Why It's Easier to Admit Faults on Stage Than in Person with Kyle Idleman

I had a friend I had a friend good, really good friend say to me good, really good friend say to me good, really good friend say to me he said he said he said he said, "I feel like I find out about your struggles I find out about your struggles by reading about them in a book or share by reading about them in a book or share by reading about them in a book or share or listening to one of your sermons." or listening to one of your sermons." or listening to one of your sermons." What's he saying to me? He's saying, What's he saying to me? He's saying, What's he saying to me? He's saying, "Hey, we "Hey, we "Hey, we we get together we get together we get together for breakfast, we sit on your front for breakfast, we sit on your front for breakfast, we sit on your front porch. You don't share those things with porch. You don't share those things with porch. You don't share those things with me, but you you share them on the stage, me, but you you share them on the stage, me, but you you share them on the stage, you put them in a book." you put them in a book." you put them in a book." And what I was confronted with was this And what I was confronted with was this And what I was confronted with was this question of why is it harder for me to question of why is it harder for me to question of why is it harder for me to share it with him Welcome to the Carey share it with him Welcome to the Carey share it with him Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, today I I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, today I I'm so glad you joined us. Hey, today I am sitting down with Kyle Idleman. What am sitting down with Kyle Idleman. What am sitting down with Kyle Idleman. What do you do when you want to punch a hole do you do when you want to punch a hole do you do when you want to punch a hole in the wall? We talk about that. We're in the wall? We talk about that. We're in the wall? We talk about that. We're going to talk about vulnerability, going to talk about vulnerability, going to talk about vulnerability, insecurity, the spiritual gift of insecurity, the spiritual gift of insecurity, the spiritual gift of disappointing people. And hey, I've got disappointing people. And hey, I've got disappointing people. And hey, I've got something brand new for you that I'm something brand new for you that I'm something brand new for you that I'm really excited about. We're doing show really excited about. We're doing show really excited about. We're doing show notes in a different way. So, obviously notes in a different way. So, obviously notes in a different way. So, obviously here on YouTube here on YouTube here on YouTube you can see what we're doing. There's you can see what we're doing. There's you can see what we're doing. There's good detailed notes and everything, but good detailed notes and everything, but good detailed notes and everything, but if you really want to dive into if you really want to dive into if you really want to dive into everything go to everything go to everything go to careynieuwhof.com/shownotes.

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good. good. What have the last few years since then What have the last few years since then What have the last few years since then been like, and what have you learned in been like, and what have you learned in been like, and what have you learned in the interim? the interim? the interim? Well, I've learned that sabbatical is Well, I've learned that sabbatical is Well, I've learned that sabbatical is not necessarily a uh friendly word now. not necessarily a uh friendly word now. not necessarily a uh friendly word now. You know, there's like when when when it You know, there's like when when when it You know, there's like when when when it gets mentioned, I feel just a little bit gets mentioned, I feel just a little bit gets mentioned, I feel just a little bit of a twitch, little uh of a twitch, little uh of a twitch, little uh You know, it was a time where I thought, You know, it was a time where I thought, You know, it was a time where I thought, "Hey, I a month break would be great." "Hey, I a month break would be great." "Hey, I a month break would be great." My elders said, "Hey, I think a little My elders said, "Hey, I think a little My elders said, "Hey, I think a little longer break would be helpful." And uh longer break would be helpful." And uh longer break would be helpful." And uh they were right, but that was hard. they were right, but that was hard. they were right, but that was hard. Well, one of the things that I have Well, one of the things that I have Well, one of the things that I have learned learned learned in the time since or through that in the time since or through that in the time since or through that experience was that you don't experience was that you don't experience was that you don't necessarily feel, or at least for me, I necessarily feel, or at least for me, I necessarily feel, or at least for me, I didn't necessarily feel the weight of a didn't necessarily feel the weight of a didn't necessarily feel the weight of a season until I'm on the other side of season until I'm on the other side of season until I'm on the other side of it. it. it. Which maybe you don't know that until Which maybe you don't know that until Which maybe you don't know that until you go through it the hard way. you go through it the hard way. you go through it the hard way. But in the middle of it, I think I'm But in the middle of it, I think I'm But in the middle of it, I think I'm doing good. My energy is good. I feel doing good. My energy is good. I feel doing good. My energy is good. I feel motivated. I'm I'm ready. motivated. I'm I'm ready. motivated. I'm I'm ready. Um I'm very focused on, you know, Um I'm very focused on, you know, Um I'm very focused on, you know, getting through or reaching a goal. getting through or reaching a goal. getting through or reaching a goal. And and I think I'm in a really healthy And and I think I'm in a really healthy And and I think I'm in a really healthy place. And then the unhealth gets place. And then the unhealth gets place. And then the unhealth gets exposed once you're through. And and I exposed once you're through. And and I exposed once you're through. And and I didn't expect that. You wouldn't think didn't expect that. You wouldn't think didn't expect that. You wouldn't think that once you cross a finish line, like that once you cross a finish line, like that once you cross a finish line, like that's when it hits you. You would that's when it hits you. You would that's when it hits you. You would expect, you know, to feel pretty worn expect, you know, to feel pretty worn expect, you know, to feel pretty worn out during the race. And then when it's out during the race. And then when it's out during the race. And then when it's over, just feel relieved that uh I made over, just feel relieved that uh I made over, just feel relieved that uh I made it. I did it. I accomplished, you know, it. I did it. I accomplished, you know, it. I did it. I accomplished, you know, the I persevered. But recognizing like the I persevered. But recognizing like the I persevered. But recognizing like sometimes the weight of a season doesn't sometimes the weight of a season doesn't sometimes the weight of a season doesn't really hit you until you're on the other really hit you until you're on the other really hit you until you're on the other side of it. And um

side of it. And um side of it. And um I I found that to be true, which helps I I found that to be true, which helps I I found that to be true, which helps me be more intentional now when I'm in me be more intentional now when I'm in me be more intentional now when I'm in the the middle of it. Um, I'll tell you the the middle of it. Um, I'll tell you the the middle of it. Um, I'll tell you one other thing that I I really one other thing that I I really one other thing that I I really learned that I I learned that I I learned that I I don't know if don't know if don't know if I don't know if very many people can I don't know if very many people can I don't know if very many people can relate to this. relate to this. relate to this. I suspect a lot of your listeners I suspect a lot of your listeners I suspect a lot of your listeners probably could, but probably could, but probably could, but I have a tendency I have a tendency I have a tendency to be positive like about everything. to be positive like about everything. to be positive like about everything. Which most of the time is a strength, Which most of the time is a strength, Which most of the time is a strength, but not always, right? Like it makes me but not always, right? Like it makes me but not always, right? Like it makes me not always an accurate perceiver of how not always an accurate perceiver of how not always an accurate perceiver of how I'm doing or how a conversation goes. I'm doing or how a conversation goes. I'm doing or how a conversation goes. Sometimes I get done with a hard Sometimes I get done with a hard Sometimes I get done with a hard conversation and if you ask me, I'd be conversation and if you ask me, I'd be conversation and if you ask me, I'd be like, "Oh, it went great. Went really like, "Oh, it went great. Went really like, "Oh, it went great. Went really well." well." well." But it didn't. And But it didn't. And But it didn't. And uh and so I have learned to, you know, uh and so I have learned to, you know, uh and so I have learned to, you know, kind of pay attention to my positivity. kind of pay attention to my positivity. kind of pay attention to my positivity. That that is most of the time that's a That that is most of the time that's a That that is most of the time that's a leadership strength. Um, it's leadership strength. Um, it's leadership strength. Um, it's often, you know, the kind of spirit that often, you know, the kind of spirit that often, you know, the kind of spirit that somebody wants to follow. But man, if somebody wants to follow. But man, if somebody wants to follow. But man, if you're not accurately perceiving you're not accurately perceiving you're not accurately perceiving where you're at, where your health is where you're at, where your health is where you're at, where your health is at, where your relationships are at, at, where your relationships are at, at, where your relationships are at, that's not healthy at all. And so my, that's not healthy at all. And so my, that's not healthy at all. And so my, you know, proclivity to positivity uh is you know, proclivity to positivity uh is you know, proclivity to positivity uh is something I'm I'm learning to question something I'm I'm learning to question something I'm I'm learning to question and not just assume. So when I hear and not just assume. So when I hear and not just assume. So when I hear myself saying, "Hey, that went great."

myself saying, "Hey, that went great." myself saying, "Hey, that went great." Stepping back and asking some other Stepping back and asking some other Stepping back and asking some other people, "How do you think that went?" people, "How do you think that went?" people, "How do you think that went?" And And And that's been new. I I don't A few years that's been new. I I don't A few years that's been new. I I don't A few years ago, I I I didn't recognize the need for ago, I I I didn't recognize the need for ago, I I I didn't recognize the need for that. Can you relate to that? The having that perspective? having that perspective? I I think I think I'm always doing I I think I think I'm always doing I I think I think I'm always doing better than I am. I think I can relate to that. I was I think I can relate to that. I was talking to a buddy. I don't know whether talking to a buddy. I don't know whether talking to a buddy. I don't know whether you know him yesterday, but he checked you know him yesterday, but he checked you know him yesterday, but he checked in with me maybe 6 months ago and then in with me maybe 6 months ago and then in with me maybe 6 months ago and then again yesterday. We just been through a again yesterday. We just been through a again yesterday. We just been through a natural disaster here in our natural disaster here in our natural disaster here in our part of the country and, you know, lost part of the country and, you know, lost part of the country and, you know, lost most of my backyard, cut down dozens and most of my backyard, cut down dozens and most of my backyard, cut down dozens and dozens of trees, without hydro, without dozens of trees, without hydro, without dozens of trees, without hydro, without internet, blah blah blah. He's like, internet, blah blah blah. He's like, internet, blah blah blah. He's like, "How you doing?" And I'm like, "Ooh, "How you doing?" And I'm like, "Ooh, "How you doing?" And I'm like, "Ooh, that's the second how you doing call I that's the second how you doing call I that's the second how you doing call I got from my friend in California in 6 got from my friend in California in 6 got from my friend in California in 6 months. months. months. And so I'm leaving tomorrow for a week And so I'm leaving tomorrow for a week And so I'm leaving tomorrow for a week away and I'm thinking away and I'm thinking away and I'm thinking maybe I need a longer break. Like I'm maybe I need a longer break. Like I'm maybe I need a longer break. Like I'm going to take a month off this summer.

going to take a month off this summer. going to take a month off this summer. But there's always that sense and I But there's always that sense and I But there's always that sense and I don't know I feel free to go, "Carey, don't know I feel free to go, "Carey, don't know I feel free to go, "Carey, that's a dumb question. Let's move on." that's a dumb question. Let's move on." that's a dumb question. Let's move on." But you know, back to that that But you know, back to that that But you know, back to that that sabbatical sabbatical sabbatical a couple of years ago. a couple of years ago. a couple of years ago. Did it feel like you were being benched? Did it feel like you were being benched? Did it feel like you were being benched? I know it was, you know, kind of I know it was, you know, kind of I know it was, you know, kind of voluntary. You took it. You weren't you voluntary. You took it. You weren't you voluntary. You took it. You weren't you weren't forced. weren't forced. weren't forced. Halfway through it did. Halfway through Halfway through it did. Halfway through Halfway through it did. Halfway through it did. You you know, initially, I think it did. You you know, initially, I think it did. You you know, initially, I think I was really glad for the the break and I was really glad for the the break and I was really glad for the the break and to catch my breath and be restored to catch my breath and be restored to catch my breath and be restored just physically, emotionally, being able just physically, emotionally, being able just physically, emotionally, being able to focus on, you know, some family to focus on, you know, some family to focus on, you know, some family things and things and things and but but but about halfway through, I but but but about halfway through, I but but but about halfway through, I felt the the weight of this isn't I felt the the weight of this isn't I felt the the weight of this isn't I didn't want it to be this long and I'm didn't want it to be this long and I'm didn't want it to be this long and I'm ready to get back and you know, and and ready to get back and you know, and and ready to get back and you know, and and maybe some of that struggle maybe some of that struggle maybe some of that struggle um you don't necessarily feel for the um you don't necessarily feel for the um you don't necessarily feel for the first month, but then first month, but then first month, but then in that second month in that second month in that second month some of where you found your identity some of where you found your identity some of where you found your identity that you didn't know you found your that you didn't know you found your that you didn't know you found your identity begins to surface and gets identity begins to surface and gets identity begins to surface and gets exposed that didn't really show up in exposed that didn't really show up in exposed that didn't really show up in the first month, but it does in the the first month, but it does in the the first month, but it does in the second. Uh so initially it didn't feel second. Uh so initially it didn't feel second. Uh so initially it didn't feel that way, but halfway through it uh it that way, but halfway through it uh it that way, but halfway through it uh it did feel a little that way.

did feel a little that way. did feel a little that way. Yeah, I know it's interesting, you know, Yeah, I know it's interesting, you know, Yeah, I know it's interesting, you know, because when we were reflecting on it because when we were reflecting on it because when we were reflecting on it for the first time and I've thought for the first time and I've thought for the first time and I've thought about our conversation a lot even, you about our conversation a lot even, you about our conversation a lot even, you know, doing hundreds and hundreds of know, doing hundreds and hundreds of know, doing hundreds and hundreds of episodes. Some conversations are really episodes. Some conversations are really episodes. Some conversations are really memorable. memorable. memorable. Uh I really loved that one that we had a Uh I really loved that one that we had a Uh I really loved that one that we had a few years ago. few years ago. few years ago. Uh I'm like, "Yeah, I don't think I ever Uh I'm like, "Yeah, I don't think I ever Uh I'm like, "Yeah, I don't think I ever want to be benched." And that's an want to be benched." And that's an want to be benched." And that's an issue. Right? That's an issue. issue. Right? That's an issue. issue. Right? That's an issue. someone say someone say someone say "Hey, you need you need a few months "Hey, you need you need a few months "Hey, you need you need a few months off." I'm going to be part of me is off." I'm going to be part of me is off." I'm going to be part of me is going to be, "Actually, no, I don't and going to be, "Actually, no, I don't and going to be, "Actually, no, I don't and you can leave right now." Um Right, you can leave right now." Um Right, you can leave right now." Um Right, yeah. Yeah, I know it's yeah. Yeah, I know it's yeah. Yeah, I know it's I really like that picture of being I really like that picture of being I really like that picture of being benched because benched because benched because you know, a good a good basketball you know, a good a good basketball you know, a good a good basketball player will recognize when they need player will recognize when they need player will recognize when they need that, but that comes with maturity. that, but that comes with maturity. that, but that comes with maturity. Meaning like you you never when you're Meaning like you you never when you're Meaning like you you never when you're young, you never want to come out of the young, you never want to come out of the young, you never want to come out of the game. Don't take me out of the game. game. Don't take me out of the game. game. Don't take me out of the game. You don't want to take me out of the You don't want to take me out of the You don't want to take me out of the game, coach, right? Right. You you you game, coach, right? Right. You you you game, coach, right? Right. You you you recognize, "Hey, the team's going to be recognize, "Hey, the team's going to be recognize, "Hey, the team's going to be better if I take a some time on the better if I take a some time on the better if I take a some time on the bench, right?" And so there's a sign of bench, right?" And so there's a sign of bench, right?" And so there's a sign of maturity, I think in a recognition that maturity, I think in a recognition that maturity, I think in a recognition that I can be on the bench, it's okay, I can be on the bench, it's okay, I can be on the bench, it's okay, but nobody nobody wants, you know, it's but nobody nobody wants, you know, it's but nobody nobody wants, you know, it's well, to carry that metaphor out, it's well, to carry that metaphor out, it's well, to carry that metaphor out, it's one thing to say to the coach, "I could one thing to say to the coach, "I could one thing to say to the coach, "I could use a break." It's another thing for the use a break." It's another thing for the use a break." It's another thing for the coach to say to you, "You could use a coach to say to you, "You could use a coach to say to you, "You could use a break." And break." And break." And right? Like those those are two right? Like those those are two right? Like those those are two different conversations. We were talking different conversations. We were talking different conversations. We were talking about our our counselor slash about our our counselor slash about our our counselor slash performance coaches before we hit performance coaches before we hit performance coaches before we hit record, right? Depending on who I'm record, right? Depending on who I'm record, right? Depending on who I'm talking to. Counselor or performance talking to. Counselor or performance talking to. Counselor or performance coach? Anyway, coach? Anyway, coach? Anyway, and and and and he's been encouraging me to hit the and he's been encouraging me to hit the and he's been encouraging me to hit the brake more often and not the gas pedal.

brake more often and not the gas pedal. brake more often and not the gas pedal. And there's something Dr. C, maybe And there's something Dr. C, maybe And there's something Dr. C, maybe you're listening, that I really resent you're listening, that I really resent you're listening, that I really resent resent about that. Yes, I really came resent about that. Yes, I really came resent about that. Yes, I really came out. I resent about it and I resist out. I resent about it and I resist out. I resent about it and I resist about it. And I maybe have to think about it. And I maybe have to think about it. And I maybe have to think about that. Are there are there warning about that. Are there are there warning about that. Are there are there warning signs now? Like think about your life as signs now? Like think about your life as signs now? Like think about your life as a series of dashboard lights. Do you a series of dashboard lights. Do you a series of dashboard lights. Do you have dashboard lights that you're aware have dashboard lights that you're aware have dashboard lights that you're aware of now, 2 years later, a couple years of now, 2 years later, a couple years of now, 2 years later, a couple years later, that that maybe weren't you later, that that maybe weren't you later, that that maybe weren't you weren't paying attention to before the weren't paying attention to before the weren't paying attention to before the break? break? break? Uh yeah, I I Uh yeah, I I Uh yeah, I I I would say I would say I would say a couple of things that might be a couple of things that might be a couple of things that might be new for me that have showed up on the new for me that have showed up on the new for me that have showed up on the dashboard I pay closer attention now dashboard I pay closer attention now dashboard I pay closer attention now to now than I used to uh would be what to now than I used to uh would be what to now than I used to uh would be what when I struggle with empowering some of when I struggle with empowering some of when I struggle with empowering some of the people around me. Um I recognize the people around me. Um I recognize the people around me. Um I recognize that now as more of a me that now as more of a me that now as more of a me thing than a them thing. And what when thing than a them thing. And what when thing than a them thing. And what when that becomes hard for me, it it it just that becomes hard for me, it it it just that becomes hard for me, it it it just it lets me know, man, I'm holding on to it lets me know, man, I'm holding on to it lets me know, man, I'm holding on to this in a way that's not going to be this in a way that's not going to be this in a way that's not going to be healthy. And so so now when I start to healthy. And so so now when I start to healthy. And so so now when I start to kind of to question some competencies or kind of to question some competencies or kind of to question some competencies or some performances of of staff, um it some performances of of staff, um it some performances of of staff, um it helps it helps me to see that that might helps it helps me to see that that might helps it helps me to see that that might be within me this I'm holding on to be within me this I'm holding on to be within me this I'm holding on to something that I I don't need to hold on something that I I don't need to hold on something that I I don't need to hold on to that tightly. And if I keep doing to that tightly. And if I keep doing to that tightly. And if I keep doing that with too many people, that's going that with too many people, that's going that with too many people, that's going to be it's going to wear me out. It's to be it's going to wear me out. It's to be it's going to wear me out. It's going to create problems. Um the the going to create problems. Um the the going to create problems. Um the the other one for me, I would say is how am other one for me, I would say is how am other one for me, I would say is how am I receiving feedback? Uh generally I receiving feedback? Uh generally I receiving feedback? Uh generally speaking, I'm not easily offended. For

speaking, I'm not easily offended. For speaking, I'm not easily offended. For the most part, I do fine with criticism the most part, I do fine with criticism the most part, I do fine with criticism and feedback, but uh not always. And and feedback, but uh not always. And and feedback, but uh not always. And when when that when I am feeling when when that when I am feeling when when that when I am feeling sensitive and when I'm feeling sensitive and when I'm feeling sensitive and when I'm feeling defensive, when I'm having a hard time defensive, when I'm having a hard time defensive, when I'm having a hard time receiving that from people, um that to receiving that from people, um that to receiving that from people, um that to me that's a a light on the dashboard me that's a a light on the dashboard me that's a a light on the dashboard that says, "Okay, you know, that you you that says, "Okay, you know, that you you that says, "Okay, you know, that you you need to to lean in." So. Mhm. Well, need to to lean in." So. Mhm. Well, need to to lean in." So. Mhm. Well, we're going from easy topic to easy we're going from easy topic to easy we're going from easy topic to easy topic. Uh topic. Uh topic. Uh your your latest focus your your latest focus your your latest focus uh you talk a lot about insecurity, uh you talk a lot about insecurity, uh you talk a lot about insecurity, Kyle, and it's something I think the two Kyle, and it's something I think the two Kyle, and it's something I think the two of us can relate to and I think a lot of of us can relate to and I think a lot of of us can relate to and I think a lot of leaders. Like, on the one hand, you have leaders. Like, on the one hand, you have leaders. Like, on the one hand, you have the narcissists and, you know, from what the narcissists and, you know, from what the narcissists and, you know, from what I know about narcissism, that can be I know about narcissism, that can be I know about narcissism, that can be rooted in insecurity. You You don't rooted in insecurity. You You don't rooted in insecurity. You You don't present as a narcissist. present as a narcissist. present as a narcissist. But, insecurity's been part of your But, insecurity's been part of your But, insecurity's been part of your journey. How How has it been part of journey. How How has it been part of journey. How How has it been part of your your your life and then your life as a leader, life and then your life as a leader, life and then your life as a leader, Kyle? Kyle? Kyle? It's an interesting conversation because It's an interesting conversation because It's an interesting conversation because I am insecure about my insecurity.

I am insecure about my insecurity. I am insecure about my insecurity. I don't I don't like I don't like being I don't I don't like I don't like being I don't I don't like I don't like being thought of as insecure and that's rooted thought of as insecure and that's rooted thought of as insecure and that's rooted in insecurity, right? Yeah. in insecurity, right? Yeah. in insecurity, right? Yeah. So, I I I would say I would say for a So, I I I would say I would say for a So, I I I would say I would say for a long time, I perceived the struggle of long time, I perceived the struggle of long time, I perceived the struggle of insecurity as someone who lacks insecurity as someone who lacks insecurity as someone who lacks confidence, someone that doesn't make confidence, someone that doesn't make confidence, someone that doesn't make eye contact, someone that, you know, eye contact, someone that, you know, eye contact, someone that, you know, won't speak up or step up when, you won't speak up or step up when, you won't speak up or step up when, you know, when needed. And so, because I know, when needed. And so, because I know, when needed. And so, because I associated insecurity that way, I didn't associated insecurity that way, I didn't associated insecurity that way, I didn't acknowledge or recognize that that was a acknowledge or recognize that that was a acknowledge or recognize that that was a struggle for me. But, for me, it wasn't struggle for me. But, for me, it wasn't struggle for me. But, for me, it wasn't a lack of a lack of a lack of confidence. It was a it it Let me put it confidence. It was a it it Let me put it confidence. It was a it it Let me put it this way. this way. this way. It It wasn't self-doubt. It was It It wasn't self-doubt. It was It It wasn't self-doubt. It was self-consciousness self-consciousness self-consciousness that uh that uh that uh that I was m- more My self-consciousness that I was m- more My self-consciousness that I was m- more My self-consciousness was rooted in insecurity. was rooted in insecurity. was rooted in insecurity. But, that to to me, that's different But, that to to me, that's different But, that to to me, that's different than lacking confidence. A lack Does than lacking confidence. A lack Does than lacking confidence. A lack Does Does that make sense? Am I I think so. Does that make sense? Am I I think so. Does that make sense? Am I I think so. Yeah, like you kind of knew, "Okay, I'm Yeah, like you kind of knew, "Okay, I'm Yeah, like you kind of knew, "Okay, I'm a decent leader. I'm a decent a decent leader. I'm a decent a decent leader. I'm a decent communicator. I can write."

communicator. I can write." communicator. I can write." Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. I knew those things and I felt confident I knew those things and I felt confident I knew those things and I felt confident in in in when called upon, but I was when called upon, but I was when called upon, but I was self-conscious about it meaning that I self-conscious about it meaning that I self-conscious about it meaning that I how that's being perceived and received how that's being perceived and received how that's being perceived and received by other people. by other people. by other people. Um you know, I I I did struggle with Um you know, I I I did struggle with Um you know, I I I did struggle with feelings of inadequacy at different feelings of inadequacy at different feelings of inadequacy at different times, but they would be rooted in times, but they would be rooted in times, but they would be rooted in in self-consciousness. Let me give you in self-consciousness. Let me give you in self-consciousness. Let me give you just a real just a real just a real uh quick example. I'm not asking you to uh quick example. I'm not asking you to uh quick example. I'm not asking you to edit this out. It's uh edit this out. It's uh edit this out. It's uh uh uh uh I I don't know. I've probably got six or I I don't know. I've probably got six or I I don't know. I've probably got six or seven podcasts I'm doing this week. Mhm. seven podcasts I'm doing this week. Mhm. seven podcasts I'm doing this week. Mhm. This is the only one I feel insecure This is the only one I feel insecure This is the only one I feel insecure about. And it's because I know that about. And it's because I know that about. And it's because I know that Well, I it has nothing to do with with Well, I it has nothing to do with with Well, I it has nothing to do with with our conversation or um but it has to do our conversation or um but it has to do our conversation or um but it has to do with I know your listeners are. I know with I know your listeners are. I know with I know your listeners are. I know they're peers of mine. I know they do they're peers of mine. I know they do they're peers of mine. I know they do what I do. I respect them as leaders. I what I do. I respect them as leaders. I what I do. I respect them as leaders. I know the kind of people you have on your know the kind of people you have on your know the kind of people you have on your on your podcast. And And so I'm more on your podcast. And And so I'm more on your podcast. And And so I'm more aware of how I'm being perceived in a aware of how I'm being perceived in a aware of how I'm being perceived in a conversation like this. You I think conversation like this. You I think conversation like this. You I think about that more than I would in in other about that more than I would in in other about that more than I would in in other podcasts, right? Which to me is is what podcasts, right? Which to me is is what podcasts, right? Which to me is is what I'm talking about here. It It is you I'm talking about here. It It is you I'm talking about here. It It is you know, this know, this know, this um um um uh insecurity that's rooted in uh insecurity that's rooted in uh insecurity that's rooted in self-consciousness around uh you know, self-consciousness around uh you know, self-consciousness around uh you know, what certain people how they're how they what certain people how they're how they what certain people how they're how they perceive you. Now, what what helped me perceive you. Now, what what helped me perceive you. Now, what what helped me about this so much is just seeing that about this so much is just seeing that about this so much is just seeing that there's this uh I mean there's this uh I mean there's this uh I mean Moses and David and you know, the the Moses and David and you know, the the Moses and David and you know, the the list of people who dealt with you know,

list of people who dealt with you know, list of people who dealt with you know, feelings of inadequacy are pretty long. feelings of inadequacy are pretty long. feelings of inadequacy are pretty long. And And uh And And uh And And uh recognizing that acknowledging it recognizing that acknowledging it recognizing that acknowledging it acknowledging insecurity acknowledging insecurity acknowledging insecurity actually actually actually earns respect. Like I don't have to be earns respect. Like I don't have to be earns respect. Like I don't have to be Like even just sharing the example I did Like even just sharing the example I did Like even just sharing the example I did about being on here. I know enough now about being on here. I know enough now about being on here. I know enough now to know that people who are listening to to know that people who are listening to to know that people who are listening to this this this they don't lose respect they don't lose respect they don't lose respect when they hear me say that, right? But when they hear me say that, right? But when they hear me say that, right? But for so many years, I would have been for so many years, I would have been for so many years, I would have been I would have been I would not have I would have been I would not have I would have been I would not have wanted to share that wanted to share that wanted to share that um um um because I would I didn't understand because I would I didn't understand because I would I didn't understand that. And now if I'm listening to your that. And now if I'm listening to your that. And now if I'm listening to your uh podcast and I hear someone talk about uh podcast and I hear someone talk about uh podcast and I hear someone talk about an area of struggle or something that an area of struggle or something that an area of struggle or something that they're insecure about, I know my they're insecure about, I know my they're insecure about, I know my respect for them, you know, goes up. And respect for them, you know, goes up. And respect for them, you know, goes up. And so, you know, biblically this is where so, you know, biblically this is where so, you know, biblically this is where Paul is talking about, you know, my Paul is talking about, you know, my Paul is talking about, you know, my uh uh uh you know, his strength is made perfect you know, his strength is made perfect you know, his strength is made perfect in my weakness. Therefore, I will in my weakness. Therefore, I will in my weakness. Therefore, I will delight in my weakness. And recognizing delight in my weakness. And recognizing delight in my weakness. And recognizing that, okay, when I can acknowledge these that, okay, when I can acknowledge these that, okay, when I can acknowledge these things, I'm not losing credibility. Um things, I'm not losing credibility. Um things, I'm not losing credibility. Um even though it can feel like that. And even though it can feel like that. And even though it can feel like that. And and and and if that makes sense.

if that makes sense. if that makes sense. a paradox, man. And I I can relate to a paradox, man. And I I can relate to a paradox, man. And I I can relate to that as well. And you know, the way I'm that as well. And you know, the way I'm that as well. And you know, the way I'm sitting, I'm like, "Hey, man, I'm in my sitting, I'm like, "Hey, man, I'm in my sitting, I'm like, "Hey, man, I'm in my basement. Like what can be basement. Like what can be basement. Like what can be intimidating?" intimidating?" intimidating?" But you're right. There's some really But you're right. There's some really But you're right. There's some really influential people who listen to this influential people who listen to this influential people who listen to this podcast and the guests we have on this podcast and the guests we have on this podcast and the guests we have on this podcast. But podcast. But podcast. But you know, it's that paradox, Kyle, that you know, it's that paradox, Kyle, that you know, it's that paradox, Kyle, that I have felt as well. It's like, "Oh, can I have felt as well. It's like, "Oh, can I have felt as well. It's like, "Oh, can I really share this? Can I really" And I really share this? Can I really" And I really share this? Can I really" And particularly, you know, if it's 20 years particularly, you know, if it's 20 years particularly, you know, if it's 20 years in the rearview mirror, go ahead and in the rearview mirror, go ahead and in the rearview mirror, go ahead and share it. But if it's like right now, share it. But if it's like right now, share it. But if it's like right now, yeah, a real nerve, yeah, a real nerve, yeah, a real nerve, it's kind of like, "Uh." But whenever it's kind of like, "Uh." But whenever it's kind of like, "Uh." But whenever some leader I know that I respect shares some leader I know that I respect shares some leader I know that I respect shares out of their weakness, my admiration and out of their weakness, my admiration and out of their weakness, my admiration and my sense of closeness my sense of closeness my sense of closeness That's right. That's right. That's right. gets better. Like our last conversation, gets better. Like our last conversation, gets better. Like our last conversation, which I promise I will stop referencing which I promise I will stop referencing which I promise I will stop referencing at some point in this conversation, at some point in this conversation, at some point in this conversation, was really unscripted and it was a was really unscripted and it was a was really unscripted and it was a surprise. It was sort of a throwaway surprise. It was sort of a throwaway surprise. It was sort of a throwaway question that became question that became question that became the the meat of the interview. And you the the meat of the interview. And you the the meat of the interview. And you were so vulnerable. were so vulnerable. were so vulnerable. And I mean And I mean And I mean I remember it so well and it resonated I remember it so well and it resonated I remember it so well and it resonated with so many leaders. But you're right, with so many leaders. But you're right, with so many leaders. But you're right, there's that tension. And I feel it there's that tension. And I feel it there's that tension. And I feel it where I feel it, just so, you know, where I feel it, just so, you know, where I feel it, just so, you know, you're not alone on this one, is when you're not alone on this one, is when you're not alone on this one, is when you get in you and I are in green rooms you get in you and I are in green rooms you get in you and I are in green rooms all the time. And I'm getting over it all the time. And I'm getting over it all the time. And I'm getting over it now, but for many, many years, if there now, but for many, many years, if there now, but for many, many years, if there was pastor of a very large church or was pastor of a very large church or was pastor of a very large church or somebody that I followed for years or somebody that I followed for years or somebody that I followed for years or I've read their books or I've read their books or I've read their books or you know, whatever, and they show up, I you know, whatever, and they show up, I you know, whatever, and they show up, I would be like both drawn to them, like I would be like both drawn to them, like I would be like both drawn to them, like I got to go and I got to go and shake his got to go and I got to go and shake his got to go and I got to go and shake his hand. I got to go I got to say hi, and hand. I got to go I got to say hi, and hand. I got to go I got to say hi, and also absolutely terrified at the same

also absolutely terrified at the same also absolutely terrified at the same time, time, time, oh, they're going to see that there's oh, they're going to see that there's oh, they're going to see that there's nothing here, you know? So, that kind of nothing here, you know? So, that kind of nothing here, you know? So, that kind of in insecurity I definitely feel, and in insecurity I definitely feel, and in insecurity I definitely feel, and it's you know, I had a few friends it's you know, I had a few friends it's you know, I had a few friends who have said to me, and this is it's who have said to me, and this is it's who have said to me, and this is it's such a fine line between like narcissism such a fine line between like narcissism such a fine line between like narcissism and and and and insecurity, but they're like, no, and insecurity, but they're like, no, and insecurity, but they're like, no, you belong at that table. You belong at you belong at that table. You belong at you belong at that table. You belong at that room. And I'm like, no, no, I don't that room. And I'm like, no, no, I don't that room. And I'm like, no, no, I don't I don't think I do, I don't think I do, I don't think I do, but I'm I'm gradually more comfortable but I'm I'm gradually more comfortable but I'm I'm gradually more comfortable with it. with it. with it. Yeah. Yeah, well, and you know, the Yeah. Yeah, well, and you know, the Yeah. Yeah, well, and you know, the beautiful thing about beautiful thing about beautiful thing about the gospel in this is the gospel in this is the gospel in this is the confidence doesn't come from having the confidence doesn't come from having the confidence doesn't come from having to convince myself to convince myself to convince myself that I belong at the table. It comes that I belong at the table. It comes that I belong at the table. It comes from recognizing from recognizing from recognizing God's strength and how he wants to use God's strength and how he wants to use God's strength and how he wants to use me is up to him. Well, here the example me is up to him. Well, here the example me is up to him. Well, here the example that comes to my mind is of um when God that comes to my mind is of um when God that comes to my mind is of um when God calls Moses, Moses says, I'm not a good calls Moses, Moses says, I'm not a good calls Moses, Moses says, I'm not a good speaker. I don't Moses says, I I don't speaker. I don't Moses says, I I don't speaker. I don't Moses says, I I don't belong at the table. And God doesn't belong at the table. And God doesn't belong at the table. And God doesn't say, well, yes, you are a good speaker, say, well, yes, you are a good speaker, say, well, yes, you are a good speaker, you know, you do belong there. He says, you know, you do belong there. He says, you know, you do belong there. He says, you know, I made your tongue. You you you know, I made your tongue. You you you know, I made your tongue. You you know, I In other words, I I'm the one know, I In other words, I I'm the one know, I In other words, I I'm the one who will give you what you need in those who will give you what you need in those who will give you what you need in those moments and for those oppor- put your moments and for those oppor- put your moments and for those oppor- put your confidence in in me, and you know, confidence in in me, and you know, confidence in in me, and you know, learning to do that is is is uh is the learning to do that is is is uh is the learning to do that is is is uh is the challenge.

challenge. challenge. How did you, you know, looking back on How did you, you know, looking back on How did you, you know, looking back on your life so far, when your life so far, when your life so far, when in the rearview mirror, in the rearview mirror, in the rearview mirror, when do you think you first felt when do you think you first felt when do you think you first felt insecure? Was it something you grew up insecure? Was it something you grew up insecure? Was it something you grew up with? Was there an incident in with? Was there an incident in with? Was there an incident in elementary or high school? elementary or high school? elementary or high school? Just part of your DNA? Like, when did Just part of your DNA? Like, when did Just part of your DNA? Like, when did that first surface that first surface that first surface in your life? in your life? in your life? Well, Well, Well, well, I I don't put this on I don't put well, I I don't put this on I don't put well, I I don't put this on I don't put this on my parents because I don't I this on my parents because I don't I this on my parents because I don't I mean I think it's the way I interpreted mean I think it's the way I interpreted mean I think it's the way I interpreted it, but you know, there was always an it, but you know, there was always an it, but you know, there was always an awareness of awareness of awareness of um um um you know, how are you being perceived, you know, how are you being perceived, you know, how are you being perceived, what did people think? And I I honestly what did people think? And I I honestly what did people think? And I I honestly not in like an unhealthy way or not in a not in like an unhealthy way or not in a not in like an unhealthy way or not in a hypocritical pharisaical way, but just hypocritical pharisaical way, but just hypocritical pharisaical way, but just in a way in a way in a way that, you know, growing up, I put a lot that, you know, growing up, I put a lot that, you know, growing up, I put a lot of of of weight in in that. And and then ministry weight in in that. And and then ministry weight in in that. And and then ministry has a way of creating more of that, has a way of creating more of that, has a way of creating more of that, right? Like right? Like right? Like That was one of my questions. So, did That was one of my questions. So, did That was one of my questions. So, did ministry make it worse? It wasn't really ministry make it worse? It wasn't really ministry make it worse? It wasn't really a question. Of course ministry made it a question. Of course ministry made it a question. Of course ministry made it worse.

worse. worse. Yeah, you know, I it's it's it it it Yeah, you know, I it's it's it it it Yeah, you know, I it's it's it it it certainly does, I think, surface that, certainly does, I think, surface that, certainly does, I think, surface that, right? You've got public scrutiny. Um so right? You've got public scrutiny. Um so right? You've got public scrutiny. Um so any any It's not just ministry, any any any It's not just ministry, any any any It's not just ministry, any leadership role that is in the spotlight leadership role that is in the spotlight leadership role that is in the spotlight is going to bring more scrutiny. It's is going to bring more scrutiny. It's is going to bring more scrutiny. It's It's just going to bring more awareness It's just going to bring more awareness It's just going to bring more awareness that other people, you know, are seeing that other people, you know, are seeing that other people, you know, are seeing or talking or whatever it is. So, I or talking or whatever it is. So, I or talking or whatever it is. So, I think ministry brings that to And And by think ministry brings that to And And by think ministry brings that to And And by the way, you can be at a church of 200 the way, you can be at a church of 200 the way, you can be at a church of 200 people and that's still very real. people and that's still very real. people and that's still very real. Um Um Um And then I think ministry also And then I think ministry also And then I think ministry also intensifies it because you've got intensifies it because you've got intensifies it because you've got sometimes these unclear expectations or sometimes these unclear expectations or sometimes these unclear expectations or these unclear metrics these unclear metrics these unclear metrics where you don't know if you're you where you don't know if you're you where you don't know if you're you you don't know if you're ever {quote} you don't know if you're ever {quote} you don't know if you're ever {quote} successful, right? Like it it successful, right? Like it it successful, right? Like it it you you It can be difficult to measure you you It can be difficult to measure you you It can be difficult to measure success in ministry. And And by the way, success in ministry. And And by the way, success in ministry. And And by the way, if you get too wrapped up in the metrics if you get too wrapped up in the metrics if you get too wrapped up in the metrics as a way to not feel this way, then as a way to not feel this way, then as a way to not feel this way, then you're really going to feel that way. Or you're really going to feel that way. Or you're really going to feel that way. Or Does that make sense? Like if you're Does that make sense? Like if you're Does that make sense? Like if you're looking at all these attendance numbers looking at all these attendance numbers looking at all these attendance numbers or or or uh you know, uh you know, uh you know, giving and if you look at those as a way giving and if you look at those as a way giving and if you look at those as a way to not feel insecure, like well, we hit to not feel insecure, like well, we hit to not feel insecure, like well, we hit this and hit this, the by putting your this and hit this, the by putting your this and hit this, the by putting your confidence in those metrics, you're confidence in those metrics, you're confidence in those metrics, you're going to uh especially feel insecure. Uh going to uh especially feel insecure. Uh going to uh especially feel insecure. Uh which I'm not sure is true in in every which I'm not sure is true in in every which I'm not sure is true in in every organization, right? I think a lot of organization, right? I think a lot of organization, right? I think a lot of times those metrics can times those metrics can times those metrics can I mean I don't know, but in ministry, I mean I don't know, but in ministry, I mean I don't know, but in ministry, certainly, I think the unclear metrics

certainly, I think the unclear metrics certainly, I think the unclear metrics you cuz I mean you do lead one of the you cuz I mean you do lead one of the you cuz I mean you do lead one of the largest churches in the nation. You've largest churches in the nation. You've largest churches in the nation. You've been very successful been very successful been very successful at what you do. What makes you say when at what you do. What makes you say when at what you do. What makes you say when you measure that way it leaves you you measure that way it leaves you you measure that way it leaves you unhap- like unfulfilled? unhap- like unfulfilled? unhap- like unfulfilled? Uh well, I Uh well, I Uh well, I I was having a conversation. This is I was having a conversation. This is I was having a conversation. This is when I was an intern, so it's going back when I was an intern, so it's going back when I was an intern, so it's going back a while, but I was having a conversation a while, but I was having a conversation a while, but I was having a conversation with the the guy who um was essentially with the the guy who um was essentially with the the guy who um was essentially the founding pastor of this church. His the founding pastor of this church. His the founding pastor of this church. His name's Bob Russell. And uh name's Bob Russell. And uh name's Bob Russell. And uh at the time the church was maybe running at the time the church was maybe running at the time the church was maybe running around 12,000. And he had a conversation around 12,000. And he had a conversation around 12,000. And he had a conversation with me where he said, you know, I with me where he said, you know, I with me where he said, you know, I thought when we hit 10,000 thought when we hit 10,000 thought when we hit 10,000 uh as a church, then then that would I'd uh as a church, then then that would I'd uh as a church, then then that would I'd be like, oh, well, we made it. We made be like, oh, well, we made it. We made be like, oh, well, we made it. We made it. it. it. And the uh but then he traced that back. And the uh but then he traced that back. And the uh but then he traced that back. He said, but then I thought that when I He said, but then I thought that when I He said, but then I thought that when I we were going to get 5,000, then I we were going to get 5,000, then I we were going to get 5,000, then I thought that when we were close to thought that when we were close to thought that when we were close to 1,000. He kind of reverse engineered the 1,000. He kind of reverse engineered the 1,000. He kind of reverse engineered the fact that that doesn't go away if that's fact that that doesn't go away if that's fact that that doesn't go away if that's what you're what you're what you're looking at. If that's where you're looking at. If that's where you're looking at. If that's where you're trying to find a sense of security, trying to find a sense of security, trying to find a sense of security, well, we reached that number.

well, we reached that number. well, we reached that number. And I boy, I remember that really well And I boy, I remember that really well And I boy, I remember that really well uh that conversation. And just uh that conversation. And just uh that conversation. And just recognizing that if you're finding recognizing that if you're finding recognizing that if you're finding security in that, man, it's a moving security in that, man, it's a moving security in that, man, it's a moving target. And Mhm. uh target. And Mhm. uh target. And Mhm. uh I I think that's probably true in a lot I I think that's probably true in a lot I I think that's probably true in a lot of areas. Like if from a net worth of areas. Like if from a net worth of areas. Like if from a net worth standpoint, you might think, well, if I standpoint, you might think, well, if I standpoint, you might think, well, if I reach this place, I'm going to feel reach this place, I'm going to feel reach this place, I'm going to feel secure. And you hit that place and it's secure. And you hit that place and it's secure. And you hit that place and it's like, well, then okay, now if it's this like, well, then okay, now if it's this like, well, then okay, now if it's this place or place or place or So, the line moved once. So, the line moved once. So, the line moved once. the line moves. And so, if you put your the line moves. And so, if you put your the line moves. And so, if you put your security in metrics that are always security in metrics that are always security in metrics that are always moving, then you always feel insecure. moving, then you always feel insecure. moving, then you always feel insecure. And and there's a lot of moving metrics And and there's a lot of moving metrics And and there's a lot of moving metrics within a church. And even if they're within a church. And even if they're within a church. And even if they're healthy, going up into the right, healthy, going up into the right, healthy, going up into the right, Uh that that's that's still moving and Uh that that's that's still moving and Uh that that's that's still moving and um and you know, wherever you're at now um and you know, wherever you're at now um and you know, wherever you're at now pales into comparison of what you where pales into comparison of what you where pales into comparison of what you where you might be a year from now. Uh so, you might be a year from now. Uh so, you might be a year from now. Uh so, yeah, I think that I think those moving yeah, I think that I think those moving yeah, I think that I think those moving metrics and and by the way, you know, metrics and and by the way, you know, metrics and and by the way, you know, now we we measure everything and I and now we we measure everything and I and now we we measure everything and I and I'm for that. Like I think it's super I'm for that. Like I think it's super I'm for that. Like I think it's super helpful and informative. I'm I'm for helpful and informative. I'm I'm for helpful and informative. I'm I'm for measuring everything, but there are that measuring everything, but there are that measuring everything, but there are that many more opportunities to find your many more opportunities to find your many more opportunities to find your confidence in in different things or or confidence in in different things or or confidence in in different things or or lack thereof, you know, as you as you lack thereof, you know, as you as you lack thereof, you know, as you as you measure so many different uh things measure so many different uh things measure so many different uh things within the organization.

within the organization. within the organization. You know, what's so funny, you know, You know, what's so funny, you know, You know, what's so funny, you know, when I was a kid watching baseball, it when I was a kid watching baseball, it when I was a kid watching baseball, it was like you kind of knew their batting was like you kind of knew their batting was like you kind of knew their batting average and maybe number of home runs, average and maybe number of home runs, average and maybe number of home runs, RBIs, that kind of thing. Now it's like, RBIs, that kind of thing. Now it's like, RBIs, that kind of thing. Now it's like, you know, when he's third at bat and you know, when he's third at bat and you know, when he's third at bat and wearing blue socks and uh you know, the wearing blue socks and uh you know, the wearing blue socks and uh you know, the relative humidity is at 98% he tends to relative humidity is at 98% he tends to relative humidity is at 98% he tends to hit X number of home runs. It's like, hit X number of home runs. It's like, hit X number of home runs. It's like, what? That'll make you not even care. what? That'll make you not even care. what? That'll make you not even care. Yeah, they got a metric for everything. Yeah, they got a metric for everything. Yeah, they got a metric for everything. Yeah, and he struck out. Okay. Yeah. So, Yeah, and he struck out. Okay. Yeah. So, Yeah, and he struck out. Okay. Yeah. So, ministry intensified it. What are and ministry intensified it. What are and ministry intensified it. What are and you've been very vulnerable in this new you've been very vulnerable in this new you've been very vulnerable in this new book and we'll tell people about it at book and we'll tell people about it at book and we'll tell people about it at the end, but the end, but the end, but um what are some parts of being Kyle um what are some parts of being Kyle um what are some parts of being Kyle Idleman that people do not see? I would say they don't see the um I would say they don't see the um oh, what's a good way to say this? They oh, what's a good way to say this? They oh, what's a good way to say this? They don't see the tired version of me very don't see the tired version of me very don't see the tired version of me very often. often. often. Uh uh Uh uh Uh uh Uh Uh Uh they I could even be more specific they I could even be more specific they I could even be more specific there. They don't see a tired husband there. They don't see a tired husband there. They don't see a tired husband and father. Mhm. Assume that because I and father. Mhm. Assume that because I and father. Mhm. Assume that because I am a engaged leader that is you know, am a engaged leader that is you know, am a engaged leader that is you know, that that I'm that way all the time and that that I'm that way all the time and that that I'm that way all the time and uh and that's not all the time true. I uh and that's not all the time true. I uh and that's not all the time true. I you know, I I sometimes feel like I'm I you know, I I sometimes feel like I'm I you know, I I sometimes feel like I'm I stay very engaged throughout the day and stay very engaged throughout the day and stay very engaged throughout the day and then I go home and then, you know, lay then I go home and then, you know, lay then I go home and then, you know, lay on the couch and scroll on my phone, on the couch and scroll on my phone, on the couch and scroll on my phone, right? And and so I I think sometimes right? And and so I I think sometimes right? And and so I I think sometimes people don't see that.

people don't see that. people don't see that. Um Um Um they don't see they don't see they don't see um um um the morning the morning the morning uh the morning doubt uh the morning doubt uh the morning doubt uh is maybe the best way to say it uh is maybe the best way to say it uh is maybe the best way to say it where, you know, you wake up kind of where, you know, you wake up kind of where, you know, you wake up kind of questioning um am I the right person for questioning um am I the right person for questioning um am I the right person for this? Um kind of this? Um kind of this? Um kind of in seasons it can feel like a daily in seasons it can feel like a daily in seasons it can feel like a daily process where you kind of process where you kind of process where you kind of wrestle with that at the beginning of wrestle with that at the beginning of wrestle with that at the beginning of the day where you the day where you the day where you where you have to, you know, take those where you have to, you know, take those where you have to, you know, take those thoughts captive because they're the thoughts captive because they're the thoughts captive because they're the kind of they meet you there in the kind of they meet you there in the kind of they meet you there in the morning. Mhm. Um but you don't want to morning. Mhm. Um but you don't want to morning. Mhm. Um but you don't want to carry that with you as a leader. You carry that with you as a leader. You carry that with you as a leader. You like what do you don't want to be that like what do you don't want to be that like what do you don't want to be that guy when you walk in. guy when you walk in. guy when you walk in. Um Um Um you know, so I those you know, so I those you know, so I those that comes to my mind is just the that comes to my mind is just the that comes to my mind is just the makes you think even now that you might makes you think even now that you might makes you think even now that you might not be the right person? You know, I'm around such You know, I'm around such competent leaders and I see skill sets competent leaders and I see skill sets competent leaders and I see skill sets that I don't think I have. Like I'll that I don't think I have. Like I'll that I don't think I have. Like I'll give you an example of this is give you an example of this is give you an example of this is I trust my gut a lot of times on I trust my gut a lot of times on I trust my gut a lot of times on decisions and, you know, I've been in decisions and, you know, I've been in decisions and, you know, I've been in leadership roles for a long time. I leadership roles for a long time. I leadership roles for a long time. I think I can often know the next right think I can often know the next right think I can often know the next right step or have a sense of what's around step or have a sense of what's around step or have a sense of what's around the corner.

the corner. the corner. But I'm not I'm not super strategic and But I'm not I'm not super strategic and But I'm not I'm not super strategic and I I get to spend some time with people I I get to spend some time with people I I get to spend some time with people who are really strategic and I'm like, who are really strategic and I'm like, who are really strategic and I'm like, oh man, that's what we need as an oh man, that's what we need as an oh man, that's what we need as an organization right now. I don't know organization right now. I don't know organization right now. I don't know that I have that gear. that I have that gear. that I have that gear. And uh And uh And uh uh so I I think there's that well, I uh so I I think there's that well, I uh so I I think there's that well, I mean, that's comparison mean, that's comparison mean, that's comparison which which which I don't know. I mean, I I don't know. I mean, I I don't know. I mean, I I don't necessarily do that with a I don't necessarily do that with a I don't necessarily do that with a jealous spirit, but just like a a an jealous spirit, but just like a a an jealous spirit, but just like a a an awareness of I awareness of I awareness of I you know, I'm not sure that I have that you know, I'm not sure that I have that you know, I'm not sure that I have that that gift that is required and um that gift that is required and um that gift that is required and um and and understanding what that means and and understanding what that means and and understanding what that means for us as a church, you you know, for us as a church, you you know, for us as a church, you you know, learning to depend on other people and learning to depend on other people and learning to depend on other people and ask for help and, you know, the ask for help and, you know, the ask for help and, you know, the did you um did you um did you um did you ever did you ever did you ever read the book um read the book um read the book um What's it called? Rocket Fuel? Am I What's it called? Rocket Fuel? Am I What's it called? Rocket Fuel? Am I getting that right? getting that right? getting that right? Uh I think I have. No. Uh I think I have. No. Uh I think I have. No. I may be missing the name. Well, it just I may be missing the name. Well, it just I may be missing the name. Well, it just talks about how you finding your right talks about how you finding your right talks about how you finding your right balance, the person that you uh get balance, the person that you uh get balance, the person that you uh get bring strengths that you don't have, but bring strengths that you don't have, but bring strengths that you don't have, but in order to find that person, you have in order to find that person, you have in order to find that person, you have to really know what those weaknesses are to really know what those weaknesses are to really know what those weaknesses are for you, which is a hard journey to go for you, which is a hard journey to go for you, which is a hard journey to go on.

on. on. I I get the idea. I haven't read the I I get the idea. I haven't read the I I get the idea. I haven't read the book. book. book. Yeah. No. Yeah. No. Yeah. No. Yeah. So, um so, yeah. I I think I think Yeah. So, um so, yeah. I I think I think Yeah. So, um so, yeah. I I think I think the public version of me that people the public version of me that people the public version of me that people don't necessarily see is probably the don't necessarily see is probably the don't necessarily see is probably the the tired or the uh you know, the the the tired or the uh you know, the the the tired or the uh you know, the the the doubting. Um I'm not sure if I've the doubting. Um I'm not sure if I've the doubting. Um I'm not sure if I've got what I need for this. Um yeah. got what I need for this. Um yeah. got what I need for this. Um yeah. So, I'm I'm really grateful that you So, I'm I'm really grateful that you So, I'm I'm really grateful that you spent some time on your project to spent some time on your project to spent some time on your project to tackle the thought life, thought life of tackle the thought life, thought life of tackle the thought life, thought life of a Christian, thought life of a leader. a Christian, thought life of a leader. a Christian, thought life of a leader. If we were to meet you on a Sunday If we were to meet you on a Sunday If we were to meet you on a Sunday morning morning morning backstage before you preach to tens of backstage before you preach to tens of backstage before you preach to tens of thousands of people, thousands of people, thousands of people, what's going through your mind? what's going through your mind? what's going through your mind? I I'm glad you asked this question cuz I I'm glad you asked this question cuz I I'm glad you asked this question cuz I'd like to address the sometimes online I'd like to address the sometimes online I'd like to address the sometimes online hate for green rooms. I I frankly hate for green rooms. I I frankly hate for green rooms. I I frankly I frankly resent that if you're a good I frankly resent that if you're a good I frankly resent that if you're a good pastor, you'll never be in the green pastor, you'll never be in the green pastor, you'll never be in the green room, you know, that backstage room. And room, you know, that backstage room. And room, you know, that backstage room. And listen, I I I understand the heart of listen, I I I understand the heart of listen, I I I understand the heart of that. Like I think accessibility is one that. Like I think accessibility is one that. Like I think accessibility is one of the most important gauges for, you of the most important gauges for, you of the most important gauges for, you know, your heart as a ministry leader.

know, your heart as a ministry leader. know, your heart as a ministry leader. Um Um Um I think being accessible is super I think being accessible is super I think being accessible is super important, but I also would recognize important, but I also would recognize important, but I also would recognize that the green room is not a place that the green room is not a place that the green room is not a place uh if you're healthy in what you're uh if you're healthy in what you're uh if you're healthy in what you're doing on a Sunday morning, it's not a doing on a Sunday morning, it's not a doing on a Sunday morning, it's not a place to escape or to be away from place to escape or to be away from place to escape or to be away from people. It is a place to people. It is a place to people. It is a place to get your head right, your heart right, get your head right, your heart right, get your head right, your heart right, to get on your knees and ask God for to get on your knees and ask God for to get on your knees and ask God for help. It is is a place to find your help. It is is a place to find your help. It is is a place to find your confidence in him. And so, I resented it confidence in him. And so, I resented it confidence in him. And so, I resented it a little bit. Like I after I'm done a little bit. Like I after I'm done a little bit. Like I after I'm done preaching, I try to be uh preaching, I try to be uh preaching, I try to be uh but before I preach, I I it really helps but before I preach, I I it really helps but before I preach, I I it really helps me to have some quiet time with God me to have some quiet time with God me to have some quiet time with God where I am where I am where I am taking my thoughts captive and I'm taking my thoughts captive and I'm taking my thoughts captive and I'm thinking through um you know, what's my thinking through um you know, what's my thinking through um you know, what's my spirit here, what's my heart here. I'm spirit here, what's my heart here. I'm spirit here, what's my heart here. I'm not just walking out there because one not just walking out there because one not just walking out there because one of the things I know is in those of the things I know is in those of the things I know is in those moments, you know, leading up to moments, you know, leading up to moments, you know, leading up to stepping out on on stage uh there if I stepping out on on stage uh there if I stepping out on on stage uh there if I don't have some intentionality ahead of don't have some intentionality ahead of don't have some intentionality ahead of time, it can catch me off guard. Like, I time, it can catch me off guard. Like, I time, it can catch me off guard. Like, I don't I I I know you don't I I I know you don't I I I know you Anyone who does much speaking up front Anyone who does much speaking up front Anyone who does much speaking up front knows that feeling where you you you knows that feeling where you you you knows that feeling where you you you think you're confident and then you get think you're confident and then you get think you're confident and then you get up there and you suddenly have this um up there and you suddenly have this um up there and you suddenly have this um Oh, I I should have prepared more for Oh, I I should have prepared more for Oh, I I should have prepared more for this message.

this message. this message. Yeah, yeah, I'm not ready. Yeah, yeah, I'm not ready. Yeah, yeah, I'm not ready. I'm not ready. I'm going to blow this I'm not ready. I'm going to blow this I'm not ready. I'm going to blow this opportunity. And uh you know, I know I opportunity. And uh you know, I know I opportunity. And uh you know, I know I know I'm going to be vulnerable to that, know I'm going to be vulnerable to that, know I'm going to be vulnerable to that, which means that I need to spend some which means that I need to spend some which means that I need to spend some time before going out making sure that time before going out making sure that time before going out making sure that you know, I'm I am you know, I'm I am you know, I'm I am preparing my mind to take those thoughts preparing my mind to take those thoughts preparing my mind to take those thoughts captive. So, when they come, I can captive. So, when they come, I can captive. So, when they come, I can wrestle them to the ground. I've wrestle them to the ground. I've wrestle them to the ground. I've already, you know, been praying a already, you know, been praying a already, you know, been praying a prayer. Uh one of the prayers I I don't prayer. Uh one of the prayers I I don't prayer. Uh one of the prayers I I don't know where I heard this, but the the know where I heard this, but the the know where I heard this, but the the prayer is, you know, God, I'm the prayer is, you know, God, I'm the prayer is, you know, God, I'm the vessel, not the source. I'm the vessel, vessel, not the source. I'm the vessel, vessel, not the source. I'm the vessel, not the source. And just getting my not the source. And just getting my not the source. And just getting my heart in that right gear, having my mind heart in that right gear, having my mind heart in that right gear, having my mind like that takes so much pressure off of like that takes so much pressure off of like that takes so much pressure off of me when I really believe that. Uh on our me when I really believe that. Uh on our me when I really believe that. Uh on our wall backstage, we have the a lyric from wall backstage, we have the a lyric from wall backstage, we have the a lyric from one of our worship songs of, you know, one of our worship songs of, you know, one of our worship songs of, you know, we bring the offering, but you bring the we bring the offering, but you bring the we bring the offering, but you bring the flame. Like Okay, God, I'm I am bringing flame. Like Okay, God, I'm I am bringing flame. Like Okay, God, I'm I am bringing the offering, but whatever happens with the offering, but whatever happens with the offering, but whatever happens with this is by your power. Uh so, finding, this is by your power. Uh so, finding, this is by your power. Uh so, finding, you know, finding that mindset uh you know, finding that mindset uh you know, finding that mindset uh and being intentional to to do that and being intentional to to do that and being intentional to to do that before stepping out makes a you know, before stepping out makes a you know, before stepping out makes a you know, big difference. Do you have a routine big difference. Do you have a routine big difference. Do you have a routine before you get out of kind of your before you get out of kind of your before you get out of kind of your you know, I take I didn't know where you you know, I take I didn't know where you you know, I take I didn't know where you were going with the uh I got a take on were going with the uh I got a take on were going with the uh I got a take on this thing about green rooms. Um I have this thing about green rooms. Um I have this thing about green rooms. Um I have a very similar MO. I I love being out in a very similar MO. I I love being out in a very similar MO. I I love being out in the lobby, but not before I speak. Now, the lobby, but not before I speak. Now, the lobby, but not before I speak. Now, if I'm at a conference and I've given if I'm at a conference and I've given if I'm at a conference and I've given the keynote because I've written a book the keynote because I've written a book the keynote because I've written a book on it, that's a different thing. But on it, that's a different thing. But on it, that's a different thing. But you're getting up there green, never you're getting up there green, never you're getting up there green, never delivered this message, never delivered delivered this message, never delivered delivered this message, never delivered this word before, this word before, this word before, I would hide my office and just get

I would hide my office and just get I would hide my office and just get ready and get my heart and my head ready and get my heart and my head ready and get my heart and my head video games in there. Well, yeah, you video games in there. Well, yeah, you video games in there. Well, yeah, you know, you could. Maybe maybe that would know, you could. Maybe maybe that would know, you could. Maybe maybe that would be a better option for the church some be a better option for the church some be a better option for the church some Sundays than hearing me. But no, I would Sundays than hearing me. But no, I would Sundays than hearing me. But no, I would do that because and then I would sneak do that because and then I would sneak do that because and then I would sneak in like right after the first worship in like right after the first worship in like right after the first worship song had started Mhm. and and go stand song had started Mhm. and and go stand song had started Mhm. and and go stand at the front and then honestly, just at the front and then honestly, just at the front and then honestly, just transparently, half engage in worship. I transparently, half engage in worship. I transparently, half engage in worship. I know I shouldn't do that, but like know I shouldn't do that, but like know I shouldn't do that, but like I'm just getting my head in the game, I'm just getting my head in the game, I'm just getting my head in the game, head in the game, head in the game, head head in the game, head in the game, head head in the game, head in the game, head in the game. And I prepared, you know, in the game. And I prepared, you know, in the game. And I prepared, you know, weeks in advance and the night before weeks in advance and the night before weeks in advance and the night before and the morning of I'm up at 4:45 if I'm and the morning of I'm up at 4:45 if I'm and the morning of I'm up at 4:45 if I'm preaching yeah. preaching yeah. preaching yeah. Yeah. Um in time for a 9:00 a.m. Yeah. Um in time for a 9:00 a.m. Yeah. Um in time for a 9:00 a.m. service. So, I mean, it's not like I service. So, I mean, it's not like I service. So, I mean, it's not like I just woke up and got out of bed. just woke up and got out of bed. just woke up and got out of bed. But yeah, there's something about that But yeah, there's something about that But yeah, there's something about that that is very fearsome and a nervousness that is very fearsome and a nervousness that is very fearsome and a nervousness before I get up. Not like, oh, I'm before I get up. Not like, oh, I'm before I get up. Not like, oh, I'm speaking in public, but nervousness as speaking in public, but nervousness as speaking in public, but nervousness as of this isn't my word like Yeah, yeah. of this isn't my word like Yeah, yeah. of this isn't my word like Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I feel that nervousness and Well, yeah, I feel that nervousness and Well, yeah, I feel that nervousness and then there's a lot at stake, you know, then there's a lot at stake, you know, then there's a lot at stake, you know, that's that's that's There's a lot at stake and it's There's a lot at stake and it's There's a lot at stake and it's somebody's first Sunday and somebody's somebody's first Sunday and somebody's somebody's first Sunday and somebody's last Sunday, you know, the whole deal.

last Sunday, you know, the whole deal. last Sunday, you know, the whole deal. But talk about that because, you know, But talk about that because, you know, But talk about that because, you know, you do lead a very, very large church. you do lead a very, very large church. you do lead a very, very large church. You like to be in the lobby after the You like to be in the lobby after the You like to be in the lobby after the service. I was with Ashley Wooldridge, service. I was with Ashley Wooldridge, service. I was with Ashley Wooldridge, our mutual friend, a couple weeks ago. our mutual friend, a couple weeks ago. our mutual friend, a couple weeks ago. And you know, one of the largest And you know, one of the largest And you know, one of the largest churches in the country, top three, churches in the country, top three, churches in the country, top three, maybe second largest. Yeah. And he's out maybe second largest. Yeah. And he's out maybe second largest. Yeah. And he's out there after the service, you know, there after the service, you know, there after the service, you know, meeting people, greeting people, very meeting people, greeting people, very meeting people, greeting people, very accessible. Um no entourage, you know, accessible. Um no entourage, you know, accessible. Um no entourage, you know, that kind of thing. And you have a very that kind of thing. And you have a very that kind of thing. And you have a very similar vibe. Why do you like to be out similar vibe. Why do you like to be out similar vibe. Why do you like to be out with people after the service? You know, with people after the service? You know, with people after the service? You know, I I will have serve I will have times I I will have serve I will have times I I will have serve I will have times where I'll just stand out in the lobby where I'll just stand out in the lobby where I'll just stand out in the lobby and shake hands and say hi to people. Uh and shake hands and say hi to people. Uh and shake hands and say hi to people. Uh but one of the things I like to do is I but one of the things I like to do is I but one of the things I like to do is I like to go to our room where people come like to go to our room where people come like to go to our room where people come for prayer and they come for decisions for prayer and they come for decisions for prayer and they come for decisions and then I I like to be able to sit down and then I I like to be able to sit down and then I I like to be able to sit down one-on-one with them at a table one-on-one with them at a table one-on-one with them at a table and pray for them, talk to them because and pray for them, talk to them because and pray for them, talk to them because sometimes when you're out in the lobby, sometimes when you're out in the lobby, sometimes when you're out in the lobby, you're you're you're getting you're you're you're getting you're you're you're getting connected, you're talking to the same connected, you're talking to the same connected, you're talking to the same people each time, right? And people each time, right? And people each time, right? And and the church people all know where to and the church people all know where to and the church people all know where to find you. find you. find you. Yeah, yeah. You're like, "Didn't we just Yeah, yeah. You're like, "Didn't we just Yeah, yeah. You're like, "Didn't we just have the same conversation last have the same conversation last have the same conversation last weekend?" And that's fine, but but when weekend?" And that's fine, but but when weekend?" And that's fine, but but when you're in the you're in the you're in the what we call our decision area or you what we call our decision area or you what we call our decision area or you know, when you're in an area where know, when you're in an area where know, when you're in an area where people are at a spiritual intersection people are at a spiritual intersection people are at a spiritual intersection and you can sit down with them at a time and you can sit down with them at a time and you can sit down with them at a time of need and you pray for them and or you of need and you pray for them and or you of need and you pray for them and or you talk to them about a decision that talk to them about a decision that talk to them about a decision that they're making.

they're making. they're making. You know, I to me You know, I to me You know, I to me I I've been it's that one at a time I I've been it's that one at a time I I've been it's that one at a time energy that I really need. Like that energy that I really need. Like that energy that I really need. Like that centers me as a as a pastor, that helps centers me as a as a pastor, that helps centers me as a as a pastor, that helps me with my message. You know, me with my message. You know, me with my message. You know, when I sit down on Thursday and I talk when I sit down on Thursday and I talk when I sit down on Thursday and I talk to someone whose life was impacted in a to someone whose life was impacted in a to someone whose life was impacted in a certain way that maybe I didn't even certain way that maybe I didn't even certain way that maybe I didn't even mean to be a part of, but the Holy mean to be a part of, but the Holy mean to be a part of, but the Holy Spirit connected. I'll schedule Spirit connected. I'll schedule Spirit connected. I'll schedule sometimes between services back in that sometimes between services back in that sometimes between services back in that decision room, you know, 15-minute decision room, you know, 15-minute decision room, you know, 15-minute prayer appointments where I'll talk to prayer appointments where I'll talk to prayer appointments where I'll talk to somebody, pray pray for them and somebody, pray pray for them and somebody, pray pray for them and so that time is meaningful. so that time is meaningful. so that time is meaningful. And it also helps me with my my next And it also helps me with my my next And it also helps me with my my next message, knowing how I want to lean in. message, knowing how I want to lean in. message, knowing how I want to lean in. Okay, so I have to ask you this. How Okay, so I have to ask you this. How Okay, so I have to ask you this. How does does does How does that Okay, so how many people How does that Okay, so how many people How does that Okay, so how many people total? You have a big attendance, but total? You have a big attendance, but total? You have a big attendance, but how many people total would call how many people total would call how many people total would call Southeast their home? Southeast their home? Southeast their home? Well, at that one campus where I in that Well, at that one campus where I in that Well, at that one campus where I in that where it's a broadcast campus is would where it's a broadcast campus is would where it's a broadcast campus is would be around 11 or 12,000. Yeah, but total be around 11 or 12,000. Yeah, but total be around 11 or 12,000. Yeah, but total global with all the locations? global with all the locations? global with all the locations? Total uh maybe around 40, 45,000. Yeah, Total uh maybe around 40, 45,000. Yeah, Total uh maybe around 40, 45,000. Yeah, that's a lot of people and you're like, that's a lot of people and you're like, that's a lot of people and you're like, "I'll meet with anybody." So there are "I'll meet with anybody." So there are "I'll meet with anybody." So there are people who pastor churches of 200 who people who pastor churches of 200 who people who pastor churches of 200 who feel overwhelmed. I got to ask the feel overwhelmed. I got to ask the feel overwhelmed. I got to ask the question. How does that actually work question. How does that actually work question. How does that actually work out in real life? Well, first of all, I out in real life? Well, first of all, I out in real life? Well, first of all, I tell you that I don't announce that.

tell you that I don't announce that. tell you that I don't announce that. Like I don't say Like I don't say Like I don't say saying, "Hey, I'm going to give saying, "Hey, I'm going to give saying, "Hey, I'm going to give everybody my phone number is Yeah, my everybody my phone number is Yeah, my everybody my phone number is Yeah, my cell is Yeah. cell is Yeah. cell is Yeah. Yeah, so I don't Yeah, I don't I don't Yeah, so I don't Yeah, I don't I don't Yeah, so I don't Yeah, I don't I don't announce it, but if someone calls announce it, but if someone calls announce it, but if someone calls Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And And And sometimes, Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And And And sometimes, Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And And And sometimes, you know, it's amazing how many times if you know, it's amazing how many times if you know, it's amazing how many times if if somebody wants to meet with you about if somebody wants to meet with you about if somebody wants to meet with you about something and you and you if it's a something and you and you if it's a something and you and you if it's a urgent pastoral care need, I'll make urgent pastoral care need, I'll make urgent pastoral care need, I'll make sure, you know, to connect them to to sure, you know, to connect them to to sure, you know, to connect them to to somebody right away. I don't want to But somebody right away. I don't want to But somebody right away. I don't want to But But often times, they're happy to wait a But often times, they're happy to wait a But often times, they're happy to wait a couple weeks to sit down and and and couple weeks to sit down and and and couple weeks to sit down and and and visit, so. This episode is brought to visit, so. This episode is brought to visit, so. This episode is brought to you by Gloo. Well, pastors, I've you by Gloo. Well, pastors, I've you by Gloo. Well, pastors, I've subscribed to a new free text newsletter subscribed to a new free text newsletter subscribed to a new free text newsletter called the Gloo feed. It's a quick hit called the Gloo feed. It's a quick hit called the Gloo feed. It's a quick hit of the latest research, polls, and of the latest research, polls, and of the latest research, polls, and updates in the church ecosystem. What I updates in the church ecosystem. What I updates in the church ecosystem. What I love is it saves me hours. Instead of love is it saves me hours. Instead of love is it saves me hours. Instead of hunting down info, it just shows up on hunting down info, it just shows up on hunting down info, it just shows up on my phone. So, I've got Brad Hill, chief my phone. So, I've got Brad Hill, chief my phone. So, I've got Brad Hill, chief solutions officer at Gloo, here to talk solutions officer at Gloo, here to talk solutions officer at Gloo, here to talk a little bit more about it. a little bit more about it. a little bit more about it. Yeah, Carey, the Gloo feed, it's really Yeah, Carey, the Gloo feed, it's really Yeah, Carey, the Gloo feed, it's really changing the game for staying up-to-date changing the game for staying up-to-date changing the game for staying up-to-date with all that's going on across the with all that's going on across the with all that's going on across the church today. And you're exactly right church today. And you're exactly right church today. And you're exactly right what you said. It's What's happening what you said. It's What's happening what you said. It's What's happening with the Gloo feed is we're evolving the with the Gloo feed is we're evolving the with the Gloo feed is we're evolving the way pastors and leaders stay informed.

way pastors and leaders stay informed. way pastors and leaders stay informed. Um we're connecting the whole faith Um we're connecting the whole faith Um we're connecting the whole faith ecosystem across churches and ministries ecosystem across churches and ministries ecosystem across churches and ministries nationwide. And we kind of do the heavy nationwide. And we kind of do the heavy nationwide. And we kind of do the heavy lifting so that you get all the latest lifting so that you get all the latest lifting so that you get all the latest trends, information, updates from the trends, information, updates from the trends, information, updates from the leaders that you trust. Um you get these leaders that you trust. Um you get these leaders that you trust. Um you get these short, curated, helpful texts. No long short, curated, helpful texts. No long short, curated, helpful texts. No long emails. No irrelevant noise. Just the emails. No irrelevant noise. Just the emails. No irrelevant noise. Just the things, you know, that you want to know. things, you know, that you want to know. things, you know, that you want to know. Uh one leader even shared with us Uh one leader even shared with us Uh one leader even shared with us recently, this The Gloo feed is the one recently, this The Gloo feed is the one recently, this The Gloo feed is the one text that I actually want to get every text that I actually want to get every text that I actually want to get every week. It's everything I need to serve my week. It's everything I need to serve my week. It's everything I need to serve my church better in one place. church better in one place. church better in one place. curated content is more and more curated content is more and more curated content is more and more important in a world that's drowning in important in a world that's drowning in important in a world that's drowning in content. Doesn't get any easier than the content. Doesn't get any easier than the content. Doesn't get any easier than the Gloo feed. So, you can join for free. Gloo feed. So, you can join for free. Gloo feed. So, you can join for free. Takes about 5 seconds. Here's what you Takes about 5 seconds. Here's what you Takes about 5 seconds. Here's what you do. do. do. Text my name, Carey, c r e y, to 46816. Text my name, Carey, c r e y, to 46816. Text my name, Carey, c r e y, to 46816. That's Carey, c a r e y, to 46816. That's Carey, c a r e y, to 46816. That's Carey, c a r e y, to 46816. Just just to follow that rabbit trail, Just just to follow that rabbit trail, Just just to follow that rabbit trail, how many of those meetings are how many of those meetings are how many of those meetings are worthwhile and how many are of those worthwhile and how many are of those worthwhile and how many are of those meetings percentage-wise are you like meetings percentage-wise are you like meetings percentage-wise are you like shouldn't have taken that one?

shouldn't have taken that one? shouldn't have taken that one? What do you find? What do you find? What do you find? If they are if it's a pastoral need, If they are if it's a pastoral need, If they are if it's a pastoral need, like if it's somebody who has a serious like if it's somebody who has a serious like if it's somebody who has a serious faith question or they're going through faith question or they're going through faith question or they're going through a struggle with their a struggle with their a struggle with their teenager or their marriage is having teenager or their marriage is having teenager or their marriage is having some issues, some issues, some issues, like like like I'm amazed how a 10-minute conversation I'm amazed how a 10-minute conversation I'm amazed how a 10-minute conversation and a prayer can and a prayer can and a prayer can be so be so be so productive. And then I'll follow I'll productive. And then I'll follow I'll productive. And then I'll follow I'll have somebody follow up with them, you have somebody follow up with them, you have somebody follow up with them, you know, and walk with them in a in a more know, and walk with them in a in a more know, and walk with them in a in a more meaningful way. But meaningful way. But meaningful way. But So there's been a little bit of vetting, So there's been a little bit of vetting, So there's been a little bit of vetting, like do you ask what do you want to meet like do you ask what do you want to meet like do you ask what do you want to meet with me about? Somebody's like, oh, I with me about? Somebody's like, oh, I with me about? Somebody's like, oh, I read this amazing book and you should read this amazing book and you should read this amazing book and you should change your whole theology, you're change your whole theology, you're change your whole theology, you're probably not taking that meeting. Yeah, probably not taking that meeting. Yeah, probably not taking that meeting. Yeah, I I don't usually meet with or out of I I don't usually meet with or out of I I don't usually meet with or out of town seminary students, you want to stay town seminary students, you want to stay town seminary students, you want to stay away from them. away from them. away from them. Yeah, so yeah, there is some of that Yeah, so yeah, there is some of that Yeah, so yeah, there is some of that thing that goes on. thing that goes on. thing that goes on. Okay, okay, good. Good to know. No, that Okay, okay, good. Good to know. No, that Okay, okay, good. Good to know. No, that you know what? It's this stuff that you know what? It's this stuff that you know what? It's this stuff that takes us out sometimes and makes us lose takes us out sometimes and makes us lose takes us out sometimes and makes us lose our our our enthusiasm. So Kyle, you also admitted enthusiasm. So Kyle, you also admitted enthusiasm. So Kyle, you also admitted that you have the spiritual gift of that you have the spiritual gift of that you have the spiritual gift of disappointing people. What what do you disappointing people. What what do you disappointing people. What what do you mean by that?

mean by that? mean by that? Well, you know, I I think from a Well, you know, I I think from a Well, you know, I I think from a leadership perspective one of the things leadership perspective one of the things leadership perspective one of the things I was not prepared for is making decisions where every at least it making decisions where every at least it feels like every potential outcome and feels like every potential outcome and feels like every potential outcome and direction is going to disappoint someone direction is going to disappoint someone direction is going to disappoint someone in ways that you could not have possibly in ways that you could not have possibly in ways that you could not have possibly anticipated. And and so you think, okay, anticipated. And and so you think, okay, anticipated. And and so you think, okay, I can navigate this or here's a decision I can navigate this or here's a decision I can navigate this or here's a decision that we can work through that we can work through that we can work through and then you find out that, you know, and then you find out that, you know, and then you find out that, you know, somebody somewhere is disappointed and somebody somewhere is disappointed and somebody somewhere is disappointed and and it can be exhausting to if you're and it can be exhausting to if you're and it can be exhausting to if you're trying to always make at least, you trying to always make at least, you trying to always make at least, you know, somebody happy based upon know, somebody happy based upon know, somebody happy based upon direction and decision. And And so I direction and decision. And And so I direction and decision. And And so I feel the weight of that at times where I feel the weight of that at times where I feel the weight of that at times where I just think, man, all I did today was just think, man, all I did today was just think, man, all I did today was was disappoint people. was disappoint people. was disappoint people. And um, And um, And um, you know, I I I look at Jesus and he you know, I I I look at Jesus and he you know, I I I look at Jesus and he disappointed a lot of people. Like I you disappointed a lot of people. Like I you disappointed a lot of people. Like I you could certainly make the case that he could certainly make the case that he could certainly make the case that he disappointed a number of the disciples disappointed a number of the disciples disappointed a number of the disciples who had their who had their who had their uh their idea of what a Messiah should uh their idea of what a Messiah should uh their idea of what a Messiah should be. He He disappointed uh religious be. He He disappointed uh religious be. He He disappointed uh religious leaders. He disappointed, you know, the leaders. He disappointed, you know, the leaders. He disappointed, you know, the rich young ruler when he told him what rich young ruler when he told him what rich young ruler when he told him what he didn't want to hear, you know.

he didn't want to hear, you know. he didn't want to hear, you know. Um recognizing that effective ministry Um recognizing that effective ministry Um recognizing that effective ministry and leadership is it you can't do it in and leadership is it you can't do it in and leadership is it you can't do it in a way that doesn't disappoint you. a way that doesn't disappoint you. a way that doesn't disappoint you. People are going to be disap- People are going to be disap- People are going to be disap- disappointed. I would say practically disappointed. I would say practically disappointed. I would say practically speaking, like if I let me use our staff speaking, like if I let me use our staff speaking, like if I let me use our staff as an example, one of the things I as an example, one of the things I as an example, one of the things I didn't really understand is that didn't really understand is that didn't really understand is that there's an opportunity in disappointing there's an opportunity in disappointing there's an opportunity in disappointing people to gain respect, meaning that you people to gain respect, meaning that you people to gain respect, meaning that you disappoint point them because of maybe disappoint point them because of maybe disappoint point them because of maybe you didn't do things the way they wanted you didn't do things the way they wanted you didn't do things the way they wanted or a decision or direction didn't go the or a decision or direction didn't go the or a decision or direction didn't go the way they hoped, way they hoped, way they hoped, but they appreciate clear direction. And but they appreciate clear direction. And but they appreciate clear direction. And by trying to be ambiguous or not make a by trying to be ambiguous or not make a by trying to be ambiguous or not make a decision, that's more disappointing to decision, that's more disappointing to decision, that's more disappointing to people. And and so, people. And and so, people. And and so, you know, embracing some you know, embracing some you know, embracing some this is going to disappoint the person, this is going to disappoint the person, this is going to disappoint the person, but it's an opportunity to but it's an opportunity to but it's an opportunity to uh to gain some respect. uh to gain some respect. uh to gain some respect. That helped me to see it that way. That helped me to see it that way. That helped me to see it that way. How do you decide who to disappoint?

Mhm. Mhm. You know, You know, You know, it's a great question. I It doesn't To it's a great question. I It doesn't To it's a great question. I It doesn't To me, so much of it doesn't feel me, so much of it doesn't feel me, so much of it doesn't feel like a a choice. I will say like a a choice. I will say like a a choice. I will say the mistake I've made the mistake I've made the mistake I've made is is is choosing to disappoint, choosing to disappoint, choosing to disappoint, you know, um you know, um you know, um my wife or disappoint one of my kids my wife or disappoint one of my kids my wife or disappoint one of my kids um because I didn't want to disappoint a um because I didn't want to disappoint a um because I didn't want to disappoint a church member or a staff person, church member or a staff person, church member or a staff person, you know, it was is is a bad trait and you know, it was is is a bad trait and you know, it was is is a bad trait and it can feel like I can it's okay to it can feel like I can it's okay to it can feel like I can it's okay to disappoint them because, you know, it's disappoint them because, you know, it's disappoint them because, you know, it's their job to accept me and forgive me their job to accept me and forgive me their job to accept me and forgive me and uh so it doesn't I I would say most and uh so it doesn't I I would say most and uh so it doesn't I I would say most of the time it doesn't feel like a of the time it doesn't feel like a of the time it doesn't feel like a choice, but there's probably your choice, but there's probably your choice, but there's probably your question's a great question because if I question's a great question because if I question's a great question because if I stopped and really looked at it, there's stopped and really looked at it, there's stopped and really looked at it, there's probably more choice to it than I would probably more choice to it than I would probably more choice to it than I would um want to acknowledge and and you know, um want to acknowledge and and you know, um want to acknowledge and and you know, too often times you end up disappointing too often times you end up disappointing too often times you end up disappointing the people that the people that the people that you know will be most understanding and you know will be most understanding and you know will be most understanding and um um um that's a good question.

that's a good question. that's a good question. Such a great reminder, too. I've done Such a great reminder, too. I've done Such a great reminder, too. I've done that way too many times where I've that way too many times where I've that way too many times where I've disappointed the people closest to me disappointed the people closest to me disappointed the people closest to me uh for the sake of somebody who I might uh for the sake of somebody who I might uh for the sake of somebody who I might never talk to again. Yeah. Yeah. never talk to again. Yeah. Yeah. never talk to again. Yeah. Yeah. Um Um Um when you think about your thought life, when you think about your thought life, when you think about your thought life, why did you write about your thought why did you write about your thought why did you write about your thought life? A couple of reasons. Um A couple of reasons. Um first there's a personal journey to it first there's a personal journey to it first there's a personal journey to it that I wanted to grow in. I don't know, that I wanted to grow in. I don't know, that I wanted to grow in. I don't know, you know, when when you write, there's a you know, when when you write, there's a you know, when when you write, there's a sense in which you're you have other sense in which you're you have other sense in which you're you have other people in mind that you know about the people in mind that you know about the people in mind that you know about the journey they're on and then you also journey they're on and then you also journey they're on and then you also know your own know your own know your own your own growth and what is needed in your own growth and what is needed in your own growth and what is needed in your life and I enjoy writing about your life and I enjoy writing about your life and I enjoy writing about something where I want to help people, something where I want to help people, something where I want to help people, but I also know it's something that but I also know it's something that but I also know it's something that needs attention. And and so for me needs attention. And and so for me needs attention. And and so for me there's there's that balance. Uh I I I there's there's that balance. Uh I I I there's there's that balance. Uh I I I have had a harder time I'm I turned uh have had a harder time I'm I turned uh have had a harder time I'm I turned uh 49 last month and 49 last month and 49 last month and I've been a I've been a I've been a I I would say I was a gen Thank you. I'd I I would say I was a gen Thank you. I'd I I would say I was a gen Thank you. I'd say generationally I was not really say generationally I was not really say generationally I was not really prepared for different distractions prepared for different distractions prepared for different distractions uh on the level that that I uh on the level that that I uh on the level that that I struggled with in more recent years. Um struggled with in more recent years. Um struggled with in more recent years. Um What do you mean by distractions? Yeah, What do you mean by distractions? Yeah, What do you mean by distractions? Yeah, so I watch my kids so I've got four kids so I watch my kids so I've got four kids so I watch my kids so I've got four kids in their 20s and I watch them and they in their 20s and I watch them and they in their 20s and I watch them and they do better with how they manage social do better with how they manage social do better with how they manage social media than I do. And you know, I you media than I do. And you know, I you media than I do. And you know, I you wouldn't think that but they grew up wouldn't think that but they grew up wouldn't think that but they grew up enough with it that they recognize, you enough with it that they recognize, you enough with it that they recognize, you know, how these bound boundaries are know, how these bound boundaries are know, how these bound boundaries are important and like how this is they'll

important and like how this is they'll important and like how this is they'll call me on it more than I'll call them call me on it more than I'll call them call me on it more than I'll call them on it. Um, they they they do better at on it. Um, they they they do better at on it. Um, they they they do better at managing some of their screen time than managing some of their screen time than managing some of their screen time than I do and I do and I do and I've found that, you know, people in my I've found that, you know, people in my I've found that, you know, people in my age range that they weren't prepared for age range that they weren't prepared for age range that they weren't prepared for it. They didn't necessarily see it it. They didn't necessarily see it it. They didn't necessarily see it coming and and so some, you know, their coming and and so some, you know, their coming and and so some, you know, their life can can life can can life can can be dominated by some of those be dominated by some of those be dominated by some of those distractions. Um, and I I could feel distractions. Um, and I I could feel distractions. Um, and I I could feel that. I could just feel the fact that I that. I could just feel the fact that I that. I could just feel the fact that I need I need to be a lot more need I need to be a lot more need I need to be a lot more intentional. Um, I'll give you just a intentional. Um, I'll give you just a intentional. Um, I'll give you just a practical example of this of you know, practical example of this of you know, practical example of this of you know, in in in the mornings I got into this in in in the mornings I got into this in in in the mornings I got into this really bad routine of, uh, you know, really bad routine of, uh, you know, really bad routine of, uh, you know, waking up and checking my phone and waking up and checking my phone and waking up and checking my phone and reading the news. I can be a little bit reading the news. I can be a little bit reading the news. I can be a little bit of a news junkie. Uh, you know, watching of a news junkie. Uh, you know, watching of a news junkie. Uh, you know, watching a few YouTube stories or reels uh and a few YouTube stories or reels uh and a few YouTube stories or reels uh and you know, kind of starting my day that you know, kind of starting my day that you know, kind of starting my day that way and and you know, I I just began to way and and you know, I I just began to way and and you know, I I just began to recognize like, okay, recognize like, okay, recognize like, okay, that if that's how I start my day then that if that's how I start my day then that if that's how I start my day then I'm kind of wiring my thought life to be I'm kind of wiring my thought life to be I'm kind of wiring my thought life to be anxious and reactive throughout the day.

anxious and reactive throughout the day. anxious and reactive throughout the day. If I can if I recognize the importance If I can if I recognize the importance If I can if I recognize the importance or the priority of or the priority of or the priority of those morning thoughts I'm I'm going to those morning thoughts I'm I'm going to those morning thoughts I'm I'm going to I'm going to be so much more intentional I'm going to be so much more intentional I'm going to be so much more intentional and and then I started researching that and and then I started researching that and and then I started researching that and I saw how consistent in scripture and I saw how consistent in scripture and I saw how consistent in scripture morning time priority was for Jesus, for morning time priority was for Jesus, for morning time priority was for Jesus, for leaders. Um, and uh, and then I was leaders. Um, and uh, and then I was leaders. Um, and uh, and then I was reading reading reading some neuroscience about how, you know, some neuroscience about how, you know, some neuroscience about how, you know, your brain in the mornings, your brain in the mornings, your brain in the mornings, um, you're setting trajectory for your um, you're setting trajectory for your um, you're setting trajectory for your thoughts for the rest of the day. Like thoughts for the rest of the day. Like thoughts for the rest of the day. Like what do you think about when you first what do you think about when you first what do you think about when you first wake up has a way of wiring your brain wake up has a way of wiring your brain wake up has a way of wiring your brain for certain emotions or for certain emotions or for certain emotions or you know uh, you know uh, you know uh, different thinking different thinking different thinking And and so I I kind of put that together And and so I I kind of put that together And and so I I kind of put that together with the scriptural mandate and some of with the scriptural mandate and some of with the scriptural mandate and some of what we know about science and began to what we know about science and began to what we know about science and began to practice that in my own life and I've practice that in my own life and I've practice that in my own life and I've just become convinced like this is huge. just become convinced like this is huge. just become convinced like this is huge. Like if you if you as a pastor if I can Like if you if you as a pastor if I can Like if you if you as a pastor if I can talk to our church about the first five talk to our church about the first five talk to our church about the first five or 10 minutes of their day taking their or 10 minutes of their day taking their or 10 minutes of their day taking their thoughts captive and being intentional thoughts captive and being intentional thoughts captive and being intentional with their thinking with their thinking with their thinking you know it it is life-changing. I you know it it is life-changing. I you know it it is life-changing. I really believe that this is true. It really believe that this is true. It really believe that this is true. It doesn't even take that much time. So doesn't even take that much time. So doesn't even take that much time. So let me nail down nail this down a little let me nail down nail this down a little let me nail down nail this down a little bit more like if I take an hour around bit more like if I take an hour around bit more like if I take an hour around you know lunch that's good. But I would you know lunch that's good. But I would you know lunch that's good. But I would argue that taking 10 minutes when I argue that taking 10 minutes when I argue that taking 10 minutes when I first wake up bears more fruit first wake up bears more fruit first wake up bears more fruit spiritually, emotionally, relationally spiritually, emotionally, relationally spiritually, emotionally, relationally uh uh uh mental health it mental health it mental health it than if I take an hour later in the day.

than if I take an hour later in the day. than if I take an hour later in the day. And so some of those you know some of And so some of those you know some of And so some of those you know some of those things that I have learned that I those things that I have learned that I those things that I have learned that I think are biblically consistent but then think are biblically consistent but then think are biblically consistent but then also backed up with research uh have also backed up with research uh have also backed up with research uh have have really impacted me and uh and so I have really impacted me and uh and so I have really impacted me and uh and so I wanted to write about that. Well being wanted to write about that. Well being wanted to write about that. Well being 49 you have some pre-digital memory 49 you have some pre-digital memory 49 you have some pre-digital memory right? I definitely right? I definitely right? I definitely Yeah sure. Yeah. Yeah sure. Yeah. Yeah sure. Yeah. Um and there really wasn't an option to Um and there really wasn't an option to Um and there really wasn't an option to scroll our phones 25 years ago. There's scroll our phones 25 years ago. There's scroll our phones 25 years ago. There's nothing to scroll. There's nothing to nothing to scroll. There's nothing to nothing to scroll. There's nothing to see. Right? Maybe you check your see. Right? Maybe you check your see. Right? Maybe you check your voicemail but nobody really woke up and voicemail but nobody really woke up and voicemail but nobody really woke up and check the voicemail like it just didn't check the voicemail like it just didn't check the voicemail like it just didn't happen right? happen right? happen right? Did you ever have a Did you ever have a Did you ever have a Did you ever have a Did you ever have a Did you ever have a pager? pager? pager? What's that? Yeah your pager like oh my What's that? Yeah your pager like oh my What's that? Yeah your pager like oh my pager went off at 3:00 a.m. what should pager went off at 3:00 a.m. what should pager went off at 3:00 a.m. what should I do? Yeah. I do? Yeah. I do? Yeah. Yeah I missed that one. I never had a Yeah I missed that one. I never had a Yeah I missed that one. I never had a pager. pager. pager. Uh but um Uh but um Uh but um like you know I know most of our our like you know I know most of our our like you know I know most of our our listeners don't really have a listeners don't really have a listeners don't really have a pre-digital memory but you know did you pre-digital memory but you know did you pre-digital memory but you know did you notice a big shift with the advent of notice a big shift with the advent of notice a big shift with the advent of technology on how you felt during the technology on how you felt during the technology on how you felt during the day? Uh you know it was subtle. I think day? Uh you know it was subtle. I think day? Uh you know it was subtle. I think that's one of the reasons it caught me that's one of the reasons it caught me that's one of the reasons it caught me off guard where you know suddenly it's off guard where you know suddenly it's off guard where you know suddenly it's it's an issue. But I've also discovered it's an issue. But I've also discovered it's an issue. But I've also discovered that that that there are tools that Well let me tell there are tools that Well let me tell there are tools that Well let me tell you about this app that I've been using you about this app that I've been using you about this app that I've been using called uh ClearSpace.

called uh ClearSpace. called uh ClearSpace. And the way it's set up is it you you And the way it's set up is it you you And the way it's set up is it you you put the camera on your phone on your And put the camera on your phone on your And put the camera on your phone on your And then it counts how many push-ups you do then it counts how many push-ups you do then it counts how many push-ups you do or how many squats you do, and then it or how many squats you do, and then it or how many squats you do, and then it gives you 1 minute of screen time for gives you 1 minute of screen time for gives you 1 minute of screen time for every push-up or squat that you do. every push-up or squat that you do. every push-up or squat that you do. And uh And uh And uh which is awesome which is awesome which is awesome a minute of push-ups. It's just one a minute of push-ups. It's just one a minute of push-ups. It's just one push-up equals 1 minute. push-up equals 1 minute. push-up equals 1 minute. One push-up equals 1 minute, which my One push-up equals 1 minute, which my One push-up equals 1 minute, which my son thinks is, you know, too generous, son thinks is, you know, too generous, son thinks is, you know, too generous, but it's it's not, you know, it's it's but it's it's not, you know, it's it's but it's it's not, you know, it's it's not. And so I I love I love the fact not. And so I I love I love the fact not. And so I I love I love the fact that here's a device that can sometimes that here's a device that can sometimes that here's a device that can sometimes be uh be uh be uh demonized as as the source of demonized as as the source of demonized as as the source of distraction, but it can also be used, distraction, but it can also be used, distraction, but it can also be used, you know, as a discipleship tool or as a you know, as a discipleship tool or as a you know, as a discipleship tool or as a tool to help me be more disciplined. And tool to help me be more disciplined. And tool to help me be more disciplined. And uh uh uh And so I've been doing that recently of And so I've been doing that recently of And so I've been doing that recently of starting my day off, okay, 25 push-ups, starting my day off, okay, 25 push-ups, starting my day off, okay, 25 push-ups, 25 squats, that gives me 50 minutes of 25 squats, that gives me 50 minutes of 25 squats, that gives me 50 minutes of screen time, you know, on these uh screen time, you know, on these uh screen time, you know, on these uh different apps. And and using, you know, different apps. And and using, you know, different apps. And and using, you know, using some of that to help me be more using some of that to help me be more using some of that to help me be more disciplined with my distractions. disciplined with my distractions. disciplined with my distractions. That's great. I actually put myself on That's great. I actually put myself on That's great. I actually put myself on restriction. restriction. restriction. At New Year's, I'm like, all right, only At New Year's, I'm like, all right, only At New Year's, I'm like, all right, only so much news, I capped it, so much so much news, I capped it, so much so much news, I capped it, so much social media, I capped it. Sometimes I social media, I capped it. Sometimes I social media, I capped it. Sometimes I blow by the limits cuz you can hit that blow by the limits cuz you can hit that blow by the limits cuz you can hit that button, button, button, but for the most part, I try to stay but for the most part, I try to stay but for the most part, I try to stay within them. It's funny, on my bad days, within them. It's funny, on my bad days, within them. It's funny, on my bad days, I'm more like, oh, I've earned this and I'm more like, oh, I've earned this and I'm more like, oh, I've earned this and it's better than than hitting the it's better than than hitting the it's better than than hitting the pantry. Uh but yeah, I mean, it's it's pantry. Uh but yeah, I mean, it's it's pantry. Uh but yeah, I mean, it's it's it's a battle for all of us. So, um your it's a battle for all of us. So, um your it's a battle for all of us. So, um your thought life goes in a few different thought life goes in a few different thought life goes in a few different directions. I think a lot of us, Kyle, directions. I think a lot of us, Kyle, directions. I think a lot of us, Kyle, struggle with struggle with struggle with destructive thoughts, lies.

destructive thoughts, lies. destructive thoughts, lies. What are some of the most damaging lies What are some of the most damaging lies What are some of the most damaging lies you've had to contend with in your life you've had to contend with in your life you've had to contend with in your life as a pastor? as a pastor? as a pastor? Yeah, we touched on this a bit, but I Yeah, we touched on this a bit, but I Yeah, we touched on this a bit, but I would say this idea would say this idea would say this idea that my that my that my my identity or my worth is connected to my identity or my worth is connected to my identity or my worth is connected to um um um measurable outcomes. You know, it's it's measurable outcomes. You know, it's it's measurable outcomes. You know, it's it's the performance-based identity is all it the performance-based identity is all it the performance-based identity is all it is. is. is. But, you know, that that lie But, you know, that that lie But, you know, that that lie is especially dangerous for someone in is especially dangerous for someone in is especially dangerous for someone in spiritual leadership because spiritual leadership because spiritual leadership because specifically because that lie can specifically because that lie can specifically because that lie can masquerade as spiritual success. masquerade as spiritual success. masquerade as spiritual success. Uh you know, where I look at it and say, Uh you know, where I look at it and say, Uh you know, where I look at it and say, "Well, I must be spiritually healthy "Well, I must be spiritually healthy "Well, I must be spiritually healthy because this because this because this because of this fruit that's being because of this fruit that's being because of this fruit that's being produced." And so, I I I think this lie produced." And so, I I I think this lie produced." And so, I I I think this lie can be especially dangerous for people can be especially dangerous for people can be especially dangerous for people in those roles. Um and when I am caught in those roles. Um and when I am caught in those roles. Um and when I am caught up in that lie, I this goes back to our up in that lie, I this goes back to our up in that lie, I this goes back to our initial conversation about sabbatical. initial conversation about sabbatical. initial conversation about sabbatical. You know, I start living in leadership You know, I start living in leadership You know, I start living in leadership rhythms that are driven by production rhythms that are driven by production rhythms that are driven by production rather than connection. I think we rather than connection. I think we rather than connection. I think we sometimes stop short of the connection sometimes stop short of the connection sometimes stop short of the connection conversation. We just say, you know, conversation. We just say, you know, conversation. We just say, you know, don't don't don't don't don't don't don't be so caught up in you know, the don't be so caught up in you know, the don't be so caught up in you know, the measurables. But but but it's not just measurables. But but but it's not just measurables. But but but it's not just it it's also connection. It's it's it's it it's also connection. It's it's it's it it's also connection. It's it's it's measuring, you know, where I'm at not by measuring, you know, where I'm at not by measuring, you know, where I'm at not by what I've produced but but by the what I've produced but but by the what I've produced but but by the connections in my life. My connection connections in my life. My connection connections in my life. My connection with God, my connection with you know, with God, my connection with you know, with God, my connection with you know, my wife, with other people.

my wife, with other people. my wife, with other people. And I I just find that to be very And I I just find that to be very And I I just find that to be very difficult in in this role because difficult in in this role because difficult in in this role because everything the production things feels everything the production things feels everything the production things feels so important and feels so uh worth so important and feels so uh worth so important and feels so uh worth worthwhile. worthwhile. worthwhile. Um you know, the one of our mantras as a Um you know, the one of our mantras as a Um you know, the one of our mantras as a church staff is uh be the branch from church staff is uh be the branch from church staff is uh be the branch from John 15:5 where you know, Jesus says, John 15:5 where you know, Jesus says, John 15:5 where you know, Jesus says, "You are the vine, you're the branches. "You are the vine, you're the branches. "You are the vine, you're the branches. If you remain in me and I remain in you, If you remain in me and I remain in you, If you remain in me and I remain in you, you'll bear much fruit. Apart from me, you'll bear much fruit. Apart from me, you'll bear much fruit. Apart from me, you can't do anything." you can't do anything." you can't do anything." And, you know, in his final moments with And, you know, in his final moments with And, you know, in his final moments with the disciples, his focus with them the disciples, his focus with them the disciples, his focus with them is not on production. Here's all you is not on production. Here's all you is not on production. Here's all you know, here's your five-year plan of know, here's your five-year plan of know, here's your five-year plan of everything you need to accomplish to everything you need to accomplish to everything you need to accomplish to you know, carry out the Great you know, carry out the Great you know, carry out the Great Commission. It's it it's connection. Commission. It's it it's connection. Commission. It's it it's connection. It's like, "Hey, you I'll be the vine, It's like, "Hey, you I'll be the vine, It's like, "Hey, you I'll be the vine, you be the branch. And if you do that, you be the branch. And if you do that, you be the branch. And if you do that, you're going to bear much fruit. But I you're going to bear much fruit. But I you're going to bear much fruit. But I you know, it's like I feel like that's a you know, it's like I feel like that's a you know, it's like I feel like that's a constant struggle. There's something constant struggle. There's something constant struggle. There's something deep within me that will, you know, that deep within me that will, you know, that deep within me that will, you know, that neural pathway is well established in my neural pathway is well established in my neural pathway is well established in my mind that mind that mind that what I got done today, what I produced what I got done today, what I produced what I got done today, what I produced today today today is measures is measures is measures you know, measures me and rather than you know, measures me and rather than you know, measures me and rather than connection.

connection. connection. That's a really powerful insight and That's a really powerful insight and That's a really powerful insight and something, you know, I'm a performance something, you know, I'm a performance something, you know, I'm a performance addict. I get totally addict. I get totally addict. I get totally caught up in that. caught up in that. caught up in that. Um how do you disentangle production Um how do you disentangle production Um how do you disentangle production from connection? How are you doing that? from connection? How are you doing that? from connection? How are you doing that? Uh Uh Uh well, I think part of the lie is that well, I think part of the lie is that well, I think part of the lie is that you know, that makes it even more you know, that makes it even more you know, that makes it even more dangerous is that I think production is dangerous is that I think production is dangerous is that I think production is what earns me connection. what earns me connection. what earns me connection. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Oh. you know, that if I produce enough that you know, that if I produce enough that you know, that if I produce enough that Jesus Oh, that that's what connects me Jesus Oh, that that's what connects me Jesus Oh, that that's what connects me to Jesus. I do I do so in my mind. to Jesus. I do I do so in my mind. to Jesus. I do I do so in my mind. do so in my Yeah, good job. Now we're do so in my Yeah, good job. Now we're do so in my Yeah, good job. Now we're connected because you got this done. connected because you got this done. connected because you got this done. And uh And uh And uh one of the one of the one of the one of the one of the one of the moments for me that brought this home moments for me that brought this home moments for me that brought this home was uh was uh was uh I I came home from work I I came home from work I I came home from work maybe a year or two ago and um my wife maybe a year or two ago and um my wife maybe a year or two ago and um my wife and I and I and I that time of year would often go for that time of year would often go for that time of year would often go for walks in the evening, but the grass, walks in the evening, but the grass, walks in the evening, but the grass, you'll appreciate this, the grass really you'll appreciate this, the grass really you'll appreciate this, the grass really needed to be mowed. And needed to be mowed. And needed to be mowed. And and in my mind and in my mind and in my mind in my mind, I'm like, okay, if I mow the in my mind, I'm like, okay, if I mow the in my mind, I'm like, okay, if I mow the grass, I'll have some number one, I'll grass, I'll have some number one, I'll grass, I'll have some number one, I'll have something to show for it. I can have something to show for it. I can have something to show for it. I can point to it. I can say, look what I got point to it. I can say, look what I got point to it. I can say, look what I got done today and it'll connect me to my done today and it'll connect me to my done today and it'll connect me to my wife because she'll be so glad that the wife because she'll be so glad that the wife because she'll be so glad that the grass got mowed. And so, honey, I'm not grass got mowed. And so, honey, I'm not grass got mowed. And so, honey, I'm not going to go on a walk like we had going to go on a walk like we had going to go on a walk like we had planned cuz if I go on a walk, I got planned cuz if I go on a walk, I got planned cuz if I go on a walk, I got nothing to show for it. We We just went nothing to show for it. We We just went nothing to show for it. We We just went on a walk. You know, we ended up where on a walk. You know, we ended up where on a walk. You know, we ended up where we started. Like nothing tangibly, you we started. Like nothing tangibly, you we started. Like nothing tangibly, you know, you you can't point to it. You know, you you can't point to it. You know, you you can't point to it. You just You just went for a walk. And I and just You just went for a walk. And I and just You just went for a walk. And I and then I started to just recognize how

then I started to just recognize how then I started to just recognize how that is that is that is how I am often in my relationship with how I am often in my relationship with how I am often in my relationship with God of like, "Okay, God, I can't walk God of like, "Okay, God, I can't walk God of like, "Okay, God, I can't walk with you right now because the grass with you right now because the grass with you right now because the grass needs mowed because these the needs mowed because these the needs mowed because these the my the priority of production, which I'm my the priority of production, which I'm my the priority of production, which I'm by the way I'm doing for you. You know, by the way I'm doing for you. You know, by the way I'm doing for you. You know, I'm doing that." I'm doing that." I'm doing that." Um Um Um And and that's, you know, that's not the And and that's, you know, that's not the And and that's, you know, that's not the that's not the relationship. It's it's that's not the relationship. It's it's that's not the relationship. It's it's not production then connection. It's not production then connection. It's not production then connection. It's connection and then production. connection and then production. connection and then production. Wow. Wow. Wow. You identified five destructive thought You identified five destructive thought You identified five destructive thought patterns. We may have touched on some of patterns. We may have touched on some of patterns. We may have touched on some of them already, but I wonder if you could them already, but I wonder if you could them already, but I wonder if you could outline them because, yeah, outline them because, yeah, outline them because, yeah, I think we all struggle with negative I think we all struggle with negative I think we all struggle with negative thoughts. thoughts. thoughts. The the two that we touched on at least The the two that we touched on at least The the two that we touched on at least a little bit was insecurity and a little bit was insecurity and a little bit was insecurity and distraction. distraction. distraction. Uh the other three would be Uh the other three would be Uh the other three would be um um um the pattern of of pleasure, the pattern the pattern of of pleasure, the pattern the pattern of of pleasure, the pattern of despair, of despair, of despair, uh and then, you know, one that I think uh and then, you know, one that I think uh and then, you know, one that I think is especially relevant to, you know, is especially relevant to, you know, is especially relevant to, you know, those of us in in leadership would be those of us in in leadership would be those of us in in leadership would be the pattern of offense. Uh the pattern of offense. Uh the pattern of offense. Uh one of the things I I learned about the one of the things I I learned about the one of the things I I learned about the pattern like this thought pattern of pattern like this thought pattern of pattern like this thought pattern of being easily offended is that being being easily offended is that being being easily offended is that being offended triggers like in your brain offended triggers like in your brain offended triggers like in your brain uh like dopamine, cortisol, um oxytocin.

uh like dopamine, cortisol, um oxytocin. uh like dopamine, cortisol, um oxytocin. It So, there's this weird It So, there's this weird It So, there's this weird um ironic um ironic um ironic a addiction to being offended. Like a addiction to being offended. Like a addiction to being offended. Like there's something happening in your there's something happening in your there's something happening in your brain when you get offended that you brain when you get offended that you brain when you get offended that you like nobody wants You mean to be What do like nobody wants You mean to be What do like nobody wants You mean to be What do you mean addiction? you mean addiction? you mean addiction? like you don't need to be offended? like you don't need to be offended? like you don't need to be offended? Well, that it it triggers some of those Well, that it it triggers some of those Well, that it it triggers some of those chemicals in your brain. Like when you chemicals in your brain. Like when you chemicals in your brain. Like when you get offended, think in terms of like if get offended, think in terms of like if get offended, think in terms of like if you take it to the extreme if you're in you take it to the extreme if you're in you take it to the extreme if you're in a fight, you know, those those your a fight, you know, those those your a fight, you know, those those your adrenaline kicks in and that that adrenaline kicks in and that that adrenaline kicks in and that that there's something about that that is there's something about that that is there's something about that that is addictive. And so, there when you get addictive. And so, there when you get addictive. And so, there when you get offended, nobody says, "Oh, I want to be offended, nobody says, "Oh, I want to be offended, nobody says, "Oh, I want to be offended." But there's something about offended." But there's something about offended." But there's something about us that is drawn to offense because, you us that is drawn to offense because, you us that is drawn to offense because, you know, we feel alive and suddenly I can know, we feel alive and suddenly I can know, we feel alive and suddenly I can you know, you know, you know, you know, I have something to blame and you know, I have something to blame and you know, I have something to blame and I I I so I I recognize within me and you know, so I I recognize within me and you know, so I I recognize within me and you know, within I think a lot of leaders is you within I think a lot of leaders is you within I think a lot of leaders is you know, there is um know, there is um know, there is um there's all there's the potential to there's all there's the potential to there's all there's the potential to take things personally a lot. Yeah. And take things personally a lot. Yeah. And take things personally a lot. Yeah. And how we how we receive people taking our how we how we receive people taking our how we how we receive people taking our thoughts captive um when that initial thoughts captive um when that initial thoughts captive um when that initial offense happens um is so important but offense happens um is so important but offense happens um is so important but it can be you know, that can be it can be you know, that can be it can be you know, that can be difficult to do.

difficult to do. difficult to do. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. What do you do when you feel What do you do when you feel What do you do when you feel like you've been offended? Well, I let like you've been offended? Well, I let like you've been offended? Well, I let me give you a couple things. I me give you a couple things. I me give you a couple things. I you you men- you mentioned Ashley, our you you men- you mentioned Ashley, our you you men- you mentioned Ashley, our friend Ashley Aldridge a few minutes friend Ashley Aldridge a few minutes friend Ashley Aldridge a few minutes ago. You know, so he and I try to have a ago. You know, so he and I try to have a ago. You know, so he and I try to have a weekly phone call. weekly phone call. weekly phone call. And one of the things that we'll do in And one of the things that we'll do in And one of the things that we'll do in that weekly phone call, we we have some that weekly phone call, we we have some that weekly phone call, we we have some questions that we work through, some questions that we work through, some questions that we work through, some accountability questions. accountability questions. accountability questions. But one of the things we'll do in that But one of the things we'll do in that But one of the things we'll do in that phone call is we'll tell each other phone call is we'll tell each other phone call is we'll tell each other this. this. this. And there is something about you know, And there is something about you know, And there is something about you know, telling someone else how someone telling someone else how someone telling someone else how someone offended you that makes you realize offended you that makes you realize offended you that makes you realize I shouldn't have been offended by that. I shouldn't have been offended by that. I shouldn't have been offended by that. You know, and and by the way, there's You know, and and by the way, there's You know, and and by the way, there's something about telling him something about telling him something about telling him that that that where where especially if it's very real where where especially if it's very real where where especially if it's very real or that hurt is you know, I don't want or that hurt is you know, I don't want or that hurt is you know, I don't want to minimize it. He he gets it, he to minimize it. He he gets it, he to minimize it. He he gets it, he understands it, he knows what that's understands it, he knows what that's understands it, he knows what that's like. And so being able to say, "Hey, like. And so being able to say, "Hey, like. And so being able to say, "Hey, this was really hard because you know, this was really hard because you know, this was really hard because you know, the these people you know, left the the these people you know, left the the these people you know, left the church and they were I really cared church and they were I really cared church and they were I really cared about them and uh about them and uh about them and uh and and then being pushed on that to and and then being pushed on that to and and then being pushed on that to recognize that them leaving the church recognize that them leaving the church recognize that them leaving the church feels offensive to me, makes me angry feels offensive to me, makes me angry feels offensive to me, makes me angry but not really. It makes me sad. You but not really. It makes me sad. You but not really. It makes me sad. You know, and saying it to him and sharing know, and saying it to him and sharing know, and saying it to him and sharing that with him helps me recognize that that with him helps me recognize that that with him helps me recognize that even though it feels like an offense, even though it feels like an offense, even though it feels like an offense, it's it's it's it's it's really makes me it's it's it's it's it's really makes me it's it's it's it's it's really makes me makes me sad. So, processing that with makes me sad. So, processing that with makes me sad. So, processing that with somebody somebody somebody that can that can that can you know, give you perspective is you know, give you perspective is you know, give you perspective is helpful.

helpful. helpful. Uh the other thing I think is a Uh the other thing I think is a Uh the other thing I think is a challenge if you're challenge if you're challenge if you're you know, under the spotlight and you know, under the spotlight and you know, under the spotlight and hearing from people that don't hearing from people that don't hearing from people that don't necessarily know you. I don't know who necessarily know you. I don't know who necessarily know you. I don't know who this was. I saw this uh this was. I saw this uh this was. I saw this uh you know, where a person said you know, where a person said you know, where a person said I wish I could remember the source, but I wish I could remember the source, but I wish I could remember the source, but they said they said they said you know, if you have a problem with me, you know, if you have a problem with me, you know, if you have a problem with me, call me. call me. call me. If you don't have my number, then you If you don't have my number, then you If you don't have my number, then you don't have a problem with me. don't have a problem with me. don't have a problem with me. In other words, in other words, like you In other words, in other words, like you In other words, in other words, like you don't know me well enough you don't you don't know me well enough you don't you don't know me well enough you don't you don't know me well enough to be this don't know me well enough to be this don't know me well enough to be this upset with me. Why would you be upset? upset with me. Why would you be upset? upset with me. Why would you be upset? And I think you know, in when you're in And I think you know, in when you're in And I think you know, in when you're in the spotlight a little bit, there's a a the spotlight a little bit, there's a a the spotlight a little bit, there's a a lot of that dynamic. I I got a a really lot of that dynamic. I I got a a really lot of that dynamic. I I got a a really harsh email from a church member harsh email from a church member harsh email from a church member a few years ago, somebody I didn't know a few years ago, somebody I didn't know a few years ago, somebody I didn't know personally. personally. personally. Uh Uh Uh it's very critical. And when I get it's very critical. And when I get it's very critical. And when I get something like that, I'll try to call something like that, I'll try to call something like that, I'll try to call them directly. them directly. them directly. Um and and so I I looked up his phone Um and and so I I looked up his phone Um and and so I I looked up his phone number, you know, called him from the number, you know, called him from the number, you know, called him from the church phone. church phone. church phone. And and when he answered And and when he answered And and when he answered you know, I was pretty fired up. I you know, I was pretty fired up. I you know, I was pretty fired up. I probably should have waited a day to do probably should have waited a day to do probably should have waited a day to do it and I didn't. And it and I didn't. And it and I didn't. And and when he answered, he he asked he saw and when he answered, he he asked he saw and when he answered, he he asked he saw he must have saw it was from the church, he must have saw it was from the church, he must have saw it was from the church, right? And he said to me, he said, are right? And he said to me, he said, are right? And he said to me, he said, are you calling are you calling about my you calling are you calling about my you calling are you calling about my son?

son? son? And I could hear in his voice there And I could hear in his voice there And I could hear in his voice there you know, there was a story there. I you know, there was a story there. I you know, there was a story there. I could hear the the hurt and the could hear the the hurt and the could hear the the hurt and the brokenness. And I you know, I brokenness. And I you know, I brokenness. And I you know, I I almost immediately my heart shifted in I almost immediately my heart shifted in I almost immediately my heart shifted in that conversation. And I said, hey, you that conversation. And I said, hey, you that conversation. And I said, hey, you know, this is Kyle from the church. I I know, this is Kyle from the church. I I know, this is Kyle from the church. I I was actually calling to talk to you was actually calling to talk to you was actually calling to talk to you about the email you sent me, but first about the email you sent me, but first about the email you sent me, but first update me on your son. What's going on update me on your son. What's going on update me on your son. What's going on with your son? with your son? with your son? And he said, well, the the the hospital And he said, well, the the the hospital And he said, well, the the the hospital he was taken to after the overdose is he was taken to after the overdose is he was taken to after the overdose is telling us he needs to be transferred to telling us he needs to be transferred to telling us he needs to be transferred to an inpatient facility. We don't know an inpatient facility. We don't know an inpatient facility. We don't know where to send him. We don't have money where to send him. We don't have money where to send him. We don't have money to send him anywhere. to send him anywhere. to send him anywhere. And um in that moment, like so much of And um in that moment, like so much of And um in that moment, like so much of my my my self-righteous offense self-righteous offense self-righteous offense you know, just kind of you know, just you know, just kind of you know, just you know, just kind of you know, just kind of evaporated, right? And kind of evaporated, right? And kind of evaporated, right? And um um um and and I it was a it was kind of a and and I it was a it was kind of a and and I it was a it was kind of a breakthrough moment for me on taking my breakthrough moment for me on taking my breakthrough moment for me on taking my thoughts captive because I recognized thoughts captive because I recognized thoughts captive because I recognized God had given me a glimpse into that God had given me a glimpse into that God had given me a glimpse into that side of the story and there's always side of the story and there's always side of the story and there's always that side of the story even if I don't that side of the story even if I don't that side of the story even if I don't get to hear it. And and so when I when I get to hear it. And and so when I when I get to hear it. And and so when I when I feel feel feel offended and I'm kind of caught up in offended and I'm kind of caught up in offended and I'm kind of caught up in that pattern, what helps me break that that pattern, what helps me break that that pattern, what helps me break that cycle is to stop and think of I I cycle is to stop and think of I I cycle is to stop and think of I I remember that story and I remember that story and I remember that story and I I think to myself I think to myself I think to myself okay, this person has that type of thing okay, this person has that type of thing okay, this person has that type of thing in their life, right? Like it it may not in their life, right? Like it it may not in their life, right? Like it it may not be as dramatic, it may not be as be as dramatic, it may not be as be as dramatic, it may not be as obvious, they might not even be aware of obvious, they might not even be aware of obvious, they might not even be aware of it, but but it's there and God give me a it, but but it's there and God give me a it, but but it's there and God give me a pastor's heart, you know, for for this pastor's heart, you know, for for this pastor's heart, you know, for for this person. Help me to see past the offense person. Help me to see past the offense person. Help me to see past the offense and understand it.

and understand it. and understand it. Uh and and so to me that's Uh and and so to me that's Uh and and so to me that's that's the taking your thought captive that's the taking your thought captive that's the taking your thought captive process that neuroscientists call it the process that neuroscientists call it the process that neuroscientists call it the cognitive reappraisal where you identify cognitive reappraisal where you identify cognitive reappraisal where you identify something and you say, okay, I'm going something and you say, okay, I'm going something and you say, okay, I'm going to to to acknowledge this I'm not going to just acknowledge this I'm not going to just acknowledge this I'm not going to just say don't feel that way. I'm going to say don't feel that way. I'm going to say don't feel that way. I'm going to intentionally replace it with something intentionally replace it with something intentionally replace it with something else, else, else, in this case compassion. in this case compassion. in this case compassion. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You know, taking your thoughts captive You know, taking your thoughts captive You know, taking your thoughts captive means you have to also take means you have to also take means you have to also take responsibility for things you've done responsibility for things you've done responsibility for things you've done and said. What have been one or two of and said. What have been one or two of and said. What have been one or two of the hardest things you've had to admit the hardest things you've had to admit the hardest things you've had to admit or or or confess as a leader? As a leader? Yeah, confess as a leader? As a leader? Yeah, confess as a leader? As a leader? Yeah, or in your life. or in your life. or in your life. Yeah, I list Yeah, let's stick to Yeah, I list Yeah, let's stick to Yeah, I list Yeah, let's stick to leader. Let's stick to leader. leader. Let's stick to leader. leader. Let's stick to leader. Let's stick to leader. Let's stick to leader. Let's stick to leader. Um Um Um I I would say I would say well, I I'll I'll tell you a quick well, I I'll I'll tell you a quick well, I I'll I'll tell you a quick example of this because you know, just example of this because you know, just example of this because you know, just the process of it is probably good. I I the process of it is probably good. I I the process of it is probably good. I I a few years ago um a few years ago um a few years ago um got into an argument with my wife and I, got into an argument with my wife and I, got into an argument with my wife and I, um, I punched a hole in the door of a um, I punched a hole in the door of a um, I punched a hole in the door of a closet.

closet. closet. And, uh, uh, And, uh, uh, And, uh, uh, um, covered that up with a mirror, hoped um, covered that up with a mirror, hoped um, covered that up with a mirror, hoped she would forget about it and that we she would forget about it and that we she would forget about it and that we would never speak of it. Didn't want my would never speak of it. Didn't want my would never speak of it. Didn't want my kids to find out about it. Certainly did kids to find out about it. Certainly did kids to find out about it. Certainly did not want to be sharing it with you. And, not want to be sharing it with you. And, not want to be sharing it with you. And, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, and and covered up with this mirror. and and covered up with this mirror. and and covered up with this mirror. Then the mirror Then the mirror Then the mirror one night fell off the door and broke, one night fell off the door and broke, one night fell off the door and broke, kind of exposed that hole in the door. kind of exposed that hole in the door. kind of exposed that hole in the door. And, And, And, um, um, um, and and I had this conviction because of and and I had this conviction because of and and I had this conviction because of what I was preaching on that weekend, I what I was preaching on that weekend, I what I was preaching on that weekend, I need to share this story. I don't want need to share this story. I don't want need to share this story. I don't want to. to. to. And I I thought to myself, I'm going to And I I thought to myself, I'm going to And I I thought to myself, I'm going to ask my wife for permission. She's going ask my wife for permission. She's going ask my wife for permission. She's going to tell me no and then I can tell God, to tell me no and then I can tell God, to tell me no and then I can tell God, well, I wanted to. But, well, I wanted to. But, well, I wanted to. But, you know, you know, you know, you know, this woman that you gave me you know, this woman that you gave me you know, this woman that you gave me says you says you says you you can't do it. And, uh, you can't do it. And, uh, you can't do it. And, uh, and she said, well, you know, if if you and she said, well, you know, if if you and she said, well, you know, if if you feel like that's what God wants you to feel like that's what God wants you to feel like that's what God wants you to do, then that's what you should do. And, do, then that's what you should do. And, do, then that's what you should do. And, um, and so I I stood up that weekend in um, and so I I stood up that weekend in um, and so I I stood up that weekend in church and, you know, I told that story. church and, you know, I told that story. church and, you know, I told that story. Um, and then afterwards, Um, and then afterwards, Um, and then afterwards, I was out in the lobby and this guy came I was out in the lobby and this guy came I was out in the lobby and this guy came up to me, up to me, up to me, who'd always kind of been a handshake who'd always kind of been a handshake who'd always kind of been a handshake guy, came over, gave me a hug.

guy, came over, gave me a hug. guy, came over, gave me a hug. And, uh, he said, I've got a hole like And, uh, he said, I've got a hole like And, uh, he said, I've got a hole like that in in the wall that in in the wall that in in the wall of my house. He kind of showed of my house. He kind of showed of my house. He kind of showed told me the story. It was a picture told me the story. It was a picture told me the story. It was a picture covering it. covering it. covering it. We talked for a few minutes. I look up We talked for a few minutes. I look up We talked for a few minutes. I look up and there are four or five people in and there are four or five people in and there are four or five people in line, all of same gender, by the way. line, all of same gender, by the way. line, all of same gender, by the way. Just a bunch of men lined up. Just a bunch of men lined up. Just a bunch of men lined up. Uh, and they all have this, you know, Uh, and they all have this, you know, Uh, and they all have this, you know, hole in the wall, hole in the door, hole hole in the wall, hole in the door, hole hole in the wall, hole in the door, hole in the dashboard of their car, which is in the dashboard of their car, which is in the dashboard of their car, which is pretty impressive, actually. They all pretty impressive, actually. They all pretty impressive, actually. They all have these stories of, um, have these stories of, um, have these stories of, um, and and it just helped me recognize, and and it just helped me recognize, and and it just helped me recognize, man, I man, I man, I in ways I wish it wasn't true, Mhm. it in ways I wish it wasn't true, Mhm. it in ways I wish it wasn't true, Mhm. it is contagious. That if you if you share is contagious. That if you if you share is contagious. That if you if you share like the here's some of, you know, like the here's some of, you know, like the here's some of, you know, here's here's some of the things I've here's here's some of the things I've here's here's some of the things I've been struggling with. Uh, and I think been struggling with. Uh, and I think been struggling with. Uh, and I think that's true when it comes to, you know, that's true when it comes to, you know, that's true when it comes to, you know, uh, uh, uh, our thoughts, our insecurities, our our thoughts, our insecurities, our our thoughts, our insecurities, our um um um you know, you know, you know, our struggles. Being able to share that. our struggles. Being able to share that. our struggles. Being able to share that. And to me, the test of vulnerability, by And to me, the test of vulnerability, by And to me, the test of vulnerability, by the way, I don't know where I got this. the way, I don't know where I got this. the way, I don't know where I got this. It's not original, but that it's like a It's not original, but that it's like a It's not original, but that it's like a the vulnerability the vulnerability the vulnerability hangover regret. Like you where after hangover regret. Like you where after hangover regret. Like you where after you share it, you wish you wouldn't you share it, you wish you wouldn't you share it, you wish you wouldn't have. You're like, "Ah, I shouldn't have have. You're like, "Ah, I shouldn't have have. You're like, "Ah, I shouldn't have said that." To me, that you don't you're said that." To me, that you don't you're said that." To me, that you don't you're not really vulnerable unless that's how not really vulnerable unless that's how not really vulnerable unless that's how you feel after you shared it. And you feel after you shared it. And you feel after you shared it. And uh and I think as leaders, you know, uh and I think as leaders, you know, uh and I think as leaders, you know, don't if you share vulnerably and you don't if you share vulnerably and you don't if you share vulnerably and you second-guess it afterwards, it probably second-guess it afterwards, it probably second-guess it afterwards, it probably means you you did it right. It probably means you you did it right. It probably means you you did it right. It probably means that was a good thing to to share.

means that was a good thing to to share. means that was a good thing to to share. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there are some leaders You know, there are some leaders You know, there are some leaders listening who listening who listening who are saying, are saying, are saying, "I think I'd get fired if I shared "I think I'd get fired if I shared "I think I'd get fired if I shared that." Or that." Or that." Or they're really afraid of that kind of they're really afraid of that kind of they're really afraid of that kind of vulnerability. What What would you say vulnerability. What What would you say vulnerability. What What would you say to them? I would say, okay, so I would say, okay, so like this is hard. This is the This like this is hard. This is the This like this is hard. This is the This one's hard for me. one's hard for me. one's hard for me. Um Um Um I had I had a friend I had I had a friend I had I had a friend good really good friend say to me, good really good friend say to me, good really good friend say to me, he said, he said, he said, he said, "I feel like I find out about your struggles I find out about your struggles by reading about them in a book or share by reading about them in a book or share by reading about them in a book or share or listening to one of your sermons." or listening to one of your sermons." or listening to one of your sermons." What's he saying to me? He's saying, What's he saying to me? He's saying, What's he saying to me? He's saying, "Hey, we "Hey, we "Hey, we we get together we get together we get together for breakfast, we sit on your front for breakfast, we sit on your front for breakfast, we sit on your front porch. You don't share those things with porch. You don't share those things with porch. You don't share those things with me, but you you share them on the stage. me, but you you share them on the stage. me, but you you share them on the stage. You put them in a book." You put them in a book." You put them in a book." And what I was confronted with was this And what I was confronted with was this And what I was confronted with was this question of why is it harder for me to question of why is it harder for me to question of why is it harder for me to share it with him share it with him share it with him one-on-one than it is to stand up in one-on-one than it is to stand up in one-on-one than it is to stand up in front of a few thousand people?

front of a few thousand people? front of a few thousand people? And it's because there's something, And it's because there's something, And it's because there's something, you know, that is it's a different kind you know, that is it's a different kind you know, that is it's a different kind of vulnerability when you do that with of vulnerability when you do that with of vulnerability when you do that with with a person on it. So, I don't quite with a person on it. So, I don't quite with a person on it. So, I don't quite buy into the fact that we can't you buy into the fact that we can't you buy into the fact that we can't you know, maybe you can't do it from the know, maybe you can't do it from the know, maybe you can't do it from the stage stage stage at this point. You know, there might be at this point. You know, there might be at this point. You know, there might be some discernment there, but it doesn't some discernment there, but it doesn't some discernment there, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it anywhere. It mean you shouldn't do it anywhere. It mean you shouldn't do it anywhere. It doesn't mean you can't I I mean you know doesn't mean you can't I I mean you know doesn't mean you can't I I mean you know this like when when when you get this like when when when you get this like when when when you get together with other leaders, there are together with other leaders, there are together with other leaders, there are certain things around that table that certain things around that table that certain things around that table that it's so helpful when somebody will be it's so helpful when somebody will be it's so helpful when somebody will be vulnerable and they might not say it in vulnerable and they might not say it in vulnerable and they might not say it in front of their whole church. front of their whole church. front of their whole church. Yeah, somebody's got to go first and it Yeah, somebody's got to go first and it Yeah, somebody's got to go first and it doesn't have to be in front of doesn't have to be in front of doesn't have to be in front of everybody. But, I'll tell you what, if everybody. But, I'll tell you what, if everybody. But, I'll tell you what, if if you do it with, you know, a few if you do it with, you know, a few if you do it with, you know, a few leaders, if you do it with a couple of leaders, if you do it with a couple of leaders, if you do it with a couple of your staff, if you if you with wisdom your staff, if you if you with wisdom your staff, if you if you with wisdom practice that with some of your practice that with some of your practice that with some of your volunteers, it'll start to change the volunteers, it'll start to change the volunteers, it'll start to change the culture in a way that when you stand up culture in a way that when you stand up culture in a way that when you stand up and do it, um it won't be, you know, it and do it, um it won't be, you know, it and do it, um it won't be, you know, it won't be as shocking. But, but I would won't be as shocking. But, but I would won't be as shocking. But, but I would just challenge people and I I mean I I just challenge people and I I mean I I just challenge people and I I mean I I I I I this is the personal journey is I this is the personal journey is I this is the personal journey is I I need to do that with one person, you I need to do that with one person, you I need to do that with one person, you know, before I do with a bunch of people know, before I do with a bunch of people know, before I do with a bunch of people and doing it with that one person is and doing it with that one person is and doing it with that one person is uh it it helps pave the way to do that uh it it helps pave the way to do that uh it it helps pave the way to do that in a way that is good for the community.

in a way that is good for the community. in a way that is good for the community. So, so start with one person, but but So, so start with one person, but but So, so start with one person, but but don't don't just say, "Well, I can't do don't don't just say, "Well, I can't do don't don't just say, "Well, I can't do that and so I'm not going to I'm not that and so I'm not going to I'm not that and so I'm not going to I'm not going to share it." You know, that's so going to share it." You know, that's so going to share it." You know, that's so good. I had a hole-in-the-wall moment good. I had a hole-in-the-wall moment good. I had a hole-in-the-wall moment more recently than I want to admit. Um more recently than I want to admit. Um more recently than I want to admit. Um and it wasn't a hole in the wall, but it and it wasn't a hole in the wall, but it and it wasn't a hole in the wall, but it was something very similar and I haven't was something very similar and I haven't was something very similar and I haven't told the story publicly yet, but told the story publicly yet, but told the story publicly yet, but what was different about this one was my what was different about this one was my what was different about this one was my wife called a friend and I talked to the wife called a friend and I talked to the wife called a friend and I talked to the friend and her husband about it. And friend and her husband about it. And friend and her husband about it. And that is very different in the moment, that is very different in the moment, that is very different in the moment, raw. Yes, it is. Telling a friend raw. Yes, it is. Telling a friend raw. Yes, it is. Telling a friend and the shame and then of course, we and the shame and then of course, we and the shame and then of course, we called my counselor, You know. Yeah. called my counselor, You know. Yeah. called my counselor, You know. Yeah. that kind of thing. that kind of thing. that kind of thing. And And And gosh, it's just it's you're right. gosh, it's just it's you're right. gosh, it's just it's you're right. There's something of being public where There's something of being public where There's something of being public where it's easier to let that sit for 6 it's easier to let that sit for 6 it's easier to let that sit for 6 months, a year, or 5 years. Mhm. That's months, a year, or 5 years. Mhm. That's months, a year, or 5 years. Mhm. That's good. Yeah, that's right. I hadn't good. Yeah, that's right. I hadn't good. Yeah, that's right. I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. thought of that, but you're right. thought of that, but you're right. of a book you're writing or a sermon, of a book you're writing or a sermon, of a book you're writing or a sermon, but but in that moment when the emotions but but in that moment when the emotions but but in that moment when the emotions are still all there are still all there are still all there to invite someone into the confidence of to invite someone into the confidence of to invite someone into the confidence of that, I think that there is so much that, I think that there is so much that, I think that there is so much wisdom in that. And it breaks wisdom in that. And it breaks wisdom in that. And it breaks the cycle of shame. It breaks the cycle the cycle of shame. It breaks the cycle the cycle of shame. It breaks the cycle of That was the first time I've talked of That was the first time I've talked of That was the first time I've talked about that. Um about that. Um about that. Um but the fact that there were friends and but the fact that there were friends and but the fact that there were friends and a couple of people really close to me a couple of people really close to me a couple of people really close to me who were there for us. Yeah. Um who were there for us. Yeah. Um who were there for us. Yeah. Um changes the dynamic. Yes, it does.

changes the dynamic. Yes, it does. changes the dynamic. Yes, it does. Because it's almost like hide Because it's almost like hide Because it's almost like hide and then tell. and then tell. and then tell. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. But what if there's no hiding? Oh, I But what if there's no hiding? Oh, I But what if there's no hiding? Oh, I think you're onto I had not thought of think you're onto I had not thought of think you're onto I had not thought of it, but you're right. it, but you're right. it, but you're right. No, but you you you tell me No, but you you you tell me No, but you you you tell me into the mess, inviting somebody into it into the mess, inviting somebody into it into the mess, inviting somebody into it when before it's resolved or this is the when before it's resolved or this is the when before it's resolved or this is the way you know, I used to be you know, way you know, I used to be you know, way you know, I used to be you know, inviting somebody into inviting somebody into inviting somebody into at 2:00, but it's 3:30 now, so you know. at 2:00, but it's 3:30 now, so you know. at 2:00, but it's 3:30 now, so you know. Yeah. Yeah, years ago, don't you mean Yeah. Yeah, years ago, don't you mean Yeah. Yeah, years ago, don't you mean yesterday? yesterday? yesterday? But I think that's right. Like like But I think that's right. Like like But I think that's right. Like like finding the courage to do that with finding the courage to do that with finding the courage to do that with someone in that moment someone in that moment someone in that moment is that's really good challenge. is that's really good challenge. is that's really good challenge. Yeah, or even if it's the next day or Yeah, or even if it's the next day or Yeah, or even if it's the next day or something like that, Kyle. Man, this is something like that, Kyle. Man, this is something like that, Kyle. Man, this is this is so this is so this is so helpful. You helpful. You helpful. You um um um talk about winning the morning. talk about winning the morning. talk about winning the morning. What do you do differently now to win What do you do differently now to win What do you do differently now to win the morning? the morning? the morning? Well, it one of the practical things Well, it one of the practical things Well, it one of the practical things that I'm doing is I you know, it's the that I'm doing is I you know, it's the that I'm doing is I you know, it's the two two of my big takeaways from two two of my big takeaways from two two of my big takeaways from researching and studying this both in researching and studying this both in researching and studying this both in scripture scripture scripture and then and then and then scientifically is to recognize there's scientifically is to recognize there's scientifically is to recognize there's something about the morning time and something about the morning time and something about the morning time and here's the other just real practical here's the other just real practical here's the other just real practical thing is there's something about saying thing is there's something about saying thing is there's something about saying certain things out loud certain things out loud certain things out loud which is such a biblical which is such a biblical which is such a biblical Like Like Like kind of I mean yes like yes declarations kind of I mean yes like yes declarations kind of I mean yes like yes declarations but I think there's part of us that says but I think there's part of us that says but I think there's part of us that says well I don't well I don't well I don't it can feel a little it can feel a little it can feel a little you know new age or manifest a you know new age or manifest a you know new age or manifest a manifesting something that's not what I manifesting something that's not what I manifesting something that's not what I mean I mean like what God what God did mean I mean like what God what God did mean I mean like what God what God did with his people in the Old Testament

with his people in the Old Testament with his people in the Old Testament where they were to speak his word out where they were to speak his word out where they were to speak his word out loud at certain times of the day. And loud at certain times of the day. And loud at certain times of the day. And you know it it it was you know it it it was you know it it it was it was to be out loud and there's just it was to be out loud and there's just it was to be out loud and there's just like so it turns out there's science like so it turns out there's science like so it turns out there's science behind this that you're engaging behind this that you're engaging behind this that you're engaging different regions of your brain like different regions of your brain like different regions of your brain like when my brain hears me when my brain hears me when my brain hears me say something out loud it receives it say something out loud it receives it say something out loud it receives it differently than when I just think that differently than when I just think that differently than when I just think that thought in my head which I I didn't thought in my head which I I didn't thought in my head which I I didn't understand that or understand that or understand that or you know that there's this you know that there's this you know that there's this you know reason why the Bible would put you know reason why the Bible would put you know reason why the Bible would put the emphasis on hey you know read God's the emphasis on hey you know read God's the emphasis on hey you know read God's word out loud public reading of word out loud public reading of word out loud public reading of scripture you know pray these prayers scripture you know pray these prayers scripture you know pray these prayers out loud and so the the two things that out loud and so the the two things that out loud and so the the two things that I I feel like I tangibly shifted on is I I feel like I tangibly shifted on is I I feel like I tangibly shifted on is you know you know you know having the morning being intentional having the morning being intentional having the morning being intentional with morning time and then just instead with morning time and then just instead with morning time and then just instead of just of just of just reading scripture instead of just reading scripture instead of just reading scripture instead of just praying prayers like I do it out loud praying prayers like I do it out loud praying prayers like I do it out loud now I'll sit on my front porch or in the now I'll sit on my front porch or in the now I'll sit on my front porch or in the car or in the shower and and I try to car or in the shower and and I try to car or in the shower and and I try to say these things speak God's word out say these things speak God's word out say these things speak God's word out loud and so I'm I'm just convinced loud and so I'm I'm just convinced loud and so I'm I'm just convinced there's some some power that God has there's some some power that God has there's some some power that God has made us in such a way that when we speak made us in such a way that when we speak made us in such a way that when we speak his word out loud that it engages our his word out loud that it engages our his word out loud that it engages our brain differently that there's more brain differently that there's more brain differently that there's more power to it and so you know I would just power to it and so you know I would just power to it and so you know I would just challenge people who think that well challenge people who think that well challenge people who think that well that's weird okay well just try it you that's weird okay well just try it you that's weird okay well just try it you know just try it and see if know just try it and see if know just try it and see if there's an impact to it because I that there's an impact to it because I that there's an impact to it because I that certainly has been true for me.

certainly has been true for me. certainly has been true for me. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. No that's a really you know it's funny No that's a really you know it's funny No that's a really you know it's funny I'm packing for this trip and I've I've I'm packing for this trip and I've I've I'm packing for this trip and I've I've got Craig Groeschel's book with me got Craig Groeschel's book with me got Craig Groeschel's book with me winning the war in your mind which I winning the war in your mind which I winning the war in your mind which I listened to a few years ago, but I want listened to a few years ago, but I want listened to a few years ago, but I want to really work through it. I think to really work through it. I think to really work through it. I think that's something that that Craig talks that's something that that Craig talks that's something that that Craig talks about, too, just actually stating it out about, too, just actually stating it out about, too, just actually stating it out loud. Mhm. Uh and you're right. We're loud. Mhm. Uh and you're right. We're loud. Mhm. Uh and you're right. We're like I think silent prayer is a pretty like I think silent prayer is a pretty like I think silent prayer is a pretty recent invention. Almost everybody recent invention. Almost everybody recent invention. Almost everybody Yeah. Talked about it out loud for a Yeah. Talked about it out loud for a Yeah. Talked about it out loud for a long time. Um any other long time. Um any other long time. Um any other any other disciplines, habits, things any other disciplines, habits, things any other disciplines, habits, things that you would recommend that would help that you would recommend that would help that you would recommend that would help us take our thoughts captive? us take our thoughts captive? us take our thoughts captive? You know, I didn't talk about this much You know, I didn't talk about this much You know, I didn't talk about this much in the book, book, but I I am convinced in the book, book, but I I am convinced in the book, book, but I I am convinced that you know, that you know, that you know, so much of it is so much of it is so much of it is should be rooted in gratitude. should be rooted in gratitude. should be rooted in gratitude. You know, that there is something about You know, that there is something about You know, that there is something about a grateful leader that a grateful leader that a grateful leader that is really contagious. And is really contagious. And is really contagious. And so, taking my thought it can be a lot of so, taking my thought it can be a lot of so, taking my thought it can be a lot of different areas where I'm trying to different areas where I'm trying to different areas where I'm trying to whether that's the like the pattern of, whether that's the like the pattern of, whether that's the like the pattern of, you know, insecurity or distraction or you know, insecurity or distraction or you know, insecurity or distraction or or pleasure or despair, but gratitude, or pleasure or despair, but gratitude, or pleasure or despair, but gratitude, grateful thoughts are a really grateful thoughts are a really grateful thoughts are a really power-powerful antidote to to breaking power-powerful antidote to to breaking power-powerful antidote to to breaking these different patterns. And so, I these different patterns. And so, I these different patterns. And so, I would say would say would say you know, just learning to practice you know, just learning to practice you know, just learning to practice grateful thinking is is much more grateful thinking is is much more grateful thinking is is much more powerful than than what we might powerful than than what we might powerful than than what we might realize.

realize. realize. So, I've worked to be So, I've worked to be So, I've worked to be you know, just more intentional you know, just more intentional you know, just more intentional with that. And I've I've been encouraged with that. And I've I've been encouraged with that. And I've I've been encouraged to see that there's there's something to see that there's there's something to see that there's there's something about grateful prayers that break down, about grateful prayers that break down, about grateful prayers that break down, you know, these different strongholds in you know, these different strongholds in you know, these different strongholds in our lives. our lives. our lives. So, So, So, I think the emphasis on gratitude is a I think the emphasis on gratitude is a I think the emphasis on gratitude is a great place to start. great place to start. great place to start. I need more of that. I kept a gratitude I need more of that. I kept a gratitude I need more of that. I kept a gratitude journal for a few years, and I think I journal for a few years, and I think I journal for a few years, and I think I need to bring it back. need to bring it back. need to bring it back. Yeah. Uh particularly in a trying Yeah. Uh particularly in a trying Yeah. Uh particularly in a trying season. Kyle, the book is called Every season. Kyle, the book is called Every season. Kyle, the book is called Every Thought Captive. It's out, available Thought Captive. It's out, available Thought Captive. It's out, available everywhere. Um man, I love your everywhere. Um man, I love your everywhere. Um man, I love your leadership. If people want to track with leadership. If people want to track with leadership. If people want to track with you online, where's a good place to find you online, where's a good place to find you online, where's a good place to find you these days? you these days? you these days? You know, uh I suppose the places you You know, uh I suppose the places you You know, uh I suppose the places you would expect. Instagram, social media, would expect. Instagram, social media, would expect. Instagram, social media, uh our Facebook would be great. uh our Facebook would be great. uh our Facebook would be great. Okay. Awesome. Kyle, till next time. Okay. Awesome. Kyle, till next time. Okay. Awesome. Kyle, till next time. Thank you. Thanks, brother. Great to Thank you. Thanks, brother. Great to Thank you. Thanks, brother. Great to visit with you.