Preaching While Having Sex Outside Marriage: Carl Lentz on the Pressure of Church Growth

man. [clears throat] Um, and I have so man. [clears throat] Um, and I have so much reverence for it. And it's fair for much reverence for it. And it's fair for much reverence for it. And it's fair for a critic to go, "Really? Did you?" Cool. a critic to go, "Really? Did you?" Cool. a critic to go, "Really? Did you?" Cool. You can judge me all you want. I'm You can judge me all you want. I'm You can judge me all you want. I'm telling you that I counted it a high telling you that I counted it a high telling you that I counted it a high privilege to lead people in that privilege to lead people in that privilege to lead people in that platform. Hi, Reverend. So, to violate platform. Hi, Reverend. So, to violate platform. Hi, Reverend. So, to violate that in private and not handle it that in private and not handle it that in private and not handle it correctly correctly correctly in any way is horrible for my soul. in any way is horrible for my soul. in any way is horrible for my soul. >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff Leadership Podcast. Man, I'm so glad Leadership Podcast. Man, I'm so glad Leadership Podcast. Man, I'm so glad you've joined us. And uh we're in for a you've joined us. And uh we're in for a you've joined us. And uh we're in for a conversation today. I sit down for a conversation today. I sit down for a conversation today. I sit down for a couple of hours with Carl Lent. couple of hours with Carl Lent. couple of hours with Carl Lent. And we talk about it. We talk about And we talk about it. We talk about And we talk about it. We talk about everything. Absolutely everything. everything. Absolutely everything. everything. Absolutely everything. [music] And I have one request today and [music] And I have one request today and [music] And I have one request today and that is that you listen to the entire that is that you listen to the entire that is that you listen to the entire conversation before [music] you drop a conversation before [music] you drop a conversation before [music] you drop a comment. Um Carl has talked a lot about comment. Um Carl has talked a lot about comment. Um Carl has talked a lot about the journey to Hell Song, his fall, his the journey to Hell Song, his fall, his the journey to Hell Song, his fall, his moral failure. moral failure. moral failure. um the journey back over the last few um the journey back over the last few um the journey back over the last few years through his podcast, Lights On, years through his podcast, Lights On, years through his podcast, Lights On, many other podcasts [music] including many other podcasts [music] including many other podcasts [music] including Mel Robbins and and others. And then we Mel Robbins and and others. And then we Mel Robbins and and others. And then we just sat down just sat down just sat down and I kept thinking the conversation was and I kept thinking the conversation was and I kept thinking the conversation was over and it kept going and we've got over and it kept going and we've got over and it kept going and we've got kind of a false ending that and then we kind of a false ending that and then we kind of a false ending that and then we talked some more and I want you to hear talked some more and I want you to hear talked some more and I want you to hear that.

that. that. So, um, So, um, So, um, here's my unedited conversation here's my unedited conversation here's my unedited conversation with Carl Lent. And please give it a with Carl Lent. And please give it a with Carl Lent. And please give it a full listen before you make up your full listen before you make up your full listen before you make up your mind. Carl, I'm so glad to sit down with mind. Carl, I'm so glad to sit down with mind. Carl, I'm so glad to sit down with you. Welcome. you. Welcome. you. Welcome. >> It's an absolute privilege. I I'm >> It's an absolute privilege. I I'm >> It's an absolute privilege. I I'm grateful for all you do and who you are. grateful for all you do and who you are. grateful for all you do and who you are. I've been listening to you for a long I've been listening to you for a long I've been listening to you for a long time, all the way back when in in New time, all the way back when in in New time, all the way back when in in New York. And uh it's just it's really cool York. And uh it's just it's really cool York. And uh it's just it's really cool to meet you. that, you know, that blows to meet you. that, you know, that blows to meet you. that, you know, that blows me away. As a guy who works out of his me away. As a guy who works out of his me away. As a guy who works out of his basement, you find these things out basement, you find these things out basement, you find these things out years later. years later. years later. >> I always found you to be so uh >> I always found you to be so uh >> I always found you to be so uh reasonable and sound and and smart in reasonable and sound and and smart in reasonable and sound and and smart in the angles you bring. I just don't have. the angles you bring. I just don't have. the angles you bring. I just don't have. So, I just I've loved it. And so, we So, I just I've loved it. And so, we So, I just I've loved it. And so, we connected. It's an honor to do it. connected. It's an honor to do it. connected. It's an honor to do it. >> Really delighted to be with you. And I >> Really delighted to be with you. And I >> Really delighted to be with you. And I want to go way back. want to go way back. want to go way back. >> When did you first feel a call to >> When did you first feel a call to >> When did you first feel a call to ministry? like tell us a little bit ministry? like tell us a little bit ministry? like tell us a little bit about your childhood and you know about your childhood and you know about your childhood and you know because most of our most of our stuff because most of our most of our stuff because most of our most of our stuff starts as kids. Everybody wants to pick starts as kids. Everybody wants to pick starts as kids. Everybody wants to pick up the story I think in New York. up the story I think in New York. up the story I think in New York. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'd like to go back a bit. >> I'd like to go back a bit. >> I'd like to go back a bit. >> My dad is my hero and to this day and >> My dad is my hero and to this day and >> My dad is my hero and to this day and one of my first core memories is him one of my first core memories is him one of my first core memories is him taking me to um a juvenile detention taking me to um a juvenile detention taking me to um a juvenile detention center and I think it was in Chesapeake, center and I think it was in Chesapeake, center and I think it was in Chesapeake, Virginia. Yeah.

Virginia. Yeah. Virginia. Yeah. >> And he would bring his guitar and he >> And he would bring his guitar and he >> And he would bring his guitar and he would preach prisoners and I would sit would preach prisoners and I would sit would preach prisoners and I would sit and watch. And it's interesting that and watch. And it's interesting that and watch. And it's interesting that that's like a core template memory that's like a core template memory that's like a core template memory because that's just what I thought every because that's just what I thought every because that's just what I thought every Christian did. And later look back like, Christian did. And later look back like, Christian did. And later look back like, oh, people don't do that. oh, people don't do that. oh, people don't do that. >> Was he a pastor? >> Was he a pastor? >> Was he a pastor? >> Uh, my dad was. Yeah. For for a time in >> Uh, my dad was. Yeah. For for a time in >> Uh, my dad was. Yeah. For for a time in in Williamsburg, Virginia. in Williamsburg, Virginia. in Williamsburg, Virginia. >> And so, uh, growing up, um, just had a >> And so, uh, growing up, um, just had a >> And so, uh, growing up, um, just had a really beautiful family. Uh, challenges really beautiful family. Uh, challenges really beautiful family. Uh, challenges like every family, but my mom and dad like every family, but my mom and dad like every family, but my mom and dad >> loved us, loved Jesus, taught us, um, >> loved us, loved Jesus, taught us, um, >> loved us, loved Jesus, taught us, um, how to put our faith in in Jesus above how to put our faith in in Jesus above how to put our faith in in Jesus above people, above church, all that. So, we people, above church, all that. So, we people, above church, all that. So, we had this really beautiful foundation. had this really beautiful foundation. had this really beautiful foundation. And I did my own thing in high school, And I did my own thing in high school, And I did my own thing in high school, did my own thing in college, and did my own thing in college, and did my own thing in college, and collided with Jesus at 19 years old in collided with Jesus at 19 years old in collided with Jesus at 19 years old in Virginia Beach, Virginia, a pastor named Virginia Beach, Virginia, a pastor named Virginia Beach, Virginia, a pastor named Steve Kelly. Steve Kelly. Steve Kelly. >> Oh yeah, I know. >> Oh yeah, I know. >> Oh yeah, I know. >> Just my life began to change from that >> Just my life began to change from that >> Just my life began to change from that day. And I don't when people say, "Did day. And I don't when people say, "Did day. And I don't when people say, "Did you ever feel a call?" I think I hold you ever feel a call?" I think I hold you ever feel a call?" I think I hold that differently in that that differently in that that differently in that >> I I've always just followed where I feel >> I I've always just followed where I feel >> I I've always just followed where I feel like God's opened doors. and I was like God's opened doors. and I was like God's opened doors. and I was sitting there. So, I gotten saved. And I sitting there. So, I gotten saved. And I sitting there. So, I gotten saved. And I just had the the immediate logic of if just had the the immediate logic of if just had the the immediate logic of if if I can't drink and have fun, nobody if I can't drink and have fun, nobody if I can't drink and have fun, nobody will. Everyone's coming to church. And will. Everyone's coming to church. And will. Everyone's coming to church. And I'm not sure it was the best motivation, I'm not sure it was the best motivation, I'm not sure it was the best motivation, but man, did it work. And I just started but man, did it work. And I just started but man, did it work. And I just started to, you know, invite people and, you to, you know, invite people and, you to, you know, invite people and, you know, over time at Wave Church in know, over time at Wave Church in know, over time at Wave Church in Virginia Beach, I just I just could see Virginia Beach, I just I just could see Virginia Beach, I just I just could see that maybe maybe there's something to me that maybe maybe there's something to me that maybe maybe there's something to me explaining this because it seems like explaining this because it seems like explaining this because it seems like people understand it. And I'm sitting in people understand it. And I'm sitting in people understand it. And I'm sitting in church and I got about two rows of church and I got about two rows of church and I got about two rows of friends with me. And I remember friends with me. And I remember friends with me. And I remember thinking, I I love Steve and I love this thinking, I I love Steve and I love this thinking, I I love Steve and I love this church, but they're going to need church, but they're going to need church, but they're going to need somebody to corral this type of person.

somebody to corral this type of person. somebody to corral this type of person. I wonder who God will use. I wonder who God will use. I wonder who God will use. And I thought, And I thought, And I thought, maybe maybe that's what I should do. maybe maybe that's what I should do. maybe maybe that's what I should do. Maybe I should be the answer to some of Maybe I should be the answer to some of Maybe I should be the answer to some of these questions I have. And from that these questions I have. And from that these questions I have. And from that day, I just started to lean into that. day, I just started to lean into that. day, I just started to lean into that. And then wanted to go to Bible college. And then wanted to go to Bible college. And then wanted to go to Bible college. So I went to church on the way in Vanis, So I went to church on the way in Vanis, So I went to church on the way in Vanis, California, Jack Hayford's California, Jack Hayford's California, Jack Hayford's >> Theological Seminary at the time and >> Theological Seminary at the time and >> Theological Seminary at the time and left there to go to Ilsong College in left there to go to Ilsong College in left there to go to Ilsong College in Australia. And Australia. And Australia. And >> there it was just an real natural flow >> there it was just an real natural flow >> there it was just an real natural flow of I love this church. I love Brian and of I love this church. I love Brian and of I love this church. I love Brian and Bobby. I love the message. It makes Bobby. I love the message. It makes Bobby. I love the message. It makes sense to me and and reaching people and sense to me and and reaching people and sense to me and and reaching people and let me just see where this goes. And two let me just see where this goes. And two let me just see where this goes. And two years leads to three and then I work years leads to three and then I work years leads to three and then I work with Brian, become an intern and go back with Brian, become an intern and go back with Brian, become an intern and go back to Virginia Beach. And uh Steve Kelly to Virginia Beach. And uh Steve Kelly to Virginia Beach. And uh Steve Kelly said, "I want you to work here." and said, "I want you to work here." and said, "I want you to work here." and Laura and I went back and we were intern Laura and I went back and we were intern Laura and I went back and we were intern youth pastors for our ministry start, youth pastors for our ministry start, youth pastors for our ministry start, you know, one baby. Um, no clue about you know, one baby. Um, no clue about you know, one baby. Um, no clue about what was ahead and just loved being a what was ahead and just loved being a what was ahead and just loved being a part of this. Dang. And we took over a part of this. Dang. And we took over a part of this. Dang. And we took over a young adult ministry and and it grew and young adult ministry and and it grew and young adult ministry and and it grew and it God blessed it. And uh, and there it God blessed it. And uh, and there it God blessed it. And uh, and there came a day where um, you know, I met came a day where um, you know, I met came a day where um, you know, I met with Joel Houston in New York. He was with Joel Houston in New York. He was with Joel Houston in New York. He was doing something there and he said, "My doing something there and he said, "My doing something there and he said, "My dad wants to do something in New York."

dad wants to do something in New York." dad wants to do something in New York." Um, and I think we should do it. I'm Um, and I think we should do it. I'm Um, and I think we should do it. I'm like, that's a ridiculous idea. like, that's a ridiculous idea. like, that's a ridiculous idea. >> And you were in Virginia at the time. >> And you were in Virginia at the time. >> And you were in Virginia at the time. >> I was in Virginia and uh and came back, >> I was in Virginia and uh and came back, >> I was in Virginia and uh and came back, talked to Laura, and yeah, in a couple, talked to Laura, and yeah, in a couple, talked to Laura, and yeah, in a couple, you know, not too long after that, we we you know, not too long after that, we we you know, not too long after that, we we left Virginia Beach for New York City. left Virginia Beach for New York City. left Virginia Beach for New York City. And we thought this is ridiculous, And we thought this is ridiculous, And we thought this is ridiculous, impossible, and that's our MO impossible, and that's our MO impossible, and that's our MO >> because if it's easy, if it makes sense, >> because if it's easy, if it makes sense, >> because if it's easy, if it makes sense, probably wouldn't wouldn't be what's for probably wouldn't wouldn't be what's for probably wouldn't wouldn't be what's for us. But we were like, this is uh this us. But we were like, this is uh this us. But we were like, this is uh this could be special, so why not? And uh why could be special, so why not? And uh why could be special, so why not? And uh why I I I love pointing to what you do. I I I I love pointing to what you do. I I I I love pointing to what you do. I remember all the research at the time. I remember all the research at the time. I remember all the research at the time. I remember what everybody said about remember what everybody said about remember what everybody said about church planning in New York. I church planning in New York. I church planning in New York. I [laughter] remember going, "Well, that's [laughter] remember going, "Well, that's [laughter] remember going, "Well, that's not going to be our story." not going to be our story." not going to be our story." >> And it was not our story. And >> And it was not our story. And >> And it was not our story. And >> no, it wasn't your story. >> no, it wasn't your story. >> no, it wasn't your story. >> Uh so yeah, that's kind of um I think >> Uh so yeah, that's kind of um I think >> Uh so yeah, that's kind of um I think that the call to me was just to follow that the call to me was just to follow that the call to me was just to follow passionately. It wasn't to ministry. It passionately. It wasn't to ministry. It passionately. It wasn't to ministry. It was just to just to give it give it all. was just to just to give it give it all. was just to just to give it give it all. Give everything and and let God start Give everything and and let God start Give everything and and let God start changing your life. And yeah, changing your life. And yeah, changing your life. And yeah, >> so I want to back up on something you >> so I want to back up on something you >> so I want to back up on something you dropped. You you had two rows of friends dropped. You you had two rows of friends dropped. You you had two rows of friends at Wave Church.

at Wave Church. at Wave Church. >> And did you say something about >> And did you say something about >> And did you say something about carousing? Like if someone's going to be carousing? Like if someone's going to be carousing? Like if someone's going to be drinking, someone's going to be drinking, someone's going to be drinking, someone's going to be corousing. Everybody becomes a legalism corousing. Everybody becomes a legalism corousing. Everybody becomes a legalism expert after two months of salvation. expert after two months of salvation. expert after two months of salvation. It's like, thank God I came on the team It's like, thank God I came on the team It's like, thank God I came on the team because no one's getting it done. So let because no one's getting it done. So let because no one's getting it done. So let me just show everybody what time it is. me just show everybody what time it is. me just show everybody what time it is. I was definitely that guy. And I was definitely that guy. And I was definitely that guy. And >> so what was your lifestyle then? >> so what was your lifestyle then? >> so what was your lifestyle then? >> Uh so I I played basketball in college >> Uh so I I played basketball in college >> Uh so I I played basketball in college and so basketball was my life. and so basketball was my life. and so basketball was my life. everything had to do with you that everything had to do with you that everything had to do with you that culture and uh so I I loved teams, I culture and uh so I I loved teams, I culture and uh so I I loved teams, I loved people, loved people, loved people, >> I just didn't have that anchor that >> I just didn't have that anchor that >> I just didn't have that anchor that Jesus is. And I just found myself in Jesus is. And I just found myself in Jesus is. And I just found myself in college going, college going, college going, >> I I I was at a party and then there were >> I I I was at a party and then there were >> I I I was at a party and then there were some things that were about to transpire some things that were about to transpire some things that were about to transpire and I remember thinking if I participate and I remember thinking if I participate and I remember thinking if I participate in this, I'll be lost forever in this, I'll be lost forever in this, I'll be lost forever >> and I'm lost and I'm not following >> and I'm lost and I'm not following >> and I'm lost and I'm not following Jesus, but I'm not that lost. Jesus, but I'm not that lost. Jesus, but I'm not that lost. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And it began this like serious. >> And it began this like serious. >> And it began this like serious. >> So this is pre-con conversion. >> So this is pre-con conversion. >> So this is pre-con conversion. >> Yeah. And that's what led me to be I >> Yeah. And that's what led me to be I >> Yeah. And that's what led me to be I think I went home for a visit to see my think I went home for a visit to see my think I went home for a visit to see my parents and that's what kind of opened parents and that's what kind of opened parents and that's what kind of opened my heart to go I don't want to keep my heart to go I don't want to keep my heart to go I don't want to keep living the way I'm living and what would living the way I'm living and what would living the way I'm living and what would happen if I really tried this for real happen if I really tried this for real happen if I really tried this for real cuz I had like a that classic Christian cuz I had like a that classic Christian cuz I had like a that classic Christian young Christian relationship of like I young Christian relationship of like I young Christian relationship of like I don't know if I ever made my own choices don't know if I ever made my own choices don't know if I ever made my own choices in that it's just in front of me. It's in that it's just in front of me. It's in that it's just in front of me. It's like if I grew up in a Muslim household, like if I grew up in a Muslim household, like if I grew up in a Muslim household, >> yeah, I probably would have, you know, >> yeah, I probably would have, you know, >> yeah, I probably would have, you know, leaned this way or, you know, it was it leaned this way or, you know, it was it leaned this way or, you know, it was it was um it was inherited to a great was um it was inherited to a great was um it was inherited to a great degree. Still have my own connection.

degree. Still have my own connection. degree. Still have my own connection. But But But >> yeah, that was that was for me um a >> yeah, that was that was for me um a >> yeah, that was that was for me um a moment of real clarity. moment of real clarity. moment of real clarity. >> My lifestyle was to your your question, >> My lifestyle was to your your question, >> My lifestyle was to your your question, my lifestyle was very typical of maybe my lifestyle was very typical of maybe my lifestyle was very typical of maybe what a 1999 young college male would be what a 1999 young college male would be what a 1999 young college male would be living. And it was just not it wasn't living. And it was just not it wasn't living. And it was just not it wasn't for the glory of God. Let's just say for the glory of God. Let's just say for the glory of God. Let's just say that. We'll keep it PG. Yep. Fair that. We'll keep it PG. Yep. Fair that. We'll keep it PG. Yep. Fair enough. And were you inviting friends to enough. And were you inviting friends to enough. And were you inviting friends to church at the time church at the time church at the time >> in college before pre- >> in college before pre- >> in college before pre- >> conversion? Preversion. Post. No. No. >> conversion? Preversion. Post. No. No. >> conversion? Preversion. Post. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> No interest. No. >> No interest. No. >> No interest. No. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Cuz Okay. That that's interesting >> Cuz Okay. That that's interesting >> Cuz Okay. That that's interesting because lifestyle is something that because lifestyle is something that because lifestyle is something that caught up with you in New York, right? caught up with you in New York, right? caught up with you in New York, right? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, where were the seeds of that? That's >> So, where were the seeds of that? That's >> So, where were the seeds of that? That's what I'm trying to get at. what I'm trying to get at. what I'm trying to get at. >> What do you mean lifestyle? >> What do you mean lifestyle? >> What do you mean lifestyle? >> Well, like alcohol, parties, that kind >> Well, like alcohol, parties, that kind >> Well, like alcohol, parties, that kind of stuff. of stuff. of stuff. >> Well, yeah. A lot of that's not true. >> Well, yeah. A lot of that's not true. >> Well, yeah. A lot of that's not true. So, it wasn't it wasn't um And that's a So, it wasn't it wasn't um And that's a So, it wasn't it wasn't um And that's a that's a funny that's a funny segue. Uh that's a funny that's a funny segue. Uh that's a funny that's a funny segue. Uh because it wasn't my lifestyle, I don't because it wasn't my lifestyle, I don't because it wasn't my lifestyle, I don't think that was um something that, you think that was um something that, you think that was um something that, you know, that that killed or hurt me. I know, that that killed or hurt me. I know, that that killed or hurt me. I think it was just me. I think it was my think it was just me. I think it was my think it was just me. I think it was my habits and my core values and the way habits and my core values and the way habits and my core values and the way that I looked at life and the way I that I looked at life and the way I that I looked at life and the way I processed information. My lifestyle processed information. My lifestyle processed information. My lifestyle >> uh really didn't change.

>> uh really didn't change. >> uh really didn't change. >> I've always been in the mix with people >> I've always been in the mix with people >> I've always been in the mix with people who I don't align with. I've always felt who I don't align with. I've always felt who I don't align with. I've always felt compelled to be in rooms that uh people compelled to be in rooms that uh people compelled to be in rooms that uh people don't agree with what I agree with. And don't agree with what I agree with. And don't agree with what I agree with. And it just I've always leaned towards it just I've always leaned towards it just I've always leaned towards people who are outside of the faith people who are outside of the faith people who are outside of the faith because I that's that's what I love because I that's that's what I love because I that's that's what I love about Jesus. Like I want to be a walking about Jesus. Like I want to be a walking about Jesus. Like I want to be a walking bridge. bridge. bridge. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I feel like yeah, obviously there are >> So I feel like yeah, obviously there are >> So I feel like yeah, obviously there are areas that became muddled. Uh but areas that became muddled. Uh but areas that became muddled. Uh but lifestyle-wise I still live the same lifestyle-wise I still live the same lifestyle-wise I still live the same life today life today life today >> and it's one that is open to to people >> and it's one that is open to to people >> and it's one that is open to to people of different walks of faith. Um I'm a of different walks of faith. Um I'm a of different walks of faith. Um I'm a different man though. So different man though. So different man though. So >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> the the things that I the things that I >> the the things that I the things that I >> the the things that I the things that I have in my life now um radically impact have in my life now um radically impact have in my life now um radically impact aspects of my lifestyle, but as a whole, aspects of my lifestyle, but as a whole, aspects of my lifestyle, but as a whole, that wasn't what tripped me up in New that wasn't what tripped me up in New that wasn't what tripped me up in New York. York. York. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> At all. And I wasn't a big partyier. >> At all. And I wasn't a big partyier. >> At all. And I wasn't a big partyier. Wasn't a big drinker at all. Wasn't a big drinker at all. Wasn't a big drinker at all. >> In fact, didn't drink at all until about >> In fact, didn't drink at all until about >> In fact, didn't drink at all until about midway through in New York cuz midway through in New York cuz midway through in New York cuz Australian culture, as you know, is a Australian culture, as you know, is a Australian culture, as you know, is a little bit different. Hillsong Church, little bit different. Hillsong Church, little bit different. Hillsong Church, >> um alcohol is a part of that. You know, >> um alcohol is a part of that. You know, >> um alcohol is a part of that. You know, people love Jesus and they drink. I've people love Jesus and they drink. I've people love Jesus and they drink. I've got no beef with that. got no beef with that. got no beef with that. >> Oh, you go to Europe, it's the same But, >> Oh, you go to Europe, it's the same But, >> Oh, you go to Europe, it's the same But, you know, Laura always grew up around a you know, Laura always grew up around a you know, Laura always grew up around a drinking culture of me. I was coming out drinking culture of me. I was coming out drinking culture of me. I was coming out of some really heavy religious thinking.

of some really heavy religious thinking. of some really heavy religious thinking. And so, I was just I was the guy who And so, I was just I was the guy who And so, I was just I was the guy who didn't drink. I remember Brian one time didn't drink. I remember Brian one time didn't drink. I remember Brian one time told me he's like, "I'm glad you don't told me he's like, "I'm glad you don't told me he's like, "I'm glad you don't drink." You know, it switches it up for drink." You know, it switches it up for drink." You know, it switches it up for some of us. And uh some of us. And uh some of us. And uh >> it uh and then I I started drinking >> it uh and then I I started drinking >> it uh and then I I started drinking lightly, but that was really not a big lightly, but that was really not a big lightly, but that was really not a big thing. towards the end of my hardest thing. towards the end of my hardest thing. towards the end of my hardest season. It was a hallmark of complete season. It was a hallmark of complete season. It was a hallmark of complete disassociation, pain shielding, and it disassociation, pain shielding, and it disassociation, pain shielding, and it just aided and abded. But that wasn't just aided and abded. But that wasn't just aided and abded. But that wasn't like I never had I don't drink now. I like I never had I don't drink now. I like I never had I don't drink now. I haven't had any alcohol in a very very haven't had any alcohol in a very very haven't had any alcohol in a very very long time. Years and years. Uh but that long time. Years and years. Uh but that long time. Years and years. Uh but that wasn't hard to give up. wasn't hard to give up. wasn't hard to give up. >> So it wasn't part of my it was just a >> So it wasn't part of my it was just a >> So it wasn't part of my it was just a symptom of it was at the scene of a lot symptom of it was at the scene of a lot symptom of it was at the scene of a lot of those accidents towards the end. of those accidents towards the end. of those accidents towards the end. >> Yeah. Uh so it was a real a real thing >> Yeah. Uh so it was a real a real thing >> Yeah. Uh so it was a real a real thing but partying and all that that that's but partying and all that that that's but partying and all that that that's not really we didn't live that life that not really we didn't live that life that not really we didn't live that life that >> so when the conversion happened a lot >> so when the conversion happened a lot >> so when the conversion happened a lot changed. changed. changed. >> Yes. Oh yeah. When the conversion >> Yes. Oh yeah. When the conversion >> Yes. Oh yeah. When the conversion happened uh my life was you know about happened uh my life was you know about happened uh my life was you know about church and it was about you know church and it was about you know church and it was about you know learning how to do ministry and then learning how to do ministry and then learning how to do ministry and then reaching people. reaching people. reaching people. >> So but that at in in Virginia Beach >> So but that at in in Virginia Beach >> So but that at in in Virginia Beach drinking and uh that was not part of my drinking and uh that was not part of my drinking and uh that was not part of my life.

life. life. >> So you wanted to reach the people who >> So you wanted to reach the people who >> So you wanted to reach the people who were in that world. were in that world. were in that world. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Brought two rows of them. Yes. >> Brought two rows of them. Yes. >> Brought two rows of them. Yes. >> But you were different. >> But you were different. >> But you were different. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Interesting. Okay. No, thanks for >> Interesting. Okay. No, thanks for >> Interesting. Okay. No, thanks for clarifying and clarify. We'll we'll talk clarifying and clarify. We'll we'll talk clarifying and clarify. We'll we'll talk about that. Like this is this is your about that. Like this is this is your about that. Like this is this is your story. I've listened to story. I've listened to story. I've listened to >> dozens of episodes of your podcast or >> dozens of episodes of your podcast or >> dozens of episodes of your podcast or heard you on other people's podcast and heard you on other people's podcast and heard you on other people's podcast and so I think people are familiar with so I think people are familiar with so I think people are familiar with chunks of the story, but this is a great chunks of the story, but this is a great chunks of the story, but this is a great opportunity to set the record straight opportunity to set the record straight opportunity to set the record straight and clarify. and clarify. and clarify. >> Yeah. And there there are some things, >> Yeah. And there there are some things, >> Yeah. And there there are some things, Carrie, where I didn't uh I just didn't Carrie, where I didn't uh I just didn't Carrie, where I didn't uh I just didn't feel like it was appropriate to qualify feel like it was appropriate to qualify feel like it was appropriate to qualify or to to speak truth to some things or to to speak truth to some things or to to speak truth to some things because what what was true was enough. because what what was true was enough. because what what was true was enough. And I personally don't like it when And I personally don't like it when And I personally don't like it when people are justifying little parts of people are justifying little parts of people are justifying little parts of untruths when you you got the headline untruths when you you got the headline untruths when you you got the headline right. The the headline was uh I I I I right. The the headline was uh I I I I right. The the headline was uh I I I I sinned and I and I lied and I covered it sinned and I and I lied and I covered it sinned and I and I lied and I covered it up and I tried to get through it, you up and I tried to get through it, you up and I tried to get through it, you know, in the worst way possible. That know, in the worst way possible. That know, in the worst way possible. That was true. But some of the other stuff I was true. But some of the other stuff I was true. But some of the other stuff I had to stomach and eat because I felt had to stomach and eat because I felt had to stomach and eat because I felt like the most respectful thing I can do like the most respectful thing I can do like the most respectful thing I can do is let these people lie, accuse, say is let these people lie, accuse, say is let these people lie, accuse, say what they want to say because at the end what they want to say because at the end what they want to say because at the end of the day, if you don't want to be lied of the day, if you don't want to be lied of the day, if you don't want to be lied about, don't put yourself in a position about, don't put yourself in a position about, don't put yourself in a position to be lied about. Don't give people the to be lied about. Don't give people the to be lied about. Don't give people the material.

material. material. >> And uh so I for years uh and this is a >> And uh so I for years uh and this is a >> And uh so I for years uh and this is a season where I am at times when there is season where I am at times when there is season where I am at times when there is an easy natural moment to actually an easy natural moment to actually an easy natural moment to actually that's not true. Um, I I do feel very that's not true. Um, I I do feel very that's not true. Um, I I do feel very confident in my ability to do that now confident in my ability to do that now confident in my ability to do that now because it's not about justifying or because it's not about justifying or because it's not about justifying or making someone think something different making someone think something different making someone think something different about me. I don't care what they think. about me. I don't care what they think. about me. I don't care what they think. I really don't. So, that that used to be I really don't. So, that that used to be I really don't. So, that that used to be my motivation for wanting to qualify or my motivation for wanting to qualify or my motivation for wanting to qualify or be, hey, by the way, those 19 stories be, hey, by the way, those 19 stories be, hey, by the way, those 19 stories 17, not true. Now, it's like I don't 17, not true. Now, it's like I don't 17, not true. Now, it's like I don't care. But if it does come across my bow, care. But if it does come across my bow, care. But if it does come across my bow, I'm like, matter of fact, no, that never I'm like, matter of fact, no, that never I'm like, matter of fact, no, that never happened. And now, cuz I I'm I'm not happened. And now, cuz I I'm I'm not happened. And now, cuz I I'm I'm not here to justify or, here to justify or, here to justify or, >> you know, explain away something. But I >> you know, explain away something. But I >> you know, explain away something. But I will speak truth to something that's will speak truth to something that's will speak truth to something that's that's just not true just to help people that's just not true just to help people that's just not true just to help people understand better. understand better. understand better. >> Carl, one of the things I'm really >> Carl, one of the things I'm really >> Carl, one of the things I'm really interested in in my own life and also interested in in my own life and also interested in in my own life and also I've had the privilege of interviewing I've had the privilege of interviewing I've had the privilege of interviewing like 800 leaders now and counting like 800 leaders now and counting like 800 leaders now and counting >> is seeds. >> is seeds. >> is seeds. >> Seeds that grow up to be things we want >> Seeds that grow up to be things we want >> Seeds that grow up to be things we want and things we don't want. Do you know and things we don't want. Do you know and things we don't want. Do you know what I mean? Like what I mean? Like what I mean? Like >> Bible reading is a pretty good seed to >> Bible reading is a pretty good seed to >> Bible reading is a pretty good seed to plant. You do that daily. It's going to plant. You do that daily. It's going to plant. You do that daily. It's going to turn out. When you look back over your turn out. When you look back over your turn out. When you look back over your life pre-new York, life pre-new York, life pre-new York, >> what were some of the signs or the seeds >> what were some of the signs or the seeds >> what were some of the signs or the seeds that you can now see were planted? Could that you can now see were planted? Could that you can now see were planted? Could be in childhood, could be in college, be in childhood, could be in college, be in childhood, could be in college, could be in the early days of ministry could be in the early days of ministry could be in the early days of ministry that would go on to become fullgrown that would go on to become fullgrown that would go on to become fullgrown weeds if you want to use the metaphor weeds if you want to use the metaphor weeds if you want to use the metaphor that uh infernos of jungles of pain.

that uh infernos of jungles of pain. that uh infernos of jungles of pain. >> Jungles of pain. >> Jungles of pain. >> Jungles of pain. >> The biggest way I could point to would >> The biggest way I could point to would >> The biggest way I could point to would be be be >> early days of truth omission. And I >> early days of truth omission. And I >> early days of truth omission. And I didn't know what I didn't know. But it didn't know what I didn't know. But it didn't know what I didn't know. But it would sound something as simple as like, would sound something as simple as like, would sound something as simple as like, Carl, you doing okay? Carl, you doing okay? Carl, you doing okay? >> Yeah, I'm doing I'm doing great. >> Yeah, I'm doing I'm doing great. >> Yeah, I'm doing I'm doing great. >> Not not untrue. Yeah. >> Not not untrue. Yeah. >> Not not untrue. Yeah. >> Not the full truth. >> Not the full truth. >> Not the full truth. >> That seed of acclimating to that kind of >> That seed of acclimating to that kind of >> That seed of acclimating to that kind of answer became really handy in pastoral answer became really handy in pastoral answer became really handy in pastoral circles because that's what a lot of circles because that's what a lot of circles because that's what a lot of pastors do. pastors do. pastors do. >> Yeah. And what that ends up being is a >> Yeah. And what that ends up being is a >> Yeah. And what that ends up being is a seed that creates a highway of major seed that creates a highway of major seed that creates a highway of major truth omission. You know, there were truth omission. You know, there were truth omission. You know, there were some outright things I did that that some outright things I did that that some outright things I did that that were lies. And then but the majority of were lies. And then but the majority of were lies. And then but the majority of my destructive cycle was not lying in a my destructive cycle was not lying in a my destructive cycle was not lying in a typical way. It was the lie of omission. typical way. It was the lie of omission. typical way. It was the lie of omission. That was my number one. That was my number one. That was my number one. >> Not telling the whole story >> Not telling the whole story >> Not telling the whole story >> or allowing you to think something >> or allowing you to think something >> or allowing you to think something that's true that I know isn't and that's true that I know isn't and that's true that I know isn't and allowing that to ride. That's allowing that to ride. That's allowing that to ride. That's >> what would example be when it was small? >> what would example be when it was small? >> what would example be when it was small? Uh uh well the example of truth of Uh uh well the example of truth of Uh uh well the example of truth of mission is everything is everything okay mission is everything is everything okay mission is everything is everything okay inside? Are you thinking okay? Are your inside? Are you thinking okay? Are your inside? Are you thinking okay? Are your are your habits aligning to are your habits aligning to are your habits aligning to >> who you want to be? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> who you want to be? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> who you want to be? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] For sure. For the Yeah. [clears throat] For sure. For the Yeah. [clears throat] For sure. For the most part it's like if you ask a guy most part it's like if you ask a guy most part it's like if you ask a guy like how are you doing with this? like how are you doing with this? like how are you doing with this? They're like I'm I'm doing good. I'm They're like I'm I'm doing good. I'm They're like I'm I'm doing good. I'm overcoming it. Or you are. What does overcoming it. Or you are. What does overcoming it. Or you are. What does that mean? Like and you learn church that mean? Like and you learn church that mean? Like and you learn church speak, you learn pastor speak. And to me speak, you learn pastor speak. And to me speak, you learn pastor speak. And to me that is a seed I can point out and go that is a seed I can point out and go that is a seed I can point out and go and I'm big on with my kids. Like we are and I'm big on with my kids. Like we are and I'm big on with my kids. Like we are they call me like a semantical jerk they call me like a semantical jerk they call me like a semantical jerk because I'm like see you went outside because I'm like see you went outside because I'm like see you went outside for 2 minutes or three dad two minutes. for 2 minutes or three dad two minutes. for 2 minutes or three dad two minutes. I'm like trust me it it matters down the I'm like trust me it it matters down the I'm like trust me it it matters down the road. Was it two or three and now it's road. Was it two or three and now it's road. Was it two or three and now it's like a supreme value for me because I like a supreme value for me because I like a supreme value for me because I will never ever repeat that life. I will never ever repeat that life. I will never ever repeat that life. I can't do it. It killed me. So that's a can't do it. It killed me. So that's a can't do it. It killed me. So that's a seed that um I know now. It wasn't seed that um I know now. It wasn't seed that um I know now. It wasn't malicious. Honestly, Carrie, it wasn't malicious. Honestly, Carrie, it wasn't malicious. Honestly, Carrie, it wasn't like I'm trying to lie. It's like I like I'm trying to lie. It's like I like I'm trying to lie. It's like I don't know if I can trust you. I don't don't know if I can trust you. I don't don't know if I can trust you. I don't know if you can handle the answer. All know if you can handle the answer. All know if you can handle the answer. All the stuff we tell ourselves. So, some of the stuff we tell ourselves. So, some of the stuff we tell ourselves. So, some of it was fair, but it became a very it was fair, but it became a very it was fair, but it became a very convenient way for me to present enough convenient way for me to present enough convenient way for me to present enough truth for you to get off for you to feel truth for you to get off for you to feel truth for you to get off for you to feel comfortable, but I still leave. And the comfortable, but I still leave. And the comfortable, but I still leave. And the truth I didn't give you is what's truth I didn't give you is what's truth I didn't give you is what's killing me. And that's often my I I killing me. And that's often my I I killing me. And that's often my I I challenge a lot of the Christian leaders challenge a lot of the Christian leaders challenge a lot of the Christian leaders I work with now about their old school I work with now about their old school I work with now about their old school accountability accountability accountability mantra.

mantra. mantra. >> Because you lie to an accountability >> Because you lie to an accountability >> Because you lie to an accountability partner. Accountability is worthless if partner. Accountability is worthless if partner. Accountability is worthless if you're not honest. It's Christian you're not honest. It's Christian you're not honest. It's Christian performance. So, I'm accountable. I'm performance. So, I'm accountable. I'm performance. So, I'm accountable. I'm accountable to my my my 5 a.m., you accountable to my my my 5 a.m., you accountable to my my my 5 a.m., you know, breakfast meeting. Are you cool? know, breakfast meeting. Are you cool? know, breakfast meeting. Are you cool? You show up, you're consistent, but You show up, you're consistent, but You show up, you're consistent, but accountability is worthless if I'm not accountability is worthless if I'm not accountability is worthless if I'm not honest. And a common misnomer when you honest. And a common misnomer when you honest. And a common misnomer when you see a guy like me is, "Oh, those guys, see a guy like me is, "Oh, those guys, see a guy like me is, "Oh, those guys, they got yes men around them. Nobody can they got yes men around them. Nobody can they got yes men around them. Nobody can tell them no." And I'm going, "No, tell them no." And I'm going, "No, tell them no." And I'm going, "No, that's not true." I had amazing people that's not true." I had amazing people that's not true." I had amazing people around me. Amazing. my wife very around me. Amazing. my wife very around me. Amazing. my wife very [snorts] discerning, very sharp. Brian, [snorts] discerning, very sharp. Brian, [snorts] discerning, very sharp. Brian, uh, constantly available to for me to uh, constantly available to for me to uh, constantly available to for me to and we have our I have my differences and we have our I have my differences and we have our I have my differences with with some of the stuff that went on with with some of the stuff that went on with with some of the stuff that went on with he and I, but he wasn't with he and I, but he wasn't with he and I, but he wasn't unavailable. I had access to help. I had unavailable. I had access to help. I had unavailable. I had access to help. I had access I had great friends. So, the access I had great friends. So, the access I had great friends. So, the notion that nobody could tell me notion that nobody could tell me notion that nobody could tell me anything has never been true. anything has never been true. anything has never been true. >> Um, I was always open. I just wasn't >> Um, I was always open. I just wasn't >> Um, I was always open. I just wasn't honest. honest. honest. >> So, how can you speak truth to something >> So, how can you speak truth to something >> So, how can you speak truth to something that you don't know exists? So, Carl, that you don't know exists? So, Carl, that you don't know exists? So, Carl, can people speak truth to you? Yeah, for can people speak truth to you? Yeah, for can people speak truth to you? Yeah, for sure they can. Um, the truth they know.

sure they can. Um, the truth they know. sure they can. Um, the truth they know. But how how are you going to speak truth But how how are you going to speak truth But how how are you going to speak truth to something that I'm hiding? to something that I'm hiding? to something that I'm hiding? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, there's an unfair premise to And >> So, there's an unfair premise to And >> So, there's an unfair premise to And that's a real lowhanging fruit criticism that's a real lowhanging fruit criticism that's a real lowhanging fruit criticism of people from far away. Like, guys like of people from far away. Like, guys like of people from far away. Like, guys like that. What do you mean guys like me? that. What do you mean guys like me? that. What do you mean guys like me? Like, what do you mean? You know, it's Like, what do you mean? You know, it's Like, what do you mean? You know, it's not true. not true. not true. >> Well, often often the loudest critics >> Well, often often the loudest critics >> Well, often often the loudest critics are the people who know you the least. are the people who know you the least. are the people who know you the least. >> Always. Not often, Carrie. I would say >> Always. Not often, Carrie. I would say >> Always. Not often, Carrie. I would say always. always. always. >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the >> This episode is brought to you by the Art of Leadership Live. So, if you're Art of Leadership Live. So, if you're Art of Leadership Live. So, if you're leading a church and you know that leading a church and you know that leading a church and you know that there's more in you and more ahead for there's more in you and more ahead for there's more in you and more ahead for your team, then I want to personally your team, then I want to personally your team, then I want to personally invite you to something very special. invite you to something very special. invite you to something very special. September 21st through 23rd, 2026, I'm September 21st through 23rd, 2026, I'm September 21st through 23rd, 2026, I'm hosting the Art of Leadership Live in hosting the Art of Leadership Live in hosting the Art of Leadership Live in Nashville, Tennessee. Now, this is not a Nashville, Tennessee. Now, this is not a Nashville, Tennessee. Now, this is not a conference where you sit in a chair for conference where you sit in a chair for conference where you sit in a chair for eight hours, take notes, and hope eight hours, take notes, and hope eight hours, take notes, and hope something sticks. This is highly something sticks. This is highly something sticks. This is highly interactive, deeply practical, and interactive, deeply practical, and interactive, deeply practical, and intentionally designed to help you make intentionally designed to help you make intentionally designed to help you make real progress on the leadership real progress on the leadership real progress on the leadership challenges you're facing right now. So, challenges you're facing right now. So, challenges you're facing right now. So, here's what we do at the Art of here's what we do at the Art of here's what we do at the Art of Leadership Live. I combine teaching.

Leadership Live. I combine teaching. Leadership Live. I combine teaching. It's focused teaching, meaningful It's focused teaching, meaningful It's focused teaching, meaningful conversations with other leaders, and conversations with other leaders, and conversations with other leaders, and built-in space to think, process, built-in space to think, process, built-in space to think, process, connect, and actually apply what you're connect, and actually apply what you're connect, and actually apply what you're learning. So, you don't just leave learning. So, you don't just leave learning. So, you don't just leave inspired, you leave with clarity, and inspired, you leave with clarity, and inspired, you leave with clarity, and you leave with next steps. And I'll tell you leave with next steps. And I'll tell you leave with next steps. And I'll tell you this, the leaders who gathered last you this, the leaders who gathered last you this, the leaders who gathered last year absolutely blew me away. The depth year absolutely blew me away. The depth year absolutely blew me away. The depth of the conversations, the honesty in the of the conversations, the honesty in the of the conversations, the honesty in the room, the momentum people left with room, the momentum people left with room, the momentum people left with honestly the tears and the connection. honestly the tears and the connection. honestly the tears and the connection. It was really powerful. Okay, that's It was really powerful. Okay, that's It was really powerful. Okay, that's what makes this event so special. So, I what makes this event so special. So, I what makes this event so special. So, I can't wait to do it again. This time, can't wait to do it again. This time, can't wait to do it again. This time, we're heading to Nashville. Now, one we're heading to Nashville. Now, one we're heading to Nashville. Now, one important note, early bird pricing is important note, early bird pricing is important note, early bird pricing is still available, but only for a limited still available, but only for a limited still available, but only for a limited time. So, if you've been thinking about time. So, if you've been thinking about time. So, if you've been thinking about applying, now's the time. Once early applying, now's the time. Once early applying, now's the time. Once early bird pricing expires, rates go up for bird pricing expires, rates go up for bird pricing expires, rates go up for good. So visit the art of good. So visit the art of good. So visit the art of leadershiplive.com to secure the best leadershiplive.com to secure the best leadershiplive.com to secure the best pricing. Again, that's the art of pricing. Again, that's the art of pricing. Again, that's the art of leadershiplive.com. leadershiplive.com. leadershiplive.com. I can't wait to see you there. I can't wait to see you there. I can't wait to see you there. >> Um, so when you go back like and you >> Um, so when you go back like and you >> Um, so when you go back like and you look at the seeds of the undoing.

look at the seeds of the undoing. look at the seeds of the undoing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Not telling 100% of the truth, 2 minutes >> Not telling 100% of the truth, 2 minutes >> Not telling 100% of the truth, 2 minutes versus 3 minutes, that was part of it. versus 3 minutes, that was part of it. versus 3 minutes, that was part of it. Um, when you think about the founding of Um, when you think about the founding of Um, when you think about the founding of Hillong New York City, just time stamp Hillong New York City, just time stamp Hillong New York City, just time stamp it. What year was that that you and Joel it. What year was that that you and Joel it. What year was that that you and Joel went to? Is that went to? Is that went to? Is that >> Laura is a time guru? >> Laura is a time guru? >> Laura is a time guru? >> I think 2010. >> I think 2010. >> I think 2010. >> 10. Okay. So, 2010 >> 10. Okay. So, 2010 >> 10. Okay. So, 2010 >> you go there. >> you go there. >> you go there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What state was your life in in 2010? >> What state was your life in in 2010? >> What state was your life in in 2010? >> Strong. >> Strong. >> Strong. >> Strong. >> Strong. >> Strong. >> Um, and also, uh, what's a good word for >> Um, and also, uh, what's a good word for >> Um, and also, uh, what's a good word for it? These are great questions. You have it? These are great questions. You have it? These are great questions. You have a future as a podcaster, just so you a future as a podcaster, just so you a future as a podcaster, just so you know. know. know. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Uh uh I think what was my life like >> Uh uh I think what was my life like >> Uh uh I think what was my life like then? It was uh then? It was uh then? It was uh the right heart, the right intent and the right heart, the right intent and the right heart, the right intent and there were some habits that I had never there were some habits that I had never there were some habits that I had never formed and I was getting around to them. formed and I was getting around to them. formed and I was getting around to them. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> And when your life increases that things >> And when your life increases that things >> And when your life increases that things that are in flux, they get destroyed. that are in flux, they get destroyed. that are in flux, they get destroyed. So, there's a lot of people crying out So, there's a lot of people crying out So, there's a lot of people crying out for God for opportunity, for growth, and for God for opportunity, for growth, and for God for opportunity, for growth, and it's like God probably loves you enough it's like God probably loves you enough it's like God probably loves you enough to not do that.

to not do that. to not do that. >> And I I uh there were just some some >> And I I uh there were just some some >> And I I uh there were just some some things I wasn't prepared for, and that's things I wasn't prepared for, and that's things I wasn't prepared for, and that's part of life. part of life. part of life. >> Yeah. Some habits that weren't formed. >> Yeah. Some habits that weren't formed. >> Yeah. Some habits that weren't formed. What habit? What habit? What habit? >> Well, a habit number one of being honest >> Well, a habit number one of being honest >> Well, a habit number one of being honest with somebody else, it's outside of my with somebody else, it's outside of my with somebody else, it's outside of my head. head. head. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> That's a huge that is a habitual routine >> That's a huge that is a habitual routine >> That's a huge that is a habitual routine of my life now that I will I will be of my life now that I will I will be of my life now that I will I will be married to forever. back then it I married to forever. back then it I married to forever. back then it I didn't I didn't think I needed it like didn't I didn't think I needed it like didn't I didn't think I needed it like that. We didn't have the therapy that. We didn't have the therapy that. We didn't have the therapy understanding we do now. understanding we do now. understanding we do now. >> No, it's changed a lot. 16 years and >> No, it's changed a lot. 16 years and >> No, it's changed a lot. 16 years and >> um I didn't I realized now that my life >> um I didn't I realized now that my life >> um I didn't I realized now that my life then there was so much fear. then there was so much fear. then there was so much fear. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> A ton of fear and a ton of I didn't know >> A ton of fear and a ton of I didn't know >> A ton of fear and a ton of I didn't know I wasn't prepared to have a giant I wasn't prepared to have a giant I wasn't prepared to have a giant platform either in that. Like I don't platform either in that. Like I don't platform either in that. Like I don't know what that's like. I don't know what know what that's like. I don't know what know what that's like. I don't know what it's like to have uh millions of people. it's like to have uh millions of people. it's like to have uh millions of people. >> You didn't have a profile wave. >> You didn't have a profile wave. >> You didn't have a profile wave. >> No. No. Not like that. I didn't know >> No. No. Not like that. I didn't know >> No. No. Not like that. I didn't know what it was like to have uh heavy what it was like to have uh heavy what it was like to have uh heavy criticism uh in mass. I didn't know what criticism uh in mass. I didn't know what criticism uh in mass. I didn't know what it was like to what it was going to feel it was like to what it was going to feel it was like to what it was going to feel like to be misunderstood and I didn't so like to be misunderstood and I didn't so like to be misunderstood and I didn't so that starts to warp you. And so one of that starts to warp you. And so one of that starts to warp you. And so one of my first experiences a pastor of as I my first experiences a pastor of as I my first experiences a pastor of as I think about it now at Hillsong New York think about it now at Hillsong New York think about it now at Hillsong New York was just um feeling like this is this was just um feeling like this is this was just um feeling like this is this feels hard like and harsh like what do feels hard like and harsh like what do feels hard like and harsh like what do you like and I didn't understand the the you like and I didn't understand the the you like and I didn't understand the the criticism sometimes that churches like criticism sometimes that churches like criticism sometimes that churches like ours would get and I would harvest that.

ours would get and I would harvest that. ours would get and I would harvest that. I would hold it and it would harvest I would hold it and it would harvest I would hold it and it would harvest rather than now obviously we know hey rather than now obviously we know hey rather than now obviously we know hey this is hurtful. Let's pick it apart. this is hurtful. Let's pick it apart. this is hurtful. Let's pick it apart. Let's talk about what it is. Let's make Let's talk about what it is. Let's make Let's talk about what it is. Let's make sure we're not moving from that sure we're not moving from that sure we're not moving from that criticism. Pick that. I'm just I'm criticism. Pick that. I'm just I'm criticism. Pick that. I'm just I'm taking it all in. Taking it all in. taking it all in. Taking it all in. taking it all in. Taking it all in. Taking it all in. I lost a friend early Taking it all in. I lost a friend early Taking it all in. I lost a friend early there. Uh someone beloved to me died of there. Uh someone beloved to me died of there. Uh someone beloved to me died of a heroin overdose. a heroin overdose. a heroin overdose. >> I never talked that through. I was >> I never talked that through. I was >> I never talked that through. I was preaching. I preached at his funeral and preaching. I preached at his funeral and preaching. I preached at his funeral and preached the next Sunday and just preached the next Sunday and just preached the next Sunday and just freaking went. That's not good. freaking went. That's not good. freaking went. That's not good. >> So, I'm carrying shame, guilt, pain from >> So, I'm carrying shame, guilt, pain from >> So, I'm carrying shame, guilt, pain from this. And then you start to uh this. And then you start to uh this. And then you start to uh accumulate this stuff and it doesn't go accumulate this stuff and it doesn't go accumulate this stuff and it doesn't go well if you have no process for it. I well if you have no process for it. I well if you have no process for it. I had no process for it. Shame, guilt, and had no process for it. Shame, guilt, and had no process for it. Shame, guilt, and pain. Where did that come from? pain. Where did that come from? pain. Where did that come from? >> Uh, it wasn't all accurate, but I felt >> Uh, it wasn't all accurate, but I felt >> Uh, it wasn't all accurate, but I felt shame that I lost my friend that, you shame that I lost my friend that, you shame that I lost my friend that, you know, he was he was newly saved and he know, he was he was newly saved and he know, he was he was newly saved and he rolled with me. He rolled with me rolled with me. He rolled with me rolled with me. He rolled with me everywhere. And there's one night everywhere. And there's one night everywhere. And there's one night >> you didn't do enough. >> you didn't do enough. >> you didn't do enough. >> Yeah. I just it just weighed on me. I >> Yeah. I just it just weighed on me. I >> Yeah. I just it just weighed on me. I needed someone I needed to talk that needed someone I needed to talk that needed someone I needed to talk that through and I just cuz I wanted to quit through and I just cuz I wanted to quit through and I just cuz I wanted to quit because I'm like, if I can't keep my because I'm like, if I can't keep my because I'm like, if I can't keep my best one of my best friends alive, I I best one of my best friends alive, I I best one of my best friends alive, I I don't know if I even want to do this. don't know if I even want to do this. don't know if I even want to do this. Like uh and I'd never been faced with Like uh and I'd never been faced with Like uh and I'd never been faced with death like that. I've never had somebody death like that. I've never had somebody death like that. I've never had somebody I love.

I love. I love. >> Uh, one of my dear friends had to, long >> Uh, one of my dear friends had to, long >> Uh, one of my dear friends had to, long story short, I was flying out to story short, I was flying out to story short, I was flying out to Seattle, preach for my friend Judah. He Seattle, preach for my friend Judah. He Seattle, preach for my friend Judah. He typically would come with me. I couldn't typically would come with me. I couldn't typically would come with me. I couldn't organize it in time. And that was the organize it in time. And that was the organize it in time. And that was the night he overdosed heroin and died. And night he overdosed heroin and died. And night he overdosed heroin and died. And I hadn't had the margin to organize it I hadn't had the margin to organize it I hadn't had the margin to organize it quick enough. And that ate at me for quick enough. And that ate at me for quick enough. And that ate at me for years cuz he was he just I couldn't take years cuz he was he just I couldn't take years cuz he was he just I couldn't take him on the trip. And I know that's not him on the trip. And I know that's not him on the trip. And I know that's not on me now, on me now, on me now, >> but back then I just felt so guilty. >> but back then I just felt so guilty. >> but back then I just felt so guilty. >> Yeah. I felt guilty. And it just put and >> Yeah. I felt guilty. And it just put and >> Yeah. I felt guilty. And it just put and I had I didn't know what grief was cuz I had I didn't know what grief was cuz I had I didn't know what grief was cuz I'm not a griever. I'm a strong leader I'm not a griever. I'm a strong leader I'm not a griever. I'm a strong leader grieving. grieving. grieving. >> Cuz this is what is so helpful, Carl, >> Cuz this is what is so helpful, Carl, >> Cuz this is what is so helpful, Carl, because I think anybody can relate to because I think anybody can relate to because I think anybody can relate to your story at this point. your story at this point. your story at this point. >> Anybody can. It's like, yeah, I felt >> Anybody can. It's like, yeah, I felt >> Anybody can. It's like, yeah, I felt like I should have been there. like I should have been there. like I should have been there. >> And it's not like you're snorting >> And it's not like you're snorting >> And it's not like you're snorting cocaine. cocaine. cocaine. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> You know, and going up to preach. >> You know, and going up to preach. >> You know, and going up to preach. >> Never done cocaine. We often we often >> Never done cocaine. We often we often >> Never done cocaine. We often we often think that it's this big thing that think that it's this big thing that think that it's this big thing that you've been hiding the whole time, but you've been hiding the whole time, but you've been hiding the whole time, but it starts, you know, one of my mentors, it starts, you know, one of my mentors, it starts, you know, one of my mentors, Terry Wardle, who's been on this Terry Wardle, who's been on this Terry Wardle, who's been on this podcast, podcast, podcast, >> told me something 25 years ago that >> told me something 25 years ago that >> told me something 25 years ago that might have saved my life. He just said, might have saved my life. He just said, might have saved my life. He just said, "Ministry is a series of ungrd losses "Ministry is a series of ungrd losses "Ministry is a series of ungrd losses >> and they just pile up >> and they just pile up >> and they just pile up >> and you're not telling the truth and you >> and you're not telling the truth and you >> and you're not telling the truth and you got nobody to talk to got nobody to talk to got nobody to talk to >> and you're like, "No, I got this."

>> and you're like, "No, I got this." >> and you're like, "No, I got this." >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I got this. So, it starts that way. You >> I got this. So, it starts that way. You >> I got this. So, it starts that way. You have the pressure of celebrity. Yep. have the pressure of celebrity. Yep. have the pressure of celebrity. Yep. >> When people ask me, you know, they're >> When people ask me, you know, they're >> When people ask me, you know, they're like, "Uh, oh, yeah, this started pretty like, "Uh, oh, yeah, this started pretty like, "Uh, oh, yeah, this started pretty late for you in your 40s and 50s." I'm late for you in your 40s and 50s." I'm late for you in your 40s and 50s." I'm like, "Yeah." I'm like, "I didn't have like, "Yeah." I'm like, "I didn't have like, "Yeah." I'm like, "I didn't have the character in my 30s." the character in my 30s." the character in my 30s." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And some days I barely have the >> And some days I barely have the >> And some days I barely have the character today. character today. character today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To handle what God has brought my way. >> To handle what God has brought my way. >> To handle what God has brought my way. >> You know, you had the competency. You're >> You know, you had the competency. You're >> You know, you had the competency. You're charismatic. charismatic. charismatic. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, good-looking. You connect with >> You know, good-looking. You connect with >> You know, good-looking. You connect with celebrities and lost people. celebrities and lost people. celebrities and lost people. >> Where was your character at? >> Where was your character at? >> Where was your character at? I think it was at a fragile place I think it was at a fragile place I think it was at a fragile place because I don't I didn't even I don't because I don't I didn't even I don't because I don't I didn't even I don't even hold the word character now like I even hold the word character now like I even hold the word character now like I did then. did then. did then. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Um character for me used to mean >> Um character for me used to mean >> Um character for me used to mean >> intention who I really am inside and >> intention who I really am inside and >> intention who I really am inside and like the character of a man is is is his like the character of a man is is is his like the character of a man is is is his intention intention intention >> and like my character solid and it's >> and like my character solid and it's >> and like my character solid and it's consistent because I know I'm trying to consistent because I know I'm trying to consistent because I know I'm trying to do the right thing. Now I believe you do the right thing. Now I believe you do the right thing. Now I believe you know character is much deeper. It's it's know character is much deeper. It's it's know character is much deeper. It's it's it's evidencebased. It's clear. It's it's evidencebased. It's clear. It's it's evidencebased. It's clear. It's habitual. It's intentioned. It's margin.

habitual. It's intentioned. It's margin. habitual. It's intentioned. It's margin. Like your character is is your backbone. Like your character is is your backbone. Like your character is is your backbone. >> And so I feel like my character um in >> And so I feel like my character um in >> And so I feel like my character um in many ways was a beautiful process, you many ways was a beautiful process, you many ways was a beautiful process, you know, of of of becoming a man of know, of of of becoming a man of know, of of of becoming a man of character. Uh but man, there were some character. Uh but man, there were some character. Uh but man, there were some gaps that um you don't know till you gaps that um you don't know till you gaps that um you don't know till you till you know. till you know. till you know. >> Might be a dead question, but I just >> Might be a dead question, but I just >> Might be a dead question, but I just want to ask it anyway. Looking back 12, want to ask it anyway. Looking back 12, want to ask it anyway. Looking back 12, 13 years ago, who got to judge or speak 13 years ago, who got to judge or speak 13 years ago, who got to judge or speak into your character? And then today, who into your character? And then today, who into your character? And then today, who gets to determine your character? And gets to determine your character? And gets to determine your character? And and underneath the question, I'm and underneath the question, I'm and underneath the question, I'm increasingly convinced I am not a good increasingly convinced I am not a good increasingly convinced I am not a good judge of my own character. Well said. judge of my own character. Well said. judge of my own character. Well said. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But who who was who was speaking into >> But who who was who was speaking into >> But who who was who was speaking into your character your character your character >> at the height of Hillsong, New York? >> at the height of Hillsong, New York? >> at the height of Hillsong, New York? >> My pastors. My best friends. >> My pastors. My best friends. >> My pastors. My best friends. >> So, you had pastors. You had best >> So, you had pastors. You had best >> So, you had pastors. You had best friends. friends. friends. >> Yeah. I mean, Brian Hus has been my >> Yeah. I mean, Brian Hus has been my >> Yeah. I mean, Brian Hus has been my pastor as for my whole adult life. And pastor as for my whole adult life. And pastor as for my whole adult life. And what did those conversations look like? what did those conversations look like? what did those conversations look like? >> Um, challenging. He would he would check >> Um, challenging. He would he would check >> Um, challenging. He would he would check me on some things. I would be open. I me on some things. I would be open. I me on some things. I would be open. I would listen. Um, would listen. Um, would listen. Um, >> and he helped me grow. He really did.

>> and he helped me grow. He really did. >> and he helped me grow. He really did. There were areas of my life that he There were areas of my life that he There were areas of my life that he really helped. really helped. really helped. >> So, it wasn't absent. You were >> So, it wasn't absent. You were >> So, it wasn't absent. You were >> absolutely not. No, but character runs >> absolutely not. No, but character runs >> absolutely not. No, but character runs deep. deep. deep. >> And again, what you don't bring out >> And again, what you don't bring out >> And again, what you don't bring out cannot be healed, cannot be healed, cannot be healed, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> So, most of the time, people are calling >> So, most of the time, people are calling >> So, most of the time, people are calling out stuff that's very clearly obvious to out stuff that's very clearly obvious to out stuff that's very clearly obvious to them. them. them. >> That's not the stuff that's going to >> That's not the stuff that's going to >> That's not the stuff that's going to change your life. It's the stuff that change your life. It's the stuff that change your life. It's the stuff that you bring you bring you bring >> to somebody >> to somebody >> to somebody >> that's the stuff that God can really >> that's the stuff that God can really >> that's the stuff that God can really water and change. So, you know, you can water and change. So, you know, you can water and change. So, you know, you can do all the checks and balances like do all the checks and balances like do all the checks and balances like Carl, you know, watch this and what's Carl, you know, watch this and what's Carl, you know, watch this and what's this? And I had great friends who uh we this? And I had great friends who uh we this? And I had great friends who uh we would we would be very open with each would we would be very open with each would we would be very open with each other and challenge each other. But other and challenge each other. But other and challenge each other. But again, you're only challenging, you again, you're only challenging, you again, you're only challenging, you know, even if I see something in you and know, even if I see something in you and know, even if I see something in you and I think it's this. I think it's this. I think it's this. If it's easier for you to accept that's If it's easier for you to accept that's If it's easier for you to accept that's what it is and you can say it, cool. But what it is and you can say it, cool. But what it is and you can say it, cool. But you know that's not even what it is. So you know that's not even what it is. So you know that's not even what it is. So if someone's like Carl, you you look if someone's like Carl, you you look if someone's like Carl, you you look really busy. really busy. really busy. >> Good call, bro. Thank you. >> Good call, bro. Thank you. >> Good call, bro. Thank you. >> Letting you think that I agree that I'm >> Letting you think that I agree that I'm >> Letting you think that I agree that I'm busy. It's not that I'm busy. It's that busy. It's not that I'm busy. It's that busy. It's not that I'm busy. It's that I'm dying. I don't know how to handle I'm dying. I don't know how to handle I'm dying. I don't know how to handle all this stuff. So what you see is busy.

all this stuff. So what you see is busy. all this stuff. So what you see is busy. I either can reframe and let you know I either can reframe and let you know I either can reframe and let you know what it really is. I I maybe a symptom what it really is. I I maybe a symptom what it really is. I I maybe a symptom is busy. What it really is? I'm lost. is busy. What it really is? I'm lost. is busy. What it really is? I'm lost. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> That has to be given. >> That has to be given. >> That has to be given. >> How did you get lost? >> How did you get lost? >> How did you get lost? I don't think I was lost. I I was trying I don't think I was lost. I I was trying I don't think I was lost. I I was trying to say that that's kind of to say that that's kind of to say that that's kind of >> No, go ahead. Reframe. >> No, go ahead. Reframe. >> No, go ahead. Reframe. >> I I think >> I I think >> I I think I I I was in a beautiful tornado of change and was in a beautiful tornado of change and was in a beautiful tornado of change and even without all the stuff underneath even without all the stuff underneath even without all the stuff underneath the current for me and Laura, uh I was the current for me and Laura, uh I was the current for me and Laura, uh I was having some shift shifting in passion having some shift shifting in passion having some shift shifting in passion and understanding. I got to a point and understanding. I got to a point and understanding. I got to a point leading that leading hillong New York leading that leading hillong New York leading that leading hillong New York City where I started to go, I don't City where I started to go, I don't City where I started to go, I don't know, man. I don't know if this is my know, man. I don't know if this is my know, man. I don't know if this is my future. I don't know if I even I don't future. I don't know if I even I don't future. I don't know if I even I don't know if the model of church is what and know if the model of church is what and know if the model of church is what and it wasn't a shot with the church I was it wasn't a shot with the church I was it wasn't a shot with the church I was leading. I was like I I we're we're leading. I was like I I we're we're leading. I was like I I we're we're leading something incredible and I love leading something incredible and I love leading something incredible and I love it and I don't know if this is what the it and I don't know if this is what the it and I don't know if this is what the future's going to look like for the future's going to look like for the future's going to look like for the world. I don't know if this is what's world. I don't know if this is what's world. I don't know if this is what's going to reach people the best but it going to reach people the best but it going to reach people the best but it felt like you were on a train that was felt like you were on a train that was felt like you were on a train that was impossible to stop. So, I have this impossible to stop. So, I have this impossible to stop. So, I have this churning inside of me. I was talking churning inside of me. I was talking churning inside of me. I was talking with Laura and we had a couple check-ins with Laura and we had a couple check-ins with Laura and we had a couple check-ins and had a big meeting with Brian one and had a big meeting with Brian one and had a big meeting with Brian one time where I was like, I don't I don't time where I was like, I don't I don't time where I was like, I don't I don't know how I'm feeling. Like, I don't know know how I'm feeling. Like, I don't know know how I'm feeling. Like, I don't know what I want to do, you know, and so you what I want to do, you know, and so you what I want to do, you know, and so you have that contention and and at that have that contention and and at that have that contention and and at that age, you I'm turning, you know, my late age, you I'm turning, you know, my late age, you I'm turning, you know, my late 30s, 40s, that's when your brain starts 30s, 40s, that's when your brain starts 30s, 40s, that's when your brain starts shifting as well. So, now I'm having all shifting as well. So, now I'm having all shifting as well. So, now I'm having all kinds of it was just a perfect storm for kinds of it was just a perfect storm for kinds of it was just a perfect storm for a vulnerable character moment. And uh it a vulnerable character moment. And uh it a vulnerable character moment. And uh it was it was it was hard. But I I feel was it was it was hard. But I I feel was it was it was hard. But I I feel like all that stuff plays. So I've got

like all that stuff plays. So I've got like all that stuff plays. So I've got in inner tur turmoil, in inner tur turmoil, in inner tur turmoil, >> inner pain that's not shared. And then >> inner pain that's not shared. And then >> inner pain that's not shared. And then I've got normal middle-aged male stuff I've got normal middle-aged male stuff I've got normal middle-aged male stuff going on. going on. going on. >> And then I've got, you know, some other >> And then I've got, you know, some other >> And then I've got, you know, some other factors. And I don't know what to do factors. And I don't know what to do factors. And I don't know what to do with all this stuff. So I'm not going to with all this stuff. So I'm not going to with all this stuff. So I'm not going to do anything with it. I'm going to keep do anything with it. I'm going to keep do anything with it. I'm going to keep going. going. going. That's that's that's a lot of my story. That's that's that's a lot of my story. That's that's that's a lot of my story. If I point back to the one um the one If I point back to the one um the one If I point back to the one um the one constant of that painful season, it was constant of that painful season, it was constant of that painful season, it was that kind of thing. I don't know. Go. I that kind of thing. I don't know. Go. I that kind of thing. I don't know. Go. I don't know. Keep going. I don't know. don't know. Keep going. I don't know. don't know. Keep going. I don't know. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. >> So, one of the debates and I do want to >> So, one of the debates and I do want to >> So, one of the debates and I do want to get to it and maybe it's premature get to it and maybe it's premature get to it and maybe it's premature because I really want to want to hear because I really want to want to hear because I really want to want to hear your story. your story. your story. >> But, you know, I get this question >> But, you know, I get this question >> But, you know, I get this question semi-regularly. semi-regularly. semi-regularly. >> Is that kind of size? Is that kind of >> Is that kind of size? Is that kind of >> Is that kind of size? Is that kind of momentum? Is that kind of growth? like momentum? Is that kind of growth? like momentum? Is that kind of growth? like what does that do to [snorts] a human what does that do to [snorts] a human what does that do to [snorts] a human being? So, let's take it at the personal being? So, let's take it at the personal being? So, let's take it at the personal level now, then we can talk about level now, then we can talk about level now, then we can talk about organizational later. organizational later. organizational later. >> What did what did that kind of rocket >> What did what did that kind of rocket >> What did what did that kind of rocket ride do to you? It got me burned out at ride do to you? It got me burned out at ride do to you? It got me burned out at 4041. And mine was a tiny little rocket 4041. And mine was a tiny little rocket 4041. And mine was a tiny little rocket compared to yours.

compared to yours. compared to yours. >> And that was a big pivot point in my >> And that was a big pivot point in my >> And that was a big pivot point in my life. Yeah. I I would have been life. Yeah. I I would have been life. Yeah. I I would have been >> in some kind of ditch. I don't know what >> in some kind of ditch. I don't know what >> in some kind of ditch. I don't know what it was. Had my body not stopped working. it was. Had my body not stopped working. it was. Had my body not stopped working. Had God not stopped the train. Had God not stopped the train. Had God not stopped the train. >> People think I was in a ditch. No. No. >> People think I was in a ditch. No. No. >> People think I was in a ditch. No. No. God saved me. The ditch I'd be in now God saved me. The ditch I'd be in now God saved me. The ditch I'd be in now had he not saved me out of that season. had he not saved me out of that season. had he not saved me out of that season. Car, I can't even. Car, I can't even. Car, I can't even. >> Same same thing. You feel like it was >> Same same thing. You feel like it was >> Same same thing. You feel like it was merciful. merciful. merciful. >> The most kind thing God has I mean, he's >> The most kind thing God has I mean, he's >> The most kind thing God has I mean, he's done a lot for me, but it was it was him done a lot for me, but it was it was him done a lot for me, but it was it was him airvacking me out of that season. airvacking me out of that season. airvacking me out of that season. >> It was not a crash and burn. People love >> It was not a crash and burn. People love >> It was not a crash and burn. People love to write that kind of stuff along with to write that kind of stuff along with to write that kind of stuff along with disgraced pastor. To which I challenge disgraced pastor. To which I challenge disgraced pastor. To which I challenge Christian journalists to say, do better. Christian journalists to say, do better. Christian journalists to say, do better. >> I'm not a disgraced pastor at all. What >> I'm not a disgraced pastor at all. What >> I'm not a disgraced pastor at all. What are you? I'm a dad. I'm a husband. I'm a are you? I'm a dad. I'm a husband. I'm a are you? I'm a dad. I'm a husband. I'm a man. I'm a Christian. I'm a follower of man. I'm a Christian. I'm a follower of man. I'm a Christian. I'm a follower of Jesus. I have made mistakes that are Jesus. I have made mistakes that are Jesus. I have made mistakes that are huge. I've also done all I can to huge. I've also done all I can to huge. I've also done all I can to continue to amend those. But disgrace, continue to amend those. But disgrace, continue to amend those. But disgrace, what do you mean disgraced? Why would what do you mean disgraced? Why would what do you mean disgraced? Why would you put that heading on any person? you put that heading on any person? you put that heading on any person? You're a Christian. I get it. If page You're a Christian. I get it. If page You're a Christian. I get it. If page six says it, six says it, six says it, >> but you disgraced, what do you mean? And >> but you disgraced, what do you mean? And >> but you disgraced, what do you mean? And it's a it's a bitter shot from people it's a it's a bitter shot from people it's a it's a bitter shot from people who have not understood that road.

who have not understood that road. who have not understood that road. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I would never look at another man and >> I would never look at another man and >> I would never look at another man and say, "You're a disgrace to anything." say, "You're a disgrace to anything." say, "You're a disgrace to anything." Who Who are you to tell anybody else Who Who are you to tell anybody else Who Who are you to tell anybody else they're disgraced when God says they're they're disgraced when God says they're they're disgraced when God says they're graced? Who are we? So, that's always graced? Who are we? So, that's always graced? Who are we? So, that's always been a fun thing that I've been waiting been a fun thing that I've been waiting been a fun thing that I've been waiting to say for about five years. There it to say for about five years. There it to say for about five years. There it is. Get out of it. There it is. is. Get out of it. There it is. is. Get out of it. There it is. >> Do better. Be a Christian. Put something >> Do better. Be a Christian. Put something >> Do better. Be a Christian. Put something else. Guy who no longer pastors or guy else. Guy who no longer pastors or guy else. Guy who no longer pastors or guy who went through whatever. But to use who went through whatever. But to use who went through whatever. But to use that word to me, um it's sad. that word to me, um it's sad. that word to me, um it's sad. >> So, what do we say in a situation like >> So, what do we say in a situation like >> So, what do we say in a situation like that? that? that? >> Like that? Uh like >> Like that? Uh like >> Like that? Uh like >> I mean I I I just personally I don't see >> I mean I I I just personally I don't see >> I mean I I I just personally I don't see the fruit of labeling people as the fruit of labeling people as the fruit of labeling people as disgraced. I think it's a cheap lazy disgraced. I think it's a cheap lazy disgraced. I think it's a cheap lazy term. term. term. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Lied. >> Lied. >> Lied. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Cheated. >> Cheated. >> Cheated. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Disqualified. >> Disqualified. >> Disqualified. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> From that from that. >> From that from that. >> From that from that. >> That's fair. >> That's fair. >> That's fair. >> Yeah. For sure. I I was I was rightfully >> Yeah. For sure. I I was I was rightfully >> Yeah. For sure. I I was I was rightfully disqualified from the role that I had. disqualified from the role that I had. disqualified from the role that I had. >> Absolutely should have been and was >> Absolutely should have been and was >> Absolutely should have been and was >> fair. Accurate. >> fair. Accurate. >> fair. Accurate. >> I want to go back to the pressure. >> I want to go back to the pressure. >> I want to go back to the pressure. >> Yeah. I talked to so many leaders and >> Yeah. I talked to so many leaders and >> Yeah. I talked to so many leaders and you don't need to leave. you don't need to leave. you don't need to leave. >> So to go back to your question, >> So to go back to your question, >> So to go back to your question, this is open, man. We're not editing this is open, man. We're not editing this is open, man. We're not editing this.

this. this. >> But but you know, I talked to so many >> But but you know, I talked to so many >> But but you know, I talked to so many pastors and you can have 150 people in pastors and you can have 150 people in pastors and you can have 150 people in your church and feel like a freight your church and feel like a freight your church and feel like a freight train's going to hit you every morning. train's going to hit you every morning. train's going to hit you every morning. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And in New York City, it just gets >> And in New York City, it just gets >> And in New York City, it just gets amplified. It amplified. It amplified. It >> I that part of it, and this is this is a >> I that part of it, and this is this is a >> I that part of it, and this is this is a cool thing. I've really talked about cool thing. I've really talked about cool thing. I've really talked about this. Laura and I never read our own this. Laura and I never read our own this. Laura and I never read our own press ever. press ever. press ever. >> Really, >> Really, >> Really, >> ever. I mean, I read article, I think it >> ever. I mean, I read article, I think it >> ever. I mean, I read article, I think it was Rolling Stone or Vanity or Esquire was Rolling Stone or Vanity or Esquire was Rolling Stone or Vanity or Esquire or something, wrote up about you or something, wrote up about you or something, wrote up about you sneaking Bieber into the back door and sneaking Bieber into the back door and sneaking Bieber into the back door and baptizing him and all that stuff. And we baptizing him and all that stuff. And we baptizing him and all that stuff. And we all read it. all read it. all read it. >> Like I And I I allowed I did probably >> Like I And I I allowed I did probably >> Like I And I I allowed I did probably one out of 50 interview requests. one out of 50 interview requests. one out of 50 interview requests. >> That's the ratio. So when people are >> That's the ratio. So when people are >> That's the ratio. So when people are like, you know, I I thought it was the like, you know, I I thought it was the like, you know, I I thought it was the least I could do once in a while to if least I could do once in a while to if least I could do once in a while to if if the world is going to be intrigued by if the world is going to be intrigued by if the world is going to be intrigued by us, us, us, >> which they are and were and hopefully >> which they are and were and hopefully >> which they are and were and hopefully will always be with churches that are will always be with churches that are will always be with churches that are making they they were attracted to what making they they were attracted to what making they they were attracted to what they didn't know has always been. they didn't know has always been. they didn't know has always been. There's always been There's always been There's always been >> influential people that are following >> influential people that are following >> influential people that are following Jesus. Yeah. Always. But for whatever Jesus. Yeah. Always. But for whatever Jesus. Yeah. Always. But for whatever reason with us, they were like, "Wow, reason with us, they were like, "Wow, reason with us, they were like, "Wow, this church is reaching celebrities."

this church is reaching celebrities." this church is reaching celebrities." And I was like, "You ever heard of Billy And I was like, "You ever heard of Billy And I was like, "You ever heard of Billy Graham? You ever heard of Ar Bernard Graham? You ever heard of Ar Bernard Graham? You ever heard of Ar Bernard over there at CCC?" like that. We're not over there at CCC?" like that. We're not over there at CCC?" like that. We're not the first church to reach a lot of the first church to reach a lot of the first church to reach a lot of people. people. people. >> And Hillsong, New York City is 99.9% >> And Hillsong, New York City is 99.9% >> And Hillsong, New York City is 99.9% not celebrity famous. These are just not celebrity famous. These are just not celebrity famous. These are just amazing, awesome people. And we happen amazing, awesome people. And we happen amazing, awesome people. And we happen to have some really famous people to have some really famous people to have some really famous people because we should. I think every church because we should. I think every church because we should. I think every church should have the ability to stretch their should have the ability to stretch their should have the ability to stretch their arms wide enough to reach all swaths of arms wide enough to reach all swaths of arms wide enough to reach all swaths of life. And so for me the I I didn't read life. And so for me the I I didn't read life. And so for me the I I didn't read our press but I definitely felt the our press but I definitely felt the our press but I definitely felt the pressure pressure pressure >> and >> and >> and >> it was hard to manage. It was constant >> it was hard to manage. It was constant >> it was hard to manage. It was constant soul consternation about you know it soul consternation about you know it soul consternation about you know it just it's it's it's magnified. So what I just it's it's it's magnified. So what I just it's it's it's magnified. So what I did was rather than deal with it and did was rather than deal with it and did was rather than deal with it and bring it out I just worked harder at bring it out I just worked harder at bring it out I just worked harder at what was right in front of us. So we what was right in front of us. So we what was right in front of us. So we lived a very we live a very similar life lived a very we live a very similar life lived a very we live a very similar life that we do now. Now when people see that we do now. Now when people see that we do now. Now when people see clips and they see media stuff, they're clips and they see media stuff, they're clips and they see media stuff, they're like these guys are living the high like these guys are living the high like these guys are living the high life. It's like life. It's like life. It's like >> nightclubs every night.

>> nightclubs every night. >> nightclubs every night. >> No, man. Like that's like be smarter. >> No, man. Like that's like be smarter. >> No, man. Like that's like be smarter. Like surely that's not our life. Like surely that's not our life. Like surely that's not our life. >> Like >> Like >> Like >> and and it never was. We had some >> and and it never was. We had some >> and and it never was. We had some phenomenal experiences. I apologize for phenomenal experiences. I apologize for phenomenal experiences. I apologize for none of them. Beautiful. It's fun. But none of them. Beautiful. It's fun. But none of them. Beautiful. It's fun. But that's a very small fraction of our that's a very small fraction of our that's a very small fraction of our life. We had three little baby kids. life. We had three little baby kids. life. We had three little baby kids. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I was very active in New York City. >> And I was very active in New York City. >> And I was very active in New York City. Like we we had three basketball teams in Like we we had three basketball teams in Like we we had three basketball teams in three different leagues. We had uh a three different leagues. We had uh a three different leagues. We had uh a church that was uh to this day I don't church that was uh to this day I don't church that was uh to this day I don't know of a church that's grown like ours. know of a church that's grown like ours. know of a church that's grown like ours. I really don't. And I I I can't wait to I really don't. And I I I can't wait to I really don't. And I I I can't wait to talk about church stats, but uh we were talk about church stats, but uh we were talk about church stats, but uh we were a part of something that was really a part of something that was really a part of something that was really really special. really special. really special. >> Uh but I >> Uh but I >> Uh but I >> the weight of um some of the celebrity >> the weight of um some of the celebrity >> the weight of um some of the celebrity pastor labels or whatever. Um I just I pastor labels or whatever. Um I just I pastor labels or whatever. Um I just I my I was taught too well my I was taught too well my I was taught too well >> to to believe that or to lean into that. >> to to believe that or to lean into that. >> to to believe that or to lean into that. If anything, it was uncomfortable. If anything, it was uncomfortable. If anything, it was uncomfortable. >> When you see people, you had to move >> When you see people, you had to move >> When you see people, you had to move venues numerous times cuz you kept venues numerous times cuz you kept venues numerous times cuz you kept outgrowing them. outgrowing them. outgrowing them. >> Over 37 venues. >> Over 37 venues. >> Over 37 venues. >> 37 venues. >> 37 venues. >> 37 venues. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And I still remember, you know, in the >> And I still remember, you know, in the >> And I still remember, you know, in the early days of Instagram and mid days of early days of Instagram and mid days of early days of Instagram and mid days of Instagram, seeing the lineups around the Instagram, seeing the lineups around the Instagram, seeing the lineups around the block, the packed rooms.

block, the packed rooms. block, the packed rooms. >> Yeah. What did that do to you? >> Yeah. What did that do to you? >> Yeah. What did that do to you? >> It it started to wear me out because I >> It it started to wear me out because I >> It it started to wear me out because I didn't have margin. I didn't understand didn't have margin. I didn't understand didn't have margin. I didn't understand it. I remember one night and my team was it. I remember one night and my team was it. I remember one night and my team was amazing. Like I just absolutely so proud amazing. Like I just absolutely so proud amazing. Like I just absolutely so proud of the team we had. But I vividly of the team we had. But I vividly of the team we had. But I vividly remember Irving Plaza ser service number remember Irving Plaza ser service number remember Irving Plaza ser service number seven and I was absolutely exhausted and seven and I was absolutely exhausted and seven and I was absolutely exhausted and I was laying down on this couch and uh I was laying down on this couch and uh I was laying down on this couch and uh somebody had said, "Hey, I know you somebody had said, "Hey, I know you somebody had said, "Hey, I know you planned on having somebody else do this planned on having somebody else do this planned on having somebody else do this or u maybe we'll play a video. Um or u maybe we'll play a video. Um or u maybe we'll play a video. Um there's about 700 people outside who there's about 700 people outside who there's about 700 people outside who couldn't get into the last one, so we couldn't get into the last one, so we couldn't get into the last one, so we could probably do another one." could probably do another one." could probably do another one." >> 700 people couldn't get into >> 700 people couldn't get into >> 700 people couldn't get into >> No pressure. Um, but just wanted you to >> No pressure. Um, but just wanted you to >> No pressure. Um, but just wanted you to know. And I remember going, "Of course know. And I remember going, "Of course know. And I remember going, "Of course I'm going to do it." Like, of who I'm going to do it." Like, of who I'm going to do it." Like, of who wouldn't do that wouldn't do that wouldn't do that >> now? I wouldn't have done the third one. >> now? I wouldn't have done the third one. >> now? I wouldn't have done the third one. I would have been like, "They're going I would have been like, "They're going I would have been like, "They're going to be okay. Not for me. Hopefully, Jesus to be okay. Not for me. Hopefully, Jesus to be okay. Not for me. Hopefully, Jesus is going to still be Jesus and God's is going to still be Jesus and God's is going to still be Jesus and God's going to build his church." But I'm not going to build his church." But I'm not going to build his church." But I'm not doing that. Yeah. doing that. Yeah. doing that. Yeah. >> When you're third, early 30s.

>> When you're third, early 30s. >> When you're third, early 30s. >> Nah. You're not telling me nothing, >> Nah. You're not telling me nothing, >> Nah. You're not telling me nothing, Carrie. I'm doing it. I'm preaching it Carrie. I'm doing it. I'm preaching it Carrie. I'm doing it. I'm preaching it all until my throat bleeds. And I did. It's it's interesting to talk about It's it's interesting to talk about because was always a beautiful escape in the was always a beautiful escape in the best way is like for that swath of time. best way is like for that swath of time. best way is like for that swath of time. I'm going to talk about Jesus and I can I'm going to talk about Jesus and I can I'm going to talk about Jesus and I can do that forever. And it's like do that forever. And it's like do that forever. And it's like everything you forget about everything. everything you forget about everything. everything you forget about everything. It's like I get to preach this gospel. It's like I get to preach this gospel. It's like I get to preach this gospel. It's the It's the greatest message ever It's the It's the greatest message ever It's the It's the greatest message ever preached. It's the only answer for our preached. It's the only answer for our preached. It's the only answer for our world. I'm And I'm going to I'm going to world. I'm And I'm going to I'm going to world. I'm And I'm going to I'm going to give it I'm going to go out like it's give it I'm going to go out like it's give it I'm going to go out like it's the last one. I I honestly had that that the last one. I I honestly had that that the last one. I I honestly had that that mantra. I don't know if I would tell a mantra. I don't know if I would tell a mantra. I don't know if I would tell a young pastor to have it, but if this is young pastor to have it, but if this is young pastor to have it, but if this is the last time I ever preach, let me the last time I ever preach, let me the last time I ever preach, let me leave nothing on this pit. Let me leave leave nothing on this pit. Let me leave leave nothing on this pit. Let me leave nothing on the table. And I preach like nothing on the table. And I preach like nothing on the table. And I preach like that every single time. And I'm proud of that every single time. And I'm proud of that every single time. And I'm proud of the work we put in there. I'm proud of the work we put in there. I'm proud of the work we put in there. I'm proud of the gospel seeds we planted. Um, and it the gospel seeds we planted. Um, and it the gospel seeds we planted. Um, and it was too much. It was just too much. And was too much. It was just too much. And was too much. It was just too much. And I know that now.

I know that now. I know that now. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. [sighs] [sighs] [sighs] [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] When did When did When did when did the stuff that ultimately led when did the stuff that ultimately led when did the stuff that ultimately led to the end, when did that start? to the end, when did that start? to the end, when did that start? >> Yeah. The emotion I'm trying to track it >> Yeah. The emotion I'm trying to track it >> Yeah. The emotion I'm trying to track it and I'm such a freaking therapy guy that and I'm such a freaking therapy guy that and I'm such a freaking therapy guy that I've learned the power of I will tell I've learned the power of I will tell I've learned the power of I will tell you. We'll camp on it. We'll camp on it. you. We'll camp on it. We'll camp on it. you. We'll camp on it. We'll camp on it. I think I I think there is something in I think I I think there is something in I think I I think there is something in me that we ate when you completely trash me that we ate when you completely trash me that we ate when you completely trash your reputation, your reputation, your reputation, you lose the right to defend the good you lose the right to defend the good you lose the right to defend the good you did. And there was there has been you did. And there was there has been you did. And there was there has been times on this journey where I'm like, is times on this journey where I'm like, is times on this journey where I'm like, is anybody going to also highlight anybody going to also highlight anybody going to also highlight the fact that we freaking poured out our the fact that we freaking poured out our the fact that we freaking poured out our lives trying to do the right thing and lives trying to do the right thing and lives trying to do the right thing and leading a church in a wilderness? And it leading a church in a wilderness? And it leading a church in a wilderness? And it was like, and no one, we're not owed was like, and no one, we're not owed was like, and no one, we're not owed that. That's the consequence of that. That's the consequence of that. That's the consequence of destroying your reputation is no. People destroying your reputation is no. People destroying your reputation is no. People aren't going to talk about some of the aren't going to talk about some of the aren't going to talk about some of the good stuff. Fair. good stuff. Fair. good stuff. Fair. >> My heart remembers all of it. So, it's >> My heart remembers all of it. So, it's >> My heart remembers all of it. So, it's like you have to eat that if you have like you have to eat that if you have like you have to eat that if you have done and and did the things that I did.

done and and did the things that I did. done and and did the things that I did. I don't get to be like, "Hey, well, I I don't get to be like, "Hey, well, I I don't get to be like, "Hey, well, I was genuinely preaching my heart out." was genuinely preaching my heart out." was genuinely preaching my heart out." >> It's true though, like we did our >> It's true though, like we did our >> It's true though, like we did our absolute best. We did the best we knew absolute best. We did the best we knew absolute best. We did the best we knew how to do. And that's true, too. how to do. And that's true, too. how to do. And that's true, too. [snorts] And I think And I think you know that's one of the sadly one of you know that's one of the sadly one of you know that's one of the sadly one of the questions of our age. the questions of our age. the questions of our age. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is the list of pastors >> Is the list of pastors >> Is the list of pastors >> who crossed a line. >> who crossed a line. >> who crossed a line. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And one day I'm going to talk about what >> And one day I'm going to talk about what >> And one day I'm going to talk about what is that line. is that line. is that line. >> Beautiful >> Beautiful >> Beautiful >> man. We'll have another conversation >> man. We'll have another conversation >> man. We'll have another conversation another day. another day. another day. >> Bring me back on for that one. >> Bring me back on for that one. >> Bring me back on for that one. >> What is that line? Uh that that's I got >> What is that line? Uh that that's I got >> What is that line? Uh that that's I got to do a lot of thinking about that to do a lot of thinking about that to do a lot of thinking about that because because because >> there's some line and I don't know where >> there's some line and I don't know where >> there's some line and I don't know where it is it is it is >> that somehow says I still get to play >> that somehow says I still get to play >> that somehow says I still get to play and you don't. and you don't. and you don't. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Right. Like I don't know what that is. I >> Right. Like I don't know what that is. I >> Right. Like I don't know what that is. I got to figure that out. And I think it's got to figure that out. And I think it's got to figure that out. And I think it's good that we have a line good that we have a line good that we have a line >> but sometimes it's pretty arbitrary >> but sometimes it's pretty arbitrary >> but sometimes it's pretty arbitrary >> and we have to figure that out. >> and we have to figure that out. >> and we have to figure that out. >> Subjective. >> Subjective. >> Subjective. >> It's very subjective. And anyway that's >> It's very subjective. And anyway that's >> It's very subjective. And anyway that's >> yes >> yes >> yes >> for another day.

>> for another day. >> for another day. >> Yeah. But, you know, there's so many of >> Yeah. But, you know, there's so many of >> Yeah. But, you know, there's so many of us who have felt that pressure. And when us who have felt that pressure. And when us who have felt that pressure. And when a pastor crosses the line, that's where a pastor crosses the line, that's where a pastor crosses the line, that's where I was going. It it gets to the point I was going. It it gets to the point I was going. It it gets to the point where um you can almost look back and where um you can almost look back and where um you can almost look back and go, "Nothing good happened at Hillsong, go, "Nothing good happened at Hillsong, go, "Nothing good happened at Hillsong, New York. Nothing good." Here, cue the New York. Nothing good." Here, cue the New York. Nothing good." Here, cue the list of all of these pastors. Nothing list of all of these pastors. Nothing list of all of these pastors. Nothing good happened. It was all a lie. It was good happened. It was all a lie. It was good happened. It was all a lie. It was all a joke. It was all a scam. all a joke. It was all a scam. all a joke. It was all a scam. >> And we got hoodwinkedked. >> And we got hoodwinkedked. >> And we got hoodwinkedked. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I've gone into a lot of those And I've gone into a lot of those And I've gone into a lot of those questions. And you know, once in a while questions. And you know, once in a while questions. And you know, once in a while I'm sure there's a con man. Once in a I'm sure there's a con man. Once in a I'm sure there's a con man. Once in a while I'm sure it's it was all a ruse. while I'm sure it's it was all a ruse. while I'm sure it's it was all a ruse. It was all It was all It was all >> I was stealing money. I was just trying >> I was stealing money. I was just trying >> I was stealing money. I was just trying to get famous. to get famous. to get famous. >> But when you really have a conversation, >> But when you really have a conversation, >> But when you really have a conversation, not just with the leads, but with their not just with the leads, but with their not just with the leads, but with their teams, teams, teams, >> what you realize is no, your heart was >> what you realize is no, your heart was >> what you realize is no, your heart was >> in the right place and you're fallen >> in the right place and you're fallen >> in the right place and you're fallen >> and you're a sinner. >> and you're a sinner. >> and you're a sinner. >> Yeah. and stuff got out of hand. >> Yeah. and stuff got out of hand. >> Yeah. and stuff got out of hand. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you ended up in that place. So it's >> And you ended up in that place. So it's >> And you ended up in that place. So it's not even always not even always not even always >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> intent. >> intent. >> intent. >> You know, and yet you have to take full >> You know, and yet you have to take full >> You know, and yet you have to take full responsibility for it. I have to take responsibility for it. I have to take responsibility for it. I have to take 100% responsibility for my actions. You 100% responsibility for my actions. You 100% responsibility for my actions. You do for yours. do for yours. do for yours. >> Is there anything else under that >> Is there anything else under that >> Is there anything else under that emotion before I get to my next emotion before I get to my next emotion before I get to my next question? question? question? >> No. No. That's it. It it just is a it's >> No. No. That's it. It it just is a it's >> No. No. That's it. It it just is a it's no longer something that I need people no longer something that I need people no longer something that I need people to understand. to understand. to understand. >> Fair. >> Fair. >> Fair. >> It is something I like to say. Yeah. >> It is something I like to say. Yeah. >> It is something I like to say. Yeah. >> So, it's like I'm not going to I >> So, it's like I'm not going to I >> So, it's like I'm not going to I remember the first uh we did we we remember the first uh we did we we remember the first uh we did we we participated in one of the documentaries participated in one of the documentaries participated in one of the documentaries and uh I remember thinking this is going and uh I remember thinking this is going and uh I remember thinking this is going to be great. People are going to to be great. People are going to to be great. People are going to definitely go okay that makes sense. definitely go okay that makes sense. definitely go okay that makes sense. >> That did not happen. >> That did not happen. >> That did not happen. >> And I remember [laughter] >> And I remember [laughter] >> And I remember [laughter] people say the opposite. people say the opposite. people say the opposite. >> Well, no. I mean, for some people it >> Well, no. I mean, for some people it >> Well, no. I mean, for some people it did, but I thought it would be like did, but I thought it would be like did, but I thought it would be like finally like it's been it's been two finally like it's been it's been two finally like it's been it's been two years. I haven't said a word and I'm years. I haven't said a word and I'm years. I haven't said a word and I'm just going to speak this one thing and just going to speak this one thing and just going to speak this one thing and I'm going to let people know these these I'm going to let people know these these I'm going to let people know these these things and then that'll shut up some things and then that'll shut up some things and then that'll shut up some people. And then I was like, "Oh, people people. And then I was like, "Oh, people people. And then I was like, "Oh, people act they don't care about the truth. act they don't care about the truth. act they don't care about the truth. Sometimes they are married to the story Sometimes they are married to the story Sometimes they are married to the story they tell themselves about me and I'm they tell themselves about me and I'm they tell themselves about me and I'm never going to be able to change it." So never going to be able to change it." So never going to be able to change it." So I either just get bitter about that or I I either just get bitter about that or I I either just get bitter about that or I let it go let it go let it go >> and I let that thing go. It was the >> and I let that thing go. It was the >> and I let that thing go. It was the greatest part of my new life was finding greatest part of my new life was finding greatest part of my new life was finding out I have a deep need to be understood out I have a deep need to be understood out I have a deep need to be understood and that killed me.

and that killed me. and that killed me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So let me not do that again. >> So let me not do that again. >> So let me not do that again. >> I'm not going to be understood. It's >> I'm not going to be understood. It's >> I'm not going to be understood. It's such a free life. It's okay. I'm going such a free life. It's okay. I'm going such a free life. It's okay. I'm going to do all I can to be to be clear and to to do all I can to be to be clear and to to do all I can to be to be clear and to be you know easy easy to get but at the be you know easy easy to get but at the be you know easy easy to get but at the end of the day if you care if you don't end of the day if you care if you don't end of the day if you care if you don't understand me I can't control that. understand me I can't control that. understand me I can't control that. >> Wish you the best but I'm not going to >> Wish you the best but I'm not going to >> Wish you the best but I'm not going to go lose sleep over it. go lose sleep over it. go lose sleep over it. >> Yeah. How did how did the sex start? >> Yeah. How did how did the sex start? >> Yeah. How did how did the sex start? >> So being sexually broken typically >> So being sexually broken typically >> So being sexually broken typically starts way before you even know what sex starts way before you even know what sex starts way before you even know what sex is. That's the truth of my story as is. That's the truth of my story as is. That's the truth of my story as well. Um and I don't even feel the need well. Um and I don't even feel the need well. Um and I don't even feel the need to say this anymore. I say it just to be to say this anymore. I say it just to be to say this anymore. I say it just to be super clear for your amazing listeners super clear for your amazing listeners super clear for your amazing listeners who might not uh be familiar with who might not uh be familiar with who might not uh be familiar with anything about our story. When people anything about our story. When people anything about our story. When people like me share reasons, they are not like me share reasons, they are not like me share reasons, they are not excuses. Thank you. excuses. Thank you. excuses. Thank you. >> Yeah. The there is no excuse for what I >> Yeah. The there is no excuse for what I >> Yeah. The there is no excuse for what I did. Zero. There's no couching it. did. Zero. There's no couching it. did. Zero. There's no couching it. There's no like this. None of it. I am There's no like this. None of it. I am There's no like this. None of it. I am responsible. Um I have to stand in the responsible. Um I have to stand in the responsible. Um I have to stand in the consequence of those decisions for the consequence of those decisions for the consequence of those decisions for the rest of my life. Yeah.

rest of my life. Yeah. rest of my life. Yeah. >> And if I can go back and dig up reasons >> And if I can go back and dig up reasons >> And if I can go back and dig up reasons and let people know, maybe they don't and let people know, maybe they don't and let people know, maybe they don't have to hit that same thing that I hit. have to hit that same thing that I hit. have to hit that same thing that I hit. That's why I do what I do. That's why I do what I do. That's why I do what I do. >> Yeah. No, from that perspective, because >> Yeah. No, from that perspective, because >> Yeah. No, from that perspective, because we're all broken. we're all broken. we're all broken. >> There's no excuse. Zero. when it comes >> There's no excuse. Zero. when it comes >> There's no excuse. Zero. when it comes to the sexual sin in my life, it was not to the sexual sin in my life, it was not to the sexual sin in my life, it was not I didn't just end up like I lived a very I didn't just end up like I lived a very I didn't just end up like I lived a very very very very very very very uh strong uh strong uh strong um moral above reproach life way more um moral above reproach life way more um moral above reproach life way more consistently than I did a reckless consistently than I did a reckless consistently than I did a reckless destructive sexual life. That's the destructive sexual life. That's the destructive sexual life. That's the truth. truth. truth. >> Now I know I look back and I go well >> Now I know I look back and I go well >> Now I know I look back and I go well sexually abused as a little guy. Well, sexually abused as a little guy. Well, sexually abused as a little guy. Well, that's it that they it's gonna it that's it that they it's gonna it that's it that they it's gonna it happened. happened. happened. >> Sorry. >> Sorry. >> Sorry. >> Um, and I didn't know what to do with >> Um, and I didn't know what to do with >> Um, and I didn't know what to do with that ever. Now I know cuz I I'm like a I that ever. Now I know cuz I I'm like a I that ever. Now I know cuz I I'm like a I just have dove into the the psyche about just have dove into the the psyche about just have dove into the the psyche about abuse and what sexual trauma does. And I abuse and what sexual trauma does. And I abuse and what sexual trauma does. And I now know my template was shifted as a now know my template was shifted as a now know my template was shifted as a little guy and it was attached to hidden little guy and it was attached to hidden little guy and it was attached to hidden things that are risky and exciting things that are risky and exciting things that are risky and exciting >> cuz I was abused by a guy, you know, >> cuz I was abused by a guy, you know, >> cuz I was abused by a guy, you know, that had to do with watching things and that had to do with watching things and that had to do with watching things and I'm a little I have no idea. But my I'm a little I have no idea. But my I'm a little I have no idea. But my brain, my body remembered it all.

brain, my body remembered it all. brain, my body remembered it all. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> And so then I start sneaking into some >> And so then I start sneaking into some >> And so then I start sneaking into some porn situations that my parents don't porn situations that my parents don't porn situations that my parents don't know about. Just little bits here and know about. Just little bits here and know about. Just little bits here and there. And my parents were incredible. there. And my parents were incredible. there. And my parents were incredible. And at that era, it was more like no, And at that era, it was more like no, And at that era, it was more like no, like look this way, not that way. It like look this way, not that way. It like look this way, not that way. It wasn't like I I have conversations with wasn't like I I have conversations with wasn't like I I have conversations with my son cuz I was talking to my dad. I my son cuz I was talking to my dad. I my son cuz I was talking to my dad. I was like, "Dad, you did the best you was like, "Dad, you did the best you was like, "Dad, you did the best you could. I should be having different could. I should be having different could. I should be having different combos combos combos >> than you had with me because I know >> than you had with me because I know >> than you had with me because I know twice as much as you did." So in Roman twice as much as you did." So in Roman twice as much as you did." So in Roman should have twice as better [laughter] should have twice as better [laughter] should have twice as better [laughter] >> conversations with his son, but back >> conversations with his son, but back >> conversations with his son, but back then it was like, "No, this this we then it was like, "No, this this we then it was like, "No, this this we don't we don't do this. We don't do don't we don't do this. We don't do don't we don't do this. We don't do this." And I'm like, I get that that's this." And I'm like, I get that that's this." And I'm like, I get that that's wrong. I get it's wrong, but my gosh, do wrong. I get it's wrong, but my gosh, do wrong. I get it's wrong, but my gosh, do I love it. I love it. I love it. >> So what do I do? That means I'm bad now. >> So what do I do? That means I'm bad now. >> So what do I do? That means I'm bad now. So, I've got this shame thing in me So, I've got this shame thing in me So, I've got this shame thing in me growing up as a kid, as as a young man, growing up as a kid, as as a young man, growing up as a kid, as as a young man, and now I'm getting into actual sexual and now I'm getting into actual sexual and now I'm getting into actual sexual sexual activity at 14 as a as a guy sexual activity at 14 as a as a guy sexual activity at 14 as a as a guy trying to figure it out. trying to figure it out. trying to figure it out. >> And then start living a life of many >> And then start living a life of many >> And then start living a life of many people who don't adhere to our faith. people who don't adhere to our faith. people who don't adhere to our faith. I'm just I'm having sex when I want to. I'm just I'm having sex when I want to. I'm just I'm having sex when I want to. And and multiple girls in high school, And and multiple girls in high school, And and multiple girls in high school, you go to college, same deal. And then you go to college, same deal. And then you go to college, same deal. And then you get saved.

you get saved. you get saved. >> It's like, no more of that, right? >> It's like, no more of that, right? >> It's like, no more of that, right? >> Got it. We're going to pray and we're >> Got it. We're going to pray and we're >> Got it. We're going to pray and we're going to war and we are going to walk going to war and we are going to walk going to war and we are going to walk away from that life of sin. Cool, man. away from that life of sin. Cool, man. away from that life of sin. Cool, man. That's summer camp talk. Biologically, That's summer camp talk. Biologically, That's summer camp talk. Biologically, scientifically, you Jesus can completely scientifically, you Jesus can completely scientifically, you Jesus can completely heal somebody's sexual broken past. heal somebody's sexual broken past. heal somebody's sexual broken past. Awesome. In an instant. And sometimes he Awesome. In an instant. And sometimes he Awesome. In an instant. And sometimes he heals it over time. And sometimes he heals it over time. And sometimes he heals it over time. And sometimes he heals it in ways we're not ready for. heals it in ways we're not ready for. heals it in ways we're not ready for. And for me, I didn't get delivered from And for me, I didn't get delivered from And for me, I didn't get delivered from every feeling I had. I didn't get every feeling I had. I didn't get every feeling I had. I didn't get delivered from my patterns that I had delivered from my patterns that I had delivered from my patterns that I had set for decades. set for decades. set for decades. >> And uh so I did a great job of gutting >> And uh so I did a great job of gutting >> And uh so I did a great job of gutting it out for a long time, it out for a long time, it out for a long time, >> you know, I mean, faithful to my wife, >> you know, I mean, faithful to my wife, >> you know, I mean, faithful to my wife, faithful to my call. faithful to my call. faithful to my call. >> And the little seeds, it it wasn't uh it >> And the little seeds, it it wasn't uh it >> And the little seeds, it it wasn't uh it wasn't an avalanche. It was just like a wasn't an avalanche. It was just like a wasn't an avalanche. It was just like a allowing a thought to go somewhere allowing a thought to go somewhere allowing a thought to go somewhere further and allowing something to become further and allowing something to become further and allowing something to become something that shouldn't have been something that shouldn't have been something that shouldn't have been whatever it is or just little fraying whatever it is or just little fraying whatever it is or just little fraying moments where you're like I look back moments where you're like I look back moments where you're like I look back now and I'm like yeah that's uh you know now and I'm like yeah that's uh you know now and I'm like yeah that's uh you know I I think back to a I I think back to a I I think back to a >> early uh massage situation that I was in >> early uh massage situation that I was in >> early uh massage situation that I was in completely above board nothing was wrong completely above board nothing was wrong completely above board nothing was wrong completely you know standard completely you know standard completely you know standard >> grade a standard doctor but my body >> grade a standard doctor but my body >> grade a standard doctor but my body didn't feel like that didn't feel like that didn't feel like that >> and I left there going >> and I left there going >> and I left there going What was that feeling? Oh my gosh, What was that feeling? Oh my gosh, What was that feeling? Oh my gosh, that's terrible. Like I I I I got to go that's terrible. Like I I I I got to go that's terrible. Like I I I I got to go pray more.

pray more. pray more. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Now, if a young pastor were to sit in >> Now, if a young pastor were to sit in >> Now, if a young pastor were to sit in front of me and say, "I got a massage. front of me and say, "I got a massage. front of me and say, "I got a massage. Everything was fine. My body was on fire Everything was fine. My body was on fire Everything was fine. My body was on fire and my mind went crazy. I want to tell and my mind went crazy. I want to tell and my mind went crazy. I want to tell you about it. I've got great call, man. you about it. I've got great call, man. you about it. I've got great call, man. Let's talk about it. You're not wrong. Let's talk about it. You're not wrong. Let's talk about it. You're not wrong. You're not broken. You're not weird. You're not broken. You're not weird. You're not broken. You're not weird. You're not lusting. You're not lusting. You're not lusting. Let's talk about how you got there. Let's talk about how you got there. Let's talk about how you got there. Let's talk about what's going on in your Let's talk about what's going on in your Let's talk about what's going on in your heart." I that wasn't me me. It was I'm heart." I that wasn't me me. It was I'm heart." I that wasn't me me. It was I'm fine. I'm good. I will never go. I'll fine. I'm good. I will never go. I'll fine. I'm good. I will never go. I'll never go there again. never go there again. never go there again. >> But that that that that thing cooks >> But that that that that thing cooks >> But that that that that thing cooks >> and then over time you've got this this >> and then over time you've got this this >> and then over time you've got this this volcano in you volcano in you volcano in you >> that you can white knuckle it >> that you can white knuckle it >> that you can white knuckle it >> for if you're strong and you're diligent >> for if you're strong and you're diligent >> for if you're strong and you're diligent for a while uh until you can't. for a while uh until you can't. for a while uh until you can't. >> Was there a breaking point for you that >> Was there a breaking point for you that >> Was there a breaking point for you that made you decide to take action made you decide to take action made you decide to take action like to turn thoughts and feelings into like to turn thoughts and feelings into like to turn thoughts and feelings into action? action? action? No, not that I can remember. No, it was No, not that I can remember. No, it was No, not that I can remember. No, it was just a just a just a >> um >> um >> um [sighs] [sighs] [sighs] great question. I've never thought about great question. I've never thought about great question. I've never thought about it like that.

it like that. it like that. >> No, I I I just feel like it's a it's the >> No, I I I just feel like it's a it's the >> No, I I I just feel like it's a it's the old metaphor of just cooking a frog, old metaphor of just cooking a frog, old metaphor of just cooking a frog, turning up that water one degree higher turning up that water one degree higher turning up that water one degree higher and higher. and higher. and higher. >> So, when >> So, when >> So, when the relationship started, the sex the relationship started, the sex the relationship started, the sex started outside of marriage. started outside of marriage. started outside of marriage. >> Yeah. What did that do to the inside of >> Yeah. What did that do to the inside of >> Yeah. What did that do to the inside of you? you? you? >> Um, honestly, Carrie, it's it's such >> Um, honestly, Carrie, it's it's such >> Um, honestly, Carrie, it's it's such it's such a horrible, torturous thing. it's such a horrible, torturous thing. it's such a horrible, torturous thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That I just have a lot of grace for guys >> That I just have a lot of grace for guys >> That I just have a lot of grace for guys that are carrying stuff like I did. So, that are carrying stuff like I did. So, that are carrying stuff like I did. So, for me, it was the beginning of the end for me, it was the beginning of the end for me, it was the beginning of the end of my sanity because and and I look back of my sanity because and and I look back of my sanity because and and I look back on now and I'm grateful because if it's on now and I'm grateful because if it's on now and I'm grateful because if it's not, not, not, >> my conscience is seared. And I'm one of >> my conscience is seared. And I'm one of >> my conscience is seared. And I'm one of the guys we talked about, the charlatan, the guys we talked about, the charlatan, the guys we talked about, the charlatan, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> The guy who is in this >> The guy who is in this >> The guy who is in this >> con from day one. Yeah. And for me, I >> con from day one. Yeah. And for me, I >> con from day one. Yeah. And for me, I look back, so I I when I went to, you look back, so I I when I went to, you look back, so I I when I went to, you know, rehab years later, I have an know, rehab years later, I have an know, rehab years later, I have an anxiety disorder. I have all these anxiety disorder. I have all these anxiety disorder. I have all these things and I'm like, well, I guess in things and I'm like, well, I guess in things and I'm like, well, I guess in one hand, thank God, because one hand, thank God, because one hand, thank God, because >> if you're doing what I was doing, which >> if you're doing what I was doing, which >> if you're doing what I was doing, which is essentially living in in some ways a is essentially living in in some ways a is essentially living in in some ways a double life double life double life >> and you don't have soul contention >> and you don't have soul contention >> and you don't have soul contention there, that's that would be but me, I I there, that's that would be but me, I I there, that's that would be but me, I I that's suicidal ideiation kicked up that's suicidal ideiation kicked up that's suicidal ideiation kicked up immediately.

And that that scared me because I'm not And that that scared me because I'm not doing anything that's but I'm like I doing anything that's but I'm like I doing anything that's but I'm like I don't I I I I want to I want to just don't I I I I want to I want to just don't I I I I want to I want to just leave the leave the the planet. But leave the leave the the planet. But leave the leave the the planet. But that's that's stupid. I know now if you that's that's stupid. I know now if you that's that's stupid. I know now if you have these thoughts but you got to these have these thoughts but you got to these have these thoughts but you got to these are not normal. are not normal. are not normal. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No one no one you don't go through a >> No one no one you don't go through a >> No one no one you don't go through a struggle and go I'm going to kill struggle and go I'm going to kill struggle and go I'm going to kill myself. But that's how heavy the like as myself. But that's how heavy the like as myself. But that's how heavy the like as I do um I'm try to get through this I do um I'm try to get through this I do um I'm try to get through this without sobbing. But Take your time, Take your time, man. Um, and I have so much reverence man. Um, and I have so much reverence man. Um, and I have so much reverence for it. And it's fair for a critic to for it. And it's fair for a critic to for it. And it's fair for a critic to go, "Really? Did you?" Cool. You can go, "Really? Did you?" Cool. You can go, "Really? Did you?" Cool. You can judge me all you want. I'm telling you judge me all you want. I'm telling you judge me all you want. I'm telling you that I counted it a high privilege to that I counted it a high privilege to that I counted it a high privilege to leave people in that platform. High.

leave people in that platform. High. leave people in that platform. High. Reverend. So to violate that in private Reverend. So to violate that in private Reverend. So to violate that in private and not handle it correctly and not handle it correctly and not handle it correctly in any way is horrible for my soul. And in any way is horrible for my soul. And in any way is horrible for my soul. And uh uh uh [sighs] it's it's something I I will [sighs] it's it's something I I will [sighs] it's it's something I I will never let go of. I I I it's not shame. never let go of. I I I it's not shame. never let go of. I I I it's not shame. It's a reminder to me. It's a reminder to me. It's a reminder to me. >> It's a reminder. And so, yeah, it it uh >> It's a reminder. And so, yeah, it it uh >> It's a reminder. And so, yeah, it it uh it's hard to carry a reverent call, a it's hard to carry a reverent call, a it's hard to carry a reverent call, a holy call with with the kind of stuff I holy call with with the kind of stuff I holy call with with the kind of stuff I was dealing with. was dealing with. was dealing with. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And there's there's some stuff we're all >> And there's there's some stuff we're all >> And there's there's some stuff we're all going to deal with, but the the bar to going to deal with, but the the bar to going to deal with, but the the bar to be a leader, to be a pastor is be a leader, to be a pastor is be a leader, to be a pastor is rightfully really high. It's beautiful. rightfully really high. It's beautiful. rightfully really high. It's beautiful. It's special for a reason. And uh to It's special for a reason. And uh to It's special for a reason. And uh to know I'm violating that um you know, it know I'm violating that um you know, it know I'm violating that um you know, it was hard. It was horrible. And it's it was hard. It was horrible. And it's it was hard. It was horrible. And it's it started to wear on my sanity for sure. started to wear on my sanity for sure. started to wear on my sanity for sure. >> Because I didn't know what to do. >> Because I didn't know what to do. >> Because I didn't know what to do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think we've all lived with gaps >> I think we've all lived with gaps >> I think we've all lived with gaps >> between our private walk and our public >> between our private walk and our public >> between our private walk and our public talk and a season in which talk and a season in which talk and a season in which >> my marriage wasn't good.

>> my marriage wasn't good. >> my marriage wasn't good. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, there were times where we were >> You know, there were times where we were >> You know, there were times where we were yelling at each other at breakfast yelling at each other at breakfast yelling at each other at breakfast >> and then I'm up there for two or three >> and then I'm up there for two or three >> and then I'm up there for two or three services [laughter] like here we go. And services [laughter] like here we go. And services [laughter] like here we go. And you know it's and that's why I want to you know it's and that's why I want to you know it's and that's why I want to talk about the line at some point. Where talk about the line at some point. Where talk about the line at some point. Where is that line? is that line? is that line? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I mean, okay. So, it's uh a common >> I mean, okay. So, it's uh a common >> I mean, okay. So, it's uh a common question is like uh I'll let Yeah. question is like uh I'll let Yeah. question is like uh I'll let Yeah. >> No, you go. You go. Common question is, >> No, you go. You go. Common question is, >> No, you go. You go. Common question is, >> you know, how do you how do you preach >> you know, how do you how do you preach >> you know, how do you how do you preach >> and and and do and do and be doing these >> and and and do and do and be doing these >> and and and do and do and be doing these things? things? things? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> My answer is hard for people to hear. Uh >> My answer is hard for people to hear. Uh >> My answer is hard for people to hear. Uh and I don't even mean it to be a slight, and I don't even mean it to be a slight, and I don't even mean it to be a slight, but I go, "Well, how do you live your but I go, "Well, how do you live your but I go, "Well, how do you live your life life life >> like that? [laughter] That's how I did >> like that? [laughter] That's how I did >> like that? [laughter] That's how I did it." Okay, that's interesting. it." Okay, that's interesting. it." Okay, that's interesting. >> That's how I did it. How could you get >> That's how I did it. How could you get >> That's how I did it. How could you get up and preach and have this stuff going? up and preach and have this stuff going? up and preach and have this stuff going? I don't know. How do you live your every I don't know. How do you live your every I don't know. How do you live your every day? day? day? >> Because what we all do and what I did >> Because what we all do and what I did >> Because what we all do and what I did then, it was wrong. But every single then, it was wrong. But every single then, it was wrong. But every single preacher in America this Sunday will get preacher in America this Sunday will get preacher in America this Sunday will get up with sin in their life. Every single up with sin in their life. Every single up with sin in their life. Every single one. They have made peace in their mind one. They have made peace in their mind one. They have made peace in their mind with that the sin that they're working with that the sin that they're working with that the sin that they're working through is acceptable. It's below the through is acceptable. It's below the through is acceptable. It's below the line.

line. line. >> They've made that. Yeah. So, whatever >> They've made that. Yeah. So, whatever >> They've made that. Yeah. So, whatever where the line is, I'm alone. The line. where the line is, I'm alone. The line. where the line is, I'm alone. The line. >> Well, guess what happens when that thing >> Well, guess what happens when that thing >> Well, guess what happens when that thing that they think is okay. Well, if if that they think is okay. Well, if if that they think is okay. Well, if if there's not a clearer line, then we're there's not a clearer line, then we're there's not a clearer line, then we're all going to make it work for us. So, all going to make it work for us. So, all going to make it work for us. So, for me, it's like uh one funny thing is for me, it's like uh one funny thing is for me, it's like uh one funny thing is that I always thought every time I that I always thought every time I that I always thought every time I failed in this regard, um it was the failed in this regard, um it was the failed in this regard, um it was the last time. last time. last time. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Every freaking time. >> Every freaking time. >> Every freaking time. >> So, that was old me. like >> So, that was old me. like >> So, that was old me. like last week was horrible and I am breaking last week was horrible and I am breaking last week was horrible and I am breaking free of that and and and sometimes you free of that and and and sometimes you free of that and and and sometimes you know you can preach even more know you can preach even more know you can preach even more passionately because you're like that passionately because you're like that passionately because you're like that you know by the grace of God that's not you know by the grace of God that's not you know by the grace of God that's not going to [clears throat] be something going to [clears throat] be something going to [clears throat] be something that you know derails me and everybody that you know derails me and everybody that you know derails me and everybody else and I'm I'm sover your pastor gets else and I'm I'm sover your pastor gets else and I'm I'm sover your pastor gets up and preaches every week is how I was up and preaches every week is how I was up and preaches every week is how I was doing it doing it doing it >> but what he's managing and I do believe >> but what he's managing and I do believe >> but what he's managing and I do believe there is a difference maybe it is there is a difference maybe it is there is a difference maybe it is acceptable he's working that out with acceptable he's working that out with acceptable he's working that out with But maybe his issues are not sexual sin.

But maybe his issues are not sexual sin. But maybe his issues are not sexual sin. Maybe he's not. And we know that sin is Maybe he's not. And we know that sin is Maybe he's not. And we know that sin is sin. Consequences are wildly different. sin. Consequences are wildly different. sin. Consequences are wildly different. So I do I don't believe it's okay for So I do I don't believe it's okay for So I do I don't believe it's okay for some pastors to be dealing with some some pastors to be dealing with some some pastors to be dealing with some things in the pulpit. I don't I think things in the pulpit. I don't I think things in the pulpit. I don't I think that's that's that's >> we should clarify the line, but if we do >> we should clarify the line, but if we do >> we should clarify the line, but if we do that, we're in really deep trouble that, we're in really deep trouble that, we're in really deep trouble >> because people are going to >> because people are going to >> because people are going to >> Who's got the clean hands? >> Who's got the clean hands? >> Who's got the clean hands? >> There aren't any. >> There aren't any. >> There aren't any. >> I know. So that's I compartmentalized so >> I know. So that's I compartmentalized so >> I know. So that's I compartmentalized so well in my life for my gain that when it well in my life for my gain that when it well in my life for my gain that when it came time to do it for my demise, it was came time to do it for my demise, it was came time to do it for my demise, it was easy cuz I could compartmentalize. I easy cuz I could compartmentalize. I easy cuz I could compartmentalize. I could lead a church, disciple people. Uh could lead a church, disciple people. Uh could lead a church, disciple people. Uh I I would I would remember one Sunday I I I would I would remember one Sunday I I I would I would remember one Sunday I I preached two services and I did two I preached two services and I did two I preached two services and I did two NBA chapels and then I did this thing at NBA chapels and then I did this thing at NBA chapels and then I did this thing at a park and then I met with a friend and a park and then I met with a friend and a park and then I met with a friend and then I preached three more. And you do then I preached three more. And you do then I preached three more. And you do that cuz you're able to that cuz you're able to that cuz you're able to compartmentalize. I'm here now and I'm compartmentalize. I'm here now and I'm compartmentalize. I'm here now and I'm here now and I'm here now. When you when here now and I'm here now. When you when here now and I'm here now. When you when you bring that matrix into your sin, you bring that matrix into your sin, you bring that matrix into your sin, it's like that that's not for this. This it's like that that's not for this. This it's like that that's not for this. This is that I'm able to really really So is that I'm able to really really So is that I'm able to really really So that's how I that's how I did that. I I that's how I that's how I did that. I I that's how I that's how I did that. I I totally cut off from it. I be like that totally cut off from it. I be like that totally cut off from it. I be like that never happened. Everyone's dealing with never happened. Everyone's dealing with never happened. Everyone's dealing with stuff just like me and and then you tell stuff just like me and and then you tell stuff just like me and and then you tell yourself other stories like the best yourself other stories like the best yourself other stories like the best thing I can do is just got this out thing I can do is just got this out thing I can do is just got this out because if I were to get honest, because if I were to get honest, because if I were to get honest, >> you know, it really mess with a lot of >> you know, it really mess with a lot of >> you know, it really mess with a lot of people's lives and that can't be God's people's lives and that can't be God's people's lives and that can't be God's will. So will. So will. So >> that's true.

>> that's true. >> that's true. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> I mean it's going to mess with a lot of >> I mean it's going to mess with a lot of >> I mean it's going to mess with a lot of people's lives. people's lives. people's lives. >> Oh my gosh. And and so you you >> Oh my gosh. And and so you you >> Oh my gosh. And and so you you compartmentalize. So my easy answer for compartmentalize. So my easy answer for compartmentalize. So my easy answer for people is people is people is >> um you know how how could you preach and >> um you know how how could you preach and >> um you know how how could you preach and do that? Well, it's the same way any of do that? Well, it's the same way any of do that? Well, it's the same way any of us live with brokenness. Um, and it us live with brokenness. Um, and it us live with brokenness. Um, and it doesn't mean it's the same. Like, I'm doesn't mean it's the same. Like, I'm doesn't mean it's the same. Like, I'm not But that's how you compartmentalize. not But that's how you compartmentalize. not But that's how you compartmentalize. Period. Period. Period. >> Did the celebrity culture cuz you took a >> Did the celebrity culture cuz you took a >> Did the celebrity culture cuz you took a lot of hits for that. lot of hits for that. lot of hits for that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Was that part of the unraveling? Did >> Was that part of the unraveling? Did >> Was that part of the unraveling? Did that add to the pressure or that add to the pressure or that add to the pressure or >> No, cuz I always thought those people >> No, cuz I always thought those people >> No, cuz I always thought those people were silly and I still do. were silly and I still do. were silly and I still do. >> Like we didn't buy that. There wasn't a >> Like we didn't buy that. There wasn't a >> Like we didn't buy that. There wasn't a celebrity culture. It's not true. celebrity culture. It's not true. celebrity culture. It's not true. >> Just not true. >> Just not true. >> Just not true. >> Tell me more. >> Tell me more. >> Tell me more. >> Well, who who decided that? So you take >> Well, who who decided that? So you take >> Well, who who decided that? So you take five views and then you do a story on it five views and then you do a story on it five views and then you do a story on it and that's the culture. I reject that on and that's the culture. I reject that on and that's the culture. I reject that on its face. You weren't there. You don't its face. You weren't there. You don't its face. You weren't there. You don't know. And even if someone was there and know. And even if someone was there and know. And even if someone was there and they think they know, I think they think they know, I think they think they know, I think differently. It was my church. I know. differently. It was my church. I know. differently. It was my church. I know. >> So there wasn't a celebrity culture at >> So there wasn't a celebrity culture at >> So there wasn't a celebrity culture at all. There just wasn't. And I often say all. There just wasn't. And I often say all. There just wasn't. And I often say people, can you define what you mean by people, can you define what you mean by people, can you define what you mean by that? So uh and so like when you think that? So uh and so like when you think that? So uh and so like when you think celebrity culture, what are you celebrity culture, what are you celebrity culture, what are you referring to? And I'll speak directly to referring to? And I'll speak directly to referring to? And I'll speak directly to it because I love you and trust you. But it because I love you and trust you. But it because I love you and trust you. But what do you what does that mean? I would what do you what does that mean? I would what do you what does that mean? I would say what I saw of it and say what I saw of it and say what I saw of it and >> for the record um I mean I was a lawyer >> for the record um I mean I was a lawyer >> for the record um I mean I was a lawyer before I did this right before I did this right before I did this right >> so I always have a soft spot >> so I always have a soft spot >> so I always have a soft spot >> for people who have everything and have >> for people who have everything and have >> for people who have everything and have nothing nothing nothing >> and I saw that in the legal financial >> and I saw that in the legal financial >> and I saw that in the legal financial world world world >> uh I don't know a lot of celebrities >> uh I don't know a lot of celebrities >> uh I don't know a lot of celebrities >> but I suspect from what I've seen and >> but I suspect from what I've seen and >> but I suspect from what I've seen and what I've written that that's a lot of

what I've written that that's a lot of what I've written that that's a lot of the story I've got everything the story I've got everything the story I've got everything >> and in the inside I'm dying >> and in the inside I'm dying >> and in the inside I'm dying >> dying. Yeah. So, I have a heart just so >> dying. Yeah. So, I have a heart just so >> dying. Yeah. So, I have a heart just so you know where I'm coming from you know where I'm coming from you know where I'm coming from >> people. Okay. So, you were talking about >> people. Okay. So, you were talking about >> people. Okay. So, you were talking about celebrity. I thought you were saying we celebrity. I thought you were saying we celebrity. I thought you were saying we had one in our church. had one in our church. had one in our church. >> Well, see, isn't this good to discuss >> Well, see, isn't this good to discuss >> Well, see, isn't this good to discuss it? Because we could jump into the it? Because we could jump into the it? Because we could jump into the comments and duke it out, buddy. comments and duke it out, buddy. comments and duke it out, buddy. >> And it's like, we didn't have a >> And it's like, we didn't have a >> And it's like, we didn't have a celebrity culture. Yes, you did. No, we celebrity culture. Yes, you did. No, we celebrity culture. Yes, you did. No, we didn't. We don't even know what we're didn't. We don't even know what we're didn't. We don't even know what we're talking about. talking about. talking about. >> We're talking about like all the famous >> We're talking about like all the famous >> We're talking about like all the famous people. Yeah. people. Yeah. people. Yeah. >> That you were interacting with. And I I >> That you were interacting with. And I I >> That you were interacting with. And I I when I read those articles when I read those articles when I read those articles transparently, people beat me up for it. transparently, people beat me up for it. transparently, people beat me up for it. I'm like, good. I'm like, good. I'm like, good. >> I'm glad you're beat up for that. Like >> I'm glad you're beat up for that. Like >> I'm glad you're beat up for that. Like that that fascinates me cuz all those that that fascinates me cuz all those that that fascinates me cuz all those people, but I don't people, but I don't people, but I don't >> the internet. >> the internet. >> the internet. >> It's unbelievable. Continue. >> It's unbelievable. Continue. >> It's unbelievable. Continue. >> But like when you're when you're >> But like when you're when you're >> But like when you're when you're bringing and I don't want to drop names, bringing and I don't want to drop names, bringing and I don't want to drop names, but you're bringing people everybody but you're bringing people everybody but you're bringing people everybody knew famous people, A-listers knew famous people, A-listers knew famous people, A-listers >> into your church. A lot of them have >> into your church. A lot of them have >> into your church. A lot of them have spiritual questions and I've had enough spiritual questions and I've had enough spiritual questions and I've had enough guests on this podcast. guests on this podcast. guests on this podcast. >> They do. >> They do. >> They do. >> That part of part of my ministry is I >> That part of part of my ministry is I >> That part of part of my ministry is I love having atheists on M love having atheists on M love having atheists on M >> cuz if I build a relationship with them, >> cuz if I build a relationship with them, >> cuz if I build a relationship with them, I don't know what God's going to do with I don't know what God's going to do with I don't know what God's going to do with it. I'm not trying to convert it. I'm not trying to convert it. I'm not trying to convert immediately.

immediately. immediately. >> But you know, you never know where God's >> But you know, you never know where God's >> But you know, you never know where God's going to take it. And they going to take it. And they going to take it. And they [clears throat] often get left alone. [clears throat] often get left alone. [clears throat] often get left alone. >> Nobody can talk to them. Nobody will >> Nobody can talk to them. Nobody will >> Nobody can talk to them. Nobody will tell them the truth. tell them the truth. tell them the truth. >> It's island. >> It's island. >> It's island. >> It's an island. >> It's an island. >> It's an island. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> That's what I mean by celebrity. I got >> That's what I mean by celebrity. I got >> That's what I mean by celebrity. I got you. So that that to me was easy money. you. So that that to me was easy money. you. So that that to me was easy money. It was like we we just did the same It was like we we just did the same It was like we we just did the same thing we always did. and and people thing we always did. and and people thing we always did. and and people deserve a chance to be led, to be loved, deserve a chance to be led, to be loved, deserve a chance to be led, to be loved, to be accepted, to be uh you know a part to be accepted, to be uh you know a part to be accepted, to be uh you know a part of a community. So for us, it was like of a community. So for us, it was like of a community. So for us, it was like what I found Car is interesting. A lot what I found Car is interesting. A lot what I found Car is interesting. A lot of people project how they would respond of people project how they would respond of people project how they would respond and don't know us. They'd be like, "It and don't know us. They'd be like, "It and don't know us. They'd be like, "It definitely got to your head." I'm going, definitely got to your head." I'm going, definitely got to your head." I'm going, "It would have got to your head. "It would have got to your head. "It would have got to your head. >> We were built for it. Didn't get to our >> We were built for it. Didn't get to our >> We were built for it. Didn't get to our head." Oh, it's like, and people, they head." Oh, it's like, and people, they head." Oh, it's like, and people, they don't do enough work to know that they don't do enough work to know that they don't do enough work to know that they expose themselves by their criticism. expose themselves by their criticism. expose themselves by their criticism. So, it's the same people who be like, So, it's the same people who be like, So, it's the same people who be like, "This guy wants a spotlight again." No, "This guy wants a spotlight again." No, "This guy wants a spotlight again." No, bro. A, I could build my own spotlight. bro. A, I could build my own spotlight. bro. A, I could build my own spotlight. Put it on me at any time and it would be Put it on me at any time and it would be Put it on me at any time and it would be better than your spotlight. A, not doing better than your spotlight. A, not doing better than your spotlight. A, not doing that. B, maybe you desperately want a that. B, maybe you desperately want a that. B, maybe you desperately want a spotlight and I've never got it. So, spotlight and I've never got it. So, spotlight and I've never got it. So, that's all you see.

that's all you see. that's all you see. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, but with celebrity culture for us, >> So, but with celebrity culture for us, >> So, but with celebrity culture for us, it was very it was it just made of it was very it was it just made of it was very it was it just made of course course course >> if you met them, you're going to try to >> if you met them, you're going to try to >> if you met them, you're going to try to build a relationship. build a relationship. build a relationship. >> Why would we not do that? like and a lot >> Why would we not do that? like and a lot >> Why would we not do that? like and a lot of people are are definitely too of people are are definitely too of people are are definitely too insecure to handle stuff like that. So insecure to handle stuff like that. So insecure to handle stuff like that. So they build theology around it. And the they build theology around it. And the they build theology around it. And the truth is truth is truth is >> um dealing with people who have more >> um dealing with people who have more >> um dealing with people who have more money, more influence, uh sometimes more money, more influence, uh sometimes more money, more influence, uh sometimes more knowledge than you, it threatens you. So knowledge than you, it threatens you. So knowledge than you, it threatens you. So you can easily ostracize and pretend you can easily ostracize and pretend you can easily ostracize and pretend they're more lost or they're they're more lost or they're they're more lost or they're unreachable. And then if someone else unreachable. And then if someone else unreachable. And then if someone else reaches them, that's a slight on you reaches them, that's a slight on you reaches them, that's a slight on you because you've written them off. So you because you've written them off. So you because you've written them off. So you have no choice but to criticize the have no choice but to criticize the have no choice but to criticize the person reaching them rather than look person reaching them rather than look person reaching them rather than look inside you and go, "What's up with you?" inside you and go, "What's up with you?" inside you and go, "What's up with you?" >> Yeah. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why >> Yeah. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why >> Yeah. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why aren't your doors open for that? aren't your doors open for that? aren't your doors open for that? >> So, to the other thing I wasn't asking >> So, to the other thing I wasn't asking >> So, to the other thing I wasn't asking about, but celebrity culture, that whole about, but celebrity culture, that whole about, but celebrity culture, that whole idea that you had a VIP row, all that idea that you had a VIP row, all that idea that you had a VIP row, all that stuff. What What are your thoughts on stuff. What What are your thoughts on stuff. What What are your thoughts on that? Look, that? Look, that? Look, >> dumb. I mean, we we did we we have seats >> dumb. I mean, we we did we we have seats >> dumb. I mean, we we did we we have seats like every other church. And what's like every other church. And what's like every other church. And what's funny, Carrie, honestly, is that I funny, Carrie, honestly, is that I funny, Carrie, honestly, is that I personally would save about 30 seats of personally would save about 30 seats of personally would save about 30 seats of service for my friends.

service for my friends. service for my friends. >> Don't apologize for it. If I own a >> Don't apologize for it. If I own a >> Don't apologize for it. If I own a restaurant, I'm saving a table. Hillong, restaurant, I'm saving a table. Hillong, restaurant, I'm saving a table. Hillong, New York City. I I preach my guts out New York City. I I preach my guts out New York City. I I preach my guts out every Sunday and I if I brought every Sunday and I if I brought every Sunday and I if I brought somebody, it's my church. I'm going to somebody, it's my church. I'm going to somebody, it's my church. I'm going to I'm going to save that seat. Deal with I'm going to save that seat. Deal with I'm going to save that seat. Deal with it. Why would that bother you? it. Why would that bother you? it. Why would that bother you? >> And >> And >> And >> and most of the time they were filled by >> and most of the time they were filled by >> and most of the time they were filled by non famous people. non famous people. non famous people. >> Nonf famous people. And so that that >> Nonf famous people. And so that that >> Nonf famous people. And so that that lowhanging fruit criticism, it's just lowhanging fruit criticism, it's just lowhanging fruit criticism, it's just it's not worth anybody's time because it's not worth anybody's time because it's not worth anybody's time because somebody has a beef about something that somebody has a beef about something that somebody has a beef about something that they're not being honest about. Why they're not being honest about. Why they're not being honest about. Why would it bother you if and people are would it bother you if and people are would it bother you if and people are like, "Well, you can't sit like you like, "Well, you can't sit like you like, "Well, you can't sit like you don't have any issue with the homeless don't have any issue with the homeless don't have any issue with the homeless people that sat in the front row. You people that sat in the front row. You people that sat in the front row. You don't ever talk about them. You only don't ever talk about them. You only don't ever talk about them. You only have issues. have issues. have issues. >> You had homeless people in the front row >> You had homeless people in the front row >> You had homeless people in the front row >> all the time. Those were those were the >> all the time. Those were those were the >> all the time. Those were those were the those were the seats of honor. those were the seats of honor. those were the seats of honor. >> Yes. All the time. But no one wants to >> Yes. All the time. But no one wants to >> Yes. All the time. But no one wants to talk about that. Uh because it would talk about that. Uh because it would talk about that. Uh because it would blow up your whole argument. blow up your whole argument. blow up your whole argument. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You can't save seats for anybody. Yes, >> You can't save seats for anybody. Yes, >> You can't save seats for anybody. Yes, we can. I had a friend who was in a we can. I had a friend who was in a we can. I had a friend who was in a wheelchair. Sat him in the front row so wheelchair. Sat him in the front row so wheelchair. Sat him in the front row so he could see better. Deal with it. Had a he could see better. Deal with it. Had a he could see better. Deal with it. Had a friend who's 7 foot2. Put him on the friend who's 7 foot2. Put him on the friend who's 7 foot2. Put him on the side in the back there and I put a side in the back there and I put a side in the back there and I put a security guard around him so you can't security guard around him so you can't security guard around him so you can't take a photo of him while he worships.

take a photo of him while he worships. take a photo of him while he worships. deal with it. Not a big deal. It is that deal with it. Not a big deal. It is that deal with it. Not a big deal. It is that simple. simple. simple. >> And I can go down the list. And so, can >> And I can go down the list. And so, can >> And I can go down the list. And so, can people take issue with churches people take issue with churches people take issue with churches shouldn't save seats? Good luck with shouldn't save seats? Good luck with shouldn't save seats? Good luck with that life you're living, bro. We're over that life you're living, bro. We're over that life you're living, bro. We're over here trying to fight life and death, and here trying to fight life and death, and here trying to fight life and death, and we're doing the best we can. And in our we're doing the best we can. And in our we're doing the best we can. And in our church, we had save seats like everybody church, we had save seats like everybody church, we had save seats like everybody else. It wasn't a thing. It just wasn't. else. It wasn't a thing. It just wasn't. else. It wasn't a thing. It just wasn't. Now, am I in control of every Now, am I in control of every Now, am I in control of every interaction that goes down? So, that interaction that goes down? So, that interaction that goes down? So, that seat coordinator, who's a beautiful seat coordinator, who's a beautiful seat coordinator, who's a beautiful volunteer, is she having the right volunteer, is she having the right volunteer, is she having the right conversations? I don't know, Carrie. conversations? I don't know, Carrie. conversations? I don't know, Carrie. Probably not. Could she have said Probably not. Could she have said Probably not. Could she have said something? Could that man have said something? Could that man have said something? Could that man have said something that led people to believe our something that led people to believe our something that led people to believe our church? Like that probably happened all church? Like that probably happened all church? Like that probably happened all the time like it does in every church in the time like it does in every church in the time like it does in every church in America. So we can't the parking guy who America. So we can't the parking guy who America. So we can't the parking guy who says you better come back next week or says you better come back next week or says you better come back next week or God doesn't love you anymore. That God doesn't love you anymore. That God doesn't love you anymore. That pastor doesn't know that was said. pastor doesn't know that was said. pastor doesn't know that was said. >> That probably happens. >> That probably happens. >> That probably happens. >> Now maximize that by a billion if your >> Now maximize that by a billion if your >> Now maximize that by a billion if your church is and there's going to be gaps church is and there's going to be gaps church is and there's going to be gaps like that. So when all of our stuff kind like that. So when all of our stuff kind like that. So when all of our stuff kind of was burnt down, I thought it was so of was burnt down, I thought it was so of was burnt down, I thought it was so funny. I watched it from afar going if funny. I watched it from afar going if funny. I watched it from afar going if you wherever your church is at in that you wherever your church is at in that you wherever your church is at in that moment when the pastor, you know, moment when the pastor, you know, moment when the pastor, you know, explodes his life like I did. That's explodes his life like I did. That's explodes his life like I did. That's what people get to pick apart because what people get to pick apart because what people get to pick apart because that's the end of that shot. So now that's the end of that shot. So now that's the end of that shot. So now people get to look at angles that they people get to look at angles that they people get to look at angles that they used to love, but now they have time to used to love, but now they have time to used to love, but now they have time to pick it apart from the other way. And I pick it apart from the other way. And I pick it apart from the other way. And I I watch people do that with our I watch people do that with our I watch people do that with our organization and I'm like, "Okay, cool.

organization and I'm like, "Okay, cool. organization and I'm like, "Okay, cool. Last week you were in the front row of Last week you were in the front row of Last week you were in the front row of Hillsong Conference taking copious Hillsong Conference taking copious Hillsong Conference taking copious notes. notes. notes. this week. We're the worst church ever this week. We're the worst church ever this week. We're the worst church ever and nothing we've ever done matters and and nothing we've ever done matters and and nothing we've ever done matters and our system's faulty. our system's faulty. our system's faulty. >> How do you respond to your critics? >> How do you respond to your critics? >> How do you respond to your critics? >> Thank you. Thank you. Their presence >> Thank you. Thank you. Their presence >> Thank you. Thank you. Their presence sometimes aligns mine. sometimes aligns mine. sometimes aligns mine. >> And if I I I can find out a lot about my >> And if I I I can find out a lot about my >> And if I I I can find out a lot about my life by who criticizes me. And I believe life by who criticizes me. And I believe life by who criticizes me. And I believe that in Hillsong, New York City. I that in Hillsong, New York City. I that in Hillsong, New York City. I believe it today in Tulsa, Oklahoma. believe it today in Tulsa, Oklahoma. believe it today in Tulsa, Oklahoma. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If there's some people who aren't >> If there's some people who aren't >> If there's some people who aren't criticizing me, God's got to take me criticizing me, God's got to take me criticizing me, God's got to take me home. M home. M home. M >> A, it means I'm not a problem anymore. >> A, it means I'm not a problem anymore. >> A, it means I'm not a problem anymore. >> B, I hope you don't like what I do. >> B, I hope you don't like what I do. >> B, I hope you don't like what I do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because if you did, I wouldn't be living >> Because if you did, I wouldn't be living >> Because if you did, I wouldn't be living the life God's called me to live. So I the life God's called me to live. So I the life God's called me to live. So I now I hold critics with grace rather now I hold critics with grace rather now I hold critics with grace rather than passive aggressive resentment than passive aggressive resentment than passive aggressive resentment >> because I always check to see if they're >> because I always check to see if they're >> because I always check to see if they're right first. That's a new pattern. right first. That's a new pattern. right first. That's a new pattern. >> Where where have they been right? >> Where where have they been right? >> Where where have they been right? >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, give me a criticism and I'll I'll ask give me a criticism and I'll I'll ask give me a criticism and I'll I'll ask you a couple.

you a couple. you a couple. >> Um, Um, >> Um, Um, >> Um, Um, okay. Let me think about it. okay. Let me think about it. okay. Let me think about it. >> I think >> I think >> I think >> you just wanted to create the biggest >> you just wanted to create the biggest >> you just wanted to create the biggest church in New York City and it was all a church in New York City and it was all a church in New York City and it was all a plan and uh you were hiding this stuff plan and uh you were hiding this stuff plan and uh you were hiding this stuff for years. for years. for years. >> Not true. Not true. We never set out to >> Not true. Not true. We never set out to >> Not true. Not true. We never set out to have a big church. We set out to reach have a big church. We set out to reach have a big church. We set out to reach every single person in front of us. every single person in front of us. every single person in front of us. Period. So that's off the board. Period. So that's off the board. Period. So that's off the board. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um hiding the stuff all along. Not true. >> Um hiding the stuff all along. Not true. >> Um hiding the stuff all along. Not true. I wasn't. Give me another one. This is great. Give me another one. This is great. >> Um, okay. Uh, toxic culture. >> Um, okay. Uh, toxic culture. >> Um, okay. Uh, toxic culture. >> Not true. Human culture, toxic mixes, >> Not true. Human culture, toxic mixes, >> Not true. Human culture, toxic mixes, because that's going to happen anywhere because that's going to happen anywhere because that's going to happen anywhere you go at all times. you go at all times. you go at all times. >> So, let's break that one down. If you >> So, let's break that one down. If you >> So, let's break that one down. If you were starting a church today, which were starting a church today, which were starting a church today, which you're not, you're starting an you're not, you're starting an you're not, you're starting an organization, a company, you name it. It organization, a company, you name it. It organization, a company, you name it. It could be a coffee shop. could be a coffee shop. could be a coffee shop. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What did you do at Hill Song that you >> What did you do at Hill Song that you >> What did you do at Hill Song that you would not repeat in terms of culture? would not repeat in terms of culture? would not repeat in terms of culture? and what would you want to start to make and what would you want to start to make and what would you want to start to make sure it's healthy? And for those of you sure it's healthy? And for those of you sure it's healthy? And for those of you listening to this podcast, I'm just listening to this podcast, I'm just listening to this podcast, I'm just going to interject for a minute.

going to interject for a minute. going to interject for a minute. >> I mean, you you've you've said a lot of >> I mean, you you've you've said a lot of >> I mean, you you've you've said a lot of things that can be construed as defense. things that can be construed as defense. things that can be construed as defense. Not defensive, but but answering your Not defensive, but but answering your Not defensive, but but answering your critics, critics, critics, >> okay, >> okay, >> okay, >> in this conversation, >> in this conversation, >> in this conversation, >> I listen to dozens of episodes of Lights >> I listen to dozens of episodes of Lights >> I listen to dozens of episodes of Lights On. On. On. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You see the work in Lights On. If I >> You see the work in Lights On. If I >> You see the work in Lights On. If I didn't see the work in Lights On, we're didn't see the work in Lights On, we're didn't see the work in Lights On, we're not having this conversation. not having this conversation. not having this conversation. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So, I want people to go defenses. I I >> So, I want people to go defenses. I I >> So, I want people to go defenses. I I think this is me giving answers. I I think this is me giving answers. I I think this is me giving answers. I I don't want I don't need to defend it. don't want I don't need to defend it. don't want I don't need to defend it. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> But I I I'm happy to answer it. So, >> But I I I'm happy to answer it. So, >> But I I I'm happy to answer it. So, >> no. No, that's great. >> no. No, that's great. >> no. No, that's great. >> Please, upon post, cut that. So, it >> Please, upon post, cut that. So, it >> Please, upon post, cut that. So, it makes I don't want this. makes I don't want this. makes I don't want this. I'm happy to I'm happy to I'm happy to >> um speak to it. It's a safe place. You >> um speak to it. It's a safe place. You >> um speak to it. It's a safe place. You have no agenda other than clarity. So, I have no agenda other than clarity. So, I have no agenda other than clarity. So, I don't ever when people Here's my normal don't ever when people Here's my normal don't ever when people Here's my normal answer for critics. Thank you for answer for critics. Thank you for answer for critics. Thank you for sharing. sharing. sharing. >> I'm not interested in convincing you of >> I'm not interested in convincing you of >> I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. anything. anything. >> Yeah. But if you're going to ask me >> Yeah. But if you're going to ask me >> Yeah. But if you're going to ask me about it with the the with the platform about it with the the with the platform about it with the the with the platform that you have for the leaders that watch that you have for the leaders that watch that you have for the leaders that watch this, I want to answer it so they can this, I want to answer it so they can this, I want to answer it so they can glean and learn and take what they want. glean and learn and take what they want. glean and learn and take what they want. So I'm it's a it's a joy.

So I'm it's a it's a joy. So I'm it's a it's a joy. >> So for me, looking back 15 years ago, >> So for me, looking back 15 years ago, >> So for me, looking back 15 years ago, >> there were parts of my culture that the >> there were parts of my culture that the >> there were parts of my culture that the culture that I helped shape and steward culture that I helped shape and steward culture that I helped shape and steward >> that were unhealthy. >> that were unhealthy. >> that were unhealthy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I was a workaholic. I had high demands. >> I was a workaholic. I had high demands. >> I was a workaholic. I had high demands. >> Guilty. >> Guilty. >> Guilty. >> Yeah. I I was texting people on Saturday >> Yeah. I I was texting people on Saturday >> Yeah. I I was texting people on Saturday mornings. I still remember this probably mornings. I still remember this probably mornings. I still remember this probably >> Lord Jesus. >> Lord Jesus. >> Lord Jesus. >> Oh gosh. >> Oh gosh. >> Oh gosh. >> It's pushing 20 years ago. >> It's pushing 20 years ago. >> It's pushing 20 years ago. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> People talk about old Carrie and new >> People talk about old Carrie and new >> People talk about old Carrie and new Carrie. Carrie. Carrie. >> And old Carrie would I I remember >> And old Carrie would I I remember >> And old Carrie would I I remember texting our XP at that time who had come texting our XP at that time who had come texting our XP at that time who had come over from Pepsi on a Saturday morning over from Pepsi on a Saturday morning over from Pepsi on a Saturday morning because we had just planned the church. because we had just planned the church. because we had just planned the church. I had all kinds of ideas I had all kinds of ideas I had all kinds of ideas >> and I'm like, "Hey, can we?" And I >> and I'm like, "Hey, can we?" And I >> and I'm like, "Hey, can we?" And I remember she texted me back and she remember she texted me back and she remember she texted me back and she said, said, said, >> "Do we always have to talk about church >> "Do we always have to talk about church >> "Do we always have to talk about church on a Saturday? Can we not just have a on a Saturday? Can we not just have a on a Saturday? Can we not just have a day off?" day off?" day off?" >> Okay. And I'm like, >> Okay. And I'm like, >> Okay. And I'm like, >> I I do not do that um >> I I do not do that um >> I I do not do that um >> anymore unless it's an absolute >> anymore unless it's an absolute >> anymore unless it's an absolute emergency. I will call on a Saturday. We emergency. I will call on a Saturday. We emergency. I will call on a Saturday. We have a closed laptop policy and my team have a closed laptop policy and my team have a closed laptop policy and my team hustles. I struggle. Let me just I got hustles. I struggle. Let me just I got hustles. I struggle. Let me just I got to interject.

to interject. to interject. There are so many things I would do There are so many things I would do There are so many things I would do different. different. different. >> Well, let's go there. F. >> Well, let's go there. F. >> Well, let's go there. F. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So slow. I will go so slow. Oh, you So slow. I will go so slow. Oh, you So slow. I will go so slow. Oh, you would now go so slow and everything. You would now go so slow and everything. You would now go so slow and everything. You tell me what you're going to do, though. tell me what you're going to do, though. tell me what you're going to do, though. >> When your your church grows by a >> When your your church grows by a >> When your your church grows by a thousand in a day, 3,000 in a month, thousand in a day, 3,000 in a month, thousand in a day, 3,000 in a month, you've got a staff of 10, you've got 70 you've got a staff of 10, you've got 70 you've got a staff of 10, you've got 70 volunteers, and you've got this thing volunteers, and you've got this thing volunteers, and you've got this thing going on here. Um, what do you do? You going on here. Um, what do you do? You going on here. Um, what do you do? You good? You run that. You good? You good? You run that. You good? You good? You run that. You good? You believe that Jesus was real? That's believe that Jesus was real? That's believe that Jesus was real? That's enough. Go. enough. Go. enough. Go. >> Good. Yeah. Yeah. >> Good. Yeah. Yeah. >> Good. Yeah. Yeah. >> Hey, my amazing um you know teammate >> Hey, my amazing um you know teammate >> Hey, my amazing um you know teammate over here who's who's preaching your over here who's who's preaching your over here who's who's preaching your marriage good? Okay. I I call me later. marriage good? Okay. I I call me later. marriage good? Okay. I I call me later. Gospel, you good? How much are you How Gospel, you good? How much are you How Gospel, you good? How much are you How much are we paying you? H how do you much are we paying you? H how do you much are we paying you? H how do you live on that? Ah, go. That part I would live on that? Ah, go. That part I would live on that? Ah, go. That part I would freaking change. But I'm also 47. Mhm.

freaking change. But I'm also 47. Mhm. freaking change. But I'm also 47. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> I don't look at life the same. I don't >> I don't look at life the same. I don't >> I don't look at life the same. I don't care about those things anymore. So, I care about those things anymore. So, I care about those things anymore. So, I would tell the youth pastor, I would would tell the youth pastor, I would would tell the youth pastor, I would have said to gut it out. Like I look have said to gut it out. Like I look have said to gut it out. Like I look back on and I've been able to make back on and I've been able to make back on and I've been able to make amends where I can with some of my team amends where I can with some of my team amends where I can with some of my team and that's on their terms, not mine. So, and that's on their terms, not mine. So, and that's on their terms, not mine. So, I'm always available and over the five I'm always available and over the five I'm always available and over the five years, people have trickled across the years, people have trickled across the years, people have trickled across the bow to have whatever they need to have. bow to have whatever they need to have. bow to have whatever they need to have. And it's my I don't want to go. [snorts] go. [snorts] It was very tough for me to even get to It was very tough for me to even get to It was very tough for me to even get to a place to even be able to look some of a place to even be able to look some of a place to even be able to look some of these people in the eye because they these people in the eye because they these people in the eye because they gave everything they had and I let them gave everything they had and I let them gave everything they had and I let them down then in those moments I left them down then in those moments I left them down then in those moments I left them vulnerable and I and I now look at that vulnerable and I and I now look at that vulnerable and I and I now look at that in a place where I can in a place where I can in a place where I can >> use it to make me better rather than >> use it to make me better rather than >> use it to make me better rather than make me sad. And that's where I say it's make me sad. And that's where I say it's make me sad. And that's where I say it's hard. Like I even sense it now. Like hard. Like I even sense it now. Like hard. Like I even sense it now. Like it's just um but yeah, so to look at it's just um but yeah, so to look at it's just um but yeah, so to look at some of these people, the way that I led some of these people, the way that I led some of these people, the way that I led u was the best I knew how. I just would u was the best I knew how. I just would u was the best I knew how. I just would lead differently now and I would take lead differently now and I would take lead differently now and I would take more time. I would ask more questions. I more time. I would ask more questions. I more time. I would ask more questions. I would um would um would um I would just go slower, Carrie. That's I would just go slower, Carrie. That's I would just go slower, Carrie. That's the best word. Slow, slow, slow. And I the best word. Slow, slow, slow. And I the best word. Slow, slow, slow. And I wasn't getting pressure from Brian.

wasn't getting pressure from Brian. wasn't getting pressure from Brian. There was no there was I'm not I was There was no there was I'm not I was There was no there was I'm not I was never I hated that narrative. was the never I hated that narrative. was the never I hated that narrative. was the dumbest one that I was a pawn in this dumbest one that I was a pawn in this dumbest one that I was a pawn in this big scheme. Brian wasn't a chess player. big scheme. Brian wasn't a chess player. big scheme. Brian wasn't a chess player. >> He wasn't. Brian is was just like when >> He wasn't. Brian is was just like when >> He wasn't. Brian is was just like when people talk about the guy at the top of people talk about the guy at the top of people talk about the guy at the top of the totem pole, the totem pole, the totem pole, >> you know, me and Laura have been part of >> you know, me and Laura have been part of >> you know, me and Laura have been part of this church our whole Laura her whole this church our whole Laura her whole this church our whole Laura her whole life. Me through Steve Kelly, that was life. Me through Steve Kelly, that was life. Me through Steve Kelly, that was my entry and then through working for my entry and then through working for my entry and then through working for Brian personally, Hillsong Church is all Brian personally, Hillsong Church is all Brian personally, Hillsong Church is all I've ever known. The goal has was never I've ever known. The goal has was never I've ever known. The goal has was never world domination. That's a lie. I've world domination. That's a lie. I've world domination. That's a lie. I've seen some of these stupid things and I'm seen some of these stupid things and I'm seen some of these stupid things and I'm like they make it this big nefarious like they make it this big nefarious like they make it this big nefarious thing and they the way they cut stuff up thing and they the way they cut stuff up thing and they the way they cut stuff up and I'm like you have no idea man that's and I'm like you have no idea man that's and I'm like you have no idea man that's not it's not the truth. I would tell you not it's not the truth. I would tell you not it's not the truth. I would tell you car I got nothing to lose. I got no car I got nothing to lose. I got no car I got nothing to lose. I got no affiliation with Hillong Church. None. affiliation with Hillong Church. None. affiliation with Hillong Church. None. Zero. I don't care. I'll call it out Zero. I don't care. I'll call it out Zero. I don't care. I'll call it out when I see it. I'm telling you it's a when I see it. I'm telling you it's a when I see it. I'm telling you it's a church that just God just breathed on church that just God just breathed on church that just God just breathed on and it grew. But world domination? No, and it grew. But world domination? No, and it grew. But world domination? No, it never was. But all that to say, the it never was. But all that to say, the it never was. But all that to say, the culture of um culture of um culture of um of speed and power and growth, of speed and power and growth, of speed and power and growth, um I would shift all that now.

um I would shift all that now. um I would shift all that now. >> You'd tap the brakes a little more. >> You'd tap the brakes a little more. >> You'd tap the brakes a little more. >> I wouldn't even start that car up. >> I wouldn't even start that car up. >> I wouldn't even start that car up. >> Mm- We're taking mules. >> Mm- We're taking mules. >> Mm- We're taking mules. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> No, no brakes to pump. That's not going >> No, no brakes to pump. That's not going >> No, no brakes to pump. That's not going to go well. So, from where I sit now, to go well. So, from where I sit now, to go well. So, from where I sit now, >> we're going to go we're going to we're >> we're going to go we're going to we're >> we're going to go we're going to we're going to go slower. going to go slower. going to go slower. Everything's too valuable. The Everything's too valuable. The Everything's too valuable. The repercussions are too big if we get some repercussions are too big if we get some repercussions are too big if we get some of this stuff wrong. So, we're going to of this stuff wrong. So, we're going to of this stuff wrong. So, we're going to go slower. We're going to do one service go slower. We're going to do one service go slower. We're going to do one service for a long time and we're going to say for a long time and we're going to say for a long time and we're going to say no have to deal with the lines. no have to deal with the lines. no have to deal with the lines. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Because what good is it if you get We're >> Because what good is it if you get We're >> Because what good is it if you get We're case case case it burnt down, Gary. It burnt down. So it burnt down, Gary. It burnt down. So it burnt down, Gary. It burnt down. So yeah, a lot of good, but at the end of yeah, a lot of good, but at the end of yeah, a lot of good, but at the end of the day, like how do you how do you the day, like how do you how do you the day, like how do you how do you build something that that that goes build something that that that goes build something that that that goes through it? Well, um, so that's one through it? Well, um, so that's one through it? Well, um, so that's one thing I know for sure I would do thing I know for sure I would do thing I know for sure I would do differently is I go slower. But I wasn't differently is I go slower. But I wasn't differently is I go slower. But I wasn't slow, Gary. I was cooking.

slow, Gary. I was cooking. slow, Gary. I was cooking. My personality, it was perfect for New My personality, it was perfect for New My personality, it was perfect for New York City. York City. York City. >> Everything fit me perfectly well. I >> Everything fit me perfectly well. I >> Everything fit me perfectly well. I loved everything about that culture. the loved everything about that culture. the loved everything about that culture. the speed of it, the rawness of it, the speed of it, the rawness of it, the speed of it, the rawness of it, the grittiness of it, the the um contrarian grittiness of it, the the um contrarian grittiness of it, the the um contrarian nature of an entire city. I am a nature of an entire city. I am a nature of an entire city. I am a contrarian. I had to shift that because contrarian. I had to shift that because contrarian. I had to shift that because it didn't serve me well. And it was one it didn't serve me well. And it was one it didn't serve me well. And it was one of the big changes I've had to make over of the big changes I've had to make over of the big changes I've had to make over the past five years. But I loved it. But the past five years. But I loved it. But the past five years. But I loved it. But it really was a beautiful segue for it really was a beautiful segue for it really was a beautiful segue for somebody to keep running because there somebody to keep running because there somebody to keep running because there was always something for me to do. was always something for me to do. was always something for me to do. >> Good stuff. >> Good stuff. >> Good stuff. >> Do you think >> Do you think >> Do you think it's kind of a dumb question, but I'm it's kind of a dumb question, but I'm it's kind of a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. going to ask it anyway. going to ask it anyway. Do you think that kind of speed is Do you think that kind of speed is Do you think that kind of speed is simply inhuman simply inhuman simply inhuman >> that had another leader done it they >> that had another leader done it they >> that had another leader done it they could have aced it or it just kills you? could have aced it or it just kills you? could have aced it or it just kills you? >> I think it kills everybody. I don't know >> I think it kills everybody. I don't know >> I think it kills everybody. I don't know anybody who who has that pace and does anybody who who has that pace and does anybody who who has that pace and does well has a life that I want. well has a life that I want. well has a life that I want. >> And I started to know I started to >> And I started to know I started to >> And I started to know I started to realize that even not in a judgmental realize that even not in a judgmental realize that even not in a judgmental way of Brian, a compassionate way of way of Brian, a compassionate way of way of Brian, a compassionate way of this guy's going before us and he's gone this guy's going before us and he's gone this guy's going before us and he's gone through some heavy heavy fights.

through some heavy heavy fights. through some heavy heavy fights. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And he's tired and he's going through a >> And he's tired and he's going through a >> And he's tired and he's going through a lot. Let me protect my pastor. Let me do lot. Let me protect my pastor. Let me do lot. Let me protect my pastor. Let me do what I can to hold him up. But I don't what I can to hold him up. But I don't what I can to hold him up. But I don't know if [clears throat] I want to repeat know if [clears throat] I want to repeat know if [clears throat] I want to repeat some of these patterns because when I'm some of these patterns because when I'm some of these patterns because when I'm 70, 70, 70, >> when I'm 75, when I'm 80, I want to be >> when I'm 75, when I'm 80, I want to be >> when I'm 75, when I'm 80, I want to be laughing. I want to be I want to be laughing. I want to be I want to be laughing. I want to be I want to be making fun of young guys. I want to be making fun of young guys. I want to be making fun of young guys. I want to be like skipping church and, you know, like skipping church and, you know, like skipping church and, you know, beaming in from some satellite somewhere beaming in from some satellite somewhere beaming in from some satellite somewhere cuz I'm out, you know, I I want to have cuz I'm out, you know, I I want to have cuz I'm out, you know, I I want to have joy increasing in increasing measure. joy increasing in increasing measure. joy increasing in increasing measure. That's what I want. And that life ahm That's what I want. And that life ahm That's what I want. And that life ahm >> it doesn't for me, for my money. Mm- I'm >> it doesn't for me, for my money. Mm- I'm >> it doesn't for me, for my money. Mm- I'm I'm so freaking grateful. I see guys, my I'm so freaking grateful. I see guys, my I'm so freaking grateful. I see guys, my old peers, old peers, old peers, >> and I just got nothing but compassion. >> and I just got nothing but compassion. >> and I just got nothing but compassion. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Across the board. Some of them are doing >> Across the board. Some of them are doing >> Across the board. Some of them are doing great. Other ones are they're dying great. Other ones are they're dying great. Other ones are they're dying >> a slow death. And you can't tell me that >> a slow death. And you can't tell me that >> a slow death. And you can't tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I I don't know what I'm talking about. I I don't know what I'm talking about. I do. And I look at them and I don't judge do. And I look at them and I don't judge do. And I look at them and I don't judge them, them, them, >> but I go I know the feeling of not being >> but I go I know the feeling of not being >> but I go I know the feeling of not being able to get out of the game that you able to get out of the game that you able to get out of the game that you hate. hate. hate. >> And that that that is part of the >> And that that that is part of the >> And that that that is part of the project I want to work on at some point. project I want to work on at some point. project I want to work on at some point. >> Wow.

>> Wow. >> Wow. How do you get out of the game that you How do you get out of the game that you How do you get out of the game that you hate and maybe build a better game? hate and maybe build a better game? hate and maybe build a better game? >> We need a better game and we need to >> We need a better game and we need to >> We need a better game and we need to reach people. We need to grow. reach people. We need to grow. reach people. We need to grow. >> But there is something unhealthy in the >> But there is something unhealthy in the >> But there is something unhealthy in the rapidity in the scale and very few rapidity in the scale and very few rapidity in the scale and very few leaders have been able to navigate it leaders have been able to navigate it leaders have been able to navigate it with integrity. with integrity. with integrity. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> So you went to rehab. >> So you went to rehab. >> So you went to rehab. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. Oh yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. Oh yeah. [laughter] >> You went to rehab. >> You went to rehab. >> You went to rehab. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> what happened? >> what happened? >> what happened? Why' I go or what happened at rehab? Why' I go or what happened at rehab? Why' I go or what happened at rehab? >> Yeah. What I went to? Okay. Why'd you >> Yeah. What I went to? Okay. Why'd you >> Yeah. What I went to? Okay. Why'd you go? go? go? >> So, so here's the here's here's the >> So, so here's the here's here's the >> So, so here's the here's here's the succession. The news comes out. I tell succession. The news comes out. I tell succession. The news comes out. I tell Laura um our life as we knew it Laura um our life as we knew it Laura um our life as we knew it completely ends. completely ends. completely ends. And uh Bob Goff, Dino Rizzo, And uh Bob Goff, Dino Rizzo, And uh Bob Goff, Dino Rizzo, by the grace of God definitely saved my life. I mean, it was definitely saved my life. I mean, it was dark. It was dark. I mean, when that dark. It was dark. I mean, when that dark. It was dark. I mean, when that stuff happened the first two days, I had stuff happened the first two days, I had stuff happened the first two days, I had a couple different plans.

a couple different plans. a couple different plans. >> What were your plans? >> What were your plans? >> What were your plans? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. >> Yeah. And that's not, you know, a >> Yeah. And that's not, you know, a >> Yeah. And that's not, you know, a sympathy play. I'm just letting you sympathy play. I'm just letting you sympathy play. I'm just letting you know. I I told you on the phone. I'm I'm know. I I told you on the phone. I'm I'm know. I I told you on the phone. I'm I'm call it like it is when we talk. I owe call it like it is when we talk. I owe call it like it is when we talk. I owe you that. Um but it was it was bad. like you that. Um but it was it was bad. like you that. Um but it was it was bad. like I was I was finding ways to close some I was I was finding ways to close some I was I was finding ways to close some things down and um I was so so so um things down and um I was so so so um things down and um I was so so so um distraught and Dino never never walked distraught and Dino never never walked distraught and Dino never never walked away Bob Goff who I'd known not on this away Bob Goff who I'd known not on this away Bob Goff who I'd known not on this level I got a call from this guy and I I level I got a call from this guy and I I level I got a call from this guy and I I knew knew Bob but like to know somebody knew knew Bob but like to know somebody knew knew Bob but like to know somebody in your valley it's a different it's a in your valley it's a different it's a in your valley it's a different it's a different experience and he just said different experience and he just said different experience and he just said hey we're going to get you we're going hey we're going to get you we're going hey we're going to get you we're going to get you to a place that's going to to get you to a place that's going to to get you to a place that's going to help you and uh you know you're I'm help you and uh you know you're I'm help you and uh you know you're I'm going to get in this car and I'm going going to get in this car and I'm going going to get in this car and I'm going to walk you through call me when you to walk you through call me when you to walk you through call me when you land. And and and I went to the first land. And and and I went to the first land. And and and I went to the first place I went to was on-site which was a place I went to was on-site which was a place I went to was on-site which was a place that just really helped me place that just really helped me place that just really helped me >> um >> um >> um a not want to kill myself and it's like I'm talking about a and it's like I'm talking about a different person. So I feel compassion different person. So I feel compassion different person. So I feel compassion for that part of my story. I don't feel for that part of my story. I don't feel for that part of my story. I don't feel like that now. Um, like that now. Um, like that now. Um, but I I I went there and and and I just but I I I went there and and and I just but I I I went there and and and I just said, "Oh, maybe maybe there's some hope said, "Oh, maybe maybe there's some hope said, "Oh, maybe maybe there's some hope for me, you know, maybe there's some for me, you know, maybe there's some for me, you know, maybe there's some hope." Like, I left there so encouraged hope." Like, I left there so encouraged hope." Like, I left there so encouraged and had no idea of the fallout to come and had no idea of the fallout to come and had no idea of the fallout to come at all. But, man, I definitely went at all. But, man, I definitely went at all. But, man, I definitely went there and I was like, I'm not I'm not there and I was like, I'm not I'm not there and I was like, I'm not I'm not lost, you know? I'm not I'm not a I'm lost, you know? I'm not I'm not a I'm lost, you know? I'm not I'm not a I'm not, you know, because so many things go

not, you know, because so many things go not, you know, because so many things go through your head, Carrie, like, how through your head, Carrie, like, how through your head, Carrie, like, how could I do this? Like, could I do this? Like, could I do this? Like, >> how could I risk this? How did I how did >> how could I risk this? How did I how did >> how could I risk this? How did I how did I do this? over and over and over and I do this? over and over and over and I do this? over and over and over and over and over and over. If something over and over and over. If something over and over and over. If something doesn't stop you, you will take your doesn't stop you, you will take your doesn't stop you, you will take your life. life. life. >> Didn't know where to go with that cuz >> Didn't know where to go with that cuz >> Didn't know where to go with that cuz there [snorts] no answer. There's no there [snorts] no answer. There's no there [snorts] no answer. There's no good answer. Like how could I do that? good answer. Like how could I do that? good answer. Like how could I do that? >> I actually did that. >> I actually did that. >> I actually did that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like I'm not being I didn't do >> Right. Like I'm not being I didn't do >> Right. Like I'm not being I didn't do everything but I did that. everything but I did that. everything but I did that. >> Yeah. I did this. I I I destroyed this >> Yeah. I did this. I I I destroyed this >> Yeah. I did this. I I I destroyed this beautiful thing God gave me. Destroyed beautiful thing God gave me. Destroyed beautiful thing God gave me. Destroyed it. And I'm embarrassed and I'm it. And I'm embarrassed and I'm it. And I'm embarrassed and I'm humiliated. I'm sad and I'm I'm humiliated. I'm sad and I'm I'm humiliated. I'm sad and I'm I'm regretful. and and then you just go off regretful. and and then you just go off regretful. and and then you just go off a cliff and on-site stopped that cliff a cliff and on-site stopped that cliff a cliff and on-site stopped that cliff for me and uh for me and uh for me and uh >> it's helped so many people >> it's helped so many people >> it's helped so many people >> and I left there and and Lord and I were >> and I left there and and Lord and I were >> and I left there and and Lord and I were in California and um as hopeful as I was in California and um as hopeful as I was in California and um as hopeful as I was I could feel the tidal waves of these I could feel the tidal waves of these I could feel the tidal waves of these patterns happening again patterns happening again patterns happening again matter of time. matter of time. matter of time. >> Oh really? Oh, Carrie. Abs. >> Oh really? Oh, Carrie. Abs. >> Oh really? Oh, Carrie. Abs. >> You did you did the intensive and you're >> You did you did the intensive and you're >> You did you did the intensive and you're like, "Oh, wait." like, "Oh, wait." like, "Oh, wait." >> We get out of New York, we go to >> We get out of New York, we go to >> We get out of New York, we go to California, try to get our bearings. And California, try to get our bearings. And California, try to get our bearings. And I was like, I was like, I was like, >> with all of this, I want to do the same >> with all of this, I want to do the same >> with all of this, I want to do the same things.

things. things. That's That's That's >> all the instincts were there. >> all the instincts were there. >> all the instincts were there. >> Every single pattern, if not if not >> Every single pattern, if not if not >> Every single pattern, if not if not exacerbated. exacerbated. exacerbated. And Lori came back from onsite And Lori came back from onsite And Lori came back from onsite and uh it was my first time alone with and uh it was my first time alone with and uh it was my first time alone with the with the kids. Um, and she came back the with the kids. Um, and she came back the with the kids. Um, and she came back and she was a she literally was a new and she was a she literally was a new and she was a she literally was a new version of herself. She said, "Hey, I version of herself. She said, "Hey, I version of herself. She said, "Hey, I want you to know a couple things. Like, want you to know a couple things. Like, want you to know a couple things. Like, I'm gonna grow. I'm gonna move on with I'm gonna grow. I'm gonna move on with I'm gonna grow. I'm gonna move on with my life. I'm not going to divorce you or my life. I'm not going to divorce you or my life. I'm not going to divorce you or leave you, but I will never wait here leave you, but I will never wait here leave you, but I will never wait here ever. I'm going and I want you to know ever. I'm going and I want you to know ever. I'm going and I want you to know that I love you and but I'm I'm not I'm that I love you and but I'm I'm not I'm that I love you and but I'm I'm not I'm not putting myself in the position I was not putting myself in the position I was not putting myself in the position I was in ever again." No. in ever again." No. in ever again." No. >> She's not going to be a victim. And I >> She's not going to be a victim. And I >> She's not going to be a victim. And I said, "Okay, and I need you to know this said, "Okay, and I need you to know this said, "Okay, and I need you to know this is not a good weekend and I broke your is not a good weekend and I broke your is not a good weekend and I broke your trust again." So, um, it wasn't like a extreme violation, but it wasn't like a extreme violation, but in this brand new template we have, I in this brand new template we have, I in this brand new template we have, I did I I broke your trust again did I I broke your trust again did I I broke your trust again >> and and I said, "I got to get some help.

>> and and I said, "I got to get some help. >> and and I said, "I got to get some help. I don't know what to do. like I I got to I don't know what to do. like I I got to I don't know what to do. like I I got to go from onsite to I got to get you know go from onsite to I got to get you know go from onsite to I got to get you know and uh you know you know I got to I got and uh you know you know I got to I got and uh you know you know I got to I got to go somewhere I don't know where to go to go somewhere I don't know where to go to go somewhere I don't know where to go you know I never thought this I don't you know I never thought this I don't you know I never thought this I don't I've never given two craps about this I've never given two craps about this I've never given two craps about this side of life I've never I don't know side of life I've never I don't know side of life I've never I don't know what pastors do when they destroy their what pastors do when they destroy their what pastors do when they destroy their lives and he said I know a place you lives and he said I know a place you lives and he said I know a place you know Dino with his cinjun draw I got I know Dino with his cinjun draw I got I know Dino with his cinjun draw I got I got a place you know and then how much got a place you know and then how much got a place you know and then how much Dino I I I lost we're going to make it Dino I I I lost we're going to make it Dino I I I lost we're going to make it work and somehow I ended up you know, work and somehow I ended up you know, work and somehow I ended up you know, gentle path in Arizona. gentle path in Arizona. gentle path in Arizona. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And uh and it was pivotal for me. It's >> And uh and it was pivotal for me. It's >> And uh and it was pivotal for me. It's not everything, but rehab is a place to not everything, but rehab is a place to not everything, but rehab is a place to really found out I was a I had a low, really found out I was a I had a low, really found out I was a I had a low, you know, I had a depression you know, I had a depression you know, I had a depression staple of my life. I had a drug staple of my life. I had a drug staple of my life. I had a drug addiction that I was not aware of in any addiction that I was not aware of in any addiction that I was not aware of in any way, which is hilarious. But way, which is hilarious. But way, which is hilarious. But >> was it a prescription drug? >> was it a prescription drug? >> was it a prescription drug? >> Yeah. So, I'll tell you exactly what it >> Yeah. So, I'll tell you exactly what it >> Yeah. So, I'll tell you exactly what it was. So, I I've been on Rolin since I was. So, I I've been on Rolin since I was. So, I I've been on Rolin since I was 14 years old. was 14 years old. was 14 years old. >> Go to college, you know, whatever. And >> Go to college, you know, whatever. And >> Go to college, you know, whatever. And then you and then I had a a breakdown then you and then I had a a breakdown then you and then I had a a breakdown moment in in Virginia Beach where I just moment in in Virginia Beach where I just moment in in Virginia Beach where I just wasn't managing stuff and that's when wasn't managing stuff and that's when wasn't managing stuff and that's when someone gave me um it wasn't aderall someone gave me um it wasn't aderall someone gave me um it wasn't aderall something close to that. And then I something close to that. And then I something close to that. And then I started taking Adderall which was a started taking Adderall which was a started taking Adderall which was a beautiful help for me for a long time.

beautiful help for me for a long time. beautiful help for me for a long time. >> Really was um but towards the end of my >> Really was um but towards the end of my >> Really was um but towards the end of my horrible cycle and I started to I horrible cycle and I started to I horrible cycle and I started to I started to just like up my own dose uh started to just like up my own dose uh started to just like up my own dose uh find other ways to get it. And it was find other ways to get it. And it was find other ways to get it. And it was but I was consistent with my addiction but I was consistent with my addiction but I was consistent with my addiction though. It wasn't like I was I would though. It wasn't like I was I would though. It wasn't like I was I would take the same amount every day without take the same amount every day without take the same amount every day without fail and it was twice as much as I was fail and it was twice as much as I was fail and it was twice as much as I was prescribed. This makes you insane when prescribed. This makes you insane when prescribed. This makes you insane when you look at it on a chemical chart. you look at it on a chemical chart. you look at it on a chemical chart. Crack heroin's here. Aderall's here. Our Crack heroin's here. Aderall's here. Our Crack heroin's here. Aderall's here. Our government loves this. Government government loves this. Government government loves this. Government penalizes this. Why would that be? But penalizes this. Why would that be? But penalizes this. Why would that be? But and so I go see, you know, I I go to and so I go see, you know, I I go to and so I go see, you know, I I go to this rehab and I'm like, I'm here cuz this rehab and I'm like, I'm here cuz this rehab and I'm like, I'm here cuz I've got sexual problems, you know, I've got sexual problems, you know, I've got sexual problems, you know, sexual sin. And also, where are my meds sexual sin. And also, where are my meds sexual sin. And also, where are my meds at? I'm asking. And the lady was like, at? I'm asking. And the lady was like, at? I'm asking. And the lady was like, "Yeah, about that. You won't be getting "Yeah, about that. You won't be getting "Yeah, about that. You won't be getting your medication here." I said, "Well, your medication here." I said, "Well, your medication here." I said, "Well, that's stupid because I need that that's stupid because I need that that's stupid because I need that medication. How am I going to learn medication. How am I going to learn medication. How am I going to learn anything here and I want my medication?" anything here and I want my medication?" anything here and I want my medication?" She said, "You're not going to get it She said, "You're not going to get it She said, "You're not going to get it here." And I said, "I will get it here here." And I said, "I will get it here here." And I said, "I will get it here or I'll leave." She said, "You are free or I'll leave." She said, "You are free or I'll leave." She said, "You are free to go at any time." And I said, "Watch to go at any time." And I said, "Watch to go at any time." And I said, "Watch me leave." And I went and packed my bags me leave." And I went and packed my bags me leave." And I went and packed my bags and started walking into the desert of and started walking into the desert of and started walking into the desert of Wikcinberg, Arizona, and just dropped my Wikcinberg, Arizona, and just dropped my Wikcinberg, Arizona, and just dropped my bags and turn around. The four of these bags and turn around. The four of these bags and turn around. The four of these staff guys are sitting there. I guess staff guys are sitting there. I guess staff guys are sitting there. I guess that's not uncommon. [laughter] that's not uncommon. [laughter] that's not uncommon. [laughter] It's a beautiful thing having a rehab in It's a beautiful thing having a rehab in It's a beautiful thing having a rehab in the middle of the desert.

the middle of the desert. the middle of the desert. >> Took me a while before the Uber gets >> Took me a while before the Uber gets >> Took me a while before the Uber gets >> and uh >> and uh >> and uh >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> I took my bags back, threw them in >> I took my bags back, threw them in >> I took my bags back, threw them in there, and uh and the lady said, "You there, and uh and the lady said, "You there, and uh and the lady said, "You know, it's pretty clear you have a drug know, it's pretty clear you have a drug know, it's pretty clear you have a drug addiction as well." And I was like, "You addiction as well." And I was like, "You addiction as well." And I was like, "You think And it just dawned on me and think And it just dawned on me and think And it just dawned on me and people can, you know, judge that, laugh people can, you know, judge that, laugh people can, you know, judge that, laugh at that. I don't care. I'm telling you, at that. I don't care. I'm telling you, at that. I don't care. I'm telling you, I didn't think that's what it was. I didn't think that's what it was. I didn't think that's what it was. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so that was the first big thing. >> And so that was the first big thing. >> And so that was the first big thing. Laura says that's the thing that really Laura says that's the thing that really Laura says that's the thing that really gave her the most hope and belief that gave her the most hope and belief that gave her the most hope and belief that maybe I was serious about changing maybe I was serious about changing maybe I was serious about changing >> because she hated the impact of that >> because she hated the impact of that >> because she hated the impact of that drug on me. Hated it. It made me drug on me. Hated it. It made me drug on me. Hated it. It made me extraordinarily focused. very very it extraordinarily focused. very very it extraordinarily focused. very very it helped my ADHD but man was it volatile helped my ADHD but man was it volatile helped my ADHD but man was it volatile my moods my and so she was always my moods my and so she was always my moods my and so she was always pointing to it but when I came back on pointing to it but when I came back on pointing to it but when I came back on my own said by the way I remember my own said by the way I remember my own said by the way I remember writing her a letter writing her a letter writing her a letter >> she said that was something that God >> she said that was something that God >> she said that was something that God used to give her hope that maybe this used to give her hope that maybe this used to give her hope that maybe this could change cuz I was never letting could change cuz I was never letting could change cuz I was never letting that go so I went to rehab and found out that go so I went to rehab and found out that go so I went to rehab and found out I was you know a drug I was you know a drug I was you know a drug >> you're never going to let your drugs go >> you're never going to let your drugs go >> you're never going to let your drugs go >> no way I didn't even think it was a >> no way I didn't even think it was a >> no way I didn't even think it was a problem like I need that problem like I need that problem like I need that >> right >> right >> right >> and then >> and then >> and then >> cuz it was prescription >> cuz it was prescription >> cuz it was prescription >> absolutely and so uh start you weaning >> absolutely and so uh start you weaning >> absolutely and so uh start you weaning off that and um and then you get in off that and um and then you get in off that and um and then you get in there and you find out about your sexual there and you find out about your sexual there and you find out about your sexual patterns that you're not insane, you're patterns that you're not insane, you're patterns that you're not insane, you're pretty common and that sucks because pretty common and that sucks because pretty common and that sucks because it's like you feel like you know it's like you feel like you know it's like you feel like you know terminal uniqueness. No one knows my terminal uniqueness. No one knows my terminal uniqueness. No one knows my problem. You go to rehab, everybody's problem. You go to rehab, everybody's problem. You go to rehab, everybody's got your problem.

got your problem. got your problem. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Nobody's different. >> Nobody's different. >> Nobody's different. >> You're not unique. >> You're not unique. >> You're not unique. >> No, you're not tell you're just Well, no >> No, you're not tell you're just Well, no >> No, you're not tell you're just Well, no one will get it. Everybody gets it. No one will get it. Everybody gets it. No one will get it. Everybody gets it. No one's No one's unique. Like these one's No one's unique. Like these one's No one's unique. Like these problems are the problems of humanity problems are the problems of humanity problems are the problems of humanity and sin. And [snorts] then I start to and sin. And [snorts] then I start to and sin. And [snorts] then I start to get the tools what it's going to take. get the tools what it's going to take. get the tools what it's going to take. And I was like, I don't know. I don't And I was like, I don't know. I don't And I was like, I don't know. I don't know if I want to do that kind of work know if I want to do that kind of work know if I want to do that kind of work because that's ridiculous. Like I had to because that's ridiculous. Like I had to because that's ridiculous. Like I had to relearn how to think again. relearn how to think again. relearn how to think again. >> And I'm a thought leader. [laughter] >> And I'm a thought leader. [laughter] >> And I'm a thought leader. [laughter] I'm a I'm a preacher. I got some good I'm a I'm a preacher. I got some good I'm a I'm a preacher. I got some good fruit on the board here. I know what I'm fruit on the board here. I know what I'm fruit on the board here. I know what I'm doing. doing. doing. >> I got to rethink I got to rethink how I >> I got to rethink I got to rethink how I >> I got to rethink I got to rethink how I think and I have to live this life. And think and I have to live this life. And think and I have to live this life. And they I remember one of my therapists they I remember one of my therapists they I remember one of my therapists saying, "If you make it through the se saying, "If you make it through the se saying, "If you make it through the se the season of boredom, you'll remain the season of boredom, you'll remain the season of boredom, you'll remain sober. If you don't, you'll be back here sober. If you don't, you'll be back here sober. If you don't, you'll be back here or worse." or worse." or worse." >> Really? And I know what she meant about >> Really? And I know what she meant about >> Really? And I know what she meant about five months later when I was like, "Hey, five months later when I was like, "Hey, five months later when I was like, "Hey, I I hate my life. There's no dopamine. I I hate my life. There's no dopamine. I I hate my life. There's no dopamine. There's no excitement. There's no risk." There's no excitement. There's no risk." There's no excitement. There's no risk." Because I found out there Because I found out there Because I found out there >> sex was excitement for you. The drugs >> sex was excitement for you. The drugs >> sex was excitement for you. The drugs >> risk, excitement, escape, validation, >> risk, excitement, escape, validation, >> risk, excitement, escape, validation, connection.

connection. connection. uh you know pseudo intimacy, you name uh you know pseudo intimacy, you name uh you know pseudo intimacy, you name it. All that's off the board because it. All that's off the board because it. All that's off the board because it's never People always love the end it's never People always love the end it's never People always love the end result of a scandal that includes sex. result of a scandal that includes sex. result of a scandal that includes sex. >> That's not the story. That's the >> That's not the story. That's the >> That's not the story. That's the headline. The story is the giant pattern headline. The story is the giant pattern headline. The story is the giant pattern that led to it. So I could look at that led to it. So I could look at that led to it. So I could look at anybody in the headlines right now. I anybody in the headlines right now. I anybody in the headlines right now. I don't look at them the way everybody don't look at them the way everybody don't look at them the way everybody else is. else is. else is. >> How do you see it? >> How do you see it? >> How do you see it? >> I see a brokenness. So when you see the >> I see a brokenness. So when you see the >> I see a brokenness. So when you see the guy who's in prison for these crazy guy who's in prison for these crazy guy who's in prison for these crazy things, fair, all this stuff's horrible, things, fair, all this stuff's horrible, things, fair, all this stuff's horrible, but I don't he's not different than me. but I don't he's not different than me. but I don't he's not different than me. He's not different than people judging He's not different than people judging He's not different than people judging him. him. him. >> He went through some stuff. It did not >> He went through some stuff. It did not >> He went through some stuff. It did not get fixed. Hurt people hurt people. And get fixed. Hurt people hurt people. And get fixed. Hurt people hurt people. And yeah, he's got to pay for his crimes, yeah, he's got to pay for his crimes, yeah, he's got to pay for his crimes, but he's not he's not a worse human but he's not he's not a worse human but he's not he's not a worse human being. His his dysfunction just looks being. His his dysfunction just looks being. His his dysfunction just looks different than yours. So, I learn I different than yours. So, I learn I different than yours. So, I learn I learned to hold things like that in learned to hold things like that in learned to hold things like that in places like this rehab because I'm like, places like this rehab because I'm like, places like this rehab because I'm like, "Oh, man. This is uh" So, yeah, I think "Oh, man. This is uh" So, yeah, I think "Oh, man. This is uh" So, yeah, I think that was a huge moment for me to go, that was a huge moment for me to go, that was a huge moment for me to go, that's a lot of work. Uh, I remember that's a lot of work. Uh, I remember that's a lot of work. Uh, I remember getting out. One of the first getting out. One of the first getting out. One of the first conversations I have with my therapist conversations I have with my therapist conversations I have with my therapist was like, "Hey, I I might need to at was like, "Hey, I I might need to at was like, "Hey, I I might need to at least talk to Laura about open marriage least talk to Laura about open marriage least talk to Laura about open marriage because she won't go for it. But I don't because she won't go for it. But I don't because she won't go for it. But I don't know if I could ever like I don't I know if I could ever like I don't I know if I could ever like I don't I don't know if I could I don't know if I don't know if I could I don't know if I don't know if I could I don't know if I could change and become this new person.

could change and become this new person. could change and become this new person. I I guess I don't know what it's like to I I guess I don't know what it's like to I I guess I don't know what it's like to really be faithful because I was really be faithful because I was really be faithful because I was cheating in my mind way before I was cheating in my mind way before I was cheating in my mind way before I was cheating in my body, cheating on my cheating in my body, cheating on my cheating in my body, cheating on my patterns way before I was cheating on my patterns way before I was cheating on my patterns way before I was cheating on my family. And these patterns are gonna family. And these patterns are gonna family. And these patterns are gonna take a long time. And I don't want to take a long time. And I don't want to take a long time. And I don't want to risk hurting my wife again. I don't want risk hurting my wife again. I don't want risk hurting my wife again. I don't want to risk anything." So, and my therapist to risk anything." So, and my therapist to risk anything." So, and my therapist said, "Cool. Here's what we're going to said, "Cool. Here's what we're going to said, "Cool. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to make a decision to do. We're going to make a decision to do. We're going to make a decision to not make big life change decisions in not make big life change decisions in not make big life change decisions in this state. So, a year from now, bring this state. So, a year from now, bring this state. So, a year from now, bring that I'll bring that open marriage back that I'll bring that open marriage back that I'll bring that open marriage back up and we can talk about it." up and we can talk about it." up and we can talk about it." >> Was that open marriage for you or for >> Was that open marriage for you or for >> Was that open marriage for you or for her? her? her? >> I was just going, "What do I do?" >> I was just going, "What do I do?" >> I was just going, "What do I do?" >> Yeah. You're like >> Yeah. You're like >> Yeah. You're like this. Are this. Are this. Are >> you kidding me? Like I don't I once you >> you kidding me? Like I don't I once you >> you kidding me? Like I don't I once you see how bad it is inside you, it's see how bad it is inside you, it's see how bad it is inside you, it's either horrifically scary either horrifically scary either horrifically scary [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] or hopeful. And then for me it was still or hopeful. And then for me it was still or hopeful. And then for me it was still scary. It's it's transition to like scary. It's it's transition to like scary. It's it's transition to like powerful tangible hope. But then it was powerful tangible hope. But then it was powerful tangible hope. But then it was like I think I might make it but I'm like I think I might make it but I'm like I think I might make it but I'm definitely not going to risk anything. definitely not going to risk anything. definitely not going to risk anything. >> And that's after 5 months of rehab. >> And that's after 5 months of rehab. >> And that's after 5 months of rehab. >> Yeah. Rehab was um you know the the the >> Yeah. Rehab was um you know the the the >> Yeah. Rehab was um you know the the the 45 days. Okay. And this is like a month 45 days. Okay. And this is like a month 45 days. Okay. And this is like a month and a half after that trying to get back and a half after that trying to get back and a half after that trying to get back reaclimated. And I'm like, so a year reaclimated. And I'm like, so a year reaclimated. And I'm like, so a year does go by and she said, "By the way, do does go by and she said, "By the way, do does go by and she said, "By the way, do you want to talk about marriage?" I was you want to talk about marriage?" I was you want to talk about marriage?" I was like, "Oh, like, "Oh, like, "Oh, >> I'm I'm sorry I ever said that." No. But >> I'm I'm sorry I ever said that." No. But >> I'm I'm sorry I ever said that." No. But it was part of my process it was part of my process it was part of my process >> because of course I don't want I was >> because of course I don't want I was >> because of course I don't want I was making I was thinking about making a making I was thinking about making a making I was thinking about making a decision from the most broken part of decision from the most broken part of decision from the most broken part of who I am.

who I am. who I am. >> And thank God I had a woman in front of >> And thank God I had a woman in front of >> And thank God I had a woman in front of me who was not going to allow that. me who was not going to allow that. me who was not going to allow that. >> What have been some keys to because I've >> What have been some keys to because I've >> What have been some keys to because I've I've again I've listened to I've again I've listened to I've again I've listened to >> Laura. I've heard her story. I've heard >> Laura. I've heard her story. I've heard >> Laura. I've heard her story. I've heard you with your counselor. you with your counselor. you with your counselor. >> There's there's years under this >> There's there's years under this >> There's there's years under this 90minute, two-hour conversation. Yeah. 90minute, two-hour conversation. Yeah. 90minute, two-hour conversation. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> What has made the marriage between you >> What has made the marriage between you >> What has made the marriage between you and Laura work and made it healthy maybe and Laura work and made it healthy maybe and Laura work and made it healthy maybe in a way it never had been pre- crash? in a way it never had been pre- crash? in a way it never had been pre- crash? We both are Jesus followers. So, this We both are Jesus followers. So, this We both are Jesus followers. So, this conversation begins and ends with the conversation begins and ends with the conversation begins and ends with the grace of God. Period. And so if you have grace of God. Period. And so if you have grace of God. Period. And so if you have an atheist listener or someone who an atheist listener or someone who an atheist listener or someone who adheres to a different faith, cool. On adheres to a different faith, cool. On adheres to a different faith, cool. On this one, you're just going to take a this one, you're just going to take a this one, you're just going to take a second because I we're not here, Carrie, second because I we're not here, Carrie, second because I we're not here, Carrie, on our own doing or power. Yeah. on our own doing or power. Yeah. on our own doing or power. Yeah. >> There's no explanation for it. There's >> There's no explanation for it. There's >> There's no explanation for it. There's no we're not working harder than other no we're not working harder than other no we're not working harder than other couples. We're not like couples. We're not like couples. We're not like >> God's grace is has really shown up for >> God's grace is has really shown up for >> God's grace is has really shown up for us, you know, and given us the ability us, you know, and given us the ability us, you know, and given us the ability to stick with it. Like the the the to stick with it. Like the the the to stick with it. Like the the the biggest thing is we just keep we've just biggest thing is we just keep we've just biggest thing is we just keep we've just kept going.

kept going. kept going. >> Yeah. in every stage like not being able >> Yeah. in every stage like not being able >> Yeah. in every stage like not being able to talk to each other look at each other to talk to each other look at each other to talk to each other look at each other but we're we're walking and um the big but we're we're walking and um the big but we're we're walking and um the big thing I point to from our story from our thing I point to from our story from our thing I point to from our story from our experience not true for everybody but we experience not true for everybody but we experience not true for everybody but we did zero couples counseling zero not a did zero couples counseling zero not a did zero couples counseling zero not a one one one >> h >> h >> h >> not [clears throat] one >> not [clears throat] one >> not [clears throat] one >> just individual >> just individual >> just individual >> because I was taught a different >> because I was taught a different >> because I was taught a different framework with that and it made complete framework with that and it made complete framework with that and it made complete sense to me like when I got to rehab sense to me like when I got to rehab sense to me like when I got to rehab they said we do not care about your they said we do not care about your they said we do not care about your marriage nobody in here can talk about marriage nobody in here can talk about marriage nobody in here can talk about your marriage it's stupid you can change your marriage it's stupid you can change your marriage it's stupid you can change behavior behavior and keep your marriage behavior behavior and keep your marriage behavior behavior and keep your marriage and become and still be the same person. and become and still be the same person. and become and still be the same person. You cannot become a new person and have You cannot become a new person and have You cannot become a new person and have the same marriage. Impossible. the same marriage. Impossible. the same marriage. Impossible. >> If you become a new person, your >> If you become a new person, your >> If you become a new person, your marriage will be a byproduct of that. marriage will be a byproduct of that. marriage will be a byproduct of that. So, we're not worrying about your stupid So, we're not worrying about your stupid So, we're not worrying about your stupid marriage that you wrecked. Fix your life marriage that you wrecked. Fix your life marriage that you wrecked. Fix your life and then tell me what kind of marriage and then tell me what kind of marriage and then tell me what kind of marriage you're going to have. you're going to have. you're going to have. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Lord got the same advice. So, we're on >> Lord got the same advice. So, we're on >> Lord got the same advice. So, we're on two different tracks looking over at two different tracks looking over at two different tracks looking over at each other, working, and then when you each other, working, and then when you each other, working, and then when you finally do start coming together in some finally do start coming together in some finally do start coming together in some ways, it's very powerful. And so our ways, it's very powerful. And so our ways, it's very powerful. And so our road has been individual but together in road has been individual but together in road has been individual but together in that and and we'll go couples counseling that and and we'll go couples counseling that and and we'll go couples counseling now here and there. Yeah. Uh but it's now here and there. Yeah. Uh but it's now here and there. Yeah. Uh but it's just for fun. It's like this is a just for fun. It's like this is a just for fun. It's like this is a constant question we both have. Let's constant question we both have. Let's constant question we both have. Let's talk to Alex about it. But it's not like talk to Alex about it. But it's not like talk to Alex about it. But it's not like our bedrock because our bedrock because our bedrock because >> same way accountability you So let me >> same way accountability you So let me >> same way accountability you So let me get this straight. You're not honest get this straight. You're not honest get this straight. You're not honest with your wife by yourself, but you're with your wife by yourself, but you're with your wife by yourself, but you're going to go sit in a marriage counseling going to go sit in a marriage counseling going to go sit in a marriage counseling thing and be honest with and it does thing and be honest with and it does thing and be honest with and it does work for people. That's why I already work for people. That's why I already work for people. That's why I already couch it. So if some person takes that couch it. So if some person takes that couch it. So if some person takes that one thing and does what they'll do, just one thing and does what they'll do, just one thing and does what they'll do, just know for those of you who listen the know for those of you who listen the know for those of you who listen the whole conversation, it's great. I love

whole conversation, it's great. I love whole conversation, it's great. I love marriage counseling for some people. For marriage counseling for some people. For marriage counseling for some people. For us, man, it really pushed us forward us, man, it really pushed us forward us, man, it really pushed us forward doing our individual work. So that that doing our individual work. So that that doing our individual work. So that that that's a a very clear hallmark that I that's a a very clear hallmark that I that's a a very clear hallmark that I can point to and say that's that's been can point to and say that's that's been can point to and say that's that's been a huge key for us. a huge key for us. a huge key for us. >> When your world gets turned upside down >> When your world gets turned upside down >> When your world gets turned upside down like yours did, did you ever think about like yours did, did you ever think about like yours did, did you ever think about deconstructing? like just walking away deconstructing? like just walking away deconstructing? like just walking away from Christianity, the faith. from Christianity, the faith. from Christianity, the faith. >> No, no. Because even then, like I I I >> No, no. Because even then, like I I I >> No, no. Because even then, like I I I would I would love to believe that I'm a would I would love to believe that I'm a would I would love to believe that I'm a pretty progressive thinker and I never pretty progressive thinker and I never pretty progressive thinker and I never understood the deconstruction thing. I understood the deconstruction thing. I understood the deconstruction thing. I always had grace for it, but Jesus had always had grace for it, but Jesus had always had grace for it, but Jesus had nothing to do with my life [laughter] nothing to do with my life [laughter] nothing to do with my life [laughter] part. part. part. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> The local church had nothing to do with >> The local church had nothing to do with >> The local church had nothing to do with me destroying that part of my life. me destroying that part of my life. me destroying that part of my life. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> So I there's I I I would do things >> So I there's I I I would do things >> So I there's I I I would do things differently, but I never deconstructed differently, but I never deconstructed differently, but I never deconstructed my bedrock in Jesus. And that's why we my bedrock in Jesus. And that's why we my bedrock in Jesus. And that's why we were always good pastors because we Hey, were always good pastors because we Hey, were always good pastors because we Hey, do do not get married to this church. We do do not get married to this church. We do do not get married to this church. We will fail you if we haven't yet. If you will fail you if we haven't yet. If you will fail you if we haven't yet. If you don't know Jesus, this is going to be a don't know Jesus, this is going to be a don't know Jesus, this is going to be a very short walk.

very short walk. very short walk. >> He's the one. He's the conduit. He's the >> He's the one. He's the conduit. He's the >> He's the one. He's the conduit. He's the connection point. And then you can connection point. And then you can connection point. And then you can handle church a lot better. That was handle church a lot better. That was handle church a lot better. That was always our our framework. So that didn't always our our framework. So that didn't always our our framework. So that didn't change once I lost everything I knew. change once I lost everything I knew. change once I lost everything I knew. >> Uh I had a different relationship with >> Uh I had a different relationship with >> Uh I had a different relationship with Jesus begin that day though. Jesus begin that day though. Jesus begin that day though. >> How did it change take your time? >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> I felt like um for the first time I was like a regular for the first time I was like a regular follower of Jesus because I realized follower of Jesus because I realized follower of Jesus because I realized you know pretty much from day one I was you know pretty much from day one I was you know pretty much from day one I was leading people and that impacts how you leading people and that impacts how you leading people and that impacts how you walk. It it does. It did me. It doesn't walk. It it does. It did me. It doesn't walk. It it does. It did me. It doesn't maybe other people, but for the first maybe other people, but for the first maybe other people, but for the first time as a broken 41-year-old man, I'm time as a broken 41-year-old man, I'm time as a broken 41-year-old man, I'm going, going, going, >> "Huh, >> "Huh, >> "Huh, >> I got I got time to work some of this >> I got I got time to work some of this >> I got I got time to work some of this stuff out. Let me just let me get to stuff out. Let me just let me get to stuff out. Let me just let me get to know Jesus from this place in my life." know Jesus from this place in my life." know Jesus from this place in my life." And I'm so grateful for it because it's And I'm so grateful for it because it's And I'm so grateful for it because it's it's my favorite thing of my new life it's my favorite thing of my new life it's my favorite thing of my new life [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> is my my my this chapter with Jesus has >> is my my my this chapter with Jesus has >> is my my my this chapter with Jesus has been really special to me been really special to me been really special to me because I got nothing to offer.

because I got nothing to offer. because I got nothing to offer. And then you realize, oh, I never had And then you realize, oh, I never had And then you realize, oh, I never had anything to offer. [laughter] anything to offer. [laughter] anything to offer. [laughter] >> Yeah. If you were redoing your spiritual >> Yeah. If you were redoing your spiritual >> Yeah. If you were redoing your spiritual walk from the time of your conversion, walk from the time of your conversion, walk from the time of your conversion, >> knowing what you know now, because you >> knowing what you know now, because you >> knowing what you know now, because you know, faith is a byproduct of ministry know, faith is a byproduct of ministry know, faith is a byproduct of ministry in too many cases. in too many cases. in too many cases. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah, for sure. >> And I've been a decade out of the lead >> And I've been a decade out of the lead >> And I've been a decade out of the lead pastor role now, and I always had Oh, pastor role now, and I always had Oh, pastor role now, and I always had Oh, >> congratulations. >> congratulations. >> congratulations. >> Well, thanks. I always had a I'm going >> Well, thanks. I always had a I'm going >> Well, thanks. I always had a I'm going to read through the Bible because I to read through the Bible because I to read through the Bible because I don't want to keep cheating for Sunday don't want to keep cheating for Sunday don't want to keep cheating for Sunday kind of thing. And I'm still doing that kind of thing. And I'm still doing that kind of thing. And I'm still doing that like all these years later. like all these years later. like all these years later. >> But you know, it it is different. I >> But you know, it it is different. I >> But you know, it it is different. I would say my relationship with God, would say my relationship with God, would say my relationship with God, it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't >> wasn't false by any stretch, >> wasn't false by any stretch, >> wasn't false by any stretch, >> but it's richer now. I think in part >> but it's richer now. I think in part >> but it's richer now. I think in part because I was able to disentangle because I was able to disentangle because I was able to disentangle >> the Sunday to Sunday from the who I am >> the Sunday to Sunday from the who I am >> the Sunday to Sunday from the who I am on Wednesday. on Wednesday. on Wednesday. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I don't know if if you were redoing >> And I don't know if if you were redoing >> And I don't know if if you were redoing it, what would you do differently in it, what would you do differently in it, what would you do differently in your spiritual life?

your spiritual life? your spiritual life? >> It's a great question. I I I'll say this >> It's a great question. I I I'll say this >> It's a great question. I I I'll say this first. I'm grateful for the whole first. I'm grateful for the whole first. I'm grateful for the whole journey because it led me here today in journey because it led me here today in journey because it led me here today in this version. So this version. So this version. So >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> I I I I >> I I I I >> I I I I totally I believe that regrets a wasted totally I believe that regrets a wasted totally I believe that regrets a wasted emotion. And I tell people that all the emotion. And I tell people that all the emotion. And I tell people that all the time, but I can reflect and I go, "Okay, time, but I can reflect and I go, "Okay, time, but I can reflect and I go, "Okay, for instance, I've talked to some some for instance, I've talked to some some for instance, I've talked to some some big church headers about this." And part big church headers about this." And part big church headers about this." And part of my life right now is this like it's a of my life right now is this like it's a of my life right now is this like it's a joy. But I meet with with some pastors joy. But I meet with with some pastors joy. But I meet with with some pastors who are on the verge of who are on the verge of who are on the verge of >> explosion, growth, great, whatever. And >> explosion, growth, great, whatever. And >> explosion, growth, great, whatever. And I'm able to say what I'm going to say I'm able to say what I'm going to say I'm able to say what I'm going to say now, which is now, which is now, which is maybe the new frontier looks like, cool, maybe the new frontier looks like, cool, maybe the new frontier looks like, cool, you want to plant a church. All right, you want to plant a church. All right, you want to plant a church. All right, we got this thing. It's going to take we got this thing. It's going to take we got this thing. It's going to take you about three years. Um, but here's you about three years. Um, but here's you about three years. Um, but here's what it's going to look like and then what it's going to look like and then what it's going to look like and then we'll talk in 3 years because the damage we'll talk in 3 years because the damage we'll talk in 3 years because the damage done done done >> with situations like mine is so severe >> with situations like mine is so severe >> with situations like mine is so severe that let's take some more time and make that let's take some more time and make that let's take some more time and make sure that the young guys coming through, sure that the young guys coming through, sure that the young guys coming through, the young girls coming through that are the young girls coming through that are the young girls coming through that are awesome and they got potential and awesome and they got potential and awesome and they got potential and they're charismatic and they got they're charismatic and they got they're charismatic and they got leadership. Let's teach them some tools leadership. Let's teach them some tools leadership. Let's teach them some tools that most people only learn like me post that most people only learn like me post that most people only learn like me post destruction. What if they get those destruction. What if they get those destruction. What if they get those tools early? So now I mean I have my tools early? So now I mean I have my tools early? So now I mean I have my hate my I make my money with my my hate my I make my money with my my hate my I make my money with my my daughter's friends and my son's friends daughter's friends and my son's friends daughter's friends and my son's friends cuz I'm like you put a 15 year old in cuz I'm like you put a 15 year old in cuz I'm like you put a 15 year old in front of me I'm going to teach them front of me I'm going to teach them front of me I'm going to teach them right now about what it means to think right now about what it means to think right now about what it means to think differently differently differently >> and you can and you just you see these >> and you can and you just you see these >> and you can and you just you see these people rise like my daughters are people rise like my daughters are people rise like my daughters are they're going through their own they're going through their own they're going through their own beautiful lifestyle like but the way

beautiful lifestyle like but the way beautiful lifestyle like but the way they think they think they think >> is [clears throat] >> is [clears throat] >> is [clears throat] incredible. I just had no idea. So incredible. I just had no idea. So incredible. I just had no idea. So >> what's different about how you teaching >> what's different about how you teaching >> what's different about how you teaching them to think? them to think? them to think? >> I did. It's so heavily identity >> I did. It's so heavily identity >> I did. It's so heavily identity generative thinking based that it's I generative thinking based that it's I generative thinking based that it's I don't even want to give away all the don't even want to give away all the don't even want to give away all the goods here Carrie. goods here Carrie. goods here Carrie. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. But sort of >> Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. But sort of >> Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. But sort of your identity meaning your identity meaning your identity meaning >> I I think I'll say this the biggest myth >> I I think I'll say this the biggest myth >> I I think I'll say this the biggest myth in modern evangelical church is the in modern evangelical church is the in modern evangelical church is the brain by far. brain by far. brain by far. >> By far. And when I my when I now the way >> By far. And when I my when I now the way >> By far. And when I my when I now the way I hear what Jesus says and what I see in I hear what Jesus says and what I see in I hear what Jesus says and what I see in the gospel, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I the gospel, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I the gospel, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I would define the way that I lived and would define the way that I lived and would define the way that I lived and led as the power of doing more and led as the power of doing more and led as the power of doing more and better and doing good things. better and doing good things. better and doing good things. That's a that's not the wheelhouse of That's a that's not the wheelhouse of That's a that's not the wheelhouse of this faith. this faith. this faith. >> It is being, not doing. We are in a >> It is being, not doing. We are in a >> It is being, not doing. We are in a church world where we are. I mean, these church world where we are. I mean, these church world where we are. I mean, these I can barely stomach watching preachers I can barely stomach watching preachers I can barely stomach watching preachers sometimes on TikTok or whatever because sometimes on TikTok or whatever because sometimes on TikTok or whatever because I'm like, "Oh, Lord Jesus." Oh, you're I'm like, "Oh, Lord Jesus." Oh, you're I'm like, "Oh, Lord Jesus." Oh, you're going to get an applause and five years going to get an applause and five years going to get an applause and five years from now. It cuz what sounds good to from now. It cuz what sounds good to from now. It cuz what sounds good to preach isn't the most helpful all the preach isn't the most helpful all the preach isn't the most helpful all the time.

time. time. >> It's not exciting. The right stuff's not >> It's not exciting. The right stuff's not >> It's not exciting. The right stuff's not always exciting always exciting always exciting to build habitual thinking rituals. to build habitual thinking rituals. to build habitual thinking rituals. That's the key to life. But that's not That's the key to life. But that's not That's the key to life. But that's not sexy viral. It's not entertaining. sexy viral. It's not entertaining. sexy viral. It's not entertaining. There's ways we can make it cool. But so There's ways we can make it cool. But so There's ways we can make it cool. But so that to me is the biggest shift that I that to me is the biggest shift that I that to me is the biggest shift that I would look back and I would go we'd take would look back and I would go we'd take would look back and I would go we'd take more time and we would look under the more time and we would look under the more time and we would look under the hood so much deeper like and this is not hood so much deeper like and this is not hood so much deeper like and this is not a knock on anybody from that era. But I a knock on anybody from that era. But I a knock on anybody from that era. But I was not a part of the time era where was not a part of the time era where was not a part of the time era where they were talking about like hey do you they were talking about like hey do you they were talking about like hey do you have any trauma? Not even a word. And have any trauma? Not even a word. And have any trauma? Not even a word. And that's a word that's not overused. We that's a word that's not overused. We that's a word that's not overused. We all get all that, but it's also still all get all that, but it's also still all get all that, but it's also still very true. very true. very true. >> Let's talk about sexual history. >> Let's talk about sexual history. >> Let's talk about sexual history. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Let's talk about sexual propensity. You >> Let's talk about sexual propensity. You >> Let's talk about sexual propensity. You know what that word is? And I would even know what that word is? And I would even know what that word is? And I would even think this is awesome. I was talking think this is awesome. I was talking think this is awesome. I was talking with Laura about this. with Laura about this. with Laura about this. If I sat on a lie detector when I'm 23 If I sat on a lie detector when I'm 23 If I sat on a lie detector when I'm 23 and answered questions, that would have and answered questions, that would have and answered questions, that would have been more fruitful than whatever was been more fruitful than whatever was been more fruitful than whatever was happening when I was that age. Because happening when I was that age. Because happening when I was that age. Because at that age, if you sit with, hey, how's at that age, if you sit with, hey, how's at that age, if you sit with, hey, how's your thought life? How's your It's good.

your thought life? How's your It's good. your thought life? How's your It's good. I got some challenges here. They're I got some challenges here. They're I got some challenges here. They're picking apart stuff. They're answering picking apart stuff. They're answering picking apart stuff. They're answering how they think you want to hear them, how they think you want to hear them, how they think you want to hear them, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> I wouldn't answer to pass the test. >> I wouldn't answer to pass the test. >> I wouldn't answer to pass the test. >> Like my funniest podcast question I >> Like my funniest podcast question I >> Like my funniest podcast question I always reject is, "What would you tell always reject is, "What would you tell always reject is, "What would you tell the 22-year-old you?" I was like, "The the 22-year-old you?" I was like, "The the 22-year-old you?" I was like, "The 22year-old me would have punched the 22year-old me would have punched the 22year-old me would have punched the 47year-old me right in [laughter] the 47year-old me right in [laughter] the 47year-old me right in [laughter] the face." He wouldn't have listened. face." He wouldn't have listened. face." He wouldn't have listened. >> And then prayed for me because that >> And then prayed for me because that >> And then prayed for me because that 47year-old is 47year-old is 47year-old is >> like, I you couldn't tell me anything. >> like, I you couldn't tell me anything. >> like, I you couldn't tell me anything. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> And that's not uncommon. Not even a bad >> And that's not uncommon. Not even a bad >> And that's not uncommon. Not even a bad way. I just would be like, "No, I'm way. I just would be like, "No, I'm way. I just would be like, "No, I'm good, man." Like you you need to pray good, man." Like you you need to pray good, man." Like you you need to pray more. Huh? more. Huh? more. Huh? >> When you're thinking of of of >> When you're thinking of of of >> When you're thinking of of of you know the Tik Tok clips and the you know the Tik Tok clips and the you know the Tik Tok clips and the things you say that you know are going things you say that you know are going things you say that you know are going to get applause. Let's be honest, that's to get applause. Let's be honest, that's to get applause. Let's be honest, that's a trick. a trick. a trick. >> Was there a part of you that was >> Was there a part of you that was >> Was there a part of you that was addicted to the applause? addicted to the applause? addicted to the applause? >> No, because it didn't hit me like people >> No, because it didn't hit me like people >> No, because it didn't hit me like people thought it did because I was loathing thought it did because I was loathing thought it did because I was loathing myself. myself. myself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, that's hard for people to >> So, that's hard for people to >> So, that's hard for people to understand. Like people from a far understand. Like people from a far understand. Like people from a far distance, they they have lowhanging, low distance, they they have lowhanging, low distance, they they have lowhanging, low IQ takes on guys like me. I don't judge IQ takes on guys like me. I don't judge IQ takes on guys like me. I don't judge them for it. They're doing the best they them for it. They're doing the best they them for it. They're doing the best they can. But guys like that live for this, can. But guys like that live for this, can. But guys like that live for this, live for that. You're not a guy like me.

live for that. You're not a guy like me. live for that. You're not a guy like me. You've never lived my life. How can you You've never lived my life. How can you You've never lived my life. How can you even know that? And no, the applause even know that? And no, the applause even know that? And no, the applause didn't matter to me at all because I didn't matter to me at all because I didn't matter to me at all because I knew that there was discrepancy and knew that there was discrepancy and knew that there was discrepancy and there was duality. there was duality. there was duality. >> So, if anything, it made it worse. >> So, if anything, it made it worse. >> So, if anything, it made it worse. >> So, it's kind of like you you you won an >> So, it's kind of like you you you won an >> So, it's kind of like you you you won an Oscar, but you only acted some of the Oscar, but you only acted some of the Oscar, but you only acted some of the scenes or something like that. Like it scenes or something like that. Like it scenes or something like that. Like it was like AI really was the voice. was like AI really was the voice. was like AI really was the voice. >> Yeah. AI really. So the applause did not >> Yeah. AI really. So the applause did not >> Yeah. AI really. So the applause did not move me at all. In fact, it made it move me at all. In fact, it made it move me at all. In fact, it made it worse. worse. worse. >> The bigger the acclaim, the more shame I >> The bigger the acclaim, the more shame I >> The bigger the acclaim, the more shame I felt, the bigger the growth, the more felt, the bigger the growth, the more felt, the bigger the growth, the more pain. Like I told Laura, I was like, I pain. Like I told Laura, I was like, I pain. Like I told Laura, I was like, I realized in New York, I never really realized in New York, I never really realized in New York, I never really celebrated a true win ever. Not one. celebrated a true win ever. Not one. celebrated a true win ever. Not one. Everybody else, so if let's just say a Everybody else, so if let's just say a Everybody else, so if let's just say a win is a 10. Everyone's at a 10, I'm at win is a 10. Everyone's at a 10, I'm at win is a 10. Everyone's at a 10, I'm at a seven because ah, something's wrong in a seven because ah, something's wrong in a seven because ah, something's wrong in me. So nothing it would it just create me. So nothing it would it just create me. So nothing it would it just create more pressure. more pressure. more pressure. >> Yeah. Yeah. What's a question nobody >> Yeah. Yeah. What's a question nobody >> Yeah. Yeah. What's a question nobody asks you asks you asks you >> in a conversation like this that you're >> in a conversation like this that you're >> in a conversation like this that you're like would someone I'd love someone ask like would someone I'd love someone ask like would someone I'd love someone ask me that question. me that question. me that question. >> Dang it, Carrie. That's a good question.

>> Dang it, Carrie. That's a good question. >> Dang it, Carrie. That's a good question. >> I don't know. I don't know because I >> I don't know. I don't know because I >> I don't know. I don't know because I feel like feel like feel like that's tough for me to answer because I that's tough for me to answer because I that's tough for me to answer because I feel like I exist now to answer the feel like I exist now to answer the feel like I exist now to answer the questions that somebody questions that somebody questions that somebody >> Well, you have left very few stones >> Well, you have left very few stones >> Well, you have left very few stones unturned in these last few years on your unturned in these last few years on your unturned in these last few years on your podcast, in the conversations podcast, in the conversations podcast, in the conversations and everything. Um, well, we were and everything. Um, well, we were and everything. Um, well, we were talking before we hit record about the talking before we hit record about the talking before we hit record about the two two two the the two models we have for people the the two models we have for people the the two models we have for people who find themselves in your situation. who find themselves in your situation. who find themselves in your situation. Yeah. Living the double life. Yeah. Living the double life. Yeah. Living the double life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Exposed. >> Exposed. >> Exposed. >> Empire burns to the ground. >> Empire burns to the ground. >> Empire burns to the ground. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Rehab. Well, no. Pre-rehab. Yeah. You >> Rehab. Well, no. Pre-rehab. Yeah. You >> Rehab. Well, no. Pre-rehab. Yeah. You know, the day it happened, know, the day it happened, know, the day it happened, >> the story breaks. >> the story breaks. >> the story breaks. >> You're cancelled. It's over. >> You're cancelled. It's over. >> You're cancelled. It's over. >> There's two models we have practically. >> There's two models we have practically. >> There's two models we have practically. One is you pop up across the street next One is you pop up across the street next One is you pop up across the street next week. Yes. I'm back. I'm better. I week. Yes. I'm back. I'm better. I week. Yes. I'm back. I'm better. I prayed. I'm forgiven. I'm absolved. the prayed. I'm forgiven. I'm absolved. the prayed. I'm forgiven. I'm absolved. the other, you're banished to the wilderness other, you're banished to the wilderness other, you're banished to the wilderness >> like the scapegoat in the Old Testament, >> like the scapegoat in the Old Testament, >> like the scapegoat in the Old Testament, >> never to be seen or heard from again.

>> never to be seen or heard from again. >> never to be seen or heard from again. And we have seen both play out over and And we have seen both play out over and And we have seen both play out over and over again. over again. over again. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The model, and this is why I'm having >> The model, and this is why I'm having >> The model, and this is why I'm having the conversation, I've seen you pursue the conversation, I've seen you pursue the conversation, I've seen you pursue and I believe on good faith that you're and I believe on good faith that you're and I believe on good faith that you're pursuing is pursuing is pursuing is >> exactly what you said before. It's what >> exactly what you said before. It's what >> exactly what you said before. It's what Henry Cloud writes about in his book, Henry Cloud writes about in his book, Henry Cloud writes about in his book, Trust. Trust. Trust. >> No, I'm a new person. I'm a different >> No, I'm a new person. I'm a different >> No, I'm a new person. I'm a different person. I am doing stuff every day that person. I am doing stuff every day that person. I am doing stuff every day that makes sure the Carl Lens at 47 is not makes sure the Carl Lens at 47 is not makes sure the Carl Lens at 47 is not the same Carl Lent at 37 the same Carl Lent at 37 the same Carl Lent at 37 >> and that I'm work. [clears throat] And >> and that I'm work. [clears throat] And >> and that I'm work. [clears throat] And you even said that, you know, you had to you even said that, you know, you had to you even said that, you know, you had to do two rehabs cuz it's like, oh, the old do two rehabs cuz it's like, oh, the old do two rehabs cuz it's like, oh, the old guy is still here. guy is still here. guy is still here. >> I got to get out. And you know, >> I got to get out. And you know, >> I got to get out. And you know, >> when you think about those two models we >> when you think about those two models we >> when you think about those two models we have [clears throat] have [clears throat] have [clears throat] >> for people who ended up in the situation >> for people who ended up in the situation >> for people who ended up in the situation that you ended up and did the things that you ended up and did the things that you ended up and did the things that you did. that you did. that you did. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What do you wish would change about that >> What do you wish would change about that >> What do you wish would change about that dialogue? Uh, [sighs and gasps] I think dialogue? Uh, [sighs and gasps] I think dialogue? Uh, [sighs and gasps] I think just definitive prescriptive ideas about just definitive prescriptive ideas about just definitive prescriptive ideas about it and it's probably going to lead us it and it's probably going to lead us it and it's probably going to lead us right to qualification. So, the right to qualification. So, the right to qualification. So, the conversation I hear a lot, which is conversation I hear a lot, which is conversation I hear a lot, which is always funny to me, is is underneath all always funny to me, is is underneath all always funny to me, is is underneath all this stuff because it's never me because this stuff because it's never me because this stuff because it's never me because I've I've never once expressed a desire I've I've never once expressed a desire I've I've never once expressed a desire to ever go back to do ministry like I to ever go back to do ministry like I to ever go back to do ministry like I did ever.

did ever. did ever. >> But yet, it's like people desperately >> But yet, it's like people desperately >> But yet, it's like people desperately want to think, you know, for a small want to think, you know, for a small want to think, you know, for a small fraction of people, like I'm very fraction of people, like I'm very fraction of people, like I'm very careful. I don't generalize anymore. For careful. I don't generalize anymore. For careful. I don't generalize anymore. For instance, somebody said to me, "I'm instance, somebody said to me, "I'm instance, somebody said to me, "I'm sorry for what the church did to you, sorry for what the church did to you, sorry for what the church did to you, how they treated you." And I said, "What how they treated you." And I said, "What how they treated you." And I said, "What are you talking about?" Like, "Just the are you talking about?" Like, "Just the are you talking about?" Like, "Just the church." I said, "You mean the Oh, the church." I said, "You mean the Oh, the church." I said, "You mean the Oh, the church at large. Amazing to me in my church at large. Amazing to me in my church at large. Amazing to me in my family. Kind, compassionate, awesome. family. Kind, compassionate, awesome. family. Kind, compassionate, awesome. Some bad experiences, but I don't let Some bad experiences, but I don't let Some bad experiences, but I don't let people do that anymore." It's like, "No, people do that anymore." It's like, "No, people do that anymore." It's like, "No, no, no." no, no." no, no." >> But like the the qualification >> But like the the qualification >> But like the the qualification issue is very clear in scripture what issue is very clear in scripture what issue is very clear in scripture what qualifies somebody. Very clear. And qualifies somebody. Very clear. And qualifies somebody. Very clear. And these are all present tense words used. these are all present tense words used. these are all present tense words used. These are character. These are virtues. These are character. These are virtues. These are character. These are virtues. These are So to be qualified to be a These are So to be qualified to be a These are So to be qualified to be a pastor, the guy has to live this life. pastor, the guy has to live this life. pastor, the guy has to live this life. Which by the way, Carrie, if we were to Which by the way, Carrie, if we were to Which by the way, Carrie, if we were to have a just a fun game of picking out have a just a fun game of picking out have a just a fun game of picking out each one. Very interesting because the each one. Very interesting because the each one. Very interesting because the PE same people who point out someone's PE same people who point out someone's PE same people who point out someone's disqualification, I'd say, well, you're disqualification, I'd say, well, you're disqualification, I'd say, well, you're living under this banner here that a living under this banner here that a living under this banner here that a pastor must be these things. Do you pastor must be these things. Do you pastor must be these things. Do you really want a spotlight on each of really want a spotlight on each of really want a spotlight on each of these?

these? these? >> And then when you find something, >> And then when you find something, >> And then when you find something, they'll justify it. So I can take they'll justify it. So I can take they'll justify it. So I can take something simple as like a household something simple as like a household something simple as like a household that's under control. that's under control. that's under control. >> Okay. So let's just say you've got a son >> Okay. So let's just say you've got a son >> Okay. So let's just say you've got a son that's going through a tough time. that's going through a tough time. that's going through a tough time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um you you expect to stay in your >> Um you you expect to stay in your >> Um you you expect to stay in your pastoral role because for you that pastoral role because for you that pastoral role because for you that doesn't mean that. doesn't mean that. doesn't mean that. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Or uh above above reproach. I live above >> Or uh above above reproach. I live above >> Or uh above above reproach. I live above reproach according to you. reproach according to you. reproach according to you. >> Right. But nobody can ask you a hard >> Right. But nobody can ask you a hard >> Right. But nobody can ask you a hard question on your staff. question on your staff. question on your staff. >> Sure. Or or uh what is it? But you you >> Sure. Or or uh what is it? But you you >> Sure. Or or uh what is it? But you you don't you don't live above reproach. don't you don't live above reproach. don't you don't live above reproach. People question you all the time. But People question you all the time. But People question you all the time. But you have rationalized that as that's you have rationalized that as that's you have rationalized that as that's okay. So you're still good. And so the okay. So you're still good. And so the okay. So you're still good. And so the qualifications are absolute mess even qualifications are absolute mess even qualifications are absolute mess even though the Bible makes it clear. We are though the Bible makes it clear. We are though the Bible makes it clear. We are filled with duality in our judgment of filled with duality in our judgment of filled with duality in our judgment of and our upholding of these. That's the and our upholding of these. That's the and our upholding of these. That's the first thing. So Bible's clear on what first thing. So Bible's clear on what first thing. So Bible's clear on what qualifies. Um I was rightfully qualifies. Um I was rightfully qualifies. Um I was rightfully disqualified from the mission and the disqualified from the mission and the disqualified from the mission and the role that I had there. role that I had there. role that I had there. >> You and I both know you know your Bible >> You and I both know you know your Bible >> You and I both know you know your Bible way better than I do. The Bible says way better than I do. The Bible says way better than I do. The Bible says nothing about requalification. Firstly, nothing about requalification. Firstly, nothing about requalification. Firstly, there is nothing anybody saying there is nothing anybody saying there is nothing anybody saying otherwise they don't know their Bible or otherwise they don't know their Bible or otherwise they don't know their Bible or they're standing on an inference that I they're standing on an inference that I they're standing on an inference that I reject on its face. In fact, the Bible reject on its face. In fact, the Bible reject on its face. In fact, the Bible would speak to, you know, there's two would speak to, you know, there's two would speak to, you know, there's two different conversations here.

different conversations here. different conversations here. Restoration back to life is all I've Restoration back to life is all I've Restoration back to life is all I've ever been interested in ever been interested in ever been interested in >> when it comes to restoration to >> when it comes to restoration to >> when it comes to restoration to ministry. My thing is not a am I can ministry. My thing is not a am I can ministry. My thing is not a am I can someone be re-qualified. My personal someone be re-qualified. My personal someone be re-qualified. My personal belief is abso freakingutely. Tell me belief is abso freakingutely. Tell me belief is abso freakingutely. Tell me why they can't. why they can't. why they can't. >> Like these are present tense things. So >> Like these are present tense things. So >> Like these are present tense things. So to pretend that a minister who's fallen to pretend that a minister who's fallen to pretend that a minister who's fallen cannot be restored into ministry is wild cannot be restored into ministry is wild cannot be restored into ministry is wild to me. The question is not can they. The to me. The question is not can they. The to me. The question is not can they. The question is is it wise, question is is it wise, question is is it wise, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> So I live under the banner of not I'm >> So I live under the banner of not I'm >> So I live under the banner of not I'm not doing ministry because I don't want not doing ministry because I don't want not doing ministry because I don't want to, not cuz I'm disqualified in any way. to, not cuz I'm disqualified in any way. to, not cuz I'm disqualified in any way. Now having said that, my personal belief Now having said that, my personal belief Now having said that, my personal belief is the level of impact and and sin. I is the level of impact and and sin. I is the level of impact and and sin. I personally find it a reverent way to personally find it a reverent way to personally find it a reverent way to hold it where I got at least as much hold it where I got at least as much hold it where I got at least as much time time time showing and proving and living a showing and proving and living a showing and proving and living a different way. So someday the level the different way. So someday the level the different way. So someday the level the the the conversation of is Carl Lent the the conversation of is Carl Lent the the conversation of is Carl Lent qualified to be a leader in a church qualified to be a leader in a church qualified to be a leader in a church again. That's going to come down to again. That's going to come down to again. That's going to come down to communal discernment, not my own. It's communal discernment, not my own. It's communal discernment, not my own. It's not between me and God.

not between me and God. not between me and God. >> It's going to come down to what's the am >> It's going to come down to what's the am >> It's going to come down to what's the am I becoming the man I say I am? none of I becoming the man I say I am? none of I becoming the man I say I am? none of my qual if I'm becoming the man I say I my qual if I'm becoming the man I say I my qual if I'm becoming the man I say I am this conversation's off the table it am this conversation's off the table it am this conversation's off the table it but to me it's a matter of wisdom I but to me it's a matter of wisdom I but to me it's a matter of wisdom I don't feel like the reverent kind thing don't feel like the reverent kind thing don't feel like the reverent kind thing to do to the role that I fell from is to to do to the role that I fell from is to to do to the role that I fell from is to immediately um you know ever talk about immediately um you know ever talk about immediately um you know ever talk about or think about walking back into or think about walking back into or think about walking back into something like that if I ever feel like something like that if I ever feel like something like that if I ever feel like that's something that interests me I that's something that interests me I that's something that interests me I will submit to a process that includes will submit to a process that includes will submit to a process that includes so to me If someone wants to, if they've so to me If someone wants to, if they've so to me If someone wants to, if they've been disqualified from ministry and been disqualified from ministry and been disqualified from ministry and they're they're claiming I'm qualified they're they're claiming I'm qualified they're they're claiming I'm qualified again, um that's going to be a group again, um that's going to be a group again, um that's going to be a group decision and then ultimately comes down decision and then ultimately comes down decision and then ultimately comes down to the people who choose to follow these to the people who choose to follow these to the people who choose to follow these men and women. That's who it really men and women. That's who it really men and women. That's who it really comes down to. comes down to. comes down to. >> It's a community decision, >> It's a community decision, >> It's a community decision, >> right? So I don't I don't subscribe to >> right? So I don't I don't subscribe to >> right? So I don't I don't subscribe to it. I I now I speak to it boldly. For it. I I now I speak to it boldly. For it. I I now I speak to it boldly. For years I just let that conversation ride, years I just let that conversation ride, years I just let that conversation ride, but now um it's easy for me to speak to but now um it's easy for me to speak to but now um it's easy for me to speak to because I have nothing to hide, nothing because I have nothing to hide, nothing because I have nothing to hide, nothing to prove. like I I have been graced by to prove. like I I have been graced by to prove. like I I have been graced by God to find a beautiful lane outside of God to find a beautiful lane outside of God to find a beautiful lane outside of ministry that I absolutely love. So ministry that I absolutely love. So ministry that I absolutely love. So that's the other problem, Carrie, is that's the other problem, Carrie, is that's the other problem, Carrie, is that when God doing this work, if you that when God doing this work, if you that when God doing this work, if you fall sexually, right, as a pastor with fall sexually, right, as a pastor with fall sexually, right, as a pastor with all that at stake to pretend that you all that at stake to pretend that you all that at stake to pretend that you can come back can come back can come back in any time frame that's close to that in any time frame that's close to that in any time frame that's close to that fall, my personal experience of being a fall, my personal experience of being a fall, my personal experience of being a guy who's walked that road, it takes a

guy who's walked that road, it takes a guy who's walked that road, it takes a whole lot of work to to to be in that whole lot of work to to to be in that whole lot of work to to to be in that position position position >> and misuse it in that way. That's not a >> and misuse it in that way. That's not a >> and misuse it in that way. That's not a doing fix. That's a being issue. doing fix. That's a being issue. doing fix. That's a being issue. You have to change who you're being. You have to change who you're being. You have to change who you're being. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> From the inside out. >> From the inside out. >> From the inside out. >> Absolutely. I'm not interested in your >> Absolutely. I'm not interested in your >> Absolutely. I'm not interested in your change behavior. I'm really not. change behavior. I'm really not. change behavior. I'm really not. >> I'm not interested in I I don't So, I >> I'm not interested in I I don't So, I >> I'm not interested in I I don't So, I don't get it. I don't judge it, but I'm don't get it. I don't judge it, but I'm don't get it. I don't judge it, but I'm with you. I see it and I'm going that with you. I see it and I'm going that with you. I see it and I'm going that seems quick, man. Like, seems quick, man. Like, seems quick, man. Like, >> you must be a better man to me. But for >> you must be a better man to me. But for >> you must be a better man to me. But for me, I'm like doing leadership and me, I'm like doing leadership and me, I'm like doing leadership and ministry and church again. Uh I'm ministry and church again. Uh I'm ministry and church again. Uh I'm honored to help a lot of churches right honored to help a lot of churches right honored to help a lot of churches right now from the seat I'm in. It's a joy. U now from the seat I'm in. It's a joy. U now from the seat I'm in. It's a joy. U but I'm good there. Like I can speak but I'm good there. Like I can speak but I'm good there. Like I can speak anywhere. I can do whatever I want. But anywhere. I can do whatever I want. But anywhere. I can do whatever I want. But to hold that role again to hold that role again to hold that role again >> uh out of complete reverence, I don't >> uh out of complete reverence, I don't >> uh out of complete reverence, I don't even entertain the conversation. even entertain the conversation. even entertain the conversation. >> Yeah. Because it's not a matter of am I >> Yeah. Because it's not a matter of am I >> Yeah. Because it's not a matter of am I do I technically believe that people can do I technically believe that people can do I technically believe that people can be re-qualified to minister? I be re-qualified to minister? I be re-qualified to minister? I personally do because I believe the personally do because I believe the personally do because I believe the Bible points to this. You cannot tell me Bible points to this. You cannot tell me Bible points to this. You cannot tell me it does not. You can tell me what a it does not. You can tell me what a it does not. You can tell me what a qualification is. Therefore, the qualification is. Therefore, the qualification is. Therefore, the inference is when we don't meet these, inference is when we don't meet these, inference is when we don't meet these, we are disqualified.

we are disqualified. we are disqualified. Show me the passages about Show me the passages about Show me the passages about re-qualification. Show me the one about re-qualification. Show me the one about re-qualification. Show me the one about permanent disqualification. Won't find permanent disqualification. Won't find permanent disqualification. Won't find that one either. that one either. that one either. >> So, it's tricky. And I understand why >> So, it's tricky. And I understand why >> So, it's tricky. And I understand why it's tricky. You got the John it's tricky. You got the John it's tricky. You got the John MacArthur's who, you know, who say these MacArthur's who, you know, who say these MacArthur's who, you know, who say these things that are definitive. He's not things that are definitive. He's not things that are definitive. He's not God. He's not speaking from the Bible. God. He's not speaking from the Bible. God. He's not speaking from the Bible. That's his opinion. Like, someone falls That's his opinion. Like, someone falls That's his opinion. Like, someone falls sexually, they're irreversibly damaged sexually, they're irreversibly damaged sexually, they're irreversibly damaged and can never come back to the pulpit. and can never come back to the pulpit. and can never come back to the pulpit. Cool, bro. That's your opinion, though. Cool, bro. That's your opinion, though. Cool, bro. That's your opinion, though. >> There's [clears throat] no basis for >> There's [clears throat] no basis for >> There's [clears throat] no basis for that. There is basis to say, "Yes, I'm that. There is basis to say, "Yes, I'm that. There is basis to say, "Yes, I'm qualified, but is it is it healthy? qualified, but is it is it healthy? qualified, but is it is it healthy? >> Is it wise? Is it kind? Does it make >> Is it wise? Is it kind? Does it make >> Is it wise? Is it kind? Does it make sense? Is it fair on the people?" And if sense? Is it fair on the people?" And if sense? Is it fair on the people?" And if I ever get to a place where I feel like I ever get to a place where I feel like I ever get to a place where I feel like all those things line up, I'm all those things line up, I'm all those things line up, I'm interested. If that's the way it goes, I interested. If that's the way it goes, I interested. If that's the way it goes, I have no plans or no desire. But I say have no plans or no desire. But I say have no plans or no desire. But I say that for everybody else who may. And I that for everybody else who may. And I that for everybody else who may. And I look at a man who says, "I fell, Carl, look at a man who says, "I fell, Carl, look at a man who says, "I fell, Carl, and I feel like God's called me to and I feel like God's called me to and I feel like God's called me to ministry." Cool. Let's like or you're ministry." Cool. Let's like or you're ministry." Cool. Let's like or you're not disqualified from the thought of it. not disqualified from the thought of it. not disqualified from the thought of it. But man, wisdom, tact, checks, balances.

But man, wisdom, tact, checks, balances. But man, wisdom, tact, checks, balances. Like you can never act like that's it's Like you can never act like that's it's Like you can never act like that's it's like me and Laura in marriage. like me and Laura in marriage. like me and Laura in marriage. >> I've lost the right forever to win an >> I've lost the right forever to win an >> I've lost the right forever to win an argument or be mad at her for demanding argument or be mad at her for demanding argument or be mad at her for demanding something of me. So five years in, if something of me. So five years in, if something of me. So five years in, if she were to say, "Let me check your she were to say, "Let me check your she were to say, "Let me check your phone." For me to be like, "Really?" phone." For me to be like, "Really?" phone." For me to be like, "Really?" after five years really after five years really after five years really I would be uh a lost soul. My response I would be uh a lost soul. My response I would be uh a lost soul. My response is going to be is going to be is going to be >> here it is >> here it is >> here it is >> 50 years from now because of what >> 50 years from now because of what >> 50 years from now because of what happened. So you talk about a pastor happened. So you talk about a pastor happened. So you talk about a pastor that's fallen like I did. that's fallen like I did. that's fallen like I did. Brother, you're you're you're crazy if Brother, you're you're you're crazy if Brother, you're you're you're crazy if you don't put triple eyes on me. M you don't put triple eyes on me. M you don't put triple eyes on me. M >> if you don't I would >> if you don't I would >> if you don't I would >> and I would still give somebody a >> and I would still give somebody a >> and I would still give somebody a chance. But for me to act like I'm never chance. But for me to act like I'm never chance. But for me to act like I'm never going to I'm not going to make people going to I'm not going to make people going to I'm not going to make people try to forget what I walked through. I'm try to forget what I walked through. I'm try to forget what I walked through. I'm going to tell you what I walked through. going to tell you what I walked through. going to tell you what I walked through. So you get to choose right away. Hey, So you get to choose right away. Hey, So you get to choose right away. Hey, here's the truth. I did fall. I did have here's the truth. I did fall. I did have here's the truth. I did fall. I did have duplicity. I did lie. There were some duplicity. I did lie. There were some duplicity. I did lie. There were some things that I'm so grateful that God's things that I'm so grateful that God's things that I'm so grateful that God's brought me out of. But those are real.

brought me out of. But those are real. brought me out of. But those are real. You need to know that moving forward. If You need to know that moving forward. If You need to know that moving forward. If you're going to be in my life and you're you're going to be in my life and you're you're going to be in my life and you're going to trust what I say, here's what I going to trust what I say, here's what I going to trust what I say, here's what I would do if I were you. Talk to this would do if I were you. Talk to this would do if I were you. Talk to this person. and talk to that person. Don't person. and talk to that person. Don't person. and talk to that person. Don't listen to me. You can I'm trustworthy. listen to me. You can I'm trustworthy. listen to me. You can I'm trustworthy. But you're not wrong to question that. But you're not wrong to question that. But you're not wrong to question that. >> I did that, not you. So your suspicion >> I did that, not you. So your suspicion >> I did that, not you. So your suspicion is not on you. It's on me. is not on you. It's on me. is not on you. It's on me. >> I can live with that. I'm happy. I'm >> I can live with that. I'm happy. I'm >> I can live with that. I'm happy. I'm going to be right here. And because I going to be right here. And because I going to be right here. And because I know where I'm headed, not worried about know where I'm headed, not worried about know where I'm headed, not worried about that. Watch me. Cool. And and everyone that. Watch me. Cool. And and everyone that. Watch me. Cool. And and everyone has their own meter of like someone said has their own meter of like someone said has their own meter of like someone said the other day, like, you know, you've the other day, like, you know, you've the other day, like, you know, you've really you've earned my respect. And I really you've earned my respect. And I really you've earned my respect. And I said, I handled it well. Inside I'm said, I handled it well. Inside I'm said, I handled it well. Inside I'm going, I never wanted it or needed it, going, I never wanted it or needed it, going, I never wanted it or needed it, but interesting. I wonder what it was but interesting. I wonder what it was but interesting. I wonder what it was for that particular person. M for that particular person. M for that particular person. M >> because you look at my comment sometimes >> because you look at my comment sometimes >> because you look at my comment sometimes like this guy hasn't changed another like this guy hasn't changed another like this guy hasn't changed another person I I really feel like the guy's person I I really feel like the guy's person I I really feel like the guy's changed changed changed like okay great so everyone has to make like okay great so everyone has to make like okay great so everyone has to make their own call nobody's right nobody's their own call nobody's right nobody's their own call nobody's right nobody's wrong it just needs to be said no wrong it just needs to be said no wrong it just needs to be said no there's no arbitrary rules for this there's no arbitrary rules for this there's no arbitrary rules for this stuff how do you know he's not really stuff how do you know he's not really stuff how do you know he's not really repentant okay man well unfortunately repentant okay man well unfortunately repentant okay man well unfortunately for you judgy judgeerson repentance is for you judgy judgeerson repentance is for you judgy judgeerson repentance is an inside job so you wouldn't know an inside job so you wouldn't know an inside job so you wouldn't know either way you just wouldn't He would either way you just wouldn't He would either way you just wouldn't He would show more of this. You mean I perform show more of this. You mean I perform show more of this. You mean I perform the way you want me to perform and that the way you want me to perform and that the way you want me to perform and that would make you think I'm changed? Thanks would make you think I'm changed? Thanks would make you think I'm changed? Thanks for your input.

for your input. for your input. >> Somebody who was repentant would do >> Somebody who was repentant would do >> Somebody who was repentant would do these things would do these things. these things would do these things. these things would do these things. Somebody who is repentant becomes this Somebody who is repentant becomes this Somebody who is repentant becomes this man. Big difference. man. Big difference. man. Big difference. You know, one of the things that happens You know, one of the things that happens You know, one of the things that happens anytime there's, anytime there's, anytime there's, you know, a fall you know, a fall you know, a fall >> like you went through, the thousands, >> like you went through, the thousands, >> like you went through, the thousands, tens of thousands of people at Hillsong, tens of thousands of people at Hillsong, tens of thousands of people at Hillsong, >> all the leaders who tracked with you. >> all the leaders who tracked with you. >> all the leaders who tracked with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Many of whom are listening, watching. >> Many of whom are listening, watching. >> Many of whom are listening, watching. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What do you say to them? >> What do you say to them? >> What do you say to them? >> I would say, I love you. Um, >> I would say, I love you. Um, >> I would say, I love you. Um, I honor the calling that you're in. I I honor the calling that you're in. I I honor the calling that you're in. I would say would say would say hold me with both stories being hold me with both stories being hold me with both stories being accurately true. Like if you are going accurately true. Like if you are going accurately true. Like if you are going to hang out on any part of anybody's to hang out on any part of anybody's to hang out on any part of anybody's story, I'd say it's unwise. So keep story, I'd say it's unwise. So keep story, I'd say it's unwise. So keep watching stories unfold. So it's like if watching stories unfold. So it's like if watching stories unfold. So it's like if you are disappointed you are disappointed you are disappointed >> in me completely fair and I'm so sorry. >> in me completely fair and I'm so sorry. >> in me completely fair and I'm so sorry. >> I'm sorry.

>> I'm sorry. >> I'm sorry. >> Like like let's think for a minute about >> Like like let's think for a minute about >> Like like let's think for a minute about the tens of thousands of people at the tens of thousands of people at the tens of thousands of people at Hillsong New York. You run into Hillsong New York. You run into Hillsong New York. You run into somebody. You're in New York. somebody. You're in New York. somebody. You're in New York. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They're like, >> They're like, >> They're like, >> happened. >> happened. >> happened. >> I'm sure it has. >> I'm sure it has. >> I'm sure it has. >> Hundreds of times already. >> Hundreds of times already. >> Hundreds of times already. >> I'm sure it has. What are those >> I'm sure it has. What are those >> I'm sure it has. What are those conversations like? conversations like? conversations like? >> They're always beautiful, Carrie. That's >> They're always beautiful, Carrie. That's >> They're always beautiful, Carrie. That's what's crazy to me. And it kills me what's crazy to me. And it kills me what's crazy to me. And it kills me every time because I They can barely get every time because I They can barely get every time because I They can barely get words out. I can get barely words out, words out. I can get barely words out, words out. I can get barely words out, but I can always get out. I'm so sorry. but I can always get out. I'm so sorry. but I can always get out. I'm so sorry. if I get a chance. When you make amends and your life isn't When you make amends and your life isn't this big public profile, it's actually this big public profile, it's actually this big public profile, it's actually sometimes easier on your soul because sometimes easier on your soul because sometimes easier on your soul because there's 10 people that matter to you and there's 10 people that matter to you and there's 10 people that matter to you and you've [snorts] done your best. You've you've [snorts] done your best. You've you've [snorts] done your best. You've done what you can do to make these done what you can do to make these done what you can do to make these things right. The rest is on them. When things right. The rest is on them. When things right. The rest is on them. When you have a bigger platform, bigger you have a bigger platform, bigger you have a bigger platform, bigger world, man, it's a tough thing because I world, man, it's a tough thing because I world, man, it's a tough thing because I I cannot make personal amends. What I I cannot make personal amends. What I I cannot make personal amends. What I can do is be a living amend. So maybe if can do is be a living amend. So maybe if can do is be a living amend. So maybe if I've never apologized to you, you're a I've never apologized to you, you're a I've never apologized to you, you're a part of our church in New Jersey and part of our church in New Jersey and part of our church in New Jersey and I've never got a chance to hug you and I've never got a chance to hug you and I've never got a chance to hug you and say I'm sorry. Know that my life say I'm sorry. Know that my life say I'm sorry. Know that my life represents a lifelong apology and I'm represents a lifelong apology and I'm represents a lifelong apology and I'm grateful for your trust. I'm sorry I grateful for your trust. I'm sorry I grateful for your trust. I'm sorry I broke it and I'm grateful that God's so broke it and I'm grateful that God's so broke it and I'm grateful that God's so gracious. He's going to help you trust gracious. He's going to help you trust gracious. He's going to help you trust again.

again. again. And And And that's the only way to hold it or else that's the only way to hold it or else that's the only way to hold it or else you can't survive. I can't I I was going you can't survive. I can't I I was going you can't survive. I can't I I was going to I was going to die of shame. to I was going to die of shame. to I was going to die of shame. I was and God saved me from that. I was and God saved me from that. I was and God saved me from that. >> I don't live I don't live in shame >> I don't live I don't live in shame >> I don't live I don't live in shame today. I don't even visit that street. I today. I don't even visit that street. I today. I don't even visit that street. I It's a carcass on my wall. I can pick it It's a carcass on my wall. I can pick it It's a carcass on my wall. I can pick it up anytime. But I am grateful to report up anytime. But I am grateful to report up anytime. But I am grateful to report that there's work you can do where I that there's work you can do where I that there's work you can do where I don't I don't I don't I it's a impossible. It's only akin to my it's a impossible. It's only akin to my it's a impossible. It's only akin to my salvation experience is the experience salvation experience is the experience salvation experience is the experience I've had with shame. I've had with shame. I've had with shame. God has helped me come through it. Shame God has helped me come through it. Shame God has helped me come through it. Shame to me is a selfish emotion. If you catch to me is a selfish emotion. If you catch to me is a selfish emotion. If you catch me feeling shame about myself, I'm off me feeling shame about myself, I'm off me feeling shame about myself, I'm off the track because shame is I'm bad. I the track because shame is I'm bad. I the track because shame is I'm bad. I look bad to you. I can't believe what look bad to you. I can't believe what look bad to you. I can't believe what I've done. What good does shame do I've done. What good does shame do I've done. What good does shame do anybody? anybody? anybody? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. >> So, what replaces shame? >> So, what replaces shame? >> So, what replaces shame? >> Passion and hope and discipline to grow. >> Passion and hope and discipline to grow. >> Passion and hope and discipline to grow. >> Shame is who you were and feeling bad >> Shame is who you were and feeling bad >> Shame is who you were and feeling bad about what you did.

about what you did. about what you did. >> Hold you back, freeze you in a moment. >> Hold you back, freeze you in a moment. >> Hold you back, freeze you in a moment. It's backwards. It's backwards. It's backwards. >> Hope of becoming a better man every day >> Hope of becoming a better man every day >> Hope of becoming a better man every day pulls you out. I can do nothing about pulls you out. I can do nothing about pulls you out. I can do nothing about what I did and who I was. I can do what I did and who I was. I can do what I did and who I was. I can do everything about who I'm becoming right everything about who I'm becoming right everything about who I'm becoming right now. And there's so much power right now. And there's so much power right now. And there's so much power right there that it's it's just so I love there that it's it's just so I love there that it's it's just so I love being able to look at people who are being able to look at people who are being able to look at people who are shattered and say, "I've been there. shattered and say, "I've been there. shattered and say, "I've been there. I've been there. I've been there. I've I've been there. I've been there. I've I've been there. I've been there. I've been there. I've been there. And I'm been there. I've been there. And I'm been there. I've been there. And I'm here right now. I I got a lot of pain here right now. I I got a lot of pain here right now. I I got a lot of pain that I I had to manage and I will that I I had to manage and I will that I I had to manage and I will forever. But my friend, I'm telling you, forever. But my friend, I'm telling you, forever. But my friend, I'm telling you, there's nobody that's going to listen to there's nobody that's going to listen to there's nobody that's going to listen to this that has to live in shame. this that has to live in shame. this that has to live in shame. >> Nobody. That's a choice. Shame is a >> Nobody. That's a choice. Shame is a >> Nobody. That's a choice. Shame is a choice. When you own that, it makes it choice. When you own that, it makes it choice. When you own that, it makes it hard. People hate that. They push back hard. People hate that. They push back hard. People hate that. They push back because they they like that victim because they they like that victim because they they like that victim shield. For me to feel shame about what shield. For me to feel shame about what shield. For me to feel shame about what happened would still mean I'm the most happened would still mean I'm the most happened would still mean I'm the most self-centered man walking the earth. self-centered man walking the earth. self-centered man walking the earth. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] for the leader, especially the pastor. for the leader, especially the pastor. for the leader, especially the pastor. Yeah. Church leader.

Yeah. Church leader. Yeah. Church leader. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Who is where you were a decade ago? >> Who is where you were a decade ago? >> Who is where you were a decade ago? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Rapid growth. Oh my goodness. I don't >> Rapid growth. Oh my goodness. I don't >> Rapid growth. Oh my goodness. I don't know what to do. Or they're sitting on know what to do. Or they're sitting on know what to do. Or they're sitting on something that it's like that was the something that it's like that was the something that it's like that was the last time. last time. last time. >> Let's just let's take the second part >> Let's just let's take the second part >> Let's just let's take the second part out. Let's just talk about rapid growth, out. Let's just talk about rapid growth, out. Let's just talk about rapid growth, >> okay? >> okay? >> okay? >> Because that is a question I'm really >> Because that is a question I'm really >> Because that is a question I'm really interested in. interested in. interested in. Um, you know, forget the metaphor you Um, you know, forget the metaphor you Um, you know, forget the metaphor you used, but this this this, you know, used, but this this this, you know, used, but this this this, you know, train that's moving so fast and I don't train that's moving so fast and I don't train that's moving so fast and I don't know how to stop it. know how to stop it. know how to stop it. >> They're feeling that. And maybe they're >> They're feeling that. And maybe they're >> They're feeling that. And maybe they're not cheating on their wife right now. not cheating on their wife right now. not cheating on their wife right now. They're not, but their thought life is They're not, but their thought life is They're not, but their thought life is going sideways. They're exhausted. going sideways. They're exhausted. going sideways. They're exhausted. They're preaching service 7, service They're preaching service 7, service They're preaching service 7, service three. It doesn't matter. And again, three. It doesn't matter. And again, three. It doesn't matter. And again, this happens when there's 75 people in this happens when there's 75 people in this happens when there's 75 people in the room or 7500. the room or 7500. the room or 7500. >> Such a great point. >> Such a great point. >> Such a great point. >> It really does. you don't have to be an >> It really does. you don't have to be an >> It really does. you don't have to be an influential pastor in New York. influential pastor in New York. influential pastor in New York. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> What's your word to them? >> What's your word to them? >> What's your word to them? >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, it's not going to get easier. it's not going to get easier. it's not going to get easier. So, if you're hurting now, you'll die in So, if you're hurting now, you'll die in So, if you're hurting now, you'll die in a couple months. That's what I'd say to a couple months. That's what I'd say to a couple months. That's what I'd say to you. So, whatever you're doing that's you. So, whatever you're doing that's you. So, whatever you're doing that's uncomfortable, figure it out right now.

uncomfortable, figure it out right now. uncomfortable, figure it out right now. So, if there's an area that you're like, So, if there's an area that you're like, So, if there's an area that you're like, man, I just got, if we can just get man, I just got, if we can just get man, I just got, if we can just get through this season, here's a common through this season, here's a common through this season, here's a common phrase I'll get from guys I love. We're phrase I'll get from guys I love. We're phrase I'll get from guys I love. We're in the middle of this project, man. And in the middle of this project, man. And in the middle of this project, man. And I know I'm out of gas. I'm out of fumes, I know I'm out of gas. I'm out of fumes, I know I'm out of gas. I'm out of fumes, but you got to get to here. And then I'm but you got to get to here. And then I'm but you got to get to here. And then I'm I I I >> And then my brother, [clears throat] you >> And then my brother, [clears throat] you >> And then my brother, [clears throat] you guess how many stories I heard like that guess how many stories I heard like that guess how many stories I heard like that um in rehab, um in rehab, um in rehab, >> including my own. I was like, frick, we >> including my own. I was like, frick, we >> including my own. I was like, frick, we all do this. I had a beautiful exit all do this. I had a beautiful exit all do this. I had a beautiful exit strategy that's going to work on my strategy that's going to work on my strategy that's going to work on my terms. I'm going to I'm going to um terms. I'm going to I'm going to um terms. I'm going to I'm going to um raise up this guy to take more raise up this guy to take more raise up this guy to take more leadership. leadership. leadership. >> This was your strategy at Oh, yeah. So, >> This was your strategy at Oh, yeah. So, >> This was your strategy at Oh, yeah. So, you hadn't escaped you hadn't escaped you hadn't escaped >> towards the end 100%. that but that that >> towards the end 100%. that but that that >> towards the end 100%. that but that that that was my that was my duty. It was that was my that was my duty. It was that was my that was my duty. It was like, okay, here's how I'm going to fix like, okay, here's how I'm going to fix like, okay, here's how I'm going to fix all this stuff that's broken. I'm gonna all this stuff that's broken. I'm gonna all this stuff that's broken. I'm gonna get everything in such a place where get everything in such a place where get everything in such a place where it's great and I'm going to kind of it's great and I'm going to kind of it's great and I'm going to kind of drift off, get some help, you know, drift off, get some help, you know, drift off, get some help, you know, handle this stuff. I just got to get handle this stuff. I just got to get handle this stuff. I just got to get this stuff settled. And it's a this stuff settled. And it's a this stuff settled. And it's a self-sabotaging lie. never happens self-sabotaging lie. never happens self-sabotaging lie. never happens because I if it would have happened I because I if it would have happened I because I if it would have happened I would have been fine would have been fine would have been fine >> and it still would have been broken >> and it still would have been broken >> and it still would have been broken because I needed I now know if it hadn't because I needed I now know if it hadn't because I needed I now know if it hadn't been that humiliating and that exposing been that humiliating and that exposing been that humiliating and that exposing I probably would have held some lies I probably would have held some lies I probably would have held some lies >> got to be honest with you so as much as >> got to be honest with you so as much as >> got to be honest with you so as much as I hate it at the time if it wasn't that I hate it at the time if it wasn't that I hate it at the time if it wasn't that if that that many people didn't leave if that that many people didn't leave if that that many people didn't leave our life and that many people didn't our life and that many people didn't our life and that many people didn't like just this feeling of like what I I like just this feeling of like what I I like just this feeling of like what I I I in my worst nightmare I didn't think I in my worst nightmare I didn't think I in my worst nightmare I didn't think it goes as bad as it did.

it goes as bad as it did. it goes as bad as it did. And I don't think it helped people be And I don't think it helped people be And I don't think it helped people be more honest. By the way, Carrie, I think more honest. By the way, Carrie, I think more honest. By the way, Carrie, I think that if a pastor was watching my life, that if a pastor was watching my life, that if a pastor was watching my life, they were like, "If it happened to that they were like, "If it happened to that they were like, "If it happened to that guy that bad, imagine what they'll do to guy that bad, imagine what they'll do to guy that bad, imagine what they'll do to me. I'm tucking this thing away deeper." me. I'm tucking this thing away deeper." me. I'm tucking this thing away deeper." And it happened. And it happened. And it happened. >> There are friends I that I have that >> There are friends I that I have that >> There are friends I that I have that >> um >> um >> um I I I They didn't come out with their stuff They didn't come out with their stuff They didn't come out with their stuff because I got caught. because I got caught. because I got caught. >> They buried that thing. Maybe they went >> They buried that thing. Maybe they went >> They buried that thing. Maybe they went away to some counseling. They didn't away to some counseling. They didn't away to some counseling. They didn't tell anybody about I didn't stand to tell anybody about I didn't stand to tell anybody about I didn't stand to tell their church. By the way, before tell their church. By the way, before tell their church. By the way, before you jump on those pastors who fell, you jump on those pastors who fell, you jump on those pastors who fell, we're in the same boat. You know, none we're in the same boat. You know, none we're in the same boat. You know, none of that stuff. It was uh you know, and of that stuff. It was uh you know, and of that stuff. It was uh you know, and some of that stuff I I still manage. I some of that stuff I I still manage. I some of that stuff I I still manage. I have to manage to keep it healthy have to manage to keep it healthy have to manage to keep it healthy because the self-righteous bite that I because the self-righteous bite that I because the self-righteous bite that I stomach early, I don't stomach that stomach early, I don't stomach that stomach early, I don't stomach that anymore. I'll call it. anymore. I'll call it. anymore. I'll call it. >> And that was something that I didn't >> And that was something that I didn't >> And that was something that I didn't understand. And it still doesn't track understand. And it still doesn't track understand. And it still doesn't track with me healthy. So, I know that it's a with me healthy. So, I know that it's a with me healthy. So, I know that it's a legit beef legit beef legit beef >> cuz when I was hurting, I was like, man, >> cuz when I was hurting, I was like, man, >> cuz when I was hurting, I was like, man, it feels really self-righteous and it feels really self-righteous and it feels really self-righteous and hypocritical and judgmental. hypocritical and judgmental. hypocritical and judgmental. >> I got caught. But you >> I got caught. But you >> I got caught. But you >> right. I I had I have time had time for >> right. I I had I have time had time for >> right. I I had I have time had time for disappointment, grief, but even then the disappointment, grief, but even then the disappointment, grief, but even then the self-righteous tinge of the criticism, self-righteous tinge of the criticism, self-righteous tinge of the criticism, I'm going, you I'm going, you I'm going, you you're you're talking about us like you're you're talking about us like you're you're talking about us like that. You that. You that. You >> and I still hold that righteous >> and I still hold that righteous >> and I still hold that righteous indignation about that. Now, I hold in a indignation about that. Now, I hold in a indignation about that. Now, I hold in a beautiful way though because that's not beautiful way though because that's not beautiful way though because that's not my job.

my job. my job. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm not going to be the corrector of >> I'm not going to be the corrector of >> I'm not going to be the corrector of that. But you got yours coming, brother. that. But you got yours coming, brother. that. But you got yours coming, brother. Trust me. So, the self-righteous thing Trust me. So, the self-righteous thing Trust me. So, the self-righteous thing is a dead giveaway that you're like the is a dead giveaway that you're like the is a dead giveaway that you're like the most vitriolic critics I've had have most vitriolic critics I've had have most vitriolic critics I've had have either already crumbled or are crumbling either already crumbled or are crumbling either already crumbled or are crumbling as we speak in the background and as we speak in the background and as we speak in the background and they're going to come back someday and they're going to come back someday and they're going to come back someday and they're going to apologize. I'm going to they're going to apologize. I'm going to they're going to apologize. I'm going to accept it. accept it. accept it. But the people who are the most pointy, But the people who are the most pointy, But the people who are the most pointy, they got the most stuff always. You they got the most stuff always. You they got the most stuff always. You know, probably my biggest takeaway from know, probably my biggest takeaway from know, probably my biggest takeaway from this is just radical honesty this is just radical honesty this is just radical honesty >> with yourself, with the people closest >> with yourself, with the people closest >> with yourself, with the people closest to you. to you. to you. >> And you know, I look back on my 30s >> And you know, I look back on my 30s >> And you know, I look back on my 30s pre-burnout, pre-burnout, pre-burnout, >> and you know, we'll talk about the line >> and you know, we'll talk about the line >> and you know, we'll talk about the line in the future. in the future. in the future. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I hadn't crossed the line, whatever >> But I hadn't crossed the line, whatever >> But I hadn't crossed the line, whatever the line is. the line is. the line is. But there was too. This is all going to collapse.

too. This is all going to collapse. >> I'm like, I'm better than that. I'm >> I'm like, I'm better than that. I'm >> I'm like, I'm better than that. I'm smarter than that. For sure. I'm smarter than that. For sure. I'm smarter than that. For sure. I'm stronger than that. stronger than that. stronger than that. >> All day. All day. >> All day. All day. >> All day. All day. >> And then, you know, my body quit >> And then, you know, my body quit >> And then, you know, my body quit [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> and I went into kind of a rehab, not >> and I went into kind of a rehab, not >> and I went into kind of a rehab, not officially. Yeah. officially. Yeah. officially. Yeah. >> And life has never been the same 20 >> And life has never been the same 20 >> And life has never been the same 20 years later. And you know, it's a years later. And you know, it's a years later. And you know, it's a progressive thing. It's not like, oh, progressive thing. It's not like, oh, progressive thing. It's not like, oh, I'm now I'm perfect. You don't arrive. I'm now I'm perfect. You don't arrive. I'm now I'm perfect. You don't arrive. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> But it's a it's a more stable >> But it's a it's a more stable >> But it's a it's a more stable foundation. foundation. foundation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Than it was. And I'm just challenged >> Than it was. And I'm just challenged >> Than it was. And I'm just challenged personally, Carl. And this is your gift personally, Carl. And this is your gift personally, Carl. And this is your gift to me. to me. to me. >> And I think to people listening to be >> And I think to people listening to be >> And I think to people listening to be >> utterly honest >> utterly honest >> utterly honest >> with my wife, >> with my wife, >> with my wife, with my best friend, with my therapist. with my best friend, with my therapist. with my best friend, with my therapist. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz of all the lies we tell, >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz of all the lies we tell, >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz of all the lies we tell, the lies we tell ourselves are the most the lies we tell ourselves are the most the lies we tell ourselves are the most deadly. deadly. deadly. >> That's the person I lied to the most. >> That's the person I lied to the most. >> That's the person I lied to the most. >> Is it? >> Is it? >> Is it? >> That's what I became a I lied to myself. >> That's what I became a I lied to myself. >> That's what I became a I lied to myself. I mean, I've told this story where I I I mean, I've told this story where I I I mean, I've told this story where I I told my therapist, "Why didn't you come told my therapist, "Why didn't you come told my therapist, "Why didn't you come clean sooner?" I said, "I didn't want to clean sooner?" I said, "I didn't want to clean sooner?" I said, "I didn't want to hurt anybody." She said, "Oh, you're a hurt anybody." She said, "Oh, you're a hurt anybody." She said, "Oh, you're a hero. [laughter] hero. [laughter] hero. [laughter] >> Aren't we all in ministry? We're >> Aren't we all in ministry? We're >> Aren't we all in ministry? We're heroes."

heroes." heroes." >> And meanwhile, you're hurting everyone >> And meanwhile, you're hurting everyone >> And meanwhile, you're hurting everyone every day. You live with a lie. every day. You live with a lie. every day. You live with a lie. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But you didn't want to come clean >> But you didn't want to come clean >> But you didn't want to come clean because And that's when you start because And that's when you start because And that's when you start realizing, "Oh, okay. I I lied to realizing, "Oh, okay. I I lied to realizing, "Oh, okay. I I lied to myself. So part of my radical honest myself. So part of my radical honest myself. So part of my radical honest life is out of uh there's no other life is out of uh there's no other life is out of uh there's no other option for me. So if you have spent option for me. So if you have spent option for me. So if you have spent decades of your life lying, there is no decades of your life lying, there is no decades of your life lying, there is no other way but radical honesty. And it's other way but radical honesty. And it's other way but radical honesty. And it's dangerous in the best way. It's like I dangerous in the best way. It's like I dangerous in the best way. It's like I can't I I just and I'm in this from my can't I I just and I'm in this from my can't I I just and I'm in this from my own personal conviction. I take it all own personal conviction. I take it all own personal conviction. I take it all the way down to the le the to the to the the way down to the le the to the to the the way down to the le the to the to the to the easy casual combos. Like I'm not to the easy casual combos. Like I'm not to the easy casual combos. Like I'm not going to say see you later because it's going to say see you later because it's going to say see you later because it's probably not honest because you might probably not honest because you might probably not honest because you might not. going to say it's been good to see not. going to say it's been good to see not. going to say it's been good to see you. you. you. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it's that didactic for me and it has to >> it's that didactic for me and it has to >> it's that didactic for me and it has to be. be. be. >> Carl, this has been such a rich >> Carl, this has been such a rich >> Carl, this has been such a rich conversation. conversation. conversation. >> We've gone a lot of places. >> We've gone a lot of places. >> We've gone a lot of places. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I feel like there's still more to >> And I feel like there's still more to >> And I feel like there's still more to talk about. Maybe we'll do a round two talk about. Maybe we'll do a round two talk about. Maybe we'll do a round two at some point. But thank you. And part at some point. But thank you. And part at some point. But thank you. And part of the >> I was going to say the joy of having a >> I was going to say the joy of having a conversation. This is not joyful for conversation. This is not joyful for conversation. This is not joyful for you. It's not joyful for the church.

you. It's not joyful for the church. you. It's not joyful for the church. It's not joyful for all the people who It's not joyful for all the people who It's not joyful for all the people who have been deeply deeply hurt. have been deeply deeply hurt. have been deeply deeply hurt. >> But part of the the health of a >> But part of the the health of a >> But part of the the health of a conversation like this, conversation like this, conversation like this, >> well, it's your podcast. You bring the >> well, it's your podcast. You bring the >> well, it's your podcast. You bring the light light light >> to the darkness. >> to the darkness. >> to the darkness. >> And I think you've helped us see how it >> And I think you've helped us see how it >> And I think you've helped us see how it came to be. And yeah, you clarified a came to be. And yeah, you clarified a came to be. And yeah, you clarified a few things, but few things, but few things, but >> I'm I'm firmly convinced 99.9% of people >> I'm I'm firmly convinced 99.9% of people >> I'm I'm firmly convinced 99.9% of people who get into ministry, Carl, are doing who get into ministry, Carl, are doing who get into ministry, Carl, are doing it because they feel a call from God. it because they feel a call from God. it because they feel a call from God. They're doing the right thing. They're They're doing the right thing. They're They're doing the right thing. They're going to make a difference. going to make a difference. going to make a difference. >> 100% agree. >> 100% agree. >> 100% agree. >> And I think most of the time that >> And I think most of the time that >> And I think most of the time that there's a breach, a fall like you there's a breach, a fall like you there's a breach, a fall like you experienced. experienced. experienced. >> It's kind of a deer in the headlights >> It's kind of a deer in the headlights >> It's kind of a deer in the headlights with some unhealthy habits. with some unhealthy habits. with some unhealthy habits. >> Yeah. And not an excuse, but you know, >> Yeah. And not an excuse, but you know, >> Yeah. And not an excuse, but you know, if we can stop some of this long before if we can stop some of this long before if we can stop some of this long before it does harm. it does harm. it does harm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What a joy. >> What a joy. >> What a joy. >> That's the joy. Maybe >> That's the joy. Maybe >> That's the joy. Maybe >> I um Are you Yeah, it so well said. You >> I um Are you Yeah, it so well said. You >> I um Are you Yeah, it so well said. You were going to ask me about friendships.

were going to ask me about friendships. were going to ask me about friendships. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that because I I I actually wanted to answer. because I I I actually wanted to answer. because I I I actually wanted to answer. >> We touched on it, but go ahead because >> We touched on it, but go ahead because >> We touched on it, but go ahead because what happened with your friendships when what happened with your friendships when what happened with your friendships when everything collapsed? It's a it's a good everything collapsed? It's a it's a good everything collapsed? It's a it's a good thing to bring up because I I like to thing to bring up because I I like to thing to bring up because I I like to tell leaders a couple things. One, um if tell leaders a couple things. One, um if tell leaders a couple things. One, um if you're the boss of an organization you're the boss of an organization you're the boss of an organization >> and you think you have friends that >> and you think you have friends that >> and you think you have friends that don't get impacted by that, you're just don't get impacted by that, you're just don't get impacted by that, you're just being delusional. being delusional. being delusional. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I talked a lot about like, you know, >> So, I talked a lot about like, you know, >> So, I talked a lot about like, you know, my best friend, he also works for me. I my best friend, he also works for me. I my best friend, he also works for me. I go, okay, cool. Let me just tell you go, okay, cool. Let me just tell you go, okay, cool. Let me just tell you about my experience with that. Um it's about my experience with that. Um it's about my experience with that. Um it's not the same. It will not be the same. I not the same. It will not be the same. I not the same. It will not be the same. I don't care if you knew him since you don't care if you knew him since you don't care if you knew him since you were two years old. If you are the boss, were two years old. If you are the boss, were two years old. If you are the boss, nobody is the their normal self around nobody is the their normal self around nobody is the their normal self around you. They cannot be. you. They cannot be. you. They cannot be. >> They're not going to tell you 100% of >> They're not going to tell you 100% of >> They're not going to tell you 100% of the truth. the truth. the truth. >> They might, but it just at the end of >> They might, but it just at the end of >> They might, but it just at the end of the day, you're their employer. So, you the day, you're their employer. So, you the day, you're their employer. So, you got to factor that in. It's the first got to factor that in. It's the first got to factor that in. It's the first thing. And then with ministry stuff, thing. And then with ministry stuff, thing. And then with ministry stuff, Carrie, I think there's there's a couple Carrie, I think there's there's a couple Carrie, I think there's there's a couple things I want to say about this because, things I want to say about this because, things I want to say about this because, >> you know, so much I I've let a lot of it >> you know, so much I I've let a lot of it >> you know, so much I I've let a lot of it go and I speak nebulously sometimes on go and I speak nebulously sometimes on go and I speak nebulously sometimes on purpose, but this is a good time because purpose, but this is a good time because purpose, but this is a good time because there's a lot of pastors watching. I there's a lot of pastors watching. I there's a lot of pastors watching. I think um think um think um I I hold it in a beautiful place. I was I I hold it in a beautiful place. I was I I hold it in a beautiful place. I was extraordinarily surprised. You know, I extraordinarily surprised. You know, I extraordinarily surprised. You know, I only I had two best friends in ministry only I had two best friends in ministry only I had two best friends in ministry and you know, it was I broke that and you know, it was I broke that and you know, it was I broke that relationship trustwise and I own that.

relationship trustwise and I own that. relationship trustwise and I own that. Uh the reactions definitely surprised me Uh the reactions definitely surprised me Uh the reactions definitely surprised me and I' I've gotten healthy enough to say and I' I've gotten healthy enough to say and I' I've gotten healthy enough to say it's okay to say that. Like it doesn't it's okay to say that. Like it doesn't it's okay to say that. Like it doesn't matter right or wrong. I just didn't matter right or wrong. I just didn't matter right or wrong. I just didn't think that I had relationships that think that I had relationships that think that I had relationships that would cut people off like that. and and would cut people off like that. and and would cut people off like that. and and >> your phone stopped ringing. >> your phone stopped ringing. >> your phone stopped ringing. >> I mean, from these particular friends >> I mean, from these particular friends >> I mean, from these particular friends that I loved. Otherwise, I had people that I loved. Otherwise, I had people that I loved. Otherwise, I had people show up for me all day long and it thank show up for me all day long and it thank show up for me all day long and it thank God for it. But it's people, you know, God for it. But it's people, you know, God for it. But it's people, you know, it's that it's that 27 great things and it's that it's that 27 great things and it's that it's that 27 great things and those two. And so those I learned a lot those two. And so those I learned a lot those two. And so those I learned a lot through. I learned a lot about I learned through. I learned a lot about I learned through. I learned a lot about I learned a lot about um a lot about um a lot about um how I want to have friendships in the how I want to have friendships in the how I want to have friendships in the future. I learned a lot about um future. I learned a lot about um future. I learned a lot about um how to manage expectation. Now I learned how to manage expectation. Now I learned how to manage expectation. Now I learned a lot about my side of the tracks a lot about my side of the tracks a lot about my side of the tracks because that's where only way you cannot because that's where only way you cannot because that's where only way you cannot be bitter is if you do the right thing be bitter is if you do the right thing be bitter is if you do the right thing which is to worry about your role in it. which is to worry about your role in it. which is to worry about your role in it. So at the hardest moments with some of So at the hardest moments with some of So at the hardest moments with some of my friendships that I lost, I was taught my friendships that I lost, I was taught my friendships that I lost, I was taught well enough to know my side of the well enough to know my side of the well enough to know my side of the tracks includes this and that makes this tracks includes this and that makes this tracks includes this and that makes this easier to understand. Doesn't make it easier to understand. Doesn't make it easier to understand. Doesn't make it right, but I get it. And here's one right, but I get it. And here's one right, but I get it. And here's one thing I did learn. So there are people thing I did learn. So there are people thing I did learn. So there are people who when they see a preacher fall, they who when they see a preacher fall, they who when they see a preacher fall, they cannot listen to their sermons, right?

cannot listen to their sermons, right? cannot listen to their sermons, right? >> Can't do it. >> Can't do it. >> Can't do it. >> Whole thing's done. >> Whole thing's done. >> Whole thing's done. >> Now on face value, we all can probably >> Now on face value, we all can probably >> Now on face value, we all can probably understand that doesn't make any sense understand that doesn't make any sense understand that doesn't make any sense logically. Um, but from this angle, logically. Um, but from this angle, logically. Um, but from this angle, here's how I now hold it. Because before here's how I now hold it. Because before here's how I now hold it. Because before I would try to tell people, dude, my I would try to tell people, dude, my I would try to tell people, dude, my sermons are great. Like I preached about sermons are great. Like I preached about sermons are great. Like I preached about Jesus. He didn't fall. The I I stand by Jesus. He didn't fall. The I I stand by Jesus. He didn't fall. The I I stand by every freaking sermon I've ever every freaking sermon I've ever every freaking sermon I've ever preached. proud of them honestly because preached. proud of them honestly because preached. proud of them honestly because I did my job which is the point to the I did my job which is the point to the I did my job which is the point to the one who can change everybody and now one who can change everybody and now one who can change everybody and now when people are like I you know I can't when people are like I you know I can't when people are like I you know I can't listen to that pastor I was like I get listen to that pastor I was like I get listen to that pastor I was like I get it because here's why there's uh one it because here's why there's uh one it because here's why there's uh one friend who and I had to I had to do some friend who and I had to I had to do some friend who and I had to I had to do some work on this Carrie because a lot of my work on this Carrie because a lot of my work on this Carrie because a lot of my relationships in ministry I was paving a relationships in ministry I was paving a relationships in ministry I was paving a way for somebody else. It's part of my way for somebody else. It's part of my way for somebody else. It's part of my honor was to create space for people, honor was to create space for people, honor was to create space for people, promote people, and a lot of my you promote people, and a lot of my you promote people, and a lot of my you outside of the two guys I would say were outside of the two guys I would say were outside of the two guys I would say were my best friends. Everybody else was my my best friends. Everybody else was my my best friends. Everybody else was my friends, but I I was cutting ground for friends, but I I was cutting ground for friends, but I I was cutting ground for them. them. them. >> I was promoting them. I was investing >> I was promoting them. I was investing >> I was promoting them. I was investing into them. So when those kind of guys into them. So when those kind of guys into them. So when those kind of guys didn't show up, that was hard didn't show up, that was hard didn't show up, that was hard >> because I was like, you no way like if >> because I was like, you no way like if >> because I was like, you no way like if anything be disappointed. But to act anything be disappointed. But to act anything be disappointed. But to act like that was something I had to manage.

like that was something I had to manage. like that was something I had to manage. That's all me. But there was a guy who That's all me. But there was a guy who That's all me. But there was a guy who came to preach. Me and Laura were at a came to preach. Me and Laura were at a came to preach. Me and Laura were at a church and there's a guy that was church and there's a guy that was church and there's a guy that was probably that one layer away. Like I we probably that one layer away. Like I we probably that one layer away. Like I we were very close friends. I gave him our were very close friends. I gave him our were very close friends. I gave him our platform. I definitely backed him to the platform. I definitely backed him to the platform. I definitely backed him to the hilt hilt hilt >> and this guy never reached out and it >> and this guy never reached out and it >> and this guy never reached out and it was nobody's this isn't sympathy. I'm was nobody's this isn't sympathy. I'm was nobody's this isn't sympathy. I'm just telling you how it was. Never just telling you how it was. Never just telling you how it was. Never reached out one time. I see him and you reached out one time. I see him and you reached out one time. I see him and you know and then this guy got up to preach know and then this guy got up to preach know and then this guy got up to preach a message Carrie about the time in the a message Carrie about the time in the a message Carrie about the time in the Old Testament where in the New Testament Old Testament where in the New Testament Old Testament where in the New Testament where Paul's preaching somebody falls where Paul's preaching somebody falls where Paul's preaching somebody falls out of a window and he talks about how out of a window and he talks about how out of a window and he talks about how we got to be the kind of church that we got to be the kind of church that we got to be the kind of church that goes and picks that person up and I'm goes and picks that person up and I'm goes and picks that person up and I'm talking about and I'm I and Laura was talking about and I'm I and Laura was talking about and I'm I and Laura was nauseous. I was nauseous and I wanted to nauseous. I was nauseous and I wanted to nauseous. I was nauseous and I wanted to stand up and say, "Are you kidding me? I stand up and say, "Are you kidding me? I stand up and say, "Are you kidding me? I don't care about the message. You're my don't care about the message. You're my don't care about the message. You're my problem." And I went, "Oh, problem." And I went, "Oh, problem." And I went, "Oh, okay. I will never tell anybody that my okay. I will never tell anybody that my okay. I will never tell anybody that my messages are good. Got to get through me messages are good. Got to get through me messages are good. Got to get through me cuz I know how it feels in this moment. cuz I know how it feels in this moment. cuz I know how it feels in this moment. What this guy was preaching, not What this guy was preaching, not What this guy was preaching, not interested cuz you're a fake, bro.

interested cuz you're a fake, bro. interested cuz you're a fake, bro. Get out of here." Get out of here." Get out of here." >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> You're a fake. I don't I can't even hear >> You're a fake. I don't I can't even hear >> You're a fake. I don't I can't even hear about Jesus because you bailed on me and about Jesus because you bailed on me and about Jesus because you bailed on me and my wife and you're going to get up there my wife and you're going to get up there my wife and you're going to get up there and preach that message in front of us. and preach that message in front of us. and preach that message in front of us. And it just made and I went, "Okay, let And it just made and I went, "Okay, let And it just made and I went, "Okay, let me I'm just being honest. this isn't me I'm just being honest. this isn't me I'm just being honest. this isn't right. I'm just telling you how I felt. right. I'm just telling you how I felt. right. I'm just telling you how I felt. And I looked at my wife and I went, And I looked at my wife and I went, And I looked at my wife and I went, I got to I got to get something good out I got to I got to get something good out I got to I got to get something good out of this or I'm not going to be able to of this or I'm not going to be able to of this or I'm not going to be able to make it. And that was the revelation I make it. And that was the revelation I make it. And that was the revelation I walked away with cuz I get it now. walked away with cuz I get it now. walked away with cuz I get it now. >> I know that's why people can't listen to >> I know that's why people can't listen to >> I know that's why people can't listen to your messages. Watch your messages your messages. Watch your messages your messages. Watch your messages because you let them down. because you let them down. because you let them down. >> It not everybody. >> It not everybody. >> It not everybody. >> And I understand it. And there's people >> And I understand it. And there's people >> And I understand it. And there's people who are like, but before I would have who are like, but before I would have who are like, but before I would have been like, push through that and now I been like, push through that and now I been like, push through that and now I go, hey, at your own time. Like I'm go, hey, at your own time. Like I'm go, hey, at your own time. Like I'm telling you, I'm a broken messenger. I telling you, I'm a broken messenger. I telling you, I'm a broken messenger. I get that. But if the thought of my face get that. But if the thought of my face get that. But if the thought of my face and what I did, how I betrayed my wife and what I did, how I betrayed my wife and what I did, how I betrayed my wife and I betrayed my children and now I'm and I betrayed my children and now I'm and I betrayed my children and now I'm going to tell you to go and preach how I going to tell you to go and preach how I going to tell you to go and preach how I was preaching and do all that stuff and was preaching and do all that stuff and was preaching and do all that stuff and you just can't land it. It's okay you just can't land it. It's okay you just can't land it. It's okay because I can't land it with that guy. because I can't land it with that guy. because I can't land it with that guy. I'm not interested in anything he has to I'm not interested in anything he has to I'm not interested in anything he has to say. And I I don't listen to there's say. And I I don't listen to there's say. And I I don't listen to there's maybe one or two guys, but that goes for maybe one or two guys, but that goes for maybe one or two guys, but that goes for a lot of my friends of that era. Like I a lot of my friends of that era. Like I a lot of my friends of that era. Like I don't want to hear them preach. I'm not don't want to hear them preach. I'm not don't want to hear them preach. I'm not interested. And that's not judging you.

interested. And that's not judging you. interested. And that's not judging you. I just also know you. I know my I just also know you. I know my I just also know you. I know my experience with you, too. I let you experience with you, too. I let you experience with you, too. I let you down. down and broke your trust. But but down. down and broke your trust. But but down. down and broke your trust. But but I'm still human, Laura. And I my kids, I'm still human, Laura. And I my kids, I'm still human, Laura. And I my kids, they they have to run their own journey. they they have to run their own journey. they they have to run their own journey. They're they, you know, they have to They're they, you know, they have to They're they, you know, they have to work through that. work through that. work through that. >> They have to process all of that. >> They have to process all of that. >> They have to process all of that. >> But that day in church in this side of >> But that day in church in this side of >> But that day in church in this side of the tracks when it just I didn't know it the tracks when it just I didn't know it the tracks when it just I didn't know it was happening, didn't know it was was happening, didn't know it was was happening, didn't know it was coming. And it just all just happened at coming. And it just all just happened at coming. And it just all just happened at one time. And I just thought maybe he'll one time. And I just thought maybe he'll one time. And I just thought maybe he'll get up there and preach about, I don't get up there and preach about, I don't get up there and preach about, I don't know, restoration or something, know, restoration or something, know, restoration or something, whatever. But to preach that showed me whatever. But to preach that showed me whatever. But to preach that showed me that world is still insane. that world is still insane. that world is still insane. >> Absolutely. Cuz bro, >> Absolutely. Cuz bro, >> Absolutely. Cuz bro, >> but does that make you a cynic about the >> but does that make you a cynic about the >> but does that make you a cynic about the church as a whole? church as a whole? church as a whole? >> No. Because I love there's nothing like >> No. Because I love there's nothing like >> No. Because I love there's nothing like the church. Where where else can broken the church. Where where else can broken the church. Where where else can broken people do great things? people do great things? people do great things? >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] No. And this is this is the tension of No. And this is this is the tension of No. And this is this is the tension of our age, our age, our age, >> right? Because you've got the people who >> right? Because you've got the people who >> right? Because you've got the people who are like, "See, somebody could listen to are like, "See, somebody could listen to are like, "See, somebody could listen to this conversation for two hours this conversation for two hours this conversation for two hours >> and go, see, all megaurch pastors are >> and go, see, all megaurch pastors are >> and go, see, all megaurch pastors are fake." Right? fake." Right? fake." Right? >> But I know that's not true. >> But I know that's not true. >> But I know that's not true. >> It's not true. >> It's not true. >> It's not true. >> It's not true. >> It's not true. >> It's not true. >> And yet, maybe there's some who have >> And yet, maybe there's some who have >> And yet, maybe there's some who have hurt you. Maybe there's some who've got hurt you. Maybe there's some who've got hurt you. Maybe there's some who've got I I don't know. I'm not interested.

I I don't know. I'm not interested. I I don't know. I'm not interested. >> Here's my takeway. Um >> Here's my takeway. Um >> Here's my takeway. Um >> I wanted to do work so I wouldn't be >> I wanted to do work so I wouldn't be >> I wanted to do work so I wouldn't be like that. I want to be able to hear like that. I want to be able to hear like that. I want to be able to hear people that I even have been personally people that I even have been personally people that I even have been personally hurt by. I still want to be big enough hurt by. I still want to be big enough hurt by. I still want to be big enough >> to be able to push through that because >> to be able to push through that because >> to be able to push through that because what's my line now? We go back to the what's my line now? We go back to the what's my line now? We go back to the line again. So like my line I told line again. So like my line I told line again. So like my line I told myself on that Sunday was, "Well, that myself on that Sunday was, "Well, that myself on that Sunday was, "Well, that guy hurt me so I can no longer listen to guy hurt me so I can no longer listen to guy hurt me so I can no longer listen to him." I'm not comfortable with that him." I'm not comfortable with that him." I'm not comfortable with that line. line. line. >> That's not who you want to be. No, >> That's not who you want to be. No, >> That's not who you want to be. No, >> but it's who you are right now or in >> but it's who you are right now or in >> but it's who you are right now or in that day. that day. that day. >> But that's who I am. So, what do I want >> But that's who I am. So, what do I want >> But that's who I am. So, what do I want to do about this? This guy is a fraud. to do about this? This guy is a fraud. to do about this? This guy is a fraud. He preached a message he has never even He preached a message he has never even He preached a message he has never even smelt in his life like he has. We got to smelt in his life like he has. We got to smelt in his life like he has. We got to pick people up off the ground. We can't pick people up off the ground. We can't pick people up off the ground. We can't be ashamed of them. What? be ashamed of them. What? be ashamed of them. What? >> That's who you are. >> That's who you are. >> That's who you are. Are you kidding me? And then I was like, Are you kidding me? And then I was like, Are you kidding me? And then I was like, guess who can't be throwing those guess who can't be throwing those guess who can't be throwing those stones? stones? stones? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This critic. What am I going to do with >> This critic. What am I going to do with >> This critic. What am I going to do with this tension? I know I'm wrong, but what this tension? I know I'm wrong, but what this tension? I know I'm wrong, but what do I do with all these feelings now? I do I do with all these feelings now? I do I do with all these feelings now? I know better. I'm gonna bring him out. know better. I'm gonna bring him out. know better. I'm gonna bring him out. I'm gonna talk about him. I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about him. I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about him. I'm gonna bring him into the light. I'm gonna talk bring him into the light. I'm gonna talk bring him into the light. I'm gonna talk to Carrie about him and call someone to Carrie about him and call someone to Carrie about him and call someone that's wiser. I'm gonna say it's how I that's wiser. I'm gonna say it's how I that's wiser. I'm gonna say it's how I feel. I know it's not right. I got to feel. I know it's not right. I got to feel. I know it's not right. I got to get it out. He's aing fraud.

get it out. He's aing fraud. get it out. He's aing fraud. >> And he's not a fraud. He's going through >> And he's not a fraud. He's going through >> And he's not a fraud. He's going through his own stuff. It's like I always told his own stuff. It's like I always told his own stuff. It's like I always told Lord, I'm going non- therapy me for 30 Lord, I'm going non- therapy me for 30 Lord, I'm going non- therapy me for 30 seconds. Give me a break. Boom. Boom. seconds. Give me a break. Boom. Boom. seconds. Give me a break. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Now, therapized Boom. Boom. Boom. Now, therapized Boom. Boom. Boom. Now, therapized [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] version. And we live in that tension. Uh version. And we live in that tension. Uh version. And we live in that tension. Uh I had my heart broken a couple years ago I had my heart broken a couple years ago I had my heart broken a couple years ago with somebody just shocked that was with somebody just shocked that was with somebody just shocked that was living a double life and done a lot of living a double life and done a lot of living a double life and done a lot of work with that person and you know I had work with that person and you know I had work with that person and you know I had lots of conversations with that person lots of conversations with that person lots of conversations with that person >> and you look back on the body of work >> and you look back on the body of work >> and you look back on the body of work >> and I've talked to other people who were >> and I've talked to other people who were >> and I've talked to other people who were on staff with a senior pastor who quote on staff with a senior pastor who quote on staff with a senior pastor who quote fell fell fell >> and it's such a tension to be managed >> and it's such a tension to be managed >> and it's such a tension to be managed but but but >> you know >> you know >> you know >> unless they were con man from day one, >> unless they were con man from day one, >> unless they were con man from day one, then I'm like, "Yeah, throw the whole then I'm like, "Yeah, throw the whole then I'm like, "Yeah, throw the whole thing out." But I learned and grew under thing out." But I learned and grew under thing out." But I learned and grew under some of those leaders and some of those leaders and some of those leaders and >> I had a real friendship with this person >> I had a real friendship with this person >> I had a real friendship with this person and I didn't know and I tried to be and I didn't know and I tried to be and I didn't know and I tried to be there for him and that sort of thing and there for him and that sort of thing and there for him and that sort of thing and when it all fell apart, but when it all fell apart, but when it all fell apart, but >> like you look back and it's like, no, >> like you look back and it's like, no, >> like you look back and it's like, no, >> some of those things I learned are >> some of those things I learned are >> some of those things I learned are actually true and they're good and what actually true and they're good and what actually true and they're good and what he did is despicable.

he did is despicable. he did is despicable. >> Two things can be true. >> Two things can be true. >> Two things can be true. >> It's it's such a thing and that's, you >> It's it's such a thing and that's, you >> It's it's such a thing and that's, you know, know, know, I think even naming the tension. I think even naming the tension. I think even naming the tension. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> That we're in because the headlines are >> That we're in because the headlines are >> That we're in because the headlines are always one way or the other. always one way or the other. always one way or the other. >> It's what you were feeling. It's like >> It's what you were feeling. It's like >> It's what you were feeling. It's like don't listen to anything and that guy's don't listen to anything and that guy's don't listen to anything and that guy's a fraud. a fraud. a fraud. >> Because here here's where I landed with >> Because here here's where I landed with >> Because here here's where I landed with that car. I I don't want that. I want that car. I I don't want that. I want that car. I I don't want that. I want people to listen to what I preached and people to listen to what I preached and people to listen to what I preached and believe it. Therefore, if that's true, I believe it. Therefore, if that's true, I believe it. Therefore, if that's true, I cannot hold this against this guy like cannot hold this against this guy like cannot hold this against this guy like that. that. that. >> I'm not there yet. [clears throat] I'm >> I'm not there yet. [clears throat] I'm >> I'm not there yet. [clears throat] I'm working on it. That one stung and I'm working on it. That one stung and I'm working on it. That one stung and I'm not satisfied. So, I'm going to get to not satisfied. So, I'm going to get to not satisfied. So, I'm going to get to the place where I can listen to a sermon the place where I can listen to a sermon the place where I can listen to a sermon from someone who has not lined up how I from someone who has not lined up how I from someone who has not lined up how I want them to line up and still be able want them to line up and still be able want them to line up and still be able to hear God through it. So, if I want to hear God through it. So, if I want to hear God through it. So, if I want someone else to do that, I got to go someone else to do that, I got to go someone else to do that, I got to go first. first. first. >> Okay. Anybody who's not a pastor, who's >> Okay. Anybody who's not a pastor, who's >> Okay. Anybody who's not a pastor, who's had church hurt, listen up because this had church hurt, listen up because this had church hurt, listen up because this is bigger than just us. is bigger than just us. is bigger than just us. >> What am I robbing myself of if that's my >> What am I robbing myself of if that's my >> What am I robbing myself of if that's my line? That's what I tell people all the line? That's what I tell people all the line? That's what I tell people all the time. Like, I time. Like, I time. Like, I >> never go back to church because I said, >> never go back to church because I said, >> never go back to church because I said, "Cool, cool. What's it going to cost you "Cool, cool. What's it going to cost you "Cool, cool. What's it going to cost you to trust again? What's it going to cost to trust again? What's it going to cost to trust again? What's it going to cost you to not trust again? Which one are you to not trust again? Which one are you to not trust again? Which one are you more comfortable with?

you more comfortable with? you more comfortable with? >> And that's the journey. It is so easy to >> And that's the journey. It is so easy to >> And that's the journey. It is so easy to be a cynic and I have to fight it if not be a cynic and I have to fight it if not be a cynic and I have to fight it if not daily, weekly. daily, weekly. daily, weekly. >> But I want to be the guy who hopes >> But I want to be the guy who hopes >> But I want to be the guy who hopes again, trusts again, believes again again, trusts again, believes again again, trusts again, believes again because dude, that's the gospel. because dude, that's the gospel. because dude, that's the gospel. >> It's it's it's the gospel, >> It's it's it's the gospel, >> It's it's it's the gospel, >> Carrie. It's the woman that's been, you >> Carrie. It's the woman that's been, you >> Carrie. It's the woman that's been, you know, betrayed by a husband. I will know, betrayed by a husband. I will know, betrayed by a husband. I will never trust a man again. She's not never trust a man again. She's not never trust a man again. She's not wrong. She's not crazy. and she'll never wrong. She's not crazy. and she'll never wrong. She's not crazy. and she'll never what what else might be lost with that. what what else might be lost with that. what what else might be lost with that. Just make sure you want to see it across Just make sure you want to see it across Just make sure you want to see it across the board. the board. the board. And I that's how I gauge everything. And I that's how I gauge everything. And I that's how I gauge everything. Like if I take this one moment and I Like if I take this one moment and I Like if I take this one moment and I would stretch it across my life, am I would stretch it across my life, am I would stretch it across my life, am I comfortable with that? [snorts] Well, I comfortable with that? [snorts] Well, I comfortable with that? [snorts] Well, I live that life. I had a bunch of good live that life. I had a bunch of good live that life. I had a bunch of good stuff, but I had moments where I didn't stuff, but I had moments where I didn't stuff, but I had moments where I didn't think it were going to bleed over. They think it were going to bleed over. They think it were going to bleed over. They all bleed over. I can't they they all bleed over. I can't they they all bleed over. I can't they they they're going to bleed over. I I would they're going to bleed over. I I would they're going to bleed over. I I would tell you the amazing pastors that listen tell you the amazing pastors that listen tell you the amazing pastors that listen to you and they should be. I think to you and they should be. I think to you and they should be. I think you're you're one of the most you're you're one of the most you're you're one of the most reasonable, objective, kind, wise people reasonable, objective, kind, wise people reasonable, objective, kind, wise people on the market and I'm grateful for you. on the market and I'm grateful for you. on the market and I'm grateful for you. I would say consider teaching people how I would say consider teaching people how I would say consider teaching people how to think more, to think more, to think more, >> but that would require you to be >> but that would require you to be >> but that would require you to be thinking correctly. And the number one thinking correctly. And the number one thinking correctly. And the number one place of dysfunctional thinking in place of dysfunctional thinking in place of dysfunctional thinking in ministry is at the top of the top of the ministry is at the top of the top of the ministry is at the top of the top of the food chain. You know, it's we live in an food chain. You know, it's we live in an food chain. You know, it's we live in an age where a lot of people want to tell age where a lot of people want to tell age where a lot of people want to tell you what to think. It's the worst. You you what to think. It's the worst. You you what to think. It's the worst. You got to learn how to think. your your got to learn how to think. your your got to learn how to think. your your colleague across the city, Tim Keller, colleague across the city, Tim Keller, colleague across the city, Tim Keller, did such a beautiful job of that.

did such a beautiful job of that. did such a beautiful job of that. >> Guess who was always awesome to me? Tim >> Guess who was always awesome to me? Tim >> Guess who was always awesome to me? Tim Keller. Keller. Keller. >> Was he always awesome to you? >> Was he always awesome to you? >> Was he always awesome to you? >> I sent an email to every pastor >> I sent an email to every pastor >> I sent an email to every pastor [clears throat] in New York when I got [clears throat] in New York when I got [clears throat] in New York when I got there. Do you know which one wrote me there. Do you know which one wrote me there. Do you know which one wrote me back? back? back? >> Tim Keller. >> Tim Keller. >> Tim Keller. >> Every pastor trying to do my ecumenical >> Every pastor trying to do my ecumenical >> Every pastor trying to do my ecumenical [clears throat] duty. I don't want to [clears throat] duty. I don't want to [clears throat] duty. I don't want to be, you know, there's already we're be, you know, there's already we're be, you know, there's already we're already getting criticism. They haven't already getting criticism. They haven't already getting criticism. They haven't even started yet. Carrie, look at these even started yet. Carrie, look at these even started yet. Carrie, look at these guys are going to come in. They're going guys are going to come in. They're going guys are going to come in. They're going to take our sheep. I remember thinking, to take our sheep. I remember thinking, to take our sheep. I remember thinking, but take your sheep. That's a weird but take your sheep. That's a weird but take your sheep. That's a weird thing to say. Anyway, [laughter] thing to say. Anyway, [laughter] thing to say. Anyway, [laughter] but I'm going to reach out. I'm going to but I'm going to reach out. I'm going to but I'm going to reach out. I'm going to I'm going to do this. Tim Keller, Carl, I'm going to do this. Tim Keller, Carl, I'm going to do this. Tim Keller, Carl, come see me at my office. I sat and the come see me at my office. I sat and the come see me at my office. I sat and the most beautiful conversation. Started a most beautiful conversation. Started a most beautiful conversation. Started a beautiful relationship with him. But beautiful relationship with him. But beautiful relationship with him. But it's always funny, it's always funny, it's always funny, >> you know, some of these guys like Craig, >> you know, some of these guys like Craig, >> you know, some of these guys like Craig, Tim, you you see where what they've done Tim, you you see where what they've done Tim, you you see where what they've done and they're consistent throughout the and they're consistent throughout the and they're consistent throughout the board. board. board. >> The guys didn't write me back. You know, >> The guys didn't write me back. You know, >> The guys didn't write me back. You know, >> the behind the scenes is the same as the >> the behind the scenes is the same as the >> the behind the scenes is the same as the on camera and often even on camera and often even on camera and often even a little more delightful than you'd a little more delightful than you'd a little more delightful than you'd suspect. That is a great way to put suspect. That is a great way to put suspect. That is a great way to put that, that, that, >> you know, wow that you can see it on and >> you know, wow that you can see it on and >> you know, wow that you can see it on and it's like oh that was interesting and it's like oh that was interesting and it's like oh that was interesting and the message but then you meet the guy the message but then you meet the guy the message but then you meet the guy and it's like and it's like and it's like >> very impressed. Yeah.

>> very impressed. Yeah. >> very impressed. Yeah. >> Integrity. >> Integrity. >> Integrity. >> Integrity >> Integrity >> Integrity >> right which is >> right which is >> right which is >> what if you look at the definition of >> what if you look at the definition of >> what if you look at the definition of that word this process over the last that word this process over the last that word this process over the last five six years for you five six years for you five six years for you >> y >> y >> y >> five I guess has been >> five I guess has been >> five I guess has been >> reintegrating what God created in you. >> reintegrating what God created in you. >> reintegrating what God created in you. >> Integrity. >> Integrity. >> Integrity. >> Integrity. Integrity. You're integrating >> Integrity. Integrity. You're integrating >> Integrity. Integrity. You're integrating it. My my definition of integrity is it. My my definition of integrity is it. My my definition of integrity is doing what I say when I say I'm going to doing what I say when I say I'm going to doing what I say when I say I'm going to do it every single time. do it every single time. do it every single time. That is it. Take the moral out of it. That is it. Take the moral out of it. That is it. Take the moral out of it. Take the like Carl, do you live with Take the like Carl, do you live with Take the like Carl, do you live with integrity? integrity? integrity? >> Yes. And I'm becoming a man of integrity >> Yes. And I'm becoming a man of integrity >> Yes. And I'm becoming a man of integrity more and more every day. more and more every day. more and more every day. >> So, did did I do what I said when I said >> So, did did I do what I said when I said >> So, did did I do what I said when I said I was going to do it every time? I was going to do it every time? I was going to do it every time? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And when I don't, I remain a man of >> And when I don't, I remain a man of >> And when I don't, I remain a man of integrity when I own it and I bring it integrity when I own it and I bring it integrity when I own it and I bring it back into alignment back into alignment back into alignment >> to act like there's a man that has this, >> to act like there's a man that has this, >> to act like there's a man that has this, you know, every day. I think the life of you know, every day. I think the life of you know, every day. I think the life of integrity is constant adjustment. integrity is constant adjustment. integrity is constant adjustment. Constant, constant, constant, constant. Constant, constant, constant, constant. Constant, constant, constant, constant. So for me, I was had integrity, got out So for me, I was had integrity, got out So for me, I was had integrity, got out of alignment and kept on going, of alignment and kept on going, of alignment and kept on going, >> out of alignment. Imagine if that worked >> out of alignment. Imagine if that worked >> out of alignment. Imagine if that worked with your spine like that. [laughter] with your spine like that. [laughter] with your spine like that. [laughter] >> I now I now know integrity is like this >> I now I now know integrity is like this >> I now I now know integrity is like this every day. Chiropractic. Yeah.

every day. Chiropractic. Yeah. every day. Chiropractic. Yeah. >> Okay. Pretty great day. This is I I I I >> Okay. Pretty great day. This is I I I I >> Okay. Pretty great day. This is I I I I showed up at uh 10:15 and I told Carrie showed up at uh 10:15 and I told Carrie showed up at uh 10:15 and I told Carrie I'd be there at 10. I'd be there at 10. I'd be there at 10. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Carrie, I'm sorry. >> Carrie, I'm sorry. >> Carrie, I'm sorry. >> No, you were there early and I >> No, you were there early and I >> No, you were there early and I >> I'm sorry that I was not here when I >> I'm sorry that I was not here when I >> I'm sorry that I was not here when I said I would. Forgive me. That's not who said I would. Forgive me. That's not who said I would. Forgive me. That's not who I am. Let me know how that's impacted I am. Let me know how that's impacted I am. Let me know how that's impacted you so I can seek to make it right. you so I can seek to make it right. you so I can seek to make it right. Having said that, um moving forward, I'm Having said that, um moving forward, I'm Having said that, um moving forward, I'm going to be on time. going to be on time. going to be on time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Boom. Just like that's integrity. >> Boom. Just like that's integrity. >> Boom. Just like that's integrity. Integrity is not perfection. Integrity Integrity is not perfection. Integrity Integrity is not perfection. Integrity is consistency about exactly what you is consistency about exactly what you is consistency about exactly what you said and who you said you were when you said and who you said you were when you said and who you said you were when you said you won't do it. That's integrity. said you won't do it. That's integrity. said you won't do it. That's integrity. you know, you could have hidden for the you know, you could have hidden for the you know, you could have hidden for the rest of your life, just disappeared. Um, rest of your life, just disappeared. Um, rest of your life, just disappeared. Um, and I've I've I you know, it's not and I've I've I you know, it's not and I've I've I you know, it's not perfect and what happened is horrific perfect and what happened is horrific perfect and what happened is horrific and yet not beyond and yet not beyond and yet not beyond >> the grace of God. >> the grace of God. >> the grace of God. >> And somehow, I don't know how this all >> And somehow, I don't know how this all >> And somehow, I don't know how this all bundles together in the story we read bundles together in the story we read bundles together in the story we read about every morning in the scriptures. about every morning in the scriptures. about every morning in the scriptures. and and and >> your willingness cuz I wondered about >> your willingness cuz I wondered about >> your willingness cuz I wondered about this when I was setting up. It's like this when I was setting up. It's like this when I was setting up. It's like you've been talking about this publicly you've been talking about this publicly you've been talking about this publicly for a couple years for a couple years for a couple years >> and I waited a couple years before I had >> and I waited a couple years before I had >> and I waited a couple years before I had your podcast your podcast your podcast off. No, I'm at a place now where me and off. No, I'm at a place now where me and off. No, I'm at a place now where me and Laura made a decision to Laura made a decision to Laura made a decision to >> I'm not apologizing. I'm not living that >> I'm not apologizing. I'm not living that >> I'm not apologizing. I'm not living that that that life of um that that life of um that that life of um >> you know I I I there was an appropriate >> you know I I I there was an appropriate >> you know I I I there was an appropriate time to to be more passive.

time to to be more passive. time to to be more passive. >> I felt like it was appropriate. The >> I felt like it was appropriate. The >> I felt like it was appropriate. The time's over time's over time's over >> and we're going to be who we are and >> and we're going to be who we are and >> and we're going to be who we are and we're excited. We're hopeful that God's we're excited. We're hopeful that God's we're excited. We're hopeful that God's redeeming our lives. We're we're people redeeming our lives. We're we're people redeeming our lives. We're we're people who are on a constant journey. I'm not who are on a constant journey. I'm not who are on a constant journey. I'm not restored. restored. restored. >> I will be on a journey of restoration >> I will be on a journey of restoration >> I will be on a journey of restoration until the day I see you in heaven, Gary. until the day I see you in heaven, Gary. until the day I see you in heaven, Gary. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, is he restored? No, man. You're not >> So, is he restored? No, man. You're not >> So, is he restored? No, man. You're not either. It's called sanctification. either. It's called sanctification. either. It's called sanctification. >> Yes, it is. That is my journey. >> Yes, it is. That is my journey. >> Yes, it is. That is my journey. Sanctification. Sanctification. Sanctification. >> The process of being made that which we >> The process of being made that which we >> The process of being made that which we cannot be made on our own by the one who cannot be made on our own by the one who cannot be made on our own by the one who made us. made us. made us. >> I'm up for that. That's our story. So, >> I'm up for that. That's our story. So, >> I'm up for that. That's our story. So, I'm going to stand on that. I'm going to stand on that. I'm going to stand on that. >> You know, I think about this often. and >> You know, I think about this often. and >> You know, I think about this often. and it was equipped in seminary. It was at it was equipped in seminary. It was at it was equipped in seminary. It was at the back of a class. We were listening the back of a class. We were listening the back of a class. We were listening to some lecture and it was on the to some lecture and it was on the to some lecture and it was on the esquetology of wholeness or something esquetology of wholeness or something esquetology of wholeness or something like that and it was on wholeness and my like that and it was on wholeness and my like that and it was on wholeness and my systematics professor Ian Nickel leaned systematics professor Ian Nickel leaned systematics professor Ian Nickel leaned over and whispered in my ear, wholeness over and whispered in my ear, wholeness over and whispered in my ear, wholeness is an esquetological concept. In other is an esquetological concept. In other is an esquetological concept. In other words, it's going to happen in heaven. words, it's going to happen in heaven. words, it's going to happen in heaven. >> And he's right. >> And he's right. >> And he's right. >> Yes. And in the meantime, you know what >> Yes. And in the meantime, you know what >> Yes. And in the meantime, you know what I'm grateful for is your willingness to I'm grateful for is your willingness to I'm grateful for is your willingness to share the story, the good, the bad, and share the story, the good, the bad, and share the story, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

the ugly. the ugly. >> We're all a work in progress. And I just >> We're all a work in progress. And I just >> We're all a work in progress. And I just I just want to say thank you. Thank you I just want to say thank you. Thank you I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much. so much. so much. >> Thank you. And you you told me >> Thank you. And you you told me >> Thank you. And you you told me I want to I want to give you this answer I want to I want to give you this answer I want to I want to give you this answer and I and I know it said we we this is and I and I know it said we we this is and I and I know it said we we this is Joe Rogan asking length and which is a Joe Rogan asking length and which is a Joe Rogan asking length and which is a credit to you. You had said, "Do do you credit to you. You had said, "Do do you credit to you. You had said, "Do do you do I believe anything then that I no do I believe anything then that I no do I believe anything then that I no longer believe now?" longer believe now?" longer believe now?" >> Yeah. In a leadership context, I want to >> Yeah. In a leadership context, I want to >> Yeah. In a leadership context, I want to say this to the pastors that listen to say this to the pastors that listen to say this to the pastors that listen to you. I used to believe that being a you. I used to believe that being a you. I used to believe that being a strong leader was was was it I no longer strong leader was was was it I no longer strong leader was was was it I no longer believe that. I believe being a kind believe that. I believe being a kind believe that. I believe being a kind leader is the most explosive attribute leader is the most explosive attribute leader is the most explosive attribute any church could ever have in a leader any church could ever have in a leader any church could ever have in a leader >> really because a kind leader will be >> really because a kind leader will be >> really because a kind leader will be strong. [snorts] strong. [snorts] strong. [snorts] But it's not a guarantee that a strong But it's not a guarantee that a strong But it's not a guarantee that a strong leader will ever be kind. And it's leader will ever be kind. And it's leader will ever be kind. And it's kindness that is the conduit for this kindness that is the conduit for this kindness that is the conduit for this gospel. Whether people like it or not, gospel. Whether people like it or not, gospel. Whether people like it or not, these mean judgy people on like do your these mean judgy people on like do your these mean judgy people on like do your Tik Tok videos doesn't matter to me. Tik Tok videos doesn't matter to me. Tik Tok videos doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is the kindness of What matters to me is the kindness of What matters to me is the kindness of God that leads us to become better God that leads us to become better God that leads us to become better people. And now I look at leadership so people. And now I look at leadership so people. And now I look at leadership so differently. I'm like, I'm strong. Yeah.

differently. I'm like, I'm strong. Yeah. differently. I'm like, I'm strong. Yeah. Yeah. But am I kind? Kindness is Yeah. But am I kind? Kindness is Yeah. But am I kind? Kindness is longevity. longevity. longevity. >> Kindness will get you to 80 with a >> Kindness will get you to 80 with a >> Kindness will get you to 80 with a smile. Kindness will get you to look at smile. Kindness will get you to look at smile. Kindness will get you to look at a congregation that bites you as much as a congregation that bites you as much as a congregation that bites you as much as they bless you and still go, "This is they bless you and still go, "This is they bless you and still go, "This is what I signed up for." Strength, what I signed up for." Strength, what I signed up for." Strength, Strength will get you eight services. Strength will get you eight services. Strength will get you eight services. Strength will get you millions saved. Strength will get you millions saved. Strength will get you millions saved. Strength will get you uh some some Strength will get you uh some some Strength will get you uh some some battles won on a dark alley with some battles won on a dark alley with some battles won on a dark alley with some demons. Kindness will get you a life demons. Kindness will get you a life demons. Kindness will get you a life you're proud of. you're proud of. you're proud of. >> The fruit of the Holy Spirit. >> The fruit of the Holy Spirit. >> The fruit of the Holy Spirit. >> That's what I believe. >> That's what I believe. >> That's what I believe. >> It is. I want my life more and more to >> It is. I want my life more and more to >> It is. I want my life more and more to be reflective of the fruits of the Holy be reflective of the fruits of the Holy be reflective of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. It's the only tangible Spirit. Yeah. It's the only tangible Spirit. Yeah. It's the only tangible evidence I have. And the best arbiter of evidence I have. And the best arbiter of evidence I have. And the best arbiter of that is my wife. that is my wife. that is my wife. >> Same. >> Same. >> Same. >> If I'm not kind to Tony, if I'm not >> If I'm not kind to Tony, if I'm not >> If I'm not kind to Tony, if I'm not gentle, peaceful, and she's like, "Man, gentle, peaceful, and she's like, "Man, gentle, peaceful, and she's like, "Man, you're not kind today." I'm like, "Ain't you're not kind today." I'm like, "Ain't you're not kind today." I'm like, "Ain't >> that said the other day, she goes, "You >> that said the other day, she goes, "You >> that said the other day, she goes, "You wouldn't talk to somebody that I would wouldn't talk to somebody that I would wouldn't talk to somebody that I would don't incense. I'm sorry. You're right. don't incense. I'm sorry. You're right. don't incense. I'm sorry. You're right. I wouldn't." I wouldn't." I wouldn't." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I wouldn't Why would I talk to you >> I wouldn't Why would I talk to you >> I wouldn't Why would I talk to you >> less kind than p a person that I don't >> less kind than p a person that I don't >> less kind than p a person that I don't care about like that?

care about like that? care about like that? >> Exactly. My bad. >> Exactly. My bad. >> Exactly. My bad. >> Target store. You're nicer to the clerk >> Target store. You're nicer to the clerk >> Target store. You're nicer to the clerk at the Target store than you are to your at the Target store than you are to your at the Target store than you are to your wife. Like, come on. God, wife. Like, come on. God, wife. Like, come on. God, >> I can do better. And but that's the Holy >> I can do better. And but that's the Holy >> I can do better. And but that's the Holy Spirit at work because I'm Spirit at work because I'm Spirit at work because I'm >> I'm a degenerate being regenerated, >> I'm a degenerate being regenerated, >> I'm a degenerate being regenerated, Carl. That's Carl. That's Carl. That's >> and I think that's why I have empathy >> and I think that's why I have empathy >> and I think that's why I have empathy for what's happening in the church for what's happening in the church for what's happening in the church today. today. today. >> Uh not justification, just empathy for >> Uh not justification, just empathy for >> Uh not justification, just empathy for it. it. it. >> Yeah. You handle this, Carrie, the way >> Yeah. You handle this, Carrie, the way >> Yeah. You handle this, Carrie, the way everybody should with your brain. I hear everybody should with your brain. I hear everybody should with your brain. I hear you [clears throat] talk and it's so why you [clears throat] talk and it's so why you [clears throat] talk and it's so why why people are drawn to you is because why people are drawn to you is because why people are drawn to you is because you know everyone else is being swayed you know everyone else is being swayed you know everyone else is being swayed by feeling stuff and but you bring even by feeling stuff and but you bring even by feeling stuff and but you bring even the way you have handled our the way you have handled our the way you have handled our relationship and even this conversation. relationship and even this conversation. relationship and even this conversation. It's not easy. It's not hard. It's just It's not easy. It's not hard. It's just It's not easy. It's not hard. It's just facts. facts. facts. >> These are what the metrics say. >> These are what the metrics say. >> These are what the metrics say. >> This is where that's going to lead you. >> This is where that's going to lead you. >> This is where that's going to lead you. And people are leaning into that because And people are leaning into that because And people are leaning into that because we live in a world right now where a we live in a world right now where a we live in a world right now where a pastor is going to get on his podcast pastor is going to get on his podcast pastor is going to get on his podcast and go here's here's five things that and go here's here's five things that and go here's here's five things that are sin. are sin. are sin. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] Really, bro? Like that your idea? Really, bro? Like that your idea? Really, bro? Like that your idea? >> I'm just going to tell you what the word >> I'm just going to tell you what the word >> I'm just going to tell you what the word says, Carl. The way you read the word.

says, Carl. The way you read the word. says, Carl. The way you read the word. Well, the Bible says according to your Well, the Bible says according to your Well, the Bible says according to your interpretation. Pastors are too insecure interpretation. Pastors are too insecure interpretation. Pastors are too insecure to say these things. They say this is to say these things. They say this is to say these things. They say this is the way it is. I've always tried to be the way it is. I've always tried to be the way it is. I've always tried to be very careful when I speak for God. Even very careful when I speak for God. Even very careful when I speak for God. Even when we're doing especially when we when we're doing especially when we when we're doing especially when we doing capital campaigns, doing capital campaigns, doing capital campaigns, >> Lord Jesus, >> Lord Jesus, >> Lord Jesus, >> God didn't tell me this. I think it's a >> God didn't tell me this. I think it's a >> God didn't tell me this. I think it's a good idea. Now, if I'm preaching Genesis good idea. Now, if I'm preaching Genesis good idea. Now, if I'm preaching Genesis 1 or you know the biatitudes, 1 or you know the biatitudes, 1 or you know the biatitudes, God said that's clear. In [snorts] the God said that's clear. In [snorts] the God said that's clear. In [snorts] the meantime, this is what I think. meantime, this is what I think. meantime, this is what I think. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I could be wrong, right? I could be >> I could be wrong, right? I could be >> I could be wrong, right? I could be wrong. wrong. wrong. >> I was going to call my podcast. Hi, this >> I was going to call my podcast. Hi, this >> I was going to call my podcast. Hi, this is Carl and Laura Lance. Our podcast is Carl and Laura Lance. Our podcast is Carl and Laura Lance. Our podcast called We could be wrong, but we're called We could be wrong, but we're called We could be wrong, but we're probably not. probably not. probably not. >> We could be wrong. We could be wrong. >> We could be wrong. We could be wrong. >> We could be wrong. We could be wrong. And there is that that leader. It's And there is that that leader. It's And there is that that leader. It's like, yeah, we could be wrong, but like, yeah, we could be wrong, but like, yeah, we could be wrong, but >> there's a couple there's a couple >> there's a couple there's a couple >> there's a couple there's a couple outlers. And I think to me is a outlers. And I think to me is a outlers. And I think to me is a preference. I'm with you, though. my preference. I'm with you, though. my preference. I'm with you, though. my most comfortable place to live is here's most comfortable place to live is here's most comfortable place to live is here's what I think. what I think. what I think. >> If it ends up that I did hear from God, >> If it ends up that I did hear from God, >> If it ends up that I did hear from God, that'll be evident. But I but as other that'll be evident. But I but as other that'll be evident. But I but as other guys I know, they they they use the God guys I know, they they they use the God guys I know, they they they use the God said stuff and I respect this. Cool. My said stuff and I respect this. Cool. My said stuff and I respect this. Cool. My personal preference is I just know me.

personal preference is I just know me. personal preference is I just know me. >> I know me too. >> I know me too. >> I know me too. >> And so if I heard from God, let me let >> And so if I heard from God, let me let >> And so if I heard from God, let me let me do the heavy lifting so I can give me do the heavy lifting so I can give me do the heavy lifting so I can give him the glory if it was him. But let me him the glory if it was him. But let me him the glory if it was him. But let me own it as it was me. If it doesn't go own it as it was me. If it doesn't go own it as it was me. If it doesn't go well, now people are going to question well, now people are going to question well, now people are going to question God. God. God. So, I personally stay away, but I'm okay So, I personally stay away, but I'm okay So, I personally stay away, but I'm okay if other people, hey, more power to you. if other people, hey, more power to you. if other people, hey, more power to you. My safest posture is to say, Carrie, My safest posture is to say, Carrie, My safest posture is to say, Carrie, this is what I think. And then two years this is what I think. And then two years this is what I think. And then two years later, hey, by the way, I think I got no later, hey, by the way, I think I got no later, hey, by the way, I think I got no or I think the Holy Spirit kind of or I think the Holy Spirit kind of or I think the Holy Spirit kind of dropped that in my ear two years after dropped that in my ear two years after dropped that in my ear two years after we've seen the fruit of it. By the way, we've seen the fruit of it. By the way, we've seen the fruit of it. By the way, that wasn't just my idea. That is that wasn't just my idea. That is that wasn't just my idea. That is beautiful. But I'd rather let you ask beautiful. But I'd rather let you ask beautiful. But I'd rather let you ask me. Was that a supernatural idea? Might me. Was that a supernatural idea? Might me. Was that a supernatural idea? Might have been. have been. have been. >> Well, and discernment goes beyond just >> Well, and discernment goes beyond just >> Well, and discernment goes beyond just the leader. the leader. the leader. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it really does. Carl, >> it really does. Carl, >> it really does. Carl, >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> I wish I didn't have to catch a flight. >> I wish I didn't have to catch a flight. >> I wish I didn't have to catch a flight. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having me. >> This was awesome, man. Thank you so >> This was awesome, man. Thank you so >> This was awesome, man. Thank you so much. Uh, Lights On podcast, highly much. Uh, Lights On podcast, highly much. Uh, Lights On podcast, highly recommend. recommend. recommend. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Um, website or anything else you want to >> Um, website or anything else you want to >> Um, website or anything else you want to direct people to? direct people to? direct people to? >> No, I can. Uh, hello at Carl and Laura >> No, I can. Uh, hello at Carl and Laura >> No, I can. Uh, hello at Carl and Laura Lint.com, Lint.com, Lint.com, I believe. and I'd love to hear from I believe. and I'd love to hear from I believe. and I'd love to hear from anybody. Thank you for having me. Thank anybody. Thank you for having me. Thank anybody. Thank you for having me. Thank you for what you do.

you for what you do. you for what you do. >> Thank you, >> Thank you, >> Thank you, >> sir. Well, that was the false ending to >> sir. Well, that was the false ending to >> sir. Well, that was the false ending to the podcast, but Carl and I kind of the podcast, but Carl and I kind of the podcast, but Carl and I kind of leaned back and we're going to keep it leaned back and we're going to keep it leaned back and we're going to keep it rolling because I want every pastor to rolling because I want every pastor to rolling because I want every pastor to hear what Carl said. Um because it meant hear what Carl said. Um because it meant hear what Carl said. Um because it meant a lot to me. Meant a lot to me. [snorts] a lot to me. Meant a lot to me. [snorts] a lot to me. Meant a lot to me. [snorts] Carl, thank you. Carl, thank you. Carl, thank you. Was that okay? my favorite conversation Was that okay? my favorite conversation Was that okay? my favorite conversation I've had in five years, Carrie and I've had in five years, Carrie and I've had in five years, Carrie and Beyonce. Beyonce. Beyonce. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, that's why I was so excited because I I that's why I was so excited because I I that's why I was so excited because I I love how I feel today. And it's like love how I feel today. And it's like love how I feel today. And it's like >> I you're it's not lost on me >> I you're it's not lost on me >> I you're it's not lost on me >> that [clears throat and snorts] >> that [clears throat and snorts] >> that [clears throat and snorts] my my deepest need and heart is to love my my deepest need and heart is to love my my deepest need and heart is to love the pastors that I made their life the pastors that I made their life the pastors that I made their life harder. harder. harder. >> And that's what I did. For every good >> And that's what I did. For every good >> And that's what I did. For every good pastor out there, the moment I fell, pastor out there, the moment I fell, pastor out there, the moment I fell, they had to deal with 97 more they had to deal with 97 more they had to deal with 97 more suspicions. So, my silent prayer has suspicions. So, my silent prayer has suspicions. So, my silent prayer has been >> Are we still recording?

>> Are we still recording? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Good. No, keep going. >> Good. No, keep going. >> Good. No, keep going. >> No, my my my my silent prayer is let let >> No, my my my my silent prayer is let let >> No, my my my my silent prayer is let let me um me um me um let me get some of that off the board let me get some of that off the board let me get some of that off the board for these guys. Good. you know, let me for these guys. Good. you know, let me for these guys. Good. you know, let me uh let me live this life where they when uh let me live this life where they when uh let me live this life where they when they had to defend or justify their own they had to defend or justify their own they had to defend or justify their own life because of what I did, they can now life because of what I did, they can now life because of what I did, they can now say, "Oh, also that guy though, look at say, "Oh, also that guy though, look at say, "Oh, also that guy though, look at what God's grace like that's that's my what God's grace like that's that's my what God's grace like that's that's my goal because I can't I can't I carry goal because I can't I can't I carry goal because I can't I can't I carry that, you know, and I know I did that that, you know, and I know I did that that, you know, and I know I did that for so many people I love. I just I hate for so many people I love. I just I hate for so many people I love. I just I hate that." And that's something I've had to that." And that's something I've had to that." And that's something I've had to give to God and he's given it back to me give to God and he's given it back to me give to God and he's given it back to me in this way which is here's how you're in this way which is here's how you're in this way which is here's how you're you know here's how I you know here's how I you know here's how I can do the best I can. So for all the I can do the best I can. So for all the I can do the best I can. So for all the I just I just that was hard for me making just I just that was hard for me making just I just that was hard for me making it harder for amazing pastors and uh I'm it harder for amazing pastors and uh I'm it harder for amazing pastors and uh I'm grateful to be able to talk to the grateful to be able to talk to the grateful to be able to talk to the people that listen to your body, you people that listen to your body, you people that listen to your body, you know, because know, because know, because >> wow >> wow >> wow >> they're all they're all in the trenches >> they're all they're all in the trenches >> they're all they're all in the trenches and I and uh for as much good as I did, and I and uh for as much good as I did, and I and uh for as much good as I did, you know, when we did a lot of good, you know, when we did a lot of good, you know, when we did a lot of good, there were some shots that I I brought there were some shots that I I brought there were some shots that I I brought the body. the body. the body. >> Mhm. and I own that and I'm I'm sorry >> Mhm. and I own that and I'm I'm sorry >> Mhm. and I own that and I'm I'm sorry about that and um I can't change it but about that and um I can't change it but about that and um I can't change it but I can live a different life, you know, I can live a different life, you know, I can live a different life, you know, and uh that's my hope.

and uh that's my hope. and uh that's my hope. Yeah, >> thank you. >> thank you. It's my hope, too. I uh I still want to believe I still want to believe that the church is the instrument of that the church is the instrument of that the church is the instrument of Jesus and God. Jesus and God. Jesus and God. >> Yeah. And when these [snorts] things >> Yeah. And when these [snorts] things >> Yeah. And when these [snorts] things happen, it just gets harder and harder happen, it just gets harder and harder happen, it just gets harder and harder for more and more people to believe for more and more people to believe for more and more people to believe that. that. that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think today >> And I think today >> And I think today you gave us an insight into the interior you gave us an insight into the interior you gave us an insight into the interior journey of how that happens. And I think journey of how that happens. And I think journey of how that happens. And I think it's wrong. It's deadly. It's it's wrong. It's deadly. It's it's wrong. It's deadly. It's destructive, destructive, destructive, but it's not intentional. And I think but it's not intentional. And I think but it's not intentional. And I think that's what people don't realize. that's what people don't realize. that's what people don't realize. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> I think that's what people don't >> I think that's what people don't >> I think that's what people don't realize, Carl. I think that's what I've realize, Carl. I think that's what I've realize, Carl. I think that's what I've been trying to say for a long time. been trying to say for a long time. been trying to say for a long time. >> Well, you really helped me see that and >> Well, you really helped me see that and >> Well, you really helped me see that and I was hoping when you when you said, you I was hoping when you when you said, you I was hoping when you when you said, you know, when we talked about how how could know, when we talked about how how could know, when we talked about how how could you preach while that was going on, I you preach while that was going on, I you preach while that was going on, I did not expect that answer.

did not expect that answer. did not expect that answer. >> And it made me think, oh yeah, that must >> And it made me think, oh yeah, that must >> And it made me think, oh yeah, that must be how it is. That must be how it is. be how it is. That must be how it is. be how it is. That must be how it is. And I'm just glad you're getting healed. And I'm just glad you're getting healed. And I'm just glad you're getting healed. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I am. And I'm happy for you and Laura >> I am. And I'm happy for you and Laura >> I am. And I'm happy for you and Laura and your kids. and your kids. and your kids. [sighs] Oh man. So that's um that's the [sighs] Oh man. So that's um that's the [sighs] Oh man. So that's um that's the conversation with Carl Lent. I hope it conversation with Carl Lent. I hope it conversation with Carl Lent. I hope it was helpful. Um you know, this is a was helpful. Um you know, this is a was helpful. Um you know, this is a tough season in the church and a tough tough season in the church and a tough tough season in the church and a tough season because I really do believe that season because I really do believe that season because I really do believe that the church is Jesus' chosen instrument. the church is Jesus' chosen instrument. the church is Jesus' chosen instrument. And I really believe that very sinful And I really believe that very sinful And I really believe that very sinful people like you and I are the leaders people like you and I are the leaders people like you and I are the leaders that God um that God um that God um appoints appoints appoints to do the work and and that that 99.999% to do the work and and that that 99.999% to do the work and and that that 99.999% of us get into it for the right reasons of us get into it for the right reasons of us get into it for the right reasons and trying to figure out how to do this and trying to figure out how to do this and trying to figure out how to do this well and to be a good husband and a good well and to be a good husband and a good well and to be a good husband and a good father and a good leader and a good boss father and a good leader and a good boss father and a good leader and a good boss and a good pastor is just really really and a good pastor is just really really and a good pastor is just really really hard. So thank you for hanging in there hard. So thank you for hanging in there hard. So thank you for hanging in there for the whole conversation whether for the whole conversation whether for the whole conversation whether you're watching or listening today. If you're watching or listening today. If you're watching or listening today. If you want show notes, uh, you can get you want show notes, uh, you can get you want show notes, uh, you can get them at the art of them at the art of them at the art of leadershipacademy.com.

leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. You set up a free account. They're all You set up a free account. They're all You set up a free account. They're all there. We have some good conversations there. We have some good conversations there. We have some good conversations that are a little more nuanced and maybe that are a little more nuanced and maybe that are a little more nuanced and maybe engage the brain a little bit more than engage the brain a little bit more than engage the brain a little bit more than you would find um, sometimes online. If you would find um, sometimes online. If you would find um, sometimes online. If you're watching on YouTube, Spotify, if you're watching on YouTube, Spotify, if you're watching on YouTube, Spotify, if you're listening, uh, give us a follow, you're listening, uh, give us a follow, you're listening, uh, give us a follow, subscription, let us know what you subscription, let us know what you subscription, let us know what you think. I hope this was ultimately a think. I hope this was ultimately a think. I hope this was ultimately a healing conversation. Coming up on the healing conversation. Coming up on the healing conversation. Coming up on the podcast, we got a number of great podcast, we got a number of great podcast, we got a number of great conversations. We got Arthur Brooks. conversations. We got Arthur Brooks. conversations. We got Arthur Brooks. Man, I enjoyed that. And Chelsea Smith Man, I enjoyed that. And Chelsea Smith Man, I enjoyed that. And Chelsea Smith is also coming up to talk about marriage is also coming up to talk about marriage is also coming up to talk about marriage and relationships. I just love having and relationships. I just love having and relationships. I just love having these authentic conversations. I hope these authentic conversations. I hope these authentic conversations. I hope they help you. And uh maybe share this they help you. And uh maybe share this they help you. And uh maybe share this with your team. Text it to a friend. Uh with your team. Text it to a friend. Uh with your team. Text it to a friend. Uh and we'll see you next time on the and we'll see you next time on the and we'll see you next time on the podcast. Thank you so much for podcast. Thank you so much for podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for your listening. Thank you so much for your listening. Thank you so much for your comments and for getting the word out comments and for getting the word out comments and for getting the word out about this podcast. We really um about this podcast. We really um about this podcast. We really um appreciate hopefully long nuanced appreciate hopefully long nuanced appreciate hopefully long nuanced conversations like this that in the end conversations like this that in the end conversations like this that in the end make the church better and make you make the church better and make you make the church better and make you better.