Stop Wasting Your Church's Money | Jason and Bart

[Music] [Music] If you can't measure it, you probably If you can't measure it, you probably If you can't measure it, you probably shouldn't spend money on it. You really shouldn't spend money on it. You really shouldn't spend money on it. You really need to be able to quantify the need to be able to quantify the need to be able to quantify the effectiveness of your marketing effectiveness of your marketing effectiveness of your marketing campaigns, which is one of the reasons campaigns, which is one of the reasons campaigns, which is one of the reasons that digital is digital is probably that digital is digital is probably that digital is digital is probably supreme to all of those things. So, if supreme to all of those things. So, if supreme to all of those things. So, if you can't measure it, you probably you can't measure it, you probably you can't measure it, you probably shouldn't spend money on it when it shouldn't spend money on it when it shouldn't spend money on it when it comes to digital marketing and outreach. comes to digital marketing and outreach. comes to digital marketing and outreach. This is the Missional Marketing Podcast. This is the Missional Marketing Podcast. This is the Missional Marketing Podcast. I'm Bart Blair joined by the CEO of I'm Bart Blair joined by the CEO of I'm Bart Blair joined by the CEO of Mission Marketing, Mr. Jason Hemrock. Mission Marketing, Mr. Jason Hemrock. Mission Marketing, Mr. Jason Hemrock. Good day to you, Jason. Good day, Bart. Good day to you, Jason. Good day, Bart. Good day to you, Jason. Good day, Bart. How are you today? I am doing very well. How are you today? I am doing very well. How are you today? I am doing very well. I'm excited to be doing this podcast I'm excited to be doing this podcast I'm excited to be doing this podcast episode with you today. We've been doing episode with you today. We've been doing episode with you today. We've been doing them a little more frequently as of them a little more frequently as of them a little more frequently as of late, but maybe not as frequently as we late, but maybe not as frequently as we late, but maybe not as frequently as we like to. So, I always enjoy enjoy like to. So, I always enjoy enjoy like to. So, I always enjoy enjoy hanging out with you and having the hanging out with you and having the hanging out with you and having the conversations that we do. Um, we have conversations that we do. Um, we have conversations that we do. Um, we have surpassed the 5-year mark of this surpassed the 5-year mark of this surpassed the 5-year mark of this podcast. Can you believe it? We started podcast. Can you believe it? We started podcast. Can you believe it? We started this podcast in like in April, May of this podcast in like in April, May of this podcast in like in April, May of 2020, 2020. And it's 2025. So we're at 2020, 2020. And it's 2025. So we're at 2020, 2020. And it's 2025. So we're at the time we're recording this June of the time we're recording this June of the time we're recording this June of 2025. We've been doing this podcast for 2025. We've been doing this podcast for 2025. We've been doing this podcast for five years. Crazy to think about now. I five years. Crazy to think about now. I five years. Crazy to think about now. I wasn't on I wasn't on a lot of the first wasn't on I wasn't on a lot of the first wasn't on I wasn't on a lot of the first season with you. A lot of the first season with you. A lot of the first season with you. A lot of the first season you did on your own and then um season you did on your own and then um season you did on your own and then um somehow I got drugged into doing this, somehow I got drugged into doing this, somehow I got drugged into doing this, but it's do this on my own. Uh it has but it's do this on my own. Uh it has but it's do this on my own. Uh it has been it has been a lot of fun. Uh for been it has been a lot of fun. Uh for been it has been a lot of fun. Uh for those of you who are listening maybe for those of you who are listening maybe for those of you who are listening maybe for the first time, uh we produced this the first time, uh we produced this the first time, uh we produced this podcast because we want to help churches podcast because we want to help churches podcast because we want to help churches better leverage digital marketing and better leverage digital marketing and better leverage digital marketing and communications to see your church grow.

communications to see your church grow. communications to see your church grow. We want to see your church grow, reach We want to see your church grow, reach We want to see your church grow, reach more people for Jesus. And uh that's more people for Jesus. And uh that's more people for Jesus. And uh that's really important for us. That's the really important for us. That's the really important for us. That's the heartbeat of who we are as individuals. heartbeat of who we are as individuals. heartbeat of who we are as individuals. It's what we are. It's the heartbeat of It's what we are. It's the heartbeat of It's what we are. It's the heartbeat of our company is to help churches reach our company is to help churches reach our company is to help churches reach more people. We just spoke about that more people. We just spoke about that more people. We just spoke about that because we've got coaches that work with because we've got coaches that work with because we've got coaches that work with churches. And it is so powerful when we churches. And it is so powerful when we churches. And it is so powerful when we can sink into your culture in the can sink into your culture in the can sink into your culture in the church. And we we actually we know a lot church. And we we actually we know a lot church. And we we actually we know a lot about church. So when we sink in, we can about church. So when we sink in, we can about church. So when we sink in, we can ask a lot of questions and just go there ask a lot of questions and just go there ask a lot of questions and just go there and work together on how do you improve and work together on how do you improve and work together on how do you improve everything and uh today's topic is going everything and uh today's topic is going everything and uh today's topic is going to dive into that. But that's that is so to dive into that. But that's that is so to dive into that. But that's that is so rewarding that we get to do that as a as rewarding that we get to do that as a as rewarding that we get to do that as a as a group. Yeah, absolutely. Now, if you a group. Yeah, absolutely. Now, if you a group. Yeah, absolutely. Now, if you haven't ever subscribed wherever you haven't ever subscribed wherever you haven't ever subscribed wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, make listen to your favorite podcast, make listen to your favorite podcast, make sure that you do that. Mostly because sure that you do that. Mostly because sure that you do that. Mostly because we've been a little inconsistent as of we've been a little inconsistent as of we've been a little inconsistent as of late uh with with dropping episodes. And late uh with with dropping episodes. And late uh with with dropping episodes. And if you subscribe, then you're going to if you subscribe, then you're going to if you subscribe, then you're going to get it when it comes out. We try to do get it when it comes out. We try to do get it when it comes out. We try to do one on drop every Friday, but we're kind one on drop every Friday, but we're kind one on drop every Friday, but we're kind of hit and miss lately just because of hit and miss lately just because of hit and miss lately just because we're spinning a lot of plates and doing we're spinning a lot of plates and doing we're spinning a lot of plates and doing a lot of things. However, it's not all a lot of things. However, it's not all a lot of things. However, it's not all your fault. However, I do want to plant your fault. However, I do want to plant your fault. However, I do want to plant the seed that we have an episode coming the seed that we have an episode coming the seed that we have an episode coming up in just a couple of weeks where we're up in just a couple of weeks where we're up in just a couple of weeks where we're going to be interviewing the senior going to be interviewing the senior going to be interviewing the senior developer at Missional Marketing, Mr.

developer at Missional Marketing, Mr. developer at Missional Marketing, Mr. Jason Collier. And we did an episode Jason Collier. And we did an episode Jason Collier. And we did an episode about a year or so ago with Jason on about a year or so ago with Jason on about a year or so ago with Jason on sort of SEO 101. We should link to that sort of SEO 101. We should link to that sort of SEO 101. We should link to that in the show notes because it was a in the show notes because it was a in the show notes because it was a really brilliant episode. Jason is really brilliant episode. Jason is really brilliant episode. Jason is actually going to jump into a actually going to jump into a actually going to jump into a conversation with us to talk about how conversation with us to talk about how conversation with us to talk about how AI is changing or not changing the AI is changing or not changing the AI is changing or not changing the search engine optimization landscape. search engine optimization landscape. search engine optimization landscape. This is a question that a lot of people This is a question that a lot of people This is a question that a lot of people have or it's a question that people have or it's a question that people have or it's a question that people aren't even thinking about and yet it is aren't even thinking about and yet it is aren't even thinking about and yet it is something that they need to be. They are something that they need to be. They are something that they need to be. They are right now. You just you just let the cat right now. You just you just let the cat right now. You just you just let the cat out of the bat. you're you be thinking out of the bat. you're you be thinking out of the bat. you're you be thinking about AI SEO, which and it's and it's about AI SEO, which and it's and it's about AI SEO, which and it's and it's really tricky because for every article really tricky because for every article really tricky because for every article that you might read that says AI is that you might read that says AI is that you might read that says AI is killing SEO, there are other articles killing SEO, there are other articles killing SEO, there are other articles that I find that say it's not quite that I find that say it's not quite that I find that say it's not quite there yet. There are some lessons that there yet. There are some lessons that there yet. There are some lessons that you need to learn and so we're going to you need to learn and so we're going to you need to learn and so we're going to bring Jason on because he probably the bring Jason on because he probably the bring Jason on because he probably the smartest guy on our team and at least in smartest guy on our team and at least in smartest guy on our team and at least in regards to those types of things and so regards to those types of things and so regards to those types of things and so it's going to be a really great it's going to be a really great it's going to be a really great conversation. So, make sure that you conversation. So, make sure that you conversation. So, make sure that you subscribe so that you don't miss any subscribe so that you don't miss any subscribe so that you don't miss any future episodes, especially the one that future episodes, especially the one that future episodes, especially the one that we have coming up with Mr. Also, uh, if we have coming up with Mr. Also, uh, if we have coming up with Mr. Also, uh, if you have a web master or somebody else you have a web master or somebody else you have a web master or somebody else who make sure you include them in who make sure you include them in who make sure you include them in listening on this podcast that Jason is listening on this podcast that Jason is listening on this podcast that Jason is going to be a part of. It is going to going to be a part of. It is going to going to be a part of. It is going to affect your church. It's not It's not affect your church. It's not It's not affect your church. It's not It's not if, it's just when. When is this going if, it's just when. When is this going if, it's just when. When is this going to start to really affect your church to start to really affect your church to start to really affect your church from an SEO perspective and traffic to from an SEO perspective and traffic to from an SEO perspective and traffic to your your website? Not if, because we your your website? Not if, because we your your website? Not if, because we know it's going to happen. Yeah, know it's going to happen. Yeah, know it's going to happen. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, another thing that is absolutely. Hey, another thing that is absolutely. Hey, another thing that is coming up on the horizon, uh, Jason, is

coming up on the horizon, uh, Jason, is coming up on the horizon, uh, Jason, is the church communications conference. the church communications conference. the church communications conference. Can you share a little bit with our Can you share a little bit with our Can you share a little bit with our audience about that? Because at the time audience about that? Because at the time audience about that? Because at the time that this is being released, you that this is being released, you that this is being released, you probably still have time to, uh, probably still have time to, uh, probably still have time to, uh, register and to make a plan to attend. register and to make a plan to attend. register and to make a plan to attend. So, why don't you give the details on So, why don't you give the details on So, why don't you give the details on that? Yeah, and uh, BL put a a code in that? Yeah, and uh, BL put a a code in that? Yeah, and uh, BL put a a code in there for uh, to give you some money there for uh, to give you some money there for uh, to give you some money off. Can I can I get Can I give him a off. Can I can I get Can I give him a off. Can I can I get Can I give him a discount code? You sure can. Okay. Look discount code? You sure can. Okay. Look discount code? You sure can. Okay. Look in the show. really pumped about. So in the show. really pumped about. So in the show. really pumped about. So September 17th, 18th, and 19th, 17th in September 17th, 18th, and 19th, 17th in September 17th, 18th, and 19th, 17th in the afternoon, all day 18th, and then the afternoon, all day 18th, and then the afternoon, all day 18th, and then September 19th in the morning in September 19th in the morning in September 19th in the morning in Chicago. Uh I'm really pumped about this Chicago. Uh I'm really pumped about this Chicago. Uh I'm really pumped about this is not a conference where you're going is not a conference where you're going is not a conference where you're going to walk away with a couple of nuggets. to walk away with a couple of nuggets. to walk away with a couple of nuggets. This is a working conference. You have a This is a working conference. You have a This is a working conference. You have a plan that you are already implementing plan that you are already implementing plan that you are already implementing at your church as a comm's director or at your church as a comm's director or at your church as a comm's director or part of the comm's team. What you're part of the comm's team. What you're part of the comm's team. What you're doing is is is as effective as you've doing is is is as effective as you've doing is is is as effective as you've got right now. You're going to come into got right now. You're going to come into got right now. You're going to come into the conference and we're going to the conference and we're going to the conference and we're going to challenge and we're going to talk about challenge and we're going to talk about challenge and we're going to talk about a lot of things. You're going to walk a lot of things. You're going to walk a lot of things. You're going to walk away asking lots of questions about our away asking lots of questions about our away asking lots of questions about our current methods and strategies and we're current methods and strategies and we're current methods and strategies and we're going to teach a lot about a funnel. A going to teach a lot about a funnel. A going to teach a lot about a funnel. A funnel of helping people become more funnel of helping people become more funnel of helping people become more aware of you. So awareness is going to aware of you. So awareness is going to aware of you. So awareness is going to be a major part of of the conference and be a major part of of the conference and be a major part of of the conference and and the working part of it. And then and the working part of it. And then and the working part of it. And then it's going to move to attendance. How it's going to move to attendance. How it's going to move to attendance. How are you helping people people move from are you helping people people move from are you helping people people move from awareness to attendance attending your awareness to attendance attending your awareness to attendance attending your church? Now, we know the the statistics church? Now, we know the the statistics church? Now, we know the the statistics and they've been a little bit goofy and they've been a little bit goofy and they've been a little bit goofy since since the pandemic, but what is it since since the pandemic, but what is it since since the pandemic, but what is it 1.6 1.7 times a month somebody attends 1.6 1.7 times a month somebody attends 1.6 1.7 times a month somebody attends your church. How do you move and how do your church. How do you move and how do your church. How do you move and how do you engage the people attending your

you engage the people attending your you engage the people attending your church? And then the final one is church? And then the final one is church? And then the final one is action. This is oh I get goosebumps when action. This is oh I get goosebumps when action. This is oh I get goosebumps when I think about this because a church I think about this because a church I think about this because a church exists for two well multiple reasons but exists for two well multiple reasons but exists for two well multiple reasons but two commandments that Jesus gave us and two commandments that Jesus gave us and two commandments that Jesus gave us and that is love one another. He said that that is love one another. He said that that is love one another. He said that if you want to be my disciple you'll if you want to be my disciple you'll if you want to be my disciple you'll love one another. The second one go make love one another. The second one go make love one another. The second one go make disciples. So the action part is how are disciples. So the action part is how are disciples. So the action part is how are we creating disciples followers of we creating disciples followers of we creating disciples followers of Jesus. And this conference is going to Jesus. And this conference is going to Jesus. And this conference is going to study all three of those areas and study all three of those areas and study all three of those areas and breaking them down. So, you're going to breaking them down. So, you're going to breaking them down. So, you're going to get tons of resources. You're going to get tons of resources. You're going to get tons of resources. You're going to get tons of education. And the probably get tons of education. And the probably get tons of education. And the probably the best thing you'll get out of there the best thing you'll get out of there the best thing you'll get out of there is connection, community, and so you're is connection, community, and so you're is connection, community, and so you're you're I'm just really pumped about this you're I'm just really pumped about this you're I'm just really pumped about this conference. We have totally redone it. conference. We have totally redone it. conference. We have totally redone it. I'm excited about it. Uh, a lot of I'm excited about it. Uh, a lot of I'm excited about it. Uh, a lot of people are signing up. It's in Chicago. people are signing up. It's in Chicago. people are signing up. It's in Chicago. It's in September. You got time to It's in September. You got time to It's in September. You got time to register for it. Bart will give you a register for it. Bart will give you a register for it. Bart will give you a discount code just because you're part discount code just because you're part discount code just because you're part of this podcast. But I tell you, it's of this podcast. But I tell you, it's of this podcast. But I tell you, it's going to be a game changer for a lot of going to be a game changer for a lot of going to be a game changer for a lot of lot of people. Yeah. You know, when we lot of people. Yeah. You know, when we lot of people. Yeah. You know, when we do our road shows and when we do the do our road shows and when we do the do our road shows and when we do the conference, the one piece of feedback conference, the one piece of feedback conference, the one piece of feedback that we always get that's like top tier that we always get that's like top tier that we always get that's like top tier is, I don't feel like I'm in this alone is, I don't feel like I'm in this alone is, I don't feel like I'm in this alone anymore. I've got a tribe. I've got a anymore. I've got a tribe. I've got a anymore. I've got a tribe. I've got a group of people. So, for, you know, the group of people. So, for, you know, the group of people. So, for, you know, the content is going to be great. Jason will content is going to be great. Jason will content is going to be great. Jason will be one of the keynote speakers. Uh Dr.

be one of the keynote speakers. Uh Dr. be one of the keynote speakers. Uh Dr. David Thorne from the AI for Churches David Thorne from the AI for Churches David Thorne from the AI for Churches team here as part of the mission team here as part of the mission team here as part of the mission marketing company. And then Mark marketing company. And then Mark marketing company. And then Mark McDonald from Be Known for Something, McDonald from Be Known for Something, McDonald from Be Known for Something, uh, who's also been a podcast, uh, uh, who's also been a podcast, uh, uh, who's also been a podcast, uh, podcast guest here with us a couple of podcast guest here with us a couple of podcast guest here with us a couple of times. and just really really brilliant times. and just really really brilliant times. and just really really brilliant uh church communicator and marketing guy uh church communicator and marketing guy uh church communicator and marketing guy will be one of our other uh keynote will be one of our other uh keynote will be one of our other uh keynote speakers. And then we have lots of speakers. And then we have lots of speakers. And then we have lots of workshops, lots of smaller group workshops, lots of smaller group workshops, lots of smaller group breakout sessions that you get to choose breakout sessions that you get to choose breakout sessions that you get to choose from uh to really enhance the skills and from uh to really enhance the skills and from uh to really enhance the skills and the knowledge base that you have on the the knowledge base that you have on the the knowledge base that you have on the areas that are going to be most areas that are going to be most areas that are going to be most important uh for you depending on where important uh for you depending on where important uh for you depending on where you're coming from and what the the you're coming from and what the the you're coming from and what the the demographic of your church and some demographic of your church and some demographic of your church and some surprises. So surprises are coming surprises. So surprises are coming surprises. So surprises are coming wrong. I'm not I'm going to say yeah I wrong. I'm not I'm going to say yeah I wrong. I'm not I'm going to say yeah I don't even I don't even know the don't even I don't even know the don't even I don't even know the surprises. I will be I will be surpris I surprises. I will be I will be surpris I surprises. I will be I will be surpris I will be surprised as well but I will be will be surprised as well but I will be will be surprised as well but I will be there and I will be leading some there and I will be leading some there and I will be leading some workshops and and look forward to workshops and and look forward to workshops and and look forward to meeting some of you. I will mention this meeting some of you. I will mention this meeting some of you. I will mention this as well um if you can't make the uh the as well um if you can't make the uh the as well um if you can't make the uh the conference in Chicago. We do have a few conference in Chicago. We do have a few conference in Chicago. We do have a few additional road shows that are coming up additional road shows that are coming up additional road shows that are coming up in the fall. I know we have San Antonio in the fall. I know we have San Antonio in the fall. I know we have San Antonio and we have Houston. Do you recall what and we have Houston. Do you recall what and we have Houston. Do you recall what the other ones are? I'm going to be over the other ones are? I'm going to be over the other ones are? I'm going to be over in LA as well. Okay. Los Angeles. And um in LA as well. Okay. Los Angeles. And um in LA as well. Okay. Los Angeles. And um before the conference in August, I'm before the conference in August, I'm before the conference in August, I'm going to be in Michigan and also in going to be in Michigan and also in going to be in Michigan and also in Ohio. Uh I think Detroit and I think Ohio. Uh I think Detroit and I think Ohio. Uh I think Detroit and I think Dayton Ohio Dayton, Ohio and and Dayton Ohio Dayton, Ohio and and Dayton Ohio Dayton, Ohio and and Detroit, Michigan. So yeah, I've got Detroit, Michigan. So yeah, I've got Detroit, Michigan. So yeah, I've got quite a few. And then next Well, this is quite a few. And then next Well, this is quite a few. And then next Well, this is we're going to be in Oklahoma City and we're going to be in Oklahoma City and we're going to be in Oklahoma City and Colorado Springs. Now, I did I we do we Colorado Springs. Now, I did I we do we Colorado Springs. Now, I did I we do we will be rolling out our 2026 will be rolling out our 2026 will be rolling out our 2026 road shows. There's going to be I think road shows. There's going to be I think road shows. There's going to be I think 16 cities we're coming to. So chances

16 cities we're coming to. So chances 16 cities we're coming to. So chances are we might be really near you if are we might be really near you if are we might be really near you if you're listening to this. uh as it has you're listening to this. uh as it has you're listening to this. uh as it has been released. We have probably already been released. We have probably already been released. We have probably already done Oklahoma City and Colorado Springs done Oklahoma City and Colorado Springs done Oklahoma City and Colorado Springs by the time this gets out. But uh check by the time this gets out. But uh check by the time this gets out. But uh check the church communications group website the church communications group website the church communications group website which is it's churchcommunications.com which is it's churchcommunications.com which is it's churchcommunications.com churchcommunications.com. Uh you can churchcommunications.com. Uh you can churchcommunications.com. Uh you can find uh the information about the find uh the information about the find uh the information about the conference as well as the road shows. If conference as well as the road shows. If conference as well as the road shows. If you're not in the church communications you're not in the church communications you're not in the church communications Facebook group, make sure that you join Facebook group, make sure that you join Facebook group, make sure that you join the church communications Facebook the church communications Facebook the church communications Facebook group. Just Google church communications group. Just Google church communications group. Just Google church communications in groups in Facebook and you'll find in groups in Facebook and you'll find in groups in Facebook and you'll find it. join that group and we're constantly it. join that group and we're constantly it. join that group and we're constantly reminding folks there of the reminding folks there of the reminding folks there of the opportunities that we have with that opportunities that we have with that opportunities that we have with that portion of our brand and our company. portion of our brand and our company. portion of our brand and our company. So, okay man, this has been an 8minute So, okay man, this has been an 8minute So, okay man, this has been an 8minute commercial. Let's stop with the commercial. Let's stop with the commercial. Let's stop with the commercializing and let's get on Well, commercializing and let's get on Well, commercializing and let's get on Well, we are a marketing company, so we're we are a marketing company, so we're we are a marketing company, so we're marketing the things that we're doing, marketing the things that we're doing, marketing the things that we're doing, but what we really want to focus in on but what we really want to focus in on but what we really want to focus in on on this particular conversation is on this particular conversation is on this particular conversation is church budgeting. Uh Jason, I I church budgeting. Uh Jason, I I church budgeting. Uh Jason, I I mentioned earlier before we started mentioned earlier before we started mentioned earlier before we started recording that we know we're in a season recording that we know we're in a season recording that we know we're in a season right now coming into the summer where right now coming into the summer where right now coming into the summer where churches are either if they're on a churches are either if they're on a churches are either if they're on a fiscal year. Sometimes they reset might fiscal year. Sometimes they reset might fiscal year. Sometimes they reset might be a little bit late for you if you're be a little bit late for you if you're be a little bit late for you if you're on a 25 26 fiscal year, but if you're on on a 25 26 fiscal year, but if you're on on a 25 26 fiscal year, but if you're on a calendar year budget and you're going a calendar year budget and you're going a calendar year budget and you're going to be budgeting in the late summer or to be budgeting in the late summer or to be budgeting in the late summer or the fall for your 26 2026 budget, there the fall for your 26 2026 budget, there the fall for your 26 2026 budget, there are some things that you might want to are some things that you might want to are some things that you might want to consider as you look at your marketing consider as you look at your marketing consider as you look at your marketing plan, your marketing strategy. And um plan, your marketing strategy. And um plan, your marketing strategy. And um this has come up for me a couple of this has come up for me a couple of this has come up for me a couple of times because I've had some recent calls times because I've had some recent calls times because I've had some recent calls with churches who like just put their with churches who like just put their with churches who like just put their budgets together for next year and they budgets together for next year and they budgets together for next year and they were like, "Oh, if I didn't think of were like, "Oh, if I didn't think of were like, "Oh, if I didn't think of that. Oh, I should have considered

that. Oh, I should have considered that. Oh, I should have considered that." And now they've already got this that." And now they've already got this that." And now they've already got this little budget approved. And they're little budget approved. And they're little budget approved. And they're like, "Oh, there's a few things that I like, "Oh, there's a few things that I like, "Oh, there's a few things that I wish I could have worked in there." So, wish I could have worked in there." So, wish I could have worked in there." So, we wanted to just kind of, you know, we wanted to just kind of, you know, we wanted to just kind of, you know, throw a few things out on the table throw a few things out on the table throw a few things out on the table today, some things that you can be today, some things that you can be today, some things that you can be considering as you're working with your considering as you're working with your considering as you're working with your leadership team to establish a marketing leadership team to establish a marketing leadership team to establish a marketing and communications budget, a digital and communications budget, a digital and communications budget, a digital outreach budget as as we might call it outreach budget as as we might call it outreach budget as as we might call it sometimes. And um that way you go in sometimes. And um that way you go in sometimes. And um that way you go in with a little more um of a framework for with a little more um of a framework for with a little more um of a framework for what you want to accomplish rather than what you want to accomplish rather than what you want to accomplish rather than just throwing a number in the budget and just throwing a number in the budget and just throwing a number in the budget and hoping that it meets your needs and gets hoping that it meets your needs and gets hoping that it meets your needs and gets you what you want. So Jason, why don't you what you want. So Jason, why don't you what you want. So Jason, why don't you start really with just um some of you start really with just um some of you start really with just um some of the basic things that as when you were a the basic things that as when you were a the basic things that as when you were a church communications director. Um I can church communications director. Um I can church communications director. Um I can speak as being a pastor who worked on speak as being a pastor who worked on speak as being a pastor who worked on that. I can't speak as a communications that. I can't speak as a communications that. I can't speak as a communications director who worked on that, but what director who worked on that, but what director who worked on that, but what were some of the things that were always were some of the things that were always were some of the things that were always super critical for you or that you would super critical for you or that you would super critical for you or that you would think would be super critical as you're think would be super critical as you're think would be super critical as you're planning for an annual marketing or planning for an annual marketing or planning for an annual marketing or communications budget? Well, the first communications budget? Well, the first communications budget? Well, the first thing is obviously understanding what thing is obviously understanding what thing is obviously understanding what you have to work with. Yeah. Um, and you have to work with. Yeah. Um, and you have to work with. Yeah. Um, and then of course they're going to say, then of course they're going to say, then of course they're going to say, "Hey everyone, good news is we get to "Hey everyone, good news is we get to "Hey everyone, good news is we get to keep our budget the same as last year."

keep our budget the same as last year." keep our budget the same as last year." Hopefully that's good news. Or great Hopefully that's good news. Or great Hopefully that's good news. Or great news would be like everybody we get to news would be like everybody we get to news would be like everybody we get to increase it. You know, we were doing increase it. You know, we were doing increase it. You know, we were doing really well on our on our income in really well on our on our income in really well on our on our income in terms of giving and so we think we're terms of giving and so we think we're terms of giving and so we think we're going to, you know, get that much giving going to, you know, get that much giving going to, you know, get that much giving so everybody gets to get 5% more or so everybody gets to get 5% more or so everybody gets to get 5% more or something like that. You so you first something like that. You so you first something like that. You so you first got to figure out what do I have to work got to figure out what do I have to work got to figure out what do I have to work with, right? That's obviously if you if with, right? That's obviously if you if with, right? That's obviously if you if you you don't know that, go ask. You you you don't know that, go ask. You you you don't know that, go ask. You know, especially for younger uh younger know, especially for younger uh younger know, especially for younger uh younger not comms directors, but younger not comms directors, but younger not comms directors, but younger departments that haven't been around departments that haven't been around departments that haven't been around very long. They may not have a a budget very long. They may not have a a budget very long. They may not have a a budget established. So, talk to your your boss established. So, talk to your your boss established. So, talk to your your boss and figure out what that looks like. and figure out what that looks like. and figure out what that looks like. That's the first thing. Wrap your arms That's the first thing. Wrap your arms That's the first thing. Wrap your arms around that. Then the next thing I'm around that. Then the next thing I'm around that. Then the next thing I'm always asking about is, well, um what if always asking about is, well, um what if always asking about is, well, um what if I have some special projects? What do I have some special projects? What do I have some special projects? What do you mean? Well, um you know, it's been you mean? Well, um you know, it's been you mean? Well, um you know, it's been six years since we redid our website. um six years since we redid our website. um six years since we redid our website. um uh if I ask for monies for a new uh if I ask for monies for a new uh if I ask for monies for a new website, is that going to be lumped into website, is that going to be lumped into website, is that going to be lumped into my budget or is that special project my budget or is that special project my budget or is that special project budget, how does that work? Or maybe budget, how does that work? Or maybe budget, how does that work? Or maybe it's a new app or, you know, we want to it's a new app or, you know, we want to it's a new app or, you know, we want to do a big uh direct mail piece or do a big uh direct mail piece or do a big uh direct mail piece or something like, you know, just something like, you know, just something like, you know, just something, right? Christmas and Easter, something, right? Christmas and Easter, something, right? Christmas and Easter, whatever that might look like. So, whatever that might look like. So, whatever that might look like. So, you're trying to figure out what are the you're trying to figure out what are the you're trying to figure out what are the big nuggets that I I know I really want big nuggets that I I know I really want big nuggets that I I know I really want to try and accomplish in the next fiscal to try and accomplish in the next fiscal to try and accomplish in the next fiscal year. Can I bring that outside of my year. Can I bring that outside of my year. Can I bring that outside of my church communications budget? So, you church communications budget? So, you church communications budget? So, you want to figure out what's the playing want to figure out what's the playing want to figure out what's the playing field around here? That's really the field around here? That's really the field around here? That's really the first thing. You probably had to deal first thing. You probably had to deal first thing. You probably had to deal with that some. Yeah, of course. I I with that some. Yeah, of course. I I with that some. Yeah, of course. I I mean, I've only served on staff in mean, I've only served on staff in mean, I've only served on staff in church plants and, you know, our budget church plants and, you know, our budget church plants and, you know, our budget fluctuated a lot from year to year. Now

fluctuated a lot from year to year. Now fluctuated a lot from year to year. Now again, as a church plant, this is this again, as a church plant, this is this again, as a church plant, this is this is one of the advantages I think that we is one of the advantages I think that we is one of the advantages I think that we always had versus more established always had versus more established always had versus more established churches is that in a church plant, you churches is that in a church plant, you churches is that in a church plant, you have no people or you have very few have no people or you have very few have no people or you have very few people and you're constantly like the people and you're constantly like the people and you're constantly like the whole focus of your ministry, 90% of it whole focus of your ministry, 90% of it whole focus of your ministry, 90% of it is outward facing. It's how do we is outward facing. It's how do we is outward facing. It's how do we connect with new people in the connect with new people in the connect with new people in the community. So from a percentage community. So from a percentage community. So from a percentage standpoint, almost always a little bit standpoint, almost always a little bit standpoint, almost always a little bit easier to leverage larger portions of easier to leverage larger portions of easier to leverage larger portions of your outreach budget for digital your outreach budget for digital your outreach budget for digital marketing and for those pieces because marketing and for those pieces because marketing and for those pieces because there's a high level of value when it there's a high level of value when it there's a high level of value when it comes to outreach and evangelism. Now comes to outreach and evangelism. Now comes to outreach and evangelism. Now one of the things to to kind of hit on one of the things to to kind of hit on one of the things to to kind of hit on something that you said, Jason, you something that you said, Jason, you something that you said, Jason, you said, okay, let's say, for instance, said, okay, let's say, for instance, said, okay, let's say, for instance, that the budget that we have for 2026 is that the budget that we have for 2026 is that the budget that we have for 2026 is the same as the budget we had for 2025. the same as the budget we had for 2025. the same as the budget we had for 2025. One of the things that I think I would One of the things that I think I would One of the things that I think I would caution churches from doing, and they caution churches from doing, and they caution churches from doing, and they all do it, we all do it. We have all all do it, we all do it. We have all all do it, we all do it. We have all done it, is we do the same thing next done it, is we do the same thing next done it, is we do the same thing next year we did this year and we did last year we did this year and we did last year we did this year and we did last year. Why? Because we've always done it year. Why? Because we've always done it year. Why? Because we've always done it that way. Um I think that pardon me. I that way. Um I think that pardon me. I that way. Um I think that pardon me. I think that one of the challenges that we think that one of the challenges that we think that one of the challenges that we need to one of the exercises we need to need to one of the exercises we need to need to one of the exercises we need to go through is we need to look back at go through is we need to look back at go through is we need to look back at the past year and evaluate the the past year and evaluate the the past year and evaluate the effectiveness of the things that we did.

effectiveness of the things that we did. effectiveness of the things that we did. Yeah. And I'll be perfectly honest with Yeah. And I'll be perfectly honest with Yeah. And I'll be perfectly honest with you, you know, I I have had some you, you know, I I have had some you, you know, I I have had some churches that have run some ad campaigns churches that have run some ad campaigns churches that have run some ad campaigns with us from time to time for different with us from time to time for different with us from time to time for different things. And when we kind of circle back things. And when we kind of circle back things. And when we kind of circle back around on the next year and go, "Hey, around on the next year and go, "Hey, around on the next year and go, "Hey, are you going to promote that thing are you going to promote that thing are you going to promote that thing again? Are you going to run meta ads or again? Are you going to run meta ads or again? Are you going to run meta ads or Google ads or whatever?" They're like, Google ads or whatever?" They're like, Google ads or whatever?" They're like, "Well, you know, when we looked at the "Well, you know, when we looked at the "Well, you know, when we looked at the results of that, it didn't really results of that, it didn't really results of that, it didn't really produce the kind of results that we were produce the kind of results that we were produce the kind of results that we were hoping for." I'm like, "That's totally hoping for." I'm like, "That's totally hoping for." I'm like, "That's totally fine and totally fair. you know, we fine and totally fair. you know, we fine and totally fair. you know, we don't let's not spend money on ad don't let's not spend money on ad don't let's not spend money on ad campaigns to promote something or the campaigns to promote something or the campaigns to promote something or the same type of ad if it didn't produce the same type of ad if it didn't produce the same type of ad if it didn't produce the results that you were looking for. The results that you were looking for. The results that you were looking for. The win for that church is that they win for that church is that they win for that church is that they actually stopped and took the time to actually stopped and took the time to actually stopped and took the time to evaluate the productivity or the evaluate the productivity or the evaluate the productivity or the effectiveness of the campaign. So, I effectiveness of the campaign. So, I effectiveness of the campaign. So, I have worked with many churches, as have have worked with many churches, as have have worked with many churches, as have you, that we do a mailer two or three you, that we do a mailer two or three you, that we do a mailer two or three times a year. We spend $1,000 times a year. We spend $1,000 times a year. We spend $1,000 on these mailers every year. And why do on these mailers every year. And why do on these mailers every year. And why do we do the mailers? Well, we do the we do the mailers? Well, we do the we do the mailers? Well, we do the mailers because we've always done the mailers because we've always done the mailers because we've always done the mailers. And so I start asking the mailers. And so I start asking the mailers. And so I start asking the question, well, could we could we question, well, could we could we question, well, could we could we actually can could we either kill the actually can could we either kill the actually can could we either kill the mailer or cut back on the mailer? Can we mailer or cut back on the mailer? Can we mailer or cut back on the mailer? Can we actually evaluate the effectiveness of actually evaluate the effectiveness of actually evaluate the effectiveness of the mailer? Because if we can't and the mailer? Because if we can't and the mailer? Because if we can't and we're going to do the mailers again this we're going to do the mailers again this we're going to do the mailers again this next year, maybe we need to try a next year, maybe we need to try a next year, maybe we need to try a different strategy so that we can different strategy so that we can different strategy so that we can actually better measure whether or not actually better measure whether or not actually better measure whether or not we're spending money on something that's we're spending money on something that's we're spending money on something that's moving the needle. So, the first thing moving the needle. So, the first thing moving the needle. So, the first thing that I would do is re-evaluate the past that I would do is re-evaluate the past that I would do is re-evaluate the past 12 months or the past 24 months. What 12 months or the past 24 months. What 12 months or the past 24 months. What are the things you've done? Can you are the things you've done? Can you are the things you've done? Can you quantify the effectiveness of those quantify the effectiveness of those quantify the effectiveness of those things? Because you might even without things? Because you might even without things? Because you might even without an increase in your budget, you might be an increase in your budget, you might be an increase in your budget, you might be able to move some things around to do able to move some things around to do able to move some things around to do more in some areas and less in other

more in some areas and less in other more in some areas and less in other areas that might get you more traction areas that might get you more traction areas that might get you more traction going forward. Well, that that that does going forward. Well, that that that does going forward. Well, that that that does bring me to my second point. So, once bring me to my second point. So, once bring me to my second point. So, once you do figure out, you know, how much you do figure out, you know, how much you do figure out, you know, how much cash do I get to work with? Like, you cash do I get to work with? Like, you cash do I get to work with? Like, you just got to know what that number is. just got to know what that number is. just got to know what that number is. It's got to be a number. The second It's got to be a number. The second It's got to be a number. The second thing is looking at the the past year or thing is looking at the the past year or thing is looking at the the past year or two years or three years and not only two years or three years and not only two years or three years and not only what what you said is just really really what what you said is just really really what what you said is just really really intelligent B it's did we move the intelligent B it's did we move the intelligent B it's did we move the needle the question I ask is what needle needle the question I ask is what needle needle the question I ask is what needle what was the goal and now this is a so what was the goal and now this is a so what was the goal and now this is a so this is a little bit bigger conversation this is a little bit bigger conversation this is a little bit bigger conversation and I pro I'm going to go on a limb here and I pro I'm going to go on a limb here and I pro I'm going to go on a limb here to say that most comm's people are not to say that most comm's people are not to say that most comm's people are not asking this question the question to my asking this question the question to my asking this question the question to my boss would be hey boss boss would be hey boss boss would be hey boss what were our goals in 2025 for 2024? He what were our goals in 2025 for 2024? He what were our goals in 2025 for 2024? He might say, well, we come out. Well, did might say, well, we come out. Well, did might say, well, we come out. Well, did we have specific goals that actually we have specific goals that actually we have specific goals that actually move the needle of our disciplehip move the needle of our disciplehip move the needle of our disciplehip plan or path? So, we're all in this to plan or path? So, we're all in this to plan or path? So, we're all in this to help people become apprentices. Like, help people become apprentices. Like, help people become apprentices. Like, we're of Jesus. We're supposed to follow we're of Jesus. We're supposed to follow we're of Jesus. We're supposed to follow him. What is that at our church? You him. What is that at our church? You him. What is that at our church? You know, baptisms are great goals.

know, baptisms are great goals. know, baptisms are great goals. Attendance is a great goal. Small groups Attendance is a great goal. Small groups Attendance is a great goal. Small groups is a great goal. Serving is a great is a great goal. Serving is a great is a great goal. Serving is a great goal. Giving is a great goal. Like those goal. Giving is a great goal. Like those goal. Giving is a great goal. Like those are the goals. are the goals. are the goals. How do we do? And I and I just said this How do we do? And I and I just said this How do we do? And I and I just said this earlier with a church. Most businesses earlier with a church. Most businesses earlier with a church. Most businesses like ours, we're in business because we like ours, we're in business because we like ours, we're in business because we have to make money to pay the bills. have to make money to pay the bills. have to make money to pay the bills. Everybody likes to get I like getting a Everybody likes to get I like getting a Everybody likes to get I like getting a paycheck. Bart likes to get paycheck paycheck. Bart likes to get paycheck paycheck. Bart likes to get paycheck every now and then. every now and then. every now and then. We have to pay our bills. So our We have to pay our bills. So our We have to pay our bills. So our currency is is is money. And most, you currency is is is money. And most, you currency is is is money. And most, you know, secular, it's it's it's money. But know, secular, it's it's it's money. But know, secular, it's it's it's money. But in the church world, the the the in the church world, the the the in the church world, the the the currency isn't money. It's people. currency isn't money. It's people. currency isn't money. It's people. People are your currency. Now people, People are your currency. Now people, People are your currency. Now people, you know, they give that we have to run you know, they give that we have to run you know, they give that we have to run this like a business because you have to this like a business because you have to this like a business because you have to pay the bills, but our currency is pay the bills, but our currency is pay the bills, but our currency is people. So my question is, how's people. So my question is, how's people. So my question is, how's business? How's business? So if you can business? How's business? So if you can business? How's business? So if you can wrap your arms around what did we do? wrap your arms around what did we do? wrap your arms around what did we do? How did our budget that we actually How did our budget that we actually How did our budget that we actually spent money on this last year, did it spent money on this last year, did it spent money on this last year, did it impact our business? If that makes impact our business? If that makes impact our business? If that makes sense. So if you can kind of figure that sense. So if you can kind of figure that sense. So if you can kind of figure that out, then boy, what you just said was out, then boy, what you just said was out, then boy, what you just said was was perfect. Hey, we did that and we we was perfect. Hey, we did that and we we was perfect. Hey, we did that and we we don't know or we did this and well, we don't know or we did this and well, we don't know or we did this and well, we think that really worked, you know, we think that really worked, you know, we think that really worked, you know, we did a direct mail piece and we don't did a direct mail piece and we don't did a direct mail piece and we don't know or maybe you do know. So, you have know or maybe you do know. So, you have know or maybe you do know. So, you have to kind of figure out the data to know to kind of figure out the data to know to kind of figure out the data to know if you were effective or not, which is if you were effective or not, which is if you were effective or not, which is going to then help you to the next thing going to then help you to the next thing going to then help you to the next thing is reimagining what your next what is reimagining what your next what is reimagining what your next what you're going to spend those dollars on, you're going to spend those dollars on, you're going to spend those dollars on, right? And so when I was a comm right? And so when I was a comm right? And so when I was a comm director, director, director, I I fought for every dollar I could get,

I I fought for every dollar I could get, I I fought for every dollar I could get, you know, and and that was it was a long you know, and and that was it was a long you know, and and that was it was a long time ago, but I knew that I had so much time ago, but I knew that I had so much time ago, but I knew that I had so much money I could spend. Even though I had money I could spend. Even though I had money I could spend. Even though I had it broken down into categories, like I it broken down into categories, like I it broken down into categories, like I had to pay for this, I had to pay for had to pay for this, I had to pay for had to pay for this, I had to pay for this, I had to pay for this. Um this, I had to pay for this. Um this, I had to pay for this. Um sometimes I'm like, you know what, we sometimes I'm like, you know what, we sometimes I'm like, you know what, we don't really need to pay for that don't really need to pay for that don't really need to pay for that because we already have stuff that we because we already have stuff that we because we already have stuff that we don't really need to pay for that. So don't really need to pay for that. So don't really need to pay for that. So I'm going to use those dollars for I'm going to use those dollars for I'm going to use those dollars for something else. And I was always trying something else. And I was always trying something else. And I was always trying to be loose with that and strategic with to be loose with that and strategic with to be loose with that and strategic with that. Uh because it came to the close to that. Uh because it came to the close to that. Uh because it came to the close to the end of the year. I wanted to spend the end of the year. I wanted to spend the end of the year. I wanted to spend all the money. I made the big mistake, all the money. I made the big mistake, all the money. I made the big mistake, don't ever make this. I paid the stupid don't ever make this. I paid the stupid don't ever make this. I paid the stupid tax. One year I was so proud of myself tax. One year I was so proud of myself tax. One year I was so proud of myself and our budget was maybe a couple and our budget was maybe a couple and our budget was maybe a couple hundred,000. And at the end of the year, hundred,000. And at the end of the year, hundred,000. And at the end of the year, I I didn't This is early on. I think I I I didn't This is early on. I think I I I didn't This is early on. I think I think we spent like 175. And I was kind think we spent like 175. And I was kind think we spent like 175. And I was kind of proud of myself. I remember telling of proud of myself. I remember telling of proud of myself. I remember telling our business administrator like, "Hey, our business administrator like, "Hey, our business administrator like, "Hey, um, look, good news is I I was able to, um, look, good news is I I was able to, um, look, good news is I I was able to, you know, do what we were able to do and you know, do what we were able to do and you know, do what we were able to do and and we came in at $179,000 and so our and we came in at $179,000 and so our and we came in at $179,000 and so our budget was 200." And he's like, "Okay." budget was 200." And he's like, "Okay." budget was 200." And he's like, "Okay." Guess what happened? Budget season came Guess what happened? Budget season came Guess what happened? Budget season came around. My new level is 175.

around. My new level is 175. around. My new level is 175. He's like, "Well, you you just proved to He's like, "Well, you you just proved to He's like, "Well, you you just proved to me that you could do ministry at 175, me that you could do ministry at 175, me that you could do ministry at 175, not 200. So, I needed that $25,000 for not 200. So, I needed that $25,000 for not 200. So, I needed that $25,000 for something else." What did I do? I something else." What did I do? I something else." What did I do? I learned don't ever do that. So I always learned don't ever do that. So I always learned don't ever do that. So I always wanted to spend all the money that I wanted to spend all the money that I wanted to spend all the money that I that I was like allotted for in my that I was like allotted for in my that I was like allotted for in my ministry. But to uh to the point of ministry. But to uh to the point of ministry. But to uh to the point of that, you know, that that you know the that, you know, that that you know the that, you know, that that you know the phase three part of that is being phase three part of that is being phase three part of that is being strategic. I just mentioned a little bit strategic. I just mentioned a little bit strategic. I just mentioned a little bit ago if you weren't listening into the ago if you weren't listening into the ago if you weren't listening into the funnel process. I would also do that funnel process. I would also do that funnel process. I would also do that with your budget. What what dollars are with your budget. What what dollars are with your budget. What what dollars are you using that's going to continue to you using that's going to continue to you using that's going to continue to increase awareness to the community increase awareness to the community increase awareness to the community about your about your church? And about your about your church? And about your about your church? And there's you got to spend money on that there's you got to spend money on that there's you got to spend money on that stuff. Like you don't have a choice. You stuff. Like you don't have a choice. You stuff. Like you don't have a choice. You got to spend money on your that's not got to spend money on your that's not got to spend money on your that's not the only way you grow your church. You the only way you grow your church. You the only way you grow your church. You you min you utilize that people go to you min you utilize that people go to you min you utilize that people go to your church, spend some money there, your church, spend some money there, your church, spend some money there, too. But I try to break it up into the too. But I try to break it up into the too. But I try to break it up into the external versus internal uh budget external versus internal uh budget external versus internal uh budget process when I'm thinking about how I'm process when I'm thinking about how I'm process when I'm thinking about how I'm going to divy divvy the money and and going to divy divvy the money and and going to divy divvy the money and and utilize it the best. Yeah. I'm gonna for utilize it the best. Yeah. I'm gonna for utilize it the best. Yeah. I'm gonna for those of you who are about to turn the those of you who are about to turn the those of you who are about to turn the podcast off because Jason had a $200,000 podcast off because Jason had a $200,000 podcast off because Jason had a $200,000 marketing budget and and that seems marketing budget and and that seems marketing budget and and that seems extreme to you. I just for perspective, extreme to you. I just for perspective, extreme to you. I just for perspective, the last church that I pastored, uh, our the last church that I pastored, uh, our the last church that I pastored, uh, our church's entire budget was only about church's entire budget was only about church's entire budget was only about $250,000. So we we did we did not have a $250,000. So we we did we did not have a $250,000. So we we did we did not have a marketing budget of of of $200,000. Our marketing budget of of of $200,000. Our marketing budget of of of $200,000. Our our our um missions budget was 10% of our our um missions budget was 10% of our our um missions budget was 10% of our total budget, right? So quarter of a our total budget, right? So quarter of a our total budget, right? So quarter of a million dollar budget, $250,000. So our

million dollar budget, $250,000. So our million dollar budget, $250,000. So our entire missions budget was $25,000. And entire missions budget was $25,000. And entire missions budget was $25,000. And the marketing came out of the missions the marketing came out of the missions the marketing came out of the missions budget. We considered that local budget. We considered that local budget. We considered that local missions or local outreach. So it was a missions or local outreach. So it was a missions or local outreach. So it was a it was a fraction of that. But here's it was a fraction of that. But here's it was a fraction of that. But here's how I got creative in those days. And I how I got creative in those days. And I how I got creative in those days. And I mean, I was the senior pastor, but I was mean, I was the senior pastor, but I was mean, I was the senior pastor, but I was also the person over all the marketing also the person over all the marketing also the person over all the marketing and communication. I had to get it and communication. I had to get it and communication. I had to get it approved by my elder board, but I was approved by my elder board, but I was approved by my elder board, but I was the one that that got to make those the one that that got to make those the one that that got to make those decisions. And what I would do is I decisions. And what I would do is I decisions. And what I would do is I would have a marketing budget. Okay? I would have a marketing budget. Okay? I would have a marketing budget. Okay? I would have a separate internal would have a separate internal would have a separate internal communications budget and I'm g to be communications budget and I'm g to be communications budget and I'm g to be honest with you, my marketing outreach honest with you, my marketing outreach honest with you, my marketing outreach budget was much bigger than my internal budget was much bigger than my internal budget was much bigger than my internal budget. One thing that kind of one thing budget. One thing that kind of one thing budget. One thing that kind of one thing that always kind of cheeses me a little that always kind of cheeses me a little that always kind of cheeses me a little bit with churches, and sorry if you're bit with churches, and sorry if you're bit with churches, and sorry if you're if if my cheesing at you upsets you, but if if my cheesing at you upsets you, but if if my cheesing at you upsets you, but uh it's not a 50-50 deal. We should not uh it's not a 50-50 deal. We should not uh it's not a 50-50 deal. We should not spend even close to as much money on spend even close to as much money on spend even close to as much money on internal marketing as we do external, internal marketing as we do external, internal marketing as we do external, but we will. We'll pay for all kinds of but we will. We'll pay for all kinds of but we will. We'll pay for all kinds of signage and printed materials and all signage and printed materials and all signage and printed materials and all kinds of stuff to promote to let people kinds of stuff to promote to let people kinds of stuff to promote to let people in our church know when the Easter in our church know when the Easter in our church know when the Easter services are when we're not spending services are when we're not spending services are when we're not spending nearly enough money outside the church nearly enough money outside the church nearly enough money outside the church to let people know what kind of ministry to let people know what kind of ministry to let people know what kind of ministry opportunities and engagements there are.

opportunities and engagements there are. opportunities and engagements there are. So that's that's a personal thing. Now So that's that's a personal thing. Now So that's that's a personal thing. Now there's another thing that um I also there's another thing that um I also there's another thing that um I also love to teach and that is you know the love to teach and that is you know the love to teach and that is you know the the the the marketplace small businesses the the the marketplace small businesses the the the marketplace small businesses marketplace um if you're a starter if marketplace um if you're a starter if marketplace um if you're a starter if you're a starter if you want to start you're a starter if you want to start you're a starter if you want to start hang a shingle out and then get a sign hang a shingle out and then get a sign hang a shingle out and then get a sign you're want to sell stuff you know most you're want to sell stuff you know most you're want to sell stuff you know most businesses are going to spend at least businesses are going to spend at least businesses are going to spend at least when they're they're getting going at when they're they're getting going at when they're they're getting going at least 15 to 20% of all their income least 15 to 20% of all their income least 15 to 20% of all their income towards marketing because they're trying towards marketing because they're trying towards marketing because they're trying to grow. I mean, you have to you get to grow. I mean, you have to you get to grow. I mean, you have to you get into like the Walmarts, Home Depot, into like the Walmarts, Home Depot, into like the Walmarts, Home Depot, they're spending like a very small they're spending like a very small they're spending like a very small fraction, like a 0.2% of their overall, fraction, like a 0.2% of their overall, fraction, like a 0.2% of their overall, right, income to marketing because right, income to marketing because right, income to marketing because they're so well established. Okay, they're so well established. Okay, they're so well established. Okay, here's the rule of thumb, though. Most here's the rule of thumb, though. Most here's the rule of thumb, though. Most churches should spend at least 3 to 5% churches should spend at least 3 to 5% churches should spend at least 3 to 5% of their overall budget towards external of their overall budget towards external of their overall budget towards external marketing. So, you can kind of do the marketing. So, you can kind of do the marketing. So, you can kind of do the math. If you're a a million dollar, you math. If you're a a million dollar, you math. If you're a a million dollar, you know, you know, you get a million know, you know, you get a million know, you know, you get a million dollars annually, right? That pays for dollars annually, right? That pays for dollars annually, right? That pays for everything. 3 to 5% of that really everything. 3 to 5% of that really everything. 3 to 5% of that really should be earmarked for external should be earmarked for external should be earmarked for external advertising. And most churches go, advertising. And most churches go, advertising. And most churches go, "What?" Well, yeah, cuz you're a small "What?" Well, yeah, cuz you're a small "What?" Well, yeah, cuz you're a small business. I mean, that now the business. I mean, that now the business. I mean, that now the difference between two differences difference between two differences difference between two differences between you and the marketplace is between you and the marketplace is between you and the marketplace is number one, you have a marketing team of number one, you have a marketing team of number one, you have a marketing team of people sitting in your seat.

people sitting in your seat. people sitting in your seat. You can lean on the people in your seats You can lean on the people in your seats You can lean on the people in your seats at your congregation to invite and bring at your congregation to invite and bring at your congregation to invite and bring their friends. When when I if I'm at a their friends. When when I if I'm at a their friends. When when I if I'm at a hardware store, I can say, "Hey, bring a hardware store, I can say, "Hey, bring a hardware store, I can say, "Hey, bring a friend back in." But that feels weird. friend back in." But that feels weird. friend back in." But that feels weird. Like just come back soon. That's usually Like just come back soon. That's usually Like just come back soon. That's usually what you hear. You you come back soon, what you hear. You you come back soon, what you hear. You you come back soon, but you don't bring friends with you. At but you don't bring friends with you. At but you don't bring friends with you. At church, you have that ability. And the church, you have that ability. And the church, you have that ability. And the second thing that you have that those second thing that you have that those second thing that you have that those people don't have is the Holy Spirit. people don't have is the Holy Spirit. people don't have is the Holy Spirit. It's his church. So you have the spirit It's his church. So you have the spirit It's his church. So you have the spirit that can use and move people in your that can use and move people in your that can use and move people in your church to invite and bring their friends church to invite and bring their friends church to invite and bring their friends and take your and stretch those dollars, and take your and stretch those dollars, and take your and stretch those dollars, right? Those those kingdom dollars are right? Those those kingdom dollars are right? Those those kingdom dollars are different from real math dollars, right? different from real math dollars, right? different from real math dollars, right? You can you can spend money and okay, You can you can spend money and okay, You can you can spend money and okay, Lord, we're planting these digital Lord, we're planting these digital Lord, we're planting these digital seeds. We need you to do your thing. So seeds. We need you to do your thing. So seeds. We need you to do your thing. So you have that going for you, but 3 to 5% you have that going for you, but 3 to 5% you have that going for you, but 3 to 5% is really what you should be spending on is really what you should be spending on is really what you should be spending on external advertising. Yeah, there's external advertising. Yeah, there's external advertising. Yeah, there's financial capital and there's human financial capital and there's human financial capital and there's human capital in the context of the church. capital in the context of the church. capital in the context of the church. And you know, I've I've I've tried to And you know, I've I've I've tried to And you know, I've I've I've tried to figure out, you know, the formula, cuz figure out, you know, the formula, cuz figure out, you know, the formula, cuz this is just the way that my brain goes. this is just the way that my brain goes. this is just the way that my brain goes. So, if if you're a business, um, one of So, if if you're a business, um, one of So, if if you're a business, um, one of the things that you're going to track, the things that you're going to track, the things that you're going to track, if you if you watch Shark Tank, you'll if you if you watch Shark Tank, you'll if you if you watch Shark Tank, you'll hear the sharks always ask this hear the sharks always ask this hear the sharks always ask this question, what is your cost of client question, what is your cost of client question, what is your cost of client acquisition? How much does it cost you acquisition? How much does it cost you acquisition? How much does it cost you to get a customer? Meaning, what, you to get a customer? Meaning, what, you to get a customer? Meaning, what, you know, you spend how many marketing know, you spend how many marketing know, you spend how many marketing dollars and how many new customers does dollars and how many new customers does dollars and how many new customers does that generate? And so, they're always that generate? And so, they're always that generate? And so, they're always going to put a dollar amount on it.

going to put a dollar amount on it. going to put a dollar amount on it. They're going to say, you know, it's They're going to say, you know, it's They're going to say, you know, it's it's $20 or $50 or $500 or $5,000, it's $20 or $50 or $500 or $5,000, it's $20 or $50 or $500 or $5,000, whatever it costs. From a church whatever it costs. From a church whatever it costs. From a church perspective, we can't always tie a perspective, we can't always tie a perspective, we can't always tie a dollar to a new attendee or a new member dollar to a new attendee or a new member dollar to a new attendee or a new member in the church because we have this human in the church because we have this human in the church because we have this human capital that we get to spend, which is capital that we get to spend, which is capital that we get to spend, which is if we're investing in and discipling the if we're investing in and discipling the if we're investing in and discipling the people inside of our church as well, people inside of our church as well, people inside of our church as well, they are going to be bringers. They are they are going to be bringers. They are they are going to be bringers. They are going to be people who invite. They are going to be people who invite. They are going to be people who invite. They are going to be people who are investing in going to be people who are investing in going to be people who are investing in relationships with people who are far relationships with people who are far relationships with people who are far from God. see your church is the best from God. see your church is the best from God. see your church is the best thing since sliced bread. And they're thing since sliced bread. And they're thing since sliced bread. And they're going to be the best evangelists and the going to be the best evangelists and the going to be the best evangelists and the best marketers for your church, whether best marketers for your church, whether best marketers for your church, whether that's online or in their neighborhood that's online or in their neighborhood that's online or in their neighborhood or in their cubicle farm at work, right? or in their cubicle farm at work, right? or in their cubicle farm at work, right? Whatever that that looks like. I will Whatever that that looks like. I will Whatever that that looks like. I will say this though, um you should measure say this though, um you should measure say this though, um you should measure it. You should measure everything. And it. You should measure everything. And it. You should measure everything. And this is another I think another issue I this is another I think another issue I this is another I think another issue I kind of get back to looking at the kind of get back to looking at the kind of get back to looking at the previous years and evaluating the previous years and evaluating the previous years and evaluating the effectiveness of the marketing campaigns effectiveness of the marketing campaigns effectiveness of the marketing campaigns that you're doing whether it's mailers that you're doing whether it's mailers that you're doing whether it's mailers or digital or you know however you're or digital or you know however you're or digital or you know however you're doing that you know front yard signs doing that you know front yard signs doing that you know front yard signs billboards is that if you can't measure billboards is that if you can't measure billboards is that if you can't measure it you probably shouldn't spend money on it you probably shouldn't spend money on it you probably shouldn't spend money on it. Yeah. You really need to be able to it. Yeah. You really need to be able to it. Yeah. You really need to be able to quantify the effectiveness of your quantify the effectiveness of your quantify the effectiveness of your marketing campaigns, which is one of the marketing campaigns, which is one of the marketing campaigns, which is one of the reasons that digital is digital is reasons that digital is digital is reasons that digital is digital is probably supreme to all of those things probably supreme to all of those things probably supreme to all of those things because it does allow you the ability to because it does allow you the ability to because it does allow you the ability to see how many ad impressions you got, how see how many ad impressions you got, how see how many ad impressions you got, how many clicks to your website you got, uh many clicks to your website you got, uh many clicks to your website you got, uh what the engagement rate was for the what the engagement rate was for the what the engagement rate was for the people who were clicking to your people who were clicking to your people who were clicking to your website. Meaning, did they actually website. Meaning, did they actually website. Meaning, did they actually spend time on the website or did they spend time on the website or did they spend time on the website or did they just click your ad, see your page, and

just click your ad, see your page, and just click your ad, see your page, and jump bounce bounce right off. So, if you jump bounce bounce right off. So, if you jump bounce bounce right off. So, if you can't measure it, you probably shouldn't can't measure it, you probably shouldn't can't measure it, you probably shouldn't spend money on it when it comes to spend money on it when it comes to spend money on it when it comes to digital marketing and outreach. Now, digital marketing and outreach. Now, digital marketing and outreach. Now, it's hard to measure a billboard, but it's hard to measure a billboard, but it's hard to measure a billboard, but there are ways of measuring billboard there are ways of measuring billboard there are ways of measuring billboard traffic by using unique URLs or traffic by using unique URLs or traffic by using unique URLs or subdomains or QR codes or things like QR subdomains or QR codes or things like QR subdomains or QR codes or things like QR codes on billboards. Seems a little codes on billboards. Seems a little codes on billboards. Seems a little dangerous. Seems a little dangerous to dangerous. Seems a little dangerous to dangerous. Seems a little dangerous to me, but you know, or postcards. You do a me, but you know, or postcards. You do a me, but you know, or postcards. You do a mailer, use a unique, trackable QR code. mailer, use a unique, trackable QR code. mailer, use a unique, trackable QR code. Um, don't just put a Canva free QR code Um, don't just put a Canva free QR code Um, don't just put a Canva free QR code on there where you can't tell where that on there where you can't tell where that on there where you can't tell where that traffic is coming from. Spend the extra traffic is coming from. Spend the extra traffic is coming from. Spend the extra money on the trackable QR code so that money on the trackable QR code so that money on the trackable QR code so that you can say, "Hey, we mailed 50,000 you can say, "Hey, we mailed 50,000 you can say, "Hey, we mailed 50,000 postcards and of the 50,000 postcards we postcards and of the 50,000 postcards we postcards and of the 50,000 postcards we mailed, we had a,000 people who clicked mailed, we had a,000 people who clicked mailed, we had a,000 people who clicked to the website using the QR code that to the website using the QR code that to the website using the QR code that was on there." Right? If you can't was on there." Right? If you can't was on there." Right? If you can't measure it, you probably shouldn't spend measure it, you probably shouldn't spend measure it, you probably shouldn't spend money on it. just give yourself an money on it. just give yourself an money on it. just give yourself an opportunity to evaluate hard before you opportunity to evaluate hard before you opportunity to evaluate hard before you run those campaigns on how you're going run those campaigns on how you're going run those campaigns on how you're going to measure the results on things. Well, to measure the results on things. Well, to measure the results on things. Well, and I think when you're thinking about and I think when you're thinking about and I think when you're thinking about your budget, I mean, obviously, yeah, I your budget, I mean, obviously, yeah, I your budget, I mean, obviously, yeah, I mean, you're looking in the past to mean, you're looking in the past to mean, you're looking in the past to figure out was that successful or not?

figure out was that successful or not? figure out was that successful or not? You know, it it really helps you You know, it it really helps you You know, it it really helps you understand with digital tools at least, understand with digital tools at least, understand with digital tools at least, did we get the traction we're looking did we get the traction we're looking did we get the traction we're looking for? And um AI is changing a lot of the for? And um AI is changing a lot of the for? And um AI is changing a lot of the game on this. If you if you're not quite game on this. If you if you're not quite game on this. If you if you're not quite sure, use Claude or Chad GPT to help you sure, use Claude or Chad GPT to help you sure, use Claude or Chad GPT to help you figure out what a budget should look figure out what a budget should look figure out what a budget should look like. That would be interesting to do. like. That would be interesting to do. like. That would be interesting to do. But I do I think what you're saying But I do I think what you're saying But I do I think what you're saying there, Bart, is strategies are so key to there, Bart, is strategies are so key to there, Bart, is strategies are so key to having a budget that ends up you're having a budget that ends up you're having a budget that ends up you're you're proud of what you did at the end you're proud of what you did at the end you're proud of what you did at the end of the year. You look back and go, "Hey, of the year. You look back and go, "Hey, of the year. You look back and go, "Hey, we were able to really make some we were able to really make some we were able to really make some progress here." Um, and we didn't do it progress here." Um, and we didn't do it progress here." Um, and we didn't do it by ourselves. There's a lot of prayer of by ourselves. There's a lot of prayer of by ourselves. There's a lot of prayer of the Lord moving to help us grow, but we the Lord moving to help us grow, but we the Lord moving to help us grow, but we should be able to look back and and some should be able to look back and and some should be able to look back and and some of our data points and go, "Yeah, of our data points and go, "Yeah, of our data points and go, "Yeah, activisms were up, attendance was up, activisms were up, attendance was up, activisms were up, attendance was up, and you know, first time guests were and you know, first time guests were and you know, first time guests were up." Can we can we identify that ratio up." Can we can we identify that ratio up." Can we can we identify that ratio 1:1? No. It's 1:1? No. It's 1:1? No. It's really, really difficult. But if the really, really difficult. But if the really, really difficult. But if the effort you're doing now and the money effort you're doing now and the money effort you're doing now and the money you spent now, if that data says, well, you spent now, if that data says, well, you spent now, if that data says, well, this is what this is the baseline. You this is what this is the baseline. You this is what this is the baseline. You you did this with this kind of money, you did this with this kind of money, you did this with this kind of money, maybe go back two years to see if that maybe go back two years to see if that maybe go back two years to see if that was what that looked like. And now next was what that looked like. And now next was what that looked like. And now next year, keep looking at that and you'll year, keep looking at that and you'll year, keep looking at that and you'll kind of know. It's a long game. It's not kind of know. It's a long game. It's not kind of know. It's a long game. It's not like, you know, you're you're in it and like, you know, you're you're in it and like, you know, you're you're in it and out of it. You really want to be paying out of it. You really want to be paying out of it. You really want to be paying attention to the longevity.

attention to the longevity. attention to the longevity. Years of doing this, not just one slice Years of doing this, not just one slice Years of doing this, not just one slice of a year. It's too difficult. kind of of a year. It's too difficult. kind of of a year. It's too difficult. kind of expand to see how how you've how you've expand to see how how you've how you've expand to see how how you've how you've really helped uh your church grow. One really helped uh your church grow. One really helped uh your church grow. One of the things you mentioned earlier, of the things you mentioned earlier, of the things you mentioned earlier, Jason, was uh website. And I I just want Jason, was uh website. And I I just want Jason, was uh website. And I I just want to throw this out here as just one sort to throw this out here as just one sort to throw this out here as just one sort of little side note. The effectiveness of little side note. The effectiveness of little side note. The effectiveness of any marketing campaign that you do is of any marketing campaign that you do is of any marketing campaign that you do is really it's not going to depend on the really it's not going to depend on the really it's not going to depend on the quality of your ads. It's going to be quality of your ads. It's going to be quality of your ads. It's going to be the quality of the landing page that the quality of the landing page that the quality of the landing page that you're driving people to. The ad is you're driving people to. The ad is you're driving people to. The ad is designed to get somebody to take the designed to get somebody to take the designed to get somebody to take the first step of action, which is to learn first step of action, which is to learn first step of action, which is to learn more, to learn more about you, learn more, to learn more about you, learn more, to learn more about you, learn more about the event, the activity, more about the event, the activity, more about the event, the activity, whatever it is that you're doing. The whatever it is that you're doing. The whatever it is that you're doing. The quality of your landing page is really quality of your landing page is really quality of your landing page is really that's that's where you're selling the that's that's where you're selling the that's that's where you're selling the person. So whether it's through a video person. So whether it's through a video person. So whether it's through a video or through written copy or for images or or through written copy or for images or or through written copy or for images or for you know uh free content that you're for you know uh free content that you're for you know uh free content that you're offering on that landing page and I will offering on that landing page and I will offering on that landing page and I will say about nine out of 10 churches that say about nine out of 10 churches that say about nine out of 10 churches that we have the privilege to run ad we have the privilege to run ad we have the privilege to run ad campaigns with and those of you who are campaigns with and those of you who are campaigns with and those of you who are listening you can decide which category listening you can decide which category listening you can decide which category you fall in here. The landing page is an you fall in here. The landing page is an you fall in here. The landing page is an afterthought to the ad campaign. they afterthought to the ad campaign. they afterthought to the ad campaign. they really don't put enough. They put really don't put enough. They put really don't put enough. They put they'll put all this time and this they'll put all this time and this they'll put all this time and this energy and effort into creating this energy and effort into creating this energy and effort into creating this event and then the landing page gets event and then the landing page gets event and then the landing page gets like just a cursory. We're just going to like just a cursory. We're just going to like just a cursory. We're just going to copy and paste something and put a few copy and paste something and put a few copy and paste something and put a few little pictures on here and it it little pictures on here and it it little pictures on here and it it doesn't sell. And I I would say ask doesn't sell. And I I would say ask doesn't sell. And I I would say ask yourself the question, if you didn't yourself the question, if you didn't yourself the question, if you didn't know anything about your church and you know anything about your church and you know anything about your church and you landed on the landing page, would it landed on the landing page, would it landed on the landing page, would it convince you to take action? like you

convince you to take action? like you convince you to take action? like you really have to be honest with yourself really have to be honest with yourself really have to be honest with yourself because I think that you know spending a because I think that you know spending a because I think that you know spending a little bit of extra time spending a little bit of extra time spending a little bit of extra time spending a little bit of extra money really little bit of extra money really little bit of extra money really leveling up that landing page where leveling up that landing page where leveling up that landing page where you're driving the website traffic for you're driving the website traffic for you're driving the website traffic for the for the ad campaigns whether that's the for the ad campaigns whether that's the for the ad campaigns whether that's print or billboard or mailers or print or billboard or mailers or print or billboard or mailers or digital. You've got to really make that digital. You've got to really make that digital. You've got to really make that landing page uh it it's got to shine. landing page uh it it's got to shine. landing page uh it it's got to shine. It's got to be the thing that really It's got to be the thing that really It's got to be the thing that really convinces the person your church is the convinces the person your church is the convinces the person your church is the right fit for me or this event is right fit for me or this event is right fit for me or this event is something I absolutely have to something I absolutely have to something I absolutely have to prioritize for my family on this prioritize for my family on this prioritize for my family on this particular date at this particular time. particular date at this particular time. particular date at this particular time. Right. Yeah. you know, and because we're Right. Yeah. you know, and because we're Right. Yeah. you know, and because we're talking about budgets here, uh, it's talking about budgets here, uh, it's talking about budgets here, uh, it's it's going, did did the money we spent, it's going, did did the money we spent, it's going, did did the money we spent, so if we got some budget money for so if we got some budget money for so if we got some budget money for digital ads and we got a bunch of digital ads and we got a bunch of digital ads and we got a bunch of clicks, they land on that landing page, clicks, they land on that landing page, clicks, they land on that landing page, you know, from there, how do we know if you know, from there, how do we know if you know, from there, how do we know if they got into into a seat, and that's my they got into into a seat, and that's my they got into into a seat, and that's my point is it's a hard there are some point is it's a hard there are some point is it's a hard there are some technologies that are they're a little technologies that are they're a little technologies that are they're a little more expensive though to be able to more expensive though to be able to more expensive though to be able to track. But I just think from the track. But I just think from the track. But I just think from the standpoint of when I was when I was standpoint of when I was when I was standpoint of when I was when I was doing this at my church, I would look at doing this at my church, I would look at doing this at my church, I would look at I would literally look at what I was I would literally look at what I was I would literally look at what I was spending money on and different things spending money on and different things spending money on and different things and and and I just looked over here and and and and I just looked over here and and and and I just looked over here and thought, well gosh, you know, we grew by thought, well gosh, you know, we grew by thought, well gosh, you know, we grew by 12%. You know, weekend attendance and 12%. You know, weekend attendance and 12%. You know, weekend attendance and our baptisms grew by 15%. You know, our our baptisms grew by 15%. You know, our our baptisms grew by 15%. You know, our small group stuff grew, uh, but that one small group stuff grew, uh, but that one small group stuff grew, uh, but that one didn't grow there. Okay? I had to just didn't grow there. Okay? I had to just didn't grow there. Okay? I had to just kind of ne see what was what was kind of ne see what was what was kind of ne see what was what was happening and go well these are the happening and go well these are the happening and go well these are the things I was doing and they seem to be things I was doing and they seem to be things I was doing and they seem to be working but as Bart was saying there are

working but as Bart was saying there are working but as Bart was saying there are some there are some things you can track some there are some things you can track some there are some things you can track really really well and there's some really really well and there's some really really well and there's some things you're just okay we're going to things you're just okay we're going to things you're just okay we're going to promote uh summer camps you know VBS or promote uh summer camps you know VBS or promote uh summer camps you know VBS or something like that and we're going to something like that and we're going to something like that and we're going to sell out but there's just this this sell out but there's just this this sell out but there's just this this there's this thing that I want to point there's this thing that I want to point there's this thing that I want to point uh and talk a little bit about and uh and talk a little bit about and uh and talk a little bit about and that's just like the laws of averages of that's just like the laws of averages of that's just like the laws of averages of of marketing. If you read most marketing of marketing. If you read most marketing of marketing. If you read most marketing books, they're going to say you need to books, they're going to say you need to books, they're going to say you need to have touch points of like seven touch have touch points of like seven touch have touch points of like seven touch points. Seven touch points for somebody points. Seven touch points for somebody points. Seven touch points for somebody to take some action, right? That's why, to take some action, right? That's why, to take some action, right? That's why, you know, companies, insurance companies you know, companies, insurance companies you know, companies, insurance companies run ads so often, right? And you see run ads so often, right? And you see run ads so often, right? And you see billboards and then you see you're billboards and then you see you're billboards and then you see you're driving around and you get something in driving around and you get something in driving around and you get something in the mail. Seven touch points. In the the mail. Seven touch points. In the the mail. Seven touch points. In the church world, I think it's more like 12 church world, I think it's more like 12 church world, I think it's more like 12 touch points. It's just it's just more. touch points. It's just it's just more. touch points. It's just it's just more. However, However, However, the power of some of your touch points the power of some of your touch points the power of some of your touch points can like multiply. Like if you've got a can like multiply. Like if you've got a can like multiply. Like if you've got a sermon snippet and your pastor just sermon snippet and your pastor just sermon snippet and your pastor just dropped like it was like, "Wow, that was dropped like it was like, "Wow, that was dropped like it was like, "Wow, that was really really good." That impacted really really good." That impacted really really good." That impacted somebody, they might think of it like somebody, they might think of it like somebody, they might think of it like six or seven times. So, you don't need six or seven times. So, you don't need six or seven times. So, you don't need 12. They just your pastor nailed it six 12. They just your pastor nailed it six 12. They just your pastor nailed it six or seven times cuz it's it keeps or seven times cuz it's it keeps or seven times cuz it's it keeps sticking in their head, right? But I sticking in their head, right? But I sticking in their head, right? But I think about those touch points of think about those touch points of think about those touch points of there's just some things we have to do.

there's just some things we have to do. there's just some things we have to do. We don't ever want to stop advertising We don't ever want to stop advertising We don't ever want to stop advertising digitally. So in your budgets, what I digitally. So in your budgets, what I digitally. So in your budgets, what I would do is I would certainly have a would do is I would certainly have a would do is I would certainly have a Christmas and an Easter budget, but I'd Christmas and an Easter budget, but I'd Christmas and an Easter budget, but I'd have it every month we're just evergreen have it every month we're just evergreen have it every month we're just evergreen kind of ads that we're constantly kind of ads that we're constantly kind of ads that we're constantly running because we know it takes touch running because we know it takes touch running because we know it takes touch points for people to to move to get some points for people to to move to get some points for people to to move to get some action. How are you going to like track action. How are you going to like track action. How are you going to like track that? You really can't. You you can do that? You really can't. You you can do that? You really can't. You you can do you can look at the clicks to the you can look at the clicks to the you can look at the clicks to the website and maybe you could actually website and maybe you could actually website and maybe you could actually drive. Now there there are some things drive. Now there there are some things drive. Now there there are some things you can do. I couldn't drive somebody, you can do. I couldn't drive somebody, you can do. I couldn't drive somebody, this church I just talked to in North this church I just talked to in North this church I just talked to in North Carolina, they're doing this. They're Carolina, they're doing this. They're Carolina, they're doing this. They're sending all their ads to a hidden page sending all their ads to a hidden page sending all their ads to a hidden page and on that hidden page, they've got a and on that hidden page, they've got a and on that hidden page, they've got a couple of different forms. In fact, couple of different forms. In fact, couple of different forms. In fact, they've got a couple different hidden they've got a couple different hidden they've got a couple different hidden pages like AB testing to figure out pages like AB testing to figure out pages like AB testing to figure out which form is working best. They run it which form is working best. They run it which form is working best. They run it for a couple months and then they make for a couple months and then they make for a couple months and then they make some tweaks to it. So, it's kind of long some tweaks to it. So, it's kind of long some tweaks to it. So, it's kind of long game stuff, but out of that that form game stuff, but out of that that form game stuff, but out of that that form that's on that landing page, you get that's on that landing page, you get that's on that landing page, you get somebody This is Bart has a church that somebody This is Bart has a church that somebody This is Bart has a church that does I love this idea. Um, let us send does I love this idea. Um, let us send does I love this idea. Um, let us send you some information about your your you some information about your your you some information about your your visit to our church. Just shoot us your, visit to our church. Just shoot us your, visit to our church. Just shoot us your, you know, put your email in here. That's you know, put your email in here. That's you know, put your email in here. That's brilliant. You you you is such low easy.

brilliant. You you you is such low easy. brilliant. You you you is such low easy. I'll just enter my email. You'll send me I'll just enter my email. You'll send me I'll just enter my email. You'll send me a PDF so I can learn about my visit. We a PDF so I can learn about my visit. We a PDF so I can learn about my visit. We don't know if they came up, but now you don't know if they came up, but now you don't know if they came up, but now you just got that lead and it converted just got that lead and it converted just got that lead and it converted because there was an ad that drove to because there was an ad that drove to because there was an ad that drove to that page. So, there are some things you that page. So, there are some things you that page. So, there are some things you can track, but for the most part, I want can track, but for the most part, I want can track, but for the most part, I want to say that you're you're spending money to say that you're you're spending money to say that you're you're spending money and it's sort of the organic way that and it's sort of the organic way that and it's sort of the organic way that you know your church is growing and what you know your church is growing and what you know your church is growing and what you're doing is moving the needle. And I you're doing is moving the needle. And I you're doing is moving the needle. And I think that's important to understand. think that's important to understand. think that's important to understand. You got to have that ongoing evergreen You got to have that ongoing evergreen You got to have that ongoing evergreen stuff. And then you can kind of get stuff. And then you can kind of get stuff. And then you can kind of get strategic on is this actually working? strategic on is this actually working? strategic on is this actually working? Because then if it is working for 2026 Because then if it is working for 2026 Because then if it is working for 2026 or 2027, whatever year we're talking or 2027, whatever year we're talking or 2027, whatever year we're talking about, double down. Let's say I I just about, double down. Let's say I I just about, double down. Let's say I I just spent $500 for that. I want to spend spent $500 for that. I want to spend spent $500 for that. I want to spend a,000 or 2,000 art cuz it's it's a,000 or 2,000 art cuz it's it's a,000 or 2,000 art cuz it's it's working. I'm going to quit this other working. I'm going to quit this other working. I'm going to quit this other thing because I can't know if it's thing because I can't know if it's thing because I can't know if it's working. Hey, here's a little hack that working. Hey, here's a little hack that working. Hey, here's a little hack that I learned years ago with my board and I learned years ago with my board and I learned years ago with my board and people who were helping me manage my people who were helping me manage my people who were helping me manage my budget is that um when it came to budget is that um when it came to budget is that um when it came to Christmas and Easter, uh I did Christmas Christmas and Easter, uh I did Christmas Christmas and Easter, uh I did Christmas and Easter marketing out of the and Easter marketing out of the and Easter marketing out of the Christmas and Easter budget, not out of Christmas and Easter budget, not out of Christmas and Easter budget, not out of my marketing budget. So, we had a budget my marketing budget. So, we had a budget my marketing budget. So, we had a budget for Christmas, a budget for Easter, and for Christmas, a budget for Easter, and for Christmas, a budget for Easter, and when it came time to run ad campaigns when it came time to run ad campaigns when it came time to run ad campaigns for those things, I went to the for those things, I went to the for those things, I went to the Christmas and the Easter budget. And I Christmas and the Easter budget. And I Christmas and the Easter budget. And I pulled money from those areas rather pulled money from those areas rather pulled money from those areas rather than using them for my my for my than using them for my my for my than using them for my my for my marketing budget, or I supplemented from marketing budget, or I supplemented from marketing budget, or I supplemented from that. I'm like, "Hey, I can pull a few that. I'm like, "Hey, I can pull a few that. I'm like, "Hey, I can pull a few hundred from each of those budgets, hundred from each of those budgets, hundred from each of those budgets, supplement my marketing budget, and now supplement my marketing budget, and now supplement my marketing budget, and now all of a sudden, instead of having $500 all of a sudden, instead of having $500 all of a sudden, instead of having $500 to spend on an ad campaign, I've got to spend on an ad campaign, I've got to spend on an ad campaign, I've got $1,000 to spend on an ad campaign or $1,000 to spend on an ad campaign or $1,000 to spend on an ad campaign or something." You know, the same thing. go something." You know, the same thing. go something." You know, the same thing. go to children's ministry, say, "Hey, how to children's ministry, say, "Hey, how to children's ministry, say, "Hey, how much money are you going to give me to

much money are you going to give me to much money are you going to give me to promote your VBS?" Right. You know, VVS promote your VBS?" Right. You know, VVS promote your VBS?" Right. You know, VVS is like churchwide. A lot of churches do is like churchwide. A lot of churches do is like churchwide. A lot of churches do VBS. Make the children's ministry pay VBS. Make the children's ministry pay VBS. Make the children's ministry pay for that. Not you. Yeah. Exactly. Or at for that. Not you. Yeah. Exactly. Or at for that. Not you. Yeah. Exactly. Or at least or at least supplement your budget least or at least supplement your budget least or at least supplement your budget for the point of effectiveness. Jason, for the point of effectiveness. Jason, for the point of effectiveness. Jason, we need to wrap this up. And I I'm gonna we need to wrap this up. And I I'm gonna we need to wrap this up. And I I'm gonna I'm gonna land the plane here and say um I'm gonna land the plane here and say um I'm gonna land the plane here and say um one of one of the things I want to just one of one of the things I want to just one of one of the things I want to just I want to promote as a benefit of I want to promote as a benefit of I want to promote as a benefit of partnering with missional marketing. If partnering with missional marketing. If partnering with missional marketing. If you work with us to run digital ad you work with us to run digital ad you work with us to run digital ad campaigns, we offer as just part of the campaigns, we offer as just part of the campaigns, we offer as just part of the general services that we offer probably general services that we offer probably general services that we offer probably one of the best metric dashboards for one of the best metric dashboards for one of the best metric dashboards for marketing and advertising campaigns of marketing and advertising campaigns of marketing and advertising campaigns of anybody in this industry. Um, I've anybody in this industry. Um, I've anybody in this industry. Um, I've actually had two conversations with two actually had two conversations with two actually had two conversations with two churches this week that either use us in churches this week that either use us in churches this week that either use us in concurrent uh relationship with another concurrent uh relationship with another concurrent uh relationship with another marketing company that provides them marketing company that provides them marketing company that provides them similar services or even overlapping similar services or even overlapping similar services or even overlapping services. And both of them have told me services. And both of them have told me services. And both of them have told me in the last two days that the data that in the last two days that the data that in the last two days that the data that we get from us is the most helpful, the we get from us is the most helpful, the we get from us is the most helpful, the most useful. The reporting tools are the most useful. The reporting tools are the most useful. The reporting tools are the best. Kudos, shout out to our team that best. Kudos, shout out to our team that best. Kudos, shout out to our team that over the really the last couple of years over the really the last couple of years over the really the last couple of years they have worked so hard to build these they have worked so hard to build these they have worked so hard to build these dashboards that we have so that we can dashboards that we have so that we can dashboards that we have so that we can pull website, social media, marketing pull website, social media, marketing pull website, social media, marketing data um and get they you get a monthly data um and get they you get a monthly data um and get they you get a monthly executive report. You can do a deeper executive report. You can do a deeper executive report. You can do a deeper dive into all the basic details. So, um, dive into all the basic details. So, um, dive into all the basic details. So, um, I just I just want to let churches that I just I just want to let churches that I just I just want to let churches that are listening to this know that if you are listening to this know that if you are listening to this know that if you don't even know how to measure what don't even know how to measure what don't even know how to measure what you're getting from your marketing you're getting from your marketing you're getting from your marketing campaigns, you know, it's hard to get campaigns, you know, it's hard to get campaigns, you know, it's hard to get into Meta, it's hard to get into Google

into Meta, it's hard to get into Google into Meta, it's hard to get into Google and really make a lot of sense of it. and really make a lot of sense of it. and really make a lot of sense of it. Our dashboards do that for you. So, Our dashboards do that for you. So, Our dashboards do that for you. So, there's a shameless plug for working there's a shameless plug for working there's a shameless plug for working with mission marketing, but it's with mission marketing, but it's with mission marketing, but it's effective. I I'm going to offer this as effective. I I'm going to offer this as effective. I I'm going to offer this as well. If you're a church that's not well. If you're a church that's not well. If you're a church that's not currently working with missional currently working with missional currently working with missional marketing um and you want to meet with marketing um and you want to meet with marketing um and you want to meet with Jason or me to talk about planning your Jason or me to talk about planning your Jason or me to talk about planning your budget for the upcoming year, we'll get budget for the upcoming year, we'll get budget for the upcoming year, we'll get on a free half hour call with you. So, on a free half hour call with you. So, on a free half hour call with you. So, uh no no obligation, no cost. You can go uh no no obligation, no cost. You can go uh no no obligation, no cost. You can go on our website, missionalmarketing.com. on our website, missionalmarketing.com. on our website, missionalmarketing.com. You can fill out a form and say that you You can fill out a form and say that you You can fill out a form and say that you want to meet with somebody to talk about want to meet with somebody to talk about want to meet with somebody to talk about your marketing budget. Um we'll let our your marketing budget. Um we'll let our your marketing budget. Um we'll let our team know to set that call up with you team know to set that call up with you team know to set that call up with you or or with Jason or with Bart or maybe or or with Jason or with Bart or maybe or or with Jason or with Bart or maybe one of our other coaches. We've got a one of our other coaches. We've got a one of our other coaches. We've got a guy on our team named Zack. If you've guy on our team named Zack. If you've guy on our team named Zack. If you've been to any of our road shows or been to any of our road shows or been to any of our road shows or conference, you know Zach. He's a super conference, you know Zach. He's a super conference, you know Zach. He's a super super sharp guy on our team as well. And super sharp guy on our team as well. And super sharp guy on our team as well. And we can sit down with you and we can help we can sit down with you and we can help we can sit down with you and we can help you roadmap what your budget might need you roadmap what your budget might need you roadmap what your budget might need to be. Um, if it works out that you get to be. Um, if it works out that you get to be. Um, if it works out that you get to work with missional marketing, great. to work with missional marketing, great. to work with missional marketing, great. If not, we're just going to give a half If not, we're just going to give a half If not, we're just going to give a half hour to God's kingdom work because hour to God's kingdom work because hour to God's kingdom work because that's important to us and uh get a that's important to us and uh get a that's important to us and uh get a chance to get to know you and another chance to get to know you and another chance to get to know you and another church. Now, if you happen to be church. Now, if you happen to be church. Now, if you happen to be listening to this podcast episode and listening to this podcast episode and listening to this podcast episode and you are currently working with missional you are currently working with missional you are currently working with missional marketing, please make sure that when marketing, please make sure that when marketing, please make sure that when you have your next coaching call with you have your next coaching call with you have your next coaching call with your coach that you talk about your your coach that you talk about your your coach that you talk about your budget for next year. Uh sometimes it budget for next year. Uh sometimes it budget for next year. Uh sometimes it catches up with us and we kind of caught catches up with us and we kind of caught catches up with us and we kind of caught off guard and it surprises them like, off guard and it surprises them like, off guard and it surprises them like, "Oh shoot, I've got to have my numbers "Oh shoot, I've got to have my numbers "Oh shoot, I've got to have my numbers in like next Thursday and we don't in like next Thursday and we don't in like next Thursday and we don't really have enough lead time to like sit really have enough lead time to like sit really have enough lead time to like sit down and evaluate where we've been and down and evaluate where we've been and down and evaluate where we've been and where we want to go." Uh so make sure where we want to go." Uh so make sure where we want to go." Uh so make sure that you've got that on your radar so that you've got that on your radar so that you've got that on your radar so that you can meet with your missional that you can meet with your missional that you can meet with your missional marketing coach and have that marketing coach and have that marketing coach and have that conversation. Jason, any parting words conversation. Jason, any parting words conversation. Jason, any parting words before we sign off today? No, but uh

before we sign off today? No, but uh before we sign off today? No, but uh budgets uh you know it's those it's budgets uh you know it's those it's budgets uh you know it's those it's coming up. It's something you have to do coming up. It's something you have to do coming up. It's something you have to do every year. So uh try to take advantage every year. So uh try to take advantage every year. So uh try to take advantage of the data that tying the data to your of the data that tying the data to your of the data that tying the data to your to the to the revenue, the money is so to the to the revenue, the money is so to the to the revenue, the money is so important to do. Yeah. Uh my parting important to do. Yeah. Uh my parting important to do. Yeah. Uh my parting word is going to be subscribe. Please, word is going to be subscribe. Please, word is going to be subscribe. Please, if you haven't subscribed wherever if you haven't subscribed wherever if you haven't subscribed wherever you're listening or to our YouTube you're listening or to our YouTube you're listening or to our YouTube channel, make sure that you do that so channel, make sure that you do that so channel, make sure that you do that so that you don't miss any future episodes. that you don't miss any future episodes. that you don't miss any future episodes. And uh with that, on behalf of Jason and And uh with that, on behalf of Jason and And uh with that, on behalf of Jason and myself, Bart, we're going to sign off. myself, Bart, we're going to sign off. myself, Bart, we're going to sign off. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Missional Marketing Podcast.