How Pastors Can Lead in an Age of Outrage with Ed Stetzer

the percentage of people are going to be the percentage of people are going to be mad at you on an ongoing basis is mad at you on an ongoing basis is mad at you on an ongoing basis is probably higher in 2024 than it was in probably higher in 2024 than it was in probably higher in 2024 than it was in 2016 welcome to the K newoff leadership 2016 welcome to the K newoff leadership 2016 welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube it's Carrie here and podcast on YouTube it's Carrie here and podcast on YouTube it's Carrie here and today on the podcast Ed ster it's part today on the podcast Ed ster it's part today on the podcast Ed ster it's part of our continuing series on pastoring in of our continuing series on pastoring in of our continuing series on pastoring in a partisan age and hey just a quick note a partisan age and hey just a quick note a partisan age and hey just a quick note the purpose of this conversation this the purpose of this conversation this the purpose of this conversation this podcast is educational and informational podcast is educational and informational podcast is educational and informational we've got a variety of perspectives we've got a variety of perspectives we've got a variety of perspectives represented throughout the series so represented throughout the series so represented throughout the series so please play nice in the comments keep it please play nice in the comments keep it please play nice in the comments keep it civil the goal of this series is to to civil the goal of this series is to to civil the goal of this series is to to help you diffuse the conflict the help you diffuse the conflict the help you diffuse the conflict the culture and perhaps your church is culture and perhaps your church is culture and perhaps your church is experiencing we want to unite in an age experiencing we want to unite in an age experiencing we want to unite in an age of division so to help you with that we of division so to help you with that we of division so to help you with that we not only have this interview but I not only have this interview but I not only have this interview but I created a free guide you can explore on created a free guide you can explore on created a free guide you can explore on how to Pastor in a partisan age I turned how to Pastor in a partisan age I turned how to Pastor in a partisan age I turned the key insights and Concepts you hear the key insights and Concepts you hear the key insights and Concepts you hear in this podcast series into very in this podcast series into very in this podcast series into very actionable steps that make it way easier actionable steps that make it way easier actionable steps that make it way easier and less awkward to deal with any and less awkward to deal with any and less awkward to deal with any conflict and divisiveness at your church conflict and divisiveness at your church conflict and divisiveness at your church so if you want to start leading a more so if you want to start leading a more so if you want to start leading a more United Church download the guide at United Church download the guide at United Church download the guide at churchi guide.com or click the link in churchi guide.com or click the link in churchi guide.com or click the link in the description of this episode today's the description of this episode today's the description of this episode today's episode is brought to you by compassion episode is brought to you by compassion episode is brought to you by compassion you know you can bring a mission Focus you know you can bring a mission Focus you know you can bring a mission Focus to your church and then watch God use to your church and then watch God use to your church and then watch God use your church to impact the world I want your church to impact the world I want your church to impact the world I want to encourage you to connect with my to encourage you to connect with my to encourage you to connect with my friends at Compassion you can find out friends at Compassion you can find out friends at Compassion you can find out more at compassion.com more at compassion.com more at compassion.com carry and by church. te if you want to carry and by church. te if you want to carry and by church. te if you want to feel confident using AI for Ministry feel confident using AI for Ministry feel confident using AI for Ministry ethically and responsibly you need to ethically and responsibly you need to ethically and responsibly you need to check out church. te use the code carry check out church. te use the code carry check out church. te use the code carry for an exclusive 25% off your first 3

for an exclusive 25% off your first 3 for an exclusive 25% off your first 3 months when you visit church. Tech and months when you visit church. Tech and months when you visit church. Tech and now my conversation with Ed ster Ed now my conversation with Ed ster Ed now my conversation with Ed ster Ed welcome back thank you I always enjoy welcome back thank you I always enjoy welcome back thank you I always enjoy our conversations and uh you have a way our conversations and uh you have a way our conversations and uh you have a way of saying meaningful things in a way of saying meaningful things in a way of saying meaningful things in a way that really make me think twice you you that really make me think twice you you that really make me think twice you you always come from a really interesting always come from a really interesting always come from a really interesting perspective so couple years ago I want perspective so couple years ago I want perspective so couple years ago I want to start with a quote of yours I'm going to start with a quote of yours I'm going to start with a quote of yours I'm going to quote you to you which is always to quote you to you which is always to quote you to you which is always dangerous but I think you'll like this dangerous but I think you'll like this dangerous but I think you'll like this one okay you wrote we've entered a new one okay you wrote we've entered a new one okay you wrote we've entered a new age one defined by polarization and age one defined by polarization and age one defined by polarization and tribalism Amplified by new technology tribalism Amplified by new technology tribalism Amplified by new technology and online platforms first I don't and online platforms first I don't and online platforms first I don't disagree and disagree and disagree and second what fostered that new age like second what fostered that new age like second what fostered that new age like what were the the Genesis Factors for it what were the the Genesis Factors for it what were the the Genesis Factors for it Ed yeah I think it's a good good Ed yeah I think it's a good good Ed yeah I think it's a good good question and you can see sort of the question and you can see sort of the question and you can see sort of the rise some of there actually with a can rise some of there actually with a can rise some of there actually with a can since you're Canadian I was with a since you're Canadian I was with a since you're Canadian I was with a Canadian and you know even some of the Canadian and you know even some of the Canadian and you know even some of the elections in Quebec were some of the elections in Quebec were some of the elections in Quebec were some of the earlier notices people were seeing a earlier notices people were seeing a earlier notices people were seeing a rise of nationalism and a rise of rise of nationalism and a rise of rise of nationalism and a rise of division this would be before you know division this would be before you know division this would be before you know 2020 and and and you could see um you 2020 and and and you could see um you 2020 and and and you could see um you know I wouldn't have guessed though and know I wouldn't have guessed though and know I wouldn't have guessed though and here's the reality if you went back to here's the reality if you went back to here's the reality if you went back to 2015 and said this is what we're going 2015 and said this is what we're going 2015 and said this is what we're going to experience I don't think anybody to experience I don't think anybody to experience I don't think anybody would have gotten it right you know so would have gotten it right you know so would have gotten it right you know so so the the rise of polarization so the the rise of polarization so the the rise of polarization certainly has to be connected in some certainly has to be connected in some certainly has to be connected in some way but not the only way to the r to the way but not the only way to the r to the way but not the only way to the r to the rise of Technology because what is has rise of Technology because what is has rise of Technology because what is has happened it it has empowered people to happened it it has empowered people to happened it it has empowered people to find one another and in finding one

find one another and in finding one find one another and in finding one another they actually have spoken to one another they actually have spoken to one another they actually have spoken to one another created Echo Chambers in which another created Echo Chambers in which another created Echo Chambers in which the depth of their views has grown the depth of their views has grown the depth of their views has grown whereas they might be interacting with whereas they might be interacting with whereas they might be interacting with people who might have different views people who might have different views people who might have different views and they might say well maybe there's and they might say well maybe there's and they might say well maybe there's another side to this you might go your another side to this you might go your another side to this you might go your whole life without interacting with the whole life without interacting with the whole life without interacting with the other side to this so I think you have a other side to this so I think you have a other side to this so I think you have a Confluence of situations you know you've Confluence of situations you know you've Confluence of situations you know you've got technology you've got a push back got technology you've got a push back got technology you've got a push back against um you know just the against um you know just the against um you know just the globalization migration um a rise of globalization migration um a rise of globalization migration um a rise of nationalism those are all pushed back nationalism those are all pushed back nationalism those are all pushed back but those I don't think that could have but those I don't think that could have but those I don't think that could have I mean that's happened in the past yeah I mean that's happened in the past yeah I mean that's happened in the past yeah but I think technology helped that to to but I think technology helped that to to but I think technology helped that to to to accelerate so I think what caused it to accelerate so I think what caused it to accelerate so I think what caused it people will look back for a long time I people will look back for a long time I people will look back for a long time I think you could probably start to feel think you could probably start to feel think you could probably start to feel it um the fullness of it maybe even it um the fullness of it maybe even it um the fullness of it maybe even under the Obama Administration I think under the Obama Administration I think under the Obama Administration I think people increasingly felt there people increasingly felt there people increasingly felt there particularly people on the right particularly people on the right particularly people on the right conservatives felt their views not just conservatives felt their views not just conservatives felt their views not just were dismissed but were sort of there were dismissed but were sort of there were dismissed but were sort of there were to be run out of uh you know run were to be run out of uh you know run were to be run out of uh you know run out of the context we go from the out of the context we go from the out of the context we go from the beginning of the Obama Administration beginning of the Obama Administration beginning of the Obama Administration where Rick Warren would pray at an where Rick Warren would pray at an where Rick Warren would pray at an inauguration to uh to at the end Lou inauguration to uh to at the end Lou inauguration to uh to at the end Lou Giglio quietly withdrawing from praying Giglio quietly withdrawing from praying Giglio quietly withdrawing from praying at the inauguration so so I think what at the inauguration so so I think what at the inauguration so so I think what happened was people in the more happened was people in the more happened was people in the more conservative side people evangelicals in conservative side people evangelicals in conservative side people evangelicals in the US conserv evangelicals in the US the US conserv evangelicals in the US the US conserv evangelicals in the US said you know what if we're not going to said you know what if we're not going to said you know what if we're not going to be welcome here we're going to go a be welcome here we're going to go a be welcome here we're going to go a different direction we're going to we're different direction we're going to we're different direction we're going to we're going to fight a different way going to fight a different way going to fight a different way combine that with technology combine combine that with technology combine combine that with technology combine that with Rising nationalism combine that with Rising nationalism combine that with Rising nationalism combine that with a hundred other things you end

that with a hundred other things you end that with a hundred other things you end up with well combine that with covid and up with well combine that with covid and up with well combine that with covid and how people responded to it it's it's I'm how people responded to it it's it's I'm how people responded to it it's it's I'm in California and it's interesting how in California and it's interesting how in California and it's interesting how stronger the response is against some of stronger the response is against some of stronger the response is against some of the more Progressive ideas in California the more Progressive ideas in California the more Progressive ideas in California I think in part because they felt their I think in part because they felt their I think in part because they felt their voices were squashed and and uh in covid voices were squashed and and uh in covid voices were squashed and and uh in covid in ways that wasn't in other places so in ways that wasn't in other places so in ways that wasn't in other places so as also too you know one of the things as also too you know one of the things as also too you know one of the things it's hard to explain you know Alberta is it's hard to explain you know Alberta is it's hard to explain you know Alberta is different than than you know Toronto you different than than you know Toronto you different than than you know Toronto you know that it's different than Ontario know that it's different than Ontario know that it's different than Ontario but it's not the same as when you but it's not the same as when you but it's not the same as when you compare California to Mississippi I mean compare California to Mississippi I mean compare California to Mississippi I mean the the level you know Alberta still the the level you know Alberta still the the level you know Alberta still they may wear hats they may look like they may wear hats they may look like they may wear hats they may look like Texas but albertans are still Canadians Texas but albertans are still Canadians Texas but albertans are still Canadians and and the Quebec are still Canadians and and the Quebec are still Canadians and and the Quebec are still Canadians they might not like to admit it where in they might not like to admit it where in they might not like to admit it where in the US it feels like different countries the US it feels like different countries the US it feels like different countries yeah that's really interesting so I mean yeah that's really interesting so I mean yeah that's really interesting so I mean I think 80% of the listeners to this I think 80% of the listeners to this I think 80% of the listeners to this podcast are American maybe should stop podcast are American maybe should stop podcast are American maybe should stop the Canadian references I'll well that's the Canadian references I'll well that's the Canadian references I'll well that's all right but you're right somebody once all right but you're right somebody once all right but you're right somebody once explained to me if political spectrums explained to me if political spectrums explained to me if political spectrums were on left to right right being um you were on left to right right being um you were on left to right right being um you know 0 to 10 zero being Q andon on the know 0 to 10 zero being Q andon on the know 0 to 10 zero being Q andon on the far far right and 10 being you know far far right and 10 being you know far far right and 10 being you know almost communist on the left that almost communist on the left that almost communist on the left that Americans divide somewhere between a Americans divide somewhere between a Americans divide somewhere between a three and an and a eight or nine three and an and a eight or nine three and an and a eight or nine Canadians almost like super conservative Canadians almost like super conservative Canadians almost like super conservative in Canada's like a five and super in Canada's like a five and super in Canada's like a five and super liberal is like a seven right you know liberal is like a seven right you know liberal is like a seven right you know like so we don't quite have the Bernie like so we don't quite have the Bernie like so we don't quite have the Bernie Sanders we don't quite have the qinon Sanders we don't quite have the qinon Sanders we don't quite have the qinon we're just our our range is different

we're just our our range is different we're just our our range is different and you're right Albert is a little bit and you're right Albert is a little bit and you're right Albert is a little bit like Texas or they like to think so but like Texas or they like to think so but like Texas or they like to think so but it's not like Texas and Quebec I don't it's not like Texas and Quebec I don't it's not like Texas and Quebec I don't know about Quebec Quebec's just Quebec know about Quebec Quebec's just Quebec know about Quebec Quebec's just Quebec Quebec just Quebec they're not sure they Quebec just Quebec they're not sure they Quebec just Quebec they're not sure they want to be with you anyway so exactly want to be with you anyway so exactly want to be with you anyway so exactly they've been threatening to break out they've been threatening to break out they've been threatening to break out for 50 years so you know it's one of for 50 years so you know it's one of for 50 years so you know it's one of those things but the thing that really those things but the thing that really those things but the thing that really interests me we have seen this in Canada interests me we have seen this in Canada interests me we have seen this in Canada we've seen this in um a lot of places in we've seen this in um a lot of places in we've seen this in um a lot of places in the west is Christians have fallen for the west is Christians have fallen for the west is Christians have fallen for the partisanship and the tribalism the partisanship and the tribalism the partisanship and the tribalism hookline and sinker not all but a lot hookline and sinker not all but a lot hookline and sinker not all but a lot what do you think it is about Christians what do you think it is about Christians what do you think it is about Christians that have made us so susceptible to the that have made us so susceptible to the that have made us so susceptible to the cultural tides of the moment and the cultural tides of the moment and the cultural tides of the moment and the partisan partisan partisan divide yeah I mean I think that's that's divide yeah I mean I think that's that's divide yeah I mean I think that's that's okay I I think this again you need you okay I I think this again you need you okay I I think this again you need you need to explain a little bit of America need to explain a little bit of America need to explain a little bit of America the Americans are hope Americans are the Americans are hope Americans are the Americans are hope Americans are listening and hoping I explain this to listening and hoping I explain this to listening and hoping I explain this to you um because there is the Assumption you um because there is the Assumption you um because there is the Assumption you know I talk to my Australian friends you know I talk to my Australian friends you know I talk to my Australian friends and I teach in the UK twice a year um uh and I teach in the UK twice a year um uh and I teach in the UK twice a year um uh there's a a different feeling in a there's a a different feeling in a there's a a different feeling in a two-party system than it is in your two-party system than it is in your two-party system than it is in your multi-party democracy right so in a multi-party democracy right so in a multi-party democracy right so in a two-party system the politicians know two-party system the politicians know two-party system the politicians know that they need to put together an that they need to put together an that they need to put together an alliance of people and that Alliance of alliance of people and that Alliance of alliance of people and that Alliance of people on the Democratic side might people on the Democratic side might people on the Democratic side might include uh public sector unions and include uh public sector unions and include uh public sector unions and unions in general it might include more unions in general it might include more unions in general it might include more Progressive activists and more it might Progressive activists and more it might Progressive activists and more it might include secular people it might include include secular people it might include include secular people it might include uh people in the LGBT community and they uh people in the LGBT community and they uh people in the LGBT community and they sort of need to stick together now you sort of need to stick together now you sort of need to stick together now you you would be surprised to know that you

you would be surprised to know that you you would be surprised to know that you know my dad grew up as a I grew up with know my dad grew up as a I grew up with know my dad grew up as a I grew up with my dad being a union iron lather uh in my dad being a union iron lather uh in my dad being a union iron lather uh in New York City and the idea that Unions New York City and the idea that Unions New York City and the idea that Unions would have allied with the most would have allied with the most would have allied with the most Progressive forces of our society would Progressive forces of our society would Progressive forces of our society would have been a strange thing to think of 50 have been a strange thing to think of 50 have been a strange thing to think of 50 years ago but it created a political years ago but it created a political years ago but it created a political Alliance and then people said we're Alliance and then people said we're Alliance and then people said we're going to stick together because we win going to stick together because we win going to stick together because we win when we stick together and on the on the when we stick together and on the on the when we stick together and on the on the conservative side Republicans uh conservative side Republicans uh conservative side Republicans uh particularly uh uh after the southern particularly uh uh after the southern particularly uh uh after the southern strategy the Republicans Drew uh people strategy the Republicans Drew uh people strategy the Republicans Drew uh people from the South um disproportionately from the South um disproportionately from the South um disproportionately religious people uh and you know and religious people uh and you know and religious people uh and you know and what we saw with Trump is is he actually what we saw with Trump is is he actually what we saw with Trump is is he actually Drew from the Rust Belt in ways that Drew from the Rust Belt in ways that Drew from the Rust Belt in ways that that prior candidates had not so they that prior candidates had not so they that prior candidates had not so they create an alliance so when you're create an alliance so when you're create an alliance so when you're looking from Canada and you're like well looking from Canada and you're like well looking from Canada and you're like well you know we have eight or nine parties you know we have eight or nine parties you know we have eight or nine parties to vote for yeah but but if stepen to vote for yeah but but if stepen to vote for yeah but but if stepen Harper were to win again it was you know Harper were to win again it was you know Harper were to win again it was you know First Alliance I think in Calgary um he First Alliance I think in Calgary um he First Alliance I think in Calgary um he it wouldn't be seen an existential it wouldn't be seen an existential it wouldn't be seen an existential threat to uh the progressive side you threat to uh the progressive side you threat to uh the progressive side you still have National Healthcare you still have National Healthcare you still have National Healthcare you probably still have right you know you probably still have right you know you probably still have right you know you probably still have legalized abortion probably still have legalized abortion probably still have legalized abortion um and so whereas in the US because um and so whereas in the US because um and so whereas in the US because these parties have sort of formed these these parties have sort of formed these these parties have sort of formed these two alliances over the last few decades two alliances over the last few decades two alliances over the last few decades they've moved substantially the uh and they've moved substantially the uh and they've moved substantially the uh and and I think you know for it's easy again and I think you know for it's easy again and I think you know for it's easy again you'll see because you know the news is you'll see because you know the news is you'll see because you know the news is going to portray rightfully so the going to portray rightfully so the going to portray rightfully so the Republican party has moved to the right Republican party has moved to the right Republican party has moved to the right and in some ways people object to using and in some ways people object to using and in some ways people object to using the term right because it's more like the term right because it's more like the term right because it's more like it's nationalistic it's it's uh populist it's nationalistic it's it's uh populist it's nationalistic it's it's uh populist it's hard to describe as as Paul Ryan it's hard to describe as as Paul Ryan it's hard to describe as as Paul Ryan would say uh he was a traditional would say uh he was a traditional would say uh he was a traditional conservative or Jeb Bush would say that conservative or Jeb Bush would say that conservative or Jeb Bush would say that that's not really conservatism that's

that's not really conservatism that's that's not really conservatism that's populism um you know so but but populism um you know so but but populism um you know so but but certainly I mean the Democratic party certainly I mean the Democratic party certainly I mean the Democratic party has moved substantially To the Left To has moved substantially To the Left To has moved substantially To the Left To to the place where um you know where for to the place where um you know where for to the place where um you know where for many Christians they see um again you many Christians they see um again you many Christians they see um again you need to hear this because again people need to hear this because again people need to hear this because again people who are listening right now they're like who are listening right now they're like who are listening right now they're like well you know can't we just see the two well you know can't we just see the two well you know can't we just see the two parties as equal well I think that that parties as equal well I think that that parties as equal well I think that that when coach McCartney stood up at when coach McCartney stood up at when coach McCartney stood up at promisekeepers at the wall on the the promisekeepers at the wall on the the promisekeepers at the wall on the the mall the National Monument I was there mall the National Monument I was there mall the National Monument I was there million men um a lot of maybe some of million men um a lot of maybe some of million men um a lot of maybe some of your listeners were there and he said your listeners were there and he said your listeners were there and he said man we're we're in this we're man we're we're in this we're man we're we're in this we're Republicans and Democrats and Republicans and Democrats and Republicans and Democrats and independents and and I think in many independents and and I think in many independents and and I think in many ways that was a different day now it's ways that was a different day now it's ways that was a different day now it's harder because statistically and you harder because statistically and you harder because statistically and you people can get mad at me but these are people can get mad at me but these are people can get mad at me but these are just numbers math doesn't care about just numbers math doesn't care about just numbers math doesn't care about your feelings uh the more religious you your feelings uh the more religious you your feelings uh the more religious you are the more concern ative you are are the more concern ative you are are the more concern ative you are politically as a whole the more likely politically as a whole the more likely politically as a whole the more likely you are to be a republican the less you are to be a republican the less you are to be a republican the less religious you are uh the more likely you religious you are uh the more likely you religious you are uh the more likely you are to be a Democrat that's just that is are to be a Democrat that's just that is are to be a Democrat that's just that is literally simply math there out layers literally simply math there out layers literally simply math there out layers are the African-American Community uh are the African-American Community uh are the African-American Community uh but some correlation even there when you but some correlation even there when you but some correlation even there when you talk about levels of religious practice talk about levels of religious practice talk about levels of religious practice and uh how it expresses itself in Social and uh how it expresses itself in Social and uh how it expresses itself in Social conservative issues so so so here's the conservative issues so so so here's the conservative issues so so so here's the thing I don't want you to miss right how thing I don't want you to miss right how thing I don't want you to miss right how did we get so caught up in America in did we get so caught up in America in did we get so caught up in America in political parties well I think that political parties well I think that political parties well I think that Evangelical Evangelical Evangelical by and large found their views best by and large found their views best by and large found their views best advocated for and represented in a advocated for and represented in a advocated for and represented in a Republican party that intentionally Republican party that intentionally Republican party that intentionally remade itself to address its social

remade itself to address its social remade itself to address its social conservatives and therefore um you know conservatives and therefore um you know conservatives and therefore um you know they they ended up in that direction so they they ended up in that direction so they they ended up in that direction so statistically you know and again you I statistically you know and again you I statistically you know and again you I mean it doesn't take it takes one Google mean it doesn't take it takes one Google mean it doesn't take it takes one Google search to say Ed ster was publicly vocal search to say Ed ster was publicly vocal search to say Ed ster was publicly vocal that that President Trump was a was a that that President Trump was a was a that that President Trump was a was a bad idea um but the evangelicals didn't bad idea um but the evangelicals didn't bad idea um but the evangelicals didn't listen to me just so we're Crystal just listen to me just so we're Crystal just listen to me just so we're Crystal just so you know and overwhelmingly um voted so you know and overwhelmingly um voted so you know and overwhelmingly um voted for President Trump and I think in part for President Trump and I think in part for President Trump and I think in part because it's in part I think it's more because it's in part I think it's more because it's in part I think it's more than that I think the part that I'm than that I think the part that I'm than that I think the part that I'm going to get to that makes me uh going to get to that makes me uh going to get to that makes me uh disappoints me in part because they see disappoints me in part because they see disappoints me in part because they see the the the alternative to the Republican Party alternative to the Republican Party alternative to the Republican Party being the Democrat Party which um which being the Democrat Party which um which being the Democrat Party which um which is to them perceived as anti-faith uh is to them perceived as anti-faith uh is to them perceived as anti-faith uh very very radical on views of abortion very very radical on views of abortion very very radical on views of abortion again remember that uh Robie Wade would again remember that uh Robie Wade would again remember that uh Robie Wade would put the US in a grouping of Seven put the US in a grouping of Seven put the US in a grouping of Seven Nations that were the most extreme in Nations that were the most extreme in Nations that were the most extreme in the world on abortion including North the world on abortion including North the world on abortion including North Korea China um and others so not a not a Korea China um and others so not a not a Korea China um and others so not a not a mainstream position uh pretty radical on mainstream position uh pretty radical on mainstream position uh pretty radical on issues of gender ideology so for a bunch issues of gender ideology so for a bunch issues of gender ideology so for a bunch of them for people that and again this of them for people that and again this of them for people that and again this is really people get mad at me because is really people get mad at me because is really people get mad at me because I'm I'm not somebody who said that I I I'm I'm not somebody who said that I I I'm I'm not somebody who said that I I didn't use the word never um you know I didn't use the word never um you know I didn't use the word never um you know I I was pretty clear I thought president I was pretty clear I thought president I was pretty clear I thought president Trump was just because of character and Trump was just because of character and Trump was just because of character and other issues was uh I think we we could other issues was uh I think we we could other issues was uh I think we we could have chosen better and and again but have chosen better and and again but have chosen better and and again but evangelicals didn't listen to me but evangelicals didn't listen to me but evangelicals didn't listen to me but that being said um I I think that that being said um I I think that that being said um I I think that there's a whole lot of people who said there's a whole lot of people who said there's a whole lot of people who said man I I can't vote for a party that man I I can't vote for a party that man I I can't vote for a party that Advocates these things whether it's from

Advocates these things whether it's from Advocates these things whether it's from Barack Obama to Hillary Clinton to Joe Barack Obama to Hillary Clinton to Joe Barack Obama to Hillary Clinton to Joe Biden so I have to vote over here and I Biden so I have to vote over here and I Biden so I have to vote over here and I could totally understand that where I could totally understand that where I could totally understand that where I got concerned and I think you probably got concerned and I think you probably got concerned and I think you probably share that concern I and Christians share that concern I and Christians share that concern I and Christians around the world do you know I just around the world do you know I just around the world do you know I just returned from Europe and and over and returned from Europe and and over and returned from Europe and and over and over again the two the first question over again the two the first question over again the two the first question they ask me is there's 330 million they ask me is there's 330 million they ask me is there's 330 million people in your country are these the people in your country are these the people in your country are these the best two you could find but anyway best two you could find but anyway best two you could find but anyway that's a complicated process but for me that's a complicated process but for me that's a complicated process but for me um I would say uh to them I'm concerned um I would say uh to them I'm concerned um I would say uh to them I'm concerned when I see people who excuse the immoral when I see people who excuse the immoral when I see people who excuse the immoral Behavior who who dismiss the obvious Behavior who who dismiss the obvious Behavior who who dismiss the obvious character problems that are there and character problems that are there and character problems that are there and and and and just are wholeheartedly and and and just are wholeheartedly and and and just are wholeheartedly enthusiastically I want to be in that l enthusiastically I want to be in that l enthusiastically I want to be in that l as an Evangelical Christian and we see as an Evangelical Christian and we see as an Evangelical Christian and we see that we see some Christian leaders have that we see some Christian leaders have that we see some Christian leaders have done that that disturbs me um I I I done that that disturbs me um I I I done that that disturbs me um I I I think that um I think that that that think that um I think that that that think that um I think that that that when you talk about partisan man if you when you talk about partisan man if you when you talk about partisan man if you if you've turned your church into an if you've turned your church into an if you've turned your church into an ongoing political rally um I think ongoing political rally um I think ongoing political rally um I think you've made a mistake however if your you've made a mistake however if your you've made a mistake however if your church is unsure what you believe on the church is unsure what you believe on the church is unsure what you believe on the biggest issues of this day and one of biggest issues of this day and one of biggest issues of this day and one of the biggest issues of this day has to be the biggest issues of this day has to be the biggest issues of this day has to be gender and sexuality um if you're people gender and sexuality um if you're people gender and sexuality um if you're people think you're unsure on that or unclear I think you're unsure on that or unclear I think you're unsure on that or unclear I think Clarity is kindness and when you think Clarity is kindness and when you think Clarity is kindness and when you teach on those things that we do at my teach on those things that we do at my teach on those things that we do at my church church and and I'm guessing you church church and and I'm guessing you church church and and I'm guessing you do it yours people see those as do it yours people see those as do it yours people see those as political when they're biblical issues political when they're biblical issues political when they're biblical issues which do indeed have political which do indeed have political which do indeed have political ramifications which have led to the ramifications which have led to the ramifications which have led to the overwhelming majority in a two-party overwhelming majority in a two-party overwhelming majority in a two-party system to end up on the more system to end up on the more system to end up on the more conservative party even with all the the

conservative party even with all the the conservative party even with all the the the bad things that come with it again the bad things that come with it again the bad things that come with it again people again don't send me letters I'm people again don't send me letters I'm people again don't send me letters I'm just talking about math and what caused just talking about math and what caused just talking about math and what caused the math and the reality is if you are a the math and the reality is if you are a the math and the reality is if you are a if you're a an atheist irreligious if you're a an atheist irreligious if you're a an atheist irreligious you're almost always a Democrat and if you're almost always a Democrat and if you're almost always a Democrat and if you're uh you know Evangelical who's you're uh you know Evangelical who's you're uh you know Evangelical who's super engaged you're almost always a super engaged you're almost always a super engaged you're almost always a Republican and there are things that Republican and there are things that Republican and there are things that have caused that I think the caution I have caused that I think the caution I have caused that I think the caution I want to say is man don't don't Define want to say is man don't don't Define want to say is man don't don't Define your ministry by things that are how we your ministry by things that are how we your ministry by things that are how we you know because we all when we vote we you know because we all when we vote we you know because we all when we vote we make a complex series of discussions make a complex series of discussions make a complex series of discussions about what's the best way to advance about what's the best way to advance about what's the best way to advance what we think is the best course of what we think is the best course of what we think is the best course of action for our country um is is for me I action for our country um is is for me I action for our country um is is for me I want to teach these biblical issues so I want to teach these biblical issues so I want to teach these biblical issues so I teach about I'm answering these teach about I'm answering these teach about I'm answering these questions too long I apologize but I'm questions too long I apologize but I'm questions too long I apologize but I'm teaching issues about life and I'm teaching issues about life and I'm teaching issues about life and I'm teaching issues about how we speak about teaching issues about how we speak about teaching issues about how we speak about immigrants and refugees and I'm teaching immigrants and refugees and I'm teaching immigrants and refugees and I'm teaching issues about um about morality and issues about um about morality and issues about um about morality and sexuality and gender and I'm I'm sexuality and gender and I'm I'm sexuality and gender and I'm I'm teaching about you know H how how we teaching about you know H how how we teaching about you know H how how we deal with issues of of of of race and deal with issues of of of of race and deal with issues of of of of race and Injustice that are here and and from all Injustice that are here and and from all Injustice that are here and and from all those things people have to then make a those things people have to then make a those things people have to then make a voting decision which which I will voting decision which which I will voting decision which which I will respect because that's how our democracy respect because that's how our democracy respect because that's how our democracy works but I also understand why people works but I also understand why people works but I also understand why people end up more in one party than the other end up more in one party than the other end up more in one party than the other in evangelicalism in 2024 there's a lot in evangelicalism in 2024 there's a lot in evangelicalism in 2024 there's a lot of things I want to follow up on but of things I want to follow up on but of things I want to follow up on but what I'd like to ask is you're known what I'd like to ask is you're known what I'd like to ask is you're known generally as a conservative right generally as a conservative right generally as a conservative right theologically conservative probably theologically conservative probably theologically conservative probably politically conservative I would love to politically conservative I would love to politically conservative I would love to know what happened you know what kind of

know what happened you know what kind of know what happened you know what kind of feedback did you get when you spoke out feedback did you get when you spoke out feedback did you get when you spoke out against Donald Trump because you did against Donald Trump because you did against Donald Trump because you did that not as a leftist but as a as as one that not as a leftist but as a as as one that not as a leftist but as a as as one of the tribe what what happened to you of the tribe what what happened to you of the tribe what what happened to you when you made that pronouncement when you made that pronouncement when you made that pronouncement um in past elections well I'm trying to um in past elections well I'm trying to um in past elections well I'm trying to remember some of the context so you know remember some of the context so you know remember some of the context so you know I was asked to be on Trump's advisory I was asked to be on Trump's advisory I was asked to be on Trump's advisory Council so and I I wrote about that Council so and I I wrote about that Council so and I I wrote about that later yeah but they reached out to a lot later yeah but they reached out to a lot later yeah but they reached out to a lot of evangelicals to try to be on the of evangelicals to try to be on the of evangelicals to try to be on the advisory Council I I didn't think it was advisory Council I I didn't think it was advisory Council I I didn't think it was uh helpful I I'm very pleased I made uh helpful I I'm very pleased I made uh helpful I I'm very pleased I made that decision not to I mean I think at that decision not to I mean I think at that decision not to I mean I think at the end of the day um I mean I don't the end of the day um I mean I don't the end of the day um I mean I don't know I know you hear stories about you know I know you hear stories about you know I know you hear stories about you know my life was ruined or things of know my life was ruined or things of know my life was ruined or things of that sort I mean people disagree with me that sort I mean people disagree with me that sort I mean people disagree with me some some sometimes people I I think some some sometimes people I I think some some sometimes people I I think part of the challenge today is is that part of the challenge today is is that part of the challenge today is is that for some Christians and it's not it's for some Christians and it's not it's for some Christians and it's not it's not like the overwhelming view for some not like the overwhelming view for some not like the overwhelming view for some Christians they are unable to Christians they are unable to Christians they are unable to separate some separate some separate some ideological and voting decisions from ideological and voting decisions from ideological and voting decisions from theological ones so I'm I'm I am theological ones so I'm I'm I am theological ones so I'm I'm I am theologically conservative I'm a theologically conservative I'm a theologically conservative I'm a conservative Evangelical and so the fact conservative Evangelical and so the fact conservative Evangelical and so the fact that I was not supportive of President that I was not supportive of President that I was not supportive of President Trump uh meant uh for some people that Trump uh meant uh for some people that Trump uh meant uh for some people that that meant I was supportive of the other that meant I was supportive of the other that meant I was supportive of the other you know but the thing for me it's it's you know but the thing for me it's it's you know but the thing for me it's it's kind of hard to like if you Google Ed kind of hard to like if you Google Ed kind of hard to like if you Google Ed ster and Hillary Clinton you'll see CNN ster and Hillary Clinton you'll see CNN ster and Hillary Clinton you'll see CNN references you'll see this where're references you'll see this where're references you'll see this where're we're over and over again you know I we're over and over again you know I we're over and over again you know I pointed out just how how far we went pointed out just how how far we went pointed out just how how far we went from Hillary Clinton once said we want from Hillary Clinton once said we want from Hillary Clinton once said we want abortion to be safe legal and rare to abortion to be safe legal and rare to abortion to be safe legal and rare to where it's a central reality uh abortion

where it's a central reality uh abortion where it's a central reality uh abortion in extreme and a very narrow you know in extreme and a very narrow you know in extreme and a very narrow you know group of countries in the world so uh group of countries in the world so uh group of countries in the world so uh and similarly you know I've written and similarly you know I've written and similarly you know I've written about um Barack Obama uh Joe Biden I about um Barack Obama uh Joe Biden I about um Barack Obama uh Joe Biden I mean I I again I I couldn't and I've mean I I again I I couldn't and I've mean I I again I I couldn't and I've been very clear equal opportunity in been very clear equal opportunity in been very clear equal opportunity in terms of your well I think you should terms of your well I think you should terms of your well I think you should call balls and Strikes and I think some call balls and Strikes and I think some call balls and Strikes and I think some Sometimes some of the people who people Sometimes some of the people who people Sometimes some of the people who people got upset about all they became obsessed got upset about all they became obsessed got upset about all they became obsessed with was was Donald Trump well I just I with was was Donald Trump well I just I with was was Donald Trump well I just I gotta tell you I think the Biden gotta tell you I think the Biden gotta tell you I think the Biden Administration and their support for Administration and their support for Administration and their support for example of the equality act the equality example of the equality act the equality example of the equality act the equality Act is the biggest threat to religious Act is the biggest threat to religious Act is the biggest threat to religious liberty in the United States in our liberty in the United States in our liberty in the United States in our lifetime and and yet it's just casually lifetime and and yet it's just casually lifetime and and yet it's just casually supported and endorsed by the bid supported and endorsed by the bid supported and endorsed by the bid Administration in part because they know Administration in part because they know Administration in part because they know it won't pass but but you know the the it won't pass but but you know the the it won't pass but but you know the the Biden Administration has adopted Biden Administration has adopted Biden Administration has adopted policies that are pretty shocking that policies that are pretty shocking that policies that are pretty shocking that that Jimmy Carter would be shocked by that Jimmy Carter would be shocked by that Jimmy Carter would be shocked by and so I think that and I think it's and so I think that and I think it's and so I think that and I think it's hard for people to remember that Barack hard for people to remember that Barack hard for people to remember that Barack Obama when he was at the Civic Forum at Obama when he was at the Civic Forum at Obama when he was at the Civic Forum at Saddleback said he believed that Saddleback said he believed that Saddleback said he believed that marriage was between one man and one marriage was between one man and one marriage was between one man and one woman because that's what the scriptures woman because that's what the scriptures woman because that's what the scriptures teach that's Barack Obama you know the teach that's Barack Obama you know the teach that's Barack Obama you know the first term um and then later changes first term um and then later changes first term um and then later changes mind I think citing the golden rule or mind I think citing the golden rule or mind I think citing the golden rule or or something of that effect so I guess or something of that effect so I guess or something of that effect so I guess for me I I mean I've been been I get a for me I I mean I've been been I get a for me I I mean I've been been I get a lot of hate mail but most of the hate lot of hate mail but most of the hate lot of hate mail but most of the hate mail I mean not a lot I get some but mail I mean not a lot I get some but mail I mean not a lot I get some but most of it is driven by the fact that most of it is driven by the fact that most of it is driven by the fact that people don't have I think the ability to people don't have I think the ability to people don't have I think the ability to say that someone could be theologically say that someone could be theologically say that someone could be theologically conservative and think that um you know conservative and think that um you know conservative and think that um you know that that that president president Trump was a bad

president president Trump was a bad president president Trump was a bad choice and president and President Biden choice and president and President Biden choice and president and President Biden was a bad choice um and but also I mean was a bad choice um and but also I mean was a bad choice um and but also I mean it's on other things too I think that it's on other things too I think that it's on other things too I think that there are still times and places where there are still times and places where there are still times and places where past racism still injects itself into past racism still injects itself into past racism still injects itself into the president in systemic ways so wait the president in systemic ways so wait the president in systemic ways so wait what that theologically can can can we what that theologically can can can we what that theologically can can can we think that because what happens is think that because what happens is think that because what happens is people tend to um they collate they Co people tend to um they collate they Co people tend to um they collate they Co EXC me they correlate things so um I I EXC me they correlate things so um I I EXC me they correlate things so um I I do think that uh you know covid is co do think that uh you know covid is co do think that uh you know covid is co was real and it was a it was a real was real and it was a it was a real was real and it was a it was a real pandemic well okay if you think that now pandemic well okay if you think that now pandemic well okay if you think that now I think that many places overreacted and I think that many places overreacted and I think that many places overreacted and I was you know never ient I think I was you know never ient I think I was you know never ient I think mandates were like not I've never mandates were like not I've never mandates were like not I've never supported mandates but what happened is supported mandates but what happened is supported mandates but what happened is you sort of get and they're like okay you sort of get and they're like okay you sort of get and they're like okay this person's not on our side because this person's not on our side because this person's not on our side because our side's all in for this political our side's all in for this political our side's all in for this political view and I guess you know you don't want view and I guess you know you don't want view and I guess you know you don't want to simplify things but I refuse to tie to simplify things but I refuse to tie to simplify things but I refuse to tie my allegiance so tightly to the to the my allegiance so tightly to the to the my allegiance so tightly to the to the you know to the donkey and to the you know to the donkey and to the you know to the donkey and to the elephant that's tied to the lamb and I elephant that's tied to the lamb and I elephant that's tied to the lamb and I know that's simplified uh but at the end know that's simplified uh but at the end know that's simplified uh but at the end of the day I'm comfortable and my of the day I'm comfortable and my of the day I'm comfortable and my conscience is is settled that um that I conscience is is settled that um that I conscience is is settled that um that I want to be I am a theologically want to be I am a theologically want to be I am a theologically conservative and you are right you ask conservative and you are right you ask conservative and you are right you ask if I'm politically conservative if I uh if I'm politically conservative if I uh if I'm politically conservative if I uh I would be on the political conservative I would be on the political conservative I would be on the political conservative side of things um I I I and I I think side of things um I I I and I I think side of things um I I I and I I think that that does probably better for a that that does probably better for a that that does probably better for a country long term I think I think time country long term I think I think time country long term I think I think time and history has proven that thing but I and history has proven that thing but I and history has proven that thing but I also think for example I think taxes are also think for example I think taxes are also think for example I think taxes are too high in California that's not a too high in California that's not a too high in California that's not a shock I think tax are die in California shock I think tax are die in California shock I think tax are die in California but Jesus never gives us the right

but Jesus never gives us the right but Jesus never gives us the right marginal tax rate so I like I don't marginal tax rate so I like I don't marginal tax rate so I like I don't spend a lot of my voted according spend a lot of my voted according spend a lot of my voted according probably to that what I believe but my probably to that what I believe but my probably to that what I believe but my public view of California would be public view of California would be public view of California would be around we got to continue Advocate around we got to continue Advocate around we got to continue Advocate religious liberty we we have you know religious liberty we we have you know religious liberty we we have you know just really shocking abortion laws here just really shocking abortion laws here just really shocking abortion laws here that uh among many other things how do that uh among many other things how do that uh among many other things how do we care for the poor how do we care we care for the poor how do we care we care for the poor how do we care downtrodden one out of three homeless downtrodden one out of three homeless downtrodden one out of three homeless people in America are in California people in America are in California people in America are in California right now how do we deal with our right now how do we deal with our right now how do we deal with our homeless crisis so I think there's as a homeless crisis so I think there's as a homeless crisis so I think there's as a Christian leader I'm not a politician so Christian leader I'm not a politician so Christian leader I'm not a politician so I you know I think in general taxes are I you know I think in general taxes are I you know I think in general taxes are too high but that doesn't mean that too high but that doesn't mean that too high but that doesn't mean that that's a driving part of my Ministry that's a driving part of my Ministry that's a driving part of my Ministry where some of these other issues I I where some of these other issues I I where some of these other issues I I think we're seeing the destruction that think we're seeing the destruction that think we're seeing the destruction that comes from a poor understanding of comes from a poor understanding of comes from a poor understanding of sexuality and gender and uh and I think sexuality and gender and uh and I think sexuality and gender and uh and I think we see a lot of it in California and I we see a lot of it in California and I we see a lot of it in California and I want us to be the people of God who want us to be the people of God who want us to be the people of God who teach a countercultural message about teach a countercultural message about teach a countercultural message about some of those issues I probably sound some of those issues I probably sound some of those issues I probably sound like very conservative to you but at the like very conservative to you but at the like very conservative to you but at the same time I know you care about similar same time I know you care about similar same time I know you care about similar of these issues as well I think in the of these issues as well I think in the of these issues as well I think in the Seeker movement and we're both old Seeker movement and we're both old Seeker movement and we're both old enough to remember that oh yeah in the enough to remember that oh yeah in the enough to remember that oh yeah in the Seeker movement our idea was you'd sort Seeker movement our idea was you'd sort Seeker movement our idea was you'd sort of hide out not Hideout too strong it of hide out not Hideout too strong it of hide out not Hideout too strong it sounds dismissive what they're doing you sounds dismissive what they're doing you sounds dismissive what they're doing you wouldn't talk about publicly uh wouldn't talk about publicly uh wouldn't talk about publicly uh controversial things and I think a lot controversial things and I think a lot controversial things and I think a lot of people sort of Carri That Into You of people sort of Carri That Into You of people sort of Carri That Into You know when we lost our home field know when we lost our home field know when we lost our home field advantage and maybe we'll hide out in advantage and maybe we'll hide out in advantage and maybe we'll hide out in the basement and this will pass I don't the basement and this will pass I don't the basement and this will pass I don't think that's the way to go I think think that's the way to go I think think that's the way to go I think Clarity is kindness but I think Clarity is kindness but I think Clarity is kindness but I think partisanism actually confuses biblical partisanism actually confuses biblical partisanism actually confuses biblical Clarity so you want to be biblically Clarity so you want to be biblically Clarity so you want to be biblically clear not partisan and just so we clear clear not partisan and just so we clear clear not partisan and just so we clear Define the word partisan as over overly

Define the word partisan as over overly Define the word partisan as over overly and overtly connected to one party and overtly connected to one party and overtly connected to one party rather than teaching the scriptures that rather than teaching the scriptures that rather than teaching the scriptures that indeed in the world in which we live indeed in the world in which we live indeed in the world in which we live people may end up choosing their parties people may end up choosing their parties people may end up choosing their parties on the basis of on the basis of on the basis of that I want to unpack that a little bit that I want to unpack that a little bit that I want to unpack that a little bit so Clarity is kindness tribalism and so Clarity is kindness tribalism and so Clarity is kindness tribalism and partisanship confuses it partisanship confuses it partisanship confuses it yeah let's go there yeah so um I think yeah let's go there yeah so um I think yeah let's go there yeah so um I think where it confuses it like all right so where it confuses it like all right so where it confuses it like all right so let's say that um I want to I take a let's say that um I want to I take a let's say that um I want to I take a clear biblical stand on some issues clear biblical stand on some issues clear biblical stand on some issues about the confusion of sexuality and about the confusion of sexuality and about the confusion of sexuality and gender in our world today which we do gender in our world today which we do gender in our world today which we do and I do and take but I mean I I wrote and I do and take but I mean I I wrote and I do and take but I mean I I wrote in the of USA Today um you know in the of USA Today um you know in the of USA Today um you know defending biblical sexual ethics and I defending biblical sexual ethics and I defending biblical sexual ethics and I can assure you that was a very long two can assure you that was a very long two can assure you that was a very long two days it became the most read article on days it became the most read article on days it became the most read article on USA Today for I think they put it on the USA Today for I think they put it on the USA Today for I think they put it on the very top article on the very top right very top article on the very top right very top article on the very top right was my article it happened it happened was my article it happened it happened was my article it happened it happened when uh when Ora Roberts University made when uh when Ora Roberts University made when uh when Ora Roberts University made the sweet 16 which is a basketball the sweet 16 which is a basketball the sweet 16 which is a basketball tournament I learned and uh because I tournament I learned and uh because I tournament I learned and uh because I don't know anything about sports but my don't know anything about sports but my don't know anything about sports but my most read article ever most read article ever most read article ever was so I don't know anything about it was so I don't know anything about it was so I don't know anything about it also um so I to be clear on that issue also um so I to be clear on that issue also um so I to be clear on that issue but but when for example I'm I'm clear but but when for example I'm I'm clear but but when for example I'm I'm clear on that issue and I think that biblical on that issue and I think that biblical on that issue and I think that biblical morality matters right we could put up morality matters right we could put up morality matters right we could put up the Ten Commandments okay we could say the Ten Commandments okay we could say the Ten Commandments okay we could say thou shalt not commit adultery well I thou shalt not commit adultery well I thou shalt not commit adultery well I think those Ten Commandments would would think those Ten Commandments would would think those Ten Commandments would would be great applied to political candidates be great applied to political candidates be great applied to political candidates as well because that's what the as well because that's what the as well because that's what the evangelicals used to do we used to say

evangelicals used to do we used to say evangelicals used to do we used to say that you were morally disqualified if that you were morally disqualified if that you were morally disqualified if you lived an immoral life that your the you lived an immoral life that your the you lived an immoral life that your the private life couldn't be separated from private life couldn't be separated from private life couldn't be separated from the public life right and what happened the public life right and what happened the public life right and what happened is there actually a survey that I cited is there actually a survey that I cited is there actually a survey that I cited a few years ago about this uh a few years ago about this uh a few years ago about this uh evangelicals used to at the highest evangelicals used to at the highest evangelicals used to at the highest level say I'm paraphrasing it was a p level say I'm paraphrasing it was a p level say I'm paraphrasing it was a p rri poll that uh the personal lives of rri poll that uh the personal lives of rri poll that uh the personal lives of public officials you know matter and public officials you know matter and public officials you know matter and highest level was evangelicals and then highest level was evangelicals and then highest level was evangelicals and then it flipped so and now it's the lowest it flipped so and now it's the lowest it flipped so and now it's the lowest level so evangelicals are willing to level so evangelicals are willing to level so evangelicals are willing to overlook the IM immorality of public overlook the IM immorality of public overlook the IM immorality of public officials at a higher level than at officials at a higher level than at officials at a higher level than at least this was a few years ago when this least this was a few years ago when this least this was a few years ago when this poll came out and I wrote about it so poll came out and I wrote about it so poll came out and I wrote about it so what I would say is I think that what what I would say is I think that what what I would say is I think that what what you're saying is is that my what you're saying is is that my what you're saying is is that my political win is more important than my political win is more important than my political win is more important than my moral views and I don't think that's the moral views and I don't think that's the moral views and I don't think that's the case so I think if you're GNA vote for case so I think if you're GNA vote for case so I think if you're GNA vote for uh and I think either side you know uh and I think either side you know uh and I think either side you know let's say if you're gonna vote for let's say if you're gonna vote for let's say if you're gonna vote for president Trump I think it is right to president Trump I think it is right to president Trump I think it is right to say that this is a deeply flawed man who say that this is a deeply flawed man who say that this is a deeply flawed man who has who has has who has has who has exercised shockingly bad character at exercised shockingly bad character at exercised shockingly bad character at multiple times um now mind you I I think multiple times um now mind you I I think multiple times um now mind you I I think you could say about Joe Biden that um you could say about Joe Biden that um you could say about Joe Biden that um you know I mean that just I mean the you know I mean that just I mean the you know I mean that just I mean the policies are so well I've already gone policies are so well I've already gone policies are so well I've already gone through that shock shocking and through that shock shocking and through that shock shocking and egregious um and and also talk some egregious um and and also talk some egregious um and and also talk some about the the the character issues that about the the the character issues that about the the the character issues that are there I mean J doesn't take a lot of are there I mean J doesn't take a lot of are there I mean J doesn't take a lot of Googling to see you know the character Googling to see you know the character Googling to see you know the character issues that that have been throughout issues that that have been throughout issues that that have been throughout decades so so what I would say is is you

decades so so what I would say is is you decades so so what I would say is is you become partisan when it's like nope nope become partisan when it's like nope nope become partisan when it's like nope nope nope nope nope I'm gonna put all that nope nope nope I'm gonna put all that nope nope nope I'm gonna put all that aside and as long as we win and as long aside and as long as we win and as long aside and as long as we win and as long as our side wins because our side has as our side wins because our side has as our side wins because our side has the right party platform well what I the right party platform well what I the right party platform well what I would say is if that's where you are if would say is if that's where you are if would say is if that's where you are if you're like if if and again because I'm you're like if if and again because I'm you're like if if and again because I'm politically conservative right so if politically conservative right so if politically conservative right so if you're going to say that this approach you're going to say that this approach you're going to say that this approach to governance is better than that to governance is better than that to governance is better than that approach to governance I still think approach to governance I still think approach to governance I still think it's good to say and man we're in a it's good to say and man we're in a it's good to say and man we're in a really bad situation with somebody who really bad situation with somebody who really bad situation with somebody who really has evidence bad character and really has evidence bad character and really has evidence bad character and partisan people ignore any facts to the partisan people ignore any facts to the partisan people ignore any facts to the contrary uh and and and I I think that I contrary uh and and and I I think that I contrary uh and and and I I think that I think that people sense that in the think that people sense that in the think that people sense that in the church if you get up and also too you church if you get up and also too you church if you get up and also too you know here's one thing I would say too know here's one thing I would say too know here's one thing I would say too and again this is this offends people and again this is this offends people and again this is this offends people when I say it because I mean I've said when I say it because I mean I've said when I say it because I mean I've said it in public and people get offended is it in public and people get offended is it in public and people get offended is that if you want to reach the unchurched that if you want to reach the unchurched that if you want to reach the unchurched which I I assume that that's something which I I assume that that's something which I I assume that that's something you want to do uh the unchurched are you want to do uh the unchurched are you want to do uh the unchurched are overwhelmingly Democrat again don't get overwhelmingly Democrat again don't get overwhelmingly Democrat again don't get mad at me it takes a simple Google mad at me it takes a simple Google mad at me it takes a simple Google search I think you have Michael wear on search I think you have Michael wear on search I think you have Michael wear on coming up we we kind of Crossed Swords coming up we we kind of Crossed Swords coming up we we kind of Crossed Swords over this when he was running the Obama over this when he was running the Obama over this when he was running the Obama campaign um and uh they called the god campaign um and uh they called the god campaign um and uh they called the god Gap and I and I was well the reason Gap and I and I was well the reason Gap and I and I was well the reason there's a God Gap is because some of there's a God Gap is because some of there's a God Gap is because some of these policies that you're pursuing and these policies that you're pursuing and these policies that you're pursuing and so um but but what I would say is it's so um but but what I would say is it's so um but but what I would say is it's just the unchurch heavily lean Democrat just the unchurch heavily lean Democrat just the unchurch heavily lean Democrat so maybe if every time they come to so maybe if every time they come to so maybe if every time they come to church they hear how stupid Democrats church they hear how stupid Democrats church they hear how stupid Democrats are and every time look at your social are and every time look at your social are and every time look at your social media they see how stupid Democrats are media they see how stupid Democrats are media they see how stupid Democrats are it's going to be harder to reach them so it's going to be harder to reach them so it's going to be harder to reach them so I think you can be clear Clarity is I think you can be clear Clarity is I think you can be clear Clarity is kindness hold biblical values explain

kindness hold biblical values explain kindness hold biblical values explain those across a cultural divide that's SE those across a cultural divide that's SE those across a cultural divide that's SE them negatively but the reality is at them negatively but the reality is at them negatively but the reality is at the end of the day your views my views the end of the day your views my views the end of the day your views my views are out of step with contemporary are out of step with contemporary are out of step with contemporary culture so let's be the convictional culture so let's be the convictional culture so let's be the convictional minority let's say what we believe in minority let's say what we believe in minority let's say what we believe in why let's not the thing I guess what I'm why let's not the thing I guess what I'm why let's not the thing I guess what I'm saying is is partisan becomes that sort saying is is partisan becomes that sort saying is is partisan becomes that sort of tone that overwhelms your life and of tone that overwhelms your life and of tone that overwhelms your life and your ministry and and I'm guessing your ministry and and I'm guessing your ministry and and I'm guessing people listen to K new podcast they're people listen to K new podcast they're people listen to K new podcast they're not like they haven't overwhelmed their not like they haven't overwhelmed their not like they haven't overwhelmed their life in Ministry with partisan rhetoric life in Ministry with partisan rhetoric life in Ministry with partisan rhetoric but I bet right now they're thinking of but I bet right now they're thinking of but I bet right now they're thinking of somebody in their town or their city and somebody in their town or their city and somebody in their town or their city and so you're doing the series because you so you're doing the series because you so you're doing the series because you want people to avoid that and I think want people to avoid that and I think want people to avoid that and I think the way you avoid that in big picture is the way you avoid that in big picture is the way you avoid that in big picture is be clear on what you believe on biblical be clear on what you believe on biblical be clear on what you believe on biblical issues know that in America in 2024 issues know that in America in 2024 issues know that in America in 2024 people are going to assume that that people are going to assume that that people are going to assume that that makes some political statements because makes some political statements because makes some political statements because these do these things do have political these do these things do have political these do these things do have political ramifications but also speak up on some ramifications but also speak up on some ramifications but also speak up on some of those other issues so when I I mean I of those other issues so when I I mean I of those other issues so when I I mean I teach about these things I mean I teach teach about these things I mean I teach teach about these things I mean I teach about life and I teach about about life and I teach about about life and I teach about um you know God's designed for sexuality um you know God's designed for sexuality um you know God's designed for sexuality and I and I teach about the Imago day and I and I teach about the Imago day and I and I teach about the Imago day and how we speak of immigrants and and how we speak of immigrants and and how we speak of immigrants and refugees and and I and I for example big refugees and and I and I for example big refugees and and I and I for example big issue here it's not as big where you are issue here it's not as big where you are issue here it's not as big where you are in Canada but big issue here is the the in Canada but big issue here is the the in Canada but big issue here is the the border and immigration we haven't even border and immigration we haven't even border and immigration we haven't even talked about it well here's the thing I talked about it well here's the thing I talked about it well here's the thing I think Christians can disagree about the think Christians can disagree about the think Christians can disagree about the best border policy that part of the best border policy that part of the best border policy that part of the problem is there's a whole lot of people problem is there's a whole lot of people problem is there's a whole lot of people right now who because they correlate right now who because they correlate right now who because they correlate that with theological whatever so I

that with theological whatever so I that with theological whatever so I think Christians can disagree but we think Christians can disagree but we think Christians can disagree but we shouldn't disagree that we don't want to shouldn't disagree that we don't want to shouldn't disagree that we don't want to speak of immigrants and refugees as as speak of immigrants and refugees as as speak of immigrants and refugees as as one as animals or as or you know or more one as animals or as or you know or more one as animals or as or you know or more so so how we speak of that and I and I so so how we speak of that and I and I so so how we speak of that and I and I want you know so so I think all of those want you know so so I think all of those want you know so so I think all of those things I think if president Trump wins things I think if president Trump wins things I think if president Trump wins um it could be in and around the issue um it could be in and around the issue um it could be in and around the issue of immigration and I would just say that of immigration and I would just say that of immigration and I would just say that that you we even if you share president that you we even if you share president that you we even if you share president trumps US immigration how you articulate trumps US immigration how you articulate trumps US immigration how you articulate those there are people as you're a those there are people as you're a those there are people as you're a pastor and church leader there are pastor and church leader there are pastor and church leader there are people in your congregation or friends people in your congregation or friends people in your congregation or friends and family of your congregation about and family of your congregation about and family of your congregation about whom you are speaking and I just want to whom you are speaking and I just want to whom you are speaking and I just want to speak that way and that's true when it speak that way and that's true when it speak that way and that's true when it comes to sexuality that's true when it comes to sexuality that's true when it comes to sexuality that's true when it comes to immigration that's true when it comes to immigration that's true when it comes to immigration that's true when it comes to every issue and I think pastors comes to every issue and I think pastors comes to every issue and I think pastors have a higher calling than partisan have a higher calling than partisan have a higher calling than partisan rhetoric well and I think you know what rhetoric well and I think you know what rhetoric well and I think you know what you're suggesting and I want to spend you're suggesting and I want to spend you're suggesting and I want to spend some time on reconstructing or some time on reconstructing or some time on reconstructing or constructing a view that isn't as uh constructing a view that isn't as uh constructing a view that isn't as uh partisan but you know Kudos is for you partisan but you know Kudos is for you partisan but you know Kudos is for you because it takes a lot of of Courage you because it takes a lot of of Courage you because it takes a lot of of Courage you know if you're going to resist the know if you're going to resist the know if you're going to resist the labels you're doing a lot what Keller labels you're doing a lot what Keller labels you're doing a lot what Keller would talk about he's saying you know would talk about he's saying you know would talk about he's saying you know conservatives care about um you know low conservatives care about um you know low conservatives care about um you know low taxes and they care about right to life taxes and they care about right to life taxes and they care about right to life liberals tend to care about sexuality liberals tend to care about sexuality liberals tend to care about sexuality doesn't really matter you can do doesn't really matter you can do doesn't really matter you can do whatever you want and they're into whatever you want and they're into whatever you want and they're into redistributing wealth and he said you redistributing wealth and he said you redistributing wealth and he said you know a Biblical worldview actually does know a Biblical worldview actually does know a Biblical worldview actually does care about sexuality uh and it actually care about sexuality uh and it actually care about sexuality uh and it actually speaks to right to life and it speaks to speaks to right to life and it speaks to speaks to right to life and it speaks to love for the Immigrant and racial

love for the Immigrant and racial love for the Immigrant and racial Justice and it speaks to like it fuses Justice and it speaks to like it fuses Justice and it speaks to like it fuses it takes issues from the right and the it takes issues from the right and the it takes issues from the right and the left but it reinterprets them in a fresh left but it reinterprets them in a fresh left but it reinterprets them in a fresh gospel centered way and it sounds to me gospel centered way and it sounds to me gospel centered way and it sounds to me like that's in measure what you're doing like that's in measure what you're doing like that's in measure what you're doing that just because I happen to vote one that just because I happen to vote one that just because I happen to vote one way and my party doesn't fully reflect way and my party doesn't fully reflect way and my party doesn't fully reflect my views on my views on my views on XYZ uh I have a responsibility to teach XYZ uh I have a responsibility to teach XYZ uh I have a responsibility to teach through what the scripture teaches on through what the scripture teaches on through what the scripture teaches on XYZ is that basically I think that's I XYZ is that basically I think that's I XYZ is that basically I think that's I would not probably frame it the same way would not probably frame it the same way would not probably frame it the same way that Keller does I'm I'm badly that Keller does I'm I'm badly that Keller does I'm I'm badly paraphrasing no no but I think but I I paraphrasing no no but I think but I I paraphrasing no no but I think but I I don't think you I mean again I don't don't think you I mean again I don't don't think you I mean again I don't think that the two parties that were at think that the two parties that were at think that the two parties that were at a place where we were a few decades ago a place where we were a few decades ago a place where we were a few decades ago where the two parties were sort of like where the two parties were sort of like where the two parties were sort of like you know Christians could end up here you know Christians could end up here you know Christians could end up here Christians could end up there because Christians could end up there because Christians could end up there because some of the major issues of our day have some of the major issues of our day have some of the major issues of our day have been articulated in ways that are been articulated in ways that are been articulated in ways that are increasingly polarized so however I'm I increasingly polarized so however I'm I increasingly polarized so however I'm I don't like when I see the modern don't like when I see the modern don't like when I see the modern Republican party uh it disturbs me at at Republican party uh it disturbs me at at Republican party uh it disturbs me at at multiple levels um when I see the uh multiple levels um when I see the uh multiple levels um when I see the uh Democratic party I'm I'm shocked how far Democratic party I'm I'm shocked how far Democratic party I'm I'm shocked how far it's moved in just a few decades so I I it's moved in just a few decades so I I it's moved in just a few decades so I I think that you can so so most of what think that you can so so most of what think that you can so so most of what you said yes what I would probably take you said yes what I would probably take you said yes what I would probably take out of that equation is the idea that out of that equation is the idea that out of that equation is the idea that there's some sort of you know well there's some sort of you know well there's some sort of you know well they're they're like this and it's okay they're they're like this and it's okay they're they're like this and it's okay and they're like that and that's okay and they're like that and that's okay and they're like that and that's okay and I think that I think that the and I think that I think that the and I think that I think that the parties have moved themselves far too parties have moved themselves far too parties have moved themselves far too away on issues it's not just issu of away on issues it's not just issu of away on issues it's not just issu of Taxation it's issues of Liberty and and Taxation it's issues of Liberty and and Taxation it's issues of Liberty and and uh you know Rel Liberty and Public uh you know Rel Liberty and Public uh you know Rel Liberty and Public Access and more um and you know so I Access and more um and you know so I Access and more um and you know so I think that's worth saying however I I I

think that's worth saying however I I I think that's worth saying however I I I do think I do think that when I teach do think I do think that when I teach do think I do think that when I teach about these things the things that I about these things the things that I about these things the things that I choose to teach about are the things choose to teach about are the things choose to teach about are the things that I choose to receive complaints that I choose to receive complaints that I choose to receive complaints about so when I choose to teach on um about so when I choose to teach on um about so when I choose to teach on um sexuality I know I'm going to offend sexuality I know I'm going to offend sexuality I know I'm going to offend some people when I choose to teach on on some people when I choose to teach on on some people when I choose to teach on on immigration of course why would you not immigration of course why would you not immigration of course why would you not teach about what the Bible says on these teach about what the Bible says on these teach about what the Bible says on these topics or and the Bible's actually got topics or and the Bible's actually got topics or and the Bible's actually got some some some things to say I think some some some things to say I think some some some things to say I think sometimes people sort of try to apply sometimes people sort of try to apply sometimes people sort of try to apply thing anyway we won't get into all that thing anyway we won't get into all that thing anyway we won't get into all that because that's a complicated because that's a complicated because that's a complicated conversation but I think teaching on all conversation but I think teaching on all conversation but I think teaching on all of these things is good now don't misund of these things is good now don't misund of these things is good now don't misund understand um you know my church is a understand um you know my church is a understand um you know my church is a Mariners Church so we primarily teach Mariners Church so we primarily teach Mariners Church so we primarily teach through you know books of the Bible now through you know books of the Bible now through you know books of the Bible now you know so we're in Colossians now so you know so we're in Colossians now so you know so we're in Colossians now so but my I'll be talking from Colossians but my I'll be talking from Colossians but my I'll be talking from Colossians but probably after this airs and I'll be but probably after this airs and I'll be but probably after this airs and I'll be talking about you know let your how your talking about you know let your how your talking about you know let your how your speech you know how your speech matters speech you know how your speech matters speech you know how your speech matters I'll be talking about some of these I'll be talking about some of these I'll be talking about some of these issues so I will address some of these issues so I will address some of these issues so I will address some of these issues because these these are the issues because these these are the issues because these these are the issues of our day the preacher should issues of our day the preacher should issues of our day the preacher should take what is the uh what the text means take what is the uh what the text means take what is the uh what the text means and apply it to things that people are and apply it to things that people are and apply it to things that people are asking about what does it mean in this asking about what does it mean in this asking about what does it mean in this situation and certainly when it comes to situation and certainly when it comes to situation and certainly when it comes to the moment we live in people are asking the moment we live in people are asking the moment we live in people are asking well how do I speak on some of these well how do I speak on some of these well how do I speak on some of these issues um you know in Colossians chapter issues um you know in Colossians chapter issues um you know in Colossians chapter 4 you know how how do i h how do I speak 4 you know how how do i h how do I speak 4 you know how how do i h how do I speak uh you know speak and make it known as I uh you know speak and make it known as I uh you know speak and make it known as I should how do I act wisely towards should how do I act wisely towards should how do I act wisely towards Outsiders that's Colossians 45 making Outsiders that's Colossians 45 making Outsiders that's Colossians 45 making the most of the time so again I'm going the most of the time so again I'm going the most of the time so again I'm going to address some of the to address some of the to address some of the pressing issues of our day but but I'm

pressing issues of our day but but I'm pressing issues of our day but but I'm primarily and pastors and church leaders primarily and pastors and church leaders primarily and pastors and church leaders my role primarily is to teach people the my role primarily is to teach people the my role primarily is to teach people the word of God to help them walk in the word of God to help them walk in the word of God to help them walk in the power of the Holy Spirit their disciple power of the Holy Spirit their disciple power of the Holy Spirit their disciple and more but um I think the the danger and more but um I think the the danger and more but um I think the the danger on that the other side is I'm GNA hide on that the other side is I'm GNA hide on that the other side is I'm GNA hide out in the basement I'm not going to out in the basement I'm not going to out in the basement I'm not going to address any cultural issues and they go address any cultural issues and they go address any cultural issues and they go home and say okay but Pastor my kids are home and say okay but Pastor my kids are home and say okay but Pastor my kids are struggling with these questions and struggling with these questions and struggling with these questions and you're not addressing these questions at you're not addressing these questions at you're not addressing these questions at all and I think you know there's not one all and I think you know there's not one all and I think you know there's not one single inch of all all human domain over single inch of all all human domain over single inch of all all human domain over which Jesus has not cried that's mine which Jesus has not cried that's mine which Jesus has not cried that's mine and that includes that's K Kyper by the and that includes that's K Kyper by the and that includes that's K Kyper by the way um that includes um our political way um that includes um our political way um that includes um our political life so I think teaching about issues life so I think teaching about issues life so I think teaching about issues and and letting people think through and and letting people think through and and letting people think through together with us the ramifications of together with us the ramifications of together with us the ramifications of their vote really does matter I think I their vote really does matter I think I their vote really does matter I think I think we all probably have a different think we all probably have a different think we all probably have a different meter like a sensor of when it's too far meter like a sensor of when it's too far meter like a sensor of when it's too far and my I would imagine I could be wrong and my I would imagine I could be wrong and my I would imagine I could be wrong K newoff but I imagine that you might K newoff but I imagine that you might K newoff but I imagine that you might find find my teaching and preaching find find my teaching and preaching find find my teaching and preaching because the the center in Canada is to because the the center in Canada is to because the the center in Canada is to the left of the center in the US the the left of the center in the US the the left of the center in the US the sensibilities in Canada are it's a sensibilities in Canada are it's a sensibilities in Canada are it's a different filter uh but but but I think different filter uh but but but I think different filter uh but but but I think that U you have to in your culture in that U you have to in your culture in that U you have to in your culture in your time you have to execute the your time you have to execute the your time you have to execute the cultural moment and I think Christians cultural moment and I think Christians cultural moment and I think Christians are asking what do I do what do I are asking what do I do what do I are asking what do I do what do I believe and how does this impact my vote believe and how does this impact my vote believe and how does this impact my vote I think that's a good thing to teach I think that's a good thing to teach I think that's a good thing to teach well and I think there's a difference well and I think there's a difference well and I think there's a difference between the audience you're in like between the audience you're in like between the audience you're in like preaching California at least if you're preaching California at least if you're preaching California at least if you're reaching some unchurched people is going

reaching some unchurched people is going reaching some unchurched people is going to feel different than preaching in to feel different than preaching in to feel different than preaching in Texas is going to feel different than Texas is going to feel different than Texas is going to feel different than preaching in Toronto for sure because preaching in Toronto for sure because preaching in Toronto for sure because you have to understand how how is your you have to understand how how is your you have to understand how how is your audience going to hear this so I want audience going to hear this so I want audience going to hear this so I want you to speak to uh two groups of pastors you to speak to uh two groups of pastors you to speak to uh two groups of pastors there is and I think you're bang on there is and I think you're bang on there is and I think you're bang on correct and the real reason I want to do correct and the real reason I want to do correct and the real reason I want to do this series is to help find our way this series is to help find our way this series is to help find our way through a number of different interviews through a number of different interviews through a number of different interviews from a variety of perspectives on how to from a variety of perspectives on how to from a variety of perspectives on how to preach in a partisan age and lead in a preach in a partisan age and lead in a preach in a partisan age and lead in a partisan age without being swallowed by partisan age without being swallowed by partisan age without being swallowed by the partisanship if that makes sense you the partisanship if that makes sense you the partisanship if that makes sense you know like like just taking some line know like like just taking some line know like like just taking some line that came down from Washington that came down from Washington that came down from Washington regardless of who's in power and saying regardless of who's in power and saying regardless of who's in power and saying this is what we believe or something you this is what we believe or something you this is what we believe or something you read online so there's a group of read online so there's a group of read online so there's a group of pastors who have put their head in the pastors who have put their head in the pastors who have put their head in the sand ignored it and hope it goes away sand ignored it and hope it goes away sand ignored it and hope it goes away you're saying and other guests are you're saying and other guests are you're saying and other guests are saying that's not the best response the saying that's not the best response the saying that's not the best response the church can do better there's another church can do better there's another church can do better there's another group that tried in 2016 and tried in group that tried in 2016 and tried in group that tried in 2016 and tried in 2020 and particularly in 2020 coming on 2020 and particularly in 2020 coming on 2020 and particularly in 2020 coming on the heels of co uh got destroyed like the heels of co uh got destroyed like the heels of co uh got destroyed like lost half their church because they lost half their church because they lost half their church because they tried to say something and they said it tried to say something and they said it tried to say something and they said it the wrong way or they said it too loud the wrong way or they said it too loud the wrong way or they said it too loud or too soft or too nuanced in One or too soft or too nuanced in One or too soft or too nuanced in One Direction or another you know through no Direction or another you know through no Direction or another you know through no intention of their own uh just suffered intention of their own uh just suffered intention of their own uh just suffered tremendous personal and congregational tremendous personal and congregational tremendous personal and congregational loss maybe start with that group what loss maybe start with that group what loss maybe start with that group what would you say to that Pastor as they would you say to that Pastor as they would you say to that Pastor as they think about what's ahead in the next few think about what's ahead in the next few think about what's ahead in the next few weeks and months weeks and months weeks and months about the fact that perhaps they're gun about the fact that perhaps they're gun about the fact that perhaps they're gun shy to do so I think 2024 and I don't

shy to do so I think 2024 and I don't shy to do so I think 2024 and I don't know when these these broadcast but I know when these these broadcast but I know when these these broadcast but I think 24 2024 is going to be worse than think 24 2024 is going to be worse than think 24 2024 is going to be worse than 2020 and 2016 but we're prepared better 2020 and 2016 but we're prepared better 2020 and 2016 but we're prepared better for 2024 than we were in 2020 and for 2024 than we were in 2020 and for 2024 than we were in 2020 and 2016 so um a couple things happen first 2016 so um a couple things happen first 2016 so um a couple things happen first we've experienced and are experiencing we've experienced and are experiencing we've experienced and are experiencing what I call the great sort and the great what I call the great sort and the great what I call the great sort and the great sort I wrote this in an Outreach sort I wrote this in an Outreach sort I wrote this in an Outreach magazine column people can Google and magazine column people can Google and magazine column people can Google and find it pretty easily um the great sort find it pretty easily um the great sort find it pretty easily um the great sort is that increas inly people are choosing is that increas inly people are choosing is that increas inly people are choosing their churches based on ideological their churches based on ideological their churches based on ideological rather than theological factors so in rather than theological factors so in rather than theological factors so in other words if my church you know what other words if my church you know what other words if my church you know what it says about race or what it said about it says about race or what it said about it says about race or what it said about covid or what it said about what it says covid or what it said about what it says covid or what it said about what it says about politics I want a church that more about politics I want a church that more about politics I want a church that more aligns with those things so it might be aligns with those things so it might be aligns with those things so it might be somebody who like me is a conservative somebody who like me is a conservative somebody who like me is a conservative Evangelical uses the word inherency to Evangelical uses the word inherency to Evangelical uses the word inherency to describe his view of scripture as you describe his view of scripture as you describe his view of scripture as you know I've got all the the biblical Bona know I've got all the the biblical Bona know I've got all the the biblical Bona C days I teach at a conservative C days I teach at a conservative C days I teach at a conservative Evangelical Seminary um but you know but Evangelical Seminary um but you know but Evangelical Seminary um but you know but my church wasn't as aggressive on these my church wasn't as aggressive on these my church wasn't as aggressive on these topics as you like so people sorted topics as you like so people sorted topics as you like so people sorted themselves out and this happened 20 I themselves out and this happened 20 I themselves out and this happened 20 I mean 2016 some but 2020 most churches mean 2016 some but 2020 most churches mean 2016 some but 2020 most churches had a uh in in the US had people leave had a uh in in the US had people leave had a uh in in the US had people leave to go to churches to the right of them to go to churches to the right of them to go to churches to the right of them and uh you know and and I call that the and uh you know and and I call that the and uh you know and and I call that the great sword and some to the left of them great sword and some to the left of them great sword and some to the left of them you know because well you didn't say you know because well you didn't say you know because well you didn't say enough or you need to just get more enough or you need to just get more enough or you need to just get more involved and this you know let's become involved and this you know let's become involved and this you know let's become driven by these this social concern that driven by these this social concern that driven by these this social concern that we have so so the great sort has mostly we have so so the great sort has mostly we have so so the great sort has mostly taken place and most Pastors in churches

taken place and most Pastors in churches taken place and most Pastors in churches also learned that probably they made also learned that probably they made also learned that probably they made some mistakes in 2020 they might have some mistakes in 2020 they might have some mistakes in 2020 they might have they might have said you know we should they might have said you know we should they might have said you know we should have articulated this more clearly for have articulated this more clearly for have articulated this more clearly for example I think some people you know example I think some people you know example I think some people you know they jump on bandwagons or they use they jump on bandwagons or they use they jump on bandwagons or they use shaletts too much you know and and the shaletts too much you know and and the shaletts too much you know and and the end result people are like well those end result people are like well those end result people are like well those shaletts which you know the Old shaletts which you know the Old shaletts which you know the Old Testament reference to words that are Testament reference to words that are Testament reference to words that are like code words that mean something else like code words that mean something else like code words that mean something else and then those words change meaning and and then those words change meaning and and then those words change meaning and people were like well wait a second people were like well wait a second people were like well wait a second didn't you think that you know what I didn't you think that you know what I didn't you think that you know what I want to go to a church that's more want to go to a church that's more want to go to a church that's more aligned with where more on Aline so I aligned with where more on Aline so I aligned with where more on Aline so I think we've sort of learned I hope we've think we've sort of learned I hope we've think we've sort of learned I hope we've learned that we want to articulate these learned that we want to articulate these learned that we want to articulate these things biblically we don't have to uh things biblically we don't have to uh things biblically we don't have to uh jump on uh shth bandwagons or more um we jump on uh shth bandwagons or more um we jump on uh shth bandwagons or more um we want to choose what we say carefully and want to choose what we say carefully and want to choose what we say carefully and when and how we say it carefully so I when and how we say it carefully so I when and how we say it carefully so I think it's probably going to get more think it's probably going to get more think it's probably going to get more divided in 2024 again I'd be surprised divided in 2024 again I'd be surprised divided in 2024 again I'd be surprised if it didn't uh but again I think your if it didn't uh but again I think your if it didn't uh but again I think your church probably the most vocal people church probably the most vocal people church probably the most vocal people have already made a decision to go if have already made a decision to go if have already made a decision to go if they're going to go and what I would say they're going to go and what I would say they're going to go and what I would say is you you're gonna Steward Steward is you you're gonna Steward Steward is you you're gonna Steward Steward you've been through a painful thing you you've been through a painful thing you you've been through a painful thing you you're talking about one group of PE p you're talking about one group of PE p you're talking about one group of PE p pastors who lost a lot of people you you pastors who lost a lot of people you you pastors who lost a lot of people you you want to Steward your voice and I'm not want to Steward your voice and I'm not want to Steward your voice and I'm not saying you didn't Ste your voice well saying you didn't Ste your voice well saying you didn't Ste your voice well last time I don't know where you are and last time I don't know where you are and last time I don't know where you are and that looks very different in Rome that looks very different in Rome that looks very different in Rome Georgia uh than it does in you know in Georgia uh than it does in you know in Georgia uh than it does in you know in in Sacramento California so um so you in Sacramento California so um so you in Sacramento California so um so you want to Steward your voice carefully you want to Steward your voice carefully you want to Steward your voice carefully you want to frame things around biblical want to frame things around biblical want to frame things around biblical rather than ideological categories when rather than ideological categories when rather than ideological categories when you can I'm not saying those don't have

you can I'm not saying those don't have you can I'm not saying those don't have some overlap they do um and and again I some overlap they do um and and again I some overlap they do um and and again I would just I I would avoid the would just I I would avoid the would just I I would avoid the bandwagoning and the shibolet that I bandwagoning and the shibolet that I bandwagoning and the shibolet that I think became an issue for some people in think became an issue for some people in think became an issue for some people in the last few years you know one of the the last few years you know one of the the last few years you know one of the other realities that's different from other realities that's different from other realities that's different from 20124 I mean you've seen the Barna data 20124 I mean you've seen the Barna data 20124 I mean you've seen the Barna data that says you know how many pastors have that says you know how many pastors have that says you know how many pastors have seriously given con consideration seriously given con consideration seriously given con consideration leaving Ministry a lot of them actually leaving Ministry a lot of them actually leaving Ministry a lot of them actually left when 40 when it was 42% a lot of left when 40 when it was 42% a lot of left when 40 when it was 42% a lot of them left I am working Hands-On with a them left I am working Hands-On with a them left I am working Hands-On with a lot of nextg leaders they're 30 to 40 lot of nextg leaders they're 30 to 40 lot of nextg leaders they're 30 to 40 years old they took over from an years old they took over from an years old they took over from an incumbent Pastor who sometime in incumbent Pastor who sometime in incumbent Pastor who sometime in 20221 those two years stepped out and 20221 those two years stepped out and 20221 those two years stepped out and this is their first rodeo so the this is their first rodeo so the this is their first rodeo so the congregation shook down a lot of congregation shook down a lot of congregation shook down a lot of churches have found that probably 30 to churches have found that probably 30 to churches have found that probably 30 to 40% of their people are new since 2020 40% of their people are new since 2020 40% of their people are new since 2020 when you see those Dynamics what comes when you see those Dynamics what comes when you see those Dynamics what comes to mind and what advice do you have for to mind and what advice do you have for to mind and what advice do you have for those leaders yeah so the great sort those leaders yeah so the great sort those leaders yeah so the great sort also was kind of accompanied also was kind of accompanied also was kind of accompanied simultaneously some people went to the simultaneously some people went to the simultaneously some people went to the the most ideologically driven people who the most ideologically driven people who the most ideologically driven people who their Church choice is going to be their Church choice is going to be their Church choice is going to be driven ideologically have made that driven ideologically have made that driven ideologically have made that ideological choice so so that's probably ideological choice so so that's probably ideological choice so so that's probably the worst of that the most extreme the worst of that the most extreme the worst of that the most extreme people have already shifted yeah though people have already shifted yeah though people have already shifted yeah though I imagine they wouldn't call themselves I imagine they wouldn't call themselves I imagine they wouldn't call themselves extreme but yes the people who are clear extreme but yes the people who are clear extreme but yes the people who are clear views that's where they have the views that's where they have the views that's where they have the strongest views and and they've probably strongest views and and they've probably strongest views and and they've probably done that so what seemed to happen is is done that so what seemed to happen is is done that so what seemed to happen is is that and we saw you know we talked about that and we saw you know we talked about that and we saw you know we talked about some of this some of the research we did some of this some of the research we did some of this some of the research we did in and after in and immediately after Co in and after in and immediately after Co in and after in and immediately after Co is uh for some uh I I talk about the is uh for some uh I I talk about the is uh for some uh I I talk about the third the third the third and a third so third the third the third and a third so third the third the third and a third so I'll I'll quickly describe so in because

I'll I'll quickly describe so in because I'll I'll quickly describe so in because most churches from 2019 to most churches from 2019 to most churches from 2019 to 2021 their giving was actually up in 2021 their giving was actually up in 2021 their giving was actually up in 2021 um and their giving was up most not 2021 um and their giving was up most not 2021 um and their giving was up most not all but most churches giving was up and all but most churches giving was up and all but most churches giving was up and attendance was down by the time they got attendance was down by the time they got attendance was down by the time they got to 2021 and to 2021 and to 2021 and 2022 so what seemed to have happened if 2022 so what seemed to have happened if 2022 so what seemed to have happened if you take a church of a third let's say you take a church of a third let's say you take a church of a third let's say 100 people let's say it's a 100 100 people let's say it's a 100 100 people let's say it's a 100 Pentecostals in a wonderful church I was Pentecostals in a wonderful church I was Pentecostals in a wonderful church I was someone was talking about last time I someone was talking about last time I someone was talking about last time I preached in Canada I was with a Canadian preached in Canada I was with a Canadian preached in Canada I was with a Canadian said you preached that a wonderful said you preached that a wonderful said you preached that a wonderful Pentecostal Church Miracle family Pentecostal Church Miracle family Pentecostal Church Miracle family Tabernacle in a taml church I think it Tabernacle in a taml church I think it Tabernacle in a taml church I think it was in in the GTA there and so look at a was in in the GTA there and so look at a was in in the GTA there and so look at a 100 Pentecostals the most involved 100 Pentecostals the most involved 100 Pentecostals the most involved people in a Pentecostal Church sit up people in a Pentecostal Church sit up people in a Pentecostal Church sit up front that's why you want to preach at a front that's why you want to preach at a front that's why you want to preach at a Pentecostal church because they're right Pentecostal church because they're right Pentecostal church because they're right there amen and they're all in well it there amen and they're all in well it there amen and they're all in well it seems that in Co the most involved seems that in Co the most involved seems that in Co the most involved people got more involved and they gave people got more involved and they gave people got more involved and they gave more and they stepped up they stood out more and they stepped up they stood out more and they stepped up they stood out etc etc in the middle third they kind of etc etc in the middle third they kind of etc etc in the middle third they kind of stayed the same some of them were stayed the same some of them were stayed the same some of them were impacted by the great sort they're like impacted by the great sort they're like impacted by the great sort they're like why did my pastor say that and not this why did my pastor say that and not this why did my pastor say that and not this I'm going to go to a church that's more I'm going to go to a church that's more I'm going to go to a church that's more like I am aligned with ideologically and like I am aligned with ideologically and like I am aligned with ideologically and then uh the back third of a church let's then uh the back third of a church let's then uh the back third of a church let's say a church of a 100 Pentecostal Church say a church of a 100 Pentecostal Church say a church of a 100 Pentecostal Church of a 100 on a given Sunday back thirds of a 100 on a given Sunday back thirds of a 100 on a given Sunday back thirds 33 people on a Sunday but it's really 33 people on a Sunday but it's really 33 people on a Sunday but it's really like 150 people who rotate in and out of like 150 people who rotate in and out of like 150 people who rotate in and out of the church they come Christmas Easter the church they come Christmas Easter the church they come Christmas Easter 137 times so what seems to happen is is 137 times so what seems to happen is is 137 times so what seems to happen is is those people who were loely connected those people who were loely connected those people who were loely connected now are mostly if not completely and now are mostly if not completely and now are mostly if not completely and perhaps permanently disconnected so we perhaps permanently disconnected so we perhaps permanently disconnected so we lost the back rows of a lot of churches lost the back rows of a lot of churches lost the back rows of a lot of churches and a lot of those people then went to and a lot of those people then went to and a lot of those people then went to see what's going on at other churches

see what's going on at other churches see what's going on at other churches and I will tell you too what we finding and I will tell you too what we finding and I will tell you too what we finding in America it's actually in America it's actually in America it's actually disproportionately helped larger disproportionately helped larger disproportionately helped larger churches so what's happened is some of churches so what's happened is some of churches so what's happened is some of the largest churches have suddenly the largest churches have suddenly the largest churches have suddenly become much larger because people who become much larger because people who become much larger because people who were Loosely connected to a church of were Loosely connected to a church of were Loosely connected to a church of 200 when they got disconnected they said 200 when they got disconnected they said 200 when they got disconnected they said well I'll go check something else out well I'll go check something else out well I'll go check something else out there's already a trend to larger there's already a trend to larger there's already a trend to larger churches I'm not saying it's good I'm churches I'm not saying it's good I'm churches I'm not saying it's good I'm saying it's a trend so we have seen that saying it's a trend so we have seen that saying it's a trend so we have seen that so what you have is a new opportunity so what you have is a new opportunity so what you have is a new opportunity kind of so again the third remember the kind of so again the third remember the kind of so again the third remember the third front third got more engaged more third front third got more engaged more third front third got more engaged more involved middle Third Kind of held on involved middle Third Kind of held on involved middle Third Kind of held on some went with the great sort back third some went with the great sort back third some went with the great sort back third disconnected but then there's a new disconnected but then there's a new disconnected but then there's a new third that's kind of come from those third that's kind of come from those third that's kind of come from those other churches I wish there was a great other churches I wish there was a great other churches I wish there was a great Evangelistic Harvest going on now I do Evangelistic Harvest going on now I do Evangelistic Harvest going on now I do think there's some numbers that show us think there's some numbers that show us think there's some numbers that show us that young people are more open and that young people are more open and that young people are more open and we're seeing some more gospel response we're seeing some more gospel response we're seeing some more gospel response but what happen is you see all these but what happen is you see all these but what happen is you see all these sort of new people who loosened their sort of new people who loosened their sort of new people who loosened their connection to their Church during covid connection to their Church during covid connection to their Church during covid in the following years and now like well in the following years and now like well in the following years and now like well let me try something else out so it's a let me try something else out so it's a let me try something else out so it's a huge assimilation opportunity I I wish huge assimilation opportunity I I wish huge assimilation opportunity I I wish it was an Evangelistic opportunity I it was an Evangelistic opportunity I it was an Evangelistic opportunity I still think there's Evangelistic still think there's Evangelistic still think there's Evangelistic opportunity there but I think Church opportunity there but I think Church opportunity there but I think Church wise churches are teaching where they wise churches are teaching where they wise churches are teaching where they are what they believe helping people are what they believe helping people are what they believe helping people move in a pipeline to Greater move in a pipeline to Greater move in a pipeline to Greater involvement and engagement and really involvement and engagement and really involvement and engagement and really seizing this moment because I don't know seizing this moment because I don't know seizing this moment because I don't know you know those Loosely connected people you know those Loosely connected people you know those Loosely connected people they're going to disconnect again and they're going to disconnect again and they're going to disconnect again and six months I think Gary McIntosh one of six months I think Gary McIntosh one of six months I think Gary McIntosh one of my faculty and he wrote in finding them my faculty and he wrote in finding them my faculty and he wrote in finding them and keeping them years ago he said that and keeping them years ago he said that and keeping them years ago he said that you got about six months and then they you got about six months and then they you got about six months and then they disconnect and they try to connect disconnect and they try to connect disconnect and they try to connect somewhere else so this is the time to somewhere else so this is the time to somewhere else so this is the time to try to connect with some of those try to connect with some of those try to connect with some of those people so man there's so much there one

people so man there's so much there one people so man there's so much there one of the things you said I don't think I of the things you said I don't think I of the things you said I don't think I can let this go you mentioned that most can let this go you mentioned that most can let this go you mentioned that most unchurched people lean left now Ryan unchurched people lean left now Ryan unchurched people lean left now Ryan Burge I'm sure you've seen his data show Burge I'm sure you've seen his data show Burge I'm sure you've seen his data show that 17% of the people who I think it's that 17% of the people who I think it's that 17% of the people who I think it's roughly 17 18% of the people who use the roughly 17 18% of the people who use the roughly 17 18% of the people who use the term Evangelical are actually secular term Evangelical are actually secular term Evangelical are actually secular these days it's a political term right these days it's a political term right these days it's a political term right and it's the most educated people who and it's the most educated people who and it's the most educated people who tend to go to conservative churches the tend to go to conservative churches the tend to go to conservative churches the least educated who tend to be least educated who tend to be least educated who tend to be unaffiliated which is really some unaffiliated which is really some unaffiliated which is really some interesting Trends but I mean and what interesting Trends but I mean and what interesting Trends but I mean and what you just said about church growth really you just said about church growth really you just said about church growth really being consolidation transfer growth it's being consolidation transfer growth it's being consolidation transfer growth it's just well we move from this small Church just well we move from this small Church just well we move from this small Church to another large Church to another large Church to another large Church um do you think the church that one of um do you think the church that one of um do you think the church that one of the things that's at stake take and a the things that's at stake take and a the things that's at stake take and a bit of a loaded question so take it bit of a loaded question so take it bit of a loaded question so take it where you want is that we're kind of where you want is that we're kind of where you want is that we're kind of huddling down we're finding people who huddling down we're finding people who huddling down we're finding people who believe what we believe who think what believe what we believe who think what believe what we believe who think what we think that Outreach is at stake uh we think that Outreach is at stake uh we think that Outreach is at stake uh that we may not be doing a very good job that we may not be doing a very good job that we may not be doing a very good job of of of living a world leading you know of of of living a world leading you know of of of living a world leading you know reaching a world and the reason I want reaching a world and the reason I want reaching a world and the reason I want to ask that question is a lot of the to ask that question is a lot of the to ask that question is a lot of the people I know in Ministry are actually people I know in Ministry are actually people I know in Ministry are actually sincerely interested in reaching sincerely interested in reaching sincerely interested in reaching unchurched people and I'm just wondering unchurched people and I'm just wondering unchurched people and I'm just wondering how you do that where maybe their how you do that where maybe their how you do that where maybe their starting point is very different starting point is very different starting point is very different politically than where yours might be politically than where yours might be politically than where yours might be yeah I think that is part of the yeah I think that is part of the yeah I think that is part of the cultural divide now that's not yeah you cultural divide now that's not yeah you cultural divide now that's not yeah you the unchurch are not one thing there are the unchurch are not one thing there are the unchurch are not one thing there are things there's a group there's a group things there's a group there's a group things there's a group there's a group of things but as a whole there's really of things but as a whole there's really of things but as a whole there's really no statistical question that un no statistical question that un no statistical question that un unchurched people tend to be more unchurched people tend to be more unchurched people tend to be more Progressive as a whole yeah um but I

Progressive as a whole yeah um but I Progressive as a whole yeah um but I think that that you know as churches think that that you know as churches think that that you know as churches we're not Min we're not like reaching we're not Min we're not like reaching we're not Min we're not like reaching the whole we're reaching our community the whole we're reaching our community the whole we're reaching our community and for example in a whole lot of places and for example in a whole lot of places and for example in a whole lot of places one of the one of the most unchurched one of the one of the most unchurched one of the one of the most unchurched demographics is Young dis fected men and demographics is Young dis fected men and demographics is Young dis fected men and uh who are actually tend to be more uh who are actually tend to be more uh who are actually tend to be more conservative um who are kind of pushing conservative um who are kind of pushing conservative um who are kind of pushing back against the cultural moment and are back against the cultural moment and are back against the cultural moment and are not sure how to without getting not sure how to without getting not sure how to without getting cancelled or more so man I I would say cancelled or more so man I I would say cancelled or more so man I I would say and and you know the uh uh the great D and and you know the uh uh the great D and and you know the uh uh the great D churching talks about that I think churching talks about that I think churching talks about that I think that's helpful yeah um actually John that's helpful yeah um actually John that's helpful yeah um actually John stot talked about that we see this a lot stot talked about that we see this a lot stot talked about that we see this a lot in the UK where they say we have these in the UK where they say we have these in the UK where they say we have these strong Evangelical bastions in you know strong Evangelical bastions in you know strong Evangelical bastions in you know har Oxford and Cambridge which is true har Oxford and Cambridge which is true har Oxford and Cambridge which is true you know you can walk around Oxford and you know you can walk around Oxford and you know you can walk around Oxford and there's all there's Evangelical ministry there's all there's Evangelical ministry there's all there's Evangelical ministry here and Evangelical ministry here you here and Evangelical ministry here you here and Evangelical ministry here you go into that you Blue Collar you know go into that you Blue Collar you know go into that you Blue Collar you know rural area and you know highly rural area and you know highly rural area and you know highly dechurched and unchurched and young men dechurched and unchurched and young men dechurched and unchurched and young men are often among those who are the most are often among those who are the most are often among those who are the most unchurched so what I would say is is it unchurched so what I would say is is it unchurched so what I would say is is it it's so if I were looking for a it's so if I were looking for a it's so if I were looking for a receptive responsive group of people receptive responsive group of people receptive responsive group of people today uh I I would I would ask the today uh I I would I would ask the today uh I I would I would ask the question about those uh those question about those uh those question about those uh those irreligious kind of unsure about their irreligious kind of unsure about their irreligious kind of unsure about their future young men uh I think they're you future young men uh I think they're you future young men uh I think they're you know they're being drawn to the uh you know they're being drawn to the uh you know they're being drawn to the uh you know I mean sometimes in the in the know I mean sometimes in the in the know I mean sometimes in the in the worst example being drawn to the Andrew worst example being drawn to the Andrew worst example being drawn to the Andrew Tates of the world but also the Jordan Tates of the world but also the Jordan Tates of the world but also the Jordan Petersons of the world right so not in Petersons of the world right so not in Petersons of the world right so not in the same category which so we're clear the same category which so we're clear the same category which so we're clear as the worst example um and so what what as the worst example um and so what what as the worst example um and so what what does the gospel speak to them and and does the gospel speak to them and and does the gospel speak to them and and and how are churches going to engage and how are churches going to engage and how are churches going to engage them they look around them and say the

them they look around them and say the them they look around them and say the world's not not fair to me i' I'm losing world's not not fair to me i' I'm losing world's not not fair to me i' I'm losing opportunities the world seems to gone opportunities the world seems to gone opportunities the world seems to gone mad so but again let me come back to mad so but again let me come back to mad so but again let me come back to your question I I gave a little aside your question I I gave a little aside your question I I gave a little aside there because I think it's important but there because I think it's important but there because I think it's important but as a whole uh the I have a graph that I as a whole uh the I have a graph that I as a whole uh the I have a graph that I use in Christians in the age of outrage use in Christians in the age of outrage use in Christians in the age of outrage and I kind of explain that there are um and I kind of explain that there are um and I kind of explain that there are um four quadrants of um ctil quiles and four quadrants of um ctil quiles and four quadrants of um ctil quiles and that about 25% of Americas are are that about 25% of Americas are are that about 25% of Americas are are convictional Christian they use the word convictional Christian they use the word convictional Christian they use the word Christian and it kind of shapes their Christian and it kind of shapes their Christian and it kind of shapes their lives they're Catholic they're Mormon lives they're Catholic they're Mormon lives they're Catholic they're Mormon they're Evangelical not making a they're Evangelical not making a they're Evangelical not making a theological category just saying they theological category just saying they theological category just saying they use the word Christian and it really is use the word Christian and it really is use the word Christian and it really is important to them 25% or so uh maybe a important to them 25% or so uh maybe a important to them 25% or so uh maybe a little lower since I wrote the book little lower since I wrote the book little lower since I wrote the book because it was a few years ago um about because it was a few years ago um about because it was a few years ago um about 25% of Americans are congregationally 25% of Americans are congregationally 25% of Americans are congregationally Christian Christmas Easter married Christian Christmas Easter married Christian Christmas Easter married buried about 25% of Americans are buried about 25% of Americans are buried about 25% of Americans are culturally Christian and at that time it culturally Christian and at that time it culturally Christian and at that time it was 75% I'd lower those numbers now but was 75% I'd lower those numbers now but was 75% I'd lower those numbers now but but kind of 75% and then 25% was but kind of 75% and then 25% was but kind of 75% and then 25% was non-Christian or other and it's higher non-Christian or other and it's higher non-Christian or other and it's higher now so but what's happened is is that now so but what's happened is is that now so but what's happened is is that those nominal Christians those Loosely those nominal Christians those Loosely those nominal Christians those Loosely connected the cultural Christians the connected the cultural Christians the connected the cultural Christians the congregational Christians they've congregational Christians they've congregational Christians they've changed their views over the last couple changed their views over the last couple changed their views over the last couple decades so now if you're like to use decades so now if you're like to use decades so now if you're like to use research terms if you're like highly research terms if you're like highly research terms if you're like highly religious conviction Christian is what I religious conviction Christian is what I religious conviction Christian is what I I wrote this in a USA Today article if I wrote this in a USA Today article if I wrote this in a USA Today article if people are interested to but the chart people are interested to but the chart people are interested to but the chart wasn't the chart was in Christians of wasn't the chart was in Christians of wasn't the chart was in Christians of the age of outrage um and you're now on the age of outrage um and you're now on the age of outrage um and you're now on the wrong side of the cultural divide the wrong side of the cultural divide the wrong side of the cultural divide according to the culture because because according to the culture because because according to the culture because because irreligious people cultural Christians irreligious people cultural Christians irreligious people cultural Christians and even Loosely connected people in and even Loosely connected people in and even Loosely connected people in churches like the Christmas and Easter

churches like the Christmas and Easter churches like the Christmas and Easter people they're all on the other side and people they're all on the other side and people they're all on the other side and more Progressive like America Has more Progressive like America Has more Progressive like America Has Changed its mind about same-sex marriage Changed its mind about same-sex marriage Changed its mind about same-sex marriage with exception of very few States um with exception of very few States um with exception of very few States um Chang mind about well all kinds of Chang mind about well all kinds of Chang mind about well all kinds of things so you're on the other side of things so you're on the other side of things so you're on the other side of the cultural divide so what do you do at the cultural divide so what do you do at the cultural divide so what do you do at that point well I mean this is not an that point well I mean this is not an that point well I mean this is not an unusual place for Christians for 2,000 unusual place for Christians for 2,000 unusual place for Christians for 2,000 years yeah exactly and as the world has years yeah exactly and as the world has years yeah exactly and as the world has seeing that its own you know collapse of seeing that its own you know collapse of seeing that its own you know collapse of the modern experiment all around them the modern experiment all around them the modern experiment all around them the failure of the current world the failure of the current world the failure of the current world situation we can say hey yep we are situation we can say hey yep we are situation we can say hey yep we are different We Believe different here's different We Believe different here's different We Believe different here's what we believe we're not hiding it what we believe we're not hiding it what we believe we're not hiding it here's what happens when you believe here's what happens when you believe here's what happens when you believe what we believe and how you're Changed what we believe and how you're Changed what we believe and how you're Changed by the power of the gospel and by the power of the gospel and by the power of the gospel and invitations before you and until such invitations before you and until such invitations before you and until such time we're going to be your friends and time we're going to be your friends and time we're going to be your friends and we're going to be your neighbors and we're going to be your neighbors and we're going to be your neighbors and we're going to be your co-workers and we're going to be your co-workers and we're going to be your co-workers and we're going to be the ones who love you we're going to be the ones who love you we're going to be the ones who love you and show and share the love of Jesus to and show and share the love of Jesus to and show and share the love of Jesus to you we're going to be Winsome there's a you we're going to be Winsome there's a you we're going to be Winsome there's a bit of a war on Winsome right now in bit of a war on Winsome right now in bit of a war on Winsome right now in some quarters of the Christian some quarters of the Christian some quarters of the Christian discussion let me just say that being discussion let me just say that being discussion let me just say that being Winsome is not a cultural engagement Winsome is not a cultural engagement Winsome is not a cultural engagement strategy that changes with the time strategy that changes with the time strategy that changes with the time being Winsome is the way of Jesus so to being Winsome is the way of Jesus so to being Winsome is the way of Jesus so to be like Jesus engaging a broken and be like Jesus engaging a broken and be like Jesus engaging a broken and hurting world that finds our views hurting world that finds our views hurting world that finds our views perhaps out of touch uh perhaps perhaps out of touch uh perhaps perhaps out of touch uh perhaps dangerous depending on what state you're dangerous depending on what state you're dangerous depending on what state you're in or what person you're dealing with in or what person you're dealing with in or what person you're dealing with but we continue to show and share the but we continue to show and share the but we continue to show and share the love of Jesus to them that's the love of Jesus to them that's the love of Jesus to them that's the countercultural message that I think is countercultural message that I think is countercultural message that I think is going to make the difference and and let going to make the difference and and let going to make the difference and and let me just say too you know I'm a myologist me just say too you know I'm a myologist me just say too you know I'm a myologist so I'm always talking about engaging so I'm always talking about engaging so I'm always talking about engaging culture I'm not a politician I don't culture I'm not a politician I don't culture I'm not a politician I don't teach political Theory um I think teach political Theory um I think teach political Theory um I think there's all kinds of different ways

there's all kinds of different ways there's all kinds of different ways people are going to try to advocate for people are going to try to advocate for people are going to try to advocate for some of these things in the public some of these things in the public some of these things in the public political sphere but I'm talking about political sphere but I'm talking about political sphere but I'm talking about loving your neighbor and I think that's loving your neighbor and I think that's loving your neighbor and I think that's something every Pastor can teach every something every Pastor can teach every something every Pastor can teach every church member to do and that's going to church member to do and that's going to church member to do and that's going to build the bridges they might look at and build the bridges they might look at and build the bridges they might look at and Carrie they do they might say Carrie they do they might say Carrie they do they might say evangelicals are bad but they know that evangelicals are bad but they know that evangelicals are bad but they know that neighbor who goes to that wesleyian neighbor who goes to that wesleyian neighbor who goes to that wesleyian church every week as the one who mowed church every week as the one who mowed church every week as the one who mowed their lawn when they were sick and their lawn when they were sick and their lawn when they were sick and checked on them when their daughter checked on them when their daughter checked on them when their daughter wasn't doing well and I think that's wasn't doing well and I think that's wasn't doing well and I think that's ultimately how you break through some of ultimately how you break through some of ultimately how you break through some of the narratives of the day yeah and that the narratives of the day yeah and that the narratives of the day yeah and that goes back too we're preaching a Biblical goes back too we're preaching a Biblical goes back too we're preaching a Biblical worldview here not a partisan agenda worldview here not a partisan agenda worldview here not a partisan agenda right which okay want to do a bit of a right which okay want to do a bit of a right which okay want to do a bit of a lightning round uh really intriguing lightning round uh really intriguing lightning round uh really intriguing conversation but but let's uh let's conversation but but let's uh let's conversation but but let's uh let's break this down into Super practical if break this down into Super practical if break this down into Super practical if you're going to completely blow this you're going to completely blow this you're going to completely blow this election season as a pastor and you election season as a pastor and you election season as a pastor and you wanted to blow up your church and have wanted to blow up your church and have wanted to blow up your church and have all kinds of unintended consequences all kinds of unintended consequences all kinds of unintended consequences what would you do in other words what is what would you do in other words what is what would you do in other words what is the worst thing you could do some just the worst thing you could do some just the worst thing you could do some just just a short bullet list of some of the just a short bullet list of some of the just a short bullet list of some of the worst things you could do worst thing or worst things you could do worst thing or worst things you could do worst thing or things more than one you could you can things more than one you could you can things more than one you could you can you could give us a couple so I would you could give us a couple so I would you could give us a couple so I would say I would say um turning your church say I would say um turning your church say I would say um turning your church into an ongoing political rally uh into an ongoing political rally uh into an ongoing political rally uh you're just going to reach people who you're just going to reach people who you're just going to reach people who are different than you you'll attract a are different than you you'll attract a are different than you you'll attract a crowd who agrees with you but you're not crowd who agrees with you but you're not crowd who agrees with you but you're not going to reach a lot of people who are going to reach a lot of people who are going to reach a lot of people who are particularly different than you that's particularly different than you that's particularly different than you that's being like hyper partisan and that's being like hyper partisan and that's being like hyper partisan and that's there second thing is ignoring the there second thing is ignoring the there second thing is ignoring the issues um your people in your church issues um your people in your church issues um your people in your church want to know like where are you on some want to know like where are you on some want to know like where are you on some of these issues right now like they're of these issues right now like they're of these issues right now like they're having to deal with these things at work having to deal with these things at work having to deal with these things at work like they're they're going to work and like they're they're going to work and like they're they're going to work and you're you know you're a pastor and you're you know you're a pastor and you're you know you're a pastor and you're loving Jesus and no one's

you're loving Jesus and no one's you're loving Jesus and no one's pressing you at church that you have to pressing you at church that you have to pressing you at church that you have to align with things you don't agree with align with things you don't agree with align with things you don't agree with but they are at work so what how then but they are at work so what how then but they are at work so what how then shall I live Pastor I mean so so not shall I live Pastor I mean so so not shall I live Pastor I mean so so not answering some of those questions answering some of those questions answering some of those questions because you're afraid of the political because you're afraid of the political because you're afraid of the political ramifications of those things so what I ramifications of those things so what I ramifications of those things so what I would say there's ditches on both sides would say there's ditches on both sides would say there's ditches on both sides I guess you would you would often say I guess you would you would often say I guess you would you would often say and so so I think being being and so so I think being being and so so I think being being courageous means you're probably gonna courageous means you're probably gonna courageous means you're probably gonna tick some people off and and what I tick some people off and and what I tick some people off and and what I would say is if you went into Ministry would say is if you went into Ministry would say is if you went into Ministry you know because you didn't want to make you know because you didn't want to make you know because you didn't want to make people mad you you you chose badly people mad you you you chose badly people mad you you you chose badly anyway um you know if you wanted to make anyway um you know if you wanted to make anyway um you know if you wanted to make everyone happy you go sell ice cream but everyone happy you go sell ice cream but everyone happy you go sell ice cream but you know but but here's what I would say you know but but here's what I would say you know but but here's what I would say the number the percent of people are the number the percent of people are the number the percent of people are going to be mad at you on an ongoing going to be mad at you on an ongoing going to be mad at you on an ongoing basis is probably higher in 2024 than it basis is probably higher in 2024 than it basis is probably higher in 2024 than it was in 2016 or 2015 so you just have to was in 2016 or 2015 so you just have to was in 2016 or 2015 so you just have to I mean that's just part of being a I mean that's just part of being a I mean that's just part of being a leader is to speak up on some of these leader is to speak up on some of these leader is to speak up on some of these issues but what I would do is I would issues but what I would do is I would issues but what I would do is I would constantly come back to well how would constantly come back to well how would constantly come back to well how would you teach the Bible differently on this you teach the Bible differently on this you teach the Bible differently on this subject if you were me and if the answer subject if you were me and if the answer subject if you were me and if the answer is they the Bible says these things and is they the Bible says these things and is they the Bible says these things and you're teaching those things that the you're teaching those things that the you're teaching those things that the Bible says now again your audience is Bible says now again your audience is Bible says now again your audience is Broad I'm really making Evangelical Broad I'm really making Evangelical Broad I'm really making Evangelical assumptions there yeah no please but but assumptions there yeah no please but but assumptions there yeah no please but but I think you if you hold the Bible as I think you if you hold the Bible as I think you if you hold the Bible as authoritative and it is the source and authoritative and it is the source and authoritative and it is the source and the guide book and the directions for the guide book and the directions for the guide book and the directions for life and engagement then I want to keep life and engagement then I want to keep life and engagement then I want to keep rooting everything I say and drawing rooting everything I say and drawing rooting everything I say and drawing everything I from out of the scriptures everything I from out of the scriptures everything I from out of the scriptures and then say to people well I don't know and then say to people well I don't know and then say to people well I don't know where what you would disagree with where what you would disagree with where what you would disagree with because this is what the scriptures because this is what the scriptures because this is what the scriptures teach about partiality in James or about

teach about partiality in James or about teach about partiality in James or about life in the Psalms or about or about you life in the Psalms or about or about you life in the Psalms or about or about you know about the importance of men and know about the importance of men and know about the importance of men and women from every tongue tribe and nation women from every tongue tribe and nation women from every tongue tribe and nation in the Book of Revelation and more so in the Book of Revelation and more so in the Book of Revelation and more so teach those things what you do when you teach those things what you do when you teach those things what you do when you make the mistake is is is often you try make the mistake is is is often you try make the mistake is is is often you try to tie them in in ways that that that to tie them in in ways that that that to tie them in in ways that that that are already like associated with a whole are already like associated with a whole are already like associated with a whole group of people who hold these views ET group of people who hold these views ET group of people who hold these views ET so I say these words I'll probably make so I say these words I'll probably make so I say these words I'll probably make some people happy but I'll make some some people happy but I'll make some some people happy but I'll make some people unhappy say what the Bible people unhappy say what the Bible people unhappy say what the Bible teaches and you'll make lots of people teaches and you'll make lots of people teaches and you'll make lots of people unhappy but you'll do it to honor the unhappy but you'll do it to honor the unhappy but you'll do it to honor the Lord so let's do it flip side couple of Lord so let's do it flip side couple of Lord so let's do it flip side couple of the best practices if you're heading the best practices if you're heading the best practices if you're heading into the fall and you've LED local into the fall and you've LED local into the fall and you've LED local churches numerous times turnaround churches numerous times turnaround churches numerous times turnaround churches ET ET so you've been there what churches ET ET so you've been there what churches ET ET so you've been there what are some things that you would say this are some things that you would say this are some things that you would say this is 100% what I'm going to do don't know is 100% what I'm going to do don't know is 100% what I'm going to do don't know how it's going to land but I'm going to how it's going to land but I'm going to how it's going to land but I'm going to try it yeah so I was the interim try it yeah so I was the interim try it yeah so I was the interim teaching pastor at a church in Chicago teaching pastor at a church in Chicago teaching pastor at a church in Chicago from 2016 to 2020 and so uh and it's from 2016 to 2020 and so uh and it's from 2016 to 2020 and so uh and it's it's a really conservative church called it's a really conservative church called it's a really conservative church called The Moody Church there in Chicago and so The Moody Church there in Chicago and so The Moody Church there in Chicago and so I started before the 2016 election and I I started before the 2016 election and I I started before the 2016 election and I ended during covid they called somebody ended during covid they called somebody ended during covid they called somebody by a zoom for to be like they it was you by a zoom for to be like they it was you by a zoom for to be like they it was you know because it was during all that know because it was during all that know because it was during all that stuff um what I would say is is I'm not stuff um what I would say is is I'm not stuff um what I would say is is I'm not saying we did it perfectly but a couple saying we did it perfectly but a couple saying we did it perfectly but a couple of tricky things so I was a public of tricky things so I was a public of tricky things so I was a public commentator so and I was uh at in 2016 commentator so and I was uh at in 2016 commentator so and I was uh at in 2016 you know I interviewed uh Marco Rubio you know I interviewed uh Marco Rubio you know I interviewed uh Marco Rubio and Ben Carson like I was interviewing and Ben Carson like I was interviewing and Ben Carson like I was interviewing all the presidential candidates about all the presidential candidates about all the presidential candidates about their faith etc etc you know I was their faith etc etc you know I was their faith etc etc you know I was writing about these things pretty

writing about these things pretty writing about these things pretty regularly and I had to pretty regularly regularly and I had to pretty regularly regularly and I had to pretty regularly stand up at Moody Church and they're stand up at Moody Church and they're stand up at Moody Church and they're very gracious and say you know I'm very gracious and say you know I'm very gracious and say you know I'm teaching the Bible here I'm public teaching the Bible here I'm public teaching the Bible here I'm public commentator out there and I think people commentator out there and I think people commentator out there and I think people were able to sort of see the distinction were able to sort of see the distinction were able to sort of see the distinction between those two uh also it's a it was between those two uh also it's a it was between those two uh also it's a it was a urban church multi-ethnic church you a urban church multi-ethnic church you a urban church multi-ethnic church you know Wonderful at so many levels um I know Wonderful at so many levels um I know Wonderful at so many levels um I would say today it would probably be would say today it would probably be would say today it would probably be harder to do that so what I would say to harder to do that so what I would say to harder to do that so what I would say to you is that for most pastors and church you is that for most pastors and church you is that for most pastors and church leaders don't do what I do or have done leaders don't do what I do or have done leaders don't do what I do or have done do what I say because if you kind of I do what I say because if you kind of I do what I say because if you kind of I think in 2024 you probably have to make think in 2024 you probably have to make think in 2024 you probably have to make a choice if you're going to be unless a choice if you're going to be unless a choice if you're going to be unless you're like really partisan like if your you're like really partisan like if your you're like really partisan like if your church is really partisan you're really church is really partisan you're really church is really partisan you're really partisan you probably can't be a public partisan you probably can't be a public partisan you probably can't be a public commentator and so even for me like I I commentator and so even for me like I I commentator and so even for me like I I see my role having shifted in ways that see my role having shifted in ways that see my role having shifted in ways that I'm for for example one one thing is you I'm for for example one one thing is you I'm for for example one one thing is you know evangelicals didn't listen to me so know evangelicals didn't listen to me so know evangelicals didn't listen to me so I'm okay saying you know what I I I I'm okay saying you know what I I I I'm okay saying you know what I I I shared what I thought was my my shared what I thought was my my shared what I thought was my my conscience I I I'm I'm comfortable conscience I I I'm I'm comfortable conscience I I I'm I'm comfortable before the Lord what I shared but I also before the Lord what I shared but I also before the Lord what I shared but I also recognized that um you know that my I recognized that um you know that my I recognized that um you know that my I didn't persuade you know truckloads full didn't persuade you know truckloads full didn't persuade you know truckloads full of people and so you know for me right of people and so you know for me right of people and so you know for me right now more much more my focus is is I now more much more my focus is is I now more much more my focus is is I think think think longterm uh these extremes as you called longterm uh these extremes as you called longterm uh these extremes as you called earlier aren't going to last and I want earlier aren't going to last and I want earlier aren't going to last and I want to I'm working here to continue to grow to I'm working here to continue to grow to I'm working here to continue to grow an institution that's creating well an institution that's creating well an institution that's creating well spiritually formed leaders who can spiritually formed leaders who can spiritually formed leaders who can navigate the cultural moment because I

navigate the cultural moment because I navigate the cultural moment because I think healthy vibrant churches are think healthy vibrant churches are think healthy vibrant churches are long-term going to make a bigger impact long-term going to make a bigger impact long-term going to make a bigger impact than the current partisan enthusiasm than the current partisan enthusiasm than the current partisan enthusiasm that comes through and I think is that comes through and I think is that comes through and I think is probably going to Crest in 2024 I could probably going to Crest in 2024 I could probably going to Crest in 2024 I could be wrong I would love to know a little be wrong I would love to know a little be wrong I would love to know a little bit more about that you say on the one bit more about that you say on the one bit more about that you say on the one hand it's going to be worse on the other hand it's going to be worse on the other hand it's going to be worse on the other hand it's not going to last long I think hand it's not going to last long I think hand it's not going to last long I think it's gonna peek so I think it's gonna it's gonna peek so I think it's gonna it's gonna peek so I think it's gonna peek now of course a lot depends on who peek now of course a lot depends on who peek now of course a lot depends on who wins uh and I have my guesses but you wins uh and I have my guesses but you wins uh and I have my guesses but you know I I think the fools tell you their know I I think the fools tell you their know I I think the fools tell you their presidential guesses at this early um presidential guesses at this early um presidential guesses at this early um but I but I think ultimately we go but I but I think ultimately we go but I but I think ultimately we go through these waves America was was through these waves America was was through these waves America was was probably more divided in the 60s than it probably more divided in the 60s than it probably more divided in the 60s than it is now and eventually it people are like is now and eventually it people are like is now and eventually it people are like you know this these extremes lose you know this these extremes lose you know this these extremes lose elections and um I think if um I think elections and um I think if um I think elections and um I think if um I think if well give an example I think if some if well give an example I think if some if well give an example I think if some of the really extremes of the democratic of the really extremes of the democratic of the really extremes of the democratic party which I've mentioned earlier were party which I've mentioned earlier were party which I've mentioned earlier were not there they would have they would not there they would have they would not there they would have they would have a better chance at actually winning have a better chance at actually winning have a better chance at actually winning and I think if some of the and I think if some of the and I think if some of the extremes of uh the Republican Party were extremes of uh the Republican Party were extremes of uh the Republican Party were there um you know they'd have a better there um you know they'd have a better there um you know they'd have a better chance of winning I think what happens chance of winning I think what happens chance of winning I think what happens is the party that loses realizes it and is the party that loses realizes it and is the party that loses realizes it and says you know well we got to REM retool says you know well we got to REM retool says you know well we got to REM retool some of what we're thinking so but I some of what we're thinking so but I some of what we're thinking so but I don't know you know I don't know if don't know you know I don't know if don't know you know I don't know if that's going to happen but um but I that's going to happen but um but I that's going to happen but um but I think that eventually people we either think that eventually people we either think that eventually people we either going to pull apart as a country or going to pull apart as a country or going to pull apart as a country or we're gonna we're going to figure out we're gonna we're going to figure out we're gonna we're going to figure out another way to make this work and and uh another way to make this work and and uh another way to make this work and and uh you know a lot of people think that you know a lot of people think that you know a lot of people think that movie Civil War could be real life well movie Civil War could be real life well movie Civil War could be real life well I mean the fact that California and I mean the fact that California and I mean the fact that California and Texas are on the same side in that movie Texas are on the same side in that movie Texas are on the same side in that movie I can assure you is not real life I live I can assure you is not real life I live I can assure you is not real life I live in

in in California so so maybe some of us in California so so maybe some of us in California so so maybe some of us in California but not not California as a California but not not California as a California but not not California as a whole so so what I would say is I think whole so so what I would say is I think whole so so what I would say is I think just past Cycles show us that it Peaks just past Cycles show us that it Peaks just past Cycles show us that it Peaks and then it has to decline and people and then it has to decline and people and then it has to decline and people reengage themselves and so I don't I reengage themselves and so I don't I reengage themselves and so I don't I don't know what that means you know will don't know what that means you know will don't know what that means you know will that mean the Republican party will that mean the Republican party will that mean the Republican party will return more to the party of uh you know return more to the party of uh you know return more to the party of uh you know like a George W bush or uh a Jeb Bush I like a George W bush or uh a Jeb Bush I like a George W bush or uh a Jeb Bush I I don't know there's a lot of people who I don't know there's a lot of people who I don't know there's a lot of people who would say that would be the worst thing would say that would be the worst thing would say that would be the worst thing uh that would happen um but I you know I uh that would happen um but I you know I uh that would happen um but I you know I I don't know but my guess is just by I don't know but my guess is just by I don't know but my guess is just by past patterns not from the P current past patterns not from the P current past patterns not from the P current practices um you know by past patterns practices um you know by past patterns practices um you know by past patterns these things tend to wean these cultural these things tend to wean these cultural these things tend to wean these cultural convulsions I wrote about this in an convulsions I wrote about this in an convulsions I wrote about this in an article to and I I talked about how they article to and I I talked about how they article to and I I talked about how they last four to six years and I think we're last four to six years and I think we're last four to six years and I think we're getting near and it'll start to decline getting near and it'll start to decline getting near and it'll start to decline but I think this will be the worst of it but I think this will be the worst of it but I think this will be the worst of it I think 2024 will be worst of it but I think 2024 will be worst of it but I think 2024 will be worst of it but again maybe maybe who knows right you again maybe maybe who knows right you again maybe maybe who knows right you know no one had on their list um covid know no one had on their list um covid know no one had on their list um covid you know what they call Black Swan event you know what they call Black Swan event you know what they call Black Swan event as something you can't predict for the as something you can't predict for the as something you can't predict for the future uh and here we are I just came future uh and here we are I just came future uh and here we are I just came back from Ukraine so like there's a war back from Ukraine so like there's a war back from Ukraine so like there's a war in Europe there's a war in the Middle in Europe there's a war in the Middle in Europe there's a war in the Middle East and we're all just waiting on our East and we're all just waiting on our East and we're all just waiting on our watches for a war in Asia so like watches for a war in Asia so like watches for a war in Asia so like everything I you know it's it's not everything I you know it's it's not everything I you know it's it's not going well Carrie it's not going well going well Carrie it's not going well going well Carrie it's not going well going well at it's but I think the going well at it's but I think the going well at it's but I think the political division yeah well we probably political division yeah well we probably political division yeah well we probably will peek in 2024 but who knows I you will peek in 2024 but who knows I you will peek in 2024 but who knows I you know I sat recently In The Floor Of The know I sat recently In The Floor Of The know I sat recently In The Floor Of The House of the rep of Representatives I House of the rep of Representatives I House of the rep of Representatives I was there for a a briefing and for was there for a a briefing and for was there for a a briefing and for people who follow American News it was people who follow American News it was people who follow American News it was when it all sort of fell apart that day when it all sort of fell apart that day when it all sort of fell apart that day when people were yelling at each other

when people were yelling at each other when people were yelling at each other there was no speaker of the house there was no speaker of the house there was no speaker of the house everyone walked out stormed out and then everyone walked out stormed out and then everyone walked out stormed out and then we went into this meeting that I quite we went into this meeting that I quite we went into this meeting that I quite share the det it wasn't anything like share the det it wasn't anything like share the det it wasn't anything like super super secret but I'm not supposed super super secret but I'm not supposed super super secret but I'm not supposed to share the details of I'm just sitting to share the details of I'm just sitting to share the details of I'm just sitting I was sitting in the chair when you I was sitting in the chair when you I was sitting in the chair when you watch the uh State of the Union message watch the uh State of the Union message watch the uh State of the Union message it's where the joint The Joint Chiefs of it's where the joint The Joint Chiefs of it's where the joint The Joint Chiefs of Staff sit I was sitting right in that Staff sit I was sitting right in that Staff sit I was sitting right in that chair looking across the house of the chair looking across the house of the chair looking across the house of the representatives and I said to myself you representatives and I said to myself you representatives and I said to myself you know and I maybe maybe I me I said to know and I maybe maybe I me I said to know and I maybe maybe I me I said to myself it's the wrong term but I I just myself it's the wrong term but I I just myself it's the wrong term but I I just was praying the Lord hasn't promised was praying the Lord hasn't promised was praying the Lord hasn't promised that this will endure forever and you that this will endure forever and you that this will endure forever and you know the kingdom will endure forever know the kingdom will endure forever know the kingdom will endure forever ever God has chosen the church to make ever God has chosen the church to make ever God has chosen the church to make known his manifold wisdom in the world known his manifold wisdom in the world known his manifold wisdom in the world and that's probably a shift you know for and that's probably a shift you know for and that's probably a shift you know for I was trying to inform Christians in I was trying to inform Christians in I was trying to inform Christians in 2016 2020 was great to do that but I 2016 2020 was great to do that but I 2016 2020 was great to do that but I think ultimately as I'm getting a little think ultimately as I'm getting a little think ultimately as I'm getting a little older I I want to spend my time building older I I want to spend my time building older I I want to spend my time building up an institution that builds up the up an institution that builds up the up an institution that builds up the church like the tabas School of Theology church like the tabas School of Theology church like the tabas School of Theology and the churches that we're engaged with and the churches that we're engaged with and the churches that we're engaged with because I think ultimately if this spins because I think ultimately if this spins because I think ultimately if this spins more out of control which I think is a more out of control which I think is a more out of control which I think is a very real possibility globally with Wars very real possibility globally with Wars very real possibility globally with Wars and more I still think that God has and more I still think that God has and more I still think that God has chosen the church to make known as chosen the church to make known as chosen the church to make known as manful of wisdom Ephesians 3:10 I still manful of wisdom Ephesians 3:10 I still manful of wisdom Ephesians 3:10 I still think that that my ultimate Allegiance think that that my ultimate Allegiance think that that my ultimate Allegiance is there if sitting on the floor of that is there if sitting on the floor of that is there if sitting on the floor of that House of Representatives if this nation House of Representatives if this nation House of Representatives if this nation can eventually tears itself into pieces can eventually tears itself into pieces can eventually tears itself into pieces I'm GNA still show and share the love of I'm GNA still show and share the love of I'm GNA still show and share the love of Jesus I'm G to still put my faith energy Jesus I'm G to still put my faith energy Jesus I'm G to still put my faith energy and focus on what God is doing in the and focus on what God is doing in the and focus on what God is doing in the world and join Jesus on his mission so I world and join Jesus on his mission so I world and join Jesus on his mission so I guess for me and that would be my guess for me and that would be my guess for me and that would be my exhortation to pastors and church exhortation to pastors and church exhortation to pastors and church leaders that uh the temporal is

leaders that uh the temporal is leaders that uh the temporal is appealing but the eternal appealing but the eternal appealing but the eternal is far more valuable and choose your is far more valuable and choose your is far more valuable and choose your Steward your ministry in line with those Steward your ministry in line with those Steward your ministry in line with those truths and I think ultimately you'll truths and I think ultimately you'll truths and I think ultimately you'll make it through 2024 and into years make it through 2024 and into years make it through 2024 and into years Beyond focused on the good news of that Beyond focused on the good news of that Beyond focused on the good news of that gospel and the advance of his gospel and the advance of his gospel and the advance of his kingdom wow can you say that one more kingdom wow can you say that one more kingdom wow can you say that one more time I I said it at Spur the moment so I time I I said it at Spur the moment so I time I I said it at Spur the moment so I don't know that oh you did that was don't know that oh you did that was don't know that oh you did that was really good well we'll play back the really good well we'll play back the really good well we'll play back the tape and have a look at it that I think tape and have a look at it that I think tape and have a look at it that I think again it's it just has to do again it's it just has to do again it's it just has to do with you know you've got a C certain with you know you've got a C certain with you know you've got a C certain amount of time and a certain amount of amount of time and a certain amount of amount of time and a certain amount of energy totally a certain amount of focus energy totally a certain amount of focus energy totally a certain amount of focus and I can tell you that I definitely and I can tell you that I definitely and I can tell you that I definitely could feel the could feel the could feel the draw um and I would find that I would draw um and I would find that I would draw um and I would find that I would get asked to write things and invited to get asked to write things and invited to get asked to write things and invited to things and they would always they they things and they would always they they things and they would always they they they particularly when uh when they they they particularly when uh when they they they particularly when uh when they they agree with your critique oh come come agree with your critique oh come come agree with your critique oh come come here and talk to us and what I would say here and talk to us and what I would say here and talk to us and what I would say is I mean I could have spent my life and is I mean I could have spent my life and is I mean I could have spent my life and I've actually seen some peers who spent I've actually seen some peers who spent I've actually seen some peers who spent their life going down that lane and and their life going down that lane and and their life going down that lane and and I think regret it for me um you know I I I think regret it for me um you know I I I think regret it for me um you know I I guess I was at Wheaten college at the guess I was at Wheaten college at the guess I was at Wheaten college at the time the slogan for Wheaten College was time the slogan for Wheaten College was time the slogan for Wheaten College was for Christ and Kingdom and I I that that for Christ and Kingdom and I I that that for Christ and Kingdom and I I that that resonated with me and I want to spend my resonated with me and I want to spend my resonated with me and I want to spend my focus energy for Christan Kingdom focus energy for Christan Kingdom focus energy for Christan Kingdom recognizing that a lot of those things recognizing that a lot of those things recognizing that a lot of those things are countercultural even in our cultural are countercultural even in our cultural are countercultural even in our cultural moment and make people mad at you but moment and make people mad at you but moment and make people mad at you but you keep showing and sharing the love of you keep showing and sharing the love of you keep showing and sharing the love of Jesus I think it'll make a difference Jesus I think it'll make a difference Jesus I think it'll make a difference that is a really good place to wrap up that is a really good place to wrap up that is a really good place to wrap up and I think we have a similar heartbeat and I think we have a similar heartbeat and I think we have a similar heartbeat on that Ed we covered a lot thank you so

on that Ed we covered a lot thank you so on that Ed we covered a lot thank you so much is there a final word final thought much is there a final word final thought much is there a final word final thought yeah I I would say that I get that it's yeah I I would say that I get that it's yeah I I would say that I get that it's easy to be discouraged in these days we easy to be discouraged in these days we easy to be discouraged in these days we don't pick the days that we lead but we don't pick the days that we lead but we don't pick the days that we lead but we pick of whether or not we'll be faithful pick of whether or not we'll be faithful pick of whether or not we'll be faithful in the midst of those and and U you know in the midst of those and and U you know in the midst of those and and U you know there are Christian leaders from the 60s there are Christian leaders from the 60s there are Christian leaders from the 60s who stood up for the civil rights who stood up for the civil rights who stood up for the civil rights movement and it cost them a lot there movement and it cost them a lot there movement and it cost them a lot there are Christian leaders who worked against are Christian leaders who worked against are Christian leaders who worked against slavery and it it costs them a lot and slavery and it it costs them a lot and slavery and it it costs them a lot and there are Christian leaders who worked there are Christian leaders who worked there are Christian leaders who worked against poverty and costs them a lot and against poverty and costs them a lot and against poverty and costs them a lot and there are Christian leaders who spoke up there are Christian leaders who spoke up there are Christian leaders who spoke up about life and it's cost them a lot and about life and it's cost them a lot and about life and it's cost them a lot and what I would say is you want to First what I would say is you want to First what I would say is you want to First Steward the voice and the place that you Steward the voice and the place that you Steward the voice and the place that you have but I'm trying to live my life in have but I'm trying to live my life in have but I'm trying to live my life in Ministry now knowing that you know I'm Ministry now knowing that you know I'm Ministry now knowing that you know I'm 57 years old so you know 15 years from 57 years old so you know 15 years from 57 years old so you know 15 years from now I'll be finished and I want to look now I'll be finished and I want to look now I'll be finished and I want to look back and say I stewarded that that I had back and say I stewarded that that I had back and say I stewarded that that I had I was a a man of courage and a man of I was a a man of courage and a man of I was a a man of courage and a man of wise stewardship and that's my wise stewardship and that's my wise stewardship and that's my exhortation to people is that I want you exhortation to people is that I want you exhortation to people is that I want you to lead your people well it's harder and to lead your people well it's harder and to lead your people well it's harder and it's probably going to be the these last it's probably going to be the these last it's probably going to be the these last few years have been harder than any few years have been harder than any few years have been harder than any years I mean I I miss the days of the years I mean I I miss the days of the years I mean I I miss the days of the 90s when you know just a different it 90s when you know just a different it 90s when you know just a different it was so easy then this is hard this is was so easy then this is hard this is was so easy then this is hard this is complicated but this is not a surprise complicated but this is not a surprise complicated but this is not a surprise to the Lord Jesus and in 2,000 years of to the Lord Jesus and in 2,000 years of to the Lord Jesus and in 2,000 years of church history it's been complicated church history it's been complicated church history it's been complicated more than it's been simple so don't Pine more than it's been simple so don't Pine more than it's been simple so don't Pine away for the 90s but instead seek to be away for the 90s but instead seek to be away for the 90s but instead seek to be faithful and fruitful in the time and faithful and fruitful in the time and faithful and fruitful in the time and the season God has us I think if you the season God has us I think if you the season God has us I think if you Steward your voice well Steward your voice well Steward your voice well and if you rely on the scriptures and

and if you rely on the scriptures and and if you rely on the scriptures and teach and anchor yourself to the truths teach and anchor yourself to the truths teach and anchor yourself to the truths of the word of God you'll be able to of the word of God you'll be able to of the word of God you'll be able to navigate this political navigate this political navigate this political season it's a good word I've been season it's a good word I've been season it's a good word I've been thinking a lot about the next decade thinking a lot about the next decade thinking a lot about the next decade ahead too I got a couple years on you so ahead too I got a couple years on you so ahead too I got a couple years on you so thinking about the next decade and I'm thinking about the next decade and I'm thinking about the next decade and I'm in a similar tribe similar vein like how in a similar tribe similar vein like how in a similar tribe similar vein like how do I use this to have an impact that is do I use this to have an impact that is do I use this to have an impact that is healing for the church rather than just healing for the church rather than just healing for the church rather than just more Division and just more shrapnel more Division and just more shrapnel more Division and just more shrapnel flying in every direction I I love that flying in every direction I I love that flying in every direction I I love that that heart Ed going to have a lot to that heart Ed going to have a lot to that heart Ed going to have a lot to talk about next time you and I see each talk about next time you and I see each talk about next time you and I see each other and get together for breakfast or other and get together for breakfast or other and get together for breakfast or lunch or something like that but I want lunch or something like that but I want lunch or something like that but I want to thank you for sharing your heart with to thank you for sharing your heart with to thank you for sharing your heart with leaders today so you do have a book it's leaders today so you do have a book it's leaders today so you do have a book it's called Christians in the RA in the age called Christians in the RA in the age called Christians in the RA in the age of outrage fantastic resource uh well of outrage fantastic resource uh well of outrage fantastic resource uh well thought through still available I know thought through still available I know thought through still available I know it's like six years old but guess what it's like six years old but guess what it's like six years old but guess what the outrage hasn't gone away so uh a the outrage hasn't gone away so uh a the outrage hasn't gone away so uh a very relevant work anywhere else in very relevant work anywhere else in very relevant work anywhere else in particular you want to direct People to particular you want to direct People to particular you want to direct People to People go to Ed ster.com and of course People go to Ed ster.com and of course People go to Ed ster.com and of course outre magazine I serve as the editor and outre magazine I serve as the editor and outre magazine I serve as the editor and I'm finishing my new book in August on I'm finishing my new book in August on I'm finishing my new book in August on the future of evangelicalism which will the future of evangelicalism which will the future of evangelicalism which will address some of these issues as well address some of these issues as well address some of these issues as well cannot wait to read it Ed thank you so cannot wait to read it Ed thank you so cannot wait to read it Ed thank you so much