The Rumored Death of Church SEO | Jason Collier

[Music] [Music] Maybe the biggest takeaway that I'd like Maybe the biggest takeaway that I'd like Maybe the biggest takeaway that I'd like to get across to people is that GEO and to get across to people is that GEO and to get across to people is that GEO and SEO aren't so fundamentally different. SEO aren't so fundamentally different. SEO aren't so fundamentally different. It's not like you're doing two It's not like you're doing two It's not like you're doing two completely separate activities. There completely separate activities. There completely separate activities. There are nuances and there are things that are nuances and there are things that are nuances and there are things that are more specific to one than the other. are more specific to one than the other. are more specific to one than the other. But if your overall fundamental SEO is But if your overall fundamental SEO is But if your overall fundamental SEO is very strong, at minimum, your GEO is very strong, at minimum, your GEO is very strong, at minimum, your GEO is going to be decent. going to be decent. going to be decent. Welcome to another episode of the Welcome to another episode of the Welcome to another episode of the Missional Marketing Podcast. My name is Missional Marketing Podcast. My name is Missional Marketing Podcast. My name is Bart Blair. I'm the co-host of the show. Bart Blair. I'm the co-host of the show. Bart Blair. I'm the co-host of the show. I sit alongside the CEO of missional I sit alongside the CEO of missional I sit alongside the CEO of missional marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. And uh we marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. And uh we marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. And uh we have been producing this podcast for have been producing this podcast for have been producing this podcast for over 5 years with a goal of helping over 5 years with a goal of helping over 5 years with a goal of helping churches grow by leveraging digital churches grow by leveraging digital churches grow by leveraging digital marketing and effective communications. marketing and effective communications. marketing and effective communications. Uh this is, I believe, if I've done the Uh this is, I believe, if I've done the Uh this is, I believe, if I've done the math correctly, the 173rd episode of our math correctly, the 173rd episode of our math correctly, the 173rd episode of our show. And if you happen to be new to the show. And if you happen to be new to the show. And if you happen to be new to the podcast, make sure that you subscribe so podcast, make sure that you subscribe so podcast, make sure that you subscribe so that you don't miss future episodes. And that you don't miss future episodes. And that you don't miss future episodes. And maybe maybe you should just go back and maybe maybe you should just go back and maybe maybe you should just go back and check out the archives, whether that's check out the archives, whether that's check out the archives, whether that's on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or on on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or on on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or on YouTube, wherever you happen to be YouTube, wherever you happen to be YouTube, wherever you happen to be consuming this content. Uh we have done consuming this content. Uh we have done consuming this content. Uh we have done a lot of interviews over the course of a lot of interviews over the course of a lot of interviews over the course of the last 5 years. We have done deep the last 5 years. We have done deep the last 5 years. We have done deep dives into all things church marketing, dives into all things church marketing, dives into all things church marketing, communications, AI, you name it. And communications, AI, you name it. And communications, AI, you name it. And hopefully you'll find some stuff in the hopefully you'll find some stuff in the hopefully you'll find some stuff in the archives that is helpful for you. Today archives that is helpful for you. Today archives that is helpful for you. Today sharing an interview with you that we sharing an interview with you that we sharing an interview with you that we recently did with our colleague Jason recently did with our colleague Jason recently did with our colleague Jason Collier. It has been a little confusing Collier. It has been a little confusing Collier. It has been a little confusing over the years to have two Jasons on our over the years to have two Jasons on our over the years to have two Jasons on our team. Jason Hamrock, our CEO, Jason team. Jason Hamrock, our CEO, Jason team. Jason Hamrock, our CEO, Jason Collier, our senior developer. Um, make Collier, our senior developer. Um, make Collier, our senior developer. Um, make no mistake, they are very different men no mistake, they are very different men no mistake, they are very different men and think very differently. Uh, Jason and think very differently. Uh, Jason and think very differently. Uh, Jason Collier is our senior developer and he

Collier is our senior developer and he Collier is our senior developer and he is brilliant when it comes to all things is brilliant when it comes to all things is brilliant when it comes to all things technical, SEO, programming, full stack technical, SEO, programming, full stack technical, SEO, programming, full stack development, all that stuff that I don't development, all that stuff that I don't development, all that stuff that I don't really understand at all. But he also really understand at all. But he also really understand at all. But he also has a gift of being able to explain has a gift of being able to explain has a gift of being able to explain things from that technical side of things from that technical side of things from that technical side of things in a way that help pastors like things in a way that help pastors like things in a way that help pastors like me and hopefully pastors and me and hopefully pastors and me and hopefully pastors and communications directors like you communications directors like you communications directors like you understand these things. Today our understand these things. Today our understand these things. Today our conversation is about SEO, but not like conversation is about SEO, but not like conversation is about SEO, but not like we usually talk about SEO. In fact, we usually talk about SEO. In fact, we usually talk about SEO. In fact, we're talking about the reported death we're talking about the reported death we're talking about the reported death of SEO. I don't know if you ever see of SEO. I don't know if you ever see of SEO. I don't know if you ever see these articles online, but I've been these articles online, but I've been these articles online, but I've been reading articles all over the place that reading articles all over the place that reading articles all over the place that say that AI is rendering SEO, search say that AI is rendering SEO, search say that AI is rendering SEO, search engine optimization, dead. And I wanted engine optimization, dead. And I wanted engine optimization, dead. And I wanted to pick Jason Collier's brain on whether to pick Jason Collier's brain on whether to pick Jason Collier's brain on whether or not this is actually true. And what or not this is actually true. And what or not this is actually true. And what we learned is no, it's not true. Uh it's we learned is no, it's not true. Uh it's we learned is no, it's not true. Uh it's just a rumor. SEO is not dying. SEO is just a rumor. SEO is not dying. SEO is just a rumor. SEO is not dying. SEO is not going anywhere. Although there are not going anywhere. Although there are not going anywhere. Although there are probably some shifts in our SEO that we probably some shifts in our SEO that we probably some shifts in our SEO that we need to consider and the way that we need to consider and the way that we need to consider and the way that we optimize our websites so that we are optimize our websites so that we are optimize our websites so that we are both found by Google and Bing and both found by Google and Bing and both found by Google and Bing and Duck.Go go and whatever search engines Duck.Go go and whatever search engines Duck.Go go and whatever search engines people are using, but also that we're people are using, but also that we're people are using, but also that we're able to be found uh and um reported back able to be found uh and um reported back able to be found uh and um reported back by ChatGpt and Claude and Perplexity and by ChatGpt and Claude and Perplexity and by ChatGpt and Claude and Perplexity and Grock and Gemini and all the other large Grock and Gemini and all the other large Grock and Gemini and all the other large language models that people are using uh language models that people are using uh language models that people are using uh to do searches online these days.

to do searches online these days. to do searches online these days. Anyway, I think it's a very fascinating Anyway, I think it's a very fascinating Anyway, I think it's a very fascinating conversation. I hope that there are some conversation. I hope that there are some conversation. I hope that there are some practical tips that you uh can um take practical tips that you uh can um take practical tips that you uh can um take away, maybe some things that you can away, maybe some things that you can away, maybe some things that you can apply to your own church's website. If apply to your own church's website. If apply to your own church's website. If you'd like to do a deeper dive with you'd like to do a deeper dive with you'd like to do a deeper dive with Jason Hamrock and me about your website Jason Hamrock and me about your website Jason Hamrock and me about your website SEO and talk about this GEO concept, SEO and talk about this GEO concept, SEO and talk about this GEO concept, we'd love to have a call with you. You we'd love to have a call with you. You we'd love to have a call with you. You can reach out and u we'd be happy to uh can reach out and u we'd be happy to uh can reach out and u we'd be happy to uh set up a free consultation just to chat set up a free consultation just to chat set up a free consultation just to chat about your church and where you are and about your church and where you are and about your church and where you are and what improvements you might want to make what improvements you might want to make what improvements you might want to make on your church website. And uh I should on your church website. And uh I should on your church website. And uh I should also mention that in September of this also mention that in September of this also mention that in September of this year, we are hosting a um conference in year, we are hosting a um conference in year, we are hosting a um conference in Chicago u and that is the church Chicago u and that is the church Chicago u and that is the church communications conference. Uh we held communications conference. Uh we held communications conference. Uh we held one last fall in Dallas. It was a huge one last fall in Dallas. It was a huge one last fall in Dallas. It was a huge hit. We're doing it in Chicago this hit. We're doing it in Chicago this hit. We're doing it in Chicago this year. So, at the time that you're year. So, at the time that you're year. So, at the time that you're listening to this podcast, there's still listening to this podcast, there's still listening to this podcast, there's still plenty of time for you to register. plenty of time for you to register. plenty of time for you to register. Still plenty of time for you to make Still plenty of time for you to make Still plenty of time for you to make travel plans and we hope that you will. travel plans and we hope that you will. travel plans and we hope that you will. I will link to the in the show notes to I will link to the in the show notes to I will link to the in the show notes to the conference and my discount code. I the conference and my discount code. I the conference and my discount code. I have a discount code that I can give you have a discount code that I can give you have a discount code that I can give you to get you a great deal on the to get you a great deal on the to get you a great deal on the conference. At the conference, we'll be conference. At the conference, we'll be conference. At the conference, we'll be talking about all things church talking about all things church talking about all things church communications, marketing, and communications, marketing, and communications, marketing, and artificial intelligence. And we have a a artificial intelligence. And we have a a artificial intelligence. And we have a a guest speaker. There going to be a few guest speaker. There going to be a few guest speaker. There going to be a few keynote speakers, but one of them is keynote speakers, but one of them is keynote speakers, but one of them is Mark McDonald, who is um leads an Mark McDonald, who is um leads an Mark McDonald, who is um leads an organization called Be Known for organization called Be Known for organization called Be Known for Something. I'm not sure if you've uh Something. I'm not sure if you've uh Something. I'm not sure if you've uh listened to some of our past episodes.

listened to some of our past episodes. listened to some of our past episodes. Mark's been on the show a couple of Mark's been on the show a couple of Mark's been on the show a couple of times. Great friend of ours. I'm really times. Great friend of ours. I'm really times. Great friend of ours. I'm really excited to have have him as one of our excited to have have him as one of our excited to have have him as one of our keynote speakers at the conference. Um keynote speakers at the conference. Um keynote speakers at the conference. Um that's enough for me. This has been a that's enough for me. This has been a that's enough for me. This has been a long introduction to what's going to be long introduction to what's going to be long introduction to what's going to be a very insightful podcast episode for a very insightful podcast episode for a very insightful podcast episode for you. So without any further delay, you. So without any further delay, you. So without any further delay, here's Jason Hamrock and me and our here's Jason Hamrock and me and our here's Jason Hamrock and me and our recent interview with Jason Collier. recent interview with Jason Collier. recent interview with Jason Collier. Jason Collier, thank you so much for Jason Collier, thank you so much for Jason Collier, thank you so much for joining Mr. Hamrock and me on the joining Mr. Hamrock and me on the joining Mr. Hamrock and me on the podcast today. podcast today. podcast today. Yeah, I'm back again. So it must have Yeah, I'm back again. So it must have Yeah, I'm back again. So it must have been a slow period of guests if you're been a slow period of guests if you're been a slow period of guests if you're having me back on. having me back on. having me back on. That's what that's what you said before That's what that's what you said before That's what that's what you said before we started recording. It is not true. we started recording. It is not true. we started recording. It is not true. You are a wealth of knowledge and You are a wealth of knowledge and You are a wealth of knowledge and information. information. information. It feels true. It feels true. It feels true. It feels true. It's not true. Uh I I It feels true. It's not true. Uh I I It feels true. It's not true. Uh I I would record this with you every single would record this with you every single would record this with you every single week. I we called this, you know, Bart week. I we called this, you know, Bart week. I we called this, you know, Bart and the two Jasons or something like and the two Jasons or something like and the two Jasons or something like that. But the problem is you have too that. But the problem is you have too that. But the problem is you have too many things going on to be a regular many things going on to be a regular many things going on to be a regular guest on the podcast. So, we just bring guest on the podcast. So, we just bring guest on the podcast. So, we just bring you on from time to time to talk about you on from time to time to talk about you on from time to time to talk about things that you'll be able you'll be things that you'll be able you'll be things that you'll be able you'll be able to bring a level of expertise that able to bring a level of expertise that able to bring a level of expertise that maybe Mr. Hamrock and I uh can't and we maybe Mr. Hamrock and I uh can't and we maybe Mr. Hamrock and I uh can't and we really appreciate uh you making the time really appreciate uh you making the time really appreciate uh you making the time to be with us today. Um before we get to be with us today. Um before we get to be with us today. Um before we get into our topic uh of discussion today, into our topic uh of discussion today, into our topic uh of discussion today, Jason, can you just kind of give our Jason, can you just kind of give our Jason, can you just kind of give our audience a little bit of an overview of audience a little bit of an overview of audience a little bit of an overview of what your skill set is and what your what your skill set is and what your what your skill set is and what your role is on the missional marketing team?

role is on the missional marketing team? role is on the missional marketing team? Sure. Yeah. So, I do a lot of techy Sure. Yeah. So, I do a lot of techy Sure. Yeah. So, I do a lot of techy things at missional marketing. Um a fair things at missional marketing. Um a fair things at missional marketing. Um a fair amount of web development, uh building amount of web development, uh building amount of web development, uh building church websites, handling some of the church websites, handling some of the church websites, handling some of the more uh more uh more uh more complex uh sort of integrations in more complex uh sort of integrations in more complex uh sort of integrations in that uh realm of things. Um I build some that uh realm of things. Um I build some that uh realm of things. Um I build some proprietary tools. We have some systems proprietary tools. We have some systems proprietary tools. We have some systems at missional marketing that we're pretty at missional marketing that we're pretty at missional marketing that we're pretty proud of that do different things for proud of that do different things for proud of that do different things for churches that I've constructed. Um I churches that I've constructed. Um I churches that I've constructed. Um I developed uh Sermon Spark for anybody developed uh Sermon Spark for anybody developed uh Sermon Spark for anybody who's used uh that app for um some who's used uh that app for um some who's used uh that app for um some sermon preped by AI and a whole bunch of sermon preped by AI and a whole bunch of sermon preped by AI and a whole bunch of other stuff that I'm sure I'm other stuff that I'm sure I'm other stuff that I'm sure I'm forgetting. So spread spread around forgetting. So spread spread around forgetting. So spread spread around nicely. Got my spoon in many uh soup nicely. Got my spoon in many uh soup nicely. Got my spoon in many uh soup bowls here. bowls here. bowls here. That is true. It's a pretty pretty good That is true. It's a pretty pretty good That is true. It's a pretty pretty good way of putting it. Now, um, the reason way of putting it. Now, um, the reason way of putting it. Now, um, the reason that we invited you to be on the show that we invited you to be on the show that we invited you to be on the show today is the last time you were on, uh, today is the last time you were on, uh, today is the last time you were on, uh, we talked specifically about search we talked specifically about search we talked specifically about search engine optimization, SEO, and we did I I engine optimization, SEO, and we did I I engine optimization, SEO, and we did I I would call it a deep dive, but it was would call it a deep dive, but it was would call it a deep dive, but it was really I I I think I titled the episode really I I I think I titled the episode really I I I think I titled the episode SEO 101 for churches because we really SEO 101 for churches because we really SEO 101 for churches because we really just hit some of the nuts and bolts just hit some of the nuts and bolts just hit some of the nuts and bolts about things that churches need to know, about things that churches need to know, about things that churches need to know, the some of the primary X's and O's that the some of the primary X's and O's that the some of the primary X's and O's that churches need to know about SEO. Um, as churches need to know about SEO. Um, as churches need to know about SEO. Um, as Jason Hamrock and I have been meeting Jason Hamrock and I have been meeting Jason Hamrock and I have been meeting with churches, doing road shows with a with churches, doing road shows with a with churches, doing road shows with a church communications group, there's church communications group, there's church communications group, there's been a lot of conversation, a lot of been a lot of conversation, a lot of been a lot of conversation, a lot of questions about SEO and how SEO fits questions about SEO and how SEO fits questions about SEO and how SEO fits into uh AI searches. And so, we wanted into uh AI searches. And so, we wanted into uh AI searches. And so, we wanted to just kind of pick your brain today on to just kind of pick your brain today on to just kind of pick your brain today on some of the things that you're learning, some of the things that you're learning, some of the things that you're learning, some of the things that you're observing some of the things that you're observing some of the things that you're observing as it relates to SEO, GEO as some may

as it relates to SEO, GEO as some may as it relates to SEO, GEO as some may call it, LLM, SEO. We can even explain call it, LLM, SEO. We can even explain call it, LLM, SEO. We can even explain some of these acronyms as we get going. some of these acronyms as we get going. some of these acronyms as we get going. Um, but I'm going to flip things over Um, but I'm going to flip things over Um, but I'm going to flip things over here to Mr. Hamrock and let him just here to Mr. Hamrock and let him just here to Mr. Hamrock and let him just kind of lead off in our questioning of kind of lead off in our questioning of kind of lead off in our questioning of you today, the interview. you today, the interview. you today, the interview. Well, you know, because we get to work a Well, you know, because we get to work a Well, you know, because we get to work a lot of churches and and um that's that's lot of churches and and um that's that's lot of churches and and um that's that's been a big conversation is, been a big conversation is, been a big conversation is, hey, how do we optimize our website so hey, how do we optimize our website so hey, how do we optimize our website so that we might be found in some kind of that we might be found in some kind of that we might be found in some kind of an AI search result? as you know like an AI search result? as you know like an AI search result? as you know like you go to Google, Google's giving you you go to Google, Google's giving you you go to Google, Google's giving you what a Gemini like AI answer. Y what a Gemini like AI answer. Y what a Gemini like AI answer. Y and that's happening more and more in and that's happening more and more in and that's happening more and more in like chat and claude. So what do like chat and claude. So what do like chat and claude. So what do churches need to do or what do we need churches need to do or what do we need churches need to do or what do we need to know that we don't know about how to to know that we don't know about how to to know that we don't know about how to optimize our our web pages? optimize our our web pages? optimize our our web pages? Yeah, for sure. So first let's just kind Yeah, for sure. So first let's just kind Yeah, for sure. So first let's just kind of define the terminology that I'm going of define the terminology that I'm going of define the terminology that I'm going to be using. I'm going to be calling it to be using. I'm going to be calling it to be using. I'm going to be calling it uh GEO for generative engine uh GEO for generative engine uh GEO for generative engine optimization. the the world hasn't optimization. the the world hasn't optimization. the the world hasn't really decided on a term in terms of really decided on a term in terms of really decided on a term in terms of what that realm of things is going to be what that realm of things is going to be what that realm of things is going to be called, but I'm picking that one. And called, but I'm picking that one. And called, but I'm picking that one. And that's what I mean when I'm saying that.

that's what I mean when I'm saying that. that's what I mean when I'm saying that. So, um, and when we say go, what we mean So, um, and when we say go, what we mean So, um, and when we say go, what we mean is having the content that you're is having the content that you're is having the content that you're putting out there being easily findable putting out there being easily findable putting out there being easily findable by a specific type of robots. And in by a specific type of robots. And in by a specific type of robots. And in this case, those are the sort of agentic this case, those are the sort of agentic this case, those are the sort of agentic um searches that are being performed by um searches that are being performed by um searches that are being performed by a tool like chatgpt or claude or um you a tool like chatgpt or claude or um you a tool like chatgpt or claude or um you know, Google uh Gemini at the top of a know, Google uh Gemini at the top of a know, Google uh Gemini at the top of a search result. All those things that are search result. All those things that are search result. All those things that are going off and doing some AI magic behind going off and doing some AI magic behind going off and doing some AI magic behind the scenes and returning potentially the scenes and returning potentially the scenes and returning potentially some information that are sourced from some information that are sourced from some information that are sourced from searches, we're talking about the searches, we're talking about the searches, we're talking about the optimization for those type of searches. optimization for those type of searches. optimization for those type of searches. Um, so Um, so Um, so you're familiar with SEO to some degree, you're familiar with SEO to some degree, you're familiar with SEO to some degree, which is optimizing for Google searches which is optimizing for Google searches which is optimizing for Google searches or Bing searches. GEO really isn't or Bing searches. GEO really isn't or Bing searches. GEO really isn't fundamentally that different because fundamentally that different because fundamentally that different because they're both robots and they're both they're both robots and they're both they're both robots and they're both trying to kind of do the same thing, trying to kind of do the same thing, trying to kind of do the same thing, which is say, what does the user want me which is say, what does the user want me which is say, what does the user want me to find and let's go find it, right? to find and let's go find it, right? to find and let's go find it, right? It's trying to solve the question or I It's trying to solve the question or I It's trying to solve the question or I give the content that's uh best based on give the content that's uh best based on give the content that's uh best based on what the user is asking for. Uh so when what the user is asking for. Uh so when what the user is asking for. Uh so when you look at it through that lens, you look at it through that lens, you look at it through that lens, they're very very similar. But there are they're very very similar. But there are they're very very similar. But there are some nuances in terms of how searches some nuances in terms of how searches some nuances in terms of how searches are performed with just a simple search are performed with just a simple search are performed with just a simple search engine like Google where you type in a engine like Google where you type in a engine like Google where you type in a keyword, you get results. And these keyword, you get results. And these keyword, you get results. And these agentic systems that are going off and agentic systems that are going off and agentic systems that are going off and potentially performing 10 different potentially performing 10 different potentially performing 10 different searches and reading the web content, searches and reading the web content, searches and reading the web content, ingesting it and making decisions based ingesting it and making decisions based ingesting it and making decisions based on what it reads. So, we'll get into on what it reads. So, we'll get into on what it reads. So, we'll get into kind of some more detail about that. But kind of some more detail about that. But kind of some more detail about that. But the biggest thing that I want to sort of the biggest thing that I want to sort of the biggest thing that I want to sort of outline is that user intent

outline is that user intent outline is that user intent becomes a lot more important when you becomes a lot more important when you becomes a lot more important when you get into GEO relative to SEO. And what I get into GEO relative to SEO. And what I get into GEO relative to SEO. And what I find really interesting, and I'm going find really interesting, and I'm going find really interesting, and I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but if you on a bit of a tangent here, but if you on a bit of a tangent here, but if you if you ripped a human being from like if you ripped a human being from like if you ripped a human being from like the the mid 1900s the the mid 1900s the the mid 1900s and you explained what the internet was and you explained what the internet was and you explained what the internet was and you said, "Okay, so one of these is and you said, "Okay, so one of these is and you said, "Okay, so one of these is a robot and one of these is a human and a robot and one of these is a human and a robot and one of these is a human and this is how the robot is searching and this is how the robot is searching and this is how the robot is searching and this is how the human is searching." And this is how the human is searching." And this is how the human is searching." And you asked them to pick which was which. you asked them to pick which was which. you asked them to pick which was which. I'm like 100% confident they'd get it I'm like 100% confident they'd get it I'm like 100% confident they'd get it wrong. And that the like the the agents, wrong. And that the like the the agents, wrong. And that the like the the agents, these AI agents that are performing these AI agents that are performing these AI agents that are performing searches, they kind of do more of what searches, they kind of do more of what searches, they kind of do more of what you would expect a human to do almost you would expect a human to do almost you would expect a human to do almost than humans actually do because we've than humans actually do because we've than humans actually do because we've we've grown so accustomed to Google. we've grown so accustomed to Google. we've grown so accustomed to Google. When we want a search result, we take When we want a search result, we take When we want a search result, we take like the shortest possible path to get like the shortest possible path to get like the shortest possible path to get there. Like church near me, right? If I there. Like church near me, right? If I there. Like church near me, right? If I want a church near me, three keywords, want a church near me, three keywords, want a church near me, three keywords, simple keyword matching, has a local simple keyword matching, has a local simple keyword matching, has a local component, really straightforward. I'm component, really straightforward. I'm component, really straightforward. I'm not going to say like church within one not going to say like church within one not going to say like church within one mile of my neighborhood, whatever my mile of my neighborhood, whatever my mile of my neighborhood, whatever my neighborhood's name is in this city that neighborhood's name is in this city that neighborhood's name is in this city that has this blah blah blah, like a super has this blah blah blah, like a super has this blah blah blah, like a super longtail keyword with lots of longtail keyword with lots of longtail keyword with lots of exposition.

exposition. exposition. But um these these AI agents are going But um these these AI agents are going But um these these AI agents are going to be way more verbose in what they're to be way more verbose in what they're to be way more verbose in what they're searching for and way more specific searching for and way more specific searching for and way more specific because they're going to try to really because they're going to try to really because they're going to try to really understand the intent of the user and understand the intent of the user and understand the intent of the user and then craft a search query that is as then craft a search query that is as then craft a search query that is as sort of thorough as possible to match sort of thorough as possible to match sort of thorough as possible to match that intent. Um, so because of that, that intent. Um, so because of that, that intent. Um, so because of that, can I can I ask a followup question to can I can I ask a followup question to can I can I ask a followup question to that? So, for instance, I I I just I that? So, for instance, I I I just I that? So, for instance, I I I just I don't know why I just discovered this don't know why I just discovered this don't know why I just discovered this the other day because we've we've the other day because we've we've the other day because we've we've noticed in a Google search that we get noticed in a Google search that we get noticed in a Google search that we get sort of the Gemini snippet at the top of sort of the Gemini snippet at the top of sort of the Gemini snippet at the top of a regular search result, but I've just a regular search result, but I've just a regular search result, but I've just noticed recently that in the search noticed recently that in the search noticed recently that in the search results across the top, you know, you've results across the top, you know, you've results across the top, you know, you've always had like all search results and always had like all search results and always had like all search results and then images and news. There's now one then images and news. There's now one then images and news. There's now one that says like AI. And so if you click that says like AI. And so if you click that says like AI. And so if you click on that, it gives you a completely on that, it gives you a completely on that, it gives you a completely different set of of of of search different set of of of of search different set of of of of search results. And so what I think I'm hearing results. And so what I think I'm hearing results. And so what I think I'm hearing you say is that we write in a prompt or you say is that we write in a prompt or you say is that we write in a prompt or we might talk a prompt into our phone we might talk a prompt into our phone we might talk a prompt into our phone into the AI uh LLM, the large language into the AI uh LLM, the large language into the AI uh LLM, the large language model or into Google model or into Google model or into Google and the machine is actually building and the machine is actually building and the machine is actually building more search query or more questions more search query or more questions more search query or more questions behind what I'm actually asking. Is that behind what I'm actually asking. Is that behind what I'm actually asking. Is that what is is that what I'm reading here?

what is is that what I'm reading here? what is is that what I'm reading here? Yeah. So um just to give you an example Yeah. So um just to give you an example Yeah. So um just to give you an example um so if if I went off to certain um so if if I went off to certain um so if if I went off to certain agentic uh search tools that are agentic uh search tools that are agentic uh search tools that are available I mean perplexity is an available I mean perplexity is an available I mean perplexity is an example but there's uh tons out there example but there's uh tons out there example but there's uh tons out there and you know chat GPT has deep research and you know chat GPT has deep research and you know chat GPT has deep research blah blah blah blah there's lots of blah blah blah blah there's lots of blah blah blah blah there's lots of these uh solutions out there and I asked these uh solutions out there and I asked these uh solutions out there and I asked it like find the best church for me I it like find the best church for me I it like find the best church for me I live here you know what church should I live here you know what church should I live here you know what church should I go to this weekend what it's probably go to this weekend what it's probably go to this weekend what it's probably going to do in a lot of these is go off going to do in a lot of these is go off going to do in a lot of these is go off and it's going to start by going to and it's going to start by going to and it's going to start by going to either Google or Bing and performing a either Google or Bing and performing a either Google or Bing and performing a search like best churches in area. And search like best churches in area. And search like best churches in area. And then it's going to look at some of those then it's going to look at some of those then it's going to look at some of those and and and the top local results and evaluate them. the top local results and evaluate them. the top local results and evaluate them. And it's probably going to find a list And it's probably going to find a list And it's probably going to find a list on Yelp that's going to be the 10 best on Yelp that's going to be the 10 best on Yelp that's going to be the 10 best churches in here. And it's going to read churches in here. And it's going to read churches in here. And it's going to read that web page and say, "Okay, which of that web page and say, "Okay, which of that web page and say, "Okay, which of these match with the top search results? these match with the top search results? these match with the top search results? And what else do I know about the user And what else do I know about the user And what else do I know about the user who's asking this? What do they like? who's asking this? What do they like? who's asking this? What do they like? What do they not like? All that sort of What do they not like? All that sort of What do they not like? All that sort of stuff." and try to craft that user stuff." and try to craft that user stuff." and try to craft that user intent into basically what a research intent into basically what a research intent into basically what a research assistant would do if you had a research assistant would do if you had a research assistant would do if you had a research assistant who was you know just there to assistant who was you know just there to assistant who was you know just there to answer any question you had.

answer any question you had. answer any question you had. Okay. So it's not just taking the B like Okay. So it's not just taking the B like Okay. So it's not just taking the B like we're accustomed to Google just kind of we're accustomed to Google just kind of we're accustomed to Google just kind of like like like right it's not just a keyword match. right it's not just a keyword match. right it's not just a keyword match. It's not just like okay this It's not just like okay this It's not just like okay this this page ranks well from this keyword. this page ranks well from this keyword. this page ranks well from this keyword. It's It's It's it uses that right? So, ranking well for it uses that right? So, ranking well for it uses that right? So, ranking well for a keyword that's relevant. And a keyword that's relevant. And a keyword that's relevant. And particularly these longer tail keywords, particularly these longer tail keywords, particularly these longer tail keywords, which I'll get into later is still which I'll get into later is still which I'll get into later is still important because those are the first important because those are the first important because those are the first results the agent who's doing the work results the agent who's doing the work results the agent who's doing the work is going to see, but they're going to is going to see, but they're going to is going to see, but they're going to see a lot more. They're going to ingest see a lot more. They're going to ingest see a lot more. They're going to ingest a lot more. Like I know for me, if I'm a lot more. Like I know for me, if I'm a lot more. Like I know for me, if I'm searching for a church, um I'm never searching for a church, um I'm never searching for a church, um I'm never going to click like the Yelp link, going to click like the Yelp link, going to click like the Yelp link, right? I'm going to look at Google Maps. right? I'm going to look at Google Maps. right? I'm going to look at Google Maps. I'm going to pay attention to the local I'm going to pay attention to the local I'm going to pay attention to the local results. And some people might click the results. And some people might click the results. And some people might click the Yelp link, but the agent that's doing Yelp link, but the agent that's doing Yelp link, but the agent that's doing the deep research, they love things like the deep research, they love things like the deep research, they love things like lists because it's like, oh, here's a, lists because it's like, oh, here's a, lists because it's like, oh, here's a, you know, a third party authoritative you know, a third party authoritative you know, a third party authoritative resource that has done some of this work resource that has done some of this work resource that has done some of this work for me. Let's see what they have to say. for me. Let's see what they have to say. for me. Let's see what they have to say. So, it's almost like they can, these So, it's almost like they can, these So, it's almost like they can, these agents don't have the time and brain agents don't have the time and brain agents don't have the time and brain power limitations that we do. So, they power limitations that we do. So, they power limitations that we do. So, they can ingest and process information a can ingest and process information a can ingest and process information a whole lot faster. So they don't have to whole lot faster. So they don't have to whole lot faster. So they don't have to pick and choose as to what they're pick and choose as to what they're pick and choose as to what they're paying attention to as much and can just paying attention to as much and can just paying attention to as much and can just take a larger sample size of things and take a larger sample size of things and take a larger sample size of things and then craft that all then craft that all then craft that all into okay what best matches my users's into okay what best matches my users's into okay what best matches my users's intent.

intent. intent. You know, I we're always teaching that You know, I we're always teaching that You know, I we're always teaching that content content content is king in this space, right? You if you is king in this space, right? You if you is king in this space, right? You if you don't have content, you you'll never be don't have content, you you'll never be don't have content, you you'll never be found kind of a thing. And churches are found kind of a thing. And churches are found kind of a thing. And churches are constantly creating content every week. constantly creating content every week. constantly creating content every week. There's somebody who gets up on a stage There's somebody who gets up on a stage There's somebody who gets up on a stage and and preaches and they probably say and and preaches and they probably say and and preaches and they probably say 3,000 words or so great content. What 3,000 words or so great content. What 3,000 words or so great content. What with the I with the idea of trying to with the I with the idea of trying to with the I with the idea of trying to learn how AI will work, is there a new learn how AI will work, is there a new learn how AI will work, is there a new strategy that churches need to take when strategy that churches need to take when strategy that churches need to take when it comes to the content? it comes to the content? it comes to the content? Um, in terms of content, probably not at Um, in terms of content, probably not at Um, in terms of content, probably not at a fundamental level. Um, you know, a fundamental level. Um, you know, a fundamental level. Um, you know, content is good, but a lot of the the content is good, but a lot of the the content is good, but a lot of the the types of research that AI is going to be types of research that AI is going to be types of research that AI is going to be doing, um, doing, um, doing, um, is going to be relative to solving a is going to be relative to solving a is going to be relative to solving a problem. So having the content and problem. So having the content and problem. So having the content and having it be well optimized, that just having it be well optimized, that just having it be well optimized, that just kind of goes back to fundamental SEO. So kind of goes back to fundamental SEO. So kind of goes back to fundamental SEO. So like if you have a sermon about troubles like if you have a sermon about troubles like if you have a sermon about troubles in marriage and somebody is searching in marriage and somebody is searching in marriage and somebody is searching for a solution to that problem, for a solution to that problem, for a solution to that problem, particularly in that area, maybe with particularly in that area, maybe with particularly in that area, maybe with even some more finer details that match even some more finer details that match even some more finer details that match the sermon's content, you know, having a the sermon's content, you know, having a the sermon's content, you know, having a transcription of that sermon on on the transcription of that sermon on on the transcription of that sermon on on the site that the AI can ingest is obviously site that the AI can ingest is obviously site that the AI can ingest is obviously great, right? Because it provides that great, right? Because it provides that great, right? Because it provides that more additional context. Um, but getting more additional context. Um, but getting more additional context. Um, but getting back to your initial question about like back to your initial question about like back to your initial question about like how do you optimize a website in how do you optimize a website in how do you optimize a website in general? Uh, one of the big things you general? Uh, one of the big things you general? Uh, one of the big things you can do that you kind of didn't really can do that you kind of didn't really can do that you kind of didn't really have to before is go deeper in have to before is go deeper in have to before is go deeper in structured data, which is something that structured data, which is something that structured data, which is something that probably a lot of people listening to probably a lot of people listening to probably a lot of people listening to this aren't going to have heard before.

this aren't going to have heard before. this aren't going to have heard before. Structured data is just code on your Structured data is just code on your Structured data is just code on your website that spells out essentially website that spells out essentially website that spells out essentially whatever you want in a hidden way that whatever you want in a hidden way that whatever you want in a hidden way that is very very clear to robots. It's like is very very clear to robots. It's like is very very clear to robots. It's like so the robot doesn't really have to look so the robot doesn't really have to look so the robot doesn't really have to look for these things on your website. Like for these things on your website. Like for these things on your website. Like an easy example that we that everybody an easy example that we that everybody an easy example that we that everybody should be doing at this point and a lot should be doing at this point and a lot should be doing at this point and a lot of uh church websites probably are even of uh church websites probably are even of uh church websites probably are even if they don't know it just based on if they don't know it just based on if they don't know it just based on their platform would be like having your their platform would be like having your their platform would be like having your nap your name, address, phone number nap your name, address, phone number nap your name, address, phone number information in structured data. So a information in structured data. So a information in structured data. So a robot can just say, "Okay, this is what robot can just say, "Okay, this is what robot can just say, "Okay, this is what it is. It's clear. I don't have to go it is. It's clear. I don't have to go it is. It's clear. I don't have to go looking in the footer and try to figure looking in the footer and try to figure looking in the footer and try to figure out what it is. They've told me what it out what it is. They've told me what it out what it is. They've told me what it is. I know what it is. You know, it's is. I know what it is. You know, it's is. I know what it is. You know, it's done." So that was that's a big deal for done." So that was that's a big deal for done." So that was that's a big deal for local SEO. We've talked about it's local SEO. We've talked about it's local SEO. We've talked about it's something that's part of our local SEO something that's part of our local SEO something that's part of our local SEO service. It was kind of a fundamental service. It was kind of a fundamental service. It was kind of a fundamental thing. But before you could kind of stop thing. But before you could kind of stop thing. But before you could kind of stop there because there because there because uh Google would look at schema for uh Google would look at schema for uh Google would look at schema for things like local search results, which things like local search results, which things like local search results, which was great. But in terms of like your was great. But in terms of like your was great. But in terms of like your church's church's church's ministry services, like things you ministry services, like things you ministry services, like things you offer, if you had schema about that, offer, if you had schema about that, offer, if you had schema about that, nobody was really looking for it. Like nobody was really looking for it. Like nobody was really looking for it. Like they weren't looking deeper at that they weren't looking deeper at that they weren't looking deeper at that context. But now AI agents will be and context. But now AI agents will be and context. But now AI agents will be and it'll be clear to them. So with what it'll be clear to them. So with what it'll be clear to them. So with what your church is doing, if you can make your church is doing, if you can make your church is doing, if you can make that as clear as possible through schema that as clear as possible through schema that as clear as possible through schema to AI and whatever robot is uh crawling to AI and whatever robot is uh crawling to AI and whatever robot is uh crawling your church website, that's going to your church website, that's going to your church website, that's going to make it confident to say, okay, when make it confident to say, okay, when make it confident to say, okay, when someone's asking where should I get someone's asking where should I get someone's asking where should I get married, I'm planning a wedding uh you married, I'm planning a wedding uh you married, I'm planning a wedding uh you know uh 9 months from now, where should know uh 9 months from now, where should know uh 9 months from now, where should I uh where should my venue be? All of a I uh where should my venue be? All of a I uh where should my venue be? All of a sudden, LEA, I can be like, okay, this

sudden, LEA, I can be like, okay, this sudden, LEA, I can be like, okay, this is clear. This is a service and is clear. This is a service and is clear. This is a service and structured data. I know this church structured data. I know this church structured data. I know this church offers uh weddings under, you know, offers uh weddings under, you know, offers uh weddings under, you know, these circumstances. these circumstances. these circumstances. Maybe I'll recommend that as a potential Maybe I'll recommend that as a potential Maybe I'll recommend that as a potential option. Or, you know, there's depending option. Or, you know, there's depending option. Or, you know, there's depending on what a church is doing, there's so on what a church is doing, there's so on what a church is doing, there's so many different things that you could many different things that you could many different things that you could include in there that then could become include in there that then could become include in there that then could become relevant in solving a problem through a relevant in solving a problem through a relevant in solving a problem through a you know, a generative search somewhere. you know, a generative search somewhere. you know, a generative search somewhere. Is that is that schema code is it always Is that is that schema code is it always Is that is that schema code is it always local oriented or if so if I so for local oriented or if so if I so for local oriented or if so if I so for instance because I know like Claude will instance because I know like Claude will instance because I know like Claude will now write code for me. So I can write a now write code for me. So I can write a now write code for me. So I can write a blog post. I can use Claude to you know blog post. I can use Claude to you know blog post. I can use Claude to you know write a blog post from a sermon or edit write a blog post from a sermon or edit write a blog post from a sermon or edit a blog post that I've written. I can a blog post that I've written. I can a blog post that I've written. I can then have Claude actually write the then have Claude actually write the then have Claude actually write the schema to go on that page for that blog schema to go on that page for that blog schema to go on that page for that blog post. And what you're saying is I might post. And what you're saying is I might post. And what you're saying is I might have great content and it might be well have great content and it might be well have great content and it might be well optimized on the page, but the robots or optimized on the page, but the robots or optimized on the page, but the robots or the agents that are doing these deep the agents that are doing these deep the agents that are doing these deep level searches are actually looking at level searches are actually looking at level searches are actually looking at the schema code on the website, which is the schema code on the website, which is the schema code on the website, which is not visible to the human who's browsing not visible to the human who's browsing not visible to the human who's browsing the website more so than maybe the the website more so than maybe the the website more so than maybe the content that's on the pages. Is that content that's on the pages. Is that content that's on the pages. Is that what I'm getting? and they're looking at what I'm getting? and they're looking at what I'm getting? and they're looking at both, but it's it's more an issue of both, but it's it's more an issue of both, but it's it's more an issue of um it might not be crystal clear certain um it might not be crystal clear certain um it might not be crystal clear certain important things the church does or important things the church does or important things the church does or offers just from browsing their website.

offers just from browsing their website. offers just from browsing their website. Whereas, if you can put that in a schema Whereas, if you can put that in a schema Whereas, if you can put that in a schema sense, it's almost like there's certain sense, it's almost like there's certain sense, it's almost like there's certain things you just wouldn't want to have on things you just wouldn't want to have on things you just wouldn't want to have on the website because it would be dry and the website because it would be dry and the website because it would be dry and straightforward and like we offer this straightforward and like we offer this straightforward and like we offer this thing at this, you know, right? Like at thing at this, you know, right? Like at thing at this, you know, right? Like at this place at this time and like big this place at this time and like big this place at this time and like big bold text like nobody does that. It's bold text like nobody does that. It's bold text like nobody does that. It's it's not a good user experience for it's not a good user experience for it's not a good user experience for people, but for a robot, that's an ideal people, but for a robot, that's an ideal people, but for a robot, that's an ideal user experience because then it's like, user experience because then it's like, user experience because then it's like, oh, this is what they do and this is all oh, this is what they do and this is all oh, this is what they do and this is all the information I need to know about it. the information I need to know about it. the information I need to know about it. So, you can hide that behind the scenes So, you can hide that behind the scenes So, you can hide that behind the scenes to just make it easier for, you know, to just make it easier for, you know, to just make it easier for, you know, any um sort of robot to be confident any um sort of robot to be confident any um sort of robot to be confident that that is the correct answer to the that that is the correct answer to the that that is the correct answer to the question that it's essentially asking of question that it's essentially asking of question that it's essentially asking of the website. the website. the website. Okay. Can I can I double click on that Okay. Can I can I double click on that Okay. Can I can I double click on that for a second? So, one of the challenges for a second? So, one of the challenges for a second? So, one of the challenges that we see regularly on websites is that we see regularly on websites is that we see regularly on websites is churches not using their H1 and their H2 churches not using their H1 and their H2 churches not using their H1 and their H2 headings properly. primarily because headings properly. primarily because headings properly. primarily because they see H1 and H2 as font size, not they see H1 and H2 as font size, not they see H1 and H2 as font size, not necessarily as SEO necessarily as SEO necessarily as SEO uh valuable content. uh valuable content. uh valuable content. Sure. Sure. Sure. Can we offset our deficiencies with our Can we offset our deficiencies with our Can we offset our deficiencies with our H1 and H2 with what we have in the H1 and H2 with what we have in the H1 and H2 with what we have in the schema? Would that does that help?

schema? Would that does that help? schema? Would that does that help? Yeah, you absolutely could. I mean, that Yeah, you absolutely could. I mean, that Yeah, you absolutely could. I mean, that would provide sort of replacement would provide sort of replacement would provide sort of replacement context. Uh you still end up then doing context. Uh you still end up then doing context. Uh you still end up then doing some things. So the purpose of H1 H2 some things. So the purpose of H1 H2 some things. So the purpose of H1 H2 also uh is huge for people with also uh is huge for people with also uh is huge for people with disabilities in terms of if you're using disabilities in terms of if you're using disabilities in terms of if you're using a screen reader that really provides a screen reader that really provides a screen reader that really provides content context excuse me into like how content context excuse me into like how content context excuse me into like how you're supposed to read the document and you're supposed to read the document and you're supposed to read the document and how a screen reader is going to behave how a screen reader is going to behave how a screen reader is going to behave if you want to like say go to the next if you want to like say go to the next if you want to like say go to the next section. So for people who have section. So for people who have section. So for people who have disabilities uh schema is not going to disabilities uh schema is not going to disabilities uh schema is not going to save them in that respect. So, H1's, H2s save them in that respect. So, H1's, H2s save them in that respect. So, H1's, H2s have a lot of important I just um yeah, have a lot of important I just um yeah, have a lot of important I just um yeah, HTML structure in general using HTML structure in general using HTML structure in general using descriptive HTML is really important for descriptive HTML is really important for descriptive HTML is really important for a lot of good reasons. But yeah, to get a lot of good reasons. But yeah, to get a lot of good reasons. But yeah, to get back to your original question, schema back to your original question, schema back to your original question, schema could cover that uh deficiency from an could cover that uh deficiency from an could cover that uh deficiency from an SEO or a GEO standpoint. Absolutely. SEO or a GEO standpoint. Absolutely. SEO or a GEO standpoint. Absolutely. Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Well, what are Yeah, this is f is Yeah. Well, what are Yeah, this is f is Yeah. Well, what are Yeah, this is f is so fascinating. I'm sure everybody so fascinating. I'm sure everybody so fascinating. I'm sure everybody listening going they got a they got a listening going they got a they got a listening going they got a they got a question they wish they could ask right question they wish they could ask right question they wish they could ask right now. So I I I mean what kind of strategy now. So I I I mean what kind of strategy now. So I I I mean what kind of strategy should we do moving forward?

should we do moving forward? should we do moving forward? Yeah. So, one thing that Yeah. So, one thing that Yeah. So, one thing that is kind of interesting that has um come is kind of interesting that has um come is kind of interesting that has um come out of this is Bing, Microsoft's uh out of this is Bing, Microsoft's uh out of this is Bing, Microsoft's uh search engine, is essentially gaining search engine, is essentially gaining search engine, is essentially gaining market share because Microsoft owns a market share because Microsoft owns a market share because Microsoft owns a lot of the sort of generative engines lot of the sort of generative engines lot of the sort of generative engines that are performing searches and then that are performing searches and then that are performing searches and then says, well, I'm obviously going to use says, well, I'm obviously going to use says, well, I'm obviously going to use my own search engine because I own it, my own search engine because I own it, my own search engine because I own it, so I'm going to promote my own thing. so I'm going to promote my own thing. so I'm going to promote my own thing. So, in some ways, this has been a way So, in some ways, this has been a way So, in some ways, this has been a way for Microsoft to gain ground or regain for Microsoft to gain ground or regain for Microsoft to gain ground or regain some ground on Google, which was some ground on Google, which was some ground on Google, which was obviously dominating the, obviously dominating the, obviously dominating the, you know, the the human-based you know, the the human-based you know, the the human-based uh search marketplace. So, in terms of uh search marketplace. So, in terms of uh search marketplace. So, in terms of strategy shifts to an extent, making strategy shifts to an extent, making strategy shifts to an extent, making sure your presence on Bing is well sure your presence on Bing is well sure your presence on Bing is well optimized, including Bing Places, which optimized, including Bing Places, which optimized, including Bing Places, which is like the the equivalent of uh your is like the the equivalent of uh your is like the the equivalent of uh your Google business profile. Um, Google business profile. Um, Google business profile. Um, yeah, that's kind of a change that we're yeah, that's kind of a change that we're yeah, that's kind of a change that we're seeing. So, Microsoft has kind of been seeing. So, Microsoft has kind of been seeing. So, Microsoft has kind of been able to game the system a little bit to able to game the system a little bit to able to game the system a little bit to gain ground there. U, it seems a little gain ground there. U, it seems a little gain ground there. U, it seems a little bit unfair, but that's just that's the bit unfair, but that's just that's the bit unfair, but that's just that's the reality of big tech. Um, reality of big tech. Um, reality of big tech. Um, is anybody really going to be mad if is anybody really going to be mad if is anybody really going to be mad if somebody's doing something unfair to somebody's doing something unfair to somebody's doing something unfair to Google? Like really?

Google? Like really? Google? Like really? Well, Microsoft was the was the big boy Well, Microsoft was the was the big boy Well, Microsoft was the was the big boy before Google. So, I guess I mean I'm a before Google. So, I guess I mean I'm a before Google. So, I guess I mean I'm a Microsoft fanboy, so I like when good Microsoft fanboy, so I like when good Microsoft fanboy, so I like when good things happen to Microsoft. But in the things happen to Microsoft. But in the things happen to Microsoft. But in the objective sense, to me, Microsoft is objective sense, to me, Microsoft is objective sense, to me, Microsoft is more the big bad, you know, kind of more the big bad, you know, kind of more the big bad, you know, kind of tyrant than Google. Although that, yeah, tyrant than Google. Although that, yeah, tyrant than Google. Although that, yeah, that might not be the case these days. that might not be the case these days. that might not be the case these days. But anyway, they're both they're both But anyway, they're both they're both But anyway, they're both they're both big uh big evil corporations who uh who big uh big evil corporations who uh who big uh big evil corporations who uh who look out for themselves. But yeah, look out for themselves. But yeah, look out for themselves. But yeah, bottom line, Microsoft is now more bottom line, Microsoft is now more bottom line, Microsoft is now more relevant in optimization than it has relevant in optimization than it has relevant in optimization than it has been in, you know, the last 10 or 15 been in, you know, the last 10 or 15 been in, you know, the last 10 or 15 years. So, years. So, years. So, um there's some shifts that need to um there's some shifts that need to um there's some shifts that need to happen there. Uh, but I think maybe the happen there. Uh, but I think maybe the happen there. Uh, but I think maybe the biggest takeaway biggest takeaway biggest takeaway that um that I'd like to get across to that um that I'd like to get across to that um that I'd like to get across to people is that GEO and SEO aren't so people is that GEO and SEO aren't so people is that GEO and SEO aren't so fundamentally different. It's not like fundamentally different. It's not like fundamentally different. It's not like you're doing two completely separate you're doing two completely separate you're doing two completely separate activities. There are nuances and there activities. There are nuances and there activities. There are nuances and there are things that are more specific to one are things that are more specific to one are things that are more specific to one than the other. But if your overall than the other. But if your overall than the other. But if your overall fundamental SEO is very strong, at fundamental SEO is very strong, at fundamental SEO is very strong, at minimum, your GEO is going to be decent. minimum, your GEO is going to be decent. minimum, your GEO is going to be decent. Okay? So um so it's not something we Okay? So um so it's not something we Okay? So um so it's not something we have to be like okay we have awesome SEO have to be like okay we have awesome SEO have to be like okay we have awesome SEO but our GEO is starting at zero. It's but our GEO is starting at zero. It's but our GEO is starting at zero. It's not you're I mean just the findability not you're I mean just the findability not you're I mean just the findability of of your content if if your SEO is of of your content if if your SEO is of of your content if if your SEO is really strong is going to be reasonably really strong is going to be reasonably really strong is going to be reasonably good in generative engines and there's good in generative engines and there's good in generative engines and there's things you can do to help improve that things you can do to help improve that things you can do to help improve that further but it's not like you're further but it's not like you're further but it's not like you're starting from scratch and it's not like starting from scratch and it's not like starting from scratch and it's not like the two things exist in a vacuum.

the two things exist in a vacuum. the two things exist in a vacuum. Okay. Okay. Okay. Go ahead Jason. Well, yeah. Go ahead Jason. Well, yeah. Go ahead Jason. Well, yeah. I'll cross my fingers and I'll remember I'll cross my fingers and I'll remember I'll cross my fingers and I'll remember my question in a minute. my question in a minute. my question in a minute. Jay, you you read a lot. You you're Jay, you you read a lot. You you're Jay, you you read a lot. You you're extremely knowledgeable. He Jason extremely knowledgeable. He Jason extremely knowledgeable. He Jason Collier is our go-to guy. Whenever we Collier is our go-to guy. Whenever we Collier is our go-to guy. Whenever we have any kind of a technical problem, he have any kind of a technical problem, he have any kind of a technical problem, he has an answer for us. has an answer for us. has an answer for us. Where do you think this is all headed in Where do you think this is all headed in Where do you think this is all headed in terms of is it going to stay consistent terms of is it going to stay consistent terms of is it going to stay consistent with like the way we do GEO versus SEO with like the way we do GEO versus SEO with like the way we do GEO versus SEO or do you see AI just advancing so far or do you see AI just advancing so far or do you see AI just advancing so far it's just going to be a you know a it's just going to be a you know a it's just going to be a you know a different thing a year from now or different thing a year from now or different thing a year from now or do you so I I've kind of said this do you so I I've kind of said this do you so I I've kind of said this before I think maybe on an episode which before I think maybe on an episode which before I think maybe on an episode which is in like the very very long term in is in like the very very long term in is in like the very very long term in like the ideal world scenario like the ideal world scenario like the ideal world scenario the EOS the SEOs, the GEOs, they don't the EOS the SEOs, the GEOs, they don't the EOS the SEOs, the GEOs, they don't really exist. And the reason is the only really exist. And the reason is the only really exist. And the reason is the only reason they exist is because the the reason they exist is because the the reason they exist is because the the robots that are doing all this work robots that are doing all this work robots that are doing all this work aren't perfect and need help. So, as aren't perfect and need help. So, as aren't perfect and need help. So, as they get stronger, you actually have to they get stronger, you actually have to they get stronger, you actually have to do less. So, over time, things are going do less. So, over time, things are going do less. So, over time, things are going to get better and there is going to be to get better and there is going to be to get better and there is going to be less to do, but that's going to take a less to do, but that's going to take a less to do, but that's going to take a long time. So, are things going to long time. So, are things going to long time. So, are things going to fundamentally change over the next year fundamentally change over the next year fundamentally change over the next year or two? probably in some nuances and or two? probably in some nuances and or two? probably in some nuances and specific situations, but largely specific situations, but largely specific situations, but largely speaking, it's going to be the same kind speaking, it's going to be the same kind speaking, it's going to be the same kind of foundation you're building on, which of foundation you're building on, which of foundation you're building on, which is the same foundation for SEO that's is the same foundation for SEO that's is the same foundation for SEO that's been in place for a long time. And there been in place for a long time. And there been in place for a long time. And there there are going to continue to be there are going to continue to be there are going to continue to be nuances, particularly with respect, I nuances, particularly with respect, I nuances, particularly with respect, I think, to like think, to like think, to like trying to figure out authenticity of

trying to figure out authenticity of trying to figure out authenticity of content, which is going to become a real content, which is going to become a real content, which is going to become a real problem. And that's probably more in problem. And that's probably more in problem. And that's probably more in terms of media, but like just is this terms of media, but like just is this terms of media, but like just is this real? Is it fake? Is it is it actually real? Is it fake? Is it is it actually real? Is it fake? Is it is it actually is the source of this reputable? All is the source of this reputable? All is the source of this reputable? All that sort of stuff is going to come that sort of stuff is going to come that sort of stuff is going to come really heavily into question. Um and really heavily into question. Um and really heavily into question. Um and that's probably outside like a church that's probably outside like a church that's probably outside like a church website scope. It would be more like the website scope. It would be more like the website scope. It would be more like the social media and um things of that social media and um things of that social media and um things of that nature. But yeah, there's going to be nature. But yeah, there's going to be nature. But yeah, there's going to be some big problems that need to be some big problems that need to be some big problems that need to be solved. But I think the answer to your solved. But I think the answer to your solved. But I think the answer to your question is question is question is uh it's going to uh it's going to uh it's going to the foundation of SEO and GEO is going the foundation of SEO and GEO is going the foundation of SEO and GEO is going to stay the same and there will be to stay the same and there will be to stay the same and there will be nuances here and there but ultimately nuances here and there but ultimately nuances here and there but ultimately you're trying to help robots find the you're trying to help robots find the you're trying to help robots find the right stuff they're looking for. right stuff they're looking for. right stuff they're looking for. Let me let me speak to what I think is Let me let me speak to what I think is Let me let me speak to what I think is really going to change even if the really going to change even if the really going to change even if the technical aspects of things don't what's technical aspects of things don't what's technical aspects of things don't what's changing is the way that people are changing is the way that people are changing is the way that people are interacting and engaging with the interacting and engaging with the interacting and engaging with the technology. Yes. Yes. So going back to technology. Yes. Yes. So going back to technology. Yes. Yes. So going back to the point that you were talking about at the point that you were talking about at the point that you were talking about at the very beginning which was like we as the very beginning which was like we as the very beginning which was like we as we work on local SEO with churches we we work on local SEO with churches we we work on local SEO with churches we focus on the keyword phrase church near focus on the keyword phrase church near focus on the keyword phrase church near me or churches near me. You use the me or churches near me. You use the me or churches near me. You use the example of somebody asking the question, example of somebody asking the question, example of somebody asking the question, which church should I go to this which church should I go to this which church should I go to this weekend? Which is a fundamentally weekend? Which is a fundamentally weekend? Which is a fundamentally different question. But I think that different question. But I think that different question. But I think that what we're going to see is people rather what we're going to see is people rather what we're going to see is people rather than googling things like marriage help than googling things like marriage help than googling things like marriage help near me or parenting help near me, near me or parenting help near me, near me or parenting help near me, they're going to start asking more they're going to start asking more they're going to start asking more questions about how to solve the problem questions about how to solve the problem questions about how to solve the problem and they're going to be dependent on the and they're going to be dependent on the and they're going to be dependent on the information provided by the LLMs or the

information provided by the LLMs or the information provided by the LLMs or the agents that they're using and the agents that they're using and the agents that they're using and the results that they get. And so I think as results that they get. And so I think as results that they get. And so I think as content creators we have the ability content creators we have the ability content creators we have the ability whether it's gospel- ccentric content or whether it's gospel- ccentric content or whether it's gospel- ccentric content or just simply helpful felt needs content just simply helpful felt needs content just simply helpful felt needs content to be providing good authoritative to be providing good authoritative to be providing good authoritative reputable content to help people whether reputable content to help people whether reputable content to help people whether it's localized or not localized. Some of it's localized or not localized. Some of it's localized or not localized. Some of the things that I've read recently Jason the things that I've read recently Jason the things that I've read recently Jason talk about how the way we write our talk about how the way we write our talk about how the way we write our content has to shift in some ways. so content has to shift in some ways. so content has to shift in some ways. so that it is more I guess more concisely that it is more I guess more concisely that it is more I guess more concisely helpful. I guess that's the best way for helpful. I guess that's the best way for helpful. I guess that's the best way for me to explain it rather you know we me to explain it rather you know we me to explain it rather you know we write a 1500word blog post or a 3500word write a 1500word blog post or a 3500word write a 1500word blog post or a 3500word blog post that gets to the the long way blog post that gets to the the long way blog post that gets to the the long way about solving the problem or answering about solving the problem or answering about solving the problem or answering the question and perhaps maybe some of the question and perhaps maybe some of the question and perhaps maybe some of the ways that we write content need to the ways that we write content need to the ways that we write content need to have shorter simpler ways to answer the have shorter simpler ways to answer the have shorter simpler ways to answer the question or solve the problem. And then question or solve the problem. And then question or solve the problem. And then also the way that we're using longtail also the way that we're using longtail also the way that we're using longtail keywords, which is a phrase you used a keywords, which is a phrase you used a keywords, which is a phrase you used a few minutes ago, and I'd like for you to few minutes ago, and I'd like for you to few minutes ago, and I'd like for you to expound on that. So, I do want to get expound on that. So, I do want to get expound on that. So, I do want to get back to that.

back to that. back to that. Yeah. Can you comment on the things that Yeah. Can you comment on the things that Yeah. Can you comment on the things that I'm I'm, I'm I'm, I'm I'm, you know, I'm I'm thinking about here, you know, I'm I'm thinking about here, you know, I'm I'm thinking about here, I'm talking about in terms of the way I'm talking about in terms of the way I'm talking about in terms of the way that content is written and the way that that content is written and the way that that content is written and the way that people are engaging with the agents. Um, people are engaging with the agents. Um, people are engaging with the agents. Um, and then talk about longtail keywords a and then talk about longtail keywords a and then talk about longtail keywords a little bit and how that might play into little bit and how that might play into little bit and how that might play into it. it. it. Right. And those two things are tied uh Right. And those two things are tied uh Right. And those two things are tied uh deeply together because the way people deeply together because the way people deeply together because the way people would engage with a you know an LLM would engage with a you know an LLM would engage with a you know an LLM agent now to perform a search they'd you agent now to perform a search they'd you agent now to perform a search they'd you know ask what the problem was and then know ask what the problem was and then know ask what the problem was and then the agent would go and perform various the agent would go and perform various the agent would go and perform various number of searches instead of the user number of searches instead of the user number of searches instead of the user like a middleman between the user and like a middleman between the user and like a middleman between the user and the search engine like a research the search engine like a research the search engine like a research assistant. And so, um, what the agent's assistant. And so, um, what the agent's assistant. And so, um, what the agent's going to do is often use longer tail going to do is often use longer tail going to do is often use longer tail keywords than a human would for whatever keywords than a human would for whatever keywords than a human would for whatever reason because I guess agents think that reason because I guess agents think that reason because I guess agents think that we talk too much or that's just how we talk too much or that's just how we talk too much or that's just how humans behave. But it's going to be more humans behave. But it's going to be more humans behave. But it's going to be more verbose than a human typically would. verbose than a human typically would. verbose than a human typically would. And when we say longtail keywords, we And when we say longtail keywords, we And when we say longtail keywords, we just mean longer keywords. Like instead just mean longer keywords. Like instead just mean longer keywords. Like instead of church near me, a longtail keyword of church near me, a longtail keyword of church near me, a longtail keyword and that would be like church in and that would be like church in and that would be like church in Calgary, Alberta, Canada that has more Calgary, Alberta, Canada that has more Calgary, Alberta, Canada that has more than 500 blah blah blah blah blah blah than 500 blah blah blah blah blah blah than 500 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah whole bunch of other descriptive blah whole bunch of other descriptive blah whole bunch of other descriptive words in there, right? So, uh, when words in there, right? So, uh, when words in there, right? So, uh, when you're optimizing for longer tail you're optimizing for longer tail you're optimizing for longer tail keywords, they're much more specific, keywords, they're much more specific, keywords, they're much more specific, but they also are, you know, way more, but they also are, you know, way more, but they also are, you know, way more, um, precise um, precise um, precise in terms of targeting a problem. So in terms of targeting a problem. So in terms of targeting a problem. So because these agents are going to be because these agents are going to be because these agents are going to be performing more searches and more performing more searches and more performing more searches and more longtail keywords, a higher volume of longtail keywords, a higher volume of longtail keywords, a higher volume of searches for a higher variety and longer searches for a higher variety and longer searches for a higher variety and longer tail keywords, having um content for tail keywords, having um content for tail keywords, having um content for those types of keywords just becomes

those types of keywords just becomes those types of keywords just becomes more important. And that's kind of the more important. And that's kind of the more important. And that's kind of the GEO versus SEO difference. Before that GEO versus SEO difference. Before that GEO versus SEO difference. Before that wasn't as important because people wasn't as important because people wasn't as important because people weren't taking the time to write out the weren't taking the time to write out the weren't taking the time to write out the 10-word keyword. Now, the LLMs are going 10-word keyword. Now, the LLMs are going 10-word keyword. Now, the LLMs are going to be so having a pretty close match to to be so having a pretty close match to to be so having a pretty close match to that keyword in a blog or in some sort that keyword in a blog or in some sort that keyword in a blog or in some sort of content is going to put you ahead. Um of content is going to put you ahead. Um of content is going to put you ahead. Um so that that that's kind of the so that that that's kind of the so that that that's kind of the the advantage you can gain in content um the advantage you can gain in content um the advantage you can gain in content um preparation is you can go deeper and you preparation is you can go deeper and you preparation is you can go deeper and you can hit on those longtails but at the can hit on those longtails but at the can hit on those longtails but at the same time as you were saying the same time as you were saying the same time as you were saying the conciseness if you want to be returned conciseness if you want to be returned conciseness if you want to be returned in like a Google snippet at the top you in like a Google snippet at the top you in like a Google snippet at the top you kind of do want to have that concise kind of do want to have that concise kind of do want to have that concise solution to the problem right that that solution to the problem right that that solution to the problem right that that Google can kind of spit out and Google can kind of spit out and Google can kind of spit out and reference in like two three four reference in like two three four reference in like two three four sentences hacks. Um, so there's a battle sentences hacks. Um, so there's a battle sentences hacks. Um, so there's a battle there and that you want to match as many there and that you want to match as many there and that you want to match as many longtail keywords as possible, but you longtail keywords as possible, but you longtail keywords as possible, but you also want to solve the problem in a also want to solve the problem in a also want to solve the problem in a concise way that is sort of quotable, I concise way that is sort of quotable, I concise way that is sort of quotable, I guess, would be the best way to say it, guess, would be the best way to say it, guess, would be the best way to say it, by an AI agent.

by an AI agent. by an AI agent. So would that I'm I have no idea if this So would that I'm I have no idea if this So would that I'm I have no idea if this is the way this works, but so for is the way this works, but so for is the way this works, but so for instance, I write a 1500word blog post. instance, I write a 1500word blog post. instance, I write a 1500word blog post. I've used longtail keywords periodically I've used longtail keywords periodically I've used longtail keywords periodically through my article that asks a question through my article that asks a question through my article that asks a question at the beginning of each section that at the beginning of each section that at the beginning of each section that that section answers. But perhaps I can that section answers. But perhaps I can that section answers. But perhaps I can then write a short summary that's like then write a short summary that's like then write a short summary that's like maybe three to five sentences that sort maybe three to five sentences that sort maybe three to five sentences that sort of synthesizes the solution to the of synthesizes the solution to the of synthesizes the solution to the overarching problem that can be overarching problem that can be overarching problem that can be somewhere obviously in my blog post or somewhere obviously in my blog post or somewhere obviously in my blog post or in my article. Should that also be in my in my article. Should that also be in my in my article. Should that also be in my schema? schema? schema? Yeah. And so there is also some schema Yeah. And so there is also some schema Yeah. And so there is also some schema with respect to um some commonly with respect to um some commonly with respect to um some commonly uh sort of used pieces of content on uh sort of used pieces of content on uh sort of used pieces of content on church websites like things like an FAQ. church websites like things like an FAQ. church websites like things like an FAQ. So you can wrap structured data around So you can wrap structured data around So you can wrap structured data around an FAQ that then can make um those those an FAQ that then can make um those those an FAQ that then can make um those those answers to questions easily snipped by answers to questions easily snipped by answers to questions easily snipped by things like LLMs to be okay. this is the things like LLMs to be okay. this is the things like LLMs to be okay. this is the definitive answer to this question definitive answer to this question definitive answer to this question because the question was literally because the question was literally because the question was literally placed on the website and the answer's placed on the website and the answer's placed on the website and the answer's right here, right? It just it makes it right here, right? It just it makes it right here, right? It just it makes it very very clear. So if you have some of very very clear. So if you have some of very very clear. So if you have some of those other structures in place, you can those other structures in place, you can those other structures in place, you can kind of um you know grease the gears a kind of um you know grease the gears a kind of um you know grease the gears a little bit in terms of but providing little bit in terms of but providing little bit in terms of but providing authoritative answers to very specific authoritative answers to very specific authoritative answers to very specific questions. But yeah, to get back to your questions. But yeah, to get back to your questions. But yeah, to get back to your original question, schema and blogs can original question, schema and blogs can original question, schema and blogs can uh can outline exactly what kind of uh can outline exactly what kind of uh can outline exactly what kind of keywords you're targeting and just

keywords you're targeting and just keywords you're targeting and just really provide additional context into really provide additional context into really provide additional context into what the what the intent of the blog is, what the what the intent of the blog is, what the what the intent of the blog is, like what problems are you trying to like what problems are you trying to like what problems are you trying to solve. solve. solve. I'm going to Jason, one more one more I'm going to Jason, one more one more I'm going to Jason, one more one more follow up on that and then I'll I'll follow up on that and then I'll I'll follow up on that and then I'll I'll hand things over to you. I I think one hand things over to you. I I think one hand things over to you. I I think one of the things that is a is a recurring of the things that is a is a recurring of the things that is a is a recurring challenge for me when I'm coaching challenge for me when I'm coaching challenge for me when I'm coaching churches on their SEO is churches tend churches on their SEO is churches tend churches on their SEO is churches tend to think of their website as one large to think of their website as one large to think of their website as one large container of content rather than unique container of content rather than unique container of content rather than unique individual pages that all need to be individual pages that all need to be individual pages that all need to be optimized. Can you speak a little bit to optimized. Can you speak a little bit to optimized. Can you speak a little bit to the the difference between optimizing the the difference between optimizing the the difference between optimizing like a website versus optimizing a page like a website versus optimizing a page like a website versus optimizing a page on a website? Is there a on a website? Is there a on a website? Is there a differentiation? Like how much if I've differentiation? Like how much if I've differentiation? Like how much if I've got, you know, 20 different ministries got, you know, 20 different ministries got, you know, 20 different ministries in my church, do I need to optimize in my church, do I need to optimize in my church, do I need to optimize every single page uniquely? Is that my every single page uniquely? Is that my every single page uniquely? Is that my goal? Is that my objective? Is that goal? Is that my objective? Is that goal? Is that my objective? Is that what's most helpful? Can you speak to what's most helpful? Can you speak to what's most helpful? Can you speak to that just a little bit? that just a little bit? that just a little bit? Yeah. Um, so the answer is you don't Yeah. Um, so the answer is you don't Yeah. Um, so the answer is you don't have to optimize every page, but you do have to optimize every page, but you do have to optimize every page, but you do have to optimize every page that has have to optimize every page that has have to optimize every page that has enough quality or relevant content that enough quality or relevant content that enough quality or relevant content that you deem it being worthy of ranking in you deem it being worthy of ranking in you deem it being worthy of ranking in Google in some way. essentially. Um, so Google in some way. essentially. Um, so Google in some way. essentially. Um, so the the bit of an X factor there is the the bit of an X factor there is the the bit of an X factor there is if you optimize a whole bunch of content if you optimize a whole bunch of content if you optimize a whole bunch of content on one website, a bunch of about a whole on one website, a bunch of about a whole on one website, a bunch of about a whole bunch of different topics, that can be bunch of different topics, that can be bunch of different topics, that can be kind of confusing. So kind of confusing. So kind of confusing. So you want your message in terms of like

you want your message in terms of like you want your message in terms of like you want a robot or an AI agent or you want a robot or an AI agent or you want a robot or an AI agent or whoever is kind of evaluating the whoever is kind of evaluating the whoever is kind of evaluating the content for it to be intuitive that okay content for it to be intuitive that okay content for it to be intuitive that okay this is a church they have these this is a church they have these this is a church they have these services that it makes sense that a services that it makes sense that a services that it makes sense that a church would have. But if if there is church would have. But if if there is church would have. But if if there is content on your website that's kind of content on your website that's kind of content on your website that's kind of like superfluous to what your church is like superfluous to what your church is like superfluous to what your church is and what it offers then you might not and what it offers then you might not and what it offers then you might not want to optimize that. You might even want to optimize that. You might even want to optimize that. You might even want to know when index it because it want to know when index it because it want to know when index it because it might just be kind of confusing. But so might just be kind of confusing. But so might just be kind of confusing. But so content that is sort of consistent with content that is sort of consistent with content that is sort of consistent with your church's identity and the things your church's identity and the things your church's identity and the things that you do that you do that you do should be optimized because you want it should be optimized because you want it should be optimized because you want it to be found in Google. But if there's a to be found in Google. But if there's a to be found in Google. But if there's a whole bunch of pages on your website whole bunch of pages on your website whole bunch of pages on your website that have very very little content, like that have very very little content, like that have very very little content, like a lot of um excuse my dog there. Um a lot of um excuse my dog there. Um a lot of um excuse my dog there. Um he's got a dog and a four-year-old and he's got a dog and a four-year-old and he's got a dog and a four-year-old and there's all kinds of stuff going on at there's all kinds of stuff going on at there's all kinds of stuff going on at the caller house right now. Yeah. the caller house right now. Yeah. the caller house right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I might have to pick him Yeah. Yeah. I I might have to pick him Yeah. Yeah. I I might have to pick him up so he doesn't uh keep barking here. up so he doesn't uh keep barking here. up so he doesn't uh keep barking here. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. I'm sure we have some dog fans watching I'm sure we have some dog fans watching I'm sure we have some dog fans watching listening to the podcast. listening to the podcast. listening to the podcast. Oh, look at that. Oh, look at that. Oh, look at that. Guest visit from Roger here.

Guest visit from Roger here. Guest visit from Roger here. What's his name? What's his name? What's his name? His name's Roger. His name's Roger. His name's Roger. Roger. Roger. Roger. He's uh he's one. He's uh he's one. He's uh he's one. But anyway, what I was going to get at But anyway, what I was going to get at But anyway, what I was going to get at is uh you might have a lot of pages on is uh you might have a lot of pages on is uh you might have a lot of pages on your church website that really just your church website that really just your church website that really just don't have a lot of content. Like unless don't have a lot of content. Like unless don't have a lot of content. Like unless you're being extremely purposeful in you're being extremely purposeful in you're being extremely purposeful in optimizing the pages for your sermon optimizing the pages for your sermon optimizing the pages for your sermon every week, if you're just using a every week, if you're just using a every week, if you're just using a plugin or, you know, embedding plugin or, you know, embedding plugin or, you know, embedding um, you know, a short code from from a um, you know, a short code from from a um, you know, a short code from from a third party service, that that is what a third party service, that that is what a third party service, that that is what a lot of churches do, um, there's going to lot of churches do, um, there's going to lot of churches do, um, there's going to be very little SEO value there. Or some be very little SEO value there. Or some be very little SEO value there. Or some things like events may or may not be things like events may or may not be things like events may or may not be optimized well. So, there could be a lot optimized well. So, there could be a lot optimized well. So, there could be a lot of pages on your website that really of pages on your website that really of pages on your website that really just aren't going to benefit from just aren't going to benefit from just aren't going to benefit from optimization. There's not going to be a optimization. There's not going to be a optimization. There's not going to be a long-term uh, benefit there. But for long-term uh, benefit there. But for long-term uh, benefit there. But for things like ministries, things like ministries, things like ministries, if they're core to what your church is if they're core to what your church is if they're core to what your church is and what you're offering, then yeah, you and what you're offering, then yeah, you and what you're offering, then yeah, you should be optimizing around that so should be optimizing around that so should be optimizing around that so people can find it people can find it people can find it and making it clear for for LLMs and and making it clear for for LLMs and and making it clear for for LLMs and agents exactly what that ministry does. agents exactly what that ministry does. agents exactly what that ministry does. Like what do you really offer? Spell it Like what do you really offer? Spell it Like what do you really offer? Spell it out in things like schema so that it's out in things like schema so that it's out in things like schema so that it's clear, you know, what it is you're clear, you know, what it is you're clear, you know, what it is you're providing so that when somebody asks for providing so that when somebody asks for providing so that when somebody asks for it, the the agent can say, "Okay, here's it, the the agent can say, "Okay, here's it, the the agent can say, "Okay, here's where here's where you can go for help.

Um, I this is so fascinating. I I we we Um, I this is so fascinating. I I we we probably need to land this, but I I probably need to land this, but I I probably need to land this, but I I actually I have one question. I think actually I have one question. I think actually I have one question. I think it's probably going to allow us to have it's probably going to allow us to have it's probably going to allow us to have another upcoming podcast. another upcoming podcast. another upcoming podcast. That is this idea of these things I've That is this idea of these things I've That is this idea of these things I've been hearing called AI agents. And I been hearing called AI agents. And I been hearing called AI agents. And I don't think many people know what that don't think many people know what that don't think many people know what that is or what that could do. So would you is or what that could do. So would you is or what that could do. So would you briefly explain what an AI agent because briefly explain what an AI agent because briefly explain what an AI agent because I hear that it's that's everyone's gonna I hear that it's that's everyone's gonna I hear that it's that's everyone's gonna have an a agent you know moving down the have an a agent you know moving down the have an a agent you know moving down the So that's extremely used the word Jason So that's extremely used the word Jason So that's extremely used the word Jason has used the word agent a lot used the has used the word agent a lot used the has used the word agent a lot used the word aentic which means agentish agent word aentic which means agentish agent word aentic which means agentish agent like I don't know agentic for those of like I don't know agentic for those of like I don't know agentic for those of you who are trying to pick up what he you who are trying to pick up what he you who are trying to pick up what he was dropping aentic is related to agents was dropping aentic is related to agents was dropping aentic is related to agents right so um that's extremely broad but right so um that's extremely broad but right so um that's extremely broad but what what people mean when they say an what what people mean when they say an what what people mean when they say an AI agent is an AI system that can take AI agent is an AI system that can take AI agent is an AI system that can take action really that has sort of agency action really that has sort of agency action really that has sort of agency itself like it can it can actually do itself like it can it can actually do itself like it can it can actually do something in terms of like rather than something in terms of like rather than something in terms of like rather than if you're just talking to chat GPT if you're just talking to chat GPT if you're just talking to chat GPT you can't tell it to go off and do you can't tell it to go off and do you can't tell it to go off and do something unless you're using deep something unless you're using deep something unless you're using deep research right it's just going to it's research right it's just going to it's research right it's just going to it's going to use the information it's going to use the information it's going to use the information it's trained on it's not going to be able to trained on it's not going to be able to trained on it's not going to be able to go and you know sync into your Google go and you know sync into your Google go and you know sync into your Google calendar and blah blah blah blah blah calendar and blah blah blah blah blah calendar and blah blah blah blah blah unless you have the necessary unless you have the necessary unless you have the necessary integrations like the base chat GPT just integrations like the base chat GPT just integrations like the base chat GPT just doesn't work that way It's an LLM.

doesn't work that way It's an LLM. doesn't work that way It's an LLM. That's what it is. So, an AI agent is a That's what it is. So, an AI agent is a That's what it is. So, an AI agent is a just a system that can take action and just a system that can take action and just a system that can take action and that may be all sorts of different that may be all sorts of different that may be all sorts of different actions. So, uh in in in the context of actions. So, uh in in in the context of actions. So, uh in in in the context of what we were talking about in this what we were talking about in this what we were talking about in this podcast, it was doing things like podcast, it was doing things like podcast, it was doing things like performing a Google search and then performing a Google search and then performing a Google search and then reading the search results and going to reading the search results and going to reading the search results and going to those web pages and evaluating their those web pages and evaluating their those web pages and evaluating their content and parsing the HTML and the content and parsing the HTML and the content and parsing the HTML and the schema and then making decisions to schema and then making decisions to schema and then making decisions to provide an answer to the user. But it provide an answer to the user. But it provide an answer to the user. But it might be something like um making a might be something like um making a might be something like um making a phone call as a voice agent on behalf of phone call as a voice agent on behalf of phone call as a voice agent on behalf of your church or picking up a phone call your church or picking up a phone call your church or picking up a phone call or sending a text message or or sending a text message or or sending a text message or categorizing your email or doing all categorizing your email or doing all categorizing your email or doing all sorts of different things that could be sorts of different things that could be sorts of different things that could be helpful to you that an AI system is helpful to you that an AI system is helpful to you that an AI system is capable of doing. Um, so really all AI capable of doing. Um, so really all AI capable of doing. Um, so really all AI agent means is an an AI system that can agent means is an an AI system that can agent means is an an AI system that can take action and there's a lot of actions take action and there's a lot of actions take action and there's a lot of actions right now that AI is uh is very much right now that AI is uh is very much right now that AI is uh is very much capable of doing at a relatively high uh capable of doing at a relatively high uh capable of doing at a relatively high uh level and it's just continuing to get level and it's just continuing to get level and it's just continuing to get better which is cool from an efficiency better which is cool from an efficiency better which is cool from an efficiency standpoint and scary from a what world standpoint and scary from a what world standpoint and scary from a what world do we live in? What's real? what's not do we live in? What's real? what's not do we live in? What's real? what's not and uh you know what do I have to be and uh you know what do I have to be and uh you know what do I have to be careful about on the internet now sort careful about on the internet now sort careful about on the internet now sort of uh situation as well. Yeah, I'd of uh situation as well. Yeah, I'd of uh situation as well. Yeah, I'd really love to have us have a podcast on really love to have us have a podcast on really love to have us have a podcast on that because I think there's could be that because I think there's could be that because I think there's could be some really practical things that a some really practical things that a some really practical things that a church could build an agent to help them church could build an agent to help them church could build an agent to help them do specific tasks every week or daily do specific tasks every week or daily do specific tasks every week or daily and what does that look like and and how and what does that look like and and how and what does that look like and and how is it going to help the church be more is it going to help the church be more is it going to help the church be more efficient, move the ball forward and

efficient, move the ball forward and efficient, move the ball forward and reaching more people and all that stuff reaching more people and all that stuff reaching more people and all that stuff that we we are trying to teach churches that we we are trying to teach churches that we we are trying to teach churches around. So, I think we're gonna have to around. So, I think we're gonna have to around. So, I think we're gonna have to schedule some more time with you, Jason. schedule some more time with you, Jason. schedule some more time with you, Jason. Yeah. If only someone was working on Yeah. If only someone was working on Yeah. If only someone was working on stuff like that, right? That would be stuff like that, right? That would be stuff like that, right? That would be that would be cool. that would be cool. that would be cool. There might be uh it's interesting. So There might be uh it's interesting. So There might be uh it's interesting. So So let me I I see these ads So let me I I see these ads So let me I I see these ads periodically. They come up in my social periodically. They come up in my social periodically. They come up in my social feeds and and and the like. And the ads feeds and and and the like. And the ads feeds and and and the like. And the ads are for a service, an AI service that are for a service, an AI service that are for a service, an AI service that can help me organize my emails, can help me organize my emails, can help me organize my emails, automatically respond to certain emails automatically respond to certain emails automatically respond to certain emails based on certain situations and based on certain situations and based on certain situations and circumstances, or prioritize emails for circumstances, or prioritize emails for circumstances, or prioritize emails for me. I'm assuming that is an agent type me. I'm assuming that is an agent type me. I'm assuming that is an agent type of application that I would be paying of application that I would be paying of application that I would be paying for if I decided to use that. for if I decided to use that. for if I decided to use that. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, the line between like what Yeah. I mean, the line between like what Yeah. I mean, the line between like what is AI and what isn't AI is so hard to is AI and what isn't AI is so hard to is AI and what isn't AI is so hard to draw. I actually I gave a talk I think draw. I actually I gave a talk I think draw. I actually I gave a talk I think it's about two years ago now. We put it's about two years ago now. We put it's about two years ago now. We put together sort of an AI um I think we together sort of an AI um I think we together sort of an AI um I think we called it a summit. called it a summit. called it a summit. What was the name of the summit, Mr. What was the name of the summit, Mr. What was the name of the summit, Mr. Hamrock? Do you remember what I'm Hamrock? Do you remember what I'm Hamrock? Do you remember what I'm talking about?

talking about? talking about? The um AI for churches. No, the The um AI for churches. No, the The um AI for churches. No, the it was even it even predated that I it was even it even predated that I it was even it even predated that I think slightly think slightly think slightly but it was like the AI innovation summit but it was like the AI innovation summit but it was like the AI innovation summit or something we called it. Anyway, we or something we called it. Anyway, we or something we called it. Anyway, we had had had yeah we had a lot of content there and yeah we had a lot of content there and yeah we had a lot of content there and the one thing that in doing research for the one thing that in doing research for the one thing that in doing research for that and just as AI has become more that and just as AI has become more that and just as AI has become more prominent that I found really prominent that I found really prominent that I found really interesting is nobody can really decide interesting is nobody can really decide interesting is nobody can really decide like where the line is. Is this AI? Is like where the line is. Is this AI? Is like where the line is. Is this AI? Is it not AI? And the people who are it not AI? And the people who are it not AI? And the people who are building the tools just don't care what building the tools just don't care what building the tools just don't care what you call it. It's just we're building you call it. It's just we're building you call it. It's just we're building something cool. So so who cares if it's something cool. So so who cares if it's something cool. So so who cares if it's AI or not? But to answer your question, AI or not? But to answer your question, AI or not? But to answer your question, Bart, yeah, I would consider that to be Bart, yeah, I would consider that to be Bart, yeah, I would consider that to be an AI agent. an AI agent. an AI agent. Okay, very interesting. Okay, very interesting. Okay, very interesting. And you're going to see a lot of them And you're going to see a lot of them And you're going to see a lot of them coming out here and you're going to be coming out here and you're going to be coming out here and you're going to be talking to them in the next few years. talking to them in the next few years. talking to them in the next few years. The amount of time you spend talking to The amount of time you spend talking to The amount of time you spend talking to AI agents versus people, that scale is AI agents versus people, that scale is AI agents versus people, that scale is going to tip dramatically. You've going to tip dramatically. You've going to tip dramatically. You've probably already talked to some AI probably already talked to some AI probably already talked to some AI agents on the phone, receive calls from agents on the phone, receive calls from agents on the phone, receive calls from them, but it's going to be a lot more them, but it's going to be a lot more them, but it's going to be a lot more prominent. when you call places, when prominent. when you call places, when prominent. when you call places, when you call businesses, you're going to be you call businesses, you're going to be you call businesses, you're going to be getting an AI agent a lot more often getting an AI agent a lot more often getting an AI agent a lot more often than you're probably expecting in the than you're probably expecting in the than you're probably expecting in the next year or two.

next year or two. next year or two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting stuff. Uh Mr. Hamrock, Very interesting stuff. Uh Mr. Hamrock, Very interesting stuff. Uh Mr. Hamrock, you have any parting shots today before you have any parting shots today before you have any parting shots today before we wrap this thing up? we wrap this thing up? we wrap this thing up? Don't be overwhelmed because we're all Don't be overwhelmed because we're all Don't be overwhelmed because we're all learning this at the same rate and learning this at the same rate and learning this at the same rate and speed. And if you feel like you're speed. And if you feel like you're speed. And if you feel like you're really really far behind, you're in good really really far behind, you're in good really really far behind, you're in good company. And the good news is it's company. And the good news is it's company. And the good news is it's probably going to change. And so, uh, probably going to change. And so, uh, probably going to change. And so, uh, keep dialing in, keep listening to the keep dialing in, keep listening to the keep dialing in, keep listening to the podcast because we'll we'll bring Jason podcast because we'll we'll bring Jason podcast because we'll we'll bring Jason on because he is a he's a source of on because he is a he's a source of on because he is a he's a source of knowledge for us, at least as much as he knowledge for us, at least as much as he knowledge for us, at least as much as he knows, um, that we can share with you knows, um, that we can share with you knows, um, that we can share with you guys because we're all in it to try and guys because we're all in it to try and guys because we're all in it to try and help churches get better and more help churches get better and more help churches get better and more efficient. efficient. efficient. Yeah. Before we, uh, wrap up, uh, Jason Yeah. Before we, uh, wrap up, uh, Jason Yeah. Before we, uh, wrap up, uh, Jason did mention, uh, our Sermon Spark tool. did mention, uh, our Sermon Spark tool. did mention, uh, our Sermon Spark tool. Um, Jason, why don't you just give a Um, Jason, why don't you just give a Um, Jason, why don't you just give a quick little pitch for what Sermon Spark quick little pitch for what Sermon Spark quick little pitch for what Sermon Spark is? Do you know how many pastors or is? Do you know how many pastors or is? Do you know how many pastors or church leaders are using Sermon Spark church leaders are using Sermon Spark church leaders are using Sermon Spark these days? and and yeah, why don't you these days? and and yeah, why don't you these days? and and yeah, why don't you why don't you just give us a little why don't you just give us a little why don't you just give us a little elevator pitch for Sermon Spark, Mr. elevator pitch for Sermon Spark, Mr. elevator pitch for Sermon Spark, Mr. Collier? Collier? Collier? Sure. Sermon Spark is a sermon Sure. Sermon Spark is a sermon Sure. Sermon Spark is a sermon preparation um AI powered assistant for preparation um AI powered assistant for preparation um AI powered assistant for for pastors. Uh helps you with research for pastors. Uh helps you with research for pastors. Uh helps you with research in terms of just fleshing out ideas uh in terms of just fleshing out ideas uh in terms of just fleshing out ideas uh referencing for um you know, biblical referencing for um you know, biblical referencing for um you know, biblical truth. And um also in in the writing truth. And um also in in the writing truth. And um also in in the writing process, it can provide outlines, process, it can provide outlines, process, it can provide outlines, provide suggest some titles, but it's provide suggest some titles, but it's provide suggest some titles, but it's not going to write your sermon for you.

not going to write your sermon for you. not going to write your sermon for you. So, it's not a sermon writer powered by So, it's not a sermon writer powered by So, it's not a sermon writer powered by AI. It's a sermon research assistant AI. It's a sermon research assistant AI. It's a sermon research assistant powered by AI. But it also does some powered by AI. But it also does some powered by AI. But it also does some other things in terms of it can other things in terms of it can other things in terms of it can transcribe your sermon on YouTube, give transcribe your sermon on YouTube, give transcribe your sermon on YouTube, give you the transcript, and then help you you the transcript, and then help you you the transcript, and then help you generate some blog posts or social media generate some blog posts or social media generate some blog posts or social media posts, things of that nature um around posts, things of that nature um around posts, things of that nature um around that. So, we actually have uh a bunch of that. So, we actually have uh a bunch of that. So, we actually have uh a bunch of communications people at churches who communications people at churches who communications people at churches who use Sermon Spark as opposed to uh the use Sermon Spark as opposed to uh the use Sermon Spark as opposed to uh the pastor there because they just kind of pastor there because they just kind of pastor there because they just kind of want to do the post sermon stuff. Um, so want to do the post sermon stuff. Um, so want to do the post sermon stuff. Um, so lots of good tools and uh, yeah, we've lots of good tools and uh, yeah, we've lots of good tools and uh, yeah, we've had I think 6,500 um, different either had I think 6,500 um, different either had I think 6,500 um, different either uh, pastors or communication people give uh, pastors or communication people give uh, pastors or communication people give it a try up to this point and uh, yeah, it a try up to this point and uh, yeah, it a try up to this point and uh, yeah, people seem to to enjoy their time with people seem to to enjoy their time with people seem to to enjoy their time with it and you can sign up for free and you it and you can sign up for free and you it and you can sign up for free and you can transcribe for free. There is a paid can transcribe for free. There is a paid can transcribe for free. There is a paid level of service but uh, you can get a level of service but uh, you can get a level of service but uh, you can get a lot of mileage out of it for free as our lot of mileage out of it for free as our lot of mileage out of it for free as our users have been doing every week. users have been doing every week. users have been doing every week. I believe the URL for that is I believe the URL for that is I believe the URL for that is sermonspark.ai. sermonspark.ai. sermonspark.ai. Is that correct? That is correct. Is that correct? That is correct. Is that correct? That is correct. Germanspark.ai. I will just as a user uh Germanspark.ai. I will just as a user uh Germanspark.ai. I will just as a user uh I use it every week after uh our team I use it every week after uh our team I use it every week after uh our team has preached a sermon. We use it to pull has preached a sermon. We use it to pull has preached a sermon. We use it to pull the transcript to pull some social media the transcript to pull some social media the transcript to pull some social media content and to use it to create a blog content and to use it to create a blog content and to use it to create a blog post every single week and uh find it to post every single week and uh find it to post every single week and uh find it to be super super helpful. So for those of be super super helpful. So for those of be super super helpful. So for those of you who haven't yet tried it, it's you who haven't yet tried it, it's you who haven't yet tried it, it's probably worth trying. For those of you probably worth trying. For those of you probably worth trying. For those of you who haven't yet subscribed to the who haven't yet subscribed to the who haven't yet subscribed to the missional marketing podcast, we want to missional marketing podcast, we want to missional marketing podcast, we want to remind you to do that. If you're remind you to do that. If you're remind you to do that. If you're watching on the YouTube channel, make watching on the YouTube channel, make watching on the YouTube channel, make sure you subscribe there. If you're sure you subscribe there. If you're sure you subscribe there. If you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcast or listening on Spotify or Apple Podcast or listening on Spotify or Apple Podcast or whatever your favorite podcast platform whatever your favorite podcast platform whatever your favorite podcast platform is, make sure that you uh subscribe so is, make sure that you uh subscribe so is, make sure that you uh subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. And if

you don't miss future episodes. And if you don't miss future episodes. And if you think that this episode would be you think that this episode would be you think that this episode would be helpful for somebody uh in ministry, helpful for somebody uh in ministry, helpful for somebody uh in ministry, somebody that you know who uh is curious somebody that you know who uh is curious somebody that you know who uh is curious about how AI and uh GEO is impacting the about how AI and uh GEO is impacting the about how AI and uh GEO is impacting the SEO landscape. SEO is not dead. I guess SEO landscape. SEO is not dead. I guess SEO landscape. SEO is not dead. I guess that's the message that we want to that's the message that we want to that's the message that we want to communicate. SEO is still relevant. All communicate. SEO is still relevant. All communicate. SEO is still relevant. All the things that we've been coaching you the things that we've been coaching you the things that we've been coaching you up to this point are still relevant. In up to this point are still relevant. In up to this point are still relevant. In fact, probably a lot of the things that fact, probably a lot of the things that fact, probably a lot of the things that we've been coaching you on, you probably we've been coaching you on, you probably we've been coaching you on, you probably need to double down on uh to some need to double down on uh to some need to double down on uh to some degree. Uh the the rules still maintain degree. Uh the the rules still maintain degree. Uh the the rules still maintain uh the same, you know, the same impact. uh the same, you know, the same impact. uh the same, you know, the same impact. It's kind of like being healthy, being It's kind of like being healthy, being It's kind of like being healthy, being healthy as a human. Um you know, maybe healthy as a human. Um you know, maybe healthy as a human. Um you know, maybe there's new foods and new exercises out, there's new foods and new exercises out, there's new foods and new exercises out, but you still need to keep to the but you still need to keep to the but you still need to keep to the fundamentals and do the basic things to fundamentals and do the basic things to fundamentals and do the basic things to be a healthy person and to have a be a healthy person and to have a be a healthy person and to have a healthy website. We want to make sure healthy website. We want to make sure healthy website. We want to make sure that we're following all the basic SEO that we're following all the basic SEO that we're following all the basic SEO rules. And uh we'd love to have more rules. And uh we'd love to have more rules. And uh we'd love to have more conversation with you about that. if conversation with you about that. if conversation with you about that. if you'd like to set up a call uh with you'd like to set up a call uh with you'd like to set up a call uh with Jason or me, we can do an audit of your Jason or me, we can do an audit of your Jason or me, we can do an audit of your website and we can help you uh look at website and we can help you uh look at website and we can help you uh look at the SEO on your website and see how we the SEO on your website and see how we the SEO on your website and see how we might be able to improve it, whether might be able to improve it, whether might be able to improve it, whether that's giving you some coaching and that's giving you some coaching and that's giving you some coaching and guidance or whether marketing might be guidance or whether marketing might be guidance or whether marketing might be able to help you out with that uh on the able to help you out with that uh on the able to help you out with that uh on the back end. So, um on behalf of Mr.

back end. So, um on behalf of Mr. back end. So, um on behalf of Mr. Hamrock, Mr. Collier, and Roger Collier, Hamrock, Mr. Collier, and Roger Collier, Hamrock, Mr. Collier, and Roger Collier, uh that's his name, right? Roger uh that's his name, right? Roger uh that's his name, right? Roger Collier. There he is. Roger the I'm Bart Collier. There he is. Roger the I'm Bart Collier. There he is. Roger the I'm Bart Blair. Thanks so much for joining us on Blair. Thanks so much for joining us on Blair. Thanks so much for joining us on another episode of the Missional another episode of the Missional another episode of the Missional Marketing Podcast.