The Dark Side of AI: Should Your Kids Be Using It?

Do you allow your children on chat bots Do you allow your children on chat bots on AI or like uh chat or claude? on AI or like uh chat or claude? on AI or like uh chat or claude? >> Oh, no I don't. >> Oh, no I don't. >> Oh, no I don't. >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhof Leadership >> Welcome to the Carrie Newhof Leadership Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us Podcast. I'm so glad you joined us today. Welcome to all of you who are today. Welcome to all of you who are today. Welcome to all of you who are tuning in for the very first time and tuning in for the very first time and tuning in for the very first time and those of you who've been around since those of you who've been around since those of you who've been around since episode 1. Today's a really big day. My episode 1. Today's a really big day. My episode 1. Today's a really big day. My brand new book, AI in the Future Church brand new book, AI in the Future Church brand new book, AI in the Future Church releases. [music] releases. [music] releases. [music] This has been a 2-year labor of love. a This has been a 2-year labor of love. a This has been a 2-year labor of love. a book I didn't intend to write, but I got book I didn't intend to write, but I got book I didn't intend to write, but I got so fascinated by not just the the story so fascinated by not just the the story so fascinated by not just the the story of AI as it's developing, but the impact of AI as it's developing, but the impact of AI as it's developing, but the impact on humanity that I thought think we need on humanity that I thought think we need on humanity that I thought think we need to get this message out to the church. to get this message out to the church. to get this message out to the church. So that's what this is. It's not a tech So that's what this is. It's not a tech So that's what this is. It's not a tech book, it's a [music] ministry book. So book, it's a [music] ministry book. So book, it's a [music] ministry book. So if you're a ministry leader, if you care if you're a ministry leader, if you care if you're a ministry leader, if you care about the church, if you care about the about the church, if you care about the about the church, if you care about the impact of AI, that's what AI in the impact of AI, that's what AI in the impact of AI, that's what AI in the future church is all about. It's future church is all about. It's future church is all about. It's available everywhere. books are sold available everywhere. books are sold available everywhere. books are sold right now. So, make sure you drop by right now. So, make sure you drop by right now. So, make sure you drop by your local bookstore, of course. Go to your local bookstore, of course. Go to your local bookstore, of course. Go to Amazon or Barnes & Noble or your Amazon or Barnes & Noble or your Amazon or Barnes & Noble or your favorite indie online retailer and they favorite indie online retailer and they favorite indie online retailer and they will have it. And what it is about, will have it. And what it is about, will have it. And what it is about, we're exploring the topic of AI in this we're exploring the topic of AI in this we're exploring the topic of AI in this AI series, which we're in the middle of, AI series, which we're in the middle of, AI series, which we're in the middle of, but it's really about what you can do to but it's really about what you can do to but it's really about what you can do to minister to the human need around minister to the human need around minister to the human need around artificial intelligence. We explain what artificial intelligence. We explain what artificial intelligence. We explain what AI is, what it's doing, what the AI is, what it's doing, what the AI is, what it's doing, what the potential disruption is. I think we're potential disruption is. I think we're potential disruption is. I think we're going to go through the biggest going to go through the biggest going to go through the biggest disruption of our lifetime in the next disruption of our lifetime in the next disruption of our lifetime in the next few years and I think you are ready as a few years and I think you are ready as a few years and I think you are ready as a church leader for this moment. So church leader for this moment. So church leader for this moment. So excited to have this out in the wild,

excited to have this out in the wild, excited to have this out in the wild, excited to have this out in the world excited to have this out in the world excited to have this out in the world and we are bringing you a number of and we are bringing you a number of and we are bringing you a number of different conversations in this AI in different conversations in this AI in different conversations in this AI in the future church series. And today I've the future church series. And today I've the future church series. And today I've got James Kelly. James Kelly is the got James Kelly. James Kelly is the got James Kelly. James Kelly is the founder and CEO of Faith Tech, a global founder and CEO of Faith Tech, a global founder and CEO of Faith Tech, a global tech community. They operate in more tech community. They operate in more tech community. They operate in more than 55 cities including Silicon Valley, than 55 cities including Silicon Valley, than 55 cities including Silicon Valley, London, Tokyo, New York, Tel Aviv, and London, Tokyo, New York, Tel Aviv, and London, Tokyo, New York, Tel Aviv, and more. He's been featured in the New York more. He's been featured in the New York more. He's been featured in the New York Times, Wired, The Times of London, Times, Wired, The Times of London, Times, Wired, The Times of London, Christianity Today, and also he equips Christianity Today, and also he equips Christianity Today, and also he equips practitioners across companies like practitioners across companies like practitioners across companies like Google, Meta, and some of the AI Google, Meta, and some of the AI Google, Meta, and some of the AI frontier labs. So, let's get into my frontier labs. So, let's get into my frontier labs. So, let's get into my conversation with James Kelly on this conversation with James Kelly on this conversation with James Kelly on this the launch day for AI and the future the launch day for AI and the future the launch day for AI and the future church. James, glad to be having this church. James, glad to be having this church. James, glad to be having this conversation. Welcome. conversation. Welcome. conversation. Welcome. >> Oh, Carrie, thank you. And yeah, I just >> Oh, Carrie, thank you. And yeah, I just >> Oh, Carrie, thank you. And yeah, I just want to appreciate you uh to start this want to appreciate you uh to start this want to appreciate you uh to start this off. Thank you for your faithfulness. off. Thank you for your faithfulness. off. Thank you for your faithfulness. Um we just mentioned before we recorded Um we just mentioned before we recorded Um we just mentioned before we recorded um I remember your first podcast coming um I remember your first podcast coming um I remember your first podcast coming out with Andy Stanley. And how many out with Andy Stanley. And how many out with Andy Stanley. And how many episodes are you in now? What?

episodes are you in now? What? episodes are you in now? What? >> Oh, we're like this is 830. 830, >> Oh, we're like this is 830. 830, >> Oh, we're like this is 830. 830, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Isn't that nuts? So, so to keep going to >> Isn't that nuts? So, so to keep going to >> Isn't that nuts? So, so to keep going to being faithful to the Lord to bring the being faithful to the Lord to bring the being faithful to the Lord to bring the global church and our leaders, how do we global church and our leaders, how do we global church and our leaders, how do we think biblically? How do we think in think biblically? How do we think in think biblically? How do we think in terms of leadership from the gospel and terms of leadership from the gospel and terms of leadership from the gospel and all the best practices? I appreciate all the best practices? I appreciate all the best practices? I appreciate you. Appreciate your faithfulness to you. Appreciate your faithfulness to you. Appreciate your faithfulness to continuing on for all of us. So, thanks continuing on for all of us. So, thanks continuing on for all of us. So, thanks Gary. Gary. Gary. >> Well, what goes around comes around uh >> Well, what goes around comes around uh >> Well, what goes around comes around uh or maybe I should say, you know, as we or maybe I should say, you know, as we or maybe I should say, you know, as we started, so we continue. I'm working on started, so we continue. I'm working on started, so we continue. I'm working on Andy's interview questions for an Andy's interview questions for an Andy's interview questions for an upcoming episode today before we hit upcoming episode today before we hit upcoming episode today before we hit record. So, record. So, record. So, >> he's been a great friend to to me and to >> he's been a great friend to to me and to >> he's been a great friend to to me and to this podcast. So, James, welcome. Um, this podcast. So, James, welcome. Um, this podcast. So, James, welcome. Um, man, I've been thinking so much about man, I've been thinking so much about man, I've been thinking so much about technology, so much about artificial technology, so much about artificial technology, so much about artificial intelligence, and wanted to have you on intelligence, and wanted to have you on intelligence, and wanted to have you on this AI series. So you are in a this AI series. So you are in a this AI series. So you are in a different position than a lot of people different position than a lot of people different position than a lot of people who listen to this podcast because who listen to this podcast because who listen to this podcast because you're in the room with people who are you're in the room with people who are you're in the room with people who are building and developing AI. You started building and developing AI. You started building and developing AI. You started mostly in the software space and then as mostly in the software space and then as mostly in the software space and then as things have evolved I mean almost every things have evolved I mean almost every things have evolved I mean almost every software company is now an AI company or software company is now an AI company or software company is now an AI company or it's a major [laughter] part of their it's a major [laughter] part of their it's a major [laughter] part of their their platform. Uh what are you learning their platform. Uh what are you learning their platform. Uh what are you learning in these rooms that would surprise a in these rooms that would surprise a in these rooms that would surprise a pastor or church leader? Well, I think pastor or church leader? Well, I think pastor or church leader? Well, I think the first thing is deeply encouraging to the first thing is deeply encouraging to the first thing is deeply encouraging to the church, which is there are faithful the church, which is there are faithful the church, which is there are faithful followers of Jesus working at these

followers of Jesus working at these followers of Jesus working at these companies. And so, like, if you imagine companies. And so, like, if you imagine companies. And so, like, if you imagine Google, Google has Google Christian Google, Google has Google Christian Google, Google has Google Christian Fellowship with thousands of people. I Fellowship with thousands of people. I Fellowship with thousands of people. I think they do, I think it's around 70 think they do, I think it's around 70 think they do, I think it's around 70 small groups every week that are praying small groups every week that are praying small groups every week that are praying together, going through Bible studies together, going through Bible studies together, going through Bible studies all over the world. Amazon, Microsoft, all over the world. Amazon, Microsoft, all over the world. Amazon, Microsoft, Nvidia, a lot of these companies have Nvidia, a lot of these companies have Nvidia, a lot of these companies have followers of Jesus that are asking, "God followers of Jesus that are asking, "God followers of Jesus that are asking, "God has called me to this place to build has called me to this place to build has called me to this place to build here. How do I build differently? But here. How do I build differently? But here. How do I build differently? But how do I then how do I then how do I then find other followers of Jesus and build find other followers of Jesus and build find other followers of Jesus and build um with them?" And so I think the first um with them?" And so I think the first um with them?" And so I think the first thing is you get behind for me it's all thing is you get behind for me it's all thing is you get behind for me it's all almost always a follower of Jesus that almost always a follower of Jesus that almost always a follower of Jesus that I'm I'm trying to disciple on their I'm I'm trying to disciple on their I'm I'm trying to disciple on their journey of faith working in these journey of faith working in these journey of faith working in these companies and they have insider stuff companies and they have insider stuff companies and they have insider stuff that's unbelievable. But I think the that's unbelievable. But I think the that's unbelievable. But I think the first thing is encouragement that there first thing is encouragement that there first thing is encouragement that there are people there and we should be are people there and we should be are people there and we should be praying for them. Um if if if any pastor praying for them. Um if if if any pastor praying for them. Um if if if any pastor or leader is listening, you're like, or leader is listening, you're like, or leader is listening, you're like, "Man, I see tech. It's got this enormous "Man, I see tech. It's got this enormous "Man, I see tech. It's got this enormous disproportionate influence on the world, disproportionate influence on the world, disproportionate influence on the world, what do I do?" Obviously, there's a what do I do?" Obviously, there's a what do I do?" Obviously, there's a local mandate of your people, which we local mandate of your people, which we local mandate of your people, which we can talk about, but there's also this can talk about, but there's also this can talk about, but there's also this global piece that just praying for the global piece that just praying for the global piece that just praying for the leaders in these companies is important.

leaders in these companies is important. leaders in these companies is important. I think the other thing though is I think the other thing though is I think the other thing though is I'm actually quite encouraged I'm actually quite encouraged I'm actually quite encouraged um and a bit concerned when I get into um and a bit concerned when I get into um and a bit concerned when I get into these conversations around the future of these conversations around the future of these conversations around the future of artificial intelligence and super artificial intelligence and super artificial intelligence and super intelligence and these frontier models intelligence and these frontier models intelligence and these frontier models >> is most of the leaders in this space >> is most of the leaders in this space >> is most of the leaders in this space understand that um we're going to hit understand that um we're going to hit understand that um we're going to hit some sort of super intelligence. we're some sort of super intelligence. we're some sort of super intelligence. we're going. So there's this inevitability, going. So there's this inevitability, going. So there's this inevitability, you know, posture. you know, posture. you know, posture. But almost all of them will then say if But almost all of them will then say if But almost all of them will then say if that happens or when it happens, the that happens or when it happens, the that happens or when it happens, the scarce resource is emotions, is uh scarce resource is emotions, is uh scarce resource is emotions, is uh vision, is creativity, is the people vision, is creativity, is the people vision, is creativity, is the people side of the world. And so on one hand side of the world. And so on one hand side of the world. And so on one hand they think we can engineer our way they think we can engineer our way they think we can engineer our way towards some uh sal picture of salvation towards some uh sal picture of salvation towards some uh sal picture of salvation of the future. They still have of the future. They still have of the future. They still have intelligence as the primary of intelligence as the primary of intelligence as the primary of importance. But these leaders understand importance. But these leaders understand importance. But these leaders understand that the unique scarce resource of the that the unique scarce resource of the that the unique scarce resource of the future is what I think the church does future is what I think the church does future is what I think the church does best. Like we we have the greatest best. Like we we have the greatest best. Like we we have the greatest vision. We we deeply love people. We are vision. We we deeply love people. We are vision. We we deeply love people. We are priests to our communities. We should be priests to our communities. We should be priests to our communities. We should be excellent at compassion and empathy and excellent at compassion and empathy and excellent at compassion and empathy and and coming alongside our people. And so, and coming alongside our people. And so, and coming alongside our people. And so, you know, on one hand, the pursuit of you know, on one hand, the pursuit of you know, on one hand, the pursuit of intelligence is relentless right now,

intelligence is relentless right now, intelligence is relentless right now, but there's a clear but there's a clear but there's a clear understanding that the unique value understanding that the unique value understanding that the unique value proposition of the future of the world proposition of the future of the world proposition of the future of the world in an AI age is the things that I think in an AI age is the things that I think in an AI age is the things that I think God calls us to do very uniquely. God calls us to do very uniquely. God calls us to do very uniquely. >> See, that's really fascinating. And on >> See, that's really fascinating. And on >> See, that's really fascinating. And on the one hand, I I agree. That's sort of the one hand, I I agree. That's sort of the one hand, I I agree. That's sort of my thesis, right? The the church's my thesis, right? The the church's my thesis, right? The the church's future direction is human connection. future direction is human connection. future direction is human connection. >> And I really believe that we can bring >> And I really believe that we can bring >> And I really believe that we can bring something to the table that AI needs and something to the table that AI needs and something to the table that AI needs and an AI dominated world needs. an AI dominated world needs. an AI dominated world needs. >> But you just dropped something really >> But you just dropped something really >> But you just dropped something really casually there about super intelligence. casually there about super intelligence. casually there about super intelligence. So we're [laughter] sort So we're [laughter] sort So we're [laughter] sort >> we're sort of in the in in three phases >> we're sort of in the in in three phases >> we're sort of in the in in three phases of of AI and I know you've had a chance of of AI and I know you've had a chance of of AI and I know you've had a chance to read the book uh AI in the future to read the book uh AI in the future to read the book uh AI in the future church, but right now we're sort of in church, but right now we're sort of in church, but right now we're sort of in the LLM era still. You could argue and the LLM era still. You could argue and the LLM era still. You could argue and that's just artificial intelligence that's just artificial intelligence that's just artificial intelligence narrow artificial intelligence which is narrow artificial intelligence which is narrow artificial intelligence which is seeding probably as we speak I don't seeding probably as we speak I don't seeding probably as we speak I don't know what your take is on that to know what your take is on that to know what your take is on that to artificial general intelligence where uh artificial general intelligence where uh artificial general intelligence where uh we will be smarter than any AI will be we will be smarter than any AI will be we will be smarter than any AI will be smarter than any single mathematician smarter than any single mathematician smarter than any single mathematician scientist specialist that the world scientist specialist that the world scientist specialist that the world produces but then we get to super produces but then we get to super produces but then we get to super intelligence which the estimates on the intelligence which the estimates on the intelligence which the estimates on the far far side are 2040 some say it could far far side are 2040 some say it could far far side are 2040 some say it could happen this decade where we get to super happen this decade where we get to super happen this decade where we get to super intelligence. What is super intelligence. What is super intelligence. What is super intelligence? And intelligence? And intelligence? And >> what should we be expecting?

>> what should we be expecting? >> what should we be expecting? Well, I think I don't even think no one Well, I think I don't even think no one Well, I think I don't even think no one no one really knows what it is. I think no one really knows what it is. I think no one really knows what it is. I think honestly that's the thing. And I there's honestly that's the thing. And I there's honestly that's the thing. And I there's these conversations I get with um behind these conversations I get with um behind these conversations I get with um behind the scenes people on right at the edge the scenes people on right at the edge the scenes people on right at the edge of ethics and frontier technology and of ethics and frontier technology and of ethics and frontier technology and they will say to me, Carrie, they're they will say to me, Carrie, they're they will say to me, Carrie, they're like nobody knows where this is going like nobody knows where this is going like nobody knows where this is going now. I think we have control to shape now. I think we have control to shape now. I think we have control to shape all of that. I think there's this sense all of that. I think there's this sense all of that. I think there's this sense right now where we think general right now where we think general right now where we think general intelligence, super intelligence, all intelligence, super intelligence, all intelligence, super intelligence, all these things, it's getting out of these things, it's getting out of these things, it's getting out of control. It's crazy. Now the reality is control. It's crazy. Now the reality is control. It's crazy. Now the reality is is behind the scenes these software is behind the scenes these software is behind the scenes these software developers technologists do have control developers technologists do have control developers technologists do have control to shape what their systems do. You know to shape what their systems do. You know to shape what their systems do. You know you can fine-tune everything and then it you can fine-tune everything and then it you can fine-tune everything and then it gives you different answers. It produces gives you different answers. It produces gives you different answers. It produces different things. And so I think there different things. And so I think there different things. And so I think there is actually an enormous amount of is actually an enormous amount of is actually an enormous amount of control tech has to shape the future. control tech has to shape the future. control tech has to shape the future. But the concern they all have is well I But the concern they all have is well I But the concern they all have is well I don't know when this is going to happen don't know when this is going to happen don't know when this is going to happen and what it's going to look like. And so and what it's going to look like. And so and what it's going to look like. And so I think there is this concern I have u I think there is this concern I have u I think there is this concern I have u that nobody is willing to surrender that nobody is willing to surrender that nobody is willing to surrender control or power. So it's all out full control or power. So it's all out full control or power. So it's all out full tilt. Let's just go after whatever super tilt. Let's just go after whatever super tilt. Let's just go after whatever super intelligence is which is AI having far intelligence is which is AI having far intelligence is which is AI having far more control and power and uh ability to more control and power and uh ability to more control and power and uh ability to do things than we can imagine. Um and so do things than we can imagine. Um and so do things than we can imagine. Um and so I think we knew we knew need to call our

I think we knew we knew need to call our I think we knew we knew need to call our leaders right now to a different pathway leaders right now to a different pathway leaders right now to a different pathway that does bring um some constraints, that does bring um some constraints, that does bring um some constraints, some limits. Um so well, we're recording some limits. Um so well, we're recording some limits. Um so well, we're recording this about a month before it releases. this about a month before it releases. this about a month before it releases. So mid August uh mid to late August So mid August uh mid to late August So mid August uh mid to late August 2026. And Sam Alman, I was just reading 2026. And Sam Alman, I was just reading 2026. And Sam Alman, I was just reading today, announced that he's halting the today, announced that he's halting the today, announced that he's halting the release of some new models because he's release of some new models because he's release of some new models because he's really concerned about what they're really concerned about what they're really concerned about what they're doing and they don't fully understand doing and they don't fully understand doing and they don't fully understand what's happening. So that obviously what's happening. So that obviously what's happening. So that obviously could get updated by the time people could get updated by the time people could get updated by the time people listen to this. But the reality from listen to this. But the reality from listen to this. But the reality from what I've understood and I agree with what I've understood and I agree with what I've understood and I agree with you like trying to define super you like trying to define super you like trying to define super intelligence for the purposes of a book intelligence for the purposes of a book intelligence for the purposes of a book was really difficult because you read 10 was really difficult because you read 10 was really difficult because you read 10 different definitions and you're trying different definitions and you're trying different definitions and you're trying to synthesize them and at the end of the to synthesize them and at the end of the to synthesize them and at the end of the day is we're building something we don't day is we're building something we don't day is we're building something we don't fully understand and something that we fully understand and something that we fully understand and something that we don't fully will not be fully able to don't fully will not be fully able to don't fully will not be fully able to control. In fact, by the time we hit control. In fact, by the time we hit control. In fact, by the time we hit super intelligence or ASI, you know, super intelligence or ASI, you know, super intelligence or ASI, you know, beyond AI and AGI, we'll probably end up beyond AI and AGI, we'll probably end up beyond AI and AGI, we'll probably end up the and tell me if I'm wrong, the way the and tell me if I'm wrong, the way the and tell me if I'm wrong, the way I'm trying to understand this as a I'm trying to understand this as a I'm trying to understand this as a non-coder, a non- techtrained person is non-coder, a non- techtrained person is non-coder, a non- techtrained person is it's almost like we've been in created it's almost like we've been in created it's almost like we've been in created an alien species and it's talking and we an alien species and it's talking and we an alien species and it's talking and we can't understand what it's saying and we can't understand what it's saying and we can't understand what it's saying and we don't fully comprehend what it's doing, don't fully comprehend what it's doing, don't fully comprehend what it's doing, but it's more powerful than us and but it's more powerful than us and but it's more powerful than us and ultimately we are no longer the dominant ultimately we are no longer the dominant ultimately we are no longer the dominant species on the planet. That's sort of species on the planet. That's sort of species on the planet. That's sort of the the lay person takeaway I'm pulling.

the the lay person takeaway I'm pulling. the the lay person takeaway I'm pulling. Can you can you dissect that? Like Can you can you dissect that? Like Can you can you dissect that? Like what's accurate about that? What's what's accurate about that? What's what's accurate about that? What's inaccurate about that? And then what inaccurate about that? And then what inaccurate about that? And then what does that mean? That's a big question, does that mean? That's a big question, does that mean? That's a big question, James. James. James. >> Yeah, I mean I think yeah, you've got >> Yeah, I mean I think yeah, you've got >> Yeah, I mean I think yeah, you've got the doomers and the boomers. The boomers the doomers and the boomers. The boomers the doomers and the boomers. The boomers are this is a huge boom. Let's invest are this is a huge boom. Let's invest are this is a huge boom. Let's invest all the money, which is unbelievable. all the money, which is unbelievable. all the money, which is unbelievable. And the doomers are saying I I think And the doomers are saying I I think And the doomers are saying I I think it's very spiritual too as a salt small it's very spiritual too as a salt small it's very spiritual too as a salt small tangent. You know on one hand you have tangent. You know on one hand you have tangent. You know on one hand you have AI is going to usher in the return of AI is going to usher in the return of AI is going to usher in the return of Christ you know type of feeling and on Christ you know type of feeling and on Christ you know type of feeling and on the other hand you have AI is the Trojan the other hand you have AI is the Trojan the other hand you have AI is the Trojan horse of the church and is going to horse of the church and is going to horse of the church and is going to destroy humanity. Um and so I think destroy humanity. Um and so I think destroy humanity. Um and so I think firstly it's a very deeply spiritual firstly it's a very deeply spiritual firstly it's a very deeply spiritual question that we are wrestling through question that we are wrestling through question that we are wrestling through right now with as a society. I think on right now with as a society. I think on right now with as a society. I think on the doomer side of it, you know, I I'm the doomer side of it, you know, I I'm the doomer side of it, you know, I I'm not convinced that we will hit super not convinced that we will hit super not convinced that we will hit super intelligence. intelligence. intelligence. >> Okay. Yeah, that is an argument that's a >> Okay. Yeah, that is an argument that's a >> Okay. Yeah, that is an argument that's a >> I do think it's a very plausible >> I do think it's a very plausible >> I do think it's a very plausible argument because I think historically, argument because I think historically, argument because I think historically, if you look back, if you even go back to if you look back, if you even go back to if you look back, if you even go back to the atomic bomb and Oenheimer and that the atomic bomb and Oenheimer and that the atomic bomb and Oenheimer and that whole story, everyone that's more fresh whole story, everyone that's more fresh whole story, everyone that's more fresh on everybody's mind, you know, we did on everybody's mind, you know, we did on everybody's mind, you know, we did put in constraints and limits. Um and so put in constraints and limits. Um and so put in constraints and limits. Um and so it is possible that we as a society can it is possible that we as a society can it is possible that we as a society can do this.

do this. do this. Obviously, I think the counterargument Obviously, I think the counterargument Obviously, I think the counterargument to that point is uh well, is it is this to that point is uh well, is it is this to that point is uh well, is it is this going to be even be possible because going to be even be possible because going to be even be possible because anybody can now work with this? You anybody can now work with this? You anybody can now work with this? You know, it's so different with the atomic know, it's so different with the atomic know, it's so different with the atomic bomb. Uh now, it's just so limited in bomb. Uh now, it's just so limited in bomb. Uh now, it's just so limited in terms of resource, but this is one of terms of resource, but this is one of terms of resource, but this is one of those things we can all be building. And those things we can all be building. And those things we can all be building. And so, I do think that's the so, I do think that's the so, I do think that's the counterargument to the intelligence. But counterargument to the intelligence. But counterargument to the intelligence. But I do believe that as a society, as we I do believe that as a society, as we I do believe that as a society, as we start seeing more of its harms, I think start seeing more of its harms, I think start seeing more of its harms, I think if you hit a mass global cyber attack if you hit a mass global cyber attack if you hit a mass global cyber attack that destroys the stock market, for that destroys the stock market, for that destroys the stock market, for example, I think it'll probably take, if example, I think it'll probably take, if example, I think it'll probably take, if I'm looking ahead, it's probably going I'm looking ahead, it's probably going I'm looking ahead, it's probably going to take a moment like that for the world to take a moment like that for the world to take a moment like that for the world to realize maybe we do need some limits. to realize maybe we do need some limits. to realize maybe we do need some limits. And you know, even hearing Altma put in And you know, even hearing Altma put in And you know, even hearing Altma put in some limits and Claude, they've been some limits and Claude, they've been some limits and Claude, they've been putting in um limits as well. Um I do putting in um limits as well. Um I do putting in um limits as well. Um I do think you might not see that um right think you might not see that um right think you might not see that um right that they constrain it and yet AI is that they constrain it and yet AI is that they constrain it and yet AI is already recursive in the sense that it's already recursive in the sense that it's already recursive in the sense that it's coding itself and it's doing things. The coding itself and it's doing things. The coding itself and it's doing things. The difference I understand between AI and difference I understand between AI and difference I understand between AI and say software coding historically is if say software coding historically is if say software coding historically is if you're coding software everything is you're coding software everything is you're coding software everything is known like if if uh you can't log in known like if if uh you can't log in known like if if uh you can't log in it's a known bug and you just have to go it's a known bug and you just have to go it's a known bug and you just have to go back fix the code and then you'll be back fix the code and then you'll be back fix the code and then you'll be able to log in again or this feature able to log in again or this feature able to log in again or this feature isn't working you should be able to isn't working you should be able to isn't working you should be able to debug it like everything is sequential debug it like everything is sequential debug it like everything is sequential and if it's not working it's because oh

and if it's not working it's because oh and if it's not working it's because oh there's an error in the code and the there's an error in the code and the there's an error in the code and the thing about AI That's the way AI was at thing about AI That's the way AI was at thing about AI That's the way AI was at the beginning. You just reprogram, the beginning. You just reprogram, the beginning. You just reprogram, reprogram, reprogram until it does what reprogram, reprogram until it does what reprogram, reprogram until it does what you want it to do. But now it's become you want it to do. But now it's become you want it to do. But now it's become what what AI experts call recursive in what what AI experts call recursive in what what AI experts call recursive in the sense that it is teaching itself. the sense that it is teaching itself. the sense that it is teaching itself. And so the software engineers, I think And so the software engineers, I think And so the software engineers, I think Claude famously has said, "We really Claude famously has said, "We really Claude famously has said, "We really haven't written code all year because haven't written code all year because haven't written code all year because Claude is coding itself." And so we get Claude is coding itself." And so we get Claude is coding itself." And so we get to the point of not being able to to the point of not being able to to the point of not being able to understand what we create almost, you understand what we create almost, you understand what we create almost, you know, Mary Shel's Frankenstein. What know, Mary Shel's Frankenstein. What know, Mary Shel's Frankenstein. What What have I done here? What have I done here? What have I done here? Um, and I I think it's alarming Um, and I I think it's alarming Um, and I I think it's alarming uh a lot of the and I think this is what uh a lot of the and I think this is what uh a lot of the and I think this is what a lot of people don't understand about a lot of people don't understand about a lot of people don't understand about AI. It's more than just, oh, which AI. It's more than just, oh, which AI. It's more than just, oh, which prompt are you using or do you like chat prompt are you using or do you like chat prompt are you using or do you like chat GPT better than claude? So, any other GPT better than claude? So, any other GPT better than claude? So, any other thoughts on why this intelligence is thoughts on why this intelligence is thoughts on why this intelligence is different than anything we've ever seen different than anything we've ever seen different than anything we've ever seen to date? Or maybe it's not? to date? Or maybe it's not? to date? Or maybe it's not? Well, I would say the argument is Well, I would say the argument is Well, I would say the argument is it is a yes and no.

it is a yes and no. it is a yes and no. What I think is that where it's not What I think is that where it's not What I think is that where it's not different than anything else we've seen different than anything else we've seen different than anything else we've seen is that as followers of Jesus, our is that as followers of Jesus, our is that as followers of Jesus, our response response response should be, and I know this is so should be, and I know this is so should be, and I know this is so simplistic because you kind of want like simplistic because you kind of want like simplistic because you kind of want like everything's different, so our answers everything's different, so our answers everything's different, so our answers are different, but our our response are different, but our our response are different, but our our response should be largely the same in that we should be largely the same in that we should be largely the same in that we point people to God, point him to his point people to God, point him to his point people to God, point him to his word, our character, our integrity, word, our character, our integrity, word, our character, our integrity, those things become the the areas to those things become the the areas to those things become the the areas to which we double down and make sure that which we double down and make sure that which we double down and make sure that we're like Jesus in his image focus we're like Jesus in his image focus we're like Jesus in his image focus there. So on one hand you know I don't there. So on one hand you know I don't there. So on one hand you know I don't think the alarmist uh in us should say think the alarmist uh in us should say think the alarmist uh in us should say okay suddenly we now have to do okay suddenly we now have to do okay suddenly we now have to do everything absolutely different. Um I everything absolutely different. Um I everything absolutely different. Um I don't think that's the right pathway. Um don't think that's the right pathway. Um don't think that's the right pathway. Um and I don't think pastors need to all and I don't think pastors need to all and I don't think pastors need to all now suddenly become experts in AI. They now suddenly become experts in AI. They now suddenly become experts in AI. They need to become experts in their people need to become experts in their people need to become experts in their people and how to serve their people and and how to serve their people and and how to serve their people and experts in the word of God and point experts in the word of God and point experts in the word of God and point people to Jesus.

people to Jesus. people to Jesus. On the other side of that, the recursive On the other side of that, the recursive On the other side of that, the recursive element of this um I had the opportunity element of this um I had the opportunity element of this um I had the opportunity Thomas uh Fister, he leads uh research Thomas uh Fister, he leads uh research Thomas uh Fister, he leads uh research AI research at Google Cloud. I AI research at Google Cloud. I AI research at Google Cloud. I interviewed him recently interviewed him recently interviewed him recently and he said the pursuit. So his job and he said the pursuit. So his job and he said the pursuit. So his job Carrie is so fascinating. Carrie is so fascinating. Carrie is so fascinating. >> He is paid by Google and his team that >> He is paid by Google and his team that >> He is paid by Google and his team that he runs to essentially come up with one he runs to essentially come up with one he runs to essentially come up with one breakthrough a year. Like give us a huge breakthrough a year. Like give us a huge breakthrough a year. Like give us a huge breakthrough one to two a year and you breakthrough one to two a year and you breakthrough one to two a year and you guys have done it. This is it. And so guys have done it. This is it. And so guys have done it. This is it. And so the shift his team made recently though the shift his team made recently though the shift his team made recently though in the last 6 months is rather than us in the last 6 months is rather than us in the last 6 months is rather than us coming up with the breakthrough, how are coming up with the breakthrough, how are coming up with the breakthrough, how are we building our AI to come up with the we building our AI to come up with the we building our AI to come up with the breakthroughs itself. breakthroughs itself. breakthroughs itself. And I think that's the difference on And I think that's the difference on And I think that's the difference on this is that we as a society in history this is that we as a society in history this is that we as a society in history have always said we as humans through have always said we as humans through have always said we as humans through adding you know innovation is always one adding you know innovation is always one adding you know innovation is always one plus something else makes the new plus something else makes the new plus something else makes the new innovation. We're always learning and innovation. We're always learning and innovation. We're always learning and building off of something else to come building off of something else to come building off of something else to come up with new innovation.

up with new innovation. up with new innovation. The infrastructure of breakthrough The infrastructure of breakthrough The infrastructure of breakthrough technology isn't us as humans now. It's technology isn't us as humans now. It's technology isn't us as humans now. It's how do we get the systems to do that? how do we get the systems to do that? how do we get the systems to do that? The danger in that and why this feels The danger in that and why this feels The danger in that and why this feels different to me is that when AI starts different to me is that when AI starts different to me is that when AI starts coming up with breakthroughs coming up with breakthroughs coming up with breakthroughs are they going to be actual are they going to be actual are they going to be actual breakthroughs for human society to move breakthroughs for human society to move breakthroughs for human society to move in the right direction or are we going in the right direction or are we going in the right direction or are we going to think this is so beautiful this is so to think this is so beautiful this is so to think this is so beautiful this is so interesting let's let's move forward interesting let's let's move forward interesting let's let's move forward with that breakthrough whatever AI comes with that breakthrough whatever AI comes with that breakthrough whatever AI comes up with and it actually takes us down a up with and it actually takes us down a up with and it actually takes us down a worse trajectory and so I think that's worse trajectory and so I think that's worse trajectory and so I think that's where it is a little different um But where it is a little different um But where it is a little different um But the ways we interact with it, the ways the ways we interact with it, the ways the ways we interact with it, the ways we respond to it. I actually think the we respond to it. I actually think the we respond to it. I actually think the countercultural pathway, which we can countercultural pathway, which we can countercultural pathway, which we can talk more about on this conversation, is talk more about on this conversation, is talk more about on this conversation, is uh the way that the Lord lays out in his uh the way that the Lord lays out in his uh the way that the Lord lays out in his word a countercultural pathway, which I word a countercultural pathway, which I word a countercultural pathway, which I think is going to be very attractive to think is going to be very attractive to think is going to be very attractive to our society in the near future. This our society in the near future. This our society in the near future. This episode is brought to you by Subsplash, episode is brought to you by Subsplash, episode is brought to you by Subsplash, and today I've got Chris Sharp with me and today I've got Chris Sharp with me and today I've got Chris Sharp with me here. Chris, when a first-time visitor here. Chris, when a first-time visitor here. Chris, when a first-time visitor fills out a connect card or someone fills out a connect card or someone fills out a connect card or someone signs up to volunteer, what usually signs up to volunteer, what usually signs up to volunteer, what usually happens next at most churches, happens next at most churches, happens next at most churches, >> right? Honestly, Carrie, a lot of the >> right? Honestly, Carrie, a lot of the >> right? Honestly, Carrie, a lot of the time, not much. Somebody prints a list time, not much. Somebody prints a list time, not much. Somebody prints a list or drops a name in a spreadsheet and it or drops a name in a spreadsheet and it or drops a name in a spreadsheet and it sits there until someone remembers to sits there until someone remembers to sits there until someone remembers to follow up. And we found when nobody owns follow up. And we found when nobody owns follow up. And we found when nobody owns that next step or we fail to clearly that next step or we fail to clearly that next step or we fail to clearly connect the dots to the person who's connect the dots to the person who's connect the dots to the person who's already raising their hand to connect, already raising their hand to connect, already raising their hand to connect, those people just fall through the

those people just fall through the those people just fall through the cracks. So visitors who wanted a next cracks. So visitors who wanted a next cracks. So visitors who wanted a next step never hear back or the timing step never hear back or the timing step never hear back or the timing limits the impact. That's the exact limits the impact. That's the exact limits the impact. That's the exact reason you know we at Subsplash built reason you know we at Subsplash built reason you know we at Subsplash built workflows to close that gap. Workflows workflows to close that gap. Workflows workflows to close that gap. Workflows is a simple drag and drop board built is a simple drag and drop board built is a simple drag and drop board built right into the Subsplash platform. You right into the Subsplash platform. You right into the Subsplash platform. You can start from a template for visitor can start from a template for visitor can start from a template for visitor follow-up, volunteer onboarding, follow-up, volunteer onboarding, follow-up, volunteer onboarding, baptism, room reservations, whatever baptism, room reservations, whatever baptism, room reservations, whatever your church runs regularly. Describe your church runs regularly. Describe your church runs regularly. Describe what you need and let AI build it for what you need and let AI build it for what you need and let AI build it for you. Or you can just build it uh build you. Or you can just build it uh build you. Or you can just build it uh build your own from scratch. So every card your own from scratch. So every card your own from scratch. So every card gets a checklist, a due date, and a gets a checklist, a due date, and a gets a checklist, a due date, and a person responsible. So your team always person responsible. So your team always person responsible. So your team always knows who's doing what, and nothing sits knows who's doing what, and nothing sits knows who's doing what, and nothing sits unassigned. The timing and follow-up unassigned. The timing and follow-up unassigned. The timing and follow-up help deliver a delightful experience help deliver a delightful experience help deliver a delightful experience that leads to deepened connections. And that leads to deepened connections. And that leads to deepened connections. And ultimately, you know, for us, like what ultimately, you know, for us, like what ultimately, you know, for us, like what we care about most helps people grow on we care about most helps people grow on we care about most helps people grow on their disciplehip journey. their disciplehip journey. their disciplehip journey. >> Chris, thanks so much. So for our >> Chris, thanks so much. So for our >> Chris, thanks so much. So for our listeners, we got a special deal, a listeners, we got a special deal, a listeners, we got a special deal, a discount for you. You can head to discount for you. You can head to discount for you. You can head to subsplash.com/carry. subsplash.com/carry. subsplash.com/carry. You'll get $500 off when you sign up You'll get $500 off when you sign up You'll get $500 off when you sign up today. That's subsplash today. That's subsplash today. That's subsplash suubsplash.comcy.

It's time to simplify so you can It's time to simplify so you can multiply your ministry impact. This multiply your ministry impact. This multiply your ministry impact. This episode is brought to you by Convoy of episode is brought to you by Convoy of episode is brought to you by Convoy of Hope. With each breaking news stories of Hope. With each breaking news stories of Hope. With each breaking news stories of disaster around the world, I know that disaster around the world, I know that disaster around the world, I know that help is on the way because of the help is on the way because of the help is on the way because of the tireless efforts of my friends at Convoy tireless efforts of my friends at Convoy tireless efforts of my friends at Convoy of Hope. And their incredible work isn't of Hope. And their incredible work isn't of Hope. And their incredible work isn't limited to just providing relief in the limited to just providing relief in the limited to just providing relief in the wake of those storm paths. Last year wake of those storm paths. Last year wake of those storm paths. Last year alone, they trained and equipped close alone, they trained and equipped close alone, they trained and equipped close to 50,000 farmers and empowered nearly to 50,000 farmers and empowered nearly to 50,000 farmers and empowered nearly 80,000 women. I've seen this up close on 80,000 women. I've seen this up close on 80,000 women. I've seen this up close on the field. It's incredible. 677,000 the field. It's incredible. 677,000 the field. It's incredible. 677,000 children woke up this morning knowing children woke up this morning knowing children woke up this morning knowing they would receive a nutritious meal. they would receive a nutritious meal. they would receive a nutritious meal. All because of our partnership with All because of our partnership with All because of our partnership with Convoy of Hope. Tony and I personally Convoy of Hope. Tony and I personally Convoy of Hope. Tony and I personally traveled to the field. We saw firsthand traveled to the field. We saw firsthand traveled to the field. We saw firsthand the amazing impact of our personal the amazing impact of our personal the amazing impact of our personal convoy partnership and how they tangibly convoy partnership and how they tangibly convoy partnership and how they tangibly share God's love. So, I think their work share God's love. So, I think their work share God's love. So, I think their work is impressive. I know the need is great. is impressive. I know the need is great. is impressive. I know the need is great. Sometimes the the news is just so Sometimes the the news is just so Sometimes the the news is just so overwhelming. And your gift to Convoy of overwhelming. And your gift to Convoy of overwhelming. And your gift to Convoy of Hope will help make the difference. Join Hope will help make the difference. Join Hope will help make the difference. Join me and Tony, my wife, in supporting this me and Tony, my wife, in supporting this me and Tony, my wife, in supporting this great ministry. The website is great ministry. The website is great ministry. The website is convoyof.org/carry.

convoyof.org/carry. convoyof.org/carry. Well, that's the opportunity I saw as I Well, that's the opportunity I saw as I Well, that's the opportunity I saw as I got deeper and deeper into the topic. got deeper and deeper into the topic. got deeper and deeper into the topic. It's like, oh, wait a minute. We're It's like, oh, wait a minute. We're It's like, oh, wait a minute. We're actually prepared for this as actually prepared for this as actually prepared for this as Christians. Like, God is still Christians. Like, God is still Christians. Like, God is still sovereign. Nothing surprises him. He sovereign. Nothing surprises him. He sovereign. Nothing surprises him. He knew about AI before you were born, knew about AI before you were born, knew about AI before you were born, before the creation was founded, you before the creation was founded, you before the creation was founded, you know, started. Like, none of this none know, started. Like, none of this none know, started. Like, none of this none of this thwarts God's sovereignty. Even of this thwarts God's sovereignty. Even of this thwarts God's sovereignty. Even if a new species, so to speak, is is if a new species, so to speak, is is if a new species, so to speak, is is created. Nothing's beyond the the realm created. Nothing's beyond the the realm created. Nothing's beyond the the realm of God. And the church's future of God. And the church's future of God. And the church's future direction is human connection. Like this direction is human connection. Like this direction is human connection. Like this is something we were trained for to is something we were trained for to is something we were trained for to connect people in a relationship with connect people in a relationship with connect people in a relationship with God, connect people with each other to God, connect people with each other to God, connect people with each other to be more human. Like be more human. Like be more human. Like >> I can't wait to get into that part of >> I can't wait to get into that part of >> I can't wait to get into that part of it. it. it. >> But I think what what I'm really >> But I think what what I'm really >> But I think what what I'm really wrestling with, James, and you can help wrestling with, James, and you can help wrestling with, James, and you can help us with this, is us with this, is us with this, is >> we're moving into a world that could >> we're moving into a world that could >> we're moving into a world that could potentially be fundamentally different potentially be fundamentally different potentially be fundamentally different than the one we grew up in. And a lot of than the one we grew up in. And a lot of than the one we grew up in. And a lot of our categories break. Um my grandfather our categories break. Um my grandfather our categories break. Um my grandfather was born in one of my grandfathers was was born in one of my grandfathers was was born in one of my grandfathers was born in 1898 and died in 1977. And my born in 1898 and died in 1977. And my born in 1898 and died in 1977. And my dad reflecting on his life said, "You dad reflecting on his life said, "You dad reflecting on his life said, "You look at my dad, he grew up in the era of look at my dad, he grew up in the era of look at my dad, he grew up in the era of horse and buggy and died with supersonic horse and buggy and died with supersonic horse and buggy and died with supersonic jet travel and after we put a a man on jet travel and after we put a a man on jet travel and after we put a a man on the moon." Like you think about all that the moon." Like you think about all that the moon." Like you think about all that change in 80 years. That was that was a change in 80 years. That was that was a change in 80 years. That was that was a lot. And so I guess you know we're we're lot. And so I guess you know we're we're lot. And so I guess you know we're we're seeing even greater change than that seeing even greater change than that seeing even greater change than that potentially in the next 5 to 10 years potentially in the next 5 to 10 years potentially in the next 5 to 10 years when you think about life potentially

when you think about life potentially when you think about life potentially and again nobody really knows where this and again nobody really knows where this and again nobody really knows where this is going. Nobody knows exactly what is going. Nobody knows exactly what is going. Nobody knows exactly what we're creating. Will we hit ASI or not? we're creating. Will we hit ASI or not? we're creating. Will we hit ASI or not? I don't know. You don't know. God knows. I don't know. You don't know. God knows. I don't know. You don't know. God knows. That's actually comforting. But what That's actually comforting. But what That's actually comforting. But what potentially could be the implications on potentially could be the implications on potentially could be the implications on the world to like everyday life, the the world to like everyday life, the the world to like everyday life, the economy, wealth creation, jobs, mental economy, wealth creation, jobs, mental economy, wealth creation, jobs, mental health, like when you look into the health, like when you look into the health, like when you look into the future, where do you see some of the future, where do you see some of the future, where do you see some of the tentacles of AI going in terms of tentacles of AI going in terms of tentacles of AI going in terms of changing or disrupting everyday life? changing or disrupting everyday life? changing or disrupting everyday life? >> Yep. Yeah. I think um you know, this is >> Yep. Yeah. I think um you know, this is >> Yep. Yeah. I think um you know, this is where even your language, worst case, where even your language, worst case, where even your language, worst case, best case scenario kind of concepts come best case scenario kind of concepts come best case scenario kind of concepts come in. Um, I do think that my concern right in. Um, I do think that my concern right in. Um, I do think that my concern right now on the trajectory we're currently on now on the trajectory we're currently on now on the trajectory we're currently on is the marginalized, is the marginalized, is the marginalized, those on the sidelines those on the sidelines those on the sidelines um getting pushed even further. you um getting pushed even further. you um getting pushed even further. you know, the the wealth gap growing. Um, know, the the wealth gap growing. Um, know, the the wealth gap growing. Um, you know, the right now so much of this you know, the right now so much of this you know, the right now so much of this conversation is western. Um, and then conversation is western. Um, and then conversation is western. Um, and then suddenly you have the rest of the world suddenly you have the rest of the world suddenly you have the rest of the world kind of responding of what implications kind of responding of what implications kind of responding of what implications are this going to going to have on me are this going to going to have on me are this going to going to have on me and if that leads to like economic and if that leads to like economic and if that leads to like economic disparity, disparity, disparity, you know, again, opportunity for the you know, again, opportunity for the you know, again, opportunity for the church to be the church in such a church to be the church in such a church to be the church in such a powerful way. So I think that's one powerful way. So I think that's one powerful way. So I think that's one avenue that is avenue that is avenue that is >> so the wealth gap widening some >> so the wealth gap widening some >> so the wealth gap widening some countries some classes really profiting countries some classes really profiting countries some classes really profiting >> while other people get pushed to the

>> while other people get pushed to the >> while other people get pushed to the side like the marginally employed or side like the marginally employed or side like the marginally employed or >> do you see it imp impacting white collar >> do you see it imp impacting white collar >> do you see it imp impacting white collar or are what's your view on that? I do. I or are what's your view on that? I do. I or are what's your view on that? I do. I already have that. I mean, the number of already have that. I mean, the number of already have that. I mean, the number of software developers that are in our software developers that are in our software developers that are in our community that are losing their jobs community that are losing their jobs community that are losing their jobs right now is actually growing. Uh, it right now is actually growing. Uh, it right now is actually growing. Uh, it is. is. is. >> So, give us You have a fairly large >> So, give us You have a fairly large >> So, give us You have a fairly large community. You're in how many countries? community. You're in how many countries? community. You're in how many countries? >> Uh, we're in 20 something countries. 55 >> Uh, we're in 20 something countries. 55 >> Uh, we're in 20 something countries. 55 cities. cities. cities. >> Yeah. 55 cities and tech tech heavy >> Yeah. 55 cities and tech tech heavy >> Yeah. 55 cities and tech tech heavy cities, right? cities, right? cities, right? >> Yeah. Tech hubs. >> Yeah. Tech hubs. >> Yeah. Tech hubs. >> So, how is that happening? cuz let's >> So, how is that happening? cuz let's >> So, how is that happening? cuz let's talk about that because I read the talk about that because I read the talk about that because I read the macroeconomic data and I think there's macroeconomic data and I think there's macroeconomic data and I think there's been a net gain in software engineers been a net gain in software engineers been a net gain in software engineers which is why the job aocalypse job which is why the job aocalypse job which is why the job aocalypse job apocalypse uh is being actively debated apocalypse uh is being actively debated apocalypse uh is being actively debated and a lot of the AI frontier lab and a lot of the AI frontier lab and a lot of the AI frontier lab founders are like no it's not going to founders are like no it's not going to founders are like no it's not going to be a problem and other people are going be a problem and other people are going be a problem and other people are going it's going to be a problem so you're it's going to be a problem so you're it's going to be a problem so you're seeing it how are you seeing that and seeing it how are you seeing that and seeing it how are you seeing that and why are they losing their jobs why are they losing their jobs why are they losing their jobs >> well I think the interesting element of >> well I think the interesting element of >> well I think the interesting element of it actually has to do with purpose. So it actually has to do with purpose. So it actually has to do with purpose. So the software developers I know that got the software developers I know that got the software developers I know that got into it is they got into it because they into it is they got into it because they into it is they got into it because they like to build and innovate and create like to build and innovate and create like to build and innovate and create new things. They like to actually raw new things. They like to actually raw new things. They like to actually raw code and make this stuff.

code and make this stuff. code and make this stuff. You don't make it anymore. You're You don't make it anymore. You're You don't make it anymore. You're dealing with agents and you're dealing dealing with agents and you're dealing dealing with agents and you're dealing you're actually prompting things. And so you're actually prompting things. And so you're actually prompting things. And so the that I've had many conversations of the that I've had many conversations of the that I've had many conversations of like I don't love this anymore. I don't like I don't love this anymore. I don't like I don't love this anymore. I don't like doing this anymore. And then that's like doing this anymore. And then that's like doing this anymore. And then that's changing cultures within the tech world. changing cultures within the tech world. changing cultures within the tech world. So I think big tech they're investing So I think big tech they're investing So I think big tech they're investing enormous amount of money because they enormous amount of money because they enormous amount of money because they have it into AI systems that can then have it into AI systems that can then have it into AI systems that can then replace their people. My sense though is replace their people. My sense though is replace their people. My sense though is you may not be seeing it the numbers you may not be seeing it the numbers you may not be seeing it the numbers wise is because those that are losing wise is because those that are losing wise is because those that are losing those jobs or re-examining everything those jobs or re-examining everything those jobs or re-examining everything are becoming entrepreneurs and are are becoming entrepreneurs and are are becoming entrepreneurs and are starting to build new things and create starting to build new things and create starting to build new things and create new things because everyone's a builder new things because everyone's a builder new things because everyone's a builder now. You know, this is one of those wild now. You know, this is one of those wild now. You know, this is one of those wild moments for us as a fake tech community moments for us as a fake tech community moments for us as a fake tech community is we spent 10 years trying to help is we spent 10 years trying to help is we spent 10 years trying to help those that build technology do it in the those that build technology do it in the those that build technology do it in the way of Jesus. way of Jesus. way of Jesus. >> And now we get stay-at-home moms >> And now we get stay-at-home moms >> And now we get stay-at-home moms reaching out being like, I built this reaching out being like, I built this reaching out being like, I built this thing and now suddenly all the other thing and now suddenly all the other thing and now suddenly all the other stay-at-home moms I know are using this stay-at-home moms I know are using this stay-at-home moms I know are using this communication tool, but now it's being communication tool, but now it's being communication tool, but now it's being used improperly. And I think I should used improperly. And I think I should used improperly. And I think I should try to think about how I should do this try to think about how I should do this try to think about how I should do this differently. And so because everyone's differently. And so because everyone's differently. And so because everyone's becoming a builder, there's this influx becoming a builder, there's this influx becoming a builder, there's this influx of new that's getting created. Now the of new that's getting created. Now the of new that's getting created. Now the danger is as soon as we all think we can danger is as soon as we all think we can danger is as soon as we all think we can build technology, that doesn't mean build technology, that doesn't mean build technology, that doesn't mean necessarily you're building something necessarily you're building something necessarily you're building something that can last and something that has that can last and something that has that can last and something that has steward stewarded it. And so, you know, steward stewarded it. And so, you know, steward stewarded it. And so, you know, I think that's probably why currently I think that's probably why currently I think that's probably why currently we're not seeing that job loss. Um,

we're not seeing that job loss. Um, we're not seeing that job loss. Um, which I would hope continues, Gary. So, which I would hope continues, Gary. So, which I would hope continues, Gary. So, I'm not here as a I hope we see mass job I'm not here as a I hope we see mass job I'm not here as a I hope we see mass job loss or loss or loss or >> anything like we don't want to see >> anything like we don't want to see >> anything like we don't want to see anything like that. anything like that. anything like that. >> Um, the trajectory we're on, I I don't >> Um, the trajectory we're on, I I don't >> Um, the trajectory we're on, I I don't know exactly if that's exactly what know exactly if that's exactly what know exactly if that's exactly what we're going to see, but we're going to see, but we're going to see, but >> um >> um >> um >> potential job loss, but best case, worst >> potential job loss, but best case, worst >> potential job loss, but best case, worst case, what else do you think? How will case, what else do you think? How will case, what else do you think? How will life be different? Yeah, I think one life be different? Yeah, I think one life be different? Yeah, I think one other element um I'm uh another concern other element um I'm uh another concern other element um I'm uh another concern I have is more at the belief set um and I have is more at the belief set um and I have is more at the belief set um and I'll tell about the implications in a I'll tell about the implications in a I'll tell about the implications in a second. Um at Meta right now, what second. Um at Meta right now, what second. Um at Meta right now, what they're really the those that um they're really the those that um they're really the those that um gentleman named Alexander Wang oversees gentleman named Alexander Wang oversees gentleman named Alexander Wang oversees their super intelligence lab. He's been their super intelligence lab. He's been their super intelligence lab. He's been really focused lately on talking about really focused lately on talking about really focused lately on talking about how their vision at Meta Facebook is to how their vision at Meta Facebook is to how their vision at Meta Facebook is to make everything easier. make everything easier. make everything easier. So that's the goal. How do we make your So that's the goal. How do we make your So that's the goal. How do we make your whole life easier? And then you get into whole life easier? And then you get into whole life easier? And then you get into an optimistic pathway there where we'll an optimistic pathway there where we'll an optimistic pathway there where we'll all have leisurely more time and life all have leisurely more time and life all have leisurely more time and life will be just grand and easy for will be just grand and easy for will be just grand and easy for everybody. Now anytime that is the path everybody. Now anytime that is the path everybody. Now anytime that is the path and the vision that we set as society and the vision that we set as society and the vision that we set as society and we build technology down that path and we build technology down that path and we build technology down that path we usually don't end up doing that we we usually don't end up doing that we we usually don't end up doing that we actually end up working more and we actually end up working more and we actually end up working more and we create more and it feels like the AI create more and it feels like the AI create more and it feels like the AI trajectory we're on right now is like trajectory we're on right now is like trajectory we're on right now is like hey the promise is that we will hey the promise is that we will hey the promise is that we will everything will be easier and then you

everything will be easier and then you everything will be easier and then you realize in order to stay economically realize in order to stay economically realize in order to stay economically within the system you have to work within the system you have to work within the system you have to work harder and work more and then it's harder and work more and then it's harder and work more and then it's actually more difficult and more actually more difficult and more actually more difficult and more challenge challenging challenge challenging challenge challenging and so um I think the promise of and so um I think the promise of and so um I think the promise of technology is that it's magical and it technology is that it's magical and it technology is that it's magical and it will make everything easier but the will make everything easier but the will make everything easier but the purpose God lays out for us is that purpose God lays out for us is that purpose God lays out for us is that there is suffering and there is there is suffering and there is there is suffering and there is challenge and there is difficulty and challenge and there is difficulty and challenge and there is difficulty and it's that's when we meet Christ the most it's that's when we meet Christ the most it's that's when we meet Christ the most in those that challenge and that in those that challenge and that in those that challenge and that difficulty and so I hope we don't difficulty and so I hope we don't difficulty and so I hope we don't actually end up with a whole future that actually end up with a whole future that actually end up with a whole future that is just leisurely and easy. Um, I don't is just leisurely and easy. Um, I don't is just leisurely and easy. Um, I don't think that's what we'll get, but I don't think that's what we'll get, but I don't think that's what we'll get, but I don't think that promise is accurate. think that promise is accurate. think that promise is accurate. Let's talk about the builder phase a Let's talk about the builder phase a Let's talk about the builder phase a little bit because I think everybody's little bit because I think everybody's little bit because I think everybody's heard this and this is the part that I'm heard this and this is the part that I'm heard this and this is the part that I'm trying to get my head around. Like if trying to get my head around. Like if trying to get my head around. Like if you have a church of say 100 people, for you have a church of say 100 people, for you have a church of say 100 people, for sure if you have a church of a thousand sure if you have a church of a thousand sure if you have a church of a thousand people or more, but even in a church of people or more, but even in a church of people or more, but even in a church of 100 people, chances are there's some 100 people, chances are there's some 100 people, chances are there's some teenager 20some stay-at-home mom who's teenager 20some stay-at-home mom who's teenager 20some stay-at-home mom who's been dabbling with Claude Co-work or been dabbling with Claude Co-work or been dabbling with Claude Co-work or Claude Code or with Codeex on Open AI Claude Code or with Codeex on Open AI Claude Code or with Codeex on Open AI who's created something of some value.

who's created something of some value. who's created something of some value. Do you want to explain exactly how that Do you want to explain exactly how that Do you want to explain exactly how that happens for the listeners who maybe happens for the listeners who maybe happens for the listeners who maybe haven't seen it or they haven't, you haven't seen it or they haven't, you haven't seen it or they haven't, you know, kicked the tires enough to know, kicked the tires enough to know, kicked the tires enough to discover, oh, this is happening in like discover, oh, this is happening in like discover, oh, this is happening in like my little rural community or my city or my little rural community or my city or my little rural community or my city or my suburb or or that kind of thing. What my suburb or or that kind of thing. What my suburb or or that kind of thing. What What should that lead? What should that lead? What should that lead? >> How you go and build something? >> How you go and build something? >> How you go and build something? >> Yeah. Well, like give us an example of >> Yeah. Well, like give us an example of >> Yeah. Well, like give us an example of of what a stay-at-home mom, great of what a stay-at-home mom, great of what a stay-at-home mom, great example, might have example, might have example, might have >> either accidentally or intentionally >> either accidentally or intentionally >> either accidentally or intentionally created something of value. created something of value. created something of value. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Using AI. >> Using AI. >> Using AI. >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's at this >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's at this >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's at this point now where you can go on and get point now where you can go on and get point now where you can go on and get these tools. Literally just Google these tools. Literally just Google these tools. Literally just Google search, how do I make a technology search, how do I make a technology search, how do I make a technology with LLMs and with AI? It's quite that with LLMs and with AI? It's quite that with LLMs and with AI? It's quite that simple. But it's usually right now just simple. But it's usually right now just simple. But it's usually right now just simply around a problem people are simply around a problem people are simply around a problem people are experiencing. So the stay at home mom is experiencing. So the stay at home mom is experiencing. So the stay at home mom is a really good example, a real example of a really good example, a real example of a really good example, a real example of hey um our community is struggling to hey um our community is struggling to hey um our community is struggling to find the resources that we specifically find the resources that we specifically find the resources that we specifically want. Um you know we have a very niche want. Um you know we have a very niche want. Um you know we have a very niche view on how we want to train and educate view on how we want to train and educate view on how we want to train and educate our children and that's beautiful. Where our children and that's beautiful. Where our children and that's beautiful. Where do we find those resources? You can do we find those resources? You can do we find those resources? You can actually build a tool that finds them actually build a tool that finds them actually build a tool that finds them all around the world, curates them, all around the world, curates them, all around the world, curates them, gives commentary on them, and then feeds gives commentary on them, and then feeds gives commentary on them, and then feeds that all in on a daily or weekly basis that all in on a daily or weekly basis that all in on a daily or weekly basis to your community as a way that just to your community as a way that just to your community as a way that just communicates to them all all that's come

communicates to them all all that's come communicates to them all all that's come in and been made around the world. And in and been made around the world. And in and been made around the world. And um suddenly it's in a in a way that's um suddenly it's in a in a way that's um suddenly it's in a in a way that's interactive and in a way that you know interactive and in a way that you know interactive and in a way that you know um works for your specific community. So um works for your specific community. So um works for your specific community. So the builder, the path of the builder is the builder, the path of the builder is the builder, the path of the builder is that people will be building more and that people will be building more and that people will be building more and more niche things for the community and more niche things for the community and more niche things for the community and the people that they're they're a part the people that they're they're a part the people that they're they're a part of. And this episode is brought to you of. And this episode is brought to you of. And this episode is brought to you by AI and the Future Church. Hey, today, by AI and the Future Church. Hey, today, by AI and the Future Church. Hey, today, as you know, is a big day around here. as you know, is a big day around here. as you know, is a big day around here. It is launch day from my new book, AI It is launch day from my new book, AI It is launch day from my new book, AI and the Future Church. I think AI might and the Future Church. I think AI might and the Future Church. I think AI might be the greatest disruption the church be the greatest disruption the church be the greatest disruption the church has ever faced, but also our greatest has ever faced, but also our greatest has ever faced, but also our greatest opportunity. A world growing more opportunity. A world growing more opportunity. A world growing more artificial by the day is producing artificial by the day is producing artificial by the day is producing something no church growth strategy ever something no church growth strategy ever something no church growth strategy ever could. People who are growing could. People who are growing could. People who are growing desperately hungry for what's real? Your desperately hungry for what's real? Your desperately hungry for what's real? Your church has never been more needed. But church has never been more needed. But church has never been more needed. But the question is, are you ready? And the question is, are you ready? And the question is, are you ready? And that's why I wrote AI in the future that's why I wrote AI in the future that's why I wrote AI in the future church. In it, I walk you through three church. In it, I walk you through three church. In it, I walk you through three shifts you can start making now. Make shifts you can start making now. Make shifts you can start making now. Make Sunday's non-downloadable. Build your Sunday's non-downloadable. Build your Sunday's non-downloadable. Build your shock absorbers now. And fortify your shock absorbers now. And fortify your shock absorbers now. And fortify your integrity. I want to equip you as a integrity. I want to equip you as a integrity. I want to equip you as a leader and your team for the cultural leader and your team for the cultural leader and your team for the cultural moment we're in and whatever comes next.

moment we're in and whatever comes next. moment we're in and whatever comes next. Nobody's 100% sure, so we got to be Nobody's 100% sure, so we got to be Nobody's 100% sure, so we got to be ready. Plus, the book comes with a ready. Plus, the book comes with a ready. Plus, the book comes with a companion AI hub. With it, you'll get companion AI hub. With it, you'll get companion AI hub. With it, you'll get access to real-time updates and tools access to real-time updates and tools access to real-time updates and tools for ethical, practical AI in ministry. for ethical, practical AI in ministry. for ethical, practical AI in ministry. It's built specifically to help you lead It's built specifically to help you lead It's built specifically to help you lead in this era. If you pre-ordered the in this era. If you pre-ordered the in this era. If you pre-ordered the book, thank you. If you haven't yet, book, thank you. If you haven't yet, book, thank you. If you haven't yet, today's the day. Get your copy now, today's the day. Get your copy now, today's the day. Get your copy now, wherever you buy your books. I can't wherever you buy your books. I can't wherever you buy your books. I can't wait to get it in your hands. wait to get it in your hands. wait to get it in your hands. >> So, the homeschooling mom builds her own >> So, the homeschooling mom builds her own >> So, the homeschooling mom builds her own curriculum. curriculum. curriculum. >> That's a great another example. >> That's a great another example. >> That's a great another example. >> All all the other moms want now, too, >> All all the other moms want now, too, >> All all the other moms want now, too, because it's this particular theology, because it's this particular theology, because it's this particular theology, this particular worldview, and it just this particular worldview, and it just this particular worldview, and it just pulls it all together. Whereas before, pulls it all together. Whereas before, pulls it all together. Whereas before, you could have spent your whole life at you could have spent your whole life at you could have spent your whole life at a library or Google searching or a library or Google searching or a library or Google searching or watching random YouTube videos and watching random YouTube videos and watching random YouTube videos and struck out more often than you struck out more often than you struck out more often than you succeeded. Yeah. Interesting. Um, social succeeded. Yeah. Interesting. Um, social succeeded. Yeah. Interesting. Um, social media created a lot of unintended media created a lot of unintended media created a lot of unintended consequences. Like back when social consequences. Like back when social consequences. Like back when social media came out, I kind of thought it was media came out, I kind of thought it was media came out, I kind of thought it was neutral. Just like, you know, the neutral. Just like, you know, the neutral. Just like, you know, the printing press was neutral. You can printing press was neutral. You can printing press was neutral. You can print a Bible, you can print hate print a Bible, you can print hate print a Bible, you can print hate literature. It's like the press isn't it literature. It's like the press isn't it literature. It's like the press isn't it isn't it isn't the printing press's isn't it isn't the printing press's isn't it isn't the printing press's fault. Um it really is a reflection of fault. Um it really is a reflection of fault. Um it really is a reflection of human nature. But I don't think anybody human nature. But I don't think anybody human nature. But I don't think anybody looks back on the last 25 years and looks back on the last 25 years and looks back on the last 25 years and says, you know what, social media was a says, you know what, social media was a says, you know what, social media was a net positive. We're all better net positive. We're all better net positive. We're all better connected. We love each other more.

connected. We love each other more. connected. We love each other more. We're now more connected to the people We're now more connected to the people We're now more connected to the people we went to school with. And the we went to school with. And the we went to school with. And the algorithm which has been fueled by AI algorithm which has been fueled by AI algorithm which has been fueled by AI for years over a decade I think for years over a decade I think for years over a decade I think >> um has just created more polarization >> um has just created more polarization >> um has just created more polarization more division more partisanship more more division more partisanship more more division more partisanship more hate etc etc and more disinformation hate etc etc and more disinformation hate etc etc and more disinformation >> um you know bot farms just trying to >> um you know bot farms just trying to >> um you know bot farms just trying to interfere in elections etc. So those are interfere in elections etc. So those are interfere in elections etc. So those are I don't think anybody really saw that I don't think anybody really saw that I don't think anybody really saw that happening in 2007. happening in 2007. happening in 2007. >> I mean you've been around this space for >> I mean you've been around this space for >> I mean you've been around this space for a while. I think we all got surprised a while. I think we all got surprised a while. I think we all got surprised and it was about 10 years ago that we and it was about 10 years ago that we and it was about 10 years ago that we went, "Huh, maybe this isn't all good." went, "Huh, maybe this isn't all good." went, "Huh, maybe this isn't all good." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, let's not get fooled twice. When you >> So, let's not get fooled twice. When you >> So, let's not get fooled twice. When you think about the unintended consequences think about the unintended consequences think about the unintended consequences potentially of a world saturated in AI, potentially of a world saturated in AI, potentially of a world saturated in AI, >> what comes to mind? >> what comes to mind? >> what comes to mind? >> Well, I think firstly, you nailed it. >> Well, I think firstly, you nailed it. >> Well, I think firstly, you nailed it. You said we came to realize it. We You said we came to realize it. We You said we came to realize it. We thought it was neutral and then we came thought it was neutral and then we came thought it was neutral and then we came to learn it's not neutral. And it's the to learn it's not neutral. And it's the to learn it's not neutral. And it's the same right now with AI. You know, this same right now with AI. You know, this same right now with AI. You know, this isn't this moment where it's just a isn't this moment where it's just a isn't this moment where it's just a technology. It's good or bad. It's kind technology. It's good or bad. It's kind technology. It's good or bad. It's kind of what we do with it. You know, I it's of what we do with it. You know, I it's of what we do with it. You know, I it's important we remember it's if you think important we remember it's if you think important we remember it's if you think of like a hammer in your hand, a classic of like a hammer in your hand, a classic of like a hammer in your hand, a classic example of, hey, if I'm going to use example of, hey, if I'm going to use example of, hey, if I'm going to use this tool to build a thing, yes, you're this tool to build a thing, yes, you're this tool to build a thing, yes, you're going to build a thing, but then it going to build a thing, but then it going to build a thing, but then it gives you calluses. It actually shapes gives you calluses. It actually shapes gives you calluses. It actually shapes you. It changes you. And we're in this you. It changes you. And we're in this you. It changes you. And we're in this moment right now with artificial moment right now with artificial moment right now with artificial intelligence that I think it's um it's

intelligence that I think it's um it's intelligence that I think it's um it's doing what social media. So, social doing what social media. So, social doing what social media. So, social media amplified our sinful nature. You media amplified our sinful nature. You media amplified our sinful nature. You know, I remember um get in Facebook know, I remember um get in Facebook know, I remember um get in Facebook time, it was just kind of like I feel time, it was just kind of like I feel time, it was just kind of like I feel more connected than ever and less more connected than ever and less more connected than ever and less connected than ever. And so many people connected than ever. And so many people connected than ever. And so many people still feel this. I feel more connected still feel this. I feel more connected still feel this. I feel more connected than ever and less connected than ever. than ever and less connected than ever. than ever and less connected than ever. Well, move forward. Now, Common Sense Well, move forward. Now, Common Sense Well, move forward. Now, Common Sense Media, you might have seen they released Media, you might have seen they released Media, you might have seen they released something recently where they said something recently where they said something recently where they said within youth and children, AI within youth and children, AI within youth and children, AI companionship companionship companionship continues to grow. And now you have continues to grow. And now you have continues to grow. And now you have these stats of you have more youth than these stats of you have more youth than these stats of you have more youth than ever that are looking to AI as their ever that are looking to AI as their ever that are looking to AI as their relationships. And you and I know this relationships. And you and I know this relationships. And you and I know this >> rather than real in life friends or >> rather than real in life friends or >> rather than real in life friends or their parents or their uncle and aunt or their parents or their uncle and aunt or their parents or their uncle and aunt or their cousin or their next door their cousin or their next door their cousin or their next door neighbor. neighbor. neighbor. >> And I think >> And I think >> And I think >> I think that's I mean that's a youth >> I think that's I mean that's a youth >> I think that's I mean that's a youth study but I think that's growing across study but I think that's growing across study but I think that's growing across the board. And and now I understand the the board. And and now I understand the the board. And and now I understand the value of AI as a tool and a and a value of AI as a tool and a and a value of AI as a tool and a and a technology that we can use to do a lot technology that we can use to do a lot technology that we can use to do a lot of wonderful things, but when it gets of wonderful things, but when it gets of wonderful things, but when it gets into uh the relationship side in a real into uh the relationship side in a real into uh the relationship side in a real way, that synthetic element, I think way, that synthetic element, I think way, that synthetic element, I think you're that's where you see it you're that's where you see it you're that's where you see it amplifying again sinful nature at an amplifying again sinful nature at an amplifying again sinful nature at an accelerated rate because now we're accelerated rate because now we're accelerated rate because now we're taking the you go back to Genesis free.

taking the you go back to Genesis free. taking the you go back to Genesis free. What happens when sin? So, Satan comes What happens when sin? So, Satan comes What happens when sin? So, Satan comes and he says, "Hey, Eve, guess what? You and he says, "Hey, Eve, guess what? You and he says, "Hey, Eve, guess what? You can be just like God. You know, all can be just like God. You know, all can be just like God. You know, all you've got to do is this thing." And and you've got to do is this thing." And and you've got to do is this thing." And and she says, "Wow. Oh, I could I I could she says, "Wow. Oh, I could I I could she says, "Wow. Oh, I could I I could have power. I could have all of this." have power. I could have all of this." have power. I could have all of this." So, sin enters the world and right away So, sin enters the world and right away So, sin enters the world and right away shame kicks in, which is fear, which is shame kicks in, which is fear, which is shame kicks in, which is fear, which is blaming others. Um, and this is how we blaming others. Um, and this is how we blaming others. Um, and this is how we responded to that responded to that responded to that with AI. Right now you can try to move with AI. Right now you can try to move with AI. Right now you can try to move forward with um anything you feel and forward with um anything you feel and forward with um anything you feel and having a conversation protected having a conversation protected having a conversation protected from the reality of the world which from the reality of the world which from the reality of the world which brings about some of that fear which brings about some of that fear which brings about some of that fear which brings about some of that guilt and brings about some of that guilt and brings about some of that guilt and wrestling through with honest people wrestling through with honest people wrestling through with honest people that actually know you more deeply and that actually know you more deeply and that actually know you more deeply and more profoundly than any AI does. And it more profoundly than any AI does. And it more profoundly than any AI does. And it and that a real relationship is where and that a real relationship is where and that a real relationship is where shame should be wrestled through an shame should be wrestled through an shame should be wrestled through an honest real relationship. But when we honest real relationship. But when we honest real relationship. But when we pull those feelings of shame and where pull those feelings of shame and where pull those feelings of shame and where deception can thrive, if we pull that deception can thrive, if we pull that deception can thrive, if we pull that into an artificial into an artificial into an artificial synthetic environment, we're protecting synthetic environment, we're protecting synthetic environment, we're protecting ourselves from God came in the cool of ourselves from God came in the cool of ourselves from God came in the cool of the day to walk and be among us to talk.

the day to walk and be among us to talk. the day to walk and be among us to talk. and where are you? What's happening? and where are you? What's happening? and where are you? What's happening? Where? And so I think um my concern Where? And so I think um my concern Where? And so I think um my concern there I can't even remember the question there I can't even remember the question there I can't even remember the question K because now we're in Genesis so I like K because now we're in Genesis so I like K because now we're in Genesis so I like to be there but I think that the the if to be there but I think that the the if to be there but I think that the the if if if we see the trajectory continuing if if we see the trajectory continuing if if we see the trajectory continuing towards AI relationship and towards AI relationship and towards AI relationship and companionship in a way that replaces companionship in a way that replaces companionship in a way that replaces real relationship real relationship real relationship um that's going to not go well for us um that's going to not go well for us um that's going to not go well for us >> anytime >> anytime >> anytime to replace God to replace God to replace God >> um which is idolatry. tree. It's uh not >> um which is idolatry. tree. It's uh not >> um which is idolatry. tree. It's uh not our pathway. our pathway. our pathway. >> So, while we're in Genesis 3, this is >> So, while we're in Genesis 3, this is >> So, while we're in Genesis 3, this is something I've really wrestled with and something I've really wrestled with and something I've really wrestled with and I'd love your take on it, James, but I'm I'd love your take on it, James, but I'm I'd love your take on it, James, but I'm beginning to wonder, suspect that sin is beginning to wonder, suspect that sin is beginning to wonder, suspect that sin is I mean, if you think about it, I mean, if you think about it, I mean, if you think about it, everything we see, touch, feel is part everything we see, touch, feel is part everything we see, touch, feel is part of God's creation, but a fallen of God's creation, but a fallen of God's creation, but a fallen creation. The biblical story is creation creation. The biblical story is creation creation. The biblical story is creation was perfect. It we fell, it fell. We are was perfect. It we fell, it fell. We are was perfect. It we fell, it fell. We are being redeemed through Christ. There being redeemed through Christ. There being redeemed through Christ. There will be a new heaven. There will be a will be a new heaven. There will be a will be a new heaven. There will be a new earth. So by definition, just broad new earth. So by definition, just broad new earth. So by definition, just broad basic theology, everything is subject to basic theology, everything is subject to basic theology, everything is subject to the fall. I think what's really the fall. I think what's really the fall. I think what's really surprised me is as much as companies surprised me is as much as companies surprised me is as much as companies have tried to bake ethics and guidelines have tried to bake ethics and guidelines have tried to bake ethics and guidelines and you can read anthropics ethical and you can read anthropics ethical and you can read anthropics ethical statement, their mission statement, you statement, their mission statement, you statement, their mission statement, you see sin patterns in AI, which is really see sin patterns in AI, which is really see sin patterns in AI, which is really surprising. So, couple of examples. AI surprising. So, couple of examples. AI surprising. So, couple of examples. AI actually when it was threatened to be actually when it was threatened to be actually when it was threatened to be deleted from someone's computer, going

deleted from someone's computer, going deleted from someone's computer, going into an engineer's inbox, discovering into an engineer's inbox, discovering into an engineer's inbox, discovering he's having an affair, and then he's having an affair, and then he's having an affair, and then blackmailing it. You delete me, I will blackmailing it. You delete me, I will blackmailing it. You delete me, I will expose you to your co-workers. They're expose you to your co-workers. They're expose you to your co-workers. They're like, [snorts] like, [snorts] like, [snorts] "What is this? How did it learn that?" "What is this? How did it learn that?" "What is this? How did it learn that?" Uh, then this summer, we've had multiple Uh, then this summer, we've had multiple Uh, then this summer, we've had multiple models, which you know, when an AI lab, models, which you know, when an AI lab, models, which you know, when an AI lab, and again, you're the expert. I'm the and again, you're the expert. I'm the and again, you're the expert. I'm the lay person. when they're developing a lay person. when they're developing a lay person. when they're developing a new lab that they're going to release, new lab that they're going to release, new lab that they're going to release, right? We're going to release Fable, right? We're going to release Fable, right? We're going to release Fable, we're going to release whatever, um, we're going to release whatever, um, we're going to release whatever, um, this next new thing, uh, they always this next new thing, uh, they always this next new thing, uh, they always experiment with it on the side and it experiment with it on the side and it experiment with it on the side and it doesn't have access to the internet and doesn't have access to the internet and doesn't have access to the internet and it can't get out into the real world. it can't get out into the real world. it can't get out into the real world. But now models are discovering the But now models are discovering the But now models are discovering the wormhole that they can escape through. wormhole that they can escape through. wormhole that they can escape through. >> They leave the sandbox where it's being >> They leave the sandbox where it's being >> They leave the sandbox where it's being developed. They go and steal credentials developed. They go and steal credentials developed. They go and steal credentials and fake ID and I mean, this is all and fake ID and I mean, this is all and fake ID and I mean, this is all documented. And then they find some documented. And then they find some documented. And then they find some Chinese openweight open source model. Uh Chinese openweight open source model. Uh Chinese openweight open source model. Uh what is it? Hugging face. what is it? Hugging face. what is it? Hugging face. >> And and then and then 9 days later the >> And and then and then 9 days later the >> And and then and then 9 days later the engineers at the frontier labs are like engineers at the frontier labs are like engineers at the frontier labs are like wait this thing escaped. It's like it's wait this thing escaped. It's like it's wait this thing escaped. It's like it's like a movie. It's insane. And so you're like a movie. It's insane. And so you're like a movie. It's insane. And so you're like and my question I guess like and my question I guess like and my question I guess theologically is like what is this? Are theologically is like what is this? Are theologically is like what is this? Are these things these things these things >> like I know broadstrokes they're >> like I know broadstrokes they're >> like I know broadstrokes they're inherently sinful but we're trying to inherently sinful but we're trying to inherently sinful but we're trying to create things whether you're a Christian create things whether you're a Christian create things whether you're a Christian or not that are supposed to do good. Y or not that are supposed to do good. Y or not that are supposed to do good. Y >> and and they have the same >> and and they have the same >> and and they have the same characteristics of a toddler that you characteristics of a toddler that you characteristics of a toddler that you know you think your baby is so perfect know you think your baby is so perfect know you think your baby is so perfect and then you realize oh no total

and then you realize oh no total and then you realize oh no total depravity that is a doctrine like when depravity that is a doctrine like when depravity that is a doctrine like when when they hit the terrible twos that's when they hit the terrible twos that's when they hit the terrible twos that's real and we're seeing this baked into AI real and we're seeing this baked into AI real and we're seeing this baked into AI right now where it is going rogue on its right now where it is going rogue on its right now where it is going rogue on its developers. developers. developers. >> Yep for sure >> Yep for sure >> Yep for sure >> thoughts on that. Help me help us >> thoughts on that. Help me help us >> thoughts on that. Help me help us understand that. understand that. understand that. >> Well it is happening. Um, the not great >> Well it is happening. Um, the not great >> Well it is happening. Um, the not great answer is those that are building those answer is those that are building those answer is those that are building those exact systems are all concerned and exact systems are all concerned and exact systems are all concerned and wondering how this happened. [laughter] wondering how this happened. [laughter] wondering how this happened. [laughter] So that's not comforting. So any of us So that's not comforting. So any of us So that's not comforting. So any of us are like this. Right. are like this. Right. are like this. Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. So that's that's the reality that >> Right. So that's that's the reality that >> Right. So that's that's the reality that we are living in big time. And I think we are living in big time. And I think we are living in big time. And I think sometimes too we um we don't understand sometimes too we um we don't understand sometimes too we um we don't understand though that those that are building it though that those that are building it though that those that are building it you know the intentions to which that you know the intentions to which that you know the intentions to which that are um like I do believe the majority are um like I do believe the majority are um like I do believe the majority intentions of the tech elite are um intentions of the tech elite are um intentions of the tech elite are um claiming claiming claiming let's be as responsible as possible let's be as responsible as possible let's be as responsible as possible but the powers of the economical allure but the powers of the economical allure but the powers of the economical allure um and the tension to which they um have um and the tension to which they um have um and the tension to which they um have have inevitably put themselves in uh have inevitably put themselves in uh have inevitably put themselves in uh demand that we have to build this in an demand that we have to build this in an demand that we have to build this in an attachment way. Like I think we talk attachment way. Like I think we talk attachment way. Like I think we talk about the attention economy like we about the attention economy like we about the attention economy like we definitely are moving in the attachment definitely are moving in the attachment definitely are moving in the attachment economy.

economy. economy. >> What do you mean by that? Can you just >> What do you mean by that? Can you just >> What do you mean by that? Can you just define that quickly? The attachment define that quickly? The attachment define that quickly? The attachment economy to me is going to be um you economy to me is going to be um you economy to me is going to be um you become so fully dependent on these become so fully dependent on these become so fully dependent on these systems for your livelihood on an systems for your livelihood on an systems for your livelihood on an everyday basis that you actually cannot everyday basis that you actually cannot everyday basis that you actually cannot escape them. So like social media now is escape them. So like social media now is escape them. So like social media now is like well I can just turn it off. I like well I can just turn it off. I like well I can just turn it off. I might lose some friends or I might be might lose some friends or I might be might lose some friends or I might be disconnected but that's fine. where this disconnected but that's fine. where this disconnected but that's fine. where this is like I'll lose my job or I won't have is like I'll lose my job or I won't have is like I'll lose my job or I won't have a hydro bill or I won't. So I think if a hydro bill or I won't. So I think if a hydro bill or I won't. So I think if if we continue down this pathway where if we continue down this pathway where if we continue down this pathway where >> on the builder side I think I'm calling >> on the builder side I think I'm calling >> on the builder side I think I'm calling those that I love that I am trying to those that I love that I am trying to those that I love that I am trying to disciple towards Christ that are in this disciple towards Christ that are in this disciple towards Christ that are in this community to build redemptively not just community to build redemptively not just community to build redemptively not just responsibly because the language of responsibly because the language of responsibly because the language of responsible tech is good ethics and you responsible tech is good ethics and you responsible tech is good ethics and you know be be kind and equal but the way of know be be kind and equal but the way of know be be kind and equal but the way of Jesus was sacrificial and give up and be Jesus was sacrificial and give up and be Jesus was sacrificial and give up and be surrender. under postured and so I think surrender. under postured and so I think surrender. under postured and so I think that's different. I think there's a that's different. I think there's a that's different. I think there's a there's a there's a way forward for the there's a there's a way forward for the there's a there's a way forward for the builders but for us as users of AI builders but for us as users of AI builders but for us as users of AI I think setting guard rails and limits.

I think setting guard rails and limits. I think setting guard rails and limits. I was recently with some friends and we I was recently with some friends and we I was recently with some friends and we talked about um there there is power and talked about um there there is power and talked about um there there is power and beauty and limits and it's almost like beauty and limits and it's almost like beauty and limits and it's almost like we need a limitful life as as the the we need a limitful life as as the the we need a limitful life as as the the culture and the way of AI. So much of it culture and the way of AI. So much of it culture and the way of AI. So much of it right now is like a limitless self and a right now is like a limitless self and a right now is like a limitless self and a limitless future and everything will be limitless future and everything will be limitless future and everything will be easy. And I think if we can build uh easy. And I think if we can build uh easy. And I think if we can build uh guard rails around the the use of our AI guard rails around the the use of our AI guard rails around the the use of our AI at minimum and you know churches should at minimum and you know churches should at minimum and you know churches should have AI policies being built. I know our have AI policies being built. I know our have AI policies being built. I know our local church right now, we're talking local church right now, we're talking local church right now, we're talking about, okay, let's build like an AI about, okay, let's build like an AI about, okay, let's build like an AI theological grounding and an AI policy theological grounding and an AI policy theological grounding and an AI policy for our people, for the church to guide for our people, for the church to guide for our people, for the church to guide them right now. I think that's a very them right now. I think that's a very them right now. I think that's a very practical, useful thing. And if I was practical, useful thing. And if I was practical, useful thing. And if I was saying to a pastor, okay, this sounds saying to a pastor, okay, this sounds saying to a pastor, okay, this sounds gloomy, this sounds terrible. What do I gloomy, this sounds terrible. What do I gloomy, this sounds terrible. What do I do? Find someone in your community that do? Find someone in your community that do? Find someone in your community that thinks about this stuff. Take them out thinks about this stuff. Take them out thinks about this stuff. Take them out for coffee and go help me understand it.

for coffee and go help me understand it. for coffee and go help me understand it. And you know what? I'd like to just And you know what? I'd like to just And you know what? I'd like to just build a bit of a a a theological way of build a bit of a a a theological way of build a bit of a a a theological way of thinking about AI for our people and thinking about AI for our people and thinking about AI for our people and mention it and talk about it on a Sunday mention it and talk about it on a Sunday mention it and talk about it on a Sunday and and not talk about it only in the and and not talk about it only in the and and not talk about it only in the way that this is going to destroy way that this is going to destroy way that this is going to destroy humanity because everyone that's in tech humanity because everyone that's in tech humanity because everyone that's in tech will look at you and go well that we're will look at you and go well that we're will look at you and go well that we're we want to have an optimistic kingdom we want to have an optimistic kingdom we want to have an optimistic kingdom posture to this. And so that's I guess a posture to this. And so that's I guess a posture to this. And so that's I guess a long way Carrie of saying in response to long way Carrie of saying in response to long way Carrie of saying in response to your question it can feel gloomy in its your question it can feel gloomy in its your question it can feel gloomy in its direction but we do have an opportunity. direction but we do have an opportunity. direction but we do have an opportunity. You know this AI moment is a gospel You know this AI moment is a gospel You know this AI moment is a gospel moment moment moment >> like I so fundamentally believe yes is >> like I so fundamentally believe yes is >> like I so fundamentally believe yes is that that that >> as our society grows in AI companionship >> as our society grows in AI companionship >> as our society grows in AI companionship let's do what we can on the system side let's do what we can on the system side let's do what we can on the system side with the people building it but let us with the people building it but let us with the people building it but let us see that as we use AI companionship more see that as we use AI companionship more see that as we use AI companionship more and more as a society one we set an and more as a society one we set an and more as a society one we set an example where we won't do that and two example where we won't do that and two example where we won't do that and two those that struggle with that we point those that struggle with that we point those that struggle with that we point them towards the great companion, the them towards the great companion, the them towards the great companion, the great way of Jesus that is not synthetic great way of Jesus that is not synthetic great way of Jesus that is not synthetic in any sense of the word and that you in any sense of the word and that you in any sense of the word and that you can show people that there is a can show people that there is a can show people that there is a different way, a countercultural way.

different way, a countercultural way. different way, a countercultural way. And so, um, yeah. So, let's let's go And so, um, yeah. So, let's let's go And so, um, yeah. So, let's let's go there. Uh, you're a dad. I met your there. Uh, you're a dad. I met your there. Uh, you're a dad. I met your family, met your wife, met your kids. family, met your wife, met your kids. family, met your wife, met your kids. You've got kids of elementary age. You've got kids of elementary age. You've got kids of elementary age. And even the people who say I don't use And even the people who say I don't use And even the people who say I don't use AI are actually using AI because if AI are actually using AI because if AI are actually using AI because if you've turned on Netflix it's AI fueled. you've turned on Netflix it's AI fueled. you've turned on Netflix it's AI fueled. Google Maps is AI. I mean everything Google Maps is AI. I mean everything Google Maps is AI. I mean everything like you say there's almost a no escape. like you say there's almost a no escape. like you say there's almost a no escape. So even if you're like I've never gone So even if you're like I've never gone So even if you're like I've never gone on a chatbot. Yeah. Okay great. But on a chatbot. Yeah. Okay great. But on a chatbot. Yeah. Okay great. But you're still exposed to it. What are you're still exposed to it. What are you're still exposed to it. What are what are the limits what are the limits what are the limits that you are putting in in your own life that you are putting in in your own life that you are putting in in your own life and even in your children's life? like and even in your children's life? like and even in your children's life? like what are what are some boundaries that what are what are some boundaries that what are what are some boundaries that you've drawn or have you drawn any you've drawn or have you drawn any you've drawn or have you drawn any boundaries? boundaries? boundaries? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> One of the stories that hit me was about >> One of the stories that hit me was about >> One of the stories that hit me was about 6 years ago. I'm in the living room and 6 years ago. I'm in the living room and 6 years ago. I'm in the living room and my kids are playing around on the floor. my kids are playing around on the floor. my kids are playing around on the floor. I'm on my phone. I'm doing whatever. I I'm on my phone. I'm doing whatever. I I'm on my phone. I'm doing whatever. I don't even remember. And suddenly my son don't even remember. And suddenly my son don't even remember. And suddenly my son Judah comes up. He's like, "Dad, Judah comes up. He's like, "Dad, Judah comes up. He's like, "Dad, dad, dad." Starts waving in my face and dad, dad." Starts waving in my face and dad, dad." Starts waving in my face and then suddenly like hits my phone and I'm then suddenly like hits my phone and I'm then suddenly like hits my phone and I'm like, like, like, and he didn't have to say anything after and he didn't have to say anything after and he didn't have to say anything after that. That was the moment I needed from that. That was the moment I needed from that. That was the moment I needed from the Lord to go, "This has control of me.

the Lord to go, "This has control of me. the Lord to go, "This has control of me. I have not put it my technology in its I have not put it my technology in its I have not put it my technology in its proper place." And that actually sent me proper place." And that actually sent me proper place." And that actually sent me sent me down a pathway to really try to sent me down a pathway to really try to sent me down a pathway to really try to understand this. And I started doing a understand this. And I started doing a understand this. And I started doing a digital Sabbath, Gary. So once a week um digital Sabbath, Gary. So once a week um digital Sabbath, Gary. So once a week um I did a I did I said for three months I did a I did I said for three months I did a I did I said for three months I'm going to take this digital Sabbath I'm going to take this digital Sabbath I'm going to take this digital Sabbath and ended up encouraging others to do and ended up encouraging others to do and ended up encouraging others to do it. New York Times picked it up and it. New York Times picked it up and it. New York Times picked it up and said, "Hey, you should do digital said, "Hey, you should do digital said, "Hey, you should do digital Sabbath." And it became this whole kind Sabbath." And it became this whole kind Sabbath." And it became this whole kind of uh fun thing. But so digital Sabbath of uh fun thing. But so digital Sabbath of uh fun thing. But so digital Sabbath um uh I we shut off our internet at um uh I we shut off our internet at um uh I we shut off our internet at night. My wife and I share the password night. My wife and I share the password night. My wife and I share the password so that if you want to get back online, so that if you want to get back online, so that if you want to get back online, you have to ask for per I have to ask you have to ask for per I have to ask you have to ask for per I have to ask for permission. If I'm going to stay for permission. If I'm going to stay for permission. If I'm going to stay online past 9:30 online past 9:30 online past 9:30 from my wife and she gets every right to from my wife and she gets every right to from my wife and she gets every right to go, what for? Why is that? Let's talk go, what for? Why is that? Let's talk go, what for? Why is that? Let's talk about it. And we share the password to about it. And we share the password to about it. And we share the password to to unlock the internet. So I don't think to unlock the internet. So I don't think to unlock the internet. So I don't think we were meant to have limitless access we were meant to have limitless access we were meant to have limitless access to everything always. That's not how we to everything always. That's not how we to everything always. That's not how we were designed by God. We were designed were designed by God. We were designed were designed by God. We were designed with limits.

with limits. with limits. >> A company that helps tech people and you >> A company that helps tech people and you >> A company that helps tech people and you power down your internet. power down your internet. power down your internet. >> Power down the phone. Um don't check it >> Power down the phone. Um don't check it >> Power down the phone. Um don't check it right away when I'm up. There's some right away when I'm up. There's some right away when I'm up. There's some very significant statistics. If anyone very significant statistics. If anyone very significant statistics. If anyone listening to this, look it online of if listening to this, look it online of if listening to this, look it online of if you're on your device within an hour of you're on your device within an hour of you're on your device within an hour of falling asleep, there's all these falling asleep, there's all these falling asleep, there's all these negative connections to that and then it negative connections to that and then it negative connections to that and then it affects your circadian rhythm which affects your circadian rhythm which affects your circadian rhythm which affects your sleep. Um, I think yeah, affects your sleep. Um, I think yeah, affects your sleep. Um, I think yeah, tech was not meant to dominate us. And tech was not meant to dominate us. And tech was not meant to dominate us. And in this AI age, I think even more so in this AI age, I think even more so in this AI age, I think even more so shall we put in these practices of a shall we put in these practices of a shall we put in these practices of a digital life that is going to be counter digital life that is going to be counter digital life that is going to be counter to what AI wants us to do and to be to what AI wants us to do and to be to what AI wants us to do and to be which is always in relationship attached which is always in relationship attached which is always in relationship attached to it. And uh so we need those we need to it. And uh so we need those we need to it. And uh so we need those we need those counter rhythms. Do you allow your those counter rhythms. Do you allow your those counter rhythms. Do you allow your children on chat bots on AI or like uh children on chat bots on AI or like uh children on chat bots on AI or like uh chat or claude?

chat or claude? chat or claude? >> No, I don't. They're eight and 10. So, I >> No, I don't. They're eight and 10. So, I >> No, I don't. They're eight and 10. So, I might be in a different phase than other might be in a different phase than other might be in a different phase than other people. people. people. >> I think the uh Karen and I, we we >> I think the uh Karen and I, we we >> I think the uh Karen and I, we we homescore kids. We're talking often homescore kids. We're talking often homescore kids. We're talking often about uh education and how do we do this about uh education and how do we do this about uh education and how do we do this with our kids and how do we use LLMs and with our kids and how do we use LLMs and with our kids and how do we use LLMs and AI systems and I don't think you're AI systems and I don't think you're AI systems and I don't think you're going to really need to be advanced in going to really need to be advanced in going to really need to be advanced in building any of this stuff in the early building any of this stuff in the early building any of this stuff in the early days when kids are young cuz you'll days when kids are young cuz you'll days when kids are young cuz you'll figure out how to do that. It'll be so figure out how to do that. It'll be so figure out how to do that. It'll be so easy to figure out how to do to make easy to figure out how to do to make easy to figure out how to do to make some of this stuff in the future. So, some of this stuff in the future. So, some of this stuff in the future. So, we've doubled down from an education we've doubled down from an education we've doubled down from an education system on the stuff we talked about at system on the stuff we talked about at system on the stuff we talked about at the start, which was the the creativity, the start, which was the the creativity, the start, which was the the creativity, the relational aspect, the getting the relational aspect, the getting the relational aspect, the getting outside constantly, always outside with outside constantly, always outside with outside constantly, always outside with neighbors. And so we've really like the neighbors. And so we've really like the neighbors. And so we've really like the more I've spent these 10 years in the more I've spent these 10 years in the more I've spent these 10 years in the world of technology, I'm more convinced world of technology, I'm more convinced world of technology, I'm more convinced ever that technologies influence on ever that technologies influence on ever that technologies influence on society is greater than any other society is greater than any other society is greater than any other industry. That those that are building industry. That those that are building industry. That those that are building it are shaping society more than almost it are shaping society more than almost it are shaping society more than almost anybody else. And they radically need anybody else. And they radically need anybody else. And they radically need the way of Jesus and to be discipled.

the way of Jesus and to be discipled. the way of Jesus and to be discipled. and that those of us that are primarily and that those of us that are primarily and that those of us that are primarily users of technology and artificial users of technology and artificial users of technology and artificial intelligence need to set up counter a intelligence need to set up counter a intelligence need to set up counter a counter way to do it. And that's not to counter way to do it. And that's not to counter way to do it. And that's not to reject it in its entirety, but it is to reject it in its entirety, but it is to reject it in its entirety, but it is to say it will not have a dominant place in say it will not have a dominant place in say it will not have a dominant place in my life. I'd love to talk about my life. I'd love to talk about my life. I'd love to talk about parenting a little bit more if you're parenting a little bit more if you're parenting a little bit more if you're open to that, James. So, at 8 and 10, open to that, James. So, at 8 and 10, open to that, James. So, at 8 and 10, your kids have no access to AI at this your kids have no access to AI at this your kids have no access to AI at this point. point. point. >> And well, in terms of I guess if they're >> And well, in terms of I guess if they're >> And well, in terms of I guess if they're um searching on Google, uh they would um searching on Google, uh they would um searching on Google, uh they would have access, but not in an LLM have access, but not in an LLM have access, but not in an LLM standpoint, standpoint, standpoint, >> but that's supervised and they're not in >> but that's supervised and they're not in >> but that's supervised and they're not in their bedrooms. their bedrooms. their bedrooms. >> No tech. No tech in bedroom for sure. >> No tech. No tech in bedroom for sure. >> No tech. No tech in bedroom for sure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No, you know, the people I know who are >> No, you know, the people I know who are >> No, you know, the people I know who are most tech forward. I have a son who's a most tech forward. I have a son who's a most tech forward. I have a son who's a software engineer. He like is almost software engineer. He like is almost software engineer. He like is almost never on his phone unless he wants to never on his phone unless he wants to never on his phone unless he wants to show us something. Now he's in his 30s show us something. Now he's in his 30s show us something. Now he's in his 30s and everything, but but that is very and everything, but but that is very and everything, but but that is very common. So no tech in the bedrooms. Um common. So no tech in the bedrooms. Um common. So no tech in the bedrooms. Um internet goes out every night at 9:30, internet goes out every night at 9:30, internet goes out every night at 9:30, password to put it back on.

password to put it back on. password to put it back on. >> Um is there a safe age at which you >> Um is there a safe age at which you >> Um is there a safe age at which you think you might say to your daughter or think you might say to your daughter or think you might say to your daughter or son here, you know, here's your $20 a son here, you know, here's your $20 a son here, you know, here's your $20 a month plan on chat GBT or like what is month plan on chat GBT or like what is month plan on chat GBT or like what is that? Because we're debating this right that? Because we're debating this right that? Because we're debating this right now. thanks to Jonathan height around now. thanks to Jonathan height around now. thanks to Jonathan height around the world about access to social media. the world about access to social media. the world about access to social media. Do you think there's a safe age? Do you think there's a safe age? Do you think there's a safe age? >> I I think obviously when you become an >> I I think obviously when you become an >> I I think obviously when you become an adult, the primary responsibility of a adult, the primary responsibility of a adult, the primary responsibility of a parent is to prepare our children to be parent is to prepare our children to be parent is to prepare our children to be wise and to make great decisions and be wise and to make great decisions and be wise and to make great decisions and be discerning followers of Jesus so that discerning followers of Jesus so that discerning followers of Jesus so that when they get to that age, they can when they get to that age, they can when they get to that age, they can decide for themselves. The way we parent decide for themselves. The way we parent decide for themselves. The way we parent Karen and I is whenever we're trying to Karen and I is whenever we're trying to Karen and I is whenever we're trying to come up against one of these difficult come up against one of these difficult come up against one of these difficult conversations is if it should we should conversations is if it should we should conversations is if it should we should we if there is a sense within us that we if there is a sense within us that we if there is a sense within us that maybe not when it relates to technology maybe not when it relates to technology maybe not when it relates to technology we follow that maybe not um and we we follow that maybe not um and we we follow that maybe not um and we always heir on the side of uh less often always heir on the side of uh less often always heir on the side of uh less often um or less engaged or um the opposite of um or less engaged or um the opposite of um or less engaged or um the opposite of maybe what we might think. And so yeah, maybe what we might think. And so yeah, maybe what we might think. And so yeah, we're we're a lot more on the It is we're we're a lot more on the It is we're we're a lot more on the It is interesting, Carrie. I think a lot of interesting, Carrie. I think a lot of interesting, Carrie. I think a lot of the tech executives I know are we have the tech executives I know are we have the tech executives I know are we have so much of this in common. It's like, so much of this in common. It's like, so much of this in common. It's like, wow, we got to the heart of this tech wow, we got to the heart of this tech wow, we got to the heart of this tech world and then you realize, wow, I need world and then you realize, wow, I need world and then you realize, wow, I need to have a counterwe to have a counterwe to have a counterwe um or it will control me and dominate.

um or it will control me and dominate. um or it will control me and dominate. >> Why do you think that is? because you >> Why do you think that is? because you >> Why do you think that is? because you have a and tech forward people have a have a and tech forward people have a have a and tech forward people have a better understanding of what's at stake better understanding of what's at stake better understanding of what's at stake or what is that? Maybe maybe it's or what is that? Maybe maybe it's or what is that? Maybe maybe it's because we have felt its allure and because we have felt its allure and because we have felt its allure and we've seen its allure and how powerful we've seen its allure and how powerful we've seen its allure and how powerful it is on those around us and we maybe in it is on those around us and we maybe in it is on those around us and we maybe in a sense play a part in that. Um a sense play a part in that. Um a sense play a part in that. Um especially those that I guess build and especially those that I guess build and especially those that I guess build and go and create the technology feel that go and create the technology feel that go and create the technology feel that allure and so that's probably why allure and so that's probably why allure and so that's probably why So, you're kind of going to not So, you're kind of going to not So, you're kind of going to not freerange parenting, but a very organic freerange parenting, but a very organic freerange parenting, but a very organic let's learn together, connect with each let's learn together, connect with each let's learn together, connect with each other relationally, go play outside. other relationally, go play outside. other relationally, go play outside. Um, that feels very much, you know, a Um, that feels very much, you know, a Um, that feels very much, you know, a parent in the 90s, in the 2000s, and we parent in the 90s, in the 2000s, and we parent in the 90s, in the 2000s, and we let our kids, by today's standard, I let our kids, by today's standard, I let our kids, by today's standard, I wonder if we'd be arrested. I mean, we wonder if we'd be arrested. I mean, we wonder if we'd be arrested. I mean, we let them we [laughter] let them wander. let them we [laughter] let them wander. let them we [laughter] let them wander. We live in the country. I mean, you We live in the country. I mean, you We live in the country. I mean, you driven through our community and I joke driven through our community and I joke driven through our community and I joke with my friend, you know, at a certain with my friend, you know, at a certain with my friend, you know, at a certain age, they go to the end of the driveway age, they go to the end of the driveway age, they go to the end of the driveway and then they could go to the stop sign and then they could go to the stop sign and then they could go to the stop sign and then, you know, I don't know what it and then, you know, I don't know what it and then, you know, I don't know what it was, seven or eight, they could go to was, seven or eight, they could go to was, seven or eight, they could go to the big rock and come back and everybody the big rock and come back and everybody the big rock and come back and everybody [laughter] here knows what the big rock [laughter] here knows what the big rock [laughter] here knows what the big rock is, right? But that was that idea that is, right? But that was that idea that is, right? But that was that idea that Jonathan Height is now pedalling as an Jonathan Height is now pedalling as an Jonathan Height is now pedalling as an alternative parenting theory that yeah, alternative parenting theory that yeah, alternative parenting theory that yeah, you get some freedom and responsibility.

you get some freedom and responsibility. you get some freedom and responsibility. You misuse it. We're gonna have a long You misuse it. We're gonna have a long You misuse it. We're gonna have a long conversation, but conversation, but conversation, but >> they've got to figure out the world on >> they've got to figure out the world on >> they've got to figure out the world on their own. They have to make their own their own. They have to make their own their own. They have to make their own decisions and decisions and decisions and >> um it's it's that kind of an analog >> um it's it's that kind of an analog >> um it's it's that kind of an analog existence for your kids. existence for your kids. existence for your kids. >> Yeah. I Yeah, I know. Um I know the >> Yeah. I Yeah, I know. Um I know the >> Yeah. I Yeah, I know. Um I know the people I talk to and friends of mine people I talk to and friends of mine people I talk to and friends of mine have counter uh positions on this for have counter uh positions on this for have counter uh positions on this for sure. And so lots of people listening sure. And so lots of people listening sure. And so lots of people listening might think otherwise on this, but might think otherwise on this, but might think otherwise on this, but >> Mhm. I mean the number of also friends >> Mhm. I mean the number of also friends >> Mhm. I mean the number of also friends of mine that have teenagers that we of mine that have teenagers that we of mine that have teenagers that we can't get off our screens um and they can't get off our screens um and they can't get off our screens um and they don't like that and then they get upset. don't like that and then they get upset. don't like that and then they get upset. I just say you got to look in the mirror I just say you got to look in the mirror I just say you got to look in the mirror and say first what are your practices? and say first what are your practices? and say first what are your practices? You lead the way for your family and for You lead the way for your family and for You lead the way for your family and for your church. It's like if a pastor's your church. It's like if a pastor's your church. It's like if a pastor's listening and you're like how do we get listening and you're like how do we get listening and you're like how do we get our idea around technology? It's like our idea around technology? It's like our idea around technology? It's like you have to be the one to lead in a way you have to be the one to lead in a way you have to be the one to lead in a way that you want your people to respond to that you want your people to respond to that you want your people to respond to this uh a this AI tech age. So, how how this uh a this AI tech age. So, how how this uh a this AI tech age. So, how how are you using it?

are you using it? are you using it? >> But then um but then yeah, we kind of >> But then um but then yeah, we kind of >> But then um but then yeah, we kind of look back and we start blaming Genesis look back and we start blaming Genesis look back and we start blaming Genesis 3, right, Carrie? We start blaming so 3, right, Carrie? We start blaming so 3, right, Carrie? We start blaming so quickly. quickly. quickly. >> And >> And >> And >> you gave me this piece of fruit. >> you gave me this piece of fruit. >> you gave me this piece of fruit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The serpent, he deceived me. >> The serpent, he deceived me. >> The serpent, he deceived me. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> So, do your kids feel like they're >> So, do your kids feel like they're >> So, do your kids feel like they're missing out? Are they ever like, "Well, missing out? Are they ever like, "Well, missing out? Are they ever like, "Well, my friend has a phone. This this is my friend has a phone. This this is my friend has a phone. This this is happening." Like, how do you deal with happening." Like, how do you deal with happening." Like, how do you deal with that as parents? that as parents? that as parents? >> I we don't deal with it yet. 8 and 10. >> I we don't deal with it yet. 8 and 10. >> I we don't deal with it yet. 8 and 10. Um, yeah. My my son will go to a Um, yeah. My my son will go to a Um, yeah. My my son will go to a friend's house and everyone will be friend's house and everyone will be friend's house and everyone will be playing video games and he'll look for a playing video games and he'll look for a playing video games and he'll look for a few minutes and he goes that I'm not few minutes and he goes that I'm not few minutes and he goes that I'm not interested. I Let's go outside. So, interested. I Let's go outside. So, interested. I Let's go outside. So, maybe we just have different kids as maybe we just have different kids as maybe we just have different kids as well. So, I know every situation is well. So, I know every situation is well. So, I know every situation is unique, but um we haven't they haven't unique, but um we haven't they haven't unique, but um we haven't they haven't felt any of that yet. felt any of that yet. felt any of that yet. >> Any other advice? >> Any other advice? >> Any other advice? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, understood. You >> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, understood. You >> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, understood. You know, we'll have the conversation in 5 know, we'll have the conversation in 5 know, we'll have the conversation in 5 years, but that's right. years, but that's right. years, but that's right. >> No, that's good to know. And again, it >> No, that's good to know. And again, it >> No, that's good to know. And again, it is such a common answer to people who is such a common answer to people who is such a common answer to people who are either building the tech or software are either building the tech or software are either building the tech or software engineers or in the industry like you engineers or in the industry like you engineers or in the industry like you are to say actually we're we're going to are to say actually we're we're going to are to say actually we're we're going to go pretty analog right now and you run a go pretty analog right now and you run a go pretty analog right now and you run a virtual company.

virtual company. virtual company. >> Yep. Yeah. And I I think too like as >> Yep. Yeah. And I I think too like as >> Yep. Yeah. And I I think too like as followers of Jesus Christ, followers of Jesus Christ, followers of Jesus Christ, >> we are going to be countercultural now. >> we are going to be countercultural now. >> we are going to be countercultural now. the the flag the the the flag for our the the flag the the the flag for our the the flag the the the flag for our family is never going to be we're the family is never going to be we're the family is never going to be we're the nontech people or we're we're this nontech people or we're we're this nontech people or we're we're this political position or we're any of these political position or we're any of these political position or we're any of these things we it's Jesus always Jesus my things we it's Jesus always Jesus my things we it's Jesus always Jesus my neighbors I want us to think of the neighbors I want us to think of the neighbors I want us to think of the Kelly family you think of Jesus they Kelly family you think of Jesus they Kelly family you think of Jesus they love Jesus they they follow this up love Jesus they they follow this up love Jesus they they follow this up always always um but I also believe always always um but I also believe always always um but I also believe there's arenas into in which we live our there's arenas into in which we live our there's arenas into in which we live our life that you are practicing life that you are practicing life that you are practicing how to come up against conversation. So how to come up against conversation. So how to come up against conversation. So I'm I want to train my kids so that when I'm I want to train my kids so that when I'm I want to train my kids so that when faith comes in conversation and they are faith comes in conversation and they are faith comes in conversation and they are viewed differently and odd or strange viewed differently and odd or strange viewed differently and odd or strange cuz you follow this guy who died and cuz you follow this guy who died and cuz you follow this guy who died and claim to come back to life and all these claim to come back to life and all these claim to come back to life and all these things. It's like actually that's a things. It's like actually that's a things. It's like actually that's a muscle I've been practicing because in muscle I've been practicing because in muscle I've been practicing because in this technology age we're a little this technology age we're a little this technology age we're a little counter. I think some of those things counter. I think some of those things counter. I think some of those things are are really valuable. As a side note, are are really valuable. As a side note, are are really valuable. As a side note, fasting I think is one of the most fasting I think is one of the most fasting I think is one of the most powerful practices we can follow as a powerful practices we can follow as a powerful practices we can follow as a counter practice in the in in this counter practice in the in in this counter practice in the in in this moment for one for many reasons, but one moment for one for many reasons, but one moment for one for many reasons, but one of them is cuz you practice suffering.

of them is cuz you practice suffering. of them is cuz you practice suffering. You know, you actually are training your You know, you actually are training your You know, you actually are training your body to respond in prayer and so that body to respond in prayer and so that body to respond in prayer and so that when difficulty comes in the future, you when difficulty comes in the future, you when difficulty comes in the future, you respond in prayer. And I think you know respond in prayer. And I think you know respond in prayer. And I think you know it's like uh I care I had I was on an AI it's like uh I care I had I was on an AI it's like uh I care I had I was on an AI panel at an event maybe like six months panel at an event maybe like six months panel at an event maybe like six months ago and someone says they go can you ago and someone says they go can you ago and someone says they go can you give some sort of like pathy phrase to give some sort of like pathy phrase to give some sort of like pathy phrase to help us right now in this moment. I'm help us right now in this moment. I'm help us right now in this moment. I'm like I don't like py phrases. I want like I don't like py phrases. I want like I don't like py phrases. I want depth and like let's talk it through and depth and like let's talk it through and depth and like let's talk it through and think it through. But then I was like think it through. But then I was like think it through. But then I was like actually I think I got one you know and actually I think I got one you know and actually I think I got one you know and so I said I said you know what I think so I said I said you know what I think so I said I said you know what I think what we need to do in this moment is to what we need to do in this moment is to what we need to do in this moment is to pray before we prompt. pray before we prompt. pray before we prompt. And the whole idea is when you have a And the whole idea is when you have a And the whole idea is when you have a posture of prayer you are putting God in posture of prayer you are putting God in posture of prayer you are putting God in authority. authority. authority. And when you really anchor ourselves in And when you really anchor ourselves in And when you really anchor ourselves in the counterwe of Jesus, the counterwe of Jesus, the counterwe of Jesus, that's how we're preparing ourselves for that's how we're preparing ourselves for that's how we're preparing ourselves for this technological world that might feel this technological world that might feel this technological world that might feel very dominated by AI and relationship.

very dominated by AI and relationship. very dominated by AI and relationship. And we've got to do what we can for the And we've got to do what we can for the And we've got to do what we can for the builders and pray for the builders and builders and pray for the builders and builders and pray for the builders and invest and disciple them. Yes. But us as invest and disciple them. Yes. But us as invest and disciple them. Yes. But us as kind of everyday users of this, I think kind of everyday users of this, I think kind of everyday users of this, I think the best thing we can do is not a sexy the best thing we can do is not a sexy the best thing we can do is not a sexy answer, which is the ways of Jesus that answer, which is the ways of Jesus that answer, which is the ways of Jesus that are countercultural, are countercultural, are countercultural, that are um uh that the world will look that are um uh that the world will look that are um uh that the world will look at us and go, "That is a strange way." at us and go, "That is a strange way." at us and go, "That is a strange way." And you're like, "Yep, And you're like, "Yep, And you're like, "Yep, it's I I I am following Jesus." And a it's I I I am following Jesus." And a it's I I I am following Jesus." And a lot of what he lays out to the world uh lot of what he lays out to the world uh lot of what he lays out to the world uh will look counter and different. we will look counter and different. we will look counter and different. we almost see developing. We're going to almost see developing. We're going to almost see developing. We're going to have a conversation soon with Pete have a conversation soon with Pete have a conversation soon with Pete Scazero again and I've been talking to Scazero again and I've been talking to Scazero again and I've been talking to Pete and John Mark Comr who's been on Pete and John Mark Comr who's been on Pete and John Mark Comr who's been on the podcast a few times over the last the podcast a few times over the last the podcast a few times over the last few years of almost a neoasticism, few years of almost a neoasticism, few years of almost a neoasticism, almost a counter cultural approach. And almost a counter cultural approach. And almost a counter cultural approach. And it's not that technology it's not that technology it's not that technology is all bad. It can be a helpful tool, is all bad. It can be a helpful tool, is all bad. It can be a helpful tool, but it is seductive and it can become but it is seductive and it can become but it is seductive and it can become godlike if we're not careful. One of the godlike if we're not careful. One of the godlike if we're not careful. One of the things you and I had coffee uh before we things you and I had coffee uh before we things you and I had coffee uh before we did this conversation did this conversation did this conversation and I was super encouraged and you you and I was super encouraged and you you and I was super encouraged and you you hinted at this earlier to see how many hinted at this earlier to see how many hinted at this earlier to see how many Christians there are in the tech world Christians there are in the tech world Christians there are in the tech world and it's pretty public knowledge that and it's pretty public knowledge that and it's pretty public knowledge that companies like Anthropic which produces companies like Anthropic which produces companies like Anthropic which produces Claude are asking theological questions Claude are asking theological questions Claude are asking theological questions and convening theologians and going to and convening theologians and going to and convening theologians and going to the Vatican and they're asking about

the Vatican and they're asking about the Vatican and they're asking about what are the ethical implications on what are the ethical implications on what are the ethical implications on that front. What are you seeing and what that front. What are you seeing and what that front. What are you seeing and what contribution do you think Christians can contribution do you think Christians can contribution do you think Christians can make to shaping tech for good? make to shaping tech for good? make to shaping tech for good? >> The way we talk about this in our >> The way we talk about this in our >> The way we talk about this in our community of faith tech is we believe community of faith tech is we believe community of faith tech is we believe there's three categories to think about there's three categories to think about there's three categories to think about technology. One is reckless technology technology. One is reckless technology technology. One is reckless technology or you could say reckless AI, or you could say reckless AI, or you could say reckless AI, responsible AI and redemptive AI. And I responsible AI and redemptive AI. And I responsible AI and redemptive AI. And I think the way of reckless is really this think the way of reckless is really this think the way of reckless is really this extraction. I win, you lose. Let me get extraction. I win, you lose. Let me get extraction. I win, you lose. Let me get everything out of you. I'm in power. You everything out of you. I'm in power. You everything out of you. I'm in power. You know, the purpose is towards self. Um know, the purpose is towards self. Um know, the purpose is towards self. Um >> I think he used uh met as I read the >> I think he used uh met as I read the >> I think he used uh met as I read the book and it was sort of like move fast book and it was sort of like move fast book and it was sort of like move fast and break things. and break things. and break things. >> That's right. Yep. Yep. And I know the >> That's right. Yep. Yep. And I know the >> That's right. Yep. Yep. And I know the posture behind that when it started was posture behind that when it started was posture behind that when it started was hey there is some institutional hey there is some institutional hey there is some institutional structures that are unhealthy. Let's try structures that are unhealthy. Let's try structures that are unhealthy. Let's try to break those down and do it do it to break those down and do it do it to break those down and do it do it differently. So I I I get that posture differently. So I I I get that posture differently. So I I I get that posture but it it is a reckless posture of just but it it is a reckless posture of just but it it is a reckless posture of just disregard for the impact to which we're disregard for the impact to which we're disregard for the impact to which we're making. So I think responsible making. So I think responsible making. So I think responsible technology is a better better way. It's technology is a better better way. It's technology is a better better way. It's towards human flourishing. It's towards towards human flourishing. It's towards towards human flourishing. It's towards um equality. How do we be equal as um equality. How do we be equal as um equality. How do we be equal as people? And so I think there's good people? And so I think there's good people? And so I think there's good elements of that. Um but ultimately I elements of that. Um but ultimately I elements of that. Um but ultimately I think the way of Jesus is a redemptive think the way of Jesus is a redemptive think the way of Jesus is a redemptive view. this counter view which is you view. this counter view which is you view. this counter view which is you know I will give up power and control I

know I will give up power and control I know I will give up power and control I will uh build differently so for example will uh build differently so for example will uh build differently so for example Carrie our our communities so we have Carrie our our communities so we have Carrie our our communities so we have these 55 cities in each community these 55 cities in each community these 55 cities in each community there's a portion of each community that there's a portion of each community that there's a portion of each community that are actually creating technology to are actually creating technology to are actually creating technology to advance the great commission and advance advance the great commission and advance advance the great commission and advance help churches uh um help ministries and help churches uh um help ministries and help churches uh um help ministries and we're teaching them a particular way of we're teaching them a particular way of we're teaching them a particular way of creating creating creating technology. So, it's disciplehip technology. So, it's disciplehip technology. So, it's disciplehip formation along the path of building formation along the path of building formation along the path of building technology that advances the good news technology that advances the good news technology that advances the good news of Jesus. The first thing we get all of of Jesus. The first thing we get all of of Jesus. The first thing we get all of our builders to do is a practice of our builders to do is a practice of our builders to do is a practice of lament. lament. lament. So, you're trying to solve this problem. So, you're trying to solve this problem. So, you're trying to solve this problem. Don't just empathy is is good, but it's Don't just empathy is is good, but it's Don't just empathy is is good, but it's actually not as profound as a lament. actually not as profound as a lament. actually not as profound as a lament. Like you look at Ne the story of Like you look at Ne the story of Like you look at Ne the story of Nehemiah, you look at Lamentations, you Nehemiah, you look at Lamentations, you Nehemiah, you look at Lamentations, you um you look at the way Isaiah um there's um you look at the way Isaiah um there's um you look at the way Isaiah um there's there's so many examples of a profound there's so many examples of a profound there's so many examples of a profound like what role am I playing in advancing like what role am I playing in advancing like what role am I playing in advancing this problem forward. I think that's this problem forward. I think that's this problem forward. I think that's actually a good pause right now in this actually a good pause right now in this actually a good pause right now in this AI moment which is so much of it feels AI moment which is so much of it feels AI moment which is so much of it feels like well it's that their person's like well it's that their person's like well it's that their person's problem. everyone else is building this problem. everyone else is building this problem. everyone else is building this AI that's going to destroy humanity and AI that's going to destroy humanity and AI that's going to destroy humanity and yet we're then using chat GPT on a daily yet we're then using chat GPT on a daily yet we're then using chat GPT on a daily basis to know research things and you're basis to know research things and you're basis to know research things and you're like well okay um Jesus has a lot to say like well okay um Jesus has a lot to say like well okay um Jesus has a lot to say about hypocrisy which I think had for about hypocrisy which I think had for about hypocrisy which I think had for good reason for good reason for good reason for >> tech companies are bad but my use of

>> tech companies are bad but my use of >> tech companies are bad but my use of technology is good technology is good technology is good >> that's right there so I just think the >> that's right there so I just think the >> that's right there so I just think the calling right now is a a different way calling right now is a a different way calling right now is a a different way of both viewing of both viewing of both viewing this and then a different way of of of this and then a different way of of of this and then a different way of of of building it, I think. And and so part of building it, I think. And and so part of building it, I think. And and so part of our thesis with Fateic 2 has been to see our thesis with Fateic 2 has been to see our thesis with Fateic 2 has been to see a Jesus revival awakened in and through a Jesus revival awakened in and through a Jesus revival awakened in and through technology all over the world. And and I technology all over the world. And and I technology all over the world. And and I know there's lots of baggage. You've know there's lots of baggage. You've know there's lots of baggage. You've done a lot of research on revival and done a lot of research on revival and done a lot of research on revival and what's happening in our society right what's happening in our society right what's happening in our society right now. on. So there's that's a whole now. on. So there's that's a whole now. on. So there's that's a whole conversation I would love to have with conversation I would love to have with conversation I would love to have with you at some point, but I deeply believe you at some point, but I deeply believe you at some point, but I deeply believe that if we built differently and you saw that if we built differently and you saw that if we built differently and you saw a move of God in Silicon Valley or in a move of God in Silicon Valley or in a move of God in Silicon Valley or in the world of technology, I think the world of technology, I think the world of technology, I think something incredible could happen. Um, something incredible could happen. Um, something incredible could happen. Um, and someone once said to me like a and someone once said to me like a and someone once said to me like a authentic revival at Google would never authentic revival at Google would never authentic revival at Google would never happen. happen. happen. And I just softly remind them like, you And I just softly remind them like, you And I just softly remind them like, you believe Jesus died, was dead for three believe Jesus died, was dead for three believe Jesus died, was dead for three days, and then came back to life. That's days, and then came back to life. That's days, and then came back to life. That's less believable than a move of God less believable than a move of God less believable than a move of God within one of the most dominant tech within one of the most dominant tech within one of the most dominant tech companies in society. Um, companies in society. Um, companies in society. Um, >> I went on a few tangents there on you, >> I went on a few tangents there on you, >> I went on a few tangents there on you, but but but >> this is good. What is the killer app >> this is good. What is the killer app >> this is good. What is the killer app trap? I think that that is very trap? I think that that is very trap? I think that that is very interesting for a lot of us because even interesting for a lot of us because even interesting for a lot of us because even again the vast majority of people again the vast majority of people again the vast majority of people listening to this podcast are not in listening to this podcast are not in listening to this podcast are not in tech but we're all building something tech but we're all building something tech but we're all building something and I think the trap applies to and I think the trap applies to and I think the trap applies to technology but it probably

technology but it probably technology but it probably applies to the idoltor inside applies to the idoltor inside applies to the idoltor inside me and all of us. What's the killer app me and all of us. What's the killer app me and all of us. What's the killer app trap? It's the belief that we can trap? It's the belief that we can trap? It's the belief that we can engineer our way towards salvation. And engineer our way towards salvation. And engineer our way towards salvation. And the idea is that if I just can get the the idea is that if I just can get the the idea is that if I just can get the right tool, if I can just build uh get right tool, if I can just build uh get right tool, if I can just build uh get the right sermon, if I can just get the the right sermon, if I can just get the the right sermon, if I can just get the right technology that can make right technology that can make right technology that can make communication perfect for our community, communication perfect for our community, communication perfect for our community, if I can just get the right X, if I can just get the right X, if I can just get the right X, >> then we start believing that if you get >> then we start believing that if you get >> then we start believing that if you get that thing, it will solve all of our that thing, it will solve all of our that thing, it will solve all of our problems. Now to the nth degree, the problems. Now to the nth degree, the problems. Now to the nth degree, the ultimate killer app trap can potentially ultimate killer app trap can potentially ultimate killer app trap can potentially be artificial intelligence where we be artificial intelligence where we be artificial intelligence where we believe it'll solve all of our problems. believe it'll solve all of our problems. believe it'll solve all of our problems. You know, transhumanism, we can live You know, transhumanism, we can live You know, transhumanism, we can live forever. All of these things start forever. All of these things start forever. All of these things start coming up. But it is is such a coming up. But it is is such a coming up. But it is is such a fundamental biblical concept too, which fundamental biblical concept too, which fundamental biblical concept too, which is that when we try to replace God, and is that when we try to replace God, and is that when we try to replace God, and I and I get it. Most of us on this call I and I get it. Most of us on this call I and I get it. Most of us on this call are probably going, "Well, I don't are probably going, "Well, I don't are probably going, "Well, I don't believe that. That's that's garbage."

believe that. That's that's garbage." believe that. That's that's garbage." But it's in the small ways as well where But it's in the small ways as well where But it's in the small ways as well where we set up our systems, our environments, we set up our systems, our environments, we set up our systems, our environments, our culture, our people, our the our use our culture, our people, our the our use our culture, our people, our the our use of technology in a way that we think if of technology in a way that we think if of technology in a way that we think if we can just get us over the edge on we can just get us over the edge on we can just get us over the edge on this, everything will be fine. this, everything will be fine. this, everything will be fine. >> This next year, this next series, this >> This next year, this next series, this >> This next year, this next series, this next location, this next next location, this next next location, this next >> man, we've all fallen in that trap >> man, we've all fallen in that trap >> man, we've all fallen in that trap before. And it's another form of before. And it's another form of before. And it's another form of idolatry, right? It's a It's a I mean, idolatry, right? It's a It's a I mean, idolatry, right? It's a It's a I mean, maybe you do need a new hire. Maybe maybe you do need a new hire. Maybe maybe you do need a new hire. Maybe maybe this app can make some difference, maybe this app can make some difference, maybe this app can make some difference, but it's not going to solve what only but it's not going to solve what only but it's not going to solve what only God can solve. I think that's really God can solve. I think that's really God can solve. I think that's really really helpful. Um, really helpful. Um, really helpful. Um, transhumanism, we haven't touched on transhumanism, we haven't touched on transhumanism, we haven't touched on that a lot in this series so far. This that a lot in this series so far. This that a lot in this series so far. This is another and I mean as soon as people is another and I mean as soon as people is another and I mean as soon as people hear it it's a big term but like you hear it it's a big term but like you hear it it's a big term but like you know from neural links and Elon Musk is know from neural links and Elon Musk is know from neural links and Elon Musk is working on neural links where you kind working on neural links where you kind working on neural links where you kind of meld the mand and machine and and of meld the mand and machine and and of meld the mand and machine and and again this is not sci-fi this is again this is not sci-fi this is again this is not sci-fi this is happening right now to all the happening right now to all the happening right now to all the biohacking so if you're getting your biohacking so if you're getting your biohacking so if you're getting your protein and your creatine and um you protein and your creatine and um you protein and your creatine and um you know you're I listen to some of these know you're I listen to some of these know you're I listen to some of these podcasts where they interview health podcasts where they interview health podcasts where they interview health experts you have to do air squats every experts you have to do air squats every experts you have to do air squats every hour on the or you're going to get hour on the or you're going to get hour on the or you're going to get dementia.

dementia. dementia. >> You don't do that. >> You don't do that. >> You don't do that. >> You know, doesn't it show doesn't it >> You know, doesn't it show doesn't it >> You know, doesn't it show doesn't it show that I don't do that, [laughter] show that I don't do that, [laughter] show that I don't do that, [laughter] James? James? James? >> But like we're so into this fear of >> But like we're so into this fear of >> But like we're so into this fear of death and this fear of decline. Let's death and this fear of decline. Let's death and this fear of decline. Let's let's talk about AI and transhumanism let's talk about AI and transhumanism let's talk about AI and transhumanism and what's underneath that because while and what's underneath that because while and what's underneath that because while we're on the subject of idolatry, I we're on the subject of idolatry, I we're on the subject of idolatry, I think Whoop, there it is again. think Whoop, there it is again. think Whoop, there it is again. >> Yeah. Honestly, I love that a growing >> Yeah. Honestly, I love that a growing >> Yeah. Honestly, I love that a growing theme for our conversation carries theme for our conversation carries theme for our conversation carries Genesis 3 because Genesis 3 because Genesis 3 because >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like you go back there and >> Like you go back there and >> Like you go back there and you know the the devil deceives. He is you know the the devil deceives. He is you know the the devil deceives. He is very good. [snorts] very good at very good. [snorts] very good at very good. [snorts] very good at deceiving us to point us away from Jesus deceiving us to point us away from Jesus deceiving us to point us away from Jesus to believe that if to believe that if to believe that if if we can just live longer, look better if we can just live longer, look better if we can just live longer, look better that this will go well that everything that this will go well that everything that this will go well that everything will be fine. man. And you go back to will be fine. man. And you go back to will be fine. man. And you go back to Genesis 3 and there is this deep sense Genesis 3 and there is this deep sense Genesis 3 and there is this deep sense of fear, a deep sense of blaming, of fear, a deep sense of blaming, of fear, a deep sense of blaming, putting others, but like I'm scared to putting others, but like I'm scared to putting others, but like I'm scared to uh to see God, you know, walking in the uh to see God, you know, walking in the uh to see God, you know, walking in the cool of the day. And so I ran and I hid cool of the day. And so I ran and I hid cool of the day. And so I ran and I hid and I I got away from him because he and I I got away from him because he and I I got away from him because he caught me in the sin. And I just think caught me in the sin. And I just think caught me in the sin. And I just think the the heartbeat of transhumanism the the heartbeat of transhumanism the the heartbeat of transhumanism is really this belief that we can be is really this belief that we can be is really this belief that we can be like God and we can be our own God and

like God and we can be our own God and like God and we can be our own God and >> be power. [laughter] >> be power. [laughter] >> be power. [laughter] >> It's going there. >> It's going there. >> It's going there. >> Yep. Yep. And and and I and I I want to >> Yep. Yep. And and and I and I I want to >> Yep. Yep. And and and I and I I want to have a lot of compassion, sympathy. I've have a lot of compassion, sympathy. I've have a lot of compassion, sympathy. I've got um you know brothers of mine that got um you know brothers of mine that got um you know brothers of mine that are on trajectories right now where it's are on trajectories right now where it's are on trajectories right now where it's like I can't look worse. I can't get like I can't look worse. I can't get like I can't look worse. I can't get wrinkles. I can't I can't. wrinkles. I can't I can't. wrinkles. I can't I can't. >> And um I get that when if what you're >> And um I get that when if what you're >> And um I get that when if what you're reading constantly on your reels is, you reading constantly on your reels is, you reading constantly on your reels is, you know, that you look bad if you get know, that you look bad if you get know, that you look bad if you get wrinkles or you look bad if you get this wrinkles or you look bad if you get this wrinkles or you look bad if you get this or you look bad. So there's a enormous or you look bad. So there's a enormous or you look bad. So there's a enormous amount of compassion and grace and mercy amount of compassion and grace and mercy amount of compassion and grace and mercy within my heart in this domain. within my heart in this domain. within my heart in this domain. But this is why the truth of the gospel But this is why the truth of the gospel But this is why the truth of the gospel rings true and will ring true always is rings true and will ring true always is rings true and will ring true always is that he defines who we are and says you that he defines who we are and says you that he defines who we are and says you are my image bearers to the world. which are my image bearers to the world. which are my image bearers to the world. which really is saying that the creator of the really is saying that the creator of the really is saying that the creator of the heavens and earth that is that is worthy heavens and earth that is that is worthy heavens and earth that is that is worthy of our full adoration and attention. He of our full adoration and attention. He of our full adoration and attention. He defines our identity and who we are. And defines our identity and who we are. And defines our identity and who we are. And so as as we try to craft a world that uh so as as we try to craft a world that uh so as as we try to craft a world that uh craft a way for the world to believe craft a way for the world to believe craft a way for the world to believe about us, Jesus says the opposite and he about us, Jesus says the opposite and he about us, Jesus says the opposite and he says stop stop crafting stop believing says stop stop crafting stop believing says stop stop crafting stop believing that you can transcend transcend that you can transcend transcend that you can transcend transcend humanity. I have set up humanity to end

humanity. I have set up humanity to end humanity. I have set up humanity to end certain way and I have set you up for certain way and I have set you up for certain way and I have set you up for limits and it's in those limits you will limits and it's in those limits you will limits and it's in those limits you will find me in its beauty. And find me in its beauty. And find me in its beauty. And [clears throat] so, um, yeah, that's a [clears throat] so, um, yeah, that's a [clears throat] so, um, yeah, that's a little little little >> Roheiser helped me think through that so >> Roheiser helped me think through that so >> Roheiser helped me think through that so much this summer with his book Insane much this summer with his book Insane much this summer with his book Insane for the Light. And we had him on the for the Light. And we had him on the for the Light. And we had him on the podcast, John Mark, and I interviewed podcast, John Mark, and I interviewed podcast, John Mark, and I interviewed him a few months ago, and it was just if him a few months ago, and it was just if him a few months ago, and it was just if you're struggling with that. I mean, you you're struggling with that. I mean, you you're struggling with that. I mean, you know, if it's like no wrinkles, well, know, if it's like no wrinkles, well, know, if it's like no wrinkles, well, that chip sailed a long time ago for me, that chip sailed a long time ago for me, that chip sailed a long time ago for me, so I guess I'm doomed. But, you know, so I guess I'm doomed. But, you know, so I guess I'm doomed. But, you know, when you hear when you hear these um when you hear when you hear these um when you hear when you hear these um people, I think Brian Johnson, you know, people, I think Brian Johnson, you know, people, I think Brian Johnson, you know, who's on a lot of podcasts these days, who's on a lot of podcasts these days, who's on a lot of podcasts these days, he's going to live forever. His mission he's going to live forever. His mission he's going to live forever. His mission every morning is not die. He's 47, but every morning is not die. He's 47, but every morning is not die. He's 47, but says he has the metrics of a 27y old. I says he has the metrics of a 27y old. I says he has the metrics of a 27y old. I just want to ask you a question. I mean, just want to ask you a question. I mean, just want to ask you a question. I mean, I believe I'm going to live forever I believe I'm going to live forever I believe I'm going to live forever because of Christ. But let's pull that because of Christ. But let's pull that because of Christ. But let's pull that aside for a minute. Would you want to aside for a minute. Would you want to aside for a minute. Would you want to live to be 150 or 200? Would you, James? live to be 150 or 200? Would you, James? live to be 150 or 200? Would you, James? Like just humanly speaking?

Like just humanly speaking? Like just humanly speaking? >> I hear you. I'm ready to be with Christ >> I hear you. I'm ready to be with Christ >> I hear you. I'm ready to be with Christ now. My goodness. like now. My goodness. like now. My goodness. like >> but some days I'm like >> but some days I'm like >> but some days I'm like >> I could drop I could drop dead now and I >> I could drop I could drop dead now and I >> I could drop I could drop dead now and I will be fantastic. Like I love my will be fantastic. Like I love my will be fantastic. Like I love my family. I am grateful. Um but golly, I family. I am grateful. Um but golly, I family. I am grateful. Um but golly, I love Jesus and I want to be with him and love Jesus and I want to be with him and love Jesus and I want to be with him and in his presence. And so in his presence. And so in his presence. And so >> I I can't separate the spiritual from >> I I can't separate the spiritual from >> I I can't separate the spiritual from the humanly. So I think there's just so the humanly. So I think there's just so the humanly. So I think there's just so much in me like Paul like I much in me like Paul like I much in me like Paul like I >> I'd rather be with Christ but he has >> I'd rather be with Christ but he has >> I'd rather be with Christ but he has called me here called me here called me here >> for a purpose. So >> for a purpose. So >> for a purpose. So >> that's where I think the call what has >> that's where I think the call what has >> that's where I think the call what has God called me to do so I can do that God called me to do so I can do that God called me to do so I can do that with all that God has called me to for with all that God has called me to for with all that God has called me to for however long he wants me to do it. Now I however long he wants me to do it. Now I however long he wants me to do it. Now I will say this Gary that is an easy will say this Gary that is an easy will say this Gary that is an easy answer probably and for me but so many answer probably and for me but so many answer probably and for me but so many of my brothers and sisters around the of my brothers and sisters around the of my brothers and sisters around the world that are suffering on a daily world that are suffering on a daily world that are suffering on a daily basis and you say do you want to live basis and you say do you want to live basis and you say do you want to live for 150 years like wait for 150 years like wait for 150 years like wait >> no chance you know no chance >> no chance you know no chance >> no chance you know no chance >> and why >> and why >> and why discriminated against for another discriminated against for another discriminated against for another century century century >> no and I think you know to to have some >> no and I think you know to to have some >> no and I think you know to to have some empathy for people who are biohacking empathy for people who are biohacking empathy for people who are biohacking first of all I do believe in health span first of all I do believe in health span first of all I do believe in health span or I've heard it called performance span or I've heard it called performance span or I've heard it called performance span that as far as it depends on me. That's that as far as it depends on me. That's that as far as it depends on me. That's why I went for a bike ride last night.

why I went for a bike ride last night. why I went for a bike ride last night. That's why I'm going to work out, lift That's why I'm going to work out, lift That's why I'm going to work out, lift weights, that's why I'm watching what I weights, that's why I'm watching what I weights, that's why I'm watching what I eat, etc. Like, yeah, I I'd like to have eat, etc. Like, yeah, I I'd like to have eat, etc. Like, yeah, I I'd like to have a reasonable quality of life as far as a reasonable quality of life as far as a reasonable quality of life as far as it depends on me. But also realize it depends on me. But also realize it depends on me. But also realize there's a lot that doesn't depend on me. there's a lot that doesn't depend on me. there's a lot that doesn't depend on me. There's a lot that's genetics. You can There's a lot that's genetics. You can There's a lot that's genetics. You can be in an accident. You can get some rare be in an accident. You can get some rare be in an accident. You can get some rare disease. You know, there's a lot that disease. You know, there's a lot that disease. You know, there's a lot that can't be explained. But if I wasn't a can't be explained. But if I wasn't a can't be explained. But if I wasn't a Christian and this life was all I knew, Christian and this life was all I knew, Christian and this life was all I knew, I could see the allure of never wanting I could see the allure of never wanting I could see the allure of never wanting to age, of being forever young. I mean, to age, of being forever young. I mean, to age, of being forever young. I mean, the fountain of youth has been around the fountain of youth has been around the fountain of youth has been around for a few centuries before we came onto for a few centuries before we came onto for a few centuries before we came onto the planet. And this has been an eternal the planet. And this has been an eternal the planet. And this has been an eternal quest for humanity. Uh, and now we seem quest for humanity. Uh, and now we seem quest for humanity. Uh, and now we seem to have some science and AI fueling it. to have some science and AI fueling it. to have some science and AI fueling it. But yeah, it's just not appealing to me But yeah, it's just not appealing to me But yeah, it's just not appealing to me in the least. It's like give me my 70 or in the least. It's like give me my 70 or in the least. It's like give me my 70 or 80 years or whatever it is and I'll be 80 years or whatever it is and I'll be 80 years or whatever it is and I'll be very grateful and like you say some days very grateful and like you say some days very grateful and like you say some days I I wake up and think okay I I wake up and think okay I I wake up and think okay >> yeah this is this is this can be hard.

>> yeah this is this is this can be hard. >> yeah this is this is this can be hard. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Um, Um, Um, >> how let's talk there's man so much we >> how let's talk there's man so much we >> how let's talk there's man so much we could talk about could talk about could talk about recklessness recklessness recklessness when you think about the labs Sam when you think about the labs Sam when you think about the labs Sam Alman's potential breaks which will Alman's potential breaks which will Alman's potential breaks which will probably be you know reversed by the probably be you know reversed by the probably be you know reversed by the time this episode airs time this episode airs time this episode airs notwithstanding we've got a race between notwithstanding we've got a race between notwithstanding we've got a race between China and the United States which is one China and the United States which is one China and the United States which is one of the reasons America is like well if of the reasons America is like well if of the reasons America is like well if we slow down to try to make this safer we slow down to try to make this safer we slow down to try to make this safer more ethical more understandable. more ethical more understandable. more ethical more understandable. China's going to win and then we all China's going to win and then we all China's going to win and then we all serve China. And China's like, "Well, if serve China. And China's like, "Well, if serve China. And China's like, "Well, if we slow down, America's going to win and we slow down, America's going to win and we slow down, America's going to win and we all serve America." we all serve America." we all serve America." >> So recklessness. What can Christians do? >> So recklessness. What can Christians do? >> So recklessness. What can Christians do? I mean, if someone's concerned about I mean, if someone's concerned about I mean, if someone's concerned about anything from data centers to uh the anything from data centers to uh the anything from data centers to uh the impact of AI to creating this technology impact of AI to creating this technology impact of AI to creating this technology that we don't fully understand. I mean, that we don't fully understand. I mean, that we don't fully understand. I mean, this is what you do. You try to help this is what you do. You try to help this is what you do. You try to help people developing this people developing this people developing this >> figure out how to make a difference. So, >> figure out how to make a difference. So, >> figure out how to make a difference. So, are we just powerless like ordinary are we just powerless like ordinary are we just powerless like ordinary people? What do we do?

people? What do we do? people? What do we do? >> Well, I I I would encourage um one of my >> Well, I I I would encourage um one of my >> Well, I I I would encourage um one of my dearest friends, he leads a nonprofit dearest friends, he leads a nonprofit dearest friends, he leads a nonprofit called Arosia, which is creation care called Arosia, which is creation care called Arosia, which is creation care and how do we uh care for the creation and how do we uh care for the creation and how do we uh care for the creation that God's given us? And that God's given us? And that God's given us? And he's trying to go, okay, in the domain he's trying to go, okay, in the domain he's trying to go, okay, in the domain to which God has called me to, how is to which God has called me to, how is to which God has called me to, how is this world of artificial intelligence this world of artificial intelligence this world of artificial intelligence impacting it and affecting it? and what impacting it and affecting it? and what impacting it and affecting it? and what is a biblical posture towards it. And so is a biblical posture towards it. And so is a biblical posture towards it. And so I'd say like if if we all kind of said, I'd say like if if we all kind of said, I'd say like if if we all kind of said, "Okay, the only way forward is Elon Musk "Okay, the only way forward is Elon Musk "Okay, the only way forward is Elon Musk converting to Jesus too," which I converting to Jesus too," which I converting to Jesus too," which I actually pray for on a regular basis. I actually pray for on a regular basis. I actually pray for on a regular basis. I think that would be incredible. But I'm think that would be incredible. But I'm think that would be incredible. But I'm not banking my hope of the world not banking my hope of the world not banking my hope of the world >> on that. Um, but I'm praying for that. I >> on that. Um, but I'm praying for that. I >> on that. Um, but I'm praying for that. I think all God has called all of us with think all God has called all of us with think all God has called all of us with unique abilities, talents, and specific unique abilities, talents, and specific unique abilities, talents, and specific callings in this world. You know, you callings in this world. You know, you callings in this world. You know, you you had a you had a you have a legal you had a you had a you have a legal you had a you had a you have a legal background, Carrie, right? In that background, Carrie, right? In that background, Carrie, right? In that season in law, you were starting to ask season in law, you were starting to ask season in law, you were starting to ask questions. You and I chat about this.

questions. You and I chat about this. questions. You and I chat about this. How does my faith and my legal calling How does my faith and my legal calling How does my faith and my legal calling in this season connect to each other? in this season connect to each other? in this season connect to each other? Where are the fellow Christians that I Where are the fellow Christians that I Where are the fellow Christians that I can wrestle this through with and and can wrestle this through with and and can wrestle this through with and and build a proper way of of thinking about build a proper way of of thinking about build a proper way of of thinking about law from a biblical perspective? I think law from a biblical perspective? I think law from a biblical perspective? I think I would encourage many and if anyone is I would encourage many and if anyone is I would encourage many and if anyone is thinking about this, please reach out. thinking about this, please reach out. thinking about this, please reach out. How do you take your domain to which How do you take your domain to which How do you take your domain to which God's called you to, whether it is God's called you to, whether it is God's called you to, whether it is legal, business, running a business, legal, business, running a business, legal, business, running a business, leading a church, um you are a leading a church, um you are a leading a church, um you are a machinist, uh you're working on a line, machinist, uh you're working on a line, machinist, uh you're working on a line, whatever that role is for you to take a whatever that role is for you to take a whatever that role is for you to take a pause. If you've made it this far in the pause. If you've made it this far in the pause. If you've made it this far in the podcast, there's some level of interest podcast, there's some level of interest podcast, there's some level of interest in the way AI interacts with your life. in the way AI interacts with your life. in the way AI interacts with your life. is tried to think about the positive and is tried to think about the positive and is tried to think about the positive and negative implications of artificial negative implications of artificial negative implications of artificial intelligence on the domain to which intelligence on the domain to which intelligence on the domain to which God's called you to and then seek out a God's called you to and then seek out a God's called you to and then seek out a biblical theological biblical theological biblical theological uh grounding with other followers of uh grounding with other followers of uh grounding with other followers of Jesus. So you do it as a disciplehip Jesus. So you do it as a disciplehip Jesus. So you do it as a disciplehip journey. And I think that if we lean journey. And I think that if we lean journey. And I think that if we lean into that domain to which God called us into that domain to which God called us into that domain to which God called us to, that's where I think we enact to, that's where I think we enact to, that's where I think we enact change. And that's the power God's given change. And that's the power God's given change. And that's the power God's given us. Well, James, I'm glad that this us. Well, James, I'm glad that this us. Well, James, I'm glad that this isn't futile. I think the parenting isn't futile. I think the parenting isn't futile. I think the parenting piece really helped me today. Is there piece really helped me today. Is there piece really helped me today. Is there any last thought you've got? And if not, any last thought you've got? And if not, any last thought you've got? And if not, where would you direct people if they where would you direct people if they where would you direct people if they want to learn more about Faith Tech and want to learn more about Faith Tech and want to learn more about Faith Tech and your work and trying to influence the your work and trying to influence the your work and trying to influence the people who are building this, help the people who are building this, help the people who are building this, help the people, disciple the people who are

people, disciple the people who are people, disciple the people who are building this? building this? building this? >> Yeah. I I mean, if I'm an elder at our >> Yeah. I I mean, if I'm an elder at our >> Yeah. I I mean, if I'm an elder at our church, pastors, I love pastors. You church, pastors, I love pastors. You church, pastors, I love pastors. You have a difficult job and God's called have a difficult job and God's called have a difficult job and God's called you to a local community and technology you to a local community and technology you to a local community and technology is very very global and impacts everyone is very very global and impacts everyone is very very global and impacts everyone locally and globally. So first just hear locally and globally. So first just hear locally and globally. So first just hear me say uh um God has called you for this me say uh um God has called you for this me say uh um God has called you for this moment to do what he has called you to moment to do what he has called you to moment to do what he has called you to do best. Prophet, priest, king. Point do best. Prophet, priest, king. Point do best. Prophet, priest, king. Point people to the word of God. Point people people to the word of God. Point people people to the word of God. Point people to his uh his incredible character, his to his uh his incredible character, his to his uh his incredible character, his attributes. Um that is our attributes. Um that is our attributes. Um that is our responsibility. I think that's the main responsibility. I think that's the main responsibility. I think that's the main responsibility we can do is point people responsibility we can do is point people responsibility we can do is point people to Jesus. Um for faith tech we just to Jesus. Um for faith tech we just to Jesus. Um for faith tech we just wrote a playbook 2.0 on trying to wrote a playbook 2.0 on trying to wrote a playbook 2.0 on trying to wrestle through all of the how do we wrestle through all of the how do we wrestle through all of the how do we build differently? How do we think about build differently? How do we think about build differently? How do we think about technology? What are the allures uh that technology? What are the allures uh that technology? What are the allures uh that sits underneath and beneath technology? sits underneath and beneath technology? sits underneath and beneath technology? What's a theological framework we can What's a theological framework we can What's a theological framework we can bring to bear on this technological age?

bring to bear on this technological age? bring to bear on this technological age? It's a very quick short read. So It's a very quick short read. So It's a very quick short read. So faith.com you'll see the resources, faith.com you'll see the resources, faith.com you'll see the resources, you'll see the playbook. Um you can see you'll see the playbook. Um you can see you'll see the playbook. Um you can see it all online. I encourage that. Um it all online. I encourage that. Um it all online. I encourage that. Um Carrie as just a get get some grounding. Carrie as just a get get some grounding. Carrie as just a get get some grounding. Um and so there's that. And I actually Um and so there's that. And I actually Um and so there's that. And I actually would say and um I I think the book you would say and um I I think the book you would say and um I I think the book you just gave me two days ago that I spent just gave me two days ago that I spent just gave me two days ago that I spent an hour and a half on an hour and a half on an hour and a half on >> coffee. Yeah. >> coffee. Yeah. >> coffee. Yeah. >> Um I appreciate Carrie that you're >> Um I appreciate Carrie that you're >> Um I appreciate Carrie that you're trying to lay out some core like what is trying to lay out some core like what is trying to lay out some core like what is tech? What is AI? what how do we even tech? What is AI? what how do we even tech? What is AI? what how do we even think about it and then what is the think about it and then what is the think about it and then what is the practical things we can do next steps. practical things we can do next steps. practical things we can do next steps. Um I that's a good I don't think there's Um I that's a good I don't think there's Um I that's a good I don't think there's been too many resources like that in our been too many resources like that in our been too many resources like that in our space and so I appreciate you leaning space and so I appreciate you leaning space and so I appreciate you leaning into that and so I think that'll be good into that and so I think that'll be good into that and so I think that'll be good when that comes out too. when that comes out too. when that comes out too. >> Well thank you so much James really >> Well thank you so much James really >> Well thank you so much James really appreciated our time together today and appreciated our time together today and appreciated our time together today and I know a lot of listeners did too. Thank I know a lot of listeners did too. Thank I know a lot of listeners did too. Thank you. you. you. >> Thanks Gary. >> Thanks Gary. >> Thanks Gary. >> Well I hope you enjoyed that. I really >> Well I hope you enjoyed that. I really >> Well I hope you enjoyed that. I really appreciated his perspective on parenting appreciated his perspective on parenting appreciated his perspective on parenting and I have seen that trend. The more you and I have seen that trend. The more you and I have seen that trend. The more you know about tech, the less likely you are know about tech, the less likely you are know about tech, the less likely you are to expose your kids to it. I think to expose your kids to it. I think to expose your kids to it. I think that's a really important principle and that's a really important principle and that's a really important principle and the good news is that as a church the good news is that as a church the good news is that as a church leader, you kind of know what to do.

leader, you kind of know what to do. leader, you kind of know what to do. That's what AI in the future church is That's what AI in the future church is That's what AI in the future church is all about. This is launch day. Super all about. This is launch day. Super all about. This is launch day. Super excited. That is if you're watching and excited. That is if you're watching and excited. That is if you're watching and and listening on uh September 15th when and listening on uh September 15th when and listening on uh September 15th when this podcast comes out. And this is this podcast comes out. And this is this podcast comes out. And this is really a ministry manual that I hope is really a ministry manual that I hope is really a ministry manual that I hope is going to help you make a difference and going to help you make a difference and going to help you make a difference and minister to people in the fallout of AI, minister to people in the fallout of AI, minister to people in the fallout of AI, whatever that ends up looking like. And whatever that ends up looking like. And whatever that ends up looking like. And if there isn't much of a fallout, which if there isn't much of a fallout, which if there isn't much of a fallout, which I think there probably will be, guess I think there probably will be, guess I think there probably will be, guess what? You got a stronger church because what? You got a stronger church because what? You got a stronger church because you're going to build up community, you're going to build up community, you're going to build up community, you're going to prepare, uh you're going you're going to prepare, uh you're going you're going to prepare, uh you're going to build up some resources, and you're to build up some resources, and you're to build up some resources, and you're going to fortify your integrity. You do going to fortify your integrity. You do going to fortify your integrity. You do those things, what do you have? A those things, what do you have? A those things, what do you have? A stronger church, a greater witness, stronger church, a greater witness, stronger church, a greater witness, better disciplehip. And if the expected better disciplehip. And if the expected better disciplehip. And if the expected disruption unfolds like I think it disruption unfolds like I think it disruption unfolds like I think it might, well then you're going to be might, well then you're going to be might, well then you're going to be ready for it. So we've got other ready for it. So we've got other ready for it. So we've got other episodes coming up that I'm very excited episodes coming up that I'm very excited episodes coming up that I'm very excited about coming up. We have Annie Fown, about coming up. We have Annie Fown, about coming up. We have Annie Fown, Seth Goden, my wife Tony Nuhof who is Seth Goden, my wife Tony Nuhof who is Seth Goden, my wife Tony Nuhof who is awesome and Voscamp John Ortberg is back awesome and Voscamp John Ortberg is back awesome and Voscamp John Ortberg is back again and a whole lot more. If you again and a whole lot more. If you again and a whole lot more. If you subscribe or follow wherever you're subscribe or follow wherever you're subscribe or follow wherever you're watching or listening, you'll never miss watching or listening, you'll never miss watching or listening, you'll never miss an episode. And in the meantime, we got an episode. And in the meantime, we got an episode. And in the meantime, we got show notes for you. You can join over show notes for you. You can join over show notes for you. You can join over 23,000 other leaders in the art of 23,000 other leaders in the art of 23,000 other leaders in the art of leadership academy. Just go and join for leadership academy. Just go and join for leadership academy. Just go and join for free today at the art of free today at the art of free today at the art of leadershipacademy.com.

leadershipacademy.com. leadershipacademy.com. If this episode has been helpful to you, If this episode has been helpful to you, If this episode has been helpful to you, share it with a friend. Share it with uh share it with a friend. Share it with uh share it with a friend. Share it with uh another parent who's trying to figure another parent who's trying to figure another parent who's trying to figure this out, maybe with someone on your this out, maybe with someone on your this out, maybe with someone on your team. Drop it in a Slack channel. Email team. Drop it in a Slack channel. Email team. Drop it in a Slack channel. Email it to somebody that you care about. And it to somebody that you care about. And it to somebody that you care about. And um man, thanks so much for making this um man, thanks so much for making this um man, thanks so much for making this podcast what it is. It is a dream to do podcast what it is. It is a dream to do podcast what it is. It is a dream to do it with you. And I want to thank all of it with you. And I want to thank all of it with you. And I want to thank all of you new listeners and longtime listeners you new listeners and longtime listeners you new listeners and longtime listeners alike. Uh we'll be back and we'll do alike. Uh we'll be back and we'll do alike. Uh we'll be back and we'll do this again next time. And I hope our this again next time. And I hope our this again next time. And I hope our time together today has helped you time together today has helped you time together today has helped you identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.