Are You Becoming a Bitter Leader? How to Break the Cycle with Father Ron Rolheiser & John Mark Comer

said, "When you're 40 years old," he said, "When you're 40 years old," he said, "you realize your mother did love said, "you realize your mother did love said, "you realize your mother did love your sister better than you." [laughter] your sister better than you." [laughter] your sister better than you." [laughter] And you need to forgive that. And you need to forgive that. And you need to forgive that. >> There's stuff to forgive. That's when >> There's stuff to forgive. That's when >> There's stuff to forgive. That's when you're [laughter] you're [laughter] you're [laughter] >> And then you have to forgive life and >> And then you have to forgive life and >> And then you have to forgive life and God because it isn't fair. God because it isn't fair. God because it isn't fair. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. Man, you're in for a Leadership Podcast. Man, you're in for a Leadership Podcast. Man, you're in for a treat today. We have Father Ronald treat today. We have Father Ronald treat today. We have Father Ronald Rollhiser, a Roman Catholic priest, Rollhiser, a Roman Catholic priest, Rollhiser, a Roman Catholic priest, spiritual director, theologian, and John spiritual director, theologian, and John spiritual director, theologian, and John Mark Comr joining me today to talk about Mark Comr joining me today to talk about Mark Comr joining me today to talk about grieving your ministry wounds, getting grieving your ministry wounds, getting grieving your ministry wounds, getting past bitterness, and giving your life past bitterness, and giving your life past bitterness, and giving your life and death away. Basically, the different and death away. Basically, the different and death away. Basically, the different stages of life from young man to stages of life from young man to stages of life from young man to middleage to the last few decades middleage to the last few decades middleage to the last few decades [music] of life. And I I got this I'll [music] of life. And I I got this I'll [music] of life. And I I got this I'll give you the backstory. We talked about give you the backstory. We talked about give you the backstory. We talked about it a little bit, but I was with John it a little bit, but I was with John it a little bit, but I was with John Mark Homer uh to record a podcast Mark Homer uh to record a podcast Mark Homer uh to record a podcast episode. He said, "Have you read Insane episode. He said, "Have you read Insane episode. He said, "Have you read Insane for the Light? It's incredible." So went for the Light? It's incredible." So went for the Light? It's incredible." So went and ordered it, texted John Mark and and ordered it, texted John Mark and and ordered it, texted John Mark and said, "Man, this is one of the best said, "Man, this is one of the best said, "Man, this is one of the best books." Having just turned 60 last year, books." Having just turned 60 last year, books." Having just turned 60 last year, I said, "This is one of the best books I said, "This is one of the best books I said, "This is one of the best books I've read in ages." Underlined so much I've read in ages." Underlined so much I've read in ages." Underlined so much of it. John Mark said, "Why don't we do of it. John Mark said, "Why don't we do of it. John Mark said, "Why don't we do the interview of Father Ron together?"

the interview of Father Ron together?" the interview of Father Ron together?" I'm like, "Yes, let's do it." So he I'm like, "Yes, let's do it." So he I'm like, "Yes, let's do it." So he apologizes for coming [laughter] on my apologizes for coming [laughter] on my apologizes for coming [laughter] on my podcast a few times. He made the podcast a few times. He made the podcast a few times. He made the conversation so much richer and you're conversation so much richer and you're conversation so much richer and you're going to learn from John Mark as well as going to learn from John Mark as well as going to learn from John Mark as well as from Father Ronald Rollheiser. So, from Father Ronald Rollheiser. So, from Father Ronald Rollheiser. So, Father Ronald Rollheiser is a Roman Father Ronald Rollheiser is a Roman Father Ronald Rollheiser is a Roman Catholic priest, a member of the Catholic priest, a member of the Catholic priest, a member of the missionary obblelets of Mary Immaculate. missionary obblelets of Mary Immaculate. missionary obblelets of Mary Immaculate. He's a theologian, a popular spiritual He's a theologian, a popular spiritual He's a theologian, a popular spiritual writer, and internationally syndicated writer, and internationally syndicated writer, and internationally syndicated columnist. He is widely regarded as one columnist. He is widely regarded as one columnist. He is widely regarded as one of the most contemporary accessible of the most contemporary accessible of the most contemporary accessible Catholic voices on spirituality, prayer, Catholic voices on spirituality, prayer, Catholic voices on spirituality, prayer, longing, suffering, and aging. He served longing, suffering, and aging. He served longing, suffering, and aging. He served as the president of the Obllet School of as the president of the Obllet School of as the president of the Obllet School of Theology in San Antonio, Texas from 2005 Theology in San Antonio, Texas from 2005 Theology in San Antonio, Texas from 2005 to 2020 and remains there as a full-time to 2020 and remains there as a full-time to 2020 and remains there as a full-time professor of spirituality. And he professor of spirituality. And he professor of spirituality. And he reveals us at the end he did this reveals us at the end he did this reveals us at the end he did this conversation while he was in the midst conversation while he was in the midst conversation while he was in the midst of chemotherapy for a long-term cancer of chemotherapy for a long-term cancer of chemotherapy for a long-term cancer that he has had for many, many years. that he has had for many, many years. that he has had for many, many years. So, pretty remarkable conversation. So, pretty remarkable conversation. So, pretty remarkable conversation. Also, John Mark Comr. I mean, come on, Also, John Mark Comr. I mean, come on, Also, John Mark Comr. I mean, come on, he doesn't need an introduction. former he doesn't need an introduction. former he doesn't need an introduction. former pastor, uh, theologian, writer, and, uh, pastor, uh, theologian, writer, and, uh, pastor, uh, theologian, writer, and, uh, well, the writing of so many great books well, the writing of so many great books well, the writing of so many great books like P practicing the way and the like P practicing the way and the like P practicing the way and the ruthless Elimination of Hurry. He's got ruthless Elimination of Hurry. He's got ruthless Elimination of Hurry. He's got a new one coming out this fall. So, we a new one coming out this fall. So, we a new one coming out this fall. So, we dive into all of these things. If you're dive into all of these things. If you're dive into all of these things. If you're brand new to the podcast, welcome. Just brand new to the podcast, welcome. Just brand new to the podcast, welcome. Just hit follow wherever you're watching hit follow wherever you're watching hit follow wherever you're watching this. And now for my conversation with this. And now for my conversation with this. And now for my conversation with Father Ronald Rollhiser and John Mark Father Ronald Rollhiser and John Mark Father Ronald Rollhiser and John Mark Comr.

Comr. Comr. Well, Carrie, I am incredibly happy to Well, Carrie, I am incredibly happy to Well, Carrie, I am incredibly happy to introduce you to a hero of mine. They introduce you to a hero of mine. They introduce you to a hero of mine. They say never meet your heroes, but say never meet your heroes, but say never meet your heroes, but honestly, that's not really been my honestly, that's not really been my honestly, that's not really been my experience. There's been a few that were experience. There's been a few that were experience. There's been a few that were a colossal let down, but by the grace of a colossal let down, but by the grace of a colossal let down, but by the grace of God, most people that have imprinted at God, most people that have imprinted at God, most people that have imprinted at some level on my spirituality and that some level on my spirituality and that some level on my spirituality and that deep part of us, you know, our view of deep part of us, you know, our view of deep part of us, you know, our view of God and our view of ourselves with God God and our view of ourselves with God God and our view of ourselves with God >> have been an honor to meet in person. >> have been an honor to meet in person. >> have been an honor to meet in person. and one is Father Rollheiser here. And and one is Father Rollheiser here. And and one is Father Rollheiser here. And uh Father Ron, I was introduced to your uh Father Ron, I was introduced to your uh Father Ron, I was introduced to your work I think many years ago like a bunch work I think many years ago like a bunch work I think many years ago like a bunch of people. I read The Holy Longing, of people. I read The Holy Longing, of people. I read The Holy Longing, which I believe is that your bestselling which I believe is that your bestselling which I believe is that your bestselling book. Am I right about that? book. Am I right about that? book. Am I right about that? >> Yes, it's the best seller. >> Yes, it's the best seller. >> Yes, it's the best seller. >> And I remember loving it. It was great, >> And I remember loving it. It was great, >> And I remember loving it. It was great, but it kind of read to me like one of but it kind of read to me like one of but it kind of read to me like one of many great books I've read over my life. many great books I've read over my life. many great books I've read over my life. I read a lot. And it wasn't until I I read a lot. And it wasn't until I I read a lot. And it wasn't until I stumbled upon your followup to that stumbled upon your followup to that stumbled upon your followup to that sacred fire sacred fire sacred fire that it became like one of those before that it became like one of those before that it became like one of those before after moments. There's just a few after moments. There's just a few after moments. There's just a few writers [clears throat] in my life.

writers [clears throat] in my life. writers [clears throat] in my life. Awtoer, Awtoer, Awtoer, Dallas Willard, Henry Nen, you, Jacqu Dallas Willard, Henry Nen, you, Jacqu Dallas Willard, Henry Nen, you, Jacqu Phipe, where it's like once I discover Phipe, where it's like once I discover Phipe, where it's like once I discover their writings, I just devour everything their writings, I just devour everything their writings, I just devour everything they've ever said or done or written and they've ever said or done or written and they've ever said or done or written and it has this indelible imprint on a deep, it has this indelible imprint on a deep, it has this indelible imprint on a deep, deep part of my being. and discovering deep part of my being. and discovering deep part of my being. and discovering your writings were that for me in your writings were that for me in your writings were that for me in particular the way that you merge particular the way that you merge particular the way that you merge spirituality and Christian disciplehip spirituality and Christian disciplehip spirituality and Christian disciplehip with the stages of life and human with the stages of life and human with the stages of life and human development and seasons and I'd love to development and seasons and I'd love to development and seasons and I'd love to hear more about that and your book hear more about that and your book hear more about that and your book Sacred Fire which is all about you know Sacred Fire which is all about you know Sacred Fire which is all about you know disciplehip in the long middle years of disciplehip in the long middle years of disciplehip in the long middle years of your life uh which it hit me I think I your life uh which it hit me I think I your life uh which it hit me I think I read it when I was like late 30s or read it when I was like late 30s or read it when I was like late 30s or whatever as a pastor of a large church whatever as a pastor of a large church whatever as a pastor of a large church with three three kids just the mortgage with three three kids just the mortgage with three three kids just the mortgage like I'd been through that kind of like I'd been through that kind of like I'd been through that kind of initial mountain and I was just tired initial mountain and I was just tired initial mountain and I was just tired and so I was ready to hear it. And I and so I was ready to hear it. And I and so I was ready to hear it. And I honestly, Father Ron, I read that book honestly, Father Ron, I read that book honestly, Father Ron, I read that book every single summer on vacation. I have every single summer on vacation. I have every single summer on vacation. I have read it so many times. I probably bought read it so many times. I probably bought read it so many times. I probably bought a hundred copies. You likely owe me some a hundred copies. You likely owe me some a hundred copies. You likely owe me some royalties on that for how many I have royalties on that for how many I have royalties on that for how many I have passed off to friends. But then, you passed off to friends. But then, you passed off to friends. But then, you know, the rumor was there was going to know, the rumor was there was going to know, the rumor was there was going to be a trilogy. Holy longing part one, be a trilogy. Holy longing part one, be a trilogy. Holy longing part one, early disciplehip, Sacred Fire part two, early disciplehip, Sacred Fire part two, early disciplehip, Sacred Fire part two, middle disciplehip and then some book on middle disciplehip and then some book on middle disciplehip and then some book on kind of latest stage disciplehip in your kind of latest stage disciplehip in your kind of latest stage disciplehip in your last years. And we waited for how many last years. And we waited for how many last years. And we waited for how many years between sacred fire and years between sacred fire and years between sacred fire and >> your most recent work?

>> your most recent work? >> your most recent work? >> 10 12 years. It was a long 10 12 years. >> 10 12 years. It was a long 10 12 years. >> 10 12 years. It was a long 10 12 years. And so I'm so happy it's out and I got And so I'm so happy it's out and I got And so I'm so happy it's out and I got to last time I was with you Carrie to last time I was with you Carrie to last time I was with you Carrie recommend Father Ron's work and recommend Father Ron's work and recommend Father Ron's work and recommend that book to you. So that's recommend that book to you. So that's recommend that book to you. So that's that's the connection I wanted to make. that's the connection I wanted to make. that's the connection I wanted to make. I just feel like you two should know I just feel like you two should know I just feel like you two should know each other. The world should know what each other. The world should know what each other. The world should know what Father Ron is saying and writing and the Father Ron is saying and writing and the Father Ron is saying and writing and the gift he is to the church. Carrie, I know gift he is to the church. Carrie, I know gift he is to the church. Carrie, I know the book for you was a was a gift, the book for you was a was a gift, the book for you was a was a gift, right? right? right? >> It's humbling to hear that. >> It's humbling to hear that. >> It's humbling to hear that. >> I have a a stack of books from our last >> I have a a stack of books from our last >> I have a a stack of books from our last time together at your place, John Mark, time together at your place, John Mark, time together at your place, John Mark, that I'm reading through. This one, that I'm reading through. This one, that I'm reading through. This one, Insane for the Light. I had a big Insane for the Light. I had a big Insane for the Light. I had a big birthday last year, 60, and it I read it birthday last year, 60, and it I read it birthday last year, 60, and it I read it and I think there's more underlined in and I think there's more underlined in and I think there's more underlined in the book that is not underlined. And I the book that is not underlined. And I the book that is not underlined. And I won't let my wife have it yet because won't let my wife have it yet because won't let my wife have it yet because I'm taking detailed notes on it. And you I'm taking detailed notes on it. And you I'm taking detailed notes on it. And you gave me a framework for this last third gave me a framework for this last third gave me a framework for this last third of life, if you could call it that, or of life, if you could call it that, or of life, if you could call it that, or this this, you know, stage that I'm this this, you know, stage that I'm this this, you know, stage that I'm entering into. And I think it's fun, entering into. And I think it's fun, entering into. And I think it's fun, John Mark, that you know, you're coming John Mark, that you know, you're coming John Mark, that you know, you're coming from the middle years and I'm coming from the middle years and I'm coming from the middle years and I'm coming from the beginning of later years.

from the beginning of later years. from the beginning of later years. >> And um it's just it's just fascinating >> And um it's just it's just fascinating >> And um it's just it's just fascinating to think about a theology of aging in a to think about a theology of aging in a to think about a theology of aging in a way that I never had before. way that I never had before. way that I never had before. >> So I just want to say thank you so much >> So I just want to say thank you so much >> So I just want to say thank you so much for what you do, Father Ron. I'm so glad for what you do, Father Ron. I'm so glad for what you do, Father Ron. I'm so glad I got introduced. I had heard your name, I got introduced. I had heard your name, I got introduced. I had heard your name, but then you have certain people in your but then you have certain people in your but then you have certain people in your life that when they say no, you have to life that when they say no, you have to life that when they say no, you have to read it, you just go by the book and you read it, you just go by the book and you read it, you just go by the book and you read it. And when you said it, John read it. And when you said it, John read it. And when you said it, John Mark, I'm like, "Yeah, okay." And then I Mark, I'm like, "Yeah, okay." And then I Mark, I'm like, "Yeah, okay." And then I texted you and you were like, "I'm so texted you and you were like, "I'm so texted you and you were like, "I'm so glad you loved it. Why don't the glad you loved it. Why don't the glad you loved it. Why don't the interview together?" I'm like, "Yes, interview together?" I'm like, "Yes, interview together?" I'm like, "Yes, let's do it." So presumptuous of me, let's do it." So presumptuous of me, let's do it." So presumptuous of me, >> but >> but >> but >> no, it's not presumptuous. You get to >> no, it's not presumptuous. You get to >> no, it's not presumptuous. You get to you get to hijack this thing whenever you get to hijack this thing whenever you get to hijack this thing whenever you want. It's great. you want. It's great. you want. It's great. >> Anything I can to uh to sound the lovely >> Anything I can to uh to sound the lovely >> Anything I can to uh to sound the lovely bell of the work of Father Ron. You bell of the work of Father Ron. You bell of the work of Father Ron. You know, Father Ron, maybe to start our know, Father Ron, maybe to start our know, Father Ron, maybe to start our conversation, would you explain for conversation, would you explain for conversation, would you explain for listeners, in particular, for those that listeners, in particular, for those that listeners, in particular, for those that are not yet familiar with your work, why are not yet familiar with your work, why are not yet familiar with your work, why you write about disciplehip in the you write about disciplehip in the you write about disciplehip in the various stages of life and how it's various stages of life and how it's various stages of life and how it's different when you're a 21-year-old different when you're a 21-year-old different when you're a 21-year-old college student, then a 44 year old college student, then a 44 year old college student, then a 44 year old middle-aged person, then a 60-year-old, middle-aged person, then a 60-year-old, middle-aged person, then a 60-year-old, then an 84 year old. and how we need to then an 84 year old. and how we need to then an 84 year old. and how we need to think about the congruence between our think about the congruence between our think about the congruence between our age and stage and our disciplehip to age and stage and our disciplehip to age and stage and our disciplehip to Jesus. Why why does that why does that Jesus. Why why does that why does that Jesus. Why why does that why does that matter? Why is it not just the same matter? Why is it not just the same matter? Why is it not just the same thing all the way down?

thing all the way down? thing all the way down? >> Okay, very interesting. It's interest >> Okay, very interesting. It's interest >> Okay, very interesting. It's interest like Jesus didn't tailor this his um like Jesus didn't tailor this his um like Jesus didn't tailor this his um teaching. This is for kids. This is for teaching. This is for kids. This is for teaching. This is for kids. This is for young kids and so on. Jesus just taught. young kids and so on. Jesus just taught. young kids and so on. Jesus just taught. So we have the scriptures but the So we have the scriptures but the So we have the scriptures but the difference is we hear them in very difference is we hear them in very difference is we hear them in very different stages of our life. For it's different stages of our life. For it's different stages of our life. For it's one thing to hear the sermon on the one thing to hear the sermon on the one thing to hear the sermon on the mount when you're 17 years old. It's mount when you're 17 years old. It's mount when you're 17 years old. It's another thing to heard when you're 27 another thing to heard when you're 27 another thing to heard when you're 27 years old. Some different when you're 77 years old. Some different when you're 77 years old. Some different when you're 77 years old. years old. years old. >> It's the same teaching but it but it um >> It's the same teaching but it but it um >> It's the same teaching but it but it um impacts you very differently. Um and um impacts you very differently. Um and um impacts you very differently. Um and um it it's interesting um in in it it's interesting um in in it it's interesting um in in Christianity we we've never we've always Christianity we we've never we've always Christianity we we've never we've always tailored like Sunday school for younger tailored like Sunday school for younger tailored like Sunday school for younger kids and so on, but we haven't had a kids and so on, but we haven't had a kids and so on, but we haven't had a Sunday school for midlife and especially Sunday school for midlife and especially Sunday school for midlife and especially we haven't had Sunday school for aging we haven't had Sunday school for aging we haven't had Sunday school for aging and dying, you know. and dying, you know. and dying, you know. >> Oh, interesting. So So we tailor the >> Oh, interesting. So So we tailor the >> Oh, interesting. So So we tailor the message if you're message if you're message if you're >> Sorry. >> Sorry. >> Sorry. >> No, I'm just saying. So we tailor the >> No, I'm just saying. So we tailor the >> No, I'm just saying. So we tailor the message. You're saying if you're a message. You're saying if you're a message. You're saying if you're a second grader or a high schooler or second grader or a high schooler or second grader or a high schooler or maybe a young adult, maybe a young adult, maybe a young adult, >> but once you're kind of in your 20s, you >> but once you're kind of in your 20s, you >> but once you're kind of in your 20s, you all get the same message from 22 to 92 all get the same message from 22 to 92 all get the same message from 22 to 92 is what you're saying.

is what you're saying. is what you're saying. >> No, no, no. Then it changes, you know. >> No, no, no. Then it changes, you know. >> No, no, no. Then it changes, you know. So, let me give you a concrete example. So, let me give you a concrete example. So, let me give you a concrete example. I was preaching once in a church in I was preaching once in a church in I was preaching once in a church in Edmonton and the text was, you know, Edmonton and the text was, you know, Edmonton and the text was, you know, where Jesus visits Martha and Mary and where Jesus visits Martha and Mary and where Jesus visits Martha and Mary and uh Martha's upset, you know, and I'm uh Martha's upset, you know, and I'm uh Martha's upset, you know, and I'm doing all the work and Jesus says, you doing all the work and Jesus says, you doing all the work and Jesus says, you know, she's Mary has chosen the better know, she's Mary has chosen the better know, she's Mary has chosen the better part. And for the homaly, I quoted part. And for the homaly, I quoted part. And for the homaly, I quoted Mother Teresa and Henry Nan both have Mother Teresa and Henry Nan both have Mother Teresa and Henry Nan both have written eloquently on that. So, Mother written eloquently on that. So, Mother written eloquently on that. So, Mother Teresa says, "In life, you don't need to Teresa says, "In life, you don't need to Teresa says, "In life, you don't need to be successful, you only need to be be successful, you only need to be be successful, you only need to be faithful." And you remember remember faithful." And you remember remember faithful." And you remember remember Henry Nan says we um um success it's Henry Nan says we um um success it's Henry Nan says we um um success it's like a cancer. You have to keep doing like a cancer. You have to keep doing like a cancer. You have to keep doing it. So they say you have to take your it. So they say you have to take your it. So they say you have to take your your selfimage from whom you are not your selfimage from whom you are not your selfimage from whom you are not from what you do. Well that should have from what you do. Well that should have from what you do. Well that should have been safe but it wasn't to back at been safe but it wasn't to back at been safe but it wasn't to back at church and the man says father have you church and the man says father have you church and the man says father have you ever wondered about Mother Teresa and ever wondered about Mother Teresa and ever wondered about Mother Teresa and Henry Nan how they say ought to be Henry Nan how they say ought to be Henry Nan how they say ought to be successful when they're hugely successful when they're hugely successful when they're hugely successful successful successful to won the Nobel Peace Prize. Now I to won the Nobel Peace Prize. Now I to won the Nobel Peace Prize. Now I wrote 70 books and said he said um it's wrote 70 books and said he said um it's wrote 70 books and said he said um it's easy to do that once you've achieve said easy to do that once you've achieve said easy to do that once you've achieve said what how do I take a self-image of a big what how do I take a self-image of a big what how do I take a self-image of a big fat nobody that's a good point you know fat nobody that's a good point you know fat nobody that's a good point you know >> see what mother trees and stuff that is >> see what mother trees and stuff that is >> see what mother trees and stuff that is true for second half of life it's not so true for second half of life it's not so true for second half of life it's not so true for the first half of life so we true for the first half of life so we true for the first half of life so we have parables like Jesus the parable of have parables like Jesus the parable of have parables like Jesus the parable of the talents if you don't use your the talents if you don't use your the talents if you don't use your talents they're going to eat you up you talents they're going to eat you up you talents they're going to eat you up you know know know >> see so that um it so it's important that >> see so that um it so it's important that >> see so that um it so it's important that you know

you know you know the the message changes as we get older the the message changes as we get older the the message changes as we get older and the structure John Mark I got from and the structure John Mark I got from and the structure John Mark I got from actually John of the cross the mystic actually John of the cross the mystic actually John of the cross the mystic John the cross says there's three really John the cross says there's three really John the cross says there's three really clear distinct periods in your life and clear distinct periods in your life and clear distinct periods in your life and they also fit anthropologically and they also fit anthropologically and they also fit anthropologically and psychologically you know kind of like I psychologically you know kind of like I psychologically you know kind of like I always say that the first stage you need always say that the first stage you need always say that the first stage you need to get your life together you know and to get your life together you know and to get your life together you know and usually that happens into your 20s and usually that happens into your 20s and usually that happens into your 20s and so on but then you have about 50 years so on but then you have about 50 years so on but then you have about 50 years where you have to give your life away where you have to give your life away where you have to give your life away you know the middle years that's the you know the middle years that's the you know the middle years that's the years you're in but then that's we used years you're in but then that's we used years you're in but then that's we used to stop spirituality but you also have to stop spirituality but you also have to stop spirituality but you also have to give your death away you there's a to give your death away you there's a to give your death away you there's a way you have to die that's the last book way you have to die that's the last book way you have to die that's the last book you know and um so that's the structure you know and um so that's the structure you know and um so that's the structure I'm coming out of John Mark I'm coming out of John Mark I'm coming out of John Mark >> so three stages of life that you're >> so three stages of life that you're >> so three stages of life that you're drawing loosely from St. John of the drawing loosely from St. John of the drawing loosely from St. John of the Cross and Scripture. Stage one, getting Cross and Scripture. Stage one, getting Cross and Scripture. Stage one, getting your life together. your life together. your life together. That's where my 20-year-old son is right That's where my 20-year-old son is right That's where my 20-year-old son is right now who's trying to figure out what now who's trying to figure out what now who's trying to figure out what career do I do, who will I marry, how do career do I do, who will I marry, how do career do I do, who will I marry, how do I manage my money, you know, [laughter] I manage my money, you know, [laughter] I manage my money, you know, [laughter] how do I take care of, you know, car how do I take care of, you know, car how do I take care of, you know, car insurance. Then stage two is giving your insurance. Then stage two is giving your insurance. Then stage two is giving your life away. That's the stage I'm in. Long life away. That's the stage I'm in. Long life away. That's the stage I'm in. Long decades of generativity. You're a dad, decades of generativity. You're a dad, decades of generativity. You're a dad, you're a mom, you're an employee, you're you're a mom, you're an employee, you're you're a mom, you're an employee, you're a leader. And then is giving your death a leader. And then is giving your death a leader. And then is giving your death away. And that's what your latest book away. And that's what your latest book away. And that's what your latest book is about.

is about. is about. >> Yeah. It's interesting is is some of the >> Yeah. It's interesting is is some of the >> Yeah. It's interesting is is some of the importance of this, Father Ron, simply importance of this, Father Ron, simply importance of this, Father Ron, simply that statistically most of us are living that statistically most of us are living that statistically most of us are living so much longer. You know, I meet with so much longer. You know, I meet with so much longer. You know, I meet with three other guys three other guys three other guys uh every other week for kind of uh every other week for kind of uh every other week for kind of confession and really deep conversation. confession and really deep conversation. confession and really deep conversation. We go through John Wesley's five We go through John Wesley's five We go through John Wesley's five questions every week and we were all questions every week and we were all questions every week and we were all together just kind of talking about how together just kind of talking about how together just kind of talking about how we're all we're all about the same age. we're all we're all about the same age. we're all we're all about the same age. a couple of guys are a bit older than me a couple of guys are a bit older than me a couple of guys are a bit older than me in their early 50s and how we're in their early 50s and how we're in their early 50s and how we're struggling like with motivation and we struggling like with motivation and we struggling like with motivation and we realized there's like a stage thing. We realized there's like a stage thing. We realized there's like a stage thing. We were all laughing because we realized were all laughing because we realized were all laughing because we realized for most of human history we'd all be for most of human history we'd all be for most of human history we'd all be dead by now. Some of us were trying to dead by now. Some of us were trying to dead by now. Some of us were trying to figure out what to do with the rest of figure out what to do with the rest of figure out what to do with the rest of our life, you know. We're like this is a our life, you know. We're like this is a our life, you know. We're like this is a new problem. We're four guys sitting new problem. We're four guys sitting new problem. We're four guys sitting around in our 40s or 50s. For most of around in our 40s or 50s. For most of around in our 40s or 50s. For most of human history, we'd all be dead, you human history, we'd all be dead, you human history, we'd all be dead, you know. So, does that make this an acute know. So, does that make this an acute know. So, does that make this an acute problem for people with the gift of problem for people with the gift of problem for people with the gift of longevity? longevity? longevity? when you put your finger on it, you when you put your finger on it, you when you put your finger on it, you know, let let me just go back. It's know, let let me just go back. It's know, let let me just go back. It's interesting in 19 no in in 1819 or 18 interesting in 19 no in in 1819 or 18 interesting in 19 no in in 1819 or 18 100 years ago, you know, um the average 100 years ago, you know, um the average 100 years ago, you know, um the average age in North America was 50.

age in North America was 50. age in North America was 50. So when you're dying at 50, you don't So when you're dying at 50, you don't So when you're dying at 50, you don't need much of a spirituality for old age, need much of a spirituality for old age, need much of a spirituality for old age, you know, but today a lot of people are you know, but today a lot of people are you know, but today a lot of people are retiring in their 50s and living 25 or retiring in their 50s and living 25 or retiring in their 50s and living 25 or 30 years of healthy life. 30 years of healthy life. 30 years of healthy life. >> So what are those years for? Like right >> So what are those years for? Like right >> So what are those years for? Like right now, for instance, John Mark, you're in now, for instance, John Mark, you're in now, for instance, John Mark, you're in your generative years. You have family your generative years. You have family your generative years. You have family to raise. You have ministry to do, but to raise. You have ministry to do, but to raise. You have ministry to do, but someday you're going to retire. You're someday you're going to retire. You're someday you're going to retire. You're going to be a grandfather and you may going to be a grandfather and you may going to be a grandfather and you may have 25 years of that. What are they have 25 years of that. What are they have 25 years of that. What are they for? What do you do then spiritually, for? What do you do then spiritually, for? What do you do then spiritually, >> you know? >> you know? >> you know? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's my >> Yeah. Because we keep doing But suppose >> Yeah. Because we keep doing But suppose you're a car salesman, you retire, like you're a car salesman, you retire, like you're a car salesman, you retire, like what do you do? You know, what do you do? You know, what do you do? You know, >> I've got parents who have been retired >> I've got parents who have been retired >> I've got parents who have been retired now for 20 years. They were now for 20 years. They were now for 20 years. They were entrepreneurs. They ran a business entrepreneurs. They ran a business entrepreneurs. They ran a business together, a tool and mold shop, and uh together, a tool and mold shop, and uh together, a tool and mold shop, and uh they shut down the business in 2005. So, they shut down the business in 2005. So, they shut down the business in 2005. So, they have been retired for 21 years. And they have been retired for 21 years. And they have been retired for 21 years. And it's really interesting to watch what it's really interesting to watch what it's really interesting to watch what happens, you know, my wife's parents as happens, you know, my wife's parents as happens, you know, my wife's parents as well to see, oh yeah, like I mean, I well to see, oh yeah, like I mean, I well to see, oh yeah, like I mean, I think the reason that they made old old think the reason that they made old old think the reason that they made old old age like social security available at 65 age like social security available at 65 age like social security available at 65 is because the math was you're probably is because the math was you're probably is because the math was you're probably going to be dead by 67. So here's two going to be dead by 67. So here's two going to be dead by 67. So here's two years of payout and here we are years of payout and here we are years of payout and here we are generations later and there's 20 years generations later and there's 20 years generations later and there's 20 years of payout. And when I hit 60 uh in 20 of payout. And when I hit 60 uh in 20 of payout. And when I hit 60 uh in 20 25, 25, 25, I really started to ask questions like I really started to ask questions like I really started to ask questions like it felt different than 50. One of the

it felt different than 50. One of the it felt different than 50. One of the points I think that that really points I think that that really points I think that that really intrigued me, Father Ron, was you you intrigued me, Father Ron, was you you intrigued me, Father Ron, was you you sort of poke at transhumanism and this sort of poke at transhumanism and this sort of poke at transhumanism and this idea that 70 is the new 30, like you can idea that 70 is the new 30, like you can idea that 70 is the new 30, like you can only do so much cosmetic surgery, you only do so much cosmetic surgery, you only do so much cosmetic surgery, you can only be so fit. And this is a big can only be so fit. And this is a big can only be so fit. And this is a big moment we're having in the culture right moment we're having in the culture right moment we're having in the culture right now. Like if you look at the tech now. Like if you look at the tech now. Like if you look at the tech billionaires, what are they all trying billionaires, what are they all trying billionaires, what are they all trying to do? Colonize Mars, satellites into to do? Colonize Mars, satellites into to do? Colonize Mars, satellites into space and live forever. Cuz there's not space and live forever. Cuz there's not space and live forever. Cuz there's not when you're worth a trillion dollars, when you're worth a trillion dollars, when you're worth a trillion dollars, what is there left to conquer except what is there left to conquer except what is there left to conquer except death itself? But the whole culture death itself? But the whole culture death itself? But the whole culture seems to be on this like, okay, the only seems to be on this like, okay, the only seems to be on this like, okay, the only frame we have for this is 70 is the new frame we have for this is 70 is the new frame we have for this is 70 is the new 40, 80 is the new 50 or whatever. And 40, 80 is the new 50 or whatever. And 40, 80 is the new 50 or whatever. And listen, I'm all into being as fit as I listen, I'm all into being as fit as I listen, I'm all into being as fit as I can be. I work out a few times a week. I can be. I work out a few times a week. I can be. I work out a few times a week. I try to eat sensibly. But what's wrong try to eat sensibly. But what's wrong try to eat sensibly. But what's wrong with that view of of aging? with that view of of aging? with that view of of aging? >> Well, that's a tricky question. So, I >> Well, that's a tricky question. So, I >> Well, that's a tricky question. So, I don't want to give you any answer. You don't want to give you any answer. You don't want to give you any answer. You know, um there's nothing wrong with know, um there's nothing wrong with know, um there's nothing wrong with trying to stay young, with trying to trying to stay young, with trying to trying to stay young, with trying to stay attractive, with trying to stay stay attractive, with trying to stay stay attractive, with trying to stay healthy, you know, and I say that, you healthy, you know, and I say that, you healthy, you know, and I say that, you know, Freud insight on Freud. Freud's know, Freud insight on Freud. Freud's know, Freud insight on Freud. Freud's see Freud said, "You understand things see Freud said, "You understand things see Freud said, "You understand things best when you see them broken." So, for best when you see them broken." So, for best when you see them broken." So, for instance, the first sign of clinical instance, the first sign of clinical instance, the first sign of clinical depression is people don't care. You depression is people don't care. You depression is people don't care. You don't care what you look like. You don't don't care what you look like. You don't don't care what you look like. You don't care you see. So there's a certain care you see. So there's a certain care you see. So there's a certain health to that. But then everything can health to that. But then everything can health to that. But then everything can be taken too far, you know. Um like you be taken too far, you know. Um like you be taken too far, you know. Um like you know in the book I talk about which is know in the book I talk about which is know in the book I talk about which is an image I got from Richard Roar where an image I got from Richard Roar where an image I got from Richard Roar where he said like um when you reach 70 and he said like um when you reach 70 and he said like um when you reach 70 and men and women reach 70 little different

men and women reach 70 little different men and women reach 70 little different backgrounds you know but when you reach backgrounds you know but when you reach backgrounds you know but when you reach 70 you're on the same plateau and he 70 you're on the same plateau and he 70 you're on the same plateau and he said you have three options available to said you have three options available to said you have three options available to you. You can become a pathetic old you. You can become a pathetic old you. You can become a pathetic old person, you become a bitter old person, person, you become a bitter old person, person, you become a bitter old person, or you can become a holy old person. And or you can become a holy old person. And or you can become a holy old person. And I think he nails it. See, the pathetic I think he nails it. See, the pathetic I think he nails it. See, the pathetic old person is you're trying to stay old person is you're trying to stay old person is you're trying to stay young at all costs, you know, and it's young at all costs, you know, and it's young at all costs, you know, and it's not going to work forever, you know. not going to work forever, you know. not going to work forever, you know. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Um the and then said the bitter old Um the and then said the bitter old Um the and then said the bitter old person, that's somebody who's they're person, that's somebody who's they're person, that's somebody who's they're angry. Life is for the young people and angry. Life is for the young people and angry. Life is for the young people and so on and I'm going to die an angry so on and I'm going to die an angry so on and I'm going to die an angry person. person. person. the only other option is a holy old foe. the only other option is a holy old foe. the only other option is a holy old foe. It's interesting um um that those are It's interesting um um that those are It's interesting um um that those are the only three options. the only three options. the only three options. If you're not going to be holy, you're If you're not going to be holy, you're If you're not going to be holy, you're either going to be bitter or pathetic um either going to be bitter or pathetic um either going to be bitter or pathetic um as you get older. as you get older. as you get older. >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the art of preaching. So, preachers, if art of preaching. So, preachers, if art of preaching. So, preachers, if you've been writing sermons on Saturday you've been writing sermons on Saturday you've been writing sermons on Saturday night, you're fumbling for your notes at night, you're fumbling for your notes at night, you're fumbling for your notes at the pulpit on Sunday morning, or all you the pulpit on Sunday morning, or all you the pulpit on Sunday morning, or all you do is replay mistakes in your head at do is replay mistakes in your head at do is replay mistakes in your head at 2:00 a.m. while you're [laughter] 2:00 a.m. while you're [laughter] 2:00 a.m. while you're [laughter] trying to recover from what you did. I trying to recover from what you did. I trying to recover from what you did. I get it. I've been there. And the good get it. I've been there. And the good get it. I've been there. And the good news is that The Art of Preaching is news is that The Art of Preaching is news is that The Art of Preaching is here to help. It's a step-by-step course here to help. It's a step-by-step course here to help. It's a step-by-step course that has already helped over 3,500 that has already helped over 3,500 that has already helped over 3,500 preachers write and deliver messages preachers write and deliver messages preachers write and deliver messages that are engaging, relevant, and that are engaging, relevant, and that are engaging, relevant, and memorable. And after each lesson, there memorable. And after each lesson, there memorable. And after each lesson, there are materials to help you incorporate are materials to help you incorporate are materials to help you incorporate what you've learned into your next what you've learned into your next what you've learned into your next sermon so you can step on stage ready to sermon so you can step on stage ready to sermon so you can step on stage ready to deliver a message that lands. And it's deliver a message that lands. And it's deliver a message that lands. And it's not just me. You're going to hear from not just me. You're going to hear from not just me. You're going to hear from Mark Clark, Faith Yuri Cho, Megan Fate

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toward their next spiritual step. toward their next spiritual step. Churches using visitor reach connect Churches using visitor reach connect Churches using visitor reach connect with 20 to 120 new people each month and with 20 to 120 new people each month and with 20 to 120 new people each month and see new visitors walking through their see new visitors walking through their see new visitors walking through their doors every single week. Use the free doors every single week. Use the free doors every single week. Use the free digital health assessment to see how digital health assessment to see how digital health assessment to see how many people are searching church near me many people are searching church near me many people are searching church near me in your area. Visit in your area. Visit in your area. Visit visitorreach.com/carry visitorreach.com/carry visitorreach.com/carry to get your free assessment or book a to get your free assessment or book a to get your free assessment or book a demo. That's visitor.com/cy. That was the light flash before my eyes. That was the light flash before my eyes. My life flashed before my eyes in that My life flashed before my eyes in that My life flashed before my eyes in that moment because you know hitting 60 moment because you know hitting 60 moment because you know hitting 60 there are times and I want to be careful there are times and I want to be careful there are times and I want to be careful how I say this. how I say this. how I say this. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Okay. [laughter] >> Okay. [laughter] >> Which is the new 30. Exactly. Uh I I >> Which is the new 30. Exactly. Uh I I >> Which is the new 30. Exactly. Uh I I went through a health scare last year as went through a health scare last year as went through a health scare last year as well that kind of almost knocked me well that kind of almost knocked me well that kind of almost knocked me right out, but you know, we're back and right out, but you know, we're back and right out, but you know, we're back and and away we go. But there's a certain and away we go. But there's a certain and away we go. But there's a certain point, you know, if I see someone who's point, you know, if I see someone who's point, you know, if I see someone who's had a lot of work done, so to speak, and had a lot of work done, so to speak, and had a lot of work done, so to speak, and they might be in their 60s or 70s, they might be in their 60s or 70s, they might be in their 60s or 70s, there's a voice inside my head that there's a voice inside my head that there's a voice inside my head that says, you know what, like that's fine, says, you know what, like that's fine, says, you know what, like that's fine, but nobody thinks you're 20. And but nobody thinks you're 20. And but nobody thinks you're 20. And sometimes you see that attempt to like sometimes you see that attempt to like sometimes you see that attempt to like I'm still 25, but but you're not. and I'm still 25, but but you're not. and I'm still 25, but but you're not. and that that there is a patheticness to that that there is a patheticness to that that there is a patheticness to that.

that. that. >> Uh just like Craig Relle has been on >> Uh just like Craig Relle has been on >> Uh just like Craig Relle has been on this podcast and he said, you know, if this podcast and he said, you know, if this podcast and he said, you know, if you're trying to lead with the same you're trying to lead with the same you're trying to lead with the same vigor in your 50s as you did in your vigor in your 50s as you did in your vigor in your 50s as you did in your 30s, and I mean Craig is strong 30s, and I mean Craig is strong 30s, and I mean Craig is strong physically and otherwise. There's a physically and otherwise. There's a physically and otherwise. There's a there's a sadness to that. there's a sadness to that. there's a sadness to that. >> I'd like you to say more a little a >> I'd like you to say more a little a >> I'd like you to say more a little a little bit about that. Why what what do little bit about that. Why what what do little bit about that. Why what what do you see as the the pitfalls of that sort you see as the the pitfalls of that sort you see as the the pitfalls of that sort of pathetic I'm still young, I'm never of pathetic I'm still young, I'm never of pathetic I'm still young, I'm never going to die. Look at me. Look at me. going to die. Look at me. Look at me. going to die. Look at me. Look at me. I'm still accomplishing things. What's I'm still accomplishing things. What's I'm still accomplishing things. What's pathetic about that? pathetic about that? pathetic about that? >> One word. It's unsustainable. >> One word. It's unsustainable. >> One word. It's unsustainable. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Basically, you can do it for a while, Basically, you can do it for a while, Basically, you can do it for a while, but after a while, face lifts, marrying but after a while, face lifts, marrying but after a while, face lifts, marrying somebody who's 30 years younger, all somebody who's 30 years younger, all somebody who's 30 years younger, all kinds of tummy tucks. Um, you know, you kinds of tummy tucks. Um, you know, you kinds of tummy tucks. Um, you know, you can't it's it's unsustainable. Like I can't it's it's unsustainable. Like I can't it's it's unsustainable. Like I said, there's a healthy, you know, I said, there's a healthy, you know, I said, there's a healthy, you know, I don't knock that. It's healthy to try to don't knock that. It's healthy to try to don't knock that. It's healthy to try to look good, to try to be healthy, to work look good, to try to be healthy, to work look good, to try to be healthy, to work out, you know, and so on. um you want to out, you know, and so on. um you want to out, you know, and so on. um you want to be a a healthy taking care of yourself be a a healthy taking care of yourself be a a healthy taking care of yourself holy person you know holy person you know holy person you know >> but with so many people it becomes >> but with so many people it becomes >> but with so many people it becomes that's the focus their life how do I that's the focus their life how do I that's the focus their life how do I stay young um and see it's it's stay young um and see it's it's stay young um and see it's it's unsustainable you know sooner or later unsustainable you know sooner or later unsustainable you know sooner or later um you know we got to exit this planet um you know we got to exit this planet um you know we got to exit this planet and um and you should have a good exit and um and you should have a good exit and um and you should have a good exit plan okay plan okay plan okay that's what this new book what I should that's what this new book what I should that's what this new book what I should have called an exit plan for leaving the have called an exit plan for leaving the have called an exit plan for leaving the planet you planet you planet you Father Ron, you know, the primary Father Ron, you know, the primary Father Ron, you know, the primary listeners of this podcast are leaders listeners of this podcast are leaders listeners of this podcast are leaders and pastors. And I can't help but wonder

and pastors. And I can't help but wonder and pastors. And I can't help but wonder if leaders and pastors and the kind of if leaders and pastors and the kind of if leaders and pastors and the kind of people that are disproportionately people that are disproportionately people that are disproportionately represented, I would imagine, Carrie, by represented, I would imagine, Carrie, by represented, I would imagine, Carrie, by your listenership, have a harder time your listenership, have a harder time your listenership, have a harder time with aging than others. You know, I'm with aging than others. You know, I'm with aging than others. You know, I'm thinking of Arthur Brooks book, Strength thinking of Arthur Brooks book, Strength thinking of Arthur Brooks book, Strength to Strength, which I also love. to Strength, which I also love. to Strength, which I also love. >> Such a good book. You know, he makes the >> Such a good book. You know, he makes the >> Such a good book. You know, he makes the point that the the more successful you point that the the more successful you point that the the more successful you are in the first half of life and are in the first half of life and are in the first half of life and particularly in your career, the harder particularly in your career, the harder particularly in your career, the harder you will likely find it to be successful you will likely find it to be successful you will likely find it to be successful in the second half of your life. Because in the second half of your life. Because in the second half of your life. Because the very things that made you successful the very things that made you successful the very things that made you successful at your work or your career, your at your work or your career, your at your work or your career, your ascendancy, are going to become almost ascendancy, are going to become almost ascendancy, are going to become almost like liabilities like liabilities like liabilities for the work that is required of you in for the work that is required of you in for the work that is required of you in the second half of life. Can you can you the second half of life. Can you can you the second half of life. Can you can you maybe say more about that or tell us why maybe say more about that or tell us why maybe say more about that or tell us why the message of your book about aging the message of your book about aging the message of your book about aging well and giving your death away and well and giving your death away and well and giving your death away and switching as we'll talk about from switching as we'll talk about from switching as we'll talk about from activity to passivity activity to passivity activity to passivity um why that might be harder for a leader um why that might be harder for a leader um why that might be harder for a leader for the pastor of a church for somebody for the pastor of a church for somebody for the pastor of a church for somebody who's been quote successful who's been quote successful who's been quote successful >> two things to your question John Mark >> two things to your question John Mark >> two things to your question John Mark good question first of all in some ways good question first of all in some ways good question first of all in some ways it is easier for church leaders and it is easier for church leaders and it is easier for church leaders and people like yourself to age because you people like yourself to age because you people like yourself to age because you can continue working.

can continue working. can continue working. >> So you can do your ministry when you're >> So you can do your ministry when you're >> So you can do your ministry when you're 80 years old, you know. See, so unlike 80 years old, you know. See, so unlike 80 years old, you know. See, so unlike other people who just it stops at 60 or other people who just it stops at 60 or other people who just it stops at 60 or 65. See, so we have the option of u um 65. See, so we have the option of u um 65. See, so we have the option of u um you know, keeping on working, you know, you know, keeping on working, you know, you know, keeping on working, you know, that there's a there's a and deep that there's a there's a and deep that there's a there's a and deep meaning in that. meaning in that. meaning in that. >> Um but the other part of that is and >> Um but the other part of that is and >> Um but the other part of that is and Henry Non writes eloquently on that Henry Non writes eloquently on that Henry Non writes eloquently on that sometimes the more successful we are sometimes the more successful we are sometimes the more successful we are later on in life that becomes kind of a later on in life that becomes kind of a later on in life that becomes kind of a cancer. You can only feel good about cancer. You can only feel good about cancer. You can only feel good about yourself if you're successful. You know, yourself if you're successful. You know, yourself if you're successful. You know, if I'm writing publishing another book, if I'm writing publishing another book, if I'm writing publishing another book, and I'm getting, you know, see, and as and I'm getting, you know, see, and as and I'm getting, you know, see, and as soon as it stops, then you're you you soon as it stops, then you're you you soon as it stops, then you're you you you're hungry. So, like, you know, your you're hungry. So, like, you know, your you're hungry. So, like, you know, your your success can also become a cancer your success can also become a cancer your success can also become a cancer because you want to sustain it. You want because you want to sustain it. You want because you want to sustain it. You want to sustain it to sustain it to sustain it >> and you can't feel good about yourself >> and you can't feel good about yourself >> and you can't feel good about yourself unless you're you've published another unless you're you've published another unless you're you've published another book or you got written up in Atlantic. book or you got written up in Atlantic. book or you got written up in Atlantic. [laughter] Okay. [laughter] Okay. [laughter] Okay. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Shout out John Mark Homer. So to to so >> Shout out John Mark Homer. So to to so >> Shout out John Mark Homer. So to to so enjoy that when you're 80 uh you know um enjoy that when you're 80 uh you know um enjoy that when you're 80 uh you know um so that we have to start letting go of so that we have to start letting go of so that we have to start letting go of that that you know that's the the Mary that that you know that's the the Mary that that you know that's the the Mary rather than Martha where you know you're rather than Martha where you know you're rather than Martha where you know you're not doing anymore but we do have the not doing anymore but we do have the not doing anymore but we do have the advantage church leaders that because advantage church leaders that because advantage church leaders that because most people can minister late into life most people can minister late into life most people can minister late into life so you don't retire as a minister so you don't retire as a minister so you don't retire as a minister necessarily when you're 65 you light necessarily when you're 65 you light necessarily when you're 65 you light when you're 85 you know and um and so when you're 85 you know and um and so when you're 85 you know and um and so there we have an advantage we can keep there we have an advantage we can keep there we have an advantage we can keep being productive and generative being productive and generative being productive and generative Um, [clears throat] and then we feel Um, [clears throat] and then we feel Um, [clears throat] and then we feel good about ourselves. But then that the good about ourselves. But then that the good about ourselves. But then that the trap is when we can't be productive trap is when we can't be productive trap is when we can't be productive anymore, how do we feel good about

anymore, how do we feel good about anymore, how do we feel good about ourselves? ourselves? ourselves? And I think a lot of us kick the can And I think a lot of us kick the can And I think a lot of us kick the can down the road. I mean, one of the the down the road. I mean, one of the the down the road. I mean, one of the the problems right now in the Protestant problems right now in the Protestant problems right now in the Protestant church, I won't speak for Roman church, I won't speak for Roman church, I won't speak for Roman Catholics, is in the '9s, the average Catholics, is in the '9s, the average Catholics, is in the '9s, the average senior pastor was 44 years old. Today, senior pastor was 44 years old. Today, senior pastor was 44 years old. Today, it's 58. and there's not a a parade of it's 58. and there's not a a parade of it's 58. and there's not a a parade of young leaders ready to take over the young leaders ready to take over the young leaders ready to take over the number of spots. And some of that is number of spots. And some of that is number of spots. And some of that is failure to develop leaders. But some of failure to develop leaders. But some of failure to develop leaders. But some of that is just what we talked about that is just what we talked about that is just what we talked about earlier. We're we're healthier than we earlier. We're we're healthier than we earlier. We're we're healthier than we were. Like if you look at a 60-year-old were. Like if you look at a 60-year-old were. Like if you look at a 60-year-old today, generally speaking, and a today, generally speaking, and a today, generally speaking, and a 60-year-old 50 years ago, um I could 60-year-old 50 years ago, um I could 60-year-old 50 years ago, um I could jump on my bike this afternoon. I don't jump on my bike this afternoon. I don't jump on my bike this afternoon. I don't know that a lot of 60-year-olds could know that a lot of 60-year-olds could know that a lot of 60-year-olds could have easily done that uh two generations have easily done that uh two generations have easily done that uh two generations ago. You know, we just medicine has come ago. You know, we just medicine has come ago. You know, we just medicine has come a long way. health and nutrition has a long way. health and nutrition has a long way. health and nutrition has come a long way despite all the problems come a long way despite all the problems come a long way despite all the problems we have. But some of that kind of gets we have. But some of that kind of gets we have. But some of that kind of gets us into into the second phase, I think, us into into the second phase, I think, us into into the second phase, I think, which is you you could become a bitter which is you you could become a bitter which is you you could become a bitter old fool. And I've seen this in in in my old fool. And I've seen this in in in my old fool. And I've seen this in in in my my peers who are a little bit older my peers who are a little bit older my peers who are a little bit older sometimes where if your best days are sometimes where if your best days are sometimes where if your best days are behind you or there's a young preacher behind you or there's a young preacher behind you or there's a young preacher who's the new hot thing or let's say who's the new hot thing or let's say who's the new hot thing or let's say you're a writer and there's some younger you're a writer and there's some younger you're a writer and there's some younger leader who's out selling you. It's so leader who's out selling you. It's so leader who's out selling you. It's so easy to become bitter. And you know, in easy to become bitter. And you know, in easy to become bitter. And you know, in the days when when when the churches the days when when when the churches the days when when when the churches that I I'm still am part of were very that I I'm still am part of were very that I I'm still am part of were very very small and aging and almost dying very small and aging and almost dying very small and aging and almost dying before we became what we are now, I used before we became what we are now, I used before we became what we are now, I used to do a lot of pastoral visitation to do a lot of pastoral visitation to do a lot of pastoral visitation because we had a handful of people because we had a handful of people because we had a handful of people attending. There was nothing else to do.

attending. There was nothing else to do. attending. There was nothing else to do. So I just go visit people. And I met a So I just go visit people. And I met a So I just go visit people. And I met a lot of elderly people. And one of the lot of elderly people. And one of the lot of elderly people. And one of the things I remember from that era was how things I remember from that era was how things I remember from that era was how bitter some of them were that their bitter some of them were that their bitter some of them were that their daughter doesn't call, son doesn't call, daughter doesn't call, son doesn't call, daughter doesn't call, son doesn't call, nobody comes to visit, the food isn't nobody comes to visit, the food isn't nobody comes to visit, the food isn't any good, nothing's any good. any good, nothing's any good. any good, nothing's any good. etc., etc. Do you want to say a little etc., etc. Do you want to say a little etc., etc. Do you want to say a little bit more about bitterness and aging? bit more about bitterness and aging? bit more about bitterness and aging? >> Two things. First of all, you know, as >> Two things. First of all, you know, as >> Two things. First of all, you know, as we age and the older we get, the more we age and the older we get, the more we age and the older we get, the more we're also become marginalized and we're also become marginalized and we're also become marginalized and that's easy to become resentful. that's easy to become resentful. that's easy to become resentful. >> So, for instance, speak personally. I >> So, for instance, speak personally. I >> So, for instance, speak personally. I used to be president of the school and I used to be president of the school and I used to be president of the school and I dictated now I'm just a faculty member dictated now I'm just a faculty member dictated now I'm just a faculty member here and a lot of times they do things here and a lot of times they do things here and a lot of times they do things and that said you know who cares and that said you know who cares and that said you know who cares basically you you used to be in power basically you you used to be in power basically you you used to be in power and now you're not in power you know and and now you're not in power you know and and now you're not in power you know and see the older we get in our health and see the older we get in our health and see the older we get in our health and everything else marginalizes us and it's everything else marginalizes us and it's everything else marginalizes us and it's easy to become resentful. We used to be easy to become resentful. We used to be easy to become resentful. We used to be the center. We used to be the the actor. the center. We used to be the the actor. the center. We used to be the the actor. We used to be controlling and now you're We used to be controlling and now you're We used to be controlling and now you're you get upset because your daughter you get upset because your daughter you get upset because your daughter isn't phoning, you know. Um so, so isn't phoning, you know. Um so, so isn't phoning, you know. Um so, so that's part of that's part of that's part of >> people don't return your calls as much >> people don't return your calls as much >> people don't return your calls as much as they did when you were president of as they did when you were president of as they did when you were president of the seminary.

the seminary. the seminary. >> The other part of that is and and I hint >> The other part of that is and and I hint >> The other part of that is and and I hint at that at the beginning of this book. at that at the beginning of this book. at that at the beginning of this book. We have to look at anger and bitterness We have to look at anger and bitterness We have to look at anger and bitterness in ourselves when we're younger. in ourselves when we're younger. in ourselves when we're younger. Remember I told the story at the Remember I told the story at the Remember I told the story at the beginning of the book. I went to visit beginning of the book. I went to visit beginning of the book. I went to visit this old priest was 98 and a very mellow this old priest was 98 and a very mellow this old priest was 98 and a very mellow man and I had this young seminarian with man and I had this young seminarian with man and I had this young seminarian with me and the seminarian said you know Leo me and the seminarian said you know Leo me and the seminarian said you know Leo he said god I admire you said you're so he said god I admire you said you're so he said god I admire you said you're so mellow said when I your age I'd like to mellow said when I your age I'd like to mellow said when I your age I'd like to be like you he said what's the secret he be like you he said what's the secret he be like you he said what's the secret he said start now okay basically you know said start now okay basically you know said start now okay basically you know um I was once at a psychiatric um I was once at a psychiatric um I was once at a psychiatric conference and somebody asked a conference and somebody asked a conference and somebody asked a psychiatrist a very good psychiatrist psychiatrist a very good psychiatrist psychiatrist a very good psychiatrist they said like why do so many people get they said like why do so many people get they said like why do so many people get angry when they get older angry when they get older angry when they get older And he laughed and he said, "Doesn't And he laughed and he said, "Doesn't And he laughed and he said, "Doesn't happen. I've never seen it." He said, "I happen. I've never seen it." He said, "I happen. I've never seen it." He said, "I think what you're talking about is an think what you're talking about is an think what you're talking about is an angry person getting old. The anger's angry person getting old. The anger's angry person getting old. The anger's always been there." You know, always been there." You know, always been there." You know, >> you know, it feeds in the >> you know, it feeds in the >> you know, it feeds in the marginalization marginalization marginalization that you know that your health things it that you know that your health things it that you know that your health things it feeds in, but if you've been angry, I feeds in, but if you've been angry, I feeds in, but if you've been angry, I mean, the anger starts early, you know, mean, the anger starts early, you know, mean, the anger starts early, you know, and um and um and um >> yeah, it's like compound interest but in >> yeah, it's like compound interest but in >> yeah, it's like compound interest but in reverse. It just it comes out in spades reverse. It just it comes out in spades reverse. It just it comes out in spades when we get old.

when we get old. when we get old. >> Yeah. You know, a contemporary of yours, >> Yeah. You know, a contemporary of yours, >> Yeah. You know, a contemporary of yours, Gordon McDonald. When when I stepped Gordon McDonald. When when I stepped Gordon McDonald. When when I stepped right away from full-time church right away from full-time church right away from full-time church leadership, I was fortunate enough to leadership, I was fortunate enough to leadership, I was fortunate enough to have a few conversations with Gordon have a few conversations with Gordon have a few conversations with Gordon McDonald and he's in his mid to late 80s McDonald and he's in his mid to late 80s McDonald and he's in his mid to late 80s now. And I asked Gordon, I said, "What now. And I asked Gordon, I said, "What now. And I asked Gordon, I said, "What what should I be prepared for?" And I what should I be prepared for?" And I what should I be prepared for?" And I was in my mid50s at the time. And he ju was in my mid50s at the time. And he ju was in my mid50s at the time. And he ju the thing that really stands out was the thing that really stands out was the thing that really stands out was just a line he said. He said, "Carrie, just a line he said. He said, "Carrie, just a line he said. He said, "Carrie, they forget you quickly." they forget you quickly." they forget you quickly." >> And my goodness was he right. >> And my goodness was he right. >> And my goodness was he right. >> I like that. They forget. >> I like that. They forget. >> I like that. They forget. >> They forget you quickly. >> They forget you quickly. >> They forget you quickly. >> And if I stop writing, if this was the >> And if I stop writing, if this was the >> And if I stop writing, if this was the last episode of the podcast, fast last episode of the podcast, fast last episode of the podcast, fast forward a year, John Mark, if you forward a year, John Mark, if you forward a year, John Mark, if you stopped publishing. So, hey, remember stopped publishing. So, hey, remember stopped publishing. So, hey, remember that guy John Mark Homer? Yeah. Yeah. that guy John Mark Homer? Yeah. Yeah. that guy John Mark Homer? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How how are you learning or what Yeah. How how are you learning or what Yeah. How how are you learning or what is your advice on leaders who are afraid is your advice on leaders who are afraid is your advice on leaders who are afraid of obscurity? of obscurity? of obscurity? >> That's part of the book. We have to >> That's part of the book. We have to >> That's part of the book. We have to prepare ourselves for that you know see prepare ourselves for that you know see prepare ourselves for that you know see and we have to prepare ourselves and we have to prepare ourselves and we have to prepare ourselves spiritually not just psychologically for spiritually not just psychologically for spiritually not just psychologically for instance what I do in [clears throat] instance what I do in [clears throat] instance what I do in [clears throat] there about passivity you know see there about passivity you know see there about passivity you know see you're in your generative years and you're in your generative years and you're in your generative years and generative years you're like you know I generative years you're like you know I generative years you're like you know I I make this distinction with Jesus Jes I make this distinction with Jesus Jes I make this distinction with Jesus Jes Jesus saved us by his life he saved us Jesus saved us by his life he saved us Jesus saved us by his life he saved us by his death see his life is for by his death see his life is for by his death see his life is for instance if you take the gospels instance if you take the gospels instance if you take the gospels [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] and other than John who's more complex and other than John who's more complex and other than John who's more complex but you take Matthew Mark and Luke Luke but you take Matthew Mark and Luke Luke but you take Matthew Mark and Luke Luke up until Jesus is arrested and led away.

up until Jesus is arrested and led away. up until Jesus is arrested and led away. That's Jesus act of life. He's the great That's Jesus act of life. He's the great That's Jesus act of life. He's the great doer. He is healing people, teaching so doer. He is healing people, teaching so doer. He is healing people, teaching so on. Then they lead him away. He doesn't on. Then they lead him away. He doesn't on. Then they lead him away. He doesn't do anything anymore. Everything's done do anything anymore. Everything's done do anything anymore. Everything's done to him. You know, they they but we it's to him. You know, they they but we it's to him. You know, they they but we it's interesting. We say he saved us as much interesting. We say he saved us as much interesting. We say he saved us as much or maybe more in that time when he or maybe more in that time when he or maybe more in that time when he couldn't do anything than a time when he couldn't do anything than a time when he couldn't do anything than a time when he did everything. did everything. did everything. See, that's the deep thing we have to See, that's the deep thing we have to See, that's the deep thing we have to inhale and and work through that. inhale and and work through that. inhale and and work through that. Basically, when we come to I love your Basically, when we come to I love your Basically, when we come to I love your line, they forget you quickly. Um, when line, they forget you quickly. Um, when line, they forget you quickly. Um, when you're forgotten, you're marginalized, you're forgotten, you're marginalized, you're forgotten, you're marginalized, you're in the senior's home, they're you're in the senior's home, they're you're in the senior's home, they're bringing you jello- to eat at 4:30 in bringing you jello- to eat at 4:30 in bringing you jello- to eat at 4:30 in the afternoon, you know. Um, the afternoon, you know. Um, the afternoon, you know. Um, >> nobody's visiting you, >> nobody's visiting you, >> nobody's visiting you, >> you have to say, we have to have some >> you have to say, we have to have some >> you have to say, we have to have some spirituality of pacivity. You're giving spirituality of pacivity. You're giving spirituality of pacivity. You're giving off something else. Now, off something else. Now, off something else. Now, >> this episode is brought to you by Glue. >> this episode is brought to you by Glue. >> this episode is brought to you by Glue. So, I want to ask you something. What So, I want to ask you something. What So, I want to ask you something. What would it change for your ministry if you would it change for your ministry if you would it change for your ministry if you could just focus on the mission? I mean, could just focus on the mission? I mean, could just focus on the mission? I mean, no wrestling with tech, no guessing no wrestling with tech, no guessing no wrestling with tech, no guessing whether your marketing is actually whether your marketing is actually whether your marketing is actually working. Well, I've got Brian Brown here working. Well, I've got Brian Brown here working. Well, I've got Brian Brown here who leads the team within Glue focused who leads the team within Glue focused who leads the team within Glue focused on helping ministries expand their on helping ministries expand their on helping ministries expand their reach. Brian, give people the short reach. Brian, give people the short reach. Brian, give people the short version like what is Glue? Everybody version like what is Glue? Everybody version like what is Glue? Everybody asked me that question.

asked me that question. asked me that question. >> Yeah, thanks Carrie. Simply put, Glue is >> Yeah, thanks Carrie. Simply put, Glue is >> Yeah, thanks Carrie. Simply put, Glue is the tech platform for the faith and the tech platform for the faith and the tech platform for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Glue exists to flourishing ecosystem. Glue exists to flourishing ecosystem. Glue exists to serve people who serve others like your serve people who serve others like your serve people who serve others like your listeners. listeners. listeners. >> We do this two things really well. We >> We do this two things really well. We >> We do this two things really well. We handle tech and we help people connect handle tech and we help people connect handle tech and we help people connect with people. On the tech side of things, with people. On the tech side of things, with people. On the tech side of things, we bring engineering talent, scalable we bring engineering talent, scalable we bring engineering talent, scalable infrastructure, deep expertise in infrastructure, deep expertise in infrastructure, deep expertise in ministry and nonprofit tech so that ministry and nonprofit tech so that ministry and nonprofit tech so that you're not burning nights trying to hold you're not burning nights trying to hold you're not burning nights trying to hold all of your systems together by sheer all of your systems together by sheer all of your systems together by sheer force of will. And on the reach side, we force of will. And on the reach side, we force of will. And on the reach side, we help you actually connect with donors, help you actually connect with donors, help you actually connect with donors, with supporters, with the people you're with supporters, with the people you're with supporters, with the people you're actually trying to serve, which results actually trying to serve, which results actually trying to serve, which results in better engagement, smarter in better engagement, smarter in better engagement, smarter distribution, and a real marketing distribution, and a real marketing distribution, and a real marketing strategy, not just throwing things at strategy, not just throwing things at strategy, not just throwing things at the wall anymore. And increasingly, the wall anymore. And increasingly, the wall anymore. And increasingly, we're using AI to make all of that we're using AI to make all of that we're using AI to make all of that faster, sharper, better. But our bottom faster, sharper, better. But our bottom faster, sharper, better. But our bottom line is this. You stay focused on the line is this. You stay focused on the line is this. You stay focused on the front lines and we'll handle the stuff front lines and we'll handle the stuff front lines and we'll handle the stuff behind them. So, it kind of sounds like behind them. So, it kind of sounds like behind them. So, it kind of sounds like Glue is building out the infrastructure Glue is building out the infrastructure Glue is building out the infrastructure and also the staffing that most churches and also the staffing that most churches and also the staffing that most churches are like, "Yeah, we can't do all that are like, "Yeah, we can't do all that are like, "Yeah, we can't do all that because we don't have the staff." So, because we don't have the staff." So, because we don't have the staff." So, Brian, thanks for that explainer. I Brian, thanks for that explainer. I Brian, thanks for that explainer. I appreciate it. So, if you're a church or appreciate it. So, if you're a church or appreciate it. So, if you're a church or nonprofit, and I personally have nonprofit, and I personally have nonprofit, and I personally have partnered with Glue as well, our company partnered with Glue as well, our company partnered with Glue as well, our company does. Uh, and you're tired of spinning does. Uh, and you're tired of spinning does. Uh, and you're tired of spinning plates, go to glue.com/grow.

plates, go to glue.com/grow. plates, go to glue.com/grow. I want to spell that out for you. That's I want to spell that out for you. That's I want to spell that out for you. That's glgrow. That was the aha for me. I didn't have That was the aha for me. I didn't have that theology. All I had was contribute, that theology. All I had was contribute, that theology. All I had was contribute, contribute, contribute. John Mark, go contribute, contribute. John Mark, go contribute, contribute. John Mark, go ahead. ahead. ahead. >> Yeah. I mean, or even the spirituality, >> Yeah. I mean, or even the spirituality, >> Yeah. I mean, or even the spirituality, you know, Father Ron, you just used the you know, Father Ron, you just used the you know, Father Ron, you just used the word spirituality. I think maybe we word spirituality. I think maybe we word spirituality. I think maybe we missed this beat to frame our missed this beat to frame our missed this beat to frame our conversation. One thing that's been conversation. One thing that's been conversation. One thing that's been really helpful about your work is how really helpful about your work is how really helpful about your work is how you distinguish between spirituality and you distinguish between spirituality and you distinguish between spirituality and theology. And obviously, you're in an theology. And obviously, you're in an theology. And obviously, you're in an academic program that's one of the only academic program that's one of the only academic program that's one of the only spirituality programs, as far as I spirituality programs, as far as I spirituality programs, as far as I understand it, in the US, Catholic or understand it, in the US, Catholic or understand it, in the US, Catholic or Protestant. Can you just for the Protestant. Can you just for the Protestant. Can you just for the listener kind of give us your parsing of listener kind of give us your parsing of listener kind of give us your parsing of what you mean by spirituality versus what you mean by spirituality versus what you mean by spirituality versus theology and then we'll come right back theology and then we'll come right back theology and then we'll come right back to what you mean by we need a to what you mean by we need a to what you mean by we need a spirituality of passivity. spirituality of passivity. spirituality of passivity. >> You know I'm going to give you a simple >> You know I'm going to give you a simple >> You know I'm going to give you a simple image we use at our school analogy. We image we use at our school analogy. We image we use at our school analogy. We say you know for instance you take a say you know for instance you take a say you know for instance you take a game baseball there's a rule book you game baseball there's a rule book you game baseball there's a rule book you got to play by the rules and then got to play by the rules and then got to play by the rules and then there's the game theology is the rule there's the game theology is the rule there's the game theology is the rule book book book these are the parameters these are the these are the parameters these are the these are the parameters these are the invitations and so on and invitations and so on and invitations and so on and >> what's out of bounds inbounds allowed >> what's out of bounds inbounds allowed >> what's out of bounds inbounds allowed not allowed not allowed not allowed >> this is the game how are we actually >> this is the game how are we actually >> this is the game how are we actually living this disciplehip you know um you living this disciplehip you know um you living this disciplehip you know um you know we're living within the boundaries know we're living within the boundaries know we're living within the boundaries of the rules and so on um and it's of the rules and so on um and it's of the rules and so on um and it's interesting I want to say something very interesting I want to say something very interesting I want to say something very that that that gives me a lot of that that that gives me a lot of that that that gives me a lot of positivity and hope. It's interesting

positivity and hope. It's interesting positivity and hope. It's interesting that spirituality is where the church is that spirituality is where the church is that spirituality is where the church is where we're coming together. You know, where we're coming together. You know, where we're coming together. You know, see see see >> once they get to disciples of Jesus, >> once they get to disciples of Jesus, >> once they get to disciples of Jesus, it's the same for everybody. it's the same for everybody. it's the same for everybody. >> You know, see, theology makes rules and >> You know, see, theology makes rules and >> You know, see, theology makes rules and we have different rules and different we have different rules and different we have different rules and different denominations, you know, spirituality denominations, you know, spirituality denominations, you know, spirituality melts it all down. We're all in the same melts it all down. We're all in the same melts it all down. We're all in the same game. We're all trying to be disciples game. We're all trying to be disciples game. We're all trying to be disciples of Jesus. And that's the same for of Jesus. And that's the same for of Jesus. And that's the same for everybody. Um, denominational faith everybody. Um, denominational faith everybody. Um, denominational faith means nothing. You know, in our means nothing. You know, in our means nothing. You know, in our spirituality program here at John Mark, spirituality program here at John Mark, spirituality program here at John Mark, we have students from every we have students from every we have students from every denomination. And in 20 years, we've denomination. And in 20 years, we've denomination. And in 20 years, we've never had a single conversion. Anybody never had a single conversion. Anybody never had a single conversion. Anybody from one denomination, but everybody has from one denomination, but everybody has from one denomination, but everybody has left loving their own denomination more left loving their own denomination more left loving their own denomination more and being at ease with all the other and being at ease with all the other and being at ease with all the other denominations and all kind of. denominations and all kind of. denominations and all kind of. >> Wow. So, you've never had a Methodist >> Wow. So, you've never had a Methodist >> Wow. So, you've never had a Methodist become a Catholic or a Catholic become become a Catholic or a Catholic become become a Catholic or a Catholic become Orthodox or an Orthodox become Orthodox or an Orthodox become Orthodox or an Orthodox become Pentecostal. If we say we want you to go Pentecostal. If we say we want you to go Pentecostal. If we say we want you to go back to your church back to your church back to your church >> and be bring some gifts to that church, >> and be bring some gifts to that church, >> and be bring some gifts to that church, you know, you know, you know, >> because in spirituality it all melts >> because in spirituality it all melts >> because in spirituality it all melts down. This is just about disciplehip.

down. This is just about disciplehip. down. This is just about disciplehip. And you know, like there's ecclesial And you know, like there's ecclesial And you know, like there's ecclesial stuff doesn't even come up, you know, stuff doesn't even come up, you know, stuff doesn't even come up, you know, the pope this that, you know, um it the pope this that, you know, um it the pope this that, you know, um it doesn't come up. That's doesn't come up. That's doesn't come up. That's >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's funny. You know, I'm thinking >> Yeah. It's funny. You know, I'm thinking >> Yeah. It's funny. You know, I'm thinking about my theology about my theology about my theology is pretty much the same as it was when I is pretty much the same as it was when I is pretty much the same as it was when I was in my late 20s. It's continued to was in my late 20s. It's continued to was in my late 20s. It's continued to iterate and grow and blind spots where iterate and grow and blind spots where iterate and grow and blind spots where I've doubled down and done work, you I've doubled down and done work, you I've doubled down and done work, you know, but I'm still basically have NT know, but I'm still basically have NT know, but I'm still basically have NT right in the back of my brain all day right in the back of my brain all day right in the back of my brain all day long and you know, biblical theology and long and you know, biblical theology and long and you know, biblical theology and I'm kind of on the same exact path I'm kind of on the same exact path I'm kind of on the same exact path theologically I've been on since theologically I've been on since theologically I've been on since seminary. But spiritualitywise, like I seminary. But spiritualitywise, like I seminary. But spiritualitywise, like I just feel like the last 10 years, my just feel like the last 10 years, my just feel like the last 10 years, my chest has exploded with the treasures of chest has exploded with the treasures of chest has exploded with the treasures of the global historic church that have the global historic church that have the global historic church that have enlarged and enriched my walk with God enlarged and enriched my walk with God enlarged and enriched my walk with God in extraordinary ways. And you're right, in extraordinary ways. And you're right, in extraordinary ways. And you're right, it hasn't really changed my theology all it hasn't really changed my theology all it hasn't really changed my theology all that much. that much. that much. >> The rules of the game are the same >> The rules of the game are the same >> The rules of the game are the same >> the same. And I'm still like arguing >> the same. And I'm still like arguing >> the same. And I'm still like arguing about what does the text say and you about what does the text say and you about what does the text say and you know what's the what's authoral intent know what's the what's authoral intent know what's the what's authoral intent here? But it has dramatically changed here? But it has dramatically changed here? But it has dramatically changed the way I follow Jesus and the way I the way I follow Jesus and the way I the way I follow Jesus and the way I experience God.

experience God. experience God. >> That's really interesting because I >> That's really interesting because I >> That's really interesting because I think people can probably see themselves think people can probably see themselves think people can probably see themselves and this is you know I I sit right in and this is you know I I sit right in and this is you know I I sit right in that chair in the morning uh for my that chair in the morning uh for my that chair in the morning uh for my devotional time devotional time devotional time and and and that's a really helpful metaphor because that's a really helpful metaphor because that's a really helpful metaphor because too often it can be about right thinking too often it can be about right thinking too often it can be about right thinking >> and which is sort of the rules of the >> and which is sort of the rules of the >> and which is sort of the rules of the game, right? Was that a foul ball or a game, right? Was that a foul ball or a game, right? Was that a foul ball or a fair ball? Were we gonna move the foul fair ball? Were we gonna move the foul fair ball? Were we gonna move the foul pole? What does that look like? pole? What does that look like? pole? What does that look like? etc., etc., infield, fly rule, whatever etc., etc., infield, fly rule, whatever etc., etc., infield, fly rule, whatever it is in baseball. Baseball is one sport it is in baseball. Baseball is one sport it is in baseball. Baseball is one sport I actually know. Um, but but that idea I actually know. Um, but but that idea I actually know. Um, but but that idea of the game, there's a lot of people who of the game, there's a lot of people who of the game, there's a lot of people who just sit there and debate the rules and just sit there and debate the rules and just sit there and debate the rules and they never play the game. It's like, no, they never play the game. It's like, no, they never play the game. It's like, no, get out there and and and see what get out there and and and see what get out there and and and see what happens. happens. happens. >> I noticed with Jesus who he has trouble >> I noticed with Jesus who he has trouble >> I noticed with Jesus who he has trouble with, the people have the rule book. with, the people have the rule book. with, the people have the rule book. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Jesus is talking about here's a game >> Jesus is talking about here's a game >> Jesus is talking about here's a game that you want here are the rules and you that you want here are the rules and you that you want here are the rules and you you can't do this on the Sabbath and so you can't do this on the Sabbath and so you can't do this on the Sabbath and so on. um you know that uh but we find that on. um you know that uh but we find that on. um you know that uh but we find that a very useful image is a very useful image is a very useful image is >> spiritual it's the game we're in the >> spiritual it's the game we're in the >> spiritual it's the game we're in the game game game >> and the rules are important the rules >> and the rules are important the rules >> and the rules are important the rules are very important are very important are very important >> they're super important and we need to >> they're super important and we need to >> they're super important and we need to argue about them and you know I'm such a argue about them and you know I'm such a argue about them and you know I'm such a high view of biblical authority but I high view of biblical authority but I high view of biblical authority but I also think that different stages of life also think that different stages of life also think that different stages of life and different moments in the wider and different moments in the wider and different moments in the wider culture and in history call for culture and in history call for culture and in history call for different spiritualities just meaning different spiritualities just meaning different spiritualities just meaning different sets of emphasis and attitude different sets of emphasis and attitude different sets of emphasis and attitude And you know, every tradition has a And you know, every tradition has a And you know, every tradition has a certain practices, you know, that it certain practices, you know, that it certain practices, you know, that it will put at the center. If you're will put at the center. If you're will put at the center. If you're Jesuit, it's the prayer of examine. If Jesuit, it's the prayer of examine. If Jesuit, it's the prayer of examine. If you're evangelical, it's the quiet time.

you're evangelical, it's the quiet time. you're evangelical, it's the quiet time. If you're a traditional Catholic, it's If you're a traditional Catholic, it's If you're a traditional Catholic, it's daily mass. And um these are daily mass. And um these are daily mass. And um these are spiritualities where we all kind of spiritualities where we all kind of spiritualities where we all kind of believe in the Lord's supper and believe in the Lord's supper and believe in the Lord's supper and scripture and prayer and reflective scripture and prayer and reflective scripture and prayer and reflective living and you know, all of us think living and you know, all of us think living and you know, all of us think that's important. The question is which that's important. The question is which that's important. The question is which do we emphasize and how and how do we do do we emphasize and how and how do we do do we emphasize and how and how do we do life together as a community? And I do life together as a community? And I do life together as a community? And I do think different eras of life and eras of think different eras of life and eras of think different eras of life and eras of history call for different history call for different history call for different spiritualities. I'd love to know, Father spiritualities. I'd love to know, Father spiritualities. I'd love to know, Father Ron, what um Ron, what um Ron, what um what how does our spirituality need to what how does our spirituality need to what how does our spirituality need to change as we age? What does your current change as we age? What does your current change as we age? What does your current Burke of the the the final stage of life Burke of the the the final stage of life Burke of the the the final stage of life or the middle stage of life that I'm in? or the middle stage of life that I'm in? or the middle stage of life that I'm in? What needs to change about our What needs to change about our What needs to change about our spirituality? You mentioned one thing, spirituality? You mentioned one thing, spirituality? You mentioned one thing, passivity. embracing. You know, I think passivity. embracing. You know, I think passivity. embracing. You know, I think you say in your book, the verbs about you say in your book, the verbs about you say in your book, the verbs about Jesus are all active until you get to Jesus are all active until you get to Jesus are all active until you get to the passion narrative and then they the passion narrative and then they the passion narrative and then they become passive. Jesus does, does does become passive. Jesus does, does does become passive. Jesus does, does does and then this is done to him that he's and then this is done to him that he's and then this is done to him that he's tortured. He's arrested. He's falsely tortured. He's arrested. He's falsely tortured. He's arrested. He's falsely accused. What what else needs to change accused. What what else needs to change accused. What what else needs to change other than our beginning to embrace a other than our beginning to embrace a other than our beginning to embrace a healthy passivity and giving our death healthy passivity and giving our death healthy passivity and giving our death away?

away? away? >> You know what, Carrie? The first >> You know what, Carrie? The first >> You know what, Carrie? The first question you had asked you know I'm question you had asked you know I'm question you had asked you know I'm going to use you said if you look at going to use you said if you look at going to use you said if you look at your life what has changed in your your life what has changed in your your life what has changed in your thinking you know I want to use that thinking you know I want to use that thinking you know I want to use that >> yeah I sent you those questions >> yeah I sent you those questions >> yeah I sent you those questions >> I grew up >> I grew up >> I grew up >> religious family Roman Catholic you know >> religious family Roman Catholic you know >> religious family Roman Catholic you know very conservative um and and and it was very conservative um and and and it was very conservative um and and and it was a good religious but with a lot of fear a good religious but with a lot of fear a good religious but with a lot of fear of God and and with a pretty narrow God of God and and with a pretty narrow God of God and and with a pretty narrow God you wasn't a lot of people into heaven you wasn't a lot of people into heaven you wasn't a lot of people into heaven and you had to you know a lot of fear and you had to you know a lot of fear and you had to you know a lot of fear and you know during the ears to to um to and you know during the ears to to um to and you know during the ears to to um to deepen and and our our our our deepen and and our our our our deepen and and our our our our understanding of God first of all to understanding of God first of all to understanding of God first of all to outgrow the fears that God is love. God outgrow the fears that God is love. God outgrow the fears that God is love. God is the only thing you don't have to be is the only thing you don't have to be is the only thing you don't have to be scared of in all of life. You know, um scared of in all of life. You know, um scared of in all of life. You know, um but then also God's openness. You know, but then also God's openness. You know, but then also God's openness. You know, for 15 years, I taught in the seminary for 15 years, I taught in the seminary for 15 years, I taught in the seminary in Edmonton and I taught a course called in Edmonton and I taught a course called in Edmonton and I taught a course called theology of God. And I'd always tell the theology of God. And I'd always tell the theology of God. And I'd always tell the seminarians this, I said, "Whatever else seminarians this, I said, "Whatever else seminarians this, I said, "Whatever else you do, try not to make God look stupid you do, try not to make God look stupid you do, try not to make God look stupid or narrow."

or narrow." or narrow." No. And it's so easy to do, you know, No. And it's so easy to do, you know, No. And it's so easy to do, you know, that all goodwill where God is this that all goodwill where God is this that all goodwill where God is this narrow as a tribal God. Um, you know, or narrow as a tribal God. Um, you know, or narrow as a tribal God. Um, you know, or even today, if I risk saying this, a lot even today, if I risk saying this, a lot even today, if I risk saying this, a lot of Christian nationalism, we're making of Christian nationalism, we're making of Christian nationalism, we're making God into a tribal god. God into a tribal god. God into a tribal god. >> Yeah. you know, that's not the God for >> Yeah. you know, that's not the God for >> Yeah. you know, that's not the God for everybody, you know, or if I make a everybody, you know, or if I make a everybody, you know, or if I make a Catholic, I meet the God for a Roman Catholic, I meet the God for a Roman Catholic, I meet the God for a Roman Catholic God for my denomination, you Catholic God for my denomination, you Catholic God for my denomination, you know, um that's narrow, you know, like I know, um that's narrow, you know, like I know, um that's narrow, you know, like I think what we need to do, John Marcus, think what we need to do, John Marcus, think what we need to do, John Marcus, and and I think that's part of growing and and I think that's part of growing and and I think that's part of growing spiritually is God becomes wider and spiritually is God becomes wider and spiritually is God becomes wider and more embracive and wider and more loving more embracive and wider and more loving more embracive and wider and more loving and more embracive and and after all and more embracive and and after all and more embracive and and after all said, God is more empath empathic than I said, God is more empath empathic than I said, God is more empath empathic than I am than anybody else. you know, like am than anybody else. you know, like am than anybody else. you know, like this answer, we understand kids, but God this answer, we understand kids, but God this answer, we understand kids, but God doesn't do us. doesn't do us. doesn't do us. Okay. Yeah. [clears throat] But I think Okay. Yeah. [clears throat] But I think Okay. Yeah. [clears throat] But I think that big thing is, you know, like um that big thing is, you know, like um that big thing is, you know, like um we've always, you know, and and again, we've always, you know, and and again, we've always, you know, and and again, we get back to denominationalism. It we get back to denominationalism. It we get back to denominationalism. It used to be denominations who's going to used to be denominations who's going to used to be denominations who's going to heaven and who isn't, you know, so today heaven and who isn't, you know, so today heaven and who isn't, you know, so today God isn't a Catholic God or an God isn't a Catholic God or an God isn't a Catholic God or an evangelical God or isn't even evangelical God or isn't even evangelical God or isn't even necessarily completely a Christian God.

necessarily completely a Christian God. necessarily completely a Christian God. God is a God for everybody. Um and uh God is a God for everybody. Um and uh God is a God for everybody. Um and uh and I think that's the stretch for us. and I think that's the stretch for us. and I think that's the stretch for us. You know, You know, You know, >> Father Ron and John Mark, you brought >> Father Ron and John Mark, you brought >> Father Ron and John Mark, you brought the question about spirituality and the question about spirituality and the question about spirituality and theology. theology. theology. uh which I think is really interesting. uh which I think is really interesting. uh which I think is really interesting. But I just I just I have this thought in But I just I just I have this thought in But I just I just I have this thought in my mind because the thing I love about my mind because the thing I love about my mind because the thing I love about your writing so far and I've read one your writing so far and I've read one your writing so far and I've read one book, but I mean I'm diving into the book, but I mean I'm diving into the book, but I mean I'm diving into the whole series as uh as the summer and whole series as uh as the summer and whole series as uh as the summer and year goes on. But if you think about the year goes on. But if you think about the year goes on. But if you think about the game versus the rules, it's almost is it game versus the rules, it's almost is it game versus the rules, it's almost is it right to think because maybe I've got right to think because maybe I've got right to think because maybe I've got this framing wrong that Jesus would look this framing wrong that Jesus would look this framing wrong that Jesus would look at a Pharisee and say, "Okay, you at a Pharisee and say, "Okay, you at a Pharisee and say, "Okay, you understand the rule book, but you're not understand the rule book, but you're not understand the rule book, but you're not playing the game. This isn't the game." playing the game. This isn't the game." playing the game. This isn't the game." And then sometimes he'd meet like this And then sometimes he'd meet like this And then sometimes he'd meet like this woman caught in adultery, u sinners, tax woman caught in adultery, u sinners, tax woman caught in adultery, u sinners, tax collectors. He'd say, "Oh, you're collectors. He'd say, "Oh, you're collectors. He'd say, "Oh, you're playing the game, but this game has some playing the game, but this game has some playing the game, but this game has some rules." Is it a little bit like that rules." Is it a little bit like that rules." Is it a little bit like that that that Jesus would see people who that that Jesus would see people who that that Jesus would see people who were quote outside and go, "Oh, you you were quote outside and go, "Oh, you you were quote outside and go, "Oh, you you you're you're in the game, but there's you're you're in the game, but there's you're you're in the game, but there's some rules." And then people who are some rules." And then people who are some rules." And then people who are inside, inside, inside, you got the rules sort of, but there's a you got the rules sort of, but there's a you got the rules sort of, but there's a game.

game. game. >> Or is that the wrong way to think about >> Or is that the wrong way to think about >> Or is that the wrong way to think about it? it? it? >> No, no. I I think what the point we have >> No, no. I I think what the point we have >> No, no. I I think what the point we have to take from that is like and scripture to take from that is like and scripture to take from that is like and scripture scholars will tell you that there's scholars will tell you that there's scholars will tell you that there's never an instant in scripture of Jesus never an instant in scripture of Jesus never an instant in scripture of Jesus rejecting somebody coming to him you rejecting somebody coming to him you rejecting somebody coming to him you know to eat or be with him you so on and know to eat or be with him you so on and know to eat or be with him you so on and see sometimes the roles and you know um see sometimes the roles and you know um see sometimes the roles and you know um and and so that that that Jesus is and and so that that that Jesus is and and so that that that Jesus is accessible to everybody he's accessible accessible to everybody he's accessible accessible to everybody he's accessible to the Pharisee but he's accessible to to the Pharisee but he's accessible to to the Pharisee but he's accessible to you know the tax collectors and the you know the tax collectors and the you know the tax collectors and the prostitutes and so on um you know and prostitutes and so on um you know and prostitutes and so on um you know and for instance I for instance I for instance I Talk about Roman Catholics for instance. Talk about Roman Catholics for instance. Talk about Roman Catholics for instance. We have all kinds of restrictions about We have all kinds of restrictions about We have all kinds of restrictions about going to communion. If you come to you going to communion. If you come to you going to communion. If you come to you shouldn't go to communion. Like well shouldn't go to communion. Like well shouldn't go to communion. Like well I'll be honest. I disagree with that. I'll be honest. I disagree with that. I'll be honest. I disagree with that. You know like u like why can't you go to You know like u like why can't you go to You know like u like why can't you go to communion? You know um um you know they communion? You know um um you know they communion? You know um um you know they say well Paul because it's interesting say well Paul because it's interesting say well Paul because it's interesting scholars will tell you scripture scholars will tell you scripture scholars will tell you scripture scholars there's never an instance of scholars there's never an instance of scholars there's never an instance of Jesus rejecting somebody. He even gave Jesus rejecting somebody. He even gave Jesus rejecting somebody. He even gave Judas Judas Judas love and communion at the last supper. love and communion at the last supper. love and communion at the last supper. You know, now Paul has a couple of You know, now Paul has a couple of You know, now Paul has a couple of things about the Eucharist, but they're things about the Eucharist, but they're things about the Eucharist, but they're egregious. One of them is he said, egregious. One of them is he said, egregious. One of them is he said, "Don't give it to them if they're "Don't give it to them if they're "Don't give it to them if they're drunk."

drunk." drunk." Okay, Okay, Okay, >> not a bad boundary. >> not a bad boundary. >> not a bad boundary. >> And the other one is this in a small >> And the other one is this in a small >> And the other one is this in a small community. This guy was sleeping with community. This guy was sleeping with community. This guy was sleeping with his mother and John. his mother and John. his mother and John. I mean, careful with the Eucharist. But I mean, careful with the Eucharist. But I mean, careful with the Eucharist. But those are pretty egregious conditions, those are pretty egregious conditions, those are pretty egregious conditions, you know. Um but our churches have made you know. Um but our churches have made you know. Um but our churches have made them, you know, you know, here's them, you know, you know, here's them, you know, you know, here's you know the rules and so on. you know the rules and so on. you know the rules and so on. Theologically I can say that Theologically I can say that Theologically I can say that theologically baptism is entry for theologically baptism is entry for theologically baptism is entry for communion in any church. communion in any church. communion in any church. You're baptized you can come to Roman You're baptized you can come to Roman You're baptized you can come to Roman Catholic I come to your church and so Catholic I come to your church and so Catholic I come to your church and so on. Uh now we live in families and on. Uh now we live in families and on. Uh now we live in families and families usually eat with themselves families usually eat with themselves families usually eat with themselves with it you know but but also families with it you know but but also families with it you know but but also families have other people eating with them on on have other people eating with them on on have other people eating with them on on occasion. So you know um so for instance occasion. So you know um so for instance occasion. So you know um so for instance I have no hesitation about going to I have no hesitation about going to I have no hesitation about going to communion any any Christian church you communion any any Christian church you communion any any Christian church you know um and uh know um and uh know um and uh but I think we have we have to liberate but I think we have we have to liberate but I think we have we have to liberate Jesus and and and and God from Jesus and and and and God from Jesus and and and and God from narrowness.

narrowness. narrowness. >> I'd love to get back to bitterness. I >> I'd love to get back to bitterness. I >> I'd love to get back to bitterness. I believe you say in the book Insane for believe you say in the book Insane for believe you say in the book Insane for the Light, you talk about as you age, the Light, you talk about as you age, the Light, you talk about as you age, there are only three phrases, three there are only three phrases, three there are only three phrases, three words, I think it was three that need to words, I think it was three that need to words, I think it was three that need to come out of your mouth. come out of your mouth. come out of your mouth. >> Do you remember that? Like could you >> Do you remember that? Like could you >> Do you remember that? Like could you talk to us about that? Yeah, I would talk to us about that? Yeah, I would talk to us about that? Yeah, I would love that. That was really convicting love that. That was really convicting love that. That was really convicting and something I'm working on now. and something I'm working on now. and something I'm working on now. >> I don't know if you know who Morris West >> I don't know if you know who Morris West >> I don't know if you know who Morris West was. Morris West was an Australian was. Morris West was an Australian was. Morris West was an Australian novelist, very famous. He wrote like The novelist, very famous. He wrote like The novelist, very famous. He wrote like The Shoes of the Fisherman to make different Shoes of the Fisherman to make different Shoes of the Fisherman to make different movies for him. But but West had a movies for him. But but West had a movies for him. But but West had a pretty tough life. I mean, he had um was pretty tough life. I mean, he had um was pretty tough life. I mean, he had um was a very sensitive man. He was censored by a very sensitive man. He was censored by a very sensitive man. He was censored by the Catholic Church a couple of times the Catholic Church a couple of times the Catholic Church a couple of times and so on. Um but he wrote his and so on. Um but he wrote his and so on. Um but he wrote his autobiography and published it when he autobiography and published it when he autobiography and published it when he was 70. And he begins the words the was 70. And he begins the words the was 70. And he begins the words the these words. He said, "When you get to these words. He said, "When you get to these words. He said, "When you get to be 70 years old, there should only be be 70 years old, there should only be be 70 years old, there should only be three phrases left in your vocabulary. three phrases left in your vocabulary. three phrases left in your vocabulary. Thank you, thank you, and thank you. And Thank you, thank you, and thank you. And Thank you, thank you, and thank you. And if those aren't the three phrases, you if those aren't the three phrases, you if those aren't the three phrases, you have a lot of inner work yet to do. No, have a lot of inner work yet to do. No, have a lot of inner work yet to do. No, he's right. You know, like um where he's right. You know, like um where he's right. You know, like um where Andrew really once said, there's only Andrew really once said, there's only Andrew really once said, there's only one moral imperative. You don't want to one moral imperative. You don't want to one moral imperative. You don't want to die an angry, bitter person. You know, die an angry, bitter person. You know, die an angry, bitter person. You know, um you know that uh so that as we get um you know that uh so that as we get um you know that uh so that as we get older, we can slim our spiritual older, we can slim our spiritual older, we can slim our spiritual vocabulary down to gratitude, vocabulary down to gratitude, vocabulary down to gratitude, forgiveness, gratitude, and forgiveness.

forgiveness, gratitude, and forgiveness. forgiveness, gratitude, and forgiveness. Um that's the way you want to die. Father Ron, you've in Sacred Fire, you Father Ron, you've in Sacred Fire, you write about a three or four part write about a three or four part write about a three or four part framework of what we have to forgive. framework of what we have to forgive. framework of what we have to forgive. Forgiving others, forgiving ourselves, Forgiving others, forgiving ourselves, Forgiving others, forgiving ourselves, forgiving life, and at some level forgiving life, and at some level forgiving life, and at some level forgiving God. Can you say a word about forgiving God. Can you say a word about forgiving God. Can you say a word about each of those? each of those? each of those? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. thinking about you were saying like a thinking about you were saying like a thinking about you were saying like a key part of aging well is learning to key part of aging well is learning to key part of aging well is learning to forgive. Yeah. forgive. Yeah. forgive. Yeah. >> And cultivate gratitude rather than >> And cultivate gratitude rather than >> And cultivate gratitude rather than letting bitterness like a cancer spread letting bitterness like a cancer spread letting bitterness like a cancer spread through our body. through our body. through our body. >> So your four categories of what the work >> So your four categories of what the work >> So your four categories of what the work we have to do to forgive. we have to do to forgive. we have to do to forgive. >> Yeah. See, unless we die in infancy, >> Yeah. See, unless we die in infancy, >> Yeah. See, unless we die in infancy, first of all, we're going to have to first of all, we're going to have to first of all, we're going to have to forgive forgive forgive ourselves because we're going to hurt ourselves because we're going to hurt ourselves because we're going to hurt some people. we're not going to be some people. we're not going to be some people. we're not going to be completely faithful to God, to others, completely faithful to God, to others, completely faithful to God, to others, and so on. And then also secondly, we're and so on. And then also secondly, we're and so on. And then also secondly, we're going to get hurt. People are going to going to get hurt. People are going to going to get hurt. People are going to hurt us, you know. Um um nobody gets to hurt us, you know. Um um nobody gets to hurt us, you know. Um um nobody gets to be 40 years old without bearing some be 40 years old without bearing some be 40 years old without bearing some wounds, you know.

wounds, you know. wounds, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I like what um Ellis Miller, the famous >> I like what um Ellis Miller, the famous >> I like what um Ellis Miller, the famous psychologist, said when you're 40 years psychologist, said when you're 40 years psychologist, said when you're 40 years old, he said, you realize your mother old, he said, you realize your mother old, he said, you realize your mother did love your sister better than you. did love your sister better than you. did love your sister better than you. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> You need to forgive that. >> You need to forgive that. >> You need to forgive that. >> There's stuff to forgive. That's when >> There's stuff to forgive. That's when >> There's stuff to forgive. That's when you're [laughter] you're [laughter] you're [laughter] >> and then you have to forgive life and >> and then you have to forgive life and >> and then you have to forgive life and God because it isn't fair. So many God because it isn't fair. So many God because it isn't fair. So many people come in there to say this isn't people come in there to say this isn't people come in there to say this isn't fair. Like this person's 30 years old, fair. Like this person's 30 years old, fair. Like this person's 30 years old, she's a young mother. She's dying of she's a young mother. She's dying of she's a young mother. She's dying of cancer. This isn't fair. It isn't fair. cancer. This isn't fair. It isn't fair. cancer. This isn't fair. It isn't fair. You know, so um we have to forgive life. You know, so um we have to forgive life. You know, so um we have to forgive life. We have to forgive God because otherwise We have to forgive God because otherwise We have to forgive God because otherwise we will nurture those those grudges. we will nurture those those grudges. we will nurture those those grudges. >> And when you say forgive forgive God, >> And when you say forgive forgive God, >> And when you say forgive forgive God, you don't mean he actually is in like you don't mean he actually is in like you don't mean he actually is in like need of our forgiveness. You mean need of our forgiveness. You mean need of our forgiveness. You mean emotionally most of us if we have emotionally most of us if we have emotionally most of us if we have experience of real suffering experience of real suffering experience of real suffering >> we feel God how could you let this >> we feel God how could you let this >> we feel God how could you let this happen to me this is not fair this you happen to me this is not fair this you happen to me this is not fair this you know know know God's part on our part say for me to God's part on our part say for me to God's part on our part say for me to forgive God means I make peace with the forgive God means I make peace with the forgive God means I make peace with the fact fact fact >> yes >> yes >> yes >> that that God is love and I sometimes I >> that that God is love and I sometimes I >> that that God is love and I sometimes I I don't recognize that you know so it's I don't recognize that you know so it's I don't recognize that you know so it's it's a form of um it's a form of um it's a form of um >> a deep form of forgiving yourself you >> a deep form of forgiving yourself you >> a deep form of forgiving yourself you know like you have to come to peace with know like you have to come to peace with know like you have to come to peace with the fact that like I mean God doesn't the fact that like I mean God doesn't the fact that like I mean God doesn't need our forgiveness and God is fair and need our forgiveness and God is fair and need our forgiveness and God is fair and life in the end is fair in the big life in the end is fair in the big life in the end is fair in the big perspective. It isn't always fair in the perspective. It isn't always fair in the perspective. It isn't always fair in the in the the little perspective of our in the the little perspective of our in the the little perspective of our narrow lives. You know, narrow lives. You know, narrow lives. You know, >> in eternity, we won't be saying it >> in eternity, we won't be saying it >> in eternity, we won't be saying it wasn't fair, you know,

wasn't fair, you know, wasn't fair, you know, >> right? Say true and righteous were your >> right? Say true and righteous were your >> right? Say true and righteous were your judgments. judgments. judgments. >> Well, I think you get to the point where >> Well, I think you get to the point where >> Well, I think you get to the point where you are you are you are Yeah. You're in a place where that Yeah. You're in a place where that Yeah. You're in a place where that trauma loop when you realize my mom did trauma loop when you realize my mom did trauma loop when you realize my mom did love my sister more than she loved me love my sister more than she loved me love my sister more than she loved me plays out. Like I've seen people plays out. Like I've seen people plays out. Like I've seen people discover that in their 30s or their 40s discover that in their 30s or their 40s discover that in their 30s or their 40s in midlife, in midlife, in midlife, but continue that into their 70s, into but continue that into their 70s, into but continue that into their 70s, into their 80s. And you know, we've all done their 80s. And you know, we've all done their 80s. And you know, we've all done a lot of funerals. Boy, do you learn a lot of funerals. Boy, do you learn a lot of funerals. Boy, do you learn about family dynamics when you lead a about family dynamics when you lead a about family dynamics when you lead a family through a funeral? And two family through a funeral? And two family through a funeral? And two things, number one, how do you escape things, number one, how do you escape things, number one, how do you escape that where you realize, and I know you that where you realize, and I know you that where you realize, and I know you have to forgive, but I'd love a have to forgive, but I'd love a have to forgive, but I'd love a breakdown of the process. And then breakdown of the process. And then breakdown of the process. And then secondly, Father Ron, how has that shown secondly, Father Ron, how has that shown secondly, Father Ron, how has that shown up for you personally? Like as you up for you personally? Like as you up for you personally? Like as you navigated through midlife, what were navigated through midlife, what were navigated through midlife, what were some of the things you had to forgive or some of the things you had to forgive or some of the things you had to forgive or come to terms with and how did you do come to terms with and how did you do come to terms with and how did you do it? it? it? >> Yeah. Let me first take you know, you >> Yeah. Let me first take you know, you >> Yeah. Let me first take you know, you know, the trauma everybody hasn't. When know, the trauma everybody hasn't. When know, the trauma everybody hasn't. When you're 40 years old, you know, your you're 40 years old, you know, your you're 40 years old, you know, your mother did love your sister and you mother did love your sister and you mother did love your sister and you know, you're going to carry some wounds.

know, you're going to carry some wounds. know, you're going to carry some wounds. It's not a question of are you wounded? It's not a question of are you wounded? It's not a question of are you wounded? What are your wounds? Now Ellis Miller What are your wounds? Now Ellis Miller What are your wounds? Now Ellis Miller who coined that famous line Swiss who coined that famous line Swiss who coined that famous line Swiss psychologist she also said something psychologist she also said something psychologist she also said something psychologically that's very true psychologically that's very true psychologically that's very true spiritually says once you realize that spiritually says once you realize that spiritually says once you realize that said the major task of your life said the major task of your life said the major task of your life in midlife and beyond is to grieve those in midlife and beyond is to grieve those in midlife and beyond is to grieve those wounds. If you grieve them they'll turn wounds. If you grieve them they'll turn wounds. If you grieve them they'll turn soft. If you don't grieve them they're soft. If you don't grieve them they're soft. If you don't grieve them they're going to get hard you know and you're going to get hard you know and you're going to get hard you know and you're going to be a 70year-old and 80y old my going to be a 70year-old and 80y old my going to be a 70year-old and 80y old my mother loved my sister better than me. mother loved my sister better than me. mother loved my sister better than me. So it's just that grieving is a very So it's just that grieving is a very So it's just that grieving is a very very important part of spirituality and very important part of spirituality and very important part of spirituality and psycholog psycholog psycholog there's nothing you can do about it. You there's nothing you can do about it. You there's nothing you can do about it. You have to grieve it then you can let it have to grieve it then you can let it have to grieve it then you can let it go. You know you know there's a powerful go. You know you know there's a powerful go. You know you know there's a powerful metaphor in scripture that I like to metaphor in scripture that I like to metaphor in scripture that I like to draw out to people. I don't know if it's draw out to people. I don't know if it's draw out to people. I don't know if it's in the book but it's in in the book of in the book but it's in in the book of in the book but it's in in the book of Judges chapter 11. You know you know the Judges chapter 11. You know you know the Judges chapter 11. You know you know the Old Testament I always say the Old Old Testament I always say the Old Old Testament I always say the Old Testament should come with a warning Testament should come with a warning Testament should come with a warning label. You know, like sometimes they go label. You know, like sometimes they go label. You know, like sometimes they go to a movie and they say no real horses to a movie and they say no real horses to a movie and they say no real horses died making this film. They say no real died making this film. They say no real died making this film. They say no real people die in these stories, you know, people die in these stories, you know, people die in these stories, you know, but it's the story of this king who's at but it's the story of this king who's at but it's the story of this king who's at war and he's losing.

war and he's losing. war and he's losing. And um so he makes this deal with God. And um so he makes this deal with God. And um so he makes this deal with God. If you let me win, I'm going to kill on If you let me win, I'm going to kill on If you let me win, I'm going to kill on the altar of sacrifice the first person the altar of sacrifice the first person the altar of sacrifice the first person I see when I get back home. So God lets I see when I get back home. So God lets I see when I get back home. So God lets him win. He comes home, crosses the him win. He comes home, crosses the him win. He comes home, crosses the border. The first person he meets is his border. The first person he meets is his border. The first person he meets is his daughter in the bloom of youth. And now daughter in the bloom of youth. And now daughter in the bloom of youth. And now he's saddened. He said, "This is he's saddened. He said, "This is he's saddened. He said, "This is terrible. I made this deal." The woman terrible. I made this deal." The woman terrible. I made this deal." The woman said, "No, no." The daughter said, "I said, "No, no." The daughter said, "I said, "No, no." The daughter said, "I can do this, but I can't do it right can do this, but I can't do it right can do this, but I can't do it right away." He said, "You have to give me 40 away." He said, "You have to give me 40 away." He said, "You have to give me 40 days and 40 nights to go into the days and 40 nights to go into the days and 40 nights to go into the wilderness and to grieve the fact that wilderness and to grieve the fact that wilderness and to grieve the fact that I'm going to die a virgin." So, she goes I'm going to die a virgin." So, she goes I'm going to die a virgin." So, she goes and she does the grieving. She comes and she does the grieving. She comes and she does the grieving. She comes diet the altar of sacrifice. Now, that's diet the altar of sacrifice. Now, that's diet the altar of sacrifice. Now, that's a powerful story. You know, basically, a powerful story. You know, basically, a powerful story. You know, basically, I said, "I have to grieve my virginity." I said, "I have to grieve my virginity." I said, "I have to grieve my virginity." That's true for all of us. We have to That's true for all of us. We have to That's true for all of us. We have to grieve the unfulfilled parts of our grieve the unfulfilled parts of our grieve the unfulfilled parts of our life. You know, as Carl Roner used to life. You know, as Carl Roner used to life. You know, as Carl Roner used to say, nobody gets to finish symphony. say, nobody gets to finish symphony. say, nobody gets to finish symphony. We're all going to die the virgin in We're all going to die the virgin in We're all going to die the virgin in that sense. And so if we grieve it, we that sense. And so if we grieve it, we that sense. And so if we grieve it, we can let it go. She said, I I can't let can let it go. She said, I I can't let can let it go. She said, I I can't let this go if I don't first cry about it, this go if I don't first cry about it, this go if I don't first cry about it, otherwise my heart will be hard. She otherwise my heart will be hard. She otherwise my heart will be hard. She grieavves it, she can die, you know. Um grieavves it, she can die, you know. Um grieavves it, she can die, you know. Um and so like more and more in in my and so like more and more in in my and so like more and more in in my spiritual I'm trying to work in for spiritual I'm trying to work in for spiritual I'm trying to work in for personally for others a spirituality of personally for others a spirituality of personally for others a spirituality of grieving grieving grieving >> you know um and I think we need that for >> you know um and I think we need that for >> you know um and I think we need that for our churches that you know like we don't our churches that you know like we don't our churches that you know like we don't leave enough room I think in our leave enough room I think in our leave enough room I think in our spirituality churches for grieving to be spirituality churches for grieving to be spirituality churches for grieving to be sad you know remember you come out and sad you know remember you come out and sad you know remember you come out and cheer up we're all here Jesus is

cheer up we're all here Jesus is cheer up we're all here Jesus is wonderful wonderful wonderful and that's true sometimes and sometimes and that's true sometimes and sometimes and that's true sometimes and sometimes that say like let's all just have a good that say like let's all just have a good that say like let's all just have a good cry. Um cry. Um cry. Um like we do it at funerals, you know, we like we do it at funerals, you know, we like we do it at funerals, you know, we have one ritual where you're allowed to have one ritual where you're allowed to have one ritual where you're allowed to grieve in church funerals, but we need grieve in church funerals, but we need grieve in church funerals, but we need to um to um to um we need to work spirituality of grieving we need to work spirituality of grieving we need to work spirituality of grieving more into more into more into give about your give about your give about your >> Carl Roner quote that you know all of us >> Carl Roner quote that you know all of us >> Carl Roner quote that you know all of us die with an unfinished symphony is we die with an unfinished symphony is we die with an unfinished symphony is we have to grieve what's happened to us. have to grieve what's happened to us. have to grieve what's happened to us. our mother loved our sister more than us our mother loved our sister more than us our mother loved our sister more than us or whatever. But we also have to grieve or whatever. But we also have to grieve or whatever. But we also have to grieve what has not happened to us. Huh? what has not happened to us. Huh? what has not happened to us. Huh? >> Y >> Y >> Y >> the unfulfilled dreams and longings, the >> the unfulfilled dreams and longings, the >> the unfulfilled dreams and longings, the life we wanted to have but never will life we wanted to have but never will life we wanted to have but never will have. And it's going to look different have. And it's going to look different have. And it's going to look different for each person, but yet every single for each person, but yet every single for each person, but yet every single person listening is going to have things person listening is going to have things person listening is going to have things that have happened to them that they that have happened to them that they that have happened to them that they have to grieve have to grieve have to grieve >> and things that have not and will not >> and things that have not and will not >> and things that have not and will not ever happen to them that they ache for.

ever happen to them that they ache for. ever happen to them that they ache for. and they're going to live with the and they're going to live with the and they're going to live with the unfinished symphony. I certainly do in unfinished symphony. I certainly do in unfinished symphony. I certainly do in my life. Holy cow. And we have to grieve my life. Holy cow. And we have to grieve my life. Holy cow. And we have to grieve both. Is that what I'm hearing you say? both. Is that what I'm hearing you say? both. Is that what I'm hearing you say? No. John Mark, in my life and writings, No. John Mark, in my life and writings, No. John Mark, in my life and writings, the one thing that goes through them all the one thing that goes through them all the one thing that goes through them all is that great quote from a St. is that great quote from a St. is that great quote from a St. Augustine. You've made us for yourself Augustine. You've made us for yourself Augustine. You've made us for yourself lords and our hearts are restless till lords and our hearts are restless till lords and our hearts are restless till they rest in you. Basically, there's they rest in you. Basically, there's they rest in you. Basically, there's that's the unfinished sympathy. No that's the unfinished sympathy. No that's the unfinished sympathy. No matter how good life is, no matter how matter how good life is, no matter how matter how good life is, no matter how good your marriage is or whatever, it's good your marriage is or whatever, it's good your marriage is or whatever, it's not enough. You you're an infinite not enough. You you're an infinite not enough. You you're an infinite spirit in a finite world. Um that that spirit in a finite world. Um that that spirit in a finite world. Um that that quote from Augustine for me it's that quote from Augustine for me it's that quote from Augustine for me it's that speaks volumes. speaks volumes. speaks volumes. >> Yeah. which I think goes back, you know, which I think goes back, you know, Carrie, don't you think to leaders Carrie, don't you think to leaders Carrie, don't you think to leaders if if you have, again, I'm going to put if if you have, again, I'm going to put if if you have, again, I'm going to put success in verbal square scare quotes, success in verbal square scare quotes, success in verbal square scare quotes, you know, in the American sense of you know, in the American sense of you know, in the American sense of success, some success, some success, some >> up and to the right in your career or, >> up and to the right in your career or, >> up and to the right in your career or, you know, we call it ministry, not you know, we call it ministry, not you know, we call it ministry, not career, but in pastoral world, but career, but in pastoral world, but career, but in pastoral world, but there's overlap certainly in many ways, there's overlap certainly in many ways, there's overlap certainly in many ways, it's setting you up for failure. Huh.

it's setting you up for failure. Huh. it's setting you up for failure. Huh. Because you can believe the delusion Because you can believe the delusion Because you can believe the delusion more than most people who maybe get more than most people who maybe get more than most people who maybe get there earlier because of trauma or there earlier because of trauma or there earlier because of trauma or poverty or oppression or injustice or poverty or oppression or injustice or poverty or oppression or injustice or failure or disease. They get there failure or disease. They get there failure or disease. They get there earlier but all of us get there earlier but all of us get there earlier but all of us get there eventually you know where man this is eventually you know where man this is eventually you know where man this is this is no longer up into the right. this is no longer up into the right. this is no longer up into the right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> John Mark if I can say something like >> John Mark if I can say something like >> John Mark if I can say something like for church leaders you know. for church leaders you know. for church leaders you know. >> Yes please. in all denominations, >> Yes please. in all denominations, >> Yes please. in all denominations, >> you know. Now, I'll use myself as an >> you know. Now, I'll use myself as an >> you know. Now, I'll use myself as an example. In the seminary, they teach you example. In the seminary, they teach you example. In the seminary, they teach you scripture and how to do ministry, but scripture and how to do ministry, but scripture and how to do ministry, but they don't often teach you what ministry they don't often teach you what ministry they don't often teach you what ministry is going to do to you, both failure and is going to do to you, both failure and is going to do to you, both failure and success. You know, if if I'm giving a success. You know, if if I'm giving a success. You know, if if I'm giving a homaly or and and the people are just homaly or and and the people are just homaly or and and the people are just eating it all up and they say, "God, eating it all up and they say, "God, eating it all up and they say, "God, you're wonderful." You can't protect you're wonderful." You can't protect you're wonderful." You can't protect yourself against that. that's going to yourself against that. that's going to yourself against that. that's going to stimulate certain grandiosity inside of stimulate certain grandiosity inside of stimulate certain grandiosity inside of you or vice versa. They're looking, you you or vice versa. They're looking, you you or vice versa. They're looking, you say, "Why did you just die? You're the say, "Why did you just die? You're the say, "Why did you just die? You're the most boring." You, you know, you can't most boring." You, you know, you can't most boring." You, you know, you can't protect yourself from rejection and you protect yourself from rejection and you protect yourself from rejection and you can't protect yourself from affirmation.

can't protect yourself from affirmation. can't protect yourself from affirmation. you know um you know when whenever I get you know um you know when whenever I get you know um you know when whenever I get a chance to talk to seminarians or a chance to talk to seminarians or a chance to talk to seminarians or something I just said like be prepared something I just said like be prepared something I just said like be prepared you know and what we need is we all need you know and what we need is we all need you know and what we need is we all need a deep prayer life to deflate a deep prayer life to deflate a deep prayer life to deflate grandiosity and to raise up the grandiosity and to raise up the grandiosity and to raise up the depression cuz you know we are always depression cuz you know we are always depression cuz you know we are always receiving affirmation or rejection receiving affirmation or rejection receiving affirmation or rejection >> and and you know because we're not we >> and and you know because we're not we >> and and you know because we're not we can pretend we're Jesus it doesn't can pretend we're Jesus it doesn't can pretend we're Jesus it doesn't bother me you know it bothers me you bother me you know it bothers me you bother me you know it bothers me you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, you need cracks. You need space. >> Well, you need cracks. You need space. >> Well, you need cracks. You need space. Like when you think about grieving and Like when you think about grieving and Like when you think about grieving and another podcast guest many episodes ago, another podcast guest many episodes ago, another podcast guest many episodes ago, Dr. Terry Wortle uh was a spiritual Dr. Terry Wortle uh was a spiritual Dr. Terry Wortle uh was a spiritual director for me over 20 years ago and I director for me over 20 years ago and I director for me over 20 years ago and I used to go to his retreats and I used to go to his retreats and I used to go to his retreats and I remember Terry said, and this gets remember Terry said, and this gets remember Terry said, and this gets recqued all the time because I share it recqued all the time because I share it recqued all the time because I share it all the time. Ministry is a series of all the time. Ministry is a series of all the time. Ministry is a series of ung losses. ung losses. ung losses. >> Ministry. Wow. So they get ministry is >> Ministry. Wow. So they get ministry is >> Ministry. Wow. So they get ministry is >> ministry is a series of ungrerieved >> ministry is a series of ungrerieved >> ministry is a series of ungrerieved losses. losses. losses. And I think I think life is a series of And I think I think life is a series of And I think I think life is a series of ungraved losses. And I think they show ungraved losses. And I think they show ungraved losses. And I think they show up in two ways, Father. And John Mark, up in two ways, Father. And John Mark, up in two ways, Father. And John Mark, they show up when you don't pay they show up when you don't pay they show up when you don't pay attention to them. They come out as attention to them. They come out as attention to them. They come out as toxic. In other words, I'm just yelling toxic. In other words, I'm just yelling toxic. In other words, I'm just yelling at you all day or I'm frustrated or, you at you all day or I'm frustrated or, you at you all day or I'm frustrated or, you know, my cortisol is through the roof.

know, my cortisol is through the roof. know, my cortisol is through the roof. And they kind of take you out that way. And they kind of take you out that way. And they kind of take you out that way. or what I find and I when you were or what I find and I when you were or what I find and I when you were talking about grieving talking about grieving talking about grieving um by the way in seminary they teach you um by the way in seminary they teach you um by the way in seminary they teach you how to do ministry but they don't teach how to do ministry but they don't teach how to do ministry but they don't teach you what ministry is going to do to you. you what ministry is going to do to you. you what ministry is going to do to you. Oh my goodness, I wrote that down. Wow, Oh my goodness, I wrote that down. Wow, Oh my goodness, I wrote that down. Wow, you're right. But I there was a life you're right. But I there was a life you're right. But I there was a life loss that an unexpected loss that an unexpected loss that an unexpected I don't want to say what it was because I don't want to say what it was because I don't want to say what it was because it's too personal of somebody very close it's too personal of somebody very close it's too personal of somebody very close to me that I thought our relationship to me that I thought our relationship to me that I thought our relationship was going to look different and the song was going to look different and the song was going to look different and the song came on and of all songs it was Matchbox came on and of all songs it was Matchbox came on and of all songs it was Matchbox 20. I don't know why Rob Thomas writes 20. I don't know why Rob Thomas writes 20. I don't know why Rob Thomas writes some good lyrics and I'm in my house some good lyrics and I'm in my house some good lyrics and I'm in my house sorting the laundry and I just start to sorting the laundry and I just start to sorting the laundry and I just start to sob and so and so and I just kept sob and so and so and I just kept sob and so and so and I just kept sobbing for about 20 25 minutes and I sobbing for about 20 25 minutes and I sobbing for about 20 25 minutes and I was praying while I was crying and was praying while I was crying and was praying while I was crying and listening to the song on repeat and then listening to the song on repeat and then listening to the song on repeat and then it lifted. it lifted. it lifted. But if I have no, speaking of But if I have no, speaking of But if I have no, speaking of leadership, if I have no space in my leadership, if I have no space in my leadership, if I have no space in my life, if it's just one task after life, if it's just one task after life, if it's just one task after another and one sermon after another and another and one sermon after another and another and one sermon after another and one flight after another and one thing, one flight after another and one thing, one flight after another and one thing, and John Mark, you know this better than and John Mark, you know this better than and John Mark, you know this better than anybody, your soul has no room to anybody, your soul has no room to anybody, your soul has no room to breathe. Your soul has no room to breathe. Your soul has no room to breathe. Your soul has no room to grieve. I'd love your observations on grieve. I'd love your observations on grieve. I'd love your observations on space, healing, and time. And I wonder space, healing, and time. And I wonder space, healing, and time. And I wonder if that's why some people get to 70 or if that's why some people get to 70 or if that's why some people get to 70 or 80 and they're just bitter because they 80 and they're just bitter because they 80 and they're just bitter because they ran from event to event or lived on the ran from event to event or lived on the ran from event to event or lived on the surface and they never went there surface and they never went there surface and they never went there because they didn't want to go there.

because they didn't want to go there. because they didn't want to go there. They knew it'd be too painful and now it They knew it'd be too painful and now it They knew it'd be too painful and now it just all comes out as bitterness. Just just all comes out as bitterness. Just just all comes out as bitterness. Just riff on that for a little while cuz I riff on that for a little while cuz I riff on that for a little while cuz I think I wonder if there's something think I wonder if there's something think I wonder if there's something there. there. there. How do you grieve? Well, um I'm I'm not sure we know how to Well, um I'm I'm not sure we know how to grieve, you know, like for instance that grieve, you know, like for instance that grieve, you know, like for instance that the the instant you tal that's a big the the instant you tal that's a big the the instant you tal that's a big moment of grace, you know. Um I think we moment of grace, you know. Um I think we moment of grace, you know. Um I think we have to teach grieving and maybe even have to teach grieving and maybe even have to teach grieving and maybe even devise rituals for grieving, devise rituals for grieving, devise rituals for grieving, you know. Um I'll give you an example of you know. Um I'll give you an example of you know. Um I'll give you an example of a ritual for grieving. I was teaching at a ritual for grieving. I was teaching at a ritual for grieving. I was teaching at Seattle University one summer course in Seattle University one summer course in Seattle University one summer course in anthropology. There was a woman, she was anthropology. There was a woman, she was anthropology. There was a woman, she was the wife of a Presbyterian minister in the wife of a Presbyterian minister in the wife of a Presbyterian minister in the class. She's about mid-40s the class. She's about mid-40s the class. She's about mid-40s and whatever reason she's happily and whatever reason she's happily and whatever reason she's happily married but whatever reason she couldn't married but whatever reason she couldn't married but whatever reason she couldn't have children you know so she made no have children you know so she made no have children you know so she made no bones about the fact that this was a bones about the fact that this was a bones about the fact that this was a deep deep wound and u so she wrote her deep deep wound and u so she wrote her deep deep wound and u so she wrote her thesis on barrenness in scripture and thesis on barrenness in scripture and thesis on barrenness in scripture and then for about 20 years I can use your then for about 20 years I can use your then for about 20 years I can use your name because she does it publicly Sher name because she does it publicly Sher name because she does it publicly Sher Castro she tour United States and Canada Castro she tour United States and Canada Castro she tour United States and Canada and gave retreats on grieving for people and gave retreats on grieving for people and gave retreats on grieving for people who couldn't have children and I went to who couldn't have children and I went to who couldn't have children and I went to one of them as a priest as the only man one of them as a priest as the only man one of them as a priest as the only man there, you know, but she would ritually there, you know, but she would ritually there, you know, but she would ritually lead these women to say like this is a lead these women to say like this is a lead these women to say like this is a wound. Feel it, feel it, cry about it, wound. Feel it, feel it, cry about it, wound. Feel it, feel it, cry about it, you know. Um and and there was a lot of you know. Um and and there was a lot of you know. Um and and there was a lot of relief for some of these women, you relief for some of these women, you relief for some of these women, you know. Um you know, so that um know. Um you know, so that um know. Um you know, so that um [clears throat] but sometimes, for [clears throat] but sometimes, for [clears throat] but sometimes, for instance, when I do priest retreats,

instance, when I do priest retreats, instance, when I do priest retreats, I'll tell priests if you ever grieved I'll tell priests if you ever grieved I'll tell priests if you ever grieved your celibacy, you ever grieved the fact your celibacy, you ever grieved the fact your celibacy, you ever grieved the fact that you're not married, you don't have that you're not married, you don't have that you're not married, you don't have sex, you're not going to have children? sex, you're not going to have children? sex, you're not going to have children? I said like that's a deep wound. It's I said like that's a deep wound. It's I said like that's a deep wound. It's got to be grieved, you know. Um and um got to be grieved, you know. Um and um got to be grieved, you know. Um and um you know like go on a retreat somewhere, you know like go on a retreat somewhere, you know like go on a retreat somewhere, work with a spiritual director, you work with a spiritual director, you work with a spiritual director, you know, like um um you know like um or for know, like um um you know like um or for know, like um um you know like um or for instance like I do a lot of work with instance like I do a lot of work with instance like I do a lot of work with suicide now. We and then um um when we suicide now. We and then um um when we suicide now. We and then um um when we work with people who lose somebody to work with people who lose somebody to work with people who lose somebody to suicide, you know, we try to devise suicide, you know, we try to devise suicide, you know, we try to devise grieving rituals for them. You know, grieving rituals for them. You know, grieving rituals for them. You know, first of all, this is horrible. Feel it. first of all, this is horrible. Feel it. first of all, this is horrible. Feel it. drink it in. Um you know when um so so drink it in. Um you know when um so so drink it in. Um you know when um so so that um when it doesn't bother me that um when it doesn't bother me that um when it doesn't bother me doesn't bother me. doesn't bother me. doesn't bother me. You know there's a wonderful You know there's a wonderful You know there's a wonderful psychological image you know where they psychological image you know where they psychological image you know where they say you know imagine you're living in a say you know imagine you're living in a say you know imagine you're living in a two-story building and with a basement two-story building and with a basement two-story building and with a basement and every time you have some garbage you and every time you have some garbage you and every time you have some garbage you just open the door and throw it in the just open the door and throw it in the just open the door and throw it in the basement you know out of sight out of basement you know out of sight out of basement you know out of sight out of mind. What's going to happen? It's going mind. What's going to happen? It's going mind. What's going to happen? It's going to ferment and come up through the to ferment and come up through the to ferment and come up through the vents. Um, that's what happens whenever vents. Um, that's what happens whenever vents. Um, that's what happens whenever in denial. It fermentss and comes up in denial. It fermentss and comes up in denial. It fermentss and comes up through the vents. So, if I haven't through the vents. So, if I haven't through the vents. So, if I haven't grieved my celibacy, I'm probably going grieved my celibacy, I'm probably going grieved my celibacy, I'm probably going to have a power shadow or have something to have a power shadow or have something to have a power shadow or have something else or whatever, you know, um um else or whatever, you know, um um else or whatever, you know, um um whatever is in grief is going to it's whatever is in grief is going to it's whatever is in grief is going to it's going to ferment and come up, you know, going to ferment and come up, you know, going to ferment and come up, you know, including that my mother did love my including that my mother did love my including that my mother did love my sister better than me.

sister better than me. sister better than me. >> I'm I'm thinking of uh the psychologist >> I'm I'm thinking of uh the psychologist >> I'm I'm thinking of uh the psychologist and spiritual director David Benner in and spiritual director David Benner in and spiritual director David Benner in one of his older books. this great line one of his older books. this great line one of his older books. this great line where he writes, "Fro was wrong about where he writes, "Fro was wrong about where he writes, "Fro was wrong about pretty much everything, but he was right pretty much everything, but he was right pretty much everything, but he was right that whatever we refuse to acknowledge that whatever we refuse to acknowledge that whatever we refuse to acknowledge about ourselves, we give the most about ourselves, we give the most about ourselves, we give the most power." power." power." >> Yeah, he's right. I also like his line >> Yeah, he's right. I also like his line >> Yeah, he's right. I also like his line that understand things when they're that understand things when they're that understand things when they're broken. If you look at something that's broken. If you look at something that's broken. If you look at something that's broken, you know, like for instance, broken, you know, like for instance, broken, you know, like for instance, >> you can see what's wrong. Yeah. >> you can see what's wrong. Yeah. >> you can see what's wrong. Yeah. Interesting. And you could almost like Interesting. And you could almost like Interesting. And you could almost like rely rely rely >> this isn't how it's supposed to be. >> this isn't how it's supposed to be. >> this isn't how it's supposed to be. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> To quote Plentinga, you know. >> To quote Plentinga, you know. >> To quote Plentinga, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> John Mark, I'd love to know for you, and >> John Mark, I'd love to know for you, and >> John Mark, I'd love to know for you, and I know we're interviewing Father Ron I know we're interviewing Father Ron I know we're interviewing Father Ron together today, but like you led a big together today, but like you led a big together today, but like you led a big large church in Portland for years. What large church in Portland for years. What large church in Portland for years. What did grieving look like then when you did grieving look like then when you did grieving look like then when you were under the pressure of Sunday to were under the pressure of Sunday to were under the pressure of Sunday to Sunday to Sunday? And what does it look Sunday to Sunday? And what does it look Sunday to Sunday? And what does it look like now? And what should it have looked like now? And what should it have looked like now? And what should it have looked like then?

Well, I think just first I really Well, I think just first I really resonate with the pain of the pastoral resonate with the pain of the pastoral resonate with the pain of the pastoral task because there's so much grief. I task because there's so much grief. I task because there's so much grief. I really resonate with what you said. You really resonate with what you said. You really resonate with what you said. You know, you experience so much praise and know, you experience so much praise and know, you experience so much praise and so much criticism and both are so much criticism and both are so much criticism and both are exaggerated. So people have an inflated exaggerated. So people have an inflated exaggerated. So people have an inflated view of you or a deflated. Like most view of you or a deflated. Like most view of you or a deflated. Like most people I experience think I'm better people I experience think I'm better people I experience think I'm better than I am or I worse or I'm worse than I than I am or I worse or I'm worse than I than I am or I worse or I'm worse than I am. Very few people have an accurate am. Very few people have an accurate am. Very few people have an accurate picture of my life except for the people picture of my life except for the people picture of my life except for the people I'm in close community with, you know, I'm in close community with, you know, I'm in close community with, you know, and that does something toxic to the and that does something toxic to the and that does something toxic to the soul, you know, both the exaltation and soul, you know, both the exaltation and soul, you know, both the exaltation and the unhealthy toxic kind of humiliation the unhealthy toxic kind of humiliation the unhealthy toxic kind of humiliation of ministry. And it's just crisis after of ministry. And it's just crisis after of ministry. And it's just crisis after crisis. I remember Pete Scazero said to crisis. I remember Pete Scazero said to crisis. I remember Pete Scazero said to me years ago when I was stepping down me years ago when I was stepping down me years ago when I was stepping down for Bridgetown, he's like, "You have to for Bridgetown, he's like, "You have to for Bridgetown, he's like, "You have to understand ministry doesn't just have understand ministry doesn't just have understand ministry doesn't just have crisises or crises, whatever the plural crisises or crises, whatever the plural crisises or crises, whatever the plural is there. It's just crisis after crisis is there. It's just crisis after crisis is there. It's just crisis after crisis after crisis. Like that's the job after crisis. Like that's the job after crisis. Like that's the job >> is >> is >> is >> preaching on Sunday and managing crisis, >> preaching on Sunday and managing crisis, >> preaching on Sunday and managing crisis, you know, you know, you know, >> and so um I I think it's the beauty of >> and so um I I think it's the beauty of >> and so um I I think it's the beauty of it, Carrie, is it's not rocket science.

it, Carrie, is it's not rocket science. it, Carrie, is it's not rocket science. I think both of those, the devil I think both of those, the devil I think both of those, the devil messiah, praise, criticism, exaltation, messiah, praise, criticism, exaltation, messiah, praise, criticism, exaltation, humiliation, and the crisis after humiliation, and the crisis after humiliation, and the crisis after crisis, loss after loss, grief after crisis, loss after loss, grief after crisis, loss after loss, grief after grief. both of them. I think it seems grief. both of them. I think it seems grief. both of them. I think it seems like the playbook that I've run in my like the playbook that I've run in my like the playbook that I've run in my life that is certainly not original to life that is certainly not original to life that is certainly not original to me is not rocket science. It's so me is not rocket science. It's so me is not rocket science. It's so simple. Like there are just three things simple. Like there are just three things simple. Like there are just three things I see in the life of Jesus that seem to I see in the life of Jesus that seem to I see in the life of Jesus that seem to be how he stewarded that. One is be how he stewarded that. One is be how he stewarded that. One is disproportionate amount of time in disproportionate amount of time in disproportionate amount of time in silence, solitude, and stillness. I silence, solitude, and stillness. I silence, solitude, and stillness. I mean, he's just you cannot turn the page mean, he's just you cannot turn the page mean, he's just you cannot turn the page in the four gospels without Jesus in the four gospels without Jesus in the four gospels without Jesus disappearing out into the wilderness. I disappearing out into the wilderness. I disappearing out into the wilderness. I mean, the disciples are like running mean, the disciples are like running mean, the disciples are like running search parties for him. I remember uh search parties for him. I remember uh search parties for him. I remember uh reading El Elton True Blood who was a reading El Elton True Blood who was a reading El Elton True Blood who was a Quaker philosopher. He's the chaplain of Quaker philosopher. He's the chaplain of Quaker philosopher. He's the chaplain of Stanford at one point. He wrote a couple Stanford at one point. He wrote a couple Stanford at one point. He wrote a couple of lovely books, one of my favorite of lovely books, one of my favorite of lovely books, one of my favorite books on community actually. And he has books on community actually. And he has books on community actually. And he has this great line on his autobiography this great line on his autobiography this great line on his autobiography where he says the more and it's male where he says the more and it's male where he says the more and it's male ccentric language, but the more uh ccentric language, but the more uh ccentric language, but the more uh public a man is, the more he must learn public a man is, the more he must learn public a man is, the more he must learn to hide.

to hide. to hide. And all pastors, male, female, are And all pastors, male, female, are And all pastors, male, female, are public at some role. And so you have to public at some role. And so you have to public at some role. And so you have to learn to hide as Jesus did. um you know, learn to hide as Jesus did. um you know, learn to hide as Jesus did. um you know, hence his go into the closet, close the hence his go into the closet, close the hence his go into the closet, close the door. The first thing Jesus says about door. The first thing Jesus says about door. The first thing Jesus says about prayer has nothing to do with what to prayer has nothing to do with what to prayer has nothing to do with what to pray, but where to pray in secret, in pray, but where to pray in secret, in pray, but where to pray in secret, in hiding. The other thing is, you know, hiding. The other thing is, you know, hiding. The other thing is, you know, Jesus had this inner circle of Peter, Jesus had this inner circle of Peter, Jesus had this inner circle of Peter, James, and John that were his friends James, and John that were his friends James, and John that were his friends where he would go to the mount of where he would go to the mount of where he would go to the mount of transfiguration. He'd go to the Garden transfiguration. He'd go to the Garden transfiguration. He'd go to the Garden of Gethsemane and he would process of Gethsemane and he would process of Gethsemane and he would process emotionally his life, the highs like the emotionally his life, the highs like the emotionally his life, the highs like the transfiguration and the lows like transfiguration and the lows like transfiguration and the lows like Gethsemane with these two or three Gethsemane with these two or three Gethsemane with these two or three friends. And then the third practice I friends. And then the third practice I friends. And then the third practice I see or kind of archetype of his life is see or kind of archetype of his life is see or kind of archetype of his life is he would regularly do something amazing he would regularly do something amazing he would regularly do something amazing and then try to keep it a secret. and then try to keep it a secret. and then try to keep it a secret. >> And um and I think that's you know and >> And um and I think that's you know and >> And um and I think that's you know and there's like a christoologgical thing there's like a christoologgical thing there's like a christoologgical thing happening there where it's like hey you happening there where it's like hey you happening there where it's like hey you know if word gets out that Jesus really know if word gets out that Jesus really know if word gets out that Jesus really is the Messiah they'll do what they did is the Messiah they'll do what they did is the Messiah they'll do what they did to him. They'll kill him and he has work to him. They'll kill him and he has work to him. They'll kill him and he has work to do before he can get killed. So to do before he can get killed. So to do before he can get killed. So there's like a strategic thing but I there's like a strategic thing but I there's like a strategic thing but I think there's a spirituality there. I I think there's a spirituality there. I I think there's a spirituality there. I I think he's stewarding. If you're going think he's stewarding. If you're going think he's stewarding. If you're going to stand up in front of thousands upon to stand up in front of thousands upon to stand up in front of thousands upon thousands of people as a new Moses and thousands of people as a new Moses and thousands of people as a new Moses and make mana come essentially from heaven, make mana come essentially from heaven, make mana come essentially from heaven, then how are you going to steward that then how are you going to steward that then how are you going to steward that kind of glory and power? Well, you're kind of glory and power? Well, you're kind of glory and power? Well, you're going to go maybe serve and heal going to go maybe serve and heal going to go maybe serve and heal somebody in secret and say, "Don't tell somebody in secret and say, "Don't tell somebody in secret and say, "Don't tell anybody about this. Let's keep this anybody about this. Let's keep this anybody about this. Let's keep this between us." So, I think for pastors in between us." So, I think for pastors in between us." So, I think for pastors in particular, particular, particular, one of the most egregious dangers is our one of the most egregious dangers is our one of the most egregious dangers is our our life with God becomes sermonized,

our life with God becomes sermonized, our life with God becomes sermonized, public, put on Instagram. You have to public, put on Instagram. You have to public, put on Instagram. You have to have a life with God, a life with other have a life with God, a life with other have a life with God, a life with other people, and a life of service that people, and a life of service that people, and a life of service that nobody knows about. nobody knows about. nobody knows about. >> Like a a healthy kind of secrecy. >> Like a a healthy kind of secrecy. >> Like a a healthy kind of secrecy. There's a toxic secrecy that we're all There's a toxic secrecy that we're all There's a toxic secrecy that we're all familiar with. And then there's a familiar with. And then there's a familiar with. And then there's a healthy hiddenness. I'm talking about a healthy hiddenness. I'm talking about a healthy hiddenness. I'm talking about a healthy hiddenness. your, you know, a healthy hiddenness. your, you know, a healthy hiddenness. your, you know, a friend of mine uh makes a point to serve friend of mine uh makes a point to serve friend of mine uh makes a point to serve at least once a month in a poverty at least once a month in a poverty at least once a month in a poverty relation related initiative in his city relation related initiative in his city relation related initiative in his city that nobody knows about, nobody knows he that nobody knows about, nobody knows he that nobody knows about, nobody knows he does, and is not one of the ministries does, and is not one of the ministries does, and is not one of the ministries their church is involved in. And that's their church is involved in. And that's their church is involved in. And that's his way of getting at this principle. his way of getting at this principle. his way of getting at this principle. He's just going to go volunteer for this He's just going to go volunteer for this He's just going to go volunteer for this houseless ministry. The church doesn't houseless ministry. The church doesn't houseless ministry. The church doesn't know about it. Church doesn't do it. know about it. Church doesn't do it. know about it. Church doesn't do it. He's not bolster. He's not there with 40 He's not bolster. He's not there with 40 He's not bolster. He's not there with 40 other volunteers from the church. He's other volunteers from the church. He's other volunteers from the church. He's just there as a Christian. And I think just there as a Christian. And I think just there as a Christian. And I think that's the right ethos there, you know. that's the right ethos there, you know. that's the right ethos there, you know. So, So, So, >> I don't know, Carrie. I think it's just >> I don't know, Carrie. I think it's just >> I don't know, Carrie. I think it's just about some of it's just about finding about some of it's just about finding about some of it's just about finding time and space with God and with other time and space with God and with other time and space with God and with other people. I think that's why people avoid people. I think that's why people avoid people. I think that's why people avoid solitude solitude solitude >> because they're just terrified like my >> because they're just terrified like my >> because they're just terrified like my grief's going to come up and then you grief's going to come up and then you grief's going to come up and then you just end up throwing your trash in the just end up throwing your trash in the just end up throwing your trash in the basement. Be like, "Oh, I'm not going basement. Be like, "Oh, I'm not going basement. Be like, "Oh, I'm not going down there." And then it's just coming down there." And then it's just coming down there." And then it's just coming up through the vents. What a powerful up through the vents. What a powerful up through the vents. What a powerful moment.

moment. moment. >> I threw my trash in the basement till I >> I threw my trash in the basement till I >> I threw my trash in the basement till I was 41. Not a good strategy. I burned was 41. Not a good strategy. I burned was 41. Not a good strategy. I burned out. I didn't declare a finish line, so out. I didn't declare a finish line, so out. I didn't declare a finish line, so my body did. my body did. my body did. >> Uh, Father Ron, thank you, John Mark. >> Uh, Father Ron, thank you, John Mark. >> Uh, Father Ron, thank you, John Mark. Disillusionment is a blessing. I have Disillusionment is a blessing. I have Disillusionment is a blessing. I have quoted that. That was a new thought for quoted that. That was a new thought for quoted that. That was a new thought for me. Disillusionment is a good thing me. Disillusionment is a good thing me. Disillusionment is a good thing because you're a lot of disillusioned because you're a lot of disillusioned because you're a lot of disillusioned leaders are listening. Can you just leaders are listening. Can you just leaders are listening. Can you just explain why that is such a gift? >> Disolution. Well, let me just talk back >> Disolution. Well, let me just talk back on with John Mark. First of all, John on with John Mark. First of all, John on with John Mark. First of all, John Mark, I always find it humorous in Mark, I always find it humorous in Mark, I always find it humorous in scripture when Jesus heals say a blind scripture when Jesus heals say a blind scripture when Jesus heals say a blind person or said try not to tell anybody. person or said try not to tell anybody. person or said try not to tell anybody. It's got to be kind of hard [laughter] It's got to be kind of hard [laughter] It's got to be kind of hard [laughter] to to to >> and they almost always disobey him flat >> and they almost always disobey him flat >> and they almost always disobey him flat out. Yeah. out. Yeah. out. Yeah. >> Yeah. But the other thing about Jesus >> Yeah. But the other thing about Jesus >> Yeah. But the other thing about Jesus sneaking away, notice when he sneaks sneaking away, notice when he sneaks sneaking away, notice when he sneaks away, often times it's right after a big away, often times it's right after a big away, often times it's right after a big moment. He's fed the 5,000. You know, moment. He's fed the 5,000. You know, moment. He's fed the 5,000. You know, it's just we're going to make you king. it's just we're going to make you king. it's just we're going to make you king. That's when he sneaks off. Um, you know, That's when he sneaks off. Um, you know, That's when he sneaks off. Um, you know, I once heard an an interview with I once heard an an interview with I once heard an an interview with Jennice Joplain, the rock star, who Jennice Joplain, the rock star, who Jennice Joplain, the rock star, who sadly died at 27, you know, and somebody sadly died at 27, you know, and somebody sadly died at 27, you know, and somebody said to her, "What's it like being a said to her, "What's it like being a said to her, "What's it like being a rock star? You go out on stage." And she rock star? You go out on stage." And she rock star? You go out on stage." And she said, "It's really awful." Said, "Have said, "It's really awful." Said, "Have said, "It's really awful." Said, "Have you any idea what it's like?" Said, "You you any idea what it's like?" Said, "You you any idea what it's like?" Said, "You go out and you make love to 15,000 go out and you make love to 15,000 go out and you make love to 15,000 people and you go home and try to sleep.

people and you go home and try to sleep. people and you go home and try to sleep. That's an interesting thing." As That's an interesting thing." As That's an interesting thing." As minister, you know, you're you're going minister, you know, you're you're going minister, you know, you're you're going on your Sunday thinking you're you're on your Sunday thinking you're you're on your Sunday thinking you're you're making love to people. said like how do making love to people. said like how do making love to people. said like how do you handle that? Um you know how do you you handle that? Um you know how do you you handle that? Um you know how do you process that? You know again this thing process that? You know again this thing process that? You know again this thing as working with ministers you know as working with ministers you know as working with ministers you know always remember in the seminary we're always remember in the seminary we're always remember in the seminary we're taught how to do ministry we are never taught how to do ministry we are never taught how to do ministry we are never taught what it does to us you know um taught what it does to us you know um taught what it does to us you know um and you know a lot of you know big and you know a lot of you know big and you know a lot of you know big preachers or priests and stuff they fall preachers or priests and stuff they fall preachers or priests and stuff they fall you know from from sex or something else you know from from sex or something else you know from from sex or something else that's not a surprise you know it's just that's not a surprise you know it's just that's not a surprise you know it's just kind of all that stroking and how do you kind of all that stroking and how do you kind of all that stroking and how do you come down from that or a lot of work come down from that or a lot of work come down from that or a lot of work with depression with depression with depression and in anger because, you know, we and in anger because, you know, we and in anger because, you know, we aren't properly honored. Um aren't properly honored. Um aren't properly honored. Um [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] because like I said, we're experiencing because like I said, we're experiencing because like I said, we're experiencing rejection and affirmation, as you said, rejection and affirmation, as you said, rejection and affirmation, as you said, John Mark, more than is needed on either John Mark, more than is needed on either John Mark, more than is needed on either side. Don't exaggerate. We're not that side. Don't exaggerate. We're not that side. Don't exaggerate. We're not that bad and we're not that good. Um but we bad and we're not that good. Um but we bad and we're not that good. Um but we can't protect ourselves when those can't protect ourselves when those can't protect ourselves when those projections onto us. Like Chennis Chop projections onto us. Like Chennis Chop projections onto us. Like Chennis Chop says, "How do you sleep when you've just says, "How do you sleep when you've just says, "How do you sleep when you've just made love to 15,000 people?" You know, made love to 15,000 people?" You know, made love to 15,000 people?" You know, >> how do you return to normal life as a >> how do you return to normal life as a >> how do you return to normal life as a father and stuff when you've just father and stuff when you've just father and stuff when you've just preached to a big congregation? They've preached to a big congregation? They've preached to a big congregation? They've said you're wonderful, you know. Uh huh. Those are good reflections.

huh. Those are good reflections. Anything else on that before we leave Anything else on that before we leave Anything else on that before we leave it? Well, I think you know with your Well, I think you know with your audience with church leaders that's an audience with church leaders that's an audience with church leaders that's an important thing. I think that we should important thing. I think that we should important thing. I think that we should talk about that and sometimes almost talk about that and sometimes almost talk about that and sometimes almost have like AA groups. have like AA groups. have like AA groups. This is you know you know This is you know you know This is you know you know >> I'm John and I'm a minister in and I'm >> I'm John and I'm a minister in and I'm >> I'm John and I'm a minister in and I'm depressed you know you know depressed you know you know depressed you know you know >> can I can I tell Carrie can I tell a >> can I can I tell Carrie can I tell a >> can I can I tell Carrie can I tell a fatherhouser story? you can edit this fatherhouser story? you can edit this fatherhouser story? you can edit this out cuz the point here is to interview out cuz the point here is to interview out cuz the point here is to interview Father Ron, but this is all going to be Father Ron, but this is all going to be Father Ron, but this is all going to be a leadup to a word of advice he gave me. a leadup to a word of advice he gave me. a leadup to a word of advice he gave me. So during co So during co So during co um this was my first introduction to um this was my first introduction to um this was my first introduction to Father Roheiser personally. I had just Father Roheiser personally. I had just Father Roheiser personally. I had just read all of his books and was obsessed. read all of his books and was obsessed. read all of his books and was obsessed. CO broke out and this would have been I CO broke out and this would have been I CO broke out and this would have been I think like July of 2020. So I'm in think like July of 2020. So I'm in think like July of 2020. So I'm in Portland, Oregon. I'm in urban Portland, Portland, Oregon. I'm in urban Portland, Portland, Oregon. I'm in urban Portland, Oregon. Our church is three blocks from Oregon. Our church is three blocks from Oregon. Our church is three blocks from the riots if you likely saw that. you the riots if you likely saw that. you the riots if you likely saw that. you know, 103 nights straight. It's the most know, 103 nights straight. It's the most know, 103 nights straight. It's the most brutal. It is the low point, the brutal. It is the low point, the brutal. It is the low point, the singular low point of my ministry and singular low point of my ministry and singular low point of my ministry and brutal time in my life. And I get brutal time in my life. And I get brutal time in my life. And I get invited to um there was about 3 months invited to um there was about 3 months invited to um there was about 3 months there where an online pastor's there where an online pastor's there where an online pastor's conference sounded like a good idea. And conference sounded like a good idea. And conference sounded like a good idea. And I got invited to an online pastor's I got invited to an online pastor's I got invited to an online pastor's conference to interview Father Rohiser conference to interview Father Rohiser conference to interview Father Rohiser and I jumped at the chance. And I did and I jumped at the chance. And I did and I jumped at the chance. And I did not even try to curate interview not even try to curate interview not even try to curate interview questions for the wider audience. I questions for the wider audience. I questions for the wider audience. I could care who I could care less. I just

could care who I could care less. I just could care who I could care less. I just made a list of like my questions for made a list of like my questions for made a list of like my questions for Father Rollheiser. And um I had just Father Rollheiser. And um I had just Father Rollheiser. And um I had just been introduced to uh the idea of been introduced to uh the idea of been introduced to uh the idea of transference from the world of transference from the world of transference from the world of psychology. I was familiar with psychology. I was familiar with psychology. I was familiar with projection that people kind of attribute projection that people kind of attribute projection that people kind of attribute to you their own stuff that they have to you their own stuff that they have to you their own stuff that they have shame over. But transference was like a shame over. But transference was like a shame over. But transference was like a new concept to me that you know you are new concept to me that you know you are new concept to me that you know you are uh person has a negative negative uh person has a negative negative uh person has a negative negative experience in their past and they experience in their past and they experience in their past and they transfer that emotional recognition over transfer that emotional recognition over transfer that emotional recognition over onto you. And as a pastor, you know, onto you. And as a pastor, you know, onto you. And as a pastor, you know, anybody that's ever been wounded by a anybody that's ever been wounded by a anybody that's ever been wounded by a man in my case, by a pastor, by an man in my case, by a pastor, by an man in my case, by a pastor, by an authority figure, by a Christian, like authority figure, by a Christian, like authority figure, by a Christian, like you're a standin for all of that. And so you're a standin for all of that. And so you're a standin for all of that. And so people are emotionally experiencing people are emotionally experiencing people are emotionally experiencing somebody from 20 years ago, not you. And somebody from 20 years ago, not you. And somebody from 20 years ago, not you. And then you get attacked and it's deeply then you get attacked and it's deeply then you get attacked and it's deeply deeply painful. And so um I remember deeply painful. And so um I remember deeply painful. And so um I remember that's the first time I I asked you how that's the first time I I asked you how that's the first time I I asked you how do you are you familiar with this? And do you are you familiar with this? And do you are you familiar with this? And you said oh yes. You said transference you said oh yes. You said transference you said oh yes. You said transference is the number one thing they do not is the number one thing they do not is the number one thing they do not teach in any seminaries Catholic or teach in any seminaries Catholic or teach in any seminaries Catholic or Protestant and it should be one of the Protestant and it should be one of the Protestant and it should be one of the first things they teach you. Then you first things they teach you. Then you first things they teach you. Then you said your killer line seminary prepares said your killer line seminary prepares said your killer line seminary prepares you to do ministry but it doesn't you to do ministry but it doesn't you to do ministry but it doesn't prepare you for what ministry will do to prepare you for what ministry will do to prepare you for what ministry will do to you.

you. you. >> And I'm like just and I'm just like >> And I'm like just and I'm just like >> And I'm like just and I'm just like taking just like hair was I'm just like taking just like hair was I'm just like taking just like hair was I'm just like typing it down. typing it down. typing it down. >> But but then I I was my question my >> But but then I I was my question my >> But but then I I was my question my follow-up question to you was okay so follow-up question to you was okay so follow-up question to you was okay so how do I deal I'm experiencing how do I deal I'm experiencing how do I deal I'm experiencing transference. I have this psychological transference. I have this psychological transference. I have this psychological category in my mind. Okay this person's category in my mind. Okay this person's category in my mind. Okay this person's saying this nasty stuff about me but saying this nasty stuff about me but saying this nasty stuff about me but actually it's about their pain and actually it's about their pain and actually it's about their pain and trauma. But I still like I I don't know trauma. But I still like I I don't know trauma. But I still like I I don't know what to do with it. that I go to prayer what to do with it. that I go to prayer what to do with it. that I go to prayer with that and all I'm doing is just like with that and all I'm doing is just like with that and all I'm doing is just like obsessing over my hurt and my wound and obsessing over my hurt and my wound and obsessing over my hurt and my wound and and you gave [laughter] the the best and you gave [laughter] the the best and you gave [laughter] the the best answer that was so Catholic and not answer that was so Catholic and not answer that was so Catholic and not evangelical. I was just laughing and you evangelical. I was just laughing and you evangelical. I was just laughing and you said, "Well, well, yes, pray, but you said, "Well, well, yes, pray, but you said, "Well, well, yes, pray, but you said, but do you drink alcohol?" And you said, but do you drink alcohol?" And you said, but do you drink alcohol?" And you were just quiet and I'm on [laughter] were just quiet and I'm on [laughter] were just quiet and I'm on [laughter] this like online pastor's conference and this like online pastor's conference and this like online pastor's conference and I'm like, "Who knows who's listening?" I'm like, "Who knows who's listening?" I'm like, "Who knows who's listening?" I'm like, "Uh, yes, in moderation a I'm like, "Uh, yes, in moderation a I'm like, "Uh, yes, in moderation a little bit." And and you said, "Well, little bit." And and you said, "Well, little bit." And and you said, "Well, well," you gave the best answer. You well," you gave the best answer. You well," you gave the best answer. You said, "Well, here's what I would do. I said, "Well, here's what I would do. I said, "Well, here's what I would do. I would I would get a bottle of something would I would get a bottle of something would I would get a bottle of something good and I would find a fire pit good and I would find a fire pit good and I would find a fire pit somewhere and I'd get two or three of somewhere and I'd get two or three of somewhere and I'd get two or three of your colleagues together and I would your colleagues together and I would your colleagues together and I would just sit around the fire and I would just sit around the fire and I would just sit around the fire and I would commiserate commiserate commiserate and you said because you know what we and you said because you know what we and you said because you know what we have to offload that pain somewhere and have to offload that pain somewhere and have to offload that pain somewhere and we cannot offload it on our church or on we cannot offload it on our church or on we cannot offload it on our church or on the internet or on a blo and said but the internet or on a blo and said but the internet or on a blo and said but you have to offload it somewhere. So you have to offload it somewhere. So you have to offload it somewhere. So yes, pray and get a few guys together yes, pray and get a few guys together yes, pray and get a few guys together and just offload your pain. So that was and just offload your pain. So that was and just offload your pain. So that was that was such a like nonspiritual answer that was such a like nonspiritual answer that was such a like nonspiritual answer at some level, but it actually is deeply at some level, but it actually is deeply at some level, but it actually is deeply spiritual. And so right after that, our

spiritual. And so right after that, our spiritual. And so right after that, our elders, and this was, you know, was I I elders, and this was, you know, was I I elders, and this was, you know, was I I can say this in hindsight, it was co, can say this in hindsight, it was co, can say this in hindsight, it was co, but you know, it was really strict. but you know, it was really strict. but you know, it was really strict. We're in Portland, Oregon. One of our We're in Portland, Oregon. One of our We're in Portland, Oregon. One of our elders was a doctor. He'd literally elders was a doctor. He'd literally elders was a doctor. He'd literally caring inerson elders meetings. He'd caring inerson elders meetings. He'd caring inerson elders meetings. He'd carry a 10-ft stick into the room and carry a 10-ft stick into the room and carry a 10-ft stick into the room and make sure we were all 10 feet apart. you make sure we were all 10 feet apart. you make sure we were all 10 feet apart. you know, we were but we would all sit on my know, we were but we would all sit on my know, we were but we would all sit on my back deck. I had this huge fire pit. back deck. I had this huge fire pit. back deck. I had this huge fire pit. We'd come as couples. We'd all bring We'd come as couples. We'd all bring We'd come as couples. We'd all bring food and bottles of wine and once a food and bottles of wine and once a food and bottles of wine and once a month we do we called it our month we do we called it our month we do we called it our transference dinner. And the elders of transference dinner. And the elders of transference dinner. And the elders of Bridgetown are still doing this and we Bridgetown are still doing this and we Bridgetown are still doing this and we just sit around and we'd have great just sit around and we'd have great just sit around and we'd have great food, great wine, and we'd commiserate food, great wine, and we'd commiserate food, great wine, and we'd commiserate and whoever had the hardest week, we and whoever had the hardest week, we and whoever had the hardest week, we would go around and do an affirmation would go around and do an affirmation would go around and do an affirmation circle for them. It was the low point of circle for them. It was the low point of circle for them. It was the low point of my ministry. It was the best season of my ministry. It was the best season of my ministry. It was the best season of eldership I've ever been a part of in 25 eldership I've ever been a part of in 25 eldership I've ever been a part of in 25 years of church. And so that's my years of church. And so that's my years of church. And so that's my vulnerable hazard story. You can edit vulnerable hazard story. You can edit vulnerable hazard story. You can edit that whole thing out. But that whole thing out. But that whole thing out. But >> I just think to this day like that is >> I just think to this day like that is >> I just think to this day like that is now wo transference dinners are like now now wo transference dinners are like now now wo transference dinners are like now a part of my leadership model. And it's a part of my leadership model. And it's a part of my leadership model. And it's not griping. It's processing pain with not griping. It's processing pain with not griping. It's processing pain with people together so that we can stay people together so that we can stay people together so that we can stay present in love.

present in love. present in love. >> Yeah. We know we have a lot to learn >> Yeah. We know we have a lot to learn >> Yeah. We know we have a lot to learn from AA, you know, like from AA, you know, like from AA, you know, like >> not just but but just basically we need >> not just but but just basically we need >> not just but but just basically we need community to process this stuff, community to process this stuff, community to process this stuff, >> you know, where we can just be honest >> you know, where we can just be honest >> you know, where we can just be honest and you know and you know and you know >> um you know you you can't go on a Sunday >> um you know you you can't go on a Sunday >> um you know you you can't go on a Sunday sermon and say I want to kill somebody sermon and say I want to kill somebody sermon and say I want to kill somebody but you can sit sitting around a but you can sit sitting around a but you can sit sitting around a fireplace with the glass said I just fireplace with the glass said I just fireplace with the glass said I just want to kill you know I want to it's want to kill you know I want to it's want to kill you know I want to it's going to be a mass shooting here and I'm going to be a mass shooting here and I'm going to be a mass shooting here and I'm going to be the shooter you know. Um, going to be the shooter you know. Um, going to be the shooter you know. Um, see, so that's where you have to process see, so that's where you have to process see, so that's where you have to process that. So you that. So you that. So you >> Yeah. And I feel like if people don't >> Yeah. And I feel like if people don't >> Yeah. And I feel like if people don't process it in prayer and in healthy process it in prayer and in healthy process it in prayer and in healthy places like that, it leaks out through places like that, it leaks out through places like that, it leaks out through preaching. It leaks out passive preaching. It leaks out passive preaching. It leaks out passive aggressively through leadership. I mean, aggressively through leadership. I mean, aggressively through leadership. I mean, just it it it still comes out. It just just it it it still comes out. It just just it it it still comes out. It just comes out toxically in the wrong place comes out toxically in the wrong place comes out toxically in the wrong place >> rather than healthfully in a good place. >> I do have a few more things I' I'd like >> I do have a few more things I' I'd like to tackle. I'm sure you do too, John to tackle. I'm sure you do too, John to tackle. I'm sure you do too, John Mark. But that disillusionment is a Mark. But that disillusionment is a Mark. But that disillusionment is a blessing.

blessing. blessing. >> Really, I never thought about it because >> Really, I never thought about it because >> Really, I never thought about it because disillusionment was only a bad word. disillusionment was only a bad word. disillusionment was only a bad word. Like I'm disillusioned, jaded, cynical. Like I'm disillusioned, jaded, cynical. Like I'm disillusioned, jaded, cynical. You totally reframe it in insane for the You totally reframe it in insane for the You totally reframe it in insane for the light. And I would just love to hear how light. And I would just love to hear how light. And I would just love to hear how you think about disillusionment. you think about disillusionment. you think about disillusionment. >> Well, you know, the word itself sounds >> Well, you know, the word itself sounds >> Well, you know, the word itself sounds negative, it's positive. say disillusion negative, it's positive. say disillusion negative, it's positive. say disillusion means the dispelling of an illusion means the dispelling of an illusion means the dispelling of an illusion >> you know >> you know >> you know >> it was never real in the first place >> it was never real in the first place >> it was never real in the first place >> you were living in an illusion >> you were living in an illusion >> you were living in an illusion >> yeah yeah so that basically you know in >> yeah yeah so that basically you know in >> yeah yeah so that basically you know in the example I use for instance the the example I use for instance the the example I use for instance the difference between see people can go on difference between see people can go on difference between see people can go on a honeymoon with most anybody and just a honeymoon with most anybody and just a honeymoon with most anybody and just I'm wildly in love and so on I will say I'm wildly in love and so on I will say I'm wildly in love and so on I will say I'm in love with this person or in love I'm in love with this person or in love I'm in love with this person or in love with being in love or the experience you with being in love or the experience you with being in love or the experience you know when disillusionment sets in they know when disillusionment sets in they know when disillusionment sets in they realize you know I wasn't in love with realize you know I wasn't in love with realize you know I wasn't in love with this person I was in love with myself, this person I was in love with myself, this person I was in love with myself, you know. Um, see, so it's it's painful, you know. Um, see, so it's it's painful, you know. Um, see, so it's it's painful, but it's positive. but it's positive. but it's positive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's the dis the word itself. >> You know, it's the dis the word itself. >> You know, it's the dis the word itself. I was say it's it's a positive word. The I was say it's it's a positive word. The I was say it's it's a positive word. The dispelling of an illusion, dispelling of an illusion, dispelling of an illusion, >> right? So, I'm not my mom's favorite >> right? So, I'm not my mom's favorite >> right? So, I'm not my mom's favorite child.

child. child. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> that was an illusion. Okay, I can deal >> that was an illusion. Okay, I can deal >> that was an illusion. Okay, I can deal with it now. Right. Everything to uh with it now. Right. Everything to uh with it now. Right. Everything to uh Yeah, they're criticizing me. What you Yeah, they're criticizing me. What you Yeah, they're criticizing me. What you need to do is what John Mark said. get need to do is what John Mark said. get need to do is what John Mark said. get your buddies around and your family with your buddies around and your family with your buddies around and your family with with a with some wine and talk about and with a with some wine and talk about and with a with some wine and talk about and my mother loved my sister better than my mother loved my sister better than my mother loved my sister better than me. me. me. That's a form of grieving. You know, That's a form of grieving. You know, That's a form of grieving. You know, >> you're expressing it. You're not hiding >> you're expressing it. You're not hiding >> you're expressing it. You're not hiding it. You're not um um and sooner or later it. You're not um um and sooner or later it. You're not um um and sooner or later it'll lighten up and you'll think that it'll lighten up and you'll think that it'll lighten up and you'll think that was okay. You know, um was okay. You know, um was okay. You know, um >> I give you another line you can edit >> I give you another line you can edit >> I give you another line you can edit out. out. out. >> Yeah. Go ahead. See, Jesus said, "Some >> Yeah. Go ahead. See, Jesus said, "Some >> Yeah. Go ahead. See, Jesus said, "Some demons are only cast out by prayer and demons are only cast out by prayer and demons are only cast out by prayer and genonic." Okay, genonic." Okay, genonic." Okay, [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> since this is Carrie's podcast, I get to >> since this is Carrie's podcast, I get to >> since this is Carrie's podcast, I get to just laugh at that. just laugh at that. just laugh at that. >> Yeah, this is John Mark gets to go home. >> Yeah, this is John Mark gets to go home. >> Yeah, this is John Mark gets to go home. >> I have nothing. >> I have nothing. >> I have nothing. >> I think I think my audience is broad >> I think I think my audience is broad >> I think I think my audience is broad [laughter] enough that they can have a [laughter] enough that they can have a [laughter] enough that they can have a good laugh at that. Yeah. No, it's good laugh at that. Yeah. No, it's good laugh at that. Yeah. No, it's tough. I mean, tough. I mean, tough. I mean, >> it's really difficult. And I think that >> it's really difficult. And I think that >> it's really difficult. And I think that community that friends I mean there are community that friends I mean there are community that friends I mean there are psalms that say uh and I haven't got it psalms that say uh and I haven't got it psalms that say uh and I haven't got it chapter in verse but wine is there for chapter in verse but wine is there for chapter in verse but wine is there for uh you know to cure some of the miseries uh you know to cure some of the miseries uh you know to cure some of the miseries of life etc etc. And I'm I'm with John of life etc etc. And I'm I'm with John of life etc etc. And I'm I'm with John Mark in moderation but uh you know we Mark in moderation but uh you know we Mark in moderation but uh you know we have we have different opinions. I hope have we have different opinions. I hope have we have different opinions. I hope we respect each other enough on this we respect each other enough on this we respect each other enough on this platform to be able to embrace a good platform to be able to embrace a good platform to be able to embrace a good laugh.

laugh. laugh. >> And Sandy K you mentioned the Psalms. >> And Sandy K you mentioned the Psalms. >> And Sandy K you mentioned the Psalms. You know what the reason the Psalms said You know what the reason the Psalms said You know what the reason the Psalms said such a good form of prayer? It's a such a good form of prayer? It's a such a good form of prayer? It's a keyboard that plays all the psalms. You keyboard that plays all the psalms. You keyboard that plays all the psalms. You know, you're praising God, sometimes know, you're praising God, sometimes know, you're praising God, sometimes you're angry, sometimes you want to kill you're angry, sometimes you want to kill you're angry, sometimes you want to kill somebody, you know, the the psalms are somebody, you know, the the psalms are somebody, you know, the the psalms are honest. honest. honest. >> Sometimes you're practically an atheist, >> Sometimes you're practically an atheist, >> Sometimes you're practically an atheist, you know. you know. you know. >> Yeah. It's all there. >> Yeah. It's all there. >> Yeah. It's all there. >> Psalm 109, I think that's a leader's >> Psalm 109, I think that's a leader's >> Psalm 109, I think that's a leader's psalm. psalm. psalm. >> Um, you know, that's where David is >> Um, you know, that's where David is >> Um, you know, that's where David is hiding out. He's persecuted, beaten down hiding out. He's persecuted, beaten down hiding out. He's persecuted, beaten down by Saul, and he's just like, "Here's by Saul, and he's just like, "Here's by Saul, and he's just like, "Here's what I hope happens to my enemy." what I hope happens to my enemy." what I hope happens to my enemy." [laughter] And he just lets loose and [laughter] And he just lets loose and [laughter] And he just lets loose and kill his children and his wife and this. kill his children and his wife and this. kill his children and his wife and this. And I'm like, I remember I've read the And I'm like, I remember I've read the And I'm like, I remember I've read the psalm dozens dozens of times. But then I psalm dozens dozens of times. But then I psalm dozens dozens of times. But then I really read it and I'm like, is this the really read it and I'm like, is this the really read it and I'm like, is this the Bible? What am I reading? When you Bible? What am I reading? When you Bible? What am I reading? When you actually read it and it's like, actually read it and it's like, actually read it and it's like, >> oh, he's venting. And you know what what >> oh, he's venting. And you know what what >> oh, he's venting. And you know what what I learned in that season is is if you I learned in that season is is if you I learned in that season is is if you tell if you turn tell if you turn tell if you turn >> to God, you won't turn on them. >> to God, you won't turn on them. >> to God, you won't turn on them. Otherwise, you're going to turn on them Otherwise, you're going to turn on them Otherwise, you're going to turn on them >> because that's what's going to happen.

>> because that's what's going to happen. >> because that's what's going to happen. If you just bottle it up, it's like I'm If you just bottle it up, it's like I'm If you just bottle it up, it's like I'm going to come out at you passive going to come out at you passive going to come out at you passive aggressive or whatever. aggressive or whatever. aggressive or whatever. >> Yeah. I'm doing >> Yeah. I'm doing >> Yeah. I'm doing >> Dark Knight of the Soul. Yeah. >> Dark Knight of the Soul. Yeah. >> Dark Knight of the Soul. Yeah. >> Go ahead, John Mark. >> Go ahead, John Mark. >> Go ahead, John Mark. >> I was going to say, Carrie, I'm doing uh >> I was going to say, Carrie, I'm doing uh >> I was going to say, Carrie, I'm doing uh some work right now um for a project on some work right now um for a project on some work right now um for a project on kind of the biblical motif of the kind of the biblical motif of the kind of the biblical motif of the wilderness. And I just I'm just I was wilderness. And I just I'm just I was wilderness. And I just I'm just I was doing like literally just bibliography doing like literally just bibliography doing like literally just bibliography stuff just like every scripture stuff just like every scripture stuff just like every scripture reference I can find. And I was reference I can find. And I was reference I can find. And I was absolutely struck. I'd never seen this absolutely struck. I'd never seen this absolutely struck. I'd never seen this before where the author of Exodus and before where the author of Exodus and before where the author of Exodus and Numbers has this parallel where the Numbers has this parallel where the Numbers has this parallel where the grumbling line from the Israelites is grumbling line from the Israelites is grumbling line from the Israelites is almost identical to Moses's prayer to almost identical to Moses's prayer to almost identical to Moses's prayer to God, God, God, >> but one ends in, you know, death and >> but one ends in, you know, death and >> but one ends in, you know, death and destruction and the other makes Moses destruction and the other makes Moses destruction and the other makes Moses the friend of God. And I realized the the friend of God. And I realized the the friend of God. And I realized the difference was not the content of the difference was not the content of the difference was not the content of the grumbling, it was the object one. You grumbling, it was the object one. You grumbling, it was the object one. You know, the Israelites are grumbling to know, the Israelites are grumbling to know, the Israelites are grumbling to Moses. Moses is saying pretty much the Moses. Moses is saying pretty much the Moses. Moses is saying pretty much the same thing, but he's grumbling to God.

same thing, but he's grumbling to God. same thing, but he's grumbling to God. And that's the difference between, you And that's the difference between, you And that's the difference between, you know, complaint and lament. And I just know, complaint and lament. And I just know, complaint and lament. And I just realized one is like they're both living realized one is like they're both living realized one is like they're both living through pain and they are in the desert through pain and they are in the desert through pain and they are in the desert and they have no food or the food is the and they have no food or the food is the and they have no food or the food is the exact same thing every single day. But exact same thing every single day. But exact same thing every single day. But one is just griping about it to the one is just griping about it to the one is just griping about it to the internet and the other is processing it internet and the other is processing it internet and the other is processing it in prayer to God. It just feels like in prayer to God. It just feels like in prayer to God. It just feels like that's what you're calling us to is we that's what you're calling us to is we that's what you're calling us to is we have to process this and it's going to have to process this and it's going to have to process this and it's going to come out imperfectly with our humanness come out imperfectly with our humanness come out imperfectly with our humanness and our hurt and our wound and our and our hurt and our wound and our and our hurt and our wound and our overreaction. But does it come out in overreaction. But does it come out in overreaction. But does it come out in prayer with a few close friends where it prayer with a few close friends where it prayer with a few close friends where it can then get discharged from our body or can then get discharged from our body or can then get discharged from our body or does it leak out in toxic ways to the does it leak out in toxic ways to the does it leak out in toxic ways to the people we lead and serve? You know, people we lead and serve? You know, people we lead and serve? You know, >> John, >> John, >> John, >> what's in that? Yeah. >> what's in that? Yeah. >> what's in that? Yeah. >> I'd offer an image of that. It's like >> I'd offer an image of that. It's like >> I'd offer an image of that. It's like for instance, here you have kids. for instance, here you have kids. for instance, here you have kids. Suppose you have a 21-year-old. You're Suppose you have a 21-year-old. You're Suppose you have a 21-year-old. You're the you're the dad. Um and they're just the you're the dad. Um and they're just the you're the dad. Um and they're just frustrated with life. Don't you want frustrated with life. Don't you want frustrated with life. Don't you want them to come sit down with you say, them to come sit down with you say, them to come sit down with you say, "Dad, I want to kill somebody." You "Dad, I want to kill somebody." You "Dad, I want to kill somebody." You know, so that that's what most God know, so that that's what most God know, so that that's what most God that's healthy. You're going to the that's healthy. You're going to the that's healthy. You're going to the right place. You know, you don't want right place. You know, you don't want right place. You know, you don't want this kid to process that some other this kid to process that some other this kid to process that some other place, you know.

place, you know. place, you know. >> Yeah. Exactly. If we had fathers to turn >> Yeah. Exactly. If we had fathers to turn >> Yeah. Exactly. If we had fathers to turn to, mothers to turn to to have the to, mothers to turn to to have the to, mothers to turn to to have the conversation, it's going to be a conversation, it's going to be a conversation, it's going to be a different world. I was I was tempted to different world. I was I was tempted to different world. I was I was tempted to ask about Dark Knight of the Soul. I ask about Dark Knight of the Soul. I ask about Dark Knight of the Soul. I feel like we need to come back for round feel like we need to come back for round feel like we need to come back for round two to do Dark Knight of the Soul cuz two to do Dark Knight of the Soul cuz two to do Dark Knight of the Soul cuz that's probably not five minutes. But that's probably not five minutes. But that's probably not five minutes. But you've got a framework for spiritual you've got a framework for spiritual you've got a framework for spiritual maturity and for life toward the end of maturity and for life toward the end of maturity and for life toward the end of Insane for the Light that and you were Insane for the Light that and you were Insane for the Light that and you were hinting at it earlier. You were saying, hinting at it earlier. You were saying, hinting at it earlier. You were saying, "Am I in love or am I in love with being "Am I in love or am I in love with being "Am I in love or am I in love with being in love?" And you kind of walk through in love?" And you kind of walk through in love?" And you kind of walk through that framework and John Mark and I, you that framework and John Mark and I, you that framework and John Mark and I, you know, being Protestants, we've been know, being Protestants, we've been know, being Protestants, we've been married, how many years for you, John married, how many years for you, John married, how many years for you, John Mark, have you been married now? Mark, have you been married now? Mark, have you been married now? >> Uh, you know, we married really young. >> Uh, you know, we married really young. >> Uh, you know, we married really young. So, actually, uh, I don't know when this So, actually, uh, I don't know when this So, actually, uh, I don't know when this episode will come out, but, uh, in June episode will come out, but, uh, in June episode will come out, but, uh, in June is our 25th wedding anniversary. is our 25th wedding anniversary. is our 25th wedding anniversary. >> Hey, happy 25th. >> Hey, happy 25th. >> Hey, happy 25th. >> Tony and I literally earlier this week >> Tony and I literally earlier this week >> Tony and I literally earlier this week celebrated 36. So, celebrated 36. So, celebrated 36. So, >> we were married back in 1990. And >> we were married back in 1990. And >> we were married back in 1990. And >> well done. >> well done. >> well done. >> Thank you. And well done to you, too, >> Thank you. And well done to you, too, >> Thank you. And well done to you, too, sir. you know, it's not easy, but it's sir. you know, it's not easy, but it's sir. you know, it's not easy, but it's worth it. And I I I really found that worth it. And I I I really found that worth it. And I I I really found that helpful because I was trying to figure helpful because I was trying to figure helpful because I was trying to figure out where our marriage is. And you just out where our marriage is. And you just out where our marriage is. And you just such a, you know, as a celibate Roman such a, you know, as a celibate Roman such a, you know, as a celibate Roman Catholic priest Catholic priest Catholic priest >> kind of nailed the whole image very >> kind of nailed the whole image very >> kind of nailed the whole image very well. Can you walk us through that well. Can you walk us through that well. Can you walk us through that framework because I think it's about framework because I think it's about framework because I think it's about marriage, it's about faith, it's about marriage, it's about faith, it's about marriage, it's about faith, it's about life, it's about vocation, it's life, it's about vocation, it's life, it's about vocation, it's different phases of maturity and it kind different phases of maturity and it kind different phases of maturity and it kind of knits your trilogy together, I think.

of knits your trilogy together, I think. of knits your trilogy together, I think. And uh there was a metaphor that really And uh there was a metaphor that really And uh there was a metaphor that really really rang true and that was it just really rang true and that was it just really rang true and that was it just feels like home. I'm like oh that's feels like home. I'm like oh that's feels like home. I'm like oh that's where our marriage is at. She is home where our marriage is at. She is home where our marriage is at. She is home and but it takes a long time to get to and but it takes a long time to get to and but it takes a long time to get to home. So can you explain that framework? home. So can you explain that framework? home. So can you explain that framework? I just found it so clarifying. Father I just found it so clarifying. Father I just found it so clarifying. Father >> start with a simple image and I'll >> start with a simple image and I'll >> start with a simple image and I'll explain. For instance, a honeymoon is explain. For instance, a honeymoon is explain. For instance, a honeymoon is wonderful but you go home from a wonderful but you go home from a wonderful but you go home from a honeymoon. That's not home. Yeah. Okay. honeymoon. That's not home. Yeah. Okay. honeymoon. That's not home. Yeah. Okay. See, so for in and dark nights basically See, so for in and dark nights basically See, so for in and dark nights basically know they said God gives us periods of know they said God gives us periods of know they said God gives us periods of fervor, you know, in prayer, honeymoons fervor, you know, in prayer, honeymoons fervor, you know, in prayer, honeymoons and stuff and they're good. They should and stuff and they're good. They should and stuff and they're good. They should never be discouraged. So on um it it it never be discouraged. So on um it it it never be discouraged. So on um it it it it transformation happens through love. it transformation happens through love. it transformation happens through love. But then when you're in that there's a But then when you're in that there's a But then when you're in that there's a lot of illusion like is it are you in lot of illusion like is it are you in lot of illusion like is it are you in love with your wife? Are you in love love with your wife? Are you in love love with your wife? Are you in love with Jesus or just in love with praying? with Jesus or just in love with praying? with Jesus or just in love with praying? You know, see then um what happens is You know, see then um what happens is You know, see then um what happens is the disillusionment all of it lets go the disillusionment all of it lets go the disillusionment all of it lets go and initially that period is dry you and initially that period is dry you and initially that period is dry you know initially that periods you know know initially that periods you know know initially that periods you know you're you want the old romance back and you're you want the old romance back and you're you want the old romance back and so on but you stay with it and so on but you stay with it and so on but you stay with it and eventually it becomes ease you're home eventually it becomes ease you're home eventually it becomes ease you're home you know you know you know >> you're both married when you were on a >> you're both married when you were on a >> you're both married when you were on a honeymoon was wonderful you weren't home honeymoon was wonderful you weren't home honeymoon was wonderful you weren't home [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] after 25 or 37 years you're home you're after 25 or 37 years you're home you're after 25 or 37 years you're home you're comfortable, you know, you're um um comfortable, you know, you're um um comfortable, you know, you're um um you're easeful, you know. Um but notice you're easeful, you know. Um but notice you're easeful, you know. Um but notice you had to you went through fervor and

you had to you went through fervor and you had to you went through fervor and you went through disillusionment and you went through disillusionment and you went through disillusionment and then disillusionment, some dryness, you then disillusionment, some dryness, you then disillusionment, some dryness, you know, where your marriage doesn't seem know, where your marriage doesn't seem know, where your marriage doesn't seem very exciting and suddenly realized this very exciting and suddenly realized this very exciting and suddenly realized this is whole, you know, and it's also true is whole, you know, and it's also true is whole, you know, and it's also true for prayer and um religious fervor, you for prayer and um religious fervor, you for prayer and um religious fervor, you know, like you you you start with know, like you you you start with know, like you you you start with religious fervor. That's a bit of a religious fervor. That's a bit of a religious fervor. That's a bit of a honeymoon. you're not going to walk on honeymoon. you're not going to walk on honeymoon. you're not going to walk on water for the rest of your life, you water for the rest of your life, you water for the rest of your life, you know, and then at certain point some know, and then at certain point some know, and then at certain point some disillusionment can set in and then you disillusionment can set in and then you disillusionment can set in and then you stay with it and eventually you're home. stay with it and eventually you're home. stay with it and eventually you're home. When you're at a church now, you're at When you're at a church now, you're at When you're at a church now, you're at home, you're at ease, you know, um you home, you're at ease, you know, um you home, you're at ease, you know, um you know, and that's maturity, you know. But know, and that's maturity, you know. But know, and that's maturity, you know. But see that the disillusionment and see that the disillusionment and see that the disillusionment and dryness, that's the dark knight, you dryness, that's the dark knight, you dryness, that's the dark knight, you know. See, the dark knight pose itself know. See, the dark knight pose itself know. See, the dark knight pose itself to fervor, you know. uh on the honeymoon to fervor, you know. uh on the honeymoon to fervor, you know. uh on the honeymoon you are not on a dark night. you are not on a dark night. you are not on a dark night. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to and and you >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to and and you >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to and and you know the whole whole idea about being know the whole whole idea about being know the whole whole idea about being home to even if it feels a little dry home to even if it feels a little dry home to even if it feels a little dry sometimes John Mark dovetales so sometimes John Mark dovetales so sometimes John Mark dovetales so beautifully with the last conversation beautifully with the last conversation beautifully with the last conversation we had on this podcast where we were we had on this podcast where we were we had on this podcast where we were talking about the the drier seasons in talking about the the drier seasons in talking about the the drier seasons in prayer and what that looks like. It was prayer and what that looks like. It was prayer and what that looks like. It was so reassuring and helpful for me. But so reassuring and helpful for me. But so reassuring and helpful for me. But Father Ron, help me if I got this Father Ron, help me if I got this Father Ron, help me if I got this framing right. I'm going to give the the framing right. I'm going to give the the framing right. I'm going to give the the the two-minute version of it. I think the two-minute version of it. I think the two-minute version of it. I think you begin by saying, and I I don't have you begin by saying, and I I don't have you begin by saying, and I I don't have the labels for every era, but most the labels for every era, but most the labels for every era, but most people start out in love. We'll just people start out in love. We'll just people start out in love. We'll just talk about love, but it's true of faith.

talk about love, but it's true of faith. talk about love, but it's true of faith. I'm living for myself. I'm going to date I'm living for myself. I'm going to date I'm living for myself. I'm going to date a lot of people. I'm going to see if a lot of people. I'm going to see if a lot of people. I'm going to see if anybody's right for me. But it's sort of anybody's right for me. But it's sort of anybody's right for me. But it's sort of a self-interested. I'm seeing what I can a self-interested. I'm seeing what I can a self-interested. I'm seeing what I can get out of any relationship. And that get out of any relationship. And that get out of any relationship. And that includes faith. I'm shopping Buddhism, includes faith. I'm shopping Buddhism, includes faith. I'm shopping Buddhism, Christianity, Catholicism, Christianity, Catholicism, Christianity, Catholicism, Protestantism, whatever. And then all of Protestantism, whatever. And then all of Protestantism, whatever. And then all of a sudden, you're like, "Oo, I think this a sudden, you're like, "Oo, I think this a sudden, you're like, "Oo, I think this might be the one." And it's like, could might be the one." And it's like, could might be the one." And it's like, could this be the one? Is it Jesus? Is it is this be the one? Is it Jesus? Is it is this be the one? Is it Jesus? Is it is it her? What is it? And so you sort of it her? What is it? And so you sort of it her? What is it? And so you sort of fall in love and you're infatuated and fall in love and you're infatuated and fall in love and you're infatuated and you're talking all the time and there's you're talking all the time and there's you're talking all the time and there's never a minute where you're not thinking never a minute where you're not thinking never a minute where you're not thinking about her. Uh, and then you get married about her. Uh, and then you get married about her. Uh, and then you get married and you're really proud and this is the and you're really proud and this is the and you're really proud and this is the time where you want to show, I'm time where you want to show, I'm time where you want to show, I'm speaking as a guy, her off. Maybe you speaking as a guy, her off. Maybe you speaking as a guy, her off. Maybe you get a tattoo, right? Maybe if you're a get a tattoo, right? Maybe if you're a get a tattoo, right? Maybe if you're a Christian, you start wearing jewelry or Christian, you start wearing jewelry or Christian, you start wearing jewelry or you tell everybody about it and you want you tell everybody about it and you want you tell everybody about it and you want to take her everywhere and you're kind to take her everywhere and you're kind to take her everywhere and you're kind of infatuated. That's sort of the of infatuated. That's sort of the of infatuated. That's sort of the honeymoon. You're you're showing your honeymoon. You're you're showing your honeymoon. You're you're showing your your spouse. your spouse. your spouse. >> Take each other in the elevator, you >> Take each other in the elevator, you >> Take each other in the elevator, you know. know. know. >> Exactly. So, you're like head over heels >> Exactly. So, you're like head over heels >> Exactly. So, you're like head over heels and then you go home from the honeymoon and then you go home from the honeymoon and then you go home from the honeymoon and that's where disillusionment starts.

and that's where disillusionment starts. and that's where disillusionment starts. It's like, oh, you know, this is this It's like, oh, you know, this is this It's like, oh, you know, this is this isn't as good. You don't look that great isn't as good. You don't look that great isn't as good. You don't look that great today. You're irritating me. this is not today. You're irritating me. this is not today. You're irritating me. this is not how the fridge should be organized etc how the fridge should be organized etc how the fridge should be organized etc etc. you start to maybe question the etc. you start to maybe question the etc. you start to maybe question the beliefs you have, decon convert a little beliefs you have, decon convert a little beliefs you have, decon convert a little bit, rethink, and that's where there can bit, rethink, and that's where there can bit, rethink, and that's where there can be a fracture where where you deconvert be a fracture where where you deconvert be a fracture where where you deconvert where where you break up, where you where where you break up, where you where where you break up, where you separate, or you could go on to become separate, or you could go on to become separate, or you could go on to become business partners, as you know, a lot of business partners, as you know, a lot of business partners, as you know, a lot of people do when the youngest leaves home. people do when the youngest leaves home. people do when the youngest leaves home. It's like, I don't know what's left in It's like, I don't know what's left in It's like, I don't know what's left in this relationship, but you know, we're this relationship, but you know, we're this relationship, but you know, we're either going to get divorced or or we'll either going to get divorced or or we'll either going to get divorced or or we'll just be roommates, business partners. or just be roommates, business partners. or just be roommates, business partners. or you rekindle the romance and you may go you rekindle the romance and you may go you rekindle the romance and you may go through phases of infatuation or deep through phases of infatuation or deep through phases of infatuation or deep spiritual fervor. It probably won't be spiritual fervor. It probably won't be spiritual fervor. It probably won't be like when you first met. It probably like when you first met. It probably like when you first met. It probably won't be like that time where you're won't be like that time where you're won't be like that time where you're getting matching tattoos. It may not be getting matching tattoos. It may not be getting matching tattoos. It may not be but it has great moments and it feels but it has great moments and it feels but it has great moments and it feels like home. It just feels like home. And like home. It just feels like home. And like home. It just feels like home. And then I believe you say there's another then I believe you say there's another then I believe you say there's another stage and it's okay if you finish. You stage and it's okay if you finish. You stage and it's okay if you finish. You finish life and it's just home. You're finish life and it's just home. You're finish life and it's just home. You're home with God, home with your spouse.

home with God, home with your spouse. home with God, home with your spouse. things are in order. You know, it's a things are in order. You know, it's a things are in order. You know, it's a great lifegiving relationship. great lifegiving relationship. great lifegiving relationship. But he says sometimes you get into But he says sometimes you get into But he says sometimes you get into radical fervor, I'm going to call it, radical fervor, I'm going to call it, radical fervor, I'm going to call it, you called it something else, where you called it something else, where you called it something else, where maybe you get really serious about the maybe you get really serious about the maybe you get really serious about the scriptures or you decide you're going to scriptures or you decide you're going to scriptures or you decide you're going to sell everything and become a missionary sell everything and become a missionary sell everything and become a missionary or you decide to channel most of your or you decide to channel most of your or you decide to channel most of your earthly possessions toward a particular earthly possessions toward a particular earthly possessions toward a particular cause. and you get on mission together cause. and you get on mission together cause. and you get on mission together and everybody says you're crazy and and everybody says you're crazy and and everybody says you're crazy and you've lost your mind but you're doing you've lost your mind but you're doing you've lost your mind but you're doing it for the gospel and very few people it for the gospel and very few people it for the gospel and very few people find that is that is that the framework find that is that is that the framework find that is that is that the framework did I remember correctly did I remember correctly did I remember correctly >> and what that last phase as I say that >> and what that last phase as I say that >> and what that last phase as I say that >> in that last phase most of the time >> in that last phase most of the time >> in that last phase most of the time we're not going to do it proactively we're not going to do it proactively we're not going to do it proactively you're not going to say it's going to be you're not going to say it's going to be you're not going to say it's going to be done to you done to you done to you >> a diagnosis a stroke a cancer diagnosis >> a diagnosis a stroke a cancer diagnosis >> a diagnosis a stroke a cancer diagnosis you know a marginalization a senior's you know a marginalization a senior's you know a marginalization a senior's home. You know, the Hindus say we have home. You know, the Hindus say we have home. You know, the Hindus say we have to end up in a in a beggar's hut. Well, to end up in a in a beggar's hut. Well, to end up in a in a beggar's hut. Well, for us, the beggar's hut is assisted for us, the beggar's hut is assisted for us, the beggar's hut is assisted living.

living. living. >> Yeah. Where you're not, it's like Peter, >> Yeah. Where you're not, it's like Peter, >> Yeah. Where you're not, it's like Peter, you're not going to be able to feed feed you're not going to be able to feed feed you're not going to be able to feed feed yourself. Somebody's going to walk you yourself. Somebody's going to walk you yourself. Somebody's going to walk you around. around. around. >> Opens you radically to God. You know, >> Opens you radically to God. You know, >> Opens you radically to God. You know, you know it. I can end with this you know it. I can end with this you know it. I can end with this example. The example I went to a funeral example. The example I went to a funeral example. The example I went to a funeral some years ago was the father of one of some years ago was the father of one of some years ago was the father of one of our priests and he died at age 90. And our priests and he died at age 90. And our priests and he died at age 90. And he had been a very strong man, very he had been a very strong man, very he had been a very strong man, very successful, good athlete, good successful, good athlete, good successful, good athlete, good businessman and so on, a successful businessman and so on, a successful businessman and so on, a successful business family and so on. He died at business family and so on. He died at business family and so on. He died at age 90 and his son preached a homaly. age 90 and his son preached a homaly. age 90 and his son preached a homaly. The sermony was very good. He says, The sermony was very good. He says, The sermony was very good. He says, "Well, here lies our dad died at age "Well, here lies our dad died at age "Well, here lies our dad died at age 90." When scripture says 70 is the sum 90." When scripture says 70 is the sum 90." When scripture says 70 is the sum of a man's years, 80 for those who are of a man's years, 80 for those who are of a man's years, 80 for those who are strong, said why the extra 20 years? strong, said why the extra 20 years? strong, said why the extra 20 years? Said no accident. He said he was too Said no accident. He said he was too Said no accident. He said he was too strong and contankerous to die at 70 or strong and contankerous to die at 70 or strong and contankerous to die at 70 or 80. He said it took God these extra 80. He said it took God these extra 80. He said it took God these extra years to mellow him out sitting dead. He years to mellow him out sitting dead. He years to mellow him out sitting dead. He said he his wife died was a major blow. said he his wife died was a major blow. said he his wife died was a major blow. Then he had a stroke and then he had Then he had a stroke and then he had Then he had a stroke and then he had another stroke and he was walker and another stroke and he was walker and another stroke and he was walker and then he's in a in assisted living. He then he's in a in assisted living. He then he's in a in assisted living. He said so by the time he died he said when said so by the time he died he said when said so by the time he died he said when he visited him he take your hand and say he visited him he take your hand and say he visited him he take your hand and say help me. He couldn't say that since he help me. He couldn't say that since he help me. He couldn't say that since he was seven years old.

was seven years old. was seven years old. >> He was in charge. He's in charge. See, >> He was in charge. He's in charge. See, >> He was in charge. He's in charge. See, see um he was in the beggar's hut. He see um he was in the beggar's hut. He see um he was in the beggar's hut. He said when when he died now, he just when said when when he died now, he just when said when when he died now, he just when met God helped me, he said 10 years ago, met God helped me, he said 10 years ago, met God helped me, he said 10 years ago, he said, "Let me tell you how to run he said, "Let me tell you how to run he said, "Let me tell you how to run this place." [laughter] this place." [laughter] this place." [laughter] You know, uh when Jesus said become You know, uh when Jesus said become You know, uh when Jesus said become childlike, that's what he meant, not to childlike, that's what he meant, not to childlike, that's what he meant, not to become childish like where where you're become childish like where where you're become childish like where where you're you're not in charge. You know, you're not in charge. You know, you're not in charge. You know, you're not God. you're not God. you're not God. >> And and and the best time to start >> And and and the best time to start >> And and and the best time to start living that way is now. living that way is now. living that way is now. Right? Whether you're listening and Right? Whether you're listening and Right? Whether you're listening and you're 81 or 21, the best time you're 81 or 21, the best time you're 81 or 21, the best time >> start letting go. Start is start >> start letting go. Start is start >> start letting go. Start is start grieving. grieving. grieving. >> Give me a mantra. You know that >> Give me a mantra. You know that >> Give me a mantra. You know that Christmas song about let it snow, let it Christmas song about let it snow, let it Christmas song about let it snow, let it snow, let it snow snow, let it snow snow, let it snow is, you could just let it go, let it go, is, you could just let it go, let it go, is, you could just let it go, let it go, let it [laughter] go. let it [laughter] go. let it [laughter] go. >> That's my metronome, you know. Let it >> That's my metronome, you know. Let it >> That's my metronome, you know. Let it go, let it go, you know. Um, go, let it go, you know. Um, go, let it go, you know. Um, >> wow. >> wow. >> wow. John Mark, how does that framing that John Mark, how does that framing that John Mark, how does that framing that that maturity journey strike you as a that maturity journey strike you as a that maturity journey strike you as a man in your 40s when you think about man in your 40s when you think about man in your 40s when you think about that?

that? that? >> Yeah. I mean, I don't know what it's >> Yeah. I mean, I don't know what it's >> Yeah. I mean, I don't know what it's like to be married for 50 years. So, and like to be married for 50 years. So, and like to be married for 50 years. So, and all analogies break down. Namely, all analogies break down. Namely, all analogies break down. Namely, because as lovely as my wife is, I'm not because as lovely as my wife is, I'm not because as lovely as my wife is, I'm not married to God, the infinite being of married to God, the infinite being of married to God, the infinite being of perfect love and goodness and beauty. perfect love and goodness and beauty. perfect love and goodness and beauty. Um, but Um, but Um, but I do know that love changes and the I do know that love changes and the I do know that love changes and the fervor of youth is replaced by fervor of youth is replaced by fervor of youth is replaced by the peacefulness of covenant attachment, the peacefulness of covenant attachment, the peacefulness of covenant attachment, loyalty, loyalty, loyalty, affection. And I know that that's affection. And I know that that's affection. And I know that that's actually though it's not an emotional actually though it's not an emotional actually though it's not an emotional high, it's a profoundly more emotional high, it's a profoundly more emotional high, it's a profoundly more emotional experience, not less emotional experience, not less emotional experience, not less emotional experience, experience, experience, >> but it's so profoundly differently, you >> but it's so profoundly differently, you >> but it's so profoundly differently, you know. And I think that's part of the know. And I think that's part of the know. And I think that's part of the problems with, if I may be so bold, problems with, if I may be so bold, problems with, if I may be so bold, evangelical spirituality is it's chasing evangelical spirituality is it's chasing evangelical spirituality is it's chasing the honeymoon. the honeymoon. the honeymoon. You know, like I I can't listen to a lot You know, like I I can't listen to a lot You know, like I I can't listen to a lot of marriage teaching because it of marriage teaching because it of marriage teaching because it essentially boils down to you've lost essentially boils down to you've lost essentially boils down to you've lost the honeymoon, do these four things to the honeymoon, do these four things to the honeymoon, do these four things to get back to the honeymoon.

get back to the honeymoon. get back to the honeymoon. >> And there's no getting back to the >> And there's no getting back to the >> And there's no getting back to the honeymoon at least. And if it is, that's honeymoon at least. And if it is, that's honeymoon at least. And if it is, that's called an affair. That's how you get called an affair. That's how you get called an affair. That's how you get back to the honeymoon. back to the honeymoon. back to the honeymoon. >> It's called divorce and marry somebody >> It's called divorce and marry somebody >> It's called divorce and marry somebody younger. Like that's the honeymoon. younger. Like that's the honeymoon. younger. Like that's the honeymoon. Well, as you said, 30 years younger, Well, as you said, 30 years younger, Well, as you said, 30 years younger, right? Here it is again. right? Here it is again. right? Here it is again. >> Here it is for men. >> Here it is for men. >> Here it is for men. >> And I mean, gosh, now living on the edge >> And I mean, gosh, now living on the edge >> And I mean, gosh, now living on the edge of LA, it's just ubiquitous. You see it of LA, it's just ubiquitous. You see it of LA, it's just ubiquitous. You see it everywhere, especially for men. everywhere, especially for men. everywhere, especially for men. >> And so, you know, I'm interested in >> And so, you know, I'm interested in >> And so, you know, I'm interested in going forward, not going backward. And going forward, not going backward. And going forward, not going backward. And there's something profoundly beautiful there's something profoundly beautiful there's something profoundly beautiful there about, you know, you call it there about, you know, you call it there about, you know, you call it mellowing that in your book, Holy mellowing that in your book, Holy mellowing that in your book, Holy Longing. That's my favorite thing where Longing. That's my favorite thing where Longing. That's my favorite thing where you talk about four markers of spiritual you talk about four markers of spiritual you talk about four markers of spiritual maturity. Again, this is no no maturity. Again, this is no no maturity. Again, this is no no Protestant would ever say this, but one Protestant would ever say this, but one Protestant would ever say this, but one of your four markers of spiritual of your four markers of spiritual of your four markers of spiritual maturity for all Christians is what you maturity for all Christians is what you maturity for all Christians is what you call mellowing of soul, becoming mellow. call mellowing of soul, becoming mellow. call mellowing of soul, becoming mellow. And I think I have lived in a in a And I think I have lived in a in a And I think I have lived in a in a church tradition and spirituality. It's church tradition and spirituality. It's church tradition and spirituality. It's always about like riing people up. Not always about like riing people up. Not always about like riing people up. Not it's about passion as we would define it's about passion as we would define it's about passion as we would define passion not about mellowing but passion not about mellowing but passion not about mellowing but understanding like actually that's a understanding like actually that's a understanding like actually that's a deeply ancient Christian idea of you deeply ancient Christian idea of you deeply ancient Christian idea of you know apathetia of tranquility of know apathetia of tranquility of know apathetia of tranquility of serenity of spirit is the ultimate sign serenity of spirit is the ultimate sign serenity of spirit is the ultimate sign of spiritual maturity. So I think that's of spiritual maturity. So I think that's of spiritual maturity. So I think that's what I think of Carrie is I just man to what I think of Carrie is I just man to what I think of Carrie is I just man to be 80 and gosh I hope I don't live in be 80 and gosh I hope I don't live in be 80 and gosh I hope I don't live in assisted living but I probably will to assisted living but I probably will to assisted living but I probably will to be whatever age in that room and to be be whatever age in that room and to be be whatever age in that room and to be able to sit there peacefully able to sit there peacefully able to sit there peacefully experiencing the love of God not needing experiencing the love of God not needing experiencing the love of God not needing to write something or say something or to write something or say something or to write something or say something or be I'm certainly not going to be on a

be I'm certainly not going to be on a be I'm certainly not going to be on a podcast probably way before that day um podcast probably way before that day um podcast probably way before that day um any day soon. [laughter] any day soon. [laughter] any day soon. [laughter] I think that for me is is what I want to I think that for me is is what I want to I think that for me is is what I want to have to look forward to, you know. have to look forward to, you know. have to look forward to, you know. >> Yeah. It it it gave me what what Insane >> Yeah. It it it gave me what what Insane >> Yeah. It it it gave me what what Insane for the Light has done for me, Father for the Light has done for me, Father for the Light has done for me, Father Ron, is it gave me a framework to think Ron, is it gave me a framework to think Ron, is it gave me a framework to think about passivity because I see people who about passivity because I see people who about passivity because I see people who are 20 or 30 years older than me and the are 20 or 30 years older than me and the are 20 or 30 years older than me and the decline is inevitable. Last year with my decline is inevitable. Last year with my decline is inevitable. Last year with my illness, I got a form of anemia that illness, I got a form of anemia that illness, I got a form of anemia that just about took me out. just about took me out. just about took me out. >> Wow. And I realized, oh, there is a day >> Wow. And I realized, oh, there is a day >> Wow. And I realized, oh, there is a day where someone is going to lead me. And I where someone is going to lead me. And I where someone is going to lead me. And I had difficulty walking. I had difficulty had difficulty walking. I had difficulty had difficulty walking. I had difficulty with mobility. And you run into that. It with mobility. And you run into that. It with mobility. And you run into that. It was supposed to be the fittest year of was supposed to be the fittest year of was supposed to be the fittest year of my life. And I'm like, bang. You know, my life. And I'm like, bang. You know, my life. And I'm like, bang. You know, there it is. there it is. there it is. >> Uh, and I've recovered by the grace of >> Uh, and I've recovered by the grace of >> Uh, and I've recovered by the grace of God, but I don't want to lose the God, but I don't want to lose the God, but I don't want to lose the lesson. And I hope there's 20 or 30 more lesson. And I hope there's 20 or 30 more lesson. And I hope there's 20 or 30 more strong decades ahead. And as you said at strong decades ahead. And as you said at strong decades ahead. And as you said at the beginning, you closed the book with the beginning, you closed the book with the beginning, you closed the book with here's the creed I've lived by because here's the creed I've lived by because here's the creed I've lived by because you had a health scare a number of years you had a health scare a number of years you had a health scare a number of years ago as well, uh, Father Ron. And I'd ago as well, uh, Father Ron. And I'd ago as well, uh, Father Ron. And I'd love to know, maybe we can close on this love to know, maybe we can close on this love to know, maybe we can close on this because we're we're past our aotted time because we're we're past our aotted time because we're we're past our aotted time and I want to thank you for the and I want to thank you for the and I want to thank you for the generosity of your time, but as you're generosity of your time, but as you're generosity of your time, but as you're sitting there now, Father Ron, what is sitting there now, Father Ron, what is sitting there now, Father Ron, what is passivity? Because you're still passivity? Because you're still passivity? Because you're still contributing like you said. We still get contributing like you said. We still get contributing like you said. We still get to work. Look at you writing books and to work. Look at you writing books and to work. Look at you writing books and helping the church and teaching and and helping the church and teaching and and helping the church and teaching and and running retreats and all of and jumping running retreats and all of and jumping running retreats and all of and jumping on podcasts like this. So, thank you.

on podcasts like this. So, thank you. on podcasts like this. So, thank you. But what is passivity increasingly But what is passivity increasingly But what is passivity increasingly looking like for you now? And how is looking like for you now? And how is looking like for you now? And how is that spirituality, not just decline and that spirituality, not just decline and that spirituality, not just decline and failure? Because I think the culture failure? Because I think the culture failure? Because I think the culture only says that is decline, that is only says that is decline, that is only says that is decline, that is failure. You're of no value. failure. You're of no value. failure. You're of no value. >> I live in a country where they have >> I live in a country where they have >> I live in a country where they have assisted suicide. It's like if it's too assisted suicide. It's like if it's too assisted suicide. It's like if it's too hard, you just doesn't even need to be hard, you just doesn't even need to be hard, you just doesn't even need to be here. And you argue the opposite that in here. And you argue the opposite that in here. And you argue the opposite that in passivity, passivity, that is a passivity, passivity, that is a passivity, passivity, that is a spirituality. So I'd love to know what spirituality. So I'd love to know what spirituality. So I'd love to know what does that look like for you, Father Rod? does that look like for you, Father Rod? does that look like for you, Father Rod? >> Well, those passivity is the key, but >> Well, those passivity is the key, but >> Well, those passivity is the key, but what does it look like if we could treat what does it look like if we could treat what does it look like if we could treat me? You know, um I'll be honest, Vince, me? You know, um I'll be honest, Vince, me? You know, um I'll be honest, Vince, I've had a lot of success in my life and I've had a lot of success in my life and I've had a lot of success in my life and now uh I'm getting older. I'm a cancer now uh I'm getting older. I'm a cancer now uh I'm getting older. I'm a cancer survivor. I'm undergoing chemotherapy survivor. I'm undergoing chemotherapy survivor. I'm undergoing chemotherapy right now, you know, and I've been right now, you know, and I've been right now, you know, and I've been cancer for 15 years. been treating and cancer for 15 years. been treating and cancer for 15 years. been treating and so on. But also, you know, I'm no longer so on. But also, you know, I'm no longer so on. But also, you know, I'm no longer I've been in positions of power, I've been in positions of power, I've been in positions of power, provincial of the oblates in our general provincial of the oblates in our general provincial of the oblates in our general counsel in Rome, president here. Now I'm counsel in Rome, president here. Now I'm counsel in Rome, president here. Now I'm I'm a hasb been and they're forgetting I'm a hasb been and they're forgetting I'm a hasb been and they're forgetting about me. [laughter] about me. [laughter] about me. [laughter] >> Thank you, Gordon McDonald.

>> Thank you, Gordon McDonald. >> Thank you, Gordon McDonald. >> See, see, so I have to look at other >> See, see, so I have to look at other >> See, see, so I have to look at other ways like now um like now says to be ways like now um like now says to be ways like now um like now says to be fruitful, fruitful, fruitful, not just to be successful. like now I not just to be successful. like now I not just to be successful. like now I have to say what am I leaving behind you have to say what am I leaving behind you have to say what am I leaving behind you know um how can I go to work every day know um how can I go to work every day know um how can I go to work every day and how can I die without you know like and how can I die without you know like and how can I die without you know like to leave like Jesus leave a spirit of to leave like Jesus leave a spirit of to leave like Jesus leave a spirit of peace behind that I'm not toxic in some peace behind that I'm not toxic in some peace behind that I'm not toxic in some way and so on um just a lot of letting way and so on um just a lot of letting way and so on um just a lot of letting go letting go letting go um as we get go letting go letting go um as we get go letting go letting go um as we get older we're going to get marginalized older we're going to get marginalized older we're going to get marginalized often times we're going to have bad often times we're going to have bad often times we're going to have bad health um you know um I used to spend health um you know um I used to spend health um you know um I used to spend summers hiking in the mountains this summers hiking in the mountains this summers hiking in the mountains this summer. I don't know if I'm going to be summer. I don't know if I'm going to be summer. I don't know if I'm going to be hiking anywhere, you know. Um hiking anywhere, you know. Um hiking anywhere, you know. Um >> um but I need to to let that go and um >> um but I need to to let that go and um >> um but I need to to let that go and um and and trust. It's interesting you and and trust. It's interesting you and and trust. It's interesting you mentioned, you know, assisted suicide. mentioned, you know, assisted suicide. mentioned, you know, assisted suicide. You know what the reason we have You know what the reason we have You know what the reason we have assisted suicide? Because our culture assisted suicide? Because our culture assisted suicide? Because our culture and churches don't get this. Until we and churches don't get this. Until we and churches don't get this. Until we get captivity, we're going to have get captivity, we're going to have get captivity, we're going to have assisted suicide because why should I assisted suicide because why should I assisted suicide because why should I stay alive? I'm useless. Um I'm in pain, stay alive? I'm useless. Um I'm in pain, stay alive? I'm useless. Um I'm in pain, you know. um I'm not giving anything you know. um I'm not giving anything you know. um I'm not giving anything anymore. And maybe they're giving more anymore. And maybe they're giving more anymore. And maybe they're giving more now than they ever gave, you know, but now than they ever gave, you know, but now than they ever gave, you know, but at the root of assisted suicide is that at the root of assisted suicide is that at the root of assisted suicide is that we don't get passivity, you know.

we don't get passivity, you know. we don't get passivity, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I I want to thank you so >> Yeah. Well, I I want to thank you so >> Yeah. Well, I I want to thank you so much. It's just a reframing. Um John much. It's just a reframing. Um John much. It's just a reframing. Um John Mark, any concluding thoughts or Mark, any concluding thoughts or Mark, any concluding thoughts or comments? Uh Father Ron, uh what a gift comments? Uh Father Ron, uh what a gift comments? Uh Father Ron, uh what a gift this has been. I feel like this is a this has been. I feel like this is a this has been. I feel like this is a this has been a warm embrace. It's super this has been a warm embrace. It's super this has been a warm embrace. It's super challenging for people. I would challenging for people. I would challenging for people. I would encourage people well read the whole encourage people well read the whole encourage people well read the whole trilogy. Insane for the light is the trilogy. Insane for the light is the trilogy. Insane for the light is the third part. I read it backwards. So, uh, third part. I read it backwards. So, uh, third part. I read it backwards. So, uh, but having sort of entered that phase, but having sort of entered that phase, but having sort of entered that phase, the beginning of the end, the beginning of the end, the beginning of the end, >> I I really found because you're right, >> I I really found because you're right, >> I I really found because you're right, the culture only has Yeah. decline, the culture only has Yeah. decline, the culture only has Yeah. decline, obscurity, worthlessness, no value. What obscurity, worthlessness, no value. What obscurity, worthlessness, no value. What are you contributing? Not worth it. And are you contributing? Not worth it. And are you contributing? Not worth it. And what a gift this is. what a gift this is. what a gift this is. >> Yeah. Yeah. I would just say if you're >> Yeah. Yeah. I would just say if you're >> Yeah. Yeah. I would just say if you're listening and you're in your 20s or 30s, listening and you're in your 20s or 30s, listening and you're in your 20s or 30s, read The Holy Longing, part one or a read The Holy Longing, part one or a read The Holy Longing, part one or a domestic monastery if you're a parent. domestic monastery if you're a parent. domestic monastery if you're a parent. If you're nearing 40 or you're at that If you're nearing 40 or you're at that If you're nearing 40 or you're at that spot where I just call it tired, the spot where I just call it tired, the spot where I just call it tired, the whole the 50 years of tired, uh, read whole the 50 years of tired, uh, read whole the 50 years of tired, uh, read Sacred Fire. And then if you're like me, Sacred Fire. And then if you're like me, Sacred Fire. And then if you're like me, go read it 10 more times. And then if go read it 10 more times. And then if go read it 10 more times. And then if you're nearing the end, read Insane for you're nearing the end, read Insane for you're nearing the end, read Insane for the Light. And, you know, further on, the Light. And, you know, further on, the Light. And, you know, further on, it's so funny. Um, you have a little fan it's so funny. Um, you have a little fan it's so funny. Um, you have a little fan club over here with me and a couple of club over here with me and a couple of club over here with me and a couple of my dear pastor friends and brothers and my dear pastor friends and brothers and my dear pastor friends and brothers and brother-in-laws and we all read Insane brother-in-laws and we all read Insane brother-in-laws and we all read Insane for the Light right when it came out.

for the Light right when it came out. for the Light right when it came out. None of us are remotely in the stage of None of us are remotely in the stage of None of us are remotely in the stage of life you're writing about and yet we all life you're writing about and yet we all life you're writing about and yet we all like just loved it and we're all texting like just loved it and we're all texting like just loved it and we're all texting back and forth about it and we're like back and forth about it and we're like back and forth about it and we're like in our 40s and a couple of them are in in our 40s and a couple of them are in in our 40s and a couple of them are in their late 30s, you know, but we still their late 30s, you know, but we still their late 30s, you know, but we still loved it. But I just kept thinking, man, loved it. But I just kept thinking, man, loved it. But I just kept thinking, man, I I I want to thank you in advance. You I I I want to thank you in advance. You I I I want to thank you in advance. You will likely, unless if the will likely, unless if the will likely, unless if the transhumanists have it right, you will transhumanists have it right, you will transhumanists have it right, you will be be be um not on this earth, you will be with um not on this earth, you will be with um not on this earth, you will be with Jesus in a greater way Jesus in a greater way Jesus in a greater way >> with Jesus. when I reach the point where >> with Jesus. when I reach the point where >> with Jesus. when I reach the point where I need to apply directly in saying for I need to apply directly in saying for I need to apply directly in saying for the light and I'm just so grateful that the light and I'm just so grateful that the light and I'm just so grateful that when that day comes I will have this when that day comes I will have this when that day comes I will have this book right here 5 ft from me on my shelf book right here 5 ft from me on my shelf book right here 5 ft from me on my shelf >> that will give me out of the treasure >> that will give me out of the treasure >> that will give me out of the treasure trove of scripture and church history trove of scripture and church history trove of scripture and church history and accumulated human wisdom a a map for and accumulated human wisdom a a map for and accumulated human wisdom a a map for how to follow Jesus should I live that how to follow Jesus should I live that how to follow Jesus should I live that long and maybe I'll die tomorrow but if long and maybe I'll die tomorrow but if long and maybe I'll die tomorrow but if I live that long and I'm just so I live that long and I'm just so I live that long and I'm just so profound profoundly grateful. I think profound profoundly grateful. I think profound profoundly grateful. I think one of the greatest gifts you've given one of the greatest gifts you've given one of the greatest gifts you've given us, Father Ron, is you've walked with us, Father Ron, is you've walked with us, Father Ron, is you've walked with Jesus for many years or decades. And Jesus for many years or decades. And Jesus for many years or decades. And you've gone through things that we've you've gone through things that we've you've gone through things that we've not gone through yet. The wilderness, not gone through yet. The wilderness, not gone through yet. The wilderness, the dark night of the soul, aging, the dark night of the soul, aging, the dark night of the soul, aging, cancer, chemotherapy, being a hasband, cancer, chemotherapy, being a hasband, cancer, chemotherapy, being a hasband, success, failure, and you can leave success, failure, and you can leave success, failure, and you can leave behind for us some notes about what to behind for us some notes about what to behind for us some notes about what to avoid and what to lean into. And even avoid and what to lean into. And even avoid and what to lean into. And even now to have the gift um to start now to have the gift um to start now to have the gift um to start practicing some of this now uh practicing some of this now uh practicing some of this now uh hiddenness offloading like grieving

hiddenness offloading like grieving hiddenness offloading like grieving letting go letting go letting go. I just letting go letting go letting go. I just letting go letting go letting go. I just want to say thank you. want to say thank you. want to say thank you. >> Thank you both. Thanks. >> Thank you both. Thanks. >> Thank you both. Thanks. >> Thank you Father Ron. You know >> Thank you Father Ron. You know >> Thank you Father Ron. You know >> and prayers for your ministry. We're all >> and prayers for your ministry. We're all >> and prayers for your ministry. We're all in the same business in the same business in the same business >> and >> and >> and >> in spirituality there are no >> in spirituality there are no >> in spirituality there are no denominations. denominations. denominations. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I cannot thank you both enough. John I cannot thank you both enough. John I cannot thank you both enough. John Mark, thanks for saying, "Hey, why don't Mark, thanks for saying, "Hey, why don't Mark, thanks for saying, "Hey, why don't we do this together?" What a great idea. we do this together?" What a great idea. we do this together?" What a great idea. >> Yeah. Presumptuously inviting myself on >> Yeah. Presumptuously inviting myself on >> Yeah. Presumptuously inviting myself on a podcast. Yep. Won't make that a Won't a podcast. Yep. Won't make that a Won't a podcast. Yep. Won't make that a Won't make that a habit. make that a habit. make that a habit. >> Thank you, Father Ron. Thank you, John >> Thank you, Father Ron. Thank you, John >> Thank you, Father Ron. Thank you, John Mark. Oh, that was rich, man. I think we Mark. Oh, that was rich, man. I think we Mark. Oh, that was rich, man. I think we have to do a round two at some point. have to do a round two at some point. have to do a round two at some point. And one of the things uh Father Ron says And one of the things uh Father Ron says And one of the things uh Father Ron says in the book and I wanted to get to it in the book and I wanted to get to it in the book and I wanted to get to it but I really wanted to honor his time but I really wanted to honor his time but I really wanted to honor his time was he says when you pass away you're was he says when you pass away you're was he says when you pass away you're basically reduced to a thought and I basically reduced to a thought and I basically reduced to a thought and I wrote about this uh a number of years wrote about this uh a number of years wrote about this uh a number of years ago in my book didn't see it coming like ago in my book didn't see it coming like ago in my book didn't see it coming like having done hundreds of funerals having done hundreds of funerals having done hundreds of funerals eventually as much as you know you talk eventually as much as you know you talk eventually as much as you know you talk about the person talk about the person 5 about the person talk about the person 5 about the person talk about the person 5 years from now even to your kids you're years from now even to your kids you're years from now even to your kids you're going to become a sentence it's going to going to become a sentence it's going to going to become a sentence it's going to be like oh dad he was a he was a super be like oh dad he was a he was a super be like oh dad he was a he was a super nice guy or man he was bitter or he was nice guy or man he was bitter or he was nice guy or man he was bitter or he was mean or whatever, you become almost an mean or whatever, you become almost an mean or whatever, you become almost an adjective. And that's what Father Ron adjective. And that's what Father Ron adjective. And that's what Father Ron was saying is like after you die, if you was saying is like after you die, if you was saying is like after you die, if you don't do the hard work of grieving your don't do the hard work of grieving your don't do the hard work of grieving your losses and working through the losses and working through the losses and working through the bitterness and getting to forgiveness bitterness and getting to forgiveness bitterness and getting to forgiveness and realizing, no, I was not my mother's and realizing, no, I was not my mother's and realizing, no, I was not my mother's favorite child. But you know what? I've

favorite child. But you know what? I've favorite child. But you know what? I've learned to come to terms with that. You learned to come to terms with that. You learned to come to terms with that. You can become either a negative sentiment can become either a negative sentiment can become either a negative sentiment like when somebody thinks of you you like when somebody thinks of you you like when somebody thinks of you you become like oh that was a toxic become like oh that was a toxic become like oh that was a toxic relationship or that was a toxic person relationship or that was a toxic person relationship or that was a toxic person or you become oh what a blessing or or you become oh what a blessing or or you become oh what a blessing or sometimes I would say you become a sometimes I would say you become a sometimes I would say you become a question mark it's like huh never question mark it's like huh never question mark it's like huh never understood that person so wherever you understood that person so wherever you understood that person so wherever you are in life we have a lot of young are in life we have a lot of young are in life we have a lot of young listeners listening watching uh do the listeners listening watching uh do the listeners listening watching uh do the hard work do the hard work give yourself hard work do the hard work give yourself hard work do the hard work give yourself space to grieve space to process John space to grieve space to process John space to grieve space to process John Mark's doing that in real time father Mark's doing that in real time father Mark's doing that in real time father Ron has done that in real time. I I Ron has done that in real time. I I Ron has done that in real time. I I ignored it for 40 years. Paid a price. ignored it for 40 years. Paid a price. ignored it for 40 years. Paid a price. You don't want to pay that price. Trust You don't want to pay that price. Trust You don't want to pay that price. Trust me. So, a little bit of editorial me. So, a little bit of editorial me. So, a little bit of editorial comment there. We have show notes for comment there. We have show notes for comment there. We have show notes for you. You can find them. And the Art of you. You can find them. And the Art of you. You can find them. And the Art of Leadership Academy. Join 22,000 leaders Leadership Academy. Join 22,000 leaders Leadership Academy. Join 22,000 leaders inside the Art of Leadership Academy. inside the Art of Leadership Academy. inside the Art of Leadership Academy. You can join for free today. Get access You can join for free today. Get access You can join for free today. Get access to the show notes. Go to the art of to the show notes. Go to the art of to the show notes. Go to the art of leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com leadershipacademy.com and you'll find all the links to Father and you'll find all the links to Father and you'll find all the links to Father Ron's material, his books, and the Ron's material, his books, and the Ron's material, his books, and the various resources that we talked about various resources that we talked about various resources that we talked about in the course of this hour and a half in the course of this hour and a half in the course of this hour and a half conversation. Hope this conversation was conversation. Hope this conversation was conversation. Hope this conversation was helpful to you. If it was and you helpful to you. If it was and you helpful to you. If it was and you haven't hit follow or subscribe yet, haven't hit follow or subscribe yet, haven't hit follow or subscribe yet, please do that wherever you're watching, please do that wherever you're watching, please do that wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. And coming wherever you're listening. And coming wherever you're listening. And coming up, we've got Aaron Graham, Tyler Stton, up, we've got Aaron Graham, Tyler Stton, up, we've got Aaron Graham, Tyler Stton, good friend of John Mark Comr, Will good friend of John Mark Comr, Will good friend of John Mark Comr, Will Gera, Rich Burch, and a whole lot more Gera, Rich Burch, and a whole lot more Gera, Rich Burch, and a whole lot more coming up on the podcast. And when you coming up on the podcast. And when you coming up on the podcast. And when you follow, well, you know what? You you follow, well, you know what? You you follow, well, you know what? You you never miss an episode. If this episode never miss an episode. If this episode never miss an episode. If this episode was helpful to you, maybe you want to was helpful to you, maybe you want to was helpful to you, maybe you want to share this with a friend and leave a

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