Our Political Sickness and What to Preach Before the Election with Michael Wear

the public is so desperately looking for the public is so desperately looking for a way out of this partisan problem an a way out of this partisan problem an a way out of this partisan problem an alternative an alternative and if if the alternative an alternative and if if the alternative an alternative and if if the if the best the church can offer is gosh if the best the church can offer is gosh if the best the church can offer is gosh I hope we're still here after politics I hope we're still here after politics I hope we're still here after politics has its way with has its way with has its way with us instead of saying like what can we do us instead of saying like what can we do us instead of saying like what can we do with Jesus in the midst of this moment with Jesus in the midst of this moment with Jesus in the midst of this moment welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you joined us today hey if you're new here joined us today hey if you're new here joined us today hey if you're new here make sure you subscribe well today we make sure you subscribe well today we make sure you subscribe well today we are in the middle of our series on are in the middle of our series on are in the middle of our series on pastoring in a partisan age and my guest pastoring in a partisan age and my guest pastoring in a partisan age and my guest is Michael wear we're going to talk is Michael wear we're going to talk is Michael wear we're going to talk about our political sickness and if about our political sickness and if about our political sickness and if you're going to preach what can you do you're going to preach what can you do you're going to preach what can you do and all the other issues that seem to be and all the other issues that seem to be and all the other issues that seem to be driving where we are in this cultural driving where we are in this cultural driving where we are in this cultural moment and hey just so you know I moment and hey just so you know I moment and hey just so you know I created a free guide you can use as we created a free guide you can use as we created a free guide you can use as we explore how to Pastor in a partisan age explore how to Pastor in a partisan age explore how to Pastor in a partisan age in the guide I turn the key insights and in the guide I turn the key insights and in the guide I turn the key insights and Concepts here in this podcast series Concepts here in this podcast series Concepts here in this podcast series into very practical actionable steps into very practical actionable steps into very practical actionable steps make it way easier for you and way less make it way easier for you and way less make it way easier for you and way less awkward to deal with conflict and awkward to deal with conflict and awkward to deal with conflict and divisiveness at your church so if you divisiveness at your church so if you divisiveness at your church so if you want to start leading a more United want to start leading a more United want to start leading a more United Church and United Team download the Church and United Team download the Church and United Team download the guide at church conflict guide.com or by guide at church conflict guide.com or by guide at church conflict guide.com or by clicking the link in the description of clicking the link in the description of clicking the link in the description of this episode hey today's episode is this episode hey today's episode is this episode hey today's episode is brought to you by 10 by10 do you know brought to you by 10 by10 do you know brought to you by 10 by10 do you know our friends at 10x10 are harnessing the our friends at 10x10 are harnessing the our friends at 10x10 are harnessing the collective knowledge of more than 125 collective knowledge of more than 125 collective knowledge of more than 125 Christian Ministries organiz Christian Ministries organiz Christian Ministries organiz organizations and denominations that are organizations and denominations that are organizations and denominations that are dedicated to effectively discipling the

dedicated to effectively discipling the dedicated to effectively discipling the Next Generation just visit Next Generation just visit Next Generation just visit [Music] [Music] [Music] 1010.am hiring a bookkeeper for your 1010.am hiring a bookkeeper for your 1010.am hiring a bookkeeper for your church ble is offering our listeners a church ble is offering our listeners a church ble is offering our listeners a free download of their resource five free download of their resource five free download of their resource five ways a church bookkeeper can transform ways a church bookkeeper can transform ways a church bookkeeper can transform your day text my name carrye to 55123 to your day text my name carrye to 55123 to your day text my name carrye to 55123 to claim this offer today hey just a final claim this offer today hey just a final claim this offer today hey just a final note the purpose of this podcast is note the purpose of this podcast is note the purpose of this podcast is educational and informational we've got educational and informational we've got educational and informational we've got a variety of perspectives represented a variety of perspectives represented a variety of perspectives represented throughout the series so play nice in throughout the series so play nice in throughout the series so play nice in the comments keep it civil we know this the comments keep it civil we know this the comments keep it civil we know this is a divided world we want to bring is a divided world we want to bring is a divided world we want to bring Unity the goal of the series is to help Unity the goal of the series is to help Unity the goal of the series is to help and to diffuse the conflict the culture and to diffuse the conflict the culture and to diffuse the conflict the culture is experiencing and now to today's is experiencing and now to today's is experiencing and now to today's conversation with Michael wear Michael conversation with Michael wear Michael conversation with Michael wear Michael welcome to the podcast it's good to have welcome to the podcast it's good to have welcome to the podcast it's good to have you it's so good to be with you thanks you it's so good to be with you thanks you it's so good to be with you thanks for having me so I'd love to begin here for having me so I'd love to begin here for having me so I'd love to begin here because you talk about it right about it because you talk about it right about it because you talk about it right about it what is our political sickness like if what is our political sickness like if what is our political sickness like if you had to sort of talk about the malady you had to sort of talk about the malady you had to sort of talk about the malady of the age how would you define of the age how would you define of the age how would you define it I mean I think there are a lot of it I mean I think there are a lot of it I mean I think there are a lot of ways to talk about our political ways to talk about our political ways to talk about our political sickness but the way uh uh one framework sickness but the way uh uh one framework sickness but the way uh uh one framework that I think is helpful that I use in uh that I think is helpful that I use in uh that I think is helpful that I use in uh my book is that of political my book is that of political my book is that of political sectarianism and this was a framework to sectarianism and this was a framework to sectarianism and this was a framework to talk about political uh polarization talk about political uh polarization talk about political uh polarization that a number of social scientists put that a number of social scientists put that a number of social scientists put out in 2012 20 and they they say out in 2012 20 and they they say out in 2012 20 and they they say political sectarianism is upheld by political sectarianism is upheld by political sectarianism is upheld by three pillars uh first uh the tendency

three pillars uh first uh the tendency three pillars uh first uh the tendency of aversion which is the tendency to of aversion which is the tendency to of aversion which is the tendency to dislike and distrust uh those who differ dislike and distrust uh those who differ dislike and distrust uh those who differ from you politically the tendency of from you politically the tendency of from you politically the tendency of othering which is a tendency to sort of othering which is a tendency to sort of othering which is a tendency to sort of place outside of the bounds of sort of place outside of the bounds of sort of place outside of the bounds of sort of normal human Community those that you normal human Community those that you normal human Community those that you disagree with politically and then the disagree with politically and then the disagree with politically and then the tendency of of moralization or what I tendency of of moralization or what I tendency of of moralization or what I call a misplaced moralization which is call a misplaced moralization which is call a misplaced moralization which is the tendency of um uh raising political the tendency of um uh raising political the tendency of um uh raising political disagreement to the level uh of a pure disagreement to the level uh of a pure disagreement to the level uh of a pure good and evil or as a social scientist good and evil or as a social scientist good and evil or as a social scientist said interestingly they they said uh said interestingly they they said uh said interestingly they they said uh raising political difference to the raising political difference to the raising political difference to the level of iniquity which I thought was level of iniquity which I thought was level of iniquity which I thought was really interesting and so they they they really interesting and so they they they really interesting and so they they they say this toxic cocktail of aversion say this toxic cocktail of aversion say this toxic cocktail of aversion othering and moralization has led not othering and moralization has led not othering and moralization has led not just to um uh profound consequences for just to um uh profound consequences for just to um uh profound consequences for government and and the dis dysfunction government and and the dis dysfunction government and and the dis dysfunction of our politics but it's actually poured of our politics but it's actually poured of our politics but it's actually poured over into our social relations uh in over into our social relations uh in over into our social relations uh in really profound in really profound and really profound in really profound and really profound in really profound and harmful ways they say that out party harmful ways they say that out party harmful ways they say that out party hate so your your your your contempt for hate so your your your your contempt for hate so your your your your contempt for those who are politically different uh those who are politically different uh those who are politically different uh has become so profound that it motivates has become so profound that it motivates has become so profound that it motivates voting decisions even more than in party voting decisions even more than in party voting decisions even more than in party love so you know for those of us who love so you know for those of us who love so you know for those of us who want to say you know our politics should want to say you know our politics should want to say you know our politics should should Aspire for the common good should Aspire for the common good should Aspire for the common good they're saying no we're like so far they're saying no we're like so far they're saying no we're like so far beyond that not even a positive tribal beyond that not even a positive tribal beyond that not even a positive tribal sentiment s sort of like the advancement

sentiment s sort of like the advancement sentiment s sort of like the advancement of One's Own tribe that's not guiding of One's Own tribe that's not guiding of One's Own tribe that's not guiding things anymore for many voters uh that things anymore for many voters uh that things anymore for many voters uh that would be too high of an aspiration would be too high of an aspiration would be too high of an aspiration they're motivated by harming their they're motivated by harming their they're motivated by harming their political opponents even if it causes political opponents even if it causes political opponents even if it causes them and their own tribe uh harm harm them and their own tribe uh harm harm them and their own tribe uh harm harm itself which is you you know a a pretty itself which is you you know a a pretty itself which is you you know a a pretty pretty D way to start this pretty D way to start this pretty D way to start this interview yeah but I mean that's why interview yeah but I mean that's why interview yeah but I mean that's why we're having this interview Michael all we're having this interview Michael all we're having this interview Michael all right big question there'll be a million right big question there'll be a million right big question there'll be a million answers to this but I'd love your take answers to this but I'd love your take answers to this but I'd love your take how did we get here how did we get here how did we get here how did we get here how did we get here how did we get here was it always this way I mean I seem to was it always this way I mean I seem to was it always this way I mean I seem to remember the '90s fairly well I don't remember the '90s fairly well I don't remember the '90s fairly well I don't think it was this much vital yeah so so one thing that I like about the so so one thing that I like about the framework of political sectarianism is framework of political sectarianism is framework of political sectarianism is that it sort of avoids discourse about that it sort of avoids discourse about that it sort of avoids discourse about um is this the worst polarization has um is this the worst polarization has um is this the worst polarization has ever been because then you're inevitably ever been because then you're inevitably ever been because then you're inevitably led to say well it seems like we were led to say well it seems like we were led to say well it seems like we were pretty divided during the Civil War or pretty divided during the Civil War or pretty divided during the Civil War or you you you know and so I I don't know if well let's know and so I I don't know if well let's know and so I I don't know if well let's frame it into our lifetime it seems to frame it into our lifetime it seems to frame it into our lifetime it seems to have escalated over the last few decades have escalated over the last few decades have escalated over the last few decades here's what I'll I'll pick out a few here's what I'll I'll pick out a few here's what I'll I'll pick out a few things um I think the things um I think the things um I think the sophistication of political and media sophistication of political and media sophistication of political and media technology technology technology has played a has played a significant has played a has played a significant has played a has played a significant role so political actors can reach more role so political actors can reach more role so political actors can reach more into your personal life and reach

into your personal life and reach into your personal life and reach individuals uh in a more targeted way individuals uh in a more targeted way individuals uh in a more targeted way than ever before that's had a than ever before that's had a than ever before that's had a significant uh that's had a significant significant uh that's had a significant significant uh that's had a significant impact I think that a lot of what we're impact I think that a lot of what we're impact I think that a lot of what we're seeing is a result of um huge societal seeing is a result of um huge societal seeing is a result of um huge societal and cultural tectonic uh plate shifting and cultural tectonic uh plate shifting and cultural tectonic uh plate shifting and so that's a part of what's going on and so that's a part of what's going on and so that's a part of what's going on here um we could talk about how here um we could talk about how here um we could talk about how campaigns are financed we could talk campaigns are financed we could talk campaigns are financed we could talk about the fact that we do have some about the fact that we do have some about the fact that we do have some really like serious issues that are um really like serious issues that are um really like serious issues that are um uh uh under under discussion right now uh uh under under discussion right now uh uh under under discussion right now um but I I think people are not crazy to um but I I think people are not crazy to um but I I think people are not crazy to think that um gosh I don't seem to think that um gosh I don't seem to think that um gosh I don't seem to remember politics uh encroaching on my remember politics uh encroaching on my remember politics uh encroaching on my my emotional and social life uh and sort my emotional and social life uh and sort my emotional and social life uh and sort of um how I related to others 20 years of um how I related to others 20 years of um how I related to others 20 years ago in the way that it seems to now I ago in the way that it seems to now I ago in the way that it seems to now I think that's a that's a real thing do think that's a that's a real thing do think that's a that's a real thing do you have any idea why it seems to have you have any idea why it seems to have you have any idea why it seems to have captivated Christian Minds to the extent captivated Christian Minds to the extent captivated Christian Minds to the extent it has I mean my theory in a perfect it has I mean my theory in a perfect it has I mean my theory in a perfect world is we would have been immune from world is we would have been immune from world is we would have been immune from the sectarianism and the partisanship uh the sectarianism and the partisanship uh the sectarianism and the partisanship uh we've gone for it hook line and sinker we've gone for it hook line and sinker we've gone for it hook line and sinker any theories on why Christians have been any theories on why Christians have been any theories on why Christians have been so susceptible to the and maybe even so susceptible to the and maybe even so susceptible to the and maybe even fueling this cultural tide yeah I I fueling this cultural tide yeah I I fueling this cultural tide yeah I I think there was think there was think there was a in in the modern sort of a in in the modern sort of a in in the modern sort of incarnation um I think I think in the incarnation um I think I think in the incarnation um I think I think in the 80s and the 90s there was this

80s and the 90s there was this 80s and the 90s there was this um there was this move in um there was this move in um there was this move in which uh there was a sense that our which uh there was a sense that our which uh there was a sense that our religion was giving politics religion was giving politics religion was giving politics meaning that calcified and soured to an meaning that calcified and soured to an meaning that calcified and soured to an extent that as so the social science extent that as so the social science extent that as so the social science data and I just think our own lived data and I just think our own lived data and I just think our own lived experience sort of suggests is that U experience sort of suggests is that U experience sort of suggests is that U that soured and turned inward so that it that soured and turned inward so that it that soured and turned inward so that it was actually politics that was giving was actually politics that was giving was actually politics that was giving religion meaning and so I I I I I talk religion meaning and so I I I I I talk religion meaning and so I I I I I talk in in my book about this development of in in my book about this development of in in my book about this development of what I call uh uh politic sensitive what I call uh uh politic sensitive what I call uh uh politic sensitive churches so we have the Seeker sensitive churches so we have the Seeker sensitive churches so we have the Seeker sensitive movement the politic sensitive movement movement the politic sensitive movement movement the politic sensitive movement um relates to churches making um relates to churches making um relates to churches making decisions uh that are uh driven by and decisions uh that are uh driven by and decisions uh that are uh driven by and oriented around either attracting a oriented around either attracting a oriented around either attracting a certain kind of political persuasion or certain kind of political persuasion or certain kind of political persuasion or repelling a certain kind of political repelling a certain kind of political repelling a certain kind of political persuasion and persuasion and persuasion and so that is that's not happening so that is that's not happening so that is that's not happening everywhere that is certainly part of the everywhere that is certainly part of the everywhere that is certainly part of the part of the dynamic which is that we part of the dynamic which is that we part of the dynamic which is that we have um uh uh there is for so many it is have um uh uh there is for so many it is have um uh uh there is for so many it is hard to distinguish where their hard to distinguish where their hard to distinguish where their political views uh uh uh where where political views uh uh uh where where political views uh uh uh where where their religions uh uh hard to their religions uh uh hard to their religions uh uh hard to distinguish what are religious distinguish what are religious distinguish what are religious convictions from what are political convictions from what are political convictions from what are political convictions or opinions uh and when you convictions or opinions uh and when you convictions or opinions uh and when you can't separate those out when when you

can't separate those out when when you can't separate those out when when you can't distinguish what is Dogma what is can't distinguish what is Dogma what is can't distinguish what is Dogma what is what is the word of God from what is what is the word of God from what is what is the word of God from what is your translation of ultimate principles your translation of ultimate principles your translation of ultimate principles into the credential realm of politics CS into the credential realm of politics CS into the credential realm of politics CS Lewis called that um uh uh using God's Lewis called that um uh uh using God's Lewis called that um uh uh using God's name in vain he said it was a violation name in vain he said it was a violation name in vain he said it was a violation of the of the third commandment to to of the of the third commandment to to of the of the third commandment to to claim God hath said something in in in claim God hath said something in in in claim God hath said something in in in our political life uh on on an issue or our political life uh on on an issue or our political life uh on on an issue or in an area where he hasn't spoken and we in an area where he hasn't spoken and we in an area where he hasn't spoken and we we have we have quite a bit of that well we have we have quite a bit of that well we have we have quite a bit of that well and he was writing in England in the and he was writing in England in the and he was writing in England in the 1940s 50s and Beyond I mean literally 1940s 50s and Beyond I mean literally 1940s 50s and Beyond I mean literally during a raging World War where good and during a raging World War where good and during a raging World War where good and evil were at stake and he's hey hey yeah evil were at stake and he's hey hey yeah evil were at stake and he's hey hey yeah uh so you know historians it's uh so you know historians it's uh so you know historians it's interesting I mean I have a degree in interesting I mean I have a degree in interesting I mean I have a degree in history I'm not an a historian but history I'm not an a historian but history I'm not an a historian but historians often look back on it era and historians often look back on it era and historians often look back on it era and they can say okay these were the factors they can say okay these were the factors they can say okay these were the factors that contributed to X to that contributed to X to that contributed to X to industrialization to uh the rise of industrialization to uh the rise of industrialization to uh the rise of totalitarianism in the 20th century etc totalitarianism in the 20th century etc totalitarianism in the 20th century etc etc that there were certain factors when etc that there were certain factors when etc that there were certain factors when you look back on the 80s and 90s you you look back on the 80s and 90s you you look back on the 80s and 90s you have any theories on what made us ripe have any theories on what made us ripe have any theories on what made us ripe for the picking like what factors for the picking like what factors for the picking like what factors converged to make um the idea I forget converged to make um the idea I forget converged to make um the idea I forget exactly how you phrased it but it was exactly how you phrased it but it was exactly how you phrased it but it was like we were trying to bring politics to like we were trying to bring politics to like we were trying to bring politics to religion or try and bring religion to religion or try and bring religion to religion or try and bring religion to politics but we ended up bringing politics but we ended up bringing politics but we ended up bringing politics to religion I think that's that politics to religion I think that's that politics to religion I think that's that really resonates as true what made us really resonates as true what made us really resonates as true what made us susceptible to that any susceptible to that any susceptible to that any thoughts well look I mean right it's not

thoughts well look I mean right it's not thoughts well look I mean right it's not just a a binary sort of you know I think just a a binary sort of you know I think just a a binary sort of you know I think a lot of people care about politics a lot of people care about politics a lot of people care about politics because they see the way political because they see the way political because they see the way political decisions affect their communities and decisions affect their communities and decisions affect their communities and and they they they feel and they they they feel and they they they feel motivated even by their faith to motivated even by their faith to motivated even by their faith to participate in politics and and I think participate in politics and and I think participate in politics and and I think that could be a very healthy thing I that could be a very healthy thing I that could be a very healthy thing I mean I've spent much of my life mean I've spent much of my life mean I've spent much of my life encouraging a sort healthy Christian encouraging a sort healthy Christian encouraging a sort healthy Christian Civic engagement um I I I do think that Civic engagement um I I I do think that Civic engagement um I I I do think that there is a mode of there is a mode of there is a mode of affiliation that we have brought to to affiliation that we have brought to to affiliation that we have brought to to politics that then affects how how we politics that then affects how how we politics that then affects how how we view our faith and so if if view our faith and so if if view our faith and so if if um Dallas Willard who's been very um Dallas Willard who's been very um Dallas Willard who's been very influential in my life uh referred to influential in my life uh referred to influential in my life uh referred to gosip of sin management and uh referred gosip of sin management and uh referred gosip of sin management and uh referred to barcode faith and the idea here is to barcode faith and the idea here is to barcode faith and the idea here is that kind of like a grocery uh a grocery that kind of like a grocery uh a grocery that kind of like a grocery uh a grocery store scanner so long as you have the store scanner so long as you have the store scanner so long as you have the right label slapped on you uh you might right label slapped on you uh you might right label slapped on you uh you might be a bag of of green beans uh but if the be a bag of of green beans uh but if the be a bag of of green beans uh but if the barcode is for pretzels that that barod barcode is for pretzels that that barod barcode is for pretzels that that barod Barcode Scanner is going to read as Barcode Scanner is going to read as Barcode Scanner is going to read as pretzels and you're good to go so as pretzels and you're good to go so as pretzels and you're good to go so as long as As a Christian you are willing long as As a Christian you are willing long as As a Christian you are willing to provide mental Ascent to a few lines to provide mental Ascent to a few lines to provide mental Ascent to a few lines of key Doctrine you're you're going to of key Doctrine you're you're going to of key Doctrine you're you're going to the good place you're on the on the good place you're on the on the good place you're on the on the politics has functioned much the the politics has functioned much the the politics has functioned much the same way where what it has meant to have same way where what it has meant to have same way where what it has meant to have a Christian politics is to have the

a Christian politics is to have the a Christian politics is to have the right position on a few issues and so right position on a few issues and so right position on a few issues and so long as you do that you could Advance long as you do that you could Advance long as you do that you could Advance those positions in the most sort of those positions in the most sort of those positions in the most sort of destructive belligerent way possible but destructive belligerent way possible but destructive belligerent way possible but nothing could be said about the nothing could be said about the nothing could be said about the Christian content of your politics Christian content of your politics Christian content of your politics because you were willing you you had the because you were willing you you had the because you were willing you you had the right answer ansers on the right set of right answer ansers on the right set of right answer ansers on the right set of questions and and that Synergy made a questions and and that Synergy made a questions and and that Synergy made a religion uh at least certain slices of religion uh at least certain slices of religion uh at least certain slices of American religion uh very attractive to American religion uh very attractive to American religion uh very attractive to politicians and so you see politicians politicians and so you see politicians politicians and so you see politicians approaching religious communities not uh approaching religious communities not uh approaching religious communities not uh as a source of as a source of as a source of accountability or even as a source of accountability or even as a source of accountability or even as a source of knowledge but as a constituency group as knowledge but as a constituency group as knowledge but as a constituency group as a group that they would like to a group that they would like to a group that they would like to affiliate with and that they would like affiliate with and that they would like affiliate with and that they would like that group to affiliate with them uh and that group to affiliate with them uh and that group to affiliate with them uh and that is not a healthy relationship for that is not a healthy relationship for that is not a healthy relationship for Christians to have with politics um when Christians to have with politics um when Christians to have with politics um when we're going to politics to get our ears we're going to politics to get our ears we're going to politics to get our ears tickled as opposed to Bringing knowledge tickled as opposed to Bringing knowledge tickled as opposed to Bringing knowledge that is fit for public decision making that is fit for public decision making that is fit for public decision making um we we um we we we we undermine our um we we um we we we we undermine our um we we um we we we we undermine our faith and I think we we actually um the faith and I think we we actually um the faith and I think we we actually um the public suffers from a lack of of real public suffers from a lack of of real public suffers from a lack of of real Christian contribution H you know you're Christian contribution H you know you're Christian contribution H you know you're reminding me you know I never had Billy reminding me you know I never had Billy reminding me you know I never had Billy Graham on the podcast but talked to some Graham on the podcast but talked to some Graham on the podcast but talked to some people who knew him well and you think people who knew him well and you think people who knew him well and you think about Billy Graham being summoned to the about Billy Graham being summoned to the about Billy Graham being summoned to the White House or Gordon McDonald's talked White House or Gordon McDonald's talked White House or Gordon McDonald's talked about it I think here about being about it I think here about being about it I think here about being summoned to the white house right after

summoned to the white house right after summoned to the white house right after the Monica Lewinsky incident during the the Monica Lewinsky incident during the the Monica Lewinsky incident during the Bill Clinton administration but you were Bill Clinton administration but you were Bill Clinton administration but you were being called in as a counselor as a being called in as a counselor as a being called in as a counselor as a pastor as an advisor not as hey your ey pastor as an advisor not as hey your ey pastor as an advisor not as hey your ey candy for some votes although that might candy for some votes although that might candy for some votes although that might have been you a slight Factor but you have been you a slight Factor but you have been you a slight Factor but you know Graham he advised Democrats and know Graham he advised Democrats and know Graham he advised Democrats and Republicans alike and now it's more of Republicans alike and now it's more of Republicans alike and now it's more of an alliance like we want your an alliance like we want your an alliance like we want your constituency which is interesting so um constituency which is interesting so um constituency which is interesting so um your book by the way for those who your book by the way for those who your book by the way for those who haven't read it um does a beautiful job haven't read it um does a beautiful job haven't read it um does a beautiful job if you love Dallas Willard fusing if you love Dallas Willard fusing if you love Dallas Willard fusing Dallas's Theology and observations with Dallas's Theology and observations with Dallas's Theology and observations with our current situation you do that our current situation you do that our current situation you do that throughout I think quite quite throughout I think quite quite throughout I think quite quite beautifully uh but you're also close beautifully uh but you're also close beautifully uh but you're also close with Tim Keller and one of the with Tim Keller and one of the with Tim Keller and one of the conversations we had with with Tim that conversations we had with with Tim that conversations we had with with Tim that we were able to do before he passed was we were able to do before he passed was we were able to do before he passed was uh you know if you're starting again in uh you know if you're starting again in uh you know if you're starting again in Ministry what would you focus on and he Ministry what would you focus on and he Ministry what would you focus on and he said this time it would be identity and said this time it would be identity and said this time it would be identity and he talked about how identity was such a he talked about how identity was such a he talked about how identity was such a defining issue that's infusing our our defining issue that's infusing our our defining issue that's infusing our our sexuality any thoughts on Politics as sexuality any thoughts on Politics as sexuality any thoughts on Politics as identity and partisanship as identity identity and partisanship as identity identity and partisanship as identity yeah quite a bit there yeah quite a bit there yeah quite a bit there um uh there's a lot of conversation now um uh there's a lot of conversation now um uh there's a lot of conversation now about sort of Christians in America about sort of Christians in America about sort of Christians in America feeling politically feeling politically feeling politically homeless and I think that there is some homeless and I think that there is some homeless and I think that there is some I I think that there are ways in which I I think that there are ways in which I I think that there are ways in which that can gesture in a helpful Direction that can gesture in a helpful Direction that can gesture in a helpful Direction but what I've said is that the the but what I've said is that the the but what I've said is that the the crisis is not that Christians are crisis is not that Christians are crisis is not that Christians are politically homeless the crisis is that politically homeless the crisis is that politically homeless the crisis is that we ever thought we could make our home we ever thought we could make our home we ever thought we could make our home in politics at all and and this this

in politics at all and and this this in politics at all and and this this idea um that we are sort of uh longing idea um that we are sort of uh longing idea um that we are sort of uh longing for a candidate or a party in which we for a candidate or a party in which we for a candidate or a party in which we feel completely at home in which sort of feel completely at home in which sort of feel completely at home in which sort of we do not have to operate as a check or we do not have to operate as a check or we do not have to operate as a check or as uh John Tyson and many others would as uh John Tyson and many others would as uh John Tyson and many others would say a sort of creative minority within say a sort of creative minority within say a sort of creative minority within that that sort of uh uh uh uh system um that that sort of uh uh uh uh system um that that sort of uh uh uh uh system um that that longing is one we need to be that that longing is one we need to be that that longing is one we need to be very cautious of uh it suggests that we very cautious of uh it suggests that we very cautious of uh it suggests that we want to find an identity and secure an want to find an identity and secure an want to find an identity and secure an identity in something other than Christ identity in something other than Christ identity in something other than Christ that that our identity would be more that that our identity would be more that that our identity would be more secure if we could just feel perfectly secure if we could just feel perfectly secure if we could just feel perfectly comfortable in our politics and in our comfortable in our politics and in our comfortable in our politics and in our politic community and so I think politic community and so I think politic community and so I think identity plays a a a a really key role identity plays a a a a really key role identity plays a a a a really key role in some of these Dynamics I think so in some of these Dynamics I think so in some of these Dynamics I think so much of the um there's a much of the um there's a much of the um there's a misunderstanding among both Christians misunderstanding among both Christians misunderstanding among both Christians and and and non-christians that the non-christians that the non-christians that the anxiety and some of the belligerence anxiety and some of the belligerence anxiety and some of the belligerence that we see in our politics is a result that we see in our politics is a result that we see in our politics is a result of uh of uh of uh overconfidence of people who are just overconfidence of people who are just overconfidence of people who are just too confident in what they know and and too confident in what they know and and too confident in what they know and and I I would suggest that when you see I I would suggest that when you see I I would suggest that when you see insecurity when you see belligerence insecurity when you see belligerence insecurity when you see belligerence when you see anxiety in our politics when you see anxiety in our politics when you see anxiety in our politics it's not an abundance of confidence it's it's not an abundance of confidence it's it's not an abundance of confidence it's actually a a a a complete lack of it uh actually a a a a complete lack of it uh actually a a a a complete lack of it uh it's a it's a complete um you have to it's a it's a complete um you have to it's a it's a complete um you have to work up certainty because you lack

work up certainty because you lack work up certainty because you lack confidence in where you stand and who confidence in where you stand and who confidence in where you stand and who you are and that's a major function in you are and that's a major function in you are and that's a major function in our in our in our politics today I I'd love to go one layer down on today I I'd love to go one layer down on that I remember another Keller uh I that I remember another Keller uh I that I remember another Keller uh I think this was in a sermon or talk he think this was in a sermon or talk he think this was in a sermon or talk he was giving um and he was quoting a was giving um and he was quoting a was giving um and he was quoting a Jewish rabbi who said you know you look Jewish rabbi who said you know you look Jewish rabbi who said you know you look at what's happened in the last century at what's happened in the last century at what's happened in the last century century and a half with the death of God century and a half with the death of God century and a half with the death of God quote quote unquote nii you know the quote quote unquote nii you know the quote quote unquote nii you know the decline of God in culture becoming a decline of God in culture becoming a decline of God in culture becoming a post-christian culture Etc some would post-christian culture Etc some would post-christian culture Etc some would argue now a pre-christian culture yeah argue now a pre-christian culture yeah argue now a pre-christian culture yeah he said there were certain things that he said there were certain things that he said there were certain things that God always bore for people it's like we God always bore for people it's like we God always bore for people it's like we trusted him at a deeper level than we do trusted him at a deeper level than we do trusted him at a deeper level than we do now we knew that God was the center of now we knew that God was the center of now we knew that God was the center of Bedrock identity of life and Keller was Bedrock identity of life and Keller was Bedrock identity of life and Keller was comparing it to I think the Instagram comparing it to I think the Instagram comparing it to I think the Instagram wedding like all the pressure that wedding like all the pressure that wedding like all the pressure that couples put on each other now because if couples put on each other now because if couples put on each other now because if all you have is each other that wedding all you have is each other that wedding all you have is each other that wedding better be perfect that wedding better better be perfect that wedding better better be perfect that wedding better cost $50,000 I'm I'm paraphrasing him cost $50,000 I'm I'm paraphrasing him cost $50,000 I'm I'm paraphrasing him here but you know and then and then why here but you know and then and then why here but you know and then and then why do marriages suffer so much I mean do marriages suffer so much I mean do marriages suffer so much I mean they've always suffered they've always they've always suffered they've always they've always suffered they've always been a challenge but because all of my been a challenge but because all of my been a challenge but because all of my hopes and dreams are now invested in my hopes and dreams are now invested in my hopes and dreams are now invested in my my wife yes and if she doesn't deliver my wife yes and if she doesn't deliver my wife yes and if she doesn't deliver if she doesn't deliver I'm dead and I if she doesn't deliver I'm dead and I if she doesn't deliver I'm dead and I wonder if some of that identity has been wonder if some of that identity has been wonder if some of that identity has been fused to other things you know Keller fused to other things you know Keller fused to other things you know Keller talked about job or security or church talked about job or security or church talked about job or security or church or whatever in the early but he says now or whatever in the early but he says now or whatever in the early but he says now it seems to be identity any further it seems to be identity any further it seems to be identity any further thoughts on what we may have cashed in

thoughts on what we may have cashed in thoughts on what we may have cashed in as a people of faith and why politics as a people of faith and why politics as a people of faith and why politics has risen as the current Idol h know so so there is there there Idol h know so so there is there there have been have been have been two ways in the modern era in which two ways in the modern era in which two ways in the modern era in which Christianity has been viewed uh in Christianity has been viewed uh in Christianity has been viewed uh in politics and that is as something that politics and that is as something that politics and that is as something that is either useless or as something to be is either useless or as something to be is either useless or as something to be used used used um and and what I'm focused on uh is how um and and what I'm focused on uh is how um and and what I'm focused on uh is how do we place Politics as within and under do we place Politics as within and under do we place Politics as within and under the life we are living with the life we are living with the life we are living with Jesus and and that has been that was Jesus and and that has been that was Jesus and and that has been that was part of what we traded out uh for for part of what we traded out uh for for part of what we traded out uh for for those who invested sort of ultimate hope those who invested sort of ultimate hope those who invested sort of ultimate hope in politics now the good news in politics now the good news in politics now the good news is is is um I think there's good reason to think um I think there's good reason to think um I think there's good reason to think that these sort of secondary hopes are that these sort of secondary hopes are that these sort of secondary hopes are reaching their end that people are reaching their end that people are reaching their end that people are coming to realize that kind of going coming to realize that kind of going coming to realize that kind of going this is bankrupt this is bankrupt like this is bankrupt this is bankrupt like this is bankrupt this is bankrupt like we can do a lot of good through through we can do a lot of good through through we can do a lot of good through through politics politics is essential all all politics politics is essential all all politics politics is essential all all of these things but but it's it's not of these things but but it's it's not of these things but but it's it's not the kingdom come um and uh it is but the kingdom come um and uh it is but the kingdom come um and uh it is but there's a there's a this is a longer there's a there's a this is a longer there's a there's a this is a longer story but but there's a German story but but there's a German story but but there's a German psychologist Herman uh uh uh Herbert psychologist Herman uh uh uh Herbert psychologist Herman uh uh uh Herbert plug who studied uh individuals who had

plug who studied uh individuals who had plug who studied uh individuals who had gone through severe depression and he gone through severe depression and he gone through severe depression and he wanted to know what helped them get out wanted to know what helped them get out wanted to know what helped them get out on the other side died of that on the other side died of that on the other side died of that depression and he said exactly this that depression and he said exactly this that depression and he said exactly this that they had they had reached sort of the they had they had reached sort of the they had they had reached sort of the utter disappointment in their secondary utter disappointment in their secondary utter disappointment in their secondary Hopes And for those who made Hopes And for those who made Hopes And for those who made it when they reached the bottom they it when they reached the bottom they it when they reached the bottom they actually went deeper into grounding actually went deeper into grounding actually went deeper into grounding their hope in in in a in real hope in a their hope in in in a in real hope in a their hope in in in a in real hope in a primary hope in an ultimate hope um and primary hope in an ultimate hope um and primary hope in an ultimate hope um and that is the opportunity that lies ahead that is the opportunity that lies ahead that is the opportunity that lies ahead of us right now for for those who of us right now for for those who of us right now for for those who thought that thought that thought that electing the right candidate was going electing the right candidate was going electing the right candidate was going to take care of all the problems for to take care of all the problems for to take care of all the problems for those who thought that if if we could if those who thought that if if we could if those who thought that if if we could if if only the church could be completely if only the church could be completely if only the church could be completely converted to my political opinions then converted to my political opinions then converted to my political opinions then oh we'd have you know everything would oh we'd have you know everything would oh we'd have you know everything would would be in going in in the right would be in going in in the right would be in going in in the right direction if we let go of some of those direction if we let go of some of those direction if we let go of some of those things then then it will free us up for things then then it will free us up for things then then it will free us up for the opportunity to choose something more the opportunity to choose something more the opportunity to choose something more real more ultimate more fundamental real more ultimate more fundamental real more ultimate more fundamental um and and that is that is the um and and that is that is the um and and that is that is the opportunity that that lies ahead of us opportunity that that lies ahead of us opportunity that that lies ahead of us now am I picking up in your tone in your now am I picking up in your tone in your now am I picking up in your tone in your words that you think maybe that Reliance words that you think maybe that Reliance words that you think maybe that Reliance on Politics as salvation has peaked and on Politics as salvation has peaked and on Politics as salvation has peaked and is perhaps on the decline or where where is perhaps on the decline or where where is perhaps on the decline or where where would you say we are on the trajectory you know I I think the trajectory you know I I think the political idolatry Works in two ways I

political idolatry Works in two ways I political idolatry Works in two ways I think there is the political idolatry of think there is the political idolatry of think there is the political idolatry of investing um all of your hope in investing um all of your hope in investing um all of your hope in politics and then I think there's the politics and then I think there's the politics and then I think there's the political idolatry of of saying that political idolatry of of saying that political idolatry of of saying that politics is this one area of life which politics is this one area of life which politics is this one area of life which is cordoned off from God and so you know is cordoned off from God and so you know is cordoned off from God and so you know I U um I I I wouldn't want to be I U um I I I wouldn't want to be I U um I I I wouldn't want to be complicit in what is happening in our in complicit in what is happening in our in complicit in what is happening in our in our politics I so I'm not GNA vote you our politics I so I'm not GNA vote you our politics I so I'm not GNA vote you know I don't let's keep politics outside know I don't let's keep politics outside know I don't let's keep politics outside of the Four Walls of the of the church of the Four Walls of the of the church of the Four Walls of the of the church well I I well I I well I I think I think we're in a moment where think I think we're in a moment where think I think we're in a moment where uh both of those possibilities sort of uh both of those possibilities sort of uh both of those possibilities sort of the idolatry of uh we need to amass as the idolatry of uh we need to amass as the idolatry of uh we need to amass as much power in politics as possible much power in politics as possible much power in politics as possible because that will save us or that will because that will save us or that will because that will save us or that will save the country and we need to keep save the country and we need to keep save the country and we need to keep politics outside of the Four Walls of politics outside of the Four Walls of politics outside of the Four Walls of the church we're in an interesting the church we're in an interesting the church we're in an interesting moment where I think there's enough moment where I think there's enough moment where I think there's enough evidence uh like palpable evidence that evidence uh like palpable evidence that evidence uh like palpable evidence that both of those approaches are wrong but both of those approaches are wrong but both of those approaches are wrong but they're still both really tempting and I they're still both really tempting and I they're still both really tempting and I think you you will still see folks think you you will still see folks think you you will still see folks trying to make them work um but but I do trying to make them work um but but I do trying to make them work um but but I do think we're at a pivot point I do think think we're at a pivot point I do think think we're at a pivot point I do think that there's a real opportunity and as I that there's a real opportunity and as I that there's a real opportunity and as I travel to churches and colleges uh travel to churches and colleges uh travel to churches and colleges uh around the country I do see a hunger for around the country I do see a hunger for around the country I do see a hunger for okay I want to reject what came okay I want to reject what came okay I want to reject what came before but I don't want to just be a before but I don't want to just be a before but I don't want to just be a pendulum swinging it like like what is a pendulum swinging it like like what is a pendulum swinging it like like what is a Christian way of thinking about our Christian way of thinking about our Christian way of thinking about our political life as something that is a political life as something that is a political life as something that is a part of the life that we're living with

part of the life that we're living with part of the life that we're living with Jesus and and that that opportunity is Jesus and and that that opportunity is Jesus and and that that opportunity is always present of course that's the always present of course that's the always present of course that's the invitation that Jesus offers to us in invitation that Jesus offers to us in invitation that Jesus offers to us in all of our life H how do I uh how do I all of our life H how do I uh how do I all of our life H how do I uh how do I put my relationship my my my marriage uh put my relationship my my my marriage uh put my relationship my my my marriage uh within the life I'm living with Jesus within the life I'm living with Jesus within the life I'm living with Jesus how do I put my job and I think a part how do I put my job and I think a part how do I put my job and I think a part of the theological development that I of the theological development that I of the theological development that I think I I hope is happening in the think I I hope is happening in the think I I hope is happening in the American church is is seeing that American church is is seeing that American church is is seeing that politics is just one more of those areas politics is just one more of those areas politics is just one more of those areas it's not this totally other thing in it's not this totally other thing in it's not this totally other thing in which the way of Jesus does not hold up which the way of Jesus does not hold up which the way of Jesus does not hold up is not viable no Paul's call in is not viable no Paul's call in is not viable no Paul's call in Colossians to take off the old self with Colossians to take off the old self with Colossians to take off the old self with its practices and put on the new self its practices and put on the new self its practices and put on the new self which is being renewed and the knowledge which is being renewed and the knowledge which is being renewed and the knowledge of the image of its creator no that's of the image of its creator no that's of the image of its creator no that's for that's for politics too so in your for that's for politics too so in your for that's for politics too so in your view what is the way of Jesus in view what is the way of Jesus in view what is the way of Jesus in politics because I think you're right it politics because I think you're right it politics because I think you're right it you either you tend to have what I have you either you tend to have what I have you either you tend to have what I have in my circles is people who are all in in my circles is people who are all in in my circles is people who are all in politically or people who are like yeah politically or people who are like yeah politically or people who are like yeah that's a secular Kingdom I'm I'm a that's a secular Kingdom I'm I'm a that's a secular Kingdom I'm I'm a political I'm I'm bailing out and I political I'm I'm bailing out and I political I'm I'm bailing out and I think what I'm picking up as we head think what I'm picking up as we head think what I'm picking up as we head into this election season is more people into this election season is more people into this election season is more people in the second Camp than the first in the second Camp than the first in the second Camp than the first there's there's a a fear having been there's there's a a fear having been there's there's a a fear having been bitten in multiple elections now it's bitten in multiple elections now it's bitten in multiple elections now it's like yeah I really am just going to put like yeah I really am just going to put like yeah I really am just going to put my head down and maybe come up for air my head down and maybe come up for air my head down and maybe come up for air in February if it's all over if we're in February if it's all over if we're in February if it's all over if we're still standing what is the problem with still standing what is the problem with still standing what is the problem with that approach oh well gosh there are a that approach oh well gosh there are a that approach oh well gosh there are a number of of problems I I mean I sense number of of problems I I mean I sense number of of problems I I mean I sense that too and it does concern me the sort

that too and it does concern me the sort that too and it does concern me the sort of idea that our politics is is of idea that our politics is is of idea that our politics is is happening to happening to happening to us um and that's the only thing that's us um and that's the only thing that's us um and that's the only thing that's happening you know that our politics is happening you know that our politics is happening you know that our politics is happening to us and we just need to like happening to us and we just need to like happening to us and we just need to like make it through we gota hope that we can make it through we gota hope that we can make it through we gota hope that we can through I think there are a number of through I think there are a number of through I think there are a number of problems with this one is just problems with this one is just problems with this one is just um politics is going to be saturating um politics is going to be saturating um politics is going to be saturating our culture and it's going to be um it's our culture and it's going to be um it's our culture and it's going to be um it's going to be one of the most obvious going to be one of the most obvious going to be one of the most obvious questions the culture is asking over the questions the culture is asking over the questions the culture is asking over the next six months next six months next six months um do do we really believe and want to um do do we really believe and want to um do do we really believe and want to suggest that that we have nothing to suggest that that we have nothing to suggest that that we have nothing to offer there that what we have to offer offer there that what we have to offer offer there that what we have to offer is our heads in the sand and that there is our heads in the sand and that there is our heads in the sand and that there now hear me what I'm not saying is that now hear me what I'm not saying is that now hear me what I'm not saying is that well that well that well that means uh uh what we have to offer should means uh uh what we have to offer should means uh uh what we have to offer should look exactly like what the rest of the look exactly like what the rest of the look exactly like what the rest of the world is offering uh what that has to world is offering uh what that has to world is offering uh what that has to mean is that we need to line up our mean is that we need to line up our mean is that we need to line up our people behind a particular kin no that's people behind a particular kin no that's people behind a particular kin no that's not what I'm saying at all I'm saying not what I'm saying at all I'm saying not what I'm saying at all I'm saying what are the Christian contributions in what are the Christian contributions in what are the Christian contributions in this in this in this area of life then this in this in this area of life then this in this in this area of life then the second thing I'd say the second thing I'd say the second thing I'd say um as a Christian uh as a as a uh person um as a Christian uh as a as a uh person um as a Christian uh as a as a uh person living in America or Canada or any place living in America or Canada or any place living in America or Canada or any place with a representative democracy you do with a representative democracy you do with a representative democracy you do not choose to have political not choose to have political not choose to have political responsibility you already have responsibility you already have responsibility you already have it and so your choice about what to do it and so your choice about what to do it and so your choice about what to do um by withdrawing for our politics you um by withdrawing for our politics you um by withdrawing for our politics you do not relieve yourself of

do not relieve yourself of do not relieve yourself of responsibility or complicity if I think responsibility or complicity if I think responsibility or complicity if I think that term is is much um is used to to that term is is much um is used to to that term is is much um is used to to much harm um uh uh your choice is how much harm um uh uh your choice is how much harm um uh uh your choice is how you're choosing to Steward the you're choosing to Steward the you're choosing to Steward the responsibility that you've been given uh responsibility that you've been given uh responsibility that you've been given uh ultimately by God and and again to to ultimately by God and and again to to ultimately by God and and again to to our last our last our last point the Christian life is about how we point the Christian life is about how we point the Christian life is about how we place that which is within our place that which is within our place that which is within our responsibility within the range as as responsibility within the range as as responsibility within the range as as Willard would say within the range of Willard would say within the range of Willard would say within the range of our effective will within the range of our effective will within the range of our effective will within the range of of God's effective will how how do we of God's effective will how how do we of God's effective will how how do we place our life in the flow of the life place our life in the flow of the life place our life in the flow of the life that God is living um and and politics I that God is living um and and politics I that God is living um and and politics I talk about politics as an essential form talk about politics as an essential form talk about politics as an essential form in which we can love our neighbor so in which we can love our neighbor so in which we can love our neighbor so it's not the essential it's not the only it's not the essential it's not the only it's not the essential it's not the only it is one essential form in which we it is one essential form in which we it is one essential form in which we want to Steward the influence and want to Steward the influence and want to Steward the influence and responsibility that we have toward the responsibility that we have toward the responsibility that we have toward the good of our neighbors now of course like good of our neighbors now of course like good of our neighbors now of course like the question is well what's the good of the question is well what's the good of the question is well what's the good of our neighbors and and what I I'd say is our neighbors and and what I I'd say is our neighbors and and what I I'd say is we have mountains of uh resources uh we have mountains of uh resources uh we have mountains of uh resources uh from the Christian faith from scripture from the Christian faith from scripture from the Christian faith from scripture from Christian tradition um from from Christian tradition um from from Christian tradition um from Christian history uh from from uh uh Christian history uh from from uh uh Christian history uh from from uh uh reading the signs of the times that can reading the signs of the times that can reading the signs of the times that can help inform us um but the second that we help inform us um but the second that we help inform us um but the second that we step into step into step into Politics the best that we can be

Politics the best that we can be Politics the best that we can be is translators of ultimate ideas say the is translators of ultimate ideas say the is translators of ultimate ideas say the Dignity of the human person into the Dignity of the human person into the Dignity of the human person into the presedential realm of politics and we're presedential realm of politics and we're presedential realm of politics and we're we're imperfect translators and so we we're imperfect translators and so we we're imperfect translators and so we want to hold lightly our political want to hold lightly our political want to hold lightly our political opinions while holding firmly to our opinions while holding firmly to our opinions while holding firmly to our confidence that the Christian faith confidence that the Christian faith confidence that the Christian faith offers real knowledge that is fit for offers real knowledge that is fit for offers real knowledge that is fit for public consideration and we we bring public consideration and we we bring public consideration and we we bring that knowledge to the Public Square so that knowledge to the Public Square so that knowledge to the Public Square so how would that be like when you think how would that be like when you think how would that be like when you think about the Christian contribution or what about the Christian contribution or what about the Christian contribution or what we can offer how would that be different we can offer how would that be different we can offer how would that be different than say Towing the Democratic or than say Towing the Democratic or than say Towing the Democratic or republican or independent or libertarian republican or independent or libertarian republican or independent or libertarian line whatever our particular natural line whatever our particular natural line whatever our particular natural flavor might be yeah so Christians uh do flavor might be yeah so Christians uh do flavor might be yeah so Christians uh do not uh uh Christians join political not uh uh Christians join political not uh uh Christians join political parties because they believe things they parties because they believe things they parties because they believe things they don't believe things because they joined don't believe things because they joined don't believe things because they joined a political party um I think there is a political party um I think there is a political party um I think there is this idea um and it it suits the this idea um and it it suits the this idea um and it it suits the political parties and political Powers political parties and political Powers political parties and political Powers really well um that if you belong to a really well um that if you belong to a really well um that if you belong to a political party you have thereby signed political party you have thereby signed political party you have thereby signed over your conscience to every jot and T over your conscience to every jot and T over your conscience to every jot and T of the party platform um that is not the of the party platform um that is not the of the party platform um that is not the role of political parties political role of political parties political role of political parties political parties uh are about mediating parties uh are about mediating parties uh are about mediating difference Not Just Between the parties difference Not Just Between the parties difference Not Just Between the parties but within the parties themselves so but within the parties themselves so but within the parties themselves so that so that would be the first thing we that so that would be the first thing we that so that would be the first thing we need we need to uh we need to get our need we need to uh we need to get our need we need to uh we need to get our mind Minds right on what it means to to

mind Minds right on what it means to to mind Minds right on what it means to to uh be a member of a political party I uh be a member of a political party I uh be a member of a political party I think the other thing we need to get our think the other thing we need to get our think the other thing we need to get our minds right are as much as sort of minds right are as much as sort of minds right are as much as sort of certain ideologies and certain certain ideologies and certain certain ideologies and certain approaches can be helpful and informing approaches can be helpful and informing approaches can be helpful and informing the Christian point of VI um uh the the Christian point of VI um uh the the Christian point of VI um uh the Christian faith Christian faith Christian faith confounds and contradicts these man-made confounds and contradicts these man-made confounds and contradicts these man-made ideologies uh at various points and so ideologies uh at various points and so ideologies uh at various points and so we do not seed our uh our thoughts we do we do not seed our uh our thoughts we do we do not seed our uh our thoughts we do not seed our our ideas or principles to not seed our our ideas or principles to not seed our our ideas or principles to these political ideologies we are we are these political ideologies we are we are these political ideologies we are we are the ones who can take TS Elliot has this the ones who can take TS Elliot has this the ones who can take TS Elliot has this great line he says you know the Folly of great line he says you know the Folly of great line he says you know the Folly of the human endeavor has been to try to the human endeavor has been to try to the human endeavor has been to try to find a system so perfect that people no find a system so perfect that people no find a system so perfect that people no longer have to be good and I think this longer have to be good and I think this longer have to be good and I think this is like the primary political conceit of is like the primary political conceit of is like the primary political conceit of our age if we just got the right system our age if we just got the right system our age if we just got the right system in place then everything else would then in place then everything else would then in place then everything else would then we then the system would impose on us a we then the system would impose on us a we then the system would impose on us a kind of order and instead what what I'd kind of order and instead what what I'd kind of order and instead what what I'd suggest what what uh what I think is the suggest what what uh what I think is the suggest what what uh what I think is the testimony of the Christian faith is that testimony of the Christian faith is that testimony of the Christian faith is that actually uh uh uh many kinds of systems actually uh uh uh many kinds of systems actually uh uh uh many kinds of systems can work more or less if we are good can work more or less if we are good can work more or less if we are good people and then if we are good people people and then if we are good people people and then if we are good people we're free to choose among the systems we're free to choose among the systems we're free to choose among the systems to find the the better and the best but to find the the better and the best but to find the the better and the best but the the kind of people we are the the kind of people we are the the kind of people we are has much to do with the kind of politics has much to do with the kind of politics has much to do with the kind of politics that we have and unless we wrestle with

that we have and unless we wrestle with that we have and unless we wrestle with that as opposed to offloading the that as opposed to offloading the that as opposed to offloading the responsibility to the powers and systems responsibility to the powers and systems responsibility to the powers and systems of of ideas and alleviate ourselves of of of ideas and alleviate ourselves of of of ideas and alleviate ourselves of the responsibility that we have and the the responsibility that we have and the the responsibility that we have and the kind of person we are um then we're kind of person we are um then we're kind of person we are um then we're really uh it's it's an it's an really uh it's it's an it's an really uh it's it's an it's an interesting Act of obfuscation you you interesting Act of obfuscation you you interesting Act of obfuscation you you you get to actually uh take on the you get to actually uh take on the you get to actually uh take on the responsibility that's not yours and responsibility that's not yours and responsibility that's not yours and alleviate yourself of the responsibility alleviate yourself of the responsibility alleviate yourself of the responsibility that is yours which is like who are you that is yours which is like who are you that is yours which is like who are you what kind of person are you when what kind of person are you when what kind of person are you when politics is in the room uh and and and politics is in the room uh and and and politics is in the room uh and and and these are the kinds of questions I think these are the kinds of questions I think these are the kinds of questions I think one of the things that's helpful is that one of the things that's helpful is that one of the things that's helpful is that conversation Falls quite naturally in conversation Falls quite naturally in conversation Falls quite naturally in the ongoing conversation and life of the the ongoing conversation and life of the the ongoing conversation and life of the church what does not fall quite church what does not fall quite church what does not fall quite naturally in the life of the church is naturally in the life of the church is naturally in the life of the church is have you seen the latest poll numbers um have you seen the latest poll numbers um have you seen the latest poll numbers um you know like have have you um uh uh you you know like have have you um uh uh you you know like have have you um uh uh you know have have you followed the latest know have have you followed the latest know have have you followed the latest um did you see what the campaigns uh um did you see what the campaigns uh um did you see what the campaigns uh their latest Financial numbers uh but their latest Financial numbers uh but their latest Financial numbers uh but but we think that's what politics is and but we think that's what politics is and but we think that's what politics is and what it must be and so it it creates an what it must be and so it it creates an what it must be and so it it creates an odd fit when we try and squeeze that odd fit when we try and squeeze that odd fit when we try and squeeze that into the life of the church and think into the life of the church and think into the life of the church and think think that's what it means to be doing think that's what it means to be doing think that's what it means to be doing politics so I think you know I want to I politics so I think you know I want to I politics so I think you know I want to I want to get to the church in a moment want to get to the church in a moment want to get to the church in a moment I'm going to get hyper practical because I'm going to get hyper practical because I'm going to get hyper practical because leaders are looking for advice but leaders are looking for advice but leaders are looking for advice but you know I used to be involved in you know I used to be involved in you know I used to be involved in politics and uh that was like way in my politics and uh that was like way in my politics and uh that was like way in my late teens early 20s I don't talk about

late teens early 20s I don't talk about late teens early 20s I don't talk about it a lot but there was a sense even then it a lot but there was a sense even then it a lot but there was a sense even then in the 80s that it was uh freedom of in the 80s that it was uh freedom of in the 80s that it was uh freedom of conscience you had people um who were a conscience you had people um who were a conscience you had people um who were a little more right leaning people within little more right leaning people within little more right leaning people within a conservative party who were a little a conservative party who were a little a conservative party who were a little more left leaning you had blue liberals more left leaning you had blue liberals more left leaning you had blue liberals and red Democrats you know all that kind and red Democrats you know all that kind and red Democrats you know all that kind of stuff so you end up you end up with a of stuff so you end up you end up with a of stuff so you end up you end up with a with a real mix and I think could say with a real mix and I think could say with a real mix and I think could say even in American politics there was a even in American politics there was a even in American politics there was a time where if you had a right-wing time where if you had a right-wing time where if you had a right-wing Democrat and a left leaning Republican Democrat and a left leaning Republican Democrat and a left leaning Republican you could almost switch parties and it you could almost switch parties and it you could almost switch parties and it you wouldn't notice much of a difference you wouldn't notice much of a difference you wouldn't notice much of a difference and there was uh if you read Dorne Doris and there was uh if you read Dorne Doris and there was uh if you read Dorne Doris kieran's Goodwin stuff a lot of kieran's Goodwin stuff a lot of kieran's Goodwin stuff a lot of collaboration between parties bipartisan collaboration between parties bipartisan collaboration between parties bipartisan motions so I think that agrees with what motions so I think that agrees with what motions so I think that agrees with what you're saying is freedom of conscience you're saying is freedom of conscience you're saying is freedom of conscience within the political system you make a within the political system you make a within the political system you make a contribution but that's not where contribution but that's not where contribution but that's not where politics has gone you have the radical politics has gone you have the radical politics has gone you have the radical left you have the radical right and left you have the radical right and left you have the radical right and almost an expectation of Conformity and almost an expectation of Conformity and almost an expectation of Conformity and a loss of freedom of speech and a loss a loss of freedom of speech and a loss a loss of freedom of speech and a loss of ability to say what you think not of ability to say what you think not of ability to say what you think not what the leader thinks I mean it's very what the leader thinks I mean it's very what the leader thinks I mean it's very it's changed very much yes what do you it's changed very much yes what do you it's changed very much yes what do you do when that is the partisan reality or do when that is the partisan reality or do when that is the partisan reality or am I missing the partisan reality in my am I missing the partisan reality in my am I missing the partisan reality in my analysis so I think that's very true for analysis so I think that's very true for analysis so I think that's very true for I think those are real challenges that I I think those are real challenges that I I think those are real challenges that I think require a particular kind of both think require a particular kind of both think require a particular kind of both pastoral and practical advice for people pastoral and practical advice for people pastoral and practical advice for people who are in elected office for those who who are in elected office for those who who are in elected office for those who are striving in political careers I are striving in political careers I are striving in political careers I think what's so interesting is um uh think what's so interesting is um uh think what's so interesting is um uh talking with people that don't have a

talking with people that don't have a talking with people that don't have a political responsibility Beyond being a political responsibility Beyond being a political responsibility Beyond being a citizen who sort of allow the political citizen who sort of allow the political citizen who sort of allow the political culture to impose its Logic on them and culture to impose its Logic on them and culture to impose its Logic on them and when you try to interrogate it they when you try to interrogate it they when you try to interrogate it they can't really name what they're afraid of can't really name what they're afraid of can't really name what they're afraid of what they're you you know so like you what they're you you know so like you what they're you you know so like you know who who cares if Mitch McConnell or know who who cares if Mitch McConnell or know who who cares if Mitch McConnell or Chuck Schumer aren't happy that you Chuck Schumer aren't happy that you Chuck Schumer aren't happy that you disagree with disagree with disagree with them yeah you're really not that them yeah you're really not that them yeah you're really not that important yeah fair enough right and and important yeah fair enough right and and important yeah fair enough right and and um so so I I do think that we do have a um so so I I do think that we do have a um so so I I do think that we do have a suffocating political culture that if we suffocating political culture that if we suffocating political culture that if we if we don't this is why the identity if we don't this is why the identity if we don't this is why the identity question is so right like if we if we question is so right like if we if we question is so right like if we if we don't understand who who we don't understand who who we don't understand who who we are um and if we don't understand sort are um and if we don't understand sort are um and if we don't understand sort of um if we think of our ourselves as of um if we think of our ourselves as of um if we think of our ourselves as just an just an just an amalgamation uh the sum of all these amalgamation uh the sum of all these amalgamation uh the sum of all these various inputs and influences vying for various inputs and influences vying for various inputs and influences vying for our attention then we can start sort of our attention then we can start sort of our attention then we can start sort of deluding oursel well I can't um I can't deluding oursel well I can't um I can't deluding oursel well I can't um I can't speak up against my party but but like speak up against my party but but like speak up against my party but but like the it's like dot dot dot you know or the it's like dot dot dot you know or the it's like dot dot dot you know or else dot dot dot and it's like okay if else dot dot dot and it's like okay if else dot dot dot and it's like okay if you plan on running for your party's you plan on running for your party's you plan on running for your party's nomination be the senator let's let's nomination be the senator let's let's nomination be the senator let's let's have a practical conversation about that have a practical conversation about that have a practical conversation about that if not if not if not um then maybe now now here here's where um then maybe now now here here's where um then maybe now now here here's where I think it gets practical for pastors I think it gets practical for pastors I think it gets practical for pastors which is that uh for for for pastors

which is that uh for for for pastors which is that uh for for for pastors they may be clear on where their they may be clear on where their they may be clear on where their responsibilities are but if their responsibilities are but if their responsibilities are but if their congregants are imposing a political congregants are imposing a political congregants are imposing a political Logic on everything that they say and do Logic on everything that they say and do Logic on everything that they say and do then that leads that can lead to real then that leads that can lead to real then that leads that can lead to real difficulties and I think that's really difficulties and I think that's really difficulties and I think that's really what a lot of lot of leaders Community what a lot of lot of leaders Community what a lot of lot of leaders Community leaders pastors are facing which is leaders pastors are facing which is leaders pastors are facing which is which is I don't think my objecting to which is I don't think my objecting to which is I don't think my objecting to the party litmus test or the ideology um the party litmus test or the ideology um the party litmus test or the ideology um is is an issue except for people around is is an issue except for people around is is an issue except for people around me make it an issue and that's we could me make it an issue and that's we could me make it an issue and that's we could talk more about that but I think that's talk more about that but I think that's talk more about that but I think that's sort of pressive well that's a great sort of pressive well that's a great sort of pressive well that's a great signal to go there because in 2020 a lot signal to go there because in 2020 a lot signal to go there because in 2020 a lot of pastors and this shows up all over of pastors and this shows up all over of pastors and this shows up all over life right just as you were saying a lot life right just as you were saying a lot life right just as you were saying a lot of pastors thought I'm not I'm not going of pastors thought I'm not I'm not going of pastors thought I'm not I'm not going to let's let's exclude the pastors who to let's let's exclude the pastors who to let's let's exclude the pastors who took a a strictly partisan in line took a a strictly partisan in line took a a strictly partisan in line here's who to vote for Donald Trump or here's who to vote for Donald Trump or here's who to vote for Donald Trump or Joe Biden is right on everything let's Joe Biden is right on everything let's Joe Biden is right on everything let's exclude those people I think 80% 90% of exclude those people I think 80% 90% of exclude those people I think 80% 90% of the audience listening to this tried to the audience listening to this tried to the audience listening to this tried to steer a reasonable line and maybe they steer a reasonable line and maybe they steer a reasonable line and maybe they leaned a bit right or a little bit left leaned a bit right or a little bit left leaned a bit right or a little bit left but there they they had some independent but there they they had some independent but there they they had some independent agency and they thought I'm going to agency and they thought I'm going to agency and they thought I'm going to bring these folks together and it blew bring these folks together and it blew bring these folks together and it blew up in their face it's like big chunks of up in their face it's like big chunks of up in their face it's like big chunks of the congregation left because they said the congregation left because they said the congregation left because they said the right thing in the wrong tone uh the right thing in the wrong tone uh the right thing in the wrong tone uh they said the right thing but quite the they said the right thing but quite the they said the right thing but quite the right way uh they were a little too left right way uh they were a little too left right way uh they were a little too left a little too right a little too like a little too right a little too like a little too right a little too like whatever it just seemed and I got all whatever it just seemed and I got all whatever it just seemed and I got all those DMS uh you know over time and then

those DMS uh you know over time and then those DMS uh you know over time and then covid hit and it was the same thing covid hit and it was the same thing covid hit and it was the same thing right in the midst of that just right in the midst of that just right in the midst of that just explosiveness it's like well we're explosiveness it's like well we're explosiveness it's like well we're following Public Health mandates oh yeah following Public Health mandates oh yeah following Public Health mandates oh yeah but too strictly or well we're not but too strictly or well we're not but too strictly or well we're not really we're taking the most aggressive really we're taking the most aggressive really we're taking the most aggressive interpretation well you should defy the interpretation well you should defy the interpretation well you should defy the law and then boom people left and this law and then boom people left and this law and then boom people left and this is showing up in families right parents is showing up in families right parents is showing up in families right parents who vote differently than you and if you who vote differently than you and if you who vote differently than you and if you were to reveal where you stood you'd get were to reveal where you stood you'd get were to reveal where you stood you'd get this diet tribe that sounds like it came this diet tribe that sounds like it came this diet tribe that sounds like it came from the white house uh press secretary from the white house uh press secretary from the white house uh press secretary right so that's what that's what people right so that's what that's what people right so that's what that's what people are facing what do you do when you're in are facing what do you do when you're in are facing what do you do when you're in that kind of a situation and you're that kind of a situation and you're that kind of a situation and you're going to hear from the people who have going to hear from the people who have going to hear from the people who have swallowed the partisan pill yeah so I swallowed the partisan pill yeah so I swallowed the partisan pill yeah so I think right now it's a lot of triage uh think right now it's a lot of triage uh think right now it's a lot of triage uh in the American context we have an in the American context we have an in the American context we have an election in a matter of months yeah and election in a matter of months yeah and election in a matter of months yeah and I think triage is necessary like that's I think triage is necessary like that's I think triage is necessary like that's what why they call it triage and so I'm what why they call it triage and so I'm what why they call it triage and so I'm not dissuading uh folks from doing the not dissuading uh folks from doing the not dissuading uh folks from doing the work that's necessary now but it isn't work that's necessary now but it isn't work that's necessary now but it isn't it's not the ideal setting and so as it's not the ideal setting and so as it's not the ideal setting and so as pastors who are listening as as others pastors who are listening as as others pastors who are listening as as others who are listening are thinking about the who are listening are thinking about the who are listening are thinking about the triage that's triage that's triage that's necessary I would ask that they be necessary I would ask that they be necessary I would ask that they be attentive attentive attentive to what are the broader theological to what are the broader theological to what are the broader theological implications of this conversation how implications of this conversation how implications of this conversation how how my congreg are reacting to the how my congreg are reacting to the how my congreg are reacting to the conversation and what does it suggest about the work we're doing at other about the work we're doing at other times of the year what does it suggest

times of the year what does it suggest times of the year what does it suggest about the overall story narrative about the overall story narrative about the overall story narrative Theology of our church that politics is Theology of our church that politics is Theology of our church that politics is so so so combustible and you know I I think it's combustible and you know I I think it's combustible and you know I I think it's a a a reasonable I object to it but I think reasonable I object to it but I think reasonable I object to it but I think it's a reasonable expectation I think so it's a reasonable expectation I think so it's a reasonable expectation I think so so so many pastors have been caught off so so many pastors have been caught off so so many pastors have been caught off guard guard guard um the election heats up it's in the um the election heats up it's in the um the election heats up it's in the news everyone's talking about it and news everyone's talking about it and news everyone's talking about it and they say well I have um I I want to say they say well I have um I I want to say they say well I have um I I want to say something that's true um that that is something that's true um that that is something that's true um that that is scriptural uh in this context to help scriptural uh in this context to help scriptural uh in this context to help sort of clear out some of the Clutter sort of clear out some of the Clutter sort of clear out some of the Clutter but if what they're saying In the Heat but if what they're saying In the Heat but if what they're saying In the Heat of the Moment is not what they is not of the Moment is not what they is not of the Moment is not what they is not sort of is a surprise from what they sort of is a surprise from what they sort of is a surprise from what they were doing when it was an election were doing when it was an election were doing when it was an election season then I kind of um I understand season then I kind of um I understand season then I kind of um I understand why congregants would say you're being why congregants would say you're being why congregants would say you're being political so I why I did an event with political so I why I did an event with political so I why I did an event with um a number of a number of uh pastors um a number of a number of uh pastors um a number of a number of uh pastors and a Pastor said uh a pastor asked me and a Pastor said uh a pastor asked me and a Pastor said uh a pastor asked me you know um and I knew this pastor well you know um and I knew this pastor well you know um and I knew this pastor well so I felt like I we could have a direct so I felt like I we could have a direct so I felt like I we could have a direct conversation and it wasn't recorded um conversation and it wasn't recorded um conversation and it wasn't recorded um uh yes which is a real challenge these uh yes which is a real challenge these uh yes which is a real challenge these days please don't record me yeah exactly days please don't record me yeah exactly days please don't record me yeah exactly but he said you know in the of George but he said you know in the of George but he said you know in the of George Floyd you know I I spoke about racial Floyd you know I I spoke about racial Floyd you know I I spoke about racial Justice and there were members of my Justice and there were members of my Justice and there were members of my congregation that that left but I was congregation that that left but I was congregation that that left but I was just being scriptural I I wasn't I

just being scriptural I I wasn't I just being scriptural I I wasn't I wasn't wasn't being political he's not wasn't wasn't being political he's not wasn't wasn't being political he's not alone the difficult thing I had to S I I alone the difficult thing I had to S I I alone the difficult thing I had to S I I I asked him is um would someone who was in your church um would someone who was in your church prior to George Floyd think that prior to George Floyd think that prior to George Floyd think that attending to attending to attending to Justice fit in fit in that moment in Justice fit in fit in that moment in Justice fit in fit in that moment in other words if you don't build the other words if you don't build the other words if you don't build the scaffolding if you don't build the scaffolding if you don't build the scaffolding if you don't build the overall expectation so I think I think overall expectation so I think I think overall expectation so I think I think someone like um John Tyson is um in New someone like um John Tyson is um in New someone like um John Tyson is um in New in New York does does a great job of in New York does does a great job of in New York does does a great job of this John can preach about politics but this John can preach about politics but this John can preach about politics but when he does so he's built up an when he does so he's built up an when he does so he's built up an expectation in his church that this this expectation in his church that this this expectation in his church that this this what I'm saying on politics fits in the what I'm saying on politics fits in the what I'm saying on politics fits in the life of what we're doing as a church as life of what we're doing as a church as life of what we're doing as a church as a whole so it's not surprising and he a whole so it's not surprising and he a whole so it's not surprising and he spent years talking about it and spent years talking about it and spent years talking about it and building the scaffolding so it's not hey building the scaffolding so it's not hey building the scaffolding so it's not hey I'm being responsive to A1 of the I'm being responsive to A1 of the I'm being responsive to A1 of the newspaper it's hey uh what's happening newspaper it's hey uh what's happening newspaper it's hey uh what's happening in the news is responsive to the in the news is responsive to the in the news is responsive to the theology that that we've been living out theology that that we've been living out theology that that we've been living out over the course of years so of course over the course of years so of course over the course of years so of course I'm going to talk about uh uh of course I'm going to talk about uh uh of course I'm going to talk about uh uh of course I'm going to talk about how an election I'm going to talk about how an election I'm going to talk about how an election fits in to how we think about the om of fits in to how we think about the om of fits in to how we think about the om of God because we're talking about the God because we're talking about the God because we're talking about the kingdom of God every week no matter what kingdom of God every week no matter what kingdom of God every week no matter what season it is no matter what elections season it is no matter what elections season it is no matter what elections are happening and I think that is the are happening and I think that is the are happening and I think that is the the bigger question that we need to ask the bigger question that we need to ask the bigger question that we need to ask what what concerns me is if we

what what concerns me is if we what what concerns me is if we um if we just view an election season as um if we just view an election season as um if we just view an election season as something to something to something to dread then once it's over we go phew dread then once it's over we go phew dread then once it's over we go phew thank goodness don't have to deal with thank goodness don't have to deal with thank goodness don't have to deal with that for another three and a half years that for another three and a half years that for another three and a half years four years yeah exct back in the same four years yeah exct back in the same four years yeah exct back in the same spot and our people are no more prepared spot and our people are no more prepared spot and our people are no more prepared to deal to deal to deal with actually they're less prepared with actually they're less prepared with actually they're less prepared because political technology is only because political technology is only because political technology is only going to increase in its sophistication going to increase in its sophistication going to increase in its sophistication and so so that would be the CH you know and so so that would be the CH you know and so so that would be the CH you know what can you do in what can you do in what can you do in 2025 um that has an eye 2025 um that has an eye 2025 um that has an eye towards the moment so Willard would call towards the moment so Willard would call towards the moment so Willard would call it sort of off the spot training what it sort of off the spot training what it sort of off the spot training what does the off the spot training look like does the off the spot training look like does the off the spot training look like so that when you're on the spot you're so that when you're on the spot you're so that when you're on the spot you're people react they're they're different people react they're they're different people react they're they're different kind of people they will respond to the kind of people they will respond to the kind of people they will respond to the kinds of provocations that our politics kinds of provocations that our politics kinds of provocations that our politics offers in a different in a different way offers in a different in a different way offers in a different in a different way so that's great long-term advice and I so that's great long-term advice and I so that's great long-term advice and I agree Rich votus has talked about that agree Rich votus has talked about that agree Rich votus has talked about that John Tyson and other preachers who kind John Tyson and other preachers who kind John Tyson and other preachers who kind of build that scaffolding so I love that of build that scaffolding so I love that of build that scaffolding so I love that off the spot thing but when this off the spot thing but when this off the spot thing but when this releases we're almost exactly two months releases we're almost exactly two months releases we're almost exactly two months to the date away from an election I'm to the date away from an election I'm to the date away from an election I'm going to guess that the vast majority of going to guess that the vast majority of going to guess that the vast majority of people listening to this are like okay I people listening to this are like okay I people listening to this are like okay I haven't got any haven't got any haven't got any scaffolding uh what do I do so I want to scaffolding uh what do I do so I want to scaffolding uh what do I do so I want to give you a scenario and this may change give you a scenario and this may change give you a scenario and this may change I'm doing a handful of interviews I may I'm doing a handful of interviews I may I'm doing a handful of interviews I may have a different thought on every have a different thought on every have a different thought on every interview great but as you're talking interview great but as you're talking interview great but as you're talking I'm thinking okay if I'm going to

I'm thinking okay if I'm going to I'm thinking okay if I'm going to address this I might do a series angled address this I might do a series angled address this I might do a series angled around something like call it around something like call it around something like call it combustible all right why why are some combustible all right why why are some combustible all right why why are some topics so explosive yeah and and talk topics so explosive yeah and and talk topics so explosive yeah and and talk don't talk about the issue talk about don't talk about the issue talk about don't talk about the issue talk about the issue behind the issue and then talk the issue behind the issue and then talk the issue behind the issue and then talk about our identity where is it secure about our identity where is it secure about our identity where is it secure where is it not secure where our where is it not secure where our where is it not secure where our identity gets threatened it gets identity gets threatened it gets identity gets threatened it gets threatened by um you know it gets threatened by um you know it gets threatened by um you know it gets threatened by politics it gets threatened by politics it gets threatened by politics it gets threatened by sexuality it gets threatened by sexuality it gets threatened by sexuality it gets threatened by um income it gets threatened by um income it gets threatened by um income it gets threatened by do I own a house do I not threatened by do I own a house do I not threatened by do I own a house do I not own a house it it gets threatened by uh own a house it it gets threatened by uh own a house it it gets threatened by uh Prestige or shame or whatever I'm just Prestige or shame or whatever I'm just Prestige or shame or whatever I'm just making this up as I go along right but making this up as I go along right but making this up as I go along right but it's sort of getting at the issue under it's sort of getting at the issue under it's sort of getting at the issue under the issue I'd love your comment on that the issue I'd love your comment on that the issue I'd love your comment on that also have to issue my legal disclaimer also have to issue my legal disclaimer also have to issue my legal disclaimer uh this is not advice uh I am not uh this is not advice uh I am not uh this is not advice uh I am not intending to lose 50% of your intending to lose 50% of your intending to lose 50% of your congregation overnight so please take congregation overnight so please take congregation overnight so please take all under advisement anyway with that all under advisement anyway with that all under advisement anyway with that said Michael I mean is that a reasonable said Michael I mean is that a reasonable said Michael I mean is that a reasonable approach or do you think it this is such approach or do you think it this is such approach or do you think it this is such a Tinder Box any attempt is just going a Tinder Box any attempt is just going a Tinder Box any attempt is just going to explode at this point and you start to explode at this point and you start to explode at this point and you start after the election to build the after the election to build the after the election to build the scaffolding no I mean I I think as I scaffolding no I mean I I think as I scaffolding no I mean I I think as I said short of I think the triage is said short of I think the triage is said short of I think the triage is necessary now so so I do necessary now so so I do necessary now so so I do think for pastors who are attentive to think for pastors who are attentive to think for pastors who are attentive to their congregation and and uh have their congregation and and uh have their congregation and and uh have determined that uh this needs to be determined that uh this needs to be determined that uh this needs to be addressed I I think that approach is why addressed I I think that approach is why addressed I I think that approach is why I I am a proponent of um the issue I I am a proponent of um the issue I I am a proponent of um the issue behind the issue and not sort of taking behind the issue and not sort of taking behind the issue and not sort of taking Politics on its own terms particularly Politics on its own terms particularly Politics on its own terms particularly not A1 like Biden says Trump says or you

not A1 like Biden says Trump says or you not A1 like Biden says Trump says or you know whoever's running for office by the know whoever's running for office by the know whoever's running for office by the time this airs um yeah we think that's time this airs um yeah we think that's time this airs um yeah we think that's who it's going to be uh here's what i' who it's going to be uh here's what i' who it's going to be uh here's what i' also say I think that there are some also say I think that there are some also say I think that there are some principles uh some Christian knowledge principles uh some Christian knowledge principles uh some Christian knowledge about politics that I think are helpful about politics that I think are helpful about politics that I think are helpful footholds and sort of grasping points footholds and sort of grasping points footholds and sort of grasping points for for people to hold on to so that for for people to hold on to so that for for people to hold on to so that when they leave church and then are when they leave church and then are when they leave church and then are bombarded with if you're a real bombarded with if you're a real bombarded with if you're a real Christian you'll vote for so and so that Christian you'll vote for so and so that Christian you'll vote for so and so that they they have some some touchstones they they have some some touchstones they they have some some touchstones that they go I don't think that's quite that they go I don't think that's quite that they go I don't think that's quite right and so um in the spirit of our right and so um in the spirit of our right and so um in the spirit of our politics I talk about politics as uh not politics I talk about politics as uh not politics I talk about politics as uh not ultimate but penultimate I talk about ultimate but penultimate I talk about ultimate but penultimate I talk about politics as not the area of the dogmatic politics as not the area of the dogmatic politics as not the area of the dogmatic but the area of the credential I talk but the area of the credential I talk but the area of the credential I talk about politics as mediated and about politics as mediated and about politics as mediated and contingent I talk about politics as an contingent I talk about politics as an contingent I talk about politics as an essential form in which we can love our essential form in which we can love our essential form in which we can love our neighbors um that that a Christian neighbors um that that a Christian neighbors um that that a Christian politics is politics is politics is inherently uh necessarily oriented inherently uh necessarily oriented inherently uh necessarily oriented towards the good so redefining Politics towards the good so redefining Politics towards the good so redefining Politics as as as theological politics that's exactly theological politics that's exactly theological politics that's exactly right that's exact right that's exact right that's exact yeah okay so let's uh because we're yeah okay so let's uh because we're yeah okay so let's uh because we're we're coming up on time trying to make we're coming up on time trying to make we're coming up on time trying to make these a little bit shorter so that these a little bit shorter so that these a little bit shorter so that people listen to the whole series people listen to the whole series people listen to the whole series because it's going to be so good because it's going to be so good because it's going to be so good um worst practices if you were to blow um worst practices if you were to blow um worst practices if you were to blow up a church and uh you know ruin

up a church and uh you know ruin up a church and uh you know ruin someone's pastoral Joy between now and someone's pastoral Joy between now and someone's pastoral Joy between now and November in this partisan age what would November in this partisan age what would November in this partisan age what would you do what's a formula for disaster in you do what's a formula for disaster in you do what's a formula for disaster in other words what are some things to other words what are some things to other words what are some things to avoid avoid avoid uh punditry from the uh punditry from the uh punditry from the pulpit um and by punditry you mean I I I pulpit um and by punditry you mean I I I pulpit um and by punditry you mean I I I I mean confusing and misusing the I mean confusing and misusing the I mean confusing and misusing the authority of the pulpit a as uh to place authority of the pulpit a as uh to place authority of the pulpit a as uh to place that Authority on the authority of your that Authority on the authority of your that Authority on the authority of your political political political opinions opinions opinions um I think that there are there there um I think that there are there there um I think that there are there there are some that are some that are some that have gained numbers in doing that but have gained numbers in doing that but have gained numbers in doing that but have lost Christ at the center and I I have lost Christ at the center and I I have lost Christ at the center and I I think there are real serious pitfalls think there are real serious pitfalls think there are real serious pitfalls there um I I I I think that um I I I I think that um look there there's just so much um look there there's just so much um look there there's just so much pressure on pastors um and often when pressure on pastors um and often when pressure on pastors um and often when pastors are asked to meet a need um well pastors are asked to meet a need um well pastors are asked to meet a need um well I'll just say some sometimes their ego I'll just say some sometimes their ego I'll just say some sometimes their ego sort of getting get in the way and they sort of getting get in the way and they sort of getting get in the way and they go well this person is asking something go well this person is asking something go well this person is asking something from me and I try and give it to them I from me and I try and give it to them I from me and I try and give it to them I have an opinion so right and um nine have an opinion so right and um nine have an opinion so right and um nine times out of 10 maybe 99 out of a 100 times out of 10 maybe 99 out of a 100 times out of 10 maybe 99 out of a 100 unfortunately when your congregant is unfortunately when your congregant is unfortunately when your congregant is asking you to get to speak on Sunday asking you to get to speak on Sunday asking you to get to speak on Sunday morning about your political opinion on morning about your political opinion on morning about your political opinion on this or that they are not doing so

this or that they are not doing so this or that they are not doing so because they are just so eager to hear because they are just so eager to hear because they are just so eager to hear what the pastor has to say so that they what the pastor has to say so that they what the pastor has to say so that they could follow you know that they they you could follow you know that they they you could follow you know that they they you know I I've been wondering what to think know I I've been wondering what to think know I I've been wondering what to think about this and the second you say it I I about this and the second you say it I I about this and the second you say it I I no typically what it is is they want to no typically what it is is they want to no typically what it is is they want to use the authority of the pastor to tell use the authority of the pastor to tell use the authority of the pastor to tell the person in their small group like see the person in their small group like see the person in their small group like see now you have to shut up because Pastor now you have to shut up because Pastor now you have to shut up because Pastor said I'm right and you're wrong um and said I'm right and you're wrong um and said I'm right and you're wrong um and of course if if Pastor says that they're of course if if Pastor says that they're of course if if Pastor says that they're wrong then they go well I'm I'm out the wrong then they go well I'm I'm out the wrong then they go well I'm I'm out the door and so I I just think we need to door and so I I just think we need to door and so I I just think we need to and with room for different traditions and with room for different traditions and with room for different traditions and pastors know their congregation best and pastors know their congregation best and pastors know their congregation best congregation have different expectations congregation have different expectations congregation have different expectations along these lines and some things work along these lines and some things work along these lines and some things work in some church cultures that would that in some church cultures that would that in some church cultures that would that would be sort of uh that wouldn't fit in would be sort of uh that wouldn't fit in would be sort of uh that wouldn't fit in the the the expectations um in in another but I just expectations um in in another but I just expectations um in in another but I just caution um seriously um if if I could caution um seriously um if if I could caution um seriously um if if I could add something on the positive side I add something on the positive side I add something on the positive side I know you said we're gonna go there we're know you said we're gonna go there we're know you said we're gonna go there we're gonna go there um I guess to frame it gonna go there um I guess to frame it gonna go there um I guess to frame it well yeah let me frame it positively well yeah let me frame it positively well yeah let me frame it positively which is sure uh and and again with um which is sure uh and and again with um which is sure uh and and again with um for traditions that allow for prayers of for traditions that allow for prayers of for traditions that allow for prayers of the people or or for communal prayer at the people or or for communal prayer at the people or or for communal prayer at some portion during the service um I some portion during the service um I some portion during the service um I have found that other than loading all have found that other than loading all have found that other than loading all of the burden on the of the burden on the of the burden on the sermon uh that communal prayer sermon uh that communal prayer sermon uh that communal prayer particularly communal prayer that is not

particularly communal prayer that is not particularly communal prayer that is not manipulative so so on the bad side it manipulative so so on the bad side it manipulative so so on the bad side it would be like we pray for governor so would be like we pray for governor so would be like we pray for governor so and so that he does the right thing and and so that he does the right thing and and so that he does the right thing and and uh you know vetos you know HR and uh you know vetos you know HR and uh you know vetos you know HR whatever like that's not what we're whatever like that's not what we're whatever like that's not what we're talking about but I found it to be an talking about but I found it to be an talking about but I found it to be an exceptionally like imagination forming exceptionally like imagination forming exceptionally like imagination forming act so my church uh we I'm in um uh uh act so my church uh we I'm in um uh uh act so my church uh we I'm in um uh uh uh uh well I was in used to live in uh uh well I was in used to live in uh uh well I was in used to live in Virginia we had a republican Governor Virginia we had a republican Governor Virginia we had a republican Governor Democratic president prayed for each of Democratic president prayed for each of Democratic president prayed for each of them by name during service that that them by name during service that that them by name during service that that they and their families would be blessed they and their families would be blessed they and their families would be blessed and that their leadership would be a and that their leadership would be a and that their leadership would be a blessing to the Commonwealth and to uh blessing to the Commonwealth and to uh blessing to the Commonwealth and to uh uh and to uh to to the uh and to uh to to the uh and to uh to to the country just that the the fact that country just that the the fact that country just that the the fact that you're sitting in a church where you you're sitting in a church where you you're sitting in a church where you know I know down the road they they work know I know down the road they they work know I know down the road they they work for a different party or they they work for a different party or they they work for a different party or they they work in they work serving the governor and on in they work serving the governor and on in they work serving the governor and on the other end they tried to uh kick the the other end they tried to uh kick the the other end they tried to uh kick the governor out of office but there's with governor out of office but there's with governor out of office but there's with Jesus at the center our aspirations and Jesus at the center our aspirations and Jesus at the center our aspirations and our our our hopes are higher than just partisan hopes are higher than just partisan hopes are higher than just partisan Warfare um and just the the um the horse Warfare um and just the the um the horse Warfare um and just the the um the horse race so so using prayers of the people race so so using prayers of the people race so so using prayers of the people using uh uh a Sunday school and using using uh uh a Sunday school and using using uh uh a Sunday school and using you know I I I'm doing a number of like

you know I I I'm doing a number of like you know I I I'm doing a number of like Thursday or Friday night Church events Thursday or Friday night Church events Thursday or Friday night Church events that aren't the Sunday service but are that aren't the Sunday service but are that aren't the Sunday service but are the church asserting itself as saying the church asserting itself as saying the church asserting itself as saying the Christian faith has something to the Christian faith has something to the Christian faith has something to offer in this context but we don't need offer in this context but we don't need offer in this context but we don't need to do it on Sunday morning I think to do it on Sunday morning I think to do it on Sunday morning I think that's a really healthy thing you know that's a really healthy thing you know that's a really healthy thing you know and for those in the Evangelical and for those in the Evangelical and for those in the Evangelical tradition I have a fusion of both when tradition I have a fusion of both when tradition I have a fusion of both when you were talking about prayers of the you were talking about prayers of the you were talking about prayers of the people it reminded me I think it's the people it reminded me I think it's the people it reminded me I think it's the Anglican book of common prayer uh Anglican book of common prayer uh Anglican book of common prayer uh there's some very but you could find there's some very but you could find there's some very but you could find variety of traditions that have variety of traditions that have variety of traditions that have excellent prayers for government and excellent prayers for government and excellent prayers for government and people in authority and again if you people in authority and again if you people in authority and again if you want to contemporize but just to even want to contemporize but just to even want to contemporize but just to even get a touchstone get a touchstone get a touchstone on what some of the other longer on what some of the other longer on what some of the other longer Traditions have to say about that it is Traditions have to say about that it is Traditions have to say about that it is very neutral and very affirming of very neutral and very affirming of very neutral and very affirming of whoever happens to be in power and whoever happens to be in power and whoever happens to be in power and you're right that's great modeling so you're right that's great modeling so you're right that's great modeling so from the other perspective if you're from the other perspective if you're from the other perspective if you're going to do a couple of really wise going to do a couple of really wise going to do a couple of really wise things between now and the election what things between now and the election what things between now and the election what might that be um find a way to be um find a way to affirm Civic uh uh leaders Civic actors affirm Civic uh uh leaders Civic actors affirm Civic uh uh leaders Civic actors that are within the that are within the that are within the congregation uh help make congregation uh help make congregation uh help make clear that um that there are um there clear that um that there are um there clear that um that there are um there are people within the church that have a are people within the church that have a are people within the church that have a political vocation that is a part of the political vocation that is a part of the political vocation that is a part of the life of the church and see how you could life of the church and see how you could life of the church and see how you could tap into their skills their knowledge tap into their skills their knowledge tap into their skills their knowledge and provide an opportunity to affirm and provide an opportunity to affirm and provide an opportunity to affirm them what does that look like oh gosh I

them what does that look like oh gosh I them what does that look like oh gosh I mean it could look like a number of mean it could look like a number of mean it could look like a number of things it could look like things it could look like things it could look like um it could look like uh a time of um it could look like uh a time of um it could look like uh a time of prayer concluding a service uh saying prayer concluding a service uh saying prayer concluding a service uh saying we're going to we're going to pray over we're going to we're going to pray over we're going to we're going to pray over the people if you work in government if the people if you work in government if the people if you work in government if you if you if your work touches on the you if you if your work touches on the you if you if your work touches on the the governing of our the governing of our the governing of our community we want to pray over you could community we want to pray over you could community we want to pray over you could even be Municipal civil servants federal even be Municipal civil servants federal even be Municipal civil servants federal civil servants Etc got it public service civil servants Etc got it public service civil servants Etc got it public service people exactly right could look like um people exactly right could look like um people exactly right could look like um uh hosting an event at your church that uh hosting an event at your church that uh hosting an event at your church that has a panel of has a panel of has a panel of folks uh that that have have roles um uh folks uh that that have have roles um uh folks uh that that have have roles um uh related to to politics and Civic life um related to to politics and Civic life um related to to politics and Civic life um where where they're able to provide some where where they're able to provide some where where they're able to provide some leadership so I think I think those are leadership so I think I think those are leadership so I think I think those are those are helpful um I I I think that um I I I think that um there are a whole array of spiritual um there are a whole array of spiritual um there are a whole array of spiritual practices and practices and practices and disciplines that I think we need to disciplines that I think we need to disciplines that I think we need to think about how they directly apply to think about how they directly apply to think about how they directly apply to and counteract some of the destructive and counteract some of the destructive and counteract some of the destructive political impulses of our political impulses of our political impulses of our age um obviously study of scripture age um obviously study of scripture age um obviously study of scripture prayer I think the memorization of prayer I think the memorization of prayer I think the memorization of scripture is something I've been scripture is something I've been scripture is something I've been attending to much more I don't come from attending to much more I don't come from attending to much more I don't come from a a background or childhood where that a a background or childhood where that a a background or childhood where that was prioritized but it's become more was prioritized but it's become more was prioritized but it's become more more valuable to me um but I I I'd also more valuable to me um but I I I'd also more valuable to me um but I I I'd also think about um uh

think about um uh think about um uh fellowship and fellowship and fellowship and service I think study uh I mean uh I service I think study uh I mean uh I service I think study uh I mean uh I think silence and Solitude are think silence and Solitude are think silence and Solitude are especially essential spiritual especially essential spiritual especially essential spiritual disciplines for this age particularly disciplines for this age particularly disciplines for this age particularly when it applies to public life in when it applies to public life in when it applies to public life in politics you're right sometimes in our politics you're right sometimes in our politics you're right sometimes in our loudness and our haste we say things loudness and our haste we say things loudness and our haste we say things that are not wise yes uh and we and that are not wise yes uh and we and that are not wise yes uh and we and sometimes just shutting off the inputs sometimes just shutting off the inputs sometimes just shutting off the inputs that tell us those who disagree with you that tell us those who disagree with you that tell us those who disagree with you politically are evil though sometimes politically are evil though sometimes politically are evil though sometimes just shutting those off our vision can just shutting those off our vision can just shutting those off our vision can be clear to see the image of God in be clear to see the image of God in be clear to see the image of God in people that we disagree with and we and people that we disagree with and we and people that we disagree with and we and we realize well maybe something else is we realize well maybe something else is we realize well maybe something else is going on in the life of my uncle that going on in the life of my uncle that going on in the life of my uncle that has bad political opinions um that that has bad political opinions um that that has bad political opinions um that that I I'm called to address more than fixing I I'm called to address more than fixing I I'm called to address more than fixing his bad political opinions quote unquote his bad political opinions quote unquote his bad political opinions quote unquote um so so I think that we could be much um so so I think that we could be much um so so I think that we could be much more attentive to disciplines and and more attentive to disciplines and and more attentive to disciplines and and practices um and then I'd say practices um and then I'd say practices um and then I'd say um so uh we we um we run a a podcast um um so uh we we um we run a a podcast um um so uh we we um we run a a podcast um called the morning five and and the the called the morning five and and the the called the morning five and and the the the idea with this podcast is it's 5 to the idea with this podcast is it's 5 to the idea with this podcast is it's 5 to seven minutes Mondays through Thursdays seven minutes Mondays through Thursdays seven minutes Mondays through Thursdays and just the the idea is we open with and just the the idea is we open with and just the the idea is we open with scripture we cover headlines just like scripture we cover headlines just like scripture we cover headlines just like the driving headline the driving headline the driving headline of the day and then we close with prayer

of the day and then we close with prayer of the day and then we close with prayer and the Very like simple uh sort of and the Very like simple uh sort of and the Very like simple uh sort of blunt message of this over time is that blunt message of this over time is that blunt message of this over time is that you can trying to build up the habit and you can trying to build up the habit and you can trying to build up the habit and expectation um that God is Not anxious expectation um that God is Not anxious expectation um that God is Not anxious about the news and that we could bring about the news and that we could bring about the news and that we could bring the worries of our day even political the worries of our day even political the worries of our day even political current events to Jesus um and that is current events to Jesus um and that is current events to Jesus um and that is something that we uh that that that something that we uh that that that something that we uh that that that should be well within the the the flow should be well within the the the flow should be well within the the the flow and life of local churches not in a and life of local churches not in a and life of local churches not in a again this can be misused it can again this can be misused it can again this can be misused it can be Lord um make the politicians do what be Lord um make the politicians do what be Lord um make the politicians do what we want them to do that's not what I'm we want them to do that's not what I'm we want them to do that's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about uh talking about I'm talking about uh talking about I'm talking about uh bringing the the aches and sufferings of bringing the the aches and sufferings of bringing the the aches and sufferings of the world particularly as they affect the world particularly as they affect the world particularly as they affect our congregation and the community that our congregation and the community that our congregation and the community that we're placed in before the throne and we're placed in before the throne and we're placed in before the throne and that can be a really healthy thing and that can be a really healthy thing and that can be a really healthy thing and again reposition the responsibility that again reposition the responsibility that again reposition the responsibility that we have uh within a political and Civic we have uh within a political and Civic we have uh within a political and Civic life beyond just um partisan Warfare any life beyond just um partisan Warfare any life beyond just um partisan Warfare any tips on news consumption heading into tips on news consumption heading into tips on news consumption heading into the next few months I mean I think it's the next few months I mean I think it's the next few months I mean I think it's become an ongoing issue my own become an ongoing issue my own become an ongoing issue my own philosophy is try to spend less than 10 philosophy is try to spend less than 10 philosophy is try to spend less than 10 minutes a day on it just be a fair you minutes a day on it just be a fair you minutes a day on it just be a fair you know and from reasonably objective know and from reasonably objective know and from reasonably objective sources I know everybody can debate all

sources I know everybody can debate all sources I know everybody can debate all day long about whether that's even day long about whether that's even day long about whether that's even possible uh what what tips would you possible uh what what tips would you possible uh what what tips would you have on news consumption so I personally have on news consumption so I personally have on news consumption so I personally seek to so seek to so seek to so uh so um so a few things one I think the uh so um so a few things one I think the uh so um so a few things one I think the search for search for search for like the one unbiased Holy Grail news like the one unbiased Holy Grail news like the one unbiased Holy Grail news outlet from which I get all my news I I outlet from which I get all my news I I outlet from which I get all my news I I I don't think that exists um I don't think that exists um I don't think that exists um uh so I encourage both limiting your uh so I encourage both limiting your uh so I encourage both limiting your time but also having select Publications time but also having select Publications time but also having select Publications Outlets that are fall on different Outlets that are fall on different Outlets that are fall on different places on the political Spectrum so places on the political Spectrum so places on the political Spectrum so somewhat right somewhat left ET read somewhat right somewhat left ET read somewhat right somewhat left ET read read you know I've started doing that read you know I've started doing that read you know I've started doing that I've started to read from different I've started to read from different I've started to read from different perspectives and you start and you start perspectives and you start and you start perspectives and you start and you start to go okay if if I was reading about to go okay if if I was reading about to go okay if if I was reading about this you know I thought one thing about this you know I thought one thing about this you know I thought one thing about the story because I read in one outlet the story because I read in one outlet the story because I read in one outlet but if I was just reading this other but if I was just reading this other but if I was just reading this other Outlet I can understand now I understand Outlet I can understand now I understand Outlet I can understand now I understand the reactions of my neighbors better and the reactions of my neighbors better and the reactions of my neighbors better and and if I was them I'd probably react the and if I was them I'd probably react the and if I was them I'd probably react the same way yes and there was something same way yes and there was something same way yes and there was something often I'll say there was something that often I'll say there was something that often I'll say there was something that I was I was I was missing when I read the first outlet missing when I read the first outlet missing when I read the first outlet that is true reading the second Outlet that is true reading the second Outlet that is true reading the second Outlet even if I still disagree with like the even if I still disagree with like the even if I still disagree with like the ultimate sort of slant of it or whatever ultimate sort of slant of it or whatever ultimate sort of slant of it or whatever um do you have um recommendations of one um do you have um recommendations of one um do you have um recommendations of one or two sources to the left or to the or two sources to the left or to the or two sources to the left or to the right that you think that you know isn't right that you think that you know isn't right that you think that you know isn't just Fox CNN that kind of thing but just

just Fox CNN that kind of thing but just just Fox CNN that kind of thing but just that that would be helpful for people to that that would be helpful for people to that that would be helpful for people to investigate yeah investigate yeah investigate yeah um so uh National Affairs is a a um so uh National Affairs is a a um so uh National Affairs is a a quarterly publication but I think really quarterly publication but I think really quarterly publication but I think really really really really helpful um to sort of understand uh helpful um to sort of understand uh helpful um to sort of understand uh conservative uh arguments um their conservative uh arguments um their conservative uh arguments um their editor is yval Lev who I think is one of editor is yval Lev who I think is one of editor is yval Lev who I think is one of the most brilliant sort of public the most brilliant sort of public the most brilliant sort of public intellectuals that we have today um and intellectuals that we have today um and intellectuals that we have today um and so I I really recommend National Affairs so I I really recommend National Affairs so I I really recommend National Affairs you know I get a lot it's it's it's it's you know I get a lot it's it's it's it's you know I get a lot it's it's it's it's far to the left than than I am but far to the left than than I am but far to the left than than I am but there's a publication called the Boston there's a publication called the Boston there's a publication called the Boston Review that really helps me understand Review that really helps me understand Review that really helps me understand I'm less surprised when I hear certain I'm less surprised when I hear certain I'm less surprised when I hear certain arguments because I check in on the arguments because I check in on the arguments because I check in on the Boston Review every now and then you Boston Review every now and then you Boston Review every now and then you know I do think it's helpful to to read know I do think it's helpful to to read know I do think it's helpful to to read um um um uh the times the journal The Washington uh the times the journal The Washington uh the times the journal The Washington Post and and I I try and read Jamal Buie Post and and I I try and read Jamal Buie Post and and I I try and read Jamal Buie at the New York Times and Ross dth that at the New York Times and Ross dth that at the New York Times and Ross dth that I I read just about everything that that I I read just about everything that that I I read just about everything that that they write they're both both disagree they write they're both both disagree they write they're both both disagree probably on I don't know 70 80% but it's probably on I don't know 70 80% but it's probably on I don't know 70 80% but it's it's really helpful for me to to to it's really helpful for me to to to it's really helpful for me to to to follow certain thinkers over the long follow certain thinkers over the long follow certain thinkers over the long term um that's been helpful to me but term um that's been helpful to me but term um that's been helpful to me but but I just want to I mean so this is my but I just want to I mean so this is my but I just want to I mean so this is my vocation and so I want to Rel people of vocation and so I want to Rel people of vocation and so I want to Rel people of too much responsibility I think just the too much responsibility I think just the too much responsibility I think just the simple rules of um try to read VAR news

simple rules of um try to read VAR news simple rules of um try to read VAR news when you can try to be skeptical if when you can try to be skeptical if when you can try to be skeptical if certain news tickles your ears or your certain news tickles your ears or your certain news tickles your ears or your particular sort of um uh resentments or particular sort of um uh resentments or particular sort of um uh resentments or passions um usually if it's if if the passions um usually if it's if if the passions um usually if it's if if the news strikes you too closely like like news strikes you too closely like like news strikes you too closely like like if you think like that is just like I if you think like that is just like I if you think like that is just like I can't believe that that is happening can't believe that that is happening can't believe that that is happening usually there's more to the story usually there's more to the story usually there's more to the story sometimes there isn't but usually sometimes there isn't but usually sometimes there isn't but usually there's more to the story so you want to there's more to the story so you want to there's more to the story so you want to be skeptical of of things that be skeptical of of things that be skeptical of of things that particularly sort of um strike a sort of particularly sort of um strike a sort of particularly sort of um strike a sort of especially like gossipy sort of cord especially like gossipy sort of cord especially like gossipy sort of cord within you um and to that point I avoid within you um and to that point I avoid within you um and to that point I avoid following I don't know of a better following I don't know of a better following I don't know of a better definition of it but like gossipy definition of it but like gossipy definition of it but like gossipy political story so I don't follow every political story so I don't follow every political story so I don't follow every I mean we've had a lot of court issues I I mean we've had a lot of court issues I I mean we've had a lot of court issues I don't follow don't follow don't follow every uh every day in court I don't every uh every day in court I don't every uh every day in court I don't follow you know there will be all these follow you know there will be all these follow you know there will be all these new stories about leaks from different new stories about leaks from different new stories about leaks from different lawyers and different departments I just lawyers and different departments I just lawyers and different departments I just avoid things until they if they seem to avoid things until they if they seem to avoid things until they if they seem to be suggestive as opposed to factual be suggestive as opposed to factual be suggestive as opposed to factual factual reporting um because because I factual reporting um because because I factual reporting um because because I I'm not in a role right now where I need I'm not in a role right now where I need I'm not in a role right now where I need to um assess the reliability of to um assess the reliability of to um assess the reliability of information that I'll need to react to information that I'll need to react to information that I'll need to react to within four hours I could wait a day I within four hours I could wait a day I within four hours I could wait a day I could wait three days and see if it could wait three days and see if it could wait three days and see if it actually pans out um there have been actually pans out um there have been actually pans out um there have been other times in my life where I haven't

other times in my life where I haven't other times in my life where I haven't been able to do that but I would I would been able to do that but I would I would been able to do that but I would I would advise yeah not not sort of um not sort advise yeah not not sort of um not sort advise yeah not not sort of um not sort of following these sort of political of following these sort of political of following these sort of political entertainment stories too closely well entertainment stories too closely well entertainment stories too closely well the other thing too is attention spans the other thing too is attention spans the other thing too is attention spans have shrunk but I'm I'm in the habit now have shrunk but I'm I'm in the habit now have shrunk but I'm I'm in the habit now of actually subscribing to a couple of of actually subscribing to a couple of of actually subscribing to a couple of magazines on leadership with longer form magazines on leadership with longer form magazines on leadership with longer form thinking a friend of mine took an thinking a friend of mine took an thinking a friend of mine took an economist subscription which is sort of economist subscription which is sort of economist subscription which is sort of a global look at things and you know if a global look at things and you know if a global look at things and you know if you're talking about National Affairs I you're talking about National Affairs I you're talking about National Affairs I think I remember reading that in college think I remember reading that in college think I remember reading that in college it's been around for a while um those it's been around for a while um those it's been around for a while um those are longer form 3000w 4,000-word essays are longer form 3000w 4,000-word essays are longer form 3000w 4,000-word essays that help give you the underpinning and that help give you the underpinning and that help give you the underpinning and the understanding and again if you're the understanding and again if you're the understanding and again if you're going to build a scaffolding that's a going to build a scaffolding that's a going to build a scaffolding that's a really good discipline to have all right really good discipline to have all right really good discipline to have all right I'm going to throw a softball at you for I'm going to throw a softball at you for I'm going to throw a softball at you for my final question yeah uh when you have my final question yeah uh when you have my final question yeah uh when you have staff and Elders or senior leaders who staff and Elders or senior leaders who staff and Elders or senior leaders who disagree politically or want to bring disagree politically or want to bring disagree politically or want to bring their partisan views to the table any their partisan views to the table any their partisan views to the table any tips on managing that or how do you lead tips on managing that or how do you lead tips on managing that or how do you lead people when they want you to be partisan people when they want you to be partisan people when they want you to be partisan yeah so it's it's it's a big important yeah so it's it's it's a big important yeah so it's it's it's a big important question question question um one of the things I seek to do is um one of the things I seek to do is um one of the things I seek to do is just try and just try and just try and draw be very clear about the values draw be very clear about the values draw be very clear about the values around why you're Gathering um so I work with a lot of people who um so I work with a lot of people who who work in politics and advocacy is who work in politics and advocacy is who work in politics and advocacy is sort of part of their nature and I

sort of part of their nature and I sort of part of their nature and I affirm that in them and I'm able to say affirm that in them and I'm able to say affirm that in them and I'm able to say I think it's important too I've I've I think it's important too I've I've I think it's important too I've I've done it in I I do it now in other areas done it in I I do it now in other areas done it in I I do it now in other areas of my life and I I've done it in in of my life and I I've done it in in of my life and I I've done it in in previous stages that's not why we're previous stages that's not why we're previous stages that's not why we're here um and and uh to to sort of set the here um and and uh to to sort of set the here um and and uh to to sort of set the values while affirming people values while affirming people values while affirming people um is is really is really critical and um is is really is really critical and um is is really is really critical and not just saying what they uh what's not not just saying what they uh what's not not just saying what they uh what's not a part of the Gathering but being really a part of the Gathering but being really a part of the Gathering but being really clear on what is so so this this clear on what is so so this this clear on what is so so this this image of Jesus at the image of Jesus at the image of Jesus at the center I mean so so we run a we run a center I mean so so we run a we run a center I mean so so we run a we run a fellowship program and to open up the fellowship program and to open up the fellowship program and to open up the program the fellows AR sit in a program the fellows AR sit in a program the fellows AR sit in a circle and uh without any to do or circle and uh without any to do or circle and uh without any to do or without even referencing it uh we set up without even referencing it uh we set up without even referencing it uh we set up a stool in the middle of the circle with a stool in the middle of the circle with a stool in the middle of the circle with the cross on the cross on the cross on it and that cross is at the center for it and that cross is at the center for it and that cross is at the center for the first conversation that we have as a the first conversation that we have as a the first conversation that we have as a group um and that we're able to point group um and that we're able to point group um and that we're able to point back to it later back to it later back to it later on as as just a a a symbol of what is on as as just a a a symbol of what is on as as just a a a symbol of what is holding us holding us holding us together and what an so this is and and together and what an so this is and and together and what an so this is and and maybe this is a great place to so the maybe this is a great place to so the maybe this is a great place to so the the problem with looking at the election the problem with looking at the election the problem with looking at the election as just something to get through as as just something to get through as as just something to get through as politics just happening to us is is

um the public is so desperately looking um the public is so desperately looking for a way out of this partisan problem for a way out of this partisan problem for a way out of this partisan problem an alternative an alternative and if if an alternative an alternative and if if an alternative an alternative and if if the if the best the church can offer is the if the best the church can offer is the if the best the church can offer is gosh I hope we're still here after gosh I hope we're still here after gosh I hope we're still here after politics has its way with politics has its way with politics has its way with us instead of saying like what can we do us instead of saying like what can we do us instead of saying like what can we do with Jesus in the midst of this moment with Jesus in the midst of this moment with Jesus in the midst of this moment how might the way that we hold together how might the way that we hold together how might the way that we hold together be a witness not just for our own be a witness not just for our own be a witness not just for our own edification but for the edification of a edification but for the edification of a edification but for the edification of a watching world who has the expectation watching world who has the expectation watching world who has the expectation that people who disagree politically that people who disagree politically that people who disagree politically can't share a space together and so like can't share a space together and so like can't share a space together and so like that would be like that's the vision we that would be like that's the vision we that would be like that's the vision we need to cast that's the hope that we need to cast that's the hope that we need to cast that's the hope that we need to uh that we need to set that we need to uh that we need to set that we need to uh that we need to set that we are a community that that is known by are a community that that is known by are a community that that is known by its love for one another and that its love for one another and that its love for one another and that testifies to the love that the father testifies to the love that the father testifies to the love that the father has for us and that we have for God and has for us and that we have for God and has for us and that we have for God and and uh I want to see the church not wait and uh I want to see the church not wait and uh I want to see the church not wait until after the election to think about until after the election to think about until after the election to think about what we have to offer to the public I I what we have to offer to the public I I what we have to offer to the public I I I I want us to be thinking about what do I I want us to be thinking about what do I I want us to be thinking about what do we have to offer what is God calling us we have to offer what is God calling us we have to offer what is God calling us to now in this moment and I'll say like to now in this moment and I'll say like to now in this moment and I'll say like one of the reasons there's certainly one of the reasons there's certainly one of the reasons there's certainly like an overinvestment in politics that like an overinvestment in politics that like an overinvestment in politics that happens that tears apart the happens that tears apart the happens that tears apart the church but one of the other things that church but one of the other things that church but one of the other things that happens is that we leave a vacuum with happens is that we leave a vacuum with happens is that we leave a vacuum with no positive vision for what God can do

no positive vision for what God can do no positive vision for what God can do in a moment like this and where there's in a moment like this and where there's in a moment like this and where there's a vacuum of course other sentiments and a vacuum of course other sentiments and a vacuum of course other sentiments and other passions and and other Idols are other passions and and other Idols are other passions and and other Idols are gonna are gonna go into that vacuum and gonna are gonna go into that vacuum and gonna are gonna go into that vacuum and so I've seen this at churches around the so I've seen this at churches around the so I've seen this at churches around the country I think it's it's something country I think it's it's something country I think it's it's something that's viable we just need to have that's viable we just need to have that's viable we just need to have confidence that that that the Holy confidence that that that the Holy confidence that that that the Holy Spirit can and will be at work in our Spirit can and will be at work in our Spirit can and will be at work in our churches that Jesus mediates our churches that Jesus mediates our churches that Jesus mediates our relationships with our brothers and relationships with our brothers and relationships with our brothers and sisters and he could do that even in the sisters and he could do that even in the sisters and he could do that even in the context of politics wow well that is a context of politics wow well that is a context of politics wow well that is a great place to close Michael thank you great place to close Michael thank you great place to close Michael thank you so much for today your latest book very so much for today your latest book very so much for today your latest book very helpful is called the Spirit of our helpful is called the Spirit of our helpful is called the Spirit of our politics it's available everywhere uh politics it's available everywhere uh politics it's available everywhere uh where's a good place to find you online where's a good place to find you online where's a good place to find you online these days if we want to track with you these days if we want to track with you these days if we want to track with you yeah sure so uh uh I run the center for yeah sure so uh uh I run the center for yeah sure so uh uh I run the center for Christianity and public life and so Christianity and public life and so Christianity and public life and so folks can uh uh learn about us at ccpu folks can uh uh learn about us at ccpu folks can uh uh learn about us at ccpu life.org and would love to have folks life.org and would love to have folks life.org and would love to have folks join us at our Summit in DC October 7th join us at our Summit in DC October 7th join us at our Summit in DC October 7th and 8th and then I'm also on X uh at and 8th and then I'm also on X uh at and 8th and then I'm also on X uh at Michael rware and Instagram at Michael Michael rware and Instagram at Michael Michael rware and Instagram at Michael wear Michael thank you so much I'm wear Michael thank you so much I'm wear Michael thank you so much I'm really grateful for this convers you've really grateful for this convers you've really grateful for this convers you've added a lot to the dialogue appreciate added a lot to the dialogue appreciate added a lot to the dialogue appreciate to be with you thanks I've listened for to be with you thanks I've listened for to be with you thanks I've listened for a long time and glad to be here a it's a long time and glad to be here a it's a long time and glad to be here a it's great to meet you