Weary or Wounded? The Real Reason Pastors Are Struggling with Glenn Packiam

Are you weary or are you wounded? Are you weary or are you wounded? Because those are not the same thing. Because those are not the same thing. Because those are not the same thing. Those are not the same thing. And and Those are not the same thing. And and Those are not the same thing. And and and if if you are weary, then okay, and if if you are weary, then okay, and if if you are weary, then okay, let's let's talk about your schedule. let's let's talk about your schedule. let's let's talk about your schedule. Let's build in a summer break that we Let's build in a summer break that we Let's build in a summer break that we can figure that out. If you're wounded, can figure that out. If you're wounded, can figure that out. If you're wounded, you cannot sbatical your way into you cannot sbatical your way into you cannot sbatical your way into healing if you're wounded. Welcome to healing if you're wounded. Welcome to healing if you're wounded. Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, what do I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, what do I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, what do you do when nobody trusts pastors you do when nobody trusts pastors you do when nobody trusts pastors anymore? I mean, how do you respond? How anymore? I mean, how do you respond? How anymore? I mean, how do you respond? How do you lead in that? Plus, we talk about do you lead in that? Plus, we talk about do you lead in that? Plus, we talk about the nextgen church leaders mental health the nextgen church leaders mental health the nextgen church leaders mental health crisis and the difference between being crisis and the difference between being crisis and the difference between being weary and being wounded. I'm unpacking weary and being wounded. I'm unpacking weary and being wounded. I'm unpacking all that today with Glenn Pacium. So all that today with Glenn Pacium. So all that today with Glenn Pacium. So glad to have him on the podcast. Hey, if glad to have him on the podcast. Hey, if glad to have him on the podcast. Hey, if you're new here, make sure you you're new here, make sure you you're new here, make sure you subscribe. And for those of you who are subscribe. And for those of you who are subscribe. And for those of you who are regulars or if you're new, uh maybe like regulars or if you're new, uh maybe like regulars or if you're new, uh maybe like this conversation and leave a comment to this conversation and leave a comment to this conversation and leave a comment to join it. And now, a word from today's join it. And now, a word from today's join it. And now, a word from today's partners and then we'll dive into my partners and then we'll dive into my partners and then we'll dive into my conversation with Glenn Pacium. Today's conversation with Glenn Pacium. Today's conversation with Glenn Pacium. Today's episode is brought to you by Glue. Well, episode is brought to you by Glue. Well, episode is brought to you by Glue. Well, if you're like most pastors, you're if you're like most pastors, you're if you're like most pastors, you're diving into AI. But the question is, how diving into AI. But the question is, how diving into AI. But the question is, how do you know whether Chat GPT is giving do you know whether Chat GPT is giving do you know whether Chat GPT is giving you accurate answers or whether they're you accurate answers or whether they're you accurate answers or whether they're even aligned with your doctrinal even aligned with your doctrinal even aligned with your doctrinal beliefs, with your values? So, Glue has beliefs, with your values? So, Glue has beliefs, with your values? So, Glue has been diving into AI and Devon Klein from been diving into AI and Devon Klein from been diving into AI and Devon Klein from Glue AAI is here to tell us a little bit Glue AAI is here to tell us a little bit Glue AAI is here to tell us a little bit more. What are you doing right now with more. What are you doing right now with more. What are you doing right now with AI, Devon, for church leaders? Yeah, AI, Devon, for church leaders? Yeah, AI, Devon, for church leaders? Yeah, thanks Carrie. Uh at Glue AI, we've been thanks Carrie. Uh at Glue AI, we've been thanks Carrie. Uh at Glue AI, we've been working really hard to build AI to serve working really hard to build AI to serve working really hard to build AI to serve the church and the faith community. Uh the church and the faith community. Uh the church and the faith community. Uh to give them AI that aligns with their to give them AI that aligns with their to give them AI that aligns with their ethics, morals, and mission. Uh now ethics, morals, and mission. Uh now ethics, morals, and mission. Uh now churches can train glue ai on their own

churches can train glue ai on their own churches can train glue ai on their own documents, policies, and beliefs. So documents, policies, and beliefs. So documents, policies, and beliefs. So their team and congregation can get their team and congregation can get their team and congregation can get trustworthy onbrand answers instantly trustworthy onbrand answers instantly trustworthy onbrand answers instantly with custom AI assistance. Churches can with custom AI assistance. Churches can with custom AI assistance. Churches can have a 247 digital presence on their have a 247 digital presence on their have a 247 digital presence on their website, engaging and serving their website, engaging and serving their website, engaging and serving their people whenever they need it the most. people whenever they need it the most. people whenever they need it the most. Okay. So, if you're interested in Okay. So, if you're interested in Okay. So, if you're interested in getting your church's documents, belief getting your church's documents, belief getting your church's documents, belief statements, and everything to feed into statements, and everything to feed into statements, and everything to feed into the AI you're using, all you have to do the AI you're using, all you have to do the AI you're using, all you have to do is go to is go to is go to ai.glue.com. That's a.goo.com to get started today. Today's a.goo.com to get started today. Today's episode is brought to you by Blay. So, episode is brought to you by Blay. So, episode is brought to you by Blay. So, what is one task you wish you could what is one task you wish you could what is one task you wish you could delegate today? The truth is, just delegate today? The truth is, just delegate today? The truth is, just because it has to get done doesn't mean because it has to get done doesn't mean because it has to get done doesn't mean you have to be the one to do it. So stop you have to be the one to do it. So stop you have to be the one to do it. So stop doing it all and start delegating with doing it all and start delegating with doing it all and start delegating with Blay. I just delegated a problem I had Blay. I just delegated a problem I had Blay. I just delegated a problem I had the other day to my assistant. I'll tell the other day to my assistant. I'll tell the other day to my assistant. I'll tell you makes a huge difference. Frees up you makes a huge difference. Frees up you makes a huge difference. Frees up your mental load. And for over a decade, your mental load. And for over a decade, your mental load. And for over a decade, Ble has matched busy leaders like you Ble has matched busy leaders like you Ble has matched busy leaders like you with the support they need to start with the support they need to start with the support they need to start delegating. Whether it's a virtual delegating. Whether it's a virtual delegating. Whether it's a virtual assistant to knock out your to-do list assistant to knock out your to-do list assistant to knock out your to-do list or an accounting professional to handle or an accounting professional to handle or an accounting professional to handle your finances, Blay's flexible staffing your finances, Blay's flexible staffing your finances, Blay's flexible staffing solutions have your right hire right solutions have your right hire right solutions have your right hire right now. So, to get started, download Blay's now. So, to get started, download Blay's now. So, to get started, download Blay's free guide to delegation today. 25 free guide to delegation today. 25 free guide to delegation today. 25 things to stop doing in 2025. With this things to stop doing in 2025. With this things to stop doing in 2025. With this resource, you can declutter your to-do resource, you can declutter your to-do resource, you can declutter your to-do list. Delegate to someone you trust and list. Delegate to someone you trust and list. Delegate to someone you trust and reclaim your time and focus today.

reclaim your time and focus today. reclaim your time and focus today. Here's what you do. Text my name, Here's what you do. Text my name, Here's what you do. Text my name, Carrie, C A R E Y, to 55123 for your Carrie, C A R E Y, to 55123 for your Carrie, C A R E Y, to 55123 for your free download. That's C A R E Y to free download. That's C A R E Y to free download. That's C A R E Y to 55123. and in no time you'll be off 55123. and in no time you'll be off 55123. and in no time you'll be off doing exactly what you do best. Glenn, doing exactly what you do best. Glenn, doing exactly what you do best. Glenn, really good to have you back on the really good to have you back on the really good to have you back on the podcast. Welcome, Gary. Thank you so podcast. Welcome, Gary. Thank you so podcast. Welcome, Gary. Thank you so much, man. What an honor. I enjoy our much, man. What an honor. I enjoy our much, man. What an honor. I enjoy our conversations a lot. So, a softball conversations a lot. So, a softball conversations a lot. So, a softball question to get us started. Pretty easy question to get us started. Pretty easy question to get us started. Pretty easy time to be a pastor these days, isn't time to be a pastor these days, isn't time to be a pastor these days, isn't it? it? it? No. No. Is this actually the hardest No. No. Is this actually the hardest No. No. Is this actually the hardest time to be a pastor like sort of in our time to be a pastor like sort of in our time to be a pastor like sort of in our effective lifetimes or is that just effective lifetimes or is that just effective lifetimes or is that just hyperbole? hyperbole? hyperbole? You know, obviously in our effective You know, obviously in our effective You know, obviously in our effective lifetimes is the right qualifier there, lifetimes is the right qualifier there, lifetimes is the right qualifier there, Carrie. I mean, I think in our recent Carrie. I mean, I think in our recent Carrie. I mean, I think in our recent memory, in our collective memory, it's memory, in our collective memory, it's memory, in our collective memory, it's certainly in this way. Let's not pretend certainly in this way. Let's not pretend certainly in this way. Let's not pretend to be China or you know persecuted to be China or you know persecuted to be China or you know persecuted church. Yeah, that's right. In the west, church. Yeah, that's right. In the west, church. Yeah, that's right. In the west, in North America, where our context is, in North America, where our context is, in North America, where our context is, Carrie, I think I think it is and I Carrie, I think I think it is and I Carrie, I think I think it is and I think there's a few factors for that. I think there's a few factors for that. I think there's a few factors for that. I think the attitudes externally are think the attitudes externally are think the attitudes externally are what's changed the most dramatically. So what's changed the most dramatically. So what's changed the most dramatically. So for example, you know, may maybe 20 for example, you know, may maybe 20 for example, you know, may maybe 20 years ago or so there was kind of this years ago or so there was kind of this years ago or so there was kind of this militant atheism and people were out to militant atheism and people were out to militant atheism and people were out to sort of disprove any kind of god, you sort of disprove any kind of god, you sort of disprove any kind of god, you know, so you have Dawkins and Hitchens know, so you have Dawkins and Hitchens know, so you have Dawkins and Hitchens and all that. I think that's quieted and all that. I think that's quieted and all that. I think that's quieted down quite a bit. And then it sort of down quite a bit. And then it sort of down quite a bit. And then it sort of shifted to an indifferent agnosticism.

shifted to an indifferent agnosticism. shifted to an indifferent agnosticism. This sort of like, oh, I don't know, you This sort of like, oh, I don't know, you This sort of like, oh, I don't know, you don't know. Who cares? Even that you don't know. Who cares? Even that you don't know. Who cares? Even that you could work with that. I think what we could work with that. I think what we could work with that. I think what we have now it's kind of confusing and have now it's kind of confusing and have now it's kind of confusing and complex. What we have now I would call complex. What we have now I would call complex. What we have now I would call it a curious skepticism. So you have all it a curious skepticism. So you have all it a curious skepticism. So you have all of this data from Bara about curiosity of this data from Bara about curiosity of this data from Bara about curiosity and you know spiritual openness. 71% of and you know spiritual openness. 71% of and you know spiritual openness. 71% of people fall in between you know they're people fall in between you know they're people fall in between you know they're neither practicing Christians that's 19% neither practicing Christians that's 19% neither practicing Christians that's 19% nor are they naturalist hardcore there's nor are they naturalist hardcore there's nor are they naturalist hardcore there's no supernatural that's only 10%. So you no supernatural that's only 10%. So you no supernatural that's only 10%. So you got 71% in the middle who would say, got 71% in the middle who would say, got 71% in the middle who would say, "No, there's some kind of spiritual or "No, there's some kind of spiritual or "No, there's some kind of spiritual or supernatural." But the skepticism word supernatural." But the skepticism word supernatural." But the skepticism word is a huge part of this. I it's high is a huge part of this. I it's high is a huge part of this. I it's high spiritual openness but low institutional spiritual openness but low institutional spiritual openness but low institutional trust. And and and that's true of all trust. And and and that's true of all trust. And and and that's true of all institutions, whether it's the news or institutions, whether it's the news or institutions, whether it's the news or the government or the church. And so for the government or the church. And so for the government or the church. And so for a pastor, you you're wrapped up, you're a pastor, you you're wrapped up, you're a pastor, you you're wrapped up, you're associated with an institution, an old associated with an institution, an old associated with an institution, an old institution, and even if people are institution, and even if people are institution, and even if people are spiritually open, they don't trust you spiritually open, they don't trust you spiritually open, they don't trust you to be the spokesperson for it. to be the spokesperson for it. to be the spokesperson for it. So yeah, there is that decline in So yeah, there is that decline in So yeah, there is that decline in institutions which has been part of institutions which has been part of institutions which has been part of postmodernism and you know being postmodernism and you know being postmodernism and you know being Canadian I grew up in that. I do most of Canadian I grew up in that. I do most of Canadian I grew up in that. I do most of my work in the US but I and I'm you know my work in the US but I and I'm you know my work in the US but I and I'm you know permanent resident of the US but um permanent resident of the US but um permanent resident of the US but um having a lot of Canadian having a lot of Canadian having a lot of Canadian background you know it's really background you know it's really background you know it's really interesting to me that I saw that in my interesting to me that I saw that in my interesting to me that I saw that in my childhood so I just assumed it but childhood so I just assumed it but childhood so I just assumed it but pastors were respected in the '9s and pastors were respected in the '9s and pastors were respected in the '9s and the early 2000s and that's plummeted.

the early 2000s and that's plummeted. the early 2000s and that's plummeted. But let's talk about the thing that I But let's talk about the thing that I But let's talk about the thing that I hear a lot about. Friendly fire. Or hear a lot about. Friendly fire. Or hear a lot about. Friendly fire. Or maybe it's not even friendly anymore. I maybe it's not even friendly anymore. I maybe it's not even friendly anymore. I mean, the number of pastors who've had mean, the number of pastors who've had mean, the number of pastors who've had to apologize for what they said. Not to apologize for what they said. Not to apologize for what they said. Not what they did. It's not like, "Yeah, I what they did. It's not like, "Yeah, I what they did. It's not like, "Yeah, I slept around on my spouse." You know, slept around on my spouse." You know, slept around on my spouse." You know, not No, not that. I mean, that is enough not No, not that. I mean, that is enough not No, not that. I mean, that is enough in and of itself. But like they said the in and of itself. But like they said the in and of itself. But like they said the wrong thing in the sermon. Um, you know, wrong thing in the sermon. Um, you know, wrong thing in the sermon. Um, you know, we were just joking, not joking, we were just joking, not joking, we were just joking, not joking, commenting before we started, and I commenting before we started, and I commenting before we started, and I won't say who it was because it'll date won't say who it was because it'll date won't say who it was because it'll date it, but there was a very well-known it, but there was a very well-known it, but there was a very well-known pastor. every single listener would know pastor. every single listener would know pastor. every single listener would know who had to apologize for something that who had to apologize for something that who had to apologize for something that he posted on X on the weekend because he posted on X on the weekend because he posted on X on the weekend because both sides just jumped on him and you both sides just jumped on him and you both sides just jumped on him and you know he said, "Oh, I I I wrote wrong. I know he said, "Oh, I I I wrote wrong. I know he said, "Oh, I I I wrote wrong. I I sorry that was a mistake on my part." I sorry that was a mistake on my part." I sorry that was a mistake on my part." And I think every pastor can identify And I think every pastor can identify And I think every pastor can identify with that. You know, you say something with that. You know, you say something with that. You know, you say something that you don't even think is contentious that you don't even think is contentious that you don't even think is contentious and it's contentious. Like, is that a and it's contentious. Like, is that a and it's contentious. Like, is that a part of it or is my mailbox just filled part of it or is my mailbox just filled part of it or is my mailbox just filled with that and that's not a trend? Well, with that and that's not a trend? Well, with that and that's not a trend? Well, I I'm seeing it, too. My mailbox is full I I'm seeing it, too. My mailbox is full I I'm seeing it, too. My mailbox is full of it too, Carrie. And I I think you of it too, Carrie. And I I think you of it too, Carrie. And I I think you know this it's a it's a it's a know this it's a it's a it's a know this it's a it's a it's a combination of factors. I think you know combination of factors. I think you know combination of factors. I think you know the the digital age is like the wild the the digital age is like the wild the the digital age is like the wild west. So everybody's trying to carve out west. So everybody's trying to carve out west. So everybody's trying to carve out their own little plot of land.

their own little plot of land. their own little plot of land. Everybody's trying to strike gold. Only Everybody's trying to strike gold. Only Everybody's trying to strike gold. Only gold in the digital age is fame and gold in the digital age is fame and gold in the digital age is fame and influence and and number of clicks and influence and and number of clicks and influence and and number of clicks and followers. So everybody's trying to, you followers. So everybody's trying to, you followers. So everybody's trying to, you know, strike gold in in terms of know, strike gold in in terms of know, strike gold in in terms of influence. And then everybody's their influence. And then everybody's their influence. And then everybody's their own sheriff, their own sort of own sheriff, their own sort of own sheriff, their own sort of vigilante, you know, I'm the vigilante, you know, I'm the vigilante, you know, I'm the self-appointed theology police here, you self-appointed theology police here, you self-appointed theology police here, you know, and And so so there is friendly know, and And so so there is friendly know, and And so so there is friendly fire and there is this sense of and then fire and there is this sense of and then fire and there is this sense of and then you combine it. You know just to go back you combine it. You know just to go back you combine it. You know just to go back to the the the credibility or the to the the the credibility or the to the the the credibility or the institutional trust. Let's talk about institutional trust. Let's talk about institutional trust. Let's talk about pastors. Um when we first when I first pastors. Um when we first when I first pastors. Um when we first when I first did the resilient pastor research there did the resilient pastor research there did the resilient pastor research there was about you know 65% or so of was about you know 65% or so of was about you know 65% or so of Christians who would have agreed that a Christians who would have agreed that a Christians who would have agreed that a pastor is a trustworthy voice of wisdom. pastor is a trustworthy voice of wisdom. pastor is a trustworthy voice of wisdom. I thought that was bad news because that I thought that was bad news because that I thought that was bad news because that meant a third How long ago was that? meant a third How long ago was that? meant a third How long ago was that? Let's times it. So so that was that was Let's times it. So so that was that was Let's times it. So so that was that was 2020 uh early 2022. We we asked 2020 uh early 2022. We we asked 2020 uh early 2022. We we asked Americans, we said, "Do you consider a Americans, we said, "Do you consider a Americans, we said, "Do you consider a pastor a trustworthy source of wisdom?" pastor a trustworthy source of wisdom?" pastor a trustworthy source of wisdom?" This is 2022. 65% said yes. You know, at This is 2022. 65% said yes. You know, at This is 2022. 65% said yes. You know, at least yes, you know, hesitantly, maybe least yes, you know, hesitantly, maybe least yes, you know, hesitantly, maybe even strong. And I thought that was bad even strong. And I thought that was bad even strong. And I thought that was bad news. I was like, man, that means a news. I was like, man, that means a news. I was like, man, that means a third of our people are listening to us third of our people are listening to us third of our people are listening to us and going, "Yeah, I don't know." That and going, "Yeah, I don't know." That and going, "Yeah, I don't know." That number, Carrie, has dropped. That's now number, Carrie, has dropped. That's now number, Carrie, has dropped. That's now it's now only 45% of churchgoing it's now only 45% of churchgoing it's now only 45% of churchgoing Christians consider a pastor a Christians consider a pastor a Christians consider a pastor a trustworthy source of wisdom. Imagine trustworthy source of wisdom. Imagine trustworthy source of wisdom. Imagine churchgoing Christians, not atheists.

churchgoing Christians, not atheists. churchgoing Christians, not atheists. No, no, it's it's like 6% or or you No, no, it's it's like 6% or or you No, no, it's it's like 6% or or you know, of non-Christians, which that's know, of non-Christians, which that's know, of non-Christians, which that's pretty low. So, the wider culture is pretty low. So, the wider culture is pretty low. So, the wider culture is definitely definitely not listening. But definitely definitely not listening. But definitely definitely not listening. But more than half the people in our more than half the people in our more than half the people in our churches are listening to the things we churches are listening to the things we churches are listening to the things we post or or say and and and receiving it post or or say and and and receiving it post or or say and and and receiving it with a kind of skepticism. That's tough. with a kind of skepticism. That's tough. with a kind of skepticism. That's tough. Now, you know, you're not just a writer Now, you know, you're not just a writer Now, you know, you're not just a writer and a commentator and a podcast host. and a commentator and a podcast host. and a commentator and a podcast host. You're also a full-time pastor in Orange You're also a full-time pastor in Orange You're also a full-time pastor in Orange County. Let's let's get personal. How County. Let's let's get personal. How County. Let's let's get personal. How does that play out for you as pastor of does that play out for you as pastor of does that play out for you as pastor of a local church? You know, out here on a local church? You know, out here on a local church? You know, out here on the West Coast in California, it it's the West Coast in California, it it's the West Coast in California, it it's well known, you know, that people are well known, you know, that people are well known, you know, that people are into all kinds of um spiritual things, into all kinds of um spiritual things, into all kinds of um spiritual things, you know, whether that's micro doing on you know, whether that's micro doing on you know, whether that's micro doing on hallucinogens or whether that's crystals hallucinogens or whether that's crystals hallucinogens or whether that's crystals or whether that, you know, everybody's or whether that, you know, everybody's or whether that, you know, everybody's chasing something and this new injection chasing something and this new injection chasing something and this new injection or this new thing or this new spa. I or this new thing or this new spa. I or this new thing or this new spa. I mean, I saw a thing on the local news mean, I saw a thing on the local news mean, I saw a thing on the local news where where a a rabbi was saying, where where a a rabbi was saying, where where a a rabbi was saying, "Actually, if we could work in some of "Actually, if we could work in some of "Actually, if we could work in some of these um mushrooms into into our our these um mushrooms into into our our these um mushrooms into into our our meditation practices, I mean, this is meditation practices, I mean, this is meditation practices, I mean, this is it's the wild west in a very literal way it's the wild west in a very literal way it's the wild west in a very literal way where any kind of customizable where any kind of customizable where any kind of customizable spirituality goes so long as a I'm in spirituality goes so long as a I'm in spirituality goes so long as a I'm in charge of my own spirituality and so charge of my own spirituality and so charge of my own spirituality and so long as b it makes me better." So long as b it makes me better." So long as b it makes me better." So spirituality is connected with self um spirituality is connected with self um spirituality is connected with self um uh self- authoring and self optimizing.

uh self- authoring and self optimizing. uh self- authoring and self optimizing. And so then as a pastor I feel like hey And so then as a pastor I feel like hey And so then as a pastor I feel like hey do I get a voice in this? Can I guide do I get a voice in this? Can I guide do I get a voice in this? Can I guide you at all? Um and you don't you at all? Um and you don't you at all? Um and you don't automatically have that trust or or automatically have that trust or or automatically have that trust or or authority. Not that I'm not looking for authority. Not that I'm not looking for authority. Not that I'm not looking for control. I'm looking for influence. But control. I'm looking for influence. But control. I'm looking for influence. But spiritual authority is pretty hard to to spiritual authority is pretty hard to to spiritual authority is pretty hard to to identify or feel like I have that uh out identify or feel like I have that uh out identify or feel like I have that uh out here. So, are you getting uh emails and, here. So, are you getting uh emails and, here. So, are you getting uh emails and, you know, DMs or public call outs from you know, DMs or public call outs from you know, DMs or public call outs from the people who go to your church about the people who go to your church about the people who go to your church about what you're saying or not saying or what you're saying or not saying or what you're saying or not saying or doing or not doing? No, I listen, I I do doing or not doing? No, I listen, I I do doing or not doing? No, I listen, I I do feel very fortunate in that, Carrie. We feel very fortunate in that, Carrie. We feel very fortunate in that, Carrie. We have a really, really supportive church have a really, really supportive church have a really, really supportive church and amazing elders, amazing congregants and amazing elders, amazing congregants and amazing elders, amazing congregants and leaders, people who are genuinely and leaders, people who are genuinely and leaders, people who are genuinely leaning in, hungry for the word of God, leaning in, hungry for the word of God, leaning in, hungry for the word of God, all all of that. But it's the it's the all all of that. But it's the it's the all all of that. But it's the it's the people who are newer who start coming people who are newer who start coming people who are newer who start coming who have just started coming which I'm who have just started coming which I'm who have just started coming which I'm I'm grateful for. So grateful for people I'm grateful for. So grateful for people I'm grateful for. So grateful for people on the edges uh you know leaning in. But on the edges uh you know leaning in. But on the edges uh you know leaning in. But it's those people who go now hang on a it's those people who go now hang on a it's those people who go now hang on a minute now. Why is this the view on on minute now. Why is this the view on on minute now. Why is this the view on on sexuality or or why is this the view sexuality or or why is this the view sexuality or or why is this the view about um you know money or whatever that about um you know money or whatever that about um you know money or whatever that it may be? Now it's easy when I start it may be? Now it's easy when I start it may be? Now it's easy when I start when I preach a sermon about how Jesus when I preach a sermon about how Jesus when I preach a sermon about how Jesus can free you from worry or anxiety. Oh, can free you from worry or anxiety. Oh, can free you from worry or anxiety. Oh, people love that because again that fits people love that because again that fits people love that because again that fits into that self- optimization, you know, into that self- optimization, you know, into that self- optimization, you know, kind of goal. But if I start and and and kind of goal. But if I start and and and kind of goal. But if I start and and and of course, inevitably you teach through of course, inevitably you teach through of course, inevitably you teach through the Bible, you're going to come across, the Bible, you're going to come across, the Bible, you're going to come across, you're going to have to talk about sin.

you're going to have to talk about sin. you're going to have to talk about sin. You're going to have to talk about You're going to have to talk about You're going to have to talk about convicting things. And that's where some convicting things. And that's where some convicting things. And that's where some sermons should provoke anxiety. Yes. If sermons should provoke anxiety. Yes. If sermons should provoke anxiety. Yes. If you're doing it right. If you're doing you're doing it right. If you're doing you're doing it right. If you're doing it right. Right. Like you shouldn't feel it right. Right. Like you shouldn't feel it right. Right. Like you shouldn't feel good after this is over. Oh, exactly. good after this is over. Oh, exactly. good after this is over. Oh, exactly. anyagram 8 preacher in me is like I anyagram 8 preacher in me is like I anyagram 8 preacher in me is like I enjoyed those Sundays maybe a little bit enjoyed those Sundays maybe a little bit enjoyed those Sundays maybe a little bit too much if you if you upset the too much if you if you upset the too much if you if you upset the equilibrium. I like that. I like that. equilibrium. I like that. I like that. equilibrium. I like that. I like that. So what can you do to So what can you do to So what can you do to um because I agree there's there's not a um because I agree there's there's not a um because I agree there's there's not a lot of and and some of that was lot of and and some of that was lot of and and some of that was institutional loyalty. You know, I I've institutional loyalty. You know, I I've institutional loyalty. You know, I I've told the story before here, so if you've told the story before here, so if you've told the story before here, so if you've heard this on some random episode 200 heard this on some random episode 200 heard this on some random episode 200 episodes ago, forgive me. But, you know, episodes ago, forgive me. But, you know, episodes ago, forgive me. But, you know, I come from a long line of Dutch I come from a long line of Dutch I come from a long line of Dutch immigrants. My grandmother was born in immigrants. My grandmother was born in immigrants. My grandmother was born in Holland, moved here to Canada uh years Holland, moved here to Canada uh years Holland, moved here to Canada uh years ago. And when I said I was going into ago. And when I said I was going into ago. And when I said I was going into ministry, she was very excited. And in ministry, she was very excited. And in ministry, she was very excited. And in her Holland in the 20th century, if the her Holland in the 20th century, if the her Holland in the 20th century, if the pastor, the pastor, the pastor, the domin came down the street, you stopped domin came down the street, you stopped domin came down the street, you stopped and you tipped your hat and you tipped and you tipped your hat and you tipped and you tipped your hat and you tipped your hat at the banker and you tipped your hat at the banker and you tipped your hat at the banker and you tipped your hat at the lawyer. And so it was uh your hat at the lawyer. And so it was uh your hat at the lawyer. And so it was uh you know, she thought it was a very you know, she thought it was a very you know, she thought it was a very esteemed profession. I'm like, "Oh, esteemed profession. I'm like, "Oh, esteemed profession. I'm like, "Oh, grandma, you don't know." Uh but anyway grandma, you don't know." Uh but anyway grandma, you don't know." Uh but anyway um you know so that kind of borrowed um you know so that kind of borrowed um you know so that kind of borrowed institutional trust is gone as it is for institutional trust is gone as it is for institutional trust is gone as it is for politicians as it is for almost anybody politicians as it is for almost anybody politicians as it is for almost anybody representing any established authority representing any established authority representing any established authority CEOs CEOs CEOs etc etc. Even healthcare workers took a etc etc. Even healthcare workers took a etc etc. Even healthcare workers took a big hit in the last 5 years. Doctors big hit in the last 5 years. Doctors big hit in the last 5 years. Doctors aren't trusted anymore etc. So there's

aren't trusted anymore etc. So there's aren't trusted anymore etc. So there's that sort of can we call it borrowed that sort of can we call it borrowed that sort of can we call it borrowed authority? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So what authority? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So what authority? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So what what do you need to do to establish what do you need to do to establish what do you need to do to establish actual authority and or credibility? actual authority and or credibility? actual authority and or credibility? Like what are some things you could you Like what are some things you could you Like what are some things you could you know to do or to avoid? know to do or to avoid? know to do or to avoid? I think to avoid let's start there. I I think to avoid let's start there. I I think to avoid let's start there. I think to avoid is to rely on the same think to avoid is to rely on the same think to avoid is to rely on the same sort of gimmicky kind of thing. Now this sort of gimmicky kind of thing. Now this sort of gimmicky kind of thing. Now this is a line this there's a fine line here is a line this there's a fine line here is a line this there's a fine line here because I believe in in being relevant. because I believe in in being relevant. because I believe in in being relevant. I'm I'm as excited about AI and all that I'm I'm as excited about AI and all that I'm I'm as excited about AI and all that stuff as you are Carrie and I think stuff as you are Carrie and I think stuff as you are Carrie and I think there's ways for the church to take there's ways for the church to take there's ways for the church to take advantage of this. So there's there's advantage of this. So there's there's advantage of this. So there's there's ways of of leveraging social media and ways of of leveraging social media and ways of of leveraging social media and messaging and I love all of that. I'm messaging and I love all of that. I'm messaging and I love all of that. I'm pretty active on it. Um at the same pretty active on it. Um at the same pretty active on it. Um at the same time, what we don't want is to say we're time, what we don't want is to say we're time, what we don't want is to say we're just another in a long scroll of talking just another in a long scroll of talking just another in a long scroll of talking head influencers on, you know, Tik Tok, head influencers on, you know, Tik Tok, head influencers on, you know, Tik Tok, Instagram, whatever. We can't just be Instagram, whatever. We can't just be Instagram, whatever. We can't just be another catchy, persuasive person. There another catchy, persuasive person. There another catchy, persuasive person. There has to be another reason to trust us. has to be another reason to trust us. has to be another reason to trust us. And it's one of the things, you know, And it's one of the things, you know, And it's one of the things, you know, it's a bit counterintuitive because it's a bit counterintuitive because it's a bit counterintuitive because California is incurably future focused, California is incurably future focused, California is incurably future focused, you know, and that's what makes you know, and that's what makes you know, and that's what makes California wonderful. We're we're we're California wonderful. We're we're we're California wonderful. We're we're we're focused on the imagining new futures, focused on the imagining new futures, focused on the imagining new futures, ideiation, and all of that. But I have ideiation, and all of that. But I have ideiation, and all of that. But I have found that actually the medicine that found that actually the medicine that found that actually the medicine that people are longing for is a retrieval of people are longing for is a retrieval of people are longing for is a retrieval of something ancient and something trusted.

something ancient and something trusted. something ancient and something trusted. So for example, I did a series on So for example, I did a series on So for example, I did a series on proverbs and I go, "Hey, here here are proverbs and I go, "Hey, here here are proverbs and I go, "Hey, here here are life hacks from the richest man who ever life hacks from the richest man who ever life hacks from the richest man who ever lived in the ancient world." you know, lived in the ancient world." you know, lived in the ancient world." you know, like wouldn't you like to know, you like wouldn't you like to know, you like wouldn't you like to know, you know, and and I I think I'm not just know, and and I I think I'm not just know, and and I I think I'm not just trying to be cute. I'm trying to say trying to be cute. I'm trying to say trying to be cute. I'm trying to say what scripture offers is time-tested what scripture offers is time-tested what scripture offers is time-tested wisdom from other ages that you don't wisdom from other ages that you don't wisdom from other ages that you don't have to say, is it going to last? Is it have to say, is it going to last? Is it have to say, is it going to last? Is it going to be here 5 years from now? And going to be here 5 years from now? And going to be here 5 years from now? And in a similar way, something like the the in a similar way, something like the the in a similar way, something like the the Nyine Creed, we did a series on the Nyine Creed, we did a series on the Nyine Creed, we did a series on the creed as well as a way of saying this is creed as well as a way of saying this is creed as well as a way of saying this is the core of what Christians believe. And the core of what Christians believe. And the core of what Christians believe. And that has helped because now I'm not that has helped because now I'm not that has helped because now I'm not saying trust me because I'm a good saying trust me because I'm a good saying trust me because I'm a good communicator or trust our church because communicator or trust our church because communicator or trust our church because we're cool. I'm saying trust something we're cool. I'm saying trust something we're cool. I'm saying trust something that has stood the test of time in lots that has stood the test of time in lots that has stood the test of time in lots of different countries and in lots of of different countries and in lots of of different countries and in lots of different eras and it's bigger than you different eras and it's bigger than you different eras and it's bigger than you and it's bigger than me. And somehow and it's bigger than me. And somehow and it's bigger than me. And somehow people go okay actually I'm looking for people go okay actually I'm looking for people go okay actually I'm looking for that. So you're not pointing to your own that. So you're not pointing to your own that. So you're not pointing to your own authority. You're pointing to the authority. You're pointing to the authority. You're pointing to the authority of scripture, the authority of authority of scripture, the authority of authority of scripture, the authority of the gospel, the authority of Christ. The the gospel, the authority of Christ. The the gospel, the authority of Christ. The authority of scripture. Yes. the authority of scripture. Yes. the authority of scripture. Yes. the authority, you know, and and the witness authority, you know, and and the witness authority, you know, and and the witness to the global and historic church. I I to the global and historic church. I I to the global and historic church. I I think it's helpful people to understand think it's helpful people to understand think it's helpful people to understand when someone says I don't like the when someone says I don't like the when someone says I don't like the church or the church has failed or the church or the church has failed or the church or the church has failed or the church I I always want to listen very church I I always want to listen very church I I always want to listen very carefully and and if there's trust there carefully and and if there's trust there carefully and and if there's trust there uh to ask better questions like tell me uh to ask better questions like tell me uh to ask better questions like tell me about the church you're talking about about the church you're talking about about the church you're talking about and often times it's it's one local and often times it's it's one local and often times it's it's one local church or even one contemporary church or even one contemporary church or even one contemporary tradition of the church and I want to tradition of the church and I want to tradition of the church and I want to help them zoom out and go you know what help them zoom out and go you know what help them zoom out and go you know what there's a global church there's a there's a global church there's a there's a global church there's a historic church and we're talking about

historic church and we're talking about historic church and we're talking about a corner here where things have gone a corner here where things have gone a corner here where things have gone squirly and that's great that that we squirly and that's great that that we squirly and that's great that that we have to take that seriously but also have to take that seriously but also have to take that seriously but also when we say there's we want to bear when we say there's we want to bear when we say there's we want to bear witness to a larger community that's witness to a larger community that's witness to a larger community that's actually comforting to people to say actually comforting to people to say actually comforting to people to say this whole thing is not messed up. What this whole thing is not messed up. What this whole thing is not messed up. What do you do personally as far as how you do you do personally as far as how you do you do personally as far as how you live your life, how you communicate, how live your life, how you communicate, how live your life, how you communicate, how you lead, uh to you lead, uh to you lead, uh to avoid, you know, having credibility avoid, you know, having credibility avoid, you know, having credibility around the idea that you're not around the idea that you're not around the idea that you're not trustworthy, right? Like what are you trustworthy, right? Like what are you trustworthy, right? Like what are you doing to I I you know, I'm trying to doing to I I you know, I'm trying to doing to I I you know, I'm trying to live my life with integrity. I'm trying live my life with integrity. I'm trying live my life with integrity. I'm trying to do that privately and publicly. I to do that privately and publicly. I to do that privately and publicly. I don't always get it right, but I' I'd don't always get it right, but I' I'd don't always get it right, but I' I'd love to know like what you're doing so love to know like what you're doing so love to know like what you're doing so that it sort of even non-verbbally sends that it sort of even non-verbbally sends that it sort of even non-verbbally sends the signal it's it's okay here. You can the signal it's it's okay here. You can the signal it's it's okay here. You can trust me. I I think the only way I know trust me. I I think the only way I know trust me. I I think the only way I know to do this is to live close to people, to do this is to live close to people, to do this is to live close to people, to live in proximity with people. And I to live in proximity with people. And I to live in proximity with people. And I I I think for a lot of pastors, the I I think for a lot of pastors, the I I think for a lot of pastors, the instinct when you're not trusted is to instinct when you're not trusted is to instinct when you're not trusted is to retreat, is to is to go further away retreat, is to is to go further away retreat, is to is to go further away from people. Um to to go out to your from people. Um to to go out to your from people. Um to to go out to your ranch, away from out of town and all ranch, away from out of town and all ranch, away from out of town and all that. And I get that seasonally, right?

that. And I get that seasonally, right? that. And I get that seasonally, right? Or or occasionally. But, you know, my Or or occasionally. But, you know, my Or or occasionally. But, you know, my wife and I, we're in a small group with wife and I, we're in a small group with wife and I, we're in a small group with with people in our church. We're in a with people in our church. We're in a with people in our church. We're in a um, you know, we're in other people's um, you know, we're in other people's um, you know, we're in other people's homes for meals. If people invite us homes for meals. If people invite us homes for meals. If people invite us over, we we check the calendar. You we over, we we check the calendar. You we over, we we check the calendar. You we try to make it work. Uh, I I fill my try to make it work. Uh, I I fill my try to make it work. Uh, I I fill my week um not just with meetings with the week um not just with meetings with the week um not just with meetings with the staff, but with appointments with folks staff, but with appointments with folks staff, but with appointments with folks in the church. I'm I'm out in the lobby, in the church. I'm I'm out in the lobby, in the church. I'm I'm out in the lobby, not in the green room. I'm not trying to not in the green room. I'm not trying to not in the green room. I'm not trying to be controversial, throw shade at anyone be controversial, throw shade at anyone be controversial, throw shade at anyone else. I just that's the only way I know else. I just that's the only way I know else. I just that's the only way I know to build trust because I'm not going to to build trust because I'm not going to to build trust because I'm not going to borrow it from the institution or from borrow it from the institution or from borrow it from the institution or from the position or from my education. It's the position or from my education. It's the position or from my education. It's only going to be one through only going to be one through only going to be one through transparency and authenticity and transparency and authenticity and transparency and authenticity and proximity. proximity. proximity. That's interesting. And you're not That's interesting. And you're not That's interesting. And you're not leading a church of 50 or 75. How many leading a church of 50 or 75. How many leading a church of 50 or 75. How many people would typically attend at a Rock people would typically attend at a Rock people would typically attend at a Rock Harbor weekend? I mean, yeah. On a Harbor weekend? I mean, yeah. On a Harbor weekend? I mean, yeah. On a weekend, 1600, 1700. So, you've got lots weekend, 1600, 1700. So, you've got lots weekend, 1600, 1700. So, you've got lots of reasons to say, you know what, I'm of reasons to say, you know what, I'm of reasons to say, you know what, I'm not available. So, you're making not available. So, you're making not available. So, you're making yourself available. The other thing you yourself available. The other thing you yourself available. The other thing you said that that is really interesting said that that is really interesting said that that is really interesting about proximity. I mean, as we're about proximity. I mean, as we're about proximity. I mean, as we're recording this, our our countries are recording this, our our countries are recording this, our our countries are not quite at war, but Canada and the US, not quite at war, but Canada and the US, not quite at war, but Canada and the US, there's a lot of headlines, right?

there's a lot of headlines, right? there's a lot of headlines, right? Tariffs and Canadians are getting very Tariffs and Canadians are getting very Tariffs and Canadians are getting very flexy about the maple leaf and about flexy about the maple leaf and about flexy about the maple leaf and about anti-Americanism anti-Americanism anti-Americanism uh because we feel threatened. And I've uh because we feel threatened. And I've uh because we feel threatened. And I've had numer by the time this airs, this had numer by the time this airs, this had numer by the time this airs, this could all be over. But, you know, I could all be over. But, you know, I could all be over. But, you know, I spent a lot of time in the United spent a lot of time in the United spent a lot of time in the United States. I get Canadians who pull me States. I get Canadians who pull me States. I get Canadians who pull me aside. It's like, "Oh, America, like, aside. It's like, "Oh, America, like, aside. It's like, "Oh, America, like, what's happening?" And you're there a what's happening?" And you're there a what's happening?" And you're there a lot and how bad is it? I'm like, "When lot and how bad is it? I'm like, "When lot and how bad is it? I'm like, "When I'm in the US, I like Americans." And it I'm in the US, I like Americans." And it I'm in the US, I like Americans." And it sounds an awful lot like you and me sounds an awful lot like you and me sounds an awful lot like you and me talking on this podcast. Like, guys, talking on this podcast. Like, guys, talking on this podcast. Like, guys, this is all floating above us, but if this is all floating above us, but if this is all floating above us, but if you really get down and you actually you really get down and you actually you really get down and you actually know, you know, these are often people know, you know, these are often people know, you know, these are often people who haven't visited the US in 10 years, who haven't visited the US in 10 years, who haven't visited the US in 10 years, they don't know. But when you're there they don't know. But when you're there they don't know. But when you're there and you're across the border on a and you're across the border on a and you're across the border on a regular basis, it's like super chill. regular basis, it's like super chill. regular basis, it's like super chill. It's like these are just people It's like these are just people It's like these are just people connecting with people. And so you're connecting with people. And so you're connecting with people. And so you're saying there's a similar vibe when it saying there's a similar vibe when it saying there's a similar vibe when it comes to pastoring a local church or or comes to pastoring a local church or or comes to pastoring a local church or or reflects on that a little bit. Yeah, I reflects on that a little bit. Yeah, I reflects on that a little bit. Yeah, I think that's a great comparison, Carrie, think that's a great comparison, Carrie, think that's a great comparison, Carrie, because it is it is easy to sort of come because it is it is easy to sort of come because it is it is easy to sort of come up with conclusions or to use labels on up with conclusions or to use labels on up with conclusions or to use labels on a person or to sort people into tribes.

a person or to sort people into tribes. a person or to sort people into tribes. I mean, we we do this. Lots of people I mean, we we do this. Lots of people I mean, we we do this. Lots of people have written on this. Jonathan Height have written on this. Jonathan Height have written on this. Jonathan Height has written on this. Alan Jacobs has has written on this. Alan Jacobs has has written on this. Alan Jacobs has written on like like it's it's a written on like like it's it's a written on like like it's it's a shortorthhand that our brains need to shortorthhand that our brains need to shortorthhand that our brains need to sort people into categories and camps. sort people into categories and camps. sort people into categories and camps. But I think it's it's ultimately it's But I think it's it's ultimately it's But I think it's it's ultimately it's lazy work. And as a pastor, I just don't lazy work. And as a pastor, I just don't lazy work. And as a pastor, I just don't want to enable that. I don't want to want to enable that. I don't want to want to enable that. I don't want to give them fodder for that. I want to be give them fodder for that. I want to be give them fodder for that. I want to be close to him. Now, sometimes I'll admit close to him. Now, sometimes I'll admit close to him. Now, sometimes I'll admit I can get too anxious about it and I can I can get too anxious about it and I can I can get too anxious about it and I can go too far where I'm trying to be with go too far where I'm trying to be with go too far where I'm trying to be with everyone so that everyone can know I'm everyone so that everyone can know I'm everyone so that everyone can know I'm I'm really a good guy. Um and and there I'm really a good guy. Um and and there I'm really a good guy. Um and and there is a way that leaders can overdo it and is a way that leaders can overdo it and is a way that leaders can overdo it and you become overly anxious and trying to you become overly anxious and trying to you become overly anxious and trying to control everybody's imp perception of control everybody's imp perception of control everybody's imp perception of you and you can't. Um but I I want to you and you can't. Um but I I want to you and you can't. Um but I I want to live with integrity. Like you said, I live with integrity. Like you said, I live with integrity. Like you said, I want to be the same person and I want to want to be the same person and I want to want to be the same person and I want to be with people so that they can know it. be with people so that they can know it. be with people so that they can know it. And you know what we want for our And you know what we want for our And you know what we want for our churches is that they become a churches is that they become a churches is that they become a close-knit community. Well, you know close-knit community. Well, you know close-knit community. Well, you know what close-knit communities do? They what close-knit communities do? They what close-knit communities do? They talk about each other. You know, and talk about each other. You know, and talk about each other. You know, and there's a bad form of that negative there's a bad form of that negative there's a bad form of that negative gossip, but you can gossip good news. I gossip, but you can gossip good news. I gossip, but you can gossip good news. I mean, marketing people call that buzz, mean, marketing people call that buzz, mean, marketing people call that buzz, right? You can gossip good news. And so, right? You can gossip good news. And so, right? You can gossip good news. And so, so if if you're in groups with people so if if you're in groups with people so if if you're in groups with people and they go, man, I I I've really seen and they go, man, I I I've really seen and they go, man, I I I've really seen these guys that the way that they these guys that the way that they these guys that the way that they interact with their kids or with one interact with their kids or with one interact with their kids or with one another, that that good news also another, that that good news also another, that that good news also spreads and that's helpful in building spreads and that's helpful in building spreads and that's helpful in building trust. Now, I imagine there's a trust. Now, I imagine there's a trust. Now, I imagine there's a threshold, right? Like you hear some threshold, right? Like you hear some threshold, right? Like you hear some negative chatter here or there. Um, do negative chatter here or there. Um, do negative chatter here or there. Um, do you have a threshold for what you tune you have a threshold for what you tune you have a threshold for what you tune out? Like what is acceptable out? Like what is acceptable out? Like what is acceptable um, bad frequencies and then where it's

um, bad frequencies and then where it's um, bad frequencies and then where it's like, okay, this deserves a response or like, okay, this deserves a response or like, okay, this deserves a response or we need to reply or we need to act. I'm we need to reply or we need to act. I'm we need to reply or we need to act. I'm wondering if you have um, trigger is a wondering if you have um, trigger is a wondering if you have um, trigger is a loaded word, but like a trigger that loaded word, but like a trigger that loaded word, but like a trigger that makes you go, "No, we take this makes you go, "No, we take this makes you go, "No, we take this seriously." I think it all comes down to seriously." I think it all comes down to seriously." I think it all comes down to the source. So, who's it coming from? So the source. So, who's it coming from? So the source. So, who's it coming from? So yeah, I I'll never act with uh um yeah, I I'll never act with uh um yeah, I I'll never act with uh um secondhand information, you know. So if secondhand information, you know. So if secondhand information, you know. So if someone this is what you know, um Peter someone this is what you know, um Peter someone this is what you know, um Peter Stiny and others, this is the the the Stiny and others, this is the the the Stiny and others, this is the the the Freriedman stuff about triangulation. Freriedman stuff about triangulation. Freriedman stuff about triangulation. You know, when when it's really between You know, when when it's really between You know, when when it's really between me and Suzie, but Susie didn't tell me me and Suzie, but Susie didn't tell me me and Suzie, but Susie didn't tell me about it. Instead, Nancy told me about about it. Instead, Nancy told me about about it. Instead, Nancy told me about it. You know, I go, well, I'm not it. You know, I go, well, I'm not it. You know, I go, well, I'm not dealing with that until Susie comes to dealing with that until Susie comes to dealing with that until Susie comes to talk to me about it. So it has to be talk to me about it. So it has to be talk to me about it. So it has to be firsthand. Number one. Number two, the firsthand. Number one. Number two, the firsthand. Number one. Number two, the person uh needs to have a certain kind person uh needs to have a certain kind person uh needs to have a certain kind of reputation, character, relationship. of reputation, character, relationship. of reputation, character, relationship. So I take most seriously the people I So I take most seriously the people I So I take most seriously the people I trust most uh you know deeply. Um and so trust most uh you know deeply. Um and so trust most uh you know deeply. Um and so there are longtime stakeholders at Rock there are longtime stakeholders at Rock there are longtime stakeholders at Rock Harbor that when they're you and I've Harbor that when they're you and I've Harbor that when they're you and I've made a few bad decisions already in two made a few bad decisions already in two made a few bad decisions already in two and a half years here, right? And and and a half years here, right? And and and a half years here, right? And and some miscalculations of oh, you know, a some miscalculations of oh, you know, a some miscalculations of oh, you know, a decision about stu a student ministry decision about stu a student ministry decision about stu a student ministry thing or a women's ministry thing. And thing or a women's ministry thing. And thing or a women's ministry thing. And when you make those decisions, you go, when you make those decisions, you go, when you make those decisions, you go, okay, wait a minute. Let's invite him okay, wait a minute. Let's invite him okay, wait a minute. Let's invite him into a meeting. Let's have a into a meeting. Let's have a into a meeting. Let's have a conversation about this. What am I conversation about this. What am I conversation about this. What am I missing? And I'm always trying to close missing? And I'm always trying to close missing? And I'm always trying to close the distance. But one of the worst the distance. But one of the worst the distance. But one of the worst things leaders can do is to make things leaders can do is to make things leaders can do is to make decisions from a distance. We have to be decisions from a distance. We have to be decisions from a distance. We have to be so careful about that because we're not so careful about that because we're not so careful about that because we're not proximate to every situation. But either proximate to every situation. But either proximate to every situation. But either we need to trust then the people who are

we need to trust then the people who are we need to trust then the people who are closest to the situation to make the closest to the situation to make the closest to the situation to make the decisions or we need to close the gap so decisions or we need to close the gap so decisions or we need to close the gap so that we can make the decision. But I've that we can make the decision. But I've that we can make the decision. But I've seen too many leaders, especially large seen too many leaders, especially large seen too many leaders, especially large church leaders, who want to be the church leaders, who want to be the church leaders, who want to be the ultimate decision maker, but they're not ultimate decision maker, but they're not ultimate decision maker, but they're not there's so there's so much distance there's so there's so much distance there's so there's so much distance between them and the situation, they're between them and the situation, they're between them and the situation, they're not making great decisions about it. You not making great decisions about it. You not making great decisions about it. You know, it's so funny. I was smiling for know, it's so funny. I was smiling for know, it's so funny. I was smiling for those of you who are watching YouTube uh those of you who are watching YouTube uh those of you who are watching YouTube uh when you were saying it all boils down when you were saying it all boils down when you were saying it all boils down to who because it brought me back to my to who because it brought me back to my to who because it brought me back to my lead pastor days and I'm sure my staff lead pastor days and I'm sure my staff lead pastor days and I'm sure my staff are still some of them are still in are still some of them are still in are still some of them are still in therapy over this but if they came to me therapy over this but if they came to me therapy over this but if they came to me and they said hey some people are saying and they said hey some people are saying and they said hey some people are saying yeah exactly my next word was okay Glenn yeah exactly my next word was okay Glenn yeah exactly my next word was okay Glenn who who and I would just keep going who who who and I would just keep going who who who and I would just keep going who until they either left my office and until they either left my office and until they either left my office and quit or and That was true. If I got quit or and That was true. If I got quit or and That was true. If I got stopped in the lobby and you know and stopped in the lobby and you know and stopped in the lobby and you know and someone said, "Hey, you know, people are someone said, "Hey, you know, people are someone said, "Hey, you know, people are not really happy." Well, like who? Who? not really happy." Well, like who? Who? not really happy." Well, like who? Who? Who? Is it you? Well, it's not me. It's Who? Is it you? Well, it's not me. It's Who? Is it you? Well, it's not me. It's just who? Who? And you know that. And I just who? Who? And you know that. And I just who? Who? And you know that. And I I said it in a nicer way than it sounds I said it in a nicer way than it sounds I said it in a nicer way than it sounds now. But when you really say, "Oh, good.

now. But when you really say, "Oh, good. now. But when you really say, "Oh, good. Oh, so it's her." Oh, I'll have a Oh, so it's her." Oh, I'll have a Oh, so it's her." Oh, I'll have a conversation with her. Or it's him. Oh, conversation with her. Or it's him. Oh, conversation with her. Or it's him. Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, tell them to come to yeah. Okay. Well, tell them to come to yeah. Okay. Well, tell them to come to me. Come directly to me. That shuts down me. Come directly to me. That shuts down me. Come directly to me. That shuts down gossip. And it like even in a big church gossip. And it like even in a big church gossip. And it like even in a big church like over a thousand thousands of people like over a thousand thousands of people like over a thousand thousands of people it'll shut down gossip because people it'll shut down gossip because people it'll shut down gossip because people know this isn't going anywhere. This know this isn't going anywhere. This know this isn't going anywhere. This isn't so anyway a little hack. Try who isn't so anyway a little hack. Try who isn't so anyway a little hack. Try who who who Yeah. Okay. And not like I'm who who Yeah. Okay. And not like I'm who who Yeah. Okay. And not like I'm taking names and these people are going taking names and these people are going taking names and these people are going to pay. But like listen we do not take to pay. But like listen we do not take to pay. But like listen we do not take anonymous threats here. We just don't we anonymous threats here. We just don't we anonymous threats here. We just don't we don't negotiate that way. You can't don't negotiate that way. You can't don't negotiate that way. You can't address a phantom problem. You can't address a phantom problem. You can't address a phantom problem. You can't fight a phantom enemy. You can't fight a phantom enemy. You can't fight a phantom enemy. You can't reconcile with the phantom enemy. You reconcile with the phantom enemy. You reconcile with the phantom enemy. You have we have to put faces and names and have we have to put faces and names and have we have to put faces and names and stories to this. So you've done a lot of stories to this. So you've done a lot of stories to this. So you've done a lot of research over the last 5 years on the research over the last 5 years on the research over the last 5 years on the state of mental health. Tell me the state of mental health. Tell me the state of mental health. Tell me the moment was there a tipping point where moment was there a tipping point where moment was there a tipping point where you realized like you already shared you realized like you already shared you realized like you already shared that one stat about drop in that one stat about drop in that one stat about drop in institutional trust but was there a institutional trust but was there a institutional trust but was there a moment where you're like oh wow this moment where you're like oh wow this moment where you're like oh wow this really is a crisis and what was it? take really is a crisis and what was it? take really is a crisis and what was it? take us to that, us to that, us to that, you know. So, when we did the research a you know. So, when we did the research a you know. So, when we did the research a few years ago, we designed it around few years ago, we designed it around few years ago, we designed it around eight challenges facing pastors. And I eight challenges facing pastors. And I eight challenges facing pastors. And I tried to to name these eight challenges tried to to name these eight challenges tried to to name these eight challenges as challenges that would have been true as challenges that would have been true as challenges that would have been true in in probably every era or at least the in in probably every era or at least the in in probably every era or at least the modern era of of ministry, you know. So, modern era of of ministry, you know. So, modern era of of ministry, you know. So, four for the pastor as an individual, four for the pastor as an individual, four for the pastor as an individual, four for the church. The ones that the four for the church. The ones that the four for the church. The ones that the ones facing the church, those felt like, ones facing the church, those felt like, ones facing the church, those felt like, yeah, that's not surprising. we're yeah, that's not surprising. we're yeah, that's not surprising. we're always going to wrestle with how do we always going to wrestle with how do we always going to wrestle with how do we do our mission in the world and how do do our mission in the world and how do do our mission in the world and how do we you know um fight for unity and all we you know um fight for unity and all we you know um fight for unity and all of that. The four for the pastor, the

of that. The four for the pastor, the of that. The four for the pastor, the one that really stood out to me was that one that really stood out to me was that one that really stood out to me was that the the this challenge of relationships. the the this challenge of relationships. the the this challenge of relationships. I didn't expect so many pastors to I didn't expect so many pastors to I didn't expect so many pastors to actually say how lonely they were or or actually say how lonely they were or or actually say how lonely they were or or to say how that they were that lonely. to say how that they were that lonely. to say how that they were that lonely. Um so just just for comparison you know Um so just just for comparison you know Um so just just for comparison you know so in 2015 um 42% of pastors said that so in 2015 um 42% of pastors said that so in 2015 um 42% of pastors said that they either frequently or sometimes felt they either frequently or sometimes felt they either frequently or sometimes felt lonely that has increased in the last lonely that has increased in the last lonely that has increased in the last couple years to 65% of pastors report couple years to 65% of pastors report couple years to 65% of pastors report feelings of loneliness and isolation. Uh feelings of loneliness and isolation. Uh feelings of loneliness and isolation. Uh that that's twothirds twothirds of that that's twothirds twothirds of that that's twothirds twothirds of pastors are dealing with a deep kind of pastors are dealing with a deep kind of pastors are dealing with a deep kind of loneliness and isolation. And I think loneliness and isolation. And I think loneliness and isolation. And I think many just anecdotally now when I did many just anecdotally now when I did many just anecdotally now when I did focus groups and then as I've traveled focus groups and then as I've traveled focus groups and then as I've traveled to do these roundts around the country to do these roundts around the country to do these roundts around the country even in the UK what I frequently hear is even in the UK what I frequently hear is even in the UK what I frequently hear is well I don't know the answer to this I I well I don't know the answer to this I I well I don't know the answer to this I I don't know what to do about this don't know what to do about this don't know what to do about this about what loneliness about the about what loneliness about the about what loneliness about the loneliness because they go I I just loneliness because they go I I just loneliness because they go I I just don't know if I can talk to anyone in my don't know if I can talk to anyone in my don't know if I can talk to anyone in my church and I just don't know I mean and church and I just don't know I mean and church and I just don't know I mean and and this is the thing about and this is the thing about and this is the thing about relationships in ministry and maybe this relationships in ministry and maybe this relationships in ministry and maybe this will be helpful for some of your will be helpful for some of your will be helpful for some of your listeners to think of it this way.

listeners to think of it this way. listeners to think of it this way. people in your church, whether they're people in your church, whether they're people in your church, whether they're on your staff or your eldership or your on your staff or your eldership or your on your staff or your eldership or your leaders or congregants, those leaders or congregants, those leaders or congregants, those relationships are not symmetrical. relationships are not symmetrical. relationships are not symmetrical. There's a bit of a power differential There's a bit of a power differential There's a bit of a power differential there. And so, at the end of the day, there. And so, at the end of the day, there. And so, at the end of the day, you can't ever take off the hat of, you can't ever take off the hat of, you can't ever take off the hat of, "Yeah, I'm the guy who stands up or I'm "Yeah, I'm the guy who stands up or I'm "Yeah, I'm the guy who stands up or I'm the gal who stands up and preaches." So, the gal who stands up and preaches." So, the gal who stands up and preaches." So, there's there's it's not symmetrical, there's there's it's not symmetrical, there's there's it's not symmetrical, but then secondly, they're not but then secondly, they're not but then secondly, they're not reciprocal. Sometimes they are. I mean, reciprocal. Sometimes they are. I mean, reciprocal. Sometimes they are. I mean, you might try to make it reciprocal, but you might try to make it reciprocal, but you might try to make it reciprocal, but odds are you're the person they'll call odds are you're the person they'll call odds are you're the person they'll call in a crisis, but you're not sure if in a crisis, but you're not sure if in a crisis, but you're not sure if they're the person you would call in a they're the person you would call in a they're the person you would call in a crisis. And I'm I'm all for closing that crisis. And I'm I'm all for closing that crisis. And I'm I'm all for closing that gap again and leveling that out as much gap again and leveling that out as much gap again and leveling that out as much as you can. And I'm grateful for mature as you can. And I'm grateful for mature as you can. And I'm grateful for mature believers in our church where that gap believers in our church where that gap believers in our church where that gap really is is closed. But I think for so really is is closed. But I think for so really is is closed. But I think for so many pastors, particularly young church many pastors, particularly young church many pastors, particularly young church planters, they go, I don't got I don't planters, they go, I don't got I don't planters, they go, I don't got I don't have mature people in my church. I don't have mature people in my church. I don't have mature people in my church. I don't have I have people who they're they're have I have people who they're they're have I have people who they're they're helping me plant the church because they helping me plant the church because they helping me plant the church because they have an ideal of what church can be and have an ideal of what church can be and have an ideal of what church can be and they don't crush yeah crush them pretty they don't crush yeah crush them pretty they don't crush yeah crush them pretty quick. So they they don't have a safe quick. So they they don't have a safe quick. So they they don't have a safe place for that. So what do you place for that. So what do you place for that. So what do you do about loneliness? I have decided that do about loneliness? I have decided that do about loneliness? I have decided that you I need a constellation of you I need a constellation of you I need a constellation of relationships. This is one of the most relationships. This is one of the most relationships. This is one of the most helpful insights I came across years ago helpful insights I came across years ago helpful insights I came across years ago to not make the mistake of looking for to not make the mistake of looking for to not make the mistake of looking for one north star, one wise mentor, one one north star, one wise mentor, one one north star, one wise mentor, one best friend, one north star. No, no, no.

best friend, one north star. No, no, no. best friend, one north star. No, no, no. Even sailors didn't navigate by a Even sailors didn't navigate by a Even sailors didn't navigate by a singular north star. They used a singular north star. They used a singular north star. They used a constellation. And I think we need a constellation. And I think we need a constellation. And I think we need a constellation of voices, a constellation constellation of voices, a constellation constellation of voices, a constellation of relationships in our lives. So, I of relationships in our lives. So, I of relationships in our lives. So, I have playfully used the Lord of the have playfully used the Lord of the have playfully used the Lord of the Rings thing. You know, you you need a Rings thing. You know, you you need a Rings thing. You know, you you need a Gandalf, you need a sage, maybe a few Gandalf, you need a sage, maybe a few Gandalf, you need a sage, maybe a few sages. Uh you need an Aragorn, someone sages. Uh you need an Aragorn, someone sages. Uh you need an Aragorn, someone who's a trutht teller and a nosayer, a who's a trutht teller and a nosayer, a who's a trutht teller and a nosayer, a king type figure, a royal figure. uh you king type figure, a royal figure. uh you king type figure, a royal figure. uh you you you need some peers, people who are you you need some peers, people who are you you need some peers, people who are who are pastors like you, but in other who are pastors like you, but in other who are pastors like you, but in other contexts, you know, you need some contexts, you know, you need some contexts, you know, you need some friends like Mary and Pippen and Sam friends like Mary and Pippen and Sam friends like Mary and Pippen and Sam Wise, you know, who will walk with you, Wise, you know, who will walk with you, Wise, you know, who will walk with you, but they don't actually know what it's but they don't actually know what it's but they don't actually know what it's like to do your your job. And then you like to do your your job. And then you like to do your your job. And then you need a healer, which you know, in Lord need a healer, which you know, in Lord need a healer, which you know, in Lord of the Rings, like Arwin or whatever. of the Rings, like Arwin or whatever. of the Rings, like Arwin or whatever. It's someone who that would be a It's someone who that would be a It's someone who that would be a therapist or a spiritual director or a therapist or a spiritual director or a therapist or a spiritual director or a counselor or a coach. So, I have all counselor or a coach. So, I have all counselor or a coach. So, I have all five of those. I have people in my life five of those. I have people in my life five of those. I have people in my life that when I need profound wisdom, I I'll that when I need profound wisdom, I I'll that when I need profound wisdom, I I'll I'll reach them out and I go reach out I'll reach them out and I go reach out I'll reach them out and I go reach out to them and go, "Hey, I need some to them and go, "Hey, I need some to them and go, "Hey, I need some insight about this." When we were at a insight about this." When we were at a insight about this." When we were at a crossroads about whether we should leave crossroads about whether we should leave crossroads about whether we should leave Colorado and and and step into this Colorado and and and step into this Colorado and and and step into this calling here at Rock Harbor, we called calling here at Rock Harbor, we called calling here at Rock Harbor, we called every sage we knew, you know, and and every sage we knew, you know, and and every sage we knew, you know, and and we're like, I'll buy you coffee. I'll we're like, I'll buy you coffee. I'll we're like, I'll buy you coffee. I'll zoom call. Let's do So, so we have sages zoom call. Let's do So, so we have sages zoom call. Let's do So, so we have sages in our life. I have people in my life in our life. I have people in my life in our life. I have people in my life that can tell me no. But I'll tell you that can tell me no. But I'll tell you that can tell me no. But I'll tell you the biggest lifeline for me, it's the the biggest lifeline for me, it's the the biggest lifeline for me, it's the peers, other pastors in other parts of peers, other pastors in other parts of peers, other pastors in other parts of the country. So there's there's three the country. So there's there's three the country. So there's there's three other pastors. One is Rich Feltus in other pastors. One is Rich Feltus in other pastors. One is Rich Feltus in Queens in New York City. One is a guy Queens in New York City. One is a guy Queens in New York City. One is a guy named Aaron Stern in Fort Collins, named Aaron Stern in Fort Collins, named Aaron Stern in Fort Collins, Colorado. And one is a guy named Sean Colorado. And one is a guy named Sean Colorado. And one is a guy named Sean Kennedy who's in Alabama. Sean and Rich Kennedy who's in Alabama. Sean and Rich Kennedy who's in Alabama. Sean and Rich were college roommates. Aaron and I were were college roommates. Aaron and I were were college roommates. Aaron and I were longtime um ministry associates in longtime um ministry associates in longtime um ministry associates in Colorado at one time. And the four of us Colorado at one time. And the four of us Colorado at one time. And the four of us have been on a monthly Zoom call for

have been on a monthly Zoom call for have been on a monthly Zoom call for eight years. Eight years. Wow. And and eight years. Eight years. Wow. And and eight years. Eight years. Wow. And and it's a 90 60 to 90 minute Zoom call. We it's a 90 60 to 90 minute Zoom call. We it's a 90 60 to 90 minute Zoom call. We go around the horn. How's everybody? We go around the horn. How's everybody? We go around the horn. How's everybody? We talk about marriage. We talk about talk about marriage. We talk about talk about marriage. We talk about personal life. to talk about ministry. personal life. to talk about ministry. personal life. to talk about ministry. And then in between those Zoom calls, And then in between those Zoom calls, And then in between those Zoom calls, we're sending, you know, the Marco Polo we're sending, you know, the Marco Polo we're sending, you know, the Marco Polo video messaging platform or we're video messaging platform or we're video messaging platform or we're texting each other. Uh we're sometimes texting each other. Uh we're sometimes texting each other. Uh we're sometimes it's exchanging resources and best it's exchanging resources and best it's exchanging resources and best ideas, best practices. Sometimes it's ideas, best practices. Sometimes it's ideas, best practices. Sometimes it's guys, I'm really struggling mental guys, I'm really struggling mental guys, I'm really struggling mental health or you know, and knowing that you health or you know, and knowing that you health or you know, and knowing that you don't have to give context behind it don't have to give context behind it don't have to give context behind it because they get it. That's the lifeline because they get it. That's the lifeline because they get it. That's the lifeline and that's the piece I think most and that's the piece I think most and that's the piece I think most pastors are missing is that peer pastors are missing is that peer pastors are missing is that peer relationship. Well, and you knew each relationship. Well, and you knew each relationship. Well, and you knew each other before you became authors and other before you became authors and other before you became authors and pastors of larger or influential pastors of larger or influential pastors of larger or influential churches, which I think really happened. churches, which I think really happened. churches, which I think really happened. So, I mean, some of those names are So, I mean, some of those names are So, I mean, some of those names are known names. What would you say to the known names. What would you say to the known names. What would you say to the pastor pastoring a church of 150 who's pastor pastoring a church of 150 who's pastor pastoring a church of 150 who's like rich probably isn't going to return like rich probably isn't going to return like rich probably isn't going to return my calls. What would you would you and my calls. What would you would you and my calls. What would you would you and and Rich would Rich is nice, but yeah. and Rich would Rich is nice, but yeah. and Rich would Rich is nice, but yeah. Okay, let's not throw Rich under the bus Okay, let's not throw Rich under the bus Okay, let's not throw Rich under the bus here on this podcast, okay? Rich is a here on this podcast, okay? Rich is a here on this podcast, okay? Rich is a super nice guy. But, you know, for those super nice guy. But, you know, for those super nice guy. But, you know, for those of us who don't have well-known friends, of us who don't have well-known friends, of us who don't have well-known friends, and I I did the same thing. Every major and I I did the same thing. Every major and I I did the same thing. Every major life decision I've made in the last 15 life decision I've made in the last 15 life decision I've made in the last 15 years, I've reached out to anyone that I years, I've reached out to anyone that I years, I've reached out to anyone that I thought was wiser than me, including in thought was wiser than me, including in thought was wiser than me, including in a season I'm in now where I'm thinking a season I'm in now where I'm thinking a season I'm in now where I'm thinking about, you know, the next decade and about, you know, the next decade and about, you know, the next decade and what's ahead. Uh, man, that wise counsel what's ahead. Uh, man, that wise counsel what's ahead. Uh, man, that wise counsel is so valuable. So, what would you say is so valuable. So, what would you say is so valuable. So, what would you say though to the person pastoring a church though to the person pastoring a church though to the person pastoring a church of 150 who does not have access to quote of 150 who does not have access to quote of 150 who does not have access to quote famous people? I don't think it's about

famous people? I don't think it's about famous people? I don't think it's about famous people and and as you pointed out famous people and and as you pointed out famous people and and as you pointed out I mean Rich and I yes we do write and I mean Rich and I yes we do write and I mean Rich and I yes we do write and all of that stuff but but and the all of that stuff but but and the all of that stuff but but and the friendship did begin before you know we friendship did begin before you know we friendship did begin before you know we were we were doing those things but it's were we were doing those things but it's were we were doing those things but it's more about longevity so that's why he more about longevity so that's why he more about longevity so that's why he chose his old college roommate and I chose his old college roommate and I chose his old college roommate and I chose a guy that I had known since my I chose a guy that I had known since my I chose a guy that I had known since my I began ministry in my 20 early 20s Aaron began ministry in my 20 early 20s Aaron began ministry in my 20 early 20s Aaron Stern and and that the two those two Stern and and that the two those two Stern and and that the two those two bonds kind of made made the dynamic bonds kind of made made the dynamic bonds kind of made made the dynamic work. So, I would just say think of the work. So, I would just say think of the work. So, I would just say think of the people that have known you uh before you people that have known you uh before you people that have known you uh before you were in the role you were in. Maybe it's were in the role you were in. Maybe it's were in the role you were in. Maybe it's someone you went to college with. Maybe someone you went to college with. Maybe someone you went to college with. Maybe it's someone you went to seminary with. it's someone you went to seminary with. it's someone you went to seminary with. Um typically some some bit of history Um typically some some bit of history Um typically some some bit of history really helps. I This is going to be really helps. I This is going to be really helps. I This is going to be maybe controversial. I love city pastor maybe controversial. I love city pastor maybe controversial. I love city pastor networks and I'm in one and I'm on the networks and I'm in one and I'm on the networks and I'm in one and I'm on the leadership team of it, you know, so I leadership team of it, you know, so I leadership team of it, you know, so I say this carefully and I'm try we're say this carefully and I'm try we're say this carefully and I'm try we're trying to help one another. But I don't trying to help one another. But I don't trying to help one another. But I don't think those are always the answer think those are always the answer think those are always the answer because you're relating to one another because you're relating to one another because you're relating to one another with some edge of competition or rivalry with some edge of competition or rivalry with some edge of competition or rivalry or even comparison. You know, it's it's or even comparison. You know, it's it's or even comparison. You know, it's it's a So, ideally, I think it works best if a So, ideally, I think it works best if a So, ideally, I think it works best if you are with people who are outside of you are with people who are outside of you are with people who are outside of your context. You're not fishing in the your context. You're not fishing in the your context. You're not fishing in the same pond. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

same pond. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. same pond. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, we've all seen the stat now for Well, we've all seen the stat now for Well, we've all seen the stat now for three or four years where depending on three or four years where depending on three or four years where depending on the season, 30ish% to 42% of pastors the season, 30ish% to 42% of pastors the season, 30ish% to 42% of pastors have given serious consideration to have given serious consideration to have given serious consideration to leaving full-time ministry, not quitting leaving full-time ministry, not quitting leaving full-time ministry, not quitting their day job, just like I'm out tapping their day job, just like I'm out tapping their day job, just like I'm out tapping out. I'm going to go sell cars, uh, out. I'm going to go sell cars, uh, out. I'm going to go sell cars, uh, start another company, something like start another company, something like start another company, something like that. Um, I would love to know from your that. Um, I would love to know from your that. Um, I would love to know from your perspective because you are acquainted perspective because you are acquainted perspective because you are acquainted with that research and a lot of data with that research and a lot of data with that research and a lot of data around mental health. What are the around mental health. What are the around mental health. What are the factors that you think have because I factors that you think have because I factors that you think have because I thought it would go away as soon as thought it would go away as soon as thought it would go away as soon as COVID went away. Uh-uh. Um, what's COVID went away. Uh-uh. Um, what's COVID went away. Uh-uh. Um, what's feeding that stat? Well, we Bara did feeding that stat? Well, we Bara did feeding that stat? Well, we Bara did follow up with pastors to ask them about follow up with pastors to ask them about follow up with pastors to ask them about it and to rank the stress the, you know, it and to rank the stress the, you know, it and to rank the stress the, you know, the factors in it. The number one the factors in it. The number one the factors in it. The number one factor, it's a bit of a catch-all, but factor, it's a bit of a catch-all, but factor, it's a bit of a catch-all, but the number one factor is the immense the number one factor is the immense the number one factor is the immense stress of the job. Yes. And I you know stress of the job. Yes. And I you know stress of the job. Yes. And I you know and I I mean Carrie this is the thing and I I mean Carrie this is the thing and I I mean Carrie this is the thing for pastors it's very hard to explain to for pastors it's very hard to explain to for pastors it's very hard to explain to someone who's not in this seat. Now I I someone who's not in this seat. Now I I someone who's not in this seat. Now I I also want to be careful there's CEOs also want to be careful there's CEOs also want to be careful there's CEOs there's people who actually the people there's people who actually the people there's people who actually the people that I found a lot of um sympatico with that I found a lot of um sympatico with that I found a lot of um sympatico with is entrepreneurs and CEOs because they is entrepreneurs and CEOs because they is entrepreneurs and CEOs because they get it um because they they also have to get it um because they they also have to get it um because they they also have to wear many hats you know and and have to wear many hats you know and and have to wear many hats you know and and have to function in areas where they don't function in areas where they don't function in areas where they don't actually have the competencies for it.

actually have the competencies for it. actually have the competencies for it. They weren't actually trained for X Y They weren't actually trained for X Y They weren't actually trained for X Y and Z. So there there are some overlap and Z. So there there are some overlap and Z. So there there are some overlap there but but I think what pastors mean there but but I think what pastors mean there but but I think what pastors mean by the immense stress of the job is the by the immense stress of the job is the by the immense stress of the job is the kind of stacking expectations that have kind of stacking expectations that have kind of stacking expectations that have happened. So it used to be in one era happened. So it used to be in one era happened. So it used to be in one era the pastor just needed to be a Bible the pastor just needed to be a Bible the pastor just needed to be a Bible expert. Then the pastor needed to be an expert. Then the pastor needed to be an expert. Then the pastor needed to be an organizational leadership guru. You know organizational leadership guru. You know organizational leadership guru. You know they needed to they needed to be able to they needed to they needed to be able to they needed to they needed to be able to write articles for Harvard Business write articles for Harvard Business write articles for Harvard Business Review. You know then it was like no Review. You know then it was like no Review. You know then it was like no actually they need to be trauma actually they need to be trauma actually they need to be trauma informed. They need to be you know informed. They need to be you know informed. They need to be you know almost like a therapist you know as they almost like a therapist you know as they almost like a therapist you know as they relate to people and as they talk about relate to people and as they talk about relate to people and as they talk about subjects. And then it's like, no, subjects. And then it's like, no, subjects. And then it's like, no, actually they need to be social actually they need to be social actually they need to be social activists. They need to know exactly how activists. They need to know exactly how activists. They need to know exactly how to mobilize this community for to mobilize this community for to mobilize this community for volunteerism and engagement in the volunteerism and engagement in the volunteerism and engagement in the community. All of those things are community. All of those things are community. All of those things are justifiable and even good, but it's not justifiable and even good, but it's not justifiable and even good, but it's not as if those expectations have swapped as if those expectations have swapped as if those expectations have swapped out. It's that they've stacked higher. out. It's that they've stacked higher. out. It's that they've stacked higher. And so, so the pastor today has to be And so, so the pastor today has to be And so, so the pastor today has to be all of those things at once um in in all of those things at once um in in all of those things at once um in in various modes. And I I feel that. I feel various modes. And I I feel that. I feel various modes. And I I feel that. I feel there's parts of God. You're a there's parts of God. You're a there's parts of God. You're a practitioner. So, what do you do about practitioner. So, what do you do about practitioner. So, what do you do about that?

that? that? I mean, I I feel that I feel the like, I mean, I I feel that I feel the like, I mean, I I feel that I feel the like, wait, I'm supposed to figure out how to wait, I'm supposed to figure out how to wait, I'm supposed to figure out how to run a a campaign, a capital campaign, or run a a campaign, a capital campaign, or run a a campaign, a capital campaign, or I'm supposed to figure out how to do I'm supposed to figure out how to do I'm supposed to figure out how to do like I I wasn't trained on on donor like I I wasn't trained on on donor like I I wasn't trained on on donor development. I don't even want know if I development. I don't even want know if I development. I don't even want know if I want to think of it as donor want to think of it as donor want to think of it as donor development, you know? So, I I think the development, you know? So, I I think the development, you know? So, I I think the other what I feel a lot is not only other what I feel a lot is not only other what I feel a lot is not only those stacking expectations, but then I those stacking expectations, but then I those stacking expectations, but then I think, wait a minute, what's the think, wait a minute, what's the think, wait a minute, what's the Christian way to do this? I'm I'm Christian way to do this? I'm I'm Christian way to do this? I'm I'm wrestling with my own theological wrestling with my own theological wrestling with my own theological pressures in my own brain of like, uh, pressures in my own brain of like, uh, pressures in my own brain of like, uh, is there a what what's the right way to is there a what what's the right way to is there a what what's the right way to do this? And so we're kind of riddled do this? And so we're kind of riddled do this? And so we're kind of riddled with this anxiety of there is a right with this anxiety of there is a right with this anxiety of there is a right and a wrong way, a Jesus way and a a a and a wrong way, a Jesus way and a a a and a wrong way, a Jesus way and a a a devil's way of going about these things devil's way of going about these things devil's way of going about these things and and we always want to do it right. and and we always want to do it right. and and we always want to do it right. So I think what's helped me, it's funny So I think what's helped me, it's funny So I think what's helped me, it's funny because I I literally was journaling because I I literally was journaling because I I literally was journaling this this morning. I have to remind this this morning. I have to remind this this morning. I have to remind myself myself myself repeatedly, I don't have to be awesome repeatedly, I don't have to be awesome repeatedly, I don't have to be awesome at everything. at everything. at everything. and and I have to I have to be willing and and I have to I have to be willing and and I have to I have to be willing to accept I have to rightsize myself to to accept I have to rightsize myself to to accept I have to rightsize myself to the role and to say I'm gonna live with the role and to say I'm gonna live with the role and to say I'm gonna live with this. I'm gonna be the best that I can this. I'm gonna be the best that I can this. I'm gonna be the best that I can and I'm gonna have a growth mindset and and I'm gonna have a growth mindset and and I'm gonna have a growth mindset and I'm going to try to get better. All of I'm going to try to get better. All of I'm going to try to get better. All of those things is true. Um but it's a those things is true. Um but it's a those things is true. Um but it's a false belief to think that I have to be false belief to think that I have to be false belief to think that I have to be awesome at everything. Uh it's even and awesome at everything. Uh it's even and awesome at everything. Uh it's even and I I I love let's take something that I I I I love let's take something that I I I I love let's take something that I do feel, you know, good about. I love do feel, you know, good about. I love do feel, you know, good about. I love preaching. I love communicating. But preaching. I love communicating. But preaching. I love communicating. But even so, I've taken off the false belief even so, I've taken off the false belief even so, I've taken off the false belief that every time I speak it has to be that every time I speak it has to be that every time I speak it has to be brilliant. you know, you know what? It's brilliant. you know, you know what? It's brilliant. you know, you know what? It's okay. It's okay if it's not. It's okay okay. It's okay if it's not. It's okay okay. It's okay if it's not. It's okay if that was like average, you know. Um, if that was like average, you know. Um, if that was like average, you know. Um, and I some of that internal pressure,

and I some of that internal pressure, and I some of that internal pressure, depending on how, you know, different p depending on how, you know, different p depending on how, you know, different p people are wired, some of that's an people are wired, some of that's an people are wired, some of that's an internal pressure we're putting on internal pressure we're putting on internal pressure we're putting on ourselves. Some of it is external from ourselves. Some of it is external from ourselves. Some of it is external from from the pastor, but I'll never forget from the pastor, but I'll never forget from the pastor, but I'll never forget you, Eugene Peterson years ago when he you, Eugene Peterson years ago when he you, Eugene Peterson years ago when he wrote about we have to teach people what wrote about we have to teach people what wrote about we have to teach people what a pastor is because people don't have a a pastor is because people don't have a a pastor is because people don't have a category for it. Um, and I would go a category for it. Um, and I would go a category for it. Um, and I would go a step further and just say you have to step further and just say you have to step further and just say you have to teach people what kind of pastor you teach people what kind of pastor you teach people what kind of pastor you are. So you you might be the you might are. So you you might be the you might are. So you you might be the you might be the, you know, and you can name the be the, you know, and you can name the be the, you know, and you can name the archetypes out there. You might be the archetypes out there. You might be the archetypes out there. You might be the this kind of pastor. That's okay. Be the this kind of pastor. That's okay. Be the this kind of pastor. That's okay. Be the one that God has called you to be. Be one that God has called you to be. Be one that God has called you to be. Be the best most faithful version of that the best most faithful version of that the best most faithful version of that that you can and then help people that you can and then help people that you can and then help people understand what they've got in you. So I understand what they've got in you. So I understand what they've got in you. So I know you've only been at Rock Harbor for know you've only been at Rock Harbor for know you've only been at Rock Harbor for a couple of years, but prior to that you a couple of years, but prior to that you a couple of years, but prior to that you were at a mega church uh and was a c you were at a mega church uh and was a c you were at a mega church uh and was a c you were a campus pastor. So my question is were a campus pastor. So my question is were a campus pastor. So my question is why haven't you quit? Wow. Yeah. And you know the the church Wow. Yeah. And you know the the church the mega church I was at in Colorado the the mega church I was at in Colorado the the mega church I was at in Colorado the founding senior pastor had a really founding senior pastor had a really founding senior pastor had a really public moral failure in 2006. Um and public moral failure in 2006. Um and public moral failure in 2006. Um and then you can say what it was. Yeah. It then you can say what it was. Yeah. It then you can say what it was. Yeah. It was Ted it was Ted Hagard. People will was Ted it was Ted Hagard. People will was Ted it was Ted Hagard. People will know that name. It was a long time ago.

know that name. It was a long time ago. know that name. It was a long time ago. And then and then 13 months after that And then and then 13 months after that And then and then 13 months after that in 2007 there was a shooting that in 2007 there was a shooting that in 2007 there was a shooting that happened on our campus and two teenage happened on our campus and two teenage happened on our campus and two teenage girls lost their lives that day. So girls lost their lives that day. So girls lost their lives that day. So definitely hardship uh and transition definitely hardship uh and transition definitely hardship uh and transition and turbulence. I think the thing that and turbulence. I think the thing that and turbulence. I think the thing that has kept me as a community of friends. has kept me as a community of friends. has kept me as a community of friends. Um I was really really fortunate to Um I was really really fortunate to Um I was really really fortunate to those years in my 20s and 30s to have those years in my 20s and 30s to have those years in my 20s and 30s to have been with people that we had known each been with people that we had known each been with people that we had known each other for a long time. We is essentially other for a long time. We is essentially other for a long time. We is essentially grown up in adulthood together getting grown up in adulthood together getting grown up in adulthood together getting married at the same time and not married at the same time and not married at the same time and not everybody has that but we were we had everybody has that but we were we had everybody has that but we were we had that gift. I I think the other part of that gift. I I think the other part of that gift. I I think the other part of it that um you know maybe 12 13 years it that um you know maybe 12 13 years it that um you know maybe 12 13 years ago Carrie is recognizing that I have ago Carrie is recognizing that I have ago Carrie is recognizing that I have agency over more parts of my life than I agency over more parts of my life than I agency over more parts of my life than I thought. And this is the thing pastors thought. And this is the thing pastors thought. And this is the thing pastors don't get. So mental health I I did my don't get. So mental health I I did my don't get. So mental health I I did my my my doctoral work on hope and how my my doctoral work on hope and how my my doctoral work on hope and how Christians experience hope in the Christians experience hope in the Christians experience hope in the context of the rituals of worship and context of the rituals of worship and context of the rituals of worship and blah blah blah. But one of the pieces of blah blah blah. But one of the pieces of blah blah blah. But one of the pieces of that was about agency. When you when that was about agency. When you when that was about agency. When you when when you study hope, hope even from a when you study hope, hope even from a when you study hope, hope even from a secular perspective is it's not possible secular perspective is it's not possible secular perspective is it's not possible to have hope without activating your to have hope without activating your to have hope without activating your agency. If people feel like they they agency. If people feel like they they agency. If people feel like they they cannot act or they cannot change cannot act or they cannot change cannot act or they cannot change anything about their situations, you're anything about their situations, you're anything about their situations, you're immediately going to live in despair. I immediately going to live in despair. I immediately going to live in despair. I think so much of this depression mental think so much of this depression mental think so much of this depression mental health crisis for pastors is we have health crisis for pastors is we have health crisis for pastors is we have convinced ourselves that we have zero convinced ourselves that we have zero convinced ourselves that we have zero agency over our lives. And that's just agency over our lives. And that's just agency over our lives. And that's just not true. There's so many things you you not true. There's so many things you you not true. There's so many things you you can adjust your schedule, you can adjust can adjust your schedule, you can adjust can adjust your schedule, you can adjust your workout, you can adjust who you your workout, you can adjust who you your workout, you can adjust who you meet with, you can I mean, and so my meet with, you can I mean, and so my meet with, you can I mean, and so my wife and I, you know, 12 13 years ago,

wife and I, you know, 12 13 years ago, wife and I, you know, 12 13 years ago, we wrote this book that the book came we wrote this book that the book came we wrote this book that the book came out 2 years ago, but 12 or 13 years ago, out 2 years ago, but 12 or 13 years ago, out 2 years ago, but 12 or 13 years ago, we started doing this retreat and we we started doing this retreat and we we started doing this retreat and we called it the the intentional year. And called it the the intentional year. And called it the the intentional year. And it was our way of saying, let's not be it was our way of saying, let's not be it was our way of saying, let's not be reactive. Let's not be how can we put reactive. Let's not be how can we put reactive. Let's not be how can we put the big boulders in our schedule, so to the big boulders in our schedule, so to the big boulders in our schedule, so to speak, you know? So, so what are what speak, you know? So, so what are what speak, you know? So, so what are what are the pieces we want to make sure we are the pieces we want to make sure we are the pieces we want to make sure we have? And even relationally, we would do have? And even relationally, we would do have? And even relationally, we would do this map of concentric circles and go, this map of concentric circles and go, this map of concentric circles and go, who are the people that we want to who are the people that we want to who are the people that we want to invest in intentionally? There's going invest in intentionally? There's going invest in intentionally? There's going to be room margin for others that are to be room margin for others that are to be room margin for others that are asking us. And that that's great, too. asking us. And that that's great, too. asking us. And that that's great, too. But if we don't have some sense of I'm But if we don't have some sense of I'm But if we don't have some sense of I'm going to intentionally choose, you know, going to intentionally choose, you know, going to intentionally choose, you know, rhythms in our prayer life, our rest, rhythms in our prayer life, our rest, rhythms in our prayer life, our rest, our renewal, our relationships, and our our renewal, our relationships, and our our renewal, our relationships, and our work. Those five spheres. If we don't work. Those five spheres. If we don't work. Those five spheres. If we don't intentionally choose that, it will be intentionally choose that, it will be intentionally choose that, it will be chosen for us. And then we'll grow to chosen for us. And then we'll grow to chosen for us. And then we'll grow to resent it. resent it. resent it. I'm concurring with you and yet I got to I'm concurring with you and yet I got to I'm concurring with you and yet I got to ask on behalf of those. It's like, well, ask on behalf of those. It's like, well, ask on behalf of those. It's like, well, you don't know my board, Glenn. You you don't know my board, Glenn. You you don't know my board, Glenn. You don't know my congregation. They have don't know my congregation. They have don't know my congregation. They have expectations that I'm on call 247. I expectations that I'm on call 247. I expectations that I'm on call 247. I don't know that I have any agency. What don't know that I have any agency. What don't know that I have any agency. What do you say to that objection?

do you say to that objection? do you say to that objection? Uh, send them this podcast. Send them Uh, send them this podcast. Send them Uh, send them this podcast. Send them send them Carrie your show and and help send them Carrie your show and and help send them Carrie your show and and help them understand that you're not a them understand that you're not a them understand that you're not a machine. And if they they can either machine. And if they they can either machine. And if they they can either have you for the long term or they can have you for the long term or they can have you for the long term or they can have you for the short term with a have you for the short term with a have you for the short term with a spectacular failure and and and fracture spectacular failure and and and fracture spectacular failure and and and fracture because all of this treasure that we because all of this treasure that we because all of this treasure that we carry is in earthn vessels, Paul said. carry is in earthn vessels, Paul said. carry is in earthn vessels, Paul said. And this is the thing we have to And this is the thing we have to And this is the thing we have to realize. Paul himself needed a community realize. Paul himself needed a community realize. Paul himself needed a community of people around him. Paul himself uh of people around him. Paul himself uh of people around him. Paul himself uh needed these these places of of recovery needed these these places of of recovery needed these these places of of recovery and strength. So I I like to say and strength. So I I like to say and strength. So I I like to say resilience is really about two things. resilience is really about two things. resilience is really about two things. It's about recovery and it's about It's about recovery and it's about It's about recovery and it's about recalibration. And those are two recalibration. And those are two recalibration. And those are two different things. Recovery requires different things. Recovery requires different things. Recovery requires taking, you know, assessment of your taking, you know, assessment of your taking, you know, assessment of your soul um of your seasons. We can talk soul um of your seasons. We can talk soul um of your seasons. We can talk about that. Recalibration is some of the about that. Recalibration is some of the about that. Recalibration is some of the things we've talked about. And so I I things we've talked about. And so I I things we've talked about. And so I I would um you know, I would invite you to would um you know, I would invite you to would um you know, I would invite you to to maybe just have that conversation to maybe just have that conversation to maybe just have that conversation with your board. Just say, "Hey, I need with your board. Just say, "Hey, I need with your board. Just say, "Hey, I need help. um I I need your help so that I help. um I I need your help so that I help. um I I need your help so that I can be the pastor you want me to be and can be the pastor you want me to be and can be the pastor you want me to be and that God has called me to be in the long that God has called me to be in the long that God has called me to be in the long term, but here's how I need your help.

term, but here's how I need your help. term, but here's how I need your help. And there's those are powerful words to And there's those are powerful words to And there's those are powerful words to say, I need your help. But what about say, I need your help. But what about say, I need your help. But what about people who are afraid that they will people who are afraid that they will people who are afraid that they will appear weak when they say I need your appear weak when they say I need your appear weak when they say I need your help or I can't hack it. I can't do it. help or I can't hack it. I can't do it. help or I can't hack it. I can't do it. I don't have what it takes. I don't have what it takes. I don't have what it takes. I do understand that first of all. I I do understand that first of all. I I do understand that first of all. I relate to that. I I spent uh a lot of relate to that. I I spent uh a lot of relate to that. I I spent uh a lot of years as associate senior pastor at that years as associate senior pastor at that years as associate senior pastor at that mega church in Colorado and and we led I mega church in Colorado and and we led I mega church in Colorado and and we led I led for 10 years this a campus that was led for 10 years this a campus that was led for 10 years this a campus that was all live preaching even contextualized. all live preaching even contextualized. all live preaching even contextualized. It didn't feel like a you know cookie It didn't feel like a you know cookie It didn't feel like a you know cookie cutter campus. we had a lot of cutter campus. we had a lot of cutter campus. we had a lot of leadership um room and yet when I leadership um room and yet when I leadership um room and yet when I stepped into the role at Rock Harbor two stepped into the role at Rock Harbor two stepped into the role at Rock Harbor two and a half years ago, I felt this and a half years ago, I felt this and a half years ago, I felt this immense pressure to prove that I could immense pressure to prove that I could immense pressure to prove that I could level up, you know, and so I I level up, you know, and so I I level up, you know, and so I I understand that. I understand that understand that. I understand that understand that. I understand that pressure from pastors to say, "Okay, you pressure from pastors to say, "Okay, you pressure from pastors to say, "Okay, you got to show that you can level up." I got to show that you can level up." I got to show that you can level up." I had a moment, Carrie, about halfway had a moment, Carrie, about halfway had a moment, Carrie, about halfway through my first year at Rock Harbor through my first year at Rock Harbor through my first year at Rock Harbor where I was feeling that pressure to where I was feeling that pressure to where I was feeling that pressure to wait on my chest. We had to meet wait on my chest. We had to meet wait on my chest. We had to meet year-end giving goals. we had to, you year-end giving goals. we had to, you year-end giving goals. we had to, you know, and I I knew there were some know, and I I knew there were some know, and I I knew there were some people who thought as soon as I came people who thought as soon as I came people who thought as soon as I came here, boom, the church was going to here, boom, the church was going to here, boom, the church was going to return to its glory days. And it it return to its glory days. And it it return to its glory days. And it it grew, but it grew very steadily and grew, but it grew very steadily and grew, but it grew very steadily and incrementally, not exponentially. So, I incrementally, not exponentially. So, I incrementally, not exponentially. So, I took a risk and I went to the chairman took a risk and I went to the chairman took a risk and I went to the chairman of our board and I said, "Can I be of our board and I said, "Can I be of our board and I said, "Can I be vulnerable with you for a moment?" I vulnerable with you for a moment?" I vulnerable with you for a moment?" I said, "I I feel like you guys really said, "I I feel like you guys really said, "I I feel like you guys really want the church to be much bigger than want the church to be much bigger than want the church to be much bigger than it is now and that we're not getting it is now and that we're not getting it is now and that we're not getting there quick enough." And he just looked there quick enough." And he just looked there quick enough." And he just looked at me and he goes, "Glenn, it never at me and he goes, "Glenn, it never at me and he goes, "Glenn, it never needs to be any better than it is right

needs to be any better than it is right needs to be any better than it is right now." And I almost started I almost now." And I almost started I almost now." And I almost started I almost started crying and he goes, "Of course started crying and he goes, "Of course started crying and he goes, "Of course we want to reach more people and all we want to reach more people and all we want to reach more people and all this stuff, but I just want you to know this stuff, but I just want you to know this stuff, but I just want you to know this is beautiful and it never needs to this is beautiful and it never needs to this is beautiful and it never needs to be any better than it is right now." And be any better than it is right now." And be any better than it is right now." And I felt the release. There's there's such I felt the release. There's there's such I felt the release. There's there's such the vulnerability is a risk. And you the vulnerability is a risk. And you the vulnerability is a risk. And you know, we we learned this from the 12 know, we we learned this from the 12 know, we we learned this from the 12 steps from the all of the recovery steps from the all of the recovery steps from the all of the recovery communities. you take that risk of communities. you take that risk of communities. you take that risk of confessing weakness, you'll actually confessing weakness, you'll actually confessing weakness, you'll actually find freedom on the other side of it. find freedom on the other side of it. find freedom on the other side of it. Why did you choose the chairman of the Why did you choose the chairman of the Why did you choose the chairman of the board to talk to? He had he was one of board to talk to? He had he was one of board to talk to? He had he was one of the key people recruiting me out here. the key people recruiting me out here. the key people recruiting me out here. So, I knew he was for me. I knew he was So, I knew he was for me. I knew he was So, I knew he was for me. I knew he was for me. Uh I knew he I knew he wouldn't for me. Uh I knew he I knew he wouldn't for me. Uh I knew he I knew he wouldn't weaponize that vulnerability against me. weaponize that vulnerability against me. weaponize that vulnerability against me. That's an important thing. Um and I knew That's an important thing. Um and I knew That's an important thing. Um and I knew he could do something about it, you he could do something about it, you he could do something about it, you know, with the rest of the guys. So, he know, with the rest of the guys. So, he know, with the rest of the guys. So, he did. He he spoke to and one by one I did. He he spoke to and one by one I did. He he spoke to and one by one I started getting texts or they'd pull me started getting texts or they'd pull me started getting texts or they'd pull me aside go Glenn I heard that you're aside go Glenn I heard that you're aside go Glenn I heard that you're feeling this weight brother we love you feeling this weight brother we love you feeling this weight brother we love you we're for you you know and it it just we're for you you know and it it just we're for you you know and it it just made I slept better at night you know made I slept better at night you know made I slept better at night you know you know I I think there was such wisdom you know I I think there was such wisdom you know I I think there was such wisdom in that because that is how I would in that because that is how I would in that because that is how I would uh I always had great chairs of the uh I always had great chairs of the uh I always had great chairs of the board um we we were very fortunate that board um we we were very fortunate that board um we we were very fortunate that way but it makes intuitive sense to me way but it makes intuitive sense to me way but it makes intuitive sense to me to go to a person before you go to a to go to a person before you go to a to go to a person before you go to a board because there there's just wisdom board because there there's just wisdom board because there there's just wisdom in that and then you know what you're in that and then you know what you're in that and then you know what you're going to face. So I think that's a going to face. So I think that's a going to face. So I think that's a really practical thing. All right. One really practical thing. All right. One really practical thing. All right. One of the the stats that really has my

of the the stats that really has my of the the stats that really has my heart like when I read it I just every heart like when I read it I just every heart like when I read it I just every time I see it I just can't believe it. time I see it I just can't believe it. time I see it I just can't believe it. But when you look at the divide in every But when you look at the divide in every But when you look at the divide in every category in the mental health of leaders category in the mental health of leaders category in the mental health of leaders over 45 and those who are under 45. If over 45 and those who are under 45. If over 45 and those who are under 45. If you're under 45, your mental well-being, you're under 45, your mental well-being, you're under 45, your mental well-being, your physical well-being, your social your physical well-being, your social your physical well-being, your social well-being falls off a cliff. Like the well-being falls off a cliff. Like the well-being falls off a cliff. Like the stats are a fraction for older leaders stats are a fraction for older leaders stats are a fraction for older leaders than they are for older than they are for older than they are for older leaders. leaders. leaders. Why? Yeah. And and I I I want to be Why? Yeah. And and I I I want to be Why? Yeah. And and I I I want to be clear that any answer I give here is clear that any answer I give here is clear that any answer I give here is more conjecture or theory than it is, more conjecture or theory than it is, more conjecture or theory than it is, you know, borne out by specific data you know, borne out by specific data you know, borne out by specific data because it's hard to to get underneath because it's hard to to get underneath because it's hard to to get underneath this except through focus groups. you this except through focus groups. you this except through focus groups. you know, what a sociologist would say is, know, what a sociologist would say is, know, what a sociologist would say is, you know, qualitative research. But I you know, qualitative research. But I you know, qualitative research. But I think I think we do have some of that in think I think we do have some of that in think I think we do have some of that in our conversations. And I I think some of our conversations. And I I think some of our conversations. And I I think some of the factors are um younger leaders are the factors are um younger leaders are the factors are um younger leaders are typically um in the middle of a church typically um in the middle of a church typically um in the middle of a church plant. They're they're about typically plant. They're they're about typically plant. They're they're about typically they're about years three or four or they're about years three or four or they're about years three or four or five in the church plant. So, one of the five in the church plant. So, one of the five in the church plant. So, one of the reasons for this is it's the church reasons for this is it's the church reasons for this is it's the church planting era is very exciting. you know, planting era is very exciting. you know, planting era is very exciting. you know, the first couple, you know, maybe the first couple, you know, maybe the first couple, you know, maybe they're it's it's exciting because it's they're it's it's exciting because it's they're it's it's exciting because it's scary, you know, but once you make it scary, you know, but once you make it scary, you know, but once you make it past year three, you're like, "Okay, past year three, you're like, "Okay, past year three, you're like, "Okay, this thing's going to survive." But it's this thing's going to survive." But it's this thing's going to survive." But it's als it's also when the people who als it's also when the people who als it's also when the people who planted uh with you are leaving. Uh and planted uh with you are leaving. Uh and planted uh with you are leaving. Uh and there's this I mean, there's lots of there's this I mean, there's lots of there's this I mean, there's lots of people who talk about this, you know, or people who talk about this, you know, or people who talk about this, you know, or church planting agencies say, "Yeah, church planting agencies say, "Yeah, church planting agencies say, "Yeah, expect it." Cuz there are some people expect it." Cuz there are some people expect it." Cuz there are some people who are pioneers. They like to pioneer, who are pioneers. They like to pioneer, who are pioneers. They like to pioneer, but they're not infrastructure people.

but they're not infrastructure people. but they're not infrastructure people. They're not builders. And once those They're not builders. And once those They're not builders. And once those people start leaving, that's really people start leaving, that's really people start leaving, that's really painful. Um, and sometimes they leave painful. Um, and sometimes they leave painful. Um, and sometimes they leave because they're like, "Oh, I thought we because they're like, "Oh, I thought we because they're like, "Oh, I thought we were going to be this kind of church. It were going to be this kind of church. It were going to be this kind of church. It turns out we're just going to be an turns out we're just going to be an turns out we're just going to be an quote unquote ordinary kind of church." quote unquote ordinary kind of church." quote unquote ordinary kind of church." You know, and and that that's hard. I You know, and and that that's hard. I You know, and and that that's hard. I mean, and and if you're a pastor, if mean, and and if you're a pastor, if mean, and and if you're a pastor, if you're a leader that your motivating you're a leader that your motivating you're a leader that your motivating factor is to be unique or to be special, factor is to be unique or to be special, factor is to be unique or to be special, you're an Inagram 4. That's like a death you're an Inagram 4. That's like a death you're an Inagram 4. That's like a death blow, man, when someone goes, "Oh, I I blow, man, when someone goes, "Oh, I I blow, man, when someone goes, "Oh, I I see. We're just becoming a normal church see. We're just becoming a normal church see. We're just becoming a normal church now." You know, and I 75 people setting now." You know, and I 75 people setting now." You know, and I 75 people setting up and tearing down every sing. Yeah. up and tearing down every sing. Yeah. up and tearing down every sing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, I I think there's an Right. Yeah. So, I I think there's an Right. Yeah. So, I I think there's an expectation thing. I think there's the expectation thing. I think there's the expectation thing. I think there's the relational departure. Um but I think the relational departure. Um but I think the relational departure. Um but I think the other factor is younger pastors are very other factor is younger pastors are very other factor is younger pastors are very they live on in in the digital world. they live on in in the digital world. they live on in in the digital world. They're they're they're um spending They're they're they're um spending They're they're they're um spending hours a day um on on Instagram. And the hours a day um on on Instagram. And the hours a day um on on Instagram. And the the danger here is you're comparing the danger here is you're comparing the danger here is you're comparing yourself with everybody else. And so yourself with everybody else. And so yourself with everybody else. And so it's very you you were not unhappy with it's very you you were not unhappy with it's very you you were not unhappy with your church until you scrolled Instagram your church until you scrolled Instagram your church until you scrolled Instagram on a Sunday afternoon while you're on a Sunday afternoon while you're on a Sunday afternoon while you're sitting on the couch depleted and sitting on the couch depleted and sitting on the couch depleted and depressed and now you're even more depressed and now you're even more depressed and now you're even more depleted and depressed. So that has to depleted and depressed. So that has to depleted and depressed. So that has to be a factor somewhere, I think. Yeah.

be a factor somewhere, I think. Yeah. be a factor somewhere, I think. Yeah. You know, and I wonder if that's a You know, and I wonder if that's a You know, and I wonder if that's a difference between pre-digital memory difference between pre-digital memory difference between pre-digital memory and no pre-digital memory. Like I can and no pre-digital memory. Like I can and no pre-digital memory. Like I can scroll Instagram or Tik Tok and I see scroll Instagram or Tik Tok and I see scroll Instagram or Tik Tok and I see big crowds or you know podcasts with big crowds or you know podcasts with big crowds or you know podcasts with bigger numbers and there's a part of me bigger numbers and there's a part of me bigger numbers and there's a part of me that's like okay like it's fine but I that's like okay like it's fine but I that's like okay like it's fine but I lived for 30 years 35 years before I lived for 30 years 35 years before I lived for 30 years 35 years before I really had that daily competition in my really had that daily competition in my really had that daily competition in my life. Is that a factor? It's got to be. life. Is that a factor? It's got to be. life. Is that a factor? It's got to be. It's got to be. I mean, digital natives, It's got to be. I mean, digital natives, It's got to be. I mean, digital natives, this is your window to the world and and this is your window to the world and and this is your window to the world and and it's been there since you were eight, it's been there since you were eight, it's been there since you were eight, right? Like Mhm. right? Like Mhm. right? Like Mhm. Uh-huh. So, so let's talk about that for Uh-huh. So, so let's talk about that for Uh-huh. So, so let's talk about that for a moment because I have seen that and a moment because I have seen that and a moment because I have seen that and and that is a FAQ. I'm getting it less and that is a FAQ. I'm getting it less and that is a FAQ. I'm getting it less cuz I talk about it a lot on the cuz I talk about it a lot on the cuz I talk about it a lot on the podcast, so must be getting through and podcast, so must be getting through and podcast, so must be getting through and we have a pretty young audience on this we have a pretty young audience on this we have a pretty young audience on this show, too. Um, but how do you cut show, too. Um, but how do you cut show, too. Um, but how do you cut through the noise of Tik Tok and and through the noise of Tik Tok and and through the noise of Tik Tok and and Instagram and nextgen influencers?

Well, I don't know that you cut through Well, I don't know that you cut through the noise. I think there's a way to the noise. I think there's a way to the noise. I think there's a way to rightsize the noise to put it in its rightsize the noise to put it in its rightsize the noise to put it in its proper place. And and again, this is proper place. And and again, this is proper place. And and again, this is this is where you need your people this is where you need your people this is where you need your people around you. you need real flesh and around you. you need real flesh and around you. you need real flesh and blood community around you who remind blood community around you who remind blood community around you who remind you that you're you're okay and what you that you're you're okay and what you that you're you're okay and what you're so like me going to my el and him you're so like me going to my el and him you're so like me going to my el and him saying it never needs to be any better saying it never needs to be any better saying it never needs to be any better or bigger than this. It it right sizes or bigger than this. It it right sizes or bigger than this. It it right sizes uh the you know the voice other voices uh the you know the voice other voices uh the you know the voice other voices that are in my head or the voices that that are in my head or the voices that that are in my head or the voices that you that come from comparison. So there you that come from comparison. So there you that come from comparison. So there there is an internal dynamic with that there is an internal dynamic with that there is an internal dynamic with that where you rightsize it in your own life where you rightsize it in your own life where you rightsize it in your own life by having real relationships. But by having real relationships. But by having real relationships. But there's an external part of this too. there's an external part of this too. there's an external part of this too. And this is the thing we're not talking And this is the thing we're not talking And this is the thing we're not talking about is it's not just pastors who are about is it's not just pastors who are about is it's not just pastors who are scrolling Instagram and Tik Tok. It's scrolling Instagram and Tik Tok. It's scrolling Instagram and Tik Tok. It's the people in our church. And so and you the people in our church. And so and you the people in our church. And so and you know and so now even if you're not know and so now even if you're not know and so now even if you're not comparing yourself against whatever comparing yourself against whatever comparing yourself against whatever whatever popular preacher they are and whatever popular preacher they are and whatever popular preacher they are and they go hey I heard this guy say this they go hey I heard this guy say this they go hey I heard this guy say this but you didn't say it that way or I but you didn't say it that way or I but you didn't say it that way or I heard this person put you know and you heard this person put you know and you heard this person put you know and you know and that I I don't know how you uh know and that I I don't know how you uh know and that I I don't know how you uh that's one of the great struggles of the that's one of the great struggles of the that's one of the great struggles of the world we're living in again competing world we're living in again competing world we're living in again competing voices uh in in this cultural moment.

voices uh in in this cultural moment. voices uh in in this cultural moment. Hm. Um, what is the biggest factor Hm. Um, what is the biggest factor Hm. Um, what is the biggest factor impacting like right now impacting impacting like right now impacting impacting like right now impacting pastoral resilience? The ability whether pastoral resilience? The ability whether pastoral resilience? The ability whether you're a younger leader or an older you're a younger leader or an older you're a younger leader or an older leader, the ability to really make it leader, the ability to really make it leader, the ability to really make it cuz and and let's let's even divi define cuz and and let's let's even divi define cuz and and let's let's even divi define resilience. I mean, is it sort of the resilience. I mean, is it sort of the resilience. I mean, is it sort of the stereotypical you get knocked down, you stereotypical you get knocked down, you stereotypical you get knocked down, you get back up again? Jumbo womba like no. get back up again? Jumbo womba like no. get back up again? Jumbo womba like no. Sorry, had to do that. That's I got I Sorry, had to do that. That's I got I Sorry, had to do that. That's I got I got the reference. I got the I get got the reference. I got the I get got the reference. I got the I get knocked down. Yeah. A certain age. Yeah. knocked down. Yeah. A certain age. Yeah. knocked down. Yeah. A certain age. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, it is it is both ends. So, Yeah. Um, no, it is it is both ends. So, Yeah. Um, no, it is it is both ends. So, let's let's let's go back to those words let's let's let's go back to those words let's let's let's go back to those words recovery and recalibration. It is recovery and recalibration. It is recovery and recalibration. It is recovery. There is something about recovery. There is something about recovery. There is something about recovery. And I I I want to say the the recovery. And I I I want to say the the recovery. And I I I want to say the the the biggest obstacle to recovery, that the biggest obstacle to recovery, that the biggest obstacle to recovery, that form of resilience, is that we don't form of resilience, is that we don't form of resilience, is that we don't slow down uh to actually begin to do slow down uh to actually begin to do slow down uh to actually begin to do that work. So, when I talk to pastors that work. So, when I talk to pastors that work. So, when I talk to pastors about this, I say, "Let me give you a about this, I say, "Let me give you a about this, I say, "Let me give you a practical thing. Discern the condition practical thing. Discern the condition practical thing. Discern the condition of your soul." And they go, "Okay." And of your soul." And they go, "Okay." And of your soul." And they go, "Okay." And they go, "Here's two questions to ask they go, "Here's two questions to ask they go, "Here's two questions to ask yourself. Are you weary or are you yourself. Are you weary or are you yourself. Are you weary or are you wounded? Because those are not the same wounded? Because those are not the same wounded? Because those are not the same thing. Those are not the same thing. And thing. Those are not the same thing. And thing. Those are not the same thing. And and and if if you are weary, then okay, and and if if you are weary, then okay, and and if if you are weary, then okay, let's let's talk about your schedule.

let's let's talk about your schedule. let's let's talk about your schedule. Let's build in a summer break that we Let's build in a summer break that we Let's build in a summer break that we can figure that out. If you're wounded, can figure that out. If you're wounded, can figure that out. If you're wounded, you cannot sbatical your way into you cannot sbatical your way into you cannot sbatical your way into healing if you're wounded. You can't healing if you're wounded. You can't healing if you're wounded. You can't rest your way into wholeness if you're rest your way into wholeness if you're rest your way into wholeness if you're wounded. And that's that's it. Wow. So wounded. And that's that's it. Wow. So wounded. And that's that's it. Wow. So so so hadn't thought about that. Too so so hadn't thought about that. Too so so hadn't thought about that. Too many young leaders are are thinking rest many young leaders are are thinking rest many young leaders are are thinking rest is all they need when actually you need is all they need when actually you need is all they need when actually you need healing. You need somebody and it could healing. You need somebody and it could healing. You need somebody and it could be a trained therapist. It could be um be a trained therapist. It could be um be a trained therapist. It could be um an intensive sort of thing. But I you an intensive sort of thing. But I you an intensive sort of thing. But I you know I know I know I wonder when I lived in Colorado there wonder when I lived in Colorado there wonder when I lived in Colorado there were a lot of military folks that would were a lot of military folks that would were a lot of military folks that would go come back from deployment. And go come back from deployment. And go come back from deployment. And PTSD it doesn't show up typically when PTSD it doesn't show up typically when PTSD it doesn't show up typically when you're in Afghanistan or Iraq or you're in Afghanistan or Iraq or you're in Afghanistan or Iraq or whatever. You know, it typically shows whatever. You know, it typically shows whatever. You know, it typically shows up when you're in line at Walmart or up when you're in line at Walmart or up when you're in line at Walmart or when you're in traffic on the freeway when you're in traffic on the freeway when you're in traffic on the freeway because it's the more normal things get, because it's the more normal things get, because it's the more normal things get, the more those things start to kind of the more those things start to kind of the more those things start to kind of your body relaxes now. And the thing your body relaxes now. And the thing your body relaxes now. And the thing that it had had separated out because of that it had had separated out because of that it had had separated out because of adrenaline, it now has un unleashed and adrenaline, it now has un unleashed and adrenaline, it now has un unleashed and it it's now it's leaking out. And I it it's now it's leaking out. And I it it's now it's leaking out. And I think this is happening for a lot of think this is happening for a lot of think this is happening for a lot of pastors and church leaders. You took pastors and church leaders. You took pastors and church leaders. You took some shrapnel over those years of the some shrapnel over those years of the some shrapnel over those years of the pandemic and the racial tensions and pandemic and the racial tensions and pandemic and the racial tensions and political, you know, all you took some political, you know, all you took some political, you know, all you took some shrapnel. You made it through and now shrapnel. You made it through and now shrapnel. You made it through and now things quote unquote feel normal.

things quote unquote feel normal. things quote unquote feel normal. Attendance is is, you know, more or less Attendance is is, you know, more or less Attendance is is, you know, more or less back or whatever. But it's in these back or whatever. But it's in these back or whatever. But it's in these moments where things feel normal that moments where things feel normal that moments where things feel normal that now all of a sudden the wounds appear now all of a sudden the wounds appear now all of a sudden the wounds appear and you go, "Oh, wait. I didn't know I and you go, "Oh, wait. I didn't know I and you go, "Oh, wait. I didn't know I was bleeding. I didn't know I was hurt. was bleeding. I didn't know I was hurt. was bleeding. I didn't know I was hurt. I didn't know I didn't know that I had I didn't know I didn't know that I had I didn't know I didn't know that I had actually stopped trusting people. I actually stopped trusting people. I actually stopped trusting people. I didn't know that I, you know, I was didn't know that I, you know, I was didn't know that I, you know, I was afraid to talk about race. I was, you afraid to talk about race. I was, you afraid to talk about race. I was, you know, so are you weary or are you know, so are you weary or are you know, so are you weary or are you wounded?" That's the condition of your wounded?" That's the condition of your wounded?" That's the condition of your soul. I think, and I I don't want to soul. I think, and I I don't want to soul. I think, and I I don't want to gender stereotype here, but the number gender stereotype here, but the number gender stereotype here, but the number of times over the years I've walked in of times over the years I've walked in of times over the years I've walked in the house after a day of yard work and the house after a day of yard work and the house after a day of yard work and my wife looks at me and goes, "There's my wife looks at me and goes, "There's my wife looks at me and goes, "There's blood all over your leg. What happened?" blood all over your leg. What happened?" blood all over your leg. What happened?" And I'm like, "I have no idea." Like, I And I'm like, "I have no idea." Like, I And I'm like, "I have no idea." Like, I have feeling like, but you know, you're have feeling like, but you know, you're have feeling like, but you know, you're just like, "I didn't even know I cut just like, "I didn't even know I cut just like, "I didn't even know I cut myself. You're looking at your elbow, myself. You're looking at your elbow, myself. You're looking at your elbow, blood all over the place. I didn't even blood all over the place. I didn't even blood all over the place. I didn't even notice." And I think that's a metaphor notice." And I think that's a metaphor notice." And I think that's a metaphor for um church leadership, too. You're for um church leadership, too. You're for um church leadership, too. You're like, "I'm fine. I'm fine. Yes. Not. And like, "I'm fine. I'm fine. Yes. Not. And like, "I'm fine. I'm fine. Yes. Not. And then you're not exactly. Then the second then you're not exactly. Then the second then you're not exactly. Then the second discernment question on the recovery discernment question on the recovery discernment question on the recovery bucket is to discern the season that bucket is to discern the season that bucket is to discern the season that you're in. I I think you know again you're in. I I think you know again you're in. I I think you know again lesson from my father-in-law who farmed lesson from my father-in-law who farmed lesson from my father-in-law who farmed for 50 years in the Midwest. Good work for 50 years in the Midwest. Good work for 50 years in the Midwest. Good work done in the wrong season is bad work.

done in the wrong season is bad work. done in the wrong season is bad work. And and there there you can't cut down And and there there you can't cut down And and there there you can't cut down firewood in the winter. I mean think you firewood in the winter. I mean think you firewood in the winter. I mean think you can't do that. So it's firewood that's can't do that. So it's firewood that's can't do that. So it's firewood that's good work. Yeah. But it's the wrong good work. Yeah. But it's the wrong good work. Yeah. But it's the wrong season. And I I I think this is again season. And I I I think this is again season. And I I I think this is again the challenge with the social media the challenge with the social media the challenge with the social media thing. You may not be in the same season thing. You may not be in the same season thing. You may not be in the same season as the person that you're watching their as the person that you're watching their as the person that you're watching their video, you know, so they're get they're video, you know, so they're get they're video, you know, so they're get they're doing this and oh, they're launching. doing this and oh, they're launching. doing this and oh, they're launching. Maybe we should launch that. Maybe we Maybe we should launch that. Maybe we Maybe we should launch that. Maybe we should try go man. Maybe your church is should try go man. Maybe your church is should try go man. Maybe your church is not in that season, you know. And so so not in that season, you know. And so so not in that season, you know. And so so you have to not just discern the you have to not just discern the you have to not just discern the condition of your soul. You got to condition of your soul. You got to condition of your soul. You got to discern the context of the season that discern the context of the season that discern the context of the season that your your church is in and to say, if your your church is in and to say, if your your church is in and to say, if we're in a winter season, what does that we're in a winter season, what does that we're in a winter season, what does that mean for us? If we're in a spring mean for us? If we're in a spring mean for us? If we're in a spring season, what does that mean for us? and season, what does that mean for us? and season, what does that mean for us? and and make your work match the season that and make your work match the season that and make your work match the season that you're in or you're going to end up you're in or you're going to end up you're in or you're going to end up being really frustrated. I think older being really frustrated. I think older being really frustrated. I think older leaders know this. I think younger leaders know this. I think younger leaders know this. I think younger leaders have not learned it yet. leaders have not learned it yet. leaders have not learned it yet. Yeah. And I mean, you know, if you've Yeah. And I mean, you know, if you've Yeah. And I mean, you know, if you've been in ministry for 20 years, there's a been in ministry for 20 years, there's a been in ministry for 20 years, there's a stereotype of going to a conference and stereotype of going to a conference and stereotype of going to a conference and getting all excited about something and getting all excited about something and getting all excited about something and then coming back and all right, this is then coming back and all right, this is then coming back and all right, this is what we're doing. And then you go to what we're doing. And then you go to what we're doing. And then you go to another conference and no, this is what another conference and no, this is what another conference and no, this is what we're doing. But you're right, social we're doing. But you're right, social we're doing. But you're right, social media is just that you get that 28 times media is just that you get that 28 times media is just that you get that 28 times a day. And so you probably haven't a day. And so you probably haven't a day. And so you probably haven't developed the the discernment to get developed the the discernment to get developed the the discernment to get that yet. So I want to go 20 years into that yet. So I want to go 20 years into that yet. So I want to go 20 years into the future. We're in the mid 2040s, the future. We're in the mid 2040s, the future. We're in the mid 2040s, which sounds really weird. When we look which sounds really weird. When we look which sounds really weird. When we look back at this period in church back at this period in church back at this period in church history, what will we wish we had done differently? I think um and this is differently? I think um and this is something I'm really passionate about. I

something I'm really passionate about. I something I'm really passionate about. I think we're going to wish we had rallied think we're going to wish we had rallied think we're going to wish we had rallied around the right things. I think we're around the right things. I think we're around the right things. I think we're going to wish that we had recovered some going to wish that we had recovered some going to wish that we had recovered some sense of the core of Christian belief. sense of the core of Christian belief. sense of the core of Christian belief. Um, and this is, you know, this is what Um, and this is, you know, this is what Um, and this is, you know, this is what has been a project of mine for a number has been a project of mine for a number has been a project of mine for a number of years now is a of years now is a of years now is a retrieval by learning from other eras of retrieval by learning from other eras of retrieval by learning from other eras of church history. So when I think about church history. So when I think about church history. So when I think about eras of church history where there were eras of church history where there were eras of church history where there were uh rapid growth but also sort of this uh rapid growth but also sort of this uh rapid growth but also sort of this tribalized kind of thing, the the church tribalized kind of thing, the the church tribalized kind of thing, the the church began to say, "Hang on, we need some began to say, "Hang on, we need some began to say, "Hang on, we need some unifying calls here. We need some ways unifying calls here. We need some ways unifying calls here. We need some ways of kind of reminding ourselves of what of kind of reminding ourselves of what of kind of reminding ourselves of what lies at the heart. What are what are the lies at the heart. What are what are the lies at the heart. What are what are the defining pieces? And I think our I I defining pieces? And I think our I I defining pieces? And I think our I I think as denominational loyalties fade think as denominational loyalties fade think as denominational loyalties fade and some of that we can embrace the good and some of that we can embrace the good and some of that we can embrace the good of that there needs to be something else of that there needs to be something else of that there needs to be something else now. So now what unites us? Now what now. So now what unites us? Now what now. So now what unites us? Now what pulls us together? People aren't getting pulls us together? People aren't getting pulls us together? People aren't getting together at like they used to because together at like they used to because together at like they used to because you know this is we're all Presbyterians you know this is we're all Presbyterians you know this is we're all Presbyterians or we're all it's just those loyalties or we're all it's just those loyalties or we're all it's just those loyalties are not there for better or for worse. are not there for better or for worse. are not there for better or for worse. And so rather than let it become um um And so rather than let it become um um And so rather than let it become um um you know feudal little encampments in you know feudal little encampments in you know feudal little encampments in our that's just going to fuel our our that's just going to fuel our our that's just going to fuel our isolation. It might even fuel the lack isolation. It might even fuel the lack isolation. It might even fuel the lack of accountability. We need some we need of accountability. We need some we need of accountability. We need some we need networks of facilitated pure learning networks of facilitated pure learning networks of facilitated pure learning and we need um creeds and confessions and we need um creeds and confessions and we need um creeds and confessions that return us to the core.

that return us to the core. that return us to the core. You argue that Christianity has been You argue that Christianity has been You argue that Christianity has been co-opted or co-opted or co-opted or corrupted in the last era few years. corrupted in the last era few years. corrupted in the last era few years. What what do you mean? Yeah. I mean, I What what do you mean? Yeah. I mean, I What what do you mean? Yeah. I mean, I think this is precisely the thing we're think this is precisely the thing we're think this is precisely the thing we're trying to name, you know, with the with trying to name, you know, with the with trying to name, you know, with the with the the different voices out there and the the different voices out there and the the different voices out there and maybe, you know, part part of this is in maybe, you know, part part of this is in maybe, you know, part part of this is in the the scandals and you see that the the the scandals and you see that the the the scandals and you see that the church has been um plagued by scandal church has been um plagued by scandal church has been um plagued by scandal after scandal after scandal. Um I think after scandal after scandal. Um I think after scandal after scandal. Um I think part of this is, you know, a number of part of this is, you know, a number of part of this is, you know, a number of uh one of the reasons why so many young uh one of the reasons why so many young uh one of the reasons why so many young people have become disillusioned with people have become disillusioned with people have become disillusioned with the church. I saw someone put it this the church. I saw someone put it this the church. I saw someone put it this way. They said, "It's not that I stopped way. They said, "It's not that I stopped way. They said, "It's not that I stopped believing these things. It's that I believing these things. It's that I believing these things. It's that I realized the people I respected don't realized the people I respected don't realized the people I respected don't actually believe these things, you know, actually believe these things, you know, actually believe these things, you know, and that that's why people are are are and that that's why people are are are and that that's why people are are are wanting to walk away from church or wanting to walk away from church or wanting to walk away from church or walking away from from faith. So walking away from from faith. So walking away from from faith. So corrupted by our own failures, co-opted corrupted by our own failures, co-opted corrupted by our own failures, co-opted by our own agendas. And we could think by our own agendas. And we could think by our own agendas. And we could think about um in America, we could think about um in America, we could think about um in America, we could think about the various ways and various about the various ways and various about the various ways and various degrees of nationalism or political degrees of nationalism or political degrees of nationalism or political tribalism that that has gone. And I'm tribalism that that has gone. And I'm tribalism that that has gone. And I'm not talking about people having not talking about people having not talking about people having political opinions. You can have political opinions. You can have political opinions. You can have political opinions. You can have a love political opinions. You can have a love political opinions. You can have a love of country, but there's a line that we of country, but there's a line that we of country, but there's a line that we cross where we go, God is on our side, cross where we go, God is on our side, cross where we go, God is on our side, or every Christian ought to think this or every Christian ought to think this or every Christian ought to think this way, you know, and you start to way, you know, and you start to way, you know, and you start to theologize your politics or you start to theologize your politics or you start to theologize your politics or you start to theologize your preferences. That that theologize your preferences. That that theologize your preferences. That that is uh really undermining the faith is uh really undermining the faith is uh really undermining the faith because now we're adding um extra because now we're adding um extra because now we're adding um extra elements to the core of what elements to the core of what elements to the core of what Christianity is about. And I I think you Christianity is about. And I I think you Christianity is about. And I I think you know it leaves people in the church and

know it leaves people in the church and know it leaves people in the church and outside the church just wondering man outside the church just wondering man outside the church just wondering man what if what's a Christian anyway? You what if what's a Christian anyway? You what if what's a Christian anyway? You know you just keep adding stuff. Well know you just keep adding stuff. Well know you just keep adding stuff. Well there is a real fusing and I've seen it there is a real fusing and I've seen it there is a real fusing and I've seen it intensify since the election last year intensify since the election last year intensify since the election last year of ideology and theology of partisan of ideology and theology of partisan of ideology and theology of partisan views and politics and faith. And views and politics and faith. And views and politics and faith. And pastors have become some have become pastors have become some have become pastors have become some have become very vocal about it. And I don't think very vocal about it. And I don't think very vocal about it. And I don't think that they see the distinction anymore. that they see the distinction anymore. that they see the distinction anymore. They're like, "This is what it's been They're like, "This is what it's been They're like, "This is what it's been about all along." What are what are your about all along." What are what are your about all along." What are what are your comments on that phenomena? First of comments on that phenomena? First of comments on that phenomena? First of all, are you seeing it? And if so, what all, are you seeing it? And if so, what all, are you seeing it? And if so, what what is what's at stake there? I I'm what is what's at stake there? I I'm what is what's at stake there? I I'm definitely seeing it. And there's part definitely seeing it. And there's part definitely seeing it. And there's part of me that's on my best days trying to of me that's on my best days trying to of me that's on my best days trying to be charitable and sympathetic to what be charitable and sympathetic to what be charitable and sympathetic to what they're what they're trying to do, you they're what they're trying to do, you they're what they're trying to do, you know. Yeah. Um I I if you press me I know. Yeah. Um I I if you press me I know. Yeah. Um I I if you press me I would say yeah I actually think a would say yeah I actually think a would say yeah I actually think a Judeo-Christian worldview happens to be Judeo-Christian worldview happens to be Judeo-Christian worldview happens to be a really wonderful um soil for for the a really wonderful um soil for for the a really wonderful um soil for for the things that we love about Western things that we love about Western things that we love about Western civilization. I I I do think that's true civilization. I I I do think that's true civilization. I I I do think that's true historically. So I understand it. I I historically. So I understand it. I I historically. So I understand it. I I think the difficulty here is okay. So think the difficulty here is okay. So think the difficulty here is okay. So what does that mean then for the what does that mean then for the what does that mean then for the church's mission in the world? And church's mission in the world? And church's mission in the world? And that's maybe the step uh that some are that's maybe the step uh that some are that's maybe the step uh that some are taking where they go, well therefore it taking where they go, well therefore it taking where they go, well therefore it means we ought to be active in this way means we ought to be active in this way means we ought to be active in this way and we ought to vote this way and we and we ought to vote this way and we and we ought to vote this way and we ought to you know and and you go well ought to you know and and you go well ought to you know and and you go well what if I share your biblical what if I share your biblical what if I share your biblical convictions but I don't share your convictions but I don't share your convictions but I don't share your political actions you know or or the political actions you know or or the political actions you know or or the outworking of those convictions and and outworking of those convictions and and outworking of those convictions and and that's where I think it becomes that's where I think it becomes that's where I think it becomes problematic because now again when you

problematic because now again when you problematic because now again when you don't have something to hold on to don't have something to hold on to don't have something to hold on to you've replaced then this is why I was you've replaced then this is why I was you've replaced then this is why I was saying we need a core creed or saying we need a core creed or saying we need a core creed or confession to hold fast because when you confession to hold fast because when you confession to hold fast because when you don't have that, absent of that, we're don't have that, absent of that, we're don't have that, absent of that, we're going to latch on to something else. And going to latch on to something else. And going to latch on to something else. And what we've latched on to is a partisan what we've latched on to is a partisan what we've latched on to is a partisan political ideology. Yeah. And I think political ideology. Yeah. And I think political ideology. Yeah. And I think people who would be, you know, in that people who would be, you know, in that people who would be, you know, in that mold, who have fused their uh partisan mold, who have fused their uh partisan mold, who have fused their uh partisan theology, if you can put it that way, theology, if you can put it that way, theology, if you can put it that way, would say, well, what alternative is would say, well, what alternative is would say, well, what alternative is there? Like they have drunk the there? Like they have drunk the there? Like they have drunk the Kool-Aid. And so, Glenn, what is the Kool-Aid. And so, Glenn, what is the Kool-Aid. And so, Glenn, what is the alternative? You going to be a alternative? You going to be a alternative? You going to be a wishy-washy liberal? What what are you wishy-washy liberal? What what are you wishy-washy liberal? What what are you going to be? I think the alternative is going to be? I think the alternative is going to be? I think the alternative is to do what Christians in every age have to do what Christians in every age have to do what Christians in every age have done. It's to give our allegiance to done. It's to give our allegiance to done. It's to give our allegiance to King Jesus to live to let the church be King Jesus to live to let the church be King Jesus to live to let the church be an alternative community, a a small an alternative community, a a small an alternative community, a a small working model as Entr Wright puts it, a working model as Entr Wright puts it, a working model as Entr Wright puts it, a small working model of the kingdom of small working model of the kingdom of small working model of the kingdom of God. And then to let that bleed outwards God. And then to let that bleed outwards God. And then to let that bleed outwards to where we do try to call the powers of to where we do try to call the powers of to where we do try to call the powers of this world into account in some small this world into account in some small this world into account in some small ways um the ways that we've been given ways um the ways that we've been given ways um the ways that we've been given in a western liberal democracy where in a western liberal democracy where in a western liberal democracy where we're allowed to kind of influence. I I we're allowed to kind of influence. I I we're allowed to kind of influence. I I think some of that's okay. But I think think some of that's okay. But I think think some of that's okay. But I think when we confuse that as central to our when we confuse that as central to our when we confuse that as central to our mission, what is really more peripheral mission, what is really more peripheral mission, what is really more peripheral to our mission, I think that's where the to our mission, I think that's where the to our mission, I think that's where the confusion comes in because then then confusion comes in because then then confusion comes in because then then people go, well, so then to be a people go, well, so then to be a people go, well, so then to be a follower of Jesus, do I need to do all follower of Jesus, do I need to do all follower of Jesus, do I need to do all those things or do I need to do these those things or do I need to do these those things or do I need to do these things? You know, what's actually what things? You know, what's actually what things? You know, what's actually what am I saying yes to? And and now we've am I saying yes to? And and now we've am I saying yes to? And and now we've undercut the core of our mission. So undercut the core of our mission. So undercut the core of our mission. So what does that look like at Rock Harbor?

what does that look like at Rock Harbor? what does that look like at Rock Harbor? How are you trying to not get swept up How are you trying to not get swept up How are you trying to not get swept up in the culture wars? What are you in the culture wars? What are you in the culture wars? What are you focusing on? focusing on? focusing on? We're focusing on the kingdom of God. We're focusing on the kingdom of God. We're focusing on the kingdom of God. We're focusing on um what it looks like We're focusing on um what it looks like We're focusing on um what it looks like to faithfully love one another, to be a to faithfully love one another, to be a to faithfully love one another, to be a different kind of church. We we did this different kind of church. We we did this different kind of church. We we did this thing the Sunday before the election. I thing the Sunday before the election. I thing the Sunday before the election. I wrote out a prayer and the prayer was, wrote out a prayer and the prayer was, wrote out a prayer and the prayer was, you know, for, you know, for um our you know, for, you know, for um our you know, for, you know, for um our nation and the prayer was for um leaders nation and the prayer was for um leaders nation and the prayer was for um leaders to do the right thing and all of that. to do the right thing and all of that. to do the right thing and all of that. The prayer was for wisdom, for and The prayer was for wisdom, for and The prayer was for wisdom, for and courage for all of us to to use our courage for all of us to to use our courage for all of us to to use our voice in a way that protects people and voice in a way that protects people and voice in a way that protects people and loves our neighbor and all of that. But loves our neighbor and all of that. But loves our neighbor and all of that. But the prayer also included. But at the end the prayer also included. But at the end the prayer also included. But at the end of the day, Lord, you know, help us to of the day, Lord, you know, help us to of the day, Lord, you know, help us to be the church that is the instrument in be the church that is the instrument in be the church that is the instrument in the world. And I think I think we have the world. And I think I think we have the world. And I think I think we have to remember that it is a lesser gospel to remember that it is a lesser gospel to remember that it is a lesser gospel to believe that the machinery of the to believe that the machinery of the to believe that the machinery of the state can accomplish the mission of God. state can accomplish the mission of God. state can accomplish the mission of God. That's a lesser gospel. The true gospel That's a lesser gospel. The true gospel That's a lesser gospel. The true gospel is that the instrument of the church, is that the instrument of the church, is that the instrument of the church, the the feeble earthn vessel of the the the feeble earthn vessel of the the the feeble earthn vessel of the church is meant to be the vehicle of the church is meant to be the vehicle of the church is meant to be the vehicle of the kingdom arriving on earth as it is in kingdom arriving on earth as it is in kingdom arriving on earth as it is in heaven. and anything else. It's good if heaven. and anything else. It's good if heaven. and anything else. It's good if you have it, good if it's it's fine if you have it, good if it's it's fine if you have it, good if it's it's fine if you don't, but to get confused about it, you don't, but to get confused about it, you don't, but to get confused about it, that's a lesser gospel. Glenn, is there that's a lesser gospel. Glenn, is there that's a lesser gospel. Glenn, is there anything we haven't talked about today anything we haven't talked about today anything we haven't talked about today that you would love to talk about? You that you would love to talk about? You that you would love to talk about? You know, we've been alluding to this kind know, we've been alluding to this kind know, we've been alluding to this kind of swirl and this blizzard and something of swirl and this blizzard and something of swirl and this blizzard and something to hang on to. One of my favorite to hang on to. One of my favorite to hang on to. One of my favorite metaphors has become so powerful um to metaphors has become so powerful um to metaphors has become so powerful um to us, our community here at Rock Harbor, us, our community here at Rock Harbor, us, our community here at Rock Harbor, is this image of a blizzard in in the is this image of a blizzard in in the is this image of a blizzard in in the old Midwestern days when in the when the old Midwestern days when in the when the old Midwestern days when in the when the the you know farm prairie days, the

the you know farm prairie days, the the you know farm prairie days, the storm would get so bad that in order to storm would get so bad that in order to storm would get so bad that in order to find your way home, you had to go out to find your way home, you had to go out to find your way home, you had to go out to the barn to do some chores, close things the barn to do some chores, close things the barn to do some chores, close things up, whatever, they would put a rope up up, whatever, they would put a rope up up, whatever, they would put a rope up between the house and the barn. And it's between the house and the barn. And it's between the house and the barn. And it's just like it shouldn't you shouldn't you just like it shouldn't you shouldn't you just like it shouldn't you shouldn't you need it because you know this distance need it because you know this distance need it because you know this distance but yet that's how blinding the blizzard but yet that's how blinding the blizzard but yet that's how blinding the blizzard was that you needed a rope just to help was that you needed a rope just to help was that you needed a rope just to help you find your way home. I I think uh the you find your way home. I I think uh the you find your way home. I I think uh the early Christians early followers of early Christians early followers of early Christians early followers of Jesus put up a rope for us and that rope Jesus put up a rope for us and that rope Jesus put up a rope for us and that rope is the nyine creed and the nyine creed is the nyine creed and the nyine creed is the nyine creed and the nyine creed it's not just an outline of theology. No it's not just an outline of theology. No it's not just an outline of theology. No no no the creed has always been a no no the creed has always been a no no the creed has always been a unifier. It reminds us of what's at the unifier. It reminds us of what's at the unifier. It reminds us of what's at the heart of our faith. our belief in the heart of our faith. our belief in the heart of our faith. our belief in the father, the son, and the holy spirit, father, the son, and the holy spirit, father, the son, and the holy spirit, the creator, the redeemer, and the giver the creator, the redeemer, and the giver the creator, the redeemer, and the giver of life. But the creed is not just a of life. But the creed is not just a of life. But the creed is not just a unifier, it's a purifier. And this is unifier, it's a purifier. And this is unifier, it's a purifier. And this is why I believe it's so powerful for us as why I believe it's so powerful for us as why I believe it's so powerful for us as pastors today. It reminds us that this pastors today. It reminds us that this pastors today. It reminds us that this is the core. And if we could not just is the core. And if we could not just is the core. And if we could not just believe these words, but live like these believe these words, but live like these believe these words, but live like these words are true. This is part of our hope words are true. This is part of our hope words are true. This is part of our hope for the church finding its way. And and for the church finding its way. And and for the church finding its way. And and so whether it's the swirl of Tik Tockers so whether it's the swirl of Tik Tockers so whether it's the swirl of Tik Tockers or Instagram influencers or whether it's or Instagram influencers or whether it's or Instagram influencers or whether it's the church being corrupted or co-opted, the church being corrupted or co-opted, the church being corrupted or co-opted, we did the series at Rock Harbor 2 years we did the series at Rock Harbor 2 years we did the series at Rock Harbor 2 years ago and it was incredibly ago and it was incredibly ago and it was incredibly uh life-giving to people because they uh life-giving to people because they uh life-giving to people because they began to realize ah so amidst all these began to realize ah so amidst all these began to realize ah so amidst all these voices of vague spiritualities or voices of vague spiritualities or voices of vague spiritualities or whatever or even loud Christians taking whatever or even loud Christians taking whatever or even loud Christians taking shots at one another, friendly fire, all shots at one another, friendly fire, all shots at one another, friendly fire, all the stuff that we've talked about today, the stuff that we've talked about today, the stuff that we've talked about today, they realized okay so so this is it.

they realized okay so so this is it. they realized okay so so this is it. This is the irreducible minimum. But This is the irreducible minimum. But This is the irreducible minimum. But it's not just an irreducible minimum. it's not just an irreducible minimum. it's not just an irreducible minimum. It's the gateway into the the the most It's the gateway into the the the most It's the gateway into the the the most beautiful mystery of all, the life of beautiful mystery of all, the life of beautiful mystery of all, the life of who God is and what it looks like to be who God is and what it looks like to be who God is and what it looks like to be his people. So, I I wrote What's a his people. So, I I wrote What's a his people. So, I I wrote What's a Christian Anyway, about that, about what Christian Anyway, about that, about what Christian Anyway, about that, about what it means to to not just believe these it means to to not just believe these it means to to not just believe these words, but live like these words are words, but live like these words are words, but live like these words are true. And I I feel like it's a great true. And I I feel like it's a great true. And I I feel like it's a great followup for the challenges of followup for the challenges of followup for the challenges of credibility and and and confusion and credibility and and and confusion and credibility and and and confusion and all the stuff that we're we've been all the stuff that we're we've been all the stuff that we're we've been talking about. Well, Glenn, this has talking about. Well, Glenn, this has talking about. Well, Glenn, this has been a really rich conversation. and I been a really rich conversation. and I been a really rich conversation. and I had a couple of like huge insights had a couple of like huge insights had a couple of like huge insights myself. So, I'm going to be listening myself. So, I'm going to be listening myself. So, I'm going to be listening back, taking notes. Uh, your latest book back, taking notes. Uh, your latest book back, taking notes. Uh, your latest book is called What's a Christian Anyway? is called What's a Christian Anyway? is called What's a Christian Anyway? Also, highly still recommend The Also, highly still recommend The Also, highly still recommend The Resilient Pastor. We've been talking a Resilient Pastor. We've been talking a Resilient Pastor. We've been talking a lot about resilience. It is still lot about resilience. It is still lot about resilience. It is still needed. Uh, tell us about where people needed. Uh, tell us about where people needed. Uh, tell us about where people can find your books. Obviously, Amazon, can find your books. Obviously, Amazon, can find your books. Obviously, Amazon, everywhere, but a little bit about where everywhere, but a little bit about where everywhere, but a little bit about where they can find you, too. Well, I I would they can find you, too. Well, I I would they can find you, too. Well, I I would love if if people went to what's love if if people went to what's love if if people went to what's anyway.com, what you'll find there is a anyway.com, what you'll find there is a anyway.com, what you'll find there is a little bit of information about the little bit of information about the little bit of information about the book, links to buy it, but honestly, for book, links to buy it, but honestly, for book, links to buy it, but honestly, for pastors and church leaders, I I think pastors and church leaders, I I think pastors and church leaders, I I think one of the best things we could do is to one of the best things we could do is to one of the best things we could do is to give our people something better to hold give our people something better to hold give our people something better to hold on to than the lesser gospels and lesser on to than the lesser gospels and lesser on to than the lesser gospels and lesser promises. So, for anyone who orders five promises. So, for anyone who orders five promises. So, for anyone who orders five or more of these books, I'm giving away, or more of these books, I'm giving away, or more of these books, I'm giving away, it's like 20 pages worth of my sermon it's like 20 pages worth of my sermon it's like 20 pages worth of my sermon outlines for this series. So, you could outlines for this series. So, you could outlines for this series. So, you could do a ser you could do an entire sermon do a ser you could do an entire sermon do a ser you could do an entire sermon series on this. I'm giving away my my series on this. I'm giving away my my series on this. I'm giving away my my outlines. I've just taken out some of outlines. I've just taken out some of outlines. I've just taken out some of the personal stories, but all the the personal stories, but all the the personal stories, but all the illustrations and the scriptures are illustrations and the scriptures are illustrations and the scriptures are there. Um ser sermon outlines. We're there. Um ser sermon outlines. We're there. Um ser sermon outlines. We're giving away discussion questions for giving away discussion questions for giving away discussion questions for small groups. You know, we're trying to

small groups. You know, we're trying to small groups. You know, we're trying to do all that. So, what's achristian do all that. So, what's achristian do all that. So, what's achristian anyway.com would be the best place to anyway.com would be the best place to anyway.com would be the best place to find all that. I I'm laughing because uh find all that. I I'm laughing because uh find all that. I I'm laughing because uh I've heard cases and and been the victim I've heard cases and and been the victim I've heard cases and and been the victim of cases where people do tell the of cases where people do tell the of cases where people do tell the personal stories of other people as personal stories of other people as personal stories of other people as though they were there. So, it's a good though they were there. So, it's a good though they were there. So, it's a good thing you deleted those, Glenn. All thing you deleted those, Glenn. All thing you deleted those, Glenn. All right. Good. Great. So that's what's right. Good. Great. So that's what's right. Good. Great. So that's what's anyway.com. Yeah. Got it. All right, anyway.com. Yeah. Got it. All right, anyway.com. Yeah. Got it. All right, Glenn, till next time. Thank you so Glenn, till next time. Thank you so Glenn, till next time. Thank you so much. Thanks so much, Carrie.