Restoring Health and Hope for Pastors Beyond COVID-19 | Shawn Lovejoy

[Music] [Music] welcome to the church growth interviews welcome to the church growth interviews welcome to the church growth interviews podcast podcast podcast from missional marketing i'm bart blair from missional marketing i'm bart blair from missional marketing i'm bart blair i'm one of the team members at national i'm one of the team members at national i'm one of the team members at national marketing and i'm joined as marketing and i'm joined as marketing and i'm joined as always with the ceo of missional always with the ceo of missional always with the ceo of missional marketing and my friend marketing and my friend marketing and my friend jason hamrock hi my friend bart how are jason hamrock hi my friend bart how are jason hamrock hi my friend bart how are you today you today you today i'm doing very well i was going to do i'm doing very well i was going to do i'm doing very well i was going to do you know brittany on our team every time you know brittany on our team every time you know brittany on our team every time she sends out an email and says that she sends out an email and says that she sends out an email and says that you're going to be a meeting she always you're going to be a meeting she always you're going to be a meeting she always prefaces it with the one prefaces it with the one prefaces it with the one and only jason hamrock so i there might and only jason hamrock so i there might and only jason hamrock so i there might be more be more be more i don't know of any more but uh please i don't know of any more but uh please i don't know of any more but uh please lord let there not lord let there not lord let there not yeah i know i know if you if you google yeah i know i know if you if you google yeah i know i know if you if you google my name bart blair there are a few bart my name bart blair there are a few bart my name bart blair there are a few bart blair's that blair's that blair's that uh that come up but i have better seo uh that come up but i have better seo uh that come up but i have better seo than most of them so i'm usually at the than most of them so i'm usually at the than most of them so i'm usually at the top of the page top of the page top of the page just so you know yeah that's a little just so you know yeah that's a little just so you know yeah that's a little plug just so you know i'm plug just so you know i'm plug just so you know i'm my seo is is is way better so hey my seo is is is way better so hey my seo is is is way better so hey i want your name to be at the top of i want your name to be at the top of i want your name to be at the top of google talk to bart google talk to bart google talk to bart yeah talk to me i'll i'll give you i'll yeah talk to me i'll i'll give you i'll yeah talk to me i'll i'll give you i'll give you some pointers give you some pointers give you some pointers um hey jason um man we have had um hey jason um man we have had um hey jason um man we have had some really fantastic guests on this some really fantastic guests on this some really fantastic guests on this podcast we've been recording them podcast we've been recording them podcast we've been recording them uh kind of fast and furious it seems uh kind of fast and furious it seems uh kind of fast and furious it seems lately lately lately and you know one of the things that we and you know one of the things that we and you know one of the things that we set out to do set out to do set out to do when we started this podcast a little when we started this podcast a little when we started this podcast a little over a year ago like our i think our over a year ago like our i think our over a year ago like our i think our original vision was well original vision was well original vision was well we do digital marketing and digital we do digital marketing and digital we do digital marketing and digital outreach and we do communications and so outreach and we do communications and so outreach and we do communications and so we really kind of we really kind of we really kind of honed in on bringing guests onto the honed in on bringing guests onto the honed in on bringing guests onto the podcast podcast podcast that you know those are their that you know those are their that you know those are their specialties and and we we have a lot of

specialties and and we we have a lot of specialties and and we we have a lot of them and them and them and you know that we have more coming as as you know that we have more coming as as you know that we have more coming as as our listeners are listening if they're our listeners are listening if they're our listeners are listening if they're subscribed by the way if you're not subscribed by the way if you're not subscribed by the way if you're not subscribed please make sure you subscribed please make sure you subscribed please make sure you subscribe you can subscribe on subscribe you can subscribe on subscribe you can subscribe on any of those platforms that you listen any of those platforms that you listen any of those platforms that you listen to podcasts on to podcasts on to podcasts on uh apple podcasts google podcast uh apple podcasts google podcast uh apple podcasts google podcast stitcher radio i think all of those and stitcher radio i think all of those and stitcher radio i think all of those and and of course youtube you can subscribe and of course youtube you can subscribe and of course youtube you can subscribe to youtube because you don't want to to youtube because you don't want to to youtube because you don't want to miss miss miss any of this good stuff but you know one any of this good stuff but you know one any of this good stuff but you know one of the things that um i found to be of the things that um i found to be of the things that um i found to be interesting as we produced this podcast interesting as we produced this podcast interesting as we produced this podcast for the last year so for the last year so for the last year so is that some of our most popular is that some of our most popular is that some of our most popular episodes episodes episodes have been episodes that have nothing at have been episodes that have nothing at have been episodes that have nothing at all to do all to do all to do with marketing or communications or with marketing or communications or with marketing or communications or digital strategies digital strategies digital strategies a lot of them have had to do with church a lot of them have had to do with church a lot of them have had to do with church leadership and ministry and discipleship leadership and ministry and discipleship leadership and ministry and discipleship and things that and things that and things that aren't necessarily in our wheelhouse aren't necessarily in our wheelhouse aren't necessarily in our wheelhouse organizationally but we've been blessed organizationally but we've been blessed organizationally but we've been blessed with some really great conversations with some really great conversations with some really great conversations with people with people with people who have a lot to add in those areas and who have a lot to add in those areas and who have a lot to add in those areas and that's what we got today you want to that's what we got today you want to that's what we got today you want to introduce the guest that we're going to introduce the guest that we're going to introduce the guest that we're going to be sharing the interview with today be sharing the interview with today be sharing the interview with today yeah i'd love to before i get there just yeah i'd love to before i get there just yeah i'd love to before i get there just to kind of piggyback on what you just to kind of piggyback on what you just to kind of piggyback on what you just said said said you know church growth can be defined in you know church growth can be defined in you know church growth can be defined in a a a number of ways right it could be you're number of ways right it could be you're number of ways right it could be you're growing your congregation growing your congregation growing your congregation it you know by numbers of new families it you know by numbers of new families it you know by numbers of new families it could be your it could be your it could be your discipline your families and they're discipline your families and they're discipline your families and they're growing deeper in their follow growing deeper in their follow growing deeper in their follow following of jesus maybe it's you following of jesus maybe it's you following of jesus maybe it's you personally it's leadership growth rights personally it's leadership growth rights personally it's leadership growth rights church leadership church leadership church leadership growth and and and it doesn't matter

growth and and and it doesn't matter growth and and and it doesn't matter really what it is we really we just want really what it is we really we just want really what it is we really we just want to help to help to help you get better we want to equip and we you get better we want to equip and we you get better we want to equip and we want to teach and we want to want to teach and we want to want to teach and we want to we want to learn from people like our we want to learn from people like our we want to learn from people like our guests today guests today guests today and so i'm really excited we get to uh and so i'm really excited we get to uh and so i'm really excited we get to uh hear from um hear from um hear from um sean lovejoy and he is he wrote sean lovejoy and he is he wrote sean lovejoy and he is he wrote he he runs a thing called courage to he he runs a thing called courage to he he runs a thing called courage to lead uh and so you really want to check lead uh and so you really want to check lead uh and so you really want to check that out at courageously.com that out at courageously.com that out at courageously.com and he's written a couple of books we'll and he's written a couple of books we'll and he's written a couple of books we'll talk about that a little bit talk about that a little bit talk about that a little bit but he speaks into some leadership but he speaks into some leadership but he speaks into some leadership principles here i'm really excited to principles here i'm really excited to principles here i'm really excited to uh have you listen in today because he uh have you listen in today because he uh have you listen in today because he he goes pretty deep into he goes pretty deep into he goes pretty deep into how uh how to help pastors get better how uh how to help pastors get better how uh how to help pastors get better and uh he speaks to both lead pastors and uh he speaks to both lead pastors and uh he speaks to both lead pastors and and and and and and executive pastors and he's created quite executive pastors and he's created quite executive pastors and he's created quite the um the um the um quite the the company and that he speaks quite the the company and that he speaks quite the the company and that he speaks into uh how they're leading and so into uh how they're leading and so into uh how they're leading and so uh we go back and forth and i think this uh we go back and forth and i think this uh we go back and forth and i think this is to be one of those podcasts that is to be one of those podcasts that is to be one of those podcasts that you're going to want to share you're going to want to share you're going to want to share with your leadership team and so not with your leadership team and so not with your leadership team and so not only do we want you to subscribe only do we want you to subscribe only do we want you to subscribe i think this is going to be really i think this is going to be really i think this is going to be really fruitful for for your entire team to to fruitful for for your entire team to to fruitful for for your entire team to to listen to listen to listen to and you will learn something new and you will learn something new and you will learn something new uh sean might poke the bear on a few uh sean might poke the bear on a few uh sean might poke the bear on a few things if you listen to this with your things if you listen to this with your things if you listen to this with your leadership team leadership team leadership team it's one of the things one of the things it's one of the things one of the things it's one of the things one of the things i like about sean i like about sean i like about sean is that he speaks it as he sees it is that he speaks it as he sees it is that he speaks it as he sees it and you know he's a guy who has a lot of and you know he's a guy who has a lot of and you know he's a guy who has a lot of ministry experience and ministry experience and ministry experience and and is um and as seasoned as a pastor and is um and as seasoned as a pastor and is um and as seasoned as a pastor uh but now you know he and his team uh but now you know he and his team uh but now you know he and his team coach pastors and their teams coach pastors and their teams coach pastors and their teams and you know one of the things in spite

and you know one of the things in spite and you know one of the things in spite of everything else that he says of everything else that he says of everything else that he says in in spite of what you might think you in in spite of what you might think you in in spite of what you might think you hear at times hear at times hear at times what's at sean's heart is the health what's at sean's heart is the health what's at sean's heart is the health of pastors because you can't have of pastors because you can't have of pastors because you can't have healthy churches healthy churches healthy churches if you don't have healthy pastors and i if you don't have healthy pastors and i if you don't have healthy pastors and i just love just love just love his passion for helping pastors in this his passion for helping pastors in this his passion for helping pastors in this area and area and area and i thought it was man if i'm to be honest i thought it was man if i'm to be honest i thought it was man if i'm to be honest with you with you with you this might be it's up there this might this might be it's up there this might this might be it's up there this might be my favorite podcast episode that be my favorite podcast episode that be my favorite podcast episode that we've had so far we've had so far we've had so far um we'll see yeah this one speaks to um we'll see yeah this one speaks to um we'll see yeah this one speaks to everybody right everybody right everybody right yeah and it doesn't matter what position yeah and it doesn't matter what position yeah and it doesn't matter what position you got to think about it doesn't matter you got to think about it doesn't matter you got to think about it doesn't matter if you're the lead pastor or if you're the lead pastor or if you're the lead pastor or you're an assistant it okay it doesn't you're an assistant it okay it doesn't you're an assistant it okay it doesn't matter everybody's leading somebody matter everybody's leading somebody matter everybody's leading somebody and so when you think about that even if and so when you think about that even if and so when you think about that even if you're leading your family you're leading your family you're leading your family even if you're a volunteer listening to even if you're a volunteer listening to even if you're a volunteer listening to this and you're like well i have another this and you're like well i have another this and you're like well i have another job well you're probably leaving that job well you're probably leaving that job well you're probably leaving that job well you're retired job well you're retired job well you're retired okay but you're leading somebody you're okay but you're leading somebody you're okay but you're leading somebody you're you're leading yourself for sure you're leading yourself for sure you're leading yourself for sure and so sean speaks into this and i'm and so sean speaks into this and i'm and so sean speaks into this and i'm really excited for it so really excited for it so really excited for it so without further ado here's sean yep sean without further ado here's sean yep sean without further ado here's sean yep sean lovejoy of courage to lead lovejoy of courage to lead lovejoy of courage to lead [Music] [Music] [Music] well hey sean lovejoy welcome to the well hey sean lovejoy welcome to the well hey sean lovejoy welcome to the missional marketing church growth missional marketing church growth missional marketing church growth interviews podcast interviews podcast interviews podcast we're glad that you could join us for an we're glad that you could join us for an we're glad that you could join us for an interview today thanks so much interview today thanks so much interview today thanks so much hey so honored to be with you guys yeah hey so honored to be with you guys yeah hey so honored to be with you guys yeah uh so first of all uh so first of all uh so first of all uh tell us a little bit of your uh tell us a little bit of your uh tell us a little bit of your background background background you know what led you to launching you know what led you to launching you know what led you to launching courage to lead and courage to lead and courage to lead and a little bit about your family history a little bit about your family history a little bit about your family history and where you live and and give our

and where you live and and give our and where you live and and give our listeners an update on that yes so i was listeners an update on that yes so i was listeners an update on that yes so i was a marketplace leader a real estate a marketplace leader a real estate a marketplace leader a real estate developer developer developer you know knocking it down god calls me you know knocking it down god calls me you know knocking it down god calls me into vocational ministry started a into vocational ministry started a into vocational ministry started a church in metro atlanta church in metro atlanta church in metro atlanta in 1999 and i always felt like i was in 1999 and i always felt like i was in 1999 and i always felt like i was better between sundays better between sundays better between sundays and realized most pastors are really and realized most pastors are really and realized most pastors are really good on sundays and struggle between good on sundays and struggle between good on sundays and struggle between sundays sundays sundays and just started utilizing that gift to and just started utilizing that gift to and just started utilizing that gift to consulting coach with pastors consulting coach with pastors consulting coach with pastors actually 20 years ago now wow actually 20 years ago now wow actually 20 years ago now wow back in 2001 so it's been a wild ride back in 2001 so it's been a wild ride back in 2001 so it's been a wild ride you know ever since you know ever since you know ever since and what so coaching was always my side and what so coaching was always my side and what so coaching was always my side hustle hustle hustle and where i got to flex my and where i got to flex my and where i got to flex my entrepreneurial muscles and even though entrepreneurial muscles and even though entrepreneurial muscles and even though the church grew the church grew the church grew you know rapidly and became a multi-site you know rapidly and became a multi-site you know rapidly and became a multi-site mega church like my heart was always on mega church like my heart was always on mega church like my heart was always on the leadership coaching the leadership coaching the leadership coaching side of things and just realized your side of things and just realized your side of things and just realized your spiritual gifts bubble up spiritual gifts bubble up spiritual gifts bubble up and really they're ratified you know by and really they're ratified you know by and really they're ratified you know by other people as well other people as well other people as well and even my church folks would say man and even my church folks would say man and even my church folks would say man when you when you preach we love it but when you when you preach we love it but when you when you preach we love it but when you teach on leadership when you teach on leadership when you teach on leadership you know and so i realize over time like you know and so i realize over time like you know and so i realize over time like i'm a good pastor but i'm a really good i'm a good pastor but i'm a really good i'm a good pastor but i'm a really good coach and i'm in a boardroom coach and i'm in a boardroom coach and i'm in a boardroom you know so so i made this second you know so so i made this second you know so so i made this second scariest decision i've ever made six scariest decision i've ever made six scariest decision i've ever made six years ago years ago years ago seven years ago to hand off my church seven years ago to hand off my church seven years ago to hand off my church and and and coach let me i want to get you to rewind coach let me i want to get you to rewind coach let me i want to get you to rewind just a little bit because just a little bit because just a little bit because one thing that you have in common with one thing that you have in common with one thing that you have in common with both jason and myself both jason and myself both jason and myself is that we all started in marketplace is that we all started in marketplace is that we all started in marketplace before going into ministry

before going into ministry before going into ministry um just talk a little bit about your um just talk a little bit about your um just talk a little bit about your transition from working in the transition from working in the transition from working in the marketplace doing marketplace doing marketplace doing you know real estate real estate you know real estate real estate you know real estate real estate development and and your call into development and and your call into development and and your call into ministry and ministry and ministry and what that looked like for you well one what that looked like for you well one what that looked like for you well one you know i you know i you know i you realize that some of the things that you realize that some of the things that you realize that some of the things that we argue about we argue about we argue about in in ministry world like most people in in ministry world like most people in in ministry world like most people don't care about don't care about don't care about you know and i was an executive trapped you know and i was an executive trapped you know and i was an executive trapped in a pastor's body and probably one of in a pastor's body and probably one of in a pastor's body and probably one of the reasons why i always gravitated the reasons why i always gravitated the reasons why i always gravitated more toward hanging out with executive more toward hanging out with executive more toward hanging out with executive pastors is they wanted to talk nuts and pastors is they wanted to talk nuts and pastors is they wanted to talk nuts and bolts bolts bolts you know senior pastors want to sit you know senior pastors want to sit you know senior pastors want to sit around and argue about theology around and argue about theology around and argue about theology you know and where we disagree and all you know and where we disagree and all you know and where we disagree and all of that stuff and so i of that stuff and so i of that stuff and so i i just realized all along like it's not i just realized all along like it's not i just realized all along like it's not about about about this that or the other our little this that or the other our little this that or the other our little theological nuance or a programmatic theological nuance or a programmatic theological nuance or a programmatic neuron neuron neuron it's really about having a healthy it's really about having a healthy it's really about having a healthy culture and a healthy team and healthy culture and a healthy team and healthy culture and a healthy team and healthy systems systems systems so i always gravitated more toward that so i always gravitated more toward that so i always gravitated more toward that i always felt like an executive trapped i always felt like an executive trapped i always felt like an executive trapped in a pastor's body and that's kind of in a pastor's body and that's kind of in a pastor's body and that's kind of why i'm doing what i'm doing today why i'm doing what i'm doing today why i'm doing what i'm doing today well so you have this really unique well so you have this really unique well so you have this really unique perspective of perspective of perspective of i like what you said there you're you're i like what you said there you're you're i like what you said there you're you're more interested in the more interested in the more interested in the the days between sundays right of being the days between sundays right of being the days between sundays right of being able to able to able to you know get deep into the trenches and you know get deep into the trenches and you know get deep into the trenches and help help pastors lead better and and help help pastors lead better and and help help pastors lead better and and help help help probably help business people lead probably help business people lead probably help business people lead better as well but um better as well but um better as well but um you have that different perspective of you have that different perspective of you have that different perspective of you've sat on both sides you've sat on both sides you've sat on both sides so you fully understand what lead so you fully understand what lead so you fully understand what lead pastors are dealing with and what pastors are dealing with and what pastors are dealing with and what executive pastors and church staff are executive pastors and church staff are executive pastors and church staff are dealing with but you also have others

dealing with but you also have others dealing with but you also have others you know the business side of things so you know the business side of things so you know the business side of things so when you when you when you when you're one when you're working with when you're one when you're working with when you're one when you're working with a pastor a pastor a pastor what's your approach to helping them what's your approach to helping them what's your approach to helping them lead better lead better lead better well what we don't do is try to teach well what we don't do is try to teach well what we don't do is try to teach them how to do church them how to do church them how to do church you know there are actually a lot of you know there are actually a lot of you know there are actually a lot of networks denominations and tribes that networks denominations and tribes that networks denominations and tribes that do that do that do that and i'm actually convinced almost any and i'm actually convinced almost any and i'm actually convinced almost any model will work if it's healthy model will work if it's healthy model will work if it's healthy i think there are lots of ways to do i think there are lots of ways to do i think there are lots of ways to do church lots of ways to disciple people church lots of ways to disciple people church lots of ways to disciple people lots of ways to reach lost people lots of ways to reach lost people lots of ways to reach lost people but but it really does come down to but but it really does come down to but but it really does come down to organizational health and leadership i organizational health and leadership i organizational health and leadership i believe i think believe i think believe i think i get lit up on facebook and you guys i get lit up on facebook and you guys i get lit up on facebook and you guys will really appreciate this i think will really appreciate this i think will really appreciate this i think because i say to pastors all the time because i say to pastors all the time because i say to pastors all the time there is a god element there is a god element there is a god element and there is a human element to church and there is a human element to church and there is a human element to church growth growth growth and a lot of pastors want to excuse and and a lot of pastors want to excuse and and a lot of pastors want to excuse and over spiritualize the lack of growth in over spiritualize the lack of growth in over spiritualize the lack of growth in their church their church their church and they're not willing to do the heavy and they're not willing to do the heavy and they're not willing to do the heavy lifting the hard work lifting the hard work lifting the hard work have the courageous conversations make have the courageous conversations make have the courageous conversations make the courageous decisions the courageous decisions the courageous decisions they need to make to grow jesus wants they need to make to grow jesus wants they need to make to grow jesus wants their church to grow he's waiting on their church to grow he's waiting on their church to grow he's waiting on them them them and you know what we try to do is come and you know what we try to do is come and you know what we try to do is come along give leaders courage to have the along give leaders courage to have the along give leaders courage to have the conversations conversations conversations confront the brutal facts make the confront the brutal facts make the confront the brutal facts make the courageous decisions courageous decisions courageous decisions not worry about who you're going to not worry about who you're going to not worry about who you're going to leave but who leave but who leave but who who's going to leave but who you're who's going to leave but who you're who's going to leave but who you're going to reach and going to reach and going to reach and to me the answer is simple why churches to me the answer is simple why churches to me the answer is simple why churches stop growing they choose to stop growing they choose to stop growing they choose to they choose to they they choose not to they choose to they they choose not to they choose to they they choose not to to go into the uncomfortable chaos

to go into the uncomfortable chaos to go into the uncomfortable chaos and be willing to be pruned personally and be willing to be pruned personally and be willing to be pruned personally corporately corporately corporately for the church to become everything for the church to become everything for the church to become everything jesus wants it to become jesus wants it to become jesus wants it to become so you can see why i end up in the so you can see why i end up in the so you can see why i end up in the crosshair of critics you know sometimes crosshair of critics you know sometimes crosshair of critics you know sometimes with that kind of language with that kind of language with that kind of language but i believe it i think i can defend it but i believe it i think i can defend it but i believe it i think i can defend it you know with the gospel in the new you know with the gospel in the new you know with the gospel in the new testament testament testament i really do well break that down break i really do well break that down break i really do well break that down break that that that down a little bit when you say that down a little bit when you say that down a little bit when you say that pastors are afraid to do the work or pastors are afraid to do the work or pastors are afraid to do the work or afraid to have the afraid to have the afraid to have the the courageous conversations and and to the courageous conversations and and to the courageous conversations and and to step into those step into those step into those those dangerous scary places what does those dangerous scary places what does those dangerous scary places what does that mean practically like what are some that mean practically like what are some that mean practically like what are some of those things that you would say of those things that you would say of those things that you would say hey these this is the top two or three hey these this is the top two or three hey these this is the top two or three things that i'm you know every pastor things that i'm you know every pastor things that i'm you know every pastor that i encounter who's that i encounter who's that i encounter who's you know who's in a spot where he's not you know who's in a spot where he's not you know who's in a spot where he's not where he wants to be or his church isn't where he wants to be or his church isn't where he wants to be or his church isn't healthy or he's not healthy healthy or he's not healthy healthy or he's not healthy what are the things that he's avoiding what are the things that he's avoiding what are the things that he's avoiding well you know a lot of senior pastors of well you know a lot of senior pastors of well you know a lot of senior pastors of course they want to blame the staff course they want to blame the staff course they want to blame the staff you know when when in doubt blame the you know when when in doubt blame the you know when when in doubt blame the worship leader blame worship leader blame worship leader blame blame the student pastor you know um all blame the student pastor you know um all blame the student pastor you know um all all of that when in reality you've got all of that when in reality you've got all of that when in reality you've got an insecure an insecure an insecure defensive senior pastor who defensive senior pastor who defensive senior pastor who doesn't want to be is not willing to be doesn't want to be is not willing to be doesn't want to be is not willing to be confronted himself confronted himself confronted himself you know about some things about some you know about some things about some you know about some things about some blind spots blind spots blind spots and things are usually not as healthy as and things are usually not as healthy as and things are usually not as healthy as the senior leader thinks they are the senior leader thinks they are the senior leader thinks they are yeah so thus some robust dialogue yeah so thus some robust dialogue yeah so thus some robust dialogue needs to happen you know and some needs to happen you know and some needs to happen you know and some humility needs to enter that question at humility needs to enter that question at humility needs to enter that question at the senior leader spot but then the senior leader spot but then the senior leader spot but then you know we get calls all the time from you know we get calls all the time from you know we get calls all the time from second chair third chair fourth chair second chair third chair fourth chair second chair third chair fourth chair leaders leaders leaders they're like well my senior pastor this they're like well my senior pastor this they're like well my senior pastor this and our executive team this and and our executive team this and and our executive team this and my first question is always well have

my first question is always well have my first question is always well have you told them you told them you told them what you just told me and you know what the answer is 99 out and you know what the answer is 99 out of 100 times of 100 times of 100 times well no i mean not just like you know well no i mean not just like you know well no i mean not just like you know not just like i told you and i said well not just like i told you and i said well not just like i told you and i said well the number one thing you've got to do is the number one thing you've got to do is the number one thing you've got to do is be more honest be more honest be more honest with your leader you know and so we get with your leader you know and so we get with your leader you know and so we get to go in and to go in and to go in and you know just facilitate sometimes you know just facilitate sometimes you know just facilitate sometimes referee referee referee some robust dialogue and have it in some robust dialogue and have it in some robust dialogue and have it in healthy ways healthy ways healthy ways and actually mine for some healthy and actually mine for some healthy and actually mine for some healthy conflict on teams conflict on teams conflict on teams to confront the elephants in the room to confront the elephants in the room to confront the elephants in the room because there are always some elephants because there are always some elephants because there are always some elephants in the room in the room in the room and to be willing to talk about those and to be willing to talk about those and to be willing to talk about those you know you know you know and sometimes there's their tensions and sometimes there's their tensions and sometimes there's their tensions sometimes they're people sometimes they're people sometimes they're people you know that aren't in the right seat you know that aren't in the right seat you know that aren't in the right seat or have character issues or have character issues or have character issues you know and and nobody wants to you know and and nobody wants to you know and and nobody wants to confront it or confront them confront it or confront them confront it or confront them and so you know we try to get everybody and so you know we try to get everybody and so you know we try to get everybody to become a little bit more courageous to become a little bit more courageous to become a little bit more courageous in their culture and in their in their in their culture and in their in their in their culture and in their in their dialogue as a team dialogue as a team dialogue as a team and and man revival happens on a lot of and and man revival happens on a lot of and and man revival happens on a lot of the teams we work with the teams we work with the teams we work with yeah yeah that my my pastor yeah yeah that my my pastor yeah yeah that my my pastor uh who was my boss for years he always uh who was my boss for years he always uh who was my boss for years he always said if you got to swallow a frog said if you got to swallow a frog said if you got to swallow a frog don't stare at it too long because it don't stare at it too long because it don't stare at it too long because it just gets uglier and uglier just gets uglier and uglier just gets uglier and uglier you know it does and it gets more you know it does and it gets more you know it does and it gets more difficult and more difficult you know i difficult and more difficult you know i difficult and more difficult you know i use proverbs 27 use proverbs 27 use proverbs 27 6 wounds from a friend can be trusted 6 wounds from a friend can be trusted 6 wounds from a friend can be trusted but an enemy multiplies kisses and so we but an enemy multiplies kisses and so we but an enemy multiplies kisses and so we when we when we when we work with teams we're like we don't want work with teams we're like we don't want work with teams we're like we don't want to be a team you don't want to be a team to be a team you don't want to be a team to be a team you don't want to be a team that multiplies kisses that multiplies kisses that multiplies kisses you know where we're kissing each

you know where we're kissing each you know where we're kissing each other's behinds can i say that on your other's behinds can i say that on your other's behinds can i say that on your podcast podcast podcast sure and then and then stabbing each sure and then and then stabbing each sure and then and then stabbing each other you know in the back other you know in the back other you know in the back at the same time and talking about each at the same time and talking about each at the same time and talking about each other other other you know rather than to each other and you know rather than to each other and you know rather than to each other and having meetings after the meeting having meetings after the meeting having meetings after the meeting let's cut all that out and let's start let's cut all that out and let's start let's cut all that out and let's start let's get real let's get real let's get real let's start talking to each other and let's start talking to each other and let's start talking to each other and the opposite of conflict is not peace the opposite of conflict is not peace the opposite of conflict is not peace it's artificial harmony it's artificial harmony it's artificial harmony and somehow a lot of pastors have and somehow a lot of pastors have and somehow a lot of pastors have thought you know thought you know thought you know well to have a healthy team like we well to have a healthy team like we well to have a healthy team like we shouldn't have any conflict on the team shouldn't have any conflict on the team shouldn't have any conflict on the team but but i think it's an errant way of but but i think it's an errant way of but but i think it's an errant way of looking at the gospel looking at the gospel looking at the gospel the new testament they had tons of the new testament they had tons of the new testament they had tons of conflict yeah but they handled it conflict yeah but they handled it conflict yeah but they handled it much more courageously than a lot of much more courageously than a lot of much more courageously than a lot of pastors that we've worked with over time pastors that we've worked with over time pastors that we've worked with over time it is it is remarkable to me and i've it is it is remarkable to me and i've it is it is remarkable to me and i've been a pastor been a pastor been a pastor uh and i have the opportunity the uh and i have the opportunity the uh and i have the opportunity the privilege to work with a lot of privilege to work with a lot of privilege to work with a lot of different churches different churches different churches some very very small some very very some very very small some very very some very very small some very very large um large um large um what i repeatedly find that is what i repeatedly find that is what i repeatedly find that is sometimes discouraging to me is how sometimes discouraging to me is how sometimes discouraging to me is how often often often a church staff will allow a church staff will allow a church staff will allow unhealthy patterns and unhealthy unhealthy patterns and unhealthy unhealthy patterns and unhealthy communication communication communication exist within the context of the staff exist within the context of the staff exist within the context of the staff culture that they would never culture that they would never culture that they would never allow to exist in the context of the allow to exist in the context of the allow to exist in the context of the church culture as a whole church culture as a whole church culture as a whole so you have this this tension where so you have this this tension where so you have this this tension where you know we're we're encouraging the you know we're we're encouraging the you know we're we're encouraging the family life the body life in our church family life the body life in our church family life the body life in our church to be authentic and transparent and to be authentic and transparent and to be authentic and transparent and and and have you know good communication

and and have you know good communication and and have you know good communication strong communication that we're building strong communication that we're building strong communication that we're building one another one another one another up yet uh in the offices in the corner up yet uh in the offices in the corner up yet uh in the offices in the corner of the building of the building of the building we're tearing each other down we're not we're tearing each other down we're not we're tearing each other down we're not we don't have that same we don't have that same we don't have that same openness and that same uh spirit of openness and that same uh spirit of openness and that same uh spirit of building one another up and that building one another up and that building one another up and that that can be a real discouragement to me that can be a real discouragement to me that can be a real discouragement to me when i when i discover churches that are when i when i discover churches that are when i when i discover churches that are in that space i'm sure that that's in that space i'm sure that that's in that space i'm sure that that's something that you see something that you see something that you see frequently it very much is and you know frequently it very much is and you know frequently it very much is and you know we we we i years ago as a pastor i mean i tried i years ago as a pastor i mean i tried i years ago as a pastor i mean i tried to live this out and it's why to live this out and it's why to live this out and it's why why i'm kind of coaching people to do it why i'm kind of coaching people to do it why i'm kind of coaching people to do it this day i made a covenant to my this day i made a covenant to my this day i made a covenant to my pastors my direct reports you know 20 pastors my direct reports you know 20 pastors my direct reports you know 20 years ago i'm never going to go home and years ago i'm never going to go home and years ago i'm never going to go home and say something to my spouse about you say something to my spouse about you say something to my spouse about you that i'm not willing to say to you but but guess what then that gives me but but guess what then that gives me moral authority to expect the same thing moral authority to expect the same thing moral authority to expect the same thing from you from you from you you know she's not going to listen to my you know she's not going to listen to my you know she's not going to listen to my preaching you and i'll be okay next week preaching you and i'll be okay next week preaching you and i'll be okay next week but you go home and you vent to her and but you go home and you vent to her and but you go home and you vent to her and we don't talk about it as brothers we don't talk about it as brothers we don't talk about it as brothers you know she's never gonna write take you know she's never gonna write take you know she's never gonna write take notes in one of my sermons again you notes in one of my sermons again you notes in one of my sermons again you know so don't do that to your family know so don't do that to your family know so don't do that to your family don't do that to your children don't do don't do that to your children don't do don't do that to your children don't do that to the church don't do that to the that to the church don't do that to the that to the church don't do that to the team team team hey let's talk to each other you know hey let's talk to each other you know hey let's talk to each other you know and live out what patrick lencioni calls and live out what patrick lencioni calls and live out what patrick lencioni calls the last 10 the last 10 the last 10 people say 90 of what they're thinking people say 90 of what they're thinking people say 90 of what they're thinking hold back let's build a last 10 hold back let's build a last 10 hold back let's build a last 10 culture and now we try to help teams culture and now we try to help teams culture and now we try to help teams build that build that build that and it's amazing the sense of trust and it's amazing the sense of trust and it's amazing the sense of trust and commitment and unity and synergy and commitment and unity and synergy and commitment and unity and synergy that happens

that happens that happens when we really start talking about what when we really start talking about what when we really start talking about what matters matters matters in the room yeah we've been talking a in the room yeah we've been talking a in the room yeah we've been talking a little bit about little bit about little bit about the conflict that you see as you walk the conflict that you see as you walk the conflict that you see as you walk into church can you speak to into church can you speak to into church can you speak to what's on the other side so as a what's on the other side so as a what's on the other side so as a listener is listener is listener is hearing this and going that's exactly hearing this and going that's exactly hearing this and going that's exactly what we're dealing with in our culture what we're dealing with in our culture what we're dealing with in our culture with devices have the courage of those with devices have the courage of those with devices have the courage of those conversations conversations conversations what happens after that conversation what happens after that conversation what happens after that conversation what have you experienced when that has what have you experienced when that has what have you experienced when that has happened happened happened one you you get to choose who you keep one you you get to choose who you keep one you you get to choose who you keep on your team on your team on your team you really do you know elite talent will you really do you know elite talent will you really do you know elite talent will leave leave leave if they don't have a voice and they if they don't have a voice and they if they don't have a voice and they don't feel don't feel don't feel valued and my you know senior pastors a valued and my you know senior pastors a valued and my you know senior pastors a lot of times are scared to death to just lot of times are scared to death to just lot of times are scared to death to just open it up open it up open it up because they're afraid their idea is not because they're afraid their idea is not because they're afraid their idea is not going to win the day going to win the day going to win the day and my observation is most of the time and my observation is most of the time and my observation is most of the time like leaders don't have to make the like leaders don't have to make the like leaders don't have to make the decision decision decision in the second and third chair they just in the second and third chair they just in the second and third chair they just want the value of being want the value of being want the value of being heard you know and so man if you want to heard you know and so man if you want to heard you know and so man if you want to you know we run pastors all run into you know we run pastors all run into you know we run pastors all run into pastors all the time just can't keep pastors all the time just can't keep pastors all the time just can't keep good people on their team you know good people on their team you know good people on their team you know there's like this cycle there's like this cycle there's like this cycle that runs through all the time and it's that runs through all the time and it's that runs through all the time and it's because because because their their leaders don't feel valued their their leaders don't feel valued their their leaders don't feel valued they don't feel cared for they don't feel cared for they don't feel cared for you know on their team and so i've told you know on their team and so i've told you know on their team and so i've told our leaders over the years like if our leaders over the years like if our leaders over the years like if there's there's there's there's one of two things i'm going to there's one of two things i'm going to there's one of two things i'm going to be accused of wow sean cares too much be accused of wow sean cares too much be accused of wow sean cares too much about what's going on in my area about what's going on in my area about what's going on in my area or sean really doesn't care and he's or sean really doesn't care and he's or sean really doesn't care and he's going to do what he's going to do and going to do what he's going to do and going to do what he's going to do and he's carrying he's building he's carrying he's building he's carrying he's building his kingdom you know i want to be over

his kingdom you know i want to be over his kingdom you know i want to be over here i want to care and be in your here i want to care and be in your here i want to care and be in your business too much business too much business too much and really value your opinion and get and really value your opinion and get and really value your opinion and get you to speak into what's going on you to speak into what's going on you to speak into what's going on so i would say you know retaining great so i would say you know retaining great so i would say you know retaining great talent talent talent you know as a layperson and as and as you know as a layperson and as and as you know as a layperson and as and as you know vocational you know vocational you know vocational ministers on your team and then the cool ministers on your team and then the cool ministers on your team and then the cool thing is when we start talking about thing is when we start talking about thing is when we start talking about what really matters and confronting the what really matters and confronting the what really matters and confronting the elephants in the room and fixing what's elephants in the room and fixing what's elephants in the room and fixing what's broke broke broke and killing the sacred cows and and killing the sacred cows and and killing the sacred cows and confronting confronting confronting passive aggressive behavior and toxicity passive aggressive behavior and toxicity passive aggressive behavior and toxicity and you know all artificial harmony man and you know all artificial harmony man and you know all artificial harmony man we start having we start having we start having amazing conversations like god's added amazing conversations like god's added amazing conversations like god's added the members of the body the way he sees the members of the body the way he sees the members of the body the way he sees fit fit fit we just gotta allow it to breathe you we just gotta allow it to breathe you we just gotta allow it to breathe you know and let everybody know and let everybody know and let everybody get make sure we build that culture of get make sure we build that culture of get make sure we build that culture of trust trust trust and honesty where everybody can bring and honesty where everybody can bring and honesty where everybody can bring their best ideas to the table and not their best ideas to the table and not their best ideas to the table and not fear getting fired fear getting fired fear getting fired you know for confronting what's not you know for confronting what's not you know for confronting what's not working and what they don't enjoy doing working and what they don't enjoy doing working and what they don't enjoy doing and and and help the guy who thinks he's and and and help the guy who thinks he's and and and help the guy who thinks he's gifted at this realize he's gifted at this realize he's gifted at this realize he's that's not his best gift and get him in that's not his best gift and get him in that's not his best gift and get him in the right seat on the bus the right seat on the bus the right seat on the bus um you know man church growth starts um you know man church growth starts um you know man church growth starts happening it's amazing happening it's amazing happening it's amazing so so what with this pandemic that we're so so what with this pandemic that we're so so what with this pandemic that we're experiencing what what's something that experiencing what what's something that experiencing what what's something that uh uh uh that's good that's come out of this in that's good that's come out of this in that's good that's come out of this in your opinion that you have seen as a your opinion that you have seen as a your opinion that you have seen as a result of changes literally you know result of changes literally you know result of changes literally you know churches having to pivot and go a churches having to pivot and go a churches having to pivot and go a completely different direction completely different direction completely different direction well churches haven't been historically well churches haven't been historically well churches haven't been historically good at pivoting

good at pivoting good at pivoting surprise surprise we just had our most surprise surprise we just had our most surprise surprise we just had our most innovative year and perhaps 100 years of innovative year and perhaps 100 years of innovative year and perhaps 100 years of church church church think about it i mean hundreds of think about it i mean hundreds of think about it i mean hundreds of thousands of church thousands of church thousands of church churches got a thousand percent better churches got a thousand percent better churches got a thousand percent better on their digital platforms hundreds of on their digital platforms hundreds of on their digital platforms hundreds of thousands thousands thousands got better we were behind you know got better we were behind you know got better we were behind you know it's easy to look at the top fifteen it's easy to look at the top fifteen it's easy to look at the top fifteen hundred two thousand churches in america hundred two thousand churches in america hundred two thousand churches in america and think churches are setting the pace and think churches are setting the pace and think churches are setting the pace but the other two hundred ninety eight but the other two hundred ninety eight but the other two hundred ninety eight thousand are not thousand are not thousand are not you know decades behind with their web you know decades behind with their web you know decades behind with their web presence and their social media and presence and their social media and presence and their social media and just every way they communicate you know just every way they communicate you know just every way they communicate you know to a watching world to a watching world to a watching world so we had no choice but to get better so we had no choice but to get better so we had no choice but to get better and scarcity brings innovation so we had and scarcity brings innovation so we had and scarcity brings innovation so we had to get better to get better to get better and churches have realized they're and churches have realized they're and churches have realized they're reaching more people than ever reaching more people than ever reaching more people than ever before right now you know because we had before right now you know because we had before right now you know because we had to so let's not to so let's not to so let's not lose that mentality now let's stay lose that mentality now let's stay lose that mentality now let's stay scrappy scrappy scrappy you know um so i attend you know um so i attend you know um so i attend you know one of the largest churches in you know one of the largest churches in you know one of the largest churches in north america we north america we north america we our momentum made us look better than we our momentum made us look better than we our momentum made us look better than we were we got exposed were we got exposed were we got exposed you know by some things so we had to get you know by some things so we had to get you know by some things so we had to get better had to rebuild some blocking and better had to rebuild some blocking and better had to rebuild some blocking and tackling rework some systems we had tackling rework some systems we had tackling rework some systems we had outgrown some of our systems outgrown some of our systems outgrown some of our systems and man we got it's going to make us and man we got it's going to make us and man we got it's going to make us better for the next 10 better for the next 10 better for the next 10 years perhaps lengthen the growth curve years perhaps lengthen the growth curve years perhaps lengthen the growth curve because we had no choice but to circle because we had no choice but to circle because we had no choice but to circle around and get better at on all of our

around and get better at on all of our around and get better at on all of our processes processes processes and the church is better for this god and the church is better for this god and the church is better for this god didn't cause this didn't cause this didn't cause this be clear about that but i i do believe be clear about that but i i do believe be clear about that but i i do believe he is using he is using he is using this and we'll continue to do so this and we'll continue to do so this and we'll continue to do so yeah that's really hopeful you know to yeah that's really hopeful you know to yeah that's really hopeful you know to think that uh think that uh think that uh in just a matter of weeks which was in just a matter of weeks which was in just a matter of weeks which was about a year ago about a year ago about a year ago yeah everybody had to pivot and um yeah everybody had to pivot and um yeah everybody had to pivot and um we got to see that firsthand with a lot we got to see that firsthand with a lot we got to see that firsthand with a lot of churches and i of churches and i of churches and i i think from those conversations it sure i think from those conversations it sure i think from those conversations it sure has caused has caused has caused lead pastors to ask harder questions lead pastors to ask harder questions lead pastors to ask harder questions and um you know for us at mission and um you know for us at mission and um you know for us at mission marketing we're we're all about helping marketing we're we're all about helping marketing we're we're all about helping churches churches churches reach more people digitally so we're reach more people digitally so we're reach more people digitally so we're we're going yeah we're going yeah we're going yeah yeah this is awesome because they're yeah this is awesome because they're yeah this is awesome because they're just it's not about just it's not about just it's not about them hiring us it's about them thinking them hiring us it's about them thinking them hiring us it's about them thinking differently differently differently and then and then reacting well and then and then reacting well and then and then reacting well by giving resources you know staff by giving resources you know staff by giving resources you know staff money space to get into the space money space to get into the space money space to get into the space more and more and more and that's that's more and more and more and that's that's more and more and more and that's that's been super refreshing for me been super refreshing for me been super refreshing for me i can't tell you how many pastors we've i can't tell you how many pastors we've i can't tell you how many pastors we've talked to who've said talked to who've said talked to who've said we did it we knew we did it a long time we did it we knew we did it a long time we did it we knew we did it a long time ago we put ago we put ago we put money we put resources we put staffing money we put resources we put staffing money we put resources we put staffing behind all things digital and we should behind all things digital and we should behind all things digital and we should have done it a long time ago have done it a long time ago have done it a long time ago no but sunday's coming every seven days no but sunday's coming every seven days no but sunday's coming every seven days you know you know you know when do you change when you have no when do you change when you have no when do you change when you have no other choice yeah other choice yeah other choice yeah we've been we've been telling churches we've been we've been telling churches we've been we've been telling churches for years that for years that for years that you need to be online you need to be

you need to be online you need to be you need to be online you need to be investing online you need to be investing online you need to be investing online you need to be expanding your digital footprint online expanding your digital footprint online expanding your digital footprint online because the people that god has called because the people that god has called because the people that god has called you to reach are online you to reach are online you to reach are online and to look at the way pastors and and to look at the way pastors and and to look at the way pastors and churches churches churches pivoted initially most of them didn't pivoted initially most of them didn't pivoted initially most of them didn't pivot a year ago to do better online to pivot a year ago to do better online to pivot a year ago to do better online to reach the people that they weren't reach the people that they weren't reach the people that they weren't reaching reaching reaching they pivoted to do better online to they pivoted to do better online to they pivoted to do better online to actually continue to stay connected to actually continue to stay connected to actually continue to stay connected to their own people their own people their own people and by doing so the byproduct has been and by doing so the byproduct has been and by doing so the byproduct has been wait a minute now all of a sudden we're wait a minute now all of a sudden we're wait a minute now all of a sudden we're actually paying attention to what's actually paying attention to what's actually paying attention to what's happening online and we're realizing happening online and we're realizing happening online and we're realizing that we're actually connecting with more that we're actually connecting with more that we're actually connecting with more and more people online i remember having and more people online i remember having and more people online i remember having a conversation in a conversation in a conversation in probably may or june of last year with a probably may or june of last year with a probably may or june of last year with a small church small church small church in rural pennsylvania that had started in rural pennsylvania that had started in rural pennsylvania that had started live streaming their services for the live streaming their services for the live streaming their services for the first time first time first time and i got on the call with a pastor and and i got on the call with a pastor and and i got on the call with a pastor and he said i got two he said i got two he said i got two donation checks in the mail this week donation checks in the mail this week donation checks in the mail this week one from washington state and one from one from washington state and one from one from washington state and one from minnesota minnesota minnesota i have no idea what to do with that i i have no idea what to do with that i i have no idea what to do with that i mean i said we'll deposit the checks mean i said we'll deposit the checks mean i said we'll deposit the checks that's the first thing that you want to that's the first thing that you want to that's the first thing that you want to do do do i said yeah cache it but i i you know i said yeah cache it but i i you know i said yeah cache it but i i you know that but these are all of a sudden that but these are all of a sudden that but these are all of a sudden we're seeing that you know your your we're seeing that you know your your we're seeing that you know your your microphone your megaphone as a pastor as microphone your megaphone as a pastor as microphone your megaphone as a pastor as a communicator of the gospel as a a communicator of the gospel as a a communicator of the gospel as a discipler discipler discipler has just been amplified exponentially by has just been amplified exponentially by has just been amplified exponentially by use of use of use of the internet and now it's just a matter the internet and now it's just a matter the internet and now it's just a matter of figuring out of figuring out of figuring out how to do it more strategically so we're how to do it more strategically so we're how to do it more strategically so we're not just throwing up on the internet but not just throwing up on the internet but not just throwing up on the internet but that we actually have a plan and a

that we actually have a plan and a that we actually have a plan and a strategy for utilizing it strategy for utilizing it strategy for utilizing it for real connections and real for real connections and real for real connections and real discipleship discipleship discipleship well and i know that you guys help a lot well and i know that you guys help a lot well and i know that you guys help a lot of churches with this but of churches with this but of churches with this but another thing another key learning from another thing another key learning from another thing another key learning from the pandemic was a lot of churches the pandemic was a lot of churches the pandemic was a lot of churches realized realized realized we need to do a better job communicating we need to do a better job communicating we need to do a better job communicating internally not just externally like internally not just externally like internally not just externally like church newsletters and hey come to this church newsletters and hey come to this church newsletters and hey come to this sign up for this sign up for this sign up for this show up for this hey come to this sign show up for this hey come to this sign show up for this hey come to this sign up for this rspp for this up for this rspp for this up for this rspp for this look what we're doing look what we're look what we're doing look what we're look what we're doing look what we're doing look what we're doing look at us doing look what we're doing look at us doing look what we're doing look at us look at us look at us look at us look at us look at us look at us look at us look at us look at us attend our thing join our thing that attend our thing join our thing that attend our thing join our thing that is that wears people out is that wears people out is that wears people out and a lot of church we work with realize and a lot of church we work with realize and a lot of church we work with realize well we've got to start adding value well we've got to start adding value well we've got to start adding value internally better we've got to start internally better we've got to start internally better we've got to start communicating differently communicating differently communicating differently with our church attenders and all of a with our church attenders and all of a with our church attenders and all of a sudden when there was nothing to sign up sudden when there was nothing to sign up sudden when there was nothing to sign up for for for and nothing to attend like we had and nothing to attend like we had and nothing to attend like we had nothing to say nothing to say nothing to say in our church newsletter you know that in our church newsletter you know that in our church newsletter you know that went out in email went out in email went out in email now you know and so we realized why now you know and so we realized why now you know and so we realized why don't we what if we just started adding don't we what if we just started adding don't we what if we just started adding value to families value to families value to families and oh yeah by the way ps here's and oh yeah by the way ps here's and oh yeah by the way ps here's something you can opt into and some you something you can opt into and some you something you can opt into and some you know sign up for know sign up for know sign up for and leading with value internally they and leading with value internally they and leading with value internally they they had no choice because leaders are they had no choice because leaders are they had no choice because leaders are turning over leaders are getting tired turning over leaders are getting tired turning over leaders are getting tired burned out burned out burned out feel useless you know running the feel useless you know running the feel useless you know running the programs that they used to run programs that they used to run programs that they used to run and so i feel like we're going to get and so i feel like we're going to get and so i feel like we're going to get better at internal communication better at internal communication better at internal communication you know on the back side of the site

you know on the back side of the site you know on the back side of the site and adding value to the body and adding value to the body and adding value to the body as well as adding value you know out as well as adding value you know out as well as adding value you know out there to the world and i'm excited about there to the world and i'm excited about there to the world and i'm excited about both of those both of those both of those yeah one thing that uh you know that yeah one thing that uh you know that yeah one thing that uh you know that we're having this podcast we're having this podcast we're having this podcast we're talking about the courage to lead we're talking about the courage to lead we're talking about the courage to lead it's it has been it's it has been it's it has been interesting to see when when covet broke interesting to see when when covet broke interesting to see when when covet broke and churches had to pivot and churches had to pivot and churches had to pivot and it caused lead pastors to be and it caused lead pastors to be and it caused lead pastors to be vulnerable vulnerable vulnerable and for the first time in their ministry and for the first time in their ministry and for the first time in their ministry the building was no longer that sacred the building was no longer that sacred the building was no longer that sacred cow because it didn't exist anymore cow because it didn't exist anymore cow because it didn't exist anymore could you couldn't even walk in the could you couldn't even walk in the could you couldn't even walk in the building building building and it i think it was i think it was and it i think it was i think it was and it i think it was i think it was pretty refreshing for staff because they pretty refreshing for staff because they pretty refreshing for staff because they could have the courage to say could have the courage to say could have the courage to say hey lead pastor or executive pastor hey lead pastor or executive pastor hey lead pastor or executive pastor we've got to do things different and we've got to do things different and we've got to do things different and they know this and they're in that spot they know this and they're in that spot they know this and they're in that spot where they where they where they are somewhat vulnerable to say what are are somewhat vulnerable to say what are are somewhat vulnerable to say what are we going to do how are we going to do we going to do how are we going to do we going to do how are we going to do this this this and it put everybody on the same kind of and it put everybody on the same kind of and it put everybody on the same kind of playing field if you will and i i playing field if you will and i i playing field if you will and i i got to see as we work with a lot of got to see as we work with a lot of got to see as we work with a lot of churches churches churches you know those budgets go up but those you know those budgets go up but those you know those budgets go up but those that staff to have that confidence to that staff to have that confidence to that staff to have that confidence to say say say we got to do this and and you know the we got to do this and and you know the we got to do this and and you know the lead pastor's going what do we got to do lead pastor's going what do we got to do lead pastor's going what do we got to do and i just and i just and i just i just it felt really good about that i just it felt really good about that i just it felt really good about that and as you mentioned this and as you mentioned this and as you mentioned this just a minute ago about that hopefully just a minute ago about that hopefully just a minute ago about that hopefully this momentum keeps this momentum keeps this momentum keeps keeps steam rolling ahead and don't let keeps steam rolling ahead and don't let keeps steam rolling ahead and don't let up because up because up because i think god gave us an opportunity here i think god gave us an opportunity here i think god gave us an opportunity here uh uh uh to do something pretty pretty important to do something pretty pretty important to do something pretty pretty important and and reaching more people um and and reaching more people um and and reaching more people um pretty refreshing stuff but when you

pretty refreshing stuff but when you pretty refreshing stuff but when you when with that kind of a when with that kind of a when with that kind of a you know that kind of just sharing that you know that kind of just sharing that you know that kind of just sharing that with you what uh when you think about with you what uh when you think about with you what uh when you think about where you're going and how you're going where you're going and how you're going where you're going and how you're going to continue to work with churches in the to continue to work with churches in the to continue to work with churches in the future what does that look like as you future what does that look like as you future what does that look like as you have more conversation you're probably have more conversation you're probably have more conversation you're probably using zoom like you've never before using zoom like you've never before using zoom like you've never before in person or what how do you how do you in person or what how do you how do you in person or what how do you how do you expand and reach more more pastors to expand and reach more more pastors to expand and reach more more pastors to help them help them help them well you know we talk about helping well you know we talk about helping well you know we talk about helping leaders and their teams leaders and their teams leaders and their teams grow healthier and grow faster and the grow healthier and grow faster and the grow healthier and grow faster and the order is important i'm all for the great order is important i'm all for the great order is important i'm all for the great commission commission commission just not at the expense of the great just not at the expense of the great just not at the expense of the great commandment you know so health precedes commandment you know so health precedes commandment you know so health precedes growth growth growth and if you get those out of order um and if you get those out of order um and if you get those out of order um that's when you read about them in the that's when you read about them in the that's when you read about them in the news news news you know christianity today picks up you know christianity today picks up you know christianity today picks up that one and runs with it that one and runs with it that one and runs with it you know and it sucks and cnn and the you know and it sucks and cnn and the you know and it sucks and cnn and the like like like so we got to get healthy so i mean i'm so we got to get healthy so i mean i'm so we got to get healthy so i mean i'm encouraged for pastors encouraged for pastors encouraged for pastors i think twenty-two the fall of 2021 i think twenty-two the fall of 2021 i think twenty-two the fall of 2021 you know there's opportunity for a ton you know there's opportunity for a ton you know there's opportunity for a ton of pastors to gather a hundred percent of pastors to gather a hundred percent of pastors to gather a hundred percent to two hundred percent of their original to two hundred percent of their original to two hundred percent of their original momentum momentum momentum you know right so you don't presume on you know right so you don't presume on you know right so you don't presume on growth you get prepared for growth growth you get prepared for growth growth you get prepared for growth so right now is a great opportunity so right now is a great opportunity so right now is a great opportunity you're going to see a little spike on you're going to see a little spike on you're going to see a little spike on easter and all the pastors are going to easter and all the pastors are going to easter and all the pastors are going to feel like god loves them again feel like god loves them again feel like god loves them again you know then memorial day happens in you know then memorial day happens in you know then memorial day happens in 4th of july we think he's 4th of july we think he's 4th of july we think he's forgotten us all over you know we won't forgotten us all over you know we won't forgotten us all over you know we won't be able to find people this summer be able to find people this summer be able to find people this summer but they're going to be around but the but they're going to be around but the but they're going to be around but the churches that are working on their churches that are working on their churches that are working on their culture culture culture and working on getting the right people and working on getting the right people and working on getting the right people on the bus on the bus on the bus wrong people off the bus coven provides

wrong people off the bus coven provides wrong people off the bus coven provides an excuse for that an excuse for that an excuse for that buttoning up their processes and their buttoning up their processes and their buttoning up their processes and their systems if we're prepared for growth systems if we're prepared for growth systems if we're prepared for growth this fall when everybody comes crawling this fall when everybody comes crawling this fall when everybody comes crawling out of the beach in the mountains out of the beach in the mountains out of the beach in the mountains you know the lord is looking for you know the lord is looking for you know the lord is looking for churches to trust churches to trust churches to trust lost people i just believe that i can lost people i just believe that i can lost people i just believe that i can trust them trust them trust them i can trust them it won't crush them i can trust them it won't crush them i can trust them it won't crush them they'll be good stewards of it they'll be good stewards of it they'll be good stewards of it you know so our whole posture to answer you know so our whole posture to answer you know so our whole posture to answer your question occurs the latest helping your question occurs the latest helping your question occurs the latest helping pastors get prepared pastors get prepared pastors get prepared for a potential great harvest this fall for a potential great harvest this fall for a potential great harvest this fall now we got six months to get you know now we got six months to get you know now we got six months to get you know get ready get ready get ready um and we ought to be able to do that um and we ought to be able to do that um and we ought to be able to do that but we'll be able to get prepared to but we'll be able to get prepared to but we'll be able to get prepared to handle handle handle more uh come who knows how more uh come who knows how more uh come who knows how large the lord wants the church to grow large the lord wants the church to grow large the lord wants the church to grow that's not our job that's not our job that's not our job our job is to get prepared for whatever our job is to get prepared for whatever our job is to get prepared for whatever he wants to do he wants to do he wants to do and that's what we're trying to help and that's what we're trying to help and that's what we're trying to help pastors do just get postured pastors do just get postured pastors do just get postured for growth get prepared to handle more for growth get prepared to handle more for growth get prepared to handle more and then let's see what jesus and then let's see what jesus and then let's see what jesus does sean let me let me ask you a does sean let me let me ask you a does sean let me let me ask you a question you know question you know question you know we the three of us it's clear i think we the three of us it's clear i think we the three of us it's clear i think all of us are kind of excited all of us are kind of excited all of us are kind of excited by what we see as potential um by what we see as potential um by what we see as potential um we all know churches that have uh we all know churches that have uh we all know churches that have uh benefited significantly from the pivot benefited significantly from the pivot benefited significantly from the pivot to a stronger online presence stronger to a stronger online presence stronger to a stronger online presence stronger online ministry online ministry online ministry uh we we've talked to many churches that uh we we've talked to many churches that uh we we've talked to many churches that 2020 was 2020 was 2020 was one of their best years financially in one of their best years financially in one of their best years financially in spite of the pandemic spite of the pandemic spite of the pandemic yeah but for as for as many of those yeah but for as for as many of those yeah but for as for as many of those churches and as many of those pastors

churches and as many of those pastors churches and as many of those pastors who are saying you know uh jehovah jireh who are saying you know uh jehovah jireh who are saying you know uh jehovah jireh the lord's provided we're doing well the lord's provided we're doing well the lord's provided we're doing well there are a lot of beat up pastors out there are a lot of beat up pastors out there are a lot of beat up pastors out there there there and it might not even necessarily be and it might not even necessarily be and it might not even necessarily be because their because their because their attendance dropped or their offerings attendance dropped or their offerings attendance dropped or their offerings dropped but dropped but dropped but obviously uh coveted and the political obviously uh coveted and the political obviously uh coveted and the political climate climate climate and social issues have created so much and social issues have created so much and social issues have created so much tension you know how many times yeah you tension you know how many times yeah you tension you know how many times yeah you know i'm on social media a little bit know i'm on social media a little bit know i'm on social media a little bit and you just hear pastor after pastor and you just hear pastor after pastor and you just hear pastor after pastor say say say you know if i if i do this i'm wrong you know if i if i do this i'm wrong you know if i if i do this i'm wrong if i do this i'm wrong how do i figure if i do this i'm wrong how do i figure if i do this i'm wrong how do i figure out what to do out what to do out what to do as you encounter some of these pastors as you encounter some of these pastors as you encounter some of these pastors that are struggling in this space that that are struggling in this space that that are struggling in this space that maybe they've lost maybe they've lost maybe they've lost some loyalty or lost confidence even in some loyalty or lost confidence even in some loyalty or lost confidence even in their own ability to lead because of their own ability to lead because of their own ability to lead because of those tensions how are you coaching them those tensions how are you coaching them those tensions how are you coaching them in those spaces in those spaces in those spaces well i i think i heard henry cloud say well i i think i heard henry cloud say well i i think i heard henry cloud say this you know that every pastor right this you know that every pastor right this you know that every pastor right now is dealing with some ptsd now is dealing with some ptsd now is dealing with some ptsd you know and some and and there's man you know and some and and there's man you know and some and and there's man wow trauma stress 2020 hello wow trauma stress 2020 hello wow trauma stress 2020 hello so the struggle is real i think so the struggle is real i think so the struggle is real i think sometimes the reason why pastors break sometimes the reason why pastors break sometimes the reason why pastors break down down down and quit suddenly or moral failure out and quit suddenly or moral failure out and quit suddenly or moral failure out you know it's an escape frankly you know it's an escape frankly you know it's an escape frankly is because they weren't willing to admit is because they weren't willing to admit is because they weren't willing to admit hey hey hey i'm grieving i'm hurting i'm grieving i'm hurting i'm grieving i'm hurting people have left they were my friends people have left they were my friends people have left they were my friends and now when i see them in the and now when i see them in the and now when i see them in the restaurant down the street they treat me restaurant down the street they treat me restaurant down the street they treat me differently differently differently and i'm hurting you know and of course

and i'm hurting you know and of course and i'm hurting you know and of course you know god's people the israelites you know god's people the israelites you know god's people the israelites they had a time of grieving a they had a time of grieving a they had a time of grieving a public symbol of grieving it's called public symbol of grieving it's called public symbol of grieving it's called sackcloth and ashes sackcloth and ashes sackcloth and ashes you know they would literally sit out you know they would literally sit out you know they would literally sit out publicly and and grieve and let publicly and and grieve and let publicly and and grieve and let everybody know and just leave me alone everybody know and just leave me alone everybody know and just leave me alone you know i don't i just need to be with you know i don't i just need to be with you know i don't i just need to be with god i need to process my emotions and i god i need to process my emotions and i god i need to process my emotions and i need to grieve need to grieve need to grieve don't give me cliche you know so i think don't give me cliche you know so i think don't give me cliche you know so i think pastors right now pastors right now pastors right now need to say okay we're we survived to need to say okay we're we survived to need to say okay we're we survived to this this this okay now we gotta grieve a little bit okay now we gotta grieve a little bit okay now we gotta grieve a little bit okay but then okay but then okay but then there's that time when cyclothin that there's that time when cyclothin that there's that time when cyclothin that you get up out of the sackcloth and you get up out of the sackcloth and you get up out of the sackcloth and ashes you dust yourself off ashes you dust yourself off ashes you dust yourself off and you stop focusing on the loss and you stop focusing on the loss and you stop focusing on the loss and you start focusing on the future and and you start focusing on the future and and you start focusing on the future and we've been telling pastors hey we've been telling pastors hey we've been telling pastors hey there's going to come a time soon when there's going to come a time soon when there's going to come a time soon when you got to get up out of the sackcloth you got to get up out of the sackcloth you got to get up out of the sackcloth and ashes and ashes and ashes you got to stop focusing on who's left you got to stop focusing on who's left you got to stop focusing on who's left and the staff coup that happened last and the staff coup that happened last and the staff coup that happened last year year year three years ago and let's start talking three years ago and let's start talking three years ago and let's start talking about about about who we're going to reach some have who we're going to reach some have who we're going to reach some have stayed and that's a miracle stayed and that's a miracle stayed and that's a miracle you know if they knew everything like we you know if they knew everything like we you know if they knew everything like we knew everything they might leave too knew everything they might leave too knew everything they might leave too but some people have left i mean have but some people have left i mean have but some people have left i mean have stayed and we've got an army stayed and we've got an army stayed and we've got an army so let's just let's just call it you so let's just let's just call it you so let's just let's just call it you know know know plug in the name church 2.0 and let's go plug in the name church 2.0 and let's go plug in the name church 2.0 and let's go let's start you know let's restart the let's start you know let's restart the let's start you know let's restart the church let's reboot the church church let's reboot the church church let's reboot the church and let's let's storm you know hell with and let's let's storm you know hell with and let's let's storm you know hell with a water gun a water gun a water gun and that's what we're trying to help

and that's what we're trying to help and that's what we're trying to help pastors get focused on right now so it's pastors get focused on right now so it's pastors get focused on right now so it's both embracing your emotions both embracing your emotions both embracing your emotions while at the same time realizing there while at the same time realizing there while at the same time realizing there needs to come a day needs to come a day needs to come a day when i block all of that out of you and when i block all of that out of you and when i block all of that out of you and forget what's behind the string toward forget what's behind the string toward forget what's behind the string toward the prize the prize the prize again and go for it and go for it again and go for it and go for it again and go for it and go for it yeah you know it's interesting that you yeah you know it's interesting that you yeah you know it's interesting that you say that sean i you know the lord's been say that sean i you know the lord's been say that sean i you know the lord's been teaching me through a personal trial teaching me through a personal trial teaching me through a personal trial that my family has been going through that my family has been going through that my family has been going through lately and lately and lately and you know there there is a time when you know there there is a time when you know there there is a time when we're when we find ourselves we're when we find ourselves we're when we find ourselves all of a sudden in the valley of the all of a sudden in the valley of the all of a sudden in the valley of the shadow of death whatever that means for shadow of death whatever that means for shadow of death whatever that means for you and whatever suffering whatever you and whatever suffering whatever you and whatever suffering whatever trial whatever challenges you're facing trial whatever challenges you're facing trial whatever challenges you're facing and there's a natural season and we see and there's a natural season and we see and there's a natural season and we see this through the the this through the the this through the the psalms where we ask question the psalms where we ask question the psalms where we ask question the question why question why question why why why why why does this have to happen why why why why does this have to happen why why why why does this have to happen to me why why am i in this place to me why why am i in this place to me why why am i in this place you know how did i end up here and you know how did i end up here and you know how did i end up here and the lesson that the lord has really been the lesson that the lord has really been the lesson that the lord has really been teaching me is that teaching me is that teaching me is that it's okay to spend time asking that it's okay to spend time asking that it's okay to spend time asking that question but question but question but there does come a time where you have to there does come a time where you have to there does come a time where you have to change the question and the question change the question and the question change the question and the question that you begin to ask is that you begin to ask is that you begin to ask is where do we go from here and and i think where do we go from here and and i think where do we go from here and and i think that there are a lot of pastors in a lot that there are a lot of pastors in a lot that there are a lot of pastors in a lot of churches of churches of churches that have kind of they've spent that that have kind of they've spent that that have kind of they've spent that time in that time in that time in that season of mourning sackcloth and ashes season of mourning sackcloth and ashes season of mourning sackcloth and ashes where it's not been easy it's been where it's not been easy it's been where it's not been easy it's been really hard really hard really hard and it's okay to grieve that but you and it's okay to grieve that but you and it's okay to grieve that but you can't stay in that can't stay in that can't stay in that grief state forever at some point you grief state forever at some point you grief state forever at some point you have to begin to say okay have to begin to say okay have to begin to say okay where do we go from here lord where do where do we go from here lord where do where do we go from here lord where do we go from here what are the next we go from here what are the next we go from here what are the next steps forward because it's not god's

steps forward because it's not god's steps forward because it's not god's desire for that church to stay stuck to desire for that church to stay stuck to desire for that church to stay stuck to stay broken stay broken stay broken to stay unhealthy to stay ineffective to stay unhealthy to stay ineffective to stay unhealthy to stay ineffective in their ministry reach it's god's in their ministry reach it's god's in their ministry reach it's god's desire for that church desire for that church desire for that church to actually reflect his glory and bring to actually reflect his glory and bring to actually reflect his glory and bring his good news to the people in the his good news to the people in the his good news to the people in the community that he's called them to reach community that he's called them to reach community that he's called them to reach so so so um that's just as you said that i just um that's just as you said that i just um that's just as you said that i just realized you know that's realized you know that's realized you know that's that's work that god's been doing in my that's work that god's been doing in my that's work that god's been doing in my life personally individually and it in life personally individually and it in life personally individually and it in it i think you know maybe there's a it i think you know maybe there's a it i think you know maybe there's a pastor out there that just needs to hear pastor out there that just needs to hear pastor out there that just needs to hear that that just needs to hear that that that just needs to hear that that that just needs to hear that it's okay to ask the question why but at it's okay to ask the question why but at it's okay to ask the question why but at some point you have to begin to ask the some point you have to begin to ask the some point you have to begin to ask the question question question where do we go from here yeah we talk where do we go from here yeah we talk where do we go from here yeah we talk about moving from why about moving from why about moving from why to what now so what and what now you to what now so what and what now you to what now so what and what now you know know know and i tell these pastors let's keep this and i tell these pastors let's keep this and i tell these pastors let's keep this in mind okay in mind okay in mind okay they'll be unpacking you know what they'll be unpacking you know what they'll be unpacking you know what happened and this person that left and happened and this person that left and happened and this person that left and this person that got mad and this thing this person that got mad and this thing this person that got mad and this thing that happened three years ago and that happened three years ago and that happened three years ago and well there's not a single person that well there's not a single person that well there's not a single person that visits your church visits your church visits your church for the first time this sunday online or for the first time this sunday online or for the first time this sunday online or in person in person in person that gives a care about anything you that gives a care about anything you that gives a care about anything you just told me just told me just told me they don't care about any of that stuff they don't care about any of that stuff they don't care about any of that stuff their marriage is on the rocks their marriage is on the rocks their marriage is on the rocks you know their middle school daughters you know their middle school daughters you know their middle school daughters having suicidal tendencies and cutting having suicidal tendencies and cutting having suicidal tendencies and cutting yourself yourself yourself like we don't have time for all of that like we don't have time for all of that like we don't have time for all of that drama drama drama and to sit in that forever because and to sit in that forever because and to sit in that forever because people are coming people are coming people are coming this sunday and are going to engage with this sunday and are going to engage with this sunday and are going to engage with us and going to give jesus in the church us and going to give jesus in the church us and going to give jesus in the church one more shot we got to get ready and one more shot we got to get ready and one more shot we got to get ready and they don't care about all this stuff up they don't care about all this stuff up they don't care about all this stuff up under the hood they're looking for hope

under the hood they're looking for hope under the hood they're looking for hope and the churches that kind of get and the churches that kind of get and the churches that kind of get focused you know out of all that minutia focused you know out of all that minutia focused you know out of all that minutia and all that drama and the hurt and all that drama and the hurt and all that drama and the hurt and can pull themselves out of that and and can pull themselves out of that and and can pull themselves out of that and really get focused on really get focused on really get focused on you know that family that could show up you know that family that could show up you know that family that could show up online or in person this sunday online or in person this sunday online or in person this sunday and give jesus and the church another and give jesus and the church another and give jesus and the church another shot there's power to that shot there's power to that shot there's power to that power to that and realizing they don't power to that and realizing they don't power to that and realizing they don't care about all this other stuff care about all this other stuff care about all this other stuff they don't know and they don't see what they don't know and they don't see what they don't know and they don't see what we see they're just broken and they need we see they're just broken and they need we see they're just broken and they need help help help yeah and there's a lot of up there's yeah and there's a lot of up there's yeah and there's a lot of up there's more opportunity to be salt and light more opportunity to be salt and light more opportunity to be salt and light than ever before is the church than ever before is the church than ever before is the church yeah yeah and i think from you from this yeah yeah and i think from you from this yeah yeah and i think from you from this season we're in season we're in season we're in it it sounds and it feels like it it sounds and it feels like it it sounds and it feels like you know this this year latter part of you know this this year latter part of you know this this year latter part of this year is going to be this year is going to be this year is going to be hopefully lord willing some kind of a hopefully lord willing some kind of a hopefully lord willing some kind of a little bit of a revival as people little bit of a revival as people little bit of a revival as people find this normal uh whatever that is and find this normal uh whatever that is and find this normal uh whatever that is and uh i think the churches are that are uh i think the churches are that are uh i think the churches are that are they're actually thinking that they're actually thinking that they're actually thinking that planning for that they're in good planning for that they're in good planning for that they're in good company you know they're they're the company you know they're they're the company you know they're they're the ones that are ones that are ones that are i think going to see the fruit from that i think going to see the fruit from that i think going to see the fruit from that and and and as just to kind of echo what you guys as just to kind of echo what you guys as just to kind of echo what you guys were saying it seems like were saying it seems like were saying it seems like when churches realized when this when churches realized when this when churches realized when this happened yet attendance was off and we happened yet attendance was off and we happened yet attendance was off and we couldn't have events but giving still couldn't have events but giving still couldn't have events but giving still was was was pretty solid people are still sticking pretty solid people are still sticking pretty solid people are still sticking around like they can't come around like they can't come around like they can't come but they they're tuning in online and but they they're tuning in online and but they they're tuning in online and they're still committed that's that's a they're still committed that's that's a they're still committed that's that's a certainly a phew kind of a moment certainly a phew kind of a moment certainly a phew kind of a moment for to recognize that it's still okay for to recognize that it's still okay for to recognize that it's still okay god's still in control god's still in control god's still in control you know it's his church it's you know you know it's his church it's you know you know it's his church it's you know we're we're stewards and we're we're we're stewards and we're we're we're stewards and we're shepherding as as best we can

shepherding as as best we can shepherding as as best we can and i look forward to you know the rest and i look forward to you know the rest and i look forward to you know the rest of this year as of this year as of this year as as a as a result of a lot of as a as a result of a lot of as a as a result of a lot of careful planning and prayer and and like careful planning and prayer and and like careful planning and prayer and and like you said just kind of you said just kind of you said just kind of moving getting out of where we were and moving getting out of where we were and moving getting out of where we were and moving towards the future and so moving towards the future and so moving towards the future and so that's pretty exciting for me um that's pretty exciting for me um that's pretty exciting for me um so so you're you're a leader and that so so you're you're a leader and that so so you're you're a leader and that you bring you bring you bring uh other pastors in your counseling and uh other pastors in your counseling and uh other pastors in your counseling and coaching and encouraging other pastors coaching and encouraging other pastors coaching and encouraging other pastors where do you get some of your where do you get some of your where do you get some of your inspiration inspiration inspiration well um i want to quit every monday just well um i want to quit every monday just well um i want to quit every monday just like everybody else like everybody else like everybody else i tell pastors don't ever quit on monday i tell pastors don't ever quit on monday i tell pastors don't ever quit on monday you know it usually gets better on you know it usually gets better on you know it usually gets better on tuesday tuesday tuesday you know so to me it's one of the great you know so to me it's one of the great you know so to me it's one of the great values of coaching you know i've had values of coaching you know i've had values of coaching you know i've had great great great coaches in my life uh john maxwell's coaches in my life uh john maxwell's coaches in my life uh john maxwell's former right-hand guy former right-hand guy former right-hand guy dan ryland you know guy you guys are dan ryland you know guy you guys are dan ryland you know guy you guys are probably familiar with probably familiar with probably familiar with over at 12 stone church sam chan even over at 12 stone church sam chan even over at 12 stone church sam chan even andy stanley for a season chris hodge is andy stanley for a season chris hodge is andy stanley for a season chris hodge is my pastor now just my pastor now just my pastor now just i can't tell you how many times i went i can't tell you how many times i went i can't tell you how many times i went into this conversation with my tail into this conversation with my tail into this conversation with my tail between my legs between my legs between my legs you know discouraged defeated you know discouraged defeated you know discouraged defeated disillusioned disillusioned disillusioned you know we tend to overestimate what we you know we tend to overestimate what we you know we tend to overestimate what we can do in a short period of time and can do in a short period of time and can do in a short period of time and underestimate what we do in a long underestimate what we do in a long underestimate what we do in a long period of time period of time period of time you know and so so the biggest mistake you know and so so the biggest mistake you know and so so the biggest mistake pastors make pastors make pastors make on the contrary is isolation on the contrary is isolation on the contrary is isolation you know that's why pride goes before a you know that's why pride goes before a you know that's why pride goes before a fall because you're not willing to admit fall because you're not willing to admit fall because you're not willing to admit you're struggling you're struggling you're struggling so i'm always looking for ways to you so i'm always looking for ways to you so i'm always looking for ways to you know be in a relationship with someone know be in a relationship with someone know be in a relationship with someone who can encourage me give me permission

who can encourage me give me permission who can encourage me give me permission believes in me believes in me believes in me so i just i have my knights of the round so i just i have my knights of the round so i just i have my knights of the round table you know that i call table you know that i call table you know that i call when stuff hits the fan and even when when stuff hits the fan and even when when stuff hits the fan and even when it's not it's not it's not you know to process through you know to process through you know to process through conversations and then i'm always conversations and then i'm always conversations and then i'm always reading i'm always stewarding reading i'm always stewarding reading i'm always stewarding you know my own mind i'm reading craig you know my own mind i'm reading craig you know my own mind i'm reading craig groeschel's groeschel's groeschel's um latest book winning the war in the um latest book winning the war in the um latest book winning the war in the mind you know mind you know mind you know and i battle you know spiritually every and i battle you know spiritually every and i battle you know spiritually every single day single day single day and um i tell pastors all the time if and um i tell pastors all the time if and um i tell pastors all the time if you think about it like you think about it like you think about it like if god called you to do this if you know if god called you to do this if you know if god called you to do this if you know if that's a big if if that's a big if if that's a big if sometimes it's you know it's not the sometimes it's you know it's not the sometimes it's you know it's not the holy spirit it's testosterone when we go holy spirit it's testosterone when we go holy spirit it's testosterone when we go to do something as men to do something as men to do something as men but if god called you to do this and you but if god called you to do this and you but if god called you to do this and you quit on it just because you're quit on it just because you're quit on it just because you're discouraged discouraged discouraged that is the essence of missing the mark that is the essence of missing the mark that is the essence of missing the mark so you never quit that's why you never so you never quit that's why you never so you never quit that's why you never quit in the dip you never quit when quit in the dip you never quit when quit in the dip you never quit when you're tired you never quit when you're you're tired you never quit when you're you're tired you never quit when you're discouraged discouraged discouraged you know what do you do you buckle down you know what do you do you buckle down you know what do you do you buckle down you do spiritual warfare you do spiritual warfare you do spiritual warfare and you surround yourself with some and you surround yourself with some and you surround yourself with some people who believe in you people who believe in you people who believe in you that can help you get up out of the that can help you get up out of the that can help you get up out of the ashes you know dust yourself off ashes you know dust yourself off ashes you know dust yourself off and and get back in the game i lived and and get back in the game i lived and and get back in the game i lived this i've had to this i've had to this i've had to live this and learn to run at a healthy live this and learn to run at a healthy live this and learn to run at a healthy rhythm rhythm rhythm and and and surround myself with people and and and surround myself with people and and and surround myself with people who believe in me and that are for me who believe in me and that are for me who believe in me and that are for me and not listen to your critics and your and not listen to your critics and your and not listen to your critics and your naysayers and your skeptics and your naysayers and your skeptics and your naysayers and your skeptics and your haters haters haters and go with the goers the people that and go with the goers the people that and go with the goers the people that are for you and there's power in that are for you and there's power in that are for you and there's power in that there's great power in that and so i there's great power in that and so i there's great power in that and so i call it your spiritual swagger call it your spiritual swagger call it your spiritual swagger you know not arrogance but we need some

you know not arrogance but we need some you know not arrogance but we need some spiritual swagger the confidence and the spiritual swagger the confidence and the spiritual swagger the confidence and the gifts that god's given us gifts that god's given us gifts that god's given us and willingness to use them for his and willingness to use them for his and willingness to use them for his glory well said yeah thanks thanks for sharing well said yeah thanks thanks for sharing that sean that's uh that sean that's uh that sean that's uh that's pretty personal and i i that's pretty personal and i i that's pretty personal and i i appreciate that um appreciate that um appreciate that um we want to kind of wrap things up here we want to kind of wrap things up here we want to kind of wrap things up here and i and i and i want to give you an opportunity to uh want to give you an opportunity to uh want to give you an opportunity to uh just share just share just share with our listeners um you've written a with our listeners um you've written a with our listeners um you've written a couple of books both of which i've read couple of books both of which i've read couple of books both of which i've read and i want you to kind of share a little and i want you to kind of share a little and i want you to kind of share a little bit about those books that you've bit about those books that you've bit about those books that you've written written written and also let people know how they can and also let people know how they can and also let people know how they can connect with you you create connect with you you create connect with you you create a boatload of content um online a boatload of content um online a boatload of content um online and you provide a lot of stuff that is and you provide a lot of stuff that is and you provide a lot of stuff that is helpful helpful helpful and free for pastors and church leaders and free for pastors and church leaders and free for pastors and church leaders who are are looking to just who are are looking to just who are are looking to just improve in their leadership and grow a improve in their leadership and grow a improve in their leadership and grow a healthier team but you also healthier team but you also healthier team but you also offer services and coaching services offer services and coaching services offer services and coaching services that can help them kind of level that up that can help them kind of level that up that can help them kind of level that up why don't you share a little bit both why don't you share a little bit both why don't you share a little bit both about the books that you've written and about the books that you've written and about the books that you've written and then also about how people can connect then also about how people can connect then also about how people can connect with you and uh how courage to lead can with you and uh how courage to lead can with you and uh how courage to lead can can help local church pastors can help local church pastors can help local church pastors sure thanks man um one you know the sure thanks man um one you know the sure thanks man um one you know the books just flowed out of years of books just flowed out of years of books just flowed out of years of coaching we just took years of coaching coaching we just took years of coaching coaching we just took years of coaching and put it in you know the and put it in you know the and put it in you know the personal leadership side measuring personal leadership side measuring personal leadership side measuring success you know your path to success you know your path to success you know your path to significant satisfaction and leading significant satisfaction and leading significant satisfaction and leading yourself to the next level yourself to the next level yourself to the next level and then be mean about the vision and then be mean about the vision and then be mean about the vision nailing down the vision nailing down the vision nailing down the vision drilling down getting clearer about the drilling down getting clearer about the drilling down getting clearer about the vision with your team drilling it down vision with your team drilling it down vision with your team drilling it down to every level of the organization to every level of the organization to every level of the organization as a ministry or a marketplace leader as a ministry or a marketplace leader as a ministry or a marketplace leader you know it works both of them are you know it works both of them are you know it works both of them are written to both written to both written to both so it's a great resource for pastors to

so it's a great resource for pastors to so it's a great resource for pastors to give you know high capacity people in give you know high capacity people in give you know high capacity people in their church their church their church to invest in them as well but honestly to invest in them as well but honestly to invest in them as well but honestly that just flows out of our coaching at that just flows out of our coaching at that just flows out of our coaching at courage lead.com and our content courage lead.com and our content courage lead.com and our content you know is put out there free to you know is put out there free to you know is put out there free to hopefully show the hopefully show the hopefully show the value that we can provide to be their value that we can provide to be their value that we can provide to be their coach you know we put up we put a coach you know we put up we put a coach you know we put up we put a pastor coach on retainer one-on-one pastor coach on retainer one-on-one pastor coach on retainer one-on-one for a pastor and their leadership team for a pastor and their leadership team for a pastor and their leadership team you know and you know and you know and that's what we love to do and serve guys that's what we love to do and serve guys that's what we love to do and serve guys and it's all housed there at courage and it's all housed there at courage and it's all housed there at courage delete.com all right well i'm gonna link to a whole all right well i'm gonna link to a whole bunch of stuff in the show notes because bunch of stuff in the show notes because bunch of stuff in the show notes because you just have you just have you just have so you have so much content that's uh so you have so much content that's uh so you have so much content that's uh available available available and and helpful for people and uh sean and and helpful for people and uh sean and and helpful for people and uh sean we really appreciate you carving out the we really appreciate you carving out the we really appreciate you carving out the time time time for us today um as we we talked a little for us today um as we we talked a little for us today um as we we talked a little bit before we bit before we bit before we uh started recording that um you know a uh started recording that um you know a uh started recording that um you know a lot of what we do in terms of the way lot of what we do in terms of the way lot of what we do in terms of the way that we that we that we you know what the way we resource you know what the way we resource you know what the way we resource churches is through a lot of churches is through a lot of churches is through a lot of digital communication internal external digital communication internal external digital communication internal external digital marketing and that sort of thing digital marketing and that sort of thing digital marketing and that sort of thing but we know that we have a a lot of but we know that we have a a lot of but we know that we have a a lot of folks listening to this podcast folks listening to this podcast folks listening to this podcast who will benefit really greatly from the who will benefit really greatly from the who will benefit really greatly from the insight and the things that you've insight and the things that you've insight and the things that you've shared today and uh shared today and uh shared today and uh lord willing if there's a pastor that's lord willing if there's a pastor that's lord willing if there's a pastor that's out there listening who needs a coach out there listening who needs a coach out there listening who needs a coach needs some encouragement needs someone needs some encouragement needs someone needs some encouragement needs someone to help them to help them to help them rethink the way that they're leading uh rethink the way that they're leading uh rethink the way that they're leading uh help them help them help them rethink the way that their team is rethink the way that their team is rethink the way that their team is functioning and operating together boy functioning and operating together boy functioning and operating together boy we're gonna send them your way we really we're gonna send them your way we really we're gonna send them your way we really hope that they'll they'll reach out and hope that they'll they'll reach out and hope that they'll they'll reach out and connect with you connect with you connect with you god bless you guys keep doing what god bless you guys keep doing what god bless you guys keep doing what you're doing you're doing you're doing we'll do thanks sean appreciate it thank

we'll do thanks sean appreciate it thank we'll do thanks sean appreciate it thank you sean you sean you sean [Music]