The Comms Director Burnout Nobody Talks About | Jason and Bart

What will work against you is when What will work against you is when you're a hard worker. you're a hard worker. you're a hard worker. What will work against you is when What will work against you is when What will work against you is when you're a hard worker. What I mean by you're a hard worker. What I mean by you're a hard worker. What I mean by that is when you're a hard worker, they that is when you're a hard worker, they that is when you're a hard worker, they can count on you. They're going to give can count on you. They're going to give can count on you. They're going to give you more. Uh maybe not more salary, but you more. Uh maybe not more salary, but you more. Uh maybe not more salary, but more responsibility, more hats to wear. more responsibility, more hats to wear. more responsibility, more hats to wear. Welcome to episode number 186 of the Welcome to episode number 186 of the Welcome to episode number 186 of the Missional Marketing Podcast. Bart Blair Missional Marketing Podcast. Bart Blair Missional Marketing Podcast. Bart Blair and Jason Hamrock here with you today. and Jason Hamrock here with you today. and Jason Hamrock here with you today. Hey, good day, Jason. Hey, good day, Jason. Hey, good day, Jason. >> Hey, Bart. How's it going today, my >> Hey, Bart. How's it going today, my >> Hey, Bart. How's it going today, my friend? friend? friend? >> Uh, I'm doing very well. Um, for the >> Uh, I'm doing very well. Um, for the >> Uh, I'm doing very well. Um, for the sake of full disclosure, um, I have been sake of full disclosure, um, I have been sake of full disclosure, um, I have been on about four or five straight hours of on about four or five straight hours of on about four or five straight hours of Zoom calls before you and I [laughter] Zoom calls before you and I [laughter] Zoom calls before you and I [laughter] got in here to record this and you were got in here to record this and you were got in here to record this and you were just coming off of a little mini just coming off of a little mini just coming off of a little mini vacation. So, words may come easily or vacation. So, words may come easily or vacation. So, words may come easily or words may not come easily. But hey, here words may not come easily. But hey, here words may not come easily. But hey, here we are uh once again uh recording we are uh once again uh recording we are uh once again uh recording another podcast episode because we're we another podcast episode because we're we another podcast episode because we're we we are committed to helping churches we are committed to helping churches we are committed to helping churches grow uh by leveraging digital marketing grow uh by leveraging digital marketing grow uh by leveraging digital marketing and effective communications. Uh we and effective communications. Uh we and effective communications. Uh we spend a lot of time doing that all day spend a lot of time doing that all day spend a lot of time doing that all day every day. And so for those of you who every day. And so for those of you who every day. And so for those of you who have joined us maybe here for the very have joined us maybe here for the very have joined us maybe here for the very first time, thanks for tuning in. We've first time, thanks for tuning in. We've first time, thanks for tuning in. We've been producing this podcast since the been producing this podcast since the been producing this podcast since the year of 2020, the year of our Lord 2020.

year of 2020, the year of our Lord 2020. year of 2020, the year of our Lord 2020. Um, and uh, you know, we we did really Um, and uh, you know, we we did really Um, and uh, you know, we we did really well in those first few years, releasing well in those first few years, releasing well in those first few years, releasing almost a podcast every single week. almost a podcast every single week. almost a podcast every single week. We've we've we've slowed down a little We've we've we've slowed down a little We've we've we've slowed down a little bit, but we are on the horse and we're bit, but we are on the horse and we're bit, but we are on the horse and we're really excited to share a few things. really excited to share a few things. really excited to share a few things. Jason, if you're watching on our YouTube Jason, if you're watching on our YouTube Jason, if you're watching on our YouTube channel, uh, Jason's going to hold channel, uh, Jason's going to hold channel, uh, Jason's going to hold something up for you and, uh, give you a something up for you and, uh, give you a something up for you and, uh, give you a little look at something. Uh, yes. Well, little look at something. Uh, yes. Well, little look at something. Uh, yes. Well, I've got one, too. I'll hold mine up. Uh I've got one, too. I'll hold mine up. Uh I've got one, too. I'll hold mine up. Uh Jason and I have just published a book Jason and I have just published a book Jason and I have just published a book together uh called reaching the one a together uh called reaching the one a together uh called reaching the one a guide to digital outreach and evangelism guide to digital outreach and evangelism guide to digital outreach and evangelism for the local church. Uh we have taken for the local church. Uh we have taken for the local church. Uh we have taken many many many of the learnings uh that many many many of the learnings uh that many many many of the learnings uh that we have acquired in working with we have acquired in working with we have acquired in working with churches and a lot of people uh have churches and a lot of people uh have churches and a lot of people uh have taught us many things on this podcast. I taught us many things on this podcast. I taught us many things on this podcast. I guess and we have synthesized a book uh guess and we have synthesized a book uh guess and we have synthesized a book uh that we hope uh will help you as a that we hope uh will help you as a that we hope uh will help you as a church leadership team, as a church leadership team, as a church leadership team, as a communications director, uh whatever communications director, uh whatever communications director, uh whatever seat you sit in in the church. Um we seat you sit in in the church. Um we seat you sit in in the church. Um we hope that it will help you reach more hope that it will help you reach more hope that it will help you reach more people for Jesus. Um Amen. people for Jesus. Um Amen. people for Jesus. Um Amen. >> You have anything to add there, Jason?

>> You have anything to add there, Jason? >> You have anything to add there, Jason? >> No, I I uh I love uh the the focus of >> No, I I uh I love uh the the focus of >> No, I I uh I love uh the the focus of this book, and that's really the what this book, and that's really the what this book, and that's really the what the focus of the local church should be the focus of the local church should be the focus of the local church should be is to love God and love people. And we is to love God and love people. And we is to love God and love people. And we love people in many many different ways. love people in many many different ways. love people in many many different ways. We serve our community. We serve the the We serve our community. We serve the the We serve our community. We serve the the needy. We serve each other. So our job needy. We serve each other. So our job needy. We serve each other. So our job is to love God, love people, and go and is to love God, love people, and go and is to love God, love people, and go and make disciples. Pretty easy to make disciples. Pretty easy to make disciples. Pretty easy to understand, somewhat hard to do because understand, somewhat hard to do because understand, somewhat hard to do because we kind of get lost in things, don't we, we kind of get lost in things, don't we, we kind of get lost in things, don't we, big C church. big C church. big C church. >> So we really wanted to simplify. Keep >> So we really wanted to simplify. Keep >> So we really wanted to simplify. Keep the main thing the main thing. Love God, the main thing the main thing. Love God, the main thing the main thing. Love God, love people, and make disciples. So, love people, and make disciples. So, love people, and make disciples. So, this book really does a a good job of uh this book really does a a good job of uh this book really does a a good job of uh sort of steering you towards sort of steering you towards sort of steering you towards proven ways and methods on how you can proven ways and methods on how you can proven ways and methods on how you can accomplish that. And no doubt if you accomplish that. And no doubt if you accomplish that. And no doubt if you follow what Bart and I talk about, follow what Bart and I talk about, follow what Bart and I talk about, you're you're be like, "Oh, I've heard you're you're be like, "Oh, I've heard you're you're be like, "Oh, I've heard them say that." Yep. Because it's all in them say that." Yep. Because it's all in them say that." Yep. Because it's all in the book. And uh yeah, get get yourself the book. And uh yeah, get get yourself the book. And uh yeah, get get yourself a get yourself a copy. a get yourself a copy. a get yourself a copy. >> Yeah. If if you happen to have been to >> Yeah. If if you happen to have been to >> Yeah. If if you happen to have been to any of our live road show events with any of our live road show events with any of our live road show events with Jason and myself or our colleague Zach, Jason and myself or our colleague Zach, Jason and myself or our colleague Zach, um a lot of the stuff that we do at the um a lot of the stuff that we do at the um a lot of the stuff that we do at the road shows as far as the outreach piece road shows as far as the outreach piece road shows as far as the outreach piece is included in the in the book. For many is included in the in the book. For many is included in the in the book. For many of you, maybe you don't live anywhere of you, maybe you don't live anywhere of you, maybe you don't live anywhere near where you can attend a road show.

near where you can attend a road show. near where you can attend a road show. Pick up a copy of the book. It's Pick up a copy of the book. It's Pick up a copy of the book. It's available at Amazon. We'll link to it in available at Amazon. We'll link to it in available at Amazon. We'll link to it in the show notes of this episode. But hey, the show notes of this episode. But hey, the show notes of this episode. But hey, I'm going to give another caveat here. I'm going to give another caveat here. I'm going to give another caveat here. If you are planning to attend the church If you are planning to attend the church If you are planning to attend the church communications conference in September, communications conference in September, communications conference in September, don't buy a book because we're going to don't buy a book because we're going to don't buy a book because we're going to give you a copy of the book. And for give you a copy of the book. And for give you a copy of the book. And for those of you who have not yet made a those of you who have not yet made a those of you who have not yet made a commitment to attend the church commitment to attend the church commitment to attend the church communications conference in September, communications conference in September, communications conference in September, well, here's one more reason why you well, here's one more reason why you well, here's one more reason why you should attend the conference. You can should attend the conference. You can should attend the conference. You can spend all the money you need to fly to spend all the money you need to fly to spend all the money you need to fly to Kansas City and spend a few days with Kansas City and spend a few days with Kansas City and spend a few days with us. We'll give you a copy of the book. us. We'll give you a copy of the book. us. We'll give you a copy of the book. Uh we're really excited about this. Uh we're really excited about this. Uh we're really excited about this. We're excited on the conference. Jason, We're excited on the conference. Jason, We're excited on the conference. Jason, share a little bit more about the share a little bit more about the share a little bit more about the conference and what's happening in conference and what's happening in conference and what's happening in September. September. September. >> Oh, I'm really pumped about it. We have >> Oh, I'm really pumped about it. We have >> Oh, I'm really pumped about it. We have are going to be together in Kansas City are going to be together in Kansas City are going to be together in Kansas City at Abundant Life Church in Kansas City at Abundant Life Church in Kansas City at Abundant Life Church in Kansas City September 23rd, 24th, 25th. So, the a September 23rd, 24th, 25th. So, the a September 23rd, 24th, 25th. So, the a like the early evening of September like the early evening of September like the early evening of September 23rd, all day on the 24th, and the 23rd, all day on the 24th, and the 23rd, all day on the 24th, and the morning of the 25th. So, it gives you morning of the 25th. So, it gives you morning of the 25th. So, it gives you time to kind of fly in on a Wednesday, time to kind of fly in on a Wednesday, time to kind of fly in on a Wednesday, fly it back out on a Friday. But, I'll fly it back out on a Friday. But, I'll fly it back out on a Friday. But, I'll tell you, our time together is going to tell you, our time together is going to tell you, our time together is going to be really fruitful. Um, I'm excited be really fruitful. Um, I'm excited be really fruitful. Um, I'm excited about um our our keynote speakers, but about um our our keynote speakers, but about um our our keynote speakers, but I'm also really excited about our I'm also really excited about our I'm also really excited about our breakouts this year. We we've come up breakouts this year. We we've come up breakouts this year. We we've come up with a little different strategy and with a little different strategy and with a little different strategy and I've heard from you guys. So, this is a I've heard from you guys. So, this is a I've heard from you guys. So, this is a this is a result of getting feedback as this is a result of getting feedback as this is a result of getting feedback as we pivoted the breakouts. There's going we pivoted the breakouts. There's going we pivoted the breakouts. There's going to be six breakouts and we're going to to be six breakouts and we're going to to be six breakouts and we're going to break them out into the size of church break them out into the size of church break them out into the size of church that you are working in. And so, all the that you are working in. And so, all the that you are working in. And so, all the colleagues around you in your breakout colleagues around you in your breakout colleagues around you in your breakout are going to be of similar size of your are going to be of similar size of your are going to be of similar size of your church. So that's the that's one cool

church. So that's the that's one cool church. So that's the that's one cool thing because you want to rub shoulders thing because you want to rub shoulders thing because you want to rub shoulders with other people that are in the same with other people that are in the same with other people that are in the same seat that you are with another seat that you are with another seat that you are with another differentized church like you that's the differentized church like you that's the differentized church like you that's the people you want to build relationships people you want to build relationships people you want to build relationships with. Then the second part of that is with. Then the second part of that is with. Then the second part of that is we've we're tailoring all the content in we've we're tailoring all the content in we've we're tailoring all the content in the breakouts to your size of church. So the breakouts to your size of church. So the breakouts to your size of church. So we have heard many of you for different we have heard many of you for different we have heard many of you for different sizes want to go deeper into different sizes want to go deeper into different sizes want to go deeper into different topics. That's what we're going to do in topics. That's what we're going to do in topics. That's what we're going to do in the breakout. So it's going to be really the breakout. So it's going to be really the breakout. So it's going to be really relevant to you on the on the size of relevant to you on the on the size of relevant to you on the on the size of the church you have. And um yeah, that's the church you have. And um yeah, that's the church you have. And um yeah, that's I'm I'm pumped about it. Uh Abundant I'm I'm pumped about it. Uh Abundant I'm I'm pumped about it. Uh Abundant Life is a great church. It's in uh the Life is a great church. It's in uh the Life is a great church. It's in uh the Johnson County uh campus. They're Johnson County uh campus. They're Johnson County uh campus. They're multiacampus church and they have a multiacampus church and they have a multiacampus church and they have a great facility. We're we're pumped about great facility. We're we're pumped about great facility. We're we're pumped about it. And our keynote speakers in addition it. And our keynote speakers in addition it. And our keynote speakers in addition to you, Mr. Hamrock, are Phil Cook and to you, Mr. Hamrock, are Phil Cook and to you, Mr. Hamrock, are Phil Cook and Sally Gillery, both of whom have been on Sally Gillery, both of whom have been on Sally Gillery, both of whom have been on our podcast. Sally Sally only once. our podcast. Sally Sally only once. our podcast. Sally Sally only once. Phil, I don't know, four or five times. Phil, I don't know, four or five times. Phil, I don't know, four or five times. Uh yeah, Phil Phil's a good friend and Uh yeah, Phil Phil's a good friend and Uh yeah, Phil Phil's a good friend and uh uh we're really excited about having uh uh we're really excited about having uh uh we're really excited about having both of them uh as keynote speakers. both of them uh as keynote speakers. both of them uh as keynote speakers. It's going to be a great time and you It's going to be a great time and you It's going to be a great time and you know, one of the biggest benefits about know, one of the biggest benefits about know, one of the biggest benefits about tending attending either a road show or tending attending either a road show or tending attending either a road show or the church communications conference the church communications conference the church communications conference really is the connections that you will really is the connections that you will really is the connections that you will make with other people who are in the make with other people who are in the make with other people who are in the trenches of of church communications.

trenches of of church communications. trenches of of church communications. >> Our topic today um on this episode is uh >> Our topic today um on this episode is uh >> Our topic today um on this episode is uh is comm's director burnout. Um, you is comm's director burnout. Um, you is comm's director burnout. Um, you know, there's a lot to be said about know, there's a lot to be said about know, there's a lot to be said about burnout in ministry, and I have my own burnout in ministry, and I have my own burnout in ministry, and I have my own burnout story. Uh, I was a worship burnout story. Uh, I was a worship burnout story. Uh, I was a worship pastor. I wasn't a comms director, but I pastor. I wasn't a comms director, but I pastor. I wasn't a comms director, but I had a season. I didn't realize at the had a season. I didn't realize at the had a season. I didn't realize at the time, this was back in the the early to time, this was back in the the early to time, this was back in the the early to mid 2000s. mid 2000s. mid 2000s. >> People weren't talking about ministry >> People weren't talking about ministry >> People weren't talking about ministry burnout back then as much as they are burnout back then as much as they are burnout back then as much as they are today. And I I went through a real today. And I I went through a real today. And I I went through a real significant sort of mental health I'll significant sort of mental health I'll significant sort of mental health I'll just call a pit for a season. I didn't just call a pit for a season. I didn't just call a pit for a season. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know how to know what it was. I didn't know how to know what it was. I didn't know how to label it. I I didn't even it it wasn't label it. I I didn't even it it wasn't label it. I I didn't even it it wasn't until I was actually years past it that until I was actually years past it that until I was actually years past it that I realized what it was. But in ministry, I realized what it was. But in ministry, I realized what it was. But in ministry, this is a common thing because we we this is a common thing because we we this is a common thing because we we drive ourselves so hard uh we set such drive ourselves so hard uh we set such drive ourselves so hard uh we set such high expectations for ourselves. We want high expectations for ourselves. We want high expectations for ourselves. We want to serve Jesus so well. And those of us to serve Jesus so well. And those of us to serve Jesus so well. And those of us who are involved in any kind of ministry who are involved in any kind of ministry who are involved in any kind of ministry that's related to the weekend worship that's related to the weekend worship that's related to the weekend worship services, whether that is communications services, whether that is communications services, whether that is communications or preaching or worship or what have or preaching or worship or what have or preaching or worship or what have you, there's always a Sunday coming and you, there's always a Sunday coming and you, there's always a Sunday coming and you live with that pressure. You live you live with that pressure. You live you live with that pressure. You live with that uh that just intense um with that uh that just intense um with that uh that just intense um constant routine and rhythm and constant routine and rhythm and constant routine and rhythm and schedule. And so today, Jason and I want schedule. And so today, Jason and I want schedule. And so today, Jason and I want to talk we're going to talk few through to talk we're going to talk few through to talk we're going to talk few through a few things that we hope may be an a few things that we hope may be an a few things that we hope may be an encouragement to you in your encouragement to you in your encouragement to you in your communications role. Maybe that's only communications role. Maybe that's only communications role. Maybe that's only part of the role that you serve in your part of the role that you serve in your part of the role that you serve in your church, which is also another reason why church, which is also another reason why church, which is also another reason why you may experience burnout because you you may experience burnout because you you may experience burnout because you might be wearing 11 hats. And if you're might be wearing 11 hats. And if you're might be wearing 11 hats. And if you're wearing 11 hats, uh that can definitely

wearing 11 hats, uh that can definitely wearing 11 hats, uh that can definitely um it can definitely uh affect you uh um it can definitely uh affect you uh um it can definitely uh affect you uh your mental health, your emotional your mental health, your emotional your mental health, your emotional health, your spiritual health, your health, your spiritual health, your health, your spiritual health, your family, your performance at work, all family, your performance at work, all family, your performance at work, all kinds of things. We're not uh doctors. kinds of things. We're not uh doctors. kinds of things. We're not uh doctors. Uh we're just people who've been in Uh we're just people who've been in Uh we're just people who've been in ministry and have gone really really ministry and have gone really really ministry and have gone really really hard at it. Um and we want to be an hard at it. Um and we want to be an hard at it. Um and we want to be an advocate for those of you who are advocate for those of you who are advocate for those of you who are listening to this episode. So, um, listening to this episode. So, um, listening to this episode. So, um, here's a key point in today's episode, here's a key point in today's episode, here's a key point in today's episode, and then I'm going to just I'm going to and then I'm going to just I'm going to and then I'm going to just I'm going to start asking you questions, Jason, start asking you questions, Jason, start asking you questions, Jason, because I I've not sat in the comm's because I I've not sat in the comm's because I I've not sat in the comm's director role uniquely like you have, director role uniquely like you have, director role uniquely like you have, but here's here's a a statement that I but here's here's a a statement that I but here's here's a a statement that I believe is true that sort of sets the believe is true that sort of sets the believe is true that sort of sets the stage for what is often burnout, and stage for what is often burnout, and stage for what is often burnout, and that is that the communications director that is that the communications director that is that the communications director is often the only person in the building is often the only person in the building is often the only person in the building who sees every single deadline, every who sees every single deadline, every who sees every single deadline, every single request, and every single gap in single request, and every single gap in single request, and every single gap in systems and processes like the I I just systems and processes like the I I just systems and processes like the I I just had a call with a church a few minutes had a call with a church a few minutes had a call with a church a few minutes ago today. Uh and the comm's director in ago today. Uh and the comm's director in ago today. Uh and the comm's director in that church was telling me about some that church was telling me about some that church was telling me about some systems and things being broken in their systems and things being broken in their systems and things being broken in their church and he's really the only person church and he's really the only person church and he's really the only person who sees a lot of the breakdown in a lot who sees a lot of the breakdown in a lot who sees a lot of the breakdown in a lot of their systems, right? And so you wear of their systems, right? And so you wear of their systems, right? And so you wear a lot of pressure there. So Jason, why a lot of pressure there. So Jason, why a lot of pressure there. So Jason, why don't we talk a little bit about about don't we talk a little bit about about don't we talk a little bit about about some specific things? Um let's talk a some specific things? Um let's talk a some specific things? Um let's talk a little bit first about um what scope little bit first about um what scope little bit first about um what scope creep is. You you talk about this a lot.

creep is. You you talk about this a lot. creep is. You you talk about this a lot. Uh scope creep uh the volume of work Uh scope creep uh the volume of work Uh scope creep uh the volume of work just that one more thing culture that just that one more thing culture that just that one more thing culture that happens in churches. We got one more happens in churches. We got one more happens in churches. We got one more thing just that just one more thing. U thing just that just one more thing. U thing just that just one more thing. U speak to that a little bit. speak to that a little bit. speak to that a little bit. >> Well I mean I didn't really have >> Well I mean I didn't really have >> Well I mean I didn't really have burnout. I had fatigue burnout. I had fatigue burnout. I had fatigue and it just because this thing is like and it just because this thing is like and it just because this thing is like cyclical, right? It it we do the same cyclical, right? It it we do the same cyclical, right? It it we do the same stuff kind of over and over and over stuff kind of over and over and over stuff kind of over and over and over again and it changes. Sermon series again and it changes. Sermon series again and it changes. Sermon series change and event will change, but it's change and event will change, but it's change and event will change, but it's the season after season after season. the season after season after season. the season after season after season. And um you're absolutely right where I And um you're absolutely right where I And um you're absolutely right where I saw I saw everything. I saw the I saw saw I saw everything. I saw the I saw saw I saw everything. I saw the I saw the highs and the lows, but I saw the the highs and the lows, but I saw the the highs and the lows, but I saw the gaps that we that we had. And I think gaps that we that we had. And I think gaps that we that we had. And I think one of the things that um as it listen one of the things that um as it listen one of the things that um as it listen it doesn't matter if you're a comm's it doesn't matter if you're a comm's it doesn't matter if you're a comm's team of one or you lead a comm's team of team of one or you lead a comm's team of team of one or you lead a comm's team of eight or nine people you're still eight or nine people you're still eight or nine people you're still vulnerable vulnerable vulnerable to this this problem where there you see to this this problem where there you see to this this problem where there you see the holes in the systems and um I think the holes in the systems and um I think the holes in the systems and um I think the the hardest part for a comm's the the hardest part for a comm's the the hardest part for a comm's director and it kind of depends on what director and it kind of depends on what director and it kind of depends on what level of leadership do you fall in are level of leadership do you fall in are level of leadership do you fall in are you are you at the top with the level of you are you at the top with the level of you are you at the top with the level of leaders or are you down low and you leaders or are you down low and you leaders or are you down low and you serve serve an executive pastor who serve serve an executive pastor who serve serve an executive pastor who never lets you in the, you know, the never lets you in the, you know, the never lets you in the, you know, the room where they're making big decisions, room where they're making big decisions, room where they're making big decisions, right? It that matters. Um, I'm always right? It that matters. Um, I'm always right? It that matters. Um, I'm always advocating for you to be at that table advocating for you to be at that table advocating for you to be at that table because you need to hear what all the because you need to hear what all the because you need to hear what all the leadership is saying about what's going leadership is saying about what's going leadership is saying about what's going on in and out of the church. But, uh, I on in and out of the church. But, uh, I on in and out of the church. But, uh, I think it's a it's a good topic think it's a it's a good topic think it's a it's a good topic conversation because if you don't if you

conversation because if you don't if you conversation because if you don't if you don't focus on making changes, you will don't focus on making changes, you will don't focus on making changes, you will burn out. I I Bart you I I talk to so burn out. I I Bart you I I talk to so burn out. I I Bart you I I talk to so many comm directors where I feel like many comm directors where I feel like many comm directors where I feel like >> I I'm a therapist >> I I'm a therapist >> I I'm a therapist >> and I'm helping them u I'm answering >> and I'm helping them u I'm answering >> and I'm helping them u I'm answering their questions or I'm giving them their questions or I'm giving them their questions or I'm giving them advice and it always comes back to hard advice and it always comes back to hard advice and it always comes back to hard conversations that you need to have conversations that you need to have conversations that you need to have sometimes hard conversations and I'll sometimes hard conversations and I'll sometimes hard conversations and I'll tell you what will work against you is tell you what will work against you is tell you what will work against you is when you're a hard worker. when you're a hard worker. when you're a hard worker. What will work against you is when What will work against you is when What will work against you is when you're a hard worker. What I mean by you're a hard worker. What I mean by you're a hard worker. What I mean by that is when you're a hard worker they that is when you're a hard worker they that is when you're a hard worker they can count on you. they're gonna give you can count on you. they're gonna give you can count on you. they're gonna give you more uh maybe not more salary, but more more uh maybe not more salary, but more more uh maybe not more salary, but more responsibility, more hats to wear. I'm a responsibility, more hats to wear. I'm a responsibility, more hats to wear. I'm a victim of that. I always wanted to work victim of that. I always wanted to work victim of that. I always wanted to work hard. I wanted to prove myself. I wanted hard. I wanted to prove myself. I wanted hard. I wanted to prove myself. I wanted to win for the team. I I I it was all to win for the team. I I I it was all to win for the team. I I I it was all about pointing people to Jesus and about pointing people to Jesus and about pointing people to Jesus and helping make him famous. And as I would helping make him famous. And as I would helping make him famous. And as I would do that, I found myself in more. we're do that, I found myself in more. we're do that, I found myself in more. we're doing more and we're doing more and my doing more and we're doing more and my doing more and we're doing more and my budgets are growing and my staff is budgets are growing and my staff is budgets are growing and my staff is growing and my responsibilities are growing and my responsibilities are growing and my responsibilities are growing and I didn't I didn't manage growing and I didn't I didn't manage growing and I didn't I didn't manage that very well because first of all I I that very well because first of all I I that very well because first of all I I didn't even there was no blueprint.

didn't even there was no blueprint. didn't even there was no blueprint. We were finding our way through it and I We were finding our way through it and I We were finding our way through it and I found myself fatigued to the point where found myself fatigued to the point where found myself fatigued to the point where I'm like I'm not healthy and um I've got I'm like I'm not healthy and um I've got I'm like I'm not healthy and um I've got a little sticky note on my on my a little sticky note on my on my a little sticky note on my on my monitor. part knows what I'm going to monitor. part knows what I'm going to monitor. part knows what I'm going to say. And it says, "What you're not say. And it says, "What you're not say. And it says, "What you're not changing, changing, changing, you're choosing. you're choosing. you're choosing. What you're not changing, you're What you're not changing, you're What you're not changing, you're choosing. If you're choosing to stay choosing. If you're choosing to stay choosing. If you're choosing to stay burnt out, if you're choosing the burnt out, if you're choosing the burnt out, if you're choosing the systems you're in, that's on you." And systems you're in, that's on you." And systems you're in, that's on you." And so, uh, yeah, I I think there's a lot of so, uh, yeah, I I think there's a lot of so, uh, yeah, I I think there's a lot of a a good that can come from this a a good that can come from this a a good that can come from this conversation because there's a lot of conversation because there's a lot of conversation because there's a lot of people right now listening going, "Yeah, people right now listening going, "Yeah, people right now listening going, "Yeah, I can identify with that." I can identify with that." I can identify with that." Let let's expand on on just one one Let let's expand on on just one one Let let's expand on on just one one concept there and that is the um the concept there and that is the um the concept there and that is the um the propensity for um the bucket to be full propensity for um the bucket to be full propensity for um the bucket to be full and more and more to be put in the and more and more to be put in the and more and more to be put in the bucket. Right? So you you just you got bucket. Right? So you you just you got bucket. Right? So you you just you got an overflowing task list uh more things an overflowing task list uh more things an overflowing task list uh more things that you can get done. Um, that you can get done. Um, that you can get done. Um, let's talk about setting boundaries or let's talk about setting boundaries or let's talk about setting boundaries or permission to say no or permission to permission to say no or permission to permission to say no or permission to say I I don't have I can't make that a say I I don't have I can't make that a say I I don't have I can't make that a priority. Right? I think that's one of priority. Right? I think that's one of priority. Right? I think that's one of the the the challenges for me. And I I the the the challenges for me. And I I the the the challenges for me. And I I had somebody share this with me in had somebody share this with me in had somebody share this with me in ministry a long time ago, which was if ministry a long time ago, which was if ministry a long time ago, which was if if I'm asked to do something that's if I'm asked to do something that's if I'm asked to do something that's really just filling my plate with more really just filling my plate with more really just filling my plate with more and more stuff, is to probably go back and more stuff, is to probably go back and more stuff, is to probably go back and ask the question about um just just and ask the question about um just just and ask the question about um just just let's let's look at everything that I let's let's look at everything that I let's let's look at everything that I have on my plate right now. And if you have on my plate right now. And if you have on my plate right now. And if you want me to accomplish this thing that

want me to accomplish this thing that want me to accomplish this thing that you're now giving me, can you point at you're now giving me, can you point at you're now giving me, can you point at the things that I have on my list that the things that I have on my list that the things that I have on my list that need to move to the back burner because need to move to the back burner because need to move to the back burner because I can't get them all done and I can't I can't get them all done and I can't I can't get them all done and I can't get them all done meeting the deadlines get them all done meeting the deadlines get them all done meeting the deadlines as well as you're expecting me or we're as well as you're expecting me or we're as well as you're expecting me or we're all expecting those things to get done, all expecting those things to get done, all expecting those things to get done, right? With I can't do it as well. The right? With I can't do it as well. The right? With I can't do it as well. The quality is going to suffer. Um, and you quality is going to suffer. Um, and you quality is going to suffer. Um, and you know, and and so, uh, how would you how know, and and so, uh, how would you how know, and and so, uh, how would you how would you I mean, have you ever been in would you I mean, have you ever been in would you I mean, have you ever been in a situation like that where you're like, a situation like that where you're like, a situation like that where you're like, "Okay, I've got I've got I've got eight "Okay, I've got I've got I've got eight "Okay, I've got I've got I've got eight hours in the day. I've got 10 hours hours in the day. I've got 10 hours hours in the day. I've got 10 hours worth of work. worth of work. worth of work. >> What What am I going to give up?" Saying >> What What am I going to give up?" Saying >> What What am I going to give up?" Saying yes to one thing is saying no to yes to one thing is saying no to yes to one thing is saying no to something else, right? It it almost has something else, right? It it almost has something else, right? It it almost has to be. So, how how do you navigate those to be. So, how how do you navigate those to be. So, how how do you navigate those boundary conversations? boundary conversations? boundary conversations? >> Um, man, that's such a I love I love the >> Um, man, that's such a I love I love the >> Um, man, that's such a I love I love the English language. No is a complete English language. No is a complete English language. No is a complete sentence. sentence. sentence. >> That's hard, right? because we have >> That's hard, right? because we have >> That's hard, right? because we have friends that we serve alongside our friends that we serve alongside our friends that we serve alongside our friends and we just don't say no to them friends and we just don't say no to them friends and we just don't say no to them and walk away. and walk away. and walk away. >> But I do think at the road show I teach >> But I do think at the road show I teach >> But I do think at the road show I teach uh tears, you know, it's it's tears. Not uh tears, you know, it's it's tears. Not uh tears, you know, it's it's tears. Not everything is equal. Not everything has everything is equal. Not everything has everything is equal. Not everything has the same value in our roles, right? If the same value in our roles, right? If the same value in our roles, right? If you get a ministry coming, you go, I you get a ministry coming, you go, I you get a ministry coming, you go, I need this done and you're going, how do need this done and you're going, how do need this done and you're going, how do I Yeah, but my lead pastor's coming in I Yeah, but my lead pastor's coming in I Yeah, but my lead pastor's coming in here telling me they want this, you here telling me they want this, you here telling me they want this, you know, what do I do? Well, you go to the know, what do I do? Well, you go to the know, what do I do? Well, you go to the leap. You have tears. You you you focus.

leap. You have tears. You you you focus. leap. You have tears. You you you focus. you you figure that out who's who's at you you figure that out who's who's at you you figure that out who's who's at the top of the list to the bottom of the the top of the list to the bottom of the the top of the list to the bottom of the list. That's okay to do that. It doesn't list. That's okay to do that. It doesn't list. That's okay to do that. It doesn't mean they're not important. It just mean they're not important. It just mean they're not important. It just allows you to have priority on who allows you to have priority on who allows you to have priority on who you're serving first, second, third, you're serving first, second, third, you're serving first, second, third, fourth. Your question isn't to your fourth. Your question isn't to your fourth. Your question isn't to your question isn't, well, how big of an question isn't, well, how big of an question isn't, well, how big of an impact is this going to make? Or um this impact is this going to make? Or um this impact is this going to make? Or um this is this really needed. Your question is this really needed. Your question is this really needed. Your question should be, okay, if if I'm gonna move should be, okay, if if I'm gonna move should be, okay, if if I'm gonna move the if I'm gonna do this. Um, and you the if I'm gonna do this. Um, and you the if I'm gonna do this. Um, and you guys think I should be doing this. Hey, guys think I should be doing this. Hey, guys think I should be doing this. Hey, boss, I I you want me to do this, I'm boss, I I you want me to do this, I'm boss, I I you want me to do this, I'm not going to question how much of the not going to question how much of the not going to question how much of the needle it moves. I'm going to question needle it moves. I'm going to question needle it moves. I'm going to question how do I fit this in, okay? Because you how do I fit this in, okay? Because you how do I fit this in, okay? Because you have you've come down and said, "Hey, we have you've come down and said, "Hey, we have you've come down and said, "Hey, we really want you to do this whatever really want you to do this whatever really want you to do this whatever project is." And you kind of look at project is." And you kind of look at project is." And you kind of look at that and go, "I just can't see how that and go, "I just can't see how that and go, "I just can't see how that's really relevant." Well, it could that's really relevant." Well, it could that's really relevant." Well, it could be really really relevant. I mean, I be really really relevant. I mean, I be really really relevant. I mean, I just off the top of my head, um, a lot just off the top of my head, um, a lot just off the top of my head, um, a lot of churches will have, they don't really of churches will have, they don't really of churches will have, they don't really know this, but they've got their, know this, but they've got their, know this, but they've got their, uh, their top level givers are sometimes uh, their top level givers are sometimes uh, their top level givers are sometimes grouped into a certain category. And grouped into a certain category. And grouped into a certain category. And this was for, and I had to I wanted to this was for, and I had to I wanted to this was for, and I had to I wanted to do things that were going to help our do things that were going to help our do things that were going to help our lead pastor reach and and help our our lead pastor reach and and help our our lead pastor reach and and help our our top level givers move along. Sometimes top level givers move along. Sometimes top level givers move along. Sometimes they're like legacy givers or whatever.

they're like legacy givers or whatever. they're like legacy givers or whatever. Small percentage of the room, right? But Small percentage of the room, right? But Small percentage of the room, right? But huge impact when you're when you're huge impact when you're when you're huge impact when you're when you're working with them as an example of working with them as an example of working with them as an example of going, hey, I'm not here to question going, hey, I'm not here to question going, hey, I'm not here to question what it is you want me to do. I'm here what it is you want me to do. I'm here what it is you want me to do. I'm here to question how am I going to get this to question how am I going to get this to question how am I going to get this all in with excellency. all in with excellency. all in with excellency. And so, um, it is important to And so, um, it is important to And so, um, it is important to understand first of all the tears, okay? understand first of all the tears, okay? understand first of all the tears, okay? But it's also second to understand But it's also second to understand But it's also second to understand you're not here to say no to people even you're not here to say no to people even you're not here to say no to people even though you want to say no to people, but though you want to say no to people, but though you want to say no to people, but you do want to give them a realistic you do want to give them a realistic you do want to give them a realistic expectation. expectation. expectation. And so we always joke around, right? We And so we always joke around, right? We And so we always joke around, right? We have the nifty knitts have the nifty knitts have the nifty knitts >> back in in our you know the nifty knitts >> back in in our you know the nifty knitts >> back in in our you know the nifty knitts are getting together and they're they're are getting together and they're they're are getting together and they're they're love on one another and they're knitting love on one another and they're knitting love on one another and they're knitting things and and you go yeah that's not a things and and you go yeah that's not a things and and you go yeah that's not a very big part of the room but it's very big part of the room but it's very big part of the room but it's important it's important to them just go important it's important to them just go important it's important to them just go ask them ask them ask them >> it's important to them but it doesn't >> it's important to them but it doesn't >> it's important to them but it doesn't mean they get the the same level as as mean they get the the same level as as mean they get the the same level as as everybody else and if you if you don't everybody else and if you if you don't everybody else and if you if you don't have the the margins and you can't have have the the margins and you can't have have the the margins and you can't have that conversation with your boss to say that conversation with your boss to say that conversation with your boss to say I need a pecking order of what I get I need a pecking order of what I get I need a pecking order of what I get done and how I get done. You need to done and how I get done. You need to done and how I get done. You need to help me move the puzzle pieces around help me move the puzzle pieces around help me move the puzzle pieces around because I can't I can't fit it all in.

because I can't I can't fit it all in. because I can't I can't fit it all in. That's not just being vulnerable. It's That's not just being vulnerable. It's That's not just being vulnerable. It's actually being wise. You are paid uh a actually being wise. You are paid uh a actually being wise. You are paid uh a fee, right? You're pay a salary that the fee, right? You're pay a salary that the fee, right? You're pay a salary that the people at the church give. And so, you people at the church give. And so, you people at the church give. And so, you got to be a good steward of that. And I got to be a good steward of that. And I got to be a good steward of that. And I don't think sometimes we think about don't think sometimes we think about don't think sometimes we think about that. You've got to be a good steward that. You've got to be a good steward that. You've got to be a good steward and and look to your leadership to help and and look to your leadership to help and and look to your leadership to help you steward that well. because you do you steward that well. because you do you steward that well. because you do have gifts and talents, but just because have gifts and talents, but just because have gifts and talents, but just because you're the youngest person doesn't mean you're the youngest person doesn't mean you're the youngest person doesn't mean you're the social media expert. I don't you're the social media expert. I don't you're the social media expert. I don't know much about social media, right? You know much about social media, right? You know much about social media, right? You could just I'm if you're in your, you could just I'm if you're in your, you could just I'm if you're in your, you know, late 20s or 30s, you're the comm know, late 20s or 30s, you're the comm know, late 20s or 30s, you're the comm director. You're supposed to be the director. You're supposed to be the director. You're supposed to be the expert. Well, maybe you are, maybe expert. Well, maybe you are, maybe expert. Well, maybe you are, maybe you're not. So, you need to have those you're not. So, you need to have those you're not. So, you need to have those conversations with your leadership to conversations with your leadership to conversations with your leadership to say, tell me how I'm going to move the say, tell me how I'm going to move the say, tell me how I'm going to move the pieces of the puzzle so this all fits pieces of the puzzle so this all fits pieces of the puzzle so this all fits together and I'm not burning out or together and I'm not burning out or together and I'm not burning out or getting fatigued. I need help. And uh getting fatigued. I need help. And uh getting fatigued. I need help. And uh those are just vulnerable conversations. those are just vulnerable conversations. those are just vulnerable conversations. >> Yeah, there's a couple of ways when you >> Yeah, there's a couple of ways when you >> Yeah, there's a couple of ways when you look at your workload. Uh a couple of look at your workload. Uh a couple of look at your workload. Uh a couple of ways that I would probably try to to try ways that I would probably try to to try ways that I would probably try to to try to evaluate things and I think part of to evaluate things and I think part of to evaluate things and I think part of it is definitely related to um the it is definitely related to um the it is definitely related to um the priorities of the of the senior priorities of the of the senior priorities of the of the senior leadership and the senior leadership leadership and the senior leadership leadership and the senior leadership team, right? So you definitely want to team, right? So you definitely want to team, right? So you definitely want to prioritize those things. And then prioritize those things. And then prioritize those things. And then secondly, it is sort of a a secondly, it is sort of a a secondly, it is sort of a a prioritization of things that are going prioritization of things that are going prioritization of things that are going to give the greatest ROI in ministry to give the greatest ROI in ministry to give the greatest ROI in ministry movement because not everything that movement because not everything that movement because not everything that you're spending your time on is equal.

you're spending your time on is equal. you're spending your time on is equal. You know, we have this conversation a You know, we have this conversation a You know, we have this conversation a lot. You you you bring up social media. lot. You you you bring up social media. lot. You you you bring up social media. Uh social media is important, but social Uh social media is important, but social Uh social media is important, but social media probably doesn't return on the media probably doesn't return on the media probably doesn't return on the investment to the degree to which a lot investment to the degree to which a lot investment to the degree to which a lot of churches might expect that it would. of churches might expect that it would. of churches might expect that it would. Um, and so that you know, we we we we Um, and so that you know, we we we we Um, and so that you know, we we we we categorize the audiences that you're categorize the audiences that you're categorize the audiences that you're trying to reach. Your ring one, your trying to reach. Your ring one, your trying to reach. Your ring one, your ring two, your ring three. Ring one are ring two, your ring three. Ring one are ring two, your ring three. Ring one are the people who are already part of your the people who are already part of your the people who are already part of your church. Ring two are people in your church. Ring two are people in your church. Ring two are people in your community who are actively looking for a community who are actively looking for a community who are actively looking for a church. Ring three are people who are in church. Ring three are people who are in church. Ring three are people who are in your community that are not actively your community that are not actively your community that are not actively looking for a church, but they're trying looking for a church, but they're trying looking for a church, but they're trying to solve a problem on the internet and to solve a problem on the internet and to solve a problem on the internet and your church may have ministry connection your church may have ministry connection your church may have ministry connection points that could help them solve those points that could help them solve those points that could help them solve those problems. Um, where you're going to feel problems. Um, where you're going to feel problems. Um, where you're going to feel the most pressure most of the time is the most pressure most of the time is the most pressure most of the time is ring one, right? the because the ring ring one, right? the because the ring ring one, right? the because the ring two and the ring three people don't two and the ring three people don't two and the ring three people don't complain to you on Tuesday or Thursday complain to you on Tuesday or Thursday complain to you on Tuesday or Thursday or you know one day of the week about or you know one day of the week about or you know one day of the week about not knowing what they're supposed to not knowing what they're supposed to not knowing what they're supposed to know when they're supposed to know it. know when they're supposed to know it. know when they're supposed to know it. Ring one does. And so yes, there is Ring one does. And so yes, there is Ring one does. And so yes, there is going to end up almost always being a going to end up almost always being a going to end up almost always being a prioritization for ring one that prioritization for ring one that prioritization for ring one that internal communication which is a big internal communication which is a big internal communication which is a big part of the reason that we wrote the part of the reason that we wrote the part of the reason that we wrote the book that we wrote, Reaching the One. Um book that we wrote, Reaching the One. Um book that we wrote, Reaching the One. Um because we want you to be able to because we want you to be able to because we want you to be able to equally prioritize the lost person who equally prioritize the lost person who equally prioritize the lost person who needs to be reached while also balancing needs to be reached while also balancing needs to be reached while also balancing the comm the internal communications the comm the internal communications the comm the internal communications that you have as a church which keeps that you have as a church which keeps that you have as a church which keeps your church on track and healthier and your church on track and healthier and your church on track and healthier and accomplishing its mission. Um let's talk accomplishing its mission. Um let's talk accomplishing its mission. Um let's talk a little bit Jason about uh just a a little bit Jason about uh just a a little bit Jason about uh just a strategy or some things that a person strategy or some things that a person strategy or some things that a person might do. Let let's I mean I would

might do. Let let's I mean I would might do. Let let's I mean I would you've got a let's say you've got a a you've got a let's say you've got a a you've got a let's say you've got a a pastor or executive pastor or a creative pastor or executive pastor or a creative pastor or executive pastor or a creative director or somebody that you in the director or somebody that you in the director or somebody that you in the comm's role you report to. Um you're comm's role you report to. Um you're comm's role you report to. Um you're having a challenge uh getting them to having a challenge uh getting them to having a challenge uh getting them to see that you need to set some sort of see that you need to set some sort of see that you need to set some sort of boundaries that you don't have this boundaries that you don't have this boundaries that you don't have this limitless uh bandwidth for the workload. limitless uh bandwidth for the workload. limitless uh bandwidth for the workload. Um I don't think most most pastors most Um I don't think most most pastors most Um I don't think most most pastors most leaders are not trying to overload their leaders are not trying to overload their leaders are not trying to overload their staff. They're they're not trying to staff. They're they're not trying to staff. They're they're not trying to overload their team. A lot of times they overload their team. A lot of times they overload their team. A lot of times they simply don't genu they genuinely don't simply don't genu they genuinely don't simply don't genu they genuinely don't understand what the work entails. They understand what the work entails. They understand what the work entails. They don't know when they give you this job don't know when they give you this job don't know when they give you this job to do exactly how much time it's going to do exactly how much time it's going to do exactly how much time it's going to take. Um and so what would you do if to take. Um and so what would you do if to take. Um and so what would you do if you were going to need to kind of report you were going to need to kind of report you were going to need to kind of report back to your leadership team on the way back to your leadership team on the way back to your leadership team on the way that you're utilizing your time? Like that you're utilizing your time? Like that you're utilizing your time? Like how would you how how would you document how would you how how would you document how would you how how would you document things? What kinds of things would you things? What kinds of things would you things? What kinds of things would you be measuring? What kind of, you know, be measuring? What kind of, you know, be measuring? What kind of, you know, feedback would you be giving to your feedback would you be giving to your feedback would you be giving to your leadership team in terms of the way that leadership team in terms of the way that leadership team in terms of the way that you're using your time? you're using your time? you're using your time? >> That's so good. Uh really, everybody >> That's so good. Uh really, everybody >> That's so good. Uh really, everybody needs to lean in and pay attention. Uh needs to lean in and pay attention. Uh needs to lean in and pay attention. Uh because I when I got going, I wasn't I because I when I got going, I wasn't I because I when I got going, I wasn't I wasn't documenting anything. I I we were wasn't documenting anything. I I we were wasn't documenting anything. I I we were just kind of doing the things and going just kind of doing the things and going just kind of doing the things and going along and I had no legs to stand on when along and I had no legs to stand on when along and I had no legs to stand on when somebody said, "Well, why can't you fit somebody said, "Well, why can't you fit somebody said, "Well, why can't you fit it in?"

it in?" it in?" Well, I don't know. I'm busy. What do Well, I don't know. I'm busy. What do Well, I don't know. I'm busy. What do you got? What what are you working on? you got? What what are you working on? you got? What what are you working on? Well, I can name a few things, but I Well, I can name a few things, but I Well, I can name a few things, but I holy cow, I couldn't name everything. holy cow, I couldn't name everything. holy cow, I couldn't name everything. So, I got smart. Again, I'm not the So, I got smart. Again, I'm not the So, I got smart. Again, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. So, I had to sharpest tool in the shed. So, I had to sharpest tool in the shed. So, I had to I had to fail a lot and I failed I had to fail a lot and I failed I had to fail a lot and I failed forward. I failed forward. So, we forward. I failed forward. So, we forward. I failed forward. So, we started documenting everything. And at started documenting everything. And at started documenting everything. And at the kind of the the peak of our team, the kind of the the peak of our team, the kind of the the peak of our team, which was the last like, you know, four which was the last like, you know, four which was the last like, you know, four or five years of when I was on uh as a or five years of when I was on uh as a or five years of when I was on uh as a com director, we had anywhere from 50 to com director, we had anywhere from 50 to com director, we had anywhere from 50 to 60 projects going on at any given time. 60 projects going on at any given time. 60 projects going on at any given time. That's we were a busy church 50 to 60 That's we were a busy church 50 to 60 That's we were a busy church 50 to 60 projects every single week and we would projects every single week and we would projects every single week and we would keep track of this on a spreadsheet and keep track of this on a spreadsheet and keep track of this on a spreadsheet and we would keep track of every project we would keep track of every project we would keep track of every project when it came in when it got completed when it came in when it got completed when it came in when it got completed and all the notes in between and I've and all the notes in between and I've and all the notes in between and I've also asked my team to track their hours also asked my team to track their hours also asked my team to track their hours including myself. pain in the butt. But including myself. pain in the butt. But including myself. pain in the butt. But I wanted to get an idea of how much time I wanted to get an idea of how much time I wanted to get an idea of how much time has this taken y'all? And that that was has this taken y'all? And that that was has this taken y'all? And that that was so important for me because I was able so important for me because I was able so important for me because I was able to tell my boss, to tell my boss, to tell my boss, here's the picture of what we're what here's the picture of what we're what here's the picture of what we're what we're growing into. I need your help we're growing into. I need your help we're growing into. I need your help either prioritizing or I need you guys either prioritizing or I need you guys either prioritizing or I need you guys to work with the ministries that they to work with the ministries that they to work with the ministries that they can't just give everything to us can't just give everything to us can't just give everything to us expecting overnight sick. We are not expecting overnight sick. We are not expecting overnight sick. We are not 247, 247, 247, you know, kinkos that can get it in 24 you know, kinkos that can get it in 24 you know, kinkos that can get it in 24 hours. We can't do that. We need to have

hours. We can't do that. We need to have hours. We can't do that. We need to have margin and bandwidth. And I couldn't do margin and bandwidth. And I couldn't do margin and bandwidth. And I couldn't do that until I proved to them we got a lot that until I proved to them we got a lot that until I proved to them we got a lot going on. And by the way, I think that going on. And by the way, I think that going on. And by the way, I think that was also a good thing to look in the was also a good thing to look in the was also a good thing to look in the mirror to say, am I am I really working mirror to say, am I am I really working mirror to say, am I am I really working a solid 40 hours, right? Am I really a solid 40 hours, right? Am I really a solid 40 hours, right? Am I really being strategic with my time? again being strategic with my time? again being strategic with my time? again being a good steward because I'm getting being a good steward because I'm getting being a good steward because I'm getting paid a wage. I got I don't just report paid a wage. I got I don't just report paid a wage. I got I don't just report to my my boss. I report to our to my my boss. I report to our to my my boss. I report to our congregation in a sense, right? I'm congregation in a sense, right? I'm congregation in a sense, right? I'm you're holding me responsible to do what you're holding me responsible to do what you're holding me responsible to do what I've been hired to do. So, um start I've been hired to do. So, um start I've been hired to do. So, um start tracking your time. You find some kind tracking your time. You find some kind tracking your time. You find some kind of a time management tool. It's really of a time management tool. It's really of a time management tool. It's really easy these days. It's not hard and and I easy these days. It's not hard and and I easy these days. It's not hard and and I don't think it has to be to the minute, don't think it has to be to the minute, don't think it has to be to the minute, but it's like today I worked on these but it's like today I worked on these but it's like today I worked on these six things, right? Um, and I had these six things, right? Um, and I had these six things, right? Um, and I had these three meetings and you know, you just three meetings and you know, you just three meetings and you know, you just start to lock in on what it is you and start to lock in on what it is you and start to lock in on what it is you and your team does. And I think that'll help your team does. And I think that'll help your team does. And I think that'll help you a lot when you go to leadership you a lot when you go to leadership you a lot when you go to leadership going, help me. I need some help. I going, help me. I need some help. I going, help me. I need some help. I never I do not want you to walk in there never I do not want you to walk in there never I do not want you to walk in there going, I need help without any kind of going, I need help without any kind of going, I need help without any kind of documentation to back up why you need documentation to back up why you need documentation to back up why you need help. I had to prove to my boss why I help. I had to prove to my boss why I help. I had to prove to my boss why I needed I wanted u specific budget needed I wanted u specific budget needed I wanted u specific budget increases for specific things that we increases for specific things that we increases for specific things that we wanted to do as a team. I didn't just wanted to do as a team. I didn't just wanted to do as a team. I didn't just walk into his office going, "Hey, can walk into his office going, "Hey, can walk into his office going, "Hey, can you bump up my uh thing by like 25%."

you bump up my uh thing by like 25%." you bump up my uh thing by like 25%." No, I had to paint the picture of why I No, I had to paint the picture of why I No, I had to paint the picture of why I want that much money and what I'm going want that much money and what I'm going want that much money and what I'm going to do with it and what I think the ROI to do with it and what I think the ROI to do with it and what I think the ROI is going to be on it. And so everything is going to be on it. And so everything is going to be on it. And so everything was documented and but guys, I did not was documented and but guys, I did not was documented and but guys, I did not do this from day one. I failed over and do this from day one. I failed over and do this from day one. I failed over and over again and finally figured out I over again and finally figured out I over again and finally figured out I better get my act together and to I wish better get my act together and to I wish better get my act together and to I wish I had Claude. Oh my goodness. [laughter] I had Claude. Oh my goodness. [laughter] I had Claude. Oh my goodness. [laughter] >> Oh my you >> Oh my you >> Oh my you Yeah. So uh there are there are all Yeah. So uh there are there are all Yeah. So uh there are there are all kinds of uh time recording time uh kinds of uh time recording time uh kinds of uh time recording time uh keeping project management tools. Um keeping project management tools. Um keeping project management tools. Um >> uh when I was doing more agency work, I >> uh when I was doing more agency work, I >> uh when I was doing more agency work, I used one called Harvest. I'm sure it's used one called Harvest. I'm sure it's used one called Harvest. I'm sure it's still out there. I think there's a free still out there. I think there's a free still out there. I think there's a free tier. You can add multiple projects into tier. You can add multiple projects into tier. You can add multiple projects into it and then while you're working on it and then while you're working on it and then while you're working on those projects, you just set the timer those projects, you just set the timer those projects, you just set the timer and when you're finished on that and when you're finished on that and when you're finished on that project, you stop and you know exactly project, you stop and you know exactly project, you stop and you know exactly how much time you're you're you're how much time you're you're you're how much time you're you're you're tracking on it week after week, month tracking on it week after week, month tracking on it week after week, month after month. In the business world, after month. In the business world, after month. In the business world, um there's a a terminology that's used. um there's a a terminology that's used. um there's a a terminology that's used. It's cost of goods sold. The cost of It's cost of goods sold. The cost of It's cost of goods sold. The cost of goods sold is what does it actually cost goods sold is what does it actually cost goods sold is what does it actually cost the company to make, market, and deliver the company to make, market, and deliver the company to make, market, and deliver this particular product? because based this particular product? because based this particular product? because based on what the cost of that product is, on what the cost of that product is, on what the cost of that product is, that's how much the company knows they that's how much the company knows they that's how much the company knows they need to market up in order to make money need to market up in order to make money need to market up in order to make money when they're selling it. Right? In the when they're selling it. Right? In the when they're selling it. Right? In the church space, especially in creative, I church space, especially in creative, I church space, especially in creative, I would say we we should have this thing would say we we should have this thing would say we we should have this thing called cost of project completed. So, called cost of project completed. So, called cost of project completed. So, here's an example. Um, your church is here's an example. Um, your church is here's an example. Um, your church is going to do mailers or let me break it going to do mailers or let me break it going to do mailers or let me break it down. your church is going to do. You're

down. your church is going to do. You're down. your church is going to do. You're going to run Facebook ads for your fall going to run Facebook ads for your fall going to run Facebook ads for your fall kickoff this fall. And you are kickoff this fall. And you are kickoff this fall. And you are responsible for the Facebook ads. And responsible for the Facebook ads. And responsible for the Facebook ads. And here's the conversation you're going to here's the conversation you're going to here's the conversation you're going to have is, "What's my budget?" And they're have is, "What's my budget?" And they're have is, "What's my budget?" And they're going to say, "You have $1,000 to spend going to say, "You have $1,000 to spend going to say, "You have $1,000 to spend on Facebook ads." And you're going to on Facebook ads." And you're going to on Facebook ads." And you're going to go, "Great. I've got $1,000." But that's go, "Great. I've got $1,000." But that's go, "Great. I've got $1,000." But that's not the true cost of the project not the true cost of the project not the true cost of the project completed because you need to factor in completed because you need to factor in completed because you need to factor in your time in designing the ads, building your time in designing the ads, building your time in designing the ads, building and monitoring the ad campaigns, and monitoring the ad campaigns, and monitoring the ad campaigns, building the landing page on the building the landing page on the building the landing page on the website. And so you've got all these website. And so you've got all these website. And so you've got all these other components to complete this other components to complete this other components to complete this project. It's not just having a $1,000 project. It's not just having a $1,000 project. It's not just having a $1,000 budget for the Facebook ads. It's $1,000 budget for the Facebook ads. It's $1,000 budget for the Facebook ads. It's $1,000 for the Facebook ads plus all the for the Facebook ads plus all the for the Facebook ads plus all the creative and the management work that creative and the management work that creative and the management work that you're putting into it. So, in the end, you're putting into it. So, in the end, you're putting into it. So, in the end, this thousand, you know, Facebook this thousand, you know, Facebook this thousand, you know, Facebook campaign is costing your church a lot campaign is costing your church a lot campaign is costing your church a lot more. If you're not tracking those more. If you're not tracking those more. If you're not tracking those things, then your executive pastor, your things, then your executive pastor, your things, then your executive pastor, your lead pastor, they really don't know, lead pastor, they really don't know, lead pastor, they really don't know, right? And and so when you start working right? And and so when you start working right? And and so when you start working on multiple projects, I mean, I can't on multiple projects, I mean, I can't on multiple projects, I mean, I can't tell you how many times, Jason, we tell you how many times, Jason, we tell you how many times, Jason, we talked to churches that that will build talked to churches that that will build talked to churches that that will build a website inhouse. You know, they're a website inhouse. You know, they're a website inhouse. You know, they're going to build a WordPress website or a going to build a WordPress website or a going to build a WordPress website or a Squarespace website and they're going to Squarespace website and they're going to Squarespace website and they're going to do it in house. They think it's cheaper do it in house. They think it's cheaper do it in house. They think it's cheaper and they think it's the cheaper route of and they think it's the cheaper route of and they think it's the cheaper route of doing it. But in reality, your salary doing it. But in reality, your salary doing it. But in reality, your salary that you're getting paid is costing your that you're getting paid is costing your that you're getting paid is costing your church because every minute you spend church because every minute you spend church because every minute you spend working on building and designing and working on building and designing and working on building and designing and and the creative and all the work on the and the creative and all the work on the and the creative and all the work on the website, the copywriting, pulling the website, the copywriting, pulling the website, the copywriting, pulling the images, optimizing images, optimizing images, optimizing images, optimizing images, optimizing images, optimizing videos, all the stuff that you're doing videos, all the stuff that you're doing videos, all the stuff that you're doing now optimizing for AI, assuming you're

now optimizing for AI, assuming you're now optimizing for AI, assuming you're doing that because you got to be able to doing that because you got to be able to doing that because you got to be able to do that. That's all time spent on a do that. That's all time spent on a do that. That's all time spent on a website that can't be spent doing all website that can't be spent doing all website that can't be spent doing all the other things and meeting all the the other things and meeting all the the other things and meeting all the other deadlines and deliverables that other deadlines and deliverables that other deadlines and deliverables that you have. So, you're just piling on. you have. So, you're just piling on. you have. So, you're just piling on. You're just piling on. So, I think, you You're just piling on. So, I think, you You're just piling on. So, I think, you know, tracking time is huge. Knowing know, tracking time is huge. Knowing know, tracking time is huge. Knowing exactly how much it's going to take, how exactly how much it's going to take, how exactly how much it's going to take, how much time it's going to take you to much time it's going to take you to much time it's going to take you to finish certain projects and complete finish certain projects and complete finish certain projects and complete different things is really important as different things is really important as different things is really important as you start talking to your leadership you start talking to your leadership you start talking to your leadership team about what you're actually spending team about what you're actually spending team about what you're actually spending your time and your energies on. your time and your energies on. your time and your energies on. >> Yeah. I mean, uh, and and you know, >> Yeah. I mean, uh, and and you know, >> Yeah. I mean, uh, and and you know, start with that weekly thing you do and start with that weekly thing you do and start with that weekly thing you do and and really like, um, a weekly email and really like, um, a weekly email and really like, um, a weekly email newsletter that goes out to the newsletter that goes out to the newsletter that goes out to the congregation. Okay. Oh, that's free, congregation. Okay. Oh, that's free, congregation. Okay. Oh, that's free, Jason. No, it's not because it took you Jason. No, it's not because it took you Jason. No, it's not because it took you time to have meetings. It took time to time to have meetings. It took time to time to have meetings. It took time to pull that together. You might have had pull that together. You might have had pull that together. You might have had to have, you know, the kids ministry to have, you know, the kids ministry to have, you know, the kids ministry write something up. That wasn't zero write something up. That wasn't zero write something up. That wasn't zero minutes. That probably took 30 minutes. minutes. That probably took 30 minutes. minutes. That probably took 30 minutes. you you start to realize how much time you you start to realize how much time you you start to realize how much time it takes to do something on a weekly it takes to do something on a weekly it takes to do something on a weekly basis. Now you can start to organize basis. Now you can start to organize basis. Now you can start to organize your thoughts on wow it takes us about your thoughts on wow it takes us about your thoughts on wow it takes us about like six or seven hours I'm making that like six or seven hours I'm making that like six or seven hours I'm making that up to to actually put together and send up to to actually put together and send up to to actually put together and send out a weekly email newsletter. Is that a out a weekly email newsletter. Is that a out a weekly email newsletter. Is that a good return on investment and and the good return on investment and and the good return on investment and and the answer might be yes but now you know answer might be yes but now you know answer might be yes but now you know okay we're going to do that every week.

okay we're going to do that every week. okay we're going to do that every week. we know that that is 10% or 15 or 20% of we know that that is 10% or 15 or 20% of we know that that is 10% or 15 or 20% of my time. Next, like you do that with all my time. Next, like you do that with all my time. Next, like you do that with all your weekly projects, you start to your weekly projects, you start to your weekly projects, you start to realize, wow, um there's a lot of things realize, wow, um there's a lot of things realize, wow, um there's a lot of things we probably do that don't really move we probably do that don't really move we probably do that don't really move the needle that much. And we call those the needle that much. And we call those the needle that much. And we call those sacred cows and they're all over the sacred cows and they're all over the sacred cows and they're all over the church. They're all over. church. They're all over. church. They're all over. >> I had a call, Jason, I had a call with a >> I had a call, Jason, I had a call with a >> I had a call, Jason, I had a call with a church last week. The comm's director church last week. The comm's director church last week. The comm's director told me that they have an administrative told me that they have an administrative told me that they have an administrative person on their staff who uh 75% of her person on their staff who uh 75% of her person on their staff who uh 75% of her time every week is spent putting time every week is spent putting time every week is spent putting together a printed bulletin book that together a printed bulletin book that together a printed bulletin book that gets handed out at church every week. gets handed out at church every week. gets handed out at church every week. And I'm looking at that, I'm thinking, And I'm looking at that, I'm thinking, And I'm looking at that, I'm thinking, okay, let's assume I'm I'm throw a okay, let's assume I'm I'm throw a okay, let's assume I'm I'm throw a number out here. Uh $15 an hour for this number out here. Uh $15 an hour for this number out here. Uh $15 an hour for this person. I don't know, $20 an hour. I person. I don't know, $20 an hour. I person. I don't know, $20 an hour. I have no idea what you what you'd pay have no idea what you what you'd pay have no idea what you what you'd pay this person. I I'll use, you know, easy this person. I I'll use, you know, easy this person. I I'll use, you know, easy numbers. Uh 20 bucks an hour. It's $800 numbers. Uh 20 bucks an hour. It's $800 numbers. Uh 20 bucks an hour. It's $800 a week. It's 40ish,000 a week. It's 40ish,000 a week. It's 40ish,000 a year. If all the church is looking a year. If all the church is looking a year. If all the church is looking >> it probably more other people time to >> it probably more other people time to >> it probably more other people time to pull that together.

pull that together. pull that together. >> If all the church is looking at is the >> If all the church is looking at is the >> If all the church is looking at is the cost of printing the bulletin, not the cost of printing the bulletin, not the cost of printing the bulletin, not the time that the person is spending on it, time that the person is spending on it, time that the person is spending on it, that bulletin just became a very, very that bulletin just became a very, very that bulletin just became a very, very expensive line item for the church. But expensive line item for the church. But expensive line item for the church. But because in a church space we tend to not because in a church space we tend to not because in a church space we tend to not look at things like we do in the look at things like we do in the look at things like we do in the business world. You don't put all those business world. You don't put all those business world. You don't put all those you don't connect all those dots and you you don't connect all those dots and you you don't connect all those dots and you don't it doesn't all make sense that don't it doesn't all make sense that don't it doesn't all make sense that way. way. way. >> So if you really want to move if you go >> So if you really want to move if you go >> So if you really want to move if you go Jason I know we can do better. I know we Jason I know we can do better. I know we Jason I know we can do better. I know we can we can go further. You've got to can we can go further. You've got to can we can go further. You've got to start with just the basics of understand start with just the basics of understand start with just the basics of understand what it takes to get the job done. what it takes to get the job done. what it takes to get the job done. >> Yeah. And and lean on Claude or Chad G, >> Yeah. And and lean on Claude or Chad G, >> Yeah. And and lean on Claude or Chad G, whatever you use um to help you out with whatever you use um to help you out with whatever you use um to help you out with this, right? Or reach out to Bart, this, right? Or reach out to Bart, this, right? Or reach out to Bart, myself. We we can have one-on-one calls myself. We we can have one-on-one calls myself. We we can have one-on-one calls with y'all because this stuff really with y'all because this stuff really with y'all because this stuff really matters because the only way you're matters because the only way you're matters because the only way you're going to improve and change, right, for going to improve and change, right, for going to improve and change, right, for better is to actually wrap your arms better is to actually wrap your arms better is to actually wrap your arms around what you currently do and and around what you currently do and and around what you currently do and and help leadership understand. Oh, I had no help leadership understand. Oh, I had no help leadership understand. Oh, I had no idea it took that much time. Wow, that idea it took that much time. Wow, that idea it took that much time. Wow, that maybe we do need to rethink that. And maybe we do need to rethink that. And maybe we do need to rethink that. And I'll tell you, we did that at Central. I'll tell you, we did that at Central. I'll tell you, we did that at Central. We had this thing Central this week. It We had this thing Central this week. It We had this thing Central this week. It was a 11 by7 stuff on every It was full was a 11 by7 stuff on every It was full was a 11 by7 stuff on every It was full of information. We ended up killing it of information. We ended up killing it of information. We ended up killing it because it took so much time and so much because it took so much time and so much because it took so much time and so much money and energy and it didn't really money and energy and it didn't really money and energy and it didn't really help any. I mean, it's just those people help any. I mean, it's just those people help any. I mean, it's just those people that when we got rid of it, we had like that when we got rid of it, we had like that when we got rid of it, we had like a handful of people that complained. You a handful of people that complained. You a handful of people that complained. You know what? They already can find stuff know what? They already can find stuff know what? They already can find stuff anyway. So, it was just wasn't worth all anyway. So, it was just wasn't worth all anyway. So, it was just wasn't worth all the all the effort.

the all the effort. the all the effort. >> Um, let's move to sort of a a a >> Um, let's move to sort of a a a >> Um, let's move to sort of a a a concluding thought on on this episode. concluding thought on on this episode. concluding thought on on this episode. And I I I certainly hope this has been And I I I certainly hope this has been And I I I certainly hope this has been helpful. I think the the biggest helpful. I think the the biggest helpful. I think the the biggest takeaway so far has been, hey, you've takeaway so far has been, hey, you've takeaway so far has been, hey, you've got to be able to create boundaries for got to be able to create boundaries for got to be able to create boundaries for yourself. Um, you've got to but you've yourself. Um, you've got to but you've yourself. Um, you've got to but you've got to back up your requests for got to back up your requests for got to back up your requests for boundaries with some actual data. What boundaries with some actual data. What boundaries with some actual data. What are you spending your time on? What's are you spending your time on? What's are you spending your time on? What's taking the most time? And then let your taking the most time? And then let your taking the most time? And then let your leadership team help you evaluate uh how leadership team help you evaluate uh how leadership team help you evaluate uh how to best leverage your time for the to best leverage your time for the to best leverage your time for the things that are going to be viewed by things that are going to be viewed by things that are going to be viewed by the leadership team as the most the leadership team as the most the leadership team as the most critical, the most important. um you critical, the most important. um you critical, the most important. um you know there not every everything in the know there not every everything in the know there not every everything in the church is important but not everything church is important but not everything church is important but not everything is of equal importance. Everything in is of equal importance. Everything in is of equal importance. Everything in the church is important but not the church is important but not the church is important but not everything is is urgent. Right? And so everything is is urgent. Right? And so everything is is urgent. Right? And so we have to manage these things. But here we have to manage these things. But here we have to manage these things. But here let's talk about this diagnosing the let's talk about this diagnosing the let's talk about this diagnosing the problem in terms of why things take the problem in terms of why things take the problem in terms of why things take the amount of time that they do uh will help amount of time that they do uh will help amount of time that they do uh will help you get the right solution. And I've you get the right solution. And I've you get the right solution. And I've I've put some bullet points down here. I've put some bullet points down here. I've put some bullet points down here. You and I kind of talked through these You and I kind of talked through these You and I kind of talked through these before we even started uh recording. Um, before we even started uh recording. Um, before we even started uh recording. Um, sometimes the issues are systems sometimes the issues are systems sometimes the issues are systems problems. You don't have the right problems. You don't have the right problems. You don't have the right system. You don't have the right request system. You don't have the right request system. You don't have the right request form. You don't have the right project form. You don't have the right project form. You don't have the right project management tool. You don't have a system management tool. You don't have a system management tool. You don't have a system in place that allows you to be in place that allows you to be in place that allows you to be efficient. I know you're really big on efficient. I know you're really big on efficient. I know you're really big on on communication systems. Any any on communication systems. Any any on communication systems. Any any comments or thoughts on that, Jason?

comments or thoughts on that, Jason? comments or thoughts on that, Jason? >> Well, yeah. I mean, not only do you want >> Well, yeah. I mean, not only do you want >> Well, yeah. I mean, not only do you want to investigate what you're not changing to investigate what you're not changing to investigate what you're not changing your choosing, not only do you want to your choosing, not only do you want to your choosing, not only do you want to investigate the systems, the tools investigate the systems, the tools investigate the systems, the tools you're using, you also want to you're using, you also want to you're using, you also want to investigate the time that people are investigate the time that people are investigate the time that people are submitting things. And by the way, you submitting things. And by the way, you submitting things. And by the way, you don't want to go, you don't want to don't want to go, you don't want to don't want to go, you don't want to champion that by yourself. Don't do champion that by yourself. Don't do champion that by yourself. Don't do that. Don't think that you can go in and that. Don't think that you can go in and that. Don't think that you can go in and sell everybody, hey, I've got a new sell everybody, hey, I've got a new sell everybody, hey, I've got a new system and this is what I want done. You system and this is what I want done. You system and this is what I want done. You are not that important. Don't think of are not that important. Don't think of are not that important. Don't think of yourself at that. You will create yourself at that. You will create yourself at that. You will create enemies. Instead, go to your boss and enemies. Instead, go to your boss and enemies. Instead, go to your boss and say, "Hey, boss, whoever that is, will say, "Hey, boss, whoever that is, will say, "Hey, boss, whoever that is, will you take a look at this? Will you speak you take a look at this? Will you speak you take a look at this? Will you speak into it? Will you get the whole into it? Will you get the whole into it? Will you get the whole leadership, whatever size of church that leadership, whatever size of church that leadership, whatever size of church that is, and will you have those guys bless is, and will you have those guys bless is, and will you have those guys bless this?" Speak into it and then rubber this?" Speak into it and then rubber this?" Speak into it and then rubber stamp and bless it to tell the whole stamp and bless it to tell the whole stamp and bless it to tell the whole staff, hey, we got a new system here staff, hey, we got a new system here staff, hey, we got a new system here about communications. And you know, Bart about communications. And you know, Bart about communications. And you know, Bart here is our comm director. He's asked us here is our comm director. He's asked us here is our comm director. He's asked us to help, so we've spoken into it. We are to help, so we've spoken into it. We are to help, so we've spoken into it. We are blessing it from now on. Here it is. blessing it from now on. Here it is. blessing it from now on. Here it is. Bart, you want to explain what the new Bart, you want to explain what the new Bart, you want to explain what the new system is. You want that. You want to system is. You want that. You want to system is. You want that. You want to have your leadership be the leaders to have your leadership be the leaders to have your leadership be the leaders to to speak into that's it could be a to speak into that's it could be a to speak into that's it could be a system problem, right? Or it could be system problem, right? Or it could be system problem, right? Or it could be you have a good problem but or a good you have a good problem but or a good you have a good problem but or a good system but nobody's following the rules.

system but nobody's following the rules. system but nobody's following the rules. Now you got your you got a a bigger Now you got your you got a a bigger Now you got your you got a a bigger problem. You got to go get it blast from problem. You got to go get it blast from problem. You got to go get it blast from the top down. the top down. the top down. >> Yep. Yeah. If if systems are broken or >> Yep. Yeah. If if systems are broken or >> Yep. Yeah. If if systems are broken or you don't have a system at all, things you don't have a system at all, things you don't have a system at all, things are naturally going to take more time are naturally going to take more time are naturally going to take more time and it's going to create way more and it's going to create way more and it's going to create way more pressure and way more anxiety for you um pressure and way more anxiety for you um pressure and way more anxiety for you um to be able to deliver the things you to be able to deliver the things you to be able to deliver the things you need to deliver. Uh second point that I need to deliver. Uh second point that I need to deliver. Uh second point that I wrote down here is that sometimes I wrote down here is that sometimes I wrote down here is that sometimes I think um the problem could be that you think um the problem could be that you think um the problem could be that you need to develop certain skills to be need to develop certain skills to be need to develop certain skills to be better at doing certain things. And and better at doing certain things. And and better at doing certain things. And and you you should know this like you should you you should know this like you should you you should know this like you should know, you know, if if if your gifting is know, you know, if if if your gifting is know, you know, if if if your gifting is not in visual design and graphic design not in visual design and graphic design not in visual design and graphic design and it's going to take you longer to do and it's going to take you longer to do and it's going to take you longer to do the graphic design, you got to do one of the graphic design, you got to do one of the graphic design, you got to do one of two things. You either have to take some two things. You either have to take some two things. You either have to take some courses or do some training and and courses or do some training and and courses or do some training and and develop that skill. Um or you need to develop that skill. Um or you need to develop that skill. Um or you need to find someone else who can do it, whether find someone else who can do it, whether find someone else who can do it, whether it's in-house or out of house. Same it's in-house or out of house. Same it's in-house or out of house. Same thing with like website management, web thing with like website management, web thing with like website management, web development. I mean, I can't tell you, development. I mean, I can't tell you, development. I mean, I can't tell you, Jason, we, you know, we're big advocates Jason, we, you know, we're big advocates Jason, we, you know, we're big advocates of of WordPress websites. of of WordPress websites. of of WordPress websites. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There are so few comms directors in >> There are so few comms directors in >> There are so few comms directors in churches that are fluent in really being churches that are fluent in really being churches that are fluent in really being able to update, build, and do work in able to update, build, and do work in able to update, build, and do work in WordPress, yet that falls on their WordPress, yet that falls on their WordPress, yet that falls on their plate. Guess what? You either need to plate. Guess what? You either need to plate. Guess what? You either need to take a course, take some training, do take a course, take some training, do take a course, take some training, do something that helps you enhance that something that helps you enhance that something that helps you enhance that skill, get better at it, so that skill, get better at it, so that skill, get better at it, so that something that might take you two hours something that might take you two hours something that might take you two hours now can only take you 45 minutes. You now can only take you 45 minutes. You now can only take you 45 minutes. You can buy some of your time back by doing can buy some of your time back by doing can buy some of your time back by doing some training or you need to find some training or you need to find some training or you need to find somebody else who can do it for you, a somebody else who can do it for you, a somebody else who can do it for you, a volunteer, a part-time staff member or volunteer, a part-time staff member or volunteer, a part-time staff member or an agency or somebody out of house, an agency or somebody out of house, an agency or somebody out of house, right? But skill set, I think, does make

right? But skill set, I think, does make right? But skill set, I think, does make a big difference. It it does it. Um, and a big difference. It it does it. Um, and a big difference. It it does it. Um, and it's okay to say I don't know how to do it's okay to say I don't know how to do it's okay to say I don't know how to do this. You know, sometimes we we we mask this. You know, sometimes we we we mask this. You know, sometimes we we we mask that. You know, we're we were the com that. You know, we're we were the com that. You know, we're we were the com director. We should know this. Like, you director. We should know this. Like, you director. We should know this. Like, you were born as a com director. Come on. were born as a com director. Come on. were born as a com director. Come on. And and and and things change so much in And and and and things change so much in And and and and things change so much in our world. our world. our world. Thank goodness the Bible doesn't change Thank goodness the Bible doesn't change Thank goodness the Bible doesn't change because [laughter] that would that'd be because [laughter] that would that'd be because [laughter] that would that'd be a problem, right? But our world with a problem, right? But our world with a problem, right? But our world with technology, it changes regularly. So by technology, it changes regularly. So by technology, it changes regularly. So by the time you master something, it's the time you master something, it's the time you master something, it's changed. So now you got to spend your changed. So now you got to spend your changed. So now you got to spend your time keeping up with all the change. So time keeping up with all the change. So time keeping up with all the change. So you really need to ask yourself, is this you really need to ask yourself, is this you really need to ask yourself, is this something that I could easily outsource something that I could easily outsource something that I could easily outsource or is this something I have to own? I'm or is this something I have to own? I'm or is this something I have to own? I'm the comm director. There's only so many the comm director. There's only so many the comm director. There's only so many things that I can do versus outsourcing. things that I can do versus outsourcing. things that I can do versus outsourcing. So you got to ask yourself that even So you got to ask yourself that even So you got to ask yourself that even though you oh I just I have a passion to though you oh I just I have a passion to though you oh I just I have a passion to learn websites. Yeah, but there's only learn websites. Yeah, but there's only learn websites. Yeah, but there's only you you have to come to the meetings you you have to come to the meetings you you have to come to the meetings when it talks to the ministries or you when it talks to the ministries or you when it talks to the ministries or you have to go to the leadership and explain have to go to the leadership and explain have to go to the leadership and explain what's going on or you have to come up what's going on or you have to come up what's going on or you have to come up with that strategy for how we're going with that strategy for how we're going with that strategy for how we're going to promote FallFest. You can't outsource to promote FallFest. You can't outsource to promote FallFest. You can't outsource that, but you can outsource those things that, but you can outsource those things that, but you can outsource those things like web and maybe even social media or like web and maybe even social media or like web and maybe even social media or writing or whatever it might be. You can writing or whatever it might be. You can writing or whatever it might be. You can outsource that. So, just know your outsource that. So, just know your outsource that. So, just know your boundaries. Know what you want to do boundaries. Know what you want to do boundaries. Know what you want to do versus what you have to do.

versus what you have to do. versus what you have to do. >> Yeah. Everybody that I know that's ever >> Yeah. Everybody that I know that's ever >> Yeah. Everybody that I know that's ever come into a church communications role, come into a church communications role, come into a church communications role, I shouldn't say everyone, but a high I shouldn't say everyone, but a high I shouldn't say everyone, but a high percentage um have have come in because percentage um have have come in because percentage um have have come in because they have a unique skill. they have a unique skill. they have a unique skill. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That is used by a comm's director. Maybe >> That is used by a comm's director. Maybe >> That is used by a comm's director. Maybe it's graphic design or maybe it's it's graphic design or maybe it's it's graphic design or maybe it's copywriting or maybe it's project copywriting or maybe it's project copywriting or maybe it's project management or maybe it's creative. Um, management or maybe it's creative. Um, management or maybe it's creative. Um, but they've got one lane in which but they've got one lane in which but they've got one lane in which they're super super talented and super they're super super talented and super they're super super talented and super gifted and then they get into the role gifted and then they get into the role gifted and then they get into the role and realize there's all these other and realize there's all these other and realize there's all these other pieces that they have to do and maybe pieces that they have to do and maybe pieces that they have to do and maybe they can do them, maybe they're a fast they can do them, maybe they're a fast they can do them, maybe they're a fast learner or maybe not, but you have to learner or maybe not, but you have to learner or maybe not, but you have to really do a hard evaluation of, you really do a hard evaluation of, you really do a hard evaluation of, you know, and this will go back to you're know, and this will go back to you're know, and this will go back to you're tracking the work that you're doing. you tracking the work that you're doing. you tracking the work that you're doing. you can look at it and see um you know when can look at it and see um you know when can look at it and see um you know when it comes to things like uh copywriting it comes to things like uh copywriting it comes to things like uh copywriting uh you you if you're not using AI um you uh you you if you're not using AI um you uh you you if you're not using AI um you know to do your copywriting now it'll know to do your copywriting now it'll know to do your copywriting now it'll save you so much time right there's some save you so much time right there's some save you so much time right there's some great some great tools that can can help great some great tools that can can help great some great tools that can can help you with that like church copy uh one of you with that like church copy uh one of you with that like church copy uh one of our one of our friends one of our our one of our friends one of our our one of our friends one of our partners uh like a company called church partners uh like a company called church partners uh like a company called church copy where you can get all of your copy copy where you can get all of your copy copy where you can get all of your copy written that'll save you some time it's written that'll save you some time it's written that'll save you some time it's not necessarily I guess it's outsourcing not necessarily I guess it's outsourcing not necessarily I guess it's outsourcing to artificial intelligence um you know to artificial intelligence um you know to artificial intelligence um you know uh sermon short clips, right? Using AI uh sermon short clips, right? Using AI uh sermon short clips, right? Using AI tools like sermon shots and or Opus clip tools like sermon shots and or Opus clip tools like sermon shots and or Opus clip or something like that rather than or something like that rather than or something like that rather than editing video clips manually. There editing video clips manually. There editing video clips manually. There there are same some things that that you there are same some things that that you there are same some things that that you can, you know, find AI to help you with.

can, you know, find AI to help you with. can, you know, find AI to help you with. Um, you know, another thing that I I Um, you know, another thing that I I Um, you know, another thing that I I mentioned is and we talk about this on mentioned is and we talk about this on mentioned is and we talk about this on this podcast a lot is incorporating this podcast a lot is incorporating this podcast a lot is incorporating volunteers into your workflow. Um, I volunteers into your workflow. Um, I volunteers into your workflow. Um, I think sometimes we think that the think sometimes we think that the think sometimes we think that the volunteers need to be creative, that volunteers need to be creative, that volunteers need to be creative, that they're photographers or graphic they're photographers or graphic they're photographers or graphic designers or web people or whatever. designers or web people or whatever. designers or web people or whatever. Sometimes you can just use highly Sometimes you can just use highly Sometimes you can just use highly administrative people on your team, administrative people on your team, administrative people on your team, especially if administration is not your especially if administration is not your especially if administration is not your gift. So, if part of the problem could gift. So, if part of the problem could gift. So, if part of the problem could be that you just don't have a strong be that you just don't have a strong be that you just don't have a strong system and you don't you don't have system and you don't you don't have system and you don't you don't have strong administrative gifts, you need strong administrative gifts, you need strong administrative gifts, you need somebody on your team who's somebody on your team who's somebody on your team who's administrative and maybe there's a administrative and maybe there's a administrative and maybe there's a volunteer that you can get for two or volunteer that you can get for two or volunteer that you can get for two or four hours a week that could help you four hours a week that could help you four hours a week that could help you manage projects and coordinate things manage projects and coordinate things manage projects and coordinate things and organize stuff and and you know, and organize stuff and and you know, and organize stuff and and you know, make phone calls or send emails or make phone calls or send emails or make phone calls or send emails or whatever that you might need help with. whatever that you might need help with. whatever that you might need help with. But a couple of welltrained, But a couple of welltrained, But a couple of welltrained, well-informed volunteers can actually well-informed volunteers can actually well-informed volunteers can actually reduce a lot of pressure from you as the reduce a lot of pressure from you as the reduce a lot of pressure from you as the comm's director. comm's director. comm's director. >> And I and I'll tell you that that is >> And I and I'll tell you that that is >> And I and I'll tell you that that is key. And and don't think that, oh, I'm key. And and don't think that, oh, I'm key. And and don't think that, oh, I'm going to build my ministry on going to build my ministry on going to build my ministry on volunteers. That's not smart because volunteers. That's not smart because volunteers. That's not smart because this stuff is every single week that you this stuff is every single week that you this stuff is every single week that you typically have to do things. And I'll typically have to do things. And I'll typically have to do things. And I'll tell you, um, a lot of advice I give is tell you, um, a lot of advice I give is tell you, um, a lot of advice I give is sometimes you get a volunteer and you sometimes you get a volunteer and you sometimes you get a volunteer and you find these guys are really good. you you find these guys are really good. you you find these guys are really good. you you might want to turn them into a a little might want to turn them into a a little might want to turn them into a a little bit of a paid person. Here's what I mean bit of a paid person. Here's what I mean bit of a paid person. Here's what I mean by that. I I I go to the church I go to by that. I I I go to the church I go to by that. I I I go to the church I go to part of my serving is Sunday afternoon I part of my serving is Sunday afternoon I part of my serving is Sunday afternoon I go pick up the A-frame signs. Takes me go pick up the A-frame signs. Takes me go pick up the A-frame signs. Takes me uh all of 30 30 minutes, right? I'm not

uh all of 30 30 minutes, right? I'm not uh all of 30 30 minutes, right? I'm not going to go to my contact at the church going to go to my contact at the church going to go to my contact at the church and say, you know, I've been doing this and say, you know, I've been doing this and say, you know, I've been doing this because I've been doing it for over five because I've been doing it for over five because I've been doing it for over five years. It's about time I get paid for years. It's about time I get paid for years. It's about time I get paid for this, right? It's 30 minutes of my time. this, right? It's 30 minutes of my time. this, right? It's 30 minutes of my time. Not one Sunday afternoon, not a very big Not one Sunday afternoon, not a very big Not one Sunday afternoon, not a very big deal. Okay? And I have the I can do it deal. Okay? And I have the I can do it deal. Okay? And I have the I can do it anytime Sunday afternoon. But if I ha if anytime Sunday afternoon. But if I ha if anytime Sunday afternoon. But if I ha if you got a volunteer that did something you got a volunteer that did something you got a volunteer that did something every day, that's a pretty big pull on a every day, that's a pretty big pull on a every day, that's a pretty big pull on a volunteer, right? Because they've got a volunteer, right? Because they've got a volunteer, right? Because they've got a a life and a job and family and all that a life and a job and family and all that a life and a job and family and all that kind of stuff going on. But you might kind of stuff going on. But you might kind of stuff going on. But you might find, wow, I don't want to let you go. find, wow, I don't want to let you go. find, wow, I don't want to let you go. You're so good at it. You're doing it You're so good at it. You're doing it You're so good at it. You're doing it twice a week. And instead of asking twice a week. And instead of asking twice a week. And instead of asking them, you might want to say, can I pivot them, you might want to say, can I pivot them, you might want to say, can I pivot you to a just a small sipen paid you to a just a small sipen paid you to a just a small sipen paid position? position? position? you know, um even if it's like I I got you know, um even if it's like I I got you know, um even if it's like I I got to get this job done because I can't do to get this job done because I can't do to get this job done because I can't do it. I don't have that giftedness. It it it. I don't have that giftedness. It it it. I don't have that giftedness. It it would be too much time on but it has to would be too much time on but it has to would be too much time on but it has to be done. Then that might be a good be done. Then that might be a good be done. Then that might be a good candidate for somebody that turns into candidate for somebody that turns into candidate for somebody that turns into that very very very part-time position. that very very very part-time position. that very very very part-time position. I've seen that play out over different I've seen that play out over different I've seen that play out over different churches that I've worked with and churches that I've worked with and churches that I've worked with and that's worked out really well because that's worked out really well because that's worked out really well because you're wanting to honor that person and you're wanting to honor that person and you're wanting to honor that person and bless that person, but if you keep bless that person, but if you keep bless that person, but if you keep asking them to do so much, eventually asking them to do so much, eventually asking them to do so much, eventually they're going to they're going to burn they're going to they're going to burn they're going to they're going to burn out.

out. out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If they're paid, that might be a little >> If they're paid, that might be a little >> If they're paid, that might be a little bit of differently. So, I be careful bit of differently. So, I be careful bit of differently. So, I be careful with that. But I also think it's one of with that. But I also think it's one of with that. But I also think it's one of those things where um that you find those things where um that you find those things where um that you find talented people, you want to hold on to talented people, you want to hold on to talented people, you want to hold on to them, you know, and and and it's okay to them, you know, and and and it's okay to them, you know, and and and it's okay to it's okay to move them to a higher level it's okay to move them to a higher level it's okay to move them to a higher level of engagement on your on your team. of engagement on your on your team. of engagement on your on your team. >> I don't know how Sun Valley would ever >> I don't know how Sun Valley would ever >> I don't know how Sun Valley would ever replace you as the A-frame guy. I just replace you as the A-frame guy. I just replace you as the A-frame guy. I just don't know how that would ever happen. don't know how that would ever happen. don't know how that would ever happen. >> Never going to happen. I I love my job >> Never going to happen. I I love my job >> Never going to happen. I I love my job [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> here. Okay, last point here, and you >> here. Okay, last point here, and you >> here. Okay, last point here, and you kind of hit on this a little bit, which kind of hit on this a little bit, which kind of hit on this a little bit, which is um looking to to hire uh part-time is um looking to to hire uh part-time is um looking to to hire uh part-time support um or um hiring an agency uh support um or um hiring an agency uh support um or um hiring an agency uh going out of house. I mean, obviously, going out of house. I mean, obviously, going out of house. I mean, obviously, you know, shameless plug for missional you know, shameless plug for missional you know, shameless plug for missional marketing. We we are an agency that a marketing. We we are an agency that a marketing. We we are an agency that a lot of churches uh engage with us to run lot of churches uh engage with us to run lot of churches uh engage with us to run ad campaigns for them or to do SEO or ad campaigns for them or to do SEO or ad campaigns for them or to do SEO or GEO work for them. Uh we do a lot of GEO work for them. Uh we do a lot of GEO work for them. Uh we do a lot of coaching and consulting, sometimes coaching and consulting, sometimes coaching and consulting, sometimes short-term uh temporary coaching. You short-term uh temporary coaching. You short-term uh temporary coaching. You and I were just talking before we and I were just talking before we and I were just talking before we started recording about a couple of started recording about a couple of started recording about a couple of different churches that are basically different churches that are basically different churches that are basically hiring us for some very specific hiring us for some very specific hiring us for some very specific short-term training. Uh we want you to short-term training. Uh we want you to short-term training. Uh we want you to work with us on something for three or work with us on something for three or work with us on something for three or four months and you know, you're just four months and you know, you're just four months and you know, you're just going to pay a a monthly fee for our going to pay a a monthly fee for our going to pay a a monthly fee for our time over the course of those few months time over the course of those few months time over the course of those few months so that we can help you move the ball so that we can help you move the ball so that we can help you move the ball from one end of the field to the next in from one end of the field to the next in from one end of the field to the next in one specific area. Um you know, things one specific area. Um you know, things one specific area. Um you know, things like that don't have to be ongoing. You like that don't have to be ongoing. You like that don't have to be ongoing. You just need to hire somebody that you just need to hire somebody that you just need to hire somebody that you trust, somebody that is going to add trust, somebody that is going to add trust, somebody that is going to add value, and somebody who has a skill set value, and somebody who has a skill set value, and somebody who has a skill set that offsets what you really can't do.

that offsets what you really can't do. that offsets what you really can't do. And I think that's the biggest thing. I And I think that's the biggest thing. I And I think that's the biggest thing. I mean, I think that's where our our mean, I think that's where our our mean, I think that's where our our success organizationally has been um success organizationally has been um success organizationally has been um that we're we we can help churches that we're we we can help churches that we're we we can help churches identify what what we can do that you identify what what we can do that you identify what what we can do that you can you could probably do, but you don't can you could probably do, but you don't can you could probably do, but you don't have the time to do. And so, it just have the time to do. And so, it just have the time to do. And so, it just makes more sense for you to bring us on makes more sense for you to bring us on makes more sense for you to bring us on as a partner to work with you in doing as a partner to work with you in doing as a partner to work with you in doing that. And the the best compliment that that. And the the best compliment that that. And the the best compliment that we ever get from any church is when they we ever get from any church is when they we ever get from any church is when they say we simply they they view us as a say we simply they they view us as a say we simply they they view us as a part of their team, just an expanded part of their team, just an expanded part of their team, just an expanded part of their team. And that's what we part of their team. And that's what we part of their team. And that's what we would want to do. And if you're going to would want to do. And if you're going to would want to do. And if you're going to look to hire any agency or outsource any look to hire any agency or outsource any look to hire any agency or outsource any work like like that, that's what you work like like that, that's what you work like like that, that's what you should be doing. Uh you shouldn't just should be doing. Uh you shouldn't just should be doing. Uh you shouldn't just go and hire a faceless company with no go and hire a faceless company with no go and hire a faceless company with no personality that doesn't know and personality that doesn't know and personality that doesn't know and understand the church space. You should understand the church space. You should understand the church space. You should find a partner that will really invest find a partner that will really invest find a partner that will really invest in your ministry even though you're in your ministry even though you're in your ministry even though you're paying them to do that. You want them to paying them to do that. You want them to paying them to do that. You want them to love and and want the success of your love and and want the success of your love and and want the success of your ministry the same way that you do. ministry the same way that you do. ministry the same way that you do. >> Yeah. Um and and I think we'll we'll >> Yeah. Um and and I think we'll we'll >> Yeah. Um and and I think we'll we'll we'll we'll land the plane with this.

we'll we'll land the plane with this. we'll we'll land the plane with this. So, we're talking about you not burning So, we're talking about you not burning So, we're talking about you not burning out or or getting fatigued. And and the out or or getting fatigued. And and the out or or getting fatigued. And and the question I would ask you if if we had a question I would ask you if if we had a question I would ask you if if we had a conversation is have you read the book conversation is have you read the book conversation is have you read the book Patrick Lencion's book, The Six Working Patrick Lencion's book, The Six Working Patrick Lencion's book, The Six Working Geniuses? That'd be my question to you Geniuses? That'd be my question to you Geniuses? That'd be my question to you because I'd say, "What are your because I'd say, "What are your because I'd say, "What are your geniuses? What has God gifted you with geniuses? What has God gifted you with geniuses? What has God gifted you with that you love?" I mean, when you do this that you love?" I mean, when you do this that you love?" I mean, when you do this task, oh, I could do it all day long, task, oh, I could do it all day long, task, oh, I could do it all day long, forever and ever and ever. But when I do forever and ever and ever. But when I do forever and ever and ever. But when I do that task, I want to pull my hair out that task, I want to pull my hair out that task, I want to pull my hair out and just like, you know, throw something and just like, you know, throw something and just like, you know, throw something against the wall. against the wall. against the wall. >> Okay. If your job is living over there >> Okay. If your job is living over there >> Okay. If your job is living over there where you're having to do this stuff where you're having to do this stuff where you're having to do this stuff where you have to throw, you just are where you have to throw, you just are where you have to throw, you just are going nuts, you're going to be you're going nuts, you're going to be you're going nuts, you're going to be you're out in six months to a year, you'll out in six months to a year, you'll out in six months to a year, you'll quit. But if you're living in your quit. But if you're living in your quit. But if you're living in your genius, you you're never working a day genius, you you're never working a day genius, you you're never working a day of your life. of your life. of your life. >> So my question is, what's your working >> So my question is, what's your working >> So my question is, what's your working genius? Go buy that book, The Six genius? Go buy that book, The Six genius? Go buy that book, The Six Working Geniuses, Patrick Lencion, and Working Geniuses, Patrick Lencion, and Working Geniuses, Patrick Lencion, and then take the the little test. It's like then take the the little test. It's like then take the the little test. It's like 25 bucks. Take the the the test so you 25 bucks. Take the the the test so you 25 bucks. Take the the the test so you can find out what your working genius can find out what your working genius can find out what your working genius is. that will speak a lot onto into who is. that will speak a lot onto into who is. that will speak a lot onto into who you are as a person and the the gifting you are as a person and the the gifting you are as a person and the the gifting and the talents that God has given you and the talents that God has given you and the talents that God has given you and how then you can measure that up and how then you can measure that up and how then you can measure that up against what you're doing in your in against what you're doing in your in against what you're doing in your in your day job and see if there's your day job and see if there's your day job and see if there's alignment there or not.

alignment there or not. alignment there or not. >> Yeah, it's a good book. Um we, you know, >> Yeah, it's a good book. Um we, you know, >> Yeah, it's a good book. Um we, you know, we've gone through it as a team and and we've gone through it as a team and and we've gone through it as a team and and I've been through it with a lot of I've been through it with a lot of I've been through it with a lot of people in in ministry and it is it is a people in in ministry and it is it is a people in in ministry and it is it is a good tool. I I personally it's not the good tool. I I personally it's not the good tool. I I personally it's not the stuff that makes me want to pull my hair stuff that makes me want to pull my hair stuff that makes me want to pull my hair out. I don't I don't have any hair out. I don't I don't have any hair out. I don't I don't have any hair anyway, but it's not the stuff that anyway, but it's not the stuff that anyway, but it's not the stuff that makes me it's the stuff I avoid, right? makes me it's the stuff I avoid, right? makes me it's the stuff I avoid, right? It's the you've got 10 things to do and It's the you've got 10 things to do and It's the you've got 10 things to do and there's like number four or five on the there's like number four or five on the there's like number four or five on the list is outside of your working genius. list is outside of your working genius. list is outside of your working genius. It's a working frustration and so you It's a working frustration and so you It's a working frustration and so you just keep pushing it further and further just keep pushing it further and further just keep pushing it further and further down the list and you don't accomplish down the list and you don't accomplish down the list and you don't accomplish it. Um so sh you know there there's a it. Um so sh you know there there's a it. Um so sh you know there there's a plug for Patrick Lencion who does not plug for Patrick Lencion who does not plug for Patrick Lencion who does not pay us to uh his books on our podcast pay us to uh his books on our podcast pay us to uh his books on our podcast but we will promote our own book on our but we will promote our own book on our but we will promote our own book on our podcast. It's called uh reaching the podcast. It's called uh reaching the podcast. It's called uh reaching the one. Um you should get a copy. You can one. Um you should get a copy. You can one. Um you should get a copy. You can go over to Amazon right now. You can uh go over to Amazon right now. You can uh go over to Amazon right now. You can uh just search Jason Hamrock or Bart Blair just search Jason Hamrock or Bart Blair just search Jason Hamrock or Bart Blair or Reaching the One. Um or you can check or Reaching the One. Um or you can check or Reaching the One. Um or you can check the show notes for um this podcast the show notes for um this podcast the show notes for um this podcast episode and we'll include that. But hey, episode and we'll include that. But hey, episode and we'll include that. But hey, if you're planning to attend our if you're planning to attend our if you're planning to attend our conference in September, get registered. conference in September, get registered. conference in September, get registered. Go over to churchcommunications.com.

Go over to churchcommunications.com. Go over to churchcommunications.com. Um you'll find all the information about Um you'll find all the information about Um you'll find all the information about the conference there. We'll also include the conference there. We'll also include the conference there. We'll also include that in the show notes. Um and if you're that in the show notes. Um and if you're that in the show notes. Um and if you're going to come to the conference, don't going to come to the conference, don't going to come to the conference, don't bother buying a book because we're going bother buying a book because we're going bother buying a book because we're going to give you one unless you just can't to give you one unless you just can't to give you one unless you just can't wait. Unless you just you need to read wait. Unless you just you need to read wait. Unless you just you need to read it now. uh and you can't wait until it now. uh and you can't wait until it now. uh and you can't wait until September, um then go ahead and buy one. September, um then go ahead and buy one. September, um then go ahead and buy one. Um but it's available in paperback and Um but it's available in paperback and Um but it's available in paperback and in Kindle format. And uh Jason, uh in Kindle format. And uh Jason, uh in Kindle format. And uh Jason, uh thanks for hanging out with me today. thanks for hanging out with me today. thanks for hanging out with me today. This has been a long episode, but This has been a long episode, but This has been a long episode, but hopefully it has been helpful. I just hopefully it has been helpful. I just hopefully it has been helpful. I just have a real heart for all these comm's have a real heart for all these comm's have a real heart for all these comm's directors that I know are just they're directors that I know are just they're directors that I know are just they're working so hard and want to do so much working so hard and want to do so much working so hard and want to do so much and do so well. Um but it can sometimes and do so well. Um but it can sometimes and do so well. Um but it can sometimes be a thankless job. So, uh for those of be a thankless job. So, uh for those of be a thankless job. So, uh for those of you who feel like you haven't been you who feel like you haven't been you who feel like you haven't been thanked lately, thank you. And if you're thanked lately, thank you. And if you're thanked lately, thank you. And if you're listening to this podcast, thank you. listening to this podcast, thank you. listening to this podcast, thank you. Thank you for listening to our show. Thank you for listening to our show. Thank you for listening to our show. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] We uh we're grateful that you uh you We uh we're grateful that you uh you We uh we're grateful that you uh you hung out with us uh on another episode. hung out with us uh on another episode. hung out with us uh on another episode. If you haven't yet subscribed wherever If you haven't yet subscribed wherever If you haven't yet subscribed wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, be you listen to your favorite podcast, be you listen to your favorite podcast, be sure that you do that so that you don't sure that you do that so that you don't sure that you do that so that you don't miss future episodes. And if you're miss future episodes. And if you're miss future episodes. And if you're watching on our YouTube channel, be sure watching on our YouTube channel, be sure watching on our YouTube channel, be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. And to subscribe to our YouTube channel. And to subscribe to our YouTube channel. And as they always say, they all those as they always say, they all those as they always say, they all those podcast people, ring the bell uh so you podcast people, ring the bell uh so you podcast people, ring the bell uh so you get notified when future episodes are get notified when future episodes are get notified when future episodes are dropped. Thanks again. We'll see you dropped. Thanks again. We'll see you dropped. Thanks again. We'll see you next time.

next time. next time. [music]