How To Hijack the Brain of Your Audience: J.R. Briggs on Why Leaders Are the Best Question Askers

It has made us um what Charles Derber It has made us um what Charles Derber calls conversational narcissists calls conversational narcissists calls conversational narcissists and the cultural headwinds and the cultural headwinds and the cultural headwinds >> push us to rush to judgment, not >> push us to rush to judgment, not >> push us to rush to judgment, not curiosity. I don't mean to sound like curiosity. I don't mean to sound like curiosity. I don't mean to sound like Ted Lasso here, but there's so much Ted Lasso here, but there's so much Ted Lasso here, but there's so much media and government leaders, you know, media and government leaders, you know, media and government leaders, you know, social media, but that conversational social media, but that conversational social media, but that conversational narcissism where the arrows are pointing narcissism where the arrows are pointing narcissism where the arrows are pointing in and the joke is, you know, enough in and the joke is, you know, enough in and the joke is, you know, enough about me. What do you think about me? about me. What do you think about me? about me. What do you think about me? >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff >> Welcome to the Carrie New Hoff leadership podcast. Hey, I've been in leadership podcast. Hey, I've been in leadership podcast. Hey, I've been in Nashville a lot this fall and if you're Nashville a lot this fall and if you're Nashville a lot this fall and if you're following me on Instagram, you would see following me on Instagram, you would see following me on Instagram, you would see a lot of behind the-scenes footage for a lot of behind the-scenes footage for a lot of behind the-scenes footage for this podcast, some time with Henry this podcast, some time with Henry this podcast, some time with Henry Cloud, John Christ, Patrick Lencion, and Cloud, John Christ, Patrick Lencion, and Cloud, John Christ, Patrick Lencion, and many others. And today, I want to get many others. And today, I want to get many others. And today, I want to get better at asking questions. So, I better at asking questions. So, I better at asking questions. So, I invited J.R. [music] Briggs onto the invited J.R. [music] Briggs onto the invited J.R. [music] Briggs onto the podcast. He is an author. He is a podcast. He is an author. He is a podcast. He is an author. He is a professor. [music] And you know what? We professor. [music] And you know what? We professor. [music] And you know what? We don't ask questions very well in our don't ask questions very well in our don't ask questions very well in our culture anymore. Maybe you've noticed culture anymore. Maybe you've noticed culture anymore. Maybe you've noticed that when you're out with friends. that when you're out with friends. that when you're out with friends. [music] Uh, and as a leader, questions [music] Uh, and as a leader, questions [music] Uh, and as a leader, questions make you better. In fact, if you're a make you better. In fact, if you're a make you better. In fact, if you're a communicator, we'll show you how to communicator, we'll show you how to communicator, we'll show you how to hijack the brain of your audience so hijack the brain of your audience so hijack the brain of your audience so [music] they have to pay attention [music] they have to pay attention [music] they have to pay attention because of what you say. So, without because of what you say. So, without because of what you say. So, without further ado, let's dive right [music] in further ado, let's dive right [music] in further ado, let's dive right [music] in to my conversation with J.R. Briggs.

to my conversation with J.R. Briggs. to my conversation with J.R. Briggs. Well, J.R., welcome. Really good to have Well, J.R., welcome. Really good to have Well, J.R., welcome. Really good to have you. you. you. >> Thanks so much, Carrie. It's a joy to be >> Thanks so much, Carrie. It's a joy to be >> Thanks so much, Carrie. It's a joy to be here on the show. here on the show. here on the show. >> You've done an impossible feat. You >> You've done an impossible feat. You >> You've done an impossible feat. You wrote a uh book on questions that was wrote a uh book on questions that was wrote a uh book on questions that was fascinating from start to finish. So, fascinating from start to finish. So, fascinating from start to finish. So, congratulations. I [laughter] I told you congratulations. I [laughter] I told you congratulations. I [laughter] I told you I went out and got my own copy because I I went out and got my own copy because I I went out and got my own copy because I want it in my library. It's like want it in my library. It's like want it in my library. It's like normally you read the PDF. Okay, I'm normally you read the PDF. Okay, I'm normally you read the PDF. Okay, I'm ready for the interview. But like, man, ready for the interview. But like, man, ready for the interview. But like, man, great job. great job. great job. >> Thanks so much. I really appreciate >> Thanks so much. I really appreciate >> Thanks so much. I really appreciate that. that. that. >> How did you become interested in asking >> How did you become interested in asking >> How did you become interested in asking questions because this has been a questions because this has been a questions because this has been a 10-year project. 10-year project. 10-year project. >> Yeah, several factors. I was fortunate >> Yeah, several factors. I was fortunate >> Yeah, several factors. I was fortunate enough to grow up in a home where this enough to grow up in a home where this enough to grow up in a home where this was modeled well. I know not everybody was modeled well. I know not everybody was modeled well. I know not everybody has that opportunity, both my parents, has that opportunity, both my parents, has that opportunity, both my parents, but especially my father. And I just but especially my father. And I just but especially my father. And I just watched the way he would interact with watched the way he would interact with watched the way he would interact with my brother and me and with neighbors and my brother and me and with neighbors and my brother and me and with neighbors and people in the narex at church and and I people in the narex at church and and I people in the narex at church and and I just found myself saying, "Wow, he's just found myself saying, "Wow, he's just found myself saying, "Wow, he's really involved in a lot of interesting really involved in a lot of interesting really involved in a lot of interesting conversations." And so that was modeled conversations." And so that was modeled conversations." And so that was modeled really well. I also began to see it as a really well. I also began to see it as a really well. I also began to see it as a powerful tool by watching my father and powerful tool by watching my father and powerful tool by watching my father and others utilize that and what you could others utilize that and what you could others utilize that and what you could learn and the amount of depth and learn and the amount of depth and learn and the amount of depth and connection that was was happening connection that was was happening connection that was was happening because of it. And then I began to because of it. And then I began to because of it. And then I began to notice a pattern. the people that I notice a pattern. the people that I notice a pattern. the people that I admired admired admired that their lives were inspiring. I was that their lives were inspiring. I was that their lives were inspiring. I was drawn to them. I wanted to be like them.

drawn to them. I wanted to be like them. drawn to them. I wanted to be like them. I realized they asked great questions. I realized they asked great questions. I realized they asked great questions. And the people that lived somewhat small And the people that lived somewhat small And the people that lived somewhat small and uninspiring lives where I wasn't and uninspiring lives where I wasn't and uninspiring lives where I wasn't drawn to spend a lot of time with them, drawn to spend a lot of time with them, drawn to spend a lot of time with them, I've found that they weren't asking many I've found that they weren't asking many I've found that they weren't asking many questions. And I realized that everyone questions. And I realized that everyone questions. And I realized that everyone asked questions, but the difference was asked questions, but the difference was asked questions, but the difference was the quality and the frequency of the the quality and the frequency of the the quality and the frequency of the questions. And so I began a social questions. And so I began a social questions. And so I began a social experiment several years ago and said, experiment several years ago and said, experiment several years ago and said, you know, I'm going to try this out you know, I'm going to try this out you know, I'm going to try this out myself in informal conversations and myself in informal conversations and myself in informal conversations and just see if I were to stretch myself just see if I were to stretch myself just see if I were to stretch myself just a little bit more by asking some just a little bit more by asking some just a little bit more by asking some more thoughtful and engaging questions, more thoughtful and engaging questions, more thoughtful and engaging questions, could I interact with people and find it could I interact with people and find it could I interact with people and find it to be richer and more interesting and to be richer and more interesting and to be richer and more interesting and enjoyable and connecting and it enjoyable and connecting and it enjoyable and connecting and it absolutely was. And then the last absolutely was. And then the last absolutely was. And then the last element, Carrie, was I just did a deep element, Carrie, was I just did a deep element, Carrie, was I just did a deep dive in trying to learn the questions of dive in trying to learn the questions of dive in trying to learn the questions of Jesus and began to realize that my Jesus and began to realize that my Jesus and began to realize that my goodness, here's the way, the truth, and goodness, here's the way, the truth, and goodness, here's the way, the truth, and the life. If anybody had the right to the life. If anybody had the right to the life. If anybody had the right to never ask a question again, it would be never ask a question again, it would be never ask a question again, it would be Jesus. And yet, he asked over 300 of Jesus. And yet, he asked over 300 of Jesus. And yet, he asked over 300 of them. And the amount of change and them. And the amount of change and them. And the amount of change and transformation that occurred when a transformation that occurred when a transformation that occurred when a question was asked by him, I began to question was asked by him, I began to question was asked by him, I began to say, I need to pay attention to this.

say, I need to pay attention to this. say, I need to pay attention to this. There's some power here. some we need to There's some power here. some we need to There's some power here. some we need to wake up this latent giant of this tool wake up this latent giant of this tool wake up this latent giant of this tool that God created called questions. And that God created called questions. And that God created called questions. And so I just realized that asking great so I just realized that asking great so I just realized that asking great questions has the power and the questions has the power and the questions has the power and the potential to improve the quality of potential to improve the quality of potential to improve the quality of every single area of our lives. In fact, every single area of our lives. In fact, every single area of our lives. In fact, I can't think of a single area of our I can't think of a single area of our I can't think of a single area of our lives. We're improving the quality of lives. We're improving the quality of lives. We're improving the quality of our questions will not improve the our questions will not improve the our questions will not improve the quality of our lives and the lives of quality of our lives and the lives of quality of our lives and the lives of the people around us. And so that was the people around us. And so that was the people around us. And so that was those factors were the driving force those factors were the driving force those factors were the driving force behind really realizing we've got to pay behind really realizing we've got to pay behind really realizing we've got to pay attention to questions. They're there. attention to questions. They're there. attention to questions. They're there. I'm just not sure we realize how I'm just not sure we realize how I'm just not sure we realize how powerful they are and what a tool they powerful they are and what a tool they powerful they are and what a tool they can be. can be. can be. >> Is question asking somehow connected to >> Is question asking somehow connected to >> Is question asking somehow connected to EQ, emotional intelligence, and if so, EQ, emotional intelligence, and if so, EQ, emotional intelligence, and if so, how so? how so? how so? >> I have wondered this many times. I've >> I have wondered this many times. I've >> I have wondered this many times. I've not seen any studies on this directly. I not seen any studies on this directly. I not seen any studies on this directly. I do think the questions we ask ourselves do think the questions we ask ourselves do think the questions we ask ourselves has a huge influence on our EQ. The has a huge influence on our EQ. The has a huge influence on our EQ. The questions that questions that questions that >> yeah the questions we may not verbalize >> yeah the questions we may not verbalize >> yeah the questions we may not verbalize out out of our mouth but the questions out out of our mouth but the questions out out of our mouth but the questions we're asking like how am I being read in we're asking like how am I being read in we're asking like how am I being read in this room? Uh how are others perceiving this room? Uh how are others perceiving this room? Uh how are others perceiving me? Right? Those are some of the key me? Right? Those are some of the key me? Right? Those are some of the key elements of of high EQ. And so being elements of of high EQ. And so being elements of of high EQ. And so being able to see myself in someone else's able to see myself in someone else's able to see myself in someone else's shoes requires me to to ask some of shoes requires me to to ask some of shoes requires me to to ask some of those questions. um how you know where those questions. um how you know where those questions. um how you know where am I adding to the conversation? Where am I adding to the conversation? Where am I adding to the conversation? Where am I adding value? Where am I getting in am I adding value? Where am I getting in am I adding value? Where am I getting in the way? Am I being too loud? Am I the way? Am I being too loud? Am I the way? Am I being too loud? Am I talking too much? I mean, these are all talking too much? I mean, these are all

talking too much? I mean, these are all self diagnostic questions that we have self diagnostic questions that we have self diagnostic questions that we have to have to ask ourselves first. And I I to have to ask ourselves first. And I I to have to ask ourselves first. And I I think there there is an element to that. think there there is an element to that. think there there is an element to that. I I have been around those who struggled I I have been around those who struggled I I have been around those who struggled with EQ and sometimes they when I'm with EQ and sometimes they when I'm with EQ and sometimes they when I'm coaching some of them, they say, "I want coaching some of them, they say, "I want coaching some of them, they say, "I want to get better at that." I I I actually to get better at that." I I I actually to get better at that." I I I actually start with questions and say we've got start with questions and say we've got start with questions and say we've got to think about the frequency and the to think about the frequency and the to think about the frequency and the types of questions we ask ourselves types of questions we ask ourselves types of questions we ask ourselves before we act or before we open our before we act or before we open our before we act or before we open our mouths. And so seeing some change on mouths. And so seeing some change on mouths. And so seeing some change on that has started with those. But I've that has started with those. But I've that has started with those. But I've not seen some studies. I'd love to see not seen some studies. I'd love to see not seen some studies. I'd love to see some studies if they're available. Um some studies if they're available. Um some studies if they're available. Um because I think that's a a very because I think that's a a very because I think that's a a very important uh research project if it's important uh research project if it's important uh research project if it's not. not. not. >> Well, that's good to know. You actually >> Well, that's good to know. You actually >> Well, that's good to know. You actually did your research like this is not just did your research like this is not just did your research like this is not just you know musings on questions. It's like you know musings on questions. It's like you know musings on questions. It's like a It's an accessible scholarly work a It's an accessible scholarly work a It's an accessible scholarly work which I really appreciated. But you which I really appreciated. But you which I really appreciated. But you know, my wife and I, this has been like know, my wife and I, this has been like know, my wife and I, this has been like a a a a theme that we probably dug out at a theme that we probably dug out at a theme that we probably dug out at least a decade ago. Maybe this goes back least a decade ago. Maybe this goes back least a decade ago. Maybe this goes back 15 years. It's come up from time to time 15 years. It's come up from time to time 15 years. It's come up from time to time on this podcast. I remember having a on this podcast. I remember having a on this podcast. I remember having a meaningful conversation with Gordon meaningful conversation with Gordon meaningful conversation with Gordon McDonald on one of the episodes he was McDonald on one of the episodes he was McDonald on one of the episodes he was on. And it's a pet peeve of him and his on. And it's a pet peeve of him and his on. And it's a pet peeve of him and his wife, too. Like sometimes you can go out wife, too. Like sometimes you can go out wife, too. Like sometimes you can go out and you can spend two or three hours at and you can spend two or three hours at and you can spend two or three hours at a dinner, you know, on a trip, um, you a dinner, you know, on a trip, um, you a dinner, you know, on a trip, um, you know, in some kind of interaction and know, in some kind of interaction and know, in some kind of interaction and nobody asks you a single question. So, I nobody asks you a single question. So, I nobody asks you a single question. So, I want to break that down a little bit. Is want to break that down a little bit. Is want to break that down a little bit. Is the art of conversation dying? And I the art of conversation dying? And I the art of conversation dying? And I want to give you my theory and I want want to give you my theory and I want want to give you my theory and I want you to have blow it apart. I'm thinking,

you to have blow it apart. I'm thinking, you to have blow it apart. I'm thinking, and maybe this is like a superficial and maybe this is like a superficial and maybe this is like a superficial analysis, but like since social media analysis, but like since social media analysis, but like since social media came along, the pattern I've noticed is came along, the pattern I've noticed is came along, the pattern I've noticed is that we give each other status updates. that we give each other status updates. that we give each other status updates. Like you may not ask me a question, but Like you may not ask me a question, but Like you may not ask me a question, but I'm going to volunteer information I'm going to volunteer information I'm going to volunteer information whether you asked it or not. And then whether you asked it or not. And then whether you asked it or not. And then unrelated to what I just said, you're unrelated to what I just said, you're unrelated to what I just said, you're going to give me a status update on what going to give me a status update on what going to give me a status update on what you did or what you're thinking. and you did or what you're thinking. and you did or what you're thinking. and then I'm gonna return not the volley but then I'm gonna return not the volley but then I'm gonna return not the volley but I might start a whole other subject or I might start a whole other subject or I might start a whole other subject or we just like it's weird because it's not we just like it's weird because it's not we just like it's weird because it's not cause and effect and you know I'm old cause and effect and you know I'm old cause and effect and you know I'm old enough to have a long pre-digital memory enough to have a long pre-digital memory enough to have a long pre-digital memory conversation was a lot of cause and conversation was a lot of cause and conversation was a lot of cause and effect like oh how about this or oh yeah effect like oh how about this or oh yeah effect like oh how about this or oh yeah that's interesting oh well you know that that's interesting oh well you know that that's interesting oh well you know that made me think about and that seems to made me think about and that seems to made me think about and that seems to have died and like my wife spent three have died and like my wife spent three have died and like my wife spent three or four hours just very recently before or four hours just very recently before or four hours just very recently before we recorded this episode out with we recorded this episode out with we recorded this episode out with someone who shall be nameless someone who shall be nameless someone who shall be nameless She made 3 or 4 hours of conversation, She made 3 or 4 hours of conversation, She made 3 or 4 hours of conversation, not one question back at her. And I wish not one question back at her. And I wish not one question back at her. And I wish I could tell you this was a isolated I could tell you this was a isolated I could tell you this was a isolated incident. So, please feel free to incident. So, please feel free to incident. So, please feel free to disagree, comment, but are you seeing disagree, comment, but are you seeing disagree, comment, but are you seeing that? Like, what's going on?

that? Like, what's going on? that? Like, what's going on? >> Yes. And unfortunately, that is common. >> Yes. And unfortunately, that is common. >> Yes. And unfortunately, that is common. My wife and I actually have a code word My wife and I actually have a code word My wife and I actually have a code word for this. If I'm meeting someone for for this. If I'm meeting someone for for this. If I'm meeting someone for lunch, sometimes this happens uh more lunch, sometimes this happens uh more lunch, sometimes this happens uh more frequently than I than I would enjoy. Um frequently than I than I would enjoy. Um frequently than I than I would enjoy. Um but when I come home, she How was your but when I come home, she How was your but when I come home, she How was your lunch today? And I said, "Waitress." And lunch today? And I said, "Waitress." And lunch today? And I said, "Waitress." And that's our code word meaning I ate my that's our code word meaning I ate my that's our code word meaning I ate my meal. My waitress the waitress took my meal. My waitress the waitress took my meal. My waitress the waitress took my plate away before the other person took plate away before the other person took plate away before the other person took a bite or two. And uh and even giving a bite or two. And uh and even giving a bite or two. And uh and even giving pauses. It's not like I'm just rapid pauses. It's not like I'm just rapid pauses. It's not like I'm just rapid fire, you know, but of just allowing fire, you know, but of just allowing fire, you know, but of just allowing spaces for them to ask and it still spaces for them to ask and it still spaces for them to ask and it still wasn't returned. And we know that wasn't returned. And we know that wasn't returned. And we know that feeling. That's a it's a very lonely feeling. That's a it's a very lonely feeling. That's a it's a very lonely feeling. I say that not for pity points feeling. I say that not for pity points feeling. I say that not for pity points but of just saying yes, this this is a but of just saying yes, this this is a but of just saying yes, this this is a major issue. And and I think this is an major issue. And and I think this is an major issue. And and I think this is an issue just in the last couple decades issue just in the last couple decades issue just in the last couple decades actually because um and I I actually actually because um and I I actually actually because um and I I actually think your theory I think you're right think your theory I think you're right think your theory I think you're right on the ubiquity of [clears throat] on the ubiquity of [clears throat] on the ubiquity of [clears throat] screens now um in fact you just just screens now um in fact you just just screens now um in fact you just just look around at a gate when you're look around at a gate when you're look around at a gate when you're waiting for your to catch your next waiting for your to catch your next waiting for your to catch your next flight the screens have already won. flight the screens have already won. flight the screens have already won. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. And >> Yeah. Yeah. And >> Yeah. Yeah. And >> so, um, because of that, it has made us, >> so, um, because of that, it has made us, >> so, um, because of that, it has made us, um, what Charles Derber calls um, what Charles Derber calls um, what Charles Derber calls conversational narcissists.

conversational narcissists. conversational narcissists. >> And the cultural headwinds >> And the cultural headwinds >> And the cultural headwinds >> push us to rush to judgment, not >> push us to rush to judgment, not >> push us to rush to judgment, not curiosity. I don't mean to sound like curiosity. I don't mean to sound like curiosity. I don't mean to sound like Ted Lasso here, but there's so much Ted Lasso here, but there's so much Ted Lasso here, but there's so much media and government leaders, you know, media and government leaders, you know, media and government leaders, you know, social media, but that conversational social media, but that conversational social media, but that conversational narcissism where the arrows are pointing narcissism where the arrows are pointing narcissism where the arrows are pointing in and the joke is, you know, enough in and the joke is, you know, enough in and the joke is, you know, enough about me. What do you think about me? about me. What do you think about me? about me. What do you think about me? Right? And that's sort of the world in Right? And that's sort of the world in Right? And that's sort of the world in which we live in, [gasps] right? But the which we live in, [gasps] right? But the which we live in, [gasps] right? But the definition even of leadership has been definition even of leadership has been definition even of leadership has been buttressed by the idea of an expert buttressed by the idea of an expert buttressed by the idea of an expert thought leader. I'm I'm trying to thought leader. I'm I'm trying to thought leader. I'm I'm trying to imagine what would it be like if we were imagine what would it be like if we were imagine what would it be like if we were able to platform people who are question able to platform people who are question able to platform people who are question leaders instead of just thought leaders. leaders instead of just thought leaders. leaders instead of just thought leaders. And um [clears throat] and so there's And um [clears throat] and so there's And um [clears throat] and so there's there's a countercultural side to it. there's a countercultural side to it. there's a countercultural side to it. And is it a lot of work? Yes. Um but it And is it a lot of work? Yes. Um but it And is it a lot of work? Yes. Um but it is so worth it if we're willing to do is so worth it if we're willing to do is so worth it if we're willing to do that. And then I think the pandemic, that. And then I think the pandemic, that. And then I think the pandemic, we're still seeing downstream we're still seeing downstream we're still seeing downstream consequences of the pandemic and screens consequences of the pandemic and screens consequences of the pandemic and screens and that mixture together I really and that mixture together I really and that mixture together I really believe is an issue. Um former uh US believe is an issue. Um former uh US believe is an issue. Um former uh US surgeon general um Vivic Murthy I mean surgeon general um Vivic Murthy I mean surgeon general um Vivic Murthy I mean he his book together came out just like he his book together came out just like he his book together came out just like two months before the pandemic hit and two months before the pandemic hit and two months before the pandemic hit and he's called it an epidemic of loneliness he's called it an epidemic of loneliness he's called it an epidemic of loneliness and of course it just got worse when the and of course it just got worse when the and of course it just got worse when the pandemic went on. So, I I think your pandemic went on. So, I I think your pandemic went on. So, I I think your theory I think you're you're right on theory I think you're you're right on theory I think you're you're right on when it comes to screens and when it comes to screens and when it comes to screens and volunteering. Whether people want to volunteering. Whether people want to volunteering. Whether people want to hear it or not, I'm just going to blast hear it or not, I'm just going to blast hear it or not, I'm just going to blast it out and you're going to hear what I'm it out and you're going to hear what I'm it out and you're going to hear what I'm what what my update is on my life. So, what what my update is on my life. So, what what my update is on my life. So, [snorts] you know, oh boy, there's so [snorts] you know, oh boy, there's so [snorts] you know, oh boy, there's so many places I want to go here, J.R., um, many places I want to go here, J.R., um, many places I want to go here, J.R., um, you know, one argument, I mean, you know, one argument, I mean, you know, one argument, I mean, increasingly those of us with

increasingly those of us with increasingly those of us with pre-digital memories are going extinct, pre-digital memories are going extinct, pre-digital memories are going extinct, right? like, you know, digital natives right? like, you know, digital natives right? like, you know, digital natives are now in their 30s. You know, they got are now in their 30s. You know, they got are now in their 30s. You know, they got smartphones when they were in high smartphones when they were in high smartphones when they were in high school, etc., etc. And I mean, Gen Z, school, etc., etc. And I mean, Gen Z, school, etc., etc. And I mean, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, totally immersed in the Gen Alpha, totally immersed in the Gen Alpha, totally immersed in the digital universe from the time they were digital universe from the time they were digital universe from the time they were born, you know, iPads as babysitters, born, you know, iPads as babysitters, born, you know, iPads as babysitters, the whole deal. So, you can make an the whole deal. So, you can make an the whole deal. So, you can make an argument that culture changes, right? argument that culture changes, right? argument that culture changes, right? That, okay, you're you're old. This is That, okay, you're you're old. This is That, okay, you're you're old. This is how you do conversation. This is not how how you do conversation. This is not how how you do conversation. This is not how the world today does conversation. get the world today does conversation. get the world today does conversation. get with the program. So, I'm I'm open to with the program. So, I'm I'm open to with the program. So, I'm I'm open to the fact that that might be an argument. the fact that that might be an argument. the fact that that might be an argument. But my question is, if that becomes the But my question is, if that becomes the But my question is, if that becomes the norm, right, where it's conversational norm, right, where it's conversational norm, right, where it's conversational narcissism and status updates flung at narcissism and status updates flung at narcissism and status updates flung at each other, what are we losing, JR? each other, what are we losing, JR? each other, what are we losing, JR? Like, what what what is at stake here? Like, what what what is at stake here? Like, what what what is at stake here? Yeah. One word, I think we're at risk of Yeah. One word, I think we're at risk of Yeah. One word, I think we're at risk of losing connection and that is connection losing connection and that is connection losing connection and that is connection could be new ideas, could be creativity, could be new ideas, could be creativity, could be new ideas, could be creativity, new perspective, but especially in new perspective, but especially in new perspective, but especially in relationship. So, here's the God of the relationship. So, here's the God of the relationship. So, here's the God of the universe who knows everything and yet he universe who knows everything and yet he universe who knows everything and yet he still asks tons of questions in the Old still asks tons of questions in the Old still asks tons of questions in the Old Testament. And I would say that if God Testament. And I would say that if God Testament. And I would say that if God could ask that and those questions still could ask that and those questions still could ask that and those questions still ring true and teach us new things ring true and teach us new things ring true and teach us new things millennia later, uh I I think questions millennia later, uh I I think questions millennia later, uh I I think questions uh don't have a shelf life. They may uh don't have a shelf life. They may uh don't have a shelf life. They may look different. They may be valued to look different. They may be valued to look different. They may be valued to different uh generations but when I look different uh generations but when I look different uh generations but when I look at this and say man if there you know at this and say man if there you know at this and say man if there you know God knows everything and yet he God knows everything and yet he God knows everything and yet he continues to ask questions but it's not

continues to ask questions but it's not continues to ask questions but it's not for information. We as finite beings we for information. We as finite beings we for information. We as finite beings we need questions for information. We have need questions for information. We have need questions for information. We have our limits of course but here's a god our limits of course but here's a god our limits of course but here's a god who has no limits and yet he still asks who has no limits and yet he still asks who has no limits and yet he still asks question after question after question. question after question after question. question after question after question. Why? For connection to connect with his Why? For connection to connect with his Why? For connection to connect with his own creation. And I can't name a single own creation. And I can't name a single own creation. And I can't name a single healthy relationship that I have in my healthy relationship that I have in my healthy relationship that I have in my life that has not been cultivated life that has not been cultivated life that has not been cultivated without questions and vulnerability and without questions and vulnerability and without questions and vulnerability and intimacy. All that happens and those intimacy. All that happens and those intimacy. All that happens and those skids are greased by the questions that skids are greased by the questions that skids are greased by the questions that we ask one another. Questions as we ask one another. Questions as we ask one another. Questions as connection. connection. connection. That's a really interesting framing That's a really interesting framing That's a really interesting framing because you mentioned you mentioned a because you mentioned you mentioned a because you mentioned you mentioned a downstream impact of the pandemic which downstream impact of the pandemic which downstream impact of the pandemic which is now for all intents and purposes 6 is now for all intents and purposes 6 is now for all intents and purposes 6 years ago. years ago. years ago. >> It kind of went away and then in mid >> It kind of went away and then in mid >> It kind of went away and then in mid 2025 I started hearing a lot of leaders 2025 I started hearing a lot of leaders 2025 I started hearing a lot of leaders I'm talking to talking about still I'm talking to talking about still I'm talking to talking about still recovering from and we're not talking recovering from and we're not talking recovering from and we're not talking about church attendance anymore. We're about church attendance anymore. We're about church attendance anymore. We're not talking about staffing but they're not talking about staffing but they're not talking about staffing but they're saying man this seems to be lingering.

saying man this seems to be lingering. saying man this seems to be lingering. So what happened to question asking or So what happened to question asking or So what happened to question asking or to the way we communicate during the to the way we communicate during the to the way we communicate during the pandemic? pandemic? pandemic? >> I think exhaustion really set in and is >> I think exhaustion really set in and is >> I think exhaustion really set in and is still set in as I work with a lot of still set in as I work with a lot of still set in as I work with a lot of leaders like you do as well. Those leaders like you do as well. Those leaders like you do as well. Those kingdom leaders are saying I think my kingdom leaders are saying I think my kingdom leaders are saying I think my adrenal glands are shot. You know I adrenal glands are shot. You know I adrenal glands are shot. You know I could go on adrenaline for a while but could go on adrenaline for a while but could go on adrenaline for a while but because my adrenal glands are shot I because my adrenal glands are shot I because my adrenal glands are shot I just don't know if I have the effort. I just don't know if I have the effort. I just don't know if I have the effort. I mean I could I could ask questions. I mean I could I could ask questions. I mean I could I could ask questions. I could reach out for connection, could reach out for connection, could reach out for connection, >> but sometimes I just want to veg on the >> but sometimes I just want to veg on the >> but sometimes I just want to veg on the couch and just watch Netflix and doom couch and just watch Netflix and doom couch and just watch Netflix and doom scroll and sometimes that becomes a, you scroll and sometimes that becomes a, you scroll and sometimes that becomes a, you know, our escape. And so I'm not, we do know, our escape. And so I'm not, we do know, our escape. And so I'm not, we do need those down times. And I'm not I'm need those down times. And I'm not I'm need those down times. And I'm not I'm not saying we should do away with those not saying we should do away with those not saying we should do away with those entirely. entirely. entirely. But but there is that exhaustion that's But but there is that exhaustion that's But but there is that exhaustion that's beyond just getting a long nap. And uh beyond just getting a long nap. And uh beyond just getting a long nap. And uh and I'm concerned for leaders even and I'm concerned for leaders even and I'm concerned for leaders even though yeah we think really we've moved though yeah we think really we've moved though yeah we think really we've moved on from from co I still think that those on from from co I still think that those on from from co I still think that those effects are lingering um you know when effects are lingering um you know when effects are lingering um you know when it comes to trauma we talk about the it comes to trauma we talk about the it comes to trauma we talk about the body keeps the score I think exhaustion body keeps the score I think exhaustion body keeps the score I think exhaustion the body keeps the score as well and the body keeps the score as well and the body keeps the score as well and when our adrenal glands are shot you when our adrenal glands are shot you when our adrenal glands are shot you know and I know you've you know you you know and I know you've you know you you know and I know you've you know you you had your own season of burnout as a lot had your own season of burnout as a lot had your own season of burnout as a lot of leaders have um go you know of leaders have um go you know of leaders have um go you know adrenaline your adrenal glands are shot adrenaline your adrenal glands are shot adrenaline your adrenal glands are shot and there's just nothing left in the and there's just nothing left in the and there's just nothing left in the tank. So, I do think that's a factor.

tank. So, I do think that's a factor. tank. So, I do think that's a factor. I'm not sure it's all burnout. I just I'm not sure it's all burnout. I just I'm not sure it's all burnout. I just think it's, you know, lower lowercase a think it's, you know, lower lowercase a think it's, you know, lower lowercase a acidia that sets in that just says, you acidia that sets in that just says, you acidia that sets in that just says, you know, I'm just too tired to care know, I'm just too tired to care know, I'm just too tired to care anymore. You know, we sort of one of the anymore. You know, we sort of one of the anymore. You know, we sort of one of the seven deadly sins. We call it sloth, but seven deadly sins. We call it sloth, but seven deadly sins. We call it sloth, but it really the word is acidia it really the word is acidia it really the word is acidia >> of just a a spiritual torper. Just a I >> of just a a spiritual torper. Just a I >> of just a a spiritual torper. Just a I just don't know if I've got it anymore. just don't know if I've got it anymore. just don't know if I've got it anymore. And so, I just I'm too tired to care. And so, I just I'm too tired to care. And so, I just I'm too tired to care. Um, so that concerns me a little bit. Um, so that concerns me a little bit. Um, so that concerns me a little bit. that's bigger than questions. But I do that's bigger than questions. But I do that's bigger than questions. But I do think that has connected to questions uh think that has connected to questions uh think that has connected to questions uh significantly as well. significantly as well. significantly as well. >> One of the stresses that or one of the >> One of the stresses that or one of the >> One of the stresses that or one of the the positions leaders have, right? We've the positions leaders have, right? We've the positions leaders have, right? We've we've talked before on this show many we've talked before on this show many we've talked before on this show many times about when you get to a certain times about when you get to a certain times about when you get to a certain position on the org chart. Um you stop position on the org chart. Um you stop position on the org chart. Um you stop hearing the truth. Truth is the first hearing the truth. Truth is the first hearing the truth. Truth is the first casualty. First casualty of war, first casualty. First casualty of war, first casualty. First casualty of war, first casualty of leadership, right? like if I casualty of leadership, right? like if I casualty of leadership, right? like if I have the power to hire and fire you, why have the power to hire and fire you, why have the power to hire and fire you, why would you give me 100% of the truth? But would you give me 100% of the truth? But would you give me 100% of the truth? But I think one of the other things that I think one of the other things that I think one of the other things that happens that we haven't talked about or happens that we haven't talked about or happens that we haven't talked about or explored as much JR is that when you explored as much JR is that when you explored as much JR is that when you become a leader, you are seen to be the become a leader, you are seen to be the become a leader, you are seen to be the answer person, right? Like you are the answer person, right? Like you are the answer person, right? Like you are the one who has got it all figured out. And one who has got it all figured out. And one who has got it all figured out. And of course, if you sat in that chair for of course, if you sat in that chair for of course, if you sat in that chair for 20 minutes, you know that [laughter] 20 minutes, you know that [laughter] 20 minutes, you know that [laughter] we're all making this up as we go along.

we're all making this up as we go along. we're all making this up as we go along. But, you know, I am anyway. I definitely But, you know, I am anyway. I definitely But, you know, I am anyway. I definitely am. Um, but it's it's one of those am. Um, but it's it's one of those am. Um, but it's it's one of those things where I found myself, you know, things where I found myself, you know, things where I found myself, you know, because I've been in senior leadership because I've been in senior leadership because I've been in senior leadership for three decades now. I've only been for three decades now. I've only been for three decades now. I've only been the lead pastor or the CEO now for 30 the lead pastor or the CEO now for 30 the lead pastor or the CEO now for 30 years. And the occupational hazard of years. And the occupational hazard of years. And the occupational hazard of that is that people always come to me that is that people always come to me that is that people always come to me with questions and I am tempted to just with questions and I am tempted to just with questions and I am tempted to just give answers. So, I've had to really give answers. So, I've had to really give answers. So, I've had to really cultivate staying curious. How much is cultivate staying curious. How much is cultivate staying curious. How much is that a factor for leaders when you stop that a factor for leaders when you stop that a factor for leaders when you stop asking questions or when you're always asking questions or when you're always asking questions or when you're always the quote answer person? the quote answer person? the quote answer person? >> Yeah, it's a there's a cultural >> Yeah, it's a there's a cultural >> Yeah, it's a there's a cultural expectation that exists. I mean, the expectation that exists. I mean, the expectation that exists. I mean, the expectation is to have that intelligent, expectation is to have that intelligent, expectation is to have that intelligent, confident, articulate, charismatic and confident, articulate, charismatic and confident, articulate, charismatic and let's just be honest, male leader let's just be honest, male leader let's just be honest, male leader upfront giving all the answers, right? upfront giving all the answers, right? upfront giving all the answers, right? And so, uh, what I love this quote from And so, uh, what I love this quote from And so, uh, what I love this quote from Peter Ducker, you know, the Peter Ducker, you know, the Peter Ducker, you know, the organizational guru. I mean he said this organizational guru. I mean he said this organizational guru. I mean he said this I don't know a few decades ago but he I don't know a few decades ago but he I don't know a few decades ago but he said the leader of the past may have said the leader of the past may have said the leader of the past may have been the person who knew how to tell but been the person who knew how to tell but been the person who knew how to tell but the leader of the future will be the one the leader of the future will be the one the leader of the future will be the one who knows how to ask. And I think that's who knows how to ask. And I think that's who knows how to ask. And I think that's more true now more true now more true now >> than it was a few decades ago when he >> than it was a few decades ago when he >> than it was a few decades ago when he said that. And so that fundamental shift said that. And so that fundamental shift said that. And so that fundamental shift from leader as answergiver to leader as from leader as answergiver to leader as from leader as answergiver to leader as lead question asker is it takes some lead question asker is it takes some lead question asker is it takes some courage because it is countercultural.

courage because it is countercultural. courage because it is countercultural. And younger generations have expressed And younger generations have expressed And younger generations have expressed that they would rather have a guide on that they would rather have a guide on that they would rather have a guide on the side than a sage on the stage, the side than a sage on the stage, the side than a sage on the stage, right? And so we need to pay attention right? And so we need to pay attention right? And so we need to pay attention to that. Um because I think I think to that. Um because I think I think to that. Um because I think I think there is a possibility even though faces there is a possibility even though faces there is a possibility even though faces are in screens maybe more with younger are in screens maybe more with younger are in screens maybe more with younger generations, they really do desire a generations, they really do desire a generations, they really do desire a guide on the side a lot more than a sage guide on the side a lot more than a sage guide on the side a lot more than a sage on the stage. Doesn't mean it goes away, on the stage. Doesn't mean it goes away, on the stage. Doesn't mean it goes away, but they want that person but they want that person but they want that person shouldertoshoulder walking alongside of shouldertoshoulder walking alongside of shouldertoshoulder walking alongside of them asking questions because they them asking questions because they them asking questions because they haven't always had that in their lives. haven't always had that in their lives. haven't always had that in their lives. And so I think that um that's going to And so I think that um that's going to And so I think that um that's going to be a key factor moving forward in be a key factor moving forward in be a key factor moving forward in reaching younger generations. Even how reaching younger generations. Even how reaching younger generations. Even how we think about evangelism, it's going to we think about evangelism, it's going to we think about evangelism, it's going to have to be more questionoriented have to be more questionoriented have to be more questionoriented at least from the start than it is just at least from the start than it is just at least from the start than it is just giving answers. This episode is brought giving answers. This episode is brought giving answers. This episode is brought to you by Glue. So ministry leaders, you to you by Glue. So ministry leaders, you to you by Glue. So ministry leaders, you know, you're called to serve to connect know, you're called to serve to connect know, you're called to serve to connect and to change the world. But doing that and to change the world. But doing that and to change the world. But doing that often means fighting technology that often means fighting technology that often means fighting technology that wasn't designed for your mission. And wasn't designed for your mission. And wasn't designed for your mission. And that's why Glue is here to build a that's why Glue is here to build a that's why Glue is here to build a trusted technology platform that serves trusted technology platform that serves trusted technology platform that serves the faith ecosystem. So Glue is the faith ecosystem. So Glue is the faith ecosystem. So Glue is transforming how you lead by providing a transforming how you lead by providing a transforming how you lead by providing a complete platform of values aligned complete platform of values aligned complete platform of values aligned tools and technology that help churches tools and technology that help churches tools and technology that help churches understand and connect with congregants understand and connect with congregants understand and connect with congregants reach new people and help engage them in reach new people and help engage them in reach new people and help engage them in compelling ways. So with solutions like compelling ways. So with solutions like compelling ways. So with solutions like glue workspace where ministry leaders glue workspace where ministry leaders glue workspace where ministry leaders get work done and partners like igniter get work done and partners like igniter get work done and partners like igniter media, Bara visitor reach and outreach, media, Bara visitor reach and outreach, media, Bara visitor reach and outreach, glue is providing the digital backbone glue is providing the digital backbone glue is providing the digital backbone for the faith ecosystem, equipping your

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arttoofleershipacademy.com. arttoofleershipacademy.com. Just a few clicks and you'll be in. Look Just a few clicks and you'll be in. Look Just a few clicks and you'll be in. Look forward to seeing you inside. So I I forward to seeing you inside. So I I forward to seeing you inside. So I I take it you weren't buddy buddy with take it you weren't buddy buddy with take it you weren't buddy buddy with Ducker. There was a a generational Ducker. There was a a generational Ducker. There was a a generational overlap there as well. [laughter] So you overlap there as well. [laughter] So you overlap there as well. [laughter] So you might say I I have no idea. But I'm I'm might say I I have no idea. But I'm I'm might say I I have no idea. But I'm I'm [clears throat] curious even from a you [clears throat] curious even from a you [clears throat] curious even from a you know reasonable speculative standpoint. know reasonable speculative standpoint. know reasonable speculative standpoint. What do you think Ducker saw several What do you think Ducker saw several What do you think Ducker saw several decades ago when he wrote that or when decades ago when he wrote that or when decades ago when he wrote that or when he flagged that? What do you think he he flagged that? What do you think he he flagged that? What do you think he was sensing? was sensing? was sensing? >> There's another story with Ducker that >> There's another story with Ducker that >> There's another story with Ducker that was fascinating when people asked him so was fascinating when people asked him so was fascinating when people asked him so what is your job? He said, "I'm hired I what is your job? He said, "I'm hired I what is your job? He said, "I'm hired I was hired to ask dumb questions." And was hired to ask dumb questions." And was hired to ask dumb questions." And people went, "Haha." And they laughed people went, "Haha." And they laughed people went, "Haha." And they laughed like we just did. And he said, "No, I'm like we just did. And he said, "No, I'm like we just did. And he said, "No, I'm serious. I I'm hired to ask dumb serious. I I'm hired to ask dumb serious. I I'm hired to ask dumb questions." And they pressed him. What? questions." And they pressed him. What? questions." And they pressed him. What? What do you mean? He said, "I'm going to What do you mean? He said, "I'm going to What do you mean? He said, "I'm going to ask the question that seems so obvious ask the question that seems so obvious ask the question that seems so obvious you're going to think I'm crazy until I you're going to think I'm crazy until I you're going to think I'm crazy until I ask you to answer it and you go, hm, ask you to answer it and you go, hm, ask you to answer it and you go, hm, I've never thought about that. I don't I've never thought about that. I don't I've never thought about that. I don't know." And so he's he was constantly know." And so he's he was constantly know." And so he's he was constantly pushing on assumptions. And I I found pushing on assumptions. And I I found pushing on assumptions. And I I found that to be fascinating. Here's this that to be fascinating. Here's this that to be fascinating. Here's this brilliant guy, you know, this the the brilliant guy, you know, this the the brilliant guy, you know, this the the guru, the the the uh the founder of the guru, the the the uh the founder of the guru, the the the uh the founder of the organizational leadership movement, organizational leadership movement, organizational leadership movement, >> and he says, "I'm hired to ask dumb >> and he says, "I'm hired to ask dumb >> and he says, "I'm hired to ask dumb questions." I think he was so questions." I think he was so questions." I think he was so comfortable and had enough courage and comfortable and had enough courage and comfortable and had enough courage and his own identity to not be wrapped up in his own identity to not be wrapped up in his own identity to not be wrapped up in I need to be seen as the as the expert I need to be seen as the as the expert I need to be seen as the as the expert answer giver. I think that's why he answer giver. I think that's why he answer giver. I think that's why he stood out. He asked the questions no one stood out. He asked the questions no one stood out. He asked the questions no one else was asking.

else was asking. else was asking. >> Interesting. So I've I've I'm I'm an >> Interesting. So I've I've I'm I'm an >> Interesting. So I've I've I'm I'm an amateur student of the art of the amateur student of the art of the amateur student of the art of the interview. I say amateur because I've interview. I say amateur because I've interview. I say amateur because I've done some research but not enough for done some research but not enough for done some research but not enough for sure. And there's a couple of schools. sure. And there's a couple of schools. sure. And there's a couple of schools. One is you know one is definitely One is you know one is definitely One is you know one is definitely journalism question asking. You know JR journalism question asking. You know JR journalism question asking. You know JR is it true that you knew the secret is it true that you knew the secret is it true that you knew the secret before the you know like that's not a before the you know like that's not a before the you know like that's not a question that's an accusation. Okay. So question that's an accusation. Okay. So question that's an accusation. Okay. So let's A lot of people play that game. I let's A lot of people play that game. I let's A lot of people play that game. I don't I don't want to play that game. don't I don't want to play that game. don't I don't want to play that game. There's another school of thought though There's another school of thought though There's another school of thought though that says you have to be so incredibly that says you have to be so incredibly that says you have to be so incredibly well researched. You have to be the well researched. You have to be the well researched. You have to be the expert and you show off your expert and you show off your expert and you show off your intelligence by the questions you're intelligence by the questions you're intelligence by the questions you're asking. Right now, you wrote a great asking. Right now, you wrote a great asking. Right now, you wrote a great book. I'm going to highly recommend it. book. I'm going to highly recommend it. book. I'm going to highly recommend it. No offense to you. This is true of James No offense to you. This is true of James No offense to you. This is true of James Clear, another podcast alumnist. 99.9% Clear, another podcast alumnist. 99.9% Clear, another podcast alumnist. 99.9% of planet Earth has never read Atomic of planet Earth has never read Atomic of planet Earth has never read Atomic Habits. Habits. Habits. >> They haven't read The Art of Asking >> They haven't read The Art of Asking >> They haven't read The Art of Asking Better Questions. So, part of me is Better Questions. So, part of me is Better Questions. So, part of me is like, yeah, that's just a bad idea, even like, yeah, that's just a bad idea, even like, yeah, that's just a bad idea, even if you're talking to James Clear, if you're talking to James Clear, if you're talking to James Clear, because half or threequarters of my because half or threequarters of my because half or threequarters of my audience probably hasn't read his book. audience probably hasn't read his book. audience probably hasn't read his book. The other approach is what I call the The other approach is what I call the The other approach is what I call the Larry King approach because I've I've Larry King approach because I've I've Larry King approach because I've I've listened to Larry King on interviewing listened to Larry King on interviewing listened to Larry King on interviewing and he didn't do a lot of prep. I do and he didn't do a lot of prep. I do and he didn't do a lot of prep. I do prep, but he didn't do a lot of prep.

prep, but he didn't do a lot of prep. prep, but he didn't do a lot of prep. And he's like, "No, I want to be dumb." And he's like, "No, I want to be dumb." And he's like, "No, I want to be dumb." He said, "I want to ask the question He said, "I want to ask the question He said, "I want to ask the question that the average person on Larry King that the average person on Larry King that the average person on Larry King Live, watching that at night on CNN back Live, watching that at night on CNN back Live, watching that at night on CNN back in the day, would want to ask because in the day, would want to ask because in the day, would want to ask because they barely know who Barack Obama is or, they barely know who Barack Obama is or, they barely know who Barack Obama is or, [laughter] you know, they don't know [laughter] you know, they don't know [laughter] you know, they don't know that he was an attorney beforehand." And that he was an attorney beforehand." And that he was an attorney beforehand." And so he's like, "I want to be dumb." And I so he's like, "I want to be dumb." And I so he's like, "I want to be dumb." And I think when I do this job well, I'm dumb. think when I do this job well, I'm dumb. think when I do this job well, I'm dumb. Do you want to talk about what dumb Do you want to talk about what dumb Do you want to talk about what dumb questions are and why they're so questions are and why they're so questions are and why they're so valuable or maybe also what the shadow valuable or maybe also what the shadow valuable or maybe also what the shadow side of trying to be the expert and how side of trying to be the expert and how side of trying to be the expert and how smart your questions are could be. smart your questions are could be. smart your questions are could be. >> Yes, absolutely. And you're hitting on >> Yes, absolutely. And you're hitting on >> Yes, absolutely. And you're hitting on something and and Larry King was one of something and and Larry King was one of something and and Larry King was one of those uh question mentors that I had. those uh question mentors that I had. those uh question mentors that I had. Didn't know him, but just would watch Didn't know him, but just would watch Didn't know him, but just would watch him. I'd print out, even in in high him. I'd print out, even in in high him. I'd print out, even in in high school, I would print out um the school, I would print out um the school, I would print out um the transcript, which CNN.com always had the transcript, which CNN.com always had the transcript, which CNN.com always had the next day, and I would just notice the next day, and I would just notice the next day, and I would just notice the questions that he would, you know, why questions that he would, you know, why questions that he would, you know, why did he lean in? Why did he lean back? did he lean in? Why did he lean back? did he lean in? Why did he lean back? Why was he smiling? Why was he not? And Why was he smiling? Why was he not? And Why was he smiling? Why was he not? And even his body language often told us the even his body language often told us the even his body language often told us the kind of questions that he was asking. Um kind of questions that he was asking. Um kind of questions that he was asking. Um so I I totally agree with you on that. I so I I totally agree with you on that. I so I I totally agree with you on that. I do think that because questions are so do think that because questions are so do think that because questions are so powerful, we always have to ask powerful, we always have to ask powerful, we always have to ask ourselves, what is our motive? What is ourselves, what is our motive? What is ourselves, what is our motive? What is my motive in wanting to ask this? Is it my motive in wanting to ask this? Is it my motive in wanting to ask this? Is it to look brilliant or funny or to look brilliant or funny or to look brilliant or funny or intelligent? Am I trying to put someone intelligent? Am I trying to put someone intelligent? Am I trying to put someone in their place? Am I trying to ask a in their place? Am I trying to ask a in their place? Am I trying to ask a zinger kind of a gotcha question? Or am zinger kind of a gotcha question? Or am zinger kind of a gotcha question? Or am I really trying to learn? Am I trying to I really trying to learn? Am I trying to I really trying to learn? Am I trying to ask? Am I trying to care? I think ask? Am I trying to care? I think ask? Am I trying to care? I think questions with the right motive are an

questions with the right motive are an questions with the right motive are an extension and expression of hospitality. extension and expression of hospitality. extension and expression of hospitality. And of course, the word hospital in the And of course, the word hospital in the And of course, the word hospital in the word hospitality that I can actually ask word hospitality that I can actually ask word hospitality that I can actually ask questions that bring healing. In fact, I questions that bring healing. In fact, I questions that bring healing. In fact, I think of Jesus's questions. Some of them think of Jesus's questions. Some of them think of Jesus's questions. Some of them were so personal they drew blood, but were so personal they drew blood, but were so personal they drew blood, but not with a sword, but with a scalpel. not with a sword, but with a scalpel. not with a sword, but with a scalpel. And that scalpel of a surgeon scalpel of And that scalpel of a surgeon scalpel of And that scalpel of a surgeon scalpel of cutting open. Yes, it hurts. There's cutting open. Yes, it hurts. There's cutting open. Yes, it hurts. There's pain, there's blood, but it the intent pain, there's blood, but it the intent pain, there's blood, but it the intent is to heal. Not always, but I think a is to heal. Not always, but I think a is to heal. Not always, but I think a lot of Jesus's questions brought about lot of Jesus's questions brought about lot of Jesus's questions brought about healing and redemption. And so, I think healing and redemption. And so, I think healing and redemption. And so, I think if we can be the kinds of people that if we can be the kinds of people that if we can be the kinds of people that see questions as hospitality, and see questions as hospitality, and see questions as hospitality, and sometimes that means being dumb, right? sometimes that means being dumb, right? sometimes that means being dumb, right? we we elevate the guest over ourselves we we elevate the guest over ourselves we we elevate the guest over ourselves which means that we take the posture of which means that we take the posture of which means that we take the posture of a servant even as we ask the question to a servant even as we ask the question to a servant even as we ask the question to other people. So yeah, I think you're other people. So yeah, I think you're other people. So yeah, I think you're with I think you're right on being dumb, with I think you're right on being dumb, with I think you're right on being dumb, but it requires a ton of courage and a but it requires a ton of courage and a but it requires a ton of courage and a ton of inner work because the moment you ton of inner work because the moment you ton of inner work because the moment you ask a question, you're admitting I don't ask a question, you're admitting I don't ask a question, you're admitting I don't know the answer. And that's really hard know the answer. And that's really hard know the answer. And that's really hard for a lot of people in our culture for a lot of people in our culture for a lot of people in our culture today.

today. today. >> Yeah. I mean, I struggle with that >> Yeah. I mean, I struggle with that >> Yeah. I mean, I struggle with that sometimes, too. I'm a huge fan of Steven sometimes, too. I'm a huge fan of Steven sometimes, too. I'm a huge fan of Steven Bartlett. He's 33, one of the biggest Bartlett. He's 33, one of the biggest Bartlett. He's 33, one of the biggest podcasts in the world. One of the things podcasts in the world. One of the things podcasts in the world. One of the things I've noticed, I've been listening to him I've noticed, I've been listening to him I've noticed, I've been listening to him for a couple of years now, is he has for a couple of years now, is he has for a couple of years now, is he has gotten, and I say this with the highest gotten, and I say this with the highest gotten, and I say this with the highest respect, dumber in his question asking. respect, dumber in his question asking. respect, dumber in his question asking. So, if there as his podcast has grown, So, if there as his podcast has grown, So, if there as his podcast has grown, and it's like hockey stick growth, he and it's like hockey stick growth, he and it's like hockey stick growth, he has gotten better. If there's a has gotten better. If there's a has gotten better. If there's a technical term, he'll just interrupt the technical term, he'll just interrupt the technical term, he'll just interrupt the guest and go, "What does that mean?" guest and go, "What does that mean?" guest and go, "What does that mean?" >> And he probably knows half the time or >> And he probably knows half the time or >> And he probably knows half the time or threequarters of the time. But, you threequarters of the time. But, you threequarters of the time. But, you know, I I wonder, you know, if he's know, I I wonder, you know, if he's know, I I wonder, you know, if he's asking on behalf of his audience, asking on behalf of his audience, asking on behalf of his audience, because what I tried to do, it's not my because what I tried to do, it's not my because what I tried to do, it's not my I have a very smart audience, you know, I have a very smart audience, you know, I have a very smart audience, you know, like they're great, but but not like they're great, but but not like they're great, but but not everybody knows everything. And so, you everybody knows everything. And so, you everybody knows everything. And so, you know, if I'm willing to be dumb, if I'm know, if I'm willing to be dumb, if I'm know, if I'm willing to be dumb, if I'm willing to ask the question that willing to ask the question that willing to ask the question that everybody else um is afraid to ask, I everybody else um is afraid to ask, I everybody else um is afraid to ask, I think it was a Jim Collins story. Maybe think it was a Jim Collins story. Maybe think it was a Jim Collins story. Maybe not. But Jim was, you know, or whoever not. But Jim was, you know, or whoever not. But Jim was, you know, or whoever this was was executive consultant, this was was executive consultant, this was was executive consultant, highly paid. Got into a boardroom to and highly paid. Got into a boardroom to and highly paid. Got into a boardroom to and maybe it was less muin. It was Jim maybe it was less muin. It was Jim maybe it was less muin. It was Jim Collins or Les Muin or somebody somebody Collins or Les Muin or somebody somebody Collins or Les Muin or somebody somebody in the comments will correct me. So goes in the comments will correct me. So goes in the comments will correct me. So goes into this boardroom and like there's into this boardroom and like there's into this boardroom and like there's this fancy, you know, PowerPoint that's this fancy, you know, PowerPoint that's this fancy, you know, PowerPoint that's presented with the the quarterly plan presented with the the quarterly plan presented with the the quarterly plan and everything. He goes, "Excuse me, I I and everything. He goes, "Excuse me, I I and everything. He goes, "Excuse me, I I don't really understand it." Well, you don't really understand it." Well, you don't really understand it." Well, you know, as you see, da da da. No, I'm know, as you see, da da da. No, I'm know, as you see, da da da. No, I'm still not getting it. No, no, no, no.

still not getting it. No, no, no, no. still not getting it. No, no, no, no. Seven questions in, everyone in the room Seven questions in, everyone in the room Seven questions in, everyone in the room is like, "Yeah, we have no idea what is like, "Yeah, we have no idea what is like, "Yeah, we have no idea what this means [laughter] either." It was a this means [laughter] either." It was a this means [laughter] either." It was a whole bunch of just jumbled garb, you whole bunch of just jumbled garb, you whole bunch of just jumbled garb, you know, garbled jumbo that that they threw know, garbled jumbo that that they threw know, garbled jumbo that that they threw together on a on a PowerPoint slide. And together on a on a PowerPoint slide. And together on a on a PowerPoint slide. And I think often, you know, questions are a I think often, you know, questions are a I think often, you know, questions are a gateway to real understanding or through gateway to real understanding or through gateway to real understanding or through cutting through the noise. I don't know. cutting through the noise. I don't know. cutting through the noise. I don't know. I'm kind of rambling here, so go rescue I'm kind of rambling here, so go rescue I'm kind of rambling here, so go rescue me with this. me with this. me with this. >> No, no, you there are so many obstacles >> No, no, you there are so many obstacles >> No, no, you there are so many obstacles and one of them is the trap of and one of them is the trap of and one of them is the trap of expertise. It's thinking we already expertise. It's thinking we already expertise. It's thinking we already know, so why would we ask any questions? know, so why would we ask any questions? know, so why would we ask any questions? But it's also on the other side of the But it's also on the other side of the But it's also on the other side of the fear of looking dumb, the fear of fear of looking dumb, the fear of fear of looking dumb, the fear of awkward interactions. What if I ask a awkward interactions. What if I ask a awkward interactions. What if I ask a question and people look at me and say, question and people look at me and say, question and people look at me and say, "What are you crazy? What's wrong with "What are you crazy? What's wrong with "What are you crazy? What's wrong with you? You should know that by now." you? You should know that by now." you? You should know that by now." >> So, there are lots of assumptions and >> So, there are lots of assumptions and >> So, there are lots of assumptions and you've just hit on a few of those that you've just hit on a few of those that you've just hit on a few of those that keep us culturally from asking more keep us culturally from asking more keep us culturally from asking more questions. And so, you know, I spent questions. And so, you know, I spent questions. And so, you know, I spent some time just naming those obstacles in some time just naming those obstacles in some time just naming those obstacles in the beginning of the book because if you the beginning of the book because if you the beginning of the book because if you know, naming things as a way of taming know, naming things as a way of taming know, naming things as a way of taming things, naming things as a way of things, naming things as a way of things, naming things as a way of changing things, we just have to name changing things, we just have to name changing things, we just have to name what those obstacles are up front um what those obstacles are up front um what those obstacles are up front um before we can get there. So, that before we can get there. So, that before we can get there. So, that doesn't surprise me. And I I bet that doesn't surprise me. And I I bet that doesn't surprise me. And I I bet that happens to a lot of consultants who are happens to a lot of consultants who are happens to a lot of consultants who are secure in themselves to say, "Doesn't secure in themselves to say, "Doesn't secure in themselves to say, "Doesn't make any sense. Can you explain that to make any sense. Can you explain that to make any sense. Can you explain that to me?"

me?" me?" >> Yeah, I don't get it. Um, and because no >> Yeah, I don't get it. Um, and because no >> Yeah, I don't get it. Um, and because no one else in the room has been uh one else in the room has been uh one else in the room has been uh courageous enough to ask it, it takes an courageous enough to ask it, it takes an courageous enough to ask it, it takes an outsider sometimes to come in. It's outsider sometimes to come in. It's outsider sometimes to come in. It's almost the um what's what's the fable of almost the um what's what's the fable of almost the um what's what's the fable of the the kid that that says the king has the the kid that that says the king has the the kid that that says the king has no clothes on. I mean, it's the no clothes on. I mean, it's the no clothes on. I mean, it's the emperor's new emperor's new emperor's new clothes. clothes. clothes. >> Just being able to just name, hey, I I >> Just being able to just name, hey, I I >> Just being able to just name, hey, I I just don't get it. And everyone else is just don't get it. And everyone else is just don't get it. And everyone else is saying, well, if I can raise my hand and saying, well, if I can raise my hand and saying, well, if I can raise my hand and say, yeah, the emperor's naked. say, yeah, the emperor's naked. say, yeah, the emperor's naked. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Uhhuh. What are some other obstacles >> Uhhuh. What are some other obstacles >> Uhhuh. What are some other obstacles that we would have in within ourselves that we would have in within ourselves that we would have in within ourselves to asking questions? to asking questions? to asking questions? >> Yeah. Well, I mentioned already the just >> Yeah. Well, I mentioned already the just >> Yeah. Well, I mentioned already the just living in an attention-seeking age living in an attention-seeking age living in an attention-seeking age number one. Um, but we live in question number one. Um, but we live in question number one. Um, but we live in question deserts because it's not modeled well. deserts because it's not modeled well. deserts because it's not modeled well. It's also not appreciated and sometimes It's also not appreciated and sometimes It's also not appreciated and sometimes we're penalized. There are a lot of we're penalized. There are a lot of we're penalized. There are a lot of boardrooms where it's penalized to ask boardrooms where it's penalized to ask boardrooms where it's penalized to ask questions. In our efficient uh questions. In our efficient uh questions. In our efficient uh efficiency oriented world, we celebrate efficiency oriented world, we celebrate efficiency oriented world, we celebrate efficiency and progress. Questions can efficiency and progress. Questions can efficiency and progress. Questions can be perceived as inefficient. And so, you be perceived as inefficient. And so, you be perceived as inefficient. And so, you know, why are you slowing things down?

know, why are you slowing things down? know, why are you slowing things down? We were making so much progress here. Um We were making so much progress here. Um We were making so much progress here. Um and so that's that's uh that's one that and so that's that's uh that's one that and so that's that's uh that's one that can be tough to push up against. But I can be tough to push up against. But I can be tough to push up against. But I just think there's a general lack of just think there's a general lack of just think there's a general lack of curiosity. Sometimes we say, "I don't curiosity. Sometimes we say, "I don't curiosity. Sometimes we say, "I don't really care what other people think." Um really care what other people think." Um really care what other people think." Um and I the last one I I think there's a and I the last one I I think there's a and I the last one I I think there's a fear there's a fear of awkwardness. fear there's a fear of awkwardness. fear there's a fear of awkwardness. awkwardness awkwardness awkwardness of of of what the question might reveal, what the question might reveal, what the question might reveal, especially the questions we might ask of especially the questions we might ask of especially the questions we might ask of God or ourselves. There are sometimes I God or ourselves. There are sometimes I God or ourselves. There are sometimes I don't ask myself a question because I'm don't ask myself a question because I'm don't ask myself a question because I'm not sure I want to hear the answer not sure I want to hear the answer not sure I want to hear the answer and sometimes with other people, but I and sometimes with other people, but I and sometimes with other people, but I also, you and I have enough emotional also, you and I have enough emotional also, you and I have enough emotional intelligence to know when questions intelligence to know when questions intelligence to know when questions might be out of bounds, might be so might be out of bounds, might be so might be out of bounds, might be so awkward. But when we're truly honest awkward. But when we're truly honest awkward. But when we're truly honest with ourselves, the inner work that's with ourselves, the inner work that's with ourselves, the inner work that's required required required takes a ton of courage to ask those takes a ton of courage to ask those takes a ton of courage to ask those questions that the answer may scare us. questions that the answer may scare us. questions that the answer may scare us. And so often times we just push those And so often times we just push those And so often times we just push those away. But I think that's the difference away. But I think that's the difference away. But I think that's the difference in wisdom, right? I mean, the wisdom in wisdom, right? I mean, the wisdom in wisdom, right? I mean, the wisdom literature that exists in the Bible, literature that exists in the Bible, literature that exists in the Bible, that's where the most questions are. The that's where the most questions are. The that's where the most questions are. The most of the questions of the New most of the questions of the New most of the questions of the New Testament are found there. And there's a Testament are found there. And there's a Testament are found there. And there's a connection between wisdom and questions.

connection between wisdom and questions. connection between wisdom and questions. >> Yeah. I think you have this in the book >> Yeah. I think you have this in the book >> Yeah. I think you have this in the book and and if not we can move on but there and and if not we can move on but there and and if not we can move on but there was like Jesus only answered a very was like Jesus only answered a very was like Jesus only answered a very small number of questions but he asked small number of questions but he asked small number of questions but he asked like lots. Do do you know the math on like lots. Do do you know the math on like lots. Do do you know the math on that offh hand? that offh hand? that offh hand? >> Yeah the Jesus asked over 300 questions. >> Yeah the Jesus asked over 300 questions. >> Yeah the Jesus asked over 300 questions. He was asked over 180 and he only He was asked over 180 and he only He was asked over 180 and he only directly answered five of them. He semi directly answered five of them. He semi directly answered five of them. He semi >> 180 to 5 and 30 and some odd to five. >> 180 to 5 and 30 and some odd to five. >> 180 to 5 and 30 and some odd to five. >> Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes people throw >> Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes people throw >> Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes people throw out 307, 325. out 307, 325. out 307, 325. You can't tell on going between, you You can't tell on going between, you You can't tell on going between, you know, Hebrew and Greek and English. know, Hebrew and Greek and English. know, Hebrew and Greek and English. Sometimes in our translation, some will Sometimes in our translation, some will Sometimes in our translation, some will be an exclamation point, some will be a be an exclamation point, some will be a be an exclamation point, some will be a question mark. It's often hard to tell question mark. It's often hard to tell question mark. It's often hard to tell the cultural. And for those who don't the cultural. And for those who don't the cultural. And for those who don't know, that wasn't there in the original know, that wasn't there in the original know, that wasn't there in the original Greek. There were no punctuation in the Greek. There were no punctuation in the Greek. There were no punctuation in the original [laughter] Greek. original [laughter] Greek. original [laughter] Greek. >> We've added, >> We've added, >> We've added, >> but what we can say is confidently there >> but what we can say is confidently there >> but what we can say is confidently there are more than 300 that Jesus asks. He's are more than 300 that Jesus asks. He's are more than 300 that Jesus asks. He's asked over 180. Directly answers five. asked over 180. Directly answers five. asked over 180. Directly answers five. Indirectly, it seems he he only answers Indirectly, it seems he he only answers Indirectly, it seems he he only answers four. The rest he deflects, ignores, four. The rest he deflects, ignores, four. The rest he deflects, ignores, tells the story. Um and and fascinating.

tells the story. Um and and fascinating. tells the story. Um and and fascinating. You would think the way, the truth, and You would think the way, the truth, and You would think the way, the truth, and the life. People are asking questions. the life. People are asking questions. the life. People are asking questions. This is my chance to give answers. And a This is my chance to give answers. And a This is my chance to give answers. And a lot of it was rabbitical training um of lot of it was rabbitical training um of lot of it was rabbitical training um of someone asks a question, you ask a someone asks a question, you ask a someone asks a question, you ask a question back. But wow, I I am uh that question back. But wow, I I am uh that question back. But wow, I I am uh that blew my mind. And the brilliance of blew my mind. And the brilliance of blew my mind. And the brilliance of Jesus's questions. We study his Jesus's questions. We study his Jesus's questions. We study his miracles. We study his parables. We miracles. We study his parables. We miracles. We study his parables. We study his healings. We study his study his healings. We study his study his healings. We study his [clears throat] teachings. We don't [clears throat] teachings. We don't [clears throat] teachings. We don't study his questions. And yet that's study his questions. And yet that's study his questions. And yet that's where a bulk the bulk of life change where a bulk the bulk of life change where a bulk the bulk of life change happened when it was preceded by one of happened when it was preceded by one of happened when it was preceded by one of his questions. That's what set me on his questions. That's what set me on his questions. That's what set me on fire. fire. fire. >> Everything from who do you say I am >> Everything from who do you say I am >> Everything from who do you say I am which we will preach, right? But there which we will preach, right? But there which we will preach, right? But there were so many other questions, you know, were so many other questions, you know, were so many other questions, you know, that that Jesus asked. I'm I'm curious that that Jesus asked. I'm I'm curious that that Jesus asked. I'm I'm curious like from a an analysis standpoint. like from a an analysis standpoint. like from a an analysis standpoint. When Jesus asks a question, if I ask a When Jesus asks a question, if I ask a When Jesus asks a question, if I ask a good question, if you ask a good good question, if you ask a good good question, if you ask a good question, what does that actually do in question, what does that actually do in question, what does that actually do in terms of learning? Like what does that terms of learning? Like what does that terms of learning? Like what does that >> what does that shift or what does it >> what does that shift or what does it >> what does that shift or what does it accomplish?

accomplish? accomplish? >> Yeah. One of the most fascinating things >> Yeah. One of the most fascinating things >> Yeah. One of the most fascinating things that I found in my research were that I found in my research were that I found in my research were neuroscientists of studying the brain neuroscientists of studying the brain neuroscientists of studying the brain and brain scans when people were given and brain scans when people were given and brain scans when people were given answers versus when they were asked answers versus when they were asked answers versus when they were asked questions. questions. questions. >> When they were given answers, their >> When they were given answers, their >> When they were given answers, their brain lit up. When they were asked brain lit up. When they were asked brain lit up. When they were asked questions, their brains lit up like questions, their brains lit up like questions, their brains lit up like fireworks were going off. I mean, it fireworks were going off. I mean, it fireworks were going off. I mean, it just totally lit up the whole brain. just totally lit up the whole brain. just totally lit up the whole brain. And one of the ways that researchers And one of the ways that researchers And one of the ways that researchers describe what happens when you ask describe what happens when you ask describe what happens when you ask someone a question is they said you can someone a question is they said you can someone a question is they said you can temporarily temporarily temporarily hijack someone's brain that the brain is hijack someone's brain that the brain is hijack someone's brain that the brain is wired automatically to say how would I wired automatically to say how would I wired automatically to say how would I answer that no wonder Jesus says so many answer that no wonder Jesus says so many answer that no wonder Jesus says so many times what about you what do you think times what about you what do you think times what about you what do you think right what do you think is a very common right what do you think is a very common right what do you think is a very common question Jesus asks and what what do I question Jesus asks and what what do I question Jesus asks and what what do I think right so it immediately makes us think right so it immediately makes us think right so it immediately makes us listeners participants listeners participants listeners participants to want to respond. And so I mean just to want to respond. And so I mean just to want to respond. And so I mean just to give an example of this in terms of to give an example of this in terms of to give an example of this in terms of hijacking someone's brain um you know hijacking someone's brain um you know hijacking someone's brain um you know very temporarily but you can do this is very temporarily but you can do this is very temporarily but you can do this is if I were to ask your listeners uh what if I were to ask your listeners uh what if I were to ask your listeners uh what color are your shoes right now?

color are your shoes right now? color are your shoes right now? Everybody they couldn't help it. They Everybody they couldn't help it. They Everybody they couldn't help it. They thought what are the color of my shoes? thought what are the color of my shoes? thought what are the color of my shoes? Some of them maybe even had to look down Some of them maybe even had to look down Some of them maybe even had to look down and just did that [laughter] and just did that [laughter] and just did that [laughter] >> right because I just hijacked Carrie's >> right because I just hijacked Carrie's >> right because I just hijacked Carrie's brain. I just hijacked the listener's brain. I just hijacked the listener's brain. I just hijacked the listener's brain. Um because that is how our brains brain. Um because that is how our brains brain. Um because that is how our brains have been wired. Rather than me just have been wired. Rather than me just have been wired. Rather than me just telling you what the color of your shoes telling you what the color of your shoes telling you what the color of your shoes are, which would light your brain up, are, which would light your brain up, are, which would light your brain up, asking you, it sends off this whole asking you, it sends off this whole asking you, it sends off this whole fireworks effect throughout your brain. fireworks effect throughout your brain. fireworks effect throughout your brain. And that idea, this is what Neil Postman And that idea, this is what Neil Postman And that idea, this is what Neil Postman says, the most important thing that we says, the most important thing that we says, the most important thing that we could teach kids in school how to ask could teach kids in school how to ask could teach kids in school how to ask better questions. We don't teach them. better questions. We don't teach them. better questions. We don't teach them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And he said the best teachers are those >> And he said the best teachers are those >> And he said the best teachers are those that are constantly not just asking that are constantly not just asking that are constantly not just asking students questions but giving permission students questions but giving permission students questions but giving permission in a classroom where students can ask in a classroom where students can ask in a classroom where students can ask questions of teachers and students can questions of teachers and students can questions of teachers and students can ask questions of other students. That's ask questions of other students. That's ask questions of other students. That's the next level of education. the next level of education. the next level of education. >> You know, it makes me think about >> You know, it makes me think about >> You know, it makes me think about preaching too because we we love to tell preaching too because we we love to tell preaching too because we we love to tell people what to think. This is exactly people what to think. This is exactly people what to think. This is exactly what you should think on this issue. you what you should think on this issue. you what you should think on this issue. you know, cuz these guys have it wrong and know, cuz these guys have it wrong and know, cuz these guys have it wrong and these guys have it wrong, but I've got these guys have it wrong, but I've got these guys have it wrong, but I've got it right and here it is. Here's the it right and here it is. Here's the it right and here it is. Here's the truth served up for you. Easy to go. How truth served up for you. Easy to go. How truth served up for you. Easy to go. How would you would you would you how would you weave better question how would you weave better question how would you weave better question asking into your public communication, asking into your public communication, asking into your public communication, into your preaching, for example?

into your preaching, for example? into your preaching, for example? >> Yeah. I'll back up a little bit here and >> Yeah. I'll back up a little bit here and >> Yeah. I'll back up a little bit here and say one of the things I did as I was say one of the things I did as I was say one of the things I did as I was studying Jesus's questions was the the studying Jesus's questions was the the studying Jesus's questions was the the pedagogy of Jesus, too. How did Jesus pedagogy of Jesus, too. How did Jesus pedagogy of Jesus, too. How did Jesus teach? And I realized he took his teach? And I realized he took his teach? And I realized he took his listeners on three different field listeners on three different field listeners on three different field trips. He took them on physical field trips. He took them on physical field trips. He took them on physical field trips where he, you know, parapotetic, trips where he, you know, parapotetic, trips where he, you know, parapotetic, you know, he's walking around. Look at you know, he's walking around. Look at you know, he's walking around. Look at the birds of the air. Look at the liies the birds of the air. Look at the liies the birds of the air. Look at the liies of the field. Look at the woman putting of the field. Look at the woman putting of the field. Look at the woman putting two mites in the temple treasury and two mites in the temple treasury and two mites in the temple treasury and turns. turns. turns. >> Yeah. That wasn't that was like we think >> Yeah. That wasn't that was like we think >> Yeah. That wasn't that was like we think of it as like academic, but he was like, of it as like academic, but he was like, of it as like academic, but he was like, "See the birds like they're right "See the birds like they're right "See the birds like they're right there." Right. And the widow, she's there." Right. And the widow, she's there." Right. And the widow, she's right there. right there. right there. >> Yes. Almost like as if he's pointing or >> Yes. Almost like as if he's pointing or >> Yes. Almost like as if he's pointing or nodding or gesturing. So literal field nodding or gesturing. So literal field nodding or gesturing. So literal field trips number one. Number two, emotional trips number one. Number two, emotional trips number one. Number two, emotional field trips using stories and parables. field trips using stories and parables. field trips using stories and parables. Right? And then of course mental field Right? And then of course mental field Right? And then of course mental field trips by employing questions to provoke trips by employing questions to provoke trips by employing questions to provoke thought and participation. And so what thought and participation. And so what thought and participation. And so what do we do oftentimes in preaching? We sit do we do oftentimes in preaching? We sit do we do oftentimes in preaching? We sit people in the same room. We have them people in the same room. We have them people in the same room. We have them sit in a seat passively. We don't tell sit in a seat passively. We don't tell sit in a seat passively. We don't tell stories. We often just give abstract stories. We often just give abstract stories. We often just give abstract ideas. And instead of asking questions, ideas. And instead of asking questions, ideas. And instead of asking questions, we give information. And then we sit we give information. And then we sit we give information. And then we sit around and wonder why is no one around and wonder why is no one around and wonder why is no one changing? [laughter] Well, maybe we changing? [laughter] Well, maybe we changing? [laughter] Well, maybe we should try to teach like Jesus did. Now should try to teach like Jesus did. Now should try to teach like Jesus did. Now there of course we need answers. And there of course we need answers. And there of course we need answers. And Jesus didn't just use questions. I mean, Jesus didn't just use questions. I mean, Jesus didn't just use questions. I mean, he he gave he gave answers, of course, he he gave he gave answers, of course, he he gave he gave answers, of course, but that has shaped the way I think but that has shaped the way I think but that has shaped the way I think about preaching. I also think about about preaching. I also think about about preaching. I also think about Paul. I mean, look at the book of Paul. I mean, look at the book of Paul. I mean, look at the book of Romans, how he utilized questions. He Romans, how he utilized questions. He Romans, how he utilized questions. He was constantly asking these rhetorical was constantly asking these rhetorical was constantly asking these rhetorical questions as a way of setting it up. So, questions as a way of setting it up. So, questions as a way of setting it up. So, he'd say, "Should we sin so that grace he'd say, "Should we sin so that grace he'd say, "Should we sin so that grace shall abound even more?" Absolutely not.

shall abound even more?" Absolutely not. shall abound even more?" Absolutely not. And then he answers it. So, I think good And then he answers it. So, I think good And then he answers it. So, I think good preachers, Tim Keller did this really preachers, Tim Keller did this really preachers, Tim Keller did this really well. And I know you had Matt Smith on well. And I know you had Matt Smith on well. And I know you had Matt Smith on um to talk about Tim Keller uh recently. um to talk about Tim Keller uh recently. um to talk about Tim Keller uh recently. Tim would often ask a question and then Tim would often ask a question and then Tim would often ask a question and then he would let it hang in the air for a he would let it hang in the air for a he would let it hang in the air for a little bit because he was hijacking little bit because he was hijacking little bit because he was hijacking their brains. What do I think about their brains. What do I think about their brains. What do I think about this? And then he would give an answer this? And then he would give an answer this? And then he would give an answer to that. I think Paul did that to that. I think Paul did that to that. I think Paul did that beautifully in the book of Romans, many beautifully in the book of Romans, many beautifully in the book of Romans, many of his letters, but especially Romans of his letters, but especially Romans of his letters, but especially Romans and um for that rhetorical effect. So, I and um for that rhetorical effect. So, I and um for that rhetorical effect. So, I think I think that is a great tool as an think I think that is a great tool as an think I think that is a great tool as an opener. One of my favorite things when opener. One of my favorite things when opener. One of my favorite things when I'm preaching is just to ask one of I'm preaching is just to ask one of I'm preaching is just to ask one of those questions that's thoughtful, those questions that's thoughtful, those questions that's thoughtful, engaging, jolting, just grabs someone engaging, jolting, just grabs someone engaging, jolting, just grabs someone right around the neck and won't let go right around the neck and won't let go right around the neck and won't let go right from the start. Not, "Hi, good right from the start. Not, "Hi, good right from the start. Not, "Hi, good morning." I just launch into a question morning." I just launch into a question morning." I just launch into a question and then just put it boldly up on a and then just put it boldly up on a and then just put it boldly up on a slide on the screen. slide on the screen. slide on the screen. >> That's funny. Last time I preached, they >> That's funny. Last time I preached, they >> That's funny. Last time I preached, they did exactly that. I opened with a did exactly that. I opened with a did exactly that. I opened with a question. Interesting. question. Interesting. question. Interesting. >> Yeah. And because what does it do? It >> Yeah. And because what does it do? It >> Yeah. And because what does it do? It hijacks people and they're they're hijacks people and they're they're hijacks people and they're they're locked in and ready to go. And I think locked in and ready to go. And I think locked in and ready to go. And I think we can utilize that we can utilize that we can utilize that >> from listen to me >> from listen to me >> from listen to me >> to what did you bring to this like what >> to what did you bring to this like what >> to what did you bring to this like what what what is going on in your life? I am what what is going on in your life? I am what what is going on in your life? I am actually very interested in you actually very interested in you actually very interested in you >> and once you establish your set point >> and once you establish your set point >> and once you establish your set point we're going to go on a journey together we're going to go on a journey together we're going to go on a journey together and hopefully it's a little bit better and hopefully it's a little bit better and hopefully it's a little bit better at the end.

at the end. at the end. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Again it can depend also on the size of >> Again it can depend also on the size of >> Again it can depend also on the size of the congregation. this would be harder the congregation. this would be harder the congregation. this would be harder in a you know several thousand member in a you know several thousand member in a you know several thousand member church but for smaller churches the church but for smaller churches the church but for smaller churches the opportunity for some interaction and opportunity for some interaction and opportunity for some interaction and dialogue. I've seen church, smaller dialogue. I've seen church, smaller dialogue. I've seen church, smaller churches do this really well of leaving churches do this really well of leaving churches do this really well of leaving five or 10 minutes at the end and this five or 10 minutes at the end and this five or 10 minutes at the end and this can be risky in terms of open mic can be risky in terms of open mic can be risky in terms of open mic sometimes, but of saying where do you sometimes, but of saying where do you sometimes, but of saying where do you sense you've heard from the Holy Spirit sense you've heard from the Holy Spirit sense you've heard from the Holy Spirit and how might you respond to the and how might you respond to the and how might you respond to the teaching this morning? And it's led to teaching this morning? And it's led to teaching this morning? And it's led to some beautiful times. You could even do some beautiful times. You could even do some beautiful times. You could even do that with, you know, sort of some some that with, you know, sort of some some that with, you know, sort of some some pastors do that during the Sunday school pastors do that during the Sunday school pastors do that during the Sunday school hour of, hey, we're going to have a hour of, hey, we're going to have a hour of, hey, we're going to have a talkback time to just allow some time talkback time to just allow some time talkback time to just allow some time for conversation and questions. You can for conversation and questions. You can for conversation and questions. You can do that with small group questions. I do that with small group questions. I do that with small group questions. I think there are a lot of ways we can think there are a lot of ways we can think there are a lot of ways we can utilize that. Uh, I think pastors utilize that. Uh, I think pastors utilize that. Uh, I think pastors utilize it. I think we can take it to utilize it. I think we can take it to utilize it. I think we can take it to the next level or two as a way of the next level or two as a way of the next level or two as a way of engaging with our congregation. I've engaging with our congregation. I've engaging with our congregation. I've seen some pastors even switch it to say, seen some pastors even switch it to say, seen some pastors even switch it to say, "Hey, we're going to be preaching on "Hey, we're going to be preaching on "Hey, we're going to be preaching on this topic next week." So between now this topic next week." So between now this topic next week." So between now and Wednesday at noon, I want to and Wednesday at noon, I want to and Wednesday at noon, I want to encourage you to read the passage and encourage you to read the passage and encourage you to read the passage and submit any questions you have about the submit any questions you have about the submit any questions you have about the passage and for the pastor to go, "Huh, passage and for the pastor to go, "Huh, passage and for the pastor to go, "Huh, I never thought about that.

I never thought about that. I never thought about that. >> Maybe I need to address that." So it's >> Maybe I need to address that." So it's >> Maybe I need to address that." So it's actually asking them to participate actually asking them to participate actually asking them to participate before the sermon um by submitting their before the sermon um by submitting their before the sermon um by submitting their questions. questions. questions. >> One of the things uh I love about this >> One of the things uh I love about this >> One of the things uh I love about this podcast is a lot of the listenership is podcast is a lot of the listenership is podcast is a lot of the listenership is young. a lot of young leaders uh Gen Z young. a lot of young leaders uh Gen Z young. a lot of young leaders uh Gen Z younger millennials, millennials who are younger millennials, millennials who are younger millennials, millennials who are stepping into leadership or getting stepping into leadership or getting stepping into leadership or getting ready for it and my interaction with ready for it and my interaction with ready for it and my interaction with them is they are decent. A lot of them them is they are decent. A lot of them them is they are decent. A lot of them are decent at asking questions. are decent at asking questions. are decent at asking questions. If you had to give advice to the next If you had to give advice to the next If you had to give advice to the next generation of leaders about um the generation of leaders about um the generation of leaders about um the questions they should be asking, how to questions they should be asking, how to questions they should be asking, how to ask questions, where where would you ask questions, where where would you ask questions, where where would you start? What would you tell them? Yeah, start? What would you tell them? Yeah, start? What would you tell them? Yeah, the most important thing I would say in the most important thing I would say in the most important thing I would say in two words, be aware. two words, be aware. two words, be aware. >> I think the first thing we just have to >> I think the first thing we just have to >> I think the first thing we just have to be aware of several things when it comes be aware of several things when it comes be aware of several things when it comes to our questions like um to our questions like um to our questions like um just being aware how many questions am I just being aware how many questions am I just being aware how many questions am I asking? Am I asking questions first of asking? Am I asking questions first of asking? Am I asking questions first of all? If so, what were they? Were they all? If so, what were they? Were they all? If so, what were they? Were they thoughtless questions? Were they thoughtless questions? Were they thoughtless questions? Were they thoughtful? There there is a principle, thoughtful? There there is a principle, thoughtful? There there is a principle, a universal principle of question asking a universal principle of question asking a universal principle of question asking that goes like this. If I ask a generic that goes like this. If I ask a generic that goes like this. If I ask a generic unthoughtful question, I will often get unthoughtful question, I will often get unthoughtful question, I will often get a generic unthoughtful answer. How you a generic unthoughtful answer. How you a generic unthoughtful answer. How you doing? Fine. How was your day? Good. But doing? Fine. How was your day? Good. But doing? Fine. How was your day? Good. But if I can ask a thoughtful engaging if I can ask a thoughtful engaging if I can ask a thoughtful engaging question, more often than not, I will question, more often than not, I will question, more often than not, I will get a thoughtful engaging answer. It's get a thoughtful engaging answer. It's get a thoughtful engaging answer. It's as predictable as a communist election.

as predictable as a communist election. as predictable as a communist election. I mean, it is just so interesting when I mean, it is just so interesting when I mean, it is just so interesting when you are just more specific and more you are just more specific and more you are just more specific and more thoughtful how the conversation becomes thoughtful how the conversation becomes thoughtful how the conversation becomes richer. So, I would just encourage folks richer. So, I would just encourage folks richer. So, I would just encourage folks to think about being aware in in four to think about being aware in in four to think about being aware in in four areas. Number one is content, right? areas. Number one is content, right? areas. Number one is content, right? What am I asking? Number two is quality. What am I asking? Number two is quality. What am I asking? Number two is quality. Just because I asked it doesn't mean Just because I asked it doesn't mean Just because I asked it doesn't mean it's good. Three is frequency. How often it's good. Three is frequency. How often it's good. Three is frequency. How often am I asking questions? And then am I asking questions? And then am I asking questions? And then direction. Are the directional arrows direction. Are the directional arrows direction. Are the directional arrows pointing inward? They're about me or are pointing inward? They're about me or are pointing inward? They're about me or are they pointing outward toward other they pointing outward toward other they pointing outward toward other people? And I think just a quick people? And I think just a quick people? And I think just a quick evaluation of that, you know, content evaluation of that, you know, content evaluation of that, you know, content quality, frequency, and direction of my quality, frequency, and direction of my quality, frequency, and direction of my questions can really help of just that questions can really help of just that questions can really help of just that awareness. That's a great place to awareness. That's a great place to awareness. That's a great place to start. You can't change what you aren't start. You can't change what you aren't start. You can't change what you aren't aware of and what you can't name first. aware of and what you can't name first. aware of and what you can't name first. So that's what I'd encourage anybody, So that's what I'd encourage anybody, So that's what I'd encourage anybody, young or old, is just be aware. young or old, is just be aware. young or old, is just be aware. Can you give us uh a set of examples of Can you give us uh a set of examples of Can you give us uh a set of examples of some bad questions some bad questions some bad questions >> and then some better questions? Like >> and then some better questions? Like >> and then some better questions? Like questions that kind of go nowhere versus questions that kind of go nowhere versus questions that kind of go nowhere versus or get asked all the time that aren't or get asked all the time that aren't or get asked all the time that aren't particularly helpful versus questions particularly helpful versus questions particularly helpful versus questions that are actually helpful.

that are actually helpful. that are actually helpful. >> Let's name the obvious ones, the ones >> Let's name the obvious ones, the ones >> Let's name the obvious ones, the ones that are are hurtful, vindictive, you that are are hurtful, vindictive, you that are are hurtful, vindictive, you know, who are you? Who do you think you know, who are you? Who do you think you know, who are you? Who do you think you are? What's wrong with you? And there are? What's wrong with you? And there are? What's wrong with you? And there are a lot of counselor's couches full of are a lot of counselor's couches full of are a lot of counselor's couches full of people who years ago had a loved one ask people who years ago had a loved one ask people who years ago had a loved one ask them either once or repeatedly a them either once or repeatedly a them either once or repeatedly a question that was incredibly hurtful. question that was incredibly hurtful. question that was incredibly hurtful. So, let's just get that out of the way. So, let's just get that out of the way. So, let's just get that out of the way. That let's let's avoid those at all That let's let's avoid those at all That let's let's avoid those at all costs. But I think that we can ask what costs. But I think that we can ask what costs. But I think that we can ask what I'll call um benevolent but useless I'll call um benevolent but useless I'll call um benevolent but useless questions. Uh they would be like, questions. Uh they would be like, questions. Uh they would be like, "What's up? How are you? How are you "What's up? How are you? How are you "What's up? How are you? How are you doing?" And um now I know sometimes doing?" And um now I know sometimes doing?" And um now I know sometimes those are just greetings. Like when you those are just greetings. Like when you those are just greetings. Like when you say two dudes pass each other, what's say two dudes pass each other, what's say two dudes pass each other, what's up? You know, that's kind of a howdy. up? You know, that's kind of a howdy. up? You know, that's kind of a howdy. >> Yeah. Yeah. But if we can go to the next >> Yeah. Yeah. But if we can go to the next >> Yeah. Yeah. But if we can go to the next level instead of how's your day, level instead of how's your day, level instead of how's your day, >> what if we just tweaked it just a little >> what if we just tweaked it just a little >> what if we just tweaked it just a little bit 10 or 15% more intentionality? Like bit 10 or 15% more intentionality? Like bit 10 or 15% more intentionality? Like so what's been the most interesting part so what's been the most interesting part so what's been the most interesting part of your day so far? Or instead of where of your day so far? Or instead of where of your day so far? Or instead of where do you live, what's the most interesting do you live, what's the most interesting do you live, what's the most interesting part of where you live? Um, part of where you live? Um, part of where you live? Um, yeah. What what uh what are two or three yeah. What what uh what are two or three yeah. What what uh what are two or three adjectives you'd use to describe how adjectives you'd use to describe how adjectives you'd use to describe how your day is going so far or this season your day is going so far or this season your day is going so far or this season or how your family's doing?

or how your family's doing? or how your family's doing? >> It's a little bit more thoughtful, a >> It's a little bit more thoughtful, a >> It's a little bit more thoughtful, a little bit more specific on that. One of little bit more specific on that. One of little bit more specific on that. One of my favorites my dad likes to ask, he'll my favorites my dad likes to ask, he'll my favorites my dad likes to ask, he'll say, "Today, say, "Today, say, "Today, >> are you winning or losing?" And people >> are you winning or losing?" And people >> are you winning or losing?" And people go, "Uh, by what metric? You tell me." go, "Uh, by what metric? You tell me." go, "Uh, by what metric? You tell me." It's just a fascinating way to see how It's just a fascinating way to see how It's just a fascinating way to see how are people evaluating their day. Um, and are people evaluating their day. Um, and are people evaluating their day. Um, and so if there's any way to um, I'm not so if there's any way to um, I'm not so if there's any way to um, I'm not going to say that all closed questions going to say that all closed questions going to say that all closed questions are bad, but when it comes to connecting are bad, but when it comes to connecting are bad, but when it comes to connecting with people to say, how can I make this with people to say, how can I make this with people to say, how can I make this as impossible uh, nearly impossible to as impossible uh, nearly impossible to as impossible uh, nearly impossible to ask a question where they can only give ask a question where they can only give ask a question where they can only give me one-word answers. So, I do this with me one-word answers. So, I do this with me one-word answers. So, I do this with my kids, picking them up at school, you my kids, picking them up at school, you my kids, picking them up at school, you know, when they were younger, instead of know, when they were younger, instead of know, when they were younger, instead of saying what what do parents say? How was saying what what do parents say? How was saying what what do parents say? How was your day? your day? your day? >> How was your day? It >> How was your day? It >> How was your day? It >> was good. It was fun. I have boys. >> was good. It was fun. I have boys. >> was good. It was fun. I have boys. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. We have two sons as >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. We have two sons as >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. We have two sons as well. And so, um, but instead I would well. And so, um, but instead I would well. And so, um, but instead I would say, "So, what did you learn today you say, "So, what did you learn today you say, "So, what did you learn today you didn't know when you woke up this didn't know when you woke up this didn't know when you woke up this morning?" morning?" morning?" >> It's just another way of asking or what >> It's just another way of asking or what >> It's just another way of asking or what where did you find joy? Where did you where did you find joy? Where did you where did you find joy? Where did you laugh today? Did you have fun with your laugh today? Did you have fun with your laugh today? Did you have fun with your friends? Um, or what was the most friends? Um, or what was the most friends? Um, or what was the most interesting part of your day? It could interesting part of your day? It could interesting part of your day? It could be lunch, could be recess, could be be lunch, could be recess, could be be lunch, could be recess, could be practice after school, or it could be, practice after school, or it could be, practice after school, or it could be, well, we learned something really well, we learned something really well, we learned something really interesting in history I didn't know interesting in history I didn't know interesting in history I didn't know about. Well, that's way better than how about. Well, that's way better than how about. Well, that's way better than how was your day? good. And then we're just was your day? good. And then we're just was your day? good. And then we're just trying to pull teeth as parents. So, I'm trying to pull teeth as parents. So, I'm trying to pull teeth as parents. So, I'm trying to play that game without my boys trying to play that game without my boys trying to play that game without my boys knowing it when they were younger. Can I knowing it when they were younger. Can I knowing it when they were younger. Can I ask a question that it is impossible for ask a question that it is impossible for ask a question that it is impossible for them to answer with just one word?

them to answer with just one word? them to answer with just one word? >> So, that's been a rule that I've had for >> So, that's been a rule that I've had for >> So, that's been a rule that I've had for myself for this podcast, I think, pretty myself for this podcast, I think, pretty myself for this podcast, I think, pretty much since the outset. And I made much since the outset. And I made much since the outset. And I made mistakes, you know, but it would be mistakes, you know, but it would be mistakes, you know, but it would be like, uh, so was writing the book easy, like, uh, so was writing the book easy, like, uh, so was writing the book easy, J.R., right? Would that that set you up J.R., right? Would that that set you up J.R., right? Would that that set you up for a yes or no? Right. for a yes or no? Right. for a yes or no? Right. >> Right. That's leading questions. or do >> Right. That's leading questions. or do >> Right. That's leading questions. or do you enjoy leadership? Yes or no? you enjoy leadership? Yes or no? you enjoy leadership? Yes or no? >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> What would be what is the problem with >> What would be what is the problem with >> What would be what is the problem with that? that? that? >> And then you've given us some examples, >> And then you've given us some examples, >> And then you've given us some examples, but like I I just want people to but like I I just want people to but like I I just want people to understand what's at stake when you ask understand what's at stake when you ask understand what's at stake when you ask a question that can be answered yes, no, a question that can be answered yes, no, a question that can be answered yes, no, or or or >> you know that kind of binary short >> you know that kind of binary short >> you know that kind of binary short answer. answer. answer. >> Yeah. Yeah. The binary short answer of >> Yeah. Yeah. The binary short answer of >> Yeah. Yeah. The binary short answer of yes, no, or the aperture sometimes is so yes, no, or the aperture sometimes is so yes, no, or the aperture sometimes is so small we're boxing people in. We don't small we're boxing people in. We don't small we're boxing people in. We don't really know it, but we're doing them a really know it, but we're doing them a really know it, but we're doing them a disservice by, you know, sometimes it's disservice by, you know, sometimes it's disservice by, you know, sometimes it's maybe they say, "Well, is leaders, well, maybe they say, "Well, is leaders, well, maybe they say, "Well, is leaders, well, leadership is good and bad." Well, what leadership is good and bad." Well, what leadership is good and bad." Well, what do you mean? Well, I haven't given them do you mean? Well, I haven't given them do you mean? Well, I haven't given them that option to be able to talk about that option to be able to talk about that option to be able to talk about that. So, I want to open up the aperture that. So, I want to open up the aperture that. So, I want to open up the aperture and let them decide which direction they and let them decide which direction they and let them decide which direction they take it. Do they want to take it real take it. Do they want to take it real take it. Do they want to take it real personal? Do they want to take it on a personal? Do they want to take it on a personal? Do they want to take it on a on a macro level? But if I just corner on a macro level? But if I just corner on a macro level? But if I just corner them into sort of a yes, no answer, that them into sort of a yes, no answer, that them into sort of a yes, no answer, that can be difficult. You mentioned leading can be difficult. You mentioned leading can be difficult. You mentioned leading questions. I think and there's a questions. I think and there's a questions. I think and there's a differentiation. Sometimes we need to differentiation. Sometimes we need to differentiation. Sometimes we need to differentiate between leading questions differentiate between leading questions differentiate between leading questions and guiding questions. I think guiding and guiding questions. I think guiding and guiding questions. I think guiding questions are great of leading, you questions are great of leading, you questions are great of leading, you know, guiding people in a direction to know, guiding people in a direction to know, guiding people in a direction to be able to have them expound upon be able to have them expound upon be able to have them expound upon something we may know about them, but a something we may know about them, but a something we may know about them, but a leading question is if you disagree with leading question is if you disagree with leading question is if you disagree with me, then you're you're ostracized a

me, then you're you're ostracized a me, then you're you're ostracized a little bit, right? So, [laughter] yeah. little bit, right? So, [laughter] yeah. little bit, right? So, [laughter] yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so that we see that Yeah. Exactly. And so that we see that Yeah. Exactly. And so that we see that often with athletes, you know, who are often with athletes, you know, who are often with athletes, you know, who are being interviewed at the locker room, being interviewed at the locker room, being interviewed at the locker room, you know, at their locker after a game, you know, at their locker after a game, you know, at their locker after a game, right? You know, like, right? You know, like, right? You know, like, >> oh, I want that's one of my secret jobs, >> oh, I want that's one of my secret jobs, >> oh, I want that's one of my secret jobs, >> wasn't it? You know. >> wasn't it? You know. >> wasn't it? You know. >> Yeah, [laughter] that's right. How did >> Yeah, [laughter] that's right. How did >> Yeah, [laughter] that's right. How did How did it feel when you hit the Grand How did it feel when you hit the Grand How did it feel when you hit the Grand Slam walk-off home run? Well, Slam walk-off home run? Well, Slam walk-off home run? Well, >> what do you think it felt? [laughter] >> what do you think it felt? [laughter] >> what do you think it felt? [laughter] >> What do you What do you mean? Like, I >> What do you What do you mean? Like, I >> What do you What do you mean? Like, I want to I want to actually I was watch want to I want to actually I was watch want to I want to actually I was watch I'm watching the World Series right now, I'm watching the World Series right now, I'm watching the World Series right now, so this dates it. Okay. It's going to so this dates it. Okay. It's going to so this dates it. Okay. It's going to air a couple months later, but I'm like, air a couple months later, but I'm like, air a couple months later, but I'm like, can I can I do those on the field can I can I do those on the field can I can I do those on the field interviews? cuz I bet you I can come up interviews? cuz I bet you I can come up interviews? cuz I bet you I can come up with better questions. with better questions. with better questions. >> You know what I have? My father and I >> You know what I have? My father and I >> You know what I have? My father and I have talked about that many times and have talked about that many times and have talked about that many times and have actually come up with a list of have actually come up with a list of have actually come up with a list of questions that uh we would love to see questions that uh we would love to see questions that uh we would love to see asked of both. asked of both. asked of both. >> Okay, let's go. What's a couple of those >> Okay, let's go. What's a couple of those >> Okay, let's go. What's a couple of those questions? Cuz everyone's seen it questions? Cuz everyone's seen it questions? Cuz everyone's seen it >> and I'm like, you know, >> and I'm like, you know, >> and I'm like, you know, >> so what are they? >> so what are they? >> so what are they? >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't think the >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't think the >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't think the NCAA, this is college football or NCAA, this is college football or NCAA, this is college football or college basketball, I don't think they college basketball, I don't think they college basketball, I don't think they would allow it, but to say you're called would allow it, but to say you're called would allow it, but to say you're called a a uh a a student athlete. What did you a a uh a a student athlete. What did you a a uh a a student athlete. What did you learn this week in your classes that was learn this week in your classes that was learn this week in your classes that was exciting?

exciting? exciting? >> Now, I don't think they would allow that >> Now, I don't think they would allow that >> Now, I don't think they would allow that because you're going to bust the whole because you're going to bust the whole because you're going to bust the whole system. Uh [laughter] JR. system. Uh [laughter] JR. system. Uh [laughter] JR. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that that's >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that that's >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, that that's one, but also saying um you're obviously one, but also saying um you're obviously one, but also saying um you're obviously at the height right now after that at the height right now after that at the height right now after that winning touchdown or that that home run winning touchdown or that that home run winning touchdown or that that home run you hit. you hit. you hit. >> What were some lies you were tempted to >> What were some lies you were tempted to >> What were some lies you were tempted to believe during that 0 for 21 stretch believe during that 0 for 21 stretch believe during that 0 for 21 stretch that you had a couple months ago? that you had a couple months ago? that you had a couple months ago? >> Or that's a good question. >> Or that's a good question. >> Or that's a good question. >> You've gone through some some low points >> You've gone through some some low points >> You've gone through some some low points in your life and in your career. What in your life and in your career. What in your life and in your career. What does that feel like? the juxiposition does that feel like? the juxiposition does that feel like? the juxiposition when it was so low you wondered if you when it was so low you wondered if you when it was so low you wondered if you would continue if you might retire early would continue if you might retire early would continue if you might retire early and then now this. What does that gap and then now this. What does that gap and then now this. What does that gap feel like? When were you tempted to quit feel like? When were you tempted to quit feel like? When were you tempted to quit and how does what you feel now does it and how does what you feel now does it and how does what you feel now does it make it all worth it? Those are the kind make it all worth it? Those are the kind make it all worth it? Those are the kind of questions and not just the successes of questions and not just the successes of questions and not just the successes but reflecting on the successes but but reflecting on the successes but but reflecting on the successes but thinking back to when this wasn't thinking back to when this wasn't thinking back to when this wasn't happening. What was that like? Um, so happening. What was that like? Um, so happening. What was that like? Um, so the human human side of it, even things the human human side of it, even things the human human side of it, even things like who's the first person you're going like who's the first person you're going like who's the first person you're going to call when you get back to your to call when you get back to your to call when you get back to your locker.

locker. locker. >> That's great. I just would love to know >> That's great. I just would love to know >> That's great. I just would love to know who are they going to call to celebrate who are they going to call to celebrate who are they going to call to celebrate that with, their dad, their wife, their that with, their dad, their wife, their that with, their dad, their wife, their girlfriend, their their friend. Um, I I girlfriend, their their friend. Um, I I girlfriend, their their friend. Um, I I just I I think the human side of just I I think the human side of just I I think the human side of interviewing athletes, I think we could interviewing athletes, I think we could interviewing athletes, I think we could do a little bit of better job. do a little bit of better job. do a little bit of better job. So, lots of young leaders are getting So, lots of young leaders are getting So, lots of young leaders are getting around people that they have respected, around people that they have respected, around people that they have respected, whether that's someone who wrote a book, whether that's someone who wrote a book, whether that's someone who wrote a book, you know, a favorite preacher, they're you know, a favorite preacher, they're you know, a favorite preacher, they're at a conference, they meet their quote at a conference, they meet their quote at a conference, they meet their quote hero in the hallway and they get three hero in the hallway and they get three hero in the hallway and they get three minutes with said hero. Um, what are minutes with said hero. Um, what are minutes with said hero. Um, what are some dos and don'ts in terms of question some dos and don'ts in terms of question some dos and don'ts in terms of question asking in a moment like that? asking in a moment like that? asking in a moment like that? >> Yeah, great question. If you've got >> Yeah, great question. If you've got >> Yeah, great question. If you've got three minutes, I think the first thing three minutes, I think the first thing three minutes, I think the first thing is to ask for permission. I think is to ask for permission. I think is to ask for permission. I think sometimes we just assume I've got him sometimes we just assume I've got him sometimes we just assume I've got him and I can ask a question. I think just and I can ask a question. I think just and I can ask a question. I think just [laughter] right now he can't go [laughter] right now he can't go [laughter] right now he can't go anywhere anywhere anywhere when we as you know if we teach or when we as you know if we teach or when we as you know if we teach or preach or speak somewhere and we get off preach or speak somewhere and we get off preach or speak somewhere and we get off a stage sometimes we just need a break. a stage sometimes we just need a break. a stage sometimes we just need a break. We're not trying to be mean. We just We're not trying to be mean. We just We're not trying to be mean. We just we're depleted. And so just to have we're depleted. And so just to have we're depleted. And so just to have somebody say, "Would it be okay if I somebody say, "Would it be okay if I somebody say, "Would it be okay if I asked you a question or two?" Um for the asked you a question or two?" Um for the asked you a question or two?" Um for the next two or three minutes, questions next two or three minutes, questions next two or three minutes, questions I've been wanting to to ask you for a I've been wanting to to ask you for a I've been wanting to to ask you for a while. Um I just app have appreciate it while. Um I just app have appreciate it while. Um I just app have appreciate it um when people have extended that that um when people have extended that that um when people have extended that that courtesy to me and I think others have courtesy to me and I think others have courtesy to me and I think others have appreciate it when I have extended it to appreciate it when I have extended it to appreciate it when I have extended it to them. Um I also would encourage whether them. Um I also would encourage whether them. Um I also would encourage whether it's their hero or just anyone else any it's their hero or just anyone else any it's their hero or just anyone else any meeting any situation they're going into

meeting any situation they're going into meeting any situation they're going into any conversation always come prepared to any conversation always come prepared to any conversation always come prepared to ask two or three questions. You may not ask two or three questions. You may not ask two or three questions. You may not ever ask them, but just the exercise and ever ask them, but just the exercise and ever ask them, but just the exercise and the practice of forcing yourself to the practice of forcing yourself to the practice of forcing yourself to think through just a few engaging think through just a few engaging think through just a few engaging questions before you get there is a questions before you get there is a questions before you get there is a wonderful exercise. But there are times wonderful exercise. But there are times wonderful exercise. But there are times where I've met with some people that where I've met with some people that where I've met with some people that said, "I've got 10 minutes. I can give said, "I've got 10 minutes. I can give said, "I've got 10 minutes. I can give you 10 minutes." And I played a game you 10 minutes." And I played a game you 10 minutes." And I played a game with myself to say, "Can I ask them with myself to say, "Can I ask them with myself to say, "Can I ask them questions that they would say, I've questions that they would say, I've questions that they would say, I've never been asked that before. Oh, that's never been asked that before. Oh, that's never been asked that before. Oh, that's really good." I remember meeting with a really good." I remember meeting with a really good." I remember meeting with a college president once and I had 10 college president once and I had 10 college president once and I had 10 minutes with him and the knock at the minutes with him and the knock at the minutes with him and the knock at the door came at the 10-minute mark from his door came at the 10-minute mark from his door came at the 10-minute mark from his assistant and uh his assistant poked her assistant and uh his assistant poked her assistant and uh his assistant poked her head in and uh and said, you know, head in and uh and said, you know, head in and uh and said, you know, sorry, time's up. And he waved her off sorry, time's up. And he waved her off sorry, time's up. And he waved her off and said, you know, it's fine. It and said, you know, it's fine. It and said, you know, it's fine. It worked. worked. worked. >> Those are the best. I know. >> Those are the best. I know. >> Those are the best. I know. >> And I had another hour with this person >> And I had another hour with this person >> And I had another hour with this person um simply because I was asking better um simply because I was asking better um simply because I was asking better questions, but I came in prepared. I questions, but I came in prepared. I questions, but I came in prepared. I spent a lot of time thinking ahead of spent a lot of time thinking ahead of spent a lot of time thinking ahead of time. So, I would encourage anybody, time. So, I would encourage anybody, time. So, I would encourage anybody, especially young leaders, and I like to especially young leaders, and I like to especially young leaders, and I like to ask this question, sort of a party ask this question, sort of a party ask this question, sort of a party conversation. You know, who would you conversation. You know, who would you conversation. You know, who would you like to have dinner with? We sort of ask like to have dinner with? We sort of ask like to have dinner with? We sort of ask that, but the followup is when you're at that, but the followup is when you're at that, but the followup is when you're at dinner, what are the two or three or dinner, what are the two or three or dinner, what are the two or three or five questions or topics you'd want to five questions or topics you'd want to five questions or topics you'd want to talk to that person about if you had the talk to that person about if you had the talk to that person about if you had the chance?

chance? chance? >> That becomes an even more interesting >> That becomes an even more interesting >> That becomes an even more interesting conversation at that. So take that um conversation at that. So take that um conversation at that. So take that um university president, college president university president, college president university president, college president or you know hero and and you're not the or you know hero and and you're not the or you know hero and and you're not the first person on this show guest to say first person on this show guest to say first person on this show guest to say that they have prepared a list of that they have prepared a list of that they have prepared a list of questions and I've done the same thing. questions and I've done the same thing. questions and I've done the same thing. There are dream guests I've got for the There are dream guests I've got for the There are dream guests I've got for the show. Some of them I have files started show. Some of them I have files started show. Some of them I have files started of if I ever get a chance to talk to I of if I ever get a chance to talk to I of if I ever get a chance to talk to I am going to ask him or her xyz. How do am going to ask him or her xyz. How do am going to ask him or her xyz. How do you go about formulating interesting, you go about formulating interesting, you go about formulating interesting, provocative questions that make uh a provocative questions that make uh a provocative questions that make uh a college president's college president's college president's wave off his assistant and say, "No, wave off his assistant and say, "No, wave off his assistant and say, "No, it's okay. I don't need to limit this." it's okay. I don't need to limit this." it's okay. I don't need to limit this." >> Because we live in spaces and in time >> Because we live in spaces and in time >> Because we live in spaces and in time where there are conversation and where there are conversation and where there are conversation and question deserts. question deserts. question deserts. If you show interest and ask some If you show interest and ask some If you show interest and ask some thoughtful questions, it is like water thoughtful questions, it is like water thoughtful questions, it is like water for a parched soul. I mean, people love for a parched soul. I mean, people love for a parched soul. I mean, people love being asked questions. And if you can being asked questions. And if you can being asked questions. And if you can ask questions that aren't predictable or ask questions that aren't predictable or ask questions that aren't predictable or vanilla um or worn out, and it I really vanilla um or worn out, and it I really vanilla um or worn out, and it I really I try to play a game with myself, and I I try to play a game with myself, and I I try to play a game with myself, and I talk about this at the end of the book.

talk about this at the end of the book. talk about this at the end of the book. I try to play a game with myself that I try to play a game with myself that I try to play a game with myself that says, can I get them to say, "Huh, says, can I get them to say, "Huh, says, can I get them to say, "Huh, that's a really good question." Huh? that's a really good question." Huh? that's a really good question." Huh? I've never been asked that before. Huh? I've never been asked that before. Huh? I've never been asked that before. Huh? Can you give me a minute? I need to Can you give me a minute? I need to Can you give me a minute? I need to think about that. I think if you can get think about that. I think if you can get think about that. I think if you can get a few people responding that way, that's a few people responding that way, that's a few people responding that way, that's where people say, "Wow, they wouldn't where people say, "Wow, they wouldn't where people say, "Wow, they wouldn't necessarily articulate this, but they'll necessarily articulate this, but they'll necessarily articulate this, but they'll say, you're giving me a gift. Oh, you say, you're giving me a gift. Oh, you say, you're giving me a gift. Oh, you really know. I'm really thinking in some really know. I'm really thinking in some really know. I'm really thinking in some new ways. Wow, I feel seen." new ways. Wow, I feel seen." new ways. Wow, I feel seen." >> And so, it would be less about the types >> And so, it would be less about the types >> And so, it would be less about the types of questions and more about wanting them of questions and more about wanting them of questions and more about wanting them to feel loved, cared for, seen, thinking to feel loved, cared for, seen, thinking to feel loved, cared for, seen, thinking in a new way. Um, one of my favorite in a new way. Um, one of my favorite in a new way. Um, one of my favorite questions to ask people is, "What is the questions to ask people is, "What is the questions to ask people is, "What is the question that people either don't ask question that people either don't ask question that people either don't ask you or don't ask you very often that you you or don't ask you very often that you you or don't ask you very often that you wish they did?" wish they did?" wish they did?" >> It'll tell you a lie about who they've >> It'll tell you a lie about who they've >> It'll tell you a lie about who they've >> gotten into a habit of asking that >> gotten into a habit of asking that >> gotten into a habit of asking that question from time to time on this show, question from time to time on this show, question from time to time on this show, particularly if it's a well-known guest, particularly if it's a well-known guest, particularly if it's a well-known guest, right? right? right? >> I'll give you an example of, and let's >> I'll give you an example of, and let's >> I'll give you an example of, and let's just do this and then I'm going to flip just do this and then I'm going to flip just do this and then I'm going to flip the mic because you you had said this the mic because you you had said this the mic because you you had said this when we were setting up this interview. when we were setting up this interview. when we were setting up this interview. It's like, "Hey, if I get a chance to It's like, "Hey, if I get a chance to It's like, "Hey, if I get a chance to ask you some questions, I'm like, okay." ask you some questions, I'm like, okay." ask you some questions, I'm like, okay." And then you mention it again today, but And then you mention it again today, but And then you mention it again today, but like James Clear, who I mentioned like James Clear, who I mentioned like James Clear, who I mentioned already, you know, very hard to get an already, you know, very hard to get an already, you know, very hard to get an interview. He only does a few a year and interview. He only does a few a year and interview. He only does a few a year and we got him on this show. Uh same with we got him on this show. Uh same with we got him on this show. Uh same with Jim Collins and yeah, I'll use those two Jim Collins and yeah, I'll use those two Jim Collins and yeah, I'll use those two as a case study. So with Jim Collins, it as a case study. So with Jim Collins, it as a case study. So with Jim Collins, it was a year, took us a year to get a yes.

was a year, took us a year to get a yes. was a year, took us a year to get a yes. And it was very gentle, you know, And it was very gentle, you know, And it was very gentle, you know, connections and his whole team was connections and his whole team was connections and his whole team was amazing. But one of the things that amazing. But one of the things that amazing. But one of the things that happened was I happened to be interested happened was I happened to be interested happened was I happened to be interested in something that he was really in something that he was really in something that he was really interested in but never gets asked interested in but never gets asked interested in but never gets asked about. And that just happened to be his about. And that just happened to be his about. And that just happened to be his favorite book, which is How the Mighty favorite book, which is How the Mighty favorite book, which is How the Mighty Fall. Fall. Fall. >> So they were like, "Okay, Jim might be >> So they were like, "Okay, Jim might be >> So they were like, "Okay, Jim might be open to this. open to this. open to this. >> If you were to get an interview with >> If you were to get an interview with >> If you were to get an interview with him, what would you want to ask him him, what would you want to ask him him, what would you want to ask him about?" And I'm like, "Okay, I'm going about?" And I'm like, "Okay, I'm going about?" And I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to go for broke here because everyone's to go for broke here because everyone's to go for broke here because everyone's going to say good to great. Everyone's going to say good to great. Everyone's going to say good to great. Everyone's going to say built to last." I didn't going to say built to last." I didn't going to say built to last." I didn't tell him what I really think. I really tell him what I really think. I really tell him what I really think. I really like How the Mighty Fall. Yeah. like How the Mighty Fall. Yeah. like How the Mighty Fall. Yeah. >> So, I put that in the email to his team >> So, I put that in the email to his team >> So, I put that in the email to his team and they're like I'm like, "Okay, this and they're like I'm like, "Okay, this and they're like I'm like, "Okay, this could be it. This is the nail in the could be it. This is the nail in the could be it. This is the nail in the coffin." But they're like, "Turns out coffin." But they're like, "Turns out coffin." But they're like, "Turns out that Jim's that's Jim's favorite book. that Jim's that's Jim's favorite book. that Jim's that's Jim's favorite book. He never gets a chance to talk about it He never gets a chance to talk about it He never gets a chance to talk about it and wishes it saw more daylight." So, and wishes it saw more daylight." So, and wishes it saw more daylight." So, that really helped with James Clear. And that really helped with James Clear. And that really helped with James Clear. And I bumped into him once at an event after I bumped into him once at an event after I bumped into him once at an event after I interviewed him and he remembered the I interviewed him and he remembered the I interviewed him and he remembered the interview, but when we hung up the mic, interview, but when we hung up the mic, interview, but when we hung up the mic, you can listen to it. We'll link to it you can listen to it. We'll link to it you can listen to it. We'll link to it in the show notes. He said that was in the show notes. He said that was in the show notes. He said that was fascinating. He says, "Everybody asked fascinating. He says, "Everybody asked fascinating. He says, "Everybody asked me about habit making. Nobody asked me me about habit making. Nobody asked me me about habit making. Nobody asked me about the making of James Clear, the about the making of James Clear, the about the making of James Clear, the blog, building an email list, how I blog, building an email list, how I blog, building an email list, how I wrote the book, how I marketed the book.

wrote the book, how I marketed the book. wrote the book, how I marketed the book. He said, "That was just refreshing." And He said, "That was just refreshing." And He said, "That was just refreshing." And what I'm getting from a lot of these what I'm getting from a lot of these what I'm getting from a lot of these well-known people is they're doing the well-known people is they're doing the well-known people is they're doing the the FAQs over and over and over again, the FAQs over and over and over again, the FAQs over and over and over again, right? It's same 10 questions. And so right? It's same 10 questions. And so right? It's same 10 questions. And so when I've had a moment like that, it when I've had a moment like that, it when I've had a moment like that, it makes me feel like I won as an makes me feel like I won as an makes me feel like I won as an interviewer. Like, all right, I did interviewer. Like, all right, I did interviewer. Like, all right, I did something that was interesting to the something that was interesting to the something that was interesting to the guest as opposed to, guest as opposed to, guest as opposed to, oh yeah, this is interview number 75 on oh yeah, this is interview number 75 on oh yeah, this is interview number 75 on this book and same questions. So, um, this book and same questions. So, um, this book and same questions. So, um, any comments on that or learnings that any comments on that or learnings that any comments on that or learnings that you have and feel free to dissect the you have and feel free to dissect the you have and feel free to dissect the case study and, uh, suggest other ways case study and, uh, suggest other ways case study and, uh, suggest other ways that might be better. No, I I love that, that might be better. No, I I love that, that might be better. No, I I love that, Carrie, because what you're doing is Carrie, because what you're doing is Carrie, because what you're doing is you're giving people a gift to go in new you're giving people a gift to go in new you're giving people a gift to go in new directions, especially those two guests. directions, especially those two guests. directions, especially those two guests. I listened to both of those uh I listened to both of those uh I listened to both of those uh interviews that you had. They were both interviews that you had. They were both interviews that you had. They were both fantastic. And you could tell by their fantastic. And you could tell by their fantastic. And you could tell by their tone of voice, that they were really tone of voice, that they were really tone of voice, that they were really enjoying that. enjoying that. enjoying that. >> And true, if the guest is bored, you >> And true, if the guest is bored, you >> And true, if the guest is bored, you pick it up. pick it up. pick it up. >> You pick it up. You can hear it in their >> You pick it up. You can hear it in their >> You pick it up. You can hear it in their voice. Um and and so you do a really voice. Um and and so you do a really voice. Um and and so you do a really good job with that in terms of the good job with that in terms of the good job with that in terms of the preparation and asking things that they preparation and asking things that they preparation and asking things that they want to be asked like James Clear told want to be asked like James Clear told want to be asked like James Clear told you and and that's that's a beautiful you and and that's that's a beautiful you and and that's that's a beautiful gift. You gave both of them a gift but I gift. You gave both of them a gift but I gift. You gave both of them a gift but I I know you do that in numerous ways even I know you do that in numerous ways even I know you do that in numerous ways even when not on a podcast just when you're when not on a podcast just when you're when not on a podcast just when you're with people. Uh I'm sure that's who you with people. Uh I'm sure that's who you with people. Uh I'm sure that's who you are and and so are and and so are and and so >> yeah that that's that's uh if you know >> yeah that that's that's uh if you know >> yeah that that's that's uh if you know it's the whole like uh Carnegie you know it's the whole like uh Carnegie you know it's the whole like uh Carnegie you know don't try to be interesting try to be don't try to be interesting try to be don't try to be interesting try to be interested. If we can learn to be interested. If we can learn to be interested. If we can learn to be interested in other people, it's amazing

interested in other people, it's amazing interested in other people, it's amazing what can happen and we get waved off, what can happen and we get waved off, what can happen and we get waved off, you know, by the university president to you know, by the university president to you know, by the university president to have more time. have more time. have more time. >> How to win friends and influence people. >> How to win friends and influence people. >> How to win friends and influence people. I resisted that book for most of my I resisted that book for most of my I resisted that book for most of my life. I think I read it in my 40s. Maybe life. I think I read it in my 40s. Maybe life. I think I read it in my 40s. Maybe it was my early 50s and I'm like, "No it was my early 50s and I'm like, "No it was my early 50s and I'm like, "No wonder this thing is selling a hundred wonder this thing is selling a hundred wonder this thing is selling a hundred years after." years after." years after." >> It's so good. And same with he's got a >> It's so good. And same with he's got a >> It's so good. And same with he's got a story about, you know, the CEO that the story about, you know, the CEO that the story about, you know, the CEO that the sales guy could never get in to see. sales guy could never get in to see. sales guy could never get in to see. And, you know, after a year of hammering And, you know, after a year of hammering And, you know, after a year of hammering down the door with the assistant, he down the door with the assistant, he down the door with the assistant, he finally got a minute. You get one minute finally got a minute. You get one minute finally got a minute. You get one minute with the CEO and he walked in and he saw with the CEO and he walked in and he saw with the CEO and he walked in and he saw this like trophy fish on the wall and he this like trophy fish on the wall and he this like trophy fish on the wall and he goes, "You like fishing?" And that was goes, "You like fishing?" And that was goes, "You like fishing?" And that was it. Cuz his whole family was sick to it. Cuz his whole family was sick to it. Cuz his whole family was sick to death of hearing all of his fishing death of hearing all of his fishing death of hearing all of his fishing stories and his staff didn't want to stories and his staff didn't want to stories and his staff didn't want to hear them. Suddenly he had two hours for hear them. Suddenly he had two hours for hear them. Suddenly he had two hours for this guy to tell him all these fishing this guy to tell him all these fishing this guy to tell him all these fishing stories and then said, "Oh yeah, why stories and then said, "Oh yeah, why stories and then said, "Oh yeah, why were you here in the first place?" Yeah, were you here in the first place?" Yeah, were you here in the first place?" Yeah, I'll take a hundred of those, right? I'll take a hundred of those, right? I'll take a hundred of those, right? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Because he was interested. It's like >> Because he was interested. It's like >> Because he was interested. It's like such a classic thing that we have such a classic thing that we have such a classic thing that we have forgotten. forgotten. forgotten. >> Yep. And that's the arrows out versus >> Yep. And that's the arrows out versus >> Yep. And that's the arrows out versus the arrows in, you know, like can we the arrows in, you know, like can we the arrows in, you know, like can we really focus on what other people are really focus on what other people are really focus on what other people are doing? Can we do them can we serve them?

doing? Can we do them can we serve them? doing? Can we do them can we serve them? Can we do them a favor and bless them by Can we do them a favor and bless them by Can we do them a favor and bless them by saying tell me more? Tell me your story, saying tell me more? Tell me your story, saying tell me more? Tell me your story, your hopes, your dreams, your passions, your hopes, your dreams, your passions, your hopes, your dreams, your passions, your fears. It's amazing what happens. your fears. It's amazing what happens. your fears. It's amazing what happens. >> So, are you ready to flip the mic? >> So, are you ready to flip the mic? >> So, are you ready to flip the mic? >> Let's do it. >> Let's do it. >> Let's do it. >> I don't know why I'm a little >> I don't know why I'm a little >> I don't know why I'm a little apprehensive because because you wrote a apprehensive because because you wrote a apprehensive because because you wrote a book on question asking. Now, I'm going book on question asking. Now, I'm going book on question asking. Now, I'm going to be interrogated. to be interrogated. to be interrogated. >> Let's slap the reverse Uno card down on >> Let's slap the reverse Uno card down on >> Let's slap the reverse Uno card down on the table here. All right. Okay. the table here. All right. Okay. the table here. All right. Okay. >> So, let me start by saying like as as I >> So, let me start by saying like as as I >> So, let me start by saying like as as I mentioned, a longtime podcast listener, mentioned, a longtime podcast listener, mentioned, a longtime podcast listener, you really do ask great questions. So you really do ask great questions. So you really do ask great questions. So the first one is and I think it's the first one is and I think it's the first one is and I think it's because of your preparation, your because of your preparation, your because of your preparation, your curiosity, but what are the other how curiosity, but what are the other how curiosity, but what are the other how did you get so good at asking great did you get so good at asking great did you get so good at asking great questions. questions. questions. You know, it probably goes back to my You know, it probably goes back to my You know, it probably goes back to my burnout which you referenced and one of burnout which you referenced and one of burnout which you referenced and one of the learnings out of that season was I the learnings out of that season was I the learnings out of that season was I found myself getting really cynical and found myself getting really cynical and found myself getting really cynical and it was a problem. Like I think burnout it was a problem. Like I think burnout it was a problem. Like I think burnout and cynicism are almost um co like they and cynicism are almost um co like they and cynicism are almost um co like they they coexist and I thought gosh like I they coexist and I thought gosh like I they coexist and I thought gosh like I was in my I was 41 when I burned out and was in my I was 41 when I burned out and was in my I was 41 when I burned out and I thought if this is the rest of life I thought if this is the rest of life I thought if this is the rest of life this is drudgery. And so I started um this is drudgery. And so I started um this is drudgery. And so I started um researching researching researching like how do you combat cynicism? And like how do you combat cynicism? And like how do you combat cynicism? And there's not a whole lot of books on there's not a whole lot of books on there's not a whole lot of books on cynicism. I'm going to write one one cynicism. I'm going to write one one cynicism. I'm going to write one one day. But when I was doing the research day. But when I was doing the research day. But when I was doing the research for my second to last book, didn't see for my second to last book, didn't see for my second to last book, didn't see it coming, I really puzzled through it it coming, I really puzzled through it it coming, I really puzzled through it and I thought, you know, you know what's and I thought, you know, you know what's and I thought, you know, you know what's interesting and correlative is you never interesting and correlative is you never interesting and correlative is you never see see see cynical people who are curious. They

cynical people who are curious. They cynical people who are curious. They always have the answers. They're like, always have the answers. They're like, always have the answers. They're like, "Here's why this doesn't work." Or, you "Here's why this doesn't work." Or, you "Here's why this doesn't work." Or, you know, "Let me tell you when I was young, know, "Let me tell you when I was young, know, "Let me tell you when I was young, blah blah blah blah blah." But but um blah blah blah blah blah." But but um blah blah blah blah blah." But but um you know, people who are curious are you know, people who are curious are you know, people who are curious are never cynical. And I thought, okay, the never cynical. And I thought, okay, the never cynical. And I thought, okay, the good news is I can't change my good news is I can't change my good news is I can't change my disposition, but curiosity is a skill disposition, but curiosity is a skill disposition, but curiosity is a skill that can be learned. And so I'm like, I that can be learned. And so I'm like, I that can be learned. And so I'm like, I am going to be the question answer. And am going to be the question answer. And am going to be the question answer. And it was one of those things. I think I it was one of those things. I think I it was one of those things. I think I wrote about this at some point, but it wrote about this at some point, but it wrote about this at some point, but it was like I I was, you know, flipping was like I I was, you know, flipping was like I I was, you know, flipping through the channels one day. I came through the channels one day. I came through the channels one day. I came across PBS. I see this like 80-year-old across PBS. I see this like 80-year-old across PBS. I see this like 80-year-old professor. He's got the tweed jacket, professor. He's got the tweed jacket, professor. He's got the tweed jacket, the bow tie, sitting up straight being the bow tie, sitting up straight being the bow tie, sitting up straight being interviewed, and I think I was interviewed, and I think I was interviewed, and I think I was recovering from burnout at the time. And recovering from burnout at the time. And recovering from burnout at the time. And all I remember from the interview is he all I remember from the interview is he all I remember from the interview is he said, "Well, what we are now learning said, "Well, what we are now learning said, "Well, what we are now learning is" and it just hit me. It's like, is" and it just hit me. It's like, is" and it just hit me. It's like, "Dude, you're 80. What are you doing "Dude, you're 80. What are you doing "Dude, you're 80. What are you doing still learning?" And then I thought, still learning?" And then I thought, still learning?" And then I thought, "That's the key." "That's the key." "That's the key." >> And so I've made it a discipline for >> And so I've made it a discipline for >> And so I've made it a discipline for almost 20 years to be the asker to stay almost 20 years to be the asker to stay almost 20 years to be the asker to stay curious. And you know, there are seasons curious. And you know, there are seasons curious. And you know, there are seasons where I'm good at it, seasons where I'm where I'm good at it, seasons where I'm where I'm good at it, seasons where I'm not good at it. You know, you have a bad not good at it. You know, you have a bad not good at it. You know, you have a bad day, you're kind of like bl but but on day, you're kind of like bl but but on day, you're kind of like bl but but on my good days and in when I'm disciplined my good days and in when I'm disciplined my good days and in when I'm disciplined and prepped, it's like the well, your and prepped, it's like the well, your and prepped, it's like the well, your book is called the art of asking better book is called the art of asking better book is called the art of asking better questions, but I want to learn what is questions, but I want to learn what is questions, but I want to learn what is the art of asking a good question. So the art of asking a good question. So the art of asking a good question. So staying curious, honestly, is a personal staying curious, honestly, is a personal staying curious, honestly, is a personal discipline for me that keeps cynicism at discipline for me that keeps cynicism at discipline for me that keeps cynicism at bay. Because even if you kind of roll bay. Because even if you kind of roll bay. Because even if you kind of roll your eyes, it's like, well, okay, but if your eyes, it's like, well, okay, but if your eyes, it's like, well, okay, but if I ask some questions, I would learn that I ask some questions, I would learn that I ask some questions, I would learn that that person has a perfectly good reason

that person has a perfectly good reason that person has a perfectly good reason for believing what they're believing, for believing what they're believing, for believing what they're believing, and they're not stupid. Even though in and they're not stupid. Even though in and they're not stupid. Even though in my head I think they're stupid, they're my head I think they're stupid, they're my head I think they're stupid, they're probably not. And maybe if I got a probably not. And maybe if I got a probably not. And maybe if I got a little more curious, I would understand. little more curious, I would understand. little more curious, I would understand. So that's where it comes from. Yeah. So that's where it comes from. Yeah. So that's where it comes from. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So let me follow up Yeah. That's great. So let me follow up Yeah. That's great. So let me follow up with that and say if you and you're with that and say if you and you're with that and say if you and you're great at questions. If you were to grow great at questions. If you were to grow great at questions. If you were to grow in your ability to ask questions by like in your ability to ask questions by like in your ability to ask questions by like 10 or 15%. How might you go about 10 or 15%. How might you go about 10 or 15%. How might you go about growing in that ability? Oh, that is a growing in that ability? Oh, that is a growing in that ability? Oh, that is a good question. good question. good question. Um, see, you did it. Congratulations. Um, see, you did it. Congratulations. Um, see, you did it. Congratulations. I I think I would have to become a a I I think I would have to become a a I I think I would have to become a a deeper student of the art of asking deeper student of the art of asking deeper student of the art of asking questions because I think your natural questions because I think your natural questions because I think your natural aptitude and curiosity gets you so far. aptitude and curiosity gets you so far. aptitude and curiosity gets you so far. So, some of what I do is I listen to So, some of what I do is I listen to So, some of what I do is I listen to different podcasts, often not outside, different podcasts, often not outside, different podcasts, often not outside, hope this isn't heresy, I don't listen hope this isn't heresy, I don't listen hope this isn't heresy, I don't listen to a ton of Christian podcasts because I to a ton of Christian podcasts because I to a ton of Christian podcasts because I find that Christians are not the best find that Christians are not the best find that Christians are not the best question askers. We are answer givers question askers. We are answer givers question askers. We are answer givers and I really love the curiosity on a lot and I really love the curiosity on a lot and I really love the curiosity on a lot of other podcasts. One of the reasons I of other podcasts. One of the reasons I of other podcasts. One of the reasons I bought your book um is it's got an bought your book um is it's got an bought your book um is it's got an appendex of like excellent excellent appendex of like excellent excellent appendex of like excellent excellent questions in it and so I wanted to have questions in it and so I wanted to have questions in it and so I wanted to have that handy so that I kind of go through that handy so that I kind of go through that handy so that I kind of go through and um have a resource for questions and and um have a resource for questions and and um have a resource for questions and I think you know it's it's okay it's I think you know it's it's okay it's I think you know it's it's okay it's something else you mentioned early on something else you mentioned early on something else you mentioned early on that I was going to flag and I didn't that I was going to flag and I didn't that I was going to flag and I didn't but you mentioned your code word with but you mentioned your code word with but you mentioned your code word with your wife about waitress you know and your wife about waitress you know and your wife about waitress you know and you said something that's really you said something that's really you said something that's really interesting that is a test that I have

interesting that is a test that I have interesting that is a test that I have used now probably for 20 years or longer used now probably for 20 years or longer used now probably for 20 years or longer which is what I call the meal test. I which is what I call the meal test. I which is what I call the meal test. I don't think I've ever written about it don't think I've ever written about it don't think I've ever written about it or talked about it but I became aware or talked about it but I became aware or talked about it but I became aware because I'm married to a wonderful woman because I'm married to a wonderful woman because I'm married to a wonderful woman that I can talk forever and she'd be that I can talk forever and she'd be that I can talk forever and she'd be like you dominated that conversation and like you dominated that conversation and like you dominated that conversation and she's not wrong. And so what I do, how she's not wrong. And so what I do, how she's not wrong. And so what I do, how quickly people eat at a social dinner is quickly people eat at a social dinner is quickly people eat at a social dinner is an indicator of how much they've talked an indicator of how much they've talked an indicator of how much they've talked and how much you've talked. And if I'm and how much you've talked. And if I'm and how much you've talked. And if I'm at a place where I've eaten the entire at a place where I've eaten the entire at a place where I've eaten the entire meal and the other person hasn't taken a meal and the other person hasn't taken a meal and the other person hasn't taken a bite of their salad, chances are they've bite of their salad, chances are they've bite of their salad, chances are they've done all the talking and I haven't. And done all the talking and I haven't. And done all the talking and I haven't. And so what I try to do is I will actually so what I try to do is I will actually so what I try to do is I will actually pace my eating and look around and if I pace my eating and look around and if I pace my eating and look around and if I see that, you know, I'm I haven't see that, you know, I'm I haven't see that, you know, I'm I haven't touched anything and they're almost touched anything and they're almost touched anything and they're almost done, I have dominated the conversation. done, I have dominated the conversation. done, I have dominated the conversation. >> So I I use little tests like that, try >> So I I use little tests like that, try >> So I I use little tests like that, try to listen widely and I would become a to listen widely and I would become a to listen widely and I would become a better student of the art of the better student of the art of the better student of the art of the interview. Oprah Winfrey, by the way, is interview. Oprah Winfrey, by the way, is interview. Oprah Winfrey, by the way, is a great interviewer. a great interviewer. a great interviewer. >> Amazing interview. What do you think she >> Amazing interview. What do you think she >> Amazing interview. What do you think she does? What is it that she's doing that does? What is it that she's doing that does? What is it that she's doing that makes people say, "I've never told makes people say, "I've never told makes people say, "I've never told anybody this." and there are millions of anybody this." and there are millions of anybody this." and there are millions of people listening hearing something for people listening hearing something for people listening hearing something for the first time. What is she doing that the first time. What is she doing that the first time. What is she doing that makes her brilliant?

makes her brilliant? makes her brilliant? >> I don't know for sure. I listen to >> I don't know for sure. I listen to >> I don't know for sure. I listen to there's a great podcast I think it's there's a great podcast I think it's there's a great podcast I think it's still out there called The Making of still out there called The Making of still out there called The Making of Oprah that I listened to years and years Oprah that I listened to years and years Oprah that I listened to years and years ago which is amazing. ago which is amazing. ago which is amazing. I think people trust her and I hear a I think people trust her and I hear a I think people trust her and I hear a very I'm I'm kind of importing my very I'm I'm kind of importing my very I'm I'm kind of importing my experience on Oprah. So if there's any experience on Oprah. So if there's any experience on Oprah. So if there's any Oprah students out there feel free to Oprah students out there feel free to Oprah students out there feel free to correct me. But one of the reasons cuz I correct me. But one of the reasons cuz I correct me. But one of the reasons cuz I hear that quite a bit. I'll have hear that quite a bit. I'll have hear that quite a bit. I'll have well-known people on here who have said, well-known people on here who have said, well-known people on here who have said, "I've never talked about this before." "I've never talked about this before." "I've never talked about this before." Or are even wondering, "Wow, should we Or are even wondering, "Wow, should we Or are even wondering, "Wow, should we let that air like that was very let that air like that was very let that air like that was very vulnerable?" And I think I think the vulnerable?" And I think I think the vulnerable?" And I think I think the reason is they trust me and they know reason is they trust me and they know reason is they trust me and they know I'm not out to get them. I'm not the the I'm not out to get them. I'm not the the I'm not out to get them. I'm not the the journalist slash person who wants to see journalist slash person who wants to see journalist slash person who wants to see them cancelled. And I think Oprah has them cancelled. And I think Oprah has them cancelled. And I think Oprah has been very vulnerable about her life as been very vulnerable about her life as been very vulnerable about her life as well. Very open. you know, everything well. Very open. you know, everything well. Very open. you know, everything from her relationships to her weight from her relationships to her weight from her relationships to her weight loss battle to her, you know, all the loss battle to her, you know, all the loss battle to her, you know, all the things she struggled with. And people things she struggled with. And people things she struggled with. And people admire your strengths, but they identify admire your strengths, but they identify admire your strengths, but they identify your weaknesses. I identify with your your weaknesses. I identify with your your weaknesses. I identify with your weaknesses. Like they really they really weaknesses. Like they really they really weaknesses. Like they really they really empathize with them. So, I think I've empathize with them. So, I think I've empathize with them. So, I think I've been pretty transparent. I think people been pretty transparent. I think people been pretty transparent. I think people know like I want guests to want to come know like I want guests to want to come know like I want guests to want to come back. And the moment that I do a gotcha back. And the moment that I do a gotcha back. And the moment that I do a gotcha interview, they don't want to come back.

interview, they don't want to come back. interview, they don't want to come back. And I think Oprah's the same way that And I think Oprah's the same way that And I think Oprah's the same way that she'll have some really candid moments. she'll have some really candid moments. she'll have some really candid moments. But it's one thing there's a Larry King But it's one thing there's a Larry King But it's one thing there's a Larry King story that's fascinating. He was he's I story that's fascinating. He was he's I story that's fascinating. He was he's I may have told this before on the may have told this before on the may have told this before on the podcast. I'll give the abbreviated podcast. I'll give the abbreviated podcast. I'll give the abbreviated version and you might know it J.R. where version and you might know it J.R. where version and you might know it J.R. where he was starting in radio. I think it was he was starting in radio. I think it was he was starting in radio. I think it was in Miami when he was really young and he in Miami when he was really young and he in Miami when he was really young and he got a show and he had somehow gotten to got a show and he had somehow gotten to got a show and he had somehow gotten to know Jackie Gleason and did something know Jackie Gleason and did something know Jackie Gleason and did something good for Jackie Gleason. Do you know good for Jackie Gleason. Do you know good for Jackie Gleason. Do you know this story? I don't but this story? I don't but this story? I don't but >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> So he got to know Jackie Gleason and >> So he got to know Jackie Gleason and >> So he got to know Jackie Gleason and Gleon owed him a favor of some kind. So Gleon owed him a favor of some kind. So Gleon owed him a favor of some kind. So he's trying to make his name in radio he's trying to make his name in radio he's trying to make his name in radio before he was a Larry King that we all before he was a Larry King that we all before he was a Larry King that we all know and he was just at a local radio know and he was just at a local radio know and he was just at a local radio station and Frank Sinatra was in town station and Frank Sinatra was in town station and Frank Sinatra was in town and he knew that Gleon and Sinatra were and he knew that Gleon and Sinatra were and he knew that Gleon and Sinatra were best friends. So he called up Gleon and best friends. So he called up Gleon and best friends. So he called up Gleon and said, "I need Frank Sinatra on my said, "I need Frank Sinatra on my said, "I need Frank Sinatra on my program." And Gleon said, "Done." Well, program." And Gleon said, "Done." Well, program." And Gleon said, "Done." Well, Frank Sinatra's PR guys were like really Frank Sinatra's PR guys were like really Frank Sinatra's PR guys were like really livid. who's this stupid kid nobody's livid. who's this stupid kid nobody's livid. who's this stupid kid nobody's ever heard of. Frank Sinatra doesn't ever heard of. Frank Sinatra doesn't ever heard of. Frank Sinatra doesn't have time for this, but Sinatra showed have time for this, but Sinatra showed have time for this, but Sinatra showed up at the radio station and was willing up at the radio station and was willing up at the radio station and was willing to give him two hours for the interview.

to give him two hours for the interview. to give him two hours for the interview. >> Wow. Wow. >> Wow. Wow. >> Wow. Wow. >> So, Larry King starts doing the as he's >> So, Larry King starts doing the as he's >> So, Larry King starts doing the as he's preparing for the interview, uh, preparing for the interview, uh, preparing for the interview, uh, Sinatra's guy comes up to him and says, Sinatra's guy comes up to him and says, Sinatra's guy comes up to him and says, >> "Hey, whatever you do, don't talk to him >> "Hey, whatever you do, don't talk to him >> "Hey, whatever you do, don't talk to him about his child. You're not allowed to about his child. You're not allowed to about his child. You're not allowed to do that." And Sinatra apparently had a do that." And Sinatra apparently had a do that." And Sinatra apparently had a child who was kidnapped and very child who was kidnapped and very child who was kidnapped and very sensitive topic. not allowed to talk sensitive topic. not allowed to talk sensitive topic. not allowed to talk about it. So, you know, Larry King's about it. So, you know, Larry King's about it. So, you know, Larry King's like, "Okay, that's fine." So, um, like, "Okay, that's fine." So, um, like, "Okay, that's fine." So, um, they're about an hour, hour and a half they're about an hour, hour and a half they're about an hour, hour and a half into the interview and Larry knows he into the interview and Larry knows he into the interview and Larry knows he can't ask the question, so instead he can't ask the question, so instead he can't ask the question, so instead he just ask him, "Frank, Mr. Sinatra, have just ask him, "Frank, Mr. Sinatra, have just ask him, "Frank, Mr. Sinatra, have you ever felt like the press gave you a you ever felt like the press gave you a you ever felt like the press gave you a really bum rap?" And he goes, "Actually, really bum rap?" And he goes, "Actually, really bum rap?" And he goes, "Actually, yeah." For example, when my son was yeah." For example, when my son was yeah." For example, when my son was kidnapped, and then he goes on and tells kidnapped, and then he goes on and tells kidnapped, and then he goes on and tells the story, right? had he framed it, he the story, right? had he framed it, he the story, right? had he framed it, he and I've thought about that because I've and I've thought about that because I've and I've thought about that because I've had some very highprofile people. I'll had some very highprofile people. I'll had some very highprofile people. I'll just ask him questions like, "How did just ask him questions like, "How did just ask him questions like, "How did that make you feel?" or "Do you ever get that make you feel?" or "Do you ever get that make you feel?" or "Do you ever get emotional or you ever feel like emotional or you ever feel like emotional or you ever feel like quitting?" And it's not a loaded quitting?" And it's not a loaded quitting?" And it's not a loaded question, but they will then open up if question, but they will then open up if question, but they will then open up if you have that trust. And I think Oprah you have that trust. And I think Oprah you have that trust. And I think Oprah has that gift.

has that gift. has that gift. >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. I'm curious, too, you're right. I'm curious, too, you're right. I'm curious, too, >> if you're willing to go there, and if >> if you're willing to go there, and if >> if you're willing to go there, and if you aren't, it's okay. But what do you you aren't, it's okay. But what do you you aren't, it's okay. But what do you sense people get wrong about you? Like, sense people get wrong about you? Like, sense people get wrong about you? Like, where are you often misunderstood? where are you often misunderstood? where are you often misunderstood? Hm. One area I hear about regularly is I Hm. One area I hear about regularly is I Hm. One area I hear about regularly is I don't use much scripture don't use much scripture don't use much scripture [laughter] in my work and in my writing. [laughter] in my work and in my writing. [laughter] in my work and in my writing. And I I mean back in the day when vlogs And I I mean back in the day when vlogs And I I mean back in the day when vlogs had comments, we'd get trounced on that had comments, we'd get trounced on that had comments, we'd get trounced on that all the time. And I'm sure they're on all the time. And I'm sure they're on all the time. And I'm sure they're on YouTube. I don't I don't spend a lot of YouTube. I don't I don't spend a lot of YouTube. I don't I don't spend a lot of time in the comments these days. Um I time in the comments these days. Um I time in the comments these days. Um I think I think the reason I don't do think I think the reason I don't do think I think the reason I don't do that, it's not that I'm not a Christian. that, it's not that I'm not a Christian. that, it's not that I'm not a Christian. It's not that I don't care uh about It's not that I don't care uh about It's not that I don't care uh about scripture. I I care about scripture very scripture. I I care about scripture very scripture. I I care about scripture very much. But most of the things that I'm much. But most of the things that I'm much. But most of the things that I'm commenting on on this podcast, on my commenting on on this podcast, on my commenting on on this podcast, on my YouTube channel, on my other stuff is YouTube channel, on my other stuff is YouTube channel, on my other stuff is the stuff that isn't specifically in the the stuff that isn't specifically in the the stuff that isn't specifically in the scripture. You know, the the business scripture. You know, the the business scripture. You know, the the business card of what I do these days is I went card of what I do these days is I went card of what I do these days is I went to law school, but nobody taught me how to law school, but nobody taught me how to law school, but nobody taught me how to run a law firm and I went to seminary to run a law firm and I went to seminary to run a law firm and I went to seminary and nobody taught me how to run a and nobody taught me how to run a and nobody taught me how to run a church. So, I'm trying to fill in the church. So, I'm trying to fill in the church. So, I'm trying to fill in the gaps of what leaders have to learn on gaps of what leaders have to learn on gaps of what leaders have to learn on their own the hard way. Try to give them their own the hard way. Try to give them their own the hard way. Try to give them the cheat code. So, and and the other the cheat code. So, and and the other the cheat code. So, and and the other thing I'm very very sensitive to is thing I'm very very sensitive to is thing I'm very very sensitive to is people have misused and abused scripture people have misused and abused scripture people have misused and abused scripture so often that, you know, if I have an so often that, you know, if I have an so often that, you know, if I have an opinion about, you know, your church opinion about, you know, your church opinion about, you know, your church governance or I have an opinion on how governance or I have an opinion on how governance or I have an opinion on how you should hire fire staff or I have an you should hire fire staff or I have an you should hire fire staff or I have an opinion on how to reach unchurched opinion on how to reach unchurched opinion on how to reach unchurched people, but that's all it is, an people, but that's all it is, an people, but that's all it is, an opinion. I don't want to use scripture opinion. I don't want to use scripture opinion. I don't want to use scripture as uh a muscle flex about an opinion

as uh a muscle flex about an opinion as uh a muscle flex about an opinion that honestly could be wrong. And so, so that honestly could be wrong. And so, so that honestly could be wrong. And so, so that's one thing I hear. Um, another that's one thing I hear. Um, another that's one thing I hear. Um, another thing probably, you know, criticism I thing probably, you know, criticism I thing probably, you know, criticism I hear is that I won't weigh in on hear is that I won't weigh in on hear is that I won't weigh in on politics expressly. I do. I just do it politics expressly. I do. I just do it politics expressly. I do. I just do it in a way that doesn't use the trigger in a way that doesn't use the trigger in a way that doesn't use the trigger words that um either are are things that words that um either are are things that words that um either are are things that the right or the left want to hear or the right or the left want to hear or the right or the left want to hear or things that they despise. So, I'm I'm things that they despise. So, I'm I'm things that they despise. So, I'm I'm working really hard on making a working really hard on making a working really hard on making a contribution in certain areas. sometimes contribution in certain areas. sometimes contribution in certain areas. sometimes by not making a contribution, sometimes by not making a contribution, sometimes by not making a contribution, sometimes by just trying to say things in a way by just trying to say things in a way by just trying to say things in a way that avoids stepping on the landmines that avoids stepping on the landmines that avoids stepping on the landmines that um blow up a lot of our our feeds that um blow up a lot of our our feeds that um blow up a lot of our our feeds these days. And yeah, those are two. I these days. And yeah, those are two. I these days. And yeah, those are two. I mean, do you see anything that you would mean, do you see anything that you would mean, do you see anything that you would say I think people think this about you, say I think people think this about you, say I think people think this about you, but I'm not sure it's true but I'm not sure it's true but I'm not sure it's true >> about me personally? >> about me personally? >> about me personally? >> No. Well, or you whatever. Yeah, I I I >> No. Well, or you whatever. Yeah, I I I >> No. Well, or you whatever. Yeah, I I I don't. But I I really appreciate your don't. But I I really appreciate your don't. But I I really appreciate your vulnerability to be able to share where vulnerability to be able to share where vulnerability to be able to share where you're at with that. And um yeah, I you're at with that. And um yeah, I you're at with that. And um yeah, I think it shows some good self-awareness think it shows some good self-awareness think it shows some good self-awareness as well. Um I'm curious, you know, you as well. Um I'm curious, you know, you as well. Um I'm curious, you know, you just had a re recently you put out a just had a re recently you put out a just had a re recently you put out a preaching course.

preaching course. preaching course. >> I'm curious as we talk about preaching >> I'm curious as we talk about preaching >> I'm curious as we talk about preaching and question asking if we took Jesus's and question asking if we took Jesus's and question asking if we took Jesus's posture and priority of how we ask posture and priority of how we ask posture and priority of how we ask questions, how do you think that would questions, how do you think that would questions, how do you think that would impact preaching and how people would impact preaching and how people would impact preaching and how people would receive preaching? receive preaching? receive preaching? >> Very positively. Um, I did an interview >> Very positively. Um, I did an interview >> Very positively. Um, I did an interview with Adam Grant where we talked about with Adam Grant where we talked about with Adam Grant where we talked about sort of the approach of of preaching sort of the approach of of preaching sort of the approach of of preaching that I try to have and basically because that I try to have and basically because that I try to have and basically because I I had the, you know, good fortune to I I had the, you know, good fortune to I I had the, you know, good fortune to be trained in cross-examination at law be trained in cross-examination at law be trained in cross-examination at law school. All cross-examination is really school. All cross-examination is really school. All cross-examination is really is anticipating the questions and is anticipating the questions and is anticipating the questions and objections of everybody at play. What is objections of everybody at play. What is objections of everybody at play. What is the other side going to say? What is a the other side going to say? What is a the other side going to say? What is a judge need? What is a judge going to judge need? What is a judge going to judge need? What is a judge going to ask? What does the case law require? And ask? What does the case law require? And ask? What does the case law require? And I approach I approach I approach uh a talk or a sermon very similarly uh a talk or a sermon very similarly uh a talk or a sermon very similarly where I'm I'm trying very hard to think, where I'm I'm trying very hard to think, where I'm I'm trying very hard to think, okay, I'm going to say that this is what okay, I'm going to say that this is what okay, I'm going to say that this is what the Bible says. This is what Jesus the Bible says. This is what Jesus the Bible says. This is what Jesus taught. This is what Paul argued in taught. This is what Paul argued in taught. This is what Paul argued in Romans, but what are the real world Romans, but what are the real world Romans, but what are the real world questions and objections that are going questions and objections that are going questions and objections that are going to come up and then I'll try to list to come up and then I'll try to list to come up and then I'll try to list those questions and objections? And those questions and objections? And those questions and objections? And sometimes, and Keller did this sometimes, and Keller did this sometimes, and Keller did this masterfully too, you'll you'll raise masterfully too, you'll you'll raise masterfully too, you'll you'll raise them. You know, you'll say, um, I'm just them. You know, you'll say, um, I'm just them. You know, you'll say, um, I'm just trying to pick an issue. Uh, Romans 7, trying to pick an issue. Uh, Romans 7, trying to pick an issue. Uh, Romans 7, classic text about I don't know why I do classic text about I don't know why I do classic text about I don't know why I do what I do. Paul, we get a, you know, what I do. Paul, we get a, you know, what I do. Paul, we get a, you know, it's almost like a a a page from his it's almost like a a a page from his it's almost like a a a page from his diary just got dropped into into the diary just got dropped into into the diary just got dropped into into the scriptures. Of course, that isn't what scriptures. Of course, that isn't what scriptures. Of course, that isn't what happened, but you know, it's like you

happened, but you know, it's like you happened, but you know, it's like you could ask questions. Do you ever feel could ask questions. Do you ever feel could ask questions. Do you ever feel like you're a fraud? You ever feel like like you're a fraud? You ever feel like like you're a fraud? You ever feel like you have imposttor syndrome? not so much you have imposttor syndrome? not so much you have imposttor syndrome? not so much at work, but in terms of like your at work, but in terms of like your at work, but in terms of like your Christian faith, like you're like, Christian faith, like you're like, Christian faith, like you're like, "Okay, I'm never going to do that "Okay, I'm never going to do that "Okay, I'm never going to do that again." And then you do it. Well, you again." And then you do it. Well, you again." And then you do it. Well, you know what? You're not alone. And so, know what? You're not alone. And so, know what? You're not alone. And so, there's a series of questions that draws there's a series of questions that draws there's a series of questions that draws people in. And then the surprise is, people in. And then the surprise is, people in. And then the surprise is, "Oh, the guy who wrote twothirds of the "Oh, the guy who wrote twothirds of the "Oh, the guy who wrote twothirds of the New Testament also struggle with the New Testament also struggle with the New Testament also struggle with the same stuff." And this appears to be in same stuff." And this appears to be in same stuff." And this appears to be in the present tense. This isn't the present tense. This isn't the present tense. This isn't preconversion from what we can tell. preconversion from what we can tell. preconversion from what we can tell. Huh. What do we do with that? Right? So, Huh. What do we do with that? Right? So, Huh. What do we do with that? Right? So, it's a series of questions where you're it's a series of questions where you're it's a series of questions where you're almost looking at the text and then almost looking at the text and then almost looking at the text and then you're like, "Oh, if that's Paul, what you're like, "Oh, if that's Paul, what you're like, "Oh, if that's Paul, what does that mean? Is this whole thing a does that mean? Is this whole thing a does that mean? Is this whole thing a fraud?" Uh, I I I love that. That's a fraud?" Uh, I I I love that. That's a fraud?" Uh, I I I love that. That's a technique Fredratic uh the the Emory technique Fredratic uh the the Emory technique Fredratic uh the the Emory University used to teach this. He'd say, University used to teach this. He'd say, University used to teach this. He'd say, "State the problem and then make the "State the problem and then make the "State the problem and then make the problem worse." And if you're doing that problem worse." And if you're doing that problem worse." And if you're doing that really well through a series of really well through a series of really well through a series of questions and assertions, you can get questions and assertions, you can get questions and assertions, you can get yourself into a place where everyone yourself into a place where everyone yourself into a place where everyone says, "Oh, there's you're now you're says, "Oh, there's you're now you're says, "Oh, there's you're now you're screwed. you've deconstructed your faith screwed. you've deconstructed your faith screwed. you've deconstructed your faith in the pulpit and there's no getting out in the pulpit and there's no getting out in the pulpit and there's no getting out of this and then of course boom you turn of this and then of course boom you turn of this and then of course boom you turn the corner and you get out of it by the corner and you get out of it by the corner and you get out of it by sharing well what's really going on but sharing well what's really going on but sharing well what's really going on but at that point you've got people engaged at that point you've got people engaged at that point you've got people engaged with a series of questions another thing with a series of questions another thing with a series of questions another thing Andy Stanley does very very well it's Andy Stanley does very very well it's Andy Stanley does very very well it's sort of you know pardon the metaphor but sort of you know pardon the metaphor but sort of you know pardon the metaphor but a bit of a shotgun approach so you got a bit of a shotgun approach so you got a bit of a shotgun approach so you got to think what is this like for the to think what is this like for the to think what is this like for the single mom for the married person for single mom for the married person for single mom for the married person for the divorced person for the empty the divorced person for the empty the divorced person for the empty neester for the new parent for the neester for the new parent for the neester for the new parent for the single person, right? And so you'll go single person, right? And so you'll go single person, right? And so you'll go through a number of scenarios either by through a number of scenarios either by through a number of scenarios either by question asking or by just saying, you

question asking or by just saying, you question asking or by just saying, you know, and if you're single, you know, know, and if you're single, you know, know, and if you're single, you know, maybe this feels like this, I don't maybe this feels like this, I don't maybe this feels like this, I don't know, does it feel like that? Um, and if know, does it feel like that? Um, and if know, does it feel like that? Um, and if you're divorced, maybe it feels like you're divorced, maybe it feels like you're divorced, maybe it feels like this. And so you end up in a place where this. And so you end up in a place where this. And so you end up in a place where you've kind of gone through who's there you've kind of gone through who's there you've kind of gone through who's there and you're thinking about that. and you're thinking about that. and you're thinking about that. Similarly, with this this podcast, I Similarly, with this this podcast, I Similarly, with this this podcast, I think about the the pastor, 85% of think about the the pastor, 85% of think about the the pastor, 85% of churches are 200 people or less. So, I churches are 200 people or less. So, I churches are 200 people or less. So, I try to, if we're, you know, talking to a try to, if we're, you know, talking to a try to, if we're, you know, talking to a megaurch pastor, try to make sure that megaurch pastor, try to make sure that megaurch pastor, try to make sure that we figure this out so it works for we figure this out so it works for we figure this out so it works for everybody. But I also realize that a lot everybody. But I also realize that a lot everybody. But I also realize that a lot of the most influential pastors who lead of the most influential pastors who lead of the most influential pastors who lead the largest churches in America listen the largest churches in America listen the largest churches in America listen to the show as well. So, I'm trying to to the show as well. So, I'm trying to to the show as well. So, I'm trying to do both and trying to ask questions on do both and trying to ask questions on do both and trying to ask questions on behalf of my audience uh of that. So I I behalf of my audience uh of that. So I I behalf of my audience uh of that. So I I just love questions and I think if we just love questions and I think if we just love questions and I think if we did more of that rather than, you know, did more of that rather than, you know, did more of that rather than, you know, put our glasses at the end of the nose put our glasses at the end of the nose put our glasses at the end of the nose and say, "Well, I'm going to tell you and say, "Well, I'm going to tell you and say, "Well, I'm going to tell you today exactly what you should believe on today exactly what you should believe on today exactly what you should believe on an issue," we would have more an issue," we would have more an issue," we would have more engagement. And as you say, I love that engagement. And as you say, I love that engagement. And as you say, I love that phrase, questions hijack the brain. So phrase, questions hijack the brain. So phrase, questions hijack the brain. So if we ask more and and it's very if we ask more and and it's very if we ask more and and it's very effective to finish a sermon with a effective to finish a sermon with a effective to finish a sermon with a question, too. You know, the way I question, too. You know, the way I question, too. You know, the way I wrapped up on Sunday was uh so I I want wrapped up on Sunday was uh so I I want wrapped up on Sunday was uh so I I want to finish with the question that I to finish with the question that I to finish with the question that I started with. How are you really?

started with. How are you really? started with. How are you really? >> And I hope the next time we meet >> And I hope the next time we meet >> And I hope the next time we meet >> from the beginning to the end. >> from the beginning to the end. >> from the beginning to the end. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like an inclusio, >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like an inclusio, >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like an inclusio, right? That literary device. So, how are right? That literary device. So, how are right? That literary device. So, how are you really like for real real? And I you really like for real real? And I you really like for real real? And I hope the next time we talk hope the next time we talk hope the next time we talk >> it's a different answer. >> it's a different answer. >> it's a different answer. >> Yeah. That's that's wonderful, Carrie. >> Yeah. That's that's wonderful, Carrie. >> Yeah. That's that's wonderful, Carrie. It Jonah is my favorite book of the Old It Jonah is my favorite book of the Old It Jonah is my favorite book of the Old Testament, right? Just 48 verses, right? Testament, right? Just 48 verses, right? Testament, right? Just 48 verses, right? Everybody changes in the book of Jonah Everybody changes in the book of Jonah Everybody changes in the book of Jonah except one person, Jonah. Right? But except one person, Jonah. Right? But except one person, Jonah. Right? But what's what we miss oftent times is the what's what we miss oftent times is the what's what we miss oftent times is the last verse is a question. It's a last verse is a question. It's a last verse is a question. It's a cliffhanger, cliffhanger, cliffhanger, >> right? So, should I not care? These >> right? So, should I not care? These >> right? So, should I not care? These people that don't know their left hand people that don't know their left hand people that don't know their left hand from their right, should I not care? And from their right, should I not care? And from their right, should I not care? And then it says in some translations, "And then it says in some translations, "And then it says in some translations, "And even the cattle, even the cattle, even the cattle, yeah, boom, it's over." yeah, boom, it's over." yeah, boom, it's over." >> Uh, and what I love about how that's >> Uh, and what I love about how that's >> Uh, and what I love about how that's structured is that wasn't just God to structured is that wasn't just God to structured is that wasn't just God to Jonah. We as listeners, our brains have Jonah. We as listeners, our brains have Jonah. We as listeners, our brains have been hijacked at the end of the book been hijacked at the end of the book been hijacked at the end of the book going, going, going, >> "Oh, should God not be gracious >> "Oh, should God not be gracious >> "Oh, should God not be gracious >> to people that I don't think deserve >> to people that I don't think deserve >> to people that I don't think deserve grace?" grace?" grace?" >> All the believes that >> All the believes that >> All the believes that >> it's a cliffhanger. Yeah. How will we >> it's a cliffhanger. Yeah. How will we >> it's a cliffhanger. Yeah. How will we respond? Right. And in some ways, that's respond? Right. And in some ways, that's respond? Right. And in some ways, that's Jesus's model like the the uh the Jesus's model like the the uh the Jesus's model like the the uh the prodigal son, right? We don't know what prodigal son, right? We don't know what prodigal son, right? We don't know what the son did. Did he stay outside or did the son did. Did he stay outside or did the son did. Did he stay outside or did the older brother go inside? um you know the older brother go inside? um you know the older brother go inside? um you know did did he and so I think those did did he and so I think those did did he and so I think those cliffhanger events and we can use those cliffhanger events and we can use those cliffhanger events and we can use those well with questions in our preaching as well with questions in our preaching as well with questions in our preaching as well. So can I ask you two more well. So can I ask you two more well. So can I ask you two more questions? Would that be okay? I don't questions? Would that be okay? I don't questions? Would that be okay? I don't want to take too much time but I'm want to take too much time but I'm want to take too much time but I'm loving hearing about this. So I'm loving hearing about this. So I'm loving hearing about this. So I'm curious. So the podcast curious. So the podcast curious. So the podcast >> what's your dream for it five years from

>> what's your dream for it five years from >> what's your dream for it five years from now? now? now? >> You know that's a great question. Uh >> You know that's a great question. Uh >> You know that's a great question. Uh it's exceeded every expectation I ever it's exceeded every expectation I ever it's exceeded every expectation I ever had of it. My dream is to and and this had of it. My dream is to and and this had of it. My dream is to and and this is like I love Seth Goden's definition is like I love Seth Goden's definition is like I love Seth Goden's definition of uh money in a company and this is of uh money in a company and this is of uh money in a company and this is true for a church, right? Because we can true for a church, right? Because we can true for a church, right? Because we can idolize it or we can villainize it. He idolize it or we can villainize it. He idolize it or we can villainize it. He says profit is just permission to do says profit is just permission to do says profit is just permission to do this again tomorrow. this again tomorrow. this again tomorrow. And I love that definition. It's like, And I love that definition. It's like, And I love that definition. It's like, you know, if you have a positive bank you know, if you have a positive bank you know, if you have a positive bank balance, it's just permission to do this balance, it's just permission to do this balance, it's just permission to do this again tomorrow. And I would love to again tomorrow. And I would love to again tomorrow. And I would love to continue to curate conversations with continue to curate conversations with continue to curate conversations with the most interesting people that I can the most interesting people that I can the most interesting people that I can find or that I know because I know that find or that I know because I know that find or that I know because I know that conversations been lifegiving. Um, one conversations been lifegiving. Um, one conversations been lifegiving. Um, one of the reasons I started this is 30 of the reasons I started this is 30 of the reasons I started this is 30 years ago I didn't have access to any of years ago I didn't have access to any of years ago I didn't have access to any of these guests really and I was always these guests really and I was always these guests really and I was always interested if you could really sit down interested if you could really sit down interested if you could really sit down and have a candid conversation with this and have a candid conversation with this and have a candid conversation with this person, what would they say? And then I person, what would they say? And then I person, what would they say? And then I started speaking at conferences and started speaking at conferences and started speaking at conferences and events and I would meet people in the events and I would meet people in the events and I would meet people in the green room and I'd actually have a green room and I'd actually have a green room and I'd actually have a conversation and sometimes they'd be conversation and sometimes they'd be conversation and sometimes they'd be great conversations. I'm like I wish great conversations. I'm like I wish great conversations. I'm like I wish everybody could hear it. So that mo that everybody could hear it. So that mo that everybody could hear it. So that mo that modus operandi hasn't changed in 11 modus operandi hasn't changed in 11 modus operandi hasn't changed in 11 years. I don't see it changing like as years. I don't see it changing like as years. I don't see it changing like as long as there are people I think long as there are people I think long as there are people I think conversations are going to be conversations are going to be conversations are going to be interesting and as long as there are interesting and as long as there are interesting and as long as there are interesting people. And so I want to interesting people. And so I want to interesting people. And so I want to bring on behalf of the church and on bring on behalf of the church and on bring on behalf of the church and on behalf of my audience the best behalf of my audience the best behalf of my audience the best conversations I possibly can. And this

conversations I possibly can. And this conversations I possibly can. And this never gets old. Like I don't know why it never gets old. Like I don't know why it never gets old. Like I don't know why it hasn't gotten old in 11 years. Lots of hasn't gotten old in 11 years. Lots of hasn't gotten old in 11 years. Lots of things have gotten old in my life. This things have gotten old in my life. This things have gotten old in my life. This has not gotten old. So I'm probably has not gotten old. So I'm probably has not gotten old. So I'm probably going to keep doing it indefinitely. And going to keep doing it indefinitely. And going to keep doing it indefinitely. And I would love to um interview really I would love to um interview really I would love to um interview really interesting people, some well-known, interesting people, some well-known, interesting people, some well-known, some unknown, and bring that to my some unknown, and bring that to my some unknown, and bring that to my audience. So, it's kind of like um like audience. So, it's kind of like um like audience. So, it's kind of like um like an infinite game. an infinite game. an infinite game. >> It's like there's no there's no finish >> It's like there's no there's no finish >> It's like there's no there's no finish line, there's no win, there's no like, line, there's no win, there's no like, line, there's no win, there's no like, oh great, you know, maybe we can level oh great, you know, maybe we can level oh great, you know, maybe we can level up, but um it's an infinite game. up, but um it's an infinite game. up, but um it's an infinite game. >> Yeah. Great. Fantastic. Last one for you >> Yeah. Great. Fantastic. Last one for you >> Yeah. Great. Fantastic. Last one for you here. So, you've been doing this podcast here. So, you've been doing this podcast here. So, you've been doing this podcast for 11 years. How are you different? And for 11 years. How are you different? And for 11 years. How are you different? And you you touched on this a little bit, you you touched on this a little bit, you you touched on this a little bit, but how are you different because of the but how are you different because of the but how are you different because of the guests you've interacted with? And are guests you've interacted with? And are guests you've interacted with? And are there a few guests that have impacted there a few guests that have impacted there a few guests that have impacted you maybe more than others or formed you you maybe more than others or formed you you maybe more than others or formed you and who you are, how you think over the and who you are, how you think over the and who you are, how you think over the last 11 years? Well, a good number have last 11 years? Well, a good number have last 11 years? Well, a good number have become friends and that's a like a become friends and that's a like a become friends and that's a like a wonderful wonderful thing. Like people wonderful wonderful thing. Like people wonderful wonderful thing. Like people that you thought I wonder if we'll ever that you thought I wonder if we'll ever that you thought I wonder if we'll ever land this person have become friends.

land this person have become friends. land this person have become friends. So, I've developed some really good So, I've developed some really good So, I've developed some really good close personal friendships out of out of close personal friendships out of out of close personal friendships out of out of this. And not everybody. We've had like this. And not everybody. We've had like this. And not everybody. We've had like hundreds and hundreds of guests, but hundreds and hundreds of guests, but hundreds and hundreds of guests, but there's been a handful of like really there's been a handful of like really there's been a handful of like really meaningful friendships and a lot of meaningful friendships and a lot of meaningful friendships and a lot of people that are just friendly whenever people that are just friendly whenever people that are just friendly whenever we see each other. You know, Craig Relle we see each other. You know, Craig Relle we see each other. You know, Craig Relle often, he's pretty much on this podcast often, he's pretty much on this podcast often, he's pretty much on this podcast every year, has become a really good every year, has become a really good every year, has become a really good friend. uh we text or you know voice friend. uh we text or you know voice friend. uh we text or you know voice chat pretty much every week, see each chat pretty much every week, see each chat pretty much every week, see each other a few times a year and that's been other a few times a year and that's been other a few times a year and that's been really good. He's been very influential really good. He's been very influential really good. He's been very influential on my life just because I think his on my life just because I think his on my life just because I think his judgment is so solid. I think he's wise judgment is so solid. I think he's wise judgment is so solid. I think he's wise beyond what people even understand from beyond what people even understand from beyond what people even understand from the the the >> the public platform. Seth Goden um very >> the public platform. Seth Goden um very >> the public platform. Seth Goden um very very influential in my thinking. I mean, very influential in my thinking. I mean, very influential in my thinking. I mean, he just dropped stuff that, you know, uh he just dropped stuff that, you know, uh he just dropped stuff that, you know, uh something he had in his last couple of something he had in his last couple of something he had in his last couple of books about status and affiliation, just books about status and affiliation, just books about status and affiliation, just everything's about status, everything's everything's about status, everything's everything's about status, everything's about affiliation. And when you put that about affiliation. And when you put that about affiliation. And when you put that filter on everything, including church filter on everything, including church filter on everything, including church world, it's terrifying and fascinating world, it's terrifying and fascinating world, it's terrifying and fascinating at the same time. So, uh those are a at the same time. So, uh those are a at the same time. So, uh those are a couple and I've just really enjoyed the couple and I've just really enjoyed the couple and I've just really enjoyed the friendship, the connection, the ideas.

friendship, the connection, the ideas. friendship, the connection, the ideas. You know, I wrote to another guest. I You know, I wrote to another guest. I You know, I wrote to another guest. I don't want to name it, but he came on don't want to name it, but he came on don't want to name it, but he came on and I think it was he's got like four and I think it was he's got like four and I think it was he's got like four podcasts going and one of the top podcasts going and one of the top podcasts going and one of the top thinkers in the world. I happen to have thinkers in the world. I happen to have thinkers in the world. I happen to have his personal email. We haven't connected his personal email. We haven't connected his personal email. We haven't connected since he was on the show, but it was an since he was on the show, but it was an since he was on the show, but it was an easy ask to say, "Hey, do you want to easy ask to say, "Hey, do you want to easy ask to say, "Hey, do you want to come back?" And, you know, we had a come back?" And, you know, we had a come back?" And, you know, we had a really meaningful personal interaction. really meaningful personal interaction. really meaningful personal interaction. So, that kind of like that's still a So, that kind of like that's still a So, that kind of like that's still a dream to me. Like, how did this become dream to me. Like, how did this become dream to me. Like, how did this become my life? How do I get to do this? And my life? How do I get to do this? And my life? How do I get to do this? And I'm really blown away. like I'm really blown away. like I'm really blown away. like >> it's kind of cool. And and by naming >> it's kind of cool. And and by naming >> it's kind of cool. And and by naming two, I'm excluding two, I'm excluding two, I'm excluding 20 or 30 others, but that would be an 20 or 30 others, but that would be an 20 or 30 others, but that would be an example of of what it's brought and uh example of of what it's brought and uh example of of what it's brought and uh and I'm just really grateful for that. and I'm just really grateful for that. and I'm just really grateful for that. So, selfishly, that is good for my life. So, selfishly, that is good for my life. So, selfishly, that is good for my life. Uh but I hope it's also good for my Uh but I hope it's also good for my Uh but I hope it's also good for my audience and being able to have that audience and being able to have that audience and being able to have that kind of access to some of the top kind of access to some of the top kind of access to some of the top thinkers in the world today. thinkers in the world today. thinkers in the world today. >> Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing and thank >> Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing and thank >> Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing and thank you for letting me uh switch the table you for letting me uh switch the table you for letting me uh switch the table or turn the tables here and uh slap down or turn the tables here and uh slap down or turn the tables here and uh slap down that reverse UNO card. So, um yeah, I I that reverse UNO card. So, um yeah, I I that reverse UNO card. So, um yeah, I I learned a lot and I'm sure your learned a lot and I'm sure your learned a lot and I'm sure your listeners did as well. So, listeners did as well. So, listeners did as well. So, >> well, I got to tell you that >> well, I got to tell you that >> well, I got to tell you that >> I get accused of breaking book budgets >> I get accused of breaking book budgets >> I get accused of breaking book budgets all the time. So, I want to apologize all the time. So, I want to apologize all the time. So, I want to apologize one more time to my audience. Highly one more time to my audience. Highly one more time to my audience. Highly recommend you pick up a copy. Maybe, you recommend you pick up a copy. Maybe, you recommend you pick up a copy. Maybe, you know, it's almost the new year, so you know, it's almost the new year, so you know, it's almost the new year, so you can get it in next year's budget, okay?

can get it in next year's budget, okay? can get it in next year's budget, okay? but it's called the art of asking better but it's called the art of asking better but it's called the art of asking better questions, pursuing stronger questions, pursuing stronger questions, pursuing stronger relationships, healthier leadership, and relationships, healthier leadership, and relationships, healthier leadership, and deeper faith. JR Briggs is the author. deeper faith. JR Briggs is the author. deeper faith. JR Briggs is the author. It's available everywhere. I've got a It's available everywhere. I've got a It's available everywhere. I've got a copy for my library. And I the reason copy for my library. And I the reason copy for my library. And I the reason I'm kind of harping on this, not to I'm kind of harping on this, not to I'm kind of harping on this, not to break people's book budget, but just to break people's book budget, but just to break people's book budget, but just to say I think we would be better human say I think we would be better human say I think we would be better human beings. And I think in this age of AI, beings. And I think in this age of AI, beings. And I think in this age of AI, which is my latest project, which is my latest project, which is my latest project, human connections are more important human connections are more important human connections are more important than ever. and asking questions, great than ever. and asking questions, great than ever. and asking questions, great questions that really elicit the image questions that really elicit the image questions that really elicit the image of God and God's activity in other of God and God's activity in other of God and God's activity in other people's lives is going to become even people's lives is going to become even people's lives is going to become even more important and it is in danger of more important and it is in danger of more important and it is in danger of being a lost art. You could have called being a lost art. You could have called being a lost art. You could have called it the lost art of asking better it the lost art of asking better it the lost art of asking better questions. Did you with that? questions. Did you with that? questions. Did you with that? >> There's a yes no answer. Okay, so bad >> There's a yes no answer. Okay, so bad >> There's a yes no answer. Okay, so bad question. [laughter] question. [laughter] question. [laughter] [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] >> No, we we toyed with that. Um and uh and >> No, we we toyed with that. Um and uh and >> No, we we toyed with that. Um and uh and it was a little harder than we thought. it was a little harder than we thought. it was a little harder than we thought. Originally we thought questionable Originally we thought questionable Originally we thought questionable influence, but then we thought uh you influence, but then we thought uh you influence, but then we thought uh you know may maybe people wouldn't know may maybe people wouldn't know may maybe people wouldn't understand the double antandre there. understand the double antandre there. understand the double antandre there. So, um, yeah, we decided to just keep it So, um, yeah, we decided to just keep it So, um, yeah, we decided to just keep it with what it is, the the art of asking with what it is, the the art of asking with what it is, the the art of asking better questions. better questions. better questions. >> What is it? Says leaders leaders who, >> What is it? Says leaders leaders who, >> What is it? Says leaders leaders who, uh, refuse to ask questions will end up uh, refuse to ask questions will end up uh, refuse to ask questions will end up doing questionable things.

doing questionable things. doing questionable things. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Sorry, John, if I mangled That's another >> Sorry, John, if I mangled That's another >> Sorry, John, if I mangled That's another guy, too, that I've really gotten to guy, too, that I've really gotten to guy, too, that I've really gotten to know very, very well over uh the last uh know very, very well over uh the last uh know very, very well over uh the last uh 10 years and so grateful for that. So, 10 years and so grateful for that. So, 10 years and so grateful for that. So, this is a this is a real joy for me and this is a this is a real joy for me and this is a this is a real joy for me and it's been a joy. Thanks for the book. it's been a joy. Thanks for the book. it's been a joy. Thanks for the book. Thanks for your work and thanks for the Thanks for your work and thanks for the Thanks for your work and thanks for the conversations today, J.R. conversations today, J.R. conversations today, J.R. >> Well, thanks so much and you've been >> Well, thanks so much and you've been >> Well, thanks so much and you've been very kind and uh yeah, really grateful very kind and uh yeah, really grateful very kind and uh yeah, really grateful for this opportunity. Thanks, Carrie.