Advice For Communicating Change in the Local Church | Caitlin Van Wagoner

my previous role i did as you know as i my previous role i did as you know as i mentioned before brand strategy i worked mentioned before brand strategy i worked mentioned before brand strategy i worked for fortune 10 and brands huge brands for fortune 10 and brands huge brands for fortune 10 and brands huge brands highly corporate and so tried to bring highly corporate and so tried to bring highly corporate and so tried to bring that corporate mentality to the church that corporate mentality to the church that corporate mentality to the church and communications in the church is a and communications in the church is a and communications in the church is a different beast it's a different it's a different beast it's a different it's a different beast it's a different it's a different opportunity it's an different opportunity it's an different opportunity it's an opportunity for care it's a means by opportunity for care it's a means by opportunity for care it's a means by which you disciple your people that which you disciple your people that which you disciple your people that doesn't mean we don't use uh strive for doesn't mean we don't use uh strive for doesn't mean we don't use uh strive for excellence or use best practices or do excellence or use best practices or do excellence or use best practices or do all the same things um but if there's a all the same things um but if there's a all the same things um but if there's a different layer to it different layer to it different layer to it hey welcome to episode four of the hey welcome to episode four of the hey welcome to episode four of the second season of the church growth second season of the church growth second season of the church growth interviews podcast i'm bart blair a uh interviews podcast i'm bart blair a uh interviews podcast i'm bart blair a uh church growth consultant coach digital church growth consultant coach digital church growth consultant coach digital strategist strat strategist that didn't strategist strat strategist that didn't strategist strat strategist that didn't come out very well but that's what i do come out very well but that's what i do come out very well but that's what i do i help churches and jason our ceo at i help churches and jason our ceo at i help churches and jason our ceo at mission market marketing he also helps mission market marketing he also helps mission market marketing he also helps churches i love helping churches it is churches i love helping churches it is churches i love helping churches it is so much fun to be uh just talking with so much fun to be uh just talking with so much fun to be uh just talking with churches all day long every day and it churches all day long every day and it churches all day long every day and it never gets old because it's just never gets old because it's just never gets old because it's just actually getting energized by it uh actually getting energized by it uh actually getting energized by it uh being able to just share and and lean on being able to just share and and lean on being able to just share and and lean on and sometimes be the shoulder that they and sometimes be the shoulder that they and sometimes be the shoulder that they cry on because they're going through cry on because they're going through cry on because they're going through hard seasons or whatever it may be but hard seasons or whatever it may be but hard seasons or whatever it may be but it's a blast to talk with churches it's a blast to talk with churches it's a blast to talk with churches and today uh we get to talk to a great and today uh we get to talk to a great and today uh we get to talk to a great great leader in a very influential great leader in a very influential great leader in a very influential church church church caitlin van wagonier uh caitlyn van caitlin van wagonier uh caitlyn van caitlin van wagonier uh caitlyn van wagner is the senior communication wagner is the senior communication wagner is the senior communication director this chur this church and her director this chur this church and her director this chur this church and her staff is so big she's the senior staff is so big she's the senior staff is so big she's the senior communication director they have another communication director they have another communication director they have another communication director underneath her communication director underneath her communication director underneath her caitlyn is an amazing leader um she's caitlyn is an amazing leader um she's caitlyn is an amazing leader um she's been in this position for like five

been in this position for like five been in this position for like five years at watermark church watermark's a years at watermark church watermark's a years at watermark church watermark's a huge church and chuckle our chuck huge church and chuckle our chuck huge church and chuckle our chuck bart will spend a second talking about bart will spend a second talking about bart will spend a second talking about that that that chuck's on our team sorry about that chuck's on our team sorry about that chuck's on our team sorry about that chuck yeah chuck and chuck and i don't chuck yeah chuck and chuck and i don't chuck yeah chuck and chuck and i don't look alike sound alike or think of like look alike sound alike or think of like look alike sound alike or think of like i don't know where that came from i don't know where that came from i don't know where that came from it's awesome it's awesome it's awesome but but so caitlyn she talks about some but but so caitlyn she talks about some but but so caitlyn she talks about some uh what she's done to to grow and lead uh what she's done to to grow and lead uh what she's done to to grow and lead this team over the last five years and this team over the last five years and this team over the last five years and so if you're in the communication so if you're in the communication so if you're in the communication director role or or you're aspiring to director role or or you're aspiring to director role or or you're aspiring to be or you're a leader that's looking to be or you're a leader that's looking to be or you're a leader that's looking to hire a communication director hire a communication director hire a communication director this is a great conversation for you to this is a great conversation for you to this is a great conversation for you to tune into she also talks about the tune into she also talks about the tune into she also talks about the season of change at watermark and season of change at watermark and season of change at watermark and they're in a season of change right now they're in a season of change right now they're in a season of change right now and she's having to navigate through and she's having to navigate through and she's having to navigate through that and so she shares some insight into that and so she shares some insight into that and so she shares some insight into that that that tell our audience a little bit about tell our audience a little bit about tell our audience a little bit about watermark if they don't know their bart watermark if they don't know their bart watermark if they don't know their bart yeah you know watermark is not too far yeah you know watermark is not too far yeah you know watermark is not too far from where i live i actually drive down from where i live i actually drive down from where i live i actually drive down the highway and pass their ministry the highway and pass their ministry the highway and pass their ministry center quite often they're actually a center quite often they're actually a center quite often they're actually a multi-campus church but one of the multi-campus church but one of the multi-campus church but one of the things that's been happening over the things that's been happening over the things that's been happening over the last few years is they have actually last few years is they have actually last few years is they have actually been releasing some of their campuses i been releasing some of their campuses i been releasing some of their campuses i think ultimately they're going to think ultimately they're going to think ultimately they're going to release all of their campuses to be release all of their campuses to be release all of their campuses to be independent churches and she shares a independent churches and she shares a independent churches and she shares a little bit about that in the podcast little bit about that in the podcast little bit about that in the podcast one of the things that makes watermark one of the things that makes watermark one of the things that makes watermark unique is that they really focus more unique is that they really focus more unique is that they really focus more energy on attracting people into their energy on attracting people into their energy on attracting people into their building and onto their campus between building and onto their campus between building and onto their campus between sundays than they do on sundays uh she sundays than they do on sundays uh she sundays than they do on sundays uh she talks a little bit about that as well if talks a little bit about that as well if talks a little bit about that as well if you are familiar with uh re-engage you are familiar with uh re-engage you are familiar with uh re-engage marriage ministry or regeneration those marriage ministry or regeneration those marriage ministry or regeneration those are two are two are two ministries that hundreds of churches

ministries that hundreds of churches ministries that hundreds of churches across the country use my my home church across the country use my my home church across the country use my my home church uh preston trail community church in uh preston trail community church in uh preston trail community church in frisco texas we we do re-engage and frisco texas we we do re-engage and frisco texas we we do re-engage and regeneration at our church and they are regeneration at our church and they are regeneration at our church and they are great ways for churches to connect with great ways for churches to connect with great ways for churches to connect with people in the community to really help people in the community to really help people in the community to really help uh couples and individuals deal with uh couples and individuals deal with uh couples and individuals deal with really tough stuff that they're managing really tough stuff that they're managing really tough stuff that they're managing in their in their lives and so they've in their in their lives and so they've in their in their lives and so they've built this built this built this they worked at watermark yeah they were they worked at watermark yeah they were they worked at watermark yeah they were all birthed at watermark and watermark all birthed at watermark and watermark all birthed at watermark and watermark provides coaching and guidance for provides coaching and guidance for provides coaching and guidance for churches that want to use those programs churches that want to use those programs churches that want to use those programs they also have a really very well-known they also have a really very well-known they also have a really very well-known uh young adults ministry called the uh young adults ministry called the uh young adults ministry called the porch that meets midweek and porch that meets midweek and porch that meets midweek and you know it's it's something i think a you know it's it's something i think a you know it's it's something i think a lot of other churches look to the porch lot of other churches look to the porch lot of other churches look to the porch and what they've done to reach and what they've done to reach and what they've done to reach young people millennials gen z young people millennials gen z young people millennials gen z people who you know a lot of people have people who you know a lot of people have people who you know a lot of people have written off as a lost cause and written off as a lost cause and written off as a lost cause and watermark has uh doubled down on their watermark has uh doubled down on their watermark has uh doubled down on their ability to reach those people ability to reach those people ability to reach those people in their community and so it's really in their community and so it's really in their community and so it's really admirable you know the thing jason that admirable you know the thing jason that admirable you know the thing jason that i really i really i really took away from our conversation i was took away from our conversation i was took away from our conversation i was actually sharing with my wife elizabeth actually sharing with my wife elizabeth actually sharing with my wife elizabeth shortly after you and i had the shortly after you and i had the shortly after you and i had the conversation was that we talked to a lot conversation was that we talked to a lot conversation was that we talked to a lot of communications directors whether of communications directors whether of communications directors whether that's with our work that we're doing that's with our work that we're doing that's with our work that we're doing with churches or with churches or with churches or podcasts and this is certainly not to um podcasts and this is certainly not to um podcasts and this is certainly not to um be disparaging to anyone else that we be disparaging to anyone else that we be disparaging to anyone else that we work with or anybody else that we talk work with or anybody else that we talk work with or anybody else that we talk to to to but caitlyn has a pastor's heart and i but caitlyn has a pastor's heart and i but caitlyn has a pastor's heart and i don't know if you got that but she don't know if you got that but she don't know if you got that but she doesn't treat leading the communications doesn't treat leading the communications doesn't treat leading the communications team like just a service to the church team like just a service to the church team like just a service to the church but she treats it like a real ministry

but she treats it like a real ministry but she treats it like a real ministry and that really comes out in the way and that really comes out in the way and that really comes out in the way that you know she talks about the way that you know she talks about the way that you know she talks about the way that she leads her staff the way that that she leads her staff the way that that she leads her staff the way that her ministry staff supports other her ministry staff supports other her ministry staff supports other ministries in the church and it was ministries in the church and it was ministries in the church and it was really unique and i was really impressed really unique and i was really impressed really unique and i was really impressed by that by that by that and just really appreciate her heart for and just really appreciate her heart for and just really appreciate her heart for for doing ministry so um you our for doing ministry so um you our for doing ministry so um you our listeners i think you're really going to listeners i think you're really going to listeners i think you're really going to appreciate this uh conversation that we appreciate this uh conversation that we appreciate this uh conversation that we had with caitlin uh if you're uh not yet had with caitlin uh if you're uh not yet had with caitlin uh if you're uh not yet subscribed to our podcast on whatever subscribed to our podcast on whatever subscribed to our podcast on whatever method you uh listen to this whether you method you uh listen to this whether you method you uh listen to this whether you watch the videos on youtube or you watch the videos on youtube or you watch the videos on youtube or you listen to some on some pla platform for listen to some on some pla platform for listen to some on some pla platform for podcasting make sure that you subscribe podcasting make sure that you subscribe podcasting make sure that you subscribe and if you haven't left us a rating or and if you 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about guests have ideas or suggestions about guests that we could have on the podcast or uh that we could have on the podcast or uh that we could have on the podcast or uh topics that you would like for us to topics that you would like for us to topics that you would like for us to cover um we'd love to do that one of the cover um we'd love to do that one of the cover um we'd love to do that one of the things we are going to be doing here in things we are going to be doing here in things we are going to be doing here in season two more frequently is instead of season two more frequently is instead of season two more frequently is instead of always just having a guest that we always just having a guest that we always just having a guest that we interview jason and i are going to do interview jason and i are going to do interview jason and i are going to do some deeper dives into some church some deeper dives into some church some deeper dives into some church communications issues things that we see communications issues things that we see communications issues things that we see churches doing well things that we see churches doing well things that we see churches doing well things that we see churches doing regularly that could be churches doing regularly that could be churches doing regularly that could be improved and so we're going to share improved and so we're going to share improved and so we're going to share some insights in fact we're going to some insights in fact we're going to some insights in fact we're going to have one of those episodes coming up have one of those episodes coming up have one of those episodes coming up probably within the next couple of weeks probably within the next couple of weeks probably within the next couple of weeks after this one releases so i'm not going after this one releases so i'm not going after this one releases so i'm not going to let the cat out of the bag on that to let the cat out of the bag on that to let the cat out of the bag on that one you need to subscribe so that you one you need to subscribe so that you one you need to subscribe so that you don't miss that episode so uh without

don't miss that episode so uh without don't miss that episode so uh without any further ado uh here is uh our any further ado uh here is uh our any further ado uh here is uh our interview with watermark's caitlyn van interview with watermark's caitlyn van interview with watermark's caitlyn van wagner wagner wagner caitlyn van wagner from watermark church caitlyn van wagner from watermark church caitlyn van wagner from watermark church thanks so much for joining us on the thanks so much for joining us on the thanks so much for joining us on the podcast today oh my gosh absolutely my podcast today oh my gosh absolutely my podcast today oh my gosh absolutely my pleasure thanks so much for having me pleasure thanks so much for having me pleasure thanks so much for having me uh caitlin it we're really really uh caitlin it we're really really uh caitlin it we're really really excited to have this conversation with excited to have this conversation with excited to have this conversation with you today we've got a lot of different you today we've got a lot of different you today we've got a lot of different things that we want to talk about but things that we want to talk about but things that we want to talk about but before we get into sort of the nuts and before we get into sort of the nuts and before we get into sort of the nuts and bolts of church communications and and bolts of church communications and and bolts of church communications and and all things watermark why don't you share all things watermark why don't you share all things watermark why don't you share a little bit about watermark church and a little bit about watermark church and a little bit about watermark church and then your role there how you got there then your role there how you got there then your role there how you got there you i believe you've been on staff there you i believe you've been on staff there you i believe you've been on staff there for about five or six years and we just for about five or six years and we just for about five or six years and we just want to know your story absolutely want to know your story absolutely want to know your story absolutely absolutely so happy too so watermark absolutely so happy too so watermark absolutely so happy too so watermark community church we are a church in community church we are a church in community church we are a church in dallas texas um and so we are a kind of dallas texas um and so we are a kind of dallas texas um and so we are a kind of an interesting church in that we have a an interesting church in that we have a an interesting church in that we have a little bit of an inverted ministry model little bit of an inverted ministry model little bit of an inverted ministry model and so um in our our church is probably and so um in our our church is probably and so um in our our church is probably busier monday through friday than it is busier monday through friday than it is busier monday through friday than it is on sundays because we have about 50 on sundays because we have about 50 on sundays because we have about 50 ministries that ministries that ministries that happen midweek throughout church so it happen midweek throughout church so it happen midweek throughout church so it is wild around here all the time which is wild around here all the time which is wild around here all the time which is so fun i have the best job in the is so fun i have the best job in the is so fun i have the best job in the world and then also some of our world and then also some of our world and then also some of our ministries are nationally and run at ministries are nationally and run at ministries are nationally and run at several hundred churches across the several hundred churches across the several hundred churches across the country so there's just a lot going on country so there's just a lot going on country so there's just a lot going on all the time um and but it's really fun all the time um and but it's really fun all the time um and but it's really fun i think i have the absolute best job in i think i have the absolute best job in i think i have the absolute best job in the world um i'm the senior director of the world um i'm the senior director of the world um i'm the senior director of communications here uh which is one of communications here uh which is one of communications here uh which is one of the single greatest privileges of my the single greatest privileges of my the single greatest privileges of my life but i essentially oversee our life but i essentially oversee our life but i essentially oversee our communications arm which there's kind of communications arm which there's kind of communications arm which there's kind of two arms to it i would say our strategy two arms to it i would say our strategy two arms to it i would say our strategy arm arm arm and then our creatives and so our and then our creatives and so our and then our creatives and so our strategy is essentially helping our strategy is essentially helping our strategy is essentially helping our ministries coach up our ministries on

ministries coach up our ministries on ministries coach up our ministries on how to communicate and where and then how to communicate and where and then how to communicate and where and then our creatives or all of our typical our creatives or all of our typical our creatives or all of our typical creatives photography graphic design creatives photography graphic design creatives photography graphic design filmmaking social media those things so filmmaking social media those things so filmmaking social media those things so i get to work with them and i've been i get to work with them and i've been i get to work with them and i've been here for about five years here for about five years here for about five years so so uh so so uh so so uh because all these ministries you have because all these ministries you have because all these ministries you have how do you how do you juggle doing you how do you how do you juggle doing you how do you how do you juggle doing you know handling and working with them know handling and working with them know handling and working with them versus what happens on the weekend versus what happens on the weekend versus what happens on the weekend um it is always attention to manage i um it is always attention to manage i um it is always attention to manage i would say um and so we are would say um and so we are would say um and so we are i'm always looking to my elders we're i'm always looking to my elders we're i'm always looking to my elders we're elder led church that's another aspect elder led church that's another aspect elder led church that's another aspect of us that is important to know and you of us that is important to know and you of us that is important to know and you would think that sometimes it's would think that sometimes it's would think that sometimes it's leadership really matters and so leadership really matters and so leadership really matters and so understanding and serving our elders is understanding and serving our elders is understanding and serving our elders is one of the chief goals of our one of the chief goals of our one of the chief goals of our communications department actually and communications department actually and communications department actually and so i get a lot of my priorities from so i get a lot of my priorities from so i get a lot of my priorities from them them them um but our goal is to essentially serve um but our goal is to essentially serve um but our goal is to essentially serve our weekend services but then also our weekend services but then also our weekend services but then also prioritize our midweek ministries um as prioritize our midweek ministries um as prioritize our midweek ministries um as best we can and some of those have their best we can and some of those have their best we can and some of those have their own individual brands and some of them own individual brands and some of them own individual brands and some of them are more aligned with our master kind of are more aligned with our master kind of are more aligned with our master kind of our overall watermark piece and so it is our overall watermark piece and so it is our overall watermark piece and so it is a balance so we try to arm our midweek a balance so we try to arm our midweek a balance so we try to arm our midweek ministries with like a really simple ministries with like a really simple ministries with like a really simple brand kit brand kit brand kit um so we live and die by our brand guide um so we live and die by our brand guide um so we live and die by our brand guide um and so to give them things that they um and so to give them things that they um and so to give them things that they can kind of plug and play so they can can kind of plug and play so they can can kind of plug and play so they can put together simple branded put together simple branded put together simple branded communications and then we come communications and then we come communications and then we come alongside them to help create custom alongside them to help create custom alongside them to help create custom work if they're doing a sermon series or work if they're doing a sermon series or work if they're doing a sermon series or what have you um to come alongside of what have you um to come alongside of what have you um to come alongside of that piece but um it is definitely a lot that piece but um it is definitely a lot that piece but um it is definitely a lot to manage and juggle but it's again it's to manage and juggle but it's again it's to manage and juggle but it's again it's so fun so fun so fun now yeah and now yeah and now yeah and so you have a you have a ton of um so you have a you have a ton of um so you have a you have a ton of um a lot of people that come to watermark a lot of people that come to watermark a lot of people that come to watermark what's it been like with coming out of

what's it been like with coming out of what's it been like with coming out of out of covet are you getting more and out of covet are you getting more and out of covet are you getting more and more people back in the seats more people back in the seats more people back in the seats yes it is just yes it is just yes it is just so fun i mean it's it i think it so fun i mean it's it i think it so fun i mean it's it i think it definitely has changed people's viewing definitely has changed people's viewing definitely has changed people's viewing habits right and so some people are more habits right and so some people are more habits right and so some people are more com still more comfortable with online com still more comfortable with online com still more comfortable with online church but we are seeing a lot of new church but we are seeing a lot of new church but we are seeing a lot of new people which is just people which is just people which is just so fun so our membership classes are are so fun so our membership classes are are so fun so our membership classes are are um booming that we we've launched about um booming that we we've launched about um booming that we we've launched about a 170 community groups in the last year a 170 community groups in the last year a 170 community groups in the last year which is wild i mean so fun and the which is wild i mean so fun and the which is wild i mean so fun and the heart of watermark is really community heart of watermark is really community heart of watermark is really community all of our members are in community all of our members are in community all of our members are in community groups um and so that is just really fun groups um and so that is just really fun groups um and so that is just really fun to see people i think people are hungry to see people i think people are hungry to see people i think people are hungry they're coming out of a place a time they're coming out of a place a time they're coming out of a place a time where they were isolated and they're where they were isolated and they're where they were isolated and they're seeing the need for community and deep seeing the need for community and deep seeing the need for community and deep relationships and so i think the church relationships and so i think the church relationships and so i think the church is in a great place to go hey come home is in a great place to go hey come home is in a great place to go hey come home and let's get you plugged in connected and let's get you plugged in connected and let's get you plugged in connected in deep community with other believers in deep community with other believers in deep community with other believers and so i we're seeing people that are and so i we're seeing people that are and so i we're seeing people that are hungry for that or people who have um in hungry for that or people who have um in hungry for that or people who have um in covet kind of uncovered some maybe hurts covet kind of uncovered some maybe hurts covet kind of uncovered some maybe hurts and or hang-ups that they have that they and or hang-ups that they have that they and or hang-ups that they have that they need they want to work through too so need they want to work through too so need they want to work through too so our um that's that's been really neat to our um that's that's been really neat to our um that's that's been really neat to see uh them working that through and see uh them working that through and see uh them working that through and some of our other ministries that are some of our other ministries that are some of our other ministries that are more care oriented have kind of flexed more care oriented have kind of flexed more care oriented have kind of flexed in different ways um but it definitely in different ways um but it definitely in different ways um but it definitely has been a challenge every church has has been a challenge every church has has been a challenge every church has had to expand their digital footprint had to expand their digital footprint had to expand their digital footprint and learn social first and video first and learn social first and video first and learn social first and video first and all the things but it's an and all the things but it's an and all the things but it's an incredible opportunity to care for incredible opportunity to care for incredible opportunity to care for people who are just in a different spot people who are just in a different spot people who are just in a different spot than they were 18 months ago yeah fart than they were 18 months ago yeah fart than they were 18 months ago yeah fart can i um double click a little bit on a can i um double click a little bit on a can i um double click a little bit on a couple of different things that you were

couple of different things that you were couple of different things that you were talking about there first of all uh you talking about there first of all uh you talking about there first of all uh you shared that you have about as much shared that you have about as much shared that you have about as much ministry if not more going on between ministry if not more going on between ministry if not more going on between the sundays as you do on sunday and so the sundays as you do on sunday and so the sundays as you do on sunday and so what i'd love for you to do is just what i'd love for you to do is just what i'd love for you to do is just extrapolate a little bit on that for our extrapolate a little bit on that for our extrapolate a little bit on that for our audience so that they understand what audience so that they understand what audience so that they understand what kind of ministries you are uh running kind of ministries you are uh running kind of ministries you are uh running whether those are outward-facing whether those are outward-facing whether those are outward-facing inward-facing type of of of ministries inward-facing type of of of ministries inward-facing type of of of ministries i'd also like to hear i'd also like to hear i'd also like to hear and i know this isn't necessarily your and i know this isn't necessarily your and i know this isn't necessarily your area of focus and expertise but since area of focus and expertise but since area of focus and expertise but since jason talked about what things were like jason talked about what things were like jason talked about what things were like coming out of kovid i'd like to hear how coming out of kovid i'd like to hear how coming out of kovid i'd like to hear how you have all these midweek ministries on you have all these midweek ministries on you have all these midweek ministries on your campus your campus your campus uh pre-covered you obviously had to uh pre-covered you obviously had to uh pre-covered you obviously had to transition not just your weekend transition not just your weekend transition not just your weekend services to an online experience but a services to an online experience but a services to an online experience but a lot of these midweek ministries how did lot of these midweek ministries how did lot of these midweek ministries how did that go just share some some highlights that go just share some some highlights that go just share some some highlights on that and then what parts of those on that and then what parts of those on that and then what parts of those have actually if any have remained have actually if any have remained have actually if any have remained online since you've come back to online since you've come back to online since you've come back to in-person services so there are a few in-person services so there are a few in-person services so there are a few different questions there yeah the types different questions there yeah the types different questions there yeah the types of ministries of ministries of ministries yeah the types of ministries that you yeah the types of ministries that you yeah the types of ministries that you have that are running midweek have that are running midweek have that are running midweek how you transition those two online how you transition those two online how you transition those two online experiences and then since coming back experiences and then since coming back experiences and then since coming back in person onto campus what types of in person onto campus what types of in person onto campus what types of things are still being done online and things are still being done online and things are still being done online and how how effective you're seeing that how how effective you're seeing that how how effective you're seeing that being yes that's awesome all right i i being yes that's awesome all right i i being yes that's awesome all right i i think i got them so we'll see um but if think i got them so we'll see um but if think i got them so we'll see um but if i get off track i feel like y'all will i get off track i feel like y'all will i get off track i feel like y'all will get me back on track um so from a get me back on track um so from a get me back on track um so from a midweek perspective essentially we've midweek perspective essentially we've midweek perspective essentially we've got we've got some like larger got we've got some like larger got we've got some like larger ministries that are and most of them are

ministries that are and most of them are ministries that are and most of them are care oriented or life stage oriented so care oriented or life stage oriented so care oriented or life stage oriented so for example on monday nights we've got for example on monday nights we've got for example on monday nights we've got regeneration recovery which is a 12-step regeneration recovery which is a 12-step regeneration recovery which is a 12-step recovery program that's christ centered recovery program that's christ centered recovery program that's christ centered and that's one of those that's one of and that's one of those that's one of and that's one of those that's one of our larger ministries that's also run our larger ministries that's also run our larger ministries that's also run across the country the porch is our across the country the porch is our across the country the porch is our young adult ministry and that happens on young adult ministry and that happens on young adult ministry and that happens on tuesday nights and so we've got 3 500 tuesday nights and so we've got 3 500 tuesday nights and so we've got 3 500 young adults here on tuesday nights young adults here on tuesday nights young adults here on tuesday nights which is just so fun and that's also which is just so fun and that's also which is just so fun and that's also streamed nationally to several churches streamed nationally to several churches streamed nationally to several churches across the country and then our other across the country and then our other across the country and then our other kind of kind of kind of largest is a ministry called re-engage largest is a ministry called re-engage largest is a ministry called re-engage which is a marriage enrichment program which is a marriage enrichment program which is a marriage enrichment program um ministry that's essentially about um ministry that's essentially about um ministry that's essentially about discipleship in marriage and helping discipleship in marriage and helping discipleship in marriage and helping marriages go whether they want to go marriages go whether they want to go marriages go whether they want to go from a eight to a ten or a zero to a ten from a eight to a ten or a zero to a ten from a eight to a ten or a zero to a ten um so marriage enrichment and that's um so marriage enrichment and that's um so marriage enrichment and that's also run across the country and so those also run across the country and so those also run across the country and so those are those are kind of our big ones and are those are kind of our big ones and are those are kind of our big ones and then we also have several that are more then we also have several that are more then we also have several that are more life stage everything from um ministries life stage everything from um ministries life stage everything from um ministries for women who are walking through for women who are walking through for women who are walking through infertility to infertility to infertility to our pre-marriage ministry account our our pre-marriage ministry account our our pre-marriage ministry account our counseling ministry called merge um to counseling ministry called merge um to counseling ministry called merge um to everything for uh women with unexpected everything for uh women with unexpected everything for uh women with unexpected permitees and so um there's a lot that permitees and so um there's a lot that permitees and so um there's a lot that happen and in addition to more equipping happen and in addition to more equipping happen and in addition to more equipping things like women's bible study men's things like women's bible study men's things like women's bible study men's bible study and so other things that are bible study and so other things that are bible study and so other things that are happening that are more about community happening that are more about community happening that are more about community enrichment and equipping of our enrichment and equipping of our enrichment and equipping of our membership so there's just a lot going membership so there's just a lot going membership so there's just a lot going on a lot of them are in the vein of on a lot of them are in the vein of on a lot of them are in the vein of specialized um kind of care ministries a specialized um kind of care ministries a specialized um kind of care ministries a lot of them have been born out of i lot of them have been born out of i lot of them have been born out of i think almost entirely out of lay leaders think almost entirely out of lay leaders think almost entirely out of lay leaders who are passionate about a given area who are passionate about a given area who are passionate about a given area and so they start a ministry and so some and so they start a ministry and so some and so they start a ministry and so some of them are really specialized so uh one of them are really specialized so uh one of them are really specialized so uh one of them is one of my favorites is of them is one of my favorites is of them is one of my favorites is careers in motion it's folks that have careers in motion it's folks that have careers in motion it's folks that have recently lost their jobs or in a season

recently lost their jobs or in a season recently lost their jobs or in a season of transition how do you care for people of transition how do you care for people of transition how do you care for people in that unique bystage and so a lot of in that unique bystage and so a lot of in that unique bystage and so a lot of them are kind of specialized more um them are kind of specialized more um them are kind of specialized more um care ministries that our lay leaders are care ministries that our lay leaders are care ministries that our lay leaders are lay our members have been passionate lay our members have been passionate lay our members have been passionate about and so they've launched a ministry about and so they've launched a ministry about and so they've launched a ministry which is really fun um so they're very which is really fun um so they're very which is really fun um so they're very disparate in terms of a size everywhere disparate in terms of a size everywhere disparate in terms of a size everywhere from you know 3 500 here to maybe one from you know 3 500 here to maybe one from you know 3 500 here to maybe one only has 10 or 15 but we try to look at only has 10 or 15 but we try to look at only has 10 or 15 but we try to look at all of those as amazing opportunities all of those as amazing opportunities all of those as amazing opportunities and and not not necessarily look at size and and not not necessarily look at size and and not not necessarily look at size in terms of value um but just in terms in terms of value um but just in terms in terms of value um but just in terms of the care that they're providing so of the care that they're providing so of the care that they're providing so lots happening all the time lots happening all the time lots happening all the time wow okay i want to go back wow okay i want to go back wow okay i want to go back so you've been here for five years um so you've been here for five years um so you've been here for five years um what was the what was the communication what was the what was the communication what was the what was the communication department like when you started department like when you started department like when you started and today you have a really robust large and today you have a really robust large and today you have a really robust large team you've got a lot of people that team you've got a lot of people that team you've got a lot of people that you're you're leading you're you're leading you're you're leading um how how was that growth and what kind um how how was that growth and what kind um how how was that growth and what kind of advice would you give to of advice would you give to of advice would you give to a communication director that's kind of a communication director that's kind of a communication director that's kind of starting out that's new smaller church starting out that's new smaller church starting out that's new smaller church but you know what kind what are the but you know what kind what are the but you know what kind what are the things that you had to do what are the things that you had to do what are the things that you had to do what are the things you had to learn and things you had to learn and things you had to learn and talk a little bit about talk a little bit about talk a little bit about so much um i had to learn a lot so i so much um i had to learn a lot so i so much um i had to learn a lot so i come from a corporate environment so i come from a corporate environment so i come from a corporate environment so i was a branding strategist at an ad was a branding strategist at an ad was a branding strategist at an ad agency before and then i came to agency before and then i came to agency before and then i came to watermark um watermark um watermark um and uh our communications department was and uh our communications department was and uh our communications department was actually kind of split into almost three actually kind of split into almost three actually kind of split into almost three departments and they were all very departments and they were all very departments and they were all very siloed and nobody talked to each other siloed and nobody talked to each other siloed and nobody talked to each other and so not not because they didn't we and so not not because they didn't we and so not not because they didn't we didn't love each other but they just we didn't love each other but they just we didn't love each other but they just we grew so watermark grew so fast and it's grew so watermark grew so fast and it's grew so watermark grew so fast and it's filled with entrepreneurs and so it was

filled with entrepreneurs and so it was filled with entrepreneurs and so it was a bunch of different arms and no one was a bunch of different arms and no one was a bunch of different arms and no one was really hooked in together and so our really hooked in together and so our really hooked in together and so our creative teams and our production teams creative teams and our production teams creative teams and our production teams weren't really hooked into our graphic weren't really hooked into our graphic weren't really hooked into our graphic design team that wasn't really hooked design team that wasn't really hooked design team that wasn't really hooked into our strategy aspect and so i came into our strategy aspect and so i came into our strategy aspect and so i came in when i came in um i led kind of a in when i came in um i led kind of a in when i came in um i led kind of a smaller communications team of five or smaller communications team of five or smaller communications team of five or six people that did six people that did six people that did mostly kind of internal communications mostly kind of internal communications mostly kind of internal communications but that wasn't hooked into a lot of but that wasn't hooked into a lot of but that wasn't hooked into a lot of other communications related departments other communications related departments other communications related departments and so after over the last and so after over the last and so after over the last uh really the last year we've actually uh really the last year we've actually uh really the last year we've actually consolidated those three departments consolidated those three departments consolidated those three departments that's now all communications so and that's now all communications so and that's now all communications so and it's one single process flow that runs it's one single process flow that runs it's one single process flow that runs from strategy all the way to execution from strategy all the way to execution from strategy all the way to execution and so we have folks we've completely and so we have folks we've completely and so we have folks we've completely reimagined and reinvigorated the way reimagined and reinvigorated the way reimagined and reinvigorated the way that projects get done and the way we that projects get done and the way we that projects get done and the way we serve ministries and so because we've serve ministries and so because we've serve ministries and so because we've essentially broken down a ton of silos essentially broken down a ton of silos essentially broken down a ton of silos had to everybody's gotten new job had to everybody's gotten new job had to everybody's gotten new job descriptions my team is amazing and descriptions my team is amazing and descriptions my team is amazing and they've just been troopers to go through they've just been troopers to go through they've just been troopers to go through all of that change but lots of silos um all of that change but lots of silos um all of that change but lots of silos um because we just which grew so fast and because we just which grew so fast and because we just which grew so fast and so entrepreneurial and then uh not a so entrepreneurial and then uh not a so entrepreneurial and then uh not a really clear process and so i come from really clear process and so i come from really clear process and so i come from a a a a really high process place a really high process place a really high process place and so and from a corporate perspective and so and from a corporate perspective and so and from a corporate perspective and so we didn't have a ton of process and so we didn't have a ton of process and so we didn't have a ton of process here here here um which just made things i think just um which just made things i think just um which just made things i think just less efficient everybody was working less efficient everybody was working less efficient everybody was working super hard but nobody had taken the time super hard but nobody had taken the time super hard but nobody had taken the time to go through and think through the to go through and think through the to go through and think through the whole process flow so we're actually my whole process flow so we're actually my whole process flow so we're actually my team is in the big middle of we went team is in the big middle of we went team is in the big middle of we went from we are now a team of i think i from we are now a team of i think i from we are now a team of i think i think 25 of us that are all learning how think 25 of us that are all learning how think 25 of us that are all learning how to to work together in a new way which to to work together in a new way which to to work together in a new way which is wild and so fun um but really

is wild and so fun um but really is wild and so fun um but really focusing on process on serving our focusing on process on serving our focusing on process on serving our ministries really well through clarity ministries really well through clarity ministries really well through clarity clarity blesses people process blesses clarity blesses people process blesses clarity blesses people process blesses people um and so and then also just people um and so and then also just people um and so and then also just hoping to we were super because of the hoping to we were super because of the hoping to we were super because of the way we were oriented we were really way we were oriented we were really way we were oriented we were really heavily focused on the weekend and the heavily focused on the weekend and the heavily focused on the weekend and the goal is to spread out a little bit of goal is to spread out a little bit of goal is to spread out a little bit of the communication support across the the communication support across the the communication support across the midweek stuff so we're in the middle of midweek stuff so we're in the middle of midweek stuff so we're in the middle of a reinventing our process but here's a reinventing our process but here's a reinventing our process but here's what i would say if you're a new what i would say if you're a new what i would say if you're a new communications director communications director communications director it took me it took us not me alone oh my it took me it took us not me alone oh my it took me it took us not me alone oh my gosh i had so many people helping it gosh i had so many people helping it gosh i had so many people helping it took us four years to the to get to the took us four years to the to get to the took us four years to the to get to the place where we were able to make this place where we were able to make this place where we were able to make this shift and so we just had to do these shift and so we just had to do these shift and so we just had to do these incremental improvements to go all right incremental improvements to go all right incremental improvements to go all right we would we would improve something and we would we would improve something and we would we would improve something and then we'd go oh that's kind of an arm then we'd go oh that's kind of an arm then we'd go oh that's kind of an arm sticking out that doesn't really fit sticking out that doesn't really fit sticking out that doesn't really fit and incremental to build trust with and incremental to build trust with and incremental to build trust with leadership to build trust with the rest leadership to build trust with the rest leadership to build trust with the rest of the staff to just kind of slog of the staff to just kind of slog of the staff to just kind of slog through it through it through it and then finally we got to the place and then finally we got to the place and then finally we got to the place about a year ago where our leadership about a year ago where our leadership about a year ago where our leadership came to a couple of us came to a couple of us came to a couple of us and said hey we're actually game if you and said hey we're actually game if you and said hey we're actually game if you want to completely reinvent this and so want to completely reinvent this and so want to completely reinvent this and so would you try that and so there's a few would you try that and so there's a few would you try that and so there's a few of us that got together and and then and of us that got together and and then and of us that got together and and then and they went for it and all of a sudden it they went for it and all of a sudden it they went for it and all of a sudden it was like we're changing everything you was like we're changing everything you was like we're changing everything you know and so know and so know and so i would say if you're a new i would say if you're a new i would say if you're a new communications uh director take them be communications uh director take them be communications uh director take them be faithful with what you've got take the faithful with what you've got take the faithful with what you've got take the most wise next step and it it'll all most wise next step and it it'll all most wise next step and it it'll all build on each other and i think just build on each other and i think just build on each other and i think just improve what's in front of you improve what's in front of you improve what's in front of you low-hanging fruit and you're not going low-hanging fruit and you're not going low-hanging fruit and you're not going to be able to do it all it took me it to be able to do it all it took me it to be able to do it all it took me it took us four years to get to the place took us four years to get to the place took us four years to get to the place where we are now um and i had a ton we where we are now um and i had a ton we where we are now um and i had a ton we had a ton of help and amazing people but had a ton of help and amazing people but had a ton of help and amazing people but it just takes time to figure out to it just takes time to figure out to it just takes time to figure out to identify the right problems to build identify the right problems to build identify the right problems to build trust trust trust um trust is currency in ministry and to

um trust is currency in ministry and to um trust is currency in ministry and to just got to do that and then to learn just got to do that and then to learn just got to do that and then to learn how to how to work together i made a how to how to work together i made a how to how to work together i made a thousand mistakes in those and so i'm thousand mistakes in those and so i'm thousand mistakes in those and so i'm really glad i had that three to four really glad i had that three to four really glad i had that three to four year buffer where i could make so many year buffer where i could make so many year buffer where i could make so many mistakes and understand even what mistakes and understand even what mistakes and understand even what problems to solve because problems to solve because problems to solve because i coming in day one i would never have i coming in day one i would never have i coming in day one i would never have known i would have tried to solve the known i would have tried to solve the known i would have tried to solve the wrong problem so i don't know if that wrong problem so i don't know if that wrong problem so i don't know if that answer is your question yeah it does i answer is your question yeah it does i answer is your question yeah it does i mean it yeah most mean it yeah most mean it yeah most most church communication directors get most church communication directors get most church communication directors get a little bit frustrated right because a little bit frustrated right because a little bit frustrated right because maybe they're siloed and they they just maybe they're siloed and they they just maybe they're siloed and they they just can't figure out how to bring everybody can't figure out how to bring everybody can't figure out how to bring everybody in and and you know like the worship in in and and you know like the worship in in and and you know like the worship in the weekend is always usually the top the weekend is always usually the top the weekend is always usually the top priority for most churches so they've priority for most churches so they've priority for most churches so they've got their own thing going on you have got their own thing going on you have got their own thing going on you have ministries lining up at your door ministries lining up at your door ministries lining up at your door wanting wanting wanting winning time it's just it becomes kind winning time it's just it becomes kind winning time it's just it becomes kind of a headache for communication of a headache for communication of a headache for communication directors we find ourselves directors we find ourselves directors we find ourselves counseling and coaching a lot of comm counseling and coaching a lot of comm counseling and coaching a lot of comm directors and it's okay directors and it's okay directors and it's okay and it's relationship building and and it's relationship building and and it's relationship building and that's the hard work of going that's the hard work of going that's the hard work of going hey build relationships with your hey build relationships with your hey build relationships with your ministry partners understand what they ministry partners understand what they ministry partners understand what they are after how you can come alongside are after how you can come alongside are after how you can come alongside them build trust i mean i i'll say it them build trust i mean i i'll say it them build trust i mean i i'll say it again like trust is just currency and i again like trust is just currency and i again like trust is just currency and i think i see that a lot too when i talk think i see that a lot too when i talk think i see that a lot too when i talk to other communications directors is it to other communications directors is it to other communications directors is it does feel siloed so i'm going there's so does feel siloed so i'm going there's so does feel siloed so i'm going there's so much that can happen with just like much that can happen with just like much that can happen with just like taking your taking your taking your taking your you know women's ministry taking your you know women's ministry taking your you know women's ministry director out to lunch and sitting down director out to lunch and sitting down director out to lunch and sitting down and going what are you focused on like and going what are you focused on like and going what are you focused on like how can we help we work together and so how can we help we work together and so how can we help we work together and so i'm building and that's also the fun of i'm building and that's also the fun of i'm building and that's also the fun of you get to work at a church it's like you get to work at a church it's like you get to work at a church it's like you get to work with amazing people and you get to work with amazing people and you get to work with amazing people and so and who are all believers and so so and who are all believers and so so and who are all believers and so building into that trust is is currency building into that trust is is currency building into that trust is is currency and then um so that you can you can you

and then um so that you can you can you and then um so that you can you can you got to make uh deposits into the trust got to make uh deposits into the trust got to make uh deposits into the trust banks before you can make some banks before you can make some banks before you can make some withdrawals and so i would i would say withdrawals and so i would i would say withdrawals and so i would i would say to i would i would focus on that and to i would i would focus on that and to i would i would focus on that and don't get discouraged solve the next big don't get discouraged solve the next big don't get discouraged solve the next big problem in front of you and then move on problem in front of you and then move on problem in front of you and then move on and you'll build trust and then move on and you'll build trust and then move on and you'll build trust and then move on hey bart blair here i'm the producer of hey bart blair here i'm the producer of hey bart blair here i'm the producer of missional marketing's church growth missional marketing's church growth missional marketing's church growth interviews podcast thanks so much for interviews podcast thanks so much for interviews podcast thanks so much for tuning in additional marketing we're tuning in additional marketing we're tuning in additional marketing we're passionate about helping churches reach passionate about helping churches reach passionate about helping churches reach more people for jesus online and one of more people for jesus online and one of more people for jesus online and one of the ways that we do that is by helping the ways that we do that is by helping the ways that we do that is by helping churches acquire more new visitors to churches acquire more new visitors to churches acquire more new visitors to their website utilizing the google ad their website utilizing the google ad their website utilizing the google ad grant google offers qualifying grant google offers qualifying grant google offers qualifying non-profits including churches up to ten non-profits including churches up to ten non-profits including churches up to ten thousand dollars a month in advertising thousand dollars a month in advertising thousand dollars a month in advertising that means that you as a church could be that means that you as a church could be that means that you as a church could be using google as one of your primary using google as one of your primary using google as one of your primary digital outreach strategies to digital outreach strategies to digital outreach strategies to communicate the gospel and reach more communicate the gospel and reach more communicate the gospel and reach more people in your community if you'd like people in your community if you'd like people in your community if you'd like to learn more visit our website to learn more visit our website to learn more visit our website admissionalmarketing.com admissionalmarketing.com admissionalmarketing.com and click the link at the top of the and click the link at the top of the and click the link at the top of the page that says google grants we'd love page that says google grants we'd love page that says google grants we'd love an opportunity to partner with you in an opportunity to partner with you in an opportunity to partner with you in your mission to build god's kingdom here your mission to build god's kingdom here your mission to build god's kingdom here on earth well thanks again for listening on earth well thanks again for listening on earth well thanks again for listening to our podcast and now back to the show to our podcast and now back to the show to our podcast and now back to the show yeah so yeah that's yeah so yeah that's yeah so yeah that's amazing advice uh so from a as a leader amazing advice uh so from a as a leader amazing advice uh so from a as a leader how do how have you what's one of the how do how have you what's one of the how do how have you what's one of the best things you've done to lead your own best things you've done to lead your own best things you've done to lead your own team team team um oh gosh okay i'll give you a um um oh gosh okay i'll give you a um um oh gosh okay i'll give you a um an anti-answer which is um an anti-answer which is um an anti-answer which is um i think i think i think uh uh uh leading out of brokenness and deficiency leading out of brokenness and deficiency leading out of brokenness and deficiency which is probably not the answer you which is probably not the answer you which is probably not the answer you expected me to go give you i would love expected me to go give you i would love expected me to go give you i would love to say i came in with a five-point plan

to say i came in with a five-point plan to say i came in with a five-point plan and i got everybody on you know but and i got everybody on you know but and i got everybody on you know but truly truly truly um i came in and um i tried that for a um i came in and um i tried that for a um i came in and um i tried that for a while and it doesn't just didn't really while and it doesn't just didn't really while and it doesn't just didn't really work and honestly it kind of wore me out work and honestly it kind of wore me out work and honestly it kind of wore me out to have to be the one that was always to have to be the one that was always to have to be the one that was always and always being the one to solve the and always being the one to solve the and always being the one to solve the problems and so i had this really problems and so i had this really problems and so i had this really humbling moment about six to eight humbling moment about six to eight humbling moment about six to eight months ago where i was like i'm trying months ago where i was like i'm trying months ago where i was like i'm trying to lead to lead to lead on my own and not playing team ball and on my own and not playing team ball and on my own and not playing team ball and so i went to my team so i went to my team so i went to my team a couple of months ago and we were in a couple of months ago and we were in a couple of months ago and we were in the middle of this i mean massive the middle of this i mean massive the middle of this i mean massive transition and uh in terms of transition and uh in terms of transition and uh in terms of structurally but then also watermark in structurally but then also watermark in structurally but then also watermark in general which i'm sure we'll get to is general which i'm sure we'll get to is general which i'm sure we'll get to is going through a big transition ourselves going through a big transition ourselves going through a big transition ourselves and so i went and go guys i'm just i and so i went and go guys i'm just i and so i went and go guys i'm just i need help will you help me solve these need help will you help me solve these need help will you help me solve these problems and so we started to play team problems and so we started to play team problems and so we started to play team ball and that is a game-changer because ball and that is a game-changer because ball and that is a game-changer because some of the the best ideas honestly have some of the the best ideas honestly have some of the the best ideas honestly have come from my team and not for me the come from my team and not for me the come from my team and not for me the best feedback i've gotten has come from best feedback i've gotten has come from best feedback i've gotten has come from my team and not me and so i think my team and not me and so i think my team and not me and so i think leading through i'm willing to make leading through i'm willing to make leading through i'm willing to make decisions and i'm willing to make calls decisions and i'm willing to make calls decisions and i'm willing to make calls and sometimes as a leader you have to and sometimes as a leader you have to and sometimes as a leader you have to um but leading through i don't know um but leading through i don't know um but leading through i don't know leading through will you help leading through will you help leading through will you help deploying people empowering them and not deploying people empowering them and not deploying people empowering them and not trying to lead in a silo and not trying trying to lead in a silo and not trying trying to lead in a silo and not trying to think that you've got it all together to think that you've got it all together to think that you've got it all together inviting other people into the solution inviting other people into the solution inviting other people into the solution then they'll be bought in and support then they'll be bought in and support then they'll be bought in and support the solution so i think i had a really the solution so i think i had a really the solution so i think i had a really humbling moment about 68 months ago humbling moment about 68 months ago humbling moment about 68 months ago where i was like oh my gosh i have a where i was like oh my gosh i have a where i was like oh my gosh i have a pride issue on my leadership and had to pride issue on my leadership and had to pride issue on my leadership and had to go to my leadership team and ask for go to my leadership team and ask for go to my leadership team and ask for forgiveness um the others leaders on my forgiveness um the others leaders on my forgiveness um the others leaders on my on my team that my comps team and go on my team that my comps team and go on my team that my comps team and go will you i've tried to lead in the silo will you i've tried to lead in the silo will you i've tried to lead in the silo will you help me lead this and it was will you help me lead this and it was will you help me lead this and it was like game changer so i would go i don't

like game changer so i would go i don't like game changer so i would go i don't know if that's what the answer you're know if that's what the answer you're know if that's what the answer you're looking for i'd love to tell you out of looking for i'd love to tell you out of looking for i'd love to tell you out of now it's it's great advice and i would now it's it's great advice and i would now it's it's great advice and i would say the same thing say the same thing say the same thing as a leader someone of course as a leader someone of course as a leader someone of course we have to make those calls sometimes we have to make those calls sometimes we have to make those calls sometimes but you know stepping aside and letting but you know stepping aside and letting but you know stepping aside and letting the other people on the team be leaders the other people on the team be leaders the other people on the team be leaders is the greatest gift you can give is the greatest gift you can give is the greatest gift you can give yourself yourself yourself i'm telling you and usually better i'm telling you and usually better i'm telling you and usually better outcomes happen in better direction and outcomes happen in better direction and outcomes happen in better direction and things get changed for the better and things get changed for the better and things get changed for the better and that'd be my advice to communication that'd be my advice to communication that'd be my advice to communication directors like you've got people directors like you've got people directors like you've got people underneath you that are probably pretty underneath you that are probably pretty underneath you that are probably pretty talented but if you're blind to talented but if you're blind to talented but if you're blind to that talent then you're not doing that talent then you're not doing that talent then you're not doing yourself any favors yes step out and yourself any favors yes step out and yourself any favors yes step out and that's the beautiful beautiful thing that's the beautiful beautiful thing that's the beautiful beautiful thing about working in a church is your about working in a church is your about working in a church is your professional life and your spiritual professional life and your spiritual professional life and your spiritual life are all kind of tied together life are all kind of tied together life are all kind of tied together for me it was really fun because it was for me it was really fun because it was for me it was really fun because it was like i it was like a spiritual like i it was like a spiritual like i it was like a spiritual revelation that i had i was like oh my revelation that i had i was like oh my revelation that i had i was like oh my gosh i have pride in my work that i got gosh i have pride in my work that i got gosh i have pride in my work that i got to take to my team and it was scary i to take to my team and it was scary i to take to my team and it was scary i remember i was like in a team meeting remember i was like in a team meeting remember i was like in a team meeting with with 20 faces looking at me and i'm with with 20 faces looking at me and i'm with with 20 faces looking at me and i'm just like i'll be completely honest with just like i'll be completely honest with just like i'll be completely honest with you i'm like crying in my team meeting you i'm like crying in my team meeting you i'm like crying in my team meeting and i'm not a crier i'm not an emotional and i'm not a crier i'm not an emotional and i'm not a crier i'm not an emotional person and so and but it was they have person and so and but it was they have person and so and but it was they have told me they're like that was the moment told me they're like that was the moment told me they're like that was the moment we felt like a team and that was the we felt like a team and that was the we felt like a team and that was the moment we were like we're all in this moment we were like we're all in this moment we were like we're all in this together and i was like really i'll cry together and i was like really i'll cry together and i was like really i'll cry more um but it is hard to lead out of more um but it is hard to lead out of more um but it is hard to lead out of brokenness and deficiency but again i brokenness and deficiency but again i brokenness and deficiency but again i think i just go you see so many models think i just go you see so many models think i just go you see so many models of that and commands around humility and of that and commands around humility and of that and commands around humility and against pride in scripture and i'll go against pride in scripture and i'll go against pride in scripture and i'll go ugh turns out it was right you know yeah ugh turns out it was right you know yeah ugh turns out it was right you know yeah well what you just said right there i well what you just said right there i well what you just said right there i just sense that's the spirit working just sense that's the spirit working just sense that's the spirit working through you through you through you and and you submitting to his attorney

and and you submitting to his attorney and and you submitting to his attorney let him do that that's absolutely way to let him do that that's absolutely way to let him do that that's absolutely way to go that's awesome that's why when i say go that's awesome that's why when i say go that's awesome that's why when i say working at watermark is like the single working at watermark is like the single working at watermark is like the single greatest privilege of my life because greatest privilege of my life because greatest privilege of my life because i'm a different person because god's i'm a different person because god's i'm a different person because god's used this place professionally to refine used this place professionally to refine used this place professionally to refine me spiritually which is like the cool me spiritually which is like the cool me spiritually which is like the cool thing if you let it the coolest thing thing if you let it the coolest thing thing if you let it the coolest thing about working in a church the coolest about working in a church the coolest about working in a church the coolest thing about working at your church you thing about working at your church you thing about working at your church you know so exactly yeah know so exactly yeah know so exactly yeah that yeah that you know what caitlyn that yeah that you know what caitlyn that yeah that you know what caitlyn what you said there is is pretty amazing what you said there is is pretty amazing what you said there is is pretty amazing and we we had a few minutes uh as we and we we had a few minutes uh as we and we we had a few minutes uh as we were getting to know each other before were getting to know each other before were getting to know each other before we pressed the record button and one of we pressed the record button and one of we pressed the record button and one of the things that i i sensed about you the things that i i sensed about you the things that i i sensed about you right out of the gate was that um you right out of the gate was that um you right out of the gate was that um you understand and have a healthy understand and have a healthy understand and have a healthy perspective on the shepherding and the perspective on the shepherding and the perspective on the shepherding and the pastoral aspect of being a ministry pastoral aspect of being a ministry pastoral aspect of being a ministry leader and jason and i have the leader and jason and i have the leader and jason and i have the privilege of of meeting with and having privilege of of meeting with and having privilege of of meeting with and having relationships with you know literally relationships with you know literally relationships with you know literally hundreds of uh church leaders and hundreds of uh church leaders and hundreds of uh church leaders and specifically communications specifically communications specifically communications professionals and the truth is not professionals and the truth is not professionals and the truth is not everyone everyone everyone seems to get that and so i appreciate seems to get that and so i appreciate seems to get that and so i appreciate that about you and that's where i want that about you and that's where i want that about you and that's where i want to lead us sort of into our next um to lead us sort of into our next um to lead us sort of into our next um topic of conversation next area of topic of conversation next area of topic of conversation next area of discussion and that is um you know we we discussion and that is um you know we we discussion and that is um you know we we discussed offline a little bit and you discussed offline a little bit and you discussed offline a little bit and you mentioned it just a moment ago that mentioned it just a moment ago that mentioned it just a moment ago that watermark has been going through some watermark has been going through some watermark has been going through some significant transition there's been significant transition there's been significant transition there's been senior leadership transition an elder senior leadership transition an elder senior leadership transition an elder transition the church is transitioning transition the church is transitioning transition the church is transitioning campuses into uh their own independent campuses into uh their own independent campuses into uh their own independent churches and anytime there is change in churches and anytime there is change in churches and anytime there is change in a church whether the church is a church a church whether the church is a church a church whether the church is a church of 40 people or 40 000 people

of 40 people or 40 000 people of 40 people or 40 000 people that change creates disruption that change creates disruption that change creates disruption that change creates anxiety that change creates anxiety that change creates anxiety it creates it creates it creates opportunities to shepherd people and opportunities to shepherd people and opportunities to shepherd people and love people through that change in that love people through that change in that love people through that change in that transition and so what i'd love for you transition and so what i'd love for you transition and so what i'd love for you to do is you know to the degree to which to do is you know to the degree to which to do is you know to the degree to which you know you're able to sort of peel you know you're able to sort of peel you know you're able to sort of peel back some layers here and point to some back some layers here and point to some back some layers here and point to some specific things is how you have gone specific things is how you have gone specific things is how you have gone about um as a leader of the about um as a leader of the about um as a leader of the communications department choosing how communications department choosing how communications department choosing how to communicate what to communicate who to communicate what to communicate who to communicate what to communicate who to communicate to uh what platforms to to communicate to uh what platforms to to communicate to uh what platforms to use and there's a lot of different use and there's a lot of different use and there's a lot of different dynamic and a lot of different moving dynamic and a lot of different moving dynamic and a lot of different moving parts here but what have been the things parts here but what have been the things parts here but what have been the things that have have that that have been most that have have that that have been most that have have that that have been most effective for you and how would you effective for you and how would you effective for you and how would you coach others who are going through maybe coach others who are going through maybe coach others who are going through maybe similar situations that you're going similar situations that you're going similar situations that you're going through that's so great so there's so through that's so great so there's so through that's so great so there's so much there and so i would say also by much there and so i would say also by much there and so i would say also by the way of context my previous role i the way of context my previous role i the way of context my previous role i did as you know as i mentioned before did as you know as i mentioned before did as you know as i mentioned before brand strategy i worked for fortune 10 brand strategy i worked for fortune 10 brand strategy i worked for fortune 10 and brands huge brands highly corporate and brands huge brands highly corporate and brands huge brands highly corporate and so tried to bring that corporate and so tried to bring that corporate and so tried to bring that corporate mentality to the church and mentality to the church and mentality to the church and communications in the church is a communications in the church is a communications in the church is a different beast it's a different it's a different beast it's a different it's a different beast it's a different it's a different opportunity it's an different opportunity it's an different opportunity it's an opportunity for care it's a means by opportunity for care it's a means by opportunity for care it's a means by which you disciple your people that which you disciple your people that which you disciple your people that doesn't mean we don't use uh strive for doesn't mean we don't use uh strive for doesn't mean we don't use uh strive for excellence or use best practices or do excellence or use best practices or do excellence or use best practices or do all the same things um but if there's a all the same things um but if there's a all the same things um but if there's a different layer to it so different layer to it so different layer to it so that's by way of context going i learned that's by way of context going i learned that's by way of context going i learned that the hard way so if you're bringing that the hard way so if you're bringing that the hard way so if you're bringing in that that not everything works in the in that that not everything works in the in that that not everything works in the corporate world that it works if you're corporate world that it works if you're corporate world that it works if you're one of those communications directors one of those communications directors one of those communications directors that have made the jumps um not that have made the jumps um not that have made the jumps um not everything is going to work so you just everything is going to work so you just everything is going to work so you just want to make sure and i've learned the

want to make sure and i've learned the want to make sure and i've learned the hard way i've had a lot of people hard way i've had a lot of people hard way i've had a lot of people sharing so um by way of context just to sharing so um by way of context just to sharing so um by way of context just to give just your listeners a little bit of give just your listeners a little bit of give just your listeners a little bit of context because i i would i don't know context because i i would i don't know context because i i would i don't know that everybody would know i would doubt that everybody would know i would doubt that everybody would know i would doubt that most people would know but here at that most people would know but here at that most people would know but here at watermark and within the last year we've watermark and within the last year we've watermark and within the last year we've had i see our senior leader stepped down had i see our senior leader stepped down had i see our senior leader stepped down as well as another elder and so we are as well as another elder and so we are as well as another elder and so we are just in a in a series of massive just in a in a series of massive just in a in a series of massive transition and change and determining transition and change and determining transition and change and determining what's next um what's next um what's next um and we are elder led and so that's a and we are elder led and so that's a and we are elder led and so that's a really big deal um to understand that really big deal um to understand that really big deal um to understand that piece and then also as you said we're piece and then also as you said we're piece and then also as you said we're transitioning we have been for about transitioning we have been for about transitioning we have been for about three or four years but all of our three or four years but all of our three or four years but all of our campuses into individual independent campuses into individual independent campuses into individual independent local churches that are led by their own local churches that are led by their own local churches that are led by their own um um um own elders in their local context own elders in their local context own elders in their local context because we think that's the best way we because we think that's the best way we because we think that's the best way we found that that's the best way for our found that that's the best way for our found that that's the best way for our churches to be led is to have elders in churches to be led is to have elders in churches to be led is to have elders in their own local context so their own local context so their own local context so all of that's happening so i think um all of that's happening so i think um all of that's happening so i think um and so i think we've learned i've and so i think we've learned i've and so i think we've learned i've learned a lot over the last few months learned a lot over the last few months learned a lot over the last few months about what it looks like to care for about what it looks like to care for about what it looks like to care for people people people um your members specifically in times of um your members specifically in times of um your members specifically in times of transition so i i have kind of three transition so i i have kind of three transition so i i have kind of three principles if you'll for what i've kind principles if you'll for what i've kind principles if you'll for what i've kind of teased out so if you'll allow me one of teased out so if you'll allow me one of teased out so if you'll allow me one is i think is i think is i think in a time of transition and that could in a time of transition and that could in a time of transition and that could be i mean if you're a church of 10 be i mean if you're a church of 10 be i mean if you're a church of 10 or a church of 10 000 it could be a or a church of 10 000 it could be a or a church of 10 000 it could be a senior leadership change it could or it senior leadership change it could or it senior leadership change it could or it could be just any other transition so could be just any other transition so could be just any other transition so i'm hoping these can be extrapolated but i'm hoping these can be extrapolated but i'm hoping these can be extrapolated but number one is i would say know your number one is i would say know your number one is i would say know your north star and so for us at watermark north star and so for us at watermark north star and so for us at watermark that's honoring christ that's serving my that's honoring christ that's serving my that's honoring christ that's serving my elders and caring for my members all elders and caring for my members all elders and caring for my members all other priorities that's my other priorities that's my other priorities that's my communications priorities all of other communications priorities all of other communications priorities all of other priorities um ones that are even more priorities um ones that are even more priorities um ones that are even more external are just not not something i

external are just not not something i external are just not not something i can focus on so in those moments can focus on so in those moments can focus on so in those moments especially when you likely have limited especially when you likely have limited especially when you likely have limited time time is important clarity is time time is important clarity is time time is important clarity is important know your north star and so important know your north star and so important know your north star and so for me specifically the communications for me specifically the communications for me specifically the communications team i serve like in those moments of team i serve like in those moments of team i serve like in those moments of transition i was like i'm on the i'm on transition i was like i'm on the i'm on transition i was like i'm on the i'm on the elder like i'm here to serve my the elder like i'm here to serve my the elder like i'm here to serve my elders elders elders and so that looks like going into and so that looks like going into and so that looks like going into meetings with them and helping them meetings with them and helping them meetings with them and helping them giving them feedback anticipating their giving them feedback anticipating their giving them feedback anticipating their communications needs coming alongside of communications needs coming alongside of communications needs coming alongside of them and going here's here's what i them and going here's here's what i them and going here's here's what i would do um and so really serving and would do um and so really serving and would do um and so really serving and building a deep relationship with my building a deep relationship with my building a deep relationship with my elder team um and deep respect for them elder team um and deep respect for them elder team um and deep respect for them i would follow those men anywhere and so i would follow those men anywhere and so i would follow those men anywhere and so um it wasn't hard um but so really um it wasn't hard um but so really um it wasn't hard um but so really knowing my north star knowing my north star knowing my north star um was is kind of the first principle um was is kind of the first principle um was is kind of the first principle that i would talk through that i would talk through that i would talk through the other is so practically what does the other is so practically what does the other is so practically what does that look like to communicate a that look like to communicate a that look like to communicate a transition so i would recommend what we transition so i would recommend what we transition so i would recommend what we used was kind of an inside out approach used was kind of an inside out approach used was kind of an inside out approach and so it is an art and not a science to and so it is an art and not a science to and so it is an art and not a science to determine who to tell what when in what determine who to tell what when in what determine who to tell what when in what order because the order in which you order because the order in which you order because the order in which you tell people also communicates care um tell people also communicates care um tell people also communicates care um and appreciation so we started inside and appreciation so we started inside and appreciation so we started inside out so with all of those transitions we out so with all of those transitions we out so with all of those transitions we started with our staff um because our started with our staff um because our started with our staff um because our staff is going to be our staff are also staff is going to be our staff are also staff is going to be our staff are also all members they're also all in all members they're also all in all members they're also all in community groups they're also all community groups they're also all community groups they're also all leading ministries and they're going to leading ministries and they're going to leading ministries and they're going to get a lot of questions and so we want to get a lot of questions and so we want to get a lot of questions and so we want to make sure that they are cared for make sure that they are cared for make sure that they are cared for because again this is transitions are because again this is transitions are because again this is transitions are emotional and so this is not just a emotional and so this is not just a emotional and so this is not just a logical thing we're working through it's logical thing we're working through it's logical thing we're working through it's like no people are wrestling with this like no people are wrestling with this like no people are wrestling with this and so we want to make sure they're and so we want to make sure they're and so we want to make sure they're cared for first cared for first cared for first and that they're armed with the right and that they're armed with the right and that they're armed with the right information they can answer questions if information they can answer questions if information they can answer questions if a press if a member of the press a press if a member of the press a press if a member of the press approaches them how do they answer that

approaches them how do they answer that approaches them how do they answer that question as a side tip i would say the question as a side tip i would say the question as a side tip i would say the most important person one of the most most important person one of the most most important person one of the most important people in your organization to important people in your organization to important people in your organization to care for in a transition is whoever care for in a transition is whoever care for in a transition is whoever answers your phones and so literally i answers your phones and so literally i answers your phones and so literally i will walk downstairs to my girl jenna will walk downstairs to my girl jenna will walk downstairs to my girl jenna who is our our receptionist who's who is our our receptionist who's who is our our receptionist who's amazing and in a season where i think amazing and in a season where i think amazing and in a season where i think that she might all go how are you doing that she might all go how are you doing that she might all go how are you doing because she's the one that's going to because she's the one that's going to because she's the one that's going to have to answer the phone calls and she have to answer the phone calls and she have to answer the phone calls and she needs to feel confident and cared for so needs to feel confident and cared for so needs to feel confident and cared for so that's just a little pro tip don't that's just a little pro tip don't that's just a little pro tip don't forget about whoever answers your phones forget about whoever answers your phones forget about whoever answers your phones there you're they're in a really there you're they're in a really there you're they're in a really important part of your communications important part of your communications important part of your communications team whether you approach it or not um team whether you approach it or not um team whether you approach it or not um and so so from there so we start with and so so from there so we start with and so so from there so we start with staff staff staff and then inside out we move to our key and then inside out we move to our key and then inside out we move to our key lay leaders so here at watermark we call lay leaders so here at watermark we call lay leaders so here at watermark we call those shepherds um every one of our those shepherds um every one of our those shepherds um every one of our members is in a community group and members is in a community group and members is in a community group and those community groups are led by those community groups are led by those community groups are led by essentially what we call shepherds essentially what we call shepherds essentially what we call shepherds community shepherds that are over these community shepherds that are over these community shepherds that are over these community groups and so there are key community groups and so there are key community groups and so there are key leaders highly trusted we gathered them leaders highly trusted we gathered them leaders highly trusted we gathered them together for a face-to-face meeting to together for a face-to-face meeting to together for a face-to-face meeting to talk through what was happening to make talk through what was happening to make talk through what was happening to make sure that they knew because they were sure that they knew because they were sure that they knew because they were again gonna have to answer questions and again gonna have to answer questions and again gonna have to answer questions and then from there we moved to members at then from there we moved to members at then from there we moved to members at large so i would say uh moving outward large so i would say uh moving outward large so i would say uh moving outward inward outward and so from from our inward outward and so from from our inward outward and so from from our staff to key leaders to members in that staff to key leaders to members in that staff to key leaders to members in that order order order um was important for us and so that's um was important for us and so that's um was important for us and so that's the second principle was inside out and the second principle was inside out and the second principle was inside out and the third one is i would say again just the third one is i would say again just the third one is i would say again just seeing communication as a tool for seeing communication as a tool for seeing communication as a tool for caring people so knowing that it's not caring people so knowing that it's not caring people so knowing that it's not you can't just communicate all the facts you can't just communicate all the facts you can't just communicate all the facts like there's got to be a pastoral tone like there's got to be a pastoral tone like there's got to be a pastoral tone you have to anticipate people's you have to anticipate people's you have to anticipate people's questions and um just really see it as questions and um just really see it as questions and um just really see it as an opportunity to care for people and an opportunity to care for people and an opportunity to care for people and it's not it's not it's messy it's going

it's not it's not it's messy it's going it's not it's not it's messy it's going to be messy there's often so much gray to be messy there's often so much gray to be messy there's often so much gray here so we always wanted to be as clear here so we always wanted to be as clear here so we always wanted to be as clear as we possibly could clarity blesses as we possibly could clarity blesses as we possibly could clarity blesses people while still being pastoral and um people while still being pastoral and um people while still being pastoral and um making sure that we are pastoring people making sure that we are pastoring people making sure that we are pastoring people in the midst of that and so that looks in the midst of that and so that looks in the midst of that and so that looks pr practically like pr practically like pr practically like i don't ever write anything in isolation i don't ever write anything in isolation i don't ever write anything in isolation everything i wrote around transition everything i wrote around transition everything i wrote around transition always went up to my elders to go not always went up to my elders to go not always went up to my elders to go not just for clarity but also for pastoring just for clarity but also for pastoring just for clarity but also for pastoring and i would run it by we would run it by and i would run it by we would run it by and i would run it by we would run it by our different writers would run it by our different writers would run it by our different writers would run it by things to go hey are we pastoring we things to go hey are we pastoring we things to go hey are we pastoring we didn't do it perfectly goodness knows we didn't do it perfectly goodness knows we didn't do it perfectly goodness knows we did not do it perfectly but that's the did not do it perfectly but that's the did not do it perfectly but that's the other aspect we wanted to so i don't other aspect we wanted to so i don't other aspect we wanted to so i don't know if that kind of helps but those are know if that kind of helps but those are know if that kind of helps but those are kind of my three principles yeah north kind of my three principles yeah north kind of my three principles yeah north north star north star north star inside out and the third one is seeing inside out and the third one is seeing inside out and the third one is seeing communications as a tool for caring for communications as a tool for caring for communications as a tool for caring for people caring for people okay people caring for people okay people caring for people okay how how how have you uh what was your how how how have you uh what was your how how how have you uh what was your strategy in working with the media um strategy in working with the media um strategy in working with the media um and it doesn't you know it because you and it doesn't you know it because you and it doesn't you know it because you work with media probably all the time work with media probably all the time work with media probably all the time because you know you're you guys are because you know you're you guys are because you know you're you guys are you're a huge church right so not you're a huge church right so not you're a huge church right so not everybody's gonna have the same kind of everybody's gonna have the same kind of everybody's gonna have the same kind of role that you have however role that you have however role that you have however even if you're in a smaller church even if you're in a smaller church even if you're in a smaller church you're still gonna interact with the you're still gonna interact with the you're still gonna interact with the media you should interact with the media media you should interact with the media media you should interact with the media what's been your strategy uh to do that what's been your strategy uh to do that what's been your strategy uh to do that i think we have we have a general media i think we have we have a general media i think we have we have a general media approach and we also had one for this approach and we also had one for this approach and we also had one for this specific situation so again i knew my specific situation so again i knew my specific situation so again i knew my north star for this situation caring for north star for this situation caring for north star for this situation caring for honoring christ serving my members honoring christ serving my members honoring christ serving my members caring or serving my elders and caring caring or serving my elders and caring caring or serving my elders and caring for my members so what was not on the for my members so what was not on the for my members so what was not on the north star was the media for this one north star was the media for this one north star was the media for this one this is a family business and so that this is a family business and so that this is a family business and so that doesn't mean we're trying to hide

doesn't mean we're trying to hide doesn't mean we're trying to hide anything everything was available on our anything everything was available on our anything everything was available on our website and so nothing's hidden but i website and so nothing's hidden but i website and so nothing's hidden but i prioritize our members so we actually um prioritize our members so we actually um prioritize our members so we actually um we didn't interact with media on this we didn't interact with media on this we didn't interact with media on this one because our goal was to care for our one because our goal was to care for our one because our goal was to care for our members and so we wanted to communicate members and so we wanted to communicate members and so we wanted to communicate with them and so for this this one this with them and so for this this one this with them and so for this this one this was not one where we interacted with was not one where we interacted with was not one where we interacted with media now i we we handle that media now i we we handle that media now i we we handle that differently for different things we take differently for different things we take differently for different things we take i we have media requests um all the time i we have media requests um all the time i we have media requests um all the time and we will for certain things depending and we will for certain things depending and we will for certain things depending on the situation but for this one um on the situation but for this one um on the situation but for this one um again inside out we use internal again inside out we use internal again inside out we use internal channels specifically so face-to-face channels specifically so face-to-face channels specifically so face-to-face meetings a sunday morning but again meetings a sunday morning but again meetings a sunday morning but again that's all of it's public and easy that's all of it's public and easy that's all of it's public and easy and then um email one-to-one email was and then um email one-to-one email was and then um email one-to-one email was what we prioritized but we specifically what we prioritized but we specifically what we prioritized but we specifically in order to honestly that communicates in order to honestly that communicates in order to honestly that communicates care and honor i think to our members to care and honor i think to our members to care and honor i think to our members to go we are communicating this with you go we are communicating this with you go we are communicating this with you specifically you're the ones who have specifically you're the ones who have specifically you're the ones who have raised your hand and said raised your hand and said raised your hand and said i wanted to be shepherded at this local i wanted to be shepherded at this local i wanted to be shepherded at this local body you're the ones who are in it with body you're the ones who are in it with body you're the ones who are in it with us and so that is part of like us and so that is part of like us and so that is part of like who we chose was to prioritize hey you who we chose was to prioritize hey you who we chose was to prioritize hey you can't listen to all the voices we can't can't listen to all the voices we can't can't listen to all the voices we can't we don't have unlimited time and energy we don't have unlimited time and energy we don't have unlimited time and energy so we are going to prioritize and make a so we are going to prioritize and make a so we are going to prioritize and make a decision to interact primarily with our decision to interact primarily with our decision to interact primarily with our members on this so prioritize all those members on this so prioritize all those members on this so prioritize all those and that that had to do with what and that that had to do with what and that that had to do with what communication channels we we chose as communication channels we we chose as communication channels we we chose as well yeah well yeah well yeah well let me ask you a question on that well let me ask you a question on that well let me ask you a question on that because so you you did not prioritize because so you you did not prioritize because so you you did not prioritize communicating to the media however the communicating to the media however the communicating to the media however the media was definitely picking up and media was definitely picking up and media was definitely picking up and running stories running stories running stories so uh so uh so uh i'm sure you noticed that i'm sure that i'm sure you noticed that i'm sure that i'm sure you noticed that i'm sure that you had some responsibility to sort of you had some responsibility to sort of you had some responsibility to sort of you know i mean whatever the media is

you know i mean whatever the media is you know i mean whatever the media is producing the your church family is producing the your church family is producing the your church family is processing they're digesting it whether processing they're digesting it whether processing they're digesting it whether it's social media print media you know it's social media print media you know it's social media print media you know online articles blog posts um online articles blog posts um online articles blog posts um you know you know you know do you have a do you have a do you have a react and response process something react and response process something react and response process something that you would implement if someone that you would implement if someone that you would implement if someone reports something or you know promotes reports something or you know promotes reports something or you know promotes something that's truly false um something that's truly false um something that's truly false um how how would you go about that how how would you go about that how how would you go about that i think you have to it's a case-by-case i think you have to it's a case-by-case i think you have to it's a case-by-case basis it's who's who is asking the basis it's who's who is asking the basis it's who's who is asking the question um what's the size of their question um what's the size of their question um what's the size of their publication what's the reputation of the publication what's the reputation of the publication what's the reputation of the publication as well and so publication as well and so publication as well and so um we would make those requests um we would make those requests um we would make those requests differently and i think so we we process differently and i think so we we process differently and i think so we we process it in context of it's not it's not it in context of it's not it's not it in context of it's not it's not any media because we also get requests any media because we also get requests any media because we also get requests from a lot of different types of media from a lot of different types of media from a lot of different types of media or people and so i think if it would be or people and so i think if it would be or people and so i think if it would be one thing if a certain if you know a one thing if a certain if you know a one thing if a certain if you know a certain paper of record who's a large certain paper of record who's a large certain paper of record who's a large publication versus others who are who publication versus others who are who publication versus others who are who are potentially not as um widely known are potentially not as um widely known are potentially not as um widely known or potentially not as reputable so we or potentially not as reputable so we or potentially not as reputable so we also make the decisions based on what also make the decisions based on what also make the decisions based on what the the quality of the publication if the the quality of the publication if the the quality of the publication if that makes sense and so i don't feel a that makes sense and so i don't feel a that makes sense and so i don't feel a need to risk we don't feel i need to need to risk we don't feel i need to need to risk we don't feel i need to respond to every single thing we want to respond to every single thing we want to respond to every single thing we want to equip our members equip our members equip our members to think biblically about things and to to think biblically about things and to to think biblically about things and to have clarity that's who we're have clarity that's who we're have clarity that's who we're communicating with like that is our communicating with like that is our communicating with like that is our that's our north star and so and we'll that's our north star and so and we'll that's our north star and so and we'll honestly there is an element of hey we honestly there is an element of hey we honestly there is an element of hey we want to we don't feel the need to answer want to we don't feel the need to answer want to we don't feel the need to answer everything said about us everything said about us everything said about us um because we know what our north star

um because we know what our north star um because we know what our north star is so is so is so really laser focused on that so i don't really laser focused on that so i don't really laser focused on that so i don't know if that's a know if that's a know if that's a okay yeah okay yeah okay yeah that is a good answer we another one of that is a good answer we another one of that is a good answer we another one of our guests that uh by the time this our guests that uh by the time this our guests that uh by the time this podcast episode airs one of our probably podcast episode airs one of our probably podcast episode airs one of our probably one of the previous ones is justin dean one of the previous ones is justin dean one of the previous ones is justin dean who was the communications director at who was the communications director at who was the communications director at mars hill in seattle mars hill in seattle mars hill in seattle i'm just going to point to an episode of i'm just going to point to an episode of i'm just going to point to an episode of carrie new house podcast that justin did carrie new house podcast that justin did carrie new house podcast that justin did several years ago when he talked about several years ago when he talked about several years ago when he talked about dealing with the press in the media as dealing with the press in the media as dealing with the press in the media as it relates to it relates to it relates to stuff there's just stuff that goes on in stuff there's just stuff that goes on in stuff there's just stuff that goes on in churches sometimes and people are churches sometimes and people are churches sometimes and people are curious and and then there's people out curious and and then there's people out curious and and then there's people out there that are just trying to sell there that are just trying to sell there that are just trying to sell clicks right i mean ultimately they're clicks right i mean ultimately they're clicks right i mean ultimately they're posting and they're creating and they're posting and they're creating and they're posting and they're creating and they're they're communicating things for the they're communicating things for the they're communicating things for the sake of of getting of getting clicks and sake of of getting of getting clicks and sake of of getting of getting clicks and that's not always healthy and it's not that's not always healthy and it's not that's not always healthy and it's not always helpful so always helpful so always helpful so having a preemptive plan or strategy for having a preemptive plan or strategy for having a preemptive plan or strategy for when those things happen um is is pretty when those things happen um is is pretty when those things happen um is is pretty important and you know we we work with important and you know we we work with important and you know we we work with churches sometimes on reputation churches sometimes on reputation churches sometimes on reputation management after things have happened management after things have happened management after things have happened stuff has gotten into the media stuff has gotten into the media stuff has gotten into the media unfortunately the seo the search engine unfortunately the seo the search engine unfortunately the seo the search engine optimization of some of these optimization of some of these optimization of some of these publications trumps most of what we as publications trumps most of what we as publications trumps most of what we as the church are publishing and promoting the church are publishing and promoting the church are publishing and promoting so when people are googling the stuff we so when people are googling the stuff we so when people are googling the stuff we don't want them reading is the stuff don't want them reading is the stuff don't want them reading is the stuff that's making its way to the top of that's making its way to the top of that's making its way to the top of google's search rankings so um it can be google's search rankings so um it can be google's search rankings so um it can be true it can be very can be very tricky true it can be very can be very tricky true it can be very can be very tricky can be and i mean honestly i'm not can be and i mean honestly i'm not can be and i mean honestly i'm not trying to jesus duke at all but i also trying to jesus duke at all but i also trying to jesus duke at all but i also the scripture that comes to mind is you the scripture that comes to mind is you the scripture that comes to mind is you gotta entrust to the one that judges gotta entrust to the one that judges gotta entrust to the one that judges rightly um including with your church's

rightly um including with your church's rightly um including with your church's reputation that does not mean you do not reputation that does not mean you do not reputation that does not mean you do not think about seo we think about that all think about seo we think about that all think about seo we think about that all the time you don't think about hey it's the time you don't think about hey it's the time you don't think about hey it's a reputable a reputable a reputable a reputable media source comes to you a reputable media source comes to you a reputable media source comes to you with legitimate questions and you have with legitimate questions and you have with legitimate questions and you have vetted that reporter or things like that vetted that reporter or things like that vetted that reporter or things like that that is an opportunity for a that is an opportunity for a that is an opportunity for a conversation but that doesn't mean that conversation but that doesn't mean that conversation but that doesn't mean that you respond or react we prefer to we you respond or react we prefer to we you respond or react we prefer to we were supposed to respond and not react were supposed to respond and not react were supposed to respond and not react and so that doesn't mean that just and so that doesn't mean that just and so that doesn't mean that just because anybody writes anything about because anybody writes anything about because anybody writes anything about you you are you have to you have to you you are you have to you have to you you are you have to you have to necessarily react to that i would be necessarily react to that i would be necessarily react to that i would be thoughtful be prayerful thoughtful be prayerful thoughtful be prayerful um and really do your homework on who um and really do your homework on who um and really do your homework on who you're talking to and what the you're talking to and what the you're talking to and what the opportunity is and so um that's just opportunity is and so um that's just opportunity is and so um that's just kind of the way we think about it so i kind of the way we think about it so i kind of the way we think about it so i don't know if that's even a best don't know if that's even a best don't know if that's even a best practice from a pr perspective i don't practice from a pr perspective i don't practice from a pr perspective i don't know if i was if we hired a publicist know if i was if we hired a publicist know if i was if we hired a publicist they might say i'm crazy but that's the they might say i'm crazy but that's the they might say i'm crazy but that's the way that we that's the way we approach way that we that's the way we approach way that we that's the way we approach it no you you have dropped some truth it no you you have dropped some truth it no you you have dropped some truth you've dropped some some good stuff you've dropped some some good stuff you've dropped some some good stuff which that was that was respond and not which that was that was respond and not which that was that was respond and not react love that there are a lot of a lot react love that there are a lot of a lot react love that there are a lot of a lot of little truth bombs from caitlyn today of little truth bombs from caitlyn today of little truth bombs from caitlyn today oh hey oh hey oh hey i love that we're working on it so i i love that we're working on it so i i love that we're working on it so i gotta so uh let's set aside the gotta so uh let's set aside the gotta so uh let's set aside the transition uh let's set aside the fact transition uh let's set aside the fact transition uh let's set aside the fact that i think over the last you know uh that i think over the last you know uh that i think over the last you know uh year or so you've really just found your year or so you've really just found your year or so you've really just found your your groove with your team your groove with your team your groove with your team what's what's what's what's next are you constantly thinking what's next are you constantly thinking what's next are you constantly thinking about how you continue to change and get about how you continue to change and get about how you continue to change and get better as a team i mean does that go better as a team i mean does that go better as a team i mean does that go through your head as you're leading or through your head as you're leading or through your head as you're leading or are you just trying to like oh i'm i'm are you just trying to like oh i'm i'm are you just trying to like oh i'm i'm in the storm so to speak so i'm just in the storm so to speak so i'm just in the storm so to speak so i'm just waiting to see where god takes us or are waiting to see where god takes us or are waiting to see where god takes us or are you looking to the future you looking to the future you looking to the future um well right now i think we are working

um well right now i think we are working um well right now i think we are working that this is a leadership accident that that this is a leadership accident that that this is a leadership accident that is not mine but work the team and not is not mine but work the team and not is not mine but work the team and not the problem the team first and the the problem the team first and the the problem the team first and the problem second and so we are working the problem second and so we are working the problem second and so we are working the team right now and i do not know who team right now and i do not know who team right now and i do not know who said that somebody else is smart enough said that somebody else is smart enough said that somebody else is smart enough um but so right now i'm working the team um but so right now i'm working the team um but so right now i'm working the team and so we're just making sure we've got and so we're just making sure we've got and so we're just making sure we've got the right people in the right seats the right people in the right seats the right people in the right seats doing the right thing and running the doing the right thing and running the doing the right thing and running the right process right process right process and then i think we've got to build and then i think we've got to build and then i think we've got to build we're trying to build the engine before we're trying to build the engine before we're trying to build the engine before we figure out exactly how far we want to we figure out exactly how far we want to we figure out exactly how far we want to fly we know where we're going like i fly we know where we're going like i fly we know where we're going like i know exactly kind of what what a bar know exactly kind of what what a bar know exactly kind of what what a bar looks like which is hey i want i want to looks like which is hey i want i want to looks like which is hey i want i want to build a bigger megaphone for the gospel build a bigger megaphone for the gospel build a bigger megaphone for the gospel um for my ministries like that's my goal um for my ministries like that's my goal um for my ministries like that's my goal and so but we got to build we're having and so but we got to build we're having and so but we got to build we're having to dismantle bad processes or old to dismantle bad processes or old to dismantle bad processes or old processes and reassemble and so that is processes and reassemble and so that is processes and reassemble and so that is where my my team going into the summer where my my team going into the summer where my my team going into the summer it was they had three priorities for me it was they had three priorities for me it was they had three priorities for me which is process we're gonna work on which is process we're gonna work on which is process we're gonna work on process we're going to work on hires process we're going to work on hires process we're going to work on hires getting the right people in the right getting the right people in the right getting the right people in the right seats because we went on a hiring freeze seats because we went on a hiring freeze seats because we went on a hiring freeze on my team until we figured out the on my team until we figured out the on my team until we figured out the right process because adding adding more right process because adding adding more right process because adding adding more people to a bad process just makes a people to a bad process just makes a people to a bad process just makes a bigger mess and so we said we stopped bigger mess and so we said we stopped bigger mess and so we said we stopped about a year ago we were like no more about a year ago we were like no more about a year ago we were like no more even though we had people transition off even though we had people transition off even though we had people transition off we like we like we like really scaled down and said we got to really scaled down and said we got to really scaled down and said we got to fix the process first and now we're in fix the process first and now we're in fix the process first and now we're in the pro now we're almost done um with a the pro now we're almost done um with a the pro now we're almost done um with a hiring and then the third one was just hiring and then the third one was just hiring and then the third one was just coming out of a season of a really tough coming out of a season of a really tough coming out of a season of a really tough ministry season for my team i mean a ministry season for my team i mean a ministry season for my team i mean a communications uh to be in any communications uh to be in any communications uh to be in any communications role over the pandemic is communications role over the pandemic is communications role over the pandemic is exhausting but and then layer on top of exhausting but and then layer on top of exhausting but and then layer on top of it all the transition watermark cuts so it all the transition watermark cuts so it all the transition watermark cuts so rest was another third one so that was rest was another third one so that was rest was another third one so that was my team right now so i'm working we're

my team right now so i'm working we're my team right now so i'm working we're working the last two which is process working the last two which is process working the last two which is process and hires we're almost there i think and hires we're almost there i think and hires we're almost there i think that we'll be there in about a month um that we'll be there in about a month um that we'll be there in about a month um and so we're about to unveil it to the and so we're about to unveil it to the and so we're about to unveil it to the rest of our staff in a couple weeks but rest of our staff in a couple weeks but rest of our staff in a couple weeks but and then we'll start to work through hey and then we'll start to work through hey and then we'll start to work through hey what do the measurable goals look like what do the measurable goals look like what do the measurable goals look like for the next year or so for the next year or so for the next year or so in terms of where we're going but we're in terms of where we're going but we're in terms of where we're going but we're also kind of i mean we're we're also kind of i mean we're we're also kind of i mean we're we're resetting in terms of we're we're adding resetting in terms of we're we're adding resetting in terms of we're we're adding some some people to our elder team some some people to our elder team some some people to our elder team and so um we are we're our elder team is and so um we are we're our elder team is and so um we are we're our elder team is growing which is really fun but we're growing which is really fun but we're growing which is really fun but we're kind of going to have to again we're kind of going to have to again we're kind of going to have to again we're elder led so as soon as we they figure elder led so as soon as we they figure elder led so as soon as we they figure out what their priorities are after out what their priorities are after out what their priorities are after we've resettled then we can also build we've resettled then we can also build we've resettled then we can also build i'm well i've told my older team i can i'm well i've told my older team i can i'm well i've told my older team i can build whatever plane you want me to build whatever plane you want me to build whatever plane you want me to build you just got to kind of tell me build you just got to kind of tell me build you just got to kind of tell me where you want me to fly it so we'll see where you want me to fly it so we'll see where you want me to fly it so we'll see we'll figure it out it's been fun this we'll figure it out it's been fun this we'll figure it out it's been fun this might be an obvious uh might be an obvious uh might be an obvious uh question or answer but question or answer but question or answer but give me the top two or three ways that give me the top two or three ways that give me the top two or three ways that watermark's grown the best has it been watermark's grown the best has it been watermark's grown the best has it been your own people inviting others or have your own people inviting others or have your own people inviting others or have you guys been on you know do you do a you guys been on you know do you do a you guys been on you know do you do a lot of advertising tell me lot of advertising tell me lot of advertising tell me what the growth has been like um the our what the growth has been like um the our what the growth has been like um the our growth is primarily word of mouth and it growth is primarily word of mouth and it growth is primarily word of mouth and it is we see our ministries as side doors is we see our ministries as side doors is we see our ministries as side doors to the church and so those are our most to the church and so those are our most to the church and so those are our most significant side doors to the church so significant side doors to the church so significant side doors to the church so uh the think about um the porch which is uh the think about um the porch which is uh the think about um the porch which is our young adult ministry reengage our young adult ministry reengage our young adult ministry reengage marriage ministry marriage ministry marriage ministry um regeneration so those are side doors um regeneration so those are side doors um regeneration so those are side doors where we can meet people where they're where we can meet people where they're where we can meet people where they're at care for them if they're in if at care for them if they're in if at care for them if they're in if they're in recovery or whatever care for they're in recovery or whatever care for they're in recovery or whatever care for them and then usher them into next step them and then usher them into next step them and then usher them into next step to be part of the church to be part of to be part of the church to be part of to be part of the church to be part of commute our community which is where we

commute our community which is where we commute our community which is where we feel like life change happens the best feel like life change happens the best feel like life change happens the best in the context of community and so in the context of community and so in the context of community and so that is truly the way that we think that is truly the way that we think that is truly the way that we think about it is actually which is why we're about it is actually which is why we're about it is actually which is why we're kind of a funny inverted church model we kind of a funny inverted church model we kind of a funny inverted church model we absolutely want to invite people on absolutely want to invite people on absolutely want to invite people on sundays um we don't do sundays um we don't do sundays um we don't do paid advertising a lot of paid paid advertising a lot of paid paid advertising a lot of paid advertising for our sundays i i'm sure advertising for our sundays i i'm sure advertising for our sundays i i'm sure we've done that in the past um for like we've done that in the past um for like we've done that in the past um for like a christmas or an easter something to a christmas or an easter something to a christmas or an easter something to get people on board but primarily we we get people on board but primarily we we get people on board but primarily we we put our energy into our put our energy into our put our energy into our our midweek ministries because that's a our midweek ministries because that's a our midweek ministries because that's a that's a way to care for people um who that's a way to care for people um who that's a way to care for people um who are and then go hey a lot of people are and then go hey a lot of people are and then go hey a lot of people who've been hurt by the church who would who've been hurt by the church who would who've been hurt by the church who would not people come on for example not people come on for example not people come on for example on tuesday nights young adults come on tuesday nights young adults come on tuesday nights young adults come who are all so i think 3 000 18 to 25 who are all so i think 3 000 18 to 25 who are all so i think 3 000 18 to 25 year olds you know or 22 to 25 year olds year olds you know or 22 to 25 year olds year olds you know or 22 to 25 year olds here on tuesday nights a lot of them here on tuesday nights a lot of them here on tuesday nights a lot of them have church hurt they think the church have church hurt they think the church have church hurt they think the church is they've grown up in dead churches or is they've grown up in dead churches or is they've grown up in dead churches or they've never and so they would never they've never and so they would never they've never and so they would never they would not probably come on a sunday they would not probably come on a sunday they would not probably come on a sunday but they'll come to meet a couple a but they'll come to meet a couple a but they'll come to meet a couple a couple other thousand young adults you couple other thousand young adults you couple other thousand young adults you know and then you start to go hey you know and then you start to go hey you know and then you start to go hey you disciple them where they're at and then disciple them where they're at and then disciple them where they're at and then you start to go hey what's your next you start to go hey what's your next you start to go hey what's your next step to serve to get into community um step to serve to get into community um step to serve to get into community um and to really to start to to be part of and to really to start to to be part of and to really to start to to be part of the life of the church the life of the church the life of the church um so that's really our that's why we um so that's really our that's why we um so that's really our that's why we have kind of a funny funny inverted have kind of a funny funny inverted have kind of a funny funny inverted model is that we are we are monday model is that we are we are monday model is that we are we are monday through monday through but then also we through monday through but then also we through monday through but then also we just go ugh just go ugh just go ugh stories are the best currency in terms stories are the best currency in terms stories are the best currency in terms of inviting so just telling a lot of of inviting so just telling a lot of of inviting so just telling a lot of stories and going hey there's hope in stories and going hey there's hope in stories and going hey there's hope in christ we want to help um so come on i christ we want to help um so come on i christ we want to help um so come on i don't know you're you're speaking it i don't know you're you're speaking it i don't know you're you're speaking it i love it i love it because i you know love it i love it because i you know love it i love it because i you know what what what yes of course we want to invite people

yes of course we want to invite people yes of course we want to invite people to sunday duh you know we want him in a to sunday duh you know we want him in a to sunday duh you know we want him in a seat but i i think we seat but i i think we seat but i i think we a lot of churches make the mistake of a lot of churches make the mistake of a lot of churches make the mistake of that that was what we used to do years that that was what we used to do years that that was what we used to do years and years ago but these days people and years ago but these days people and years ago but these days people aren't ready to take that leap to come aren't ready to take that leap to come aren't ready to take that leap to come to sit in a church because they grew up to sit in a church because they grew up to sit in a church because they grew up going to their parents church and it was going to their parents church and it was going to their parents church and it was boring irrelevant and predictable boring irrelevant and predictable boring irrelevant and predictable and so they're like why would i want to and so they're like why would i want to and so they're like why would i want to do that so your strategy i think is do that so your strategy i think is do that so your strategy i think is amazing you go to them and their felt amazing you go to them and their felt amazing you go to them and their felt needs space and connect with them at needs space and connect with them at needs space and connect with them at that level through your through the the that level through your through the the that level through your through the the ministry as a side door that's a great ministry as a side door that's a great ministry as a side door that's a great that's a great picture of it people that's a great picture of it people that's a great picture of it people people see through like people just like people see through like people just like people see through like people just like they see through i think the advertising they see through i think the advertising they see through i think the advertising like advertising and the flashy set like like advertising and the flashy set like like advertising and the flashy set like i'm like that's not what they want they i'm like that's not what they want they i'm like that's not what they want they want they want community they want want they want community they want want they want community they want authentic relationships that's what authentic relationships that's what authentic relationships that's what people are needing right now especially people are needing right now especially people are needing right now especially post-profits i go oh my gosh the help post-profits i go oh my gosh the help post-profits i go oh my gosh the help like the best way to get people in your like the best way to get people in your like the best way to get people in your church is to invest in your members to church is to invest in your members to church is to invest in your members to invest in your members and to make sure invest in your members and to make sure invest in your members and to make sure they're being discipled and that they they're being discipled and that they they're being discipled and that they see the value of evangelism and going see the value of evangelism and going see the value of evangelism and going outward but then like inside out outward but then like inside out outward but then like inside out approach of going you just want to approach of going you just want to approach of going you just want to disciple people really well it's like disciple people really well it's like disciple people really well it's like turns out turns out you know jesus jesus turns out turns out you know jesus jesus turns out turns out you know jesus jesus you had only had 12. and look what you had only had 12. and look what you had only had 12. and look what happened um and so i go just if you have happened um and so i go just if you have happened um and so i go just if you have anywhere to invest invest in your anywhere to invest invest in your anywhere to invest invest in your leaders invest in your members disciple leaders invest in your members disciple leaders invest in your members disciple them make sure they understand the value them make sure they understand the value them make sure they understand the value of serving of evangelism and of serving of evangelism and of serving of evangelism and yeah well there's a there's a gallon our yeah well there's a there's a gallon our yeah well there's a there's a gallon our team maddie she's really smart she's a team maddie she's really smart she's a team maddie she's really smart she's a former communication director at former communication director at former communication director at northview and she's on our team and and northview and she's on our team and and northview and she's on our team and and she painted this picture for me she goes she painted this picture for me she goes she painted this picture for me she goes you know i what i tried to coach you know i what i tried to coach you know i what i tried to coach ministries on is hey we're not trying to

ministries on is hey we're not trying to ministries on is hey we're not trying to help promote your ministry to reach the help promote your ministry to reach the help promote your ministry to reach the masses no no no we want to turn that masses no no no we want to turn that masses no no no we want to turn that funnel upside down we want to help you funnel upside down we want to help you funnel upside down we want to help you reach the few and those few reach the reach the few and those few reach the reach the few and those few reach the masses and that's how you grow that's masses and that's how you grow that's masses and that's how you grow that's healthy growth that's the best way healthy growth that's the best way healthy growth that's the best way that's sticky growth that's the way you that's sticky growth that's the way you that's sticky growth that's the way you should be investing in into your should be investing in into your should be investing in into your ministries and i i just love that ministries and i i just love that ministries and i i just love that picture of yeah that's the church that's picture of yeah that's the church that's picture of yeah that's the church that's how that's how that's how it started how that's how that's how it started how that's how that's how it started that's how it started jesus connected that's how it started jesus connected that's how it started jesus connected with a few and from there it grew and i with a few and from there it grew and i with a few and from there it grew and i i love that approach yeah yeah i love that approach yeah yeah i love that approach yeah yeah all right my friends all right my friends all right my friends we've been talking a long time we've been talking a long time we've been talking a long time and it is time for it it is time for us and it is time for it it is time for us and it is time for it it is time for us to it is time for us to wrap it up uh to it is time for us to wrap it up uh to it is time for us to wrap it up uh caitlyn you have been so gracious with caitlyn you have been so gracious with caitlyn you have been so gracious with us to uh give us this hour of your time us to uh give us this hour of your time us to uh give us this hour of your time today and uh i just i just want to say today and uh i just i just want to say today and uh i just i just want to say thanks we'll uh we'll get jason here to thanks we'll uh we'll get jason here to thanks we'll uh we'll get jason here to dallas sometime soon and we'll all go dallas sometime soon and we'll all go dallas sometime soon and we'll all go grab some tacos or something there you grab some tacos or something there you grab some tacos or something there you go uh get to see each other face to face go uh get to see each other face to face go uh get to see each other face to face uh as we wrap up here caitlyn um if our uh as we wrap up here caitlyn um if our uh as we wrap up here caitlyn um if our listeners or viewers would like to have listeners or viewers would like to have listeners or viewers would like to have a conversation with you connect with you a conversation with you connect with you a conversation with you connect with you online what's what's the best way for online what's what's the best way for online what's what's the best way for them to do that you can find me on the them to do that you can find me on the them to do that you can find me on the watermark website so go to watermark.org watermark website so go to watermark.org watermark website so go to watermark.org um and look for caitlyn van wagener uh um and look for caitlyn van wagener uh um and look for caitlyn van wagener uh you can find me um and you can send me you can find me um and you can send me you can find me um and you can send me an email an email an email awesome hey again caitlin thank you so awesome hey again caitlin thank you so awesome hey again caitlin thank you so much we really appreciate appreciate the much we really appreciate appreciate the much we really appreciate appreciate the work that you're doing what watermark is work that you're doing what watermark is work that you're doing what watermark is doing and doing and doing and yeah thanks again for spending time with yeah thanks again for spending time with yeah thanks again for spending time with us today of course appreciate y'all us today of course appreciate y'all us today of course appreciate y'all thanks for having me on thanks for having me on thanks for having me on [Music]