The Overwhelming Truth About Evangelism in Churches TODAY

The reality is our Christian ecosystem The reality is our Christian ecosystem has to stay alive somehow, right? And has to stay alive somehow, right? And has to stay alive somehow, right? And we've built a model that is very we've built a model that is very we've built a model that is very dependent and is fragile if we don't dependent and is fragile if we don't dependent and is fragile if we don't have these things. And it may cause us have these things. And it may cause us have these things. And it may cause us to overstate things that aren't true. to overstate things that aren't true. to overstate things that aren't true. Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Welcome to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast on YouTube. Hey, today we are Podcast on YouTube. Hey, today we are Podcast on YouTube. Hey, today we are going to talk about the dismal state of going to talk about the dismal state of going to talk about the dismal state of evangelism and I'm sitting down with evangelism and I'm sitting down with evangelism and I'm sitting down with Barna president David Kinnaman and Mark Barna president David Kinnaman and Mark Barna president David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock, an author, speaker, thinker, Matlock, an author, speaker, thinker, Matlock, an author, speaker, thinker, author of Faith for the Curious. And author of Faith for the Curious. And author of Faith for the Curious. And we're going to talk about why most we're going to talk about why most we're going to talk about why most churches really are not that good at churches really are not that good at churches really are not that good at evangelism and this episode is part of a evangelism and this episode is part of a evangelism and this episode is part of a five-episode series on the five five-episode series on the five five-episode series on the five disruptive church trends that will rule disruptive church trends that will rule disruptive church trends that will rule 2025. And to go along with the series, 2025. And to go along with the series, 2025. And to go along with the series, I've got a free leader guide which I've got a free leader guide which I've got a free leader guide which includes all five trends in detail that includes all five trends in detail that includes all five trends in detail that you can download at you can download at you can download at 2025churchtrends.com. 2025churchtrends.com. 2025churchtrends.com. Again, that's 2025churchtrends.com. Again, that's 2025churchtrends.com. Again, that's 2025churchtrends.com. Like, subscribe, leave a comment to join Like, subscribe, leave a comment to join Like, subscribe, leave a comment to join in the conversation about the principles in the conversation about the principles in the conversation about the principles we cover in the interview. And now, a we cover in the interview. And now, a we cover in the interview. And now, a word from today's sponsors and then word from today's sponsors and then word from today's sponsors and then we'll dive into my conversation with we'll dive into my conversation with we'll dive into my conversation with David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock. This David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock. This David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock. This episode is brought to you by the Highly episode is brought to you by the Highly episode is brought to you by the Highly Productive Leader Challenge. So, let's Productive Leader Challenge. So, let's Productive Leader Challenge. So, let's be honest, how has 2025 been shaping up be honest, how has 2025 been shaping up be honest, how has 2025 been shaping up so far? Well, if you're like a lot of so far? Well, if you're like a lot of so far? Well, if you're like a lot of leaders, the busyness of ministry has leaders, the busyness of ministry has leaders, the busyness of ministry has already taken over. New Year's already taken over. New Year's already taken over. New Year's resolutions are slipping, everybody kind resolutions are slipping, everybody kind resolutions are slipping, everybody kind of forgot about that. Your calendar's of forgot about that. Your calendar's of forgot about that. Your calendar's packed and there is no difference packed and there is no difference packed and there is no difference between this year and last year. Well, between this year and last year. Well, between this year and last year. Well, here's what most leaders get wrong. You here's what most leaders get wrong. You here's what most leaders get wrong. You don't have to wait until next January to

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gloo.us/freetexting. gloo.us/freetexting. That's gloo.us/freetexting. That's gloo.us/freetexting. That's gloo.us/freetexting. Gloo is spelled g l o o.us/freetexting. Well, David and Mark, welcome to the Well, David and Mark, welcome to the podcast. It's Good to have you guys. So podcast. It's Good to have you guys. So podcast. It's Good to have you guys. So good to be here. good to be here. good to be here. Really good to be here. So, we're going Really good to be here. So, we're going Really good to be here. So, we're going to talk about spiritual openness. to talk about spiritual openness. to talk about spiritual openness. Mark, you've got your latest book, Faith Mark, you've got your latest book, Faith Mark, you've got your latest book, Faith for the Curious, which is it's got some for the Curious, which is it's got some for the Curious, which is it's got some really interesting data and I want to really interesting data and I want to really interesting data and I want to unpack that, but unpack that, but unpack that, but you know, it's easy, particularly in the you know, it's easy, particularly in the you know, it's easy, particularly in the middle of the culture wars, to think middle of the culture wars, to think middle of the culture wars, to think we're in an era of doom and gloom, we're in an era of doom and gloom, we're in an era of doom and gloom, but the argument with a lot of the Barna but the argument with a lot of the Barna but the argument with a lot of the Barna data is that we're in an era of data is that we're in an era of data is that we're in an era of spiritual openness. Do you want to talk, spiritual openness. Do you want to talk, spiritual openness. Do you want to talk, just set the climate, like, how open are just set the climate, like, how open are just set the climate, like, how open are we? I guess is my opening question. How we? I guess is my opening question. How we? I guess is my opening question. How open are we? David, you want to take open are we? David, you want to take open are we? David, you want to take that one? that one? that one? Yeah, I'll start. Yeah, I'll start. Yeah, I'll start. Well, you know, I think it's been Well, you know, I think it's been Well, you know, I think it's been interesting cuz I remember growing up as interesting cuz I remember growing up as interesting cuz I remember growing up as a pastor's son a pastor's son a pastor's son and I always thought that the whole and I always thought that the whole and I always thought that the whole world was against us, at least here in world was against us, at least here in world was against us, at least here in America, especially in Phoenix, Arizona. America, especially in Phoenix, Arizona. America, especially in Phoenix, Arizona. And my dad, Gary Kinnaman, amazing And my dad, Gary Kinnaman, amazing And my dad, Gary Kinnaman, amazing leader and but but growing up in a leader and but but growing up in a leader and but but growing up in a Christian home, you sort of feel like no Christian home, you sort of feel like no Christian home, you sort of feel like no one no one believes this stuff. But it one no one believes this stuff. But it one no one believes this stuff. But it turns out that most Americans have a turns out that most Americans have a turns out that most Americans have a Christian background and what we're Christian background and what we're Christian background and what we're finding in the last two, three years is finding in the last two, three years is finding in the last two, three years is that there's even among those who don't that there's even among those who don't that there's even among those who don't have a Christian background, have a Christian background, have a Christian background, there's just a tremendous amount of there's just a tremendous amount of there's just a tremendous amount of openness. 72% of Americans are openness. 72% of Americans are openness. 72% of Americans are spiritually open spiritually open spiritually open and you can find on barna.com more about and you can find on barna.com more about and you can find on barna.com more about the definitions behind that, but just the definitions behind that, but just the definitions behind that, but just basically they describe themselves as basically they describe themselves as basically they describe themselves as spiritual, they believe there's a spiritual, they believe there's a spiritual, they believe there's a possibility for a supernatural possibility for a supernatural possibility for a supernatural world that the reality of, you know, the

world that the reality of, you know, the world that the reality of, you know, the material world is not all that there material world is not all that there material world is not all that there could be. could be. could be. And I just think this is a a headline, And I just think this is a a headline, And I just think this is a a headline, even even recognizing that with younger even even recognizing that with younger even even recognizing that with younger generations since the pandemic, we asked generations since the pandemic, we asked generations since the pandemic, we asked this interesting question, do you this interesting question, do you this interesting question, do you describe yourself as more open to God describe yourself as more open to God describe yourself as more open to God since the pandemic began or or not? And since the pandemic began or or not? And since the pandemic began or or not? And young people, Gen Z and Millennials, young people, Gen Z and Millennials, young people, Gen Z and Millennials, more than half say they're more open to more than half say they're more open to more than half say they're more open to God than before the pandemic. God than before the pandemic. God than before the pandemic. Younger, sorry, older generations, Younger, sorry, older generations, Younger, sorry, older generations, Boomers and Gen X, are less than half Boomers and Gen X, are less than half Boomers and Gen X, are less than half say that's that's true. Only a third of say that's that's true. Only a third of say that's that's true. Only a third of Boomers. So, there's something happening Boomers. So, there's something happening Boomers. So, there's something happening across our society where, across our society where, across our society where, you know, maybe some of the pretenses you know, maybe some of the pretenses you know, maybe some of the pretenses have been stripped back. There's a real have been stripped back. There's a real have been stripped back. There's a real openness, whether it's even in openness, whether it's even in openness, whether it's even in entertainment, something like Stranger entertainment, something like Stranger entertainment, something like Stranger Things, Things, Things, people are open to the possibility that people are open to the possibility that people are open to the possibility that there's something, you know, beyond our there's something, you know, beyond our there's something, you know, beyond our sort of five senses. sort of five senses. sort of five senses. Yet, if you listen to the dialogue from Yet, if you listen to the dialogue from Yet, if you listen to the dialogue from a lot of church leaders, it feels like a lot of church leaders, it feels like a lot of church leaders, it feels like the culture's walked away, the culture the culture's walked away, the culture the culture's walked away, the culture is hostile, we're being persecuted. is hostile, we're being persecuted. is hostile, we're being persecuted. What's your take on that? Well, I think, What's your take on that? Well, I think, What's your take on that? Well, I think, you know, you know, you know, one of the problems that we have is that one of the problems that we have is that one of the problems that we have is that we are a culture that needs to fill we are a culture that needs to fill we are a culture that needs to fill seats, and we need to raise money.

seats, and we need to raise money. seats, and we need to raise money. Okay, we're going to go there. Okay, Okay, we're going to go there. Okay, Okay, we're going to go there. Okay, let's go there. let's go there. let's go there. in order to do that, uh the reality is, in order to do that, uh the reality is, in order to do that, uh the reality is, in order to do that, sometimes in order to do that, sometimes in order to do that, sometimes uh painting a a really terrible picture uh painting a a really terrible picture uh painting a a really terrible picture is the best picture to paint to motivate is the best picture to paint to motivate is the best picture to paint to motivate people to give. And um that's at least people to give. And um that's at least people to give. And um that's at least that's the only thing I could find out. that's the only thing I could find out. that's the only thing I could find out. Well, when I was doing a parenting Well, when I was doing a parenting Well, when I was doing a parenting workshop, I was trying to explain to workshop, I was trying to explain to workshop, I was trying to explain to uh parents of teenagers why this was uh parents of teenagers why this was uh parents of teenagers why this was actually a great time to be a teenager. actually a great time to be a teenager. actually a great time to be a teenager. Nobody agreed with me on it. And I was Nobody agreed with me on it. And I was Nobody agreed with me on it. And I was just was going through the data and just was going through the data and just was going through the data and showing like all these positive trends showing like all these positive trends showing like all these positive trends with um flourishing among teenagers, with um flourishing among teenagers, with um flourishing among teenagers, opportunity, all this. And parents would opportunity, all this. And parents would opportunity, all this. And parents would not believe it. It was just like this not believe it. It was just like this not believe it. It was just like this was the worst time to be a teenager, so was the worst time to be a teenager, so was the worst time to be a teenager, so much worse than when they were a child. much worse than when they were a child. much worse than when they were a child. And I even had to change the seminar And I even had to change the seminar And I even had to change the seminar because uh it was so disruptive to them because uh it was so disruptive to them because uh it was so disruptive to them that they couldn't move forward. that they couldn't move forward. that they couldn't move forward. even hear the rest of what you had to even hear the rest of what you had to even hear the rest of what you had to say. say. say. hear the rest of what we were talking hear the rest of what we were talking hear the rest of what we were talking about, and I go, where is this coming about, and I go, where is this coming about, and I go, where is this coming from? So, when I started looking about from? So, when I started looking about from? So, when I started looking about 7-8 years ago at some of the research we 7-8 years ago at some of the research we 7-8 years ago at some of the research we were doing at Barna, I'm going, there is were doing at Barna, I'm going, there is were doing at Barna, I'm going, there is this group of people, it started out to this group of people, it started out to this group of people, it started out to be about 80-90 million, much larger than be about 80-90 million, much larger than be about 80-90 million, much larger than that as we're finding out, but that that as we're finding out, but that that as we're finding out, but that didn't fit the category of what didn't fit the category of what didn't fit the category of what everybody else was saying was happening everybody else was saying was happening everybody else was saying was happening with people outside the church. And then with people outside the church. And then with people outside the church. And then my own children who are creatives that my own children who are creatives that my own children who are creatives that were going into adulthood, I started were going into adulthood, I started were going into adulthood, I started interacting with their friends and interacting with their friends and interacting with their friends and going, this is not matching up with the going, this is not matching up with the going, this is not matching up with the narrative that we're telling ourselves narrative that we're telling ourselves narrative that we're telling ourselves within the church. There is something within the church. There is something within the church. There is something happening here that is really unique and happening here that is really unique and happening here that is really unique and during the pandemic I had a lot of time

during the pandemic I had a lot of time during the pandemic I had a lot of time to spend with non-Christians and I got to spend with non-Christians and I got to spend with non-Christians and I got to go deep and and that's what kind of to go deep and and that's what kind of to go deep and and that's what kind of led me to kind of explore this idea of led me to kind of explore this idea of led me to kind of explore this idea of curiosity cuz I saw that people were not curiosity cuz I saw that people were not curiosity cuz I saw that people were not necessarily interested in Christianity, necessarily interested in Christianity, necessarily interested in Christianity, but they were interested in spirituality but they were interested in spirituality but they were interested in spirituality and that they were open to the idea of and that they were open to the idea of and that they were open to the idea of Christianity. So. So, I want to go pick Christianity. So. So, I want to go pick Christianity. So. So, I want to go pick up on that in a minute, but I want to go up on that in a minute, but I want to go up on that in a minute, but I want to go back to what you said, you know, we got back to what you said, you know, we got back to what you said, you know, we got to fill seats and we got to raise money. to fill seats and we got to raise money. to fill seats and we got to raise money. What's underneath that? Well, I think What's underneath that? Well, I think What's underneath that? Well, I think what's underneath that it well, it's what's underneath that it well, it's what's underneath that it well, it's just the reality is our Christian just the reality is our Christian just the reality is our Christian ecosystem has to stay alive somehow, ecosystem has to stay alive somehow, ecosystem has to stay alive somehow, right? And we've built a model that is right? And we've built a model that is right? And we've built a model that is very dependent and is fragile if we very dependent and is fragile if we very dependent and is fragile if we don't have these things and it may cause don't have these things and it may cause don't have these things and it may cause us to overstate things that aren't true. us to overstate things that aren't true. us to overstate things that aren't true. Well, I think David, it might have been Well, I think David, it might have been Well, I think David, it might have been an interview, you and I have worked an interview, you and I have worked an interview, you and I have worked together for so long. I seem to remember together for so long. I seem to remember together for so long. I seem to remember that it was an interview I did with you that it was an interview I did with you that it was an interview I did with you a number of years ago. We were a number of years ago. We were a number of years ago. We were interviewing someone very well known who interviewing someone very well known who interviewing someone very well known who interviewed somebody else very well interviewed somebody else very well interviewed somebody else very well known known known and said, how do you raise all of this and said, how do you raise all of this and said, how do you raise all of this money?

money? money? And his answer was, easy, have an enemy. And his answer was, easy, have an enemy. And his answer was, easy, have an enemy. Mhm. Right? Do you remember that Mhm. Right? Do you remember that Mhm. Right? Do you remember that conversation? conversation? conversation? Yeah, I'm not going to name names at Yeah, I'm not going to name names at Yeah, I'm not going to name names at this point, but it was really this point, but it was really this point, but it was really interesting and that guy raised hundreds interesting and that guy raised hundreds interesting and that guy raised hundreds of millions of dollars in his lifetime, of millions of dollars in his lifetime, of millions of dollars in his lifetime, but it's like us against the world, us but it's like us against the world, us but it's like us against the world, us against the world. against the world. against the world. Why do you think that is such an Why do you think that is such an Why do you think that is such an attractive narrative for so many attractive narrative for so many attractive narrative for so many leaders? Because if you just follow leaders? Because if you just follow leaders? Because if you just follow certain channels on social media, certain channels on social media, certain channels on social media, certain people on social media, you're certain people on social media, you're certain people on social media, you're convinced the sky is falling, we're convinced the sky is falling, we're convinced the sky is falling, we're being persecuted, being persecuted, being persecuted, and we have to fight them, culture war. and we have to fight them, culture war. and we have to fight them, culture war. Well, let first let me take on the idea Well, let first let me take on the idea Well, let first let me take on the idea that that that simple binary or black and white answers simple binary or black and white answers simple binary or black and white answers don't actually work as well. And being a don't actually work as well. And being a don't actually work as well. And being a social researcher, it's been really social researcher, it's been really social researcher, it's been really interesting interesting interesting to see the number of atheists who say to see the number of atheists who say to see the number of atheists who say they pray or the number of Christians they pray or the number of Christians they pray or the number of Christians who say they don't believe in God. who say they don't believe in God. who say they don't believe in God. That's not a majority, but that like you That's not a majority, but that like you That's not a majority, but that like you start to take stock of these things. start to take stock of these things. start to take stock of these things. who don't believe in God and atheists who don't believe in God and atheists who don't believe in God and atheists who pray. Correct. In other In other who pray. Correct. In other In other who pray. Correct. In other In other words, it's it's a more complex picture. words, it's it's a more complex picture. words, it's it's a more complex picture. It's very complex. It's very complex. It's very complex. And so when you start even just really And so when you start even just really And so when you start even just really simple social research and you're simple social research and you're simple social research and you're saying, you know, do do the people that saying, you know, do do the people that saying, you know, do do the people that we're interviewing have a coherent way we're interviewing have a coherent way we're interviewing have a coherent way of seeing a biblical worldview? I mean, of seeing a biblical worldview? I mean, of seeing a biblical worldview? I mean, and as soon as you add just a few and as soon as you add just a few and as soon as you add just a few questions, you know, Barna has been questions, you know, Barna has been questions, you know, Barna has been sometimes controversial because we'll sometimes controversial because we'll sometimes controversial because we'll talk about evangelicals or a biblical talk about evangelicals or a biblical talk about evangelicals or a biblical worldview or resilient disciples and worldview or resilient disciples and worldview or resilient disciples and we've we've tried to All right, hey, we've we've tried to All right, hey, we've we've tried to All right, hey, everyone is measuring born-again everyone is measuring born-again everyone is measuring born-again Christians or we're talking about Christians or we're talking about Christians or we're talking about evangelicals by a certain evangelicals by a certain evangelicals by a certain set of measures and using social set of measures and using social set of measures and using social research as soon as you add just another

research as soon as you add just another research as soon as you add just another layer, all of a sudden that number drops layer, all of a sudden that number drops layer, all of a sudden that number drops really significantly. And again, this really significantly. And again, this really significantly. And again, this notion that social research actually notion that social research actually notion that social research actually shows us there's quite a bit more in shows us there's quite a bit more in shows us there's quite a bit more in common among Americans than divides us, common among Americans than divides us, common among Americans than divides us, but media, social media, the algorithms but media, social media, the algorithms but media, social media, the algorithms kind of amplify those differences. Being kind of amplify those differences. Being kind of amplify those differences. Being a social researcher is a great privilege a social researcher is a great privilege a social researcher is a great privilege cuz you get to see a lot of the cracks, cuz you get to see a lot of the cracks, cuz you get to see a lot of the cracks, a lot of the nuances, a lot of the a lot of the nuances, a lot of the a lot of the nuances, a lot of the things between the stories. Um things between the stories. Um things between the stories. Um but coming to the second point, but coming to the second point, but coming to the second point, that I think first of all, there is a that I think first of all, there is a that I think first of all, there is a scriptural scriptural scriptural model in talking about us versus the model in talking about us versus the model in talking about us versus the world. And you know, Jesus does it. world. And you know, Jesus does it. world. And you know, Jesus does it. You know, there's strong language about, You know, there's strong language about, You know, there's strong language about, you know, sin and evil and, you know, you know, sin and evil and, you know, you know, sin and evil and, you know, the powers of darkness and Paul does it. the powers of darkness and Paul does it. the powers of darkness and Paul does it. And I think the the biggest thing is And I think the the biggest thing is And I think the the biggest thing is they're not raising money. they're not raising money. they're not raising money. Um right? Um right? Um right? So So I think part of So part of the So So I think part of So part of the So So I think part of So part of the thing is like how do we measure what it thing is like how do we measure what it thing is like how do we measure what it means to be faithful? And, you know, I means to be faithful? And, you know, I means to be faithful? And, you know, I think the question that we have now as think the question that we have now as think the question that we have now as a set of ministry leaders a set of ministry leaders a set of ministry leaders is how do we authentically raise money is how do we authentically raise money is how do we authentically raise money cuz that is part of what Christian cuz that is part of what Christian cuz that is part of what Christian leaders need to do.

leaders need to do. leaders need to do. Um but how do we do that in ways that Um but how do we do that in ways that Um but how do we do that in ways that and and how do we tell us versus them and and how do we tell us versus them and and how do we tell us versus them stories cuz there are places where, you stories cuz there are places where, you stories cuz there are places where, you know, the god of this age has blinded know, the god of this age has blinded know, the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers. the minds of unbelievers. the minds of unbelievers. And, you know, they can't see the light And, you know, they can't see the light And, you know, they can't see the light of the gospel. of the gospel. of the gospel. That's a great point. We do have an That's a great point. We do have an That's a great point. We do have an enemy, enemy, enemy, but that's not the enemy that we choose but that's not the enemy that we choose but that's not the enemy that we choose to raise money off of. to raise money off of. to raise money off of. Okay. Okay. Okay. What we've done is is the god of this What we've done is is the god of this What we've done is is the god of this age has made us make enemies out of the age has made us make enemies out of the age has made us make enemies out of the people that we're supposed to be loving people that we're supposed to be loving people that we're supposed to be loving and reaching out to. And so we're and reaching out to. And so we're and reaching out to. And so we're putting them in the enemy spot rather putting them in the enemy spot rather putting them in the enemy spot rather than Satan himself. And And in the than Satan himself. And And in the than Satan himself. And And in the process of doing it, the gospel's been process of doing it, the gospel's been process of doing it, the gospel's been hindered. hindered. hindered. And sometimes those outcomes I think And sometimes those outcomes I think And sometimes those outcomes I think that's partly what I would say is that's partly what I would say is that's partly what I would say is in a an era of databases and direct mail in a an era of databases and direct mail in a an era of databases and direct mail and fundraising appeals and all the good and fundraising appeals and all the good and fundraising appeals and all the good things that, you know, started with a things that, you know, started with a things that, you know, started with a with a good intent with a good intent with a good intent television, radio, ministries that are, television, radio, ministries that are, television, radio, ministries that are, you know, radio or television you know, radio or television you know, radio or television ministries. ministries. ministries. Um like it's great to build an audience. Um like it's great to build an audience. Um like it's great to build an audience. It's great to build a constituent. It's It's great to build a constituent. It's It's great to build a constituent. It's great to build a church. But then to at great to build a church. But then to at great to build a church. But then to at what cost, right? I mean Jesus himself what cost, right? I mean Jesus himself what cost, right? I mean Jesus himself said, you know, you might What What is said, you know, you might What What is said, you know, you might What What is the profit of a man to gain the whole the profit of a man to gain the whole the profit of a man to gain the whole world and that lose use their lose their world and that lose use their lose their world and that lose use their lose their soul? And I think that's the the tension soul? And I think that's the the tension soul? And I think that's the the tension we'd love to talk about here is that we'd love to talk about here is that we'd love to talk about here is that notion of like how do we actually follow notion of like how do we actually follow notion of like how do we actually follow an authentic path to ministry where we an authentic path to ministry where we an authentic path to ministry where we can can can be all about asking people for resources be all about asking people for resources be all about asking people for resources and supporting the cause, and supporting the cause, and supporting the cause, uh you know, talking about the reality uh you know, talking about the reality uh you know, talking about the reality of living in a world where there is sin, of living in a world where there is sin, of living in a world where there is sin, there is brokenness, there is an there is brokenness, there is an there is brokenness, there is an adversary, adversary, adversary, uh the world itself can corrupt us, and

uh the world itself can corrupt us, and uh the world itself can corrupt us, and I think, you know, we want to talk about I think, you know, we want to talk about I think, you know, we want to talk about those important issues, but, you know, those important issues, but, you know, those important issues, but, you know, when you start mixing the messaging with when you start mixing the messaging with when you start mixing the messaging with those outcomes, you know, is is the does those outcomes, you know, is is the does those outcomes, you know, is is the does does the outcomes justify the ends? Do does the outcomes justify the ends? Do does the outcomes justify the ends? Do the means justify the ends? the means justify the ends? the means justify the ends? Um, or I I Um, or I I Um, or I I should say that the opposite. Do do the should say that the opposite. Do do the should say that the opposite. Do do the ends justify the means? And so, I think ends justify the means? And so, I think ends justify the means? And so, I think there's something about how how there's something about how how there's something about how how important it is now important it is now important it is now uh, in an era of radical transparency uh, in an era of radical transparency uh, in an era of radical transparency where, you know, every single decision where, you know, every single decision where, you know, every single decision that we make as leaders is subject to a that we make as leaders is subject to a that we make as leaders is subject to a lot of a lot of criticism and a lot of lot of a lot of criticism and a lot of lot of a lot of criticism and a lot of openness. So, how do we actually lead openness. So, how do we actually lead openness. So, how do we actually lead well in that context? Mhm. well in that context? Mhm. well in that context? Mhm. Mark, any other thoughts on uh, filling Mark, any other thoughts on uh, filling Mark, any other thoughts on uh, filling the seats and raising the money? the seats and raising the money? the seats and raising the money? You know, I I remember I wrote a book as You know, I I remember I wrote a book as You know, I I remember I wrote a book as Generation Z was just being born called Generation Z was just being born called Generation Z was just being born called Generation Hope. Generation Hope. Generation Hope. And um, I was looking at trends that And um, I was looking at trends that And um, I was looking at trends that were happening around the world were happening around the world were happening around the world realizing this generation was going to realizing this generation was going to realizing this generation was going to become adults in a very unique time in become adults in a very unique time in become adults in a very unique time in the world that we're living in now, the world that we're living in now, the world that we're living in now, which is interesting. To go back and which is interesting. To go back and which is interesting. To go back and read that from, you know, 25 years ago. read that from, you know, 25 years ago. read that from, you know, 25 years ago. And um, I remember when I was sharing And um, I remember when I was sharing And um, I remember when I was sharing the book, a publisher said, "You're the book, a publisher said, "You're the book, a publisher said, "You're going to have to self-publish this."

going to have to self-publish this." going to have to self-publish this." And he goes, "Nobody wants to buy And he goes, "Nobody wants to buy And he goes, "Nobody wants to buy Generation Hope. What they want to buy Generation Hope. What they want to buy Generation Hope. What they want to buy is this is the last Christian is this is the last Christian is this is the last Christian generation." And um, and and so, you know, and I I And um, and and so, you know, and I I remember sitting there go thinking about remember sitting there go thinking about remember sitting there go thinking about compromise, right? And going, "Well, do compromise, right? And going, "Well, do compromise, right? And going, "Well, do I need to paint this better this uglier I need to paint this better this uglier I need to paint this better this uglier picture rather than this hopeful one?" picture rather than this hopeful one?" picture rather than this hopeful one?" And I was like, "Boy, but then I'm just And I was like, "Boy, but then I'm just And I was like, "Boy, but then I'm just falling into this narrative that doesn't falling into this narrative that doesn't falling into this narrative that doesn't help the generation live into the moment help the generation live into the moment help the generation live into the moment that God has for them." And so, I think that God has for them." And so, I think that God has for them." And so, I think it's a very difficult thing to do, but it's a very difficult thing to do, but it's a very difficult thing to do, but we have to really evaluate. And I think we have to really evaluate. And I think we have to really evaluate. And I think we do it without I don't think any I we do it without I don't think any I we do it without I don't think any I don't think there's a lot of malicious don't think there's a lot of malicious don't think there's a lot of malicious intent behind it. Um, you know, there intent behind it. Um, you know, there intent behind it. Um, you know, there may be some people that are really may be some people that are really may be some people that are really crafty that way, but I think most people crafty that way, but I think most people crafty that way, but I think most people really are believing that they're doing really are believing that they're doing really are believing that they're doing the right thing and they don't realize the right thing and they don't realize the right thing and they don't realize that maybe they're actually impeding the that maybe they're actually impeding the that maybe they're actually impeding the gospel's work um in the in the process gospel's work um in the in the process gospel's work um in the in the process of doing that. You know, I think there of doing that. You know, I think there of doing that. You know, I think there is research somewhere in here and you is research somewhere in here and you is research somewhere in here and you can remind me can remind me can remind me that talks about the difference uh that talks about the difference uh that talks about the difference uh between people who have an open mind between people who have an open mind between people who have an open mind and a closed mind. People who need and a closed mind. People who need and a closed mind. People who need definitive answers or closure on a topic definitive answers or closure on a topic definitive answers or closure on a topic like here it is, boom boom boom versus like here it is, boom boom boom versus like here it is, boom boom boom versus well, you know, that's interesting and I well, you know, that's interesting and I well, you know, that's interesting and I think you know, just so this doesn't get think you know, just so this doesn't get think you know, just so this doesn't get sound bite it into something it's not.

sound bite it into something it's not. sound bite it into something it's not. Think all of us here, you know, biblical Think all of us here, you know, biblical Think all of us here, you know, biblical orthodoxy, belief in the resurrection of orthodoxy, belief in the resurrection of orthodoxy, belief in the resurrection of Jesus, that Jesus is God, we're not Jesus, that Jesus is God, we're not Jesus, that Jesus is God, we're not coming at this from a I don't really coming at this from a I don't really coming at this from a I don't really know what I believe anymore perspective. know what I believe anymore perspective. know what I believe anymore perspective. Okay, so just that said Okay, so just that said Okay, so just that said talk about an open mind versus a closed talk about an open mind versus a closed talk about an open mind versus a closed mind and what what the research is mind and what what the research is mind and what what the research is telling us about people in the church telling us about people in the church telling us about people in the church and outside the church. and outside the church. and outside the church. Yeah. So we used two scales. One was a Yeah. So we used two scales. One was a Yeah. So we used two scales. One was a two-factor scale to measure curiosity, two-factor scale to measure curiosity, two-factor scale to measure curiosity, which was basically we defined as being which was basically we defined as being which was basically we defined as being stretching, meaning that I'm doing stretching, meaning that I'm doing stretching, meaning that I'm doing things to um explore the world around things to um explore the world around things to um explore the world around me, to seek out new experiences, me, to seek out new experiences, me, to seek out new experiences, interactions, engagements. So rather interactions, engagements. So rather interactions, engagements. So rather than every night I go to the same than every night I go to the same than every night I go to the same restaurant and order the same food, I restaurant and order the same food, I restaurant and order the same food, I look for new restaurants. That would be look for new restaurants. That would be look for new restaurants. That would be like a one of those qualities of a like a one of those qualities of a like a one of those qualities of a stretching person. And then embracing stretching person. And then embracing stretching person. And then embracing this idea that I'm I'm okay with there this idea that I'm I'm okay with there this idea that I'm I'm okay with there being uncertainty. I'm okay not having being uncertainty. I'm okay not having being uncertainty. I'm okay not having everything completely resolved. So I'm everything completely resolved. So I'm everything completely resolved. So I'm able to sit with this. We used those two able to sit with this. We used those two able to sit with this. We used those two things to measure curiosity in a person.

things to measure curiosity in a person. things to measure curiosity in a person. The other scale that we use is what you The other scale that we use is what you The other scale that we use is what you think you're referring to, which is the think you're referring to, which is the think you're referring to, which is the need for closure scale. That's it. Need need for closure scale. That's it. Need need for closure scale. That's it. Need for closure. for closure. for closure. Yeah. And the need for closure scale Yeah. And the need for closure scale Yeah. And the need for closure scale basically measured how um basically measured how um basically measured how um how comfortable we are with things not how comfortable we are with things not how comfortable we are with things not being wrapped up and being open-ended. being wrapped up and being open-ended. being wrapped up and being open-ended. And so um And so um And so um it's more complex than that, but but the it's more complex than that, but but the it's more complex than that, but but the but it's a lower tolerance for but it's a lower tolerance for but it's a lower tolerance for ambiguity. So like let's take art for ambiguity. So like let's take art for ambiguity. So like let's take art for example. Um I'm go A person who has a example. Um I'm go A person who has a example. Um I'm go A person who has a lower need for a need for closure, a lower need for a need for closure, a lower need for a need for closure, a lower tolerance for need for closure, lower tolerance for need for closure, lower tolerance for need for closure, they're going to have abstract art that they're going to have abstract art that they're going to have abstract art that is very interesting to them. Things that is very interesting to them. Things that is very interesting to them. Things that maybe need a little definition or I I'm maybe need a little definition or I I'm maybe need a little definition or I I'm not really sure what they meant by that. not really sure what they meant by that. not really sure what they meant by that. I have to think about that a little bit I have to think about that a little bit I have to think about that a little bit to figure out where that goes. Whereas to figure out where that goes. Whereas to figure out where that goes. Whereas somebody who has a higher need for somebody who has a higher need for somebody who has a higher need for closure says, "I want to know exactly closure says, "I want to know exactly closure says, "I want to know exactly what that artist is singing. I want to what that artist is singing. I want to what that artist is singing. I want to know what that painting is without any know what that painting is without any know what that painting is without any questions, right?" And so there's a questions, right?" And so there's a questions, right?" And so there's a difference in the way that it comes out difference in the way that it comes out difference in the way that it comes out and it just so happens that practicing and it just so happens that practicing and it just so happens that practicing Christians have a higher need for Christians have a higher need for Christians have a higher need for closure than those that are closure than those that are closure than those that are non-Christians, the general population non-Christians, the general population non-Christians, the general population of the US as a whole, and among the of the US as a whole, and among the of the US as a whole, and among the spiritually curious that we looked at in spiritually curious that we looked at in spiritually curious that we looked at in the book, of almost 20 percentage the book, of almost 20 percentage the book, of almost 20 percentage separation points higher separation points higher separation points higher need for closure. So, there's a pretty need for closure. So, there's a pretty need for closure. So, there's a pretty big gap.

big gap. big gap. What What's your take on that? Open What What's your take on that? Open What What's your take on that? Open versus closed, David. Well, it's funny versus closed, David. Well, it's funny versus closed, David. Well, it's funny cuz cuz cuz Mark hasn't heard me say this before cuz Mark hasn't heard me say this before cuz Mark hasn't heard me say this before cuz I just thought about it, but it reminds I just thought about it, but it reminds I just thought about it, but it reminds me of Buzz and Woody. me of Buzz and Woody. me of Buzz and Woody. So, Woody in the Toy Story is So, Woody in the Toy Story is So, Woody in the Toy Story is has an openness. has an openness. has an openness. this. He has He has openness. He's He's this. He has He has openness. He's He's this. He has He has openness. He's He's lived in the world a little while. He's lived in the world a little while. He's lived in the world a little while. He's He He realizes he's a toy. He's He's He He realizes he's a toy. He's He's He He realizes he's a toy. He's He's comfortable with some of the the comfortable with some of the the comfortable with some of the the tensions about having to flop on the tensions about having to flop on the tensions about having to flop on the ground and not not, you know, interact ground and not not, you know, interact ground and not not, you know, interact with the the human world. And And Buzz with the the human world. And And Buzz with the the human world. And And Buzz has a a very low tolerance for has a a very low tolerance for has a a very low tolerance for ambiguity. He has a need for closure. ambiguity. He has a need for closure. ambiguity. He has a need for closure. Where's Zurg? He's got his space helmet Where's Zurg? He's got his space helmet Where's Zurg? He's got his space helmet on. You'll remember maybe that scene on. You'll remember maybe that scene on. You'll remember maybe that scene where Buzz like come on, Annie, punches where Buzz like come on, Annie, punches where Buzz like come on, Annie, punches the button and it goes up and he thinks the button and it goes up and he thinks the button and it goes up and he thinks he's going to die. And I think a lot of he's going to die. And I think a lot of he's going to die. And I think a lot of Christians It's actually one of the Christians It's actually one of the Christians It's actually one of the things that I imagine sometimes when I things that I imagine sometimes when I things that I imagine sometimes when I go up and speak in front of an audience go up and speak in front of an audience go up and speak in front of an audience is that they're is that they're is that they're all Buzz Lightyear or in a Buzz all Buzz Lightyear or in a Buzz all Buzz Lightyear or in a Buzz Lightyear costume or with their space Lightyear costume or with their space Lightyear costume or with their space suit on. And I'm like, where can where suit on. And I'm like, where can where suit on. And I'm like, where can where can I find that button? Is it a stat? Is can I find that button? Is it a stat? Is can I find that button? Is it a stat? Is it a story? Is it my own story of grief it a story? Is it my own story of grief it a story? Is it my own story of grief and loss and loss and loss is that an unexpected moment where they is that an unexpected moment where they is that an unexpected moment where they find something humorous find something humorous find something humorous you know because people are there to you know because people are there to you know because people are there to hear a boring guy talk about the stats hear a boring guy talk about the stats hear a boring guy talk about the stats and then I'll crack a joke or you know and then I'll crack a joke or you know and then I'll crack a joke or you know whatever and it's just like no we're all whatever and it's just like no we're all whatever and it's just like no we're all humans here and like let's hit that humans here and like let's hit that humans here and like let's hit that button slow down button slow down button slow down you know and I think one of the great you know and I think one of the great you know and I think one of the great privileges of my life has been helping privileges of my life has been helping privileges of my life has been helping cuz I've spent so much time cuz I've spent so much time cuz I've spent so much time um um um talking about the challenges of talking about the challenges of talking about the challenges of this next generation

this next generation this next generation titling books called Unchristian and You titling books called Unchristian and You titling books called Unchristian and You Lost Me. Lost Me. Lost Me. um um um where I'm trying to help parents and where I'm trying to help parents and where I'm trying to help parents and grandparents and others who are so grandparents and others who are so grandparents and others who are so concerned about the next generation concerned about the next generation concerned about the next generation actually hit the button and be like hey actually hit the button and be like hey actually hit the button and be like hey things are going to be okay. God has has things are going to be okay. God has has things are going to be okay. God has has this generation exactly where he wants this generation exactly where he wants this generation exactly where he wants them. um or when I think about that them. um or when I think about that them. um or when I think about that space suit I'm like you know I've got to space suit I'm like you know I've got to space suit I'm like you know I've got to find a way to get people beyond their uh find a way to get people beyond their uh find a way to get people beyond their uh their bias about what they think is their bias about what they think is their bias about what they think is true. Like for example when people hear true. Like for example when people hear true. Like for example when people hear a stat that they that sounds right to a stat that they that sounds right to a stat that they that sounds right to them they are preconditioned to believe them they are preconditioned to believe them they are preconditioned to believe that that the method that that the method that that the method I found my evidence. I found my evidence. I found my evidence. the methodology they never ask me a the methodology they never ask me a the methodology they never ask me a question about the methodology then. question about the methodology then. question about the methodology then. But then if if it's the stat that But then if if it's the stat that But then if if it's the stat that doesn't make sense to them they're like doesn't make sense to them they're like doesn't make sense to them they're like yeah well you know what was your sample yeah well you know what was your sample yeah well you know what was your sample size you know. size you know. size you know. How did you ask the questions? And so How did you ask the questions? And so How did you ask the questions? And so even that reveals our our bias. So I even that reveals our our bias. So I even that reveals our our bias. So I don't know I think Buzz and Woody are don't know I think Buzz and Woody are don't know I think Buzz and Woody are kind of an interesting example. kind of an interesting example. kind of an interesting example. Yeah I hadn't thought about it that way. Yeah I hadn't thought about it that way. Yeah I hadn't thought about it that way. That that resonates. Yeah I know it's That that resonates. Yeah I know it's That that resonates. Yeah I know it's really true and and there's nothing really true and and there's nothing really true and and there's nothing wrong with having a high need for wrong with having a high need for wrong with having a high need for closure I think that's really important closure I think that's really important closure I think that's really important to say in fact Some of it's personality to say in fact Some of it's personality to say in fact Some of it's personality type.

type. type. It's personality type it's a trait but It's personality type it's a trait but It's personality type it's a trait but it is important to go well gee if our it is important to go well gee if our it is important to go well gee if our churches tend to have a little more churches tend to have a little more churches tend to have a little more people that have higher need for closure people that have higher need for closure people that have higher need for closure in them in them in them could that create an environment that could that create an environment that could that create an environment that isn't open to curiosity that isn't isn't open to curiosity that isn't isn't open to curiosity that isn't welcoming to curiosity that might even welcoming to curiosity that might even welcoming to curiosity that might even be a turn off to curio curiosity. Well be a turn off to curio curiosity. Well be a turn off to curio curiosity. Well there's certain there's certain jobs I there's certain there's certain jobs I there's certain there's certain jobs I mean you want you know your ambulance mean you want you know your ambulance mean you want you know your ambulance technician your EMT to have a high need technician your EMT to have a high need technician your EMT to have a high need for closure cuz they need to you know for closure cuz they need to you know for closure cuz they need to you know you know get you out of the the car you know get you out of the the car you know get you out of the the car wreck or they need to find, you know, wreck or they need to find, you know, wreck or they need to find, you know, the the pulse or they like, you know, the the pulse or they like, you know, the the pulse or they like, you know, there are certain there are certain there are certain there are certain there are certain there are certain kinds of jobs as you know, the pilot you kinds of jobs as you know, the pilot you kinds of jobs as you know, the pilot you want a high need for closure. want a high need for closure. want a high need for closure. You got to hit the buttons, you got to You got to hit the buttons, you got to You got to hit the buttons, you got to do things. So, I think there's both do things. So, I think there's both do things. So, I think there's both occupations, I think there's personality occupations, I think there's personality occupations, I think there's personality types, I think there's situations in types, I think there's situations in types, I think there's situations in life um where you know, that's actually life um where you know, that's actually life um where you know, that's actually really good how high need for closure. really good how high need for closure. really good how high need for closure. Um I just think that the real question Um I just think that the real question Um I just think that the real question is is is this question of how do we lean into this question of how do we lean into this question of how do we lean into what the Lord the Holy Spirit is asking what the Lord the Holy Spirit is asking what the Lord the Holy Spirit is asking us to do. And this actually tracks back us to do. And this actually tracks back us to do. And this actually tracks back to something we were talking about to something we were talking about to something we were talking about before about fundraising. before about fundraising. before about fundraising. Having an enemy is the high need for Having an enemy is the high need for Having an enemy is the high need for closure. Like that's the thing. We're closure. Like that's the thing. We're closure. Like that's the thing. We're trying to solve it and and they're bad, trying to solve it and and they're bad, trying to solve it and and they're bad, we're good.

we're good. we're good. And the space suit comes down. Here's And the space suit comes down. Here's And the space suit comes down. Here's how we're going to solve, you know, how we're going to solve, you know, how we're going to solve, you know, we're going to solve all that toxic air we're going to solve all that toxic air we're going to solve all that toxic air out there. out there. out there. So, the other thing to think about is So, the other thing to think about is So, the other thing to think about is like sometimes really good things which like sometimes really good things which like sometimes really good things which work. The problem isn't just that they work. The problem isn't just that they work. The problem isn't just that they work, but they we keep going back to work, but they we keep going back to work, but they we keep going back to them because as a high need for closure, them because as a high need for closure, them because as a high need for closure, one year turns into two years, turns one year turns into two years, turns one year turns into two years, turns into a decade, turns into a a lifetime into a decade, turns into a a lifetime into a decade, turns into a a lifetime of fundraising, which God bless of fundraising, which God bless of fundraising, which God bless fundraisers, but when you keep doing the fundraisers, but when you keep doing the fundraisers, but when you keep doing the same thing because that works same thing because that works same thing because that works and but it works without the Holy Spirit and but it works without the Holy Spirit and but it works without the Holy Spirit or God God asking you to do it. That or God God asking you to do it. That or God God asking you to do it. That that starts where that's where we start that starts where that's where we start that starts where that's where we start like where is Zerg? How can we how can like where is Zerg? How can we how can like where is Zerg? How can we how can we point our our little red laser we point our our little red laser we point our our little red laser button, you know, at him? And I think button, you know, at him? And I think button, you know, at him? And I think that's part of what our invitation is that's part of what our invitation is that's part of what our invitation is whether you're a social researcher or whether you're a social researcher or whether you're a social researcher or Mark who's just an expert at asking Mark who's just an expert at asking Mark who's just an expert at asking really good questions among, you know, really good questions among, you know, really good questions among, you know, non-Christians and I just seen him non-Christians and I just seen him non-Christians and I just seen him interact with my own kids and with interact with my own kids and with interact with my own kids and with others. You know, he's a real master at others. You know, he's a real master at others. You know, he's a real master at inviting people into this warm inviting people into this warm inviting people into this warm conversation. And we're trying to help conversation. And we're trying to help conversation. And we're trying to help invite church leaders into the space invite church leaders into the space invite church leaders into the space that being a pastor, being a church that being a pastor, being a church that being a pastor, being a church leader is by nature you know, an leader is by nature you know, an leader is by nature you know, an exercise of ambiguity and of coming of exercise of ambiguity and of coming of exercise of ambiguity and of coming of helping people come to a kind of closure helping people come to a kind of closure helping people come to a kind of closure on the the life, death, and resurrection on the the life, death, and resurrection on the the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, which is the most important of Jesus, which is the most important of Jesus, which is the most important mission that any of us could be on. I mission that any of us could be on. I mission that any of us could be on. I think one of the things that I see that think one of the things that I see that think one of the things that I see that concerns me concerns me concerns me Um Um Um is I think we're in a moment where a lot is I think we're in a moment where a lot is I think we're in a moment where a lot of churches, church leaders are circling of churches, church leaders are circling of churches, church leaders are circling the wagons. It's like we're in the the wagons. It's like we're in the the wagons. It's like we're in the culture wars.

culture wars. culture wars. We got to protect what we have. We got We got to protect what we have. We got We got to protect what we have. We got to defend the faith. We got to get to defend the faith. We got to get to defend the faith. We got to get louder. We have to get stronger. We have louder. We have to get stronger. We have louder. We have to get stronger. We have to become more powerful. Meanwhile, the to become more powerful. Meanwhile, the to become more powerful. Meanwhile, the numbers continue, you know, as far as numbers continue, you know, as far as numbers continue, you know, as far as engagement with the church to to trend engagement with the church to to trend engagement with the church to to trend downward. Um downward. Um downward. Um and and yet there's an openness in the and and yet there's an openness in the and and yet there's an openness in the culture. So, I guess I guess the culture. So, I guess I guess the culture. So, I guess I guess the question would be a lot of people question would be a lot of people question would be a lot of people who are Christians and say, you know, who are Christians and say, you know, who are Christians and say, you know, there there was a saying a lot of people there there was a saying a lot of people there there was a saying a lot of people had had had 25 years ago. God said it, I believe it, 25 years ago. God said it, I believe it, 25 years ago. God said it, I believe it, that settles it. Right? Probably still that settles it. Right? Probably still that settles it. Right? Probably still It's in your book. There you go. I had It's in your book. There you go. I had It's in your book. There you go. I had it on my I had it on my wall when I was it on my I had it on my wall when I was it on my I had it on my wall when I was a kid. Did you really? a kid. Did you really? a kid. Did you really? Oh, yeah. It was Yeah. Yeah, my mom let Oh, yeah. It was Yeah. Yeah, my mom let Oh, yeah. It was Yeah. Yeah, my mom let me buy that at the Christian bookstore. me buy that at the Christian bookstore. me buy that at the Christian bookstore. God settles it. God settles it. God settles it. Yeah. God said it. Yeah. I believe it. Yeah. God said it. Yeah. I believe it. Yeah. God said it. Yeah. I believe it. That settles it. Wasn't there a That settles it. Wasn't there a That settles it. Wasn't there a follow-up was like God said it, that follow-up was like God said it, that follow-up was like God said it, that settles it? settles it? settles it? Yeah, probably. That's even better. Yeah, probably. That's even better. Yeah, probably. That's even better. Yeah. Well, the the problem was and I Yeah. Well, the the problem was and I Yeah. Well, the the problem was and I think what led me into this whole thing think what led me into this whole thing think what led me into this whole thing is I I'd go to school with that kind of is I I'd go to school with that kind of is I I'd go to school with that kind of an attitude and realize that none of my an attitude and realize that none of my an attitude and realize that none of my non-Christian friends had the same non-Christian friends had the same non-Christian friends had the same attitude.

attitude. attitude. There was no plausibility for that There was no plausibility for that There was no plausibility for that worldview in their in their world and so worldview in their in their world and so worldview in their in their world and so all of a sudden I'm going, wait, this all of a sudden I'm going, wait, this all of a sudden I'm going, wait, this isn't working. You know what I mean? isn't working. You know what I mean? isn't working. You know what I mean? Like I'm not that that's not good enough Like I'm not that that's not good enough Like I'm not that that's not good enough for them. There's one stat I read this for them. There's one stat I read this for them. There's one stat I read this year that almost made my eyes pop out of year that almost made my eyes pop out of year that almost made my eyes pop out of my head. It was 1% of pastors. And this my head. It was 1% of pastors. And this my head. It was 1% of pastors. And this this is tremendous humility on the part this is tremendous humility on the part this is tremendous humility on the part of pastors. of pastors. of pastors. 1% of pastors agreed that our church is 1% of pastors agreed that our church is 1% of pastors agreed that our church is very effective at outreach. very effective at outreach. very effective at outreach. 1%, a single point. In other words, 99% 1%, a single point. In other words, 99% 1%, a single point. In other words, 99% couldn't check that box, which I'm like, couldn't check that box, which I'm like, couldn't check that box, which I'm like, that led to another trend. Evangelism is that led to another trend. Evangelism is that led to another trend. Evangelism is kind of on life support. We've been all kind of on life support. We've been all kind of on life support. We've been all about discipleship. I'm all for about discipleship. I'm all for about discipleship. I'm all for discipleship, but like discipleship, but like discipleship, but like People always asked me, how do you know People always asked me, how do you know People always asked me, how do you know these pastors are telling the truth? these pastors are telling the truth? these pastors are telling the truth? Only 1% Yeah, Only 1% Yeah, Only 1% Yeah, exactly. That's like Like it it's not exactly. That's like Like it it's not exactly. That's like Like it it's not socially favorable to, you know, not socially favorable to, you know, not socially favorable to, you know, not answer that question. answer that question. answer that question. looking? Is anyone looking going to mark looking? Is anyone looking going to mark looking? Is anyone looking going to mark my ballot here? my ballot here? my ballot here? Uh, no, no, no, we're not very good. Uh, no, no, no, we're not very good. Uh, no, no, no, we're not very good. Which is like pastors tend to be Which is like pastors tend to be Which is like pastors tend to be hopelessly optimistic. It's like asking hopelessly optimistic. It's like asking hopelessly optimistic. It's like asking how often do you attend church? Pretty how often do you attend church? Pretty how often do you attend church? Pretty much every week. Well, let's look at the much every week. Well, let's look at the much every week. Well, let's look at the evidence. You were there twice last evidence. You were there twice last evidence. You were there twice last month, once the month before, you know, month, once the month before, you know, month, once the month before, you know, that kind of thing. So, I mean, kudos to that kind of thing. So, I mean, kudos to that kind of thing. So, I mean, kudos to pastors for admitting it.

pastors for admitting it. pastors for admitting it. But that's really concerning. But that's really concerning. But that's really concerning. And and to be fair, I mean, we've been And and to be fair, I mean, we've been And and to be fair, I mean, we've been picking on on people who are like picking on on people who are like picking on on people who are like picking on enemies and all that. I Most picking on enemies and all that. I Most picking on enemies and all that. I Most of the pastors I know, vast majority, of the pastors I know, vast majority, of the pastors I know, vast majority, nobody got up today going, I hope we nobody got up today going, I hope we nobody got up today going, I hope we reach less people. I hope my neighbors reach less people. I hope my neighbors reach less people. I hope my neighbors don't come to faith. don't come to faith. don't come to faith. Yeah, exactly. I I got into this so Yeah, exactly. I I got into this so Yeah, exactly. I I got into this so there could be fewer of us next week there could be fewer of us next week there could be fewer of us next week than there were last week. There's than there were last week. There's than there were last week. There's nobody Nobody's in that universe, right? nobody Nobody's in that universe, right? nobody Nobody's in that universe, right? So, but but So, but but So, but but Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we've all had the pain of that. Yeah, we've all had the pain of that. Yeah, we've all had the pain of that. So, here's the divide. Culture is open. So, here's the divide. Culture is open. So, here's the divide. Culture is open. We're becoming arguably more closed, or We're becoming arguably more closed, or We're becoming arguably more closed, or those who are left are more closed, those who are left are more closed, those who are left are more closed, probably because we feel insecure, probably because we feel insecure, probably because we feel insecure, threatened, watched a lot of people threatened, watched a lot of people threatened, watched a lot of people leave over the years. leave over the years. leave over the years. How do you bridge the gap? Like, how do How do you bridge the gap? Like, how do How do you bridge the gap? Like, how do you begin to, you begin to, you begin to, you know, bridge that divide between you know, bridge that divide between you know, bridge that divide between God said it, I believe it, that settles God said it, I believe it, that settles God said it, I believe it, that settles it, in a world going, so reincarnation, it, in a world going, so reincarnation, it, in a world going, so reincarnation, crystals, like, uh, yeah, man, I'm kind crystals, like, uh, yeah, man, I'm kind crystals, like, uh, yeah, man, I'm kind of that's kind of cool. Well, I think, of that's kind of cool. Well, I think, of that's kind of cool. Well, I think, you know, we have to realize that a lot you know, we have to realize that a lot you know, we have to realize that a lot of our evangelism methods were built at of our evangelism methods were built at of our evangelism methods were built at a time when there was a different a time when there was a different a time when there was a different plausibility in our culture.

plausibility in our culture. plausibility in our culture. And so, the idea of evangelism was how And so, the idea of evangelism was how And so, the idea of evangelism was how do we efficiently communicate the do we efficiently communicate the do we efficiently communicate the message as quickly as possible with as message as quickly as possible with as message as quickly as possible with as many people as possible, and make sure many people as possible, and make sure many people as possible, and make sure that we do it accurately. that we do it accurately. that we do it accurately. And the reality is we are never really And the reality is we are never really And the reality is we are never really taught about the real dynamics of how a taught about the real dynamics of how a taught about the real dynamics of how a person maybe processes their faith, person maybe processes their faith, person maybe processes their faith, And how they deal with that. And that's And how they deal with that. And that's And how they deal with that. And that's harder to teach. harder to teach. harder to teach. Uh I I even had uh somebody who's a very Uh I I even had uh somebody who's a very Uh I I even had uh somebody who's a very much an evangelist who wouldn't endorse much an evangelist who wouldn't endorse much an evangelist who wouldn't endorse my book because he felt people are going my book because he felt people are going my book because he felt people are going to think this is too much work. They're to think this is too much work. They're to think this is too much work. They're going to think there's too many nuances. going to think there's too many nuances. going to think there's too many nuances. I can't do this. I can't do this. I can't do this. And um and uh you know, you you need to And um and uh you know, you you need to And um and uh you know, you you need to make it easier or more straightforward, make it easier or more straightforward, make it easier or more straightforward, something they can do. And I'm like, I something they can do. And I'm like, I something they can do. And I'm like, I think this is what this is more of what think this is what this is more of what think this is what this is more of what they can do, which is just being living they can do, which is just being living they can do, which is just being living with people and doing this doing life with people and doing this doing life with people and doing this doing life with people and recognizing what's going with people and recognizing what's going with people and recognizing what's going on. So, I think we have to have a on. So, I think we have to have a on. So, I think we have to have a different frame. One is this um idea different frame. One is this um idea different frame. One is this um idea that uh that uh that uh I don't have to close the deal with I don't have to close the deal with I don't have to close the deal with every person that I'm sharing my faith every person that I'm sharing my faith every person that I'm sharing my faith with.

with. with. That that the spiritual part of the That that the spiritual part of the That that the spiritual part of the journey that I intersect with their life journey that I intersect with their life journey that I intersect with their life may only be a moment. Kind of like may only be a moment. Kind of like may only be a moment. Kind of like Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, right? Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, right? Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, right? It was a moment for that and then It was a moment for that and then It was a moment for that and then Philip's gone, right? And um Philip's gone, right? And um Philip's gone, right? And um and and and sometimes you have an and and and sometimes you have an and and and sometimes you have an encounter and you don't actually finish encounter and you don't actually finish encounter and you don't actually finish the deal, like the rich young ruler. the deal, like the rich young ruler. the deal, like the rich young ruler. Well, if I don't close the deal, I don't Well, if I don't close the deal, I don't Well, if I don't close the deal, I don't get someone in my get someone in my get someone in my pew next Sunday. Well, but but but also pew next Sunday. Well, but but but also pew next Sunday. Well, but but but also there's a huge burden on the person that there's a huge burden on the person that there's a huge burden on the person that is learning evangelism that I have to is learning evangelism that I have to is learning evangelism that I have to close the deal and make sure that close the deal and make sure that close the deal and make sure that they've clearly said they do not want they've clearly said they do not want they've clearly said they do not want this, right? And so, we're working all this, right? And so, we're working all this, right? And so, we're working all of our spiritual conversations toward of our spiritual conversations toward of our spiritual conversations toward ends rather than being okay with them ends rather than being okay with them ends rather than being okay with them following themselves out. So, one of I following themselves out. So, one of I following themselves out. So, one of I have a list of things that I want to do have a list of things that I want to do have a list of things that I want to do when I get to heaven. One of the top when I get to heaven. One of the top when I get to heaven. One of the top five things I want to find out what five things I want to find out what five things I want to find out what happened to the rich young ruler. happened to the rich young ruler. happened to the rich young ruler. He's one of my favorite. It's such an He's one of my favorite. It's such an He's one of my favorite. It's such an interesting story, right? And he walks interesting story, right? And he walks interesting story, right? And he walks away and Jesus doesn't chase him down away and Jesus doesn't chase him down away and Jesus doesn't chase him down and go, "Hey, you know, and go, "Hey, you know, and go, "Hey, you know, let's keep talking. We can get there, let's keep talking. We can get there, let's keep talking. We can get there, you know." He lets him walk away, right?

you know." He lets him walk away, right? you know." He lets him walk away, right? And um and for a lot of us, we're never And um and for a lot of us, we're never And um and for a lot of us, we're never taught that in evangelism. We're taught taught that in evangelism. We're taught taught that in evangelism. We're taught keep, you know, just find that argument. keep, you know, just find that argument. keep, you know, just find that argument. Find that thing that they're disagreeing Find that thing that they're disagreeing Find that thing that they're disagreeing with and you can get there with them, with and you can get there with them, with and you can get there with them, you know? And Jesus just let him go. And you know? And Jesus just let him go. And you know? And Jesus just let him go. And I believe I believe I believe I honestly believe as I read that I honestly believe as I read that I honestly believe as I read that passage that we are going to see the passage that we are going to see the passage that we are going to see the rich young ruler in the kingdom. I rich young ruler in the kingdom. I rich young ruler in the kingdom. I believe that he walked away, he believe that he walked away, he believe that he walked away, he processed, and at some point he was able processed, and at some point he was able processed, and at some point he was able to do the thing that was being asked of to do the thing that was being asked of to do the thing that was being asked of him and what was required of him. I I him and what was required of him. I I him and what was required of him. I I honestly believe that's good what I said honestly believe that's good what I said honestly believe that's good what I said one of the top five things, "Hey Jesus, one of the top five things, "Hey Jesus, one of the top five things, "Hey Jesus, love you. Thank you." And then it's love you. Thank you." And then it's love you. Thank you." And then it's going to be what happened to the rich going to be what happened to the rich going to be what happened to the rich young ruler? Yeah. Yeah, where is he? young ruler? Yeah. Yeah, where is he? young ruler? Yeah. Yeah, where is he? I'm really curious about could he Is he I'm really curious about could he Is he I'm really curious about could he Is he here? here? here? Um and and because I I because I I I'm Um and and because I I because I I I'm Um and and because I I because I I I'm always looking at those things going, always looking at those things going, always looking at those things going, you know, how do we do that? And I think you know, how do we do that? And I think you know, how do we do that? And I think we also have to look at what's going on we also have to look at what's going on we also have to look at what's going on in the book of Acts where we have the in the book of Acts where we have the in the book of Acts where we have the Jewish Christians that are Jewish Christians that are Jewish Christians that are um they're trying to deal with what the um they're trying to deal with what the um they're trying to deal with what the Holy Spirit is up to. Holy Spirit is up to. Holy Spirit is up to. And the Gentiles are coming to faith and And the Gentiles are coming to faith and And the Gentiles are coming to faith and they're They've been worshipping an they're They've been worshipping an they're They've been worshipping an idol, they've been, you know, engaged in idol, they've been, you know, engaged in idol, they've been, you know, engaged in spiritual prostitution, all this crazy spiritual prostitution, all this crazy spiritual prostitution, all this crazy stuff.

stuff. stuff. And now they're filled with the Holy And now they're filled with the Holy And now they're filled with the Holy Spirit and they are following Jesus. And Spirit and they are following Jesus. And Spirit and they are following Jesus. And there's this clash. Well, they're not there's this clash. Well, they're not there's this clash. Well, they're not circumcised, they're not this, they're circumcised, they're not this, they're circumcised, they're not this, they're not that. I need foreclosure. not that. I need foreclosure. not that. I need foreclosure. And so, you know, the the thing that I'm And so, you know, the the thing that I'm And so, you know, the the thing that I'm seeing with a lot of believers today and seeing with a lot of believers today and seeing with a lot of believers today and I've been doing this long enough to see I've been doing this long enough to see I've been doing this long enough to see people come to faith and and and mature people come to faith and and and mature people come to faith and and and mature in faith, they become versions of in faith, they become versions of in faith, they become versions of themself that could not reach the themself that could not reach the themself that could not reach the unsaved version of themself. unsaved version of themself. unsaved version of themself. Ooh. That's a good one. Ooh. That's a good one. Ooh. That's a good one. They become versions of themselves that They become versions of themselves that They become versions of themselves that could not save the unsaved version of could not save the unsaved version of could not save the unsaved version of themselves. themselves. themselves. They're in their in their their their so They're in their in their their their so They're in their in their their their so like I like I like I am being I've got great fidelity to the am being I've got great fidelity to the am being I've got great fidelity to the word, my doctrine is correct, my life is word, my doctrine is correct, my life is word, my doctrine is correct, my life is in order, and I know what I need to in order, and I know what I need to in order, and I know what I need to expect of the other people around me and expect of the other people around me and expect of the other people around me and I could no longer appeal nor could I I could no longer appeal nor could I I could no longer appeal nor could I extend grace to my unsaved self. extend grace to my unsaved self. extend grace to my unsaved self. I'm just seeing it a lot and it's just I'm just seeing it a lot and it's just I'm just seeing it a lot and it's just shocking to me that that's where our shocking to me that that's where our shocking to me that that's where our discipleship has taken us.

discipleship has taken us. discipleship has taken us. Is that it's taken us to a place of some Is that it's taken us to a place of some Is that it's taken us to a place of some crazy fidelity and like you said at the crazy fidelity and like you said at the crazy fidelity and like you said at the beginning, we're not saying that, you beginning, we're not saying that, you beginning, we're not saying that, you know, that we believe in scripture, we know, that we believe in scripture, we know, that we believe in scripture, we believe in the resurrection, we believe believe in the resurrection, we believe believe in the resurrection, we believe like we are orthodox in every way, shape like we are orthodox in every way, shape like we are orthodox in every way, shape and form. Um, but there is a way of and form. Um, but there is a way of and form. Um, but there is a way of living that out living that out living that out that is restrictive and everything about that is restrictive and everything about that is restrictive and everything about Jesus was make it easy for people to Jesus was make it easy for people to Jesus was make it easy for people to come to me come to me come to me and I will take care of them from that and I will take care of them from that and I will take care of them from that point on. And we haven't learned how to point on. And we haven't learned how to point on. And we haven't learned how to do that in this day and age. We want do that in this day and age. We want do that in this day and age. We want everybody to be sanctified and then we everybody to be sanctified and then we everybody to be sanctified and then we will lead them to Jesus. will lead them to Jesus. will lead them to Jesus. Yeah, convert your behavior, then we'll Yeah, convert your behavior, then we'll Yeah, convert your behavior, then we'll convert you. And Jesus seemed to have a convert you. And Jesus seemed to have a convert you. And Jesus seemed to have a very high tolerance for ambiguity, even very high tolerance for ambiguity, even very high tolerance for ambiguity, even to the point where his disciples are to the point where his disciples are to the point where his disciples are like, "What are you doing talking to a like, "What are you doing talking to a like, "What are you doing talking to a woman? What are you doing hanging out woman? What are you doing hanging out woman? What are you doing hanging out with this person? What about You don't with this person? What about You don't with this person? What about You don't You don't this You don't You don't need You don't this You don't You don't need You don't this You don't You don't need to waste your time with this person." to waste your time with this person." to waste your time with this person." Jesus like, "No, I'm I'm ready." Jesus like, "No, I'm I'm ready." Jesus like, "No, I'm I'm ready." Not sure we are. Uh Not sure we are. Uh Not sure we are. Uh David, you know, one of the one of the David, you know, one of the one of the David, you know, one of the one of the premises is this question, "Is the premises is this question, "Is the premises is this question, "Is the church safe for curious people?" What church safe for curious people?" What church safe for curious people?" What What's your take on that? Uh, not not What's your take on that? Uh, not not What's your take on that? Uh, not not especially. I mean, in in a in a lot of especially. I mean, in in a in a lot of especially. I mean, in in a in a lot of ways, um, I want to give credit to ways, um, I want to give credit to ways, um, I want to give credit to pastors and to church communities. I pastors and to church communities. I pastors and to church communities. I mean, there is a lot of good stuff that mean, there is a lot of good stuff that mean, there is a lot of good stuff that is happening every every week and, you is happening every every week and, you is happening every every week and, you know, uh, know, uh, know, uh, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of church communities and small groups and church communities and small groups and church communities and small groups and discipleship and mentoring, just lots of discipleship and mentoring, just lots of discipleship and mentoring, just lots of like the church is still alive and like the church is still alive and like the church is still alive and active. So, as we're talking about this, active. So, as we're talking about this, active. So, as we're talking about this, there's a lot of good stuff that's there's a lot of good stuff that's there's a lot of good stuff that's happening.

happening. happening. Um, at the same time, uh, not really. Um, at the same time, uh, not really. Um, at the same time, uh, not really. We're We have We need a whole new set of We're We have We need a whole new set of We're We have We need a whole new set of skills uh, to be able to understand and skills uh, to be able to understand and skills uh, to be able to understand and interact with a a curious generation. interact with a a curious generation. interact with a a curious generation. Uh, we need to be able to help people Uh, we need to be able to help people Uh, we need to be able to help people think about the world that they're think about the world that they're think about the world that they're living in. Um, by the way, one of the living in. Um, by the way, one of the living in. Um, by the way, one of the one of the things that has shifted, one of the things that has shifted, one of the things that has shifted, uh, that that didn't exist during the uh, that that didn't exist during the uh, that that didn't exist during the era of kind of mass evangelism and radio era of kind of mass evangelism and radio era of kind of mass evangelism and radio and and television and sort of big and and television and sort of big and and television and sort of big crusades is that I think there's a crusades is that I think there's a crusades is that I think there's a greater awareness of among among our greater awareness of among among our greater awareness of among among our society today and then and then society today and then and then society today and then and then especially among young people about the especially among young people about the especially among young people about the idea of um kind of going back in time idea of um kind of going back in time idea of um kind of going back in time and and reinterpreting the things that and and reinterpreting the things that and and reinterpreting the things that have happened to us and like that I have happened to us and like that I have happened to us and like that I really mean that. So, let me give you an really mean that. So, let me give you an really mean that. So, let me give you an example. We are hearing from more people example. We are hearing from more people example. We are hearing from more people who are deconstructing or who are going who are deconstructing or who are going who are deconstructing or who are going through their faith faith questions through their faith faith questions through their faith faith questions and they go back in time and they say, and they go back in time and they say, and they go back in time and they say, "I wonder what Christian school really "I wonder what Christian school really "I wonder what Christian school really did to me." Um you know, the did to me." Um you know, the did to me." Um you know, the exvangelical movement. And so, when we exvangelical movement. And so, when we exvangelical movement. And so, when we talk about conversion talk about conversion talk about conversion we're not just converting people um we're not just converting people um we're not just converting people um uh sort of in a place in time. We have uh sort of in a place in time. We have uh sort of in a place in time. We have to convert and and just like they they to convert and and just like they they to convert and and just like they they raise their hand, we actually have to raise their hand, we actually have to raise their hand, we actually have to convert their heart, mind, body, and convert their heart, mind, body, and convert their heart, mind, body, and soul. We have to help them understand soul. We have to help them understand soul. We have to help them understand the type of commitment they made. We the type of commitment they made. We the type of commitment they made. We hear other people say, "You know, I made hear other people say, "You know, I made hear other people say, "You know, I made this commitment to Christ, but I think this commitment to Christ, but I think this commitment to Christ, but I think it was just the chord progression during it was just the chord progression during it was just the chord progression during the music and and the lights were out the music and and the lights were out the music and and the lights were out and I'm just not sure what it was I was and I'm just not sure what it was I was and I'm just not sure what it was I was signing up for." Um so, like I'm on the signing up for." Um so, like I'm on the signing up for." Um so, like I'm on the board of a Christian institution board of a Christian institution board of a Christian institution and we talk about it's a it's a higher and we talk about it's a it's a higher and we talk about it's a it's a higher education institution and we talk about education institution and we talk about education institution and we talk about being the scaffolding around these being the scaffolding around these being the scaffolding around these living stones where we're we're trying

living stones where we're we're trying living stones where we're we're trying to help to help to help as a body of Christ like chip away at as a body of Christ like chip away at as a body of Christ like chip away at what God's trying to do in someone's what God's trying to do in someone's what God's trying to do in someone's life, but we realize they need to be life, but we realize they need to be life, but we realize they need to be Christian not just in the now in the now Christian not just in the now in the now Christian not just in the now in the now of their, you know, 18 to 23-year-old of their, you know, 18 to 23-year-old of their, you know, 18 to 23-year-old life, but they're going to be a life, but they're going to be a life, but they're going to be a Christian at 20 at 33 and 43 and 53 and Christian at 20 at 33 and 43 and 53 and Christian at 20 at 33 and 43 and 53 and 63. And and so, this notion of like how 63. And and so, this notion of like how 63. And and so, this notion of like how we convert people um it is about their we convert people um it is about their we convert people um it is about their whole life and about, you know, their whole life and about, you know, their whole life and about, you know, their understanding and excavating their past understanding and excavating their past understanding and excavating their past trauma and understanding how that has trauma and understanding how that has trauma and understanding how that has affected them uh understanding that, you affected them uh understanding that, you affected them uh understanding that, you know, people might actually come and know, people might actually come and know, people might actually come and say, you know, "Did you make this say, you know, "Did you make this say, you know, "Did you make this decision for Christian for decision for Christian for decision for Christian for Christianity?" Like a lot of the Christianity?" Like a lot of the Christianity?" Like a lot of the algorithms now are are um and and sort algorithms now are are um and and sort algorithms now are are um and and sort of of of um in in some of the deconstruction um in in some of the deconstruction um in in some of the deconstruction space is like, "Did God really say? Did space is like, "Did God really say? Did space is like, "Did God really say? Did did that evangelical community? Did did that evangelical community? Did did that evangelical community? Did that's Christian school teacher tell you that's Christian school teacher tell you that's Christian school teacher tell you that it's a 6,000 year old Earth? that it's a 6,000 year old Earth? that it's a 6,000 year old Earth? You know, and and I'm finding in our You know, and and I'm finding in our You know, and and I'm finding in our work with people who deconvert that work with people who deconvert that work with people who deconvert that they're going back in time and they're they're going back in time and they're they're going back in time and they're being asked to answer some questions being asked to answer some questions being asked to answer some questions that we didn't prepare them for when the that we didn't prepare them for when the that we didn't prepare them for when the music was just right and and all the music was just right and and all the music was just right and and all the rest. So, that's why I think they're rest. So, that's why I think they're rest. So, that's why I think they're they're requires a different way of they're requires a different way of they're requires a different way of thinking about the conversion process.

thinking about the conversion process. thinking about the conversion process. There is a moment in time, I believe, There is a moment in time, I believe, There is a moment in time, I believe, when we, when we, when we, you know, come to a saving knowledge, to you know, come to a saving knowledge, to you know, come to a saving knowledge, to use that language, of of what God has use that language, of of what God has use that language, of of what God has done for us on the cross and that we done for us on the cross and that we done for us on the cross and that we don't deserve it and that we are in deep don't deserve it and that we are in deep don't deserve it and that we are in deep need of a savior. need of a savior. need of a savior. But, we have to like work hard at all of But, we have to like work hard at all of But, we have to like work hard at all of those different layers of of helping those different layers of of helping those different layers of of helping people, you know, be be ready for when people, you know, be be ready for when people, you know, be be ready for when someone comes like, "Did Is that really someone comes like, "Did Is that really someone comes like, "Did Is that really You know, like when Jesus talked about You know, like when Jesus talked about You know, like when Jesus talked about the the parable of the seed on the the the the parable of the seed on the the the the parable of the seed on the the path?" And the the birds are coming up path?" And the the birds are coming up path?" And the the birds are coming up and picking up the seed say, "Did that and picking up the seed say, "Did that and picking up the seed say, "Did that really Did Is that what you really really Did Is that what you really really Did Is that what you really meant? Is that Did you really make a meant? Is that Did you really make a meant? Is that Did you really make a commitment to this? Is this really Is commitment to this? Is this really Is commitment to this? Is this really Is this really true?" And so, I think this really true?" And so, I think this really true?" And so, I think that's a a part. And so, this whole new that's a a part. And so, this whole new that's a a part. And so, this whole new set of skills is required of us, set of skills is required of us, set of skills is required of us, um to help this generation, you know, um to help this generation, you know, um to help this generation, you know, understand what it means to live in the understand what it means to live in the understand what it means to live in the totality of following Jesus in our lives totality of following Jesus in our lives totality of following Jesus in our lives today. So, we get a lot of business today. So, we get a lot of business today. So, we get a lot of business leaders listening, a lot of church leaders listening, a lot of church leaders listening, a lot of church leaders listening, and the business leaders listening, and the business leaders listening, and the business leaders are mostly involved in the leaders are mostly involved in the leaders are mostly involved in the Christian faith, probably in the church. Christian faith, probably in the church. Christian faith, probably in the church. You mentioned it's not one and done, one You mentioned it's not one and done, one You mentioned it's not one and done, one conversation, you know, in the ride conversation, you know, in the ride conversation, you know, in the ride between the airport and my destination, between the airport and my destination, between the airport and my destination, the person gave his life to Christ. And the person gave his life to Christ. And the person gave his life to Christ. And and I agree with that.

and I agree with that. and I agree with that. And that's Although, that can be And that's Although, that can be And that's Although, that can be happen happen and that's important. happen happen and that's important. happen happen and that's important. Yeah. Yeah, that can happen, for sure, Yeah. Yeah, that can happen, for sure, Yeah. Yeah, that can happen, for sure, and it does happen. But, when you engage and it does happen. But, when you engage and it does happen. But, when you engage the spiritual curious spiritually the spiritual curious spiritually the spiritual curious spiritually curious, let's start here. curious, let's start here. curious, let's start here. What are some of the adjustments you What are some of the adjustments you What are some of the adjustments you need to make? And let's start with the need to make? And let's start with the need to make? And let's start with the weekend service, cuz what do pastors weekend service, cuz what do pastors weekend service, cuz what do pastors think about the weekend service, the think about the weekend service, the think about the weekend service, the sermon? sermon? sermon? What changes do you think are helpful, What changes do you think are helpful, What changes do you think are helpful, uh in terms of our weekend service? And uh in terms of our weekend service? And uh in terms of our weekend service? And I I I come out of 25 years of preaching I I I come out of 25 years of preaching I I I come out of 25 years of preaching to a church that was about 50 to 55% to a church that was about 50 to 55% to a church that was about 50 to 55% unchurched people, first time guests. unchurched people, first time guests. unchurched people, first time guests. So, I'm this is this is my bread and So, I'm this is this is my bread and So, I'm this is this is my bread and butter. This is what I do. and there butter. This is what I do. and there butter. This is what I do. and there were constant adjustments, not in were constant adjustments, not in were constant adjustments, not in theology, not watering it down, but just theology, not watering it down, but just theology, not watering it down, but just in approach, just in trying to have a in approach, just in trying to have a in approach, just in trying to have a conversation that says, "Hey, you're conversation that says, "Hey, you're conversation that says, "Hey, you're intelligent, you're probably thinking intelligent, you're probably thinking intelligent, you're probably thinking this, but have you thought about this?" this, but have you thought about this?" this, but have you thought about this?" Like, little shifts like that, rather Like, little shifts like that, rather Like, little shifts like that, rather than here's why we're right, here's why than here's why we're right, here's why than here's why we're right, here's why you're wrong. Well, one shift is to have you're wrong. Well, one shift is to have you're wrong. Well, one shift is to have as many as many as many testimonies from laypeople as possible. testimonies from laypeople as possible. testimonies from laypeople as possible. Uh and why we're seeing that in the Uh and why we're seeing that in the Uh and why we're seeing that in the research is that the idea of uh research is that the idea of uh research is that the idea of uh professional ministry leaders, which I professional ministry leaders, which I professional ministry leaders, which I am a firm believer in both theologically am a firm believer in both theologically am a firm believer in both theologically and uh practically, that we should be and uh practically, that we should be and uh practically, that we should be paid for our ministry work. Uh but if paid for our ministry work. Uh but if paid for our ministry work. Uh but if you get a paycheck from a ministry you get a paycheck from a ministry you get a paycheck from a ministry organization, a church leader, uh you're organization, a church leader, uh you're organization, a church leader, uh you're conflicted. You're you're not conflicted. You're you're not conflicted. You're you're not disqualified, but it's going to be like, disqualified, but it's going to be like, disqualified, but it's going to be like, well, of course you're going to say well, of course you're going to say well, of course you're going to say that.

that. that. I'm not I'm not saying that your that I'm not I'm not saying that your that I'm not I'm not saying that your that your conflict their conflicts aren't uh your conflict their conflicts aren't uh your conflict their conflicts aren't uh uh uh uh legitimate. I mean, you're not you you legitimate. I mean, you're not you you legitimate. I mean, you're not you you believe this, but the problem is that believe this, but the problem is that believe this, but the problem is that younger people, especially unchurched, younger people, especially unchurched, younger people, especially unchurched, they're like, well, this is why the they're like, well, this is why the they're like, well, this is why the criticism of money is so criticism of money is so criticism of money is so uh evergreen in our world is that people uh evergreen in our world is that people uh evergreen in our world is that people see they see the paid ministry staff, see they see the paid ministry staff, see they see the paid ministry staff, and they again, pastors on average don't and they again, pastors on average don't and they again, pastors on average don't make very much as a form of make very much as a form of make very much as a form of conversation. No one gets into it for conversation. No one gets into it for conversation. No one gets into it for the money, right? the money, right? the money, right? Yeah, and stewardship campaigns cost you Yeah, and stewardship campaigns cost you Yeah, and stewardship campaigns cost you money because you're also contributing money because you're also contributing money because you're also contributing to it. to it. to it. 100%. But what if we what if to add to 100%. But what if we what if to add to 100%. But what if we what if to add to the work of professional ministry, we the work of professional ministry, we the work of professional ministry, we really embrace the idea of the really embrace the idea of the really embrace the idea of the priesthood of all believers and asked priesthood of all believers and asked priesthood of all believers and asked more frequently for laypeople to tell more frequently for laypeople to tell more frequently for laypeople to tell their story, and we interviewed them in their story, and we interviewed them in their story, and we interviewed them in short little snippets. We do this a lot short little snippets. We do this a lot short little snippets. We do this a lot in different you know, during the in different you know, during the in different you know, during the offering or whatever, but just integrate offering or whatever, but just integrate offering or whatever, but just integrate the testimony of laypeople because the testimony of laypeople because the testimony of laypeople because uh for a watching world, they will be uh for a watching world, they will be uh for a watching world, they will be like, "Oh, well, this person doesn't like, "Oh, well, this person doesn't like, "Oh, well, this person doesn't have anything to like, let Jesus story, have anything to like, let Jesus story, have anything to like, let Jesus story, we overcome by the blood of the lamb and we overcome by the blood of the lamb and we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of the testimony of the the word of the testimony of the the word of the testimony of the saints." Let saints who have been saints." Let saints who have been saints." Let saints who have been transformed by Jesus tell their story.

transformed by Jesus tell their story. transformed by Jesus tell their story. Uh and and and and then furthermore, Uh and and and and then furthermore, Uh and and and and then furthermore, integrate as much as you possibly can. integrate as much as you possibly can. integrate as much as you possibly can. There are these different traditions There are these different traditions There are these different traditions that that listen in uh to a podcast like that that listen in uh to a podcast like that that listen in uh to a podcast like this, but as much as you feel this, but as much as you feel this, but as much as you feel appropriate within your tradition and appropriate within your tradition and appropriate within your tradition and and it might be more than you feel and it might be more than you feel and it might be more than you feel comfortable with, allow the Holy Spirit comfortable with, allow the Holy Spirit comfortable with, allow the Holy Spirit to work and prayer to work. Allow God to to work and prayer to work. Allow God to to work and prayer to work. Allow God to speak into the hearts of people. Just we speak into the hearts of people. Just we speak into the hearts of people. Just we were at an event together, the three of were at an event together, the three of were at an event together, the three of us, and we just heard a testimony of us, and we just heard a testimony of us, and we just heard a testimony of someone who was a someone who was a someone who was a Remember Bianca was talking about this, Remember Bianca was talking about this, Remember Bianca was talking about this, this this atheist who had come to our this this atheist who had come to our this this atheist who had come to our church church church and who had um and who had um and who had um uh who had a healing in the service. And uh who had a healing in the service. And uh who had a healing in the service. And you know, like God is still alive and you know, like God is still alive and you know, like God is still alive and active, and so that is another way for active, and so that is another way for active, and so that is another way for us to say, you know, like let's we're us to say, you know, like let's we're us to say, you know, like let's we're opening up a space here, not just for opening up a space here, not just for opening up a space here, not just for the program that we humans have created the program that we humans have created the program that we humans have created or for us who are professionals, but we or for us who are professionals, but we or for us who are professionals, but we are the people of God alive to the work are the people of God alive to the work are the people of God alive to the work of Jesus in our lives, and we expect him of Jesus in our lives, and we expect him of Jesus in our lives, and we expect him to be a part of to be a part of to be a part of the times that we're together. And we we the times that we're together. And we we the times that we're together. And we we are are waiting and anticipating him to are are waiting and anticipating him to are are waiting and anticipating him to show up in that way. And we're seeing show up in that way. And we're seeing show up in that way. And we're seeing evidence all all throughout the research evidence all all throughout the research evidence all all throughout the research that those kinds of experiences with that those kinds of experiences with that those kinds of experiences with God, with answered prayer, with a book God, with answered prayer, with a book God, with answered prayer, with a book with the the reality that, oh, these with the the reality that, oh, these with the the reality that, oh, these aren't just paid professionals, they're aren't just paid professionals, they're aren't just paid professionals, they're telling a story of their telling a story of their telling a story of their you know, their experience.

you know, their experience. you know, their experience. You know, like they're they're talking You know, like they're they're talking You know, like they're they're talking at just was interviewing Lisa Fields for at just was interviewing Lisa Fields for at just was interviewing Lisa Fields for a project and she was saying, you know, a project and she was saying, you know, a project and she was saying, you know, when we can talk as leaders out of our when we can talk as leaders out of our when we can talk as leaders out of our healed pain and how Jesus has helped us healed pain and how Jesus has helped us healed pain and how Jesus has helped us through our own trauma, through our own trauma, through our own trauma, like people are are just hungry for that like people are are just hungry for that like people are are just hungry for that kind of story. So, those are some things kind of story. So, those are some things kind of story. So, those are some things that I think are are are ways in the that I think are are are ways in the that I think are are are ways in the preaching and in the weekend services preaching and in the weekend services preaching and in the weekend services that we can make God alive to a that we can make God alive to a that we can make God alive to a spiritually curious generation. spiritually curious generation. spiritually curious generation. Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Today's episode is brought to you by Thrive. So, what makes a leader Thrive. So, what makes a leader Thrive. So, what makes a leader unforgettable? You know, it's not their unforgettable? You know, it's not their unforgettable? You know, it's not their title or their talent, often it's their title or their talent, often it's their title or their talent, often it's their trait. So, in a free 60-minute webinar, trait. So, in a free 60-minute webinar, trait. So, in a free 60-minute webinar, Mark Clark, a pastor at Bayside Church, Mark Clark, a pastor at Bayside Church, Mark Clark, a pastor at Bayside Church, will share the five essential traits will share the five essential traits will share the five essential traits that define truly great leaders. So, that define truly great leaders. So, that define truly great leaders. So, whether you're leading a church, a team, whether you're leading a church, a team, whether you're leading a church, a team, or or family, you'll walk away with or or family, you'll walk away with or or family, you'll walk away with actionable strategies to inspire actionable strategies to inspire actionable strategies to inspire confidence, build trust, and create confidence, build trust, and create confidence, build trust, and create lasting impact. So, don't miss this lasting impact. So, don't miss this lasting impact. So, don't miss this opportunity to learn from one of the opportunity to learn from one of the opportunity to learn from one of the most respected voices in leadership. most respected voices in leadership. most respected voices in leadership. Spaces are limited. Reserve yours now at Spaces are limited. Reserve yours now at Spaces are limited. Reserve yours now at thriveconference.org.

thriveconference.org. thriveconference.org. That's thriveconference.org. That's thriveconference.org. That's thriveconference.org. That's a hard one for pastors to hear That's a hard one for pastors to hear That's a hard one for pastors to hear because I think most pastors are not in because I think most pastors are not in because I think most pastors are not in it for the money, they're not in it for it for the money, they're not in it for it for the money, they're not in it for the prestige. the prestige. the prestige. But, you don't realize it's kind of like But, you don't realize it's kind of like But, you don't realize it's kind of like me saying, "You should listen to the me saying, "You should listen to the me saying, "You should listen to the Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast." or Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast." or Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast." or you saying David, "Hey, Barna research you saying David, "Hey, Barna research you saying David, "Hey, Barna research is pretty good, right?" People are going is pretty good, right?" People are going is pretty good, right?" People are going to be like, "Well, of course you're to be like, "Well, of course you're to be like, "Well, of course you're going to say that. That's, you know, going to say that. That's, you know, going to say that. That's, you know, look at my book, it's amazing." Right? look at my book, it's amazing." Right? look at my book, it's amazing." Right? Uh of course we're going to say that. Uh of course we're going to say that. Uh of course we're going to say that. And and that's not why we got into And and that's not why we got into And and that's not why we got into ministry. It is because we really are in ministry. It is because we really are in ministry. It is because we really are in love with Jesus and we really believe he love with Jesus and we really believe he love with Jesus and we really believe he is the hope of the world. But, what was is the hope of the world. But, what was is the hope of the world. But, what was the stat? the stat? the stat? It's a Barna stat, like 46% It's a Barna stat, like 46% It's a Barna stat, like 46% of a congregation, the congregation uh of a congregation, the congregation uh of a congregation, the congregation uh at some level mistrust their pastor, at some level mistrust their pastor, at some level mistrust their pastor, doesn't see their pastor as an doesn't see their pastor as an doesn't see their pastor as an authority. Can Can you nuance that a authority. Can Can you nuance that a authority. Can Can you nuance that a little bit? Like uh it was it was it was little bit? Like uh it was it was it was little bit? Like uh it was it was it was a little disheartening. I don't remember a little disheartening. I don't remember a little disheartening. I don't remember the stat offhand, but I uh I do think the stat offhand, but I uh I do think the stat offhand, but I uh I do think that the problem is one of distraction that the problem is one of distraction that the problem is one of distraction and one of indifference and one of of and one of indifference and one of of and one of indifference and one of of credibility into the issues of life uh credibility into the issues of life uh credibility into the issues of life uh that that a person from Monday through that that a person from Monday through that that a person from Monday through Saturday has to has to wrestle through.

Saturday has to has to wrestle through. Saturday has to has to wrestle through. So, again, So, again, So, again, I think the work of churches, the the I think the work of churches, the the I think the work of churches, the the the the strength of the church in North the the strength of the church in North the the strength of the church in North America is stronger than any other America is stronger than any other America is stronger than any other developed nation in the in the world. developed nation in the in the world. developed nation in the in the world. And and it is it is uh uh it is truly, And and it is it is uh uh it is truly, And and it is it is uh uh it is truly, you know, a a miracle to see the you know, a a miracle to see the you know, a a miracle to see the strength of the church in the US. And it strength of the church in the US. And it strength of the church in the US. And it is in decline. It is it is facing a lot is in decline. It is it is facing a lot is in decline. It is it is facing a lot of pressure. Yeah, I would if I could of pressure. Yeah, I would if I could of pressure. Yeah, I would if I could jump in, you know, I think jump in, you know, I think jump in, you know, I think what we have to understand is that what we have to understand is that what we have to understand is that church church church church right now is very much serving church right now is very much serving church right now is very much serving the congregants and there's nothing the congregants and there's nothing the congregants and there's nothing wrong with that. wrong with that. wrong with that. And um and sometimes when give something And um and sometimes when give something And um and sometimes when give something a dual purpose, it those two those two a dual purpose, it those two those two a dual purpose, it those two those two things are in tension. things are in tension. things are in tension. And so I honestly believe that in order And so I honestly believe that in order And so I honestly believe that in order to reach this next generation, it may be to reach this next generation, it may be to reach this next generation, it may be that we have to provide halfway houses that we have to provide halfway houses that we have to provide halfway houses to the church. Somewhere that they're to the church. Somewhere that they're to the church. Somewhere that they're able to experience Jesus or experience able to experience Jesus or experience able to experience Jesus or experience the questions they're having. I'm I'm the questions they're having. I'm I'm the questions they're having. I'm I'm really a fan of the Alpha program. really a fan of the Alpha program. really a fan of the Alpha program. going to say, is Alpha a halfway house? going to say, is Alpha a halfway house? going to say, is Alpha a halfway house? Alpha's a halfway house. And in fact, a Alpha's a halfway house. And in fact, a Alpha's a halfway house. And in fact, a lot of what inspired Faith for Curious lot of what inspired Faith for Curious lot of what inspired Faith for Curious was watching a church implement Alpha was watching a church implement Alpha was watching a church implement Alpha for the first time and watching these for the first time and watching these for the first time and watching these congregants trying to lead these congregants trying to lead these congregants trying to lead these conversations conversations conversations and they want to turn into a Bible and they want to turn into a Bible and they want to turn into a Bible study.

study. study. You know, You know, You know, Alpha doesn't let you do that. Alpha doesn't let you do that. Alpha doesn't let you do that. And you can't do that, right? And so And you can't do that, right? And so And you can't do that, right? And so that that's not the point. That's not that that's not the point. That's not that that's not the point. That's not the journey that we're that we're the journey that we're that we're the journey that we're that we're bringing these people on. And so um I bringing these people on. And so um I bringing these people on. And so um I think giving finding other places think giving finding other places think giving finding other places outside of the service can be really outside of the service can be really outside of the service can be really helpful to um helpful to um helpful to um to helping onboard people that are to helping onboard people that are to helping onboard people that are curious about the faith. So, you know, curious about the faith. So, you know, curious about the faith. So, you know, we've had Nicky Gumbel on and others we've had Nicky Gumbel on and others we've had Nicky Gumbel on and others from Alpha, but what does Alpha do so from Alpha, but what does Alpha do so from Alpha, but what does Alpha do so well that all of us should be taking well that all of us should be taking well that all of us should be taking notes from? Well, some of their notes from? Well, some of their notes from? Well, some of their principles and we've actually done some principles and we've actually done some principles and we've actually done some research with Alpha looking at uh research with Alpha looking at uh research with Alpha looking at uh unchurched people and their unchurched people and their unchurched people and their expectations, but it is listening expectations, but it is listening expectations, but it is listening without judgment, one of the top needs without judgment, one of the top needs without judgment, one of the top needs of the unchurched, one of the ways I of the unchurched, one of the ways I of the unchurched, one of the ways I think Alpha orients towards hosting think Alpha orients towards hosting think Alpha orients towards hosting people. people. people. Um they don't force a conclusion. Um they don't force a conclusion. Um they don't force a conclusion. Uh some of the things we were sort of an Uh some of the things we were sort of an Uh some of the things we were sort of an a tolerance for ambiguity um a tolerance for ambiguity um a tolerance for ambiguity um um in the right ways in the right um in the right ways in the right um in the right ways in the right application. Um of course, they also do application. Um of course, they also do application. Um of course, they also do the sort of like it's a it's a round the the sort of like it's a it's a round the the sort of like it's a it's a round the table, there's a hospitality uh table, there's a hospitality uh table, there's a hospitality uh orientation. A lot of people say food is orientation. A lot of people say food is orientation. A lot of people say food is a big a big a big Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think those are some of the things, but the those are some of the things, but the those are some of the things, but the research really underscores that when research really underscores that when research really underscores that when when cuz there's a lot of good evidence when cuz there's a lot of good evidence when cuz there's a lot of good evidence in the work we've done for more than a in the work we've done for more than a in the work we've done for more than a decade um and even stretching for for decade um and even stretching for for decade um and even stretching for for many decades with with uh George Barna many decades with with uh George Barna many decades with with uh George Barna did a book called Evangelism that works did a book called Evangelism that works did a book called Evangelism that works and this notion that people are really and this notion that people are really and this notion that people are really hungry for for something that is real.

hungry for for something that is real. hungry for for something that is real. And when you can help introduce them to And when you can help introduce them to And when you can help introduce them to the realest thing, the truest story the realest thing, the truest story the realest thing, the truest story about ourselves, which is that our hope about ourselves, which is that our hope about ourselves, which is that our hope is found in Jesus, they can't help but is found in Jesus, they can't help but is found in Jesus, they can't help but but be open to that. But we just have to but be open to that. But we just have to but be open to that. But we just have to be, be, be, you know, willing participants in that you know, willing participants in that you know, willing participants in that process with them. process with them. process with them. Yeah, I jump in I'd say two things. One Yeah, I jump in I'd say two things. One Yeah, I jump in I'd say two things. One is it's really hard when we read the is it's really hard when we read the is it's really hard when we read the scripture scripture scripture to understand how fully to understand how fully to understand how fully accepted, loved, and seen accepted, loved, and seen accepted, loved, and seen people who encountered Jesus people who encountered Jesus people who encountered Jesus were. Like like when they sought when were. Like like when they sought when were. Like like when they sought when Jesus when they met him, right? The Jesus when they met him, right? The Jesus when they met him, right? The woman at the well. woman at the well. woman at the well. Something is incredibly safe and Something is incredibly safe and Something is incredibly safe and remarkable in that moment that allows remarkable in that moment that allows remarkable in that moment that allows for that interaction to happen. We it's for that interaction to happen. We it's for that interaction to happen. We it's hard to pick that up through the hard to pick that up through the hard to pick that up through the biblical text. So a lot of times we get biblical text. So a lot of times we get biblical text. So a lot of times we get into this whole, "Hey, we got to tell into this whole, "Hey, we got to tell into this whole, "Hey, we got to tell them the truth, even if it hurts." You them the truth, even if it hurts." You them the truth, even if it hurts." You know, the the truth hurts. You know, the know, the the truth hurts. You know, the know, the the truth hurts. You know, the only way to love people is by telling only way to love people is by telling only way to love people is by telling them the honest truth. And what we don't them the honest truth. And what we don't them the honest truth. And what we don't realize is that there's an actual realize is that there's an actual realize is that there's an actual effective part of really caring about a effective part of really caring about a effective part of really caring about a person. In fact, one of the hardest person. In fact, one of the hardest person. In fact, one of the hardest things about writing Faith for the things about writing Faith for the things about writing Faith for the Curious Curious Curious was making sure that it was about really was making sure that it was about really was making sure that it was about really caring about the people and not just caring about the people and not just caring about the people and not just this is a trick. This is a tactic. This this is a trick. This is a tactic. This this is a trick. This is a tactic. This is a technique you can use. This is a is a technique you can use. This is a is a technique you can use. This is a strategy you can use on Sunday. This is strategy you can use on Sunday. This is strategy you can use on Sunday. This is going to get more people in your door going to get more people in your door going to get more people in your door because those things don't embody the because those things don't embody the because those things don't embody the relational relational relational component that that's required to reach component that that's required to reach component that that's required to reach the spiritual And so I think Alpha the spiritual And so I think Alpha the spiritual And so I think Alpha creates a context whereby people over creates a context whereby people over creates a context whereby people over time realize you really do care about

time realize you really do care about time realize you really do care about me. me. me. You have heard me say some things that You have heard me say some things that You have heard me say some things that are hurtful to you and yet you have are hurtful to you and yet you have are hurtful to you and yet you have endured on this journey with me and endured on this journey with me and endured on this journey with me and somehow this allows them to see Jesus in somehow this allows them to see Jesus in somehow this allows them to see Jesus in a in a really powerful way. And I think a in a really powerful way. And I think a in a really powerful way. And I think the problem is a lot of times we're the problem is a lot of times we're the problem is a lot of times we're presenting Jesus as an idea. We're not presenting Jesus as an idea. We're not presenting Jesus as an idea. We're not presenting Jesus as a genuine presenting Jesus as a genuine presenting Jesus as a genuine relationship that we have. And so relationship that we have. And so relationship that we have. And so David's point about having people share David's point about having people share David's point about having people share their testimonies, have them share their their testimonies, have them share their their testimonies, have them share their experiences. You know, Youth for Christ experiences. You know, Youth for Christ experiences. You know, Youth for Christ is a really wonderful um model. It's is a really wonderful um model. It's is a really wonderful um model. It's actually become their logo. It's Three actually become their logo. It's Three actually become their logo. It's Three Story Evangelism. I was involved in in Story Evangelism. I was involved in in Story Evangelism. I was involved in in launching that um at DCLA years and launching that um at DCLA years and launching that um at DCLA years and years and years ago. years and years ago. years and years ago. And the idea starts with what is your And the idea starts with what is your And the idea starts with what is your story? So always assuming that somebody story? So always assuming that somebody story? So always assuming that somebody has a spiritual backstory or a journey has a spiritual backstory or a journey has a spiritual backstory or a journey that they're on. that they're on. that they're on. The second thing is um can I share with The second thing is um can I share with The second thing is um can I share with you my story? you my story? you my story? And then connecting their story to God's And then connecting their story to God's And then connecting their story to God's story. Mhm. And it's a real simple story. Mhm. And it's a real simple story. Mhm. And it's a real simple model. model. model. Um but I think that is the the way that Um but I think that is the the way that Um but I think that is the the way that we actually introduce people to to Jesus we actually introduce people to to Jesus we actually introduce people to to Jesus rather than saying rather than saying rather than saying hey, here are here's the way the hey, here are here's the way the hey, here are here's the way the mechanics of the universe works.

mechanics of the universe works. mechanics of the universe works. And um Jesus offers a way out of that. I And um Jesus offers a way out of that. I And um Jesus offers a way out of that. I don't know that that works in today's don't know that that works in today's don't know that that works in today's um curious culture. Well, and you hinted um curious culture. Well, and you hinted um curious culture. Well, and you hinted at it before, but I think, you know, at it before, but I think, you know, at it before, but I think, you know, evangelism or apologetics, the way a lot evangelism or apologetics, the way a lot evangelism or apologetics, the way a lot of us were raised on it or heard about of us were raised on it or heard about of us were raised on it or heard about it, and it's still shared widely, is it, and it's still shared widely, is it, and it's still shared widely, is sort of based on sort of based on sort of based on the Enlightenment, rationalism, and an the Enlightenment, rationalism, and an the Enlightenment, rationalism, and an assumed framework that you've had assumed framework that you've had assumed framework that you've had something you once endorsed, you once something you once endorsed, you once something you once endorsed, you once believed, that you walked away from. Now believed, that you walked away from. Now believed, that you walked away from. Now I'm going to convince you why you need I'm going to convince you why you need I'm going to convince you why you need to go back. to go back. to go back. And that may have worked really well for And that may have worked really well for And that may have worked really well for a century or so. a century or so. a century or so. And that culture doesn't exist anymore. And that culture doesn't exist anymore. And that culture doesn't exist anymore. It's kind of went away. You know, we It's kind of went away. You know, we It's kind of went away. You know, we people are not we're now probably not people are not we're now probably not people are not we're now probably not post-Christian, but in some generations post-Christian, but in some generations post-Christian, but in some generations pre-Christian. pre-Christian. pre-Christian. No idea about Jesus, depending on where No idea about Jesus, depending on where No idea about Jesus, depending on where you live. And and they're not walking you live. And and they're not walking you live. And and they're not walking away from anything, and it's not a away from anything, and it's not a away from anything, and it's not a rationalistic framework anymore, right? rationalistic framework anymore, right? rationalistic framework anymore, right? As much as we kind of some of us wish it As much as we kind of some of us wish it As much as we kind of some of us wish it was, it's not. And according to Maslow's was, it's not. And according to Maslow's was, it's not. And according to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, most people aren't hierarchy of needs, most people aren't hierarchy of needs, most people aren't sitting around feeling a lack of sitting around feeling a lack of sitting around feeling a lack of self-actualization. Right. Right.

self-actualization. Right. Right. self-actualization. Right. Right. Especially in North American context, Especially in North American context, Especially in North American context, people are feeling pretty fulfilled. And people are feeling pretty fulfilled. And people are feeling pretty fulfilled. And so one of the approaches that we have to so one of the approaches that we have to so one of the approaches that we have to look at look at look at in reaching the spiritually curious is in reaching the spiritually curious is in reaching the spiritually curious is that they are seeking 74% of Americans that they are seeking 74% of Americans that they are seeking 74% of Americans tell us they want to grow spiritually. tell us they want to grow spiritually. tell us they want to grow spiritually. Okay, why? What are they looking for? Okay, why? What are they looking for? Okay, why? What are they looking for? It's actually not because they're lost It's actually not because they're lost It's actually not because they're lost in the universe and they're overwhelmed in the universe and they're overwhelmed in the universe and they're overwhelmed and they don't know what their purpose and they don't know what their purpose and they don't know what their purpose is. is. is. Most of it is there's something that Most of it is there's something that Most of it is there's something that they're doing that's really deeply they're doing that's really deeply they're doing that's really deeply satisfying and they're trying to get satisfying and they're trying to get satisfying and they're trying to get more of that. And they're think that more of that. And they're think that more of that. And they're think that thinking that maybe spiritual growth, thinking that maybe spiritual growth, thinking that maybe spiritual growth, however that comes to them, however that comes to them, however that comes to them, is the way or the path toward wholeness. is the way or the path toward wholeness. is the way or the path toward wholeness. And so, what I think that little thing And so, what I think that little thing And so, what I think that little thing is is is is is is the the the image of God inside of them image of God inside of them image of God inside of them is broken because of sin, but it's is broken because of sin, but it's is broken because of sin, but it's there, a little remnant of it, and it's there, a little remnant of it, and it's there, a little remnant of it, and it's trying to get out. It's trying to grow trying to get out. It's trying to grow trying to get out. It's trying to grow bigger. bigger. bigger. And they're trying to I want to And they're trying to I want to And they're trying to I want to experience more justice in the world. I experience more justice in the world. I experience more justice in the world. I want to be more compassionate. I want want to be more compassionate. I want want to be more compassionate. I want more intimacy. I want to be more more intimacy. I want to be more more intimacy. I want to be more creative. Whatever that thing is of the creative. Whatever that thing is of the creative. Whatever that thing is of the image of God in them that they're trying image of God in them that they're trying image of God in them that they're trying to see more of.

to see more of. to see more of. And spirituality is a path to that, but And spirituality is a path to that, but And spirituality is a path to that, but it will never fully accomplish it will never fully accomplish it will never fully accomplish what they're really hoping for without what they're really hoping for without what they're really hoping for without Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. And but if we start there, we have a And but if we start there, we have a And but if we start there, we have a common ground. Cuz if you're passionate common ground. Cuz if you're passionate common ground. Cuz if you're passionate about something that's a justice issue, about something that's a justice issue, about something that's a justice issue, I I I'm passionate about that. I I I'm passionate about that. I I I'm passionate about that. If you're a creative, I'm creative. If If you're a creative, I'm creative. If If you're a creative, I'm creative. If you're wanting more intimacy in your you're wanting more intimacy in your you're wanting more intimacy in your life, I want more intimacy in your in in life, I want more intimacy in your in in life, I want more intimacy in your in in my life. And that's And I found this my life. And that's And I found this my life. And that's And I found this path through my relationship with Jesus, path through my relationship with Jesus, path through my relationship with Jesus, by trusting him, I experience these by trusting him, I experience these by trusting him, I experience these things more fully. things more fully. things more fully. And so, part of what I think needs to And so, part of what I think needs to And so, part of what I think needs to happen in our churches, too, is we need happen in our churches, too, is we need happen in our churches, too, is we need to make sure that people are really to make sure that people are really to make sure that people are really experiencing Jesus. Because David and I experiencing Jesus. Because David and I experiencing Jesus. Because David and I did at Faith for Exiles, we found that did at Faith for Exiles, we found that did at Faith for Exiles, we found that frequency of attendance did not frequency of attendance did not frequency of attendance did not necessarily equate to intimacy with necessarily equate to intimacy with necessarily equate to intimacy with Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. And so, if I really have an intimate And so, if I really have an intimate And so, if I really have an intimate relationship with Jesus, people see it. relationship with Jesus, people see it. relationship with Jesus, people see it. I mean, one of the most really I mean, one of the most really I mean, one of the most really interesting things happening to my wife interesting things happening to my wife interesting things happening to my wife and I right now is our kids' friends and I right now is our kids' friends and I right now is our kids' friends that are getting married are coming out that are getting married are coming out that are getting married are coming out to us asking us if we can either do to us asking us if we can either do to us asking us if we can either do their premarital counseling or if I can their premarital counseling or if I can their premarital counseling or if I can officiate their wedding. Many of them officiate their wedding. Many of them officiate their wedding. Many of them are not Christians.

are not Christians. are not Christians. And and and and exploring that they're And and and and exploring that they're And and and and exploring that they're like, we see something in your marriage like, we see something in your marriage like, we see something in your marriage that we want in our own marriage. My that we want in our own marriage. My that we want in our own marriage. My wife and I are hearing that so much wife and I are hearing that so much wife and I are hearing that so much right now. Yeah. And our our new right now. Yeah. And our our new right now. Yeah. And our our new generation of friends are all our kids' generation of friends are all our kids' generation of friends are all our kids' age. Yeah, and so they're looking for age. Yeah, and so they're looking for age. Yeah, and so they're looking for the upgrade, right? the upgrade, right? the upgrade, right? They are. They're like, what is it? They are. They're like, what is it? They are. They're like, what is it? Something inside me wants this marriage, Something inside me wants this marriage, Something inside me wants this marriage, wants this intimacy. wants this intimacy. wants this intimacy. a story, but Who who do we Who do we see a story, but Who who do we Who do we see a story, but Who who do we Who do we see that's a good So, we have to be examples that's a good So, we have to be examples that's a good So, we have to be examples of fruitfulness. of fruitfulness. of fruitfulness. You know, and if we are examples of You know, and if we are examples of You know, and if we are examples of fruitfulness, the spiritually curious fruitfulness, the spiritually curious fruitfulness, the spiritually curious are going to go, how are you getting are going to go, how are you getting are going to go, how are you getting that? Yeah. And then we can say, we that? Yeah. And then we can say, we that? Yeah. And then we can say, we aren't doing anything. It's Jesus. Well, aren't doing anything. It's Jesus. Well, aren't doing anything. It's Jesus. Well, I just I just I just Trusting in him. Let let let's play Trusting in him. Let let let's play Trusting in him. Let let let's play this. You spend a lot of time here. this. You spend a lot of time here. this. You spend a lot of time here. We're recording this in Boulder, We're recording this in Boulder, We're recording this in Boulder, Colorado. I'm on a plane tomorrow to New Colorado. I'm on a plane tomorrow to New Colorado. I'm on a plane tomorrow to New York City for the weekend. York City for the weekend. York City for the weekend. These are very spiritual cities. I mean, These are very spiritual cities. I mean, These are very spiritual cities. I mean, you can walk five blocks in any you can walk five blocks in any you can walk five blocks in any direction here, you're going to see direction here, you're going to see direction here, you're going to see tarot card readings, psychics, tarot card readings, psychics, tarot card readings, psychics, crystals, A lot lot of Buddhist. A lot crystals, A lot lot of Buddhist. A lot crystals, A lot lot of Buddhist. A lot of Buddhist. Yeah, there's I passed a of Buddhist. Yeah, there's I passed a of Buddhist. Yeah, there's I passed a couple of meditation places yesterday.

couple of meditation places yesterday. couple of meditation places yesterday. to see a lot of deity free spirituality, to see a lot of deity free spirituality, to see a lot of deity free spirituality, meditation studios, meditation studios, meditation studios, things of that nature as well. Yeah. things of that nature as well. Yeah. things of that nature as well. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure in New York, if it wasn't Yeah, I'm sure in New York, if it wasn't Yeah, I'm sure in New York, if it wasn't winter, I'd be out there and there'd be winter, I'd be out there and there'd be winter, I'd be out there and there'd be peeing people exercising in the park, peeing people exercising in the park, peeing people exercising in the park, you know, on Sunday morning, that kind you know, on Sunday morning, that kind you know, on Sunday morning, that kind of thing, runners clubs, etc. I mean, of thing, runners clubs, etc. I mean, of thing, runners clubs, etc. I mean, where do you see spirituality in the where do you see spirituality in the where do you see spirituality in the culture, David? Cuz it would be easy to culture, David? Cuz it would be easy to culture, David? Cuz it would be easy to come here and pull out our placards and come here and pull out our placards and come here and pull out our placards and go, this is Satanist, you know, which go, this is Satanist, you know, which go, this is Satanist, you know, which arguably it could be. I mean, I don't arguably it could be. I mean, I don't arguably it could be. I mean, I don't know. It's Mars Hill. Yeah. Yeah, it's know. It's Mars Hill. Yeah. Yeah, it's know. It's Mars Hill. Yeah. Yeah, it's Mars Hill. You know, my my kids have Mars Hill. You know, my my kids have Mars Hill. You know, my my kids have friends that are tarot tarot card friends that are tarot tarot card friends that are tarot tarot card readers. I've taken time to learn a readers. I've taken time to learn a readers. I've taken time to learn a little bit about little bit about little bit about with that. about what's going on. I'll with that. about what's going on. I'll with that. about what's going on. I'll just go like, "So what are you looking just go like, "So what are you looking just go like, "So what are you looking for when you go to your tarot cards? for when you go to your tarot cards? for when you go to your tarot cards? What what is it you're seeking? Like What what is it you're seeking? Like What what is it you're seeking? Like what are you hoping to find?" You know, what are you hoping to find?" You know, what are you hoping to find?" You know, and I'm being genuinely curious about and I'm being genuinely curious about and I'm being genuinely curious about that. And they'll talk talk to me a that. And they'll talk talk to me a that. And they'll talk talk to me a little bit about what what they're little bit about what what they're little bit about what what they're looking for or what they're leaning looking for or what they're leaning looking for or what they're leaning into. And this opens up a conversation into. And this opens up a conversation into. And this opens up a conversation around certainty, spiritual exploration, around certainty, spiritual exploration, around certainty, spiritual exploration, you know, trust.

you know, trust. you know, trust. And and to be able to say admire them And and to be able to say admire them And and to be able to say admire them and say, "Wow, you're really are you and say, "Wow, you're really are you and say, "Wow, you're really are you really a spiritual person." really a spiritual person." really a spiritual person." Right? Cuz that's what Paul said on Mars Right? Cuz that's what Paul said on Mars Right? Cuz that's what Paul said on Mars Hill. "I see you are a very religious Hill. "I see you are a very religious Hill. "I see you are a very religious people. You know, you've got idols to people. You know, you've got idols to people. You know, you've got idols to everything, even this unknown God." everything, even this unknown God." everything, even this unknown God." Let me tell you something about this Let me tell you something about this Let me tell you something about this unknown God that you worship, right? And unknown God that you worship, right? And unknown God that you worship, right? And so it's really interesting when we so it's really interesting when we so it's really interesting when we connect with people and we go, "What do connect with people and we go, "What do connect with people and we go, "What do you what do you get out of running? What you what do you get out of running? What you what do you get out of running? What do you get out of going to meditation do you get out of going to meditation do you get out of going to meditation the meditation studio every week for 45 the meditation studio every week for 45 the meditation studio every week for 45 minutes a day? You know, you're paying minutes a day? You know, you're paying minutes a day? You know, you're paying $250 a session for. What what what is $250 a session for. What what what is $250 a session for. What what what is that doing for you?" What do you get out that doing for you?" What do you get out that doing for you?" What do you get out of hiking 14ers and Yeah, yeah, that of hiking 14ers and Yeah, yeah, that of hiking 14ers and Yeah, yeah, that one. David, any answers to that? one. David, any answers to that? one. David, any answers to that? But but I think that's kind of where you But but I think that's kind of where you But but I think that's kind of where you but that's where we find common ground. but that's where we find common ground. but that's where we find common ground. Yeah. And that gives us a basis to have Yeah. And that gives us a basis to have Yeah. And that gives us a basis to have a spiritual conversation with somebody a spiritual conversation with somebody a spiritual conversation with somebody and introduce them to Jesus. Well, first and introduce them to Jesus. Well, first and introduce them to Jesus. Well, first I was thinking when you said about Paul I was thinking when you said about Paul I was thinking when you said about Paul and his his speech in Athens, you know, and his his speech in Athens, you know, and his his speech in Athens, you know, like we we do talks and listeners are like we we do talks and listeners are like we we do talks and listeners are you know, in in boardrooms or in you know, in in boardrooms or in you know, in in boardrooms or in business settings or preachers and business settings or preachers and business settings or preachers and you're like, "Hey, you crushed it." It's you're like, "Hey, you crushed it." It's you're like, "Hey, you crushed it." It's like, I wonder what the people after like, I wonder what the people after like, I wonder what the people after Paul Paul Paul gave that speech to the the unknown God.

gave that speech to the the unknown God. gave that speech to the the unknown God. Like, "Ah, Paul, you just crushed that Like, "Ah, Paul, you just crushed that Like, "Ah, Paul, you just crushed that one." one." one." They're going to be talking about this They're going to be talking about this They're going to be talking about this 2,000 years from now, man. So that just that little that little So that just that little that little image hit me. So I mean we see this in image hit me. So I mean we see this in image hit me. So I mean we see this in the research that people experience God the research that people experience God the research that people experience God in nature. That is a big one for sure. in nature. That is a big one for sure. in nature. That is a big one for sure. Um Um Um and that is for me for sure. I mean I do and that is for me for sure. I mean I do and that is for me for sure. I mean I do a lot of hiking you're referencing. I do a lot of hiking you're referencing. I do a lot of hiking you're referencing. I do a lot of the 14,000 foot peaks a lot of the 14,000 foot peaks a lot of the 14,000 foot peaks especially in the summer here in especially in the summer here in especially in the summer here in Colorado. Colorado. Colorado. And you know, that elevation, the And you know, that elevation, the And you know, that elevation, the perspective, the kind of uh, exertion perspective, the kind of uh, exertion perspective, the kind of uh, exertion that's required, the the planning, you that's required, the the planning, you that's required, the the planning, you know, it's like it's my own kind of know, it's like it's my own kind of know, it's like it's my own kind of spiritual retreat and I do a lot of spiritual retreat and I do a lot of spiritual retreat and I do a lot of praying and and prep for it. And, um, I praying and and prep for it. And, um, I praying and and prep for it. And, um, I think that that elevation, one of my think that that elevation, one of my think that that elevation, one of my keywords for this year, um, has been keywords for this year, um, has been keywords for this year, um, has been elevation of just like perspective, get elevation of just like perspective, get elevation of just like perspective, get getting going a little higher to see getting going a little higher to see getting going a little higher to see things. And I think people are hungry things. And I think people are hungry things. And I think people are hungry for that. And so, you know, we live in a for that. And so, you know, we live in a for that. And so, you know, we live in a very, uh, spiritually drenched time. Uh, very, uh, spiritually drenched time. Uh, very, uh, spiritually drenched time. Uh, even entertainment, uh, popular even entertainment, uh, popular even entertainment, uh, popular television and and shows. It doesn't television and and shows. It doesn't television and and shows. It doesn't show up in the way that we Christians show up in the way that we Christians show up in the way that we Christians sometimes sometimes sometimes want it to.

want it to. want it to. Uh, cuz we're not, you know, in those Uh, cuz we're not, you know, in those Uh, cuz we're not, you know, in those places, but we get the chance at Barna places, but we get the chance at Barna places, but we get the chance at Barna to do to do to do a fair amount of of work with people in a fair amount of of work with people in a fair amount of of work with people in the entertainment industry. Uh, we'd the entertainment industry. Uh, we'd the entertainment industry. Uh, we'd like to do do even more in the coming like to do do even more in the coming like to do do even more in the coming years where we can try to help talk years where we can try to help talk years where we can try to help talk about the market research, about who are about the market research, about who are about the market research, about who are these Christians, who are these these Christians, who are these these Christians, who are these non-Christians, how might they want to non-Christians, how might they want to non-Christians, how might they want to be uh, spoken to, what are the kinds of be uh, spoken to, what are the kinds of be uh, spoken to, what are the kinds of stories that they want to to hear. Um, stories that they want to to hear. Um, stories that they want to to hear. Um, so I think those are a couple different so I think those are a couple different so I think those are a couple different places that that that I see it. And, um, places that that that I see it. And, um, places that that that I see it. And, um, I also follow a brand called School of I also follow a brand called School of I also follow a brand called School of Life, which comes out of the UK. Life, which comes out of the UK. Life, which comes out of the UK. And it's another place where I see And it's another place where I see And it's another place where I see spirituality, uh, the kinds of questions spirituality, uh, the kinds of questions spirituality, uh, the kinds of questions that are happening on social media. that are happening on social media. that are happening on social media. Uh, Uh, Uh, this particular company called School of this particular company called School of this particular company called School of Life, uh, it was started by the guy by Life, uh, it was started by the guy by Life, uh, it was started by the guy by the name of Alain de Botton, uh, who is the name of Alain de Botton, uh, who is the name of Alain de Botton, uh, who is Swiss, lives in the UK, a secular guy Swiss, lives in the UK, a secular guy Swiss, lives in the UK, a secular guy who basically said, "Listen, religion, who basically said, "Listen, religion, who basically said, "Listen, religion, philosophy, philosophy, philosophy, uh, psychology, all these sort of uh, psychology, all these sort of uh, psychology, all these sort of humanities, humanities, humanities, art, they have something to teach us. We art, they have something to teach us. We art, they have something to teach us. We all can imagine there's no God. There all can imagine there's no God. There all can imagine there's no God. There this all this sort of these naturalists, this all this sort of these naturalists, this all this sort of these naturalists, uh, but we can actually learn some uh, but we can actually learn some uh, but we can actually learn some things about relationships and thriving things about relationships and thriving things about relationships and thriving and despair and and, you know, who we're and despair and and, you know, who we're and despair and and, you know, who we're meant to be. It's it's like a it's like meant to be. It's it's like a it's like meant to be. It's it's like a it's like literally a curriculum for living in the literally a curriculum for living in the literally a curriculum for living in the modern age, but from a secular modern age, but from a secular modern age, but from a secular perspective. And I think that's a a perspective. And I think that's a a perspective. And I think that's a a good, um, it's a it's a really good, um, it's a it's a really good, um, it's a it's a really interesting brand to follow.

interesting brand to follow. interesting brand to follow. Um, they actually don't have any Um, they actually don't have any Um, they actually don't have any authored books. It's all sort of white authored books. It's all sort of white authored books. It's all sort of white labeled, um, meaning that you're not labeled, um, meaning that you're not labeled, um, meaning that you're not following a person, you're following the following a person, you're following the following a person, you're following the brand, which is actually a really brand, which is actually a really brand, which is actually a really interesting thing. interesting thing. interesting thing. So, So, So, it's a good example of why, you know, it's a good example of why, you know, it's a good example of why, you know, people are going to CrossFit, or they're people are going to CrossFit, or they're people are going to CrossFit, or they're going to, you know, personal coaches, or going to, you know, personal coaches, or going to, you know, personal coaches, or they're going to tarot card readers, or they're going to tarot card readers, or they're going to tarot card readers, or psychics, or why in the workplace psychics, or why in the workplace psychics, or why in the workplace they're trying to find meaning, because they're trying to find meaning, because they're trying to find meaning, because as the church broadly and institutional as the church broadly and institutional as the church broadly and institutional religion has declined in importance, religion has declined in importance, religion has declined in importance, people are placing more importance on people are placing more importance on people are placing more importance on these other places like um these other places like um these other places like um the workplace, like, you know, reading a the workplace, like, you know, reading a the workplace, like, you know, reading a book on dating and relationships, but book on dating and relationships, but book on dating and relationships, but it's from a secular perspective. Uh, you it's from a secular perspective. Uh, you it's from a secular perspective. Uh, you know, they're following social media know, they're following social media know, they're following social media influencers to say, you know, how do I influencers to say, you know, how do I influencers to say, you know, how do I find a more meaningful life? Those are find a more meaningful life? Those are find a more meaningful life? Those are Those are the expressions of Those are the expressions of Those are the expressions of spirituality in our time. And so, the spirituality in our time. And so, the spirituality in our time. And so, the the church can intersect those and say, the church can intersect those and say, the church can intersect those and say, you know, this is, you know, I can see you know, this is, you know, I can see you know, this is, you know, I can see you've got all these idols. I can see you've got all these idols. I can see you've got all these idols. I can see you're doing all these things that are you're doing all these things that are you're doing all these things that are good and meaningful, but what if there good and meaningful, but what if there good and meaningful, but what if there is an an unknown way, a secret, is an an unknown way, a secret, is an an unknown way, a secret, mysterious way from the past called mysterious way from the past called mysterious way from the past called Christianity, following Jesus, that Christianity, following Jesus, that Christianity, following Jesus, that might actually re-interpret all of these might actually re-interpret all of these might actually re-interpret all of these things that you're doing towards a more things that you're doing towards a more things that you're doing towards a more whole life whole life whole life discipleship, more towards towards a discipleship, more towards towards a discipleship, more towards towards a more whole whole way to live your life.

more whole whole way to live your life. more whole whole way to live your life. And I think this generation is is hungry And I think this generation is is hungry And I think this generation is is hungry for that. for that. for that. I think I want to touch on mental I think I want to touch on mental I think I want to touch on mental health, because the stats there just health, because the stats there just health, because the stats there just blew me away. Somehow I think these two blew me away. Somehow I think these two blew me away. Somehow I think these two conversations are related, mental health conversations are related, mental health conversations are related, mental health and and and It is an expression of spirituality, It is an expression of spirituality, It is an expression of spirituality, yeah. Yeah. Um yeah. Yeah. Um yeah. Yeah. Um You know, so we talked about I have a You know, so we talked about I have a You know, so we talked about I have a what I would consider historically what I would consider historically what I would consider historically orthodox understanding of of orthodox understanding of of orthodox understanding of of Christianity and who Jesus is, and Christianity and who Jesus is, and Christianity and who Jesus is, and I know you too well enough to know that I know you too well enough to know that I know you too well enough to know that you would say the same thing. you would say the same thing. you would say the same thing. And there's almost a false dichotomy in And there's almost a false dichotomy in And there's almost a false dichotomy in the church where people would say, well, the church where people would say, well, the church where people would say, well, if you if I if I get a little more open, if you if I if I get a little more open, if you if I if I get a little more open, let's say there's still some people who let's say there's still some people who let's say there's still some people who would say, I need I have a high need for would say, I need I have a high need for would say, I need I have a high need for closure, who are listening, those who closure, who are listening, those who closure, who are listening, those who haven't turned off by now. haven't turned off by now. haven't turned off by now. Um Um Um And and they're like, if I'm afraid if I And and they're like, if I'm afraid if I And and they're like, if I'm afraid if I become more open, I'm going to end up become more open, I'm going to end up become more open, I'm going to end up deconstructing, or I won't be faithful, deconstructing, or I won't be faithful, deconstructing, or I won't be faithful, or that somehow it's it's, you know, my or that somehow it's it's, you know, my or that somehow it's it's, you know, my mother's going to be rolling in her mother's going to be rolling in her mother's going to be rolling in her grave, or whatever that happens to be. grave, or whatever that happens to be. grave, or whatever that happens to be. How do you hold in tension How do you hold in tension How do you hold in tension a firm belief a firm belief a firm belief about what you know and believe to be about what you know and believe to be about what you know and believe to be true true true and an openness and an openness and an openness to seeing where the world is exploring to seeing where the world is exploring to seeing where the world is exploring and trying to meet them there?

and trying to meet them there? and trying to meet them there? Well, Paul says he knows this one thing, Well, Paul says he knows this one thing, Well, Paul says he knows this one thing, Christ and Christ crucified. Christ and Christ crucified. Christ and Christ crucified. Uh that he strives for that, right? Or Uh that he strives for that, right? Or Uh that he strives for that, right? Or Psalm 27 that this one thing I seek Psalm 27 that this one thing I seek Psalm 27 that this one thing I seek uh is to to to to to experience your uh is to to to to to experience your uh is to to to to to experience your beauty, the beauty of the Lord in in his beauty, the beauty of the Lord in in his beauty, the beauty of the Lord in in his temple. Uh and um I think we need to temple. Uh and um I think we need to temple. Uh and um I think we need to immerse ourselves in scripture first of immerse ourselves in scripture first of immerse ourselves in scripture first of all because uh they I think are uh all because uh they I think are uh all because uh they I think are uh invitations into this dynamic life with invitations into this dynamic life with invitations into this dynamic life with our creator. our creator. our creator. And and my story, my experience at every And and my story, my experience at every And and my story, my experience at every phase of my life and in different ways phase of my life and in different ways phase of my life and in different ways uh but, you know, whether it's through uh but, you know, whether it's through uh but, you know, whether it's through bereavement and and cancer, whether it's bereavement and and cancer, whether it's bereavement and and cancer, whether it's through vocational journeys, I'm a very through vocational journeys, I'm a very through vocational journeys, I'm a very ambitious person and I've found my my ambitious person and I've found my my ambitious person and I've found my my heart's heart's heart's uh answer in the book of Ecclesiastes. uh answer in the book of Ecclesiastes. uh answer in the book of Ecclesiastes. You know, I've I've found um you know, You know, I've I've found um you know, You know, I've I've found um you know, like in second second Corinthians, uh like in second second Corinthians, uh like in second second Corinthians, uh you know, God of all comfort comes to you know, God of all comfort comes to you know, God of all comfort comes to comfort those you know, who are who are comfort those you know, who are who are comfort those you know, who are who are despair despairing, you know, for second despair despairing, you know, for second despair despairing, you know, for second Corinthians one talks Paul says, you Corinthians one talks Paul says, you Corinthians one talks Paul says, you know, we despaired of life, we thought know, we despaired of life, we thought know, we despaired of life, we thought we would die.

we would die. we would die. Um so, I think Um so, I think Um so, I think I just would I just would I just would give uh testimony to the, you know, give uh testimony to the, you know, give uh testimony to the, you know, personal sort of story about the role of personal sort of story about the role of personal sort of story about the role of the scriptures, the the the alive and the scriptures, the the the alive and the scriptures, the the the alive and active word of God that has come uh into active word of God that has come uh into active word of God that has come uh into my life and uh you know, saved me from my life and uh you know, saved me from my life and uh you know, saved me from myself. Um and it's, you know, the myself. Um and it's, you know, the myself. Um and it's, you know, the person and work of Jesus and the person and work of Jesus and the person and work of Jesus and the scriptures have scriptures have scriptures have uh have helped me do that, have have uh have helped me do that, have have uh have helped me do that, have have helped me to sort of put my heart back helped me to sort of put my heart back helped me to sort of put my heart back together. And then the community of God together. And then the community of God together. And then the community of God around me has helped me to do that in around me has helped me to do that in around me has helped me to do that in various times in my life. various times in my life. various times in my life. Um you know, whether a new parent or a Um you know, whether a new parent or a Um you know, whether a new parent or a member actually coming uh after the member actually coming uh after the member actually coming uh after the first three or four months when first three or four months when first three or four months when Unchristian launched um Unchristian launched um Unchristian launched um and that was quite a rocket ship as Gabe and that was quite a rocket ship as Gabe and that was quite a rocket ship as Gabe Lyons and I had launched that book and Lyons and I had launched that book and Lyons and I had launched that book and you know, we started you know, we just you know, we started you know, we just you know, we started you know, we just were asked to come speak on that in a were asked to come speak on that in a were asked to come speak on that in a lot of places. A real privilege. But I lot of places. A real privilege. But I lot of places. A real privilege. But I remember coming back to my home church remember coming back to my home church remember coming back to my home church at a prayer night and just just weeping at a prayer night and just just weeping at a prayer night and just just weeping out of almost fatigue and exhaustion and out of almost fatigue and exhaustion and out of almost fatigue and exhaustion and I was in inadequate to the task of I was in inadequate to the task of I was in inadequate to the task of trying to help the the church grapple trying to help the the church grapple trying to help the the church grapple with the message of that book. Um and with the message of that book. Um and with the message of that book. Um and that church and Pastor Larry Reinhardt that church and Pastor Larry Reinhardt that church and Pastor Larry Reinhardt and that that night and the just the and that that night and the just the and that that night and the just the tears themselves, the the physical tears themselves, the the physical tears themselves, the the physical expression of of of feeling exhausted expression of of of feeling exhausted expression of of of feeling exhausted and and almost like overwhelmed by and and almost like overwhelmed by and and almost like overwhelmed by you know, what what God had asked us to you know, what what God had asked us to you know, what what God had asked us to do with that book. It was like the Lord do with that book. It was like the Lord do with that book. It was like the Lord was like, "Hey, I see you. Let's Let's was like, "Hey, I see you. Let's Let's was like, "Hey, I see you. Let's Let's Let's cry this one out. This was a hard Let's cry this one out. This was a hard Let's cry this one out. This was a hard This was a hard journey. Yeah, you got This was a hard journey. Yeah, you got This was a hard journey. Yeah, you got asked to go speak in some cool places, asked to go speak in some cool places, asked to go speak in some cool places, but it's all right. Like I you know, the but it's all right. Like I you know, the but it's all right. Like I you know, the God joined me in that."

God joined me in that." God joined me in that." And so I think those are really And so I think those are really And so I think those are really important things for us to to mark in important things for us to to mark in important things for us to to mark in our life. That God shows up and meets us our life. That God shows up and meets us our life. That God shows up and meets us in these places of deep need. And uh you in these places of deep need. And uh you in these places of deep need. And uh you know, what a what a cool cool experience know, what a what a cool cool experience know, what a what a cool cool experience that we get to have to walk with them in that we get to have to walk with them in that we get to have to walk with them in these days. these days. these days. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. For me, you know, we have to have For me, you know, we have to have For me, you know, we have to have confidence one, the Holy Spirit is confidence one, the Holy Spirit is confidence one, the Holy Spirit is already at work. already at work. already at work. Um and and so you know, when I'm talking Um and and so you know, when I'm talking Um and and so you know, when I'm talking to a person, especially somebody who's to a person, especially somebody who's to a person, especially somebody who's outside of the church, I'm going, "Where outside of the church, I'm going, "Where outside of the church, I'm going, "Where is God already at work in their life?" is God already at work in their life?" is God already at work in their life?" So I'm trying to find those places So I'm trying to find those places So I'm trying to find those places because I believe he already is, right? because I believe he already is, right? because I believe he already is, right? And uh and it just just so happens I And uh and it just just so happens I And uh and it just just so happens I have you sit next to them on an airplane have you sit next to them on an airplane have you sit next to them on an airplane today. Just so happens that they're my today. Just so happens that they're my today. Just so happens that they're my waiter or waitress. It just so happens waiter or waitress. It just so happens waiter or waitress. It just so happens that So So I'm a part of this thing that that So So I'm a part of this thing that that So So I'm a part of this thing that God is doing in their life cuz he cares God is doing in their life cuz he cares God is doing in their life cuz he cares way more about them than I do. So I'm way more about them than I do. So I'm way more about them than I do. So I'm always looking for that. And then the always looking for that. And then the always looking for that. And then the word of God, um word of God, um word of God, um you know, believing that you know, believing that you know, believing that that it is really powerful. So that That that it is really powerful. So that That that it is really powerful. So that That itself is an open thing that has nothing itself is an open thing that has nothing itself is an open thing that has nothing to do with belief. Mhm. Right? But it's to do with belief. Mhm. Right? But it's to do with belief. Mhm. Right? But it's a it's it's it's a journey into the a it's it's it's a journey into the a it's it's it's a journey into the wonder, you know, um, St. Augustine wonder, you know, um, St. Augustine wonder, you know, um, St. Augustine talked about the curiositas as being talked about the curiositas as being talked about the curiositas as being like this dark thing. That curiosity you like this dark thing. That curiosity you like this dark thing. That curiosity you know, curiosity killed the cat. You know, curiosity killed the cat. You know, curiosity killed the cat. You know, all this stuff, right? We have all know, all this stuff, right? We have all know, all this stuff, right? We have all these narratives of curiosity actually these narratives of curiosity actually these narratives of curiosity actually being a negative thing.

being a negative thing. being a negative thing. And, um, the reality is that it can be And, um, the reality is that it can be And, um, the reality is that it can be when it's rooted in our flesh. It can be when it's rooted in our flesh. It can be when it's rooted in our flesh. It can be a wonderful thing when it's rooted in a wonderful thing when it's rooted in a wonderful thing when it's rooted in our desire to experience more and more our desire to experience more and more our desire to experience more and more of God. And Paul wrote to the of God. And Paul wrote to the of God. And Paul wrote to the Thessalonians, he said, you know, I you Thessalonians, he said, you know, I you Thessalonians, he said, you know, I you guys I brag about how much you love each guys I brag about how much you love each guys I brag about how much you love each other. Now I just want to encourage you, other. Now I just want to encourage you, other. Now I just want to encourage you, do it more and more. You know, it you do it more and more. You know, it you do it more and more. You know, it you there's there is so much limitlessness there's there is so much limitlessness there's there is so much limitlessness to this. And I know for my wife and I, to this. And I know for my wife and I, to this. And I know for my wife and I, you know, we think, oh my gosh, we've you know, we think, oh my gosh, we've you know, we think, oh my gosh, we've been married for 32 years. been married for 32 years. been married for 32 years. The intimacy that we know now is not we The intimacy that we know now is not we The intimacy that we know now is not we thought we were in love thought we were in love thought we were in love Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But now what we know is so much deeper. But now what we know is so much deeper. But now what we know is so much deeper. Oh, what could it be like in 10 more Oh, what could it be like in 10 more Oh, what could it be like in 10 more years? You know, and so it's that idea years? You know, and so it's that idea years? You know, and so it's that idea that my love for Jesus uh, what it is that my love for Jesus uh, what it is that my love for Jesus uh, what it is now is nothing compared to what it now is nothing compared to what it now is nothing compared to what it probably can be. And so that openness to probably can be. And so that openness to probably can be. And so that openness to explore and to be curious is not one of explore and to be curious is not one of explore and to be curious is not one of vice. It's one of intimacy with God and vice. It's one of intimacy with God and vice. It's one of intimacy with God and experience of God. And like I think some experience of God. And like I think some experience of God. And like I think some of the Jewish Christians in the early of the Jewish Christians in the early of the Jewish Christians in the early church, there was a sense of we've got church, there was a sense of we've got church, there was a sense of we've got this all figured out and buttoned down this all figured out and buttoned down this all figured out and buttoned down and nope.

and nope. and nope. Gentiles are bringing in this whole Gentiles are bringing in this whole Gentiles are bringing in this whole other way of understanding and other way of understanding and other way of understanding and experiencing the Lord, right? And so and experiencing the Lord, right? And so and experiencing the Lord, right? And so and we may be at that moment with Gen Z. we may be at that moment with Gen Z. we may be at that moment with Gen Z. Well, Openness and certainty certainty Well, Openness and certainty certainty Well, Openness and certainty certainty are also not mutually exclusive ideas, are also not mutually exclusive ideas, are also not mutually exclusive ideas, right? So I think that's that's the right? So I think that's that's the right? So I think that's that's the other thing to other thing to other thing to Say more about that. Um, Say more about that. Um, Say more about that. Um, well, I think it's it's I'm not a well, I think it's it's I'm not a well, I think it's it's I'm not a philosopher, but it probably comes from philosopher, but it probably comes from philosopher, but it probably comes from more of an enlightenment way of thinking more of an enlightenment way of thinking more of an enlightenment way of thinking where even as a survey researcher we're where even as a survey researcher we're where even as a survey researcher we're trying to construct trying to construct trying to construct binaries or thoughts about is it this or binaries or thoughts about is it this or binaries or thoughts about is it this or is it this? Like we have a survey is it this? Like we have a survey is it this? Like we have a survey question, you know, are you more question, you know, are you more question, you know, are you more interested in openness or in certainty? interested in openness or in certainty? interested in openness or in certainty? And people say they're more interested And people say they're more interested And people say they're more interested in openness. 70% 69% of Americans say in openness. 70% 69% of Americans say in openness. 70% 69% of Americans say they're more interested in a faith that they're more interested in a faith that they're more interested in a faith that is open than a faith that is certain. is open than a faith that is certain. is open than a faith that is certain. Well, even in the construction of the Well, even in the construction of the Well, even in the construction of the question, question, question, we created kind of a false dichotomy. I we created kind of a false dichotomy. I we created kind of a false dichotomy. I I might have answered that one I might have answered that one I might have answered that one certainty. Yeah. I want to know that certainty. Yeah. I want to know that certainty. Yeah. I want to know that Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus rose from the dead. Sure. But that that but even the way we Sure. But that that but even the way we Sure. But that that but even the way we ask our questions, even the way we think ask our questions, even the way we think ask our questions, even the way we think about these about these about these concepts are reflecting a kind of concepts are reflecting a kind of concepts are reflecting a kind of uh uh uh zero-sum game. As though the more zero-sum game. As though the more zero-sum game. As though the more certainty you as the the more openness certainty you as the the more openness certainty you as the the more openness you have or the more curiosity, it must you have or the more curiosity, it must you have or the more curiosity, it must mean that you're mean that you're mean that you're you're you're lagging in your certainty.

you're you're lagging in your certainty. you're you're lagging in your certainty. What Mark is describing is that he can What Mark is describing is that he can What Mark is describing is that he can um um um you know, he he can have this sort of you know, he he can have this sort of you know, he he can have this sort of like his marriage can be be you know, like his marriage can be be you know, like his marriage can be be you know, he's he's working towards this this he's he's working towards this this he's he's working towards this this vision of a of a of a marriage over vision of a of a of a marriage over vision of a of a of a marriage over many, many years. And that's actually many, many years. And that's actually many, many years. And that's actually what I was going to say. what I was going to say. what I was going to say. You know, as you guys were talking You know, as you guys were talking You know, as you guys were talking about, you know, your marriages about, you know, your marriages about, you know, your marriages um um um and you know, you we we were sort of and you know, you we we were sort of and you know, you we we were sort of making eye contact about the notion that making eye contact about the notion that making eye contact about the notion that like, you know, we've been friends for a like, you know, we've been friends for a like, you know, we've been friends for a long time. You guys have great long time. You guys have great long time. You guys have great marriages. You guys We've talked about marriages. You guys We've talked about marriages. You guys We've talked about some challenge challenges that you have some challenge challenges that you have some challenge challenges that you have been. I've been bereaved now and so like been. I've been bereaved now and so like been. I've been bereaved now and so like I now I'm single and you guys know some I now I'm single and you guys know some I now I'm single and you guys know some of the challenges I've had in that and of the challenges I've had in that and of the challenges I've had in that and and and here's the thing that is I think and and here's the thing that is I think and and here's the thing that is I think so important for us about this curious so important for us about this curious so important for us about this curious moment and in fact the testimony, the moment and in fact the testimony, the moment and in fact the testimony, the what we can say about our faith is that what we can say about our faith is that what we can say about our faith is that God God God hasn't just walked through the the gray hasn't just walked through the the gray hasn't just walked through the the gray times with us, but he in fact has helped times with us, but he in fact has helped times with us, but he in fact has helped heal us and put us back together through heal us and put us back together through heal us and put us back together through thick and thin, through the worst that thick and thin, through the worst that thick and thin, through the worst that life can throw at us and the best that life can throw at us and the best that life can throw at us and the best that life can throw at us. And I think that's life can throw at us. And I think that's life can throw at us. And I think that's actually the kind of thing that people actually the kind of thing that people actually the kind of thing that people are really hungry for is like how has are really hungry for is like how has are really hungry for is like how has God God God you know, shown up in your life in ways, you know, shown up in your life in ways, you know, shown up in your life in ways, especially when things are really tough.

especially when things are really tough. especially when things are really tough. Cuz we have a God who walks through Cuz we have a God who walks through Cuz we have a God who walks through suffering with us. We have a God who suffering with us. We have a God who suffering with us. We have a God who cares about our trauma. We have a high cares about our trauma. We have a high cares about our trauma. We have a high priest who you know, was was was uh priest who you know, was was was uh priest who you know, was was was uh you know, beaten and flogged and you know, beaten and flogged and you know, beaten and flogged and understands the challenges that we face. understands the challenges that we face. understands the challenges that we face. I think that's really part of the I think that's really part of the I think that's really part of the witness of this of this moment. It's witness of this of this moment. It's witness of this of this moment. It's like people are actually when it comes like people are actually when it comes like people are actually when it comes to mental health, like they want to is to mental health, like they want to is to mental health, like they want to is there a better way? Inner peace is a new there a better way? Inner peace is a new there a better way? Inner peace is a new apologetic apologetic apologetic because this generation is so hungry because this generation is so hungry because this generation is so hungry to find uh a place of peace and all. to find uh a place of peace and all. to find uh a place of peace and all. is a new apologetic. Wow. is a new apologetic. Wow. is a new apologetic. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm going to do cuz Yeah. You know what I'm going to do cuz Yeah. You know what I'm going to do cuz this has been such a helpful this has been such a helpful this has been such a helpful conversation. I was going to spend 20 conversation. I was going to spend 20 conversation. I was going to spend 20 minutes on openness and then get into minutes on openness and then get into minutes on openness and then get into other subjects. It's been so good. I'm other subjects. It's been so good. I'm other subjects. It's been so good. I'm going to put a pin Yeah. in mental going to put a pin Yeah. in mental going to put a pin Yeah. in mental health. I want to do a full episode 2 3 health. I want to do a full episode 2 3 health. I want to do a full episode 2 3 4 down the road on it. But let's let's 4 down the road on it. But let's let's 4 down the road on it. But let's let's conclude on that thought. Let's talk conclude on that thought. Let's talk conclude on that thought. Let's talk about uh the new apologetic. That uh Say about uh the new apologetic. That uh Say about uh the new apologetic. That uh Say a little bit more about that, David or a little bit more about that, David or a little bit more about that, David or Yeah, can I I'd like to say something on Yeah, can I I'd like to say something on Yeah, can I I'd like to say something on certainty. certainty. certainty. Certainty is not a relationship word.

Certainty is not a relationship word. Certainty is not a relationship word. Um Um Um and um and I think I think that the and um and I think I think that the and um and I think I think that the church has having a problem right now church has having a problem right now church has having a problem right now theologically between a relationship theologically between a relationship theologically between a relationship with Jesus Christ and belief in with Jesus Christ and belief in with Jesus Christ and belief in Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. And so certainty is something that And so certainty is something that And so certainty is something that happens like I have confidence in my happens like I have confidence in my happens like I have confidence in my wife. wife. wife. I don't have certainty in my wife. I don't have certainty in my wife. I don't have certainty in my wife. Well, yeah. You know what I mean? Well, yeah. You know what I mean? Well, yeah. You know what I mean? I have actually I have confidence You're I have actually I have confidence You're I have actually I have confidence You're right. I have no idea I think she texted right. I have no idea I think she texted right. I have no idea I think she texted me I saw when I was looking at my me I saw when I was looking at my me I saw when I was looking at my questions. Think she's at dinner with questions. Think she's at dinner with questions. Think she's at dinner with someone? Yeah. No certainty around that. someone? Yeah. No certainty around that. someone? Yeah. No certainty around that. But I have confidence that everything's But I have confidence that everything's But I have confidence that everything's going to be okay. going to be okay. going to be okay. Yes. Yes. And and I think and I think we Yes. Yes. And and I think and I think we Yes. Yes. And and I think and I think we have to start really looking at our have to start really looking at our have to start really looking at our words and our language like the like words and our language like the like words and our language like the like grace. Grace is actually not a grace. Grace is actually not a grace. Grace is actually not a theological word. It is a relationship theological word. It is a relationship theological word. It is a relationship word. word. word. And we we don't think about our And we we don't think about our And we we don't think about our relationship with Christ enough relationship with Christ enough relationship with Christ enough relationally. And and to me the essence relationally. And and to me the essence relationally. And and to me the essence of discipleship what Jesus was trying to of discipleship what Jesus was trying to of discipleship what Jesus was trying to teach his disciples was to trust him. teach his disciples was to trust him. teach his disciples was to trust him. And in so many discipleship programs And in so many discipleship programs And in so many discipleship programs that David and I have surveyed as we that David and I have surveyed as we that David and I have surveyed as we were writing Faith for Exiles or were writing Faith for Exiles or were writing Faith for Exiles or anything, so much of it was about anything, so much of it was about anything, so much of it was about teaching beliefs and making sure teaching beliefs and making sure teaching beliefs and making sure doctrine was in place, but none of it doctrine was in place, but none of it doctrine was in place, but none of it was around trust.

was around trust. was around trust. So you have people and what we're seeing So you have people and what we're seeing So you have people and what we're seeing in some of this deconstruction is in some of this deconstruction is in some of this deconstruction is they're going through and they're they're going through and they're they're going through and they're they're they're breaking down beliefs, they're they're breaking down beliefs, they're they're breaking down beliefs, but as soon as I start trying to bring a but as soon as I start trying to bring a but as soon as I start trying to bring a relationship with Jesus into the relationship with Jesus into the relationship with Jesus into the conversation, that's not even a part of conversation, that's not even a part of conversation, that's not even a part of it because I can't deconstruct my wife. it because I can't deconstruct my wife. it because I can't deconstruct my wife. She's there, you know what I mean? And I She's there, you know what I mean? And I She's there, you know what I mean? And I can't say I don't believe in her anymore can't say I don't believe in her anymore can't say I don't believe in her anymore because she's there and with Jesus, because she's there and with Jesus, because she's there and with Jesus, there's nothing to deconstruct if he's there's nothing to deconstruct if he's there's nothing to deconstruct if he's there and I'm trusting him and I'm there and I'm trusting him and I'm there and I'm trusting him and I'm seeing the fruitfulness of that. And seeing the fruitfulness of that. And seeing the fruitfulness of that. And inner peace comes from that confidence inner peace comes from that confidence inner peace comes from that confidence that we have in trusting and leaning that we have in trusting and leaning that we have in trusting and leaning with our full weight into Jesus in those with our full weight into Jesus in those with our full weight into Jesus in those different moments of our life. And the different moments of our life. And the different moments of our life. And the times that I have fail is when I lean times that I have fail is when I lean times that I have fail is when I lean out of my out of my out of my relationship with Jesus and my my trust, relationship with Jesus and my my trust, relationship with Jesus and my my trust, my confidence isn't there. It's on my my confidence isn't there. It's on my my confidence isn't there. It's on my own two feet and I have start shaking own two feet and I have start shaking own two feet and I have start shaking and wobbling and I stumble and I fall. and wobbling and I stumble and I fall. and wobbling and I stumble and I fall. And so, I think we have to think about And so, I think we have to think about And so, I think we have to think about that because that because that because that's for me what openness is. It's that's for me what openness is. It's that's for me what openness is. It's like this opportunity to explore the the like this opportunity to explore the the like this opportunity to explore the the extent of that confidence and the wonder extent of that confidence and the wonder extent of that confidence and the wonder of that. Certainty is is a is is a of that. Certainty is is a is is a of that. Certainty is is a is is a closed set is a closed system. And every closed set is a closed system. And every closed set is a closed system. And every day, day, day, um um um you know, I have to have confidence in you know, I have to have confidence in you know, I have to have confidence in my wife. We have to have renewed trust my wife. We have to have renewed trust my wife. We have to have renewed trust in our relationship and the same thing's in our relationship and the same thing's in our relationship and the same thing's true in my relationship with Jesus as true in my relationship with Jesus as true in my relationship with Jesus as well.

well. well. So, we covered a lot. So, we covered a lot. So, we covered a lot. If there was one thing If there was one thing If there was one thing that you would say cuz Pastor says, "All that you would say cuz Pastor says, "All that you would say cuz Pastor says, "All right, all right, I'm going to I'm going right, all right, I'm going to I'm going right, all right, I'm going to I'm going to really think about this. I'm going to to really think about this. I'm going to to really think about this. I'm going to reframe. reframe. reframe. I'm open. I want I want to know more." I'm open. I want I want to know more." I'm open. I want I want to know more." But most of us are probably looking for, But most of us are probably looking for, But most of us are probably looking for, "Okay, where do I start?" Like what is "Okay, where do I start?" Like what is "Okay, where do I start?" Like what is what is one thing I could do that would what is one thing I could do that would what is one thing I could do that would at least move me a step closer to at least move me a step closer to at least move me a step closer to engaging with a culture that apparently engaging with a culture that apparently engaging with a culture that apparently is spiritually open and probably is spiritually open and probably is spiritually open and probably spiritually hungry. spiritually hungry. spiritually hungry. What's one thing they could do? What's one thing they could do? What's one thing they could do? I think the first thing is I think the first thing is I think the first thing is just being curious about other people just being curious about other people just being curious about other people without having an agenda to lead them to without having an agenda to lead them to without having an agenda to lead them to faith. faith. faith. I have found that most of the time I have found that most of the time I have found that most of the time spiritually curious people end up asking spiritually curious people end up asking spiritually curious people end up asking me me me to tell them how they can put their to tell them how they can put their to tell them how they can put their trust in Jesus. trust in Jesus. trust in Jesus. Wow. Wow. Wow. More than I have to introduce it because More than I have to introduce it because More than I have to introduce it because I'm genuinely curious about their life I'm genuinely curious about their life I'm genuinely curious about their life and what they're exploring and what and what they're exploring and what and what they're exploring and what they're into. they're into. they're into. And I think that that's an easy place to And I think that that's an easy place to And I think that that's an easy place to start. Genuinely being interested in the start. Genuinely being interested in the start. Genuinely being interested in the the lives of others. And for pastors, the lives of others. And for pastors, the lives of others. And for pastors, it's really hard because vocationally we it's really hard because vocationally we it's really hard because vocationally we have our flock and we only have have our flock and we only have have our flock and we only have relational capacity or biologically we relational capacity or biologically we relational capacity or biologically we are limited in what we what how many are limited in what we what how many are limited in what we what how many relationships we can maintain.

relationships we can maintain. relationships we can maintain. And um and so that is challenging. So we And um and so that is challenging. So we And um and so that is challenging. So we have to figure out how do we make space have to figure out how do we make space have to figure out how do we make space for that? You know what I mean? A lot of for that? You know what I mean? A lot of for that? You know what I mean? A lot of our evangelism techniques were built to our evangelism techniques were built to our evangelism techniques were built to kind of cheat kind of cheat kind of cheat the limitations of our biology, right? the limitations of our biology, right? the limitations of our biology, right? Um so that's why I'll just be one Um so that's why I'll just be one Um so that's why I'll just be one speaker in front of speaker in front of speaker in front of Stadiums. Yes. Yeah. Because but but if Stadiums. Yes. Yeah. Because but but if Stadiums. Yes. Yeah. Because but but if we're all doing the work in our we're all doing the work in our we're all doing the work in our neighborhoods and our communities and neighborhoods and our communities and neighborhoods and our communities and the people that we're coming in contact the people that we're coming in contact the people that we're coming in contact with, we have the capacity that we need with, we have the capacity that we need with, we have the capacity that we need to actually make the difference and to actually make the difference and to actually make the difference and change. So So I'd say that if I was a change. So So I'd say that if I was a change. So So I'd say that if I was a pastor, that would be the first thing is pastor, that would be the first thing is pastor, that would be the first thing is find space. I When I was a little when I find space. I When I was a little when I find space. I When I was a little when I was younger, was younger, was younger, I was fascinated with a associate pastor I was fascinated with a associate pastor I was fascinated with a associate pastor of our church, Dr. Angle. of our church, Dr. Angle. of our church, Dr. Angle. He was a He was a He was a horticulturalist and he raised orchids. horticulturalist and he raised orchids. horticulturalist and he raised orchids. He even made a strain that he named He even made a strain that he named He even made a strain that he named after his wife, Ruth. And how romantic after his wife, Ruth. And how romantic after his wife, Ruth. And how romantic is that, right? Say, I this this orchid is that, right? Say, I this this orchid is that, right? Say, I this this orchid flower never existed, it's named after flower never existed, it's named after flower never existed, it's named after you, right? Beautiful. Anyways, as a you, right? Beautiful. Anyways, as a you, right? Beautiful. Anyways, as a kid, he had test tubes and kid, he had test tubes and kid, he had test tubes and greenhouses and all this stuff and I greenhouses and all this stuff and I greenhouses and all this stuff and I just thought this guy was like just thought this guy was like just thought this guy was like fascinating.

fascinating. fascinating. And um and he left our church and took And um and he left our church and took And um and he left our church and took another assignment. And uh when I was a another assignment. And uh when I was a another assignment. And uh when I was a a bit older in um my teenage years, my a bit older in um my teenage years, my a bit older in um my teenage years, my grandmother was sick and she said, "Hey, grandmother was sick and she said, "Hey, grandmother was sick and she said, "Hey, Dr. Engel is actually Dr. Engel is actually Dr. Engel is actually in a room two doors down." And so, I in a room two doors down." And so, I in a room two doors down." And so, I went over and I visited him. went over and I visited him. went over and I visited him. And he said, "So, Mark, what do you And he said, "So, Mark, what do you And he said, "So, Mark, what do you think you're going to do with your think you're going to do with your think you're going to do with your life?" And I go, "So, well, you know, I life?" And I go, "So, well, you know, I life?" And I go, "So, well, you know, I thought about going into ministry." thought about going into ministry." thought about going into ministry." And he said, "Let me tell you something. And he said, "Let me tell you something. And he said, "Let me tell you something. He goes, "The thing that you and I He goes, "The thing that you and I He goes, "The thing that you and I always connected on was my orchids. always connected on was my orchids. always connected on was my orchids. And he goes, "I always required the And he goes, "I always required the And he goes, "I always required the church to give me Thursday off to work church to give me Thursday off to work church to give me Thursday off to work uh uh uh with the Orchid Society. Cuz that was my with the Orchid Society. Cuz that was my with the Orchid Society. Cuz that was my only connection with people outside the only connection with people outside the only connection with people outside the church." church." church." And he said, "If you ever find yourself And he said, "If you ever find yourself And he said, "If you ever find yourself in an all-Christian kind of situation, in an all-Christian kind of situation, in an all-Christian kind of situation, like a ministry, find your Orchid like a ministry, find your Orchid like a ministry, find your Orchid Society." Society." Society." And so, when I went to Biola University, And so, when I went to Biola University, And so, when I went to Biola University, I looked for my Orchid Society, and it I looked for my Orchid Society, and it I looked for my Orchid Society, and it was a magic club of Beverly Hills, was a magic club of Beverly Hills, was a magic club of Beverly Hills, California. California. California. And that was by magic, I mean, like card And that was by magic, I mean, like card And that was by magic, I mean, like card tricks. tricks. tricks. Just to be just to be clear. Uh, so Just to be just to be clear. Uh, so Just to be just to be clear. Uh, so there's no no mis- Yeah, yeah, yeah. It there's no no mis- Yeah, yeah, yeah. It there's no no mis- Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't Hogwarts. We're talking Yeah, wasn't Hogwarts. We're talking Yeah, wasn't Hogwarts. We're talking Yeah, yeah, David Copperfield stuff. And um, yeah, David Copperfield stuff. And um, yeah, David Copperfield stuff. And um, and and that was and and that was and and that was uh, for me, the place that I was able to uh, for me, the place that I was able to uh, for me, the place that I was able to connect on something that I was connect on something that I was connect on something that I was interested in that wasn't the faith interested in that wasn't the faith interested in that wasn't the faith wasn't always the central thing. And me wasn't always the central thing. And me wasn't always the central thing. And me being, being, being, you know, potential missionary or you know, potential missionary or you know, potential missionary or minister was not the center of minister was not the center of minister was not the center of conversation. And I've always learned to conversation. And I've always learned to conversation. And I've always learned to have those spaces in my life. And I have those spaces in my life. And I have those spaces in my life. And I think it's important for pastors to have think it's important for pastors to have think it's important for pastors to have those spaces, too. Where they are It's those spaces, too. Where they are It's those spaces, too. Where they are It's not just that I have a set of friends not just that I have a set of friends not just that I have a set of friends over here. It's like a community that

over here. It's like a community that over here. It's like a community that has nothing to do with the church, where has nothing to do with the church, where has nothing to do with the church, where you have a common you have a common you have a common ground experience. ground experience. ground experience. Common interest. Common interest beyond Common interest. Common interest beyond Common interest. Common interest beyond that that can be And if you are that that can be And if you are that that can be And if you are genuinely curious about people, it will genuinely curious about people, it will genuinely curious about people, it will start changing you. You will see God start changing you. You will see God start changing you. You will see God work in different ways. And pastors are work in different ways. And pastors are work in different ways. And pastors are smart enough to see the opportunity for smart enough to see the opportunity for smart enough to see the opportunity for their congregations. But they've got to their congregations. But they've got to their congregations. But they've got to get in the experience of it, right? I get in the experience of it, right? I get in the experience of it, right? I mean, we just have to break some of the mean, we just have to break some of the mean, we just have to break some of the cycles of what we're doing to to cycles of what we're doing to to cycles of what we're doing to to experience it. One of the things I've experience it. One of the things I've experience it. One of the things I've seen is a lot of pastors that That's seen is a lot of pastors that That's seen is a lot of pastors that That's really good, Mark. It is. One of the really good, Mark. It is. One of the really good, Mark. It is. One of the things I've seen is a lot of pastors things I've seen is a lot of pastors things I've seen is a lot of pastors respond, pastors and ministry leaders as respond, pastors and ministry leaders as respond, pastors and ministry leaders as I talk about next generation dynamics I talk about next generation dynamics I talk about next generation dynamics or, you know, for for for years now or, you know, for for for years now or, you know, for for for years now people will come up to me afterwards and people will come up to me afterwards and people will come up to me afterwards and say, "Wow, you're describing my say, "Wow, you're describing my say, "Wow, you're describing my 20-something and their world. And you've 20-something and their world. And you've 20-something and their world. And you've given me a like a we'll talk about, you given me a like a we'll talk about, you given me a like a we'll talk about, you know, exiles in digital Babylon." know, exiles in digital Babylon." know, exiles in digital Babylon." Um that they're growing up in a world Um that they're growing up in a world Um that they're growing up in a world that's just more complicated and let's that's just more complicated and let's that's just more complicated and let's have some compassion on on that or have some compassion on on that or have some compassion on on that or whatever. And um and I think that tells whatever. And um and I think that tells whatever. And um and I think that tells tells me something that another tells me something that another tells me something that another practical uh tool tool book is to really practical uh tool tool book is to really practical uh tool tool book is to really become immersed in the world of your become immersed in the world of your become immersed in the world of your kids and grandkids in a way that that's kids and grandkids in a way that that's kids and grandkids in a way that that's like the Orchid Society. Um like there's like the Orchid Society. Um like there's like the Orchid Society. Um like there's a a a I love I love I love my kids and their their their friends my kids and their their their friends my kids and their their their friends and it's like one of the highest and it's like one of the highest and it's like one of the highest compliments like when when one of compliments like when when one of compliments like when when one of Emily's friends uh uh was like, "Man, we Emily's friends uh uh was like, "Man, we Emily's friends uh uh was like, "Man, we just love we love Dave, you know?" And just love we love Dave, you know?" And just love we love Dave, you know?" And just like there cuz I'm interested one just like there cuz I'm interested one just like there cuz I'm interested one of them is from um Bangladesh and I of them is from um Bangladesh and I of them is from um Bangladesh and I asked him to read a book um and he said asked him to read a book um and he said asked him to read a book um and he said he's like, "Oh, you should read read The he's like, "Oh, you should read read The he's like, "Oh, you should read read The Blood Telegram." And it's a little bit Blood Telegram." And it's a little bit Blood Telegram." And it's a little bit about the story of Bangladesh and about the story of Bangladesh and about the story of Bangladesh and Pakistan and like I was interested. I

Pakistan and like I was interested. I Pakistan and like I was interested. I was curious about that. I was like, you was curious about that. I was like, you was curious about that. I was like, you know, so I think this this idea of and know, so I think this this idea of and know, so I think this this idea of and and that relates to another idea is ask and that relates to another idea is ask and that relates to another idea is ask someone to like my sister I was like, someone to like my sister I was like, someone to like my sister I was like, "Give me a book, any book for "Give me a book, any book for "Give me a book, any book for Christmas." And she gave me a book Christmas." And she gave me a book Christmas." And she gave me a book called uh The Midnight Library. called uh The Midnight Library. called uh The Midnight Library. And that was one of the best books I had And that was one of the best books I had And that was one of the best books I had read, a a fiction book, read, a a fiction book, read, a a fiction book, a few years ago. So this notion of a few years ago. So this notion of a few years ago. So this notion of allowing your time to be allowing your time to be allowing your time to be voted on by someone else. And for us, voted on by someone else. And for us, voted on by someone else. And for us, you know, leaders that's a that's a you know, leaders that's a that's a you know, leaders that's a that's a that's a big sacrifice or we we think it that's a big sacrifice or we we think it that's a big sacrifice or we we think it is. Outside of our control. is. Outside of our control. is. Outside of our control. But it turns it turns out that that like But it turns it turns out that that like But it turns it turns out that that like it introduces you to a different lane of it introduces you to a different lane of it introduces you to a different lane of thinking. Um you know, to be interested thinking. Um you know, to be interested thinking. Um you know, to be interested and curious in someone for his own and curious in someone for his own and curious in someone for his own right. And again, I have so much so much right. And again, I have so much so much right. And again, I have so much so much uh room to grow in that. I learn a lot uh room to grow in that. I learn a lot uh room to grow in that. I learn a lot from my friend Mark. from my friend Mark. from my friend Mark. Uh but that's a So much to teach you. Uh but that's a So much to teach you. Uh but that's a So much to teach you. I didn't think you were going to go I didn't think you were going to go I didn't think you were going to go there. That's awesome. there. That's awesome. there. That's awesome. So those are those are some examples So those are those are some examples So those are those are some examples from my life of um yeah, recognizing how from my life of um yeah, recognizing how from my life of um yeah, recognizing how interesting it is to read a book that interesting it is to read a book that interesting it is to read a book that someone else someone else someone else is really interested in for their own is really interested in for their own is really interested in for their own reasons like for for Towsif who's from reasons like for for Towsif who's from reasons like for for Towsif who's from from Bangladesh it's like from Bangladesh it's like from Bangladesh it's like it's a deeply personal story about his it's a deeply personal story about his it's a deeply personal story about his family and all sorts of things and um family and all sorts of things and um family and all sorts of things and um those are those are those are examples those are those are those are examples those are those are those are examples right of of letting letting someone else right of of letting letting someone else right of of letting letting someone else speak into our time which is our most speak into our time which is our most speak into our time which is our most valuable commodity valuable commodity valuable commodity uh to to learn someone else's uh to to learn someone else's uh to to learn someone else's perspective and take that for what it perspective and take that for what it perspective and take that for what it is. I love that it was personal is. I love that it was personal is. I love that it was personal for both of you.

for both of you. for both of you. That's a great first step. So the book That's a great first step. So the book That's a great first step. So the book where a lot of the research is and the where a lot of the research is and the where a lot of the research is and the ideas ideas ideas some of which we barely touched on today some of which we barely touched on today some of which we barely touched on today of Faith for the Curious Mark's new book of Faith for the Curious Mark's new book of Faith for the Curious Mark's new book Mark Matlock and then uh David there's a Mark Matlock and then uh David there's a Mark Matlock and then uh David there's a new initiative with Barna called State new initiative with Barna called State new initiative with Barna called State of the Church 2025 of the Church 2025 of the Church 2025 some of the data in My Church Trends some of the data in My Church Trends some of the data in My Church Trends some of the stuff that we talked about some of the stuff that we talked about some of the stuff that we talked about today and a whole lot more is in there. today and a whole lot more is in there. today and a whole lot more is in there. Where can leaders go to learn more about Where can leaders go to learn more about Where can leaders go to learn more about State of the Church? Uh well barna.com State of the Church? Uh well barna.com State of the Church? Uh well barna.com is one place they can learn about some is one place they can learn about some is one place they can learn about some of the different trends that we're of the different trends that we're of the different trends that we're following but thechurch.com is where following but thechurch.com is where following but thechurch.com is where that whole initiative is housed that whole initiative is housed that whole initiative is housed uh and we love working with our partners uh and we love working with our partners uh and we love working with our partners at Glue and uh what's great is we're at Glue and uh what's great is we're at Glue and uh what's great is we're pulling so many different partners and pulling so many different partners and pulling so many different partners and organizations together. There's there's organizations together. There's there's organizations together. There's there's trends what's working uh what's trending trends what's working uh what's trending trends what's working uh what's trending you know what do we need to know how do you know what do we need to know how do you know what do we need to know how do we actually build flourishing uh we actually build flourishing uh we actually build flourishing uh flourishing people and thriving churches flourishing people and thriving churches flourishing people and thriving churches is really the framework. So we'd love to is really the framework. So we'd love to is really the framework. So we'd love to have you join us in that initiative have you join us in that initiative have you join us in that initiative thechurch.com. All right. Thank you so thechurch.com. All right. Thank you so thechurch.com. All right. Thank you so much Mark David till next time. much Mark David till next time. much Mark David till next time. Thanks for watching. Thanks for Thanks for watching. Thanks for Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening.