Rethinking Church Communications Post-COVID | Interview with Phil Bowdle

[Music] [Music] well hey there well hey there well hey there welcome to the church growth interviews welcome to the church growth interviews welcome to the church growth interviews podcast my name is bart blair and i am podcast my name is bart blair and i am podcast my name is bart blair and i am here with my friend here with my friend here with my friend and the ceo of missional marketing jason and the ceo of missional marketing jason and the ceo of missional marketing jason hamrock hamrock hamrock how's it going today jason it is going how's it going today jason it is going how's it going today jason it is going well bart i can't complain yep well bart i can't complain yep well bart i can't complain yep now i have to comment on the fact that now i have to comment on the fact that now i have to comment on the fact that you're wearing a like a hoodie a sweater you're wearing a like a hoodie a sweater you're wearing a like a hoodie a sweater today is it is it today is it is it today is it is it cold in phoenix you know i'm in phoenix cold in phoenix you know i'm in phoenix cold in phoenix you know i'm in phoenix it's march it's march it's march and this is a really rare season for us and this is a really rare season for us and this is a really rare season for us because it's actually chilly because it's actually chilly because it's actually chilly and we have clouds if you have if you and we have clouds if you have if you and we have clouds if you have if you live in phoenix this like clouds are live in phoenix this like clouds are live in phoenix this like clouds are very rare around here so it's kind of very rare around here so it's kind of very rare around here so it's kind of nice to be able to see clouds today nice to be able to see clouds today nice to be able to see clouds today what's what's what's chile chili what's what's what's chile chili what's what's what's chile chili describe chili describe chili describe chili uh mid 60s it's cold uh mid 60s it's cold uh mid 60s it's cold okay so for our friends that are like okay so for our friends that are like okay so for our friends that are like listening in minneapolis listening in minneapolis listening in minneapolis or uh the northeast that's or uh the northeast that's or uh the northeast that's that's not chilly they probably love to that's not chilly they probably love to that's not chilly they probably love to have temperature in the 60s have temperature in the 60s have temperature in the 60s they would i'm i have such weak uh they would i'm i have such weak uh they would i'm i have such weak uh my blood is really thin and i'm just a my blood is really thin and i'm just a my blood is really thin and i'm just a wimp okay wimp okay wimp okay we'll we'll we'll document that i can we'll we'll we'll document that i can we'll we'll we'll document that i can probably just take that into a little probably just take that into a little probably just take that into a little short video clip short video clip short video clip make the meme of jason i'm just a wimp make the meme of jason i'm just a wimp make the meme of jason i'm just a wimp um hey speaking of weather um hey speaking of weather um hey speaking of weather okay so get this i'm in texas i'm in the okay so get this i'm in texas i'm in the okay so get this i'm in texas i'm in the dallas area and dallas area and dallas area and this is springtime so this is like this is springtime so this is like this is springtime so this is like severe weather time for us severe weather time for us severe weather time for us so last night it's funny my wife so last night it's funny my wife so last night it's funny my wife elizabeth elizabeth elizabeth loves storm season i don't know what it loves storm season i don't know what it loves storm season i don't know what it is she's terrified of bears is she's terrified of bears is she's terrified of bears which is like this totally irrational which is like this totally irrational which is like this totally irrational fear because where we live there are no fear because where we live there are no fear because where we live there are no bears bears bears but there she's not afraid of tornadoes

but there she's not afraid of tornadoes but there she's not afraid of tornadoes i'm not quite sure i'm not quite sure i'm not quite sure why she's not afraid of tornadoes so why she's not afraid of tornadoes so why she's not afraid of tornadoes so when we start getting these severe when we start getting these severe when we start getting these severe weather weather weather alerts and things like she runs outside alerts and things like she runs outside alerts and things like she runs outside she's one of those people standing in she's one of those people standing in she's one of those people standing in the backyard the backyard the backyard looking at the lightning looking for the looking at the lightning looking for the looking at the lightning looking for the tornado and last night tornado and last night tornado and last night we've got the news on and all of a we've got the news on and all of a we've got the news on and all of a sudden you know we're getting some sudden you know we're getting some sudden you know we're getting some some weather reports and down the street some weather reports and down the street some weather reports and down the street from us the tornado sirens went off from us the tornado sirens went off from us the tornado sirens went off oh it started fired off so we're like we oh it started fired off so we're like we oh it started fired off so we're like we grabbed silas he was upstairs in his grabbed silas he was upstairs in his grabbed silas he was upstairs in his room and we ran down and we're like room and we ran down and we're like room and we ran down and we're like tucked into the hall closet tucked into the hall closet tucked into the hall closet you know sitting there with the dog like you know sitting there with the dog like you know sitting there with the dog like okay this is like the real deal we've okay this is like the real deal we've okay this is like the real deal we've gotta gotta gotta we've got the tornado sirens and they we've got the tornado sirens and they we've got the tornado sirens and they went for like two minutes and then they went for like two minutes and then they went for like two minutes and then they went off and went off and went off and and we went back and checked the news and we went back and checked the news and we went back and checked the news again and that there was a again and that there was a again and that there was a tornado warning in the next county um tornado warning in the next county um tornado warning in the next county um but uh it never really formulated into but uh it never really formulated into but uh it never really formulated into anything in anything in anything in into anything significant but was it was into anything significant but was it was into anything significant but was it was was kind of adventurous speaking of was kind of adventurous speaking of was kind of adventurous speaking of speaking of weather you know it's that speaking of weather you know it's that speaking of weather you know it's that it's that time it's it's that time it's it's that time it's rare for uh for you guys there in march rare for uh for you guys there in march rare for uh for you guys there in march you know to have that kind of severe you know to have that kind of severe you know to have that kind of severe weather with weather with weather with yeah march april well i mean we're yeah march april well i mean we're yeah march april well i mean we're almost in april at the time that we're almost in april at the time that we're almost in april at the time that we're recording this right so it is it is that recording this right so it is it is that recording this right so it is it is that spring time when we start getting those spring time when we start getting those spring time when we start getting those i don't i'm not a meteorologist so i i don't i'm not a meteorologist so i i don't i'm not a meteorologist so i don't understand it but i guess you get don't understand it but i guess you get don't understand it but i guess you get these these these high pressure low pressure warm high pressure low pressure warm high pressure low pressure warm temperature cold temperature things kind temperature cold temperature things kind temperature cold temperature things kind of hitting each other and it causes of hitting each other and it causes of hitting each other and it causes updrafts and twisting and i don't know updrafts and twisting and i don't know updrafts and twisting and i don't know all kinds of all kinds of all kinds of crazy well wherever you are in the in crazy well wherever you are in the in crazy well wherever you are in the in the world i we hope your weather the world i we hope your weather the world i we hope your weather is just fine yeah let's hope that uh is just fine yeah let's hope that uh is just fine yeah let's hope that uh hope that you are not hope that you are not hope that you are not hiding in a closet somewhere as you hiding in a closet somewhere as you hiding in a closet somewhere as you listen to this podcast listen to this podcast listen to this podcast hey so we're jason we're coming up on

hey so we're jason we're coming up on hey so we're jason we're coming up on pretty close to a year since we pretty close to a year since we pretty close to a year since we launched this podcast i think it's safe launched this podcast i think it's safe launched this podcast i think it's safe to say that the year to say that the year to say that the year that we've just been through a lot of that we've just been through a lot of that we've just been through a lot of the the the content and the topics of the podcast content and the topics of the podcast content and the topics of the podcast were very different than what we had were very different than what we had were very different than what we had expected and hoped when we started expected and hoped when we started expected and hoped when we started because we had no idea when we planned because we had no idea when we planned because we had no idea when we planned this thing out last spring that this thing out last spring that this thing out last spring that covid was probably going to occupy the covid was probably going to occupy the covid was probably going to occupy the majority of our of our podcast content majority of our of our podcast content majority of our of our podcast content but now we're at the day that we're but now we're at the day that we're but now we're at the day that we're recording this we're kind of wrapping up recording this we're kind of wrapping up recording this we're kind of wrapping up we're almost at the end of march we're almost at the end of march we're almost at the end of march first quarter of the year and i wanted first quarter of the year and i wanted first quarter of the year and i wanted to ask you a question you know to ask you a question you know to ask you a question you know after the last year and as we've gotten after the last year and as we've gotten after the last year and as we've gotten through the first quarter we're kind of through the first quarter we're kind of through the first quarter we're kind of coming up on easter coming up on easter coming up on easter as we're recording this what's been as we're recording this what's been as we're recording this what's been something that's been encouraging to you something that's been encouraging to you something that's been encouraging to you that you've seen in the local church that you've seen in the local church that you've seen in the local church kind of coming out of 2020 and into 2021 kind of coming out of 2020 and into 2021 kind of coming out of 2020 and into 2021 one thing that's been really encouraging one thing that's been really encouraging one thing that's been really encouraging for me is the uh for me is the uh for me is the uh the throwing away of sacred cows the throwing away of sacred cows the throwing away of sacred cows okay what i mean by that is i i think we okay what i mean by that is i i think we okay what i mean by that is i i think we as the the church in north america in as the the church in north america in as the the church in north america in the united states we've been so focused the united states we've been so focused the united states we've been so focused on driving people to our building on driving people to our building on driving people to our building and if we just get them in the building and if we just get them in the building and if we just get them in the building then we can then we can minister to them then we can then we can minister to them then we can then we can minister to them and uh covet put a stop to that in a and uh covet put a stop to that in a and uh covet put a stop to that in a heartbeat heartbeat heartbeat and i think that was a one of the best and i think that was a one of the best and i think that was a one of the best things that could happen to the church things that could happen to the church things that could happen to the church because it forced leaders to think because it forced leaders to think because it forced leaders to think differently about differently about differently about how you do ministry how do you disciple how you do ministry how do you disciple how you do ministry how do you disciple how do you reach people how do you reach people how do you reach people and that means instead of making them

and that means instead of making them and that means instead of making them come to us come to us come to us we go to them we go to them digitally we go to them we go to them digitally we go to them we go to them digitally and meet people where they are in the in and meet people where they are in the in and meet people where they are in the in the muck the muck the muck of where of what they're in in life and of where of what they're in in life and of where of what they're in in life and we can speak to them we can speak to them we can speak to them and if you think about that that's what and if you think about that that's what and if you think about that that's what jesus did two thousand years ago that's jesus did two thousand years ago that's jesus did two thousand years ago that's what he did what he did what he did he didn't say come to me he he came to he didn't say come to me he he came to he didn't say come to me he he came to us us us and and so for me i think that was a and and so for me i think that was a and and so for me i think that was a probably a huge turning point for probably a huge turning point for probably a huge turning point for churches churches churches and a lot of churches rallied behind and a lot of churches rallied behind and a lot of churches rallied behind that that that with resources with their people with with resources with their people with with resources with their people with with with with with their money and they invested into with their money and they invested into with their money and they invested into what they know is going to be the new what they know is going to be the new what they know is going to be the new normal normal normal and that is you gotta you're not and that is you gotta you're not and that is you gotta you're not throwing your building away by any means throwing your building away by any means throwing your building away by any means but but but you're uh you're thinking differently you're uh you're thinking differently you're uh you're thinking differently about how to do ministry and it really about how to do ministry and it really about how to do ministry and it really is a lot of it's online yeah that makes is a lot of it's online yeah that makes is a lot of it's online yeah that makes that that that that that makes a lot of sense we've had that that makes a lot of sense we've had that that makes a lot of sense we've had several guests on the podcast here in several guests on the podcast here in several guests on the podcast here in the last the last the last you know few weeks um jim tomberlin one you know few weeks um jim tomberlin one you know few weeks um jim tomberlin one of them of them of them talking about the fact that you know we talking about the fact that you know we talking about the fact that you know we used to think that without a building we used to think that without a building we used to think that without a building we had no revenue that had no revenue that had no revenue that all of our offerings came as a result of all of our offerings came as a result of all of our offerings came as a result of having a building and obviously that's having a building and obviously that's having a building and obviously that's one of the things that we've one of the things that we've one of the things that we've we've learned is very different um we're we've learned is very different um we're we've learned is very different um we're going to introduce our our going to introduce our our going to introduce our our guest for this episode here in just a guest for this episode here in just a guest for this episode here in just a minute this guy named phil minute this guy named phil minute this guy named phil baudel who's the creative arts pastor at baudel who's the creative arts pastor at baudel who's the creative arts pastor at west ridge church west ridge church west ridge church uh in dallas georgia the the little uh in dallas georgia the the little uh in dallas georgia the the little dallas i'm in the big dallas he's in the dallas i'm in the big dallas he's in the dallas i'm in the big dallas he's in the little dallas little dallas little dallas um but we were offline with him uh um but we were offline with him uh um but we were offline with him uh yesterday when we recorded this yesterday when we recorded this yesterday when we recorded this and one of the things that i said that i and one of the things that i said that i and one of the things that i said that i was really encouraged by

was really encouraged by was really encouraged by coming in to the end of the first coming in to the end of the first coming in to the end of the first quarter was at this time last year quarter was at this time last year quarter was at this time last year there was a real sense of panic in the there was a real sense of panic in the there was a real sense of panic in the local church um local church um local church um i think both jim tomberlin and dale i think both jim tomberlin and dale i think both jim tomberlin and dale sellers in the episodes they've been on sellers in the episodes they've been on sellers in the episodes they've been on with us both of them with us both of them with us both of them made the statement that you know coven made the statement that you know coven made the statement that you know coven 19 didn't 19 didn't 19 didn't create as many problems for the church create as many problems for the church create as many problems for the church as much as it did as much as it did as much as it did exposed problems that we had in the exposed problems that we had in the exposed problems that we had in the church and church and church and um that exposure really caused a lot of um that exposure really caused a lot of um that exposure really caused a lot of panic there was just panic there was just panic there was just this time last year it was like are we this time last year it was like are we this time last year it was like are we doing easter are we not doing easter are doing easter are we not doing easter are doing easter are we not doing easter are we ever going to get back in our we ever going to get back in our we ever going to get back in our building are we not getting her back in building are we not getting her back in building are we not getting her back in our building our building our building and and this year even though there's and and this year even though there's and and this year even though there's still a whole lot of unknown still a whole lot of unknown still a whole lot of unknown and people are really not sure how you and people are really not sure how you and people are really not sure how you know 2021 is going to fully play out know 2021 is going to fully play out know 2021 is going to fully play out our experience has been especially as our experience has been especially as our experience has been especially as we've been connecting with churches here we've been connecting with churches here we've been connecting with churches here in preparation for easter and helping in preparation for easter and helping in preparation for easter and helping them with their their digital outreach them with their their digital outreach them with their their digital outreach campaigns and their marketing campaigns campaigns and their marketing campaigns campaigns and their marketing campaigns is that churches are moving at a much is that churches are moving at a much is that churches are moving at a much more more more uh purposeful pace there's not the panic uh purposeful pace there's not the panic uh purposeful pace there's not the panic there's not the knee jerk there's not a there's not the knee jerk there's not a there's not the knee jerk there's not a we just got to throw a whole bunch of we just got to throw a whole bunch of we just got to throw a whole bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks stuff at the wall and see what sticks stuff at the wall and see what sticks they're being much more strategic and they're being much more strategic and they're being much more strategic and much more methodical in their pro much more methodical in their pro much more methodical in their pro approach and and that's been really approach and and that's been really approach and and that's been really encouraging for me encouraging for me encouraging for me because things are going to continue to because things are going to continue to because things are going to continue to change like it's change like it's change like it's you know we're not the new normal we say you know we're not the new normal we say you know we're not the new normal we say is the new normal and the is the new normal and the is the new normal and the normal might last two or three months normal might last two or three months normal might last two or three months before we find ourselves facing before we find ourselves facing before we find ourselves facing another normal a different normal right another normal a different normal right another normal a different normal right and so i think one of the big lessons and so i think one of the big lessons and so i think one of the big lessons that we've learned as a church is that that we've learned as a church is that that we've learned as a church is that slow and steady wins the race that you slow and steady wins the race that you slow and steady wins the race that you know these knee-jerk reactions or know these knee-jerk reactions or know these knee-jerk reactions or over-reactions

over-reactions over-reactions over-correcting um doesn't serve us well over-correcting um doesn't serve us well over-correcting um doesn't serve us well it doesn't serve our people well it doesn't serve our people well it doesn't serve our people well it certainly doesn't serve the kingdom it certainly doesn't serve the kingdom it certainly doesn't serve the kingdom well and so that's been an encouragement well and so that's been an encouragement well and so that's been an encouragement for me well one and one encouragement for me well one and one encouragement for me well one and one encouragement for me is for me is for me is god is still in control and god is in god is still in control and god is in god is still in control and god is in control of those who are in control control of those who are in control control of those who are in control god is in control and uh you know god is in control and uh you know god is in control and uh you know regardless of what's going to come at us regardless of what's going to come at us regardless of what's going to come at us this is this is this is his church and we're his people and i his church and we're his people and i his church and we're his people and i think think think what what kind of came to light i think what what kind of came to light i think what what kind of came to light i think a lot of people and rightfully so you're a lot of people and rightfully so you're a lot of people and rightfully so you're a little nervous right churches are a little nervous right churches are a little nervous right churches are going oh going oh going oh is giving going to stay consistent or is is giving going to stay consistent or is is giving going to stay consistent or is it going to drop it going to drop it going to drop i mean what's going to happen here of i mean what's going to happen here of i mean what's going to happen here of course last year we also had that little course last year we also had that little course last year we also had that little thing called an election and it thing called an election and it thing called an election and it you know all that stuff that's going on you know all that stuff that's going on you know all that stuff that's going on in our country in our country in our country it caused some panic and you know we're it caused some panic and you know we're it caused some panic and you know we're humans and i think that was something humans and i think that was something humans and i think that was something that was probably natural but that was probably natural but that was probably natural but as you were saying this this season as you were saying this this season as you were saying this this season right now that we're in we're right now that we're in we're right now that we're in we're we're right before easter right now of we're right before easter right now of we're right before easter right now of course when you hear this it's going to course when you hear this it's going to course when you hear this it's going to be after easter be after easter be after easter a lot of churches are like kind of a lot of churches are like kind of a lot of churches are like kind of breathing a sigh of relief okay cool breathing a sigh of relief okay cool breathing a sigh of relief okay cool all right giving is still strong in fact all right giving is still strong in fact all right giving is still strong in fact some churches it's gone up some churches it's gone up some churches it's gone up that means our people are more dedicated that means our people are more dedicated that means our people are more dedicated and we can still do ministry and we can still do ministry and we can still do ministry i just i sit back and go yeah because i just i sit back and go yeah because i just i sit back and go yeah because god's in control god's in control god's in control so don't freak out and and and think so don't freak out and and and think so don't freak out and and and think ahead and plan and i think churches have ahead and plan and i think churches have ahead and plan and i think churches have been doing that been doing that been doing that um i know they've been doing that so um i know they've been doing that so um i know they've been doing that so that's pretty exciting for that's pretty exciting for that's pretty exciting for for in my opinion what's going to be for in my opinion what's going to be for in my opinion what's going to be happening here the rest of 2021 and into happening here the rest of 2021 and into happening here the rest of 2021 and into the future is the future is the future is you know we we serve a great god who you know we we serve a great god who you know we we serve a great god who loves us he cares about us it's his loves us he cares about us it's his loves us he cares about us it's his church and um we just get to to fall in

church and um we just get to to fall in church and um we just get to to fall in his footsteps his footsteps his footsteps yeah that's very very well said well we yeah that's very very well said well we yeah that's very very well said well we should probably go ahead should probably go ahead should probably go ahead and and introduce uh i kind of already i and and introduce uh i kind of already i and and introduce uh i kind of already i kind of introduced the guest already uh kind of introduced the guest already uh kind of introduced the guest already uh phil baudel the creative arts pastor at phil baudel the creative arts pastor at phil baudel the creative arts pastor at west ridge church west ridge church west ridge church west race church is a church of about west race church is a church of about west race church is a church of about three to four thousand three to four thousand three to four thousand people in attendance pre-pandemic um i i people in attendance pre-pandemic um i i people in attendance pre-pandemic um i i don't know if he told don't know if he told don't know if he told us how they're doing uh these days in us how they're doing uh these days in us how they're doing uh these days in terms of their attendance but terms of their attendance but terms of their attendance but uh really encouraged by the ministry uh really encouraged by the ministry uh really encouraged by the ministry that they're doing there that they're doing there that they're doing there phil leads a a large team of creatives phil leads a a large team of creatives phil leads a a large team of creatives and communications people and communications people and communications people and he's also the author of a book and he's also the author of a book and he's also the author of a book called rethinking church communication called rethinking church communication called rethinking church communication and we're we're going to unpack a little and we're we're going to unpack a little and we're we're going to unpack a little bit from that book bit from that book bit from that book in the conversation that that we had in the conversation that that we had in the conversation that that we had with him yesterday with him yesterday with him yesterday and uh so without uh without any further and uh so without uh without any further and uh so without uh without any further delay let's let's delay let's let's delay let's let's get to that interview with phil baudel get to that interview with phil baudel get to that interview with phil baudel well hey phil well hey phil well hey phil welcome to the podcast uh glad to have welcome to the podcast uh glad to have welcome to the podcast uh glad to have you you you uh on board today how's it going it's uh on board today how's it going it's uh on board today how's it going it's going great thrilled to be here with you going great thrilled to be here with you going great thrilled to be here with you guys guys guys yeah thrilled to have you and i'm yeah thrilled to have you and i'm yeah thrilled to have you and i'm excited about this excited about this excited about this uh podcast today because we're gonna uh podcast today because we're gonna uh podcast today because we're gonna dive in a little bit to a book you wrote dive in a little bit to a book you wrote dive in a little bit to a book you wrote and a little bit i want to learn a and a little bit i want to learn a and a little bit i want to learn a little bit more about little bit more about little bit more about who you are what god's been doing who you are what god's been doing who you are what god's been doing through you and through through you and through through you and through uh your ministry and so share with our uh your ministry and so share with our uh your ministry and so share with our audience audience audience who you are and a little bit of your who you are and a little bit of your who you are and a little bit of your background sure yeah well background sure yeah well background sure yeah well um my favorite role and job title is dad um my favorite role and job title is dad um my favorite role and job title is dad um um um so i get to be a dad to a so i get to be a dad to a so i get to be a dad to a six-year-old ethan and two-year-old ava

six-year-old ethan and two-year-old ava six-year-old ethan and two-year-old ava joy and um joy and um joy and um love that being able to do that with my love that being able to do that with my love that being able to do that with my wife sarah and um we've been we live out wife sarah and um we've been we live out wife sarah and um we've been we live out here in northwest atlanta here in northwest atlanta here in northwest atlanta uh in dallas georgia um little little uh in dallas georgia um little little uh in dallas georgia um little little dallas dallas dallas okay yeah yeah for sure so um but uh okay yeah yeah for sure so um but uh okay yeah yeah for sure so um but uh have been out here have been out here have been out here it's not home for us we grew up in i it's not home for us we grew up in i it's not home for us we grew up in i grew up in cincinnati ohio grew up in cincinnati ohio grew up in cincinnati ohio my dad's a pastor out there so i'm one my dad's a pastor out there so i'm one my dad's a pastor out there so i'm one of the pk's that of the pk's that of the pk's that survived i guess and made it um i've survived i guess and made it um i've survived i guess and made it um i've been a i've been a church kid my whole been a i've been a church kid my whole been a i've been a church kid my whole life been on the front pew or life been on the front pew or life been on the front pew or front row um since day one and um front row um since day one and um front row um since day one and um so yeah i i um a lot of my growing up so yeah i i um a lot of my growing up so yeah i i um a lot of my growing up days were figuring out what could i do days were figuring out what could i do days were figuring out what could i do in the creative space um and i didn't in the creative space um and i didn't in the creative space um and i didn't necessarily see that being in the church necessarily see that being in the church necessarily see that being in the church because the church space wasn't always because the church space wasn't always because the church space wasn't always that creative but god continued to that creative but god continued to that creative but god continued to as i said no more and more um god had as i said no more and more um god had as i said no more and more um god had other plans and so i went to school other plans and so i went to school other plans and so i went to school um to study media communications um to study media communications um to study media communications thinking i'd be in a thinking i'd be in a thinking i'd be in a you know ad agency or run a company or you know ad agency or run a company or you know ad agency or run a company or something like that and that kind of something like that and that kind of something like that and that kind of space space space and i'm god's just continued to use and i'm god's just continued to use and i'm god's just continued to use things all the way from things all the way from things all the way from early ministry on um to be able to help early ministry on um to be able to help early ministry on um to be able to help shape me to do what i do now shape me to do what i do now shape me to do what i do now and so i've been at westridge church for and so i've been at westridge church for and so i've been at westridge church for almost 11 years almost 11 years almost 11 years i can't believe that as so i started off i can't believe that as so i started off i can't believe that as so i started off as communications director came as communications director came as communications director came in really just to help build and create in really just to help build and create in really just to help build and create the communications team so the communications team so the communications team so we were like a lot of churches that just we were like a lot of churches that just we were like a lot of churches that just had no system had no system had no system structure resources team my team meeting structure resources team my team meeting structure resources team my team meeting was me was me was me closing the door and you know figuring closing the door and you know figuring closing the door and you know figuring it out and stuff so

it out and stuff so it out and stuff so it was a lot of building and a lot of it was a lot of building and a lot of it was a lot of building and a lot of lessons learned lessons learned lessons learned through that phase and and so it served through that phase and and so it served through that phase and and so it served in that role for about four and a half in that role for about four and a half in that role for about four and a half years and then um years and then um years and then um moved into our creative arts pastor role moved into our creative arts pastor role moved into our creative arts pastor role and so have been and so have been and so have been in that role ever since then so get to in that role ever since then so get to in that role ever since then so get to serve with and lead an incredible team serve with and lead an incredible team serve with and lead an incredible team of creatives so for us that's our of creatives so for us that's our of creatives so for us that's our worship production video communications worship production video communications worship production video communications um and our thing at the end of the day um and our thing at the end of the day um and our thing at the end of the day is um we love is um we love is um we love we love tech just like everybody we love we love tech just like everybody we love we love tech just like everybody we love you all all that we you all all that we you all all that we get into songs and guitars and all that get into songs and guitars and all that get into songs and guitars and all that stuff but our thing stuff but our thing stuff but our thing more than anything is we just want to more than anything is we just want to more than anything is we just want to put jesus on display and put him in the put jesus on display and put him in the put jesus on display and put him in the spotlight so i get to spotlight so i get to spotlight so i get to be able to just be a part of that be able to just be a part of that be able to just be a part of that through our team and help us try to do through our team and help us try to do through our team and help us try to do that as well as we can that as well as we can that as well as we can wow so so you've you've you know wow so so you've you've you know wow so so you've you've you know here we are we're we're in in in march here we are we're we're in in in march here we are we're we're in in in march of 2021 we're kind of coming out of this of 2021 we're kind of coming out of this of 2021 we're kind of coming out of this last year which is you know er the last year which is you know er the last year which is you know er the church was turned upside down church was turned upside down church was turned upside down you guys have navigated through that um you guys have navigated through that um you guys have navigated through that um what kind of what kind of what kind of what kind of things are you doing today what kind of things are you doing today what kind of things are you doing today that you had no idea you'd be doing a that you had no idea you'd be doing a that you had no idea you'd be doing a year ago like there's just year ago like there's just year ago like there's just like it's crazy what how have you like it's crazy what how have you like it's crazy what how have you responded responded responded yeah i mean i'm one of those crazy yeah i mean i'm one of those crazy yeah i mean i'm one of those crazy people that people that people that i wasn't excited for this by any means i wasn't excited for this by any means i wasn't excited for this by any means but at the same time but at the same time but at the same time when everything when this all started to when everything when this all started to when everything when this all started to happen i mean i remember going back happen i mean i remember going back happen i mean i remember going back thinking back to a meeting i was having thinking back to a meeting i was having thinking back to a meeting i was having with um with my team with um with my team with um with my team and we were sitting around and i was and we were sitting around and i was and we were sitting around and i was saying hey we may need to be ready for a saying hey we may need to be ready for a saying hey we may need to be ready for a couple weeks to just be online and they couple weeks to just be online and they couple weeks to just be online and they were like you're crazy what are you were like you're crazy what are you were like you're crazy what are you talking about

talking about talking about and i was crazy to think just a couple and i was crazy to think just a couple and i was crazy to think just a couple weeks you know weeks you know weeks you know so i mean there's no way to be prepared so i mean there's no way to be prepared so i mean there's no way to be prepared for all this but at the same time it was for all this but at the same time it was for all this but at the same time it was kind of energizing kind of energizing kind of energizing partly for what i get to do because i partly for what i get to do because i partly for what i get to do because i mean i wrote a book on rethinking mean i wrote a book on rethinking mean i wrote a book on rethinking communication communication communication largely with a lot of this stuff in mind largely with a lot of this stuff in mind largely with a lot of this stuff in mind not a pandemic in mind but not a pandemic in mind but not a pandemic in mind but with the the mindset of how do we reach with the the mindset of how do we reach with the the mindset of how do we reach people physically and digitally and help people physically and digitally and help people physically and digitally and help put jesus on display in both worlds put jesus on display in both worlds put jesus on display in both worlds um and seeing all these new um and seeing all these new um and seeing all these new opportunities opportunities opportunities that part was really energizing so it's that part was really energizing so it's that part was really energizing so it's led to some really great conversations led to some really great conversations led to some really great conversations with leadership with our with leadership with our with leadership with our with um repositioning how we're doing with um repositioning how we're doing with um repositioning how we're doing some things some things some things um just to be more intentional with how um just to be more intentional with how um just to be more intentional with how we're actually we're actually we're actually reaching people when they go to church reaching people when they go to church reaching people when they go to church in person and as they go in person and as they go in person and as they go out in the community and as they engage out in the community and as they engage out in the community and as they engage with us in person and online with us in person and online with us in person and online um so i feel like we were we were having um so i feel like we were we were having um so i feel like we were we were having the right conversations before but it the right conversations before but it the right conversations before but it prepared us to be able to jump right in prepared us to be able to jump right in prepared us to be able to jump right in and say how do we take it up another and say how do we take it up another and say how do we take it up another level level level and get really intentional but the thing and get really intentional but the thing and get really intentional but the thing that i'm actually most excited about for that i'm actually most excited about for that i'm actually most excited about for for um for our team as a whole is for um for our team as a whole is for um for our team as a whole is there's just another level of awareness there's just another level of awareness there's just another level of awareness i think of i think of i think of how the the student ministry how the the student ministry how the the student ministry the kids ministry women's ministry every the kids ministry women's ministry every the kids ministry women's ministry every ministry has a role to play ministry has a role to play ministry has a role to play and they may have not signed up for and they may have not signed up for and they may have not signed up for online to be an online minister but they online to be an online minister but they online to be an online minister but they are one now are one now are one now um because if if god called them to um because if if god called them to um because if if god called them to reach people reach people reach people if god if if you're a women's ministry if god if if you're a women's ministry if god if if you're a women's ministry leader leader leader and god called you to reach women he's and god called you to reach women he's and god called you to reach women he's also called you to reach them online

also called you to reach them online also called you to reach them online because that's where they are because that's where they are because that's where they are and that doesn't mean you have to leave and that doesn't mean you have to leave and that doesn't mean you have to leave them there but it means you have to them there but it means you have to them there but it means you have to reach them there reach them there reach them there and stuff so the hunger of um not only and stuff so the hunger of um not only and stuff so the hunger of um not only people in our church but people in our church but people in our church but churches all across the country to say churches all across the country to say churches all across the country to say hey i want to hey i want to hey i want to i want to make sure that i'm not that i want to make sure that i'm not that i want to make sure that i'm not that i'm leveraging this i'm leveraging this i'm leveraging this season not wasting it has been really season not wasting it has been really season not wasting it has been really energizing and exciting energizing and exciting energizing and exciting well so you wrote this book rethink well so you wrote this book rethink well so you wrote this book rethink communication what i think 2018 communication what i think 2018 communication what i think 2018 yeah beginning of 2019 that's what it is yeah beginning of 2019 that's what it is yeah beginning of 2019 that's what it is 2019 released 2019 released 2019 released timely timely what do you think about timely timely what do you think about timely timely what do you think about rethink communication rethink communication rethink communication what inspired you to write this book and what inspired you to write this book and what inspired you to write this book and what what prompted this what what prompted this what what prompted this yeah well so like i mentioned earlier my yeah well so like i mentioned earlier my yeah well so like i mentioned earlier my first couple years in communications first couple years in communications first couple years in communications were were were i learned a ton but most of it was i learned a ton but most of it was i learned a ton but most of it was learning it the hard way learning it the hard way learning it the hard way um and learning it on the on the fringes um and learning it on the on the fringes um and learning it on the on the fringes of burnout of burnout of burnout and um and so for me the the biggest and um and so for me the the biggest and um and so for me the the biggest thing was thing was thing was i i see myself and so many other leaders i i see myself and so many other leaders i i see myself and so many other leaders across the country across the country across the country that are saying hey we don't know where that are saying hey we don't know where that are saying hey we don't know where to start like i didn't get trained in to start like i didn't get trained in to start like i didn't get trained in this i didn't this i didn't this i didn't go to school for this um there was no go to school for this um there was no go to school for this um there was no playbook playbook playbook you know out there and um so that was my you know out there and um so that was my you know out there and um so that was my heart so i just wanted to kind of create heart so i just wanted to kind of create heart so i just wanted to kind of create a playbook from a playbook from a playbook from the things that i've learned to give you the things that i've learned to give you the things that i've learned to give you a way to be able to help communicate a way to be able to help communicate a way to be able to help communicate anything that your church is anything that your church is anything that your church is communicating and communicating and communicating and the the other piece was i really wanted the the other piece was i really wanted the the other piece was i really wanted to do that with the senior pastor and to do that with the senior pastor and to do that with the senior pastor and ministry leaders in mind ministry leaders in mind ministry leaders in mind um it sounds like a bad joke but like if um it sounds like a bad joke but like if um it sounds like a bad joke but like if you pictured a you pictured a you pictured a senior pastor a ministry leader and a senior pastor a ministry leader and a senior pastor a ministry leader and a communications leader sitting down at a communications leader sitting down at a communications leader sitting down at a bar

bar bar or a coffee shop i mean um like that's or a coffee shop i mean um like that's or a coffee shop i mean um like that's kind of what i had in my mind is i kind of what i had in my mind is i kind of what i had in my mind is i wanted wanted wanted something that everybody could lean in something that everybody could lean in something that everybody could lean in lean into together lean into together lean into together to figure out what's changed in the to figure out what's changed in the to figure out what's changed in the church and how do we need to change church and how do we need to change church and how do we need to change as the church to communicate the as the church to communicate the as the church to communicate the greatest message ever greatest message ever greatest message ever well you know i mean we we get the well you know i mean we we get the well you know i mean we we get the opportunity to talk to a lot of churches opportunity to talk to a lot of churches opportunity to talk to a lot of churches around the country around the country around the country and you can imagine the the the we and you can imagine the the the we and you can imagine the the the we we talked from everybody from lead we talked from everybody from lead we talked from everybody from lead pastors down to the new communication pastors down to the new communication pastors down to the new communication director who was just a director who was just a director who was just a a children's ministry assistant last a children's ministry assistant last a children's ministry assistant last month but month but month but she got the you know the short end of she got the you know the short end of she got the you know the short end of the stick and now she's the the stick and now she's the the stick and now she's the communication director i mean that communication director i mean that communication director i mean that literally happens and literally happens and literally happens and you know they step in that space and you know they step in that space and you know they step in that space and they're like okay where do we begin you they're like okay where do we begin you they're like okay where do we begin you know they're know they're know they're because they're gifted they're talented because they're gifted they're talented because they're gifted they're talented and they're they're good leaders but and they're they're good leaders but and they're they're good leaders but again they have no idea and sometimes again they have no idea and sometimes again they have no idea and sometimes it's just it's just it's just who has a mac on staff okay you're the who has a mac on staff okay you're the who has a mac on staff okay you're the community's director if you're anybody here know photoshop if if you're anybody here know photoshop if you've if you've ever used photoshop you've if you've ever used photoshop you've if you've ever used photoshop before before before you might be the communications director you might be the communications director you might be the communications director pretty much yeah that's kind of where it pretty much yeah that's kind of where it pretty much yeah that's kind of where it goes well goes well goes well let me ask you let me ask you a question let me ask you let me ask you a question let me ask you let me ask you a question on the note of the playbook jay you on the note of the playbook jay you on the note of the playbook jay you talked a little bit about talked a little bit about talked a little bit about the playbook jason talked about the book the playbook jason talked about the book the playbook jason talked about the book rethink communication rethink communication rethink communication one of the things that you do in the one of the things that you do in the one of the things that you do in the book is you you kind of describe book is you you kind of describe book is you you kind of describe very accurately what a lot of very accurately what a lot of very accurately what a lot of communication communications directors communication communications directors communication communications directors live in which is you you just call it live in which is you you just call it live in which is you you just call it chaos right it's it's chaos it's chaos right it's it's chaos it's chaos right it's it's chaos it's early mornings it's late nights it's a early mornings it's late nights it's a early mornings it's late nights it's a whole lot of spinning plates whole lot of spinning plates whole lot of spinning plates um you're in a large church and and when um you're in a large church and and when um you're in a large church and and when you're in a large church and there are a you're in a large church and there are a you're in a large church and there are a lot of different ministries in a lot of

lot of different ministries in a lot of lot of different ministries in a lot of different departments different departments different departments um it it's a lot to take in and you know um it it's a lot to take in and you know um it it's a lot to take in and you know we have conversations with these types we have conversations with these types we have conversations with these types of communications directors and leaders of communications directors and leaders of communications directors and leaders all the time all the time all the time and they're always working to try to and they're always working to try to and they're always working to try to figure out how to prioritize my time figure out how to prioritize my time figure out how to prioritize my time and the things that i'm i'm i'm focused and the things that i'm i'm i'm focused and the things that i'm i'm i'm focused on um on um on um you know the urgent always seems to you know the urgent always seems to you know the urgent always seems to trump trump trump everything else because everybody's need everything else because everybody's need everything else because everybody's need is super urgent is super urgent is super urgent and so you kind of paint this picture of and so you kind of paint this picture of and so you kind of paint this picture of chaos which i think anybody who reads chaos which i think anybody who reads chaos which i think anybody who reads the book who's the book who's the book who's living in the communications space in a living in the communications space in a living in the communications space in a church is going to go yep that's church is going to go yep that's church is going to go yep that's where i am or at least that's where i've where i am or at least that's where i've where i am or at least that's where i've been that's me that's me right been that's me that's me right been that's me that's me right um and then you actually kind of break um and then you actually kind of break um and then you actually kind of break things down into some things down into some things down into some steps as far as a playbook is concerned steps as far as a playbook is concerned steps as far as a playbook is concerned um you want to just kind of walk through um you want to just kind of walk through um you want to just kind of walk through maybe just some of the highlights of maybe just some of the highlights of maybe just some of the highlights of those those those things that you would coach someone on things that you would coach someone on things that you would coach someone on to say if you're living in this chaos to say if you're living in this chaos to say if you're living in this chaos these are a few little nuggets that these are a few little nuggets that these are a few little nuggets that would help you would help you would help you kind of prioritize your time and kind of prioritize your time and kind of prioritize your time and prioritize the energies that you're prioritize the energies that you're prioritize the energies that you're putting into communications putting into communications putting into communications yeah great question i think um i mean yeah great question i think um i mean yeah great question i think um i mean this is a great time i think for this is a great time i think for this is a great time i think for churches to lean into this because i churches to lean into this because i churches to lean into this because i think at the beginning of covet you had think at the beginning of covet you had think at the beginning of covet you had the excuse of hey we don't know what the excuse of hey we don't know what the excuse of hey we don't know what next next next two days are going to look like so we two days are going to look like so we two days are going to look like so we can't plan and a lot of churches are can't plan and a lot of churches are can't plan and a lot of churches are have created a year-long rhythm of that have created a year-long rhythm of that have created a year-long rhythm of that and there there are communication and there there are communication and there there are communication leaders out there everywhere that are at leaders out there everywhere that are at leaders out there everywhere that are at the end of the road burned out the end of the road burned out the end of the road burned out um so it's a great time to to have these um so it's a great time to to have these um so it's a great time to to have these questions if you're in questions if you're in questions if you're in in that communications role or you're in that communications role or you're in that communications role or you're leading that um especially if you're leading that um especially if you're leading that um especially if you're leading leading leading leading or overseeing those people lean leading or overseeing those people lean leading or overseeing those people lean into this so into this so into this so i think um in the book i walk through

i think um in the book i walk through i think um in the book i walk through the playbook you know from beginning to the playbook you know from beginning to the playbook you know from beginning to end of how do you end of how do you end of how do you how do you think through and clarify how do you think through and clarify how do you think through and clarify that message before you start that message before you start that message before you start communicating it and how do you communicating it and how do you communicating it and how do you effectively build a plan and all that effectively build a plan and all that effectively build a plan and all that stuff stuff stuff um so that's there but the the for you um so that's there but the the for you um so that's there but the the for you to check out if you'd like but to check out if you'd like but to check out if you'd like but i think that the number one game changer i think that the number one game changer i think that the number one game changer thing for me thing for me thing for me that was clarifying and and clarifying that was clarifying and and clarifying that was clarifying and and clarifying for me as a leader but also clarifying for me as a leader but also clarifying for me as a leader but also clarifying for our church for our church for our church is we stop trying to make everything is we stop trying to make everything is we stop trying to make everything important um when everything's important important um when everything's important important um when everything's important nothing's important nothing's important nothing's important when you try to put the burden on a when you try to put the burden on a when you try to put the burden on a communications person or a church to say communications person or a church to say communications person or a church to say make all of this stuff known um and make all of this stuff known um and make all of this stuff known um and communicate communicate communicate all it's you're talking about an all it's you're talking about an all it's you're talking about an impossible task impossible task impossible task because most people don't don't always because most people don't don't always because most people don't don't always think or realize that think or realize that think or realize that for a message that for somebody to take for a message that for somebody to take for a message that for somebody to take a next step to respond to a message a next step to respond to a message a next step to respond to a message it usually takes about seven it usually takes about seven it usually takes about seven interactions for that interactions for that interactions for that with that message before somebody makes with that message before somebody makes with that message before somebody makes a response a response a response so if you're trying to communicate five so if you're trying to communicate five so if you're trying to communicate five things things things on a sunday think about how difficult on a sunday think about how difficult on a sunday think about how difficult that is for that message to actually that is for that message to actually that is for that message to actually stick stick stick because people are tuning out so the because people are tuning out so the because people are tuning out so the number one thing that i number one thing that i number one thing that i would try to encourage churches to do is would try to encourage churches to do is would try to encourage churches to do is to pick for each week of the year to pick for each week of the year to pick for each week of the year what are the one to two most important what are the one to two most important what are the one to two most important messages from your church messages from your church messages from your church and then make sure that that's really and then make sure that that's really and then make sure that that's really clear and then clear and then clear and then leverage your communication channels all leverage your communication channels all leverage your communication channels all across the board in person across the board in person across the board in person and online in digital stuff to be able and online in digital stuff to be able and online in digital stuff to be able to help tell the story of what god's to help tell the story of what god's to help tell the story of what god's doing through that message doing through that message doing through that message and that may be a um that might be a

and that may be a um that might be a and that may be a um that might be a a new sermon series that may be a new a new sermon series that may be a new a new sermon series that may be a new service time that may be service time that may be service time that may be a giving initiative any number of a giving initiative any number of a giving initiative any number of messages but if it's not messages but if it's not messages but if it's not more important than those one to do more important than those one to do more important than those one to do things then like then it probably needs things then like then it probably needs things then like then it probably needs to be communicated in a different way or to be communicated in a different way or to be communicated in a different way or in a more in a more in a more um a more niche way in that way instead um a more niche way in that way instead um a more niche way in that way instead of of of trying to to like to be trying to to like to be trying to to like to be more important than the other stuff so more important than the other stuff so more important than the other stuff so when you as a church can clarify that when you as a church can clarify that when you as a church can clarify that you give your communications team and you give your communications team and you give your communications team and creative team the creative team the creative team the the greatest clarity to be able to say the greatest clarity to be able to say the greatest clarity to be able to say put all your creative energy into these put all your creative energy into these put all your creative energy into these things things things right knock it out of the park make sure right knock it out of the park make sure right knock it out of the park make sure that you are are that you are are that you are are really effectively not just getting the really effectively not just getting the really effectively not just getting the job done and check job done and check job done and check making that task um get completed but making that task um get completed but making that task um get completed but really you're saying how do i really you're saying how do i really you're saying how do i how do i creatively tell this story in a how do i creatively tell this story in a how do i creatively tell this story in a unique way on social media and how do we unique way on social media and how do we unique way on social media and how do we leverage this message in service um how leverage this message in service um how leverage this message in service um how do we do we do we how do we use email and our app to be how do we use email and our app to be how do we use email and our app to be able to help able to help able to help help people engage in these things they help people engage in these things they help people engage in these things they can't do it if you're giving them eight can't do it if you're giving them eight can't do it if you're giving them eight things but if you give them one to two things but if you give them one to two things but if you give them one to two you'll be amazed by the you'll be amazed by the you'll be amazed by the the creative energy that gets put into the creative energy that gets put into the creative energy that gets put into it and the clarity that happens for the it and the clarity that happens for the it and the clarity that happens for the people you're trying to reach people you're trying to reach people you're trying to reach um when when you're not giving them a um when when you're not giving them a um when when you're not giving them a whole menu of things to whole menu of things to whole menu of things to engage with when i think you just get engage with when i think you just get engage with when i think you just get you get burned out by that right i mean you get burned out by that right i mean you get burned out by that right i mean as a as a staff person it's overwhelming as a as a staff person it's overwhelming as a as a staff person it's overwhelming and all of a sudden we we are turning and all of a sudden we we are turning and all of a sudden we we are turning into counselors into counselors into counselors trying to counsel them through that and trying to counsel them through that and trying to counsel them through that and almost their therapist rather than almost their therapist rather than almost their therapist rather than giving them giving them giving them ideas and i think that that's the ideas and i think that that's the ideas and i think that that's the biggest yeah i see that all the time

biggest yeah i see that all the time biggest yeah i see that all the time that's the biggest that's the biggest that's the biggest if church if you guys are doing that to if church if you guys are doing that to if church if you guys are doing that to your team please stop your team please stop your team please stop you know well and if and there's staffs you know well and if and there's staffs you know well and if and there's staffs that are so burned out that are so burned out that are so burned out and tired from trying to play this event and tired from trying to play this event and tired from trying to play this event cycle cycle cycle and think about if you're burned out as and think about if you're burned out as and think about if you're burned out as a full-time staff member a full-time staff member a full-time staff member think about how think about the burden think about how think about the burden think about how think about the burden that we're we're trading all that work that we're we're trading all that work that we're we're trading all that work that we're not willing to do of of that we're not willing to do of of that we're not willing to do of of trying to create clarity for trying to create clarity for trying to create clarity for the people we're trying to reach and the people we're trying to reach and the people we're trying to reach and we're putting that on the shoulders of we're putting that on the shoulders of we're putting that on the shoulders of the people the people the people um that we want to engage in these very um that we want to engage in these very um that we want to engage in these very things called in the church things called in the church things called in the church so we got to do the hard work to clarify so we got to do the hard work to clarify so we got to do the hard work to clarify it so that we're not putting all that it so that we're not putting all that it so that we're not putting all that all that baggage on the people we're all that baggage on the people we're all that baggage on the people we're trying to reach hi bart blair here i'm trying to reach hi bart blair here i'm trying to reach hi bart blair here i'm the producer of missional marketing's the producer of missional marketing's the producer of missional marketing's church growth interviews podcast church growth interviews podcast church growth interviews podcast on behalf of our entire team we really on behalf of our entire team we really on behalf of our entire team we really appreciate you tuning in appreciate you tuning in appreciate you tuning in let me ask you a question if you're a let me ask you a question if you're a let me ask you a question if you're a church leader or a church communications church leader or a church communications church leader or a church communications professional professional professional do you know how google sees your church do you know how google sees your church do you know how google sees your church website website website in other words if people in your in other words if people in your in other words if people in your community were to google community were to google community were to google churches near me or best church in my churches near me or best church in my churches near me or best church in my city or city or city or good church nearby do you know where good church nearby do you know where good church nearby do you know where your church website would show up in your church website would show up in your church website would show up in those search results those search results those search results at the top maybe or somewhere in the at the top maybe or somewhere in the at the top maybe or somewhere in the middle or somewhere on page four middle or somewhere on page four middle or somewhere on page four you know there's a common you know there's a common you know there's a common misunderstanding that if we simply build misunderstanding that if we simply build misunderstanding that if we simply build a great website and we launch it that a great website and we launch it that a great website and we launch it that google will somehow work its google will somehow work its google will somehow work its magic and people will find us online but magic and people will find us online but magic and people will find us online but there's a bit more art and science to there's a bit more art and science to there's a bit more art and science to making sure that your church website making sure that your church website making sure that your church website shows up in the top shows up in the top shows up in the top of those search results and that science of those search results and that science of those search results and that science is called local seo is called local seo is called local seo or local search engine optimization in or local search engine optimization in or local search engine optimization in additional marketing additional marketing additional marketing local seo is one of the core services

local seo is one of the core services local seo is one of the core services that we provide for churches all across that we provide for churches all across that we provide for churches all across the united states and canada the united states and canada the united states and canada we'd love to help you if you'd like to we'd love to help you if you'd like to we'd love to help you if you'd like to learn more click to our website at learn more click to our website at learn more click to our website at missionalmarketing.com and follow the missionalmarketing.com and follow the missionalmarketing.com and follow the link at the top of the page that says link at the top of the page that says link at the top of the page that says church church church seo you can request a free local seo seo you can request a free local seo seo you can request a free local seo report to see report to see report to see how your church is showing up in google how your church is showing up in google how your church is showing up in google these days and you can schedule an these days and you can schedule an these days and you can schedule an appointment to talk with jason appointment to talk with jason appointment to talk with jason or with me or with one of our other or with me or with one of our other or with me or with one of our other digital strategists to help you decide digital strategists to help you decide digital strategists to help you decide whether or not whether or not whether or not a local seo boost is right for your a local seo boost is right for your a local seo boost is right for your church hey again church hey again church hey again we appreciate you tuning in to our we appreciate you tuning in to our we appreciate you tuning in to our podcast and we look forward to the podcast and we look forward to the podcast and we look forward to the opportunity to serving you opportunity to serving you opportunity to serving you in your church and reaching more people in your church and reaching more people in your church and reaching more people for jesus now back to the show for jesus now back to the show for jesus now back to the show i'm gonna i'm gonna ask you a question i'm gonna i'm gonna ask you a question i'm gonna i'm gonna ask you a question i'm gonna ask both of you the same i'm gonna ask both of you the same i'm gonna ask both of you the same question i'm gonna question i'm gonna question i'm gonna let phil answer it first because he's let phil answer it first because he's let phil answer it first because he's our our guest our our guest our our guest um but but both of you like jason spent um but but both of you like jason spent um but but both of you like jason spent a number of years as a communications a number of years as a communications a number of years as a communications director in a large director in a large director in a large multi-campus church uh failure you're in multi-campus church uh failure you're in multi-campus church uh failure you're in a large church there's lots of ministry a large church there's lots of ministry a large church there's lots of ministry you've got lots of staff you've got lots of staff you've got lots of staff one of the things that you said just a one of the things that you said just a one of the things that you said just a minute ago is okay as a as a minute ago is okay as a as a minute ago is okay as a as a lead team i'm kind of summarizing here lead team i'm kind of summarizing here lead team i'm kind of summarizing here as a lead team we're going to prioritize as a lead team we're going to prioritize as a lead team we're going to prioritize the things that are basically going to the things that are basically going to the things that are basically going to get get get our a1 tier 1 high level our a1 tier 1 high level our a1 tier 1 high level vision space like this is this is vision space like this is this is vision space like this is this is getting platform time on sunday morning getting platform time on sunday morning getting platform time on sunday morning this is getting prime this is getting prime this is getting prime spot on the website and in social media spot on the website and in social media spot on the website and in social media but i have but i have but i have i i'm i'm another staff member in the i i'm i'm another staff member in the i i'm i'm another staff member in the church and maybe i'm coming from the church and maybe i'm coming from the church and maybe i'm coming from the men's ministry or the children's men's ministry or the children's men's ministry or the children's ministry ministry ministry or the prayer ministry and i have or the prayer ministry and i have or the prayer ministry and i have something that's important something that's important something that's important something that i think everybody ought something that i think everybody ought something that i think everybody ought to know about or an event or an activity to know about or an event or an activity to know about or an event or an activity that i really want to promote

that i really want to promote that i really want to promote how are you going to coach me on how i how are you going to coach me on how i how are you going to coach me on how i can best use my can best use my can best use my resources to communicate what i need to resources to communicate what i need to resources to communicate what i need to to the people that i to the people that i to the people that i want to hear my message how how would want to hear my message how how would want to hear my message how how would you communicate how would you basically you communicate how would you basically you communicate how would you basically say say say no we're not going to give you the time no we're not going to give you the time no we're not going to give you the time and the space that you want and the space that you want and the space that you want but here's how i can help you more but here's how i can help you more but here's how i can help you more effectively communicate to the people effectively communicate to the people effectively communicate to the people you need to communicate to you need to communicate to you need to communicate to yeah great question and i think that's yeah great question and i think that's yeah great question and i think that's the tension every ministry leader has the tension every ministry leader has the tension every ministry leader has and it's and it's and it's as a it's an important like we as a it's an important like we as a it's an important like we we need hungry passionate ministry we need hungry passionate ministry we need hungry passionate ministry leaders that are fighting for leaders that are fighting for leaders that are fighting for for that very thing we that's way better for that very thing we that's way better for that very thing we that's way better than a bunch of people that don't care than a bunch of people that don't care than a bunch of people that don't care if anybody if anybody if anybody is engaging with it so i'll take that is engaging with it so i'll take that is engaging with it so i'll take that problem all day long problem all day long problem all day long i mean there's there's two strategies i i mean there's there's two strategies i i mean there's there's two strategies i think that are are important for this think that are are important for this think that are are important for this neither of them happen overnight but neither of them happen overnight but neither of them happen overnight but they have to be fought for over time to they have to be fought for over time to they have to be fought for over time to be able to be effective be able to be effective be able to be effective so one thing is every ministry area so one thing is every ministry area so one thing is every ministry area if it's important enough to to invest in if it's important enough to to invest in if it's important enough to to invest in as a church as a church as a church it's important enough to have a key it's important enough to have a key it's important enough to have a key on-ramp um on-ramp um on-ramp um way for people to engage in that way for people to engage in that way for people to engage in that ministry all throughout the year ministry all throughout the year ministry all throughout the year um and so if if you're now um and so if if you're now um and so if if you're now does that mean that you give it does that mean that you give it does that mean that you give it attention every single week no you attention every single week no you attention every single week no you probably can't probably can't probably can't but um like for example our kids but um like for example our kids but um like for example our kids ministry a ministry a ministry a very very important ministry in our very very important ministry in our very very important ministry in our church um church um church um do we talk about the family movie night do we talk about the family movie night do we talk about the family movie night or the or the or the you know the kind of one-off events all you know the kind of one-off events all you know the kind of one-off events all the time we really don't we try to equip the time we really don't we try to equip the time we really don't we try to equip that ministry with the tools they need that ministry with the tools they need that ministry with the tools they need to most effectively reach to most effectively reach to most effectively reach their tribe of people but what we try to

their tribe of people but what we try to their tribe of people but what we try to do as a church do as a church do as a church and as we communicate all across the and as we communicate all across the and as we communicate all across the year is year is year is when we are approaching their key when we are approaching their key when we are approaching their key on-ramp ministry which is their summer on-ramp ministry which is their summer on-ramp ministry which is their summer camp camp camp we go all out i mean we spend three to we go all out i mean we spend three to we go all out i mean we spend three to four weeks four weeks four weeks of that being our most most important or of that being our most most important or of that being our most most important or our second most important message our second most important message our second most important message and we creatively tell the story of what and we creatively tell the story of what and we creatively tell the story of what god's doing through our kids camp god's doing through our kids camp god's doing through our kids camp and as people hear about that and engage and as people hear about that and engage and as people hear about that and engage in that we know that they're in that we know that they're in that we know that they're if they take a next step to get engaged if they take a next step to get engaged if they take a next step to get engaged in that camp now in that camp now in that camp now they are in our database they're in our they are in our database they're in our they are in our database they're in our tribe they've given us permission to tribe they've given us permission to tribe they've given us permission to kind of connect with them and engage kind of connect with them and engage kind of connect with them and engage with them with them with them and they're involved in our ministry now and they're involved in our ministry now and they're involved in our ministry now so now kids ministry can help drive that so now kids ministry can help drive that so now kids ministry can help drive that targeted communication to them targeted communication to them targeted communication to them um all across the year so giving giving um all across the year so giving giving um all across the year so giving giving each ministry an on-ramp time is really each ministry an on-ramp time is really each ministry an on-ramp time is really important because it gives them that important because it gives them that important because it gives them that church-wide um you know promotion and church-wide um you know promotion and church-wide um you know promotion and awareness for everybody um but it allows awareness for everybody um but it allows awareness for everybody um but it allows them to leverage that as a jumping off them to leverage that as a jumping off them to leverage that as a jumping off point to make sure that they're point to make sure that they're point to make sure that they're leveraging leveraging leveraging that all across the year the the second that all across the year the the second that all across the year the the second thing i alluded to is just making sure thing i alluded to is just making sure thing i alluded to is just making sure as ministry leaders we are partners with as ministry leaders we are partners with as ministry leaders we are partners with them them them um as as communication leaders we need um as as communication leaders we need um as as communication leaders we need to partner with them all throughout the to partner with them all throughout the to partner with them all throughout the year to make sure that they year to make sure that they year to make sure that they have the resources they need to be able have the resources they need to be able have the resources they need to be able to take the mantle on of to take the mantle on of to take the mantle on of effectively communicating their ministry effectively communicating their ministry effectively communicating their ministry um um um because their their most effective way because their their most effective way because their their most effective way to do that is not from putting up a to do that is not from putting up a to do that is not from putting up a pre-service slide it's their network pre-service slide it's their network pre-service slide it's their network it's their it's their it's their relationships it's their social media relationships it's their social media relationships it's their social media posts that's they want to connect with posts that's they want to connect with posts that's they want to connect with that that that like the people that want to come to like the people that want to come to like the people that want to come to that event they want to connect with

that event they want to connect with that event they want to connect with that so that so that so um we just need to give them the tools um we just need to give them the tools um we just need to give them the tools and resources and and you know put put and resources and and you know put put and resources and and you know put put things up on on the website and make things up on on the website and make things up on on the website and make sure they have a good central hub for sure they have a good central hub for sure they have a good central hub for people to stay connected on that stuff people to stay connected on that stuff people to stay connected on that stuff um but we've got to partner with them um but we've got to partner with them um but we've got to partner with them all throughout the year to make sure all throughout the year to make sure all throughout the year to make sure that they can that they can that they can they've got the resources they need to they've got the resources they need to they've got the resources they need to help help tell the story of their help help tell the story of their help help tell the story of their ministry ministry ministry jason what would you what yeah i want to jason what would you what yeah i want to jason what would you what yeah i want to know what you want to add to that know what you want to add to that know what you want to add to that because my perception jason is that when because my perception jason is that when because my perception jason is that when you you you were uh leading in in your church you were uh leading in in your church you were uh leading in in your church you loved to say no to people like that's loved to say no to people like that's loved to say no to people like that's the perception that i have the perception that i have the perception that i have jason i think took pride in saying no jason i think took pride in saying no jason i think took pride in saying no you're not getting what you are asking you're not getting what you are asking you're not getting what you are asking for so i i mean well for so i i mean well for so i i mean well yeah because i think if if you start to yeah because i think if if you start to yeah because i think if if you start to say yes all the time then you create say yes all the time then you create say yes all the time then you create uh a bad habit of ministries thinking uh a bad habit of ministries thinking uh a bad habit of ministries thinking that you're going to be that you're going to be that you're going to be the one communications department that's the one communications department that's the one communications department that's going to make my event successful going to make my event successful going to make my event successful and that's just impossible to live up to and that's just impossible to live up to and that's just impossible to live up to that reality that reality that reality every single week week and week out with every single week week and week out with every single week week and week out with all these different ministries all these different ministries all these different ministries so i i not only do i echo and i believe so i i not only do i echo and i believe so i i not only do i echo and i believe exactly what phil just said that through exactly what phil just said that through exactly what phil just said that through storytelling storytelling storytelling and through equipping and giving them and through equipping and giving them and through equipping and giving them the tools necessary the tools necessary the tools necessary and the boundaries these are the and the boundaries these are the and the boundaries these are the boundaries if it doesn't reach boundaries if it doesn't reach boundaries if it doesn't reach the whole room we're not gonna mention the whole room we're not gonna mention the whole room we're not gonna mention it in worship but we're going to give it in worship but we're going to give it in worship but we're going to give you the tools you the tools you the tools the only thing i would add on to this is the only thing i would add on to this is the only thing i would add on to this is i would also try to educate the the i would also try to educate the the i would also try to educate the the ministry that ministry that ministry that this isn't a it's a reverse funnel this isn't a it's a reverse funnel this isn't a it's a reverse funnel okay a normal funnel is we want to reach okay a normal funnel is we want to reach okay a normal funnel is we want to reach everybody and try to get the message everybody and try to get the message everybody and try to get the message everybody knowing that we're going to everybody knowing that we're going to everybody knowing that we're going to funnel down to funnel down to funnel down to the people that are going to get

the people that are going to get the people that are going to get connected to our you know our church or connected to our you know our church or connected to our you know our church or our ministry our ministry our ministry in this case you want to reverse that in this case you want to reverse that in this case you want to reverse that you want to you want to you want to target that small group that's really target that small group that's really target that small group that's really passionate about passionate about passionate about what you are doing as a ministry and what you are doing as a ministry and what you are doing as a ministry and through them it grows and it reaches through them it grows and it reaches through them it grows and it reaches more and more and more people more and more and more people more and more and more people because that's the you know your because that's the you know your because that's the you know your passionate people your tribe passionate people your tribe passionate people your tribe and you said that perfectly that's going and you said that perfectly that's going and you said that perfectly that's going to help grow your tribe to help grow your tribe to help grow your tribe get away from oh i got to have thousands get away from oh i got to have thousands get away from oh i got to have thousands of people of people of people remove the number it's all about change remove the number it's all about change remove the number it's all about change lives lives lives it's all about storytelling it's about it's all about storytelling it's about it's all about storytelling it's about reaching a group of people reaching a group of people reaching a group of people that eventually will continue to grow that eventually will continue to grow that eventually will continue to grow and of course and of course and of course as ministries as you know throughout the as ministries as you know throughout the as ministries as you know throughout the years there's different seasons in these years there's different seasons in these years there's different seasons in these families lives families lives families lives you know bart and i were just talking we you know bart and i were just talking we you know bart and i were just talking we are in a different season than are in a different season than are in a different season than phil is phil's got younger kids we've phil is phil's got younger kids we've phil is phil's got younger kids we've got older kids we're just in different got older kids we're just in different got older kids we're just in different seasons seasons seasons and that happens constantly through the and that happens constantly through the and that happens constantly through the the life of the church the life of the church the life of the church and so the best way to equip ministries and so the best way to equip ministries and so the best way to equip ministries now now now is to um use storytelling and use these is to um use storytelling and use these is to um use storytelling and use these tools to engage people and tools to engage people and tools to engage people and understand there's a there's a reverse understand there's a there's a reverse understand there's a there's a reverse funnel in that funnel in that funnel in that when when we i think that's really well when when we i think that's really well when when we i think that's really well said and i i said and i i said and i i i want to piggyback on that one of the i want to piggyback on that one of the i want to piggyback on that one of the things when we things when we things when we talk to churches about their talk to churches about their talk to churches about their digital outreach strategies their digital outreach strategies their digital outreach strategies their digital marketing the way that they're digital marketing the way that they're digital marketing the way that they're reaching people in their community reaching people in their community reaching people in their community jason and i always qualify every jason and i always qualify every jason and i always qualify every conversation we have with every church conversation we have with every church conversation we have with every church by saying there is no amount of money by saying there is no amount of money by saying there is no amount of money that you can spend that you can spend that you can spend and there is no marketing that you can

and there is no marketing that you can and there is no marketing that you can do that will trump the personal do that will trump the personal do that will trump the personal invitation invitation invitation of the people in your church inviting of the people in your church inviting of the people in your church inviting their friends their family their their friends their family their their friends their family their neighbors neighbors neighbors period the personal invitation it goes period the personal invitation it goes period the personal invitation it goes back 2 back 2 back 2 000 years to jesus's personal invitation 000 years to jesus's personal invitation 000 years to jesus's personal invitation and that's what we need to be doing and and that's what we need to be doing and and that's what we need to be doing and that's what we need to be championing in that's what we need to be championing in that's what we need to be championing in our churches our churches our churches i think sometimes even in the context of i think sometimes even in the context of i think sometimes even in the context of our ministries our ministries our ministries we fail to realize that that is still we fail to realize that that is still we fail to realize that that is still even in the context of the men's even in the context of the men's even in the context of the men's ministry the women's ministry the prayer ministry the women's ministry the prayer ministry the women's ministry the prayer team the children's ministry team the children's ministry team the children's ministry that word of mouth uh marketing that that word of mouth uh marketing that that word of mouth uh marketing that uh personal invitation is still the most uh personal invitation is still the most uh personal invitation is still the most valuable valuable valuable asset that any that any ministry leader asset that any that any ministry leader asset that any that any ministry leader has is has is has is find the people that are your that are find the people that are your that are find the people that are your that are evangelists for your ministry and for evangelists for your ministry and for evangelists for your ministry and for your cause and for what you're trying to your cause and for what you're trying to your cause and for what you're trying to do do do get them excited about it if they're get them excited about it if they're get them excited about it if they're excited about it and they understand the excited about it and they understand the excited about it and they understand the vision of what you're trying to vision of what you're trying to vision of what you're trying to accomplish accomplish accomplish then you're more likely to have more then you're more likely to have more then you're more likely to have more successful events and activities and successful events and activities and successful events and activities and engagement in what you're doing because engagement in what you're doing because engagement in what you're doing because they're they're they're they're gonna they're gonna share the they're gonna they're gonna share the they're gonna they're gonna share the love they're gonna spread it around to love they're gonna spread it around to love they're gonna spread it around to the people that need the people that need the people that need that need to know so um i just kind of that need to know so um i just kind of that need to know so um i just kind of add to that there jason add to that there jason add to that there jason hey let's um let's pivot to another hey let's um let's pivot to another hey let's um let's pivot to another question here phil question here phil question here phil um actually let's kind of i'm going to um actually let's kind of i'm going to um actually let's kind of i'm going to kind of go back to the book and ask kind of go back to the book and ask kind of go back to the book and ask another question another question another question you you wrote the book uh right you you wrote the book uh right you you wrote the book uh right you know year half two years prior to you know year half two years prior to you know year half two years prior to the whole coveted thing the whole coveted thing the whole coveted thing um is there anything that you would add um is there anything that you would add um is there anything that you would add to the book today to the book today to the book today in light of what your experience over in light of what your experience over in light of what your experience over the last year has been the last year has been the last year has been um great question i mean there's and um great question i mean there's and um great question i mean there's and there's always time for a second book

there's always time for a second book there's always time for a second book which which which i'm trying to work through weren't for i'm trying to work through weren't for i'm trying to work through weren't for just just just trying to survive this season too um trying to survive this season too um trying to survive this season too um so yeah a lot of things that i think are so yeah a lot of things that i think are so yeah a lot of things that i think are phase two or a different aspect phase two or a different aspect phase two or a different aspect of especially the digital side of of especially the digital side of of especially the digital side of engaging people but engaging people but engaging people but i think probably the the biggest missed i think probably the the biggest missed i think probably the the biggest missed opportunity opportunity opportunity that i think needs to be rethinked for that i think needs to be rethinked for that i think needs to be rethinked for church leaders church leaders church leaders is that the the old way of thinking is that the the old way of thinking is that the the old way of thinking about about about um discipling people was get them to our um discipling people was get them to our um discipling people was get them to our event event event get them to our gathering and then we get them to our gathering and then we get them to our gathering and then we will will will then they'll take the steps and they'll then they'll take the steps and they'll then they'll take the steps and they'll they'll be discipled they'll be discipled they'll be discipled which it's not a it's not that that which it's not a it's not that that which it's not a it's not that that can't happen can't happen can't happen but what i think the missed opportunity but what i think the missed opportunity but what i think the missed opportunity is is there's a lot of people that are is is there's a lot of people that are is is there's a lot of people that are overwhelmed with all the noise that are overwhelmed with all the noise that are overwhelmed with all the noise that are being thrown at them being thrown at them being thrown at them that they're not coming to that event that they're not coming to that event that they're not coming to that event because they don't know it as value to because they don't know it as value to because they don't know it as value to them them them or to their family or to their um to or to their family or to their um to or to their family or to their um to their marriage their marriage their marriage so what if instead of just waiting for so what if instead of just waiting for so what if instead of just waiting for people to come to us we actually said people to come to us we actually said people to come to us we actually said hey hey hey what are these little aspects of order what are these little aspects of order what are these little aspects of order these these these for ex for marriage exam for example for ex for marriage exam for example for ex for marriage exam for example instead of just saying hey we having a instead of just saying hey we having a instead of just saying hey we having a marriage a marriage event for you or a marriage a marriage event for you or a marriage a marriage event for you or a weekly gathering for your marriage to weekly gathering for your marriage to weekly gathering for your marriage to make sure that we can help you make sure that we can help you make sure that we can help you with you with um taking your marriage to with you with um taking your marriage to with you with um taking your marriage to the next level so come here and the next level so come here and the next level so come here and you'll be better like that's one model you'll be better like that's one model you'll be better like that's one model the the other model would be the the other model would be the the other model would be hey this is um this is the story of this hey this is um this is the story of this hey this is um this is the story of this person who has person who has person who has just finished up our marriage um our just finished up our marriage um our just finished up our marriage um our weekly marriage event

weekly marriage event weekly marriage event and here's the three things that were and here's the three things that were and here's the three things that were game changers for their marriage these game changers for their marriage these game changers for their marriage these are three things they took away that you are three things they took away that you are three things they took away that you can use and apply right now can use and apply right now can use and apply right now and that can be a 60-second 90-second and that can be a 60-second 90-second and that can be a 60-second 90-second video that can be a blog post that can video that can be a blog post that can video that can be a blog post that can be a be a be a social media post it gives them value social media post it gives them value social media post it gives them value where they are and it gives them a next where they are and it gives them a next where they are and it gives them a next step and so i think that's what's being step and so i think that's what's being step and so i think that's what's being missed is we're making missed is we're making missed is we're making sure we we are requiring people to take sure we we are requiring people to take sure we we are requiring people to take the next step of the next step of the next step of which is more like a leap to get people which is more like a leap to get people which is more like a leap to get people inside the door to come in person to inside the door to come in person to inside the door to come in person to come to that event to take their time to come to that event to take their time to come to that event to take their time to do that do that do that when instead if we give them small steps when instead if we give them small steps when instead if we give them small steps an added value where they an added value where they an added value where they where wherever we're communicating our where wherever we're communicating our where wherever we're communicating our message online on message online on message online on on our website on our live streams all on our website on our live streams all on our website on our live streams all those things those things those things give them value where they are and then give them value where they are and then give them value where they are and then give them a next step give them a next step give them a next step that's where i think we've got to be that's where i think we've got to be that's where i think we've got to be leaning into this because leaning into this because leaning into this because we have the greatest message and we have we have the greatest message and we have we have the greatest message and we have some of the greatest opportunities some of the greatest opportunities some of the greatest opportunities out there um to help people and actually out there um to help people and actually out there um to help people and actually add value to their lives to make their add value to their lives to make their add value to their lives to make their lives better because we believe that lives better because we believe that lives better because we believe that jesus makes our lives better like we're jesus makes our lives better like we're jesus makes our lives better like we're better people and better better people and better better people and better husbands and wives and kids and all husbands and wives and kids and all husbands and wives and kids and all those things when we have jesus at the those things when we have jesus at the those things when we have jesus at the center of our life so if we believe that center of our life so if we believe that center of our life so if we believe that we need to get that message in front of we need to get that message in front of we need to get that message in front of as many people as we can and give them as many people as we can and give them as many people as we can and give them that value where they are that value where they are that value where they are so that they they lean in and take a so that they they lean in and take a so that they they lean in and take a next step yeah i would echo next step yeah i would echo next step yeah i would echo that to say that you know i i don't that to say that you know i i don't that to say that you know i i don't think the this this think the this this think the this this the strategy of bringing him into the the strategy of bringing him into the the strategy of bringing him into the room is still going to be there room is still going to be there room is still going to be there right it took a pause for a while here right it took a pause for a while here right it took a pause for a while here and we'll get back to that a little bit and we'll get back to that a little bit and we'll get back to that a little bit but to your point and something we but to your point and something we but to your point and something we should have been doing for years should have been doing for years should have been doing for years is we should be meeting them in their

is we should be meeting them in their is we should be meeting them in their space on their time space on their time space on their time with content that makes it's relevant to with content that makes it's relevant to with content that makes it's relevant to what they're they're dealing with what they're they're dealing with what they're they're dealing with right you just mentioned it like watch right you just mentioned it like watch right you just mentioned it like watch some videos of success stories on how some videos of success stories on how some videos of success stories on how this this this couple fix their marriage right which couple fix their marriage right which couple fix their marriage right which gives gives gives you hope that you can experience that you hope that you can experience that you hope that you can experience that and you didn't have to come to the room and you didn't have to come to the room and you didn't have to come to the room for that you could do it in your own for that you could do it in your own for that you could do it in your own living room living room living room and that's just a baby step discipleship and that's just a baby step discipleship and that's just a baby step discipleship starts right there starts right there starts right there and eventually if they want to they'll and eventually if they want to they'll and eventually if they want to they'll take those steps to come to take those steps to come to take those steps to come to our church right and engage but if we our church right and engage but if we our church right and engage but if we could just re could just re could just re reproduce that over and over and over reproduce that over and over and over reproduce that over and over and over again now it it's limitless on how many again now it it's limitless on how many again now it it's limitless on how many people we can reach people we can reach people we can reach on all these different felt needs so i i on all these different felt needs so i i on all these different felt needs so i i totally echo totally echo totally echo and appreciate what you said there the and appreciate what you said there the and appreciate what you said there the that we we can't just have this that we we can't just have this that we we can't just have this one-minded shift to go we got to get one-minded shift to go we got to get one-minded shift to go we got to get them in the room them in the room them in the room that's fine but we have to and you guys that's fine but we have to and you guys that's fine but we have to and you guys have pivoted well you got to go to them have pivoted well you got to go to them have pivoted well you got to go to them because that's what jesus did he didn't because that's what jesus did he didn't because that's what jesus did he didn't make people come to him he he went to make people come to him he he went to make people come to him he he went to he came down to earth to come to us yeah he came down to earth to come to us yeah he came down to earth to come to us yeah we have to take the same approach we have to take the same approach we have to take the same approach just like you said i mean we did not see just like you said i mean we did not see just like you said i mean we did not see jesus jesus jesus you know walking the streets meeting you know walking the streets meeting you know walking the streets meeting people and say people and say people and say hey great question person or i see that hey great question person or i see that hey great question person or i see that you need that healing you need that healing you need that healing hey can i give you this postcard to come hey can i give you this postcard to come hey can i give you this postcard to come to this gathering to this gathering to this gathering that we've got uh make sure no he met that we've got uh make sure no he met that we've got uh make sure no he met needs right there and then he gave them needs right there and then he gave them needs right there and then he gave them the next step the next step the next step he said go and send no more or go here he said go and send no more or go here he said go and send no more or go here like he gave them a next step so we're like he gave them a next step so we're like he gave them a next step so we're just following what just following what just following what jesus's model here but we just missed jesus's model here but we just missed jesus's model here but we just missed we got the gathering part we just missed we got the gathering part we just missed we got the gathering part we just missed the the first steps sometimes along the

the the first steps sometimes along the the the first steps sometimes along the way and that can be the most fun way and that can be the most fun way and that can be the most fun because then it puts it takes the burden because then it puts it takes the burden because then it puts it takes the burden off of us off of us off of us we're not tr our win is not that we got we're not tr our win is not that we got we're not tr our win is not that we got people inside a room because people inside a room because people inside a room because life transformation life transformation life transformation life transformation life transformation life transformation may or may not happen if they get in may or may not happen if they get in may or may not happen if they get in that room that room that room but what we can just do is be faithful but what we can just do is be faithful but what we can just do is be faithful in putting jesus on display and all in putting jesus on display and all in putting jesus on display and all those different those different those different avenues and then let jesus do what he avenues and then let jesus do what he avenues and then let jesus do what he said he's going to do and he said he's said he's going to do and he said he's said he's going to do and he said he's going to build the church going to build the church going to build the church so that's not on us but we just got to so that's not on us but we just got to so that's not on us but we just got to be faithful and all this other stuff be faithful and all this other stuff be faithful and all this other stuff hey phil who are the leaders hey phil who are the leaders hey phil who are the leaders that you're looking to and that you're that you're looking to and that you're that you're looking to and that you're learning from these days i i will learning from these days i i will learning from these days i i will i do want to point out that you know i do want to point out that you know i do want to point out that you know when i when i when i i discovered your your book i saw that i discovered your your book i saw that i discovered your your book i saw that tony morgan had written the forward so tony morgan had written the forward so tony morgan had written the forward so i'm like well this guy phil's i'm like well this guy phil's i'm like well this guy phil's in some good company and then when i in some good company and then when i in some good company and then when i went to amazon to buy it i saw went to amazon to buy it i saw went to amazon to buy it i saw an endorsement from john maxwell who an endorsement from john maxwell who an endorsement from john maxwell who said he read the book and i'm like okay said he read the book and i'm like okay said he read the book and i'm like okay like phil's in some good company here um like phil's in some good company here um like phil's in some good company here um so you got so you got so you got you know tony morgan and john maxwell you know tony morgan and john maxwell you know tony morgan and john maxwell who are phenomenal leaders and people who are phenomenal leaders and people who are phenomenal leaders and people that i'm learning from that i'm learning from that i'm learning from aside from those guys which i'm assuming aside from those guys which i'm assuming aside from those guys which i'm assuming i assume that you learn from those guys i assume that you learn from those guys i assume that you learn from those guys who are some other people that you're who are some other people that you're who are some other people that you're looking to and learning from that might looking to and learning from that might looking to and learning from that might be a benefit to us and to our listeners be a benefit to us and to our listeners be a benefit to us and to our listeners sure yeah i mean i'm leaders that sure yeah i mean i'm leaders that sure yeah i mean i'm leaders that authors that i really lean into just authors that i really lean into just authors that i really lean into just because i appreciate how they approach because i appreciate how they approach because i appreciate how they approach problems are problems are problems are seth godin adam grant malcolm gladwell i seth godin adam grant malcolm gladwell i seth godin adam grant malcolm gladwell i just i love just i love just i love their their work and i love their their their work and i love their their their work and i love their podcasts as well i'm a podcast junkie so podcasts as well i'm a podcast junkie so podcasts as well i'm a podcast junkie so um other podcasts in in the faith space

um other podcasts in in the faith space um other podcasts in in the faith space or or or leadership space too andy stanley carrie leadership space too andy stanley carrie leadership space too andy stanley carrie newhoff craig rochelle newhoff craig rochelle newhoff craig rochelle they're very practical and insightful on they're very practical and insightful on they're very practical and insightful on that um those are probably not that um those are probably not that um those are probably not new names for a lot of people but what i new names for a lot of people but what i new names for a lot of people but what i think i've been leaning into think i've been leaning into think i've been leaning into more in this season is i'm i'm more more in this season is i'm i'm more more in this season is i'm i'm more interested in leaning into the interested in leaning into the interested in leaning into the faithful leaders behind the scenes that faithful leaders behind the scenes that faithful leaders behind the scenes that that you may not know about that you may not know about that you may not know about you know that they're that they're just you know that they're that they're just you know that they're that they're just they don't have a twitter account they they don't have a twitter account they they don't have a twitter account they don't don't don't they don't have a blog or a book or they don't have a blog or a book or they don't have a blog or a book or anything like that they're just anything like that they're just anything like that they're just they're just being faithful with with they're just being faithful with with they're just being faithful with with their church of a hundred their church of a hundred their church of a hundred um or their their specific role that um or their their specific role that um or their their specific role that god's called them to god's called them to god's called them to so i have a friend mac lake who's just a so i have a friend mac lake who's just a so i have a friend mac lake who's just a leadership leadership leadership expert and i when i'm when i have a expert and i when i'm when i have a expert and i when i'm when i have a problem in problem in problem in in that area or just want to learn from in that area or just want to learn from in that area or just want to learn from him i'm i'm going to him him i'm i'm going to him him i'm i'm going to him you know tim foote who i work i also do you know tim foote who i work i also do you know tim foote who i work i also do some work with slingshot group some work with slingshot group some work with slingshot group um and so he is he is the most um and so he is he is the most um and so he is he is the most encouraging guy i've ever met encouraging guy i've ever met encouraging guy i've ever met like i just he's just oozes like i just he's just oozes like i just he's just oozes encouragement you feel better when you encouragement you feel better when you encouragement you feel better when you talk to that guy so talk to that guy so talk to that guy so i'm trying to ask him questions and i'm trying to ask him questions and i'm trying to ask him questions and learn from him and especially in that learn from him and especially in that learn from him and especially in that area area area um to lean into that and there's there's um to lean into that and there's there's um to lean into that and there's there's just just just volunteers that are on our our our team volunteers that are on our our our team volunteers that are on our our our team or our staff that have a unique gift or our staff that have a unique gift or our staff that have a unique gift that i can learn from so i think that i can learn from so i think that i can learn from so i think sometimes we overthink it sometimes we overthink it sometimes we overthink it like there's great there's great leaders like there's great there's great leaders like there's great there's great leaders out there but there's great leaders that out there but there's great leaders that out there but there's great leaders that um that are just faithful behind the um that are just faithful behind the um that are just faithful behind the scenes that nobody knows about that scenes that nobody knows about that scenes that nobody knows about that that i'm learning from every day well said yeah i i i think we uh well said yeah i i i think we uh yeah it's we're rubbing shoulders with

yeah it's we're rubbing shoulders with yeah it's we're rubbing shoulders with people and we maybe take that for people and we maybe take that for people and we maybe take that for granted a little bit granted a little bit granted a little bit and you recognize wait a minute you and you recognize wait a minute you and you recognize wait a minute you really are pouring into my life really are pouring into my life really are pouring into my life and it doesn't it's not always like hey and it doesn't it's not always like hey and it doesn't it's not always like hey you just gave me five nuggets to chew on you just gave me five nuggets to chew on you just gave me five nuggets to chew on that i'm gonna that i'm gonna that i'm gonna improve my leadership it's more about improve my leadership it's more about improve my leadership it's more about just through life you're going just through life you're going just through life you're going wait what's god telling me in this wait what's god telling me in this wait what's god telling me in this moment right now moment right now moment right now i find that happening all the time i find that happening all the time i find that happening all the time because i'm the same way you know you because i'm the same way you know you because i'm the same way you know you surround yourself with people that surround yourself with people that surround yourself with people that you just like to be around and you find you just like to be around and you find you just like to be around and you find that god does some amazing that god does some amazing that god does some amazing things through those relationships and things through those relationships and things through those relationships and so i mean so i mean so i mean especially in the last you know couple especially in the last you know couple especially in the last you know couple years i mean years i mean years i mean the the interesting thing that i see the the interesting thing that i see the the interesting thing that i see from the generation from the generation from the generation older than me um is that they had some older than me um is that they had some older than me um is that they had some incredible incredible incredible giants of the faith that they could look giants of the faith that they could look giants of the faith that they could look to and count on to and count on to and count on um that they they could model their um that they they could model their um that they they could model their lives around and be in lives around and be in lives around and be in in good shape um my generation has had a in good shape um my generation has had a in good shape um my generation has had a lot of people that lot of people that lot of people that look that way but have let us down like look that way but have let us down like look that way but have let us down like that they've had fail and we've all that they've had fail and we've all that they've had fail and we've all none of us are beyond failure on that i none of us are beyond failure on that i none of us are beyond failure on that i don't mean that at all but don't mean that at all but don't mean that at all but um but platform and um follower um but platform and um follower um but platform and um follower counts don't necessarily mean the counts don't necessarily mean the counts don't necessarily mean the greatest influence either greatest influence either greatest influence either because that that can just it get that because that that can just it get that because that that can just it get that can let us down so can let us down so can let us down so i i just think we've we've got to look i i just think we've we've got to look i i just think we've we've got to look in other places sometimes and especially in other places sometimes and especially in other places sometimes and especially like i said leading into things that like i said leading into things that like i said leading into things that find a trait or find somebody that's find a trait or find somebody that's find a trait or find somebody that's great even at one thing and just great even at one thing and just great even at one thing and just ask them questions spend time with them ask them questions spend time with them ask them questions spend time with them learn from them that's where it's at learn from them that's where it's at learn from them that's where it's at yeah you're describing inadvertently uh yeah you're describing inadvertently uh yeah you're describing inadvertently uh you're you're describing jason hamrock you're you're describing jason hamrock you're you're describing jason hamrock you know he's a guy who hasn't written a you know he's a guy who hasn't written a you know he's a guy who hasn't written a book i don't think you have a twitter

book i don't think you have a twitter book i don't think you have a twitter account do you account do you account do you but but someone that i've learned a ton but but someone that i've learned a ton but but someone that i've learned a ton from and i think a lot of the leaders from and i think a lot of the leaders from and i think a lot of the leaders and a lot of church and a lot of church and a lot of church communications professionals and pastors communications professionals and pastors communications professionals and pastors and executive pastors that jason gets to and executive pastors that jason gets to and executive pastors that jason gets to spend time with spend time with spend time with i'm just i'm tooting your horn here for i'm just i'm tooting your horn here for i'm just i'm tooting your horn here for you jason so you don't have to you jason so you don't have to you jason so you don't have to um not that you would see that's another um not that you would see that's another um not that you would see that's another reason that you're another reason you're reason that you're another reason you're reason that you're another reason you're you're a good leader is that you you you're a good leader is that you you you're a good leader is that you you wouldn't do that so uh wouldn't do that so uh wouldn't do that so uh yeah it's it's cool you're absolutely yeah it's it's cool you're absolutely yeah it's it's cool you're absolutely right phil there's right phil there's right phil there's there's something there is something there's something there is something there's something there is something very um we do live in a culture of the cult of we do live in a culture of the cult of personality right uh where personality right uh where personality right uh where you know we do tend to look to people you know we do tend to look to people you know we do tend to look to people who have large platforms who have large platforms who have large platforms and they oftentimes have very valuable and they oftentimes have very valuable and they oftentimes have very valuable and insightful things to say and insightful things to say and insightful things to say and you know and i'm i'm one of those and you know and i'm i'm one of those and you know and i'm i'm one of those people i like you i i listen to a lot of people i like you i i listen to a lot of people i like you i i listen to a lot of podcasts it sounds like you and i podcasts it sounds like you and i podcasts it sounds like you and i probably listen to a lot of the the same probably listen to a lot of the the same probably listen to a lot of the the same a lot of the same podcasts a lot of the same podcasts a lot of the same podcasts uh but there is a danger in you know uh but there is a danger in you know uh but there is a danger in you know hitching your hitching your hitching your wagon or putting all of your all of your wagon or putting all of your all of your wagon or putting all of your all of your eggs into eggs into eggs into some of those those baskets because some of those those baskets because some of those those baskets because people are people and they do people are people and they do people are people and they do fail and they do fall and and uh we just fail and they do fall and and uh we just fail and they do fall and and uh we just need to keep our anchor and need to keep our anchor and need to keep our anchor and jesus christ the king he's the one he's jesus christ the king he's the one he's jesus christ the king he's the one he's the one and uh the one and uh the one and uh i don't know how we kind of delved into i don't know how we kind of delved into i don't know how we kind of delved into this i listen to his podcast all the this i listen to his podcast all the this i listen to his podcast all the time time time you listen to his podcast yeah i do too you listen to his podcast yeah i do too you listen to his podcast yeah i do too yeah i spend i spent some time every yeah i spend i spent some time every yeah i spend i spent some time every morning morning morning some weird guy if i you know use the some weird guy if i you know use the some weird guy if i you know use the bible app and you got some strange guys bible app and you got some strange guys bible app and you got some strange guys you know reading it to me in the bible you know reading it to me in the bible you know reading it to me in the bible app i i don't think that's what jesus app i i don't think that's what jesus app i i don't think that's what jesus sounds like but anyway hey um sounds like but anyway hey um sounds like but anyway hey um let's wrap up here phil we really really

let's wrap up here phil we really really let's wrap up here phil we really really appreciate your time this has been uh appreciate your time this has been uh appreciate your time this has been uh really really really really great to get to know you and a really great to get to know you and a really great to get to know you and a little bit more about um little bit more about um little bit more about um about your ministry um i think that your about your ministry um i think that your about your ministry um i think that your book is uh really an excellent tool for book is uh really an excellent tool for book is uh really an excellent tool for uh for communications professionals for uh for communications professionals for uh for communications professionals for pastors for people who are trying to pastors for people who are trying to pastors for people who are trying to figure out figure out figure out how to really streamline their processes how to really streamline their processes how to really streamline their processes and and be more effective in their and and be more effective in their and and be more effective in their communication communication communication at the end of the day you know we have a at the end of the day you know we have a at the end of the day you know we have a message that we need to communicate i message that we need to communicate i message that we need to communicate i think one of the things that you you hit think one of the things that you you hit think one of the things that you you hit on the book is that we don't have a on the book is that we don't have a on the book is that we don't have a problem with our message problem with our message problem with our message we have a problem with our delivery we have a problem with our delivery we have a problem with our delivery mechanism i don't know if that's exactly mechanism i don't know if that's exactly mechanism i don't know if that's exactly the way you phrase it but the way you phrase it but the way you phrase it but those are kind of kind of the words that those are kind of kind of the words that those are kind of kind of the words that you use close enough you know it's not you use close enough you know it's not you use close enough you know it's not it's not the message it's the delivery it's not the message it's the delivery it's not the message it's the delivery of the message and we need to get better of the message and we need to get better of the message and we need to get better at that so appreciate the work that at that so appreciate the work that at that so appreciate the work that you've put into you've put into you've put into um not only doing it at westridge but um not only doing it at westridge but um not only doing it at westridge but also you know making your also you know making your also you know making your experiences and and uh your insights experiences and and uh your insights experiences and and uh your insights available to other people available to other people available to other people if people would like to get a copy of if people would like to get a copy of if people would like to get a copy of the book find out more about you the book find out more about you the book find out more about you what are the what are the best ways for what are the what are the best ways for what are the what are the best ways for them to connect with you to track with them to connect with you to track with them to connect with you to track with you or to get the book you or to get the book you or to get the book sure yeah you can go to sure yeah you can go to sure yeah you can go to rethinkcommunicationbook.com rethinkcommunicationbook.com rethinkcommunicationbook.com search my name or in amazon that's where search my name or in amazon that's where search my name or in amazon that's where most people most people most people are grabbing the book um on there but are grabbing the book um on there but are grabbing the book um on there but there's links for all all the different there's links for all all the different there's links for all all the different places you can find it places you can find it places you can find it um or to get bulk copies for your team um or to get bulk copies for your team um or to get bulk copies for your team if you're walking through if you're walking through if you're walking through um the book with your team we tried to um the book with your team we tried to um the book with your team we tried to make that really competitive with the make that really competitive with the make that really competitive with the publisher to be able to make that a good publisher to be able to make that a good publisher to be able to make that a good option for your team so option for your team so option for your team so feel free to check that out also you can feel free to check that out also you can feel free to check that out also you can text me 678-653-2047 text me 678-653-2047 text me 678-653-2047 if you have a question if i can pray for if you have a question if i can pray for if you have a question if i can pray for you if there's anything i can do to have you if there's anything i can do to have you if there's anything i can do to have your back your back your back um feel free to reach out there

um feel free to reach out there um feel free to reach out there 678-653-2047 678-653-2047 678-653-2047 i'll leave it in the end of the book as i'll leave it in the end of the book as i'll leave it in the end of the book as well too and i've had some really fun well too and i've had some really fun well too and i've had some really fun that's that's that's how john maxwell called me um so i'm how john maxwell called me um so i'm how john maxwell called me um so i'm like worth it just for that you know so like worth it just for that you know so like worth it just for that you know so i'll take it but feel free to reach out i'll take it but feel free to reach out i'll take it but feel free to reach out i've had some really fun conversations i've had some really fun conversations i've had some really fun conversations with with with with people from uh churches all over with people from uh churches all over with people from uh churches all over the place from that so the place from that so the place from that so love being able to connect with anybody love being able to connect with anybody love being able to connect with anybody and then you can also email me phil and then you can also email me phil and then you can also email me phil philbottle.com awesome phil philbottle.com awesome phil philbottle.com awesome phil may i really appreciate your time uh but may i really appreciate your time uh but may i really appreciate your time uh but i also really appreciate god using you i also really appreciate god using you i also really appreciate god using you to further his kingdom so thanks for uh to further his kingdom so thanks for uh to further his kingdom so thanks for uh answering his call answering his call answering his call um i i kind of laugh because i'm like um i i kind of laugh because i'm like um i i kind of laugh because i'm like yeah god has a sense of humor because i yeah god has a sense of humor because i yeah god has a sense of humor because i didn't find myself didn't find myself didn't find myself wanting to work for a church you know i wanting to work for a church you know i wanting to work for a church you know i wasn't a a preacher's kid but wasn't a a preacher's kid but wasn't a a preacher's kid but i just i grew up in the church i never i just i grew up in the church i never i just i grew up in the church i never thought i'd work for a church but you thought i'd work for a church but you thought i'd work for a church but you know sense of humor god goes no no i'm know sense of humor god goes no no i'm know sense of humor god goes no no i'm going to do this to you and going to do this to you and going to do this to you and and change your life and it's been and change your life and it's been and change your life and it's been awesome ever since so i appreciate your awesome ever since so i appreciate your awesome ever since so i appreciate your your story and and your story and and your story and and thanks for for your leadership oh i thanks for for your leadership oh i thanks for for your leadership oh i appreciate it and thanks for all that appreciate it and thanks for all that appreciate it and thanks for all that you guys are doing i mean churches need you guys are doing i mean churches need you guys are doing i mean churches need um leaders like you podcasts like this um leaders like you podcasts like this um leaders like you podcasts like this and uh and people that are just here to and uh and people that are just here to and uh and people that are just here to help help help help the church so honored to be with help the church so honored to be with help the church so honored to be with you guys today thanks buddy thanks phil you guys today thanks buddy thanks phil you guys today thanks buddy thanks phil talk to you soon