Signs Your Team Culture is Healthy or Toxic

they highly respected the character of they highly respected the character of their executive leaders they highly their executive leaders they highly their executive leaders they highly respected the character of their respected the character of their respected the character of their executive leaders they did not trust executive leaders they did not trust executive leaders they did not trust their decision-making they didn't trust their decision-making they didn't trust their decision-making they didn't trust their competency welcome to the K newoff their competency welcome to the K newoff their competency welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube hey I'm so leadership podcast on YouTube hey I'm so leadership podcast on YouTube hey I'm so glad you joined us today we're talking glad you joined us today we're talking glad you joined us today we're talking about culture is your culture healthy about culture is your culture healthy about culture is your culture healthy you know this is a big issue because you know this is a big issue because you know this is a big issue because people they quit not companies but they people they quit not companies but they people they quit not companies but they quit bosses but primarily they quit quit bosses but primarily they quit quit bosses but primarily they quit cultures and as a leader you set the cultures and as a leader you set the cultures and as a leader you set the culture if you want to attract gen Z culture if you want to attract gen Z culture if you want to attract gen Z Talent they have no interest in toxic Talent they have no interest in toxic Talent they have no interest in toxic culture so we talk about culture how to culture so we talk about culture how to culture so we talk about culture how to know whether the have any blind spots know whether the have any blind spots know whether the have any blind spots and all that I think you're going to and all that I think you're going to and all that I think you're going to really enjoy today's conversation hey if really enjoy today's conversation hey if really enjoy today's conversation hey if you're new here welcome make sure you you're new here welcome make sure you you're new here welcome make sure you subscribe you'll never miss an episode subscribe you'll never miss an episode subscribe you'll never miss an episode we bring you all kinds of fascinating we bring you all kinds of fascinating we bring you all kinds of fascinating leaders uh like this episode if you leaders uh like this episode if you leaders uh like this episode if you enjoyed it and jump into the comments enjoyed it and jump into the comments enjoyed it and jump into the comments and tell us what you learned now a word and tell us what you learned now a word and tell us what you learned now a word from today's sponsors and then we'll from today's sponsors and then we'll from today's sponsors and then we'll dive into the interview this episode is dive into the interview this episode is dive into the interview this episode is brought to you by my AV evangelism brought to you by my AV evangelism brought to you by my AV evangelism Kickstarter so if you've seen my church Kickstarter so if you've seen my church Kickstarter so if you've seen my church trends for 2025 there's a stat that trends for 2025 there's a stat that trends for 2025 there's a stat that might have jumped out at you exactly might have jumped out at you exactly might have jumped out at you exactly like it jumped out at me really grabbed like it jumped out at me really grabbed like it jumped out at me really grabbed my heart it's discouraging and it's this my heart it's discouraging and it's this my heart it's discouraging and it's this only 1% of pastors say their church is only 1% of pastors say their church is only 1% of pastors say their church is quote very effective at evangelism and quote very effective at evangelism and quote very effective at evangelism and that means that 99% of churches are that means that 99% of churches are that means that 99% of churches are struggling to reach people so let's face struggling to reach people so let's face struggling to reach people so let's face it evangelism might be on life support it evangelism might be on life support it evangelism might be on life support not just in the US church but perhaps at not just in the US church but perhaps at not just in the US church but perhaps at your church as well and if that's the your church as well and if that's the your church as well and if that's the case I am hosting a free webinar on

case I am hosting a free webinar on case I am hosting a free webinar on February 24th in my evangelism February 24th in my evangelism February 24th in my evangelism Kickstarter you'll get fresh strategies Kickstarter you'll get fresh strategies Kickstarter you'll get fresh strategies to reach new people in 2025 in just a to reach new people in 2025 in just a to reach new people in 2025 in just a single hour you're going to learn why single hour you're going to learn why single hour you're going to learn why evangelism has stalled and more evangelism has stalled and more evangelism has stalled and more importantly five practical strategies to importantly five practical strategies to importantly five practical strategies to reignite it in your church so imagine reignite it in your church so imagine reignite it in your church so imagine your church being a place where your church being a place where your church being a place where unchurched people actually feel welcome unchurched people actually feel welcome unchurched people actually feel welcome where they feel loved where they get where they feel loved where they get where they feel loved where they get transformed by the gospel it is possible transformed by the gospel it is possible transformed by the gospel it is possible and in the evangelism Kickstarter I'll and in the evangelism Kickstarter I'll and in the evangelism Kickstarter I'll show you how it's all happening February show you how it's all happening February show you how it's all happening February 24th so don't wait registration is 24th so don't wait registration is 24th so don't wait registration is absolutely free you can bring your absolutely free you can bring your absolutely free you can bring your entire team go to evangelism entire team go to evangelism entire team go to evangelism kickstarter.com or click the link in the kickstarter.com or click the link in the kickstarter.com or click the link in the description of this episode again that's description of this episode again that's description of this episode again that's evangelism kickstarter.com let's make evangelism kickstarter.com let's make evangelism kickstarter.com let's make evangelism the heartbeat of your church evangelism the heartbeat of your church evangelism the heartbeat of your church again this episode is brought to you by again this episode is brought to you by again this episode is brought to you by Glue plus are you ready to kick off 2025 Glue plus are you ready to kick off 2025 Glue plus are you ready to kick off 2025 with the tools to lead your people with with the tools to lead your people with with the tools to lead your people with greater impact I'd love to tell you greater impact I'd love to tell you greater impact I'd love to tell you about glue plus your go-to resource for about glue plus your go-to resource for about glue plus your go-to resource for making this the best year yet with glue making this the best year yet with glue making this the best year yet with glue plus you can get a texting platform that plus you can get a texting platform that plus you can get a texting platform that gives you unlimited groups and workflows gives you unlimited groups and workflows gives you unlimited groups and workflows to deepen Church engagement you can to deepen Church engagement you can to deepen Church engagement you can discover discounted content designed to discover discounted content designed to discover discounted content designed to grow your people and help you lead with grow your people and help you lead with grow your people and help you lead with purpose you can get to mail 50 free purpose you can get to mail 50 free purpose you can get to mail 50 free personalized postcards to new movers in personalized postcards to new movers in personalized postcards to new movers in your area every single month so start your area every single month so start your area every single month so start strong in 2025 by having the right strong in 2025 by having the right strong in 2025 by having the right resources at your fingertips and glue resources at your fingertips and glue resources at your fingertips and glue plus makes it easier than ever to find

plus makes it easier than ever to find plus makes it easier than ever to find and use what you need so the question is and use what you need so the question is and use what you need so the question is why are you waiting join the fastest why are you waiting join the fastest why are you waiting join the fastest growing Church platform head to glue. growing Church platform head to glue. growing Church platform head to glue. us/ plusus that's us/ plusus that's us/ plusus that's g. g. g. usplus today and get ready to make 2025 usplus today and get ready to make 2025 usplus today and get ready to make 2025 a year to remember Jenny it's good to a year to remember Jenny it's good to a year to remember Jenny it's good to have you back welcome Carrie I am always have you back welcome Carrie I am always have you back welcome Carrie I am always so grateful for time with you and when so grateful for time with you and when so grateful for time with you and when we get to do be on the podcast it's we get to do be on the podcast it's we get to do be on the podcast it's always it's just always a pleasure and a always it's just always a pleasure and a always it's just always a pleasure and a great conversation so thanks for having great conversation so thanks for having great conversation so thanks for having me so I want to go back to a me so I want to go back to a me so I want to go back to a conversation you and I had just in some conversation you and I had just in some conversation you and I had just in some of our off-mic interactions a couple of our off-mic interactions a couple of our off-mic interactions a couple years ago I forget exactly the timeline years ago I forget exactly the timeline years ago I forget exactly the timeline could have been five years ago could could have been five years ago could could have been five years ago could have been two years ago where you said I have been two years ago where you said I have been two years ago where you said I think I really need to Niche down on think I really need to Niche down on think I really need to Niche down on something and focus my company on something and focus my company on something and focus my company on something you pick culture why did you something you pick culture why did you something you pick culture why did you pick culture yeah that's that's a great pick culture yeah that's that's a great pick culture yeah that's that's a great question and kind of to your point question and kind of to your point question and kind of to your point because I sat in an executive Pastor because I sat in an executive Pastor because I sat in an executive Pastor seat for so many years I could kind of seat for so many years I could kind of seat for so many years I could kind of do a lot of things particularly on the do a lot of things particularly on the do a lot of things particularly on the ministry side yeah but I began to just ministry side yeah but I began to just ministry side yeah but I began to just dig a Little Deeper leadership has dig a Little Deeper leadership has dig a Little Deeper leadership has always been a passion of mine you know always been a passion of mine you know always been a passion of mine you know that but I was reflecting on some of the that but I was reflecting on some of the that but I was reflecting on some of the different experiences of my journey and different experiences of my journey and different experiences of my journey and Carrie I don't know if I've told you Carrie I don't know if I've told you Carrie I don't know if I've told you this story but back when I worked in the this story but back when I worked in the this story but back when I worked in the music business I uh that was my first music business I uh that was my first music business I uh that was my first job out of college and it was a job out of college and it was a job out of college and it was a fantastic experience like great great fantastic experience like great great fantastic experience like great great environment great culture great leaders environment great culture great leaders environment great culture great leaders great team we were achieving huge goals

great team we were achieving huge goals great team we were achieving huge goals we were you know aligned effective like we were you know aligned effective like we were you know aligned effective like working hard like just a phenomenal working hard like just a phenomenal working hard like just a phenomenal experience and then a handful of years experience and then a handful of years experience and then a handful of years in they merged us with another division in they merged us with another division in they merged us with another division of the company and overnight my of the company and overnight my of the company and overnight my experience went from absolutely amazing experience went from absolutely amazing experience went from absolutely amazing to horrific just to Awful wow and I to horrific just to Awful wow and I to horrific just to Awful wow and I remember just kind of I was in my late remember just kind of I was in my late remember just kind of I was in my late 20s at that point and it I was just 20s at that point and it I was just 20s at that point and it I was just swirling like I was just like how is it swirling like I was just like how is it swirling like I was just like how is it that I have the same job the same job that I have the same job the same job that I have the same job the same job title and I am having a completely title and I am having a completely title and I am having a completely different experience at work and so I different experience at work and so I different experience at work and so I stayed for about a year just because one stayed for about a year just because one stayed for about a year just because one of my leaders begged me to try um you of my leaders begged me to try um you of my leaders begged me to try um you know to try to merge with the merger know to try to merge with the merger know to try to merge with the merger yeah and I just couldn't do it Carrie yeah and I just couldn't do it Carrie yeah and I just couldn't do it Carrie like I just was like my heart is not in like I just was like my heart is not in like I just was like my heart is not in this I am not I am not thriving I'm not this I am not I am not thriving I'm not this I am not I am not thriving I'm not enjoying my work and at that time enjoying my work and at that time enjoying my work and at that time simultaneous to that was me being simultaneous to that was me being simultaneous to that was me being invited to go on staff at Cross Point invited to go on staff at Cross Point invited to go on staff at Cross Point Church in Nashville and so I'm kind of Church in Nashville and so I'm kind of Church in Nashville and so I'm kind of going through this whole you know going through this whole you know going through this whole you know process of praying through this you know process of praying through this you know process of praying through this you know move from the corporate world to move from the corporate world to move from the corporate world to Ministry world and navigating all of Ministry world and navigating all of Ministry world and navigating all of that and when I decided to take the job that and when I decided to take the job that and when I decided to take the job at Cross Point I at Cross Point I at Cross Point I thought I am now in a seat where I have thought I am now in a seat where I have thought I am now in a seat where I have influence over the experience this team influence over the experience this team influence over the experience this team is going to have so I was employee is going to have so I was employee is going to have so I was employee number five we were growing rapidly I number five we were growing rapidly I number five we were growing rapidly I knew it was going to be a growing team knew it was going to be a growing team knew it was going to be a growing team it was a growing church and I thought I it was a growing church and I thought I it was a growing church and I thought I am now in the seat where the experience am now in the seat where the experience am now in the seat where the experience and the environment that employees have and the environment that employees have and the environment that employees have volunteers have our congregants have are volunteers have our congregants have are volunteers have our congregants have are going to be influenced by what I do as a

going to be influenced by what I do as a going to be influenced by what I do as a leader ah and that was probably my first leader ah and that was probably my first leader ah and that was probably my first realization of the fact that culture realization of the fact that culture realization of the fact that culture matters that the experience we create As matters that the experience we create As matters that the experience we create As Leaders really matters and so I would Leaders really matters and so I would Leaders really matters and so I would say that's where the seed was planted so say that's where the seed was planted so say that's where the seed was planted so back to our conversation when you asked back to our conversation when you asked back to our conversation when you asked me that where we talked about that a me that where we talked about that a me that where we talked about that a couple years ago I think that I began to couple years ago I think that I began to couple years ago I think that I began to reflect on some of those moments in my reflect on some of those moments in my reflect on some of those moments in my leadership journey and I realized that leadership journey and I realized that leadership journey and I realized that the places where I came most alive was the places where I came most alive was the places where I came most alive was when I was working with a team that was when I was working with a team that was when I was working with a team that was just just a phenomenal team where you just just a phenomenal team where you just just a phenomenal team where you were energized you were engaged you were were energized you were engaged you were were energized you were engaged you were committed you knew the mission you were committed you knew the mission you were committed you knew the mission you were you were just 100% in and those were the you were just 100% in and those were the you were just 100% in and those were the teams I wanted to be a part of and teams I wanted to be a part of and teams I wanted to be a part of and that's what I wanted to help create so that's what I wanted to help create so that's what I wanted to help create so when you look back at the merger when when you look back at the merger when when you look back at the merger when you were in your 20s in the music you were in your 20s in the music you were in your 20s in the music industry what was that the culture was industry what was that the culture was industry what was that the culture was it a bad boss all of the above some of it a bad boss all of the above some of it a bad boss all of the above some of the above like what happened to shift the above like what happened to shift the above like what happened to shift your experience so radically it was I I your experience so radically it was I I your experience so radically it was I I would say it's it's the culture but would say it's it's the culture but would say it's it's the culture but culture is led by leaders so even the culture is led by leaders so even the culture is led by leaders so even the framework that I've designed is called framework that I've designed is called framework that I've designed is called lead culture because it it is dependent lead culture because it it is dependent lead culture because it it is dependent on leaders John Maxwell says everything on leaders John Maxwell says everything on leaders John Maxwell says everything Rises and falls on leaders and Rises and falls on leaders and Rises and falls on leaders and Leadership and so it is the culture is Leadership and so it is the culture is Leadership and so it is the culture is only as strong as the leader who's only as strong as the leader who's only as strong as the leader who's leading it and again everybody's leading it and again everybody's leading it and again everybody's influencing culture but your leaders influencing culture but your leaders influencing culture but your leaders have disproportionate influence so when have disproportionate influence so when have disproportionate influence so when I think about that we did have a major I think about that we did have a major I think about that we did have a major shift in some of the my I would say my shift in some of the my I would say my shift in some of the my I would say my department leaders um and they had a

department leaders um and they had a department leaders um and they had a very different set of values what was very different set of values what was very different set of values what was important to them and what was important to them and what was important to them and what was distinctly different is that the the distinctly different is that the the distinctly different is that the the team that I had been a part of team that I had been a part of team that I had been a part of originally again High commitment strong originally again High commitment strong originally again High commitment strong Unity Clarity of you know vision and Unity Clarity of you know vision and Unity Clarity of you know vision and goals and the new team uh was much more goals and the new team uh was much more goals and the new team uh was much more territorial there was a competitive territorial there was a competitive territorial there was a competitive Spirit between everybody there was just Spirit between everybody there was just Spirit between everybody there was just this kind of animosity and just lack of this kind of animosity and just lack of this kind of animosity and just lack of respect for your co-workers just respect for your co-workers just respect for your co-workers just completely different I mean again we completely different I mean again we completely different I mean again we were owned by the same parent company were owned by the same parent company were owned by the same parent company but we had two different divisions but we had two different divisions but we had two different divisions ultimately led by different leaders and ultimately led by different leaders and ultimately led by different leaders and a set of we had we had the same a set of we had we had the same a set of we had we had the same corporate values but the values that corporate values but the values that corporate values but the values that were guiding the day-to-day Behavior were guiding the day-to-day Behavior were guiding the day-to-day Behavior were different so on paper it was the were different so on paper it was the were different so on paper it was the same yeah um can you can you get a same yeah um can you can you get a same yeah um can you can you get a little more practical and if you need to little more practical and if you need to little more practical and if you need to switch examples go ahead but I think a switch examples go ahead but I think a switch examples go ahead but I think a lot of the time leaders and you have lot of the time leaders and you have lot of the time leaders and you have mostly leaders listening to this mostly leaders listening to this mostly leaders listening to this conversation watching this conversation conversation watching this conversation conversation watching this conversation we're blind to the culture we create we we're blind to the culture we create we we're blind to the culture we create we just assume it's either written down or just assume it's either written down or just assume it's either written down or it's not written down but everything's it's not written down but everything's it's not written down but everything's cool man everything's awesome I'm cool man everything's awesome I'm cool man everything's awesome I'm awesome everybody's happy to work here awesome everybody's happy to work here awesome everybody's happy to work here that's not true so in your 20s what what that's not true so in your 20s what what that's not true so in your 20s what what was demotivating to you sure sure I was demotivating to you sure sure I was demotivating to you sure sure I think what was think what was think what was demotivating uh particularly in that demotivating uh particularly in that demotivating uh particularly in that example was a leader who was kind of dis example was a leader who was kind of dis example was a leader who was kind of dis connected so when we did that you know connected so when we did that you know connected so when we did that you know that my first example the leader of that that my first example the leader of that that my first example the leader of that division is still a friend to this day

division is still a friend to this day division is still a friend to this day like I mean still somebody that I talk like I mean still somebody that I talk like I mean still somebody that I talk to with regularity and we so Prem merger to with regularity and we so Prem merger to with regularity and we so Prem merger your boss from years ago is still a your boss from years ago is still a your boss from years ago is still a friend today yeah my the the boss who friend today yeah my the the boss who friend today yeah my the the boss who hired me at 21 years old and high belief hired me at 21 years old and high belief hired me at 21 years old and high belief High commitment threw me in the deep end High commitment threw me in the deep end High commitment threw me in the deep end you know um is still a friend to this you know um is still a friend to this you know um is still a friend to this day wow and I mean that just speaks day wow and I mean that just speaks day wow and I mean that just speaks volumes cuz I haven't worked in that volumes cuz I haven't worked in that volumes cuz I haven't worked in that industry for a few years let's say 25 industry for a few years let's say 25 industry for a few years let's say 25 maybe um maybe not quite 25 but at least maybe um maybe not quite 25 but at least maybe um maybe not quite 25 but at least 20 years it's been 20 years since then 20 years it's been 20 years since then 20 years it's been 20 years since then and um and then the division that we and um and then the division that we and um and then the division that we merged with uh I couldn't tell you those merged with uh I couldn't tell you those merged with uh I couldn't tell you those leaders leaders leaders names like I mean I would have to names like I mean I would have to names like I mean I would have to actually really go back and I stayed a actually really go back and I stayed a actually really go back and I stayed a year Carrie so like but like I mean year Carrie so like but like I mean year Carrie so like but like I mean first recall I can't tell you the name first recall I can't tell you the name first recall I can't tell you the name of who led my department in that era I'm of who led my department in that era I'm of who led my department in that era I'm sure I I think for a minute it'll come sure I I think for a minute it'll come sure I I think for a minute it'll come back to me but I think of they I think back to me but I think of they I think back to me but I think of they I think what was discouraging is they they what was discouraging is they they what was discouraging is they they didn't and again this was a merger so didn't and again this was a merger so didn't and again this was a merger so mergers have uniquenesses to them so mergers have uniquenesses to them so mergers have uniquenesses to them so they in they inherited a team that they they in they inherited a team that they they in they inherited a team that they didn't hire so in their defense the didn't hire so in their defense the didn't hire so in their defense the leaders of that division were handed a leaders of that division were handed a leaders of that division were handed a team including myself that you know they team including myself that you know they team including myself that you know they didn't pick they were kind of handed to didn't pick they were kind of handed to didn't pick they were kind of handed to them but as the employee coming into them but as the employee coming into them but as the employee coming into that team I didn't I felt kind of that team I didn't I felt kind of that team I didn't I felt kind of dismissed I didn't feel valued I felt dismissed I didn't feel valued I felt dismissed I didn't feel valued I felt second rate to the rest of the team second rate to the rest of the team second rate to the rest of the team right so there's some Nuance there right so there's some Nuance there right so there's some Nuance there because of the the merger dynamics that

because of the the merger dynamics that because of the the merger dynamics that probably made that particularly probably made that particularly probably made that particularly complicated however I will say that complicated however I will say that complicated however I will say that there are so many organizations where we there are so many organizations where we there are so many organizations where we do some kind of merger if it's a um you do some kind of merger if it's a um you do some kind of merger if it's a um you know a church that's multi-site and know a church that's multi-site and know a church that's multi-site and there's a a church across town that's there's a a church across town that's there's a a church across town that's merging with your church that's a merging with your church that's a merging with your church that's a massive culture shift right that's a massive culture shift right that's a massive culture shift right that's a culture inflection point and as Leaders culture inflection point and as Leaders culture inflection point and as Leaders we have to be conscious of what is the we have to be conscious of what is the we have to be conscious of what is the experience we're creating for those experience we're creating for those experience we're creating for those teams both the existing team the team teams both the existing team the team teams both the existing team the team that's merging in the congregations on that's merging in the congregations on that's merging in the congregations on both sides so there's a Nuance even to both sides so there's a Nuance even to both sides so there's a Nuance even to mergers that you know that again is a is mergers that you know that again is a is mergers that you know that again is a is a culture inflection point so how do you a culture inflection point so how do you a culture inflection point so how do you define culture Seth Goden says culture define culture Seth Goden says culture define culture Seth Goden says culture is People Like Us do things like this is People Like Us do things like this is People Like Us do things like this right which is which is like a an right which is which is like a an right which is which is like a an interesting way to look at it what is interesting way to look at it what is interesting way to look at it what is your take when you talk about lead your take when you talk about lead your take when you talk about lead culture what culture what culture what yeah yeah I I love Seth's that Seth's yeah yeah I I love Seth's that Seth's yeah yeah I I love Seth's that Seth's definition is a great one from a just definition is a great one from a just definition is a great one from a just yeah that people like us do things like yeah that people like us do things like yeah that people like us do things like this and you quickly know okay what does this and you quickly know okay what does this and you quickly know okay what does that look like you know it's it's a that look like you know it's it's a that look like you know it's it's a quick litmus test the definition of quick litmus test the definition of quick litmus test the definition of culture that I work with is uh Clarity culture that I work with is uh Clarity culture that I work with is uh Clarity of who we are and how we work together of who we are and how we work together of who we are and how we work together to achieve our mission so there's three to achieve our mission so there's three to achieve our mission so there's three really key statements there that if you really key statements there that if you really key statements there that if you don't mind I'll just break down really don't mind I'll just break down really don't mind I'll just break down really quickly Clarity of who we are is that quickly Clarity of who we are is that quickly Clarity of who we are is that sense of do we know our mission our sense of do we know our mission our sense of do we know our mission our vision our purpose as an organization vision our purpose as an organization vision our purpose as an organization most of us are pretty locked in on that most of us are pretty locked in on that most of us are pretty locked in on that but then the how we work together is how but then the how we work together is how but then the how we work together is how the beliefs the behaviors um the stories

the beliefs the behaviors um the stories the beliefs the behaviors um the stories the things that shape how the team the things that shape how the team the things that shape how the team interacts whether that's staff team interacts whether that's staff team interacts whether that's staff team volunteer team but the people carrying volunteer team but the people carrying volunteer team but the people carrying out the work the how we work together is out the work the how we work together is out the work the how we work together is do we have an agreed upon set of values do we have an agreed upon set of values do we have an agreed upon set of values beliefs and behaviors that Define how we beliefs and behaviors that Define how we beliefs and behaviors that Define how we work together and the third pie piece is work together and the third pie piece is work together and the third pie piece is important because it's um to achieve the important because it's um to achieve the important because it's um to achieve the mission because we're not just a social mission because we're not just a social mission because we're not just a social club you know I think sometimes that's club you know I think sometimes that's club you know I think sometimes that's where we get stuck on culture because we where we get stuck on culture because we where we get stuck on culture because we think culture is just the perks and the think culture is just the perks and the think culture is just the perks and the fun stuff and you know but it's actually fun stuff and you know but it's actually fun stuff and you know but it's actually that Clarity of clarity of who we are that Clarity of clarity of who we are that Clarity of clarity of who we are how we work together ultimately to how we work together ultimately to how we work together ultimately to achieve a mission because we have achieve a mission because we have achieve a mission because we have there's a goal that we're rallying there's a goal that we're rallying there's a goal that we're rallying around there's a mission that we're around there's a mission that we're around there's a mission that we're trying to accomplish together and so trying to accomplish together and so trying to accomplish together and so that's my my definition of culture so that's my my definition of culture so that's my my definition of culture so talk to the leader who says hey we got a talk to the leader who says hey we got a talk to the leader who says hey we got a mission statement I don't have any mission statement I don't have any mission statement I don't have any prescrib defined cultural values like prescrib defined cultural values like prescrib defined cultural values like you hear about and all these leadership you hear about and all these leadership you hear about and all these leadership things so how do I know what my culture things so how do I know what my culture things so how do I know what my culture is how how can because I think culture is how how can because I think culture is how how can because I think culture is often a blind spot there's what we is often a blind spot there's what we is often a blind spot there's what we think I'm sure those those first bosses think I'm sure those those first bosses think I'm sure those those first bosses of yours thought they were awesome of of yours thought they were awesome of of yours thought they were awesome of course and they were probably wonderful course and they were probably wonderful course and they were probably wonderful people they just were not aware of the people they just were not aware of the people they just were not aware of the experience they were creating I worked experience they were creating I worked experience they were creating I worked in a terrible culture when I was 23 I in a terrible culture when I was 23 I in a terrible culture when I was 23 I worked for a government agency and every worked for a government agency and every worked for a government agency and every single stereotype about government you single stereotype about government you single stereotype about government you you can imagine was true on steroids I you can imagine was true on steroids I you can imagine was true on steroids I mean it was so demotivating I got mean it was so demotivating I got mean it was so demotivating I got reprimanded and the reason I got reprimanded and the reason I got reprimanded and the reason I got reprimanded is they pulled me aside and

reprimanded is they pulled me aside and reprimanded is they pulled me aside and he said look you've been here for a he said look you've been here for a he said look you've been here for a month he says you need to slow down he month he says you need to slow down he month he says you need to slow down he says first of all you're going to be out says first of all you're going to be out says first of all you're going to be out of a job a summer job you'll be out of a of a job a summer job you'll be out of a of a job a summer job you'll be out of a job by the 4th of July secondly you're job by the 4th of July secondly you're job by the 4th of July secondly you're making us all look bad cuz we don't do making us all look bad cuz we don't do making us all look bad cuz we don't do much around here and you're hustling and much around here and you're hustling and much around here and you're hustling and literally that was what my boss that's literally that was what my boss that's literally that was what my boss that's what I got in trouble for that's amazing what I got in trouble for that's amazing what I got in trouble for that's amazing oh I got so telling though so oh I got so telling though so oh I got so telling though so demotivated it was it was you know I was demotivated it was it was you know I was demotivated it was it was you know I was 23 and of course I'm I'm just like well 23 and of course I'm I'm just like well 23 and of course I'm I'm just like well what am I supposed to do it just killed what am I supposed to do it just killed what am I supposed to do it just killed me and yeah uh but that was a culture me and yeah uh but that was a culture me and yeah uh but that was a culture that was a culture and it was caught not that was a culture and it was caught not that was a culture and it was caught not taught the sad part of that is it it taught the sad part of that is it it taught the sad part of that is it it easily will frame your view of work easily will frame your view of work easily will frame your view of work right like you know my first you know 8 right like you know my first you know 8 right like you know my first you know 8 years in the music business was with years in the music business was with years in the music business was with that division of the company that was that division of the company that was that division of the company that was absolutely amazing and I thought you absolutely amazing and I thought you absolutely amazing and I thought you know when we went through the merger and know when we went through the merger and know when we went through the merger and I'm like oh my gosh what has happened I'm like oh my gosh what has happened I'm like oh my gosh what has happened because those first years shaped my because those first years shaped my because those first years shaped my belief about what teams should feel like belief about what teams should feel like belief about what teams should feel like and so I was totally spoiled like and so I was totally spoiled like and so I was totally spoiled like totally spoiled but if you like if that totally spoiled but if you like if that totally spoiled but if you like if that was like one of your first work was like one of your first work was like one of your first work experiences and you're like okay experiences and you're like okay experiences and you're like okay so we don't do anything that's that's so we don't do anything that's that's so we don't do anything that's that's how you succeed like that I mean what an how you succeed like that I mean what an how you succeed like that I mean what an experience experience experience like well yeah and you know there was no like well yeah and you know there was no like well yeah and you know there was no cultural values other than I'm sure now cultural values other than I'm sure now cultural values other than I'm sure now they have them but you know but but the they have them but you know but but the they have them but you know but but the defacto culture was we're lazy nobody defacto culture was we're lazy nobody defacto culture was we're lazy nobody works hard don't make anybody look bad

works hard don't make anybody look bad works hard don't make anybody look bad don't try and that's the opposite of don't try and that's the opposite of don't try and that's the opposite of what I am I'm like i' I'd rather i' what I am I'm like i' I'd rather i' what I am I'm like i' I'd rather i' rather die than than work in a place rather die than than work in a place rather die than than work in a place like that place like that so you know to like that place like that so you know to like that place like that so you know to the leader who is saying I don't have the leader who is saying I don't have the leader who is saying I don't have any cultural values defined how can they any cultural values defined how can they any cultural values defined how can they tell what their culture is what is a tell what their culture is what is a tell what their culture is what is a litmus test yeah that's so good and you litmus test yeah that's so good and you litmus test yeah that's so good and you know like like you mentioned we have a know like like you mentioned we have a know like like you mentioned we have a culture whether we acknowledge it or not culture whether we acknowledge it or not culture whether we acknowledge it or not it's there there's an experience that it's there there's an experience that it's there there's an experience that that your team is having to your point that your team is having to your point that your team is having to your point um it's not as good as we think it is as um it's not as good as we think it is as um it's not as good as we think it is as the leader like that's just the painful the leader like that's just the painful the leader like that's just the painful truth that we have to like acknowledge truth that we have to like acknowledge truth that we have to like acknowledge is that the experience we're having is is that the experience we're having is is that the experience we're having is typically not the same experience the typically not the same experience the typically not the same experience the rest of the team are having because we rest of the team are having because we rest of the team are having because we have more influence and agency over over have more influence and agency over over have more influence and agency over over our experience and so you know again if our experience and so you know again if our experience and so you know again if you're in senior leadership or you're you're in senior leadership or you're you're in senior leadership or you're leading up a department or a team so leading up a department or a team so leading up a department or a team so first of all it's that starting point of first of all it's that starting point of first of all it's that starting point of just that awareness and acknowledgement just that awareness and acknowledgement just that awareness and acknowledgement that gosh I it might feel great to me that gosh I it might feel great to me that gosh I it might feel great to me but I can't be guaranteed this is the but I can't be guaranteed this is the but I can't be guaranteed this is the experience for everybody else so experience for everybody else so experience for everybody else so starting with that starting with just a starting with that starting with just a starting with that starting with just a little bit of humility there to go I little bit of humility there to go I little bit of humility there to go I just I need to be curious enough about just I need to be curious enough about just I need to be curious enough about the experience of my team and here's the experience of my team and here's the experience of my team and here's what I here I'll pause on this for a what I here I'll pause on this for a what I here I'll pause on this for a half second Carrie half second Carrie half second Carrie I deeply believe every leader especially I deeply believe every leader especially I deeply believe every leader especially we talked to a lot of ministry leaders we talked to a lot of ministry leaders we talked to a lot of ministry leaders through your podcast like we care about through your podcast like we care about through your podcast like we care about people right like I mean that's the people right like I mean that's the people right like I mean that's the heart of culture is people are the point heart of culture is people are the point heart of culture is people are the point that's at the end of the day that's that

that's at the end of the day that's that that's at the end of the day that's that is the conviction for me is that people is the conviction for me is that people is the conviction for me is that people are the point that culture another way are the point that culture another way are the point that culture another way to say culture is it's stewardship of to say culture is it's stewardship of to say culture is it's stewardship of people in pursuit of the mission right people in pursuit of the mission right people in pursuit of the mission right like we're entrusted with this team of like we're entrusted with this team of like we're entrusted with this team of people that are assembled with us to people that are assembled with us to people that are assembled with us to achieve this mission right now yeah and achieve this mission right now yeah and achieve this mission right now yeah and so our heart as leaders and you and I've so our heart as leaders and you and I've so our heart as leaders and you and I've talked about this before but I deeply talked about this before but I deeply talked about this before but I deeply believe that leadership is sacred work believe that leadership is sacred work believe that leadership is sacred work that we're changing and affecting the that we're changing and affecting the that we're changing and affecting the lives of the people that are part of our lives of the people that are part of our lives of the people that are part of our team day in and day out I know you do team day in and day out I know you do team day in and day out I know you do this with your team because I've had the this with your team because I've had the this with your team because I've had the chance to spend time with your team and chance to spend time with your team and chance to spend time with your team and I mean you deeply love your team and I mean you deeply love your team and I mean you deeply love your team and want the best for them and you expect a want the best for them and you expect a want the best for them and you expect a lot of out of them too like your teams lot of out of them too like your teams lot of out of them too like your teams are hardworking make it happen get it are hardworking make it happen get it are hardworking make it happen get it done team they hustle they Hustle but done team they hustle they Hustle but done team they hustle they Hustle but they know that you want their best so they know that you want their best so they know that you want their best so I'm going to assume every leader I'm going to assume every leader I'm going to assume every leader listening is is thinking that way like listening is is thinking that way like listening is is thinking that way like they they care they love their team they they they care they love their team they they they care they love their team they want their team to be thriving and uh so want their team to be thriving and uh so want their team to be thriving and uh so I think it has to start with a I think it has to start with a I think it has to start with a acknowledgement and humility of gosh as acknowledgement and humility of gosh as acknowledgement and humility of gosh as much as that is my much as that is my much as that is my heart is that their experience right heart is that their experience right heart is that their experience right it's just that willingness so how do I it's just that willingness so how do I it's just that willingness so how do I tell like because we have defined tell like because we have defined tell like because we have defined cultural values I think we're doing a cultural values I think we're doing a cultural values I think we're doing a great job I go through it with them we great job I go through it with them we great job I go through it with them we just did a team Retreat I'm like which just did a team Retreat I'm like which just did a team Retreat I'm like which of our values are really speaking to you of our values are really speaking to you of our values are really speaking to you what are we living out what are we not what are we living out what are we not what are we living out what are we not living out but how do I know yeah what living out but how do I know yeah what living out but how do I know yeah what the real state of the nation is yeah so the real state of the nation is yeah so the real state of the nation is yeah so first of all anywhere where you can first of all anywhere where you can first of all anywhere where you can create mechanisms for feedback on the create mechanisms for feedback on the create mechanisms for feedback on the employee experience is important so I'm

employee experience is important so I'm employee experience is important so I'm an advocate of I love annual surveys an advocate of I love annual surveys an advocate of I love annual surveys just to hear how are you doing what's just to hear how are you doing what's just to hear how are you doing what's working what's not working and there's working what's not working and there's working what's not working and there's Myriad of ways to facilitate that but Myriad of ways to facilitate that but Myriad of ways to facilitate that but don't do it when it feels broken do it don't do it when it feels broken do it don't do it when it feels broken do it as a rhythm of organizational life as a rhythm of organizational life as a rhythm of organizational life you're just saying I annually by anually you're just saying I annually by anually you're just saying I annually by anually whatever whatever Rhythm you want to do whatever whatever Rhythm you want to do whatever whatever Rhythm you want to do I love annually that you just say you I love annually that you just say you I love annually that you just say you you facilitate a survey to get feedback you facilitate a survey to get feedback you facilitate a survey to get feedback um that's a starting point additionally um that's a starting point additionally um that's a starting point additionally um uh just good one-on-one so if you um uh just good one-on-one so if you um uh just good one-on-one so if you have good organizational rhythms where have good organizational rhythms where have good organizational rhythms where we're doing one-on-one meetings we have we're doing one-on-one meetings we have we're doing one-on-one meetings we have performance reviews and goals the more performance reviews and goals the more performance reviews and goals the more clearly you've defined and and I think clearly you've defined and and I think clearly you've defined and and I think this gets at your question a little bit this gets at your question a little bit this gets at your question a little bit is that if you haven't defined the is that if you haven't defined the is that if you haven't defined the culture it's hard to get feedback on it culture it's hard to get feedback on it culture it's hard to get feedback on it um now you can do the survey and if um now you can do the survey and if um now you can do the survey and if you're curious of like how is everybody you're curious of like how is everybody you're curious of like how is everybody what's the experience you might do a what's the experience you might do a what's the experience you might do a little focus group with some staff don't little focus group with some staff don't little focus group with some staff don't pick all your favorites who are going to pick all your favorites who are going to pick all your favorites who are going to tell you what you want to hear pick tell you what you want to hear pick tell you what you want to hear pick people from throughout the organization people from throughout the organization people from throughout the organization that are going to bring different that are going to bring different that are going to bring different perspectives and then just say hey what perspectives and then just say hey what perspectives and then just say hey what what do you think is important to us what do you think is important to us what do you think is important to us here based upon how we work what do you here based upon how we work what do you here based upon how we work what do you think's important to us here my favorite think's important to us here my favorite think's important to us here my favorite is to bring the the brand new person to is to bring the the brand new person to is to bring the the brand new person to staff who's only been there 30 or 60 staff who's only been there 30 or 60 staff who's only been there 30 or 60 days and say okay based upon your first days and say okay based upon your first days and say okay based upon your first couple of months what do you think is couple of months what do you think is couple of months what do you think is important to us based upon what you've important to us based upon what you've important to us based upon what you've experienced and that is telling that experienced and that is telling that experienced and that is telling that will create just a lot of awareness of

will create just a lot of awareness of will create just a lot of awareness of you know we say we value um uh ownership you know we say we value um uh ownership you know we say we value um uh ownership but everybody does the bare minimum you but everybody does the bare minimum you but everybody does the bare minimum you know we say that we value Excellence but know we say that we value Excellence but know we say that we value Excellence but we're kind of doing you know we're kind we're kind of doing you know we're kind we're kind of doing you know we're kind of just phoning it in most of the time of just phoning it in most of the time of just phoning it in most of the time yeah um or we say that we value work yeah um or we say that we value work yeah um or we say that we value work life balance but I see my leader here life balance but I see my leader here life balance but I see my leader here until 8:00 pm every night or you know I until 8:00 pm every night or you know I until 8:00 pm every night or you know I mean you fill in the Gap right but mean you fill in the Gap right but mean you fill in the Gap right but um it and I will say this Carrie the um it and I will say this Carrie the um it and I will say this Carrie the more unhealthier culture it is the more unhealthier culture it is the more unhealthier culture it is the harder it is to hear the truth get the harder it is to hear the truth get the harder it is to hear the truth get the truth of it because often times people truth of it because often times people truth of it because often times people will be afraid to actually tell you what will be afraid to actually tell you what will be afraid to actually tell you what the real experience is and that's where the real experience is and that's where the real experience is and that's where then typically you want a third party to then typically you want a third party to then typically you want a third party to help start drawing that out because it's help start drawing that out because it's help start drawing that out because it's sometimes quite difficult to get to the sometimes quite difficult to get to the sometimes quite difficult to get to the truth of your culture uh the more truth of your culture uh the more truth of your culture uh the more unhealthy it is I don't know if you unhealthy it is I don't know if you unhealthy it is I don't know if you found that to be true I think that's found that to be true I think that's found that to be true I think that's true because people are afraid to speak true because people are afraid to speak true because people are afraid to speak out against toxic leadership or uh out against toxic leadership or uh out against toxic leadership or uh they're afraid of losing their job and they're afraid of losing their job and they're afraid of losing their job and to that end like I totally get it we got to that end like I totally get it we got to that end like I totally get it we got a lot of large church leaders lisening a lot of large church leaders lisening a lot of large church leaders lisening large Business Leaders listening who large Business Leaders listening who large Business Leaders listening who could send out uh a survey to 30 50 300 could send out uh a survey to 30 50 300 could send out uh a survey to 30 50 300 staff but the majority of small business staff but the majority of small business staff but the majority of small business the majority of businesses and churches the majority of businesses and churches the majority of businesses and churches are small three or four people so where are small three or four people so where are small three or four people so where it's casual and relational where you all it's casual and relational where you all it's casual and relational where you all fit around the same table for lunch yep fit around the same table for lunch yep fit around the same table for lunch yep and it's very relational how do you get and it's very relational how do you get and it's very relational how do you get that kind of honest feedback because a that kind of honest feedback because a that kind of honest feedback because a survey it's going to be well I know that survey it's going to be well I know that survey it's going to be well I know that was Jenny who said that I can tell I can

was Jenny who said that I can tell I can was Jenny who said that I can tell I can tell by the way by her sentence you know tell by the way by her sentence you know tell by the way by her sentence you know that that's that's her so how do you how that that's that's her so how do you how that that's that's her so how do you how do you get that from a small team from a do you get that from a small team from a do you get that from a small team from a small team I would I mean I would start small team I would I mean I would start small team I would I mean I would start with just a with just a with just a around the table and if you know and around the table and if you know and around the table and if you know and this was a lot of emotional intelligence this was a lot of emotional intelligence this was a lot of emotional intelligence on your part as the leader to be humble on your part as the leader to be humble on your part as the leader to be humble enough to say hey I've noticed this this enough to say hey I've noticed this this enough to say hey I've noticed this this and this and I'm guessing that our and this and I'm guessing that our and this and I'm guessing that our culture isn't as good as I would hope it culture isn't as good as I would hope it culture isn't as good as I would hope it is can you tell me more about your is can you tell me more about your is can you tell me more about your experience you know can you tell me what experience you know can you tell me what experience you know can you tell me what stands out to you um so maybe assume stands out to you um so maybe assume stands out to you um so maybe assume it's not perfect don't go hey we have a it's not perfect don't go hey we have a it's not perfect don't go hey we have a great culture here what do you guys great culture here what do you guys great culture here what do you guys think and they're all gonna nod and say think and they're all gonna nod and say think and they're all gonna nod and say yes and tell you what you want to hear yes and tell you what you want to hear yes and tell you what you want to hear yeah okay keep going typically right um yeah okay keep going typically right um yeah okay keep going typically right um but then I think the opportunity there but then I think the opportunity there but then I think the opportunity there would also be find somebody trusted would also be find somebody trusted would also be find somebody trusted maybe it's an elder maybe it's a maybe it's an elder maybe it's a maybe it's an elder maybe it's a business leader in your church who's who business leader in your church who's who business leader in your church who's who is has good you know does some work in is has good you know does some work in is has good you know does some work in this area and say hey would you would this area and say hey would you would this area and say hey would you would you do a focus group with our staff just you do a focus group with our staff just you do a focus group with our staff just to kind of hear what's good what's not to kind of hear what's good what's not to kind of hear what's good what's not so good um and you know and asking a few so good um and you know and asking a few so good um and you know and asking a few questions about hey what what are I questions about hey what what are I questions about hey what what are I favorite questions and I borrowed this favorite questions and I borrowed this favorite questions and I borrowed this from somebody and I can't remember who I from somebody and I can't remember who I from somebody and I can't remember who I can come back and find it but the can come back and find it but the can come back and find it but the question is what do we look like at our question is what do we look like at our question is what do we look like at our best right what do we look like at our best right what do we look like at our best right what do we look like at our best that's a fun fun way to start a best that's a fun fun way to start a best that's a fun fun way to start a conversation because we all want to brag conversation because we all want to brag conversation because we all want to brag about what we look like at our best about what we look like at our best about what we look like at our best let's talk about a highlight for us as a let's talk about a highlight for us as a let's talk about a highlight for us as a team what did we look like what were we

team what did we look like what were we team what did we look like what were we doing what did you know what did we doing what did you know what did we doing what did you know what did we notice okay and what does it look like notice okay and what does it look like notice okay and what does it look like when we're not at our best and then we when we're not at our best and then we when we're not at our best and then we start you know kind of unpacking that a start you know kind of unpacking that a start you know kind of unpacking that a little bit okay which one of those is little bit okay which one of those is little bit okay which one of those is more true most of the time so that you more true most of the time so that you more true most of the time so that you know in some ways that kind of opens up know in some ways that kind of opens up know in some ways that kind of opens up the conversation without it feeling the conversation without it feeling the conversation without it feeling super personal or you know we're saying super personal or you know we're saying super personal or you know we're saying hey what do we look like at our best as hey what do we look like at our best as hey what do we look like at our best as a team so those are some fun convers or a team so those are some fun convers or a team so those are some fun convers or questions that start to open the questions that start to open the questions that start to open the conversation but again oftentimes a conversation but again oftentimes a conversation but again oftentimes a third party um can be a really helpful third party um can be a really helpful third party um can be a really helpful facilitator of that so you've been facilitator of that so you've been facilitator of that so you've been around organizations with great cultures around organizations with great cultures around organizations with great cultures incredible cultures uh I've been at incredible cultures uh I've been at incredible cultures uh I've been at Chick-fil-A headquarters I know they Chick-fil-A headquarters I know they Chick-fil-A headquarters I know they don't call it head ERS a few times this don't call it head ERS a few times this don't call it head ERS a few times this year uh really Blown Away by their year uh really Blown Away by their year uh really Blown Away by their culture and anybody who's been to a culture and anybody who's been to a culture and anybody who's been to a Chick-fil-A and sees 17-year-olds Chick-fil-A and sees 17-year-olds Chick-fil-A and sees 17-year-olds treating people like ladies and treating people like ladies and treating people like ladies and gentlemen realizes that there's gentlemen realizes that there's gentlemen realizes that there's something in the water supply there something in the water supply there something in the water supply there that's really at least I think admirable that's really at least I think admirable that's really at least I think admirable um what sets organizations that have um what sets organizations that have um what sets organizations that have incredible cultures apart what are they incredible cultures apart what are they incredible cultures apart what are they doing differently than people with doing differently than people with doing differently than people with mediocre or poor cultures yeah yeah um mediocre or poor cultures yeah yeah um mediocre or poor cultures yeah yeah um feel free to name names cuz we're feel free to name names cuz we're feel free to name names cuz we're talking about good good organizations talking about good good organizations talking about good good organizations for sure good organizations um the the for sure good organizations um the the for sure good organizations um the the big thing for me cl Carrie is Clarity I big thing for me cl Carrie is Clarity I big thing for me cl Carrie is Clarity I think Clarity is a chief indicator of think Clarity is a chief indicator of think Clarity is a chief indicator of the health of a culture so if we even the health of a culture so if we even the health of a culture so if we even just talk about Chick-fil-A for a minute just talk about Chick-fil-A for a minute just talk about Chick-fil-A for a minute there is such Clarity on what to expect there is such Clarity on what to expect there is such Clarity on what to expect from Chick-fil-A both by the employee from Chick-fil-A both by the employee from Chick-fil-A both by the employee and by us as the customer the cascading

and by us as the customer the cascading and by us as the customer the cascading effect is that we have an expectation if effect is that we have an expectation if effect is that we have an expectation if somebody doesn't say it's my pleasure somebody doesn't say it's my pleasure somebody doesn't say it's my pleasure somewhere in our experience at somewhere in our experience at somewhere in our experience at Chick-fil-A we're like um something Chick-fil-A we're like um something Chick-fil-A we're like um something something's off you know like that's not something's off you know like that's not something's off you know like that's not because we know that is not their because we know that is not their because we know that is not their culture so the and that's just one of a culture so the and that's just one of a culture so the and that's just one of a myriad of things that they do that they myriad of things that they do that they myriad of things that they do that they provide incredible clarity about what it provide incredible clarity about what it provide incredible clarity about what it means to succeed there and that's what I means to succeed there and that's what I means to succeed there and that's what I find true of of organizations that have find true of of organizations that have find true of of organizations that have great cultures are really clear of that great cultures are really clear of that great cultures are really clear of that definition who are we and how do we work definition who are we and how do we work definition who are we and how do we work together to achieve the mission like we together to achieve the mission like we together to achieve the mission like we are super clear about the values beliefs are super clear about the values beliefs are super clear about the values beliefs behaviors that guide how we interact behaviors that guide how we interact behaviors that guide how we interact we're clear about we're trying to we're clear about we're trying to we're clear about we're trying to accomplish together we're clear about accomplish together we're clear about accomplish together we're clear about everybody's role and how they can everybody's role and how they can everybody's role and how they can contribute and how we win together um contribute and how we win together um contribute and how we win together um the goals the responsibilities all of the goals the responsibilities all of the goals the responsibilities all of those things are hyper clear and that's those things are hyper clear and that's those things are hyper clear and that's the thing that to me Carrie unlocks the thing that to me Carrie unlocks the thing that to me Carrie unlocks cultures is a lot of times we think cultures is a lot of times we think cultures is a lot of times we think culture is just this relational fluffy culture is just this relational fluffy culture is just this relational fluffy stuff when in actuality a lot of the stuff when in actuality a lot of the stuff when in actuality a lot of the clarity that comes through structure and clarity that comes through structure and clarity that comes through structure and roles and responsibilities and goals and roles and responsibilities and goals and roles and responsibilities and goals and our values is the thing that actually our values is the thing that actually our values is the thing that actually helps team members confidently helps team members confidently helps team members confidently contribute like you quickly know like contribute like you quickly know like contribute like you quickly know like that uh uh example you had of um the job that uh uh example you had of um the job that uh uh example you had of um the job in and uh college right government job in and uh college right government job in and uh college right government job yeah the government job like you C yeah the government job like you C yeah the government job like you C clearly clearly clearly knew what how they work and you were knew what how they work and you were knew what how they work and you were like this is not me like this is not me like this is not me like this is not me like this is not me like this is not me like it was clear like that's a bad get

like it was clear like that's a bad get like it was clear like that's a bad get out of here I got to get out of here out of here I got to get out of here out of here I got to get out of here they were your boss in that case was they were your boss in that case was they were your boss in that case was clear about their culture this is not clear about their culture this is not clear about their culture this is not you know this is how we work or not how you know this is how we work or not how you know this is how we work or not how we work so we work so we work so the organizations that are hyper clear the organizations that are hyper clear the organizations that are hyper clear about and and and you've named this a about and and and you've named this a about and and and you've named this a couple of times in our conversation so couple of times in our conversation so couple of times in our conversation so far but most leaders leave culture to far but most leaders leave culture to far but most leaders leave culture to chance because they intuitively just chance because they intuitively just chance because they intuitively just kind of feel it like it's like I kind of kind of feel it like it's like I kind of kind of feel it like it's like I kind of get it I know what I know how we do get it I know what I know how we do get it I know what I know how we do things here but again by the time you've things here but again by the time you've things here but again by the time you've surpassed a handful of team surpassed a handful of team surpassed a handful of team members it it is it is it's starting to members it it is it is it's starting to members it it is it is it's starting to get fuzzy like because not every they get fuzzy like because not every they get fuzzy like because not every they can't all read your mind they don't all can't all read your mind they don't all can't all read your mind they don't all have prox with you every day day in and have prox with you every day day in and have prox with you every day day in and day out and especially now with hybrid day out and especially now with hybrid day out and especially now with hybrid work Dynamics and things where we're not work Dynamics and things where we're not work Dynamics and things where we're not in proximity to the way we used to be in proximity to the way we used to be in proximity to the way we used to be leaders have to get hyper clear about leaders have to get hyper clear about leaders have to get hyper clear about what is how do we Define healthy culture what is how do we Define healthy culture what is how do we Define healthy culture here like what is really important to us here like what is really important to us here like what is really important to us here what are those values what are the here what are those values what are the here what are those values what are the beliefs what are the behaviors what are beliefs what are the behaviors what are beliefs what are the behaviors what are the things that are distinctive to us the things that are distinctive to us the things that are distinctive to us that and then the clarity of those that and then the clarity of those that and then the clarity of those organizational dynamics that helps me organizational dynamics that helps me organizational dynamics that helps me know as an employee here's how I can know as an employee here's how I can know as an employee here's how I can show up and win because that's what show up and win because that's what show up and win because that's what every employee is asking he like hey I'm every employee is asking he like hey I'm every employee is asking he like hey I'm here because I want to help us achieve here because I want to help us achieve here because I want to help us achieve this Mission and I want to know how to this Mission and I want to know how to this Mission and I want to know how to do that I want to know how I can succeed do that I want to know how I can succeed do that I want to know how I can succeed in helping contribute to this and in helping contribute to this and in helping contribute to this and anywhere that's fuzzy you start to get anywhere that's fuzzy you start to get anywhere that's fuzzy you start to get some disengagement um and disconnection some disengagement um and disconnection some disengagement um and disconnection I probably went further than you asked I probably went further than you asked I probably went further than you asked but no that's that's great you know to but no that's that's great you know to but no that's that's great you know to your point on Clarity the backstory I've your point on Clarity the backstory I've your point on Clarity the backstory I've gotten from Chick-fil-A Executives never

gotten from Chick-fil-A Executives never gotten from Chick-fil-A Executives never met true at Kathy uh but have spent a met true at Kathy uh but have spent a met true at Kathy uh but have spent a lot of time at Chick-fil-A uh they lot of time at Chick-fil-A uh they lot of time at Chick-fil-A uh they borrowed my pleasure from the Ritz borrowed my pleasure from the Ritz borrowed my pleasure from the Ritz Carlton and hor Schultz and hor Schultz Carlton and hor Schultz and hor Schultz Carlton and hor Schultz and hor Schultz said he thought it was not the right said he thought it was not the right said he thought it was not the right thing to do because Ritz Carlton's a thing to do because Ritz Carlton's a thing to do because Ritz Carlton's a luxury brand Chick-fil-A is a quick luxury brand Chick-fil-A is a quick luxury brand Chick-fil-A is a quick service restaurant but Tru it was really service restaurant but Tru it was really service restaurant but Tru it was really taken by it and he told people to start taken by it and he told people to start taken by it and he told people to start substituting my pleasure for your substituting my pleasure for your substituting my pleasure for your welcome and it didn't take it didn't welcome and it didn't take it didn't welcome and it didn't take it didn't take and then he had to repeat it and I take and then he had to repeat it and I take and then he had to repeat it and I think it was if if I've got the story think it was if if I've got the story think it was if if I've got the story right three years in a row and finally right three years in a row and finally right three years in a row and finally he's like no I am serious we are we are he's like no I am serious we are we are he's like no I am serious we are we are Banning you're welcome and we're all Banning you're welcome and we're all Banning you're welcome and we're all going to say my pleasure and now it's going to say my pleasure and now it's going to say my pleasure and now it's spread across whole Industries like so spread across whole Industries like so spread across whole Industries like so many non- Chick-fil-A places saying my many non- Chick-fil-A places saying my many non- Chick-fil-A places saying my pleasure but but that was intentionality pleasure but but that was intentionality pleasure but but that was intentionality and his first time apparently was not and his first time apparently was not and his first time apparently was not effective I've heard that same story and effective I've heard that same story and effective I've heard that same story and I love it yeah I love it so much because I love it yeah I love it so much because I love it yeah I love it so much because I think it's also a reminder one of the I think it's also a reminder one of the I think it's also a reminder one of the convictions I hold around culture is convictions I hold around culture is convictions I hold around culture is it's patient and persistent work and I it's patient and persistent work and I it's patient and persistent work and I think that's the challenge right because think that's the challenge right because think that's the challenge right because typically leaders are fast moving moving typically leaders are fast moving moving typically leaders are fast moving moving we like things to happen quickly and the we like things to happen quickly and the we like things to happen quickly and the reality of culture is that you know some reality of culture is that you know some reality of culture is that you know some some data will tell you it takes 3 to 5 some data will tell you it takes 3 to 5 some data will tell you it takes 3 to 5 years to shift your culture right like years to shift your culture right like years to shift your culture right like so whatever you're experiencing today so whatever you're experiencing today so whatever you're experiencing today again it depends on how big of a shift again it depends on how big of a shift again it depends on how big of a shift you need to make but it's three to five you need to make but it's three to five you need to make but it's three to five years and that plays out in the years and that plays out in the years and that plays out in the Chick-fil-A story and that Tru wanted to Chick-fil-A story and that Tru wanted to Chick-fil-A story and that Tru wanted to change the culture of the organization change the culture of the organization change the culture of the organization to say my pleasure instead of you're

to say my pleasure instead of you're to say my pleasure instead of you're welcome and after three years it's still welcome and after three years it's still welcome and after three years it's still not working right and he has to like not working right and he has to like not working right and he has to like continue to just pound that drum of like continue to just pound that drum of like continue to just pound that drum of like hey this is this is who we are this is hey this is this is who we are this is hey this is this is who we are this is how we work together to serve our how we work together to serve our how we work together to serve our customers and uh so I just think I think customers and uh so I just think I think customers and uh so I just think I think that's an that's noteworthy and that um that's an that's noteworthy and that um that's an that's noteworthy and that um shifting a culture or um uh committing shifting a culture or um uh committing shifting a culture or um uh committing to something that is very distinctive to something that is very distinctive to something that is very distinctive about who you are that's a very distinct about who you are that's a very distinct about who you are that's a very distinct thing about the Chick-fil-A culture but thing about the Chick-fil-A culture but thing about the Chick-fil-A culture but there's something like that in every one there's something like that in every one there's something like that in every one of our organizations you know for one of of our organizations you know for one of of our organizations you know for one of the churches that I led we were hyper the churches that I led we were hyper the churches that I led we were hyper committed and this was you know 15 years committed and this was you know 15 years committed and this was you know 15 years ago we were hyper committed to community ago we were hyper committed to community ago we were hyper committed to community groups and it was the almost the groups and it was the almost the groups and it was the almost the singular thing that we talked about from singular thing that we talked about from singular thing that we talked about from the stage like we because we were we the stage like we because we were we the stage like we because we were we were Vigilant about not having a zillion were Vigilant about not having a zillion were Vigilant about not having a zillion announcements and so we were but we were announcements and so we were but we were announcements and so we were but we were committed we wanted 80% of our attendees committed we wanted 80% of our attendees committed we wanted 80% of our attendees in a small group like and so that's a in a small group like and so that's a in a small group like and so that's a big number right but that was like that big number right but that was like that big number right but that was like that was core to the culture we wanted to was core to the culture we wanted to was core to the culture we wanted to create we wanted people in community we create we wanted people in community we create we wanted people in community we wanted them connected to one another and wanted them connected to one another and wanted them connected to one another and and so we would talk about that nearly and so we would talk about that nearly and so we would talk about that nearly every weekend from stage and my favorite every weekend from stage and my favorite every weekend from stage and my favorite thing when I could tell that it was thing when I could tell that it was thing when I could tell that it was actually in the water so to speak was I actually in the water so to speak was I actually in the water so to speak was I would meet somebody the grocery store or would meet somebody the grocery store or would meet somebody the grocery store or something and they might recognize me something and they might recognize me something and they might recognize me because I was in front a lot and they because I was in front a lot and they because I was in front a lot and they would say hey we just started you know would say hey we just started you know would say hey we just started you know we've been attending for like six months we've been attending for like six months we've been attending for like six months and we love it and blah blah blah but and we love it and blah blah blah but and we love it and blah blah blah but we're not in a small group yet and I we're not in a small group yet and I we're not in a small group yet and I loved it because they knew that was our loved it because they knew that was our loved it because they knew that was our culture they knew that's how we work

culture they knew that's how we work culture they knew that's how we work together here and uh and so those are together here and uh and so those are together here and uh and so those are the kind of things of like those that the kind of things of like those that the kind of things of like those that definition of what's really important to definition of what's really important to definition of what's really important to us what's really core to who we are and us what's really core to who we are and us what's really core to who we are and how we live out our mission and then we how we live out our mission and then we how we live out our mission and then we have to be talking about it constantly have to be talking about it constantly have to be talking about it constantly for it to really become true to who we for it to really become true to who we for it to really become true to who we are and for people to understand that are and for people to understand that are and for people to understand that expectation so there's a a good number expectation so there's a a good number expectation so there's a a good number of leaders listening who are in the of leaders listening who are in the of leaders listening who are in the senior seat who have control over senior seat who have control over senior seat who have control over culture but there's also a good number culture but there's also a good number culture but there's also a good number of leaders who are like you in your late of leaders who are like you in your late of leaders who are like you in your late 20s after the merger who who are a 20s after the merger who who are a 20s after the merger who who are a victim of B culture in other words like victim of B culture in other words like victim of B culture in other words like hey I'm not I'm not the senior leader we hey I'm not I'm not the senior leader we hey I'm not I'm not the senior leader we got a bad culture here at our church got a bad culture here at our church got a bad culture here at our church what advice do you have for people in what advice do you have for people in what advice do you have for people in the second chair third chair yeah yeah the second chair third chair yeah yeah the second chair third chair yeah yeah yeah non- senior leaders I that's I yeah non- senior leaders I that's I yeah non- senior leaders I that's I appreciate that so much cuz we get that appreciate that so much cuz we get that appreciate that so much cuz we get that question a lot because they're the ones question a lot because they're the ones question a lot because they're the ones most deeply feeling it and experiencing most deeply feeling it and experiencing most deeply feeling it and experiencing it and also I will I will note this it and also I will I will note this it and also I will I will note this Carrie I've had the privilege I'm in a Carrie I've had the privilege I'm in a Carrie I've had the privilege I'm in a cohort right now with Bara and we're cohort right now with Bara and we're cohort right now with Bara and we're doing doing some uh research on trends doing doing some uh research on trends doing doing some uh research on trends at work and some of the things that at work and some of the things that at work and some of the things that we're doing around that Co in that we're doing around that Co in that we're doing around that Co in that cohort right now we're just looking at cohort right now we're just looking at cohort right now we're just looking at the different generations and how they the different generations and how they the different generations and how they engage work and culture matters engage work and culture matters engage work and culture matters significantly to younger Generations um significantly to younger Generations um significantly to younger Generations um part of that is that uh this is some of part of that is that uh this is some of part of that is that uh this is some of their first work experiences um their their first work experiences um their their first work experiences um their work and life are integrated more than work and life are integrated more than work and life are integrated more than ever you know you and I can remember

ever you know you and I can remember ever you know you and I can remember when we didn't have little devices that when we didn't have little devices that when we didn't have little devices that in our pocket and basically we had in our pocket and basically we had in our pocket and basically we had connection to the entire world at the connection to the entire world at the connection to the entire world at the whole all the time I remember having whole all the time I remember having whole all the time I remember having this big ginormous computer on my this big ginormous computer on my this big ginormous computer on my desktop at work and I came in and I desktop at work and I came in and I desktop at work and I came in and I logged in and booted up and I shut it logged in and booted up and I shut it logged in and booted up and I shut it down at the end of the night and I went down at the end of the night and I went down at the end of the night and I went home and I didn't typically talk to home and I didn't typically talk to home and I didn't typically talk to anybody from work or answer an email or anybody from work or answer an email or anybody from work or answer an email or a slack message or anything until the a slack message or anything until the a slack message or anything until the next morning when I went back in and next morning when I went back in and next morning when I went back in and booted up the comp it was almost like booted up the comp it was almost like booted up the comp it was almost like working at a factory right where the working at a factory right where the working at a factory right where the Machinery stayed at the factory but you Machinery stayed at the factory but you Machinery stayed at the factory but you went home went home went home 100% my my time in law was like that it 100% my my time in law was like that it 100% my my time in law was like that it was like you if you brought a file home was like you if you brought a file home was like you if you brought a file home you literally had to bring a manila file you literally had to bring a manila file you literally had to bring a manila file home and nobody did it because if you home and nobody did it because if you home and nobody did it because if you lost it you were in big trouble big lost it you were in big trouble big lost it you were in big trouble big trouble big trouble and so our trouble big trouble and so our trouble big trouble and so our generation who are mostly in leadership generation who are mostly in leadership generation who are mostly in leadership right now um we we are we still right now um we we are we still right now um we we are we still compartmentalize a little bit more not compartmentalize a little bit more not compartmentalize a little bit more not as much because we've learned to adapt as much because we've learned to adapt as much because we've learned to adapt to all those tools but my point being to all those tools but my point being to all those tools but my point being the younger generation their entire life the younger generation their entire life the younger generation their entire life has been integrated right like they I has been integrated right like they I has been integrated right like they I mean they are digital natives everything mean they are digital natives everything mean they are digital natives everything is integrated for them and so they are is integrated for them and so they are is integrated for them and so they are not looking to compartmentalize their not looking to compartmentalize their not looking to compartmentalize their life quite as much so they want their life quite as much so they want their life quite as much so they want their work to be fulfilling they want their work to be fulfilling they want their work to be fulfilling they want their work to be meaningful they want to be a work to be meaningful they want to be a work to be meaningful they want to be a part of cultures that actually inspire part of cultures that actually inspire part of cultures that actually inspire and engage them and again I think all of and engage them and again I think all of and engage them and again I think all of us have wanted that but I think they us have wanted that but I think they us have wanted that but I think they prioritize it more because they're not prioritize it more because they're not prioritize it more because they're not looking to compartmentalize quite as looking to compartmentalize quite as looking to compartmentalize quite as distinctly as we did they're M distinctly as we did they're M distinctly as we did they're M everything's much more integrated to everything's much more integrated to everything's much more integrated to them so culture is a big deal to them so

them so culture is a big deal to them so them so culture is a big deal to them so to get back to your question to get back to your question to get back to your question to that younger leader who has more to that younger leader who has more to that younger leader who has more influence rather than Authority in the influence rather than Authority in the influence rather than Authority in the organization I would start getting organization I would start getting organization I would start getting curious and asking your leaders hey tell curious and asking your leaders hey tell curious and asking your leaders hey tell me more about what you hope for what do me more about what you hope for what do me more about what you hope for what do you aspire to what do you think we look you aspire to what do you think we look you aspire to what do you think we look like at our best right because it's a like at our best right because it's a like at our best right because it's a little bit of like in your case your little bit of like in your case your little bit of like in your case your boss came to you and was like hey this boss came to you and was like hey this boss came to you and was like hey this is how we do things and you're not in is how we do things and you're not in is how we do things and you're not in alignment with that which is yeah but alignment with that which is yeah but alignment with that which is yeah but it's it's the reverse of that of of you it's it's the reverse of that of of you it's it's the reverse of that of of you as the younger leader going to or as the younger leader going to or as the younger leader going to or younger individ uh younger employee younger individ uh younger employee younger individ uh younger employee going to your leader and saying hey can going to your leader and saying hey can going to your leader and saying hey can you tell me more about like what do we you tell me more about like what do we you tell me more about like what do we look like at our best what are the look like at our best what are the look like at our best what are the values that guide us what's really values that guide us what's really values that guide us what's really important to you that you think I should important to you that you think I should important to you that you think I should know I would go from a curiosity know I would go from a curiosity know I would go from a curiosity standpoint so that you can get clarity standpoint so that you can get clarity standpoint so that you can get clarity on if you don't feel like the culture is on if you don't feel like the culture is on if you don't feel like the culture is great you want to make sure you know great you want to make sure you know great you want to make sure you know what the leader aspires to because if what the leader aspires to because if what the leader aspires to because if what the leader aspires to is not what what the leader aspires to is not what what the leader aspires to is not what you you like find fulfilling well then you you like find fulfilling well then you you like find fulfilling well then you have a question to just to determine you have a question to just to determine you have a question to just to determine whether that's a culture you want to whether that's a culture you want to whether that's a culture you want to stay a part of I'm going to guess that stay a part of I'm going to guess that stay a part of I'm going to guess that in most cases that leader is going to in most cases that leader is going to in most cases that leader is going to tell you something that they aspire to tell you something that they aspire to tell you something that they aspire to that you probably 90% agree with and that you probably 90% agree with and that you probably 90% agree with and then looking for because as you show then looking for because as you show then looking for because as you show interest in them it ideally hopefully interest in them it ideally hopefully interest in them it ideally hopefully they're going to show interest in they're going to show interest in they're going to show interest in learning what the experience is like for learning what the experience is like for learning what the experience is like for you so what I'm suggesting is open a you so what I'm suggesting is open a you so what I'm suggesting is open a two-way com come conversation where you two-way com come conversation where you two-way com come conversation where you want to learn from your leader what's want to learn from your leader what's want to learn from your leader what's important how do we succeed here how can

important how do we succeed here how can important how do we succeed here how can I help contribute in a meaningful way I help contribute in a meaningful way I help contribute in a meaningful way and ideally that's going to open up some and ideally that's going to open up some and ideally that's going to open up some conversation for that leader to say okay conversation for that leader to say okay conversation for that leader to say okay so tell me is that what you experience so tell me is that what you experience so tell me is that what you experience and maybe you know you can offer that up and maybe you know you can offer that up and maybe you know you can offer that up again with good emotional intelligence again with good emotional intelligence again with good emotional intelligence you can say you know what I really want you can say you know what I really want you can say you know what I really want what you're describing but can I tell what you're describing but can I tell what you're describing but can I tell you a little bit of what I'm you a little bit of what I'm you a little bit of what I'm experiencing because it it is likely experiencing because it it is likely experiencing because it it is likely that the leader isn't aware of the the that the leader isn't aware of the the that the leader isn't aware of the the experience in the day-to-day now don't experience in the day-to-day now don't experience in the day-to-day now don't go in there with like you know guns go in there with like you know guns go in there with like you know guns blazing like ready to like you know sh blazing like ready to like you know sh blazing like ready to like you know sh point out how everything's awful um but point out how everything's awful um but point out how everything's awful um but I think if you go with curiosity and I think if you go with curiosity and I think if you go with curiosity and then you create a conversation where then you create a conversation where then you create a conversation where maybe you're able to share that's a maybe you're able to share that's a maybe you're able to share that's a starting point the other thing I would starting point the other thing I would starting point the other thing I would say is just model what you hope to be say is just model what you hope to be say is just model what you hope to be true like if you want collaborative team true like if you want collaborative team true like if you want collaborative team members collaborate with others if you members collaborate with others if you members collaborate with others if you want better communication be a better want better communication be a better want better communication be a better Communicator yourself like whatever you Communicator yourself like whatever you Communicator yourself like whatever you think would would enhance and make your think would would enhance and make your think would would enhance and make your team better start doing it because team better start doing it because team better start doing it because because you're it's likely that you're because you're it's likely that you're because you're it's likely that you're going to help um influence the culture going to help um influence the culture going to help um influence the culture and with those things maybe your boss and with those things maybe your boss and with those things maybe your boss will reprimand you for that or maybe not will reprimand you for that or maybe not will reprimand you for that or maybe not uh we'll see and that'll be telling uh we'll see and that'll be telling uh we'll see and that'll be telling that'll be telling so do you think one that'll be telling so do you think one that'll be telling so do you think one of the reasons that younger workers are of the reasons that younger workers are of the reasons that younger workers are so sensitive to culture is because they so sensitive to culture is because they so sensitive to culture is because they see the choice that they have in other see the choice that they have in other see the choice that they have in other words when I was starting out it was words when I was starting out it was words when I was starting out it was like oh you're lucky to get a job oh you like oh you're lucky to get a job oh you like oh you're lucky to get a job oh you know here's a law firm here's a church know here's a law firm here's a church know here's a law firm here's a church that would take me we didn't have

that would take me we didn't have that would take me we didn't have googleable it was it was kind of like googleable it was it was kind of like googleable it was it was kind of like you know googleable options we just you know googleable options we just you know googleable options we just didn't have them and now you know a lot didn't have them and now you know a lot didn't have them and now you know a lot of leaders who listen to this are of leaders who listen to this are of leaders who listen to this are younger they're going to be like yeah younger they're going to be like yeah younger they're going to be like yeah that's all we've ever had right like that's all we've ever had right like that's all we've ever had right like totally I I met my wife at law school totally I I met my wife at law school totally I I met my wife at law school and it was like I was 23 she was 25 and and it was like I was 23 she was 25 and and it was like I was 23 she was 25 and it was one of those things where I'm it was one of those things where I'm it was one of those things where I'm like oh yeah she's the best I've met but like oh yeah she's the best I've met but like oh yeah she's the best I've met but I didn't think that I had four billion I didn't think that I had four billion I didn't think that I had four billion options and I'm kind of glad I didn't do options and I'm kind of glad I didn't do options and I'm kind of glad I didn't do you know what I mean yeah decision you know what I mean yeah decision you know what I mean yeah decision fatigue that's way too much paralysis a fatigue that's way too much paralysis a fatigue that's way too much paralysis a choice like come on but if it's like choice like come on but if it's like choice like come on but if it's like okay if this isn't good I'm not going to okay if this isn't good I'm not going to okay if this isn't good I'm not going to work for you Carrie I'm going to go work work for you Carrie I'm going to go work work for you Carrie I'm going to go work for Jenny and I'll just hop over whether for Jenny and I'll just hop over whether for Jenny and I'll just hop over whether that's realized or not is that a factor that's realized or not is that a factor that's realized or not is that a factor at all do you think I think that's a big at all do you think I think that's a big at all do you think I think that's a big factor I think they're much more aware factor I think they're much more aware factor I think they're much more aware again because of their exposure to so again because of their exposure to so again because of their exposure to so many different opportunities yeah uh many different opportunities yeah uh many different opportunities yeah uh they they're not as afraid of in fact they they're not as afraid of in fact they they're not as afraid of in fact you know uh they will leave a job even you know uh they will leave a job even you know uh they will leave a job even without another job if they are not without another job if they are not without another job if they are not happy in that role again because they happy in that role again because they happy in that role again because they grown up in an economy that's been grown up in an economy that's been grown up in an economy that's been strong and healthy and so they've had strong and healthy and so they've had strong and healthy and so they've had options but they and but then options but they and but then options but they and but then everything's at their fingertips you everything's at their fingertips you everything's at their fingertips you know it's like they can and and the gig know it's like they can and and the gig know it's like they can and and the gig economy is bigger than it's ever been so economy is bigger than it's ever been so economy is bigger than it's ever been so they're like well I'll just go create they're like well I'll just go create they're like well I'll just go create something if I can't find the type of something if I can't find the type of something if I can't find the type of environment I want to be in so we could environment I want to be in so we could environment I want to be in so we could debate whether that's right or wrong or debate whether that's right or wrong or debate whether that's right or wrong or you know like is going to play out the you know like is going to play out the you know like is going to play out the way they think it's going to play out way they think it's going to play out way they think it's going to play out but the but I think you're exactly right but the but I think you're exactly right but the but I think you're exactly right they they know they have options and they they know they have options and they they know they have options and they're not as afraid to take the chance

they're not as afraid to take the chance they're not as afraid to take the chance and because they've seen they've seen and because they've seen they've seen and because they've seen they've seen other opportunities they've seen they've other opportunities they've seen they've other opportunities they've seen they've seen better experiences they just seen better experiences they just seen better experiences they just they've seen things where they know they've seen things where they know they've seen things where they know culture can be better yeah by the way I culture can be better yeah by the way I culture can be better yeah by the way I think I made a really great choice in uh think I made a really great choice in uh think I made a really great choice in uh life partner my wife I just I need to life partner my wife I just I need to life partner my wife I just I need to say that I don't think four billion say that I don't think four billion say that I don't think four billion options would have made it an ounce options would have made it an ounce options would have made it an ounce better um no you got you got you got the better um no you got you got you got the better um no you got you got you got the best one she's fantastic so because best one she's fantastic so because best one she's fantastic so because because there's uh so much of a talent because there's uh so much of a talent because there's uh so much of a talent War at churches and we already talked War at churches and we already talked War at churches and we already talked about younger Generations like there's a about younger Generations like there's a about younger Generations like there's a talent War for leaders in their 40s and talent War for leaders in their 40s and talent War for leaders in their 40s and 50s there's a huge Talent War for young 50s there's a huge Talent War for young 50s there's a huge Talent War for young leaders in their 20s and 30s right how leaders in their 20s and 30s right how leaders in their 20s and 30s right how much does culture play a factor in the much does culture play a factor in the much does culture play a factor in the talent deficit that so many churches are talent deficit that so many churches are talent deficit that so many churches are facing in your view this episode is facing in your view this episode is facing in your view this episode is brought to you by ecfa trust is the brought to you by ecfa trust is the brought to you by ecfa trust is the Cornerstone of impactful ministry and as Cornerstone of impactful ministry and as Cornerstone of impactful ministry and as leaders and donors you know that leaders and donors you know that leaders and donors you know that integrity and accountability are integrity and accountability are integrity and accountability are non-negotiable and that's where ecfa non-negotiable and that's where ecfa non-negotiable and that's where ecfa comes in for over four decades ecfa has comes in for over four decades ecfa has comes in for over four decades ecfa has been a beacon of trust holding been a beacon of trust holding been a beacon of trust holding Ministries to biblical standards of Ministries to biblical standards of Ministries to biblical standards of financial accountability and governance financial accountability and governance financial accountability and governance today more than 2700 organizations today more than 2700 organizations today more than 2700 organizations proudly display the ecfa seal signaling proudly display the ecfa seal signaling proudly display the ecfa seal signaling to millions of donors that their to millions of donors that their to millions of donors that their contributions are stewarded with utmost contributions are stewarded with utmost contributions are stewarded with utmost care for Ministry leaders ecfa offers a care for Ministry leaders ecfa offers a care for Ministry leaders ecfa offers a way to demonstrate accountability and way to demonstrate accountability and way to demonstrate accountability and build confidence and for donors it's a build confidence and for donors it's a build confidence and for donors it's a reminder that their generosity is reminder that their generosity is reminder that their generosity is helping Advance God's work with

helping Advance God's work with helping Advance God's work with Integrity trust is something we build Integrity trust is something we build Integrity trust is something we build together one Ministry one donor one step together one Ministry one donor one step together one Ministry one donor one step at a time you can learn more at ecfa at a time you can learn more at ecfa at a time you can learn more at ecfa dogt Triumph that's e cfa.org SL Triumph dogt Triumph that's e cfa.org SL Triumph dogt Triumph that's e cfa.org SL Triumph I'm biased I think it's a big factor um I'm biased I think it's a big factor um I'm biased I think it's a big factor um I think that again we're what we're I think that again we're what we're I think that again we're what we're finding is that people's tenure on any finding is that people's tenure on any finding is that people's tenure on any team is less than it's ever been it's team is less than it's ever been it's team is less than it's ever been it's you know bordering on Less Than 3 years you know bordering on Less Than 3 years you know bordering on Less Than 3 years is the average tenure for somebody in a is the average tenure for somebody in a is the average tenure for somebody in a job I did not know that seriously it job I did not know that seriously it job I did not know that seriously it seriously who so it is fascinating we seriously who so it is fascinating we seriously who so it is fascinating we just we don't stay in one place very just we don't stay in one place very just we don't stay in one place very long and so I think and this is why I long and so I think and this is why I long and so I think and this is why I think culture is so powerful because you think culture is so powerful because you think culture is so powerful because you know this Carrie you've LED Church teams know this Carrie you've LED Church teams know this Carrie you've LED Church teams you're leading your team now like the you're leading your team now like the you're leading your team now like the cost of turnover is exorbitant right cost of turnover is exorbitant right cost of turnover is exorbitant right like it is I mean we estimate it's two like it is I mean we estimate it's two like it is I mean we estimate it's two to three times a salary to you know the to three times a salary to you know the to three times a salary to you know the the replacement cost so to speak stop the replacement cost so to speak stop the replacement cost so to speak stop right there because I knew that stat but right there because I knew that stat but right there because I knew that stat but it wasn't until a few years ago I it wasn't until a few years ago I it wasn't until a few years ago I actually did the math on it like for actually did the math on it like for actually did the math on it like for real so if you're paying someone $50,000 real so if you're paying someone $50,000 real so if you're paying someone $50,000 a year I just want to amplify the point a year I just want to amplify the point a year I just want to amplify the point you're making yep how much is it going you're making yep how much is it going you're making yep how much is it going to cost you if somebody leaves 100 to to cost you if somebody leaves 100 to to cost you if somebody leaves 100 to 150,000 potentially yeah plus probably a 150,000 potentially yeah plus probably a 150,000 potentially yeah plus probably a higher salary for the person you just higher salary for the person you just higher salary for the person you just replaced them at that's right yep so so replaced them at that's right yep so so replaced them at that's right yep so so that's a six figure loss that's a six figure loss that's a six figure loss that's right not to mention the pain on

that's right not to mention the pain on that's right not to mention the pain on the rest of the staff while especially the rest of the staff while especially the rest of the staff while especially because again a lot of the folks because again a lot of the folks because again a lot of the folks listening our teams are not ginormous listening our teams are not ginormous listening our teams are not ginormous and so it's hard to absorb when we lose and so it's hard to absorb when we lose and so it's hard to absorb when we lose somebody on the team it's hard to absorb somebody on the team it's hard to absorb somebody on the team it's hard to absorb that other staff members have to pick up that other staff members have to pick up that other staff members have to pick up more responsibility and so that's the more responsibility and so that's the more responsibility and so that's the there's a toil there that's not even there's a toil there that's not even there's a toil there that's not even calculated into that figure um and so calculated into that figure um and so calculated into that figure um and so yeah it's just outrageously expensive to yeah it's just outrageously expensive to yeah it's just outrageously expensive to lose people and so great cultures retain lose people and so great cultures retain lose people and so great cultures retain great talent right like and so and part great talent right like and so and part great talent right like and so and part of this Carrie is the clearer you get of this Carrie is the clearer you get of this Carrie is the clearer you get about your culture like who we are and about your culture like who we are and about your culture like who we are and how we work together to achieve our how we work together to achieve our how we work together to achieve our mission the more definition you put mission the more definition you put mission the more definition you put around that then that starts to guide around that then that starts to guide around that then that starts to guide your interviewing your hiring your your interviewing your hiring your your interviewing your hiring your onboarding your training your onboarding your training your onboarding your training your performance review plans and systems performance review plans and systems performance review plans and systems like it starts to infiltrate everything like it starts to infiltrate everything like it starts to infiltrate everything you do so that you're reinforcing that you do so that you're reinforcing that you do so that you're reinforcing that culture at every point of an employees culture at every point of an employees culture at every point of an employees Journey with your organization and then Journey with your organization and then Journey with your organization and then the the the goal being hey and we know the the the goal being hey and we know the the the goal being hey and we know not everybody stays for forever because not everybody stays for forever because not everybody stays for forever because sometimes people are called on to sometimes people are called on to sometimes people are called on to different things and we want to different things and we want to different things and we want to celebrate that I'm not suggesting that celebrate that I'm not suggesting that celebrate that I'm not suggesting that we're trying to keep people for forever we're trying to keep people for forever we're trying to keep people for forever but what I am saying is that the clearer but what I am saying is that the clearer but what I am saying is that the clearer we are about culture and how purposeful we are about culture and how purposeful we are about culture and how purposeful we are in the hiring and interviewing we are in the hiring and interviewing we are in the hiring and interviewing process the greater chance of getting process the greater chance of getting process the greater chance of getting the right fit because a bad fit is also the right fit because a bad fit is also the right fit because a bad fit is also a really painful and expensive situation a really painful and expensive situation a really painful and expensive situation yeah um the better chance we are of yeah um the better chance we are of yeah um the better chance we are of getting a right fit and the better getting a right fit and the better getting a right fit and the better chance we have of retaining them longer chance we have of retaining them longer chance we have of retaining them longer than that three-year average and that

than that three-year average and that than that three-year average and that you know and so I I I I I wish I had you know and so I I I I I wish I had you know and so I I I I I wish I had this memorized but there's a place in my this memorized but there's a place in my this memorized but there's a place in my upcoming book where I talk about kind of upcoming book where I talk about kind of upcoming book where I talk about kind of that spiral of if you know if we're not that spiral of if you know if we're not that spiral of if you know if we're not clear on our culture and we're not clear on our culture and we're not clear on our culture and we're not hiring well then we're not you know we hiring well then we're not you know we hiring well then we're not you know we just go in this vicious cycle of just go in this vicious cycle of just go in this vicious cycle of turnover right and it's hard to get out turnover right and it's hard to get out turnover right and it's hard to get out of that but as soon as you reverse that of that but as soon as you reverse that of that but as soon as you reverse that like you get the positive you get the like you get the positive you get the like you get the positive you get the positive momentum of that um in a positive momentum of that um in a positive momentum of that um in a nutshell there's a there's a way that I nutshell there's a there's a way that I nutshell there's a there's a way that I talk about it I unpack it all but I talk about it I unpack it all but I talk about it I unpack it all but I don't have it memorized to to say it don't have it memorized to to say it don't have it memorized to to say it more succinctly so let's talk about no more succinctly so let's talk about no more succinctly so let's talk about no naming names but examples of bad Church naming names but examples of bad Church naming names but examples of bad Church culture that you've seen just so that we culture that you've seen just so that we culture that you've seen just so that we can read the mail what would some can read the mail what would some can read the mail what would some examples I just I want light bulbs to go examples I just I want light bulbs to go examples I just I want light bulbs to go on for listeners because I know I aspire on for listeners because I know I aspire on for listeners because I know I aspire to have a great culture I also know I to have a great culture I also know I to have a great culture I also know I fall short I also know that I have bad fall short I also know that I have bad fall short I also know that I have bad days so what would some examples of bad days so what would some examples of bad days so what would some examples of bad Church culture or organizational culture Church culture or organizational culture Church culture or organizational culture be yeah yeah I love this question and I be yeah yeah I love this question and I be yeah yeah I love this question and I want to comment just on what you just want to comment just on what you just want to comment just on what you just said there there's no perfect culture so said there there's no perfect culture so said there there's no perfect culture so I also want to take that off the off the I also want to take that off the off the I also want to take that off the off the table is that there's no perfect culture table is that there's no perfect culture table is that there's no perfect culture because we're a bunch of messy humans because we're a bunch of messy humans because we're a bunch of messy humans trying to even on your team you fall trying to even on your team you fall trying to even on your team you fall short sometimes Jenny can you believe it short sometimes Jenny can you believe it short sometimes Jenny can you believe it seriously Carrie there are days where seriously Carrie there are days where seriously Carrie there are days where I'm doing uh uh webinars and talks on I'm doing uh uh webinars and talks on I'm doing uh uh webinars and talks on this and then I'm like I mean we have a this and then I'm like I mean we have a this and then I'm like I mean we have a wonderful team I love love love my team wonderful team I love love love my team wonderful team I love love love my team but we I mean but you have to work at it but we I mean but you have to work at it but we I mean but you have to work at it like it's like this is what we teach and like it's like this is what we teach and like it's like this is what we teach and what we preach and yet it is like there

what we preach and yet it is like there what we preach and yet it is like there are days that I'm like guys I know I are days that I'm like guys I know I are days that I'm like guys I know I just did a talk on that and I've got to just did a talk on that and I've got to just did a talk on that and I've got to actually apologize because I haven't actually apologize because I haven't actually apologize because I haven't done this well I mean it happens all the done this well I mean it happens all the done this well I mean it happens all the time um but here's a couple of things a time um but here's a couple of things a time um but here's a couple of things a couple of specific stories from um couple of specific stories from um couple of specific stories from um churches that I've worked with um there churches that I've worked with um there churches that I've worked with um there was one church that we were working with was one church that we were working with was one church that we were working with that we did a full staff survey and we that we did a full staff survey and we that we did a full staff survey and we got really like confusing data out of got really like confusing data out of got really like confusing data out of the survey it told us that they loved the survey it told us that they loved the survey it told us that they loved their senior leader but they didn't their senior leader but they didn't their senior leader but they didn't trust their executive team H and I was trust their executive team H and I was trust their executive team H and I was kind of cuur I was I mean I wasn't kind kind of cuur I was I mean I wasn't kind kind of cuur I was I mean I wasn't kind of curious I was very curious about it of curious I was very curious about it of curious I was very curious about it because it felt like it was competing because it felt like it was competing because it felt like it was competing with each other and as I dug in more with each other and as I dug in more with each other and as I dug in more because then I did some focus groups and because then I did some focus groups and because then I did some focus groups and some did some additional work to try to some did some additional work to try to some did some additional work to try to get make more sense of that data what I get make more sense of that data what I get make more sense of that data what I found Carrie was here's the thing they found Carrie was here's the thing they found Carrie was here's the thing they highly respected the character of their highly respected the character of their highly respected the character of their executive leaders they highly respected executive leaders they highly respected executive leaders they highly respected the character of their executive leaders the character of their executive leaders the character of their executive leaders they did not trust their decision making they did not trust their decision making they did not trust their decision making they didn't trust their competency and they didn't trust their competency and they didn't trust their competency and so there's something that I found that so there's something that I found that so there's something that I found that um ultimately sabotages a culture is um ultimately sabotages a culture is um ultimately sabotages a culture is they had High High character leaders and they had High High character leaders and they had High High character leaders and we'd always prefer that over anything we'd always prefer that over anything we'd always prefer that over anything else of course right so they had high else of course right so they had high else of course right so they had high leaders of High High character but those leaders of High High character but those leaders of High High character but those leaders were lacked some comp Y in leaders were lacked some comp Y in leaders were lacked some comp Y in decision making organizational Clarity decision making organizational Clarity decision making organizational Clarity um uh uh they were maybe a little slow

um uh uh they were maybe a little slow um uh uh they were maybe a little slow sometimes to make changes that were sometimes to make changes that were sometimes to make changes that were necessary like and so High character necessary like and so High character necessary like and so High character High relational but they weren't High relational but they weren't High relational but they weren't executing on a competency level and that executing on a competency level and that executing on a competency level and that was starting to really weigh their was starting to really weigh their was starting to really weigh their culture so that was a one that will culture so that was a one that will culture so that was a one that will often surprise especially in Ministry often surprise especially in Ministry often surprise especially in Ministry can can I interject for a second I want can can I interject for a second I want can can I interject for a second I want you to keep going but aren't those you to keep going but aren't those you to keep going but aren't those always the people who are hardest to always the people who are hardest to always the people who are hardest to fire too because they're the Saints fire too because they're the Saints fire too because they're the Saints they're wonderful they've been here for they're wonderful they've been here for they're wonderful they've been here for 20 years they're completely they're oh 20 years they're completely they're oh 20 years they're completely they're oh and so we can't get rid of them because and so we can't get rid of them because and so we can't get rid of them because they're wonderful human beings yeah and they're wonderful human beings yeah and they're wonderful human beings yeah and sadly the rest of the team is going why sadly the rest of the team is going why sadly the rest of the team is going why are we still why are we still doing this are we still why are we still doing this are we still why are we still doing this why are we still you know be and again why are we still you know be and again why are we still you know be and again but they feel conflicted because they're but they feel conflicted because they're but they feel conflicted because they're wonderful people but the longer they've wonderful people but the longer they've wonderful people but the longer they've let they let those issues go the more it let they let those issues go the more it let they let those issues go the more it began to erode culture and it eroded began to erode culture and it eroded began to erode culture and it eroded trust because trust was the number one trust because trust was the number one trust because trust was the number one issue that was showing up in that issue that was showing up in that issue that was showing up in that organizational survey and I was so like organizational survey and I was so like organizational survey and I was so like puzzled by it because they would tell me puzzled by it because they would tell me puzzled by it because they would tell me they trusted their senior leaders but they trusted their senior leaders but they trusted their senior leaders but then trust was still the key issue and then trust was still the key issue and then trust was still the key issue and that's where I began to parse it out was that's where I began to parse it out was that's where I began to parse it out was that they trusted them as humans their that they trusted them as humans their that they trusted them as humans their character and their integrity they character and their integrity they character and their integrity they didn't trust their competency to make didn't trust their competency to make didn't trust their competency to make the right decisions to make the right the right decisions to make the right the right decisions to make the right decisions at the right time Etc so decisions at the right time Etc so decisions at the right time Etc so fascinating one but I see that a lot fascinating one but I see that a lot fascinating one but I see that a lot play out okay what other scenarios do play out okay what other scenarios do play out okay what other scenarios do you see play out um another scenario you see play out um another scenario you see play out um another scenario that I see pretty often is uh that I see pretty often is uh that I see pretty often is uh organizations that are um particularly

organizations that are um particularly organizations that are um particularly Ministry that are very siloed so this Ministry that are very siloed so this Ministry that are very siloed so this will often happen in churches that have will often happen in churches that have will often happen in churches that have been around a good while lots of Legacy been around a good while lots of Legacy been around a good while lots of Legacy lots of History lots of complexity to lots of History lots of complexity to lots of History lots of complexity to their Ministry and every Ministry team their Ministry and every Ministry team their Ministry and every Ministry team just does their thing and they kind of just does their thing and they kind of just does their thing and they kind of run in their silos but 's no run in their silos but 's no run in their silos but 's no collaboration it's kind of every person collaboration it's kind of every person collaboration it's kind of every person for themselves so then there's jockeying for themselves so then there's jockeying for themselves so then there's jockeying over resources and um there's you know over resources and um there's you know over resources and um there's you know again it's that kind of competitive again it's that kind of competitive again it's that kind of competitive territorial thing that only bubbles up territorial thing that only bubbles up territorial thing that only bubbles up when they butt heads on something but it when they butt heads on something but it when they butt heads on something but it becomes like a tension point in the becomes like a tension point in the becomes like a tension point in the organization and organization and organization and um what what you lack there is a um what what you lack there is a um what what you lack there is a collaborative Spirit or collaborative collaborative Spirit or collaborative collaborative Spirit or collaborative nature across the organization they're nature across the organization they're nature across the organization they're not on a shared Mission they're on not on a shared Mission they're on not on a shared Mission they're on mission for their individual departments mission for their individual departments mission for their individual departments or Ministries and eventually that or Ministries and eventually that or Ministries and eventually that catches up with you eventually that's catches up with you eventually that's catches up with you eventually that's going to be become a problem sure um going to be become a problem sure um going to be become a problem sure um there was one organization that I was there was one organization that I was there was one organization that I was working with specifically where that was working with specifically where that was working with specifically where that was very much the case but they were trying very much the case but they were trying very much the case but they were trying to move to multisite well multisite to move to multisite well multisite to move to multisite well multisite brings so much um uh complexity and brings so much um uh complexity and brings so much um uh complexity and requires unity and alignment and requires unity and alignment and requires unity and alignment and collaboration and so it was it was a collaboration and so it was it was a collaboration and so it was it was a tangle to un to unpack all of that and tangle to un to unpack all of that and tangle to un to unpack all of that and help um help lead them forward because help um help lead them forward because help um help lead them forward because they all kind of wanted to do their own they all kind of wanted to do their own they all kind of wanted to do their own thing um so those are a few that come to thing um so those are a few that come to thing um so those are a few that come to mind right off the bat but does that mind right off the bat but does that mind right off the bat but does that spark ideas for you from your spark ideas for you from your spark ideas for you from your perspective oh yeah and I've I've seen perspective oh yeah and I've I've seen perspective oh yeah and I've I've seen two hop two cultures for the leader

two hop two cultures for the leader two hop two cultures for the leader where whatever the leader says everybody where whatever the leader says everybody where whatever the leader says everybody just responds yeah so whenever the just responds yeah so whenever the just responds yeah so whenever the preacher gets the sermon ready is when preacher gets the sermon ready is when preacher gets the sermon ready is when the production team gets the message as the production team gets the message as the production team gets the message as opposed to it was due last week uh we're opposed to it was due last week uh we're opposed to it was due last week uh we're all waiting here or you know everyone all waiting here or you know everyone all waiting here or you know everyone has to be on standby Saturday just in has to be on standby Saturday just in has to be on standby Saturday just in case something happens at the last case something happens at the last case something happens at the last minute or a lack of fun in culture I minute or a lack of fun in culture I minute or a lack of fun in culture I mean cultures can be too fun and too mean cultures can be too fun and too mean cultures can be too fun and too culture one of our values is have fun culture one of our values is have fun culture one of our values is have fun because I can be too serious sometimes because I can be too serious sometimes because I can be too serious sometimes yeah and I hire serious people and we yeah and I hire serious people and we yeah and I hire serious people and we have to remind ourselves to have fun but have to remind ourselves to have fun but have to remind ourselves to have fun but I would always put someone who was fun I would always put someone who was fun I would always put someone who was fun in charge of fun yeah that's good like in charge of fun yeah that's good like in charge of fun yeah that's good like all right we'll do that um let's talk all right we'll do that um let's talk all right we'll do that um let's talk about the peculiar relationship between about the peculiar relationship between about the peculiar relationship between compensation and culture oh so yeah I compensation and culture oh so yeah I compensation and culture oh so yeah I guess a couple of questions under that guess a couple of questions under that guess a couple of questions under that let's start with let's start with let's start with this can you pay people enough that it this can you pay people enough that it this can you pay people enough that it papers over your cultural papers over your cultural papers over your cultural deficiencies no no you can't all right I deficiencies no no you can't all right I deficiencies no no you can't all right I don't I don't think so I'll give you a don't I don't think so I'll give you a don't I don't think so I'll give you a raise I'll give you a raise where you raise I'll give you a raise where you raise I'll give you a raise where you know you're not going to get a better know you're not going to get a better know you're not going to get a better job it sucks here but you're you're job it sucks here but you're you're job it sucks here but you're you're going to get paid really well that going to get paid really well that going to get paid really well that doesn't do it does it I mean it depends doesn't do it does it I mean it depends doesn't do it does it I mean it depends on how handcuffed that individual is to on how handcuffed that individual is to on how handcuffed that individual is to the pay their their risk tolerance for the pay their their risk tolerance for the pay their their risk tolerance for leaving right um so I think that I mean leaving right um so I think that I mean leaving right um so I think that I mean I think that always factors into it but I think that always factors into it but I think that always factors into it but um you know there's a there's an um you know there's a there's an um you know there's a there's an interesting threshold of one of the interesting threshold of one of the interesting threshold of one of the tools that I have in my framework is I

tools that I have in my framework is I tools that I have in my framework is I call it the culture hierarchy of needs call it the culture hierarchy of needs call it the culture hierarchy of needs so kind of based on maso's hierarchy of so kind of based on maso's hierarchy of so kind of based on maso's hierarchy of needs there are just basic needs that we needs there are just basic needs that we needs there are just basic needs that we have that if they are not met it's hard have that if they are not met it's hard have that if they are not met it's hard for us to fully engage as employees and for us to fully engage as employees and for us to fully engage as employees and the the first the first level of the the the first the first level of the the the first the first level of the hierarchy is just basic needs much like hierarchy is just basic needs much like hierarchy is just basic needs much like maso's hierarchy of like food Shel maso's hierarchy of like food Shel maso's hierarchy of like food Shel clothing well in the employment scenario clothing well in the employment scenario clothing well in the employment scenario it's like we need a we need a um a a it's like we need a we need a um a a it's like we need a we need a um a a competitive wage now again most of our competitive wage now again most of our competitive wage now again most of our listeners are ministry list Ministry listeners are ministry list Ministry listeners are ministry list Ministry folks I'm not talking about we're trying folks I'm not talking about we're trying folks I'm not talking about we're trying to compete with corporate because we're to compete with corporate because we're to compete with corporate because we're never going to compete on the same level never going to compete on the same level never going to compete on the same level with corporate but we want to make sure with corporate but we want to make sure with corporate but we want to make sure we are providing a a um a fair wage for we are providing a a um a fair wage for we are providing a a um a fair wage for our employees I've always thought in our employees I've always thought in our employees I've always thought in terms of living wage what's cost of terms of living wage what's cost of terms of living wage what's cost of living how can you live indoors in in in living how can you live indoors in in in living how can you live indoors in in in this environment have groceries and not this environment have groceries and not this environment have groceries and not go to bed sweating about money every go to bed sweating about money every go to bed sweating about money every night that's a living wage you should night that's a living wage you should night that's a living wage you should right that's right and that's what you right that's right and that's what you right that's right and that's what you want to aim for because if they're if want to aim for because if they're if want to aim for because if they're if they're every day they're wondering can they're every day they're wondering can they're every day they're wondering can I you know am I going to put food on the I you know am I going to put food on the I you know am I going to put food on the table well then they can't more deeply table well then they can't more deeply table well then they can't more deeply engage with work right they're they're engage with work right they're they're engage with work right they're they're reduced to basic needs so we want to reduced to basic needs so we want to reduced to basic needs so we want to make sure we are compensating fairly make sure we are compensating fairly make sure we are compensating fairly we're giving cost of living and we're giving cost of living and we're giving cost of living and raises regularly you know like there's raises regularly you know like there's raises regularly you know like there's there's some basic things in there that there's some basic things in there that there's some basic things in there that are really important there comes a point are really important there comes a point are really important there comes a point however where more money will not create however where more money will not create however where more money will not create greater alignment with the culture right greater alignment with the culture right greater alignment with the culture right um I was talking to a leader uh a couple um I was talking to a leader uh a couple um I was talking to a leader uh a couple weeks ago and there was an individual on weeks ago and there was an individual on weeks ago and there was an individual on the team who's just just not super

the team who's just just not super the team who's just just not super content right like you know it's one of content right like you know it's one of content right like you know it's one of those folks that you you really want those folks that you you really want those folks that you you really want them to be on you want them to be them to be on you want them to be them to be on you want them to be winning you want them to be contributing winning you want them to be contributing winning you want them to be contributing but for whatever reason they're not and but for whatever reason they're not and but for whatever reason they're not and this leader was like well do I just need this leader was like well do I just need this leader was like well do I just need to pay more like and I began to look at to pay more like and I began to look at to pay more like and I began to look at I was like no I think the compensation I was like no I think the compensation I was like no I think the compensation is actually appropriate and fair for the is actually appropriate and fair for the is actually appropriate and fair for the role so to throw more money at it I role so to throw more money at it I role so to throw more money at it I don't think is the solution like I think don't think is the solution like I think don't think is the solution like I think you know and we did some good research you know and we did some good research you know and we did some good research on that of like is that person fairly on that of like is that person fairly on that of like is that person fairly comp compensated for the role that comp compensated for the role that comp compensated for the role that they're in um but I you know I said I they're in um but I you know I said I they're in um but I you know I said I think this is actually a culture think this is actually a culture think this is actually a culture alignment question right like are they alignment question right like are they alignment question right like are they really committed to who we are and how really committed to who we are and how really committed to who we are and how we work together to achieve our mission we work together to achieve our mission we work together to achieve our mission right and or do they need Clarity right and or do they need Clarity right and or do they need Clarity somewhere is there something in their um somewhere is there something in their um somewhere is there something in their um job you know roles and responsibilities job you know roles and responsibilities job you know roles and responsibilities that isn't clear and it's causing them that isn't clear and it's causing them that isn't clear and it's causing them to be frustrated and act out right so to be frustrated and act out right so to be frustrated and act out right so you start asking some questions to go you start asking some questions to go you start asking some questions to go what is it that is keeping that what is it that is keeping that what is it that is keeping that individual from more deeply engaging but individual from more deeply engaging but individual from more deeply engaging but rarely I I don't think money is the rarely I I don't think money is the rarely I I don't think money is the issue okay so you can't buy your way out issue okay so you can't buy your way out issue okay so you can't buy your way out of a bad culture but what happens let's of a bad culture but what happens let's of a bad culture but what happens let's flip it because this is probably more flip it because this is probably more flip it because this is probably more commonly the case a lot of churches commonly the case a lot of churches commonly the case a lot of churches might have a great culture Great Hearts might have a great culture Great Hearts might have a great culture Great Hearts wonderful people but they pay very low wonderful people but they pay very low wonderful people but they pay very low right what happens in that situation is right what happens in that situation is right what happens in that situation is your culture enough to keep people your culture enough to keep people your culture enough to keep people there it might be enough to keep people there it might be enough to keep people there it might be enough to keep people there for a time yeah but they may there for a time yeah but they may there for a time yeah but they may eventually just because of back to that

eventually just because of back to that eventually just because of back to that basic needs level of the hierarchy like basic needs level of the hierarchy like basic needs level of the hierarchy like if they are just fighting for if they are just fighting for if they are just fighting for survival it is really hard for them to survival it is really hard for them to survival it is really hard for them to stay committed right like eventually stay committed right like eventually stay committed right like eventually that that want to even though I love that that want to even though I love that that want to even though I love this team I love this these people I this team I love this these people I this team I love this these people I love our mission if I can't provide food love our mission if I can't provide food love our mission if I can't provide food for my family um you know then and I for my family um you know then and I for my family um you know then and I realize that's an extreme response to realize that's an extreme response to realize that's an extreme response to that but but I'll never buy a house I that but but I'll never buy a house I that but but I'll never buy a house I can barely afford rent uh I can't stay can barely afford rent uh I can't stay can barely afford rent uh I can't stay yeah exactly exactly do you I don't know yeah exactly exactly do you I don't know yeah exactly exactly do you I don't know whether your research with the Barna whether your research with the Barna whether your research with the Barna cohort has Unearthed anything like that cohort has Unearthed anything like that cohort has Unearthed anything like that but how important is pay to jenz and but how important is pay to jenz and but how important is pay to jenz and younger younger younger Millennials it is we had have and I Millennials it is we had have and I Millennials it is we had have and I don't have the data right in front of me don't have the data right in front of me don't have the data right in front of me it is not the it is a factor but it is it is not the it is a factor but it is it is not the it is a factor but it is not the primary factor for them I think not the primary factor for them I think not the primary factor for them I think if I'm remembering this right Carrie and if I'm remembering this right Carrie and if I'm remembering this right Carrie and I may have to go back to this but I I may have to go back to this but I I may have to go back to this but I think like one of the pieces of data think like one of the pieces of data think like one of the pieces of data there were five uh five factors that we there were five uh five factors that we there were five uh five factors that we were looking at related to you know were looking at related to you know were looking at related to you know particularly what keeps people engaged particularly what keeps people engaged particularly what keeps people engaged and I think the compensation was very and I think the compensation was very and I think the compensation was very low it was like four or five it was of low it was like four or five it was of low it was like four or five it was of the five factors it was one of the the five factors it was one of the the five factors it was one of the bottom ones um per purpose is more bottom ones um per purpose is more bottom ones um per purpose is more important to them training and important to them training and important to them training and development is more important to them development is more important to them development is more important to them they want a pathway for growth so that's they want a pathway for growth so that's they want a pathway for growth so that's also really interesting uh for younger also really interesting uh for younger also really interesting uh for younger Generations is they want to know how to Generations is they want to know how to Generations is they want to know how to how to continue to grow and develop here how to continue to grow and develop here how to continue to grow and develop here that's another thing that gets us in that's another thing that gets us in that's another thing that gets us in trouble sometimes in Ministry because trouble sometimes in Ministry because trouble sometimes in Ministry because you know what we have one children's

you know what we have one children's you know what we have one children's director um sit in that slot for 20 director um sit in that slot for 20 director um sit in that slot for 20 years right and so you know you have years right and so you know you have years right and so you know you have somebody coming up as the children's somebody coming up as the children's somebody coming up as the children's coordinator and they're coordinator and they're coordinator and they're like you know there's there's not going like you know there's there's not going like you know there's there's not going to be an open seat for 20 years what do to be an open seat for 20 years what do to be an open seat for 20 years what do I do with this and so it's not that we I do with this and so it's not that we I do with this and so it's not that we so the more that we're invested in their so the more that we're invested in their so the more that we're invested in their growth and development even if their growth and development even if their growth and development even if their title isn't radically changing but they title isn't radically changing but they title isn't radically changing but they know that there's a commitment for them know that there's a commitment for them know that there's a commitment for them to grow with the organization so one of to grow with the organization so one of to grow with the organization so one of the things I have often told the the things I have often told the the things I have often told the ministry teams that I've been a part of ministry teams that I've been a part of ministry teams that I've been a part of is that there's only a handful of titles is that there's only a handful of titles is that there's only a handful of titles here you know we're we're a church we here you know we're we're a church we here you know we're we're a church we don't have 20 layers we have three or don't have 20 layers we have three or don't have 20 layers we have three or four layers of hierarchy and so we're four layers of hierarchy and so we're four layers of hierarchy and so we're not going to have a lot of different not going to have a lot of different not going to have a lot of different different titles but the scope of your different titles but the scope of your different titles but the scope of your role will change and grow as we're role will change and grow as we're role will change and grow as we're growing and as you're growing your scope growing and as you're growing your scope growing and as you're growing your scope and responsibilities are going to change and responsibilities are going to change and responsibilities are going to change and so those are the conversations I and so those are the conversations I and so those are the conversations I want to be in as your leader is helping want to be in as your leader is helping want to be in as your leader is helping understand where do you want to grow understand where do you want to grow understand where do you want to grow what's important to you what are some what's important to you what are some what's important to you what are some skills you want to develop and how can skills you want to develop and how can skills you want to develop and how can we help you do that and how can that we help you do that and how can that we help you do that and how can that bring value to the ministry and that bring value to the ministry and that bring value to the ministry and that might not mean a title change but it might not mean a title change but it might not mean a title change but it might mean some responsibility change might mean some responsibility change might mean some responsibility change that might come with some pay that might come with some pay that might come with some pay adjustments along the way but you're adjustments along the way but you're adjustments along the way but you're trying to map out how can I make sure trying to map out how can I make sure trying to map out how can I make sure that they recognize that we're committed that they recognize that we're committed that they recognize that we're committed to their growth and development and to their growth and development and to their growth and development and sometimes that often meant people would sometimes that often meant people would sometimes that often meant people would also we'd develop them out because they also we'd develop them out because they also we'd develop them out because they they'd outgrow us and they'd move on to they'd outgrow us and they'd move on to they'd outgrow us and they'd move on to something else but you know what they something else but you know what they something else but you know what they were so eager to help us replace talent

were so eager to help us replace talent were so eager to help us replace talent because they valued our culture so much because they valued our culture so much because they valued our culture so much right so as much as you don't want right so as much as you don't want right so as much as you don't want everybody to move on and move out um um everybody to move on and move out um um everybody to move on and move out um um when you've built a good culture you've when you've built a good culture you've when you've built a good culture you've invested well in your team even when invested well in your team even when invested well in your team even when they do they are a cheerleader and they do they are a cheerleader and they do they are a cheerleader and you've created a culture where great you've created a culture where great you've created a culture where great people want to be a part of it so I've people want to be a part of it so I've people want to be a part of it so I've read had the privilege of reading I read had the privilege of reading I read had the privilege of reading I think endorsing your book culture think endorsing your book culture think endorsing your book culture matters which has been great uh I'll matters which has been great uh I'll matters which has been great uh I'll tell you a lot of senior leaders are tell you a lot of senior leaders are tell you a lot of senior leaders are very Visionary your book has incredible very Visionary your book has incredible very Visionary your book has incredible detail like a framework step by step Y detail like a framework step by step Y detail like a framework step by step Y and you go through it it's it's it's and you go through it it's it's it's and you go through it it's it's it's it's a feature not a bug it's a feature not a bug it's a feature not a bug I think it's excellent if you want to I think it's excellent if you want to I think it's excellent if you want to know how to build a great culture you know how to build a great culture you know how to build a great culture you got to read the book it's fantastic what got to read the book it's fantastic what got to read the book it's fantastic what would you say to the Visionary leader would you say to the Visionary leader would you say to the Visionary leader who is not much of a detail person who who is not much of a detail person who who is not much of a detail person who wants to have a great culture yes I love wants to have a great culture yes I love wants to have a great culture yes I love that you pointed that out Carrie because that you pointed that out Carrie because that you pointed that out Carrie because it's true like I I wrote the book it's true like I I wrote the book it's true like I I wrote the book recognizing that just like every other recognizing that just like every other recognizing that just like every other critical system in your organization critical system in your organization critical system in your organization your culture needs a system so it's your culture needs a system so it's your culture needs a system so it's essentially your culture operating essentially your culture operating essentially your culture operating system and I'm saying hey you spend a system and I'm saying hey you spend a system and I'm saying hey you spend a ridiculous amount of time on your ridiculous amount of time on your ridiculous amount of time on your mission and vision and you will hire mission and vision and you will hire mission and vision and you will hire people to help you draft that and you'll people to help you draft that and you'll people to help you draft that and you'll spend offsites building it so you spend spend offsites building it so you spend spend offsites building it so you spend time and resources to build your mission time and resources to build your mission time and resources to build your mission and vision you build a strategic plan and vision you build a strategic plan and vision you build a strategic plan every two five years and you again hire every two five years and you again hire every two five years and you again hire a consultant to come in and help you do a consultant to come in and help you do a consultant to come in and help you do all of that but how many of you have a all of that but how many of you have a all of that but how many of you have a culture culture culture plan right and in fact data would tell

plan right and in fact data would tell plan right and in fact data would tell us 90% of leaders believe culture us 90% of leaders believe culture us 90% of leaders believe culture matters but only 25% of them have a plan matters but only 25% of them have a plan matters but only 25% of them have a plan o and so it's like how come we don't o and so it's like how come we don't o and so it's like how come we don't have plans for arguably our greatest have plans for arguably our greatest have plans for arguably our greatest resource the people who are going to resource the people who are going to resource the people who are going to help make that mission happen right like help make that mission happen right like help make that mission happen right like they're whether you like going to work they're whether you like going to work they're whether you like going to work or not whether you're frustrated with or not whether you're frustrated with or not whether you're frustrated with your team or not exactly exactly so to your team or not exactly exactly so to your team or not exactly exactly so to answer your question what I would tell answer your question what I would tell answer your question what I would tell leaders because I get it I I wrote the leaders because I get it I I wrote the leaders because I get it I I wrote the stinking framework and I don't love stinking framework and I don't love stinking framework and I don't love implementing it because I'm a more of a implementing it because I'm a more of a implementing it because I'm a more of a Visionary and like move on to the next Visionary and like move on to the next Visionary and like move on to the next big idea but I did it it was a big idea but I did it it was a big idea but I did it it was a discipline Carrie it was a result of so discipline Carrie it was a result of so discipline Carrie it was a result of so this this has been a book that has been this this has been a book that has been this this has been a book that has been 20 years in the making because when I 20 years in the making because when I 20 years in the making because when I first went on staff at Cross Point on first went on staff at Cross Point on first went on staff at Cross Point on the heels of that corporate those two the heels of that corporate those two the heels of that corporate those two corporate experiences and I got to Cross corporate experiences and I got to Cross corporate experiences and I got to Cross Point and I recognized oh I've got to Point and I recognized oh I've got to Point and I recognized oh I've got to help shape this this experience so help shape this this experience so help shape this this experience so that's when I began experimenting with that's when I began experimenting with that's when I began experimenting with what does it take and what do you do what does it take and what do you do what does it take and what do you do because it's not just the employee fund because it's not just the employee fund because it's not just the employee fund days and the staff perks it's like it's days and the staff perks it's like it's days and the staff perks it's like it's much more than that so over the course much more than that so over the course much more than that so over the course of those 20 years I've built out this of those 20 years I've built out this of those 20 years I've built out this framework so it's rigorous it is it is framework so it's rigorous it is it is framework so it's rigorous it is it is intended to help you actually put a plan intended to help you actually put a plan intended to help you actually put a plan in place that helps invest in and in place that helps invest in and in place that helps invest in and protect your culture answer to your protect your culture answer to your protect your culture answer to your question is that senior leader is likely question is that senior leader is likely question is that senior leader is likely not executing the Strategic plan they not executing the Strategic plan they not executing the Strategic plan they have another leader on their team who is have another leader on their team who is have another leader on their team who is the one who loves the nuts and bolts and the one who loves the nuts and bolts and the one who loves the nuts and bolts and is good at holding people accountable is good at holding people accountable is good at holding people accountable and leading through the day-to-day and leading through the day-to-day and leading through the day-to-day initiatives that make the plan happen initiatives that make the plan happen initiatives that make the plan happen same thing here is that you have to

same thing here is that you have to same thing here is that you have to believe in it as the leader you've got believe in it as the leader you've got believe in it as the leader you've got to believe that it matters you've got to to believe that it matters you've got to to believe that it matters you've got to be committed to it you got to be be committed to it you got to be be committed to it you got to be involved at the right level but you need involved at the right level but you need involved at the right level but you need somebody on your team to actually help somebody on your team to actually help somebody on your team to actually help build out the system and make sure we're build out the system and make sure we're build out the system and make sure we're running the running the game plan and so running the running the game plan and so running the running the game plan and so that would be my encouragement is you that would be my encouragement is you that would be my encouragement is you don't need to you don't need to execute don't need to you don't need to execute don't need to you don't need to execute everything you need to you need to find everything you need to you need to find everything you need to you need to find that it's a priority that it's a key that it's a priority that it's a key that it's a priority that it's a key part of your M Ministry strategy and part of your M Ministry strategy and part of your M Ministry strategy and then you need to find the team members then you need to find the team members then you need to find the team members who can actually help lead through it who can actually help lead through it who can actually help lead through it and everybody breathed a big sigh of and everybody breathed a big sigh of and everybody breathed a big sigh of relief that's good no because you're relief that's good no because you're relief that's good no because you're right you can't delegate culture but you right you can't delegate culture but you right you can't delegate culture but you can delegate the execution of a cultural can delegate the execution of a cultural can delegate the execution of a cultural plan exactly that's right yeah y that's plan exactly that's right yeah y that's plan exactly that's right yeah y that's exactly right and I have had leaders who exactly right and I have had leaders who exactly right and I have had leaders who were like okay can I just give that to were like okay can I just give that to were like okay can I just give that to HR and I'm like HR and I'm like HR and I'm like well yes not exactly right like I need well yes not exactly right like I need well yes not exactly right like I need you to believe in it I need you to cast you to believe in it I need you to cast you to believe in it I need you to cast vision for it I need you to be clear vision for it I need you to be clear vision for it I need you to be clear about what's important to you because about what's important to you because about what's important to you because that definition of color culture has to that definition of color culture has to that definition of color culture has to Cascade from the leader now I've had Cascade from the leader now I've had Cascade from the leader now I've had situ in very large organizations um situ in very large organizations um situ in very large organizations um Willow Creek was one of these in 2021 I Willow Creek was one of these in 2021 I Willow Creek was one of these in 2021 I walked the Willow Creek staff through walked the Willow Creek staff through walked the Willow Creek staff through the whole lead culture framework and we the whole lead culture framework and we the whole lead culture framework and we spent a year working through this plan spent a year working through this plan spent a year working through this plan and you know Dave dummit had been there and you know Dave dummit had been there and you know Dave dummit had been there a year he had a whole lot of things on a year he had a whole lot of things on a year he had a whole lot of things on his plate yes he had a couple things he his plate yes he had a couple things he his plate yes he had a couple things he had a few things going on so he couldn't had a few things going on so he couldn't had a few things going on so he couldn't sit in all of our culture meetings like sit in all of our culture meetings like sit in all of our culture meetings like our we had a culture team that was our we had a culture team that was our we had a culture team that was assembled to do the work but he was he

assembled to do the work but he was he assembled to do the work but he was he was brought into it as needed of like we was brought into it as needed of like we was brought into it as needed of like we needed and because he believed in it he needed and because he believed in it he needed and because he believed in it he endorsed you know me coming in and endorsed you know me coming in and endorsed you know me coming in and working with Tim Stevens who was there working with Tim Stevens who was there working with Tim Stevens who was there at the time and then the rest of the at the time and then the rest of the at the time and then the rest of the team and uh so he he gave it his thumb team and uh so he he gave it his thumb team and uh so he he gave it his thumb his thumbs up it was part of the big his thumbs up it was part of the big his thumbs up it was part of the big strategic Focus that he was doing in strategic Focus that he was doing in strategic Focus that he was doing in helping move the organization forward um helping move the organization forward um helping move the organization forward um and then he was just brought in at the and then he was just brought in at the and then he was just brought in at the right points along the way and so um it right points along the way and so um it right points along the way and so um it you're not absent but you also don't you're not absent but you also don't you're not absent but you also don't have to be in every detail so Switching have to be in every detail so Switching have to be in every detail so Switching gears entirely you've gone to hybrid gears entirely you've gone to hybrid gears entirely you've gone to hybrid publishing with this book which I'm kind publishing with this book which I'm kind publishing with this book which I'm kind of intrigued I mean author Equity I of intrigued I mean author Equity I of intrigued I mean author Equity I think you published with Maxwell who think you published with Maxwell who think you published with Maxwell who just got into publishing what was your just got into publishing what was your just got into publishing what was your experience like going the experience like going the experience like going the non-traditional Publishers route yeah it non-traditional Publishers route yeah it non-traditional Publishers route yeah it honestly it's been a fantastic honestly it's been a fantastic honestly it's been a fantastic experience so I will say um I you know experience so I will say um I you know experience so I will say um I you know obviously John Maxwell has been a obviously John Maxwell has been a obviously John Maxwell has been a massive influence on my journey but um massive influence on my journey but um massive influence on my journey but um the Maxwell publishing team have been the Maxwell publishing team have been the Maxwell publishing team have been phenomenal and just I mean the hybrid phenomenal and just I mean the hybrid phenomenal and just I mean the hybrid publishing publishing publishing Dynamic makes the publisher probably Dynamic makes the publisher probably Dynamic makes the publisher probably typically a little less invested in you typically a little less invested in you typically a little less invested in you because you're investing in yourself because you're investing in yourself because you're investing in yourself more than you know um being given in more than you know um being given in more than you know um being given in advance to to write a book like you are advance to to write a book like you are advance to to write a book like you are in traditional publishing but I will in traditional publishing but I will in traditional publishing but I will say uh just fantastic experience by way say uh just fantastic experience by way say uh just fantastic experience by way of being a part of the Maxwell of being a part of the Maxwell of being a part of the Maxwell publishing team and just being invited

publishing team and just being invited publishing team and just being invited into a lot of opportunities to just um into a lot of opportunities to just um into a lot of opportunities to just um partner with them so that's been amazing partner with them so that's been amazing partner with them so that's been amazing um the actual functional part of um the actual functional part of um the actual functional part of publishing the book you know I think the publishing the book you know I think the publishing the book you know I think the misnomer when you publish in traditional misnomer when you publish in traditional misnomer when you publish in traditional publishing is that the publisher will do publishing is that the publisher will do publishing is that the publisher will do a lot of the work and you know this a lot of the work and you know this a lot of the work and you know this Carrie it's like when you publish a book Carrie it's like when you publish a book Carrie it's like when you publish a book like you still have to own most of the like you still have to own most of the like you still have to own most of the marketing yes the publisher is going to marketing yes the publisher is going to marketing yes the publisher is going to do a few things and yeah but the do a few things and yeah but the do a few things and yeah but the marketing rests on you and my first marketing rests on you and my first marketing rests on you and my first couple of books I did not particularly couple of books I did not particularly couple of books I did not particularly the first clout I did not know like the the first clout I did not know like the the first clout I did not know like the level of of marketing that I needed to level of of marketing that I needed to level of of marketing that I needed to do as the author and and so do as the author and and so do as the author and and so unfortunately I feel like that book unfortunately I feel like that book unfortunately I feel like that book didn't get quite the exposure that it didn't get quite the exposure that it didn't get quite the exposure that it probably should have gotten and um so I probably should have gotten and um so I probably should have gotten and um so I will say going into hybrid publishing will say going into hybrid publishing will say going into hybrid publishing you know it's on you like you know you know it's on you like you know you know it's on you like you know you've got to do all the work but you've got to do all the work but you've got to do all the work but frankly it's not that much different um frankly it's not that much different um frankly it's not that much different um so I'm you you might have a more so I'm you you might have a more so I'm you you might have a more specific question in there but frankly specific question in there but frankly specific question in there but frankly it's been a great experience and I it's been a great experience and I it's been a great experience and I retain the ownership so that I can retain the ownership so that I can retain the ownership so that I can actually you know create courses and actually you know create courses and actually you know create courses and things with the book material that's things with the book material that's things with the book material that's really critical to what I'm doing with really critical to what I'm doing with really critical to what I'm doing with this book no it's just a a curiosity for this book no it's just a a curiosity for this book no it's just a a curiosity for me I'm definitely uh pursuing that route me I'm definitely uh pursuing that route me I'm definitely uh pursuing that route for my next couple of projects and for my next couple of projects and for my next couple of projects and investigating it I would say not investigating it I would say not investigating it I would say not necessarily pursuing it but investing it necessarily pursuing it but investing it necessarily pursuing it but investing it I mean between author's equity and uh I mean between author's equity and uh I mean between author's equity and uh Maxwell's hybrid publishing setup that Maxwell's hybrid publishing setup that Maxwell's hybrid publishing setup that they have those are just a couple of they have those are just a couple of they have those are just a couple of names that I've had a look at I think

names that I've had a look at I think names that I've had a look at I think there's something there there's something there there's something there and I think you know before it was and I think you know before it was and I think you know before it was either you go with a major publisher or either you go with a major publisher or either you go with a major publisher or you self-publish and nobody ever sees you self-publish and nobody ever sees you self-publish and nobody ever sees your book or perhaps it becomes a viral your book or perhaps it becomes a viral your book or perhaps it becomes a viral hit and I think there's a lot of a hit and I think there's a lot of a hit and I think there's a lot of a promise for hybrid publishing so yeah I promise for hybrid publishing so yeah I promise for hybrid publishing so yeah I think it I I appreciate the different think it I I appreciate the different think it I I appreciate the different solutions that they're coming up with in solutions that they're coming up with in solutions that they're coming up with in and I think the biggest thing like and I think the biggest thing like and I think the biggest thing like you're doing is just the education of you're doing is just the education of you're doing is just the education of okay what is what are the nuances what okay what is what are the nuances what okay what is what are the nuances what are the difference what does this mean are the difference what does this mean are the difference what does this mean for me what do I want to do what do I for me what do I want to do what do I for me what do I want to do what do I not want to do I wanted to do hybrid not want to do I wanted to do hybrid not want to do I wanted to do hybrid because I did still want the traditional because I did still want the traditional because I did still want the traditional distribution distribution distribution opportunities and um and I wanted opportunities and um and I wanted opportunities and um and I wanted somebody to guide me really hold my hand somebody to guide me really hold my hand somebody to guide me really hold my hand through the entire process and that's through the entire process and that's through the entire process and that's what my experience has been with Maxwell what my experience has been with Maxwell what my experience has been with Maxwell in the in my hybrid deal is that I have in the in my hybrid deal is that I have in the in my hybrid deal is that I have a team that is holding my hand through a team that is holding my hand through a team that is holding my hand through the entire process from right the Edits the entire process from right the Edits the entire process from right the Edits edits the you know um it you're not just edits the you know um it you're not just edits the you know um it you're not just kind of you get the professionalism of a kind of you get the professionalism of a kind of you get the professionalism of a of a traditionally published book um of a traditionally published book um of a traditionally published book um which is what I needed because I was which is what I needed because I was which is what I needed because I was like I need that expertise I need I need like I need that expertise I need I need like I need that expertise I need I need people who know how to produce it people who know how to produce it people who know how to produce it correctly yes and you want to be really correctly yes and you want to be really correctly yes and you want to be really happy with the final product you hold in happy with the final product you hold in happy with the final product you hold in your hands not feeling like someone your hands not feeling like someone your hands not feeling like someone printed it off in their garage or at printed it off in their garage or at printed it off in their garage or at Kingo yeah that's right all right Jenny Kingo yeah that's right all right Jenny Kingo yeah that's right all right Jenny this has been fascinating the new book this has been fascinating the new book this has been fascinating the new book is called culture matters it's available is called culture matters it's available is called culture matters it's available pretty much everywhere right that's

pretty much everywhere right that's pretty much everywhere right that's right that's right yeah culture matters right that's right yeah culture matters right that's right yeah culture matters um a framework for helping your team um a framework for helping your team um a framework for helping your team grow Thrive and be unstoppable and uh grow Thrive and be unstoppable and uh grow Thrive and be unstoppable and uh you can go to culture matters book.com you can go to culture matters book.com you can go to culture matters book.com and all the all the information is there and all the all the information is there and all the all the information is there it can link you over to all kinds of it can link you over to all kinds of it can link you over to all kinds of resources and opportunities to connect resources and opportunities to connect resources and opportunities to connect well Jenny if people want to find you well Jenny if people want to find you well Jenny if people want to find you online where you active where can we online where you active where can we online where you active where can we follow your travel follow your travel follow your travel troubles Instagram if you follow Jenny troubles Instagram if you follow Jenny troubles Instagram if you follow Jenny you know what I'm talking about ex you know what I'm talking about ex you know what I'm talking about ex that's exactly right it's become a story that's exactly right it's become a story that's exactly right it's become a story in itself um I'm at Jenny Katherine Jen in itself um I'm at Jenny Katherine Jen in itself um I'm at Jenny Katherine Jen and i c a t r o n I'm on all the social and i c a t r o n I'm on all the social and i c a t r o n I'm on all the social media at that and then um Jenny media at that and then um Jenny media at that and then um Jenny catan.com is also a great place to go catan.com is also a great place to go catan.com is also a great place to go and and connect further awesome Jenny and and connect further awesome Jenny and and connect further awesome Jenny thanks for all you do for leaders and thanks for all you do for leaders and thanks for all you do for leaders and for me really appreciate you thanks so for me really appreciate you thanks so for me really appreciate you thanks so much Carrie