Network without Being Awkward and Advice for Better 1:1s

It's one of those powerful coaching It's one of those powerful coaching questions which is how have you colluded questions which is how have you colluded questions which is how have you colluded to create the very system that you are to create the very system that you are to create the very system that you are currently complaining about. currently complaining about. currently complaining about. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff leadership >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff leadership >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff leadership podcast. I'm so glad you joined us podcast. I'm so glad you joined us podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. I hope our time together helps today. I hope our time together helps today. I hope our time together helps you thrive in life and leadership. I you thrive in life and leadership. I you thrive in life and leadership. I hope you're enjoying the glory [music] hope you're enjoying the glory [music] hope you're enjoying the glory [music] of summer wherever you are. Unless of of summer wherever you are. Unless of of summer wherever you are. Unless of course you're in the Southern course you're in the Southern course you're in the Southern Hemisphere. Shout out Australia, New Hemisphere. Shout out Australia, New Hemisphere. Shout out Australia, New Zealand. We're really glad that you're Zealand. We're really glad that you're Zealand. We're really glad that you're tuning in. And today I've got Michael tuning in. And today I've got Michael tuning in. And today I've got Michael Bungay stand your back. If you've ever Bungay stand your back. If you've ever Bungay stand your back. If you've ever wondered how to build a great network wondered how to build a great network wondered how to build a great network without the awkward, we go into a really without the awkward, we go into a really without the awkward, we go into a really [music] interesting model about how to [music] interesting model about how to [music] interesting model about how to expand your network, get around the expand your network, get around the expand your network, get around the people who can help you grow as a people who can help you grow as a people who can help you grow as a leader, maybe even some influencers you leader, maybe even some influencers you leader, maybe even some influencers you admire, how to invite them into the admire, how to invite them into the admire, how to invite them into the room, how to have better one-on-one room, how to have better one-on-one room, how to have better one-on-one meetings, the seven questions you need meetings, the seven questions you need meetings, the seven questions you need to be asking. Really, this goes to why to be asking. Really, this goes to why to be asking. Really, this goes to why you don't develop a team, why you don't you don't develop a team, why you don't you don't develop a team, why you don't develop better leaders, and then develop better leaders, and then develop better leaders, and then building a path nobody else is walking building a path nobody else is walking building a path nobody else is walking in terms of career. So, Michael and I go in terms of career. So, Michael and I go in terms of career. So, Michael and I go all over the place. In fact, this all over the place. In fact, this all over the place. In fact, this podcast has a very um unusual podcast has a very um unusual podcast has a very um unusual beginning. I I said we were going to beginning. I I said we were going to beginning. I I said we were going to start the interview and a lot of the start the interview and a lot of the start the interview and a lot of the time here on the podcast, I'll say, "Oh, time here on the podcast, I'll say, "Oh, time here on the podcast, I'll say, "Oh, before we hit record, we talked about," before we hit record, we talked about," before we hit record, we talked about," Well, you're going to hear some of the Well, you're going to hear some of the Well, you're going to hear some of the before we hit record. I just thought it before we hit record. I just thought it before we hit record. I just thought it was quirky and interesting and so yeah, was quirky and interesting and so yeah, was quirky and interesting and so yeah, it starts with me singing. Anyway, uh so it starts with me singing. Anyway, uh so it starts with me singing. Anyway, uh so we're just going to bring you behind the we're just going to bring you behind the we're just going to bring you behind the scenes. Michael and I have met in person scenes. Michael and I have met in person scenes. Michael and I have met in person a few times. We have a really good time a few times. We have a really good time a few times. We have a really good time and uh I wanted to bring you a little and uh I wanted to bring you a little and uh I wanted to bring you a little bit behind the scenes as well. You're bit behind the scenes as well. You're bit behind the scenes as well. You're going to enjoy this conversation.

going to enjoy this conversation. going to enjoy this conversation. Michael Bang Stan is best known for the Michael Bang Stan is best known for the Michael Bang Stan is best known for the coaching habit, his best-selling coaching habit, his best-selling coaching habit, his best-selling coaching book. It is the bestselling coaching book. It is the bestselling coaching book. It is the bestselling coaching book of this century, coaching book of this century, coaching book of this century, recognized as a classic, sold 1.5 recognized as a classic, sold 1.5 recognized as a classic, sold 1.5 million copies, and he self-published million copies, and he self-published million copies, and he self-published it. We're going to get into that story. it. We're going to get into that story. it. We're going to get into that story. and um he is the founder of the box of and um he is the founder of the box of and um he is the founder of the box of crayons company and I'll tell you it's crayons company and I'll tell you it's crayons company and I'll tell you it's uh he's a really interesting eclectic uh he's a really interesting eclectic uh he's a really interesting eclectic guy. It's his third time on the podcast. guy. It's his third time on the podcast. guy. It's his third time on the podcast. I think you're really going to enjoy it. I think you're really going to enjoy it. I think you're really going to enjoy it. And now my conversation with Michael And now my conversation with Michael And now my conversation with Michael Bung Stan. Okay, here we go. There we are. There we are. >> Wait, we're we're starting with singing. >> Wait, we're we're starting with singing. >> Wait, we're we're starting with singing. I mean, I mean, I mean, >> yeah. Yeah, we're going to start >> yeah. Yeah, we're going to start >> yeah. Yeah, we're going to start singing. singing. singing. >> It go it goes ugly fast because like I >> It go it goes ugly fast because like I >> It go it goes ugly fast because like I >> Maybe we should leave that in. I realize >> Maybe we should leave that in. I realize >> Maybe we should leave that in. I realize I did my notes in front. I did my notes in front. I did my notes in front. >> I'm enthusiastically terrible singer. So >> I'm enthusiastically terrible singer. So >> I'm enthusiastically terrible singer. So I'm like [laughter] I'm like [laughter] I'm like [laughter] >> I I sing horribly and I sing a lot >> I I sing horribly and I sing a lot >> I I sing horribly and I sing a lot around the house which is just you know around the house which is just you know around the house which is just you know pray for my wife. It's not pray for my wife. It's not pray for my wife. It's not >> my Our wives can probably comm >> my Our wives can probably comm >> my Our wives can probably comm commiserate about that together.

commiserate about that together. commiserate about that together. >> But I would never do karaoke. Would you >> But I would never do karaoke. Would you >> But I would never do karaoke. Would you do karaoke? do karaoke? do karaoke? >> Oh I've done karaoke. Yeah. >> Oh I've done karaoke. Yeah. >> Oh I've done karaoke. Yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> I've done karaoke. I would No. I've I I >> I've done karaoke. I would No. I've I I >> I've done karaoke. I would No. I've I I was so bad. I was singing Ring of Fire, was so bad. I was singing Ring of Fire, was so bad. I was singing Ring of Fire, Johnny Cash, that the karaoke guy looked Johnny Cash, that the karaoke guy looked Johnny Cash, that the karaoke guy looked at me with kind of horror in his eyes at me with kind of horror in his eyes at me with kind of horror in his eyes and stepped up and started singing it and stepped up and started singing it and stepped up and started singing it with me in attempt to get me with me in attempt to get me with me in attempt to get me approximately near the note that I was approximately near the note that I was approximately near the note that I was supposed to be hitting cuz I I you know, supposed to be hitting cuz I I you know, supposed to be hitting cuz I I you know, it was like end of an evening. I'd been it was like end of an evening. I'd been it was like end of an evening. I'd been singing lustily and enthusiastically singing lustily and enthusiastically singing lustily and enthusiastically with other things. So, you kind of like with other things. So, you kind of like with other things. So, you kind of like lost my voice and couldn't quite hear lost my voice and couldn't quite hear lost my voice and couldn't quite hear myself. So, I was just I was all over myself. So, I was just I was all over myself. So, I was just I was all over the place. Yeah. I have scarred the place. Yeah. I have scarred the place. Yeah. I have scarred experienced karaoke goers. experienced karaoke goers. experienced karaoke goers. >> That's a That's an impressive start. I >> That's a That's an impressive start. I >> That's a That's an impressive start. I think we've started the podcast. I think think we've started the podcast. I think think we've started the podcast. I think we're just going to start with you we're just going to start with you we're just going to start with you singing poorly singing poorly singing poorly >> because I always say, you know, hey, >> because I always say, you know, hey, >> because I always say, you know, hey, before we started recording, well, now before we started recording, well, now before we started recording, well, now we're we're just going to share we're we're just going to share we're we're just going to share >> the whole B-roll. >> the whole B-roll. >> the whole B-roll. >> All B-roll all the time with Carrie and >> All B-roll all the time with Carrie and >> All B-roll all the time with Carrie and Michael. Michael. Michael. Well, I am glad you're back and you Well, I am glad you're back and you Well, I am glad you're back and you you've hit a milestone 10 10 years since you've hit a milestone 10 10 years since you've hit a milestone 10 10 years since you released the coaching habit and it's you released the coaching habit and it's you released the coaching habit and it's been quite the viral sensation. I mean, been quite the viral sensation. I mean, been quite the viral sensation. I mean, you you you >> um you sold a lot of copies. How many >> um you sold a lot of copies. How many >> um you sold a lot of copies. How many copies to date? And it was copies to date? And it was copies to date? And it was self-published. That's incredible.

self-published. That's incredible. self-published. That's incredible. >> Yeah. It's like I'm I'm not entirely >> Yeah. It's like I'm I'm not entirely >> Yeah. It's like I'm I'm not entirely sure cuz I've I've slightly lost track sure cuz I've I've slightly lost track sure cuz I've I've slightly lost track and I'm not and at a certain point it's and I'm not and at a certain point it's and I'm not and at a certain point it's like I don't even need to keep counting, like I don't even need to keep counting, like I don't even need to keep counting, but it's probably around but it's probably around but it's probably around >> more than 10. Um, probably about a >> more than 10. Um, probably about a >> more than 10. Um, probably about a million and a half copies. Um, million and a half copies. Um, million and a half copies. Um, >> it's incredible. >> it's incredible. >> it's incredible. >> It is incredible. I mean, honestly, >> It is incredible. I mean, honestly, >> It is incredible. I mean, honestly, Carrie, I wish I knew how I did it Carrie, I wish I knew how I did it Carrie, I wish I knew how I did it because I've written books since then because I've written books since then because I've written books since then that have not sold, you know, not even that have not sold, you know, not even that have not sold, you know, not even close to 10% of that number. So, it close to 10% of that number. So, it close to 10% of that number. So, it really was a combination of a good book really was a combination of a good book really was a combination of a good book at the right time with a little at the right time with a little at the right time with a little sprinkling of fairy dust to to make it sprinkling of fairy dust to to make it sprinkling of fairy dust to to make it um turn into a bit of a phenomenon. um turn into a bit of a phenomenon. um turn into a bit of a phenomenon. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it opened up a lot of >> Yeah. Yeah. And it opened up a lot of >> Yeah. Yeah. And it opened up a lot of doors for you, too. You met a lot of doors for you, too. You met a lot of doors for you, too. You met a lot of people. people. people. >> Yeah. Like had you had you met Brnee >> Yeah. Like had you had you met Brnee >> Yeah. Like had you had you met Brnee before that or Seth Goden or Ramit or before that or Seth Goden or Ramit or before that or Seth Goden or Ramit or any of that? Have you met those folks any of that? Have you met those folks any of that? Have you met those folks before? before? before? >> I had. Yeah. You know those all all >> I had. Yeah. You know those all all >> I had. Yeah. You know those all all three of those people I had because um three of those people I had because um three of those people I had because um one of the one of the one of the um assets or kind of ways of showing up um assets or kind of ways of showing up um assets or kind of ways of showing up in the world I have is I'm quite good at in the world I have is I'm quite good at in the world I have is I'm quite good at knocking on doors and inviting people knocking on doors and inviting people knocking on doors and inviting people into something. There's a saying I've into something. There's a saying I've into something. There's a saying I've heard recently that kind of fits with a heard recently that kind of fits with a heard recently that kind of fits with a lot of things I've been doing, which is lot of things I've been doing, which is lot of things I've been doing, which is nobody likes to be the first person to nobody likes to be the first person to nobody likes to be the first person to say hello, but everybody loves to be say hello, but everybody loves to be say hello, but everybody loves to be greeted. Um, and um, before the books, I greeted. Um, and um, before the books, I greeted. Um, and um, before the books, I ran something that these days would be ran something that these days would be ran something that these days would be called a podcast, but it was happening called a podcast, but it was happening called a podcast, but it was happening before the term podcast had been before the term podcast had been before the term podcast had been invented. It was called The Great Work invented. It was called The Great Work invented. It was called The Great Work Interviews. And I was just talking to Interviews. And I was just talking to Interviews. And I was just talking to people about work that had impact and people about work that had impact and people about work that had impact and meaning. So, um, you know, Bnee, I kind

meaning. So, um, you know, Bnee, I kind meaning. So, um, you know, Bnee, I kind of knew Bnee before she was, uh, you of knew Bnee before she was, uh, you of knew Bnee before she was, uh, you know, canonized. know, canonized. know, canonized. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Canonized. That's what happened. She is >> Canonized. That's what happened. She is >> Canonized. That's what happened. She is canonized. canonized. canonized. >> I actually introduced Bnee to Seth. I >> I actually introduced Bnee to Seth. I >> I actually introduced Bnee to Seth. I mean, just to give you a sense of of how mean, just to give you a sense of of how mean, just to give you a sense of of how things have shifted, I actually blurbed things have shifted, I actually blurbed things have shifted, I actually blurbed one of Bnee's early books because, you one of Bnee's early books because, you one of Bnee's early books because, you know, she thought I was significant know, she thought I was significant know, she thought I was significant enough and she was not significant enough and she was not significant enough and she was not significant enough. these days you can kind of get, enough. these days you can kind of get, enough. these days you can kind of get, you know, popes and kings and prime you know, popes and kings and prime you know, popes and kings and prime ministers to to blur her books, but in ministers to to blur her books, but in ministers to to blur her books, but in the good old days she was scraping the the good old days she was scraping the the good old days she was scraping the barrel with me. barrel with me. barrel with me. >> So that's interesting. How do you how do >> So that's interesting. How do you how do >> So that's interesting. How do you how do you do that? How do you knock on doors? you do that? How do you knock on doors? you do that? How do you knock on doors? That is an FAQ from my audience who That is an FAQ from my audience who That is an FAQ from my audience who would love to meet some of the guests on would love to meet some of the guests on would love to meet some of the guests on this podcast this podcast this podcast >> and obviously, you know, you've done >> and obviously, you know, you've done >> and obviously, you know, you've done that really well. You're very easy to that really well. You're very easy to that really well. You're very easy to talk to. I think that's one of the talk to. I think that's one of the talk to. I think that's one of the reasons I wanted to leave that weird reasons I wanted to leave that weird reasons I wanted to leave that weird intro in was I'm like you and I have had intro in was I'm like you and I have had intro in was I'm like you and I have had uh we've met at least once twice in uh we've met at least once twice in uh we've met at least once twice in person I think and person I think and person I think and >> had a really good time doing it. Your >> had a really good time doing it. Your >> had a really good time doing it. Your third time on the podcast like you're third time on the podcast like you're third time on the podcast like you're just a very relatable easy to connect just a very relatable easy to connect just a very relatable easy to connect with person. [sighs] with person. [sighs] with person. [sighs] >> Well, there's a couple of questions >> Well, there's a couple of questions >> Well, there's a couple of questions there. Um, in terms of connecting with there. Um, in terms of connecting with there. Um, in terms of connecting with people, people, people, um, um, um, honestly, a key part of it is honestly, a key part of it is honestly, a key part of it is persistence and, um, a willingness to persistence and, um, a willingness to persistence and, um, a willingness to not assume that the first time you don't not assume that the first time you don't not assume that the first time you don't hear anything back from them that hear anything back from them that hear anything back from them that they're actually just saying no. Um, I they're actually just saying no. Um, I they're actually just saying no. Um, I tend to go, look, I'm going to ask, I'm tend to go, look, I'm going to ask, I'm tend to go, look, I'm going to ask, I'm going to ask three times, maybe four going to ask three times, maybe four going to ask three times, maybe four times, and a certain point I will bow times, and a certain point I will bow times, and a certain point I will bow out. Now, I've been doing it for 25 or

out. Now, I've been doing it for 25 or out. Now, I've been doing it for 25 or 30 years. It feels slightly different 30 years. It feels slightly different 30 years. It feels slightly different now when you know AI can generate spam now when you know AI can generate spam now when you know AI can generate spam outreach and we've all had those emails outreach and we've all had those emails outreach and we've all had those emails from somebody pitching something going from somebody pitching something going from somebody pitching something going hey would it be you I prepared a 5 hey would it be you I prepared a 5 hey would it be you I prepared a 5 minute video for you would it be worth minute video for you would it be worth minute video for you would it be worth 15 minutes kind of that sort of spiel 15 minutes kind of that sort of spiel 15 minutes kind of that sort of spiel and how how that drives you nuts so you and how how that drives you nuts so you and how how that drives you nuts so you know the rude end always shifts but a know the rude end always shifts but a know the rude end always shifts but a degree of just kind of a a willingness degree of just kind of a a willingness degree of just kind of a a willingness to not take it personally when nothing to not take it personally when nothing to not take it personally when nothing happens um is a key part of happens um is a key part of happens um is a key part of Um, and then in terms of being uh easy Um, and then in terms of being uh easy Um, and then in terms of being uh easy to talk to, thank you for for saying to talk to, thank you for for saying to talk to, thank you for for saying that. I I suspect a good deal of it is well, here's how I think about it. It's well, here's how I think about it. It's a here's the neuroscience of it. a here's the neuroscience of it. a here's the neuroscience of it. I know people are more engaged if I have I know people are more engaged if I have I know people are more engaged if I have a way of lifting them up. You know, a way of lifting them up. You know, a way of lifting them up. You know, Edgar Shine and his son Peter Shine Edgar Shine and his son Peter Shine Edgar Shine and his son Peter Shine would call him kind of oneupping them. would call him kind of oneupping them. would call him kind of oneupping them. And often the best way to make people And often the best way to make people And often the best way to make people feel more important, give them more feel more important, give them more feel more important, give them more status, give them more rank. For me, a status, give them more rank. For me, a status, give them more rank. For me, a good way of doing that is to lower my good way of doing that is to lower my good way of doing that is to lower my own rank because I come with a lot of own rank because I come with a lot of own rank because I come with a lot of status kind of built in. Like I'm a status kind of built in. Like I'm a status kind of built in. Like I'm a straight white guy. I'm now old. I'm a straight white guy. I'm now old. I'm a straight white guy. I'm now old. I'm a best-selling author. I'm a road scholar.

best-selling author. I'm a road scholar. best-selling author. I'm a road scholar. I'm a blah blah blah blah blah. I've got I'm a blah blah blah blah blah. I've got I'm a blah blah blah blah blah. I've got a lot of status and rank to give away. a lot of status and rank to give away. a lot of status and rank to give away. And I'm very happy to do that, which And I'm very happy to do that, which And I'm very happy to do that, which means that I'm happy for people to laugh means that I'm happy for people to laugh means that I'm happy for people to laugh at me early on. In fact, I like it when at me early on. In fact, I like it when at me early on. In fact, I like it when people introduce me on a keynote speech. people introduce me on a keynote speech. people introduce me on a keynote speech. Um, they will I I've got a little blurb Um, they will I I've got a little blurb Um, they will I I've got a little blurb that people read out and it will almost that people read out and it will almost that people read out and it will almost always include Michael left high school always include Michael left high school always include Michael left high school being sued by no he was banned from his being sued by no he was banned from his being sued by no he was banned from his high school graduation for the balloon high school graduation for the balloon high school graduation for the balloon incident. He left law school being sued incident. He left law school being sued incident. He left law school being sued by one of his professors for defamation. by one of his professors for defamation. by one of his professors for defamation. and his per and on stage in law school and his per and on stage in law school and his per and on stage in law school appeared in something called appeared in something called appeared in something called synchronized nude male modeling and like synchronized nude male modeling and like synchronized nude male modeling and like I want people to go I want people to go I want people to go [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] because because I want them to laugh and because because I want them to laugh and because because I want them to laugh and and see me as human not as a collection and see me as human not as a collection and see me as human not as a collection of accolades and you know I won the of accolades and you know I won the of accolades and you know I won the bronze medal in the under2 backstroke bronze medal in the under2 backstroke bronze medal in the under2 backstroke swimming competition which is sometimes swimming competition which is sometimes swimming competition which is sometimes what speaker introductions can feel what speaker introductions can feel what speaker introductions can feel like. So, it's a real I I am the paradox like. So, it's a real I I am the paradox like. So, it's a real I I am the paradox is I am humble and confident.

is I am humble and confident. is I am humble and confident. >> I'm humble and that I've really got my >> I'm humble and that I've really got my >> I'm humble and that I've really got my feet on the ground and I really know feet on the ground and I really know feet on the ground and I really know just what a [laughter] complicated just what a [laughter] complicated just what a [laughter] complicated messed up, you know, the good, the bad, messed up, you know, the good, the bad, messed up, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugliness I've got inside of me. and the ugliness I've got inside of me. and the ugliness I've got inside of me. All of that. And I've got a fundamental All of that. And I've got a fundamental All of that. And I've got a fundamental belief that, you know, the phrase I use belief that, you know, the phrase I use belief that, you know, the phrase I use is I'm awesome and I'm doing great. And is I'm awesome and I'm doing great. And is I'm awesome and I'm doing great. And both of those both of those both of those >> That's how you sign off every email. I >> That's how you sign off every email. I >> That's how you sign off every email. I love it. Yeah. And these these things love it. Yeah. And these these things love it. Yeah. And these these things coexist in a kind of delightful tension coexist in a kind of delightful tension coexist in a kind of delightful tension that allows me to be playful and show up that allows me to be playful and show up that allows me to be playful and show up and be delighted to be talking to you. and be delighted to be talking to you. and be delighted to be talking to you. >> I should clarify that your email >> I should clarify that your email >> I should clarify that your email signature is not I am awesome and I'm signature is not I am awesome and I'm signature is not I am awesome and I'm doing great. It's you are awesome and doing great. It's you are awesome and doing great. It's you are awesome and you're doing great. Yeah. [laughter] you're doing great. Yeah. [laughter] you're doing great. Yeah. [laughter] That's a very different vibe. That's a very different vibe. That's a very different vibe. >> Although it's like it's interesting. >> Although it's like it's interesting. >> Although it's like it's interesting. Maybe maybe I'll switch it around. I'm Maybe maybe I'll switch it around. I'm Maybe maybe I'll switch it around. I'm awesome. I'm doing great. I'm probably awesome. I'm doing great. I'm probably awesome. I'm doing great. I'm probably better than you are. [laughter] better than you are. [laughter] better than you are. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> All leaders want to be >> All leaders want to be >> All leaders want to be >> Yeah. I think that's right. I think >> Yeah. I think that's right. I think >> Yeah. I think that's right. I think that's right. They're like, "Let me that's right. They're like, "Let me that's right. They're like, "Let me prove that I'm I'm better and more prove that I'm I'm better and more prove that I'm I'm better and more important than you because you would important than you because you would important than you because you would like that." And I'm like, "No, like that." And I'm like, "No, like that." And I'm like, "No, >> people want to be seen and heard and >> people want to be seen and heard and >> people want to be seen and heard and encouraged. That's that's just a encouraged. That's that's just a encouraged. That's that's just a foundational truth." And one of the most foundational truth." And one of the most foundational truth." And one of the most powerful ways of doing that is by powerful ways of doing that is by powerful ways of doing that is by raising them up. And one of the ways you raising them up. And one of the ways you raising them up. And one of the ways you raise them up is you play with your own raise them up is you play with your own raise them up is you play with your own status. Because if your status is lower, status. Because if your status is lower, status. Because if your status is lower, their status is higher.

their status is higher. their status is higher. So, I'm sure that there are still people So, I'm sure that there are still people So, I'm sure that there are still people you want to meet today that you haven't you want to meet today that you haven't you want to meet today that you haven't met. Kings, prime ministers, [laughter] met. Kings, prime ministers, [laughter] met. Kings, prime ministers, [laughter] authors, that kind of thing. authors, that kind of thing. authors, that kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> When you're in the age of AI, which is a >> When you're in the age of AI, which is a >> When you're in the age of AI, which is a really good point because you can learn really good point because you can learn really good point because you can learn a lot. And that also means the PR firms a lot. And that also means the PR firms a lot. And that also means the PR firms and the and the and the >> assistants are being bombarded with 5x >> assistants are being bombarded with 5x >> assistants are being bombarded with 5x the stuff they used to be bombarded by. the stuff they used to be bombarded by. the stuff they used to be bombarded by. >> What's your current approach? How do you >> What's your current approach? How do you >> What's your current approach? How do you how do you try to open a door that might how do you try to open a door that might how do you try to open a door that might be closed to you? be closed to you? be closed to you? >> Well, it is often um via people. You >> Well, it is often um via people. You >> Well, it is often um via people. You know, it's uh one of one of the benefits know, it's uh one of one of the benefits know, it's uh one of one of the benefits of just being getting older and being of just being getting older and being of just being getting older and being around for a while is I I know people around for a while is I I know people around for a while is I I know people and I can actually ask them, hey, would and I can actually ask them, hey, would and I can actually ask them, hey, would you mind making an introduction to you mind making an introduction to you mind making an introduction to But, you know, that often doesn't work. But, you know, that often doesn't work. But, you know, that often doesn't work. I mean, there's a podcast I would love I mean, there's a podcast I would love I mean, there's a podcast I would love to know. to know. to know. >> No, you've done that for me and it >> No, you've done that for me and it >> No, you've done that for me and it didn't work out, but they were very didn't work out, but they were very didn't work out, but they were very gracious. gracious. gracious. >> Right. like I tried to introduce you to >> Right. like I tried to introduce you to >> Right. like I tried to introduce you to Bnee and uh see if we could make Bnee and uh see if we could make Bnee and uh see if we could make something happen there and um you know something happen there and um you know something happen there and um you know they got back to you so that's that's they got back to you so that's that's they got back to you so that's that's lovely. Um I've been trying to get on lovely. Um I've been trying to get on lovely. Um I've been trying to get on Rich Rolls podcast for like three years Rich Rolls podcast for like three years Rich Rolls podcast for like three years and I've had at least four people kind and I've had at least four people kind and I've had at least four people kind of go hey can I introduce you to and and of go hey can I introduce you to and and of go hey can I introduce you to and and nothing's happened of it and so some of nothing's happened of it and so some of nothing's happened of it and so some of it is just um you know you just kind of it is just um you know you just kind of it is just um you know you just kind of suck it up. [laughter] suck it up. [laughter] suck it up. [laughter] >> Yeah. No and you know I've had more >> Yeah. No and you know I've had more >> Yeah. No and you know I've had more people do that lately texts from friends people do that lately texts from friends people do that lately texts from friends hey have you seen so and so's book? Have hey have you seen so and so's book? Have hey have you seen so and so's book? Have you seen so and so's book? And you seen so and so's book? And you seen so and so's book? And >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> I mean, I have to say I'm I'm a bit >> I mean, I have to say I'm I'm a bit >> I mean, I have to say I'm I'm a bit guilty of not always opening Well, you guilty of not always opening Well, you guilty of not always opening Well, you can open the store. I mean, I don't know can open the store. I mean, I don't know can open the store. I mean, I don't know how many requests we get. My team

how many requests we get. My team how many requests we get. My team handles most of it, but handles most of it, but handles most of it, but >> um >> um >> um >> yeah, maybe one in a hundred make it >> yeah, maybe one in a hundred make it >> yeah, maybe one in a hundred make it through, through, through, >> maybe. >> maybe. >> maybe. >> And I'm I'm I'm similar like, you know, >> And I'm I'm I'm similar like, you know, >> And I'm I'm I'm similar like, you know, there's this there's this way that there's this there's this way that there's this there's this way that there's a bunch of people who look at me there's a bunch of people who look at me there's a bunch of people who look at me and go, I'd love to have Michael blur my and go, I'd love to have Michael blur my and go, I'd love to have Michael blur my book. So, I get a pretty consistent flow book. So, I get a pretty consistent flow book. So, I get a pretty consistent flow of inquiries around that. And to a lot of inquiries around that. And to a lot of inquiries around that. And to a lot of them, I'm like, "I'm sorry, I just of them, I'm like, "I'm sorry, I just of them, I'm like, "I'm sorry, I just can't because I'm I'm full." Some of can't because I'm I'm full." Some of can't because I'm I'm full." Some of them, I'm like, "Send it to me." And if them, I'm like, "Send it to me." And if them, I'm like, "Send it to me." And if it's a hell yes, I will write a blur. it's a hell yes, I will write a blur. it's a hell yes, I will write a blur. But I often it's often not a hell yes. But I often it's often not a hell yes. But I often it's often not a hell yes. So, I I'll look at it, but I may not So, I I'll look at it, but I may not So, I I'll look at it, but I may not write it. Um, and of course, I'm now write it. Um, and of course, I'm now write it. Um, and of course, I'm now looking at other people who are like, looking at other people who are like, looking at other people who are like, you know, kings and queens and prime you know, kings and queens and prime you know, kings and queens and prime ministers and whatever else going maybe ministers and whatever else going maybe ministers and whatever else going maybe they could blur my book. Um, so we're they could blur my book. Um, so we're they could blur my book. Um, so we're all we're we're all after that. There's all we're we're all after that. There's all we're we're all after that. There's a there's a higher level. there's an a there's a higher level. there's an a there's a higher level. there's an inner inner inner circle that I'm not inner inner inner circle that I'm not inner inner inner circle that I'm not yet part of. Um, and uh, you know, I yet part of. Um, and uh, you know, I yet part of. Um, and uh, you know, I feel the tug of that a little bit, but feel the tug of that a little bit, but feel the tug of that a little bit, but I'm I'm trying to realize that I'm I'm trying to realize that I'm I'm trying to realize that uh, well, this is a different topic uh, well, this is a different topic uh, well, this is a different topic really, but actually this the thing I'm really, but actually this the thing I'm really, but actually this the thing I'm trying to do now is really give time and trying to do now is really give time and trying to do now is really give time and love and attention to the people who are love and attention to the people who are love and attention to the people who are the people who I really love. um rather the people who I really love. um rather the people who I really love. um rather than seeking to add another another name than seeking to add another another name than seeking to add another another name to my collection of people I've talked to my collection of people I've talked to my collection of people I've talked to.

to. to. >> Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I would >> Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I would >> Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I would say it's funny. I was just lining up say it's funny. I was just lining up say it's funny. I was just lining up endorsers for my new book um today and I endorsers for my new book um today and I endorsers for my new book um today and I thought, wow, I I remember a couple of thought, wow, I I remember a couple of thought, wow, I I remember a couple of books ago it was like reaching for the books ago it was like reaching for the books ago it was like reaching for the stars. stars. stars. >> Yeah. And now there's a couple of asks >> Yeah. And now there's a couple of asks >> Yeah. And now there's a couple of asks that might take uh an introduction or um that might take uh an introduction or um that might take uh an introduction or um hey do you have the email of most of hey do you have the email of most of hey do you have the email of most of them are just good friends at this point them are just good friends at this point them are just good friends at this point where you've spent enough time with them where you've spent enough time with them where you've spent enough time with them you got enough reps with them that it you got enough reps with them that it you got enough reps with them that it doesn't feel like a a heavy lift or an doesn't feel like a a heavy lift or an doesn't feel like a a heavy lift or an ask. ask. ask. >> I tell you something that I admire from >> I tell you something that I admire from >> I tell you something that I admire from my friend Mike Mallowitz. Do you know my friend Mike Mallowitz. Do you know my friend Mike Mallowitz. Do you know Mike at all? Have you come across? Mike at all? Have you come across? Mike at all? Have you come across? >> I know um what's his book? I know the >> I know um what's his book? I know the >> I know um what's his book? I know the name. It's on Prophet First. name. It's on Prophet First. name. It's on Prophet First. >> Yeah. Profit First, uh, the character >> Yeah. Profit First, uh, the character >> Yeah. Profit First, uh, the character principle. He's just got a new one out principle. He's just got a new one out principle. He's just got a new one out called, I think, the money habit. called, I think, the money habit. called, I think, the money habit. >> He is a he is a lovely man. >> He is a he is a lovely man. >> He is a he is a lovely man. >> I should have him on at some point. >> I should have him on at some point. >> I should have him on at some point. That'd be cool. That'd be cool. That'd be cool. >> Well, he he he specializes in people >> Well, he he he specializes in people >> Well, he he he specializes in people running small teams. Uh, you know, and running small teams. Uh, you know, and running small teams. Uh, you know, and on the private side, it's kind of like on the private side, it's kind of like on the private side, it's kind of like up to about a million dollars and really up to about a million dollars and really up to about a million dollars and really trying to systematize that so that you trying to systematize that so that you trying to systematize that so that you pay yourself first and that your pay yourself first and that your pay yourself first and that your business thrives. He for many years has business thrives. He for many years has business thrives. He for many years has hosted. He's like, I want to get in the hosted. He's like, I want to get in the hosted. He's like, I want to get in the room with bigname authors. That's what I room with bigname authors. That's what I room with bigname authors. That's what I want. And so he worked his network and want. And so he worked his network and want. And so he worked his network and for the last probably five years, um, he for the last probably five years, um, he for the last probably five years, um, he has hosted an annual gathering of people has hosted an annual gathering of people has hosted an annual gathering of people who have sold more than a million books.

who have sold more than a million books. who have sold more than a million books. Um, and I've been to the last two or Um, and I've been to the last two or Um, and I've been to the last two or three of them and it is fantastic. you three of them and it is fantastic. you three of them and it is fantastic. you know, you show up and there's there's know, you show up and there's there's know, you show up and there's there's Don Miller and there's James Clear and Don Miller and there's James Clear and Don Miller and there's James Clear and then there's, you know, all all these then there's, you know, all all these then there's, you know, all all these people who I'm like, "Oh, these are all people who I'm like, "Oh, these are all people who I'm like, "Oh, these are all impressive people who've all sold impressive people who've all sold impressive people who've all sold books." Turns out most of them don't books." Turns out most of them don't books." Turns out most of them don't know how they sold their books either. know how they sold their books either. know how they sold their books either. We're all like delighted and surprised We're all like delighted and surprised We're all like delighted and surprised and we're like, and we're like, and we're like, >> I had that conversation with James Clear >> I had that conversation with James Clear >> I had that conversation with James Clear on this podcast. He doesn't know how he on this podcast. He doesn't know how he on this podcast. He doesn't know how he sold 25 million books or whatever it is sold 25 million books or whatever it is sold 25 million books or whatever it is now. Yeah. now. Yeah. now. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, >> Yeah. I mean, >> Yeah. I mean, probably of all the people who know how probably of all the people who know how probably of all the people who know how he sold books, James is probably the he sold books, James is probably the he sold books, James is probably the person who actually knows how he did it person who actually knows how he did it person who actually knows how he did it because he's very disciplined and because he's very disciplined and because he's very disciplined and strategic, but most of us have just, you strategic, but most of us have just, you strategic, but most of us have just, you know, got lucky. know, got lucky. know, got lucky. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> well, he says he can explain the first, >> well, he says he can explain the first, >> well, he says he can explain the first, I forget what the number was, million. I forget what the number was, million. I forget what the number was, million. He cannot explain 25 or 30 million. He cannot explain 25 or 30 million. He cannot explain 25 or 30 million. >> I think that is true. I feel the same >> I think that is true. I feel the same >> I think that is true. I feel the same scaled down about my book, which is like scaled down about my book, which is like scaled down about my book, which is like I can explain probably the first 50,000, I can explain probably the first 50,000, I can explain probably the first 50,000, but after that it all it all is nuts. but after that it all it all is nuts. but after that it all it all is nuts. Um, but what Mike does is he's like, I'm Um, but what Mike does is he's like, I'm Um, but what Mike does is he's like, I'm going to be the host that brings the going to be the host that brings the going to be the host that brings the people I want to be hanging out with.

people I want to be hanging out with. people I want to be hanging out with. Um, and he he's very good at it and he Um, and he he's very good at it and he Um, and he he's very good at it and he and he made friends and he kind of and he made friends and he kind of and he made friends and he kind of connected with the right people around connected with the right people around connected with the right people around that. So, for the folks listening, that. So, for the folks listening, that. So, for the folks listening, they're like, I'd love to get these they're like, I'd love to get these they're like, I'd love to get these people in. It's like, how could you host people in. It's like, how could you host people in. It's like, how could you host um a gathering of 10 people who would be um a gathering of 10 people who would be um a gathering of 10 people who would be extraordinary for you? Um, you know, and extraordinary for you? Um, you know, and extraordinary for you? Um, you know, and sometimes it's a Oh, here's the here's sometimes it's a Oh, here's the here's sometimes it's a Oh, here's the here's the the a resource that might be useful. the the a resource that might be useful. the the a resource that might be useful. Nick Gray wrote a book called The Nick Gray wrote a book called The Nick Gray wrote a book called The TwoHour Cocktail Party. Have you come TwoHour Cocktail Party. Have you come TwoHour Cocktail Party. Have you come across this, Carrie? across this, Carrie? across this, Carrie? >> No. No. That's new to me. >> No. No. That's new to me. >> No. No. That's new to me. >> Yeah, I love it. So, Nick Gray lives in >> Yeah, I love it. So, Nick Gray lives in >> Yeah, I love it. So, Nick Gray lives in Brooklyn or New York, I think, and he's Brooklyn or New York, I think, and he's Brooklyn or New York, I think, and he's like, "This is a great way to get to like, "This is a great way to get to like, "This is a great way to get to know people fast." Um, host a cocktail know people fast." Um, host a cocktail know people fast." Um, host a cocktail party. Now, most people are, if you're party. Now, most people are, if you're party. Now, most people are, if you're hosting it, feel pretty intimidated by hosting it, feel pretty intimidated by hosting it, feel pretty intimidated by that. Um, and most people who if they're that. Um, and most people who if they're that. Um, and most people who if they're like getting invited to a cocktail like getting invited to a cocktail like getting invited to a cocktail party, they're like, "Uh, I kind of want party, they're like, "Uh, I kind of want party, they're like, "Uh, I kind of want to go, but man, that could be terrible." to go, but man, that could be terrible." to go, but man, that could be terrible." So, the promise is it's only 2 hours. So, the promise is it's only 2 hours. So, the promise is it's only 2 hours. You host it on a Tuesday or a Wednesday You host it on a Tuesday or a Wednesday You host it on a Tuesday or a Wednesday when most people have nothing on. You when most people have nothing on. You when most people have nothing on. You guarantee that you will kick them out at guarantee that you will kick them out at guarantee that you will kick them out at 9:00, start at 7:00, done at 9:00. So, 9:00, start at 7:00, done at 9:00. So, 9:00, start at 7:00, done at 9:00. So, everyone's [clears throat] like, "Oh, everyone's [clears throat] like, "Oh, everyone's [clears throat] like, "Oh, that's great cuz I don't want to stay up that's great cuz I don't want to stay up that's great cuz I don't want to stay up late on a week night. I need to go to late on a week night. I need to go to late on a week night. I need to go to bed." Um, it involves some light bed." Um, it involves some light bed." Um, it involves some light facilitation. You know, you get a way of facilitation. You know, you get a way of facilitation. You know, you get a way of introducing each other and a two or introducing each other and a two or introducing each other and a two or three times where you bring a group three times where you bring a group three times where you bring a group together and kind of mix them around a together and kind of mix them around a together and kind of mix them around a bit so you don't get stuck with the same bit so you don't get stuck with the same bit so you don't get stuck with the same person. You got lots of water and maybe person. You got lots of water and maybe person. You got lots of water and maybe a cup a bottle of wine or two and some a cup a bottle of wine or two and some a cup a bottle of wine or two and some grapes. You know, it's low low key. And grapes. You know, it's low low key. And grapes. You know, it's low low key. And it is a fantastic way to go, I'm going

it is a fantastic way to go, I'm going it is a fantastic way to go, I'm going to host. I'm going to gather. I'm going to host. I'm going to gather. I'm going to host. I'm going to gather. I'm going to start making relationships with to start making relationships with to start making relationships with people I don't quite know yet. Um, I've people I don't quite know yet. Um, I've people I don't quite know yet. Um, I've done it two or three times and it's been done it two or three times and it's been done it two or three times and it's been a ton of fun. This episode is brought to a ton of fun. This episode is brought to a ton of fun. This episode is brought to you by church salary. So, no surprise, you by church salary. So, no surprise, you by church salary. So, no surprise, costs are rising and as a church leader, costs are rising and as a church leader, costs are rising and as a church leader, you're under pressure. So, how do you you're under pressure. So, how do you you're under pressure. So, how do you ensure you're actually paying your team ensure you're actually paying your team ensure you're actually paying your team fairly? That's why I've invited Aaron fairly? That's why I've invited Aaron fairly? That's why I've invited Aaron Hill, the director of church salary, to Hill, the director of church salary, to Hill, the director of church salary, to tell us about how their new platform can tell us about how their new platform can tell us about how their new platform can help. Aaron, help. Aaron, help. Aaron, >> thanks, Gary. Uh, we've built a suite of >> thanks, Gary. Uh, we've built a suite of >> thanks, Gary. Uh, we've built a suite of analysis tools to help churches analysis tools to help churches analysis tools to help churches understand how much their employees understand how much their employees understand how much their employees should be paid. built on the largest and should be paid. built on the largest and should be paid. built on the largest and by extension the most accurate church by extension the most accurate church by extension the most accurate church specific database in the world. specific database in the world. specific database in the world. >> So, I'm excited about that because I >> So, I'm excited about that because I >> So, I'm excited about that because I spent too many years guessing when I was spent too many years guessing when I was spent too many years guessing when I was a lead pastor. Um, why can't leaders a lead pastor. Um, why can't leaders a lead pastor. Um, why can't leaders rely on some of the free guides you can rely on some of the free guides you can rely on some of the free guides you can find online? Because there's a lot of find online? Because there's a lot of find online? Because there's a lot of them these days. them these days. them these days. >> Yeah, I get that question a lot. And you >> Yeah, I get that question a lot. And you >> Yeah, I get that question a lot. And you know, the short answer is you get what know, the short answer is you get what know, the short answer is you get what you pay for. So, at Church Salary, we you pay for. So, at Church Salary, we you pay for. So, at Church Salary, we don't cut corners. We're not interested don't cut corners. We're not interested don't cut corners. We're not interested in delivering some of these catch-all in delivering some of these catch-all in delivering some of these catch-all averages because every church is averages because every church is averages because every church is different. And most of the free guides different. And most of the free guides different. And most of the free guides that you can get online don't really that you can get online don't really that you can get online don't really account for all the key variables that account for all the key variables that account for all the key variables that make your church unique. The most make your church unique. The most make your church unique. The most important one being your church budget.

important one being your church budget. important one being your church budget. And so at Church Salary, because we And so at Church Salary, because we And so at Church Salary, because we understand how pay works, our platform understand how pay works, our platform understand how pay works, our platform can turn trusted church compensation can turn trusted church compensation can turn trusted church compensation data into personalized recommendations data into personalized recommendations data into personalized recommendations so leaders can make fair, informed so leaders can make fair, informed so leaders can make fair, informed decisions for their teams. decisions for their teams. decisions for their teams. >> Well, Erin, thanks so much for that. I >> Well, Erin, thanks so much for that. I >> Well, Erin, thanks so much for that. I appreciate it. And if you as a leader appreciate it. And if you as a leader appreciate it. And if you as a leader need practical tools and trusted data need practical tools and trusted data need practical tools and trusted data built for actual real churches, head to built for actual real churches, head to built for actual real churches, head to churchy.com/carry. churchy.com/carry. churchy.com/carry. I'd love you to use the particular link I'd love you to use the particular link I'd love you to use the particular link to the show. And so that is to the show. And so that is to the show. And so that is churchy.com/cy. This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by ministry brands. So if you lead a ministry brands. So if you lead a ministry brands. So if you lead a church, one of the biggest questions church, one of the biggest questions church, one of the biggest questions right now is how is giving changing and right now is how is giving changing and right now is how is giving changing and what should we be paying attention to what should we be paying attention to what should we be paying attention to heading into the second part of 2026? heading into the second part of 2026? heading into the second part of 2026? And that's why I want to tell you about And that's why I want to tell you about And that's why I want to tell you about the new 2026 annual church giving report the new 2026 annual church giving report the new 2026 annual church giving report from ministry brands. It's a free report from ministry brands. It's a free report from ministry brands. It's a free report and it breaks down the latest trends in and it breaks down the latest trends in and it breaks down the latest trends in church generosity, digital giving, donor church generosity, digital giving, donor church generosity, digital giving, donor behavior, and financial engagement. All behavior, and financial engagement. All behavior, and financial engagement. All designed to help church leaders make designed to help church leaders make designed to help church leaders make smarter decisions in a changing ministry smarter decisions in a changing ministry smarter decisions in a changing ministry landscape. So whether you're a lead landscape. So whether you're a lead landscape. So whether you're a lead pastor, executive pastor, finance pastor, executive pastor, finance pastor, executive pastor, finance leader, or part of a ministry team, this leader, or part of a ministry team, this leader, or part of a ministry team, this report offers real practical insights report offers real practical insights report offers real practical insights backed by actual church data, you can backed by actual church data, you can backed by actual church data, you can download your free copy today at download your free copy today at download your free copy today at ministrybrands.com/carry.

ministrybrands.com/carry. ministrybrands.com/carry. That's ministrybrands.com/carry. That's ministrybrands.com/carry. That's ministrybrands.com/carry. And there must be something I mean, you And there must be something I mean, you And there must be something I mean, you just got back. I think I saw you post just got back. I think I saw you post just got back. I think I saw you post about that from uh Michael's gathering about that from uh Michael's gathering about that from uh Michael's gathering of authors. What does he do well? What of authors. What does he do well? What of authors. What does he do well? What are the qualities and characteristics are the qualities and characteristics are the qualities and characteristics that make you and James Clear and Donald that make you and James Clear and Donald that make you and James Clear and Donald Miller who have no shortage of Miller who have no shortage of Miller who have no shortage of invitations in front of them? invitations in front of them? invitations in front of them? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Say yes to that one. What What do you >> Say yes to that one. What What do you >> Say yes to that one. What What do you think is the magnet there? think is the magnet there? think is the magnet there? >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, I think it that to a degree it's like, I think it that to a degree it's like, I think it that to a degree it's like, oh my goodness, look at these other oh my goodness, look at these other oh my goodness, look at these other people. So, almost everybody there has a people. So, almost everybody there has a people. So, almost everybody there has a a slight imposter syndrome of like, I'm a slight imposter syndrome of like, I'm a slight imposter syndrome of like, I'm not entirely sure how I got invited not entirely sure how I got invited not entirely sure how I got invited here, but I will take it. Um but one of here, but I will take it. Um but one of here, but I will take it. Um but one of the things that um is really clear is the things that um is really clear is the things that um is really clear is this is a generous group where we are this is a generous group where we are this is a generous group where we are attempting to give more than we take. attempting to give more than we take. attempting to give more than we take. >> Um and Mike role models that and sets >> Um and Mike role models that and sets >> Um and Mike role models that and sets that expectation really on early on. Don that expectation really on early on. Don that expectation really on early on. Don Miller who you know wrote Story Brand Miller who you know wrote Story Brand Miller who you know wrote Story Brand 2.0 and some other um books. He he is a 2.0 and some other um books. He he is a 2.0 and some other um books. He he is a fantastic host and he and his wife are fantastic host and he and his wife are fantastic host and he and his wife are very committed to being great hosts. So very committed to being great hosts. So very committed to being great hosts. So we also get the kind of the bonus of we also get the kind of the bonus of we also get the kind of the bonus of hanging out in his fancy Nashville hanging out in his fancy Nashville hanging out in his fancy Nashville >> pad. Yes. Estate. Yeah. So it's a >> pad. Yes. Estate. Yeah. So it's a >> pad. Yes. Estate. Yeah. So it's a combination of these things I think.

combination of these things I think. combination of these things I think. >> No, those are good notes. And you know >> No, those are good notes. And you know >> No, those are good notes. And you know we had Bill Gurley on recently. I don't we had Bill Gurley on recently. I don't we had Bill Gurley on recently. I don't know whether you know Bill or know of know whether you know Bill or know of know whether you know Bill or know of him. him. him. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> Yeah. Silicon Valley investor. He said >> Yeah. Silicon Valley investor. He said >> Yeah. Silicon Valley investor. He said the other thing you can do is if those the other thing you can do is if those the other thing you can do is if those doors are closed to you, just convene doors are closed to you, just convene doors are closed to you, just convene the brightest people that you actually the brightest people that you actually the brightest people that you actually have access to. If you can't get Don have access to. If you can't get Don have access to. If you can't get Don Miller, you probably know someone who Miller, you probably know someone who Miller, you probably know someone who sold a thousand books or a hundred sold a thousand books or a hundred sold a thousand books or a hundred thousand books and thousand books and thousand books and >> or whatever you're, you know, leads a >> or whatever you're, you know, leads a >> or whatever you're, you know, leads a church that's a little bit bigger than church that's a little bit bigger than church that's a little bit bigger than your church, right? your church, right? your church, right? >> Invite them around. And he talks about >> Invite them around. And he talks about >> Invite them around. And he talks about peer groups and then what happens peer groups and then what happens peer groups and then what happens particularly if you're young is often particularly if you're young is often particularly if you're young is often those circles people do incredible those circles people do incredible those circles people do incredible things, things, things, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And all of a sudden, you know, you've >> And all of a sudden, you know, you've >> And all of a sudden, you know, you've been meeting for 15 years, but now been meeting for 15 years, but now been meeting for 15 years, but now they're they're leading something much they're they're leading something much they're they're leading something much more significant than when you started. more significant than when you started. more significant than when you started. And I thought that was really good And I thought that was really good And I thought that was really good advice. advice. advice. >> That is great. I mean, I'm amazed that >> That is great. I mean, I'm amazed that >> That is great. I mean, I'm amazed that I'm now at the age where all my spotty, I'm now at the age where all my spotty, I'm now at the age where all my spotty, awkward, terrible teenage friends from awkward, terrible teenage friends from awkward, terrible teenage friends from high school are all CEOs and venture high school are all CEOs and venture high school are all CEOs and venture capitalists and kind of uh [laughter] capitalists and kind of uh [laughter] capitalists and kind of uh [laughter] doing these things. I'm like, I have doing these things. I'm like, I have doing these things. I'm like, I have photos of you from high school that photos of you from high school that photos of you from high school that would destroy your very impressive would destroy your very impressive would destroy your very impressive corporate career if I chose to if I corporate career if I chose to if I corporate career if I chose to if I chose to use them.

chose to use them. chose to use them. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> it's true. I I mean just to I I think >> it's true. I I mean just to I I think >> it's true. I I mean just to I I think there's something really interesting there's something really interesting there's something really interesting about inviting um uh weak connections about inviting um uh weak connections about inviting um uh weak connections into your life, not just strong into your life, not just strong into your life, not just strong connections. connections. connections. >> So like I'm hosting a dinner tonight. Um >> So like I'm hosting a dinner tonight. Um >> So like I'm hosting a dinner tonight. Um my friend Dan Pontiffract is in town and my friend Dan Pontiffract is in town and my friend Dan Pontiffract is in town and Dan is a good friend of mine and he's Dan is a good friend of mine and he's Dan is a good friend of mine and he's got a a new book out. He's speaking it got a a new book out. He's speaking it got a a new book out. He's speaking it locally about it uh at the moment. The locally about it uh at the moment. The locally about it uh at the moment. The other three people are coming. I don't other three people are coming. I don't other three people are coming. I don't know. I've never met them before, know. I've never met them before, know. I've never met them before, >> but I've I I I've been introduced to >> but I've I I I've been introduced to >> but I've I I I've been introduced to them and I've kind of known of them and them and I've kind of known of them and them and I've kind of known of them and um um and I've said come and have dinner um um and I've said come and have dinner um um and I've said come and have dinner with me and my friend Dan and we'll find with me and my friend Dan and we'll find with me and my friend Dan and we'll find a way of connecting. And so I don't yet a way of connecting. And so I don't yet a way of connecting. And so I don't yet know whether this will be a successful know whether this will be a successful know whether this will be a successful dinner party um or a gathering, but it's dinner party um or a gathering, but it's dinner party um or a gathering, but it's part of me mixing it up and continuing part of me mixing it up and continuing part of me mixing it up and continuing trying to bring new threads into the trying to bring new threads into the trying to bring new threads into the know, whatever my metaphor is, bringing know, whatever my metaphor is, bringing know, whatever my metaphor is, bringing new kind of energy into the group to new kind of energy into the group to new kind of energy into the group to kind of go, how does this shake things kind of go, how does this shake things kind of go, how does this shake things up? Maybe I'll find somebody who is more up? Maybe I'll find somebody who is more up? Maybe I'll find somebody who is more than just a good occasional dinner than just a good occasional dinner than just a good occasional dinner person, but could be much more than person, but could be much more than person, but could be much more than that.

that. that. >> Yeah. So some of that is exposure and >> Yeah. So some of that is exposure and >> Yeah. So some of that is exposure and reps. It's like you didn't bank at all reps. It's like you didn't bank at all reps. It's like you didn't bank at all on this one retreat. It's like you're on this one retreat. It's like you're on this one retreat. It's like you're hosting a two-hour cocktail party, hosting a two-hour cocktail party, hosting a two-hour cocktail party, >> a dinner for someone you do know. >> a dinner for someone you do know. >> a dinner for someone you do know. >> You do that 10 or 12, well, let's say >> You do that 10 or 12, well, let's say >> You do that 10 or 12, well, let's say half a dozen times in the next 12 half a dozen times in the next 12 half a dozen times in the next 12 months, you're going to have a very months, you're going to have a very months, you're going to have a very different relational circle than you different relational circle than you different relational circle than you have right now. have right now. have right now. >> And I I'll leave this by just saying a >> And I I'll leave this by just saying a >> And I I'll leave this by just saying a quote that I heard from somebody and he quote that I heard from somebody and he quote that I heard from somebody and he said, "The price the price you pay for said, "The price the price you pay for said, "The price the price you pay for community is inconvenience." community is inconvenience." community is inconvenience." And I love that because it actually says And I love that because it actually says And I love that because it actually says this takes some work. You know, this takes some work. You know, this takes some work. You know, everybody wants to be part of a everybody wants to be part of a everybody wants to be part of a community. Not everybody's willing to do community. Not everybody's willing to do community. Not everybody's willing to do the work to be part of a community. If the work to be part of a community. If the work to be part of a community. If you want to build community and you want to build community and you want to build community and connection, it does take some work and connection, it does take some work and connection, it does take some work and it takes some rejection and it takes it takes some rejection and it takes it takes some rejection and it takes some awkward moments where you're like, some awkward moments where you're like, some awkward moments where you're like, I wish I wasn't trapped in a I wish I wasn't trapped in a I wish I wasn't trapped in a conversation with this person [laughter] conversation with this person [laughter] conversation with this person [laughter] because this is not this is not my because this is not this is not my because this is not this is not my person. Um, but it's uh you're playing person. Um, but it's uh you're playing person. Um, but it's uh you're playing for the bigger the bigger win. for the bigger the bigger win. for the bigger the bigger win. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, Um, Um, you know, most of the people listening you know, most of the people listening you know, most of the people listening to this are not in a conventional job. to this are not in a conventional job. to this are not in a conventional job. Even if they're in ministry, working at Even if they're in ministry, working at Even if they're in ministry, working at a church, they're either launching a church, they're either launching a church, they're either launching something, reinventing a church. Um, something, reinventing a church. Um, something, reinventing a church. Um, there you always feel like you're making there you always feel like you're making there you always feel like you're making it up as you go along. And that's why I it up as you go along. And that's why I it up as you go along. And that's why I love I love, love I love, love I love, >> you know, connecting with people like >> you know, connecting with people like >> you know, connecting with people like you, Michael, because you you didn't you, Michael, because you you didn't you, Michael, because you you didn't really have a mold. You created a box of really have a mold. You created a box of really have a mold. You created a box of crayons. you carved out a a a unique crayons. you carved out a a a unique crayons. you carved out a a a unique >> career path for yourself. When you look >> career path for yourself. When you look >> career path for yourself. When you look back on it, you can't reinvent the last back on it, you can't reinvent the last back on it, you can't reinvent the last 20 or 25 years. It's not 1998 anymore. 20 or 25 years. It's not 1998 anymore. 20 or 25 years. It's not 1998 anymore. It's not 2012 anymore, but there were It's not 2012 anymore, but there were It's not 2012 anymore, but there were probably inflection points for you along probably inflection points for you along probably inflection points for you along the way where stuff really started to the way where stuff really started to the way where stuff really started to click and it became a living rather than click and it became a living rather than click and it became a living rather than an experiment and an experiment and an experiment and >> successful and thriving rather than >> successful and thriving rather than >> successful and thriving rather than >> struggling along. I'm probably going to >> struggling along. I'm probably going to >> struggling along. I'm probably going to have to shut the doors. Looking back on have to shut the doors. Looking back on have to shut the doors. Looking back on it now from where you sit, what were it now from where you sit, what were it now from where you sit, what were some of those inflection points for you some of those inflection points for you some of those inflection points for you where and and what contributed to those where and and what contributed to those where and and what contributed to those inflection points that made it a a inflection points that made it a a inflection points that made it a a viable viable viable career for you?

career for you? career for you? >> It's a great question. It's immediately >> It's a great question. It's immediately >> It's a great question. It's immediately bringing up Jim Collins's really helpful bringing up Jim Collins's really helpful bringing up Jim Collins's really helpful metaphor that the way you figure out metaphor that the way you figure out metaphor that the way you figure out strategy is you fire bullets and then strategy is you fire bullets and then strategy is you fire bullets and then you fire a cannonball. you fire a cannonball. you fire a cannonball. >> Yes. and his, you know, what that's >> Yes. and his, you know, what that's >> Yes. and his, you know, what that's meant to teach is um firing bullets is, meant to teach is um firing bullets is, meant to teach is um firing bullets is, you know, the small experiments that you you know, the small experiments that you you know, the small experiments that you run to try and figure stuff out. You run to try and figure stuff out. You run to try and figure stuff out. You might have some approximate idea of what might have some approximate idea of what might have some approximate idea of what you're going for, but you need to then you're going for, but you need to then you're going for, but you need to then kind of test your ideas with reality and kind of test your ideas with reality and kind of test your ideas with reality and see what works and what doesn't work. see what works and what doesn't work. see what works and what doesn't work. And then when you figure out what the And then when you figure out what the And then when you figure out what the target is, you kind of fire the target is, you kind of fire the target is, you kind of fire the cannonball. Uh you commit. Jim Collins cannonball. Uh you commit. Jim Collins cannonball. Uh you commit. Jim Collins would say that most of us don't fire would say that most of us don't fire would say that most of us don't fire enough bullets and most of us don't fire enough bullets and most of us don't fire enough bullets and most of us don't fire the cannonball when we've found the the cannonball when we've found the the cannonball when we've found the target. target. target. >> True. >> True. >> True. >> Um, and so, >> Um, and so, >> Um, and so, uh, I wish I could I wish I could tell uh, I wish I could I wish I could tell uh, I wish I could I wish I could tell you the story that I I thoughtfully and you the story that I I thoughtfully and you the story that I I thoughtfully and deliberately fired bullets and then deliberately fired bullets and then deliberately fired bullets and then fired cannonballs. It's more fired cannonballs. It's more fired cannonballs. It's more accidentally accidentally accidentally bullets and fire cannonballs, but I've bullets and fire cannonballs, but I've bullets and fire cannonballs, but I've done some of that. You know, one of the done some of that. You know, one of the done some of that. You know, one of the inflection points was um inflection points was um inflection points was um uh well, the inflection point I had no uh well, the inflection point I had no uh well, the inflection point I had no control over was um having a job lined control over was um having a job lined control over was um having a job lined up um and I was flying from Boston to up um and I was flying from Boston to up um and I was flying from Boston to Toronto uh to to start this new job.

Toronto uh to to start this new job. Toronto uh to to start this new job. Never been to Toronto before, but I'd Never been to Toronto before, but I'd Never been to Toronto before, but I'd lined up a job. My wife and I decided to lined up a job. My wife and I decided to lined up a job. My wife and I decided to go there. Our flight out of Boston was go there. Our flight out of Boston was go there. Our flight out of Boston was on 911. on 911. on 911. um which meant that by the time we did um which meant that by the time we did um which meant that by the time we did finally get to Toronto some days later finally get to Toronto some days later finally get to Toronto some days later the job I had lined up had vanished the job I had lined up had vanished the job I had lined up had vanished which kind of kickstarted me becoming an which kind of kickstarted me becoming an which kind of kickstarted me becoming an entrepreneur. So that was an inflection entrepreneur. So that was an inflection entrepreneur. So that was an inflection point which was just lucky in some ways. point which was just lucky in some ways. point which was just lucky in some ways. I mean terrible in the bigger picture I mean terrible in the bigger picture I mean terrible in the bigger picture thing but for me uh it it shifted the thing but for me uh it it shifted the thing but for me uh it it shifted the universe that forced me to go out on on universe that forced me to go out on on universe that forced me to go out on on my own. my own. my own. One of the surprises One of the surprises One of the surprises um was I was absolutely clear that the um was I was absolutely clear that the um was I was absolutely clear that the the work I would do as an independent the work I would do as an independent the work I would do as an independent freelancing sort of person would be freelancing sort of person would be freelancing sort of person would be coaching people because I'd actually coaching people because I'd actually coaching people because I'd actually been, you know, I trained as a crisis been, you know, I trained as a crisis been, you know, I trained as a crisis counselor when I was 18. I'd been in counselor when I was 18. I'd been in counselor when I was 18. I'd been in this world. I was I was pretty good at this world. I was I was pretty good at this world. I was I was pretty good at it. I was like, it was such a natural it. I was like, it was such a natural it. I was like, it was such a natural next step. But in some ways, I felt I've next step. But in some ways, I felt I've next step. But in some ways, I felt I've been training for it my whole life. And been training for it my whole life. And been training for it my whole life. And I was like, this is great. finally I get I was like, this is great. finally I get I was like, this is great. finally I get to to do this and I built a coaching to to do this and I built a coaching to to do this and I built a coaching practice and I really didn't like it practice and I really didn't like it practice and I really didn't like it and it was so surprising. Um and I think and it was so surprising. Um and I think and it was so surprising. Um and I think one of the tipping points Carrie was one of the tipping points Carrie was one of the tipping points Carrie was realizing quickly that this wasn't what realizing quickly that this wasn't what realizing quickly that this wasn't what I was um this is not the thing I was I was um this is not the thing I was I was um this is not the thing I was looking for. This wasn't a cannonball.

looking for. This wasn't a cannonball. looking for. This wasn't a cannonball. This is a bullet. And actually needing This is a bullet. And actually needing This is a bullet. And actually needing to shut down my coaching practice. to shut down my coaching practice. to shut down my coaching practice. So there's there's something about um So there's there's something about um So there's there's something about um setting things up so that you can try setting things up so that you can try setting things up so that you can try stuff out and then uh then move on from stuff out and then uh then move on from stuff out and then uh then move on from it. Again, it's it's about firing that it. Again, it's it's about firing that it. Again, it's it's about firing that bullet. Um even when it is deeply bullet. Um even when it is deeply bullet. Um even when it is deeply disappointing as it was for me cuz I was disappointing as it was for me cuz I was disappointing as it was for me cuz I was like I was so sure I was going to be a like I was so sure I was going to be a like I was so sure I was going to be a great coach. Um well, this is ironic great coach. Um well, this is ironic great coach. Um well, this is ironic because I didn't realize that you were because I didn't realize that you were because I didn't realize that you were at first a coach. shut it down because at first a coach. shut it down because at first a coach. shut it down because the thing you are best known for is your the thing you are best known for is your the thing you are best known for is your book the coaching habit. book the coaching habit. book the coaching habit. >> Yeah. But what >> Yeah. But what >> Yeah. But what >> so it was a bit of a pivot then to move >> so it was a bit of a pivot then to move >> so it was a bit of a pivot then to move from I am a coach to I'm going to teach from I am a coach to I'm going to teach from I am a coach to I'm going to teach people how to coach or how did that come people how to coach or how did that come people how to coach or how did that come about? about? about? >> Yeah. It's like I am a I am above and >> Yeah. It's like I am a I am above and >> Yeah. It's like I am a I am above and beyond all else a facilitator and a beyond all else a facilitator and a beyond all else a facilitator and a teacher. teacher. teacher. And it turns out that writing books is And it turns out that writing books is And it turns out that writing books is one of the places that I teach well in one of the places that I teach well in one of the places that I teach well in because I know how I'm a I'm a decent because I know how I'm a I'm a decent because I know how I'm a I'm a decent writer and I've got strong opinions on writer and I've got strong opinions on writer and I've got strong opinions on how to write books that that that how to write books that that that how to write books that that that resonate.

resonate. resonate. That's slightly misguided at times That's slightly misguided at times That's slightly misguided at times because there's some books I've written because there's some books I've written because there's some books I've written that hasn't resonated with anybody that hasn't resonated with anybody that hasn't resonated with anybody apparently. Um but some of them have. apparently. Um but some of them have. apparently. Um but some of them have. Um, but I'm I'm much better as a Um, but I'm I'm much better as a Um, but I'm I'm much better as a teacher. teacher. teacher. >> But the other pivoting thing for me, >> But the other pivoting thing for me, >> But the other pivoting thing for me, Carrie, as you say this is very early on Carrie, as you say this is very early on Carrie, as you say this is very early on once I started doing this work, um, I I once I started doing this work, um, I I once I started doing this work, um, I I found a kind of a northstar, a mission found a kind of a northstar, a mission found a kind of a northstar, a mission or vision for for me to direct my work or vision for for me to direct my work or vision for for me to direct my work and I still hold that today and it is to and I still hold that today and it is to and I still hold that today and it is to infect a billion people with the infect a billion people with the infect a billion people with the possibility virus. possibility virus. possibility virus. Now possibly virus as a metaphor was far Now possibly virus as a metaphor was far Now possibly virus as a metaphor was far better precoid rather than postco that's better precoid rather than postco that's better precoid rather than postco that's it's a it's a complicated thing now far it's a it's a complicated thing now far it's a it's a complicated thing now far enough on the other side we get it enough on the other side we get it enough on the other side we get it >> you know there's a lot of virus you know >> you know there's a lot of virus you know >> you know there's a lot of virus you know whatever um but what that holds for me whatever um but what that holds for me whatever um but what that holds for me is like the the shift I'm trying to make is like the the shift I'm trying to make is like the the shift I'm trying to make in the world is to give people the in the world is to give people the in the world is to give people the courage the awareness to see that they courage the awareness to see that they courage the awareness to see that they have choices and the courage to make the have choices and the courage to make the have choices and the courage to make the braver choicem M braver choicem M braver choicem M >> that's this kind of foundational piece >> that's this kind of foundational piece >> that's this kind of foundational piece of work that I'm doing cuz for me that's of work that I'm doing cuz for me that's of work that I'm doing cuz for me that's giving that's enabling people to claim giving that's enabling people to claim giving that's enabling people to claim agency and their humanity.

agency and their humanity. agency and their humanity. Um and and the billion people means that Um and and the billion people means that Um and and the billion people means that I have to find projects that have scale. I have to find projects that have scale. I have to find projects that have scale. And so the the the virus means I need to And so the the the virus means I need to And so the the the virus means I need to put stuff out in the world that spreads put stuff out in the world that spreads put stuff out in the world that spreads without me. And so this is a really without me. And so this is a really without me. And so this is a really powerful tool for me because it keeps powerful tool for me because it keeps powerful tool for me because it keeps making me ask what's the biggest boldest making me ask what's the biggest boldest making me ask what's the biggest boldest thing I can do and how do I not make thing I can do and how do I not make thing I can do and how do I not make myself the hero of that necessarily. And myself the hero of that necessarily. And myself the hero of that necessarily. And one of the things about coaching is it one of the things about coaching is it one of the things about coaching is it it it doesn't scale very well. Like at it it doesn't scale very well. Like at it it doesn't scale very well. Like at my best I can coach 20 people and maybe my best I can coach 20 people and maybe my best I can coach 20 people and maybe they're influencing the 10 people around they're influencing the 10 people around they're influencing the 10 people around them but that's not a lot of people. them but that's not a lot of people. them but that's not a lot of people. That's not going to get me to a billion That's not going to get me to a billion That's not going to get me to a billion people anytime fast. So that coming up people anytime fast. So that coming up people anytime fast. So that coming up with that as my kind of uh north star with that as my kind of uh north star with that as my kind of uh north star was a a really significant moment. It was a a really significant moment. It was a a really significant moment. It continues to be for me. continues to be for me. continues to be for me. >> How do you how do you measure a billion? >> How do you how do you measure a billion? >> How do you how do you measure a billion? Is that just like metaphorical Is that just like metaphorical Is that just like metaphorical ambitious or do you actually have ambitious or do you actually have ambitious or do you actually have metrics behind it? metrics behind it? metrics behind it? >> No, it's it's it's classic Michael Jazz >> No, it's it's it's classic Michael Jazz >> No, it's it's it's classic Michael Jazz hands [laughter] metaphor thing. And I hands [laughter] metaphor thing. And I hands [laughter] metaphor thing. And I actually think if you're setting a actually think if you're setting a actually think if you're setting a mission, mission, mission, it shouldn't be it's typically not it shouldn't be it's typically not it shouldn't be it's typically not measurable. like right you want stuff to measurable. like right you want stuff to measurable. like right you want stuff to be measurable lower down on that kind of be measurable lower down on that kind of be measurable lower down on that kind of scale but from for a mission you want scale but from for a mission you want scale but from for a mission you want something that just feels big enough to something that just feels big enough to something that just feels big enough to go man I'm called forth on this like I'm go man I'm called forth on this like I'm go man I'm called forth on this like I'm I'm I'm never going to touch a billion I'm I'm never going to touch a billion I'm I'm never going to touch a billion people but I'm going to work really hard people but I'm going to work really hard people but I'm going to work really hard to try and touch a billion people those to try and touch a billion people those to try and touch a billion people those are both true are both true are both true >> so I want to pick up on coaching and I >> so I want to pick up on coaching and I >> so I want to pick up on coaching and I want to pick up on the coaching habit so want to pick up on the coaching habit so want to pick up on the coaching habit so self-publishing is a lot easier today

self-publishing is a lot easier today self-publishing is a lot easier today and a lot more options today than 10 and a lot more options today than 10 and a lot more options today than 10 years ago 2016 when you released the the years ago 2016 when you released the the years ago 2016 when you released the the first edition of the coaching habit. first edition of the coaching habit. first edition of the coaching habit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Why did you decide to go self-publishing >> Why did you decide to go self-publishing >> Why did you decide to go self-publishing and what did you learn in the process? and what did you learn in the process? and what did you learn in the process? >> Yeah. When you said I decided to go >> Yeah. When you said I decided to go >> Yeah. When you said I decided to go self-publishing, it [laughter] self-publishing, it [laughter] self-publishing, it [laughter] >> okay was more decided for me. Um Okay. >> okay was more decided for me. Um Okay. >> okay was more decided for me. Um Okay. >> I published with a a New York publisher >> I published with a a New York publisher >> I published with a a New York publisher called Workman. Uh an earlier book of called Workman. Uh an earlier book of called Workman. Uh an earlier book of mine called Do More Great Work. I mine called Do More Great Work. I mine called Do More Great Work. I remember remember remember >> and uh I came to them with my next idea >> and uh I came to them with my next idea >> and uh I came to them with my next idea of book which is something around of book which is something around of book which is something around coaching and they're like great go away coaching and they're like great go away coaching and they're like great go away and write it. So I wrote it and I went, and write it. So I wrote it and I went, and write it. So I wrote it and I went, "Da, here it is. Here's the idea." And "Da, here it is. Here's the idea." And "Da, here it is. Here's the idea." And they're like, "Ah, we don't like that. they're like, "Ah, we don't like that. they're like, "Ah, we don't like that. Why don't you go away and give it Why don't you go away and give it Why don't you go away and give it another shot?" I'm like, "Oh, okay." So another shot?" I'm like, "Oh, okay." So another shot?" I'm like, "Oh, okay." So I went away and we went through this I went away and we went through this I went away and we went through this cycle six or seven times where I would cycle six or seven times where I would cycle six or seven times where I would come up with a new version of the book come up with a new version of the book come up with a new version of the book and a new way of writing and I'd write a and a new way of writing and I'd write a and a new way of writing and I'd write a chunk of it. Um, and they kept turning chunk of it. Um, and they kept turning chunk of it. Um, and they kept turning me down. And finally, I said, "Look, I'm me down. And finally, I said, "Look, I'm me down. And finally, I said, "Look, I'm going to I'm really clear." You know, it going to I'm really clear." You know, it going to I'm really clear." You know, it actually was helpful because I got actually was helpful because I got actually was helpful because I got really clear on what I thought this book really clear on what I thought this book really clear on what I thought this book would be. I'm like, "All right, this is would be. I'm like, "All right, this is would be. I'm like, "All right, this is it. No more faffing about here. It's it. No more faffing about here. It's it. No more faffing about here. It's like it's either this or I go somewhere like it's either this or I go somewhere like it's either this or I go somewhere else. It's either a yes or a no at this else. It's either a yes or a no at this else. It's either a yes or a no at this stage, not go away and give it another stage, not go away and give it another stage, not go away and give it another shot. And they went no. [laughter] shot. And they went no. [laughter] shot. And they went no. [laughter] >> Wow.

>> Wow. >> Wow. >> And I was I was I was gutted. I was so I >> And I was I was I was gutted. I was so I >> And I was I was I was gutted. I was so I was surprised because you know my was surprised because you know my was surprised because you know my previous book had sold I think 80,000 previous book had sold I think 80,000 previous book had sold I think 80,000 copies with them. copies with them. copies with them. >> Yeah, that's decent. That's like you get >> Yeah, that's decent. That's like you get >> Yeah, that's decent. That's like you get another book deal level. another book deal level. another book deal level. >> That's more than decent. That's like >> That's more than decent. That's like >> That's more than decent. That's like that's a solid beeless book. So I was that's a solid beeless book. So I was that's a solid beeless book. So I was like and I've been teaching this for 5 like and I've been teaching this for 5 like and I've been teaching this for 5 years. So I knew there was an audience years. So I knew there was an audience years. So I knew there was an audience for it, but they for it, but they for it, but they >> Yeah. You'd work chopped it. Yeah. >> Yeah. You'd work chopped it. Yeah. >> Yeah. You'd work chopped it. Yeah. >> Um anyway, so I was, you know, I went >> Um anyway, so I was, you know, I went >> Um anyway, so I was, you know, I went away and licked my wounds for a while away and licked my wounds for a while away and licked my wounds for a while and then went, "Look, I really I really and then went, "Look, I really I really and then went, "Look, I really I really think there's something in this book." think there's something in this book." think there's something in this book." And so I decided to self-publish it. Um And so I decided to self-publish it. Um And so I decided to self-publish it. Um but I made a really clear commitment but I made a really clear commitment but I made a really clear commitment that if I was going to self-publish it, that if I was going to self-publish it, that if I was going to self-publish it, I was going to do it as a professional. I was going to do it as a professional. I was going to do it as a professional. Like I needed this book to be Like I needed this book to be Like I needed this book to be indistinguishable from a book that a a indistinguishable from a book that a a indistinguishable from a book that a a traditional publisher had had published. traditional publisher had had published. traditional publisher had had published. Because there's all sorts of ways that Because there's all sorts of ways that Because there's all sorts of ways that you can sell yourself a bit short in the you can sell yourself a bit short in the you can sell yourself a bit short in the self-publishing. self-publishing. self-publishing. >> Oh, you you used to be able and still >> Oh, you you used to be able and still >> Oh, you you used to be able and still sometimes can tell clearly. You just sometimes can tell clearly. You just sometimes can tell clearly. You just look at it. It's like, okay, this person look at it. It's like, okay, this person look at it. It's like, okay, this person did themselves. did themselves. did themselves. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, so I mean the way it worked is I, >> Um, so I mean the way it worked is I, >> Um, so I mean the way it worked is I, you know, I found an editor, I found a you know, I found an editor, I found a you know, I found an editor, I found a development editor, I found a designer, development editor, I found a designer, development editor, I found a designer, I found a copy editor, and we're doing I found a copy editor, and we're doing I found a copy editor, and we're doing all of that work. The designer, Peter, all of that work. The designer, Peter, all of that work. The designer, Peter, then introduced me to the the company I then introduced me to the the company I then introduced me to the the company I work with now, which is Page 2, who are work with now, which is Page 2, who are work with now, which is Page 2, who are a Vancouver based hybrid publisher. And a Vancouver based hybrid publisher. And a Vancouver based hybrid publisher. And I published um the last five or six I published um the last five or six I published um the last five or six books with them and and am a big fan of books with them and and am a big fan of books with them and and am a big fan of of the way that they work. But it was of the way that they work. But it was of the way that they work. But it was another one of those moments where I'm another one of those moments where I'm another one of those moments where I'm like, I am I am willing to make a bet on

like, I am I am willing to make a bet on like, I am I am willing to make a bet on this. this. this. And part of it, Carrie, is I am pretty And part of it, Carrie, is I am pretty And part of it, Carrie, is I am pretty good at looking at the risks involved good at looking at the risks involved good at looking at the risks involved and understanding what would happen if and understanding what would happen if and understanding what would happen if it failed utterly. it failed utterly. it failed utterly. >> Yeah. It goes to zero. Uh-huh. >> Yeah. It goes to zero. Uh-huh. >> Yeah. It goes to zero. Uh-huh. >> Yeah. And it's like, okay, so what's at >> Yeah. And it's like, okay, so what's at >> Yeah. And it's like, okay, so what's at risk? What's at risk is time and money risk? What's at risk is time and money risk? What's at risk is time and money and uh and opportunity cost and and and uh and opportunity cost and and and uh and opportunity cost and and physical health. These are all the kind physical health. These are all the kind physical health. These are all the kind of things that you're weighing up when of things that you're weighing up when of things that you're weighing up when you're thinking about what's at risk. you're thinking about what's at risk. you're thinking about what's at risk. And with this book, I'm like, "Okay, And with this book, I'm like, "Okay, And with this book, I'm like, "Okay, this book is going to cost me $30 to this book is going to cost me $30 to this book is going to cost me $30 to $40,000, and I I can generate that $40,000, and I I can generate that $40,000, and I I can generate that money. I've got that money to to spend. money. I've got that money to to spend. money. I've got that money to to spend. This is the best idea I've got for um uh This is the best idea I've got for um uh This is the best idea I've got for um uh creating something in the world. Uh uh creating something in the world. Uh uh creating something in the world. Uh uh if I think this is the best use of my if I think this is the best use of my if I think this is the best use of my time, um I'm not at physical danger by time, um I'm not at physical danger by time, um I'm not at physical danger by doing this. I don't have anything that I doing this. I don't have anything that I doing this. I don't have anything that I would put before this in terms of would put before this in terms of would put before this in terms of opportunity cost. So, even if I end up opportunity cost. So, even if I end up opportunity cost. So, even if I end up with, you know, 10,000 books that I'll with, you know, 10,000 books that I'll with, you know, 10,000 books that I'll be giving to my parents for Christmas be giving to my parents for Christmas be giving to my parents for Christmas presents for the rest of their lives, presents for the rest of their lives, presents for the rest of their lives, I'm I'm I'm up for this adventure I'm I'm I'm up for this adventure I'm I'm I'm up for this adventure because I can also see the upside, which because I can also see the upside, which because I can also see the upside, which is it might help me sell a course or is it might help me sell a course or is it might help me sell a course or two. Um, it might help raise my profile two. Um, it might help raise my profile two. Um, it might help raise my profile as a speaker. I I mean, I never dreamed as a speaker. I I mean, I never dreamed as a speaker. I I mean, I never dreamed it would become a, you know, a million it would become a, you know, a million it would become a, you know, a million and a half copy selling uh book, but I and a half copy selling uh book, but I and a half copy selling uh book, but I was like, I can see the upside and was like, I can see the upside and was like, I can see the upside and downside and I'm willing to commit to downside and I'm willing to commit to downside and I'm willing to commit to that. Whereas I would notice that a lot that. Whereas I would notice that a lot that. Whereas I would notice that a lot of people feel um intuitively risk

of people feel um intuitively risk of people feel um intuitively risk averse and I think it's really worth averse and I think it's really worth averse and I think it's really worth sitting with the question what's what's sitting with the question what's what's sitting with the question what's what's truly at risk here um and am I able to truly at risk here um and am I able to truly at risk here um and am I able to tolerate that risk and that ambiguity to tolerate that risk and that ambiguity to tolerate that risk and that ambiguity to commit to a project that is big and and commit to a project that is big and and commit to a project that is big and and a bit scary but um perhaps worth doing. a bit scary but um perhaps worth doing. a bit scary but um perhaps worth doing. Looking back on it, it's interesting, Looking back on it, it's interesting, Looking back on it, it's interesting, you know, because we were chatting you know, because we were chatting you know, because we were chatting before we hit record before we hit record before we hit record >> my book before we started singing. Um, >> my book before we started singing. Um, >> my book before we started singing. Um, you know, about my new book. And it was you know, about my new book. And it was you know, about my new book. And it was interesting. My publisher, who I've interesting. My publisher, who I've interesting. My publisher, who I've loved working with, had a writer first loved working with, had a writer first loved working with, had a writer first refusal. I pitched it to them refusal. I pitched it to them refusal. I pitched it to them >> and they're like, "Do you have any other >> and they're like, "Do you have any other >> and they're like, "Do you have any other ideas?" ideas?" ideas?" >> I'm like, "No, I'm [clears throat] going >> I'm like, "No, I'm [clears throat] going >> I'm like, "No, I'm [clears throat] going to write this book on AI." Like, to write this book on AI." Like, to write this book on AI." Like, anything? Anything? Do you have any anything? Anything? Do you have any anything? Anything? Do you have any anything else? Like any other I'm like, anything else? Like any other I'm like, anything else? Like any other I'm like, >> "No, I'm going to do this book. I have >> "No, I'm going to do this book. I have >> "No, I'm going to do this book. I have other ideas, but I got to get this out. other ideas, but I got to get this out. other ideas, but I got to get this out. This is a mission. And they're like, "AI This is a mission. And they're like, "AI This is a mission. And they're like, "AI books don't sell." I'm like, "Okay, books don't sell." I'm like, "Okay, books don't sell." I'm like, "Okay, that's fine." And I wanted to experiment that's fine." And I wanted to experiment that's fine." And I wanted to experiment with self-publishing. So, you know, I with self-publishing. So, you know, I with self-publishing. So, you know, I immediately signed with somebody I'd immediately signed with somebody I'd immediately signed with somebody I'd been talking to on the side. been talking to on the side. been talking to on the side. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we're working with Forefront right >> And we're working with Forefront right >> And we're working with Forefront right now. And it's a hybrid publisher like now. And it's a hybrid publisher like now. And it's a hybrid publisher like Page 2, and they work with Simon and Page 2, and they work with Simon and Page 2, and they work with Simon and Schustster. So, another major New York Schustster. So, another major New York Schustster. So, another major New York house.

house. house. >> And I could not be more excited about >> And I could not be more excited about >> And I could not be more excited about this. Went through all the calculations this. Went through all the calculations this. Went through all the calculations you did. Here's how much we're you did. Here's how much we're you did. Here's how much we're investing. Here's what we could lose. investing. Here's what we could lose. investing. Here's what we could lose. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. etc., etc. But, um, you're right, it is etc., etc. But, um, you're right, it is etc., etc. But, um, you're right, it is a bit of a bet on yourself. a bit of a bet on yourself. a bit of a bet on yourself. >> It's also >> It's also >> It's also you going, I know my audience and you you going, I know my audience and you you going, I know my audience and you don't. don't. don't. >> Also, I know my business and my mission >> Also, I know my business and my mission >> Also, I know my business and my mission and my purpose and you don't. and my purpose and you don't. and my purpose and you don't. >> I think I know what my audience needs or >> I think I know what my audience needs or >> I think I know what my audience needs or will need very soon. And this book has will need very soon. And this book has will need very soon. And this book has got to get in their hands. I just I'm got to get in their hands. I just I'm got to get in their hands. I just I'm committed to it. And the challenge with committed to it. And the challenge with committed to it. And the challenge with a traditional publisher is when you a traditional publisher is when you a traditional publisher is when you pitch them a book, what they see is a pitch them a book, what they see is a pitch them a book, what they see is a book. book. book. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's like that's that's as far as >> That's like that's that's as far as >> That's like that's that's as far as their imagination goes. They're like, their imagination goes. They're like, their imagination goes. They're like, "Is it a book? Can we sell copies of "Is it a book? Can we sell copies of "Is it a book? Can we sell copies of your book?" your book?" your book?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Whereas if you're Carrie, you're going, >> Whereas if you're Carrie, you're going, >> Whereas if you're Carrie, you're going, "This is a a piece of thought leadership "This is a a piece of thought leadership "This is a a piece of thought leadership that will support the pastors and the that will support the pastors and the that will support the pastors and the people I serve in in my community. Um, people I serve in in my community. Um, people I serve in in my community. Um, this is a book that I can use to give this is a book that I can use to give this is a book that I can use to give away for free. there's other ways I can away for free. there's other ways I can away for free. there's other ways I can monetize around that. So I don't need to monetize around that. So I don't need to monetize around that. So I don't need to necessarily sell every book. What I'm necessarily sell every book. What I'm necessarily sell every book. What I'm doing is is um in this using my best doing is is um in this using my best doing is is um in this using my best skills as an act of service for the skills as an act of service for the skills as an act of service for the people who I've really committed to to people who I've really committed to to people who I've really committed to to say these are the people who I serve in say these are the people who I serve in say these are the people who I serve in this world. Um and it it just becomes an this world. Um and it it just becomes an this world. Um and it it just becomes an easy decision which is like it's all easy decision which is like it's all easy decision which is like it's all right. I don't mind. Say yes, say no.

right. I don't mind. Say yes, say no. right. I don't mind. Say yes, say no. This book is getting published. I'm just This book is getting published. I'm just This book is getting published. I'm just giving you a choice to to get it giving you a choice to to get it giving you a choice to to get it published with you if you'd like. Um and published with you if you'd like. Um and published with you if you'd like. Um and if you if you if you >> No, that that was basically it. And >> No, that that was basically it. And >> No, that that was basically it. And you're exactly right. It's funny because you're exactly right. It's funny because you're exactly right. It's funny because I ran into that particularly with At I ran into that particularly with At I ran into that particularly with At Your Best, my last book. We saw it as my Your Best, my last book. We saw it as my Your Best, my last book. We saw it as my team grew and this company became, you team grew and this company became, you team grew and this company became, you know, it's still a hobby. I love it, but know, it's still a hobby. I love it, but know, it's still a hobby. I love it, but like less of a hobby and more of a like less of a hobby and more of a like less of a hobby and more of a thing. And I had a team around me. We thing. And I had a team around me. We thing. And I had a team around me. We see the book as a piece of a much bigger see the book as a piece of a much bigger see the book as a piece of a much bigger ecosystem in which we can serve leaders. ecosystem in which we can serve leaders. ecosystem in which we can serve leaders. The book is kind of the business card. The book is kind of the business card. The book is kind of the business card. And then we can give some free And then we can give some free And then we can give some free resources. We have some paid resources. resources. We have some paid resources. resources. We have some paid resources. um if you will speaking it does so like um if you will speaking it does so like um if you will speaking it does so like I just gave the at your best talk uh I just gave the at your best talk uh I just gave the at your best talk uh Monday again and I will probably be Monday again and I will probably be Monday again and I will probably be giving versions of that talk for the giving versions of that talk for the giving versions of that talk for the next 101 15 years of my life and I hope next 101 15 years of my life and I hope next 101 15 years of my life and I hope to be talking about AI for years and to be talking about AI for years and to be talking about AI for years and years and years to come. Obviously it's years and years to come. Obviously it's years and years to come. Obviously it's going to change. going to change. going to change. >> I don't think the human and existential >> I don't think the human and existential >> I don't think the human and existential issues are going to change much which is issues are going to change much which is issues are going to change much which is what the book is about but what the book is about but what the book is about but >> you're right if you're a publisher all >> you're right if you're a publisher all >> you're right if you're a publisher all you see is the book you don't see the you see is the book you don't see the you see is the book you don't see the ecosystem.

ecosystem. ecosystem. >> Yeah. So, looking back on it now, why do >> Yeah. So, looking back on it now, why do >> Yeah. So, looking back on it now, why do you think Workman said no? What do you you think Workman said no? What do you you think Workman said no? What do you think they were thinking? Or do you think they were thinking? Or do you think they were thinking? Or do you know, are you still a bit mystified? know, are you still a bit mystified? know, are you still a bit mystified? >> Um, [sighs] >> Um, [sighs] >> Um, [sighs] I don't know. I haven't thought about it I don't know. I haven't thought about it I don't know. I haven't thought about it too much. I'm just like, you know, the too much. I'm just like, you know, the too much. I'm just like, you know, the the the most generous way of saying is the the most generous way of saying is the the most generous way of saying is that like they like this probably that like they like this probably that like they like this probably doesn't fit with the direction we're doesn't fit with the direction we're doesn't fit with the direction we're taking the publishing company. Maybe taking the publishing company. Maybe taking the publishing company. Maybe we're moving away from a more business we're moving away from a more business we're moving away from a more business focus to a more general focus because focus to a more general focus because focus to a more general focus because they were never really expert at kind of they were never really expert at kind of they were never really expert at kind of the the more business focus, which is the the more business focus, which is the the more business focus, which is where the coaching habit originally got where the coaching habit originally got where the coaching habit originally got uh pitched. So, um and you know, the uh pitched. So, um and you know, the uh pitched. So, um and you know, the history is full of people who have done history is full of people who have done history is full of people who have done things like turn down the Beatles things like turn down the Beatles things like turn down the Beatles because guitar music is on its way out. because guitar music is on its way out. because guitar music is on its way out. You know, it's a famous quote. So, I I You know, it's a famous quote. So, I I You know, it's a famous quote. So, I I just think if you're a publisher, you just think if you're a publisher, you just think if you're a publisher, you spend a bunch of time taking your best spend a bunch of time taking your best spend a bunch of time taking your best guess on stuff and some you get right guess on stuff and some you get right guess on stuff and some you get right and some you get wrong. Um, like same as and some you get wrong. Um, like same as and some you get wrong. Um, like same as if you're a venture capitalist, you're if you're a venture capitalist, you're if you're a venture capitalist, you're like, "Yeah, I I make 10 bets. One of like, "Yeah, I I make 10 bets. One of like, "Yeah, I I make 10 bets. One of them comes good in a really big way. Two them comes good in a really big way. Two them comes good in a really big way. Two of them break even. Seven of them are of them break even. Seven of them are of them break even. Seven of them are deeply disappointing. I'm just trying to deeply disappointing. I'm just trying to deeply disappointing. I'm just trying to play the odds." So they just they just play the odds." So they just they just play the odds." So they just they just took a a they just played the odds and took a a they just played the odds and took a a they just played the odds and they made a poor decision. But yeah, they made a poor decision. But yeah, they made a poor decision. But yeah, >> so back to the James Clear question. Can >> so back to the James Clear question. Can >> so back to the James Clear question. Can probably figure out the first million.

probably figure out the first million. probably figure out the first million. Not sure about the next 25 million. You Not sure about the next 25 million. You Not sure about the next 25 million. You could probably figure out the first could probably figure out the first could probably figure out the first 50,000. This is the new 10th anniversary 50,000. This is the new 10th anniversary 50,000. This is the new 10th anniversary edition of the coaching habit. edition of the coaching habit. edition of the coaching habit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which is beautiful, by the way. Really, >> Which is beautiful, by the way. Really, >> Which is beautiful, by the way. Really, really beautiful. But you could probably really beautiful. But you could probably really beautiful. But you could probably figure out the first 50,000 because you figure out the first 50,000 because you figure out the first 50,000 because you had sold 80,000 books had sold 80,000 books had sold 80,000 books >> prior to that. You'd done it, >> prior to that. You'd done it, >> prior to that. You'd done it, >> but you can't explain the 1.5 million. >> but you can't explain the 1.5 million. >> but you can't explain the 1.5 million. Do you want to walk us through that a Do you want to walk us through that a Do you want to walk us through that a little bit? I mean, there are so many little bit? I mean, there are so many little bit? I mean, there are so many stories like that where books were stories like that where books were stories like that where books were self-published and then they just boom, self-published and then they just boom, self-published and then they just boom, took off. took off. took off. >> Most books arrive in some sort of tadada >> Most books arrive in some sort of tadada >> Most books arrive in some sort of tadada moment. Um, and uh, then they they they moment. Um, and uh, then they they they moment. Um, and uh, then they they they pretty much quickly disappear down the pretty much quickly disappear down the pretty much quickly disappear down the charts and and vanish without trace. charts and and vanish without trace. charts and and vanish without trace. It's like a It's like a It's like a um, and so in some ways you're just um, and so in some ways you're just um, and so in some ways you're just you're trying to escape gravity. Um, and you're trying to escape gravity. Um, and you're trying to escape gravity. Um, and we all know that metaphor around, you we all know that metaphor around, you we all know that metaphor around, you know, how a Artemus 2 uses up 90% of its know, how a Artemus 2 uses up 90% of its know, how a Artemus 2 uses up 90% of its fuel load in the first mile because it's fuel load in the first mile because it's fuel load in the first mile because it's just trying to get outside gravity, but just trying to get outside gravity, but just trying to get outside gravity, but once it's up in orbit, um, it's a much once it's up in orbit, um, it's a much once it's up in orbit, um, it's a much more efficient thing. And, you know, more efficient thing. And, you know, more efficient thing. And, you know, with a book, your goal is to try and get with a book, your goal is to try and get with a book, your goal is to try and get up into orbit. Um, because it just takes up into orbit. Um, because it just takes up into orbit. Um, because it just takes much less effort to stay there once you much less effort to stay there once you much less effort to stay there once you get there. Because, you know, my get there. Because, you know, my get there. Because, you know, my coaching habit book is typically always coaching habit book is typically always coaching habit book is typically always in the top 1,000 books on Amazon, which in the top 1,000 books on Amazon, which in the top 1,000 books on Amazon, which means that the algorith algorithm means that the algorith algorithm means that the algorith algorithm supports it and encourages it and the supports it and encourages it and the supports it and encourages it and the recommendations.

recommendations. recommendations. >> So many people have read it. They're >> So many people have read it. They're >> So many people have read it. They're like, "What? You haven't read the like, "What? You haven't read the like, "What? You haven't read the coaching habit?" coaching habit?" coaching habit?" >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> And that's a slightly different thing. >> And that's a slightly different thing. >> And that's a slightly different thing. That's the power of word of mouth. And That's the power of word of mouth. And That's the power of word of mouth. And um if I was to give you one piece of um if I was to give you one piece of um if I was to give you one piece of thought around your new book, Kerry, thought around your new book, Kerry, thought around your new book, Kerry, it's how do you build word of mouth into it's how do you build word of mouth into it's how do you build word of mouth into this book? this book? this book? >> Because actually what James Clear did >> Because actually what James Clear did >> Because actually what James Clear did that was brilliant is he looked at that was brilliant is he looked at that was brilliant is he looked at communities and he said which communities and he said which communities and he said which communities would number one perhaps be communities would number one perhaps be communities would number one perhaps be interested in this book, number two talk interested in this book, number two talk interested in this book, number two talk a lot. M a lot. M a lot. M >> and he targeted communities that yap to >> and he targeted communities that yap to >> and he targeted communities that yap to each other each other each other and you know so the example I've heard and you know so the example I've heard and you know so the example I've heard him talk about is like he targeted the him talk about is like he targeted the him talk about is like he targeted the CrossFit community because the CrossFit CrossFit community because the CrossFit CrossFit community because the CrossFit community are really connected and if community are really connected and if community are really connected and if they find something that they love they they find something that they love they they find something that they love they tell everybody about it and they're into tell everybody about it and they're into tell everybody about it and they're into habits. My goodness. habits. My goodness. habits. My goodness. >> Exactly. But they're also into energy >> Exactly. But they're also into energy >> Exactly. But they're also into energy bars. So they're like here's the energy bars. So they're like here's the energy bars. So they're like here's the energy bar that we're all loving at the moment. bar that we're all loving at the moment. bar that we're all loving at the moment. And they're also into kind of like I And they're also into kind of like I And they're also into kind of like I don't know Reebok shoes. So they're like don't know Reebok shoes. So they're like don't know Reebok shoes. So they're like here's the Revox shoes at the moment. So here's the Revox shoes at the moment. So here's the Revox shoes at the moment. So there is a way of of and and what's true there is a way of of and and what's true there is a way of of and and what's true about the coaching habit and what keeps about the coaching habit and what keeps about the coaching habit and what keeps it alive is that it is recommended by it alive is that it is recommended by it alive is that it is recommended by people to people. It's recommended by people to people. It's recommended by people to people. It's recommended by managers to the people that they they managers to the people that they they managers to the people that they they lead and it's recommended by coaches to lead and it's recommended by coaches to lead and it's recommended by coaches to the people that they uh they coach the people that they uh they coach the people that they uh they coach >> and it just generates a lot of um uh uh >> and it just generates a lot of um uh uh >> and it just generates a lot of um uh uh kind of buzz around that. And for for

kind of buzz around that. And for for kind of buzz around that. And for for this 10 year edition, one of the things this 10 year edition, one of the things this 10 year edition, one of the things we're trying to do is to find a new we're trying to do is to find a new we're trying to do is to find a new audience. audience. audience. >> And the audience we're trying to become >> And the audience we're trying to become >> And the audience we're trying to become more interested in this book is parents more interested in this book is parents more interested in this book is parents of young people. So, you know, people 10 of young people. So, you know, people 10 of young people. So, you know, people 10 to 25 or thereabouts to 25 or thereabouts to 25 or thereabouts >> because anecdotally, I know this book is >> because anecdotally, I know this book is >> because anecdotally, I know this book is really helpful cuz I get emails from really helpful cuz I get emails from really helpful cuz I get emails from parents all the time going, you know, I parents all the time going, you know, I parents all the time going, you know, I just had a really great conversation just had a really great conversation just had a really great conversation with my teenager for the first time ever with my teenager for the first time ever with my teenager for the first time ever because actually, you know, I stayed because actually, you know, I stayed because actually, you know, I stayed curious a little bit longer and I rush curious a little bit longer and I rush curious a little bit longer and I rush to action and advice giving a little bit to action and advice giving a little bit to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly, which is a kind of more slowly, which is a kind of more slowly, which is a kind of foundational behavior change. That's foundational behavior change. That's foundational behavior change. That's part of part of the book. And so, I'm part of part of the book. And so, I'm part of part of the book. And so, I'm sitting with my team at the moment and sitting with my team at the moment and sitting with my team at the moment and and makes it sound more grandiose than and makes it sound more grandiose than and makes it sound more grandiose than it is. My niece is interning with me at it is. My niece is interning with me at it is. My niece is interning with me at the moment and so she is working on the the moment and so she is working on the the moment and so she is working on the strategy to go how does this book become strategy to go how does this book become strategy to go how does this book become a word of mouth sensation amongst a word of mouth sensation amongst a word of mouth sensation amongst parents of young people parents of young people parents of young people >> and um that's our goal is not to sell a >> and um that's our goal is not to sell a >> and um that's our goal is not to sell a certain number of copies is not to be a certain number of copies is not to be a certain number of copies is not to be a bestseller but it is to become a word of bestseller but it is to become a word of bestseller but it is to become a word of mouth sensation and so we're working to mouth sensation and so we're working to mouth sensation and so we're working to kind of think about who do we target and kind of think about who do we target and kind of think about who do we target and how do we make this mentionable and how how do we make this mentionable and how how do we make this mentionable and how do we make it past honorable uh in that do we make it past honorable uh in that do we make it past honorable uh in that world and so as you think about your world and so as you think about your world and so as you think about your book. I'd be really curious to know book. I'd be really curious to know book. I'd be really curious to know above and beyond all the usual stuff you above and beyond all the usual stuff you above and beyond all the usual stuff you might do for marketing, how will this be might do for marketing, how will this be might do for marketing, how will this be a book that one pastor calls up another a book that one pastor calls up another a book that one pastor calls up another pastor and goes, "You got to read this pastor and goes, "You got to read this pastor and goes, "You got to read this book. This is actually this is this is a book. This is actually this is this is a book. This is actually this is this is a book you need to be you need to book you need to be you need to book you need to be you need to understand because this will change the

understand because this will change the understand because this will change the way that you lead your church forever." way that you lead your church forever." way that you lead your church forever." So, I don't want to say too much right So, I don't want to say too much right So, I don't want to say too much right now because it's very much in the works now because it's very much in the works now because it's very much in the works and the ink is not dry, but I'm and the ink is not dry, but I'm and the ink is not dry, but I'm convening something very similar to what convening something very similar to what convening something very similar to what Mike, how do you pronounce his last Mike, how do you pronounce his last Mike, how do you pronounce his last name? name? name? >> Melawitz. Mckelawitz. >> Melawitz. Mckelawitz. >> Melawitz. Mckelawitz. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Want to call him John Malkovich. >> Want to call him John Malkovich. >> Want to call him John Malkovich. Mckelawitz. [laughter] Uh Mike Mike Mckelawitz. [laughter] Uh Mike Mike Mckelawitz. [laughter] Uh Mike Mike Mckelowitz. I'm I'm literally in the Mckelowitz. I'm I'm literally in the Mckelowitz. I'm I'm literally in the process of convening something very process of convening something very process of convening something very similar to that. similar to that. similar to that. >> Not to sell books, but to get the issues >> Not to sell books, but to get the issues >> Not to sell books, but to get the issues on the radar on the radar on the radar >> of some key influencers. >> of some key influencers. >> of some key influencers. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we're going to have a uh some time >> And we're going to have a uh some time >> And we're going to have a uh some time together, I'm hoping. And we're just together, I'm hoping. And we're just together, I'm hoping. And we're just going to discuss it. And I'm like, I'm going to discuss it. And I'm like, I'm going to discuss it. And I'm like, I'm here to serve you. I'm here to serve here to serve you. I'm here to serve here to serve you. I'm here to serve your church. I'm here to serve your your church. I'm here to serve your your church. I'm here to serve your organization. organization. organization. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I know if I get them thinking about >> And I know if I get them thinking about >> And I know if I get them thinking about it, talking about it, it, talking about it, it, talking about it, >> that's going to get into all kinds of >> that's going to get into all kinds of >> that's going to get into all kinds of different tribes. Also, in the people different tribes. Also, in the people different tribes. Also, in the people endorsing the book, this morning I put endorsing the book, this morning I put endorsing the book, this morning I put the endorser list together. Uh, and we the endorser list together. Uh, and we the endorser list together. Uh, and we could get, we're so blessed. I could get could get, we're so blessed. I could get could get, we're so blessed. I could get a lot of really, you know, great people a lot of really, you know, great people a lot of really, you know, great people to endorse the book.

to endorse the book. to endorse the book. >> But I'm thinking about the communities >> But I'm thinking about the communities >> But I'm thinking about the communities that they have access to. that they have access to. that they have access to. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> That their name has access to that. I >> That their name has access to that. I >> That their name has access to that. I don't That's not my tribe. don't That's not my tribe. don't That's not my tribe. >> Yeah. But but they are connected with >> Yeah. But but they are connected with >> Yeah. But but they are connected with the tribe and they are connected with the tribe and they are connected with the tribe and they are connected with me. And so I'm thinking about that. It's me. And so I'm thinking about that. It's me. And so I'm thinking about that. It's sort of like with Tim Ferrris in the 4 sort of like with Tim Ferrris in the 4 sort of like with Tim Ferrris in the 4 hour work week hour work week hour work week >> when he launched that he's famously said >> when he launched that he's famously said >> when he launched that he's famously said very much like James Clear. And I think very much like James Clear. And I think very much like James Clear. And I think James might have learned that off Tim James might have learned that off Tim James might have learned that off Tim was, you know, it was Silicon Valley was, you know, it was Silicon Valley was, you know, it was Silicon Valley males who are really into time males who are really into time males who are really into time management and wanted to do a side management and wanted to do a side management and wanted to do a side hustle so they could escape. hustle so they could escape. hustle so they could escape. >> Right. Right. the uh the drudgery of of >> Right. Right. the uh the drudgery of of >> Right. Right. the uh the drudgery of of of the tech scene because he was living of the tech scene because he was living of the tech scene because he was living in Silicon Valley at the time in Silicon Valley at the time in Silicon Valley at the time >> and then they told you know their >> and then they told you know their >> and then they told you know their co-workers and then women picked up on co-workers and then women picked up on co-workers and then women picked up on it and then it spread into other tech it and then it spread into other tech it and then it spread into other tech communities and then it became communities and then it became communities and then it became >> you know multiple million best-selling >> you know multiple million best-selling >> you know multiple million best-selling book for Tim Ferrris and really a book for Tim Ferrris and really a book for Tim Ferrris and really a lifecher for him. lifecher for him. lifecher for him. >> Here's a thought for you. Um >> Here's a thought for you. Um >> Here's a thought for you. Um >> and I' I've done this with the the audio >> and I' I've done this with the the audio >> and I' I've done this with the the audio book for the coaching habit the 10 year book for the coaching habit the 10 year book for the coaching habit the 10 year anniversary. anniversary. anniversary. um um um who are these influences that you're who are these influences that you're who are these influences that you're gathering or who kind of have access to gathering or who kind of have access to gathering or who kind of have access to different tribes that you might like to different tribes that you might like to different tribes that you might like to be banging on their doors and how can be banging on their doors and how can be banging on their doors and how can you make them interstitials in your you make them interstitials in your you make them interstitials in your audio book.

audio book. audio book. >> So you know you read the chapter and >> So you know you read the chapter and >> So you know you read the chapter and then you have a two to three minute then you have a two to three minute then you have a two to three minute interview ask of somebody who is picking interview ask of somebody who is picking interview ask of somebody who is picking up one of the the questions that you're up one of the the questions that you're up one of the the questions that you're raising and having them reflect. Hey, raising and having them reflect. Hey, raising and having them reflect. Hey, for my people in this community, this is for my people in this community, this is for my people in this community, this is how we're thinking about this. This is how we're thinking about this. This is how we're thinking about this. This is the wisdom that I've got at the moment. the wisdom that I've got at the moment. the wisdom that I've got at the moment. So, make them heroes of your audio book. So, make them heroes of your audio book. So, make them heroes of your audio book. Uh because, you know, there might be Uh because, you know, there might be Uh because, you know, there might be because a you'll be able to clip it and because a you'll be able to clip it and because a you'll be able to clip it and use it on social media and and all of use it on social media and and all of use it on social media and and all of that, but there's [clears throat] that, but there's [clears throat] that, but there's [clears throat] something, you know, delightful to be something, you know, delightful to be something, you know, delightful to be able to say, look, it's featuring these able to say, look, it's featuring these able to say, look, it's featuring these different people and these different different people and these different different people and these different communities. Um, and they may be more communities. Um, and they may be more communities. Um, and they may be more inclined to kind of pass the word along. inclined to kind of pass the word along. inclined to kind of pass the word along. >> Now, that's those are really good ideas. >> Now, that's those are really good ideas. >> Now, that's those are really good ideas. I am I am taking notes, Michael. Thank I am I am taking notes, Michael. Thank I am I am taking notes, Michael. Thank you. Thank you. you. Thank you. you. Thank you. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> So, I hope this gives people >> So, I hope this gives people >> So, I hope this gives people encouragement. What I heard there was encouragement. What I heard there was encouragement. What I heard there was rejection. rejection. rejection. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, nos. We've talked about nos. >> You know, nos. We've talked about nos. >> You know, nos. We've talked about nos. We've talked about closed doors about We've talked about closed doors about We've talked about closed doors about making yourself, you know, I'll knock making yourself, you know, I'll knock making yourself, you know, I'll knock three or four times and then then I will three or four times and then then I will three or four times and then then I will go away eventually. I will rewrite this go away eventually. I will rewrite this go away eventually. I will rewrite this seven or eight times and then I will go seven or eight times and then I will go seven or eight times and then I will go away eventually. Um, but you know, the away eventually. Um, but you know, the away eventually. Um, but you know, the other thing I would say too to people other thing I would say too to people other thing I would say too to people who are thinking of self-publishing, who are thinking of self-publishing, who are thinking of self-publishing, often, you know, if I get a a first book often, you know, if I get a a first book often, you know, if I get a a first book or a self-published book, it's like, oh, or a self-published book, it's like, oh, or a self-published book, it's like, oh, this could have used five more drafts.

this could have used five more drafts. this could have used five more drafts. And the thing about the coaching habit And the thing about the coaching habit And the thing about the coaching habit is that process of rejection is that process of rejection is that process of rejection >> ultimately made, I would assume, a much >> ultimately made, I would assume, a much >> ultimately made, I would assume, a much better product. you knew much more of better product. you knew much more of better product. you knew much more of what it wasn't going to be by round what it wasn't going to be by round what it wasn't going to be by round eight than right eight than right eight than right >> you would have if you they just said yes >> you would have if you they just said yes >> you would have if you they just said yes to draft one and away you went you might to draft one and away you went you might to draft one and away you went you might have sold 30,000 copies right have sold 30,000 copies right have sold 30,000 copies right >> like all the water is squeezed out of >> like all the water is squeezed out of >> like all the water is squeezed out of this book it is it is a really the the this book it is it is a really the the this book it is it is a really the the structure of it is crystal clear just structure of it is crystal clear just structure of it is crystal clear just because it just went through so many because it just went through so many because it just went through so many iterations to to get it right so part of iterations to to get it right so part of iterations to to get it right so part of its longevity is the fact that there's its longevity is the fact that there's its longevity is the fact that there's there's really it's it's really lean you there's really it's it's really lean you there's really it's it's really lean you know there's no kind of excess know there's no kind of excess know there's no kind of excess [clears throat] weight on it at all [clears throat] weight on it at all [clears throat] weight on it at all >> and I think when you're used to >> and I think when you're used to >> and I think when you're used to producing messages that are in a 7-day producing messages that are in a 7-day producing messages that are in a 7-day time frame. time frame. time frame. >> You don't have time for that kind of >> You don't have time for that kind of >> You don't have time for that kind of work. And moving from primarily preacher work. And moving from primarily preacher work. And moving from primarily preacher to author, to author, to author, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I couldn't believe how much I enjoyed >> I I couldn't believe how much I enjoyed >> I I couldn't believe how much I enjoyed the editing process this time. the editing process this time. the editing process this time. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> That the third draft was way more fun >> That the third draft was way more fun >> That the third draft was way more fun than the first draft. than the first draft. than the first draft. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. the first draft. I mean, this is a >> Yeah. the first draft. I mean, this is a >> Yeah. the first draft. I mean, this is a great insight for anybody thinking of great insight for anybody thinking of great insight for anybody thinking of writing is writing is often even if writing is writing is often even if writing is writing is often even if you're you're half decent at it like you're you're half decent at it like you're you're half decent at it like Carrie and I are, you know, it's it can Carrie and I are, you know, it's it can Carrie and I are, you know, it's it can be a bit of a slog. Um, your first draft be a bit of a slog. Um, your first draft be a bit of a slog. Um, your first draft is generally a realization about how far is generally a realization about how far is generally a realization about how far away your manuscript is from the thought away your manuscript is from the thought away your manuscript is from the thought what you thought your book would be.

what you thought your book would be. what you thought your book would be. Like, huh, it's a chasm. I mean, I knew Like, huh, it's a chasm. I mean, I knew Like, huh, it's a chasm. I mean, I knew it was going to be, you know, a a what it was going to be, you know, a a what it was going to be, you know, a a what do they call a miserable first draft, do they call a miserable first draft, do they call a miserable first draft, but um I didn't know it was going to be but um I didn't know it was going to be but um I didn't know it was going to be this miserable. [laughter] this miserable. [laughter] this miserable. [laughter] Um but by the time you get to the third Um but by the time you get to the third Um but by the time you get to the third draft or the fifth draft, you start to draft or the fifth draft, you start to draft or the fifth draft, you start to realizing that great writing is great realizing that great writing is great realizing that great writing is great editing. And so if you embrace the editing. And so if you embrace the editing. And so if you embrace the editing and the kind of the compression editing and the kind of the compression editing and the kind of the compression of it and the the the working of it, um of it and the the the working of it, um of it and the the the working of it, um oh, and this is an aside, have you read oh, and this is an aside, have you read oh, and this is an aside, have you read Annie Lamont's latest book? Annie Lamont's latest book? Annie Lamont's latest book? >> Not her latest. No, >> Not her latest. No, >> Not her latest. No, >> she wrote it with her her husband as she >> she wrote it with her her husband as she >> she wrote it with her her husband as she would say her current husband. Um, and would say her current husband. Um, and would say her current husband. Um, and it's called something like how to write it's called something like how to write it's called something like how to write well and at his essence is how do you well and at his essence is how do you well and at his essence is how do you write a good sentence because like the write a good sentence because like the write a good sentence because like the the the unit of elegance and beauty in a the the unit of elegance and beauty in a the the unit of elegance and beauty in a in a book or a sermon is actually a in a book or a sermon is actually a in a book or a sermon is actually a great sentence and it's 36 rules on how great sentence and it's 36 rules on how great sentence and it's 36 rules on how to write a great sentence. It is a to write a great sentence. It is a to write a great sentence. It is a terrific read. It's it's terrific read. It's it's terrific read. It's it's >> putting it on my summer list >> putting it on my summer list >> putting it on my summer list >> out in the last uh a month or so. So, it >> out in the last uh a month or so. So, it >> out in the last uh a month or so. So, it should be easy to find. He's a treasure should be easy to find. He's a treasure should be easy to find. He's a treasure bird by bird.

bird by bird. bird by bird. >> Yeah, exactly. We all love bird by bird. >> Yeah, exactly. We all love bird by bird. >> Yeah, exactly. We all love bird by bird. >> Well, that's good. You know, the other >> Well, that's good. You know, the other >> Well, that's good. You know, the other thing I was going to say, do you have thing I was going to say, do you have thing I was going to say, do you have early readers? Uh I am mean to my early readers? Uh I am mean to my early readers? Uh I am mean to my friends. Like if you know me well, friends. Like if you know me well, friends. Like if you know me well, you're going to get an early copy of my you're going to get an early copy of my you're going to get an early copy of my book and book and book and >> I'm going to burden you with will you >> I'm going to burden you with will you >> I'm going to burden you with will you please read this and give me feedback. I please read this and give me feedback. I please read this and give me feedback. I got so much valuable feedback. got so much valuable feedback. got so much valuable feedback. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In drafts one to before I got to the >> In drafts one to before I got to the >> In drafts one to before I got to the third draft just from friends. There was third draft just from friends. There was third draft just from friends. There was one in particular who said, you know, one in particular who said, you know, one in particular who said, you know, gave me a long long voice text and it gave me a long long voice text and it gave me a long long voice text and it was like, I'm not sure this really was like, I'm not sure this really was like, I'm not sure this really works. It sounds like what you're trying works. It sounds like what you're trying works. It sounds like what you're trying to say is totally restructured the book. to say is totally restructured the book. to say is totally restructured the book. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I have used early read. I mean, >> Yeah. I I have used early read. I mean, >> Yeah. I I have used early read. I mean, I wrote a book called How to Work with I wrote a book called How to Work with I wrote a book called How to Work with Almost Anyone. Almost Anyone. Almost Anyone. >> And I sent the first draft of that out >> And I sent the first draft of that out >> And I sent the first draft of that out to my friend Misha who wrote back going, to my friend Misha who wrote back going, to my friend Misha who wrote back going, "This is ludicrous. I don't even know "This is ludicrous. I don't even know "This is ludicrous. I don't even know what this book is about. It's terrible." what this book is about. It's terrible." what this book is about. It's terrible." And it and literally I I blew up And it and literally I I blew up And it and literally I I blew up whatever I'd written for him and I saved whatever I'd written for him and I saved whatever I'd written for him and I saved one sentence of it and it turned into one sentence of it and it turned into one sentence of it and it turned into the seed for what the what the book the seed for what the what the book the seed for what the what the book would become.

would become. would become. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> but that's a true friend. >> but that's a true friend. >> but that's a true friend. >> Oh yeah, it was fantastic in a in a >> Oh yeah, it was fantastic in a in a >> Oh yeah, it was fantastic in a in a heartbreaking way. It was exactly what I heartbreaking way. It was exactly what I heartbreaking way. It was exactly what I was hoping to think. So yeah, finding was hoping to think. So yeah, finding was hoping to think. So yeah, finding trusted readers. Um but I also am using trusted readers. Um but I also am using trusted readers. Um but I also am using AI as a as a harsh editor. you know, I'm AI as a as a harsh editor. you know, I'm AI as a as a harsh editor. you know, I'm like, read this as a skeptical person like, read this as a skeptical person like, read this as a skeptical person who doesn't enjoy business books and who doesn't enjoy business books and who doesn't enjoy business books and self-help books. Um, and tell me where self-help books. Um, and tell me where self-help books. Um, and tell me where this gets boring. Tell me where you want this gets boring. Tell me where you want this gets boring. Tell me where you want to give up. Tell me where the cliches to give up. Tell me where the cliches to give up. Tell me where the cliches are. Tell me tell me where it's lazy. are. Tell me tell me where it's lazy. are. Tell me tell me where it's lazy. Um, and I, you know, I don't have to Um, and I, you know, I don't have to Um, and I, you know, I don't have to believe everything it's saying. Um but believe everything it's saying. Um but believe everything it's saying. Um but it is really useful to set up um it is really useful to set up um it is really useful to set up um uh AI as my most daunting, most uh AI as my most daunting, most uh AI as my most daunting, most skeptical reader. Um who will like, you skeptical reader. Um who will like, you skeptical reader. Um who will like, you know, I'm looking to stop reading your know, I'm looking to stop reading your know, I'm looking to stop reading your book just as soon as I can and tell it's book just as soon as I can and tell it's book just as soon as I can and tell it's like tell me when you're going to give like tell me when you're going to give like tell me when you're going to give up so I can make it easier for you to up so I can make it easier for you to up so I can make it easier for you to keep going. keep going. keep going. >> By the way, that is a great question and >> By the way, that is a great question and >> By the way, that is a great question and I put that out to my early readers. When I put that out to my early readers. When I put that out to my early readers. When did you get bored?

did you get bored? did you get bored? >> When did you lose interest? >> When did you lose interest? >> When did you lose interest? >> Yeah. And I mean, I rewrote those first >> Yeah. And I mean, I rewrote those first >> Yeah. And I mean, I rewrote those first four or five chapters. four or five chapters. four or five chapters. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Half a dozen times because if you've >> Half a dozen times because if you've >> Half a dozen times because if you've lost them by chapter three, you've lost lost them by chapter three, you've lost lost them by chapter three, you've lost the book and lost the plot. the book and lost the plot. the book and lost the plot. >> So, that was really helpful. And AI >> So, that was really helpful. And AI >> So, that was really helpful. And AI super helpful. I didn't because it was a super helpful. I didn't because it was a super helpful. I didn't because it was a book on AI. I didn't pull AI until the book on AI. I didn't pull AI until the book on AI. I didn't pull AI until the later drafts. I really wanted to later drafts. I really wanted to later drafts. I really wanted to >> go solo on this one >> go solo on this one >> go solo on this one >> at the beginning. So, uh, but it was >> at the beginning. So, uh, but it was >> at the beginning. So, uh, but it was great. I I pretended that uh and I great. I I pretended that uh and I great. I I pretended that uh and I taught it to there's no grade inflation taught it to there's no grade inflation taught it to there's no grade inflation in this school. Um I want you to give me in this school. Um I want you to give me in this school. Um I want you to give me a letter grade like I it was a report a letter grade like I it was a report a letter grade like I it was a report card card card >> and they're like well you're getting an >> and they're like well you're getting an >> and they're like well you're getting an 87 88. 87 88. 87 88. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Like not bad. I'm like I want in the >> Like not bad. I'm like I want in the >> Like not bad. I'm like I want in the '9s. And so we worked phrase by phrase, '9s. And so we worked phrase by phrase, '9s. And so we worked phrase by phrase, bit by bit bit by bit bit by bit >> to get I think my final grade was 93. >> to get I think my final grade was 93. >> to get I think my final grade was 93. Now when I was in university I was real Now when I was in university I was real Now when I was in university I was real happy with a 93. happy with a 93. happy with a 93. >> Wasn't like grade inflation. Uh my >> Wasn't like grade inflation. Uh my >> Wasn't like grade inflation. Uh my school bell curve to a B. So I was like, school bell curve to a B. So I was like, school bell curve to a B. So I was like, okay, like if I get a 93, that's great. okay, like if I get a 93, that's great. okay, like if I get a 93, that's great. I'll save 100 for heaven.

I'll save 100 for heaven. I'll save 100 for heaven. >> But uh I was I was pretty pleased with >> But uh I was I was pretty pleased with >> But uh I was I was pretty pleased with that. So you can you can program AI not that. So you can you can program AI not that. So you can you can program AI not to be psychopantic. to be psychopantic. to be psychopantic. >> Yeah, it's really helpful to understand, >> Yeah, it's really helpful to understand, >> Yeah, it's really helpful to understand, you know, talking about books, you know, talking about books, you know, talking about books, >> as hard as it is to write a book, and it >> as hard as it is to write a book, and it >> as hard as it is to write a book, and it is hard. It's it's it's harder still I is hard. It's it's it's harder still I is hard. It's it's it's harder still I think to get people to buy a book even think to get people to buy a book even think to get people to buy a book even though they're like honestly this is a though they're like honestly this is a though they're like honestly this is a year's worth of work and my best year's worth of work and my best year's worth of work and my best thinking and it's like $19.99. thinking and it's like $19.99. thinking and it's like $19.99. Um it's but even if they buy a book it's Um it's but even if they buy a book it's Um it's but even if they buy a book it's hard to get them to read the book and hard to get them to read the book and hard to get them to read the book and it's really hard to get them to read to it's really hard to get them to read to it's really hard to get them to read to the end of a book. If you can get the end of a book. If you can get the end of a book. If you can get somebody to finish a book, that is a somebody to finish a book, that is a somebody to finish a book, that is a triumph. But to do that, you've really triumph. But to do that, you've really triumph. But to do that, you've really got to keep going. How where will they got to keep going. How where will they got to keep going. How where will they exit? Because actually, they're just exit? Because actually, they're just exit? Because actually, they're just looking for an excuse to get into Tik looking for an excuse to get into Tik looking for an excuse to get into Tik Tok or Netflix or anything but read your Tok or Netflix or anything but read your Tok or Netflix or anything but read your book. So that discipline to say, I'm book. So that discipline to say, I'm book. So that discipline to say, I'm just going to make this irresistible. just going to make this irresistible. just going to make this irresistible. So, I've been thinking a lot about, you So, I've been thinking a lot about, you So, I've been thinking a lot about, you know, when I read popular fiction and know, when I read popular fiction and know, when I read popular fiction and the books that make me go, "Okay, it's the books that make me go, "Okay, it's the books that make me go, "Okay, it's 4:00 a.m. and I really should have gone 4:00 a.m. and I really should have gone 4:00 a.m. and I really should have gone to sleep 6 hours ago, but I'm just going to sleep 6 hours ago, but I'm just going to sleep 6 hours ago, but I'm just going to read one more chapter cuz I to read one more chapter cuz I to read one more chapter cuz I [laughter] can't wait to find out." I'm [laughter] can't wait to find out." I'm [laughter] can't wait to find out." I'm like, "What do they do to make their like, "What do they do to make their like, "What do they do to make their books page turners? And how do I bring books page turners? And how do I bring books page turners? And how do I bring some of that discipline into the books some of that discipline into the books some of that discipline into the books that I write?"

that I write?" that I write?" >> What are you learning on that front? >> What are you learning on that front? >> What are you learning on that front? >> Short chapters, shorter chapters than >> Short chapters, shorter chapters than >> Short chapters, shorter chapters than you think. Um uh and often as you guess you think. Um uh and often as you guess you think. Um uh and often as you guess ending in some some version of a ending in some some version of a ending in some some version of a cliffhanger um so it keeps me going but cliffhanger um so it keeps me going but cliffhanger um so it keeps me going but the the pace of reading is really the the pace of reading is really the the pace of reading is really determined by the length of chapters. determined by the length of chapters. determined by the length of chapters. >> Yeah. Yeah. I started with very short >> Yeah. Yeah. I started with very short >> Yeah. Yeah. I started with very short chapters and then ended up with slightly chapters and then ended up with slightly chapters and then ended up with slightly longer. They're not as long as they used longer. They're not as long as they used longer. They're not as long as they used to be but interesting. to be but interesting. to be but interesting. >> What makes people buy a book? Well, I suspect it is um a a key thing Well, I suspect it is um a a key thing and this comes back to what we're and this comes back to what we're and this comes back to what we're already talking about is like word of already talking about is like word of already talking about is like word of mouth, you know, it's like somebody says mouth, you know, it's like somebody says mouth, you know, it's like somebody says you should buy this book or let me buy you should buy this book or let me buy you should buy this book or let me buy this book for you this book for you this book for you >> like you just did with Anna Lamont. I >> like you just did with Anna Lamont. I >> like you just did with Anna Lamont. I haven't heard about her latest book. haven't heard about her latest book. haven't heard about her latest book. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Which I will now buy. >> Which I will now buy. >> Which I will now buy. >> Here we go. We're living the dream here, >> Here we go. We're living the dream here, >> Here we go. We're living the dream here, Carrie. Um so I I think Carrie. Um so I I think Carrie. Um so I I think >> what we preach >> what we preach >> what we preach >> that is it. Um, >> that is it. Um, >> that is it. Um, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> but I'm not sure I'm sure people Yeah, I >> but I'm not sure I'm sure people Yeah, I >> but I'm not sure I'm sure people Yeah, I I I do think what makes people buy a I I do think what makes people buy a I I do think what makes people buy a book, book, book, >> and this is just marketing, difficult >> and this is just marketing, difficult >> and this is just marketing, difficult marketing, but also marketing 101, is marketing, but also marketing 101, is marketing, but also marketing 101, is going, does this book feel like it going, does this book feel like it going, does this book feel like it answers a problem for me? Particularly answers a problem for me? Particularly answers a problem for me? Particularly if you're writing kind of descriptive if you're writing kind of descriptive if you're writing kind of descriptive non-fiction like you and I do, which is non-fiction like you and I do, which is non-fiction like you and I do, which is like we're here to solve a problem. you like we're here to solve a problem. you like we're here to solve a problem. you know, in in 3 seconds, you need a title know, in in 3 seconds, you need a title know, in in 3 seconds, you need a title that sort of says, "I get what you're up that sort of says, "I get what you're up that sort of says, "I get what you're up against, and this can help you with it."

against, and this can help you with it." against, and this can help you with it." >> So, when you read the coaching habit, >> So, when you read the coaching habit, >> So, when you read the coaching habit, people go, "Oh, yeah, coaching's good, people go, "Oh, yeah, coaching's good, people go, "Oh, yeah, coaching's good, and I need to make that into something and I need to make that into something and I need to make that into something every day." So, there's an instant kind every day." So, there's an instant kind every day." So, there's an instant kind of aha with it. Uh, when you read my of aha with it. Uh, when you read my of aha with it. Uh, when you read my book, How to Work with Almost Anyone, book, How to Work with Almost Anyone, book, How to Work with Almost Anyone, you know what the problem is, and you you know what the problem is, and you you know what the problem is, and you and this book says, "I can help you work and this book says, "I can help you work and this book says, "I can help you work with almost anyone." Um, with almost anyone." Um, with almost anyone." Um, >> so a a really good title can make all >> so a a really good title can make all >> so a a really good title can make all the difference. the difference. the difference. >> That said, you know, Atomic Habits, 25 >> That said, you know, Atomic Habits, 25 >> That said, you know, Atomic Habits, 25 million comments. I still don't really million comments. I still don't really million comments. I still don't really understand what the atomic means in understand what the atomic means in understand what the atomic means in that. So, that. So, that. So, >> I did read that once cuz I didn't >> I did read that once cuz I didn't >> I did read that once cuz I didn't either. It's small and powerful, I either. It's small and powerful, I either. It's small and powerful, I think, is James's think, is James's think, is James's >> image in that. I don't know. I'm more >> image in that. I don't know. I'm more >> image in that. I don't know. I'm more and more I'm into like plain language and more I'm into like plain language and more I'm into like plain language like the coaching habit. like the coaching habit. like the coaching habit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What does that say? the coaching habit >> What does that say? the coaching habit >> What does that say? the coaching habit or I was showing you Ryan Leak's book or I was showing you Ryan Leak's book or I was showing you Ryan Leak's book earlier who's been on how to work with earlier who's been on how to work with earlier who's been on how to work with complicated people. I wonder what that complicated people. I wonder what that complicated people. I wonder what that book's about. book's about. book's about. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> It's about how to work with complicated >> It's about how to work with complicated >> It's about how to work with complicated people. Everybody goes, I have people. Everybody goes, I have people. Everybody goes, I have complicated people complicated people complicated people >> and they're a nightmare to work with. >> and they're a nightmare to work with. >> and they're a nightmare to work with. I'd love to know how to work with those I'd love to know how to work with those I'd love to know how to work with those people, you know, and so that's a that people, you know, and so that's a that people, you know, and so that's a that is a a great is a a great is a a great >> I'm a stickler on on chapter titles, >> I'm a stickler on on chapter titles, >> I'm a stickler on on chapter titles, too. I want to make sure I'm not let's too. I want to make sure I'm not let's too. I want to make sure I'm not let's see what have you got see what have you got see what have you got >> here in the coaching habit. But for my >> here in the coaching habit. But for my >> here in the coaching habit. But for my book, you know, I pick up tables of book, you know, I pick up tables of book, you know, I pick up tables of content and it's like, you know, getting content and it's like, you know, getting content and it's like, you know, getting through. Oh, yeah. You've done it. The through. Oh, yeah. You've done it. The through. Oh, yeah. You've done it. The awe question, the focus question, the awe question, the focus question, the awe question, the focus question, the foundation question, the lazy question, foundation question, the lazy question, foundation question, the lazy question, the strategic question. Here's what I the strategic question. Here's what I the strategic question. Here's what I love about the way you've done that.

love about the way you've done that. love about the way you've done that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What was Michael's lazy question? Oh, >> What was Michael's lazy question? Oh, >> What was Michael's lazy question? Oh, yeah. Right, right, right. It's not like yeah. Right, right, right. It's not like yeah. Right, right, right. It's not like you having like the fog, the the you having like the fog, the the you having like the fog, the the metaphor, you know, the sun breaks metaphor, you know, the sun breaks metaphor, you know, the sun breaks through. It's like I don't know what through. It's like I don't know what through. It's like I don't know what that means. So, when I was looking at my that means. So, when I was looking at my that means. So, when I was looking at my table of contents today, table of contents today, table of contents today, >> I'm like, first of all, you're going to >> I'm like, first of all, you're going to >> I'm like, first of all, you're going to know exactly what you're going to get. know exactly what you're going to get. know exactly what you're going to get. There's going to be like, it's so clear There's going to be like, it's so clear There's going to be like, it's so clear what the chapter is about. what the chapter is about. what the chapter is about. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, the coming disruption. Um, >> You know, the coming disruption. Um, >> You know, the coming disruption. Um, >> you know, best case scenario, worst case >> you know, best case scenario, worst case >> you know, best case scenario, worst case scenario. Literally, what's your chapter scenario. Literally, what's your chapter scenario. Literally, what's your chapter called? Worst case scenario. called? Worst case scenario. called? Worst case scenario. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's the next chapter called? Best >> What's the next chapter called? Best >> What's the next chapter called? Best case scenario. case scenario. case scenario. >> I think I I already know what that you >> I think I I already know what that you >> I think I I already know what that you know what that is about. Yeah. know what that is about. Yeah. know what that is about. Yeah. >> There's no doubt. But that way, when >> There's no doubt. But that way, when >> There's no doubt. But that way, when somebody's skimming or they want to come somebody's skimming or they want to come somebody's skimming or they want to come back to it, back to it, back to it, >> Yeah. They're like, "What was where were >> Yeah. They're like, "What was where were >> Yeah. They're like, "What was where were those worst case scenarios again?" Ah, those worst case scenarios again?" Ah, those worst case scenarios again?" Ah, yeah. It's chapter four. Okay, I got it. yeah. It's chapter four. Okay, I got it. yeah. It's chapter four. Okay, I got it. I got it. You know, so that way it's I got it. You know, so that way it's I got it. You know, so that way it's very descriptive. We all have our little very descriptive. We all have our little very descriptive. We all have our little theories. Okay, this is not where I was theories. Okay, this is not where I was theories. Okay, this is not where I was planning on going because I want to get planning on going because I want to get planning on going because I want to get into the coaching habit, into the coaching habit, into the coaching habit, >> but it's so helpful, Michael, because >> but it's so helpful, Michael, because >> but it's so helpful, Michael, because >> um we have so many aspiring writers and >> um we have so many aspiring writers and >> um we have so many aspiring writers and authors listening and then people who authors listening and then people who authors listening and then people who communicate for a living. So, communicate for a living. So, communicate for a living. So, >> I think all of this is really helpful.

>> I think all of this is really helpful. >> I think all of this is really helpful. But I was surprised when I went back and But I was surprised when I went back and But I was surprised when I went back and revisited the book how much stuck with revisited the book how much stuck with revisited the book how much stuck with me. Stay curious longer. me. Stay curious longer. me. Stay curious longer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And my team will when they listen to >> And my team will when they listen to >> And my team will when they listen to this will start laughing because they're this will start laughing because they're this will start laughing because they're tired of me asking this question. What's tired of me asking this question. What's tired of me asking this question. What's on your mind? on your mind? on your mind? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And what else? Um I mean the coaching >> And what else? Um I mean the coaching >> And what else? Um I mean the coaching habit. You want to just walk us briefly habit. You want to just walk us briefly habit. You want to just walk us briefly through the meta framework and then through the meta framework and then through the meta framework and then we'll get into some particular phrasing we'll get into some particular phrasing we'll get into some particular phrasing because we have a lot of leaders. because we have a lot of leaders. because we have a lot of leaders. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, let's start here actually. >> Well, let's start here actually. >> Well, let's start here actually. >> Let's start with this. When you get to >> Let's start with this. When you get to >> Let's start with this. When you get to the top of an organization, most people the top of an organization, most people the top of an organization, most people who listen to this are in a senior who listen to this are in a senior who listen to this are in a senior leadership role, leadership role, leadership role, I think there's an unspoken assumption I think there's an unspoken assumption I think there's an unspoken assumption that you are the answer giver, the that you are the answer giver, the that you are the answer giver, the advice dispenser, the advice monster as advice dispenser, the advice monster as advice dispenser, the advice monster as you call it. you call it. you call it. >> What first of all, is that true? And >> What first of all, is that true? And >> What first of all, is that true? And then what's wrong with that? then what's wrong with that? then what's wrong with that? >> Yeah. I mean, I think as you become more >> Yeah. I mean, I think as you become more >> Yeah. I mean, I think as you become more senior, you're like, look, I'm senior, you're like, look, I'm senior, you're like, look, I'm collecting wisdom and I'm collecting collecting wisdom and I'm collecting collecting wisdom and I'm collecting experience and I've got scars and it experience and I've got scars and it experience and I've got scars and it would be foolish for me not to to share would be foolish for me not to to share would be foolish for me not to to share those. But the truth is I think your those. But the truth is I think your those. But the truth is I think your advice has never been less useful than advice has never been less useful than advice has never been less useful than it is today because um for a number of it is today because um for a number of it is today because um for a number of reasons. Um the first is most of the reasons. Um the first is most of the reasons. Um the first is most of the time you're not solving the right time you're not solving the right time you're not solving the right problem. You're just solving the first problem. You're just solving the first problem. You're just solving the first problem. Secondly, even if let's just problem. Secondly, even if let's just problem. Secondly, even if let's just say even if you've actually figured out say even if you've actually figured out say even if you've actually figured out what the real challenge is that people what the real challenge is that people what the real challenge is that people are are bringing to you, your advice are are bringing to you, your advice are are bringing to you, your advice just isn't as good as you think it is. I just isn't as good as you think it is. I just isn't as good as you think it is. I mean, you want it to feel good, but it mean, you want it to feel good, but it mean, you want it to feel good, but it just isn't as good as you think it is.

just isn't as good as you think it is. just isn't as good as you think it is. And in a world of AI, which is like just And in a world of AI, which is like just And in a world of AI, which is like just only ever getting better at coming up only ever getting better at coming up only ever getting better at coming up with quite brilliant solutions most of with quite brilliant solutions most of with quite brilliant solutions most of the time, even if your advice was really the time, even if your advice was really the time, even if your advice was really excellent, AI can probably trumpet and excellent, AI can probably trumpet and excellent, AI can probably trumpet and provide footnotes as well as that. But provide footnotes as well as that. But provide footnotes as well as that. But then even more profoundly, let's say then even more profoundly, let's say then even more profoundly, let's say that you're actually try tackling the that you're actually try tackling the that you're actually try tackling the real challenge, not just the first real challenge, not just the first real challenge, not just the first challenge, and you've actually got a challenge, and you've actually got a challenge, and you've actually got a really wonderful solution to it. It's really wonderful solution to it. It's really wonderful solution to it. It's better than anybody else has thought of. better than anybody else has thought of. better than anybody else has thought of. Often your role in the senior part of a Often your role in the senior part of a Often your role in the senior part of a company is to bring out the best in the company is to bring out the best in the company is to bring out the best in the people that you are leading. You are people that you are leading. You are people that you are leading. You are trying to build their capacity, their trying to build their capacity, their trying to build their capacity, their ability to think, their courage, their ability to think, their courage, their ability to think, their courage, their sense of autonomy and self-sufficiency. sense of autonomy and self-sufficiency. sense of autonomy and self-sufficiency. And when you give people the answers, And when you give people the answers, And when you give people the answers, you are training them that actually you are training them that actually you are training them that actually you're a bit better, you're a bit you're a bit better, you're a bit you're a bit better, you're a bit smarter, you're a bit wiser, you're a smarter, you're a bit wiser, you're a smarter, you're a bit wiser, you're a bit faster, you're a bit more nimble, bit faster, you're a bit more nimble, bit faster, you're a bit more nimble, you're a bit more agile than they are, you're a bit more agile than they are, you're a bit more agile than they are, you're better than them. And actually, you're better than them. And actually, you're better than them. And actually, so often them figuring out the challenge so often them figuring out the challenge so often them figuring out the challenge by themselves. They're coming up with by themselves. They're coming up with by themselves. They're coming up with their own ideas and their own solutions their own ideas and their own solutions their own ideas and their own solutions is an act that creates more capacity and is an act that creates more capacity and is an act that creates more capacity and more courage and more autonomy. And this more courage and more autonomy. And this more courage and more autonomy. And this is not to say that there's not a place is not to say that there's not a place is not to say that there's not a place for your advice and your opinions and for your advice and your opinions and for your advice and your opinions and suggestions. Not at all. There suggestions. Not at all. There suggestions. Not at all. There absolutely is. But the fundamental absolutely is. But the fundamental absolutely is. But the fundamental behavior, and we talked about this a behavior, and we talked about this a behavior, and we talked about this a little earlier in the pod, but I'll say little earlier in the pod, but I'll say little earlier in the pod, but I'll say it again. The fundamental behavior it again. The fundamental behavior it again. The fundamental behavior you're doing is can you slow down the you're doing is can you slow down the you're doing is can you slow down the rush to giving advice and can you stay

rush to giving advice and can you stay rush to giving advice and can you stay curious a little bit longer? Because curious a little bit longer? Because curious a little bit longer? Because most of us are advice giving maniacs. It most of us are advice giving maniacs. It most of us are advice giving maniacs. It is our default behavior and it doesn't is our default behavior and it doesn't is our default behavior and it doesn't serve us well and it doesn't serve the serve us well and it doesn't serve the serve us well and it doesn't serve the people we're leading well and that means people we're leading well and that means people we're leading well and that means it doesn't serve the organization well. it doesn't serve the organization well. it doesn't serve the organization well. >> So stay curious longer. Play that out in >> So stay curious longer. Play that out in >> So stay curious longer. Play that out in real time. What does it actually look real time. What does it actually look real time. What does it actually look like? like? like? >> Yeah. I mean I'm not saying stay curious >> Yeah. I mean I'm not saying stay curious >> Yeah. I mean I'm not saying stay curious for a week or a day. I'm like can you for a week or a day. I'm like can you for a week or a day. I'm like can you stretch it to two and a half minutes in stretch it to two and a half minutes in stretch it to two and a half minutes in your conversation because if you can do your conversation because if you can do your conversation because if you can do that we will all celebrate that. So that we will all celebrate that. So that we will all celebrate that. So typically what will come is somebody typically what will come is somebody typically what will come is somebody will start a conversation with you and will start a conversation with you and will start a conversation with you and whatever it's about after about 10 whatever it's about after about 10 whatever it's about after about 10 seconds your advice monster will loom up seconds your advice monster will loom up seconds your advice monster will loom up out of the dark and go all right you're out of the dark and go all right you're out of the dark and go all right you're about to add some value to this about to add some value to this about to add some value to this conversation cuz you've got ideas conversation cuz you've got ideas conversation cuz you've got ideas opinions thoughts suggestions nuggets of opinions thoughts suggestions nuggets of opinions thoughts suggestions nuggets of gold pearls of wisdom you got it you got gold pearls of wisdom you got it you got gold pearls of wisdom you got it you got it all and you're like convinced that it all and you're like convinced that it all and you're like convinced that the way you add value is by having the the way you add value is by having the the way you add value is by having the answer answer answer >> and Actually, if you can just have a few >> and Actually, if you can just have a few >> and Actually, if you can just have a few good questions in your back pocket, if good questions in your back pocket, if good questions in your back pocket, if you can just stay curious a little bit you can just stay curious a little bit you can just stay curious a little bit longer, um it's going to take the longer, um it's going to take the longer, um it's going to take the conversation to a more interesting conversation to a more interesting conversation to a more interesting place. It's going to get it more place. It's going to get it more place. It's going to get it more targeted on what really matters. It's targeted on what really matters. It's targeted on what really matters. It's going to help the person that you're going to help the person that you're going to help the person that you're leading and also it's going to help you leading and also it's going to help you leading and also it's going to help you as well. You're going to work less hard as well. You're going to work less hard as well. You're going to work less hard but have more impact in the work that but have more impact in the work that but have more impact in the work that you do. And so in the coaching habit, you do. And so in the coaching habit, you do. And so in the coaching habit, um, I offer up these seven questions um, I offer up these seven questions um, I offer up these seven questions that I think, you know, if you can take that I think, you know, if you can take that I think, you know, if you can take on board three, four, five, some of on board three, four, five, some of on board three, four, five, some of those, um, that's going to help you in

those, um, that's going to help you in those, um, that's going to help you in the work that you do. the work that you do. the work that you do. >> I love the first one. What's on your >> I love the first one. What's on your >> I love the first one. What's on your mind? mind? mind? >> Yeah, it's an accelerant into uh, let's >> Yeah, it's an accelerant into uh, let's >> Yeah, it's an accelerant into uh, let's talk about the thing that you want to talk about the thing that you want to talk about the thing that you want to talk about. You know, what are you talk about. You know, what are you talk about. You know, what are you anxious about? What are you worried anxious about? What are you worried anxious about? What are you worried about? What are you kind of wound up about? What are you kind of wound up about? What are you kind of wound up about? What are you excited about? Um, about? What are you excited about? Um, about? What are you excited about? Um, >> so do you start a meeting that way or >> so do you start a meeting that way or >> so do you start a meeting that way or how do you how do you do that? Like I do how do you how do you do that? Like I do how do you how do you do that? Like I do a one-on- ones with my direct reports a one-on- ones with my direct reports a one-on- ones with my direct reports every week. every week. every week. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How would I start the meeting? >> How would I start the meeting? >> How would I start the meeting? >> Um, well, you can often do a check-in. >> Um, well, you can often do a check-in. >> Um, well, you can often do a check-in. How you doing? How you doing? How you doing? >> You know, it's nice to remember that >> You know, it's nice to remember that >> You know, it's nice to remember that you're both humans and you can kind of you're both humans and you can kind of you're both humans and you can kind of go go go >> I always do that. Ask how they're doing >> I always do that. Ask how they're doing >> I always do that. Ask how they're doing before you ask them what they're doing. before you ask them what they're doing. before you ask them what they're doing. >> Yeah. It's like what's the temperature? >> Yeah. It's like what's the temperature? >> Yeah. It's like what's the temperature? What's the weather? You know, kind of What's the weather? You know, kind of What's the weather? You know, kind of what's kind of moving around. Um, but I what's kind of moving around. Um, but I what's kind of moving around. Um, but I mean honestly Carrie, most oneto ons are mean honestly Carrie, most oneto ons are mean honestly Carrie, most oneto ons are terrible. Like they're this performative terrible. Like they're this performative terrible. Like they're this performative drain on both parties. You know, the drain on both parties. You know, the drain on both parties. You know, the person who's more junior is like, I'm person who's more junior is like, I'm person who's more junior is like, I'm trying to prove to you that I'm working trying to prove to you that I'm working trying to prove to you that I'm working hard and that I'm a valuable member of hard and that I'm a valuable member of hard and that I'm a valuable member of the team and that I'm you should keep the team and that I'm you should keep the team and that I'm you should keep paying me for my work and the manager is paying me for my work and the manager is paying me for my work and the manager is trying to prove that she's interested or trying to prove that she's interested or trying to prove that she's interested or they're interested in this conversation.

they're interested in this conversation. they're interested in this conversation. Um, and it becomes a bit of a kind of Um, and it becomes a bit of a kind of Um, and it becomes a bit of a kind of weekly performance that everybody is weekly performance that everybody is weekly performance that everybody is finds a bit tedious. But if you're finds a bit tedious. But if you're finds a bit tedious. But if you're thinking to yourself, I want our thinking to yourself, I want our thinking to yourself, I want our onetoone to be of service to you. I'm onetoone to be of service to you. I'm onetoone to be of service to you. I'm here to help you as best I can. And so I here to help you as best I can. And so I here to help you as best I can. And so I need you to take me to the place where need you to take me to the place where need you to take me to the place where you where I can be of best service to you where I can be of best service to you where I can be of best service to you. So that question, so what's on your you. So that question, so what's on your you. So that question, so what's on your mind? Gives them a chance to go, oh mind? Gives them a chance to go, oh mind? Gives them a chance to go, oh great, I've got permission to talk about great, I've got permission to talk about great, I've got permission to talk about this. It's this thing. And then you get this. It's this thing. And then you get this. It's this thing. And then you get to kind of be curious about that. to kind of be curious about that. to kind of be curious about that. >> The second question is, "And what else?" >> The second question is, "And what else?" >> The second question is, "And what else?" Which which is actually Which which is actually Which which is actually deceptively brilliant. deceptively brilliant. deceptively brilliant. >> Oh, it's such a I mean, I often talk >> Oh, it's such a I mean, I often talk >> Oh, it's such a I mean, I often talk about it as the best coaching question about it as the best coaching question about it as the best coaching question in the world. And I love that. And what in the world. And I love that. And what in the world. And I love that. And what else? The acronym of that is AWE. So, else? The acronym of that is AWE. So, else? The acronym of that is AWE. So, you know, it's literally an awesome you know, it's literally an awesome you know, it's literally an awesome question. question. question. >> Um, look, if I've got a script and I >> Um, look, if I've got a script and I >> Um, look, if I've got a script and I even even though I'm very experienced at even even though I'm very experienced at even even though I'm very experienced at this, I'm I'm often just kind of running this, I'm I'm often just kind of running this, I'm I'm often just kind of running through a script. I'll I'll start with through a script. I'll I'll start with through a script. I'll I'll start with what's on your mind and they'll tell me. what's on your mind and they'll tell me. what's on your mind and they'll tell me. I go great. So I'll actually go to I go great. So I'll actually go to I go great. So I'll actually go to question number three which is so what's question number three which is so what's question number three which is so what's the real challenge here for you which is the real challenge here for you which is the real challenge here for you which is the focus question and it acknowledges the focus question and it acknowledges the focus question and it acknowledges that the thing they're telling me about that the thing they're telling me about that the thing they're telling me about that's not the challenge yet. That's that's not the challenge yet. That's that's not the challenge yet. That's just what's on their mind. And my job is just what's on their mind. And my job is just what's on their mind. And my job is to figure out what the real challenge to figure out what the real challenge to figure out what the real challenge is. And in fact, there's a profound is. And in fact, there's a profound is. And in fact, there's a profound truth here, Carrie, which is if you can truth here, Carrie, which is if you can truth here, Carrie, which is if you can shift your identity to being from from shift your identity to being from from shift your identity to being from from the person who has the answers to the the person who has the answers to the the person who has the answers to the person who helps figure out what the person who helps figure out what the person who helps figure out what the challenge is, that is an immense and

challenge is, that is an immense and challenge is, that is an immense and valuable way of re reimagining what your valuable way of re reimagining what your valuable way of re reimagining what your role is. So I'll often go, so what's the role is. So I'll often go, so what's the role is. So I'll often go, so what's the what's the you know what's on your mind? what's the you know what's on your mind? what's the you know what's on your mind? Okay, so what's the challenge here for Okay, so what's the challenge here for Okay, so what's the challenge here for you? What's the real challenge here for you? What's the real challenge here for you? What's the real challenge here for you? and they'll tell me something and you? and they'll tell me something and you? and they'll tell me something and my advice monster will come in and go, my advice monster will come in and go, my advice monster will come in and go, "Hey, that's great. You know some stuff "Hey, that's great. You know some stuff "Hey, that's great. You know some stuff about this. You should tell them about about this. You should tell them about about this. You should tell them about the thing." But, you know, I I've got a the thing." But, you know, I I've got a the thing." But, you know, I I've got a good relationship with my advice monster good relationship with my advice monster good relationship with my advice monster now. So, what I do instead is I go, now. So, what I do instead is I go, now. So, what I do instead is I go, "Great. So, what else? What else is a "Great. So, what else? What else is a "Great. So, what else? What else is a challenge here for you?" Right? What challenge here for you?" Right? What challenge here for you?" Right? What else? What else is a challenge? What else? What else is a challenge? What else? What else is a challenge? What else is hard here for you? What else is else is hard here for you? What else is else is hard here for you? What else is difficult? God, any anything else? Okay. difficult? God, any anything else? Okay. difficult? God, any anything else? Okay. And now they've actually figured out And now they've actually figured out And now they've actually figured out some stuff about this situation that some stuff about this situation that some stuff about this situation that they didn't even know that that they they didn't even know that that they they didn't even know that that they knew. And then you can go, okay, so lot knew. And then you can go, okay, so lot knew. And then you can go, okay, so lot going on there. going on there. going on there. What's the real challenge here for you? What's the real challenge here for you? What's the real challenge here for you? And suddenly we have shifted to a And suddenly we have shifted to a And suddenly we have shifted to a deeper, more focused, more real, more deeper, more focused, more real, more deeper, more focused, more real, more personal question and and an insight personal question and and an insight personal question and and an insight about what's going on.

about what's going on. about what's going on. And And And there's something in the the design of there's something in the the design of there's something in the the design of that question is really helpful. It's that question is really helpful. It's that question is really helpful. It's not just what's the challenge. not just what's the challenge. not just what's the challenge. It's not just what's the real challenge It's not just what's the real challenge It's not just what's the real challenge which is already an improvement. It's which is already an improvement. It's which is already an improvement. It's what's the real challenge here for you. what's the real challenge here for you. what's the real challenge here for you. So it keeps focusing on the person in So it keeps focusing on the person in So it keeps focusing on the person in front of you to say what's hard about front of you to say what's hard about front of you to say what's hard about this for you. It's not don't give me a this for you. It's not don't give me a this for you. It's not don't give me a executive summary about what's hard executive summary about what's hard executive summary about what's hard about this in theory for the about this in theory for the about this in theory for the organization. It's like what's hard organization. It's like what's hard organization. It's like what's hard about this challenge for you? And it about this challenge for you? And it about this challenge for you? And it keeps them in the moment. It allows them keeps them in the moment. It allows them keeps them in the moment. It allows them to grow themselves. It's like, how am I to grow themselves. It's like, how am I to grow themselves. It's like, how am I part of the the the the mess here? Um part of the the the the mess here? Um part of the the the the mess here? Um but it helps them solve the challenge as but it helps them solve the challenge as but it helps them solve the challenge as well. well. well. >> And then walk us through the rest of the >> And then walk us through the rest of the >> And then walk us through the rest of the framework. framework. framework. >> Yeah. So, uh there are seven questions. >> Yeah. So, uh there are seven questions. >> Yeah. So, uh there are seven questions. We've covered the first three. Um uh the We've covered the first three. Um uh the We've covered the first three. Um uh the fourth question, uh the foundation fourth question, uh the foundation fourth question, uh the foundation question um is what do you want? question um is what do you want? question um is what do you want? Now, I ask this question less often than Now, I ask this question less often than Now, I ask this question less often than I do the other ones because it's a I do the other ones because it's a I do the other ones because it's a pretty powerful question. It's actually pretty powerful question. It's actually pretty powerful question. It's actually quite a difficult question to answer a quite a difficult question to answer a quite a difficult question to answer a lot of the time. But if I am circling a lot of the time. But if I am circling a lot of the time. But if I am circling a little bit um or I can't quite make get little bit um or I can't quite make get little bit um or I can't quite make get traction, I might ask what you want.

traction, I might ask what you want. traction, I might ask what you want. Then there's the um strategy question Then there's the um strategy question Then there's the um strategy question number five, which is if you're going to number five, which is if you're going to number five, which is if you're going to say yes to this, what must you say no say yes to this, what must you say no say yes to this, what must you say no to? to? to? Um it's it's I mean in some ways that's Um it's it's I mean in some ways that's Um it's it's I mean in some ways that's what strategy is which is like you know what strategy is which is like you know what strategy is which is like you know declaring your yeses and therefore declaring your yeses and therefore declaring your yeses and therefore declaring the nos that have to be in declaring the nos that have to be in declaring the nos that have to be in place for that yes to have any real place for that yes to have any real place for that yes to have any real meaning to it. The sixth question is the meaning to it. The sixth question is the meaning to it. The sixth question is the lazy question. lazy question. lazy question. And this will sound paradoxical, but the And this will sound paradoxical, but the And this will sound paradoxical, but the lazy question is actually how can I lazy question is actually how can I lazy question is actually how can I help? Or more bluntly, what do you want help? Or more bluntly, what do you want help? Or more bluntly, what do you want from me? And in fact, it's designed to from me? And in fact, it's designed to from me? And in fact, it's designed to slow down your rush to jump in and be slow down your rush to jump in and be slow down your rush to jump in and be helpful. And those of you who aren't helpful. And those of you who aren't helpful. And those of you who aren't watching the video, I'm making inverted watching the video, I'm making inverted watching the video, I'm making inverted air quotes with my fingers. I'm trying air quotes with my fingers. I'm trying air quotes with my fingers. I'm trying to be helpful here by by rescuing, by to be helpful here by by rescuing, by to be helpful here by by rescuing, by solving, by fixing. and it's actually solving, by fixing. and it's actually solving, by fixing. and it's actually disrupting that behavior. And then the disrupting that behavior. And then the disrupting that behavior. And then the seventh and final question is the seventh and final question is the seventh and final question is the learning question. Really powerful. Um learning question. Really powerful. Um learning question. Really powerful. Um it comes with this realization that if it comes with this realization that if it comes with this realization that if you are a leader, you're a teacher. And you are a leader, you're a teacher. And you are a leader, you're a teacher. And if you're a teacher, it's helpful to if you're a teacher, it's helpful to if you're a teacher, it's helpful to know how people learn. And they don't know how people learn. And they don't know how people learn. And they don't learn when you tell them stuff. They learn when you tell them stuff. They learn when you tell them stuff. They learn when they have a chance to reflect learn when they have a chance to reflect learn when they have a chance to reflect on what might have happened. So the on what might have happened. So the on what might have happened. So the learning question is what was most learning question is what was most learning question is what was most useful or most valuable here for you?

useful or most valuable here for you? useful or most valuable here for you? and and we can do it now. Like K and I and and we can do it now. Like K and I and and we can do it now. Like K and I have been talking for ages. It's been have been talking for ages. It's been have been talking for ages. It's been fantastic. But as you think about all fantastic. But as you think about all fantastic. But as you think about all the stuff we've covered so far, the stuff we've covered so far, the stuff we've covered so far, what's been most useful or most valuable what's been most useful or most valuable what's been most useful or most valuable here for you? here for you? here for you? >> And what what I'm doing is I'm making >> And what what I'm doing is I'm making >> And what what I'm doing is I'm making you replay the conversation, figure out you replay the conversation, figure out you replay the conversation, figure out which bits you want to remember. It which bits you want to remember. It which bits you want to remember. It rewires in your brain so you got a rewires in your brain so you got a rewires in your brain so you got a better chance of recalling it. And I'm better chance of recalling it. And I'm better chance of recalling it. And I'm making your takeaway from this making your takeaway from this making your takeaway from this conversation a bit more tangible. conversation a bit more tangible. conversation a bit more tangible. >> No, it's really good. And you know >> No, it's really good. And you know >> No, it's really good. And you know what's interesting and all the different what's interesting and all the different what's interesting and all the different the tens of thousands of listeners who the tens of thousands of listeners who the tens of thousands of listeners who are hearing this, watching this right are hearing this, watching this right are hearing this, watching this right now, the answer is different for all of now, the answer is different for all of now, the answer is different for all of them. them. them. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Someone's like, "Oh, that whole bit >> Someone's like, "Oh, that whole bit >> Someone's like, "Oh, that whole bit about the edits and the draft." Somebody about the edits and the draft." Somebody about the edits and the draft." Somebody else is like, "I'm going to convene a else is like, "I'm going to convene a else is like, "I'm going to convene a little circle of people that I have little circle of people that I have little circle of people that I have access to or I'm going to do a two-hour access to or I'm going to do a two-hour access to or I'm going to do a two-hour cocktail party." and someone else is cocktail party." and someone else is cocktail party." and someone else is like, "Oh, self-publishing isn't what it like, "Oh, self-publishing isn't what it like, "Oh, self-publishing isn't what it used to be. It's actually a really cool, used to be. It's actually a really cool, used to be. It's actually a really cool, viable option." And someone else is viable option." And someone else is viable option." And someone else is like, "I got to start asking more like, "I got to start asking more like, "I got to start asking more questions in our one-on ones." And I questions in our one-on ones." And I questions in our one-on ones." And I love that. I'll open it up with uh love that. I'll open it up with uh love that. I'll open it up with uh what's on your mind, you know, like it's what's on your mind, you know, like it's what's on your mind, you know, like it's so interesting.

so interesting. so interesting. >> So, I've I I think I've embraced because >> So, I've I I think I've embraced because >> So, I've I I think I've embraced because I read this four or five years ago when I read this four or five years ago when I read this four or five years ago when we first talked and we first talked and we first talked and I've embraced more of that. My one-on- I've embraced more of that. My one-on- I've embraced more of that. My one-on- ones are mostly me asking a couple of ones are mostly me asking a couple of ones are mostly me asking a couple of questions and sitting back and questions and sitting back and questions and sitting back and listening. listening. listening. >> Yeah. Brilliant. >> Yeah. Brilliant. >> Yeah. Brilliant. >> And it's gone so well. And what I >> And it's gone so well. And what I >> And it's gone so well. And what I realize, I only have three direct realize, I only have three direct realize, I only have three direct reports. They're all different, reports. They're all different, reports. They're all different, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Uh, one of them is done in about 20 >> Uh, one of them is done in about 20 >> Uh, one of them is done in about 20 minutes. minutes. minutes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Another book's 45 but needs an hour, >> Another book's 45 but needs an hour, >> Another book's 45 but needs an hour, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And then a third, which is great. And >> And then a third, which is great. And >> And then a third, which is great. And then a third sometimes needs 20 minutes then a third sometimes needs 20 minutes then a third sometimes needs 20 minutes and sometimes needs two hours. and sometimes needs two hours. and sometimes needs two hours. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I give them what they need because I >> And I give them what they need because I >> And I give them what they need because I only have three. And I'm realizing that only have three. And I'm realizing that only have three. And I'm realizing that often in me being quiet and taming the often in me being quiet and taming the often in me being quiet and taming the advice monster, they talk themselves advice monster, they talk themselves advice monster, they talk themselves into the solution without me into the solution without me into the solution without me intervening. It's brilliant, isn't it? intervening. It's brilliant, isn't it? intervening. It's brilliant, isn't it? >> They figure it out. >> They figure it out. >> They figure it out. >> Yeah. My favorite coaching experience >> Yeah. My favorite coaching experience >> Yeah. My favorite coaching experience almost ever was when I was coaching a almost ever was when I was coaching a almost ever was when I was coaching a friend of mine. He called me up and he friend of mine. He called me up and he friend of mine. He called me up and he knew this framework. In fact, we we knew this framework. In fact, we we knew this framework. In fact, we we taught it together and he's like, "But I taught it together and he's like, "But I taught it together and he's like, "But I need you to help me think this stuff need you to help me think this stuff need you to help me think this stuff through." And then he said, "So, I mean, through." And then he said, "So, I mean, through." And then he said, "So, I mean, I know you always start with, you know, I know you always start with, you know, I know you always start with, you know, what's on your mind. So here's the what's on your mind. So here's the what's on your mind. So here's the thing, but then you go, what's the real thing, but then you go, what's the real thing, but then you go, what's the real challenge here for me? And so actually, challenge here for me? And so actually, challenge here for me? And so actually, here's the real challenge for me. And he here's the real challenge for me. And he here's the real challenge for me. And he literally just coached himself through literally just coached himself through literally just coached himself through this entire process and at the end came this entire process and at the end came this entire process and at the end came up with this brilliant insight. And he's up with this brilliant insight. And he's up with this brilliant insight. And he's like, "Michael, you're amazing." And I like, "Michael, you're amazing." And I like, "Michael, you're amazing." And I was like, "I literally did nothing this was like, "I literally did nothing this was like, "I literally did nothing this whole this whole conversation." Um, and whole this whole conversation." Um, and whole this whole conversation." Um, and one of the anxieties people have, and one of the anxieties people have, and one of the anxieties people have, and people listening to this may feel this, people listening to this may feel this, people listening to this may feel this, is like it can't be this easy, can it? I

is like it can't be this easy, can it? I is like it can't be this easy, can it? I mean, it can't just be these seven mean, it can't just be these seven mean, it can't just be these seven questions. Won't they won't they feel questions. Won't they won't they feel questions. Won't they won't they feel that I am cheating, you know, if I just that I am cheating, you know, if I just that I am cheating, you know, if I just use the same questions? But it turns out use the same questions? But it turns out use the same questions? But it turns out people really appreciate the structure people really appreciate the structure people really appreciate the structure and actually people aren't even that and actually people aren't even that and actually people aren't even that aware of it. They're just aware that aware of it. They're just aware that aware of it. They're just aware that you're holding space for them to figure you're holding space for them to figure you're holding space for them to figure some stuff out. some stuff out. some stuff out. >> Well, the other thing it does is I've >> Well, the other thing it does is I've >> Well, the other thing it does is I've noticed that it really develops their noticed that it really develops their noticed that it really develops their capacity quickly. If you do this capacity quickly. If you do this capacity quickly. If you do this consistently, consistently, consistently, they're figuring it out. It is You they're figuring it out. It is You they're figuring it out. It is You mentioned the parenting angle. I want to mentioned the parenting angle. I want to mentioned the parenting angle. I want to touch on that before we wrap up, but you touch on that before we wrap up, but you touch on that before we wrap up, but you know, I've raised two boys. You're know, I've raised two boys. You're know, I've raised two boys. You're happily childless, you say, but you happily childless, you say, but you happily childless, you say, but you really want to go into this, really want to go into this, really want to go into this, >> but I've raised two boys and I realized >> but I've raised two boys and I realized >> but I've raised two boys and I realized that once I got to middle school to high that once I got to middle school to high that once I got to middle school to high school, school, school, >> I really had to stop being the answer >> I really had to stop being the answer >> I really had to stop being the answer man man man >> and start going, well, what do you >> and start going, well, what do you >> and start going, well, what do you think? Well, you know, well, what would think? Well, you know, well, what would think? Well, you know, well, what would be the implications of this? And a lot be the implications of this? And a lot be the implications of this? And a lot of my parenting in those, you know, that of my parenting in those, you know, that of my parenting in those, you know, that decade before they left home was me as decade before they left home was me as decade before they left home was me as the chief question asker, not the chief the chief question asker, not the chief the chief question asker, not the chief answer giver.

answer giver. answer giver. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And they still knew. I mean, they knew >> And they still knew. I mean, they knew >> And they still knew. I mean, they knew my opinions. I mean, my opinions. I mean, my opinions. I mean, >> they're like, >> they're like, >> they're like, >> exactly. >> exactly. >> exactly. >> We have no doubt where you I I remember >> We have no doubt where you I I remember >> We have no doubt where you I I remember my oldest, he just said to [laughter] my oldest, he just said to [laughter] my oldest, he just said to [laughter] me, I have no doubt about where you me, I have no doubt about where you me, I have no doubt about where you stand on every single issue in the stand on every single issue in the stand on every single issue in the world, so you don't have to tell me world, so you don't have to tell me world, so you don't have to tell me again. again. again. >> Yeah. Kerry wishy-washy new hoff as he >> Yeah. Kerry wishy-washy new hoff as he >> Yeah. Kerry wishy-washy new hoff as he has never been called ever. [laughter] has never been called ever. [laughter] has never been called ever. [laughter] >> Strong opinions on everything. >> Strong opinions on everything. >> Strong opinions on everything. >> Yeah. But >> Yeah. But >> Yeah. But >> but it really prepares them for >> but it really prepares them for >> but it really prepares them for adulthood. adulthood. adulthood. >> Yeah. And and it and it prepares them >> Yeah. And and it and it prepares them >> Yeah. And and it and it prepares them for adulthood. You're building capacity for adulthood. You're building capacity for adulthood. You're building capacity and agency and confidence. But let's and agency and confidence. But let's and agency and confidence. But let's face it, I mean, adolescence are are face it, I mean, adolescence are are face it, I mean, adolescence are are biologically designed to resist all biologically designed to resist all biologically designed to resist all advice coming at them. I mean, that's advice coming at them. I mean, that's advice coming at them. I mean, that's just the that's just the their stance, just the that's just the their stance, just the that's just the their stance, which is like whatever your advice is, which is like whatever your advice is, which is like whatever your advice is, the answer is not that you're wrong. and the answer is not that you're wrong. and the answer is not that you're wrong. and and [clears throat] parents are and [clears throat] parents are and [clears throat] parents are biologically designed to say, "I'm here biologically designed to say, "I'm here biologically designed to say, "I'm here to protect my kid." And so far, I've to protect my kid." And so far, I've to protect my kid." And so far, I've been trained that giving them answers is been trained that giving them answers is been trained that giving them answers is the way I I help and protect my kid. So, the way I I help and protect my kid. So, the way I I help and protect my kid. So, it's a real relearning, a reshifting to it's a real relearning, a reshifting to it's a real relearning, a reshifting to say, "How do I best support my kid?" And say, "How do I best support my kid?" And say, "How do I best support my kid?" And it requires, as it does, if you're it requires, as it does, if you're it requires, as it does, if you're coaching somebody in a work situation or coaching somebody in a work situation or coaching somebody in a work situation or any situation, any situation, any situation, it requires a giving up of control. It it requires a giving up of control. It it requires a giving up of control. It requires empowerment.

requires empowerment. requires empowerment. And every I mean there aren't many And every I mean there aren't many And every I mean there aren't many people who are explicitly against people who are explicitly against people who are explicitly against empowerment but empowerment typically is empowerment but empowerment typically is empowerment but empowerment typically is giving up some of your power to them giving up some of your power to them giving up some of your power to them >> and that is actually quite quite hard. >> and that is actually quite quite hard. >> and that is actually quite quite hard. That's why people I think at a deeper That's why people I think at a deeper That's why people I think at a deeper level find this being more coachlike a level find this being more coachlike a level find this being more coachlike a challenge which is like oh I'm giving up challenge which is like oh I'm giving up challenge which is like oh I'm giving up some of my control and my authority and some of my control and my authority and some of my control and my authority and my status and my power. Well, the other my status and my power. Well, the other my status and my power. Well, the other thing I think it does, Michael, is, you thing I think it does, Michael, is, you thing I think it does, Michael, is, you know, I hear from leaders every day who know, I hear from leaders every day who know, I hear from leaders every day who feel like an alternative of problems. feel like an alternative of problems. feel like an alternative of problems. One problem is One problem is One problem is >> I just told Michael what to do. He >> I just told Michael what to do. He >> I just told Michael what to do. He didn't go and do it. Now he's in my didn't go and do it. Now he's in my didn't go and do it. Now he's in my office again. Like, am I going to put on office again. Like, am I going to put on office again. Like, am I going to put on a performance improvement plan? Like, a performance improvement plan? Like, a performance improvement plan? Like, what am I going to have to do? I don't what am I going to have to do? I don't what am I going to have to do? I don't know what to do. know what to do. know what to do. >> Another is I just don't have great >> Another is I just don't have great >> Another is I just don't have great leaders. leaders. leaders. >> Like, why is why why are they not able >> Like, why is why why are they not able >> Like, why is why why are they not able to solve the problems? Why do I always to solve the problems? Why do I always to solve the problems? Why do I always have to get involved? Why am I in on have to get involved? Why am I in on have to get involved? Why am I in on every meeting? every meeting? every meeting? >> I think the answer is if if you haven't >> I think the answer is if if you haven't >> I think the answer is if if you haven't tamed your advice monster, it's because tamed your advice monster, it's because tamed your advice monster, it's because they're looking to you as the leader they're looking to you as the leader they're looking to you as the leader because they don't feel empowered or because they don't feel empowered or because they don't feel empowered or equipped to do it equipped to do it equipped to do it >> right. They've kind of trained you to >> right. They've kind of trained you to >> right. They've kind of trained you to say you're you're you're going to take say you're you're you're going to take say you're you're you're going to take control of this. You're going to be control of this. You're going to be control of this. You're going to be responsible for this. You have you responsible for this. You have you responsible for this. You have you you've made me you've you've set it up you've made me you've you've set it up you've made me you've you've set it up so that I'm not going to behave like so that I'm not going to behave like so that I'm not going to behave like that. You know, it's one of those that. You know, it's one of those that. You know, it's one of those powerful coaching questions which is how powerful coaching questions which is how powerful coaching questions which is how have you colluded to create the very have you colluded to create the very have you colluded to create the very system that you are currently system that you are currently system that you are currently complaining about?

complaining about? complaining about? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Oh, ow. >> Oh, ow. >> Oh, ow. >> Yeah, I know. Exactly. >> Yeah, I know. Exactly. >> Yeah, I know. Exactly. >> Say that one more time. I mean, this is >> Say that one more time. I mean, this is >> Say that one more time. I mean, this is this is dangerous. this is dangerous. this is dangerous. >> Yeah. I I mean, I got this from somebody >> Yeah. I I mean, I got this from somebody >> Yeah. I I mean, I got this from somebody else uh whose name has temporarily else uh whose name has temporarily else uh whose name has temporarily escaped me, so I can't take the credit escaped me, so I can't take the credit escaped me, so I can't take the credit for it, but um how have you colluded to for it, but um how have you colluded to for it, but um how have you colluded to create the very system that you are create the very system that you are create the very system that you are currently complaining about? It's powerful, isn't it? It's by Gary It's powerful, isn't it? It's by Gary Colona, uh, the author. Colona, uh, the author. Colona, uh, the author. That's where that comes from. Yeah. That's where that comes from. Yeah. That's where that comes from. Yeah. >> That explains so much of leadership. >> That explains so much of leadership. >> That explains so much of leadership. >> It really does right there. How have you >> It really does right there. How have you >> It really does right there. How have you conspired to create the very system that conspired to create the very system that conspired to create the very system that you are currently complaining about? you are currently complaining about? you are currently complaining about? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and I I I have found like we >> Yeah. And and I I I have found like we >> Yeah. And and I I I have found like we had a I don't want to go into details uh had a I don't want to go into details uh had a I don't want to go into details uh but we had a problem that we needed to but we had a problem that we needed to but we had a problem that we needed to solve last year and I just took one of solve last year and I just took one of solve last year and I just took one of my staff members and it was four or five my staff members and it was four or five my staff members and it was four or five meetings of basically the coaching meetings of basically the coaching meetings of basically the coaching habit. habit. habit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Walking that person through a series of >> Walking that person through a series of >> Walking that person through a series of questions questions questions and that's like what do you need from and that's like what do you need from and that's like what do you need from me? How can I help?

me? How can I help? me? How can I help? >> That's great. >> That's great. >> That's great. >> And it was okay here is the money, >> And it was okay here is the money, >> And it was okay here is the money, here's the resources. Here's the here's the resources. Here's the here's the resources. Here's the permission. What else do you need? permission. What else do you need? permission. What else do you need? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Solved. >> Solved. >> Solved. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is great. >> This is great. >> This is great. >> So, but but that's very >> So, but but that's very >> So, but but that's very counterintuitive. counterintuitive. counterintuitive. >> And but it's it's worth underlining that >> And but it's it's worth underlining that >> And but it's it's worth underlining that coaching and being more coachike doesn't coaching and being more coachike doesn't coaching and being more coachike doesn't mean giving up all the other ways of mean giving up all the other ways of mean giving up all the other ways of leading. It doesn't go I'm I'm giving up leading. It doesn't go I'm I'm giving up leading. It doesn't go I'm I'm giving up all control. They can do anything they all control. They can do anything they all control. They can do anything they want. I'm not allowed to offer advice at want. I'm not allowed to offer advice at want. I'm not allowed to offer advice at all. Sometimes that's an anxiety people all. Sometimes that's an anxiety people all. Sometimes that's an anxiety people have. have. have. For most people, coaching and being more For most people, coaching and being more For most people, coaching and being more coachlike is um an underutilized coachlike is um an underutilized coachlike is um an underutilized leadership um way of behaving. And it's leadership um way of behaving. And it's leadership um way of behaving. And it's often a really powerful way to lead to often a really powerful way to lead to often a really powerful way to lead to begin. And then you may need to set up begin. And then you may need to set up begin. And then you may need to set up parameters or give direction or often parameters or give direction or often parameters or give direction or often advice or whatever it might be. advice or whatever it might be. advice or whatever it might be. >> Yeah. And and I guess your job is really >> Yeah. And and I guess your job is really >> Yeah. And and I guess your job is really what you're doing, I think, if I what you're doing, I think, if I what you're doing, I think, if I understand it right, Michael, is you're understand it right, Michael, is you're understand it right, Michael, is you're empowering them to accomplish the empowering them to accomplish the empowering them to accomplish the mission. mission. mission. >> That's it. >> That's it. >> That's it. >> You're still the guard rails. You got to >> You're still the guard rails. You got to >> You're still the guard rails. You got to make sure. No, we're not on that make sure. No, we're not on that make sure. No, we're not on that mission. We're on this mission.

mission. We're on this mission. mission. We're on this mission. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Does this work with younger team >> Does this work with younger team >> Does this work with younger team leaders? If you've got a 23-year-old who leaders? If you've got a 23-year-old who leaders? If you've got a 23-year-old who just started with you, how does it work just started with you, how does it work just started with you, how does it work with uh with younger team leaders? with uh with younger team leaders? with uh with younger team leaders? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think um my my rule of thumb is how how much and my my rule of thumb is how how much and how far can they figure all of this out how far can they figure all of this out how far can they figure all of this out by themselves? And if I've got a younger by themselves? And if I've got a younger by themselves? And if I've got a younger team leader, so my my niece, my team leader, so my my niece, my team leader, so my my niece, my 23-year-old niece Tilly is interning 23-year-old niece Tilly is interning 23-year-old niece Tilly is interning with me at the moment. She's never had a with me at the moment. She's never had a with me at the moment. She's never had a businessy job before like this. So the businessy job before like this. So the businessy job before like this. So the work I'm getting her to do, work I'm getting her to do, work I'm getting her to do, I need to check in more regularly. I I need to check in more regularly. I I need to check in more regularly. I need to do more teaching. I need to give need to do more teaching. I need to give need to do more teaching. I need to give more guidance. But I am absolutely more guidance. But I am absolutely more guidance. But I am absolutely saying, "You've never written a saying, "You've never written a saying, "You've never written a strategic plan before. Here's a strategic plan before. Here's a strategic plan before. Here's a framework. Here's some teaching. Here's framework. Here's some teaching. Here's framework. Here's some teaching. Here's my expectations. Go away and take a my expectations. Go away and take a my expectations. Go away and take a crack at it." and she'll come back and crack at it." and she'll come back and crack at it." and she'll come back and I'm like, "This feels like it's written I'm like, "This feels like it's written I'm like, "This feels like it's written by a smart, naive 23-year-old." So, I've by a smart, naive 23-year-old." So, I've by a smart, naive 23-year-old." So, I've got more teaching to do and more work to got more teaching to do and more work to got more teaching to do and more work to deliver around this. Um, but I am making deliver around this. Um, but I am making deliver around this. Um, but I am making her She's like, "My brain is hurting."

her She's like, "My brain is hurting." her She's like, "My brain is hurting." I'm like, "Precisely, I'm I am making I'm like, "Precisely, I'm I am making I'm like, "Precisely, I'm I am making you work hard because I'm growing your you work hard because I'm growing your you work hard because I'm growing your capacity here." Um, and I'm setting up capacity here." Um, and I'm setting up capacity here." Um, and I'm setting up guardrails so this doesn't damage our guardrails so this doesn't damage our guardrails so this doesn't damage our relationship and it doesn't damage the relationship and it doesn't damage the relationship and it doesn't damage the business and it actually adds value to business and it actually adds value to business and it actually adds value to me. But I know it's going to take a bit me. But I know it's going to take a bit me. But I know it's going to take a bit longer as we kind of build into this. longer as we kind of build into this. longer as we kind of build into this. >> If you have a staff member that is >> If you have a staff member that is >> If you have a staff member that is constantly asking you questions, you constantly asking you questions, you constantly asking you questions, you know, like they might say, "Well, what know, like they might say, "Well, what know, like they might say, "Well, what do you think? What would you do in this do you think? What would you do in this do you think? What would you do in this situation?" Do you answer that or do you situation?" Do you answer that or do you situation?" Do you answer that or do you deflect back to them? deflect back to them? deflect back to them? >> I um I Well, it it depends a bit on the >> I um I Well, it it depends a bit on the >> I um I Well, it it depends a bit on the context. context. context. >> But um you know, one of the core >> But um you know, one of the core >> But um you know, one of the core principles I have in coaching, but also principles I have in coaching, but also principles I have in coaching, but also generally being a leader. My three generally being a leader. My three generally being a leader. My three principles are be lazy, be curious, be principles are be lazy, be curious, be principles are be lazy, be curious, be often. So being lazy is I am not going often. So being lazy is I am not going often. So being lazy is I am not going to do your work for you. You know, I'm to do your work for you. You know, I'm to do your work for you. You know, I'm going to make sure that the going to make sure that the going to make sure that the accountability, the responsibility, the accountability, the responsibility, the accountability, the responsibility, the work stays where it best sits. So I'm work stays where it best sits. So I'm work stays where it best sits. So I'm not going to let you keep bumping your not going to let you keep bumping your not going to let you keep bumping your work up to me to do. Being curious means work up to me to do. Being curious means work up to me to do. Being curious means taming your advice monster. being often taming your advice monster. being often taming your advice monster. being often just a recognition that actually you can just a recognition that actually you can just a recognition that actually you can do this being curious longer in almost do this being curious longer in almost do this being curious longer in almost every intervention, every interaction every intervention, every interaction every intervention, every interaction whether it's in conversation or by Slack whether it's in conversation or by Slack whether it's in conversation or by Slack or by email. It it it works in all or by email. It it it works in all or by email. It it it works in all places.

places. places. >> Any advice for me as a question asker? >> Any advice for me as a question asker? >> Any advice for me as a question asker? This is our third conversation. I'm just This is our third conversation. I'm just This is our third conversation. I'm just curious. Do you have any advice for me? curious. Do you have any advice for me? curious. Do you have any advice for me? I um I um I um uh uh uh in terms of how you've facilitated and in terms of how you've facilitated and in terms of how you've facilitated and led this um led this um led this um >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So much advice. This has been so So much advice. This has been so So much advice. This has been so disappointing. I'm just like [laughter] disappointing. I'm just like [laughter] disappointing. I'm just like [laughter] I I honestly don't know even where to I I honestly don't know even where to I I honestly don't know even where to start. I mean it's like remedial. Um start. I mean it's like remedial. Um start. I mean it's like remedial. Um uh uh uh I mean honestly this is a great I mean honestly this is a great I mean honestly this is a great conversation. So I' I've loved it. So I conversation. So I' I've loved it. So I conversation. So I' I've loved it. So I don't have any real real advice at all. don't have any real real advice at all. don't have any real real advice at all. uh Carrie, but one possibility is um uh Carrie, but one possibility is um uh Carrie, but one possibility is um uh a little signposting uh a little signposting uh a little signposting helps people understand where they are helps people understand where they are helps people understand where they are and where they're going. Helpful for me, and where they're going. Helpful for me, and where they're going. Helpful for me, but also helpful for the people but also helpful for the people but also helpful for the people listening in. So things like this is listening in. So things like this is listening in. So things like this is great. Let me shift the focus for a bit. great. Let me shift the focus for a bit. great. Let me shift the focus for a bit. This is great. I just want to wrap this This is great. I just want to wrap this This is great. I just want to wrap this up before I move on to the next piece up before I move on to the next piece up before I move on to the next piece that I'm I'm doing here. So, as a that I'm I'm doing here. So, as a that I'm I'm doing here. So, as a facilitator, I'm constantly going, facilitator, I'm constantly going, facilitator, I'm constantly going, "We're here now. We've done this so far.

"We're here now. We've done this so far. "We're here now. We've done this so far. Now, we're going to move into this." And Now, we're going to move into this." And Now, we're going to move into this." And what that does creates a little more what that does creates a little more what that does creates a little more certainty for the audience cuz if certainty for the audience cuz if certainty for the audience cuz if they've got certainty, they're they're they've got certainty, they're they're they've got certainty, they're they're less worried and they're more able to be less worried and they're more able to be less worried and they're more able to be present. If you're um if they're like, present. If you're um if they're like, present. If you're um if they're like, "I've kind of lost track of where we are "I've kind of lost track of where we are "I've kind of lost track of where we are in this conversation." Um uh they're in this conversation." Um uh they're in this conversation." Um uh they're there's some part of their brain going, there's some part of their brain going, there's some part of their brain going, "Oh, we better figure this out." "Oh, we better figure this out." "Oh, we better figure this out." >> No, that's a really good point. I do. I >> No, that's a really good point. I do. I >> No, that's a really good point. I do. I mean, as you know, I've sort of stuck to mean, as you know, I've sort of stuck to mean, as you know, I've sort of stuck to the questions I sent you, which have a the questions I sent you, which have a the questions I sent you, which have a logical flow, logical flow, logical flow, >> but I also love to Yeah. And it probably >> but I also love to Yeah. And it probably >> but I also love to Yeah. And it probably feels like being a passenger in a car feels like being a passenger in a car feels like being a passenger in a car that just did a hard right or a hard that just did a hard right or a hard that just did a hard right or a hard left. It's like, where are we? left. It's like, where are we? left. It's like, where are we? >> Yeah. I mean, I I love it, but to serve >> Yeah. I mean, I I love it, but to serve >> Yeah. I mean, I I love it, but to serve an audience, it can be helpful around an audience, it can be helpful around an audience, it can be helpful around that. that. that. >> Michael, that was really great advice. I >> Michael, that was really great advice. I >> Michael, that was really great advice. I I appreciate you for it. And I love the I appreciate you for it. And I love the I appreciate you for it. And I love the coaching habit. coaching habit. coaching habit. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Say less, ask more, and change the way >> Say less, ask more, and change the way >> Say less, ask more, and change the way you lead forever. This is the 10th you lead forever. This is the 10th you lead forever. This is the 10th anniversary. you you made some additions anniversary. you you made some additions anniversary. you you made some additions and some changes. Obviously, it's and some changes. Obviously, it's and some changes. Obviously, it's available wherever books are sold, but available wherever books are sold, but available wherever books are sold, but is there a particular place you want to is there a particular place you want to is there a particular place you want to direct people to if they want to get it? direct people to if they want to get it? direct people to if they want to get it? >> Um, look, you can find the book wherever >> Um, look, you can find the book wherever >> Um, look, you can find the book wherever you want to get the book. Um, if you you want to get the book. Um, if you you want to get the book. Um, if you want additions to that or you want to want additions to that or you want to want additions to that or you want to kind of buy some bonus stuff from us kind of buy some bonus stuff from us kind of buy some bonus stuff from us directly. If you go to the directly. If you go to the directly. If you go to the coachinghabit.com, coachinghabit.com, coachinghabit.com, um, you know, there's additional videos um, you know, there's additional videos um, you know, there's additional videos and downloads you can get that will and downloads you can get that will and downloads you can get that will supplement your book experience. And you supplement your book experience. And you supplement your book experience. And you can also buy the book directly from us can also buy the book directly from us can also buy the book directly from us if you'd like to do that as well.

if you'd like to do that as well. if you'd like to do that as well. Michael, thank you so much. It's been Michael, thank you so much. It's been Michael, thank you so much. It's been always a delight and it was again this always a delight and it was again this always a delight and it was again this time, time, time, >> Gary. It really was a delight. Thanks >> Gary. It really was a delight. Thanks >> Gary. It really was a delight. Thanks for having me. for having me. for having me. >> Well, we covered a lot of really >> Well, we covered a lot of really >> Well, we covered a lot of really fascinating topics in that conversation. fascinating topics in that conversation. fascinating topics in that conversation. It was and maybe I should put more mile It was and maybe I should put more mile It was and maybe I should put more mile markers in for you. I do that sometimes, markers in for you. I do that sometimes, markers in for you. I do that sometimes, but I really didn't in this sometimes I but I really didn't in this sometimes I but I really didn't in this sometimes I get so engrossed in the conversation, it get so engrossed in the conversation, it get so engrossed in the conversation, it just kind of goes like we're at coffee just kind of goes like we're at coffee just kind of goes like we're at coffee or dinner or that kind of thing. So, or dinner or that kind of thing. So, or dinner or that kind of thing. So, anyway, really good advice from Michael. anyway, really good advice from Michael. anyway, really good advice from Michael. And if you want more, check out the show And if you want more, check out the show And if you want more, check out the show notes. You can find everything at the notes. You can find everything at the notes. You can find everything at the Art of Leadership Academy. Just go to Art of Leadership Academy. Just go to Art of Leadership Academy. 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