From Chaos to Clarity | Jason and Bart

We operated, much like a lot of you, on We operated, much like a lot of you, on on some stress and it it wasn't healthy on some stress and it it wasn't healthy on some stress and it it wasn't healthy and Jesus did not build his church so we and Jesus did not build his church so we and Jesus did not build his church so we could live in a bunch of stressbased, could live in a bunch of stressbased, could live in a bunch of stressbased, you know, no margin kind of thing. you know, no margin kind of thing. you know, no margin kind of thing. That's not what the plan A was. Welcome That's not what the plan A was. Welcome That's not what the plan A was. Welcome to episode number 178 of the Missional to episode number 178 of the Missional to episode number 178 of the Missional Marketing Podcast. My name is Bart Blair Marketing Podcast. My name is Bart Blair Marketing Podcast. My name is Bart Blair and I am joined by the CEO of Missional and I am joined by the CEO of Missional and I am joined by the CEO of Missional Marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. Hello, Marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. Hello, Marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. Hello, Jason. Jason. Jason. >> Hi, Bart. Um, happy 178th episode. >> Hi, Bart. Um, happy 178th episode. >> Hi, Bart. Um, happy 178th episode. >> It is the 178th episode. We're cruising >> It is the 178th episode. We're cruising >> It is the 178th episode. We're cruising along here in 2026. Our goal is if we along here in 2026. Our goal is if we along here in 2026. Our goal is if we don't do anything else to break 200. don't do anything else to break 200. don't do anything else to break 200. There's a 200 barrier. That's Carl There's a 200 barrier. That's Carl There's a 200 barrier. That's Carl George, right? Carl George wrote the George, right? Carl George wrote the George, right? Carl George wrote the church growth book on breaking barriers. church growth book on breaking barriers. church growth book on breaking barriers. The 200 barrier was a barrier. We've The 200 barrier was a barrier. We've The 200 barrier was a barrier. We've been working towards 200 for quite a been working towards 200 for quite a been working towards 200 for quite a while, but we're going to break that while, but we're going to break that while, but we're going to break that barrier in 2026. We are. Um, yeah. barrier in 2026. We are. Um, yeah. barrier in 2026. We are. Um, yeah. Thanks uh for those of you who are Thanks uh for those of you who are Thanks uh for those of you who are tuning in. If you're tuning in for the tuning in. If you're tuning in for the tuning in. If you're tuning in for the very first time, uh, please be sure to very first time, uh, please be sure to very first time, uh, please be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your subscribe wherever you listen to your subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast so that you don't miss favorite podcast so that you don't miss favorite podcast so that you don't miss future episodes. We aim to release an future episodes. We aim to release an future episodes. We aim to release an episode every Friday and oftentimes our episode every Friday and oftentimes our episode every Friday and oftentimes our aim is off. So, uh, if you're if you're aim is off. So, uh, if you're if you're aim is off. So, uh, if you're if you're subscribed, you won't miss future subscribed, you won't miss future subscribed, you won't miss future episodes because when we do release episodes because when we do release episodes because when we do release them, they will just be delivered to them, they will just be delivered to them, they will just be delivered to your mobile device. If you're watching your mobile device. If you're watching your mobile device. If you're watching on our YouTube channel, um, on our YouTube channel, um, on our YouTube channel, um, surely there's something better you can surely there's something better you can surely there's something better you can watch while you're listening to the watch while you're listening to the watch while you're listening to the podcast, but whatever. Thanks for tuning podcast, but whatever. Thanks for tuning podcast, but whatever. Thanks for tuning in on the YouTube channel. They dialed in on the YouTube channel. They dialed in on the YouTube channel. They dialed in.

in. in. >> Yeah. Um, you know, our our goal with >> Yeah. Um, you know, our our goal with >> Yeah. Um, you know, our our goal with this podcast is to help churches grow by this podcast is to help churches grow by this podcast is to help churches grow by leveraging digital marketing and leveraging digital marketing and leveraging digital marketing and effective communications. effective communications. effective communications. >> We honestly, we spend most of our time >> We honestly, we spend most of our time >> We honestly, we spend most of our time talking about marketing. Our company is talking about marketing. Our company is talking about marketing. Our company is called what? called what? called what? >> Marketing. Yeah, we're call marketing. >> Marketing. Yeah, we're call marketing. >> Marketing. Yeah, we're call marketing. So, we talk a lot about marketing. We So, we talk a lot about marketing. We So, we talk a lot about marketing. We break our audiences from a church break our audiences from a church break our audiences from a church communications standpoint into we call communications standpoint into we call communications standpoint into we call them three rings. You call them three them three rings. You call them three them three rings. You call them three rings. You you I don't know if you rings. You you I don't know if you rings. You you I don't know if you coined this, but you taught it to me. coined this, but you taught it to me. coined this, but you taught it to me. Three rings, three concentric circles. Three rings, three concentric circles. Three rings, three concentric circles. ring one, the center circle, those are ring one, the center circle, those are ring one, the center circle, those are your people. They're your church people. your people. They're your church people. your people. They're your church people. Uh second circle in those concentric Uh second circle in those concentric Uh second circle in those concentric circles are people in your community circles are people in your community circles are people in your community actively looking for a church. And then actively looking for a church. And then actively looking for a church. And then the third ring is everybody else in your the third ring is everybody else in your the third ring is everybody else in your community who's maybe not necessarily community who's maybe not necessarily community who's maybe not necessarily looking for a church, but they're using looking for a church, but they're using looking for a church, but they're using the internet or they're using AI to the internet or they're using AI to the internet or they're using AI to problem solve. They're looking to DIY problem solve. They're looking to DIY problem solve. They're looking to DIY some problem in their life. And we we some problem in their life. And we we some problem in their life. And we we want to help you intersect uh with ring want to help you intersect uh with ring want to help you intersect uh with ring three people and with ring two people. three people and with ring two people. three people and with ring two people. But today we're going to do something a But today we're going to do something a But today we're going to do something a little bit different. We don't talk little bit different. We don't talk little bit different. We don't talk about ring one a lot, but I want to pick about ring one a lot, but I want to pick about ring one a lot, but I want to pick your brain today, Jason, on your brain today, Jason, on your brain today, Jason, on communication priorities in the church communication priorities in the church communication priorities in the church with ring one. Those are your people.

with ring one. Those are your people. with ring one. Those are your people. People who are in your church management People who are in your church management People who are in your church management software, they follow you on social software, they follow you on social software, they follow you on social media. Hopefully, they're showing up on media. Hopefully, they're showing up on media. Hopefully, they're showing up on Sunday mornings at least sometimes. And Sunday mornings at least sometimes. And Sunday mornings at least sometimes. And you have a lot of experience in the you have a lot of experience in the you have a lot of experience in the church communication space. for our church communication space. for our church communication space. for our audience that might be new or maybe audience that might be new or maybe audience that might be new or maybe they've forgotten, why don't you share a they've forgotten, why don't you share a they've forgotten, why don't you share a little bit about your background, how little bit about your background, how little bit about your background, how you got into ministry and what you did you got into ministry and what you did you got into ministry and what you did before you became the CEO of mission before you became the CEO of mission before you became the CEO of mission marketing. marketing. marketing. >> Yeah, I laugh because God has a great >> Yeah, I laugh because God has a great >> Yeah, I laugh because God has a great sense of humor to uh really lay out the sense of humor to uh really lay out the sense of humor to uh really lay out the journey of my life looking back. He he journey of my life looking back. He he journey of my life looking back. He he was all over it and was all over it and was all over it and my wife and I, we moved to Arizona. We my wife and I, we moved to Arizona. We my wife and I, we moved to Arizona. We got married and we started going to a got married and we started going to a got married and we started going to a pretty large church for the for the pretty large church for the for the pretty large church for the for the time, this is almost 30 years ago. And time, this is almost 30 years ago. And time, this is almost 30 years ago. And uh we found ourselves falling in love uh we found ourselves falling in love uh we found ourselves falling in love with Central Christian Church of Arizona with Central Christian Church of Arizona with Central Christian Church of Arizona and I started volunteering and serving. and I started volunteering and serving. and I started volunteering and serving. I remember one day there was this I remember one day there was this I remember one day there was this ministry fair in the courtyard. You ministry fair in the courtyard. You ministry fair in the courtyard. You could go find just a ministry that you could go find just a ministry that you could go find just a ministry that you think that God's wired you for. And I think that God's wired you for. And I think that God's wired you for. And I look over and I'm like, "Oh, it says look over and I'm like, "Oh, it says look over and I'm like, "Oh, it says marketing. That's interesting." So I marketing. That's interesting." So I marketing. That's interesting." So I walk over to that booth and get to know walk over to that booth and get to know walk over to that booth and get to know the people and I just immediately you the people and I just immediately you the people and I just immediately you know it's the people you just know it's the people you just know it's the people you just immediately become like really good immediately become like really good immediately become like really good friends with because you just they friends with because you just they friends with because you just they they're like you. That's who I met. And they're like you. That's who I met. And they're like you. That's who I met. And next thing I know uh I'm actually next thing I know uh I'm actually next thing I know uh I'm actually helping to start and pioneer a helping to start and pioneer a helping to start and pioneer a communications department. This didn't communications department. This didn't communications department. This didn't exist. And so this is very very early on exist. And so this is very very early on exist. And so this is very very early on in the church days when church in the church days when church in the church days when church communication directors I mean there was communication directors I mean there was communication directors I mean there was there's just a a very few. And so I there's just a a very few. And so I there's just a a very few. And so I started volunteering and then I started started volunteering and then I started started volunteering and then I started serving a little bit. Next thing you

serving a little bit. Next thing you serving a little bit. Next thing you know, they asked would would I come on know, they asked would would I come on know, they asked would would I come on as a contractor, just spend a few hours, as a contractor, just spend a few hours, as a contractor, just spend a few hours, they'll pay me for this and actually they'll pay me for this and actually they'll pay me for this and actually establish a comm's team. I thought, establish a comm's team. I thought, establish a comm's team. I thought, sure. I had no idea, no idea what it sure. I had no idea, no idea what it sure. I had no idea, no idea what it would be like working at a church and would be like working at a church and would be like working at a church and doing this. So over the course of a doing this. So over the course of a doing this. So over the course of a couple years, I would take a couple couple years, I would take a couple couple years, I would take a couple steps forward and one step back. And steps forward and one step back. And steps forward and one step back. And that's where I learned the phrase, "Hey, that's where I learned the phrase, "Hey, that's where I learned the phrase, "Hey, you're going to fail. at least fail you're going to fail. at least fail you're going to fail. at least fail forward because you're going and that's forward because you're going and that's forward because you're going and that's okay. Failure is a is a really great okay. Failure is a is a really great okay. Failure is a is a really great tool for you to learn from. You never tool for you to learn from. You never tool for you to learn from. You never really learn from your successes. You really learn from your successes. You really learn from your successes. You always learn from your failure. You always learn from your failure. You always learn from your failure. You should be. And so I did that and then should be. And so I did that and then should be. And so I did that and then after a while they're like, "Won't you after a while they're like, "Won't you after a while they're like, "Won't you just pull up a chair and stay here just pull up a chair and stay here just pull up a chair and stay here full-time." So I did and I spent 11 full-time." So I did and I spent 11 full-time." So I did and I spent 11 years as a communication director at years as a communication director at years as a communication director at Central and I went through it all. Central and I went through it all. Central and I went through it all. Uh, so Central, give us a little bit of Uh, so Central, give us a little bit of Uh, so Central, give us a little bit of context of what the church looked like context of what the church looked like context of what the church looked like when you got there and what it looked when you got there and what it looked when you got there and what it looked like when you left because it was very like when you left because it was very like when you left because it was very different. different. different. >> Yeah, it was. You know, when when I >> Yeah, it was. You know, when when I >> Yeah, it was. You know, when when I first got there, we were on one campus first got there, we were on one campus first got there, we were on one campus and and running a, you know, couple and and running a, you know, couple and and running a, you know, couple thousand 2500 people or so and it was thousand 2500 people or so and it was thousand 2500 people or so and it was growing. Cal Jernigan was our our new growing. Cal Jernigan was our our new growing. Cal Jernigan was our our new lead pastor. He'd been on staff for a lead pastor. He'd been on staff for a lead pastor. He'd been on staff for a while and and he he he's so such a great while and and he he he's so such a great while and and he he he's so such a great communicator. So just Cal alone, our communicator. So just Cal alone, our communicator. So just Cal alone, our church was growing because he had such church was growing because he had such church was growing because he had such important things to say and God was important things to say and God was important things to say and God was working through him. But the ministry as working through him. But the ministry as working through him. But the ministry as a whole, the church as a whole was just a whole, the church as a whole was just a whole, the church as a whole was just really sweet. Uh a lot of joy. Uh really sweet. Uh a lot of joy. Uh really sweet. Uh a lot of joy. Uh everybody loved coming to Central. So everybody loved coming to Central. So everybody loved coming to Central. So you got to work in a place where the you got to work in a place where the you got to work in a place where the staff was unified uh and and and the

staff was unified uh and and and the staff was unified uh and and and the congregation was on fire for God and we congregation was on fire for God and we congregation was on fire for God and we had a phenomenal worship uh band. So you had a phenomenal worship uh band. So you had a phenomenal worship uh band. So you had a really great, you know, core of had a really great, you know, core of had a really great, you know, core of goal that was going on there, but we had goal that was going on there, but we had goal that was going on there, but we had big plans. And so we actually relocated big plans. And so we actually relocated big plans. And so we actually relocated and well, we were going to relocate to and well, we were going to relocate to and well, we were going to relocate to another city in the Phoenix area. We another city in the Phoenix area. We another city in the Phoenix area. We actually ended up purchasing a bunch of actually ended up purchasing a bunch of actually ended up purchasing a bunch of land and we built basically two hubs. We land and we built basically two hubs. We land and we built basically two hubs. We didn't realize that at the time, but we didn't realize that at the time, but we didn't realize that at the time, but we buil we built two hubs. Uh instead of buil we built two hubs. Uh instead of buil we built two hubs. Uh instead of just a, you know, building another just a, you know, building another just a, you know, building another campus, it was like another hub of of of campus, it was like another hub of of of campus, it was like another hub of of of Central. And the goal was to to build Central. And the goal was to to build Central. And the goal was to to build that campus. We had 165 acres. that campus. We had 165 acres. that campus. We had 165 acres. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So imagine what we were we were going to >> So imagine what we were we were going to >> So imagine what we were we were going to build a master big plan and just go all build a master big plan and just go all build a master big plan and just go all out. out. out. >> Uh well that that changed and uh we >> Uh well that that changed and uh we >> Uh well that that changed and uh we thought about that time our my good thought about that time our my good thought about that time our my good friend Jim Tberlin we we both know Jim. friend Jim Tberlin we we both know Jim. friend Jim Tberlin we we both know Jim. Jim's the multi-sight guy. We had him in Jim's the multi-sight guy. We had him in Jim's the multi-sight guy. We had him in and he's thinking yeah you guys may not and he's thinking yeah you guys may not and he's thinking yeah you guys may not want to build that 7,000 seat worship want to build that 7,000 seat worship want to build that 7,000 seat worship center in Gilbert. Even though that center in Gilbert. Even though that center in Gilbert. Even though that probably would have worked because probably would have worked because probably would have worked because there's so many people, just the model there's so many people, just the model there's so many people, just the model was different. So during my time at was different. So during my time at was different. So during my time at Central, it changed from having like two Central, it changed from having like two Central, it changed from having like two hubs to let's have two campuses, let's hubs to let's have two campuses, let's hubs to let's have two campuses, let's add a third campus and a fourth campus add a third campus and a fourth campus add a third campus and a fourth campus and a fifth campus and so on and so and a fifth campus and so on and so and a fifth campus and so on and so forth. And so that's what we did. And forth. And so that's what we did. And forth. And so that's what we did. And and and also during my time I went from and and also during my time I went from and and also during my time I went from it was just me and another person. Uh we it was just me and another person. Uh we it was just me and another person. Uh we we didn't really we knew what we were we didn't really we knew what we were we didn't really we knew what we were doing a little bit, not much. And by the doing a little bit, not much. And by the doing a little bit, not much. And by the time I left, we kind of had a we had a time I left, we kind of had a we had a time I left, we kind of had a we had a full team. So, I got to grow my budget

full team. So, I got to grow my budget full team. So, I got to grow my budget and my staff over those years. And so, and my staff over those years. And so, and my staff over those years. And so, our attendance was just shot through the our attendance was just shot through the our attendance was just shot through the roof. We we probably all tripled roof. We we probably all tripled roof. We we probably all tripled basically by the time I w I left. And uh basically by the time I w I left. And uh basically by the time I w I left. And uh it's still my home. It was still my home it's still my home. It was still my home it's still my home. It was still my home church. It was my home church for 25 church. It was my home church for 25 church. It was my home church for 25 years for for my wife and I. We recently years for for my wife and I. We recently years for for my wife and I. We recently moved over to another church. Uh not moved over to another church. Uh not moved over to another church. Uh not because anything wrong with Central, because anything wrong with Central, because anything wrong with Central, just a a new a new change. Uh but just a a new a new change. Uh but just a a new a new change. Uh but Central is is a phenomenal phenomenal Central is is a phenomenal phenomenal Central is is a phenomenal phenomenal church. church. church. Okay. So, so clear picture here. Uh Okay. So, so clear picture here. Uh Okay. So, so clear picture here. Uh larger church, fast growing church. Um larger church, fast growing church. Um larger church, fast growing church. Um I'm going to guess a lot of a lot of I'm going to guess a lot of a lot of I'm going to guess a lot of a lot of ministry happening, a lot of ministry ministry happening, a lot of ministry ministry happening, a lot of ministry opportunities. You know, it's kind of opportunities. You know, it's kind of opportunities. You know, it's kind of interesting. I don't know what the model interesting. I don't know what the model interesting. I don't know what the model at at Central was, but you know, you're at at Central was, but you know, you're at at Central was, but you know, you're talking about, you know, our early 2000s talking about, you know, our early 2000s talking about, you know, our early 2000s and many churches, especially those that and many churches, especially those that and many churches, especially those that had somewhat of an attractional uh base had somewhat of an attractional uh base had somewhat of an attractional uh base to them, uh would spin up a lot of to them, uh would spin up a lot of to them, uh would spin up a lot of ministries, a lot of different kinds of ministries, a lot of different kinds of ministries, a lot of different kinds of ministries to minister to a lot of ministries to minister to a lot of ministries to minister to a lot of different kinds of people. I think in different kinds of people. I think in different kinds of people. I think in recent years, a lot of churches have recent years, a lot of churches have recent years, a lot of churches have have started to learn that uh simplicity have started to learn that uh simplicity have started to learn that uh simplicity can actually go a long way. So maybe not can actually go a long way. So maybe not can actually go a long way. So maybe not quite as many ministries, but in your quite as many ministries, but in your quite as many ministries, but in your heyday at Central's heyday at that time, heyday at Central's heyday at that time, heyday at Central's heyday at that time, lots and lots of competing ministries.

lots and lots of competing ministries. lots and lots of competing ministries. From your experience, Jason, what were From your experience, Jason, what were From your experience, Jason, what were some of the biggest challenges that you some of the biggest challenges that you some of the biggest challenges that you faced when you were trying to balance faced when you were trying to balance faced when you were trying to balance communication requests from all these communication requests from all these communication requests from all these different ministries that were all vying different ministries that were all vying different ministries that were all vying for the congregation's attention? We've for the congregation's attention? We've for the congregation's attention? We've got all these people. We all have a got all these people. We all have a got all these people. We all have a message that we want to deliver. How message that we want to deliver. How message that we want to deliver. How were you navigating everything that was were you navigating everything that was were you navigating everything that was coming in and deciding what got what got coming in and deciding what got what got coming in and deciding what got what got airplay and what didn't? airplay and what didn't? airplay and what didn't? >> Well, I I I got to be honest with you. >> Well, I I I got to be honest with you. >> Well, I I I got to be honest with you. In the early days, I just said yes to In the early days, I just said yes to In the early days, I just said yes to everything. everything. everything. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I didn't have a backbone to say no. And >> I didn't have a backbone to say no. And >> I didn't have a backbone to say no. And I don't know if it was because I didn't I don't know if it was because I didn't I don't know if it was because I didn't feel like I had the clout to be able to feel like I had the clout to be able to feel like I had the clout to be able to say no. Um, you know, I I felt like I say no. Um, you know, I I felt like I say no. Um, you know, I I felt like I needed to please people, right? So, you needed to please people, right? So, you needed to please people, right? So, you just say yes to that and not realizing just say yes to that and not realizing just say yes to that and not realizing what you just said yes to. And it it it what you just said yes to. And it it it what you just said yes to. And it it it it quickly backfired because when I it quickly backfired because when I it quickly backfired because when I would say yes to to the ministries and would say yes to to the ministries and would say yes to to the ministries and something would happen even and and we something would happen even and and we something would happen even and and we did everything we could, but that that did everything we could, but that that did everything we could, but that that event um or that group, it kind of it event um or that group, it kind of it event um or that group, it kind of it would fall flat. If it fell flat, then would fall flat. If it fell flat, then would fall flat. If it fell flat, then they would blame marketing.

they would blame marketing. they would blame marketing. And and I just remember in those early And and I just remember in those early And and I just remember in those early years of I wasn't on the leadership team years of I wasn't on the leadership team years of I wasn't on the leadership team yet and and and the leadership team yet and and and the leadership team yet and and and the leadership team would go off and meet and then come back would go off and meet and then come back would go off and meet and then come back and my boss would say, "Well, hey, did and my boss would say, "Well, hey, did and my boss would say, "Well, hey, did you feel the tires running over your you feel the tires running over your you feel the tires running over your face this whole week?" I'm like, "What face this whole week?" I'm like, "What face this whole week?" I'm like, "What are you talking about?" Yeah, you got are you talking about?" Yeah, you got are you talking about?" Yeah, you got thrown under the bus a lot. What? Yeah. thrown under the bus a lot. What? Yeah. thrown under the bus a lot. What? Yeah. Yeah. Ministries were just sort of Yeah. Ministries were just sort of Yeah. Ministries were just sort of saying, "Hey, this thing failed just saying, "Hey, this thing failed just saying, "Hey, this thing failed just because communications didn't really because communications didn't really because communications didn't really help us out as much as they they they help us out as much as they they they help us out as much as they they they said they would." I'm going, "Oh." So, I said they would." I'm going, "Oh." So, I said they would." I'm going, "Oh." So, I I I learned a ton of you got to have I I learned a ton of you got to have I I learned a ton of you got to have some structure. And I didn't really know some structure. And I didn't really know some structure. And I didn't really know this walking into this role. I didn't this walking into this role. I didn't this walking into this role. I didn't realize it was cutthroat. I also didn't realize it was cutthroat. I also didn't realize it was cutthroat. I also didn't realize it was super political in a realize it was super political in a realize it was super political in a sense of uh yeah, hey, what do I need to sense of uh yeah, hey, what do I need to sense of uh yeah, hey, what do I need to do to make sure I'm in that announcement do to make sure I'm in that announcement do to make sure I'm in that announcement or what do I need to do to get sure I'm or what do I need to do to get sure I'm or what do I need to do to get sure I'm talked about on the stage? You know, talked about on the stage? You know, talked about on the stage? You know, it's it's like what can you do for me? it's it's like what can you do for me? it's it's like what can you do for me? I'll do for you kind of stuff. And I and I'll do for you kind of stuff. And I and I'll do for you kind of stuff. And I and I realized that if I if I said no to I realized that if I if I said no to I realized that if I if I said no to them, all they would do is go to the them, all they would do is go to the them, all they would do is go to the executive pastor and say, "Yeah, Hamrock executive pastor and say, "Yeah, Hamrock executive pastor and say, "Yeah, Hamrock said we can't do that. Can you go talk said we can't do that. Can you go talk said we can't do that. Can you go talk to him and tell him?" So, sure enough, to him and tell him?" So, sure enough, to him and tell him?" So, sure enough, executive, "Hey, we really need what can executive, "Hey, we really need what can executive, "Hey, we really need what can you do to help push that?" Um, okay.

you do to help push that?" Um, okay. you do to help push that?" Um, okay. Well, the executive pastor's walking in Well, the executive pastor's walking in Well, the executive pastor's walking in my office. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, I had my office. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, I had my office. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, I had so much of that that I learned, okay, so much of that that I learned, okay, so much of that that I learned, okay, this isn't working. And you can't just this isn't working. And you can't just this isn't working. And you can't just be, you know, you can't make friends, be, you know, you can't make friends, be, you know, you can't make friends, you know, in the sense of like, oh, if you know, in the sense of like, oh, if you know, in the sense of like, oh, if you're my best friend, just come tell you're my best friend, just come tell you're my best friend, just come tell me. I I'll take care of you. You can't me. I I'll take care of you. You can't me. I I'll take care of you. You can't do that because it's going to backfire. do that because it's going to backfire. do that because it's going to backfire. You can't make promises you don't You can't make promises you don't You can't make promises you don't >> keep. You can't even control >> keep. You can't even control >> keep. You can't even control >> what you're going to keep. I couldn't >> what you're going to keep. I couldn't >> what you're going to keep. I couldn't control what was going to be said on control what was going to be said on control what was going to be said on stage. stage. stage. >> So, I had to learn to create margin and >> So, I had to learn to create margin and >> So, I had to learn to create margin and create uh boundaries and create tears, create uh boundaries and create tears, create uh boundaries and create tears, which we'll we'll probably get into. which we'll we'll probably get into. which we'll we'll probably get into. >> Yeah. I you know, one of the things that >> Yeah. I you know, one of the things that >> Yeah. I you know, one of the things that we've said before on this podcast is we've said before on this podcast is we've said before on this podcast is that, you know, every minister in your that, you know, every minister in your that, you know, every minister in your church, whether you're in your large church, whether you're in your large church, whether you're in your large church or small church, whether you're church or small church, whether you're church or small church, whether you're talking about staff ministers or lay talking about staff ministers or lay talking about staff ministers or lay ministers, every minister's ministry is ministers, every minister's ministry is ministers, every minister's ministry is the most important ministry in the the most important ministry in the the most important ministry in the church to them. That's And you want it church to them. That's And you want it church to them. That's And you want it to be you you want the women's ministry to be you you want the women's ministry to be you you want the women's ministry leader to believe that the women's leader to believe that the women's leader to believe that the women's ministry is the most important ministry ministry is the most important ministry ministry is the most important ministry in the church.

in the church. in the church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You want the children's ministry >> Yeah. You want the children's ministry >> Yeah. You want the children's ministry director, the children's minister to director, the children's minister to director, the children's minister to believe that the children's ministry is believe that the children's ministry is believe that the children's ministry is the most important ministry, right? That the most important ministry, right? That the most important ministry, right? That that's what you want. But obviously, not that's what you want. But obviously, not that's what you want. But obviously, not every ministry is moving the needle in every ministry is moving the needle in every ministry is moving the needle in every season uh in the same way for every season uh in the same way for every season uh in the same way for people's both spiritual growth as well people's both spiritual growth as well people's both spiritual growth as well as the church's growth. Um let's let's as the church's growth. Um let's let's as the church's growth. Um let's let's pivot and talk about your tiered system. pivot and talk about your tiered system. pivot and talk about your tiered system. I do have a question here I want to get I do have a question here I want to get I do have a question here I want to get to in just a minute about discerning the to in just a minute about discerning the to in just a minute about discerning the difference between uh urgency versus difference between uh urgency versus difference between uh urgency versus importance and I want to table that for importance and I want to table that for importance and I want to table that for just a second. I I don't know if that just a second. I I don't know if that just a second. I I don't know if that fits into the the tiers, but let's let's fits into the the tiers, but let's let's fits into the the tiers, but let's let's talk a little bit about how you tiered talk a little bit about how you tiered talk a little bit about how you tiered different ministries and how that played different ministries and how that played different ministries and how that played out in the in the structures you were out in the in the structures you were out in the in the structures you were creating. creating. creating. >> It took time to learn this, but I I kind >> It took time to learn this, but I I kind >> It took time to learn this, but I I kind of recognized that uh we were almost of recognized that uh we were almost of recognized that uh we were almost like an agency and we had clients and like an agency and we had clients and like an agency and we had clients and and I wanted to take care of my clients. and I wanted to take care of my clients. and I wanted to take care of my clients. That was my job. I mean, they're That was my job. I mean, they're That was my job. I mean, they're co-workers, but you get what I'm saying. co-workers, but you get what I'm saying. co-workers, but you get what I'm saying. Like, we we we saw ourselves as we're Like, we we we saw ourselves as we're Like, we we we saw ourselves as we're here to serve you. We actually fell here to serve you. We actually fell here to serve you. We actually fell under the operation side of the of the under the operation side of the of the under the operation side of the of the church. We weren't a ministry. We're church. We weren't a ministry. We're church. We weren't a ministry. We're under operations. So, I got to see them under operations. So, I got to see them under operations. So, I got to see them as my clients. And so, I thought to as my clients. And so, I thought to as my clients. And so, I thought to myself, well, self, um, if you had these myself, well, self, um, if you had these myself, well, self, um, if you had these clients you're looking at, who's number clients you're looking at, who's number clients you're looking at, who's number one? Who's number two? Who's number one? Who's number two? Who's number one? Who's number two? Who's number three? And that that that was that was three? And that that that was that was three? And that that that was that was easy, right? That was super easy. If the easy, right? That was super easy. If the easy, right? That was super easy. If the elders or Cal came asking for something, elders or Cal came asking for something, elders or Cal came asking for something, they got it. I mean, they're they're at they got it. I mean, they're they're at they got it. I mean, they're they're at the top of the food chain, right? The the top of the food chain, right? The the top of the food chain, right? The boss is walking in. The boss is walking

boss is walking in. The boss is walking boss is walking in. The boss is walking in. You're going, "Yes, sir. What can I in. You're going, "Yes, sir. What can I in. You're going, "Yes, sir. What can I do for you?" So, everything else came to do for you?" So, everything else came to do for you?" So, everything else came to a standstill because he needed something a standstill because he needed something a standstill because he needed something or or the elders. And that was very rare or or the elders. And that was very rare or or the elders. And that was very rare on the elders, but you get what I'm on the elders, but you get what I'm on the elders, but you get what I'm saying there. Then I realized, well, saying there. Then I realized, well, saying there. Then I realized, well, after him, after him, after him, the weekend show I the the weekend show, the weekend show I the the weekend show, the weekend show I the the weekend show, the weekend services. Now, we had the weekend services. Now, we had the weekend services. Now, we had Saturday and Sunday services. So, why do Saturday and Sunday services. So, why do Saturday and Sunday services. So, why do I call it the show? It's well, it's what I call it the show? It's well, it's what I call it the show? It's well, it's what happens. This is this is where everybody happens. This is this is where everybody happens. This is this is where everybody gets together. So, the weekend service gets together. So, the weekend service gets together. So, the weekend service became my number two client. If we became my number two client. If we became my number two client. If we needed to create something for the needed to create something for the needed to create something for the weekend, it it got top priority. I mean, weekend, it it got top priority. I mean, weekend, it it got top priority. I mean, what are we supposed to say no to that what are we supposed to say no to that what are we supposed to say no to that to say yes to a global outreach trip to say yes to a global outreach trip to say yes to a global outreach trip thing? thing? thing? >> And when you say when you say weekend, >> And when you say when you say weekend, >> And when you say when you say weekend, you're specifically talking about the you're specifically talking about the you're specifically talking about the worship experience experience. worship experience experience. worship experience experience. >> And there are a lot of things that >> And there are a lot of things that >> And there are a lot of things that happen on the weekend, right? There's happen on the weekend, right? There's happen on the weekend, right? There's children's ministry. There might be children's ministry. There might be children's ministry. There might be Bible studies and Bible classes, but Bible studies and Bible classes, but Bible studies and Bible classes, but you're talking specifically about that you're talking specifically about that you're talking specifically about that 60 75 minute worship experience in the 60 75 minute worship experience in the 60 75 minute worship experience in the big room with everybody together. big room with everybody together. big room with everybody together. >> That's correct. And we always had our >> That's correct. And we always had our >> That's correct. And we always had our our weekly rhythms. I'm talking like, our weekly rhythms. I'm talking like, our weekly rhythms. I'm talking like, you know, we have slides to create or you know, we have slides to create or you know, we have slides to create or back in these days it was is make the back in these days it was is make the back in these days it was is make the bulletin. I'm talking about that extra.

bulletin. I'm talking about that extra. bulletin. I'm talking about that extra. >> I thought you were gonna say back in >> I thought you were gonna say back in >> I thought you were gonna say back in those days it was the transparencies, those days it was the transparencies, those days it was the transparencies, but that was a little a little before but that was a little a little before but that was a little a little before your time, right? your time, right? your time, right? >> Well, I know about him, but that was >> Well, I know about him, but that was >> Well, I know about him, but that was before my time on staff. Yes. So, um, of before my time on staff. Yes. So, um, of before my time on staff. Yes. So, um, of course we had our weekly rhythms, but it course we had our weekly rhythms, but it course we had our weekly rhythms, but it was when something needed to be done or was when something needed to be done or was when something needed to be done or ordered because, you know, uh, weekend ordered because, you know, uh, weekend ordered because, you know, uh, weekend was going to do the the service was tied was going to do the the service was tied was going to do the the service was tied into Cal's message or, oh, maybe it was into Cal's message or, oh, maybe it was into Cal's message or, oh, maybe it was all baptism weekend and they they all baptism weekend and they they all baptism weekend and they they decided to do that last minute because decided to do that last minute because decided to do that last minute because Cal had an idea and okay, let's make Cal had an idea and okay, let's make Cal had an idea and okay, let's make that happen. Okay, now I gotta pivot. I that happen. Okay, now I gotta pivot. I that happen. Okay, now I gotta pivot. I gotta I gotta do some stuff, right? I gotta I gotta do some stuff, right? I gotta I gotta do some stuff, right? I the weekend service in the worship the weekend service in the worship the weekend service in the worship center was my was my number two. was my center was my was my number two. was my center was my was my number two. was my number two client for me after Cal and number two client for me after Cal and number two client for me after Cal and the Elders. the Elders. the Elders. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. After that, then I had to kind of >> Yeah. After that, then I had to kind of >> Yeah. After that, then I had to kind of figure out, well, where do we go from figure out, well, where do we go from figure out, well, where do we go from here? Well, in my opinion, it was here? Well, in my opinion, it was here? Well, in my opinion, it was anything that was all church related, anything that was all church related, anything that was all church related, like big events. So, if it was Easter or like big events. So, if it was Easter or like big events. So, if it was Easter or Christmas, I know that happens in the Christmas, I know that happens in the Christmas, I know that happens in the room, but sometimes it happens outside, room, but sometimes it happens outside, room, but sometimes it happens outside, too. What, you know, what do we need to too. What, you know, what do we need to too. What, you know, what do we need to do to get people in the courtyard? For do to get people in the courtyard? For do to get people in the courtyard? For us at at Central, we have a Thanksgiving us at at Central, we have a Thanksgiving us at at Central, we have a Thanksgiving Eve service every year. So that's that Eve service every year. So that's that Eve service every year. So that's that was a that's a Wednesday night and so was a that's a Wednesday night and so was a that's a Wednesday night and so that was an all church thing. So we had that was an all church thing. So we had that was an all church thing. So we had to do things to prepare for that to do things to prepare for that to do things to prepare for that Wednesday night thing that became my Wednesday night thing that became my Wednesday night thing that became my number three. So, if it's all church, number three. So, if it's all church, number three. So, if it's all church, big event or anything like that, third big event or anything like that, third big event or anything like that, third most important client. After that, most important client. After that, most important client. After that, uh, pick a card, any card.

uh, pick a card, any card. uh, pick a card, any card. After that, it was it really was I I After that, it was it really was I I After that, it was it really was I I tried to make well, I just followed our tried to make well, I just followed our tried to make well, I just followed our core values. Kids and students, we core values. Kids and students, we core values. Kids and students, we always place above adults, right? This always place above adults, right? This always place above adults, right? This this is kind of an easy no-brainer. So, this is kind of an easy no-brainer. So, this is kind of an easy no-brainer. So, kids and students became like pretty kids and students became like pretty kids and students became like pretty darn important to me. But right after darn important to me. But right after darn important to me. But right after that would be like small groups which is that would be like small groups which is that would be like small groups which is adults. We had a men's ministry, a adults. We had a men's ministry, a adults. We had a men's ministry, a women's ministry. We had missions, local women's ministry. We had missions, local women's ministry. We had missions, local and global. We had care ministries. So and global. We had care ministries. So and global. We had care ministries. So they they didn't really it wasn't like I they they didn't really it wasn't like I they they didn't really it wasn't like I peck order all the way. Who was number peck order all the way. Who was number peck order all the way. Who was number who was the last one? It wasn't really who was the last one? It wasn't really who was the last one? It wasn't really that. It was more of a cluster. It's that. It was more of a cluster. It's that. It was more of a cluster. It's like after kids and and students had to like after kids and and students had to like after kids and and students had to have like adults which you could tie in have like adults which you could tie in have like adults which you could tie in care, you could tie in global, you could care, you could tie in global, you could care, you could tie in global, you could tie in men's or women's, that kind of a tie in men's or women's, that kind of a tie in men's or women's, that kind of a thing that fit in there. And the goal thing that fit in there. And the goal thing that fit in there. And the goal was to make room for everybody. was to make room for everybody. was to make room for everybody. What it wasn't like sorry u you don't What it wasn't like sorry u you don't What it wasn't like sorry u you don't get anything. You everybody got an get anything. You everybody got an get anything. You everybody got an answer and the answer was some sort of answer and the answer was some sort of answer and the answer was some sort of yes. We we're here to serve you. You may yes. We we're here to serve you. You may yes. We we're here to serve you. You may not get the stage announcements you want not get the stage announcements you want not get the stage announcements you want because you're you reached like 10% of because you're you reached like 10% of because you're you reached like 10% of the room. Not going to happen. But what the room. Not going to happen. But what the room. Not going to happen. But what we can do is help you do A, B, and C.

we can do is help you do A, B, and C. we can do is help you do A, B, and C. And so we kind of had to learn how to And so we kind of had to learn how to And so we kind of had to learn how to navigate that and in those conversations navigate that and in those conversations navigate that and in those conversations and paint that picture. And I'll tell and paint that picture. And I'll tell and paint that picture. And I'll tell you the biggest thing we did was you the biggest thing we did was you the biggest thing we did was time. Let's get in front of you early time. Let's get in front of you early time. Let's get in front of you early enough so that we're not crashing at enough so that we're not crashing at enough so that we're not crashing at Thursday. You're not coming into my Thursday. You're not coming into my Thursday. You're not coming into my office on Thursday. You need something office on Thursday. You need something office on Thursday. You need something by Saturday. The answer is going to be by Saturday. The answer is going to be by Saturday. The answer is going to be flat out no. Why did you wait so long? flat out no. Why did you wait so long? flat out no. Why did you wait so long? So that's that political thing where you So that's that political thing where you So that's that political thing where you really want to be building relationships really want to be building relationships really want to be building relationships with your ministry so that hey, what's with your ministry so that hey, what's with your ministry so that hey, what's it's January, we're doing this in it's January, we're doing this in it's January, we're doing this in January. What's 2020? You should have January. What's 2020? You should have January. What's 2020? You should have already had this conversation. What does already had this conversation. What does already had this conversation. What does 2020 26 look like? Let's look at your 2020 26 look like? Let's look at your 2020 26 look like? Let's look at your church, you know, your why calendar for church, you know, your why calendar for church, you know, your why calendar for the whole year and and break it down by the whole year and and break it down by the whole year and and break it down by quarters. First quarter, second quarter, quarters. First quarter, second quarter, quarters. First quarter, second quarter, third quarter, fourth quarter. Because I third quarter, fourth quarter. Because I third quarter, fourth quarter. Because I I also put in there some structure to I also put in there some structure to I also put in there some structure to say, "Hey, if you want something, you say, "Hey, if you want something, you say, "Hey, if you want something, you can't come to us the week of. You got to can't come to us the week of. You got to can't come to us the week of. You got to come to us at least two to three weeks come to us at least two to three weeks come to us at least two to three weeks out for something minimal. If it's out for something minimal. If it's out for something minimal. If it's bigger, I need four to six weeks." bigger, I need four to six weeks." bigger, I need four to six weeks." >> Yeah. J, I want to just kind of double >> Yeah. J, I want to just kind of double >> Yeah. J, I want to just kind of double click on on one thing that you said click on on one thing that you said click on on one thing that you said there because I want to make sure that there because I want to make sure that there because I want to make sure that our audience actually hears and our audience actually hears and our audience actually hears and understands what you meant. Um, you said understands what you meant. Um, you said understands what you meant. Um, you said that an an announcement probably won't that an an announcement probably won't that an an announcement probably won't get stage time that only hits a small get stage time that only hits a small get stage time that only hits a small percentage of people in the room. And I percentage of people in the room. And I percentage of people in the room. And I I'll use this as an example because I I'll use this as an example because I I'll use this as an example because I see this one in churches a lot. Uh, we see this one in churches a lot. Uh, we see this one in churches a lot. Uh, we have a MOPS group. We have a mother of have a MOPS group. We have a mother of have a MOPS group. We have a mother of preschoolers ministry and we're a church preschoolers ministry and we're a church preschoolers ministry and we're a church of 300 and that might be 10 to 15 moms of 300 and that might be 10 to 15 moms of 300 and that might be 10 to 15 moms in our entire congregation. The MOPS

in our entire congregation. The MOPS in our entire congregation. The MOPS ministry is not likely to get a platform ministry is not likely to get a platform ministry is not likely to get a platform pullpit announcement on Sunday morning pullpit announcement on Sunday morning pullpit announcement on Sunday morning because in a church of 300 people, we're because in a church of 300 people, we're because in a church of 300 people, we're only talking about 10 or 15 people that only talking about 10 or 15 people that only talking about 10 or 15 people that we're communicating to. I think we're communicating to. I think we're communicating to. I think sometimes I'm going to I'm going to say sometimes I'm going to I'm going to say sometimes I'm going to I'm going to say something that's going to sound a little something that's going to sound a little something that's going to sound a little bit harsh. bit harsh. bit harsh. >> Sometimes I think our ministers are more >> Sometimes I think our ministers are more >> Sometimes I think our ministers are more concerned with just making sure that concerned with just making sure that concerned with just making sure that everybody in the church knows that we're everybody in the church knows that we're everybody in the church knows that we're doing stuff more so than actually doing stuff more so than actually doing stuff more so than actually effectively communicating to the people effectively communicating to the people effectively communicating to the people who most need to know what's happening, who most need to know what's happening, who most need to know what's happening, when it's happening, and where they're when it's happening, and where they're when it's happening, and where they're supposed to be. And so there there's a supposed to be. And so there there's a supposed to be. And so there there's a little bit of a tension there. I've I've little bit of a tension there. I've I've little bit of a tension there. I've I've seen that happen. It's like that that seen that happen. It's like that that seen that happen. It's like that that person who leads that particular person who leads that particular person who leads that particular ministry, while they want their ministry ministry, while they want their ministry ministry, while they want their ministry to be effective, they also want the to be effective, they also want the to be effective, they also want the whole church body to know about the whole church body to know about the whole church body to know about the ministry that they're doing, even though ministry that they're doing, even though ministry that they're doing, even though not everyone can or will participate in not everyone can or will participate in not everyone can or will participate in it. So, those are some more of those it. So, those are some more of those it. So, those are some more of those political and relational things that you political and relational things that you political and relational things that you have to kind of navigate. So, I tell you have to kind of navigate. So, I tell you have to kind of navigate. So, I tell you what, so like that's a perfect example, what, so like that's a perfect example, what, so like that's a perfect example, mothers of preschoolers where there's mothers of preschoolers where there's mothers of preschoolers where there's only so many of those in your church. only so many of those in your church. only so many of those in your church. And you're probably right, it's 10 15% And you're probably right, it's 10 15% And you're probably right, it's 10 15% maybe. You should know that. And you maybe. You should know that. And you maybe. You should know that. And you could I didn't used get to know this could I didn't used get to know this could I didn't used get to know this because we didn't have sophisticated because we didn't have sophisticated because we didn't have sophisticated church management systems back in the church management systems back in the church management systems back in the day. Today you should know all the moms day. Today you should know all the moms day. Today you should know all the moms who have children that are in that that who have children that are in that that who have children that are in that that age group and and know and by the way age group and and know and by the way age group and and know and by the way and you do know and they know of their and you do know and they know of their and you do know and they know of their of their girlfriend other girlfriends of their girlfriend other girlfriends of their girlfriend other girlfriends who have kids of the same age. So that's who have kids of the same age. So that's who have kids of the same age. So that's how you can really impact that ministry how you can really impact that ministry how you can really impact that ministry by doing that. However, on the flip side by doing that. However, on the flip side by doing that. However, on the flip side of that, if we're doing a women's of that, if we're doing a women's of that, if we're doing a women's conference, well that's likely half the conference, well that's likely half the conference, well that's likely half the room. So the women's conference is going

room. So the women's conference is going room. So the women's conference is going to get an all church from the stage to get an all church from the stage to get an all church from the stage because it reaches half the room. because it reaches half the room. because it reaches half the room. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I could say the same thing about >> And I could say the same thing about >> And I could say the same thing about men. If it's some, you know, we're going men. If it's some, you know, we're going men. If it's some, you know, we're going to do a young, you know, young adult to do a young, you know, young adult to do a young, you know, young adult men's thing, we're not mentioning that. men's thing, we're not mentioning that. men's thing, we're not mentioning that. >> But if we're doing a a men's conference, >> But if we're doing a a men's conference, >> But if we're doing a a men's conference, we are going to mention that. So the the we are going to mention that. So the the we are going to mention that. So the the key here, guys, is that you you don't key here, guys, is that you you don't key here, guys, is that you you don't want to have to establish those rules want to have to establish those rules want to have to establish those rules and those boundaries yourself. What you and those boundaries yourself. What you and those boundaries yourself. What you want to do is write them out and go get want to do is write them out and go get want to do is write them out and go get blessed by your leadership. Yeah. When blessed by your leadership. Yeah. When blessed by your leadership. Yeah. When you get blessed by the lead pastor and you get blessed by the lead pastor and you get blessed by the lead pastor and the executive pastor and the staff the executive pastor and the staff the executive pastor and the staff agrees to, yeah, this these are the agrees to, yeah, this these are the agrees to, yeah, this these are the terms and this is kind of the parameters terms and this is kind of the parameters terms and this is kind of the parameters of how we're going to decide what gets a of how we're going to decide what gets a of how we're going to decide what gets a stage announcements for versus what stage announcements for versus what stage announcements for versus what doesn't. You want that coming from the doesn't. You want that coming from the doesn't. You want that coming from the top down. You do not want to think you top down. You do not want to think you top down. You do not want to think you you have the clout to say I've decided. you have the clout to say I've decided. you have the clout to say I've decided. No, don't do that. You will you will No, don't do that. You will you will No, don't do that. You will you will regret that. regret that. regret that. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think if you build the >> Yeah. Yeah, I think if you build the >> Yeah. Yeah, I think if you build the systems and the structures and then you systems and the structures and then you systems and the structures and then you stick with them, it makes it a lot stick with them, it makes it a lot stick with them, it makes it a lot easier for you to get the blessing of easier for you to get the blessing of easier for you to get the blessing of your lead pastor and the other ministers your lead pastor and the other ministers your lead pastor and the other ministers in the church. Um, let's talk a little in the church. Um, let's talk a little in the church. Um, let's talk a little bit about the mechanisms for bit about the mechanisms for bit about the mechanisms for communication. We've talked a lot, you communication. We've talked a lot, you communication. We've talked a lot, you know, you mentioned the bulletin. A lot know, you mentioned the bulletin. A lot know, you mentioned the bulletin. A lot of churches still do bulletins. Um, you of churches still do bulletins. Um, you of churches still do bulletins. Um, you know, you talked about stage know, you talked about stage know, you talked about stage announcements. Hey, here's one of my announcements. Hey, here's one of my announcements. Hey, here's one of my biggest pet peeves. I'm just going to biggest pet peeves. I'm just going to biggest pet peeves. I'm just going to because because I have the microphone because because I have the microphone because because I have the microphone here, I'm going to share it. One of my here, I'm going to share it. One of my here, I'm going to share it. One of my biggest pet peeves is going to a church biggest pet peeves is going to a church biggest pet peeves is going to a church where they have announcement time during where they have announcement time during where they have announcement time during the service and they basically read the the service and they basically read the the service and they basically read the whole bulletin. Um, please don't do whole bulletin. Um, please don't do whole bulletin. Um, please don't do that. If your church is doing that, that. If your church is doing that, that. If your church is doing that, please stop doing that. Um, the reason please stop doing that. Um, the reason please stop doing that. Um, the reason you print the bulletin is so that people you print the bulletin is so that people you print the bulletin is so that people can actually take the bulletin and know can actually take the bulletin and know can actually take the bulletin and know what's going on in the church. You don't

what's going on in the church. You don't what's going on in the church. You don't have to read every stinking announcement have to read every stinking announcement have to read every stinking announcement that's in the bulletin. Okay, I've said that's in the bulletin. Okay, I've said that's in the bulletin. Okay, I've said it. Get it off my chest. Now, let's it. Get it off my chest. Now, let's it. Get it off my chest. Now, let's think about, okay, you've got all these think about, okay, you've got all these think about, okay, you've got all these these ministry priorities. You've these ministry priorities. You've these ministry priorities. You've created, you know, uh, categories for created, you know, uh, categories for created, you know, uh, categories for these different ministry priorities. these different ministry priorities. these different ministry priorities. What are the mechanisms by which you are What are the mechanisms by which you are What are the mechanisms by which you are you said I love what you said there you said I love what you said there you said I love what you said there we're trying to say yes to everyone in we're trying to say yes to everyone in we're trying to say yes to everyone in terms of helping them promote their terms of helping them promote their terms of helping them promote their ministry but not every yes is going to ministry but not every yes is going to ministry but not every yes is going to equal an announcement from the stage on equal an announcement from the stage on equal an announcement from the stage on Sunday we have the bulletin we have Sunday we have the bulletin we have Sunday we have the bulletin we have email we have social media we might have email we have social media we might have email we have social media we might have text messaging how do you prioritize text messaging how do you prioritize text messaging how do you prioritize those platforms and the way that you're those platforms and the way that you're those platforms and the way that you're using them to communicate different using them to communicate different using them to communicate different ministry things ministry things ministry things >> so such a great question so first of all >> so such a great question so first of all >> so such a great question so first of all wrap your arms around all the different wrap your arms around all the different wrap your arms around all the different tools you have in tool bag, right? And tools you have in tool bag, right? And tools you have in tool bag, right? And uh some get have more volume than uh some get have more volume than uh some get have more volume than others, right? Stage announcement on on others, right? Stage announcement on on others, right? Stage announcement on on Sunday morning, no, you maybe get two, Sunday morning, no, you maybe get two, Sunday morning, no, you maybe get two, maybe one, two, and in rare occasions, maybe one, two, and in rare occasions, maybe one, two, and in rare occasions, three, but guess what? On social media, three, but guess what? On social media, three, but guess what? On social media, you could do like two or three a day.

you could do like two or three a day. you could do like two or three a day. And and so you you have more bandwidth And and so you you have more bandwidth And and so you you have more bandwidth with some tools, less bandwidth with with some tools, less bandwidth with with some tools, less bandwidth with others. you know, a a text a text others. you know, a a text a text others. you know, a a text a text announcer or something like and you announcer or something like and you announcer or something like and you know, you know, do a SMS thing. You know, you know, do a SMS thing. You know, you know, do a SMS thing. You might get one a week type of thing. So, might get one a week type of thing. So, might get one a week type of thing. So, be careful who you give that to, right? be careful who you give that to, right? be careful who you give that to, right? And I would just say some things are And I would just say some things are And I would just say some things are just off limits. I would already I I just off limits. I would already I I just off limits. I would already I I wouldn't even put it if it's a I also we wouldn't even put it if it's a I also we wouldn't even put it if it's a I also we do this. We talked about we talked about do this. We talked about we talked about do this. We talked about we talked about the tiers like lead pastor worship, you the tiers like lead pastor worship, you the tiers like lead pastor worship, you know, that kind of thing. On the other know, that kind of thing. On the other know, that kind of thing. On the other side of it, I would I would definitely side of it, I would I would definitely side of it, I would I would definitely break it down to what is kind of we can break it down to what is kind of we can break it down to what is kind of we can call it a a tier A, a tier B, tier C, call it a a tier A, a tier B, tier C, call it a a tier A, a tier B, tier C, tier D. If it's all if it's like all tier D. If it's all if it's like all tier D. If it's all if it's like all church, we pull out all the stops. church, we pull out all the stops. church, we pull out all the stops. They're going to get an app ann. They're They're going to get an app ann. They're They're going to get an app ann. They're going to get a text message. They're going to get a text message. They're going to get a text message. They're going to get email. They're going to get going to get email. They're going to get going to get email. They're going to get staged. They're going to get maybe the staged. They're going to get maybe the staged. They're going to get maybe the lead pastor's going to talk about it. lead pastor's going to talk about it. lead pastor's going to talk about it. Right? It's that important, right? Right? It's that important, right? Right? It's that important, right? That's easy to do. But if it gets down That's easy to do. But if it gets down That's easy to do. But if it gets down to like it's a like we mothers of to like it's a like we mothers of to like it's a like we mothers of preschoolers, we're all you don't even preschoolers, we're all you don't even preschoolers, we're all you don't even you don't even get a stage announcement. you don't even get a stage announcement. you don't even get a stage announcement. So it's not even in it's it's whatever's So it's not even in it's it's whatever's So it's not even in it's it's whatever's in this D tier that you get. And now we in this D tier that you get. And now we in this D tier that you get. And now we can figure out well when is your event?

can figure out well when is your event? can figure out well when is your event? Oh, it's in June. Okay. So we want to Oh, it's in June. Okay. So we want to Oh, it's in June. Okay. So we want to maybe start promoting this at the end of maybe start promoting this at the end of maybe start promoting this at the end of a April or maybe May. We'll have a touch a April or maybe May. We'll have a touch a April or maybe May. We'll have a touch point here, a touch point there, a touch point here, a touch point there, a touch point here, a touch point there, a touch point there. Oh, we're going to give you point there. Oh, we're going to give you point there. Oh, we're going to give you some digital assets so your people in some digital assets so your people in some digital assets so your people in your ministry can share them with their your ministry can share them with their your ministry can share them with their friends. that that type of a thing. So, friends. that that type of a thing. So, friends. that that type of a thing. So, it it really is uh understand what's in it it really is uh understand what's in it it really is uh understand what's in your tool bag. Uh but not every tool your tool bag. Uh but not every tool your tool bag. Uh but not every tool gets used by every section. So, just gets used by every section. So, just gets used by every section. So, just make you map that out and you share that make you map that out and you share that make you map that out and you share that with the ministries all the time, not with the ministries all the time, not with the ministries all the time, not just once. Then they understand, okay, just once. Then they understand, okay, just once. Then they understand, okay, yeah, Jason, we're a a D and and you and yeah, Jason, we're a a D and and you and yeah, Jason, we're a a D and and you and we have this. So, um can you work on a we have this. So, um can you work on a we have this. So, um can you work on a plan to help us with that? I sure can. plan to help us with that? I sure can. plan to help us with that? I sure can. It makes it easier. Now, if they come to It makes it easier. Now, if they come to It makes it easier. Now, if they come to you, oh, we we're having that event next you, oh, we we're having that event next you, oh, we we're having that event next weekend. Is there anything we could do? weekend. Is there anything we could do? weekend. Is there anything we could do? No, you didn't plan accordingly. Why No, you didn't plan accordingly. Why No, you didn't plan accordingly. Why didn't you come to me back in November? didn't you come to me back in November? didn't you come to me back in November? You know that that that's the that's the You know that that that's the that's the You know that that that's the that's the because then we have a tendency to go, because then we have a tendency to go, because then we have a tendency to go, well, I'll tell you what, just this well, I'll tell you what, just this well, I'll tell you what, just this once. Don't do that. You are any of you once. Don't do that. You are any of you once. Don't do that. You are any of you have kids?

have kids? have kids? These are like kids. You don't just let These are like kids. You don't just let These are like kids. You don't just let your kids get away with some stuff. They your kids get away with some stuff. They your kids get away with some stuff. They will steal the whole thing. You you will steal the whole thing. You you will steal the whole thing. You you can't do that. You really you have to can't do that. You really you have to can't do that. You really you have to treat them like kids. treat them like kids. treat them like kids. >> It's really hard though. It's really >> It's really hard though. It's really >> It's really hard though. It's really hard though because you feel like when hard though because you feel like when hard though because you feel like when you're you feel like when you're saying you're you feel like when you're saying you're you feel like when you're saying no, you you've got a life raft and no, you you've got a life raft and no, you you've got a life raft and you're telling people that they can't you're telling people that they can't you're telling people that they can't get on the life raft, right? It's like get on the life raft, right? It's like get on the life raft, right? It's like who who who do we how do we decide who who who who do we how do we decide who who who who do we how do we decide who gets on and who doesn't. And it's it's gets on and who doesn't. And it's it's gets on and who doesn't. And it's it's tricky. It is really tricky, right? tricky. It is really tricky, right? tricky. It is really tricky, right? >> Quicker. It is hard. But I'll tell you, >> Quicker. It is hard. But I'll tell you, >> Quicker. It is hard. But I'll tell you, if you set those boundaries, right, with if you set those boundaries, right, with if you set those boundaries, right, with love, right, and you do it with with love, right, and you do it with with love, right, and you do it with with grace, but truth, you know, Jesus was a grace, but truth, you know, Jesus was a grace, but truth, you know, Jesus was a master at that. He was full of grace and master at that. He was full of grace and master at that. He was full of grace and truth. You got to be you got to try and truth. You got to be you got to try and truth. You got to be you got to try and manage that well. If you if you manage that well. If you if you manage that well. If you if you mismanage that, you're going to fail as mismanage that, you're going to fail as mismanage that, you're going to fail as a comm director because you're going to a comm director because you're going to a comm director because you're going to create your own problems where burnout create your own problems where burnout create your own problems where burnout is going to happen. I'm telling you, is going to happen. I'm telling you, is going to happen. I'm telling you, I've seen it all the time. I've seen it all the time. I've seen it all the time. >> Yeah. Uh let me let me just kind of >> Yeah. Uh let me let me just kind of >> Yeah. Uh let me let me just kind of expand on that particular messaging that expand on that particular messaging that expand on that particular messaging that you're talking about. Not the burnout, you're talking about. Not the burnout, you're talking about. Not the burnout, but on the the the volume and the but on the the the volume and the but on the the the volume and the frequency of communication. um how how frequency of communication. um how how frequency of communication. um how how can a comm's director help their can a comm's director help their can a comm's director help their ministry leaders and their ministry team ministry leaders and their ministry team ministry leaders and their ministry team understand that effective communication understand that effective communication understand that effective communication isn't necessarily about volume and isn't necessarily about volume and isn't necessarily about volume and frequency, but it's more about strategic frequency, but it's more about strategic frequency, but it's more about strategic messaging that moves people to action.

messaging that moves people to action. messaging that moves people to action. So, it's the right messaging in the So, it's the right messaging in the So, it's the right messaging in the right timing on the right platform, not right timing on the right platform, not right timing on the right platform, not necessarily just like blasting it with a necessarily just like blasting it with a necessarily just like blasting it with a megaphone all the time. What are some of megaphone all the time. What are some of megaphone all the time. What are some of the conversations or what are some of the conversations or what are some of the conversations or what are some of the things that we can do to help our the things that we can do to help our the things that we can do to help our ministers um adapt a policy or process ministers um adapt a policy or process ministers um adapt a policy or process that makes their communication more that makes their communication more that makes their communication more strategic and more effective? strategic and more effective? strategic and more effective? >> Man, that's such a great question. It's >> Man, that's such a great question. It's >> Man, that's such a great question. It's so hard because every culture is is so hard because every culture is is so hard because every culture is is different. different. different. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and >> Um and >> Um and >> it's going to be different in a church >> it's going to be different in a church >> it's going to be different in a church of a 100 people versus a church of a of a 100 people versus a church of a of a 100 people versus a church of a thousand versus a church of 10,000, thousand versus a church of 10,000, thousand versus a church of 10,000, right? right? right? >> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, all >> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, all >> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, all I know is kind of the mega church space, I know is kind of the mega church space, I know is kind of the mega church space, right? And everybody's trying to right? And everybody's trying to right? And everybody's trying to >> jockey for for that for that position. >> jockey for for that for that position. >> jockey for for that for that position. >> It's really hard. You have to you have >> It's really hard. You have to you have >> It's really hard. You have to you have to you have to use the context of your to you have to use the context of your to you have to use the context of your own culture. But I I'll tell you this. I own culture. But I I'll tell you this. I own culture. But I I'll tell you this. I think the most effective way to think the most effective way to think the most effective way to engage in this is internal. This is ring engage in this is internal. This is ring engage in this is internal. This is ring one people is is through story change one people is is through story change one people is is through story change lives. Why? Why? We're in the business lives. Why? Why? We're in the business lives. Why? Why? We're in the business of helping of helping of helping people to love God, love people, and people to love God, love people, and people to love God, love people, and make disciples. And that's our job as make disciples. And that's our job as make disciples. And that's our job as the church. And as a comm's team, our the church. And as a comm's team, our the church. And as a comm's team, our job is to support our leaders in the job is to support our leaders in the job is to support our leaders in the mission of the church, create disciples.

mission of the church, create disciples. mission of the church, create disciples. Okay? Well, if if you're creating Okay? Well, if if you're creating Okay? Well, if if you're creating disciples, that means you're creating disciples, that means you're creating disciples, that means you're creating apprentices of Jesus, which means God's apprentices of Jesus, which means God's apprentices of Jesus, which means God's in your life, which means you have a in your life, which means you have a in your life, which means you have a changed life, right? M changed life, right? M changed life, right? M >> so I um I did this but not nearly as >> so I um I did this but not nearly as >> so I um I did this but not nearly as much as I teach it these days because we much as I teach it these days because we much as I teach it these days because we I've evolved in this and that is you I've evolved in this and that is you I've evolved in this and that is you want to tell stories. So making an want to tell stories. So making an want to tell stories. So making an announcement is is fine but why not tell announcement is is fine but why not tell announcement is is fine but why not tell a story through that? So um we used to a story through that? So um we used to a story through that? So um we used to do this huge fireworks uh show on the do this huge fireworks uh show on the do this huge fireworks uh show on the 4th of July. Huge. We'd get 25,000 4th of July. Huge. We'd get 25,000 4th of July. Huge. We'd get 25,000 people in our park. We had a we had a people in our park. We had a we had a people in our park. We had a we had a our campus and a park right next to us. our campus and a park right next to us. our campus and a park right next to us. And it was it was amazing. It was so so And it was it was amazing. It was so so And it was it was amazing. It was so so so good. Uh we didn't have a hard time so good. Uh we didn't have a hard time so good. Uh we didn't have a hard time um we didn't really have a hard time um we didn't really have a hard time um we didn't really have a hard time getting people to show up to that thing. getting people to show up to that thing. getting people to show up to that thing. What we did have a hard time was is What we did have a hard time was is What we did have a hard time was is getting volunteers. We need a lot of getting volunteers. We need a lot of getting volunteers. We need a lot of volunteers. And so instead of just volunteers. And so instead of just volunteers. And so instead of just saying, "Hey, we need you to, you know, saying, "Hey, we need you to, you know, saying, "Hey, we need you to, you know, not enjoy the Fourth of July with your not enjoy the Fourth of July with your not enjoy the Fourth of July with your family, but come and serve." It's, by family, but come and serve." It's, by family, but come and serve." It's, by the way, we're in Phoenix. It's like 118 the way, we're in Phoenix. It's like 118 the way, we're in Phoenix. It's like 118 degrees. You're It's hotter than crud.

degrees. You're It's hotter than crud. degrees. You're It's hotter than crud. You know, you're wore out. You're burned You know, you're wore out. You're burned You know, you're wore out. You're burned out. Well, we're asking you to do that out. Well, we're asking you to do that out. Well, we're asking you to do that instead of go be with your family. Well, instead of go be with your family. Well, instead of go be with your family. Well, who's going to say yes to that? Instead, who's going to say yes to that? Instead, who's going to say yes to that? Instead, what we should have done, I didn't do what we should have done, I didn't do what we should have done, I didn't do this, but what I would would do if I this, but what I would would do if I this, but what I would would do if I could go back in time was tell some could go back in time was tell some could go back in time was tell some stories. Tell some stories of people stories. Tell some stories of people stories. Tell some stories of people that committed to serve at our Fire in that committed to serve at our Fire in that committed to serve at our Fire in the Sky program and what it meant for the Sky program and what it meant for the Sky program and what it meant for them and what they got out of it. And them and what they got out of it. And them and what they got out of it. And I'll tell you, there's some amazing I'll tell you, there's some amazing I'll tell you, there's some amazing stories. Oh, man. I I got to meet this stories. Oh, man. I I got to meet this stories. Oh, man. I I got to meet this person. I got to pray with that person. person. I got to pray with that person. person. I got to pray with that person. I was worn out. It was the best feeling I was worn out. It was the best feeling I was worn out. It was the best feeling I've had in a long long time. Right? You I've had in a long long time. Right? You I've had in a long long time. Right? You want to tell story stories and then you want to tell story stories and then you want to tell story stories and then you promote the event through the story. And promote the event through the story. And promote the event through the story. And so if I can give you any any kind of so if I can give you any any kind of so if I can give you any any kind of like advice, it would be take the time like advice, it would be take the time like advice, it would be take the time to learn about what's impact what kind to learn about what's impact what kind to learn about what's impact what kind of impact is this going to make on the of impact is this going to make on the of impact is this going to make on the on the people who are going to attend on the people who are going to attend on the people who are going to attend this thing and tell stories if you've this thing and tell stories if you've this thing and tell stories if you've got them around that. That that stuff got them around that. That that stuff got them around that. That that stuff works so well because that's what we're works so well because that's what we're works so well because that's what we're attracted to. attracted to. attracted to. >> I love that. I think that that's the >> I love that. I think that that's the >> I love that. I think that that's the challenge that you present to the people challenge that you present to the people challenge that you present to the people who are coming to you who just want more who are coming to you who just want more who are coming to you who just want more volume and more visibility is you say, volume and more visibility is you say, volume and more visibility is you say, "Hey, go and find the person in your "Hey, go and find the person in your "Hey, go and find the person in your ministry whose life has been impacted ministry whose life has been impacted ministry whose life has been impacted the most by this event, this activity, the most by this event, this activity, the most by this event, this activity, this connection, and let's record a this connection, and let's record a this connection, and let's record a short story, a short video, or let let short story, a short video, or let let short story, a short video, or let let me do an interview with them. Let's me do an interview with them. Let's me do an interview with them. Let's let's find a way to tell their story." I let's find a way to tell their story." I let's find a way to tell their story." I love that. I have my the last question love that. I have my the last question love that. I have my the last question that I have on the list here. I think that I have on the list here. I think that I have on the list here. I think you just answered it. I jotted it down you just answered it. I jotted it down you just answered it. I jotted it down some questions to to ask you today and some questions to to ask you today and some questions to to ask you today and that was if you could look back on your

that was if you could look back on your that was if you could look back on your time serving in your role. What one time serving in your role. What one time serving in your role. What one practice would you have implemented practice would you have implemented practice would you have implemented earlier in your career as a comm's earlier in your career as a comm's earlier in your career as a comm's director that would have actually helped director that would have actually helped director that would have actually helped you be more effective in your role? I you be more effective in your role? I you be more effective in your role? I think you just answered that. You would think you just answered that. You would think you just answered that. You would have told more stories. have told more stories. have told more stories. >> I would have told Yeah, I would have >> I would have told Yeah, I would have >> I would have told Yeah, I would have told more more stories through that for told more more stories through that for told more more stories through that for sure. I also would have said no more sure. I also would have said no more sure. I also would have said no more often. often. often. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Uh I think you know I think by telling >> Uh I think you know I think by telling >> Uh I think you know I think by telling somebody no it might hurt at first but somebody no it might hurt at first but somebody no it might hurt at first but we know that's that's the best answer. we know that's that's the best answer. we know that's that's the best answer. It's going to help both of us It's going to help both of us It's going to help both of us >> down the road because we're not going to >> down the road because we're not going to >> down the road because we're not going to be faced because by by guys we realize be faced because by by guys we realize be faced because by by guys we realize this right? So ministries will come to this right? So ministries will come to this right? So ministries will come to us at the last minute and they and they us at the last minute and they and they us at the last minute and they and they think uh well you can do this right and think uh well you can do this right and think uh well you can do this right and you're going this is stressing me out. you're going this is stressing me out. you're going this is stressing me out. Well, they're stressed out, too. So, uh, Well, they're stressed out, too. So, uh, Well, they're stressed out, too. So, uh, we understand this like they're they're we understand this like they're they're we understand this like they're they're kind of they're on pins and needles kind of they're on pins and needles kind of they're on pins and needles about trying to pull off this event. about trying to pull off this event. about trying to pull off this event. They didn't plan accordingly, and now They didn't plan accordingly, and now They didn't plan accordingly, and now they're asking you to jump into that they're asking you to jump into that they're asking you to jump into that bandwagon to have everybody has stress bandwagon to have everybody has stress bandwagon to have everybody has stress now. We know that's not healthy. So, I now. We know that's not healthy. So, I now. We know that's not healthy. So, I would have I would definitely would have would have I would definitely would have would have I would definitely would have said no more often, which would have said no more often, which would have said no more often, which would have trained them more to say, I need to come trained them more to say, I need to come trained them more to say, I need to come to Jason earlier. I need to meet with to Jason earlier. I need to meet with to Jason earlier. I need to meet with him earlier. And I would have done a him earlier. And I would have done a him earlier. And I would have done a probably a better job of going, "Hey, probably a better job of going, "Hey, probably a better job of going, "Hey, let's meet at least every two weeks for let's meet at least every two weeks for let's meet at least every two weeks for 30 minutes, and we're going to touch 30 minutes, and we're going to touch 30 minutes, and we're going to touch base on what's going on this week, next base on what's going on this week, next base on what's going on this week, next week, or next month, or just start week, or next month, or just start week, or next month, or just start looking at the plan." Keep that looking at the plan." Keep that looking at the plan." Keep that relationship going. I'm not just going relationship going. I'm not just going relationship going. I'm not just going to wait for you to submit a project

to wait for you to submit a project to wait for you to submit a project jacket or project ticket, right? We do jacket or project ticket, right? We do jacket or project ticket, right? We do that. We fill out the form when you need that. We fill out the form when you need that. We fill out the form when you need something. We'll take care of it. No, something. We'll take care of it. No, something. We'll take care of it. No, no, no. Go meet with them so you know no, no. Go meet with them so you know no, no. Go meet with them so you know what's coming up. I would have gotten what's coming up. I would have gotten what's coming up. I would have gotten ahead of that because that that would ahead of that because that that would ahead of that because that that would have given me more margin because we we have given me more margin because we we have given me more margin because we we operated as much like a lot of you on on operated as much like a lot of you on on operated as much like a lot of you on on some stress and and and it it wasn't some stress and and and it it wasn't some stress and and and it it wasn't healthy. Sometimes it was okay but boy healthy. Sometimes it was okay but boy healthy. Sometimes it was okay but boy there was seasons it was tough. It was there was seasons it was tough. It was there was seasons it was tough. It was tough sledding and and my and I this is tough sledding and and my and I this is tough sledding and and my and I this is the worst by the way when you have to go the worst by the way when you have to go the worst by the way when you have to go to your team to say hey yeah I can't to your team to say hey yeah I can't to your team to say hey yeah I can't have you go home until that's done right have you go home until that's done right have you go home until that's done right that's just that's painful. Nobody wants that's just that's painful. Nobody wants that's just that's painful. Nobody wants to live in that. And Jesus did not build to live in that. And Jesus did not build to live in that. And Jesus did not build his church so we could live in a bunch his church so we could live in a bunch his church so we could live in a bunch of stressbased, you know, no margin kind of stressbased, you know, no margin kind of stressbased, you know, no margin kind of thing. That's not what the plan A of thing. That's not what the plan A of thing. That's not what the plan A was. was. was. >> Now, I I'm as I'm listening to you say >> Now, I I'm as I'm listening to you say >> Now, I I'm as I'm listening to you say this, I'm putting myself in the seat of this, I'm putting myself in the seat of this, I'm putting myself in the seat of a comm's director who's listening to a comm's director who's listening to a comm's director who's listening to this right now, and this is what I this this right now, and this is what I this this right now, and this is what I this is what I believe. There's somebody out is what I believe. There's somebody out is what I believe. There's somebody out there that's thinking this. That's all there that's thinking this. That's all there that's thinking this. That's all well and good and I think I have the well and good and I think I have the well and good and I think I have the guts to say no, but I have a senior guts to say no, but I have a senior guts to say no, but I have a senior pastor who doesn't ever say no. And for pastor who doesn't ever say no. And for pastor who doesn't ever say no. And for me to get buy in from my senior pastor, me to get buy in from my senior pastor, me to get buy in from my senior pastor, um, I'm going to need someone to um, I'm going to need someone to um, I'm going to need someone to advocate for me. And here's what here's advocate for me. And here's what here's advocate for me. And here's what here's here here's why I want to close this here here's why I want to close this here here's why I want to close this today. Um, we if you if you have found today. Um, we if you if you have found today. Um, we if you if you have found this coaching and this insight from this coaching and this insight from this coaching and this insight from Jason to be helpful today, um, we do Jason to be helpful today, um, we do Jason to be helpful today, um, we do these live events. We call them church

these live events. We call them church these live events. We call them church communications road shows that are communications road shows that are communications road shows that are basically eight hours of drinking from a basically eight hours of drinking from a basically eight hours of drinking from a fire hose on all things communications, fire hose on all things communications, fire hose on all things communications, marketing, AI, all this stuff. Jason marketing, AI, all this stuff. Jason marketing, AI, all this stuff. Jason teaches a little bit more on this teaches a little bit more on this teaches a little bit more on this particular topic at those road shows. particular topic at those road shows. particular topic at those road shows. You need to find the nearest road show You need to find the nearest road show You need to find the nearest road show to you and you need to bring your senior to you and you need to bring your senior to you and you need to bring your senior pastor with you to that road show. In pastor with you to that road show. In pastor with you to that road show. In fact, if you come to one of our road fact, if you come to one of our road fact, if you come to one of our road shows this year and you can get your shows this year and you can get your shows this year and you can get your senior pastor, executive pastor to come senior pastor, executive pastor to come senior pastor, executive pastor to come with you, we will comp their ticket. We with you, we will comp their ticket. We with you, we will comp their ticket. We will we will let the senior pastor will we will let the senior pastor will we will let the senior pastor executive pastor come for free. You pay executive pastor come for free. You pay executive pastor come for free. You pay for your own ticket and you bring them for your own ticket and you bring them for your own ticket and you bring them for free. We'll give them lunch and all for free. We'll give them lunch and all for free. We'll give them lunch and all the training and we will advocate for the training and we will advocate for the training and we will advocate for you. If you can't get to one of our road you. If you can't get to one of our road you. If you can't get to one of our road shows or maybe the timing just doesn't shows or maybe the timing just doesn't shows or maybe the timing just doesn't work well for you, you can schedule a work well for you, you can schedule a work well for you, you can schedule a call with one of our coaches and we can call with one of our coaches and we can call with one of our coaches and we can talk about how we can coach you and your talk about how we can coach you and your talk about how we can coach you and your leadership team to put a strategic plan leadership team to put a strategic plan leadership team to put a strategic plan together that you can all agree to and together that you can all agree to and together that you can all agree to and then bring some accountability to that. then bring some accountability to that. then bring some accountability to that. Jason, where are some of the cities that Jason, where are some of the cities that Jason, where are some of the cities that we're having road shows here in 2026?

we're having road shows here in 2026? we're having road shows here in 2026? >> Well, we're we're going to Florida in >> Well, we're we're going to Florida in >> Well, we're we're going to Florida in March. So, we'll be in Orlando and March. So, we'll be in Orlando and March. So, we'll be in Orlando and Tampa. Uh we're heading to uh Tampa. Uh we're heading to uh Tampa. Uh we're heading to uh Cincinnati, Indianapolis. I think it's Cincinnati, Indianapolis. I think it's Cincinnati, Indianapolis. I think it's in May. We're go uh maybe that's a in May. We're go uh maybe that's a in May. We're go uh maybe that's a little bit later. We're also going to um little bit later. We're also going to um little bit later. We're also going to um going to be going to be going to be >> we're North Carolina. North Carolina and >> we're North Carolina. North Carolina and >> we're North Carolina. North Carolina and South Carolina. I know. South Carolina. I know. South Carolina. I know. >> South Carolina there. Um we're going be >> South Carolina there. Um we're going be >> South Carolina there. Um we're going be heading back to Texas. We are doing two heading back to Texas. We are doing two heading back to Texas. We are doing two national national national road shows. They're going to be via road shows. They're going to be via road shows. They're going to be via Zoom. Okay. Zoom. Okay. Zoom. Okay. >> Try because there's so many churches >> Try because there's so many churches >> Try because there's so many churches that are in, you know, remote areas that that are in, you know, remote areas that that are in, you know, remote areas that just can't get to a road show. Uh, but I just can't get to a road show. Uh, but I just can't get to a road show. Uh, but I tell you, it's going to be that's going tell you, it's going to be that's going tell you, it's going to be that's going to be a lot of fun. So, you could always to be a lot of fun. So, you could always to be a lot of fun. So, you could always always do that. Uh, but I will I will always do that. Uh, but I will I will always do that. Uh, but I will I will kind of double click there on what you kind of double click there on what you kind of double click there on what you said there. said there. said there. The first thing I'll say to you guys is The first thing I'll say to you guys is The first thing I'll say to you guys is first of all, you got the Holy Spirit. first of all, you got the Holy Spirit. first of all, you got the Holy Spirit. So, I would be bathing this in prayer So, I would be bathing this in prayer So, I would be bathing this in prayer about how to approach your leadership about how to approach your leadership about how to approach your leadership about, hey, I need to get some more about, hey, I need to get some more about, hey, I need to get some more structure. I'm burnt out. But I'll tell structure. I'm burnt out. But I'll tell structure. I'm burnt out. But I'll tell you, you don't want to just do that you, you don't want to just do that you, you don't want to just do that flippantly. You don't just kind of can I flippantly. You don't just kind of can I flippantly. You don't just kind of can I schedule a meeting with you and then schedule a meeting with you and then schedule a meeting with you and then walk in not prepared. You want to walk walk in not prepared. You want to walk walk in not prepared. You want to walk in prepared. You want to walk in going in prepared. You want to walk in going in prepared. You want to walk in going here's some things I need to share about here's some things I need to share about here's some things I need to share about what's going on, why it's going on, what what's going on, why it's going on, what what's going on, why it's going on, what it's doing to me, what it's doing to my it's doing to me, what it's doing to my it's doing to me, what it's doing to my team if you have a team, and here's team if you have a team, and here's team if you have a team, and here's here's my plan for how to get out of here's my plan for how to get out of here's my plan for how to get out of this. Will you take a look at this? Will this. Will you take a look at this? Will this. Will you take a look at this? Will you tweak it? And will you bless it? You you tweak it? And will you bless it? You you tweak it? And will you bless it? You don't just you have to start there. And don't just you have to start there. And don't just you have to start there. And if you don't fight for yourself, you if you don't fight for yourself, you if you don't fight for yourself, you won't win. And I can I can certainly uh

won't win. And I can I can certainly uh won't win. And I can I can certainly uh step in and I do this a lot to talk with step in and I do this a lot to talk with step in and I do this a lot to talk with leadership about and I'll just call them leadership about and I'll just call them leadership about and I'll just call them out by the way. I have nothing to lose. out by the way. I have nothing to lose. out by the way. I have nothing to lose. I'm an advocate for you. Uh and and I I'm an advocate for you. Uh and and I I'm an advocate for you. Uh and and I have nothing to lose. But I always say have nothing to lose. But I always say have nothing to lose. But I always say you got to have a plan and and every you got to have a plan and and every you got to have a plan and and every plan it doesn't if it sits on the shelf, plan it doesn't if it sits on the shelf, plan it doesn't if it sits on the shelf, it's no good. It's got to be put into it's no good. It's got to be put into it's no good. It's got to be put into practice. And every plan will adjust. practice. And every plan will adjust. practice. And every plan will adjust. But I'll tell you what, you're gonna But I'll tell you what, you're gonna But I'll tell you what, you're gonna miss every shot you don't take. So, miss every shot you don't take. So, miss every shot you don't take. So, let's take a shot. let's take a shot. let's take a shot. >> Very good. Uh, you can find out more >> Very good. Uh, you can find out more >> Very good. Uh, you can find out more about our road shows at the website about our road shows at the website about our road shows at the website churchcommunications.com. churchcommunications.com. churchcommunications.com. I'll link to uh the road show page in I'll link to uh the road show page in I'll link to uh the road show page in the show notes here. And, uh, Jason, the show notes here. And, uh, Jason, the show notes here. And, uh, Jason, this this has been great. Uh, I've this this has been great. Uh, I've this this has been great. Uh, I've enjoyed having this conversation. I've enjoyed having this conversation. I've enjoyed having this conversation. I've I've heard you tell so many different I've heard you tell so many different I've heard you tell so many different stories over the years you and I have stories over the years you and I have stories over the years you and I have been working together about your time in been working together about your time in been working together about your time in the trenches. And I know that when we do the trenches. And I know that when we do the trenches. And I know that when we do our road shows and you share a little our road shows and you share a little our road shows and you share a little bit of your story and give people some bit of your story and give people some bit of your story and give people some insight into some of your experience, it insight into some of your experience, it insight into some of your experience, it always seems to really resonate with always seems to really resonate with always seems to really resonate with them. They're like, "Oh, we have we have them. They're like, "Oh, we have we have them. They're like, "Oh, we have we have a friend in Jason because he knows the a friend in Jason because he knows the a friend in Jason because he knows the seat we've sat in um that we're sitting seat we've sat in um that we're sitting seat we've sat in um that we're sitting in and and and I think that our audience in and and and I think that our audience in and and and I think that our audience will really appreciate that." Um this I will really appreciate that." Um this I will really appreciate that." Um this I think has been a very successful 178th think has been a very successful 178th think has been a very successful 178th episode of the Missional Marketing episode of the Missional Marketing episode of the Missional Marketing Podcast. So, if if it's been helpful for Podcast. So, if if it's been helpful for Podcast. So, if if it's been helpful for you, please make sure that you share it you, please make sure that you share it you, please make sure that you share it with a friend, a ministry colleague, with a friend, a ministry colleague, with a friend, a ministry colleague, somebody that you know, and if you somebody that you know, and if you somebody that you know, and if you haven't ever left us a rating or review haven't ever left us a rating or review haven't ever left us a rating or review wherever you listen, um that would be wherever you listen, um that would be wherever you listen, um that would be helpful, too. Uh on behalf of Jason helpful, too. Uh on behalf of Jason helpful, too. Uh on behalf of Jason Hamrock, I'm Bart Blair, and this has Hamrock, I'm Bart Blair, and this has Hamrock, I'm Bart Blair, and this has been another episode of the Missional been another episode of the Missional been another episode of the Missional Marketing Podcast.