This Pastor Started a Church for Gamers—and It’s Working | Mark Lutz

This is going to be controversial. Um This is going to be controversial. Um the internet has not ruined younger the internet has not ruined younger the internet has not ruined younger generations. generations. generations. They know how to navigate it. Right now, They know how to navigate it. Right now, They know how to navigate it. Right now, the internet and social media is ruining the internet and social media is ruining the internet and social media is ruining past generations. past generations. past generations. People who don't know how to identify if People who don't know how to identify if People who don't know how to identify if something is AI, people who don't know something is AI, people who don't know something is AI, people who don't know how to determine if something is real or how to determine if something is real or how to determine if something is real or fake. There is a reason why scammers do fake. There is a reason why scammers do fake. There is a reason why scammers do not target kids. not target kids. not target kids. But they the people who are scamming But they the people who are scamming But they the people who are scamming predominantly target people who are predominantly target people who are predominantly target people who are elderly. elderly. elderly. >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us and I Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us and I Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us and I hope our time together today helps you hope our time together today helps you hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Welcome thrive in life and leadership. Welcome thrive in life and leadership. Welcome to all of our new listeners and we got a to all of our new listeners and we got a to all of our new listeners and we got a topic that we haven't covered in a long, topic that we haven't covered in a long, topic that we haven't covered in a long, long time. In fact, I don't think we long time. In fact, I don't think we long time. In fact, I don't think we covered it ever. What about a 100% covered it ever. What about a 100% covered it ever. What about a 100% digital church? No physical expression. digital church? No physical expression. digital church? No physical expression. Is that really a church? Is that actual Is that really a church? Is that actual Is that really a church? Is that actual ministry? Are we just pretending that ministry? Are we just pretending that ministry? Are we just pretending that that's church? Well, my guest today is that's church? Well, my guest today is that's church? Well, my guest today is Mark Lutz. [music] And with Mark, he Mark Lutz. [music] And with Mark, he Mark Lutz. [music] And with Mark, he started Lux Church in 2019. We're going started Lux Church in 2019. We're going started Lux Church in 2019. We're going to go through that story and they to go through that story and they to go through that story and they minister to gamers. So, couple of minister to gamers. So, couple of minister to gamers. So, couple of things. I went into this like brand new, things. I went into this like brand new, things. I went into this like brand new, don't know anything about this.

don't know anything about this. don't know anything about this. Man, it was fascinating. Uh do you know Man, it was fascinating. Uh do you know Man, it was fascinating. Uh do you know that almost half the global population that almost half the global population that almost half the global population games and that's heavily weighted toward games and that's heavily weighted toward games and that's heavily weighted toward the west? That means the majority of the west? That means the majority of the west? That means the majority of people in your church probably are people in your church probably are people in your church probably are gamers and some of them don't go to gamers and some of them don't go to gamers and some of them don't go to church at all. Mark is reaching them. church at all. Mark is reaching them. church at all. Mark is reaching them. So, what does that actually look like? So, what does that actually look like? So, what does that actually look like? We're going to look at that and I think We're going to look at that and I think We're going to look at that and I think like me, you're going to learn some new like me, you're going to learn some new like me, you're going to learn some new things. You may not agree with 100% of things. You may not agree with 100% of things. You may not agree with 100% of what he talks about, but I'll tell you what he talks about, but I'll tell you what he talks about, but I'll tell you they're doing real ministry. And uh he's they're doing real ministry. And uh he's they're doing real ministry. And uh he's got some lessons for you on how to got some lessons for you on how to got some lessons for you on how to minister online better. Most of what minister online better. Most of what minister online better. Most of what we're doing is not online ministry. So, we're doing is not online ministry. So, we're doing is not online ministry. So, Mark is the lead pastor and founder at Mark is the lead pastor and founder at Mark is the lead pastor and founder at Lux Digital Church, a fully digital Lux Digital Church, a fully digital Lux Digital Church, a fully digital church expression that exists on church expression that exists on church expression that exists on platforms like Twitch and Discord. Yes, platforms like Twitch and Discord. Yes, platforms like Twitch and Discord. Yes, we will go into definitions and make we will go into definitions and make we will go into definitions and make sure everybody can skate along. Mark's sure everybody can skate along. Mark's sure everybody can skate along. Mark's desire is to help the church connect desire is to help the church connect desire is to help the church connect with the next generations, especially with the next generations, especially with the next generations, especially those who will never first into a those who will never first into a those who will never first into a traditional church building. Hey, just a traditional church building. Hey, just a traditional church building. Hey, just a note, we had a camera malfunction about note, we had a camera malfunction about note, we had a camera malfunction about 3/4 of the way through this 3/4 of the way through this 3/4 of the way through this conversation, so you'll see the video conversation, so you'll see the video conversation, so you'll see the video changes for those of you watching inside changes for those of you watching inside changes for those of you watching inside the Art of Leadership Academy or on the Art of Leadership Academy or on the Art of Leadership Academy or on YouTube.

YouTube. YouTube. Well, I think the interview is worth it Well, I think the interview is worth it Well, I think the interview is worth it anyway. We kept going, anyway. We kept going, anyway. We kept going, but now to my conversation with Mark but now to my conversation with Mark but now to my conversation with Mark Lutz. Mark, welcome. Really glad to have Lutz. Mark, welcome. Really glad to have Lutz. Mark, welcome. Really glad to have you on the podcast. Carey, thank you so you on the podcast. Carey, thank you so you on the podcast. Carey, thank you so much for having me on the show. As much for having me on the show. As much for having me on the show. As someone who has listened to it a lot, it someone who has listened to it a lot, it someone who has listened to it a lot, it is uh it is kind of wild to be recording is uh it is kind of wild to be recording is uh it is kind of wild to be recording with you today. Well, you we we found with you today. Well, you we we found with you today. Well, you we we found out about you and I'm like, I know out about you and I'm like, I know out about you and I'm like, I know absolutely nothing about this, so I have absolutely nothing about this, so I have absolutely nothing about this, so I have to have Mark on cuz you're doing some to have Mark on cuz you're doing some to have Mark on cuz you're doing some really cool stuff. You're doing and I really cool stuff. You're doing and I really cool stuff. You're doing and I want I want I want to just prime leaders want I want I want to just prime leaders want I want I want to just prime leaders to often, you know, to often, you know, to often, you know, digital versus in-person church is digital versus in-person church is digital versus in-person church is divisive, but I think you're going divisive, but I think you're going divisive, but I think you're going places nobody goes or a lot of people places nobody goes or a lot of people places nobody goes or a lot of people don't go and you're reaching people that don't go and you're reaching people that don't go and you're reaching people that a lot of people don't reach, hence I'm a lot of people don't reach, hence I'm a lot of people don't reach, hence I'm very interested. So, even if you're very interested. So, even if you're very interested. So, even if you're like, we do everything in person, I want like, we do everything in person, I want like, we do everything in person, I want you to listen to this episode because you to listen to this episode because you to listen to this episode because Mark is reaching people who attend your Mark is reaching people who attend your Mark is reaching people who attend your church, but who are part of a very church, but who are part of a very church, but who are part of a very different world. So, you have a 100% different world. So, you have a 100% different world. So, you have a 100% digital church for people, I guess, in digital church for people, I guess, in digital church for people, I guess, in the gaming community, right? Can you can the gaming community, right? Can you can the gaming community, right? Can you can you tell us a little bit about what led you tell us a little bit about what led you tell us a little bit about what led you to start that?

you to start that? you to start that? Yeah, um so there was a couple of Yeah, um so there was a couple of Yeah, um so there was a couple of catalysts that I think really were the catalysts that I think really were the catalysts that I think really were the things that ended up leading us in the things that ended up leading us in the things that ended up leading us in the direction that we are. So, I worked in a direction that we are. So, I worked in a direction that we are. So, I worked in a a local church for 11 years. I did six a local church for 11 years. I did six a local church for 11 years. I did six years in physical ministry as their years in physical ministry as their years in physical ministry as their youth pastor, five years as their head youth pastor, five years as their head youth pastor, five years as their head of discipleship. Got to be part of just of discipleship. Got to be part of just of discipleship. Got to be part of just an incredible I'm going to really rural an incredible I'm going to really rural an incredible I'm going to really rural section of Western Pennsylvania. So, section of Western Pennsylvania. So, section of Western Pennsylvania. So, like we're in a small town of 1,200 like we're in a small town of 1,200 like we're in a small town of 1,200 people. We were a church with 1,000, people. We were a church with 1,000, people. We were a church with 1,000, like really having great impact um like really having great impact um like really having great impact um and loved loved loved my time in and loved loved loved my time in and loved loved loved my time in ministry there. At the same time, I was ministry there. At the same time, I was ministry there. At the same time, I was paralleling that with like I've been a paralleling that with like I've been a paralleling that with like I've been a gamer my entire life gamer my entire life gamer my entire life uh and uh and and not just like a video uh and uh and and not just like a video uh and uh and and not just like a video gamer like a gamer in all senses, right? gamer like a gamer in all senses, right? gamer like a gamer in all senses, right? Whether it be Star Wars miniatures games Whether it be Star Wars miniatures games Whether it be Star Wars miniatures games or board games or Dungeons and Dragons or board games or Dungeons and Dragons or board games or Dungeons and Dragons or video games like a nerd through and or video games like a nerd through and or video games like a nerd through and through and repeatedly it's sort of through and repeatedly it's sort of through and repeatedly it's sort of tried to remove that from my life just tried to remove that from my life just tried to remove that from my life just really feeling like you know, honestly really feeling like you know, honestly really feeling like you know, honestly it was like if I'm not if I'm playing it was like if I'm not if I'm playing it was like if I'm not if I'm playing video games I'm not listening to the video games I'm not listening to the video games I'm not listening to the latest Carey Nieuwhof leadership latest Carey Nieuwhof leadership latest Carey Nieuwhof leadership podcast, right? I'm not being as good of podcast, right? I'm not being as good of podcast, right? I'm not being as good of a leader as I could be a good of a a leader as I could be a good of a a leader as I could be a good of a pastor as I could be.

And so in like 2019 I actually randomly And so in like 2019 I actually randomly started a podcast about a video game started a podcast about a video game started a podcast about a video game that doesn't even exist anymore and I that doesn't even exist anymore and I that doesn't even exist anymore and I had a real simple prayer God would you had a real simple prayer God would you had a real simple prayer God would you redeem my love for gaming? Would you use redeem my love for gaming? Would you use redeem my love for gaming? Would you use it either that or it has to go and at it either that or it has to go and at it either that or it has to go and at the time we were sort of in the heyday the time we were sort of in the heyday the time we were sort of in the heyday at the height of Fortnite which is a at the height of Fortnite which is a at the height of Fortnite which is a really popular third-person Battle really popular third-person Battle really popular third-person Battle Royale shooter for a while and at the Royale shooter for a while and at the Royale shooter for a while and at the time there was a guy named Tyler his time there was a guy named Tyler his time there was a guy named Tyler his screen name is Ninja who is streaming he screen name is Ninja who is streaming he screen name is Ninja who is streaming he was the biggest streamer at the time and was the biggest streamer at the time and was the biggest streamer at the time and alongside him he would stream with a guy alongside him he would stream with a guy alongside him he would stream with a guy named Dr. Lupo and a guy named Tim the named Dr. Lupo and a guy named Tim the named Dr. Lupo and a guy named Tim the Tatman and between the three of them Tatman and between the three of them Tatman and between the three of them they were pulling in 150 to 200,000 they were pulling in 150 to 200,000 they were pulling in 150 to 200,000 viewers 40 plus hours a week six days a viewers 40 plus hours a week six days a viewers 40 plus hours a week six days a week and I was recognizing and when week and I was recognizing and when week and I was recognizing and when we're talking about a concurrent 200,000 we're talking about a concurrent 200,000 we're talking about a concurrent 200,000 viewers throughout 40 hours we're viewers throughout 40 hours we're viewers throughout 40 hours we're talking millions of people right? These talking millions of people right? These talking millions of people right? These guys are broadcasting their unfiltered guys are broadcasting their unfiltered guys are broadcasting their unfiltered worldview right? There's no one catching worldview right? There's no one catching worldview right? There's no one catching them there's no one stopping what them there's no one stopping what them there's no one stopping what they're saying everything is live and in they're saying everything is live and in they're saying everything is live and in the second there's no editing nothing the second there's no editing nothing the second there's no editing nothing right? As they're doing this on on a right? As they're doing this on on a right? As they're doing this on on a platform called twitch.tv I recognized platform called twitch.tv I recognized platform called twitch.tv I recognized they likely had more influence over the they likely had more influence over the they likely had more influence over the next generations worldview than any next generations worldview than any next generations worldview than any pastor on the planet. Now I have no way pastor on the planet. Now I have no way pastor on the planet. Now I have no way to quantify that but I was like it to quantify that but I was like it to quantify that but I was like it certainly seems like they do. It certainly seems like they do. It certainly seems like they do. It certainly seems you're probably right certainly seems you're probably right certainly seems you're probably right about that. Yeah and so I'm like man the about that. Yeah and so I'm like man the about that. Yeah and so I'm like man the church needs to have a voice here.

church needs to have a voice here. church needs to have a voice here. At the same time the biggest category on At the same time the biggest category on At the same time the biggest category on on at any given time was a category on at any given time was a category on at any given time was a category called just chatting. So, twitch.tv is a called just chatting. So, twitch.tv is a called just chatting. So, twitch.tv is a live streaming platform. It was live streaming platform. It was live streaming platform. It was originally justin.tv. It was a guy live originally justin.tv. It was a guy live originally justin.tv. It was a guy live streaming his life. Um, turned it into streaming his life. Um, turned it into streaming his life. Um, turned it into Twitch, got bought by Amazon, and it Twitch, got bought by Amazon, and it Twitch, got bought by Amazon, and it became the biggest live streaming became the biggest live streaming became the biggest live streaming platform for people playing video games. platform for people playing video games. platform for people playing video games. But, the biggest category, 24/7, But, the biggest category, 24/7, But, the biggest category, 24/7, 300,000 to 500,000 people watching this 300,000 to 500,000 people watching this 300,000 to 500,000 people watching this category all the time back in 2020, category all the time back in 2020, category all the time back in 2020, 2019, was just chatting. So, it was 2019, was just chatting. So, it was 2019, was just chatting. So, it was hundreds of thousands of people coming hundreds of thousands of people coming hundreds of thousands of people coming to a platform to watch people play video to a platform to watch people play video to a platform to watch people play video games who were watching people not play games who were watching people not play games who were watching people not play video games. video games. video games. And I was like, there's people are And I was like, there's people are And I was like, there's people are searching for something, searching for something, searching for something, and these are my people. And so, at the and these are my people. And so, at the and these are my people. And so, at the same time I started this podcast, I same time I started this podcast, I same time I started this podcast, I started just doing simple reworded started just doing simple reworded started just doing simple reworded proverbs at the end of this video game proverbs at the end of this video game proverbs at the end of this video game secular podcast for all intents and secular podcast for all intents and secular podcast for all intents and purposes, and then I would ask my guests purposes, and then I would ask my guests purposes, and then I would ask my guests at the end, is there a way that I could at the end, is there a way that I could at the end, is there a way that I could pray for you? We're done recording. Can pray for you? We're done recording. Can pray for you? We're done recording. Can I pray for you? I'm a pastor. And God I pray for you? I'm a pastor. And God I pray for you? I'm a pastor. And God started answering those prayers like started answering those prayers like started answering those prayers like supernaturally, like people getting supernaturally, like people getting supernaturally, like people getting pregnant in New Zealand who couldn't get pregnant in New Zealand who couldn't get pregnant in New Zealand who couldn't get pregnant. And I'm watching the Holy pregnant. And I'm watching the Holy pregnant. And I'm watching the Holy Spirit move and cause people to weep who Spirit move and cause people to weep who Spirit move and cause people to weep who I've never met before who are hundreds I've never met before who are hundreds I've never met before who are hundreds of miles away from me. And, uh, at the of miles away from me. And, uh, at the of miles away from me. And, uh, at the same time I was reading Henry Blackaby's same time I was reading Henry Blackaby's same time I was reading Henry Blackaby's book, this is the third catalyst, book, this is the third catalyst, book, this is the third catalyst, Experiencing God. And in the course of a Experiencing God. And in the course of a Experiencing God. And in the course of a paraphrase, it says, don't just do paraphrase, it says, don't just do paraphrase, it says, don't just do things and ask God to bless them, but things and ask God to bless them, but things and ask God to bless them, but look and see what God is up to and go look and see what God is up to and go look and see what God is up to and go partner with him in it. And I couldn't partner with him in it. And I couldn't partner with him in it. And I couldn't deny the fact that God was answering deny the fact that God was answering deny the fact that God was answering more of my prayers in this online more of my prayers in this online more of my prayers in this online community around a podcast that had a community around a podcast that had a community around a podcast that had a very small listener base than was

very small listener base than was very small listener base than was happening in my church that I had been happening in my church that I had been happening in my church that I had been working for for almost a decade. And, working for for almost a decade. And, working for for almost a decade. And, uh, then I just we opened up a Discord uh, then I just we opened up a Discord uh, then I just we opened up a Discord server, and I started to tell people at server, and I started to tell people at server, and I started to tell people at the end of the episode, if you're out the end of the episode, if you're out the end of the episode, if you're out there and you're listening, and you need there and you're listening, and you need there and you're listening, and you need someone to talk to, I'm willing to someone to talk to, I'm willing to someone to talk to, I'm willing to listen. That was all that it was. And listen. That was all that it was. And listen. That was all that it was. And young men from all across the world young men from all across the world young men from all across the world started reaching out to me who just started reaching out to me who just started reaching out to me who just needed to talk. And all that we shared needed to talk. And all that we shared needed to talk. And all that we shared in common was a silly digital card game. in common was a silly digital card game. in common was a silly digital card game. Um, and, uh, and so I started, you know, Um, and, uh, and so I started, you know, Um, and, uh, and so I started, you know, counseling a kid in the Czech Republic. counseling a kid in the Czech Republic. counseling a kid in the Czech Republic. I met with him every week. He's 17, just I met with him every week. He's 17, just I met with him every week. He's 17, just wants to ask a girl out. Didn't have a wants to ask a girl out. Didn't have a wants to ask a girl out. Didn't have a dad in his life to help him with that. dad in his life to help him with that. dad in his life to help him with that. So, I just started helping him how to So, I just started helping him how to So, I just started helping him how to ask this girl out. I met with a guy ask this girl out. I met with a guy ask this girl out. I met with a guy named Levi whose girlfriend was pregnant named Levi whose girlfriend was pregnant named Levi whose girlfriend was pregnant in Missouri. Started walking through in Missouri. Started walking through in Missouri. Started walking through with him what it meant to become a dad. with him what it meant to become a dad. with him what it meant to become a dad. I had just become a dad I had just become a dad I had just become a dad um the year before. I started meeting um the year before. I started meeting um the year before. I started meeting with this other guy in Iowa who was, you with this other guy in Iowa who was, you with this other guy in Iowa who was, you know, 23 years old going through a know, 23 years old going through a know, 23 years old going through a divorce and just had no one to talk to. divorce and just had no one to talk to. divorce and just had no one to talk to. Felt completely isolated from his Felt completely isolated from his Felt completely isolated from his church. And I was just meeting with him. church. And I was just meeting with him. church. And I was just meeting with him. And so, I was actually discipling people And so, I was actually discipling people And so, I was actually discipling people online more consistently online more consistently online more consistently from this video game community than I from this video game community than I from this video game community than I was in my in-person contacts at my was in my in-person contacts at my was in my in-person contacts at my church where I was mostly just sort of church where I was mostly just sort of church where I was mostly just sort of like running teams and managing systems.

like running teams and managing systems. like running teams and managing systems. And uh and man, that was really the And uh and man, that was really the And uh and man, that was really the catalyst that that began to reshape my catalyst that that began to reshape my catalyst that that began to reshape my heart and lead us towards planting Lux. heart and lead us towards planting Lux. heart and lead us towards planting Lux. So, for people who uh don't know what So, for people who uh don't know what So, for people who uh don't know what Twitch or Discord is or don't use it. I Twitch or Discord is or don't use it. I Twitch or Discord is or don't use it. I believe I have a Discord account. I'm believe I have a Discord account. I'm believe I have a Discord account. I'm pretty sure. Sure. I go in it once every pretty sure. Sure. I go in it once every pretty sure. Sure. I go in it once every 2 years whether I need to or not. Can't 2 years whether I need to or not. Can't 2 years whether I need to or not. Can't figure it out and then shut it down for figure it out and then shut it down for figure it out and then shut it down for another couple of years. Yeah, that's a another couple of years. Yeah, that's a another couple of years. Yeah, that's a lot of people's experience with it. lot of people's experience with it. lot of people's experience with it. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very different Yeah. Yeah, it's a very different Yeah. Yeah, it's a very different experience. I know a lot of like AI experience. I know a lot of like AI experience. I know a lot of like AI people use it and software developers people use it and software developers people use it and software developers use it. But so do gamers. So, for people use it. But so do gamers. So, for people use it. But so do gamers. So, for people who might not have um experience in who might not have um experience in who might not have um experience in Twitch or Discord, can you just give us Twitch or Discord, can you just give us Twitch or Discord, can you just give us a real quick like what these forums do? a real quick like what these forums do? a real quick like what these forums do? Yeah, so I mean Twitch is is just a live Yeah, so I mean Twitch is is just a live Yeah, so I mean Twitch is is just a live streaming platform. It's uh like YouTube streaming platform. It's uh like YouTube streaming platform. It's uh like YouTube has live streaming. Facebook used to has live streaming. Facebook used to has live streaming. Facebook used to have live streaming. They were all have live streaming. They were all have live streaming. They were all mimicking what Twitch was doing. Um and mimicking what Twitch was doing. Um and mimicking what Twitch was doing. Um and they've had like the lion's share of the they've had like the lion's share of the they've had like the lion's share of the internet worth of live streaming. 100 internet worth of live streaming. 100 internet worth of live streaming. 100 million unique viewers a month prior to million unique viewers a month prior to million unique viewers a month prior to uh uh uh prior to the pandemic. And so, like prior to the pandemic. And so, like prior to the pandemic. And so, like >> young, too, right? Like Twitch was a lot >> young, too, right? Like Twitch was a lot >> young, too, right? Like Twitch was a lot of teenagers.

of teenagers. of teenagers. Um you would you would be surprised. No, Um you would you would be surprised. No, Um you would you would be surprised. No, not really. Um the average the average not really. Um the average the average not really. Um the average the average hardcore gamer is my age at 37. Uh most hardcore gamer is my age at 37. Uh most hardcore gamer is my age at 37. Uh most of them are millennials. Um and so, and of them are millennials. Um and so, and of them are millennials. Um and so, and and it really does range. I mean, you and it really does range. I mean, you and it really does range. I mean, you see anything from uh people who are live see anything from uh people who are live see anything from uh people who are live online broadcasting who are in their online broadcasting who are in their online broadcasting who are in their 60s, 70s, and 80s. Uh in fact, recently 60s, 70s, and 80s. Uh in fact, recently 60s, 70s, and 80s. Uh in fact, recently like a legendary streamer, I think it like a legendary streamer, I think it like a legendary streamer, I think it was Grandma Grandma Games, uh who was Grandma Grandma Games, uh who was Grandma Grandma Games, uh who recently passed away. She was like 80. recently passed away. She was like 80. recently passed away. She was like 80. She played like Call of Duty, um which She played like Call of Duty, um which She played like Call of Duty, um which was just like people would just show up was just like people would just show up was just like people would just show up to watch her like click heads in Call of to watch her like click heads in Call of to watch her like click heads in Call of Duty, which was just wild. Um Duty, which was just wild. Um Duty, which was just wild. Um and so, you know, it really ranges. The and so, you know, it really ranges. The and so, you know, it really ranges. The the gaming community is insanely diverse the gaming community is insanely diverse the gaming community is insanely diverse in in way more diverse than I think what in in way more diverse than I think what in in way more diverse than I think what the church often thinks. I think we sort the church often thinks. I think we sort the church often thinks. I think we sort of categorize gaming as is it being of categorize gaming as is it being of categorize gaming as is it being kids, but it it honestly it really kids, but it it honestly it really kids, but it it honestly it really isn't. So, when you're live streaming on isn't. So, when you're live streaming on isn't. So, when you're live streaming on Twitch, I've never seen this. And again, Twitch, I've never seen this. And again, Twitch, I've never seen this. And again, I'm happy to be the rookie here and ask I'm happy to be the rookie here and ask I'm happy to be the rookie here and ask the questions on behalf of all the the questions on behalf of all the the questions on behalf of all the people who people who people who aren't familiar with this world cuz I'm aren't familiar with this world cuz I'm aren't familiar with this world cuz I'm not. not. not. Is that like you got a webcam that's Is that like you got a webcam that's Is that like you got a webcam that's streaming it or you're just streaming streaming it or you're just streaming streaming it or you're just streaming your screen of the game you're playing?

your screen of the game you're playing? your screen of the game you're playing? Yeah, so it would just depend on the Yeah, so it would just depend on the Yeah, so it would just depend on the streamer um and like what they're doing, streamer um and like what they're doing, streamer um and like what they're doing, but most of the time you're it and it's but most of the time you're it and it's but most of the time you're it and it's it's changed. It's evolved over time. I it's changed. It's evolved over time. I it's changed. It's evolved over time. I would say the most common setups that would say the most common setups that would say the most common setups that you're seeing now is somebody who just you're seeing now is somebody who just you're seeing now is somebody who just has a webcam that's on the screen, so has a webcam that's on the screen, so has a webcam that's on the screen, so you're watching them and then you're you're watching them and then you're you're watching them and then you're also they're also capturing all of their also they're also capturing all of their also they're also capturing all of their video game play. And so, they're you're video game play. And so, they're you're video game play. And so, they're you're capturing their screen as well. capturing their screen as well. capturing their screen as well. >> type thing? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, >> type thing? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, >> type thing? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, they'll be kind of in the bottom corner. they'll be kind of in the bottom corner. they'll be kind of in the bottom corner. Some streamers don't use a webcam. Some streamers don't use a webcam. Some streamers don't use a webcam. There's this whole other thing called There's this whole other thing called There's this whole other thing called Vtubers, which uses kind of like an Vtubers, which uses kind of like an Vtubers, which uses kind of like an animated character that's stitched to animated character that's stitched to animated character that's stitched to their camera, so the way they move, the their camera, so the way they move, the their camera, so the way they move, the character moves. Um and so, they there's character moves. Um and so, they there's character moves. Um and so, they there's a huge category just for Vtubers now. Um a huge category just for Vtubers now. Um a huge category just for Vtubers now. Um and it's it's quite massive. And so, the and it's it's quite massive. And so, the and it's it's quite massive. And so, the it it ranges and there's variety to it, it it ranges and there's variety to it, it it ranges and there's variety to it, but at its core, it's people sitting on but at its core, it's people sitting on but at its core, it's people sitting on a camera with a microphone talking to a camera with a microphone talking to a camera with a microphone talking to people who are in a text chat, and people who are in a text chat, and people who are in a text chat, and they're reading the text chat while it's they're reading the text chat while it's they're reading the text chat while it's happening and interacting with them happening and interacting with them happening and interacting with them live. Now, Discord is a platform that's live. Now, Discord is a platform that's live. Now, Discord is a platform that's more again, I think most people in the more again, I think most people in the more again, I think most people in the church would have at least dabbled church would have at least dabbled church would have at least dabbled downloaded at one point, Slack. It's a downloaded at one point, Slack. It's a downloaded at one point, Slack. It's a lot It's very similar to Slack with the lot It's very similar to Slack with the lot It's very similar to Slack with the exception of it has a lower floor and a exception of it has a lower floor and a exception of it has a lower floor and a much higher ceiling. So, there's way, much higher ceiling. So, there's way, much higher ceiling. So, there's way, way, way more that you can do with it.

way, way more that you can do with it. way, way more that you can do with it. Um, but Um, but Um, but it also is a lot more complex. And so, it also is a lot more complex. And so, it also is a lot more complex. And so, it's uh it's sort of like the the free it's uh it's sort of like the the free it's uh it's sort of like the the free or open market version of what Slack or open market version of what Slack or open market version of what Slack might be. might be. might be. Oh, okay, great. So, you decide to set Oh, okay, great. So, you decide to set Oh, okay, great. So, you decide to set up a church. up a church. up a church. How do you even go about that? Like a How do you even go about that? Like a How do you even go about that? Like a 100% digital church? 100% digital church? 100% digital church? Yeah. Well, Yeah. Well, Yeah. Well, here's the thing, like I I really was here's the thing, like I I really was here's the thing, like I I really was struc- one of my main goals in life is struc- one of my main goals in life is struc- one of my main goals in life is to meet Jesus one day and not have done to meet Jesus one day and not have done to meet Jesus one day and not have done anything heretical. Um, that's like just anything heretical. Um, that's like just anything heretical. Um, that's like just a a big I don't know I don't know. a a big I don't know I don't know. a a big I don't know I don't know. Hopefully, that's most pastor's goal in Hopefully, that's most pastor's goal in Hopefully, that's most pastor's goal in life, right? And so, when when I life, right? And so, when when I life, right? And so, when when I initially we initially kind of caught initially we initially kind of caught initially we initially kind of caught the vision for a fully online church, I the vision for a fully online church, I the vision for a fully online church, I I thought it was heretical. Um, in fact, I thought it was heretical. Um, in fact, I thought it was heretical. Um, in fact, if you would go back and watch sermons if you would go back and watch sermons if you would go back and watch sermons from the church I used to work for, um, from the church I used to work for, um, from the church I used to work for, um, you can hear me saying God's plan A is you can hear me saying God's plan A is you can hear me saying God's plan A is the local church and he doesn't make a the local church and he doesn't make a the local church and he doesn't make a plan B. Uh, I said that religiously. I plan B. Uh, I said that religiously. I plan B. Uh, I said that religiously. I was the small groups guy far more than was the small groups guy far more than was the small groups guy far more than micro church dude. I played video games micro church dude. I played video games micro church dude. I played video games to escape people, not to connect with to escape people, not to connect with to escape people, not to connect with them. I still don't have a social media them. I still don't have a social media them. I still don't have a social media presence. Like, our church does, but it presence. Like, our church does, but it presence. Like, our church does, but it would be hard to find me on social media would be hard to find me on social media would be hard to find me on social media because I just don't like it. Um, but because I just don't like it. Um, but because I just don't like it. Um, but what I did end up loving was these what I did end up loving was these what I did end up loving was these really impactful relationships that I really impactful relationships that I really impactful relationships that I was developing with people that I was was developing with people that I was was developing with people that I was seeing real practical life change seeing real practical life change seeing real practical life change happening.

happening. happening. Like, and I knew their stories. Like, I Like, and I knew their stories. Like, I Like, and I knew their stories. Like, I took the time to actually get to know took the time to actually get to know took the time to actually get to know people and I began developing people and I began developing people and I began developing relationships. relationships. relationships. And I began to realize that if I can And I began to realize that if I can And I began to realize that if I can build genuine relationships digitally, build genuine relationships digitally, build genuine relationships digitally, then I can make disciples digitally. If then I can make disciples digitally. If then I can make disciples digitally. If I can make disciples digitally, we can I can make disciples digitally, we can I can make disciples digitally, we can certainly be the church. Now, at the certainly be the church. Now, at the certainly be the church. Now, at the time, I was really going through sort of time, I was really going through sort of time, I was really going through sort of like a whole what actually is a church, like a whole what actually is a church, like a whole what actually is a church, right? We were coming out of the right? We were coming out of the right? We were coming out of the pandemic. Uh, this was 2019 going into pandemic. Uh, this was 2019 going into pandemic. Uh, this was 2019 going into 2020. So, we're coming out of the 2020. So, we're coming out of the 2020. So, we're coming out of the pandemic, we're heading into it pandemic, we're heading into it pandemic, we're heading into it initially. initially. initially. And I was really deconstructing my idea And I was really deconstructing my idea And I was really deconstructing my idea of what actually is a church. What does of what actually is a church. What does of what actually is a church. What does the Bible have to say? And I remember the Bible have to say? And I remember the Bible have to say? And I remember this the It was between Christmas and this the It was between Christmas and this the It was between Christmas and New Year's 2019 going into 2020. God New Year's 2019 going into 2020. God New Year's 2019 going into 2020. God didn't seem to want to talk to me about didn't seem to want to talk to me about didn't seem to want to talk to me about anything except this digital church, anything except this digital church, anything except this digital church, which I considered to be heretical and which I considered to be heretical and which I considered to be heretical and refused to talk about. And then I refused to talk about. And then I refused to talk about. And then I remember in between there I began taking remember in between there I began taking remember in between there I began taking long walks in my town and I just said to long walks in my town and I just said to long walks in my town and I just said to God, "Okay. God, "Okay. God, "Okay. Fine. You want to talk about it, let's Fine. You want to talk about it, let's Fine. You want to talk about it, let's talk about it. Let's Let's dream. I'll talk about it. Let's Let's dream. I'll talk about it. Let's Let's dream. I'll entertain it for a week." entertain it for a week." entertain it for a week." And through that he began walking me And through that he began walking me And through that he began walking me through scriptures and I began to through scriptures and I began to through scriptures and I began to realize that my understanding of what a realize that my understanding of what a realize that my understanding of what a church was had a lot more to do with church was had a lot more to do with church was had a lot more to do with what I was comfortable with than what what I was comfortable with than what what I was comfortable with than what was actually biblical. And as it turns was actually biblical. And as it turns was actually biblical. And as it turns out, the Bible isn't actually very out, the Bible isn't actually very out, the Bible isn't actually very prescriptive in terms of the actions and prescriptive in terms of the actions and prescriptive in terms of the actions and the form of the church, but it's the form of the church, but it's the form of the church, but it's terribly It's very very prescriptive terribly It's very very prescriptive terribly It's very very prescriptive about its substance, right? The about its substance, right? The about its substance, right? The substance of the church matters a great substance of the church matters a great substance of the church matters a great deal.

deal. deal. And like every good church planner, I And like every good church planner, I And like every good church planner, I ended up just deeply fascinated with ended up just deeply fascinated with ended up just deeply fascinated with Acts 42 Acts 2:42-47. Acts 42 Acts 2:42-47. Acts 42 Acts 2:42-47. And realized In there it says that the And realized In there it says that the And realized In there it says that the church devoted itself. church devoted itself. church devoted itself. And it It has six devotions. And the And it It has six devotions. And the And it It has six devotions. And the word in Greek for devoted there is the word in Greek for devoted there is the word in Greek for devoted there is the Greek word to steadfastly continue in. Greek word to steadfastly continue in. Greek word to steadfastly continue in. So, they steadfastly continue in the So, they steadfastly continue in the So, they steadfastly continue in the apostles' teaching, prayer, sacraments, apostles' teaching, prayer, sacraments, apostles' teaching, prayer, sacraments, community, worship, and sacrificial community, worship, and sacrificial community, worship, and sacrificial generosity. generosity. generosity. And I began to see if the church if a And I began to see if the church if a And I began to see if the church if a group of people can do these things, group of people can do these things, group of people can do these things, doesn't matter where they are, they doesn't matter where they are, they doesn't matter where they are, they become a church. become a church. become a church. And if you're not doing these six And if you're not doing these six And if you're not doing these six things, it doesn't matter what steeple's things, it doesn't matter what steeple's things, it doesn't matter what steeple's above your building, you're not being above your building, you're not being above your building, you're not being the church. the church. the church. Because what makes a church a church is Because what makes a church a church is Because what makes a church a church is not that we gather in a building. What not that we gather in a building. What not that we gather in a building. What makes a church a church is what do we makes a church a church is what do we makes a church a church is what do we collectively devote ourselves to, which collectively devote ourselves to, which collectively devote ourselves to, which is why a coffee shop isn't a church and is why a coffee shop isn't a church and is why a coffee shop isn't a church and a gym is not a church. It is a grouping a gym is not a church. It is a grouping a gym is not a church. It is a grouping of people who collectively follow Jesus of people who collectively follow Jesus of people who collectively follow Jesus and steadfastly continue in these what I and steadfastly continue in these what I and steadfastly continue in these what I believe to be six key devotions of what believe to be six key devotions of what believe to be six key devotions of what makes a church a church. This episode is makes a church a church. This episode is makes a church a church. This episode is brought to you by Victory Beyond the brought to you by Victory Beyond the brought to you by Victory Beyond the Cup. So, church leaders, this summer, as Cup. So, church leaders, this summer, as Cup. So, church leaders, this summer, as you may know, the World Cup kicks off, you may know, the World Cup kicks off, you may know, the World Cup kicks off, and that's when more than 5 billion and that's when more than 5 billion and that's when more than 5 billion people are paying attention to the same people are paying attention to the same people are paying attention to the same moment. When that happens, it's not just moment. When that happens, it's not just moment. When that happens, it's not just a sports event, it's a leadership a sports event, it's a leadership a sports event, it's a leadership opportunity. And Heather Reddy from Cru opportunity. And Heather Reddy from Cru opportunity. And Heather Reddy from Cru is here. So, Heather, what's Victory is here. So, Heather, what's Victory is here. So, Heather, what's Victory Beyond the Cup? Yeah, well, Victory Beyond the Cup? Yeah, well, Victory Beyond the Cup? Yeah, well, Victory Beyond the Cup is really about helping Beyond the Cup is really about helping Beyond the Cup is really about helping churches and believers recognize that churches and believers recognize that churches and believers recognize that this is a rare cultural moment that can this is a rare cultural moment that can this is a rare cultural moment that can be used for kingdom impact. Your

be used for kingdom impact. Your be used for kingdom impact. Your neighbors, your co-workers, your neighbors, your co-workers, your neighbors, your co-workers, your communities will already be gathered and communities will already be gathered and communities will already be gathered and watching. And so, Victory Beyond the Cup watching. And so, Victory Beyond the Cup watching. And so, Victory Beyond the Cup helps pastors and believers steward that helps pastors and believers steward that helps pastors and believers steward that moment well. Not by creating or moment well. Not by creating or moment well. Not by creating or launching new programs, but by using launching new programs, but by using launching new programs, but by using simple gatherings like watch parties to simple gatherings like watch parties to simple gatherings like watch parties to build relationships and open doors for build relationships and open doors for build relationships and open doors for gospel conversations. So, I mean, most gospel conversations. So, I mean, most gospel conversations. So, I mean, most church leaders kind of get this when it church leaders kind of get this when it church leaders kind of get this when it comes to the Super Bowl. We think that's comes to the Super Bowl. We think that's comes to the Super Bowl. We think that's a big event, but this is like a big event, but this is like a big event, but this is like exponentially bigger. So, how can church exponentially bigger. So, how can church exponentially bigger. So, how can church leaders lean into the World Cup? Yeah, leaders lean into the World Cup? Yeah, leaders lean into the World Cup? Yeah, so we've created two free kits. They're so we've created two free kits. They're so we've created two free kits. They're free, and there's a pastor's kit that free, and there's a pastor's kit that free, and there's a pastor's kit that helps you cast vision and equip your helps you cast vision and equip your helps you cast vision and equip your church. And then there's a host kit that church. And then there's a host kit that church. And then there's a host kit that can be used to open your home, gather can be used to open your home, gather can be used to open your home, gather friends, and create space for meaningful friends, and create space for meaningful friends, and create space for meaningful conversations. It's really about making conversations. It's really about making conversations. It's really about making it simple for people to live out their it simple for people to live out their it simple for people to live out their faith in this incredible moment where faith in this incredible moment where faith in this incredible moment where people are already gathering. Well, people are already gathering. Well, people are already gathering. Well, that's good news for churches. And if that's good news for churches. And if that's good news for churches. And if you're ready to help your people step you're ready to help your people step you're ready to help your people step into really what truly is a global into really what truly is a global into really what truly is a global moment with intention and purpose, moment with intention and purpose, moment with intention and purpose, here's what you can do. Visit here's what you can do. Visit here's what you can do. Visit victorybeyondthecup.com victorybeyondthecup.com victorybeyondthecup.com and download the free kits. That is and download the free kits. That is and download the free kits. That is victorybeyondthecup.com.

victorybeyondthecup.com. victorybeyondthecup.com. So, what does church actually look like? So, what does church actually look like? So, what does church actually look like? Is it just conversations with people in Is it just conversations with people in Is it just conversations with people in Czechoslovakia and Houston? Is it Czechoslovakia and Houston? Is it Czechoslovakia and Houston? Is it um do you have services? Like what what um do you have services? Like what what um do you have services? Like what what goes on? Because I think people in their goes on? Because I think people in their goes on? Because I think people in their minds, minds, minds, you know, the metaverse had a moment a you know, the metaverse had a moment a you know, the metaverse had a moment a few years ago. Sure. Second Life, you few years ago. Sure. Second Life, you few years ago. Sure. Second Life, you can think, okay, these holographic can think, okay, these holographic can think, okay, these holographic churches in the metaverse where people churches in the metaverse where people churches in the metaverse where people could meet. We've talked about that on could meet. We've talked about that on could meet. We've talked about that on the podcast before. the podcast before. the podcast before. Other [snorts] people imagine a live Other [snorts] people imagine a live Other [snorts] people imagine a live streamed experience like a lot of streamed experience like a lot of streamed experience like a lot of listeners have church online and listeners have church online and listeners have church online and expression. You've got to be something expression. You've got to be something expression. You've got to be something different. What what do you have? different. What what do you have? different. What what do you have? Yeah, so we're we're actually more akin Yeah, so we're we're actually more akin Yeah, so we're we're actually more akin to the live stream experience than we to the live stream experience than we to the live stream experience than we are the metaverse experience, but but are the metaverse experience, but but are the metaverse experience, but but vastly different as well. And so we have vastly different as well. And so we have vastly different as well. And so we have service, we just don't do it on Sunday service, we just don't do it on Sunday service, we just don't do it on Sunday mornings. We don't have a Sunday morning mornings. We don't have a Sunday morning mornings. We don't have a Sunday morning gathering. We have we actually now have gathering. We have we actually now have gathering. We have we actually now have a once a month Sunday morning gathering a once a month Sunday morning gathering a once a month Sunday morning gathering that's very different than what we've that's very different than what we've that's very different than what we've ever done before, but we have a ever done before, but we have a ever done before, but we have a Wednesday night gathering every week and Wednesday night gathering every week and Wednesday night gathering every week and we had it ever since we started in 2021. we had it ever since we started in 2021. we had it ever since we started in 2021. Why Wednesday? Why Wednesday? Why Wednesday? We picked Wednesday quite honestly We picked Wednesday quite honestly We picked Wednesday quite honestly because of the people that we're trying because of the people that we're trying because of the people that we're trying to reach. And so we're trying to reach to reach. And so we're trying to reach to reach. And so we're trying to reach people who are frequenters to Twitch, people who are frequenters to Twitch, people who are frequenters to Twitch, our one like the person to use my our one like the person to use my our one like the person to use my intentional churches language.

intentional churches language. intentional churches language. The person that we're trying to reach is The person that we're trying to reach is The person that we're trying to reach is someone who's we call him Shadow Slayer someone who's we call him Shadow Slayer someone who's we call him Shadow Slayer 329. 329 says any of them numbers. 329. 329 says any of them numbers. 329. 329 says any of them numbers. Shadow Slayer is working a dead end job. Shadow Slayer is working a dead end job. Shadow Slayer is working a dead end job. He's not particularly passionate or He's not particularly passionate or He's not particularly passionate or interested in anything. He plays video interested in anything. He plays video interested in anything. He plays video games, hangs out hangs out in Discord games, hangs out hangs out in Discord games, hangs out hangs out in Discord every night until he's too tired to every night until he's too tired to every night until he's too tired to think because he doesn't want to ponder think because he doesn't want to ponder think because he doesn't want to ponder his life whenever he lays down his head his life whenever he lays down his head his life whenever he lays down his head on his pillow. And so this is the person on his pillow. And so this is the person on his pillow. And so this is the person that we're trying to reach. And so we've that we're trying to reach. And so we've that we're trying to reach. And so we've really developed what his motivations really developed what his motivations really developed what his motivations and where he is. And so for him and where he is. And so for him and where he is. And so for him midweek he's hanging out on Twitch. midweek he's hanging out on Twitch. midweek he's hanging out on Twitch. Sunday morning he's asleep because Sunday morning he's asleep because Sunday morning he's asleep because either he had to work on Sunday morning either he had to work on Sunday morning either he had to work on Sunday morning or he was up late Saturday night gaming or he was up late Saturday night gaming or he was up late Saturday night gaming with his buddies and he's not waking up with his buddies and he's not waking up with his buddies and he's not waking up early on Sunday morning to go to church. early on Sunday morning to go to church. early on Sunday morning to go to church. And so for us So he's mental noon on And so for us So he's mental noon on And so for us So he's mental noon on Sundays. Yeah, or or yeah, or just if Sundays. Yeah, or or yeah, or just if Sundays. Yeah, or or yeah, or just if he's awake he's like he's awake he's like he's awake he's like not cognitive, right? He's just like he not cognitive, right? He's just like he not cognitive, right? He's just like he was up late like a lot of people were up was up late like a lot of people were up was up late like a lot of people were up late on Saturday night. And quite late on Saturday night. And quite late on Saturday night. And quite honestly a lot of people who aren't honestly a lot of people who aren't honestly a lot of people who aren't gamers are up late on Saturday night and gamers are up late on Saturday night and gamers are up late on Saturday night and that's one of the reasons they don't that's one of the reasons they don't that's one of the reasons they don't show up to church on Sunday morning. show up to church on Sunday morning. show up to church on Sunday morning. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> They get in their pajamas and sit down >> They get in their pajamas and sit down >> They get in their pajamas and sit down and watch you on TV, right? and watch you on TV, right? and watch you on TV, right? And so we decided Wednesday night was And so we decided Wednesday night was And so we decided Wednesday night was kind of our midweek. That was our kind of our midweek. That was our kind of our midweek. That was our opportunity. A lot of churches have like opportunity. A lot of churches have like opportunity. A lot of churches have like every Sunday they have a service then every Sunday they have a service then every Sunday they have a service then they have a midweek once a month. We they have a midweek once a month. We they have a midweek once a month. We have the opposite. We have a Sunday once have the opposite. We have a Sunday once have the opposite. We have a Sunday once a month and we have a Wednesday night a month and we have a Wednesday night a month and we have a Wednesday night every week. So we go live at about 8:20 every week. So we go live at about 8:20 every week. So we go live at about 8:20 on Twitch. Now one of the main on Twitch. Now one of the main on Twitch. Now one of the main differences is we have no physical differences is we have no physical differences is we have no physical audience, right? So we're entirely audience, right? So we're entirely audience, right? So we're entirely digital. So our people, digital. So our people, digital. So our people, unapologetically, we're there for the unapologetically, we're there for the unapologetically, we're there for the people who are online.

people who are online. people who are online. And you cannot be part of our live And you cannot be part of our live And you cannot be part of our live stream at any point if you can't read stream at any point if you can't read stream at any point if you can't read chat. And so we are live interacting, chat. And so we are live interacting, chat. And so we are live interacting, even when I'm teaching, I'm live even when I'm teaching, I'm live even when I'm teaching, I'm live interacting with chat. But our service interacting with chat. But our service interacting with chat. But our service looks very similar to what you would looks very similar to what you would looks very similar to what you would experience in any physical church. We experience in any physical church. We experience in any physical church. We have an opening where my wife and I are have an opening where my wife and I are have an opening where my wife and I are sitting on a couch welcoming people by sitting on a couch welcoming people by sitting on a couch welcoming people by name, which what you would have is name, which what you would have is name, which what you would have is people come into your narthex or your people come into your narthex or your people come into your narthex or your fellowship hall on their way to your fellowship hall on their way to your fellowship hall on their way to your sanctuary. sanctuary. sanctuary. We have a moment of announcements, which We have a moment of announcements, which We have a moment of announcements, which you would have at your church. We have you would have at your church. We have you would have at your church. We have live worship where we have somebody on a live worship where we have somebody on a live worship where we have somebody on a guitar who's just leading a worship song guitar who's just leading a worship song guitar who's just leading a worship song with our church. with our church. with our church. After we go from that, we have a time of After we go from that, we have a time of After we go from that, we have a time of prayer. People raise up their prayer prayer. People raise up their prayer prayer. People raise up their prayer concerns live in the chat. We have concerns live in the chat. We have concerns live in the chat. We have someone who comes online from a bunch of someone who comes online from a bunch of someone who comes online from a bunch of different places in the world and they different places in the world and they different places in the world and they will pray over those things. I teach and will pray over those things. I teach and will pray over those things. I teach and believe it or not, we don't teach like a believe it or not, we don't teach like a believe it or not, we don't teach like a short like segment. Most people think short like segment. Most people think short like segment. Most people think online, people's attention span are online, people's attention span are online, people's attention span are short, you probably need a short sermon. short, you probably need a short sermon. short, you probably need a short sermon. I actually teach longer at Lux than I I actually teach longer at Lux than I I actually teach longer at Lux than I ever have done anywhere else. So I teach ever have done anywhere else. So I teach ever have done anywhere else. So I teach like [clears throat] 40 minutes. like [clears throat] 40 minutes. like [clears throat] 40 minutes. >> message be? Yeah, I teach usually for >> message be? Yeah, I teach usually for >> message be? Yeah, I teach usually for about 40 minutes, something around that. about 40 minutes, something around that. about 40 minutes, something around that. >> live into the camera, mic >> live into the camera, mic >> live into the camera, mic >> Yep. Kind of >> Yep. Kind of >> Yep. Kind of >> Yeah, I'm sitting I'm usually sitting >> Yeah, I'm sitting I'm usually sitting >> Yeah, I'm sitting I'm usually sitting about 2 and 1/2 ft from the camera. I about 2 and 1/2 ft from the camera. I about 2 and 1/2 ft from the camera. I have a TV screen next to it where I'm have a TV screen next to it where I'm have a TV screen next to it where I'm seeing chat live. I am actively seeing chat live. I am actively seeing chat live. I am actively welcoming people live while I'm welcoming people live while I'm welcoming people live while I'm teaching. I'm also actively interacting teaching. I'm also actively interacting teaching. I'm also actively interacting with the chat while I'm teaching. I with the chat while I'm teaching. I with the chat while I'm teaching. I might actively answer questions that my might actively answer questions that my might actively answer questions that my team pulls and sends to me over my phone team pulls and sends to me over my phone team pulls and sends to me over my phone live while I'm teaching. Not always, but live while I'm teaching. Not always, but live while I'm teaching. Not always, but quite frequently I'm live interacting quite frequently I'm live interacting quite frequently I'm live interacting with chat. And then we have our worship with chat. And then we have our worship with chat. And then we have our worship team, which we can get into maybe later team, which we can get into maybe later team, which we can get into maybe later in the show. Um those are pre-recorded.

in the show. Um those are pre-recorded. in the show. Um those are pre-recorded. So our worship team gets click tracks, So our worship team gets click tracks, So our worship team gets click tracks, they record separately wherever they are they record separately wherever they are they record separately wherever they are and then we put those things together in and then we put those things together in and then we put those things together in videos. Um and then and then I sit on a videos. Um and then and then I sit on a videos. Um and then and then I sit on a couch and I answer questions at the end couch and I answer questions at the end couch and I answer questions at the end of service and we interact, have a of service and we interact, have a of service and we interact, have a benediction, and then we open up about a benediction, and then we open up about a benediction, and then we open up about a dozen video chat rooms over in Discord. dozen video chat rooms over in Discord. dozen video chat rooms over in Discord. Everything from prayer rooms, meet the Everything from prayer rooms, meet the Everything from prayer rooms, meet the pastor, next steps, and then a whole pastor, next steps, and then a whole pastor, next steps, and then a whole bunch of places where people are just bunch of places where people are just bunch of places where people are just hanging out and gaming. And then we as hanging out and gaming. And then we as hanging out and gaming. And then we as pastors all go over, jump into those pastors all go over, jump into those pastors all go over, jump into those voice chats. We're hanging out in video voice chats. We're hanging out in video voice chats. We're hanging out in video chats like Zoom calls with people. Um chats like Zoom calls with people. Um chats like Zoom calls with people. Um and we pop from one to the next and hang and we pop from one to the next and hang and we pop from one to the next and hang out and say hi to people. Someone needs out and say hi to people. Someone needs out and say hi to people. Someone needs prayer, we'll pop into a private room prayer, we'll pop into a private room prayer, we'll pop into a private room and pray with them. Um all the same and pray with them. Um all the same and pray with them. Um all the same stuff you would do at a church except we stuff you would do at a church except we stuff you would do at a church except we usually hang out I usually hang out till usually hang out I usually hang out till usually hang out I usually hang out till 11:30 or midnight and we have our team 11:30 or midnight and we have our team 11:30 or midnight and we have our team volunteers sometimes are there till 3:00 volunteers sometimes are there till 3:00 volunteers sometimes are there till 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. Um or 4:00 in the morning. Um or 4:00 in the morning. Um >> is like a 4 to 8-hour kind of >> is like a 4 to 8-hour kind of >> is like a 4 to 8-hour kind of experience, 6-hour experience. Yeah, experience, 6-hour experience. Yeah, experience, 6-hour experience. Yeah, it's not it's not short. And then you it's not it's not short. And then you it's not it's not short. And then you know, we have a whole network of small know, we have a whole network of small know, we have a whole network of small groups that meet all week and Bible groups that meet all week and Bible groups that meet all week and Bible studies and a co-working chat that studies and a co-working chat that studies and a co-working chat that happens almost every single day during happens almost every single day during happens almost every single day during the week. And so like the we're we're the week. And so like the we're we're the week. And so like the we're we're really not like a service-centric model.

really not like a service-centric model. really not like a service-centric model. Um we have a Wednesday night service, Um we have a Wednesday night service, Um we have a Wednesday night service, but we are actively in the life of our but we are actively in the life of our but we are actively in the life of our church in relationship, in community church in relationship, in community church in relationship, in community with them every single day. with them every single day. with them every single day. Okay. And do you make that available on Okay. And do you make that available on Okay. And do you make that available on demand or it's sort of no, you got to be demand or it's sort of no, you got to be demand or it's sort of no, you got to be there live? there live? there live? Yeah, so we do release the video of our Yeah, so we do release the video of our Yeah, so we do release the video of our sermon and the worship, not the opening sermon and the worship, not the opening sermon and the worship, not the opening and not the closing. That goes out on and not the closing. That goes out on and not the closing. That goes out on YouTube every Friday morning. And we YouTube every Friday morning. And we YouTube every Friday morning. And we actually tell people who are part of actually tell people who are part of actually tell people who are part of that that they're part of our on-demand that that they're part of our on-demand that that they're part of our on-demand family and we ask them and welcome them family and we ask them and welcome them family and we ask them and welcome them to come over and join us in Discord to come over and join us in Discord to come over and join us in Discord where really the heartbeat of our church where really the heartbeat of our church where really the heartbeat of our church is, right? Like whether you show up live is, right? Like whether you show up live is, right? Like whether you show up live on a Wednesday night or not doesn't on a Wednesday night or not doesn't on a Wednesday night or not doesn't really determine your capability of really determine your capability of really determine your capability of being able to be part of our church being able to be part of our church being able to be part of our church family. family. family. Okay, so YouTube is sort of your Okay, so YouTube is sort of your Okay, so YouTube is sort of your streamer streamer streamer and the church happens inside Discord. and the church happens inside Discord. and the church happens inside Discord. Well, Twitch is where we live stream to. Well, Twitch is where we live stream to. Well, Twitch is where we live stream to. >> Twitch is where you live stream. >> Twitch is where you live stream. >> Twitch is where you live stream. >> Yeah, so picture Twitch is our live >> Yeah, so picture Twitch is our live >> Yeah, so picture Twitch is our live stream. So picture Twitch is our stream. So picture Twitch is our stream. So picture Twitch is our sanctuary, right? That's our that's our sanctuary, right? That's our that's our sanctuary, right? That's our that's our worship center. Discord is every other worship center. Discord is every other worship center. Discord is every other part of our church building and YouTube part of our church building and YouTube part of our church building and YouTube is in some ways we're we're really is in some ways we're we're really is in some ways we're we're really positioning it differently right now, positioning it differently right now, positioning it differently right now, but at least originally when I was when but at least originally when I was when but at least originally when I was when I was the only one on staff, um it was I was the only one on staff, um it was I was the only one on staff, um it was our archive.

our archive. our archive. Okay. So how does the word get out? How Okay. So how does the word get out? How Okay. So how does the word get out? How do you people like I think most of us do you people like I think most of us do you people like I think most of us have some idea about how to share on have some idea about how to share on have some idea about how to share on social, how to gain traction on the social, how to gain traction on the social, how to gain traction on the internet, on YouTube, etc. But like when internet, on YouTube, etc. But like when internet, on YouTube, etc. But like when you're inside Twitch or Discord, how you're inside Twitch or Discord, how you're inside Twitch or Discord, how does a movement grow? does a movement grow? does a movement grow? Yeah. Well, you know, Yeah. Well, you know, Yeah. Well, you know, Carrie, it's really no different. It Carrie, it's really no different. It Carrie, it's really no different. It What we're going to What I'll What I'm What we're going to What I'll What I'm What we're going to What I'll What I'm going to say a lot is it's really no going to say a lot is it's really no going to say a lot is it's really no different. Um different. Um different. Um >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> like the skill set that I use, the way >> like the skill set that I use, the way >> like the skill set that I use, the way that we grow, uh the way that we that we grow, uh the way that we that we grow, uh the way that we interact, the way that we make disciples interact, the way that we make disciples interact, the way that we make disciples is no different than what you would do is no different than what you would do is no different than what you would do in physical church. It's the same in physical church. It's the same in physical church. It's the same skills, it's just different tools. And skills, it's just different tools. And skills, it's just different tools. And so people find out about our church by so people find out about our church by so people find out about our church by word of mouth cuz it turns out digitally word of mouth cuz it turns out digitally word of mouth cuz it turns out digitally native gamers have friends who are native gamers have friends who are native gamers have friends who are digitally native gamers, and they invite digitally native gamers, and they invite digitally native gamers, and they invite their friends who are digitally native their friends who are digitally native their friends who are digitally native gamers who don't know Jesus to come to gamers who don't know Jesus to come to gamers who don't know Jesus to come to church with them. And so our church has church with them. And so our church has church with them. And so our church has grown by word of mouth. We have done one grown by word of mouth. We have done one grown by word of mouth. We have done one ever paid social media campaign for our ever paid social media campaign for our ever paid social media campaign for our first Easter. We've never paid anything first Easter. We've never paid anything first Easter. We've never paid anything for social media or advertisements for social media or advertisements for social media or advertisements again. We have a couple of platforms again. We have a couple of platforms again. We have a couple of platforms that we post on that we kind of view as that we post on that we kind of view as that we post on that we kind of view as road signs, which is like our Instagram road signs, which is like our Instagram road signs, which is like our Instagram account, our TikTok account. We don't account, our TikTok account. We don't account, our TikTok account. We don't They don't have the tools to build They don't have the tools to build They don't have the tools to build community there, and so we we view those community there, and so we we view those community there, and so we we view those places as road signs, whereas things places as road signs, whereas things places as road signs, whereas things like YouTube or Facebook we're very like YouTube or Facebook we're very like YouTube or Facebook we're very we're careful with what we do there cuz we're careful with what we do there cuz we're careful with what we do there cuz we view them as future cities that we we view them as future cities that we we view them as future cities that we could plant a church in. And so those could plant a church in. And so those could plant a church in. And so those are future church plant sites, whereas are future church plant sites, whereas are future church plant sites, whereas some of our social platforms are just some of our social platforms are just some of our social platforms are just Yeah, potential locations. Some of our Yeah, potential locations. Some of our Yeah, potential locations. Some of our social platforms are are more like social platforms are are more like social platforms are are more like advertising opportunities. So some advertising opportunities. So some advertising opportunities. So some people find us through that the same as people find us through that the same as people find us through that the same as they would drive down the street, and

they would drive down the street, and they would drive down the street, and they might find your road sign and say, they might find your road sign and say, they might find your road sign and say, "Hey, I forgot about that church. Let's "Hey, I forgot about that church. Let's "Hey, I forgot about that church. Let's go check out that church this weekend." go check out that church this weekend." go check out that church this weekend." Um for us it just means that something Um for us it just means that something Um for us it just means that something got road signed through their algorithm got road signed through their algorithm got road signed through their algorithm on Instagram potentially. on Instagram potentially. on Instagram potentially. Wow, okay. I'm getting a picture now of Wow, okay. I'm getting a picture now of Wow, okay. I'm getting a picture now of what you're doing, which sounds really what you're doing, which sounds really what you're doing, which sounds really cool. What are some of the key cool. What are some of the key cool. What are some of the key similarities cuz you led a church for similarities cuz you led a church for similarities cuz you led a church for years years years in a traditional sense, right? in a traditional sense, right? in a traditional sense, right? Contemporary traditional. Um so when you Contemporary traditional. Um so when you Contemporary traditional. Um so when you think about comparing the two models, think about comparing the two models, think about comparing the two models, the dominant model of church and then the dominant model of church and then the dominant model of church and then your model. What is the same and what is your model. What is the same and what is your model. What is the same and what is different? You've already hinted at a different? You've already hinted at a different? You've already hinted at a little bit, but I want to go deeper. little bit, but I want to go deeper. little bit, but I want to go deeper. What's the same? What's different? What's the same? What's different? What's the same? What's different? Yeah, so the the same is people. They Yeah, so the the same is people. They Yeah, so the the same is people. They have the same problems. have the same problems. have the same problems. They're going through the same things. They're going through the same things. They're going through the same things. They have the same spiritual questions. They have the same spiritual questions. They have the same spiritual questions. Uh they do the same good things and bad Uh they do the same good things and bad Uh they do the same good things and bad things in a physical church as they do things in a physical church as they do things in a physical church as they do in a digital church. Um and so in some in a digital church. Um and so in some in a digital church. Um and so in some ways the people is very similar. Um the ways the people is very similar. Um the ways the people is very similar. Um the the the the the function is very similar as well. the function is very similar as well. the function is very similar as well. Like right, I'm leading small groups, Like right, I'm leading small groups, Like right, I'm leading small groups, leading Bible studies, writing sermons.

leading Bible studies, writing sermons. leading Bible studies, writing sermons. As you know, I am sitting in pastoral As you know, I am sitting in pastoral As you know, I am sitting in pastoral counseling calls. I'm We're caring for counseling calls. I'm We're caring for counseling calls. I'm We're caring for people, right? Uh in in some ways like people, right? Uh in in some ways like people, right? Uh in in some ways like all of that remains the same. I'm still all of that remains the same. I'm still all of that remains the same. I'm still a pastor in all of the ways that I was a a pastor in all of the ways that I was a a pastor in all of the ways that I was a pastor before. What's different in some pastor before. What's different in some pastor before. What's different in some ways is efficiency, right? I'm capable ways is efficiency, right? I'm capable ways is efficiency, right? I'm capable of being wildly more efficient because of being wildly more efficient because of being wildly more efficient because nobody can hijack my day cuz I have a nobody can hijack my day cuz I have a nobody can hijack my day cuz I have a little bit more control over it. I um I little bit more control over it. I um I little bit more control over it. I um I have to be exceedingly more intentional, have to be exceedingly more intentional, have to be exceedingly more intentional, right? And so one of the things that right? And so one of the things that right? And so one of the things that happens physically that you happens physically that you happens physically that you underestimate and you take for granted underestimate and you take for granted underestimate and you take for granted is like if I am at the end of service is like if I am at the end of service is like if I am at the end of service and I'm standing up front and somebody and I'm standing up front and somebody and I'm standing up front and somebody comes up because they just lost their comes up because they just lost their comes up because they just lost their husband and I need to pray with them. husband and I need to pray with them. husband and I need to pray with them. The person waiting in line behind them The person waiting in line behind them The person waiting in line behind them to talk with me as the pastor is to talk with me as the pastor is to talk with me as the pastor is subconsciously and sort of suddenly subconsciously and sort of suddenly subconsciously and sort of suddenly being discipled by me on how you care being discipled by me on how you care being discipled by me on how you care for someone who just lost their husband. for someone who just lost their husband. for someone who just lost their husband. That doesn't happen for me. Nobody is That doesn't happen for me. Nobody is That doesn't happen for me. Nobody is eavesdropping in on conversations that eavesdropping in on conversations that eavesdropping in on conversations that I'm having with I'm having with I'm having with >> of the conversations are private, right? >> of the conversations are private, right? >> of the conversations are private, right? Yes. And far more private. Yes. And far more private. Yes. And far more private. >> maybe on Sunday morning, Perhaps in the >> maybe on Sunday morning, Perhaps in the >> maybe on Sunday morning, Perhaps in the chat on yeah, on our live services not chat on yeah, on our live services not chat on yeah, on our live services not as private. They might see how I as private. They might see how I as private. They might see how I interact with people publicly, but a lot interact with people publicly, but a lot interact with people publicly, but a lot more of my time is spent in more of my time is spent in more of my time is spent in intentionality. I'm not going to bump intentionality. I'm not going to bump intentionality. I'm not going to bump into you at Walmart, right? Because we into you at Walmart, right? Because we into you at Walmart, right? Because we don't live near one another. So I'm not don't live near one another. So I'm not don't live near one another. So I'm not You're not going to bump into me and I'm You're not going to bump into me and I'm You're not going to bump into me and I'm going to remind you, "Hey, we would love going to remind you, "Hey, we would love going to remind you, "Hey, we would love to see you at church this weekend." If I to see you at church this weekend." If I to see you at church this weekend." If I I to tell someone we'd love to see you I to tell someone we'd love to see you I to tell someone we'd love to see you at church on Wednesday night, I need to at church on Wednesday night, I need to at church on Wednesday night, I need to intentionally pursue that person. And intentionally pursue that person. And intentionally pursue that person. And so, the online space requires an insane so, the online space requires an insane so, the online space requires an insane amount of empathy amount of empathy amount of empathy and a crazy amount of intentionality.

and a crazy amount of intentionality. and a crazy amount of intentionality. Way more than what the church right now, Way more than what the church right now, Way more than what the church right now, what we do online is almost the opposite what we do online is almost the opposite what we do online is almost the opposite of that. What most churches are doing of that. What most churches are doing of that. What most churches are doing online is actually an extreme lack of online is actually an extreme lack of online is actually an extreme lack of empathy and intentionality versus what empathy and intentionality versus what empathy and intentionality versus what the digital space actually needs. the digital space actually needs. the digital space actually needs. >> broadcast, broadcast. >> broadcast, broadcast. >> broadcast, broadcast. >> Which is not church. >> Which is not church. >> Which is not church. >> people join. >> people join. >> people join. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. So, do you ever, cuz I know this So, do you ever, cuz I know this So, do you ever, cuz I know this question will come up if I don't ask it. question will come up if I don't ask it. question will come up if I don't ask it. Do you ever encourage people to meet up Do you ever encourage people to meet up Do you ever encourage people to meet up online in like the people who you're online in like the people who you're online in like the people who you're meeting on, do you ever encourage them meeting on, do you ever encourage them meeting on, do you ever encourage them to meet in person or get connected to a to meet in person or get connected to a to meet in person or get connected to a local church or is this their church in local church or is this their church in local church or is this their church in your view? Yeah, so occasionally, yes. your view? Yeah, so occasionally, yes. your view? Yeah, so occasionally, yes. And so, And so, And so, um for some people, it's really clear to um for some people, it's really clear to um for some people, it's really clear to us that like they're not really us that like they're not really us that like they're not really digitally native, they don't really know digitally native, they don't really know digitally native, they don't really know how to use the tools, they're not very how to use the tools, they're not very how to use the tools, they're not very good at building online relationships. good at building online relationships. good at building online relationships. And in that case, sometimes like they And in that case, sometimes like they And in that case, sometimes like they get plugged in here and they experience get plugged in here and they experience get plugged in here and they experience Jesus in a fresh way, and they haven't Jesus in a fresh way, and they haven't Jesus in a fresh way, and they haven't been to church in a really long time, been to church in a really long time, been to church in a really long time, and it's clear that they should probably and it's clear that they should probably and it's clear that they should probably find a local physical congregation to find a local physical congregation to find a local physical congregation to get plugged into. And sometimes we help get plugged into. And sometimes we help get plugged into. And sometimes we help people find those.

people find those. people find those. But we don't view our church as sort of But we don't view our church as sort of But we don't view our church as sort of like, and I don't I'm not I'm not taking like, and I don't I'm not I'm not taking like, and I don't I'm not I'm not taking any shots, okay, as any sort of like in any shots, okay, as any sort of like in any shots, okay, as any sort of like in in quotations that we're a church. We in quotations that we're a church. We in quotations that we're a church. We view ourselves as fully being a church. view ourselves as fully being a church. view ourselves as fully being a church. And so, if your church expression is And so, if your church expression is And so, if your church expression is with us, we believe that you can fully with us, we believe that you can fully with us, we believe that you can fully experience what it is to be part of the experience what it is to be part of the experience what it is to be part of the body and bride of Christ through Lux body and bride of Christ through Lux body and bride of Christ through Lux Digital Church. And so, we're not Digital Church. And so, we're not Digital Church. And so, we're not constantly trying to channel people out constantly trying to channel people out constantly trying to channel people out and into physical churches. There are and into physical churches. There are and into physical churches. There are times when that's appropriate. Now, do times when that's appropriate. Now, do times when that's appropriate. Now, do we encourage people to meet up? we encourage people to meet up? we encourage people to meet up? Absolutely. Yeah, there are times when Absolutely. Yeah, there are times when Absolutely. Yeah, there are times when we have met up with people. There's a we have met up with people. There's a we have met up with people. There's a decent number of people that I've met up decent number of people that I've met up decent number of people that I've met up with. We have um with. We have um with. We have um a lot of time, I spend a good Well, not a lot of time, I spend a good Well, not a lot of time, I spend a good Well, not a lot of time, but I spend some time in a lot of time, but I spend some time in a lot of time, but I spend some time in Africa. And so, I've led two mission Africa. And so, I've led two mission Africa. And so, I've led two mission trips from our church into Africa. We've trips from our church into Africa. We've trips from our church into Africa. We've done some local missions trips with done some local missions trips with done some local missions trips with friend of ours who lead an organization friend of ours who lead an organization friend of ours who lead an organization called Love Thy Nerd that does missions called Love Thy Nerd that does missions called Love Thy Nerd that does missions trips in a board game and anime trips in a board game and anime trips in a board game and anime conventions and things. And so, we've conventions and things. And so, we've conventions and things. And so, we've led I've gone with team members and led I've gone with team members and led I've gone with team members and people from my church I've met for the people from my church I've met for the people from my church I've met for the first time picking them up from the first time picking them up from the first time picking them up from the airport going on mission with them. But, airport going on mission with them. But, airport going on mission with them. But, we've been in ministry together for two we've been in ministry together for two we've been in ministry together for two or three years before I've met them in or three years before I've met them in or three years before I've met them in person. So, we just pick up right where person. So, we just pick up right where person. So, we just pick up right where we are. They're just relationships that we are. They're just relationships that we are. They're just relationships that I already have.

I already have. I already have. And then we do have had some like And then we do have had some like And then we do have had some like meetups. We did a Pittsburgh meetup. We meetups. We did a Pittsburgh meetup. We meetups. We did a Pittsburgh meetup. We did an Atlanta meetup. did an Atlanta meetup. did an Atlanta meetup. We do a meetup every year right now in We do a meetup every year right now in We do a meetup every year right now in Colorado Springs called the Nerd Culture Colorado Springs called the Nerd Culture Colorado Springs called the Nerd Culture Ministry Summit, which is more of like a Ministry Summit, which is more of like a Ministry Summit, which is more of like a it's a conference for us. But, we also it's a conference for us. But, we also it's a conference for us. But, we also have people who come in from our church have people who come in from our church have people who come in from our church will come and gather just to come and be will come and gather just to come and be will come and gather just to come and be part of that and be be there meet the part of that and be be there meet the part of that and be be there meet the pastors and things like that. pastors and things like that. pastors and things like that. And so, yeah, we do encourage people to And so, yeah, we do encourage people to And so, yeah, we do encourage people to meet up physically. But, more meet up physically. But, more meet up physically. But, more importantly, we encourage people like in importantly, we encourage people like in importantly, we encourage people like in your direct physical vicinity, like if your direct physical vicinity, like if your direct physical vicinity, like if if Lux is impacting your life, if Lux is impacting your life, if Lux is impacting your life, you should change the way you live you should change the way you live you should change the way you live locally and physically. locally and physically. locally and physically. Right? There should be a noticeable Right? There should be a noticeable Right? There should be a noticeable difference, right? So, when when a difference, right? So, when when a difference, right? So, when when a pastor preaches on a Sunday morning at a pastor preaches on a Sunday morning at a pastor preaches on a Sunday morning at a physical church, he hopes that his physical church, he hopes that his physical church, he hopes that his people are changed and transformed by people are changed and transformed by people are changed and transformed by that interaction that interaction that interaction so much so that they don't go home and so much so that they don't go home and so much so that they don't go home and act like a bozo on Facebook, right? act like a bozo on Facebook, right? act like a bozo on Facebook, right? So, you're hoping that your physical So, you're hoping that your physical So, you're hoping that your physical presence transforms the way they presence transforms the way they presence transforms the way they interact digitally. interact digitally. interact digitally. Same is true for me. It's just flipped. Same is true for me. It's just flipped. Same is true for me. It's just flipped. So, our digital interaction is changing So, our digital interaction is changing So, our digital interaction is changing and transforming the way that people are and transforming the way that people are and transforming the way that people are living physically.

living physically. living physically. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fascinating. Fascinating. Fascinating. What would you say you mentioned the What would you say you mentioned the What would you say you mentioned the term digital native a few times. What term digital native a few times. What term digital native a few times. What are some key characteristics of digital are some key characteristics of digital are some key characteristics of digital natives? Because and I'm I'm asking the natives? Because and I'm I'm asking the natives? Because and I'm I'm asking the question part because I'm curious about question part because I'm curious about question part because I'm curious about what you're doing, but I'm also thinking what you're doing, but I'm also thinking what you're doing, but I'm also thinking about the tens of thousands of church about the tens of thousands of church about the tens of thousands of church leaders listening who have a bunch of leaders listening who have a bunch of leaders listening who have a bunch of digital natives actually in their digital natives actually in their digital natives actually in their congregation who are engaging in congregation who are engaging in congregation who are engaging in physical church. So, what are some of physical church. So, what are some of physical church. So, what are some of the signs the characteristics of being a the signs the characteristics of being a the signs the characteristics of being a digital native. digital native. digital native. Yeah, I think the number one sign is Yeah, I think the number one sign is Yeah, I think the number one sign is that this is where some of your key and that this is where some of your key and that this is where some of your key and most important relationships are. These most important relationships are. These most important relationships are. These are the people that you confide in the are the people that you confide in the are the people that you confide in the most, people that know the most about most, people that know the most about most, people that know the most about your life. You know, there's people in your life. You know, there's people in your life. You know, there's people in our church who met the best man in their our church who met the best man in their our church who met the best man in their wedding on the day they got married, but wedding on the day they got married, but wedding on the day they got married, but they had been on Xbox Live with them for they had been on Xbox Live with them for they had been on Xbox Live with them for 12 years almost nightly prior to that. 12 years almost nightly prior to that. 12 years almost nightly prior to that. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> their best friend. It is the closest >> their best friend. It is the closest >> their best friend. It is the closest confident. That is a genuine, real confident. That is a genuine, real confident. That is a genuine, real relationship. That's not void, it's not relationship. That's not void, it's not relationship. That's not void, it's not fake, it's not just because it happened fake, it's not just because it happened fake, it's not just because it happened online doesn't mean it doesn't exist, online doesn't mean it doesn't exist, online doesn't mean it doesn't exist, doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. And doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. And doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. And so, I think digital natives so, I think digital natives so, I think digital natives naturally build relationships online.

naturally build relationships online. naturally build relationships online. That being said, I also think we're That being said, I also think we're That being said, I also think we're coming into generations right now that coming into generations right now that coming into generations right now that aren't aren't aren't uh that are predominantly, if not uh that are predominantly, if not uh that are predominantly, if not entirely, digitally native. And so, I I entirely, digitally native. And so, I I entirely, digitally native. And so, I I have a hypothesis, and that is that have a hypothesis, and that is that have a hypothesis, and that is that depending on the age that you were when depending on the age that you were when depending on the age that you were when the internet came out has deeply the internet came out has deeply the internet came out has deeply impacted the way you view online space. impacted the way you view online space. impacted the way you view online space. And so, the older you are, the more And so, the older you are, the more And so, the older you are, the more likely you are to see the internet as a likely you are to see the internet as a likely you are to see the internet as a tool. tool. tool. The younger you are, the more likely you The younger you are, the more likely you The younger you are, the more likely you are to see the internet as a place. are to see the internet as a place. are to see the internet as a place. And so, for example, as a sixth grader, And so, for example, as a sixth grader, And so, for example, as a sixth grader, um I was taught how to use encyclopedias um I was taught how to use encyclopedias um I was taught how to use encyclopedias in the library. As a seventh grader, we in the library. As a seventh grader, we in the library. As a seventh grader, we got taken to the computer room and I got got taken to the computer room and I got got taken to the computer room and I got taught how to put parentheses around taught how to put parentheses around taught how to put parentheses around Yahoo search bars and search for Yahoo search bars and search for Yahoo search bars and search for specific things. specific things. specific things. I've never used an encyclopedia again in I've never used an encyclopedia again in I've never used an encyclopedia again in my life. Never once have I ever opened my life. Never once have I ever opened my life. Never once have I ever opened one. one. one. Because the internet was an amazing Because the internet was an amazing Because the internet was an amazing tool. tool. tool. At the same time in seventh grade, I At the same time in seventh grade, I At the same time in seventh grade, I would come home, I would come home from would come home, I would come home from would come home, I would come home from school, I would log on AOL Instant school, I would log on AOL Instant school, I would log on AOL Instant Messenger, I'd hear the creak of the Messenger, I'd hear the creak of the Messenger, I'd hear the creak of the door open, and I would begin messaging door open, and I would begin messaging door open, and I would begin messaging back and forth with kids at school that back and forth with kids at school that back and forth with kids at school that would tell me more about what was going would tell me more about what was going would tell me more about what was going on inside their homes over AIM, and they on inside their homes over AIM, and they on inside their homes over AIM, and they would never have even spoken to a would never have even spoken to a would never have even spoken to a Dungeons and Dragons nerd like me in Dungeons and Dragons nerd like me in Dungeons and Dragons nerd like me in school. Mhm. And that was actually my school. Mhm. And that was actually my school. Mhm. And that was actually my first opportunity for ministry. I was first opportunity for ministry. I was first opportunity for ministry. I was actually ministering, unknowingly, actually ministering, unknowingly, actually ministering, unknowingly, ministering to people using AOL Instant ministering to people using AOL Instant ministering to people using AOL Instant Messenger in seventh grade. Just Messenger in seventh grade. Just Messenger in seventh grade. Just reaching out to people, caring for reaching out to people, caring for reaching out to people, caring for people, being Christ to people who would people, being Christ to people who would people, being Christ to people who would never have talked to me physically, had never have talked to me physically, had never have talked to me physically, had no interaction or relationship with me no interaction or relationship with me no interaction or relationship with me there, but we're developing relationship there, but we're developing relationship there, but we're developing relationship with me using entirely digital tools.

with me using entirely digital tools. with me using entirely digital tools. So, for me, So, for me, So, for me, the internet was a tool, and a good one, the internet was a tool, and a good one, the internet was a tool, and a good one, and it was a place, and an awesome one. and it was a place, and an awesome one. and it was a place, and an awesome one. And as I've grown, I have And as I've grown, I have And as I've grown, I have [clears throat] learned to exist more [clears throat] learned to exist more [clears throat] learned to exist more and more inside of digital places. Now, and more inside of digital places. Now, and more inside of digital places. Now, the next generation, my daughters, like the next generation, my daughters, like the next generation, my daughters, like I have a six and a or six and an I have a six and a or six and an I have a six and a or six and an eight-year-old, eight-year-old, eight-year-old, the YouTube algorithm is learning them the YouTube algorithm is learning them the YouTube algorithm is learning them as they are learning them. They're not as they are learning them. They're not as they are learning them. They're not forging a digital personality or a forging a digital personality or a forging a digital personality or a digital identity separate from a digital identity separate from a digital identity separate from a physical one. I can remember recreating physical one. I can remember recreating physical one. I can remember recreating myself online. My daughters will likely myself online. My daughters will likely myself online. My daughters will likely never have that memory. never have that memory. never have that memory. Because they will form their digital and Because they will form their digital and Because they will form their digital and physical identity simultaneously. The physical identity simultaneously. The physical identity simultaneously. The younger people are the less likely they younger people are the less likely they younger people are the less likely they are to depend on anonymity on the are to depend on anonymity on the are to depend on anonymity on the internet. The more likely they are to be internet. The more likely they are to be internet. The more likely they are to be totally transparent about who they are totally transparent about who they are totally transparent about who they are because they've formed these identities because they've formed these identities because they've formed these identities together. So, the reason why it's so together. So, the reason why it's so together. So, the reason why it's so important for the church to learn how to important for the church to learn how to important for the church to learn how to exist powerfully, impactfully, and exist powerfully, impactfully, and exist powerfully, impactfully, and biblically in digital space is because biblically in digital space is because biblically in digital space is because the emerging generations are going to the emerging generations are going to the emerging generations are going to live fully in both worlds. live fully in both worlds. live fully in both worlds. It's almost like Ready Player One. Here It's almost like Ready Player One. Here It's almost like Ready Player One. Here we are. we are. we are. In some ways, yes, but in some ways it In some ways, yes, but in some ways it In some ways, yes, but in some ways it isn't, right? And so, in in some ways, I isn't, right? And so, in in some ways, I isn't, right? And so, in in some ways, I agree with you. There it's like this, agree with you. There it's like this, agree with you. There it's like this, but Ready Player One really leans into but Ready Player One really leans into but Ready Player One really leans into almost the sort of like retro version of almost the sort of like retro version of almost the sort of like retro version of what a technological future would be what a technological future would be what a technological future would be like, right? Where it's it's almost like, right? Where it's it's almost like, right? Where it's it's almost intrusive, right? Whereas technology intrusive, right? Whereas technology intrusive, right? Whereas technology instead has become such that it wants to instead has become such that it wants to instead has become such that it wants to fold seamlessly into our world. It's why fold seamlessly into our world. It's why fold seamlessly into our world. It's why VR had its heyday four or five years VR had its heyday four or five years VR had its heyday four or five years ago, and why AR seems to be something ago, and why AR seems to be something ago, and why AR seems to be something that's far more popular and more that's far more popular and more that's far more popular and more prevalent in technology and being

prevalent in technology and being prevalent in technology and being invested in by companies today. Because invested in by companies today. Because invested in by companies today. Because we actually want technology that doesn't we actually want technology that doesn't we actually want technology that doesn't it doesn't change, and it doesn't it doesn't change, and it doesn't it doesn't change, and it doesn't inhibit our ability to interact inhibit our ability to interact inhibit our ability to interact physically. We want it to fold physically. We want it to fold physically. We want it to fold seamlessly into our reality so we can seamlessly into our reality so we can seamlessly into our reality so we can walk hybridly between one and the next. walk hybridly between one and the next. walk hybridly between one and the next. It's why the iPhone goes to the edge of It's why the iPhone goes to the edge of It's why the iPhone goes to the edge of your screen. It's why your Apple Watch your screen. It's why your Apple Watch your screen. It's why your Apple Watch suddenly gives you notifications on your suddenly gives you notifications on your suddenly gives you notifications on your wrist because it doesn't want to intrude wrist because it doesn't want to intrude wrist because it doesn't want to intrude on you. It actually wants to augment and on you. It actually wants to augment and on you. It actually wants to augment and allow you to walk seamlessly between allow you to walk seamlessly between allow you to walk seamlessly between those realities. those realities. those realities. What um what do you make of research uh What um what do you make of research uh What um what do you make of research uh you know, there's so much out there, but you know, there's so much out there, but you know, there's so much out there, but let's just name Jonathan Haidt, Jean let's just name Jonathan Haidt, Jean let's just name Jonathan Haidt, Jean Twenge about time spent online and they Twenge about time spent online and they Twenge about time spent online and they do a lot of work on social media and the do a lot of work on social media and the do a lot of work on social media and the negative psychological impact that that negative psychological impact that that negative psychological impact that that seems to be having on a generation. Like seems to be having on a generation. Like seems to be having on a generation. Like the data all the research suggests the the data all the research suggests the the data all the research suggests the more time you spend online online more time you spend online online more time you spend online online the greater your mental health the greater your mental health the greater your mental health challenges will be, the more lonely you challenges will be, the more lonely you challenges will be, the more lonely you are, the more isolated you feel. Agree, are, the more isolated you feel. Agree, are, the more isolated you feel. Agree, disagree, what's your take on that? disagree, what's your take on that? disagree, what's your take on that? Yeah, I agree. I think chronically Yeah, I agree. I think chronically Yeah, I agree. I think chronically digital lifestyles are really unhealthy.

digital lifestyles are really unhealthy. digital lifestyles are really unhealthy. Um Okay. And so that's primarily who Um Okay. And so that's primarily who Um Okay. And so that's primarily who you're dealing with in your church. you're dealing with in your church. you're dealing with in your church. Yes and no. Um Yes and no. Um Yes and no. Um >> Okay. And so you have some people who >> Okay. And so you have some people who >> Okay. And so you have some people who are chronically online and that is the are chronically online and that is the are chronically online and that is the case and we do have those people. But case and we do have those people. But case and we do have those people. But you know, we also have Corey who is a you know, we also have Corey who is a you know, we also have Corey who is a scientist and works in a lab and has two scientist and works in a lab and has two scientist and works in a lab and has two boys and one on the way and his wife is boys and one on the way and his wife is boys and one on the way and his wife is a teacher in Wisconsin and they love the a teacher in Wisconsin and they love the a teacher in Wisconsin and they love the Lord and they're not chronically online. Lord and they're not chronically online. Lord and they're not chronically online. Um we also have a negative and positive Um we also have a negative and positive Um we also have a negative and positive CPU or Becca and Joey who are uh fa- CPU or Becca and Joey who are uh fa- CPU or Becca and Joey who are uh fa- father and mother of of two boys in father and mother of of two boys in father and mother of of two boys in Michigan Michigan Michigan who are both gamers. Joey streams uh who are both gamers. Joey streams uh who are both gamers. Joey streams uh quite a bit, but they also have a local quite a bit, but they also have a local quite a bit, but they also have a local physical family and digital and physical physical family and digital and physical physical family and digital and physical connections. They frequent uh of connections. They frequent uh of connections. They frequent uh of physical church in addition to being physical church in addition to being physical church in addition to being major members and uh contributors and major members and uh contributors and major members and uh contributors and and uh you know, really our church being and uh you know, really our church being and uh you know, really our church being their home. their home. their home. And uh And uh And uh and you know, they she's like a a toy and you know, they she's like a a toy and you know, they she's like a a toy and play expert for a toy store and um and play expert for a toy store and um and play expert for a toy store and um Joey works in IT and yes, they're part Joey works in IT and yes, they're part Joey works in IT and yes, they're part of our church family, but you would be of our church family, but you would be of our church family, but you would be surprised at how many people are gamers, surprised at how many people are gamers, surprised at how many people are gamers, but have just totally normal lives.

but have just totally normal lives. but have just totally normal lives. Sure. No, I totally get that. But I'm Sure. No, I totally get that. But I'm Sure. No, I totally get that. But I'm thinking about the emerging generation, thinking about the emerging generation, thinking about the emerging generation, digital natives, and more and more time digital natives, and more and more time digital natives, and more and more time online. Do you have a particular like online. Do you have a particular like online. Do you have a particular like prescription for them or prescription for them or prescription for them or recommended course of action? Are Are recommended course of action? Are Are recommended course of action? Are Are you suggesting more in real life you suggesting more in real life you suggesting more in real life experiences or you think that is just an experiences or you think that is just an experiences or you think that is just an old way of looking at things and the new old way of looking at things and the new old way of looking at things and the new has come and yeah, some people are just has come and yeah, some people are just has come and yeah, some people are just going to live online and we're going to going to live online and we're going to going to live online and we're going to have to deal with that and the mental have to deal with that and the mental have to deal with that and the mental health challenges like, you know, health challenges like, you know, health challenges like, you know, there's the the data that's coming out there's the the data that's coming out there's the the data that's coming out that um I think it's 31% of teens prefer that um I think it's 31% of teens prefer that um I think it's 31% of teens prefer conversation with an AI chatbot over an conversation with an AI chatbot over an conversation with an AI chatbot over an actual human being. actual human being. actual human being. Well, that's not a surprise, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's not a surprise, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's not a surprise, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, why is that not a surprise to Yeah. So, why is that not a surprise to Yeah. So, why is that not a surprise to you? Well, the AI chatbots right now are you? Well, the AI chatbots right now are you? Well, the AI chatbots right now are super supportive and uh super supportive and uh super supportive and uh theoretically rewarding to talk to and theoretically rewarding to talk to and theoretically rewarding to talk to and super super super super helpful. super helpful. super helpful. >> yes. Yeah, and and I and I also think >> yes. Yeah, and and I and I also think >> yes. Yeah, and and I and I also think it's just super experimental right now, it's just super experimental right now, it's just super experimental right now, right? Like it's it's new and and I I AI right? Like it's it's new and and I I AI right? Like it's it's new and and I I AI is here. It's not going anywhere. Like is here. It's not going anywhere. Like is here. It's not going anywhere. Like it is going to radically transform the it is going to radically transform the it is going to radically transform the way that we interact.

way that we interact. way that we interact. >> on it. It's like I've been a deep dive >> on it. It's like I've been a deep dive >> on it. It's like I've been a deep dive for over a year and it's insane. Yeah, for over a year and it's insane. Yeah, for over a year and it's insane. Yeah, yeah. It's not It's not like it's going yeah. It's not It's not like it's going yeah. It's not It's not like it's going away. It's going to continue to deeply away. It's going to continue to deeply away. It's going to continue to deeply deeply impact culture and society deeply impact culture and society deeply impact culture and society probably in in ways that we we can't probably in in ways that we we can't probably in in ways that we we can't possibly imagine right now. You know, I possibly imagine right now. You know, I possibly imagine right now. You know, I but for us it's like but for us it's like but for us it's like Can the online world be a dark place? Can the online world be a dark place? Can the online world be a dark place? Yes. But we're not talking about thumb Yes. But we're not talking about thumb Yes. But we're not talking about thumb flicking through an endless stream of flicking through an endless stream of flicking through an endless stream of TikToks and uh and social media reels TikToks and uh and social media reels TikToks and uh and social media reels here. Like that's not what we're doing. here. Like that's not what we're doing. here. Like that's not what we're doing. And so, what we're doing is really And so, what we're doing is really And so, what we're doing is really deeply investing in and getting to know deeply investing in and getting to know deeply investing in and getting to know people. What we're doing is deeply people. What we're doing is deeply people. What we're doing is deeply investing in relationships. As our our investing in relationships. As our our investing in relationships. As our our Dalton, our community and discipleship Dalton, our community and discipleship Dalton, our community and discipleship pastor this last year, had over 900 pastor this last year, had over 900 pastor this last year, had over 900 hours spent in voice chats. Over 900 hours spent in voice chats. Over 900 hours spent in voice chats. Over 900 hours spent with people in voice chats. hours spent with people in voice chats. hours spent with people in voice chats. Just him himself alone. We saw over Just him himself alone. We saw over Just him himself alone. We saw over 12,000 hours that were spent by people 12,000 hours that were spent by people 12,000 hours that were spent by people in our church in voice chats. But those in our church in voice chats. But those in our church in voice chats. But those aren't just like aren't just like aren't just like those aren't people like using online those aren't people like using online those aren't people like using online space to slowly become jealous of their space to slowly become jealous of their space to slowly become jealous of their neighbor and some other influencer neighbor and some other influencer neighbor and some other influencer somewhere and becoming slowly somewhere and becoming slowly somewhere and becoming slowly dissatisfied with their life. We've dissatisfied with their life. We've dissatisfied with their life. We've actually seen people detach themselves actually seen people detach themselves actually seen people detach themselves from some of the toxic elements of the from some of the toxic elements of the from some of the toxic elements of the digital space and attach themselves to digital space and attach themselves to digital space and attach themselves to really healthy life-giving discipleship really healthy life-giving discipleship really healthy life-giving discipleship relationships. And so, yes, the internet relationships. And so, yes, the internet relationships. And so, yes, the internet can be difficult, but that doesn't mean can be difficult, but that doesn't mean can be difficult, but that doesn't mean it's useless, nor does it mean it's it's useless, nor does it mean it's it's useless, nor does it mean it's evil. But it could mean the way in which evil. But it could mean the way in which evil. But it could mean the way in which we have historically used it in order to we have historically used it in order to we have historically used it in order to try to build influence or gain followers try to build influence or gain followers try to build influence or gain followers has not been very good for the human has not been very good for the human has not been very good for the human race. Yeah, it's not been very good for race. Yeah, it's not been very good for race. Yeah, it's not been very good for the human race to say the least. And I'm

the human race to say the least. And I'm the human race to say the least. And I'm not I'm not anti what you're doing. I'm not I'm not anti what you're doing. I'm not I'm not anti what you're doing. I'm just genuinely curious and trying to just genuinely curious and trying to just genuinely curious and trying to raise raise raise questions that I think most of the questions that I think most of the questions that I think most of the listeners would have. So, let let let listeners would have. So, let let let listeners would have. So, let let let a couple of scenarios, Mark. a couple of scenarios, Mark. a couple of scenarios, Mark. I'm a 24-year-old guy I'm a 24-year-old guy I'm a 24-year-old guy not attached to anybody, either living not attached to anybody, either living not attached to anybody, either living alone in my parents' basement or small alone in my parents' basement or small alone in my parents' basement or small studio apartment somewhere. Yeah. Um studio apartment somewhere. Yeah. Um studio apartment somewhere. Yeah. Um marginally employed, lonely, no marginally employed, lonely, no marginally employed, lonely, no girlfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, no in-real-life friends, and I start no in-real-life friends, and I start no in-real-life friends, and I start coming to Lux Church, to your church. coming to Lux Church, to your church. coming to Lux Church, to your church. >> Sure. What what would your prescription >> Sure. What what would your prescription >> Sure. What what would your prescription for somebody like that be? for somebody like that be? for somebody like that be? Prescription? Like Yeah, like in other Prescription? Like Yeah, like in other Prescription? Like Yeah, like in other words, like, "Hey, words, like, "Hey, words, like, "Hey, this is what you need. This is what we this is what you need. This is what we this is what you need. This is what we would encourage you to do." You're going would encourage you to do." You're going would encourage you to do." You're going to encourage him to read their Bible, to encourage him to read their Bible, to encourage him to read their Bible, you're going to encourage him to pray, you're going to encourage him to pray, you're going to encourage him to pray, you're going to encourage him to connect you're going to encourage him to connect you're going to encourage him to connect with one of the pastors, with some other with one of the pastors, with some other with one of the pastors, with some other people. But do you have any life advice people. But do you have any life advice people. But do you have any life advice on top of that? Or like I'm just curious on top of that? Or like I'm just curious on top of that? Or like I'm just curious cuz I know what Jonathan Haidt would cuz I know what Jonathan Haidt would cuz I know what Jonathan Haidt would say. Yeah. Well, I mean, we would have say. Yeah. Well, I mean, we would have say. Yeah. Well, I mean, we would have the same life advice I think that the same life advice I think that the same life advice I think that this is going to be another one of those this is going to be another one of those this is going to be another one of those where it's like, "Yeah, the same as any where it's like, "Yeah, the same as any where it's like, "Yeah, the same as any other church."

other church." other church." Um Um Um and so, like, we preach against video and so, like, we preach against video and so, like, we preach against video game addiction and being chronically game addiction and being chronically game addiction and being chronically online. And online. And online. And uh and the same things that any other uh and the same things that any other uh and the same things that any other church would see as being like, "No, church would see as being like, "No, church would see as being like, "No, man, like this seems super unhealthy for man, like this seems super unhealthy for man, like this seems super unhealthy for you. Like you should probably make some you. Like you should probably make some you. Like you should probably make some changes to how you're living." But but changes to how you're living." But but changes to how you're living." But but sometimes I think that we throw the baby sometimes I think that we throw the baby sometimes I think that we throw the baby out with the bathwater, right? It's just out with the bathwater, right? It's just out with the bathwater, right? It's just like, "Oh, this thing has had some sort like, "Oh, this thing has had some sort like, "Oh, this thing has had some sort of level of negative impact. Therefore, of level of negative impact. Therefore, of level of negative impact. Therefore, there cannot be anything that is there cannot be anything that is there cannot be anything that is redemptive or good about it." And and redemptive or good about it." And and redemptive or good about it." And and quite honestly, I've seen the exact quite honestly, I've seen the exact quite honestly, I've seen the exact opposite. I have seen the Holy Spirit opposite. I have seen the Holy Spirit opposite. I have seen the Holy Spirit work so powerfully in people's lives work so powerfully in people's lives work so powerfully in people's lives that I have never met physically and that I have never met physically and that I have never met physically and likely never will. We say all the time likely never will. We say all the time likely never will. We say all the time like, "I'm not going to hug a lot of our like, "I'm not going to hug a lot of our like, "I'm not going to hug a lot of our members of our church until heaven." Um members of our church until heaven." Um members of our church until heaven." Um and that's okay with me. Like it's okay and that's okay with me. Like it's okay and that's okay with me. Like it's okay with me the fact that I That doesn't with me the fact that I That doesn't with me the fact that I That doesn't mean that I have that we haven't had mean that I have that we haven't had mean that I have that we haven't had impact on each other's lives. That impact on each other's lives. That impact on each other's lives. That doesn't mean we haven't done life doesn't mean we haven't done life doesn't mean we haven't done life together. That doesn't mean that I don't together. That doesn't mean that I don't together. That doesn't mean that I don't care deeply for them. That doesn't mean care deeply for them. That doesn't mean care deeply for them. That doesn't mean I don't know their stories. That doesn't I don't know their stories. That doesn't I don't know their stories. That doesn't mean we haven't done ministry together. mean we haven't done ministry together. mean we haven't done ministry together. That doesn't mean we haven't impacted That doesn't mean we haven't impacted That doesn't mean we haven't impacted the kingdom together. Um all of those the kingdom together. Um all of those the kingdom together. Um all of those things are still true even if we haven't things are still true even if we haven't things are still true even if we haven't physically gathered together.

physically gathered together. physically gathered together. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Can you give us uh one of those Can you give us uh one of those Can you give us uh one of those life-change stories in sort of the life-change stories in sort of the life-change stories in sort of the two-minute baptismal version that we're two-minute baptismal version that we're two-minute baptismal version that we're used to seeing on video? Like what's one used to seeing on video? Like what's one used to seeing on video? Like what's one or two of the big cases of or two of the big cases of or two of the big cases of transformation that you've seen? transformation that you've seen? transformation that you've seen? Sure. Um I got permission to share this Sure. Um I got permission to share this Sure. Um I got permission to share this once. I'll share you uh JT and once. I'll share you uh JT and once. I'll share you uh JT and Catherine. Um which is their [snorts] Catherine. Um which is their [snorts] Catherine. Um which is their [snorts] screen names, not their real names. But screen names, not their real names. But screen names, not their real names. But um um um uh JT came to our church through the uh JT came to our church through the uh JT came to our church through the podcast community. We actually launched podcast community. We actually launched podcast community. We actually launched the church out of the podcast community. the church out of the podcast community. the church out of the podcast community. I built our planting team out of it. Um I built our planting team out of it. Um I built our planting team out of it. Um and so he came over with that team. When and so he came over with that team. When and so he came over with that team. When he came to us, he's on the edge of he came to us, he's on the edge of he came to us, he's on the edge of divorce. Uh his wife had deconstructed divorce. Uh his wife had deconstructed divorce. Uh his wife had deconstructed um extremely liberal. He had become more um extremely liberal. He had become more um extremely liberal. He had become more right-wing than he was Christian. right-wing than he was Christian. right-wing than he was Christian. Um He self-proclaimed knew that he was Um He self-proclaimed knew that he was Um He self-proclaimed knew that he was drinking too much. Um was just trying to drinking too much. Um was just trying to drinking too much. Um was just trying to prove her wrong. Working a dead-end job prove her wrong. Working a dead-end job prove her wrong. Working a dead-end job uh in a Georgia factory. Um His wife was uh in a Georgia factory. Um His wife was uh in a Georgia factory. Um His wife was in school in school in school trying to figure out life. trying to figure out life. trying to figure out life. He started coming to church. He started He started coming to church. He started He started coming to church. He started attending. He started participating. He attending. He started participating. He attending. He started participating. He joined a small group. Became challenged. joined a small group. Became challenged. joined a small group. Became challenged. Decided to give up drinking, started Decided to give up drinking, started Decided to give up drinking, started working towards getting sober. He working towards getting sober. He working towards getting sober. He alienated himself from some friends and alienated himself from some friends and alienated himself from some friends and communities that were pushing him in a communities that were pushing him in a communities that were pushing him in a very specific direction.

very specific direction. very specific direction. Eventually, he decided to take a season Eventually, he decided to take a season Eventually, he decided to take a season of his life and try to care for his wife of his life and try to care for his wife of his life and try to care for his wife rather than prove her wrong and just see rather than prove her wrong and just see rather than prove her wrong and just see if it changed their relationship. if it changed their relationship. if it changed their relationship. Over time, Catherine became cared for by Over time, Catherine became cared for by Over time, Catherine became cared for by her husband. her husband. her husband. He joined our team, He joined our team, He joined our team, started serving with us, joined a small started serving with us, joined a small started serving with us, joined a small group, was challenged to tithe, began group, was challenged to tithe, began group, was challenged to tithe, began tithing. tithing. tithing. And then, one year, we did a whole And then, one year, we did a whole And then, one year, we did a whole series whole year on things the church series whole year on things the church series whole year on things the church doesn't talk about. We did 13 weeks on doesn't talk about. We did 13 weeks on doesn't talk about. We did 13 weeks on heaven, hell, and the apocalypse. heaven, hell, and the apocalypse. heaven, hell, and the apocalypse. And what we didn't know was that this And what we didn't know was that this And what we didn't know was that this was Catherine's major pain point from was Catherine's major pain point from was Catherine's major pain point from growing up in a church that was a lot of growing up in a church that was a lot of growing up in a church that was a lot of hellfire and brimstone. hellfire and brimstone. hellfire and brimstone. She started list listening over her She started list listening over her She started list listening over her husband's back over shoulder to the husband's back over shoulder to the husband's back over shoulder to the services, mostly because his life had services, mostly because his life had services, mostly because his life had changed and he was treating her changed and he was treating her changed and he was treating her differently. differently. differently. Then, she started engaging in chat. Then, she started engaging in chat. Then, she started engaging in chat. And the first time she engaged in chat, And the first time she engaged in chat, And the first time she engaged in chat, I responded to her by name because I I responded to her by name because I I responded to her by name because I knew who she was. I knew her by her knew who she was. I knew her by her knew who she was. I knew her by her screen name, had memorized her screen screen name, had memorized her screen screen name, had memorized her screen name to her actual name. name to her actual name. name to her actual name. Now, she had been a bit of a difficult Now, she had been a bit of a difficult Now, she had been a bit of a difficult person having our community. She was person having our community. She was person having our community. She was hostile sometimes openly. We'd had hostile sometimes openly. We'd had hostile sometimes openly. We'd had conversations about what that meant for conversations about what that meant for conversations about what that meant for our community and how to protect it, and our community and how to protect it, and our community and how to protect it, and I insisted that we just I insisted that we just I insisted that we just loved on her.

loved on her. loved on her. Loved on her, loved on her. Loved on her, loved on her. Loved on her, loved on her. While she was sitting in her home in While she was sitting in her home in While she was sitting in her home in Georgia, she began to weep weep because Georgia, she began to weep weep because Georgia, she began to weep weep because these people that she had not treated these people that she had not treated these people that she had not treated well knew her name and cared enough to well knew her name and cared enough to well knew her name and cared enough to answer her question. And then, every answer her question. And then, every answer her question. And then, every week she started asking questions, and week she started asking questions, and week she started asking questions, and every week I would sit on the couch and every week I would sit on the couch and every week I would sit on the couch and we would just wrestle through and I we would just wrestle through and I we would just wrestle through and I would answer questions that she had. And would answer questions that she had. And would answer questions that she had. And then, I met met JT for the first time in then, I met met JT for the first time in then, I met met JT for the first time in person. He landed in Pittsburgh, I person. He landed in Pittsburgh, I person. He landed in Pittsburgh, I picked him up, and we went out to picked him up, and we went out to picked him up, and we went out to Origins Game Fair in Columbus, Ohio Origins Game Fair in Columbus, Ohio Origins Game Fair in Columbus, Ohio together to serve with Love Thy Nerd as together to serve with Love Thy Nerd as together to serve with Love Thy Nerd as a mission partner there. a mission partner there. a mission partner there. And that week, while we were there on And that week, while we were there on And that week, while we were there on Wednesday night, his wife showed up to Wednesday night, his wife showed up to Wednesday night, his wife showed up to church without him. church without him. church without him. Couple weeks later, we went into a Couple weeks later, we went into a Couple weeks later, we went into a series uh on discipleship, and we were series uh on discipleship, and we were series uh on discipleship, and we were looking at practicing the way. looking at practicing the way. looking at practicing the way. The first night of that series, they got The first night of that series, they got The first night of that series, they got done watching church and his wife came done watching church and his wife came done watching church and his wife came to him and said, "Hey, to him and said, "Hey, to him and said, "Hey, JT, I uh uh JT, I uh uh JT, I uh uh I don't think I've ever actually tried I don't think I've ever actually tried I don't think I've ever actually tried following Jesus. following Jesus. following Jesus. And I'd like to." And I'd like to." And I'd like to." And that night they kneeled beside bed And that night they kneeled beside bed And that night they kneeled beside bed together and they prayed and she together and they prayed and she together and they prayed and she accepted Jesus and came back to faith. accepted Jesus and came back to faith. accepted Jesus and came back to faith. She now serves on our our prayer team. She now serves on our our prayer team. She now serves on our our prayer team. He serves uh on our commands team and a He serves uh on our commands team and a He serves uh on our commands team and a couple of others. They are each couple of others. They are each couple of others. They are each individually in a small group and then individually in a small group and then individually in a small group and then they're collectively in a couple's small they're collectively in a couple's small they're collectively in a couple's small group where they're being discipled by group where they're being discipled by group where they're being discipled by our community discipleship pastor and our community discipleship pastor and our community discipleship pastor and his wife.

his wife. his wife. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> James serves alongside me in my men's >> James serves alongside me in my men's >> James serves alongside me in my men's ministry as well and we have seen their ministry as well and we have seen their ministry as well and we have seen their life life life radically changed. If you look at uh Doc radically changed. If you look at uh Doc radically changed. If you look at uh Doc and Tell, Corey and Chantel, couple I and Tell, Corey and Chantel, couple I and Tell, Corey and Chantel, couple I had mentioned before in Wisconsin, two had mentioned before in Wisconsin, two had mentioned before in Wisconsin, two boys, one on the way. They had left the boys, one on the way. They had left the boys, one on the way. They had left the church. Uh Corey was a scientist. He church. Uh Corey was a scientist. He church. Uh Corey was a scientist. He believed in God but wasn't actively believed in God but wasn't actively believed in God but wasn't actively participating. Uh Chantel would tell you participating. Uh Chantel would tell you participating. Uh Chantel would tell you she had never really heard him pray she had never really heard him pray she had never really heard him pray before. before. before. Came to our church, joined our planting Came to our church, joined our planting Came to our church, joined our planting team, began to get into a small group, team, began to get into a small group, team, began to get into a small group, started getting discipled, joined our started getting discipled, joined our started getting discipled, joined our prayer team. Now, first time I met him prayer team. Now, first time I met him prayer team. Now, first time I met him was getting off a plane in Pittsburgh was getting off a plane in Pittsburgh was getting off a plane in Pittsburgh and the next day we got on a plane in DC and the next day we got on a plane in DC and the next day we got on a plane in DC and flew to Africa for 2 weeks together. and flew to Africa for 2 weeks together. and flew to Africa for 2 weeks together. But I picked him up in Pittsburgh and it But I picked him up in Pittsburgh and it But I picked him up in Pittsburgh and it was like we had been friends for 2 years was like we had been friends for 2 years was like we had been friends for 2 years because we had been friends for 2 years. because we had been friends for 2 years. because we had been friends for 2 years. Now, not only does he pray and lead his Now, not only does he pray and lead his Now, not only does he pray and lead his family, his two boys with one on the family, his two boys with one on the family, his two boys with one on the way, but he also is one of members of way, but he also is one of members of way, but he also is one of members of our prayer team and he actively leads our prayer team and he actively leads our prayer team and he actively leads prayer live during our services once a prayer live during our services once a prayer live during our services once a month. He's been serving on our elders month. He's been serving on our elders month. He's been serving on our elders board for the past 2 years and leads our board for the past 2 years and leads our board for the past 2 years and leads our church and helps us make decisions about church and helps us make decisions about church and helps us make decisions about our future. And so these aren't like our future. And so these aren't like our future. And so these aren't like These are These are the stories that any These are These are the stories that any These are These are the stories that any church would celebrate. Any church would church would celebrate. Any church would church would celebrate. Any church would celebrate these stories. The fact that celebrate these stories. The fact that celebrate these stories. The fact that we haven't met with these people before, we haven't met with these people before, we haven't met with these people before, I've never met Catherine in person, I've I've never met Catherine in person, I've I've never met Catherine in person, I've never met Chantel in person. I've only never met Chantel in person. I've only never met Chantel in person. I've only ever met JT once and I've been in Africa ever met JT once and I've been in Africa ever met JT once and I've been in Africa twice with Corey. It's the only times twice with Corey. It's the only times twice with Corey. It's the only times I've ever been with them in person. But I've ever been with them in person. But I've ever been with them in person. But their lives have been radically their lives have been radically their lives have been radically transformed and they would tell you they transformed and they would tell you they transformed and they would tell you they have been.

have been. have been. You mentioned serving opportunities, You mentioned serving opportunities, You mentioned serving opportunities, couple of new phrases, command team. couple of new phrases, command team. couple of new phrases, command team. What are some of the unique like prayer What are some of the unique like prayer What are some of the unique like prayer team I think we all kind of get. Okay, team I think we all kind of get. Okay, team I think we all kind of get. Okay, we get it, right? Or if someone's we get it, right? Or if someone's we get it, right? Or if someone's helping you out with some of the tech or helping you out with some of the tech or helping you out with some of the tech or logistics or welcome admin. What are logistics or welcome admin. What are logistics or welcome admin. What are some of the unique serving opportunities some of the unique serving opportunities some of the unique serving opportunities you've got at Lux Church? you've got at Lux Church? you've got at Lux Church? Yeah, so all of our teams actually look Yeah, so all of our teams actually look Yeah, so all of our teams actually look just a little bit different. So like our just a little bit different. So like our just a little bit different. So like our welcome team for example, every person welcome team for example, every person welcome team for example, every person who joins our Discord server gets who joins our Discord server gets who joins our Discord server gets usually a video message from a member of usually a video message from a member of usually a video message from a member of our welcome team within about 24 to 48 our welcome team within about 24 to 48 our welcome team within about 24 to 48 hours in a DM welcoming you to our hours in a DM welcoming you to our hours in a DM welcoming you to our community and offering to help them work community and offering to help them work community and offering to help them work their way in. We have a team called the their way in. We have a team called the their way in. We have a team called the Vanguard and they're just people who Vanguard and they're just people who Vanguard and they're just people who help vet new people who are trying to help vet new people who are trying to help vet new people who are trying to join our teams and they just walk them join our teams and they just walk them join our teams and they just walk them through the process and the trainings on through the process and the trainings on through the process and the trainings on coming on to our teams and their job is coming on to our teams and their job is coming on to our teams and their job is to guard the culture of our church to guard the culture of our church to guard the culture of our church alongside of me. alongside of me. alongside of me. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Um >> Um >> Um Our worship team looks way different Our worship team looks way different Our worship team looks way different than a normal worship team because they than a normal worship team because they than a normal worship team because they can't do it live and so our creative can't do it live and so our creative can't do it live and so our creative pastor Andy Mage, he sends out click pastor Andy Mage, he sends out click pastor Andy Mage, he sends out click tracks and uh vocal tracks to all of our tracks and uh vocal tracks to all of our tracks and uh vocal tracks to all of our our uh musicians and our artists or our uh musicians and our artists or our uh musicians and our artists or singers, they all record separately and singers, they all record separately and singers, they all record separately and send them all back to him and then he send them all back to him and then he send them all back to him and then he pieces them together both in video and pieces them together both in video and pieces them together both in video and audio and releases worship tracks that audio and releases worship tracks that audio and releases worship tracks that we use as part of our live worship we use as part of our live worship we use as part of our live worship service so that the members of our service so that the members of our service so that the members of our worship team can use their skills, worship team can use their skills, worship team can use their skills, gifts, and abilities in order to lead gifts, and abilities in order to lead gifts, and abilities in order to lead worship even if they don't live close worship even if they don't live close worship even if they don't live close enough to our Pennsylvania studio in enough to our Pennsylvania studio in enough to our Pennsylvania studio in order to do that. Um our commands team, order to do that. Um our commands team, order to do that. Um our commands team, these are people who are they're helping these are people who are they're helping these are people who are they're helping during our live services on Wednesday during our live services on Wednesday during our live services on Wednesday nights in Twitch. There's a way to set nights in Twitch. There's a way to set nights in Twitch. There's a way to set up so that if you hit {exclamation up so that if you hit {exclamation up so that if you hit {exclamation point} and then type a specific word, it point} and then type a specific word, it point} and then type a specific word, it will immediately respond with a specific will immediately respond with a specific will immediately respond with a specific prompt. And so if it's {exclamation

prompt. And so if it's {exclamation prompt. And so if it's {exclamation point} prayer in our chat for example, point} prayer in our chat for example, point} prayer in our chat for example, it'll respond by saying, "Hey, if you it'll respond by saying, "Hey, if you it'll respond by saying, "Hey, if you raise [clears throat] your prayer raise [clears throat] your prayer raise [clears throat] your prayer concerns in chat, we'll pray for you concerns in chat, we'll pray for you concerns in chat, we'll pray for you live tonight, but if you have a private live tonight, but if you have a private live tonight, but if you have a private prayer concern, here's a link to our prayer concern, here's a link to our prayer concern, here's a link to our website that you can raise a private website that you can raise a private website that you can raise a private prayer concern that just goes to our prayer concern that just goes to our prayer concern that just goes to our prayer team and our pastors." prayer team and our pastors." prayer team and our pastors." Or you know, we change our commands out Or you know, we change our commands out Or you know, we change our commands out every week and then we send a list of every week and then we send a list of every week and then we send a list of them to our commands team. We have a them to our commands team. We have a them to our commands team. We have a Twitch mod team and their job is to kick Twitch mod team and their job is to kick Twitch mod team and their job is to kick or ban or time out people who are being or ban or time out people who are being or ban or time out people who are being disruptive or who are they're just a disruptive or who are they're just a disruptive or who are they're just a troll us on a Wednesday night. And so we troll us on a Wednesday night. And so we troll us on a Wednesday night. And so we have a a of the same teams that you have a a of the same teams that you have a a of the same teams that you would expect. They just function would expect. They just function would expect. They just function differently and they same skills, differently and they same skills, differently and they same skills, different tools. different tools. different tools. Hm. Hm. Hm. I think I have my notes that you became I think I have my notes that you became I think I have my notes that you became self-funding pretty early on. self-funding pretty early on. self-funding pretty early on. Um you know, new venture, digital space. Um you know, new venture, digital space. Um you know, new venture, digital space. Do you want to talk a little bit about Do you want to talk a little bit about Do you want to talk a little bit about the journey to sustainability, Mark? the journey to sustainability, Mark? the journey to sustainability, Mark? Yeah. Can I I don't I don't know what I Yeah. Can I I don't I don't know what I Yeah. Can I I don't I don't know what I don't know what the working definition don't know what the working definition don't know what the working definition of sustainability is for church of sustainability is for church of sustainability is for church planners. I feel like you're sustainable planners. I feel like you're sustainable planners. I feel like you're sustainable one week and then you're not the next. one week and then you're not the next. one week and then you're not the next. Um you know, I'm not I'm not really sure Um you know, I'm not I'm not really sure Um you know, I'm not I'm not really sure what that means. But at the base level what that means. But at the base level what that means. But at the base level what it means is that at some point in what it means is that at some point in what it means is that at some point in 2023 with the ties and offerings that 2023 with the ties and offerings that 2023 with the ties and offerings that were coming into our church, we have were coming into our church, we have were coming into our church, we have could could have continued to function could could have continued to function could could have continued to function with me on staff and a couple of with me on staff and a couple of with me on staff and a couple of part-time people. And so the working part-time people. And so the working part-time people. And so the working version of our church in 2023 was version of our church in 2023 was version of our church in 2023 was sustainable. The working version of our sustainable. The working version of our sustainable. The working version of our church in 2024 was not. The working church in 2024 was not. The working church in 2024 was not. The working version of our church in 2025 it kind of version of our church in 2025 it kind of version of our church in 2025 it kind of was again. Um and so we've had a couple was again. Um and so we've had a couple was again. Um and so we've had a couple of different streams of income that have of different streams of income that have of different streams of income that have come in from like, you know, going out come in from like, you know, going out come in from like, you know, going out and fundraising like any other church and fundraising like any other church and fundraising like any other church planner would. So I raised a couple planner would. So I raised a couple planner would. So I raised a couple hundred thousand dollars as a church hundred thousand dollars as a church hundred thousand dollars as a church planter uh just to make sure that we

planter uh just to make sure that we planter uh just to make sure that we could cover all of our bases, build our could cover all of our bases, build our could cover all of our bases, build our first studio, do that sort of stuff. But first studio, do that sort of stuff. But first studio, do that sort of stuff. But you know what? Once again, it's the you know what? Once again, it's the you know what? Once again, it's the same. It's the same as any other church. same. It's the same as any other church. same. It's the same as any other church. How do you get people to got to give and How do you get people to got to give and How do you get people to got to give and to tithe? You build relationships with to tithe? You build relationships with to tithe? You build relationships with them, right? You invest in their lives. them, right? You invest in their lives. them, right? You invest in their lives. You get to know them deeply. You know You get to know them deeply. You know You get to know them deeply. You know their families. You baptize their their families. You baptize their their families. You baptize their children. You do their weddings, right? children. You do their weddings, right? children. You do their weddings, right? All of the things that you would see and All of the things that you would see and All of the things that you would see and people will get invested and then they people will get invested and then they people will get invested and then they want to see the church grow. You cast a want to see the church grow. You cast a want to see the church grow. You cast a compelling vision. You bring people in compelling vision. You bring people in compelling vision. You bring people in in vision team meetings where you tell in vision team meetings where you tell in vision team meetings where you tell them where you're headed next. You do them where you're headed next. You do them where you're headed next. You do all of the things that you would do in all of the things that you would do in all of the things that you would do in any other church. I think that the thing any other church. I think that the thing any other church. I think that the thing is a lot of the church thinks that is a lot of the church thinks that is a lot of the church thinks that digital is this like foreign entity that digital is this like foreign entity that digital is this like foreign entity that is so different. It's not because the is so different. It's not because the is so different. It's not because the church is people. The church is just church is people. The church is just church is people. The church is just people and people are the same whether people and people are the same whether people and people are the same whether they're gathering in your building or they're gathering in your building or they're gathering in your building or they're gathering online. And so for us they're gathering online. And so for us they're gathering online. And so for us like it's just like no, we just do the like it's just like no, we just do the like it's just like no, we just do the same things. Once again, same skills. same things. Once again, same skills. same things. Once again, same skills. They're just re-tooled. They're just re-tooled. They're just re-tooled. In what way you've talked about the In what way you've talked about the In what way you've talked about the strength of digital relationships. We've strength of digital relationships. We've strength of digital relationships. We've had Nicky Gumbel on this podcast before had Nicky Gumbel on this podcast before had Nicky Gumbel on this podcast before and he was talking about doing Alpha and he was talking about doing Alpha and he was talking about doing Alpha online, which they never did prior to online, which they never did prior to online, which they never did prior to COVID. Yeah. And he was shocked at how COVID. Yeah. And he was shocked at how COVID. Yeah. And he was shocked at how deep people went quickly, maybe more deep people went quickly, maybe more deep people went quickly, maybe more quickly quickly quickly than they would in real life. How deep than they would in real life. How deep than they would in real life. How deep do the relationships go that you're do the relationships go that you're do the relationships go that you're seeing through Lux Church?

seeing through Lux Church? seeing through Lux Church? Yeah, I I have developed deeper Yeah, I I have developed deeper Yeah, I I have developed deeper relationships faster at Lux than ever relationships faster at Lux than ever relationships faster at Lux than ever before in physical ministry. I mean, before in physical ministry. I mean, before in physical ministry. I mean, it's it's it's it is it is staggering how quickly it is it is staggering how quickly it is it is staggering how quickly people will step into a call and tell people will step into a call and tell people will step into a call and tell you everything about their life. Mhm. On you everything about their life. Mhm. On you everything about their life. Mhm. On your first meeting with them. Some ways your first meeting with them. Some ways your first meeting with them. Some ways it's like almost like oversharing. Like, it's like almost like oversharing. Like, it's like almost like oversharing. Like, "Hey, like you you should probably be a "Hey, like you you should probably be a "Hey, like you you should probably be a little careful. I am a person on the little careful. I am a person on the little careful. I am a person on the internet." But they they do just tend internet." But they they do just tend internet." But they they do just tend they do tend to trust you. they do tend to trust you. they do tend to trust you. And then people are just Well, And then people are just Well, And then people are just Well, indigenous natives are really honest, indigenous natives are really honest, indigenous natives are really honest, right? Like they have relationships right? Like they have relationships right? Like they have relationships here. They've already developed here. They've already developed here. They've already developed friendships here. They don't think friendships here. They don't think friendships here. They don't think there's a boogeyman. Like they are aware there's a boogeyman. Like they are aware there's a boogeyman. Like they are aware of him, but they also know how to of him, but they also know how to of him, but they also know how to navigate it really well. So, and so for navigate it really well. So, and so for navigate it really well. So, and so for for us, yeah, relationships develop for us, yeah, relationships develop for us, yeah, relationships develop very, very rapidly and can get deep very, very rapidly and can get deep very, very rapidly and can get deep very, very quickly very, very quickly very, very quickly online. In fact, I have found it easier online. In fact, I have found it easier online. In fact, I have found it easier to build relationships digitally as long to build relationships digitally as long to build relationships digitally as long as you're intentional about it than I as you're intentional about it than I as you're intentional about it than I ever was able to physically. Mhm. ever was able to physically. Mhm. ever was able to physically. Mhm. Um Um Um I want to go back and put your dad hat I want to go back and put your dad hat I want to go back and put your dad hat on. You said something that really on. You said something that really on. You said something that really caught my interest when you were talking caught my interest when you were talking caught my interest when you were talking about your daughters. You said their about your daughters. You said their about your daughters. You said their identity is being formed identity is being formed identity is being formed at the same time in real life as it's at the same time in real life as it's at the same time in real life as it's being shaped by the YouTube algorithm.

being shaped by the YouTube algorithm. being shaped by the YouTube algorithm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did I get that right? I said that they Did I get that right? I said that they Did I get that right? I said that they are learning who they are as the YouTube are learning who they are as the YouTube are learning who they are as the YouTube algorithm is learning who they are. algorithm is learning who they are. algorithm is learning who they are. Right. Right. Right. That's a really deep observation. That's a really deep observation. That's a really deep observation. You know, algorithm forming us. One of You know, algorithm forming us. One of You know, algorithm forming us. One of the arguments I'm sort of making this the arguments I'm sort of making this the arguments I'm sort of making this year is the reason it's so hard to be a year is the reason it's so hard to be a year is the reason it's so hard to be a pastor right now is because we're all pastor right now is because we're all pastor right now is because we're all being discipled by the algorithm. Hat being discipled by the algorithm. Hat being discipled by the algorithm. Hat tip to J.D. Greear for that insight. And tip to J.D. Greear for that insight. And tip to J.D. Greear for that insight. And I think that's very, very true, but I think that's very, very true, but I think that's very, very true, but how much of that, like just what's your how much of that, like just what's your how much of that, like just what's your perspective about that as a dad? As you perspective about that as a dad? As you perspective about that as a dad? As you I know, you know, your daughters were I know, you know, your daughters were I know, you know, your daughters were born born born um in the 2010s or the 2020s, and so um in the 2010s or the 2020s, and so um in the 2010s or the 2020s, and so inevitably this is forming them just inevitably this is forming them just inevitably this is forming them just like TV formed my generation or etc. like TV formed my generation or etc. like TV formed my generation or etc. etc. But what do you think that is etc. But what do you think that is etc. But what do you think that is doing? doing? doing? Positively and negatively. Well, I don't think anybody knows yet. Well, I don't think anybody knows yet. Um just as much as nobody knew what the Um just as much as nobody knew what the Um just as much as nobody knew what the internet was doing to my brain as a internet was doing to my brain as a internet was doing to my brain as a millennial. Um millennial. Um millennial. Um Uh I would say this. Uh I would say this. Uh I would say this. I'm cau- I'm cautiously really I'm cau- I'm cautiously really I'm cau- I'm cautiously really optimistic optimistic optimistic about my daughter's capability of about my daughter's capability of about my daughter's capability of navigating this digital world.

navigating this digital world. navigating this digital world. Um Um Um My my experience is that the internet, My my experience is that the internet, My my experience is that the internet, this is going to be controversial. Um this is going to be controversial. Um this is going to be controversial. Um the internet has not ruined younger the internet has not ruined younger the internet has not ruined younger generations. generations. generations. They know how to navigate it. Right now, They know how to navigate it. Right now, They know how to navigate it. Right now, the internet and social media is ruining the internet and social media is ruining the internet and social media is ruining past generations. past generations. past generations. People who don't know how to identify if People who don't know how to identify if People who don't know how to identify if something is AI, people who don't know something is AI, people who don't know something is AI, people who don't know how to determine if something is real or how to determine if something is real or how to determine if something is real or fake. There is a reason why scammers do fake. There is a reason why scammers do fake. There is a reason why scammers do not target kids. not target kids. not target kids. Uh they the people who are scamming Uh they the people who are scamming Uh they the people who are scamming predominantly target people who are predominantly target people who are predominantly target people who are elderly. elderly. elderly. Because they didn't grow up in the Because they didn't grow up in the Because they didn't grow up in the digital world, they don't know how to digital world, they don't know how to digital world, they don't know how to navigate it, and they don't know how to navigate it, and they don't know how to navigate it, and they don't know how to discern it well. discern it well. discern it well. I believe that my daughters will be I believe that my daughters will be I believe that my daughters will be better at discerning it than I will be. better at discerning it than I will be. better at discerning it than I will be. I think they'll be able to navigate it I think they'll be able to navigate it I think they'll be able to navigate it far more efficiently than I will be able far more efficiently than I will be able far more efficiently than I will be able to navigate it. I think they'll walk to navigate it. I think they'll walk to navigate it. I think they'll walk between it seamlessly where I have to be between it seamlessly where I have to be between it seamlessly where I have to be intentional in the way in which I walk intentional in the way in which I walk intentional in the way in which I walk between it. I think they will actually between it. I think they will actually between it. I think they will actually be healthier than I was as somebody who be healthier than I was as somebody who be healthier than I was as somebody who had to adopt it. I I don't know if you had to adopt it. I I don't know if you had to adopt it. I I don't know if you uh have seen uh have seen uh have seen I think it's the third Batman movie I think it's the third Batman movie I think it's the third Batman movie um where uh Bane talks about how Batman um where uh Bane talks about how Batman um where uh Bane talks about how Batman adopted the dark and how he was born in adopted the dark and how he was born in adopted the dark and how he was born in it. In some ways I've adopted the dark.

it. In some ways I've adopted the dark. it. In some ways I've adopted the dark. Um I love it. I've enjoyed being part of Um I love it. I've enjoyed being part of Um I love it. I've enjoyed being part of this world and it's definitely this world and it's definitely this world and it's definitely life-giving to me. I've seen God do life-giving to me. I've seen God do life-giving to me. I've seen God do miraculous and amazing things in it. miraculous and amazing things in it. miraculous and amazing things in it. But my daughters were born in it. But my daughters were born in it. But my daughters were born in it. They live and breathe it. They're a fish They live and breathe it. They're a fish They live and breathe it. They're a fish in water. They don't know anything in water. They don't know anything in water. They don't know anything different. And they will probably different. And they will probably different. And they will probably short of a world war, never know short of a world war, never know short of a world war, never know anything different. anything different. anything different. And so I'm cautiously optimistic about And so I'm cautiously optimistic about And so I'm cautiously optimistic about their capability of navigating that in a their capability of navigating that in a their capability of navigating that in a really healthy way. I think they'll really healthy way. I think they'll really healthy way. I think they'll actually be less prone to compare actually be less prone to compare actually be less prone to compare themselves on social media. I think themselves on social media. I think themselves on social media. I think they'll be more prone to build genuine, they'll be more prone to build genuine, they'll be more prone to build genuine, deep, life-giving relationships. deep, life-giving relationships. deep, life-giving relationships. I've never heard that take before. That I've never heard that take before. That I've never heard that take before. That is really interesting and definitely a is really interesting and definitely a is really interesting and definitely a hot take, Mark. Definitely a hot take. hot take, Mark. Definitely a hot take. hot take, Mark. Definitely a hot take. >> lot of doomsaying around the internet >> lot of doomsaying around the internet >> lot of doomsaying around the internet and emerging generations. And I think we and emerging generations. And I think we and emerging generations. And I think we have to be really intentional. I'm super have to be really intentional. I'm super have to be really intentional. I'm super intentional with having conversations intentional with having conversations intentional with having conversations with my kids about the worlds that with my kids about the worlds that with my kids about the worlds that they're observing and about the worlds they're observing and about the worlds they're observing and about the worlds that they're participating in. that they're participating in. that they're participating in. So when you compare and I I don't want So when you compare and I I don't want So when you compare and I I don't want to pick on your daughters, but I take it to pick on your daughters, but I take it to pick on your daughters, but I take it they have a ton of friends and so you're they have a ton of friends and so you're they have a ton of friends and so you're getting a a nice sample of how how old getting a a nice sample of how how old getting a a nice sample of how how old are your girls? Uh, eight and six right are your girls? Uh, eight and six right are your girls? Uh, eight and six right now.

now. now. >> Eight and six, okay. So you're getting a >> Eight and six, okay. So you're getting a >> Eight and six, okay. So you're getting a a good sample of other eight and a good sample of other eight and a good sample of other eight and six-year-olds through their friends and six-year-olds through their friends and six-year-olds through their friends and family members, etc. But when you think family members, etc. But when you think family members, etc. But when you think about your childhood and how kids were about your childhood and how kids were about your childhood and how kids were adjusted, adjusted, adjusted, you know, 25 years ago and how your you know, 25 years ago and how your you know, 25 years ago and how your daughters are adjusting relationally, daughters are adjusting relationally, daughters are adjusting relationally, what are the similarities and what are the similarities and what are the similarities and differences you notice? Um, that's an interesting that's Um, that's an interesting that's something I've not really pondered, something I've not really pondered, something I've not really pondered, honestly. Um, honestly. Um, honestly. Um, well certainly, right? It And I think well certainly, right? It And I think well certainly, right? It And I think every kid is unique and so that is every kid is unique and so that is every kid is unique and so that is challenging. I think there's a certain challenging. I think there's a certain challenging. I think there's a certain amount of socialization challenges. amount of socialization challenges. amount of socialization challenges. Um, and I think that is in part due to Um, and I think that is in part due to Um, and I think that is in part due to access to the internet. Um, but I don't access to the internet. Um, but I don't access to the internet. Um, but I don't think it's entirely because of access to think it's entirely because of access to think it's entirely because of access to the internet. I think it's also the internet. I think it's also the internet. I think it's also culturally because we have become more culturally because we have become more culturally because we have become more aware as parents of dangers and we've aware as parents of dangers and we've aware as parents of dangers and we've become more guarded with our kids. And become more guarded with our kids. And become more guarded with our kids. And so therefore our kids have less ability so therefore our kids have less ability so therefore our kids have less ability and an opportunity to interact. Um and an opportunity to interact. Um and an opportunity to interact. Um Hence, Jonathan Haidt's work, yeah. Hence, Jonathan Haidt's work, yeah. Hence, Jonathan Haidt's work, yeah. Yeah, and so you know, one of the things Yeah, and so you know, one of the things Yeah, and so you know, one of the things that I just like just real practically that I just like just real practically that I just like just real practically like this is not as a pastor, this is like this is not as a pastor, this is like this is not as a pastor, this is just as dad, right? Like love my just as dad, right? Like love my just as dad, right? Like love my daughter, my 8-year-old is a really daughter, my 8-year-old is a really daughter, my 8-year-old is a really anxious kid. She has been since the day anxious kid. She has been since the day anxious kid. She has been since the day she was born.

she was born. she was born. And like And like And like my wife Jen and I like one of the things my wife Jen and I like one of the things my wife Jen and I like one of the things that we do is we just have to challenge that we do is we just have to challenge that we do is we just have to challenge her. Like her. Like her. Like honey, things can be scary honey, things can be scary honey, things can be scary and even if they're scary, you can still and even if they're scary, you can still and even if they're scary, you can still do them. do them. do them. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Um and so like we've had to really >> Yeah. Um and so like we've had to really >> Yeah. Um and so like we've had to really challenge her and push her to do things challenge her and push her to do things challenge her and push her to do things that are scary because she needs to know that are scary because she needs to know that are scary because she needs to know that even when something is scary, you that even when something is scary, you that even when something is scary, you can still do that thing. And so I I do can still do that thing. And so I I do can still do that thing. And so I I do think that it takes a guided hand in think that it takes a guided hand in think that it takes a guided hand in parenting, but it's certainly man, parenting, but it's certainly man, parenting, but it's certainly man, especially when it comes to our kids' especially when it comes to our kids' especially when it comes to our kids' digital footprints. I think we need to digital footprints. I think we need to digital footprints. I think we need to protect them. I think that we need to be protect them. I think that we need to be protect them. I think that we need to be careful. My kids aren't running rampant careful. My kids aren't running rampant careful. My kids aren't running rampant on roadblocks without any supervision. on roadblocks without any supervision. on roadblocks without any supervision. They don't even have roadblocks, right? They don't even have roadblocks, right? They don't even have roadblocks, right? I don't think I don't think that we I don't think I don't think that we I don't think I don't think that we should lack wisdom or lack discernment. should lack wisdom or lack discernment. should lack wisdom or lack discernment. I'm not encouraging that in any way, I'm not encouraging that in any way, I'm not encouraging that in any way, shape or form. I'm not saying that kids shape or form. I'm not saying that kids shape or form. I'm not saying that kids should just be able to run rampant on should just be able to run rampant on should just be able to run rampant on the internet. that's extremely unwise. I the internet. that's extremely unwise. I the internet. that's extremely unwise. I think they need guidance. Um I think I I think they need guidance. Um I think I I think they need guidance. Um I think I I saw uh I can't remember what I read. It saw uh I can't remember what I read. It saw uh I can't remember what I read. It was a a comparison and I I wish that I was a a comparison and I I wish that I was a a comparison and I I wish that I remembered it so you could source it, remembered it so you could source it, remembered it so you could source it, but I don't remember exactly where it but I don't remember exactly where it but I don't remember exactly where it came from. Um but the idea was oh, it's came from. Um but the idea was oh, it's came from. Um but the idea was oh, it's actually my friend Bubba from Love Thy actually my friend Bubba from Love Thy actually my friend Bubba from Love Thy Nerd. Um that if you just put a group of Nerd. Um that if you just put a group of Nerd. Um that if you just put a group of kids in a field and gave them a kids in a field and gave them a kids in a field and gave them a football, there would be anarchy. Things football, there would be anarchy. Things football, there would be anarchy. Things would get broken, kids would get hurt.

would get broken, kids would get hurt. would get broken, kids would get hurt. That's just reality. What What happens That's just reality. What What happens That's just reality. What What happens though when you apply adults and wisdom though when you apply adults and wisdom though when you apply adults and wisdom and discernment to the situation is you and discernment to the situation is you and discernment to the situation is you can develop a really awesome football can develop a really awesome football can develop a really awesome football team. team. team. Because they're able to give discipline Because they're able to give discipline Because they're able to give discipline and direction. and direction. and direction. If we allow our kids to just get If we allow our kids to just get If we allow our kids to just get together with other kids on the internet together with other kids on the internet together with other kids on the internet and run rampant and do whatever they and run rampant and do whatever they and run rampant and do whatever they want, we should not be surprised when want, we should not be surprised when want, we should not be surprised when people and things get broken. people and things get broken. people and things get broken. If we as adults are not actively engaged If we as adults are not actively engaged If we as adults are not actively engaged in the discernment process to help them in the discernment process to help them in the discernment process to help them with in in wise ways be able to navigate with in in wise ways be able to navigate with in in wise ways be able to navigate it. And the wise way to navigate it is it. And the wise way to navigate it is it. And the wise way to navigate it is not take it all away and you don't have not take it all away and you don't have not take it all away and you don't have any opportunity to engage with it any opportunity to engage with it any opportunity to engage with it because it's not going away. They need because it's not going away. They need because it's not going away. They need to learn how to navigate it and walk in to learn how to navigate it and walk in to learn how to navigate it and walk in it and they will eventually be better at it and they will eventually be better at it and they will eventually be better at it than I am. Just the ways that I am it than I am. Just the ways that I am it than I am. Just the ways that I am better at walking in those worlds than better at walking in those worlds than better at walking in those worlds than my parents are. And the same way that my my parents are. And the same way that my my parents are. And the same way that my parents are better at walking in those parents are better at walking in those parents are better at walking in those worlds than my grandparents are. So I worlds than my grandparents are. So I worlds than my grandparents are. So I think the thing that really hit me think the thing that really hit me think the thing that really hit me is every generation gets formed by is every generation gets formed by is every generation gets formed by something, right? Like if you think something, right? Like if you think something, right? Like if you think about it, Mark, uh the Great Depression about it, Mark, uh the Great Depression about it, Mark, uh the Great Depression formed some people. I'm old enough to formed some people. I'm old enough to formed some people. I'm old enough to remember people who lived through the remember people who lived through the remember people who lived through the Depression and they didn't waste a Depression and they didn't waste a Depression and they didn't waste a thing. World War II shaped people.

thing. World War II shaped people. thing. World War II shaped people. Uh Vietnam War shaped people. Uh Vietnam War shaped people. Uh Vietnam War shaped people. Industrialization shaped people. Like a Industrialization shaped people. Like a Industrialization shaped people. Like a lot of people get shaped by different lot of people get shaped by different lot of people get shaped by different things. And what you said, do we know things. And what you said, do we know things. And what you said, do we know what's really going on with the next what's really going on with the next what's really going on with the next generation? The answer is we don't. We generation? The answer is we don't. We generation? The answer is we don't. We really don't know, but we're going to really don't know, but we're going to really don't know, but we're going to find out, right? In the same way that find out, right? In the same way that find out, right? In the same way that social media had a lot of unintended social media had a lot of unintended social media had a lot of unintended consequences. Maybe you're right. Maybe consequences. Maybe you're right. Maybe consequences. Maybe you're right. Maybe it's going to get better with Generation it's going to get better with Generation it's going to get better with Generation Alpha and beyond. Alpha and beyond. Alpha and beyond. Generation Beta. Generation Beta. Generation Beta. Um what can church leaders who Um what can church leaders who Um what can church leaders who lead a more traditional church, the kind lead a more traditional church, the kind lead a more traditional church, the kind of church you used to lead, what can of church you used to lead, what can of church you used to lead, what can they learn from Lux Church and your they learn from Lux Church and your they learn from Lux Church and your experience? What do we need to do experience? What do we need to do experience? What do we need to do better? What do we need to do better? What do we need to do better? What do we need to do differently? differently? differently? Well, actually I just wrote an article. Well, actually I just wrote an article. Well, actually I just wrote an article. The last article that I wrote for The last article that I wrote for The last article that I wrote for Exponential was called Surviving the Exponential was called Surviving the Exponential was called Surviving the Upside Down, A Pastor's Confession. And Upside Down, A Pastor's Confession. And Upside Down, A Pastor's Confession. And I compared what we've done for the last I compared what we've done for the last I compared what we've done for the last 5 years to living in the Upside Down 5 years to living in the Upside Down 5 years to living in the Upside Down from Stranger Things uh cuz my whole from Stranger Things uh cuz my whole from Stranger Things uh cuz my whole church watches Stranger Things. church watches Stranger Things. church watches Stranger Things. And so I I gave a word to pastors who And so I I gave a word to pastors who And so I I gave a word to pastors who feel this feel this feel this uh this pressure. And I I think that's uh this pressure. And I I think that's uh this pressure. And I I think that's pretty universal. And whether that's pretty universal. And whether that's pretty universal. And whether that's because of a podcast episode that they because of a podcast episode that they because of a podcast episode that they listened to, whether that's because of a listened to, whether that's because of a listened to, whether that's because of a pastor had a really good viral moment.

pastor had a really good viral moment. pastor had a really good viral moment. Um whether that's just because they've Um whether that's just because they've Um whether that's just because they've been told that they need to be online. I been told that they need to be online. I been told that they need to be online. I think that every pastor doesn't know think that every pastor doesn't know think that every pastor doesn't know what to do, but they have this sort of what to do, but they have this sort of what to do, but they have this sort of nebulous nebulous nebulous hard to hard to figure out pressure hard to hard to figure out pressure hard to hard to figure out pressure about the internet. And that they need about the internet. And that they need about the internet. And that they need to be doing more there. to be doing more there. to be doing more there. And my heart really has been to help And my heart really has been to help And my heart really has been to help relieve that. Okay. relieve that. Okay. relieve that. Okay. >> Uh, and to say you don't need to be. >> Uh, and to say you don't need to be. >> Uh, and to say you don't need to be. Um, in fact, maybe you shouldn't be. Um, in fact, maybe you shouldn't be. Um, in fact, maybe you shouldn't be. Um, I think there's a lot of churches Um, I think there's a lot of churches Um, I think there's a lot of churches who are doing stuff on the internet that who are doing stuff on the internet that who are doing stuff on the internet that is a waste of their resources right now. is a waste of their resources right now. is a waste of their resources right now. Uh, give us some examples. Uh, give us some examples. Uh, give us some examples. I think there are churches who are I think there are churches who are I think there are churches who are trying to improve and maintain live trying to improve and maintain live trying to improve and maintain live streams and they're trying to streams and they're trying to streams and they're trying to uh, they're trying to get it as best as uh, they're trying to get it as best as uh, they're trying to get it as best as they can possibly get it. And what they they can possibly get it. And what they they can possibly get it. And what they don't realize is that Life Church is one don't realize is that Life Church is one don't realize is that Life Church is one click away. click away. click away. It's not a multi-state drive away. It is It's not a multi-state drive away. It is It's not a multi-state drive away. It is a click away. It's and so they as soon a click away. It's and so they as soon a click away. It's and so they as soon as you put yourself on the internet, you as you put yourself on the internet, you as you put yourself on the internet, you are competing for the attention of are competing for the attention of are competing for the attention of people with Life Church, Elevation, and people with Life Church, Elevation, and people with Life Church, Elevation, and any other church out there that is doing any other church out there that is doing any other church out there that is doing a really freaking good job and has a really freaking good job and has a really freaking good job and has significantly more resources than you.

significantly more resources than you. significantly more resources than you. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> And so for some churches, they don't >> And so for some churches, they don't >> And so for some churches, they don't need to throw their streaming rig away, need to throw their streaming rig away, need to throw their streaming rig away, but their intentionality, like what but their intentionality, like what but their intentionality, like what they're doing needs to change. And they they're doing needs to change. And they they're doing needs to change. And they cannot feel the pressure to do more on cannot feel the pressure to do more on cannot feel the pressure to do more on the internet. They don't need the the internet. They don't need the the internet. They don't need the internet to remain relevant. They don't internet to remain relevant. They don't internet to remain relevant. They don't have to just focus on what it is that have to just focus on what it is that have to just focus on what it is that you're called to focus on. And I want to you're called to focus on. And I want to you're called to focus on. And I want to give you permission to say like, that's give you permission to say like, that's give you permission to say like, that's okay. The internet requires an insane okay. The internet requires an insane okay. The internet requires an insane amount, once again, of intentionality, amount, once again, of intentionality, amount, once again, of intentionality, empathy, time investment. It is not a empathy, time investment. It is not a empathy, time investment. It is not a quick fix. And all of the resources out quick fix. And all of the resources out quick fix. And all of the resources out there that just say, "Hey, we'll get there that just say, "Hey, we'll get there that just say, "Hey, we'll get your stream up quick and that'll be all your stream up quick and that'll be all your stream up quick and that'll be all that you need. You'll be able to assign that you need. You'll be able to assign that you need. You'll be able to assign someone to a chat. They can sit at home someone to a chat. They can sit at home someone to a chat. They can sit at home and do it." All of the quick fixes of and do it." All of the quick fixes of and do it." All of the quick fixes of the internet are absolute bull crap. If the internet are absolute bull crap. If the internet are absolute bull crap. If you want to do genuine and real ministry you want to do genuine and real ministry you want to do genuine and real ministry online, it takes the same, if not more, online, it takes the same, if not more, online, it takes the same, if not more, investment than it would be for you to investment than it would be for you to investment than it would be for you to do it in in person because people remain do it in in person because people remain do it in in person because people remain people whether or they're on the people whether or they're on the people whether or they're on the internet or they're not. So, are you internet or they're not. So, are you internet or they're not. So, are you saying shut down the live stream then saying shut down the live stream then saying shut down the live stream then for most churches or what are you for most churches or what are you for most churches or what are you saying? Invest differently? No, not saying? Invest differently? No, not saying? Invest differently? No, not necessarily. I'm not telling anybody necessarily. I'm not telling anybody necessarily. I'm not telling anybody prescriptively this is what you should prescriptively this is what you should prescriptively this is what you should do, do, do, but I do think I I say this, I don't but I do think I I say this, I don't but I do think I I say this, I don't think there's an answer, an exact answer think there's an answer, an exact answer think there's an answer, an exact answer for every church and what they should be for every church and what they should be for every church and what they should be doing online right now. But COVID killed doing online right now. But COVID killed doing online right now. But COVID killed the time that you could do it without the time that you could do it without the time that you could do it without knowing what you're doing.

knowing what you're doing. knowing what you're doing. Like whatever you're doing, do it Like whatever you're doing, do it Like whatever you're doing, do it intentionally. So I tell church leaders, intentionally. So I tell church leaders, intentionally. So I tell church leaders, I think there's three good models out I think there's three good models out I think there's three good models out there. There's a goods and services there. There's a goods and services there. There's a goods and services model. You're providing an amenity for model. You're providing an amenity for model. You're providing an amenity for your church. There's nothing wrong with your church. There's nothing wrong with your church. There's nothing wrong with that. That's a good thing. Sundays that. That's a good thing. Sundays that. That's a good thing. Sundays aren't sacred anymore in our culture and aren't sacred anymore in our culture and aren't sacred anymore in our culture and having a live stream and a recording of having a live stream and a recording of having a live stream and a recording of your service is a really good thing for your service is a really good thing for your service is a really good thing for your people. There's absolutely nothing your people. There's absolutely nothing your people. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think that's a good wrong with that. I think that's a good wrong with that. I think that's a good thing for you to do. But don't play that thing for you to do. But don't play that thing for you to do. But don't play that off as a church. It's not a church. The off as a church. It's not a church. The off as a church. It's not a church. The bride of Christ is way too sacred for us bride of Christ is way too sacred for us bride of Christ is way too sacred for us to call that church. It's just not. to call that church. It's just not. to call that church. It's just not. Help find Help people find churches. The Help find Help people find churches. The Help find Help people find churches. The moment you make yourself available to moment you make yourself available to moment you make yourself available to the internet, you also make yourself the internet, you also make yourself the internet, you also make yourself available to people in the Philippines. available to people in the Philippines. available to people in the Philippines. And so recognize the fact that if And so recognize the fact that if And so recognize the fact that if people's lives are being impacted, but people's lives are being impacted, but people's lives are being impacted, but you're not giving them the opportunity you're not giving them the opportunity you're not giving them the opportunity to devote themselves to what the church to devote themselves to what the church to devote themselves to what the church is devoting itself to, then you're is devoting itself to, then you're is devoting itself to, then you're giving them the opportunity to consume giving them the opportunity to consume giving them the opportunity to consume content, not be the church. content, not be the church. content, not be the church. So have a strategy in place to help So have a strategy in place to help So have a strategy in place to help people find and get connected to people find and get connected to people find and get connected to churches, a local church. There's churches, a local church. There's churches, a local church. There's broadcast evangelism. It's kind of broadcast evangelism. It's kind of broadcast evangelism. It's kind of replaced TV ministry, right? replaced TV ministry, right? replaced TV ministry, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think there's something >> Yeah. Yeah. I think there's something >> Yeah. Yeah. I think there's something really powerful and good and there really powerful and good and there really powerful and good and there should be churches that are doing that.

should be churches that are doing that. should be churches that are doing that. It's the most expensive model, but it's It's the most expensive model, but it's It's the most expensive model, but it's a really good model. And there's a really good model. And there's a really good model. And there's churches who can do it super effectively churches who can do it super effectively churches who can do it super effectively and reach a lot of people. I don't think and reach a lot of people. I don't think and reach a lot of people. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But there's anything wrong with that. But there's anything wrong with that. But unapologetically be that. If you're not unapologetically be that. If you're not unapologetically be that. If you're not giving them any opportunity to join a giving them any opportunity to join a giving them any opportunity to join a small group, to get invested in small group, to get invested in small group, to get invested in relationships, to be cared for, if you relationships, to be cared for, if you relationships, to be cared for, if you have no way to physically care for their have no way to physically care for their have no way to physically care for their needs, then then help them connect with needs, then then help them connect with needs, then then help them connect with a church instead of just consuming your a church instead of just consuming your a church instead of just consuming your content. Yeah. A lot of the complaints content. Yeah. A lot of the complaints content. Yeah. A lot of the complaints at the church right now is that at the church right now is that at the church right now is that Christians are too consumeristic. Yet Christians are too consumeristic. Yet Christians are too consumeristic. Yet the only thing that we provide to people the only thing that we provide to people the only thing that we provide to people most of the time on the internet is the most of the time on the internet is the most of the time on the internet is the most consumeristic part of your church. most consumeristic part of your church. most consumeristic part of your church. Well, one thing I've heard loud and Well, one thing I've heard loud and Well, one thing I've heard loud and clearly over the last hour, Mark, is you clearly over the last hour, Mark, is you clearly over the last hour, Mark, is you know, it's sort of reading between the know, it's sort of reading between the know, it's sort of reading between the lines, but you and your team, your lines, but you and your team, your lines, but you and your team, your volunteers, your staff are very volunteers, your staff are very volunteers, your staff are very relational. You've said again and again, relational. You've said again and again, relational. You've said again and again, you know, long conversations, long video you know, long conversations, long video you know, long conversations, long video chats, long chats with people chats, long chats with people chats, long chats with people >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> to really go into the details of their >> to really go into the details of their >> to really go into the details of their lives. And you've got small groups. And lives. And you've got small groups. And lives. And you've got small groups. And I think one of the takeaways of this I think one of the takeaways of this I think one of the takeaways of this conversation for me, there are many, is conversation for me, there are many, is conversation for me, there are many, is most churches online, it's just a most churches online, it's just a most churches online, it's just a broadcast model with a little bit of broadcast model with a little bit of broadcast model with a little bit of chat, and it's sort of like, you know, chat, and it's sort of like, you know, chat, and it's sort of like, you know, their creative director, you know, and their creative director, you know, and their creative director, you know, and other duties as may be assigned, they other duties as may be assigned, they other duties as may be assigned, they kind of have the responsibility to kind of have the responsibility to kind of have the responsibility to stream it, and that's it.

stream it, and that's it. stream it, and that's it. Yeah, get somebody in the YouTube chat Yeah, get somebody in the YouTube chat Yeah, get somebody in the YouTube chat to say hello with the name host next to to say hello with the name host next to to say hello with the name host next to it. it. it. >> Say hello. Uh, what did you have for >> Say hello. Uh, what did you have for >> Say hello. Uh, what did you have for dinner last night? And move on. And And dinner last night? And move on. And And dinner last night? And move on. And And you're doing something very, very you're doing something very, very you're doing something very, very different. Um, anything else that they different. Um, anything else that they different. Um, anything else that they could take away from it? What would you could take away from it? What would you could take away from it? What would you say say say uh, about And maybe it's like, don't uh, about And maybe it's like, don't uh, about And maybe it's like, don't even try, but you know, you think about even try, but you know, you think about even try, but you know, you think about it, there's a certain percentage of any it, there's a certain percentage of any it, there's a certain percentage of any congregation represented in the audience congregation represented in the audience congregation represented in the audience here that is just going to have the uh, here that is just going to have the uh, here that is just going to have the uh, what do you say? The physicist, the what do you say? The physicist, the what do you say? The physicist, the scientist, and, you know, his wife. scientist, and, you know, his wife. scientist, and, you know, his wife. They're going to have hardcore gamers in They're going to have hardcore gamers in They're going to have hardcore gamers in their church. Is there anything that a their church. Is there anything that a their church. Is there anything that a more traditional physical church could more traditional physical church could more traditional physical church could be doing to do a better job serving be doing to do a better job serving be doing to do a better job serving the gamers who are part of their church? the gamers who are part of their church? the gamers who are part of their church? Yeah. Um, Yeah. Um, Yeah. Um, don't demonize it. don't demonize it. don't demonize it. Um, just please stop doing that. Um, just please stop doing that. Um, just please stop doing that. >> Stop doing the stereotype of living in >> Stop doing the stereotype of living in >> Stop doing the stereotype of living in your basement, playing video games, and your basement, playing video games, and your basement, playing video games, and and having no social interaction. and having no social interaction. and having no social interaction. >> about it. Yeah, stop talking down about >> about it. Yeah, stop talking down about >> about it. Yeah, stop talking down about it. Um, it. Um, it. Um, uh, and and especially stop doing that uh, and and especially stop doing that uh, and and especially stop doing that from the pulpit. Um, if you're going to from the pulpit. Um, if you're going to from the pulpit. Um, if you're going to do that from the pulpit, then talk down do that from the pulpit, then talk down do that from the pulpit, then talk down about golf from the pulpit as well. Um, about golf from the pulpit as well. Um, about golf from the pulpit as well. Um, and so, you know, and so, you know, and so, you know, >> offender. Yeah, I And I think it is. You >> offender. Yeah, I And I think it is. You >> offender. Yeah, I And I think it is. You know, like when I sit down with my know, like when I sit down with my know, like when I sit down with my friends around a table to play Dungeons friends around a table to play Dungeons friends around a table to play Dungeons and Dragons for 3 to 4 hours, I get a and Dragons for 3 to 4 hours, I get a and Dragons for 3 to 4 hours, I get a lot of times the same thing out of what lot of times the same thing out of what lot of times the same thing out of what somebody else gets from going out and somebody else gets from going out and somebody else gets from going out and playing 18 holes of golf.

playing 18 holes of golf. playing 18 holes of golf. Um, I'm wasting the same amount of time, Um, I'm wasting the same amount of time, Um, I'm wasting the same amount of time, but I'm also finding ways to invest in but I'm also finding ways to invest in but I'm also finding ways to invest in relationships in a similar way. relationships in a similar way. relationships in a similar way. In the same way that I do when I sit In the same way that I do when I sit In the same way that I do when I sit down to play three or four hours with my down to play three or four hours with my down to play three or four hours with my buddies over a Discord call and we're buddies over a Discord call and we're buddies over a Discord call and we're all playing the same game together or all playing the same game together or all playing the same game together or maybe we're all playing different games. maybe we're all playing different games. maybe we're all playing different games. And so my biggest thing is like plea- And so my biggest thing is like plea- And so my biggest thing is like plea- there is there's legitimacy there is there's legitimacy there is there's legitimacy in calling people out of gaming in calling people out of gaming in calling people out of gaming addiction. There's legitimacy in calling addiction. There's legitimacy in calling addiction. There's legitimacy in calling them out of refusing responsibility, of them out of refusing responsibility, of them out of refusing responsibility, of extending adolescence, of not growing extending adolescence, of not growing extending adolescence, of not growing up. Like there's legitimacy in all of up. Like there's legitimacy in all of up. Like there's legitimacy in all of those things. those things. those things. But to flat-out say that everything that But to flat-out say that everything that But to flat-out say that everything that a group of people love is evil or wrong a group of people love is evil or wrong a group of people love is evil or wrong or stupid isn't helping. And what you or stupid isn't helping. And what you or stupid isn't helping. And what you don't realize is there's a billion more don't realize is there's a billion more don't realize is there's a billion more gamers on the planet than there are gamers on the planet than there are gamers on the planet than there are Christians. This is not a small Christians. This is not a small Christians. This is not a small demographic of people. So there's like 3 demographic of people. So there's like 3 demographic of people. So there's like 3 billion gamers? 2 billion gamers? billion gamers? 2 billion gamers? billion gamers? 2 billion gamers? There's almost 3.7 billion gamers right There's almost 3.7 billion gamers right There's almost 3.7 billion gamers right now. That's half the population. now. That's half the population. now. That's half the population. >> Self-proclaimed gamers. >> Self-proclaimed gamers. >> Self-proclaimed gamers. Yeah, the gaming the gaming industry Yeah, the gaming the gaming industry Yeah, the gaming the gaming industry itself right now itself right now itself right now economically is larger than all the economically is larger than all the economically is larger than all the major sports, movies, and TVs together.

major sports, movies, and TVs together. major sports, movies, and TVs together. It is one of the largest economic It is one of the largest economic It is one of the largest economic engines and cultural connectors that we engines and cultural connectors that we engines and cultural connectors that we actually have access to as a church. actually have access to as a church. actually have access to as a church. Okay, I had no idea. I had no idea. Wow. Okay, I had no idea. I had no idea. Wow. Okay, I had no idea. I had no idea. Wow. This has been a good education for me. I This has been a good education for me. I This has been a good education for me. I got to tell you Mark, I'm learning got to tell you Mark, I'm learning got to tell you Mark, I'm learning stuff. That's why I wanted to have this stuff. That's why I wanted to have this stuff. That's why I wanted to have this conversation. conversation. conversation. So there's a huge opportunity. So I'm So there's a huge opportunity. So I'm So there's a huge opportunity. So I'm I'm thinking like single digits people I'm thinking like single digits people I'm thinking like single digits people are gamers. It's probably more like half are gamers. It's probably more like half are gamers. It's probably more like half your church. your church. your church. Potentially most. Potentially most of Potentially most. Potentially most of Potentially most. Potentially most of your church Right, because that's your church Right, because that's your church Right, because that's heavily skewed toward the developed heavily skewed toward the developed heavily skewed toward the developed world rather than the developing world, world rather than the developing world, world rather than the developing world, right? The 3.7 billion gamers. Um right? The 3.7 billion gamers. Um right? The 3.7 billion gamers. Um So potentially most of the people in So potentially most of the people in So potentially most of the people in your church your church your church game. game. game. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> Yeah, in some capacity. Now, [snorts] >> Yeah, in some capacity. Now, [snorts] >> Yeah, in some capacity. Now, [snorts] that can be in varying degrees, right? that can be in varying degrees, right? that can be in varying degrees, right? Not everyone is a gamer the way that I Not everyone is a gamer the way that I Not everyone is a gamer the way that I am a a Not everyone's a gamer as a daily am a a Not everyone's a gamer as a daily am a a Not everyone's a gamer as a daily gamer. But like just to give you an gamer. But like just to give you an gamer. But like just to give you an example, like my good buddy's mom, she's example, like my good buddy's mom, she's example, like my good buddy's mom, she's in her 60s, she has like 3 or 4,000 in her 60s, she has like 3 or 4,000 in her 60s, she has like 3 or 4,000 hours logged into Animal Crossing on her hours logged into Animal Crossing on her hours logged into Animal Crossing on her Nintendo Switch. Nintendo Switch. Nintendo Switch. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Right? Like uh and so, you know, like >> Right? Like uh and so, you know, like >> Right? Like uh and so, you know, like this isn't it's not it's not just for this isn't it's not it's not just for this isn't it's not it's not just for like like like it man, I we just have to get out of the it man, I we just have to get out of the it man, I we just have to get out of the stereotypes of what the gamer is. Um and stereotypes of what the gamer is. Um and stereotypes of what the gamer is. Um and then I I'll give one other just little then I I'll give one other just little then I I'll give one other just little it because I don't love the piece of it because I don't love the piece of it because I don't love the piece of advice that I necessarily gave to all advice that I necessarily gave to all advice that I necessarily gave to all church pastors, like shut down your live church pastors, like shut down your live church pastors, like shut down your live stream. That's not what I meant. But if stream. That's not what I meant. But if stream. That's not what I meant. But if you're listening to this and you're you're listening to this and you're you're listening to this and you're like, man, I really want to understand like, man, I really want to understand like, man, I really want to understand how these this digital space works, and how these this digital space works, and how these this digital space works, and I want to I want to I want to try to I want to I want to I want to try to I want to I want to I want to try to grow in this.

grow in this. grow in this. Give you one piece of advice, and this Give you one piece of advice, and this Give you one piece of advice, and this comes from the lead pastor of XP Church, comes from the lead pastor of XP Church, comes from the lead pastor of XP Church, which is another online church in the which is another online church in the which is another online church in the gaming community, Matt Susis, lead gaming community, Matt Susis, lead gaming community, Matt Susis, lead pastor there. And this is the piece of pastor there. And this is the piece of pastor there. And this is the piece of advice that he gives to church leaders, advice that he gives to church leaders, advice that he gives to church leaders, and I think it's really solid. Find one and I think it's really solid. Find one and I think it's really solid. Find one person that's listening in to your live person that's listening in to your live person that's listening in to your live stream or connected to you on social stream or connected to you on social stream or connected to you on social media, your church, that you cannot meet media, your church, that you cannot meet media, your church, that you cannot meet with physically, with physically, with physically, and meet with them once a week, and and meet with them once a week, and and meet with them once a week, and disciple them for 6 months. disciple them for 6 months. disciple them for 6 months. And then determine if that relationship And then determine if that relationship And then determine if that relationship is real. And if that cuz cuz is real. And if that cuz cuz is real. And if that cuz cuz relationships are the key to ministry relationships are the key to ministry relationships are the key to ministry for a pastor, right? That's what they've for a pastor, right? That's what they've for a pastor, right? That's what they've depended on. And and a lot of times, depended on. And and a lot of times, depended on. And and a lot of times, they don't think digital is real cuz they don't think digital is real cuz they don't think digital is real cuz they don't know how to access they don't know how to access they don't know how to access relationships. They just see platform, relationships. They just see platform, relationships. They just see platform, and they don't like it. And be honest and they don't like it. And be honest and they don't like it. And be honest with you, I don't really blame them for with you, I don't really blame them for with you, I don't really blame them for not liking it. I don't like it either. not liking it. I don't like it either. not liking it. I don't like it either. And so, And so, And so, take the time to build one relationship, take the time to build one relationship, take the time to build one relationship, impact one life, and I promise you, impact one life, and I promise you, impact one life, and I promise you, it'll be the keys that unlock so much it'll be the keys that unlock so much it'll be the keys that unlock so much more. more. more. Hm. Hm. Hm. Mark, this is great. Anything else we Mark, this is great. Anything else we Mark, this is great. Anything else we didn't touch on that you want to touch didn't touch on that you want to touch didn't touch on that you want to touch on for wrap up? I know that I my team really loved I know that I my team really loved questions 11 and 12. What's different questions 11 and 12. What's different questions 11 and 12. What's different about your church than most online about your church than most online about your church than most online churches? What do you say to leaders who churches? What do you say to leaders who churches? What do you say to leaders who think digital church is just content or think digital church is just content or think digital church is just content or consumption? So, let's go. Go ahead and consumption? So, let's go. Go ahead and consumption? So, let's go. Go ahead and and riff off those.

and riff off those. and riff off those. So, you know, most online churches, to So, you know, most online churches, to So, you know, most online churches, to be entirely honest with you, like be entirely honest with you, like be entirely honest with you, like they're they're aren't churches. Like they're they're aren't churches. Like they're they're aren't churches. Like they're not they're not being the they're not they're not being the they're not they're not being the church. Um but like I said before, like church. Um but like I said before, like church. Um but like I said before, like our online church isn't second for our online church isn't second for our online church isn't second for people. It is uh we are we are we are people. It is uh we are we are we are people. It is uh we are we are we are unapologetically unapologetically unapologetically there for them. And so, when a lot of there for them. And so, when a lot of there for them. And so, when a lot of you look at this, "Hey man, I don't you look at this, "Hey man, I don't you look at this, "Hey man, I don't really like what's going on online right really like what's going on online right really like what's going on online right now. I don't like the church even being now. I don't like the church even being now. I don't like the church even being online right now." I I actually agree online right now." I I actually agree online right now." I I actually agree with you. I remember when I was on I met with you. I remember when I was on I met with you. I remember when I was on I met Doug Parks online for the first time as Doug Parks online for the first time as Doug Parks online for the first time as the president of intentional churches the president of intentional churches the president of intentional churches and he has been openly pretty critical and he has been openly pretty critical and he has been openly pretty critical of of live streaming and online church of of live streaming and online church of of live streaming and online church in general. And uh in general. And uh in general. And uh literally realized we actually shared literally realized we actually shared literally realized we actually shared all of the same opinions. So, I actually all of the same opinions. So, I actually all of the same opinions. So, I actually came on his podcast and we talked came on his podcast and we talked came on his podcast and we talked through that because we actually shared through that because we actually shared through that because we actually shared a lot of the same opinions about the a lot of the same opinions about the a lot of the same opinions about the online space. I think that we do need to online space. I think that we do need to online space. I think that we do need to be way more intentional about it and we be way more intentional about it and we be way more intentional about it and we have had to go pretty outside the box on have had to go pretty outside the box on have had to go pretty outside the box on some things. Like I'll I'll give you an some things. Like I'll I'll give you an some things. Like I'll I'll give you an example. This year, we launched Lux example. This year, we launched Lux example. This year, we launched Lux Kids. And this has been one of the Kids. And this has been one of the Kids. And this has been one of the biggest critiques. How do you do biggest critiques. How do you do biggest critiques. How do you do children's ministry? So, to be perfectly children's ministry? So, to be perfectly children's ministry? So, to be perfectly honest with you, I'm 37 and you don't honest with you, I'm 37 and you don't honest with you, I'm 37 and you don't want me coming through your computer to want me coming through your computer to want me coming through your computer to talk to your 8-year-old daughter. That's talk to your 8-year-old daughter. That's talk to your 8-year-old daughter. That's creepy. Even if you do trust me, I don't creepy. Even if you do trust me, I don't creepy. Even if you do trust me, I don't want I care I don't want you coming want I care I don't want you coming want I care I don't want you coming through to talk to my 8-year-old through to talk to my 8-year-old through to talk to my 8-year-old daughter and I trust you, right? And so, daughter and I trust you, right? And so, daughter and I trust you, right? And so, how do we actually And so, one of the how do we actually And so, one of the how do we actually And so, one of the things that we did was we just said, things that we did was we just said, things that we did was we just said, "Okay, how do we really go back to the "Okay, how do we really go back to the "Okay, how do we really go back to the basics? There's nothing biblical about basics? There's nothing biblical about basics? There's nothing biblical about children's ministry in the form that it children's ministry in the form that it children's ministry in the form that it takes. There's something biblical about takes. There's something biblical about takes. There's something biblical about raising children in the way that they raising children in the way that they raising children in the way that they should go, but there's nothing in the should go, but there's nothing in the should go, but there's nothing in the Bible that says that you have to use Bible that says that you have to use Bible that says that you have to use orange curriculum or that you have to orange curriculum or that you have to orange curriculum or that you have to use that curriculum and that you have to use that curriculum and that you have to use that curriculum and that you have to gather for this amount of time and you gather for this amount of time and you gather for this amount of time and you do that, right?" But there is something do that, right?" But there is something do that, right?" But there is something really biblical about parents raising

really biblical about parents raising really biblical about parents raising their kids. And so, we launched a their kids. And so, we launched a their kids. And so, we launched a children's ministry this year in which children's ministry this year in which children's ministry this year in which we just equip parents to raise their own we just equip parents to raise their own we just equip parents to raise their own kids in the Lord. So, we give them kids in the Lord. So, we give them kids in the Lord. So, we give them everything that they need resource-wise everything that they need resource-wise everything that they need resource-wise to engage with their kids for about 45 to engage with their kids for about 45 to engage with their kids for about 45 minutes to an hour every week in their minutes to an hour every week in their minutes to an hour every week in their own spiritual growth. We give them seven own spiritual growth. We give them seven own spiritual growth. We give them seven prayer prompts, three table talks. We prayer prompts, three table talks. We prayer prompts, three table talks. We give them activities, videos that they give them activities, videos that they give them activities, videos that they can watch with their kids that we can watch with their kids that we can watch with their kids that we actually pull out of the back end with actually pull out of the back end with actually pull out of the back end with RightNow Media cuz we use RightNow Media RightNow Media cuz we use RightNow Media RightNow Media cuz we use RightNow Media in our church has access to that. And in our church has access to that. And in our church has access to that. And then on top of that, because parents are then on top of that, because parents are then on top of that, because parents are busy and they don't have time to get busy and they don't have time to get busy and they don't have time to get stuff, we offer a subscription box where stuff, we offer a subscription box where stuff, we offer a subscription box where we will ship them everything in the mail we will ship them everything in the mail we will ship them everything in the mail they need every month to do all the they need every month to do all the they need every month to do all the activities with their kids. The kids get activities with their kids. The kids get activities with their kids. The kids get their Lux Kids Box in the mail, they're their Lux Kids Box in the mail, they're their Lux Kids Box in the mail, they're excited to open it up. Throughout the excited to open it up. Throughout the excited to open it up. Throughout the month, they go through the prayer month, they go through the prayer month, they go through the prayer prompts and the Bible discussions and prompts and the Bible discussions and prompts and the Bible discussions and the worship videos alongside their the worship videos alongside their the worship videos alongside their parents, and we resource them with a parents, and we resource them with a parents, and we resource them with a podcast that's just for the parents. podcast that's just for the parents. podcast that's just for the parents. It's from our pastors to help resource It's from our pastors to help resource It's from our pastors to help resource them better. And so, like them better. And so, like them better. And so, like getting outside the box and doing things getting outside the box and doing things getting outside the box and doing things that is more than just a live stream, that is more than just a live stream, that is more than just a live stream, but actually thinking about how do we but actually thinking about how do we but actually thinking about how do we how do we actually be the church in how do we actually be the church in how do we actually be the church in digital space, not just offer service? digital space, not just offer service? digital space, not just offer service? Mhm. Like our Mhm. Like our Mhm. Like our Your service is the tip of the iceberg Your service is the tip of the iceberg Your service is the tip of the iceberg on what you do as a church.

on what you do as a church. on what you do as a church. So, the Actually, I think the last thing So, the Actually, I think the last thing So, the Actually, I think the last thing that you should be thinking about is how that you should be thinking about is how that you should be thinking about is how do we get our service online? If you're do we get our service online? If you're do we get our service online? If you're wanting how to do digital ministry, wanting how to do digital ministry, wanting how to do digital ministry, first things that you should be thinking first things that you should be thinking first things that you should be thinking is how do we actually connect with is how do we actually connect with is how do we actually connect with people? How do we build relationship people? How do we build relationship people? How do we build relationship with people? How do we hear people's with people? How do we hear people's with people? How do we hear people's stories in the same way that we want to stories in the same way that we want to stories in the same way that we want to inside of our physical building? This inside of our physical building? This inside of our physical building? This has been a good conversation. I This is has been a good conversation. I This is has been a good conversation. I This is a topic I'll want to revisit from time a topic I'll want to revisit from time a topic I'll want to revisit from time to time. I really want to thank you, so to time. I really want to thank you, so to time. I really want to thank you, so Mark, it's called Lux Church. Where can Mark, it's called Lux Church. Where can Mark, it's called Lux Church. Where can people find you online? Obviously, people find you online? Obviously, people find you online? Obviously, Discord and Twitch, guess what? And and Discord and Twitch, guess what? And and Discord and Twitch, guess what? And and but give us a couple of websites where but give us a couple of websites where but give us a couple of websites where people can track or other resources that people can track or other resources that people can track or other resources that you want to point people to. you want to point people to. you want to point people to. Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to put my Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to put my Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to put my money where my mouth is. Uh and so, money where my mouth is. Uh and so, money where my mouth is. Uh and so, everything that we've done and I've everything that we've done and I've everything that we've done and I've talked about is the importance of talked about is the importance of talked about is the importance of relationships online, and I don't want relationships online, and I don't want relationships online, and I don't want you to just come and spectate us. So, you to just come and spectate us. So, you to just come and spectate us. So, I'm going to give you my personal email. I'm going to give you my personal email. I'm going to give you my personal email. Um and so, if you'd like to reach out to Um and so, if you'd like to reach out to Um and so, if you'd like to reach out to me, my email is Mark m a r k me, my email is Mark m a r k me, my email is Mark m a r k @luxdigitalchurch.com, and if you want to throw me a text, my and if you want to throw me a text, my number is 724-650-5432. If you're out there and you're listening If you're out there and you're listening in right now and you would really like in right now and you would really like in right now and you would really like to uh get connected and talk more about to uh get connected and talk more about to uh get connected and talk more about digital ministry, we're setting up a digital ministry, we're setting up a digital ministry, we're setting up a learning community on a slightly more learning community on a slightly more learning community on a slightly more palatable platform called Slack. And if palatable platform called Slack. And if palatable platform called Slack. And if you would like to check that out, all you would like to check that out, all you would like to check that out, all you have to go is to you have to go is to you have to go is to luxdigitalchurch.com/carey, luxdigitalchurch.com/carey, luxdigitalchurch.com/carey, c a r e y, and if you really want to c a r e y, and if you really want to c a r e y, and if you really want to know what we're doing in Discord and you know what we're doing in Discord and you know what we're doing in Discord and you want to check it out. It's easy to find want to check it out. It's easy to find want to check it out. It's easy to find where at Lux Digital Church.com or you where at Lux Digital Church.com or you where at Lux Digital Church.com or you can go to discord.gg/luxdigitalchurch can go to discord.gg/luxdigitalchurch can go to discord.gg/luxdigitalchurch that'll plug you directly into our that'll plug you directly into our that'll plug you directly into our discord server. If you never used discord server. If you never used discord server. If you never used discord before, be prepared to be

discord before, be prepared to be discord before, be prepared to be overwhelmed, but we're already preparing overwhelmed, but we're already preparing overwhelmed, but we're already preparing to have a space just for people who are to have a space just for people who are to have a space just for people who are coming in from the show to be able to coming in from the show to be able to coming in from the show to be able to get plugged in with one another and also get plugged in with one another and also get plugged in with one another and also be able to understand and experience be able to understand and experience be able to understand and experience what we're doing at Lux. what we're doing at Lux. what we're doing at Lux. Well, I got to tell you I'm sure some Well, I got to tell you I'm sure some Well, I got to tell you I'm sure some people are going to take you up on that people are going to take you up on that people are going to take you up on that offer. Mark, it's been a delight to offer. Mark, it's been a delight to offer. Mark, it's been a delight to spend some time with you. I've learned a spend some time with you. I've learned a spend some time with you. I've learned a ton and just thank you for what you're ton and just thank you for what you're ton and just thank you for what you're doing. Thanks for blazing new trails. doing. Thanks for blazing new trails. doing. Thanks for blazing new trails. You know, you mentioned Life Church You know, you mentioned Life Church You know, you mentioned Life Church earlier. Craig said it for years, but to earlier. Craig said it for years, but to earlier. Craig said it for years, but to do things that nobody else or to reach do things that nobody else or to reach do things that nobody else or to reach people nobody else is are reaching, we people nobody else is are reaching, we people nobody else is are reaching, we have to do things nobody else are doing have to do things nobody else are doing have to do things nobody else are doing and that's exactly what you're doing. and that's exactly what you're doing. and that's exactly what you're doing. So, thank you so much on behalf of the So, thank you so much on behalf of the So, thank you so much on behalf of the whole church. I appreciate your whole church. I appreciate your whole church. I appreciate your pioneering ship in this. pioneering ship in this. pioneering ship in this. Thank you, Carey. Thank you so much for Thank you, Carey. Thank you so much for Thank you, Carey. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I really having me on the show. I really having me on the show. I really appreciate it. Well, we talked about a appreciate it. Well, we talked about a appreciate it. Well, we talked about a number of things that you might be number of things that you might be number of things that you might be interested. We've got show notes for interested. We've got show notes for interested. We've got show notes for you. You can get them at the Art of you. You can get them at the Art of you. You can get them at the Art of Leadership Academy. Go to the Art of Leadership Academy. Go to the Art of Leadership Academy. Go to the Art of Leadership Academy.com, join well, Leadership Academy.com, join well, Leadership Academy.com, join well, almost I think it's 18,000 19,000 almost I think it's 18,000 19,000 almost I think it's 18,000 19,000 leaders. I don't know. It's a lot inside leaders. I don't know. It's a lot inside leaders. I don't know. It's a lot inside the Academy right now. Set up a free the Academy right now. Set up a free the Academy right now. Set up a free account and we have some great account and we have some great account and we have some great discussions on topics just like this.

discussions on topics just like this. discussions on topics just like this. Plus you'll find a treasure trove of Plus you'll find a treasure trove of Plus you'll find a treasure trove of research including the show notes. So, research including the show notes. So, research including the show notes. So, all that's inside my Art of Leadership all that's inside my Art of Leadership all that's inside my Art of Leadership Academy. I'd love for you to move from Academy. I'd love for you to move from Academy. I'd love for you to move from the crowd to the community to the core the crowd to the community to the core the crowd to the community to the core this year and you can do that at the Art this year and you can do that at the Art this year and you can do that at the Art of Leadership Academy.com. If you of Leadership Academy.com. If you of Leadership Academy.com. If you enjoyed this episode, maybe share it enjoyed this episode, maybe share it enjoyed this episode, maybe share it with a friend. Shoot them a text to the with a friend. Shoot them a text to the with a friend. Shoot them a text to the link. Leave a rating and review that link. Leave a rating and review that link. Leave a rating and review that makes a really big difference. Next makes a really big difference. Next makes a really big difference. Next episode on the podcast, you're going to episode on the podcast, you're going to episode on the podcast, you're going to hear from me on a topic really close to hear from me on a topic really close to hear from me on a topic really close to my heart, but also coming up Arthur my heart, but also coming up Arthur my heart, but also coming up Arthur Brooks, Near AL, Christine Caine, John Brooks, Near AL, Christine Caine, John Brooks, Near AL, Christine Caine, John Acuff, Todd Wilson on the history of the Acuff, Todd Wilson on the history of the Acuff, Todd Wilson on the history of the megachurch and the large church in megachurch and the large church in megachurch and the large church in America. It's fascinating. So, thanks so America. It's fascinating. So, thanks so America. It's fascinating. So, thanks so much for listening and hey, if this much for listening and hey, if this much for listening and hey, if this conversation was helpful, conversation was helpful, conversation was helpful, uh let a friend know. Let us know. We uh let a friend know. Let us know. We uh let a friend know. Let us know. We would love to hear from you. Don't would love to hear from you. Don't would love to hear from you. Don't forget to share it with a friend and I forget to share it with a friend and I forget to share it with a friend and I hope that maybe this helped you rethink hope that maybe this helped you rethink hope that maybe this helped you rethink your online ministry and potentially your online ministry and potentially your online ministry and potentially break a growth barrier that you're break a growth barrier that you're break a growth barrier that you're facing. We'll catch you next time.