Stepping Into a New Leadership Role | Dr. Gavin Adams

[Music] [Music] Authority doesn't always equal influence Authority doesn't always equal influence Authority doesn't always equal influence one of the biggest issues that I see in one of the biggest issues that I see in one of the biggest issues that I see in this space is people assuming positional this space is people assuming positional this space is people assuming positional Authority Trump's relational influence Authority Trump's relational influence Authority Trump's relational influence and it does for the moment but it and it does for the moment but it and it does for the moment but it doesn't long term and so regardless of doesn't long term and so regardless of doesn't long term and so regardless of uh the the the the role you're stepping uh the the the the role you're stepping uh the the the the role you're stepping into whether it's the most senior in the into whether it's the most senior in the into whether it's the most senior in the organization uh or somewhere lower in organization uh or somewhere lower in organization uh or somewhere lower in the OR chart the reality is that if the OR chart the reality is that if the OR chart the reality is that if you're relying on the title to gain the you're relying on the title to gain the you're relying on the title to gain the influence you're really relying on the influence you're really relying on the influence you're really relying on the wrong thing this is season 4 episode 19 wrong thing this is season 4 episode 19 wrong thing this is season 4 episode 19 of the missional marketing podcast my of the missional marketing podcast my of the missional marketing podcast my name is Bart Blair I'm the co-host of name is Bart Blair I'm the co-host of name is Bart Blair I'm the co-host of the show and I'm excited to welcome you the show and I'm excited to welcome you the show and I'm excited to welcome you to the 143rd edition of our podcast to the 143rd edition of our podcast to the 143rd edition of our podcast 143rd episode that's what I intended to 143rd episode that's what I intended to 143rd episode that's what I intended to say uh we've been producing this podcast say uh we've been producing this podcast say uh we've been producing this podcast since 2020 dropping an episode almost since 2020 dropping an episode almost since 2020 dropping an episode almost every week we typically try to drop on every week we typically try to drop on every week we typically try to drop on Fridays and Our intention is to help Fridays and Our intention is to help Fridays and Our intention is to help churches grow by leveraging digital churches grow by leveraging digital churches grow by leveraging digital marketing and effective Communications marketing and effective Communications marketing and effective Communications uh if you happen to be new to the uh if you happen to be new to the uh if you happen to be new to the podcast uh we want to remind you to podcast uh we want to remind you to podcast uh we want to remind you to subscribe wherever you happen to be subscribe wherever you happen to be subscribe wherever you happen to be listening to the podcast um I've got an listening to the podcast um I've got an listening to the podcast um I've got an amazing uh schedule of podcast amazing uh schedule of podcast amazing uh schedule of podcast interviews set up here over the course interviews set up here over the course interviews set up here over the course of the next couple of months some church of the next couple of months some church of the next couple of months some church Communications leaders from some of the Communications leaders from some of the Communications leaders from some of the most influential uh and creative most influential uh and creative most influential uh and creative churches across the country and I think churches across the country and I think churches across the country and I think that you're going to be uh really that you're going to be uh really that you're going to be uh really blessed by some of the guests that we're blessed by some of the guests that we're blessed by some of the guests that we're going to have on the show here in the going to have on the show here in the going to have on the show here in the upcoming uh couple of months at the very upcoming uh couple of months at the very upcoming uh couple of months at the very least and if you Haven be watching on least and if you Haven be watching on least and if you Haven be watching on our YouTube channel make sure that you our YouTube channel make sure that you our YouTube channel make sure that you subscribe there and also just want to subscribe there and also just want to subscribe there and also just want to remind you that we always pin a question

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learning from the podcast and of course you know that podcast and of course you know that podcast and of course you know that engagement on the YouTube channel engagement on the YouTube channel engagement on the YouTube channel probably gives us a little bit more uh probably gives us a little bit more uh probably gives us a little bit more uh food for the algorithm in the YouTube food for the algorithm in the YouTube food for the algorithm in the YouTube machine U but at the very least we just machine U but at the very least we just machine U but at the very least we just love to engage with you there we'd love love to engage with you there we'd love love to engage with you there we'd love to know if you're benefiting from uh the to know if you're benefiting from uh the to know if you're benefiting from uh the podcast I also want to mention that if podcast I also want to mention that if podcast I also want to mention that if you happen to be watching on our YouTube you happen to be watching on our YouTube you happen to be watching on our YouTube channel I'm just going to apologize channel I'm just going to apologize channel I'm just going to apologize because I I did not realize that on the because I I did not realize that on the because I I did not realize that on the day that I recorded this podcast day that I recorded this podcast day that I recorded this podcast interview that uh my uh beard it was interview that uh my uh beard it was interview that uh my uh beard it was pretty scraggly and I I I I look kind of pretty scraggly and I I I I look kind of pretty scraggly and I I I I look kind of like a homeless person like it's just like a homeless person like it's just like a homeless person like it's just not the most not the most flattering uh not the most not the most flattering uh not the most not the most flattering uh view of me so just don't focus on me view of me so just don't focus on me view of me so just don't focus on me focus on the guest if you happen to be focus on the guest if you happen to be focus on the guest if you happen to be listening on Spotify or on on on Apple listening on Spotify or on on on Apple listening on Spotify or on on on Apple podcast you're wondering what my beard podcast you're wondering what my beard podcast you're wondering what my beard might have looked like you can go over might have looked like you can go over might have looked like you can go over to the YouTube channel if you want to to the YouTube channel if you want to to the YouTube channel if you want to and you can check it out uh it's really and you can check it out uh it's really and you can check it out uh it's really a little bit scary I think today I'm I'm a little bit scary I think today I'm I'm a little bit scary I think today I'm I'm I'm a little better trimmed so it's not I'm a little better trimmed so it's not I'm a little better trimmed so it's not not too bad anyway um uh my interview uh not too bad anyway um uh my interview uh not too bad anyway um uh my interview uh this week what you're about to hear is this week what you're about to hear is this week what you're about to hear is an interview with a guest named Dr Gavin an interview with a guest named Dr Gavin an interview with a guest named Dr Gavin Adams it's actually the third time uh Adams it's actually the third time uh Adams it's actually the third time uh that we've had Gavin on our show he is that we've had Gavin on our show he is that we've had Gavin on our show he is an incredible uh leader uh a former an incredible uh leader uh a former an incredible uh leader uh a former Church leader now he just does mostly Church leader now he just does mostly Church leader now he just does mostly coaching and uh and and really coaching and uh and and really coaching and uh and and really Consulting uh with churches and other Consulting uh with churches and other Consulting uh with churches and other organizations primarily in the lane of organizations primarily in the lane of organizations primarily in the lane of leadership and as of the day that this leadership and as of the day that this leadership and as of the day that this podcast episode is released Gavin has a

podcast episode is released Gavin has a podcast episode is released Gavin has a brand new book that has literally just brand new book that has literally just brand new book that has literally just hit the shelves it is called big shoes hit the shelves it is called big shoes hit the shelves it is called big shoes to fill and what Gavin is doing with to fill and what Gavin is doing with to fill and what Gavin is doing with this book is he's really trying to help this book is he's really trying to help this book is he's really trying to help leaders who are stepping into a new leaders who are stepping into a new leaders who are stepping into a new leadership position take the right step leadership position take the right step leadership position take the right step as they get started uh whether you are as they get started uh whether you are as they get started uh whether you are at the top of your organization maybe a at the top of your organization maybe a at the top of your organization maybe a pastor or executive Pastor or maybe pastor or executive Pastor or maybe pastor or executive Pastor or maybe you're somewhere in the middle of your you're somewhere in the middle of your you're somewhere in the middle of your organization as a a communications organization as a a communications organization as a a communications director Communications leader or maybe director Communications leader or maybe director Communications leader or maybe some other their Ministry staff leader some other their Ministry staff leader some other their Ministry staff leader if you're stepping into a role that was if you're stepping into a role that was if you're stepping into a role that was either filled by someone else previously either filled by someone else previously either filled by someone else previously or maybe it's a brand new role uh there or maybe it's a brand new role uh there or maybe it's a brand new role uh there are some things that Gavin can teach you are some things that Gavin can teach you are some things that Gavin can teach you about how to make the most of that about how to make the most of that about how to make the most of that opportunity uh the subtitle of the book opportunity uh the subtitle of the book opportunity uh the subtitle of the book I think is something like you know uh I think is something like you know uh I think is something like you know uh taking the right steps without stepping taking the right steps without stepping taking the right steps without stepping in it big shoes to fill uh without in it big shoes to fill uh without in it big shoes to fill uh without stepping in it don't step in it we don't stepping in it don't step in it we don't stepping in it don't step in it we don't want to step in it whatever it might be want to step in it whatever it might be want to step in it whatever it might be anyway Gavin is a wealth of wisdom anyway Gavin is a wealth of wisdom anyway Gavin is a wealth of wisdom experience uh Leadership Lessons and and experience uh Leadership Lessons and and experience uh Leadership Lessons and and I think that you're going to really I think that you're going to really I think that you're going to really appreciate this conversation I certainly appreciate this conversation I certainly appreciate this conversation I certainly did I'm also going to go and buy a copy did I'm also going to go and buy a copy did I'm also going to go and buy a copy of the book because I think as of the of the book because I think as of the of the book because I think as of the day I'm recording this intro it's day I'm recording this intro it's day I'm recording this intro it's actually available so uh thanks again actually available so uh thanks again actually available so uh thanks again for tuning in to our show uh and uh yeah for tuning in to our show uh and uh yeah for tuning in to our show uh and uh yeah we appreciate you our show has been we appreciate you our show has been we appreciate you our show has been growing uh more and more people are growing uh more and more people are growing uh more and more people are finding the podcast thanks to you finding the podcast thanks to you finding the podcast thanks to you sharing it commenting uh subscribing sharing it commenting uh subscribing sharing it commenting uh subscribing doing all the things that you do on the doing all the things that you do on the doing all the things that you do on the internet uh we appreciate that and so internet uh we appreciate that and so internet uh we appreciate that and so here without any further delay is my here without any further delay is my here without any further delay is my recent interview with Gavin recent interview with Gavin recent interview with Gavin Adams Gavin I'm so excited to have you Adams Gavin I'm so excited to have you Adams Gavin I'm so excited to have you back on the show today welcome to round

back on the show today welcome to round back on the show today welcome to round three on the missional marketing podcast three on the missional marketing podcast three on the missional marketing podcast yeah thanks man round three that's true yeah thanks man round three that's true yeah thanks man round three that's true I this is my third my third visit with I this is my third my third visit with I this is my third my third visit with you guys I appreciate you having me back you guys I appreciate you having me back you guys I appreciate you having me back we are long long longtime friends now we are long long longtime friends now we are long long longtime friends now we've spent a total of well about two we've spent a total of well about two we've spent a total of well about two hours together in our entire lives and hours together in our entire lives and hours together in our entire lives and this will be the third hour that we get this will be the third hour that we get this will be the third hour that we get to spend together but uh you know I to spend together but uh you know I to spend together but uh you know I follow you online uh see a lot of stuff follow you online uh see a lot of stuff follow you online uh see a lot of stuff that you you post online particular on that you you post online particular on that you you post online particular on link in and read a lot of the content link in and read a lot of the content link in and read a lot of the content that you create so it's kind of a weird that you create so it's kind of a weird that you create so it's kind of a weird the internet world is kind of a weird the internet world is kind of a weird the internet world is kind of a weird world where you know we we make world where you know we we make world where you know we we make acquaintances we talk to people from acquaintances we talk to people from acquaintances we talk to people from time to time but um I feel like you're a time to time but um I feel like you're a time to time but um I feel like you're a part of my life all the time because I'm part of my life all the time because I'm part of my life all the time because I'm I'm consuming your content so frequently I'm consuming your content so frequently I'm consuming your content so frequently so I appreciate that yeah thanks thanks so I appreciate that yeah thanks thanks so I appreciate that yeah thanks thanks again for for for jumping in um for again for for for jumping in um for again for for for jumping in um for those of our audience members who might those of our audience members who might those of our audience members who might not know who you are maybe they haven't not know who you are maybe they haven't not know who you are maybe they haven't listened to the previous episodes they listened to the previous episodes they listened to the previous episodes they really should we'll link to those in the really should we'll link to those in the really should we'll link to those in the show notes show notes um give us a show notes show notes um give us a show notes show notes um give us a little a little bit of a background on little a little bit of a background on little a little bit of a background on who you are and what you do and really who you are and what you do and really who you are and what you do and really maybe just a quick update on how things maybe just a quick update on how things maybe just a quick update on how things have been going uh with your ministry have been going uh with your ministry have been going uh with your ministry and your ministry work uh since the last and your ministry work uh since the last and your ministry work uh since the last time you were on the show which I think time you were on the show which I think time you were on the show which I think was like right around a year ago yeah I was like right around a year ago yeah I was like right around a year ago yeah I think it was about a year ago yeah so think it was about a year ago yeah so think it was about a year ago yeah so again thanks for having me again I um I again thanks for having me again I um I again thanks for having me again I um I I you know we were chatting a little I you know we were chatting a little I you know we were chatting a little before we started I I love what I'm before we started I I love what I'm before we started I I love what I'm doing I'm having a ton of fun doing it doing I'm having a ton of fun doing it doing I'm having a ton of fun doing it so I'm glad let me I'll tell you a so I'm glad let me I'll tell you a so I'm glad let me I'll tell you a little bit about that I for those of little bit about that I for those of little bit about that I for those of people who just don't know me I came out people who just don't know me I came out people who just don't know me I came out of the marketplace I spent a decade as a of the marketplace I spent a decade as a of the marketplace I spent a decade as a strategic marketing consultant for the strategic marketing consultant for the strategic marketing consultant for the most most part before being called into most most part before being called into most most part before being called into Ministry of course I I've been in Ministry of course I I've been in Ministry of course I I've been in Ministry man gosh since I was probably a

Ministry man gosh since I was probably a Ministry man gosh since I was probably a teenager and so that part isn't foreign teenager and so that part isn't foreign teenager and so that part isn't foreign to me but the the professional to me but the the professional to me but the the professional Christianity was so after a decade in Christianity was so after a decade in Christianity was so after a decade in the marketplace I went into Ministry the marketplace I went into Ministry the marketplace I went into Ministry full-time and I helped plant a church full-time and I helped plant a church full-time and I helped plant a church and then became a lead Pastor so was a and then became a lead Pastor so was a and then became a lead Pastor so was a lead Pastor for 13 years uh and the last lead Pastor for 13 years uh and the last lead Pastor for 13 years uh and the last decade of that was with Northpoint decade of that was with Northpoint decade of that was with Northpoint Ministries I led wock City Church a Ministries I led wock City Church a Ministries I led wock City Church a campus location of North Point and so uh campus location of North Point and so uh campus location of North Point and so uh in 200 21 the very beginning January of in 200 21 the very beginning January of in 200 21 the very beginning January of 21 really just felt like the season was 21 really just felt like the season was 21 really just felt like the season was ending and it was time to uh maybe move ending and it was time to uh maybe move ending and it was time to uh maybe move on I had been working to replace myself on I had been working to replace myself on I had been working to replace myself and had a really great guy uh who had and had a really great guy uh who had and had a really great guy uh who had been working for us for seven years who been working for us for seven years who been working for us for seven years who was ready to take my job and probably do was ready to take my job and probably do was ready to take my job and probably do it a lot better than me and uh I had it a lot better than me and uh I had it a lot better than me and uh I had just finished my doctorate as well and just finished my doctorate as well and just finished my doctorate as well and so just felt like it was time to move on so just felt like it was time to move on so just felt like it was time to move on into something else also I have such a into something else also I have such a into something else also I have such a passion for the local church and for passion for the local church and for passion for the local church and for leadership and so really wanted to leadership and so really wanted to leadership and so really wanted to combine that marketing kind of you know combine that marketing kind of you know combine that marketing kind of you know business business background with the business business background with the business business background with the church leadership uh experiences and put church leadership uh experiences and put church leadership uh experiences and put those two things together so for about those two things together so for about those two things together so for about two and a half years now I have been two and a half years now I have been two and a half years now I have been working uh as a professional leadership working uh as a professional leadership working uh as a professional leadership coach and Ministry consultant uh with coach and Ministry consultant uh with coach and Ministry consultant uh with churches um I mean I guess I can say all churches um I mean I guess I can say all churches um I mean I guess I can say all over the world I have some in UK and over the world I have some in UK and over the world I have some in UK and Australia but lots of obviously us Australia but lots of obviously us Australia but lots of obviously us churches uh helping them on a few churches uh helping them on a few churches uh helping them on a few specific things I do a lot of specific things I do a lot of specific things I do a lot of communications coaching obviously communications coaching obviously communications coaching obviously working for Andy uh helped me as a working for Andy uh helped me as a working for Andy uh helped me as a communicator and I grew a lot from his communicator and I grew a lot from his communicator and I grew a lot from his mentorship so do a lot of preaching and mentorship so do a lot of preaching and mentorship so do a lot of preaching and communication but also coaching communication but also coaching communication but also coaching communicators uh do a lot of intentional communicators uh do a lot of intentional communicators uh do a lot of intentional strategy work around Ministry models strategy work around Ministry models strategy work around Ministry models discipleship Pathways things like that

discipleship Pathways things like that discipleship Pathways things like that and helping people lead change as you and helping people lead change as you and helping people lead change as you know uh the world is constantly changing know uh the world is constantly changing know uh the world is constantly changing and so if leaders cannot work on it if and so if leaders cannot work on it if and so if leaders cannot work on it if they're constantly working in it the they're constantly working in it the they're constantly working in it the world around them kind of leaves them in world around them kind of leaves them in world around them kind of leaves them in the dust and so I help leaders and the dust and so I help leaders and the dust and so I help leaders and Ministries keep up with what's happening Ministries keep up with what's happening Ministries keep up with what's happening without losing the Theology and losing without losing the Theology and losing without losing the Theology and losing the core of their DNA but to figure out the core of their DNA but to figure out the core of their DNA but to figure out how to execute Ministry in these more how to execute Ministry in these more how to execute Ministry in these more complex environments that we have now complex environments that we have now complex environments that we have now found found herself said yeah uh very found found herself said yeah uh very found found herself said yeah uh very interesting Journey the first time we interesting Journey the first time we interesting Journey the first time we had you on the show there were two had you on the show there were two had you on the show there were two things to note one you had just finished things to note one you had just finished things to note one you had just finished your doctorate so I introduced you as your doctorate so I introduced you as your doctorate so I introduced you as dror Gavin Adams I remember that and and dror Gavin Adams I remember that and and dror Gavin Adams I remember that and and secondly you were just beginning or had secondly you were just beginning or had secondly you were just beginning or had just maybe you just completed the just maybe you just completed the just maybe you just completed the transition out of Woodstock City Church transition out of Woodstock City Church transition out of Woodstock City Church there so um been kind of you know there so um been kind of you know there so um been kind of you know watching your journey here over the the watching your journey here over the the watching your journey here over the the course of the last few years and it's course of the last few years and it's course of the last few years and it's really really cool to see what God is really really cool to see what God is really really cool to see what God is doing in and and through your ministry doing in and and through your ministry doing in and and through your ministry now there are about a hundred different now there are about a hundred different now there are about a hundred different reasons that we could have you on this reasons that we could have you on this reasons that we could have you on this show because you're gifted in so many show because you're gifted in so many show because you're gifted in so many areas and have have so much Insight on areas and have have so much Insight on areas and have have so much Insight on so many different things but we have a so many different things but we have a so many different things but we have a very specific reason for having you on very specific reason for having you on very specific reason for having you on the show today and that is to talk about the show today and that is to talk about the show today and that is to talk about a brand new book that um at the time a brand new book that um at the time a brand new book that um at the time that this podcast uh is released will that this podcast uh is released will that this podcast uh is released will have been like fresh on the market for I have been like fresh on the market for I have been like fresh on the market for I think like three days um your new book think like three days um your new book think like three days um your new book is called big shoes to fill big shoes to is called big shoes to fill big shoes to is called big shoes to fill big shoes to fill um and it's got a cover that has a fill um and it's got a cover that has a fill um and it's got a cover that has a whole bunch of big shoes on it you whole bunch of big shoes on it you whole bunch of big shoes on it you happen to have a copy handy right there happen to have a copy handy right there happen to have a copy handy right there so yeah yeah got one here okay big big so yeah yeah got one here okay big big so yeah yeah got one here okay big big shoes okay it's a book with a bunch of

shoes okay it's a book with a bunch of shoes okay it's a book with a bunch of big shoes on it all right big shoes Phil big shoes on it all right big shoes Phil big shoes on it all right big shoes Phil we're gonna we're gonna talk about this we're gonna we're gonna talk about this we're gonna we're gonna talk about this book book book um and you know what it's not uncommon um and you know what it's not uncommon um and you know what it's not uncommon for a leader of your caliber with your for a leader of your caliber with your for a leader of your caliber with your gifts and your talents uh to spend time gifts and your talents uh to spend time gifts and your talents uh to spend time writing a book but what you choose to writing a book but what you choose to writing a book but what you choose to write about I think is really really write about I think is really really write about I think is really really important why did you choose this important why did you choose this important why did you choose this particular content tell us what it's particular content tell us what it's particular content tell us what it's about and and what led you to this about and and what led you to this about and and what led you to this particular place of of of writing big particular place of of of writing big particular place of of of writing big shoes to fill well I mentioned earlier shoes to fill well I mentioned earlier shoes to fill well I mentioned earlier that I just really have a passion for that I just really have a passion for that I just really have a passion for leaders and Leadership and the more I leaders and Leadership and the more I leaders and Leadership and the more I began interfacing with leaders in the began interfacing with leaders in the began interfacing with leaders in the current job that I have the more I current job that I have the more I current job that I have the more I realize that we were constantly seeing realize that we were constantly seeing realize that we were constantly seeing leaders enter organizations exit leaders enter organizations exit leaders enter organizations exit organizations we were seeing point organizations we were seeing point organizations we were seeing point leaders but also leaders of departments leaders but also leaders of departments leaders but also leaders of departments divisions of Ministries and uh the um divisions of Ministries and uh the um divisions of Ministries and uh the um kind of the rapidness of this change is kind of the rapidness of this change is kind of the rapidness of this change is increasing the research shows right now increasing the research shows right now increasing the research shows right now that the average person stays in a job that the average person stays in a job that the average person stays in a job 4.1 years right now um if you're a 4.1 years right now um if you're a 4.1 years right now um if you're a millennial it's even quicker it's every millennial it's even quicker it's every millennial it's even quicker it's every three years Millennials as a generation three years Millennials as a generation three years Millennials as a generation are changing jobs and so um when I began are changing jobs and so um when I began are changing jobs and so um when I began thinking about how disruptive that is to thinking about how disruptive that is to thinking about how disruptive that is to organizations and obviously to churches organizations and obviously to churches organizations and obviously to churches uh and then I started thinking about my uh and then I started thinking about my uh and then I started thinking about my own story I mentioned earlier but I got own story I mentioned earlier but I got own story I mentioned earlier but I got to help plant a church but then I got to to help plant a church but then I got to to help plant a church but then I got to uh leave after three years come to uh leave after three years come to uh leave after three years come to Woodstock City it was called water our Woodstock City it was called water our Woodstock City it was called water our church back then I was a revitalization church back then I was a revitalization church back then I was a revitalization pastor our church was in really bad pastor our church was in really bad pastor our church was in really bad shape that had an opportunity to be a shape that had an opportunity to be a shape that had an opportunity to be a part of that revitalization but I walked

part of that revitalization but I walked part of that revitalization but I walked into a leadership space to take over into a leadership space to take over into a leadership space to take over something that I did not create I didn't something that I did not create I didn't something that I did not create I didn't start it but now I had inherited it I start it but now I had inherited it I start it but now I had inherited it I inherited a team I inherited a culture i inherited a team I inherited a culture i inherited a team I inherited a culture i inherited the problems I inherited the inherited the problems I inherited the inherited the problems I inherited the promises that had been made by the promises that had been made by the promises that had been made by the previous leader I mean everything that I previous leader I mean everything that I previous leader I mean everything that I was leading I didn't start but I had to was leading I didn't start but I had to was leading I didn't start but I had to figure out how to lead it even though I figure out how to lead it even though I figure out how to lead it even though I didn't create it I had another didn't create it I had another didn't create it I had another opportunity to do that we bought and opportunity to do that we bought and opportunity to do that we bought and have subsequently gotten rid of a coffee have subsequently gotten rid of a coffee have subsequently gotten rid of a coffee shop but I did for about a year I leted shop but I did for about a year I leted shop but I did for about a year I leted a coffee shop and I didn't start the a coffee shop and I didn't start the a coffee shop and I didn't start the coffee shop and so I realized that that coffee shop and so I realized that that coffee shop and so I realized that that story wasn't unique right if you're not story wasn't unique right if you're not story wasn't unique right if you're not a founder of an organization you are a founder of an organization you are a founder of an organization you are inheriting something and whether you're inheriting something and whether you're inheriting something and whether you're going to be the CEO and sit in a SE going to be the CEO and sit in a SE going to be the CEO and sit in a SE Suite or whether you're going to be a Suite or whether you're going to be a Suite or whether you're going to be a team or a department division lead odds team or a department division lead odds team or a department division lead odds are almost all of us that are leading are almost all of us that are leading are almost all of us that are leading something didn't create what we're something didn't create what we're something didn't create what we're leading and so how do we do that really leading and so how do we do that really leading and so how do we do that really really well that's really the impetus really well that's really the impetus really well that's really the impetus behind writing big shoes to fill it's behind writing big shoes to fill it's behind writing big shoes to fill it's huge you know our primary audience those huge you know our primary audience those huge you know our primary audience those that are are are listening to this um that are are are listening to this um that are are are listening to this um there are some pastors probably some there are some pastors probably some there are some pastors probably some executive pastors um but the the executive pastors um but the the executive pastors um but the the majority of our audience are people who majority of our audience are people who majority of our audience are people who sit in the space of being Church sit in the space of being Church sit in the space of being Church Communications directors or creative Communications directors or creative Communications directors or creative directors and and that sort of that that directors and and that sort of that that directors and and that sort of that that sort of role and you know it's it's sort of role and you know it's it's sort of role and you know it's it's interesting to me and I I don't know how interesting to me and I I don't know how interesting to me and I I don't know how you would sort of dissect this you know you would sort of dissect this you know you would sort of dissect this you know there are certain things I think that we there are certain things I think that we there are certain things I think that we assume that if you're if you're stepping assume that if you're if you're stepping assume that if you're if you're stepping into the role of being the new senior into the role of being the new senior into the role of being the new senior pastor or the new executive leader of an pastor or the new executive leader of an pastor or the new executive leader of an organization even though you didn't

organization even though you didn't organization even though you didn't necessarily create it there is some I necessarily create it there is some I necessarily create it there is some I don't know some Authority that's don't know some Authority that's don't know some Authority that's automatically given to you and there's automatically given to you and there's automatically given to you and there's certain level of of of autonomy maybe certain level of of of autonomy maybe certain level of of of autonomy maybe that you have in your decision-making that you have in your decision-making that you have in your decision-making when you're taking something over it is when you're taking something over it is when you're taking something over it is very different when you're kind of in very different when you're kind of in very different when you're kind of in the middle of the ladder right when the middle of the ladder right when the middle of the ladder right when you're not necessarily the leader of the you're not necessarily the leader of the you're not necessarily the leader of the organization yet you still lead part of organization yet you still lead part of organization yet you still lead part of the organization and you're stepping in the organization and you're stepping in the organization and you're stepping in to take on something that someone else to take on something that someone else to take on something that someone else created and someone else previously uh created and someone else previously uh created and someone else previously uh LED let's talk a little bit about some LED let's talk a little bit about some LED let's talk a little bit about some of the challenges that you see new of the challenges that you see new of the challenges that you see new leaders experiencing in experiencing leaders experiencing in experiencing leaders experiencing in experiencing when they step into leading something when they step into leading something when they step into leading something that they didn't build what are some of that they didn't build what are some of that they didn't build what are some of the common pitfalls or some of the the common pitfalls or some of the the common pitfalls or some of the common obstacles that you see well and common obstacles that you see well and common obstacles that you see well and and they're vast and so we'll we'll just and they're vast and so we'll we'll just and they're vast and so we'll we'll just cover a few things of course the book cover a few things of course the book cover a few things of course the book into a lot of it but um you know and into a lot of it but um you know and into a lot of it but um you know and just really quick to your point you are just really quick to your point you are just really quick to your point you are right um Everybody stepping into a right um Everybody stepping into a right um Everybody stepping into a leadership space is stepping into leadership space is stepping into leadership space is stepping into something unique and so in the book what something unique and so in the book what something unique and so in the book what I really try to do is create a uh a I really try to do is create a uh a I really try to do is create a uh a framework uh for people so that they can framework uh for people so that they can framework uh for people so that they can develop the strategy that works best for develop the strategy that works best for develop the strategy that works best for their unique situation there is no kind their unique situation there is no kind their unique situation there is no kind of Magic Bullet oneid fits all because of Magic Bullet oneid fits all because of Magic Bullet oneid fits all because every situation is unique you just every situation is unique you just every situation is unique you just mentioned one yourself if you're mentioned one yourself if you're mentioned one yourself if you're stepping into a senior pastor or XP role stepping into a senior pastor or XP role stepping into a senior pastor or XP role that's a little different than stepping that's a little different than stepping that's a little different than stepping into a community ation director role or into a community ation director role or into a community ation director role or a youth pastor role or an administrative a youth pastor role or an administrative a youth pastor role or an administrative role however um to borrow from John role however um to borrow from John role however um to borrow from John Maxwell which we should probably always Maxwell which we should probably always Maxwell which we should probably always do leadership is influence right um do leadership is influence right um do leadership is influence right um that's really what leadership is which

that's really what leadership is which that's really what leadership is which means every one of us no matter what the means every one of us no matter what the means every one of us no matter what the role we have are leaders because we have role we have are leaders because we have role we have are leaders because we have influence over something now the issue influence over something now the issue influence over something now the issue that you brought up is very important that you brought up is very important that you brought up is very important the senior pastor the executive Pastor the senior pastor the executive Pastor the senior pastor the executive Pastor because of their title they may have because of their title they may have because of their title they may have some automatic Authority however some automatic Authority however some automatic Authority however Authority doesn't always equal influence Authority doesn't always equal influence Authority doesn't always equal influence one of the biggest issues that I see in one of the biggest issues that I see in one of the biggest issues that I see in this space is people assuming positional this space is people assuming positional this space is people assuming positional Authority Trump's relational influence Authority Trump's relational influence Authority Trump's relational influence and it does for the moment but it and it does for the moment but it and it does for the moment but it doesn't long term and so regardless of doesn't long term and so regardless of doesn't long term and so regardless of uh the the the the role you're stepping uh the the the the role you're stepping uh the the the the role you're stepping into whether it's the most senior in the into whether it's the most senior in the into whether it's the most senior in the organization uh or somewhere lower in organization uh or somewhere lower in organization uh or somewhere lower in the org chart the reality is that if the org chart the reality is that if the org chart the reality is that if you're relying on the title to gain the you're relying on the title to gain the you're relying on the title to gain the influence you're really relying on the influence you're really relying on the influence you're really relying on the wrong thing so in the book we talk a lot wrong thing so in the book we talk a lot wrong thing so in the book we talk a lot about that tension how do we begin to about that tension how do we begin to about that tension how do we begin to Foster more relational influence over Foster more relational influence over Foster more relational influence over this inherited team and think about how this inherited team and think about how this inherited team and think about how complicated that is I mean if if you're complicated that is I mean if if you're complicated that is I mean if if you're stepping in let's go a little lower in stepping in let's go a little lower in stepping in let's go a little lower in the OR chart but even at the top to be the OR chart but even at the top to be the OR chart but even at the top to be honest you're not the only person who honest you're not the only person who honest you're not the only person who was interviewed for this job you're not was interviewed for this job you're not was interviewed for this job you're not the only person potentially even in the the only person potentially even in the the only person potentially even in the organization that has interviewed for organization that has interviewed for organization that has interviewed for the job uh often times h a a new leader the job uh often times h a a new leader the job uh often times h a a new leader may rise up from within the organization may rise up from within the organization may rise up from within the organization but not always a lot of time we're but not always a lot of time we're but not always a lot of time we're bringing in someone from the outside and bringing in someone from the outside and bringing in someone from the outside and so imagine your coming in from the so imagine your coming in from the so imagine your coming in from the outside to lead an organization and one outside to lead an organization and one outside to lead an organization and one or two people within your staff also or two people within your staff also or two people within your staff also interviewed for your job I I I have two interviewed for your job I I I have two interviewed for your job I I I have two chapters in the book dedicated to the chapters in the book dedicated to the chapters in the book dedicated to the tensions that we have to manage in this

tensions that we have to manage in this tensions that we have to manage in this space because it is so vast so space because it is so vast so space because it is so vast so organizationally there are tensions uh organizationally there are tensions uh organizationally there are tensions uh there are rhythms that are established there are rhythms that are established there are rhythms that are established that might not fit your rhythms that's that might not fit your rhythms that's that might not fit your rhythms that's going to be a really tough thing to going to be a really tough thing to going to be a really tough thing to balance uh there are things that you in balance uh there are things that you in balance uh there are things that you in your interview talked about wanting to your interview talked about wanting to your interview talked about wanting to change and in the church space the change and in the church space the change and in the church space the elders were very excited about what you elders were very excited about what you elders were very excited about what you had to say until you started doing it I had to say until you started doing it I had to say until you started doing it I see this all the time I was talking with see this all the time I was talking with see this all the time I was talking with uh William Vander Blom you probably know uh William Vander Blom you probably know uh William Vander Blom you probably know William he's a friend of mine I I had 10 William he's a friend of mine I I had 10 William he's a friend of mine I I had 10 or so leaders that contributed to the or so leaders that contributed to the or so leaders that contributed to the book he was one of them and talking to book he was one of them and talking to book he was one of them and talking to William you know he is in the church William you know he is in the church William you know he is in the church Staffing business and said this Staffing business and said this Staffing business and said this constantly that the board of directors constantly that the board of directors constantly that the board of directors and the hiring teams are always they and the hiring teams are always they and the hiring teams are always they always overestimate the amount of change always overestimate the amount of change always overestimate the amount of change they actually want to have so again you they actually want to have so again you they actually want to have so again you come in there's all that there's a team come in there's all that there's a team come in there's all that there's a team you're inheriting that by the way you you're inheriting that by the way you you're inheriting that by the way you didn't choose if you're following a didn't choose if you're following a didn't choose if you're following a leader who did it well they probably leader who did it well they probably leader who did it well they probably built a team that helped them succeed by built a team that helped them succeed by built a team that helped them succeed by filling in their gaps that's what great filling in their gaps that's what great filling in their gaps that's what great leaders do um well your gaps are not leaders do um well your gaps are not leaders do um well your gaps are not going to be the same as the previous going to be the same as the previous going to be the same as the previous leaders nor are your strengths going to leaders nor are your strengths going to leaders nor are your strengths going to be the same as the previous leader which be the same as the previous leader which be the same as the previous leader which means that some of the people who are means that some of the people who are means that some of the people who are currently on the team might not be on currently on the team might not be on currently on the team might not be on the team long term and that's a tough the team long term and that's a tough the team long term and that's a tough reality but it's true or uh they may reality but it's true or uh they may reality but it's true or uh they may need to be on a different seat on the need to be on a different seat on the need to be on a different seat on the team and so navigating that is so team and so navigating that is so team and so navigating that is so complicated and then of course there's complicated and then of course there's complicated and then of course there's so much interpersonal challenges with so much interpersonal challenges with so much interpersonal challenges with this when you step into a new leadership this when you step into a new leadership this when you step into a new leadership role you feel immediately like you're

role you feel immediately like you're role you feel immediately like you're being evaluated and judged right I mean being evaluated and judged right I mean being evaluated and judged right I mean you went through a judgmental process you went through a judgmental process you went through a judgmental process that's the interview so people have that's the interview so people have that's the interview so people have interviewed you but everybody on your interviewed you but everybody on your interviewed you but everybody on your inherited team probably didn't interview inherited team probably didn't interview inherited team probably didn't interview you they they probably didn't have an you they they probably didn't have an you they they probably didn't have an equal say they just got you you just equal say they just got you you just equal say they just got you you just showed up and by the way they're showed up and by the way they're showed up and by the way they're skeptical of you they don't know what to skeptical of you they don't know what to skeptical of you they don't know what to expect they don't know and and this is expect they don't know and and this is expect they don't know and and this is what's so funny to me in in in studying what's so funny to me in in in studying what's so funny to me in in in studying and writing this talked to a lot of and writing this talked to a lot of and writing this talked to a lot of leaders who followed beloved leaders I leaders who followed beloved leaders I leaders who followed beloved leaders I talked to a lot of leaders who followed talked to a lot of leaders who followed talked to a lot of leaders who followed more bemoaned and disliked leaders uh more bemoaned and disliked leaders uh more bemoaned and disliked leaders uh you would think Following the disliked you would think Following the disliked you would think Following the disliked Leader would be easier and in some cases Leader would be easier and in some cases Leader would be easier and in some cases it is but in both scenarios whether the it is but in both scenarios whether the it is but in both scenarios whether the team liked their previous boss leader or team liked their previous boss leader or team liked their previous boss leader or not they were comfortable with them they not they were comfortable with them they not they were comfortable with them they knew what to expect everything was clear knew what to expect everything was clear knew what to expect everything was clear even if they didn't like it at least even if they didn't like it at least even if they didn't like it at least they knew what to do right it's like they knew what to do right it's like they knew what to do right it's like everybody was sitting in a lazy boy and everybody was sitting in a lazy boy and everybody was sitting in a lazy boy and now they have been thrust out of it and now they have been thrust out of it and now they have been thrust out of it and they're so uncomfortable because they they're so uncomfortable because they they're so uncomfortable because they don't know who you are they don't know don't know who you are they don't know don't know who you are they don't know what your expectations are they they what your expectations are they they what your expectations are they they don't know if you're going to like them don't know if you're going to like them don't know if you're going to like them or if you're if they're GNA like you so or if you're if they're GNA like you so or if you're if they're GNA like you so there's this interpersonal Challenge and there's this interpersonal Challenge and there's this interpersonal Challenge and and intentions that we're managing as and intentions that we're managing as and intentions that we're managing as well that we want to be liked uh when we well that we want to be liked uh when we well that we want to be liked uh when we step in we have a tendency to want to step in we have a tendency to want to step in we have a tendency to want to maybe put the previous uh leader down to maybe put the previous uh leader down to maybe put the previous uh leader down to give ourselves self a leg up I mean give ourselves self a leg up I mean give ourselves self a leg up I mean there's all of these kind of tensions there's all of these kind of tensions there's all of these kind of tensions that we're managing so again I could go that we're managing so again I could go that we're managing so again I could go on for hours about it but that's why I on for hours about it but that's why I on for hours about it but that's why I wrote the book there's so much behind wrote the book there's so much behind wrote the book there's so much behind this kind of stepping in without as the this kind of stepping in without as the this kind of stepping in without as the tagline is without stepping in it as you tagline is without stepping in it as you tagline is without stepping in it as you do yeah it it's very interesting you you

do yeah it it's very interesting you you do yeah it it's very interesting you you hit on something that that I was hit on something that that I was hit on something that that I was actually going to have follow-up actually going to have follow-up actually going to have follow-up questions about which was the idea of questions about which was the idea of questions about which was the idea of following a leader you You' got some following a leader you You' got some following a leader you You' got some leaders who leave having killed it and leaders who leave having killed it and leaders who leave having killed it and some who leave after having blown it up some who leave after having blown it up some who leave after having blown it up right you've got some that that leave right you've got some that that leave right you've got some that that leave well and some that leave with a lot of well and some that leave with a lot of well and some that leave with a lot of collateral damage in your experience and collateral damage in your experience and collateral damage in your experience and what you you've seen um what are the key what you you've seen um what are the key what you you've seen um what are the key nuances for a new leader stepping in nuances for a new leader stepping in nuances for a new leader stepping in based on those two scenarios if I'm based on those two scenarios if I'm based on those two scenarios if I'm stepping into something and I know that stepping into something and I know that stepping into something and I know that I'm I'm replacing a beloved founder or I'm I'm replacing a beloved founder or I'm I'm replacing a beloved founder or I'm replacing that beloved Pastor who I'm replacing that beloved Pastor who I'm replacing that beloved Pastor who served in this church for 25 or 30 years served in this church for 25 or 30 years served in this church for 25 or 30 years or their picture is hanging on the lobby or their picture is hanging on the lobby or their picture is hanging on the lobby wall wall wall right exactly I'm replacing someone who right exactly I'm replacing someone who right exactly I'm replacing someone who really really succeeded and really did really really succeeded and really did really really succeeded and really did well on their team was really well well on their team was really well well on their team was really well respected versus someone who who really respected versus someone who who really respected versus someone who who really left with you know they were chased out left with you know they were chased out left with you know they were chased out of town like it could be you know a lot of town like it could be you know a lot of town like it could be you know a lot of different reasons for for that what's of different reasons for for that what's of different reasons for for that what's some of the Nuance what are some things some of the Nuance what are some things some of the Nuance what are some things that as a leader coming into those types that as a leader coming into those types that as a leader coming into those types of scenarios ought I be looking out for of scenarios ought I be looking out for of scenarios ought I be looking out for or things I maybe need to maybe you can or things I maybe need to maybe you can or things I maybe need to maybe you can caution me on yeah that's a big question caution me on yeah that's a big question caution me on yeah that's a big question so let's let's touch on it uh on both of so let's let's touch on it uh on both of so let's let's touch on it uh on both of those um and before I talk about them uh those um and before I talk about them uh those um and before I talk about them uh on my site and this is obviously going on my site and this is obviously going on my site and this is obviously going to come out before the pre-order in is to come out before the pre-order in is to come out before the pre-order in is over but um if you go to my website and over but um if you go to my website and over but um if you go to my website and just shoot me a message or email me I just shoot me a message or email me I just shoot me a message or email me I created uh 10 companion guides for the created uh 10 companion guides for the created uh 10 companion guides for the book because these situations are so book because these situations are so book because these situations are so unique and so I have a companion guide unique and so I have a companion guide unique and so I have a companion guide for the leader following a beloved for the leader following a beloved for the leader following a beloved leader and also a companion guide for

leader and also a companion guide for leader and also a companion guide for the person following the more disliked the person following the more disliked the person following the more disliked bemon leader so I I'd love to provide bemon leader so I I'd love to provide bemon leader so I I'd love to provide that to anyone who wants it as well so that to anyone who wants it as well so that to anyone who wants it as well so to quickly answer your question when to quickly answer your question when to quickly answer your question when you're following a beloved leader I've you're following a beloved leader I've you're following a beloved leader I've got a friend who's doing this we've been got a friend who's doing this we've been got a friend who's doing this we've been working together on it for a while while working together on it for a while while working together on it for a while while um the person's picture his family um the person's picture his family um the person's picture his family picture is hanging in the hall the guy picture is hanging in the hall the guy picture is hanging in the hall the guy was there for 30s something years right was there for 30s something years right was there for 30s something years right now now the new person is there now now now the new person is there now now now the new person is there now here's a quick funny story even about it here's a quick funny story even about it here's a quick funny story even about it uh uh within the first couple of months uh uh within the first couple of months uh uh within the first couple of months of the new guy being there um there were of the new guy being there um there were of the new guy being there um there were some lights in the hallway that were out some lights in the hallway that were out some lights in the hallway that were out they changed the lights out somebody they changed the lights out somebody they changed the lights out somebody that next Sunday said well the previous that next Sunday said well the previous that next Sunday said well the previous my my previous Pastor wouldn't have done my my previous Pastor wouldn't have done my my previous Pastor wouldn't have done it that way just with the lights yeah it that way just with the lights yeah it that way just with the lights yeah not I mean we're not talking about not I mean we're not talking about not I mean we're not talking about Ministry strategy or preaching style or Ministry strategy or preaching style or Ministry strategy or preaching style or whatever so following a beloved leader whatever so following a beloved leader whatever so following a beloved leader is really really challenging when you is really really challenging when you is really really challenging when you when you follow a beloved leader um your when you follow a beloved leader um your when you follow a beloved leader um your temptation is to is going to be to want temptation is to is going to be to want temptation is to is going to be to want to change things to kind of put your to change things to kind of put your to change things to kind of put your thumb print on it to make your mark to thumb print on it to make your mark to thumb print on it to make your mark to almost be um highly visible and maybe almost be um highly visible and maybe almost be um highly visible and maybe even stronger than you need to be to even stronger than you need to be to even stronger than you need to be to kind of enforce your your position but kind of enforce your your position but kind of enforce your your position but remember positional uh Authority is not remember positional uh Authority is not remember positional uh Authority is not the goal relational influence is the the goal relational influence is the the goal relational influence is the goal and so what I coach leaders to do goal and so what I coach leaders to do goal and so what I coach leaders to do when they're replacing a beloved leader when they're replacing a beloved leader when they're replacing a beloved leader is to belove the leader with everybody is to belove the leader with everybody is to belove the leader with everybody else agree with everybody because here's else agree with everybody because here's else agree with everybody because here's what's happening I mean I spend a lot of what's happening I mean I spend a lot of what's happening I mean I spend a lot of time in the book on this but here's time in the book on this but here's time in the book on this but here's what's happening people are not what's happening people are not what's happening people are not resisting you as the new leader they're resisting you as the new leader they're resisting you as the new leader they're resisting the loss of the leader that resisting the loss of the leader that resisting the loss of the leader that they loved they're not against you they

they loved they're not against you they they loved they're not against you they just don't want to have to change and we just don't want to have to change and we just don't want to have to change and we we hear this all the time people resist we hear this all the time people resist we hear this all the time people resist change which is not really true right if change which is not really true right if change which is not really true right if someone comes to you and says I want to someone comes to you and says I want to someone comes to you and says I want to double your salary you don't say no no double your salary you don't say no no double your salary you don't say no no no I'm resistant to change I mean change no I'm resistant to change I mean change no I'm resistant to change I mean change isn't the problem loss is the problem isn't the problem loss is the problem isn't the problem loss is the problem and so when people lose something that and so when people lose something that and so when people lose something that they uh even if they don't want it but they uh even if they don't want it but they uh even if they don't want it but especially if they do want it when you especially if they do want it when you especially if they do want it when you lose something it creates grief and lose something it creates grief and lose something it creates grief and therefore and it looks like resistance therefore and it looks like resistance therefore and it looks like resistance and so what really a leader should do is and so what really a leader should do is and so what really a leader should do is come alongside and help the people come alongside and help the people come alongside and help the people grieve the loss not try to pretend that grieve the loss not try to pretend that grieve the loss not try to pretend that it's not happening or that that grief it's not happening or that that grief it's not happening or that that grief isn't a real thing or see it as isn't a real thing or see it as isn't a real thing or see it as resistance and so I encourage leaders resistance and so I encourage leaders resistance and so I encourage leaders following a beloved leader to just following a beloved leader to just following a beloved leader to just Embrace what they're losing and to Embrace what they're losing and to Embrace what they're losing and to acknowledge it because by the way you acknowledge it because by the way you acknowledge it because by the way you know this right every counselor would know this right every counselor would know this right every counselor would say this you can't move past what you say this you can't move past what you say this you can't move past what you can't name most people don't know that can't name most people don't know that can't name most people don't know that it's grief that they're feeling they it's grief that they're feeling they it's grief that they're feeling they just feel frustrated they feel sad they just feel frustrated they feel sad they just feel frustrated they feel sad they feel angry and they end up taking it out feel angry and they end up taking it out feel angry and they end up taking it out maybe on the new leader so it's our job maybe on the new leader so it's our job maybe on the new leader so it's our job to kind of walk by the well this is the to kind of walk by the well this is the to kind of walk by the well this is the mental picture I always have see the mental picture I always have see the mental picture I always have see the person grieving at the bottom of the person grieving at the bottom of the person grieving at the bottom of the well and instead of lowering a lowering well and instead of lowering a lowering well and instead of lowering a lowering a ladder and saying come on up here and a ladder and saying come on up here and a ladder and saying come on up here and listen to How Great my vision is instead listen to How Great my vision is instead listen to How Great my vision is instead we climb down the ladder and sit with we climb down the ladder and sit with we climb down the ladder and sit with the person and we help them name what the person and we help them name what the person and we help them name what their feelings so now they can move past their feelings so now they can move past their feelings so now they can move past it by the way helping you gain it by the way helping you gain it by the way helping you gain relational influence in the process so relational influence in the process so relational influence in the process so following a beloved leader very following a beloved leader very following a beloved leader very complicated um following a disliked

complicated um following a disliked complicated um following a disliked leader here's what's so funny to me leader here's what's so funny to me leader here's what's so funny to me about this as I talked to a few about this as I talked to a few about this as I talked to a few different people um some really smart different people um some really smart different people um some really smart people way smarter than me um Frank people way smarter than me um Frank people way smarter than me um Frank Blake who was the Home Depot uh CEO Blake who was the Home Depot uh CEO Blake who was the Home Depot uh CEO Cheryl batchelder popey's CEO both Cheryl batchelder popey's CEO both Cheryl batchelder popey's CEO both former CEOs they've had experiences former CEOs they've had experiences former CEOs they've had experiences following beloved and Nots Soo loved following beloved and Nots Soo loved following beloved and Nots Soo loved leaders and they talked about when they leaders and they talked about when they leaders and they talked about when they followed these kind of Nots so loved followed these kind of Nots so loved followed these kind of Nots so loved leaders there's this tendency to walk in leaders there's this tendency to walk in leaders there's this tendency to walk in and and almost like and you would never and and almost like and you would never and and almost like and you would never say this out loud but to walk in and say this out loud but to walk in and say this out loud but to walk in and think uh the savior is here you know uh think uh the savior is here you know uh think uh the savior is here you know uh finally you know someone to lead you is finally you know someone to lead you is finally you know someone to lead you is here in the reality it is weird as it is here in the reality it is weird as it is here in the reality it is weird as it is even when a a team was working with a even when a a team was working with a even when a a team was working with a leader they didn't like at least they leader they didn't like at least they leader they didn't like at least they knew what to expect as I mentioned knew what to expect as I mentioned knew what to expect as I mentioned earlier they were comfortable with what earlier they were comfortable with what earlier they were comfortable with what they had so when the day you walk in if they had so when the day you walk in if they had so when the day you walk in if you expect everybody to throw a parade you expect everybody to throw a parade you expect everybody to throw a parade you are expecting wrong because for all you are expecting wrong because for all you are expecting wrong because for all the team knows you may be worse for all the team knows you may be worse for all the team knows you may be worse for all the team knows your expectations may not the team knows your expectations may not the team knows your expectations may not meet with what they are able to do I meet with what they are able to do I meet with what they are able to do I mean it's so much discomfort for people mean it's so much discomfort for people mean it's so much discomfort for people in that state so our temptation is to in that state so our temptation is to in that state so our temptation is to kind of put down the previous leader to kind of put down the previous leader to kind of put down the previous leader to give our s kind of that leg up that's give our s kind of that leg up that's give our s kind of that leg up that's the worst thing we can do so what we the worst thing we can do so what we the worst thing we can do so what we really need to do when we're following a really need to do when we're following a really need to do when we're following a disliked leader or just a poor leader or disliked leader or just a poor leader or disliked leader or just a poor leader or in the church world as much as we hate in the church world as much as we hate in the church world as much as we hate it a lot of leaders a lot of pastors it a lot of leaders a lot of pastors it a lot of leaders a lot of pastors leave because of failures moral failures leave because of failures moral failures leave because of failures moral failures different kinds of things like that to different kinds of things like that to different kinds of things like that to walk in and pretend it didn't happen is walk in and pretend it didn't happen is walk in and pretend it didn't happen is silly right but to walk in and use it as

silly right but to walk in and use it as silly right but to walk in and use it as a comparative for you and your success a comparative for you and your success a comparative for you and your success that's not leadership a a a leader who that's not leadership a a a leader who that's not leadership a a a leader who has to have an enemy or a comparative to has to have an enemy or a comparative to has to have an enemy or a comparative to lead isn't leading so you can't ignore lead isn't leading so you can't ignore lead isn't leading so you can't ignore it you can't pretend it didn't happen it you can't pretend it didn't happen it you can't pretend it didn't happen but you also have to come in and build but you also have to come in and build but you also have to come in and build those relationships with people and by those relationships with people and by those relationships with people and by the way unhealthy leaders typically the way unhealthy leaders typically the way unhealthy leaders typically leave very unhealthy teams so to think leave very unhealthy teams so to think leave very unhealthy teams so to think it's going to be easier think again it's going to be easier think again it's going to be easier think again you're probably inheriting more poison you're probably inheriting more poison you're probably inheriting more poison toxin in the organizational bloodstream toxin in the organizational bloodstream toxin in the organizational bloodstream than the Beloved leader has left it's than the Beloved leader has left it's than the Beloved leader has left it's going to take longer to rebuild trust going to take longer to rebuild trust going to take longer to rebuild trust it's going to take longer for them to it's going to take longer for them to it's going to take longer for them to lean in relationally with you because by lean in relationally with you because by lean in relationally with you because by the way they probably leaned in with the the way they probably leaned in with the the way they probably leaned in with the previous person who burned them so they previous person who burned them so they previous person who burned them so they feel so again it all is going to come feel so again it all is going to come feel so again it all is going to come back to the relationships you're able to back to the relationships you're able to back to the relationships you're able to form and the process that you go about form and the process that you go about form and the process that you go about to ensure that you're prioritizing those to ensure that you're prioritizing those to ensure that you're prioritizing those interpersonal uh connections yeah you interpersonal uh connections yeah you interpersonal uh connections yeah you know from a in when we talking about know from a in when we talking about know from a in when we talking about leadership there's there's obviously leadership there's there's obviously leadership there's there's obviously there's two aspects to what you're doing there's two aspects to what you're doing there's two aspects to what you're doing and it again it depends on sort of where and it again it depends on sort of where and it again it depends on sort of where you fall you fall you fall organizationally uh on your team uh you organizationally uh on your team uh you organizationally uh on your team uh you may be a person whose primary may be a person whose primary may be a person whose primary responsibilities are are to cast vision responsibilities are are to cast vision responsibilities are are to cast vision and to lead and to give direction and to lead and to give direction and to lead and to give direction organizationally or you may be leading a organizationally or you may be leading a organizationally or you may be leading a team that is primarily there to execute team that is primarily there to execute team that is primarily there to execute on strategy that's determined by someone on strategy that's determined by someone on strategy that's determined by someone else right so you could be anywhere or else right so you could be anywhere or else right so you could be anywhere or organizationally either way I'll go back organizationally either way I'll go back organizationally either way I'll go back to an ed young ISM that I learned some to an ed young ISM that I learned some to an ed young ISM that I learned some 22 years ago and that is the best

22 years ago and that is the best 22 years ago and that is the best leaders ask the best questions and I'm leaders ask the best questions and I'm leaders ask the best questions and I'm as you're as you're talking about this as you're as you're talking about this as you're as you're talking about this like the the visual image of the the like the the visual image of the the like the the visual image of the the person in the well is what really made person in the well is what really made person in the well is what really made me sort of process this and I love that me sort of process this and I love that me sort of process this and I love that analogy Gavin is that until we ask analogy Gavin is that until we ask analogy Gavin is that until we ask people deep honest sincere questions people deep honest sincere questions people deep honest sincere questions about where they are and how they feel about where they are and how they feel about where they are and how they feel and what their expectations are and what and what their expectations are and what and what their expectations are and what their hopes and their dreams are whether their hopes and their dreams are whether their hopes and their dreams are whether they are the staff members that we're they are the staff members that we're they are the staff members that we're leading or if you're leading the church leading or if you're leading the church leading or if you're leading the church the congregants that have called you to the congregants that have called you to the congregants that have called you to be their Pastor until you know the be their Pastor until you know the be their Pastor until you know the answers to those questions it's really answers to those questions it's really answers to those questions it's really really really really difficult to set a course forward you difficult to set a course forward you difficult to set a course forward you know I I think you're right you you sat know I I think you're right you you sat know I I think you're right you you sat in the interview and you told everybody in the interview and you told everybody in the interview and you told everybody how amazing you were and what all the how amazing you were and what all the how amazing you were and what all the awesome things were that you were going awesome things were that you were going awesome things were that you were going to do if you were called to be the to do if you were called to be the to do if you were called to be the leader of this church this organization leader of this church this organization leader of this church this organization or fill this particular role on this or fill this particular role on this or fill this particular role on this team but the reality is once you get team but the reality is once you get team but the reality is once you get there you learn a whole lot more about there you learn a whole lot more about there you learn a whole lot more about the organization than there was that you the organization than there was that you the organization than there was that you could have known as an outsider looking could have known as an outsider looking could have known as an outsider looking in and secondly you start looking at the in and secondly you start looking at the in and secondly you start looking at the relationships that make what you're relationships that make what you're relationships that make what you're doing either very possible or very very doing either very possible or very very doing either very possible or very very very difficult and investing in those very difficult and investing in those very difficult and investing in those relationships in those early stages of relationships in those early stages of relationships in those early stages of your uh role as the leader is going to your uh role as the leader is going to your uh role as the leader is going to be so so important and I would say you be so so important and I would say you be so so important and I would say you know go and buy five legal pads and fill know go and buy five legal pads and fill know go and buy five legal pads and fill them all with questions over the course them all with questions over the course them all with questions over the course of the first five months just ask y a of the first five months just ask y a of the first five months just ask y a thousand questions and write down the thousand questions and write down the thousand questions and write down the anwers to those questions because the anwers to those questions because the anwers to those questions because the better you're able to process with better you're able to process with better you're able to process with people what they're grieving what people what they're grieving what people what they're grieving what they're hoping what they're looking

they're hoping what they're looking they're hoping what they're looking forward to I think the better it sets forward to I think the better it sets forward to I think the better it sets you up to be able to start making those you up to be able to start making those you up to be able to start making those relational withdrawals when you need to relational withdrawals when you need to relational withdrawals when you need to right it's like putting marbles in the right it's like putting marbles in the right it's like putting marbles in the jar in the early stages of right jar in the early stages of right jar in the early stages of right eventually you're withdraws yeah exactly eventually you're withdraws yeah exactly eventually you're withdraws yeah exactly wow very here's one thing really quick wow very here's one thing really quick wow very here's one thing really quick on yes really quick on that you know on yes really quick on that you know on yes really quick on that you know just just because you were chosen just just because you were chosen just just because you were chosen doesn't mean everybody chose you and so doesn't mean everybody chose you and so doesn't mean everybody chose you and so you've got to walk in without you've got to walk in without you've got to walk in without recognition and part two of the book the recognition and part two of the book the recognition and part two of the book the entire uh part two is dedicated to uh entire uh part two is dedicated to uh entire uh part two is dedicated to uh the the conversation about you can't the the conversation about you can't the the conversation about you can't lead until you learn and so we don't go lead until you learn and so we don't go lead until you learn and so we don't go in leading we go in learning one of my in leading we go in learning one of my in leading we go in learning one of my good friends Tinsley Al is the a newer good friends Tinsley Al is the a newer good friends Tinsley Al is the a newer CEO of Atlanta Mission it's a massive CEO of Atlanta Mission it's a massive CEO of Atlanta Mission it's a massive missions organization in Downtown missions organization in Downtown missions organization in Downtown Atlanta a huge $20 million organization Atlanta a huge $20 million organization Atlanta a huge $20 million organization uh he for the first six months called uh he for the first six months called uh he for the first six months called himself the clo not the CEO the chief himself the clo not the CEO the chief himself the clo not the CEO the chief learning officer he spent his entire learning officer he spent his entire learning officer he spent his entire time learning the team learning the time learning the team learning the time learning the team learning the organization and then learning about organization and then learning about organization and then learning about himself in this role and so uh and and himself in this role and so uh and and himself in this role and so uh and and again in the book I just give copious again in the book I just give copious again in the book I just give copious amounts of questions that you can ask to amounts of questions that you can ask to amounts of questions that you can ask to different kinds of people teers people different kinds of people teers people different kinds of people teers people who may be subordinates people who are who may be subordinates people who are who may be subordinates people who are above you in the organization customers above you in the organization customers above you in the organization customers how do we go about actually learning and how do we go about actually learning and how do we go about actually learning and to your point we do that by asking great to your point we do that by asking great to your point we do that by asking great questions yeah phenomenal uh speaking of questions yeah phenomenal uh speaking of questions yeah phenomenal uh speaking of asking great questions um Gavin what asking great questions um Gavin what asking great questions um Gavin what question have I not asked you about this question have I not asked you about this question have I not asked you about this book that I really needed to ask book that I really needed to ask book that I really needed to ask you what what's what's something that's you what what's what's something that's you what what's what's something that's worth spending a little bit more time on worth spending a little bit more time on worth spending a little bit more time on before we uh kind wrap this one up today before we uh kind wrap this one up today before we uh kind wrap this one up today yeah yeah yeah well you've asked great

yeah yeah yeah well you've asked great yeah yeah yeah well you've asked great questions I I'll tell you the my I mean questions I I'll tell you the my I mean questions I I'll tell you the my I mean I i' I've really had a great time I i' I've really had a great time I i' I've really had a great time putting the book together and the putting the book together and the putting the book together and the content together it's been something content together it's been something content together it's been something that's been kind of birthing in me for that's been kind of birthing in me for that's been kind of birthing in me for years and years so um but the one part years and years so um but the one part years and years so um but the one part part three of the book is dedicated to part three of the book is dedicated to part three of the book is dedicated to Leading people including yourself Leading people including yourself Leading people including yourself through leadership Transitions and I through leadership Transitions and I through leadership Transitions and I think it's a little bit of a um it's think it's a little bit of a um it's think it's a little bit of a um it's overlooked too often that a plan a overlooked too often that a plan a overlooked too often that a plan a change management for instance or a change management for instance or a change management for instance or a transition you know plan is necessary transition you know plan is necessary transition you know plan is necessary however it isn't the plan that trips however it isn't the plan that trips however it isn't the plan that trips people up it's the emotions along the people up it's the emotions along the people up it's the emotions along the way that the problems people are always way that the problems people are always way that the problems people are always the opportunity they're always the point the opportunity they're always the point the opportunity they're always the point but people are also always the problem but people are also always the problem but people are also always the problem right and so if we don't know how to right and so if we don't know how to right and so if we don't know how to lead people including ourselves through lead people including ourselves through lead people including ourselves through the transition we're going to have a the transition we're going to have a the transition we're going to have a failed transition and here's what I have failed transition and here's what I have failed transition and here's what I have found uh you are maybe the leader that's found uh you are maybe the leader that's found uh you are maybe the leader that's transitioning in or transitioning out transitioning in or transitioning out transitioning in or transitioning out however if you're on the team that's however if you're on the team that's however if you're on the team that's getting a new leader you need to getting a new leader you need to getting a new leader you need to understand the emotions that you are understand the emotions that you are understand the emotions that you are going to go through that the team is going to go through that the team is going to go through that the team is going to go through and so in part three going to go through and so in part three going to go through and so in part three of the book we kind of outlin this of the book we kind of outlin this of the book we kind of outlin this framework of the emotional Journey uh framework of the emotional Journey uh framework of the emotional Journey uh and these four emotional states that and these four emotional states that and these four emotional states that people go through during transition so people go through during transition so people go through during transition so uh and this can be by the way any kind uh and this can be by the way any kind uh and this can be by the way any kind of change this is even uh when when I of change this is even uh when when I of change this is even uh when when I developed this kind of framework I use developed this kind of framework I use developed this kind of framework I use it for every version of change and it for every version of change and it for every version of change and transition because that's really uh how transition because that's really uh how transition because that's really uh how it fits but the four states that you go it fits but the four states that you go it fits but the four states that you go through are give them very quickly through are give them very quickly through are give them very quickly everybody's in the state of comfort everybody's in the state of comfort everybody's in the state of comfort until the day the leader says Hey can

until the day the leader says Hey can until the day the leader says Hey can everybody sit down I've got something to everybody sit down I've got something to everybody sit down I've got something to share that moment everybody is tossed share that moment everybody is tossed share that moment everybody is tossed out of the state of comfort and they go out of the state of comfort and they go out of the state of comfort and they go into the state that I mentioned earlier into the state that I mentioned earlier into the state that I mentioned earlier the state of grief again there's a whole the state of grief again there's a whole the state of grief again there's a whole chapter on Grief and loss and how we chapter on Grief and loss and how we chapter on Grief and loss and how we have to grieve uh uh uh things so that have to grieve uh uh uh things so that have to grieve uh uh uh things so that we can bury it dead that way it doesn't we can bury it dead that way it doesn't we can bury it dead that way it doesn't haunt us the rest of our career or life haunt us the rest of our career or life haunt us the rest of our career or life but after we grieve that loss and we're but after we grieve that loss and we're but after we grieve that loss and we're kind of ready for what might be next the kind of ready for what might be next the kind of ready for what might be next the reality is the next state is the reality is the next state is the reality is the next state is the emotional state of confusion now emotional state of confusion now emotional state of confusion now confusion as a leader we always think confusion as a leader we always think confusion as a leader we always think think of it as being a bad thing I mean think of it as being a bad thing I mean think of it as being a bad thing I mean gosh if if we looked up leadership gosh if if we looked up leadership gosh if if we looked up leadership quotes on Clarity we would have quotes on Clarity we would have quotes on Clarity we would have thousands right there's not a leaders thousands right there's not a leaders thousands right there's not a leaders quoting how great confusion is however quoting how great confusion is however quoting how great confusion is however and this is so important in these and this is so important in these and this is so important in these transitions confusion isn't always a bad transitions confusion isn't always a bad transitions confusion isn't always a bad thing now your team should not be thing now your team should not be thing now your team should not be confused about the mission or about the confused about the mission or about the confused about the mission or about the vision however how we're going to vision however how we're going to vision however how we're going to execute it the strategy that we're going execute it the strategy that we're going execute it the strategy that we're going to use today under you as the new leader to use today under you as the new leader to use today under you as the new leader under your tenure that is going to be a under your tenure that is going to be a under your tenure that is going to be a little confusing for a minute and that's little confusing for a minute and that's little confusing for a minute and that's okay confusion is actually proof that okay confusion is actually proof that okay confusion is actually proof that people are letting go of how they used people are letting go of how they used people are letting go of how they used to do it so the reason they're confused to do it so the reason they're confused to do it so the reason they're confused is because now they're beginning to is because now they're beginning to is because now they're beginning to think about a different way of execution think about a different way of execution think about a different way of execution a different Ministry Model A different a different Ministry Model A different a different Ministry Model A different discipleship pathway right in the discipleship pathway right in the discipleship pathway right in the marketplace a different product mix marketplace a different product mix marketplace a different product mix different uh offering and so this different uh offering and so this different uh offering and so this confusion is actually where some of the confusion is actually where some of the confusion is actually where some of the most Innovative and creative ideas most Innovative and creative ideas most Innovative and creative ideas happen uh out of confusion we actually happen uh out of confusion we actually happen uh out of confusion we actually begin to accumulate some small begin to accumulate some small begin to accumulate some small incremental winds that lead to the final incremental winds that lead to the final incremental winds that lead to the final State the fourth state and that's State the fourth state and that's State the fourth state and that's acclamation acclamation is where we are

acclamation acclamation is where we are acclamation acclamation is where we are now now now ready to be led or to lead because we've ready to be led or to lead because we've ready to be led or to lead because we've been accepted into the position but not been accepted into the position but not been accepted into the position but not only just personally and relationally only just personally and relationally only just personally and relationally but the new systems the new rhythms the but the new systems the new rhythms the but the new systems the new rhythms the new routines uh really the new culture new routines uh really the new culture new routines uh really the new culture uh not the organizational culture uh not the organizational culture uh not the organizational culture necessarily but the staff culture our necessarily but the staff culture our necessarily but the staff culture our working norms and behaviors uh are now working norms and behaviors uh are now working norms and behaviors uh are now new and established we have acclimated new and established we have acclimated new and established we have acclimated to the new reality so those four to the new reality so those four to the new reality so those four emotional states are so critical and emotional states are so critical and emotional states are so critical and they're so often overlooked which sets they're so often overlooked which sets they're so often overlooked which sets leaders up to fail because again the leaders up to fail because again the leaders up to fail because again the steps of transition are important steps of transition are important steps of transition are important however if you ignore the people side of however if you ignore the people side of however if you ignore the people side of it you're ignoring the most critical it you're ignoring the most critical it you're ignoring the most critical part the most important part and the part the most important part and the part the most important part and the part that's going to eventually part that's going to eventually part that's going to eventually determine if it works or not I would determine if it works or not I would determine if it works or not I would imagine that as people go through those imagine that as people go through those imagine that as people go through those stages I mean the Comfort stage stages I mean the Comfort stage stages I mean the Comfort stage everybody's it's honeymoon right it's everybody's it's honeymoon right it's everybody's it's honeymoon right it's the honeymoon everything's happy we've the honeymoon everything's happy we've the honeymoon everything's happy we've filled the seat we needed to fill when filled the seat we needed to fill when filled the seat we needed to fill when you get into that grief and that conf you get into that grief and that conf you get into that grief and that conf the grief and the confusion stages those the grief and the confusion stages those the grief and the confusion stages those are probably the most likely seasons in are probably the most likely seasons in are probably the most likely seasons in which people start to seriously second which people start to seriously second which people start to seriously second guess number one whether they accepted guess number one whether they accepted guess number one whether they accepted the right position or number two we the right position or number two we the right position or number two we hired the right person they're on the hired the right person they're on the hired the right person they're on the team or the team lead either way yeah team or the team lead either way yeah team or the team lead either way yeah yeah exactly in the book yeah in fact in yeah exactly in the book yeah in fact in yeah exactly in the book yeah in fact in the book I compare this is probably the the book I compare this is probably the the book I compare this is probably the I mean it's a it's not a Christian book I mean it's a it's not a Christian book I mean it's a it's not a Christian book but I do use this Biblical reference in but I do use this Biblical reference in but I do use this Biblical reference in the book that this is the Israelites in the book that this is the Israelites in the book that this is the Israelites in the desert can we just go back to Egypt the desert can we just go back to Egypt the desert can we just go back to Egypt where at least we had meat and slav y I

where at least we had meat and slav y I where at least we had meat and slav y I mean it's exactly what people do because mean it's exactly what people do because mean it's exactly what people do because and you know this during a transition or and you know this during a transition or and you know this during a transition or change things always get worse before change things always get worse before change things always get worse before they get better so as they're getting they get better so as they're getting they get better so as they're getting worse everybody is feeling we made a worse everybody is feeling we made a worse everybody is feeling we made a mistake this isn't working can we just mistake this isn't working can we just mistake this isn't working can we just go back to the way things were and so as go back to the way things were and so as go back to the way things were and so as a leader it's so imperative we a leader it's so imperative we a leader it's so imperative we understand that's going to happen it's understand that's going to happen it's understand that's going to happen it's natural it's not abnormal and it's okay natural it's not abnormal and it's okay natural it's not abnormal and it's okay Gavin as we're moving through these Gavin as we're moving through these Gavin as we're moving through these different stages and I'm I'm sure that different stages and I'm I'm sure that different stages and I'm I'm sure that you you you get into to this to some you you you get into to this to some you you you get into to this to some degree in the book if we're in that degree in the book if we're in that degree in the book if we're in that grief stage or we're in that confusion grief stage or we're in that confusion grief stage or we're in that confusion stage are stage are stage are there mile markers or some sort of there mile markers or some sort of there mile markers or some sort of indicators that would help me see indicators that would help me see indicators that would help me see whether or not I'm actually stuck in the whether or not I'm actually stuck in the whether or not I'm actually stuck in the middle of it or I'm actually moving middle of it or I'm actually moving middle of it or I'm actually moving through it because if I'm stuck in grief through it because if I'm stuck in grief through it because if I'm stuck in grief and I can't get out of grief I need to and I can't get out of grief I need to and I can't get out of grief I need to know what steps I need to take to get know what steps I need to take to get know what steps I need to take to get out of it if we're stuck in this out of it if we're stuck in this out of it if we're stuck in this confusion stage what are the things that confusion stage what are the things that confusion stage what are the things that can give me at least some hope that can give me at least some hope that can give me at least some hope that maybe we're eventually moving out of maybe we're eventually moving out of maybe we're eventually moving out of that yeah that's a good question that yeah that's a good question that yeah that's a good question everybody goes through the process a everybody goes through the process a everybody goes through the process a little bit differently in on a timeline little bit differently in on a timeline little bit differently in on a timeline uh and by the way not everybody makes it uh and by the way not everybody makes it uh and by the way not everybody makes it through the process of a transition it's through the process of a transition it's through the process of a transition it's just the reality some people just don't just the reality some people just don't just the reality some people just don't make it through and that's okay because make it through and that's okay because make it through and that's okay because if they're not going to be successful if they're not going to be successful if they're not going to be successful with you as the leader the worst thing with you as the leader the worst thing with you as the leader the worst thing we can do is keep them and rob their we can do is keep them and rob their we can do is keep them and rob their future right so it's not a it's not the future right so it's not a it's not the future right so it's not a it's not the worst thing that people can't make it worst thing that people can't make it worst thing that people can't make it sometimes it's a good thing for them so sometimes it's a good thing for them so sometimes it's a good thing for them so some of those mile markers are um inred some of those mile markers are um inred some of those mile markers are um inred grief for instance the number one mile

grief for instance the number one mile grief for instance the number one mile marker is someone acknowledging that marker is someone acknowledging that marker is someone acknowledging that it's grief not irritation and it's grief not irritation and it's grief not irritation and frustration the number one thing that frustration the number one thing that frustration the number one thing that keeps people trapped in the grief state keeps people trapped in the grief state keeps people trapped in the grief state is not acknowledging that it's grief is not acknowledging that it's grief is not acknowledging that it's grief they're they they think they're they're they they think they're they're they they think they're resisting you they think they're they resisting you they think they're they resisting you they think they're they don't even know what they're resisting don't even know what they're resisting don't even know what they're resisting they just feel resistant as a leader for they just feel resistant as a leader for they just feel resistant as a leader for us to step in and help them name it and us to step in and help them name it and us to step in and help them name it and the re the way that we help them name it the re the way that we help them name it the re the way that we help them name it again I talk a lot about this in the again I talk a lot about this in the again I talk a lot about this in the book is by asking the question what do book is by asking the question what do book is by asking the question what do you feel like you have lost that one you feel like you have lost that one you feel like you have lost that one question question question kind of illuminates what the real kind of illuminates what the real kind of illuminates what the real problem is so in fact I got to a point problem is so in fact I got to a point problem is so in fact I got to a point now in my leadership Journey the last now in my leadership Journey the last now in my leadership Journey the last six seven years where whenever I'm six seven years where whenever I'm six seven years where whenever I'm involved in helping make a change one of involved in helping make a change one of involved in helping make a change one of the first questions I ask is who is the first questions I ask is who is the first questions I ask is who is going to lose something and what are going to lose something and what are going to lose something and what are they losing who is losing what if we can they losing who is losing what if we can they losing who is losing what if we can ask that question uh preemptively we can ask that question uh preemptively we can ask that question uh preemptively we can help lead people through so a milestone help lead people through so a milestone help lead people through so a milestone is can you name it this is why you know is can you name it this is why you know is can you name it this is why you know when you go to a counselor they're when you go to a counselor they're when you go to a counselor they're trying to get you to name what you're trying to get you to name what you're trying to get you to name what you're feeling because you can't fix it if you feeling because you can't fix it if you feeling because you can't fix it if you can't name it so I think a huge mile can't name it so I think a huge mile can't name it so I think a huge mile marker is calling it what it is and then marker is calling it what it is and then marker is calling it what it is and then processing it with someone so the the processing it with someone so the the processing it with someone so the the term I give for the the the job of a term I give for the the the job of a term I give for the the the job of a leader during the state of grief is to leader during the state of grief is to leader during the state of grief is to process with people to help them walk process with people to help them walk process with people to help them walk through it so a Mal marker or missing a through it so a Mal marker or missing a through it so a Mal marker or missing a m marker would be are they naming it and m marker would be are they naming it and m marker would be are they naming it and are they willing to actually grieve it are they willing to actually grieve it are they willing to actually grieve it are they willing to call it a loss and are they willing to call it a loss and are they willing to call it a loss and are they willing to see it as such and are they willing to see it as such and are they willing to see it as such and move through it in confusion it's a move through it in confusion it's a move through it in confusion it's a little different right in the state of little different right in the state of little different right in the state of confusion a mile marker is innovation confusion a mile marker is innovation confusion a mile marker is innovation are we beginning to think differently

are we beginning to think differently are we beginning to think differently are we beginning to suggest Alternatives are we beginning to suggest Alternatives are we beginning to suggest Alternatives here's a really big one when people stop here's a really big one when people stop here's a really big one when people stop saying well that's not how we do it saying well that's not how we do it saying well that's not how we do it around here that's a mile marker that around here that's a mile marker that around here that's a mile marker that we're moving away from the old thinking we're moving away from the old thinking we're moving away from the old thinking the old way of doing things again the the old way of doing things again the the old way of doing things again the better mile markers though are these better mile markers though are these better mile markers though are these incremental wins and so we're often as a incremental wins and so we're often as a incremental wins and so we're often as a leader looking for the big win that'll leader looking for the big win that'll leader looking for the big win that'll set the table that never really works set the table that never really works set the table that never really works what we really need is incremental winds what we really need is incremental winds what we really need is incremental winds because very small winds accumulate and because very small winds accumulate and because very small winds accumulate and these incremental winds as they these incremental winds as they these incremental winds as they accumulate end up really moving people accumulate end up really moving people accumulate end up really moving people out of confusion into acclamation so out of confusion into acclamation so out of confusion into acclamation so every time we have a small win during every time we have a small win during every time we have a small win during these transitional moments we celebrate these transitional moments we celebrate these transitional moments we celebrate them like we won the lottery right them like we won the lottery right them like we won the lottery right because it's kind of moving people and because it's kind of moving people and because it's kind of moving people and it's painting a picture of where we're it's painting a picture of where we're it's painting a picture of where we're heading as a team as a department you heading as a team as a department you heading as a team as a department you know as a church as an organization so know as a church as an organization so know as a church as an organization so those are really important mile markers those are really important mile markers those are really important mile markers as well that we can and again if we're as well that we can and again if we're as well that we can and again if we're not having them then obviously we're not not having them then obviously we're not not having them then obviously we're not leading well through that state but if leading well through that state but if leading well through that state but if we're beginning to have some incremental we're beginning to have some incremental we're beginning to have some incremental wins then it's proof that we're moving wins then it's proof that we're moving wins then it's proof that we're moving along the journey like a race like there along the journey like a race like there along the journey like a race like there are mile markers on the race yeah that are mile markers on the race yeah that are mile markers on the race yeah that is fantastic I I really really is fantastic I I really really is fantastic I I really really appreciate your Insight on that and uh appreciate your Insight on that and uh appreciate your Insight on that and uh I'm confident that this book is going to I'm confident that this book is going to I'm confident that this book is going to really help a lot of people uh who have really help a lot of people uh who have really help a lot of people uh who have either recently stepped into a either recently stepped into a either recently stepped into a leadership role a new leadership role or leadership role a new leadership role or leadership role a new leadership role or really U man maybe we could do some really U man maybe we could do some really U man maybe we could do some preemptive striking uh by getting this preemptive striking uh by getting this preemptive striking uh by getting this book into the hands of people who are book into the hands of people who are book into the hands of people who are about to step into something so that about to step into something so that about to step into something so that they don't step into it um or honestly

they don't step into it um or honestly they don't step into it um or honestly if you're on a team that is going to get if you're on a team that is going to get if you're on a team that is going to get a new leader it's so helpful to know a new leader it's so helpful to know a new leader it's so helpful to know what you're going to experience and to what you're going to experience and to what you're going to experience and to even help lead up with that individual even help lead up with that individual even help lead up with that individual as they're leading through the as they're leading through the as they're leading through the transition um I have a companion guide transition um I have a companion guide transition um I have a companion guide for HR leaders because again you can for HR leaders because again you can for HR leaders because again you can imagine you know I I in in wock city in imagine you know I I in in wock city in imagine you know I I in in wock city in North Point we were a part of a bigger North Point we were a part of a bigger North Point we were a part of a bigger Church obviously but you know this the Church obviously but you know this the Church obviously but you know this the poort HR people are stuck in the middle poort HR people are stuck in the middle poort HR people are stuck in the middle of all of these conversations they' got of all of these conversations they' got of all of these conversations they' got the new leader coming to them frustrated the new leader coming to them frustrated the new leader coming to them frustrated they got the entire team coming to them they got the entire team coming to them they got the entire team coming to them frustrated so how do we even help these frustrated so how do we even help these frustrated so how do we even help these new leaders and the new teams that new leaders and the new teams that new leaders and the new teams that they've inherited work the kind of they've inherited work the kind of they've inherited work the kind of through this process so I don't want to through this process so I don't want to through this process so I don't want to say the books for every leader and every say the books for every leader and every say the books for every leader and every person but in some realities it's very person but in some realities it's very person but in some realities it's very helpful for anyone who's going to or is helpful for anyone who's going to or is helpful for anyone who's going to or is experiencing a leadership change well experiencing a leadership change well experiencing a leadership change well without a doubt reading a book like this without a doubt reading a book like this without a doubt reading a book like this when there is transition going on in when there is transition going on in when there is transition going on in your organization it can't hurt to know your organization it can't hurt to know your organization it can't hurt to know what the Common Thread is in these types what the Common Thread is in these types what the Common Thread is in these types of transition so um really really of transition so um really really of transition so um really really excited for you Gavin is this the first excited for you Gavin is this the first excited for you Gavin is this the first book that you have written and published book that you have written and published book that you have written and published yeah sure is I um yeah it's the first yeah sure is I um yeah it's the first yeah sure is I um yeah it's the first one so I'm excited about it all right one so I'm excited about it all right one so I'm excited about it all right well we're we're excited excited for you well we're we're excited excited for you well we're we're excited excited for you no come on it will probably not be the no come on it will probably not be the no come on it will probably not be the last one I'm sure it's going to be the last one I'm sure it's going to be the last one I'm sure it's going to be the first of of of many to come and we're first of of of many to come and we're first of of of many to come and we're really really privileged that uh you really really privileged that uh you really really privileged that uh you hung out with us uh and our audience hung out with us uh and our audience hung out with us uh and our audience today to share a little bit about the today to share a little bit about the today to share a little bit about the book uh at the time that this podcast is book uh at the time that this podcast is book uh at the time that this podcast is out this book is fresh and ready to be out this book is fresh and ready to be out this book is fresh and ready to be purchased tell people where they can purchased tell people where they can purchased tell people where they can where they can find it yeah you can get where they can find it yeah you can get where they can find it yeah you can get it anywhere you find your books Amazon

it anywhere you find your books Amazon it anywhere you find your books Amazon Barnes & Noble all the online retailers Barnes & Noble all the online retailers Barnes & Noble all the online retailers uh and lots of uh uh physical retailers uh and lots of uh uh physical retailers uh and lots of uh uh physical retailers as well so okay great and your website as well so okay great and your website as well so okay great and your website is Gavin adams.com I have that correct y is Gavin adams.com I have that correct y is Gavin adams.com I have that correct y andom you've mentioned several uh andom you've mentioned several uh andom you've mentioned several uh companion guides uh we're I'm I'm gonna companion guides uh we're I'm I'm gonna companion guides uh we're I'm I'm gonna expect that those are going to be expect that those are going to be expect that those are going to be relatively easy to find when we come to relatively easy to find when we come to relatively easy to find when we come to the website and I'm going to I'm going the website and I'm going to I'm going the website and I'm going to I'm going to share this with our audience I'm to share this with our audience I'm to share this with our audience I'm going to invite them to say if there's a going to invite them to say if there's a going to invite them to say if there's a companion guide that Gavin has hasn't companion guide that Gavin has hasn't companion guide that Gavin has hasn't yet created that he needs to send him a yet created that he needs to send him a yet created that he needs to send him a message and say hey you've missed message and say hey you've missed message and say hey you've missed something here because I know that your something here because I know that your something here because I know that your goal is to be as comprehensive as you goal is to be as comprehensive as you goal is to be as comprehensive as you possibly can again really really possibly can again really really possibly can again really really appreciate you any any parting shots for appreciate you any any parting shots for appreciate you any any parting shots for our audience before we wrap this one up our audience before we wrap this one up our audience before we wrap this one up today no I just I I I have such a heart today no I just I I I have such a heart today no I just I I I have such a heart for the local church and so for all of for the local church and so for all of for the local church and so for all of you who are working in it man I am so you who are working in it man I am so you who are working in it man I am so grateful for the effort and the time grateful for the effort and the time grateful for the effort and the time you're putting in I'm so grateful for um you're putting in I'm so grateful for um you're putting in I'm so grateful for um just the challenges that you face every just the challenges that you face every just the challenges that you face every day and listen I've I'm in it with you I day and listen I've I'm in it with you I day and listen I've I'm in it with you I know that it's not getting easier it's know that it's not getting easier it's know that it's not getting easier it's just getting harder and harder to do just getting harder and harder to do just getting harder and harder to do this well but you know the good news is this well but you know the good news is this well but you know the good news is that God has promised that it's gonna uh that God has promised that it's gonna uh that God has promised that it's gonna uh uh that nothing's going to stop it and uh that nothing's going to stop it and uh that nothing's going to stop it and we get to be a part of ensuring that we get to be a part of ensuring that we get to be a part of ensuring that happens I think it's our goal to make happens I think it's our goal to make happens I think it's our goal to make sure that we don't do anything to stop sure that we don't do anything to stop sure that we don't do anything to stop it so uh I I'd love to help you lead as it so uh I I'd love to help you lead as it so uh I I'd love to help you lead as well as you can because I don't think well as you can because I don't think well as you can because I don't think there's any organization more important there's any organization more important there's any organization more important than the local than the local than the local church I agree with you 100% thanks so church I agree with you 100% thanks so church I agree with you 100% thanks so much Gavin for being on the show today much Gavin for being on the show today much Gavin for being on the show today and uh God bless you man we're just and uh God bless you man we're just and uh God bless you man we're just going to pray that uh you sell lots of going to pray that uh you sell lots of going to pray that uh you sell lots of books because we expect it to help lots books because we expect it to help lots books because we expect it to help lots and lots of people well I hope it helps and lots of people well I hope it helps and lots of people well I hope it helps lots of leaders that's the