Encouragement for Small Church Pastors Who Feel Like They Have Failed | Dale Sellers at 95Network

[Music] [Music] welcome to the church growth podcast welcome to the church growth podcast welcome to the church growth podcast my name is jason hamrock i am your host my name is jason hamrock i am your host my name is jason hamrock i am your host today today today and i have dale sellers on the podcast and i have dale sellers on the podcast and i have dale sellers on the podcast dale is the executive director of the 95 dale is the executive director of the 95 dale is the executive director of the 95 network now this is a really cool network now this is a really cool network now this is a really cool organization organization organization the 95 network serves churches that are the 95 network serves churches that are the 95 network serves churches that are in 500 attendance and below which means in 500 attendance and below which means in 500 attendance and below which means they actually serve 95 of the churches they actually serve 95 of the churches they actually serve 95 of the churches in america because 95 in america because 95 in america because 95 of the churches in america have an of the churches in america have an of the churches in america have an attendance of 500 or less attendance of 500 or less attendance of 500 or less this is a great organization and i'm this is a great organization and i'm this is a great organization and i'm excited for excited for excited for uh for you to hear from dale but if uh for you to hear from dale but if uh for you to hear from dale but if you're a church that's over 500 you're a church that's over 500 you're a church that's over 500 you're going to gain some wisdom as well you're going to gain some wisdom as well you're going to gain some wisdom as well especially if you've been especially if you've been especially if you've been in this season and have just kind of in this season and have just kind of in this season and have just kind of felt stuck felt stuck felt stuck or stalled dale wrote a book recently or stalled dale wrote a book recently or stalled dale wrote a book recently called stalled and he called stalled and he called stalled and he speaks about that in our podcast today speaks about that in our podcast today speaks about that in our podcast today well hey dale uh glad to have on the well hey dale uh glad to have on the well hey dale uh glad to have on the pack podcast how you doing today pack podcast how you doing today pack podcast how you doing today man i'm having a time of my life awesome man i'm having a time of my life awesome man i'm having a time of my life awesome beginning a new year off and we're just beginning a new year off and we're just beginning a new year off and we're just hitting the ground running yeah good to hitting the ground running yeah good to hitting the ground running yeah good to connect thanks for being here yeah man connect thanks for being here yeah man connect thanks for being here yeah man so share a little bit about your so share a little bit about your so share a little bit about your ministry experience and ministry experience and ministry experience and and how you ended up serving with 95 and how you ended up serving with 95 and how you ended up serving with 95 network well that's a loaded question network well that's a loaded question network well that's a loaded question yeah so i've been i'm 58 uh at the time yeah so i've been i'm 58 uh at the time yeah so i've been i'm 58 uh at the time we recorded this i've been in ministry we recorded this i've been in ministry we recorded this i've been in ministry for almost 40 years for almost 40 years for almost 40 years um my wife and i met at uh basically the um my wife and i met at uh basically the um my wife and i met at uh basically the christian college we traveled with their christian college we traveled with their christian college we traveled with their christian with their music group christian with their music group christian with their music group that we went out of the admissions

that we went out of the admissions that we went out of the admissions department we would go into churches department we would go into churches department we would go into churches and you know it would they would do and you know it would they would do and you know it would they would do concerts and then we tell about the concerts and then we tell about the concerts and then we tell about the college college college and so we did that this is back in the and so we did that this is back in the and so we did that this is back in the 80s before you were born this is back in 80s before you were born this is back in 80s before you were born this is back in the time when christian mu i mean there the time when christian mu i mean there the time when christian mu i mean there was just groups everywhere it was it was was just groups everywhere it was it was was just groups everywhere it was it was a huge thing a huge thing a huge thing uh and we did that for about three years uh and we did that for about three years uh and we did that for about three years and then we started our own ministry and then we started our own ministry and then we started our own ministry our own music group and so the first 10 our own music group and so the first 10 our own music group and so the first 10 years we were married we did about 1100 years we were married we did about 1100 years we were married we did about 1100 concerts concerts concerts in churches in over 30 states in churches in over 30 states in churches in over 30 states and i just love that i really thought and i just love that i really thought and i just love that i really thought that's what we would do the rest of our that's what we would do the rest of our that's what we would do the rest of our life because i life because i life because i love the church i was saved when i was love the church i was saved when i was love the church i was saved when i was seven years old seven years old seven years old um it was just an incredible experience um it was just an incredible experience um it was just an incredible experience that just that just that just it was just like it's been the whole it was just like it's been the whole it was just like it's been the whole podcast talking about it but i won't podcast talking about it but i won't podcast talking about it but i won't but i've always loved the church and so but i've always loved the church and so but i've always loved the church and so as we did these this group traveled in as we did these this group traveled in as we did these this group traveled in our 20s and in our 30s our 20s and in our 30s our 20s and in our 30s we would we would come in contact with we would we would come in contact with we would we would come in contact with all these pastors and we would they were all these pastors and we would they were all these pastors and we would they were always discouraged always discouraged always discouraged and i'm like i don't understand because and i'm like i don't understand because and i'm like i don't understand because i'm a 20 year old kid and i'm a high i'm a 20 year old kid and i'm a high i'm a 20 year old kid and i'm a high energy and energy and energy and you know the glass is always totally you know the glass is always totally you know the glass is always totally full to me full to me full to me but anyway i'm like what's what's but anyway i'm like what's what's but anyway i'm like what's what's happening here with these pastors happening here with these pastors happening here with these pastors why are they so discouraged where's why are they so discouraged where's why are they so discouraged where's their fire where's their passion you their fire where's their passion you their fire where's their passion you know all that kind of stuff know all that kind of stuff know all that kind of stuff but when you're in a music group you but when you're in a music group you but when you're in a music group you blow in blow up and blow out i mean blow in blow up and blow out i mean blow in blow up and blow out i mean you're not you're not you're not there so when i came off the road there so when i came off the road there so when i came off the road started working in a local church it started working in a local church it started working in a local church it took me about two weeks to figure out took me about two weeks to figure out took me about two weeks to figure out what had happened to all these pastors what had happened to all these pastors what had happened to all these pastors they were they were pastoring people they were they were pastoring people they were they were pastoring people and people would just wear you out uh and people would just wear you out uh and people would just wear you out uh and so even then i began to get a deep and so even then i began to get a deep and so even then i began to get a deep seated love for the church and for the seated love for the church and for the seated love for the church and for the pastors a few years later pastors a few years later pastors a few years later uh i pastored a small church that grew

uh i pastored a small church that grew uh i pastored a small church that grew from 30 from 30 from 30 to 300 back to 150 because we had a to 300 back to 150 because we had a to 300 back to 150 because we had a terrible split terrible split terrible split but simultaneously i also was working at but simultaneously i also was working at but simultaneously i also was working at a very large christian radio station a very large christian radio station a very large christian radio station doing events and things like that and doing events and things like that and doing events and things like that and and again i begin to work with all these and again i begin to work with all these and again i begin to work with all these churches churches churches so it's just been a part of my life uh so it's just been a part of my life uh so it's just been a part of my life uh in the year 2000 in the year 2000 in the year 2000 i had the opportunity to go to work for i had the opportunity to go to work for i had the opportunity to go to work for john maxwell um and which was my dream john maxwell um and which was my dream john maxwell um and which was my dream job you know i kind of i mean i had i job you know i kind of i mean i had i job you know i kind of i mean i had i just had him just had him just had him on such a pedestal it wasn't god's on such a pedestal it wasn't god's on such a pedestal it wasn't god's timing so i did not take that job and so timing so i did not take that job and so timing so i did not take that job and so i thought i thought i thought what i'm doing today that this ship had what i'm doing today that this ship had what i'm doing today that this ship had kind of sailed kind of sailed kind of sailed and that i would spend the rest of my and that i would spend the rest of my and that i would spend the rest of my life kind of serving either as a life kind of serving either as a life kind of serving either as a i've been an executive pastor actually i've been an executive pastor actually i've been an executive pastor actually i've served in every capacity on a i've served in every capacity on a i've served in every capacity on a church staff except for minister of church staff except for minister of church staff except for minister of music music music which is odd because i had a music group which is odd because i had a music group which is odd because i had a music group but anyway i just thought that ship had but anyway i just thought that ship had but anyway i just thought that ship had sailed sailed sailed um and then a few years ago in uh in um and then a few years ago in uh in um and then a few years ago in uh in february of 2014 one more in the shower february of 2014 one more in the shower february of 2014 one more in the shower the lord just spoke to me and said it's the lord just spoke to me and said it's the lord just spoke to me and said it's time to launch your leadership ministry time to launch your leadership ministry time to launch your leadership ministry i'm like you're kidding me i know i'm i'm like you're kidding me i know i'm i'm like you're kidding me i know i'm out of the it's been 14 years out of the it's been 14 years out of the it's been 14 years i'm out of the loop i don't know what's i'm out of the loop i don't know what's i'm out of the loop i don't know what's going on he goes yeah i got you right going on he goes yeah i got you right going on he goes yeah i got you right where i want you where i want you where i want you and so uh i just went out and started a and so uh i just went out and started a and so uh i just went out and started a ministry called dale ministry called dale ministry called dale sellers leadership how about that one sellers leadership how about that one sellers leadership how about that one huh and uh and then things have just huh and uh and then things have just huh and uh and then things have just evolved from there i was trained in a evolved from there i was trained in a evolved from there i was trained in a process called stratop process called stratop process called stratop to help churches do strategic and to help churches do strategic and to help churches do strategic and operational planning and then operational planning and then operational planning and then i worked for a couple of years with the i worked for a couple of years with the i worked for a couple of years with the unstuck group uh doing uh specifically unstuck group uh doing uh specifically unstuck group uh doing uh specifically focusing on small churches through focusing on small churches through focusing on small churches through unstuck and tony unstuck and tony unstuck and tony morgan and then uh met a guy named jim morgan and then uh met a guy named jim morgan and then uh met a guy named jim powell who uh powell who uh powell who uh who pastored used to pastor rich woods who pastored used to pastor rich woods who pastored used to pastor rich woods christian church in peoria illinois christian church in peoria illinois christian church in peoria illinois and he had founded a new non-profit

and he had founded a new non-profit and he had founded a new non-profit called the 95 network called the 95 network called the 95 network the name comes from the fact that of the the name comes from the fact that of the the name comes from the fact that of the 300 000 churches in america 300 000 churches in america 300 000 churches in america 95 have less than 500 people attending 95 have less than 500 people attending 95 have less than 500 people attending 87 percent have less than 200 people 87 percent have less than 200 people 87 percent have less than 200 people attending and about 70 attending and about 70 attending and about 70 of all the churches in america have less of all the churches in america have less of all the churches in america have less than 100 people attending than 100 people attending than 100 people attending and so what i knew to be true was all and so what i knew to be true was all and so what i knew to be true was all the great resources that exist the great resources that exist the great resources that exist uh the great you know the the the the uh the great you know the the the the uh the great you know the the the the consultants the programs consultants the programs consultants the programs it's always out of reach for the small it's always out of reach for the small it's always out of reach for the small church guy yeah you know when i pastored church guy yeah you know when i pastored church guy yeah you know when i pastored a small church a small church a small church i couldn't i couldn't hire a consultant i couldn't i couldn't hire a consultant i couldn't i couldn't hire a consultant and bring them in we were trying to pay and bring them in we were trying to pay and bring them in we were trying to pay the bills you know the bills you know the bills you know uh and so i so i'm like i thank god for uh and so i so i'm like i thank god for uh and so i so i'm like i thank god for 95 network because it's a non-profit 95 network because it's a non-profit 95 network because it's a non-profit and it provides all these resources to and it provides all these resources to and it provides all these resources to help churches and so help churches and so help churches and so jim asked me to join the board and then jim asked me to join the board and then jim asked me to join the board and then a couple years later he felt like god a couple years later he felt like god a couple years later he felt like god had called him to step had called him to step had called him to step down and he turned it over to me and down and he turned it over to me and down and he turned it over to me and some other pastors and then some other pastors and then some other pastors and then in july it would be three years this in july it would be three years this in july it would be three years this coming july two and a half years ago i coming july two and a half years ago i coming july two and a half years ago i became executive director became executive director became executive director and we literally work with thousands of and we literally work with thousands of and we literally work with thousands of churches now churches now churches now all across america and the cool thing is all across america and the cool thing is all across america and the cool thing is we're working in just about every we're working in just about every we're working in just about every denomination you can think of denomination you can think of denomination you can think of um because we love the local church we um because we love the local church we um because we love the local church we you know and you know and you know and as as i was saying to you before we come as as i was saying to you before we come as as i was saying to you before we come on uh this is it man this is on uh this is it man this is on uh this is it man this is it this is there's no plan b the church it this is there's no plan b the church it this is there's no plan b the church is it you know is it you know is it you know this is what jesus left us and so uh our this is what jesus left us and so uh our this is what jesus left us and so uh our job job job our our vision at mount at uh 95 network our our vision at mount at uh 95 network our our vision at mount at uh 95 network is that we want to is that we want to is that we want to to connect small and mid-sized churches to connect small and mid-sized churches to connect small and mid-sized churches with big resources with big resources with big resources and you'll love our vision and our and you'll love our vision and our and you'll love our vision and our vision is to bring healthy change to vision is to bring healthy change to vision is to bring healthy change to every church in america every church in america every church in america that's a big vision yeah it's a huge

that's a big vision yeah it's a huge that's a big vision yeah it's a huge vision and we're going to live through vision and we're going to live through vision and we're going to live through partnerships with people just like you partnerships with people just like you partnerships with people just like you you know we're all working together you know we're all working together you know we're all working together to help the church so that's the that's to help the church so that's the that's to help the church so that's the that's the five-minute overview the five-minute overview the five-minute overview yeah yeah so you mentioned a little bit yeah yeah so you mentioned a little bit yeah yeah so you mentioned a little bit about what 95 network does and about what 95 network does and about what 95 network does and and i love i love the vision i love that and i love i love the vision i love that and i love i love the vision i love that idea of we want to help idea of we want to help idea of we want to help impact every single church so uh give us impact every single church so uh give us impact every single church so uh give us a little bit of breakdown a little bit of breakdown a little bit of breakdown as to how you actually help as to how you actually help as to how you actually help uh the church the 95 you know the 95 of uh the church the 95 you know the 95 of uh the church the 95 you know the 95 of churches that are under 500. churches that are under 500. churches that are under 500. we call them the five c's that's what we we call them the five c's that's what we we call them the five c's that's what we have the first one have the first one have the first one is content so we do we have a membership is content so we do we have a membership is content so we do we have a membership where you can join 95 network where you can join 95 network where you can join 95 network costs 95 a year so that's not too bad costs 95 a year so that's not too bad costs 95 a year so that's not too bad yeah that's that's not too expensive and yeah that's that's not too expensive and yeah that's that's not too expensive and so uh and inside so uh and inside so uh and inside uh inside our membership we created a uh inside our membership we created a uh inside our membership we created a content portal content portal content portal and we have provided just incredible and we have provided just incredible and we have provided just incredible amounts of amounts of amounts of practical things that pastors can use to practical things that pastors can use to practical things that pastors can use to help grow their church most pastors help grow their church most pastors help grow their church most pastors were trained on how to preach they were were trained on how to preach they were were trained on how to preach they were trained on how to do weddings and trained on how to do weddings and trained on how to do weddings and funerals but they weren't trained how to funerals but they weren't trained how to funerals but they weren't trained how to lead lead lead right and and so basically you know i right and and so basically you know i right and and so basically you know i heard john maxwell say this 20 years ago heard john maxwell say this 20 years ago heard john maxwell say this 20 years ago you know the thing that we need to do you know the thing that we need to do you know the thing that we need to do the most the most the most nobody told us how to do it and so uh so nobody told us how to do it and so uh so nobody told us how to do it and so uh so we we we we provide content the second thing we we provide content the second thing we we provide content the second thing we do is we do conferences uh even in the do is we do conferences uh even in the do is we do conferences uh even in the covet era covet era covet era we've we've switched a lot of those we've we've switched a lot of those we've we've switched a lot of those conferences to being online conferences to being online conferences to being online but we typically do 15 to 20 conferences but we typically do 15 to 20 conferences but we typically do 15 to 20 conferences a year a year a year where we're out and our vision for the where we're out and our vision for the where we're out and our vision for the conferences is this conferences is this conferences is this you know if you've been out to a large you know if you've been out to a large you know if you've been out to a large church conference

church conference church conference and you're a small church pastor you and you're a small church pastor you and you're a small church pastor you walk there and when you leave from that walk there and when you leave from that walk there and when you leave from that conference you might be fired up but you conference you might be fired up but you conference you might be fired up but you walk away and you think one of two walk away and you think one of two walk away and you think one of two things things things you look at what they did you know we you look at what they did you know we you look at what they did you know we could never do that at our church you could never do that at our church you could never do that at our church you know know know you know you see all the lights and the you know you see all the lights and the you know you see all the lights and the in the haze which it's not smoke it's in the haze which it's not smoke it's in the haze which it's not smoke it's haze haze haze and all that stuff in the bands and and and all that stuff in the bands and and and all that stuff in the bands and and you go you know you go you know you go you know so you leave defeated or worse you go so you leave defeated or worse you go so you leave defeated or worse you go back and try to do that back and try to do that back and try to do that and you lose your job in two weeks and you lose your job in two weeks and you lose your job in two weeks because they say you tried to set the because they say you tried to set the because they say you tried to set the church on fire you've got smoking church on fire you've got smoking church on fire you've got smoking you know and so so most most of the you know and so so most most of the you know and so so most most of the conferences conferences conferences really leave a small church pastor really leave a small church pastor really leave a small church pastor leaving more discouraged than encouraged leaving more discouraged than encouraged leaving more discouraged than encouraged so we create a one-day conference we so we create a one-day conference we so we create a one-day conference we teach we teach around five teach we teach around five teach we teach around five uh growth actions we talk about mission uh growth actions we talk about mission uh growth actions we talk about mission and vision that's our first session and vision that's our first session and vision that's our first session the second one is about leadership the second one is about leadership the second one is about leadership development the third one is how to have development the third one is how to have development the third one is how to have a clear discipleship pathway or next a clear discipleship pathway or next a clear discipleship pathway or next steps pathway steps pathway steps pathway versus programs the the the fourth thing versus programs the the the fourth thing versus programs the the the fourth thing is about how to help good communication is about how to help good communication is about how to help good communication both inward and outward both inward and outward both inward and outward and we wrap the day up by talking about and we wrap the day up by talking about and we wrap the day up by talking about uh how to create a healthy volunteer uh how to create a healthy volunteer uh how to create a healthy volunteer culture culture culture we do it and we like to do it in a room we do it and we like to do it in a room we do it and we like to do it in a room without any kind of without any kind of without any kind of you know fancy lighting we just we want you know fancy lighting we just we want you know fancy lighting we just we want to be if we can in fellowship hall to be if we can in fellowship hall to be if we can in fellowship hall around round tables yeah we we teach for around round tables yeah we we teach for around round tables yeah we we teach for 40 minutes and then we allow 20 minutes 40 minutes and then we allow 20 minutes 40 minutes and then we allow 20 minutes for the pastors to answer questions for the pastors to answer questions for the pastors to answer questions together together together that we've provided just about how that we've provided just about how that we've provided just about how they're doing with these things they're doing with these things they're doing with these things in it the whole day is designed to in it the whole day is designed to in it the whole day is designed to encourage and strengthen the pastor encourage and strengthen the pastor encourage and strengthen the pastor only charge 35 for it and and only charge 35 for it and and only charge 35 for it and and we don't charge the host church anything we don't charge the host church anything we don't charge the host church anything so it's you know so it's you know so it's you know it's it we can't get any more affordable it's it we can't get any more affordable it's it we can't get any more affordable than that right so we do that but we've

than that right so we do that but we've than that right so we do that but we've also been doing some virtually because also been doing some virtually because also been doing some virtually because of of of how things have changed so that's the how things have changed so that's the how things have changed so that's the conferences the next thing we do is conferences the next thing we do is conferences the next thing we do is coaching coaching coaching we've got an entire division uh within we've got an entire division uh within we've got an entire division uh within 95 network that we can provide 95 network that we can provide 95 network that we can provide coaching either just a one-time call coaching either just a one-time call coaching either just a one-time call like with me like with me like with me or we we've got uh you can do a or we we've got uh you can do a or we we've got uh you can do a six-month coaching a year coaching six-month coaching a year coaching six-month coaching a year coaching we've got a very specific coaching plan we've got a very specific coaching plan we've got a very specific coaching plan that we've developed to our that we've developed to our that we've developed to our one of our one of our staff guys named one of our one of our staff guys named one of our one of our staff guys named chad hunt chad hunt chad hunt and then we do consulting uh and we do and then we do consulting uh and we do and then we do consulting uh and we do that either by partnering with people that either by partnering with people that either by partnering with people like the unstuck group or the malfords like the unstuck group or the malfords like the unstuck group or the malfords group group group we also at 95 network do a thing called we also at 95 network do a thing called we also at 95 network do a thing called vision day vision day vision day where i'll come in and let's just say where i'll come in and let's just say where i'll come in and let's just say you're pastoring a church of 100 people you're pastoring a church of 100 people you're pastoring a church of 100 people we'll come in on a saturday and we'll we'll come in on a saturday and we'll we'll come in on a saturday and we'll spend the from about nine in the morning spend the from about nine in the morning spend the from about nine in the morning till four in the afternoon till four in the afternoon till four in the afternoon and we will just uh work through the and we will just uh work through the and we will just uh work through the individual issues of your church individual issues of your church individual issues of your church again i was trained in stratapt and i've again i was trained in stratapt and i've again i was trained in stratapt and i've worked with the unstuck group worked with the unstuck group worked with the unstuck group and those processes are so good they're and those processes are so good they're and those processes are so good they're so thorough they're so detailed so thorough they're so detailed so thorough they're so detailed but what i discovered was a lot of but what i discovered was a lot of but what i discovered was a lot of churches who've never been through churches who've never been through churches who've never been through anything like that just get overwhelmed anything like that just get overwhelmed anything like that just get overwhelmed and so i created a process that's and so i created a process that's and so i created a process that's basically we talk about your history uh basically we talk about your history uh basically we talk about your history uh who you're trying to reach who you're trying to reach who you're trying to reach what what their values are your mission what what their values are your mission what what their values are your mission your vision your vision your vision uh we talk a little bit about what are uh we talk a little bit about what are uh we talk a little bit about what are you doing currently this this sustaining you doing currently this this sustaining you doing currently this this sustaining growth growth growth and we pick one action item that you're and we pick one action item that you're and we pick one action item that you're going to focus on for the next 12 to 18 going to focus on for the next 12 to 18 going to focus on for the next 12 to 18 months months months to help your church grow because here's to help your church grow because here's to help your church grow because here's what happens in the small church what happens in the small church what happens in the small church the small church tends to do 20 things the small church tends to do 20 things the small church tends to do 20 things poorly poorly poorly instead of doing one or two things instead of doing one or two things instead of doing one or two things really well because it feels like really well because it feels like really well because it feels like well hey there's a church down the well hey there's a church down the well hey there's a church down the street it's got 600 people in it we need

street it's got 600 people in it we need street it's got 600 people in it we need to offer the same things they offer well to offer the same things they offer well to offer the same things they offer well you can't you can't you can't you don't have the resources the people you don't have the resources the people you don't have the resources the people the space the space the space and so we really help the church just to and so we really help the church just to and so we really help the church just to focus in and then my hope is is that focus in and then my hope is is that focus in and then my hope is is that once they've done a vision day once they've done a vision day once they've done a vision day the next time it's that rolls back the next time it's that rolls back the next time it's that rolls back around then they could bring in around then they could bring in around then they could bring in unstuck or bring in the my first group unstuck or bring in the my first group unstuck or bring in the my first group or someone like that to or someone like that to or someone like that to really even double down even more with really even double down even more with really even double down even more with you know so so we do that you know so so we do that you know so so we do that and then the biggest thing we do now is and then the biggest thing we do now is and then the biggest thing we do now is to help us fulfill our vision to help us fulfill our vision to help us fulfill our vision is uh with the last say is connections is uh with the last say is connections is uh with the last say is connections or connecting or connecting or connecting we have strategic partners that uh some we have strategic partners that uh some we have strategic partners that uh some of them one of them helps helps to raise of them one of them helps helps to raise of them one of them helps helps to raise capital capital stewardship campaigns or capital capital stewardship campaigns or capital capital stewardship campaigns or financial financial financial discipleship for small churches and make discipleship for small churches and make discipleship for small churches and make it very affordable it very affordable it very affordable or we have people who help uh churches or we have people who help uh churches or we have people who help uh churches qualify for loans or we qualify for loans or we qualify for loans or we we have we just all these strategic we have we just all these strategic we have we just all these strategic partners basically here's the thing partners basically here's the thing partners basically here's the thing jason and somebody calls me and says jason and somebody calls me and says jason and somebody calls me and says we have a problem in this arena we want we have a problem in this arena we want we have a problem in this arena we want to have someone in place that we could to have someone in place that we could to have someone in place that we could connect them with connect them with connect them with just like you're going to become one of just like you're going to become one of just like you're going to become one of our strategic partners you didn't know our strategic partners you didn't know our strategic partners you didn't know that yeah that yeah that yeah you told me about what you do with you told me about what you do with you told me about what you do with helping churches understand how helping churches understand how helping churches understand how analytics and stuff work most of our analytics and stuff work most of our analytics and stuff work most of our people in our space don't understand people in our space don't understand people in our space don't understand that that that so we want to connect them to you and so so we want to connect them to you and so so we want to connect them to you and so so those are the five c's that we so those are the five c's that we so those are the five c's that we that we provide man i tell you i get that we provide man i tell you i get that we provide man i tell you i get excited when i hear that because excited when i hear that because excited when i hear that because each one of those sees whenever i talk each one of those sees whenever i talk each one of those sees whenever i talk to to to to smaller churches well even bigger to smaller churches well even bigger to smaller churches well even bigger churches churches churches there is always something there they're there is always something there they're there is always something there they're always looking for always looking for always looking for the the content or the coaching or the the the content or the coaching or the the the content or the coaching or the um um um the the groups the counseling or the the the groups the counseling or the the the groups the counseling or the conference right conference right conference right and what a great concept to uh

and what a great concept to uh and what a great concept to uh have a conference where they can walk have a conference where they can walk have a conference where they can walk away feeling equipped away feeling equipped away feeling equipped and charged up and actually they can do and charged up and actually they can do and charged up and actually they can do something that's not gonna break the something that's not gonna break the something that's not gonna break the bank or bank or bank or you know out of their realm of posse i you know out of their realm of posse i you know out of their realm of posse i totally get what you're saying there totally get what you're saying there totally get what you're saying there because it's because it's because it's it's often when i go to conferences i'm it's often when i go to conferences i'm it's often when i go to conferences i'm like it's a show and like it's a show and like it's a show and a lot of and again this is it's america a lot of and again this is it's america a lot of and again this is it's america the host church the host church the host church typically they they host and they and typically they they host and they and typically they they host and they and their heart is pure they want to help their heart is pure they want to help their heart is pure they want to help but but it also i mean i've been enough but but it also i mean i've been enough but but it also i mean i've been enough of them where it's like hey look at what of them where it's like hey look at what of them where it's like hey look at what we've done we've done we've done and you know and i remember hearing john and you know and i remember hearing john and you know and i remember hearing john maxwell tell this story years ago how he maxwell tell this story years ago how he maxwell tell this story years ago how he was the keynote speaker was the keynote speaker was the keynote speaker at his denominational national at his denominational national at his denominational national conference and it was a three-day thing conference and it was a three-day thing conference and it was a three-day thing and he said the majority of the pastors and he said the majority of the pastors and he said the majority of the pastors there their churches were under 100 there their churches were under 100 there their churches were under 100 people people people yeah and and it was like all the yeah and and it was like all the yeah and and it was like all the speakers had churches of a thousand or speakers had churches of a thousand or speakers had churches of a thousand or two thousand or this guy had a church of two thousand or this guy had a church of two thousand or this guy had a church of five thousand five thousand five thousand and every one of them and you know how and every one of them and you know how and every one of them and you know how it is it is it is uh can i say fake humility yeah yeah uh can i say fake humility yeah yeah uh can i say fake humility yeah yeah you know we just get you know and we try you know we just get you know and we try you know we just get you know and we try to come across humble well john said he to come across humble well john said he to come across humble well john said he sat in the balcony and he watched the sat in the balcony and he watched the sat in the balcony and he watched the pastors literally he watched their body pastors literally he watched their body pastors literally he watched their body language just sink down and down language just sink down and down language just sink down and down and down and down and down because and down and down and down because and down and down and down because they're going i can't do that i can't do they're going i can't do that i can't do they're going i can't do that i can't do that that that and he said he the holy spirit spoke to and he said he the holy spirit spoke to and he said he the holy spirit spoke to him while he was up there in the balcony him while he was up there in the balcony him while he was up there in the balcony and said i want you to scrap your and said i want you to scrap your and said i want you to scrap your message i want you i want you to get up message i want you i want you to get up message i want you i want you to get up and talk about your mistakes and talk about your mistakes and talk about your mistakes so he said he got a legal pad out and so he said he got a legal pad out and so he said he got a legal pad out and penned out a sermon called fumbles penned out a sermon called fumbles penned out a sermon called fumbles failures and flops failures and flops failures and flops and he said so he uh and he was telling and he said so he uh and he was telling and he said so he uh and he was telling his wife as they were going to lunch his wife as they were going to lunch his wife as they were going to lunch that day about that day about that day about about he said i've written down like 10 about he said i've written down like 10 about he said i've written down like 10 of my biggest failures of my biggest failures of my biggest failures and he said his wife goes oh no john you and he said his wife goes oh no john you and he said his wife goes oh no john you got a lot more than that got a lot more than that got a lot more than that and so she started to add into it he and so she started to add into it he and so she started to add into it he said he got mad at her

said he got mad at her said he got mad at her but he had several pages here so he but he had several pages here so he but he had several pages here so he ended up he got up and all he did was he ended up he got up and all he did was he ended up he got up and all he did was he said he literally got up and all he did said he literally got up and all he did said he literally got up and all he did was tell the mistakes he made and he was tell the mistakes he made and he was tell the mistakes he made and he said by the time he left those guys were said by the time he left those guys were said by the time he left those guys were energized they're high-fiving each other energized they're high-fiving each other energized they're high-fiving each other because he gave them hope yeah you know because he gave them hope yeah you know because he gave them hope yeah you know and and that was one of the things i and and that was one of the things i and and that was one of the things i always loved about always loved about always loved about him you know he's he's certainly very him you know he's he's certainly very him you know he's he's certainly very secure in what he does secure in what he does secure in what he does yeah but he he has always been good yeah but he he has always been good yeah but he he has always been good about telling when he messed up about telling when he messed up about telling when he messed up yeah my book which we'll talk about that yeah my book which we'll talk about that yeah my book which we'll talk about that in a second it's all about it's i mean in a second it's all about it's i mean in a second it's all about it's i mean i'm just transparently telling you i'm just transparently telling you i'm just transparently telling you i was a mess you know and well here's i was a mess you know and well here's i was a mess you know and well here's what we've discovered jason that this what we've discovered jason that this what we've discovered jason that this so it's kind of encouraging kind of so it's kind of encouraging kind of so it's kind of encouraging kind of discouraging discouraging discouraging and i don't have a scientific research and i don't have a scientific research and i don't have a scientific research to back this up but this is just my to back this up but this is just my to back this up but this is just my hunch hunch hunch uh it it feels like about 50 of the uh it it feels like about 50 of the uh it it feels like about 50 of the churches that we churches that we churches that we work that we encounter just don't want work that we encounter just don't want work that we encounter just don't want to die to die to die and if we can meet a church that just and if we can meet a church that just and if we can meet a church that just doesn't want to die doesn't want to die doesn't want to die we can help it now the other half are we can help it now the other half are we can help it now the other half are going to keep doing what they've been going to keep doing what they've been going to keep doing what they've been doing doing doing and and that's you know i'm i'm not and and that's you know i'm i'm not and and that's you know i'm i'm not going to worry about them because going to worry about them because going to worry about them because they're they're they're they've chosen to go that way but if we they've chosen to go that way but if we they've chosen to go that way but if we meet up i will do meet up i will do meet up i will do anything i possibly can within the gifts anything i possibly can within the gifts anything i possibly can within the gifts that god has given me if i meet a pastor that god has given me if i meet a pastor that god has given me if i meet a pastor or i meet a church that says we just or i meet a church that says we just or i meet a church that says we just don't want to die don't want to die don't want to die we will help them because we well i we will help them because we well i we will help them because we well i think about all the souls we're going to think about all the souls we're going to think about all the souls we're going to reach reach reach yeah you know i think about the next yeah you know i think about the next yeah you know i think about the next billy graham or billy graham or billy graham or craig groeschel or whoever's out there craig groeschel or whoever's out there craig groeschel or whoever's out there that that right now might be three years that that right now might be three years that that right now might be three years old old old yeah we've got to help the churches yeah we've got to help the churches yeah we've got to help the churches that's right that's right that's right hi bart blair here i'm the producer of hi bart blair here i'm the producer of hi bart blair here i'm the producer of missional marketing's church growth missional marketing's church growth missional marketing's church growth interviews podcast

interviews podcast interviews podcast on behalf of our entire team we really on behalf of our entire team we really on behalf of our entire team we really appreciate you tuning in appreciate you tuning in appreciate you tuning in let me ask you a question if you're a let me ask you a question if you're a let me ask you a question if you're a church leader or a church communications church leader or a church communications church leader or a church communications professional professional professional do you know how google sees your church do you know how google sees your church do you know how google sees your church website website website in other words if people in your in other words if people in your in other words if people in your community were to google churches near community were to google churches near community were to google churches near me me me or best church in my city or good church or best church in my city or good church or best church in my city or good church nearby nearby nearby do you know where your church website do you know where your church website do you know where your church website would show up in those search results would show up in those search results would show up in those search results at the top maybe or somewhere in the at the top maybe or somewhere in the at the top maybe or somewhere in the middle or somewhere on page four middle or somewhere on page four middle or somewhere on page four you know there's a common you know there's a common you know there's a common misunderstanding that if we simply build misunderstanding that if we simply build misunderstanding that if we simply build a great website and we launch it that a great website and we launch it that a great website and we launch it that google will somehow work its google will somehow work its google will somehow work its magic and people will find us online but magic and people will find us online but magic and people will find us online but there's a bit more art and science to there's a bit more art and science to there's a bit more art and science to making sure that your church website making sure that your church website making sure that your church website shows up shows up shows up in the top of those search results and in the top of those search results and in the top of those search results and that science is called local seo that science is called local seo that science is called local seo or local search engine optimization in or local search engine optimization in or local search engine optimization in additional marketing additional marketing additional marketing local seo is one of the core services local seo is one of the core services local seo is one of the core services that we provide for churches that we provide for churches that we provide for churches all across the united states and canada all across the united states and canada all across the united states and canada we'd love to help you we'd love to help you we'd love to help you if you'd like to learn more click to our if you'd like to learn more click to our if you'd like to learn more click to our website at missionalmarketing.com and website at missionalmarketing.com and website at missionalmarketing.com and follow the link follow the link follow the link at the top of the page that says church at the top of the page that says church at the top of the page that says church seo you can request a free local seo seo you can request a free local seo seo you can request a free local seo report to see report to see report to see how your church is showing up in google how your church is showing up in google how your church is showing up in google these days and you can schedule an these days and you can schedule an these days and you can schedule an appointment to talk with jason appointment to talk with jason appointment to talk with jason or with me or with one of our other or with me or with one of our other or with me or with one of our other digital strategists to help you decide digital strategists to help you decide digital strategists to help you decide whether or not a local seo boost is whether or not a local seo boost is whether or not a local seo boost is right for your church right for your church right for your church hey again we appreciate you tuning in to hey again we appreciate you tuning in to hey again we appreciate you tuning in to our podcast and we look forward to the our podcast and we look forward to the our podcast and we look forward to the opportunity to serving you opportunity to serving you opportunity to serving you and your church and reaching more people and your church and reaching more people and your church and reaching more people for jesus now for jesus now for jesus now back to the show yeah well so let's get back to the show yeah well so let's get back to the show yeah well so let's get into what are some misconceptions

into what are some misconceptions into what are some misconceptions or misunderstandings that people have or misunderstandings that people have or misunderstandings that people have about small churches that about small churches that about small churches that that you know is not true or or because that you know is not true or or because that you know is not true or or because you know you you said a comment you made you know you you said a comment you made you know you you said a comment you made a comment that a comment that a comment that hey that church down the street that's hey that church down the street that's hey that church down the street that's running 600 let's just do what they do running 600 let's just do what they do running 600 let's just do what they do well maybe god didn't call you to do well maybe god didn't call you to do well maybe god didn't call you to do that he called you for a specific reason that he called you for a specific reason that he called you for a specific reason and so what what are some of those and so what what are some of those and so what what are some of those misconceptions that that we have about misconceptions that that we have about misconceptions that that we have about smart churches smart churches smart churches that they're irrelevant and they don't that they're irrelevant and they don't that they're irrelevant and they don't matter or that they're out of touch matter or that they're out of touch matter or that they're out of touch uh and honestly that is a misconception uh and honestly that is a misconception uh and honestly that is a misconception but it's somewhat true but it's somewhat true but it's somewhat true because they are they're stalled a lot because they are they're stalled a lot because they are they're stalled a lot of our small churches are stalled part of our small churches are stalled part of our small churches are stalled part of it's because of it's because of it's because and i don't know if you weighed into and i don't know if you weighed into and i don't know if you weighed into this area here or not but a lot of our this area here or not but a lot of our this area here or not but a lot of our church government's not biblical church government's not biblical church government's not biblical a lot of the church government in a lot of the church government in a lot of the church government in america is built around the american america is built around the american america is built around the american way of governing the democracy and way of governing the democracy and way of governing the democracy and that's not that's you don't find that that's not that's you don't find that that's not that's you don't find that in the bible and so in fact when we work in the bible and so in fact when we work in the bible and so in fact when we work with the church the first thing we say with the church the first thing we say with the church the first thing we say is is is hey y'all there's this book called the hey y'all there's this book called the hey y'all there's this book called the bible i say y'all because i'm from south bible i say y'all because i'm from south bible i say y'all because i'm from south carolina carolina carolina this book called the bible there's a man this book called the bible there's a man this book called the bible there's a man named jesus who started something called named jesus who started something called named jesus who started something called the church the church the church and in ephesians 4 verses 11 through 16 and in ephesians 4 verses 11 through 16 and in ephesians 4 verses 11 through 16 he told us exactly how to do it he told us exactly how to do it he told us exactly how to do it he said i'm going to give you these he said i'm going to give you these he said i'm going to give you these ministry gifts apostles prophets ministry gifts apostles prophets ministry gifts apostles prophets evangelists pastors and teachers evangelists pastors and teachers evangelists pastors and teachers to equip saints to do ministry and then to equip saints to do ministry and then to equip saints to do ministry and then he promised what would happen out of he promised what would happen out of he promised what would happen out of that he would you would get maturity that he would you would get maturity that he would you would get maturity and stability you would create integrity and stability you would create integrity and stability you would create integrity and you would have community and you would have community and you would have community verse 16 says you know you're going to verse 16 says you know you're going to verse 16 says you know you're going to have community you know the big argument have community you know the big argument have community you know the big argument has been for years has been for years has been for years is sunday morning is that for the lost is sunday morning is that for the lost is sunday morning is that for the lost or is it for the saved well according to or is it for the saved well according to or is it for the saved well according to ephesians 4 16 ephesians 4 16 ephesians 4 16 it's for both i should be able to go to

it's for both i should be able to go to it's for both i should be able to go to church and get edified church and get edified church and get edified but it also should not be so insider but it also should not be so insider but it also should not be so insider focused that someone who doesn't know focused that someone who doesn't know focused that someone who doesn't know the lord the lord the lord can't find him because a lot of our can't find him because a lot of our can't find him because a lot of our language a lot of our websites language a lot of our websites language a lot of our websites everything's very churchy oriented everything's very churchy oriented everything's very churchy oriented and so so we want to we want to help the and so so we want to we want to help the and so so we want to we want to help the church church church to uh get structured correctly so that to uh get structured correctly so that to uh get structured correctly so that there are misconceptions there are misconceptions there are misconceptions the the the other thing i think that the the the other thing i think that the the the other thing i think that maybe is a misconception is they don't maybe is a misconception is they don't maybe is a misconception is they don't care and it's not that they don't care care and it's not that they don't care care and it's not that they don't care uh i said this to you before we came on uh i said this to you before we came on uh i said this to you before we came on our recording our recording our recording most of our pastors went to school and most of our pastors went to school and most of our pastors went to school and they learned greek and hebrew and they learned greek and hebrew and they learned greek and hebrew and hermeneutics and homiletics and all the hermeneutics and homiletics and all the hermeneutics and homiletics and all the etics and all that stuff etics and all that stuff etics and all that stuff but no one taught them how to lead and but no one taught them how to lead and but no one taught them how to lead and so if you haven't been taught how to so if you haven't been taught how to so if you haven't been taught how to lead lead lead uh the average leader a decent leader uh the average leader a decent leader uh the average leader a decent leader can lead about 70 to 80 people can lead about 70 to 80 people can lead about 70 to 80 people themselves themselves themselves and then you've got to hire some people and then you've got to hire some people and then you've got to hire some people bring on some staff or raise up bring on some staff or raise up bring on some staff or raise up volunteers volunteers volunteers you got to you got to you got to grow you got to you got to you got to grow you got to you got to you got to grow your leadership and most churches aren't your leadership and most churches aren't your leadership and most churches aren't equipped to do that equipped to do that equipped to do that yeah and so there's this misconception yeah and so there's this misconception yeah and so there's this misconception that they don't care that they don't care that they don't care uh because they become insider focused uh because they become insider focused uh because they become insider focused and the truth is they don't know what to and the truth is they don't know what to and the truth is they don't know what to do do do interesting thank goodness for you guys interesting thank goodness for you guys interesting thank goodness for you guys to be able to help pour into that so to be able to help pour into that so to be able to help pour into that so um well okay so last you know 2020 we're um well okay so last you know 2020 we're um well okay so last you know 2020 we're we're now in 2021 we're now in 2021 we're now in 2021 praise god but uh last year was kind of praise god but uh last year was kind of praise god but uh last year was kind of a very rough year for a very rough year for a very rough year for for a lot of churches especially this for a lot of churches especially this for a lot of churches especially this year has been smooth and silk so far year has been smooth and silk so far year has been smooth and silk so far yeah yeah we're running cloud nine over yeah yeah we're running cloud nine over yeah yeah we're running cloud nine over here here here yeah yeah but but uh even through all yeah yeah but but uh even through all yeah yeah but but uh even through all the the the the chaos and the setbacks and what just the chaos and the setbacks and what just the chaos and the setbacks and what just seems like a really

seems like a really seems like a really uh horrible season what were were there uh horrible season what were were there uh horrible season what were were there some wins some wins some wins that smaller churches experienced that that smaller churches experienced that that smaller churches experienced that you can talk about we've often talked about how 2020 is uh we've often talked about how 2020 is uh is is is hindsight is 2020. that's what we have hindsight is 2020. that's what we have hindsight is 2020. that's what we have see here's the thing there was an see here's the thing there was an see here's the thing there was an article that came out i think it was in article that came out i think it was in article that came out i think it was in september by berner september by berner september by berner and and he's in the title of the article and and he's in the title of the article and and he's in the title of the article was like um was like um was like um you know one in one in five churches uh you know one in one in five churches uh you know one in one in five churches uh will not exist will not exist will not exist because of covet comma unless you do and because of covet comma unless you do and because of covet comma unless you do and he he he and he talked about he was the whole and he talked about he was the whole and he talked about he was the whole point of the article was applying to point of the article was applying to point of the article was applying to churches who had evolved and changed and churches who had evolved and changed and churches who had evolved and changed and created opportunities but everybody took created opportunities but everybody took created opportunities but everybody took it and said barnard said that one in it and said barnard said that one in it and said barnard said that one in five churches are going to close because five churches are going to close because five churches are going to close because of covet of covet of covet i don't believe that to be true at all i i don't believe that to be true at all i i don't believe that to be true at all i believe believe believe i believe that what kova did was it sped i believe that what kova did was it sped i believe that what kova did was it sped up what was already happening yeah up what was already happening yeah up what was already happening yeah so if your church was out of touch and so if your church was out of touch and so if your church was out of touch and not relating and not connecting not relating and not connecting not relating and not connecting you it became quite apparent so what 20 you it became quite apparent so what 20 you it became quite apparent so what 20 so what kova did what 2020 did so what kova did what 2020 did so what kova did what 2020 did is it peeled back the facade that we've is it peeled back the facade that we've is it peeled back the facade that we've been hiding behind for years been hiding behind for years been hiding behind for years and god i believe is going to use what and god i believe is going to use what and god i believe is going to use what happened to help us happened to help us happened to help us to catch up and connect yes there are to catch up and connect yes there are to catch up and connect yes there are going to be some churches that are going going to be some churches that are going going to be some churches that are going to not make it because they refuse to to not make it because they refuse to to not make it because they refuse to change change change because their focus is insider because because their focus is insider because because their focus is insider because they they they they aren't willing to embrace they aren't willing to embrace they aren't willing to embrace technology you can't do effective technology you can't do effective technology you can't do effective ministry long term without using ministry long term without using ministry long term without using technology and why would you yeah you technology and why would you yeah you technology and why would you yeah you know know know we we had we we literally were in a we we had we we literally were in a we we had we we literally were in a conference where one at one of our conference where one at one of our conference where one at one of our conferences conferences conferences where these two and i'm going to call

where these two and i'm going to call where these two and i'm going to call them um pharisaical them um pharisaical them um pharisaical pastors started challenging us on pastors started challenging us on pastors started challenging us on whether even paul would use a website if whether even paul would use a website if whether even paul would use a website if he had one he had one he had one and they're like you know they start and they're like you know they start and they're like you know they start getting into the you know all the just getting into the you know all the just getting into the you know all the just trying to sound spiritual kind of stuff trying to sound spiritual kind of stuff trying to sound spiritual kind of stuff and i'm like and i'm like and i'm like are you kidding me do you think that are you kidding me do you think that are you kidding me do you think that paul could have driven a car he wouldn't paul could have driven a car he wouldn't paul could have driven a car he wouldn't have driven a car have driven a car have driven a car or he could have caught a flight come on or he could have caught a flight come on or he could have caught a flight come on dude god has provided these dude god has provided these dude god has provided these opportunities opportunities opportunities and the church as you and i have talked and the church as you and i have talked and the church as you and i have talked about yeah it lags behind typically about yeah it lags behind typically about yeah it lags behind typically what i have always said is the church what i have always said is the church what i have always said is the church tends to be about 20 years behind tends to be about 20 years behind tends to be about 20 years behind whatever's happening whenever changes whatever's happening whenever changes whatever's happening whenever changes are happening but the problem is now are happening but the problem is now are happening but the problem is now change is happening so rapidly uh in our change is happening so rapidly uh in our change is happening so rapidly uh in our culture culture culture that that we can't if we get left behind that that we can't if we get left behind that that we can't if we get left behind two two two two years now it actually becomes like two years now it actually becomes like two years now it actually becomes like 10 oh so that makes sense 10 oh so that makes sense 10 oh so that makes sense and so and so what's happening is um and so and so what's happening is um and so and so what's happening is um 2020 helped us to realize we can change 2020 helped us to realize we can change 2020 helped us to realize we can change because here's what happens so so with because here's what happens so so with because here's what happens so so with the shutdowns you know covet hits the shutdowns you know covet hits the shutdowns you know covet hits and they ask us to shut things down well and they ask us to shut things down well and they ask us to shut things down well when when that happened it was like when when that happened it was like when when that happened it was like about five weeks before easter so easter about five weeks before easter so easter about five weeks before easter so easter was a big was a big was a big great distraction so all the churches great distraction so all the churches great distraction so all the churches were like we just got to get through were like we just got to get through were like we just got to get through easter we've got to do easter easter we've got to do easter easter we've got to do easter so they evolved they changed they did so they evolved they changed they did so they evolved they changed they did what they had to do some churches had what they had to do some churches had what they had to do some churches had here in the south they literally had the here in the south they literally had the here in the south they literally had the staff and the and the praise team staff and the and the praise team staff and the and the praise team on the porch and people sat in their on the porch and people sat in their on the porch and people sat in their cars and listened on an fm transmitter cars and listened on an fm transmitter cars and listened on an fm transmitter which i thought that was the silliest which i thought that was the silliest which i thought that was the silliest thing i'd ever heard of but it worked thing i'd ever heard of but it worked thing i'd ever heard of but it worked for them for them for them and so i don't know it all you know that and so i don't know it all you know that and so i don't know it all you know that worked worked worked uh the problem is now those churches are uh the problem is now those churches are uh the problem is now those churches are having to change because it's it's having to change because it's it's having to change because it's it's it's winter in the south we're supposed

it's winter in the south we're supposed it's winter in the south we're supposed to get snow here which by the way to get snow here which by the way to get snow here which by the way it's a federal holiday when we have snow it's a federal holiday when we have snow it's a federal holiday when we have snow in south carolina but anyway in south carolina but anyway in south carolina but anyway so what happened was uh everybody looked so what happened was uh everybody looked so what happened was uh everybody looked toward easter look toward easter and toward easter look toward easter and toward easter look toward easter and then you know jason then you know jason then you know jason after easter happened i think probably after easter happened i think probably after easter happened i think probably the second week the second week the second week i think pastors really got depressed i think pastors really got depressed i think pastors really got depressed because it's like because it's like because it's like they're like okay this coveted thing's they're like okay this coveted thing's they're like okay this coveted thing's not over yet not over yet not over yet yeah you mean i'm gonna have to keep yeah you mean i'm gonna have to keep yeah you mean i'm gonna have to keep doing this stuff online doing this stuff online doing this stuff online and a lot of them couldn't even meet in and a lot of them couldn't even meet in and a lot of them couldn't even meet in person at all at that point person at all at that point person at all at that point and so um so i think i think and so um so i think i think and so um so i think i think we could describe we could describe last we could describe we could describe last we could describe we could describe last year as that we year as that we year as that we went we were kicking and screaming into went we were kicking and screaming into went we were kicking and screaming into blessing blessing blessing because the lord and culture and because the lord and culture and because the lord and culture and in the need all forced us to change now in the need all forced us to change now in the need all forced us to change now here's the thing that i don't want to here's the thing that i don't want to here's the thing that i don't want to see happen see happen see happen i don't want us just to change and grab i don't want us just to change and grab i don't want us just to change and grab the first thing we see the first thing we see the first thing we see i want us to change strategically to to i want us to change strategically to to i want us to change strategically to to do what we need to be doing in our town do what we need to be doing in our town do what we need to be doing in our town because hey you minister someone in because hey you minister someone in because hey you minister someone in jackson mississippi it's much different jackson mississippi it's much different jackson mississippi it's much different than how you than how you than how you minister to someone in indianapolis and minister to someone in indianapolis and minister to someone in indianapolis and how you minister someone in how you minister someone in how you minister someone in in bozeman montana in bozeman montana in bozeman montana we all have the same mission and that's we all have the same mission and that's we all have the same mission and that's the great commission the great commission the great commission but how you jason the way god wired you but how you jason the way god wired you but how you jason the way god wired you carries it out and how dale cares it out carries it out and how dale cares it out carries it out and how dale cares it out is based on our personality and where we is based on our personality and where we is based on our personality and where we live and how we experience things you live and how we experience things you live and how we experience things you know know know i would probably be a big flop in i would probably be a big flop in i would probably be a big flop in arizona because i talk country arizona because i talk country arizona because i talk country you know i'm just i mean i'd entertain you know i'm just i mean i'd entertain you know i'm just i mean i'd entertain people for about two weeks and then go people for about two weeks and then go people for about two weeks and then go you know all right we're tired of that you know all right we're tired of that you know all right we're tired of that you know you might you know you're you know you might you know you're you know you might you know you're sharper than me so you might work okay

sharper than me so you might work okay sharper than me so you might work okay here in south carolina here in south carolina here in south carolina but but you know god's wired us all a but but you know god's wired us all a but but you know god's wired us all a certain way certain way certain way yeah and so what what we have to do is yeah and so what what we have to do is yeah and so what what we have to do is instead of just instead of just instead of just doing something to be doing something doing something to be doing something doing something to be doing something instead of just live streaming to be instead of just live streaming to be instead of just live streaming to be live streaming live streaming live streaming why are you live streaming right what why are you live streaming right what why are you live streaming right what are you trying to accomplish and are you trying to accomplish and are you trying to accomplish and and see that's why in 20 this new year and see that's why in 20 this new year and see that's why in 20 this new year our entire focus or part of our major our entire focus or part of our major our entire focus or part of our major focus at 95 network focus at 95 network focus at 95 network is to help churches learn how to do is to help churches learn how to do is to help churches learn how to do hybrid church which means doing a great hybrid church which means doing a great hybrid church which means doing a great in-person experience but also having a in-person experience but also having a in-person experience but also having a great online presence great online presence great online presence which is much more than just live which is much more than just live which is much more than just live streaming your service streaming your service streaming your service absolutely it has it has two focuses one absolutely it has it has two focuses one absolutely it has it has two focuses one to connect with you and disciple your to connect with you and disciple your to connect with you and disciple your people people people but also to reach those outside your but also to reach those outside your but also to reach those outside your church that are not gonna show up in church that are not gonna show up in church that are not gonna show up in you know these days like showing up to you know these days like showing up to you know these days like showing up to church is just a thing of the past church is just a thing of the past church is just a thing of the past yes people still do it but it's it's yes people still do it but it's it's yes people still do it but it's it's definitely declining and so definitely declining and so definitely declining and so but they still want it they're still but they still want it they're still but they still want it they're still curious they still have felt needs they curious they still have felt needs they curious they still have felt needs they still want to still want to still want to engage and so um yeah those churches engage and so um yeah those churches engage and so um yeah those churches if you want to be relevant you mentioned if you want to be relevant you mentioned if you want to be relevant you mentioned uh uh uh if you're two years i mean just imagine if you're two years i mean just imagine if you're two years i mean just imagine if you know most churches in fact we if you know most churches in fact we if you know most churches in fact we talked to so many churches that talked to so many churches that talked to so many churches that when this thing broke they're like we when this thing broke they're like we when this thing broke they're like we need a website need a website need a website wait a minute what or i'd ask you know wait a minute what or i'd ask you know wait a minute what or i'd ask you know how do you even how do you do giving how do you even how do you do giving how do you even how do you do giving well we pass a basket well we pass a basket well we pass a basket yep you don't have online giving uh okay yep you don't have online giving uh okay yep you don't have online giving uh okay so now we've never needed that before i so now we've never needed that before i so now we've never needed that before i got to tell you this story you only love got to tell you this story you only love got to tell you this story you only love this story you brought it up okay so i this story you brought it up okay so i this story you brought it up okay so i used to see how can i say this i used to see how can i say this i used to see how can i say this i worked at a church at some point in the worked at a church at some point in the worked at a church at some point in the past because i don't necessarily want to

past because i don't necessarily want to past because i don't necessarily want to identify that church identify that church identify that church but i did work and i've worked a lot of but i did work and i've worked a lot of but i did work and i've worked a lot of churches and when i worked there churches and when i worked there churches and when i worked there i noticed that they didn't do online i noticed that they didn't do online i noticed that they didn't do online giving and so i asked why don't we do giving and so i asked why don't we do giving and so i asked why don't we do online giving and the pastor said well online giving and the pastor said well online giving and the pastor said well the the the the the the our financial person won't let us do it our financial person won't let us do it our financial person won't let us do it i said what i said what i said what the person over the finances won't let the person over the finances won't let the person over the finances won't let us do it so i went to that person i said us do it so i went to that person i said us do it so i went to that person i said uh why don't we do online giving and uh why don't we do online giving and uh why don't we do online giving and they told me uh it's not biblical they told me uh it's not biblical they told me uh it's not biblical and i said why is it not biblical and and i said why is it not biblical and and i said why is it not biblical and they said because the bible says you're they said because the bible says you're they said because the bible says you're supposed to pass the plate supposed to pass the plate supposed to pass the plate and i said okay pull your bible out and and i said okay pull your bible out and and i said okay pull your bible out and show me that one show me that one show me that one yeah and and their point was that that yeah and and their point was that that yeah and and their point was that that giving's supposed to be an act of giving's supposed to be an act of giving's supposed to be an act of worship we you can do an act of worship worship we you can do an act of worship worship we you can do an act of worship at your home at your home at your home absolutely and but but that was the i absolutely and but but that was the i absolutely and but but that was the i mean that was just shocking to me we did mean that was just shocking to me we did mean that was just shocking to me we did finally get the church to change and finally get the church to change and finally get the church to change and update update update and you know what the wild thing was and you know what the wild thing was and you know what the wild thing was about 60 of our giving came online after about 60 of our giving came online after about 60 of our giving came online after we changed we changed we changed that's right because society that's that's right because society that's that's right because society that's where it's at but but where it's at but but where it's at but but because of my age you know i'm going to because of my age you know i'm going to because of my age you know i'm going to be 60 pretty soon i got gray hair be 60 pretty soon i got gray hair be 60 pretty soon i got gray hair i love the old people i am not an i love the old people i am not an i love the old people i am not an anti-old person anti-old person anti-old person i believe everything we have in the i believe everything we have in the i believe everything we have in the church today is built on the shoulders church today is built on the shoulders church today is built on the shoulders of those older members of our church and of those older members of our church and of those older members of our church and those in the graveyard i believe that so those in the graveyard i believe that so those in the graveyard i believe that so i don't want to dishonor them i don't want to dishonor them i don't want to dishonor them but it's not dishonoring to look at the but it's not dishonoring to look at the but it's not dishonoring to look at the old people say folks we got to change old people say folks we got to change old people say folks we got to change to reach your grandkids and your great to reach your grandkids and your great to reach your grandkids and your great grandkids grandkids grandkids the message does not change but the the message does not change but the the message does not change but the methods have to methods have to methods have to have to yeah yep have to yeah yep have to yeah yep good stuff well let's let's turn the good stuff well let's let's turn the good stuff well let's let's turn the corner let's talk about your book

corner let's talk about your book corner let's talk about your book uh you recently wrote a book uh called uh you recently wrote a book uh called uh you recently wrote a book uh called stalled stalled stalled uh ex why'd you write it what's it about uh ex why'd you write it what's it about uh ex why'd you write it what's it about give us in some insight story so give us in some insight story so give us in some insight story so when i um when i um met when i um when i um met when i um when i um met with tony morgan uh when i launched my with tony morgan uh when i launched my with tony morgan uh when i launched my new ministry new ministry new ministry or the new dale sellers leadership or the new dale sellers leadership or the new dale sellers leadership ministry back in february ministry back in february ministry back in february of 2014 as i told you i'd been out of of 2014 as i told you i'd been out of of 2014 as i told you i'd been out of the loop or you know out of the i didn't the loop or you know out of the i didn't the loop or you know out of the i didn't know what was going on for 14 years know what was going on for 14 years know what was going on for 14 years well my oldest daughter works at unstuck well my oldest daughter works at unstuck well my oldest daughter works at unstuck and she works for tony and so and i knew and she works for tony and so and i knew and she works for tony and so and i knew tony tony tony and so i just reached out to tony this and so i just reached out to tony this and so i just reached out to tony this was in april after was in april after was in april after uh i launched the ministry in february i uh i launched the ministry in february i uh i launched the ministry in february i just want to talk to him just want to talk to him just want to talk to him and just get some updates on where and just get some updates on where and just get some updates on where things were and jason i had to make a things were and jason i had to make a things were and jason i had to make a phone appointment phone appointment phone appointment i didn't know what that was i just i i didn't know what that was i just i i didn't know what that was i just i thought you could just call people but thought you could just call people but thought you could just call people but no no no i had to make a phone appointment and so i had to make a phone appointment and so i had to make a phone appointment and so it's like it's like a month later before it's like it's like a month later before it's like it's like a month later before i can talk to him i can talk to him i can talk to him so i'm talking to tony in april uh of so i'm talking to tony in april uh of so i'm talking to tony in april uh of 2014 2014 2014 and and i and i'm all fired up and i'm and and i and i'm all fired up and i'm and and i and i'm all fired up and i'm all excited i'm talking about what i'm all excited i'm talking about what i'm all excited i'm talking about what i'm gonna do gonna do gonna do and i really look up to tony i view him and i really look up to tony i view him and i really look up to tony i view him as a mentor and and as a mentor and and as a mentor and and especially now as a dear friend but uh especially now as a dear friend but uh especially now as a dear friend but uh but i'm i'm talking but i'm i'm talking but i'm i'm talking about 15 minutes into the conversation about 15 minutes into the conversation about 15 minutes into the conversation he says he says he says he said i need to tell you something i he said i need to tell you something i he said i need to tell you something i said i'm i'm like said i'm i'm like said i'm i'm like waiting with baited breath tony morgan's waiting with baited breath tony morgan's waiting with baited breath tony morgan's gonna give me a word from god gonna give me a word from god gonna give me a word from god he goes i can't relate to you at all he goes i can't relate to you at all he goes i can't relate to you at all i'm going what because i can't relate to i'm going what because i can't relate to i'm going what because i can't relate to you at all he says you at all he says you at all he says all i've ever done is work in large all i've ever done is work in large all i've ever done is work in large churches or large churches or large churches or large organizations or i worked you know in organizations or i worked you know in organizations or i worked you know in city government city government city government i've never worked in a small church i i

i've never worked in a small church i i i've never worked in a small church i i can't relate to you at all can't relate to you at all can't relate to you at all and i said tony um and i said tony um and i said tony um i want to say something to you today i want to say something to you today i want to say something to you today that i've never told anyone that i've never told anyone that i've never told anyone i said i feel like a failure i said i feel like a failure i said i feel like a failure i've been in ministry at that point now i've been in ministry at that point now i've been in ministry at that point now almost 35 years almost 35 years almost 35 years and i said um i thought i'd be there by and i said um i thought i'd be there by and i said um i thought i'd be there by now now now i said i'm ashamed of myself i'm ashamed i said i'm ashamed of myself i'm ashamed i said i'm ashamed of myself i'm ashamed of the fact that i pastored a church for of the fact that i pastored a church for of the fact that i pastored a church for 12 years 12 years 12 years this started with 30 people when i was this started with 30 people when i was this started with 30 people when i was there grew to 300 and fell back down to there grew to 300 and fell back down to there grew to 300 and fell back down to 150 150 150 because we had a terrible split and i because we had a terrible split and i because we had a terrible split and i said i feel said i feel said i feel i feel like a failure i feel like jesus i feel like a failure i feel like jesus i feel like a failure i feel like jesus is mad at me is mad at me is mad at me and i said and i've never told anybody and i said and i've never told anybody and i said and i've never told anybody this i said tony i thought i'd be there this i said tony i thought i'd be there this i said tony i thought i'd be there by now by now by now and he goes dale that's fascinating why and he goes dale that's fascinating why and he goes dale that's fascinating why don't you don't you don't you write what you just shared with me in an write what you just shared with me in an write what you just shared with me in an article form article form article form i'll put it on tony morgan live let's i'll put it on tony morgan live let's i'll put it on tony morgan live let's put it out there and just see if you get put it out there and just see if you get put it out there and just see if you get any feedback any feedback any feedback so i wrote an article it was released i so i wrote an article it was released i so i wrote an article it was released i think in may of 2014 called think in may of 2014 called think in may of 2014 called uh i thought i'd be there by now uh i thought i'd be there by now uh i thought i'd be there by now confessions of a small church pastor confessions of a small church pastor confessions of a small church pastor and jason i heard from pastors all over and jason i heard from pastors all over and jason i heard from pastors all over america going america going america going i feel you just described how i feel i feel you just described how i feel i feel you just described how i feel about myself about myself about myself i felt like i was less than i felt like i felt like i was less than i felt like i felt like i was less than i felt like jesus was disappointed with me jesus was disappointed with me jesus was disappointed with me part of it's how i grew up i grew up in part of it's how i grew up i grew up in part of it's how i grew up i grew up in a southern baptist church here in the in a southern baptist church here in the in a southern baptist church here in the in the south and the south and the south and and i would go to these youth rallies and i would go to these youth rallies and i would go to these youth rallies and they would tell us things like that and they would tell us things like that and they would tell us things like that there's that there's that there's that you there are people that god has called you there are people that god has called you there are people that god has called you to reach and if you don't reach you to reach and if you don't reach you to reach and if you don't reach those people they will go to hell those people they will go to hell those people they will go to hell because of you because of you because of you or when you get to heaven there's going or when you get to heaven there's going or when you get to heaven there's going to be a big video camera a big screen

to be a big video camera a big screen to be a big video camera a big screen showing your life and especially all the showing your life and especially all the showing your life and especially all the people in hell you didn't reach well people in hell you didn't reach well people in hell you didn't reach well being being being wired as i am and being a firstborn i wired as i am and being a firstborn i wired as i am and being a firstborn i took all that stuff took all that stuff took all that stuff literally yeah and so i mean i when i literally yeah and so i mean i when i literally yeah and so i mean i when i walked through my high school i felt walked through my high school i felt walked through my high school i felt guilty because i didn't get everybody in guilty because i didn't get everybody in guilty because i didn't get everybody in the hospital saved the hospital saved the hospital saved and so so what happened to me that got and so so what happened to me that got and so so what happened to me that got down on the inside of me down on the inside of me down on the inside of me uh to the point that i reached this uh to the point that i reached this uh to the point that i reached this place in my life what i was very place in my life what i was very place in my life what i was very unhealthy unhealthy unhealthy uh it created stress in my life uh five uh it created stress in my life uh five uh it created stress in my life uh five years ago years ago years ago last week uh i had quadruple bypass last week uh i had quadruple bypass last week uh i had quadruple bypass surgery i was 53 years old surgery i was 53 years old surgery i was 53 years old i had a widow maker which means my heart i had a widow maker which means my heart i had a widow maker which means my heart was blocked i had one artery was blocked i had one artery was blocked i had one artery 100 blocked and three arteries 90 100 blocked and three arteries 90 100 blocked and three arteries 90 blocked and didn't know it blocked and didn't know it blocked and didn't know it and i asked my doctor i said how does and i asked my doctor i said how does and i asked my doctor i said how does this happen to me he said this happen to me he said this happen to me he said hypertension and high blood pressure hypertension and high blood pressure hypertension and high blood pressure because of your vocation because of your vocation because of your vocation i said are you saying the ministry i said are you saying the ministry i said are you saying the ministry almost killed me he said that's exactly almost killed me he said that's exactly almost killed me he said that's exactly what i'm telling you what i'm telling you what i'm telling you the stress that i was under and look it the stress that i was under and look it the stress that i was under and look it wasn't this just the stress of the wasn't this just the stress of the wasn't this just the stress of the performance performance performance it was the stress of i i'm not good it was the stress of i i'm not good it was the stress of i i'm not good enough enough enough i can't arrive there um i i didn't know i can't arrive there um i i didn't know i can't arrive there um i i didn't know where there was jason i could i where there was jason i could i where there was jason i could i i didn't i was so discontented and so i didn't i was so discontented and so i didn't i was so discontented and so disappointed with myself disappointed with myself disappointed with myself that i felt like i couldn't get there that i felt like i couldn't get there that i felt like i couldn't get there because i didn't know where there was because i didn't know where there was because i didn't know where there was and so and so and so i'd have a pastor or two ask me dale i'd have a pastor or two ask me dale i'd have a pastor or two ask me dale what's it gonna take for you to feel what's it gonna take for you to feel what's it gonna take for you to feel like a success and i'd go like a success and i'd go like a success and i'd go i don't know so i was really really i don't know so i was really really i don't know so i was really really unhealthy and so unhealthy and so unhealthy and so god had to do a work in my physical god had to do a work in my physical god had to do a work in my physical heart but he also did a healing in my heart but he also did a healing in my heart but he also did a healing in my in my spiritual heart to let me know in my spiritual heart to let me know in my spiritual heart to let me know he's not mad at me he's not mad at me he's not mad at me and i have a friend at newspring church and i have a friend at newspring church and i have a friend at newspring church who tweeted one day his name is shane

who tweeted one day his name is shane who tweeted one day his name is shane on twitter he said you can't let god on twitter he said you can't let god on twitter he said you can't let god down because you're not holding him up down because you're not holding him up down because you're not holding him up well that's not all that deep but for me well that's not all that deep but for me well that's not all that deep but for me that was life changing that was life changing that was life changing because i all this for for the first 50 because i all this for for the first 50 because i all this for for the first 50 years of my life years of my life years of my life i i was like i got to hold if i don't if i i was like i got to hold if i don't if i i was like i got to hold if i don't if i don't come through i don't come through i don't come through in this arena if i don't come through in this arena if i don't come through in this arena if i don't come through then these people are going to go to then these people are going to go to then these people are going to go to hell because of me and jesus must be so hell because of me and jesus must be so hell because of me and jesus must be so disappointed with me because i haven't disappointed with me because i haven't disappointed with me because i haven't achieved what he wanted me to do so that achieved what he wanted me to do so that achieved what he wanted me to do so that is the that is the basis for the book is the that is the basis for the book is the that is the basis for the book and so what i did i just wrote the the and so what i did i just wrote the the and so what i did i just wrote the the book's called stalled book's called stalled book's called stalled hope and helped for pastors who thought hope and helped for pastors who thought hope and helped for pastors who thought they'd be there by now and it's really they'd be there by now and it's really they'd be there by now and it's really my story it's very transparent my story it's very transparent my story it's very transparent and just kind of walks you through how and just kind of walks you through how and just kind of walks you through how the first section is why can't i get the first section is why can't i get the first section is why can't i get there there there the second section is what will i find the second section is what will i find the second section is what will i find there and then the third section is the there and then the third section is the there and then the third section is the fulfillment of living there fulfillment of living there fulfillment of living there which is where i'm finally at now which is where i'm finally at now which is where i'm finally at now you know and now i only got what 30 you know and now i only got what 30 you know and now i only got what 30 years left years left years left you're just going to start whatever god you're just going to start whatever god you're just going to start whatever god determines it doesn't matter anymore determines it doesn't matter anymore determines it doesn't matter anymore wow what a great resource for for wow what a great resource for for wow what a great resource for for pastors pastors pastors young and old doesn't matter you know it young and old doesn't matter you know it young and old doesn't matter you know it doesn't matter we're doesn't matter we're doesn't matter we're you're always on the journey well you you're always on the journey well you you're always on the journey well you know one of the things i was know one of the things i was know one of the things i was when we named it helping hope for when we named it helping hope for when we named it helping hope for pastors who thought they'd be there i i pastors who thought they'd be there i i pastors who thought they'd be there i i didn't really want to didn't really want to didn't really want to call it that because because there's 30 call it that because because there's 30 call it that because because there's 30 year olds who feel like year olds who feel like year olds who feel like they thought they'd be there by now that they thought they'd be there by now that they thought they'd be there by now that you know the the young you know the the young you know the the young the the the end of the millennials in the the the end of the millennials in the the the end of the millennials in the beginning of the next generation the beginning of the next generation the beginning of the next generation if they haven't changed the world by the if they haven't changed the world by the if they haven't changed the world by the time they're 30 they feel like their time they're 30 they feel like their time they're 30 they feel like their life's a waste life's a waste life's a waste so the book speaks to young and old uh

so the book speaks to young and old uh so the book speaks to young and old uh but it's been it's it's uh jason the but it's been it's it's uh jason the but it's been it's it's uh jason the response to has been amazing i mean i response to has been amazing i mean i response to has been amazing i mean i literally literally literally i just talked to a pastor yesterday in i just talked to a pastor yesterday in i just talked to a pastor yesterday in tennessee who read the book and just tennessee who read the book and just tennessee who read the book and just reached out to me reached out to me reached out to me it's crazy man it's just crazy this is it's crazy man it's just crazy this is it's crazy man it's just crazy this is so weird well that is so cool how god's so weird well that is so cool how god's so weird well that is so cool how god's using your past and your ministry using your past and your ministry using your past and your ministry experience experience experience and there's a reason why you went and there's a reason why you went and there's a reason why you went through all that you know through all that you know through all that you know his purpose his plan and well i was just his purpose his plan and well i was just his purpose his plan and well i was just so performance oriented so performance oriented so performance oriented i i just i i gazed everything i know i i just i i gazed everything i know i i just i i gazed everything i know you're saying you're saying you're saying listen i know again pastors listen i listen i know again pastors listen i listen i know again pastors listen i know what you believe theologically know what you believe theologically know what you believe theologically and i knew theologically you're saved by and i knew theologically you're saved by and i knew theologically you're saved by grace free gift free gift free gift grace free gift free gift free gift grace free gift free gift free gift but i grew up in a culture that would but i grew up in a culture that would but i grew up in a culture that would preach you're saved by grace it's a free preach you're saved by grace it's a free preach you're saved by grace it's a free gift gift gift but then you prove how saved you are by but then you prove how saved you are by but then you prove how saved you are by what you do yeah what you do yeah what you do yeah and and that got inside of me to the and and that got inside of me to the and and that got inside of me to the point that i didn't even know it so point that i didn't even know it so point that i didn't even know it so i could never be happy i could never be i could never be happy i could never be i could never be happy i could never be satisfied i had three areas of my life satisfied i had three areas of my life satisfied i had three areas of my life that i was always gauging i was skating that i was always gauging i was skating that i was always gauging i was skating my spiritual life my spiritual life my spiritual life my uh my family life and then my my uh my family life and then my my uh my family life and then my vocational you know the pastoring side vocational you know the pastoring side vocational you know the pastoring side and and i never allowed myself to ever and and i never allowed myself to ever and and i never allowed myself to ever score high in all three categories score high in all three categories score high in all three categories it was always one category it felt like it was always one category it felt like it was always one category it felt like it was lagging way behind the other two it was lagging way behind the other two it was lagging way behind the other two now i will say the one thing that i now i will say the one thing that i now i will say the one thing that i think i did write in those years think i did write in those years think i did write in those years was i made my fam my family first was i made my fam my family first was i made my fam my family first priority i would not i did not sacrifice priority i would not i did not sacrifice priority i would not i did not sacrifice my wife my wife my wife or my kids i have three daughters i or my kids i have three daughters i or my kids i have three daughters i would not sacrifice them on the altar of would not sacrifice them on the altar of would not sacrifice them on the altar of ministry ministry ministry and i'm so thankful i didn't do that and i'm so thankful i didn't do that and i'm so thankful i didn't do that because then i would have i wouldn't be because then i would have i wouldn't be because then i would have i wouldn't be talking to you today talking to you today talking to you today yeah yep yep that makes sense yeah yeah yep yep that makes sense yeah yeah yep yep that makes sense yeah yeah well we work with uh we were we're

yeah well we work with uh we were we're yeah well we work with uh we were we're blessed and fortunate to be serving a blessed and fortunate to be serving a blessed and fortunate to be serving a lot of small churches lot of small churches lot of small churches around the country that i think are around the country that i think are around the country that i think are doing amazing things and doing amazing things and doing amazing things and um i i think this can be really um i i think this can be really um i i think this can be really encouraging for them encouraging for them encouraging for them um so if you haven't got dale's book um so if you haven't got dale's book um so if you haven't got dale's book get it right go to amazon or wherever get it right go to amazon or wherever get it right go to amazon or wherever you go you go you go amazon uh david c cook publishing amazon uh david c cook publishing amazon uh david c cook publishing published the book it came out last published the book it came out last published the book it came out last september september september it's on amazon you get you know it's it's on amazon you get you know it's it's on amazon you get you know it's also in a kindle version as well also in a kindle version as well also in a kindle version as well uh we are actually creating a new uh we are actually creating a new uh we are actually creating a new resource that we resource that we resource that we that we're going it's called from stall that we're going it's called from stall that we're going it's called from stall to freedom that's going to be to freedom that's going to be to freedom that's going to be i've shot three videos that we have done i've shot three videos that we have done i've shot three videos that we have done for our virtual conferences for our virtual conferences for our virtual conferences it'll be like if you you can see over my it'll be like if you you can see over my it'll be like if you you can see over my shoulder there's a blue box back there shoulder there's a blue box back there shoulder there's a blue box back there called vision box that's a resource we called vision box that's a resource we called vision box that's a resource we have have have in 95 network we're going to have the in 95 network we're going to have the in 95 network we're going to have the stalled box of the this coming out stalled box of the this coming out stalled box of the this coming out pretty soon too oh good pretty soon too oh good pretty soon too oh good and they'll have videos with it to kind and they'll have videos with it to kind and they'll have videos with it to kind of work through so you can actually take of work through so you can actually take of work through so you can actually take your staff your staff your staff through that as well yeah yeah well i through that as well yeah yeah well i through that as well yeah yeah well i sounds like there's two things you need sounds like there's two things you need sounds like there's two things you need to do church you need to to do church you need to to do church you need to buy the book and then you should become buy the book and then you should become buy the book and then you should become a member a member a member of 95 network it's 95 bucks for the year of 95 network it's 95 bucks for the year of 95 network it's 95 bucks for the year for the year and we are we are literally for the year and we are we are literally for the year and we are we are literally as we speak today we are overhauling our as we speak today we are overhauling our as we speak today we are overhauling our website and we're website and we're website and we're overhauling our membership process to overhauling our membership process to overhauling our membership process to even make it even more engaging and more even make it even more engaging and more even make it even more engaging and more valuable valuable valuable yeah i mean there's just some incredible yeah i mean there's just some incredible yeah i mean there's just some incredible things in there like tony morgan did a things in there like tony morgan did a things in there like tony morgan did a course a couple years ago called leading course a couple years ago called leading course a couple years ago called leading an unstuck church an unstuck church an unstuck church well that if you buy that if you go well that if you buy that if you go well that if you buy that if you go straight to unstuck and buy it's it's straight to unstuck and buy it's it's straight to unstuck and buy it's it's 499 dollars 499 dollars 499 dollars yeah but he gave it to us so if you join yeah but he gave it to us so if you join yeah but he gave it to us so if you join 95 network you get that course for free 95 network you get that course for free 95 network you get that course for free oh there's there's the value right there oh there's there's the value right there oh there's there's the value right there he loves he loves the small church and he loves he loves the small church and he loves he loves the small church and it's a 12-12

it's a 12-12 it's a 12-12 lesson course to work your staff or your lesson course to work your staff or your lesson course to work your staff or your board through board through board through on how to make sure your church isn't on how to make sure your church isn't on how to make sure your church isn't stuck and that's just one of the stuck and that's just one of the stuck and that's just one of the resources that's in there resources that's in there resources that's in there um that's awesome okay so you you've um that's awesome okay so you you've um that's awesome okay so you you've talked about talked about talked about you get inspiration from john maxwell you get inspiration from john maxwell you get inspiration from john maxwell pretty good leader pretty good leader pretty good leader uh you get inspiration from tony morgan uh you get inspiration from tony morgan uh you get inspiration from tony morgan another phenomenal leader another phenomenal leader another phenomenal leader where is there anywhere else that you where is there anywhere else that you where is there anywhere else that you find inspiration or what do you read find inspiration or what do you read find inspiration or what do you read these days or these days or these days or what blogs are you following um what blogs are you following um what blogs are you following um i don't read a lot at this point because i don't read a lot at this point because i don't read a lot at this point because i'm writing i'm writing i'm writing and i don't want to plagiarize i i love and i don't want to plagiarize i i love and i don't want to plagiarize i i love love love love i love love andy stanley i i think andy i love love andy stanley i i think andy i love love andy stanley i i think andy stanley is a next generation leader stanley is a next generation leader stanley is a next generation leader uh i love robert morris uh i i love his uh i love robert morris uh i i love his uh i love robert morris uh i i love his heart heart heart he's a very passionate pastor type uh he's a very passionate pastor type uh he's a very passionate pastor type uh person i love person i love person i love um connected to rick warren uh somewhat um connected to rick warren uh somewhat um connected to rick warren uh somewhat with purpose driven with purpose driven with purpose driven uh dabo sweeney the football coach at uh dabo sweeney the football coach at uh dabo sweeney the football coach at clemson is an inspiration to me clemson is an inspiration to me clemson is an inspiration to me because i'm a big clemson fan and and he because i'm a big clemson fan and and he because i'm a big clemson fan and and he he takes he takes he takes so much heat because of his stand up for so much heat because of his stand up for so much heat because of his stand up for his faith and his faith and his faith and that you know that's that is very that you know that's that is very that you know that's that is very encouraging that he's just living his encouraging that he's just living his encouraging that he's just living his life you know life you know life you know being who he is and in that setting so being who he is and in that setting so being who he is and in that setting so uh all the ohio state people won't like uh all the ohio state people won't like uh all the ohio state people won't like that but anyway that but anyway that but anyway of course this year they beat the snot of course this year they beat the snot of course this year they beat the snot out of us but anyway out of us but anyway out of us but anyway um uh those people inspire me but um uh those people inspire me but um uh those people inspire me but probably uh probably uh probably uh the my greatest inspiration and and the my greatest inspiration and and the my greatest inspiration and and you're not old enough to even probably you're not old enough to even probably you're not old enough to even probably remember this group it was a group in remember this group it was a group in remember this group it was a group in the 70s and 80s and 90s called truth the 70s and 80s and 90s called truth the 70s and 80s and 90s called truth uh and a guy named roger brilliant uh and a guy named roger brilliant uh and a guy named roger brilliant founded that group and founded that group and founded that group and and he took me under his wing when we

and he took me under his wing when we and he took me under his wing when we were doing our music ministry were doing our music ministry were doing our music ministry and he was the guy that i had to fall and he was the guy that i had to fall and he was the guy that i had to fall back on back on back on there there are a couple of moments in there there are a couple of moments in there there are a couple of moments in my life where like i had my life where like i had my life where like i had really tough decisions to make and i and really tough decisions to make and i and really tough decisions to make and i and i reached out to him i reached out to him i reached out to him the first one and this will speak to our the first one and this will speak to our the first one and this will speak to our pastors who are listening so pastors who are listening so pastors who are listening so so when we've launched our music group so when we've launched our music group so when we've launched our music group we went full time from part time we went full time from part time we went full time from part time we you know for the first two years we we you know for the first two years we we you know for the first two years we would work jobs during the week and would work jobs during the week and would work jobs during the week and travel on the weekend travel on the weekend travel on the weekend so we'd do friday night saturday and two so we'd do friday night saturday and two so we'd do friday night saturday and two concerts on sunday then be back concerts on sunday then be back concerts on sunday then be back at work at monday morning eight o'clock at work at monday morning eight o'clock at work at monday morning eight o'clock that about killed us that about killed us that about killed us but we go full time but once we go full but we go full time but once we go full but we go full time but once we go full time man we hit it we had a time man we hit it we had a time man we hit it we had a just a a season where it was just a lull just a a season where it was just a lull just a a season where it was just a lull in scheduling events in scheduling events in scheduling events uh and it looked like we weren't gonna uh and it looked like we weren't gonna uh and it looked like we weren't gonna make it so i called roger brilliant make it so i called roger brilliant make it so i called roger brilliant this is pre-cell phone days that's how this is pre-cell phone days that's how this is pre-cell phone days that's how old i am uh and i just i called and old i am uh and i just i called and old i am uh and i just i called and and i left something i left uh he had a and i left something i left uh he had a and i left something i left uh he had a thing called an answering machine thing called an answering machine thing called an answering machine okay so you don't even know what that is okay so you don't even know what that is okay so you don't even know what that is probably i left him a message and i just probably i left him a message and i just probably i left him a message and i just said hey said hey said hey hey i said i said hey mr brennan this is hey i said i said hey mr brennan this is hey i said i said hey mr brennan this is dale uh dale uh dale uh we're dying out here call back if you we're dying out here call back if you we're dying out here call back if you care and i hung up care and i hung up care and i hung up and so he calls back he goes what's your and so he calls back he goes what's your and so he calls back he goes what's your problem i said man i said we're dying problem i said man i said we're dying problem i said man i said we're dying out here we can't out here we can't out here we can't you know we're not making it financially you know we're not making it financially you know we're not making it financially we can't get bookends we can't get bookends we can't get bookends uh how do you know when it's time to uh how do you know when it's time to uh how do you know when it's time to quit and and i want to say this because quit and and i want to say this because quit and and i want to say this because i i i i want the pastors listening right now i want the pastors listening right now i want the pastors listening right now to catch this to catch this to catch this how do you know when it's time to quit how do you know when it's time to quit how do you know when it's time to quit he goes okay he said well dale did he goes okay he said well dale did he goes okay he said well dale did god call you to start i said yes sir god call you to start i said yes sir god call you to start i said yes sir he said that god called you to quit and he said that god called you to quit and he said that god called you to quit and i said no sir i said no sir i said no sir he said do you want to honor god with

he said do you want to honor god with he said do you want to honor god with your life and i said yes sir your life and i said yes sir your life and i said yes sir he goes well it sounds to me like you he goes well it sounds to me like you he goes well it sounds to me like you just need to have you're going to have just need to have you're going to have just need to have you're going to have to hang in there through the tough times to hang in there through the tough times to hang in there through the tough times because if you quit because if you quit because if you quit and you want to honor god you're going and you want to honor god you're going and you want to honor god you're going to have to start over again but you're to have to start over again but you're to have to start over again but you're going to be further behind going to be further behind going to be further behind jason i cannot tell you the impact that jason i cannot tell you the impact that jason i cannot tell you the impact that had in my life because we stuck it out had in my life because we stuck it out had in my life because we stuck it out and then then things just went wide open and then then things just went wide open and then then things just went wide open for us for us for us but he helped me to understand there are but he helped me to understand there are but he helped me to understand there are ups and downs there are there are ups and downs there are there are ups and downs there are there are springs and summers and winters and springs and summers and winters and springs and summers and winters and falls there are seasons falls there are seasons falls there are seasons in life and seasons in ministry there in life and seasons in ministry there in life and seasons in ministry there are times when you have are times when you have are times when you have great success and it's just like every great success and it's just like every great success and it's just like every sermon you're preaching everybody's sermon you're preaching everybody's sermon you're preaching everybody's going going going oh my goodness that's the greatest oh my goodness that's the greatest oh my goodness that's the greatest pastor i've ever heard pastor i've ever heard pastor i've ever heard and there's other times you'll preach and there's other times you'll preach and there's other times you'll preach the best message you've ever heard and the best message you've ever heard and the best message you've ever heard and nobody likes it nobody likes it nobody likes it it's not about that it's not about how it's not about that it's not about how it's not about that it's not about how you feel it's about you feel it's about you feel it's about resting in what who you who you are what resting in what who you who you are what resting in what who you who you are what you're called to do and the other thing you're called to do and the other thing you're called to do and the other thing i i i i called him one time and i had i had to i called him one time and i had i had to i called him one time and i had i had to fire somebody and that was very fire somebody and that was very fire somebody and that was very difficult difficult difficult i didn't know how to fire somebody in i didn't know how to fire somebody in i didn't know how to fire somebody in ministry and i asked myself how do you ministry and i asked myself how do you ministry and i asked myself how do you do that do that do that he says well i look at i look at what he says well i look at i look at what he says well i look at i look at what we're doing here he said i pull myself we're doing here he said i pull myself we're doing here he said i pull myself back out of it i say what's best for our back out of it i say what's best for our back out of it i say what's best for our ministry ministry ministry and and those two pieces of advice and and and those two pieces of advice and and and those two pieces of advice and he he he that shaped who a lot of my life you that shaped who a lot of my life you that shaped who a lot of my life you know know know because uh he paid a lot of dues and he because uh he paid a lot of dues and he because uh he paid a lot of dues and he was willing to share with me so was willing to share with me so was willing to share with me so he's a major major influencer in my life he's a major major influencer in my life he's a major major influencer in my life i just i just i just uh almost a father figure uh almost a father figure uh almost a father figure well thank you for sharing all that um well thank you for sharing all that um well thank you for sharing all that um so if if people want to get connected so if if people want to get connected so if if people want to get connected 95network.org 95network.org 95network.org go buy the book become a member and get

go buy the book become a member and get go buy the book become a member and get connected you know connected you know connected you know it's it's a tough season right now we're it's it's a tough season right now we're it's it's a tough season right now we're still in it still in it still in it and a lot of churches can't we're going and a lot of churches can't we're going and a lot of churches can't we're going to be in the rest of the year to be in the rest of the year to be in the rest of the year here's the thing jason i think a lot of here's the thing jason i think a lot of here's the thing jason i think a lot of churches are like we just want to get churches are like we just want to get churches are like we just want to get back to the way things were back to the way things were back to the way things were that's not happening and you don't want that's not happening and you don't want that's not happening and you don't want that no we're never going back it's that no we're never going back it's that no we're never going back it's never going to be like it was before never going to be like it was before never going to be like it was before and again at 95 network we exist to help and again at 95 network we exist to help and again at 95 network we exist to help the small the small the small and mid-sized church and if you need and mid-sized church and if you need and mid-sized church and if you need help if you don't know what to do help if you don't know what to do help if you don't know what to do please reach out to us i talk to pastors please reach out to us i talk to pastors please reach out to us i talk to pastors every week every week every week all across america and some around the all across america and some around the all across america and some around the world every week i have calls world every week i have calls world every week i have calls where people reach out and just say well where people reach out and just say well where people reach out and just say well we don't know what to do and listen if i we don't know what to do and listen if i we don't know what to do and listen if i don't know what to do don't know what to do don't know what to do i'll say listen let me connect you with i'll say listen let me connect you with i'll say listen let me connect you with my friend jason he'll tell you i mean i my friend jason he'll tell you i mean i my friend jason he'll tell you i mean i will connect you to whoever will connect you to whoever will connect you to whoever but we don't uh here's the thing i don't but we don't uh here's the thing i don't but we don't uh here's the thing i don't want you laying on the floor of your want you laying on the floor of your want you laying on the floor of your office like i did office like i did office like i did for years and cry because you don't have for years and cry because you don't have for years and cry because you don't have a friend a friend a friend we we want to be that friend for you and we we want to be that friend for you and we we want to be that friend for you and we love the small church and we love the small church and we love the small church and if anybody asks me why do you do what if anybody asks me why do you do what if anybody asks me why do you do what you do at 95 network this is it you do at 95 network this is it you do at 95 network this is it when i get to heaven i want jesus to when i get to heaven i want jesus to when i get to heaven i want jesus to walk over and give me a fist pump and walk over and give me a fist pump and walk over and give me a fist pump and say say say hey thanks for helping the small church hey thanks for helping the small church hey thanks for helping the small church yeah that's why we do it yeah that's why we do it yeah that's why we do it it matters it matters it matters it matters it matters it matters thank you dale we appreciate your thank you dale we appreciate your thank you dale we appreciate your insight thank you sir insight thank you sir insight thank you sir all right we'll talk to you soon all right we'll talk to you soon all right we'll talk to you soon well as i recap this podcast a big well as i recap this podcast a big well as i recap this podcast a big thank you to dale dale we appreciate the thank you to dale dale we appreciate the thank you to dale dale we appreciate the fact that you have fact that you have fact that you have poured decades of your life into poured decades of your life into poured decades of your life into ministry and ministry and ministry and god is using you in a mighty way and

god is using you in a mighty way and god is using you in a mighty way and thank you for writing that book i think thank you for writing that book i think thank you for writing that book i think a lot of us will benefit from that a lot of us will benefit from that a lot of us will benefit from that especially if you're feeling frustrated especially if you're feeling frustrated especially if you're feeling frustrated stuck stuck stuck or stalled and church or stalled and church or stalled and church you should do two things number one go you should do two things number one go you should do two things number one go get his book a great read get his book a great read get his book a great read a lot of insight and so go get his book a lot of insight and so go get his book a lot of insight and so go get his book and find it on amazon and find it on amazon and find it on amazon second is go to 95network.org and second is go to 95network.org and second is go to 95network.org and subscribe it's pretty cost effective subscribe it's pretty cost effective subscribe it's pretty cost effective you're going to get those five c's and i you're going to get those five c's and i you're going to get those five c's and i love that they're offering love that they're offering love that they're offering so much value for a very small so much value for a very small so much value for a very small investment investment investment and so tune into that here at missional and so tune into that here at missional and so tune into that here at missional marketing we marketing we marketing we we desperately care about all churches we desperately care about all churches we desperately care about all churches but especially smaller churches but especially smaller churches but especially smaller churches uh that may not have all the resources uh that may not have all the resources uh that may not have all the resources and so and so and so our heart and our desire is to educate our heart and our desire is to educate our heart and our desire is to educate and equip and equip and equip educate and equip so that you're educate and equip so that you're educate and equip so that you're informed informed informed and you have knowledge and you can make and you have knowledge and you can make and you have knowledge and you can make good decisions good decisions good decisions about what it takes to to grow about what it takes to to grow about what it takes to to grow your church and reach more people and so your church and reach more people and so your church and reach more people and so using digital tools is a great way to go using digital tools is a great way to go using digital tools is a great way to go about doing it about doing it about doing it you don't have to be an expert in fact you don't have to be an expert in fact you don't have to be an expert in fact if if you don't know anything if if you don't know anything if if you don't know anything that's okay let's start right there and that's okay let's start right there and that's okay let's start right there and we want to help you and so on we want to help you and so on we want to help you and so on missionalmarketing.com we have a ton of missionalmarketing.com we have a ton of missionalmarketing.com we have a ton of resources in our blog resources in our blog resources in our blog certainly all the podcasts that we do certainly all the podcasts that we do certainly all the podcasts that we do and we've all throughout all the pages and we've all throughout all the pages and we've all throughout all the pages of missional marketing we offer of missional marketing we offer of missional marketing we offer free reports and free forms we would free reports and free forms we would free reports and free forms we would also also also love to have a conversation with you a love to have a conversation with you a love to have a conversation with you a complimentary complimentary complimentary conversation to explain what you're

conversation to explain what you're conversation to explain what you're looking at looking at looking at and uh that way we're educating and and uh that way we're educating and and uh that way we're educating and informing you so informing you so informing you so take advantage of that so uh take advantage of that so uh take advantage of that so uh from there on we're excited about where from there on we're excited about where from there on we're excited about where we're headed and um we're headed and um we're headed and um hopefully we're going to be getting out hopefully we're going to be getting out hopefully we're going to be getting out of this season where we are of this season where we are of this season where we are with kovid and uh but it's it's so with kovid and uh but it's it's so with kovid and uh but it's it's so important we can never go back i don't important we can never go back i don't important we can never go back i don't think we'll go back to think we'll go back to think we'll go back to the way it used to be we have to look the way it used to be we have to look the way it used to be we have to look towards the future towards the future towards the future and so i i encourage you to tune in and and so i i encourage you to tune in and and so i i encourage you to tune in and and get plugged in all right until next and get plugged in all right until next and get plugged in all right until next time time time god bless