Evaluating Church Multiplication vs. Church Growth | Patrick O'Connell of NewThing Network

in this episode i'm talking with patrick in this episode i'm talking with patrick o'connell now patrick works for new o'connell now patrick works for new o'connell now patrick works for new thing thing thing network new thing network was birthed network new thing network was birthed network new thing network was birthed out of out of out of community christian church in illinois community christian church in illinois community christian church in illinois right dave ferguson's church right dave ferguson's church right dave ferguson's church and uh this organization is incredible and uh this organization is incredible and uh this organization is incredible they work with they work with they work with churches all over the globe and they churches all over the globe and they churches all over the globe and they help help help network churches together and so it's network churches together and so it's network churches together and so it's it's pretty fascinating it's pretty fascinating it's pretty fascinating what patrick has to say we're actually what patrick has to say we're actually what patrick has to say we're actually talking about talking about talking about a lot of different things but one of the a lot of different things but one of the a lot of different things but one of the things that's that are going to stand things that's that are going to stand things that's that are going to stand out that you're going to really out that you're going to really out that you're going to really appreciate appreciate appreciate is the difference between multiplying is the difference between multiplying is the difference between multiplying churches versus church growth and it's churches versus church growth and it's churches versus church growth and it's fascinating you're gonna love this enjoy fascinating you're gonna love this enjoy fascinating you're gonna love this enjoy well hey patrick well hey patrick well hey patrick thanks for joining us today glad to have thanks for joining us today glad to have thanks for joining us today glad to have you on the podcast you on the podcast you on the podcast glad to be here jason thanks for glad to be here jason thanks for glad to be here jason thanks for inviting me yeah so inviting me yeah so inviting me yeah so you're with new thing network so talk to you're with new thing network so talk to you're with new thing network so talk to me a little bit about new thing what you me a little bit about new thing what you me a little bit about new thing what you do for them do for them do for them how they got started and uh what you how they got started and uh what you how they got started and uh what you guys been up to guys been up to guys been up to yeah we um i'm the global director yeah we um i'm the global director yeah we um i'm the global director and new thing is about 15 years old it and new thing is about 15 years old it and new thing is about 15 years old it began with community christian church in began with community christian church in began with community christian church in chicagoland where dave chicagoland where dave chicagoland where dave and john ferguson dave is our lead and john ferguson dave is our lead and john ferguson dave is our lead pastor but dave and john started the pastor but dave and john started the pastor but dave and john started the church about 30 years ago church about 30 years ago church about 30 years ago they started the church with this idea they started the church with this idea they started the church with this idea of being a multiplying church at some of being a multiplying church at some of being a multiplying church at some point and of course the first iteration point and of course the first iteration point and of course the first iteration of that was of that was of that was multi-site and uh then we began multi-site and uh then we began multi-site and uh then we began community began to plant churches and uh community began to plant churches and uh community began to plant churches and uh that initial kind of origin of new thing

that initial kind of origin of new thing that initial kind of origin of new thing was as people left was as people left was as people left community to go plant churches it was community to go plant churches it was community to go plant churches it was kind of the question how do we stay and kind of the question how do we stay and kind of the question how do we stay and network with one another network with one another network with one another and um we've realized through and um we've realized through and um we've realized through the life of new thing that relationships the life of new thing that relationships the life of new thing that relationships are really important and are really important and are really important and so um they're really at the core of what so um they're really at the core of what so um they're really at the core of what we're doing we're doing we're doing i could certainly explain that a little i could certainly explain that a little i could certainly explain that a little bit if you're interested but bit if you're interested but bit if you're interested but the idea is um the idea is um the idea is um since that since that small kind of since that since that small kind of since that since that small kind of origin at community here in chicagoland origin at community here in chicagoland origin at community here in chicagoland new thing continues to grow new thing continues to grow new thing continues to grow we're in about 40 countries uh right now we're in about 40 countries uh right now we're in about 40 countries uh right now and uh and uh and uh working with leaders all over the world working with leaders all over the world working with leaders all over the world to catalyze movements of reproducing to catalyze movements of reproducing to catalyze movements of reproducing churches that's what we do we are not a churches that's what we do we are not a churches that's what we do we are not a denomination denomination denomination um we're not even churches aligned um we're not even churches aligned um we're not even churches aligned around theology around theology around theology we are kind of classic orthodox we are kind of classic orthodox we are kind of classic orthodox evangelical evangelical evangelical but what we try to do is paint this but what we try to do is paint this but what we try to do is paint this picture of being picture of being picture of being friends on mission and so if you and i friends on mission and so if you and i friends on mission and so if you and i are friends are friends are friends and we're on the mission of jesus and we're on the mission of jesus and we're on the mission of jesus together um together um together um we're absolutely for each other we want we're absolutely for each other we want we're absolutely for each other we want to see each other to see each other to see each other win we want to see each other thrive and win we want to see each other thrive and win we want to see each other thrive and uh so we do our best to keep it about uh so we do our best to keep it about uh so we do our best to keep it about friends on mission and moving the friends on mission and moving the friends on mission and moving the mission of god forward mission of god forward mission of god forward primarily through church planting okay primarily through church planting okay primarily through church planting okay so so tell me a little bit like what's so so tell me a little bit like what's so so tell me a little bit like what's the difference between the difference between the difference between church multiplication versus church church multiplication versus church church multiplication versus church growth growth growth yeah that's the classic question isn't yeah that's the classic question isn't yeah that's the classic question isn't it jason and so it jason and so it jason and so neither i don't see i neither i don't see i neither i don't see i i don't see either of them uh existing

i don't see either of them uh existing i don't see either of them uh existing without the other without the other without the other but uh let me just say that but uh let me just say that but uh let me just say that church growth has really been the mantra church growth has really been the mantra church growth has really been the mantra of the church in the west and that is of the church in the west and that is of the church in the west and that is how do we create an environment where how do we create an environment where how do we create an environment where more people come and experience more people come and experience more people come and experience the the gospel experience community the the gospel experience community the the gospel experience community experience what it looks like to live experience what it looks like to live experience what it looks like to live life on mission with jesus life on mission with jesus life on mission with jesus um and and the idea is that that let's um and and the idea is that that let's um and and the idea is that that let's do that do that do that bitter bigger better and faster as we bitter bigger better and faster as we bitter bigger better and faster as we all do in the west right all do in the west right all do in the west right but there's another there's another very but there's another there's another very but there's another there's another very very important part of the mission of very important part of the mission of very important part of the mission of jesus in the world and that is jesus in the world and that is jesus in the world and that is multiplication multiplication multiplication and so if you think about the gospels and so if you think about the gospels and so if you think about the gospels you think about what jesus actually says you think about what jesus actually says you think about what jesus actually says to his followers if you look at the to his followers if you look at the to his followers if you look at the first first first church what you have there is a very church what you have there is a very church what you have there is a very small small small group of people discipling other groups group of people discipling other groups group of people discipling other groups of small groups of people of small groups of people of small groups of people and that leading to more and more and that leading to more and more and that leading to more and more movement so movement so movement so jesus didn't ask us to plant churches he jesus didn't ask us to plant churches he jesus didn't ask us to plant churches he asked us to make disciples asked us to make disciples asked us to make disciples and so church growth is the result i and so church growth is the result i and so church growth is the result i hope hope hope of really good discipleship the of really good discipleship the of really good discipleship the challenge we have challenge we have challenge we have is when we do it in reverse and that's is when we do it in reverse and that's is when we do it in reverse and that's maybe some of the challenge we see maybe some of the challenge we see maybe some of the challenge we see in the north american context in the in the north american context in the in the north american context in the west and you don't know me well enough west and you don't know me well enough west and you don't know me well enough i'm not being a naysayer on anything i'm i'm not being a naysayer on anything i'm i'm not being a naysayer on anything i'm not a critic of anything because god not a critic of anything because god not a critic of anything because god uses it all uses it all uses it all but i am saying that in the in the but i am saying that in the in the but i am saying that in the in the western context and because i get to western context and because i get to western context and because i get to wear wear wear my global hat a bit what i see us

my global hat a bit what i see us my global hat a bit what i see us doing is is generally or have in the doing is is generally or have in the doing is is generally or have in the past past past gone with the high growth mentality gone with the high growth mentality gone with the high growth mentality where if we're going to see the church where if we're going to see the church where if we're going to see the church thrive thrive thrive we need to also focus on multiplication we need to also focus on multiplication we need to also focus on multiplication and so new thing focuses in this and so new thing focuses in this and so new thing focuses in this space of helping churches create space of helping churches create space of helping churches create cultures of multiplication cultures of multiplication cultures of multiplication so that as a result more churches are so that as a result more churches are so that as a result more churches are planted planted planted well so let's go into there how can a well so let's go into there how can a well so let's go into there how can a church church church move towards multiplication here in the move towards multiplication here in the move towards multiplication here in the u.s u.s u.s yeah i think it's really about adopting yeah i think it's really about adopting yeah i think it's really about adopting this this this posture um where we are posture um where we are posture um where we are ascent people it's really beginning with ascent people it's really beginning with ascent people it's really beginning with kind of our heart for jesus where are we kind of our heart for jesus where are we kind of our heart for jesus where are we with jesus and with jesus and with jesus and and the goal of a church is not just to and the goal of a church is not just to and the goal of a church is not just to collect and gather collect and gather collect and gather the goal of a church is to collect and the goal of a church is to collect and the goal of a church is to collect and gather to scatter gather to scatter gather to scatter i mean we are we are we are to to plant i mean we are we are we are to to plant i mean we are we are we are to to plant seeds of the gospel to the nations right seeds of the gospel to the nations right seeds of the gospel to the nations right it's the big picture it's the big picture it's the big picture and when a church spends a lot of time and when a church spends a lot of time and when a church spends a lot of time and energy and energy and energy and resources only gathering gathering and resources only gathering gathering and resources only gathering gathering gathering gathering it's it's like it's gathering gathering it's it's like it's gathering gathering it's it's like it's misfiring on the whole mission misfiring on the whole mission misfiring on the whole mission uh the analogy i used to use or i do use uh the analogy i used to use or i do use uh the analogy i used to use or i do use i was in the military i was in the military i was in the military and um the military is a great and um the military is a great and um the military is a great organization organization organization and i'm not not suggesting that the and i'm not not suggesting that the and i'm not not suggesting that the church be like the military in any sense church be like the military in any sense church be like the military in any sense but this is just an illustration but this is just an illustration but this is just an illustration what the military does is a great job of

what the military does is a great job of what the military does is a great job of taking taking taking people and training them for a mission people and training them for a mission people and training them for a mission so when you graduate from basic training so when you graduate from basic training so when you graduate from basic training for when from your equipping stage in for when from your equipping stage in for when from your equipping stage in the military you know exactly what your the military you know exactly what your the military you know exactly what your mission is you know exactly your gifting mission is you know exactly your gifting mission is you know exactly your gifting and you're exactly equipped to do that and you're exactly equipped to do that and you're exactly equipped to do that and it's similar i think and it's similar i think and it's similar i think it needs to be similar in the church and it needs to be similar in the church and it needs to be similar in the church and so multiplication then what we do is we so multiplication then what we do is we so multiplication then what we do is we we suggest that multiplication in a we suggest that multiplication in a we suggest that multiplication in a church church church needs to begin to happen at every level needs to begin to happen at every level needs to begin to happen at every level every single level every single level every single level so um hospitality leaders must be so um hospitality leaders must be so um hospitality leaders must be multiplied multiplied multiplied children's workers must be multiplied children's workers must be multiplied children's workers must be multiplied small group small group small group leaders must be multiplied lead pastors leaders must be multiplied lead pastors leaders must be multiplied lead pastors must be multiplied must be multiplied must be multiplied and so so we at new thing we focus on on and so so we at new thing we focus on on and so so we at new thing we focus on on this idea where this idea where this idea where we are going to build cultures where we are going to build cultures where we are going to build cultures where multiplication multiplication multiplication is not only taught but caught is not only taught but caught is not only taught but caught uh and it's celebrated so that it uh and it's celebrated so that it uh and it's celebrated so that it becomes it becomes becomes it becomes becomes it becomes in the air of the local church because in the air of the local church because in the air of the local church because unless the church is being unless the church is being unless the church is being is multiplying um our suggestion is that is multiplying um our suggestion is that is multiplying um our suggestion is that it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not thriving it's not being all it's not thriving it's not being all it's not thriving it's not being all that it can be that it can be that it can be so so what would you say to a church so so what would you say to a church so so what would you say to a church then that's then that's then that's uh thinking about playing so they're uh thinking about playing so they're uh thinking about playing so they're thinking about planning the church and i thinking about planning the church and i thinking about planning the church and i guess it doesn't matter guess it doesn't matter guess it doesn't matter you probably speak into this you don't you probably speak into this you don't you probably speak into this you don't have to maybe you do have to maybe you do have to maybe you do you don't have to get to a certain size you don't have to get to a certain size you don't have to get to a certain size in terms of people or budgets in terms of people or budgets in terms of people or budgets or even locations but what would you say or even locations but what would you say or even locations but what would you say to a church that's going

to a church that's going to a church that's going huh yeah we probably should take this huh yeah we probably should take this huh yeah we probably should take this pretty seriously how do we pretty seriously how do we pretty seriously how do we how do we go up beyond ourselves and how do we go up beyond ourselves and how do we go up beyond ourselves and plan a church like what does that look plan a church like what does that look plan a church like what does that look like yeah like yeah like yeah it's a great question i mean uh first of it's a great question i mean uh first of it's a great question i mean uh first of all all all spend lots of time in prayer and fasting spend lots of time in prayer and fasting spend lots of time in prayer and fasting and make sure it's something that god and make sure it's something that god and make sure it's something that god has called you to do has called you to do has called you to do all right number two is look at the life all right number two is look at the life all right number two is look at the life of jesus of jesus of jesus and jesus pours into the few and jesus pours into the few and jesus pours into the few to reach the many number three to reach the many number three to reach the many number three is i suggest that if you want to know if is i suggest that if you want to know if is i suggest that if you want to know if you are really you are really you are really if your church is working quote unquote if your church is working quote unquote if your church is working quote unquote try to plant the church you will know if try to plant the church you will know if try to plant the church you will know if you are evangelizing you are evangelizing you are evangelizing you know if you are discipling you will you know if you are discipling you will you know if you are discipling you will know if people are know if people are know if people are on mission or not when you try to plant on mission or not when you try to plant on mission or not when you try to plant the church the church the church so to your question i think it's okay so to your question i think it's okay so to your question i think it's okay for any church to start small for any church to start small for any church to start small start with small so we would suggest if start with small so we would suggest if start with small so we would suggest if you were a church planter jason and you you were a church planter jason and you you were a church planter jason and you were were were you were working with one of our you were working with one of our you were working with one of our networks we might suggest that the first networks we might suggest that the first networks we might suggest that the first thing you do is launch a small thing you do is launch a small thing you do is launch a small community of people in your living room community of people in your living room community of people in your living room uh just begin to prayer and uh just begin to prayer and uh just begin to prayer and worship and and read scripture together worship and and read scripture together worship and and read scripture together and then as that grew maybe you you uh and then as that grew maybe you you uh and then as that grew maybe you you uh you step into a local school auditorium you step into a local school auditorium you step into a local school auditorium and begin to meet and begin to meet and begin to meet there and then once you've got one there and then once you've got one there and then once you've got one service underway service underway service underway maybe you reproduce a second service in maybe you reproduce a second service in maybe you reproduce a second service in a short period of time a short period of time a short period of time once you're doing that then you maybe once you're doing that then you maybe once you're doing that then you maybe multiply out a new location multiply out a new location multiply out a new location it's it's building on the small

it's it's building on the small it's it's building on the small i often suggest to church leaders that i often suggest to church leaders that i often suggest to church leaders that if you can if you can if you can show me a leader who has show me a leader who has show me a leader who has started a small group and where 50 started a small group and where 50 started a small group and where 50 of those people in that small group have of those people in that small group have of those people in that small group have found their way back to god found their way back to god found their way back to god in that group that leader can lead at in that group that leader can lead at in that group that leader can lead at any scale any scale any scale it's just about scale to your point it's it's just about scale to your point it's it's just about scale to your point it's not about bigger or better not about bigger or better not about bigger or better you don't need the building you don't you don't need the building you don't you don't need the building you don't need the you don't need the fog machines need the you don't need the fog machines need the you don't need the fog machines per se per se per se those are all nice to have and i you those are all nice to have and i you those are all nice to have and i you know there's a there's a place for all know there's a there's a place for all know there's a there's a place for all that that that but if you it's about scaling and and i but if you it's about scaling and and i but if you it's about scaling and and i think what think what think what what i would challenge my my friends in what i would challenge my my friends in what i would challenge my my friends in north america to think about north america to think about north america to think about is what am i doing as a church leader is what am i doing as a church leader is what am i doing as a church leader to equip the people in my church to equip the people in my church to equip the people in my church to go out and scatter seeds of the to go out and scatter seeds of the to go out and scatter seeds of the gospel to start new gospel to start new gospel to start new things so to speak yeah that's things so to speak yeah that's things so to speak yeah that's interesting because when i think about interesting because when i think about interesting because when i think about most churches here they uh most churches here they uh most churches here they uh and if you stop and step back if the and if you stop and step back if the and if you stop and step back if the church is growing church is growing church is growing there's a reason they probably have a there's a reason they probably have a there's a reason they probably have a really good lead pastor who can deliver really good lead pastor who can deliver really good lead pastor who can deliver a great message they got a good a great message they got a good a great message they got a good children's ministry they probably are children's ministry they probably are children's ministry they probably are very friendly very friendly very friendly they got a great welcoming team you know they got a great welcoming team you know they got a great welcoming team you know it's just a good vibe going on it's just a good vibe going on it's just a good vibe going on uh and then i think the mentality would uh and then i think the mentality would uh and then i think the mentality would then be well then be well then be well let's reproduce this so let's go add let's reproduce this so let's go add let's reproduce this so let's go add another campus another campus another another campus another campus another another campus another campus another campus another campus and get this campus another campus and get this campus another campus and get this preacher's word out in those other preacher's word out in those other preacher's word out in those other campuses

campuses campuses right which isn't a bad thing but what right which isn't a bad thing but what right which isn't a bad thing but what you're saying is no no you you kind of you're saying is no no you you kind of you're saying is no no you you kind of need to do need to do need to do maybe do both you've got to you can do maybe do both you've got to you can do maybe do both you've got to you can do that if if you're called to do that that if if you're called to do that that if if you're called to do that but you should be sending people to go but you should be sending people to go but you should be sending people to go plant and plant and plant and build over there uh as well is that build over there uh as well is that build over there uh as well is that something is that something is that something is that kind of the idea or do you feel like in kind of the idea or do you feel like in kind of the idea or do you feel like in north america we north america we north america we we tend to lean more on reproducing we tend to lean more on reproducing we tend to lean more on reproducing campuses of our church campuses of our church campuses of our church yeah i mean what um you've said it very yeah i mean what um you've said it very yeah i mean what um you've said it very very well very well very well uh and again in the in the effort to say uh and again in the in the effort to say uh and again in the in the effort to say that everything that that everything that that everything that the local church is doing is great i'm a the local church is doing is great i'm a the local church is doing is great i'm a huge fan of the local church so there's huge fan of the local church so there's huge fan of the local church so there's there's no bad churches in my vernacular there's no bad churches in my vernacular there's no bad churches in my vernacular what i think uh to suggest to your you what i think uh to suggest to your you what i think uh to suggest to your you know the illustration that you painted know the illustration that you painted know the illustration that you painted there jason is there jason is there jason is is um we have a mission though in the is um we have a mission though in the is um we have a mission though in the church church church and the mission is not just to gather and the mission is not just to gather and the mission is not just to gather and and and celebrate us the jesus and and and celebrate us the jesus and and and celebrate us the jesus said go go into the nations said go go into the nations said go go into the nations to proclaim the good news of the gospel to proclaim the good news of the gospel to proclaim the good news of the gospel and however a church is engaged and however a church is engaged and however a church is engaged in that missional effort is okay in my in that missional effort is okay in my in that missional effort is okay in my book book book i will suggest though that the best way i will suggest though that the best way i will suggest though that the best way to reach new people is with new works to reach new people is with new works to reach new people is with new works new gospel new gospel new gospel communities new churches being planted communities new churches being planted communities new churches being planted um and so um and so um and so the other the other point that you the other the other point that you the other the other point that you brought up that i could speak to brought up that i could speak to brought up that i could speak to is i think like any missionary in is i think like any missionary in is i think like any missionary in any culture we in the north american any culture we in the north american any culture we in the north american context

context context need to consider ourselves as need to consider ourselves as need to consider ourselves as missionaries we need to exegete this missionaries we need to exegete this missionaries we need to exegete this the culture and what we have in america the culture and what we have in america the culture and what we have in america what we have in north america what we have in north america what we have in north america is a culture that tends to be is a culture that tends to be is a culture that tends to be individualistic individualistic individualistic how does this help me how does this help how does this help me how does this help how does this help me how does this help my family my family my family what does this do for me that's fine what does this do for me that's fine what does this do for me that's fine it's a fair place to start and then we it's a fair place to start and then we it's a fair place to start and then we also have a consumeristic culture also have a consumeristic culture also have a consumeristic culture and so the the vernacular of church and so the the vernacular of church and so the the vernacular of church shopping shopping shopping you don't hear that too much in the rest you don't hear that too much in the rest you don't hear that too much in the rest of the world but in the us of the world but in the us of the world but in the us we hear that all the time and so i think we hear that all the time and so i think we hear that all the time and so i think the the the as you said the the intentions are as you said the the intentions are as you said the the intentions are always always always right i mean the intentions there are right i mean the intentions there are right i mean the intentions there are there's no pastor that woke up this there's no pastor that woke up this there's no pastor that woke up this morning morning morning and is doing it for the money and the and is doing it for the money and the and is doing it for the money and the fame and the fortune right fame and the fortune right fame and the fortune right because right right right or let's talk because right right right or let's talk because right right right or let's talk to them if they are um to them if they are um to them if they are um they're doing it because god's called they're doing it because god's called they're doing it because god's called them and they love jesus and they want them and they love jesus and they want them and they love jesus and they want to see more people come to know the lord to see more people come to know the lord to see more people come to know the lord but i think what we do and some of my but i think what we do and some of my but i think what we do and some of my global friends suggest this global friends suggest this global friends suggest this very gently um towards the the american very gently um towards the the american very gently um towards the the american church church church is we settle for good things is we settle for good things is we settle for good things and miss the great things and the great and miss the great things and the great and miss the great things and the great things things things are gospel movements our discipleship are gospel movements our discipleship are gospel movements our discipleship movements our movements of reproducing movements our movements of reproducing movements our movements of reproducing churches that are churches that are churches that are exploding and we've seen this in north exploding and we've seen this in north exploding and we've seen this in north american history in church history american history in church history american history in church history if you go back and look at methodism if you go back and look at methodism if you go back and look at methodism methodism methodism methodism was a movement it was a frontier was a movement it was a frontier was a movement it was a frontier movement that absolutely movement that absolutely movement that absolutely exploded in the united states in the in

exploded in the united states in the in exploded in the united states in the in the in the late um the in the late um the in the late um 18th and early 19th century but then 18th and early 19th century but then 18th and early 19th century but then what happened is that movement became what happened is that movement became what happened is that movement became stagnant and this is some of my stagnant and this is some of my stagnant and this is some of my methodist friends have told me this and methodist friends have told me this and methodist friends have told me this and helped me understand this helped me understand this helped me understand this because they tended to focus on the because they tended to focus on the because they tended to focus on the growth and the institutional growth and the institutional growth and the institutional aspects of the movement rather than aspects of the movement rather than aspects of the movement rather than letting it go letting it go letting it go um so i i would say those are some of um so i i would say those are some of um so i i would say those are some of our our our those are some of the things that that those are some of the things that that those are some of the things that that we we try to keep front and center at we we try to keep front and center at we we try to keep front and center at new thing new thing new thing when we talk about the mission of jesus when we talk about the mission of jesus when we talk about the mission of jesus and the multiplication of his movement and the multiplication of his movement and the multiplication of his movement so you uh you get to do something that so you uh you get to do something that so you uh you get to do something that the rest of us the rest of us the rest of us really don't get an opportunity to do really don't get an opportunity to do really don't get an opportunity to do and that is you're talking with churches and that is you're talking with churches and that is you're talking with churches all around the globe all around the globe all around the globe yeah it's a privilege and an honor and yeah it's a privilege and an honor and yeah it's a privilege and an honor and i'm i'm humbled by it i'm i'm humbled by it i'm i'm humbled by it so what are those kind of what's going so what are those kind of what's going so what are those kind of what's going on what's being talked about on what's being talked about on what's being talked about these days around the globe yeah i think these days around the globe yeah i think these days around the globe yeah i think oh gosh it's a good question let me keep oh gosh it's a good question let me keep oh gosh it's a good question let me keep it short and sweet for you it short and sweet for you it short and sweet for you um covid has presented um covid has presented um covid has presented um incredible challenges i i don't want um incredible challenges i i don't want um incredible challenges i i don't want to to to i don't want to miss that and i want to i don't want to miss that and i want to i don't want to miss that and i want to lament with lament with lament with a lot of leaders across the world who a lot of leaders across the world who a lot of leaders across the world who have had a really hard time with it have had a really hard time with it have had a really hard time with it i've been on calls with pastors who have i've been on calls with pastors who have i've been on calls with pastors who have been in tears about it been in tears about it been in tears about it just not knowing what to do what's going just not knowing what to do what's going just not knowing what to do what's going to happen to their church not having the to happen to their church not having the to happen to their church not having the tools tools tools um not having the digital presence i um not having the digital presence i um not having the digital presence i mean i've been in every kind of mean i've been in every kind of mean i've been in every kind of conversation conversation conversation so innumerable challenges with coven so innumerable challenges with coven so innumerable challenges with coven but it's also the greatest opportunity

but it's also the greatest opportunity but it's also the greatest opportunity that any of us will ever live through that any of us will ever live through that any of us will ever live through and here's why i say that and here's why i say that and here's why i say that the whole globe speaking of the global the whole globe speaking of the global the whole globe speaking of the global church church church is going through the same crisis it's is going through the same crisis it's is going through the same crisis it's never happened before never happened before never happened before it's never been happened before you it's never been happened before you it's never been happened before you might suggest maybe a world war might suggest maybe a world war might suggest maybe a world war could have been like that but the global could have been like that but the global could have been like that but the global church has never gone through a crisis church has never gone through a crisis church has never gone through a crisis like this together i can like this together i can like this together i can talk to a leader in kenya and hear the talk to a leader in kenya and hear the talk to a leader in kenya and hear the same challenges same challenges same challenges of from them about leading in covet as i of from them about leading in covet as i of from them about leading in covet as i do if somebody in phoenix arizona do if somebody in phoenix arizona do if somebody in phoenix arizona doesn't matter so we're all going doesn't matter so we're all going doesn't matter so we're all going through the same storm but we're going through the same storm but we're going through the same storm but we're going through it in different through it in different through it in different boats that's the way that we've been boats that's the way that we've been boats that's the way that we've been talking about it so imagine talking about it so imagine talking about it so imagine we're all on the sea and it's all raging we're all on the sea and it's all raging we're all on the sea and it's all raging and the waves are and the waves are and the waves are and there's more storm clouds ahead and there's more storm clouds ahead and there's more storm clouds ahead because we don't know what's going to because we don't know what's going to because we don't know what's going to happen happen happen and you're in your boat and i'm in my and you're in your boat and i'm in my and you're in your boat and i'm in my boat boat boat let's help each other let's call out to let's help each other let's call out to let's help each other let's call out to each other let's tie up each other let's tie up each other let's tie up let's get a little bit closer so i've let's get a little bit closer so i've let's get a little bit closer so i've actually seen leaders actually seen leaders actually seen leaders much more open to reimagining much more open to reimagining much more open to reimagining what the church is the expression of the what the church is the expression of the what the church is the expression of the church church church i've i've spoken to some church leaders i've i've spoken to some church leaders i've i've spoken to some church leaders in europe who say hey in europe who say hey in europe who say hey we are going to take the emphasis off we are going to take the emphasis off we are going to take the emphasis off sunday morning sunday morning sunday morning so that we can multiply disciples and so that we can multiply disciples and so that we can multiply disciples and i'm like wow i'm like wow i'm like wow tell me more about that like it's so tell me more about that like it's so tell me more about that like it's so radical to think about that radical to think about that radical to think about that but if you're if you're a leader in you but if you're if you're a leader in you but if you're if you're a leader in you know birmingham know birmingham know birmingham england you are you are you are leading england you are you are you are leading england you are you are you are leading in a post-christian in a post-christian in a post-christian a post-modern coveted context a post-modern coveted context a post-modern coveted context if you are not willing to reimagine and if you are not willing to reimagine and if you are not willing to reimagine and shift your paradigms shift your paradigms shift your paradigms you're going to be guilty of insanity

you're going to be guilty of insanity you're going to be guilty of insanity of trying to do the same thing to of trying to do the same thing to of trying to do the same thing to achieve different results achieve different results achieve different results and so i would say to your question and so i would say to your question and so i would say to your question jason jason jason that the global church is open like that the global church is open like that the global church is open like never before never before never before to a conversation about how do we to a conversation about how do we to a conversation about how do we actually actually actually realize kind of the first corinthians 12 realize kind of the first corinthians 12 realize kind of the first corinthians 12 or ephesians or ephesians or ephesians 4 or john 17 idea of 4 or john 17 idea of 4 or john 17 idea of unity about working together about being unity about working together about being unity about working together about being friends on mission about helping friends on mission about helping friends on mission about helping each other and that has been so each other and that has been so each other and that has been so extraordinary it's complex extraordinary it's complex extraordinary it's complex but this idea that we are the body of but this idea that we are the body of but this idea that we are the body of christ christ christ yes diverse yes must express ourselves yes diverse yes must express ourselves yes diverse yes must express ourselves contextually contextually contextually what works in arizona doesn't work in what works in arizona doesn't work in what works in arizona doesn't work in chicago doesn't necessarily work in chicago doesn't necessarily work in chicago doesn't necessarily work in uganda uganda uganda however there are principles of the however there are principles of the however there are principles of the gospel about gospel about gospel about about gospel multiplication that we can about gospel multiplication that we can about gospel multiplication that we can learn from each other and so it's a learn from each other and so it's a learn from each other and so it's a spirit of togetherness spirit of togetherness spirit of togetherness that i've been picking up from the that i've been picking up from the that i've been picking up from the church uh around the world church uh around the world church uh around the world that's encouraging that's super that's encouraging that's super that's encouraging that's super encouraging because uh encouraging because uh encouraging because uh we are all on the same team and we have we are all on the same team and we have we are all on the same team and we have one mission one mission one mission and he gave us that mission how we go and he gave us that mission how we go and he gave us that mission how we go about doing that about doing that about doing that uh all and that you to your point is uh all and that you to your point is uh all and that you to your point is going to be different depending on where going to be different depending on where going to be different depending on where you are you are you are in the on on this planet uh and the in the on on this planet uh and the in the on on this planet uh and the other thing that i kind of other thing that i kind of other thing that i kind of wonder about is you know we're we're wonder about is you know we're we're wonder about is you know we're we're still in this pandemic

still in this pandemic still in this pandemic um lord willing we're coming out of this um lord willing we're coming out of this um lord willing we're coming out of this pandemic but that doesn't pandemic but that doesn't pandemic but that doesn't that means that things are going to that means that things are going to that means that things are going to things have changed and things are going things have changed and things are going things have changed and things are going to continue to change to continue to change to continue to change and so i kind of wonder what does that and so i kind of wonder what does that and so i kind of wonder what does that look like look like look like how do we do church after how do we do church after how do we do church after this whatever this define this this whatever this define this this whatever this define this and whatever that looks like the new and whatever that looks like the new and whatever that looks like the new reality that's so i hear that word reality that's so i hear that word reality that's so i hear that word there's a new reality it's still there's a new reality it's still there's a new reality it's still undefined undefined undefined but you know from from what you're but you know from from what you're but you know from from what you're learning and talking with churches and learning and talking with churches and learning and talking with churches and certainly certainly certainly you know at community christian church you know at community christian church you know at community christian church you know i'd be curious to know you know i'd be curious to know you know i'd be curious to know from your perspective how will church be from your perspective how will church be from your perspective how will church be done done done you kind of mentioned uh we can't just you kind of mentioned uh we can't just you kind of mentioned uh we can't just rely on the old rely on the old rely on the old ways of hey on sunday mornings we all ways of hey on sunday mornings we all ways of hey on sunday mornings we all gather gather gather i mean maybe that's still a thing that i mean maybe that's still a thing that i mean maybe that's still a thing that will probably continue to be a thing but will probably continue to be a thing but will probably continue to be a thing but we got to be we got to be we got to be we got to think different and there's we got to think different and there's we got to think different and there's different ways to connect with people different ways to connect with people different ways to connect with people outside of that outside of that outside of that come on come under one building come on come under one building come on come under one building what are you seeing in is is there a new what are you seeing in is is there a new what are you seeing in is is there a new shape or new reality that's starting to shape or new reality that's starting to shape or new reality that's starting to form yeah it's a great question jason form yeah it's a great question jason form yeah it's a great question jason um number one i think context is um number one i think context is um number one i think context is important here important here important here we i want to how do i frame this we're we i want to how do i frame this we're we i want to how do i frame this we're all learning new language all learning new language all learning new language um my suggestion is um my suggestion is um my suggestion is and my my my instinct is and i'm i'm and my my my instinct is and i'm i'm and my my my instinct is and i'm i'm just being prayerfully aware of what the just being prayerfully aware of what the just being prayerfully aware of what the lord's saying to me on this too and in lord's saying to me on this too and in lord's saying to me on this too and in my conversations with other leaders my conversations with other leaders my conversations with other leaders that this is an ice age and not just a that this is an ice age and not just a that this is an ice age and not just a winter winter winter and i know that can sound rather

and i know that can sound rather and i know that can sound rather pessimistic pessimistic pessimistic but i believe things have shifted but i believe things have shifted but i believe things have shifted tremendously for the church now tremendously for the church now tremendously for the church now one of the things we have to you know one of the things we have to you know one of the things we have to you know immediately check ourselves on is do we immediately check ourselves on is do we immediately check ourselves on is do we trust jesus trust jesus trust jesus even even when things shift and we even even when things shift and we even even when things shift and we should we should amen right we should should we should amen right we should should we should amen right we should um what we've been suggesting and i'd be um what we've been suggesting and i'd be um what we've been suggesting and i'd be happy to get your happy to get your happy to get your listeners this and make sure you get a listeners this and make sure you get a listeners this and make sure you get a copy of it we came up with a series of copy of it we came up with a series of copy of it we came up with a series of blog articles through the summer blog articles through the summer blog articles through the summer called the five shifts and i'll present called the five shifts and i'll present called the five shifts and i'll present them to you very quickly them to you very quickly them to you very quickly and if you want to drill down to any of and if you want to drill down to any of and if you want to drill down to any of them just let me know them just let me know them just let me know but we're suggesting that there are five but we're suggesting that there are five but we're suggesting that there are five shifts no matter where you are in the shifts no matter where you are in the shifts no matter where you are in the world world world as a church leader you've got to make as a church leader you've got to make as a church leader you've got to make number one number one number one you've got to move from criticizing you've got to move from criticizing you've got to move from criticizing to evaluating so it used to be to evaluating so it used to be to evaluating so it used to be we've figured out how to do big church we've figured out how to do big church we've figured out how to do big church if you don't do big church if you don't do big church if you don't do big church something's wrong with you or you're not something's wrong with you or you're not something's wrong with you or you're not doing it right doing it right doing it right that's critical evaluating is that's critical evaluating is that's critical evaluating is is big church actually making disciples is big church actually making disciples is big church actually making disciples of jesus yeah of jesus yeah of jesus yeah i mean is that really working so that's i mean is that really working so that's i mean is that really working so that's number one number one number one shift one shift two and this is right up shift one shift two and this is right up shift one shift two and this is right up your alley jason this is where we need your alley jason this is where we need your alley jason this is where we need organizations like yours we're organizations like yours we're organizations like yours we're suggesting that we need to move from suggesting that we need to move from suggesting that we need to move from informing uh to digitizing informing uh to digitizing informing uh to digitizing specifically digitalization we've been specifically digitalization we've been specifically digitalization we've been using this phrase i'm sure you're using using this phrase i'm sure you're using using this phrase i'm sure you're using it too it too it too fidget right it's this idea of the fidget right it's this idea of the fidget right it's this idea of the physical and the digital together

physical and the digital together physical and the digital together and so as leaders as a church leader and so as leaders as a church leader and so as leaders as a church leader i now must be cognizant i now must be cognizant i now must be cognizant and somewhat aware of how people are and somewhat aware of how people are and somewhat aware of how people are interacting online interacting online interacting online and digitally and using social media and digitally and using social media and digitally and using social media and it's more than just putting my and it's more than just putting my and it's more than just putting my content online content online content online it's about how do i engage those people it's about how do i engage those people it's about how do i engage those people relationally and i'm sure you could relationally and i'm sure you could relationally and i'm sure you could speak speak speak very specifically that but we think very specifically that but we think very specifically that but we think that's really really important that's really really important that's really really important i heard a really cool story about a i heard a really cool story about a i heard a really cool story about a pastor in uganda pastor in uganda pastor in uganda uh in her she she said if you had told uh in her she she said if you had told uh in her she she said if you had told me this is right when coveted started me this is right when coveted started me this is right when coveted started about a month into it about a month into it about a month into it she's like if you had told me that i she's like if you had told me that i she's like if you had told me that i would have a bunch of uh would have a bunch of uh would have a bunch of uh my leaders and parishioners from kampala my leaders and parishioners from kampala my leaders and parishioners from kampala uganda uganda uganda online doing small group 30 days ago i online doing small group 30 days ago i online doing small group 30 days ago i would have said would have said would have said never never never would that work and never never never would that work and never never never would that work and here she is doing these whatsapp groups here she is doing these whatsapp groups here she is doing these whatsapp groups and having and having and having more success than ever she could imagine more success than ever she could imagine more success than ever she could imagine digitally but she had made that shift in digitally but she had made that shift in digitally but she had made that shift in her head and it's really important and her head and it's really important and her head and it's really important and it's not just oh i got my sunday service it's not just oh i got my sunday service it's not just oh i got my sunday service up online up online up online i'm good to go we know that that's i'm good to go we know that that's i'm good to go we know that that's it yeah you can speak to that number it yeah you can speak to that number it yeah you can speak to that number three three three shift number three is from collecting to shift number three is from collecting to shift number three is from collecting to mobilizing mobilizing mobilizing this is to the question you asked me in this is to the question you asked me in this is to the question you asked me in the beginning instead of just collecting the beginning instead of just collecting the beginning instead of just collecting christians christians christians and putting them in ever bigger and putting them in ever bigger and putting them in ever bigger buildings and empowering them with ever buildings and empowering them with ever buildings and empowering them with ever bigger light shows bigger light shows bigger light shows again not trying to be um snarky there again not trying to be um snarky there again not trying to be um snarky there i'm saying that

i'm saying that i'm saying that i need to collect to mobilize the body i need to collect to mobilize the body i need to collect to mobilize the body to go back out to go back out to go back out um you will never get your uh um you will never get your uh um you will never get your uh an indian leader told me this this an indian leader told me this this an indian leader told me this this morning your harvest morning your harvest morning your harvest is directly related to the number of is directly related to the number of is directly related to the number of seeds you plant seeds you plant seeds you plant and so if you're a church leader and and so if you're a church leader and and so if you're a church leader and you're wondering huh all right i got the you're wondering huh all right i got the you're wondering huh all right i got the big building we've got the four big building we've got the four big building we've got the four services we've done the multi-site services we've done the multi-site services we've done the multi-site what's next what's next what's next send them into the send them into the send them into the send them into the send them into the send them into the fields scatter seeds fields scatter seeds fields scatter seeds and so that's the that's the third shift and so that's the that's the third shift and so that's the that's the third shift the fourth the fourth the fourth shift and i think the american audience shift and i think the american audience shift and i think the american audience is really wrestling with this one is we is really wrestling with this one is we is really wrestling with this one is we need to move from need to move from need to move from competing to collaboration competing to collaboration competing to collaboration now we don't say we compete with each now we don't say we compete with each now we don't say we compete with each other but other but other but churches indirectly compete with each churches indirectly compete with each churches indirectly compete with each other other other right we um you know we we try to get right we um you know we we try to get right we um you know we we try to get the best the best the best online presence we've got the bigger online presence we've got the bigger online presence we've got the bigger signs we've got signs we've got signs we've got more frequent services we've got the more frequent services we've got the more frequent services we've got the louder spirit like all that stuff louder spirit like all that stuff louder spirit like all that stuff fine but it's got to all be done in the fine but it's got to all be done in the fine but it's got to all be done in the spirit of collaboration spirit of collaboration spirit of collaboration john 17 unity the last prayer that jesus john 17 unity the last prayer that jesus john 17 unity the last prayer that jesus prayed for us prayed for us prayed for us was that our unity would be a witness to was that our unity would be a witness to was that our unity would be a witness to the world the world the world and so we need to shift this these are and so we need to shift this these are and so we need to shift this these are all mental shifts in our head all mental shifts in our head all mental shifts in our head from competing to collaboration and then from competing to collaboration and then from competing to collaboration and then the fourth the fifth and final shift is the fourth the fifth and final shift is the fourth the fifth and final shift is from from from addition to multiplication addition to multiplication addition to multiplication so i think what we have remember i said so i think what we have remember i said so i think what we have remember i said we settle for the good things we settle for the good things we settle for the good things rather than the great things i think

rather than the great things i think rather than the great things i think addition addition addition is a good thing multiplication is a is a good thing multiplication is a is a good thing multiplication is a great thing great thing great thing yeah it does and so that's what we're yeah it does and so that's what we're yeah it does and so that's what we're trying to do oh wow trying to do oh wow trying to do oh wow well said yeah for all of you out there well said yeah for all of you out there well said yeah for all of you out there listening and uh i'll listening and uh i'll listening and uh i'll we'll make sure to add this to the we'll make sure to add this to the we'll make sure to add this to the podcast so that's those are phenomenal podcast so that's those are phenomenal podcast so that's those are phenomenal and when i look at kind of the part we and when i look at kind of the part we and when i look at kind of the part we played i think that third point was played i think that third point was played i think that third point was planting seeds yeah there are more you planting seeds yeah there are more you planting seeds yeah there are more you can also plant digital seeds can also plant digital seeds can also plant digital seeds we call them digital seeds right so we call them digital seeds right so we call them digital seeds right so you're putting stuff out there that only you're putting stuff out there that only you're putting stuff out there that only god god god he's going to do something with that and he's going to do something with that and he's going to do something with that and that's his job our job is just to get that's his job our job is just to get that's his job our job is just to get the seeds out there the seeds out there the seeds out there you know so that's exactly and what what you know so that's exactly and what what you know so that's exactly and what what um you'll you'll find this just a really um you'll you'll find this just a really um you'll you'll find this just a really quick story i was on quick story i was on quick story i was on we did these coaching calls for we did these coaching calls for we did these coaching calls for pastors when coveted broken with our pastors when coveted broken with our pastors when coveted broken with our partners partners partners we had 1500 churches join these coaching we had 1500 churches join these coaching we had 1500 churches join these coaching calls i was calls i was calls i was i was flabbergasted that we had had that i was flabbergasted that we had had that i was flabbergasted that we had had that much much much we we just hit a nerve and that was a we we just hit a nerve and that was a we we just hit a nerve and that was a god thing but god thing but god thing but i can tell you jason the first few calls i can tell you jason the first few calls i can tell you jason the first few calls with some with some with some leaders myself included we were all leaders myself included we were all leaders myself included we were all wrestling with how wrestling with how wrestling with how quickly we needed to learn digital tools quickly we needed to learn digital tools quickly we needed to learn digital tools like we we i one time just flat out said like we we i one time just flat out said like we we i one time just flat out said to one of our groups i said look to one of our groups i said look to one of our groups i said look i know you don't want to learn zoom but i know you don't want to learn zoom but i know you don't want to learn zoom but you got to learn it now you got to learn it now you got to learn it now i know you don't want to mess with i know you don't want to mess with i know you don't want to mess with whatsapp but you got to learn it now whatsapp but you got to learn it now whatsapp but you got to learn it now i know that you don't want to mess with i know that you don't want to mess with i know that you don't want to mess with your website but you better find your website but you better find your website but you better find somebody that will somebody that will somebody that will because our digital presence and i'm not

because our digital presence and i'm not because our digital presence and i'm not just saying this because you're on the just saying this because you're on the just saying this because you're on the you know this is your call you know this is your call you know this is your call like we really mean this that digital like we really mean this that digital like we really mean this that digital space space space is is a field for the gospel yeah and is is a field for the gospel yeah and is is a field for the gospel yeah and um we need to do more than just show our um we need to do more than just show our um we need to do more than just show our services services services on sunday that's like it's got to be on sunday that's like it's got to be on sunday that's like it's got to be much broader and i much broader and i much broader and i i think the phrase is if i'm not using i think the phrase is if i'm not using i think the phrase is if i'm not using it correctly please correct me it correctly please correct me it correctly please correct me um digitalization is the world view um digitalization is the world view um digitalization is the world view where where where the digital environments where human the digital environments where human the digital environments where human beings live are also places of community beings live are also places of community beings live are also places of community and possible enrichment and people are and possible enrichment and people are and possible enrichment and people are doing relationships doing relationships doing relationships online and like what you and i are doing online and like what you and i are doing online and like what you and i are doing here this is all here this is all here this is all very very valuable for the cause of the very very valuable for the cause of the very very valuable for the cause of the gospel and we need to be really great at gospel and we need to be really great at gospel and we need to be really great at it it it yeah and in a sense it's going to sound yeah and in a sense it's going to sound yeah and in a sense it's going to sound weird but it's an answer to prayer weird but it's an answer to prayer weird but it's an answer to prayer for us we've been praying for years that for us we've been praying for years that for us we've been praying for years that churches would churches would churches would like the light bulb would turn on that like the light bulb would turn on that like the light bulb would turn on that they go huh they go huh they go huh yeah this google thing's for real we yeah this google thing's for real we yeah this google thing's for real we probably should figure it out probably should figure it out probably should figure it out you know uh and and there's that's a lot you know uh and and there's that's a lot you know uh and and there's that's a lot that's a long runway google's around yes that's a long runway google's around yes that's a long runway google's around yes turn around and uh you know turn around and uh you know turn around and uh you know people are searching like never before people are searching like never before people are searching like never before like just the search term on anxiety and like just the search term on anxiety and like just the search term on anxiety and i tell this to churches all the time i tell this to churches all the time i tell this to churches all the time just just just if you were to understand how many if you were to understand how many if you were to understand how many people are anxious and people are anxious and people are anxious and they're stressed and they're depressed they're stressed and they're depressed they're stressed and they're depressed and they're going through this stuff and and they're going through this stuff and and they're going through this stuff and if you if you if you they're googling they're looking for they're googling they're looking for they're googling they're looking for information it's kind of a diy type of information it's kind of a diy type of information it's kind of a diy type of thing they're trying to thing they're trying to thing they're trying to they're trying to get fed so they can they're trying to get fed so they can they're trying to get fed so they can figure out what how do i overcome this figure out what how do i overcome this figure out what how do i overcome this thing churches are no longer

thing churches are no longer thing churches are no longer are nowhere to be found in that space are nowhere to be found in that space are nowhere to be found in that space i'm going that's such a huge i'm going that's such a huge i'm going that's such a huge opportunity from just a a church you opportunity from just a a church you opportunity from just a a church you know planting of a seed know planting of a seed know planting of a seed to engagement to you know moving and to engagement to you know moving and to engagement to you know moving and moving the needle if you will and moving the needle if you will and moving the needle if you will and in our world it's all about making that in our world it's all about making that in our world it's all about making that digital connection so that digital connection so that digital connection so that human connection can be possible it can human connection can be possible it can human connection can be possible it can happen happen happen and it's not going to happen overnight and it's not going to happen overnight and it's not going to happen overnight and it may take a few clicks or and it may take a few clicks or and it may take a few clicks or that kind of thing we call it kind of a that kind of thing we call it kind of a that kind of thing we call it kind of a funnel conversion we're trying to funnel conversion we're trying to funnel conversion we're trying to convert people into convert people into convert people into the space where they can connect with a the space where they can connect with a the space where they can connect with a local church the local church local church the local church local church the local church is what we want people to get connected is what we want people to get connected is what we want people to get connected to not some to not some to not some you know certainly secular organization you know certainly secular organization you know certainly secular organization nothing wrong with that nothing wrong with that nothing wrong with that but we know that the local church is but we know that the local church is but we know that the local church is going to point them to the answer going to point them to the answer going to point them to the answer right now i can't agree more and i i right now i can't agree more and i i right now i can't agree more and i i think it's think it's think it's it's uh organizations like yours um it's uh organizations like yours um it's uh organizations like yours um [Music] [Music] [Music] we need this kind of leadership and we need this kind of leadership and we need this kind of leadership and platform like never before because we platform like never before because we platform like never before because we know know know you know business education government you know business education government you know business education government all of these all of these are online all of these all of these are online all of these all of these are online if you will and again if i'm not using if you will and again if i'm not using if you will and again if i'm not using the right terminology just the right terminology just the right terminology just correct me but the church we kind of correct me but the church we kind of correct me but the church we kind of have settle we've settled for the have settle we've settled for the have settle we've settled for the the good things oh we got our service the good things oh we got our service the good things oh we got our service online i've got an app online i've got an app online i've got an app um i've got a website fine yeah but um i've got a website fine yeah but um i've got a website fine yeah but that's that's that's just content and his content doesn't just content and his content doesn't just content and his content doesn't make a disciple make a disciple make a disciple a disciple needs we need that's where a disciple needs we need that's where a disciple needs we need that's where relationships are so integral to this relationships are so integral to this relationships are so integral to this and we can we make disciples on zoom i

and we can we make disciples on zoom i and we can we make disciples on zoom i don't know don't know don't know i mean at some point we probably need to i mean at some point we probably need to i mean at some point we probably need to sit in coffees together right sit in coffees together right sit in coffees together right but i know that you and i can have a but i know that you and i can have a but i know that you and i can have a really robust friendship and really robust friendship and really robust friendship and relationship on zoom relationship on zoom relationship on zoom and when we do get to meet in line uh and when we do get to meet in line uh and when we do get to meet in line uh dude get to meet in person or whatever dude get to meet in person or whatever dude get to meet in person or whatever it's going to be even better you know it's going to be even better you know it's going to be even better you know and so i think the church back to one of and so i think the church back to one of and so i think the church back to one of the questions you asked the questions you asked the questions you asked i think the church has realized and the i think the church has realized and the i think the church has realized and the more leaders i speak to more leaders i speak to more leaders i speak to that they realize that this virtual that they realize that this virtual that they realize that this virtual space is space is space is for real like it's a real space it's not for real like it's a real space it's not for real like it's a real space it's not just just just ah you know they're not here to hear me ah you know they're not here to hear me ah you know they're not here to hear me so it's not great so it's not great so it's not great no it's a great space it's a really no it's a great space it's a really no it's a great space it's a really great way great way great way and think about the ability to scale and think about the ability to scale and think about the ability to scale like you said we've got like you said we've got like you said we've got that community we've got watch parties that community we've got watch parties that community we've got watch parties going on we're saying get together with going on we're saying get together with going on we're saying get together with a couple of your friends a couple of your friends a couple of your friends and watch the service together or get and watch the service together or get and watch the service together or get together with a couple of your friends together with a couple of your friends together with a couple of your friends and go through some of the questions and go through some of the questions and go through some of the questions about the sermon that we put on our app about the sermon that we put on our app about the sermon that we put on our app i mean just trying to reimagine and i mean just trying to reimagine and i mean just trying to reimagine and refresh and rethink refresh and rethink refresh and rethink how we can engage digitally has been how we can engage digitally has been how we can engage digitally has been really profound in this season really profound in this season really profound in this season you know it yeah i mean there's so we you know it yeah i mean there's so we you know it yeah i mean there's so we could go forever could go forever could go forever because i'm i'm such a believer that because i'm i'm such a believer that because i'm i'm such a believer that digital can be the the the place where digital can be the the the place where digital can be the the the place where people can get connected people can get connected people can get connected um can you disciple them there i don't um can you disciple them there i don't um can you disciple them there i don't see why not see why not see why not i'm not sure who's doing it like to like i'm not sure who's doing it like to like i'm not sure who's doing it like to like oh yeah model that oh yeah model that oh yeah model that but when we know uh coming together in but when we know uh coming together in but when we know uh coming together in person person person is that's worked but we got to think is that's worked but we got to think is that's worked but we got to think differently and to your point we we need differently and to your point we we need differently and to your point we we need to be

to be to be digitally focused on going outward but i digitally focused on going outward but i digitally focused on going outward but i also have found it also have found it also have found it kind of this has been kind of a fun kind of this has been kind of a fun kind of this has been kind of a fun thing for our family than since i have thing for our family than since i have thing for our family than since i have two teenage boys so two teenage boys so two teenage boys so we have watched church on sunday and we have watched church on sunday and we have watched church on sunday and then we have this kind of like casual then we have this kind of like casual then we have this kind of like casual conversation about it conversation about it conversation about it well when we were going to church you well when we were going to church you well when we were going to church you know they were going to the students know they were going to the students know they were going to the students things and we were going to big people things and we were going to big people things and we were going to big people church and then church and then church and then we're done well now they drive their own we're done well now they drive their own we're done well now they drive their own car so we would never even really have a car so we would never even really have a car so we would never even really have a conversation about conversation about conversation about what just happened but in the context of what just happened but in the context of what just happened but in the context of our family room our family room our family room we're able to watch and then turn that we're able to watch and then turn that we're able to watch and then turn that thing off and go huh what'd you learn thing off and go huh what'd you learn thing off and go huh what'd you learn yeah we just had a comment we our pastor yeah we just had a comment we our pastor yeah we just had a comment we our pastor just talked about just talked about just talked about owning your faith versus like borrowing owning your faith versus like borrowing owning your faith versus like borrowing your faith right there's a your faith right there's a your faith right there's a completely owning your faith and and completely owning your faith and and completely owning your faith and and we're being called to own we're being called to own we're being called to own our faith and so i'm looking at my boys our faith and so i'm looking at my boys our faith and so i'm looking at my boys going how do you how are you owning your going how do you how are you owning your going how do you how are you owning your faith and they're going faith and they're going faith and they're going huh we just had a great dialogue about huh we just had a great dialogue about huh we just had a great dialogue about that that that that happened because of digital like we that happened because of digital like we that happened because of digital like we were able to watch were able to watch were able to watch now the question is going to be can then now the question is going to be can then now the question is going to be can then a church engage with somebody a church engage with somebody a church engage with somebody right back and forth that i mean that's right back and forth that i mean that's right back and forth that i mean that's discipling you know and you gotta discipling you know and you gotta discipling you know and you gotta figure that out but to me it's like we figure that out but to me it's like we figure that out but to me it's like we got this the best and brightest got this the best and brightest got this the best and brightest in the in the on the end you're seeing in the in the on the end you're seeing in the in the on the end you're seeing this on the planet this on the planet this on the planet figuring this out like they weren't figuring this out like they weren't figuring this out like they weren't really putting that much emphasis on it really putting that much emphasis on it really putting that much emphasis on it before before before kova now they are because they're forced kova now they are because they're forced kova now they are because they're forced to i i love this story jason and i think to i i love this story jason and i think to i i love this story jason and i think you know it reminds me uh what you're you know it reminds me uh what you're you know it reminds me uh what you're what you're challenging me even to think what you're challenging me even to think what you're challenging me even to think about is the paradigms

about is the paradigms about is the paradigms we need to be open in this season and we need to be open in this season and we need to be open in this season and this season has given us an opportunity this season has given us an opportunity this season has given us an opportunity to really evaluate our paradigms and to really evaluate our paradigms and to really evaluate our paradigms and um what are the sacred cows that we um what are the sacred cows that we um what are the sacred cows that we might be holding on to might be holding on to might be holding on to yeah um when i was in when i was in yeah um when i was in when i was in yeah um when i was in when i was in graduate school that we've eaten graduate school that we've eaten graduate school that we've eaten doing a theology degree we had an doing a theology degree we had an doing a theology degree we had an exercise exercise exercise once uh and it went something like this once uh and it went something like this once uh and it went something like this all right all right all right imagine you are now the leader of the imagine you are now the leader of the imagine you are now the leader of the church of england church of england church of england and this afternoon you lost all of your and this afternoon you lost all of your and this afternoon you lost all of your buildings buildings buildings you had no buildings left in the church you had no buildings left in the church you had no buildings left in the church of england what would you do of england what would you do of england what would you do and in a weird way we're living out that and in a weird way we're living out that and in a weird way we're living out that that case challenge that case challenge that case challenge and it's causing us i mean i'm wearing and it's causing us i mean i'm wearing and it's causing us i mean i'm wearing my new thing hat for this conversation my new thing hat for this conversation my new thing hat for this conversation i'm going to take that hat off i put on i'm going to take that hat off i put on i'm going to take that hat off i put on my community hat right now my community hat right now my community hat right now community christian church where dave community christian church where dave community christian church where dave ferguson is lead pastor ferguson is lead pastor ferguson is lead pastor um we have not met for in-person um we have not met for in-person um we have not met for in-person services since march services since march services since march and because of the crisis here in and because of the crisis here in and because of the crisis here in illinois and illinois and illinois and and the health you know we want to be and the health you know we want to be and the health you know we want to be safety first and all those things safety first and all those things safety first and all those things we we are not planning on meeting for we we are not planning on meeting for we we are not planning on meeting for the rest of this calendar year the rest of this calendar year the rest of this calendar year and we are being forced to challenge and we are being forced to challenge and we are being forced to challenge some some some underlying assumptions and shift underlying assumptions and shift underlying assumptions and shift paradigms paradigms paradigms and think about those conversations that and think about those conversations that and think about those conversations that you and your son have you and your son have you and your son have your sons had in your living room after your sons had in your living room after your sons had in your living room after that service that service that service those are just as rich and important as those are just as rich and important as those are just as rich and important as anything we've ever done anything we've ever done anything we've ever done and so i think it's a really strong a and so i think it's a really strong a and so i think it's a really strong a strong strong strong illustration and what i want to continue illustration and what i want to continue illustration and what i want to continue to challenge myself and all of

to challenge myself and all of to challenge myself and all of uh your listeners to think about is uh your listeners to think about is uh your listeners to think about is challenging paradigms challenging paradigms challenging paradigms are just fine that's that's what good are just fine that's that's what good are just fine that's that's what good leadership is all about leadership is all about leadership is all about it's if this isn't working let's find it's if this isn't working let's find it's if this isn't working let's find some other way to do it and some other way to do it and some other way to do it and man this is the season to do that yeah man this is the season to do that yeah man this is the season to do that yeah you know i think god's given us this you know i think god's given us this you know i think god's given us this opportunity opportunity opportunity and to to really kind of kill those and to to really kind of kill those and to to really kind of kill those sacred cows sacred cows sacred cows yeah you know and and i i listen to like yeah you know and and i i listen to like yeah you know and and i i listen to like you guys and you guys and you guys and certainly north point they're doing the certainly north point they're doing the certainly north point they're doing the same thing we're just we're we're closed same thing we're just we're we're closed same thing we're just we're we're closed until a certain date until a certain date until a certain date okay well don't just let day by day go okay well don't just let day by day go okay well don't just let day by day go come by with y'all moving forward come by with y'all moving forward come by with y'all moving forward actually actually actually think about how how you relaunch think about how how you relaunch think about how how you relaunch and what would that look like you know and what would that look like you know and what would that look like you know and if you if you just relaunched the and if you if you just relaunched the and if you if you just relaunched the same thing same thing same thing you did back in february you probably you did back in february you probably you did back in february you probably missed a huge opportunity missed a huge opportunity missed a huge opportunity that god gave you you squandered it but that god gave you you squandered it but that god gave you you squandered it but if you relaunch in this new if you relaunch in this new if you relaunch in this new idea of going how are we going to idea of going how are we going to idea of going how are we going to continue to thrive continue to thrive continue to thrive and multiply right and and really build and multiply right and and really build and multiply right and and really build up disciples and send them out up disciples and send them out up disciples and send them out that's what we need to be focusing on that's what we need to be focusing on that's what we need to be focusing on and using digital as a and using digital as a and using digital as a as a means to doing that i actually i've as a means to doing that i actually i've as a means to doing that i actually i've talked to a couple churches they said talked to a couple churches they said talked to a couple churches they said we're trying we're trying we're trying to shift this idea that we have we're an to shift this idea that we have we're an to shift this idea that we have we're an online church with some online church with some online church with some physical locations maybe you're onto physical locations maybe you're onto physical locations maybe you're onto something there something there something there yeah and that's what communities doing yeah and that's what communities doing yeah and that's what communities doing that's exactly how we talk church as that's exactly how we talk church as that's exactly how we talk church as network or we are we are we're the network or we are we are we're the network or we are we are we're the church when church when church when a family like yours meets in a space and a family like yours meets in a space and a family like yours meets in a space and has a conversation about jesus has a conversation about jesus has a conversation about jesus um and owning your fate like that counts um and owning your fate like that counts um and owning your fate like that counts and so part of this

and so part of this and so part of this is shifting the scorecard which used to is shifting the scorecard which used to is shifting the scorecard which used to be just about be just about be just about nickels and noses right and again not nickels and noses right and again not nickels and noses right and again not saying that those aren't bad saying that those aren't bad saying that those aren't bad yeah but even thinking about okay what yeah but even thinking about okay what yeah but even thinking about okay what is what is the role of marketing is what is the role of marketing is what is the role of marketing uh in this post-covet environment is it uh in this post-covet environment is it uh in this post-covet environment is it just about getting people into a just about getting people into a just about getting people into a building again building again building again and maybe it is but maybe it doesn't and maybe it is but maybe it doesn't and maybe it is but maybe it doesn't maybe it could be maybe it could be maybe it could be more than that and that's what excites more than that and that's what excites more than that and that's what excites me yeah me yeah me yeah so so tell us a little bit like as we so so tell us a little bit like as we so so tell us a little bit like as we wrap this up uh wrap this up uh wrap this up uh new thing network uh local churches here new thing network uh local churches here new thing network uh local churches here in america how can they get connected to in america how can they get connected to in america how can they get connected to you guys you guys you guys what is it you're gonna do to help them what is it you're gonna do to help them what is it you're gonna do to help them and and uh what's up what's that even and and uh what's up what's that even and and uh what's up what's that even look like look like look like yeah new thing.org newthing.org so if yeah new thing.org newthing.org so if yeah new thing.org newthing.org so if you want to find out more about us just you want to find out more about us just you want to find out more about us just go to newthing.org go to newthing.org go to newthing.org uh we'll follow up with you there's a uh we'll follow up with you there's a uh we'll follow up with you there's a there's a communications card you can there's a communications card you can there's a communications card you can fill out be happy to do it fill out be happy to do it fill out be happy to do it we we basically help churches we we basically help churches we we basically help churches multiply at all levels so we have some multiply at all levels so we have some multiply at all levels so we have some online cohorts going again if you go to online cohorts going again if you go to online cohorts going again if you go to newthing.org you can find out all about newthing.org you can find out all about newthing.org you can find out all about this this this we also create collaborative spaces we also create collaborative spaces we also create collaborative spaces for churches to come together to do more for churches to come together to do more for churches to come together to do more so i'm very much interested in one of so i'm very much interested in one of so i'm very much interested in one of our specialties is we build our specialties is we build our specialties is we build networks we start small networks now for networks we start small networks now for networks we start small networks now for us a new us a new us a new network is four to six churches working network is four to six churches working network is four to six churches working together so i live in chicagoland together so i live in chicagoland together so i live in chicagoland we have done a lot of work to bring we have done a lot of work to bring we have done a lot of work to bring local churches together local churches together local churches together as friends on mission they come from as friends on mission they come from as friends on mission they come from diverse theological diverse theological diverse theological backgrounds uh diverse denominations but

backgrounds uh diverse denominations but backgrounds uh diverse denominations but we like each other we like each other we like each other and we're all for jesus and we want to and we're all for jesus and we want to and we're all for jesus and we want to make jesus famous make jesus famous make jesus famous in our city and so we work together in in our city and so we work together in in our city and so we work together in small clusters and small networks of small clusters and small networks of small clusters and small networks of churches churches churches to help each other do more around the to help each other do more around the to help each other do more around the four values of new thing four values of new thing four values of new thing and again newton.org has all of this and again newton.org has all of this and again newton.org has all of this there for you there for you there for you but what we found jason is that um but what we found jason is that um but what we found jason is that um one of my friends in india he leads one of my friends in india he leads one of my friends in india he leads india gospel league sam india gospel league sam india gospel league sam stevens he said that networks stevens he said that networks stevens he said that networks are the backbone of movement now the are the backbone of movement now the are the backbone of movement now the networks he was talking about are these networks he was talking about are these networks he was talking about are these small small small clusters of churches or whether they be clusters of churches or whether they be clusters of churches or whether they be big churches or medium big churches or medium big churches or medium churches or small churches doesn't much churches or small churches doesn't much churches or small churches doesn't much matter but these churches working matter but these churches working matter but these churches working together together together and if you go back and look at how the and if you go back and look at how the and if you go back and look at how the early church early church early church worked one of my favorite chapters in worked one of my favorite chapters in worked one of my favorite chapters in all of scripture is romans all of scripture is romans all of scripture is romans 16. go go back and read it it's rather 16. go go back and read it it's rather 16. go go back and read it it's rather boring because paul is just saying his boring because paul is just saying his boring because paul is just saying his farewell or his greetings to farewell or his greetings to farewell or his greetings to the church in rome but what you find the church in rome but what you find the church in rome but what you find there is a church that is diverse there is a church that is diverse there is a church that is diverse gentile and jew men and women gentile and jew men and women gentile and jew men and women big and small they meet in houses they big and small they meet in houses they big and small they meet in houses they meet in synagogues they meet in meet in synagogues they meet in meet in synagogues they meet in the street like it's just this a massive the street like it's just this a massive the street like it's just this a massive diversity and so diversity and so diversity and so we at new thing we bring churches and we at new thing we bring churches and we at new thing we bring churches and leaders together to help them do more leaders together to help them do more leaders together to help them do more than they could on their own than they could on their own than they could on their own in the spirit of collaboration for the in the spirit of collaboration for the in the spirit of collaboration for the kingdom cause kingdom cause kingdom cause not for our castles wow not for our castles wow not for our castles wow well i'll tell you what you've you've well i'll tell you what you've you've well i'll tell you what you've you've really challenged us so if you want to

really challenged us so if you want to really challenged us so if you want to make jesus make jesus make jesus famous and you're a jesus follower famous and you're a jesus follower famous and you're a jesus follower i suggest you get connected to new thing i suggest you get connected to new thing i suggest you get connected to new thing if you're not if you're not connected to if you're not if you're not connected to if you're not if you're not connected to a network a network a network yeah now's the time yeah now's the time yeah now's the time more than any probably any history of more than any probably any history of more than any probably any history of our you know of our country our you know of our country our you know of our country certainly here in the u.s now's the time certainly here in the u.s now's the time certainly here in the u.s now's the time to be locking arm in arm and to be locking arm in arm and to be locking arm in arm and and uh boy just from the standpoint of and uh boy just from the standpoint of and uh boy just from the standpoint of diversity diversity diversity all kinds of reasons why this is such an all kinds of reasons why this is such an all kinds of reasons why this is such an important important important aspect of our of the church right and of aspect of our of the church right and of aspect of our of the church right and of our faith yeah our faith yeah our faith yeah yeah great well patrick thank you very yeah great well patrick thank you very yeah great well patrick thank you very much very insightful uh great much very insightful uh great much very insightful uh great information information information and uh it was a pleasure having you on and uh it was a pleasure having you on and uh it was a pleasure having you on thanks for having me man this has been thanks for having me man this has been thanks for having me man this has been this has been a lot of fun thanks for this has been a lot of fun thanks for this has been a lot of fun thanks for having me having me having me you're welcome all right take care you you're welcome all right take care you you're welcome all right take care you too patrick too patrick too patrick thank you my friend oh my goodness we thank you my friend oh my goodness we thank you my friend oh my goodness we learned a ton learned a ton learned a ton about all that's going on if you want about all that's going on if you want about all that's going on if you want those five steps those five steps those five steps you want to check them out you want to you want to check them out you want to you want to check them out you want to learn more about that i learn more about that i learn more about that i highly encourage you to reach out to highly encourage you to reach out to highly encourage you to reach out to patrick have a conversation with patrick have a conversation with patrick have a conversation with new thing network these guys are onto new thing network these guys are onto new thing network these guys are onto something big something big something big okay and especially in this this day and okay and especially in this this day and okay and especially in this this day and age we're in the middle of covid and age we're in the middle of covid and age we're in the middle of covid and it's a new day we can't think about it's a new day we can't think about it's a new day we can't think about doing church the same way doing church the same way doing church the same way old what i call the sacred cows old what i call the sacred cows old what i call the sacred cows have to be gone and we have to look to have to be gone and we have to look to have to be gone and we have to look to the future on how we're going to connect the future on how we're going to connect the future on how we're going to connect with people with people with people and people far from god far from the and people far from god far from the and people far from god far from the church all that stuff church all that stuff church all that stuff patrick has some amazing insight a patrick has some amazing insight a patrick has some amazing insight a couple things that i think about couple things that i think about couple things that i think about and from our conversation um especially

and from our conversation um especially and from our conversation um especially when it comes when it comes when it comes to the idea that you have got to have a to the idea that you have got to have a to the idea that you have got to have a digital digital digital focus strategy and um there's a focus strategy and um there's a focus strategy and um there's a difference between just difference between just difference between just you know growing your church versus you know growing your church versus you know growing your church versus growing more more churches right growing more more churches right growing more more churches right but regardless you really want to be but regardless you really want to be but regardless you really want to be focused on a digital strategy to reach focused on a digital strategy to reach focused on a digital strategy to reach people people people far from god and so a couple things to far from god and so a couple things to far from god and so a couple things to take away number one take away number one take away number one your website content on your website your website content on your website your website content on your website speaks volumes into speaks volumes into speaks volumes into what you should be doing and how you can what you should be doing and how you can what you should be doing and how you can actually connect with people actually connect with people actually connect with people and we talked a little bit about that and we talked a little bit about that and we talked a little bit about that right but that's a big big right but that's a big big right but that's a big big strategy a big part of what you should strategy a big part of what you should strategy a big part of what you should be doing second thing would be then be doing second thing would be then be doing second thing would be then how are you connecting with people what how are you connecting with people what how are you connecting with people what is that that is that that is that that uh story you're sharing with people and uh story you're sharing with people and uh story you're sharing with people and what does that look like and so what does that look like and so what does that look like and so i encourage you to uh take some steps i encourage you to uh take some steps i encourage you to uh take some steps one step would be connect with new thing one step would be connect with new thing one step would be connect with new thing network network network absolutely do that second would be if absolutely do that second would be if absolutely do that second would be if you want to have a conversation with us you want to have a conversation with us you want to have a conversation with us about about about how you can get deeper in this space how you can get deeper in this space how you can get deeper in this space we'd love to talk with you and and share we'd love to talk with you and and share we'd love to talk with you and and share some ideas and strategies that we have some ideas and strategies that we have some ideas and strategies that we have implemented implemented implemented in churches all over the country and in churches all over the country and in churches all over the country and their online efforts their online efforts their online efforts to get better right uh fidget you've to get better right uh fidget you've to get better right uh fidget you've been hearing that word been hearing that word been hearing that word it's the physical and the digital kind it's the physical and the digital kind it's the physical and the digital kind of combined how do we do that of combined how do we do that of combined how do we do that how do we navigate that a lot of people how do we navigate that a lot of people how do we navigate that a lot of people are speaking and a lot of people are are speaking and a lot of people are are speaking and a lot of people are talking about that talking about that talking about that and certainly we're doing that here at and certainly we're doing that here at and certainly we're doing that here at missional marketing and it's a lot of missional marketing and it's a lot of missional marketing and it's a lot of fun because i think god's on to fun because i think god's on to fun because i think god's on to something big something big something big through us and uh it's just fun to be a through us and uh it's just fun to be a through us and uh it's just fun to be a part of that so love to talk with you part of that so love to talk with you part of that so love to talk with you until next time god bless

until next time god bless until next time god bless [Music]