The SHOCKING Truth About Leadership and Inferiority Complex with Chris Hodges

I guess I'm revealing this on the Carrie I guess I'm revealing this on the Carrie Newuhoff podcast right now is some of Newuhoff podcast right now is some of Newuhoff podcast right now is some of that comes from a little bit of an that comes from a little bit of an that comes from a little bit of an inferiority complex that I've had for my inferiority complex that I've had for my inferiority complex that I've had for my my whole life. Welcome to the Carrie New my whole life. Welcome to the Carrie New my whole life. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast on YouTube. It's Hoff leadership podcast on YouTube. It's Hoff leadership podcast on YouTube. It's Carrie here and man, today you and I are Carrie here and man, today you and I are Carrie here and man, today you and I are going to sit down with Chris Hodes and going to sit down with Chris Hodes and going to sit down with Chris Hodes and Chris is going to talk about something Chris is going to talk about something Chris is going to talk about something he's never talked about before. He leads he's never talked about before. He leads he's never talked about before. He leads one of the largest churches in America. one of the largest churches in America. one of the largest churches in America. What is it like to lead a church like What is it like to lead a church like What is it like to lead a church like that when you have an inferiority that when you have an inferiority that when you have an inferiority complex, right? He talks about being complex, right? He talks about being complex, right? He talks about being bullied, insecurity, and then we also bullied, insecurity, and then we also bullied, insecurity, and then we also talk about how to foster a successful talk about how to foster a successful talk about how to foster a successful succession. So, you can like, subscribe, succession. So, you can like, subscribe, succession. So, you can like, subscribe, and leave a comment. Uh we'd love to and leave a comment. Uh we'd love to and leave a comment. Uh we'd love to hear from you on YouTube. But first, we hear from you on YouTube. But first, we hear from you on YouTube. But first, we choose our partners really carefully choose our partners really carefully choose our partners really carefully before we jump into the conversation. before we jump into the conversation. before we jump into the conversation. Here's a word from our carefully chosen, Here's a word from our carefully chosen, Here's a word from our carefully chosen, trusted partners. Today's episode is trusted partners. Today's episode is trusted partners. Today's episode is brought to you by compassion. So, I want brought to you by compassion. So, I want brought to you by compassion. So, I want to ask you a question. Do you consider to ask you a question. Do you consider to ask you a question. Do you consider yourself a compassionate person? Like, yourself a compassionate person? Like, yourself a compassionate person? Like, does the suffering of other people does the suffering of other people does the suffering of other people actually move you to take action? Well, actually move you to take action? Well, actually move you to take action? Well, did you know that research shows a did you know that research shows a did you know that research shows a measurable link between authentic measurable link between authentic measurable link between authentic compassion and an improvement in compassion and an improvement in compassion and an improvement in personal health and professional personal health and professional personal health and professional success? In fact, data shows that success? In fact, data shows that success? In fact, data shows that ongoing acts of kindness toward others ongoing acts of kindness toward others ongoing acts of kindness toward others is directly linked to living a longer is directly linked to living a longer is directly linked to living a longer life and achieving greater professional life and achieving greater professional life and achieving greater professional success. Now, that's pretty compelling success. Now, that's pretty compelling success. Now, that's pretty compelling data and it points to something a lot data and it points to something a lot data and it points to something a lot larger than just ourselves. You know, larger than just ourselves. You know, larger than just ourselves. You know, scripture shows us many examples of scripture shows us many examples of scripture shows us many examples of God's compassion toward us, most

God's compassion toward us, most God's compassion toward us, most evidently in the life, death, and evidently in the life, death, and evidently in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. And as a pastor, resurrection of Jesus. And as a pastor, resurrection of Jesus. And as a pastor, I really want to see all people accept I really want to see all people accept I really want to see all people accept God's compassion toward us and live a God's compassion toward us and live a God's compassion toward us and live a life of gospel-driven impact as a life of gospel-driven impact as a life of gospel-driven impact as a result. So, if you also desire this, result. So, if you also desire this, result. So, if you also desire this, here's what I'd love for you to do. I'd here's what I'd love for you to do. I'd here's what I'd love for you to do. I'd encourage you to visit my friends at encourage you to visit my friends at encourage you to visit my friends at compassion international and begin compassion international and begin compassion international and begin learning how you can grow your learning how you can grow your learning how you can grow your compassion today. Find out more at compassion today. Find out more at compassion today. Find out more at compassion.com/carry. Again, that is compassion.com/carry. Again, that is compassion.com/carry. Again, that is compassion.com/carry. I'm on this compassion.com/carry. I'm on this compassion.com/carry. I'm on this mission and I'd love for you to join me, mission and I'd love for you to join me, mission and I'd love for you to join me, too. Well, welcome to today's podcast. too. Well, welcome to today's podcast. too. Well, welcome to today's podcast. Hey, before we jump into today's Hey, before we jump into today's Hey, before we jump into today's episode, I'm here for my monthly episode, I'm here for my monthly episode, I'm here for my monthly check-in with David Kinnaman, our state check-in with David Kinnaman, our state check-in with David Kinnaman, our state of the church segment, things are of the church segment, things are of the church segment, things are changing in real time. And this is part changing in real time. And this is part changing in real time. And this is part of the state of the church initiative. of the state of the church initiative. of the state of the church initiative. So, David, we got some fresh data on Gen So, David, we got some fresh data on Gen So, David, we got some fresh data on Gen Z that I'm personally really excited Z that I'm personally really excited Z that I'm personally really excited about for you to share. I'd love for you about for you to share. I'd love for you about for you to share. I'd love for you to talk about what you're seeing because to talk about what you're seeing because to talk about what you're seeing because you've done a deep dive into mental you've done a deep dive into mental you've done a deep dive into mental health issues among Gen Z, the teen, you health issues among Gen Z, the teen, you health issues among Gen Z, the teen, you know, segment of Gen Z and then young know, segment of Gen Z and then young know, segment of Gen Z and then young adult Gen Z. What are you finding? Well, adult Gen Z. What are you finding? Well, adult Gen Z. What are you finding? Well, it comes as no surprise that one of the it comes as no surprise that one of the it comes as no surprise that one of the key parts of our uh last five years has key parts of our uh last five years has key parts of our uh last five years has been a rise of mental health issues, uh been a rise of mental health issues, uh been a rise of mental health issues, uh mental health awareness, a language for mental health awareness, a language for mental health awareness, a language for mental health. I think over the last mental health. I think over the last mental health. I think over the last couple decades, there's been more and couple decades, there's been more and couple decades, there's been more and more awareness of that. It's been more awareness of that. It's been more awareness of that. It's been actually a positive trend of people actually a positive trend of people actually a positive trend of people being more comfortable talking about it.

being more comfortable talking about it. being more comfortable talking about it. It's a very therapeutically oriented It's a very therapeutically oriented It's a very therapeutically oriented generation. Um, but we're really seeing generation. Um, but we're really seeing generation. Um, but we're really seeing some of the the challenges of growing up some of the the challenges of growing up some of the the challenges of growing up today and young adults. So, Gen Z, we've today and young adults. So, Gen Z, we've today and young adults. So, Gen Z, we've done a a study called Gen Z volume 3. done a a study called Gen Z volume 3. done a a study called Gen Z volume 3. And in that study, we have a really good And in that study, we have a really good And in that study, we have a really good tale of the tape, a really good uh set tale of the tape, a really good uh set tale of the tape, a really good uh set of findings. So the the the challenges of findings. So the the the challenges of findings. So the the the challenges of young people, especially going from of young people, especially going from of young people, especially going from being a teenager to a young adult, are being a teenager to a young adult, are being a teenager to a young adult, are especially hard. So things like being especially hard. So things like being especially hard. So things like being deeply cared for by those around me, deeply cared for by those around me, deeply cared for by those around me, having someone who believes in you, my having someone who believes in you, my having someone who believes in you, my life has purpose, the positive uh life has purpose, the positive uh life has purpose, the positive uh attributes um decrease very attributes um decrease very attributes um decrease very significantly when a person crosses that significantly when a person crosses that significantly when a person crosses that threshold from 18 from 17 to 18 and into threshold from 18 from 17 to 18 and into threshold from 18 from 17 to 18 and into the young adult years. Um they also see the young adult years. Um they also see the young adult years. Um they also see an increase in being a pressure to be an increase in being a pressure to be an increase in being a pressure to be successful, anxious about important successful, anxious about important successful, anxious about important decisions, critical of myself, a need to decisions, critical of myself, a need to decisions, critical of myself, a need to be perfect, afraid to fail, overwhelmed, be perfect, afraid to fail, overwhelmed, be perfect, afraid to fail, overwhelmed, uh fear of fear of failure, um uh fear of fear of failure, um uh fear of fear of failure, um self-criticism. So lots of interesting self-criticism. So lots of interesting self-criticism. So lots of interesting findings about just the the ubiquity of findings about just the the ubiquity of findings about just the the ubiquity of mental health challenges among the next mental health challenges among the next mental health challenges among the next generation. So David, I want to ask you generation. So David, I want to ask you generation. So David, I want to ask you like, you know, we've we've parsed a lot like, you know, we've we've parsed a lot like, you know, we've we've parsed a lot of data in these conversations on this of data in these conversations on this of data in these conversations on this segment on the podcast and in other segment on the podcast and in other segment on the podcast and in other places. It almost feels like there's two places. It almost feels like there's two places. It almost feels like there's two Gen Z's. Like there's the teen version Gen Z's. Like there's the teen version Gen Z's. Like there's the teen version of Gen Z and then the adult version of of Gen Z and then the adult version of of Gen Z and then the adult version of Gen Z. So I'm just curious like it seems Gen Z. So I'm just curious like it seems Gen Z. So I'm just curious like it seems to be harder for the adult Gen Z's than to be harder for the adult Gen Z's than to be harder for the adult Gen Z's than for the teen Gen Z's. Is that fair?

for the teen Gen Z's. Is that fair? for the teen Gen Z's. Is that fair? That's exactly right. At least by virtue That's exactly right. At least by virtue That's exactly right. At least by virtue of their their self-reported um you know of their their self-reported um you know of their their self-reported um you know mental health issues. For eight ten mental health issues. For eight ten mental health issues. For eight ten years, we've been tracking the fact that years, we've been tracking the fact that years, we've been tracking the fact that Gen Z does not prioritize marriage and Gen Z does not prioritize marriage and Gen Z does not prioritize marriage and childbearing as one of the life events. childbearing as one of the life events. childbearing as one of the life events. Now, there are many Gen Zers who who are Now, there are many Gen Zers who who are Now, there are many Gen Zers who who are already targeting uh marriages and our already targeting uh marriages and our already targeting uh marriages and our parents. Um, by the way, when we think parents. Um, by the way, when we think parents. Um, by the way, when we think about millennials, they're not the kids about millennials, they're not the kids about millennials, they're not the kids anymore for sure. Gen Z, Gen Z is barely anymore for sure. Gen Z, Gen Z is barely anymore for sure. Gen Z, Gen Z is barely kids anymore. And we're starting now kids anymore. And we're starting now kids anymore. And we're starting now look even at Gen Alpha and some of the look even at Gen Alpha and some of the look even at Gen Alpha and some of the pressure points and opportunities with pressure points and opportunities with pressure points and opportunities with Gen Alpha. Yeah, but you're right. There Gen Alpha. Yeah, but you're right. There Gen Alpha. Yeah, but you're right. There is this really interesting um transition is this really interesting um transition is this really interesting um transition that Jenzers are taking from being a that Jenzers are taking from being a that Jenzers are taking from being a teen to the to a young adult. And our teen to the to a young adult. And our teen to the to a young adult. And our our research has really been focusing our research has really been focusing our research has really been focusing more and more on what are the more and more on what are the more and more on what are the interventions interventions interventions um that can be helpful. So, we've got a um that can be helpful. So, we've got a um that can be helpful. So, we've got a brand new report called Gen Z uh mental brand new report called Gen Z uh mental brand new report called Gen Z uh mental mental health and well-being and it's a mental health and well-being and it's a mental health and well-being and it's a free download at bara.com. You can check free download at bara.com. You can check free download at bara.com. You can check that out. Well, and I think the the that out. Well, and I think the the that out. Well, and I think the the lesson for me as a church leader is it's lesson for me as a church leader is it's lesson for me as a church leader is it's important not to paint with too wide a important not to paint with too wide a important not to paint with too wide a brush. that the struggles that teens are brush. that the struggles that teens are brush. that the struggles that teens are feeling right now might be somewhat feeling right now might be somewhat feeling right now might be somewhat different or show up differently with different or show up differently with different or show up differently with Gen Z adults. There's also in your Gen Z adults. There's also in your Gen Z adults. There's also in your research a bit of a difference between research a bit of a difference between research a bit of a difference between what men and women are experiencing what men and women are experiencing what men and women are experiencing mental health-wise. Is that true? It is.

mental health-wise. Is that true? It is. mental health-wise. Is that true? It is. Yeah. And so um we find that many of Yeah. And so um we find that many of Yeah. And so um we find that many of those positive outcomes that I talked those positive outcomes that I talked those positive outcomes that I talked about some of those same phrases are about some of those same phrases are about some of those same phrases are much lower rated among Gen Z women. Um much lower rated among Gen Z women. Um much lower rated among Gen Z women. Um and the negative outcomes sort of the and the negative outcomes sort of the and the negative outcomes sort of the negative self-t talk the negative um you negative self-t talk the negative um you negative self-t talk the negative um you know sort of experiences um happy with know sort of experiences um happy with know sort of experiences um happy with my appearance anxious about important my appearance anxious about important my appearance anxious about important decisions afraid to fail critical of decisions afraid to fail critical of decisions afraid to fail critical of myself and need to be perfect easily myself and need to be perfect easily myself and need to be perfect easily overwhelmed. Those are much higher among overwhelmed. Those are much higher among overwhelmed. Those are much higher among Gen Z women than among Gen Z men. And Gen Z women than among Gen Z men. And Gen Z women than among Gen Z men. And that cuts across both teenagers and uh that cuts across both teenagers and uh that cuts across both teenagers and uh young adults. And we're seeing in a lot young adults. And we're seeing in a lot young adults. And we're seeing in a lot of our data uh some of the pressures uh of our data uh some of the pressures uh of our data uh some of the pressures uh on young women and the the challenges on young women and the the challenges on young women and the the challenges that they they are are navigating. Um that they they are are navigating. Um that they they are are navigating. Um they're less likely than uh previous they're less likely than uh previous they're less likely than uh previous generations to attend church. They're generations to attend church. They're generations to attend church. They're dropping out of being volunteers at the dropping out of being volunteers at the dropping out of being volunteers at the same rate as previous generations. So, I same rate as previous generations. So, I same rate as previous generations. So, I think there's something we have to think there's something we have to think there's something we have to really slow down, pay attention to and really slow down, pay attention to and really slow down, pay attention to and listen to the the the words and listen to the the the words and listen to the the the words and experiences of young women today and experiences of young women today and experiences of young women today and some of their pressures and and you know some of their pressures and and you know some of their pressures and and you know their experiences and how it is that we their experiences and how it is that we their experiences and how it is that we can build um build better bridges uh to can build um build better bridges uh to can build um build better bridges uh to the to the women and the young women in the to the women and the young women in the to the women and the young women in our lives. Last editorial comment, our lives. Last editorial comment, our lives. Last editorial comment, David, and feel free to disagree, but David, and feel free to disagree, but David, and feel free to disagree, but this is also an opportunity for the this is also an opportunity for the this is also an opportunity for the church, right? When we see Gen Z's church, right? When we see Gen Z's church, right? When we see Gen Z's spiritual curiosity spiking, when we see spiritual curiosity spiking, when we see spiritual curiosity spiking, when we see church attendance actually going well church attendance actually going well church attendance actually going well among Gen Z, I think they're looking for among Gen Z, I think they're looking for among Gen Z, I think they're looking for an alternative to the culture and an alternative to the culture and an alternative to the culture and they're seeing, hey, this is empty. I'm they're seeing, hey, this is empty. I'm they're seeing, hey, this is empty. I'm looking for the church. So, this is looking for the church. So, this is looking for the church. So, this is something that I think is a opportunity

something that I think is a opportunity something that I think is a opportunity of a generation and part of the of a generation and part of the of a generation and part of the spiritual renewal. I I agree with that spiritual renewal. I I agree with that spiritual renewal. I I agree with that 100% and I think um the data is telling 100% and I think um the data is telling 100% and I think um the data is telling us that churches that can be emotionally us that churches that can be emotionally us that churches that can be emotionally connected to the mental health struggles connected to the mental health struggles connected to the mental health struggles provide a warm welcoming provide a warm welcoming provide a warm welcoming solutionoriented therapeutically um solutionoriented therapeutically um solutionoriented therapeutically um clear like that we we believe in therapy clear like that we we believe in therapy clear like that we we believe in therapy we believe in counseling uh we believe we believe in counseling uh we believe we believe in counseling uh we believe in the Bible we believe in the prince of in the Bible we believe in the prince of in the Bible we believe in the prince of peace uh we believe in in community um peace uh we believe in in community um peace uh we believe in in community um you know we did a big study with the you know we did a big study with the you know we did a big study with the momco on moms and found that they don't momco on moms and found that they don't momco on moms and found that they don't want more content from the church they want more content from the church they want more content from the church they community and um uh it's not that they community and um uh it's not that they community and um uh it's not that they don't receive content from churches and don't receive content from churches and don't receive content from churches and they are you know receiving it and using they are you know receiving it and using they are you know receiving it and using it but um there's a real opportunity I it but um there's a real opportunity I it but um there's a real opportunity I think to help moms become moms and women think to help moms become moms and women think to help moms become moms and women to become um renewed and refreshed in to become um renewed and refreshed in to become um renewed and refreshed in their participation and their um going their participation and their um going their participation and their um going on mission with Jesus in the lives of on mission with Jesus in the lives of on mission with Jesus in the lives of their friends um by equipping them for their friends um by equipping them for their friends um by equipping them for these courageous conversations like all these courageous conversations like all these courageous conversations like all of us as human beings have these of us as human beings have these of us as human beings have these narratives in our head And um especially narratives in our head And um especially narratives in our head And um especially for women, the research is showing us for women, the research is showing us for women, the research is showing us that they want a community to help them that they want a community to help them that they want a community to help them make sense of those narratives and of make sense of those narratives and of make sense of those narratives and of the scripts that they're given through the scripts that they're given through the scripts that they're given through social media and the world. And they social media and the world. And they social media and the world. And they want community. They want other women to want community. They want other women to want community. They want other women to help them navigate that. They don't want help them navigate that. They don't want help them navigate that. They don't want just men. And here we are, two men just men. And here we are, two men just men. And here we are, two men talking about it. Uh but I do think talking about it. Uh but I do think talking about it. Uh but I do think there's a huge huge opportunity for the there's a huge huge opportunity for the there's a huge huge opportunity for the church to pay attention to the mental church to pay attention to the mental church to pay attention to the mental health of wellbe and well-being of young health of wellbe and well-being of young health of wellbe and well-being of young people to uh listen in and to help people to uh listen in and to help people to uh listen in and to help encourage the mental health and

encourage the mental health and encourage the mental health and well-being of women. And um again well-being of women. And um again well-being of women. And um again several different topics we're talking several different topics we're talking several different topics we're talking about here today, but the church can about here today, but the church can about here today, but the church can really be an essential part of creating really be an essential part of creating really be an essential part of creating creating this gospel bridge to people creating this gospel bridge to people creating this gospel bridge to people and to their hearts. And I think this and to their hearts. And I think this and to their hearts. And I think this language of mental health is a huge language of mental health is a huge language of mental health is a huge opportunity. People are more open to opportunity. People are more open to opportunity. People are more open to talking about their interior world. uh talking about their interior world. uh talking about their interior world. uh and we're finding in the research that and we're finding in the research that and we're finding in the research that inner peace is a new apologetic. It is a inner peace is a new apologetic. It is a inner peace is a new apologetic. It is a way forward for us to talk about the way forward for us to talk about the way forward for us to talk about the truth and relevance and goodness of the truth and relevance and goodness of the truth and relevance and goodness of the gospel in our uh in our times. Well, gospel in our uh in our times. Well, gospel in our uh in our times. Well, we're bringing you this segment once a we're bringing you this segment once a we're bringing you this segment once a month because things are changing in month because things are changing in month because things are changing in real time. David, you and the Bara Group real time. David, you and the Bara Group real time. David, you and the Bara Group and Glue are doing a deep dive into and Glue are doing a deep dive into and Glue are doing a deep dive into research like you haven't done in years research like you haven't done in years research like you haven't done in years and we want you as podcast listeners to and we want you as podcast listeners to and we want you as podcast listeners to be up to the very latest. So, we're be up to the very latest. So, we're be up to the very latest. So, we're going to get to our regularly scheduled going to get to our regularly scheduled going to get to our regularly scheduled interview in just a moment. If you want interview in just a moment. If you want interview in just a moment. If you want more, and there is a lot more, go to the more, and there is a lot more, go to the more, and there is a lot more, go to the state of the church, state of the church, state of the church, stateoftheurch.com/carry. David and I stateoftheurch.com/carry. David and I stateoftheurch.com/carry. David and I will be doing this once a month, so keep will be doing this once a month, so keep will be doing this once a month, so keep an ear out for next month's episode. an ear out for next month's episode. an ear out for next month's episode. David, in the meantime, thank you. And David, in the meantime, thank you. And David, in the meantime, thank you. And now to today's regularly scheduled now to today's regularly scheduled now to today's regularly scheduled podcast. Well, Chris, I have so been podcast. Well, Chris, I have so been podcast. Well, Chris, I have so been looking forward to this conversation.

looking forward to this conversation. looking forward to this conversation. Welcome back. Thank you, Carrie. Yeah, Welcome back. Thank you, Carrie. Yeah, Welcome back. Thank you, Carrie. Yeah, so you know, this is a question. I'm so you know, this is a question. I'm so you know, this is a question. I'm sure you get it. A lot of churches are sure you get it. A lot of churches are sure you get it. A lot of churches are watching Church of the Highlands. You watching Church of the Highlands. You watching Church of the Highlands. You just went through a big transition from just went through a big transition from just went through a big transition from lead to founding pastor, right? We're lead to founding pastor, right? We're lead to founding pastor, right? We're gonna unpack that. But I would love to gonna unpack that. But I would love to gonna unpack that. But I would love to know because I get this question a lot. know because I get this question a lot. know because I get this question a lot. I'm sure you get this question a lot I'm sure you get this question a lot I'm sure you get this question a lot from leaders who are like, "How do I from leaders who are like, "How do I from leaders who are like, "How do I know when it's time to go?" And I think know when it's time to go?" And I think know when it's time to go?" And I think often there are stirrings in our hearts. often there are stirrings in our hearts. often there are stirrings in our hearts. There are shifts in what we feel. That There are shifts in what we feel. That There are shifts in what we feel. That happens sometimes months, years before happens sometimes months, years before happens sometimes months, years before we make a decision. I'd love for you to we make a decision. I'd love for you to we make a decision. I'd love for you to take us back. What were the very first take us back. What were the very first take us back. What were the very first stirrings that told you as a founding stirrings that told you as a founding stirrings that told you as a founding pastor? Ooh, this might be uh might be pastor? Ooh, this might be uh might be pastor? Ooh, this might be uh might be time soon. Yeah, I actually uh keep what time soon. Yeah, I actually uh keep what time soon. Yeah, I actually uh keep what I call uh what's called a 10-year I call uh what's called a 10-year I call uh what's called a 10-year journal. So, I'm able to do this small journal. So, I'm able to do this small journal. So, I'm able to do this small little entry and but I also get to see little entry and but I also get to see little entry and but I also get to see what I was thinking on that same day 10 what I was thinking on that same day 10 what I was thinking on that same day 10 years ago. And u and so I can I'm years ago. And u and so I can I'm years ago. And u and so I can I'm actually going through it right now. And actually going through it right now. And actually going through it right now. And the first times that I was thinking the first times that I was thinking the first times that I was thinking about, wait a minute, I I think I'm about, wait a minute, I I think I'm about, wait a minute, I I think I'm ready for somebody else to do this was ready for somebody else to do this was ready for somebody else to do this was actually just before COVID. It was in actually just before COVID. It was in actually just before COVID. It was in the early part of 2019 and honestly the early part of 2019 and honestly the early part of 2019 and honestly Carrie at that time everything was just Carrie at that time everything was just Carrie at that time everything was just hitting on all cylinders, you know, so hitting on all cylinders, you know, so hitting on all cylinders, you know, so everything's really healthy. Um I I was everything's really healthy. Um I I was everything's really healthy. Um I I was very very excited about the prospects of very very excited about the prospects of very very excited about the prospects of what could happen at Highlands College what could happen at Highlands College what could happen at Highlands College and that was just in its infancy. And uh and that was just in its infancy. And uh and that was just in its infancy. And uh same thing with uh this ministry that I same thing with uh this ministry that I same thing with uh this ministry that I have called Grow Leader where I I get to

have called Grow Leader where I I get to have called Grow Leader where I I get to coach and help and resource churches and coach and help and resource churches and coach and help and resource churches and pastors. And so I don't know if that was pastors. And so I don't know if that was pastors. And so I don't know if that was what it was all about, but I was what it was all about, but I was what it was all about, but I was definitely thinking about it 2019 and definitely thinking about it 2019 and definitely thinking about it 2019 and then COVID came and of course everything then COVID came and of course everything then COVID came and of course everything kind of tanks. And if if you know kind of tanks. And if if you know kind of tanks. And if if you know anything about, you know, uh passing anything about, you know, uh passing anything about, you know, uh passing something on to the next generation, uh something on to the next generation, uh something on to the next generation, uh you've got that whole bell curve effect. you've got that whole bell curve effect. you've got that whole bell curve effect. It cannot happen while things are in It cannot happen while things are in It cannot happen while things are in decline. And in fact, the best case decline. And in fact, the best case decline. And in fact, the best case scenario, and I and I had been reading scenario, and I and I had been reading scenario, and I and I had been reading about this for years, how companies and about this for years, how companies and about this for years, how companies and churches have done this successfully. churches have done this successfully. churches have done this successfully. everything that I read, you know, you everything that I read, you know, you everything that I read, you know, you want everything where it's going up want everything where it's going up want everything where it's going up into, you know, uh, and and healthy. And into, you know, uh, and and healthy. And into, you know, uh, and and healthy. And so, so then I actually tabled everything so, so then I actually tabled everything so, so then I actually tabled everything and thought, let me just lead through and thought, let me just lead through and thought, let me just lead through this season. Of course, none of us knew this season. Of course, none of us knew this season. Of course, none of us knew how long that was going to be. And um, how long that was going to be. And um, how long that was going to be. And um, and wanted to get the church, you know, and wanted to get the church, you know, and wanted to get the church, you know, back to I I swore I'd never say this back to I I swore I'd never say this back to I I swore I'd never say this phrase, precoid phrase, precoid phrase, precoid numbers, you know, uh, we we actually numbers, you know, uh, we we actually numbers, you know, uh, we we actually had to make a rule that we would never had to make a rule that we would never had to make a rule that we would never say that phrase again, you know, because say that phrase again, you know, because say that phrase again, you know, because we didn't want that. But anyway, but we didn't want that. But anyway, but we didn't want that. But anyway, but that's really in my mind honestly what I that's really in my mind honestly what I that's really in my mind honestly what I was doing. I was getting back to, you was doing. I was getting back to, you was doing. I was getting back to, you know, what I knew was healthy and strong know, what I knew was healthy and strong know, what I knew was healthy and strong and not just numbers of growth and and not just numbers of growth and and not just numbers of growth and things like that, but just how healthy things like that, but just how healthy things like that, but just how healthy was the staff, the finances, etc. And um was the staff, the finances, etc. And um was the staff, the finances, etc. And um and honestly, we really just got back to and honestly, we really just got back to and honestly, we really just got back to that in 2024.

that in 2024. that in 2024. And so um but continued to think about And so um but continued to think about And so um but continued to think about it, you know, of course, all throughout it, you know, of course, all throughout it, you know, of course, all throughout that season, but really didn't pick the that season, but really didn't pick the that season, but really didn't pick the ball back up until about two years ago. ball back up until about two years ago. ball back up until about two years ago. And the the real key moment, if there And the the real key moment, if there And the the real key moment, if there was a tipping point moment for me was a tipping point moment for me was a tipping point moment for me personally, it was it was when who is personally, it was it was when who is personally, it was it was when who is now our lead pastor here at Church of now our lead pastor here at Church of now our lead pastor here at Church of the Highlands came in my office and the Highlands came in my office and the Highlands came in my office and said, "Man, I hope this doesn't said, "Man, I hope this doesn't said, "Man, I hope this doesn't disappoint you." Um, and you got to disappoint you." Um, and you got to disappoint you." Um, and you got to realize this guy was was and was the realize this guy was was and was the realize this guy was was and was the president of Highlands College. And I president of Highlands College. And I president of Highlands College. And I just basically gave him that assignment. just basically gave him that assignment. just basically gave him that assignment. And he goes, "Man, I love the college, And he goes, "Man, I love the college, And he goes, "Man, I love the college, but every day I wake up with ideas about but every day I wake up with ideas about but every day I wake up with ideas about the church." And I said, "Well, that's the church." And I said, "Well, that's the church." And I said, "Well, that's very interesting because I love the very interesting because I love the very interesting because I love the church, but every day I wake up with new church, but every day I wake up with new church, but every day I wake up with new ideas about the college." And I said, ideas about the college." And I said, ideas about the college." And I said, "We need to go on a We didn't know it "We need to go on a We didn't know it "We need to go on a We didn't know it was going to be a two-year process. Um, was going to be a two-year process. Um, was going to be a two-year process. Um, but we said, "Let's go. Let's start the but we said, "Let's go. Let's start the but we said, "Let's go. Let's start the process." And I think you're the guy, I process." And I think you're the guy, I process." And I think you're the guy, I mean, I I know I'm the guy to actually mean, I I know I'm the guy to actually mean, I I know I'm the guy to actually give the next 25 years of my life to give the next 25 years of my life to give the next 25 years of my life to building this great university. I said, building this great university. I said, building this great university. I said, 'But we just got to land on the timing 'But we just got to land on the timing 'But we just got to land on the timing of all of this. And that was that was of all of this. And that was that was of all of this. And that was that was the moment really. So it actually the moment really. So it actually the moment really. So it actually happened before CO restrengthened the happened before CO restrengthened the happened before CO restrengthened the church got, you know, really put my head church got, you know, really put my head church got, you know, really put my head down and really try to get the church down and really try to get the church down and really try to get the church healthy again and but then picked the healthy again and but then picked the healthy again and but then picked the ball back up about two two and a half ball back up about two two and a half ball back up about two two and a half years ago. I think that's a very common years ago. I think that's a very common years ago. I think that's a very common sign for a lot of leaders, Chris, is sign for a lot of leaders, Chris, is sign for a lot of leaders, Chris, is that, you know, when you're founding a that, you know, when you're founding a that, you know, when you're founding a church, as you did with Church of the church, as you did with Church of the church, as you did with Church of the Highlands, you don't and can't think Highlands, you don't and can't think Highlands, you don't and can't think about anything else, right? It's like

about anything else, right? It's like about anything else, right? It's like not dreaming about a college, not not dreaming about a college, not not dreaming about a college, not thinking about a podcast. You're not thinking about a podcast. You're not thinking about a podcast. You're not doing any of that. You're just like nose doing any of that. You're just like nose doing any of that. You're just like nose to the grindstone. Go go go go go go go. to the grindstone. Go go go go go go go. to the grindstone. Go go go go go go go. But that first stirring about the But that first stirring about the But that first stirring about the college started, you say, in college started, you say, in college started, you say, in 2019 about when it when it happened. 2019 about when it when it happened. 2019 about when it when it happened. That's right. Can you dissect that a That's right. Can you dissect that a That's right. Can you dissect that a little bit more? Like what shifted? Was little bit more? Like what shifted? Was little bit more? Like what shifted? Was it just your your spare time thinking it just your your spare time thinking it just your your spare time thinking shifted more to leadership development shifted more to leadership development shifted more to leadership development than it did day-to-day ministry or what than it did day-to-day ministry or what than it did day-to-day ministry or what was it? You know, I I've said this for was it? You know, I I've said this for was it? You know, I I've said this for 10 years that if the Lord had me to stop 10 years that if the Lord had me to stop 10 years that if the Lord had me to stop doing everything I was doing, and I do I doing everything I was doing, and I do I doing everything I was doing, and I do I have my hands in several different have my hands in several different have my hands in several different places with John Maxwell, with you know, places with John Maxwell, with you know, places with John Maxwell, with you know, church planting that if the Lord made me church planting that if the Lord made me church planting that if the Lord made me stop doing everything I was doing and I stop doing everything I was doing and I stop doing everything I was doing and I could only do one thing the rest of my could only do one thing the rest of my could only do one thing the rest of my life, I I would raise up the next life, I I would raise up the next life, I I would raise up the next generation of young leaders. I have said generation of young leaders. I have said generation of young leaders. I have said that publicly on stage and I've told the that publicly on stage and I've told the that publicly on stage and I've told the church, I hope this doesn't hurt your church, I hope this doesn't hurt your church, I hope this doesn't hurt your feelings. The Lord's not asking this of feelings. The Lord's not asking this of feelings. The Lord's not asking this of me, but if he did, um, this is what I me, but if he did, um, this is what I me, but if he did, um, this is what I this is where the wind is in my sales.

this is where the wind is in my sales. this is where the wind is in my sales. This is where this is where I what I This is where this is where I what I This is where this is where I what I know I was created to do. And honestly, know I was created to do. And honestly, know I was created to do. And honestly, Carrie, that thought is is why our Carrie, that thought is is why our Carrie, that thought is is why our church has such a healthy, we don't use church has such a healthy, we don't use church has such a healthy, we don't use this word, volunteer culture, cuz I've this word, volunteer culture, cuz I've this word, volunteer culture, cuz I've always believed in that that I shouldn't always believed in that that I shouldn't always believed in that that I shouldn't be building this around me and my be building this around me and my be building this around me and my personality that some of the best ideas personality that some of the best ideas personality that some of the best ideas of the church would be in the people of of the church would be in the people of of the church would be in the people of the church. I needed to I needed to the church. I needed to I needed to the church. I needed to I needed to discover their gifting and their calling discover their gifting and their calling discover their gifting and their calling and and raise up what we call the dream and and raise up what we call the dream and and raise up what we call the dream team. And it for us it's you know it's team. And it for us it's you know it's team. And it for us it's you know it's more than 22,000 people who are actively more than 22,000 people who are actively more than 22,000 people who are actively involved in a ministry in a serving involved in a ministry in a serving involved in a ministry in a serving opportunity that they discovered through opportunity that they discovered through opportunity that they discovered through our growth track. And and I've always our growth track. And and I've always our growth track. And and I've always just felt that that's what it's supposed just felt that that's what it's supposed just felt that that's what it's supposed to look like. And then of course you to look like. And then of course you to look like. And then of course you know for for 24 years we've been know for for 24 years we've been know for for 24 years we've been training several you know thousands and training several you know thousands and training several you know thousands and thousands of of church planters and then thousands of of church planters and then thousands of of church planters and then getting behind some of them and helping getting behind some of them and helping getting behind some of them and helping them have their first Sunday. And then them have their first Sunday. And then them have their first Sunday. And then of course with what we do with grow of course with what we do with grow of course with what we do with grow leader in the college, I've always had leader in the college, I've always had leader in the college, I've always had this and this is not some kind of false this and this is not some kind of false this and this is not some kind of false humility. I never really really wanted humility. I never really really wanted humility. I never really really wanted it all to be about me. I really wanted it all to be about me. I really wanted it all to be about me. I really wanted to give my life away to the lives of to give my life away to the lives of to give my life away to the lives of others. And um and something that no one others. And um and something that no one others. And um and something that no one really knows, and I'm I guess I'm really knows, and I'm I guess I'm really knows, and I'm I guess I'm revealing this on the Carrie New Hoff revealing this on the Carrie New Hoff revealing this on the Carrie New Hoff podcast right now, is some of that comes podcast right now, is some of that comes podcast right now, is some of that comes from a little bit of an inferiority from a little bit of an inferiority from a little bit of an inferiority complex that I've had for my my whole complex that I've had for my my whole complex that I've had for my my whole life. and that I think in some weird way life. and that I think in some weird way life. and that I think in some weird way the Lord has used that um to not make it the Lord has used that um to not make it the Lord has used that um to not make it all about me, you know, and um because

all about me, you know, and um because all about me, you know, and um because I've just I I I still struggle even 41 I've just I I I still struggle even 41 I've just I I I still struggle even 41 years later of ministry getting on stage years later of ministry getting on stage years later of ministry getting on stage and and I I've never thought, man, I'm and and I I've never thought, man, I'm and and I I've never thought, man, I'm the man for the hour. I've got the word, the man for the hour. I've got the word, the man for the hour. I've got the word, you know, I've just I'm I'm actually you know, I've just I'm I'm actually you know, I've just I'm I'm actually over there saying, Lord, please come over there saying, Lord, please come over there saying, Lord, please come with me. Help me. You know, I'm nothing with me. Help me. You know, I'm nothing with me. Help me. You know, I'm nothing without you. And so, um so I don't know. without you. And so, um so I don't know. without you. And so, um so I don't know. So, it was it wasn't as hard for me as So, it was it wasn't as hard for me as So, it was it wasn't as hard for me as you might imagine is what I'm trying to you might imagine is what I'm trying to you might imagine is what I'm trying to say. Well, first of all, thank you so say. Well, first of all, thank you so say. Well, first of all, thank you so much for sharing that. You know, that's much for sharing that. You know, that's much for sharing that. You know, that's a term I love my dad. He just turned 85, a term I love my dad. He just turned 85, a term I love my dad. He just turned 85, but he would tell me that when I was but he would tell me that when I was but he would tell me that when I was growing up, that he had an inferiority growing up, that he had an inferiority growing up, that he had an inferiority complex. And I think I think you're complex. And I think I think you're complex. And I think I think you're right, Chris. Like a lot of us, you right, Chris. Like a lot of us, you right, Chris. Like a lot of us, you know, on the one end of the spectrum is know, on the one end of the spectrum is know, on the one end of the spectrum is narcissism. I think I'm pretty awesome. narcissism. I think I'm pretty awesome. narcissism. I think I'm pretty awesome. On the other hand is is this sense of On the other hand is is this sense of On the other hand is is this sense of inadequacy. How how did inadequacy. How how did inadequacy. How how did that show up in your life and then how that show up in your life and then how that show up in your life and then how did it show up in your ministry? did it show up in your ministry? did it show up in your ministry? Well, uh you know I actually Well, uh you know I actually Well, uh you know I actually uh I was bullied when I was in junior uh I was bullied when I was in junior uh I was bullied when I was in junior high and when I got into high school and high and when I got into high school and high and when I got into high school and college years I was a C student on my college years I was a C student on my college years I was a C student on my best day. I was never the smartest guy.

best day. I was never the smartest guy. best day. I was never the smartest guy. The only place where I was very very The only place where I was very very The only place where I was very very talented is I was a cla I am a classical talented is I was a cla I am a classical talented is I was a cla I am a classical pianist. I did not know that. Yeah. I pianist. I did not know that. Yeah. I pianist. I did not know that. Yeah. I could I was I was my dad was a fantastic could I was I was my dad was a fantastic could I was I was my dad was a fantastic musician. He played pipe organs. He musician. He played pipe organs. He musician. He played pipe organs. He could do more with his feet than I could could do more with his feet than I could could do more with his feet than I could do with my hands. He was so I was raised do with my hands. He was so I was raised do with my hands. He was so I was raised in this classical music um home and um in this classical music um home and um in this classical music um home and um and so from very very young I was taking and so from very very young I was taking and so from very very young I was taking piano lessons. You know in my adolescent piano lessons. You know in my adolescent piano lessons. You know in my adolescent teenage years you know you could put any teenage years you know you could put any teenage years you know you could put any anything you put in front of me I could anything you put in front of me I could anything you put in front of me I could have played. Went on to teach piano. Uh, have played. Went on to teach piano. Uh, have played. Went on to teach piano. Uh, of course I was really motivated to of course I was really motivated to of course I was really motivated to teach piano when I was a youth pastor teach piano when I was a youth pastor teach piano when I was a youth pastor because I could wasn't making enough because I could wasn't making enough because I could wasn't making enough money to live. So I actually had piano money to live. So I actually had piano money to live. So I actually had piano students um, you know, all throughout students um, you know, all throughout students um, you know, all throughout early ministry years. And so I've been early ministry years. And so I've been early ministry years. And so I've been doing music. I did music in the church doing music. I did music in the church doing music. I did music in the church before Highlands. I was the worship before Highlands. I was the worship before Highlands. I was the worship leader for our church the first four leader for our church the first four leader for our church the first four years of our church, you know. So I I years of our church, you know. So I I years of our church, you know. So I I did both roles which was uh not not did both roles which was uh not not did both roles which was uh not not necessarily the right way to do it. But necessarily the right way to do it. But necessarily the right way to do it. But um I still produce our Christmas um u um I still produce our Christmas um u um I still produce our Christmas um u experience that we have every year. And experience that we have every year. And experience that we have every year. And so um so yeah, that's that's the one so um so yeah, that's that's the one so um so yeah, that's that's the one thing I was good at was was was music.

thing I was good at was was was music. thing I was good at was was was music. And but uh I always felt inferior when I And but uh I always felt inferior when I And but uh I always felt inferior when I got up on stage to speak. I was always got up on stage to speak. I was always got up on stage to speak. I was always thinking there was there are people out thinking there was there are people out thinking there was there are people out there that a whole lot smarter than me. there that a whole lot smarter than me. there that a whole lot smarter than me. And I mean, for years, Carrie, I had I And I mean, for years, Carrie, I had I And I mean, for years, Carrie, I had I had 2 Corinthians chapter 3 um on my had 2 Corinthians chapter 3 um on my had 2 Corinthians chapter 3 um on my mirror in my bathroom that says, "I'm mirror in my bathroom that says, "I'm mirror in my bathroom that says, "I'm competent as a minister of the new competent as a minister of the new competent as a minister of the new covenant, not because of the letter of covenant, not because of the letter of covenant, not because of the letter of the law, but but because of the spirit the law, but but because of the spirit the law, but but because of the spirit of God in me. For the letter kills and of God in me. For the letter kills and of God in me. For the letter kills and the spirit gives life." And it was my the spirit gives life." And it was my the spirit gives life." And it was my reminder like there's a whole lot of reminder like there's a whole lot of reminder like there's a whole lot of people out there that have better people out there that have better people out there that have better training, degrees, training, degrees, training, degrees, brains, but God picked me. I I tell brains, but God picked me. I I tell brains, but God picked me. I I tell myself that every day. God's picked me. myself that every day. God's picked me. myself that every day. God's picked me. And um and I was that was my way of And um and I was that was my way of And um and I was that was my way of talking myself into having the courage talking myself into having the courage talking myself into having the courage to go out there and go on stage. For to go out there and go on stage. For to go out there and go on stage. For heaven's sakes, I failed my speech class heaven's sakes, I failed my speech class heaven's sakes, I failed my speech class at LSU. Wow. So think about that. I mean at LSU. Wow. So think about that. I mean at LSU. Wow. So think about that. I mean and and they don't even really speak and and they don't even really speak and and they don't even really speak English at LSU. You know what I'm English at LSU. You know what I'm English at LSU. You know what I'm saying? saying? saying? So I mean I mean I was so intimidated to So I mean I mean I was so intimidated to So I mean I mean I was so intimidated to be in front of of just a small class of be in front of of just a small class of be in front of of just a small class of 30 people to give a speech, you know, 30 people to give a speech, you know, 30 people to give a speech, you know, and so so I that I carried that with me and so so I that I carried that with me and so so I that I carried that with me all all these years and and now I all all these years and and now I all all these years and and now I recognize that honestly I'm not a C recognize that honestly I'm not a C recognize that honestly I'm not a C student from Louisiana. I've actually student from Louisiana. I've actually student from Louisiana. I've actually I've learned some things. My brain kind I've learned some things. My brain kind I've learned some things. My brain kind of turned on in in my late late 20s, of turned on in in my late late 20s, of turned on in in my late late 20s, early 30s and like a lot of things made early 30s and like a lot of things made early 30s and like a lot of things made sense to me. Actually went back and sense to me. Actually went back and sense to me. Actually went back and finished my business degree and was a finished my business degree and was a finished my business degree and was a 4.0 student. So, but I still struggled 4.0 student. So, but I still struggled 4.0 student. So, but I still struggled with this inferiority uh complex and and with this inferiority uh complex and and with this inferiority uh complex and and in some weird way I think the Lord used in some weird way I think the Lord used in some weird way I think the Lord used that. You know, Moses felt that way of that. You know, Moses felt that way of that. You know, Moses felt that way of himself. He I'm I stutter. I'm you know,

himself. He I'm I stutter. I'm you know, himself. He I'm I stutter. I'm you know, I'm He called himself the meakest man on I'm He called himself the meakest man on I'm He called himself the meakest man on on on earth, you know. So, I don't know. on on earth, you know. So, I don't know. on on earth, you know. So, I don't know. Um but I but uh I don't think narcissism Um but I but uh I don't think narcissism Um but I but uh I don't think narcissism is something that uh has ever um you is something that uh has ever um you is something that uh has ever um you know been an issue for me. In fact, I know been an issue for me. In fact, I know been an issue for me. In fact, I I've been uncomfortable with the I've been uncomfortable with the I've been uncomfortable with the notoriety. There are there are so many notoriety. There are there are so many notoriety. There are there are so many days that I I would have much preferred days that I I would have much preferred days that I I would have much preferred just not been been known, you know, just not been been known, you know, just not been been known, you know, being a local pastor, church that in being a local pastor, church that in being a local pastor, church that in fact um you know, in fact, uh the the fact um you know, in fact, uh the the fact um you know, in fact, uh the the the plan B of not coming to Birmingham the plan B of not coming to Birmingham the plan B of not coming to Birmingham was to go to a very very small town was to go to a very very small town was to go to a very very small town where all my relatives are buried in where all my relatives are buried in where all my relatives are buried in North Louisiana. And and I would have North Louisiana. And and I would have North Louisiana. And and I would have fished a lot, ate a lot of watermelon, fished a lot, ate a lot of watermelon, fished a lot, ate a lot of watermelon, and had a great, you know, small church. and had a great, you know, small church. and had a great, you know, small church. I mean, so I mean, you know, so that I mean, so I mean, you know, so that I mean, so I mean, you know, so that that people don't know that was what I that people don't know that was what I that people don't know that was what I was going to do if I didn't come to was going to do if I didn't come to was going to do if I didn't come to Birmingham. Birmingham. Birmingham. You know, I love it when leaders are You know, I love it when leaders are You know, I love it when leaders are open and transparent about their open and transparent about their open and transparent about their journey. So, thank you so much for doing journey. So, thank you so much for doing journey. So, thank you so much for doing that. You are not the only person. You that. You are not the only person. You that. You are not the only person. You know, there's so many listeners who are know, there's so many listeners who are know, there's so many listeners who are like, "Hey, I was bullied, too. I mean, like, "Hey, I was bullied, too. I mean, like, "Hey, I was bullied, too. I mean, I had red hair, so that's never a lot of I had red hair, so that's never a lot of I had red hair, so that's never a lot of fun when you were a kid. Uh, I'm an fun when you were a kid. Uh, I'm an fun when you were a kid. Uh, I'm an enagram 8. So, that was my last enagram 8. So, that was my last enagram 8. So, that was my last schoolyard fight. Somebody called me schoolyard fight. Somebody called me schoolyard fight. Somebody called me rooster and I pummeled him to the rooster and I pummeled him to the rooster and I pummeled him to the ground. Uh, not not my proudest moment ground. Uh, not not my proudest moment ground. Uh, not not my proudest moment in elementary school.

in elementary school. in elementary school. How, but that does that does leave an How, but that does that does leave an How, but that does that does leave an impact, right? What kids do to us in impact, right? What kids do to us in impact, right? What kids do to us in junior high. How did junior high. How did junior high. How did that scar you slashshape you as a person that scar you slashshape you as a person that scar you slashshape you as a person and as a leader? that experience of and as a leader? that experience of and as a leader? that experience of being bullied when you were younger, being bullied when you were younger, being bullied when you were younger, Chris? You know, honestly, it didn't Chris? You know, honestly, it didn't Chris? You know, honestly, it didn't scar me at all. It um it it just it just scar me at all. It um it it just it just scar me at all. It um it it just it just I had to find confidence in other places I had to find confidence in other places I had to find confidence in other places other than a n, you know, a big physique other than a n, you know, a big physique other than a n, you know, a big physique or a you know, a lot of talent or or a you know, a lot of talent or or a you know, a lot of talent or something like that or brains, you know, something like that or brains, you know, something like that or brains, you know, and that's actually why I started grow and that's actually why I started grow and that's actually why I started grow leader because I could not rest on my leader because I could not rest on my leader because I could not rest on my own personality and ability to grow a own personality and ability to grow a own personality and ability to grow a church. I did two things. I found proven church. I did two things. I found proven church. I did two things. I found proven models. So, I was the guy that was going models. So, I was the guy that was going models. So, I was the guy that was going to find out how how somebody else to find out how how somebody else to find out how how somebody else figured out how to do it and just was figured out how to do it and just was figured out how to do it and just was bringing it back to us. I didn't I bringing it back to us. I didn't I bringing it back to us. I didn't I didn't create anything. I mean, I could didn't create anything. I mean, I could didn't create anything. I mean, I could take you around Church of the Highlands take you around Church of the Highlands take you around Church of the Highlands and tell you where I learned that who and tell you where I learned that who and tell you where I learned that who who did that better than us and how I who did that better than us and how I who did that better than us and how I just discovered it and brought it back just discovered it and brought it back just discovered it and brought it back and pulled it all together. And then the and pulled it all together. And then the and pulled it all together. And then the second thing I had, I I call it models second thing I had, I I call it models second thing I had, I I call it models and mentors. I had people coming and mentors. I had people coming and mentors. I had people coming alongside me and saying, "I believe in alongside me and saying, "I believe in alongside me and saying, "I believe in you. I'm going to help you." and speak you. I'm going to help you." and speak you. I'm going to help you." and speak honestly with me. I mean, I had I had my honestly with me. I mean, I had I had my honestly with me. I mean, I had I had my father-in-law who worked on my attitude father-in-law who worked on my attitude father-in-law who worked on my attitude for years. He told me, "You have one of for years. He told me, "You have one of for years. He told me, "You have one of the worst attitudes of anybody." Like, the worst attitudes of anybody." Like, the worst attitudes of anybody." Like, "Well, how so?" What was I said, "Help "Well, how so?" What was I said, "Help "Well, how so?" What was I said, "Help me." I said, "Well, I do now." You know, me." I said, "Well, I do now." You know, me." I said, "Well, I do now." You know, since you brought it up. Um, and then, since you brought it up. Um, and then, since you brought it up. Um, and then, you know, I've had the fortune of having you know, I've had the fortune of having you know, I've had the fortune of having people like John Maxwell, you know, help

people like John Maxwell, you know, help people like John Maxwell, you know, help me with my very first book to in writing me with my very first book to in writing me with my very first book to in writing and just because I I I again made D's in and just because I I I again made D's in and just because I I I again made D's in English. So here I am thinking I can English. So here I am thinking I can English. So here I am thinking I can write a book, you know, and so but what write a book, you know, and so but what write a book, you know, and so but what I did what I what I am perhaps good at I did what I what I am perhaps good at I did what I what I am perhaps good at is that I was able to I I'm I'm an is that I was able to I I'm I'm an is that I was able to I I'm I'm an incessant learner and and I I'm I love incessant learner and and I I'm I love incessant learner and and I I'm I love best practices and I love pulling all best practices and I love pulling all best practices and I love pulling all those all those together. And that's those all those together. And that's those all those together. And that's what actually gave me the confidence to what actually gave me the confidence to what actually gave me the confidence to be able to teach pastors because I could be able to teach pastors because I could be able to teach pastors because I could say, look, I did it. You know, I I I am say, look, I did it. You know, I I I am say, look, I did it. You know, I I I am not a great preacher. I'm not real not a great preacher. I'm not real not a great preacher. I'm not real talented but I was able to pull together talented but I was able to pull together talented but I was able to pull together these things and um and being instead of these things and um and being instead of these things and um and being instead of personality dependent being systems personality dependent being systems personality dependent being systems dependent uh which is what in my opinion dependent uh which is what in my opinion dependent uh which is what in my opinion great all great organizations actually great all great organizations actually great all great organizations actually do they don't rest on the personality of do they don't rest on the personality of do they don't rest on the personality of their leader they rest on the their leader they rest on the their leader they rest on the dependability of systems that actually dependability of systems that actually dependability of systems that actually work what what did your father-in-law work what what did your father-in-law work what what did your father-in-law want to adjust in your attitude in the want to adjust in your attitude in the want to adjust in your attitude in the early days he just wanted to be more early days he just wanted to be more early days he just wanted to be more positive so I'm I'm I'm critical I think positive so I'm I'm I'm critical I think positive so I'm I'm I'm critical I think in a healthy way and and of course I in a healthy way and and of course I in a healthy way and and of course I think it is healthy, right? So I'd love think it is healthy, right? So I'd love think it is healthy, right? So I'd love to find things um that can be tweaked or to find things um that can be tweaked or to find things um that can be tweaked or made better and I'm always pointing that made better and I'm always pointing that made better and I'm always pointing that out where you know Billy Hornsby uh he's out where you know Billy Hornsby uh he's out where you know Billy Hornsby uh he's with the Lord now but he he could walk with the Lord now but he he could walk with the Lord now but he he could walk in the room and own the room in a minute in the room and own the room in a minute in the room and own the room in a minute and just everybody loved him and I had and just everybody loved him and I had and just everybody loved him and I had learned that stories never met him but learned that stories never met him but learned that stories never met him but he's legend. if you if you would have he's legend. if you if you would have he's legend. if you if you would have met him, you would say, "Uh, oh, no, we met him, you would say, "Uh, oh, no, we met him, you would say, "Uh, oh, no, we were best friends." I mean, and he liked were best friends." I mean, and he liked were best friends." I mean, and he liked me more than anybody else. And he just me more than anybody else. And he just me more than anybody else. And he just had that ability to do that. And I'm not had that ability to do that. And I'm not had that ability to do that. And I'm not still anywhere close to where he was,

still anywhere close to where he was, still anywhere close to where he was, but I'm but thank God, I'm nowhere near but I'm but thank God, I'm nowhere near but I'm but thank God, I'm nowhere near where I was um because I had people come where I was um because I had people come where I was um because I had people come alongside me and mentor me and I had alongside me and mentor me and I had alongside me and mentor me and I had healthy models of ways to do church and healthy models of ways to do church and healthy models of ways to do church and ways to do life and marriage and money ways to do life and marriage and money ways to do life and marriage and money that I just adopted and learned how to that I just adopted and learned how to that I just adopted and learned how to do and put them into practice and and do and put them into practice and and do and put them into practice and and here we are, you know. You know, I I here we are, you know. You know, I I here we are, you know. You know, I I have in the time that we've spent have in the time that we've spent have in the time that we've spent together, I've appreciated what I would together, I've appreciated what I would together, I've appreciated what I would call a groundedness. I think you take call a groundedness. I think you take call a groundedness. I think you take the work really seriously. You don't the work really seriously. You don't the work really seriously. You don't strike me as somebody who takes yourself strike me as somebody who takes yourself strike me as somebody who takes yourself too seriously. Like, look at me. Here I too seriously. Like, look at me. Here I too seriously. Like, look at me. Here I am. I' I'd love, you know, because you am. I' I'd love, you know, because you am. I' I'd love, you know, because you have one of the most prominent churches have one of the most prominent churches have one of the most prominent churches in America that you founded. Definitely in America that you founded. Definitely in America that you founded. Definitely one of the largest, the very one of the largest, the very one of the largest, the very largest. Yeah, you've it seems to me largest. Yeah, you've it seems to me largest. Yeah, you've it seems to me you've never really pursued social media you've never really pursued social media you've never really pursued social media as a goal. Uh I was just checking while as a goal. Uh I was just checking while as a goal. Uh I was just checking while you were talking, you have 146,000 you were talking, you have 146,000 you were talking, you have 146,000 followers, which is awesome, but someone followers, which is awesome, but someone followers, which is awesome, but someone of a church that size who was going of a church that size who was going of a church that size who was going after a platform might have 500,000 or after a platform might have 500,000 or after a platform might have 500,000 or million or that kind of thing. What is million or that kind of thing. What is million or that kind of thing. What is your view of social media? And I'd love your view of social media? And I'd love your view of social media? And I'd love I'd love your take.

I'd love your take. I'd love your take. I honestly don't think about it for a I honestly don't think about it for a I honestly don't think about it for a second because I mean not even for a second because I mean not even for a second because I mean not even for a second and second and second and so never tried to pursue it can't so never tried to pursue it can't so never tried to pursue it can't honestly don't even like it at all you honestly don't even like it at all you honestly don't even like it at all you know so u I do know it's important and know so u I do know it's important and know so u I do know it's important and so I have accounts and my so I have accounts and my so I have accounts and my daughter-in-law is actually the one who daughter-in-law is actually the one who daughter-in-law is actually the one who manages my account so for me so it she manages my account so for me so it she manages my account so for me so it she she's good at it I think but yeah that's she's good at it I think but yeah that's she's good at it I think but yeah that's it's it it would be at the very bottom it's it it would be at the very bottom it's it it would be at the very bottom of the list of the things that I'm of the list of the things that I'm of the list of the things that I'm thinking about. Do you know why that is? thinking about. Do you know why that is? thinking about. Do you know why that is? Uh, I don't know. I just I don't like Uh, I don't know. I just I don't like Uh, I don't know. I just I don't like the premise of it. I don't think any I the premise of it. I don't think any I the premise of it. I don't think any I don't think any part of it is actually don't think any part of it is actually don't think any part of it is actually social. Um, I think it's actually social. Um, I think it's actually social. Um, I think it's actually antisocial. It allows somebody to I antisocial. It allows somebody to I antisocial. It allows somebody to I don't even know to have a voice into my don't even know to have a voice into my don't even know to have a voice into my world. I I don't even like the fact world. I I don't even like the fact world. I I don't even like the fact that, you know, whatever size of the that, you know, whatever size of the that, you know, whatever size of the platform, I guess mine's platform, I guess mine's platform, I guess mine's 146,000. You know, that somebody else 146,000. You know, that somebody else 146,000. You know, that somebody else who I don't even know can come and have who I don't even know can come and have who I don't even know can come and have a voice into that, you know, that would a voice into that, you know, that would a voice into that, you know, that would be like it feels like to me like having be like it feels like to me like having be like it feels like to me like having a church service and then we just decide a church service and then we just decide a church service and then we just decide to pass the mic around and let everybody to pass the mic around and let everybody to pass the mic around and let everybody give their take on this. You we'd never give their take on this. You we'd never give their take on this. You we'd never do that, right? And uh yet we do but yet do that, right? And uh yet we do but yet do that, right? And uh yet we do but yet we do that with this world. And I think we do that with this world. And I think we do that with this world. And I think it's toxic in many ways and certainly it's toxic in many ways and certainly it's toxic in many ways and certainly not always representative of of of not always representative of of of not always representative of of of truth. People put on their best, you truth. People put on their best, you truth. People put on their best, you know, they put on their their Instagram know, they put on their their Instagram know, they put on their their Instagram smile or whatever. I don't know. I think smile or whatever. I don't know. I think smile or whatever. I don't know. I think it, you know, I but I do see the value it, you know, I but I do see the value it, you know, I but I do see the value in getting communication out and and in getting communication out and and in getting communication out and and things like that. So, we have accounts, things like that. So, we have accounts, things like that. So, we have accounts, you know, we do we we do it. I would

you know, we do we we do it. I would you know, we do we we do it. I would imagine. Okay. No, I'm not going to read imagine. Okay. No, I'm not going to read imagine. Okay. No, I'm not going to read into this. Let me ask you an open into this. Let me ask you an open into this. Let me ask you an open question. question. question. How hard was it for you not to be the How hard was it for you not to be the How hard was it for you not to be the lead pastor of Church of the Highlands? lead pastor of Church of the Highlands? lead pastor of Church of the Highlands? Well, we're we're only a few days into Well, we're we're only a few days into Well, we're we're only a few days into it and it just it feels like something it and it just it feels like something it and it just it feels like something I've been preparing for my whole life. I've been preparing for my whole life. I've been preparing for my whole life. So, it's it's there's nothing about it So, it's it's there's nothing about it So, it's it's there's nothing about it is hard. Uh and this is the best is hard. Uh and this is the best is hard. Uh and this is the best metaphor that describes how I feel and metaphor that describes how I feel and metaphor that describes how I feel and that is I'm still in the family. I just that is I'm still in the family. I just that is I'm still in the family. I just have a different role. And that's what's have a different role. And that's what's have a different role. And that's what's happening in my natural biological life happening in my natural biological life happening in my natural biological life as well. Right? So, um, my wife and I as well. Right? So, um, my wife and I as well. Right? So, um, my wife and I had five kids. Um, they are, um, in had five kids. Um, they are, um, in had five kids. Um, they are, um, in their 30s and late 20s now, and they all their 30s and late 20s now, and they all their 30s and late 20s now, and they all are building their own families. And, are building their own families. And, are building their own families. And, you know, thank God Tammy's never going you know, thank God Tammy's never going you know, thank God Tammy's never going to get pregnant again. to get pregnant again. to get pregnant again. At least that's that's the hope right At least that's that's the hope right At least that's that's the hope right now. And um, and so we had this season now. And um, and so we had this season now. And um, and so we had this season where we were producing kids, right? We where we were producing kids, right? We where we were producing kids, right? We were training kids. We were doing were training kids. We were doing were training kids. We were doing homework. We were driving to school.

homework. We were driving to school. homework. We were driving to school. were going to there's a there was a were going to there's a there was a were going to there's a there was a season of my life where it's all season of my life where it's all season of my life where it's all about raising kids and producing kids. about raising kids and producing kids. about raising kids and producing kids. We were having them and we were We were having them and we were We were having them and we were discipling them. And then you go through discipling them. And then you go through discipling them. And then you go through a season of life where you release your a season of life where you release your a season of life where you release your your kids to go have kids and build your kids to go have kids and build your kids to go have kids and build their families. And I'm still in the their families. And I'm still in the their families. And I'm still in the family. In fact, I'm a prominent part of family. In fact, I'm a prominent part of family. In fact, I'm a prominent part of the family. I've just taken on a the family. I've just taken on a the family. I've just taken on a different role as grandfather and we're different role as grandfather and we're different role as grandfather and we're called Papa and Honey. And they're over called Papa and Honey. And they're over called Papa and Honey. And they're over sometimes five nights a week. And um and sometimes five nights a week. And um and sometimes five nights a week. And um and but the role has changed. Uh I have two but the role has changed. Uh I have two but the role has changed. Uh I have two things that I didn't have in my 20s and things that I didn't have in my 20s and things that I didn't have in my 20s and that has a little bit more money than I that has a little bit more money than I that has a little bit more money than I did in my 20s. Thank God. Yeah. And that did in my 20s. Thank God. Yeah. And that did in my 20s. Thank God. Yeah. And that I have a whole lot more wisdom. And now I have a whole lot more wisdom. And now I have a whole lot more wisdom. And now I'm able to bless them financially in I'm able to bless them financially in I'm able to bless them financially in areas that I could I couldn't even do areas that I could I couldn't even do areas that I could I couldn't even do when I was in my 20s. And I'm able to when I was in my 20s. And I'm able to when I was in my 20s. And I'm able to share advice with them. But I'm also share advice with them. But I'm also share advice with them. But I'm also grateful that they go home at night grateful that they go home at night grateful that they go home at night about 9 9:30 when we say, "Okay, well about 9 9:30 when we say, "Okay, well about 9 9:30 when we say, "Okay, well it's getting late. You guys going home, it's getting late. You guys going home, it's getting late. You guys going home, right?" And and uh and I'm loving we right?" And and uh and I'm loving we right?" And and uh and I'm loving we love our season as grandfather. That's love our season as grandfather. That's love our season as grandfather. That's exactly how I feel in the church right exactly how I feel in the church right exactly how I feel in the church right now. I still want to be in the family. I now. I still want to be in the family. I now. I still want to be in the family. I still want to be valued. Uh I have I still want to be valued. Uh I have I still want to be valued. Uh I have I have I'm I'm I'm wealthier in many ways.

have I'm I'm I'm wealthier in many ways. have I'm I'm I'm wealthier in many ways. Not I'm I'm not talking about Not I'm I'm not talking about Not I'm I'm not talking about financially. I'm just but I'm wealthier financially. I'm just but I'm wealthier financially. I'm just but I'm wealthier in many ways. I have wisdom that I can in many ways. I have wisdom that I can in many ways. I have wisdom that I can give you. But it's it's it's okay for give you. But it's it's it's okay for give you. But it's it's it's okay for the kids to have kids. It's time for the the kids to have kids. It's time for the the kids to have kids. It's time for the next generation to produce children. And next generation to produce children. And next generation to produce children. And uh and that's the way I see it. I I uh and that's the way I see it. I I uh and that's the way I see it. I I really believe that. I really feel like really believe that. I really feel like really believe that. I really feel like churches like ours should be led by churches like ours should be led by churches like ours should be led by people who have kids in their home. Uh, people who have kids in their home. Uh, people who have kids in their home. Uh, I think they'll relate to the generation I think they'll relate to the generation I think they'll relate to the generation that's I don't even get the culture that's I don't even get the culture that's I don't even get the culture right now, Carrie. I there's nothing right now, Carrie. I there's nothing right now, Carrie. I there's nothing about it that makes sense to me. You're about it that makes sense to me. You're about it that makes sense to me. You're so good at understanding the trends and so good at understanding the trends and so good at understanding the trends and how people are thinking right now. Okay. how people are thinking right now. Okay. how people are thinking right now. Okay. Yeah. But none of it makes sense to me. Yeah. But none of it makes sense to me. Yeah. But none of it makes sense to me. None of it makes so and and it's like I None of it makes so and and it's like I None of it makes so and and it's like I don't even want to mess around with AI, don't even want to mess around with AI, don't even want to mess around with AI, right? Like it doesn't even it doesn't right? Like it doesn't even it doesn't right? Like it doesn't even it doesn't even appeal to me. Everybody wants to even appeal to me. Everybody wants to even appeal to me. Everybody wants to know what I think about it. It's like I know what I think about it. It's like I know what I think about it. It's like I don't want to think about it. You I want don't want to think about it. You I want don't want to think about it. You I want somebody else to think about it. So, but somebody else to think about it. So, but somebody else to think about it. So, but yet the the the generation that we've yet the the the generation that we've yet the the the generation that we've passed this church off to totally gets passed this church off to totally gets passed this church off to totally gets all of that. It makes so much sense for all of that. It makes so much sense for all of that. It makes so much sense for them. Why? Because it's their turn to them. Why? Because it's their turn to them. Why? Because it's their turn to have kids. And I don't want to leave the have kids. And I don't want to leave the have kids. And I don't want to leave the family. I don't want to retire. Nothing family. I don't want to retire. Nothing family. I don't want to retire. Nothing in me wants to retire. I I still want to in me wants to retire. I I still want to in me wants to retire. I I still want to be in the family. I just want to play a be in the family. I just want to play a be in the family. I just want to play a different role. So, we talked about an different role. So, we talked about an different role. So, we talked about an inferiority complex. And, you know, I inferiority complex. And, you know, I inferiority complex. And, you know, I think a lot of us leaders listening can think a lot of us leaders listening can think a lot of us leaders listening can relate to the insecurity. I've talked relate to the insecurity. I've talked relate to the insecurity. I've talked about my own insecurity and everything, about my own insecurity and everything, about my own insecurity and everything, but it also strikes me, Chris, things but it also strikes me, Chris, things but it also strikes me, Chris, things change over time. It takes a lot of change over time. It takes a lot of change over time. It takes a lot of security to say, "Here are the keys."

security to say, "Here are the keys." security to say, "Here are the keys." Takes a lot of security to say, "I'm Takes a lot of security to say, "I'm Takes a lot of security to say, "I'm going to tap out." And you did it going to tap out." And you did it going to tap out." And you did it relatively young. If you look on the relatively young. If you look on the relatively young. If you look on the grid of when many pastors step back, grid of when many pastors step back, grid of when many pastors step back, they're going to wait until they're in they're going to wait until they're in they're going to wait until they're in their mid to late 60s, if not their 70s, their mid to late 60s, if not their 70s, their mid to late 60s, if not their 70s, particularly if they have a a huge particularly if they have a a huge particularly if they have a a huge ministry and a lot of responsibility or ministry and a lot of responsibility or ministry and a lot of responsibility or influence. and you tapped out early. influence. and you tapped out early. influence. and you tapped out early. Um, can you talk Um, can you talk Um, can you talk about what made you feel secure enough about what made you feel secure enough about what made you feel secure enough to be able to do that? So, again, I want to be able to do that? So, again, I want to be able to do that? So, again, I want to correct the phrase tapped out because to correct the phrase tapped out because to correct the phrase tapped out because Oh, sorry. I mean, I didn't tap out. I Oh, sorry. I mean, I didn't tap out. I Oh, sorry. I mean, I didn't tap out. I didn't I I just changed roles. All didn't I I just changed roles. All didn't I I just changed roles. All right. So, I'm I'm actually still very right. So, I'm I'm actually still very right. So, I'm I'm actually still very in I'm just I'm just in a different in I'm just I'm just in a different in I'm just I'm just in a different role. So, that's important to me, too, role. So, that's important to me, too, role. So, that's important to me, too, because Okay. There's nothing about this because Okay. There's nothing about this because Okay. There's nothing about this that it's out that I'm out of anything. that it's out that I'm out of anything. that it's out that I'm out of anything. Um my but the role I play is very very Um my but the role I play is very very Um my but the role I play is very very different. But the reasons why I feel different. But the reasons why I feel different. But the reasons why I feel like now was the time and I did it at like now was the time and I did it at like now was the time and I did it at the age that I did it is that because the age that I did it is that because the age that I did it is that because the person I wanted to give it to was in the person I wanted to give it to was in the person I wanted to give it to was in their prime. This was the moment. So it their prime. This was the moment. So it their prime. This was the moment. So it was as much about them as it was about was as much about them as it was about was as much about them as it was about me. In fact, even on the day that it me. In fact, even on the day that it me. In fact, even on the day that it that we had the announcement, some of that we had the announcement, some of that we had the announcement, some of the team wanted to honor my life and the team wanted to honor my life and the team wanted to honor my life and wanted to have a big lunch afterwards.

wanted to have a big lunch afterwards. wanted to have a big lunch afterwards. And it almost a little bit not offended And it almost a little bit not offended And it almost a little bit not offended me, but I thought, "No, no, no. You me, but I thought, "No, no, no. You me, but I thought, "No, no, no. You don't you guys aren't getting it. This don't you guys aren't getting it. This don't you guys aren't getting it. This is not about me. It's not about the one is not about me. It's not about the one is not about me. It's not about the one who had kids. It's about the one who's who had kids. It's about the one who's who had kids. It's about the one who's going to have kids. This is about the going to have kids. This is about the going to have kids. This is about the this next generation." To me, it was this next generation." To me, it was this next generation." To me, it was more of a celebration of Mark Pettis more of a celebration of Mark Pettis more of a celebration of Mark Pettis than it was a transition of Chris Hodes, than it was a transition of Chris Hodes, than it was a transition of Chris Hodes, you know. So, I I don't know. It all you know. So, I I don't know. It all you know. So, I I don't know. It all felt weird to me. I didn't need to be felt weird to me. I didn't need to be felt weird to me. I didn't need to be the focus. Perhaps there'll be a day the focus. Perhaps there'll be a day the focus. Perhaps there'll be a day that I actually tap out and sit in a that I actually tap out and sit in a that I actually tap out and sit in a rocket chair. I don't know. but have the rocket chair. I don't know. but have the rocket chair. I don't know. but have the party then. But because I'm I'm more party then. But because I'm I'm more party then. But because I'm I'm more motivated right now about what I want to motivated right now about what I want to motivated right now about what I want to do with my life. I want to serve this do with my life. I want to serve this do with my life. I want to serve this local church. That's job number one. I local church. That's job number one. I local church. That's job number one. I want to be the best grandparent. I even want to be the best grandparent. I even want to be the best grandparent. I even told the church that if you loved me as told the church that if you loved me as told the church that if you loved me as a father, you're going to really love me a father, you're going to really love me a father, you're going to really love me as a grandfather because I'm going to as a grandfather because I'm going to as a grandfather because I'm going to serve this church like grandfathers serve this church like grandfathers serve this church like grandfathers serve families. I'm going to tell the serve families. I'm going to tell the serve families. I'm going to tell the stories. That was my favorite part of my stories. That was my favorite part of my stories. That was my favorite part of my grandparents, telling the stories. Like grandparents, telling the stories. Like grandparents, telling the stories. Like when you want to hear again how it all when you want to hear again how it all when you want to hear again how it all started, come let Papa tell you how it started, come let Papa tell you how it started, come let Papa tell you how it all happened. And then I and I'm going all happened. And then I and I'm going all happened. And then I and I'm going to tell those stories again. And I want to tell those stories again. And I want to tell those stories again. And I want to be at every event where I'm needed, to be at every event where I'm needed, to be at every event where I'm needed, you know, whether it be a a fundraising you know, whether it be a a fundraising you know, whether it be a a fundraising event or, you know, or at a dream team event or, you know, or at a dream team event or, you know, or at a dream team party or whatever you I I'm I'll be party or whatever you I I'm I'll be party or whatever you I I'm I'll be there for you. But but Carrie, I have there for you. But but Carrie, I have there for you. But but Carrie, I have such fire in my belly right now, too, such fire in my belly right now, too, such fire in my belly right now, too, for where we are uh with this college for where we are uh with this college for where we are uh with this college and and where I felt feel like a and and where I felt feel like a and and where I felt feel like a grandfather with the church. I feel like grandfather with the church. I feel like grandfather with the church. I feel like a father with this school. I'm ready to a father with this school. I'm ready to a father with this school. I'm ready to have kids. I'm ready. I'm as giddy about have kids. I'm ready. I'm as giddy about have kids. I'm ready. I'm as giddy about the college as I was the day I moved to

the college as I was the day I moved to the college as I was the day I moved to Birmingham to start this church, you Birmingham to start this church, you Birmingham to start this church, you know. So, and that's what let me know know. So, and that's what let me know know. So, and that's what let me know it's time because because it's not fair it's time because because it's not fair it's time because because it's not fair to the church to feel that way. to the church to feel that way. to the church to feel that way. It almost felt a bit unfair to be so It almost felt a bit unfair to be so It almost felt a bit unfair to be so excited about something and it wasn't excited about something and it wasn't excited about something and it wasn't them and um and where you have this them and um and where you have this them and um and where you have this person over here who is that excited. person over here who is that excited. person over here who is that excited. So, it just all made sense to me that So, it just all made sense to me that So, it just all made sense to me that that the timing was right. I imagine, that the timing was right. I imagine, that the timing was right. I imagine, you know, in every decision there's you know, in every decision there's you know, in every decision there's probably a hardest part of the decision probably a hardest part of the decision probably a hardest part of the decision to make the transition. What was the to make the transition. What was the to make the transition. What was the hardest part for you, Chris? Just the hardest part for you, Chris? Just the hardest part for you, Chris? Just the timing. Yeah. And and and the way it was timing. Yeah. And and and the way it was timing. Yeah. And and and the way it was going to be communicated. Um cuz because going to be communicated. Um cuz because going to be communicated. Um cuz because it's kind of like, you know, hey, hey it's kind of like, you know, hey, hey it's kind of like, you know, hey, hey church, I have something I want to tell church, I have something I want to tell church, I have something I want to tell you. And it's kind of like getting that you. And it's kind of like getting that you. And it's kind of like getting that phone call like, okay, listen. Uh your phone call like, okay, listen. Uh your phone call like, okay, listen. Uh your mom and dad were in an accident. Yeah. mom and dad were in an accident. Yeah. mom and dad were in an accident. Yeah. Uh right. You know, like and now you're Uh right. You know, like and now you're Uh right. You know, like and now you're just waiting for that next line. I was just waiting for that next line. I was just waiting for that next line. I was so wanting to get that right. Um, you so wanting to get that right. Um, you so wanting to get that right. Um, you know, because it's it's best when know, because it's it's best when know, because it's it's best when sometimes they get on the phone, listen sometimes they get on the phone, listen sometimes they get on the phone, listen to your mom and dad are fine, but okay, to your mom and dad are fine, but okay, to your mom and dad are fine, but okay, you know, so we I was thinking about how you know, so we I was thinking about how you know, so we I was thinking about how am I how how are we going to communicate am I how how are we going to communicate am I how how are we going to communicate this in a way where people know that this in a way where people know that this in a way where people know that everything's okay and and by the way, everything's okay and and by the way, everything's okay and and by the way, everything is okay. Um, and so we we everything is okay. Um, and so we we everything is okay. Um, and so we we that was the hardest part was coming up that was the hardest part was coming up that was the hardest part was coming up with the language um and figuring out with the language um and figuring out with the language um and figuring out the timing. We actually actually the timing. We actually actually the timing. We actually actually involved a third party person who's involved a third party person who's involved a third party person who's extremely brilliant, leads another extremely brilliant, leads another extremely brilliant, leads another organization, has been through a organization, has been through a organization, has been through a transition, and I asked him, I said, transition, and I asked him, I said, transition, and I asked him, I said, "Will you just walk us through this like "Will you just walk us through this like "Will you just walk us through this like a premarital counselor? Will you ask us

a premarital counselor? Will you ask us a premarital counselor? Will you ask us the questions that we're not asking the questions that we're not asking the questions that we're not asking ourselves? Will you even, you know, make ourselves? Will you even, you know, make ourselves? Will you even, you know, make sure we're okay with each other?" you sure we're okay with each other?" you sure we're okay with each other?" you know, talking about Mark Pettis and me know, talking about Mark Pettis and me know, talking about Mark Pettis and me and and and will you help us with the and and and will you help us with the and and and will you help us with the transition and the and the how we're transition and the and the how we're transition and the and the how we're going to say it and when we're going and going to say it and when we're going and going to say it and when we're going and and it was that was the most invaluable and it was that was the most invaluable and it was that was the most invaluable probably one of the best decisions we probably one of the best decisions we probably one of the best decisions we made in the whole process. So, what were made in the whole process. So, what were made in the whole process. So, what were some of the keys to that effective some of the keys to that effective some of the keys to that effective communication? communication? communication? Yeah, just saying everything before it Yeah, just saying everything before it Yeah, just saying everything before it actually happens. For instance, um they actually happens. For instance, um they actually happens. For instance, um they said, "Okay, Mark, if you're going to said, "Okay, Mark, if you're going to said, "Okay, Mark, if you're going to change anything, what would you change?" change anything, what would you change?" change anything, what would you change?" That's a great question to ask someone That's a great question to ask someone That's a great question to ask someone who, you know, was raised in this church who, you know, was raised in this church who, you know, was raised in this church and I feel like, you know, what we're and I feel like, you know, what we're and I feel like, you know, what we're doing is not broke. It's it's man, it's doing is not broke. It's it's man, it's doing is not broke. It's it's man, it's working good. And I had to hear what he working good. And I had to hear what he working good. And I had to hear what he wanted to do differently. And it was wanted to do differently. And it was wanted to do differently. And it was better to hear it, you know, a year better to hear it, you know, a year better to hear it, you know, a year before we would make the decision than before we would make the decision than before we would make the decision than after the fact. You know, what role after the fact. You know, what role after the fact. You know, what role would my family that are I have a few would my family that are I have a few would my family that are I have a few family members that are on staff here. family members that are on staff here. family members that are on staff here. Are they going to keep their jobs? Is Are they going to keep their jobs? Is Are they going to keep their jobs? Is this, you know, what role do you want me this, you know, what role do you want me this, you know, what role do you want me to play? Are you going to want more from to play? Are you going to want more from to play? Are you going to want more from me than I can give or are you going to me than I can give or are you going to me than I can give or are you going to never want me to, you know, speak? All never want me to, you know, speak? All never want me to, you know, speak? All of those had to be discussed. It's kind of those had to be discussed. It's kind of those had to be discussed. It's kind of like premarital counseling with, you of like premarital counseling with, you of like premarital counseling with, you know, how many kids do you want? And and know, how many kids do you want? And and know, how many kids do you want? And and and where one of them says, I just want and where one of them says, I just want and where one of them says, I just want one or two and another says, man, I was one or two and another says, man, I was one or two and another says, man, I was thinking 10 or 12. So, you have to thinking 10 or 12. So, you have to thinking 10 or 12. So, you have to reconcile that. And so, we actually went reconcile that. And so, we actually went reconcile that. And so, we actually went through a process of probably a dozen or through a process of probably a dozen or through a process of probably a dozen or more questions that needed to be just more questions that needed to be just more questions that needed to be just reconciled. And it was just so cool. We reconciled. And it was just so cool. We reconciled. And it was just so cool. We had the best time ever with that.

had the best time ever with that. had the best time ever with that. How old was Mark at the transition? 42. How old was Mark at the transition? 42. How old was Mark at the transition? 42. 42. Which is that around the age you 42. Which is that around the age you 42. Which is that around the age you were when you planted Church of the were when you planted Church of the were when you planted Church of the Highland? 38. You're 38. Yeah. So, not Highland? 38. You're 38. Yeah. So, not Highland? 38. You're 38. Yeah. So, not that far apart from Right. That's really that far apart from Right. That's really that far apart from Right. That's really cool. Uh, what made you think this was cool. Uh, what made you think this was cool. Uh, what made you think this was the time? Because you said the time? Because you said the time? Because you said earlier I had a window in which Mark was earlier I had a window in which Mark was earlier I had a window in which Mark was ready. Why didn't you just hold on for ready. Why didn't you just hold on for ready. Why didn't you just hold on for five more years? five more years? five more years? Oh, because I I was spending about 80% Oh, because I I was spending about 80% Oh, because I I was spending about 80% on the church and 20% on the college and on the church and 20% on the college and on the church and 20% on the college and it needed to be the other. So, I really it needed to be the other. So, I really it needed to be the other. So, I really have about 80% I need to give to this have about 80% I need to give to this have about 80% I need to give to this school to I I see something in my mind school to I I see something in my mind school to I I see something in my mind honestly, Carrie. And if I'm right, I I honestly, Carrie. And if I'm right, I I honestly, Carrie. And if I'm right, I I feel like this has the chance of being feel like this has the chance of being feel like this has the chance of being something very very special, this something very very special, this something very very special, this university, and and I'm really ready to university, and and I'm really ready to university, and and I'm really ready to give the next 20 years of my life to it. give the next 20 years of my life to it. give the next 20 years of my life to it. Yeah. How important is it for those who Yeah. How important is it for those who Yeah. How important is it for those who are thinking about succession to have are thinking about succession to have are thinking about succession to have something to go into rather than just something to go into rather than just something to go into rather than just something to leave? Well, let me answer something to leave? Well, let me answer something to leave? Well, let me answer that from a theological standpoint. And that from a theological standpoint. And that from a theological standpoint. And I really don't believe in retirement.

I really don't believe in retirement. I really don't believe in retirement. Yeah. I don't think we live our life on Yeah. I don't think we live our life on Yeah. I don't think we live our life on earth to do nothing. I think every part earth to do nothing. I think every part earth to do nothing. I think every part of your life should have purpose and of your life should have purpose and of your life should have purpose and meaning. Even if it's just as simple as meaning. Even if it's just as simple as meaning. Even if it's just as simple as mentoring and and encouraging pastors. mentoring and and encouraging pastors. mentoring and and encouraging pastors. And so, um, so I would like to say for And so, um, so I would like to say for And so, um, so I would like to say for every pastor, it's important for all of every pastor, it's important for all of every pastor, it's important for all of us to go to something. And honestly, for us to go to something. And honestly, for us to go to something. And honestly, for me, the what I was going to was was way me, the what I was going to was was way me, the what I was going to was was way more driving this process than what I more driving this process than what I more driving this process than what I was not going to do any longer. Uh, I was not going to do any longer. Uh, I was not going to do any longer. Uh, I just I I the time was now, the just I I the time was now, the just I I the time was now, the opportunities are now, you know, the opportunities are now, you know, the opportunities are now, you know, the money that needs to be raised for this money that needs to be raised for this money that needs to be raised for this university right now is now. uh we're university right now is now. uh we're university right now is now. uh we're just in a very critical season of the just in a very critical season of the just in a very critical season of the growth of this university that has a lot growth of this university that has a lot growth of this university that has a lot of momentum. So that made it very easy of momentum. So that made it very easy of momentum. So that made it very easy and and I would encourage every person and and I would encourage every person and and I would encourage every person who's thinking about who's thinking about who's thinking about um stepping away from something they're um stepping away from something they're um stepping away from something they're doing now to think about what you're doing now to think about what you're doing now to think about what you're going to I I hope to live every day of going to I I hope to live every day of going to I I hope to live every day of my life with a little fire in my belly my life with a little fire in my belly my life with a little fire in my belly and vision in my heart and living with and vision in my heart and living with and vision in my heart and living with purpose, you know. So, you know, you purpose, you know. So, you know, you purpose, you know. So, you know, you mentioned before we started recording mentioned before we started recording mentioned before we started recording that there were you knew there were that there were you knew there were that there were you knew there were going to be a lot of eyes on you. um as going to be a lot of eyes on you. um as going to be a lot of eyes on you. um as you did this transition uh that wasn't you did this transition uh that wasn't you did this transition uh that wasn't something you craved. But you've also something you craved. But you've also something you craved. But you've also seen a lot of successions over the last seen a lot of successions over the last seen a lot of successions over the last 15 or 20 years and they don't all go 15 or 20 years and they don't all go 15 or 20 years and they don't all go well. In fact, the majority probably well. In fact, the majority probably well. In fact, the majority probably don't go well if you really look at the don't go well if you really look at the don't go well if you really look at the data. What were some dos and don'ts that data. What were some dos and don'ts that data. What were some dos and don'ts that you and Mark had in mind? Like here's you and Mark had in mind? Like here's you and Mark had in mind? Like here's some things we definitely need to do and some things we definitely need to do and some things we definitely need to do and then here are some pitfalls we have to then here are some pitfalls we have to then here are some pitfalls we have to make sure we avoid.

make sure we avoid. make sure we avoid. Yeah. So everything that we do here at Yeah. So everything that we do here at Yeah. So everything that we do here at Highlands, we actually put it through Highlands, we actually put it through Highlands, we actually put it through the filter of can other churches do it the filter of can other churches do it the filter of can other churches do it and if they were going to do it, what and if they were going to do it, what and if they were going to do it, what kind of example can we set in the kind of example can we set in the kind of example can we set in the process? And we say that because not process? And we say that because not process? And we say that because not because we think we're that great. It's because we think we're that great. It's because we think we're that great. It's just like we feel like we're called to just like we feel like we're called to just like we feel like we're called to create replicatable models that are both create replicatable models that are both create replicatable models that are both scalable and transferable so that scalable and transferable so that scalable and transferable so that anybody of any size can do it. I mean, anybody of any size can do it. I mean, anybody of any size can do it. I mean, literally, when we're planning a an literally, when we're planning a an literally, when we're planning a an event, we always ask ourselves, man, event, we always ask ourselves, man, event, we always ask ourselves, man, could the church of 200 2,000 do this could the church of 200 2,000 do this could the church of 200 2,000 do this because we we love giving our models and because we we love giving our models and because we we love giving our models and our methods away. So, so we definitely our methods away. So, so we definitely our methods away. So, so we definitely stepped into this thinking, now listen, stepped into this thinking, now listen, stepped into this thinking, now listen, what we do, people are going to they're what we do, people are going to they're what we do, people are going to they're going to be watching and and and we want going to be watching and and and we want going to be watching and and and we want to be able to help those who are going to be able to help those who are going to be able to help those who are going through that. In fact, I feel called, through that. In fact, I feel called, through that. In fact, I feel called, Carrie, to actually help other churches Carrie, to actually help other churches Carrie, to actually help other churches and pastors who need that third party to and pastors who need that third party to and pastors who need that third party to step in and kind of be a part of the step in and kind of be a part of the step in and kind of be a part of the process. I'm I'm actually looking process. I'm I'm actually looking process. I'm I'm actually looking forward to hopefully uh being that forward to hopefully uh being that forward to hopefully uh being that person for for some church. I like person for for some church. I like person for for some church. I like helping other churches through that helping other churches through that helping other churches through that process. Absolutely. I would love to process. Absolutely. I would love to process. Absolutely. I would love to step in and just help them ask the right step in and just help them ask the right step in and just help them ask the right questions and lead them through the questions and lead them through the questions and lead them through the process. So, I took copious notes over process. So, I took copious notes over process. So, I took copious notes over the past two and a half years of the past two and a half years of the past two and a half years of everything we did do and didn't do. And everything we did do and didn't do. And everything we did do and didn't do. And um and again, there's not a new answer.

um and again, there's not a new answer. um and again, there's not a new answer. The answer is what we did right is we The answer is what we did right is we The answer is what we did right is we asked all the questions and talked about asked all the questions and talked about asked all the questions and talked about all the expectations long before we ever all the expectations long before we ever all the expectations long before we ever got got got there. And I think again that's that's there. And I think again that's that's there. And I think again that's that's what that's what you do in an engagement what that's what you do in an engagement what that's what you do in an engagement period if you're getting ready to get period if you're getting ready to get period if you're getting ready to get married. You'd want to talk through all married. You'd want to talk through all married. You'd want to talk through all of those dynamics and you know what are of those dynamics and you know what are of those dynamics and you know what are vacations going to look like? What are vacations going to look like? What are vacations going to look like? What are budgets going to look like for us? And I budgets going to look like for us? And I budgets going to look like for us? And I think the more that is done on the front think the more that is done on the front think the more that is done on the front end, it gives that that that new end, it gives that that that new end, it gives that that that new marriage this chance to, you know, have marriage this chance to, you know, have marriage this chance to, you know, have a great start and hopefully a long a great start and hopefully a long a great start and hopefully a long finish. And so we did all that. I think finish. And so we did all that. I think finish. And so we did all that. I think that was the right things that we did. that was the right things that we did. that was the right things that we did. Um in in the don'ts, um I'm I'm not sure Um in in the don'ts, um I'm I'm not sure Um in in the don'ts, um I'm I'm not sure I I know any that I could tell you to I I know any that I could tell you to I I know any that I could tell you to don't do. We didn't we we we were so don't do. We didn't we we we were so don't do. We didn't we we we were so intentional about the process um that I intentional about the process um that I intentional about the process um that I don't have any regrets looking back of don't have any regrets looking back of don't have any regrets looking back of man I sure wish we would have done this man I sure wish we would have done this man I sure wish we would have done this differently. The hardest part of it differently. The hardest part of it differently. The hardest part of it though was just figuring out the timing though was just figuring out the timing though was just figuring out the timing and then how it was going to be said on and then how it was going to be said on and then how it was going to be said on that day. And so um and and so we did that day. And so um and and so we did that day. And so um and and so we did trickle out trickle out trickle out information so everybody knew it was information so everybody knew it was information so everybody knew it was coming. No one knew really when. So it coming. No one knew really when. So it coming. No one knew really when. So it was a surprise to no one when it was a surprise to no one when it was a surprise to no one when it happened. Maybe it was a surprise to happened. Maybe it was a surprise to happened. Maybe it was a surprise to more than most, but how else could you more than most, but how else could you more than most, but how else could you have done it? You know, was something I have done it? You know, was something I have done it? You know, was something I don't know. So, did you trickle it out don't know. So, did you trickle it out don't know. So, did you trickle it out in concentric circles? Did you pull some in concentric circles? Did you pull some in concentric circles? Did you pull some of your key stakeholders in and say, of your key stakeholders in and say, of your key stakeholders in and say, "Hey, heads up." Absolutely. Absolutely.

"Hey, heads up." Absolutely. Absolutely. "Hey, heads up." Absolutely. Absolutely. It was it was over a year ago that all It was it was over a year ago that all It was it was over a year ago that all of our elders, everybody, we have three of our elders, everybody, we have three of our elders, everybody, we have three levels of elders or three groups of levels of elders or three groups of levels of elders or three groups of elders maybe I should say, um that all elders maybe I should say, um that all elders maybe I should say, um that all knew the process and all spoke into the knew the process and all spoke into the knew the process and all spoke into the process as well. And then it was not process as well. And then it was not process as well. And then it was not until actually about four to six months until actually about four to six months until actually about four to six months out that we started actually thinking out that we started actually thinking out that we started actually thinking about the actual timing of it. Yeah. about the actual timing of it. Yeah. about the actual timing of it. Yeah. What would you say to leaders who would What would you say to leaders who would What would you say to leaders who would say, "Well, that would be great if I had say, "Well, that would be great if I had say, "Well, that would be great if I had a Mark Pettis, but I don't. I don't have a Mark Pettis, but I don't. I don't have a Mark Pettis, but I don't. I don't have anyone in sight." Sometimes that's anyone in sight." Sometimes that's anyone in sight." Sometimes that's because of denominational stuff, like because of denominational stuff, like because of denominational stuff, like the bishop needs to be involved or the the bishop needs to be involved or the the bishop needs to be involved or the superintendent. Sometimes it's just superintendent. Sometimes it's just superintendent. Sometimes it's just like, "Hey, we're a church of 200, 300. like, "Hey, we're a church of 200, 300. like, "Hey, we're a church of 200, 300. Like, I don't know who's going to take Like, I don't know who's going to take Like, I don't know who's going to take this thing over." uh any advice for them this thing over." uh any advice for them this thing over." uh any advice for them in finding a successor because I was in in finding a successor because I was in in finding a successor because I was in a very sim similar window. I was 50. Uh a very sim similar window. I was 50. Uh a very sim similar window. I was 50. Uh my successor now was just turning 40 and my successor now was just turning 40 and my successor now was just turning 40 and I thought this is the window. This is I thought this is the window. This is I thought this is the window. This is the time. Church was strong, double- the time. Church was strong, double- the time. Church was strong, double- digit growth, money in the bank. Now's digit growth, money in the bank. Now's digit growth, money in the bank. Now's the time to hand it over. So that's what the time to hand it over. So that's what the time to hand it over. So that's what we did. But I was very fortunate to have we did. But I was very fortunate to have we did. But I was very fortunate to have a successor and thought about it for a successor and thought about it for a successor and thought about it for years before I actually was able to do years before I actually was able to do years before I actually was able to do it.

it. it. Yeah. I mean, I I was thinking about Yeah. I mean, I I was thinking about Yeah. I mean, I I was thinking about this transition long before I had this transition long before I had this transition long before I had someone in mind to give it to. So, um, someone in mind to give it to. So, um, someone in mind to give it to. So, um, and just philosophically, uh, I believe and just philosophically, uh, I believe and just philosophically, uh, I believe that we should all be pouring our lives that we should all be pouring our lives that we should all be pouring our lives into a group of disciples. And my into a group of disciples. And my into a group of disciples. And my philosophy was let God pick the one. My philosophy was let God pick the one. My philosophy was let God pick the one. My job is to prepare. I I call it gather job is to prepare. I I call it gather job is to prepare. I I call it gather many to find one. And so, I had probably many to find one. And so, I had probably many to find one. And so, I had probably eight to 10 people that I was thinking, eight to 10 people that I was thinking, eight to 10 people that I was thinking, you know, all these guys could do it. you know, all these guys could do it. you know, all these guys could do it. I'm just going to pour my life into them I'm just going to pour my life into them I'm just going to pour my life into them and just to see see where the hand of and just to see see where the hand of and just to see see where the hand of God would would rest on which one. And God would would rest on which one. And God would would rest on which one. And so actually, including my biological so actually, including my biological so actually, including my biological sons, by the way, I had the conversation sons, by the way, I had the conversation sons, by the way, I had the conversation with all of them. I was like, "Do you with all of them. I was like, "Do you with all of them. I was like, "Do you guys want to be in this list of people guys want to be in this list of people guys want to be in this list of people that I'm going to pour my life into that that I'm going to pour my life into that that I'm going to pour my life into that I believe one day is going to lead I believe one day is going to lead I believe one day is going to lead Church of the Highlands?" And um and and Church of the Highlands?" And um and and Church of the Highlands?" And um and and actually none of them actually, I don't actually none of them actually, I don't actually none of them actually, I don't know if this says about my job, but none know if this says about my job, but none know if this says about my job, but none of them wanted to do it. They were like, of them wanted to do it. They were like, of them wanted to do it. They were like, "No, it's okay, Dad." Yeah. And I gave "No, it's okay, Dad." Yeah. And I gave "No, it's okay, Dad." Yeah. And I gave him another chance a couple years ago him another chance a couple years ago him another chance a couple years ago and they said, "No, we we want to be on and they said, "No, we we want to be on and they said, "No, we we want to be on the team somewhere, but let's let's let the team somewhere, but let's let's let the team somewhere, but let's let's let someone else do it." And um but no, I someone else do it." And um but no, I someone else do it." And um but no, I had there were there were there were had there were there were there were had there were there were there were eight people that could have done this eight people that could have done this eight people that could have done this honestly. I mean, we have some honestly. I mean, we have some honestly. I mean, we have some tremendous leaders around here and and tremendous leaders around here and and tremendous leaders around here and and so I just poured my life into all of so I just poured my life into all of so I just poured my life into all of them. In fact, again, another breaking them. In fact, again, another breaking them. In fact, again, another breaking news I'll share on the on this podcast news I'll share on the on this podcast news I'll share on the on this podcast because I've never said this before. Um because I've never said this before. Um because I've never said this before. Um I was even in mind of a different model I was even in mind of a different model I was even in mind of a different model of how we would have Church of the of how we would have Church of the of how we would have Church of the Highlands. I was even saying the Lord, Highlands. I was even saying the Lord, Highlands. I was even saying the Lord, would you want all those camp all the would you want all those camp all the would you want all those camp all the campuses to just to be autonomous campuses to just to be autonomous campuses to just to be autonomous campuses? Oh wow. Yeah. I I was open to

campuses? Oh wow. Yeah. I I was open to campuses? Oh wow. Yeah. I I was open to anything honestly to so I even I even anything honestly to so I even I even anything honestly to so I even I even began the preparations of what would began the preparations of what would began the preparations of what would that look like? I mean raising up elders that look like? I mean raising up elders that look like? I mean raising up elders in at every campus, boards at every in at every campus, boards at every in at every campus, boards at every campus, you know, just I I thought about campus, you know, just I I thought about campus, you know, just I I thought about it all. And so and and so my philosophy it all. And so and and so my philosophy it all. And so and and so my philosophy was just prepare for everything and then was just prepare for everything and then was just prepare for everything and then let God put his favor on something. let God put his favor on something. let God put his favor on something. So one of the one of the principles So one of the one of the principles So one of the one of the principles there is you have been incredible at there is you have been incredible at there is you have been incredible at developing other leaders. To have a developing other leaders. To have a developing other leaders. To have a candidate of eight to like eight candidate of eight to like eight candidate of eight to like eight candidates to actually potentially candidates to actually potentially candidates to actually potentially choose from is very rare. I know people choose from is very rare. I know people choose from is very rare. I know people who lead very large churches and they're who lead very large churches and they're who lead very large churches and they're just hoping to find one, right? But just hoping to find one, right? But just hoping to find one, right? But you've also done that. I mean you look you've also done that. I mean you look you've also done that. I mean you look at your number of campuses, you look at at your number of campuses, you look at at your number of campuses, you look at Grow Leader, you look at Highlands Grow Leader, you look at Highlands Grow Leader, you look at Highlands College. So I think there's a lesson in College. So I think there's a lesson in College. So I think there's a lesson in there for all of us who maybe are not there for all of us who maybe are not there for all of us who maybe are not quite as focused on leadership quite as focused on leadership quite as focused on leadership development. What have been some keys development. What have been some keys development. What have been some keys to because it's only been just over 20 to because it's only been just over 20 to because it's only been just over 20 years for Church of the Highlands and years for Church of the Highlands and years for Church of the Highlands and you look at the size, you look at the you look at the size, you look at the you look at the size, you look at the impact uh 25 years maybe.

impact uh 25 years maybe. impact uh 25 years maybe. How what have been some keys to How what have been some keys to How what have been some keys to leadership development for you Chris in leadership development for you Chris in leadership development for you Chris in seeing that scale of leadership in that seeing that scale of leadership in that seeing that scale of leadership in that compressed time frame? compressed time frame? compressed time frame? Yeah. I mean, you just have to believe Yeah. I mean, you just have to believe Yeah. I mean, you just have to believe and that's how you get more things done. and that's how you get more things done. and that's how you get more things done. I mean, I think gone are the days of I mean, I think gone are the days of I mean, I think gone are the days of just a ministry around the personality just a ministry around the personality just a ministry around the personality or the gifts of one person. And I don't or the gifts of one person. And I don't or the gifts of one person. And I don't even say that because they're even say that because they're even say that because they're narcissistic. I just say I just think we narcissistic. I just say I just think we narcissistic. I just say I just think we get more done. To me, it always made get more done. To me, it always made get more done. To me, it always made more sense to pour my life into more more sense to pour my life into more more sense to pour my life into more people who had the ability. You know, people who had the ability. You know, people who had the ability. You know, Jesus said that the the if if if you Jesus said that the the if if if you Jesus said that the the if if if you have a kernel of wheat or kernel of corn have a kernel of wheat or kernel of corn have a kernel of wheat or kernel of corn that remains a single seed, it's a that remains a single seed, it's a that remains a single seed, it's a single seed. But if it falls down to the single seed. But if it falls down to the single seed. But if it falls down to the ground and dies, it produces many. And ground and dies, it produces many. And ground and dies, it produces many. And I've always had this mindset of, you I've always had this mindset of, you I've always had this mindset of, you know, living my life a little bit more know, living my life a little bit more know, living my life a little bit more generationally and and poured my life uh generationally and and poured my life uh generationally and and poured my life uh uh into other leaders. And so, what did uh into other leaders. And so, what did uh into other leaders. And so, what did that look like practically? Like, how that look like practically? Like, how that look like practically? Like, how would your calendar be different than would your calendar be different than would your calendar be different than many other calendars? Oh, I just got off many other calendars? Oh, I just got off many other calendars? Oh, I just got off of a call, a mentoring call that I do of a call, a mentoring call that I do of a call, a mentoring call that I do with pastors and I was telling them your with pastors and I was telling them your with pastors and I was telling them your your weekly calendar reflects the fact your weekly calendar reflects the fact your weekly calendar reflects the fact that whether you believe in leadership that whether you believe in leadership that whether you believe in leadership development or not. I mean, when you development or not. I mean, when you development or not. I mean, when you went to the hospital, was someone with went to the hospital, was someone with went to the hospital, was someone with you? Uh did you how many leadership you? Uh did you how many leadership you? Uh did you how many leadership lunches did you have this week where you lunches did you have this week where you lunches did you have this week where you were, you know, uh having all of them were, you know, uh having all of them were, you know, uh having all of them just come with a question, you'll buy just come with a question, you'll buy just come with a question, you'll buy the lunch and and you answer questions the lunch and and you answer questions the lunch and and you answer questions and and develop and mentor leaders. And and and develop and mentor leaders. And and and develop and mentor leaders. And we've been doing that since day one.

we've been doing that since day one. we've been doing that since day one. Really? Okay. Yeah. Because most most Really? Okay. Yeah. Because most most Really? Okay. Yeah. Because most most people it's a solo sport, right? Like I people it's a solo sport, right? Like I people it's a solo sport, right? Like I just go to the hospital alone. I do my just go to the hospital alone. I do my just go to the hospital alone. I do my message writing alone. And you have not message writing alone. And you have not message writing alone. And you have not been that way. Yeah. And that's again been that way. Yeah. And that's again been that way. Yeah. And that's again this because of my my um worldview if this because of my my um worldview if this because of my my um worldview if for lack of a better way to say it. My for lack of a better way to say it. My for lack of a better way to say it. My biblical worldview is is that I get this biblical worldview is is that I get this biblical worldview is is that I get this short window of time to serve Jesus short window of time to serve Jesus short window of time to serve Jesus anyway. So why not leave as much as I anyway. So why not leave as much as I anyway. So why not leave as much as I can? The the the two second Timothy 2:2. can? The the the two second Timothy 2:2. can? The the the two second Timothy 2:2. the things you've you know you've seen the things you've you know you've seen the things you've you know you've seen in me entrusted to reliable people who in me entrusted to reliable people who in me entrusted to reliable people who will teach others also to live your life will teach others also to live your life will teach others also to live your life generationally like that is it's it's I generationally like that is it's it's I generationally like that is it's it's I think it's the spice of life. I think think it's the spice of life. I think think it's the spice of life. I think it's what makes life so beautiful. I it's what makes life so beautiful. I it's what makes life so beautiful. I have I have my 10th grandchild on the have I have my 10th grandchild on the have I have my 10th grandchild on the way right now and I and my chest is all way right now and I and my chest is all way right now and I and my chest is all stuck out by that that I I didn't just stuck out by that that I I didn't just stuck out by that that I I didn't just have a life and then have a wife, man. I have a life and then have a wife, man. I have a life and then have a wife, man. I I poured my life into five kids who are I poured my life into five kids who are I poured my life into five kids who are now turned that into 10 kids. And the now turned that into 10 kids. And the now turned that into 10 kids. And the bigger the family, the more fun we have. bigger the family, the more fun we have. bigger the family, the more fun we have. I had that same view in the ministry. I I had that same view in the ministry. I I had that same view in the ministry. I mean, why not live your life that way? I mean, why not live your life that way? I mean, why not live your life that way? I I take more joy in hearing what I take more joy in hearing what I take more joy in hearing what spiritual sons and daughters are doing spiritual sons and daughters are doing spiritual sons and daughters are doing than anything we've ever done at than anything we've ever done at than anything we've ever done at Highlands. It's just and it's just like Highlands. It's just and it's just like Highlands. It's just and it's just like Thanksgiving at at Papa's House, you Thanksgiving at at Papa's House, you Thanksgiving at at Papa's House, you know. It's a it's a room full of people know. It's a it's a room full of people know. It's a it's a room full of people um that you get to pour your life into.

um that you get to pour your life into. um that you get to pour your life into. What's what's more fun than that, you What's what's more fun than that, you What's what's more fun than that, you know? H well, you know, it's interesting know? H well, you know, it's interesting know? H well, you know, it's interesting that you opened up about having the that you opened up about having the that you opened up about having the inferiority complex that you're not a inferiority complex that you're not a inferiority complex that you're not a huge fan of social media because if you huge fan of social media because if you huge fan of social media because if you I mean, I see the connection here. If I mean, I see the connection here. If I mean, I see the connection here. If you want to connect the dots, if you you want to connect the dots, if you you want to connect the dots, if you want to follow the breadcrumbs, if want to follow the breadcrumbs, if want to follow the breadcrumbs, if you're obsessed with building a you're obsessed with building a you're obsessed with building a platform, being the next conference platform, being the next conference platform, being the next conference speaker, headline speaker, that makes it speaker, headline speaker, that makes it speaker, headline speaker, that makes it really difficult to build into other really difficult to build into other really difficult to build into other people. Do you see a connection there people. Do you see a connection there people. Do you see a connection there between your approach and style to between your approach and style to between your approach and style to ministry and your ability to reproduce ministry and your ability to reproduce ministry and your ability to reproduce leaders? leaders? leaders? You're probably right. Yeah. I've never You're probably right. Yeah. I've never You're probably right. Yeah. I've never really connected at all, but you're really connected at all, but you're really connected at all, but you're you're probably right. Yeah. Just live you're probably right. Yeah. Just live you're probably right. Yeah. Just live thinking. Yeah. I mean, I just I really thinking. Yeah. I mean, I just I really thinking. Yeah. I mean, I just I really enjoy that. I really enjoy, you know, enjoy that. I really enjoy, you know, enjoy that. I really enjoy, you know, the church planners we train. I I really the church planners we train. I I really the church planners we train. I I really enjoy I I I actually sometimes have more enjoy I I I actually sometimes have more enjoy I I I actually sometimes have more fun helping another church reach its fun helping another church reach its fun helping another church reach its potential than solving the problems at potential than solving the problems at potential than solving the problems at Church of the Highlands and seeing how Church of the Highlands and seeing how Church of the Highlands and seeing how we can have a better Easter or whatever. we can have a better Easter or whatever. we can have a better Easter or whatever. It's just it's really fun and I don't It's just it's really fun and I don't It's just it's really fun and I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if know. I don't know. I don't know if know. I don't know. I don't know if that's the way it should be for all of that's the way it should be for all of that's the way it should be for all of us or if that's just something unique to us or if that's just something unique to us or if that's just something unique to me. I won't presume to know the answer me. I won't presume to know the answer me. I won't presume to know the answer to that question, but I just all I know to that question, but I just all I know to that question, but I just all I know is um that's what's make that's that's is um that's what's make that's that's is um that's what's make that's that's what made all of this not hard. Yeah, what made all of this not hard. Yeah, what made all of this not hard. Yeah, internal hire versus external hire. Uh internal hire versus external hire. Uh internal hire versus external hire. Uh we have had we have had we have had nearly zero external hires, which is nearly zero external hires, which is nearly zero external hires, which is interesting because you've been interesting because you've been interesting because you've been convening cohorts with some of the most

convening cohorts with some of the most convening cohorts with some of the most influential nextgen pastors. Not influential nextgen pastors. Not influential nextgen pastors. Not dropping any names, but anybody who dropping any names, but anybody who dropping any names, but anybody who follows you on social has watched this follows you on social has watched this follows you on social has watched this for years. You've been doing that for for years. You've been doing that for for years. You've been doing that for years and years and years. It would have years and years and years. It would have years and years and years. It would have been very easy to tap someone who's been very easy to tap someone who's been very easy to tap someone who's leading a church of say 10,000 who's leading a church of say 10,000 who's leading a church of say 10,000 who's like in their 30s or early 40s and go like in their 30s or early 40s and go like in their 30s or early 40s and go hey you come over here and lead Church hey you come over here and lead Church hey you come over here and lead Church of the Highlands. Um, obviously Mark of the Highlands. Um, obviously Mark of the Highlands. Um, obviously Mark seems to be anointed for this and you seems to be anointed for this and you seems to be anointed for this and you know all that, know all that, know all that, but what are the the pros and cons of but what are the the pros and cons of but what are the the pros and cons of bringing an external hire in to a church bringing an external hire in to a church bringing an external hire in to a church that has its, you know, a DNA that that has its, you know, a DNA that that has its, you know, a DNA that you've crafted and cultivated for over you've crafted and cultivated for over you've crafted and cultivated for over two decades. Well, I don't know the pros two decades. Well, I don't know the pros two decades. Well, I don't know the pros and cons because I've never done it, and cons because I've never done it, and cons because I've never done it, honestly. So, I really don't know. But I honestly. So, I really don't know. But I honestly. So, I really don't know. But I can tell you this that that Mark is a can tell you this that that Mark is a can tell you this that that Mark is a great leader in his own right and no one great leader in his own right and no one great leader in his own right and no one knew it. No one knew that I had knew it. No one knew that I had knew it. No one knew that I had literally nothing to do with the literally nothing to do with the literally nothing to do with the beginnings of this college. Um, no, no beginnings of this college. Um, no, no beginnings of this college. Um, no, no one knows that I didn't take us through one knows that I didn't take us through one knows that I didn't take us through the accredititation process. Mark did.

the accredititation process. Mark did. the accredititation process. Mark did. Um, no one knows that I didn't sit in I Um, no one knows that I didn't sit in I Um, no one knows that I didn't sit in I sat in in none of the architect um sat in in none of the architect um sat in in none of the architect um meetings to for the design of what the meetings to for the design of what the meetings to for the design of what the classrooms would be like Mark did. So classrooms would be like Mark did. So classrooms would be like Mark did. So literally, you know, I empowered him to literally, you know, I empowered him to literally, you know, I empowered him to take the project right here in our own take the project right here in our own take the project right here in our own house and he turned it into something house and he turned it into something house and he turned it into something that was that was that was incredibly impressive to say the least. incredibly impressive to say the least. incredibly impressive to say the least. This the facilities here and the This the facilities here and the This the facilities here and the programming of this university and he programming of this university and he programming of this university and he built that and no one knew it. People built that and no one knew it. People built that and no one knew it. People were giving me the credit for it, but I were giving me the credit for it, but I were giving me the credit for it, but I just empowered a leader on my team. No just empowered a leader on my team. No just empowered a leader on my team. No one knows that that we have a student one knows that that we have a student one knows that that we have a student conference that is one of the largest in conference that is one of the largest in conference that is one of the largest in the nation that we have every summer. the nation that we have every summer. the nation that we have every summer. And when and it was Mark's idea he ca in And when and it was Mark's idea he ca in And when and it was Mark's idea he ca in fact he came to me and said hey I think fact he came to me and said hey I think fact he came to me and said hey I think we need to do this student conference in we need to do this student conference in we need to do this student conference in our downtown arena and I thought I don't our downtown arena and I thought I don't our downtown arena and I thought I don't think we should do that sounds like a think we should do that sounds like a think we should do that sounds like a lot of money and he was right and I said lot of money and he was right and I said lot of money and he was right and I said yes cuz I wanted to empower the dreams yes cuz I wanted to empower the dreams yes cuz I wanted to empower the dreams that he had and we talked about it made that he had and we talked about it made that he had and we talked about it made a little bit more sense to me but I a little bit more sense to me but I a little bit more sense to me but I wasn't excited about it and and now it's wasn't excited about it and and now it's wasn't excited about it and and now it's something I get to say man look at look something I get to say man look at look something I get to say man look at look look what we've built. Well, I didn't do look what we've built. Well, I didn't do look what we've built. Well, I didn't do that at all, actually. And so, um, so to that at all, actually. And so, um, so to that at all, actually. And so, um, so to me, he was that pastor of 10,000 people me, he was that pastor of 10,000 people me, he was that pastor of 10,000 people already, so to speak. He just wasn't a already, so to speak. He just wasn't a already, so to speak. He just wasn't a pastor of 10,000 people. He he he didn't pastor of 10,000 people. He he he didn't pastor of 10,000 people. He he he didn't even need me.

even need me. even need me. Um, well, I have many leaders on my team Um, well, I have many leaders on my team Um, well, I have many leaders on my team who don't who we if they weren't here, who don't who we if they weren't here, who don't who we if they weren't here, they'd still be doing great things. They they'd still be doing great things. They they'd still be doing great things. They don't need me to be great, right? You don't need me to be great, right? You don't need me to be great, right? You know, so um so I love that. And I think know, so um so I love that. And I think know, so um so I love that. And I think the reason why we have leaders like that the reason why we have leaders like that the reason why we have leaders like that uh is that uh is that you do have to uh is that uh is that you do have to uh is that uh is that you do have to create an empowering create an empowering create an empowering culture. And an empowering culture culture. And an empowering culture culture. And an empowering culture simply means you have to listen to their simply means you have to listen to their simply means you have to listen to their ideas and once in a while you need to ideas and once in a while you need to ideas and once in a while you need to say yes to them cuz they could be right. say yes to them cuz they could be right. say yes to them cuz they could be right. And in the case of Motion Conference, And in the case of Motion Conference, And in the case of Motion Conference, Mark was right. And now it's it's it's Mark was right. And now it's it's it's Mark was right. And now it's it's it's it's something that we're all very it's something that we're all very it's something that we're all very grateful to the Lord that, you know, grateful to the Lord that, you know, grateful to the Lord that, you know, it's it's it's a vibrant part of who we it's it's it's a vibrant part of who we it's it's it's a vibrant part of who we are at this church now. and it wasn't my are at this church now. and it wasn't my are at this church now. and it wasn't my idea. So many leaders struggle to let go idea. So many leaders struggle to let go idea. So many leaders struggle to let go or hope their legacy continues. Are or hope their legacy continues. Are or hope their legacy continues. Are there any there any there any non-negotiables that you thought Church non-negotiables that you thought Church non-negotiables that you thought Church of the Highlands has to continue doing of the Highlands has to continue doing of the Highlands has to continue doing this? Like I'm not the lead pastor this? Like I'm not the lead pastor this? Like I'm not the lead pastor anymore, but you got to keep doing this. anymore, but you got to keep doing this. anymore, but you got to keep doing this. Were there any non-negotiables that you Were there any non-negotiables that you Were there any non-negotiables that you and Mark negotiated or was it kind of and Mark negotiated or was it kind of and Mark negotiated or was it kind of cart blanch? Take it where God leads you cart blanch? Take it where God leads you cart blanch? Take it where God leads you to take it. So I actually we had a long to take it. So I actually we had a long to take it. So I actually we had a long multiple conversations about this very multiple conversations about this very multiple conversations about this very question and and I told him listen to me question and and I told him listen to me question and and I told him listen to me if you decide to change something I will if you decide to change something I will if you decide to change something I will be I'll be carrying the banner of this be I'll be carrying the banner of this be I'll be carrying the banner of this is great let's do this church I'll I'll is great let's do this church I'll I'll is great let's do this church I'll I'll I will cheerlead you all along the way I will cheerlead you all along the way I will cheerlead you all along the way even if I don't agree but let me tell even if I don't agree but let me tell even if I don't agree but let me tell you the things that I think you should you the things that I think you should you the things that I think you should never change and if you do again I'm never change and if you do again I'm never change and if you do again I'm going to wave the banner and say way to going to wave the banner and say way to going to wave the banner and say way to go let's go let's charge that hill but

go let's go let's charge that hill but go let's go let's charge that hill but but I talked about some of the things in but I talked about some of the things in but I talked about some of the things in fact I came up with about 12 and I even fact I came up with about 12 and I even fact I came up with about 12 and I even shared all of these with our entire shared all of these with our entire shared all of these with our entire staff and I shared just three or four of staff and I shared just three or four of staff and I shared just three or four of them with the church on the Sunday that them with the church on the Sunday that them with the church on the Sunday that we made uh this transition of roles the we made uh this transition of roles the we made uh this transition of roles the the announcement and uh and it was the announcement and uh and it was the announcement and uh and it was things like you know prayer I mean things like you know prayer I mean things like you know prayer I mean please please keep 21 days of prayer please please keep 21 days of prayer please please keep 21 days of prayer please keep this as a praying church um please keep this as a praying church um please keep this as a praying church um because I know I know how much of this because I know I know how much of this because I know I know how much of this is not us it's it's it's God's blessing is not us it's it's it's God's blessing is not us it's it's it's God's blessing on our life and I think it's because on our life and I think it's because on our life and I think it's because we've sought him with all of our heart we've sought him with all of our heart we've sought him with all of our heart and and asked him to pour out his spirit and and asked him to pour out his spirit and and asked him to pour out his spirit in our church. And so, uh, missions, in our church. And so, uh, missions, in our church. And so, uh, missions, let's let's keep the a vast portion of let's let's keep the a vast portion of let's let's keep the a vast portion of our budget going to world missions and our budget going to world missions and our budget going to world missions and to local outreach and to helping those to local outreach and to helping those to local outreach and to helping those outside the walls of each church. So, I outside the walls of each church. So, I outside the walls of each church. So, I went line upon line of the things that I went line upon line of the things that I went line upon line of the things that I I think were important and again said, I think were important and again said, I think were important and again said, if you're going to change them, fine. if you're going to change them, fine. if you're going to change them, fine. But this is I'm just letting you know But this is I'm just letting you know But this is I'm just letting you know these are the what I think are enduring these are the what I think are enduring these are the what I think are enduring values. And of course to to every one of values. And of course to to every one of values. And of course to to every one of them Mark said absolutely and what will them Mark said absolutely and what will them Mark said absolutely and what will what might still change is how they're what might still change is how they're what might still change is how they're done but not if they're going to be done but not if they're going to be done but not if they're going to be done. Right. Right. What advice do you done. Right. Right. What advice do you done. Right. Right. What advice do you have for pastors who are contemplating a have for pastors who are contemplating a have for pastors who are contemplating a change of leadership?

change of leadership? change of leadership? Yeah. just go take let the process be Yeah. just go take let the process be Yeah. just go take let the process be very intentional and very thorough. Um very intentional and very thorough. Um very intentional and very thorough. Um we ours was about a two and a half year we ours was about a two and a half year we ours was about a two and a half year process. Uh I would get an outside party process. Uh I would get an outside party process. Uh I would get an outside party to come um I don't know what the right to come um I don't know what the right to come um I don't know what the right word is referee it you know talk through word is referee it you know talk through word is referee it you know talk through it be be a just a a a counselor in the it be be a just a a a counselor in the it be be a just a a a counselor in the process that can help you. That was so process that can help you. That was so process that can help you. That was so invaluable for for for our process. Um, invaluable for for for our process. Um, invaluable for for for our process. Um, make sure you're getting the buy in of make sure you're getting the buy in of make sure you're getting the buy in of the of the of the stakeholders in the the of the of the stakeholders in the the of the of the stakeholders in the organization, the elders, the leaders. I organization, the elders, the leaders. I organization, the elders, the leaders. I I brought those guys in early. I mean, I brought those guys in early. I mean, I brought those guys in early. I mean, this is what I'm thinking now. If you're this is what I'm thinking now. If you're this is what I'm thinking now. If you're going to stop it, let me know. Even my going to stop it, let me know. Even my going to stop it, let me know. Even my own family. I met with my family. I own family. I met with my family. I own family. I met with my family. I said, "Listen to me. This is where I'm said, "Listen to me. This is where I'm said, "Listen to me. This is where I'm headed. I'm I'm getting closer and headed. I'm I'm getting closer and headed. I'm I'm getting closer and closer. If if you have a strong opinion, closer. If if you have a strong opinion, closer. If if you have a strong opinion, you need to say it right now. And you you need to say it right now. And you you need to say it right now. And you and you have the right to interrupt this and you have the right to interrupt this and you have the right to interrupt this or slow it down or change it. But or slow it down or change it. But or slow it down or change it. But because I I need your buy in. I I needed because I I need your buy in. I I needed because I I need your buy in. I I needed all every me me me me me me me me me me all every me me me me me me me me me me all every me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me member of my family going me me me me member of my family going me me me me member of my family going yes yes yes yes yes Mark Pettis we're so yes yes yes yes yes Mark Pettis we're so yes yes yes yes yes Mark Pettis we're so glad you know he's leading this church glad you know he's leading this church glad you know he's leading this church now and so anyway so I worked very very now and so anyway so I worked very very now and so anyway so I worked very very hard on that and that would be my advice hard on that and that would be my advice hard on that and that would be my advice who was the decision hardest on and you who was the decision hardest on and you who was the decision hardest on and you don't have to name names but just like don't have to name names but just like don't have to name names but just like was it hardest on your family was it was it hardest on your family was it was it hardest on your family was it hardest on some of the key staff was it hardest on some of the key staff was it hardest on some of the key staff was it hardest on the people who sat in the hardest on the people who sat in the hardest on the people who sat in the back row and that's a great question um back row and that's a great question um back row and that's a great question um who was it hardest on Somebody had to who was it hardest on Somebody had to who was it hardest on Somebody had to have been like, "No, I think the the have been like, "No, I think the the have been like, "No, I think the the family has had family has had family has had such such a huge role in this that no

such such a huge role in this that no such such a huge role in this that no one knows about." Yeah. Both the good one knows about." Yeah. Both the good one knows about." Yeah. Both the good and the bad, by the way. And they've and the bad, by the way. And they've and the bad, by the way. And they've carried the burden of the good days, the carried the burden of the good days, the carried the burden of the good days, the bad days, the And um I think I you could bad days, the And um I think I you could bad days, the And um I think I you could see it on their faces. Um you know, I see it on their faces. Um you know, I see it on their faces. Um you know, I mean, they all when we moved to mean, they all when we moved to mean, they all when we moved to Birmingham, they were all very very Birmingham, they were all very very Birmingham, they were all very very young children in you, seven, eight, young children in you, seven, eight, young children in you, seven, eight, nine, 10 years old in that age range. nine, 10 years old in that age range. nine, 10 years old in that age range. and um and so they've they've they've and um and so they've they've they've and um and so they've they've they've taken this full journey together and and taken this full journey together and and taken this full journey together and and they were a very huge part of my life they were a very huge part of my life they were a very huge part of my life and and what happened here at Highlands and and what happened here at Highlands and and what happened here at Highlands more than more than people will ever more than more than people will ever more than more than people will ever know. And I think I think it would be know. And I think I think it would be know. And I think I think it would be them. I think I mean you could you could them. I think I mean you could you could them. I think I mean you could you could tell because they came to me and said, tell because they came to me and said, tell because they came to me and said, "Dad, your dad, you're right. We love "Dad, your dad, you're right. We love "Dad, your dad, you're right. We love this, but what feels weird?" Yeah, it this, but what feels weird?" Yeah, it this, but what feels weird?" Yeah, it still feels weird. I think probably, and still feels weird. I think probably, and still feels weird. I think probably, and she's not here to say it herself, but I she's not here to say it herself, but I she's not here to say it herself, but I think it was probably hardest on my wife think it was probably hardest on my wife think it was probably hardest on my wife Tony. Um because in many ways, I don't Tony. Um because in many ways, I don't Tony. Um because in many ways, I don't know how Tammy was with it with you, know how Tammy was with it with you, know how Tammy was with it with you, Chris, but I think Tony would say in Chris, but I think Tony would say in Chris, but I think Tony would say in retrospect, you know, you you are the retrospect, you know, you you are the retrospect, you know, you you are the shock absorber when your husband is the shock absorber when your husband is the shock absorber when your husband is the lead pastor. And I made the decision, lead pastor. And I made the decision, lead pastor. And I made the decision, but uh and she she blessed it, but it but uh and she she blessed it, but it but uh and she she blessed it, but it feels like all of that that role got feels like all of that that role got feels like all of that that role got taken taken taken away from her. Not without her consent, away from her. Not without her consent, away from her. Not without her consent, but it's like all of a sudden, and it but it's like all of a sudden, and it but it's like all of a sudden, and it wasn't even out of her control. I don't wasn't even out of her control. I don't wasn't even out of her control. I don't know how to describe it, but it had an know how to describe it, but it had an know how to describe it, but it had an impact on her that I probably impact on her that I probably impact on her that I probably underestimated when I was making the underestimated when I was making the underestimated when I was making the decision. And you said things like that.

decision. And you said things like that. decision. And you said things like that. Oh, yeah. She she came and said, "I know Oh, yeah. She she came and said, "I know Oh, yeah. She she came and said, "I know this is right, but it feels feels this is right, but it feels feels this is right, but it feels feels weird." And I said, "What about it makes weird." And I said, "What about it makes weird." And I said, "What about it makes you feel weird?" And of course, she's a, you feel weird?" And of course, she's a, you feel weird?" And of course, she's a, you know, steady, stable, flaggmatic you know, steady, stable, flaggmatic you know, steady, stable, flaggmatic type personality that just doesn't like type personality that just doesn't like type personality that just doesn't like change much anyway. She goes, "What's change much anyway. She goes, "What's change much anyway. She goes, "What's going to change?" And I said, "Darling, going to change?" And I said, "Darling, going to change?" And I said, "Darling, nothing really. We're going to we're nothing really. We're going to we're nothing really. We're going to we're just going to be grandparents in the just going to be grandparents in the just going to be grandparents in the same family. We're going we're going same family. We're going we're going same family. We're going we're going nowhere. We're going to sit in these nowhere. We're going to sit in these nowhere. We're going to sit in these chairs on Sunday morning, the same chairs on Sunday morning, the same chairs on Sunday morning, the same chairs. We might not have to go to every chairs. We might not have to go to every chairs. We might not have to go to every service anymore, right? And I'll sleep a service anymore, right? And I'll sleep a service anymore, right? And I'll sleep a whole lot better on Saturday nights. whole lot better on Saturday nights. whole lot better on Saturday nights. That's for sure. Uh but but but no, man, That's for sure. Uh but but but no, man, That's for sure. Uh but but but no, man, we're still in and it's my favorite line we're still in and it's my favorite line we're still in and it's my favorite line in this whole process. Same family, just in this whole process. Same family, just in this whole process. Same family, just different role. Didn't didn't go different role. Didn't didn't go different role. Didn't didn't go anywhere, you know, not leaving. There's anywhere, you know, not leaving. There's anywhere, you know, not leaving. There's no there's no divorce. There's no moving no there's no divorce. There's no moving no there's no divorce. There's no moving away. Same family, different role. Yeah. away. Same family, different role. Yeah. away. Same family, different role. Yeah. When you look back, Church of the When you look back, Church of the When you look back, Church of the Highlands, over your tenure. What is the Highlands, over your tenure. What is the Highlands, over your tenure. What is the best decision you made? It could be one best decision you made? It could be one best decision you made? It could be one that you made consistently every year. that you made consistently every year. that you made consistently every year. It could be like, "Hey, man, in year It could be like, "Hey, man, in year It could be like, "Hey, man, in year eight, I made this eight, I made this eight, I made this decision, didn't know about it at the decision, didn't know about it at the decision, didn't know about it at the time, turned out to be great." But you time, turned out to be great." But you time, turned out to be great." But you look back, what's the best decision you look back, what's the best decision you look back, what's the best decision you made? So, I let me give you two uh that made? So, I let me give you two uh that made? So, I let me give you two uh that people told me that won't work, too. And people told me that won't work, too. And people told me that won't work, too. And that was the that was the 21 days of that was the that was the 21 days of that was the that was the 21 days of prayer and fasting. I actually had prayer and fasting. I actually had prayer and fasting. I actually had mentors and people, even spiritual mentors and people, even spiritual mentors and people, even spiritual leaders, tell me, you can't start a new leaders, tell me, you can't start a new leaders, tell me, you can't start a new church and ask them to fast for 21 days.

church and ask them to fast for 21 days. church and ask them to fast for 21 days. And I just said, you're going to have to And I just said, you're going to have to And I just said, you're going to have to let me try because this is I I was going let me try because this is I I was going let me try because this is I I was going to build the church on a prayer and to build the church on a prayer and to build the church on a prayer and fasting culture. And and the part of our fasting culture. And and the part of our fasting culture. And and the part of our church that people who start to study us church that people who start to study us church that people who start to study us a little bit more deeply, that's the a little bit more deeply, that's the a little bit more deeply, that's the area they're most surprised to find. area they're most surprised to find. area they're most surprised to find. like we knew you were a praying church, like we knew you were a praying church, like we knew you were a praying church, but we didn't know how much until we got but we didn't know how much until we got but we didn't know how much until we got into this organization and saw like, into this organization and saw like, into this organization and saw like, wow, you guys are really serious about wow, you guys are really serious about wow, you guys are really serious about this. And it's deeper than most people this. And it's deeper than most people this. And it's deeper than most people even know. And and and I'm so grateful even know. And and and I'm so grateful even know. And and and I'm so grateful cuz I truly believe that was one of the cuz I truly believe that was one of the cuz I truly believe that was one of the best decisions we ever made uh was to best decisions we ever made uh was to best decisions we ever made uh was to build it on the foundation of prayer and build it on the foundation of prayer and build it on the foundation of prayer and fasting. The second would be how we fasting. The second would be how we fasting. The second would be how we handled money. I had I had mentors. I handled money. I had I had mentors. I handled money. I had I had mentors. I had I wanted you if I said their names, had I wanted you if I said their names, had I wanted you if I said their names, everyone on your podcast would know everyone on your podcast would know everyone on your podcast would know their names. Say, "You can't do it that their names. Say, "You can't do it that their names. Say, "You can't do it that way. That won't work that way." And I way. That won't work that way." And I way. That won't work that way." And I said, "You're gonna have to let me try." said, "You're gonna have to let me try." said, "You're gonna have to let me try." Was that the live off 90% rule? That was Was that the live off 90% rule? That was Was that the live off 90% rule? That was the that we were going to write it into the that we were going to write it into the that we were going to write it into the bylaws that a budget that budget was the bylaws that a budget that budget was the bylaws that a budget that budget was going to be 90% of the previous year's going to be 90% of the previous year's going to be 90% of the previous year's income. that we were going to set income. that we were going to set income. that we were going to set ceilings on buildings and salaries that ceilings on buildings and salaries that ceilings on buildings and salaries that were well below national averages so were well below national averages so were well below national averages so that we could create these margins so that we could create these margins so that we could create these margins so that we could so that we could take that we could so that we could take that we could so that we could take pressure off of the whole process that pressure off of the whole process that pressure off of the whole process that we would never have a building campaign we would never have a building campaign we would never have a building campaign fundraiser fundraiser fundraiser pledges you know that we were just I pledges you know that we were just I pledges you know that we were just I wanted to do it a different way. I I had wanted to do it a different way. I I had wanted to do it a different way. I I had this idea in my mind that it could be this idea in my mind that it could be this idea in my mind that it could be done a different way. And um and I and done a different way. And um and I and done a different way. And um and I and it was the one of the best decisions we it was the one of the best decisions we it was the one of the best decisions we ever made. Um because here we are 20

ever made. Um because here we are 20 ever made. Um because here we are 20 over 24 years later with, you know, all over 24 years later with, you know, all over 24 years later with, you know, all of our buildings paid for and and a of our buildings paid for and and a of our buildings paid for and and a we've given over $200 million, you know, we've given over $200 million, you know, we've given over $200 million, you know, to missions over these years. And it's to missions over these years. And it's to missions over these years. And it's just I'm just very very grateful um that just I'm just very very grateful um that just I'm just very very grateful um that we made that decision. Wow. Chris, what we made that decision. Wow. Chris, what we made that decision. Wow. Chris, what else do we need to talk about that we else do we need to talk about that we else do we need to talk about that we haven't touched on today? No. No. Um, you you you hit you hit them all, Um, you you you hit you hit them all, Um, you you you hit you hit them all, man. I'll tell you this makes me so man. I'll tell you this makes me so man. I'll tell you this makes me so happy that I get to do this. Like, and happy that I get to do this. Like, and happy that I get to do this. Like, and thank you for being so vulnerable. You thank you for being so vulnerable. You thank you for being so vulnerable. You read a lot of leaders mail, told their read a lot of leaders mail, told their read a lot of leaders mail, told their stories, and people can identify. I stories, and people can identify. I stories, and people can identify. I always believe people admire your always believe people admire your always believe people admire your strengths, but they identify with your strengths, but they identify with your strengths, but they identify with your weaknesses. So, thank you for being so weaknesses. So, thank you for being so weaknesses. So, thank you for being so transparent and thank you for modeling transparent and thank you for modeling transparent and thank you for modeling what I think history will prove to be an what I think history will prove to be an what I think history will prove to be an excellent succession. We need good excellent succession. We need good excellent succession. We need good precedents, not we have enough of the precedents, not we have enough of the precedents, not we have enough of the other ones. And I just want to thank you other ones. And I just want to thank you other ones. And I just want to thank you and Mark and your whole team at Church and Mark and your whole team at Church and Mark and your whole team at Church of the Highlands for everything. Thank of the Highlands for everything. Thank of the Highlands for everything. Thank you for Thank you for creating a you for Thank you for creating a you for Thank you for creating a platform where where we can tell our platform where where we can tell our platform where where we can tell our story. So, it means a lot. I'm grateful story. So, it means a lot. I'm grateful story. So, it means a lot. I'm grateful for your influence. Well, I'll tell you, for your influence. Well, I'll tell you, for your influence. Well, I'll tell you, it's a it's a humbling journey and a it's a it's a humbling journey and a it's a it's a humbling journey and a surprising one. So, people want to surprising one. So, people want to surprising one. So, people want to connect with your future work. They want connect with your future work. They want connect with your future work. They want to connect with Grow Leader or Highlands to connect with Grow Leader or Highlands to connect with Grow Leader or Highlands College. Uh, where's an easy place to College. Uh, where's an easy place to College. Uh, where's an easy place to track with that? I know you're big into track with that? I know you're big into track with that? I know you're big into social, so you probably got some social, so you probably got some social, so you probably got some announcements there. Well, please come announcements there. Well, please come announcements there. Well, please come visit our college cuz it it shows better visit our college cuz it it shows better visit our college cuz it it shows better than it tells. I mean, and it tells it than it tells. I mean, and it tells it than it tells. I mean, and it tells it tells well. I mean, it's a very special

tells well. I mean, it's a very special tells well. I mean, it's a very special place. And I would encourage every place. And I would encourage every place. And I would encourage every pastor uh and any prospective ministry pastor uh and any prospective ministry pastor uh and any prospective ministry uh student in your church that you think uh student in your church that you think uh student in your church that you think you see a call of God on their life, let you see a call of God on their life, let you see a call of God on their life, let put us on the list of colleges you would put us on the list of colleges you would put us on the list of colleges you would consider to let us uh train them up in consider to let us uh train them up in consider to let us uh train them up in ministry. So, visit it. Of course, the ministry. So, visit it. Of course, the ministry. So, visit it. Of course, the website there is website there is website there is highlandscol.edu and uh you can see all highlandscol.edu and uh you can see all highlandscol.edu and uh you can see all things Highlands College. And then yeah, things Highlands College. And then yeah, things Highlands College. And then yeah, growleer.com is my my effort to pour my growleer.com is my my effort to pour my growleer.com is my my effort to pour my life into the lives of churches and life into the lives of churches and life into the lives of churches and pastors to help them reach their full pastors to help them reach their full pastors to help them reach their full potential. Chris, it's been a delight. potential. Chris, it's been a delight. potential. Chris, it's been a delight. Thank you. Thank you, Carrie.