John Mark Comer Explains the Biggest Challenge Facing Modern Discipleship

And I think some people think, "Oh, he's And I think some people think, "Oh, he's drifting leftward." Like he's getting drifting leftward." Like he's getting drifting leftward." Like he's getting sucked into. And it could not be further sucked into. And it could not be further sucked into. And it could not be further from the truth. Like I am deeply rooted from the truth. Like I am deeply rooted from the truth. Like I am deeply rooted in the orthodox teachings of the church in the orthodox teachings of the church in the orthodox teachings of the church and deeply rooted in scripture. I have and deeply rooted in scripture. I have and deeply rooted in scripture. I have been drifting though, I realize. And been drifting though, I realize. And been drifting though, I realize. And it's drifting backward. it's drifting backward. it's drifting backward. >> I've not been drifting to the right or >> I've not been drifting to the right or >> I've not been drifting to the right or the left. I've been drifting back into the left. I've been drifting back into the left. I've been drifting back into church history. church history. church history. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. I hope our time leadership podcast. I hope our time leadership podcast. I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life together today helps you thrive in life together today helps you thrive in life and leadership today. and leadership today. and leadership today. I am with John Mark Comr. A lot of you I am with John Mark Comr. A lot of you I am with John Mark Comr. A lot of you know who he is. He is the founder and know who he is. He is the founder and know who he is. He is the founder and the primary teacher of Practicing the the primary teacher of Practicing the the primary teacher of Practicing the Way, New York Times bestselling author. Way, New York Times bestselling author. Way, New York Times bestselling author. What do we talk about? Well, we talk What do we talk about? Well, we talk What do we talk about? Well, we talk about him heading into the desert. Okay. about him heading into the desert. Okay. about him heading into the desert. Okay. 21 days and what it did to him or 21 days and what it did to him or 21 days and what it did to him or basically what it undid in him. Um what basically what it undid in him. Um what basically what it undid in him. Um what that means for your life. We also kind that means for your life. We also kind that means for your life. We also kind of set the record straight. Some people of set the record straight. Some people of set the record straight. Some people are like, "Where are you drifting?" You are like, "Where are you drifting?" You are like, "Where are you drifting?" You know, to the left, to the right. He He's know, to the left, to the right. He He's know, to the left, to the right. He He's going to set the record straight on this going to set the record straight on this going to set the record straight on this one. And we also have conversations one. And we also have conversations one. And we also have conversations about [music] quiet and noise and just about [music] quiet and noise and just about [music] quiet and noise and just how important it is to be still and know how important it is to be still and know how important it is to be still and know that God is God. And I know that sounds that God is God. And I know that sounds that God is God. And I know that sounds like a Christian tourism. Trust me, when like a Christian tourism. Trust me, when like a Christian tourism. Trust me, when you're done with our conversation today, you're done with our conversation today, you're done with our conversation today, you'll realize it won't be. So now, you'll realize it won't be. So now, you'll realize it won't be. So now, without further ado, my conversation in without further ado, my conversation in without further ado, my conversation in his home just outside of Malibu, his home just outside of Malibu, his home just outside of Malibu, California. My conversation with John California. My conversation with John California. My conversation with John Mark Comr. John Mark, welcome back.

Mark Comr. John Mark, welcome back. Mark Comr. John Mark, welcome back. really great to be with you. really great to be with you. really great to be with you. >> Thanks for opening up your home, having >> Thanks for opening up your home, having >> Thanks for opening up your home, having a conversation. I a conversation. I a conversation. I >> say welcome back. I've been here for a >> say welcome back. I've been here for a >> say welcome back. I've been here for a while now. while now. while now. >> Yeah, that's right. You've been here for >> Yeah, that's right. You've been here for >> Yeah, that's right. You've been here for a while and it's our second time here at a while and it's our second time here at a while and it's our second time here at your place. You've been thinking a lot your place. You've been thinking a lot your place. You've been thinking a lot about noise. about noise. about noise. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And we prayed before we started this >> And we prayed before we started this >> And we prayed before we started this conversation. We had a moment in conversation. We had a moment in conversation. We had a moment in silence. silence. silence. You're right. I mean, I had a peek at You're right. I mean, I had a peek at You're right. I mean, I had a peek at your project. I'm in LA. It is a noisy your project. I'm in LA. It is a noisy your project. I'm in LA. It is a noisy city. We live in a noisy world. What are city. We live in a noisy world. What are city. We live in a noisy world. What are you thinking about lately when it comes you thinking about lately when it comes you thinking about lately when it comes to noise distraction? to noise distraction? to noise distraction? >> Yeah. Well, >> Yeah. Well, >> Yeah. Well, there are multiple types of noise. there are multiple types of noise. there are multiple types of noise. One is the kind offormational noise of One is the kind offormational noise of One is the kind offormational noise of the information age and the digital the information age and the digital the information age and the digital world that's just this sonic assault in world that's just this sonic assault in world that's just this sonic assault in our front right pocket everywhere we go. our front right pocket everywhere we go. our front right pocket everywhere we go. But then there's just like the auditory But then there's just like the auditory But then there's just like the auditory noise noise, you know, not the noise noise, you know, not the noise noise, you know, not the metaphoric, the literal. And uh LA is metaphoric, the literal. And uh LA is metaphoric, the literal. And uh LA is one of the loudest cities in the world, one of the loudest cities in the world, one of the loudest cities in the world, but most cities are really loud. And but most cities are really loud. And but most cities are really loud. And I've just been tracking a lot with um I've just been tracking a lot with um I've just been tracking a lot with um the noise pollution research coming out the noise pollution research coming out the noise pollution research coming out of science. And there's a growing kind of science. And there's a growing kind of science. And there's a growing kind of body of scientists that are really of body of scientists that are really of body of scientists that are really starting to sound the alarm. And I think starting to sound the alarm. And I think starting to sound the alarm. And I think the the thought is that in the same way the the thought is that in the same way the the thought is that in the same way we look back now at cigarettes or lead we look back now at cigarettes or lead we look back now at cigarettes or lead paint or mercury or asbestous, we will paint or mercury or asbestous, we will paint or mercury or asbestous, we will one day look back at helicopters

one day look back at helicopters one day look back at helicopters overhead and freeways because of just overhead and freeways because of just overhead and freeways because of just the devastating impact it has on the the devastating impact it has on the the devastating impact it has on the body and the mind. And so if you think body and the mind. And so if you think body and the mind. And so if you think about it, I'm not a scientist, but if about it, I'm not a scientist, but if about it, I'm not a scientist, but if you think about it at just like a um you think about it at just like a um you think about it at just like a um pretty basic level, our bodies were pretty basic level, our bodies were pretty basic level, our bodies were created created created and you know, evolved or whatever for and you know, evolved or whatever for and you know, evolved or whatever for quieter soundscapes. So your body quieter soundscapes. So your body quieter soundscapes. So your body essentially, this is how I understand essentially, this is how I understand essentially, this is how I understand the science, it interprets any sound the science, it interprets any sound the science, it interprets any sound over a certain decel range as a threat. over a certain decel range as a threat. over a certain decel range as a threat. So if you're out in nature, like I So if you're out in nature, like I So if you're out in nature, like I started backpacking recently and I just started backpacking recently and I just started backpacking recently and I just love it. you're out in the Sierra Neadas love it. you're out in the Sierra Neadas love it. you're out in the Sierra Neadas or whatever in the eastern Sierra Neadas or whatever in the eastern Sierra Neadas or whatever in the eastern Sierra Neadas and you're in nature. I went this and you're in nature. I went this and you're in nature. I went this summer. We saw one person in 4 days. If summer. We saw one person in 4 days. If summer. We saw one person in 4 days. If you're out there, if you hear something you're out there, if you hear something you're out there, if you hear something really loud, the odds of it being really loud, the odds of it being really loud, the odds of it being dangerous are extremely high, right? It dangerous are extremely high, right? It dangerous are extremely high, right? It is a predator or it's an avalanche or is a predator or it's an avalanche or is a predator or it's an avalanche or it's a rock slide or in other parts of it's a rock slide or in other parts of it's a rock slide or in other parts of the country it's a hurricane or a the country it's a hurricane or a the country it's a hurricane or a tornado or a tsunami wave. There are tornado or a tsunami wave. There are tornado or a tsunami wave. There are very few things in nature that are loud very few things in nature that are loud very few things in nature that are loud and safe. So, when you're driving down and safe. So, when you're driving down and safe. So, when you're driving down the 405 freeway in Los Angeles, your the 405 freeway in Los Angeles, your the 405 freeway in Los Angeles, your left brain may know, I'm just driving left brain may know, I'm just driving left brain may know, I'm just driving down the freeway and it's noisy and down the freeway and it's noisy and down the freeway and it's noisy and there's a plane overhead and a garbage there's a plane overhead and a garbage there's a plane overhead and a garbage truck next to me, but your body is just truck next to me, but your body is just truck next to me, but your body is just hearing danger, danger, danger. And so, hearing danger, danger, danger. And so, hearing danger, danger, danger. And so, it puts your body into fight or flight it puts your body into fight or flight it puts your body into fight or flight just being exposed to a certain decel just being exposed to a certain decel just being exposed to a certain decel range, which by the way is well over the range, which by the way is well over the range, which by the way is well over the decel range of most modern church decel range of most modern church decel range of most modern church services. And so like there's this

services. And so like there's this services. And so like there's this physical element to noise that has physical element to noise that has physical element to noise that has profound implications on our disciplehip profound implications on our disciplehip profound implications on our disciplehip to Jesus because any disciple of Jesus to Jesus because any disciple of Jesus to Jesus because any disciple of Jesus is going to be thinking really carefully is going to be thinking really carefully is going to be thinking really carefully about anxiety because once we trigger about anxiety because once we trigger about anxiety because once we trigger our body's kind of autonomic fight our body's kind of autonomic fight our body's kind of autonomic fight orflight system, we have then just made orflight system, we have then just made orflight system, we have then just made loving whoever is in front of us next to loving whoever is in front of us next to loving whoever is in front of us next to impossible because you're going to go impossible because you're going to go impossible because you're going to go into fight or flight or free. you're not into fight or flight or free. you're not into fight or flight or free. you're not going to go into self-sacrificial love. going to go into self-sacrificial love. going to go into self-sacrificial love. So Christ is the prince of peace. And it So Christ is the prince of peace. And it So Christ is the prince of peace. And it it it that's not a that's not just like it it that's not a that's not just like it it that's not a that's not just like another nice Christian virtue. It's a another nice Christian virtue. It's a another nice Christian virtue. It's a prerequisite virtue to becoming a person prerequisite virtue to becoming a person prerequisite virtue to becoming a person of love. The most loving people, you of love. The most loving people, you of love. The most loving people, you know, tend to be the most peaceful, you know, tend to be the most peaceful, you know, tend to be the most peaceful, you know, and highly anxious people tend to know, and highly anxious people tend to know, and highly anxious people tend to misbehave relationally everywhere they misbehave relationally everywhere they misbehave relationally everywhere they go. And I say that with no judgment. I go. And I say that with no judgment. I go. And I say that with no judgment. I say that as a highly anxious person say that as a highly anxious person say that as a highly anxious person who's doing what I'm what I'm saying. who's doing what I'm what I'm saying. who's doing what I'm what I'm saying. So, I just think the noise of the world, So, I just think the noise of the world, So, I just think the noise of the world, and we're not even talking about op-eds and we're not even talking about op-eds and we're not even talking about op-eds and political polarization and social and political polarization and social and political polarization and social media and the incessant conspiracy media and the incessant conspiracy media and the incessant conspiracy theories and the noise of our devices, theories and the noise of our devices, theories and the noise of our devices, just the noise of the world, I think has just the noise of the world, I think has just the noise of the world, I think has profound implications that I think profound implications that I think profound implications that I think Christians and churches need to really Christians and churches need to really Christians and churches need to really think about.

think about. think about. >> You did a retreat, I don't know how long >> You did a retreat, I don't know how long >> You did a retreat, I don't know how long ago, but was it the last year or so? ago, but was it the last year or so? ago, but was it the last year or so? >> Uh, you're referring to the 21day. Yeah, >> Uh, you're referring to the 21day. Yeah, >> Uh, you're referring to the 21day. Yeah, that [laughter] was right. Uh that was that [laughter] was right. Uh that was that [laughter] was right. Uh that was in 2021. in 2021. in 2021. >> Oh, it was it was that long >> Oh, it was it was that long >> Oh, it was it was that long >> when I stepped down from Bridgetown. I >> when I stepped down from Bridgetown. I >> when I stepped down from Bridgetown. I had a six-month sbatical. I I'd wanted had a six-month sbatical. I I'd wanted had a six-month sbatical. I I'd wanted to do it for a long time, but it's 3 to do it for a long time, but it's 3 to do it for a long time, but it's 3 weeks long and I was like, man, how do I weeks long and I was like, man, how do I weeks long and I was like, man, how do I pull that off in my like give all of my pull that off in my like give all of my pull that off in my like give all of my vacation so it was the first time I had vacation so it was the first time I had vacation so it was the first time I had I had time and I did it then. I had time and I did it then. I had time and I did it then. >> So, lots of people do retreats, right? >> So, lots of people do retreats, right? >> So, lots of people do retreats, right? But this was, do you want to take us But this was, do you want to take us But this was, do you want to take us back into what that was like? Because it back into what that was like? Because it back into what that was like? Because it was excruciating because of the fact I was excruciating because of the fact I was excruciating because of the fact I guess that there was absolutely nothing guess that there was absolutely nothing guess that there was absolutely nothing to do other than of an hour with to do other than of an hour with to do other than of an hour with Gandalf. Gandalf. Gandalf. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In the morning. Do you want Do you want >> In the morning. Do you want Do you want >> In the morning. Do you want Do you want to describe that a little bit? to describe that a little bit? to describe that a little bit? >> Sure. It was um it's a beautiful >> Sure. It was um it's a beautiful >> Sure. It was um it's a beautiful paradigm. This program is five decades paradigm. This program is five decades paradigm. This program is five decades old. I think the guy who runs it now is old. I think the guy who runs it now is old. I think the guy who runs it now is he looks eerily like Gandalf and he is he looks eerily like Gandalf and he is he looks eerily like Gandalf and he is like a doctor of the soul kind of guy.

like a doctor of the soul kind of guy. like a doctor of the soul kind of guy. He's older and he went through the He's older and he went through the He's older and he went through the program as a PhD student um out of program as a PhD student um out of program as a PhD student um out of Fuller back in forever ago. Fuller back in forever ago. Fuller back in forever ago. >> And so when I had done it, he I think >> And so when I had done it, he I think >> And so when I had done it, he I think that was his 44th year or something. that was his 44th year or something. that was his 44th year or something. Program has no name, no website. I can't Program has no name, no website. I can't Program has no name, no website. I can't tell you where to go find it. It's all tell you where to go find it. It's all tell you where to go find it. It's all word of mouth. You can't Google it. Um, word of mouth. You can't Google it. Um, word of mouth. You can't Google it. Um, and it's essentially an attempt to and it's essentially an attempt to and it's essentially an attempt to recreate, he would say, what happened to recreate, he would say, what happened to recreate, he would say, what happened to Jesus in the desert or Elijah in the Jesus in the desert or Elijah in the Jesus in the desert or Elijah in the desert or Moses in the desert. So, it's desert or Moses in the desert. So, it's desert or Moses in the desert. So, it's 21 days. It's up in the Pacific 21 days. It's up in the Pacific 21 days. It's up in the Pacific Northwest. You're in this tiny little Northwest. You're in this tiny little Northwest. You're in this tiny little cabin on kind of an ocean sound in a cabin on kind of an ocean sound in a cabin on kind of an ocean sound in a like very rural area right on the water, like very rural area right on the water, like very rural area right on the water, but it's like I went I did it in winter, but it's like I went I did it in winter, but it's like I went I did it in winter, which was a terrible idea. It was like which was a terrible idea. It was like which was a terrible idea. It was like over the top depressing. And uh, over the top depressing. And uh, over the top depressing. And uh, >> did it rain every day? It rained >> did it rain every day? It rained >> did it rain every day? It rained literally 21 days in a row. Um, I did literally 21 days in a row. Um, I did literally 21 days in a row. Um, I did get into cold plunging. That was fun. get into cold plunging. That was fun. get into cold plunging. That was fun. That's my first time. I just went into That's my first time. I just went into That's my first time. I just went into the ocean every day, but it was the ocean every day, but it was the ocean every day, but it was miserable. miserable. miserable. And, uh, the idea is basically for 3 And, uh, the idea is basically for 3 And, uh, the idea is basically for 3 weeks, it's the strict rules. So, you weeks, it's the strict rules. So, you weeks, it's the strict rules. So, you turn in all of your devices, like turn in all of your devices, like turn in all of your devices, like absolutely nothing. No phone, no laptop, absolutely nothing. No phone, no laptop, absolutely nothing. No phone, no laptop, no uh books are allowed.

no uh books are allowed. no uh books are allowed. >> That was the part that got me. who can't >> That was the part that got me. who can't >> That was the part that got me. who can't even read cuz I'm like great I'm going even read cuz I'm like great I'm going even read cuz I'm like great I'm going to get to get to get >> even the Bible like the Bible was quote >> even the Bible like the Bible was quote >> even the Bible like the Bible was quote allowed that was the word he used but allowed that was the word he used but allowed that was the word he used but with a strong warning and he said only with a strong warning and he said only with a strong warning and he said only if you do not use it as a distraction if you do not use it as a distraction if you do not use it as a distraction from God and I'm just like [laughter] from God and I'm just like [laughter] from God and I'm just like [laughter] okay this is not what I'm used to and um okay this is not what I'm used to and um okay this is not what I'm used to and um no alcohol no more than one cup of no alcohol no more than one cup of no alcohol no more than one cup of coffee a day no exercise so you allowed coffee a day no exercise so you allowed coffee a day no exercise so you allowed to go for a walk again rural area would to go for a walk again rural area would to go for a walk again rural area would go on a long walk every day but you're go on a long walk every day but you're go on a long walk every day but you're not allowed no push-up s no gyms. not allowed no push-up s no gyms. not allowed no push-up s no gyms. >> No, you can't go running. Nothing. >> No, you can't go running. Nothing. >> No, you can't go running. Nothing. Nothing to quote discharge anxiety from Nothing to quote discharge anxiety from Nothing to quote discharge anxiety from your body. He wants you to feel like all your body. He wants you to feel like all your body. He wants you to feel like all of the bad stuff. And then your one, you of the bad stuff. And then your one, you of the bad stuff. And then your one, you pack in all of your own groceries and pack in all of your own groceries and pack in all of your own groceries and your one, you do all your own cooking. your one, you do all your own cooking. your one, you do all your own cooking. Your one point of contact with the Your one point of contact with the Your one point of contact with the outside world is five mornings a week, outside world is five mornings a week, outside world is five mornings a week, Monday through Friday at 5:50 a.m. And I Monday through Friday at 5:50 a.m. And I Monday through Friday at 5:50 a.m. And I was like, why so early? And he said was like, why so early? And he said was like, why so early? And he said because your mind is more open to its because your mind is more open to its because your mind is more open to its unconscious and uh you do an hour and a unconscious and uh you do an hour and a unconscious and uh you do an hour and a half of depth therapy which is half of depth therapy which is half of depth therapy which is essentially like normal therapy but essentially like normal therapy but essentially like normal therapy but without the happy feelings [laughter] at without the happy feelings [laughter] at without the happy feelings [laughter] at the end the end the end >> and just leaves you depressed. in his >> and just leaves you depressed. in his >> and just leaves you depressed. in his modality, you kind of start with your modality, you kind of start with your modality, you kind of start with your family of origin and you, you know, day family of origin and you, you know, day family of origin and you, you know, day one was like, let's bring dad into the one was like, let's bring dad into the one was like, let's bring dad into the room. And I mean, it was the most like room. And I mean, it was the most like room. And I mean, it was the most like out there stuff I've ever done. And it out there stuff I've ever done. And it out there stuff I've ever done. And it was a mix of kind of spiritual direction was a mix of kind of spiritual direction was a mix of kind of spiritual direction and clinical psychology. And you kind of and clinical psychology. And you kind of and clinical psychology. And you kind of start with your upbringing and you start with your upbringing and you start with your upbringing and you worked your way in concentric circles

worked your way in concentric circles worked your way in concentric circles over a couple of weeks up to the present over a couple of weeks up to the present over a couple of weeks up to the present day. day. day. And what happens when And what happens when And what happens when because I I looked at some writing because I I looked at some writing because I I looked at some writing you've done on this and you've done on this and you've done on this and you you said it was it was extremely you you said it was it was extremely you you said it was it was extremely difficult to have nothing. I mean you difficult to have nothing. I mean you difficult to have nothing. I mean you wrote ruthless elimination of hurry. wrote ruthless elimination of hurry. wrote ruthless elimination of hurry. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And literally like you still you I >> And literally like you still you I >> And literally like you still you I imagine you play by a version of those imagine you play by a version of those imagine you play by a version of those rules, right? Like rules, right? Like rules, right? Like >> when we message I rarely get anything >> when we message I rarely get anything >> when we message I rarely get anything from you in the morning. It's like cell from you in the morning. It's like cell from you in the morning. It's like cell phones away, laptops away. You're in phones away, laptops away. You're in phones away, laptops away. You're in this beautiful I live area now. this beautiful I live area now. this beautiful I live area now. >> You do? Yeah. At the top of a mountain. >> You do? Yeah. At the top of a mountain. >> You do? Yeah. At the top of a mountain. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> And uh you know, it's a pretty simple >> And uh you know, it's a pretty simple >> And uh you know, it's a pretty simple aesthetic. There's not a lot of aesthetic. There's not a lot of aesthetic. There's not a lot of distractions. I don't see a TV in this distractions. I don't see a TV in this distractions. I don't see a TV in this house, house, house, >> you know. >> you know. >> you know. >> Yeah. I honestly I thought I would crush >> Yeah. I honestly I thought I would crush >> Yeah. I honestly I thought I would crush it. Like there's no like you don't get a it. Like there's no like you don't get a it. Like there's no like you don't get a grade at the end. grade at the end. grade at the end. >> Yeah. If anybody's if anybody's going to >> Yeah. If anybody's if anybody's going to >> Yeah. If anybody's if anybody's going to this is not like this is not like this is not like >> it'll be you. >> it'll be you. >> it'll be you. >> This was a few years ago. Like I'd been >> This was a few years ago. Like I'd been >> This was a few years ago. Like I'd been teaching on the spiritual discipline of teaching on the spiritual discipline of teaching on the spiritual discipline of solitude and silence for years. I've solitude and silence for years. I've solitude and silence for years. I've been practicing contemplative prayer.

been practicing contemplative prayer. been practicing contemplative prayer. I'm an introvert. I'm, you know, fairly I'm an introvert. I'm, you know, fairly I'm an introvert. I'm, you know, fairly ly in my approach to technology. I ly in my approach to technology. I ly in my approach to technology. I thought, man, this is just going to be thought, man, this is just going to be thought, man, this is just going to be great. I'll get like 21 days phone free. great. I'll get like 21 days phone free. great. I'll get like 21 days phone free. It'll reset my neurobiology. I was so It'll reset my neurobiology. I was so It'll reset my neurobiology. I was so >> uh burned out from, you know, just shy >> uh burned out from, you know, just shy >> uh burned out from, you know, just shy of 20 years at uh Bridgetown Church. And of 20 years at uh Bridgetown Church. And of 20 years at uh Bridgetown Church. And it was a wonderful experience. But I was it was a wonderful experience. But I was it was a wonderful experience. But I was >> Yeah. But you're tired, man. Come on. >> Yeah. But you're tired, man. Come on. >> Yeah. But you're tired, man. Come on. You do 20 years anywhere. You do 20 years anywhere. You do 20 years anywhere. >> I was a level of tired that, you know, >> I was a level of tired that, you know, >> I was a level of tired that, you know, the pastoral thing I always say to the pastoral thing I always say to the pastoral thing I always say to pastors is it's not the years, it's the pastors is it's not the years, it's the pastors is it's not the years, it's the mileage, you know, [laughter] and it's mileage, you know, [laughter] and it's mileage, you know, [laughter] and it's like I was in my early 40s, but I felt like I was in my early 40s, but I felt like I was in my early 40s, but I felt like a old man. I was just bone deep like a old man. I was just bone deep like a old man. I was just bone deep tired. tired. tired. And you know what happens? But this was And you know what happens? But this was And you know what happens? But this was just a whole other level. So I thought I just a whole other level. So I thought I just a whole other level. So I thought I would do a really good job. I thought it would do a really good job. I thought it would do a really good job. I thought it would be a meaningful time. It was would be a meaningful time. It was would be a meaningful time. It was one of the top two or three most one of the top two or three most one of the top two or three most difficult moments of my entire life. difficult moments of my entire life. difficult moments of my entire life. >> It was brutal. And not in a way that >> It was brutal. And not in a way that >> It was brutal. And not in a way that like I'm like I'm like I'm uh uncomfortable to talk about.

uh uncomfortable to talk about. uh uncomfortable to talk about. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But you know, it's amazing what happens >> But you know, it's amazing what happens >> But you know, it's amazing what happens when you stop, when you get away from when you stop, when you get away from when you stop, when you get away from the noise, when you follow Jesus into the noise, when you follow Jesus into the noise, when you follow Jesus into the quiet. A lot of different things the quiet. A lot of different things the quiet. A lot of different things happen. And you're not in control happen. And you're not in control happen. And you're not in control really, which is part of the gift and really, which is part of the gift and really, which is part of the gift and the challenge of the challenge of the challenge of >> uh that space, the desert, but the >> uh that space, the desert, but the >> uh that space, the desert, but the things that you have been running away things that you have been running away things that you have been running away from all catch up to you. It's what like from all catch up to you. It's what like from all catch up to you. It's what like pastors don't realize when they look pastors don't realize when they look pastors don't realize when they look forward to sbatical and they think it's forward to sbatical and they think it's forward to sbatical and they think it's just going to be like a long vacation. just going to be like a long vacation. just going to be like a long vacation. I'm like, [laughter] I'm like, [laughter] I'm like, [laughter] >> well, >> well, >> well, >> so these are all your suppressed >> so these are all your suppressed >> so these are all your suppressed thoughts, all your suppressed emotions, thoughts, all your suppressed emotions, thoughts, all your suppressed emotions, and you've got no escape. like there is and you've got no escape. like there is and you've got no escape. like there is no distraction, no distraction, no distraction, >> nothing to mediate you from your pain. >> nothing to mediate you from your pain. >> nothing to mediate you from your pain. >> And I just realized how much of my life >> And I just realized how much of my life >> And I just realized how much of my life is like pain avoidance. Mhm. is like pain avoidance. Mhm. is like pain avoidance. Mhm. >> And I'm not even some like anagram >> And I'm not even some like anagram >> And I'm not even some like anagram seven, but just how I've developed even seven, but just how I've developed even seven, but just how I've developed even in solitude like I've done a bunch of in solitude like I've done a bunch of in solitude like I've done a bunch of research since then writing a book on research since then writing a book on research since then writing a book on the quiet and you know when social the quiet and you know when social the quiet and you know when social scientists research solitude they have scientists research solitude they have scientists research solitude they have and its effect on the human brain and and its effect on the human brain and and its effect on the human brain and body they have to distinguish between body they have to distinguish between body they have to distinguish between solitude and aloneeness.

solitude and aloneeness. solitude and aloneeness. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um because you can be alone but not meet >> Um because you can be alone but not meet >> Um because you can be alone but not meet the criteria for solitude. For example, the criteria for solitude. For example, the criteria for solitude. For example, I can be sitting in this room. You can't I can be sitting in this room. You can't I can be sitting in this room. You can't see this on this podcast, but it's a see this on this podcast, but it's a see this on this podcast, but it's a beautiful view of the mountains. beautiful view of the mountains. beautiful view of the mountains. >> It is. >> It is. >> It is. >> I can be totally alone in this room and >> I can be totally alone in this room and >> I can be totally alone in this room and I can be texting or writing a book or I can be texting or writing a book or I can be texting or writing a book or reading a book or reading the news or reading a book or reading the news or reading a book or reading the news or whatever I want to do, folding laundry, whatever I want to do, folding laundry, whatever I want to do, folding laundry, cooking dinner. I'm alone, but I'm not cooking dinner. I'm alone, but I'm not cooking dinner. I'm alone, but I'm not in solitude. I'm still distracting in solitude. I'm still distracting in solitude. I'm still distracting myself. It might not be through social myself. It might not be through social myself. It might not be through social media. It might be through making media. It might be through making media. It might be through making sourdough bread or reading Wendel Berry, sourdough bread or reading Wendel Berry, sourdough bread or reading Wendel Berry, but I'm still distracting myself. or but I'm still distracting myself. or but I'm still distracting myself. or reading the Bible, but I'm still reading the Bible, but I'm still reading the Bible, but I'm still distracting myself at some level. distracting myself at some level. distracting myself at some level. >> And you know, in true solitude, one >> And you know, in true solitude, one >> And you know, in true solitude, one interesting piece of research I found, interesting piece of research I found, interesting piece of research I found, cuz a lot of people will write me off cuz a lot of people will write me off cuz a lot of people will write me off as, well, you're an introvert, so that's as, well, you're an introvert, so that's as, well, you're an introvert, so that's the thing for you. the thing for you. the thing for you. >> And uh, one fascinating thing I found is >> And uh, one fascinating thing I found is >> And uh, one fascinating thing I found is when you distinguish between solitude when you distinguish between solitude when you distinguish between solitude and aloneeness, introverts have no and aloneeness, introverts have no and aloneeness, introverts have no higher enjoyment of or preference for higher enjoyment of or preference for higher enjoyment of or preference for solitude than extroverts.

solitude than extroverts. solitude than extroverts. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> It's an equal playing field. And I >> It's an equal playing field. And I >> It's an equal playing field. And I really really really >> So is it the presence of people then >> So is it the presence of people then >> So is it the presence of people then that sort of is the difference? that sort of is the difference? that sort of is the difference? >> No, the presence the difference between >> No, the presence the difference between >> No, the presence the difference between solitude and aloneeness is the absence solitude and aloneeness is the absence solitude and aloneeness is the absence of distraction. of distraction. of distraction. >> So uh Newport actually Kell Newport uh >> So uh Newport actually Kell Newport uh >> So uh Newport actually Kell Newport uh in a secular book his book on digital in a secular book his book on digital in a secular book his book on digital minimalism has one of the best minimalism has one of the best minimalism has one of the best definitions I've found of solitude. I definitions I've found of solitude. I definitions I've found of solitude. I used it in my book but he defines used it in my book but he defines used it in my book but he defines solitude as the absence of any other solitude as the absence of any other solitude as the absence of any other inputs. inputs. inputs. Uh just in his mind it's not working Uh just in his mind it's not working Uh just in his mind it's not working from a Christian spirituality. um though from a Christian spirituality. um though from a Christian spirituality. um though I think you may be a Christian but it's I think you may be a Christian but it's I think you may be a Christian but it's just you go into solitude and there's no just you go into solitude and there's no just you go into solitude and there's no other books there's no other minds there other books there's no other minds there other books there's no other minds there it's just your mind is in solitude so I it's just your mind is in solitude so I it's just your mind is in solitude so I think from a Christian discipline think from a Christian discipline think from a Christian discipline perspective it would be you're there perspective it would be you're there perspective it would be you're there with Christ and his mind and the Holy with Christ and his mind and the Holy with Christ and his mind and the Holy Spirit in your mind and imagination and Spirit in your mind and imagination and Spirit in your mind and imagination and your own heart and what's coming but no your own heart and what's coming but no your own heart and what's coming but no other so what I realized was for years other so what I realized was for years other so what I realized was for years I'd been quote practicing silence and I'd been quote practicing silence and I'd been quote practicing silence and solitude and stillness but really it was solitude and stillness but really it was solitude and stillness but really it was more like time for an introverted pastor more like time for an introverted pastor more like time for an introverted pastor to go work it was Like I would go to go work it was Like I would go to go work it was Like I would go through with a bag of props. I would through with a bag of props. I would through with a bag of props. I would come into solitude with like a bag of come into solitude with like a bag of come into solitude with like a bag of good books. I would read like two books good books. I would read like two books good books. I would read like two books a day and I would come with like my a day and I would come with like my a day and I would come with like my calendar to plan. I bring my laptop and calendar to plan. I bring my laptop and calendar to plan. I bring my laptop and I no Wi-Fi. I'd be like very happy to go I no Wi-Fi. I'd be like very happy to go I no Wi-Fi. I'd be like very happy to go offline. Like again, I'm great with offline. Like again, I'm great with offline. Like again, I'm great with that. But I would like work and I would that. But I would like work and I would that. But I would like work and I would write and I would calendar plan and I write and I would calendar plan and I write and I would calendar plan and I would make decisions and I bring a would make decisions and I bring a would make decisions and I bring a bottle of red wine when I'm in the mood, bottle of red wine when I'm in the mood, bottle of red wine when I'm in the mood, you know?

you know? you know? >> And I realized >> And I realized >> And I realized >> that's not solitude. That's like alone >> that's not solitude. That's like alone >> that's not solitude. That's like alone time for an introvert to go do creative time for an introvert to go do creative time for an introvert to go do creative work. That's deep work. That's really work. That's deep work. That's really work. That's deep work. That's really beautiful. But that's not true solitude, beautiful. But that's not true solitude, beautiful. But that's not true solitude, which is literally I would never just which is literally I would never just which is literally I would never just like go to a quiet place and just sit like go to a quiet place and just sit like go to a quiet place and just sit there before God and let whatever comes there before God and let whatever comes there before God and let whatever comes up come up. I mean, that's terrifying. up come up. I mean, that's terrifying. up come up. I mean, that's terrifying. And so I did that for the first time. And so I did that for the first time. And so I did that for the first time. It's profoundly changed how I I try to It's profoundly changed how I I try to It's profoundly changed how I I try to practice as much as I can. solitude and practice as much as I can. solitude and practice as much as I can. solitude and it's amazing how it has profoundly it's amazing how it has profoundly it's amazing how it has profoundly changed. I now go in with no books. changed. I now go in with no books. changed. I now go in with no books. There's a place in Big Su I go to There's a place in Big Su I go to There's a place in Big Su I go to multiple times a year. multiple times a year. multiple times a year. >> I try to go in with no books, just >> I try to go in with no books, just >> I try to go in with no books, just literally my Bible, my journal, and my literally my Bible, my journal, and my literally my Bible, my journal, and my heart and just okay, God, what do you heart and just okay, God, what do you heart and just okay, God, what do you have? have? have? >> But yeah, so much I was just I was ripe >> But yeah, so much I was just I was ripe >> But yeah, so much I was just I was ripe for it, too. You know, just right kind for it, too. You know, just right kind for it, too. You know, just right kind of that seam between the long run of of that seam between the long run of of that seam between the long run of life. There's a lot that caught up to life. There's a lot that caught up to life. There's a lot that caught up to me.

me. me. >> This episode is brought to you by my >> This episode is brought to you by my >> This episode is brought to you by my 2026 church trends. So, if you're 2026 church trends. So, if you're 2026 church trends. So, if you're enjoying this episode, I think you're enjoying this episode, I think you're enjoying this episode, I think you're going to love my annual church trends going to love my annual church trends going to love my annual church trends report. For this year, I've identified report. For this year, I've identified report. For this year, I've identified seven disruptive trends that are shaping seven disruptive trends that are shaping seven disruptive trends that are shaping the future of the church. So, when you the future of the church. So, when you the future of the church. So, when you dig into the report, you're going to see dig into the report, you're going to see dig into the report, you're going to see Gen Z's surprising surge in church Gen Z's surprising surge in church Gen Z's surprising surge in church attendance. We'll quantify it. That's attendance. We'll quantify it. That's attendance. We'll quantify it. That's something a lot of us didn't expect, something a lot of us didn't expect, something a lot of us didn't expect, including me. There's a new boldness and including me. There's a new boldness and including me. There's a new boldness and evangelism that's starting to emerge evangelism that's starting to emerge evangelism that's starting to emerge that you probably need to pay attention that you probably need to pay attention that you probably need to pay attention to. Algorithms are quietly taking to. Algorithms are quietly taking to. Algorithms are quietly taking control of disciplehip. And guess what? control of disciplehip. And guess what? control of disciplehip. And guess what? As a church leader, you're paying the As a church leader, you're paying the As a church leader, you're paying the price. And maybe most concerning of all, price. And maybe most concerning of all, price. And maybe most concerning of all, most churches still aren't ready for the most churches still aren't ready for the most churches still aren't ready for the AI revolution. And that's already AI revolution. And that's already AI revolution. And that's already reshaping leadership ministry in the reshaping leadership ministry in the reshaping leadership ministry in the world. So those are a few of the trends world. So those are a few of the trends world. So those are a few of the trends that I am unpacking this year. The that I am unpacking this year. The that I am unpacking this year. The trends are backed by data, much of which trends are backed by data, much of which trends are backed by data, much of which is collected by Bara, and I share my is collected by Bara, and I share my is collected by Bara, and I share my thoughts on why it's important for you thoughts on why it's important for you thoughts on why it's important for you and what you can do about it. So, if you and what you can do about it. So, if you and what you can do about it. So, if you want access to the report, head on over want access to the report, head on over want access to the report, head on over to 2026urch trends.com for free access to 2026urch trends.com for free access to 2026urch trends.com for free access or simply click the link in the or simply click the link in the or simply click the link in the description of this episode. I'll send description of this episode. I'll send description of this episode. I'll send you a copy right away and you'll be in you a copy right away and you'll be in you a copy right away and you'll be in the loop for everything 2026 church the loop for everything 2026 church the loop for everything 2026 church trends related. Again, it's all free by trends related. Again, it's all free by trends related. Again, it's all free by clicking the link of this description or clicking the link of this description or clicking the link of this description or by visiting 2026 churchtrends.com.

by visiting 2026 churchtrends.com. by visiting 2026 churchtrends.com. This episode is brought to you by Church This episode is brought to you by Church This episode is brought to you by Church Salary. One of the heaviest Salary. One of the heaviest Salary. One of the heaviest responsibilities church leaders carry is responsibilities church leaders carry is responsibilities church leaders carry is taking care of your team, right? You taking care of your team, right? You taking care of your team, right? You want to be fair. You want to be want to be fair. You want to be want to be fair. You want to be transparent. You want to do the right transparent. You want to do the right transparent. You want to do the right thing. But the question I hear all the thing. But the question I hear all the thing. But the question I hear all the time is, well, how do we actually know time is, well, how do we actually know time is, well, how do we actually know what fair pay looks like? And that's why what fair pay looks like? And that's why what fair pay looks like? And that's why I want to tell you about church salary. I want to tell you about church salary. I want to tell you about church salary. For years, pastors and church boards For years, pastors and church boards For years, pastors and church boards have been forced to guess or rely on have been forced to guess or rely on have been forced to guess or rely on outdated info when it comes to outdated info when it comes to outdated info when it comes to compensation. Church Salary was built to compensation. Church Salary was built to compensation. Church Salary was built to change that, and they've just launched change that, and they've just launched change that, and they've just launched Church Salary 3.0, a completely updated Church Salary 3.0, a completely updated Church Salary 3.0, a completely updated tool designed specifically for churches. tool designed specifically for churches. tool designed specifically for churches. It helps answer real questions like, are It helps answer real questions like, are It helps answer real questions like, are we paying our staff fairly? How should we paying our staff fairly? How should we paying our staff fairly? How should the cost of living and education and the cost of living and education and the cost of living and education and experience factor in? And it uses real experience factor in? And it uses real experience factor in? And it uses real data based on real employees, not data based on real employees, not data based on real employees, not assumptions. So if you want easy assumptions. So if you want easy assumptions. So if you want easy databacked ways to know what fair pay databacked ways to know what fair pay databacked ways to know what fair pay looks like for your church team or even looks like for your church team or even looks like for your church team or even yourself, head to church yourself, head to church yourself, head to church salary.com/carry salary.com/carry salary.com/carry and start for free today. That's church and start for free today. That's church and start for free today. That's church dot That's church salary.com/carry.

dot That's church salary.com/carry. dot That's church salary.com/carry. That's c a r e y. You know, I'm That's c a r e y. You know, I'm That's c a r e y. You know, I'm wondering what happened to the passage wondering what happened to the passage wondering what happened to the passage of time. Sometimes we're looking it's of time. Sometimes we're looking it's of time. Sometimes we're looking it's like, "Oh, I can't believe it's four like, "Oh, I can't believe it's four like, "Oh, I can't believe it's four o'clock, right? How did how did that o'clock, right? How did how did that o'clock, right? How did how did that happen? What happened to the past?" happen? What happened to the past?" happen? What happened to the past?" >> Whatever you can imagine, it was even >> Whatever you can imagine, it was even >> Whatever you can imagine, it was even worse. It [laughter] was just like I worse. It [laughter] was just like I worse. It [laughter] was just like I just remember like, you know, you get just remember like, you know, you get just remember like, you know, you get done with the therapy, it's like 7:30 in done with the therapy, it's like 7:30 in done with the therapy, it's like 7:30 in the morning, still pitch black outside the morning, still pitch black outside the morning, still pitch black outside cuz it was winter. And then, you know, I cuz it was winter. And then, you know, I cuz it was winter. And then, you know, I go, he would give me like a little go, he would give me like a little go, he would give me like a little exercise to do every day. Sometimes like exercise to do every day. Sometimes like exercise to do every day. Sometimes like kind of zany stuff. And then you journal kind of zany stuff. And then you journal kind of zany stuff. And then you journal every day. And then it's like, okay, every day. And then it's like, okay, every day. And then it's like, okay, it's like 11 in the morning. [laughter] it's like 11 in the morning. [laughter] it's like 11 in the morning. [laughter] And then I'd go for a long walk. And And then I'd go for a long walk. And And then I'd go for a long walk. And then I'd like cook myself some lunch, then I'd like cook myself some lunch, then I'd like cook myself some lunch, clean it up extra good. And then it's clean it up extra good. And then it's clean it up extra good. And then it's like 1 and you're just like, what like 1 and you're just like, what like 1 and you're just like, what [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] what do I do? You know, day after day it what do I do? You know, day after day it what do I do? You know, day after day it was it was uh I can laugh about it now, was it was uh I can laugh about it now, was it was uh I can laugh about it now, but it was excruciating. but it was excruciating. but it was excruciating. >> Yeah. What what makes it hard when you I >> Yeah. What what makes it hard when you I >> Yeah. What what makes it hard when you I don't I doubt that there's anybody don't I doubt that there's anybody don't I doubt that there's anybody watching this podcast who has had that watching this podcast who has had that watching this podcast who has had that experience where for 21 days there's experience where for 21 days there's experience where for 21 days there's literally nothing to do and no inputs, literally nothing to do and no inputs, literally nothing to do and no inputs, no distractions. So what what happens?

no distractions. So what what happens? no distractions. So what what happens? It's almost like a detox, right? Except It's almost like a detox, right? Except It's almost like a detox, right? Except you're not you're not you're not >> curing yourself from an Well, I guess >> curing yourself from an Well, I guess >> curing yourself from an Well, I guess you are curing yourself from an you are curing yourself from an you are curing yourself from an addiction of some kind. I'm sure there addiction of some kind. I'm sure there addiction of some kind. I'm sure there is absolutely just at a neuro is absolutely just at a neuro is absolutely just at a neuro physiological level there is like a physiological level there is like a physiological level there is like a stimulation detox that you have to go stimulation detox that you have to go stimulation detox that you have to go through and the withdrawal is painful through and the withdrawal is painful through and the withdrawal is painful and I do think you know now with that on and I do think you know now with that on and I do think you know now with that on my radar my radar my radar and life doesn't always cooperate but and life doesn't always cooperate but and life doesn't always cooperate but when I am moving into a longer time of when I am moving into a longer time of when I am moving into a longer time of solitude not just my morning time or solitude not just my morning time or solitude not just my morning time or Sabbath time but a a retreat Sabbath time but a a retreat Sabbath time but a a retreat which I try to do as as often as I can which I try to do as as often as I can which I try to do as as often as I can it's difficult in my stage of life but I it's difficult in my stage of life but I it's difficult in my stage of life but I try to do it as often as I can. I do try try to do it as often as I can. I do try try to do it as often as I can. I do try to like ramp down my use of technology to like ramp down my use of technology to like ramp down my use of technology and even even the stimulation of and even even the stimulation of and even even the stimulation of meetings and conversations with lovely meetings and conversations with lovely meetings and conversations with lovely thought partners like you. Um because thought partners like you. Um because thought partners like you. Um because you know Cassian the desert father in you know Cassian the desert father in you know Cassian the desert father in the 4th century essenti they said how the 4th century essenti they said how the 4th century essenti they said how you are outside of prayer is how you are you are outside of prayer is how you are you are outside of prayer is how you are inside of prayer. So, you can't just be inside of prayer. So, you can't just be inside of prayer. So, you can't just be like on your phone constantly and taking like on your phone constantly and taking like on your phone constantly and taking 25 meetings a day and working insane 25 meetings a day and working insane 25 meetings a day and working insane hours and pushing your nervous system to hours and pushing your nervous system to hours and pushing your nervous system to the limit and then all of a sudden like the limit and then all of a sudden like the limit and then all of a sudden like wake up and before you go to work today wake up and before you go to work today wake up and before you go to work today have 20 minutes of like blissful have 20 minutes of like blissful have 20 minutes of like blissful contemplative prayer or go on retreat contemplative prayer or go on retreat contemplative prayer or go on retreat and just all of a sudden be caught up in and just all of a sudden be caught up in and just all of a sudden be caught up in union with the Trinity, you know? I union with the Trinity, you know? I union with the Trinity, you know? I mean, never say never. Can't is a strong mean, never say never. Can't is a strong mean, never say never. Can't is a strong word, but like it just your body doesn't word, but like it just your body doesn't word, but like it just your body doesn't work that way. And um and so I think

work that way. And um and so I think work that way. And um and so I think that's part of the gift of disciplines that's part of the gift of disciplines that's part of the gift of disciplines of abstinence, whether that's Sabbath or of abstinence, whether that's Sabbath or of abstinence, whether that's Sabbath or solitude, is they often expose our level solitude, is they often expose our level solitude, is they often expose our level of addiction. So some of it was just of addiction. So some of it was just of addiction. So some of it was just that. But I think the harder thing in that. But I think the harder thing in that. But I think the harder thing in particular as a leader and as a pastor particular as a leader and as a pastor particular as a leader and as a pastor was there was just nothing was there was just nothing was there was just nothing to mediate to mediate to mediate my awareness of my shadow and of all. my awareness of my shadow and of all. my awareness of my shadow and of all. For example, I had to face how much of For example, I had to face how much of For example, I had to face how much of my motivational structure as a pastor my motivational structure as a pastor my motivational structure as a pastor was deeply compromised for the first was deeply compromised for the first was deeply compromised for the first half of life. And again, I had this half of life. And again, I had this half of life. And again, I had this weird I've kind of started everything a weird I've kind of started everything a weird I've kind of started everything a bit too early. And so I'd done a lot by bit too early. And so I'd done a lot by bit too early. And so I'd done a lot by my early 40s. And so it was a real gift my early 40s. And so it was a real gift my early 40s. And so it was a real gift where I had the gift of the sbatical, where I had the gift of the sbatical, where I had the gift of the sbatical, but I wasn't about to retire. So funny but I wasn't about to retire. So funny but I wasn't about to retire. So funny when I was stepping down from when I was stepping down from when I was stepping down from Bridgetown, all these people, he had Bridgetown, all these people, he had Bridgetown, all these people, he had just no category for Yeah. just no category for Yeah. just no category for Yeah. >> You know, so many 401 >> You know, so many 401 >> You know, so many 401 >> stepping down. I wasn't like leaving to >> stepping down. I wasn't like leaving to >> stepping down. I wasn't like leaving to go to another church. I was like, you go to another church. I was like, you go to another church. I was like, you know, and so many people said to me, know, and so many people said to me, know, and so many people said to me, congratulations on your retirement, congratulations on your retirement, congratulations on your retirement, >> part of the fire movement. Good for you.

>> part of the fire movement. Good for you. >> part of the fire movement. Good for you. >> So many people said [laughter] that and >> So many people said [laughter] that and >> So many people said [laughter] that and I was like, listen, the books have done I was like, listen, the books have done I was like, listen, the books have done pretty well, but not that. pretty well, but not that. pretty well, but not that. >> What do you think? I've just got >> What do you think? I've just got >> What do you think? I've just got >> I sell a lot of books. >> I sell a lot of books. >> I sell a lot of books. >> Chill and garden. Uh yeah, I can only >> Chill and garden. Uh yeah, I can only >> Chill and garden. Uh yeah, I can only read so much Wendel Berry, you know, read so much Wendel Berry, you know, read so much Wendel Berry, you know, [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and uh so it was tricky, but I had this and uh so it was tricky, but I had this and uh so it was tricky, but I had this rare gift where God willing and we do rare gift where God willing and we do rare gift where God willing and we do not know the future and I could drop not know the future and I could drop not know the future and I could drop dead tomorrow. Um but I will God willing dead tomorrow. Um but I will God willing dead tomorrow. Um but I will God willing have several more decades of generative have several more decades of generative have several more decades of generative work in front of me. So I had this work in front of me. So I had this work in front of me. So I had this chance to really look back and I very chance to really look back and I very chance to really look back and I very intentionally applied a more critical intentionally applied a more critical intentionally applied a more critical lens to the first kind of half of my lens to the first kind of half of my lens to the first kind of half of my life in ministry. Not so much out of life in ministry. Not so much out of life in ministry. Not so much out of like a self flagagillation but more out like a self flagagillation but more out like a self flagagillation but more out of like hey what what are my regrets? of like hey what what are my regrets? of like hey what what are my regrets? Like I asked that question a lot. What Like I asked that question a lot. What Like I asked that question a lot. What are my regrets? And it wasn't like a are my regrets? And it wasn't like a are my regrets? And it wasn't like a self-hate thing. It was hey I hopefully self-hate thing. It was hey I hopefully self-hate thing. It was hey I hopefully have another 20 30 years ahead of me. I have another 20 30 years ahead of me. I have another 20 30 years ahead of me. I don't want to just keep repeating the don't want to just keep repeating the don't want to just keep repeating the same mistakes. And um I think looking same mistakes. And um I think looking same mistakes. And um I think looking carefully and analytically at my life carefully and analytically at my life carefully and analytically at my life with no emotional distractions, nothing with no emotional distractions, nothing with no emotional distractions, nothing to mediate me from my true broken self to mediate me from my true broken self to mediate me from my true broken self and without even the comfort of and without even the comfort of and without even the comfort of community. It was so I'll tell you this community. It was so I'll tell you this community. It was so I'll tell you this story. I asked uh Gandalf, the the story. I asked uh Gandalf, the the story. I asked uh Gandalf, the the clinical psychologist running this clinical psychologist running this clinical psychologist running this program like why no books? I was I was program like why no books? I was I was program like why no books? I was I was very perplexed by that because you know very perplexed by that because you know very perplexed by that because you know books play a formative my role in my books play a formative my role in my books play a formative my role in my life since a young age like I just I

life since a young age like I just I life since a young age like I just I love like I love the some writers just love like I love the some writers just love like I love the some writers just write cuz there's a book contract where write cuz there's a book contract where write cuz there's a book contract where like I am obsessed I read constantly all like I am obsessed I read constantly all like I am obsessed I read constantly all different genres I love to go to different genres I love to go to different genres I love to go to bookstores I love the smell of a book I bookstores I love the smell of a book I bookstores I love the smell of a book I want to read 90% of every book I ever want to read 90% of every book I ever want to read 90% of every book I ever see and uh I just I love the written see and uh I just I love the written see and uh I just I love the written word I I love it and uh books have word I I love it and uh books have word I I love it and uh books have played a key role in my formation played a key role in my formation played a key role in my formation intellectually, spiritually. They've intellectually, spiritually. They've intellectually, spiritually. They've imprinted so deeply in my mind. It's imprinted so deeply in my mind. It's imprinted so deeply in my mind. It's been a chance to be mentored by people been a chance to be mentored by people been a chance to be mentored by people that I never could have gotten access that I never could have gotten access that I never could have gotten access to. And so I said like, why why no to. And so I said like, why why no to. And so I said like, why why no books? And he said, books? And he said, books? And he said, >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> um, this experience was designed to >> um, this experience was designed to >> um, this experience was designed to recreate the experience of Jesus in the recreate the experience of Jesus in the recreate the experience of Jesus in the desert, Moses in the desert, Elijah in desert, Moses in the desert, Elijah in desert, Moses in the desert, Elijah in the desert, all the great ones, he said, the desert, all the great ones, he said, the desert, all the great ones, he said, went into the desert. And then he said went into the desert. And then he said went into the desert. And then he said this line that has never left me. He this line that has never left me. He this line that has never left me. He said, "The desert teaches by taking said, "The desert teaches by taking said, "The desert teaches by taking away." away." away." And I realized And I realized And I realized my paradigm in particular from an my paradigm in particular from an my paradigm in particular from an evangelical background for learning was evangelical background for learning was evangelical background for learning was all learning through addition.

all learning through addition. all learning through addition. >> So it was I'm going to listen to this >> So it was I'm going to listen to this >> So it was I'm going to listen to this podcast where he has an interview. I'm podcast where he has an interview. I'm podcast where he has an interview. I'm going to read this book. I'm going to going to read this book. I'm going to going to read this book. I'm going to listen to this sermon. I'm going to read listen to this sermon. I'm going to read listen to this sermon. I'm going to read scripture. I'm going to study the Bible. scripture. I'm going to study the Bible. scripture. I'm going to study the Bible. I'm going to Google this thing. I'm I'm going to Google this thing. I'm I'm going to Google this thing. I'm going to research this thing. It was all going to research this thing. It was all going to research this thing. It was all learning by addition. And there's very learning by addition. And there's very learning by addition. And there's very much a good and vital place for learning much a good and vital place for learning much a good and vital place for learning by addition. But what the desert or by addition. But what the desert or by addition. But what the desert or solitude and silence, if you want to solitude and silence, if you want to solitude and silence, if you want to call it that, it teaches by subtraction, call it that, it teaches by subtraction, call it that, it teaches by subtraction, by pruning you and purging you and by pruning you and purging you and by pruning you and purging you and stripping away all of your props to stripping away all of your props to stripping away all of your props to where it's like all of the lights go on where it's like all of the lights go on where it's like all of the lights go on and it's like you went from candle lit and it's like you went from candle lit and it's like you went from candle lit mood ambiance to like fluorescent mood ambiance to like fluorescent mood ambiance to like fluorescent lighting in the bright of day [laughter] lighting in the bright of day [laughter] lighting in the bright of day [laughter] and you're like, "Holy crap, I'm not I'm and you're like, "Holy crap, I'm not I'm and you're like, "Holy crap, I'm not I'm not as attractive as I wanted to believe not as attractive as I wanted to believe not as attractive as I wanted to believe [laughter] I was, you know, and um and [laughter] I was, you know, and um and [laughter] I was, you know, and um and that is a profound gift. You meet God's that is a profound gift. You meet God's that is a profound gift. You meet God's love at the same place you meet your love at the same place you meet your love at the same place you meet your vulnerability. vulnerability. vulnerability. >> You mentioned regrets.

>> You mentioned regrets. >> You mentioned regrets. >> What were some regrets you identified? >> What were some regrets you identified? >> What were some regrets you identified? >> Man, probably just the pedestrian kind. >> Man, probably just the pedestrian kind. >> Man, probably just the pedestrian kind. Uh you know, the Elizabeth Kubler Ross Uh you know, the Elizabeth Kubler Ross Uh you know, the Elizabeth Kubler Ross number one regret of the dying is I wish number one regret of the dying is I wish number one regret of the dying is I wish I had not worked so hard. I had not worked so hard. I had not worked so hard. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, I wish I had not worked so hard. I I wish I had not worked so hard. I I wish I had not worked so hard. I >> How did you get that moment of clarity? >> How did you get that moment of clarity? >> How did you get that moment of clarity? Because I've heard that and I'm like Because I've heard that and I'm like Because I've heard that and I'm like looking back on it. Yeah, in my 30s I looking back on it. Yeah, in my 30s I looking back on it. Yeah, in my 30s I wish I hadn't worked this hard, but I wish I hadn't worked this hard, but I wish I hadn't worked this hard, but I feel like I've got a decent balance now. feel like I've got a decent balance now. feel like I've got a decent balance now. And I don't know if I'm 80, who knows And I don't know if I'm 80, who knows And I don't know if I'm 80, who knows how many years you have and I'm looking how many years you have and I'm looking how many years you have and I'm looking back on my life, maybe I'll wish I back on my life, maybe I'll wish I back on my life, maybe I'll wish I hadn't worked this hard. But how what hadn't worked this hard. But how what hadn't worked this hard. But how what what what made you say that? what what made you say that? what what made you say that? I think the number one thing would be I think the number one thing would be I think the number one thing would be realizing the wounding it caused to my realizing the wounding it caused to my realizing the wounding it caused to my family. family. family. So, I don't have quite the right or to So, I don't have quite the right or to So, I don't have quite the right or to rephrase, I don't think I have the rephrase, I don't think I have the rephrase, I don't think I have the optimal personality optimal personality optimal personality to be the lead pastor of a Protestant to be the lead pastor of a Protestant to be the lead pastor of a Protestant type of large church. I'm a little bit type of large church. I'm a little bit type of large church. I'm a little bit too introverted or a lot too introverted too introverted or a lot too introverted too introverted or a lot too introverted and um and um and um I don't have the capacity for activity I don't have the capacity for activity I don't have the capacity for activity that I think is um required or at least that I think is um required or at least that I think is um required or at least very helpful. And um what I the the very helpful. And um what I the the very helpful. And um what I the the challenge I face is I have challenge I face is I have challenge I face is I have uh probably with no false modesty I uh probably with no false modesty I uh probably with no false modesty I probably have a much higher than average

probably have a much higher than average probably have a much higher than average capacity to get crap done. Like I'm a capacity to get crap done. Like I'm a capacity to get crap done. Like I'm a task oriented personality. task oriented personality. task oriented personality. >> Um I can get a lot. >> Um I can get a lot. >> Um I can get a lot. >> So you can crank >> So you can crank >> So you can crank >> done. I can crank. I'm a hard worker. >> done. I can crank. I'm a hard worker. >> done. I can crank. I'm a hard worker. But I actually don't probably have a But I actually don't probably have a But I actually don't probably have a lower than average capacity emotionally. lower than average capacity emotionally. lower than average capacity emotionally. So what I get is I have this glass So what I get is I have this glass So what I get is I have this glass ceiling and it's like every single day ceiling and it's like every single day ceiling and it's like every single day it is a temptation to blow through this it is a temptation to blow through this it is a temptation to blow through this glass ceiling and the glass ceiling is glass ceiling and the glass ceiling is glass ceiling and the glass ceiling is basically this is what I can do and get basically this is what I can do and get basically this is what I can do and get off work and be a pleasant dad and off work and be a pleasant dad and off work and be a pleasant dad and husband and this is what I can get done husband and this is what I can get done husband and this is what I can get done [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> and there is a huge gap and the pastoral >> and there is a huge gap and the pastoral >> and there is a huge gap and the pastoral role you know and it's a bit better now role you know and it's a bit better now role you know and it's a bit better now but still startup leadership but still startup leadership but still startup leadership self-employed like those have their own self-employed like those have their own self-employed like those have their own similar challenges as you would know. similar challenges as you would know. similar challenges as you would know. It's really hard for personalities. Like It's really hard for personalities. Like It's really hard for personalities. Like I think a lot of people that are drawn I think a lot of people that are drawn I think a lot of people that are drawn to pastoral work either they're drawn to to pastoral work either they're drawn to to pastoral work either they're drawn to people and they may have a propensity people and they may have a propensity people and they may have a propensity for people pleasing especially like for people pleasing especially like for people pleasing especially like traditional pastor personalities or traditional pastor personalities or traditional pastor personalities or people like me teacher types they might people like me teacher types they might people like me teacher types they might have like a really a draw toward a have like a really a draw toward a have like a really a draw toward a moralism even in a healthy version of moralism even in a healthy version of moralism even in a healthy version of moralism. Like I'm deeply drawn to moralism. Like I'm deeply drawn to moralism. Like I'm deeply drawn to virtue and goodness and I don't think virtue and goodness and I don't think virtue and goodness and I don't think that's all bad. There's certainly a that's all bad. There's certainly a that's all bad. There's certainly a shadow to it. But the challenge is like shadow to it. But the challenge is like shadow to it. But the challenge is like you have uh demands coming at your time you have uh demands coming at your time you have uh demands coming at your time that are a black hole. You could never

that are a black hole. You could never that are a black hole. You could never ever possibly satiate all the demands. ever possibly satiate all the demands. ever possibly satiate all the demands. And if your pension, your weak point is And if your pension, your weak point is And if your pension, your weak point is like you want, you'll sacrifice yourself like you want, you'll sacrifice yourself like you want, you'll sacrifice yourself to please people and make people happy to please people and make people happy to please people and make people happy with you, or in my case, you'll with you, or in my case, you'll with you, or in my case, you'll sacrifice yourself to try to be the good sacrifice yourself to try to be the good sacrifice yourself to try to be the good person or the good pastor or you know, person or the good pastor or you know, person or the good pastor or you know, cuz everything's moralized when you're a cuz everything's moralized when you're a cuz everything's moralized when you're a pastor. Somebody says, "Hey, can we have pastor. Somebody says, "Hey, can we have pastor. Somebody says, "Hey, can we have coffee this week?" And you have no time coffee this week?" And you have no time coffee this week?" And you have no time to have coffee this week. to have coffee this week. to have coffee this week. >> If you say no, it's not like, "Oh, he >> If you say no, it's not like, "Oh, he >> If you say no, it's not like, "Oh, he said no." It's like he's a bad pastor said no." It's like he's a bad pastor said no." It's like he's a bad pastor and therefore a bad Christian. And like and therefore a bad Christian. And like and therefore a bad Christian. And like imagine that if you're just an introvert imagine that if you're just an introvert imagine that if you're just an introvert and and nobody else sees your life. They and and nobody else sees your life. They and and nobody else sees your life. They just see your their angle on your life. just see your their angle on your life. just see your their angle on your life. >> And um it is so hard to resist that. And >> And um it is so hard to resist that. And >> And um it is so hard to resist that. And so, you know, you say yes too much. And so, you know, you say yes too much. And so, you know, you say yes too much. And and and I think part of the challenge of and and I think part of the challenge of and and I think part of the challenge of that retreat for me was when you're in that retreat for me was when you're in that retreat for me was when you're in your 20s and your 30s, you can blame the your 20s and your 30s, you can blame the your 20s and your 30s, you can blame the overwork and the exhaustion on the overwork and the exhaustion on the overwork and the exhaustion on the church. church. church. This is a black hole of need. this This is a black hole of need. this This is a black hole of need. this doesn't go away. It's insatiable. We doesn't go away. It's insatiable. We doesn't go away. It's insatiable. We don't have enough staff. We just need to don't have enough staff. We just need to don't have enough staff. We just need to get to the next season. We need to get get to the next season. We need to get get to the next season. We need to get through this campaign. We are dealing through this campaign. We are dealing through this campaign. We are dealing with drama right now. And then you get with drama right now. And then you get with drama right now. And then you get into your 40s and you're like, wait, no, into your 40s and you're like, wait, no, into your 40s and you're like, wait, no, this just is church. Like Scazero said this just is church. Like Scazero said this just is church. Like Scazero said that to me at one point. He's like, it's that to me at one point. He's like, it's that to me at one point. He's like, it's not that pastors deal with crisises, is not that pastors deal with crisises, is not that pastors deal with crisises, is that the job is to deal with crisis.

that the job is to deal with crisis. that the job is to deal with crisis. It's just like crisis after crisis after It's just like crisis after crisis after It's just like crisis after crisis after crisis after crisis. That's the job. crisis after crisis. That's the job. crisis after crisis. That's the job. >> And uh I don't know if I've said this to >> And uh I don't know if I've said this to >> And uh I don't know if I've said this to you before. I remember I was reading, you before. I remember I was reading, you before. I remember I was reading, this is not a political statement at this is not a political statement at this is not a political statement at all. I read wildly. I read I read tons all. I read wildly. I read I read tons all. I read wildly. I read I read tons of stuff I disagree with, but I was of stuff I disagree with, but I was of stuff I disagree with, but I was reading um Obama's memoir, which is so I reading um Obama's memoir, which is so I reading um Obama's memoir, which is so I love his mind. It was so well written. love his mind. It was so well written. love his mind. It was so well written. And he had this two bit like two-page And he had this two bit like two-page And he had this two bit like two-page bit on bit on bit on >> how 90% of the presidency is two things. >> how 90% of the presidency is two things. >> how 90% of the presidency is two things. One, it is dealing with whatever crisis One, it is dealing with whatever crisis One, it is dealing with whatever crisis came up that week. And two, it's dealing came up that week. And two, it's dealing came up that week. And two, it's dealing with problems that you inherited from with problems that you inherited from with problems that you inherited from your predecessor. And he said, "Only if your predecessor. And he said, "Only if your predecessor. And he said, "Only if you execute on the 90% you execute on the 90% you execute on the 90% extremely well do you get to spend 10% extremely well do you get to spend 10% extremely well do you get to spend 10% of your time doing what you actually got of your time doing what you actually got of your time doing what you actually got into politics to do in the first place." into politics to do in the first place." into politics to do in the first place." And I remember reading that thinking, And I remember reading that thinking, And I remember reading that thinking, "Holy cow, that's like what it's like to "Holy cow, that's like what it's like to "Holy cow, that's like what it's like to be a local church pastor." It's like 90% be a local church pastor." It's like 90% be a local church pastor." It's like 90% of your job is getting through Sunday of your job is getting through Sunday of your job is getting through Sunday >> and dealing with crisis. And only if you >> and dealing with crisis. And only if you >> and dealing with crisis. And only if you can do those two things and only can do those two things and only can do those two things and only extremely well do you even get the 10% extremely well do you even get the 10% extremely well do you even get the 10% of time to do what you actually of time to do what you actually of time to do what you actually >> this is what I'm called to do >> this is what I'm called to do >> this is what I'm called to do >> care about which for me would be >> care about which for me would be >> care about which for me would be formation and community you know and I formation and community you know and I formation and community you know and I was like oh my goodness and so I think was like oh my goodness and so I think was like oh my goodness and so I think getting into my 40s I was faced like I getting into my 40s I was faced like I getting into my 40s I was faced like I had no more good excuses for why I was had no more good excuses for why I was had no more good excuses for why I was overwork overwork overwork >> and uh >> and uh >> and uh I had no one to blame anymore.

I had no one to blame anymore. I had no one to blame anymore. >> Yeah. And I had to realize, okay, >> Yeah. And I had to realize, okay, >> Yeah. And I had to realize, okay, there's an internal thing in me. there's an internal thing in me. there's an internal thing in me. >> There's a drive. >> There's a drive. >> There's a drive. Um, a coach said to me recently very Um, a coach said to me recently very Um, a coach said to me recently very lovingly. He said, "You are addicted to lovingly. He said, "You are addicted to lovingly. He said, "You are addicted to opportunity." opportunity." opportunity." And it was just like right there. And it was just like right there. And it was just like right there. >> Yeah. And um, another mentor kind of >> Yeah. And um, another mentor kind of >> Yeah. And um, another mentor kind of person said to me recently, "Hey, if you person said to me recently, "Hey, if you person said to me recently, "Hey, if you do 10% of the things that are in your do 10% of the things that are in your do 10% of the things that are in your heart, that'd be a really good life." heart, that'd be a really good life." heart, that'd be a really good life." And he meant it as an encouragement. And And he meant it as an encouragement. And And he meant it as an encouragement. And I was like, "What? I have so many great I was like, "What? I have so many great I was like, "What? I have so many great ideas. 10%. That would be a failure of a ideas. 10%. That would be a failure of a ideas. 10%. That would be a failure of a life." And he said, "No, if you do 10% life." And he said, "No, if you do 10% life." And he said, "No, if you do 10% of your good ideas, that would be a of your good ideas, that would be a of your good ideas, that would be a great life." [laughter] great life." [laughter] great life." [laughter] >> And I >> And I >> And I don't I don't even know how to think don't I don't even know how to think don't I don't even know how to think that way. I'm going to do one of these that way. I'm going to do one of these that way. I'm going to do one of these 10 things that I'm passionate about. 10 things that I'm passionate about. 10 things that I'm passionate about. >> And so I just think, yeah, it was just I >> And so I just think, yeah, it was just I >> And so I just think, yeah, it was just I had to face reality, Carrie. And how had to face reality, Carrie. And how had to face reality, Carrie. And how much of my drivenness like the great much of my drivenness like the great much of my drivenness like the great challenge I I think there are few jobs challenge I I think there are few jobs challenge I I think there are few jobs like pastoral life or Christian like pastoral life or Christian like pastoral life or Christian leadership where it is easy easier and leadership where it is easy easier and leadership where it is easy easier and more dangerous to do the right thing for more dangerous to do the right thing for more dangerous to do the right thing for all the wrong reasons because you can all the wrong reasons because you can all the wrong reasons because you can spiritualize it in the same way that you spiritualize it in the same way that you spiritualize it in the same way that you know the world will rewardcoholism know the world will rewardcoholism know the world will rewardcoholism even if it's full-on pathological even if it's full-on pathological even if it's full-on pathological coping.

coping. coping. It will reward like certain addictions It will reward like certain addictions It will reward like certain addictions will put you on the street in downtown will put you on the street in downtown will put you on the street in downtown LA and other addictions will put you in LA and other addictions will put you in LA and other addictions will put you in a house in Malibu, but they're going to a house in Malibu, but they're going to a house in Malibu, but they're going to have the same effect on your have the same effect on your have the same effect on your relationship with your kids. relationship with your kids. relationship with your kids. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And the world will reward you for one >> And the world will reward you for one >> And the world will reward you for one and punish you for the other. And the and punish you for the other. And the and punish you for the other. And the church in a weird way will reward you church in a weird way will reward you church in a weird way will reward you for addiction to work, for addiction to work, for addiction to work, >> addiction to people pleasing, addiction >> addiction to people pleasing, addiction >> addiction to people pleasing, addiction to goodness, addiction to, you know, X, to goodness, addiction to, you know, X, to goodness, addiction to, you know, X, Y, and Z. Y, and Z. Y, and Z. >> And I just think I had to face that and >> And I just think I had to face that and >> And I just think I had to face that and it was really hard and and continues. I it was really hard and and continues. I it was really hard and and continues. I wish I could say like, man, and that was wish I could say like, man, and that was wish I could say like, man, and that was it. And now I'm done. And now I never it. And now I'm done. And now I never it. And now I'm done. And now I never overworked. [laughter] overworked. [laughter] overworked. [laughter] >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> not true. >> not true. >> not true. >> Not true. But I'm doing better. And I >> Not true. But I'm doing better. And I >> Not true. But I'm doing better. And I think that's the think that's the think that's the my um I have this extraordinary my um I have this extraordinary my um I have this extraordinary therapist and he said to me recently, I therapist and he said to me recently, I therapist and he said to me recently, I never use the word healed never use the word healed never use the word healed because it makes it sound like a because it makes it sound like a because it makes it sound like a oneanddone.

oneanddone. oneanddone. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Point in the journey. And he said, I >> Point in the journey. And he said, I >> Point in the journey. And he said, I like to talk about healing. like to talk about healing. like to talk about healing. So um from that paradigm, I'm not So um from that paradigm, I'm not So um from that paradigm, I'm not healed, but I'm healing. healed, but I'm healing. healed, but I'm healing. And I just think we don't think that way And I just think we don't think that way And I just think we don't think that way enough. You know, how do I make 10% enough. You know, how do I make 10% enough. You know, how do I make 10% progress and compound interest but progress and compound interest but progress and compound interest but applied to the formation of the soul? applied to the formation of the soul? applied to the formation of the soul? Um, how do I become the kind of person Um, how do I become the kind of person Um, how do I become the kind of person who 10 years from now, 20 years from who 10 years from now, 20 years from who 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now is quieter and now, 30 years from now is quieter and now, 30 years from now is quieter and more peaceful and still generative and more peaceful and still generative and more peaceful and still generative and hardworking and servant-hearted hardworking and servant-hearted hardworking and servant-hearted but unhurried but unhurried but unhurried and um and again the language of scarero and um and again the language of scarero and um and again the language of scarero is embracing the gift of limits but we is embracing the gift of limits but we is embracing the gift of limits but we just just just >> I just rebel against limits are not >> I just rebel against limits are not >> I just rebel against limits are not limits they are like a you know limits they are like a you know limits they are like a you know >> I mean they are a gift but I don't feel >> I mean they are a gift but I don't feel >> I mean they are a gift but I don't feel that way. This episode is brought to you that way. This episode is brought to you that way. This episode is brought to you by Studio C. So, one of the biggest by Studio C. So, one of the biggest by Studio C. So, one of the biggest questions pastors are asking right now questions pastors are asking right now questions pastors are asking right now is how do we support real spiritual is how do we support real spiritual is how do we support real spiritual formation without rushing people, formation without rushing people, formation without rushing people, without losing the personal touch, even without losing the personal touch, even without losing the personal touch, even as our church grows. So, if you want to as our church grows. So, if you want to as our church grows. So, if you want to pay attention to how churches are pay attention to how churches are pay attention to how churches are answering that question, check out answering that question, check out answering that question, check out StudioC. Their platform helps churches StudioC. Their platform helps churches StudioC. Their platform helps churches guide people intentionally, meeting guide people intentionally, meeting guide people intentionally, meeting individuals where they are, encouraging individuals where they are, encouraging individuals where they are, encouraging next steps at a pace that fits their next steps at a pace that fits their next steps at a pace that fits their season of life. Studio C works with the season of life. Studio C works with the season of life. Studio C works with the tools you already use to understand tools you already use to understand tools you already use to understand where people are on their spiritual where people are on their spiritual where people are on their spiritual journey. And then it enables you to journey. And then it enables you to journey. And then it enables you to deliver personal encouragement through

deliver personal encouragement through deliver personal encouragement through your mobile app, email, or text exactly your mobile app, email, or text exactly your mobile app, email, or text exactly when it's most helpful. If information when it's most helpful. If information when it's most helpful. If information is about helping people practice the way is about helping people practice the way is about helping people practice the way of Jesus over time, StudioC helps make of Jesus over time, StudioC helps make of Jesus over time, StudioC helps make that possible, even at scale. They've that possible, even at scale. They've that possible, even at scale. They've also created a short member engagement also created a short member engagement also created a short member engagement assessment to help leaders gain clarity assessment to help leaders gain clarity assessment to help leaders gain clarity on how well their church is supporting on how well their church is supporting on how well their church is supporting spiritual formation today. You can take spiritual formation today. You can take spiritual formation today. You can take it for free at the studioc.org/carry. it for free at the studioc.org/carry. it for free at the studioc.org/carry. That's the studio letterc.org/cy. I um [clears throat] I um [clears throat] I want to know what else you learned I want to know what else you learned I want to know what else you learned about yourself and about spiritual about yourself and about spiritual about yourself and about spiritual formation during those 21 days. You've formation during those 21 days. You've formation during those 21 days. You've done some writing about done some writing about done some writing about spiritual and and and I said to you, you spiritual and and and I said to you, you spiritual and and and I said to you, you know, if this comes out as a book, your know, if this comes out as a book, your know, if this comes out as a book, your current project, it's not supposed to be current project, it's not supposed to be current project, it's not supposed to be about prayer, but I found it really about prayer, but I found it really about prayer, but I found it really helpful about prayer because I've come helpful about prayer because I've come helpful about prayer because I've come 10 years post lead pastor to think, 10 years post lead pastor to think, 10 years post lead pastor to think, yeah, it's just not my gift. I pray yeah, it's just not my gift. I pray yeah, it's just not my gift. I pray every day. I have ADHD. I'm very every day. I have ADHD. I'm very every day. I have ADHD. I'm very distracted. I have all these competing distracted. I have all these competing distracted. I have all these competing thoughts and I'll interrupt my prayer thoughts and I'll interrupt my prayer thoughts and I'll interrupt my prayer time. And you go there, man. You go time. And you go there, man. You go time. And you go there, man. You go there and you're like, "No, this is there and you're like, "No, this is there and you're like, "No, this is actually prayer." So, I'd love for you actually prayer." So, I'd love for you actually prayer." So, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what you've to talk a little bit about what you've to talk a little bit about what you've learned about prayer, about spiritual learned about prayer, about spiritual learned about prayer, about spiritual warfare, how it operates, and what warfare, how it operates, and what warfare, how it operates, and what happens when you really get quiet.

happens when you really get quiet. happens when you really get quiet. Because I love quiet. I think I crave Because I love quiet. I think I crave Because I love quiet. I think I crave solitude. I think I've had it in solitude. I think I've had it in solitude. I think I've had it in moments, but then my monkey mind, as moments, but then my monkey mind, as moments, but then my monkey mind, as they say, gets moving and I feed it they say, gets moving and I feed it they say, gets moving and I feed it bananas and it gets louder. bananas and it gets louder. bananas and it gets louder. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Yeah. I I think we all believe the lie Yeah. I I think we all believe the lie Yeah. I I think we all believe the lie that it's just my brain that is a that it's just my brain that is a that it's just my brain that is a chaotic mess. chaotic mess. chaotic mess. >> Mine's a chaotic mess. >> Mine's a chaotic mess. >> Mine's a chaotic mess. >> And I think, you know, monkey mind comes >> And I think, you know, monkey mind comes >> And I think, you know, monkey mind comes from Zen Buddhism from Zen Buddhism from Zen Buddhism >> and you don't have to embrace Buddhism. >> and you don't have to embrace Buddhism. >> and you don't have to embrace Buddhism. >> But Nan did a similar thing. >> But Nan did a similar thing. >> But Nan did a similar thing. >> Yeah. now and learned a lot from >> Yeah. now and learned a lot from >> Yeah. now and learned a lot from Buddhist practice and meditation and Buddhist practice and meditation and Buddhist practice and meditation and arguably Buddhism was deeply shaped by arguably Buddhism was deeply shaped by arguably Buddhism was deeply shaped by uh Eastern Christians by the uh Eastern Christians by the uh Eastern Christians by the >> Yeah, you mentioned that 9th and 10th >> Yeah, you mentioned that 9th and 10th >> Yeah, you mentioned that 9th and 10th Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. >> So I mean that's why there's >> So I mean that's why there's >> So I mean that's why there's [clears throat] different branches of [clears throat] different branches of [clears throat] different branches of Buddhism and a lot of the more spiritual Buddhism and a lot of the more spiritual Buddhism and a lot of the more spiritual Buddhism of today is um was a response Buddhism of today is um was a response Buddhism of today is um was a response to or even a rejection of the Christian to or even a rejection of the Christian to or even a rejection of the Christian gospel. So again, I'm not a historian, gospel. So again, I'm not a historian, gospel. So again, I'm not a historian, but um now went deeper into that than I but um now went deeper into that than I but um now went deeper into that than I have. Again, you don't have to embrace have. Again, you don't have to embrace have. Again, you don't have to embrace Buddhism to uh appreciate the metaphor Buddhism to uh appreciate the metaphor Buddhism to uh appreciate the metaphor of, you know, when you go into prayer, of, you know, when you go into prayer, of, you know, when you go into prayer, you know, Nan would say it's like my you know, Nan would say it's like my you know, Nan would say it's like my brain is like monkeys in a banana tree, brain is like monkeys in a banana tree, brain is like monkeys in a banana tree, you know, and now just had this you know, and now just had this you know, and now just had this extraordinary ability to name extraordinary ability to name extraordinary ability to name >> the felt experience of the spiritual >> the felt experience of the spiritual >> the felt experience of the spiritual life. And so he would talk about going life. And so he would talk about going life. And so he would talk about going into prayer and he's like, I'm going into prayer and he's like, I'm going into prayer and he's like, I'm going there to encounter the trinity. And all there to encounter the trinity. And all there to encounter the trinity. And all of a sudden I wake up and I realize I've of a sudden I wake up and I realize I've of a sudden I wake up and I realize I've just been giving a long hostile speech just been giving a long hostile speech just been giving a long hostile speech to my enemy or imagining myself like on to my enemy or imagining myself like on to my enemy or imagining myself like on a stage winning awards and getting a CL.

a stage winning awards and getting a CL. a stage winning awards and getting a CL. This is prayer for Henry now like the This is prayer for Henry now like the This is prayer for Henry now like the great spiritual master. Prayer was great spiritual master. Prayer was great spiritual master. Prayer was sitting there imagining himself getting sitting there imagining himself getting sitting there imagining himself getting an award or lecturing some person and an award or lecturing some person and an award or lecturing some person and his enemies just miserably getting his enemies just miserably getting his enemies just miserably getting revenge. [laughter] revenge. [laughter] revenge. [laughter] >> This is what I should have said. >> This is what I should have said. >> This is what I should have said. >> Oh my gosh. And you know uh what's so >> Oh my gosh. And you know uh what's so >> Oh my gosh. And you know uh what's so helpful uh is reading like so helpful uh is reading like so helpful uh is reading like so there's lots of uh chatter in recent there's lots of uh chatter in recent there's lots of uh chatter in recent years uh about how uh we should read years uh about how uh we should read years uh about how uh we should read outside of the majority culture and read outside of the majority culture and read outside of the majority culture and read minority voices and female voices often minority voices and female voices often minority voices and female voices often and people from different perspectives. and people from different perspectives. and people from different perspectives. And I agree. One of the things that is And I agree. One of the things that is And I agree. One of the things that is sad to me is uh historical voices are sad to me is uh historical voices are sad to me is uh historical voices are never on that list. And first off, when never on that list. And first off, when never on that list. And first off, when you read ancient Christians, pretty much you read ancient Christians, pretty much you read ancient Christians, pretty much none of them are white. And they're none of them are white. And they're none of them are white. And they're certainly not out of our stream of the certainly not out of our stream of the certainly not out of our stream of the church. And it is so jarring. So I have church. And it is so jarring. So I have church. And it is so jarring. So I have spent um I think some people really spent um I think some people really spent um I think some people really misunderstand my journey the last couple misunderstand my journey the last couple misunderstand my journey the last couple of years because they try to map it onto of years because they try to map it onto of years because they try to map it onto the left right of American politics.

the left right of American politics. the left right of American politics. >> Set it straight. What has your journey? >> Set it straight. What has your journey? >> Set it straight. What has your journey? Well, I think right now we're seeing Well, I think right now we're seeing Well, I think right now we're seeing this political polarization thing, this political polarization thing, this political polarization thing, right? And so you see a lot of people right? And so you see a lot of people right? And so you see a lot of people drifting either to the right or the left drifting either to the right or the left drifting either to the right or the left into cultural compromise. into cultural compromise. into cultural compromise. >> The middle's disappeared. >> The middle's disappeared. >> The middle's disappeared. >> The middle is disappearing. And so I >> The middle is disappearing. And so I >> The middle is disappearing. And so I think some people So I have spent my think some people So I have spent my think some people So I have spent my whole life personal and pastoral in whole life personal and pastoral in whole life personal and pastoral in super secular progressive cultural super secular progressive cultural super secular progressive cultural context. So grew up in Silicon Valley, context. So grew up in Silicon Valley, context. So grew up in Silicon Valley, moved to urban Portland, and now we've moved to urban Portland, and now we've moved to urban Portland, and now we've come to the LA area. So all I've ever come to the LA area. So all I've ever come to the LA area. So all I've ever known is secular, post-Christian, known is secular, post-Christian, known is secular, post-Christian, overwhelmingly progressive, overwhelmingly progressive, overwhelmingly progressive, >> and I am not any of those things. But >> and I am not any of those things. But >> and I am not any of those things. But that's the cultural context. that's the cultural context. that's the cultural context. >> I read Love No Lies. Yeah. No, >> I read Love No Lies. Yeah. No, >> I read Love No Lies. Yeah. No, [laughter] I read that. In every room I [laughter] I read that. In every room I [laughter] I read that. In every room I enter, I am the most conservative person enter, I am the most conservative person enter, I am the most conservative person I know, right? In every room. But that's I know, right? In every room. But that's I know, right? In every room. But that's my missionary call. And so when I my missionary call. And so when I my missionary call. And so when I preach, when I teach, I'm attempting to preach, when I teach, I'm attempting to preach, when I teach, I'm attempting to contextualize to that, not in an contextualize to that, not in an contextualize to that, not in an adoption way and often in a critique adoption way and often in a critique adoption way and often in a critique way, but I want to interact with it. way, but I want to interact with it. way, but I want to interact with it. Right? So I think uh the last couple of Right? So I think uh the last couple of Right? So I think uh the last couple of years moving out of the pastoral role at years moving out of the pastoral role at years moving out of the pastoral role at Bridgetown, um serving a wider swath of Bridgetown, um serving a wider swath of Bridgetown, um serving a wider swath of the church, I've just spent my whole the church, I've just spent my whole the church, I've just spent my whole life getting eviscerated by progressives life getting eviscerated by progressives life getting eviscerated by progressives by for being an Orthodox Christian. And by for being an Orthodox Christian. And by for being an Orthodox Christian. And so, uh, now the critique has come from so, uh, now the critique has come from so, uh, now the critique has come from Christian conservatives. And it's just Christian conservatives. And it's just Christian conservatives. And it's just been so bewildering to me because I'm been so bewildering to me because I'm been so bewildering to me because I'm like, again, I'm the most conservative like, again, I'm the most conservative like, again, I'm the most conservative person I know. And I think some of it person I know. And I think some of it person I know. And I think some of it is, there's always legitimate critique.

is, there's always legitimate critique. is, there's always legitimate critique. Some of it I just think is Some of it I just think is Some of it I just think is misunderstanding. People see somebody misunderstanding. People see somebody misunderstanding. People see somebody from California who talks like a from California who talks like a from California who talks like a Californian, who's contextualizing, who Californian, who's contextualizing, who Californian, who's contextualizing, who has a contemplative heart, has a contemplative heart, has a contemplative heart, >> and we're just so used to >> and we're just so used to >> and we're just so used to >> quotes non-eangelicals. >> quotes non-eangelicals. >> quotes non-eangelicals. >> Oh, very intentionally. Absolutely. And >> Oh, very intentionally. Absolutely. And >> Oh, very intentionally. Absolutely. And I will take that one for the team for I will take that one for the team for I will take that one for the team for deep convictional reasons. But quotes deep convictional reasons. But quotes deep convictional reasons. But quotes wildly across the spectrum. And um wildly across the spectrum. And um wildly across the spectrum. And um though I have a I have a I have a rubric though I have a I have a I have a rubric though I have a I have a I have a rubric for who I do and do not quote. for who I do and do not quote. for who I do and do not quote. >> But um and I think some people think, >> But um and I think some people think, >> But um and I think some people think, oh, he's drifting leftward like he's oh, he's drifting leftward like he's oh, he's drifting leftward like he's getting sucked into. And it could not be getting sucked into. And it could not be getting sucked into. And it could not be further from the truth. Like I am deeply further from the truth. Like I am deeply further from the truth. Like I am deeply rooted in the orthodox teachings of the rooted in the orthodox teachings of the rooted in the orthodox teachings of the church and deeply rooted in scripture. I church and deeply rooted in scripture. I church and deeply rooted in scripture. I have been drifting though, I realize, have been drifting though, I realize, have been drifting though, I realize, and it's drifting backward. and it's drifting backward. and it's drifting backward. >> I've not been drifting to the right or >> I've not been drifting to the right or >> I've not been drifting to the right or the left. I've been drifting back into the left. I've been drifting back into the left. I've been drifting back into church history. I've spent the last I church history. I've spent the last I church history. I've spent the last I think I spent my 20s reading mostly to think I spent my 20s reading mostly to think I spent my 20s reading mostly to write, my 30s mostly reading Dallas write, my 30s mostly reading Dallas write, my 30s mostly reading Dallas Willard. And my 40s, I've mostly been Willard. And my 40s, I've mostly been Willard. And my 40s, I've mostly been reading psychology and ancient reading psychology and ancient reading psychology and ancient Christians, church fathers, apostolic Christians, church fathers, apostolic Christians, church fathers, apostolic fathers, medieval writers, desert fathers, medieval writers, desert fathers, medieval writers, desert fathers, and mothers. It has been so fathers, and mothers. It has been so fathers, and mothers. It has been so jarring to me at times cuz man do they jarring to me at times cuz man do they jarring to me at times cuz man do they think differently than I do about think differently than I do about think differently than I do about certain things. It has enriched and certain things. It has enriched and certain things. It has enriched and opened up my faith in ways that that are opened up my faith in ways that that are opened up my faith in ways that that are just I just I feel like a profound debt just I just I feel like a profound debt just I just I feel like a profound debt of gratitude. It has so many of the of gratitude. It has so many of the of gratitude. It has so many of the things that drive me baddy about the

things that drive me baddy about the things that drive me baddy about the modern church you realize are modern church you realize are modern church you realize are non-existent in other eras of the non-existent in other eras of the non-existent in other eras of the church. so many things that I took for church. so many things that I took for church. so many things that I took for granted even theologically you realize granted even theologically you realize granted even theologically you realize like oh wow nobody thought this way like oh wow nobody thought this way like oh wow nobody thought this way >> and it's just so helpful for me um to >> and it's just so helpful for me um to >> and it's just so helpful for me um to rediscover rediscover rediscover this kind of older paradigm this kind of older paradigm this kind of older paradigm >> so what what would be so jarring and I >> so what what would be so jarring and I >> so what what would be so jarring and I mean you know you are quoting from the mean you know you are quoting from the mean you know you are quoting from the desert fathers and mothers and the early desert fathers and mothers and the early desert fathers and mothers and the early church writers and medieval writers church writers and medieval writers church writers and medieval writers which again is a shared history like if which again is a shared history like if which again is a shared history like if you go all the way back to Jesus you go all the way back to Jesus you go all the way back to Jesus >> Yes abs Absolutely. >> Yes abs Absolutely. >> Yes abs Absolutely. >> This is our history. >> This is our history. >> This is our history. >> And we're still now on a rabbit trail >> And we're still now on a rabbit trail >> And we're still now on a rabbit trail from your question about distraction. from your question about distraction. from your question about distraction. >> Yeah. Well, I'm good at distraction. So, >> Yeah. Well, I'm good at distraction. So, >> Yeah. Well, I'm good at distraction. So, what what would be jarring? what what would be jarring? what what would be jarring? >> Well, lots of things. You know, how they >> Well, lots of things. You know, how they >> Well, lots of things. You know, how they how they view money and possessions. how they view money and possessions. how they view money and possessions. >> So, I mean, we're always culturally >> So, I mean, we're always culturally >> So, I mean, we're always culturally captive at some level, and it's like at captive at some level, and it's like at captive at some level, and it's like at what point do we just live like what point do we just live like what point do we just live like Americans? And at what point are we, you Americans? And at what point are we, you Americans? And at what point are we, you know, wearing the mark of the beast, so know, wearing the mark of the beast, so know, wearing the mark of the beast, so to speak? And you know they have a to speak? And you know they have a to speak? And you know they have a pretty radically different take on pretty radically different take on pretty radically different take on level of standard of living than we level of standard of living than we level of standard of living than we would have.

would have. would have. >> I'm going to guess it's simpler >> I'm going to guess it's simpler >> I'm going to guess it's simpler >> much simpler [laughter] >> much simpler [laughter] >> much simpler [laughter] and again to distraction. and again to distraction. and again to distraction. >> So you know uh there's this great book >> So you know uh there's this great book >> So you know uh there's this great book uh not great book like you need to read uh not great book like you need to read uh not great book like you need to read it but there's a UCL UCLA professor of it but there's a UCL UCLA professor of it but there's a UCL UCLA professor of medieval history wrote this great book medieval history wrote this great book medieval history wrote this great book called the wandering mind Jamie forget called the wandering mind Jamie forget called the wandering mind Jamie forget her last name. great book and she writes her last name. great book and she writes her last name. great book and she writes about what we can learn about dealing about what we can learn about dealing about what we can learn about dealing with distraction in the digital age from with distraction in the digital age from with distraction in the digital age from ancient monks and she points out that ancient monks and she points out that ancient monks and she points out that the first waves of monks were obsessed the first waves of monks were obsessed the first waves of monks were obsessed with the problem of distraction. It's no with the problem of distraction. It's no with the problem of distraction. It's no iPhone, no social media, no it's iPhone, no social media, no it's iPhone, no social media, no it's >> so >> so >> so this is like fourth century when we're this is like fourth century when we're this is like fourth century when we're starting to read them starting to read them starting to read them >> and they're distraction obsessed with >> and they're distraction obsessed with >> and they're distraction obsessed with distraction because they are attempting distraction because they are attempting distraction because they are attempting to follow Paul's command to pray without to follow Paul's command to pray without to follow Paul's command to pray without ceasing. They are after union with God ceasing. They are after union with God ceasing. They are after union with God and transformation into people of love. and transformation into people of love. and transformation into people of love. And so everything for them is how do I And so everything for them is how do I And so everything for them is how do I keep my mind locked into prayer 24/7, keep my mind locked into prayer 24/7, keep my mind locked into prayer 24/7, right? So for example, you read the right? So for example, you read the right? So for example, you read the earliest monks like later you get earliest monks like later you get earliest monks like later you get nasticism comes in, you get medieval nasticism comes in, you get medieval nasticism comes in, you get medieval wackiness around pleasure and self-hate.

wackiness around pleasure and self-hate. wackiness around pleasure and self-hate. But the earliest monks like why are they But the earliest monks like why are they But the earliest monks like why are they living in poverty? living in poverty? living in poverty? >> And it was very simple. It was like the >> And it was very simple. It was like the >> And it was very simple. It was like the more stuff you have, the more distracted more stuff you have, the more distracted more stuff you have, the more distracted you. I was literally thinking about this you. I was literally thinking about this you. I was literally thinking about this this morning, Carrie. I uh just bought a this morning, Carrie. I uh just bought a this morning, Carrie. I uh just bought a motorcycle. motorcycle. motorcycle. >> Oh, cool. >> Oh, cool. >> Oh, cool. >> And yes, so I used to ride forever ago >> And yes, so I used to ride forever ago >> And yes, so I used to ride forever ago and then had kids and with great respect and then had kids and with great respect and then had kids and with great respect to my reformed brothers and sisters, I'm to my reformed brothers and sisters, I'm to my reformed brothers and sisters, I'm not a Calvinist. And I think that I not a Calvinist. And I think that I not a Calvinist. And I think that I probably have a say in the day I die. probably have a say in the day I die. probably have a say in the day I die. And I that's a I know there's a And I that's a I know there's a And I that's a I know there's a theological debate about that. Some theological debate about that. Some theological debate about that. Some people think it's just set by heaven. I people think it's just set by heaven. I people think it's just set by heaven. I kind of think that [laughter] kind of think that [laughter] kind of think that [laughter] how I live is probably going to affect how I live is probably going to affect how I live is probably going to affect >> what you eat and how you drive that >> what you eat and how you drive that >> what you eat and how you drive that motorcycle. motorcycle. motorcycle. >> I say that playfully. I know that I have >> I say that playfully. I know that I have >> I say that playfully. I know that I have deep Jesus friends that don't agree with deep Jesus friends that don't agree with deep Jesus friends that don't agree with me on this one, but um and so I got rid me on this one, but um and so I got rid me on this one, but um and so I got rid of my bike and then my plan was to like of my bike and then my plan was to like of my bike and then my plan was to like get a bike again when my kids are old get a bike again when my kids are old get a bike again when my kids are old enough that I can die. And I woke up enough that I can die. And I woke up enough that I can die. And I woke up recently, we've moved to the Santa recently, we've moved to the Santa recently, we've moved to the Santa Monica Mountains, which is some of the Monica Mountains, which is some of the Monica Mountains, which is some of the best motorcycle riding in the country. best motorcycle riding in the country. best motorcycle riding in the country. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's gorgeous weather all >> Yeah. Yeah. It's gorgeous weather all >> Yeah. Yeah. It's gorgeous weather all year. And right where we live is year. And right where we live is year. And right where we live is literally like just dream writing. I literally like just dream writing. I literally like just dream writing. I thought I'm dable now. Like my kids are thought I'm dable now. Like my kids are thought I'm dable now. Like my kids are old enough. One is out of the home, the old enough. One is out of the home, the old enough. One is out of the home, the other a year away.

other a year away. other a year away. >> Got a little residual income from books. >> Got a little residual income from books. >> Got a little residual income from books. I'm like, you know what? We have some I'm like, you know what? We have some I'm like, you know what? We have some life insurance. I'm like, they would be life insurance. I'm like, they would be life insurance. I'm like, they would be okay. So, I just bought a bike. But all okay. So, I just bought a bike. But all okay. So, I just bought a bike. But all that to say, I was so excited. I've that to say, I was so excited. I've that to say, I was so excited. I've wanted a bike to get another bike for wanted a bike to get another bike for wanted a bike to get another bike for years. But man, the amount to find a years. But man, the amount to find a years. But man, the amount to find a bike, go in LA, drive across the city to bike, go in LA, drive across the city to bike, go in LA, drive across the city to see it, then drive again to get it, go see it, then drive again to get it, go see it, then drive again to get it, go to the bank, get stuck at the bank, get to the bank, get stuck at the bank, get to the bank, get stuck at the bank, get it repainted, get this part of it it repainted, get this part of it it repainted, get this part of it modified by a mechanic, pick it up, get modified by a mechanic, pick it up, get modified by a mechanic, pick it up, get it home, get insurance, get a cover for it home, get insurance, get a cover for it home, get insurance, get a cover for it, figure out now I need a helmet again it, figure out now I need a helmet again it, figure out now I need a helmet again and gloves again and just the level and and gloves again and just the level and and gloves again and just the level and now, by the way, I have to write it and now, by the way, I have to write it and now, by the way, I have to write it and keep it clean and keep the oil changed keep it clean and keep the oil changed keep it clean and keep the oil changed and I'm like the level of distraction. and I'm like the level of distraction. and I'm like the level of distraction. Huh? Huh? Huh? >> I just brought into my life and >> I just brought into my life and >> I just brought into my life and literally I just picked it up uh literally I just picked it up uh literally I just picked it up uh Thursday and by the time I got home I Thursday and by the time I got home I Thursday and by the time I got home I was like I think I should sell this was like I think I should sell this was like I think I should sell this [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> like everybody who's ever bought a >> like everybody who's ever bought a >> like everybody who's ever bought a motorcycle. motorcycle. motorcycle. >> But you're thinking >> But you're thinking >> But you're thinking >> the early monks were so much wiser than >> the early monks were so much wiser than >> the early monks were so much wiser than we we are. You know the we we are. You know the we we are. You know the >> the minimalist movement talks about how >> the minimalist movement talks about how >> the minimalist movement talks about how every single item that you bring into every single item that you bring into every single item that you bring into your home comes with a hidden tax. Uh your home comes with a hidden tax. Uh your home comes with a hidden tax. Uh Cal Newport writes the same about any Cal Newport writes the same about any Cal Newport writes the same about any work project you think okay I'm going to work project you think okay I'm going to work project you think okay I'm going to do this thing. saying, "I'm going to do this thing. saying, "I'm going to do this thing. saying, "I'm going to write a book and it's going to take this write a book and it's going to take this write a book and it's going to take this many hours." But what we don't calculate many hours." But what we don't calculate many hours." But what we don't calculate is the hidden tax of this many meetings is the hidden tax of this many meetings is the hidden tax of this many meetings with your publishers and marketing and with your publishers and marketing and with your publishers and marketing and podcast interviews and this and copying podcast interviews and this and copying podcast interviews and this and copying and so and so and people angry at you and so and so and people angry at you and so and so and people angry at you online about this and then you have to online about this and then you have to online about this and then you have to respond and then you you know there's respond and then you you know there's respond and then you you know there's all the there's a tax all the there's a tax all the there's a tax >> that goes into every work project into

>> that goes into every work project into >> that goes into every work project into every item that you own. So all that to every item that you own. So all that to every item that you own. So all that to say the monks are like they're talking say the monks are like they're talking say the monks are like they're talking about they have a whole like about they have a whole like about they have a whole like spirituality distraction in the desert spirituality distraction in the desert spirituality distraction in the desert fathers they they believe that demonic fathers they they believe that demonic fathers they they believe that demonic beings non-human entities that are at beings non-human entities that are at beings non-human entities that are at war with God have access to our mind and war with God have access to our mind and war with God have access to our mind and our imagination. And so they're pretty our imagination. And so they're pretty our imagination. And so they're pretty quick to name invasive thoughts as quick to name invasive thoughts as quick to name invasive thoughts as demonic in origin. But whether you buy demonic in origin. But whether you buy demonic in origin. But whether you buy their demonology or interpret it more their demonology or interpret it more their demonology or interpret it more through the lens of just like modern through the lens of just like modern through the lens of just like modern ADHD, evolutionary brain, Ethan Cross, ADHD, evolutionary brain, Ethan Cross, ADHD, evolutionary brain, Ethan Cross, if you've read his stuff on Chatter, um, if you've read his stuff on Chatter, um, if you've read his stuff on Chatter, um, or psychic entropy from Cheek Sent Me or psychic entropy from Cheek Sent Me or psychic entropy from Cheek Sent Me High, whatever, whether you want to go High, whatever, whether you want to go High, whatever, whether you want to go at it through the lens of evolutionary at it through the lens of evolutionary at it through the lens of evolutionary psychology or ancient Christian psychology or ancient Christian psychology or ancient Christian demonology, you kind of end up at a demonology, you kind of end up at a demonology, you kind of end up at a similar spot where with distraction, the similar spot where with distraction, the similar spot where with distraction, the main way you deal with distraction is main way you deal with distraction is main way you deal with distraction is you just don't give it a second thought. you just don't give it a second thought. you just don't give it a second thought. you like move on and um so the monks are you like move on and um so the monks are you like move on and um so the monks are thinking about this all of the time. So thinking about this all of the time. So thinking about this all of the time. So I have just learned so much from these I have just learned so much from these I have just learned so much from these people living a millennia and a half people living a millennia and a half people living a millennia and a half before Steve Jobs about first off just before Steve Jobs about first off just before Steve Jobs about first off just how normal distraction is.

how normal distraction is. how normal distraction is. >> Yeah. And back to what you're saying, >> Yeah. And back to what you're saying, >> Yeah. And back to what you're saying, the great lie. I think people go into the great lie. I think people go into the great lie. I think people go into I'm going to use the word contemplative I'm going to use the word contemplative I'm going to use the word contemplative in the broad broad sense of that word. in the broad broad sense of that word. in the broad broad sense of that word. Um, which just means a way of quietly Um, which just means a way of quietly Um, which just means a way of quietly being with God where you are deeply being with God where you are deeply being with God where you are deeply attuning attuning attuning to the person of Christ within you and to the person of Christ within you and to the person of Christ within you and you are loving as you are loved and you you are loving as you are loved and you you are loving as you are loved and you are listening as you are being listened are listening as you are being listened are listening as you are being listened to. to. to. and um these quieter ways of being with and um these quieter ways of being with and um these quieter ways of being with God which are very common in church God which are very common in church God which are very common in church history, very common in the global history, very common in the global history, very common in the global church and tragically uncommon at least church and tragically uncommon at least church and tragically uncommon at least in evangelicalism. Evangelicalism has a in evangelicalism. Evangelicalism has a in evangelicalism. Evangelicalism has a lot of strong lot of strong lot of strong lot of uh lot of virtuous beautiful lot of uh lot of virtuous beautiful lot of uh lot of virtuous beautiful charrorisms but it has some huge charrorisms but it has some huge charrorisms but it has some huge weaknesses and one is it is just so weaknesses and one is it is just so weaknesses and one is it is just so profoundly noisy. It has aped the profoundly noisy. It has aped the profoundly noisy. It has aped the culture of noise, busyiness, size, culture of noise, busyiness, size, culture of noise, busyiness, size, bigger is better, celebrity bigger is better, celebrity bigger is better, celebrity rather than even certainly rather than rather than even certainly rather than rather than even certainly rather than critique the culture or rather than even critique the culture or rather than even critique the culture or rather than even rebelled or resisting the culture. And I rebelled or resisting the culture. And I rebelled or resisting the culture. And I just think we've really missed it here.

just think we've really missed it here. just think we've really missed it here. And so what happens in particular, And so what happens in particular, And so what happens in particular, people from a more noisy church people from a more noisy church people from a more noisy church background or faith background, they background or faith background, they background or faith background, they attempt quieter forms of prayer or a attempt quieter forms of prayer or a attempt quieter forms of prayer or a solitude retreat and their brain is it's solitude retreat and their brain is it's solitude retreat and their brain is it's monkey brain. It's just like they're monkey brain. It's just like they're monkey brain. It's just like they're sitting there and they're just like sitting there and they're just like sitting there and they're just like pissed off at some person they haven't pissed off at some person they haven't pissed off at some person they haven't seen in seven years and like this is not seen in seven years and like this is not seen in seven years and like this is not prayer sitting here ruminating on how prayer sitting here ruminating on how prayer sitting here ruminating on how much this person hurt me. much this person hurt me. much this person hurt me. >> But it is prayer >> But it is prayer >> But it is prayer >> or I'm thinking about my to-do list or >> or I'm thinking about my to-do list or >> or I'm thinking about my to-do list or I'm trying to write my sermon in my mind I'm trying to write my sermon in my mind I'm trying to write my sermon in my mind or or or >> this is my prayer time. >> this is my prayer time. >> this is my prayer time. >> This is the work. And first off, it is >> This is the work. And first off, it is >> This is the work. And first off, it is prayer. And you know, there's a and prayer. And you know, there's a and prayer. And you know, there's a and there's just so many different so many there's just so many different so many there's just so many different so many different things we could say about what different things we could say about what different things we could say about what you do in those moments. But at at you do in those moments. But at at you do in those moments. But at at nothing else, you're getting information nothing else, you're getting information nothing else, you're getting information >> and um you're getting information about >> and um you're getting information about >> and um you're getting information about the state of your heart. You're getting the state of your heart. You're getting the state of your heart. You're getting information about what the desert information about what the desert information about what the desert fathers would call your attachments, fathers would call your attachments, fathers would call your attachments, what modern Christians would call your what modern Christians would call your what modern Christians would call your idols, about the things that you have an idols, about the things that you have an idols, about the things that you have an inordinate emotional attachment to, that inordinate emotional attachment to, that inordinate emotional attachment to, that you need emotionally in order to be you need emotionally in order to be you need emotionally in order to be happy and at peace [clears throat] happy and at peace [clears throat] happy and at peace [clears throat] >> that are sabotaging your peace and >> that are sabotaging your peace and >> that are sabotaging your peace and therefore blocking the flow of love therefore blocking the flow of love therefore blocking the flow of love through you. you get information about through you. you get information about through you. you get information about all of this stuff. And so often, you all of this stuff. And so often, you all of this stuff. And so often, you know, if you come up with a performance know, if you come up with a performance know, if you come up with a performance orientation toward prayer, like I want orientation toward prayer, like I want orientation toward prayer, like I want to be good at prayer or a which is like to be good at prayer or a which is like to be good at prayer or a which is like good luck there, or a consumer good luck there, or a consumer good luck there, or a consumer orientation toward prayer, like I want orientation toward prayer, like I want orientation toward prayer, like I want to enjoy prayer, which is why I think

to enjoy prayer, which is why I think to enjoy prayer, which is why I think with all the spiritual disciplines, it with all the spiritual disciplines, it with all the spiritual disciplines, it has to come from God, I'm just offering has to come from God, I'm just offering has to come from God, I'm just offering this to you in love this to you in love this to you in love >> and I'm I just want to show up. success >> and I'm I just want to show up. success >> and I'm I just want to show up. success is is, you know, successful prayer means is is, you know, successful prayer means is is, you know, successful prayer means you prayed. It doesn't mean that you had you prayed. It doesn't mean that you had you prayed. It doesn't mean that you had an emotional high or you're caught up in an emotional high or you're caught up in an emotional high or you're caught up in the third heaven or you had a download the third heaven or you had a download the third heaven or you had a download of exactly how to handle the situation. of exactly how to handle the situation. of exactly how to handle the situation. That's all awesome if that stuff That's all awesome if that stuff That's all awesome if that stuff happens. I believe in all that. But happens. I believe in all that. But happens. I believe in all that. But success is just I sat down today and I success is just I sat down today and I success is just I sat down today and I was quiet before God and I offered was quiet before God and I offered was quiet before God and I offered myself deeply to him and my brain you myself deeply to him and my brain you myself deeply to him and my brain you know Thomas Keading used to say I don't know Thomas Keading used to say I don't know Thomas Keading used to say I don't endorse everything he said but he said endorse everything he said but he said endorse everything he said but he said some really good things he used to say some really good things he used to say some really good things he used to say if you're praying and you're find that if you're praying and you're find that if you're praying and you're find that your mind is wandered or not if when you your mind is wandered or not if when you your mind is wandered or not if when you find your mind is wandered he said if find your mind is wandered he said if find your mind is wandered he said if your mind is distracted 10,000 times in your mind is distracted 10,000 times in your mind is distracted 10,000 times in prayer that's 10,000 chances is to prayer that's 10,000 chances is to prayer that's 10,000 chances is to return to God. [clears throat] return to God. [clears throat] return to God. [clears throat] >> And so you just it's just an invitation >> And so you just it's just an invitation >> And so you just it's just an invitation back to love.

back to love. back to love. >> It gave me so much hope reading through >> It gave me so much hope reading through >> It gave me so much hope reading through that because you know I'm a not a pastor that because you know I'm a not a pastor that because you know I'm a not a pastor anymore really. You know founding anymore really. You know founding anymore really. You know founding pastor. What does that mean? Not much. pastor. What does that mean? Not much. pastor. What does that mean? Not much. >> And uh >> And uh >> And uh >> retired pastor. >> retired pastor. >> retired pastor. >> Retired pastor. Exactly. And you know >> Retired pastor. Exactly. And you know >> Retired pastor. Exactly. And you know that is my prayer life in the morning. that is my prayer life in the morning. that is my prayer life in the morning. and I pray. I can't think of a day where and I pray. I can't think of a day where and I pray. I can't think of a day where I didn't pray, but it is that constant I didn't pray, but it is that constant I didn't pray, but it is that constant distraction. And in the emptiness, stuff distraction. And in the emptiness, stuff distraction. And in the emptiness, stuff pops up pops up pops up >> and you just surrender that to God. How >> and you just surrender that to God. How >> and you just surrender that to God. How do you know you're making spiritual do you know you're making spiritual do you know you're making spiritual progress? progress? progress? >> And I'll give you give you my test. >> And I'll give you give you my test. >> And I'll give you give you my test. Like, you know, burnout. You had a hinge Like, you know, burnout. You had a hinge Like, you know, burnout. You had a hinge point at 4041 when you step back from point at 4041 when you step back from point at 4041 when you step back from Bridgetown. For me, it was burnout. I Bridgetown. For me, it was burnout. I Bridgetown. For me, it was burnout. I was 4041 when I burned out. And in my was 4041 when I burned out. And in my was 4041 when I burned out. And in my 30s, I felt I had a great prayer life. 30s, I felt I had a great prayer life. 30s, I felt I had a great prayer life. God and I were like this. My wife and I God and I were like this. My wife and I God and I were like this. My wife and I were not like this. We were not tight. were not like this. We were not tight. were not like this. We were not tight. And um she would say she didn't see a And um she would say she didn't see a And um she would say she didn't see a lot of the fruit of the Holy Spirit in lot of the fruit of the Holy Spirit in lot of the fruit of the Holy Spirit in me.

me. me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But the church was growing like crazy, >> But the church was growing like crazy, >> But the church was growing like crazy, man. Like come on. So I'm getting man. Like come on. So I'm getting man. Like come on. So I'm getting validated at work while it's not going validated at work while it's not going validated at work while it's not going well at home. Now we still, you know, well at home. Now we still, you know, well at home. Now we still, you know, after I burned out, I reccalibrated a after I burned out, I reccalibrated a after I burned out, I reccalibrated a lot of things. And one of the things lot of things. And one of the things lot of things. And one of the things that never came back that never came back that never came back was that same sense of God's presence. was that same sense of God's presence. was that same sense of God's presence. And I've thought about that a lot. And And I've thought about that a lot. And And I've thought about that a lot. And on my worst days, I think, am I still a on my worst days, I think, am I still a on my worst days, I think, am I still a Christian? Like, what am I getting Christian? Like, what am I getting Christian? Like, what am I getting wrong? It didn't feel like what did you wrong? It didn't feel like what did you wrong? It didn't feel like what did you say the consumer says? Was that say the consumer says? Was that say the consumer says? Was that enjoyable? Did I feel enjoyable? Did I feel enjoyable? Did I feel >> and like, no, it's not. But my wife >> and like, no, it's not. But my wife >> and like, no, it's not. But my wife would say, "Oh, man. Like, you've would say, "Oh, man. Like, you've would say, "Oh, man. Like, you've changed. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is changed. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is changed. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is so much more evident in your life now so much more evident in your life now so much more evident in your life now than it was 20 years ago, in our than it was 20 years ago, in our than it was 20 years ago, in our marriage now. And I'm like, a lot of marriage now. And I'm like, a lot of marriage now. And I'm like, a lot of that I don't I don't want to claim that that I don't I don't want to claim that that I don't I don't want to claim that I work that out in prayer, but that's I work that out in prayer, but that's I work that out in prayer, but that's what often comes up in prayer. And it what often comes up in prayer. And it what often comes up in prayer. And it feels like, you know, you mentioned a feels like, you know, you mentioned a feels like, you know, you mentioned a motorcycle. motorcycle. motorcycle. It doesn't actually run. It just It doesn't actually run. It just It doesn't actually run. It just sputters. It's like, oh, stalled, sputters. It's like, oh, stalled, sputters. It's like, oh, stalled, stalled again, stalled again, back in stalled again, stalled again, back in stalled again, stalled again, back in the shop. That's my prayer life.

the shop. That's my prayer life. the shop. That's my prayer life. >> But you see, Tony would say she sees >> But you see, Tony would say she sees >> But you see, Tony would say she sees fruit. Any thoughts on that for people fruit. Any thoughts on that for people fruit. Any thoughts on that for people who maybe don't have that kind of who maybe don't have that kind of who maybe don't have that kind of rapturous rapturous rapturous Evangelical charismatic experience in Evangelical charismatic experience in Evangelical charismatic experience in prayer. prayer. prayer. >> Yeah. >> Thought one would just be full >> Thought one would just be full agreement. agreement. agreement. >> I think if there is a metric, >> I think if there is a metric, >> I think if there is a metric, it is as simple as do the people who it is as simple as do the people who it is as simple as do the people who know me best know me best know me best see me slowly, incrementally growing in see me slowly, incrementally growing in see me slowly, incrementally growing in whatever New Testament kind of criteria. whatever New Testament kind of criteria. whatever New Testament kind of criteria. So the top contenders would be the So the top contenders would be the So the top contenders would be the sermon on the mount, the fruit of the sermon on the mount, the fruit of the sermon on the mount, the fruit of the spirit in Galatians, spirit in Galatians, spirit in Galatians, >> Peter chapter 1, faith, hope, and love. >> Peter chapter 1, faith, hope, and love. >> Peter chapter 1, faith, hope, and love. I mean, there's Romans 13, like there's I mean, there's Romans 13, like there's I mean, there's Romans 13, like there's various, you know. various, you know. various, you know. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But pick one. Any of them work pretty >> But pick one. Any of them work pretty >> But pick one. Any of them work pretty well. well. well. >> There there's enough texts there that we >> There there's enough texts there that we >> There there's enough texts there that we can pick a few. can pick a few. can pick a few. >> Do the people who know me best? And >> Do the people who know me best? And >> Do the people who know me best? And that's um that's um that's um I think that's likely your most accurate I think that's likely your most accurate I think that's likely your most accurate metric. Now, I think that comes with the metric. Now, I think that comes with the metric. Now, I think that comes with the caveat of the most caveat of the most caveat of the most difficult people to love well are the difficult people to love well are the difficult people to love well are the people we're closest to. So, like people we're closest to. So, like people we're closest to. So, like Willard used to say, if you if you make Willard used to say, if you if you make Willard used to say, if you if you make a decision in your heart to really a decision in your heart to really a decision in your heart to really intentionally begin apprenticing under intentionally begin apprenticing under intentionally begin apprenticing under Jesus and becoming a person of love, Jesus and becoming a person of love, Jesus and becoming a person of love, don't start with your family because don't start with your family because don't start with your family because it's too hard to love your family. He it's too hard to love your family. He it's too hard to love your family. He would say like start with a coworker would say like start with a coworker would say like start with a coworker that doesn't report to you [laughter] that doesn't report to you [laughter] that doesn't report to you [laughter] cuz it's like easier to love somebody

cuz it's like easier to love somebody cuz it's like easier to love somebody like that. He's like get some small wins like that. He's like get some small wins like that. He's like get some small wins on the board. on the board. on the board. >> Um you know because once you get to your >> Um you know because once you get to your >> Um you know because once you get to your you know if you have a family your you know if you have a family your you know if you have a family your spouse and your children I mean you are spouse and your children I mean you are spouse and your children I mean you are so deep into your shadow your wounding so deep into your shadow your wounding so deep into your shadow your wounding your ego your ego your ego >> the triggers. >> the triggers. >> the triggers. >> Yeah. And that's where it matters the >> Yeah. And that's where it matters the >> Yeah. And that's where it matters the most. most. most. >> But that's where like the ripple effect >> But that's where like the ripple effect >> But that's where like the ripple effect of transformation is going to hit there of transformation is going to hit there of transformation is going to hit there last. Like I saw I saw um transformation last. Like I saw I saw um transformation last. Like I saw I saw um transformation in like how our staff would talk about in like how our staff would talk about in like how our staff would talk about us. us. us. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Way before how my kids, you know. Um but >> Way before how my kids, you know. Um but >> Way before how my kids, you know. Um but I think what are other people who know I think what are other people who know I think what are other people who know me well saying? Which is interesting me well saying? Which is interesting me well saying? Which is interesting because especially when you're in a because especially when you're in a because especially when you're in a wilderness time like I have been through wilderness time like I have been through wilderness time like I have been through or naming a bit of your experience of or naming a bit of your experience of or naming a bit of your experience of prayer, a dark night of the soul, you prayer, a dark night of the soul, you prayer, a dark night of the soul, you feel like you're regressing, not feel like you're regressing, not feel like you're regressing, not progressing. progressing. progressing. >> That is true. >> That is true. >> That is true. >> And in solitude like you're exposed to >> And in solitude like you're exposed to >> And in solitude like you're exposed to the worst part of your heart. And so you the worst part of your heart. And so you the worst part of your heart. And so you can come away just thinking I'm I don't can come away just thinking I'm I don't can come away just thinking I'm I don't even know if I'm a Christian, much less even know if I'm a Christian, much less even know if I'm a Christian, much less [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] set aside good Christian, set aside good Christian, set aside good Christian, >> you know. and and um >> you know. and and um >> you know. and and um >> my son said to me the other I have a >> my son said to me the other I have a >> my son said to me the other I have a 20-year-old son, amazing kid. We could 20-year-old son, amazing kid. We could 20-year-old son, amazing kid. We could not be more different. And so, you know, not be more different. And so, you know, not be more different. And so, you know, we're working really hard to try to we're working really hard to try to we're working really hard to try to understand each other with sons. I don't understand each other with sons. I don't understand each other with sons. I don't know about daughters, but know about daughters, but know about daughters, but >> sons with same gender and different >> sons with same gender and different >> sons with same gender and different personality. You know, I have two sons.

personality. You know, I have two sons. personality. You know, I have two sons. One's much more similar to me. Uh the One's much more similar to me. Uh the One's much more similar to me. Uh the other is like, "Wow, this this is other is like, "Wow, this this is other is like, "Wow, this this is tricky." And uh we regularly do kind of tricky." And uh we regularly do kind of tricky." And uh we regularly do kind of affirmation circles. And this was for a affirmation circles. And this was for a affirmation circles. And this was for a it wasn't for a birthday, it was for it wasn't for a birthday, it was for it wasn't for a birthday, it was for another special event. And my family was another special event. And my family was another special event. And my family was kind enough to go around the table and kind enough to go around the table and kind enough to go around the table and affirm me. And my son said, "Dad, I've affirm me. And my son said, "Dad, I've affirm me. And my son said, "Dad, I've really seen transformation in you in a really seen transformation in you in a really seen transformation in you in a couple of these areas." And then he said couple of these areas." And then he said couple of these areas." And then he said the most interesting thing that like the most interesting thing that like the most interesting thing that like literally shocked me. He said, "It all literally shocked me. He said, "It all literally shocked me. He said, "It all started when we uh left Portland. We started when we uh left Portland. We started when we uh left Portland. We moved down here." And he went on, he's moved down here." And he went on, he's moved down here." And he went on, he's like, "That's when I really saw you like, "That's when I really saw you like, "That's when I really saw you start to transform. Those were three of start to transform. Those were three of start to transform. Those were three of the worst years of my life. I was an the worst years of my life. I was an the worst years of my life. I was an emotional mess. I was living through an emotional mess. I was living through an emotional mess. I was living through an identity crisis. Multiple things I'm not identity crisis. Multiple things I'm not identity crisis. Multiple things I'm not at liberty to talk about, but it was at liberty to talk about, but it was at liberty to talk about, but it was horrible. I just felt like my life was horrible. I just felt like my life was horrible. I just felt like my life was falling apart. I felt like, where is falling apart. I felt like, where is falling apart. I felt like, where is God? I was in an abject wilderness time. God? I was in an abject wilderness time. God? I was in an abject wilderness time. I felt deeply abandoned by God. And I felt deeply abandoned by God. And I felt deeply abandoned by God. And here's my 20-year-old son who I've had here's my 20-year-old son who I've had here's my 20-year-old son who I've had a, you know, uphill relationship with, a, you know, uphill relationship with, a, you know, uphill relationship with, >> saying, "Yeah, that's when I really saw >> saying, "Yeah, that's when I really saw >> saying, "Yeah, that's when I really saw you start to transform.

you start to transform. you start to transform. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And I was like, "Wait, what is my >> And I was like, "Wait, what is my >> And I was like, "Wait, what is my compass even pointing to us?" compass even pointing to us?" compass even pointing to us?" >> And he was not remotely saying like, >> And he was not remotely saying like, >> And he was not remotely saying like, "You're there. You've arrived. You're "You're there. You've arrived. You're "You're there. You've arrived. You're the best." You know, but and it was the best." You know, but and it was the best." You know, but and it was again, it was an affirmation circle. It again, it was an affirmation circle. It again, it was an affirmation circle. It wasn't it was it was a non-normal wasn't it was it was a non-normal wasn't it was it was a non-normal moment. moment. moment. >> But I just think that is that's the >> But I just think that is that's the >> But I just think that is that's the that's the primary metric that matters. that's the primary metric that matters. that's the primary metric that matters. Do people who know me best Do people who know me best Do people who know me best [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> say that I am growing? Again, healing >> say that I am growing? Again, healing >> say that I am growing? Again, healing not healed. not healed. not healed. >> Yeah. you know, moving forward. And yes, >> Yeah. you know, moving forward. And yes, >> Yeah. you know, moving forward. And yes, there are breakthrough moments, and I there are breakthrough moments, and I there are breakthrough moments, and I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. I think charismatics and contemplatives I think charismatics and contemplatives I think charismatics and contemplatives are both wrong and both right, need to are both wrong and both right, need to are both wrong and both right, need to listen to each other more. Um, but uh listen to each other more. Um, but uh listen to each other more. Um, but uh are we moving in the right direction? are we moving in the right direction? are we moving in the right direction? So, that's the main metric I would pay So, that's the main metric I would pay So, that's the main metric I would pay attention to, but that doesn't negate attention to, but that doesn't negate attention to, but that doesn't negate the metric of how am I experiencing God the metric of how am I experiencing God the metric of how am I experiencing God in prayer. And I think, yeah, that's a in prayer. And I think, yeah, that's a in prayer. And I think, yeah, that's a long conversation. There are seasons I long conversation. There are seasons I long conversation. There are seasons I very much believe in like St. John of very much believe in like St. John of very much believe in like St. John of the Cross's basic idea around dark the Cross's basic idea around dark the Cross's basic idea around dark nights of the soul. I think that's a nights of the soul. I think that's a nights of the soul. I think that's a underdeveloped spirituality in the underdeveloped spirituality in the underdeveloped spirituality in the Protestant tradition again because the Protestant tradition again because the Protestant tradition again because the Protestant tradition has made Bible Protestant tradition has made Bible Protestant tradition has made Bible study the focus more than prayer.

study the focus more than prayer. study the focus more than prayer. >> It's an oversimplification but >> It's an oversimplification but >> It's an oversimplification but >> sure what Protestants the role that the >> sure what Protestants the role that the >> sure what Protestants the role that the Bible plays to Protestants uh prayer Bible plays to Protestants uh prayer Bible plays to Protestants uh prayer tends to play to Catholics. And um tends to play to Catholics. And um tends to play to Catholics. And um that's a an oversimplification. that's a an oversimplification. that's a an oversimplification. But because of that, we're often, you But because of that, we're often, you But because of that, we're often, you know, prayer feels a little bit in know, prayer feels a little bit in know, prayer feels a little bit in particular quiet or more contemplative particular quiet or more contemplative particular quiet or more contemplative types of prayer feels a little bit more types of prayer feels a little bit more types of prayer feels a little bit more alien. But um so there's a there's a alien. But um so there's a there's a alien. But um so there's a there's a underdeveloped theology of the dark underdeveloped theology of the dark underdeveloped theology of the dark night, I think, if you want to call it night, I think, if you want to call it night, I think, if you want to call it that or the wilderness or the desert in that or the wilderness or the desert in that or the wilderness or the desert in the in the Protestant um arm of the the in the Protestant um arm of the the in the Protestant um arm of the church. And I think there's a lot we can church. And I think there's a lot we can church. And I think there's a lot we can learn from St. John of the Cross and learn from St. John of the Cross and learn from St. John of the Cross and others that have been through long others that have been through long others that have been through long periods of dryness. But I also think periods of dryness. But I also think periods of dryness. But I also think there's a stage thing there. Like often there's a stage thing there. Like often there's a stage thing there. Like often where we find life with God in our where we find life with God in our where we find life with God in our earlier stages and earlier years is not earlier stages and earlier years is not earlier stages and earlier years is not the same place that we find life with the same place that we find life with the same place that we find life with God in our middle years, which is not God in our middle years, which is not God in our middle years, which is not the same place that we find life with the same place that we find life with the same place that we find life with God in our elderly years. And so I think God in our elderly years. And so I think God in our elderly years. And so I think um it's not like a formula and you hack um it's not like a formula and you hack um it's not like a formula and you hack the formula and you figure out what you the formula and you figure out what you the formula and you figure out what you like and then you just do that for 70 like and then you just do that for 70 like and then you just do that for 70 years.

years. years. >> Um it's like a spiritual journey >> Um it's like a spiritual journey >> Um it's like a spiritual journey >> and there are you know you Peterson >> and there are you know you Peterson >> and there are you know you Peterson Eugene Peterson would write about the Eugene Peterson would write about the Eugene Peterson would write about the spiritual badlands. there are spiritual spiritual badlands. there are spiritual spiritual badlands. there are spiritual badlands and you keep walking. But so I badlands and you keep walking. But so I badlands and you keep walking. But so I don't know. I think there's there's don't know. I think there's there's don't know. I think there's there's longer conversations there of longer conversations there of longer conversations there of >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> how does prayer change over a lifetime? >> how does prayer change over a lifetime? >> how does prayer change over a lifetime? >> And you mentioned uh you know the 3 >> And you mentioned uh you know the 3 >> And you mentioned uh you know the 3 years after you stepped down from the years after you stepped down from the years after you stepped down from the lead pastor role being three of the lead pastor role being three of the lead pastor role being three of the worst years of your life and obviously worst years of your life and obviously worst years of your life and obviously not everything we talked about elements not everything we talked about elements not everything we talked about elements of that before and we don't need to of that before and we don't need to of that before and we don't need to repeat that. But to the extent that repeat that. But to the extent that repeat that. But to the extent that you're comfortable sharing, what was so you're comfortable sharing, what was so you're comfortable sharing, what was so hard about that? hard about that? hard about that? >> You know, well, one thing that was just >> You know, well, one thing that was just >> You know, well, one thing that was just uh really hard was we left Portland and uh really hard was we left Portland and uh really hard was we left Portland and we basically had been in the same we basically had been in the same we basically had been in the same neighborhood for just shy of 20 years. neighborhood for just shy of 20 years. neighborhood for just shy of 20 years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Same church. We had incredible community >> Same church. We had incredible community >> Same church. We had incredible community carry. I mean, just incred like the carry. I mean, just incred like the carry. I mean, just incred like the church was amazing. Our home community church was amazing. Our home community church was amazing. Our home community was amazing. Our Sabbath community was was amazing. Our Sabbath community was was amazing. Our Sabbath community was amazing. Our elders were amazing.

amazing. Our elders were amazing. amazing. Our elders were amazing. >> I had been, you know, kind of brought up >> I had been, you know, kind of brought up >> I had been, you know, kind of brought up in a more traditional megaurch approach in a more traditional megaurch approach in a more traditional megaurch approach to church leadership. And I was really to church leadership. And I was really to church leadership. And I was really impacted by uh my favorite book on impacted by uh my favorite book on impacted by uh my favorite book on community is by Joseph Helerman down community is by Joseph Helerman down community is by Joseph Helerman down here in Southern California. Wrote the here in Southern California. Wrote the here in Southern California. Wrote the book When the Church Was a Family. Hm. book When the Church Was a Family. Hm. book When the Church Was a Family. Hm. >> Wonderful book on the New Testament >> Wonderful book on the New Testament >> Wonderful book on the New Testament doctrine of church as family and the doctrine of church as family and the doctrine of church as family and the idea of the ideal church being like a idea of the ideal church being like a idea of the ideal church being like a what sociologists would call a fictive what sociologists would call a fictive what sociologists would call a fictive kinship group like basically a large kinship group like basically a large kinship group like basically a large extended family that blurs the lines extended family that blurs the lines extended family that blurs the lines between biological between biological between biological family and friend. And um it's a family and friend. And um it's a family and friend. And um it's a beautiful book and at the end he writes beautiful book and at the end he writes beautiful book and at the end he writes just about how they work it out with just about how they work it out with just about how they work it out with their elders and it like broke all of their elders and it like broke all of their elders and it like broke all of the rules that I was raised in which is the rules that I was raised in which is the rules that I was raised in which is more more corporate more more more corporate more more more corporate more businessoriented all the power dynamics businessoriented all the power dynamics businessoriented all the power dynamics all the dual every one of those all the dual every one of those all the dual every one of those relationships a dual relationship and relationships a dual relationship and relationships a dual relationship and you know just so many wonky kind of you know just so many wonky kind of you know just so many wonky kind of church leadership stories and uh we just church leadership stories and uh we just church leadership stories and uh we just gave it we just gave it a go. COVID was gave it we just gave it a go. COVID was gave it we just gave it a go. COVID was actually one of the best things to it actually one of the best things to it actually one of the best things to it was a horrible time in my life, but it was a horrible time in my life, but it was a horrible time in my life, but it was that one of the best things to was that one of the best things to was that one of the best things to happen to our elder group. And so, we happen to our elder group. And so, we happen to our elder group. And so, we started doing group spiritual direction, started doing group spiritual direction, started doing group spiritual direction, confession of sin. We do a three-hour confession of sin. We do a three-hour confession of sin. We do a three-hour meeting every single week. And it became meeting every single week. And it became meeting every single week. And it became this rich community where I mean, I was this rich community where I mean, I was this rich community where I mean, I was able to process my entire journey of do able to process my entire journey of do able to process my entire journey of do I step down from the church or not with I step down from the church or not with I step down from the church or not with all of our elders. I talked to so many all of our elders. I talked to so many all of our elders. I talked to so many pastors that have to hide that.

pastors that have to hide that. pastors that have to hide that. >> I did that, too. And it is so >> I did that, too. And it is so >> I did that, too. And it is so liberating. That's how it should be. liberating. That's how it should be. liberating. That's how it should be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But it only works if you have incredibly >> But it only works if you have incredibly >> But it only works if you have incredibly emotionally mature, spiritually mature, emotionally mature, spiritually mature, emotionally mature, spiritually mature, trustworthy leaders. Talked to somebody trustworthy leaders. Talked to somebody trustworthy leaders. Talked to somebody else who said that recently and they else who said that recently and they else who said that recently and they gave him two weeks notice and he was gave him two weeks notice and he was gave him two weeks notice and he was done. Screwed him over. done. Screwed him over. done. Screwed him over. >> Heard that story and I'm careful about >> Heard that story and I'm careful about >> Heard that story and I'm careful about how I share my experience now. But yeah, how I share my experience now. But yeah, how I share my experience now. But yeah, we we we >> uncommon. I think our experience was >> uncommon. I think our experience was >> uncommon. I think our experience was uncom. uncom. uncom. >> I had three or four months where they >> I had three or four months where they >> I had three or four months where they had known. I was thinking, okay, had known. I was thinking, okay, had known. I was thinking, okay, sometime in my mid-50s, but then it was sometime in my mid-50s, but then it was sometime in my mid-50s, but then it was sort of, you know, for May we opened the sort of, you know, for May we opened the sort of, you know, for May we opened the question. By October, I was done. I was question. By October, I was done. I was question. By October, I was done. I was 100% processed with the elders. And you 100% processed with the elders. And you 100% processed with the elders. And you know what? Of all the things that I gave know what? Of all the things that I gave know what? Of all the things that I gave up when I was a lead pastor, that's the up when I was a lead pastor, that's the up when I was a lead pastor, that's the one I missed the most. one I missed the most. one I missed the most. >> That was the hardest. >> That was the hardest. >> That was the hardest. >> That was the hardest. It was like, gosh, >> That was the hardest. It was like, gosh, >> That was the hardest. It was like, gosh, I miss the elders. I miss the elders. I miss the elders. >> You know, it was interesting. Um, these >> You know, it was interesting. Um, these >> You know, it was interesting. Um, these were like my closest. I had a few, you were like my closest. I had a few, you were like my closest. I had a few, you know, you stay in leadership at a church know, you stay in leadership at a church know, you stay in leadership at a church long enough, inevitably all of your long enough, inevitably all of your long enough, inevitably all of your friends end up in some form of friends end up in some form of friends end up in some form of leadership, which in hindsight, speak of leadership, which in hindsight, speak of leadership, which in hindsight, speak of regrets, I was like, "Ah, save a few regrets, I was like, "Ah, save a few regrets, I was like, "Ah, save a few friends who don't even go to your friends who don't even go to your friends who don't even go to your church." Like, in hindsight, go back to church." Like, in hindsight, go back to church." Like, in hindsight, go back to my 25-year-old self. Um but uh I had my 25-year-old self. Um but uh I had my 25-year-old self. Um but uh I had these rich partnerships, relationships, these rich partnerships, relationships, these rich partnerships, relationships, friendships. But when Tyler came in, I friendships. But when Tyler came in, I friendships. But when Tyler came in, I realized, well, none of these leaders realized, well, none of these leaders realized, well, none of these leaders want me to go.

want me to go. want me to go. >> So we are discerning together that my >> So we are discerning together that my >> So we are discerning together that my time of leading this church is coming to time of leading this church is coming to time of leading this church is coming to an end, and I am called to start up an end, and I am called to start up an end, and I am called to start up practicing the way. We're discerning practicing the way. We're discerning practicing the way. We're discerning this as a community and sensing the this as a community and sensing the this as a community and sensing the leading of the spirit. But it's not like leading of the spirit. But it's not like leading of the spirit. But it's not like there's bad blood and conflict that there's bad blood and conflict that there's bad blood and conflict that people want me out. And so here comes people want me out. And so here comes people want me out. And so here comes Tyler who now in hindsight is like a Tyler who now in hindsight is like a Tyler who now in hindsight is like a better leader than I ever was and better leader than I ever was and better leader than I ever was and extraordinary like A+ A+ A+ A+ but at extraordinary like A+ A+ A+ A+ but at extraordinary like A+ A+ A+ A+ but at the time was like a little not a risk the time was like a little not a risk the time was like a little not a risk risk but was like young from a way risk but was like young from a way risk but was like young from a way smaller church you know and it's like smaller church you know and it's like smaller church you know and it's like all right how's he going to do? And so all right how's he going to do? And so all right how's he going to do? And so my role then becomes to champion him. my role then becomes to champion him. my role then becomes to champion him. And all of a sudden that dual And all of a sudden that dual And all of a sudden that dual relationship has to be more pastor than relationship has to be more pastor than relationship has to be more pastor than brother because now I have to help these brother because now I have to help these brother because now I have to help these elders adhere to his leadership come to elders adhere to his leadership come to elders adhere to his leadership come to fall in love with him which was no fall in love with him which was no fall in love with him which was no problem. He's just extraordinary. Um but problem. He's just extraordinary. Um but problem. He's just extraordinary. Um but that means all of my like oh I got my that means all of my like oh I got my that means all of my like oh I got my feelings hurt or I disagree with how feelings hurt or I disagree with how feelings hurt or I disagree with how this was done or I really don't like how this was done or I really don't like how this was done or I really don't like how you handled that situation. the first you handled that situation. the first you handled that situation. the first line of emotional defense that I would line of emotional defense that I would line of emotional defense that I would normally process all that stuff with, I normally process all that stuff with, I normally process all that stuff with, I can't process with him.

can't process with him. can't process with him. >> Gone. >> Gone. >> Gone. >> Gone. >> Gone. >> Gone. >> Like, and now that creates a gap between >> Like, and now that creates a gap between >> Like, and now that creates a gap between me and my closest brothers. Not a gap of me and my closest brothers. Not a gap of me and my closest brothers. Not a gap of >> unhealthy gap, like a healthy gap. Man, >> unhealthy gap, like a healthy gap. Man, >> unhealthy gap, like a healthy gap. Man, I just need to moderate a necessary gap. I just need to moderate a necessary gap. I just need to moderate a necessary gap. You need to emotionally connect to him. You need to emotionally connect to him. You need to emotionally connect to him. He needs to begin to take a role in your He needs to begin to take a role in your He needs to begin to take a role in your life that I used to play. And so for life that I used to play. And so for life that I used to play. And so for example now when I run into one of those example now when I run into one of those example now when I run into one of those leaders I can't say to them and it's leaders I can't say to them and it's leaders I can't say to them and it's going great now so it's not a temptation going great now so it's not a temptation going great now so it's not a temptation now but the first year or two like now but the first year or two like now but the first year or two like everything in me wanted me to be like everything in me wanted me to be like everything in me wanted me to be like how's it going how's it going how's it going >> are you okay like how's it going d I >> are you okay like how's it going d I >> are you okay like how's it going d I cannot be person if there is stuff that cannot be person if there is stuff that cannot be person if there is stuff that they're you know angsty about or what I they're you know angsty about or what I they're you know angsty about or what I can't be the person they come to you can't be the person they come to you can't be the person they come to you know I had a leadership coach this know I had a leadership coach this know I had a leadership coach this wonderful wonderful wonderful >> and that's why the transition went well >> and that's why the transition went well >> and that's why the transition went well for the record that's why it went well for the record that's why it went well for the record that's why it went well >> I had this amazing leadership coach what >> I had this amazing leadership coach what >> I had this amazing leadership coach what you said to me. All right. You say, "You you said to me. All right. You say, "You you said to me. All right. You say, "You now have two rules." He said, "Rollule now have two rules." He said, "Rollule now have two rules." He said, "Rollule number one is you are Tyler." That's the number one is you are Tyler." That's the number one is you are Tyler." That's the name of my replacement. You are his name of my replacement. You are his name of my replacement. You are his number one biggest fan. You champion number one biggest fan. You champion number one biggest fan. You champion him. You scream for him. You cheer for him. You scream for him. You cheer for him. You scream for him. You cheer for him. You bless bless bless. Rule number him. You bless bless bless. Rule number him. You bless bless bless. Rule number two. If he does a horrible job, you come two. If he does a horrible job, you come two. If he does a horrible job, you come back in and lead a coup. [laughter] back in and lead a coup. [laughter] back in and lead a coup. [laughter] And he's like, you turn the whole church And he's like, you turn the whole church And he's like, you turn the whole church against him. You get him fired and you against him. You get him fired and you against him. You get him fired and you take back over. and he said, "Everything take back over. and he said, "Everything take back over. and he said, "Everything in between is completely off limits to in between is completely off limits to in between is completely off limits to you." [laughter] you." [laughter] you." [laughter] >> Now, thankfully, again, Tyler is a >> Now, thankfully, again, Tyler is a >> Now, thankfully, again, Tyler is a better leader than I ever was and my better leader than I ever was and my better leader than I ever was and my church is thriving and is unnecessary church is thriving and is unnecessary church is thriving and is unnecessary friends and no coup was required and friends and no coup was required and friends and no coup was required and hopefully he will never listen and

hopefully he will never listen and hopefully he will never listen and realize that in my back pocket was a realize that in my back pocket was a realize that in my back pocket was a possible coup. possible coup. possible coup. >> Um, but that was really hard. So, >> Um, but that was really hard. So, >> Um, but that was really hard. So, leaving that and it's kind of a long leaving that and it's kind of a long leaving that and it's kind of a long complex story. We came to where we live complex story. We came to where we live complex story. We came to where we live now on a wild step of faith and I'm not now on a wild step of faith and I'm not now on a wild step of faith and I'm not even ready to tell that story yet cuz even ready to tell that story yet cuz even ready to tell that story yet cuz it's still being written and there's it's still being written and there's it's still being written and there's some stuff that I think is going to some stuff that I think is going to some stuff that I think is going to happen but hasn't happened yet. happen but hasn't happened yet. happen but hasn't happened yet. >> Um so pin in that one but we came here >> Um so pin in that one but we came here >> Um so pin in that one but we came here literally I had a dream about the literally I had a dream about the literally I had a dream about the neighborhood or the place I live now. I neighborhood or the place I live now. I neighborhood or the place I live now. I never heard of it. I had never heard of it. I had never heard of it. I had >> You told me that last time. I don't >> You told me that last time. I don't >> You told me that last time. I don't think we filmed it but like you had a think we filmed it but like you had a think we filmed it but like you had a picture of what? This house? This picture of what? This house? This picture of what? This house? This neighborhood? neighborhood? neighborhood? >> Yes. I saw this house in prayer. It >> Yes. I saw this house in prayer. It >> Yes. I saw this house in prayer. It sounds really weird. I kept I was really sounds really weird. I kept I was really sounds really weird. I kept I was really scared to move here. You know, it's so scared to move here. You know, it's so scared to move here. You know, it's so expensive. expensive. expensive. >> House is really hard to find. >> House is really hard to find. >> House is really hard to find. >> Yeah. It's weird up this crazy road. >> Yeah. It's weird up this crazy road. >> Yeah. It's weird up this crazy road. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] And uh as I would pray, I'd get really And uh as I would pray, I'd get really And uh as I would pray, I'd get really anxious about moving here. Are we how anxious about moving here. Are we how anxious about moving here. Are we how are we going to find a house? It's a are we going to find a house? It's a are we going to find a house? It's a small area. We had dreamed about this small area. We had dreamed about this small area. We had dreamed about this area. It's like wild step of faith. I am area. It's like wild step of faith. I am area. It's like wild step of faith. I am not that person. I'm like control feer not that person. I'm like control feer not that person. I'm like control feer leftrain guy.

leftrain guy. leftrain guy. >> And but we we felt that the spirit >> And but we we felt that the spirit >> And but we we felt that the spirit there's couple I won't go into it. It's there's couple I won't go into it. It's there's couple I won't go into it. It's a long story. There was some really a long story. There was some really a long story. There was some really prophetic stuff and this dream and we prophetic stuff and this dream and we prophetic stuff and this dream and we felt like God was saying take a wild sip felt like God was saying take a wild sip felt like God was saying take a wild sip of faith and move to this place that you of faith and move to this place that you of faith and move to this place that you literally had to Google and and it did literally had to Google and and it did literally had to Google and and it did for no reason why. I didn't come here for no reason why. I didn't come here for no reason why. I didn't come here for some job. I didn't come here cuz I'm for some job. I didn't come here cuz I'm for some job. I didn't come here cuz I'm trying to like do ministry to trying to like do ministry to trying to like do ministry to celebrities in LA. No, it was literally celebrities in LA. No, it was literally celebrities in LA. No, it was literally like I dreamed of a place I'd never like I dreamed of a place I'd never like I dreamed of a place I'd never heard of. heard of. heard of. >> It would be hard to do something from >> It would be hard to do something from >> It would be hard to do something from here. here. here. >> Exactly. Can we just put it that way? >> Exactly. Can we just put it that way? >> Exactly. Can we just put it that way? >> And it's really isolated and um and we >> And it's really isolated and um and we >> And it's really isolated and um and we had this incredible community. We had this incredible community. We had this incredible community. We literally knew nobody here. I have a literally knew nobody here. I have a literally knew nobody here. I have a sister in downtown LA. Not a soul up sister in downtown LA. Not a soul up sister in downtown LA. Not a soul up here at the time and uh left a church here at the time and uh left a church here at the time and uh left a church where you're just like right in the where you're just like right in the where you're just like right in the thick of a community. Came down to thick of a community. Came down to thick of a community. Came down to nothing and had this wild dream. Saw in nothing and had this wild dream. Saw in nothing and had this wild dream. Saw in prayer. I would get really anxious prayer. I would get really anxious prayer. I would get really anxious before the move. And I kept seeing these before the move. And I kept seeing these before the move. And I kept seeing these pictures of a house in my mind and like pictures of a house in my mind and like pictures of a house in my mind and like weird details of a house like I kept weird details of a house like I kept weird details of a house like I kept seeing this particular doorork knob. I seeing this particular doorork knob. I seeing this particular doorork knob. I saw this sighting. I saw a Buddha and a saw this sighting. I saw a Buddha and a saw this sighting. I saw a Buddha and a St. Francis statue. just when I say saw St. Francis statue. just when I say saw St. Francis statue. just when I say saw meaning I would just be sitting there in meaning I would just be sitting there in meaning I would just be sitting there in prayer in quiet and these just prayer in quiet and these just prayer in quiet and these just reoccurring I'd have reoccurring reoccurring I'd have reoccurring reoccurring I'd have reoccurring thoughts thoughts thoughts >> and they kept happening. I was like this >> and they kept happening. I was like this >> and they kept happening. I was like this is so weird. At one point I wrote them is so weird. At one point I wrote them is so weird. At one point I wrote them down in a journal and I was like what? I down in a journal and I was like what? I down in a journal and I was like what? I don't know but I see this and I see this don't know but I see this and I see this don't know but I see this and I see this window and I I wrote them down like I window and I I wrote them down like I window and I I wrote them down like I have no idea what that is. We bought have no idea what that is. We bought have no idea what that is. We bought this house actually sight unseen. I was this house actually sight unseen. I was this house actually sight unseen. I was out of the country at the time. We put out of the country at the time. We put out of the country at the time. We put an offer in on this house and I walked an offer in on this house and I walked an offer in on this house and I walked in for the first time a few days after

in for the first time a few days after in for the first time a few days after it was accepted and it had every single it was accepted and it had every single it was accepted and it had every single one of those things I'd seen it break one of those things I'd seen it break one of those things I'd seen it break down to the door knob down to weirdsane. down to the door knob down to weirdsane. down to the door knob down to weirdsane. >> I was like, "Okay, God." But we had no >> I was like, "Okay, God." But we had no >> I was like, "Okay, God." But we had no idea. idea. idea. >> And that's not your typical pattern. >> And that's not your typical pattern. >> And that's not your typical pattern. >> No, I'm not that guy. >> No, I'm not that guy. >> No, I'm not that guy. >> All right. Yeah, >> All right. Yeah, >> All right. Yeah, >> I'll put a pin in this. >> I'll put a pin in this. >> I'll put a pin in this. >> That's so skeptical. I am theologically >> That's so skeptical. I am theologically >> That's so skeptical. I am theologically charismatic, but my brain has been so charismatic, but my brain has been so charismatic, but my brain has been so like Portlandified and like I read too like Portlandified and like I read too like Portlandified and like I read too much. question it a million times. much. question it a million times. much. question it a million times. >> I'm so skeptical by personality. Um, so >> I'm so skeptical by personality. Um, so >> I'm so skeptical by personality. Um, so some people make I think leaps trying to some people make I think leaps trying to some people make I think leaps trying to connect the dots and everything. I connect the dots and everything. I connect the dots and everything. I probably have the opposite weakness if probably have the opposite weakness if probably have the opposite weakness if I'm I'm probably too skeptical of a I'm I'm probably too skeptical of a I'm I'm probably too skeptical of a godsaturated universe. godsaturated universe. godsaturated universe. >> Um, but all that [clears throat] to say, >> Um, but all that [clears throat] to say, >> Um, but all that [clears throat] to say, we didn't even know why God brought us we didn't even know why God brought us we didn't even know why God brought us here. We still don't know for sure, but here. We still don't know for sure, but here. We still don't know for sure, but we we think we have a much better idea we we think we have a much better idea we we think we have a much better idea now. All that to say, that was so hard. now. All that to say, that was so hard. now. All that to say, that was so hard. Losing our community, leaving our Losing our community, leaving our Losing our community, leaving our community. We've not been transient. I community. We've not been transient. I community. We've not been transient. I know many Americans are transient know many Americans are transient know many Americans are transient >> and I just I don't know how people do >> and I just I don't know how people do >> and I just I don't know how people do this. this. this. >> I know 30 years in the same community >> I know 30 years in the same community >> I know 30 years in the same community for us it's I get it. I get it.

for us it's I get it. I get it. for us it's I get it. I get it. >> Well, thanks for sharing that. You know >> Well, thanks for sharing that. You know >> Well, thanks for sharing that. You know what's interesting for the what's interesting for the what's interesting for the >> the non-carismatics in the crowd cuz I >> the non-carismatics in the crowd cuz I >> the non-carismatics in the crowd cuz I grew up Presbyterian mainline, right? grew up Presbyterian mainline, right? grew up Presbyterian mainline, right? And have some Calvinist in me. But it And have some Calvinist in me. But it And have some Calvinist in me. But it was a series of dreams that turned out I was a series of dreams that turned out I was a series of dreams that turned out I had for years turned out to be a had for years turned out to be a had for years turned out to be a confirmation I was to go into ministry. confirmation I was to go into ministry. confirmation I was to go into ministry. So I'm like, are you sure? Are you sure? So I'm like, are you sure? Are you sure? So I'm like, are you sure? Are you sure? I walked into our seminary. I had been I walked into our seminary. I had been I walked into our seminary. I had been dreaming of that classroom for like five dreaming of that classroom for like five dreaming of that classroom for like five or six years. Never been to it. or six years. Never been to it. or six years. Never been to it. >> Never been to it. >> Never been to it. >> Never been to it. >> Crazy. Crazy how that stuff happens. >> Crazy. Crazy how that stuff happens. >> Crazy. Crazy how that stuff happens. >> Just laugh off dreams. >> Just laugh off dreams. >> Just laugh off dreams. >> Yeah. It's like, oh yeah, you just >> Yeah. It's like, oh yeah, you just >> Yeah. It's like, oh yeah, you just wanted to see that. wanted to see that. wanted to see that. >> Almost like we've been co-opted by >> Almost like we've been co-opted by >> Almost like we've been co-opted by secularism and a materialistic view of secularism and a materialistic view of secularism and a materialistic view of the universe. And uh almost the universe. And uh almost the universe. And uh almost >> so let's think more about distraction in >> so let's think more about distraction in >> so let's think more about distraction in the church and distraction in our our the church and distraction in our our the church and distraction in our our personal lives. Um, personal lives. Um, personal lives. Um, you know, let's start in the church you know, let's start in the church you know, let's start in the church because you're right, life is loud. Our because you're right, life is loud. Our because you're right, life is loud. Our services are loud. And one of the things services are loud. And one of the things services are loud. And one of the things I've been drawn to more and more, you I've been drawn to more and more, you I've been drawn to more and more, you know, when I lead a service, which is know, when I lead a service, which is know, when I lead a service, which is not very often these days, but when I not very often these days, but when I not very often these days, but when I when I do when I'm preaching, I'll try when I do when I'm preaching, I'll try when I do when I'm preaching, I'll try to slow down a little bit more. I'll try to slow down a little bit more. I'll try to slow down a little bit more. I'll try to have some intentional silence. Not to have some intentional silence. Not to have some intentional silence. Not like we're all sitting there for five like we're all sitting there for five like we're all sitting there for five minutes in dead silence, but like people minutes in dead silence, but like people minutes in dead silence, but like people get so uncomfortable with it. And I get so uncomfortable with it. And I get so uncomfortable with it. And I realized when I started in ministry, you realized when I started in ministry, you realized when I started in ministry, you know, in the church I grew up in, know, in the church I grew up in, know, in the church I grew up in, mainline church, there was always mainline church, there was always mainline church, there was always silence.

silence. silence. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And as an evangelical pastor, I tried to >> And as an evangelical pastor, I tried to >> And as an evangelical pastor, I tried to fill the silence. It's like no silence. fill the silence. It's like no silence. fill the silence. It's like no silence. >> No dead air. No dead air. No dead air. >> No dead air. No dead air. No dead air. >> No dead air. No dead air. No dead air. No dead. And I did that and I'm like, No dead. And I did that and I'm like, No dead. And I did that and I'm like, "No, I think we need dead air." I think "No, I think we need dead air." I think "No, I think we need dead air." I think people come in and you know that 30 people come in and you know that 30 people come in and you know that 30 seconds, 60 seconds, whatever of silence seconds, 60 seconds, whatever of silence seconds, 60 seconds, whatever of silence you have during prayer, after prayer in you have during prayer, after prayer in you have during prayer, after prayer in a message [snorts] might be the only a message [snorts] might be the only a message [snorts] might be the only silence they had all week. where Alexa silence they had all week. where Alexa silence they had all week. where Alexa wasn't playing something or they weren't wasn't playing something or they weren't wasn't playing something or they weren't listening to a podcast or the kids listening to a podcast or the kids listening to a podcast or the kids weren't screaming. What What are you weren't screaming. What What are you weren't screaming. What What are you thinking about the state of worship, thinking about the state of worship, thinking about the state of worship, silence, and where things are going? One silence, and where things are going? One silence, and where things are going? One of the church trends I wrote about this of the church trends I wrote about this of the church trends I wrote about this year was that I think something's year was that I think something's year was that I think something's shifting in Sunday morning when you shifting in Sunday morning when you shifting in Sunday morning when you think about what you can do online, what think about what you can do online, what think about what you can do online, what you can do in person. you can do in person. you can do in person. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And the two have been >> And the two have been >> And the two have been >> changes the game. >> changes the game. >> changes the game. >> It really does. And online's about >> It really does. And online's about >> It really does. And online's about information. If you can get your Sunday information. If you can get your Sunday information. If you can get your Sunday experience through a web browser, what experience through a web browser, what experience through a web browser, what are we even doing? are we even doing? are we even doing? >> Yeah. What do you think about that? >> Yeah. What do you think about that? >> Yeah. What do you think about that? >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think we >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think we >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think we are missing a moment.

are missing a moment. are missing a moment. >> I think the world is ahead of us right >> I think the world is ahead of us right >> I think the world is ahead of us right now on this one and I think there are now on this one and I think there are now on this one and I think there are reasons for it. Um, you know, you talk reasons for it. Um, you know, you talk reasons for it. Um, you know, you talk about church trends. One trend I'm about church trends. One trend I'm about church trends. One trend I'm following really closely is uh obviously following really closely is uh obviously following really closely is uh obviously all data can be disputed but the claim all data can be disputed but the claim all data can be disputed but the claim is that in the last year or two for the is that in the last year or two for the is that in the last year or two for the first time in 250 first time in 250 first time in 250 years of US history this is an American years of US history this is an American years of US history this is an American stat forgive me stat forgive me stat forgive me >> um but I think it would be somewhat true >> um but I think it would be somewhat true >> um but I think it would be somewhat true >> yeah most of our uh viewers and >> yeah most of our uh viewers and >> yeah most of our uh viewers and listeners are American listeners are American listeners are American >> yes so for the first time in US history, >> yes so for the first time in US history, >> yes so for the first time in US history, the Catholic Church is growing faster the Catholic Church is growing faster the Catholic Church is growing faster than the evangelical church. than the evangelical church. than the evangelical church. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Has never happened. America has a strong >> Has never happened. America has a strong >> Has never happened. America has a strong anti-atholic bias uh that honestly is anti-atholic bias uh that honestly is anti-atholic bias uh that honestly is more political in its orientation more political in its orientation more political in its orientation because of Europe and King James and because of Europe and King James and because of Europe and King James and statism and democracy and the founding statism and democracy and the founding statism and democracy and the founding fathers. So, and like an anti-immigrant fathers. So, and like an anti-immigrant fathers. So, and like an anti-immigrant bias that goes back. So, there's a bias that goes back. So, there's a bias that goes back. So, there's a strong strong like the last area where strong strong like the last area where strong strong like the last area where it's still a liability to be a Catholic it's still a liability to be a Catholic it's still a liability to be a Catholic is in US politics. Um because yeah it is in US politics. Um because yeah it is in US politics. Um because yeah it was really like when JFK was elected it was really like when JFK was elected it was really like when JFK was elected it was like you know you hear people talk was like you know you hear people talk was like you know you hear people talk about how scary it was he was a Catholic about how scary it was he was a Catholic about how scary it was he was a Catholic right so my point is there's a right so my point is there's a right so my point is there's a anti-atholic bias in the United States anti-atholic bias in the United States anti-atholic bias in the United States that's hundreds of years old that's hundreds of years old that's hundreds of years old >> and uh that for people like me we never >> and uh that for people like me we never >> and uh that for people like me we never really get I grew up like after the really get I grew up like after the really get I grew up like after the second Vatican council so Catholicism second Vatican council so Catholicism second Vatican council so Catholicism today is so wildly different than it today is so wildly different than it today is so wildly different than it used to be I grew up in like the Pope used to be I grew up in like the Pope used to be I grew up in like the Pope Francis era was like the bono of the

Francis era was like the bono of the Francis era was like the bono of the popes you know I like so many of the popes you know I like so many of the popes you know I like so many of the spiritual writers I love Nan and spiritual writers I love Nan and spiritual writers I love Nan and Rollheiser and others are Catholics and Rollheiser and others are Catholics and Rollheiser and others are Catholics and the Protestant ones I love are all the Protestant ones I love are all the Protestant ones I love are all quoting Catholics, you know. So, I just quoting Catholics, you know. So, I just quoting Catholics, you know. So, I just I'm not Catholic, but I just don't have I'm not Catholic, but I just don't have I'm not Catholic, but I just don't have that antipathy that most Protestants do that antipathy that most Protestants do that antipathy that most Protestants do or have in previous generations. But or have in previous generations. But or have in previous generations. But first time ever, it's a really big deal. first time ever, it's a really big deal. first time ever, it's a really big deal. And [snorts] so that that is happening, And [snorts] so that that is happening, And [snorts] so that that is happening, my understanding is it's kind of data. my understanding is it's kind of data. my understanding is it's kind of data. It's fact, but why it's happening is, It's fact, but why it's happening is, It's fact, but why it's happening is, you know, wildly open to debate. So, the you know, wildly open to debate. So, the you know, wildly open to debate. So, the two emerging theories that I think are two emerging theories that I think are two emerging theories that I think are the most credible, both are important. the most credible, both are important. the most credible, both are important. The second one more so. First one is The second one more so. First one is The second one more so. First one is that um Catholics did not go through the that um Catholics did not go through the that um Catholics did not go through the uh modernist fundamentalist split that uh modernist fundamentalist split that uh modernist fundamentalist split that the Protestants went through a century the Protestants went through a century the Protestants went through a century ago. ago. ago. >> So if you know your American church >> So if you know your American church >> So if you know your American church history, early 1900s split over social history, early 1900s split over social history, early 1900s split over social justice on one side, the evangelical justice on one side, the evangelical justice on one side, the evangelical gospel on the other. In that split, the gospel on the other. In that split, the gospel on the other. In that split, the what became the liberals or what became the liberals or what became the liberals or progressives, the modernists, the progressives, the modernists, the progressives, the modernists, the mainline traditions, they were made up mainline traditions, they were made up mainline traditions, they were made up of they were more urban, more affluent, of they were more urban, more affluent, of they were more urban, more affluent, better educated and more cultural better educated and more cultural better educated and more cultural elites.

elites. elites. Whereas the fundamentalists tended to be Whereas the fundamentalists tended to be Whereas the fundamentalists tended to be more rural, small town, less educated, more rural, small town, less educated, more rural, small town, less educated, more sectarian, and more orthodox more sectarian, and more orthodox more sectarian, and more orthodox theology. theology. theology. >> And they put their emphasis on biblical >> And they put their emphasis on biblical >> And they put their emphasis on biblical training. They started Bible institutes, training. They started Bible institutes, training. They started Bible institutes, you know, as they started to reject you know, as they started to reject you know, as they started to reject higher education and personal higher education and personal higher education and personal conversion, right? So this split, it's a conversion, right? So this split, it's a conversion, right? So this split, it's a uniquely American thing. It's why I uniquely American thing. It's why I uniquely American thing. It's why I think evangelicalism was so much think evangelicalism was so much think evangelicalism was so much healthier in England than in America. It healthier in England than in America. It healthier in England than in America. It didn't go through that. It's why it didn't go through that. It's why it didn't go through that. It's why it created a John Sto. Yes. created a John Sto. Yes. created a John Sto. Yes. >> You know, that's was harder for an >> You know, that's was harder for an >> You know, that's was harder for an American, somebody like that to grow on American, somebody like that to grow on American, somebody like that to grow on American soil. American soil. American soil. >> So Catholics never went through that. >> So Catholics never went through that. >> So Catholics never went through that. So, um, Catholics have a rich theology So, um, Catholics have a rich theology So, um, Catholics have a rich theology of vocation and culture and the arts. of vocation and culture and the arts. of vocation and culture and the arts. They have a, to me as a more Anabaptist They have a, to me as a more Anabaptist They have a, to me as a more Anabaptist theologically oriented person, they have theologically oriented person, they have theologically oriented person, they have a terrifying level of comfort with a terrifying level of comfort with a terrifying level of comfort with power, you [laughter] know, because power, you [laughter] know, because power, you [laughter] know, because they've been in, they've been holding they've been in, they've been holding they've been in, they've been holding state power, military power for hundreds state power, military power for hundreds state power, military power for hundreds and hundreds of years. They have a and hundreds of years. They have a and hundreds of years. They have a robust social ethic that uh can even go robust social ethic that uh can even go robust social ethic that uh can even go across the partisan divides of America across the partisan divides of America across the partisan divides of America in a holistic view of the human p in a holistic view of the human p in a holistic view of the human p person. And so there there if you are an person. And so there there if you are an person. And so there there if you are an emerging cultural elite in America who emerging cultural elite in America who emerging cultural elite in America who is a Christian, is a Christian, is a Christian, Catholicism is generally probably going Catholicism is generally probably going Catholicism is generally probably going to offer you better resources than the to offer you better resources than the to offer you better resources than the Protestant tradition. So if you go into Protestant tradition. So if you go into Protestant tradition. So if you go into cultural elite rooms, if you want to go cultural elite rooms, if you want to go cultural elite rooms, if you want to go into the boardrooms of New York City,

into the boardrooms of New York City, into the boardrooms of New York City, the mainstream media floors of DC or a, the mainstream media floors of DC or a, the mainstream media floors of DC or a, you know, a set in Hollywood here, and you know, a set in Hollywood here, and you know, a set in Hollywood here, and if you search around for a serious if you search around for a serious if you search around for a serious Christian, they're hard to find. And if Christian, they're hard to find. And if Christian, they're hard to find. And if you find one, the odds are going to be you find one, the odds are going to be you find one, the odds are going to be really high that they're Catholic and really high that they're Catholic and really high that they're Catholic and not Protestants not Protestants not Protestants >> because they just are in many ways, >> because they just are in many ways, >> because they just are in many ways, they're just better. I'm not saying I'm they're just better. I'm not saying I'm they're just better. I'm not saying I'm not moralizing this, just to clarify. not moralizing this, just to clarify. not moralizing this, just to clarify. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here. I'm just analyzing. All right, so that's I'm just analyzing. All right, so that's I'm just analyzing. All right, so that's one reason. And you know, Mark Null in one reason. And you know, Mark Null in one reason. And you know, Mark Null in the 90s wrote the sk the scandal of the the 90s wrote the sk the scandal of the the 90s wrote the sk the scandal of the evangelical mind. Punch line is the evangelical mind. Punch line is the evangelical mind. Punch line is the evangelicals have no mind. And the nice evangelicals have no mind. And the nice evangelicals have no mind. And the nice thing about that is I think that one is thing about that is I think that one is thing about that is I think that one is selfcorrecting. I I look at the work of selfcorrecting. I I look at the work of selfcorrecting. I I look at the work of some of the best evangelical seminaries. some of the best evangelical seminaries. some of the best evangelical seminaries. I think of just the rich like outpouring I think of just the rich like outpouring I think of just the rich like outpouring of scholarship, you know, uh in the last of scholarship, you know, uh in the last of scholarship, you know, uh in the last 30, 40 years from just beautiful 30, 40 years from just beautiful 30, 40 years from just beautiful biblical scholars. I think of the rich biblical scholars. I think of the rich biblical scholars. I think of the rich work that Keller at a popular level and work that Keller at a popular level and work that Keller at a popular level and others did on theology of vocation, the others did on theology of vocation, the others did on theology of vocation, the work happening in the arts. I think it's work happening in the arts. I think it's work happening in the arts. I think it's self-correcting and I think it will I self-correcting and I think it will I self-correcting and I think it will I think it already is and will continue to think it already is and will continue to think it already is and will continue to come around. The church today is not the come around. The church today is not the come around. The church today is not the church I grew up in as far as how church I grew up in as far as how church I grew up in as far as how Protestants think about culture. But the Protestants think about culture. But the Protestants think about culture. But the second one, I don't think we're coming second one, I don't think we're coming second one, I don't think we're coming around at all on the second theory for around at all on the second theory for around at all on the second theory for why Catholicism is growing faster, why Catholicism is growing faster, why Catholicism is growing faster, especially among young people, than especially among young people, than especially among young people, than evangelicalism, is because it's quieter.

evangelicalism, is because it's quieter. evangelicalism, is because it's quieter. That young people, secularism is That young people, secularism is That young people, secularism is breaking down. My friend Pete Hughes in breaking down. My friend Pete Hughes in breaking down. My friend Pete Hughes in London calls it the shaking of London calls it the shaking of London calls it the shaking of secularism. It's a profound cultural secularism. It's a profound cultural secularism. It's a profound cultural moment. We're moving from moment. We're moving from moment. We're moving from post-Christianity to post secularity as post-Christianity to post secularity as post-Christianity to post secularity as well. And they're both at the same time. well. And they're both at the same time. well. And they're both at the same time. It's not one or the other. And the It's not one or the other. And the It's not one or the other. And the secular story is breaking down. People secular story is breaking down. People secular story is breaking down. People cannot live without meaning. There's a cannot live without meaning. There's a cannot live without meaning. There's a explosion in spirituality amongst my age explosion in spirituality amongst my age explosion in spirituality amongst my age down and even now emerging from cultural down and even now emerging from cultural down and even now emerging from cultural elites which in the past would have been elites which in the past would have been elites which in the past would have been much more Darwinian materialistic. much more Darwinian materialistic. much more Darwinian materialistic. >> Oh yeah. Podcasters. >> Oh yeah. Podcasters. >> Oh yeah. Podcasters. >> Yeah. The world teller is ministering to >> Yeah. The world teller is ministering to >> Yeah. The world teller is ministering to is a secular Darwinian humanitarian, you is a secular Darwinian humanitarian, you is a secular Darwinian humanitarian, you know, kind of world. That is not the LA know, kind of world. That is not the LA know, kind of world. That is not the LA that I live in. It's wildly spiritual. that I live in. It's wildly spiritual. that I live in. It's wildly spiritual. It's not Rick Rubin. That's not It's not Rick Rubin. That's not It's not Rick Rubin. That's not Elizabeth Gilbert. That's not Coldplay. Elizabeth Gilbert. That's not Coldplay. Elizabeth Gilbert. That's not Coldplay. These people are post-Christian and These people are post-Christian and These people are post-Christian and postsecular. postsecular. postsecular. >> And um so there's this awakening of >> And um so there's this awakening of >> And um so there's this awakening of spirituality. And there are many people spirituality. And there are many people spirituality. And there are many people that are very comfortable coming into that are very comfortable coming into that are very comfortable coming into the rock concerts of passionate the rock concerts of passionate the rock concerts of passionate evangelical churches. But there are many evangelical churches. But there are many evangelical churches. But there are many many others that do not want that and many others that do not want that and many others that do not want that and are actively saying no and instead are are actively saying no and instead are are actively saying no and instead are opting for a Catholic expression of opting for a Catholic expression of opting for a Catholic expression of faith which again wide you know swath faith which again wide you know swath faith which again wide you know swath general trends tends to be so much general trends tends to be so much general trends tends to be so much quieter. So I had this profound moment quieter. So I had this profound moment quieter. So I had this profound moment Carrie I had a dear friend of mine the Carrie I had a dear friend of mine the Carrie I had a dear friend of mine the story is a bit old one of my closest story is a bit old one of my closest story is a bit old one of my closest friends at the time and uh he moved away

friends at the time and uh he moved away friends at the time and uh he moved away from Portland to go get his PhD at our from Portland to go get his PhD at our from Portland to go get his PhD at our encouragement. This guy was brilliant. encouragement. This guy was brilliant. encouragement. This guy was brilliant. were like, "Man, you need to you need to were like, "Man, you need to you need to were like, "Man, you need to you need to you need to be a literature professor." you need to be a literature professor." you need to be a literature professor." So, he moved away and we kind of lost So, he moved away and we kind of lost So, he moved away and we kind of lost touch, didn't stay in touch well for no touch, didn't stay in touch well for no touch, didn't stay in touch well for no bad reason, just and um then word got bad reason, just and um then word got bad reason, just and um then word got back that he had become a Catholic and back that he had become a Catholic and back that he had become a Catholic and he came out of this like staunchly he came out of this like staunchly he came out of this like staunchly evangelical home. His parents were both, evangelical home. His parents were both, evangelical home. His parents were both, you know, they would say saved out of you know, they would say saved out of you know, they would say saved out of Catholicism. That was the language that Catholicism. That was the language that Catholicism. That was the language that I grew up with. And uh so it was just I grew up with. And uh so it was just I grew up with. And uh so it was just like all this drama. You know, his like all this drama. You know, his like all this drama. You know, his family was in our church and there was family was in our church and there was family was in our church and there was just all this drama. And I know, you just all this drama. And I know, you just all this drama. And I know, you know, for some people that should code know, for some people that should code know, for some people that should code for they're not really a Christian. for they're not really a Christian. for they're not really a Christian. >> Yeah. They're not a Christian. They've >> Yeah. They're not a Christian. They've >> Yeah. They're not a Christian. They've left the faith. They've left the faith. left the faith. They've left the faith. left the faith. They've left the faith. He's nominal. He's nominal. He's nominal. >> And so I sat with him and it was the >> And so I sat with him and it was the >> And so I sat with him and it was the opposite. He was just thriving in his opposite. He was just thriving in his opposite. He was just thriving in his walk with God. I saw him recently. He walk with God. I saw him recently. He walk with God. I saw him recently. He came over for a motorcycle ride and we came over for a motorcycle ride and we came over for a motorcycle ride and we had the best. He is just thriving, rich had the best. He is just thriving, rich had the best. He is just thriving, rich life of prayer, fantastic family. And life of prayer, fantastic family. And life of prayer, fantastic family. And he'd left our church over this. And I he'd left our church over this. And I he'd left our church over this. And I asked him like, and it was again, it asked him like, and it was again, it asked him like, and it was again, it wasn't a loaded question from me. it was wasn't a loaded question from me. it was wasn't a loaded question from me. it was from others but I was like why like why from others but I was like why like why from others but I was like why like why did you change like why did you opt for did you change like why did you opt for did you change like why did you opt for you know I don't think I said convert to you know I don't think I said convert to you know I don't think I said convert to Catholicism but whatever the right Catholicism but whatever the right Catholicism but whatever the right nomenclature is and it was so nomenclature is and it was so nomenclature is and it was so interesting he gave two reasons he said interesting he gave two reasons he said interesting he gave two reasons he said I really wanted to work more on myself I really wanted to work more on myself I really wanted to work more on myself to become a better person to become a better person to become a better person and two I wanted a church that was less and two I wanted a church that was less and two I wanted a church that was less noisy noisy noisy >> and I just remember it really imprinted

>> and I just remember it really imprinted >> and I just remember it really imprinted on me cuz Here is somebody who I love on me cuz Here is somebody who I love on me cuz Here is somebody who I love and have a relational connection to and have a relational connection to and have a relational connection to who's in our church, who's in our church, who's in our church, loves God, and they feel they have to loves God, and they feel they have to loves God, and they feel they have to leave our church one because something leave our church one because something leave our church one because something about the way we're doing church and about the way we're doing church and about the way we're doing church and something about our preaching, our something about our preaching, our something about our preaching, our teaching makes them one feel like they teaching makes them one feel like they teaching makes them one feel like they can't work on becoming a more Christlike can't work on becoming a more Christlike can't work on becoming a more Christlike person, person, person, >> which is the body of your life's work. >> which is the body of your life's work. >> which is the body of your life's work. to the body of my life's work and to the body of my life's work and to the body of my life's work and weirdly out of place in large streams of weirdly out of place in large streams of weirdly out of place in large streams of the evangelical and Protestant church the evangelical and Protestant church the evangelical and Protestant church and two they just want something and two they just want something and two they just want something quieter. quieter. quieter. >> So if you look at like the ex the world >> So if you look at like the ex the world >> So if you look at like the ex the world is ahead of us here because it knows how is ahead of us here because it knows how is ahead of us here because it knows how to monetize everything. So it sees okay to monetize everything. So it sees okay to monetize everything. So it sees okay people are addicted to their phones. people are addicted to their phones. people are addicted to their phones. We'll we'll give them an app on their We'll we'll give them an app on their We'll we'll give them an app on their phone to get off of their phone and phone to get off of their phone and phone to get off of their phone and we'll charge them $9.99 a month to use we'll charge them $9.99 a month to use we'll charge them $9.99 a month to use our homepace app or whatever headsp our homepace app or whatever headsp our homepace app or whatever headsp space app. And so the world knows how to space app. And so the world knows how to space app. And so the world knows how to monetize this. So like the meditation monetize this. So like the meditation monetize this. So like the meditation like there's all these now like quasi like there's all these now like quasi like there's all these now like quasi secular meditation studios and these secular meditation studios and these secular meditation studios and these aren't like praying to demons. These are aren't like praying to demons. These are aren't like praying to demons. These are just like people who pay money to sit on just like people who pay money to sit on just like people who pay money to sit on the floor and have somebody help them the floor and have somebody help them the floor and have somebody help them breathe and like let go of their breathe and like let go of their breathe and like let go of their negative rumination and their thoughts.

negative rumination and their thoughts. negative rumination and their thoughts. Like they're paying money for this. and Like they're paying money for this. and Like they're paying money for this. and you know um Keing a lot of his work you know um Keing a lot of his work you know um Keing a lot of his work around centering prayer and again I around centering prayer and again I around centering prayer and again I don't endorse all of his theology but don't endorse all of his theology but don't endorse all of his theology but his grief was writing in the 60s and 70s his grief was writing in the 60s and 70s his grief was writing in the 60s and 70s he saw all of these he was Catholic he he saw all of these he was Catholic he he saw all of these he was Catholic he saw all these Catholics leave the faith saw all these Catholics leave the faith saw all these Catholics leave the faith and go over with the Beatles to new age and go over with the Beatles to new age and go over with the Beatles to new age eastern religion because they wanted a eastern religion because they wanted a eastern religion because they wanted a more meditative contemplative experience more meditative contemplative experience more meditative contemplative experience and he was like whoa whoa whoa we have and he was like whoa whoa whoa we have and he was like whoa whoa whoa we have it we have thousands of years of like it we have thousands of years of like it we have thousands of years of like not only do you get meditation you get not only do you get meditation you get not only do you get meditation you get union with the trinity of love. It's not union with the trinity of love. It's not union with the trinity of love. It's not just like mindfulness where you like get just like mindfulness where you like get just like mindfulness where you like get your monkey brain under control. It's your monkey brain under control. It's your monkey brain under control. It's like actually experiencing like actually experiencing like actually experiencing the love of God in the deepest core of the love of God in the deepest core of the love of God in the deepest core of your being. It's everything you get your being. It's everything you get your being. It's everything you get from, you know, mindfulness and a from, you know, mindfulness and a from, you know, mindfulness and a thousand things more. But people thought thousand things more. But people thought thousand things more. But people thought they had to leave the church and leave they had to leave the church and leave they had to leave the church and leave the faith in order to get something that the faith in order to get something that the faith in order to get something that was actually there all along but had was actually there all along but had was actually there all along but had been lost by the Western church. And been lost by the Western church. And been lost by the Western church. And he's right as a Catholic. And so I do he's right as a Catholic. And so I do he's right as a Catholic. And so I do think there's a moment here where the think there's a moment here where the think there's a moment here where the the American and British church has been the American and British church has been the American and British church has been so deeply shaped by revivalism so deeply shaped by revivalism so deeply shaped by revivalism and we can debate about that.

and we can debate about that. and we can debate about that. >> But I think every thing even if it's a >> But I think every thing even if it's a >> But I think every thing even if it's a good thing comes with dangers. And I good thing comes with dangers. And I good thing comes with dangers. And I think part of the danger not of revival think part of the danger not of revival think part of the danger not of revival but of revivalism which is a different but of revivalism which is a different but of revivalism which is a different thing which is more of a attitude, a thing which is more of a attitude, a thing which is more of a attitude, a strategy, a mood, an atmosphere, a strategy, a mood, an atmosphere, a strategy, a mood, an atmosphere, a culture culture culture is it lends itself I think toward large is it lends itself I think toward large is it lends itself I think toward large attractional attractional attractional eventbased church that requires and eventbased church that requires and eventbased church that requires and tries to drum up a huge amount of tries to drum up a huge amount of tries to drum up a huge amount of emotional fervor from people. emotional fervor from people. emotional fervor from people. And I think gosh, there's a time and a And I think gosh, there's a time and a And I think gosh, there's a time and a place for everything. Certainly, I think place for everything. Certainly, I think place for everything. Certainly, I think that is profoundly out of touch with that is profoundly out of touch with that is profoundly out of touch with where people are walking into church so where people are walking into church so where people are walking into church so absolutely exhausted, absolutely exhausted, absolutely exhausted, so mind fried and digitally distracted so mind fried and digitally distracted so mind fried and digitally distracted they can barely even like read a psalm they can barely even like read a psalm they can barely even like read a psalm in the morning, much less commune with in the morning, much less commune with in the morning, much less commune with God in contemplative prayer. And so, you God in contemplative prayer. And so, you God in contemplative prayer. And so, you know, my dream is that Sunday would feel know, my dream is that Sunday would feel know, my dream is that Sunday would feel more like the Leo 365 prayer app than more like the Leo 365 prayer app than more like the Leo 365 prayer app than like a rock concert. And and that it like a rock concert. And and that it like a rock concert. And and that it would be a place where we can calm would be a place where we can calm would be a place where we can calm where instead of being stirred up, we where instead of being stirred up, we where instead of being stirred up, we can come to quiet. You know, I think can come to quiet. You know, I think can come to quiet. You know, I think it's a a real mistake to define passion it's a a real mistake to define passion it's a a real mistake to define passion as emotional intensity.

as emotional intensity. as emotional intensity. I think that is a confusion of category. I think that is a confusion of category. I think that is a confusion of category. Passion biblically and historically the Passion biblically and historically the Passion biblically and historically the passion of the Christ referring to the passion of the Christ referring to the passion of the Christ referring to the last week of Christ's life. Passion is last week of Christ's life. Passion is last week of Christ's life. Passion is what you are willing to suffer and die what you are willing to suffer and die what you are willing to suffer and die for. for. for. And often it requires not emotional And often it requires not emotional And often it requires not emotional intensity what calls what the New intensity what calls what the New intensity what calls what the New Testament writers call patient Testament writers call patient Testament writers call patient endurance. You're most passionate about endurance. You're most passionate about endurance. You're most passionate about what you will most patiently quietly what you will most patiently quietly what you will most patiently quietly endure for a long period of time even endure for a long period of time even endure for a long period of time even though it's painful. It's suffering though it's painful. It's suffering though it's painful. It's suffering love. that's your passion. And um I love. that's your passion. And um I love. that's your passion. And um I think we need to understand that, you think we need to understand that, you think we need to understand that, you know, I think the early Christians got know, I think the early Christians got know, I think the early Christians got this. And again, this doesn't mean throw this. And again, this doesn't mean throw this. And again, this doesn't mean throw out the baby at the bathwater of the the out the baby at the bathwater of the the out the baby at the bathwater of the the British American emphasis on revivalism, British American emphasis on revivalism, British American emphasis on revivalism, but the early Christians, they were in but the early Christians, they were in but the early Christians, they were in a, you know, pre-Christian culture. They a, you know, pre-Christian culture. They a, you know, pre-Christian culture. They weren't trying to revive a nominal weren't trying to revive a nominal weren't trying to revive a nominal Christian culture. And so their emphasis Christian culture. And so their emphasis Christian culture. And so their emphasis was on they actually used the word was on they actually used the word was on they actually used the word dispassion was the goal like maturity dispassion was the goal like maturity dispassion was the goal like maturity was coming to this place of such peace was coming to this place of such peace was coming to this place of such peace >> and tranquility >> and tranquility >> and tranquility like early Christian art used to um like early Christian art used to um like early Christian art used to um bother me because the saints all looked bother me because the saints all looked bother me because the saints all looked dower to me none of them were smiling dower to me none of them were smiling dower to me none of them were smiling right I'm a modern American like you right I'm a modern American like you right I'm a modern American like you smile for the camera peace out you know smile for the camera peace out you know smile for the camera peace out you know like what's up hi every such a goofy like what's up hi every such a goofy like what's up hi every such a goofy American modern thing to do not not even American modern thing to do not not even American modern thing to do not not even American like modern like American American like modern like American American like modern like American from the 1890s and everybody looks from the 1890s and everybody looks from the 1890s and everybody looks >> der >> der >> der >> and then I read this beautiful like >> and then I read this beautiful like >> and then I read this beautiful like interpretation of ancient Christian art

interpretation of ancient Christian art interpretation of ancient Christian art and said no no no they're not der and said no no no they're not der and said no no no they're not der smiling and the reason they look so calm smiling and the reason they look so calm smiling and the reason they look so calm is the artists are trying to convey you is the artists are trying to convey you is the artists are trying to convey you know the ancient Christian word was know the ancient Christian word was know the ancient Christian word was apathetia that peace and tranquility apathetia that peace and tranquility apathetia that peace and tranquility that they have reached such a level of that they have reached such a level of that they have reached such a level of spiritual maturity they're totally free spiritual maturity they're totally free spiritual maturity they're totally free of the world they're like unflapable of the world they're like unflapable of the world they're like unflapable they're Jesus asleep leap on the boat. they're Jesus asleep leap on the boat. they're Jesus asleep leap on the boat. They're, you know, Jesus in the garden, They're, you know, Jesus in the garden, They're, you know, Jesus in the garden, not my will but yours be done. They're not my will but yours be done. They're not my will but yours be done. They're Paul like to live as Christ to die is Paul like to live as Christ to die is Paul like to live as Christ to die is gained. Like I only must testify to God. gained. Like I only must testify to God. gained. Like I only must testify to God. Like they're just totally free. That's Like they're just totally free. That's Like they're just totally free. That's what it's communicating. Not like that what it's communicating. Not like that what it's communicating. Not like that they're depressive or unhappy. These are they're depressive or unhappy. These are they're depressive or unhappy. These are deeply joyful people. They're lit. Their deeply joyful people. They're lit. Their deeply joyful people. They're lit. Their light comes from the inside. Ancient light comes from the inside. Ancient light comes from the inside. Ancient Christian art, there's no shadows like Christian art, there's no shadows like Christian art, there's no shadows like modern art. The light comes from inside modern art. The light comes from inside modern art. The light comes from inside the eyes and the face of the characters. the eyes and the face of the characters. the eyes and the face of the characters. And that was their picture of spiritual And that was their picture of spiritual And that was their picture of spiritual maturity. You radiate light from within, maturity. You radiate light from within, maturity. You radiate light from within, but it's a peaceful light. So I just but it's a peaceful light. So I just but it's a peaceful light. So I just think that's a spirituality think that's a spirituality think that's a spirituality that we need to recapture that's in our that we need to recapture that's in our that we need to recapture that's in our genetic history as Christians. And um I genetic history as Christians. And um I genetic history as Christians. And um I I do think this is an area where much of I do think this is an area where much of I do think this is an area where much of the church is missing an opportunity of the church is missing an opportunity of the church is missing an opportunity of a lifetime a lifetime a lifetime where um in the same way that there was where um in the same way that there was where um in the same way that there was a time where Sunday services took their a time where Sunday services took their a time where Sunday services took their cues from YouTube concerts.

cues from YouTube concerts. cues from YouTube concerts. And I'm not even saying that was not a And I'm not even saying that was not a And I'm not even saying that was not a great idea. great idea. great idea. >> I think it was a cultural moment >> I think it was a cultural moment >> I think it was a cultural moment >> and still is I think in certain places. >> and still is I think in certain places. >> and still is I think in certain places. But I wonder if now we need to take our But I wonder if now we need to take our But I wonder if now we need to take our cues from again Electio 365 prayer app cues from again Electio 365 prayer app cues from again Electio 365 prayer app or you know um and all of that's in the or you know um and all of that's in the or you know um and all of that's in the history of the church. We don't have to history of the church. We don't have to history of the church. We don't have to reinvent anything. It's all reinvent anything. It's all reinvent anything. It's all >> this is not new. >> this is not new. >> this is not new. >> It's not new and a much of it's still >> It's not new and a much of it's still >> It's not new and a much of it's still very popular outside of our tradition, very popular outside of our tradition, very popular outside of our tradition, you know. you know. you know. >> My goodness, I'll tell you the time has >> My goodness, I'll tell you the time has >> My goodness, I'll tell you the time has flown. John Mark, any final thought? flown. John Mark, any final thought? flown. John Mark, any final thought? We've covered a lot. I would just say don't be afraid of the I would just say don't be afraid of the quiet. Fear keeps us Fear keeps us from the quiet, which keeps us from from the quiet, which keeps us from from the quiet, which keeps us from facing who we truly are, which keeps us facing who we truly are, which keeps us facing who we truly are, which keeps us from finding who we are called to be, from finding who we are called to be, from finding who we are called to be, which keeps us from leading churches, which keeps us from leading churches, which keeps us from leading churches, organizations, communities organizations, communities organizations, communities into the destiny that God has for them into the destiny that God has for them into the destiny that God has for them and for us.

and for us. and for us. So just So just So just banish fear from your heart, one prayer banish fear from your heart, one prayer banish fear from your heart, one prayer at a time. at a time. at a time. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Go into the quiet >> Go into the quiet >> Go into the quiet peacefully and gently accept what comes. peacefully and gently accept what comes. peacefully and gently accept what comes. Stay there long enough. You have to be Stay there long enough. You have to be Stay there long enough. You have to be patient. Anything I'm learning. I I was patient. Anything I'm learning. I I was patient. Anything I'm learning. I I was so convicted. Carrie just, so convicted. Carrie just, so convicted. Carrie just, >> you know, we're recording this in >> you know, we're recording this in >> you know, we're recording this in December and doing my read through the December and doing my read through the December and doing my read through the Bible thing and Bible thing and Bible thing and >> finished a few weeks earlier for once >> finished a few weeks earlier for once >> finished a few weeks earlier for once and just reading through Revelation, and just reading through Revelation, and just reading through Revelation, which I think is such an applicable book which I think is such an applicable book which I think is such an applicable book for our time and just the amount of time for our time and just the amount of time for our time and just the amount of time that phrase patient endurance comes up. that phrase patient endurance comes up. that phrase patient endurance comes up. This calls for patient endurance. I was This calls for patient endurance. I was This calls for patient endurance. I was just so convicted like I have so little just so convicted like I have so little just so convicted like I have so little patience much less endurance patience much less endurance patience much less endurance >> just like get me out you know and uh the >> just like get me out you know and uh the >> just like get me out you know and uh the patience required to just stay with the patience required to just stay with the patience required to just stay with the quiet stay with the work stay with the quiet stay with the work stay with the quiet stay with the work stay with the process stay with the calling of God on process stay with the calling of God on process stay with the calling of God on us stay with dreams that may take many us stay with dreams that may take many us stay with dreams that may take many years before they even start to come to years before they even start to come to years before they even start to come to pass much less finish pass much less finish pass much less finish um we live in an impatient age and I um we live in an impatient age and I um we live in an impatient age and I want to the people of patience. Um, most want to the people of patience. Um, most want to the people of patience. Um, most influential book I read this year. I influential book I read this year. I influential book I read this year. I read a lot. I finally got around to read a lot. I finally got around to read a lot. I finally got around to reading uh Alan Krider's Patient Ferment reading uh Alan Krider's Patient Ferment reading uh Alan Krider's Patient Ferment of the Early Church. I would I mean I of the Early Church. I would I mean I of the Early Church. I would I mean I don't know.

don't know. don't know. >> You never heard [clears throat] of it. >> You never heard [clears throat] of it. >> You never heard [clears throat] of it. >> I would definitely say top 10 books of >> I would definitely say top 10 books of >> I would definitely say top 10 books of all time. all time. all time. >> Wow. And >> Wow. And >> Wow. And >> we'll link to it in the show notes. >> we'll link to it in the show notes. >> we'll link to it in the show notes. >> Yeah. what I call uh you know hurry he >> Yeah. what I call uh you know hurry he >> Yeah. what I call uh you know hurry he would say that the early Christians used would say that the early Christians used would say that the early Christians used the language of patience for a similar the language of patience for a similar the language of patience for a similar or same idea obviously in a you know or same idea obviously in a you know or same idea obviously in a you know early church setting and he just points early church setting and he just points early church setting and he just points out that the first treatise on a virtue out that the first treatise on a virtue out that the first treatise on a virtue that the Christians ever wrote was not that the Christians ever wrote was not that the Christians ever wrote was not on love was not on faith was not on hope on love was not on faith was not on hope on love was not on faith was not on hope it was on patience and then he points it was on patience and then he points it was on patience and then he points out that they wrote not one but agree out that they wrote not one but agree out that they wrote not one but agree on patience. And you know, we look at on patience. And you know, we look at on patience. And you know, we look at the early church as this explosive the early church as this explosive the early church as this explosive revival, this move of God sweeping the revival, this move of God sweeping the revival, this move of God sweeping the Roman Empire. And he's like, "Yeah, it Roman Empire. And he's like, "Yeah, it Roman Empire. And he's like, "Yeah, it was." But it happened over three plus was." But it happened over three plus was." But it happened over three plus centuries. centuries. centuries. >> So we can look back on it and be like, >> So we can look back on it and be like, >> So we can look back on it and be like, "Yeah, that was like a sweeping move of "Yeah, that was like a sweeping move of "Yeah, that was like a sweeping move of God." But nobody if you're gas in the God." But nobody if you're gas in the God." But nobody if you're gas in the church in Corenth and Paul writes you a church in Corenth and Paul writes you a church in Corenth and Paul writes you a letter and you have 30 people in your letter and you have 30 people in your letter and you have 30 people in your church and maybe you die and there's church and maybe you die and there's church and maybe you die and there's maybe 85 people in your church. It maybe 85 people in your church. It maybe 85 people in your church. It wouldn't have felt like we are part of a wouldn't have felt like we are part of a wouldn't have felt like we are part of a sweeping move of God that's changing the sweeping move of God that's changing the sweeping move of God that's changing the course of human history. It would have course of human history. It would have course of human history. It would have just felt like we're a tiny little house just felt like we're a tiny little house just felt like we're a tiny little house church underneath the thumb of the church underneath the thumb of the church underneath the thumb of the empire and let's die faithful. And so I empire and let's die faithful. And so I empire and let's die faithful. And so I just think man the the undervalued role.

just think man the the undervalued role. just think man the the undervalued role. I think there are some things that we I think there are some things that we I think there are some things that we have undervalued. Quiet, solitude, have undervalued. Quiet, solitude, have undervalued. Quiet, solitude, community, patience, hiddenness, community, patience, hiddenness, community, patience, hiddenness, contemplation. And I think it's time to contemplation. And I think it's time to contemplation. And I think it's time to go back and again I've been drifting go back and again I've been drifting go back and again I've been drifting backward. So I'm biased. I backward. So I'm biased. I backward. So I'm biased. I >> Good. I'm glad on behalf of all of us >> Good. I'm glad on behalf of all of us >> Good. I'm glad on behalf of all of us that you're doing historic church. And I that you're doing historic church. And I that you're doing historic church. And I I'm going to I I love it and it has I'm going to I I love it and it has I'm going to I I love it and it has enriched my faith in ways I can't put enriched my faith in ways I can't put enriched my faith in ways I can't put into words. into words. into words. >> And I think there's some stuff we've >> And I think there's some stuff we've >> And I think there's some stuff we've lost. You know, Jesus, lost. You know, Jesus, lost. You know, Jesus, one of my favorite parables of Jesus is one of my favorite parables of Jesus is one of my favorite parables of Jesus is where he talks about the scribe or the where he talks about the scribe or the where he talks about the scribe or the teacher in the kingdom of heaven who teacher in the kingdom of heaven who teacher in the kingdom of heaven who brings out of the storehouse treasures brings out of the storehouse treasures brings out of the storehouse treasures old and new. [clears throat] old and new. [clears throat] old and new. [clears throat] >> And I just think the global historic >> And I just think the global historic >> And I just think the global historic church of Jesus church of Jesus church of Jesus has treasures. Yes. has treasures. Yes. has treasures. Yes. >> And some of them we still hold. >> And some of them we still hold. >> And some of them we still hold. Scripture, preaching, evangelism, Scripture, preaching, evangelism, Scripture, preaching, evangelism, but there are some we've really lost.

but there are some we've really lost. but there are some we've really lost. And I think we don't have to go to the And I think we don't have to go to the And I think we don't have to go to the left or the right. Uh better versions of left or the right. Uh better versions of left or the right. Uh better versions of everything is found backward in the everything is found backward in the everything is found backward in the story of God in the church of Jesus story of God in the church of Jesus story of God in the church of Jesus through history. And there's a treasure through history. And there's a treasure through history. And there's a treasure house of the long the after effect of house of the long the after effect of house of the long the after effect of Jesus that um we're stewards of. Jesus that um we're stewards of. Jesus that um we're stewards of. >> This is rich. You know, uh it's been so >> This is rich. You know, uh it's been so >> This is rich. You know, uh it's been so good, but it feels I read the book of good, but it feels I read the book of good, but it feels I read the book of Jude today in my personal readings. Jude today in my personal readings. Jude today in my personal readings. Revelation starts tomorrow for me. Revelation starts tomorrow for me. Revelation starts tomorrow for me. >> There it is. >> There it is. >> There it is. >> And I'm like, this feels like Jude. This >> And I'm like, this feels like Jude. This >> And I'm like, this feels like Jude. This should have been Revelation 21 chapters should have been Revelation 21 chapters should have been Revelation 21 chapters long, 22. But it's uh it's it's just long, 22. But it's uh it's it's just long, 22. But it's uh it's it's just it's so rich even in the time we've had. it's so rich even in the time we've had. it's so rich even in the time we've had. >> This coming out in January, your book >> This coming out in January, your book >> This coming out in January, your book probably won't be ready. probably won't be ready. probably won't be ready. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> But if it comes out in the future, some >> But if it comes out in the future, some >> But if it comes out in the future, some of the things we've been talking about. of the things we've been talking about. of the things we've been talking about. >> No, it will. Yeah, it comes out in God >> No, it will. Yeah, it comes out in God >> No, it will. Yeah, it comes out in God willing in October unless if I die on my willing in October unless if I die on my willing in October unless if I die on my motorcycle. motorcycle. motorcycle. >> But nowadays, it will still come out. >> But nowadays, it will still come out. >> But nowadays, it will still come out. Just won't be edited as well. Just won't be edited as well. Just won't be edited as well. >> That's right. That's right. >> That's right. That's right. >> That's right. That's right. >> Absolutely. Right now. >> Absolutely. Right now. >> Absolutely. Right now. >> And so there'll be a new book in >> And so there'll be a new book in >> And so there'll be a new book in October. It'll be about quiet, solitude, October. It'll be about quiet, solitude, October. It'll be about quiet, solitude, contemplation. out. It's a It's an contemplation. out. It's a It's an contemplation. out. It's a It's an invitation to a quieter invitation to a quieter invitation to a quieter walk with God.

walk with God. walk with God. >> That's great, John Mark. Thank you. >> That's great, John Mark. Thank you. >> That's great, John Mark. Thank you. >> Bless you, Carrie. It's an honor to chat >> Bless you, Carrie. It's an honor to chat >> Bless you, Carrie. It's an honor to chat to you. to you. to you. >> That was a really riveting interview. >> That was a really riveting interview. >> That was a really riveting interview. And I really feel like I said to John And I really feel like I said to John And I really feel like I said to John Mark, I'm like, "Okay, next time we got Mark, I'm like, "Okay, next time we got Mark, I'm like, "Okay, next time we got a book like 3 hours cuz I didn't even a book like 3 hours cuz I didn't even a book like 3 hours cuz I didn't even touch my questions." You just sort of touch my questions." You just sort of touch my questions." You just sort of ask question one and away you go. If you ask question one and away you go. If you ask question one and away you go. If you want more, we have show notes. You can want more, we have show notes. You can want more, we have show notes. You can find everything in the art of find everything in the art of find everything in the art of leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. and go there, sign up, join over 15,000 and go there, sign up, join over 15,000 and go there, sign up, join over 15,000 leaders in the academy. Probably by the leaders in the academy. Probably by the leaders in the academy. Probably by the time you're watching this, it's like, I time you're watching this, it's like, I time you're watching this, it's like, I don't know, 17,000, 20,000 leaders. What don't know, 17,000, 20,000 leaders. What don't know, 17,000, 20,000 leaders. What are they? Church leaders who are growing are they? Church leaders who are growing are they? Church leaders who are growing together in their leadership journey, together in their leadership journey, together in their leadership journey, learning everything from practical learning everything from practical learning everything from practical skills through to deeper conversations skills through to deeper conversations skills through to deeper conversations like the one we had today in a guess like the one we had today in a guess like the one we had today in a guess what trollfree environment. So that's what trollfree environment. So that's what trollfree environment. So that's the art of leadershipacademy.com. You'll the art of leadershipacademy.com. You'll the art of leadershipacademy.com. You'll find the show notes in there if you're find the show notes in there if you're find the show notes in there if you're looking for some of the links. We talked looking for some of the links. We talked looking for some of the links. We talked about a lot of stuff in this about a lot of stuff in this about a lot of stuff in this conversation today. Next episode, we've conversation today. Next episode, we've conversation today. Next episode, we've got Les Mchuan on the podcast. He does got Les Mchuan on the podcast. He does got Les Mchuan on the podcast. He does business and church coaching. We talk business and church coaching. We talk business and church coaching. We talk about the rise of many celebrity about the rise of many celebrity about the rise of many celebrity pastors, a whole lot more. Also coming pastors, a whole lot more. Also coming pastors, a whole lot more. Also coming up, Craig Gashelle, Dr. Wayne Chappelle, up, Craig Gashelle, Dr. Wayne Chappelle, up, Craig Gashelle, Dr. Wayne Chappelle, John Christ is back for round two. I'm John Christ is back for round two. I'm John Christ is back for round two. I'm so excited for that. Henry Cloud, so excited for that. Henry Cloud, so excited for that. Henry Cloud, Patrick Lenion, and a whole lot more.

Patrick Lenion, and a whole lot more. Patrick Lenion, and a whole lot more. We've done a lot of in-person interviews We've done a lot of in-person interviews We've done a lot of in-person interviews in this season. I think you're really in this season. I think you're really in this season. I think you're really going to appreciate those. So, for those going to appreciate those. So, for those going to appreciate those. So, for those of you who are watching, wherever you're of you who are watching, wherever you're of you who are watching, wherever you're watching or listening, give us a follow, watching or listening, give us a follow, watching or listening, give us a follow, give us a subscribe, and maybe share give us a subscribe, and maybe share give us a subscribe, and maybe share this episode with a friend. I think you this episode with a friend. I think you this episode with a friend. I think you uh will have found it. Hopefully, you uh will have found it. Hopefully, you uh will have found it. Hopefully, you found it really enriching. I know I did. found it really enriching. I know I did. found it really enriching. I know I did. And we'll catch you next time. And I And we'll catch you next time. And I And we'll catch you next time. And I hope maybe even in prayer or in your own hope maybe even in prayer or in your own hope maybe even in prayer or in your own personal walk that the conversation personal walk that the conversation personal walk that the conversation today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.