DISCOVER the Truth About High Conversion Growth Churches

if the guy next to you had his hands up if the guy next to you had his hands up he was crying he's really into it and he was crying he's really into it and he was crying he's really into it and here's why and and we don't hate Lambs here's why and and we don't hate Lambs here's why and and we don't hate Lambs we're not singing about killing Lambs we're not singing about killing Lambs we're not singing about killing Lambs all the time because we hate Lambs let all the time because we hate Lambs let all the time because we hate Lambs let us just connect some things for you us just connect some things for you us just connect some things for you about what some of this Insider language about what some of this Insider language about what some of this Insider language means and usually it's as simple as that means and usually it's as simple as that means and usually it's as simple as that and then you know people understand and then you know people understand and then you know people understand welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership welcome to the K newoff leadership podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you podcast on YouTube I'm so glad you joined us today we're going to dig into joined us today we're going to dig into joined us today we're going to dig into one of the most well-kept secrets about one of the most well-kept secrets about one of the most well-kept secrets about church growth did you know that 80 to church growth did you know that 80 to church growth did you know that 80 to 95% of church growth is actually 95% of church growth is actually 95% of church growth is actually transfer growth well that's a real transfer growth well that's a real transfer growth well that's a real Challenge and we found a couple of Challenge and we found a couple of Challenge and we found a couple of pastors who are actually reaching pastors who are actually reaching pastors who are actually reaching unchurched people they're one of the unchurched people they're one of the unchurched people they're one of the three to 5% of American churches that three to 5% of American churches that three to 5% of American churches that are actually High conversion Church are actually High conversion Church are actually High conversion Church growth churches Joby Martin Mike growth churches Joby Martin Mike growth churches Joby Martin Mike householder join us I think you're going householder join us I think you're going householder join us I think you're going to love this conversation hey this to love this conversation hey this to love this conversation hey this episode is part of a five-part series on episode is part of a five-part series on episode is part of a five-part series on the five disruptive Church trends that the five disruptive Church trends that the five disruptive Church trends that will rule 2025 to go along with the will rule 2025 to go along with the will rule 2025 to go along with the series I've got a free leader guide series I've got a free leader guide series I've got a free leader guide which includes all five Trends in detail which includes all five Trends in detail which includes all five Trends in detail you can download it for free at 2025 you can download it for free at 2025 you can download it for free at 2025 church trends.com again that's 2025 church trends.com again that's 2025 church trends.com again that's 2025 church trends.com now a word from church trends.com now a word from church trends.com now a word from today's sponsors and then we will dive today's sponsors and then we will dive today's sponsors and then we will dive into the conversation this episode is into the conversation this episode is into the conversation this episode is brought to you by the pourover as a brought to you by the pourover as a brought to you by the pourover as a leader as you know staying informed on leader as you know staying informed on leader as you know staying informed on current events is really important but current events is really important but current events is really important but the Relentless news cycle can be the Relentless news cycle can be the Relentless news cycle can be completely overwhelming and that's where completely overwhelming and that's where completely overwhelming and that's where the pourover comes in it's not just the pourover comes in it's not just the pourover comes in it's not just another news source the pourover another news source the pourover another news source the pourover delivers concise politically neutral

delivers concise politically neutral delivers concise politically neutral news summaries three times a week paired news summaries three times a week paired news summaries three times a week paired with Christ centered biblical reminders with Christ centered biblical reminders with Christ centered biblical reminders so you can stand formed without the so you can stand formed without the so you can stand formed without the chaos without the bias and without the chaos without the bias and without the chaos without the bias and without the drama in a culture of noise and drama in a culture of noise and drama in a culture of noise and clickbait the PO over stands out by clickbait the PO over stands out by clickbait the PO over stands out by simply reporting unbiased facts and simply reporting unbiased facts and simply reporting unbiased facts and repeatedly turning attention back to repeatedly turning attention back to repeatedly turning attention back to Christ with eternally minded Christ with eternally minded Christ with eternally minded perspectives after each story so join perspectives after each story so join perspectives after each story so join over a million others who rely on the over a million others who rely on the over a million others who rely on the poor over for calm Christ first news poor over for calm Christ first news poor over for calm Christ first news listen to the pour over today podcast listen to the pour over today podcast listen to the pour over today podcast wherever you get your podcasts this wherever you get your podcasts this wherever you get your podcasts this episode is brought to you by Thrive so episode is brought to you by Thrive so episode is brought to you by Thrive so what makes a leader Unforgettable well what makes a leader Unforgettable well what makes a leader Unforgettable well it's not their title it's not their it's not their title it's not their it's not their title it's not their talent it's actually their character talent it's actually their character talent it's actually their character traits and in a free 60-minute webinar traits and in a free 60-minute webinar traits and in a free 60-minute webinar Mark Clark who's a pastor of Bayside Mark Clark who's a pastor of Bayside Mark Clark who's a pastor of Bayside Church will share the five essential Church will share the five essential Church will share the five essential traits that define truly great leaders traits that define truly great leaders traits that define truly great leaders so whether you're leading a church a so whether you're leading a church a so whether you're leading a church a team or your family you'll walk away team or your family you'll walk away team or your family you'll walk away with actionable strategies that Inspire with actionable strategies that Inspire with actionable strategies that Inspire confidence build trust and create confidence build trust and create confidence build trust and create lasting Legacy and impact don't miss lasting Legacy and impact don't miss lasting Legacy and impact don't miss this opportunity to learn from one of this opportunity to learn from one of this opportunity to learn from one of the most respected voices in leadership the most respected voices in leadership the most respected voices in leadership and preaching spots are limited reserve and preaching spots are limited reserve and preaching spots are limited reserve yours now at Thrive conference.org Joby yours now at Thrive conference.org Joby yours now at Thrive conference.org Joby and Mike really great to have you on the and Mike really great to have you on the and Mike really great to have you on the podcast yeah thanks for having us yeah podcast yeah thanks for having us yeah podcast yeah thanks for having us yeah thanks Carrie hi Joby good good to be thanks Carrie hi Joby good good to be thanks Carrie hi Joby good good to be here yeah so in a world where here yeah so in a world where here yeah so in a world where traditional religious institutions are traditional religious institutions are traditional religious institutions are really struggling a lot really struggling a lot really struggling a lot your churches have thrived right like

your churches have thrived right like your churches have thrived right like you think about most churches being in you think about most churches being in you think about most churches being in Decline what do you think the biggest Decline what do you think the biggest Decline what do you think the biggest misconception is about church growth misconception is about church growth misconception is about church growth today why don't we start there and today why don't we start there and today why don't we start there and either of you can go either of you can go either of you can go first I'll jump in I think that's a first I'll jump in I think that's a first I'll jump in I think that's a great question Carrie I think great question Carrie I think great question Carrie I think maybe there there's a lot of places we maybe there there's a lot of places we maybe there there's a lot of places we could go maybe the biggest misconception could go maybe the biggest misconception could go maybe the biggest misconception or maybe it's the one that just jumps to or maybe it's the one that just jumps to or maybe it's the one that just jumps to mind first is this this myth that a mind first is this this myth that a mind first is this this myth that a growing church is all about what we do growing church is all about what we do growing church is all about what we do our programs the the the style the the our programs the the the style the the our programs the the the style the the the the the image the brand um what the the the image the brand um what the the the image the brand um what Christian Schwarz in an old book called Christian Schwarz in an old book called Christian Schwarz in an old book called natural Church development called the natural Church development called the natural Church development called the technocratic approach I was just technocratic approach I was just technocratic approach I was just thinking about that book recently nobody thinking about that book recently nobody thinking about that book recently nobody talks about that book know it was all talks about that book know it was all talks about that book know it was all the rage back in the day but yeah in the the rage back in the day but yeah in the the rage back in the day but yeah in the 90s was it I still think it's got 90s was it I still think it's got 90s was it I still think it's got something for us so you know we spend something for us so you know we spend something for us so you know we spend more time than we should focusing on on more time than we should focusing on on more time than we should focusing on on on the things that maybe aren't the main on the things that maybe aren't the main on the things that maybe aren't the main things and I'm not saying programs don't things and I'm not saying programs don't things and I'm not saying programs don't matter the way we do things of course it matter the way we do things of course it matter the way we do things of course it matters uh but I think it I think still matters uh but I think it I think still matters uh but I think it I think still it has to be deeper than that um it it it has to be deeper than that um it it it has to be deeper than that um it it has to go beyond you know skinny jeans has to go beyond you know skinny jeans has to go beyond you know skinny jeans and hoodies for the preacher and and you and hoodies for the preacher and and you and hoodies for the preacher and and you know a big light show for this for the know a big light show for this for the know a big light show for this for the service there has to be something beyond service there has to be something beyond service there has to be something beyond that that I think if it's just the that that I think if it's just the that that I think if it's just the surface stuff then folks are going to surface stuff then folks are going to surface stuff then folks are going to they're going to smell that and and when they're going to smell that and and when they're going to smell that and and when they do it's it's going to be repulsive they do it's it's going to be repulsive they do it's it's going to be repulsive so from the outside looking in I think

so from the outside looking in I think so from the outside looking in I think that would be a misconception is that it that would be a misconception is that it that would be a misconception is that it it's really about us when ultimately it's really about us when ultimately it's really about us when ultimately it's really about the holy spirit it's a it's really about the holy spirit it's a it's really about the holy spirit it's a God thing JY how about you what do you God thing JY how about you what do you God thing JY how about you what do you think a big misconception about church think a big misconception about church think a big misconception about church growth is I think there's a lot I think growth is I think there's a lot I think growth is I think there's a lot I think um the moment you begin to think you um the moment you begin to think you um the moment you begin to think you could evaluate the health of a church could evaluate the health of a church could evaluate the health of a church based on the size of its parking lot I based on the size of its parking lot I based on the size of its parking lot I think you're making some really bad think you're making some really bad think you're making some really bad assumptions either way right e you're assumptions either way right e you're assumptions either way right e you're assuming the hand of God is upon that assuming the hand of God is upon that assuming the hand of God is upon that place or they must water thing down place or they must water thing down place or they must water thing down because there's a lot of folks there I because there's a lot of folks there I because there's a lot of folks there I think one of the Dangerous Ones is a lot think one of the Dangerous Ones is a lot think one of the Dangerous Ones is a lot of people assume upon the intentions of of people assume upon the intentions of of people assume upon the intentions of the lead Pastor like all he cares about the lead Pastor like all he cares about the lead Pastor like all he cares about is fill in the blank um man listen when is fill in the blank um man listen when is fill in the blank um man listen when I was 19 years old I said yes to God I was 19 years old I said yes to God I was 19 years old I said yes to God because I feel like he made me teach the because I feel like he made me teach the because I feel like he made me teach the Bible I didn't want to do this and I Bible I didn't want to do this and I Bible I didn't want to do this and I thought I'd be a youth pastor for the thought I'd be a youth pastor for the thought I'd be a youth pastor for the rest of my life because that's where rest of my life because that's where rest of my life because that's where most people get saved so I thought most people get saved so I thought most people get saved so I thought that's where the That's Where It's At in that's where the That's Where It's At in that's where the That's Where It's At in the Kingdom the Kingdom the Kingdom and one thing led to another and I find and one thing led to another and I find and one thing led to another and I find myself as the lead pastor of this church myself as the lead pastor of this church myself as the lead pastor of this church and I had no idea it was going to turn and I had no idea it was going to turn and I had no idea it was going to turn into what it has and I don't feel like into what it has and I don't feel like into what it has and I don't feel like my intentions were any different than my intentions were any different than my intentions were any different than when I said yes uh and didn't go to when I said yes uh and didn't go to when I said yes uh and didn't go to medical school and went to Seminary medical school and went to Seminary medical school and went to Seminary instead and so I can't really explain instead and so I can't really explain instead and so I can't really explain why God has breathed on what we're doing why God has breathed on what we're doing why God has breathed on what we're doing here because I know a lot of people here because I know a lot of people here because I know a lot of people preach better than I do and pray more preach better than I do and pray more preach better than I do and pray more than I do and know the Bible better than than I do and know the Bible better than than I do and know the Bible better than I do and so but I've seen a lot of that I do and so but I've seen a lot of that I do and so but I've seen a lot of that lately lately lately especially online where people just especially online where people just especially online where people just assume if you Pastor a large church then

assume if you Pastor a large church then assume if you Pastor a large church then you have some kind of carnal motivations you have some kind of carnal motivations you have some kind of carnal motivations about money and fame one of the coolest about money and fame one of the coolest about money and fame one of the coolest things about pastoring a really big things about pastoring a really big things about pastoring a really big church is i' I know all the dudes now church is i' I know all the dudes now church is i' I know all the dudes now like all the guys that I used to just be like all the guys that I used to just be like all the guys that I used to just be big fans of now they're all buddies and big fans of now they're all buddies and big fans of now they're all buddies and you know and what I have found is the you know and what I have found is the you know and what I have found is the opposite to be true some of the godliest opposite to be true some of the godliest opposite to be true some of the godliest people I've ever met in my life are a people I've ever met in my life are a people I've ever met in my life are a bunch of the guests that you have on bunch of the guests that you have on bunch of the guests that you have on this show and so I I think that's a this show and so I I think that's a this show and so I I think that's a really bad assumption really bad assumption really bad assumption I I want to go into that a little bit I I want to go into that a little bit I I want to go into that a little bit because I know a lot of the dudes as because I know a lot of the dudes as because I know a lot of the dudes as well these days and again I used to sit well these days and again I used to sit well these days and again I used to sit in the back row taking notes and now I'm in the back row taking notes and now I'm in the back row taking notes and now I'm still I still pinch myself it's like how still I still pinch myself it's like how still I still pinch myself it's like how am I backstage with some of these folks am I backstage with some of these folks am I backstage with some of these folks and you know I think we can all find the and you know I think we can all find the and you know I think we can all find the exceptions let's let's assume that exceptions let's let's assume that exceptions let's let's assume that there's a minority percentage that had a there's a minority percentage that had a there's a minority percentage that had a scheme all along and it was for scheme all along and it was for scheme all along and it was for self-interest but most of the people I self-interest but most of the people I self-interest but most of the people I know who end up leading large churches know who end up leading large churches know who end up leading large churches or large organizations even large or large organizations even large or large organizations even large companies are the most surprised people companies are the most surprised people companies are the most surprised people this was not I mean they wanted to go this was not I mean they wanted to go this was not I mean they wanted to go reach somebody but they never thought it reach somebody but they never thought it reach somebody but they never thought it would be 5,000 10,000 50,000 one day would be 5,000 10,000 50,000 one day would be 5,000 10,000 50,000 one day they're they're shocked and they didn't they're they're shocked and they didn't they're they're shocked and they didn't even set out to build a platform I mean even set out to build a platform I mean even set out to build a platform I mean you know in our vintage there was no you know in our vintage there was no you know in our vintage there was no platform to be built like how did you platform to be built like how did you platform to be built like how did you even do that right and now they may have even do that right and now they may have even do that right and now they may have a million followers or 100,000 followers a million followers or 100,000 followers a million followers or 100,000 followers but but that was never part of the but but that was never part of the but but that was never part of the design I mean reflect on that in your design I mean reflect on that in your design I mean reflect on that in your own experience you said Joby you never own experience you said Joby you never own experience you said Joby you never wanted to lead a church I was going to wanted to lead a church I was going to wanted to lead a church I was going to be a lawyer Mike did you did you feel a

be a lawyer Mike did you did you feel a be a lawyer Mike did you did you feel a called to Ministry early on not early on called to Ministry early on not early on called to Ministry early on not early on I am a pastor's kid but it was it was I am a pastor's kid but it was it was I am a pastor's kid but it was it was something I pushed away instead of something I pushed away instead of something I pushed away instead of embraced even though maybe others were embraced even though maybe others were embraced even though maybe others were saying you know this is what you'll be saying you know this is what you'll be saying you know this is what you'll be this is what you'll do I started college this is what you'll do I started college this is what you'll do I started college of math major is going to be an engineer of math major is going to be an engineer of math major is going to be an engineer that's where I was headed um I had zero that's where I was headed um I had zero that's where I was headed um I had zero Interest really in that but but like you Interest really in that but but like you Interest really in that but but like you Joby uh Had some life-changing Joby uh Had some life-changing Joby uh Had some life-changing experiences and and then perspective experiences and and then perspective experiences and and then perspective changes and and I and at that point it changes and and I and at that point it changes and and I and at that point it it got to the point where I felt the it got to the point where I felt the it got to the point where I felt the call on a level where it was there's call on a level where it was there's call on a level where it was there's nothing else that I can do this this is nothing else that I can do this this is nothing else that I can do this this is this is where I have to go but the the this is where I have to go but the the this is where I have to go but the the part of it about leading a big church part of it about leading a big church part of it about leading a big church that's just not that was never even in that's just not that was never even in that's just not that was never even in the realm of of Interest or possibility the realm of of Interest or possibility the realm of of Interest or possibility it it it it it still isn't I mean that it it it it it still isn't I mean that it it it it it still isn't I mean that that's honestly uh that's not who that's that's honestly uh that's not who that's that's honestly uh that's not who that's not why I answered the call it wasn't to not why I answered the call it wasn't to not why I answered the call it wasn't to lead a big church it was it was to be a lead a big church it was it was to be a lead a big church it was it was to be a faithful Pastor to try to be um and and faithful Pastor to try to be um and and faithful Pastor to try to be um and and to try to share what I had received from to try to share what I had received from to try to share what I had received from God uh with with those who could be God uh with with those who could be God uh with with those who could be blessed by the same blessed by the same blessed by the same thing you know Carrie it's interesting thing you know Carrie it's interesting thing you know Carrie it's interesting um I mean just a few weeks ago I'm in a um I mean just a few weeks ago I'm in a um I mean just a few weeks ago I'm in a room with I mean I'll name names uh Matt room with I mean I'll name names uh Matt room with I mean I'll name names uh Matt Chandler Ben Stewart Jim Bergen um those Chandler Ben Stewart Jim Bergen um those Chandler Ben Stewart Jim Bergen um those guys right we're all preaching the same guys right we're all preaching the same guys right we're all preaching the same thing and none of them talk about how

thing and none of them talk about how thing and none of them talk about how big their church is like the pastor big their church is like the pastor big their church is like the pastor never talking about guess what we ran on never talking about guess what we ran on never talking about guess what we ran on Easter NE it's being said about them um Easter NE it's being said about them um Easter NE it's being said about them um most of the people that I meet even all most of the people that I meet even all most of the people that I meet even all the like the famous people if I ask them the like the famous people if I ask them the like the famous people if I ask them how's church is going they mostly talk how's church is going they mostly talk how's church is going they mostly talk about individual moments where God about individual moments where God about individual moments where God showed up in a miraculous way they showed up in a miraculous way they showed up in a miraculous way they rarely go oh let me tell you how many rarely go oh let me tell you how many rarely go oh let me tell you how many campuses we have they'll say oh my gosh campuses we have they'll say oh my gosh campuses we have they'll say oh my gosh this this marriage was just saved or I this this marriage was just saved or I this this marriage was just saved or I pray for this guy and God healed him so pray for this guy and God healed him so pray for this guy and God healed him so I feel like it's the same stories I feel like it's the same stories I feel like it's the same stories regardless of what size your church is regardless of what size your church is regardless of what size your church is that the pastors are talking about yeah that the pastors are talking about yeah that the pastors are talking about yeah now again I think there's a lot of now again I think there's a lot of now again I think there's a lot of people that talk about those pastors and people that talk about those pastors and people that talk about those pastors and the numbers but at least that's in my the numbers but at least that's in my the numbers but at least that's in my experience no that that's a really experience no that that's a really experience no that that's a really helpful note and I think you don't know helpful note and I think you don't know helpful note and I think you don't know what it's like until you've walked in what it's like until you've walked in what it's like until you've walked in those shoes either and having hung out those shoes either and having hung out those shoes either and having hung out with with some of those people I I agree with with some of those people I I agree with with some of those people I I agree and there's always a few bad apples 100% and there's always a few bad apples 100% and there's always a few bad apples 100% there is but I think the vast majority there is but I think the vast majority there is but I think the vast majority of people are surprised delighted even of people are surprised delighted even of people are surprised delighted even confused by how we ended up here right confused by how we ended up here right confused by how we ended up here right confusing so you guys have both had an confusing so you guys have both had an confusing so you guys have both had an opportunity to read the 2025 Church opportunity to read the 2025 Church opportunity to read the 2025 Church Trends I put out um what are your Trends I put out um what are your Trends I put out um what are your insights about the current state of insights about the current state of insights about the current state of evangelism in America pardon me with evangelism in America pardon me with evangelism in America pardon me with only 1% of pastors saying that their only 1% of pastors saying that their only 1% of pastors saying that their Church church is very effective at Church church is very effective at Church church is very effective at evangelism let me just say publicly evangelism let me just say publicly evangelism let me just say publicly kudos for the humility like rather than kudos for the humility like rather than kudos for the humility like rather than saying oh we're awesome but there hasn't

saying oh we're awesome but there hasn't saying oh we're awesome but there hasn't been a baptism in three years 99% of been a baptism in three years 99% of been a baptism in three years 99% of pastors saying yeah we're not very good pastors saying yeah we're not very good pastors saying yeah we're not very good at this I think took a lot of humility at this I think took a lot of humility at this I think took a lot of humility to say that what are your thoughts on to say that what are your thoughts on to say that what are your thoughts on the state of evangelism in the the state of evangelism in the the state of evangelism in the US well I I think we got into real US well I I think we got into real US well I I think we got into real trouble when years trouble when years trouble when years ago somewhere along the line at all the ago somewhere along the line at all the ago somewhere along the line at all the conferences I was at and maybe even in conferences I was at and maybe even in conferences I was at and maybe even in seminary we began to divorce seminary we began to divorce seminary we began to divorce discipleship from evangelism as like discipleship from evangelism as like discipleship from evangelism as like evangelism was a thing to get them in evangelism was a thing to get them in evangelism was a thing to get them in the door and then you disciple them the door and then you disciple them the door and then you disciple them because I don't know the person that because I don't know the person that because I don't know the person that reads the Great Commission therefore reads the Great Commission therefore reads the Great Commission therefore going and make disciples and that person going and make disciples and that person going and make disciples and that person thinks that means teaching Jesus people thinks that means teaching Jesus people thinks that means teaching Jesus people more Jesus things everybody understands more Jesus things everybody understands more Jesus things everybody understands that to mean take the gospel to people that to mean take the gospel to people that to mean take the gospel to people who have yet to surrender to Jesus and who have yet to surrender to Jesus and who have yet to surrender to Jesus and so the moment we began to divorce those so the moment we began to divorce those so the moment we began to divorce those two things I think we got into real two things I think we got into real two things I think we got into real trouble and the the moment when we begin trouble and the the moment when we begin trouble and the the moment when we begin to make evangelism just for the to make evangelism just for the to make evangelism just for the professionals as opposed to being doing professionals as opposed to being doing professionals as opposed to being doing the work of an evangelist is just part the work of an evangelist is just part the work of an evangelist is just part of what every disciple is supposed to of what every disciple is supposed to of what every disciple is supposed to do that that was a real do that that was a real do that that was a real problem as well said I I think problem as well said I I think problem as well said I I think evangelism is really hard I I I guess evangelism is really hard I I I guess evangelism is really hard I I I guess I'd be curious what if that same survey I'd be curious what if that same survey I'd be curious what if that same survey was taken a generation ago what what the was taken a generation ago what what the was taken a generation ago what what the percentage would be and maybe it was and percentage would be and maybe it was and percentage would be and maybe it was and maybe I missed that but 1% in on a maybe I missed that but 1% in on a maybe I missed that but 1% in on a certain level it feels about right right certain level it feels about right right certain level it feels about right right because it it it's so look we we live in because it it it's so look we we live in because it it it's so look we we live in a culture and in a world where so often a culture and in a world where so often a culture and in a world where so often there's hostility toward all things there's hostility toward all things there's hostility toward all things Christian towards we we can talk vaguely

Christian towards we we can talk vaguely Christian towards we we can talk vaguely about spirituality but but throw Jesus about spirituality but but throw Jesus about spirituality but but throw Jesus in and we get mocked uh we we get in and we get mocked uh we we get in and we get mocked uh we we get publicly that's the norm uh evangelism publicly that's the norm uh evangelism publicly that's the norm uh evangelism is a straight uphill climb it it cuts is a straight uphill climb it it cuts is a straight uphill climb it it cuts against the grain of what the world against the grain of what the world against the grain of what the world wants to hear from us um and maybe it's wants to hear from us um and maybe it's wants to hear from us um and maybe it's a little too easy for churches to talk a little too easy for churches to talk a little too easy for churches to talk talk about how we do evangelism in our talk about how we do evangelism in our talk about how we do evangelism in our evangelism committees our pastors get evangelism committees our pastors get evangelism committees our pastors get together we talk about this that that's together we talk about this that that's together we talk about this that that's not evangelism that's talking about not evangelism that's talking about not evangelism that's talking about evangelism that's that's that's studying evangelism that's that's that's studying evangelism that's that's that's studying it and there there's really a big it and there there's really a big it and there there's really a big difference between the two um you know difference between the two um you know difference between the two um you know talk is easy walk is not as easy uh it talk is easy walk is not as easy uh it talk is easy walk is not as easy uh it it this is fun I I love sitting around it this is fun I I love sitting around it this is fun I I love sitting around talking about evangelism with pastors talking about evangelism with pastors talking about evangelism with pastors but if I get on the plane to Charlotte but if I get on the plane to Charlotte but if I get on the plane to Charlotte this afternoon and I sit down next to this afternoon and I sit down next to this afternoon and I sit down next to somebody who says hey what do you do for somebody who says hey what do you do for somebody who says hey what do you do for a living and I don't know if you've been a living and I don't know if you've been a living and I don't know if you've been in these situations before but you know in these situations before but you know in these situations before but you know you don't want to lie so you say well you don't want to lie so you say well you don't want to lie so you say well I'm a pastor and that's like here we go I'm a pastor and that's like here we go I'm a pastor and that's like here we go the alarms start going off the the the the alarms start going off the the the the alarms start going off the the the lights start you know blurring and you lights start you know blurring and you lights start you know blurring and you like the the the flags are waving you like the the the flags are waving you like the the the flags are waving you you kind of brace yourself heart rate you kind of brace yourself heart rate you kind of brace yourself heart rate goes up because it's hard you realize goes up because it's hard you realize goes up because it's hard you realize you're in an awkward conversation you you're in an awkward conversation you you're in an awkward conversation you realize you're in a place where I have realize you're in a place where I have realize you're in a place where I have an opportunity potentially right now to an opportunity potentially right now to an opportunity potentially right now to share Christ with somebody who I just share Christ with somebody who I just share Christ with somebody who I just met um and even evangelizing people I met um and even evangelizing people I met um and even evangelizing people I know it's easier to take a pass it and know it's easier to take a pass it and know it's easier to take a pass it and and so 1% it feels about right uh it's and so 1% it feels about right uh it's and so 1% it feels about right uh it's hard and a lot of Christians would hard and a lot of Christians would hard and a lot of Christians would rather say oh well we're not an

rather say oh well we're not an rather say oh well we're not an evangelism Church you know like you were evangelism Church you know like you were evangelism Church you know like you were alluding to Joby we're A discipleship alluding to Joby we're A discipleship alluding to Joby we're A discipleship church or we're a we're uh a worship church or we're a we're uh a worship church or we're a we're uh a worship church we we focus on the gifts of the church we we focus on the gifts of the church we we focus on the gifts of the Spirit we we do these things in in a way Spirit we we do these things in in a way Spirit we we do these things in in a way it almost is a it's a way of giving it almost is a it's a way of giving it almost is a it's a way of giving ourselves a pass for saying we're not ourselves a pass for saying we're not ourselves a pass for saying we're not going to do the awkward socially going to do the awkward socially going to do the awkward socially challenging work of evangelism of saying challenging work of evangelism of saying challenging work of evangelism of saying hey everyone we have a calling to share hey everyone we have a calling to share hey everyone we have a calling to share this good news with the world around us this good news with the world around us this good news with the world around us we have a we have a a commission uh to we have a we have a a commission uh to we have a we have a a commission uh to go and do this to to to let our light go and do this to to to let our light go and do this to to to let our light shine and it's not easy so I think we're shine and it's not easy so I think we're shine and it's not easy so I think we're pretty good at talking about it and not pretty good at talking about it and not pretty good at talking about it and not doing it uh and I think we're pretty doing it uh and I think we're pretty doing it uh and I think we're pretty good and you have to do it in order for good and you have to do it in order for good and you have to do it in order for there to be results uh for there to be there to be results uh for there to be there to be results uh for there to be produce uh from that so more but I'll produce uh from that so more but I'll produce uh from that so more but I'll pause there the phrase professionalism pause there the phrase professionalism pause there the phrase professionalism of evangelism really professionalization of evangelism really professionalization of evangelism really professionalization of evangelism really intrigues me what of evangelism really intrigues me what of evangelism really intrigues me what do you mean by that do you mean by that do you mean by that Joy well um you know the moment what we Joy well um you know the moment what we Joy well um you know the moment what we do became like a like a vocation you do became like a like a vocation you do became like a like a vocation you know with degrees and status and then it know with degrees and status and then it know with degrees and status and then it really the body of Christ begin to feel really the body of Christ begin to feel really the body of Christ begin to feel like well that's what the pastors do and like well that's what the pastors do and like well that's what the pastors do and then we just show up and listen as then we just show up and listen as then we just show up and listen as opposed to you know technically opposed to you know technically opposed to you know technically according to Ephesians we're not in according to Ephesians we're not in according to Ephesians we're not in Ministry we're supposed to equip the Ministry we're supposed to equip the Ministry we're supposed to equip the Saints for the work of the ministry and Saints for the work of the ministry and Saints for the work of the ministry and um just to you know constantly remind um just to you know constantly remind um just to you know constantly remind our folks that I I think one of the our folks that I I think one of the our folks that I I think one of the biggest problems I remember when I was biggest problems I remember when I was biggest problems I remember when I was in college I I'd been a Christian for

in college I I'd been a Christian for in college I I'd been a Christian for just a couple of years and I joined a just a couple of years and I joined a just a couple of years and I joined a fraternity and I was at a a member of a fraternity and I was at a a member of a fraternity and I was at a a member of a downtown church and they had no idea downtown church and they had no idea downtown church and they had no idea that anybody other than members of that that anybody other than members of that that anybody other than members of that church May ever show up there and I church May ever show up there and I church May ever show up there and I would run I was running this Bible study would run I was running this Bible study would run I was running this Bible study in my paternity house and people would in my paternity house and people would in my paternity house and people would get saved and I was like what am I going get saved and I was like what am I going get saved and I was like what am I going to do with them I can't bring them here to do with them I can't bring them here to do with them I can't bring them here because they don't have khakis yeah and because they don't have khakis yeah and because they don't have khakis yeah and um and so but then there was also this um and so but then there was also this um and so but then there was also this college Ministry that was rock and roll college Ministry that was rock and roll college Ministry that was rock and roll man it was so fun and it was awesome and man it was so fun and it was awesome and man it was so fun and it was awesome and you could bring people but the moment I you could bring people but the moment I you could bring people but the moment I would bring one of my lost friends to would bring one of my lost friends to would bring one of my lost friends to that it would be the weirdest night ever that it would be the weirdest night ever that it would be the weirdest night ever you know the girl in the flowy dress you know the girl in the flowy dress you know the girl in the flowy dress with the flags and I think oh no oh no with the flags and I think oh no oh no with the flags and I think oh no oh no oh no not this week and my friend would oh no not this week and my friend would oh no not this week and my friend would be like is this a cult I'd be like it be like is this a cult I'd be like it be like is this a cult I'd be like it might be I'm not might be I'm not might be I'm not sure but I didn't have at either at any sure but I didn't have at either at any sure but I didn't have at either at any kind of corporate worship thing I was a kind of corporate worship thing I was a kind of corporate worship thing I was a part of I didn't feel like anybody was a part of I didn't feel like anybody was a part of I didn't feel like anybody was a partner with me to reach my fraternity partner with me to reach my fraternity partner with me to reach my fraternity brothers and um when we launched our brothers and um when we launched our brothers and um when we launched our church I just that weird feeling Mike church I just that weird feeling Mike church I just that weird feeling Mike that you get I wanted to at least help that you get I wanted to at least help that you get I wanted to at least help alleviate it so that our folks could at alleviate it so that our folks could at alleviate it so that our folks could at least invite people to come hear the least invite people to come hear the least invite people to come hear the gospel now we don't think that's the gospel now we don't think that's the gospel now we don't think that's the only thing that you do obviously in only thing that you do obviously in only thing that you do obviously in evangelism we just when we talk about evangelism we just when we talk about evangelism we just when we talk about share your faith we say sometimes that share your faith we say sometimes that share your faith we say sometimes that share the whole gospel like you're share the whole gospel like you're share the whole gospel like you're you're your own little Billy Graham you're your own little Billy Graham you're your own little Billy Graham bring them Sav that would be ideal if bring them Sav that would be ideal if bring them Sav that would be ideal if you would do that I would appreciate it you would do that I would appreciate it you would do that I would appreciate it sometimes you just share an invitation sometimes you just share an invitation sometimes you just share an invitation and that's not a non invitation that's and that's not a non invitation that's and that's not a non invitation that's not come to my church with me sometime not come to my church with me sometime not come to my church with me sometime that's this Sunday at nine o'clock and

that's this Sunday at nine o'clock and that's this Sunday at nine o'clock and I'll take you to lunch I'll take you to lunch I'll take you to lunch afterwards sometimes you just share a afterwards sometimes you just share a afterwards sometimes you just share a burden like if you will be known as the burden like if you will be known as the burden like if you will be known as the person of prayer at work guess what When person of prayer at work guess what When person of prayer at work guess what When people's life begins to fall apart people's life begins to fall apart people's life begins to fall apart they're not going to the fun guy they're they're not going to the fun guy they're they're not going to the fun guy they're coming to the pray guy so you if you coming to the pray guy so you if you coming to the pray guy so you if you could just say how can I help how can I could just say how can I help how can I could just say how can I help how can I be praying for you and then sometimes be praying for you and then sometimes be praying for you and then sometimes you just need to share another cup of you just need to share another cup of you just need to share another cup of coffee because they're just not ready coffee because they're just not ready coffee because they're just not ready yet and this person is not a person it's yet and this person is not a person it's yet and this person is not a person it's not a project and so when we begin to not a project and so when we begin to not a project and so when we begin to expand what our definition of share your expand what our definition of share your expand what our definition of share your faith was I think a lot more people said faith was I think a lot more people said faith was I think a lot more people said all right well if I don't have to like all right well if I don't have to like all right well if I don't have to like give my testimony in front of everybody give my testimony in front of everybody give my testimony in front of everybody but I've just got to share an invitation but I've just got to share an invitation but I've just got to share an invitation or share a burden or maybe just share or share a burden or maybe just share or share a burden or maybe just share another cup of coffee that at least help another cup of coffee that at least help another cup of coffee that at least help people get in the game then something people get in the game then something people get in the game then something that we do that I think is maybe a part that we do that I think is maybe a part that we do that I think is maybe a part of the reason that we're reaching people of the reason that we're reaching people of the reason that we're reaching people is we ask everybody in our church to is we ask everybody in our church to is we ask everybody in our church to pray for that one more person that needs pray for that one more person that needs pray for that one more person that needs to come to Christ acts 11:24 says and he to come to Christ acts 11:24 says and he to come to Christ acts 11:24 says and he was a good man full of the Holy Spirit was a good man full of the Holy Spirit was a good man full of the Holy Spirit and faith and a great number of people and faith and a great number of people and faith and a great number of people are brought to the Lord and in the are brought to the Lord and in the are brought to the Lord and in the kingdom of God a great number is just kingdom of God a great number is just kingdom of God a great number is just one more this is the language we use so one more this is the language we use so one more this is the language we use so you identify that one more person and you identify that one more person and you identify that one more person and then from stage we will tell people next then from stage we will tell people next then from stage we will tell people next weekend is a one more weekend which just weekend is a one more weekend which just weekend is a one more weekend which just means there's going to be a clear gospel means there's going to be a clear gospel means there's going to be a clear gospel invitation now surely you can bring invitation now surely you can bring invitation now surely you can bring people whenever you want but now our people whenever you want but now our people whenever you want but now our people feel like their church is people feel like their church is people feel like their church is partnering with them to help them Reach partnering with them to help them Reach partnering with them to help them Reach the people that they love the the people that they love the the people that they love the most okay there was a lot there that most okay there was a lot there that most okay there was a lot there that felt like a training in and of itself so

felt like a training in and of itself so felt like a training in and of itself so when you think about the when you think about the when you think about the professionalization of clergy what I'm professionalization of clergy what I'm professionalization of clergy what I'm hearing you say is it's not all on me um hearing you say is it's not all on me um hearing you say is it's not all on me um has to be on you right Mike like if we has to be on you right Mike like if we has to be on you right Mike like if we stop sharing the gospel on the person stop sharing the gospel on the person stop sharing the gospel on the person we're seated next to on a plane and we're seated next to on a plane and we're seated next to on a plane and we're not willing to do it don't ask we're not willing to do it don't ask we're not willing to do it don't ask people to go there right so we need that people to go there right so we need that people to go there right so we need that I want to come back to that put a pin in I want to come back to that put a pin in I want to come back to that put a pin in it but what you're saying is do you it but what you're saying is do you it but what you're saying is do you train people on a Sunday morning like do train people on a Sunday morning like do train people on a Sunday morning like do you cast Vision on a Sunday morning with you cast Vision on a Sunday morning with you cast Vision on a Sunday morning with guests in the room about how to invite guests in the room about how to invite guests in the room about how to invite more guests and what their role is how more guests and what their role is how more guests and what their role is how does that work jobby we do and we we use does that work jobby we do and we we use does that work jobby we do and we we use enough we just call it what it is like enough we just call it what it is like enough we just call it what it is like if I am if the text I mean you know if I am if the text I mean you know if I am if the text I mean you know we're just like a Bible preaching church we're just like a Bible preaching church we're just like a Bible preaching church so if the text is going towards ISM I go so if the text is going towards ISM I go so if the text is going towards ISM I go there and I would just say to folks in there and I would just say to folks in there and I would just say to folks in the room if you got invited here it's the room if you got invited here it's the room if you got invited here it's because the person that invited you because the person that invited you because the person that invited you loves you now they're not going to tell loves you now they're not going to tell loves you now they're not going to tell you that they're not playing golf like you that they're not playing golf like you that they're not playing golf like Ted I love you like we're never playing Ted I love you like we're never playing Ted I love you like we're never playing golf together again okay the reason they golf together again okay the reason they golf together again okay the reason they invited you here is because they want invited you here is because they want invited you here is because they want something for you and so in fact this something for you and so in fact this something for you and so in fact this one more language has caught on so much one more language has caught on so much one more language has caught on so much at 11:22 that people will come and at 11:22 that people will come and at 11:22 that people will come and introduce themselves as somebody's one introduce themselves as somebody's one introduce themselves as somebody's one more like I was his one more and it blew more like I was his one more and it blew more like I was his one more and it blew me away that I found out he'd been me away that I found out he'd been me away that I found out he'd been praying for me and I met Jesus six weeks praying for me and I met Jesus six weeks praying for me and I met Jesus six weeks ago or one time we were doing a a ago or one time we were doing a a ago or one time we were doing a a spontaneous baptism service and we're spontaneous baptism service and we're spontaneous baptism service and we're about to baptize this guy and somebody about to baptize this guy and somebody about to baptize this guy and somebody from the third row screams out that's my from the third row screams out that's my from the third row screams out that's my one more and so we were like well you one more and so we were like well you one more and so we were like well you come baptize him because the great come baptize him because the great come baptize him because the great commandment say You're supposed to commandment say You're supposed to commandment say You're supposed to baptize so he he comes out and he does

baptize so he he comes out and he does baptize so he he comes out and he does the baptism and so what I have found is the baptism and so what I have found is the baptism and so what I have found is that when guests find out that they have that when guests find out that they have that when guests find out that they have been the target of prayer and care and been the target of prayer and care and been the target of prayer and care and love they're actually honored they're love they're actually honored they're love they're actually honored they're not put off at all yeah not put off at all yeah not put off at all yeah yeah that's really cool Mike I think the yeah that's really cool Mike I think the yeah that's really cool Mike I think the thing that really attracted me to your thing that really attracted me to your thing that really attracted me to your story and having you on the podcast is story and having you on the podcast is story and having you on the podcast is we see a lot of well first of all the we see a lot of well first of all the we see a lot of well first of all the vast majority of even non-denominational vast majority of even non-denominational vast majority of even non-denominational churches are transfer growth churches churches are transfer growth churches churches are transfer growth churches that's just the reality but to see this that's just the reality but to see this that's just the reality but to see this in a Mainline setting is really amazing in a Mainline setting is really amazing in a Mainline setting is really amazing and I'd love to know how you cast vision and I'd love to know how you cast vision and I'd love to know how you cast vision for people to reach people within your for people to reach people within your for people to reach people within your context yeah that's a great question and context yeah that's a great question and context yeah that's a great question and I I sometimes feel like I don't take I I sometimes feel like I don't take I I sometimes feel like I don't take enough time to analyze how it's enough time to analyze how it's enough time to analyze how it's happening but doing it is something that happening but doing it is something that happening but doing it is something that that is certainly a part of what what that is certainly a part of what what that is certainly a part of what what motivates and moves us here too many motivates and moves us here too many motivates and moves us here too many Mainline Mainline Mainline churches uh have the Temptation and give churches uh have the Temptation and give churches uh have the Temptation and give into the temptation into the temptation into the temptation to uh really minimize the need to to uh really minimize the need to to uh really minimize the need to evangelize or create a culture Joby like evangelize or create a culture Joby like evangelize or create a culture Joby like you just described I do think preach is you just described I do think preach is you just described I do think preach is a big part of it I do think vision is a a big part of it I do think vision is a a big part of it I do think vision is a big part of it I do think it's easier to big part of it I do think it's easier to big part of it I do think it's easier to invite people to come and see which is invite people to come and see which is invite people to come and see which is really the way Jesus started the whole really the way Jesus started the whole really the way Jesus started the whole thing in the first place you know it thing in the first place you know it thing in the first place you know it wasn't hey let me you know take you wasn't hey let me you know take you wasn't hey let me you know take you through seven steps to get you saved it through seven steps to get you saved it through seven steps to get you saved it was come and see come and come and was come and see come and come and was come and see come and come and follow come and follow come and follow come and experience uh the good news of of of

experience uh the good news of of of experience uh the good news of of of being with me and in community in life being with me and in community in life being with me and in community in life and doing life together so yeah and doing life together so yeah and doing life together so yeah evangelism is more than a conversation evangelism is more than a conversation evangelism is more than a conversation with somebody on a plane but in Mainline with somebody on a plane but in Mainline with somebody on a plane but in Mainline churches churches churches not every Mainline church is completely not every Mainline church is completely not every Mainline church is completely persuaded that evangelism matters well persuaded that evangelism matters well persuaded that evangelism matters well that's why I think it's so remarkable that's why I think it's so remarkable that's why I think it's so remarkable you're absolutely right and and and so I you're absolutely right and and and so I you're absolutely right and and and so I think that probably goes back to my think that probably goes back to my think that probably goes back to my roots uh my dad is a Lutheran pastor but roots uh my dad is a Lutheran pastor but roots uh my dad is a Lutheran pastor but he was the director for evangelism for he was the director for evangelism for he was the director for evangelism for the American Lutheran Church so you know the American Lutheran Church so you know the American Lutheran Church so you know which is which was interesting the older which is which was interesting the older which is which was interesting the older I got the more I realized he was kind of I got the more I realized he was kind of I got the more I realized he was kind of seen as the black sheep in the national seen as the black sheep in the national seen as the black sheep in the national office of the American Lutheran Church office of the American Lutheran Church office of the American Lutheran Church because well he was the the flying because well he was the the flying because well he was the the flying evangelist you know he go around the evangelist you know he go around the evangelist you know he go around the Lutheran churches and and try to get the Lutheran churches and and try to get the Lutheran churches and and try to get the evangelism thing going but that's just evangelism thing going but that's just evangelism thing going but that's just kind of baked into to the passion my dad kind of baked into to the passion my dad kind of baked into to the passion my dad had that was that was just all around us had that was that was just all around us had that was that was just all around us it was at the dinner table it wasn't it was at the dinner table it wasn't it was at the dinner table it wasn't just in the Pulpit on Sunday morning and just in the Pulpit on Sunday morning and just in the Pulpit on Sunday morning and I was a kid and so from the earliest age I was a kid and so from the earliest age I was a kid and so from the earliest age I remember Vacation Bible School come I remember Vacation Bible School come I remember Vacation Bible School come around and I thought I gotta invite my around and I thought I gotta invite my around and I thought I gotta invite my friends I I gotta invite my friends who friends I I gotta invite my friends who friends I I gotta invite my friends who don't go to church because this is part don't go to church because this is part don't go to church because this is part of not all of but part of what it means of not all of but part of what it means of not all of but part of what it means to be a Christian part of what it means to be a Christian part of what it means to be a Christian part of what it means to be a church is to share this faith to be a church is to share this faith to be a church is to share this faith and when you have a church whether it's and when you have a church whether it's and when you have a church whether it's Mainline Evangelical charismatic Roman Mainline Evangelical charismatic Roman Mainline Evangelical charismatic Roman catholic whatever it is when you have a catholic whatever it is when you have a catholic whatever it is when you have a church that settles that issue of what church that settles that issue of what church that settles that issue of what is our mission what is it that we're is our mission what is it that we're is our mission what is it that we're here for uh are we just here for here for uh are we just here for here for uh are we just here for ourselves are we just here for Holy

ourselves are we just here for Holy ourselves are we just here for Holy huddles are we just here for you know um huddles are we just here for you know um huddles are we just here for you know um affirming each other's views and values affirming each other's views and values affirming each other's views and values and and and talking a good game or are and and and talking a good game or are and and and talking a good game or are we actually here to see what God can do we actually here to see what God can do we actually here to see what God can do through us turn our kumbayas inward through us turn our kumbayas inward through us turn our kumbayas inward facing Circle outward and say man it facing Circle outward and say man it facing Circle outward and say man it gets way more exciting in church when we gets way more exciting in church when we gets way more exciting in church when we start to create a culture that says all start to create a culture that says all start to create a culture that says all right worship is what we do when we right worship is what we do when we right worship is what we do when we gather here on weekends but church is gather here on weekends but church is gather here on weekends but church is also what we're going to be doing or also what we're going to be doing or also what we're going to be doing or what God is going to be doing through US what God is going to be doing through US what God is going to be doing through US throughout the week that throughout the week that throughout the week that culture um I think every church has to culture um I think every church has to culture um I think every church has to decide is that what we're about or not decide is that what we're about or not decide is that what we're about or not are are we here for us or are we here to are are we here for us or are we here to are are we here for us or are we here to see what God can do through us so let's see what God can do through us so let's see what God can do through us so let's drill down on that a little bit Mike drill down on that a little bit Mike drill down on that a little bit Mike because I come from a Mainline because I come from a Mainline because I come from a Mainline background too that's how I was raised background too that's how I was raised background too that's how I was raised that's where I started out and then I that's where I started out and then I that's where I started out and then I went non-denominational but you know the went non-denominational but you know the went non-denominational but you know the script in the 50s 60s and 70s was oh script in the 50s 60s and 70s was oh script in the 50s 60s and 70s was oh we'll plant a Lutheran Church here we'll plant a Lutheran Church here we'll plant a Lutheran Church here because it'll be a place for lutherans because it'll be a place for lutherans because it'll be a place for lutherans to attend and then down the road will be to attend and then down the road will be to attend and then down the road will be a Presbyterian church because the a Presbyterian church because the a Presbyterian church because the Presbyterians will go there and we'll Presbyterians will go there and we'll Presbyterians will go there and we'll put an Episcopalian Church here because put an Episcopalian Church here because put an Episcopalian Church here because then the episcopalians in the then the episcopalians in the then the episcopalians in the neighborhood will go there that was a neighborhood will go there that was a neighborhood will go there that was a mid2 Century church planting model your mid2 Century church planting model your mid2 Century church planting model your script should have been well we're going script should have been well we're going script should have been well we're going to plant a church we'll get 150 to 200 to plant a church we'll get 150 to 200 to plant a church we'll get 150 to 200 lutherans they'll live happily ever lutherans they'll live happily ever lutherans they'll live happily ever after that didn't happen so what did you after that didn't happen so what did you after that didn't happen so what did you do differently at the beginning in a do differently at the beginning in a do differently at the beginning in a Mainline context to break that script Mainline context to break that script Mainline context to break that script when I was in seminary I went to a when I was in seminary I went to a when I was in seminary I went to a Lutheran Church in the Twin Cities and

Lutheran Church in the Twin Cities and Lutheran Church in the Twin Cities and after the service I went and talked to after the service I went and talked to after the service I went and talked to the pastor who was real inspiring to me the pastor who was real inspiring to me the pastor who was real inspiring to me and he said to me he said what the Lord and he said to me he said what the Lord and he said to me he said what the Lord needs in the Lutheran Church is pastors needs in the Lutheran Church is pastors needs in the Lutheran Church is pastors with a fire in their belly and a and a with a fire in their belly and a and a with a fire in their belly and a and a fire for evangelism a fire for Mission a fire for evangelism a fire for Mission a fire for evangelism a fire for Mission a fire to share this good news with the fire to share this good news with the fire to share this good news with the world around us and you know the more world around us and you know the more world around us and you know the more you think about it the whole Protestant you think about it the whole Protestant you think about it the whole Protestant Reformation started by Luther so our our Reformation started by Luther so our our Reformation started by Luther so our our Lutheran Heritage I don't want to do a Lutheran Heritage I don't want to do a Lutheran Heritage I don't want to do a whole like history on on the Lutheran whole like history on on the Lutheran whole like history on on the Lutheran Church here but everybody knows the Church here but everybody knows the Church here but everybody knows the Protestant Reformation history that was Protestant Reformation history that was Protestant Reformation history that was started by lutherans that was started by started by lutherans that was started by started by lutherans that was started by correct folks who wanted to get the word correct folks who wanted to get the word correct folks who wanted to get the word of God out for crying out loud Luther of God out for crying out loud Luther of God out for crying out loud Luther translated the Bible into the common translated the Bible into the common translated the Bible into the common language of everyday people so that they language of everyday people so that they language of everyday people so that they could actually fact check the church and could actually fact check the church and could actually fact check the church and and make sure that what they were being and make sure that what they were being and make sure that what they were being fed was was legitimately confirmed in fed was was legitimately confirmed in fed was was legitimately confirmed in the scripture that they could Now read U the scripture that they could Now read U the scripture that they could Now read U so getting God's word into the hands of so getting God's word into the hands of so getting God's word into the hands of people uh sharing the gospel it feels people uh sharing the gospel it feels people uh sharing the gospel it feels like a very Lutheran thing for me to do like a very Lutheran thing for me to do like a very Lutheran thing for me to do and I've never understood why well I I and I've never understood why well I I and I've never understood why well I I mean I I get it on the level of mean I I get it on the level of mean I I get it on the level of mainliners who say we're we're on the mainliners who say we're we're on the mainliners who say we're we're on the edge of of universal ISM and and think edge of of universal ISM and and think edge of of universal ISM and and think that it really doesn't matter uh whether that it really doesn't matter uh whether that it really doesn't matter uh whether people come to Faith or not but that's people come to Faith or not but that's people come to Faith or not but that's not how I've understood it from the not how I've understood it from the not how I've understood it from the beginning that's not how I read beginning that's not how I read beginning that's not how I read scripture I think it matters and I think scripture I think it matters and I think scripture I think it matters and I think when eternity is at stake it's not when eternity is at stake it's not when eternity is at stake it's not loving to turn our turn a blind eye to loving to turn our turn a blind eye to loving to turn our turn a blind eye to the need uh to sharing the gospel to to

the need uh to sharing the gospel to to the need uh to sharing the gospel to to to getting the word out so we're a to getting the word out so we're a to getting the word out so we're a Mainline Church theologically we're very Mainline Church theologically we're very Mainline Church theologically we're very Lutheran you know we're we're grounded Lutheran you know we're we're grounded Lutheran you know we're we're grounded in the the Solas of the Protestant in the the Solas of the Protestant in the the Solas of the Protestant Reformation faith alone by grace alone Reformation faith alone by grace alone Reformation faith alone by grace alone you know we're saved by grace alone you know we're saved by grace alone you know we're saved by grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone and through faith alone and Christ alone and through faith alone and Christ alone and it's scripture alone that points us to it's scripture alone that points us to it's scripture alone that points us to this I think we all believe that it's this I think we all believe that it's this I think we all believe that it's not like lutherans have a monopoly on not like lutherans have a monopoly on not like lutherans have a monopoly on that but that's what started the whole that but that's what started the whole that but that's what started the whole Lutheran movement and we've lost that uh Lutheran movement and we've lost that uh Lutheran movement and we've lost that uh but not just lutherans other mainliners but not just lutherans other mainliners but not just lutherans other mainliners honestly a lot of folks who call honestly a lot of folks who call honestly a lot of folks who call themselves evangelicals have lost that themselves evangelicals have lost that themselves evangelicals have lost that because they've been distracted by uh because they've been distracted by uh because they've been distracted by uh secondary issues that have become the secondary issues that have become the secondary issues that have become the main thing and so you will be able to main thing and so you will be able to main thing and so you will be able to say oh well that church that church is say oh well that church that church is say oh well that church that church is known for where they stand on this issue known for where they stand on this issue known for where they stand on this issue instead of that church is here for the instead of that church is here for the instead of that church is here for the community that church is here to love community that church is here to love community that church is here to love our neighbors that that that church is our neighbors that that that church is our neighbors that that that church is here to to make a difference in the here to to make a difference in the here to to make a difference in the world around us uh I think every church world around us uh I think every church world around us uh I think every church has to decide and early on here at has to decide and early on here at has to decide and early on here at Lutheran Church of Hope we decided we're Lutheran Church of Hope we decided we're Lutheran Church of Hope we decided we're g to seek to be a church after God's Own g to seek to be a church after God's Own g to seek to be a church after God's Own Heart we're going to we're going to try Heart we're going to we're going to try Heart we're going to we're going to try to reflect the light of God's love to to reflect the light of God's love to to reflect the light of God's love to the world around us the world around us the world around us unapologetically so that was baked in unapologetically so that was baked in unapologetically so that was baked in from the very beginning that heartbeat from the very beginning that heartbeat from the very beginning that heartbeat that fire in the belly that we're going that fire in the belly that we're going that fire in the belly that we're going to be different Joby I would love to you to be different Joby I would love to you to be different Joby I would love to you know when you planted your church it is know when you planted your church it is know when you planted your church it is very easy and a lot of church plants very easy and a lot of church plants very easy and a lot of church plants that our high- growth churches grow that our high- growth churches grow that our high- growth churches grow because of transfer growth you know because of transfer growth you know because of transfer growth you know Barna says 80% of church growth is Barna says 80% of church growth is Barna says 80% of church growth is transfer growth um other stats show a transfer growth um other stats show a transfer growth um other stats show a little bit higher but it's definitely little bit higher but it's definitely little bit higher but it's definitely definitely the anomaly what were the

definitely the anomaly what were the definitely the anomaly what were the things you baked in early on things you baked in early on things you baked in early on that made your church different I think that made your church different I think that made your church different I think I'm a recovering youth pastor so I got I'm a recovering youth pastor so I got I'm a recovering youth pastor so I got demoted to senior pastor and I think if demoted to senior pastor and I think if demoted to senior pastor and I think if you cut me I believe evangelism and we you cut me I believe evangelism and we you cut me I believe evangelism and we didn't grow up in church I got saved at didn't grow up in church I got saved at didn't grow up in church I got saved at camp and I think the problem with adult camp and I think the problem with adult camp and I think the problem with adult discipleship as adults quit going to discipleship as adults quit going to discipleship as adults quit going to Camp yeah and um pretty much every Camp yeah and um pretty much every Camp yeah and um pretty much every weekend of 11:22 is like the last night weekend of 11:22 is like the last night weekend of 11:22 is like the last night of camp it really is and I remember what of camp it really is and I remember what of camp it really is and I remember what it was like to be a non-church kid um it was like to be a non-church kid um it was like to be a non-church kid um getting saved at camp and then trying to getting saved at camp and then trying to getting saved at camp and then trying to find a church and and remembering how find a church and and remembering how find a church and and remembering how awkward that was and so you know I think awkward that was and so you know I think awkward that was and so you know I think as goes the leader goes the team and I I as goes the leader goes the team and I I as goes the leader goes the team and I I really do have a heart for lost people really do have a heart for lost people really do have a heart for lost people um but I also but in no way and I um but I also but in no way and I um but I also but in no way and I appreciate so much all that we learned appreciate so much all that we learned appreciate so much all that we learned in that attractional model movement you in that attractional model movement you in that attractional model movement you know thank God I can preach in jeans and know thank God I can preach in jeans and know thank God I can preach in jeans and things like that and I don't have to things like that and I don't have to things like that and I don't have to fight over guitars and things so thank fight over guitars and things so thank fight over guitars and things so thank God for that I didn't realize that the God for that I didn't realize that the God for that I didn't realize that the pendulum was swinging back I thought we pendulum was swinging back I thought we pendulum was swinging back I thought we were Radical because we taught verse by were Radical because we taught verse by were Radical because we taught verse by verse through books of the Bible and I verse through books of the Bible and I verse through books of the Bible and I at that point I didn't know anybody was at that point I didn't know anybody was at that point I didn't know anybody was doing that I didn't know it was like a doing that I didn't know it was like a doing that I didn't know it was like a thing again and so anyway um you know I thing again and so anyway um you know I thing again and so anyway um you know I can really remember my kid my oldest son can really remember my kid my oldest son can really remember my kid my oldest son was young and we were watching Shrek to was young and we were watching Shrek to was young and we were watching Shrek to for about the 100th time and I could for about the 100th time and I could for about the 100th time and I could remember at one point Puss and Boots remember at one point Puss and Boots remember at one point Puss and Boots makes a joke I laugh Shrek makes a joke makes a joke I laugh Shrek makes a joke makes a joke I laugh Shrek makes a joke my kid laughs and I remember thinking is my kid laughs and I remember thinking is my kid laughs and I remember thinking is Shrek a kid movie or an adult movie and Shrek a kid movie or an adult movie and Shrek a kid movie or an adult movie and if Pixar can pull it off then why was I

if Pixar can pull it off then why was I if Pixar can pull it off then why was I told as a Church planner that you've got told as a Church planner that you've got told as a Church planner that you've got to make the fundamental decision to to make the fundamental decision to to make the fundamental decision to either keep people or Reach people I either keep people or Reach people I either keep people or Reach people I don't think you do and so 11:22 is a don't think you do and so 11:22 is a don't think you do and so 11:22 is a moment for all people to discover and moment for all people to discover and moment for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ and I think every week we get a lot of and I think every week we get a lot of and I think every week we get a lot of people that have been Christians for a people that have been Christians for a people that have been Christians for a long time and they want to go you know long time and they want to go you know long time and they want to go you know learn the Bible and they dig as deep as learn the Bible and they dig as deep as learn the Bible and they dig as deep as they can and then we also give handles they can and then we also give handles they can and then we also give handles for people that can um they don't know for people that can um they don't know for people that can um they don't know the difference between the old New the difference between the old New the difference between the old New Testament and they can show up we'll Testament and they can show up we'll Testament and they can show up we'll give them some handles to grab on to and give them some handles to grab on to and give them some handles to grab on to and the people that are Believers feel safe the people that are Believers feel safe the people that are Believers feel safe to bring their non-believing friends to to bring their non-believing friends to to bring their non-believing friends to come and check it out and um you know I come and check it out and um you know I come and check it out and um you know I didn't know it was going to work I didn't know it was going to work I didn't know it was going to work I really didn't I can remember cuz we we really didn't I can remember cuz we we really didn't I can remember cuz we we challenge the church people so hard like challenge the church people so hard like challenge the church people so hard like we all the time man if this is your we all the time man if this is your we all the time man if this is your fourth church and four years you realize fourth church and four years you realize fourth church and four years you realize it's not the church that's the problem it's not the church that's the problem it's not the church that's the problem you might be the problem and if you you might be the problem and if you you might be the problem and if you hated your last one you're going to hated your last one you're going to hated your last one you're going to really hate here because we're going to really hate here because we're going to really hate here because we're going to tell you to do stuff like we tell our tell you to do stuff like we tell our tell you to do stuff like we tell our church you got three years to go on a church you got three years to go on a church you got three years to go on a mission trip or find another church and mission trip or find another church and mission trip or find another church and people get mad then they go on the people get mad then they go on the people get mad then they go on the mission trip and they bring eight more mission trip and they bring eight more mission trip and they bring eight more friends friends so we didn't it was not friends friends so we didn't it was not friends friends so we didn't it was not like a scheme it really wasn't we were like a scheme it really wasn't we were like a scheme it really wasn't we were just trying to make disciples um I just trying to make disciples um I just trying to make disciples um I remember in high school back when we remember in high school back when we remember in high school back when we used to have assemblies and they would used to have assemblies and they would used to have assemblies and they would recruit for the Armed Forces I don't recruit for the Armed Forces I don't recruit for the Armed Forces I don't think they do it anymore and so the main think they do it anymore and so the main think they do it anymore and so the main four over there and the army guy went four over there and the army guy went four over there and the army guy went first and he gave his Spiel and then the first and he gave his Spiel and then the first and he gave his Spiel and then the Navy then the Air Force and they went Navy then the Air Force and they went Navy then the Air Force and they went all they all went over and the last guy all they all went over and the last guy all they all went over and the last guy to go was the marine and he was like and to go was the marine and he was like and to go was the marine and he was like and they said you've only got two minutes they said you've only got two minutes they said you've only got two minutes and he goes that's fine that's all I and he goes that's fine that's all I and he goes that's fine that's all I need he looks around the the gym and he need he looks around the the gym and he need he looks around the the gym and he goes because there's probably only about

goes because there's probably only about goes because there's probably only about two of you that have what it takes to be two of you that have what it takes to be two of you that have what it takes to be a marine if you're one of those two come a marine if you're one of those two come a marine if you're one of those two come see me his lines out the see me his lines out the see me his lines out the door that's kind of been our Approach at door that's kind of been our Approach at door that's kind of been our Approach at 11:22 it's it's just gospel gospel 11:22 it's it's just gospel gospel 11:22 it's it's just gospel gospel gospel you don't have what it takes it's gospel you don't have what it takes it's gospel you don't have what it takes it's all about Jesus and here are the all about Jesus and here are the all about Jesus and here are the symptoms of the Gospel infected life and symptoms of the Gospel infected life and symptoms of the Gospel infected life and we're going all in and we really never we're going all in and we really never we're going all in and we really never like for instance Carrie I know that like for instance Carrie I know that like for instance Carrie I know that that your show is sponsored by that your show is sponsored by that your show is sponsored by Compassion International because I Compassion International because I Compassion International because I listen all the time and I hear the listen all the time and I hear the listen all the time and I hear the commercials um one week instead of commercials um one week instead of commercials um one week instead of handing out bulletins we handed handing out bulletins we handed handing out bulletins we handed compassion packets to every person in compassion packets to every person in compassion packets to every person in line the back of the sanctuary with line the back of the sanctuary with line the back of the sanctuary with trash cans and said you got one of two trash cans and said you got one of two trash cans and said you got one of two options you can throw the kid in the options you can throw the kid in the options you can throw the kid in the trash or you can sponsor them because if trash or you can sponsor them because if trash or you can sponsor them because if you don't sponsor them okay so that's you don't sponsor them okay so that's you don't sponsor them okay so that's not exactly like from the church growth not exactly like from the church growth not exactly like from the church growth Playbook right and people got angry and Playbook right and people got angry and Playbook right and people got angry and cried and we sponsored every kid they cried and we sponsored every kid they cried and we sponsored every kid they would give us and so that's been our our would give us and so that's been our our would give us and so that's been our our model I here's what I think I mean thank model I here's what I think I mean thank model I here's what I think I mean thank God for the churches that taught us many God for the churches that taught us many God for the churches that taught us many many things in the '90s and 2000s but I many things in the '90s and 2000s but I many things in the '90s and 2000s but I think if somebody actually dares to think if somebody actually dares to think if somebody actually dares to either watch online or especially show either watch online or especially show either watch online or especially show up in person yeah they've kind of up in person yeah they've kind of up in person yeah they've kind of already admitted all right I'm here so already admitted all right I'm here so already admitted all right I'm here so just give me the goods man yeah like I just give me the goods man yeah like I just give me the goods man yeah like I don't need the bait and switch I don't don't need the bait and switch I don't don't need the bait and switch I don't need like the family series to build need like the family series to build need like the family series to build trust and then maybe I'll trust you with trust and then maybe I'll trust you with trust and then maybe I'll trust you with salvation just what are you actually salvation just what are you actually salvation just what are you actually asking me to sign up for

asking me to sign up for asking me to sign up for right and that's that's kind of you know right and that's that's kind of you know right and that's that's kind of you know so if you just preach the Bible share so if you just preach the Bible share so if you just preach the Bible share the gospel invite people to surrender to the gospel invite people to surrender to the gospel invite people to surrender to Jesus and that's especially when my Jesus and that's especially when my Jesus and that's especially when my inner Calvinism comes out and if they inner Calvinism comes out and if they inner Calvinism comes out and if they don't get saved then I wouldn't know me don't get saved then I wouldn't know me don't get saved then I wouldn't know me that's only God saved so how how does um that's only God saved so how how does um that's only God saved so how how does um I like what you said and I think you're I like what you said and I think you're I like what you said and I think you're right when you look at the history of right when you look at the history of right when you look at the history of church growth the Seeker targeted Seeker church growth the Seeker targeted Seeker church growth the Seeker targeted Seeker sensitive movement kind of gave way to sensitive movement kind of gave way to sensitive movement kind of gave way to the attractional church and there was the attractional church and there was the attractional church and there was always I I kind of had this assumption always I I kind of had this assumption always I I kind of had this assumption too we're speaking to both like I got too we're speaking to both like I got too we're speaking to both like I got Believers and non-believers in the house Believers and non-believers in the house Believers and non-believers in the house week after week after week after week week after week after week after week week after week after week after week and I learned this from a mentor of mind and I learned this from a mentor of mind and I learned this from a mentor of mind it was just like well just speak speak it was just like well just speak speak it was just like well just speak speak to people issues because if you assume to people issues because if you assume to people issues because if you assume your Believers a memorize scripture your Believers a memorize scripture your Believers a memorize scripture you're probably wrong if you think your you're probably wrong if you think your you're probably wrong if you think your Believers understand Grace you might be Believers understand Grace you might be Believers understand Grace you might be mistaken if you like we're all figuring mistaken if you like we're all figuring mistaken if you like we're all figuring this out in real time so how do you call this out in real time so how do you call this out in real time so how do you call people to that super high bar people to that super high bar people to that super high bar and yet be sensitive to the fact that and yet be sensitive to the fact that and yet be sensitive to the fact that every Sunday is somebody's first every Sunday is somebody's first every Sunday is somebody's first Sunday cuz you can get lost you can get Sunday cuz you can get lost you can get Sunday cuz you can get lost you can get lost in just open your Bibles turn to lost in just open your Bibles turn to lost in just open your Bibles turn to habach or if you want to call it habac habach or if you want to call it habac habach or if you want to call it habac uh chapter 3 this is where we left off uh chapter 3 this is where we left off uh chapter 3 this is where we left off last time and ignore all the new people last time and ignore all the new people last time and ignore all the new people in the room so what are what are both of in the room so what are what are both of in the room so what are what are both of you doing to be sensitive and I'll start you doing to be sensitive and I'll start you doing to be sensitive and I'll start with you Joby to the people in the room with you Joby to the people in the room with you Joby to the people in the room or maybe you're like I'm not even or maybe you're like I'm not even or maybe you're like I'm not even worried about that

worried about that worried about that um one if you do especially if you teach um one if you do especially if you teach um one if you do especially if you teach when you teach New Testament books of when you teach New Testament books of when you teach New Testament books of the Bible it just takes you to all the the Bible it just takes you to all the the Bible it just takes you to all the places where all the people are whether places where all the people are whether places where all the people are whether you want to go there or not I mean read you want to go there or not I mean read you want to go there or not I mean read the Epistles yeah Paul's like all right the Epistles yeah Paul's like all right the Epistles yeah Paul's like all right you save people you better start acting you save people you better start acting you save people you better start acting like it quit getting drunk on communion like it quit getting drunk on communion like it quit getting drunk on communion and you unsave people uh let me talk to and you unsave people uh let me talk to and you unsave people uh let me talk to these people about the words they're these people about the words they're these people about the words they're using so it will just take you there using so it will just take you there using so it will just take you there sometimes it's just as simple as sometimes it's just as simple as sometimes it's just as simple as explaining what the words mean yeah explaining what the words mean yeah explaining what the words mean yeah I mean when I was starting this church I I mean when I was starting this church I I mean when I was starting this church I was warned whatever you do don't use was warned whatever you do don't use was warned whatever you do don't use theological terminology because people theological terminology because people theological terminology because people can't understand it and I remember being can't understand it and I remember being can't understand it and I remember being in Starbucks one time thinking if this in Starbucks one time thinking if this in Starbucks one time thinking if this brother can order a viny carel macchiato brother can order a viny carel macchiato brother can order a viny carel macchiato he can understand the word of what he can understand the word of what he can understand the word of what propitiation means you know and so we propitiation means you know and so we propitiation means you know and so we don't do a linguist linguistic study don't do a linguist linguistic study don't do a linguist linguistic study every single week but when we just hit a every single week but when we just hit a every single week but when we just hit a word you just explain what it means take word you just explain what it means take word you just explain what it means take 30 second basically just give handles 30 second basically just give handles 30 second basically just give handles for people to grab on to and then for people to grab on to and then for people to grab on to and then sometimes too we'll be reminded we might sometimes too we'll be reminded we might sometimes too we'll be reminded we might need to explain what just happened um so need to explain what just happened um so need to explain what just happened um so I mean we Throttle Down pretty hard in I mean we Throttle Down pretty hard in I mean we Throttle Down pretty hard in worship but then occasionally we'll just worship but then occasionally we'll just worship but then occasionally we'll just say hey let me just tell you what you say hey let me just tell you what you say hey let me just tell you what you were experiencing uh if the guy next to were experiencing uh if the guy next to were experiencing uh if the guy next to you had his hands up he was crying he's you had his hands up he was crying he's you had his hands up he was crying he's really into it and here's why and and we really into it and here's why and and we really into it and here's why and and we don't hate Lambs we're not thinking don't hate Lambs we're not thinking don't hate Lambs we're not thinking about killing Lambs all the time because about killing Lambs all the time because about killing Lambs all the time because we hate Lambs let us just connect some we hate Lambs let us just connect some we hate Lambs let us just connect some things for you about what some of this things for you about what some of this things for you about what some of this Insider language means and usually it's Insider language means and usually it's Insider language means and usually it's as simple as that and then you know

as simple as that and then you know as simple as that and then you know people understand this episode is people understand this episode is people understand this episode is brought to you by my art of Leadership brought to you by my art of Leadership brought to you by my art of Leadership Academy have you ever thought about Academy have you ever thought about Academy have you ever thought about earning your master's degree that felt earning your master's degree that felt earning your master's degree that felt like it's just not practical because like it's just not practical because like it's just not practical because nobody's got time to go offsite with nobody's got time to go offsite with nobody's got time to go offsite with your busy schedule well an exciting your busy schedule well an exciting your busy schedule well an exciting announcement to help the art of announcement to help the art of announcement to help the art of leadership academy is partnered with leadership academy is partnered with leadership academy is partnered with Southeastern University to offer you a Southeastern University to offer you a Southeastern University to offer you a new way to earn your master's degree and new way to earn your master's degree and new way to earn your master's degree and here's how it works step one you can here's how it works step one you can here's how it works step one you can complete the courses inside the art of complete the courses inside the art of complete the courses inside the art of leadership academy which is online you leadership academy which is online you leadership academy which is online you can do it at your own pace step two when can do it at your own pace step two when can do it at your own pace step two when you're ready to pursue your Masters you you're ready to pursue your Masters you you're ready to pursue your Masters you can transfer those courses as credits can transfer those courses as credits can transfer those courses as credits toward any of South Eastern's Ministry toward any of South Eastern's Ministry toward any of South Eastern's Ministry related Master's programs that's it all related Master's programs that's it all related Master's programs that's it all right it's really that simple and right it's really that simple and right it's really that simple and depending on the master's program you depending on the master's program you depending on the master's program you choose up to 25% of the degree can be choose up to 25% of the degree can be choose up to 25% of the degree can be completed by simply participating in the completed by simply participating in the completed by simply participating in the courses in my art of leadership academy courses in my art of leadership academy courses in my art of leadership academy so this is a unique opportunity to so this is a unique opportunity to so this is a unique opportunity to advance Advance your leadership gain advance Advance your leadership gain advance Advance your leadership gain practical Ministry skills and check off practical Ministry skills and check off practical Ministry skills and check off a huge academic Milestone check it out a huge academic Milestone check it out a huge academic Milestone check it out at the art of leadership academy.com to at the art of leadership academy.com to at the art of leadership academy.com to learn more again that's the artof learn more again that's the artof learn more again that's the artof leadership academy.com to lead better leadership academy.com to lead better leadership academy.com to lead better grow stronger and now even work toward grow stronger and now even work toward grow stronger and now even work toward your master's degree what are you doing your master's degree what are you doing your master's degree what are you doing Mike to make sure that there are Mike to make sure that there are Mike to make sure that there are insiders and Outsiders whatever language insiders and Outsiders whatever language insiders and Outsiders whatever language you want to use in the house every week you want to use in the house every week you want to use in the house every week but what are you doing to connect the but what are you doing to connect the but what are you doing to connect the two and make it an accessible experience two and make it an accessible experience two and make it an accessible experience I think I think like like Joby just said

I think I think like like Joby just said I think I think like like Joby just said we don't have to apologize for the we don't have to apologize for the we don't have to apologize for the relevance of scripture uh it but I that relevance of scripture uh it but I that relevance of scripture uh it but I that said we can over complicate it or maybe said we can over complicate it or maybe said we can over complicate it or maybe that's not the right word for it we we that's not the right word for it we we that's not the right word for it we we can make it we can put a cloud over it can make it we can put a cloud over it can make it we can put a cloud over it we can we can turn what is clear into we can we can turn what is clear into we can we can turn what is clear into what is really foggy and that's where I what is really foggy and that's where I what is really foggy and that's where I think we do have as as somebody who think we do have as as somebody who think we do have as as somebody who thinks communication matters a lot we do thinks communication matters a lot we do thinks communication matters a lot we do have to pay attention to to our words to have to pay attention to to our words to have to pay attention to to our words to to to what we're our to to what we're our to to what we're our vocabulary what we're saying um that vocabulary what we're saying um that vocabulary what we're saying um that isn't watering it down watering it down isn't watering it down watering it down isn't watering it down watering it down is dangerous watering it down is is dangerous watering it down is is dangerous watering it down is oversimplification watering down the oversimplification watering down the oversimplification watering down the gospel is a is a dangerous move because gospel is a is a dangerous move because gospel is a is a dangerous move because you know you're G to you're to start you know you're G to you're to start you know you're G to you're to start preaching sermon Nets that produce preaching sermon Nets that produce preaching sermon Nets that produce christianet and you're you're not going christianet and you're you're not going christianet and you're you're not going to go into any kind of depth uh when it to go into any kind of depth uh when it to go into any kind of depth uh when it comes to the the stuff that's going to comes to the the stuff that's going to comes to the the stuff that's going to lead to transformational life change but lead to transformational life change but lead to transformational life change but there are parts of the Gospel that are there are parts of the Gospel that are there are parts of the Gospel that are truly simple not not simplistic simple truly simple not not simplistic simple truly simple not not simplistic simple God's love God's grace uh the the the God's love God's grace uh the the the God's love God's grace uh the the the love poured out for us through Jesus love poured out for us through Jesus love poured out for us through Jesus Christ the call to a new life the the Christ the call to a new life the the Christ the call to a new life the the transformation that could be possible transformation that could be possible transformation that could be possible that it's not hard if if we communicate that it's not hard if if we communicate that it's not hard if if we communicate it in a way that shows people hey what it in a way that shows people hey what it in a way that shows people hey what you need and what our world needs God you need and what our world needs God you need and what our world needs God has uh there is there it's not just oh has uh there is there it's not just oh has uh there is there it's not just oh here's all the simple answers to all here's all the simple answers to all here's all the simple answers to all your complicated questions they're not your complicated questions they're not your complicated questions they're not simple they God goes as deep as we want simple they God goes as deep as we want simple they God goes as deep as we want to go with that but our I feel like in

to go with that but our I feel like in to go with that but our I feel like in this in this world where uh loneliness this in this world where uh loneliness this in this world where uh loneliness seems to be going up depression's going seems to be going up depression's going seems to be going up depression's going up anxiety is going up mental health up anxiety is going up mental health up anxiety is going up mental health issues are are are completely issues are are are completely issues are are are completely spiking what our world needs is spiking what our world needs is spiking what our world needs is authentic community and what the church authentic community and what the church authentic community and what the church can provide is authentic community in can provide is authentic community in can provide is authentic community in Christ not hey going to be friends Christ not hey going to be friends Christ not hey going to be friends because we play cards together and because we play cards together and because we play cards together and that's it or we're going to be friends that's it or we're going to be friends that's it or we're going to be friends because we uh go bowling or or we're because we uh go bowling or or we're because we uh go bowling or or we're going to be friends because we um you going to be friends because we um you going to be friends because we um you know share a common interest in know share a common interest in know share a common interest in something great and I'm not trying to to something great and I'm not trying to to something great and I'm not trying to to at all suggest that those aren't genuine at all suggest that those aren't genuine at all suggest that those aren't genuine friendships but authentic Community friendships but authentic Community friendships but authentic Community that's centered in Christ that Greek that's centered in Christ that Greek that's centered in Christ that Greek word coia that that that's almost a word coia that that that's almost a word coia that that that's almost a whole another level of the of the whole another level of the of the whole another level of the of the deepest level of relationships the most deepest level of relationships the most deepest level of relationships the most authentic relationships are going to be authentic relationships are going to be authentic relationships are going to be Christ centered uh to find family to Christ centered uh to find family to Christ centered uh to find family to realize for all the people who are realize for all the people who are realize for all the people who are feeling disconnected for all the people feeling disconnected for all the people feeling disconnected for all the people who are numb from just scrolling through who are numb from just scrolling through who are numb from just scrolling through social media mindlessly uh you know over social media mindlessly uh you know over social media mindlessly uh you know over and over again day after day that they and over again day after day that they and over again day after day that they can find something more here uh they can can find something more here uh they can can find something more here uh they can find a relationship with Christ they can find a relationship with Christ they can find a relationship with Christ they can find a relationship with one another find a relationship with one another find a relationship with one another people what people need the church has people what people need the church has people what people need the church has and and I think language when it comes and and I think language when it comes and and I think language when it comes to that so now we're taking a really to that so now we're taking a really to that so now we're taking a really deep concept and we're we're building a deep concept and we're we're building a deep concept and we're we're building a bridge to say let's communicate this in bridge to say let's communicate this in bridge to say let's communicate this in a way that hits where you're living and a way that hits where you're living and a way that hits where you're living and according to the needs that you're according to the needs that you're according to the needs that you're Longing To to get met um need meeting

Longing To to get met um need meeting Longing To to get met um need meeting messages I think are important I don't messages I think are important I don't messages I think are important I don't think that's watering it down I think think that's watering it down I think think that's watering it down I think that's listening any good missionary that's listening any good missionary that's listening any good missionary doesn't just show up in a in a mission doesn't just show up in a in a mission doesn't just show up in a in a mission field and say hey I'm gonna I'm gonna field and say hey I'm gonna I'm gonna field and say hey I'm gonna I'm gonna you know a Lutheran missionary could you know a Lutheran missionary could you know a Lutheran missionary could come and say here's our Himel here's our come and say here's our Himel here's our come and say here's our Himel here's our liturgy here's here's what we're going liturgy here's here's what we're going liturgy here's here's what we're going to do and we're going to we're going to to do and we're going to we're going to to do and we're going to we're going to teach you the the way to worship the teach you the the way to worship the teach you the the way to worship the proper way in a very traditional organ proper way in a very traditional organ proper way in a very traditional organ Le him him him based Le him him him based Le him him him based way no effective missionary would start way no effective missionary would start way no effective missionary would start there every effective missionary starts there every effective missionary starts there every effective missionary starts by listening to the world they're trying by listening to the world they're trying by listening to the world they're trying to reach and if we listen to the needs to reach and if we listen to the needs to reach and if we listen to the needs in the world around us then we start to in the world around us then we start to in the world around us then we start to connect the dots and say okay what connect the dots and say okay what connect the dots and say okay what scripture has which is incredibly scripture has which is incredibly scripture has which is incredibly relevant what Christ has for you is relevant what Christ has for you is relevant what Christ has for you is exactly what you need uh and I think the exactly what you need uh and I think the exactly what you need uh and I think the future is really bright for the church future is really bright for the church future is really bright for the church because of that uh I I think we have a because of that uh I I think we have a because of that uh I I think we have a real incredible opportunity right before real incredible opportunity right before real incredible opportunity right before us uh because at a certain point I think us uh because at a certain point I think us uh because at a certain point I think the world has enough smart people in it the world has enough smart people in it the world has enough smart people in it to say this isn't working we're going to to say this isn't working we're going to to say this isn't working we're going to need something more are there any other need something more are there any other need something more are there any other things you have done very intentionally things you have done very intentionally things you have done very intentionally in the early days or even today that in the early days or even today that in the early days or even today that helps keep that Vision alive because helps keep that Vision alive because helps keep that Vision alive because it's one thing it would be very easy for it's one thing it would be very easy for it's one thing it would be very easy for both of your both of your both of your stories uh you know to have started with stories uh you know to have started with stories uh you know to have started with high conversion Church growth and then high conversion Church growth and then high conversion Church growth and then just become a transfer growth Factory just become a transfer growth Factory just become a transfer growth Factory and you look at the numbers it looks the and you look at the numbers it looks the and you look at the numbers it looks the same you grew by 10% 30% last year but same you grew by 10% 30% last year but same you grew by 10% 30% last year but but the church has become a different but the church has become a different but the church has become a different church is there anything you've done church is there anything you've done church is there anything you've done intentionally to keep that consistent

intentionally to keep that consistent intentionally to keep that consistent over the years so that you continue to over the years so that you continue to over the years so that you continue to reach new people anything we haven't reach new people anything we haven't reach new people anything we haven't covered um one is it it better be very covered um one is it it better be very covered um one is it it better be very personal for your staff so like if if me personal for your staff so like if if me personal for your staff so like if if me and my staff if we're not praying for and my staff if we're not praying for and my staff if we're not praying for our one more because I'm telling you our one more because I'm telling you our one more because I'm telling you church is different when your one more church is different when your one more church is different when your one more shows up everything is different shows up everything is different shows up everything is different you know and um so if it's not very you know and um so if it's not very you know and um so if it's not very personal as you're praying and then and personal as you're praying and then and personal as you're praying and then and then for me in preaching um Mike I agree then for me in preaching um Mike I agree then for me in preaching um Mike I agree 100% we need authentic community and we 100% we need authentic community and we 100% we need authentic community and we need authentic communication yep you need authentic communication yep you need authentic communication yep you know I think for the longest time know I think for the longest time know I think for the longest time especially I don't want to be especially I don't want to be especially I don't want to be hypercritical of like the attractional hypercritical of like the attractional hypercritical of like the attractional model but it kind of seemed like the guy model but it kind of seemed like the guy model but it kind of seemed like the guy up front was Mr everything he knew more up front was Mr everything he knew more up front was Mr everything he knew more than you did he knew the Bible better than you did he knew the Bible better than you did he knew the Bible better than you did he had the perfect family than you did he had the perfect family than you did he had the perfect family and he was the best leader and CEO of and he was the best leader and CEO of and he was the best leader and CEO of all time and it was sort of like if I all time and it was sort of like if I all time and it was sort of like if I could just be more like that guy so I'll could just be more like that guy so I'll could just be more like that guy so I'll keep coming here I've actually found keep coming here I've actually found keep coming here I've actually found that when I preach out of my weaknesses that when I preach out of my weaknesses that when I preach out of my weaknesses I'm I'm never run out of material I'm I'm never run out of material I'm I'm never run out of material because boy the list is long and some of because boy the list is long and some of because boy the list is long and some of the easiest things to help people the easiest things to help people the easiest things to help people understand is you you go through a understand is you you go through a understand is you you go through a passage I don't know Mark nine and the passage I don't know Mark nine and the passage I don't know Mark nine and the dad comes to get his son healed and dad comes to get his son healed and dad comes to get his son healed and Jesus says if you believe all things are Jesus says if you believe all things are Jesus says if you believe all things are possible and he cries out I believe help possible and he cries out I believe help possible and he cries out I believe help me overcome my unbelief if the pastor me overcome my unbelief if the pastor me overcome my unbelief if the pastor just stop right there and say have you just stop right there and say have you just stop right there and say have you ever been there ever been there ever been there me too now all of a sudden the person me too now all of a sudden the person me too now all of a sudden the person that studied this since flanel graph that studied this since flanel graph that studied this since flanel graph days now this just got very personal and days now this just got very personal and days now this just got very personal and the person that showed up for the first

the person that showed up for the first the person that showed up for the first time was like wait a minute he's not time was like wait a minute he's not time was like wait a minute he's not just giving me three steps to make my just giving me three steps to make my just giving me three steps to make my life better this guy struggles and I'm life better this guy struggles and I'm life better this guy struggles and I'm going to watch how the spirit of God in going to watch how the spirit of God in going to watch how the spirit of God in him with the word of God in front of him him with the word of God in front of him him with the word of God in front of him has helped shape his struggle now we're has helped shape his struggle now we're has helped shape his struggle now we're talking about a different situation talking about a different situation talking about a different situation there and so that's way more how we there and so that's way more how we there and so that's way more how we Engage The Believer and the non-believer Engage The Believer and the non-believer Engage The Believer and the non-believer with how personal God's word is and with how personal God's word is and with how personal God's word is and practical and it's not only true maybe practical and it's not only true maybe practical and it's not only true maybe even more important it's trustworthy even more important it's trustworthy even more important it's trustworthy like the promises of God will hold you like the promises of God will hold you like the promises of God will hold you up how do you keep it alive Mike I think up how do you keep it alive Mike I think up how do you keep it alive Mike I think in addition to everything Joby just said in addition to everything Joby just said in addition to everything Joby just said this is fun because I get to learn a lot this is fun because I get to learn a lot this is fun because I get to learn a lot from both you as we go um I I think it's from both you as we go um I I think it's from both you as we go um I I think it's important to remind the congregation and important to remind the congregation and important to remind the congregation and and this gets back back to preaching but and this gets back back to preaching but and this gets back back to preaching but it's also other communication tools uh it's also other communication tools uh it's also other communication tools uh you know video tools letters that you you know video tools letters that you you know video tools letters that you send to the congregation uh uh other send to the congregation uh uh other send to the congregation uh uh other pastors other leaders other ministers pastors other leaders other ministers pastors other leaders other ministers doing the doing the doing the same but the problem with transfer same but the problem with transfer same but the problem with transfer growth is we're just you know the the growth is we're just you know the the growth is we're just you know the the phrase we're rearranging the chairs on phrase we're rearranging the chairs on phrase we're rearranging the chairs on the Titanic and and what really the Titanic and and what really the Titanic and and what really difference does that make now there are difference does that make now there are difference does that make now there are people who have legitimate Church hurt people who have legitimate Church hurt people who have legitimate Church hurt there are people who have been abused uh there are people who have been abused uh there are people who have been abused uh they need to transfer they they need to they need to transfer they they need to they need to transfer they they need to get out of those places and get into a get out of those places and get into a get out of those places and get into a healthy church so there's going to be healthy church so there's going to be healthy church so there's going to be some transfer growth and I don't think some transfer growth and I don't think some transfer growth and I don't think we should apologize for that yeah I we should apologize for that yeah I we should apologize for that yeah I don't think we should apologize for don't think we should apologize for don't think we should apologize for people transferring out of churches that

people transferring out of churches that people transferring out of churches that are that are heretical that are are that are heretical that are are that are heretical that are preaching things that just aren't preaching things that just aren't preaching things that just aren't legitimately true um that that that's legitimately true um that that that's legitimately true um that that that's okay but when we start competing with okay but when we start competing with okay but when we start competing with one another when when when the goal one another when when when the goal one another when when when the goal becomes we want our church to be better becomes we want our church to be better becomes we want our church to be better than the other Church uh we we want to than the other Church uh we we want to than the other Church uh we we want to we want to you know when when uh members we want to you know when when uh members we want to you know when when uh members ship Drive victories over over the ship Drive victories over over the ship Drive victories over over the church on the other side of town or uh church on the other side of town or uh church on the other side of town or uh well that's what you're doing let's see well that's what you're doing let's see well that's what you're doing let's see what we can do to to beat that that's what we can do to to beat that that's what we can do to to beat that that's going to send a message that is not not going to send a message that is not not going to send a message that is not not only is that really impossible to only is that really impossible to only is that really impossible to justify biblically uh when Jesus says justify biblically uh when Jesus says justify biblically uh when Jesus says you know if they're not against us you know if they're not against us you know if they're not against us they're for us uh it it's also something they're for us uh it it's also something they're for us uh it it's also something that again people it doesn't pass the that again people it doesn't pass the that again people it doesn't pass the smell test at a certain point people in smell test at a certain point people in smell test at a certain point people in the pews or the chairs or wherever the pews or the chairs or wherever the pews or the chairs or wherever they're sitting are going to say that they're sitting are going to say that they're sitting are going to say that doesn't feel right' uh that this is a doesn't feel right' uh that this is a doesn't feel right' uh that this is a church and you're competing with the church and you're competing with the church and you're competing with the church across the street or or down the church across the street or or down the church across the street or or down the street and you want to be better than street and you want to be better than street and you want to be better than them so consistently for over 30 years them so consistently for over 30 years them so consistently for over 30 years we've tried so hard to remind people we we've tried so hard to remind people we we've tried so hard to remind people we are on the same team uh with Christian are on the same team uh with Christian are on the same team uh with Christian churches that Proclaim Christ and him churches that Proclaim Christ and him churches that Proclaim Christ and him crucified and so what if they don't do crucified and so what if they don't do crucified and so what if they don't do it the way we do it so what if they're a it the way we do it so what if they're a it the way we do it so what if they're a different branch connected to the same different branch connected to the same different branch connected to the same Vine if every if every Vine had just one Vine if every if every Vine had just one Vine if every if every Vine had just one branch and it was or or branches that branch and it was or or branches that branch and it was or or branches that all look the same it wouldn't be a all look the same it wouldn't be a all look the same it wouldn't be a healthy Vineyard uh let's praise God for healthy Vineyard uh let's praise God for healthy Vineyard uh let's praise God for the different branches let's praise God the different branches let's praise God the different branches let's praise God for the variety and and that I think is for the variety and and that I think is for the variety and and that I think is really important then alongside of that

really important then alongside of that really important then alongside of that just real quickly we have to decide just real quickly we have to decide just real quickly we have to decide again why do we want the church to grow again why do we want the church to grow again why do we want the church to grow do we want the church to grow so we can do we want the church to grow so we can do we want the church to grow so we can say look at us look at how big we are say look at us look at how big we are say look at us look at how big we are look look at how full our parking lot is look look at how full our parking lot is look look at how full our parking lot is as you were saying Joby look at look at as you were saying Joby look at look at as you were saying Joby look at look at look at how packed our services are look look at how packed our services are look look at how packed our services are look look at how many people showed up look look at how many people showed up look look at how many people showed up look at how many people are getting saved at how many people are getting saved at how many people are getting saved which sometimes is polite fiction uh you which sometimes is polite fiction uh you which sometimes is polite fiction uh you know look at all these look at all these know look at all these look at all these know look at all these look at all these different things that we're doing uh and different things that we're doing uh and different things that we're doing uh and then we're just pointing people to our then we're just pointing people to our then we're just pointing people to our church consistant around here and I church consistant around here and I church consistant around here and I think I think this is really a healthy think I think this is really a healthy think I think this is really a healthy thing is that churches would say we're thing is that churches would say we're thing is that churches would say we're trying to build the Kingdom of Heaven trying to build the Kingdom of Heaven trying to build the Kingdom of Heaven we're trying to build something that's we're trying to build something that's we're trying to build something that's bigger than us we're trying in bigger than us we're trying in bigger than us we're trying in partnership with other churches we're partnership with other churches we're partnership with other churches we're trying to make heaven more crowded and trying to make heaven more crowded and trying to make heaven more crowded and do our part to make that actual a do our part to make that actual a do our part to make that actual a reality something that we'll be able to reality something that we'll be able to reality something that we'll be able to celebrate for forever now that wakes me celebrate for forever now that wakes me celebrate for forever now that wakes me up in the morning and gets me excited to up in the morning and gets me excited to up in the morning and gets me excited to go like and I think I think people go like and I think I think people go like and I think I think people resonate with that message they're like resonate with that message they're like resonate with that message they're like yeah this really isn't about Lutheran yeah this really isn't about Lutheran yeah this really isn't about Lutheran Church of Hope this is about the Jesus Church of Hope this is about the Jesus Church of Hope this is about the Jesus that Lutheran Church of Hope is here to that Lutheran Church of Hope is here to that Lutheran Church of Hope is here to point people to and and other churches point people to and and other churches point people to and and other churches all across town in in every town so how all across town in in every town so how all across town in in every town so how do you because I mean a certain do you because I mean a certain do you because I mean a certain percentage of any growth is going to be percentage of any growth is going to be percentage of any growth is going to be transferred growth it happens or uh transferred growth it happens or uh transferred growth it happens or uh let's say you're not pulling from the let's say you're not pulling from the let's say you're not pulling from the church Downtown but people move into church Downtown but people move into church Downtown but people move into your communities your cities every year your communities your cities every year your communities your cities every year and they're church people and they're and they're church people and they're and they're church people and they're looking for a new church are there any looking for a new church are there any looking for a new church are there any intentional things that you do to make

intentional things that you do to make intentional things that you do to make sure that they get oh this is probably sure that they get oh this is probably sure that they get oh this is probably not like the church you just left um is not like the church you just left um is not like the church you just left um is it caught is it taught uh what are you it caught is it taught uh what are you it caught is it taught uh what are you finding in terms of quote finding in terms of quote finding in terms of quote converting the church people who join converting the church people who join converting the church people who join you to come on the mission with you yeah there's a lot of things that you yeah there's a lot of things that you greatly appreciate you know I mean we greatly appreciate you know I mean we greatly appreciate you know I mean we live in Florida so when the rest of you live in Florida so when the rest of you live in Florida so when the rest of you guys were dealing with what we hear guys were dealing with what we hear guys were dealing with what we hear happened around the country which was happened around the country which was happened around the country which was called covid we were not as much and so called covid we were not as much and so called covid we were not as much and so so many people moved here uhhuh for so so many people moved here uhhuh for so so many people moved here uhhuh for so many reasons well you know a lot of many reasons well you know a lot of many reasons well you know a lot of these were like just good church folks these were like just good church folks these were like just good church folks that know church and um you know it's that know church and um you know it's that know church and um you know it's very helpful right especially here we've very helpful right especially here we've very helpful right especially here we've got I mean we're not we're only 12 years got I mean we're not we're only 12 years got I mean we're not we're only 12 years old and there's so many very young old and there's so many very young old and there's so many very young Christians here so sometimes it's very Christians here so sometimes it's very Christians here so sometimes it's very helpful for these folks that are just helpful for these folks that are just helpful for these folks that are just looking to get plugged in you know we looking to get plugged in you know we looking to get plugged in you know we have a discipleship process here that have a discipleship process here that have a discipleship process here that people go through a grow kind of a people go through a grow kind of a people go through a grow kind of a growth track four- week thing learn all growth track four- week thing learn all growth track four- week thing learn all about our church and just figure out about our church and just figure out about our church and just figure out what their next step of obedience is um what their next step of obedience is um what their next step of obedience is um there is there's I think the clearer you there is there's I think the clearer you there is there's I think the clearer you can be not only with your vision but can be not only with your vision but can be not only with your vision but what we call our discipleship Journey what we call our discipleship Journey what we call our discipleship Journey here uh the more you can help people here uh the more you can help people here uh the more you can help people understand that we may be different than understand that we may be different than understand that we may be different than their last church and there may be a their last church and there may be a their last church and there may be a reason they're not at their last church reason they're not at their last church reason they're not at their last church anymore um and you don't ever have to anymore um and you don't ever have to anymore um and you don't ever have to apologize for what you're doing or for apologize for what you're doing or for apologize for what you're doing or for what that other Church did but just be what that other Church did but just be what that other Church did but just be very very clear and what it looks like very very clear and what it looks like very very clear and what it looks like to be a participant in this movement to be a participant in this movement to be a participant in this movement Mike anything you do with the transfer

Mike anything you do with the transfer Mike anything you do with the transfer growth that you do get we we tried growth that you do get we we tried growth that you do get we we tried pretty hard not to compare uh you know pretty hard not to compare uh you know pretty hard not to compare uh you know it like Joby you just said it's pretty it like Joby you just said it's pretty it like Joby you just said it's pretty obvious you know if you're coming from a obvious you know if you're coming from a obvious you know if you're coming from a dysfunctional church if you're coming dysfunctional church if you're coming dysfunctional church if you're coming from a church that harmed you um you from a church that harmed you um you from a church that harmed you um you don't need a to point that out to you don't need a to point that out to you don't need a to point that out to you you you don't need us to belabor the you you don't need us to belabor the you you don't need us to belabor the point and say well that they're terrible point and say well that they're terrible point and say well that they're terrible and we're great um how about we just and we're great um how about we just and we're great um how about we just focus on being one of the core values focus on being one of the core values focus on being one of the core values Unwritten that we've had in this church Unwritten that we've had in this church Unwritten that we've had in this church from the beginning is we want it to be from the beginning is we want it to be from the beginning is we want it to be safe we we want this church to be safe we we want this church to be safe we we want this church to be safe spiritually theologically safe spiritually theologically safe spiritually theologically biblically physically emotionally we biblically physically emotionally we biblically physically emotionally we want it to be a safe space uh which want it to be a safe space uh which want it to be a safe space uh which means we're going to be vulnerable which means we're going to be vulnerable which means we're going to be vulnerable which means we're going to be honest which means we're going to be honest which means we're going to be honest which means we're going to get over ourselves means we're going to get over ourselves means we're going to get over ourselves really quick uh and not think it's our really quick uh and not think it's our really quick uh and not think it's our our way of doing it that's really what our way of doing it that's really what our way of doing it that's really what this is all about um I like to use the this is all about um I like to use the this is all about um I like to use the image of of a sailboat and say okay if image of of a sailboat and say okay if image of of a sailboat and say okay if we get everybody in the sailboat let's we get everybody in the sailboat let's we get everybody in the sailboat let's say that's the whole congregation and on say that's the whole congregation and on say that's the whole congregation and on the count of three we're going to blow the count of three we're going to blow the count of three we're going to blow into the sail as hard as we can and into the sail as hard as we can and into the sail as hard as we can and we're gonna really get this this ship we're gonna really get this this ship we're gonna really get this this ship moving we're we're we're gonna we're moving we're we're we're gonna we're moving we're we're we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna Cruise so we go one gonna we're gonna Cruise so we go one gonna we're gonna Cruise so we go one two three I've even done this during two three I've even done this during two three I've even done this during services so the count of through services so the count of through services so the count of through everybody below and and we're g to we're everybody below and and we're g to we're everybody below and and we're g to we're g to we're going to move move this g to we're going to move move this g to we're going to move move this building and of course nothing happens building and of course nothing happens building and of course nothing happens but if we learn to set our sails to the but if we learn to set our sails to the but if we learn to set our sails to the wind of God's wind of God's wind of God's spirit that boat's going to go I mean spirit that boat's going to go I mean spirit that boat's going to go I mean and and so it's really not about us yes and and so it's really not about us yes and and so it's really not about us yes we have to learn to set our Sals to the we have to learn to set our Sals to the we have to learn to set our Sals to the wind of God's spirit yes we have to pay

wind of God's spirit yes we have to pay wind of God's spirit yes we have to pay attention to these things we have to attention to these things we have to attention to these things we have to give Jesus our best we have to pour give Jesus our best we have to pour give Jesus our best we have to pour everything we've got into it but yeah I everything we've got into it but yeah I everything we've got into it but yeah I we plant the seeds somebody else Waters we plant the seeds somebody else Waters we plant the seeds somebody else Waters them but God makes it grow Carrie I them but God makes it grow Carrie I them but God makes it grow Carrie I after every service I'd just go hang out after every service I'd just go hang out after every service I'd just go hang out in the lobby and everything from like in the lobby and everything from like in the lobby and everything from like high five and take pictures to pray with high five and take pictures to pray with high five and take pictures to pray with people just whatever okay I have found people just whatever okay I have found people just whatever okay I have found myself over the last few years many many myself over the last few years many many myself over the last few years many many many times meeting people who are coming many times meeting people who are coming many times meeting people who are coming from some what they would say is a from some what they would say is a from some what they would say is a church hurt kind of situation and one of church hurt kind of situation and one of church hurt kind of situation and one of the things that I'll say is just take the things that I'll say is just take the things that I'll say is just take your time just take your you were your time just take your you were your time just take your you were serving there and you were you know cuz serving there and you were you know cuz serving there and you were you know cuz often times people will share how often times people will share how often times people will share how invested they were and this is why it invested they were and this is why it invested they were and this is why it hurt so bad hurt so bad hurt so bad and just be able to say we don't want and just be able to say we don't want and just be able to say we don't want anything from you why don't you take a anything from you why don't you take a anything from you why don't you take a season and a season can be defined by season and a season can be defined by season and a season can be defined by you to just receive get back on your you to just receive get back on your you to just receive get back on your feet and then you know as a disciple feet and then you know as a disciple feet and then you know as a disciple there will be a time where you need to there will be a time where you need to there will be a time where you need to take a Next Step but that's not up for take a Next Step but that's not up for take a Next Step but that's not up for me to rush or push you into that why me to rush or push you into that why me to rush or push you into that why don't you just take a season to rest and don't you just take a season to rest and don't you just take a season to rest and recuperate and then when you feel like recuperate and then when you feel like recuperate and then when you feel like you're in a healthy place then you could you're in a healthy place then you could you're in a healthy place then you could take your next step whether that's in a take your next step whether that's in a take your next step whether that's in a group or serve or whatever it is so wise group or serve or whatever it is so wise group or serve or whatever it is so wise I like your phrasing I used to call it I like your phrasing I used to call it I like your phrasing I used to call it benching people for 6 months but we did benching people for 6 months but we did benching people for 6 months but we did something very similar it's like just something very similar it's like just something very similar it's like just you know sit in the back relax get used you know sit in the back relax get used you know sit in the back relax get used to it catch what's happening here and we to it catch what's happening here and we to it catch what's happening here and we we'll we'll talk in a few months um one we'll we'll talk in a few months um one we'll we'll talk in a few months um one thing I found very difficult when my thing I found very difficult when my thing I found very difficult when my kids were younger I have two grown adult kids were younger I have two grown adult kids were younger I have two grown adult sons now but when my kids were younger

sons now but when my kids were younger sons now but when my kids were younger our world was constantly mixed up with our world was constantly mixed up with our world was constantly mixed up with unchurched people because we were at unchurched people because we were at unchurched people because we were at sports we were at school we were all sports we were at school we were all sports we were at school we were all over the place in the community then the over the place in the community then the over the place in the community then the kids got a little bit older we could kids got a little bit older we could kids got a little bit older we could still do it but since we became empty still do it but since we became empty still do it but since we became empty nesters over the last 10 years I have to nesters over the last 10 years I have to nesters over the last 10 years I have to be so stinking intentional about finding be so stinking intentional about finding be so stinking intentional about finding unchurched people because I'm not just unchurched people because I'm not just unchurched people because I'm not just going to trade into friendships trade going to trade into friendships trade going to trade into friendships trade them out you know I've been building them out you know I've been building them out you know I've been building into people for 25 years most of them into people for 25 years most of them into people for 25 years most of them are Christians or they're not interested are Christians or they're not interested are Christians or they're not interested at this point despite all of our prayers at this point despite all of our prayers at this point despite all of our prayers I'm not going to cash out one set of I'm not going to cash out one set of I'm not going to cash out one set of friends for another set of friends so friends for another set of friends so friends for another set of friends so I'm wondering on the personal front what I'm wondering on the personal front what I'm wondering on the personal front what do the two of you do to keep that as as do the two of you do to keep that as as do the two of you do to keep that as as you both both flag this has to be you both both flag this has to be you both both flag this has to be personal for our staff so what are you personal for our staff so what are you personal for our staff so what are you doing personally in your lives to make doing personally in your lives to make doing personally in your lives to make sure that you are interacting with sure that you are interacting with sure that you are interacting with unchurched people on a regular unchurched people on a regular unchurched people on a regular basis yeah I've had to ask the Lord just basis yeah I've had to ask the Lord just basis yeah I've had to ask the Lord just like you I had two kids played a bunch like you I had two kids played a bunch like you I had two kids played a bunch of sports now one's in college one's in of sports now one's in college one's in of sports now one's in college one's in high school so it's very different um high school so it's very different um high school so it's very different um but I had to ask Lord I need you to open but I had to ask Lord I need you to open but I had to ask Lord I need you to open who's my one mores now like they're not who's my one mores now like they're not who's my one mores now like they're not nearly as nearly as nearly as obvious um and so once I did that and obvious um and so once I did that and obvious um and so once I did that and that is a prayer the Lord wants to that is a prayer the Lord wants to that is a prayer the Lord wants to answer by the way yes right that that's answer by the way yes right that that's answer by the way yes right that that's one if you'll keep your eyes open he'll one if you'll keep your eyes open he'll one if you'll keep your eyes open he'll he'll give to you so you've got to he'll give to you so you've got to he'll give to you so you've got to remain more intentional I think remain more intentional I think remain more intentional I think sometimes they're not as close as they sometimes they're not as close as they sometimes they're not as close as they were when it was like kids who I was were when it was like kids who I was were when it was like kids who I was coaching and their parents now it's some coaching and their parents now it's some coaching and their parents now it's some of the some of the weight staff and some of the some of the weight staff and some of the some of the weight staff and some of the restaurants we go to all the time of the restaurants we go to all the time of the restaurants we go to all the time and the other thing if especially if you

and the other thing if especially if you and the other thing if especially if you Pastor a larger Church in a in a Pastor a larger Church in a in a Pastor a larger Church in a in a Jacksonville is not a really big it's Jacksonville is not a really big it's Jacksonville is not a really big it's like it's like a bunch of little towns like it's like a bunch of little towns like it's like a bunch of little towns Al together right and so some of the Al together right and so some of the Al together right and so some of the things that I'll do is when people do things that I'll do is when people do things that I'll do is when people do recognize me or whatever I will try to recognize me or whatever I will try to recognize me or whatever I will try to leverage that in that moment to help the leverage that in that moment to help the leverage that in that moment to help the other day I was at this gun store other day I was at this gun store other day I was at this gun store getting a scope and I walked in and the getting a scope and I walked in and the getting a scope and I walked in and the girl said oh I go to church with you the girl said oh I go to church with you the girl said oh I go to church with you the reason is I tell people if if we meet reason is I tell people if if we meet reason is I tell people if if we meet each other around town please don't say each other around town please don't say each other around town please don't say I go to your church because it's not my I go to your church because it's not my I go to your church because it's not my church just say we go to church together church just say we go to church together church just say we go to church together because it's our church like it's because it's our church like it's because it's our church like it's Jesus's church but we're here together Jesus's church but we're here together Jesus's church but we're here together it's also code for me because I know it's also code for me because I know it's also code for me because I know who's paying attention and so she goes who's paying attention and so she goes who's paying attention and so she goes we go to church together and I talked to we go to church together and I talked to we go to church together and I talked to her for a little while and I just just her for a little while and I just just her for a little while and I just just turned to the girl right next to her I turned to the girl right next to her I turned to the girl right next to her I go have you found a church yet and she go have you found a church yet and she go have you found a church yet and she goes I Haven it and I go well she'll goes I Haven it and I go well she'll goes I Haven it and I go well she'll take you and then I just got out of the take you and then I just got out of the take you and then I just got out of the way and you could see the girl go oh no way and you could see the girl go oh no way and you could see the girl go oh no I've never invited this girl to church I've never invited this girl to church I've never invited this girl to church and I wasn't calling her out at all but and I wasn't calling her out at all but and I wasn't calling her out at all but sometimes I'll just leverage those sometimes I'll just leverage those sometimes I'll just leverage those things but you will be amazed at the things but you will be amazed at the things but you will be amazed at the number of people you do come in contact number of people you do come in contact number of people you do come in contact with on a kind of a consistent basis with on a kind of a consistent basis with on a kind of a consistent basis yeah and um if you'll pray and so God yeah and um if you'll pray and so God yeah and um if you'll pray and so God give me eyes to see uh a friend of mine give me eyes to see uh a friend of mine give me eyes to see uh a friend of mine Jason Shephard at The Woodlands is doing Jason Shephard at The Woodlands is doing Jason Shephard at The Woodlands is doing a remarkable job in training his church a remarkable job in training his church a remarkable job in training his church in evangelism he's got this whole in evangelism he's got this whole in evangelism he's got this whole curriculum called good God gospel about curriculum called good God gospel about curriculum called good God gospel about how to take conversations from a good how to take conversations from a good how to take conversations from a good conversation to a god conversation to a conversation to a god conversation to a conversation to a god conversation to a gospel conversation he'd be a great guy gospel conversation he'd be a great guy gospel conversation he'd be a great guy for you to talk to okay and and then in for you to talk to okay and and then in for you to talk to okay and and then in there and then he's got all these PW there and then he's got all these PW there and then he's got all these PW that they say we do he's like we pray we

that they say we do he's like we pray we that they say we do he's like we pray we prepare we pursue something like that prepare we pursue something like that prepare we pursue something like that but the last one I think is the best one but the last one I think is the best one but the last one I think is the best one and then he says and we don't push and then he says and we don't push and then he says and we don't push people further than they're ready to go people further than they're ready to go people further than they're ready to go right now right now right now which I mean that's the best thing I've which I mean that's the best thing I've which I mean that's the best thing I've heard in a long time right there yeah heard in a long time right there yeah heard in a long time right there yeah cuz I'm a big a one 18 guy man you cuz I'm a big a one 18 guy man you cuz I'm a big a one 18 guy man you receive power when the spirit comes upon receive power when the spirit comes upon receive power when the spirit comes upon you and you will receive you know so you you and you will receive you know so you you and you will receive you know so you it's is not up for you to push people it's is not up for you to push people it's is not up for you to push people past the line of conversion and I think past the line of conversion and I think past the line of conversion and I think we've gotten a lot of that and so I we've gotten a lot of that and so I we've gotten a lot of that and so I would just I would just encourage you would just I would just encourage you would just I would just encourage you with that personally Mike what do you do with that personally Mike what do you do with that personally Mike what do you do you're in the grandchild phas and you're in the grandchild phas and you're in the grandchild phas and congratulations grandchild number what congratulations grandchild number what congratulations grandchild number what born this morning number five yeah five born this morning number five yeah five born this morning number five yeah five we're recording this and off to a flight we're recording this and off to a flight we're recording this and off to a flight shortly after we hang up so uh to to go shortly after we hang up so uh to to go shortly after we hang up so uh to to go meet him that'll be great what do you do meet him that'll be great what do you do meet him that'll be great what do you do to keep it active I mean do you resonate to keep it active I mean do you resonate to keep it active I mean do you resonate with that or has it always been easy for with that or has it always been easy for with that or has it always been easy for you oh yeah I definitely resonate with you oh yeah I definitely resonate with you oh yeah I definitely resonate with that yeah the the reality for me here in that yeah the the reality for me here in that yeah the the reality for me here in De Moine is De moin's a relatively De Moine is De moin's a relatively De Moine is De moin's a relatively mediumsized to smallish City hope is a mediumsized to smallish City hope is a mediumsized to smallish City hope is a really pretty big church so the really pretty big church so the really pretty big church so the percentage of people who go to Hope in percentage of people who go to Hope in percentage of people who go to Hope in this town is is kind of uncomfortably this town is is kind of uncomfortably this town is is kind of uncomfortably High uh on a certain level because we High uh on a certain level because we High uh on a certain level because we wherever I go uh I am going to be doing wherever I go uh I am going to be doing wherever I go uh I am going to be doing Ministry you can never have a bad day Ministry you can never have a bad day Ministry you can never have a bad day right you can never just be grumpy at right you can never just be grumpy at right you can never just be grumpy at the grocery store and and our staff is the grocery store and and our staff is the grocery store and and our staff is the same way so I'm I'm consistently the same way so I'm I'm consistently the same way so I'm I'm consistently trying to tell them to be consistent uh trying to tell them to be consistent uh trying to tell them to be consistent uh to to be Invitational to and hopefully

to to be Invitational to and hopefully to to be Invitational to and hopefully we don't have to fake it you know one we don't have to fake it you know one we don't have to fake it you know one time somebody said to me he said man you time somebody said to me he said man you time somebody said to me he said man you must love to get away sometimes so when must love to get away sometimes so when must love to get away sometimes so when when you get out of state you can just when you get out of state you can just when you get out of state you can just you can just be yourself and you don't you can just be yourself and you don't you can just be yourself and you don't have to be Pastor Mike and I didn't know have to be Pastor Mike and I didn't know have to be Pastor Mike and I didn't know what to do with that I thought do you what to do with that I thought do you what to do with that I thought do you really think I'm faking it do do you really think I'm faking it do do you really think I'm faking it do do you really think this isn't who I am uh that really think this isn't who I am uh that really think this isn't who I am uh that this isn't me uh we were doing a a this isn't me uh we were doing a a this isn't me uh we were doing a a building project not that long ago and building project not that long ago and building project not that long ago and and the construction workers you know and the construction workers you know and the construction workers you know they're here every day and and so I they're here every day and and so I they're here every day and and so I would go you know get the update get the would go you know get the update get the would go you know get the update get the tour walk around say what are you tour walk around say what are you tour walk around say what are you working on today what are you doing um working on today what are you doing um working on today what are you doing um and along the way then I say hey you and along the way then I say hey you and along the way then I say hey you know let's let's get to know each other know let's let's get to know each other know let's let's get to know each other let's go golfing afterwards or and it's let's go golfing afterwards or and it's let's go golfing afterwards or and it's but it's all for the sake of living out but it's all for the sake of living out but it's all for the sake of living out the call that God has given to us in our the call that God has given to us in our the call that God has given to us in our daily lives and I'm encouraging staff to daily lives and I'm encouraging staff to daily lives and I'm encouraging staff to do that but I can't tell the church to do that but I can't tell the church to do that but I can't tell the church to do that I can't tell my staff to do that do that I can't tell my staff to do that do that I can't tell my staff to do that if I don't do that so then I invite them if I don't do that so then I invite them if I don't do that so then I invite them you know to come to church and this you know to come to church and this you know to come to church and this construction worker Tim not that long construction worker Tim not that long construction worker Tim not that long ago he said he goes well here's here's ago he said he goes well here's here's ago he said he goes well here's here's the problem here's why I don't want to the problem here's why I don't want to the problem here's why I don't want to to church I'm afraid if I come I'm going to church I'm afraid if I come I'm going to church I'm afraid if I come I'm going to have to change whoa honest now that's to have to change whoa honest now that's to have to change whoa honest now that's a great opportunity to continue that a great opportunity to continue that a great opportunity to continue that conversation I said yeah it's going to conversation I said yeah it's going to conversation I said yeah it's going to change you but you know you only only change you but you know you only only change you but you know you only only the bad stuff you have to leave behind the bad stuff you have to leave behind the bad stuff you have to leave behind the the the good stuff you can still be the the the good stuff you can still be the the the good stuff you can still be you you can still be the colorful you you can still be the colorful you you can still be the colorful funloving uh you know enjoyable funloving uh you know enjoyable funloving uh you know enjoyable personality to be around guy that you personality to be around guy that you personality to be around guy that you are uh that's the great thing about the are uh that's the great thing about the are uh that's the great thing about the gospel it's really mostly about what God

gospel it's really mostly about what God gospel it's really mostly about what God does for us not what we do in order to does for us not what we do in order to does for us not what we do in order to earn uh God favor and that again is very earn uh God favor and that again is very earn uh God favor and that again is very appealing that that message resonates appealing that that message resonates appealing that that message resonates with people uh in a way that I think we with people uh in a way that I think we with people uh in a way that I think we underestimate and minimize way too much underestimate and minimize way too much underestimate and minimize way too much in the church we we have something again in the church we we have something again in the church we we have something again I'll repeat what the world needs um and I'll repeat what the world needs um and I'll repeat what the world needs um and he started coming to church it not every he started coming to church it not every he started coming to church it not every story turns out that way I know that's story turns out that way I know that's story turns out that way I know that's like it almost was and then he came to like it almost was and then he came to like it almost was and then he came to church and he got saved and and now you church and he got saved and and now you church and he got saved and and now you know his marriage say everything but it know his marriage say everything but it know his marriage say everything but it has changed him it has it has produced a has changed him it has it has produced a has changed him it has it has produced a peace in him and a joy in him that he peace in him and a joy in him that he peace in him and a joy in him that he that's Untouchable that he didn't have that's Untouchable that he didn't have that's Untouchable that he didn't have before and that's not us that's the god before and that's not us that's the god before and that's not us that's the god of us and so I think we have to practice of us and so I think we have to practice of us and so I think we have to practice what I what we preach I don't think we what I what we preach I don't think we what I what we preach I don't think we should fake it Joby you said that should fake it Joby you said that should fake it Joby you said that earlier just being able to be yourself earlier just being able to be yourself earlier just being able to be yourself and being transparent and honest about and being transparent and honest about and being transparent and honest about our own struggles uh our own struggles uh our own struggles uh this the great thing about being a this the great thing about being a this the great thing about being a Christian is we don't have to fake it we Christian is we don't have to fake it we Christian is we don't have to fake it we don't have to pretend we're better than don't have to pretend we're better than don't have to pretend we're better than we are that we're more Rel religious we are that we're more Rel religious we are that we're more Rel religious we're more spiritual we're more we're more spiritual we're more we're more spiritual we're more intelligent we're more intelligent we're more intelligent we're more holy we're we're Redeemed by the blood holy we're we're Redeemed by the blood holy we're we're Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb not by the actions of of of the Lamb not by the actions of of of the Lamb not by the actions of of what we do what we do what we do so that's Grace and I find a lot of Hope so that's Grace and I find a lot of Hope so that's Grace and I find a lot of Hope in that okay we're going to shift into in that okay we're going to shift into in that okay we're going to shift into some rapid fire few more questions for some rapid fire few more questions for some rapid fire few more questions for you what has been the most challenging you what has been the most challenging you what has been the most challenging part of being a high conversion growth part of being a high conversion growth part of being a high conversion growth Church where uh a good percentage or

Church where uh a good percentage or Church where uh a good percentage or majority of the people that are coming majority of the people that are coming majority of the people that are coming to you don't have a church background to you don't have a church background to you don't have a church background haven't made a decision for Jesus aren't haven't made a decision for Jesus aren't haven't made a decision for Jesus aren't walking with them what's the what's one walking with them what's the what's one walking with them what's the what's one of the some of the challenges um I'm very very very challenges um I'm very very very convicted convicted convicted about the Pastoral Care aspect of all about the Pastoral Care aspect of all about the Pastoral Care aspect of all these folks coming in so of all of our these folks coming in so of all of our these folks coming in so of all of our volunteer teams it is the most trained volunteer teams it is the most trained volunteer teams it is the most trained we have the most people there we put the we have the most people there we put the we have the most people there we put the most energy towards because it just most energy towards because it just most energy towards because it just scares me to death to hear somebody say scares me to death to hear somebody say scares me to death to hear somebody say I reached out for help and I couldn't I reached out for help and I couldn't I reached out for help and I couldn't get help you know so that that's get help you know so that that's get help you know so that that's especially somebody that because people especially somebody that because people especially somebody that because people especially in Jacksonville regardless of especially in Jacksonville regardless of especially in Jacksonville regardless of what they believe they know the church what they believe they know the church what they believe they know the church is supposed to help yeah so we have is supposed to help yeah so we have is supposed to help yeah so we have people show up saying will you help me people show up saying will you help me people show up saying will you help me and you know you have lots of campuses and you know you have lots of campuses and you know you have lots of campuses and lots of people it'd be easier for and lots of people it'd be easier for and lots of people it'd be easier for those folks to fall through the cracks those folks to fall through the cracks those folks to fall through the cracks so we work very very very hard towards so we work very very very hard towards so we work very very very hard towards that and I still know we've I'm sure we that and I still know we've I'm sure we that and I still know we've I'm sure we have disappointed more people than I have disappointed more people than I have disappointed more people than I would even like to admit that way so would even like to admit that way so would even like to admit that way so that that keeps me up at night that that that keeps me up at night that that that keeps me up at night that bothers me a lot yeah challenge for you bothers me a lot yeah challenge for you bothers me a lot yeah challenge for you Mike getting people from uh the crowd Mike getting people from uh the crowd Mike getting people from uh the crowd into the congregation into the core and into the congregation into the core and into the congregation into the core and and and moving them deeper and deeper and and moving them deeper and deeper and and moving them deeper and deeper into their Walk With Jesus we were big into their Walk With Jesus we were big into their Walk With Jesus we were big fans of the alpha course uh we offer fans of the alpha course uh we offer fans of the alpha course uh we offer Alpha three times a year we probably Alpha three times a year we probably Alpha three times a year we probably have over well I would say easily over have over well I would say easily over have over well I would say easily over half the people who take Alpha at Hope half the people who take Alpha at Hope half the people who take Alpha at Hope are not part of our church family but we

are not part of our church family but we are not part of our church family but we time it with time it with time it with our what we call kind of our Outreach our what we call kind of our Outreach our what we call kind of our Outreach Services so in the Lutheran tradition Services so in the Lutheran tradition Services so in the Lutheran tradition Christmas is a time that almost Christmas is a time that almost Christmas is a time that almost everybody comes to church and Easter is everybody comes to church and Easter is everybody comes to church and Easter is a time that almost everybody comes to a time that almost everybody comes to a time that almost everybody comes to church and so you know jokingly we call church and so you know jokingly we call church and so you know jokingly we call them wers and tumors uh or or cers that them wers and tumors uh or or cers that them wers and tumors uh or or cers that that they're going to show up so rather that they're going to show up so rather that they're going to show up so rather than than shame people for doing that than than shame people for doing that than than shame people for doing that why not leverage it and use those as why not leverage it and use those as why not leverage it and use those as Outreach Services followed up by a new Outreach Services followed up by a new Outreach Services followed up by a new Alpha course so we say hey you're here Alpha course so we say hey you're here Alpha course so we say hey you're here now let's get you going Alpha is the now let's get you going Alpha is the now let's get you going Alpha is the next step uh we have people test give next step uh we have people test give next step uh we have people test give testimonies about their experience with testimonies about their experience with testimonies about their experience with Alpha uh and we we have a robust Alpha Alpha uh and we we have a robust Alpha Alpha uh and we we have a robust Alpha Ministry maybe one of the most robust in Ministry maybe one of the most robust in Ministry maybe one of the most robust in the country and that has transformed the country and that has transformed the country and that has transformed this church it's changed the way we this church it's changed the way we this church it's changed the way we worship it's changed uh our group life worship it's changed uh our group life worship it's changed uh our group life our our community life it puts people on our our community life it puts people on our our community life it puts people on a pathway I can't recommend it enough uh a pathway I can't recommend it enough uh a pathway I can't recommend it enough uh for for folks who are looking for maybe for for folks who are looking for maybe for for folks who are looking for maybe that something that they could do to get that something that they could do to get that something that they could do to get started and also to get people who are started and also to get people who are started and also to get people who are new converts into Church Life uh in a new converts into Church Life uh in a new converts into Church Life uh in a way that'll be healthy for them what's way that'll be healthy for them what's way that'll be healthy for them what's the most fun part of this journey for the most fun part of this journey for the most fun part of this journey for both of you both of you both of you personally for for me it's Watching God personally for for me it's Watching God personally for for me it's Watching God change lives there there's no doubt change lives there there's no doubt change lives there there's no doubt about it those Highs are high and it about it those Highs are high and it about it those Highs are high and it doesn't get any better than doesn't get any better than doesn't get any better than that that that man I sure didn't see this coming I mean man I sure didn't see this coming I mean man I sure didn't see this coming I mean I still can't get over the gospel I I still can't get over the gospel I I still can't get over the gospel I can't believe he saved me I know me I'm can't believe he saved me I know me I'm can't believe he saved me I know me I'm the worst sinner I've ever met I've only the worst sinner I've ever met I've only the worst sinner I've ever met I've only read about your sins thought mine I mean

read about your sins thought mine I mean read about your sins thought mine I mean I know them all and I know them all and I know them all and um if he just saved me I won the Super um if he just saved me I won the Super um if he just saved me I won the Super Bowl and then he called me to Ministry Bowl and then he called me to Ministry Bowl and then he called me to Ministry you know and I thought I would you know you know and I thought I would you know you know and I thought I would you know I I was totally cool with just teaching I I was totally cool with just teaching I I was totally cool with just teaching the Bible to a couple dozen high school the Bible to a couple dozen high school the Bible to a couple dozen high school students at a time till I students at a time till I students at a time till I died and you know we baptized many many died and you know we baptized many many died and you know we baptized many many many people last year and to just see many people last year and to just see many people last year and to just see that I even get to be a part of this um that I even get to be a part of this um that I even get to be a part of this um our first service of the weekend starts our first service of the weekend starts our first service of the weekend starts on Thursday night so we we have a on Thursday night so we we have a on Thursday night so we we have a service in a few hours and to I I can't service in a few hours and to I I can't service in a few hours and to I I can't get over I walk into the room we really get over I walk into the room we really get over I walk into the room we really haven't the music's gotten better we got haven't the music's gotten better we got haven't the music's gotten better we got a few more lights or whatever but the a few more lights or whatever but the a few more lights or whatever but the environment's a little more appealing environment's a little more appealing environment's a little more appealing but we're still just doing the same but we're still just doing the same but we're still just doing the same thing that we set out to do when we thing that we set out to do when we thing that we set out to do when we planted this church back in the day just planted this church back in the day just planted this church back in the day just worship our faces off teach the Bible worship our faces off teach the Bible worship our faces off teach the Bible call people to do whatever it is that call people to do whatever it is that call people to do whatever it is that Jesus told them to do and then just make Jesus told them to do and then just make Jesus told them to do and then just make room for them to do it and the fact that room for them to do it and the fact that room for them to do it and the fact that I get a front row seat is I get a front row seat is I get a front row seat is I can't explain it man I just cannot I can't explain it man I just cannot I can't explain it man I just cannot explain it I think there's a lot of explain it I think there's a lot of explain it I think there's a lot of insight that's been dropped so far in insight that's been dropped so far in insight that's been dropped so far in our hour together but I'm curious again our hour together but I'm curious again our hour together but I'm curious again lightning round if there was one thing lightning round if there was one thing lightning round if there was one thing you would encourage leaders listening you would encourage leaders listening you would encourage leaders listening who are saying you know what we're not a who are saying you know what we're not a who are saying you know what we're not a high conversion grow growth Church we're high conversion grow growth Church we're high conversion grow growth Church we're either not growing or it's all either not growing or it's all either not growing or it's all transferred growth what what would you transferred growth what what would you transferred growth what what would you encourage them to focus on pray for do encourage them to focus on pray for do encourage them to focus on pray for do change what what might you encourage change what what might you encourage change what what might you encourage them to do

I the more that you could partner with I the more that you could partner with your people instead of thinking about your people instead of thinking about your people instead of thinking about growing your church because you know growing your church because you know growing your church because you know right Jesus says he's going to build the right Jesus says he's going to build the right Jesus says he's going to build the church we're supposed to make disciples church we're supposed to make disciples church we're supposed to make disciples if you begin to partner with your people if you begin to partner with your people if you begin to partner with your people in helping them Reach the people that in helping them Reach the people that in helping them Reach the people that aren't saved that they love in their aren't saved that they love in their aren't saved that they love in their life I think you'll get a lot further life I think you'll get a lot further life I think you'll get a lot further than just thinking programmatically how than just thinking programmatically how than just thinking programmatically how do we grow the church if you make it do we grow the church if you make it do we grow the church if you make it very personal and then if and when that very personal and then if and when that very personal and then if and when that begins to happen then then you better begins to happen then then you better begins to happen then then you better get into the do whatever it takes to get get into the do whatever it takes to get get into the do whatever it takes to get people to Jesus tear off the roof if people to Jesus tear off the roof if people to Jesus tear off the roof if that's what you need to do for that one that's what you need to do for that one that's what you need to do for that one more but it starts with making it very more but it starts with making it very more but it starts with making it very the four brothers that picked up that the four brothers that picked up that the four brothers that picked up that mat and carried that paralyzed man that mat and carried that paralyzed man that mat and carried that paralyzed man that was very personal for them was very personal for them was very personal for them yeah Mike how about you yeah I I think yeah Mike how about you yeah I I think yeah Mike how about you yeah I I think getting people engaged getting people getting people engaged getting people getting people engaged getting people into teams uh and giving people a why into teams uh and giving people a why into teams uh and giving people a why for the what I I think so if it's if for the what I I think so if it's if for the what I I think so if it's if it's lightning round rapid the short it's lightning round rapid the short it's lightning round rapid the short answer is don't just tell people what to answer is don't just tell people what to answer is don't just tell people what to do tell them why so don't just tell them do tell them why so don't just tell them do tell them why so don't just tell them hey we want you to invite your friends hey we want you to invite your friends hey we want you to invite your friends to worship we want you to invite your to worship we want you to invite your to worship we want you to invite your friends to to church why not so not so friends to to church why not so not so friends to to church why not so not so our church can get bigger but so the our church can get bigger but so the our church can get bigger but so the Kingdom of Heaven can get bigger people Kingdom of Heaven can get bigger people Kingdom of Heaven can get bigger people won't it's not just that people will won't it's not just that people will won't it's not just that people will resonate with that people will act on resonate with that people will act on resonate with that people will act on that so knowing that sharing my faith that so knowing that sharing my faith that so knowing that sharing my faith with somebody on the airplane in a with somebody on the airplane in a with somebody on the airplane in a couple hours could change their Eternal couple hours could change their Eternal couple hours could change their Eternal Destiny okay I'll do it I'll I'll I'll Destiny okay I'll do it I'll I'll I'll Destiny okay I'll do it I'll I'll I'll risk the awkward social moment I'll I'll risk the awkward social moment I'll I'll risk the awkward social moment I'll I'll I'll take the leap of faith I'll I'll I'll take the leap of faith I'll I'll I'll take the leap of faith I'll I'll I'll I'll try to find a wise and uh you

I'll I'll try to find a wise and uh you I'll I'll try to find a wise and uh you know innocent way to have that know innocent way to have that know innocent way to have that conversation uh so that I can at least conversation uh so that I can at least conversation uh so that I can at least make an invitation and say I I I don't make an invitation and say I I I don't make an invitation and say I I I don't need to get the person saved by the time need to get the person saved by the time need to get the person saved by the time we land in Charlotte but maybe I can we land in Charlotte but maybe I can we land in Charlotte but maybe I can invite them to find a church in their invite them to find a church in their invite them to find a church in their Community wherever they are and and and Community wherever they are and and and Community wherever they are and and and start diving into some things or look start diving into some things or look start diving into some things or look for an alpha course or something like for an alpha course or something like for an alpha course or something like that well I got to tell you I've really that well I got to tell you I've really that well I got to tell you I've really enjoyed this conversation Joby and Mike enjoyed this conversation Joby and Mike enjoyed this conversation Joby and Mike thank you both so much and I think I thank you both so much and I think I thank you both so much and I think I knew this was going to be a a pairing knew this was going to be a a pairing knew this was going to be a a pairing that you wouldn't normally get at a that you wouldn't normally get at a that you wouldn't normally get at a church conference uh but I'll tell you church conference uh but I'll tell you church conference uh but I'll tell you here's what's so cool about it for me is here's what's so cool about it for me is here's what's so cool about it for me is it just shows unity in the Kingdom right it just shows unity in the Kingdom right it just shows unity in the Kingdom right that people from different Traditions that people from different Traditions that people from different Traditions different geography different background different geography different background different geography different background different different different personalities God is using both of you personalities God is using both of you personalities God is using both of you and your churches to reach people in and your churches to reach people in and your churches to reach people in your regions and and far beyond and I your regions and and far beyond and I your regions and and far beyond and I just want to say thank you so much just want to say thank you so much just want to say thank you so much there's a lot of secrets to what you're there's a lot of secrets to what you're there's a lot of secrets to what you're doing that got Unearthed here and it's doing that got Unearthed here and it's doing that got Unearthed here and it's been super encouraging so if people want been super encouraging so if people want been super encouraging so if people want to track with you online where are you to track with you online where are you to track with you online where are you showing up online these days so that showing up online these days so that showing up online these days so that they can follow you Joby Mike where they can follow you Joby Mike where they can follow you Joby Mike where whereabouts um Joby martin.com has all whereabouts um Joby martin.com has all whereabouts um Joby martin.com has all the all the things and um you know I'm the all the things and um you know I'm the all the things and um you know I'm I'm the same place as everybody else are I'm the same place as everybody else are I'm the same place as everybody else are I don't even know all the names of all I don't even know all the names of all I don't even know all the names of all the things anymore but whatever Joby the things anymore but whatever Joby the things anymore but whatever Joby martin.com you can find it there martin.com you can find it there martin.com you can find it there beautiful mic our church website listen beautiful mic our church website listen beautiful mic our church website listen Church of hope.org uh we've got a Church of hope.org uh we've got a Church of hope.org uh we've got a YouTube channel Luther Church of Hope YouTube channel Luther Church of Hope YouTube channel Luther Church of Hope you can find everything there if you go you can find everything there if you go you can find everything there if you go to mikeh householder decom you'll find

to mikeh householder decom you'll find to mikeh householder decom you'll find nothing uh it doesn't exist so yeah I nothing uh it doesn't exist so yeah I nothing uh it doesn't exist so yeah I try to I try to stay under the radar try to I try to stay under the radar try to I try to stay under the radar this was this was a I wasn't sure I this was this was a I wasn't sure I this was this was a I wasn't sure I should do this because you know you're a should do this because you know you're a should do this because you know you're a big deal Carrie thank you for inviting big deal Carrie thank you for inviting big deal Carrie thank you for inviting me it's awesome and joy really fun to me it's awesome and joy really fun to me it's awesome and joy really fun to meet you um but yeah the introvert in me meet you um but yeah the introvert in me meet you um but yeah the introvert in me uh the Norwegian and me yeah i' I'd uh the Norwegian and me yeah i' I'd uh the Norwegian and me yeah i' I'd rather not people find me just put an rather not people find me just put an rather not people find me just put an autoresponder on for the next three autoresponder on for the next three autoresponder on for the next three months months that says systemically months months that says systemically months months that says systemically unavailable there you go I might do unavailable there you go I might do unavailable there you go I might do thank you thank you thank you I'm not thank you thank you thank you I'm not thank you thank you thank you I'm not sure who you think you're talking to I sure who you think you're talking to I sure who you think you're talking to I know you know that you're talking to know you know that you're talking to know you know that you're talking to lots and lots and lots of people but lots and lots and lots of people but lots and lots and lots of people but I've been in Ministry for a long 31 I've been in Ministry for a long 31 I've been in Ministry for a long 31 years and and I listen all the time and years and and I listen all the time and years and and I listen all the time and it's so helpful and I think one of the it's so helpful and I think one of the it's so helpful and I think one of the most helpful things that you bring most helpful things that you bring most helpful things that you bring there's lots of great information but there's lots of great information but there's lots of great information but your humble attitude is the church needs your humble attitude is the church needs your humble attitude is the church needs it it's the it's the anti-competitive it it's the it's the anti-competitive it it's the it's the anti-competitive spirit like Mike was talking about the spirit like Mike was talking about the spirit like Mike was talking about the problem with comparing in competition problem with comparing in competition problem with comparing in competition your attitude is the opposite of that it your attitude is the opposite of that it your attitude is the opposite of that it is very unifying it's very humble and I is very unifying it's very humble and I is very unifying it's very humble and I need it and I appreciate it thank you I need it and I appreciate it thank you I need it and I appreciate it thank you I thank you so much you know I think I one thank you so much you know I think I one thank you so much you know I think I one one of the things we many things we one of the things we many things we one of the things we many things we share in common is I'm like you guys I'm share in common is I'm like you guys I'm share in common is I'm like you guys I'm like how did this even happen how how do like how did this even happen how how do like how did this even happen how how do I get to do this why why me uh you know I get to do this why why me uh you know I get to do this why why me uh you know last Thanksgiving a few months ago I last Thanksgiving a few months ago I last Thanksgiving a few months ago I just sat there with tears in my eyes just sat there with tears in my eyes just sat there with tears in my eyes going I I just can't believe that God going I I just can't believe that God going I I just can't believe that God what you're doing with my life because I

what you're doing with my life because I what you're doing with my life because I know what goes on inside me I know the know what goes on inside me I know the know what goes on inside me I know the battles I fight every day I know the battles I fight every day I know the battles I fight every day I know the things that go on in my head and we're things that go on in my head and we're things that go on in my head and we're no different right you're like I I'm I'm no different right you're like I I'm I'm no different right you're like I I'm I'm the worst sinner I'm like well I'll the worst sinner I'm like well I'll the worst sinner I'm like well I'll compete with you on on that one Joby uh compete with you on on that one Joby uh compete with you on on that one Joby uh I get it thank you so much and what a I get it thank you so much and what a I get it thank you so much and what a beautiful thing you know there's so much beautiful thing you know there's so much beautiful thing you know there's so much division in the Kingdom today and I division in the Kingdom today and I division in the Kingdom today and I think I think I can say this and I say think I think I can say this and I say think I think I can say this and I say this with great affection uh there are this with great affection uh there are this with great affection uh there are not a lot of conferences where the two not a lot of conferences where the two not a lot of conferences where the two of you would be on the same stage of you would be on the same stage of you would be on the same stage speaking not because you're you don't speaking not because you're you don't speaking not because you're you don't like each other but because those like each other but because those like each other but because those streams don't cross and to be able to streams don't cross and to be able to streams don't cross and to be able to bring that together in a forum like this bring that together in a forum like this bring that together in a forum like this and show look we we have a lot to and show look we we have a lot to and show look we we have a lot to celebrate a lot in common and Jesus is celebrate a lot in common and Jesus is celebrate a lot in common and Jesus is at the heart of it what a what a cool at the heart of it what a what a cool at the heart of it what a what a cool thing to be able to do so I learned a thing to be able to do so I learned a thing to be able to do so I learned a lot I'm taking notes I'm taking the lot I'm taking notes I'm taking the lot I'm taking notes I'm taking the personal application away from this I personal application away from this I personal application away from this I want to thank you both so much thank you want to thank you both so much thank you want to thank you both so much thank you thank you Carrie thanks Joby