The Volunteer Playbook for Churches | Nick Blevins

[Music] [Music] I was thinking about what you said that I was thinking about what you said that I was thinking about what you said that there's all these untapped potential in there's all these untapped potential in there's all these untapped potential in terms of gifts and skills that don't get terms of gifts and skills that don't get terms of gifts and skills that don't get used if you're not leveraging volunteers used if you're not leveraging volunteers used if you're not leveraging volunteers on that side of the house on that side of the house on that side of the house and we've seen an art Church where it's and we've seen an art Church where it's and we've seen an art Church where it's benefited other Ministries so for benefited other Ministries so for benefited other Ministries so for example with our church we're not the example with our church we're not the example with our church we're not the size where every Ministry can get the size where every Ministry can get the size where every Ministry can get the talent and skill of our comms and talent and skill of our comms and talent and skill of our comms and graphics and all of that but because of graphics and all of that but because of graphics and all of that but because of volunteers they kind of do well this is volunteers they kind of do well this is volunteers they kind of do well this is season three episode 38 of the missional season three episode 38 of the missional season three episode 38 of the missional marketing podcast my name is Bart Blair marketing podcast my name is Bart Blair marketing podcast my name is Bart Blair I'm the co-host of the show and it's my I'm the co-host of the show and it's my I'm the co-host of the show and it's my privilege to welcome you to another privilege to welcome you to another privilege to welcome you to another episode uh if you're new to the podcast episode uh if you're new to the podcast episode uh if you're new to the podcast we want to welcome you and let you know we want to welcome you and let you know we want to welcome you and let you know that the reason that we produce this that the reason that we produce this that the reason that we produce this podcast is to help your church grow by podcast is to help your church grow by podcast is to help your church grow by leveraging digital marketing and leveraging digital marketing and leveraging digital marketing and effective Communications we put out a effective Communications we put out a effective Communications we put out a new episode just about every Friday and new episode just about every Friday and new episode just about every Friday and just in case you haven't yet subscribed just in case you haven't yet subscribed just in case you haven't yet subscribed make sure that you do that whatever your make sure that you do that whatever your make sure that you do that whatever your favorite podcasting platform is if it's favorite podcasting platform is if it's favorite podcasting platform is 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the comments section on scroll down to the comments section on the episode and answer the question that the episode and answer the question that the episode and answer the question that we post there every week we post it on we post there every week we post it on we post there every week we post it on YouTube the podcast episodes onto YouTube the podcast episodes onto YouTube the podcast episodes onto YouTube and we post a question we pin it YouTube and we post a question we pin it YouTube and we post a question we pin it to the top because we would love to to the top because we would love to to the top because we would love to engage with you there just to get your engage with you there just to get your engage with you there just to get your feedback to see what's working for you feedback to see what's working for you feedback to see what's working for you what's not uh and uh just love to know what's not uh and uh just love to know what's not uh and uh just love to know how you're 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you're hearing or watching on the you're hearing or watching on the podcast uh today really excited about podcast uh today really excited about podcast uh today really excited about our guest uh I'm gonna just go straight our guest uh I'm gonna just go straight our guest uh I'm gonna just go straight out and call Our Guest a friend of mine out and call Our Guest a friend of mine out and call Our Guest a friend of mine his name is Nick Blevins Nick is a his name is Nick Blevins Nick is a his name is Nick Blevins Nick is a pastor at a church in the Baltimore pastor at a church in the Baltimore pastor at a church in the Baltimore Maryland area called Community Christian Maryland area called Community Christian Maryland area called Community Christian Church he oversees is the children's Church he oversees is the children's Church he oversees is the children's ministry the family ministry at that ministry the family ministry at that ministry the family ministry at that church he also happens to be over all of church he also happens to be over all of church he also happens to be over all of their digital strategies so Nick and I their digital strategies so Nick and I their digital strategies so Nick and I have an opportunity to work together uh have an opportunity to work together uh have an opportunity to work together uh as their Church uses Mission marketing as their Church uses Mission marketing as their Church uses Mission marketing services to reach more people and services to reach more people and services to reach more people and ultimately uh over the time Nick and I ultimately uh over the time Nick and I ultimately uh over the time Nick and I have just found that we have a lot in have just found that we have a lot in have just found that we have a lot in common and so I love hanging out with common and so I love hanging out with common and so I love hanging out with Nick on Zoom calls from time to time to Nick on Zoom calls from time to time to Nick on Zoom calls from time to time to talk about their strategies and one of talk about their strategies and one of talk about their strategies and one of our most recent calls he told me that he our most recent calls he told me that he our most recent calls he told me that he was releasing a book and I was like what was releasing a book and I was like what was releasing a book and I was like what is your book called and he said it's is your book called and he said it's is your book called and he said it's called the volunteer Playbook and I was called the volunteer Playbook and I was called the volunteer Playbook and I was like Nick we have to have you on our like Nick we have to have you on our like Nick we have to have you on our podcast so that we can talk about this podcast so that we can talk about this podcast so that we can talk about this if you've been listening to our podcast if you've been listening to our podcast if you've been listening to our podcast for any length of time you know that for any length of time you know that for any length of time you know that this is something that Jason and I have this is something that Jason and I have this is something that Jason and I have talked about a lot we've had other talked about a lot we've had other talked about a lot we've had other guests talk about it oh and by the way guests talk about it oh and by the way guests talk about it oh and by the way we have some upcoming episodes with some we have some upcoming episodes with some we have some upcoming episodes with some other guests in which we're going to be other guests in which we're going to be other guests in which we're going to be talking about it we would love to see talking about it we would love to see talking about it we would love to see you as a church Communications leader you as a church Communications leader you as a church Communications leader build more teams within your ministry build more teams within your ministry build more teams within your ministry and not be the one that owns everything and not be the one that owns everything and not be the one that owns everything all the time there's a lot of reason for all the time there's a lot of reason for all the time there's a lot of reason for that and we're going to get into some of that and we're going to get into some of that and we're going to get into some of that that in this week's episode again that that in this week's episode again that that in this week's episode again we appreciate you tuning in to the show we appreciate you tuning in to the show we appreciate you tuning in to the show we hope that you find the content we hope that you find the content we hope that you find the content helpful and we hope that you'll share it helpful and we hope that you'll share it helpful and we hope that you'll share it with somebody if you do so without any with somebody if you do so without any with somebody if you do so without any further delay here's the CEO of further delay here's the CEO of further delay here's the CEO of missional marketing I'm Jason Hamrock missional marketing I'm Jason Hamrock missional marketing I'm Jason Hamrock and our interview with Nick Blevins well

and our interview with Nick Blevins well and our interview with Nick Blevins well hey Nick welcome to the show how you hey Nick welcome to the show how you hey Nick welcome to the show how you doing man I'm doing well I feel like we doing man I'm doing well I feel like we doing man I'm doing well I feel like we finally have the weather here in finally have the weather here in finally have the weather here in Maryland that you get most of the year Maryland that you get most of the year Maryland that you get most of the year in Arizona so in Arizona so in Arizona so yeah we're on the cusp of being really yeah we're on the cusp of being really yeah we're on the cusp of being really really hot so yeah we don't get that really hot so yeah we don't get that really hot so yeah we don't get that which is fine with me but I like you which is fine with me but I like you which is fine with me but I like you know I like the warmer weather Summer's know I like the warmer weather Summer's know I like the warmer weather Summer's my favorite season so I'm doing well my favorite season so I'm doing well my favorite season so I'm doing well it's coming we're almost tell our it's coming we're almost tell our it's coming we're almost tell our audience where you're located I'm at a audience where you're located I'm at a audience where you're located I'm at a church north of Baltimore Maryland and church north of Baltimore Maryland and church north of Baltimore Maryland and we live a little bit even north of that we live a little bit even north of that we live a little bit even north of that at Community Christian Church around the at Community Christian Church around the at Community Christian Church around the next gen pastor and we helped start this next gen pastor and we helped start this next gen pastor and we helped start this church as a church plant 17 years ago church as a church plant 17 years ago church as a church plant 17 years ago really okay I I thought if I forgot really okay I I thought if I forgot really okay I I thought if I forgot about that that's that's awesome that's about that that's that's awesome that's about that that's that's awesome that's right I remember it's like I mean Bart right I remember it's like I mean Bart right I remember it's like I mean Bart understands this uh church planning like understands this uh church planning like understands this uh church planning like it's like I remember it like it was it's like I remember it like it was it's like I remember it like it was yesterday I remember making children's yesterday I remember making children's yesterday I remember making children's ministry check-in tags at 1am before the ministry check-in tags at 1am before the ministry check-in tags at 1am before the church launched in seven hours or church launched in seven hours or church launched in seven hours or whatever and I also it also feels like whatever and I also it also feels like whatever and I also it also feels like it was 40 years ago like I feel like it was 40 years ago like I feel like it was 40 years ago like I feel like I've aged much more than 17 years from I've aged much more than 17 years from I've aged much more than 17 years from the process the process the process oh man yeah but those are fun times oh man yeah but those are fun times oh man yeah but those are fun times right like great it's awesome yeah right like great it's awesome yeah right like great it's awesome yeah that's awesome well tell me Tell the that's awesome well tell me Tell the that's awesome well tell me Tell the audience a little bit more about your audience a little bit more about your audience a little bit more about your story how you ended up where you are story how you ended up where you are story how you ended up where you are today today today yeah so I grew up at today church ever yeah so I grew up at today church ever yeah so I grew up at today church ever since I was two never intended to work since I was two never intended to work since I was two never intended to work for a church it probably didn't help for a church it probably didn't help for a church it probably didn't help that I married the pastor's daughter you that I married the pastor's daughter you that I married the pastor's daughter you know like and then she didn't think she know like and then she didn't think she know like and then she didn't think she was marrying anybody that was gonna be a was marrying anybody that was gonna be a was marrying anybody that was gonna be a pastor either so like both of us did not pastor either so like both of us did not pastor either so like both of us did not think that was going to be our life but think that was going to be our life but think that was going to be our life but as I was graduating college working for as I was graduating college working for as I was graduating college working for Northrop Grumman mission systems as a Northrop Grumman mission systems as a Northrop Grumman mission systems as a systems administrator like I thought systems administrator like I thought systems administrator like I thought that was going to be my life doing that was going to be my life doing that was going to be my life doing project management or something like

project management or something like project management or something like that and I did love that but in the that and I did love that but in the that and I did love that but in the young adult years I just was had young adult years I just was had young adult years I just was had different way opportunities to lead at different way opportunities to lead at different way opportunities to lead at my home church and loved that really my home church and loved that really my home church and loved that really enjoyed it still didn't think I was enjoyed it still didn't think I was enjoyed it still didn't think I was going to work for a church in fact when going to work for a church in fact when going to work for a church in fact when this church that I'm a part of was we this church that I'm a part of was we this church that I'm a part of was we heard about it we had been praying about heard about it we had been praying about heard about it we had been praying about new church plants in our area we felt new church plants in our area we felt new church plants in our area we felt like we needed more new churches who like we needed more new churches who like we needed more new churches who would reach people who were far from God would reach people who were far from God would reach people who were far from God and so when we heard about this church and so when we heard about this church and so when we heard about this church we thought maybe this is the answer of we thought maybe this is the answer of we thought maybe this is the answer of prayer let's check it out and it was prayer let's check it out and it was prayer let's check it out and it was like we went to the information meeting like we went to the information meeting like we went to the information meeting it was like oh my gosh this is what it was like oh my gosh this is what it was like oh my gosh this is what we've prayed for for a year and a half we've prayed for for a year and a half we've prayed for for a year and a half and they needed a kids Pastor part-time and they needed a kids Pastor part-time and they needed a kids Pastor part-time I thought I might be able to do that you I thought I might be able to do that you I thought I might be able to do that you know I've mostly done youth ministry know I've mostly done youth ministry know I've mostly done youth ministry stuff and yeah and my at the time my stuff and yeah and my at the time my stuff and yeah and my at the time my youth pastor had become a pastor in the youth pastor had become a pastor in the youth pastor had become a pastor in the area and asked me about being his youth area and asked me about being his youth area and asked me about being his youth pastor so that was the first time that I pastor so that was the first time that I pastor so that was the first time that I ever thought about that and um and I was ever thought about that and um and I was ever thought about that and um and I was very intrigued by it the only exception very intrigued by it the only exception very intrigued by it the only exception though was like the church he was at was though was like the church he was at was though was like the church he was at was a healthier but still somewhat a healthier but still somewhat a healthier but still somewhat traditional Church kind of like what I traditional Church kind of like what I traditional Church kind of like what I come from and and it really was looking come from and and it really was looking come from and and it really was looking to be a part of something that was maybe to be a part of something that was maybe to be a part of something that was maybe different you know but that was the different you know but that was the different you know but that was the first time I had that idea that maybe I first time I had that idea that maybe I first time I had that idea that maybe I would like working for a church and now would like working for a church and now would like working for a church and now I look back you know and think oh my I look back you know and think oh my I look back you know and think oh my gosh I can't believe I would have done gosh I can't believe I would have done gosh I can't believe I would have done anything else like it's been amazing anything else like it's been amazing anything else like it's been amazing yeah how God's uh you know his plan for yeah how God's uh you know his plan for yeah how God's uh you know his plan for your life really does play out when you your life really does play out when you your life really does play out when you just you know you're obedient you say just you know you're obedient you say just you know you're obedient you say yes yep it's one of those few times yes yep it's one of those few times yes yep it's one of those few times where I feel like yep I do think God was where I feel like yep I do think God was where I feel like yep I do think God was calling us to this which is really cool calling us to this which is really cool calling us to this which is really cool yeah so so you've have all these years yeah so so you've have all these years yeah so so you've have all these years of of working in the church and it of of working in the church and it of of working in the church and it brings to brings us to our uh the topic

brings to brings us to our uh the topic brings to brings us to our uh the topic of today what we want to talk about and of today what we want to talk about and of today what we want to talk about and that is you wrote a book that is you wrote a book that is you wrote a book and the title of the book is the and the title of the book is the and the title of the book is the volunteer playbook for churches and I volunteer playbook for churches and I volunteer playbook for churches and I gotta tell you uh listening to the book gotta tell you uh listening to the book gotta tell you uh listening to the book uh I'm I'm I was shaking my head going uh I'm I'm I was shaking my head going uh I'm I'm I was shaking my head going darn it I wish I had this book when I darn it I wish I had this book when I darn it I wish I had this book when I was on staff at my church because I was on staff at my church because I was on staff at my church because I worked at a church and I was in the worked at a church and I was in the worked at a church and I was in the communications right that's that's my communications right that's that's my communications right that's that's my background and and we didn't have a background and and we didn't have a background and and we didn't have a playbook for how you find you know playbook for how you find you know playbook for how you find you know recruit you know find them recruit them recruit you know find them recruit them recruit you know find them recruit them train them engage with them keep them train them engage with them keep them train them engage with them keep them volunteers it's just hey you know volunteers it's just hey you know volunteers it's just hey you know connect with these people because they connect with these people because they connect with these people because they want to volunteer and then you're like want to volunteer and then you're like want to volunteer and then you're like well okay well okay well okay and I failed at it because I didn't and I failed at it because I didn't and I failed at it because I didn't really have a Playbook so talk to us a really have a Playbook so talk to us a really have a Playbook so talk to us a little bit about you know why'd you little bit about you know why'd you little bit about you know why'd you write it and who do you think it's going write it and who do you think it's going write it and who do you think it's going to help and just kind of go into the to help and just kind of go into the to help and just kind of go into the details of this of this new book that details of this of this new book that details of this of this new book that you wrote yeah and it's it's like 10 you wrote yeah and it's it's like 10 you wrote yeah and it's it's like 10 years in the making you know I think years in the making you know I think years in the making you know I think good writers probably don't take 10 good writers probably don't take 10 good writers probably don't take 10 years to write a book but when you're years to write a book but when you're years to write a book but when you're not super disciplined like myself uh it not super disciplined like myself uh it not super disciplined like myself uh it took 10 years so in some ways it even took 10 years so in some ways it even took 10 years so in some ways it even changed probably a little bit in terms changed probably a little bit in terms changed probably a little bit in terms of like its goal or purpose or whatever of like its goal or purpose or whatever of like its goal or purpose or whatever originally it was kind of like you said originally it was kind of like you said originally it was kind of like you said I wish I'd had that Playbook you know I wish I'd had that Playbook you know I wish I'd had that Playbook you know when I started out most I feel like 90 when I started out most I feel like 90 when I started out most I feel like 90 of the book is stuff I've learned from of the book is stuff I've learned from of the book is stuff I've learned from other leaders right like very little of other leaders right like very little of other leaders right like very little of it is new from me but I liked I wanted it is new from me but I liked I wanted it is new from me but I liked I wanted to put it all in one resource so that to put it all in one resource so that to put it all in one resource so that someone like myself could use that to someone like myself could use that to someone like myself could use that to recruit and build and really the recruit and build and really the recruit and build and really the original idea was kind of you know original idea was kind of you know original idea was kind of you know volunteerism impact is impacted by so

volunteerism impact is impacted by so volunteerism impact is impacted by so many things in the church I mean many things in the church I mean many things in the church I mean hundreds of factors impact volunteers hundreds of factors impact volunteers hundreds of factors impact volunteers and whether positively or negatively and and whether positively or negatively and and whether positively or negatively and a lot of times we think it's just one a lot of times we think it's just one a lot of times we think it's just one thing like we just need one more thing like we just need one more thing like we just need one more announcement we just need one Ministry announcement we just need one Ministry announcement we just need one Ministry Fair Drive in the lobby or we just need Fair Drive in the lobby or we just need Fair Drive in the lobby or we just need whatever it is and and those things can whatever it is and and those things can whatever it is and and those things can be good but it's that's one thing among be good but it's that's one thing among be good but it's that's one thing among hundreds of factors and so the idea hundreds of factors and so the idea hundreds of factors and so the idea originally was how do we help how can I originally was how do we help how can I originally was how do we help how can I help church leaders build a healthy help church leaders build a healthy help church leaders build a healthy volunteer culture like from the ground volunteer culture like from the ground volunteer culture like from the ground up but over the years I've actually do I up but over the years I've actually do I up but over the years I've actually do I made a course first before it was ever a made a course first before it was ever a made a course first before it was ever a book so I got the experience like how book so I got the experience like how book so I got the experience like how people engage with the content how they people engage with the content how they people engage with the content how they applied it in their church and I learned applied it in their church and I learned applied it in their church and I learned I need to prioritize recruitment on the I need to prioritize recruitment on the I need to prioritize recruitment on the front end get that going and then front end get that going and then front end get that going and then they'll have some time to focus on the they'll have some time to focus on the they'll have some time to focus on the rest and so that's kind of what the book rest and so that's kind of what the book rest and so that's kind of what the book became is here's how to recruit you know became is here's how to recruit you know became is here's how to recruit you know build your team a little bit now we can build your team a little bit now we can build your team a little bit now we can go to work on the foundation now we can go to work on the foundation now we can go to work on the foundation now we can build a structure that you know will build a structure that you know will build a structure that you know will help your team Thrive and then at the help your team Thrive and then at the help your team Thrive and then at the end there's kind of like some bonus end there's kind of like some bonus end there's kind of like some bonus recruitment ideas it's kind of the recruitment ideas it's kind of the recruitment ideas it's kind of the things that probably people want to use things that probably people want to use things that probably people want to use most like the quick easy answers I save most like the quick easy answers I save most like the quick easy answers I save those for the end you know like let's those for the end you know like let's those for the end you know like let's build the good foundation first then build the good foundation first then build the good foundation first then those will be more effective those will be more effective those will be more effective so I might sorry I was just gonna say so I might sorry I was just gonna say so I might sorry I was just gonna say you know I feel like you're you're right you know I feel like you're you're right you know I feel like you're you're right people want to get to the how-to before people want to get to the how-to before people want to get to the how-to before they really get to the why and one of they really get to the why and one of they really get to the why and one of the things that you do unpack quite a the things that you do unpack quite a the things that you do unpack quite a bit in the in the book is the the bit in the in the book is the the bit in the in the book is the the concept of culture and values and those concept of culture and values and those concept of culture and values and those sorts of things and I think that a lot sorts of things and I think that a lot sorts of things and I think that a lot of church leaders Ministry leaders fail of church leaders Ministry leaders fail of church leaders Ministry leaders fail to realize that you're not just to realize that you're not just to realize that you're not just recruiting people or inviting people to recruiting people or inviting people to recruiting people or inviting people to do a certain job or a certain task but

do a certain job or a certain task but do a certain job or a certain task but you're inviting them into a team and you're inviting them into a team and you're inviting them into a team and into a culture and the more time and into a culture and the more time and into a culture and the more time and energy and effort that you can put into energy and effort that you can put into energy and effort that you can put into investing in the culture that you have investing in the culture that you have investing in the culture that you have in your volunteer teams the easier it is in your volunteer teams the easier it is in your volunteer teams the easier it is to actually get people to say yes to actually get people to say yes to actually get people to say yes because the people who are serving feel because the people who are serving feel because the people who are serving feel appreciated and they're growing in their appreciated and they're growing in their appreciated and they're growing in their faith and they feel like they're faith and they feel like they're faith and they feel like they're contributing to something that matters contributing to something that matters contributing to something that matters um why don't you speak into that just a um why don't you speak into that just a um why don't you speak into that just a little bit sure yeah and I feel like so little bit sure yeah and I feel like so little bit sure yeah and I feel like so that in some ways that was the core of that in some ways that was the core of that in some ways that was the core of the book in the beginning it was like the book in the beginning it was like the book in the beginning it was like let's get your mission established your let's get your mission established your let's get your mission established your vision your strategy your culture now vision your strategy your culture now vision your strategy your culture now let's talk about roles and the structure let's talk about roles and the structure let's talk about roles and the structure again like building it like if you're again like building it like if you're again like building it like if you're building a house from the ground up but building a house from the ground up but building a house from the ground up but I knew like that's kind of boring and I knew like that's kind of boring and I knew like that's kind of boring and also not urgent you know like nobody's also not urgent you know like nobody's also not urgent you know like nobody's like getting a book and thinking this is like getting a book and thinking this is like getting a book and thinking this is going to help me this week you know what going to help me this week you know what going to help me this week you know what I mean so I put it in there and here's I mean so I put it in there and here's I mean so I put it in there and here's what's funny guys I have no idea but what's funny guys I have no idea but what's funny guys I have no idea but it's a self-published book I do strongly it's a self-published book I do strongly it's a self-published book I do strongly believe that if I go on with like a believe that if I go on with like a believe that if I go on with like a traditional publisher they'd have cut traditional publisher they'd have cut traditional publisher they'd have cut that whole thing out you know they'd that whole thing out you know they'd that whole thing out you know they'd have been like you know but and part of have been like you know but and part of have been like you know but and part of me thought about that too but it's like me thought about that too but it's like me thought about that too but it's like is it a different book that's not that is it a different book that's not that is it a different book that's not that much so you know it's in there but what much so you know it's in there but what much so you know it's in there but what you said is true though culture you said is true though culture you said is true though culture especially is so important like if you especially is so important like if you especially is so important like if you start recruiting a bunch of people but start recruiting a bunch of people but start recruiting a bunch of people but the team isn't healthy well they're just the team isn't healthy well they're just the team isn't healthy well they're just not going to last long right they're not going to last long right they're not going to last long right they're going to come on or come off if you going to come on or come off if you going to come on or come off if you recruit a bunch of people and maybe it's recruit a bunch of people and maybe it's recruit a bunch of people and maybe it's like healthy but it's like kind of like healthy but it's like kind of like healthy but it's like kind of disorganized or it's not clear what the disorganized or it's not clear what the disorganized or it's not clear what the purpose is again people just won't stay purpose is again people just won't stay purpose is again people just won't stay long and so culture is absolutely huge I long and so culture is absolutely huge I long and so culture is absolutely huge I say that it's not the most important of say that it's not the most important of say that it's not the most important of Mission Vision strategy and culture but Mission Vision strategy and culture but Mission Vision strategy and culture but it's the one you feel the most so like it's the one you feel the most so like it's the one you feel the most so like in some ways it almost is the most

in some ways it almost is the most in some ways it almost is the most important because like if I went to your important because like if I went to your important because like if I went to your church this Sunday in 15 minutes I would church this Sunday in 15 minutes I would church this Sunday in 15 minutes I would have a sense of the culture like is this have a sense of the culture like is this have a sense of the culture like is this fun is it Loose is it welcoming is it fun is it Loose is it welcoming is it fun is it Loose is it welcoming is it formal is it informal and like you formal is it informal and like you formal is it informal and like you wouldn't I would know anything about wouldn't I would know anything about wouldn't I would know anything about your Mission Vision or strategy but in your Mission Vision or strategy but in your Mission Vision or strategy but in 15 minutes I probably have a good sense 15 minutes I probably have a good sense 15 minutes I probably have a good sense of the culture and I feel like it's the of the culture and I feel like it's the of the culture and I feel like it's the same with volunteer culture so simple same with volunteer culture so simple same with volunteer culture so simple things like volunteers that wear the things like volunteers that wear the things like volunteers that wear the same shirts or a volunteer room where same shirts or a volunteer room where same shirts or a volunteer room where they get snacks and drinks and candy and they get snacks and drinks and candy and they get snacks and drinks and candy and can rest or can rest or can rest or um huddles like where volunteers get um huddles like where volunteers get um huddles like where volunteers get together for 30 minutes before the together for 30 minutes before the together for 30 minutes before the service things like that can help service things like that can help service things like that can help establish like that healthy volunteer establish like that healthy volunteer establish like that healthy volunteer culture where people get in and they're culture where people get in and they're culture where people get in and they're like oh this is great like I can't like oh this is great like I can't like oh this is great like I can't believe that you know that wasn't part believe that you know that wasn't part believe that you know that wasn't part of this before I mean in the you know of this before I mean in the you know of this before I mean in the you know the perfect scenario is where it's so the perfect scenario is where it's so the perfect scenario is where it's so good people talk about it you know what good people talk about it you know what good people talk about it you know what I mean like outside you know to other I mean like outside you know to other I mean like outside you know to other people that don't serve yet people that don't serve yet people that don't serve yet um and then it just helps build but if um and then it just helps build but if um and then it just helps build but if it's bad it's all bad you know what I it's bad it's all bad you know what I it's bad it's all bad you know what I mean like if your culture is not good mean like if your culture is not good mean like if your culture is not good even the good things don't seem good even the good things don't seem good even the good things don't seem good right like that could it could be right like that could it could be right like that could it could be working fine but the culture makes it working fine but the culture makes it working fine but the culture makes it feel worse feel worse feel worse so if I don't if I if I'm serving in a so if I don't if I if I'm serving in a so if I don't if I if I'm serving in a church and church and church and um um um there there is an unhealthy culture what there there is an unhealthy culture what there there is an unhealthy culture what do I do about that good question well do I do about that good question well do I do about that good question well and there's probably levels to that like and there's probably levels to that like and there's probably levels to that like if it's the church culture is unhealthy if it's the church culture is unhealthy if it's the church culture is unhealthy not just your ministry volunteer and if not just your ministry volunteer and if not just your ministry volunteer and if the church culture is unhealthy I do the church culture is unhealthy I do the church culture is unhealthy I do think it starts at the top like how do think it starts at the top like how do think it starts at the top like how do we help the church establish a new we help the church establish a new we help the church establish a new healthy culture but what I think the healthy culture but what I think the healthy culture but what I think the actually the plan is I would say that actually the plan is I would say that actually the plan is I would say that plan there's a lot of things you can do

plan there's a lot of things you can do plan there's a lot of things you can do but what I would do would be the same but what I would do would be the same but what I would do would be the same the only difference is am I doing it the only difference is am I doing it the only difference is am I doing it church-wide or just within my Ministry church-wide or just within my Ministry church-wide or just within my Ministry within my volunteers but I love the idea within my volunteers but I love the idea within my volunteers but I love the idea of establishing like culture statements of establishing like culture statements of establishing like culture statements or values as long as they're not like or values as long as they're not like or values as long as they're not like um boring or as as Pat lincione would um boring or as as Pat lincione would um boring or as as Pat lincione would say permission to play like don't use say permission to play like don't use say permission to play like don't use value like that people make hate that I value like that people make hate that I value like that people make hate that I say this but like as a church don't say say this but like as a church don't say say this but like as a church don't say we value the Bible and Jesus and prayer we value the Bible and Jesus and prayer we value the Bible and Jesus and prayer and evangelism like Patrick lancione and evangelism like Patrick lancione and evangelism like Patrick lancione would say those are permission to play would say those are permission to play would say those are permission to play You're a church you should value those You're a church you should value those You're a church you should value those things things things um I like values that like you know I um I like values that like you know I um I like values that like you know I worked with a church where one of them worked with a church where one of them worked with a church where one of them was we give Ministry away meaning we was we give Ministry away meaning we was we give Ministry away meaning we Empower others to lead and decide and Empower others to lead and decide and Empower others to lead and decide and and give Ministry away or one of our and give Ministry away or one of our and give Ministry away or one of our Church's values is we're not uh we're Church's values is we're not uh we're Church's values is we're not uh we're not just consumers we're contributors so not just consumers we're contributors so not just consumers we're contributors so we want to have this value that we don't we want to have this value that we don't we want to have this value that we don't just come here to get we also come here just come here to get we also come here just come here to get we also come here to give another one of ours is we own to give another one of ours is we own to give another one of ours is we own our own faith Journey again just trying our own faith Journey again just trying our own faith Journey again just trying to get people to get that so I think if to get people to get that so I think if to get people to get that so I think if you can come up like Elevation Church is you can come up like Elevation Church is you can come up like Elevation Church is a church that has the code I'm working a church that has the code I'm working a church that has the code I'm working with the church now they have something with the church now they have something with the church now they have something they call house rules and you know you they call house rules and you know you they call house rules and you know you like seven of those and and you can you like seven of those and and you can you like seven of those and and you can you know come up with whatever you want but know come up with whatever you want but know come up with whatever you want but I like that church that has the house I like that church that has the house I like that church that has the house rules for example you can really sense rules for example you can really sense rules for example you can really sense it like I've read them before I ever got it like I've read them before I ever got it like I've read them before I ever got there they have them on the wall you there they have them on the wall you there they have them on the wall you know in the in the one building at the know in the in the one building at the know in the in the one building at the one campus that I was at and man the one campus that I was at and man the one campus that I was at and man the pastor exhibits it completely the staff pastor exhibits it completely the staff pastor exhibits it completely the staff um and you can just feel it and it's um and you can just feel it and it's um and you can just feel it and it's like and I think like and I think like and I think cultures ultimately the people right so cultures ultimately the people right so cultures ultimately the people right so like I mean it's going to happen whether

like I mean it's going to happen whether like I mean it's going to happen whether you're intentional or not it's just how you're intentional or not it's just how you're intentional or not it's just how people how we do things here it's like people how we do things here it's like people how we do things here it's like kind of how I say it but you can if you kind of how I say it but you can if you kind of how I say it but you can if you can establish some some statements some can establish some some statements some can establish some some statements some values like they did repeat them over values like they did repeat them over values like they did repeat them over and over again then you can kind of and over again then you can kind of and over again then you can kind of create the one you want but the other create the one you want but the other create the one you want but the other part of the equation that's much more part of the equation that's much more part of the equation that's much more complicated is you have to get rid of complicated is you have to get rid of complicated is you have to get rid of unhealthy parts of the culture which unhealthy parts of the culture which unhealthy parts of the culture which sometimes means people sometimes means people sometimes means people firing volunteers staff which is not fun firing volunteers staff which is not fun firing volunteers staff which is not fun nobody wants to talk about that but like nobody wants to talk about that but like nobody wants to talk about that but like a healthy culture can't happen if a healthy culture can't happen if a healthy culture can't happen if there's huge toxic portions of it you there's huge toxic portions of it you there's huge toxic portions of it you know that that we haven't addressed but know that that we haven't addressed but know that that we haven't addressed but I think most churches fortunately aren't I think most churches fortunately aren't I think most churches fortunately aren't there they're in the we just haven't there they're in the we just haven't there they're in the we just haven't been clear about it so it's kind of been clear about it so it's kind of been clear about it so it's kind of become whatever it is so if you can get become whatever it is so if you can get become whatever it is so if you can get clear about it you know establish some clear about it you know establish some clear about it you know establish some phrases you know and repeat them and use phrases you know and repeat them and use phrases you know and repeat them and use them regularly celebrate when it happens them regularly celebrate when it happens them regularly celebrate when it happens you'll start to create the culture you you'll start to create the culture you you'll start to create the culture you want yeah yeah and I think that's so want yeah yeah and I think that's so want yeah yeah and I think that's so true especially when you recognize that true especially when you recognize that true especially when you recognize that there are certain there are certain there are certain Ministries and people in those Ministries and people in those Ministries and people in those Ministries uh the staff people who are Ministries uh the staff people who are Ministries uh the staff people who are the the Temptation is I'll just do it the the Temptation is I'll just do it the the Temptation is I'll just do it myself and I'm just going to program myself and I'm just going to program myself and I'm just going to program program program program and I was always fighting back going no and I was always fighting back going no and I was always fighting back going no you you can't do that you gotta you you you can't do that you gotta you you you can't do that you gotta you gotta hand it off and expect it to be gotta hand it off and expect it to be gotta hand it off and expect it to be maybe not as professional as you would maybe not as professional as you would maybe not as professional as you would like it to be but it's way more like it to be but it's way more like it to be but it's way more authentic yeah and in some Sometimes authentic yeah and in some Sometimes authentic yeah and in some Sometimes some people just have a hard time some people just have a hard time some people just have a hard time grasping it because I think they think grasping it because I think they think grasping it because I think they think it's like well it's job security I gotta it's like well it's job security I gotta it's like well it's job security I gotta have a really powerful have a really powerful have a really powerful program it's like yeah I don't know program it's like yeah I don't know program it's like yeah I don't know about that so yeah otherwise I mean

about that so yeah otherwise I mean about that so yeah otherwise I mean you're going against the county what you're going against the county what you're going against the county what you're seeing in the book yeah we said I you're seeing in the book yeah we said I you're seeing in the book yeah we said I mean you're speaking to like something mean you're speaking to like something mean you're speaking to like something that our staff has said and I don't that our staff has said and I don't that our staff has said and I don't remember it's our executive Pastor or remember it's our executive Pastor or remember it's our executive Pastor or our lead Pastor that first phrased this our lead Pastor that first phrased this our lead Pastor that first phrased this but it's really good his idea was like but it's really good his idea was like but it's really good his idea was like you're leading volunteers and you're you're leading volunteers and you're you're leading volunteers and you're giving Authority away tasks giving Authority away tasks giving Authority away tasks responsibilities you have to be okay responsibilities you have to be okay responsibilities you have to be okay that it's going to be 80 at first and if that it's going to be 80 at first and if that it's going to be 80 at first and if you can just get 80 give it away and the you can just get 80 give it away and the you can just get 80 give it away and the 80 is hard for a lot of us and 80 is hard for a lot of us and 80 is hard for a lot of us and especially people listen to this podcast especially people listen to this podcast especially people listen to this podcast a lot of people listen to this podcast a lot of people listen to this podcast a lot of people listen to this podcast create things they have you know what I create things they have you know what I create things they have you know what I mean and so there's like this oh 80 I mean and so there's like this oh 80 I mean and so there's like this oh 80 I mean 80 feels like a lot worse than what mean 80 feels like a lot worse than what mean 80 feels like a lot worse than what it sounds even when we say it out loud it sounds even when we say it out loud it sounds even when we say it out loud and I've witnessed it you know we've had and I've witnessed it you know we've had and I've witnessed it you know we've had our large group on our kids stage be 80 our large group on our kids stage be 80 our large group on our kids stage be 80 and it's like this feels like and it's like this feels like and it's like this feels like 40. you know what I mean and then but 40. you know what I mean and then but 40. you know what I mean and then but then over time you just gotta remember then over time you just gotta remember then over time you just gotta remember we were 40 or whatever it was you know we were 40 or whatever it was you know we were 40 or whatever it was you know so you just gotta get over time they so you just gotta get over time they so you just gotta get over time they they learn they develop and and now and they learn they develop and and now and they learn they develop and and now and my thing is is I feel like a lot of my thing is is I feel like a lot of my thing is is I feel like a lot of times it can become a hundred and twenty times it can become a hundred and twenty times it can become a hundred and twenty percent like it can get better than it percent like it can get better than it percent like it can get better than it was when we did it is but you just gotta was when we did it is but you just gotta was when we did it is but you just gotta be patient if you want to start and I do be patient if you want to start and I do be patient if you want to start and I do think there's some kind of floor so I think there's some kind of floor so I think there's some kind of floor so I don't have 80 is the right number like don't have 80 is the right number like don't have 80 is the right number like yeah don't give to somebody's not gifted yeah don't give to somebody's not gifted yeah don't give to somebody's not gifted at it at all but you know if they're at it at all but you know if they're at it at all but you know if they're just like we were and they just need to just like we were and they just need to just like we were and they just need to grow hand that thing off to a volunteer grow hand that thing off to a volunteer grow hand that thing off to a volunteer help them develop and you know it'll get help them develop and you know it'll get help them develop and you know it'll get back to 100 or more you just got to be back to 100 or more you just got to be back to 100 or more you just got to be okay with the 80 for a little while it's okay with the 80 for a little while it's okay with the 80 for a little while it's a tough one yeah I think I think you a tough one yeah I think I think you a tough one yeah I think I think you gotta assume you know if you look at gotta assume you know if you look at gotta assume you know if you look at just look at biblical principles about just look at biblical principles about just look at biblical principles about empowerment I don't think that the empowerment I don't think that the empowerment I don't think that the Apostle Paul was concerned about Timothy

Apostle Paul was concerned about Timothy Apostle Paul was concerned about Timothy only being 80 percent the pastor he was only being 80 percent the pastor he was only being 80 percent the pastor he was right sure like possible and Timothy is right sure like possible and Timothy is right sure like possible and Timothy is not yeah right good luck good luck not yeah right good luck good luck not yeah right good luck good luck Timothy yeah yeah so so I think you know Timothy yeah yeah so so I think you know Timothy yeah yeah so so I think you know there's I think there's a couple of of there's I think there's a couple of of there's I think there's a couple of of of things at play when when you have a of things at play when when you have a of things at play when when you have a strong culture of empowerment is that strong culture of empowerment is that strong culture of empowerment is that you also have to bring in a culture of you also have to bring in a culture of you also have to bring in a culture of improvement so people who who are being improvement so people who who are being improvement so people who who are being empowered to do something they're given empowered to do something they're given empowered to do something they're given the Reigns an opportunity to lead to the Reigns an opportunity to lead to the Reigns an opportunity to lead to exercise their gifts and their talents exercise their gifts and their talents exercise their gifts and their talents that's great but you also need to have a that's great but you also need to have a that's great but you also need to have a healthy culture of evaluation and a healthy culture of evaluation and a healthy culture of evaluation and a healthy culture of improvement and you healthy culture of improvement and you healthy culture of improvement and you know Jason and I have the opportunity to know Jason and I have the opportunity to know Jason and I have the opportunity to to sit alongside churches that are to sit alongside churches that are to sit alongside churches that are working to improve their Church working to improve their Church working to improve their Church Communications all the time and you know Communications all the time and you know Communications all the time and you know you don't improve if you don't evaluate you don't improve if you don't evaluate you don't improve if you don't evaluate and as Ministry leaders we know that one and as Ministry leaders we know that one and as Ministry leaders we know that one of the things that we're called to do is of the things that we're called to do is of the things that we're called to do is equip the Saints of the work for equip the Saints of the work for equip the Saints of the work for Ministry and that's not all just Ministry and that's not all just Ministry and that's not all just spiritual stuff in the space of church spiritual stuff in the space of church spiritual stuff in the space of church calms and creativity it is a matter of calms and creativity it is a matter of calms and creativity it is a matter of empowering people who have gifts and empowering people who have gifts and empowering people who have gifts and talents in the area of of copywriting of talents in the area of of copywriting of talents in the area of of copywriting of photography of videography of video photography of videography of video photography of videography of video editing of songwriting of you know editing of songwriting of you know editing of songwriting of you know social media content creation whatever social media content creation whatever social media content creation whatever the case might be there's there's so the case might be there's there's so the case might be there's there's so many different places uh you know Nick many different places uh you know Nick many different places uh you know Nick you and I were talking uh offline before you and I were talking uh offline before you and I were talking uh offline before we started recording and Jason you and I we started recording and Jason you and I we started recording and Jason you and I have had a handful of conversations have had a handful of conversations have had a handful of conversations about this with other podcast guests is about this with other podcast guests is about this with other podcast guests is that church Communications leaders that church Communications leaders that church Communications leaders simply should do a better job of

simply should do a better job of simply should do a better job of building teams of Volunteers in their building teams of Volunteers in their building teams of Volunteers in their Church to perform the work of the Church to perform the work of the Church to perform the work of the ministry and it shouldn't all fall on ministry and it shouldn't all fall on ministry and it shouldn't all fall on the shoulders and the pressure of that the shoulders and the pressure of that the shoulders and the pressure of that comms director but Nick you're right on comms director but Nick you're right on comms director but Nick you're right on the money the people that are listening the money the people that are listening the money the people that are listening to this podcast the people that we sit to this podcast the people that we sit to this podcast the people that we sit across Zoom calls from day in day out across Zoom calls from day in day out across Zoom calls from day in day out they're all really high Achievers they they're all really high Achievers they they're all really high Achievers they want to do things really really well want to do things really really well want to do things really really well with excellent it's and it's partly with excellent it's and it's partly with excellent it's and it's partly because of the way that God has wired because of the way that God has wired because of the way that God has wired them and part of it is because they want them and part of it is because they want them and part of it is because they want to serve their leaders well right and to serve their leaders well right and to serve their leaders well right and they feel like if if I don't deliver a they feel like if if I don't deliver a they feel like if if I don't deliver a hundred percent all the time I'm not hundred percent all the time I'm not hundred percent all the time I'm not serving my leader as well so I'll get serving my leader as well so I'll get serving my leader as well so I'll get off that side I'll get off that side off that side I'll get off that side off that side I'll get off that side that soapbox there yeah you're right it that soapbox there yeah you're right it that soapbox there yeah you're right it is it's a stressful way to live isn't it is it's a stressful way to live isn't it is it's a stressful way to live isn't it yeah for years is hard I'm putting you yeah for years is hard I'm putting you yeah for years is hard I'm putting you all on the spot out of 10 comms all on the spot out of 10 comms all on the spot out of 10 comms directors how many of them use directors how many of them use directors how many of them use volunteers well oh just guessing maybe volunteers well oh just guessing maybe volunteers well oh just guessing maybe one maybe one that's what I thought and one maybe one that's what I thought and one maybe one that's what I thought and part of that right yeah part of that's part of that right yeah part of that's part of that right yeah part of that's probably because unlike kids Ministries probably because unlike kids Ministries probably because unlike kids Ministries they always say kids ministry you have they always say kids ministry you have they always say kids ministry you have to be some level of a good leader to be some level of a good leader to be some level of a good leader because you can't be in every room like because you can't be in every room like because you can't be in every room like it's just impossible student Ministry it's just impossible student Ministry it's just impossible student Ministry depending on the size you actually could depending on the size you actually could depending on the size you actually could have a room of 60 students keep them in have a room of 60 students keep them in have a room of 60 students keep them in one big room and you can handle it with one big room and you can handle it with one big room and you can handle it with like four volunteers not lead it well like four volunteers not lead it well like four volunteers not lead it well but you can handle and that's a lot of but you can handle and that's a lot of but you can handle and that's a lot of churches comms is like almost another churches comms is like almost another churches comms is like almost another level because you're creating things level because you're creating things level because you're creating things that many people consume but one person that many people consume but one person that many people consume but one person you could almost I don't again I don't you could almost I don't again I don't you could almost I don't again I don't think it's good but you can almost get think it's good but you can almost get think it's good but you can almost get by with just you never using a volunteer by with just you never using a volunteer by with just you never using a volunteer and that's probably not good for the and that's probably not good for the and that's probably not good for the church but you can get it done right you church but you can get it done right you church but you can get it done right you could and it actually in anything could and it actually in anything could and it actually in anything operation wise right yeah accounting or

operation wise right yeah accounting or operation wise right yeah accounting or HR or whatever I.T or anything on that HR or whatever I.T or anything on that HR or whatever I.T or anything on that side of the house that's why I said when side of the house that's why I said when side of the house that's why I said when I was on that side of the house I Never I was on that side of the house I Never I was on that side of the house I Never Had A playbook Had A playbook Had A playbook so I'm just like darn it I wish I would so I'm just like darn it I wish I would so I'm just like darn it I wish I would have had this Playbook and I'm telling have had this Playbook and I'm telling have had this Playbook and I'm telling you comp directors you need to get this you comp directors you need to get this you comp directors you need to get this book and because there is talent in your book and because there is talent in your book and because there is talent in your congregation that God has gifted and congregation that God has gifted and congregation that God has gifted and you're not tapping into it I'm telling you're not tapping into it I'm telling you're not tapping into it I'm telling you it's just it's stressful to stay at you it's just it's stressful to stay at you it's just it's stressful to stay at that high level all the time it's much that high level all the time it's much that high level all the time it's much easier to keep it down to 80 by the way easier to keep it down to 80 by the way easier to keep it down to 80 by the way most people don't even recognize or most people don't even recognize or most people don't even recognize or notice it none of the kids that's true notice it none of the kids that's true notice it none of the kids that's true no it used to be better back when you no it used to be better back when you no it used to be better back when you get your program in it now that you got get your program in it now that you got get your program in it now that you got volunteers doing it I don't know if I volunteers doing it I don't know if I volunteers doing it I don't know if I like this says the fourth grader yeah like this says the fourth grader yeah like this says the fourth grader yeah never ever ever right they don't care never ever ever right they don't care never ever ever right they don't care about that so come down a little bit and about that so come down a little bit and about that so come down a little bit and be realistic yeah and I I would imagine be realistic yeah and I I would imagine be realistic yeah and I I would imagine I mean like I was thinking about what I mean like I was thinking about what I mean like I was thinking about what you said that there's all these untapped you said that there's all these untapped you said that there's all these untapped potential in terms of gifts and skills potential in terms of gifts and skills potential in terms of gifts and skills that don't get used if you're not that don't get used if you're not that don't get used if you're not leveraging volunteers on that side of leveraging volunteers on that side of leveraging volunteers on that side of the house and we've seen an art Church the house and we've seen an art Church the house and we've seen an art Church where it's benefited other Ministries so where it's benefited other Ministries so where it's benefited other Ministries so for example with our church we're not for example with our church we're not for example with our church we're not the size where every Ministry can get the size where every Ministry can get the size where every Ministry can get the talent and skill of our comms and the talent and skill of our comms and the talent and skill of our comms and graphic fix and all of that but because graphic fix and all of that but because graphic fix and all of that but because of volunteers they kind of do on the of volunteers they kind of do on the of volunteers they kind of do on the social media side even on the graphic social media side even on the graphic social media side even on the graphic side one of our volunteers actually side one of our volunteers actually side one of our volunteers actually moved out of state you know she lives moved out of state you know she lives moved out of state you know she lives here in Maryland as part of our church here in Maryland as part of our church here in Maryland as part of our church for the longest time she leads our kids for the longest time she leads our kids for the longest time she leads our kids social media she does all that yeah and social media she does all that yeah and social media she does all that yeah and she moved to Nashville and I don't know she moved to Nashville and I don't know she moved to Nashville and I don't know how long this is going to last but she how long this is going to last but she how long this is going to last but she still does our kids social media as a

still does our kids social media as a still does our kids social media as a volunteer and she's very particular volunteer and she's very particular volunteer and she's very particular about it like I don't think she could about it like I don't think she could about it like I don't think she could ever hand it off at 80 guys she's very ever hand it off at 80 guys she's very ever hand it off at 80 guys she's very particularly about it particularly about it particularly about it um but it's great because like her um but it's great because like her um but it's great because like her percentage just I mean she took it from percentage just I mean she took it from percentage just I mean she took it from our 20 and you know raised it to 120 or our 20 and you know raised it to 120 or our 20 and you know raised it to 120 or something like that yeah but that's an something like that yeah but that's an something like that yeah but that's an example of some people love that and example of some people love that and example of some people love that and then I don't even know how I mean she's then I don't even know how I mean she's then I don't even know how I mean she's probably not even spending two hours a probably not even spending two hours a probably not even spending two hours a week and you know at one point I gave week and you know at one point I gave week and you know at one point I gave her the freedom when she was leaving her the freedom when she was leaving her the freedom when she was leaving it's like you know you might probably it's like you know you might probably it's like you know you might probably want to do this for whatever Church want to do this for whatever Church want to do this for whatever Church you're going to be a part of there but you're going to be a part of there but you're going to be a part of there but she's like now I want to keep it for now she's like now I want to keep it for now she's like now I want to keep it for now like I'm not fighting it because it's like I'm not fighting it because it's like I'm not fighting it because it's amazing so yeah if you want to do it but amazing so yeah if you want to do it but amazing so yeah if you want to do it but that's an example of like if we weren't that's an example of like if we weren't that's an example of like if we weren't using volunteers what would happen is it using volunteers what would happen is it using volunteers what would happen is it just wouldn't even happen we wouldn't just wouldn't even happen we wouldn't just wouldn't even happen we wouldn't have separate kids social that was well have separate kids social that was well have separate kids social that was well done and all the those things and done and all the those things and done and all the those things and volunteers have made that possible you volunteers have made that possible you volunteers have made that possible you know and there's something else that I know and there's something else that I know and there's something else that I think is important I I when I was on think is important I I when I was on think is important I I when I was on staff at my church we kind of went from staff at my church we kind of went from staff at my church we kind of went from you're a member to and we we kind of you're a member to and we we kind of you're a member to and we we kind of scratched that word because that felt scratched that word because that felt scratched that word because that felt exclusive we said you're an owner you exclusive we said you're an owner you exclusive we said you're an owner you you're an owner of this yeah yeah and you're an owner of this yeah yeah and you're an owner of this yeah yeah and that's true like because the church is a that's true like because the church is a that's true like because the church is a body of Believers and because we give to body of Believers and because we give to body of Believers and because we give to it we're an owner of it and so that it we're an owner of it and so that it we're an owner of it and so that really levels the playing field staff to really levels the playing field staff to really levels the playing field staff to volunteers we're all equal and when you volunteers we're all equal and when you volunteers we're all equal and when you when you mentally go there with this is when you mentally go there with this is when you mentally go there with this is just my observation you can mentally go just my observation you can mentally go just my observation you can mentally go there that gives that empowers people there that gives that empowers people there that gives that empowers people that they're an owner of it and they're that they're an owner of it and they're that they're an owner of it and they're going to bring more than just oh I don't going to bring more than just oh I don't going to bring more than just oh I don't have to almost I'm a volunteer I I have to almost I'm a volunteer I I have to almost I'm a volunteer I I choose not to show up today yeah well choose not to show up today yeah well choose not to show up today yeah well then you're failing your business that then you're failing your business that then you're failing your business that you own right and so that's kind of a you own right and so that's kind of a you own right and so that's kind of a cool way to look at it yeah that's like cool way to look at it yeah that's like cool way to look at it yeah that's like the think like an owner not a renter you

the think like an owner not a renter you the think like an owner not a renter you know it's like one of those phrases that know it's like one of those phrases that know it's like one of those phrases that it's in another book I believe that's it's in another book I believe that's it's in another book I believe that's great about volunteers and uh and you great about volunteers and uh and you great about volunteers and uh and you know actually one of our staff values is know actually one of our staff values is know actually one of our staff values is Think Like an owner for that same reason Think Like an owner for that same reason Think Like an owner for that same reason because like it'd be easy as a staff because like it'd be easy as a staff because like it'd be easy as a staff person in whatever Department to person in whatever Department to person in whatever Department to overlook something whereas if you overlook something whereas if you overlook something whereas if you thought like an owner you wouldn't thought like an owner you wouldn't thought like an owner you wouldn't Overlook anything like you'd care about Overlook anything like you'd care about Overlook anything like you'd care about that piece of trash I did it and you all that piece of trash I did it and you all that piece of trash I did it and you all know who Jeff Henderson is used to be know who Jeff Henderson is used to be know who Jeff Henderson is used to be one of the campus pastors of North Point one of the campus pastors of North Point one of the campus pastors of North Point and written some great books one time and written some great books one time and written some great books one time when I got to interview Jeff Henderson when I got to interview Jeff Henderson when I got to interview Jeff Henderson for my podcast we're walking they're for my podcast we're walking they're for my podcast we're walking they're doing construction in the building there doing construction in the building there doing construction in the building there to expand the student space and we're to expand the student space and we're to expand the student space and we're walking we're going to do this interview walking we're going to do this interview walking we're going to do this interview at the Gwinnett church building and at the Gwinnett church building and at the Gwinnett church building and we're walking from one place the other we're walking from one place the other we're walking from one place the other and Jeff you know leans over and picks and Jeff you know leans over and picks and Jeff you know leans over and picks like up a mint wrapper off the ground like up a mint wrapper off the ground like up a mint wrapper off the ground and I happen to know from Noah Jeff a and I happen to know from Noah Jeff a and I happen to know from Noah Jeff a little bit and other people know him little bit and other people know him little bit and other people know him that that's just who he is like that's that that's just who he is like that's that that's just who he is like that's he and he's taught talked about that he and he's taught talked about that he and he's taught talked about that kind of thing but it was fun for me to kind of thing but it was fun for me to kind of thing but it was fun for me to see it in action like Jeff was the owner see it in action like Jeff was the owner see it in action like Jeff was the owner I mean he was the pastor of that campus I mean he was the pastor of that campus I mean he was the pastor of that campus but he would do that even if he was the but he would do that even if he was the but he would do that even if he was the lowest level so to speak employee in the lowest level so to speak employee in the lowest level so to speak employee in the whole organization because he always whole organization because he always whole organization because he always thought like an owner you know and I thought like an owner you know and I thought like an owner you know and I think that's important think that's important think that's important and owner good and here's the thing I and owner good and here's the thing I and owner good and here's the thing I guess a lot of owners do do everything guess a lot of owners do do everything guess a lot of owners do do everything which is not great but a good owner which is not great but a good owner which is not great but a good owner doesn't right so think like an owner is doesn't right so think like an owner is doesn't right so think like an owner is also how can I Empower volunteers also how can I Empower volunteers also how can I Empower volunteers Dave Ramsey uses the term treadmill Dave Ramsey uses the term treadmill Dave Ramsey uses the term treadmill operator for the owner who does operator for the owner who does operator for the owner who does everything when you're a treadmill everything when you're a treadmill everything when you're a treadmill operator you're on a treadmill and that operator you're on a treadmill and that operator you're on a treadmill and that thing runs and you can never get off and thing runs and you can never get off and thing runs and you can never get off and you leave the treadmill when you you leave the treadmill when you you leave the treadmill when you actually have the opportunity to begin actually have the opportunity to begin actually have the opportunity to begin empowering other people to do some of empowering other people to do some of empowering other people to do some of the things that you do training the things that you do training the things that you do training equipping and I think the same thing is equipping and I think the same thing is equipping and I think the same thing is true in ministry right if you're the one

true in ministry right if you're the one true in ministry right if you're the one doing all the work all the time it's doing all the work all the time it's doing all the work all the time it's like being on a treadmill because Sunday like being on a treadmill because Sunday like being on a treadmill because Sunday is always coming is always coming is always coming there there hasn't been a week yet since there there hasn't been a week yet since there there hasn't been a week yet since our calendar was invented but we just our calendar was invented but we just our calendar was invented but we just skipped to Sunday you know we skip a skipped to Sunday you know we skip a skipped to Sunday you know we skip a February 29th every you know every four February 29th every you know every four February 29th every you know every four years in a row three out of four years years in a row three out of four years years in a row three out of four years yeah right yeah three out of four years yeah right yeah three out of four years yeah right yeah three out of four years but we don't skip Sundays even if it but we don't skip Sundays even if it but we don't skip Sundays even if it falls on a Sunday they just yeah today falls on a Sunday they just yeah today falls on a Sunday they just yeah today it's still still a Sunday right so it's still still a Sunday right so it's still still a Sunday right so there's the Earth you know the tyranny there's the Earth you know the tyranny there's the Earth you know the tyranny of the Urgent of the Urgent of the Urgent um and and I think there's just a lot of um and and I think there's just a lot of um and and I think there's just a lot of a lot of wisdom in in what you're saying a lot of wisdom in in what you're saying a lot of wisdom in in what you're saying there Nick um I want to push into there Nick um I want to push into there Nick um I want to push into something else in the book something else in the book something else in the book um I'm just going to say I've only read um I'm just going to say I've only read um I'm just going to say I've only read the first half I've already recommended the first half I've already recommended the first half I've already recommended it to about 28 different people it to about 28 different people it to about 28 different people um because I appreciate it just because um because I appreciate it just because um because I appreciate it just because here here's here's why I think here's here here's here's why I think here's here here's here's why I think here's why I think people need to get the book why I think people need to get the book why I think people need to get the book because it is really really practical because it is really really practical because it is really really practical um you do you obviously you lead the the um you do you obviously you lead the the um you do you obviously you lead the the children's ministry family Ministries in children's ministry family Ministries in children's ministry family Ministries in your church but what our listeners don't your church but what our listeners don't your church but what our listeners don't know because you didn't mention this know because you didn't mention this know because you didn't mention this earlier is that you also oversee the earlier is that you also oversee the earlier is that you also oversee the digital strategies in your church and so digital strategies in your church and so digital strategies in your church and so that's how actually how we know each that's how actually how we know each that's how actually how we know each other because we meet regularly and talk other because we meet regularly and talk other because we meet regularly and talk about your digital strategies as a about your digital strategies as a about your digital strategies as a church so you have your head and your church so you have your head and your church so you have your head and your your hands around a lot of different your hands around a lot of different your hands around a lot of different things things things first half of the book I'm about maybe first half of the book I'm about maybe first half of the book I'm about maybe 60 of the way through so far is really 60 of the way through so far is really 60 of the way through so far is really practical in terms of establishing a practical in terms of establishing a practical in terms of establishing a culture uh recruitment ways that we're culture uh recruitment ways that we're culture uh recruitment ways that we're getting volunteers to serve on our team

getting volunteers to serve on our team getting volunteers to serve on our team um I haven't read the last 40 percent of um I haven't read the last 40 percent of um I haven't read the last 40 percent of the book yet so I I maybe I'm going the book yet so I I maybe I'm going the book yet so I I maybe I'm going somewhere that you don't go but I'm somewhere that you don't go but I'm somewhere that you don't go but I'm going to ask you this question if I have going to ask you this question if I have going to ask you this question if I have volunteers that I'm leading if I have a volunteers that I'm leading if I have a volunteers that I'm leading if I have a team how do I effectively Shepherd and team how do I effectively Shepherd and team how do I effectively Shepherd and Lead that team so I don't lose that team Lead that team so I don't lose that team Lead that team so I don't lose that team are we going to get there in the book oh are we going to get there in the book oh are we going to get there in the book oh that's good not really uh I know which that's good not really uh I know which that's good not really uh I know which is funny because and well two reasons is funny because and well two reasons is funny because and well two reasons one one one um I would say that a lot of things in um I would say that a lot of things in um I would say that a lot of things in the book are designed that if you can the book are designed that if you can the book are designed that if you can build this healthy system and strategy build this healthy system and strategy build this healthy system and strategy people aren't going to leave because a people aren't going to leave because a people aren't going to leave because a lot of these elements go to that but the lot of these elements go to that but the lot of these elements go to that but the other reason is because some friends of other reason is because some friends of other reason is because some friends of mine Darren Kaiser and Christine mine Darren Kaiser and Christine mine Darren Kaiser and Christine Kreischer wrote a great book called stop Kreischer wrote a great book called stop Kreischer wrote a great book called stop recruiting start retaining all about recruiting start retaining all about recruiting start retaining all about volunteer retention and so like part of volunteer retention and so like part of volunteer retention and so like part of me felt like there's a great resource me felt like there's a great resource me felt like there's a great resource out there on that which I know that's a out there on that which I know that's a out there on that which I know that's a thing where it's like you should always thing where it's like you should always thing where it's like you should always write a book even if there's one out write a book even if there's one out write a book even if there's one out there but in my mind I thought there but in my mind I thought there but in my mind I thought um that could have been like another two um that could have been like another two um that could have been like another two or three chapters but I was like why do or three chapters but I was like why do or three chapters but I was like why do that when there's a better resource but that when there's a better resource but that when there's a better resource but we could certainly talk about it I think we could certainly talk about it I think we could certainly talk about it I think because some parts of the book certainly because some parts of the book certainly because some parts of the book certainly do get at that I think a lot of times do get at that I think a lot of times do get at that I think a lot of times you lose people because of a bad culture you lose people because of a bad culture you lose people because of a bad culture and we talked about that unhealthy and we talked about that unhealthy and we talked about that unhealthy culture I think unclear expectations is culture I think unclear expectations is culture I think unclear expectations is another way we lose people you know like another way we lose people you know like another way we lose people you know like hey hey hey um I we said the role was this and then um I we said the role was this and then um I we said the role was this and then it turned out to be huge and it was this it turned out to be huge and it was this it turned out to be huge and it was this or we said the role was this and it's or we said the role was this and it's or we said the role was this and it's not that it's a bigger role but you're not that it's a bigger role but you're not that it's a bigger role but you're not sure what's supposed to be happening not sure what's supposed to be happening not sure what's supposed to be happening here and so every week you leave feeling here and so every week you leave feeling here and so every week you leave feeling like you lost like that didn't feel like like you lost like that didn't feel like like you lost like that didn't feel like a good day you know what I mean whatever a good day you know what I mean whatever a good day you know what I mean whatever that Ministry is like you're missing that Ministry is like you're missing that Ministry is like you're missing deadlines on the com side or something's deadlines on the com side or something's deadlines on the com side or something's not working right it just nobody likes

not working right it just nobody likes not working right it just nobody likes that feeling you know be like if you that feeling you know be like if you that feeling you know be like if you were the preacher and every every I mean were the preacher and every every I mean were the preacher and every every I mean every every preacher knows you got every every preacher knows you got every every preacher knows you got messages for like that was a dud you messages for like that was a dud you messages for like that was a dud you know and then and then of course with know and then and then of course with know and then and then of course with preaching it's funny because sometimes preaching it's funny because sometimes preaching it's funny because sometimes it's like that changed somebody's life it's like that changed somebody's life it's like that changed somebody's life you know but you don't want that every you know but you don't want that every you know but you don't want that every Sunday no team wants to leave feeling Sunday no team wants to leave feeling Sunday no team wants to leave feeling like did I did we do well did that work like did I did we do well did that work like did I did we do well did that work that felt like a failure so I think that felt like a failure so I think that felt like a failure so I think healthy culture clear expectations but healthy culture clear expectations but healthy culture clear expectations but then the other element that is talked then the other element that is talked then the other element that is talked about in the book but not in a large about in the book but not in a large about in the book but not in a large capacity is probably care you know are capacity is probably care you know are capacity is probably care you know are we and and the structure section of the we and and the structure section of the we and and the structure section of the book actually gets at that it's the idea book actually gets at that it's the idea book actually gets at that it's the idea that if you have more than 10 volunteers that if you have more than 10 volunteers that if you have more than 10 volunteers you probably need a structure where some you probably need a structure where some you probably need a structure where some volunteers are leading other volunteers volunteers are leading other volunteers volunteers are leading other volunteers and I'll tell you one story as an and I'll tell you one story as an and I'll tell you one story as an example of this we've had that for years example of this we've had that for years example of this we've had that for years because I've learned that from some because I've learned that from some because I've learned that from some great mentors like Jim Weidman we've had great mentors like Jim Weidman we've had great mentors like Jim Weidman we've had we didn't have in the beginning but a we didn't have in the beginning but a we didn't have in the beginning but a few years in we started putting in a few years in we started putting in a few years in we started putting in a structure of volunteer coaches who led structure of volunteer coaches who led structure of volunteer coaches who led other volunteers and it was great it was other volunteers and it was great it was other volunteers and it was great it was so helpful you know we were able to have so helpful you know we were able to have so helpful you know we were able to have 150 volunteers and you know they didn't 150 volunteers and you know they didn't 150 volunteers and you know they didn't all report to one person you know what I all report to one person you know what I all report to one person you know what I mean they reported to coaches who mean they reported to coaches who mean they reported to coaches who reported to a director and then that reported to a director and then that reported to a director and then that those volunteer directors reported to me those volunteer directors reported to me those volunteer directors reported to me well years down the road we've got well years down the road we've got well years down the road we've got multiple Staffing kids at this point multiple Staffing kids at this point multiple Staffing kids at this point we've got this volunteer kid room which we've got this volunteer kid room which we've got this volunteer kid room which is a popular thing in some children's is a popular thing in some children's is a popular thing in some children's ministries where like if you're if ministries where like if you're if ministries where like if you're if you're a volunteer and your kid's there you're a volunteer and your kid's there you're a volunteer and your kid's there for two Services they can go to the for two Services they can go to the for two Services they can go to the volunteer kid room for the other service volunteer kid room for the other service volunteer kid room for the other service and it's just fun like they go to the and it's just fun like they go to the and it's just fun like they go to the kids ministry in the one service they go kids ministry in the one service they go kids ministry in the one service they go to that kid room well we've had to that kid room well we've had to that kid room well we've had different volunteers lead in there different volunteers lead in there different volunteers lead in there because it was kind of like an because it was kind of like an because it was kind of like an additional item which comms directors additional item which comms directors additional item which comms directors understand this like a lot of the

understand this like a lot of the understand this like a lot of the volunteers you have volunteers you have volunteers you have where do they fit cleanly you know it's where do they fit cleanly you know it's where do they fit cleanly you know it's gonna be tough like every video and that gonna be tough like every video and that gonna be tough like every video and that could be social media so like how do could be social media so like how do could be social media so like how do they all work together well that didn't they all work together well that didn't they all work together well that didn't fit cleanly under any of our coaches fit cleanly under any of our coaches fit cleanly under any of our coaches because our coaches were small group because our coaches were small group because our coaches were small group leader coaches or large group leader leader coaches or large group leader leader coaches or large group leader coaches there was no such thing as like coaches there was no such thing as like coaches there was no such thing as like a volunteer kids room coach you know a volunteer kids room coach you know a volunteer kids room coach you know what I mean so what happened was the what I mean so what happened was the what I mean so what happened was the staff person was leading that team staff person was leading that team staff person was leading that team directly well like you would expect they directly well like you would expect they directly well like you would expect they got lots of things going on and so they got lots of things going on and so they got lots of things going on and so they weren't leading that that group of weren't leading that that group of weren't leading that that group of volunteers really well they weren't volunteers really well they weren't volunteers really well they weren't meeting with them one-on-one like meeting with them one-on-one like meeting with them one-on-one like they're supposed to and and that's not they're supposed to and and that's not they're supposed to and and that's not just their fault that's just how all of just their fault that's just how all of just their fault that's just how all of us do because it feels lower on the us do because it feels lower on the us do because it feels lower on the priority anyway our short-term solution priority anyway our short-term solution priority anyway our short-term solution was let's go ahead and put that person was let's go ahead and put that person was let's go ahead and put that person under the coach who leads in elementary under the coach who leads in elementary under the coach who leads in elementary at that service it's not clean but at at that service it's not clean but at at that service it's not clean but at least they'll have somebody to care for least they'll have somebody to care for least they'll have somebody to care for them them them first two weeks the coach does a great first two weeks the coach does a great first two weeks the coach does a great job has a one-on-one meets with her job has a one-on-one meets with her job has a one-on-one meets with her finds out that her dad had just passed finds out that her dad had just passed finds out that her dad had just passed away two weeks earlier nobody knew away two weeks earlier nobody knew away two weeks earlier nobody knew nobody knew because partially because nobody knew because partially because nobody knew because partially because she's introverted and she just wasn't she's introverted and she just wasn't she's introverted and she just wasn't one of the things she's gonna go tell one of the things she's gonna go tell one of the things she's gonna go tell people people people um partially because she hadn't really um partially because she hadn't really um partially because she hadn't really established a great relationship maybe established a great relationship maybe established a great relationship maybe with the other leaders in the room but with the other leaders in the room but with the other leaders in the room but mainly because nobody was there to care mainly because nobody was there to care mainly because nobody was there to care and no and so it putting him in that and no and so it putting him in that and no and so it putting him in that position and him using his strengths and position and him using his strengths and position and him using his strengths and meeting with her was was so needed and meeting with her was was so needed and meeting with her was was so needed and that could have totally gotten missed that could have totally gotten missed that could have totally gotten missed and probably has been missed in other and probably has been missed in other and probably has been missed in other ways so I think that that care and it ways so I think that that care and it ways so I think that that care and it doesn't have to be you that's the doesn't have to be you that's the doesn't have to be you that's the difference like if you're the comms difference like if you're the comms difference like if you're the comms director and you've got lots of director and you've got lots of director and you've got lots of volunteers which obviously probably volunteers which obviously probably volunteers which obviously probably isn't most cons directors but as you

isn't most cons directors but as you isn't most cons directors but as you build it be thinking about how am I build it be thinking about how am I build it be thinking about how am I meeting with people one-on-one not about meeting with people one-on-one not about meeting with people one-on-one not about comms how are you doing what's going on comms how are you doing what's going on comms how are you doing what's going on in your life how's your son's soccer in your life how's your son's soccer in your life how's your son's soccer team doing you know what's how's your team doing you know what's how's your team doing you know what's how's your relationship with God what are you relationship with God what are you relationship with God what are you praying about lately like those kinds of praying about lately like those kinds of praying about lately like those kinds of things things things the way I say it is like refill the tank the way I say it is like refill the tank the way I say it is like refill the tank you know for people that helps them you know for people that helps them you know for people that helps them stick for the Long Haul stick for the Long Haul stick for the Long Haul so I think those are some ideas so I think those are some ideas so I think those are some ideas that's so good what what percentage that's so good what what percentage that's so good what what percentage should should should well it's pretty I mean so for well it's pretty I mean so for well it's pretty I mean so for children's ministries children's ministries children's ministries what percentage of their time should be what percentage of their time should be what percentage of their time should be focused on volunteer I'm focusing on the focused on volunteer I'm focusing on the focused on volunteer I'm focusing on the volunteers volunteers volunteers oh good question I would say 80. like oh good question I would say 80. like oh good question I would say 80. like I'll go High real high like I don't I'll go High real high like I don't I'll go High real high like I don't think it's that high actually for most think it's that high actually for most think it's that high actually for most people because if you think like take a people because if you think like take a people because if you think like take a children's ministry for example children's ministry for example children's ministry for example um now there's different versions I mean um now there's different versions I mean um now there's different versions I mean if your church is 5 000 that's different if your church is 5 000 that's different if your church is 5 000 that's different than you know if you're 500 but if than you know if you're 500 but if than you know if you're 500 but if you're a church of 500 100 kids you're you're a church of 500 100 kids you're you're a church of 500 100 kids you're the children's Pastor maybe you've got the children's Pastor maybe you've got the children's Pastor maybe you've got 40 50 volunteers or something like that 40 50 volunteers or something like that 40 50 volunteers or something like that um and some people see the numbers are um and some people see the numbers are um and some people see the numbers are funny to share because somebody's funny to share because somebody's funny to share because somebody's listening going I wish I had that many listening going I wish I had that many listening going I wish I had that many volunteers like going I gotta double volunteers like going I gotta double volunteers like going I gotta double that number of volunteers like it all that number of volunteers like it all that number of volunteers like it all depends on how often they serve but uh I depends on how often they serve but uh I depends on how often they serve but uh I think a lot of kids pastors if they think a lot of kids pastors if they think a lot of kids pastors if they looked at their week would be like this looked at their week would be like this looked at their week would be like this chunk of time is meetings which I chunk of time is meetings which I chunk of time is meetings which I understand some of that is not our understand some of that is not our understand some of that is not our decision decision decision um this chunk of time is prepping um this chunk of time is prepping um this chunk of time is prepping curriculum this chunk of time is curriculum this chunk of time is curriculum this chunk of time is scheduling volunteers this chunk of time scheduling volunteers this chunk of time scheduling volunteers this chunk of time is getting the large group thing ready is getting the large group thing ready is getting the large group thing ready this chunk of time is working on an this chunk of time is working on an this chunk of time is working on an event and I think in reality volunteers event and I think in reality volunteers event and I think in reality volunteers get

get get they get an email they get an email they get an email you know they get some you talk to them you know they get some you talk to them you know they get some you talk to them a little bit when you see them and I a little bit when you see them and I a little bit when you see them and I think think think this might sound Pie in the Sky 80 might this might sound Pie in the Sky 80 might this might sound Pie in the Sky 80 might be high just because of the other things be high just because of the other things be high just because of the other things you have to do that aren't your decision you have to do that aren't your decision you have to do that aren't your decision meetings and things like that but but 50 meetings and things like that but but 50 meetings and things like that but but 50 to 60 for sure you know and then here's to 60 for sure you know and then here's to 60 for sure you know and then here's where it gets even more where it gets even more where it gets even more uh healthy I think but also complicated uh healthy I think but also complicated uh healthy I think but also complicated is if you were the children's Pastor the is if you were the children's Pastor the is if you were the children's Pastor the Church of a hundred don't spend 50 of Church of a hundred don't spend 50 of Church of a hundred don't spend 50 of your time with 100 with 50 volunteers your time with 100 with 50 volunteers your time with 100 with 50 volunteers spend 40 percent of your time with 10 spend 40 percent of your time with 10 spend 40 percent of your time with 10 volunteers that are like your leaders volunteers that are like your leaders volunteers that are like your leaders yeah and then and let them spend time yeah and then and let them spend time yeah and then and let them spend time with the rest right and then and then with the rest right and then and then with the rest right and then and then you still have time with all of them but you still have time with all of them but you still have time with all of them but you're kind of it's you know this isn't you're kind of it's you know this isn't you're kind of it's you know this isn't new this is kind of like Jesus using 12 new this is kind of like Jesus using 12 new this is kind of like Jesus using 12 disciples and three that he focused on disciples and three that he focused on disciples and three that he focused on more and then there was a bunch of more and then there was a bunch of more and then there was a bunch of followers after that so there's like or followers after that so there's like or followers after that so there's like or Exodus 18 right uh Moses learns from his Exodus 18 right uh Moses learns from his Exodus 18 right uh Moses learns from his father-in-law how to have leaders of father-in-law how to have leaders of father-in-law how to have leaders of tens and fifties and hundreds so I feel tens and fifties and hundreds so I feel tens and fifties and hundreds so I feel like it's a Biblical principle it's kind like it's a Biblical principle it's kind like it's a Biblical principle it's kind of been it's not been hijacked but it's of been it's not been hijacked but it's of been it's not been hijacked but it's more popular in the business world you more popular in the business world you more popular in the business world you know to have structure and things like know to have structure and things like know to have structure and things like that but I feel like it's a Biblical that but I feel like it's a Biblical that but I feel like it's a Biblical thing and most staff don't spend enough thing and most staff don't spend enough thing and most staff don't spend enough time investing in leading in volunteers time investing in leading in volunteers time investing in leading in volunteers we spend too much time doing and I'm we spend too much time doing and I'm we spend too much time doing and I'm sure that's true in comms too like and sure that's true in comms too like and sure that's true in comms too like and I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm um guilty of that like when I took that um guilty of that like when I took that um guilty of that like when I took that over in our world my first thought over in our world my first thought over in our world my first thought wasn't who do I need to get you know my wasn't who do I need to get you know my wasn't who do I need to get you know my first thought was what do I want this to first thought was what do I want this to first thought was what do I want this to become what do we need to change or become what do we need to change or become what do we need to change or tweak but quickly especially with what's tweak but quickly especially with what's tweak but quickly especially with what's on my plate it was like oh no oh no I on my plate it was like oh no oh no I on my plate it was like oh no oh no I need some help I need some help you know

need some help I need some help you know need some help I need some help you know so yeah you also notice that the so yeah you also notice that the so yeah you also notice that the possibly that that that Stellar possibly that that that Stellar possibly that that that Stellar volunteer could be the next Elder so volunteer could be the next Elder so volunteer could be the next Elder so just oh yeah totally yeah we have we just oh yeah totally yeah we have we just oh yeah totally yeah we have we have multiple I mean I did the thing have multiple I mean I did the thing have multiple I mean I did the thing real quick off top my head real quick off top my head real quick off top my head uh 40 probably of our staff came from uh 40 probably of our staff came from uh 40 probably of our staff came from internal at um well actually that's not internal at um well actually that's not internal at um well actually that's not true all but one of our staff was hired true all but one of our staff was hired true all but one of our staff was hired from within the church but forty percent from within the church but forty percent from within the church but forty percent of the of them were like volunteers who of the of them were like volunteers who of the of them were like volunteers who became leaders and then coaches and then became leaders and then coaches and then became leaders and then coaches and then became staff yeah so yeah and some of became staff yeah so yeah and some of became staff yeah so yeah and some of them are one of them is an elder now it them are one of them is an elder now it them are one of them is an elder now it was me yeah yeah I mean that's it's just was me yeah yeah I mean that's it's just was me yeah yeah I mean that's it's just healthy right it's just people it's one healthy right it's just people it's one healthy right it's just people it's one of those it is and it's one of those of those it is and it's one of those of those it is and it's one of those things that really helps your church things that really helps your church things that really helps your church maintain a healthy culture because maintain a healthy culture because maintain a healthy culture because you're hiring people you're bringing you're hiring people you're bringing you're hiring people you're bringing people on to staff who already know and people on to staff who already know and people on to staff who already know and get your your culture one of the things get your your culture one of the things get your your culture one of the things that I was gonna just kind of point out that I was gonna just kind of point out that I was gonna just kind of point out we're gonna land the plane here in just we're gonna land the plane here in just we're gonna land the plane here in just a minute but as you were talking about a minute but as you were talking about a minute but as you were talking about that that investment in the volunteers that that investment in the volunteers that that investment in the volunteers on that personal level I think you know on that personal level I think you know on that personal level I think you know we're we're we're in which 2023 three years ago we were in in which 2023 three years ago we were in in which 2023 three years ago we were in the middle of the coveted pandemic at the middle of the coveted pandemic at the middle of the coveted pandemic at this time and in many conversations that this time and in many conversations that this time and in many conversations that I had with church members church leaders I had with church members church leaders I had with church members church leaders one of the things that was really one of the things that was really one of the things that was really highlighted in the pandemic was the fact highlighted in the pandemic was the fact highlighted in the pandemic was the fact that many Ministry leaders were not that many Ministry leaders were not that many Ministry leaders were not personally invested in the people that personally invested in the people that personally invested in the people that served with them because as soon as they served with them because as soon as they served with them because as soon as they stopped showing up to do the ministry stopped showing up to do the ministry stopped showing up to do the ministry the relationships were kind of the relationships were kind of the relationships were kind of completely gone like all of a sudden completely gone like all of a sudden completely gone like all of a sudden people are watching church from their

people are watching church from their people are watching church from their couch at home and the staff is putting couch at home and the staff is putting couch at home and the staff is putting on whatever they're putting on the video on whatever they're putting on the video on whatever they're putting on the video on Facebook or YouTube or you know on Facebook or YouTube or you know on Facebook or YouTube or you know Church online platform and all of a Church online platform and all of a Church online platform and all of a sudden these volunteers who had been sudden these volunteers who had been sudden these volunteers who had been there every single week were like there every single week were like there every single week were like invisible invisible invisible um and I think that as a leader that's um and I think that as a leader that's um and I think that as a leader that's got to be a gut check got to be a gut check got to be a gut check um I know I was guilty of this when I um I know I was guilty of this when I um I know I was guilty of this when I first went into Ministry I went from a first went into Ministry I went from a first went into Ministry I went from a corporate job into Ministry and I was so corporate job into Ministry and I was so corporate job into Ministry and I was so focused on getting the job done that I focused on getting the job done that I focused on getting the job done that I often neglected the the people uh I I I often neglected the the people uh I I I often neglected the the people uh I I I I I I prioritized the production over the prioritized the production over the prioritized the production over the people and I I got called out for it people and I I got called out for it people and I I got called out for it once and it changed a lot for me it was once and it changed a lot for me it was once and it changed a lot for me it was a very very humbling moment I will never a very very humbling moment I will never a very very humbling moment I will never forget it when this guy that I was forget it when this guy that I was forget it when this guy that I was leading his wife said to me you leading his wife said to me you leading his wife said to me you prioritize the production over people prioritize the production over people prioritize the production over people and I was like holy smokes that's the and I was like holy smokes that's the and I was like holy smokes that's the most harsh thing anybody has ever said most harsh thing anybody has ever said most harsh thing anybody has ever said to me but it's a hundred percent true it to me but it's a hundred percent true it to me but it's a hundred percent true it could also be yeah yeah I had to yeah I could also be yeah yeah I had to yeah I could also be yeah yeah I had to yeah I had to wear it and it it you know it had to wear it and it it you know it had to wear it and it it you know it changed a lot for me in terms of changed a lot for me in terms of changed a lot for me in terms of in terms of my approach to Ministry and in terms of my approach to Ministry and in terms of my approach to Ministry and the way that I I lead people and build the way that I I lead people and build the way that I I lead people and build teams now not saying that I'm perfect by teams now not saying that I'm perfect by teams now not saying that I'm perfect by any stretch the imagination and I'm not any stretch the imagination and I'm not any stretch the imagination and I'm not the hero of the story the hero of the story the hero of the story um but that was a moment of complete um but that was a moment of complete um but that was a moment of complete humility or humbling or oh shame I I humility or humbling or oh shame I I humility or humbling or oh shame I I can't tell you I felt I felt shame in can't tell you I felt I felt shame in can't tell you I felt I felt shame in that moment yeah so well it's like a that moment yeah so well it's like a that moment yeah so well it's like a tension Advantage too because it's not tension Advantage too because it's not tension Advantage too because it's not you know terrible production and we're

you know terrible production and we're you know terrible production and we're great at caring for volunteers it's also great at caring for volunteers it's also great at caring for volunteers it's also you know what I mean like it's attention you know what I mean like it's attention you know what I mean like it's attention you got to manage and find that just you got to manage and find that just you got to manage and find that just right and then there's you know let's right and then there's you know let's right and then there's you know let's just be honest there's volunteers where just be honest there's volunteers where just be honest there's volunteers where it's like it's like it's like because of what's going on in their life because of what's going on in their life because of what's going on in their life they are a Ministry more than being able they are a Ministry more than being able they are a Ministry more than being able to help you as a Ministry and we all to help you as a Ministry and we all to help you as a Ministry and we all have been there we're all Ministries you have been there we're all Ministries you have been there we're all Ministries you know at some point in most of our life know at some point in most of our life know at some point in most of our life and so there's also times where it's and so there's also times where it's and so there's also times where it's like oh yeah this isn't actually work like oh yeah this isn't actually work like oh yeah this isn't actually work and this is like going back to the and this is like going back to the and this is like going back to the culture thing we mentioned Like You on culture thing we mentioned Like You on culture thing we mentioned Like You on the team right now not healthy for this the team right now not healthy for this the team right now not healthy for this team and for you and so like that it team and for you and so like that it team and for you and so like that it could somebody could look from the could somebody could look from the could somebody could look from the outside and say you're prioritizing the outside and say you're prioritizing the outside and say you're prioritizing the production or the ministry over the production or the ministry over the production or the ministry over the volunteer and that's not necessarily volunteer and that's not necessarily volunteer and that's not necessarily true so that's that tough tension to true so that's that tough tension to true so that's that tough tension to manage but you're right I would say far manage but you're right I would say far manage but you're right I would say far more often we have leaned on the more often we have leaned on the more often we have leaned on the production producing content whatever it production producing content whatever it production producing content whatever it is side and people have taken a back is side and people have taken a back is side and people have taken a back seat and it's always the people that seat and it's always the people that seat and it's always the people that it's those people that are volunteers it's those people that are volunteers it's those people that are volunteers that you know should be closest to us to that you know should be closest to us to that you know should be closest to us to get some of the best of our time A lot get some of the best of our time A lot get some of the best of our time A lot of times they don't they we just we just of times they don't they we just we just of times they don't they we just we just we take them for granted it's probably we take them for granted it's probably we take them for granted it's probably the way I would say it and that's not the way I would say it and that's not the way I would say it and that's not that's not a good thing no that's not a good thing no that's not a good thing no well we better uh wrap this up Nick well we better uh wrap this up Nick well we better uh wrap this up Nick um just real quick how can people get um just real quick how can people get um just real quick how can people get their hands on this book their hands on this book their hands on this book you have to go to volunteerplaybook.com you have to go to volunteerplaybook.com you have to go to volunteerplaybook.com it just redirects to a page on my site it just redirects to a page on my site it just redirects to a page on my site that's probably the best way I mean you that's probably the best way I mean you that's probably the best way I mean you get it on Amazon and you can you know get it on Amazon and you can you know get it on Amazon and you can you know print digital audible I think you said print digital audible I think you said print digital audible I think you said you were listening to it recording that you were listening to it recording that you were listening to it recording that for audible by the way very challenging for audible by the way very challenging for audible by the way very challenging technically uh even for a podcaster like technically uh even for a podcaster like technically uh even for a podcaster like myself who thought I was set you know myself who thought I was set you know myself who thought I was set you know had the gear in the whole thing but it's had the gear in the whole thing but it's had the gear in the whole thing but it's out there and actually if you get the out there and actually if you get the out there and actually if you get the printer the the Kindle version you can

printer the the Kindle version you can printer the the Kindle version you can get a free version of the audio so like get a free version of the audio so like get a free version of the audio so like you just wanted like a two for one that you just wanted like a two for one that you just wanted like a two for one that way but the reason I say way but the reason I say way but the reason I say volunteerplaybook.com is because there's volunteerplaybook.com is because there's volunteerplaybook.com is because there's other resources I give away supposed to other resources I give away supposed to other resources I give away supposed to be like if you get the book you get them be like if you get the book you get them be like if you get the book you get them but I don't know how to check that so but I don't know how to check that so but I don't know how to check that so they're just all there so even if you they're just all there so even if you they're just all there so even if you don't buy the book you can get some of don't buy the book you can get some of don't buy the book you can get some of those free resources that go with each those free resources that go with each those free resources that go with each chapter all right yeah I do want to chapter all right yeah I do want to chapter all right yeah I do want to mention that that is actually part of mention that that is actually part of mention that that is actually part of the part of my own personal promo as the part of my own personal promo as the part of my own personal promo as I've been selling the book for you and I've been selling the book for you and I've been selling the book for you and hopefully a few people who bought a copy hopefully a few people who bought a copy hopefully a few people who bought a copy is that you do uh you have a lot of is that you do uh you have a lot of is that you do uh you have a lot of resources on the website that you refer resources on the website that you refer resources on the website that you refer to in the book one of one of the ones to in the book one of one of the ones to in the book one of one of the ones that stood out to me was volunteer jobs that stood out to me was volunteer jobs that stood out to me was volunteer jobs descriptions right like just sample job descriptions right like just sample job descriptions right like just sample job descriptions and other things so some descriptions and other things so some descriptions and other things so some really great resources for you there really great resources for you there really great resources for you there um Nick in addition to serving in your um Nick in addition to serving in your um Nick in addition to serving in your local church and having written a book local church and having written a book local church and having written a book you have a podcast and you have some you have a podcast and you have some you have a podcast and you have some other Ministry stuff that you do can you other Ministry stuff that you do can you other Ministry stuff that you do can you just kind of give us a quick fly by on just kind of give us a quick fly by on just kind of give us a quick fly by on some of that sure yeah I host the family some of that sure yeah I host the family some of that sure yeah I host the family ministry podcast it's been I think seven ministry podcast it's been I think seven ministry podcast it's been I think seven years now I've missed more in the last years now I've missed more in the last years now I've missed more in the last few years than I had earlier so like the few years than I had earlier so like the few years than I had earlier so like the number of episodes doesn't equal seven number of episodes doesn't equal seven number of episodes doesn't equal seven years times 52 or whatever but that's years times 52 or whatever but that's years times 52 or whatever but that's been fun you know kids ministry student been fun you know kids ministry student been fun you know kids ministry student Ministry family ministry overall like I Ministry family ministry overall like I Ministry family ministry overall like I get to like it kind of goes against the get to like it kind of goes against the get to like it kind of goes against the idea that you should have like a real idea that you should have like a real idea that you should have like a real focused audience on your podcast but I focused audience on your podcast but I focused audience on your podcast but I love it so that's like my world so I love it so that's like my world so I love it so that's like my world so I love that we get to talk teenagers one love that we get to talk teenagers one love that we get to talk teenagers one week and preschool and then parents and week and preschool and then parents and week and preschool and then parents and you know bounce around and then we you know bounce around and then we you know bounce around and then we started a company called Ministry boost started a company called Ministry boost started a company called Ministry boost about five years ago this course was the about five years ago this course was the about five years ago this course was the beginning actually of ministry boost it beginning actually of ministry boost it beginning actually of ministry boost it was the first course uh before it was

was the first course uh before it was was the first course uh before it was ever a book because it was easier to ever a book because it was easier to ever a book because it was easier to make a course than it was to make a book make a course than it was to make a book make a course than it was to make a book by the way and um Ministry booth dot org by the way and um Ministry booth dot org by the way and um Ministry booth dot org we have 30 courses bunch of resource we have 30 courses bunch of resource we have 30 courses bunch of resource bundles and some of the resource like bundles and some of the resource like bundles and some of the resource like when you get some of the resources in when you get some of the resources in when you get some of the resources in the book you're actually using our the book you're actually using our the book you're actually using our course platform to get access to some of course platform to get access to some of course platform to get access to some of that and it's kind of funny because the that and it's kind of funny because the that and it's kind of funny because the book book book um one of my business partners that owns um one of my business partners that owns um one of my business partners that owns Ministry booths boost with me was talk Ministry booths boost with me was talk Ministry booths boost with me was talk he and I were talking about it there's he and I were talking about it there's he and I were talking about it there's probably like seven courses represented probably like seven courses represented probably like seven courses represented in the book you know like there's in the book you know like there's in the book you know like there's certain chapters where that's a course certain chapters where that's a course certain chapters where that's a course by itself and that's of course by itself by itself and that's of course by itself by itself and that's of course by itself and then there's like those four and then there's like those four and then there's like those four chapters are a course and um so that's chapters are a course and um so that's chapters are a course and um so that's been kind of fun you know to CMB courses been kind of fun you know to CMB courses been kind of fun you know to CMB courses but then also the book and now I've but then also the book and now I've but then also the book and now I've created a new course called volunteer created a new course called volunteer created a new course called volunteer leadership that kind of gets at whatever leadership that kind of gets at whatever leadership that kind of gets at whatever remaining content wasn't already a remaining content wasn't already a remaining content wasn't already a course and people learn different ways course and people learn different ways course and people learn different ways so I'm just excited I was really excited so I'm just excited I was really excited so I'm just excited I was really excited about the book because I feel like you about the book because I feel like you about the book because I feel like you know courses cost more money know courses cost more money know courses cost more money um that's one way people learn but a lot um that's one way people learn but a lot um that's one way people learn but a lot of people love to learn through books of people love to learn through books of people love to learn through books it's cheaper to have a better reach and it's cheaper to have a better reach and it's cheaper to have a better reach and I just want as many church leaders as I just want as many church leaders as I just want as many church leaders as possible to be able to build healthy possible to be able to build healthy possible to be able to build healthy volunteer teams so I'm excited that it's volunteer teams so I'm excited that it's volunteer teams so I'm excited that it's out there finally after 10 years yeah out there finally after 10 years yeah out there finally after 10 years yeah well thank you my friend I appreciate well thank you my friend I appreciate well thank you my friend I appreciate you and your ministry and helping so you and your ministry and helping so you and your ministry and helping so many people and um keep up the good work many people and um keep up the good work many people and um keep up the good work right don't don't let up at all yeah right don't don't let up at all yeah right don't don't let up at all yeah well hopefully maybe right if I'm gonna well hopefully maybe right if I'm gonna well hopefully maybe right if I'm gonna write another book not take 10 years write another book not take 10 years write another book not take 10 years thank you for what you all do I'm a big thank you for what you all do I'm a big thank you for what you all do I'm a big evangelist for missional marketing I evangelist for missional marketing I evangelist for missional marketing I talk about you to everybody especially I talk about you to everybody especially I talk about you to everybody especially I mean there's so many churches that are mean there's so many churches that are mean there's so many churches that are not leveraging digital yeah not leveraging digital yeah not leveraging digital yeah some like not well at all but to some

some like not well at all but to some some like not well at all but to some are like I would say with um social are like I would say with um social are like I would say with um social media or their website but then there's media or their website but then there's media or their website but then there's that whole other world that you guys that whole other world that you guys that whole other world that you guys helped with that you have done helped with that you have done helped with that you have done tremendous work for us for uh actually tremendous work for us for uh actually tremendous work for us for uh actually you guys will like this story this is you guys will like this story this is you guys will like this story this is funny at the my end of your review last funny at the my end of your review last funny at the my end of your review last year uh one of the questions we ask so I year uh one of the questions we ask so I year uh one of the questions we ask so I had to answer this question to my pastor had to answer this question to my pastor had to answer this question to my pastor you know what is your biggest you know what is your biggest you know what is your biggest contribution to the church the last year contribution to the church the last year contribution to the church the last year my answer was helping our digital my answer was helping our digital my answer was helping our digital strategy reach more people online strategy reach more people online strategy reach more people online through our website and get more through our website and get more through our website and get more visitors and I said I hesitated to put visitors and I said I hesitated to put visitors and I said I hesitated to put this because it's hard to measure like this because it's hard to measure like this because it's hard to measure like you guys know you can measure the clicks you guys know you can measure the clicks you guys know you can measure the clicks on the website and all that but it's on the website and all that but it's on the website and all that but it's hard to know exactly how many of these hard to know exactly how many of these hard to know exactly how many of these people showed up or watched online or people showed up or watched online or people showed up or watched online or whatever but and it but you can measure whatever but and it but you can measure whatever but and it but you can measure some things and so in my mind you helped some things and so in my mind you helped some things and so in my mind you helped us really grow that and we did see some us really grow that and we did see some us really grow that and we did see some success from it we get people all the success from it we get people all the success from it we get people all the time now how did you find us Google time now how did you find us Google time now how did you find us Google website you know like that's that is website you know like that's that is website you know like that's that is growing like invited from another person growing like invited from another person growing like invited from another person is still probably the biggest but man is still probably the biggest but man is still probably the biggest but man it's it's one's shrinking while the it's it's one's shrinking while the it's it's one's shrinking while the other one's growing and so anyway he other one's growing and so anyway he other one's growing and so anyway he thought funny because he just doesn't thought funny because he just doesn't thought funny because he just doesn't live in this world he thought for sure live in this world he thought for sure live in this world he thought for sure I'd have picked something else on the I'd have picked something else on the I'd have picked something else on the list but I was like hey maybe maybe it's list but I was like hey maybe maybe it's list but I was like hey maybe maybe it's not but like if it's working even a not but like if it's working even a not but like if it's working even a fraction of what I think it is you're fraction of what I think it is you're fraction of what I think it is you're talking about that many more people talking about that many more people talking about that many more people through the doors every week as we're through the doors every week as we're through the doors every week as we're trying to help people find the way back trying to help people find the way back trying to help people find the way back to God I don't think there is anything to God I don't think there is anything to God I don't think there is anything you know it's been more significant last you know it's been more significant last you know it's been more significant last year but for someone like him that year but for someone like him that year but for someone like him that doesn't live in that world he just doesn't live in that world he just doesn't live in that world he just thought that was kind of funny like are thought that was kind of funny like are thought that was kind of funny like are you sure you sure one like I don't know you sure you sure one like I don't know you sure you sure one like I don't know like this over here you know something like this over here you know something like this over here you know something more tangible or whatever and I'm like I more tangible or whatever and I'm like I more tangible or whatever and I'm like I don't think so I think I don't know but don't think so I think I don't know but don't think so I think I don't know but if this is working a little bit like I

if this is working a little bit like I if this is working a little bit like I think it is this might have been the think it is this might have been the think it is this might have been the biggest factor and of course you guys biggest factor and of course you guys biggest factor and of course you guys were a huge part of it so thanks well were a huge part of it so thanks well were a huge part of it so thanks well thank you well thank you and you're thank you well thank you and you're thank you well thank you and you're welcome yeah it's our pleasure and welcome yeah it's our pleasure and welcome yeah it's our pleasure and pleasure speaking of being evangelist pleasure speaking of being evangelist pleasure speaking of being evangelist for missional marketing uh if you're for missional marketing uh if you're for missional marketing uh if you're listening to this podcast or you're listening to this podcast or you're listening to this podcast or you're watching on our YouTube channel we'd watching on our YouTube channel we'd watching on our YouTube channel we'd love for you to uh give us a thumbs up love for you to uh give us a thumbs up love for you to uh give us a thumbs up on YouTube leave us a comment uh and if on YouTube leave us a comment uh and if on YouTube leave us a comment uh and if you haven't left a rating review you haven't left a rating review you haven't left a rating review wherever you your favorite podcasting wherever you your favorite podcasting wherever you your favorite podcasting platform is make sure that you do that platform is make sure that you do that platform is make sure that you do that you know how the algorithms of the you know how the algorithms of the you know how the algorithms of the interwebs work and that will help more interwebs work and that will help more interwebs work and that will help more people find the content so share it with people find the content so share it with people find the content so share it with somebody maybe you need to share it with somebody maybe you need to share it with somebody maybe you need to share it with your pastor or your executive Pastor or your pastor or your executive Pastor or your pastor or your executive Pastor or other other other um uh volunteer leaders or Ministry um uh volunteer leaders or Ministry um uh volunteer leaders or Ministry leaders in your church leaders in your church leaders in your church um we appreciate Nick we appreciate um we appreciate Nick we appreciate um we appreciate Nick we appreciate those of you who have tuned into this those of you who have tuned into this those of you who have tuned into this week's episode and with that we're out week's episode and with that we're out week's episode and with that we're out of here of here of here thanks guys