Marketing the "Difference Factor" For Your Church | Justin Wise

[Music] [Music] you can't rely on kind of maybe you can't rely on kind of maybe you can't rely on kind of maybe bombastic tactics that you could in the bombastic tactics that you could in the bombastic tactics that you could in the past past past and so the the difference maker at least and so the the difference maker at least and so the the difference maker at least what we're seeing now what we're seeing now what we're seeing now is identifying okay is identifying okay is identifying okay in a church context this is who we are in a church context this is who we are in a church context this is who we are which also includes answering the which also includes answering the which also includes answering the question this is who we are not question this is who we are not question this is who we are not uh and this is again in a church context uh and this is again in a church context uh and this is again in a church context this is what we are called to do these this is what we are called to do these this is what we are called to do these these are the people we're called to these are the people we're called to these are the people we're called to reach reach reach and when you sound like every other and when you sound like every other and when you sound like every other organization on the planet organization on the planet organization on the planet that's where you lose that's where you lose that's where you lose so you're behind the eight ball even so you're behind the eight ball even so you're behind the eight ball even before you start talking about tactics before you start talking about tactics before you start talking about tactics well it's my privilege to welcome you to well it's my privilege to welcome you to well it's my privilege to welcome you to season 3 episode 6 of the missional season 3 episode 6 of the missional season 3 episode 6 of the missional marketing podcast my name is bart blair marketing podcast my name is bart blair marketing podcast my name is bart blair i'm the co-host of the show and our goal i'm the co-host of the show and our goal i'm the co-host of the show and our goal with this podcast is to help your church with this podcast is to help your church with this podcast is to help your church grow by leveraging digital marketing and grow by leveraging digital marketing and grow by leveraging digital marketing and effective communications effective communications effective communications we try to produce a podcast episode we try to produce a podcast episode we try to produce a podcast episode every week that will help your church every week that will help your church every week that will help your church reach more people online specifically reach more people online specifically reach more people online specifically the people in the community that god has the people in the community that god has the people in the community that god has called you to reach and i think that we called you to reach and i think that we called you to reach and i think that we nailed it with this particular episode nailed it with this particular episode nailed it with this particular episode jason and i recently sat down with a jason and i recently sat down with a jason and i recently sat down with a marketplace leader named justin wise who marketplace leader named justin wise who marketplace leader named justin wise who used to be a pastor and who now serves used to be a pastor and who now serves used to be a pastor and who now serves businesses and entrepreneurs helping businesses and entrepreneurs helping businesses and entrepreneurs helping them use their marketing to get noticed them use their marketing to get noticed them use their marketing to get noticed online and to attract the right online and to attract the right online and to attract the right customers for their business and the customers for their business and the customers for their business and the things that he shares with us in this things that he shares with us in this things that he shares with us in this episode i think is going to really help episode i think is going to really help episode i think is going to really help us as church communications us as church communications us as church communications professionals do our job better at professionals do our job better at professionals do our job better at attracting people in our community who attracting people in our community who attracting people in our community who are most likely to be interested in who

are most likely to be interested in who are most likely to be interested in who we are and what we have to offer we are and what we have to offer we are and what we have to offer challenges us with some incredible challenges us with some incredible challenges us with some incredible questions and things that we need to questions and things that we need to questions and things that we need to think through as church leaders i think think through as church leaders i think think through as church leaders i think you're going to find this episode really you're going to find this episode really you're going to find this episode really really helpful uh if you find our really helpful uh if you find our really helpful uh if you find our podcast helpful we hope that you will podcast helpful we hope that you will podcast helpful we hope that you will leave us a rating and a review wherever leave us a rating and a review wherever leave us a rating and a review wherever you're listening or watching the podcast you're listening or watching the podcast you're listening or watching the podcast and if you're not subscribed make sure and if you're not subscribed make sure and if you're not subscribed make sure that you do that so that you don't miss that you do that so that you don't miss that you do that so that you don't miss any future episodes it's a privilege for any future episodes it's a privilege for any future episodes it's a privilege for us to be able to do this for you we us to be able to do this for you we us to be able to do this for you we would love for you to share it with would love for you to share it with would love for you to share it with others so that more people can find the others so that more people can find the others so that more people can find the podcast if you are finding it helpful podcast if you are finding it helpful podcast if you are finding it helpful anyway anyway anyway that's all i got for an intro this week that's all i got for an intro this week that's all i got for an intro this week so without any further delay i'm going so without any further delay i'm going so without any further delay i'm going to introduce to you the ceo of missional to introduce to you the ceo of missional to introduce to you the ceo of missional marketing mr jason hamrock and here's marketing mr jason hamrock and here's marketing mr jason hamrock and here's our interview with justin wise our interview with justin wise our interview with justin wise well hey justin welcome to the show glad well hey justin welcome to the show glad well hey justin welcome to the show glad to uh have you here how's it going to uh have you here how's it going to uh have you here how's it going hey i appreciate the invite it's going hey i appreciate the invite it's going hey i appreciate the invite it's going well well good awesome hey for our our well well good awesome hey for our our well well good awesome hey for our our listeners just kind of uh give a brief listeners just kind of uh give a brief listeners just kind of uh give a brief background uh you know your history what background uh you know your history what background uh you know your history what you've been up to where you're headed you've been up to where you're headed you've been up to where you're headed that kind of a thing that'd be great that kind of a thing that'd be great that kind of a thing that'd be great yeah so i graduated uh seminary in 2006 yeah so i graduated uh seminary in 2006 yeah so i graduated uh seminary in 2006 and had every intention of and had every intention of and had every intention of being a lifelong ordained lutheran being a lifelong ordained lutheran being a lifelong ordained lutheran minister if you can believe it minister if you can believe it minister if you can believe it and uh i worked at a lutheran mega and uh i worked at a lutheran mega and uh i worked at a lutheran mega church they do exist church they do exist church they do exist and everything was going swimmingly and and everything was going swimmingly and and everything was going swimmingly and then i i decided one day like then i i decided one day like then i i decided one day like hey um i'm not sure that this is

hey um i'm not sure that this is hey um i'm not sure that this is actually for me and uh you know people actually for me and uh you know people actually for me and uh you know people hear that and they take it a number of hear that and they take it a number of hear that and they take it a number of different ways but really what it came different ways but really what it came different ways but really what it came down to was down to was down to was i love the people i worked with we still i love the people i worked with we still i love the people i worked with we still attend that church uh but attend that church uh but attend that church uh but there was a vision that i felt there was a vision that i felt there was a vision that i felt was bigger than what i was living out in was bigger than what i was living out in was bigger than what i was living out in the church the church the church um um um and so six months after i graduated and so six months after i graduated and so six months after i graduated seminary seminary seminary uh uh uh which was hilarious the timing of it i which was hilarious the timing of it i which was hilarious the timing of it i left my position left my position left my position at the church at the church at the church and and and started consulting and long story short started consulting and long story short started consulting and long story short uh what i what i did at the church was uh what i what i did at the church was uh what i what i did at the church was what we call it now digital marketing what we call it now digital marketing what we call it now digital marketing but but but back then we didn't call it that back then we didn't call it that back then we didn't call it that uh we call it outreach or you know these uh we call it outreach or you know these uh we call it outreach or you know these sorts of things and so sorts of things and so sorts of things and so um um um that's what i ended up helping other that's what i ended up helping other that's what i ended up helping other churches do is integrating you know churches do is integrating you know churches do is integrating you know things like social media email marketing things like social media email marketing things like social media email marketing we eventually created a course sold that we eventually created a course sold that we eventually created a course sold that course uh to an amazing course uh to an amazing course uh to an amazing company and then started focusing in on company and then started focusing in on company and then started focusing in on small business owners small business owners small business owners doing the same type of stuff but not so doing the same type of stuff but not so doing the same type of stuff but not so much for churches anymore but for small much for churches anymore but for small much for churches anymore but for small businesses businesses businesses and have built a couple businesses since and have built a couple businesses since and have built a couple businesses since that point that point that point really that's what i do hang out mostly really that's what i do hang out mostly really that's what i do hang out mostly on the marketing side on the marketing side on the marketing side uh in helping uh in helping uh in helping business owners founders ceos business owners founders ceos business owners founders ceos build attention grabbing brands build attention grabbing brands build attention grabbing brands that's kind of like my um that's kind of like my um that's kind of like my um my favorite thing to do when i wake up my favorite thing to do when i wake up my favorite thing to do when i wake up yeah and uh yeah so married happily

yeah and uh yeah so married happily yeah and uh yeah so married happily married three amazing kids and uh married three amazing kids and uh married three amazing kids and uh and just you know trying to make a and just you know trying to make a and just you know trying to make a difference there you go i i i love that difference there you go i i i love that difference there you go i i i love that that story um that story um that story um and uh and uh and uh and i kind of have a similar story and i and i kind of have a similar story and i and i kind of have a similar story and i worked in a church for a long time and worked in a church for a long time and worked in a church for a long time and and i i left and i i left and i i left the the staff position and now i find the the staff position and now i find the the staff position and now i find myself getting to serve lots of churches myself getting to serve lots of churches myself getting to serve lots of churches instead of just one because instead of just one because instead of just one because i'm not i'm on mission like you know i'm not i'm on mission like you know i'm not i'm on mission like you know kind of like you're a mission you wanted kind of like you're a mission you wanted kind of like you're a mission you wanted to find that sweet spot where is god to find that sweet spot where is god to find that sweet spot where is god calling you and for for me it's it's calling you and for for me it's it's calling you and for for me it's it's about helping churches helping churches about helping churches helping churches about helping churches helping churches digitally reach more people and so you digitally reach more people and so you digitally reach more people and so you you know this is so you know this is so you know this is so exciting for me because this is what exciting for me because this is what exciting for me because this is what you're doing for for businesses and and you're doing for for businesses and and you're doing for for businesses and and that old that old that old saying or adage that the churches tends saying or adage that the churches tends saying or adage that the churches tends to be you know 10 years behind of where to be you know 10 years behind of where to be you know 10 years behind of where the secular you know where technology's the secular you know where technology's the secular you know where technology's going or or just the business practices going or or just the business practices going or or just the business practices and things of that nature that's kind of and things of that nature that's kind of and things of that nature that's kind of our mission is like how can we bring our mission is like how can we bring our mission is like how can we bring them up more up to speed because we have them up more up to speed because we have them up more up to speed because we have the best message the best message the best message ever and and sharing the good news with ever and and sharing the good news with ever and and sharing the good news with people but we're people but we're people but we're we're a little behind in using some of we're a little behind in using some of we're a little behind in using some of these practices and these principles so these practices and these principles so these practices and these principles so it's kind of where i want to dive in it's kind of where i want to dive in it's kind of where i want to dive in today what today what today what what are some of those things when what are some of those things when what are some of those things when you're consulting you're talking to a you're consulting you're talking to a you're consulting you're talking to a business on how to help them business on how to help them business on how to help them build a brand and build their business build a brand and build their business build a brand and build their business what does that look like and what can what does that look like and what can what does that look like and what can the church learn the church learn the church learn from that from that from that i mean ultimately you know the the i mean ultimately you know the the i mean ultimately you know the the principle that applies to any principle that applies to any principle that applies to any organization church business nonprofit

organization church business nonprofit organization church business nonprofit anywhere in between anywhere in between anywhere in between is really identifying is really identifying is really identifying your your your what we would call your difference what we would call your difference what we would call your difference factor factor factor um because the way marketing works now um because the way marketing works now um because the way marketing works now we're so bombarded with messages we're we're so bombarded with messages we're we're so bombarded with messages we're bombarded with bombarded with bombarded with inputs we're bombarded with inputs we're bombarded with inputs we're bombarded with all these different all these different all these different people and businesses and companies and people and businesses and companies and people and businesses and companies and organizations trying to uh get our organizations trying to uh get our organizations trying to uh get our attention attention attention that you really have to that you really have to that you really have to you can't rely on kind of maybe you can't rely on kind of maybe you can't rely on kind of maybe bombastic tactics that you could in the bombastic tactics that you could in the bombastic tactics that you could in the past past past and so the the difference maker at least and so the the difference maker at least and so the the difference maker at least what we're seeing now what we're seeing now what we're seeing now is identifying okay is identifying okay is identifying okay in a church context this is who we are in a church context this is who we are in a church context this is who we are which also includes answering the which also includes answering the which also includes answering the question this is who we are not question this is who we are not question this is who we are not uh and this is again in a church context uh and this is again in a church context uh and this is again in a church context this is what we are called to do these this is what we are called to do these this is what we are called to do these these are the people we're called to these are the people we're called to these are the people we're called to reach reach reach and when you sound like every other and when you sound like every other and when you sound like every other organization on the planet organization on the planet organization on the planet that's where you lose that's where you lose that's where you lose so you're behind the eight ball even so you're behind the eight ball even so you're behind the eight ball even before you start talking about tactics before you start talking about tactics before you start talking about tactics so when we work with a business and so when we work with a business and so when we work with a business and really any a church could certainly do really any a church could certainly do really any a church could certainly do this is to say okay what are your diff this is to say okay what are your diff this is to say okay what are your diff what's your difference factor what's your difference factor what's your difference factor what makes you unique why do you stand what makes you unique why do you stand what makes you unique why do you stand apart from the rest you know some people apart from the rest you know some people apart from the rest you know some people might call this a usp a unique selling might call this a usp a unique selling might call this a usp a unique selling proposition proposition proposition and churches aren't used to and churches aren't used to and churches aren't used to using that type of language but using that type of language but using that type of language but absolutely every church absolutely every church absolutely every church has a usp i'll give you an example has a usp i'll give you an example has a usp i'll give you an example the church that i used to work at was a

the church that i used to work at was a the church that i used to work at was a lutheran still is a lutheran mega church lutheran still is a lutheran mega church lutheran still is a lutheran mega church there's not many lutheran mega churches there's not many lutheran mega churches there's not many lutheran mega churches on this planet on this planet on this planet in fact there's a handful of them in fact there's a handful of them in fact there's a handful of them and i worked at one that is a usp it's and i worked at one that is a usp it's and i worked at one that is a usp it's an elca church if you don't know an elca church if you don't know an elca church if you don't know anything about anything about anything about lutherans that's like the main lutherans that's like the main lutherans that's like the main denomination denomination denomination and so and so and so so that is totally a difference factor so that is totally a difference factor so that is totally a difference factor for that church for that church for that church um um um and so so even before you start talking and so so even before you start talking and so so even before you start talking about tactics or tools to use uh you about tactics or tools to use uh you about tactics or tools to use uh you really have to identify really have to identify really have to identify okay what's our core message what's our okay what's our core message what's our okay what's our core message what's our difference factor what makes us unique difference factor what makes us unique difference factor what makes us unique and how do we use that in a way and how do we use that in a way and how do we use that in a way that that that um is going to attract the people that um is going to attract the people that um is going to attract the people that again in a church context that god has again in a church context that god has again in a church context that god has called us to reach called us to reach called us to reach so so so that's the starting point and to be that's the starting point and to be that's the starting point and to be honest with you like honest with you like honest with you like that's super difficult uh when i used to that's super difficult uh when i used to that's super difficult uh when i used to work with churches we work with churches we work with churches we would spend would spend would spend a lot of time wading through those two a lot of time wading through those two a lot of time wading through those two kind of components because everyone kind of components because everyone kind of components because everyone wants to get to wants to get to wants to get to well should we be on well should we be on well should we be on youtube or should we be on linkedin or youtube or should we be on linkedin or youtube or should we be on linkedin or should we be on twitter or should we we should we be on twitter or should we we should we be on twitter or should we we be on be on be on or whatever it is or whatever it is or whatever it is whatever the latest greatest whatever the latest greatest whatever the latest greatest yeah should we be on tick tock that's yeah should we be on tick tock that's yeah should we be on tick tock that's the big thing now and that is so the big thing now and that is so the big thing now and that is so that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a later that's a later that's a later uh conversation primary conversation is uh conversation primary conversation is uh conversation primary conversation is what's your difference factor

what's your difference factor what's your difference factor let me let me jump in here justin that's let me let me jump in here justin that's let me let me jump in here justin that's very interesting because in the church very interesting because in the church very interesting because in the church world world world one of the things that we know is true one of the things that we know is true one of the things that we know is true is that there's a lot of copycat is that there's a lot of copycat is that there's a lot of copycat ministry that takes place ministry that takes place ministry that takes place um churches look at other churches um churches look at other churches um churches look at other churches this is maybe this isn't necessarily this is maybe this isn't necessarily this is maybe this isn't necessarily what goes through their heads and their what goes through their heads and their what goes through their heads and their hearts consciously but they they want to hearts consciously but they they want to hearts consciously but they they want to achieve the same achieve the same achieve the same type of success that they see other type of success that they see other type of success that they see other churches achieving whether that's churches achieving whether that's churches achieving whether that's numeric or it's community impact or it's numeric or it's community impact or it's numeric or it's community impact or it's just platform just platform just platform notoriety whatever it is notoriety whatever it is notoriety whatever it is there's something that we're pursuing as there's something that we're pursuing as there's something that we're pursuing as churches and as church leaders and we churches and as church leaders and we churches and as church leaders and we see other people who see other people who see other people who seem to have found the golden ticket and seem to have found the golden ticket and seem to have found the golden ticket and and we want some of that and we want some of that and we want some of that can you help us understand the can you help us understand the can you help us understand the difference between difference between difference between studying and copying best practices that studying and copying best practices that studying and copying best practices that churches might be implementing to churches might be implementing to churches might be implementing to accomplish those things accomplish those things accomplish those things versus versus versus copying churches copying churches copying churches and their and their and their ministry model their philosophy and ministry model their philosophy and ministry model their philosophy and those sorts of things right you're those sorts of things right you're those sorts of things right you're talking about differentiation your usp talking about differentiation your usp talking about differentiation your usp that was the language you used right not that was the language you used right not that was the language you used right not ufc but the usp ufc but the usp ufc but the usp what what what's the difference how how what what what's the difference how how what what what's the difference how how do we help church leaders do we help church leaders do we help church leaders see the difference between borrowing see the difference between borrowing see the difference between borrowing best practices versus simply being best practices versus simply being best practices versus simply being copycat churches copycat churches copycat churches this is a tough question because like a this is a tough question because like a this is a tough question because like a bit in a business context it's super bit in a business context it's super bit in a business context it's super easy it's like easy it's like easy it's like oh wow you know you sell widgets and oh wow you know you sell widgets and oh wow you know you sell widgets and your competitor sells widgets and your

your competitor sells widgets and your your competitor sells widgets and your competitor sells more widgets than you competitor sells more widgets than you competitor sells more widgets than you do do do so so so it is useful it is useful it is useful i wouldn't say it's primarily useful but i wouldn't say it's primarily useful but i wouldn't say it's primarily useful but it can be useful it can be useful it can be useful to look at how are they selling more to look at how are they selling more to look at how are they selling more widgets widgets widgets so it's a little more cut and dry so it's a little more cut and dry so it's a little more cut and dry whereas with churches whereas with churches whereas with churches you know we're not selling anything you know we're not selling anything you know we're not selling anything at least not hopefully at least not hopefully at least not hopefully we're we're not selling anything we are we're we're not selling anything we are we're we're not selling anything we are all on the same team all on the same team all on the same team wearing different jerseys wearing different jerseys wearing different jerseys and so the reality is and so the reality is and so the reality is you may have you may have you may have a club soccer team a club soccer team a club soccer team you may also have you may also have you may also have uh uh uh the the the dallas cowboys which is the most dallas cowboys which is the most dallas cowboys which is the most valuable sports franchise on the planet valuable sports franchise on the planet valuable sports franchise on the planet amen amen amen you're you're you're you're you're you're you i knew you'd like that one yeah you you i knew you'd like that one yeah you you i knew you'd like that one yeah you had to go there didn't you yes had to go there didn't you yes had to go there didn't you yes but the key and this is where um it but the key and this is where um it but the key and this is where um it takes takes takes some some some gut level honesty and listening gut level honesty and listening gut level honesty and listening to the spirit and saying to the spirit and saying to the spirit and saying who who who have you called have you called have you called if you're a pastor me to be if you're a pastor me to be if you're a pastor me to be and what type of church have you called and what type of church have you called and what type of church have you called me to lead me to lead me to lead and being okay with the answer because because if you're not okay with the answer the if you're not okay with the answer the if you're not okay with the answer the second half of that question doesn't second half of that question doesn't second half of that question doesn't really matter what best practices all really matter what best practices all really matter what best practices all that kind of stuff because if you are that kind of stuff because if you are that kind of stuff because if you are not content not content not content uh with uh with uh with so there's a lot of listening right it's

so there's a lot of listening right it's so there's a lot of listening right it's like for me i have to ask the question like for me i have to ask the question like for me i have to ask the question what type of business am i able to build what type of business am i able to build what type of business am i able to build i'll never be an elon musk i'll never be i'll never be an elon musk i'll never be i'll never be an elon musk i'll never be a richard branson ever a richard branson ever a richard branson ever in a million years it's not going to in a million years it's not going to in a million years it's not going to happen happen happen but that doesn't mean i can't learn from but that doesn't mean i can't learn from but that doesn't mean i can't learn from them them them right and so that's where it gets tricky right and so that's where it gets tricky right and so that's where it gets tricky because you first have to address the because you first have to address the because you first have to address the question of question of question of we're all on the same team here we're all on the same team here we're all on the same team here we're all going for the same goal or at we're all going for the same goal or at we're all going for the same goal or at least we are conceptually least we are conceptually least we are conceptually um and i've worked with enough churches um and i've worked with enough churches um and i've worked with enough churches to know that sometimes that's not always to know that sometimes that's not always to know that sometimes that's not always the case the case the case sometimes there's a lot of competition sometimes there's a lot of competition sometimes there's a lot of competition there's a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of uh ego involved and you just we just uh ego involved and you just we just uh ego involved and you just we just have to be real about that have to be real about that have to be real about that and so assuming we can get past that we and so assuming we can get past that we and so assuming we can get past that we have to then identify okay what is have to then identify okay what is have to then identify okay what is what kind of church is god calling us to what kind of church is god calling us to what kind of church is god calling us to be what kind of leader is he calling me be what kind of leader is he calling me be what kind of leader is he calling me me to be me to be me to be uh how can i become a better leader uh how can i become a better leader uh how can i become a better leader number one number two how can i lead the number one number two how can i lead the number one number two how can i lead the people in front of me better people in front of me better people in front of me better um and then we can look at um and then we can look at um and then we can look at the best practices the best practices the best practices because if you start injecting best prac because if you start injecting best prac because if you start injecting best prac best practices best practices best practices into uh into uh into uh or layering i should say best practices or layering i should say best practices or layering i should say best practices on a faulty foundation on a faulty foundation on a faulty foundation you're going to compress you're going to compress you're going to compress issues within the organization issues within the organization issues within the organization so for instance i once worked for the so for instance i once worked for the so for instance i once worked for the church church church i will keep this as broad and generic as i will keep this as broad and generic as i will keep this as broad and generic as possible possible possible and and and we we we there was a certain leader there who was

there was a certain leader there who was there was a certain leader there who was very much about growing his platform growing his brand growing his platform growing his brand i mean this is i'm not making these i mean this is i'm not making these i mean this is i'm not making these words up this is the this is the words up this is the this is the words up this is the this is the language that him and the staff would language that him and the staff would language that him and the staff would use use use and so and so and so injecting growth into an environment injecting growth into an environment injecting growth into an environment like that is like that is like that is disastrous disastrous disastrous because it only compresses down on those because it only compresses down on those because it only compresses down on those hairline fractures hairline fractures hairline fractures that that that most people don't get to see most people don't get to see most people don't get to see so i know that's kind of like so i know that's kind of like so i know that's kind of like uh uh uh that's kind of like big picture that's kind of like big picture that's kind of like big picture but but but when you start talking about best when you start talking about best when you start talking about best practices practices practices you always have to ask yourself like is you always have to ask yourself like is you always have to ask yourself like is growth growth growth is numerical growth okay let's just is numerical growth okay let's just is numerical growth okay let's just center it on that is numerical growth a center it on that is numerical growth a center it on that is numerical growth a good thing for me right now good thing for me right now good thing for me right now because like i'll work with businesses because like i'll work with businesses because like i'll work with businesses and i'll ask them that question i'll say and i'll ask them that question i'll say and i'll ask them that question i'll say if i added a hundred new clients if i added a hundred new clients if i added a hundred new clients into your business tomorrow would that into your business tomorrow would that into your business tomorrow would that be a good thing or a bad thing in almost be a good thing or a bad thing in almost be a good thing or a bad thing in almost all cases they would say that's a bad all cases they would say that's a bad all cases they would say that's a bad thing why do they say that thing why do they say that thing why do they say that you know the purpose of a business is to you know the purpose of a business is to you know the purpose of a business is to grow right well they say that because grow right well they say that because grow right well they say that because they know they know they know we don't have the infrastructure we we don't have the infrastructure we we don't have the infrastructure we don't have the staff we don't have our don't have the staff we don't have our don't have the staff we don't have our we're not tight in our operations we're not tight in our operations we're not tight in our operations uh uh uh we're not super clear on who that best we're not super clear on who that best we're not super clear on who that best client actually is client actually is client actually is and so adding more to the plate

and so adding more to the plate and so adding more to the plate would be a very bad thing for them it would be a very bad thing for them it would be a very bad thing for them it would hurt them and i think god in his would hurt them and i think god in his would hurt them and i think god in his kindness kindness kindness allows us to wrestle with those allows us to wrestle with those allows us to wrestle with those questions questions questions uh until uh until uh until and as and as and as we are we are we are developing answers for that developing answers for that developing answers for that so i'm trying to make this like super so i'm trying to make this like super so i'm trying to make this like super practical but also the reality is practical but also the reality is practical but also the reality is the tactics the tactics the tactics are so are so are so inconsequential i don't want to say they inconsequential i don't want to say they inconsequential i don't want to say they don't matter because they do don't matter because they do don't matter because they do but they're very small pieces of the but they're very small pieces of the but they're very small pieces of the puzzle puzzle puzzle hey bart blair here i'm the producer of hey bart blair here i'm the producer of hey bart blair here i'm the producer of missional marketing's church growth missional marketing's church growth missional marketing's church growth interviews podcast thanks so much for interviews podcast thanks so much for interviews podcast thanks so much for tuning in tuning in tuning in additional marketing we're passionate additional marketing we're passionate additional marketing we're passionate about helping churches reach more people about helping churches reach more people about helping churches reach more people for jesus online and one of the ways for jesus online and one of the ways for jesus online and one of the ways that we do that is by helping churches that we do that is by helping churches that we do that is by helping churches acquire more new visitors to their acquire more new visitors to their acquire more new visitors to their website utilizing the google ad grant website utilizing the google ad grant website utilizing the google ad grant google offers qualifying non-profits google offers qualifying non-profits google offers qualifying non-profits including churches up to ten thousand including churches up to ten thousand including churches up to ten thousand dollars a month in advertising dollars a month in advertising dollars a month in advertising that means that you as a church could be that means that you as a church could be that means that you as a church could be using google as one of your primary using google as one of your primary using google as one of your primary digital outreach strategies to digital outreach strategies to digital outreach strategies to communicate the gospel and reach more communicate the gospel and reach more communicate the gospel and reach more people in your community if you'd like people in your community if you'd like people in your community if you'd like to learn more visit our website to learn more visit our website to learn more visit our website admissionalmarketing.com admissionalmarketing.com admissionalmarketing.com and click the link at the top of the and click the link at the top of the and click the link at the top of the page that says google grant we'd love an page that says google grant we'd love an page that says google grant we'd love an opportunity to partner with you in your opportunity to partner with you in your opportunity to partner with you in your mission to build god's kingdom here on mission to build god's kingdom here on mission to build god's kingdom here on earth well thanks again for listening to earth well thanks again for listening to earth well thanks again for listening to our podcast and now back to the show our podcast and now back to the show our podcast and now back to the show yeah that makes sense to me i mean i yeah that makes sense to me i mean i yeah that makes sense to me i mean i just was on a call with a church that just was on a call with a church that just was on a call with a church that we're stepping in to help with we're stepping in to help with we're stepping in to help with communications communications communications i asked them that question who's your i asked them that question who's your i asked them that question who's your target audience

target audience target audience they couldn't answer no they couldn't answer no they couldn't answer no they had no idea they're they were they had no idea they're they were they had no idea they're they were guessing and they're like actually we guessing and they're like actually we guessing and they're like actually we don't even know don't even know don't even know yeah yeah yeah well if you just say people well if you just say people well if you just say people so that's good you know you're not going so that's good you know you're not going so that's good you know you're not going after horses like you run through people after horses like you run through people after horses like you run through people okay cool we've narrowed it down to okay cool we've narrowed it down to okay cool we've narrowed it down to human beings but let's get a little more human beings but let's get a little more human beings but let's get a little more a little more specific because then it a little more specific because then it a little more specific because then it really helps you articulate your message really helps you articulate your message really helps you articulate your message and and and your colors and images you use text all your colors and images you use text all your colors and images you use text all that kind of stuff because you're going that kind of stuff because you're going that kind of stuff because you're going after a specific audience and then you after a specific audience and then you after a specific audience and then you can now i think this is what you're can now i think this is what you're can now i think this is what you're saying then you can layer in those saying then you can layer in those saying then you can layer in those tactics to tactics to tactics to generate generate generate material that's going to help help you material that's going to help help you material that's going to help help you generate more leads for that target generate more leads for that target generate more leads for that target audience audience audience yeah i just recently wrote on yeah i just recently wrote on yeah i just recently wrote on what i'm calling the million dollar what i'm calling the million dollar what i'm calling the million dollar marketing plan and i'll share the marketing plan and i'll share the marketing plan and i'll share the framework here in case this would be framework here in case this would be framework here in case this would be helpful to somebody listening because helpful to somebody listening because helpful to somebody listening because anybody can use this it doesn't matter anybody can use this it doesn't matter anybody can use this it doesn't matter you don't have to be a business you don't have to be a business you don't have to be a business for this to work for this to work for this to work but it's real simple it's specific but it's real simple it's specific but it's real simple it's specific person specific outcome specific process person specific outcome specific process person specific outcome specific process specific product specific product specific product person outcome process product person outcome process product person outcome process product and knowing those four components is and knowing those four components is and knowing those four components is what i call the million dollar marketing what i call the million dollar marketing what i call the million dollar marketing plan plan plan uh uh uh so so so when you talk about a specific person when you talk about a specific person when you talk about a specific person it's envisioning it's envisioning it's envisioning not this not this not this kind of esoteric you know philosophical kind of esoteric you know philosophical kind of esoteric you know philosophical person that you want to reach person that you want to reach person that you want to reach or this generalized kind of or this generalized kind of or this generalized kind of like you were saying super generic type like you were saying super generic type like you were saying super generic type person it's usually what we like to do person it's usually what we like to do person it's usually what we like to do is get a first name and a last name of a

is get a first name and a last name of a is get a first name and a last name of a real person real person real person that you feel like man in a church that you feel like man in a church that you feel like man in a church context if if my church was filled with context if if my church was filled with context if if my church was filled with hundreds of this person hundreds of this person hundreds of this person i would be in eden man i would be in i would be in eden man i would be in i would be in eden man i would be in glory serving these people glory serving these people glory serving these people and more importantly this is who i feel and more importantly this is who i feel and more importantly this is who i feel drawn to this is who the spirit is drawn to this is who the spirit is drawn to this is who the spirit is drawing me to to serve in this community drawing me to to serve in this community drawing me to to serve in this community so who's your specific person specific so who's your specific person specific so who's your specific person specific outcome outcome outcome what outcome does your organization what outcome does your organization what outcome does your organization provide for your specific person provide for your specific person provide for your specific person so they come to you how do they leave any different thinking how do they leave any different thinking feeling acting any different feeling acting any different feeling acting any different that's your specific outcome that's your specific outcome that's your specific outcome and getting really concrete with it and getting really concrete with it and getting really concrete with it putting handlebars on it putting handlebars on it putting handlebars on it you know churches will use a version of you know churches will use a version of you know churches will use a version of connect grown serve right you hear that connect grown serve right you hear that connect grown serve right you hear that a lot in different forms and variations a lot in different forms and variations a lot in different forms and variations and that's okay like and that's okay like and that's okay like one of my favorite restaurants here in one of my favorite restaurants here in one of my favorite restaurants here in town is a super high-end mexican town is a super high-end mexican town is a super high-end mexican restaurant restaurant restaurant but they use the exact same ingredients but they use the exact same ingredients but they use the exact same ingredients as like the taco john's down the street as like the taco john's down the street as like the taco john's down the street right beef chicken pork right beef chicken pork right beef chicken pork and and and some variation of like tortilla in there some variation of like tortilla in there some variation of like tortilla in there churches are the exact same like we all churches are the exact same like we all churches are the exact same like we all use the same ingredients use the same ingredients use the same ingredients but what is the outcome that you're but what is the outcome that you're but what is the outcome that you're providing the person when they come to providing the person when they come to providing the person when they come to your church your church your church specific process specific process specific process is how you deliver that outcome to your is how you deliver that outcome to your is how you deliver that outcome to your person person person so so so this is going to be your experience you this is going to be your experience you this is going to be your experience you know there's uh what are they what are know there's uh what are they what are know there's uh what are they what are they calling them now experience

they calling them now experience they calling them now experience directors or like directors or like directors or like exp or executive pastors will deal with exp or executive pastors will deal with exp or executive pastors will deal with this this this um worship sometimes takes um worship sometimes takes um worship sometimes takes responsibility for that but what's the responsibility for that but what's the responsibility for that but what's the process by which you deliver the outcome process by which you deliver the outcome process by which you deliver the outcome to your person and then product to your person and then product to your person and then product and sometimes folks in the faith-based and sometimes folks in the faith-based and sometimes folks in the faith-based communities don't like this word but the communities don't like this word but the communities don't like this word but the reality is you have a product you reality is you have a product you reality is you have a product you deliver something for many churches deliver something for many churches deliver something for many churches that's going to be the weekend that's going to be the weekend that's going to be the weekend experience experience experience that's the vehicle that's the vehicle that's the vehicle you deliver you deliver you deliver you you use to deliver the process to you you use to deliver the process to you you use to deliver the process to your person to achieve the outcome your person to achieve the outcome your person to achieve the outcome so i did that very quickly so i did that very quickly so i did that very quickly uh but like anybody can use that uh but like anybody can use that uh but like anybody can use that framework and start filling it out and i framework and start filling it out and i framework and start filling it out and i know know know like when we start working like when we start working like when we start working with businesses and we want to plan out with businesses and we want to plan out with businesses and we want to plan out their blueprint their blueprint their blueprint if we don't we don't do anything until if we don't we don't do anything until if we don't we don't do anything until we get off those four we get off those four we get off those four do we get answers for those four do we get answers for those four do we get answers for those four questions questions questions because it's just a waste of time it's because it's just a waste of time it's because it's just a waste of time it's wasted everybody's time and money if wasted everybody's time and money if wasted everybody's time and money if you're justin you said you said you've you're justin you said you said you've you're justin you said you said you've written on that is that like blog written on that is that like blog written on that is that like blog content are you writing a book where content are you writing a book where content are you writing a book where where can we find that content where can we find that content where can we find that content um i am writing about i think i did a um i am writing about i think i did a um i am writing about i think i did a thread about it a while ago but the thread about it a while ago but the thread about it a while ago but the reason why it's on my mind is because reason why it's on my mind is because reason why it's on my mind is because i'm writing i'm writing i'm writing um for my newsletter uh i think it's um for my newsletter uh i think it's um for my newsletter uh i think it's coming out in two or three weeks so coming out in two or three weeks so coming out in two or three weeks so we're recording this obviously uh by the we're recording this obviously uh by the we're recording this obviously uh by the time it comes out i don't know if it'll time it comes out i don't know if it'll time it comes out i don't know if it'll be published by then but folks can be published by then but folks can be published by then but folks can always check it out justinwise.net always check it out justinwise.net always check it out justinwise.net um um um it it it may or may not be posted yet i don't may or may not be posted yet i don't may or may not be posted yet i don't know know know if it if it is we'll make sure that we

if it if it is we'll make sure that we if it if it is we'll make sure that we link to it in our show notes and if it's link to it in our show notes and if it's link to it in our show notes and if it's not well we'll link to it in the show not well we'll link to it in the show not well we'll link to it in the show notes later on so notes later on so notes later on so cool you know one of those things i i cool you know one of those things i i cool you know one of those things i i really really appreciate that a lot of really really appreciate that a lot of really really appreciate that a lot of our listeners are like church our listeners are like church our listeners are like church communications or there's xps and lead communications or there's xps and lead communications or there's xps and lead pastors who who tune in but you know a pastors who who tune in but you know a pastors who who tune in but you know a lot of communications people which i lot of communications people which i lot of communications people which i know know know inc having conversations with them inc having conversations with them inc having conversations with them they're you know they're they're you know they're they're you know they're they're killing themselves every week they're killing themselves every week they're killing themselves every week trying to get their message out and trying to get their message out and trying to get their message out and they're just taking cues from leadership they're just taking cues from leadership they're just taking cues from leadership on this is what we on this is what we on this is what we you know and then you might have a brand you know and then you might have a brand you know and then you might have a brand like we stay within brand but they don't like we stay within brand but they don't like we stay within brand but they don't even really know what that means right even really know what that means right even really know what that means right so i think it's really it's one of those so i think it's really it's one of those so i think it's really it's one of those things where i think we can help equip things where i think we can help equip things where i think we can help equip communications team members on those communications team members on those communications team members on those questions to ask do you have are you questions to ask do you have are you questions to ask do you have are you are you if you can't answer those are you if you can't answer those are you if you can't answer those questions questions questions go to your leadership and say can we go to your leadership and say can we go to your leadership and say can we answer these questions because you're answer these questions because you're answer these questions because you're right the right the right the you know you know you know uh when builds send okay uh when builds send okay uh when builds send okay great great great but that doesn't help us understand who but that doesn't help us understand who but that doesn't help us understand who we're trying to target in all of our we're trying to target in all of our we're trying to target in all of our messaging and our ministries and messaging and our ministries and messaging and our ministries and everything just fits in with that target everything just fits in with that target everything just fits in with that target audience audience audience um and so there seems like there's a lot um and so there seems like there's a lot um and so there seems like there's a lot of work to do of work to do of work to do for churches that have to figure that for churches that have to figure that for churches that have to figure that out out out if there's someone here i want to speak if there's someone here i want to speak if there's someone here i want to speak these nudges come occasionally these nudges come occasionally these nudges come occasionally and i've learned to just go with them and i've learned to just go with them and i've learned to just go with them there's going to be somebody here there's going to be somebody here there's going to be somebody here listening to this episode who's in a listening to this episode who's in a listening to this episode who's in a communications director or whatever type communications director or whatever type communications director or whatever type role role role and they're going to be like man you are and they're going to be like man you are and they're going to be like man you are preaching my language i've been trying preaching my language i've been trying preaching my language i've been trying to say this uh to say this uh to say this uh i i i i so i so i so agree with you however i am

agree with you however i am agree with you however i am up against leadership that up against leadership that up against leadership that is either confrontational is either confrontational is either confrontational or or or uh dismissive uh dismissive uh dismissive or frankly you know in my case or frankly you know in my case or frankly you know in my case in most cases they're just so busy in most cases they're just so busy in most cases they're just so busy they don't have time to think about that they don't have time to think about that they don't have time to think about that stuff stuff stuff so if that's you and you're in that so if that's you and you're in that so if that's you and you're in that communications role what i want to communications role what i want to communications role what i want to suggest to you is to start suggest to you is to start suggest to you is to start doing this work doing this work doing this work on your own on your own on your own uh start because if you hit if you have uh start because if you hit if you have uh start because if you hit if you have the access to those channels the access to those channels the access to those channels you can influence that message now what you can influence that message now what you can influence that message now what i'm not suggesting is to like completely i'm not suggesting is to like completely i'm not suggesting is to like completely go out in the left field go out in the left field go out in the left field and start posting whatever you want and start posting whatever you want and start posting whatever you want or you know crafting communications or you know crafting communications or you know crafting communications however you feel fit however you feel fit however you feel fit no what i am saying though is start no what i am saying though is start no what i am saying though is start asking those questions that we just went asking those questions that we just went asking those questions that we just went through and strategically through and strategically through and strategically uh start molding your communication uh start molding your communication uh start molding your communication strategy around those four answers strategy around those four answers strategy around those four answers i'll give you an example a pastor uh i'll give you an example a pastor uh i'll give you an example a pastor uh that i used to work that i used to work that i used to work we used to work with the senior pastor we used to work with the senior pastor we used to work with the senior pastor of the church i was at amazing guy we're of the church i was at amazing guy we're of the church i was at amazing guy we're friends to this day friends to this day friends to this day uh uh uh but when i first started doing this but when i first started doing this but when i first started doing this church communication work because that's church communication work because that's church communication work because that's what i did on my church what i did on my church what i did on my church he was not real receptive to it let's he was not real receptive to it let's he was not real receptive to it let's put it that way so so i just did it anyway i just did it anyway i just did it anyway and i didn't tell him and i didn't tell him and i didn't tell him now i wouldn't recommend that for now i wouldn't recommend that for now i wouldn't recommend that for everybody everybody everybody especially because he was my boss at the especially because he was my boss at the especially because he was my boss at the time time time uh but here's the kicker uh but here's the kicker uh but here's the kicker when he saw what i was doing and when he

when he saw what i was doing and when he when he saw what i was doing and when he saw how it advanced the mission of the saw how it advanced the mission of the saw how it advanced the mission of the church church church he was on board immediately he was on board immediately he was on board immediately so so so that's kind of the whole that's kind of the whole that's kind of the whole push behind this is most likely your push behind this is most likely your push behind this is most likely your church has some sort of mission vision church has some sort of mission vision church has some sort of mission vision values whatever values whatever values whatever the more you can tie into your million the more you can tie into your million the more you can tie into your million dollar marketing plan into what already dollar marketing plan into what already dollar marketing plan into what already exists exists exists and then demonstrate how it's achieving and then demonstrate how it's achieving and then demonstrate how it's achieving those things those things those things that's why i say to you like that's why i say to you like that's why i say to you like be uh be uh be uh i call it civil disobedience right so sometimes you just have to disobey for sometimes you just have to disobey for the the the for for for for what's best in your organization for what's best in your organization for what's best in your organization um so i don't know why that came to mind um so i don't know why that came to mind um so i don't know why that came to mind but if it helps someone out there we but if it helps someone out there we but if it helps someone out there we need to put a disclaimer on this podcast need to put a disclaimer on this podcast need to put a disclaimer on this podcast episode in case anyone loses their job i episode in case anyone loses their job i episode in case anyone loses their job i just did what justin bart and jason told just did what justin bart and jason told just did what justin bart and jason told me to do me to do me to do no no no that's good that's good that's good you know i i'm i agree with you um my you know i i'm i agree with you um my you know i i'm i agree with you um my first thought was you're gonna say is first thought was you're gonna say is first thought was you're gonna say is quit don't quit your job don't quit your quit don't quit your job don't quit your quit don't quit your job don't quit your job job job try and actually do that you know i try and actually do that you know i try and actually do that you know i think i think sometimes you have to you think i think sometimes you have to you think i think sometimes you have to you have to you're the communication have to you're the communication have to you're the communication director yeah um in a sense director yeah um in a sense director yeah um in a sense the church has hired you to be the the church has hired you to be the the church has hired you to be the expert on this now your lead pastor is expert on this now your lead pastor is expert on this now your lead pastor is very very good at communicating should very very good at communicating should very very good at communicating should be because they're you know they're be because they're you know they're be because they're you know they're preaching and that kind of thing but preaching and that kind of thing but preaching and that kind of thing but there are some impacts you can make in there are some impacts you can make in there are some impacts you can make in terms of language and things you're terms of language and things you're terms of language and things you're saying for example if you're going if saying for example if you're going if saying for example if you're going if you feel like if we could just target

you feel like if we could just target you feel like if we could just target 35 year old 35 year old 35 year old andy who's a who's a dad and a husband andy who's a who's a dad and a husband andy who's a who's a dad and a husband but does it kind of go to church but but does it kind of go to church but but does it kind of go to church but doesn't really you know he'd rather go doesn't really you know he'd rather go doesn't really you know he'd rather go play golf kind of a thing then maybe play golf kind of a thing then maybe play golf kind of a thing then maybe your messaging could target him to get your messaging could target him to get your messaging could target him to get him to engage and be the hero of his him to engage and be the hero of his him to engage and be the hero of his family and come to church this weekend family and come to church this weekend family and come to church this weekend and see what kind of response you get and see what kind of response you get and see what kind of response you get right right right uh you could try that stuff you know and uh you could try that stuff you know and uh you could try that stuff you know and why not and and see where it goes and why not and and see where it goes and why not and and see where it goes and but you got to figure that stuff out now but you got to figure that stuff out now but you got to figure that stuff out now if you wait if you wait if you wait for permission to do that for permission to do that for permission to do that might be might be a long day for you might be might be a long day for you might be might be a long day for you yeah don't don't wait for permission but yeah don't don't wait for permission but yeah don't don't wait for permission but also don't uh also don't uh also don't uh you know you know you know don't don't don't you don't want to get yourself in a you don't want to get yourself in a you don't want to get yourself in a position where position where position where you are you are you are flagrantly flagrantly flagrantly violating violating violating um the established rules yeah of you of um the established rules yeah of you of um the established rules yeah of you of your church for us it was easy because your church for us it was easy because your church for us it was easy because we didn't have any rules around that yet we didn't have any rules around that yet we didn't have any rules around that yet we didn't have any established we didn't have any established we didn't have any established guidelines yet this was back in 20 guidelines yet this was back in 20 guidelines yet this was back in 20 this is back in 2006. this is back in 2006. this is back in 2006. so so so there's nothing back then yeah um so so there's nothing back then yeah um so so there's nothing back then yeah um so so now now now yeah i'm certainly not suggesting that yeah i'm certainly not suggesting that yeah i'm certainly not suggesting that you you you you you you you you you you get yourself in hot water but you you get yourself in hot water but you you get yourself in hot water but you will need to push it will need to push it will need to push it it's a steward it's a stewardship right it's a steward it's a stewardship right it's a steward it's a stewardship right you as the communications director are you as the communications director are you as the communications director are given a space a lane given a space a lane given a space a lane and a responsibility and a responsibility and a responsibility and you need sometimes you do have to and you need sometimes you do have to and you need sometimes you do have to take some risks and push the boundaries take some risks and push the boundaries take some risks and push the boundaries but you need to do those in a way in but you need to do those in a way in but you need to do those in a way in which you're building more trust rather

which you're building more trust rather which you're building more trust rather than breaking the trust down that your than breaking the trust down that your than breaking the trust down that your leaders have so leaders have so leaders have so calculated risks um calculated risks um calculated risks um you know strategic risks you know strategic risks you know strategic risks uh tactical patience in everything you uh tactical patience in everything you uh tactical patience in everything you know you don't just start throwing stuff know you don't just start throwing stuff know you don't just start throwing stuff at the wall hoping that something sticks at the wall hoping that something sticks at the wall hoping that something sticks that's one of the things that you know that's one of the things that you know that's one of the things that you know jason and i and the coaches that we get jason and i and the coaches that we get jason and i and the coaches that we get to lead on our team we love to sit with to lead on our team we love to sit with to lead on our team we love to sit with communications directors and help them communications directors and help them communications directors and help them strategize and think through what strategize and think through what strategize and think through what they're doing and how they're doing it they're doing and how they're doing it they're doing and how they're doing it we bring a perspective that they don't we bring a perspective that they don't we bring a perspective that they don't necessarily always have because we're necessarily always have because we're necessarily always have because we're not a part of their church and we don't not a part of their church and we don't not a part of their church and we don't see everything that goes on inside see everything that goes on inside see everything that goes on inside but we all have experience in church so but we all have experience in church so but we all have experience in church so we know big picture how churches operate we know big picture how churches operate we know big picture how churches operate and how and how and how senior pastors think and how the rest of senior pastors think and how the rest of senior pastors think and how the rest of the staff is is vying for their space the staff is is vying for their space the staff is is vying for their space and their time in the communications and their time in the communications and their time in the communications lanes lanes lanes and so yeah i think there's some really and so yeah i think there's some really and so yeah i think there's some really really good advice in there justin really good advice in there justin really good advice in there justin leading up is really really complicated leading up is really really complicated leading up is really really complicated um um um but again as the expert in the area of but again as the expert in the area of but again as the expert in the area of communication as jason pointed out um communication as jason pointed out um communication as jason pointed out um you've got the responsibility of being you've got the responsibility of being you've got the responsibility of being the one who actually leads in that area the one who actually leads in that area the one who actually leads in that area you don't lead the whole church in all you don't lead the whole church in all you don't lead the whole church in all likelihood but you lead in that area and likelihood but you lead in that area and likelihood but you lead in that area and you can earn more trust by demonstrating you can earn more trust by demonstrating you can earn more trust by demonstrating that you're good and you're faithful and that you're good and you're faithful and that you're good and you're faithful and you're trustworthy with the the trust you're trustworthy with the the trust you're trustworthy with the the trust you've been given you've been given you've been given what what is a uh what what is a uh what what is a uh so i think the takeaway so i think the takeaway so i think the takeaway uh for some people not everybody because uh for some people not everybody because uh for some people not everybody because some people might have this right on cue some people might have this right on cue some people might have this right on cue but but but if they if they're if they're sort of if they if they're if they're sort of if they if they're if they're sort of lost and they're just it's like every we

lost and they're just it's like every we lost and they're just it's like every we just you know the church goes through just you know the church goes through just you know the church goes through the season after season for season um the season after season for season um the season after season for season um we're coming out of covent so there's a we're coming out of covent so there's a we're coming out of covent so there's a there's a i think there's kind of some there's a i think there's kind of some there's a i think there's kind of some excitement because i think churches are excitement because i think churches are excitement because i think churches are experiencing some growth experiencing some growth experiencing some growth which is amazing and i i see that growth which is amazing and i i see that growth which is amazing and i i see that growth it's not necessarily christians hopping it's not necessarily christians hopping it's not necessarily christians hopping because at because at because at our church we just had a a baptism our church we just had a a baptism our church we just had a a baptism weekend where they all almost 200 people weekend where they all almost 200 people weekend where they all almost 200 people were baptized were baptized were baptized so we're seeing some some growth which so we're seeing some some growth which so we're seeing some some growth which is really really cool is really really cool is really really cool uh what's your what's your advice to uh what's your what's your advice to uh what's your what's your advice to um that person that is stuck other than um that person that is stuck other than um that person that is stuck other than just try some i mean how do they even just try some i mean how do they even just try some i mean how do they even how do they even begin to understand who how do they even begin to understand who how do they even begin to understand who their target audience is so if this were a business i would ask so if this were a business i would ask who pays you the most the easiest that's not a question that i would that's not a question that i would necessarily want to ask at a church necessarily want to ask at a church necessarily want to ask at a church though for obvious reasons though for obvious reasons though for obvious reasons um um um so you know i don't really see that in so you know i don't really see that in so you know i don't really see that in the pages of the new testament i don't the pages of the new testament i don't the pages of the new testament i don't see the disciples looking around saying see the disciples looking around saying see the disciples looking around saying who gave us the most donations the last who gave us the most donations the last who gave us the most donations the last month oh let's go serve them month oh let's go serve them month oh let's go serve them no no no uh but you do have to start somewhere uh but you do have to start somewhere uh but you do have to start somewhere right you have to start somewhere right you have to start somewhere right you have to start somewhere and and and what i would suggest is like well what i would suggest is like well what i would suggest is like well there's a couple ways you could do it i there's a couple ways you could do it i there's a couple ways you could do it i won't get into the tactics because won't get into the tactics because won't get into the tactics because there's a couple different ways to you there's a couple different ways to you there's a couple different ways to you can actually can actually can actually tactically do this but big picture i tactically do this but big picture i tactically do this but big picture i think think think you need to find out okay where is their you need to find out okay where is their you need to find out okay where is their movement where is the most momentum movement where is the most momentum movement where is the most momentum in our church right now

in our church right now in our church right now what's working and what's working really what's working and what's working really what's working and what's working really well well well and conversely what's working not so and conversely what's working not so and conversely what's working not so well well well and the the and the the and the the the um the measurements for that are the um the measurements for that are the um the measurements for that are going to be totally up to you they're going to be totally up to you they're going to be totally up to you they're subjective subjective subjective but the gist of the question is what's but the gist of the question is what's but the gist of the question is what's working and what's working really well working and what's working really well working and what's working really well and i always like to answer on the tail and i always like to answer on the tail and i always like to answer on the tail end of that as i mentioned what's not end of that as i mentioned what's not end of that as i mentioned what's not working so well working so well working so well then you can start to see okay then you can start to see okay then you can start to see okay i'll give you an example there's a i'll give you an example there's a i'll give you an example there's a church i worked with way back in the day church i worked with way back in the day church i worked with way back in the day and they saw and they saw and they saw that that that man our vbs is just crushing man our vbs is just crushing man our vbs is just crushing we don't know how we don't know why we don't know how we don't know why we don't know how we don't know why but all these kids just like show up but all these kids just like show up but all these kids just like show up and we know we don't have this many kids and we know we don't have this many kids and we know we don't have this many kids at our church so at our church so at our church so so they're like these kids are or their so they're like these kids are or their so they're like these kids are or their parents they're inviting other you know parents they're inviting other you know parents they're inviting other you know neighborhood kids to the church uh for neighborhood kids to the church uh for neighborhood kids to the church uh for vbs and what we also know is that when vbs and what we also know is that when vbs and what we also know is that when we get let's just call it a hundred we get let's just call it a hundred we get let's just call it a hundred kids new kids to vbs that kids new kids to vbs that kids new kids to vbs that contributes to an uptick in uh attended contributes to an uptick in uh attended contributes to an uptick in uh attended you know church attendance by like let's you know church attendance by like let's you know church attendance by like let's just call it ten percent i don't just call it ten percent i don't just call it ten percent i don't remember the real numbers but let's just remember the real numbers but let's just remember the real numbers but let's just call it that so what they saw was like call it that so what they saw was like call it that so what they saw was like the more kids that come to vbs the more kids that come to vbs the more kids that come to vbs at least in our church at least in our church at least in our church the more the more the more members and we're not talking about just members and we're not talking about just members and we're not talking about just attendance we're talking about members attendance we're talking about members attendance we're talking about members uh the more members we seem to get at uh the more members we seem to get at uh the more members we seem to get at our next go around for new member class our next go around for new member class our next go around for new member class that's a really important connection that's a really important connection that's a really important connection so what's working really well

so what's working really well so what's working really well vbs is killing it so what they ended up vbs is killing it so what they ended up vbs is killing it so what they ended up doing was resourcing vbs more doing was resourcing vbs more doing was resourcing vbs more what was not working so well and these what was not working so well and these what was not working so well and these are tough conversations these are not are tough conversations these are not are tough conversations these are not easy conversations easy conversations easy conversations what was not working so well was men's what was not working so well was men's what was not working so well was men's ministry ministry ministry uh there was a beloved figure let's just uh there was a beloved figure let's just uh there was a beloved figure let's just call it that call it that call it that leading the men's ministry and because leading the men's ministry and because leading the men's ministry and because of that belovedness a lot of resources of that belovedness a lot of resources of that belovedness a lot of resources went to that went to that went to that to that ministry to that ministry to that ministry but they could see pretty clearly but they could see pretty clearly but they could see pretty clearly through attendance of events through uh through attendance of events through uh through attendance of events through uh you know you know you know retaining retaining retaining i guess excitement i guess excitement i guess excitement uh and most importantly the contribution uh and most importantly the contribution uh and most importantly the contribution at least for this church the at least for this church the at least for this church the contribution it made contribution it made contribution it made to to to weekend attendance was weekend attendance was weekend attendance was insignificant had no impact virtually insignificant had no impact virtually insignificant had no impact virtually none none none um um um and so and so and so through tough conversations they said through tough conversations they said through tough conversations they said okay we are going to we are going to okay we are going to we are going to okay we are going to we are going to keep resources of men's ministry the keep resources of men's ministry the keep resources of men's ministry the same same same which in effect means you know which in effect means you know which in effect means you know they were getting less because budgets they were getting less because budgets they were getting less because budgets always go up yeah so always go up yeah so always go up yeah so so having those tough conversations but so having those tough conversations but so having those tough conversations but let me tell you why it's important from let me tell you why it's important from let me tell you why it's important from a communication standpoint because a communication standpoint because a communication standpoint because communications is resource communications is resource communications is resource so table tense real practically like so table tense real practically like so table tense real practically like table tents are resources so what does table tents are resources so what does table tents are resources so what does that mean well vbs gets more table tents that mean well vbs gets more table tents that mean well vbs gets more table tents uh you know out in the coffee shop uh you know out in the coffee shop uh you know out in the coffee shop men's ministry gets fewer men's ministry gets fewer men's ministry gets fewer table tents table tents table tents vds gets more vds gets more vds gets more mainstage time on weekend announcements

mainstage time on weekend announcements mainstage time on weekend announcements men's ministry gets fewer men's ministry gets fewer men's ministry gets fewer weekend announcements weekend announcements weekend announcements so it's not just dollars and cents it's so it's not just dollars and cents it's so it's not just dollars and cents it's also communications also communications also communications everything from bulletin placement to everything from bulletin placement to everything from bulletin placement to newsletter placement to newsletter placement to newsletter placement to how we talk about what we're talking how we talk about what we're talking how we talk about what we're talking about about about and so really looking at what's our and so really looking at what's our and so really looking at what's our mission which are what's our vision mission which are what's our vision mission which are what's our vision what's our values what's our values what's our values what ministries what ministries what ministries have the most impact on that and then have the most impact on that and then have the most impact on that and then doing a doing a doing a an audit of how those resources are an audit of how those resources are an audit of how those resources are are going to these ministries from a are going to these ministries from a are going to these ministries from a communications perspective communications perspective communications perspective well that's that's great advice well that's that's great advice well that's that's great advice because you want to be on a winning team because you want to be on a winning team because you want to be on a winning team and so keep going with what's working in and so keep going with what's working in and so keep going with what's working in your church your church your church yeah so you just have to and by the way yeah so you just have to and by the way yeah so you just have to and by the way like we see this in the in the new like we see this in the in the new like we see this in the in the new testament we see testament we see testament we see the disciples after jesus the disciples after jesus the disciples after jesus ascends basically discerning ascends basically discerning ascends basically discerning what resources are going to go where what resources are going to go where what resources are going to go where yeah yeah yeah how do we divvy up how do we divvy up how do we divvy up the limited amount of resources we have the limited amount of resources we have the limited amount of resources we have so much so that like they got in fights so much so that like they got in fights so much so that like they got in fights about and i don't want to sit around and about and i don't want to sit around and about and i don't want to sit around and wait tables wait tables wait tables and uh serve widows and uh serve widows and uh serve widows and these these widows are complaining and these these widows are complaining and these these widows are complaining that they don't get the same amount of that they don't get the same amount of that they don't get the same amount of food as these folks over here so this is food as these folks over here so this is food as these folks over here so this is a tale as old as time and what happens did they did they and what happens did they did they disband no they had tough conversations disband no they had tough conversations disband no they had tough conversations to the point where peter and paul were to the point where peter and paul were to the point where peter and paul were like hey like hey like hey love you see you in glory but i'm out love you see you in glory but i'm out love you see you in glory but i'm out we're not talking anymore

we're not talking anymore we're not talking anymore um um um so so hopefully that doesn't happen but so so hopefully that doesn't happen but so so hopefully that doesn't happen but the point is having those tough the point is having those tough the point is having those tough conversations conversations conversations and allocating resources based on impact and allocating resources based on impact and allocating resources based on impact of the mission vision values of the mission vision values of the mission vision values so important but it's difficult which is so important but it's difficult which is so important but it's difficult which is why it really happens justin this has been a great justin this has been a great conversation um conversation um conversation um and i'm looking at the clock and i'm and i'm looking at the clock and i'm and i'm looking at the clock and i'm realizing that we're really coming close realizing that we're really coming close realizing that we're really coming close to the end of our time and the truth is to the end of our time and the truth is to the end of our time and the truth is we haven't even really cracked the we haven't even really cracked the we haven't even really cracked the surface on what jason and i really surface on what jason and i really surface on what jason and i really wanted to talk to you about today so um wanted to talk to you about today so um wanted to talk to you about today so um i think it's probably best for us to i think it's probably best for us to i think it's probably best for us to maybe kind of land the plane here with maybe kind of land the plane here with maybe kind of land the plane here with this conversation today and then offline this conversation today and then offline this conversation today and then offline we will beg you to see if we can get you we will beg you to see if we can get you we will beg you to see if we can get you back on later this season and have the back on later this season and have the back on later this season and have the conversation that we really wanted to conversation that we really wanted to conversation that we really wanted to have today but it's been great to get to have today but it's been great to get to have today but it's been great to get to know you um and just to hear your heart know you um and just to hear your heart know you um and just to hear your heart and to hear some of these very very and to hear some of these very very and to hear some of these very very practical things um i know that you in practical things um i know that you in practical things um i know that you in on one level you're kind of saying i'm a on one level you're kind of saying i'm a on one level you're kind of saying i'm a big picture at a lot of this but even big picture at a lot of this but even big picture at a lot of this but even your big picture is a lot more practical your big picture is a lot more practical your big picture is a lot more practical and tactical than what a lot of people and tactical than what a lot of people and tactical than what a lot of people are able to extrapolate so i really are able to extrapolate so i really are able to extrapolate so i really appreciate that jason is there anything appreciate that jason is there anything appreciate that jason is there anything that you would like to add or ask justin that you would like to add or ask justin that you would like to add or ask justin before we wrap the show up today no i i before we wrap the show up today no i i before we wrap the show up today no i i i but i i am excited for that newsletter i but i i am excited for that newsletter i but i i am excited for that newsletter to come out so that we can put that in to come out so that we can put that in to come out so that we can put that in the show notes because i think there the show notes because i think there the show notes because i think there that there are some nuggets i think that there are some nuggets i think that there are some nuggets i think church we need to take from what church we need to take from what church we need to take from what you know leaders like justin are doing you know leaders like justin are doing you know leaders like justin are doing he's he's a guy who's served in the he's he's a guy who's served in the he's he's a guy who's served in the church and now he's serving in the church and now he's serving in the church and now he's serving in the the marketplace and he's in some of

the marketplace and he's in some of the marketplace and he's in some of those same practice those those same those same practice those those same those same practice those those same skill sets skill sets skill sets they carry over they carry over they carry over so so so don't ignore that uh grab it and and don't ignore that uh grab it and and don't ignore that uh grab it and and after you know tweak it to your system after you know tweak it to your system after you know tweak it to your system and your the way you do things but and your the way you do things but and your the way you do things but that's what i would i would do um so that's what i would i would do um so that's what i would i would do um so i look forward to maybe a continued i look forward to maybe a continued i look forward to maybe a continued conversation about some other conversation about some other conversation about some other deeper topic some of the tactical stuff deeper topic some of the tactical stuff deeper topic some of the tactical stuff that i'd love to to pick your brain on that i'd love to to pick your brain on that i'd love to to pick your brain on happy to help happy to help happy to help justin any partying thoughts or parting justin any partying thoughts or parting justin any partying thoughts or parting shots for our audience our listeners shots for our audience our listeners shots for our audience our listeners yeah i mean if you enjoyed the yeah i mean if you enjoyed the yeah i mean if you enjoyed the conversation i would love to have you on conversation i would love to have you on conversation i would love to have you on our newsletter justinwise.net it's our newsletter justinwise.net it's our newsletter justinwise.net it's totally free comes out once a week on totally free comes out once a week on totally free comes out once a week on fridays fridays fridays and we put forth what i think is really and we put forth what i think is really and we put forth what i think is really practical straightforward practical straightforward practical straightforward um um um advice to advice to advice to grow your impact through grow your impact through grow your impact through attention grabbing marketing attention grabbing marketing attention grabbing marketing so church leaders may have to do a so church leaders may have to do a so church leaders may have to do a little bit of uh little bit of uh little bit of uh you know translation but it could you know translation but it could you know translation but it could totally work for anyone listening to totally work for anyone listening to totally work for anyone listening to this so you can sign up justinwise.net this so you can sign up justinwise.net this so you can sign up justinwise.net it's right there on the front page we'd it's right there on the front page we'd it's right there on the front page we'd love to have you guys on board love to have you guys on board love to have you guys on board cool awesome thank you cool awesome thank you cool awesome thank you appreciate it thanks so much for joining appreciate it thanks so much for joining appreciate it thanks so much for joining us today you bet gang talk soon