Necessary Transformation in the Local Church | Dr. Gavin Adams

hey welcome to the missional marketing hey welcome to the missional marketing church growth interviews podcast church growth interviews podcast church growth interviews podcast i'm bart blair a coach i'm bart blair a coach i'm bart blair a coach for missional marketing sitting on one for missional marketing sitting on one for missional marketing sitting on one side of the screen and on the other side side of the screen and on the other side side of the screen and on the other side of the screen is my friend of the screen is my friend of the screen is my friend and ministry partner jason hamrock jason and ministry partner jason hamrock jason and ministry partner jason hamrock jason good day to you good day to you good day to you good day to you bart how are you doing good day to you bart how are you doing good day to you bart how are you doing you know what i'm doing i'm doing well you know what i'm doing i'm doing well you know what i'm doing i'm doing well uh it's been a good week uh it's been a good week uh it's been a good week lots of opportunity to talk to a lot of lots of opportunity to talk to a lot of lots of opportunity to talk to a lot of churches i was traveling last week which churches i was traveling last week which churches i was traveling last week which was kind of was kind of was kind of kind of nice after you know kind of a kind of nice after you know kind of a kind of nice after you know kind of a year of covid year of covid year of covid um not not doing a whole lot of travel um not not doing a whole lot of travel um not not doing a whole lot of travel and uh i was out on the east coast out and uh i was out on the east coast out and uh i was out on the east coast out in philadelphia in that area for a few in philadelphia in that area for a few in philadelphia in that area for a few days last week doing some work and days last week doing some work and days last week doing some work and working with some churches there and working with some churches there and working with some churches there and now i'm back in in sunny hot muggy now i'm back in in sunny hot muggy now i'm back in in sunny hot muggy dallas and uh sitting at my desk yeah dallas and uh sitting at my desk yeah dallas and uh sitting at my desk yeah it's good i'm good it's good i'm good it's good i'm good good good yeah it's i've been on the good good yeah it's i've been on the good good yeah it's i've been on the road a little bit as well road a little bit as well road a little bit as well it's been uh fun i got to see you a it's been uh fun i got to see you a it's been uh fun i got to see you a couple weeks ago couple weeks ago couple weeks ago and uh airports are filling up oh that's and uh airports are filling up oh that's and uh airports are filling up oh that's always interesting but uh it's good to always interesting but uh it's good to always interesting but uh it's good to get out and see churches and get out and see churches and get out and see churches and and hear what's going on in the life of and hear what's going on in the life of and hear what's going on in the life of uh individual churches that we get to uh individual churches that we get to uh individual churches that we get to partner with and partner with and partner with and and how they're experiencing growth and and how they're experiencing growth and and how they're experiencing growth and new growth and then the challenges to new growth and then the challenges to new growth and then the challenges to bring people back and bring people back and bring people back and you know every church is in a different you know every church is in a different you know every church is in a different position a different season position a different season position a different season uh all of us are coming out of one uh all of us are coming out of one uh all of us are coming out of one season season season but uh it is certainly going to be but uh it is certainly going to be but uh it is certainly going to be interesting to see how things are gonna interesting to see how things are gonna interesting to see how things are gonna unfold moving forward unfold moving forward unfold moving forward yeah i mean obviously you know there are yeah i mean obviously you know there are yeah i mean obviously you know there are some churches that uh some churches that uh some churches that uh are experiencing um interesting and new

are experiencing um interesting and new are experiencing um interesting and new and different growth and different growth and different growth uh you know stretching themselves to try uh you know stretching themselves to try uh you know stretching themselves to try new and different things of ministry and new and different things of ministry and new and different things of ministry and there's some churches that are really there's some churches that are really there's some churches that are really struggling and we've had some struggling and we've had some struggling and we've had some conversations conversations conversations with those churches as well that are with those churches as well that are with those churches as well that are just scratching their heads and trying just scratching their heads and trying just scratching their heads and trying to figure out how to to figure out how to to figure out how to um regain momentum or you know figure um regain momentum or you know figure um regain momentum or you know figure out out out what is next for them um i'm just what is next for them um i'm just what is next for them um i'm just i'm just uh i'm excited to see i'm just uh i'm excited to see i'm just uh i'm excited to see so many churches um willing to try new so many churches um willing to try new so many churches um willing to try new things and take things and take things and take risks and really you know for the sake risks and really you know for the sake risks and really you know for the sake of the of the gospel of the of the gospel of the of the gospel um realizing that you know um realizing that you know um realizing that you know i'm not going to use the term new normal i'm not going to use the term new normal i'm not going to use the term new normal i just said it uh i just said it uh i just said it uh nothing is normal and nothing will ever nothing is normal and nothing will ever nothing is normal and nothing will ever be normal uh things change at a be normal uh things change at a be normal uh things change at a lightning pace i was thinking about this lightning pace i was thinking about this lightning pace i was thinking about this you know we just uh recorded this you know we just uh recorded this you know we just uh recorded this interview with gavin adams which we're interview with gavin adams which we're interview with gavin adams which we're going to introduce here in just a second going to introduce here in just a second going to introduce here in just a second but one of the things that he was but one of the things that he was but one of the things that he was talking about talking about talking about um is the use of the internet and and he um is the use of the internet and and he um is the use of the internet and and he kind of unpacks kind of unpacks kind of unpacks uh digital church for us a little bit uh digital church for us a little bit uh digital church for us a little bit and some of his opinions and and some of his opinions and and some of his opinions and one of the things that i thought about one of the things that i thought about one of the things that i thought about was how churches have to adapt was how churches have to adapt was how churches have to adapt continuously to technology and what most continuously to technology and what most continuously to technology and what most of us take for granted of us take for granted of us take for granted is that a long time ago churches didn't is that a long time ago churches didn't is that a long time ago churches didn't have microphones and sound systems have microphones and sound systems have microphones and sound systems um have we talking about this in a um have we talking about this in a um have we talking about this in a podcast i talked about this a lot podcast i talked about this a lot podcast i talked about this a lot we didn't talk about this you know i we didn't talk about this you know i we didn't talk about this you know i don't know if this is truth or legend don't know if this is truth or legend don't know if this is truth or legend but i think there was a time that i've but i think there was a time that i've but i think there was a time that i've heard this like i said i don't know if heard this like i said i don't know if heard this like i said i don't know if it's truth or legend it's truth or legend it's truth or legend that charles spurgeon the great preacher that charles spurgeon the great preacher that charles spurgeon the great preacher used to actually measure men's chest used to actually measure men's chest used to actually measure men's chest cavities the bigger the chest cavity the

cavities the bigger the chest cavity the cavities the bigger the chest cavity the better the preacher he would be because better the preacher he would be because better the preacher he would be because he could actually make his voice he could actually make his voice he could actually make his voice carry further right like that i don't carry further right like that i don't carry further right like that i don't know if that's actually true or if it's know if that's actually true or if it's know if that's actually true or if it's just legend just legend just legend it's interesting to think about but but it's interesting to think about but but it's interesting to think about but but there you know there came a time where a there you know there came a time where a there you know there came a time where a little pipsqueak guy with a skinny little pipsqueak guy with a skinny little pipsqueak guy with a skinny little chest could just get a microphone little chest could just get a microphone little chest could just get a microphone and could fill a big room with his and could fill a big room with his and could fill a big room with his preaching with his sermon and then preaching with his sermon and then preaching with his sermon and then recording them right they started recording them right they started recording them right they started recording sermons so people could play recording sermons so people could play recording sermons so people could play them them them back and you know now back and you know now back and you know now technology is taking us to some really technology is taking us to some really technology is taking us to some really new and unique and different places as new and unique and different places as new and unique and different places as it relates to our ability to communicate it relates to our ability to communicate it relates to our ability to communicate the gospel and the gospel and the gospel and and help more and more people find jesus and help more and more people find jesus and help more and more people find jesus around the globe and it's just neat around the globe and it's just neat around the globe and it's just neat to have the seat that we have see what to have the seat that we have see what to have the seat that we have see what churches are doing to do that churches are doing to do that churches are doing to do that yeah and our guest today boy this guy yeah and our guest today boy this guy yeah and our guest today boy this guy is is a leader and he's uh he's been in is is a leader and he's uh he's been in is is a leader and he's uh he's been in this space and he's gonna this space and he's gonna this space and he's gonna talk about some stuff that is going to talk about some stuff that is going to talk about some stuff that is going to really fascinate you really fascinate you really fascinate you listeners and um i'm really excited for listeners and um i'm really excited for listeners and um i'm really excited for you to hear from him you to hear from him you to hear from him his name is gavin adams and uh gadam is his name is gavin adams and uh gadam is his name is gavin adams and uh gadam is the he's a coach and he's the lead the he's a coach and he's the lead the he's a coach and he's the lead pastor at woodstock city church pastor at woodstock city church pastor at woodstock city church it's a north point campus um now adam it's a north point campus um now adam it's a north point campus um now adam our gavin is our gavin is our gavin is in transition and so he's going to speak in transition and so he's going to speak in transition and so he's going to speak into that but into that but into that but just a little bit he talks he wrote a just a little bit he talks he wrote a just a little bit he talks he wrote a blog post recently called blog post recently called blog post recently called two scary reasons church people are not two scary reasons church people are not two scary reasons church people are not coming back to church coming back to church coming back to church and what he has to say with that is and what he has to say with that is and what he has to say with that is going to really impact you and i cannot going to really impact you and i cannot going to really impact you and i cannot wait for you wait for you wait for you to hear about that yeah let's play that to hear about that yeah let's play that to hear about that yeah let's play that right now dr gavin

right now dr gavin right now dr gavin adams you weren't expecting that were adams you weren't expecting that were adams you weren't expecting that were you no that's a doctor you no that's a doctor you no that's a doctor weird a weird side a lot i tell people weird a weird side a lot i tell people weird a weird side a lot i tell people i'm the kind of doctor who really can't i'm the kind of doctor who really can't i'm the kind of doctor who really can't help with your rash or anything help with your rash or anything help with your rash or anything important but important but important but well dr gavin adams thanks for being on well dr gavin adams thanks for being on well dr gavin adams thanks for being on our show today our show today our show today we expect that you're going to be able we expect that you're going to be able we expect that you're going to be able to help us with to help us with to help us with some things we really appreciate some things we really appreciate some things we really appreciate appreciate you taking the time to appreciate you taking the time to appreciate you taking the time to hang out with us today well you're very hang out with us today well you're very hang out with us today well you're very welcome thanks for having me welcome thanks for having me welcome thanks for having me hey so gavin why don't we just kick hey so gavin why don't we just kick hey so gavin why don't we just kick things off by having you share a little things off by having you share a little things off by having you share a little bit of bit of bit of uh your ministry journey you could kind uh your ministry journey you could kind uh your ministry journey you could kind of talk about you know you start with of talk about you know you start with of talk about you know you start with where you are now and what led you to where you are now and what led you to where you are now and what led you to that place or you can that place or you can that place or you can wind the clock back and give us the give wind the clock back and give us the give wind the clock back and give us the give give us the full details of your story give us the full details of your story give us the full details of your story and how you ended up in ministry and and how you ended up in ministry and and how you ended up in ministry and where you are today where you are today where you are today yeah i won't give you the full details yeah i won't give you the full details yeah i won't give you the full details we don't have enough time i'll give you we don't have enough time i'll give you we don't have enough time i'll give you a quick synopsis how's that um a quick synopsis how's that um a quick synopsis how's that um i i grew up in the church i became a i i grew up in the church i became a i i grew up in the church i became a believer at the age of seven believer at the age of seven believer at the age of seven and uh wonderful family uh you know we and uh wonderful family uh you know we and uh wonderful family uh you know we were in a baptist church when i was a were in a baptist church when i was a were in a baptist church when i was a kid we were there a lot you know sunday kid we were there a lot you know sunday kid we were there a lot you know sunday morning sunday night wednesday night the morning sunday night wednesday night the morning sunday night wednesday night the whole deal whole deal whole deal i did visitation twice on monday was i did visitation twice on monday was i did visitation twice on monday was terrible at it so i quit that but terrible at it so i quit that but terrible at it so i quit that but church is kind of in my dna at the same church is kind of in my dna at the same church is kind of in my dna at the same time i really didn't have a lot of great time i really didn't have a lot of great time i really didn't have a lot of great church experiences church experiences church experiences as a kid and through my teenage years as a kid and through my teenage years as a kid and through my teenage years and so and so and so the idea of working at a church was the idea of working at a church was the idea of working at a church was never on my radar never on my radar never on my radar i went to college studied marketing i i went to college studied marketing i i went to college studied marketing i got an mba in marketing got an mba in marketing got an mba in marketing worked in a consulting kind of worked in a consulting kind of worked in a consulting kind of organization for 10 years and ran my own organization for 10 years and ran my own organization for 10 years and ran my own agency consulting agency agency consulting agency agency consulting agency primarily helping marketplace leaders primarily helping marketplace leaders primarily helping marketplace leaders uh think through transformation brand uh

uh think through transformation brand uh uh think through transformation brand uh transformation product development a transformation product development a transformation product development a bunch of strategy analysis things like bunch of strategy analysis things like bunch of strategy analysis things like that that that meanwhile i'm volunteering at a local meanwhile i'm volunteering at a local meanwhile i'm volunteering at a local church and i can't quit doing it church and i can't quit doing it church and i can't quit doing it and i'm working in middle school and i'm working in middle school and i'm working in middle school ministry and having so much fun ministry and having so much fun ministry and having so much fun i find myself outsourcing almost all of i find myself outsourcing almost all of i find myself outsourcing almost all of my business because my business because my business because i didn't want to do that i wanted to i didn't want to do that i wanted to i didn't want to do that i wanted to work in ministry work in ministry work in ministry but i wasn't even sure a business guy but i wasn't even sure a business guy but i wasn't even sure a business guy could work in ministry so could work in ministry so could work in ministry so it was a really interesting kind of tug it was a really interesting kind of tug it was a really interesting kind of tug of war in my spiritual heart for a while of war in my spiritual heart for a while of war in my spiritual heart for a while but but but god kind of led me out of the god kind of led me out of the god kind of led me out of the marketplace almost 15 years ago now marketplace almost 15 years ago now marketplace almost 15 years ago now in into ministry and so i got to help in into ministry and so i got to help in into ministry and so i got to help plant a church plant a church plant a church um almost like a kind of a family um almost like a kind of a family um almost like a kind of a family ministry director role i was over ministry director role i was over ministry director role i was over birth through high school at a church birth through high school at a church birth through high school at a church plant um i got to do that for a few plant um i got to do that for a few plant um i got to do that for a few years and then years and then years and then three years in um had an opportunity to three years in um had an opportunity to three years in um had an opportunity to come and become a lead pastor of a come and become a lead pastor of a come and become a lead pastor of a church that's the one i'm at right now church that's the one i'm at right now church that's the one i'm at right now um it's called woodstock city church uh um it's called woodstock city church uh um it's called woodstock city church uh it was called watermark it was called watermark it was called watermark church back in the day and 13 years ago church back in the day and 13 years ago church back in the day and 13 years ago uh it was a partnership church of north uh it was a partnership church of north uh it was a partnership church of north point ministries and andy stanley we point ministries and andy stanley we point ministries and andy stanley we were were were a partner church so independent in a partner church so independent in a partner church so independent in leadership and finances leadership and finances leadership and finances uh but kind of following the same uh but kind of following the same uh but kind of following the same ministry model and approach and so ministry model and approach and so ministry model and approach and so uh and ironically it was a church uh and ironically it was a church uh and ironically it was a church revitalization effort it was a dying revitalization effort it was a dying revitalization effort it was a dying church church church i was gonna be the third lead pastor in i was gonna be the third lead pastor in i was gonna be the third lead pastor in the first three years and so the first three years and so the first three years and so my first sunday uh towards the end of my first sunday uh towards the end of my first sunday uh towards the end of 2008 my first sunday i walked out we had 2008 my first sunday i walked out we had 2008 my first sunday i walked out we had it was a few hundred people probably it was a few hundred people probably it was a few hundred people probably across the entire church you know adults across the entire church you know adults across the entire church you know adults kids all included we had four hundred kids all included we had four hundred kids all included we had four hundred dollars in the bank my very first sunday dollars in the bank my very first sunday dollars in the bank my very first sunday was very easy to remember and uh but got

was very easy to remember and uh but got was very easy to remember and uh but got to watch god do some really cool things to watch god do some really cool things to watch god do some really cool things through that through that through that and a few i guess two years in we and a few i guess two years in we and a few i guess two years in we transitioned from being a partnership transitioned from being a partnership transitioned from being a partnership church to becoming a campus location church to becoming a campus location church to becoming a campus location so for the last decade we've been a so for the last decade we've been a so for the last decade we've been a campus location of north point campus location of north point campus location of north point ministries ministries ministries uh and of course now you know things are uh and of course now you know things are uh and of course now you know things are very different uh coming out of the very different uh coming out of the very different uh coming out of the pandemic pandemic pandemic but uh right before the pandemic we had but uh right before the pandemic we had but uh right before the pandemic we had about 8 000 people coming uh on a sunday about 8 000 people coming uh on a sunday about 8 000 people coming uh on a sunday about 65 staff members um i'll tell you about 65 staff members um i'll tell you about 65 staff members um i'll tell you that not because it's a big deal but that not because it's a big deal but that not because it's a big deal but just kind of watching our progress i just kind of watching our progress i just kind of watching our progress i feel like i've been positioned through feel like i've been positioned through feel like i've been positioned through some really unique experiences as a some really unique experiences as a some really unique experiences as a church leader church leader church leader being a point leader in a church plant being a point leader in a church plant being a point leader in a church plant being a revitalization pastor being a revitalization pastor being a revitalization pastor uh being a a you know a pastor of a uh being a a you know a pastor of a uh being a a you know a pastor of a rapidly growing church but we're also rapidly growing church but we're also rapidly growing church but we're also portable portable portable back then and so we were full set up and back then and so we were full set up and back then and so we were full set up and tear down the whole good you know nine tear down the whole good you know nine tear down the whole good you know nine yards yards yards to growing into a much larger church to growing into a much larger church to growing into a much larger church where we get to be a part of where we get to be a part of where we get to be a part of a campus a very complex multi-site a campus a very complex multi-site a campus a very complex multi-site organization organization organization of you know tens of thousands of people of you know tens of thousands of people of you know tens of thousands of people across our churches and sitting on the across our churches and sitting on the across our churches and sitting on the leadership team leadership team leadership team for that so i don't know everything for that so i don't know everything for that so i don't know everything about church for sure but i've got to about church for sure but i've got to about church for sure but i've got to experience a lot of different experience a lot of different experience a lot of different varieties of it which certainly has been varieties of it which certainly has been varieties of it which certainly has been helpful helpful helpful so when you jumped in 15 years ago you so when you jumped in 15 years ago you so when you jumped in 15 years ago you helped helped helped plant and started church um plant and started church um plant and started church um just tell us you you're pre-covened you just tell us you you're pre-covened you just tell us you you're pre-covened you said you're around 8 000 said you're around 8 000 said you're around 8 000 or so on a weekend was there any or so on a weekend was there any or so on a weekend was there any particular particular particular season in this last 15 years where you season in this last 15 years where you season in this last 15 years where you really saw like significant substantial really saw like significant substantial really saw like significant substantial growth we can you can you point to any growth we can you can you point to any growth we can you can you point to any particular season or was it particular season or was it

particular season or was it just slow and steady well yeah it's just slow and steady well yeah it's just slow and steady well yeah it's never slow if you're going from a church never slow if you're going from a church never slow if you're going from a church plant to eight thousand but plant to eight thousand but plant to eight thousand but you know unless you started with a core you know unless you started with a core you know unless you started with a core team of seven thousand right team of seven thousand right team of seven thousand right to eight thousand tell me you did you to eight thousand tell me you did you to eight thousand tell me you did you did better than that yeah no we we did better than that yeah no we we did better than that yeah no we we started with a couple of hundred started with a couple of hundred started with a couple of hundred at our church but you know the to your at our church but you know the to your at our church but you know the to your point yes the whole thing has been a point yes the whole thing has been a point yes the whole thing has been a season of relatively rapid growth but it season of relatively rapid growth but it season of relatively rapid growth but it vasculates right there's vasculates right there's vasculates right there's seasons where things slow down there's seasons where things slow down there's seasons where things slow down there's seasons where things speed up um seasons where things speed up um seasons where things speed up um you know for us it's very cyclical in you know for us it's very cyclical in you know for us it's very cyclical in church anyway for us school beginning church anyway for us school beginning church anyway for us school beginning uh is always a peak and then of course uh is always a peak and then of course uh is always a peak and then of course january you know january you know january you know um so summers were lulls but we um so summers were lulls but we um so summers were lulls but we constantly kind of saw this ebb and flow constantly kind of saw this ebb and flow constantly kind of saw this ebb and flow up and to the right mostly through um up and to the right mostly through um up and to the right mostly through um organic work internally you know i know organic work internally you know i know organic work internally you know i know that you guys work a lot with marketing that you guys work a lot with marketing that you guys work a lot with marketing and things of that nature and things of that nature and things of that nature just that gorilla marketing of invested just that gorilla marketing of invested just that gorilla marketing of invested invite people investing in relationships invite people investing in relationships invite people investing in relationships of you know people in their community of you know people in their community of you know people in their community uh ball fields neighborhoods and so uh ball fields neighborhoods and so uh ball fields neighborhoods and so forth and then inviting them when the forth and then inviting them when the forth and then inviting them when the time was right to experience something time was right to experience something time was right to experience something at our church at our church at our church knowing that we also created an knowing that we also created an knowing that we also created an experience at our church that was ready experience at our church that was ready experience at our church that was ready and and and and uh prepared for those kind of and uh prepared for those kind of and uh prepared for those kind of unchurched d unchurched d unchurched d church guests every week and so yeah to church guests every week and so yeah to church guests every week and so yeah to go from where we were to where we are go from where we were to where we are go from where we were to where we are um there really isn't a plateaued season um there really isn't a plateaued season um there really isn't a plateaued season of that of that of that um outside of just the cyclical nature um outside of just the cyclical nature um outside of just the cyclical nature of church right of church right of church right but at the same time i would never but at the same time i would never but at the same time i would never suggest i mean leaders always want to suggest i mean leaders always want to suggest i mean leaders always want to grow grow grow that's there's also unsustainable pace that's there's also unsustainable pace that's there's also unsustainable pace growth and growth and growth and i don't know that that kind of pace is i don't know that that kind of pace is i don't know that that kind of pace is something we should actually pray for i something we should actually pray for i something we should actually pray for i mean it sent me to counseling and mean it sent me to counseling and mean it sent me to counseling and i just take a sabbatical because i was i just take a sabbatical because i was i just take a sabbatical because i was about to quit it was so exhausting i was

about to quit it was so exhausting i was about to quit it was so exhausting i was just overwhelmed by the whole thing just overwhelmed by the whole thing just overwhelmed by the whole thing about halfway through so now i will say about halfway through so now i will say about halfway through so now i will say one thing one thing one thing the the the biggest leap forward was the the the biggest leap forward was the the the biggest leap forward was when we moved from a portable facility when we moved from a portable facility when we moved from a portable facility to our first permanent location i mean to our first permanent location i mean to our first permanent location i mean we were um we were um we were um right at about 5 000 people in a right at about 5 000 people in a right at about 5 000 people in a portable facility portable facility portable facility where we had four parking lots we're where we had four parking lots we're where we had four parking lots we're shuttling people in from all i mean it shuttling people in from all i mean it shuttling people in from all i mean it was impossible to attend our church was impossible to attend our church was impossible to attend our church but that also gave it incredible energy but that also gave it incredible energy but that also gave it incredible energy because it was so because it was so because it was so difficult there was something about that difficult there was something about that difficult there was something about that that made it better that made it better that made it better so of course we moved into our first so of course we moved into our first so of course we moved into our first permanent facility and we you know you permanent facility and we you know you permanent facility and we you know you have a bunch of lookie-loos the first have a bunch of lookie-loos the first have a bunch of lookie-loos the first you know month and so you know month and so you know month and so you know we went to about ten thousand you know we went to about ten thousand you know we went to about ten thousand settled back at about settled back at about settled back at about seven to eight thousand uh consistently seven to eight thousand uh consistently seven to eight thousand uh consistently but but but it became a lot easier and it became a lot easier and it became a lot easier and just being in our own building it lost just being in our own building it lost just being in our own building it lost some of the energy some of the energy some of the energy and so i tell our our friends that are and so i tell our our friends that are and so i tell our our friends that are in you know kind of this portable church in you know kind of this portable church in you know kind of this portable church world all the time i'm like world all the time i'm like world all the time i'm like hey don't don't wish that away because hey don't don't wish that away because hey don't don't wish that away because there's some things about it that there's some things about it that there's some things about it that provide provide provide energy you will never have again outside energy you will never have again outside energy you will never have again outside of that of that of that tenacity and it takes all of us to pull tenacity and it takes all of us to pull tenacity and it takes all of us to pull it off kind of kind of emotion it off kind of kind of emotion it off kind of kind of emotion so yeah but there was some leaps forward so yeah but there was some leaps forward so yeah but there was some leaps forward in those things but also you lose some in those things but also you lose some in those things but also you lose some things in that kind of growth things in that kind of growth things in that kind of growth do you think that um so that that's do you think that um so that that's do you think that um so that that's tremendous growth tremendous growth tremendous growth you know and i think every pastor would you know and i think every pastor would you know and i think every pastor would love to see how you know reaching more love to see how you know reaching more love to see how you know reaching more and more and more people and more and more people and more and more people and and seeing life change so and and seeing life change so and and seeing life change so that happened obviously before covid that happened obviously before covid that happened obviously before covid right so you had the season of growth right so you had the season of growth right so you had the season of growth and then and then and then this last season do you think that

this last season do you think that this last season do you think that uh churches need to have a new model uh churches need to have a new model uh churches need to have a new model moving forward or do you think moving forward or do you think moving forward or do you think will that model still work no i don't will that model still work no i don't will that model still work no i don't think any of those pre-covered models think any of those pre-covered models think any of those pre-covered models are going to work are going to work are going to work i think that they will work um to some i think that they will work um to some i think that they will work um to some extent right i mean that some of them extent right i mean that some of them extent right i mean that some of them can be tweaked and they can still work can be tweaked and they can still work can be tweaked and they can still work some of them need to be completely some of them need to be completely some of them need to be completely transformed and made completely transformed and made completely transformed and made completely different for them to work different for them to work different for them to work it's almost like um it's almost like a it's almost like um it's almost like a it's almost like um it's almost like a church model that was church model that was church model that was initiated before the internet and then initiated before the internet and then initiated before the internet and then the internet arrives and you keep the internet arrives and you keep the internet arrives and you keep running the same playbook you can running the same playbook you can running the same playbook you can the internet changed everything for the internet changed everything for the internet changed everything for everybody right i think the pandemic is everybody right i think the pandemic is everybody right i think the pandemic is the same way the same way the same way i think that the pandemic created i think that the pandemic created i think that the pandemic created i mean it didn't actually create any new i mean it didn't actually create any new i mean it didn't actually create any new trends necessarily but it trends necessarily but it trends necessarily but it i mean crises always reveal and i mean crises always reveal and i mean crises always reveal and accelerate it always does that accelerate it always does that accelerate it always does that and so what i think most of us as church and so what i think most of us as church and so what i think most of us as church leaders were seeing leaders were seeing leaders were seeing in 2017 18 and 19 the pandemic in 2017 18 and 19 the pandemic in 2017 18 and 19 the pandemic just sped it up accelerated it by maybe just sped it up accelerated it by maybe just sped it up accelerated it by maybe five or five or five or ten years which means a lot of us were ten years which means a lot of us were ten years which means a lot of us were sensing our models weren't working as sensing our models weren't working as sensing our models weren't working as well well well and then the pandemic proved that they and then the pandemic proved that they and then the pandemic proved that they weren't working and we weren't working and we weren't working and we have to adjust them sometimes have to adjust them sometimes have to adjust them sometimes dramatically so dramatically so dramatically so yeah so if we're um if we're still yeah so if we're um if we're still yeah so if we're um if we're still coming out of covet and it's it's coming out of covet and it's it's coming out of covet and it's it's revealing revealing revealing what's what that next chapter is like what's what that next chapter is like what's what that next chapter is like you know before the internet you know before the internet you know before the internet we didn't know right here comes the we didn't know right here comes the we didn't know right here comes the internet we're like huh internet we're like huh internet we're like huh maybe this could work and that you know maybe this could work and that you know maybe this could work and that you know yours go on and you're just improving yours go on and you're just improving yours go on and you're just improving this thing

this thing this thing is this the same like we're coming out is this the same like we're coming out is this the same like we're coming out of kovid right and so of kovid right and so of kovid right and so it's being revealed to us i talked to so it's being revealed to us i talked to so it's being revealed to us i talked to so many churches that have a new camp many churches that have a new camp many churches that have a new camp online campus online pastor it's a new online campus online pastor it's a new online campus online pastor it's a new campus it's called online campus it's called online campus it's called online but they really have no idea they're but they really have no idea they're but they really have no idea they're like we're still trying to define this like we're still trying to define this like we're still trying to define this yes do you what have you learned as a yes do you what have you learned as a yes do you what have you learned as a leader leader leader uh where this might be revealed for for uh where this might be revealed for for uh where this might be revealed for for churches moving forward churches moving forward churches moving forward well let me let me clarify that word well let me let me clarify that word well let me let me clarify that word revealed i think it's really dangerous revealed i think it's really dangerous revealed i think it's really dangerous when any leader prognosticates exactly when any leader prognosticates exactly when any leader prognosticates exactly what the future's going to hold because what the future's going to hold because what the future's going to hold because we just don't know we just don't know we just don't know i mean the very first book i read in my i mean the very first book i read in my i mean the very first book i read in my mba program was a great i loved mba program was a great i loved mba program was a great i loved the book it was called why people buy the book it was called why people buy the book it was called why people buy why we buy why we buy why we buy and it was a buyer behavior book but in and it was a buyer behavior book but in and it was a buyer behavior book but in the book the book the book the author says and authors and bloggers the author says and authors and bloggers the author says and authors and bloggers we all have to have this thing to talk we all have to have this thing to talk we all have to have this thing to talk about as if we're experts we have to about as if we're experts we have to about as if we're experts we have to talk that way talk that way talk that way um the author said um um the author said um um the author said um [Music] [Music] [Music] online shopping will be a thing but it online shopping will be a thing but it online shopping will be a thing but it will never replace retail and now we look back and we think wow and now we look back and we think wow that guy got it really wrong that guy got it really wrong that guy got it really wrong right tell tell sears that or jc right tell tell sears that or jc right tell tell sears that or jc penney's or any of these people penney's or any of these people penney's or any of these people right amazon is destroying all of them right amazon is destroying all of them right amazon is destroying all of them it's completely changing things so it's completely changing things so it's completely changing things so i think what crisis or or innovation i think what crisis or or innovation i think what crisis or or innovation does it reveals does it reveals does it reveals where you are and where you were it where you are and where you were it where you are and where you were it doesn't necessarily reveal doesn't necessarily reveal doesn't necessarily reveal exactly where you have to go i would exactly where you have to go i would exactly where you have to go i would argue a lot of these churches that are argue a lot of these churches that are argue a lot of these churches that are creating creating creating online campuses again

online campuses again online campuses again i'm i don't know i'm just guessing it's i'm i don't know i'm just guessing it's i'm i don't know i'm just guessing it's a hypothesis a hypothesis a hypothesis i'm not sure that's the right mechanism i'm not sure that's the right mechanism i'm not sure that's the right mechanism to move to move to move forward with digital i think digital i forward with digital i think digital i forward with digital i think digital i mean hybrid church mean hybrid church mean hybrid church we started using this new buzzword but we started using this new buzzword but we started using this new buzzword but we've been all we've been hybrid for a we've been all we've been hybrid for a we've been all we've been hybrid for a decade everybody has decade everybody has decade everybody has if you had a facebook group if you had if you had a facebook group if you had if you had a facebook group if you had any version of digital any version of digital any version of digital you were already hybrid if you had a you were already hybrid if you had a you were already hybrid if you had a website you were already hybrid so website you were already hybrid so website you were already hybrid so hybrid hybrid hybrid isn't new i think trying to figure out isn't new i think trying to figure out isn't new i think trying to figure out how to blend how to blend how to blend omnichannel blend hybrid you know omnichannel blend hybrid you know omnichannel blend hybrid you know physical and digital physical and digital physical and digital that's what's new and i don't think any that's what's new and i don't think any that's what's new and i don't think any of us of us of us have figured that out yet i do believe have figured that out yet i do believe have figured that out yet i do believe fully fully fully and again i may be the why we buy guy and again i may be the why we buy guy and again i may be the why we buy guy who's completely wrong about this in who's completely wrong about this in who's completely wrong about this in five years so five years so five years so i mean this is all opinion but my i mean this is all opinion but my i mean this is all opinion but my personal belief personal belief personal belief is that the digital sphere for church is that the digital sphere for church is that the digital sphere for church should be a supplement and a step should be a supplement and a step should be a supplement and a step not a substitute for physical i just not a substitute for physical i just not a substitute for physical i just don't think we can ever don't think we can ever don't think we can ever replace eyeball the eyeball experiences replace eyeball the eyeball experiences replace eyeball the eyeball experiences with a screen and allow it to be an with a screen and allow it to be an with a screen and allow it to be an equal equal equal substitute and so i want us to figure substitute and so i want us to figure substitute and so i want us to figure out ways to use digital out ways to use digital out ways to use digital to drive people for new people to to drive people for new people to to drive people for new people to experience us through a digital service experience us through a digital service experience us through a digital service or things like that or things like that or things like that so again if you have a digital campus if so again if you have a digital campus if so again if you have a digital campus if you're using it for those mechanisms i you're using it for those mechanisms i you're using it for those mechanisms i think it's a wonderful step think it's a wonderful step think it's a wonderful step but it needs to be a step not a but it needs to be a step not a but it needs to be a step not a substitute substitute substitute and i think this step is towards deeper and i think this step is towards deeper and i think this step is towards deeper engagement which at some point engagement which at some point engagement which at some point is probably going to look physical and i is probably going to look physical and i is probably going to look physical and i don't think we should get away from that

don't think we should get away from that don't think we should get away from that and i feel comfortable saying that only and i feel comfortable saying that only and i feel comfortable saying that only because before the pandemic because before the pandemic because before the pandemic at at least in our circles i was one of at at least in our circles i was one of at at least in our circles i was one of the guys the guys the guys waving the flag saying hey what if it waving the flag saying hey what if it waving the flag saying hey what if it what if we could be the amazon of church what if we could be the amazon of church what if we could be the amazon of church what if we don't need brick and mortar what if we don't need brick and mortar what if we don't need brick and mortar ever again i think it was a great ever again i think it was a great ever again i think it was a great thing to experiment with and then we got thing to experiment with and then we got thing to experiment with and then we got to experiment accidentally we were to experiment accidentally we were to experiment accidentally we were forced to do it during the pandemic and forced to do it during the pandemic and forced to do it during the pandemic and i think what we i think what we i think what we all realized is that trying to be the all realized is that trying to be the all realized is that trying to be the amazon of church amazon of church amazon of church doesn't really do the church full doesn't really do the church full doesn't really do the church full justice we can't be that justice we can't be that justice we can't be that we can't just be digital and i don't we can't just be digital and i don't we can't just be digital and i don't even think we can have equal parallel even think we can have equal parallel even think we can have equal parallel paths paths paths physical and digital i think there are physical and digital i think there are physical and digital i think there are some things that digital can do way some things that digital can do way some things that digital can do way better than physical better than physical better than physical i think there's some things physical can i think there's some things physical can i think there's some things physical can do way better than digital and we do way better than digital and we do way better than digital and we shouldn't try shouldn't try shouldn't try to make them both do the same thing to make them both do the same thing to make them both do the same thing they're made for different things let's they're made for different things let's they're made for different things let's use them for what they're made for use them for what they're made for use them for what they're made for i want to take a moment to thank you for i want to take a moment to thank you for i want to take a moment to thank you for tuning in to the missional marketing tuning in to the missional marketing tuning in to the missional marketing podcast podcast podcast it's always our goal to help you as a it's always our goal to help you as a it's always our goal to help you as a church leader leverage your church leader leverage your church leader leverage your communications and digital media communications and digital media communications and digital media resources to reach more people for jesus resources to reach more people for jesus resources to reach more people for jesus one of the ways that we help churches do one of the ways that we help churches do one of the ways that we help churches do that is through creating social media that is through creating social media that is through creating social media content from your sunday sermon videos content from your sunday sermon videos content from your sunday sermon videos specifically what we can do for you is specifically what we can do for you is specifically what we can do for you is to create short sermon snippets from 30 to create short sermon snippets from 30 to create short sermon snippets from 30 seconds long to five minutes long seconds long to five minutes long seconds long to five minutes long capturing those mic drop moments that capturing those mic drop moments that capturing those mic drop moments that you really want people to remember you really want people to remember you really want people to remember we edit the videos add captions add your we edit the videos add captions add your we edit the videos add captions add your church branding church branding church branding and then you or we post them to your and then you or we post them to your and then you or we post them to your social media channels social media channels social media channels as a pastor i always love to see my as a pastor i always love to see my as a pastor i always love to see my sermon content live on beyond the sermon content live on beyond the sermon content live on beyond the sundays

sundays sundays and i know that's what you value for and i know that's what you value for and i know that's what you value for your sermons too we offer this service your sermons too we offer this service your sermons too we offer this service as a monthly subscription as a monthly subscription as a monthly subscription but we've got a six week trial that but we've got a six week trial that but we've got a six week trial that gives you a chance to see how it works gives you a chance to see how it works gives you a chance to see how it works if you'd like more information just if you'd like more information just if you'd like more information just shoot me an email at beblair shoot me an email at beblair shoot me an email at beblair missionalmarketing.com i'd be glad to missionalmarketing.com i'd be glad to missionalmarketing.com i'd be glad to meet with you explain the process and meet with you explain the process and meet with you explain the process and answer any questions that you have answer any questions that you have answer any questions that you have once again thanks for tuning in to our once again thanks for tuning in to our once again thanks for tuning in to our podcast let's get back to the interview podcast let's get back to the interview podcast let's get back to the interview kind of i'm sorry i'm really distracted kind of i'm sorry i'm really distracted kind of i'm sorry i'm really distracted because you were talking about because you were talking about because you were talking about the shopping online thing and i just the shopping online thing and i just the shopping online thing and i just realized that i have a realized that i have a realized that i have a box of groceries sitting on my front box of groceries sitting on my front box of groceries sitting on my front step see i don't figure step see i don't figure step see i don't figure so i'm just like oh shoot i got to go so i'm just like oh shoot i got to go so i'm just like oh shoot i got to go get you go tell the author of why we buy get you go tell the author of why we buy get you go tell the author of why we buy about that about that about that yeah exactly um you know i think when we yeah exactly um you know i think when we yeah exactly um you know i think when we we those those church leaders that we those those church leaders that we those those church leaders that get things right well i'm generalizing get things right well i'm generalizing get things right well i'm generalizing here here here yeah the church building is a tool yeah the church building is a tool yeah the church building is a tool and when we when we recognize that as and when we when we recognize that as and when we when we recognize that as church leaders that our facility church leaders that our facility church leaders that our facility whether it's you know a 3 500 square whether it's you know a 3 500 square whether it's you know a 3 500 square foot foot foot warehouse space or a 35 000 you know warehouse space or a 35 000 you know warehouse space or a 35 000 you know square foot building on a square foot building on a square foot building on a 40-acre campus it is never anything more 40-acre campus it is never anything more 40-acre campus it is never anything more than a tool than a tool than a tool the internet is just a digital version the internet is just a digital version the internet is just a digital version of that tool and so figuring out how to of that tool and so figuring out how to of that tool and so figuring out how to house house house ministry in the context of the digital ministry in the context of the digital ministry in the context of the digital space space space is going to be the biggest trick you is going to be the biggest trick you is going to be the biggest trick you know we've been know we've been know we've been digital a lot of churches the church digital a lot of churches the church digital a lot of churches the church that i'm a part of we've broadcast our that i'm a part of we've broadcast our that i'm a part of we've broadcast our services services services on the internet for a decade right right

on the internet for a decade right right on the internet for a decade right right that's not new that's not new that's not new what we but but our mentality for that what we but but our mentality for that what we but but our mentality for that was was was never using it as an outreach it we were never using it as an outreach it we were never using it as an outreach it we were using it as a way of providing a service using it as a way of providing a service using it as a way of providing a service experience for experience for experience for our people who couldn't be there you our people who couldn't be there you our people who couldn't be there you know and i've talked about this in know and i've talked about this in know and i've talked about this in previous podcast episodes you know my previous podcast episodes you know my previous podcast episodes you know my family moved we moved to the city that family moved we moved to the city that family moved we moved to the city that we're living in we're living in we're living in now three years ago from 2000 miles away now three years ago from 2000 miles away now three years ago from 2000 miles away and it was awesome that we could do and it was awesome that we could do and it was awesome that we could do church shopping before we actually church shopping before we actually church shopping before we actually even landed on the ground because we even landed on the ground because we even landed on the ground because we could get that fly on the wall could get that fly on the wall could get that fly on the wall experience experience experience of what the weekend service was going to of what the weekend service was going to of what the weekend service was going to be like be like be like through the internet um but through the internet um but through the internet um but my wife and i are going through a my wife and i are going through a my wife and i are going through a transition right now because it's a transition right now because it's a transition right now because it's a large church that we're a part of large church that we're a part of large church that we're a part of and we've been attending the original and we've been attending the original and we've been attending the original campus the broadcast campus campus the broadcast campus campus the broadcast campus uh you know where there's thousands of uh you know where there's thousands of uh you know where there's thousands of people there on the weekend people there on the weekend people there on the weekend and we've recently started attending and we've recently started attending and we've recently started attending another campus that's a little further another campus that's a little further another campus that's a little further away away away for us to drive but it's only got 300 for us to drive but it's only got 300 for us to drive but it's only got 300 people on a sunday and we're watching people on a sunday and we're watching people on a sunday and we're watching the sermon the sermon the sermon broadcast from the other campus but broadcast from the other campus but broadcast from the other campus but everything else is live everything else is live everything else is live and it's that incarnational connection and it's that incarnational connection and it's that incarnational connection and that ability to see the same people and that ability to see the same people and that ability to see the same people every week when we're in that room every week when we're in that room every week when we're in that room eyeball the eyeball eyeball the eyeball eyeball the eyeball as you said that makes it feel more like as you said that makes it feel more like as you said that makes it feel more like church church church it never felt like church when we were it never felt like church when we were it never felt like church when we were sitting in our living room or sitting on sitting in our living room or sitting on sitting in our living room or sitting on our back patio last summer our back patio last summer our back patio last summer watching you know a live stream of the watching you know a live stream of the watching you know a live stream of the sermon or a pre-recorded sermon or a pre-recorded sermon or a pre-recorded version of the sermon and the worship version of the sermon and the worship version of the sermon and the worship band playing songs either live or band playing songs either live or band playing songs either live or pre-recorded that never felt like church pre-recorded that never felt like church pre-recorded that never felt like church because church is never was never

because church is never was never because church is never was never intended to be about the event it's intended to be about the event it's intended to be about the event it's always about the community always about the community always about the community and you know we have to we there's just and you know we have to we there's just and you know we have to we there's just a lot to process that a lot to process that a lot to process that there i don't know why i'm going down there i don't know why i'm going down there i don't know why i'm going down this rabbit trail here but you just kind this rabbit trail here but you just kind this rabbit trail here but you just kind of of of made me think of a couple of things made me think of a couple of things made me think of a couple of things there um so you know on that there um so you know on that there um so you know on that go ahead jason let's see i i'm you wrote go ahead jason let's see i i'm you wrote go ahead jason let's see i i'm you wrote a blog post recently a blog post recently a blog post recently so i'm really interested about this and so i'm really interested about this and so i'm really interested about this and it was called two scary reasons church it was called two scary reasons church it was called two scary reasons church people aren't coming back to church people aren't coming back to church people aren't coming back to church what are they and why are they scary what are they and why are they scary what are they and why are they scary well there's probably more than two well there's probably more than two well there's probably more than two right i right i right i yeah when i look at the broader kind of yeah when i look at the broader kind of yeah when i look at the broader kind of spectrum of church attenders christians spectrum of church attenders christians spectrum of church attenders christians are not right are not right are not right let's not worry about that just the let's not worry about that just the let's not worry about that just the people who were attending people who were attending people who were attending on a relative frequent basis and now on a relative frequent basis and now on a relative frequent basis and now they're they're not they're they're not they're they're not um there are lots of categories there um there are lots of categories there um there are lots of categories there were two specifically though that really were two specifically though that really were two specifically though that really bothered me the most bothered me the most bothered me the most those are the two that i wrote about the those are the two that i wrote about the those are the two that i wrote about the first one they're really just the church first one they're really just the church first one they're really just the church consumer the christian consumer consumer the christian consumer consumer the christian consumer that unfortunately we have reinforced that unfortunately we have reinforced that unfortunately we have reinforced anyway i mean we we have reinforced anyway i mean we we have reinforced anyway i mean we we have reinforced consumeristic christianity for years and consumeristic christianity for years and consumeristic christianity for years and years for a decade or more years for a decade or more years for a decade or more and now they were able to attend online and now they were able to attend online and now they were able to attend online and realize and realize and realize oh wow this is an even easier way to oh wow this is an even easier way to oh wow this is an even easier way to consume consume consume so i'm going to keep consuming that way so i'm going to keep consuming that way so i'm going to keep consuming that way i'm not going to come back i'm not going to come back i'm not going to come back i'm not going to get up and shower get i'm not going to get up and shower get i'm not going to get up and shower get dressed get my kids dressed dressed get my kids dressed dressed get my kids dressed drive in traffic all the stuff when i drive in traffic all the stuff when i drive in traffic all the stuff when i can just do it online can just do it online can just do it online but the thing that scares me about it is but the thing that scares me about it is but the thing that scares me about it is that it's just not the same online that it's just not the same online that it's just not the same online you can get content online i mean the you can get content online i mean the you can get content online i mean the internet is wonderful for content internet is wonderful for content internet is wonderful for content but it doesn't replace community and i

but it doesn't replace community and i but it doesn't replace community and i think if we are accidentally seeing think if we are accidentally seeing think if we are accidentally seeing missing the communal aspect bart you missing the communal aspect bart you missing the communal aspect bart you mentioned that earlier if we're missing mentioned that earlier if we're missing mentioned that earlier if we're missing that part of it that part of it that part of it we're missing possibly the strongest uh we're missing possibly the strongest uh we're missing possibly the strongest uh element that church provides not only element that church provides not only element that church provides not only did we reinforce it though did we reinforce it though did we reinforce it though through coved and we had to do that we through coved and we had to do that we through coved and we had to do that we had to go digital during covet 100 had to go digital during covet 100 had to go digital during covet 100 but we accidentally might have but we accidentally might have but we accidentally might have reinforced some behaviors that we don't reinforced some behaviors that we don't reinforced some behaviors that we don't want long term want long term want long term and what bothers me the most about that and what bothers me the most about that and what bothers me the most about that one group is their children one group is their children one group is their children because as an adult i mean i'm a big boy because as an adult i mean i'm a big boy because as an adult i mean i'm a big boy i can get content i can grow i can get content i can grow i can get content i can grow spiritually online there's things i spiritually online there's things i spiritually online there's things i still think being at a building is still think being at a building is still think being at a building is helpful with other people helpful with other people helpful with other people but i can i can still grow i'm just not but i can i can still grow i'm just not but i can i can still grow i'm just not sure that our average church attender sure that our average church attender sure that our average church attender is deep enough in their own faith to is deep enough in their own faith to is deep enough in their own faith to lead their children to have deep faith lead their children to have deep faith lead their children to have deep faith on their own digitally as well yeah so on their own digitally as well yeah so on their own digitally as well yeah so that scares me that scares me that scares me that's category one um can i go through that's category one um can i go through that's category one um can i go through category two jason category two jason category two jason yes please do category two is the worst yes please do category two is the worst yes please do category two is the worst one one one category two is the people who took a category two is the people who took a category two is the people who took a year or more off of church year or more off of church year or more off of church and looked up and realized their life is and looked up and realized their life is and looked up and realized their life is no worse no worse no worse so why would i ever go back that so why would i ever go back that so why would i ever go back that is a mirror question i think for us as is a mirror question i think for us as is a mirror question i think for us as church leaders church leaders church leaders i think sometimes we have a tendency i think sometimes we have a tendency i think sometimes we have a tendency it's probably just the brokenness in us it's probably just the brokenness in us it's probably just the brokenness in us we want to blame somebody else we want to blame somebody else we want to blame somebody else for things that aren't going well so you for things that aren't going well so you for things that aren't going well so you know people aren't coming back to church know people aren't coming back to church know people aren't coming back to church i mean how many times have you heard i mean how many times have you heard i mean how many times have you heard church leaders say church leaders say church leaders say well the young people aren't they're well the young people aren't they're well the young people aren't they're just different well just different well just different well they are different adjust so they come they are different adjust so they come they are different adjust so they come you know you know you know don't don't be let's not be mad at the

don't don't be let's not be mad at the don't don't be let's not be mad at the people who aren't coming let's look in people who aren't coming let's look in people who aren't coming let's look in the mirror and think about why the mirror and think about why the mirror and think about why they're not coming and let's change what they're not coming and let's change what they're not coming and let's change what we're doing to make it better for them we're doing to make it better for them we're doing to make it better for them i think that's one of the issues that i think that's one of the issues that i think that's one of the issues that we're we're seeing i think people we're we're seeing i think people we're we're seeing i think people took a year off from church looked took a year off from church looked took a year off from church looked around and thought you know what around and thought you know what around and thought you know what i don't really think i missed it and my i don't really think i missed it and my i don't really think i missed it and my life is no life is no life is no worse not being a church and i don't worse not being a church and i don't worse not being a church and i don't think that's their fault think that's their fault think that's their fault i think that's our fault as church i think that's our fault as church i think that's our fault as church leaders for not leaders for not leaders for not doing something creating something that doing something creating something that doing something creating something that was was was growing them in a way or changing their growing them in a way or changing their growing them in a way or changing their life life life in a way that when they missed church in a way that when they missed church in a way that when they missed church they missed they missed they missed out i think too many people missed out i think too many people missed out i think too many people missed church and felt like they didn't miss church and felt like they didn't miss church and felt like they didn't miss anything anything anything do you think they'll go ahead bert i do you think they'll go ahead bert i do you think they'll go ahead bert i would go so far as to say that i think would go so far as to say that i think would go so far as to say that i think that group might even be split that group might even be split that group might even be split into two because there are going to be into two because there are going to be into two because there are going to be some of those people who lean more some of those people who lean more some of those people who lean more towards that consumer side towards that consumer side towards that consumer side who are simply going to say being at a who are simply going to say being at a who are simply going to say being at a church service on sundays did not add church service on sundays did not add church service on sundays did not add any value to my life any value to my life any value to my life and i realized that now because i've and i realized that now because i've and i realized that now because i've gone a year without doing it and it gone a year without doing it and it gone a year without doing it and it didn't add value didn't add value didn't add value the other half of that group is is going the other half of that group is is going the other half of that group is is going i just realized that it wasn't adding i just realized that it wasn't adding i just realized that it wasn't adding any value and i any value and i any value and i still want to be connected to a church still want to be connected to a church still want to be connected to a church so i'm going to try a different so i'm going to try a different so i'm going to try a different church i think that that that group is church i think that that that group is church i think that that that group is so so as a pastor so so as a pastor so so as a pastor sitting in your office going through the sitting in your office going through the sitting in your office going through the numbers going you know who's back and numbers going you know who's back and numbers going you know who's back and who's not back who's not back who's not back i think that you're you're you're dead i think that you're you're you're dead i think that you're you're you're dead on that those two groups on that those two groups on that those two groups you know but there's a i think there's you know but there's a i think there's you know but there's a i think there's that subcategory in that second group that subcategory in that second group that subcategory in that second group it's like my church wasn't adding value

it's like my church wasn't adding value it's like my church wasn't adding value i know i need to be connected to the i know i need to be connected to the i know i need to be connected to the local church so i'm trying another local church so i'm trying another local church so i'm trying another church in this season where it's easy church in this season where it's easy church in this season where it's easy for me to do that without feeling guilty for me to do that without feeling guilty for me to do that without feeling guilty about it about it about it well there's a huge number of people i well there's a huge number of people i well there's a huge number of people i don't know what the percentage is don't know what the percentage is don't know what the percentage is obviously for even for me obviously for even for me obviously for even for me but all of us have this group of people but all of us have this group of people but all of us have this group of people in our churches where in our churches where in our churches where they have uh you know it's just sheep they have uh you know it's just sheep they have uh you know it's just sheep swapping right swapping right swapping right like they have found another place to like they have found another place to like they have found another place to engage either physically or digitally engage either physically or digitally engage either physically or digitally with church with church with church but what's the the most unfortunate but what's the the most unfortunate but what's the the most unfortunate thing that's happened in that thing that's happened in that thing that's happened in that you know that happens all the time right you know that happens all the time right you know that happens all the time right every month that happens every month that happens every month that happens pre-pandemic that was happening but the pre-pandemic that was happening but the pre-pandemic that was happening but the pandemic pandemic pandemic launched multiple other pandemics right launched multiple other pandemics right launched multiple other pandemics right pandemics of anger pandemics of anger pandemics of anger frustration a racial pandemic a frustration a racial pandemic a frustration a racial pandemic a political pandemic all of these things political pandemic all of these things political pandemic all of these things got worse got worse got worse what we have actually seen and it drives what we have actually seen and it drives what we have actually seen and it drives me bonkers me bonkers me bonkers what we have seen is lots of people what we have seen is lots of people what we have seen is lots of people leaving churches leaving churches leaving churches and going to other churches not because and going to other churches not because and going to other churches not because of theology but because of some of theology but because of some of theology but because of some perceived political perceived political perceived political ideology they're trying to find churches ideology they're trying to find churches ideology they're trying to find churches on sunday on sunday on sunday that align with the cable news that they that align with the cable news that they that align with the cable news that they watch monday to saturday watch monday to saturday watch monday to saturday and the church should be out of that and the church should be out of that and the church should be out of that completely we should never be that way completely we should never be that way completely we should never be that way but we are we've allowed ours well we but we are we've allowed ours well we but we are we've allowed ours well we haven't we have fought against that we haven't we have fought against that we haven't we have fought against that we stay in the middle on every topic which stay in the middle on every topic which stay in the middle on every topic which is also problematic in other ways but is also problematic in other ways but is also problematic in other ways but um can't win it's more difficult right um can't win it's more difficult right um can't win it's more difficult right so you just make everybody mad but so you just make everybody mad but so you just make everybody mad but that's okay they're all equally that's okay they're all equally that's okay they're all equally frustrated but they're not leaving for frustrated but they're not leaving for frustrated but they're not leaving for that reason that reason that reason yeah so to your point there's there's yeah so to your point there's there's yeah so to your point there's there's other categories right bart other categories right bart other categories right bart but um i think at least holistically

but um i think at least holistically but um i think at least holistically those are the two that have those are the two that have those are the two that have scared me the most about what we have scared me the most about what we have scared me the most about what we have seen on this side of the pandemic seen on this side of the pandemic seen on this side of the pandemic let's zoom in let's zoom in on that zoom let's zoom in let's zoom in on that zoom let's zoom in let's zoom in on that zoom in on that a little bit um in on that a little bit um in on that a little bit um and put yourself put yourself in a and put yourself put yourself in a and put yourself put yourself in a position as a pastor like you pastor a position as a pastor like you pastor a position as a pastor like you pastor a large church so large church so large church so in a church where there's seven or eight in a church where there's seven or eight in a church where there's seven or eight thousand people on a weekend you know thousand people on a weekend you know thousand people on a weekend you know you can only really know a handful of you can only really know a handful of you can only really know a handful of those people those people those people um you probably know some that haven't um you probably know some that haven't um you probably know some that haven't come back but if you zoom in to a church come back but if you zoom in to a church come back but if you zoom in to a church of like say 200 or 500 or 600 of like say 200 or 500 or 600 of like say 200 or 500 or 600 where the pastor and the church where the pastor and the church where the pastor and the church leadership leadership leadership team they really know they know team they really know they know team they really know they know by name who's not there um by name who's not there um by name who's not there um how would you coach a pastor in that how would you coach a pastor in that how would you coach a pastor in that situation on how to actually situation on how to actually situation on how to actually address those people what steps would address those people what steps would address those people what steps would you take you take you take obviously one of the things you said is obviously one of the things you said is obviously one of the things you said is you know if if we found that if they've you know if if we found that if they've you know if if we found that if they've discovered that we're not adding value discovered that we're not adding value discovered that we're not adding value that they're not life is no different that they're not life is no different that they're not life is no different from showing up from showing up from showing up the first place we need to look is the first place we need to look is the first place we need to look is inward and say what can we do or what inward and say what can we do or what inward and say what can we do or what should we do to make sure that we are should we do to make sure that we are should we do to make sure that we are adding value and that people feel a need adding value and that people feel a need adding value and that people feel a need to be here to be here to be here but they're obviously it's it's church but they're obviously it's it's church but they're obviously it's it's church it's not about the event it's about the it's not about the event it's about the it's not about the event it's about the relationships relationships relationships so in the context of those relationships so in the context of those relationships so in the context of those relationships how would you coach a pastor on how would you coach a pastor on how would you coach a pastor on approaching those people that are not approaching those people that are not approaching those people that are not coming back coming back coming back and and kind of navigating those waters and and kind of navigating those waters and and kind of navigating those waters well well well if i could be real blunt about this i if i could be real blunt about this i if i could be real blunt about this i and i and i and i i've got to coach pastors on this i do i've got to coach pastors on this i do i've got to coach pastors on this i do this a lot um this a lot um this a lot um the minute we become more concerned the minute we become more concerned the minute we become more concerned about keeping people than reaching about keeping people than reaching about keeping people than reaching people the end is near anyway

people the end is near anyway people the end is near anyway i i would love for pastors to think i i would love for pastors to think i i would love for pastors to think more like a church plant or a church more like a church plant or a church more like a church plant or a church replant replant replant than a reopening we're not we're not than a reopening we're not we're not than a reopening we're not we're not just restarting just restarting just restarting we're we're replanting and as a church we're we're replanting and as a church we're we're replanting and as a church planter you're not worried about planter you're not worried about planter you're not worried about the keeping as much as you are the the keeping as much as you are the the keeping as much as you are the reaching and i think for all of us reaching and i think for all of us reaching and i think for all of us we have to learn from what happened we we have to learn from what happened we we have to learn from what happened we need to learn from the people who have need to learn from the people who have need to learn from the people who have walked away walked away walked away and if we have relationships with them and if we have relationships with them and if we have relationships with them where we have the ability to where we have the ability to where we have the ability to have a conversation about it we should have a conversation about it we should have a conversation about it we should but not to convince them to come back but not to convince them to come back but not to convince them to come back we need to have a conversation to learn we need to have a conversation to learn we need to have a conversation to learn why they left so that we can fix our why they left so that we can fix our why they left so that we can fix our model so that the next group doesn't model so that the next group doesn't model so that the next group doesn't leave again leave again leave again and as we are reaching new people and as we are reaching new people and as we are reaching new people bringing them into a church bringing them into a church bringing them into a church that is a better model for reaching and that is a better model for reaching and that is a better model for reaching and for disciple building for disciple building for disciple building so that when the next version of a so that when the next version of a so that when the next version of a pandemic happens in their life or pandemic happens in their life or pandemic happens in their life or collectively in our community collectively in our community collectively in our community we don't see the same pattern repeated we don't see the same pattern repeated we don't see the same pattern repeated i'm just convinced that trying to go and i'm just convinced that trying to go and i'm just convinced that trying to go and get all the people back get all the people back get all the people back who have left that's that's not who have left that's that's not who have left that's that's not necessarily a great use of my time necessarily a great use of my time necessarily a great use of my time especially if they're christians i'm especially if they're christians i'm especially if they're christians i'm like hey if you're a christian and like hey if you're a christian and like hey if you're a christian and you've decided to go somewhere else you've decided to go somewhere else you've decided to go somewhere else okay you know we'll get to heaven we'll okay you know we'll get to heaven we'll okay you know we'll get to heaven we'll argue about it then but who cares argue about it then but who cares argue about it then but who cares i'm so much more concerned about the i'm so much more concerned about the i'm so much more concerned about the unchurched d church the non-believer in unchurched d church the non-believer in unchurched d church the non-believer in our community our community our community i want to make sure that we're focused i want to make sure that we're focused i want to make sure that we're focused on continuing to reach them on continuing to reach them on continuing to reach them and when we do reach them creating and when we do reach them creating and when we do reach them creating spiritual steps in a pathway spiritual steps in a pathway spiritual steps in a pathway that leads them to christ and leads them

that leads them to christ and leads them that leads them to christ and leads them to grow in their christ likeness over to grow in their christ likeness over to grow in their christ likeness over time time time and if we're doing that in a and if we're doing that in a and if we're doing that in a community-focused kind of experience community-focused kind of experience community-focused kind of experience odds are the next pandemic that hits odds are the next pandemic that hits odds are the next pandemic that hits they'll be more likely to re-engage than they'll be more likely to re-engage than they'll be more likely to re-engage than what we just saw interesting yeah i think about uh interesting yeah i think about uh you know that whole cuz there's a church you know that whole cuz there's a church you know that whole cuz there's a church that comes on my mind i'm not going to that comes on my mind i'm not going to that comes on my mind i'm not going to say their name but they're so focused on say their name but they're so focused on say their name but they're so focused on getting their people back and they getting their people back and they getting their people back and they haven't been able they haven't been able haven't been able they haven't been able haven't been able they haven't been able to be in person to be in person to be in person like a lot of other churches they're like a lot of other churches they're like a lot of other churches they're just seems like on the on the coast just seems like on the on the coast just seems like on the on the coast both coasts uh they're now starting to both coasts uh they're now starting to both coasts uh they're now starting to be able to do in-person church be able to do in-person church be able to do in-person church but i i your your point on but i i your your point on but i i your your point on uh for them for them not to come back i uh for them for them not to come back i uh for them for them not to come back i think about you know if you were to have think about you know if you were to have think about you know if you were to have a a a a gathering at your house every every a gathering at your house every every a gathering at your house every every weekend and it was a set time and you weekend and it was a set time and you weekend and it was a set time and you had people come had people come had people come if you didn't if you weren't creative if you didn't if you weren't creative if you didn't if you weren't creative enough and you didn't enough and you didn't enough and you didn't if you weren't uh really uh having if you weren't uh really uh having if you weren't uh really uh having authentic community authentic community authentic community moments they're gonna stop coming moments they're gonna stop coming moments they're gonna stop coming they're gonna get bored by it they're gonna get bored by it they're gonna get bored by it and i think about well what if you had and i think about well what if you had and i think about well what if you had uh that kind of environment where it's uh that kind of environment where it's uh that kind of environment where it's you know it's a i mean you're worshiping you know it's a i mean you're worshiping you know it's a i mean you're worshiping god but you have this environment where god but you have this environment where god but you have this environment where you you you you have your friends bring friends you have your friends bring friends you have your friends bring friends that that's then you always want to go that that's then you always want to go that that's then you always want to go because like my friends are going to because like my friends are going to because like my friends are going to come i want to be a part of that come i want to be a part of that come i want to be a part of that movement movement movement and i think when whenever we stop and i think when whenever we stop and i think when whenever we stop growing the church growing the church growing the church by the the best way we grow the church by the the best way we grow the church by the the best way we grow the church is people inviting their neighbors and is people inviting their neighbors and is people inviting their neighbors and friends friends friends then we have a big problem and that's

then we have a big problem and that's then we have a big problem and that's where then you slip away from the church where then you slip away from the church where then you slip away from the church you're like yeah i didn't miss anything you're like yeah i didn't miss anything you're like yeah i didn't miss anything yeah because you never brought friends yeah because you never brought friends yeah because you never brought friends in the first place you weren't a part of in the first place you weren't a part of in the first place you weren't a part of that that that life-changing um life-changing um life-changing um rhythm and you weren't a part of that rhythm and you weren't a part of that rhythm and you weren't a part of that community and so community and so community and so yeah i think i i really it's very yeah i think i i really it's very yeah i think i i really it's very interesting interesting interesting how you phrased we really need to look how you phrased we really need to look how you phrased we really need to look at ourselves as pastors at ourselves as pastors at ourselves as pastors as leaders church leaders and go what as leaders church leaders and go what as leaders church leaders and go what are we doing here are we doing here are we doing here are we just doing this thing every are we just doing this thing every are we just doing this thing every single week just single week just single week just yeah you're right i mean people are yeah you're right i mean people are yeah you're right i mean people are gonna get bored by that right if it's gonna get bored by that right if it's gonna get bored by that right if it's you know you know you know if god's not in it well the most if god's not in it well the most if god's not in it well the most passionate people at our church passionate people at our church passionate people at our church are the contributors now we have to be are the contributors now we have to be are the contributors now we have to be careful because sometimes careful because sometimes careful because sometimes i think we can accidentally substitute i think we can accidentally substitute i think we can accidentally substitute church participation with discipleship church participation with discipleship church participation with discipleship those aren't the same thing you know those aren't the same thing you know those aren't the same thing you know right when we see people who are right when we see people who are right when we see people who are inviting and serving and giving inviting and serving and giving inviting and serving and giving we can accidentally believe that they we can accidentally believe that they we can accidentally believe that they are growing in their relationship with are growing in their relationship with are growing in their relationship with with christ with christ with christ they might be yeah or they may not i they might be yeah or they may not i they might be yeah or they may not i know plenty of people who do those know plenty of people who do those know plenty of people who do those things things things and are terrible people and they have and are terrible people and they have and are terrible people and they have been for a decade it's like been for a decade it's like been for a decade it's like they're not growing in their christ they're not growing in their christ they're not growing in their christ likeness they're just behaving likeness they're just behaving likeness they're just behaving in some ways that you know are uh in some ways that you know are uh in some ways that you know are uh what we would say look like fruit right what we would say look like fruit right what we would say look like fruit right but it's not that fruity but it's not that fruity but it's not that fruity so i better be careful with those two so i better be careful with those two so i better be careful with those two things but as a church things but as a church things but as a church you know there are three things that i you know there are three things that i you know there are three things that i feel like we're always focused on feel like we're always focused on feel like we're always focused on we're focused on reaching people or we're focused on reaching people or we're focused on reaching people or really partnering with our people to really partnering with our people to really partnering with our people to reach people reach people reach people yeah we're help we're focused on yeah we're help we're focused on yeah we're help we're focused on creating an experience

creating an experience creating an experience that allows them to move from consuming that allows them to move from consuming that allows them to move from consuming to contributing to contributing to contributing and then we're also focused on having a and then we're also focused on having a and then we're also focused on having a kind of robust kind of robust kind of robust steps not programs steps that lead steps not programs steps that lead steps not programs steps that lead people on a discipleship pathway people on a discipleship pathway people on a discipleship pathway and if we can do those things really and if we can do those things really and if we can do those things really well we have a dynamic and thriving well we have a dynamic and thriving well we have a dynamic and thriving church church church i think we accidentally if i could get i think we accidentally if i could get i think we accidentally if i could get real blunt for a minute or at least real blunt for a minute or at least real blunt for a minute or at least be be vulnerable about what we have done be be vulnerable about what we have done be be vulnerable about what we have done i think we thought that participation i think we thought that participation i think we thought that participation equaled discipleship and then we hit the equaled discipleship and then we hit the equaled discipleship and then we hit the pandemic and realized pandemic and realized pandemic and realized wow people who were participating lots wow people who were participating lots wow people who were participating lots of them of them of them don't seem to be very christ-like they don't seem to be very christ-like they don't seem to be very christ-like they don't seem to be don't seem to be don't seem to be very selfless they seem to be hyper very selfless they seem to be hyper very selfless they seem to be hyper concerned with concerned with concerned with their experience with their church their experience with their church their experience with their church i mean every email i got during the i mean every email i got during the i mean every email i got during the pandemic almost exclusively pandemic almost exclusively pandemic almost exclusively was what i am mad about why i was what i am mad about why i was what i am mad about why i am not getting what i think i should am not getting what i think i should am not getting what i think i should meanwhile meanwhile meanwhile that is not what we're here to think that is not what we're here to think that is not what we're here to think about as christ followers right about as christ followers right about as christ followers right so this one another thing gets lost so this one another thing gets lost so this one another thing gets lost if we start substituting discipleship if we start substituting discipleship if we start substituting discipleship for for for for for for participation they're both important but participation they're both important but participation they're both important but they're not equal they're not equal they're not equal and i think again we talk about the and i think again we talk about the and i think again we talk about the pandemic revealing something pandemic revealing something pandemic revealing something i think the pandemic revealed that for i think the pandemic revealed that for i think the pandemic revealed that for me that maybe we accidentally equated me that maybe we accidentally equated me that maybe we accidentally equated those things those things those things wow participation is a part of wow participation is a part of wow participation is a part of discipleship right apart being connected discipleship right apart being connected discipleship right apart being connected being engaged being engaged being engaged knowing your spiritual gifts actually knowing your spiritual gifts actually knowing your spiritual gifts actually having an environment and a place where having an environment and a place where having an environment and a place where you can you can you can exercise those spiritual gifts for the

exercise those spiritual gifts for the exercise those spiritual gifts for the for the benefit of the body for the benefit of the body for the benefit of the body 100 it's it's a part of discipleship 100 it's it's a part of discipleship 100 it's it's a part of discipleship but uh it's just one of many but uh it's just one of many but uh it's just one of many you know lights on the dashboard when it you know lights on the dashboard when it you know lights on the dashboard when it comes to evaluating someone's comes to evaluating someone's comes to evaluating someone's spiritual health and where they are in spiritual health and where they are in spiritual health and where they are in their spiritual journey and i would say their spiritual journey and i would say their spiritual journey and i would say it's a result of discipleship not it's a result of discipleship not it's a result of discipleship not necessarily discipleship right okay so necessarily discipleship right okay so necessarily discipleship right okay so you know um i feel like if we think you know um i feel like if we think you know um i feel like if we think about the fruit example i feel like if about the fruit example i feel like if about the fruit example i feel like if we're doing we're doing we're doing a great job as a church if each a great job as a church if each a great job as a church if each individual is a tree and we're individual is a tree and we're individual is a tree and we're doing everything we can to grow the tree doing everything we can to grow the tree doing everything we can to grow the tree then eventually the fruit will come from then eventually the fruit will come from then eventually the fruit will come from that tree that tree that tree fruit like generosity selflessness fruit like generosity selflessness fruit like generosity selflessness serving serving serving inviting you know uh sharing their faith inviting you know uh sharing their faith inviting you know uh sharing their faith evangelism evangelism evangelism those things are kind of the the proof those things are kind of the the proof those things are kind of the the proof of something of something of something but when we focus on the fruit and not but when we focus on the fruit and not but when we focus on the fruit and not the the the tree the the the tree the the the tree we might accidentally miss the fact the we might accidentally miss the fact the we might accidentally miss the fact the tree needs to become more healthy first tree needs to become more healthy first tree needs to become more healthy first and i think that's what we did and the and i think that's what we did and the and i think that's what we did and the christ the pandemic revealed that for us christ the pandemic revealed that for us christ the pandemic revealed that for us that we had a bunch of unhealthy trees that we had a bunch of unhealthy trees that we had a bunch of unhealthy trees that were doing some things that were doing some things that were doing some things but they weren't really necessarily but they weren't really necessarily but they weren't really necessarily growing in their faith growing in their faith growing in their faith and i think that really has shaped what and i think that really has shaped what and i think that really has shaped what we're trying to do post-pandemic when it we're trying to do post-pandemic when it we're trying to do post-pandemic when it comes to creating community in different comes to creating community in different comes to creating community in different ways ways ways creating a lot more incremental steps creating a lot more incremental steps creating a lot more incremental steps towards spiritual growth i mean you know towards spiritual growth i mean you know towards spiritual growth i mean you know that's another hour and a half on stuff that's another hour and a half on stuff that's another hour and a half on stuff but but but you know all those things are you know all those things are you know all those things are post-pandemic thinking about steps for post-pandemic thinking about steps for post-pandemic thinking about steps for people in discipleship people in discipleship people in discipleship wow gavin this is this has been a really wow gavin this is this has been a really wow gavin this is this has been a really interesting conversation

interesting conversation interesting conversation and i i have a feeling that we could and i i have a feeling that we could and i i have a feeling that we could probably do this probably do this probably do this for a long time but we're going to wrap for a long time but we're going to wrap for a long time but we're going to wrap up before we wrap up though up before we wrap up though up before we wrap up though um one of the things that you shared um one of the things that you shared um one of the things that you shared with us in in in with us in in in with us in in in in your uh in introductory remarks was in your uh in introductory remarks was in your uh in introductory remarks was the fact that you're the fact that you're the fact that you're pastoring and have been pastoring uh pastoring and have been pastoring uh pastoring and have been pastoring uh woodstock city church for a number of woodstock city church for a number of woodstock city church for a number of years now years now years now uh but prior to us recording uh you uh but prior to us recording uh you uh but prior to us recording uh you share that you're actually share that you're actually share that you're actually in the transition and so why don't you in the transition and so why don't you in the transition and so why don't you share with our share with our share with our our audience a little bit about your our audience a little bit about your our audience a little bit about your transition and what's coming next for transition and what's coming next for transition and what's coming next for you you you sure thanks for asking about that we um sure thanks for asking about that we um sure thanks for asking about that we um i i have been in the process well i i i have been in the process well i i i have been in the process well i mentioned in the marketplace i was a mentioned in the marketplace i was a mentioned in the marketplace i was a consultant and that's really in my dna consultant and that's really in my dna consultant and that's really in my dna and i love doing that and even during my and i love doing that and even during my and i love doing that and even during my 15 years of ministry i've found myself 15 years of ministry i've found myself 15 years of ministry i've found myself on weekends traveling to preach and on weekends traveling to preach and on weekends traveling to preach and consult with churches work with staff consult with churches work with staff consult with churches work with staff things like that and i have just things like that and i have just things like that and i have just thoroughly loved it thoroughly loved it thoroughly loved it uh combining that with finishing my uh combining that with finishing my uh combining that with finishing my doctorate last year and just being doctorate last year and just being doctorate last year and just being exposed exposed exposed to the sheer volume of churches that are to the sheer volume of churches that are to the sheer volume of churches that are struggling plateaued declining struggling plateaued declining struggling plateaued declining declining dying and even the ones that declining dying and even the ones that declining dying and even the ones that are thriving that have a vision for are thriving that have a vision for are thriving that have a vision for something bigger something bigger something bigger that they aren't just sure how to get that they aren't just sure how to get that they aren't just sure how to get there god has positioned me uniquely in there god has positioned me uniquely in there god has positioned me uniquely in marketplace marketplace marketplace ministry experience and now education ministry experience and now education ministry experience and now education and i just felt the call to and i just felt the call to and i just felt the call to walk away from what i'm doing from this walk away from what i'm doing from this walk away from what i'm doing from this for this one church or this group of for this one church or this group of for this one church or this group of churches at north point churches at north point churches at north point and see what maybe god could do to help and see what maybe god could do to help and see what maybe god could do to help position me with other churches to help position me with other churches to help position me with other churches to help them thrive as well so them thrive as well so them thrive as well so i launched a company officially in i launched a company officially in i launched a company officially in january of this year called

january of this year called january of this year called transformation transformation transformation solutions really our goal is to coach solutions really our goal is to coach solutions really our goal is to coach leaders and work with churches on leaders and work with churches on leaders and work with churches on helping them navigate helping them navigate helping them navigate the incredible complexities of change the incredible complexities of change the incredible complexities of change because because because every decision we make has an element of every decision we make has an element of every decision we make has an element of change in the implementation change in the implementation change in the implementation and that's where churches go wrong it and that's where churches go wrong it and that's where churches go wrong it isn't necessarily in the decision making isn't necessarily in the decision making isn't necessarily in the decision making it's the implementation and the it's the implementation and the it's the implementation and the execution execution execution that's where the hang up is and the that's where the hang up is and the that's where the hang up is and the reason is because people are involved reason is because people are involved reason is because people are involved so figuring out how to lead people so figuring out how to lead people so figuring out how to lead people through change and transformation through change and transformation through change and transformation that's really what i've been focused on that's really what i've been focused on that's really what i've been focused on and so i'm excited about doing that my and so i'm excited about doing that my and so i'm excited about doing that my my hope is that to take everything i've my hope is that to take everything i've my hope is that to take everything i've learned in kind of helping revitalize learned in kind of helping revitalize learned in kind of helping revitalize this church this church this church leading as a point leader leading as a leading as a point leader leading as a leading as a point leader leading as a campus uh campus uh campus uh leading in a much larger organization in leading in a much larger organization in leading in a much larger organization in north point north point north point take all of those things as best i can take all of those things as best i can take all of those things as best i can and help other churches uh and help other churches uh and help other churches uh just find that vision and help them live just find that vision and help them live just find that vision and help them live out what they've been you know dying to out what they've been you know dying to out what they've been you know dying to live out live out live out now for you know weeks months or now for you know weeks months or now for you know weeks months or potentially years potentially years potentially years describe for us what the describe for us what the describe for us what the church would look like that you would be church would look like that you would be church would look like that you would be walking on this journey with well um walking on this journey with well um walking on this journey with well um there isn't a type of church it really there isn't a type of church it really there isn't a type of church it really is a place that the leader is at is a place that the leader is at is a place that the leader is at you know a a church that has a leader you know a a church that has a leader you know a a church that has a leader that doesn't really have a vision for that doesn't really have a vision for that doesn't really have a vision for the future and the future and the future and doesn't really feel like things need to doesn't really feel like things need to doesn't really feel like things need to change we're probably not gonna have a change we're probably not gonna have a change we're probably not gonna have a lot of fun together lot of fun together lot of fun together uh the leader though who recognizes uh the leader though who recognizes uh the leader though who recognizes that something needs to be better maybe that something needs to be better maybe that something needs to be better maybe they don't even know what it is

they don't even know what it is they don't even know what it is um i can help with that but if even if um i can help with that but if even if um i can help with that but if even if they do know what it is they do know what it is they do know what it is the problem that senior pastors have and the problem that senior pastors have and the problem that senior pastors have and you guys know this you guys know this you guys know this we work in an industry where every seven we work in an industry where every seven we work in an industry where every seven days days days here comes sunday and if you're a pastor here comes sunday and if you're a pastor here comes sunday and if you're a pastor it feels like it's every four days it feels like it's every four days it feels like it's every four days so the the preparing for sunday so the the preparing for sunday so the the preparing for sunday orchestrating sunday digitally or orchestrating sunday digitally or orchestrating sunday digitally or physically that's a physically that's a physically that's a management activity change is a management activity change is a management activity change is a leadership leadership leadership initiative and it's very very difficult initiative and it's very very difficult initiative and it's very very difficult for pastors to find enough time in their for pastors to find enough time in their for pastors to find enough time in their week week week to focus on leadership because there is to focus on leadership because there is to focus on leadership because there is so much so much so much management that's required so what i'm management that's required so what i'm management that's required so what i'm doing is coming alongside and almost doing is coming alongside and almost doing is coming alongside and almost functioning in some ways as an extension functioning in some ways as an extension functioning in some ways as an extension of their leadership team of their leadership team of their leadership team to help guide them and direct them on to help guide them and direct them on to help guide them and direct them on the leadership the leadership the leadership side of change and transformation to side of change and transformation to side of change and transformation to help make things better help make things better help make things better so so bart it's not a denomination or a so so bart it's not a denomination or a so so bart it's not a denomination or a a reaching church it's none of those a reaching church it's none of those a reaching church it's none of those things things things it's it's a church who recognizes that it's it's a church who recognizes that it's it's a church who recognizes that they know they could reach their they know they could reach their they know they could reach their community community community they know that they could do things they know that they could do things they know that they could do things better they just aren't exactly sure how better they just aren't exactly sure how better they just aren't exactly sure how to do it and by the way to do it and by the way to do it and by the way they've probably tried to change things they've probably tried to change things they've probably tried to change things already before already before already before and it was a real struggle there's a and it was a real struggle there's a and it was a real struggle there's a reason 80 to 90 reason 80 to 90 reason 80 to 90 of change initiatives fail uh and part of change initiatives fail uh and part of change initiatives fail uh and part of the reason is we have so much more to of the reason is we have so much more to of the reason is we have so much more to manage we don't have time to lead it manage we don't have time to lead it manage we don't have time to lead it second reason is we don't really second reason is we don't really second reason is we don't really understand the people side of it so understand the people side of it so understand the people side of it so that's what i'm helping churches do that's what i'm helping churches do that's what i'm helping churches do i always jokingly say that um change is i always jokingly say that um change is i always jokingly say that um change is the only the only the only six-letter word in the english language six-letter word in the english language six-letter word in the english language that's a four-letter word in church

that's a four-letter word in church that's a four-letter word in church yes yes changes change is hard it really yes yes changes change is hard it really yes yes changes change is hard it really is is is lots of good and bad reasons so helping lots of good and bad reasons so helping lots of good and bad reasons so helping uh leaders do that i mean i end up uh leaders do that i mean i end up uh leaders do that i mean i end up it's so fun i spent so much time even it's so fun i spent so much time even it's so fun i spent so much time even with elders with volunteer teams with with elders with volunteer teams with with elders with volunteer teams with the insiders of churches the insiders of churches the insiders of churches uh and how and really coaching the uh and how and really coaching the uh and how and really coaching the leader the senior pastor on how to leader the senior pastor on how to leader the senior pastor on how to navigate those conversations and how to navigate those conversations and how to navigate those conversations and how to do that really well do that really well do that really well and helping them realize that there's a and helping them realize that there's a and helping them realize that there's a framework that we can leverage to framework that we can leverage to framework that we can leverage to diagnose where we are diagnose where we are diagnose where we are but also to guide and navigate us as we but also to guide and navigate us as we but also to guide and navigate us as we walk through this change walk through this change walk through this change but knowing what's going to happen but knowing what's going to happen but knowing what's going to happen before it happens prepares us to lead before it happens prepares us to lead before it happens prepares us to lead through it really well through it really well through it really well and so that's what i'm primarily doing and so that's what i'm primarily doing and so that's what i'm primarily doing that's awesome that's awesome that's awesome jason do you have any follow-up jason do you have any follow-up jason do you have any follow-up questions before we wrap up this episode questions before we wrap up this episode questions before we wrap up this episode no i mean this has been fantastic thank no i mean this has been fantastic thank no i mean this has been fantastic thank you you you for opening up and sharing your heart for opening up and sharing your heart for opening up and sharing your heart and your experience with and your experience with and your experience with with our listeners and kind of where with our listeners and kind of where with our listeners and kind of where things are going it's it's a things are going it's it's a things are going it's it's a i mean it is an exciting time it's a i mean it is an exciting time it's a i mean it is an exciting time it's a different season and god's different season and god's different season and god's good and his church will never fail and good and his church will never fail and good and his church will never fail and so we just have to tune into that i so we just have to tune into that i so we just have to tune into that i think but think but think but um i would ask you know you've already um i would ask you know you've already um i would ask you know you've already mentioned a few people that you're mentioned a few people that you're mentioned a few people that you're connected with but connected with but connected with but you know um are there where do you get you know um are there where do you get you know um are there where do you get inspiration and who are you kind of inspiration and who are you kind of inspiration and who are you kind of following who are you paying attention following who are you paying attention following who are you paying attention to to to and in your world and your sphere yeah and in your world and your sphere yeah and in your world and your sphere yeah well in my world well in my world well in my world i have um some people that i'm very i i have um some people that i'm very i i have um some people that i'm very i just am very lucky just am very lucky just am very lucky because of where i worked i have met because of where i worked i have met because of where i worked i have met some people that have been very some people that have been very some people that have been very beneficial for me personally and beneficial for me personally and beneficial for me personally and professionally um professionally um professionally um one of my closer friends in this whole one of my closer friends in this whole one of my closer friends in this whole thing is a guy named jeff henderson you thing is a guy named jeff henderson you thing is a guy named jeff henderson you may have heard of him

may have heard of him may have heard of him he runs the four company wrote a book he runs the four company wrote a book he runs the four company wrote a book called know what you're four it's called know what you're four it's called know what you're four it's incredible incredible incredible for churches and really for businesses for churches and really for businesses for churches and really for businesses as well tony morgan and the unstuck as well tony morgan and the unstuck as well tony morgan and the unstuck group group group very good friends with those guys love very good friends with those guys love very good friends with those guys love what they do helping churches get what they do helping churches get what they do helping churches get unstuck i've learned a lot from them unstuck i've learned a lot from them unstuck i've learned a lot from them uh carrie newhoff good friend too does uh carrie newhoff good friend too does uh carrie newhoff good friend too does some really great things who's some really great things who's some really great things who's constantly challenging me constantly challenging me constantly challenging me digitally and sometimes in person on how digitally and sometimes in person on how digitally and sometimes in person on how to think bigger and better about church to think bigger and better about church to think bigger and better about church uh and i'll tell you like on social uh and i'll tell you like on social uh and i'll tell you like on social media this is a person i'm not a friend media this is a person i'm not a friend media this is a person i'm not a friend with uh but i with uh but i with uh but i love their perspective is beth moore i love their perspective is beth moore i love their perspective is beth moore i love her boldness and willingness to love her boldness and willingness to love her boldness and willingness to stand stand stand up for things that's inspiring to me i i up for things that's inspiring to me i i up for things that's inspiring to me i i tend to be a little bit more bold myself tend to be a little bit more bold myself tend to be a little bit more bold myself but but but i see you heard i think wow there's a i see you heard i think wow there's a i see you heard i think wow there's a lot of room for growth in that so lot of room for growth in that so lot of room for growth in that so um i just i i love people like that um i just i i love people like that um i just i i love people like that wow well gavin uh so thank you so much i wow well gavin uh so thank you so much i wow well gavin uh so thank you so much i really appreciate your time really appreciate your time really appreciate your time and your leadership and uh this next and your leadership and uh this next and your leadership and uh this next season of season of season of of your ministry of helping others get of your ministry of helping others get of your ministry of helping others get better better better and and lead through change and all that and and lead through change and all that and and lead through change and all that we just uh we just uh we just uh we wish you the best man thank you for we wish you the best man thank you for we wish you the best man thank you for who you are and what you do who you are and what you do who you are and what you do thanks so much i appreciate it yeah i'm thanks so much i appreciate it yeah i'm thanks so much i appreciate it yeah i'm really looking forward to really looking forward to really looking forward to uh watching you from the sidelines and uh watching you from the sidelines and uh watching you from the sidelines and see what happens here in the next see what happens here in the next see what happens here in the next next few years and uh it's pretty cool next few years and uh it's pretty cool next few years and uh it's pretty cool thanks kevin thanks kevin thanks kevin uh dr gavin adams thanks so much for uh dr gavin adams thanks so much for uh dr gavin adams thanks so much for being our guest being our guest being our guest [Music] [Music] [Music] today