Pastoring an Angry Church and Leading a Ministry You Didn't Start with Rich Villodas

I was in CVS Carrie. I was maybe al five I was in CVS Carrie. I was maybe al five and I get a call. It's Pete and he and I get a call. It's Pete and he and I get a call. It's Pete and he starts just emotionally just going at starts just emotionally just going at starts just emotionally just going at it. He's processing but in a way that he it. He's processing but in a way that he it. He's processing but in a way that he crossed the line emotionally. crossed the line emotionally. crossed the line emotionally. >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff leadership >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff leadership >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff leadership podcast. I'm so glad you joined us podcast. I'm so glad you joined us podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. To all of you who are tuning in today. To all of you who are tuning in today. To all of you who are tuning in for the first time, welcome. Whether for the first time, welcome. Whether for the first time, welcome. Whether you're watching, whether you're you're watching, whether you're you're watching, whether you're listening, we're really, really honored listening, we're really, really honored listening, we're really, really honored you're here. And what I want to do is I you're here. And what I want to do is I you're here. And what I want to do is I want to bring you the best conversations want to bring you the best conversations want to bring you the best conversations I can possibly have with the leaders I can possibly have with the leaders I can possibly have with the leaders that you admire. some of whom you've that you admire. some of whom you've that you admire. some of whom you've heard of, some of whom you haven't. heard of, some of whom you haven't. heard of, some of whom you haven't. Today, you've probably heard of my Today, you've probably heard of my Today, you've probably heard of my guest. It's Rich Belotus. We recorded guest. It's Rich Belotus. We recorded guest. It's Rich Belotus. We recorded this backstage at Exponential in person. this backstage at Exponential in person. this backstage at Exponential in person. I wanted to bring it to you on this I wanted to bring it to you on this I wanted to bring it to you on this podcast because we talk about how to podcast because we talk about how to podcast because we talk about how to deescalate an angry church. You got an deescalate an angry church. You got an deescalate an angry church. You got an angry church. How do you deescalate it? angry church. How do you deescalate it? angry church. How do you deescalate it? People have political views, they get People have political views, they get People have political views, they get upset, all of those things. Well, we're upset, all of those things. Well, we're upset, all of those things. Well, we're going to talk about that with Rich. And going to talk about that with Rich. And going to talk about that with Rich. And we're also going to talk about how to we're also going to talk about how to we're also going to talk about how to lead a church you didn't start. So many lead a church you didn't start. So many lead a church you didn't start. So many of you are now leading ministries, of you are now leading ministries, of you are now leading ministries, taking over for a legacy pastor. What is taking over for a legacy pastor. What is taking over for a legacy pastor. What is the skill set you need when you're not the skill set you need when you're not the skill set you need when you're not the founder? Well, Rich knows that cuz the founder? Well, Rich knows that cuz the founder? Well, Rich knows that cuz he took over for Pete Scazero 14 years he took over for Pete Scazero 14 years he took over for Pete Scazero 14 years ago and he's been leading New Life ago and he's been leading New Life ago and he's been leading New Life Church since then. He is the Church since then. He is the Church since then. He is the Brooklynbased lead pastor of New Life Brooklynbased lead pastor of New Life Brooklynbased lead pastor of New Life Fellowship, a large multi-racial church Fellowship, a large multi-racial church Fellowship, a large multi-racial church with more than 80 countries represented.

with more than 80 countries represented. with more than 80 countries represented. And guess what? People there vote on And guess what? People there vote on And guess what? People there vote on both sides of the aisle. So, he's got to both sides of the aisle. So, he's got to both sides of the aisle. So, he's got to sometimes deescalate political sometimes deescalate political sometimes deescalate political situations. We talk about how he does situations. We talk about how he does situations. We talk about how he does that. He is the author of four books, that. He is the author of four books, that. He is the author of four books, including the awardwinning Deeply Formed including the awardwinning Deeply Formed including the awardwinning Deeply Formed Life. And I can't wait for you to hear Life. And I can't wait for you to hear Life. And I can't wait for you to hear this conversation with Rich Veus. this conversation with Rich Veus. this conversation with Rich Veus. Welcome to the Exponential Live stream. Welcome to the Exponential Live stream. Welcome to the Exponential Live stream. We're doing a live podcast. Well, sort We're doing a live podcast. Well, sort We're doing a live podcast. Well, sort of a live stream that will also appear of a live stream that will also appear of a live stream that will also appear on my podcast probably in 2029. We work on my podcast probably in 2029. We work on my podcast probably in 2029. We work ahead. No, not quite. I'm here with uh ahead. No, not quite. I'm here with uh ahead. No, not quite. I'm here with uh Rich Veus. Rich, it's so good to have Rich Veus. Rich, it's so good to have Rich Veus. Rich, it's so good to have you back and to have you here. You spoke you back and to have you here. You spoke you back and to have you here. You spoke yesterday at Exponential. yesterday at Exponential. yesterday at Exponential. >> Yeah. Was it blouse car? >> Yeah. Was it blouse car? >> Yeah. Was it blouse car? >> Ah, it's always good to be together. So, >> Ah, it's always good to be together. So, >> Ah, it's always good to be together. So, I want to focus on cuz Exponential's a I want to focus on cuz Exponential's a I want to focus on cuz Exponential's a lot of church planters, but you are lot of church planters, but you are lot of church planters, but you are leading a church that you didn't start. leading a church that you didn't start. leading a church that you didn't start. >> Yeah. Your um founder, the the your >> Yeah. Your um founder, the the your >> Yeah. Your um founder, the the your predecessor was Pete Scazero, who a lot predecessor was Pete Scazero, who a lot predecessor was Pete Scazero, who a lot of leaders know does has an incredible of leaders know does has an incredible of leaders know does has an incredible ministry. And I've been thinking about ministry. And I've been thinking about ministry. And I've been thinking about this because I know more and more this because I know more and more this because I know more and more next-gen pastors in their 30s and 40s next-gen pastors in their 30s and 40s next-gen pastors in their 30s and 40s taking over for founders. And I think taking over for founders. And I think taking over for founders. And I think it's a different skill set it's a different skill set it's a different skill set >> like you know founding you're kind of >> like you know founding you're kind of >> like you know founding you're kind of just you got will be church plant. It just you got will be church plant. It just you got will be church plant. It attracts a certain species. Um but I attracts a certain species. Um but I attracts a certain species. Um but I think it takes I'm watching my successor think it takes I'm watching my successor think it takes I'm watching my successor Jeff Brody do an incredible job at Kexus Jeff Brody do an incredible job at Kexus Jeff Brody do an incredible job at Kexus and I'm like hm wonder what the gift set and I'm like hm wonder what the gift set and I'm like hm wonder what the gift set is. So what are you learning? What have is. So what are you learning? What have is. So what are you learning? What have you learned 14 years in?

you learned 14 years in? you learned 14 years in? >> Yeah. about leading a church you didn't >> Yeah. about leading a church you didn't >> Yeah. about leading a church you didn't start. start. start. >> Yeah. On one level, I think I had to be >> Yeah. On one level, I think I had to be >> Yeah. On one level, I think I had to be clear in terms of who I was and who I clear in terms of who I was and who I clear in terms of who I was and who I wasn't at the start. wasn't at the start. wasn't at the start. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which is really hard to do when you're >> Which is really hard to do when you're >> Which is really hard to do when you're 32. 32. 32. >> Cuz you were 32 when you took over for >> Cuz you were 32 when you took over for >> Cuz you were 32 when you took over for Pete. Pete. Pete. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And he had been there for how old? >> And he had been there for how old? >> And he had been there for how old? >> 26 years. >> 26 years. >> 26 years. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And so I look back, I go, what were they >> And so I look back, I go, what were they >> And so I look back, I go, what were they thinking? Yeah. And a 32 year old uh in thinking? Yeah. And a 32 year old uh in thinking? Yeah. And a 32 year old uh in this space here. But I think Pete really this space here. But I think Pete really this space here. But I think Pete really helped me at the at the start to ask helped me at the at the start to ask helped me at the at the start to ask that question. Who are you? Who are you that question. Who are you? Who are you that question. Who are you? Who are you not? Uh the other thing is in terms of not? Uh the other thing is in terms of not? Uh the other thing is in terms of the the skill that I had to slowly the the skill that I had to slowly the the skill that I had to slowly develop especially with Pete because the develop especially with Pete because the develop especially with Pete because the arrangement he had was he was going to arrangement he had was he was going to arrangement he had was he was going to remain on the staff in a different role. remain on the staff in a different role. remain on the staff in a different role. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we were clear with job descriptions. >> And we were clear with job descriptions. >> And we were clear with job descriptions. We were clear with finances. We were We were clear with finances. We were We were clear with finances. We were clear with how much he was going to get clear with how much he was going to get clear with how much he was going to get paid for how long. We were clear with paid for how long. We were clear with paid for how long. We were clear with all that. Uh and yet he brought a all that. Uh and yet he brought a all that. Uh and yet he brought a presence. And so the area of growth was presence. And so the area of growth was presence. And so the area of growth was really when are the moments when I need really when are the moments when I need really when are the moments when I need to be Moses listening to Jethro to be Moses listening to Jethro to be Moses listening to Jethro >> versus when are the moments when where >> versus when are the moments when where >> versus when are the moments when where when David and with King Saul and so not when David and with King Saul and so not when David and with King Saul and so not calling Pete King Saul but you know Saul calling Pete King Saul but you know Saul calling Pete King Saul but you know Saul was putting on his armor on was putting on his armor on was putting on his armor on >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And there were times where David had to >> And there were times where David had to >> And there were times where David had to say this armor doesn't fit me. I have to say this armor doesn't fit me. I have to say this armor doesn't fit me. I have to go in a different direction. And there go in a different direction. And there go in a different direction. And there were times where I had to do that. He were times where I had to do that. He were times where I had to do that. He had his will for my life and his will had his will for my life and his will had his will for my life and his will for the church and there are moments for the church and there are moments for the church and there are moments where I have to say no I don't think where I have to say no I don't think where I have to say no I don't think this fits me or he had great wisdom. this fits me or he had great wisdom. this fits me or he had great wisdom. Moses goes to his father-in-law Jethro Moses goes to his father-in-law Jethro Moses goes to his father-in-law Jethro and Jethro says what you're doing is not and Jethro says what you're doing is not and Jethro says what you're doing is not good. Here's some wisdom for you around good. Here's some wisdom for you around good. Here's some wisdom for you around delegation and such. And so that that delegation and such. And so that that delegation and such. And so that that discernment was hard but it was a muscle discernment was hard but it was a muscle discernment was hard but it was a muscle I had to learn to exercise. And I think I had to learn to exercise. And I think I had to learn to exercise. And I think it culminated with just the the growing it culminated with just the the growing it culminated with just the the growing ability to experiment. So having a ability to experiment. So having a ability to experiment. So having a culture where there's space for culture where there's space for culture where there's space for experimentation, especially when you're experimentation, especially when you're experimentation, especially when you're taking over for someone for 26 years, is taking over for someone for 26 years, is taking over for someone for 26 years, is something I think not just I, but I something I think not just I, but I something I think not just I, but I think our church as a whole needs to think our church as a whole needs to think our church as a whole needs to embrace. embrace. embrace. >> Yeah. And you know, I mean, this is a >> Yeah. And you know, I mean, this is a >> Yeah. And you know, I mean, this is a common story these days, but when common story these days, but when common story these days, but when someone's been there for 20, 30 or more someone's been there for 20, 30 or more someone's been there for 20, 30 or more years, they leave a big shadow. How did years, they leave a big shadow. How did years, they leave a big shadow. How did you deal with that? How did you and Pete you deal with that? How did you and Pete you deal with that? How did you and Pete deal with that? on on one level. Um I deal with that? on on one level. Um I deal with that? on on one level. Um I think I was as strong or maybe a think I was as strong or maybe a think I was as strong or maybe a stronger preacher than Pete.

stronger preacher than Pete. stronger preacher than Pete. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And so if I I'll just say how it worked >> And so if I I'll just say how it worked >> And so if I I'll just say how it worked for us. And so Sunday is a big thing. for us. And so Sunday is a big thing. for us. And so Sunday is a big thing. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> My ability to be able to say there's not >> My ability to be able to say there's not >> My ability to be able to say there's not going to be a drop here. I think in some going to be a drop here. I think in some going to be a drop here. I think in some respects, I'm not saying this is good or respects, I'm not saying this is good or respects, I'm not saying this is good or bad, but good preaching covers a bad, but good preaching covers a bad, but good preaching covers a multitude of sim in the church. multitude of sim in the church. multitude of sim in the church. >> It does. >> It does. >> It does. So because of a true I think that gave So because of a true I think that gave So because of a true I think that gave me enough of a okay uh if I was a bad me enough of a okay uh if I was a bad me enough of a okay uh if I was a bad preacher or if I didn't communicate well preacher or if I didn't communicate well preacher or if I didn't communicate well with the with the people uh they were so with the with the people uh they were so with the with the people uh they were so used to Pete for 26 years it would have used to Pete for 26 years it would have used to Pete for 26 years it would have been hard uh and so uh but it was also been hard uh and so uh but it was also been hard uh and so uh but it was also Pete did enough work on himself and Pete did enough work on himself and Pete did enough work on himself and created a context where it was created a context where it was created a context where it was invitational so the the help that I was invitational so the the help that I was invitational so the the help that I was requesting it wasn't him going to me it requesting it wasn't him going to me it requesting it wasn't him going to me it was hey whenever you need cuz I wasn't was hey whenever you need cuz I wasn't was hey whenever you need cuz I wasn't good at vision casting it. good at vision casting it. good at vision casting it. >> I was, in fact, it probably took me 10 >> I was, in fact, it probably took me 10 >> I was, in fact, it probably took me 10 years to learn how to cast vision. Well, years to learn how to cast vision. Well, years to learn how to cast vision. Well, the first 10 was very sloppy, very the first 10 was very sloppy, very the first 10 was very sloppy, very vague, very ambiguous. And Pete was vague, very ambiguous. And Pete was vague, very ambiguous. And Pete was after 26 years an exceptional vision after 26 years an exceptional vision after 26 years an exceptional vision caster. Uh, and so some of the things caster. Uh, and so some of the things caster. Uh, and so some of the things just it just takes time. So, how did it just it just takes time. So, how did it just it just takes time. So, how did it work? It was a patient community, a work? It was a patient community, a work? It was a patient community, a patient board, uh, recognizing Rich is patient board, uh, recognizing Rich is patient board, uh, recognizing Rich is really young, but we believe in him and, really young, but we believe in him and, really young, but we believe in him and, uh, what he will grow into. I think all uh, what he will grow into. I think all uh, what he will grow into. I think all of those things, it wasn't just me. me I of those things, it wasn't just me. me I of those things, it wasn't just me. me I think it was the larger community ethos think it was the larger community ethos think it was the larger community ethos that allowed a transition like this to that allowed a transition like this to that allowed a transition like this to happen to be well happen to be well happen to be well >> if you look at Pete's you've already >> if you look at Pete's you've already >> if you look at Pete's you've already hinted a little bit about preaching and hinted a little bit about preaching and hinted a little bit about preaching and vision casting but if you were to look vision casting but if you were to look vision casting but if you were to look at Pete's gifts skill sets your gifts at Pete's gifts skill sets your gifts at Pete's gifts skill sets your gifts and skill set what's different and I'll

and skill set what's different and I'll and skill set what's different and I'll give you an example like when I passed give you an example like when I passed give you an example like when I passed things over uh 10 years ago to Jeff things over uh 10 years ago to Jeff things over uh 10 years ago to Jeff Brody I realized Kexus needs some Brody I realized Kexus needs some Brody I realized Kexus needs some management and I'm not a manager and management and I'm not a manager and management and I'm not a manager and Jeff was a much better manager than I Jeff was a much better manager than I Jeff was a much better manager than I am. He's a fantastic leader, but he's am. He's a fantastic leader, but he's am. He's a fantastic leader, but he's actually a really good manager. And I'm actually a really good manager. And I'm actually a really good manager. And I'm like, change all the time. It's like like, change all the time. It's like like, change all the time. It's like sometimes change when we don't need to sometimes change when we don't need to sometimes change when we don't need to change. change. change. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I realized, oh, my pace is not >> And I realized, oh, my pace is not >> And I realized, oh, my pace is not healthy for this church right now. healthy for this church right now. healthy for this church right now. >> And Jeff's more patient. He's more >> And Jeff's more patient. He's more >> And Jeff's more patient. He's more thoughtful. So, I saw that gift mix and thoughtful. So, I saw that gift mix and thoughtful. So, I saw that gift mix and I thought, I think I've done what I've I thought, I think I've done what I've I thought, I think I've done what I've come to do. I feel released from this come to do. I feel released from this come to do. I feel released from this calling. And then obviously I went on to calling. And then obviously I went on to calling. And then obviously I went on to help lead leaders. But I I saw the help lead leaders. But I I saw the help lead leaders. But I I saw the different skill set and I'm not making different skill set and I'm not making different skill set and I'm not making any universal prescriptions, but I'm any universal prescriptions, but I'm any universal prescriptions, but I'm just curious when you look at Pete, you just curious when you look at Pete, you just curious when you look at Pete, you look at you, look at you, look at you, >> what what did you bring that he didn't >> what what did you bring that he didn't >> what what did you bring that he didn't have and what did he bring that you have and what did he bring that you have and what did he bring that you don't need or don't have? don't need or don't have? don't need or don't have? >> I I think um big difference >> I I think um big difference >> I I think um big difference collaboration. So my ability to collaboration. So my ability to collaboration. So my ability to collaborate more. collaborate more. collaborate more. >> Jeff, too. Uh I'm bit of a lone ranger >> Jeff, too. Uh I'm bit of a lone ranger >> Jeff, too. Uh I'm bit of a lone ranger less so now. Yeah. Pete would come from less so now. Yeah. Pete would come from less so now. Yeah. Pete would come from the mountain and then say the word of the mountain and then say the word of the mountain and then say the word of the Lord. I just sbatical here it is and the Lord. I just sbatical here it is and the Lord. I just sbatical here it is and everybody can go thanks be to God you everybody can go thanks be to God you everybody can go thanks be to God you know uh and so there was that there but know uh and so there was that there but know uh and so there was that there but also and I mean it's interesting with also and I mean it's interesting with also and I mean it's interesting with your successor I think it this is not my your successor I think it this is not my your successor I think it this is not my forte however I was a lot stronger in forte however I was a lot stronger in forte however I was a lot stronger in building systems building systems building systems >> and so even financial systems uh even >> and so even financial systems uh even >> and so even financial systems uh even volunteer systems uh you know Pete he volunteer systems uh you know Pete he volunteer systems uh you know Pete he had a prophetic edge in which he was

had a prophetic edge in which he was had a prophetic edge in which he was going to swing the pendulum and I was going to swing the pendulum and I was going to swing the pendulum and I was trying to figure out How do we hold trying to figure out How do we hold trying to figure out How do we hold tensions? And so he was so for example tensions? And so he was so for example tensions? And so he was so for example he went on this he went from Pete went he went on this he went from Pete went he went on this he went from Pete went from a charismatic from a charismatic from a charismatic uh prophetic guy to like the monastery uh prophetic guy to like the monastery uh prophetic guy to like the monastery swinging you talking about swinging a swinging you talking about swinging a swinging you talking about swinging a pendulum. He kind of put like a pendulum. He kind of put like a pendulum. He kind of put like a moratorum on the Holy Spirit like we've moratorum on the Holy Spirit like we've moratorum on the Holy Spirit like we've had enough craziness in the '9s cuz he had enough craziness in the '9s cuz he had enough craziness in the '9s cuz he was Pentecost. was Pentecost. was Pentecost. >> Yeah. They were they were hosting like >> Yeah. They were they were hosting like >> Yeah. They were they were hosting like prophetic conferences which is crazy to prophetic conferences which is crazy to prophetic conferences which is crazy to think of right now. John Whimber, all think of right now. John Whimber, all think of right now. John Whimber, all the folks within that tribe of people the folks within that tribe of people the folks within that tribe of people were at Queens and he swings the were at Queens and he swings the were at Queens and he swings the pendulum to like or I'm going to hang pendulum to like or I'm going to hang pendulum to like or I'm going to hang with monks now. And what I tried to do with monks now. And what I tried to do with monks now. And what I tried to do is say um how do we systematize or is say um how do we systematize or is say um how do we systematize or create uh hold the tensions together? I create uh hold the tensions together? I create uh hold the tensions together? I think that's the gifts that I brought uh think that's the gifts that I brought uh think that's the gifts that I brought uh where so like one of the first things I where so like one of the first things I where so like one of the first things I did uh because of of Sabbath and did uh because of of Sabbath and did uh because of of Sabbath and emotional health bunch of people came to emotional health bunch of people came to emotional health bunch of people came to New Life to recover and I'm thinking New Life to recover and I'm thinking New Life to recover and I'm thinking there's work to get done here people you there's work to get done here people you there's work to get done here people you get one Sabbath a week you don't get six get one Sabbath a week you don't get six get one Sabbath a week you don't get six and so I had seen him swing the pendulum and so I had seen him swing the pendulum and so I had seen him swing the pendulum and say we want to be a contemplative and say we want to be a contemplative and say we want to be a contemplative community on mission and so the first community on mission and so the first community on mission and so the first thing I did at our new annual members thing I did at our new annual members thing I did at our new annual members meeting was to get every new member of meeting was to get every new member of meeting was to get every new member of our church who's rooting themselves in our church who's rooting themselves in our church who's rooting themselves in our community a towel. John 13, Jesus our community a towel. John 13, Jesus our community a towel. John 13, Jesus cleaning WW his disciples. And I was cleaning WW his disciples. And I was cleaning WW his disciples. And I was saying if you're going to be rooted in saying if you're going to be rooted in saying if you're going to be rooted in this church, you are saying yes to this church, you are saying yes to this church, you are saying yes to serving with us here. That was not serving with us here. That was not serving with us here. That was not language that Pete necessarily used cuz language that Pete necessarily used cuz language that Pete necessarily used cuz his prophetic edge was trying to name his prophetic edge was trying to name his prophetic edge was trying to name what are the big pendulum swifts that

what are the big pendulum swifts that what are the big pendulum swifts that shifts that need to be made. And I think shifts that need to be made. And I think shifts that need to be made. And I think personalitywise for me, I'm more so how personalitywise for me, I'm more so how personalitywise for me, I'm more so how do we hold these two bids in tension? do we hold these two bids in tension? do we hold these two bids in tension? >> So those are some differences that you >> So those are some differences that you >> So those are some differences that you had between you and Pete. What about the had between you and Pete. What about the had between you and Pete. What about the relationship? Like you you said, Pete, relationship? Like you you said, Pete, relationship? Like you you said, Pete, like you clearly defined some roles like you clearly defined some roles like you clearly defined some roles >> and obviously 14 years in, this has >> and obviously 14 years in, this has >> and obviously 14 years in, this has worked out quite well. I'm sure you had worked out quite well. I'm sure you had worked out quite well. I'm sure you had some moments behind the scenes that some moments behind the scenes that some moments behind the scenes that might have been tense, but there's a sea might have been tense, but there's a sea might have been tense, but there's a sea of disasters. of disasters. of disasters. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> When it comes to pastors who stick >> When it comes to pastors who stick >> When it comes to pastors who stick around. I had somebody tell me once in around. I had somebody tell me once in around. I had somebody tell me once in the corporate world, like when you're the corporate world, like when you're the corporate world, like when you're done as CEO, your desk is clear. And done as CEO, your desk is clear. And done as CEO, your desk is clear. And security may not show you the door, but security may not show you the door, but security may not show you the door, but it's almost the same as security showing it's almost the same as security showing it's almost the same as security showing you the door. It's like this is your you the door. It's like this is your you the door. It's like this is your last day. All your stuff is gone. Nobody last day. All your stuff is gone. Nobody last day. All your stuff is gone. Nobody keeps an office down the hall for the keeps an office down the hall for the keeps an office down the hall for the former CEO. Well, we do this in the former CEO. Well, we do this in the former CEO. Well, we do this in the church all the time. church all the time. church all the time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I stayed on and I was a teaching >> And I stayed on and I was a teaching >> And I stayed on and I was a teaching pastor for a few years and now I'm just pastor for a few years and now I'm just pastor for a few years and now I'm just founding. And that takes a very delicate founding. And that takes a very delicate founding. And that takes a very delicate >> Yes. balance as you know cuz I'm in >> Yes. balance as you know cuz I'm in >> Yes. balance as you know cuz I'm in Pete's position where I was handing Pete's position where I was handing Pete's position where I was handing something off. I say to pastors all the something off. I say to pastors all the something off. I say to pastors all the time, you have incredible power to time, you have incredible power to time, you have incredible power to destroy your church. And all you have to destroy your church. And all you have to destroy your church. And all you have to do is start whispering about Jeff or do is start whispering about Jeff or do is start whispering about Jeff or Rich behind his back with the Rich behind his back with the Rich behind his back with the influencers like, you know, small group.

influencers like, you know, small group. influencers like, you know, small group. Oh, I really don't like the direction of Oh, I really don't like the direction of Oh, I really don't like the direction of this church. I don't know what happened. this church. I don't know what happened. this church. I don't know what happened. And then you play the little pity party And then you play the little pity party And then you play the little pity party and they're like, it was so much better and they're like, it was so much better and they're like, it was so much better under you. Which is not true in my case, under you. Which is not true in my case, under you. Which is not true in my case, but if it was, you know, it was so much but if it was, you know, it was so much but if it was, you know, it was so much better under you and then you become the better under you and then you become the better under you and then you become the hero in your own mind and all that. How hero in your own mind and all that. How hero in your own mind and all that. How do you avoid that? do you avoid that? do you avoid that? the the reason why Pete Scazero is uh the the reason why Pete Scazero is uh the the reason why Pete Scazero is uh the most significant mentor I've ever the most significant mentor I've ever the most significant mentor I've ever had and probably the most significant had and probably the most significant had and probably the most significant influence. I've had a numbers of great influence. I've had a numbers of great influence. I've had a numbers of great but he's probably number one for me is but he's probably number one for me is but he's probably number one for me is because of his humility. because of his humility. because of his humility. I I'll tell you a story here. Pete I I'll tell you a story here. Pete I I'll tell you a story here. Pete promised me that he was not going to promised me that he was not going to promised me that he was not going to um get in the way or allow his anxiety um get in the way or allow his anxiety um get in the way or allow his anxiety to kind of disrupt what was happening to kind of disrupt what was happening to kind of disrupt what was happening until he allowed his anxiety to disrupt. until he allowed his anxiety to disrupt. until he allowed his anxiety to disrupt. And I'll give you an example. There were And I'll give you an example. There were And I'll give you an example. There were it happened two occasions in the first it happened two occasions in the first it happened two occasions in the first four years. I can name two, only two in four years. I can name two, only two in four years. I can name two, only two in the first four years. I was in CVS the first four years. I was in CVS the first four years. I was in CVS Carrie. I was maybe al five getting Carrie. I was maybe al five getting Carrie. I was maybe al five getting deodorant or something like that. And I deodorant or something like that. And I deodorant or something like that. And I get a call. It's Pete, which if I pick get a call. It's Pete, which if I pick get a call. It's Pete, which if I pick it up right now, this is either going to it up right now, this is either going to it up right now, this is either going to be a two-hour conversation or, you know, be a two-hour conversation or, you know, be a two-hour conversation or, you know, a two-cond conversation. So, I pick up a two-cond conversation. So, I pick up a two-cond conversation. So, I pick up and he starts it's all the pleasantries and he starts it's all the pleasantries and he starts it's all the pleasantries are exchanged in the first 30 second and are exchanged in the first 30 second and are exchanged in the first 30 second and he was building a ministry emotionally he was building a ministry emotionally he was building a ministry emotionally healthy disciplehip. One of the gaps healthy disciplehip. One of the gaps healthy disciplehip. One of the gaps that we did not anticipate was the level that we did not anticipate was the level that we did not anticipate was the level of administrative support he was going of administrative support he was going of administrative support he was going to need as he was moving out from senior to need as he was moving out from senior to need as he was moving out from senior pastor to building something else. And

pastor to building something else. And pastor to building something else. And so, he it would be lots of confusion. so, he it would be lots of confusion. so, he it would be lots of confusion. He's go to the staff, He's go to the staff, He's go to the staff, >> right? And I use the staff I used to >> right? And I use the staff I used to >> right? And I use the staff I used to that I hired. that I hired. that I hired. >> And and staff, do we work for Rich or do >> And and staff, do we work for Rich or do >> And and staff, do we work for Rich or do we work for Pete? And so staff is we work for Pete? And so staff is we work for Pete? And so staff is confused. They're showing resistance. confused. They're showing resistance. confused. They're showing resistance. Pete's mad at me. And so he calls me as Pete's mad at me. And so he calls me as Pete's mad at me. And so he calls me as I'm in five. Uh and he starts just I'm in five. Uh and he starts just I'm in five. Uh and he starts just emotionally just going at it. He's emotionally just going at it. He's emotionally just going at it. He's processing, but in a way that he crossed processing, but in a way that he crossed processing, but in a way that he crossed the line emotionally. And so I hang out. the line emotionally. And so I hang out. the line emotionally. And so I hang out. This is probably a three, four minute This is probably a three, four minute This is probably a three, four minute conversation. I'm furious. I'm angry. He conversation. I'm furious. I'm angry. He conversation. I'm furious. I'm angry. He said he wasn't going to do that. And so said he wasn't going to do that. And so said he wasn't going to do that. And so I I called back about 20 as you know now I I called back about 20 as you know now I I called back about 20 as you know now I'm 30 3 years old you know this is my I'm 30 3 years old you know this is my I'm 30 3 years old you know this is my mentor but he's trained me in the ways mentor but he's trained me in the ways mentor but he's trained me in the ways of like the Jedi here. So he's like I of like the Jedi here. So he's like I of like the Jedi here. So he's like I was his padawan. He was my and and I was his padawan. He was my and and I was his padawan. He was my and and I said I'm he's train I'm going to use the said I'm he's train I'm going to use the said I'm he's train I'm going to use the things he's taught me on him. And so I things he's taught me on him. And so I things he's taught me on him. And so I said hey Pete can we can we just he said hey Pete can we can we just he said hey Pete can we can we just he called me. Hey Rich. He totally forgot called me. Hey Rich. He totally forgot called me. Hey Rich. He totally forgot about the conversation first. got it off about the conversation first. got it off about the conversation first. got it off his minutes later. You got it off. He his minutes later. You got it off. He his minutes later. You got it off. He was a free man. He was like joy.

was a free man. He was like joy. was a free man. He was like joy. >> And I say, "Pe, can we talk about the >> And I say, "Pe, can we talk about the >> And I say, "Pe, can we talk about the conversations?" What conversation? conversations?" What conversation? conversations?" What conversation? >> I was at CBS in ' 05 and you called me >> I was at CBS in ' 05 and you called me >> I was at CBS in ' 05 and you called me and I just said, "You know, um you and I just said, "You know, um you and I just said, "You know, um you emotionally um vomited emotionally um vomited emotionally um vomited and you said you weren't going to do and you said you weren't going to do and you said you weren't going to do that." And uh I noticed that and and that." And uh I noticed that and and that." And uh I noticed that and and Pete was so humble Pete was so humble Pete was so humble and repented and honest and rich that and repented and honest and rich that and repented and honest and rich that that got the best in me just and I just that got the best in me just and I just that got the best in me just and I just thought this is who I want to be like. thought this is who I want to be like. thought this is who I want to be like. And I think so worked because of his And I think so worked because of his And I think so worked because of his humility. humility. humility. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> His willingness to say I was wrong and >> His willingness to say I was wrong and >> His willingness to say I was wrong and I'm sorry. And that happened um a couple I'm sorry. And that happened um a couple I'm sorry. And that happened um a couple of times. There are other times where of times. There are other times where of times. There are other times where and I've had conversations with Pete and I've had conversations with Pete and I've had conversations with Pete about this where uh it took me a while about this where uh it took me a while about this where uh it took me a while to to find my footing in terms of to to find my footing in terms of to to find my footing in terms of direction for the church. When I think direction for the church. When I think direction for the church. When I think about vision, I think about formational about vision, I think about formational about vision, I think about formational vision and directional vision. I was vision and directional vision. I was vision and directional vision. I was great with formational vision, spiritual great with formational vision, spiritual great with formational vision, spiritual formations. Yeah. Who are we as a formations. Yeah. Who are we as a formations. Yeah. Who are we as a community? What is God? What are the community? What is God? What are the community? What is God? What are the values of our community? Who has God values of our community? Who has God values of our community? Who has God called us to be? Directional vision is called us to be? Directional vision is called us to be? Directional vision is which mountain are we going to take?

which mountain are we going to take? which mountain are we going to take? Which direction are we going to go? I Which direction are we going to go? I Which direction are we going to go? I wasn't good at that. And so he was wasn't good at that. And so he was wasn't good at that. And so he was really good at that. Where are we going really good at that. Where are we going really good at that. Where are we going to go? What's the priorities? What's the to go? What's the priorities? What's the to go? What's the priorities? What's the vision? And so he'd always go, Rich, vision? And so he'd always go, Rich, vision? And so he'd always go, Rich, what's the vision? And I'm like, I don't what's the vision? And I'm like, I don't what's the vision? And I'm like, I don't know what the deal is to get to know know what the deal is to get to know know what the deal is to get to know Jesus, to pray. And he was looking for Jesus, to pray. And he was looking for Jesus, to pray. And he was looking for markers and measures. And how do you do markers and measures. And how do you do markers and measures. And how do you do that there? And so me being able to say that there? And so me being able to say that there? And so me being able to say this is not really helpful, but his this is not really helpful, but his this is not really helpful, but his humility, I think ultimately, Carrie, humility, I think ultimately, Carrie, humility, I think ultimately, Carrie, that's what made it work. His that's what made it work. His that's what made it work. His willingness to say, I crossed the line. willingness to say, I crossed the line. willingness to say, I crossed the line. I said I wasn't going to do that. I want I said I wasn't going to do that. I want I said I wasn't going to do that. I want to be your champion, your support. to be your champion, your support. to be your champion, your support. And basically he's done that with a And basically he's done that with a And basically he's done that with a couple of very slight exceptions for 14 couple of very slight exceptions for 14 couple of very slight exceptions for 14 years. years. years. >> He's been my number then. >> He's been my number then. >> He's been my number then. >> Wow. Yeah. >> Wow. Yeah. >> Wow. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> What about ego? Cuz there can always be >> What about ego? Cuz there can always be >> What about ego? Cuz there can always be a competition, you know, a preach off a competition, you know, a preach off a competition, you know, a preach off and maybe a greater communication skills and maybe a greater communication skills and maybe a greater communication skills or you know that yours is now bigger and or you know that yours is now bigger and or you know that yours is now bigger and better under your leadership. How have better under your leadership. How have better under your leadership. How have you worked on that competitive streak you worked on that competitive streak you worked on that competitive streak ego? anything in you that might want to ego? anything in you that might want to ego? anything in you that might want to up pee?

up pee? up pee? >> Well, in the first few years, um, I >> Well, in the first few years, um, I >> Well, in the first few years, um, I allowed that to get a hold of me very allowed that to get a hold of me very allowed that to get a hold of me very quickly and it was my own insecurities. quickly and it was my own insecurities. quickly and it was my own insecurities. I wanted to prove that they got the I wanted to prove that they got the I wanted to prove that they got the right person for the job. And for me, right person for the job. And for me, right person for the job. And for me, what that meant was we were going to what that meant was we were going to what that meant was we were going to start in congregations. We were going to start in congregations. We were going to start in congregations. We were going to grow this church. We were going to take grow this church. We were going to take grow this church. We were going to take our budget and make it higher. And so, our budget and make it higher. And so, our budget and make it higher. And so, uh, the first two years I was already uh, the first two years I was already uh, the first two years I was already trying to, um, offer you know, new trying to, um, offer you know, new trying to, um, offer you know, new milestones, but it was sheer out of milestones, but it was sheer out of milestones, but it was sheer out of insecurity. insecurity. insecurity. >> This episode is brought to you by Lifest >> This episode is brought to you by Lifest >> This episode is brought to you by Lifest Ministries. If you lead a church, you Ministries. If you lead a church, you Ministries. If you lead a church, you know how challenging it can be to find know how challenging it can be to find know how challenging it can be to find an adult Sunday school curriculum that an adult Sunday school curriculum that an adult Sunday school curriculum that your teachers will actually use week your teachers will actually use week your teachers will actually use week after week, year after year. I want to after week, year after year. I want to after week, year after year. I want to tell you about something that's been tell you about something that's been tell you about something that's been serving churches for over 120 years. serving churches for over 120 years. serving churches for over 120 years. It's the quarterly Bible curriculum from It's the quarterly Bible curriculum from It's the quarterly Bible curriculum from Lifestton Ministries. You can find it at Lifestton Ministries. You can find it at Lifestton Ministries. You can find it at lifestone ministries.org/carry. The adult Bible class is a quarterly The adult Bible class is a quarterly verse byvere theologically sound verse byvere theologically sound verse byvere theologically sound resource that gives your teachers and resource that gives your teachers and resource that gives your teachers and adult students everything they need to adult students everything they need to adult students everything they need to lead with confidence every single week.

lead with confidence every single week. lead with confidence every single week. And if your congregation includes And if your congregation includes And if your congregation includes readers who benefit from larger text, readers who benefit from larger text, readers who benefit from larger text, it's available in large print, too. For it's available in large print, too. For it's available in large print, too. For teachers who want to go even deeper, teachers who want to go even deeper, teachers who want to go even deeper, there's adult Bible teacher packed with there's adult Bible teacher packed with there's adult Bible teacher packed with exposition, discussion questions, and exposition, discussion questions, and exposition, discussion questions, and practical lessons that really help your practical lessons that really help your practical lessons that really help your leaders get prepared. These aren't leaders get prepared. These aren't leaders get prepared. These aren't trendy resources that disappear in a trendy resources that disappear in a trendy resources that disappear in a year. They're a trusted, proven year. They're a trusted, proven year. They're a trusted, proven curriculum that more than 10,000 curriculum that more than 10,000 curriculum that more than 10,000 students, teachers, and churches rely on students, teachers, and churches rely on students, teachers, and churches rely on every single quarter. Visit every single quarter. Visit every single quarter. Visit lifestries.org/carry. lifestries.org/carry. lifestries.org/carry. That's lifestinies.org/carey to order and learn more. This episode is to order and learn more. This episode is brought to you by the art of preaching. brought to you by the art of preaching. brought to you by the art of preaching. Every preacher makes mistakes and the Every preacher makes mistakes and the Every preacher makes mistakes and the toughest part you always make them on toughest part you always make them on toughest part you always make them on Sunday morning in front of hundreds or Sunday morning in front of hundreds or Sunday morning in front of hundreds or sometimes thousands of people. Maybe sometimes thousands of people. Maybe sometimes thousands of people. Maybe I've done this. You lose your train of I've done this. You lose your train of I've done this. You lose your train of thought midsmon. You fumble for your thought midsmon. You fumble for your thought midsmon. You fumble for your notes like what was I trying to say? notes like what was I trying to say? notes like what was I trying to say? Right? You search for the line and all Right? You search for the line and all Right? You search for the line and all you feel is every single eye staring you feel is every single eye staring you feel is every single eye staring back at you. Your gut drops. Your palms back at you. Your gut drops. Your palms back at you. Your gut drops. Your palms get sweaty. No, I'm not going to start get sweaty. No, I'm not going to start get sweaty. No, I'm not going to start singing. Okay. Or rapping. And you singing. Okay. Or rapping. And you singing. Okay. Or rapping. And you replay it all Sunday afternoon. And then replay it all Sunday afternoon. And then replay it all Sunday afternoon. And then when you're lying in bed that night, when you're lying in bed that night, when you're lying in bed that night, listen, I get it. After 30 plus years of listen, I get it. After 30 plus years of listen, I get it. After 30 plus years of preaching, I've made every mistake you preaching, I've made every mistake you preaching, I've made every mistake you can make as a communicator more than can make as a communicator more than can make as a communicator more than once. And that's one of the reasons I once. And that's one of the reasons I once. And that's one of the reasons I created the art of preaching. It's a created the art of preaching. It's a created the art of preaching. It's a stepbystep course that helps you break stepbystep course that helps you break stepbystep course that helps you break free from panic and preach with free from panic and preach with free from panic and preach with confidence. Instead of second-guessing confidence. Instead of second-guessing confidence. Instead of second-guessing yourself and staying up all Saturday

yourself and staying up all Saturday yourself and staying up all Saturday night, you're going to know your message night, you're going to know your message night, you're going to know your message is going to be clear, memorable, and is going to be clear, memorable, and is going to be clear, memorable, and impactful long before you walk onto the impactful long before you walk onto the impactful long before you walk onto the stage or behind the pulpit. Most stage or behind the pulpit. Most stage or behind the pulpit. Most preaching resources give you preaching resources give you preaching resources give you inspiration. Some give you a formula to inspiration. Some give you a formula to inspiration. Some give you a formula to follow, but The Art of Preaching gives follow, but The Art of Preaching gives follow, but The Art of Preaching gives you the insight, strategies, and tools you the insight, strategies, and tools you the insight, strategies, and tools you need to transform your skill set and you need to transform your skill set and you need to transform your skill set and develop your gifting. You'll transform develop your gifting. You'll transform develop your gifting. You'll transform your skill set one step at a time. It's your skill set one step at a time. It's your skill set one step at a time. It's bite-size bits. The course is open for bite-size bits. The course is open for bite-size bits. The course is open for enrollment now, so you can check it out enrollment now, so you can check it out enrollment now, so you can check it out at the artfreachingcourse.com at the artfreachingcourse.com at the artfreachingcourse.com or by clicking the link in the or by clicking the link in the or by clicking the link in the description of this episode. Again, just description of this episode. Again, just description of this episode. Again, just click the link in the description of click the link in the description of click the link in the description of this episode to get instant access to this episode to get instant access to this episode to get instant access to the art of preaching. the art of preaching. the art of preaching. >> Okay. And often that that bravidacio, >> Okay. And often that that bravidacio, >> Okay. And often that that bravidacio, whatever you want to call it, whatever you want to call it, whatever you want to call it, >> yeah, that comes out of insecurity. >> yeah, that comes out of insecurity. >> yeah, that comes out of insecurity. >> Yes. Right. >> Yes. Right. >> Yes. Right. >> I was I I didn't think I I thought I had >> I was I I didn't think I I thought I had >> I was I I didn't think I I thought I had to prove myself to the board. and prove to prove myself to the board. and prove to prove myself to the board. and prove myself to the church that um for so for myself to the church that um for so for myself to the church that um for so for me preaching wasn't enough. It was I had me preaching wasn't enough. It was I had me preaching wasn't enough. It was I had to show I'm a leader as well. And uh and to show I'm a leader as well. And uh and to show I'm a leader as well. And uh and so the eagle I mean in fact what curred so the eagle I mean in fact what curred so the eagle I mean in fact what curred that back we did a um you know Ruth that back we did a um you know Ruth that back we did a um you know Ruth Ellie Barton has this book on discerning Ellie Barton has this book on discerning Ellie Barton has this book on discerning God's will together and we were thinking God's will together and we were thinking God's will together and we were thinking about should we start a new congregation about should we start a new congregation about should we start a new congregation within the first two years been crazy within the first two years been crazy within the first two years been crazy like this year and we got in a group like this year and we got in a group like this year and we got in a group about seven of us and for about three about seven of us and for about three about seven of us and for about three hours asking some simple discernment hours asking some simple discernment hours asking some simple discernment questions and it got so clear that this

questions and it got so clear that this questions and it got so clear that this would be the worst thing for us to would be the worst thing for us to would be the worst thing for us to possibly do at this moment. It actually possibly do at this moment. It actually possibly do at this moment. It actually took us uh 10 years before we started took us uh 10 years before we started took us uh 10 years before we started another congregation. another congregation. another congregation. And uh and I thought if we did it any And uh and I thought if we did it any And uh and I thought if we did it any time before it would have been a time before it would have been a time before it would have been a disastrous for us. disastrous for us. disastrous for us. >> Uh but that was us. I'm not saying >> Uh but that was us. I'm not saying >> Uh but that was us. I'm not saying that's the recipe forever. that's the recipe forever. that's the recipe forever. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But for us uh that was the right way for >> But for us uh that was the right way for >> But for us uh that was the right way for us to go. So ego. Yeah. I mean there's us to go. So ego. Yeah. I mean there's us to go. So ego. Yeah. I mean there's lots of ego. I I mean in me uh I on one lots of ego. I I mean in me uh I on one lots of ego. I I mean in me uh I on one levels I get very competitive. Um I want levels I get very competitive. Um I want levels I get very competitive. Um I want to but I want to show I I am like my the to but I want to show I I am like my the to but I want to show I I am like my the shadow side uh that I live with is my shadow side uh that I live with is my shadow side uh that I live with is my need to show I'm competent. I know I need to show I'm competent. I know I need to show I'm competent. I know I know how to do this thing. And uh if know how to do this thing. And uh if know how to do this thing. And uh if that's the the force the energy that's that's the the force the energy that's that's the the force the energy that's driving a lot of decisions uh is going driving a lot of decisions uh is going driving a lot of decisions uh is going to be some bad places. to be some bad places. to be some bad places. >> Man, what other skill sets do you think >> Man, what other skill sets do you think >> Man, what other skill sets do you think are required of the next pastor, the are required of the next pastor, the are required of the next pastor, the nonfounder?

um you know back to what I mentioned um you know back to what I mentioned earlier I mean I I do think an ability earlier I mean I I do think an ability earlier I mean I I do think an ability to to to um experiment so what are the things to um experiment so what are the things to um experiment so what are the things to say you know where are the points of say you know where are the points of say you know where are the points of continuity and the places of continuity and the places of continuity and the places of discontinuity discontinuity discontinuity >> uh and I'm not sure if that's a skill >> uh and I'm not sure if that's a skill >> uh and I'm not sure if that's a skill carry but um what are the things that we carry but um what are the things that we carry but um what are the things that we want to continue to honor what are the want to continue to honor what are the want to continue to honor what are the things we want to continue to um uh things we want to continue to um uh things we want to continue to um uh establish grow deep roots send and then establish grow deep roots send and then establish grow deep roots send and then what are the places well if where what are the places well if where what are the places well if where adaptation is required adaptation is required adaptation is required >> right and so adaptive leadership I think >> right and so adaptive leadership I think >> right and so adaptive leadership I think is really important because otherwise is really important because otherwise is really important because otherwise what's going to happen is you're going what's going to happen is you're going what's going to happen is you're going to be a clone of the predecessor or to be a clone of the predecessor or to be a clone of the predecessor or you're going to be something so you're going to be something so you're going to be something so different and I don't think I I think different and I don't think I I think different and I don't think I I think what communities need are points of what communities need are points of what communities need are points of continuity with the founder and the next continuity with the founder and the next continuity with the founder and the next person as well as important points of person as well as important points of person as well as important points of discontinuity what makes this person a discontinuity what makes this person a discontinuity what makes this person a bit different what are the areas of bit different what are the areas of bit different what are the areas of emphasis And um and so emphasis And um and so emphasis And um and so um and and then secondly skill-wise and um and and then secondly skill-wise and um and and then secondly skill-wise and this is so ministry specific and church this is so ministry specific and church this is so ministry specific and church specific um in my case I because of the specific um in my case I because of the specific um in my case I because of the emphasis of Pete swinging pendulums and emphasis of Pete swinging pendulums and emphasis of Pete swinging pendulums and and offering new initiatives. I mean I and offering new initiatives. I mean I and offering new initiatives. I mean I had to figure out ways to contextualize had to figure out ways to contextualize had to figure out ways to contextualize Yeah. and and systematize. Um but that Yeah. and and systematize. Um but that Yeah. and and systematize. Um but that was for me. Uh I think every pastor is was for me. Uh I think every pastor is was for me. Uh I think every pastor is going to have to figure that out in going to have to figure that out in going to have to figure that out in their own context.

their own context. their own context. Yeah, I mean I can see that if you were Yeah, I mean I can see that if you were Yeah, I mean I can see that if you were So Pete was there for 26 years. You've So Pete was there for 26 years. You've So Pete was there for 26 years. You've been there for 14 been there for 14 been there for 14 >> in this role. 18 as overall but >> in this role. 18 as overall but >> in this role. 18 as overall but >> 18 overall but 14 as lead pastor. >> 18 overall but 14 as lead pastor. >> 18 overall but 14 as lead pastor. Speaking about change, if somebody was Speaking about change, if somebody was Speaking about change, if somebody was to come and see your church today versus to come and see your church today versus to come and see your church today versus 14 years ago, 14 years ago, 14 years ago, >> would it be recognizable, totally >> would it be recognizable, totally >> would it be recognizable, totally different? Uh lots of twists. How would different? Uh lots of twists. How would different? Uh lots of twists. How would you describe it? Because and partly you you describe it? Because and partly you you describe it? Because and partly you know sometimes founders are like I want know sometimes founders are like I want know sometimes founders are like I want you to preserve my legacy. you to preserve my legacy. you to preserve my legacy. >> I think it's a disaster. >> I think it's a disaster. >> I think it's a disaster. >> Uh it's like no but what what what's >> Uh it's like no but what what what's >> Uh it's like no but what what what's what's different? What's sick? The same what's different? What's sick? The same what's different? What's sick? The same is the values that have made up our is the values that have made up our is the values that have made up our community like because these values were community like because these values were community like because these values were so formided in my own life. I believe I so formided in my own life. I believe I so formided in my own life. I believe I didn't I you didn't have to sell me on didn't I you didn't have to sell me on didn't I you didn't have to sell me on the values that changed my life. So when the values that changed my life. So when the values that changed my life. So when you're talking about emotional health or you're talking about emotional health or you're talking about emotional health or the contemplative life, you're talking the contemplative life, you're talking the contemplative life, you're talking about those formational values that about those formational values that about those formational values that remains. Now what changes is the level remains. Now what changes is the level remains. Now what changes is the level of emphasis that we place on these of emphasis that we place on these of emphasis that we place on these things here. Uh and so whereas in one uh things here. Uh and so whereas in one uh things here. Uh and so whereas in one uh season of our church's life, it's the season of our church's life, it's the season of our church's life, it's the contemplate. How do we slow down? Living contemplate. How do we slow down? Living contemplate. How do we slow down? Living in New York City, how do we slow down?

in New York City, how do we slow down? in New York City, how do we slow down? And then there are places where like And then there are places where like And then there are places where like right now we're in a big season of right now we're in a big season of right now we're in a big season of mission engagement where we are pushing mission engagement where we are pushing mission engagement where we are pushing we're pressing on this invitational we're pressing on this invitational we're pressing on this invitational culture that we've avoided for many culture that we've avoided for many culture that we've avoided for many years about invitation years about invitation years about invitation uh and making void we have not pressed uh and making void we have not pressed uh and making void we have not pressed on like invite your friends now people on like invite your friends now people on like invite your friends now people come and people do it. come and people do it. come and people do it. >> Yeah. But I it not until last year did >> Yeah. But I it not until last year did >> Yeah. But I it not until last year did we do like we're going to create lots of we do like we're going to create lots of we do like we're going to create lots of energy and move our church towards being energy and move our church towards being energy and move our church towards being super in invitational and small groups super in invitational and small groups super in invitational and small groups but not Sunday and it was my I think my but not Sunday and it was my I think my but not Sunday and it was my I think my own kind of reaction to like church own kind of reaction to like church own kind of reaction to like church growth stuff. growth stuff. growth stuff. >> Oh okay. And >> Oh okay. And >> Oh okay. And >> I was going to say was that intentional? >> I was going to say was that intentional? >> I was going to say was that intentional? >> Yeah it's probably my own like uh >> Yeah it's probably my own like uh >> Yeah it's probably my own like uh allergies to some of the church growth allergies to some of the church growth allergies to some of the church growth stuff that was invitational but not stuff that was invitational but not stuff that was invitational but not formational. And uh and I think the two formational. And uh and I think the two formational. And uh and I think the two can coexist. Okay, can coexist. Okay, can coexist. Okay, >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> We're going to look at >> We're going to look at >> We're going to look at >> However, I think I I swung the pendulum >> However, I think I I swung the pendulum >> However, I think I I swung the pendulum a bit. So, but now like the level of the a bit. So, but now like the level of the a bit. So, but now like the level of the of missional energy right now, of missional energy right now, of missional energy right now, evangelism, invitation is through the evangelism, invitation is through the evangelism, invitation is through the roof right now. In fact, we did this roof right now. In fact, we did this roof right now. In fact, we did this initiative is really funny called pick initiative is really funny called pick initiative is really funny called pick three.

three. three. Pray, invite, connect. You three people. Pray, invite, connect. You three people. Pray, invite, connect. You three people. So, I said over the next six months, we So, I said over the next six months, we So, I said over the next six months, we want you to pray for three people are want you to pray for three people are want you to pray for three people are not Christians that you're friends with not Christians that you're friends with not Christians that you're friends with or wherever. We want you to invite them. or wherever. We want you to invite them. or wherever. We want you to invite them. It doesn't have to be Sunday. It could It doesn't have to be Sunday. It could It doesn't have to be Sunday. It could be another event in the life of our be another event in the life of our be another event in the life of our church and that you would meaningfully church and that you would meaningfully church and that you would meaningfully connect with them and we do some classes connect with them and we do some classes connect with them and we do some classes how to do all that stuff there. how to do all that stuff there. how to do all that stuff there. >> Well, I didn't think people were were >> Well, I didn't think people were were >> Well, I didn't think people were were actually going to do it. I think I think actually going to do it. I think I think actually going to do it. I think I think people were just people signing up and people were just people signing up and people were just people signing up and inviting your friends inviting your friends inviting your friends with enthusiasm. And the funniest thing with enthusiasm. And the funniest thing with enthusiasm. And the funniest thing is when they introduce their new friend is when they introduce their new friend is when they introduce their new friend who's not a Christian, they go, "Pastor who's not a Christian, they go, "Pastor who's not a Christian, they go, "Pastor Rich, meet John. He's one of my pig Rich, meet John. He's one of my pig Rich, meet John. He's one of my pig three." three." three." >> That and I'm going, "No, like no, don't >> That and I'm going, "No, like no, don't >> That and I'm going, "No, like no, don't say it. Don't say that. say it. Don't say that. say it. Don't say that. >> And John, the the non-Christian, you >> And John, the the non-Christian, you >> And John, the the non-Christian, you know, who's there, he goes, I'm just so know, who's there, he goes, I'm just so know, who's there, he goes, I'm just so proud that he chose me as a as a pick proud that he chose me as a as a pick proud that he chose me as a as a pick three guy. Yeah, that's happened about three guy. Yeah, that's happened about three guy. Yeah, that's happened about four times in the last three months. four times in the last three months. four times in the last three months. We're sorry, this is my pick three. I'm We're sorry, this is my pick three. I'm We're sorry, this is my pick three. I'm like, no, that that's not what you want like, no, that that's not what you want like, no, that that's not what you want to say here. to say here. to say here. >> But all that to say, what what has >> But all that to say, what what has >> But all that to say, what what has changed is some of the emphasis. There changed is some of the emphasis. There changed is some of the emphasis. There are other things that change. Pete's are other things that change. Pete's are other things that change. Pete's Pete was not big on music.

Pete was not big on music. Pete was not big on music. >> I'm huge on music. M uh Pete didn't care >> I'm huge on music. M uh Pete didn't care >> I'm huge on music. M uh Pete didn't care much about stage design and and much about stage design and and much about stage design and and environment in that respect there small environment in that respect there small environment in that respect there small con in small groups he really cared con in small groups he really cared con in small groups he really cared about design there but the larger groups about design there but the larger groups about design there but the larger groups my thing was like how's the room look my thing was like how's the room look my thing was like how's the room look what's the lighting like what's the what's the lighting like what's the what's the lighting like what's the sound why is that person leading worship sound why is that person leading worship sound why is that person leading worship that person should be worship uh so I'm that person should be worship uh so I'm that person should be worship uh so I'm very like clear about those things there very like clear about those things there very like clear about those things there so you're going to see that's going to so you're going to see that's going to so you're going to see that's going to change um and then but the values of who change um and then but the values of who change um and then but the values of who we are that's we are that's we are that's >> that's it same what was your allergy to >> that's it same what was your allergy to >> that's it same what was your allergy to church growth. church growth. church growth. I think my allergy to church growth was I think my allergy to church growth was I think my allergy to church growth was um um um I had been part of churches that were I had been part of churches that were I had been part of churches that were very large or very thin. very large or very thin. very large or very thin. And so I think my own sense of wanting And so I think my own sense of wanting And so I think my own sense of wanting to avoid any I wanted to do formation. to avoid any I wanted to do formation. to avoid any I wanted to do formation. And I think I as a result um what I pri And I think I as a result um what I pri And I think I as a result um what I pri what I emphasize and prioritize even what I emphasize and prioritize even what I emphasize and prioritize even like let's look at alpha for example.

like let's look at alpha for example. like let's look at alpha for example. Yeah we did alpha when 2006 2007 we Yeah we did alpha when 2006 2007 we Yeah we did alpha when 2006 2007 we started doing alpha started doing alpha started doing alpha groups of 40 50 people that I mean our groups of 40 50 people that I mean our groups of 40 50 people that I mean our church started really growing. church started really growing. church started really growing. >> Yeah. And then uh we've started >> Yeah. And then uh we've started >> Yeah. And then uh we've started introducing emotionally healthy introducing emotionally healthy introducing emotionally healthy disciplehip material. Now there's only disciplehip material. Now there's only disciplehip material. Now there's only so much space in the church's calendar so much space in the church's calendar so much space in the church's calendar to where you going to emphasize he to where you going to emphasize he to where you going to emphasize he started emphasizing more formation but started emphasizing more formation but started emphasizing more formation but part of it I think it was I think it was part of it I think it was I think it was part of it I think it was I think it was part of Pete's allergy that got on me. part of Pete's allergy that got on me. part of Pete's allergy that got on me. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So his uh you know what did co had the >> So his uh you know what did co had the >> So his uh you know what did co had the uh transmissibility rate. So yeah so the uh transmissibility rate. So yeah so the uh transmissibility rate. So yeah so the transmissibility rate of his allergies transmissibility rate of his allergies transmissibility rate of his allergies were on me as well. were on me as well. were on me as well. >> Okay. So he was allergic to church >> Okay. So he was allergic to church >> Okay. So he was allergic to church grove. He he he was not enamored with grove. He he he was not enamored with grove. He he he was not enamored with growth growth growth but with depth. Yeah. but with depth. Yeah. but with depth. Yeah. >> And I think because of that back to the >> And I think because of that back to the >> And I think because of that back to the pendulum swingy his thing was I've had pendulum swingy his thing was I've had pendulum swingy his thing was I've had to hold together. We can do depth and we to hold together. We can do depth and we to hold together. We can do depth and we can do growth. And I think because of can do growth. And I think because of can do growth. And I think because of his kind of more prophetic kind of no his kind of more prophetic kind of no his kind of more prophetic kind of no we're going to do depth. So the church we're going to do depth. So the church we're going to do depth. So the church can go down to 30. We're going to do can go down to 30. We're going to do can go down to 30. We're going to do depth. Like okay this is Edogram 4 depth. Like okay this is Edogram 4 depth. Like okay this is Edogram 4 talking here. you know, but we're going talking here. you know, but we're going talking here. you know, but we're going to be unique, which is his favorite.

to be unique, which is his favorite. to be unique, which is his favorite. Well, be special. Well, be special. Well, be special. >> I'll be special, you know, but we're >> I'll be special, you know, but we're >> I'll be special, you know, but we're going to do this thing here. Uh, so I going to do this thing here. Uh, so I going to do this thing here. Uh, so I think, you know, I I've seen large think, you know, I I've seen large think, you know, I I've seen large churches are very thin spiritually churches are very thin spiritually churches are very thin spiritually speaking. Uh, and I wasn't impressed speaking. Uh, and I wasn't impressed speaking. Uh, and I wasn't impressed with it. Um, although I want to see the with it. Um, although I want to see the with it. Um, although I want to see the church grow, but that's not where my church grow, but that's not where my church grow, but that's not where my energy was going. Now I'm going, no, I energy was going. Now I'm going, no, I energy was going. Now I'm going, no, I think we can prioritize both depth as think we can prioritize both depth as think we can prioritize both depth as well as growth. And I think that's I'm well as growth. And I think that's I'm well as growth. And I think that's I'm in a fresh season of learning that. H in a fresh season of learning that. H in a fresh season of learning that. H what what um what changed your mind? what what um what changed your mind? what what um what changed your mind? In some respects, I think co the level In some respects, I think co the level In some respects, I think co the level of pain I saw, you know, Queens, our of pain I saw, you know, Queens, our of pain I saw, you know, Queens, our neighborhood was the global epicenter of neighborhood was the global epicenter of neighborhood was the global epicenter of the the the >> It was those pictures we remember from >> It was those pictures we remember from >> It was those pictures we remember from CO that was in your neighborhood CO that was in your neighborhood CO that was in your neighborhood >> one mile from people dying on >> one mile from people dying on >> one mile from people dying on stretchers. stretchers. stretchers. >> Put in refrigerators outside the there >> Put in refrigerators outside the there >> Put in refrigerators outside the there was no room in the hospitals for these was no room in the hospitals for these was no room in the hospitals for these dead bodies. And so the level of pain I dead bodies. And so the level of pain I dead bodies. And so the level of pain I saw, saw, saw, >> the level of spiritual openness I saw >> the level of spiritual openness I saw >> the level of spiritual openness I saw Yeah. I realize in a fresh way and it Yeah. I realize in a fresh way and it Yeah. I realize in a fresh way and it sounds so like yeah like people really sounds so like yeah like people really sounds so like yeah like people really need Jesus need Jesus need Jesus like I know that I say that every week like I know that I say that every week like I know that I say that every week but in terms of the level of how are we but in terms of the level of how are we but in terms of the level of how are we going to now build that out into our going to now build that out into our going to now build that out into our culture. We draw we want people to know culture. We draw we want people to know culture. We draw we want people to know who Christ is. And I think I think the who Christ is. And I think I think the who Christ is. And I think I think the pandemic pandemic pandemic um opened something up in me an um opened something up in me an um opened something up in me an evangelistic impulse that I had since evangelistic impulse that I had since evangelistic impulse that I had since the very beginning when I became a the very beginning when I became a the very beginning when I became a follower of Christ. I think I I think I follower of Christ. I think I I think I follower of Christ. I think I I think I do have a gift of evangelism and I think

do have a gift of evangelism and I think do have a gift of evangelism and I think I allowed that to just equip to quell I allowed that to just equip to quell I allowed that to just equip to quell that and I think it's coming back. that and I think it's coming back. that and I think it's coming back. >> Did your attitude toward seeing people >> Did your attitude toward seeing people >> Did your attitude toward seeing people reached church growth did that impact reached church growth did that impact reached church growth did that impact how quickly or slowly your church was how quickly or slowly your church was how quickly or slowly your church was growing? I mean there's that old saying growing? I mean there's that old saying growing? I mean there's that old saying speed of the leader speed of the team. speed of the leader speed of the team. speed of the leader speed of the team. So when you changed your mind did it So when you changed your mind did it So when you changed your mind did it change the trajectory change the trajectory change the trajectory about reaching new people in your about reaching new people in your about reaching new people in your church? Yeah, in very surprising ways. church? Yeah, in very surprising ways. church? Yeah, in very surprising ways. Yes. I for me it was like we're going to Yes. I for me it was like we're going to Yes. I for me it was like we're going to swing the pendulum. We're going to swing the pendulum. We're going to swing the pendulum. We're going to emphasize this. It might lead to emphasize this. It might lead to emphasize this. It might lead to nothing. Might lead to some marginal nothing. Might lead to some marginal nothing. Might lead to some marginal growth here. Um growth here. Um growth here. Um you know before the pandemic we were at you know before the pandemic we were at you know before the pandemic we were at three services. Our church is about 1500 three services. Our church is about 1500 three services. Our church is about 1500 people in our Queens location and we had people in our Queens location and we had people in our Queens location and we had to go back to one service then we're at to go back to one service then we're at to go back to one service then we're at two. We started doing this. We realize two. We started doing this. We realize two. We started doing this. We realize we have to go back to three now because we have to go back to three now because we have to go back to three now because of the amount of people that are coming of the amount of people that are coming of the amount of people that are coming to our church. So we have seen for sure to our church. So we have seen for sure to our church. So we have seen for sure correlation between that shift and the correlation between that shift and the correlation between that shift and the some folks are just so thrilled because some folks are just so thrilled because some folks are just so thrilled because they're they're evangelists or they they're they're evangelists or they they're they're evangelists or they right want to invite their friends and right want to invite their friends and right want to invite their friends and now that they have permission to do that now that they have permission to do that now that they have permission to do that in a way that we're doing it as a church in a way that we're doing it as a church in a way that we're doing it as a church as a whole. So I definitely seen in some as a whole. So I definitely seen in some as a whole. So I definitely seen in some surprising ways surprising ways surprising ways um you know that girl taking place. What um you know that girl taking place. What um you know that girl taking place. What are some of the emotional dynamics of are some of the emotional dynamics of are some of the emotional dynamics of leaving a church's insert?

I think in the church people are used to I think in the church people are used to a certain voice a certain voice a certain voice and and and you know it's the adage that people are you know it's the adage that people are you know it's the adage that people are it's not that people are afraid of it's not that people are afraid of it's not that people are afraid of change it's they're afraid of loss change it's they're afraid of loss change it's they're afraid of loss >> and um and so he was their shepherd. >> and um and so he was their shepherd. >> and um and so he was their shepherd. You you were the shepherd. You you were the shepherd. You you were the shepherd. >> Yeah. And so you get accustomed to a >> Yeah. And so you get accustomed to a >> Yeah. And so you get accustomed to a particular voice and so I think to to particular voice and so I think to to particular voice and so I think to to make space for that. So I so the make space for that. So I so the make space for that. So I so the emotional dynamics was just the levels emotional dynamics was just the levels emotional dynamics was just the levels the levels of grief. Um but also because the levels of grief. Um but also because the levels of grief. Um but also because Pete had 26 years of just relational Pete had 26 years of just relational Pete had 26 years of just relational investment. investment. investment. The emotional dynamic was there's not as The emotional dynamic was there's not as The emotional dynamic was there's not as much trust as much as Pete was in my much trust as much as Pete was in my much trust as much as Pete was in my corner everyone else. It just takes time corner everyone else. It just takes time corner everyone else. It just takes time for people to gain trust with the new for people to gain trust with the new for people to gain trust with the new person. And so there's some angst, person. And so there's some angst, person. And so there's some angst, there's some fear, there's some uh when there's some fear, there's some uh when there's some fear, there's some uh when something happens in society, can we tr something happens in society, can we tr something happens in society, can we tr can I trust rich in this moment? This can I trust rich in this moment? This can I trust rich in this moment? This episode is brought to you by Victory episode is brought to you by Victory episode is brought to you by Victory Beyond the Cup. So church leaders, this Beyond the Cup. So church leaders, this Beyond the Cup. So church leaders, this summer, as you may know, the World Cup summer, as you may know, the World Cup summer, as you may know, the World Cup kicks off. And that's when more than 5 kicks off. And that's when more than 5 kicks off. And that's when more than 5 billion people are paying attention to billion people are paying attention to billion people are paying attention to the same moment. When that happens, it's the same moment. When that happens, it's the same moment. When that happens, it's not just a sports event. It's a not just a sports event. It's a not just a sports event. It's a leadership opportunity. And Heather leadership opportunity. And Heather leadership opportunity. And Heather Ready from Crew is here. So Heather, Ready from Crew is here. So Heather, Ready from Crew is here. So Heather, what's Victory Beyond the Cup? Yeah.

what's Victory Beyond the Cup? Yeah. what's Victory Beyond the Cup? Yeah. Well, Victory Beyond the Cup is really Well, Victory Beyond the Cup is really Well, Victory Beyond the Cup is really about helping churches and believers about helping churches and believers about helping churches and believers recognize that this is a rare cultural recognize that this is a rare cultural recognize that this is a rare cultural moment that can be used for kingdom moment that can be used for kingdom moment that can be used for kingdom impact. Your neighbors, your co-workers, impact. Your neighbors, your co-workers, impact. Your neighbors, your co-workers, your communities will already be your communities will already be your communities will already be gathered and watching. And so, Victory gathered and watching. And so, Victory gathered and watching. And so, Victory Beyond the Cup helps pastors and Beyond the Cup helps pastors and Beyond the Cup helps pastors and believers steward that moment well, not believers steward that moment well, not believers steward that moment well, not by creating or launching new programs, by creating or launching new programs, by creating or launching new programs, but by using simple gatherings like but by using simple gatherings like but by using simple gatherings like watch parties to build relationships and watch parties to build relationships and watch parties to build relationships and open doors for gospel conversations. open doors for gospel conversations. open doors for gospel conversations. >> So, I mean, most church leaders kind of >> So, I mean, most church leaders kind of >> So, I mean, most church leaders kind of get this when it comes to the Super get this when it comes to the Super get this when it comes to the Super Bowl. We think that's a big event, but Bowl. We think that's a big event, but Bowl. We think that's a big event, but this is like exponentially bigger. So, this is like exponentially bigger. So, this is like exponentially bigger. So, how can church leaders lean into the how can church leaders lean into the how can church leaders lean into the World Cup? World Cup? World Cup? >> Yeah. So, we've created two free kits. >> Yeah. So, we've created two free kits. >> Yeah. So, we've created two free kits. They're free. And there's a pastor's kit They're free. And there's a pastor's kit They're free. And there's a pastor's kit that helps you cast vision and equip that helps you cast vision and equip that helps you cast vision and equip your church. And then there's a host kit your church. And then there's a host kit your church. And then there's a host kit that can be used to open your home, that can be used to open your home, that can be used to open your home, gather friends, and create space for gather friends, and create space for gather friends, and create space for meaningful conversations. It's really meaningful conversations. It's really meaningful conversations. It's really about making it simple for people to about making it simple for people to about making it simple for people to live out their faith in this incredible live out their faith in this incredible live out their faith in this incredible moment where people are already moment where people are already moment where people are already gathering. gathering. gathering. >> Well, that's good news for churches. And >> Well, that's good news for churches. And >> Well, that's good news for churches. And if you're ready to help your people step if you're ready to help your people step if you're ready to help your people step into really what truly is a global into really what truly is a global into really what truly is a global moment with intention and purpose, moment with intention and purpose, moment with intention and purpose, here's what you can do. Visit here's what you can do. Visit here's what you can do. Visit victorybebyondthecup.com victorybebyondthecup.com victorybebyondthecup.com and download the free kits. That is and download the free kits. That is and download the free kits. That is victorybeyondthecup.com.

victorybeyondthecup.com. victorybeyondthecup.com. >> How long did that take for them to stop >> How long did that take for them to stop >> How long did that take for them to stop looking to peace and start looking to looking to peace and start looking to looking to peace and start looking to you? >> I would say >> I would say I a large portion of the church because I a large portion of the church because I a large portion of the church because of our process was pretty slow. I think of our process was pretty slow. I think of our process was pretty slow. I think they started looking to me. Some of the they started looking to me. Some of the they started looking to me. Some of the older folks I probably tired maybe four older folks I probably tired maybe four older folks I probably tired maybe four years. years. years. >> What happened to you in the midst of >> What happened to you in the midst of >> What happened to you in the midst of that when you knew they were still that when you knew they were still that when you knew they were still living in Pete? living in Pete? living in Pete? >> Well, the great thing that Pete kept >> Well, the great thing that Pete kept >> Well, the great thing that Pete kept doing was he kept saying go to Rich. I doing was he kept saying go to Rich. I doing was he kept saying go to Rich. I said Pete wasn't said Pete wasn't said Pete wasn't >> Pete wasn't entertaining any of that. >> Pete wasn't entertaining any of that. >> Pete wasn't entertaining any of that. >> Uh and I and I had great confidence that >> Uh and I and I had great confidence that >> Uh and I and I had great confidence that anyone is going to Pete, Pete was going anyone is going to Pete, Pete was going anyone is going to Pete, Pete was going to be behind me 100%. You can trust to be behind me 100%. You can trust to be behind me 100%. You can trust Rich. Rich. Rich. >> And he was. But that took up to four >> And he was. But that took up to four >> And he was. But that took up to four years years years >> for some. Wow. Yeah. >> for some. Wow. Yeah. >> for some. Wow. Yeah. >> Wow. And then there's a bunch of new >> Wow. And then there's a bunch of new >> Wow. And then there's a bunch of new people that came in who have only known people that came in who have only known people that came in who have only known you, right? you, right? you, right? >> In fact, we did an emotionally healthy a >> In fact, we did an emotionally healthy a >> In fact, we did an emotionally healthy a spirituality course uh from September to spirituality course uh from September to spirituality course uh from September to November of this past year and sometimes November of this past year and sometimes November of this past year and sometimes he show his video cuz I want to like he show his video cuz I want to like he show his video cuz I want to like this is the guy who started the church.

this is the guy who started the church. this is the guy who started the church. I want to show a video of him like so I I want to show a video of him like so I I want to show a video of him like so I go who has never met Pete Scazero? And go who has never met Pete Scazero? And go who has never met Pete Scazero? And the vast majority of that room, their the vast majority of that room, their the vast majority of that room, their hands just go up. Wow. And it's like, oh hands just go up. Wow. And it's like, oh hands just go up. Wow. And it's like, oh yeah, we're in a new day right now. And yeah, we're in a new day right now. And yeah, we're in a new day right now. And one day, someone's going to go who's one day, someone's going to go who's one day, someone's going to go who's never met Rich support. Everybody's never met Rich support. Everybody's never met Rich support. Everybody's going to go in video. That's part of the going to go in video. That's part of the going to go in video. That's part of the deal. And Gordon McDonald's advice to me deal. And Gordon McDonald's advice to me deal. And Gordon McDonald's advice to me when I was transitioning into founding when I was transitioning into founding when I was transitioning into founding pastor was uh said, Gordon, what what pastor was uh said, Gordon, what what pastor was uh said, Gordon, what what what word of wisdom do you have? He what word of wisdom do you have? He what word of wisdom do you have? He goes, they forget you quickly. goes, they forget you quickly. goes, they forget you quickly. >> It's true. It's true. They forget you >> It's true. It's true. They forget you >> It's true. It's true. They forget you quickly. I've had to be introduced to quickly. I've had to be introduced to quickly. I've had to be introduced to volunteers. We wrote a Christmas Eve volunteers. We wrote a Christmas Eve volunteers. We wrote a Christmas Eve service uh last year and I would scan my service uh last year and I would scan my service uh last year and I would scan my ticket cuz we had free tickets and she's ticket cuz we had free tickets and she's ticket cuz we had free tickets and she's like, "Oh, I don't have your tickets not like, "Oh, I don't have your tickets not like, "Oh, I don't have your tickets not coming up. What's your name?" I'm like, coming up. What's your name?" I'm like, coming up. What's your name?" I'm like, "Nuh, huff nie." And then another "Nuh, huff nie." And then another "Nuh, huff nie." And then another volunteer saw what was going on and said volunteer saw what was going on and said volunteer saw what was going on and said came over and kind of intervened and came over and kind of intervened and came over and kind of intervened and said, "He started the church. I'll take said, "He started the church. I'll take said, "He started the church. I'll take this space." One guy comes Pete uh this space." One guy comes Pete uh this space." One guy comes Pete uh preached once, this is probably 2019.

preached once, this is probably 2019. preached once, this is probably 2019. And a guy who was new to the church who And a guy who was new to the church who And a guy who was new to the church who was just, you know, he was preaching was just, you know, he was preaching was just, you know, he was preaching very rarely at this time. He comes up to very rarely at this time. He comes up to very rarely at this time. He comes up to me goes that guy, you should add him to me goes that guy, you should add him to me goes that guy, you should add him to the preaching. the preaching. the preaching. >> And I was like, he's okay. I'm like, I >> And I was like, he's okay. I'm like, I >> And I was like, he's okay. I'm like, I don't think so. don't think so. don't think so. >> But he was like, they forget you. >> But he was like, they forget you. >> But he was like, they forget you. >> What's your relationship with Pete like >> What's your relationship with Pete like >> What's your relationship with Pete like now? You said he's one of the most now? You said he's one of the most now? You said he's one of the most influential people in your life. He's influential people in your life. He's influential people in your life. He's actually handed emotionally healthy actually handed emotionally healthy actually handed emotionally healthy >> disciplehip my friend Drew who we were >> disciplehip my friend Drew who we were >> disciplehip my friend Drew who we were both pastors at New Life. both pastors at New Life. both pastors at New Life. >> Y >> Y >> Y >> yeah so Drew is running that full-time >> yeah so Drew is running that full-time >> yeah so Drew is running that full-time and he is now what a full-time moch or and he is now what a full-time moch or and he is now what a full-time moch or so so so >> uh Pete is talked to >> uh Pete is talked to >> uh Pete is talked to >> it's funny he called me I called him a >> it's funny he called me I called him a >> it's funny he called me I called him a couple of days ago and all I heard was couple of days ago and all I heard was couple of days ago and all I heard was uh screaming screaming children. uh screaming screaming children. uh screaming screaming children. >> Oh uh his grandchildren. So he was rich >> Oh uh his grandchildren. So he was rich >> Oh uh his grandchildren. So he was rich I'll call you back. So, what's my I'll call you back. So, what's my I'll call you back. So, what's my relationship with? I I'd say we probably relationship with? I I'd say we probably relationship with? I I'd say we probably get in a call once a month and that call get in a call once a month and that call get in a call once a month and that call is usually an hour to an hour and a is usually an hour to an hour and a is usually an hour to an hour and a half. Uh, it's usually when I'm driving. half. Uh, it's usually when I'm driving. half. Uh, it's usually when I'm driving. Uh, and hey, Pasu and it's pure joy. Uh, Uh, and hey, Pasu and it's pure joy. Uh, Uh, and hey, Pasu and it's pure joy. Uh, he is um remains such an encourager.

he is um remains such an encourager. he is um remains such an encourager. Uh, from the very beginning he kept Uh, from the very beginning he kept Uh, from the very beginning he kept saying new life, this is new life 2.0. saying new life, this is new life 2.0. saying new life, this is new life 2.0. This is a new new life. And he kept This is a new new life. And he kept This is a new new life. And he kept offering that kind of language. till offering that kind of language. till offering that kind of language. till today. That's a good framing actually. today. That's a good framing actually. today. That's a good framing actually. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I wish I would have thought of that >> I I wish I would have thought of that >> I I wish I would have thought of that cuz it is Kexus 2.0. cuz it is Kexus 2.0. cuz it is Kexus 2.0. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I 1.0 >> I 1.0 >> I 1.0 >> did a decent job I think. Okay. >> did a decent job I think. Okay. >> did a decent job I think. Okay. >> And someone will say, "Oh, for 2.0 >> And someone will say, "Oh, for 2.0 >> And someone will say, "Oh, for 2.0 better." better." better." >> Yeah, that's a good framing. I think >> Yeah, that's a good framing. I think >> Yeah, that's a good framing. I think that would help outgoing pastors too that would help outgoing pastors too that would help outgoing pastors too think through. think through. think through. >> Yes. It's not the same. And they don't >> Yes. It's not the same. And they don't >> Yes. It's not the same. And they don't owe you anything, right? owe you anything, right? owe you anything, right? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But the the relationship remains >> But the the relationship remains >> But the the relationship remains uh wonderful. So, whenever I find myself uh wonderful. So, whenever I find myself uh wonderful. So, whenever I find myself stuck, even even today, there's moments stuck, even even today, there's moments stuck, even even today, there's moments of like, I just need someone who's been of like, I just need someone who's been of like, I just need someone who's been in this seat, I'm happy to talk to the in this seat, I'm happy to talk to the in this seat, I'm happy to talk to the board. I'm happy to talk to pastor board. I'm happy to talk to pastor board. I'm happy to talk to pastor friends. I'm happy to talk to my buddies friends. I'm happy to talk to my buddies friends. I'm happy to talk to my buddies from around the country, but this guy's from around the country, but this guy's from around the country, but this guy's pastored in this space for 26 years. He pastored in this space for 26 years. He pastored in this space for 26 years. He knows this community. And there are knows this community. And there are knows this community. And there are times where I just, Pete, I just need to times where I just, Pete, I just need to times where I just, Pete, I just need to hear your word of wisdom to this year.

hear your word of wisdom to this year. hear your word of wisdom to this year. >> Jeff Brody and I do that every other >> Jeff Brody and I do that every other >> Jeff Brody and I do that every other Thursday afternoon. We get together his Thursday afternoon. We get together his Thursday afternoon. We get together his invitation. I fire myself at the end of invitation. I fire myself at the end of invitation. I fire myself at the end of every year and he just it's his meaning. every year and he just it's his meaning. every year and he just it's his meaning. He can talk about whatever. He can vent. He can talk about whatever. He can vent. He can talk about whatever. He can vent. He can rant. He can rant. He can rant. >> He can ask questions. And I just kind of >> He can ask questions. And I just kind of >> He can ask questions. And I just kind of sit there. I really look forward to it. sit there. I really look forward to it. sit there. I really look forward to it. And sometimes I offer an opinion. And sometimes I offer an opinion. And sometimes I offer an opinion. Sometimes I just listen. I only talk Sometimes I just listen. I only talk Sometimes I just listen. I only talk when I'm, you know, I only offer an when I'm, you know, I only offer an when I'm, you know, I only offer an opinion when I'm asked opinion when I'm asked opinion when I'm asked >> because free advice is an appreciated >> because free advice is an appreciated >> because free advice is an appreciated advice. So, well, I can give that to the advice. So, well, I can give that to the advice. So, well, I can give that to the internet. I can give that to the internet. I can give that to the internet. I can give that to the internet. I'll just give my advice to internet. I'll just give my advice to internet. I'll just give my advice to the internet for free. So, okay. That's the internet for free. So, okay. That's the internet for free. So, okay. That's good. I want to talk about spiritual good. I want to talk about spiritual good. I want to talk about spiritual formation because that's such a big area formation because that's such a big area formation because that's such a big area of yours. Your books are in spiritual of yours. Your books are in spiritual of yours. Your books are in spiritual formation, but you also pastor in New formation, but you also pastor in New formation, but you also pastor in New York. York. York. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's a diverse community. I mean, >> And it's a diverse community. I mean, >> And it's a diverse community. I mean, politically politically politically >> and one of the stories of any kind of >> and one of the stories of any kind of >> and one of the stories of any kind of church right now is pastoring in a church right now is pastoring in a church right now is pastoring in a highly divided society. So, you're doing highly divided society. So, you're doing highly divided society. So, you're doing spiritual formation. And you and I have spiritual formation. And you and I have spiritual formation. And you and I have talked about this before. You've got talked about this before. You've got talked about this before. You've got people on both sides of the aisles in people on both sides of the aisles in people on both sides of the aisles in your church. You're not like a your church. You're not like a your church. You're not like a Republican church or a progressive Republican church or a progressive Republican church or a progressive church. you like you got a whole church. you like you got a whole church. you like you got a whole smattering of God's people. Is it 72 smattering of God's people. Is it 72 smattering of God's people. Is it 72 nations if I remember 80 now? 80 nations nations if I remember 80 now? 80 nations nations if I remember 80 now? 80 nations represented in your church. So people represented in your church. So people represented in your church. So people who have different perspectives, who have different perspectives, who have different perspectives, politics, politics, politics, um lifestyles, um lifestyles, um lifestyles, eat different foods, dress differently, eat different foods, dress differently, eat different foods, dress differently, like a real melting pot. Yeah. Which is like a real melting pot. Yeah. Which is like a real melting pot. Yeah. Which is heaven.

heaven. heaven. What are you learning about pastoring in What are you learning about pastoring in What are you learning about pastoring in a partisan age where everything is so a partisan age where everything is so a partisan age where everything is so hyperdivided and no matter what you do, hyperdivided and no matter what you do, hyperdivided and no matter what you do, you get criticism? you get criticism? you get criticism? >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I think I've learned that at the core of >> I think I've learned that at the core of >> I think I've learned that at the core of navigating that reality is to name this navigating that reality is to name this navigating that reality is to name this is not necessarily a political or a is not necessarily a political or a is not necessarily a political or a social reality to manage but an social reality to manage but an social reality to manage but an emotional one. What I mean by that is emotional one. What I mean by that is emotional one. What I mean by that is so much of the division we see in the so much of the division we see in the so much of the division we see in the world is marked by a level of fear that world is marked by a level of fear that world is marked by a level of fear that people are ill deep in their bows. If we people are ill deep in their bows. If we people are ill deep in their bows. If we can offer language for some of that can can offer language for some of that can can offer language for some of that can that's a really great starting point to that's a really great starting point to that's a really great starting point to begin to unwind and untangle the begin to unwind and untangle the begin to unwind and untangle the reactivity and emotionality reactivity and emotionality reactivity and emotionality that begins to arise whenever you're that begins to arise whenever you're that begins to arise whenever you're talking about big political divis talking about big political divis talking about big political divis issues. uh and so um so that's one two I issues. uh and so um so that's one two I issues. uh and so um so that's one two I think it's the emotional system of the think it's the emotional system of the think it's the emotional system of the community which is why for me you know community which is why for me you know community which is why for me you know systems thinking and family systems systems thinking and family systems systems thinking and family systems remains an important facet of pastoral remains an important facet of pastoral remains an important facet of pastoral ministry and formation in this moment in ministry and formation in this moment in ministry and formation in this moment in history history history >> how do we you know uh this idea of >> how do we you know uh this idea of >> how do we you know uh this idea of differentiation I think we've talked differentiation I think we've talked differentiation I think we've talked about it before and I get I keep getting about it before and I get I keep getting about it before and I get I keep getting tighter and tighter on my definition of tighter and tighter on my definition of tighter and tighter on my definition of it differentiation is this is this it differentiation is this is this it differentiation is this is this process of holding on to distinction process of holding on to distinction process of holding on to distinction without disconnection, especially in without disconnection, especially in without disconnection, especially in times of disagreement and distress.

times of disagreement and distress. times of disagreement and distress. >> So say that one more time. Three four >> So say that one more time. Three four >> So say that one more time. Three four deeds. It'll be memorable here. deeds. It'll be memorable here. deeds. It'll be memorable here. >> No, that's good. >> No, that's good. >> No, that's good. >> Distinction. I have it. I have thoughts >> Distinction. I have it. I have thoughts >> Distinction. I have it. I have thoughts on something. You have thoughts of on something. You have thoughts of on something. You have thoughts of something. There's distinct we're something. There's distinct we're something. There's distinct we're different. Distinction without different. Distinction without different. Distinction without disconnection. And by that I'm talking disconnection. And by that I'm talking disconnection. And by that I'm talking about emotional. about emotional. about emotional. >> We're going to say in relationship with >> We're going to say in relationship with >> We're going to say in relationship with in times of disagreement and distress. in times of disagreement and distress. in times of disagreement and distress. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. And so we we have Pete establishes and And so we we have Pete establishes and And so we we have Pete establishes and I've really built on this. Pete's I've really built on this. Pete's I've really built on this. Pete's doctorate in is is in family systems doctorate in is is in family systems doctorate in is is in family systems with the focus on the genog. with the focus on the genog. with the focus on the genog. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I have built on this to say the way >> And I have built on this to say the way >> And I have built on this to say the way to deal with the polarizing times that to deal with the polarizing times that to deal with the polarizing times that we're in is to pay attention to our own we're in is to pay attention to our own we're in is to pay attention to our own emotional functioning. emotional functioning. emotional functioning. >> And if we can begin to do that now that >> And if we can begin to do that now that >> And if we can begin to do that now that it's the time that's not you're not it's the time that's not you're not it's the time that's not you're not going to get that in a sernin. It's how going to get that in a sernin. It's how going to get that in a sernin. It's how are we building leaders? What's the are we building leaders? What's the are we building leaders? What's the ecosystem of formation in the community? ecosystem of formation in the community? ecosystem of formation in the community? >> Yeah. where we're giving people we're >> Yeah. where we're giving people we're >> Yeah. where we're giving people we're equipping people to pay attention to equipping people to pay attention to equipping people to pay attention to their emotional system so that the their emotional system so that the their emotional system so that the family dynamic of the church is not does family dynamic of the church is not does family dynamic of the church is not does not succumb to distress and and not succumb to distress and and not succumb to distress and and disagreement. Uh and so that's been a disagreement. Uh and so that's been a disagreement. Uh and so that's been a life's work over the last I I feel like life's work over the last I I feel like life's work over the last I I feel like I I I maybe what's the lesson of PhD in I I I maybe what's the lesson of PhD in I I I maybe what's the lesson of PhD in the last eight years I think I failed the last eight years I think I failed the last eight years I think I failed and I've learned a lot about how to be and I've learned a lot about how to be and I've learned a lot about how to be as well as well as well >> man. So let's talk about that because I >> man. So let's talk about that because I >> man. So let's talk about that because I mean so many pastors now we did a mean so many pastors now we did a mean so many pastors now we did a special episode with Ed Stzer and your special episode with Ed Stzer and your special episode with Ed Stzer and your friend Sharon Hottie Miller.

friend Sharon Hottie Miller. friend Sharon Hottie Miller. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And another gentleman from California. >> And another gentleman from California. >> And another gentleman from California. >> Yeah. Adam Mesa and they they were >> Yeah. Adam Mesa and they they were >> Yeah. Adam Mesa and they they were really helpful. But I hadn't heard the really helpful. But I hadn't heard the really helpful. But I hadn't heard the framing about it being an emotional framing about it being an emotional framing about it being an emotional thing. And you're right. I can disagree thing. And you're right. I can disagree thing. And you're right. I can disagree with you, with you, with you, >> but if I'm emotionally not in a healthy >> but if I'm emotionally not in a healthy >> but if I'm emotionally not in a healthy place Yeah. I see. But place Yeah. I see. But place Yeah. I see. But >> I'm just going to lose it on you. Yeah. >> I'm just going to lose it on you. Yeah. >> I'm just going to lose it on you. Yeah. >> Right. Like on a day where I've rested >> Right. Like on a day where I've rested >> Right. Like on a day where I've rested and have margin in my life, I'm in and have margin in my life, I'm in and have margin in my life, I'm in traffic and somebody cuts me off, I'm traffic and somebody cuts me off, I'm traffic and somebody cuts me off, I'm like what? No, he cut me off. A day when like what? No, he cut me off. A day when like what? No, he cut me off. A day when I'm fried, I'm fried, I'm fried, >> you know? >> you know? >> you know? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, so I think that's what you're >> So, so I think that's what you're >> So, so I think that's what you're getting at. How do you how do you let a getting at. How do you how do you let a getting at. How do you how do you let a church know like, dude, you're out of church know like, dude, you're out of church know like, dude, you're out of bounds. Like what what's the framing for bounds. Like what what's the framing for bounds. Like what what's the framing for that? Well, I I think I have tried to that? Well, I I think I have tried to that? Well, I I think I have tried to normalize normalize normalize anxiety as part of the human condition. anxiety as part of the human condition. anxiety as part of the human condition. And what I mean by anxiety is really And what I mean by anxiety is really And what I mean by anxiety is really important. I there's a number of pastors important. I there's a number of pastors important. I there's a number of pastors who say, "I don't feel anxiety." And who say, "I don't feel anxiety." And who say, "I don't feel anxiety." And what they mean by that is they don't what they mean by that is they don't what they mean by that is they don't feel excessive worry or concern.

feel excessive worry or concern. feel excessive worry or concern. Anxiety is far more than just excessive Anxiety is far more than just excessive Anxiety is far more than just excessive worry or concern. Anxiety is an worry or concern. Anxiety is an worry or concern. Anxiety is an automatic response to a real or automatic response to a real or automatic response to a real or perceived flare. perceived flare. perceived flare. And so anxiety can show up in anger. It And so anxiety can show up in anger. It And so anxiety can show up in anger. It can show up in coercion. It can show up can show up in coercion. It can show up can show up in coercion. It can show up in manipulation. It can show up in in manipulation. It can show up in in manipulation. It can show up in avoidance. It can show up in powering avoidance. It can show up in powering avoidance. It can show up in powering down or shrinking death. Uh and you call down or shrinking death. Uh and you call down or shrinking death. Uh and you call that every passing their leadership that every passing their leadership that every passing their leadership techniques. Uhoh. techniques. Uhoh. techniques. Uhoh. >> If if if we can name the presence of >> If if if we can name the presence of >> If if if we can name the presence of anxiety and in the myriad of forms it anxiety and in the myriad of forms it anxiety and in the myriad of forms it takes takes takes um I think in many respects it kind of um I think in many respects it kind of um I think in many respects it kind of equalizes a community of like this. all equalizes a community of like this. all equalizes a community of like this. all doing this and now the primary task as doing this and now the primary task as doing this and now the primary task as followers of Jesus in this community is followers of Jesus in this community is followers of Jesus in this community is to pay attention to my own reactivity. to pay attention to my own reactivity. to pay attention to my own reactivity. If we can start there, if we can start If we can start there, if we can start If we can start there, if we can start at that point, we are already so we're at that point, we are already so we're at that point, we are already so we're down the line now because we're not now down the line now because we're not now down the line now because we're not now trying to figure out the issue. We're trying to figure out the issue. We're trying to figure out the issue. We're not trying to deal with the issue first. not trying to deal with the issue first. not trying to deal with the issue first. We're trying to deal with our own We're trying to deal with our own We're trying to deal with our own emotional functioning first. When you emotional functioning first. When you emotional functioning first. When you start talking about the issue first start talking about the issue first start talking about the issue first without the emotional functioning that without the emotional functioning that without the emotional functioning that real this is why social media never gets real this is why social media never gets real this is why social media never gets anywhere around negotiating differences anywhere around negotiating differences anywhere around negotiating differences well on that platform. Yeah. Because no well on that platform. Yeah. Because no well on that platform. Yeah. Because no one's paying attention to their one's paying attention to their one's paying attention to their emotional process. They're paying emotional process. They're paying emotional process. They're paying attention to the issue. And so that's attention to the issue. And so that's attention to the issue. And so that's been my primary work is so when been my primary work is so when been my primary work is so when someone's out of line out of line number someone's out of line out of line number someone's out of line out of line number one I'm trying to pay attention to my one I'm trying to pay attention to my one I'm trying to pay attention to my own self. And then how do I have a own self. And then how do I have a own self. And then how do I have a mature conversation with someone with a mature conversation with someone with a mature conversation with someone with a goal of remaining close to them? See, my goal of remaining close to them? See, my goal of remaining close to them? See, my goal is not just to put you in your goal is not just to put you in your goal is not just to put you in your place. My goal is to remain close to you

place. My goal is to remain close to you place. My goal is to remain close to you and say that's a violation of our values and say that's a violation of our values and say that's a violation of our values >> and you know can talk about it. >> and you know can talk about it. >> and you know can talk about it. >> It's such a widespread issue. I mean, I >> It's such a widespread issue. I mean, I >> It's such a widespread issue. I mean, I was calling back some organization was calling back some organization was calling back some organization yesterday, got their voicemail thing, yesterday, got their voicemail thing, yesterday, got their voicemail thing, and it's like, just a note, any rude or and it's like, just a note, any rude or and it's like, just a note, any rude or intolerant behavior will not be intolerant behavior will not be intolerant behavior will not be tolerated by our team. We may kick you tolerated by our team. We may kick you tolerated by our team. We may kick you out as a client. This is like a out as a client. This is like a out as a client. This is like a disclaimer. Yeah. disclaimer. Yeah. disclaimer. Yeah. >> Almost everywhere. You go to a fast food >> Almost everywhere. You go to a fast food >> Almost everywhere. You go to a fast food restaurant, there's that sign. You go to restaurant, there's that sign. You go to restaurant, there's that sign. You go to a hospital, there's that sign. You go to a hospital, there's that sign. You go to a hospital, there's that sign. You go to wherever, there's that that voicemail wherever, there's that that voicemail wherever, there's that that voicemail prompt. And I'm like, what kind of world prompt. And I'm like, what kind of world prompt. And I'm like, what kind of world are we living in? And that's only there are we living in? And that's only there are we living in? And that's only there because they probably get yelled at, because they probably get yelled at, because they probably get yelled at, >> right, >> right, >> right, >> every day by some I rate persists. Um, >> every day by some I rate persists. Um, >> every day by some I rate persists. Um, so you got a whole church that's on so you got a whole church that's on so you got a whole church that's on edge. It's a tinder mox. Most people are edge. It's a tinder mox. Most people are edge. It's a tinder mox. Most people are frustrated. Most people are stressed. frustrated. Most people are stressed. frustrated. Most people are stressed. Yeah. How you disciple them? Is that a Yeah. How you disciple them? Is that a Yeah. How you disciple them? Is that a sermon series? It's like, guys, chill sermon series? It's like, guys, chill sermon series? It's like, guys, chill out. Like what if I know it's part of out. Like what if I know it's part of out. Like what if I know it's part of the emotionally healthy thing, but like the emotionally healthy thing, but like the emotionally healthy thing, but like what are you doing to make that part of what are you doing to make that part of what are you doing to make that part of the culture in your church? the culture in your church? the culture in your church? I I think the approach I've taken I I think the approach I've taken I I think the approach I've taken I I've discovered over the last 14 years I I've discovered over the last 14 years I I've discovered over the last 14 years this has been one of the learnings and this has been one of the learnings and this has been one of the learnings and it sounds so obvious but in fact um I it sounds so obvious but in fact um I it sounds so obvious but in fact um I think it was apostle Moses said today think it was apostle Moses said today think it was apostle Moses said today >> yes preaching like that like he thought >> yes preaching like that like he thought >> yes preaching like that like he thought preaching was just going to grow the preaching was just going to grow the preaching was just going to grow the church if you just had good sermons church if you just had good sermons church if you just had good sermons >> it's going to grow and sometimes it >> it's going to grow and sometimes it >> it's going to grow and sometimes it happens in some places there but happens in some places there but happens in some places there but >> uh I discovered that all my polished >> uh I discovered that all my polished >> uh I discovered that all my polished sermons are not nearly enough to create sermons are not nearly enough to create sermons are not nearly enough to create a new emotional system. And so the

a new emotional system. And so the a new emotional system. And so the approach I've taken I think in approach I've taken I think in approach I've taken I think in concentric circles about almost concentric circles about almost concentric circles about almost everything that I do. everything that I do. everything that I do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And by that I mean what are the >> And by that I mean what are the >> And by that I mean what are the communities the small starting small and communities the small starting small and communities the small starting small and it's usually four layers of concentric it's usually four layers of concentric it's usually four layers of concentric circles beginning with the board uh the circles beginning with the board uh the circles beginning with the board uh the le team the larger pastoral team and le team the larger pastoral team and le team the larger pastoral team and then the staff as a whole. then the staff as a whole. then the staff as a whole. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so how do I now work in that spaces >> And so how do I now work in that spaces >> And so how do I now work in that spaces with them which is to have a long view with them which is to have a long view with them which is to have a long view of formation. This is not going to of formation. This is not going to of formation. This is not going to happen in the sermon. if that can happen happen in the sermon. if that can happen happen in the sermon. if that can happen at the workshop. And so, for example, um at the workshop. And so, for example, um at the workshop. And so, for example, um 3 years ago, I had our board at the 3 years ago, I had our board at the 3 years ago, I had our board at the start of every board meeting month here, start of every board meeting month here, start of every board meeting month here, we were going to read a book by a guy we were going to read a book by a guy we were going to read a book by a guy named Peter Stanky called Uproar about, named Peter Stanky called Uproar about, named Peter Stanky called Uproar about, uh, you know, calm in an age of anxiety. uh, you know, calm in an age of anxiety. uh, you know, calm in an age of anxiety. And I said, we're in a really bad place And I said, we're in a really bad place And I said, we're in a really bad place as a country. Uh, we are we going to as a country. Uh, we are we going to as a country. Uh, we are we going to leak this book and we're going to talk leak this book and we're going to talk leak this book and we're going to talk about anxiety and the ways it's showing about anxiety and the ways it's showing about anxiety and the ways it's showing up in our church. That was a year of up in our church. That was a year of up in our church. That was a year of formation and then did the same with our formation and then did the same with our formation and then did the same with our staff team. Uh and so I think uh in the staff team. Uh and so I think uh in the staff team. Uh and so I think uh in the Americanized western like this has to Americanized western like this has to Americanized western like this has to happen very quickly here. It's it's happen very quickly here. It's it's happen very quickly here. It's it's totally antithetical to you know this totally antithetical to you know this totally antithetical to you know this their wonderful book the the early the their wonderful book the the early the their wonderful book the the early the patient firmament of the early church by patient firmament of the early church by patient firmament of the early church by Alan Krier about how the church grew Alan Krier about how the church grew Alan Krier about how the church grew very slowly. This is Eugene Peterson, very slowly. This is Eugene Peterson, very slowly. This is Eugene Peterson, you know, long obedience to the same you know, long obedience to the same you know, long obedience to the same direction that a guy came up to me today direction that a guy came up to me today direction that a guy came up to me today and said after one of the workshops.

and said after one of the workshops. and said after one of the workshops. So Rich, you've been talking about So Rich, you've been talking about So Rich, you've been talking about racism. You've been talking about racism. You've been talking about racism. You've been talking about whatever. I'm the new pastor. Um, how whatever. I'm the new pastor. Um, how whatever. I'm the new pastor. Um, how should I go about doing that? And I should I go about doing that? And I should I go about doing that? And I said, you listen to me very clearly uh said, you listen to me very clearly uh said, you listen to me very clearly uh carefully and do what I tell you. And I carefully and do what I tell you. And I carefully and do what I tell you. And I said, before you preach any sermon, no said, before you preach any sermon, no said, before you preach any sermon, no matter who's telling you on the internet matter who's telling you on the internet matter who's telling you on the internet to do it, and you should be talking to do it, and you should be talking to do it, and you should be talking about whatever like that. to what degree about whatever like that. to what degree about whatever like that. to what degree are you with your board and your senior are you with your board and your senior are you with your board and your senior team working through this first? team working through this first? team working through this first? And I said once you do that and if you And I said once you do that and if you And I said once you do that and if you get their trust in alignment then you get their trust in alignment then you get their trust in alignment then you can start talking large. But what can start talking large. But what can start talking large. But what pastors do is they're going right to the pastors do is they're going right to the pastors do is they're going right to the pulpit or the social media without trust pulpit or the social media without trust pulpit or the social media without trust without alignment there. That's why without alignment there. That's why without alignment there. That's why we're seeing you know all of the church we're seeing you know all of the church we're seeing you know all of the church splits and conflicts and all the rest splits and conflicts and all the rest splits and conflicts and all the rest there. you did this during uh last there. you did this during uh last there. you did this during uh last couple of election cycles too, right? couple of election cycles too, right? couple of election cycles too, right? Where you worked through uh your Where you worked through uh your Where you worked through uh your approach and that's really interesting, approach and that's really interesting, approach and that's really interesting, you know, because I I mean when I I you know, because I I mean when I I you know, because I I mean when I I stepped out of senior leadership in stepped out of senior leadership in stepped out of senior leadership in 2015, it was not nearly as divided as it 2015, it was not nearly as divided as it 2015, it was not nearly as divided as it is now, but I lead our company and I try is now, but I lead our company and I try is now, but I lead our company and I try to find that voice. Well, one of my to find that voice. Well, one of my to find that voice. Well, one of my approaches uh like for example, gossip.

approaches uh like for example, gossip. approaches uh like for example, gossip. Church gossip drove me crazy. We were a Church gossip drove me crazy. We were a Church gossip drove me crazy. We were a zero gossip culture. How do we get that zero gossip culture. How do we get that zero gossip culture. How do we get that through a church of thousands of people through a church of thousands of people through a church of thousands of people who called that church hold? It was who called that church hold? It was who called that church hold? It was easy. easy. easy. work through it with the staff. Yeah. work through it with the staff. Yeah. work through it with the staff. Yeah. Work through it with the board. We don't Work through it with the board. We don't Work through it with the board. We don't gossip. Somebody walks in my office, I'm gossip. Somebody walks in my office, I'm gossip. Somebody walks in my office, I'm like, "Oh, you got problem with Rich? like, "Oh, you got problem with Rich? like, "Oh, you got problem with Rich? You talk to Rich, You talk to Rich, You talk to Rich, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Go talk with Rich." "Oh, it's not that >> Go talk with Rich." "Oh, it's not that >> Go talk with Rich." "Oh, it's not that big a deal." Well, then you don't have big a deal." Well, then you don't have big a deal." Well, then you don't have the problem. Or or you know, then yeah, the problem. Or or you know, then yeah, the problem. Or or you know, then yeah, go and talk to Rich and you guys work it go and talk to Rich and you guys work it go and talk to Rich and you guys work it out. And if you can't, I read Matthew out. And if you can't, I read Matthew out. And if you can't, I read Matthew 18. So did you. Come and see me and 18. So did you. Come and see me and 18. So did you. Come and see me and we'll see if we can work it out between we'll see if we can work it out between we'll see if we can work it out between you. I never had to blow the whistle and you. I never had to blow the whistle and you. I never had to blow the whistle and play the cough because they always play the cough because they always play the cough because they always worked it out or it wasn't a big deal. worked it out or it wasn't a big deal. worked it out or it wasn't a big deal. We don't have a gossiping church. It's We don't have a gossiping church. It's We don't have a gossiping church. It's amazing and our cultural values. I have amazing and our cultural values. I have amazing and our cultural values. I have a small company now team-wise, but like a small company now team-wise, but like a small company now team-wise, but like it's amazing. We have 20,000 leaders in it's amazing. We have 20,000 leaders in it's amazing. We have 20,000 leaders in the art of leadership academy. There's a the art of leadership academy. There's a the art of leadership academy. There's a code of conduct that you read when you code of conduct that you read when you code of conduct that you read when you enter. We don't have fights enter. We don't have fights enter. We don't have fights >> and it's a digital forum. It's amazing. >> and it's a digital forum. It's amazing. >> and it's a digital forum. It's amazing. But that's that speed of leader speed of But that's that speed of leader speed of But that's that speed of leader speed of the team thing. So what you're saying is the team thing. So what you're saying is the team thing. So what you're saying is a lot harder than the next sermon series a lot harder than the next sermon series a lot harder than the next sermon series or the next real you're going to post or or the next real you're going to post or or the next real you're going to post or the next story you're going to post. But the next story you're going to post. But the next story you're going to post. But what you're saying is you work through what you're saying is you work through what you're saying is you work through this at the top and if you get healthy this at the top and if you get healthy this at the top and if you get healthy at the top, you'll be healthy at the top, you'll be healthy at the top, you'll be healthy throughout. If you get healthy at the throughout. If you get healthy at the throughout. If you get healthy at the top, you'll be healthy. What happens top, you'll be healthy. What happens top, you'll be healthy. What happens there? Like if you're walking your there? Like if you're walking your there? Like if you're walking your elders, you got Republic, you have both elders, you got Republic, you have both elders, you got Republic, you have both sides of the aisle on your board. Yes, sides of the aisle on your board. Yes, sides of the aisle on your board. Yes, we do. Hopefully, you do.

we do. Hopefully, you do. we do. Hopefully, you do. >> Yes, we do. >> Yes, we do. >> Yes, we do. >> Right. That's a good thing. You have >> Right. That's a good thing. You have >> Right. That's a good thing. You have people who don't always agree. people who don't always agree. people who don't always agree. >> What does that look like? Does it get >> What does that look like? Does it get >> What does that look like? Does it get rough in the private conversations? Do rough in the private conversations? Do rough in the private conversations? Do you like how do you handle that? you like how do you handle that? you like how do you handle that? >> When >> When >> When almost every uh election cycle I do at almost every uh election cycle I do at almost every uh election cycle I do at least a three unique series on least a three unique series on least a three unique series on navigating and what I say at the start navigating and what I say at the start navigating and what I say at the start like I said last time if you vote for no like I said last time if you vote for no like I said last time if you vote for no matter who you vote for you're welcome matter who you vote for you're welcome matter who you vote for you're welcome to come to the church. If you vote for to come to the church. If you vote for to come to the church. If you vote for Trump to vote for Harris you're welcome Trump to vote for Harris you're welcome Trump to vote for Harris you're welcome to come. I only ask you do a few things to come. I only ask you do a few things to come. I only ask you do a few things and this is what I do at the board and this is what I do at the board and this is what I do at the board meetings as well. Number one, I I ask meetings as well. Number one, I I ask meetings as well. Number one, I I ask that I that you would you would attempt that I that you would you would attempt that I that you would you would attempt as hard as you can to see um Jesus not as hard as you can to see um Jesus not as hard as you can to see um Jesus not see Jesus through your politics to see see Jesus through your politics to see see Jesus through your politics to see your politics do the kingdom of God in your politics do the kingdom of God in your politics do the kingdom of God in sermon on the mount to Jesus that you sermon on the mount to Jesus that you sermon on the mount to Jesus that you would be humble uh you would be curious would be humble uh you would be curious would be humble uh you would be curious about why those in our church will see about why those in our church will see about why those in our church will see something in different manner than you something in different manner than you something in different manner than you do and it's just naming it's clarifying do and it's just naming it's clarifying do and it's just naming it's clarifying expectations expectations expectations you know uh in the emotionally healthy you know uh in the emotionally healthy you know uh in the emotionally healthy world An expectation world An expectation world An expectation is only valid when four things happen.

is only valid when four things happen. is only valid when four things happen. When it's conscious, when it is spoken, When it's conscious, when it is spoken, When it's conscious, when it is spoken, when it's realistic, when it's breeds, when it's realistic, when it's breeds, when it's realistic, when it's breeds, when those four things happen, you have when those four things happen, you have when those four things happen, you have a valid expectation. And so I'm a valid expectation. And so I'm a valid expectation. And so I'm consistently clarifying expectations to consistently clarifying expectations to consistently clarifying expectations to be on this board on this on this level be on this board on this on this level be on this board on this on this level of leadership requires such maturity of leadership requires such maturity of leadership requires such maturity requires a level of growth of requires a level of growth of requires a level of growth of self-awareness that if you're going to self-awareness that if you're going to self-awareness that if you're going to violate our values in this way, you violate our values in this way, you violate our values in this way, you don't have what it takes to be on the don't have what it takes to be on the don't have what it takes to be on the board. And that's I don't probably say board. And that's I don't probably say board. And that's I don't probably say it as strong, maybe just a tad lower it as strong, maybe just a tad lower it as strong, maybe just a tad lower than that, but you're clear. But I'm than that, but you're clear. But I'm than that, but you're clear. But I'm clear if if we have a rule of life for clear if if we have a rule of life for clear if if we have a rule of life for elders that we are looking to not elders that we are looking to not elders that we are looking to not perfectly, we're not going to do it perfectly, we're not going to do it perfectly, we're not going to do it perfectly, but we're going to wrestle perfectly, but we're going to wrestle perfectly, but we're going to wrestle with faithfully. But it's a consistent with faithfully. But it's a consistent with faithfully. But it's a consistent clarifying expectations. We don't do clarifying expectations. We don't do clarifying expectations. We don't do that here. that here. that here. >> And I I think that's one of the ways. >> And I I think that's one of the ways. >> And I I think that's one of the ways. That doesn't mean that there's not That doesn't mean that there's not That doesn't mean that there's not legitimate good conversation and people legitimate good conversation and people legitimate good conversation and people are passionate. We start talking about are passionate. We start talking about are passionate. We start talking about big issues, people are going to get big issues, people are going to get big issues, people are going to get passionate. But that doesn't mean you passionate. But that doesn't mean you passionate. But that doesn't mean you have to be demeaning. That doesn't mean have to be demeaning. That doesn't mean have to be demeaning. That doesn't mean you have to be dismissive. doesn't mean you have to be dismissive. doesn't mean you have to be dismissive. doesn't mean to get you can be condescending. Um, we to get you can be condescending. Um, we to get you can be condescending. Um, we don't I don't want you to be robots, don't I don't want you to be robots, don't I don't want you to be robots, emotional robots here. Uh, and when you emotional robots here. Uh, and when you emotional robots here. Uh, and when you get that level of diversity, when you get that level of diversity, when you get that level of diversity, when you get Latinos and black folk that are get Latinos and black folk that are get Latinos and black folk that are just, you know, they're not going to go just, you know, they're not going to go just, you know, they're not going to go out quiet, out quiet, out quiet, >> they got opinions. They got opinions and >> they got opinions. They got opinions and >> they got opinions. They got opinions and you're going to hear it. So, how do you you're going to hear it. So, how do you you're going to hear it. So, how do you navigate that like on a border at a navigate that like on a border at a navigate that like on a border at a staff level? You just let them speak staff level? You just let them speak staff level? You just let them speak freely.

freely. freely. >> Yeah. I I think I think volume does not >> Yeah. I I think I think volume does not >> Yeah. I I think I think volume does not necessarily mean like damage or and I necessarily mean like damage or and I necessarily mean like damage or and I think nor this is why a in a think nor this is why a in a think nor this is why a in a multicultural context multicultural context multicultural context uh there's so many nuances to uh there's so many nuances to uh there's so many nuances to communication and whereas people will communication and whereas people will communication and whereas people will people will interpret someone speaking people will interpret someone speaking people will interpret someone speaking loudly as people being angry. loudly as people being angry. loudly as people being angry. Uh because if you uh you know people who Uh because if you uh you know people who Uh because if you uh you know people who are uh angry speak loud as opposed to no are uh angry speak loud as opposed to no are uh angry speak loud as opposed to no these are personalities and cultures at these are personalities and cultures at these are personalities and cultures at work. Now Rosie eight on the anagram work. Now Rosie eight on the anagram work. Now Rosie eight on the anagram her thing is Lee or get out of the way. her thing is Lee or get out of the way. her thing is Lee or get out of the way. Uh that's my wife. I'm a seven on the Uh that's my wife. I'm a seven on the Uh that's my wife. I'm a seven on the enagram. Ro Ros Rosie is very strong and enagram. Ro Ros Rosie is very strong and enagram. Ro Ros Rosie is very strong and when she process this she processes when she process this she processes when she process this she processes passion. She's not not not no not with passion. She's not not not no not with passion. She's not not not no not with meanness in her bones here, but she's in meanness in her bones here, but she's in meanness in her bones here, but she's in a process. So, we've had to in a a process. So, we've had to in a a process. So, we've had to in a multicultural context make space or multicultural context make space or multicultural context make space or process. process. process. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that process does not mean >> And that process does not mean >> And that process does not mean necessarily necessarily necessarily uh uh people are being dismissive or uh uh people are being dismissive or uh uh people are being dismissive or condescending. And Carrie, honestly, um condescending. And Carrie, honestly, um condescending. And Carrie, honestly, um we've had to do a lot of checking, a lot we've had to do a lot of checking, a lot we've had to do a lot of checking, a lot of hey, you said that. Is are you upset of hey, you said that. Is are you upset of hey, you said that. Is are you upset with me with that there? And I can I can with me with that there? And I can I can with me with that there? And I can I can I check an assumption with you? Um, and I check an assumption with you? Um, and I check an assumption with you? Um, and we've had to exercise a lot of skills in we've had to exercise a lot of skills in we've had to exercise a lot of skills in a multi-thnic, multicultural context.

a multi-thnic, multicultural context. a multi-thnic, multicultural context. It's it's a landmine by context. It's it's a landmine by context. It's it's a landmine by context. >> I mean, there are books about that for >> I mean, there are books about that for >> I mean, there are books about that for business people about, hey, if you're business people about, hey, if you're business people about, hey, if you're doing business in Japan, doing business doing business in Japan, doing business doing business in Japan, doing business in China, doing business in India, in China, doing business in India, in China, doing business in India, Russia, wherever you happen to be, Russia, wherever you happen to be, Russia, wherever you happen to be, here's the cultural code. here's the cultural code. here's the cultural code. >> Yes, you know, you must bow down or you >> Yes, you know, you must bow down or you >> Yes, you know, you must bow down or you don't. Or please address somebody by don't. Or please address somebody by don't. Or please address somebody by mister. But that's true. You know, I've mister. But that's true. You know, I've mister. But that's true. You know, I've heard of of certain cultures. It's like, heard of of certain cultures. It's like, heard of of certain cultures. It's like, no, when we yell, that's our love link. no, when we yell, that's our love link. no, when we yell, that's our love link. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Right. Like that means I care about you. >> Right. Like that means I care about you. >> Right. Like that means I care about you. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And being clear like in in our trying to >> And being clear like in in our trying to >> And being clear like in in our trying to you know there's a guy I was working you know there's a guy I was working you know there's a guy I was working with recently Filipino guy and uh he you with recently Filipino guy and uh he you with recently Filipino guy and uh he you know in some not all in some Asian know in some not all in some Asian know in some not all in some Asian contexts to be assertive to make to contexts to be assertive to make to contexts to be assertive to make to enter into a room make space is very enter into a room make space is very enter into a room make space is very difficult just general culture it's more difficult just general culture it's more difficult just general culture it's more they want to be invited in. And for him, they want to be invited in. And for him, they want to be invited in. And for him, I'm noticing he's not I'm noticing he's not I'm noticing he's not stepping in in the way that he should be stepping in in the way that he should be stepping in in the way that he should be in terms of asserting himself in his in terms of asserting himself in his in terms of asserting himself in his area of expertise where this is his area area of expertise where this is his area area of expertise where this is his area of expertise. And he goes, "Oh, it's my of expertise. And he goes, "Oh, it's my of expertise. And he goes, "Oh, it's my it's my it's my Filipino thing, and I it's my it's my Filipino thing, and I it's my it's my Filipino thing, and I just I don't want to I don't want to just I don't want to I don't want to just I don't want to I don't want to insert myself." And I had to tell him, insert myself." And I had to tell him, insert myself." And I had to tell him, "I need you to win searchers."

"I need you to win searchers." "I need you to win searchers." >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I we need this if this project is going >> I we need this if this project is going >> I we need this if this project is going to go well, you better step in because to go well, you better step in because to go well, you better step in because this is why we brought you here. But this is why we brought you here. But this is why we brought you here. But it's just the nuances which is why to it's just the nuances which is why to it's just the nuances which is why to pastor in our cont it's taken me a pastor in our cont it's taken me a pastor in our cont it's taken me a number of years to be at ease in my role number of years to be at ease in my role number of years to be at ease in my role and you're just like they're just being and you're just like they're just being and you're just like they're just being passionate. They're just being passionate. They're just being passionate. They're just being themselves. themselves. themselves. >> Yeah. So I mean getting a little more >> Yeah. So I mean getting a little more >> Yeah. So I mean getting a little more specific. You've had a lot of moments specific. You've had a lot of moments specific. You've had a lot of moments because you've been doing this for 14 because you've been doing this for 14 because you've been doing this for 14 years. So that would be what since 2012. years. So that would be what since 2012. years. So that would be what since 2012. So you made it through co u more So you made it through co u more So you made it through co u more recently Charlie Kirk. We had all, you recently Charlie Kirk. We had all, you recently Charlie Kirk. We had all, you know, George Floyd. We had all kinds of know, George Floyd. We had all kinds of know, George Floyd. We had all kinds of moments that were highly political, moments that were highly political, moments that were highly political, polarized. We're in a war as we record polarized. We're in a war as we record polarized. We're in a war as we record this right now. this right now. this right now. And most pastors are finding because And most pastors are finding because And most pastors are finding because people are discipled by the algorithm, people are discipled by the algorithm, people are discipled by the algorithm, >> right? What their phones are telling >> right? What their phones are telling >> right? What their phones are telling them, the content is more extreme the them, the content is more extreme the them, the content is more extreme the longer you're on it because that's what longer you're on it because that's what longer you're on it because that's what gets attention and that's what makes the gets attention and that's what makes the gets attention and that's what makes the company's money. company's money. company's money. So like, walk us through some examples.

So like, walk us through some examples. So like, walk us through some examples. just pick one of those or think of just pick one of those or think of just pick one of those or think of another one where how do you pastor your another one where how do you pastor your another one where how do you pastor your congregation through a critical cultural congregation through a critical cultural congregation through a critical cultural moment where people were crazy. moment where people were crazy. moment where people were crazy. >> Yeah. Um at my best and I I think I've >> Yeah. Um at my best and I I think I've >> Yeah. Um at my best and I I think I've learned a lot of things here. I have learned a lot of things here. I have learned a lot of things here. I have recognized that recognized that recognized that anything I say that's going to be anything I say that's going to be anything I say that's going to be helpful for the community, these helpful for the community, these helpful for the community, these communalists communalists communalists is if I'm expecting to be Moses to come is if I'm expecting to be Moses to come is if I'm expecting to be Moses to come down from the mountain and say, "Thus down from the mountain and say, "Thus down from the mountain and say, "Thus says the Lord." says the Lord." says the Lord." >> She's sitting there at 7:00 p.m. with >> She's sitting there at 7:00 p.m. with >> She's sitting there at 7:00 p.m. with your phone all alone going, "I'm going your phone all alone going, "I'm going your phone all alone going, "I'm going to straighten this out." to straighten this out." to straighten this out." >> Uh, no. >> Uh, no. >> Uh, no. >> And so, typically what I do is I begin >> And so, typically what I do is I begin >> And so, typically what I do is I begin with a draft. I begin with, "Here are with a draft. I begin with, "Here are with a draft. I begin with, "Here are the things that I'm really thinking the things that I'm really thinking the things that I'm really thinking about." about." about." >> So, not an immediate response. Bubble >> So, not an immediate response. Bubble >> So, not an immediate response. Bubble sniff. sniff. sniff. >> No. No. You know, sometimes >> No. No. You know, sometimes >> No. No. You know, sometimes uh the craziness happens on a Friday, uh the craziness happens on a Friday, uh the craziness happens on a Friday, Carrie. I'm just like, can we can Carrie. I'm just like, can we can Carrie. I'm just like, can we can everything happen on Monday? Can we just everything happen on Monday? Can we just everything happen on Monday? Can we just have Monday madness? have Monday madness? have Monday madness? >> Put her back in the office, >> Put her back in the office, >> Put her back in the office, >> you know? So, I I have six days to >> you know? So, I I have six days to >> you know? So, I I have six days to prepare for my response. prepare for my response. prepare for my response. >> I wish life is not as neat as that. So, >> I wish life is not as neat as that. So, >> I wish life is not as neat as that. So, here's two things. One, I'm fine even on here's two things. One, I'm fine even on here's two things. One, I'm fine even on social.

social. social. >> Yeah. Well, on on social, but part of it >> Yeah. Well, on on social, but part of it >> Yeah. Well, on on social, but part of it for me is I'm a recognition of what is for me is I'm a recognition of what is for me is I'm a recognition of what is um calling and what is context. um calling and what is context. um calling and what is context. I feel uniquely called but I'm but I I feel uniquely called but I'm but I I feel uniquely called but I'm but I think God has given me for task to offer think God has given me for task to offer think God has given me for task to offer a different vision of what it means to a different vision of what it means to a different vision of what it means to follow Jesus. Yeah. And I want to follow Jesus. Yeah. And I want to follow Jesus. Yeah. And I want to be vocal about that. Um that there's be vocal about that. Um that there's be vocal about that. Um that there's there's a different way of showing up in there's a different way of showing up in there's a different way of showing up in the world. And so I feel burdened to do the world. And so I feel burdened to do the world. And so I feel burdened to do this. No, even on on social media, um uh this. No, even on on social media, um uh this. No, even on on social media, um uh I have a very clear person in mind on I have a very clear person in mind on I have a very clear person in mind on social media here when I when I post. social media here when I when I post. social media here when I when I post. And And And >> so you're you're targeting someone >> so you're you're targeting someone >> so you're you're targeting someone Indians Indians Indians >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I'm targeting I I had two I won't share >> I'm targeting I I had two I won't share >> I'm targeting I I had two I won't share their names, but I have two names of their names, but I have two names of their names, but I have two names of people. people. people. >> Oh, like specific not even a persona. >> Oh, like specific not even a persona. >> Oh, like specific not even a persona. >> Yeah. But and they represent >> Yeah. But and they represent >> Yeah. But and they represent they number one people who have given up they number one people who have given up they number one people who have given up on the church and people who are not on the church and people who are not on the church and people who are not Christians. So you're posting not for Christians. So you're posting not for Christians. So you're posting not for your church but for the people you have your church but for the people you have your church but for the people you have yet.

yet. yet. >> That's my evangelistic kind of impulse >> That's my evangelistic kind of impulse >> That's my evangelistic kind of impulse that's in it. Just kidding. And so that that's in it. Just kidding. And so that that's in it. Just kidding. And so that means there going to be a lot of people means there going to be a lot of people means there going to be a lot of people who don't like what I say who are poor who don't like what I say who are poor who don't like what I say who are poor church. church. church. >> And my response now that means I'm going >> And my response now that means I'm going >> And my response now that means I'm going to lose followers all the time. I'm to lose followers all the time. I'm to lose followers all the time. I'm always losing engagement. Yeah. On always losing engagement. Yeah. On always losing engagement. Yeah. On social media no matter what they say. social media no matter what they say. social media no matter what they say. But I'm like this is the these are the But I'm like this is the these are the But I'm like this is the these are the folks that I feel primarily called on folks that I feel primarily called on folks that I feel primarily called on this level on social med. this level on social med. this level on social med. That's different in my church. That's different in my church. That's different in my church. >> So, how I respond to our church and what >> So, how I respond to our church and what >> So, how I respond to our church and what do I say? Which is to say, I often think do I say? Which is to say, I often think do I say? Which is to say, I often think about pastoral prayers before pastoral about pastoral prayers before pastoral about pastoral prayers before pastoral stance. A lot of people are not looking stance. A lot of people are not looking stance. A lot of people are not looking necessarily for clarity, looking for necessarily for clarity, looking for necessarily for clarity, looking for empathy. empathy. empathy. >> And so, if I can get up and say, "Hey, >> And so, if I can get up and say, "Hey, >> And so, if I can get up and say, "Hey, can we pray about what's happening in can we pray about what's happening in can we pray about what's happening in our world, I might not have all the our world, I might not have all the our world, I might not have all the answers, but we can certainly pray." And answers, but we can certainly pray." And answers, but we can certainly pray." And it just buys me more time to think about it just buys me more time to think about it just buys me more time to think about what do I need to say? First of all, what do I need to say? First of all, what do I need to say? First of all, it's not just like the prefuntery thing. it's not just like the prefuntery thing. it's not just like the prefuntery thing. We're going to do it just to buy some We're going to do it just to buy some We're going to do it just to buy some more time here. I want we need to pray more time here. I want we need to pray more time here. I want we need to pray and I think it's pastoral wisdom to say and I think it's pastoral wisdom to say and I think it's pastoral wisdom to say I don't have all the details yet. I don't have all the details yet. I don't have all the details yet. >> I don't have all the data yet. >> I don't have all the data yet. >> I don't have all the data yet. >> Yeah. I I'm I'm learning about this >> Yeah. I I'm I'm learning about this >> Yeah. I I'm I'm learning about this geopolitical reality for the first time geopolitical reality for the first time geopolitical reality for the first time in my life and I'm I'm supposed to be an in my life and I'm I'm supposed to be an in my life and I'm I'm supposed to be an expert on this thing here. It's not expert on this thing here. It's not expert on this thing here. It's not going to happen. Well, the other thing I going to happen. Well, the other thing I going to happen. Well, the other thing I think I've seen you do is there are think I've seen you do is there are think I've seen you do is there are moments where my feed is blowing up with moments where my feed is blowing up with moments where my feed is blowing up with people taking positions people taking positions people taking positions and you'll show up on my feed cuz I and you'll show up on my feed cuz I and you'll show up on my feed cuz I follow you and often it's delayed a follow you and often it's delayed a follow you and often it's delayed a little bit. It's not immediate. It's not little bit. It's not immediate. It's not little bit. It's not immediate. It's not in the moment. You're not first to the in the moment. You're not first to the in the moment. You're not first to the phone. But what I'll see you do sometime phone. But what I'll see you do sometime phone. But what I'll see you do sometime and tell me if it's just an outlier and

and tell me if it's just an outlier and and tell me if it's just an outlier and it's not a pattern. You'll draw a quote it's not a pattern. You'll draw a quote it's not a pattern. You'll draw a quote from some sage from a thousand years ago from some sage from a thousand years ago from some sage from a thousand years ago or 100 years ago or 10 years ago that or 100 years ago or 10 years ago that or 100 years ago or 10 years ago that just sort of speaks calm or a kingdom just sort of speaks calm or a kingdom just sort of speaks calm or a kingdom perspective to it. perspective to it. perspective to it. >> In other words, I'm commenting on this >> In other words, I'm commenting on this >> In other words, I'm commenting on this by not commenting on this but telling by not commenting on this but telling by not commenting on this but telling you reminding you of something we all you reminding you of something we all you reminding you of something we all agree. agree. agree. >> Is that true? Is that a pattern I'm >> Is that true? Is that a pattern I'm >> Is that true? Is that a pattern I'm seeing? Yeah. I'm looking for number seeing? Yeah. I'm looking for number seeing? Yeah. I'm looking for number one. I'm trying to name what we're one. I'm trying to name what we're one. I'm trying to name what we're seeing here is not something unique to seeing here is not something unique to seeing here is not something unique to this moment. And people have said this this moment. And people have said this this moment. And people have said this about this. It's very easy to have a about this. It's very easy to have a about this. It's very easy to have a kind of kind of kind of a mindset about history that what's a mindset about history that what's a mindset about history that what's happening here right now is the worst happening here right now is the worst happening here right now is the worst it's ever been. And so for me appealing it's ever been. And so for me appealing it's ever been. And so for me appealing to ancient wisdom and ancient history is to ancient wisdom and ancient history is to ancient wisdom and ancient history is a way of saying we have been here at one a way of saying we have been here at one a way of saying we have been here at one point or another and what can you learn point or another and what can you learn point or another and what can you learn from the past. I think at some level from the past. I think at some level from the past. I think at some level this is back to family systems where we this is back to family systems where we this is back to family systems where we can learn a lot from our histories as a can learn a lot from our histories as a can learn a lot from our histories as a people as a community. But yeah, I think people as a community. But yeah, I think people as a community. But yeah, I think that and I'm trying to appeal that and I'm trying to appeal that and I'm trying to appeal for fundamentally to a a a cristocentric for fundamentally to a a a cristocentric for fundamentally to a a a cristocentric view of the world. What does it mean to view of the world. What does it mean to view of the world. What does it mean to honor Jesus and to center Jesus in this honor Jesus and to center Jesus in this honor Jesus and to center Jesus in this response here? And it doesn't mean I response here? And it doesn't mean I response here? And it doesn't mean I don't take positions. I I took I took I don't take positions. I I took I took I don't take positions. I I took I took I said a number of things with Charlie said a number of things with Charlie said a number of things with Charlie Kirk or George Floyd or whatever what's Kirk or George Floyd or whatever what's Kirk or George Floyd or whatever what's happening in Iran and uh I'm not trying happening in Iran and uh I'm not trying happening in Iran and uh I'm not trying to be wishy-washy here. There's some to be wishy-washy here. There's some to be wishy-washy here. There's some different things I'm going to say I different things I'm going to say I different things I'm going to say I think this needs to be said but Carrie think this needs to be said but Carrie think this needs to be said but Carrie is my hope to remain connected.

is my hope to remain connected. is my hope to remain connected. >> Yeah, that too I want to distinction but >> Yeah, that too I want to distinction but >> Yeah, that too I want to distinction but without disconnect. It's how I say I without disconnect. It's how I say I without disconnect. It's how I say I don't want to come across as, you know, don't want to come across as, you know, don't want to come across as, you know, um, condescending, condemning. Uh, and um, condescending, condemning. Uh, and um, condescending, condemning. Uh, and there are plenty of people who are out there are plenty of people who are out there are plenty of people who are out there. If you don't believe this, you're there. If you don't believe this, you're there. If you don't believe this, you're not even a Christian. I don't want to do not even a Christian. I don't want to do not even a Christian. I don't want to do that. that. that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I do I don't want to not take a >> But I do I don't want to not take a >> But I do I don't want to not take a position, but I also want to recre. position, but I also want to recre. position, but I also want to recre. >> All right. Final question cuz we're down >> All right. Final question cuz we're down >> All right. Final question cuz we're down to our last two minutes here on the live to our last two minutes here on the live to our last two minutes here on the live stream and on the pod. I would love to stream and on the pod. I would love to stream and on the pod. I would love to know, what are we misdiagnosing about know, what are we misdiagnosing about know, what are we misdiagnosing about this cultural moment? What will we look this cultural moment? What will we look this cultural moment? What will we look back on 10 years from now, 15 years ago, back on 10 years from now, 15 years ago, back on 10 years from now, 15 years ago, and like and like and like >> didn't see it or I got it wrong. What do >> didn't see it or I got it wrong. What do >> didn't see it or I got it wrong. What do you think we're misdiagnosing? you think we're misdiagnosing? you think we're misdiagnosing? >> I it Okay, I'm reading a book right now >> I it Okay, I'm reading a book right now >> I it Okay, I'm reading a book right now called The Rise and Fall of the Galactic called The Rise and Fall of the Galactic called The Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire. Empire. Empire. It's a Star Wars book. It's a Star Wars book. It's a Star Wars book. >> I was going to say Battlestar Galactica. >> I was going to say Battlestar Galactica. >> I was going to say Battlestar Galactica. No, Star War. I have my Jedi hat. No, Star War. I have my Jedi hat. No, Star War. I have my Jedi hat. >> Okay, there you go. So, we're we're >> Okay, there you go. So, we're we're >> Okay, there you go. So, we're we're ready for that. It's a guy who's he has ready for that. It's a guy who's he has ready for that. It's a guy who's he has a PhD in World War I and he's writing a PhD in World War I and he's writing a PhD in World War I and he's writing about what he's learned about World War about what he's learned about World War about what he's learned about World War I through the lens of Star Wars. Cool.

I through the lens of Star Wars. Cool. I through the lens of Star Wars. Cool. And his one of his big things is pal, And his one of his big things is pal, And his one of his big things is pal, we're going to get really nerdy here. we're going to get really nerdy here. we're going to get really nerdy here. Palpatine, the emp emperor. A lot of the Palpatine, the emp emperor. A lot of the Palpatine, the emp emperor. A lot of the issues were focused on Palpatine but not issues were focused on Palpatine but not issues were focused on Palpatine but not the larger sister. I think we're in an the larger sister. I think we're in an the larger sister. I think we're in an age right now about in the social age right now about in the social age right now about in the social political moment where it's easy to political moment where it's easy to political moment where it's easy to focus on one person and not the focus on one person and not the focus on one person and not the overarching overarching overarching emotional and social system. And so it's emotional and social system. And so it's emotional and social system. And so it's easy to scapegoat and say the problem is easy to scapegoat and say the problem is easy to scapegoat and say the problem is right there. If you just get rid of that right there. If you just get rid of that right there. If you just get rid of that problem, we're all good. As opposed to problem, we're all good. As opposed to problem, we're all good. As opposed to we all have what to do. Wow. Wow. This we all have what to do. Wow. Wow. This we all have what to do. Wow. Wow. This is so helpful. Rich, thank you. You are is so helpful. Rich, thank you. You are is so helpful. Rich, thank you. You are a gift to me, a gift to the church. So, a gift to me, a gift to the church. So, a gift to me, a gift to the church. So, people are going to want to hang out um people are going to want to hang out um people are going to want to hang out um with you online. You're an easy follow with you online. You're an easy follow with you online. You're an easy follow on Instagram. But if you get a couple of on Instagram. But if you get a couple of on Instagram. But if you get a couple of resources that you would point us to, um resources that you would point us to, um resources that you would point us to, um maybe a book you wrote, Yeah. book maybe a book you wrote, Yeah. book maybe a book you wrote, Yeah. book that's been very influential to you. I that's been very influential to you. I that's been very influential to you. I would love that. All the stuff I talked would love that. All the stuff I talked would love that. All the stuff I talked about family systems, uh, Peter Skey's about family systems, uh, Peter Skey's about family systems, uh, Peter Skey's book, Upthro, highly recommend about the book, Upthro, highly recommend about the book, Upthro, highly recommend about the stuff we talked about today. My second stuff we talked about today. My second stuff we talked about today. My second book, Good and Beautiful and kind has a book, Good and Beautiful and kind has a book, Good and Beautiful and kind has a whole lot of work on the different whole lot of work on the different whole lot of work on the different solution, calm presence, and then the solution, calm presence, and then the solution, calm presence, and then the narrow path, which is about the sermon narrow path, which is about the sermon narrow path, which is about the sermon of anal is how to put it about Jesus.

of anal is how to put it about Jesus. of anal is how to put it about Jesus. Those are probably the two resources Those are probably the two resources Those are probably the two resources that I probably recommend. All right. that I probably recommend. All right. that I probably recommend. All right. One final word to church planters who One final word to church planters who One final word to church planters who are watching right now or people are are watching right now or people are are watching right now or people are going to plant a church. What's one sage going to plant a church. What's one sage going to plant a church. What's one sage piece of advice you want me? piece of advice you want me? piece of advice you want me? >> Uh, it's something I say all the time. >> Uh, it's something I say all the time. >> Uh, it's something I say all the time. The greatest gift you give is your The greatest gift you give is your The greatest gift you give is your ongoing transformation in Jesus Christ. ongoing transformation in Jesus Christ. ongoing transformation in Jesus Christ. >> Well, hey, let me let me say here if I >> Well, hey, let me let me say here if I >> Well, hey, let me let me say here if I can give you a shout out. I don't listen can give you a shout out. I don't listen can give you a shout out. I don't listen to a lot of podcasts, to a lot of podcasts, to a lot of podcasts, >> but when your when it come when the >> but when your when it come when the >> but when your when it come when the notification the Kerry Nuof uh notification the Kerry Nuof uh notification the Kerry Nuof uh notification, which I I still struggle notification, which I I still struggle notification, which I I still struggle to spell your name. to spell your name. to spell your name. >> Uh the last name like is it the I or the >> Uh the last name like is it the I or the >> Uh the last name like is it the I or the E? What is it? E? What is it? E? What is it? >> I before E. Uh yeah, it's I EU W. >> I before E. Uh yeah, it's I EU W. >> I before E. Uh yeah, it's I EU W. >> But your podcast has been a great gift. >> But your podcast has been a great gift. >> But your podcast has been a great gift. >> So, thank you for the good work. >> So, thank you for the good work. >> So, thank you for the good work. >> Well, thank you so much and you're a >> Well, thank you so much and you're a >> Well, thank you so much and you're a great gift. Hey, thank you so much for great gift. Hey, thank you so much for great gift. Hey, thank you so much for tuning in to the exponential live tuning in to the exponential live tuning in to the exponential live stream. Thank you so much for tuning in stream. Thank you so much for tuning in stream. Thank you so much for tuning in to a special episode of the Karen to a special episode of the Karen to a special episode of the Karen Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Really Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Really Newhoff Leadership Podcast. Really appreciate you, Rich. Really appreciate appreciate you, Rich. Really appreciate appreciate you, Rich. Really appreciate all of you. all of you. all of you. >> Thanks, Carrie. >> Thanks, Carrie. >> Thanks, Carrie. >> Hope you found that interesting. I sure >> Hope you found that interesting. I sure >> Hope you found that interesting. I sure did. And some real wisdom here. And the did. And some real wisdom here. And the did. And some real wisdom here. And the bottom line is if you want a healthy bottom line is if you want a healthy bottom line is if you want a healthy culture, it's going to take some work.

culture, it's going to take some work. culture, it's going to take some work. It's going to take you time to work It's going to take you time to work It's going to take you time to work through that with your team, with your through that with your team, with your through that with your team, with your board. If you want more about what Rich board. If you want more about what Rich board. If you want more about what Rich and I talked about, you can get and I talked about, you can get and I talked about, you can get everything in the show notes. And you everything in the show notes. And you everything in the show notes. And you can find the show notes at the Art of can find the show notes at the Art of can find the show notes at the Art of Leadership Academy. Just go to the Leadership Academy. Just go to the Leadership Academy. Just go to the arttoofleershipacademy.com, arttoofleershipacademy.com, arttoofleershipacademy.com, fill out a quick form. It'll get you in fill out a quick form. It'll get you in fill out a quick form. It'll get you in and you'll join over 20,000 leaders who and you'll join over 20,000 leaders who and you'll join over 20,000 leaders who are now part of the academy. You only, are now part of the academy. You only, are now part of the academy. You only, we only opened that up like a year ago. we only opened that up like a year ago. we only opened that up like a year ago. We've had so many of you move from the We've had so many of you move from the We've had so many of you move from the crowd to the core and I'm really crowd to the core and I'm really crowd to the core and I'm really grateful there. We have guess what? Non- grateful there. We have guess what? Non- grateful there. We have guess what? Non- angry conversations about really angry conversations about really angry conversations about really important issues. Would love to have you important issues. Would love to have you important issues. Would love to have you join us. There's a free level, join us. There's a free level, join us. There's a free level, absolutely free, and then also a premium absolutely free, and then also a premium absolutely free, and then also a premium tier where you're going to get all of my tier where you're going to get all of my tier where you're going to get all of my content, direct access to me, and a content, direct access to me, and a content, direct access to me, and a whole lot more. Coming up on the whole lot more. Coming up on the whole lot more. Coming up on the podcast, we have got Dr. Nicole Martin, podcast, we have got Dr. Nicole Martin, podcast, we have got Dr. Nicole Martin, John Ortberg, Matt Chandler, Tyler John Ortberg, Matt Chandler, Tyler John Ortberg, Matt Chandler, Tyler Stton, and Will Gera, and a whole lot Stton, and Will Gera, and a whole lot Stton, and Will Gera, and a whole lot more. So, the best way to make sure you more. So, the best way to make sure you more. So, the best way to make sure you never miss an episode is to hit follow never miss an episode is to hit follow never miss an episode is to hit follow or subscribe wherever you're watching, or subscribe wherever you're watching, or subscribe wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. Thank you so wherever you're listening. Thank you so wherever you're listening. Thank you so much for listening. I love getting your much for listening. I love getting your much for listening. I love getting your feedback. If this was helpful, share the feedback. If this was helpful, share the feedback. If this was helpful, share the link with a friend, leave a rating and link with a friend, leave a rating and link with a friend, leave a rating and review wherever you're watching or review wherever you're watching or review wherever you're watching or listening, or drop a comment. We love listening, or drop a comment. We love listening, or drop a comment. We love hearing from you. Thanks so much for hearing from you. Thanks so much for hearing from you. Thanks so much for listening, and I hope our time together listening, and I hope our time together listening, and I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.