How to Personalize Your Church's Digital Ministry | Bryce Ashlin-Mayo

[Music] [Music] whether they engage online or in person whether they engage online or in person whether they engage online or in person as long as they're experiencing as long as they're experiencing as long as they're experiencing christian community engaged in ministry christian community engaged in ministry christian community engaged in ministry and there's certain parts of the things and there's certain parts of the things and there's certain parts of the things that i think the church needs to do that that i think the church needs to do that that i think the church needs to do that maybe has an embodied nature to it and maybe has an embodied nature to it and maybe has an embodied nature to it and there's parts of communion i think that there's parts of communion i think that there's parts of communion i think that function a bit that way but i i just function a bit that way but i i just function a bit that way but i i just think like we just need to reframe the think like we just need to reframe the think like we just need to reframe the question of what do i want and i want question of what do i want and i want question of what do i want and i want people engaged can that happen in the people engaged can that happen in the people engaged can that happen in the per in the room yes can it happen online per in the room yes can it happen online per in the room yes can it happen online absolutely and i give you countless absolutely and i give you countless absolutely and i give you countless examples to when that has but that's examples to when that has but that's examples to when that has but that's that's that should be in my view the the that's that should be in my view the the that's that should be in my view the the pastoral end goal so maybe that's a bit pastoral end goal so maybe that's a bit pastoral end goal so maybe that's a bit of a way to to question a little bit of of a way to to question a little bit of of a way to to question a little bit of the premise of the question but also a the premise of the question but also a the premise of the question but also a bit of the the the goal of what i think bit of the the the goal of what i think bit of the the the goal of what i think ministries should be in person or online ministries should be in person or online ministries should be in person or online this is season three episode four of the this is season three episode four of the this is season three episode four of the missional marketing podcast my name is missional marketing podcast my name is missional marketing podcast my name is bart blair i'm the co-host of the show bart blair i'm the co-host of the show bart blair i'm the co-host of the show and i want to thank you for tuning in we and i want to thank you for tuning in we and i want to thank you for tuning in we know that you have lots of options about know that you have lots of options about know that you have lots of options about the podcast that you listen to and the the podcast that you listen to and the the podcast that you listen to and the fact that you let jason and me and our fact that you let jason and me and our fact that you let jason and me and our guests into your ears means the world to guests into your ears means the world to guests into your ears means the world to us our goal with this podcast is to help us our goal with this podcast is to help us our goal with this podcast is to help your church grow by leveraging digital your church grow by leveraging digital your church grow by leveraging digital marketing and effective communications marketing and effective communications marketing and effective communications and regardless of what seat you sit in and regardless of what seat you sit in and regardless of what seat you sit in on the bus of your ministry whether on the bus of your ministry whether on the bus of your ministry whether you're a pastor executive pastor you're a pastor executive pastor you're a pastor executive pastor communications director if you're communications director if you're communications director if you're full-time part-time or volunteer in your full-time part-time or volunteer in your full-time part-time or volunteer in your church i'm confident that today's church i'm confident that today's church i'm confident that today's conversation is really going to be conversation is really going to be conversation is really going to be beneficial for you jason and i recently beneficial for you jason and i recently beneficial for you jason and i recently sat down with bryce ashland mayo who is sat down with bryce ashland mayo who is sat down with bryce ashland mayo who is the dean of theology at ambrose the dean of theology at ambrose the dean of theology at ambrose university in calgary alberta canada university in calgary alberta canada university in calgary alberta canada he's also the author of a book called he's also the author of a book called he's also the author of a book called digital mission and in today's

digital mission and in today's digital mission and in today's conversation uh we are sharing with you conversation uh we are sharing with you conversation uh we are sharing with you some insights on how you can some insights on how you can some insights on how you can make your digital ministry more personal make your digital ministry more personal make your digital ministry more personal how you can use digital tools to reach how you can use digital tools to reach how you can use digital tools to reach more people online and why it is so more people online and why it is so more people online and why it is so important for your church that you're important for your church that you're important for your church that you're doing so i think you're going to find doing so i think you're going to find doing so i think you're going to find this conversation really interesting this conversation really interesting this conversation really interesting really insightful a little bit of a really insightful a little bit of a really insightful a little bit of a different angle than where a lot of our different angle than where a lot of our different angle than where a lot of our other conversations have gone and where other conversations have gone and where other conversations have gone and where they've started from um if you haven't they've started from um if you haven't they've started from um if you haven't uh left us a rating or review we'd uh left us a rating or review we'd uh left us a rating or review we'd really appreciate you doing that and if really appreciate you doing that and if really appreciate you doing that and if you're not subscribed to this podcast you're not subscribed to this podcast you're not subscribed to this podcast wherever you listen or watch i want to wherever you listen or watch i want to wherever you listen or watch i want to remind you to do that your reviews uh remind you to do that your reviews uh remind you to do that your reviews uh and your comments your feedback actually and your comments your feedback actually and your comments your feedback actually help more people find the podcast so help more people find the podcast so help more people find the podcast so we'd really appreciate you doing that we'd really appreciate you doing that we'd really appreciate you doing that and if you haven't checked out our and if you haven't checked out our and if you haven't checked out our website lately make sure that you do so website lately make sure that you do so website lately make sure that you do so we've got lots of new content under our we've got lots of new content under our we've got lots of new content under our blog blog blog section and just lots of great stuff section and just lots of great stuff section and just lots of great stuff going on over there you can get there by going on over there you can get there by going on over there you can get there by going to going to going to missionalmarketing.com and learn more missionalmarketing.com and learn more missionalmarketing.com and learn more about how we serve churches all across about how we serve churches all across about how we serve churches all across the united states and canada and even the united states and canada and even the united states and canada and even some around the globe and love to be some around the globe and love to be some around the globe and love to be able to partner with you and your church able to partner with you and your church able to partner with you and your church to help your church reach more people to help your church reach more people to help your church reach more people online anyway online anyway online anyway with all that being said with all that being said with all that being said here is my co-host jason hamrock and our here is my co-host jason hamrock and our here is my co-host jason hamrock and our recent interview with bryce ashland mayo recent interview with bryce ashland mayo recent interview with bryce ashland mayo well hey bryce welcome to the show it's well hey bryce welcome to the show it's well hey bryce welcome to the show it's so nice to meet you how you doing so nice to meet you how you doing so nice to meet you how you doing doing great and yourself doing great and yourself doing great and yourself i'm doing wonderful it's a beautiful day i'm doing wonderful it's a beautiful day i'm doing wonderful it's a beautiful day here in the states and the reason why i here in the states and the reason why i here in the states and the reason why i said that is because you're not here in said that is because you're not here in said that is because you're not here in the states where are you the states where are you the states where are you no i'm in calgary alberta canada where

no i'm in calgary alberta canada where no i'm in calgary alberta canada where it's a little overcast it's a little overcast it's a little overcast probably going to get a little bit of probably going to get a little bit of probably going to get a little bit of rain but it's been a hot uh couple of rain but it's been a hot uh couple of rain but it's been a hot uh couple of weeks so we need the rain so i'm not weeks so we need the rain so i'm not weeks so we need the rain so i'm not going to complain okay so hopefully wash going to complain okay so hopefully wash going to complain okay so hopefully wash off that heat he's in america's hats off that heat he's in america's hats off that heat he's in america's hats alberta montana's you're the two right the two okay i you're the two right the two okay i spent 20 years in canada so i can still spent 20 years in canada so i can still spent 20 years in canada so i can still bag on canada a little bit i'm not going bag on canada a little bit i'm not going bag on canada a little bit i'm not going to say that but bart i suppose you can to say that but bart i suppose you can to say that but bart i suppose you can because you you did live in canada so because you you did live in canada so because you you did live in canada so that's okay i did i lived in the same that's okay i did i lived in the same that's okay i did i lived in the same the same province in alberta that bryce the same province in alberta that bryce the same province in alberta that bryce lives in i was there for about seven and lives in i was there for about seven and lives in i was there for about seven and a half years and um i you know what i a half years and um i you know what i a half years and um i you know what i really appreciated the time that i had really appreciated the time that i had really appreciated the time that i had in canada and i really appreciate the in canada and i really appreciate the in canada and i really appreciate the opportunity to hang out with canadians opportunity to hang out with canadians opportunity to hang out with canadians on our show on our show on our show interestingly enough it seems like about interestingly enough it seems like about interestingly enough it seems like about every third or fourth episodes we have every third or fourth episodes we have every third or fourth episodes we have these days we have another fine canadian these days we have another fine canadian these days we have another fine canadian on this right so we're welcoming you on this right so we're welcoming you on this right so we're welcoming you bryce another fine canadian to the show bryce another fine canadian to the show bryce another fine canadian to the show yeah just to know many of your most yeah just to know many of your most yeah just to know many of your most favorite movie stars are canadian favorite movie stars are canadian favorite movie stars are canadian just as they are just just throwing it just as they are just just throwing it just as they are just just throwing it out there so yeah and most of my out there so yeah and most of my out there so yeah and most of my favorite and most my favorite hockey favorite and most my favorite hockey favorite and most my favorite hockey players too so here you go awesome players too so here you go awesome players too so here you go awesome okay jason let's get on let's get let's okay jason let's get on let's get let's okay jason let's get on let's get let's go to the topic go to the topic go to the topic uh yeah bryce uh so tell our audience uh yeah bryce uh so tell our audience uh yeah bryce uh so tell our audience because they maybe haven't heard you a because they maybe haven't heard you a because they maybe haven't heard you a little bit about your background what little bit about your background what little bit about your background what you do that'll help us set the you do that'll help us set the you do that'll help us set the conversation for today conversation for today conversation for today yeah sure that sounds great uh my name yeah sure that sounds great uh my name yeah sure that sounds great uh my name is brexit again uh i'm from calgary is brexit again uh i'm from calgary is brexit again uh i'm from calgary canada i've served as a local church canada i've served as a local church canada i've served as a local church pastor for 25 years and have a couple pastor for 25 years and have a couple pastor for 25 years and have a couple different provinces here in canada in a different provinces here in canada in a different provinces here in canada in a couple different positions couple different positions couple different positions until most recently in march i took the

until most recently in march i took the until most recently in march i took the role of dean of theology role of dean of theology role of dean of theology here where i am at ambrose university in here where i am at ambrose university in here where i am at ambrose university in calgary so ambrose university is about a calgary so ambrose university is about a calgary so ambrose university is about a thousand students uh here in calgary thousand students uh here in calgary thousand students uh here in calgary it's a christian university also has an it's a christian university also has an it's a christian university also has an embedded ministry training school and embedded ministry training school and embedded ministry training school and seminary those are the areas i give seminary those are the areas i give seminary those are the areas i give leadership to here at the school's dean leadership to here at the school's dean leadership to here at the school's dean of theology of theology of theology my i have a strong interest in uh online my i have a strong interest in uh online my i have a strong interest in uh online ministry and and digital ministry uh ministry and and digital ministry uh ministry and and digital ministry uh things i about 10 years ago did my things i about 10 years ago did my things i about 10 years ago did my doctoral work at george fox starting doctoral work at george fox starting doctoral work at george fox starting with leonard suite and did lots of uh with leonard suite and did lots of uh with leonard suite and did lots of uh research and train uh research and study research and train uh research and study research and train uh research and study and wrote my dissertation on the impact and wrote my dissertation on the impact and wrote my dissertation on the impact of social media on preaching of social media on preaching of social media on preaching and uh yeah and over the last 10 years and uh yeah and over the last 10 years and uh yeah and over the last 10 years i've taught here at ambrose i've taught here at ambrose i've taught here at ambrose different denominations all of which different denominations all of which different denominations all of which like all things in the pandemic like all things in the pandemic like all things in the pandemic accelerated uh when everybody was asking accelerated uh when everybody was asking accelerated uh when everybody was asking lots of questions of what does it look lots of questions of what does it look lots of questions of what does it look like to do uh ministry uh online and so like to do uh ministry uh online and so like to do uh ministry uh online and so in the last couple of years i've done in the last couple of years i've done in the last couple of years i've done that a ton and part of the reason why i that a ton and part of the reason why i that a ton and part of the reason why i took this role is how do we equip uh took this role is how do we equip uh took this role is how do we equip uh kind of men and women uh for the work of kind of men and women uh for the work of kind of men and women uh for the work of of ministry particularly in this new of ministry particularly in this new of ministry particularly in this new changing digital age so that's a little changing digital age so that's a little changing digital age so that's a little bit my background my passion all right bit my background my passion all right bit my background my passion all right yeah i mean i think it's not foreign to yeah i mean i think it's not foreign to yeah i mean i think it's not foreign to everybody that you know if you're everybody that you know if you're everybody that you know if you're listening and you working to church listening and you working to church listening and you working to church you've gone digital you already have you've gone digital you already have you've gone digital you already have been digital you've just more emphasis been digital you've just more emphasis been digital you've just more emphasis on going more digital but i want to ask on going more digital but i want to ask on going more digital but i want to ask this question because i really want your this question because i really want your this question because i really want your perspective on it you know why do you perspective on it you know why do you perspective on it you know why do you believe that it's important that believe that it's important that believe that it's important that churches have a digital ministry what churches have a digital ministry what churches have a digital ministry what does that look like and just from your does that look like and just from your does that look like and just from your words

words words yeah so like my my perspective on that yeah so like my my perspective on that yeah so like my my perspective on that is if you were to like go back in a time is if you were to like go back in a time is if you were to like go back in a time machine like 500 years machine like 500 years machine like 500 years and uh when when the gutenberg press was and uh when when the gutenberg press was and uh when when the gutenberg press was was invented and all of a sudden books was invented and all of a sudden books was invented and all of a sudden books were available you'd have had a ton of were available you'd have had a ton of were available you'd have had a ton of people who would have said all of the people who would have said all of the people who would have said all of the same critiques they would have now on same critiques they would have now on same critiques they would have now on on uh in fact you could like you could on uh in fact you could like you could on uh in fact you could like you could actually find this in in recorded actually find this in in recorded actually find this in in recorded history where people would say that you history where people would say that you history where people would say that you know books are going to make people know books are going to make people know books are going to make people stupid everyone's going to forget the stupid everyone's going to forget the stupid everyone's going to forget the oral traditions worship is going to oral traditions worship is going to oral traditions worship is going to change because now people don't have to change because now people don't have to change because now people don't have to memorize songs or scripture or the memorize songs or scripture or the memorize songs or scripture or the liturgy it'll all be written like it's liturgy it'll all be written like it's liturgy it'll all be written like it's going to change everything and all of going to change everything and all of going to change everything and all of the same fears that we're experiencing the same fears that we're experiencing the same fears that we're experiencing today existed then and yet now we would today existed then and yet now we would today existed then and yet now we would never tell somebody you should you never tell somebody you should you never tell somebody you should you should like forego books to do ministry should like forego books to do ministry should like forego books to do ministry like that would be crazy or you should like that would be crazy or you should like that would be crazy or you should like give up on how we do liturgy or like give up on how we do liturgy or like give up on how we do liturgy or church or worship music or preaching all church or worship music or preaching all church or worship music or preaching all of which we all all today of which we all all today of which we all all today understand through the lens of us having understand through the lens of us having understand through the lens of us having our own printed text which is a fairly our own printed text which is a fairly our own printed text which is a fairly recent dynamic in human history so for recent dynamic in human history so for recent dynamic in human history so for us i just think as we move into the us i just think as we move into the us i just think as we move into the future digital is part of that and we're future digital is part of that and we're future digital is part of that and we're just right now i think in the infancy of just right now i think in the infancy of just right now i think in the infancy of what digital will look like so i always what digital will look like so i always what digital will look like so i always challenge people for whatever their challenge people for whatever their challenge people for whatever their critiques are to recognize you can't critiques are to recognize you can't critiques are to recognize you can't critique a long lens through a very critique a long lens through a very critique a long lens through a very narrow perspective it's going to take us narrow perspective it's going to take us narrow perspective it's going to take us time to learn to digitally crawl which i time to learn to digitally crawl which i time to learn to digitally crawl which i don't think we even learned how to do don't think we even learned how to do don't think we even learned how to do yet before we can learn to digitally run yet before we can learn to digitally run yet before we can learn to digitally run because the technology is changing so because the technology is changing so because the technology is changing so fast and we're so early on in the in the fast and we're so early on in the in the fast and we're so early on in the in the iteration of what digital looks like in

iteration of what digital looks like in iteration of what digital looks like in the scheme of things yeah i agree with the scheme of things yeah i agree with the scheme of things yeah i agree with you and i it is interesting how uh you you and i it is interesting how uh you you and i it is interesting how uh you know when we're when we're talking to know when we're when we're talking to know when we're when we're talking to churches you're talking to churches churches you're talking to churches churches you're talking to churches and they say they have a digital and they say they have a digital and they say they have a digital ministry and for some reason they don't ministry and for some reason they don't ministry and for some reason they don't say this but it's what they're thinking say this but it's what they're thinking say this but it's what they're thinking they want to basically parallel it they they want to basically parallel it they they want to basically parallel it they they think hey we should be able to do they think hey we should be able to do they think hey we should be able to do online ministry just as if we're doing online ministry just as if we're doing online ministry just as if we're doing in person ministry in person ministry in person ministry and i'm thinking that's not possible so and i'm thinking that's not possible so and i'm thinking that's not possible so what are some of those misconceptions what are some of those misconceptions what are some of those misconceptions that churches have about that churches have about that churches have about implementing and using the digital implementing and using the digital implementing and using the digital ministry ministry ministry yeah this is that's a great question yeah this is that's a great question yeah this is that's a great question this is uh the premise to my book this is uh the premise to my book this is uh the premise to my book digital mission where i make the digital mission where i make the digital mission where i make the argument that part of our challenge in argument that part of our challenge in argument that part of our challenge in the pandemic the pandemic the pandemic which which which which saw like all churches everywhere which saw like all churches everywhere which saw like all churches everywhere almost instantaneously instantaneously almost instantaneously instantaneously almost instantaneously instantaneously with tons of excitement by the way if with tons of excitement by the way if with tons of excitement by the way if like you can remember back then i heard like you can remember back then i heard like you can remember back then i heard lots of people this is going to change lots of people this is going to change lots of people this is going to change church forever like we're just going to church forever like we're just going to church forever like we're just going to explode people from everywhere is going explode people from everywhere is going explode people from everywhere is going to go online that lasted like that to go online that lasted like that to go online that lasted like that excitement lasted about two weeks but excitement lasted about two weeks but excitement lasted about two weeks but that excitement uh like it's it's what that excitement uh like it's it's what that excitement uh like it's it's what drove everyone instantly online and we drove everyone instantly online and we drove everyone instantly online and we by doing so by doing so by doing so this is just my assessment we made the this is just my assessment we made the this is just my assessment we made the classic church mistake and ended up classic church mistake and ended up classic church mistake and ended up practicing unintentionally as usually practicing unintentionally as usually practicing unintentionally as usually often is the case a digital colonialism often is the case a digital colonialism often is the case a digital colonialism which just means that we went online and which just means that we went online and which just means that we went online and forgot that actually we were going into forgot that actually we were going into forgot that actually we were going into a different culture a different culture a different culture and had to change actually how we and had to change actually how we and had to change actually how we intersect with that culture how we intersect with that culture how we intersect with that culture how we communicate because people understand communicate because people understand communicate because people understand truth differently in different cultures truth differently in different cultures truth differently in different cultures that's definitely the case from in that's definitely the case from in that's definitely the case from in person to digital people understand

person to digital people understand person to digital people understand authority differently people understand authority differently people understand authority differently people understand relationships differently they build relationships differently they build relationships differently they build community differently and so surprise we community differently and so surprise we community differently and so surprise we did everything we were doing in person did everything we were doing in person did everything we were doing in person and just put a camera in front of it and and just put a camera in front of it and and just put a camera in front of it and pretended like we were like using pretended like we were like using pretended like we were like using technology and it'd be the same as if we technology and it'd be the same as if we technology and it'd be the same as if we took what we do here and just imported took what we do here and just imported took what we do here and just imported it to some place in west africa or to it to some place in west africa or to it to some place in west africa or to asia or latin america and assumed it asia or latin america and assumed it asia or latin america and assumed it would just work and surprised it didn't would just work and surprised it didn't would just work and surprised it didn't um and i think we need we've discovered um and i think we need we've discovered um and i think we need we've discovered and i think we know now what what many and i think we know now what what many and i think we know now what what many people throughout probably the last like people throughout probably the last like people throughout probably the last like i don't know 40 or 50 years have been i don't know 40 or 50 years have been i don't know 40 or 50 years have been looking at through media ecology that looking at through media ecology that looking at through media ecology that media actually changes things and the media actually changes things and the media actually changes things and the dynamic of like digital culture is dynamic of like digital culture is dynamic of like digital culture is unique and what does it look like to um unique and what does it look like to um unique and what does it look like to um pre-create our methodologies for online pre-create our methodologies for online pre-create our methodologies for online ministries as we move into the future ministries as we move into the future ministries as we move into the future okay one more question for you then bart okay one more question for you then bart okay one more question for you then bart will jump in here yeah so whenever i will jump in here yeah so whenever i will jump in here yeah so whenever i talk to churches in fact i did it today talk to churches in fact i did it today talk to churches in fact i did it today this morning i was talking to church in this morning i was talking to church in this morning i was talking to church in california and i try to paint the california and i try to paint the california and i try to paint the picture because they're going how can we picture because they're going how can we picture because they're going how can we get more people digitally engaged with get more people digitally engaged with get more people digitally engaged with us so that us so that us so that they show up in person they show up in person they show up in person i go good question um you know there's i i go good question um you know there's i i go good question um you know there's i like to speak in terms of a funnel right like to speak in terms of a funnel right like to speak in terms of a funnel right you kind of have a funnel as you're and you kind of have a funnel as you're and you kind of have a funnel as you're and there's there's different layers or there's there's different layers or there's there's different layers or rings to that funnel you know and so rings to that funnel you know and so rings to that funnel you know and so everything you do digitally if you're everything you do digitally if you're everything you do digitally if you're doing advertising it's reaching a whole doing advertising it's reaching a whole doing advertising it's reaching a whole lot of people so that some will take the lot of people so that some will take the lot of people so that some will take the next step and the next step for the next next step and the next step for the next next step and the next step for the next step and maybe they'll end up in a seat step and maybe they'll end up in a seat step and maybe they'll end up in a seat sure so that's kind of how i talk to it sure so that's kind of how i talk to it sure so that's kind of how i talk to it but i think a lot of uh churches today but i think a lot of uh churches today but i think a lot of uh churches today like they're still you know pastors are

like they're still you know pastors are like they're still you know pastors are very very motivated very very motivated very very motivated to having people sit in a seat and to having people sit in a seat and to having people sit in a seat and rightfully so rightfully so rightfully so um but how can digital ministry support um but how can digital ministry support um but how can digital ministry support that and from your perspective and and that and from your perspective and and that and from your perspective and and how can we accomplish how can we accomplish how can we accomplish reaching people online to get them into reaching people online to get them into reaching people online to get them into a seat a seat a seat oh that's a see this this question has oh that's a see this this question has oh that's a see this this question has about 10 layers to it uh and i and i i about 10 layers to it uh and i and i i about 10 layers to it uh and i and i i would probably challenge some of the would probably challenge some of the would probably challenge some of the premise of the question premise of the question premise of the question because i i would challenge the thought because i i would challenge the thought because i i would challenge the thought of like first the thought of like of like first the thought of like of like first the thought of like confusing the ends with the means so as confusing the ends with the means so as confusing the ends with the means so as a pastor is my goal ultimately to get a pastor is my goal ultimately to get a pastor is my goal ultimately to get people in the seat in my building people in the seat in my building people in the seat in my building because i think if it is it actually is because i think if it is it actually is because i think if it is it actually is because because because that's how we viewed our matrix of that's how we viewed our matrix of that's how we viewed our matrix of success in the past but digital actually success in the past but digital actually success in the past but digital actually has wiped his like all our dashboards has wiped his like all our dashboards has wiped his like all our dashboards are broken so if somehow if i have to are broken so if somehow if i have to are broken so if somehow if i have to get people in there to get their get people in there to get their get people in there to get their immediate response from being in the immediate response from being in the immediate response from being in the room and how they're feeling or the room and how they're feeling or the room and how they're feeling or the foyer conversation that strokes my eagle foyer conversation that strokes my eagle foyer conversation that strokes my eagle our ego telling me how great the sermon our ego telling me how great the sermon our ego telling me how great the sermon was if those are the pieces and so i'm was if those are the pieces and so i'm was if those are the pieces and so i'm trying to get people so i can experience trying to get people so i can experience trying to get people so i can experience that i'm not saying that that's the case that i'm not saying that that's the case that i'm not saying that that's the case for everybody but if that's the case for everybody but if that's the case for everybody but if that's the case then actually i might actually be um then actually i might actually be um then actually i might actually be um confusing the means with the ends but if confusing the means with the ends but if confusing the means with the ends but if the end says i want to have people the end says i want to have people the end says i want to have people encounter the living christ experience encounter the living christ experience encounter the living christ experience the gospel that will transform their the gospel that will transform their the gospel that will transform their life experience christian community um life experience christian community um life experience christian community um and if and if and if some of that happens online that some of that happens online that some of that happens online that transitions to some of it happening in transitions to some of it happening in transitions to some of it happening in person or if all of that happens online person or if all of that happens online person or if all of that happens online and i can have somebody who has and i can have somebody who has and i can have somebody who has experienced the risen christ and experienced the risen christ and experienced the risen christ and experiences christian community and as

experiences christian community and as experiences christian community and as being discipled online like is that not being discipled online like is that not being discipled online like is that not as good as the person being in the room as good as the person being in the room as good as the person being in the room because i think actually in the past because i think actually in the past because i think actually in the past we've had a bunch of people in the room we've had a bunch of people in the room we've had a bunch of people in the room that were just consumers just in a that were just consumers just in a that were just consumers just in a different way as their consumers online different way as their consumers online different way as their consumers online the thought that online ministry has the thought that online ministry has the thought that online ministry has created a bunch of christian consumers created a bunch of christian consumers created a bunch of christian consumers is has like um kind of intentional is has like um kind of intentional is has like um kind of intentional historic ignorance because we had the historic ignorance because we had the historic ignorance because we had the same people in the pews and they just same people in the pews and they just same people in the pews and they just showed up late and left early and didn't showed up late and left early and didn't showed up late and left early and didn't engage in christian community and didn't engage in christian community and didn't engage in christian community and didn't give and came once a month or once every give and came once a month or once every give and came once a month or once every two months but we can't celebrate that two months but we can't celebrate that two months but we can't celebrate that as the epitome of success we need to get as the epitome of success we need to get as the epitome of success we need to get them people back in the room them people back in the room them people back in the room um whether they engage online or in um whether they engage online or in um whether they engage online or in person as long as they're experiencing person as long as they're experiencing person as long as they're experiencing christian community engaged in ministry christian community engaged in ministry christian community engaged in ministry and there's certain parts of the things and there's certain parts of the things and there's certain parts of the things that i think the church needs to do that that i think the church needs to do that that i think the church needs to do that maybe has an embodied nature to it and maybe has an embodied nature to it and maybe has an embodied nature to it and there's parts of communion i think that there's parts of communion i think that there's parts of communion i think that function a bit that way but i i just function a bit that way but i i just function a bit that way but i i just think like we just need to reframe the think like we just need to reframe the think like we just need to reframe the question of what do i want and i want question of what do i want and i want question of what do i want and i want people engaged can that happen in the people engaged can that happen in the people engaged can that happen in the per in the room yes can it happen online per in the room yes can it happen online per in the room yes can it happen online absolutely and i give you countless absolutely and i give you countless absolutely and i give you countless examples to when that has examples to when that has examples to when that has but that's that's that should be in my but that's that's that should be in my but that's that's that should be in my view the pastoral end goal so maybe view the pastoral end goal so maybe view the pastoral end goal so maybe that's a bit of a way to to question a that's a bit of a way to to question a that's a bit of a way to to question a little bit of the premise of the little bit of the premise of the little bit of the premise of the question but also a bit of the the the question but also a bit of the the the question but also a bit of the the the goal of what i think goal of what i think goal of what i think ministries should be in person or online ministries should be in person or online ministries should be in person or online all right i'm driving i'm driving my all right i'm driving i'm driving my all right i'm driving i'm driving my ministry bus here okay if you're if ministry bus here okay if you're if ministry bus here okay if you're if you're watching on youtube you see me you're watching on youtube you see me you're watching on youtube you see me driving my ministry bus but if you're driving my ministry bus but if you're driving my ministry bus but if you're listening on i've never seen anyone listening on i've never seen anyone listening on i've never seen anyone drive a ministry today i'm driving my drive a ministry today i'm driving my drive a ministry today i'm driving my ministry bus and i look down oh my my

ministry bus and i look down oh my my ministry bus and i look down oh my my dashboard is broken you just told me my dashboard is broken you just told me my dashboard is broken you just told me my dashboard is broken and so i'm looking dashboard is broken and so i'm looking dashboard is broken and so i'm looking at this one over here that says at this one over here that says at this one over here that says butts in seats and that one's broken butts in seats and that one's broken butts in seats and that one's broken this one over here that says this one over here that says this one over here that says bucks in the bucket and that one's bucks in the bucket and that one's bucks in the bucket and that one's broken and this one over here that says broken and this one over here that says broken and this one over here that says baptisms that one's broken okay i need baptisms that one's broken okay i need baptisms that one's broken okay i need to i'm pulling the bus over all right to i'm pulling the bus over all right to i'm pulling the bus over all right pull the bus over i need to rebuild my pull the bus over i need to rebuild my pull the bus over i need to rebuild my dashboard uh dashboard uh dashboard uh if i'm going to rebuild my dashboard if i'm going to rebuild my dashboard if i'm going to rebuild my dashboard based on the things that you're kind of based on the things that you're kind of based on the things that you're kind of extrapolating as it relates to extrapolating as it relates to extrapolating as it relates to engagement and connection and community engagement and connection and community engagement and connection and community and those types of things and those types of things and those types of things i've got to do two things one is i have i've got to do two things one is i have i've got to do two things one is i have to to to decide decide decide what the most important things are that what the most important things are that what the most important things are that i'm going to be measuring and i i want i'm going to be measuring and i i want i'm going to be measuring and i i want you to speak to that i want you to speak you to speak to that i want you to speak you to speak to that i want you to speak to that as as as pastor and professor to that as as as pastor and professor to that as as as pastor and professor right you're you've got both of those right you're you've got both of those right you're you've got both of those things you've been a pastor you're a things you've been a pastor you're a things you've been a pastor you're a professor vice versa professor vice versa professor vice versa um um um but i also have to do the heavy lifting but i also have to do the heavy lifting but i also have to do the heavy lifting which is this is probably the heaviest which is this is probably the heaviest which is this is probably the heaviest lift which is lift which is lift which is having the self-confidence and the having the self-confidence and the having the self-confidence and the courage to say those are the things that courage to say those are the things that courage to say those are the things that i'm going to let measure the success of i'm going to let measure the success of i'm going to let measure the success of my ministry because when i go to the my ministry because when i go to the my ministry because when i go to the next pastor's conference pastors are next pastor's conference pastors are next pastor's conference pastors are still asking me so what are you running still asking me so what are you running still asking me so what are you running on sunday on sunday on sunday so what do you you know that what are so what do you you know that what are so what do you you know that what are what are your numbers that is still the what are your numbers that is still the what are your numbers that is still the measurement tool by which i'm engaging measurement tool by which i'm engaging measurement tool by which i'm engaging the majority of my personal success it's the majority of my personal success it's the majority of my personal success it's the way my peers look at me the way my peers look at me the way my peers look at me um how how do i overcome that dude that's such a complicated question dude that's such a complicated question so i think first it's hard to do because so i think first it's hard to do because so i think first it's hard to do because so much of our ego is tied to the growth

so much of our ego is tied to the growth so much of our ego is tied to the growth of things that's why like you can talk of things that's why like you can talk of things that's why like you can talk to 10 different people and they'll use to 10 different people and they'll use to 10 different people and they'll use 10 different multipliers for views 10 different multipliers for views 10 different multipliers for views telling people live in their seats and telling people live in their seats and telling people live in their seats and and you can numbers numbers now don't and you can numbers numbers now don't and you can numbers numbers now don't really mean really mean really mean anything it's so complicated when it anything it's so complicated when it anything it's so complicated when it comes to digital numbers i mean you can comes to digital numbers i mean you can comes to digital numbers i mean you can measure everything in fact i challenge measure everything in fact i challenge measure everything in fact i challenge pastors like if you get ever get pastors like if you get ever get pastors like if you get ever get stressed about this just watch the views stressed about this just watch the views stressed about this just watch the views because you can see in your live stream because you can see in your live stream because you can see in your live stream when people stop listening to you it when people stop listening to you it when people stop listening to you it could be quite depressing i had a conversation with a pastor one i had a conversation with a pastor one time many many years ago who would time many many years ago who would time many many years ago who would literally count people literally count people literally count people in worship attendance in worship attendance in worship attendance who would have been there who would have been there who would have been there if they weren't doing this other thing if they weren't doing this other thing if they weren't doing this other thing yeah like he would go oh well if they if yeah like he would go oh well if they if yeah like he would go oh well if they if they if they hadn't been at that event they if they hadn't been at that event they if they hadn't been at that event or that family reunion or on vacation or that family reunion or on vacation or that family reunion or on vacation they would have been here so we're going they would have been here so we're going they would have been here so we're going to still count them in our numbers i'm to still count them in our numbers i'm to still count them in our numbers i'm like what that's like what that's like what that's that's crazy they're not there okay that's crazy they're not there okay that's crazy they're not there okay sorry like our denomination had like their like our denomination had like their like yearly statistic things and people like yearly statistic things and people like yearly statistic things and people just interpreted differently so one of just interpreted differently so one of just interpreted differently so one of my pastor friends was like people that my pastor friends was like people that my pastor friends was like people that worship well everything is worshipped so worship well everything is worshipped so worship well everything is worshipped so everything we do in the church is everything we do in the church is everything we do in the church is worship and so like they're not like worship and so like they're not like worship and so like they're not like this church has never had that many this church has never had that many this church has never had that many people on it on a sunday and they say i people on it on a sunday and they say i people on it on a sunday and they say i just interpreted it differently and how just interpreted it differently and how just interpreted it differently and how many people were engaged in worship on many people were engaged in worship on many people were engaged in worship on on the weekend uh or on the week during on the weekend uh or on the week during on the weekend uh or on the week during the week and so i think that's the the week and so i think that's the the week and so i think that's the challenge right like we all have a challenge right like we all have a challenge right like we all have a fixation with numbers but i think this fixation with numbers but i think this fixation with numbers but i think this is the this is the potential gift we'll is the this is the potential gift we'll is the this is the potential gift we'll give to the church i'm not sure the give to the church i'm not sure the give to the church i'm not sure the church if she will

church if she will church if she will embrace this gift but this is the embrace this gift but this is the embrace this gift but this is the potential gift because if the church if potential gift because if the church if potential gift because if the church if the pandemic taught anything the pandemic taught anything the pandemic taught anything it taught us that not only is the is not it taught us that not only is the is not it taught us that not only is the is not only can the church change only can the church change only can the church change she is really good at it when it senses she is really good at it when it senses she is really good at it when it senses there's a problem there's a problem there's a problem like the church was the fast just think like the church was the fast just think like the church was the fast just think about it for a moment in the midst of about it for a moment in the midst of about it for a moment in the midst of the pandemic the church was the fastest the pandemic the church was the fastest the pandemic the church was the fastest organization on the planet to change organization on the planet to change organization on the planet to change online online online it's faster than any organization or it's faster than any organization or it's faster than any organization or other business in the world it made the other business in the world it made the other business in the world it made the pivot faster than anything else pivot faster than anything else pivot faster than anything else however the church has been the slowest however the church has been the slowest however the church has been the slowest to respond to a discipleship crisis to a to respond to a discipleship crisis to a to respond to a discipleship crisis to a leadership crisis to an evangelist leadership crisis to an evangelist leadership crisis to an evangelist evangelism crisis evangelism crisis evangelism crisis which tells me that we actually don't which tells me that we actually don't which tells me that we actually don't really think those things are problems really think those things are problems really think those things are problems we're actually quite okay with them and we're actually quite okay with them and we're actually quite okay with them and the worst thing the church can do the worst thing the church can do the worst thing the church can do post-pandemic is post-pandemic is post-pandemic is go back to the way things were um go back to the way things were um go back to the way things were um assuming that we that like if the assuming that we that like if the assuming that we that like if the thought of like we want to go back to thought of like we want to go back to thought of like we want to go back to pre-pandemic dynamics what pre-pandemic dynamics what pre-pandemic dynamics what like at no point in any meeting in like at no point in any meeting in like at no point in any meeting in denominations or conferences did we ever denominations or conferences did we ever denominations or conferences did we ever say it was good we were all complaining say it was good we were all complaining say it was good we were all complaining how horrible it was yet it's what we how horrible it was yet it's what we how horrible it was yet it's what we know so we want to go back we're just know so we want to go back we're just know so we want to go back we're just like the like the like the israelites who left egypt we want to go israelites who left egypt we want to go israelites who left egypt we want to go back to what we were even though even back to what we were even though even back to what we were even though even though like what it was was horrible but though like what it was was horrible but though like what it was was horrible but it's what we know so it's just this this it's what we know so it's just this this it's what we know so it's just this this human tendency to do that so i think human tendency to do that so i think human tendency to do that so i think this is like the moment the church can this is like the moment the church can this is like the moment the church can actually re-embrace a dashboard that actually re-embrace a dashboard that actually re-embrace a dashboard that would say what are the things that we're would say what are the things that we're would say what are the things that we're going to count how are we going to like

going to count how are we going to like going to count how are we going to like acknowledge that some things that we acknowledge that some things that we acknowledge that some things that we should be counting aren't actually should be counting aren't actually should be counting aren't actually countable in the same way but what are countable in the same way but what are countable in the same way but what are we going to use as those metrics of we going to use as those metrics of we going to use as those metrics of success and not go back to the old ways success and not go back to the old ways success and not go back to the old ways because those old ways of doing things because those old ways of doing things because those old ways of doing things we would have said before were deeply we would have said before were deeply we would have said before were deeply problematic they're just what we know problematic they're just what we know problematic they're just what we know and what we feel comfortable with so and what we feel comfortable with so and what we feel comfortable with so we're actually at this greatest moment we're actually at this greatest moment we're actually at this greatest moment of potential but i actually fear we'll of potential but i actually fear we'll of potential but i actually fear we'll actually revert back and end up actually revert back and end up actually revert back and end up where we were before which we would have where we were before which we would have where we were before which we would have said five years ago needed massive said five years ago needed massive said five years ago needed massive change so maybe a long-winded way to change so maybe a long-winded way to change so maybe a long-winded way to like circle back on your question but like circle back on your question but like circle back on your question but i'm gonna make one comment then i'm i'm gonna make one comment then i'm i'm gonna make one comment then i'm gonna let jason jump in here and i'm gonna let jason jump in here and i'm gonna let jason jump in here and i'm gonna say yes you are correct in that gonna say yes you are correct in that gonna say yes you are correct in that the church did pivot very very fast to the church did pivot very very fast to the church did pivot very very fast to the kovid 19 pandemic going online the the kovid 19 pandemic going online the the kovid 19 pandemic going online the only organization and because you're in only organization and because you're in only organization and because you're in canada you wouldn't have seen this the canada you wouldn't have seen this the canada you wouldn't have seen this the only organization that probably beat the only organization that probably beat the only organization that probably beat the church was chick-fil-a chick-fil-a went church was chick-fil-a chick-fil-a went church was chick-fil-a chick-fil-a went really really fast too really really fast too really really fast too so so so jason is your son still working jason is your son still working jason is your son still working chick-fil-a yeah he does yeah boy he chick-fil-a yeah he does yeah boy he chick-fil-a yeah he does yeah boy he they yeah chick-fil-a pivoted pretty they yeah chick-fil-a pivoted pretty they yeah chick-fil-a pivoted pretty quick too uh but other than that but quick too uh but other than that but quick too uh but other than that but that's kind of like christian chicken that's kind of like christian chicken that's kind of like christian chicken anyway so that's christian chicken it's anyway so that's christian chicken it's anyway so that's christian chicken it's part of the church anyway yeah yeah part of the church anyway yeah yeah part of the church anyway yeah yeah that's right that's right that's right all right all right all right yeah you know it's interesting that you yeah you know it's interesting that you yeah you know it's interesting that you say that because i i mean it's so say that because i i mean it's so say that because i i mean it's so true you know we're so guilty at least true you know we're so guilty at least true you know we're so guilty at least well it sounds like well it sounds like well it sounds like canadian churches are in the same boat canadian churches are in the same boat canadian churches are in the same boat as american churches we just you know as american churches we just you know as american churches we just you know the numbers and the numbers numbers the numbers and the numbers numbers the numbers and the numbers numbers numbers numbers numbers and yet i was having this conversation and yet i was having this conversation and yet i was having this conversation with my son the other day um about with my son the other day um about with my son the other day um about baptism so we had a baptism weekend at

baptism so we had a baptism weekend at baptism so we had a baptism weekend at our church and we don't do it every our church and we don't do it every our church and we don't do it every weekend they kind of like weekend they kind of like weekend they kind of like we ramp up to it some churches do we ramp up to it some churches do we ramp up to it some churches do americans awesome americans awesome americans awesome we had i don't know the count but the we had i don't know the count but the we had i don't know the count but the service i was in we probably had close service i was in we probably had close service i was in we probably had close to 30 people get dunked to 30 people get dunked to 30 people get dunked it was awesome and so we were talking it was awesome and so we were talking it was awesome and so we were talking about because we were you know he was about because we were you know he was about because we were you know he was mentioning how many do churches do like mentioning how many do churches do like mentioning how many do churches do like do all churches do what we do like no no do all churches do what we do like no no do all churches do what we do like no no they don't and it would be interesting they don't and it would be interesting they don't and it would be interesting thought in my mind is what if the thought in my mind is what if the thought in my mind is what if the dashboard that we measured was dashboard that we measured was dashboard that we measured was baptisms and salvations that's it baptisms and salvations that's it baptisms and salvations that's it that's it so every week if it was zero that's it so every week if it was zero that's it so every week if it was zero you're not doing your job you're not doing your job you're not doing your job and how would that radically change and how would that radically change and how would that radically change pastors and churches mindset about pastors and churches mindset about pastors and churches mindset about evangelism and going out and inviting evangelism and going out and inviting evangelism and going out and inviting and bringing people to church and bringing people to church and bringing people to church right or being the church and getting right or being the church and getting right or being the church and getting them baptized i mean it them baptized i mean it them baptized i mean it hi bart blair here i'm the producer of hi bart blair here i'm the producer of hi bart blair here i'm the producer of missional marketing's church growth missional marketing's church growth missional marketing's church growth interviews podcast on behalf of our interviews podcast on behalf of our interviews podcast on behalf of our entire team we really appreciate you entire team we really appreciate you entire team we really appreciate you tuning in let me ask you a question if tuning in let me ask you a question if tuning in let me ask you a question if you're a church leader or a church you're a church leader or a church you're a church leader or a church communications professional do you know communications professional do you know communications professional do you know how google sees your church website how google sees your church website how google sees your church website in other words if people in your in other words if people in your in other words if people in your community were to google churches near community were to google churches near community were to google churches near me or best church in my city or good me or best church in my city or good me or best church in my city or good church nearby do you know where your church nearby do you know where your church nearby do you know where your church website would show up in those church website would show up in those church website would show up in those search results search results search results at the top maybe or somewhere in the at the top maybe or somewhere in the at the top maybe or somewhere in the middle or somewhere on page four you middle or somewhere on page four you middle or somewhere on page four you know there's a common misunderstanding know there's a common misunderstanding know there's a common misunderstanding that if we simply build a great website that if we simply build a great website that if we simply build a great website and we launch it that google will and we launch it that google will and we launch it that google will somehow work its magic and people will

somehow work its magic and people will somehow work its magic and people will find us online but there's a bit more find us online but there's a bit more find us online but there's a bit more art and science to making sure that your art and science to making sure that your art and science to making sure that your church website shows up in the top of church website shows up in the top of church website shows up in the top of those search results and that science is those search results and that science is those search results and that science is called local seo or local search engine called local seo or local search engine called local seo or local search engine optimization in additional marketing optimization in additional marketing optimization in additional marketing local seo is one of the core services local seo is one of the core services local seo is one of the core services that we provide for churches all across that we provide for churches all across that we provide for churches all across the united states and canada and we'd the united states and canada and we'd the united states and canada and we'd love to help you love to help you love to help you if you'd like to learn more click to our if you'd like to learn more click to our if you'd like to learn more click to our website at missionalmarketing.com and website at missionalmarketing.com and website at missionalmarketing.com and follow the link at the top of the page follow the link at the top of the page follow the link at the top of the page that says church seo you can request a that says church seo you can request a that says church seo you can request a free local seo report to see how your free local seo report to see how your free local seo report to see how your church is showing up in google these church is showing up in google these church is showing up in google these days and you can schedule an appointment days and you can schedule an appointment days and you can schedule an appointment to talk with jason or with me or with to talk with jason or with me or with to talk with jason or with me or with one of our other digital strategists to one of our other digital strategists to one of our other digital strategists to help you decide whether or not a local help you decide whether or not a local help you decide whether or not a local seo boost is right for your church hey seo boost is right for your church hey seo boost is right for your church hey again we appreciate you tuning in to our again we appreciate you tuning in to our again we appreciate you tuning in to our podcast and we look forward to the podcast and we look forward to the podcast and we look forward to the opportunity to serving you in your opportunity to serving you in your opportunity to serving you in your church and reaching more people for church and reaching more people for church and reaching more people for jesus now back to the show jesus now back to the show jesus now back to the show well let's double click on that then well let's double click on that then well let's double click on that then jason so let's say i decided that those jason so let's say i decided that those jason so let's say i decided that those were going to be the only two things were going to be the only two things were going to be the only two things that i was measuring that i was measuring that i was measuring salvation's people committing to follow salvation's people committing to follow salvation's people committing to follow jesus and people going public with their jesus and people going public with their jesus and people going public with their faith getting baptized and let's say faith getting baptized and let's say faith getting baptized and let's say that my primary means of accomplishing that my primary means of accomplishing that my primary means of accomplishing those things those things those things starts digital starts digital starts digital professor bryce professor bryce professor bryce what am i doing how am i going to use what am i doing how am i going to use what am i doing how am i going to use digital to begin moving the needle on digital to begin moving the needle on digital to begin moving the needle on those metrics yeah well i think like i think you've yeah well i think like i think you've articulated that the challenge right

articulated that the challenge right articulated that the challenge right like if that's if that's the means then like if that's if that's the means then like if that's if that's the means then how i think first then you'd have to how i think first then you'd have to how i think first then you'd have to take i think you have to take digital take i think you have to take digital take i think you have to take digital seriously i think that's that's actually seriously i think that's that's actually seriously i think that's that's actually the one of the dynamics of the post kind the one of the dynamics of the post kind the one of the dynamics of the post kind of the post pandemic rush and then like of the post pandemic rush and then like of the post pandemic rush and then like the like oh like is this being really the like oh like is this being really the like oh like is this being really effective and then the fear of actually effective and then the fear of actually effective and then the fear of actually pulling back as opposed to continue to pulling back as opposed to continue to pulling back as opposed to continue to press in so continue to press in so continue to press in so continue to take digital seriously and not give up take digital seriously and not give up take digital seriously and not give up on it um because i i do think it has on it um because i i do think it has on it um because i i do think it has immense value into the future immense value into the future immense value into the future but how then you use it i think becomes but how then you use it i think becomes but how then you use it i think becomes key because lots of places just use key because lots of places just use key because lots of places just use digital as a as a means to digital as a as a means to digital as a as a means to people can experience what happens in people can experience what happens in people can experience what happens in person but do that through now with person but do that through now with person but do that through now with digital veil and i think that's actually digital veil and i think that's actually digital veil and i think that's actually a fairly uh like but a fairly uh like but a fairly uh like but that actually isn't really what i think that actually isn't really what i think that actually isn't really what i think most people who are or steeped in most people who are or steeped in most people who are or steeped in digital ministry understanding consider digital ministry understanding consider digital ministry understanding consider it i think that's usually the challenge it i think that's usually the challenge it i think that's usually the challenge i have talking to people is they think i have talking to people is they think i have talking to people is they think like all i'm thinking is like we put a like all i'm thinking is like we put a like all i'm thinking is like we put a camera in the back of the room and then camera in the back of the room and then camera in the back of the room and then that's what i mean by digital ministry that's what i mean by digital ministry that's what i mean by digital ministry and that actually isn't like a digital and that actually isn't like a digital and that actually isn't like a digital small group operates differently than an small group operates differently than an small group operates differently than an in-person small group it's not just a in-person small group it's not just a in-person small group it's not just a camera in the same room you build you camera in the same room you build you camera in the same room you build you know community differently there's a know community differently there's a know community differently there's a different level of engagement there um different level of engagement there um different level of engagement there um so i think part of it you take digital so i think part of it you take digital so i think part of it you take digital seriously you you change accordingly but seriously you you change accordingly but seriously you you change accordingly but then i think you recognize uh the then i think you recognize uh the then i think you recognize uh the the the dynamic of of digital as a means the the dynamic of of digital as a means the the dynamic of of digital as a means to your ends and if the ends are we want to your ends and if the ends are we want to your ends and if the ends are we want people to engage in community we want people to engage in community we want people to engage in community we want people to engage in our people to engage in our people to engage in our in our in our in our in our community as

in our in our in our in our community as in our in our in our in our community as a church we want people to to be aware a church we want people to to be aware a church we want people to to be aware of what's going on and maybe the of what's going on and maybe the of what's going on and maybe the community outside the church we want community outside the church we want community outside the church we want people to know about what god is doing people to know about what god is doing people to know about what god is doing in our church tell the story of what in our church tell the story of what in our church tell the story of what god's happening in a church well now god's happening in a church well now god's happening in a church well now you're reframing actually what your you're reframing actually what your you're reframing actually what your social media channel is and how you social media channel is and how you social media channel is and how you actually are engaging with your maybe actually are engaging with your maybe actually are engaging with your maybe your online services it reframes that as your online services it reframes that as your online services it reframes that as not being not being not being uh not being kind of like a uh not being kind of like a uh not being kind of like a just a digital just a digital just a digital kind of um kind of um kind of um a digital version of what you're doing a digital version of what you're doing a digital version of what you're doing in person it engages it as actually its in person it engages it as actually its in person it engages it as actually its own way to own way to own way to to to get people to the end of having a to to get people to the end of having a to to get people to the end of having a life-changing relationship with jesus life-changing relationship with jesus life-changing relationship with jesus christ and some of that or where even christ and some of that or where even christ and some of that or where even all of that can happen actually in all of that can happen actually in all of that can happen actually in margin online because they're still real margin online because they're still real margin online because they're still real people on either end digitally people on either end digitally people on either end digitally their life it can be life on life it's their life it can be life on life it's their life it can be life on life it's just mediated digitally instead of with just mediated digitally instead of with just mediated digitally instead of with like air and in community all those type like air and in community all those type like air and in community all those type of things i think can happen in a of things i think can happen in a of things i think can happen in a digital format but but that's i think digital format but but that's i think digital format but but that's i think the difference is the difference is the difference is taking digital seriously and then using taking digital seriously and then using taking digital seriously and then using digital to get to the ends and not just digital to get to the ends and not just digital to get to the ends and not just seeing it as a as a as kind of a merge seeing it as a as a as kind of a merge seeing it as a as a as kind of a merge ramp in person if that makes sense yeah ramp in person if that makes sense yeah ramp in person if that makes sense yeah i forget hear what you're saying you're i forget hear what you're saying you're i forget hear what you're saying you're you're basically saying i i understand you're basically saying i i understand you're basically saying i i understand what you're saying you're what you're saying you're what you're saying you're a lot of churches a lot of churches a lot of churches are doing nothing more but creating a are doing nothing more but creating a are doing nothing more but creating a fly on the wall experience for their fly on the wall experience for their fly on the wall experience for their in-person experience their in-person in-person experience their in-person in-person experience their in-person worship service on facebook or youtube worship service on facebook or youtube worship service on facebook or youtube or somewhere on their website or somewhere on their website or somewhere on their website and and and you're saying that you're saying that you're saying that the

the the digital experience needs to be an digital experience needs to be an digital experience needs to be an experience in and of itself not just a experience in and of itself not just a experience in and of itself not just a window into the world of what happens window into the world of what happens window into the world of what happens between the four you know four walls between the four you know four walls between the four you know four walls at eleven o'clock on sunday morning at eleven o'clock on sunday morning at eleven o'clock on sunday morning um you know i was just kind of glancing um you know i was just kind of glancing um you know i was just kind of glancing through some of the notes that we put through some of the notes that we put through some of the notes that we put together before we you know started together before we you know started together before we you know started started recording here and some of the started recording here and some of the started recording here and some of the things that you things that you things that you had put in your notes was things like had put in your notes was things like had put in your notes was things like using social media to build connection using social media to build connection using social media to build connection and using social media to tell stories and using social media to tell stories and using social media to tell stories um um um what kind of things do you see churches what kind of things do you see churches what kind of things do you see churches doing or have you observed churches doing or have you observed churches doing or have you observed churches doing where they're doing that well doing where they're doing that well doing where they're doing that well where they're using social media to where they're using social media to where they're using social media to build that connection or they're using build that connection or they're using build that connection or they're using social media to to tell stories can you social media to to tell stories can you social media to to tell stories can you get a little more practical in that in get a little more practical in that in get a little more practical in that in terms of what that actually looks like terms of what that actually looks like terms of what that actually looks like yeah well i think like the the trick of yeah well i think like the the trick of yeah well i think like the the trick of churches and their social media content churches and their social media content churches and their social media content around this is that everything online is around this is that everything online is around this is that everything online is personal right so like the nature of personal right so like the nature of personal right so like the nature of digital like whether you like whether digital like whether you like whether digital like whether you like whether you know so or not or you choose it or you know so or not or you choose it or you know so or not or you choose it or not everything has been personalized and not everything has been personalized and not everything has been personalized and contextualized for you contextualized for you contextualized for you um that's that's the nature so it's a um that's that's the nature so it's a um that's that's the nature so it's a very personal experience yet most very personal experience yet most very personal experience yet most churches operate their social media churches operate their social media churches operate their social media channels much like a bulletin board channels much like a bulletin board channels much like a bulletin board that's impersonal that's not connected that's impersonal that's not connected that's impersonal that's not connected and yet social is supposed to be social and yet social is supposed to be social and yet social is supposed to be social it's supposed to have ability to tell it's supposed to have ability to tell it's supposed to have ability to tell stories and engage in participation stories and engage in participation stories and engage in participation right one of the dynamics is people like right one of the dynamics is people like right one of the dynamics is people like to participate in the content they're to participate in the content they're to participate in the content they're consuming i always articulate this is consuming i always articulate this is consuming i always articulate this is actually why podcasts are really popular actually why podcasts are really popular actually why podcasts are really popular um podcasts are not typically one person

um podcasts are not typically one person um podcasts are not typically one person talking about their stuff it's not a talking about their stuff it's not a talking about their stuff it's not a lecture it's usually some version of a lecture it's usually some version of a lecture it's usually some version of a conversation happens usually best with conversation happens usually best with conversation happens usually best with more than two people much like you you more than two people much like you you more than two people much like you you articulate here with three people and articulate here with three people and articulate here with three people and people feel like they're the fourth or people feel like they're the fourth or people feel like they're the fourth or the fifth or the sixth or how many the fifth or the sixth or how many the fifth or the sixth or how many people are on the podcast um perspective people are on the podcast um perspective people are on the podcast um perspective they feel like they're participating in they feel like they're participating in they feel like they're participating in what's happening and so if your social what's happening and so if your social what's happening and so if your social media channels can actually live off of media channels can actually live off of media channels can actually live off of those like values and content they those like values and content they those like values and content they actually can can connect with people in actually can can connect with people in actually can can connect with people in new ways so the the churches i see new ways so the the churches i see new ways so the the churches i see around where i live that do that well around where i live that do that well around where i live that do that well use social media to tell the story of use social media to tell the story of use social media to tell the story of what god is doing in the lives of their what god is doing in the lives of their what god is doing in the lives of their people use this use social media not people use this use social media not people use this use social media not just to tell all the events that are just to tell all the events that are just to tell all the events that are upcoming um actually rarely do that and upcoming um actually rarely do that and upcoming um actually rarely do that and use user websites for that they use it use user websites for that they use it use user websites for that they use it in fact to say what is god doing in our in fact to say what is god doing in our in fact to say what is god doing in our church today and so your your engagement church today and so your your engagement church today and so your your engagement with what's happening on social media is with what's happening on social media is with what's happening on social media is them creating what i call proprietary them creating what i call proprietary them creating what i call proprietary content for their community um that's content for their community um that's content for their community um that's unique to them that is customized to unique to them that is customized to unique to them that is customized to them that they're sharing what god's them that they're sharing what god's them that they're sharing what god's doing in their lives of their church i doing in their lives of their church i doing in their lives of their church i think the temptations of lots of think the temptations of lots of think the temptations of lots of churches is let's just churches is let's just churches is let's just you know pay a subscription to a company you know pay a subscription to a company you know pay a subscription to a company that will give us social media posts that will give us social media posts that will give us social media posts that will be designed and we can just that will be designed and we can just that will be designed and we can just send them out and automate send them out and automate send them out and automate a send out thing as opposed to a send out thing as opposed to a send out thing as opposed to customizing it for your community what customizing it for your community what customizing it for your community what does it look like to share the story does it look like to share the story does it look like to share the story what god is happening in your church in what god is happening in your church in what god is happening in your church in real time in a real way that's what will real time in a real way that's what will real time in a real way that's what will compel people because that's what social compel people because that's what social compel people because that's what social media is designed to do media is designed to do media is designed to do it isn't designed just to be like a it isn't designed just to be like a it isn't designed just to be like a large bulletin board that now exists in large bulletin board that now exists in large bulletin board that now exists in a social media space

a social media space a social media space so yeah i you know so yeah i you know so yeah i you know i want to ask this question to you but i want to ask this question to you but i want to ask this question to you but it's putting you on the spot so i'll ask it's putting you on the spot so i'll ask it's putting you on the spot so i'll ask it anyway if you had you know if you you it anyway if you had you know if you you it anyway if you had you know if you you know something that was uh know something that was uh know something that was uh pretty compelling you said hey we're pretty compelling you said hey we're pretty compelling you said hey we're just and i i agree with you we're just just and i i agree with you we're just just and i i agree with you we're just on the the front on the the front on the the front the front very edge of where the front very edge of where the front very edge of where digital's going and in the church digital's going and in the church digital's going and in the church we're 10 years behind in that space we're 10 years behind in that space we're 10 years behind in that space sometimes we might as well be 100 years sometimes we might as well be 100 years sometimes we might as well be 100 years behind it moves so rapidly however behind it moves so rapidly however behind it moves so rapidly however uh are uh are uh are are there churches you just mentioned are there churches you just mentioned are there churches you just mentioned something that's really great are there something that's really great are there something that's really great are there churches that you know that are doing churches that you know that are doing churches that you know that are doing this really effectively and second where this really effectively and second where this really effectively and second where do you think this is all do you think this is all do you think this is all going i mean is it going to be one of going i mean is it going to be one of going i mean is it going to be one of those things where do you think the those things where do you think the those things where do you think the church i mean you said the church is church i mean you said the church is church i mean you said the church is really good at pivoting really good at pivoting really good at pivoting are we going to want to go back to like are we going to want to go back to like are we going to want to go back to like yeah we got to drive because i'm hearing yeah we got to drive because i'm hearing yeah we got to drive because i'm hearing more and more and more we're getting more and more and more we're getting more and more and more we're getting more and more people in the seats okay more and more people in the seats okay more and more people in the seats okay are we getting back to some normal are we getting back to some normal are we getting back to some normal like normalness where that's going to like normalness where that's going to like normalness where that's going to happen or happen or happen or would you like to see the church would you like to see the church would you like to see the church explode in this digital space i mean explode in this digital space i mean explode in this digital space i mean just some some thoughts from you just some some thoughts from you just some some thoughts from you oh it's good i think like oh it's good i think like oh it's good i think like all those things i think it's not an all those things i think it's not an all those things i think it's not an either or dynamic right like the either or dynamic right like the either or dynamic right like the the reality is i think um as we look the reality is i think um as we look the reality is i think um as we look into the future into the future into the future i i i think more people like like i i i think more people like like i i i think more people like like churches will come back to in-person churches will come back to in-person churches will come back to in-person attendances people from more comfortable attendances people from more comfortable attendances people from more comfortable absolutely for sure absolutely for sure absolutely for sure but i also think in the process of that but i also think in the process of that but i also think in the process of that let's not like let's not burn all of our let's not like let's not burn all of our let's not like let's not burn all of our ships ships ships that we learned how to use to get us that we learned how to use to get us that we learned how to use to get us here let's use them to figure what does

here let's use them to figure what does here let's use them to figure what does it look like to embrace digital in the it look like to embrace digital in the it look like to embrace digital in the future it's the same as like i'm sure future it's the same as like i'm sure future it's the same as like i'm sure there's tons of people who there's tons of people who there's tons of people who when they were able to go back to their when they were able to go back to their when they were able to go back to their offices long to go back and experience offices long to go back and experience offices long to go back and experience all the office dynamic but eventually all the office dynamic but eventually all the office dynamic but eventually it'll be like you know what like it'll be like you know what like it'll be like you know what like i i also really liked the engagement i i also really liked the engagement i i also really liked the engagement from at home and and don't ever want to from at home and and don't ever want to from at home and and don't ever want to go back and working fully in person go back and working fully in person go back and working fully in person anymore want to work at least partially anymore want to work at least partially anymore want to work at least partially virtually virtually virtually i think every industry will be like that i think every industry will be like that i think every industry will be like that and and the church will be like that too and and the church will be like that too and and the church will be like that too and even people who tell me like that's and even people who tell me like that's and even people who tell me like that's that's horrible i get this push back all that's horrible i get this push back all that's horrible i get this push back all the time the church can't exist like the time the church can't exist like the time the church can't exist like that the ecclesiastic etc etc okay but that the ecclesiastic etc etc okay but that the ecclesiastic etc etc okay but the reality is you have to figure out the reality is you have to figure out the reality is you have to figure out how to like engage with the world that how to like engage with the world that how to like engage with the world that is going to engage with the church in is going to engage with the church in is going to engage with the church in the in a very different way and i think the in a very different way and i think the in a very different way and i think the danger the danger the danger for lots of these things is that people for lots of these things is that people for lots of these things is that people always perceive always perceive always perceive like i hate like the digital church will like i hate like the digital church will like i hate like the digital church will never work because zoom church sucks and never work because zoom church sucks and never work because zoom church sucks and it's like okay you do realize zoom will it's like okay you do realize zoom will it's like okay you do realize zoom will not be around like will not be what we not be around like will not be what we not be around like will not be what we use in five years use in five years use in five years right like it's it's lifespan it's not right like it's it's lifespan it's not right like it's it's lifespan it's not in perpetuity it is not going to be you in perpetuity it is not going to be you in perpetuity it is not going to be you can comparing this with like msn like can comparing this with like msn like can comparing this with like msn like msn chat from like 10 years ago like msn chat from like 10 years ago like msn chat from like 10 years ago like like these companies change like the like these companies change like the like these companies change like the technology changes so fast what happens technology changes so fast what happens technology changes so fast what happens if you get rid of the digital delay it if you get rid of the digital delay it if you get rid of the digital delay it even becomes a partially 3d experience even becomes a partially 3d experience even becomes a partially 3d experience through vr through vr through vr all these things will be changing and if all these things will be changing and if all these things will be changing and if we if we don't like start thinking about we if we don't like start thinking about we if we don't like start thinking about this both theologically of course but this both theologically of course but this both theologically of course but also methodologically in ministry also methodologically in ministry also methodologically in ministry we've just missed a we just missed our

we've just missed a we just missed our we've just missed a we just missed our moment and uh have like doubled down on moment and uh have like doubled down on moment and uh have like doubled down on in person when i think like the world is in person when i think like the world is in person when i think like the world is shifting and there's conversations shifting and there's conversations shifting and there's conversations around like embodied ministry i get all around like embodied ministry i get all around like embodied ministry i get all of that and i think we need to have all of that and i think we need to have all of that and i think we need to have all of that and that's partially what i what of that and that's partially what i what of that and that's partially what i what i do i do i do but i i also recognize we just can't but i i also recognize we just can't but i i also recognize we just can't like throw it all away for thinking what like throw it all away for thinking what like throw it all away for thinking what digital will be is what digital is right digital will be is what digital is right digital will be is what digital is right now yeah yeah i and and i say this and i now yeah yeah i and and i say this and i now yeah yeah i and and i say this and i pray this that we forget we have the pray this that we forget we have the pray this that we forget we have the most creative leader most creative leader most creative leader oh yeah he created everything including oh yeah he created everything including oh yeah he created everything including the universe and we forget to tap into the universe and we forget to tap into the universe and we forget to tap into him to say him to say him to say hey help help archer and your church hey help help archer and your church hey help help archer and your church excel in the space of digital we could excel in the space of digital we could excel in the space of digital we could be the most creative i'm going on my be the most creative i'm going on my be the most creative i'm going on my soapbox but i just i just i i think we soapbox but i just i just i i think we soapbox but i just i just i i think we just we get ourselves in a little box just we get ourselves in a little box just we get ourselves in a little box yeah we don't realize what we don't have yeah we don't realize what we don't have yeah we don't realize what we don't have to be in a box to be in a box to be in a box right you know so that right you know so that right you know so that that's because we say the same thing that's because we say the same thing that's because we say the same thing about missional marketing how can we about missional marketing how can we about missional marketing how can we continue lord lead us in that path right continue lord lead us in that path right continue lord lead us in that path right we don't know the answers he does well i we don't know the answers he does well i we don't know the answers he does well i would say like before the fall like would say like before the fall like would say like before the fall like technology existed before the fall technology existed before the fall technology existed before the fall everyone but like you know adam needed everyone but like you know adam needed everyone but like you know adam needed tools to tilt the soil you can't till tools to tilt the soil you can't till tools to tilt the soil you can't till the soil with your hands so like there the soil with your hands so like there the soil with your hands so like there there's like i always say like the there's like i always say like the there's like i always say like the garden was this picture of like the garden was this picture of like the garden was this picture of like the world world world vibrating with creativity vibrating with creativity vibrating with creativity like this isn't a a stale environment like this isn't a a stale environment like this isn't a a stale environment that everything was like stuck the same that everything was like stuck the same that everything was like stuck the same there was the sense of like there was the sense of like there was the sense of like of of reproduction and a sense of like of of reproduction and a sense of like of of reproduction and a sense of like of of tilling of the soil the sense of of of tilling of the soil the sense of of of tilling of the soil the sense of like like caring for the earth and like like caring for the earth and like like caring for the earth and storing it in a way that's using

storing it in a way that's using storing it in a way that's using technology to do so technology to do so technology to do so these are but these are created elements these are but these are created elements these are but these are created elements by our creative god that we are we're by our creative god that we are we're by our creative god that we are we're called to to be a part of called to to be a part of called to to be a part of recognizing that because of the fall we recognizing that because of the fall we recognizing that because of the fall we have a tendency to like reach for things have a tendency to like reach for things have a tendency to like reach for things that actually aren't good for us because that actually aren't good for us because that actually aren't good for us because all technology extends our reach to all technology extends our reach to all technology extends our reach to quote christian mcluhan but we have quote christian mcluhan but we have quote christian mcluhan but we have equal a tendency to do horrible things equal a tendency to do horrible things equal a tendency to do horrible things than we have with technology in the past than we have with technology in the past than we have with technology in the past but also has a redemptive portion to it but also has a redemptive portion to it but also has a redemptive portion to it as well that we see even in the as well that we see even in the as well that we see even in the scriptures so yeah scriptures so yeah scriptures so yeah yeah i live in this perpetual tension yeah i live in this perpetual tension yeah i live in this perpetual tension and it's probably and it's probably and it's probably you know you know you know maybe it's just the maybe it's just the maybe it's just the dem my my age maybe it's just my dem my my age maybe it's just my dem my my age maybe it's just my generation i don't know you know generation i don't know you know generation i don't know you know early 20s early 20s early 20s exactly thank you bryce um exactly thank you bryce um exactly thank you bryce um it's this tension that i that i live in it's this tension that i that i live in it's this tension that i that i live in in that in that in that i i i i really have a difficult time i really have a difficult time i really have a difficult time um um um buying into buying into buying into the concept of digital church as a whole the concept of digital church as a whole the concept of digital church as a whole yeah uh i have a really difficult time yeah uh i have a really difficult time yeah uh i have a really difficult time seeing how seeing how seeing how we live out the one and others from we live out the one and others from we live out the one and others from scripture scripture scripture in a digital space now i'm in a digital space now i'm in a digital space now i'm evangelistically wired evangelistically wired evangelistically wired my feet hit the ground running every day my feet hit the ground running every day my feet hit the ground running every day and i do the work that i do and i do the work that i do and i do the work that i do for the purpose of seeing people who are for the purpose of seeing people who are for the purpose of seeing people who are far from god come into a personal far from god come into a personal far from god come into a personal relationship with jesus sure and i will relationship with jesus sure and i will relationship with jesus sure and i will go a thousand percent down go a thousand percent down go a thousand percent down on our digital ability to on our digital ability to on our digital ability to reach people

reach people reach people make disciples online and i would i make disciples online and i would i make disciples online and i would i would and and i've had pastors and would and and i've had pastors and would and and i've had pastors and leaders kind of push back on that and leaders kind of push back on that and leaders kind of push back on that and i'd say you know you're in an academic i'd say you know you're in an academic i'd say you know you're in an academic space the academic world has had to make space the academic world has had to make space the academic world has had to make major pivots since covid major pivots since covid major pivots since covid more and more offerings online and i more and more offerings online and i more and more offerings online and i would no more say that would no more say that would no more say that a pastor who has his mdiv or his a pastor who has his mdiv or his a pastor who has his mdiv or his thm or you know maybe even his doctorate thm or you know maybe even his doctorate thm or you know maybe even his doctorate from an online program from an online program from an online program is less educated is less educated is less educated than a disciple who's been made online than a disciple who's been made online than a disciple who's been made online right like i'm not going to say hey well right like i'm not going to say hey well right like i'm not going to say hey well you can get your master's degree online you can get your master's degree online you can get your master's degree online and we'll call you educated but we're and we'll call you educated but we're and we'll call you educated but we're not going to say that this new disciple not going to say that this new disciple not going to say that this new disciple of jesus isn't really saved because they of jesus isn't really saved because they of jesus isn't really saved because they yeah they have it online i'm not going yeah they have it online i'm not going yeah they have it online i'm not going to do that but i i have a really to do that but i i have a really to do that but i i have a really difficult time in this in this space i difficult time in this in this space i difficult time in this in this space i know dave adamson i have not read his know dave adamson i have not read his know dave adamson i have not read his book he's got this new book out called book he's got this new book out called book he's got this new book out called meta church and there's a lot of people meta church and there's a lot of people meta church and there's a lot of people talking about the idea of having this talking about the idea of having this talking about the idea of having this this uh virtual reality vr church it's this uh virtual reality vr church it's this uh virtual reality vr church it's you're right it's not zoom church and you're right it's not zoom church and you're right it's not zoom church and and by the way for those of you who are and by the way for those of you who are and by the way for those of you who are listening don't go and sell your zoom listening don't go and sell your zoom listening don't go and sell your zoom stock just yet i don't have any inside stock just yet i don't have any inside stock just yet i don't have any inside tips but just because bright said it's tips but just because bright said it's tips but just because bright said it's not going to be around forever doesn't not going to be around forever doesn't not going to be around forever doesn't mean you should go unload it today um mean you should go unload it today um mean you should go unload it today um but you know i don't know i didn't i but you know i don't know i didn't i but you know i don't know i didn't i didn't necessarily have a question in didn't necessarily have a question in didn't necessarily have a question in this i'm just wrestling in all the this i'm just wrestling in all the this i'm just wrestling in all the tension because i'm the 50 some you're tension because i'm the 50 some you're tension because i'm the 50 some you're on the 50 some year old pastor on the 50 some year old pastor on the 50 some year old pastor who is living in this world where i know who is living in this world where i know who is living in this world where i know i've got less runway in front of me than i've got less runway in front of me than i've got less runway in front of me than i have behind me i have behind me i have behind me i remember doing ministry with a flip i remember doing ministry with a flip i remember doing ministry with a flip phone i remember doing ministry without

phone i remember doing ministry without phone i remember doing ministry without a cell phone um but the pastors coming a cell phone um but the pastors coming a cell phone um but the pastors coming behind me behind me behind me haven't and can't and so i'm i haven't and can't and so i'm i haven't and can't and so i'm i have no question i'm just i'm laboring have no question i'm just i'm laboring have no question i'm just i'm laboring over this prospect no well i think over this prospect no well i think over this prospect no well i think you've heard like you've heard like you've heard like i would want to be clear on this like i i would want to be clear on this like i i would want to be clear on this like i i think there's challenges with digital i think there's challenges with digital i think there's challenges with digital digital ministry like it's it's not digital ministry like it's it's not digital ministry like it's it's not there's challenges partially there's challenges partially there's challenges partially theologically and methodologically i'm theologically and methodologically i'm theologically and methodologically i'm not trying to like basically say ignore not trying to like basically say ignore not trying to like basically say ignore all that and just go and embrace it i all that and just go and embrace it i all that and just go and embrace it i also i'm saying that person could also i'm saying that person could also i'm saying that person could challenge those who would say well you challenge those who would say well you challenge those who would say well you can't do it anything always has to be in can't do it anything always has to be in can't do it anything always has to be in person person person right like only only in person for right like only only in person for right like only only in person for example teaching is authoritative and example teaching is authoritative and example teaching is authoritative and good well the early church would good well the early church would good well the early church would disagree with you because that's what disagree with you because that's what disagree with you because that's what the paul's letters were seen as the paul's letters were seen as the paul's letters were seen as authoritative and they would read them authoritative and they would read them authoritative and they would read them and pass them around that was a form of and pass them around that was a form of and pass them around that was a form of technology that was like mediated technology that was like mediated technology that was like mediated through a page in words and yet was seen through a page in words and yet was seen through a page in words and yet was seen as authoritative and embraced as this as authoritative and embraced as this as authoritative and embraced as this gift that they while paul's in prison or gift that they while paul's in prison or gift that they while paul's in prison or visiting different churches they can visiting different churches they can visiting different churches they can still be a part of the teaching of the still be a part of the teaching of the still be a part of the teaching of the church um so i just would just always be church um so i just would just always be church um so i just would just always be cautious that we don't don't dismiss cautious that we don't don't dismiss cautious that we don't don't dismiss something for because of like oh like something for because of like oh like something for because of like oh like how do you do communion or baptism how do you do communion or baptism how do you do communion or baptism online in the sacraments or wherever you online in the sacraments or wherever you online in the sacraments or wherever you however you view them in your church however you view them in your church however you view them in your church tradition how do you do those online tradition how do you do those online tradition how do you do those online yeah that's a great question and worthy yeah that's a great question and worthy yeah that's a great question and worthy of lots of theological refreshing but of lots of theological refreshing but of lots of theological refreshing but let's not throw out the the dynamic of let's not throw out the the dynamic of let's not throw out the the dynamic of actually connecting with somebody over actually connecting with somebody over actually connecting with somebody over over zoom or whatever it's vengeful over zoom or whatever it's vengeful over zoom or whatever it's vengeful someday replacement will be uh i don't someday replacement will be uh i don't someday replacement will be uh i don't want to get sued by zoom

want to get sued by zoom want to get sued by zoom but like all technology companies they but like all technology companies they but like all technology companies they all come and go so what like what does all come and go so what like what does all come and go so what like what does that what does that look like because that what does that look like because that what does that look like because it's not gonna the social media will not it's not gonna the social media will not it's not gonna the social media will not look the same right facebook list it look the same right facebook list it look the same right facebook list it looks very different than friendster looks very different than friendster looks very different than friendster you know friendster or myspace right you know friendster or myspace right you know friendster or myspace right what social the facebook is now is what social the facebook is now is what social the facebook is now is different and what it will be ten years different and what it will be ten years different and what it will be ten years from now will be different from now will be different from now will be different um and so we always have to be cautious um and so we always have to be cautious um and so we always have to be cautious i think of of those dynamics and and try i think of of those dynamics and and try i think of of those dynamics and and try to like use it wisely at the same time to like use it wisely at the same time to like use it wisely at the same time as not as not as not not just disparage it because it's not just disparage it because it's not just disparage it because it's different and it challenges our different and it challenges our different and it challenges our preconceived norms of what it looks like preconceived norms of what it looks like preconceived norms of what it looks like yeah yeah yeah to me instead it's not about to me instead it's not about to me instead it's not about um not wanting to do it because of a um not wanting to do it because of a um not wanting to do it because of a fear of failure you're going to fail fear of failure you're going to fail fear of failure you're going to fail because you didn't try because you didn't try because you didn't try so go go try and fail and try again and so go go try and fail and try again and so go go try and fail and try again and fail and try again and fail and fail and try again and fail and fail and try again and fail and eventually you won't and you have to be eventually you won't and you have to be eventually you won't and you have to be okay to do that but i think to to this okay to do that but i think to to this okay to do that but i think to to this conversation i think for our listeners conversation i think for our listeners conversation i think for our listeners it's more about you know what do you do it's more about you know what do you do it's more about you know what do you do with this information what do you do with this information what do you do with this information what do you do with this conversation and all the other with this conversation and all the other with this conversation and all the other conversations are happening around this conversations are happening around this conversations are happening around this digital church movement digital church movement digital church movement and i guess my my take is just absorb it and i guess my my take is just absorb it and i guess my my take is just absorb it all and pray and lena where god is all and pray and lena where god is all and pray and lena where god is leading you and your ministry and how leading you and your ministry and how leading you and your ministry and how you can continue to connect with people you can continue to connect with people you can continue to connect with people but don't be afraid to try and go do but don't be afraid to try and go do but don't be afraid to try and go do something just because you you think something just because you you think something just because you you think you're going to fail you are going to you're going to fail you are going to you're going to fail you are going to fail and that's a good thing fail and that's a good thing fail and that's a good thing right right right and i would say keep having the and i would say keep having the and i would say keep having the conversations right like like let's conversations right like like let's conversations right like like let's let's keep talking about this and let's let's keep talking about this and let's let's keep talking about this and let's try to have constructive conversations

try to have constructive conversations try to have constructive conversations and not like throw the baby off the and not like throw the baby off the and not like throw the baby off the bathwater conversations or not like bathwater conversations or not like bathwater conversations or not like let's embrace everything with the let's embrace everything with the let's embrace everything with the critically reflecting conversations like critically reflecting conversations like critically reflecting conversations like the truth is going to be somewhere in the truth is going to be somewhere in the truth is going to be somewhere in the middle and that will be the sweet the middle and that will be the sweet the middle and that will be the sweet spot but it's going to take us time to spot but it's going to take us time to spot but it's going to take us time to figure that out and figure that out and figure that out and the the the the like world is constantly changing so the like world is constantly changing so the like world is constantly changing so what we're the questions we've got today what we're the questions we've got today what we're the questions we've got today will be very different from 10 years will be very different from 10 years will be very different from 10 years from now yeah from now yeah from now yeah that the church is wrestling with and that the church is wrestling with and that the church is wrestling with and it's going to be different now 10 years it's going to be different now 10 years it's going to be different now 10 years from then that's always has always been from then that's always has always been from then that's always has always been the case always will be the case people the case always will be the case people the case always will be the case people were having these questions about mass were having these questions about mass were having these questions about mass media and how that was going to change media and how that was going to change media and how that was going to change the church the television and newspaper the church the television and newspaper the church the television and newspaper ads no matter what it's always going to ads no matter what it's always going to ads no matter what it's always going to the conversation is always going to be the conversation is always going to be the conversation is always going to be among us and we just need to keep kind among us and we just need to keep kind among us and we just need to keep kind of like diving into it of like diving into it of like diving into it well bryce thank you so much for well bryce thank you so much for well bryce thank you so much for your input and your wisdom and your your input and your wisdom and your your input and your wisdom and your ministry i really really appreciate it ministry i really really appreciate it ministry i really really appreciate it how can people connect with you where how can people connect with you where how can people connect with you where can they find some of your content can they find some of your content can they find some of your content yeah so the easiest way the most kind of yeah so the easiest way the most kind of yeah so the easiest way the most kind of general way to connect is bryce ashley general way to connect is bryce ashley general way to connect is bryce ashley mayo.com uh mayo.com uh mayo.com uh that's that's that's from there you can follow me on any of from there you can follow me on any of from there you can follow me on any of my social media channels it's all the my social media channels it's all the my social media channels it's all the same at rice the mail same at rice the mail same at rice the mail you can track me down there you can get you can track me down there you can get you can track me down there you can get my books on amazon whole shebang so my books on amazon whole shebang so my books on amazon whole shebang so that's the easiest way to help me okay that's the easiest way to help me okay that's the easiest way to help me okay great we'll add those to the show notes great we'll add those to the show notes great we'll add those to the show notes so anybody can go and check that out and so anybody can go and check that out and so anybody can go and check that out and again thank you bryce we really again thank you bryce we really again thank you bryce we really appreciate your time appreciate your time appreciate your time thanks and anyone who's listening that's thanks and anyone who's listening that's thanks and anyone who's listening that's a church leader a church leader a church leader thank you for serving in one of the most thank you for serving in one of the most thank you for serving in one of the most challenging times in church history and challenging times in church history and challenging times in church history and continue to uh to continue on valiantly

continue to uh to continue on valiantly continue to uh to continue on valiantly in service of our king and his mission in service of our king and his mission in service of our king and his mission you've got to aim into that amen thank you've got to aim into that amen thank you've got to aim into that amen thank you you you [Music]