Why Culture Matters in the Local Church | Jenni Catron

[Music] [Music] one of the other observations that I had one of the other observations that I had one of the other observations that I had both in my time in the corporate world both in my time in the corporate world both in my time in the corporate world and the music business and then in and the music business and then in and the music business and then in Ministry was that if teams weren't Ministry was that if teams weren't Ministry was that if teams weren't aligned aligned and unified and really aligned aligned and unified and really aligned aligned and unified and really compelled and passionate about the compelled and passionate about the compelled and passionate about the mission it didn't matter how good the mission it didn't matter how good the mission it didn't matter how good the mission was right you just were going to mission was right you just were going to mission was right you just were going to um stumble over each other until you um stumble over each other until you um stumble over each other until you really found that Unity of a healthy really found that Unity of a healthy really found that Unity of a healthy team my name is Bart Blair it is my team my name is Bart Blair it is my team my name is Bart Blair it is my privilege to welcome you to the privilege to welcome you to the privilege to welcome you to the 134th edition of this show we produced 134th edition of this show we produced 134th edition of this show we produced this podcast to help your church grow by this podcast to help your church grow by this podcast to help your church grow by leveraging digital marketing and leveraging digital marketing and leveraging digital marketing and effective Communications in the local effective Communications in the local effective Communications in the local church we're all about the local church church we're all about the local church church we're all about the local church at missional marketing our heartbeat is at missional marketing our heartbeat is at missional marketing our heartbeat is to help churches leverage their digital to help churches leverage their digital to help churches leverage their digital footprint to reach more people in their footprint to reach more people in their footprint to reach more people in their Community for Jesus and uh hopefully Community for Jesus and uh hopefully Community for Jesus and uh hopefully you're finding this content on the you're finding this content on the you're finding this content on the podcast to be helpful in helping you podcast to be helpful in helping you podcast to be helpful in helping you accomplish just that if you happen to be accomplish just that if you happen to be accomplish just that if you happen to be new to the show maybe you're tuning in new to the show maybe you're tuning in new to the show maybe you're tuning in for the first time uh we want to ask you for the first time uh we want to ask you for the first time uh we want to ask you to uh subscribe where wherever you're to uh subscribe where wherever you're to uh subscribe where wherever you're listening on your favorite podcasting listening on your favorite podcasting listening on your favorite podcasting platform whether that's Stitcher or platform whether that's Stitcher or platform whether that's Stitcher or Apple or Google podcasts or Spotify or Apple or Google podcasts or Spotify or Apple or Google podcasts or Spotify or whatever your whatever your app is make whatever your whatever your app is make whatever your whatever your app is make sure that you subscribe if you do that sure that you subscribe if you do that sure that you subscribe if you do that then you'll automatically be delivered then you'll automatically be delivered then you'll automatically be delivered each weekly episode directly to your each weekly episode directly to your each weekly episode directly to your device so that you don't have to go device so that you don't have to go device so that you don't have to go hunting for it it'll come right into hunting for it it'll come right into hunting for it it'll come right into your hand to your pocket into your your hand to your pocket into your your hand to your pocket into your mobile phone uh if you are watching on mobile phone uh if you are watching on mobile phone uh if you are watching on our YouTube channel make sure that you our YouTube channel make sure that you our YouTube channel make sure that you subscribe subscribe to the YouTube subscribe subscribe to the YouTube subscribe subscribe to the YouTube channel ring the bell so that you get channel ring the bell so that you get channel ring the bell so that you get notified of any future episodes that uh notified of any future episodes that uh notified of any future episodes that uh that we drop which we try to drop an that we drop which we try to drop an that we drop which we try to drop an episode about once a week every Friday

episode about once a week every Friday episode about once a week every Friday the last two episodes have been Audio the last two episodes have been Audio the last two episodes have been Audio Only so if you're watching on our Only so if you're watching on our Only so if you're watching on our YouTube channel the last two episodes YouTube channel the last two episodes YouTube channel the last two episodes were not there um but the next few will were not there um but the next few will were not there um but the next few will be so make sure that you subscribe so be so make sure that you subscribe so be so make sure that you subscribe so that you don't miss what we have coming that you don't miss what we have coming that you don't miss what we have coming up in the upcoming weeks now Jason and I up in the upcoming weeks now Jason and I up in the upcoming weeks now Jason and I um we really enjoy doing this podcast um we really enjoy doing this podcast um we really enjoy doing this podcast and we have welcomed some very esteemed and we have welcomed some very esteemed and we have welcomed some very esteemed church leaders um and creative artists church leaders um and creative artists church leaders um and creative artists and marketing professionals onto the and marketing professionals onto the and marketing professionals onto the show over the course of the last few show over the course of the last few show over the course of the last few years that we've been doing this podcast years that we've been doing this podcast years that we've been doing this podcast and from time to time we bring a guest and from time to time we bring a guest and from time to time we bring a guest onto the show not just because we want onto the show not just because we want onto the show not just because we want to uh educate and inform and help you as to uh educate and inform and help you as to uh educate and inform and help you as church leaders but we actually we we church leaders but we actually we we church leaders but we actually we we want to learn ourselves and this week's want to learn ourselves and this week's want to learn ourselves and this week's guest is well that's exactly what it is guest is well that's exactly what it is guest is well that's exactly what it is uh Our Guest this week is Jenny kaan and uh Our Guest this week is Jenny kaan and uh Our Guest this week is Jenny kaan and if you have been in the church space if you have been in the church space if you have been in the church space Church leadership space for sometime Church leadership space for sometime Church leadership space for sometime there's a good chance that you've heard there's a good chance that you've heard there's a good chance that you've heard Jenny on another podcast maybe you're Jenny on another podcast maybe you're Jenny on another podcast maybe you're familiar uh with some of the work that familiar uh with some of the work that familiar uh with some of the work that she has done she is a very special she has done she is a very special she has done she is a very special leader in the local church she is an leader in the local church she is an leader in the local church she is an expert on organizational culture now expert on organizational culture now expert on organizational culture now culture is something that's super culture is something that's super culture is something that's super important in the local church most important in the local church most important in the local church most people don't realize this I I actually people don't realize this I I actually people don't realize this I I actually get an opportunity to coach pastors get an opportunity to coach pastors get an opportunity to coach pastors quite a bit in the area of culture I quite a bit in the area of culture I quite a bit in the area of culture I wouldn't say that I can hold the candle wouldn't say that I can hold the candle wouldn't say that I can hold the candle to Jenny and her expertise but one thing to Jenny and her expertise but one thing to Jenny and her expertise but one thing that I often tell Church pastors church that I often tell Church pastors church that I often tell Church pastors church leaders is that your church is going to leaders is that your church is going to leaders is that your church is going to have a culture whether you're have a culture whether you're have a culture whether you're intentional about building that culture intentional about building that culture intentional about building that culture or not it's kind of like bacteria or not it's kind of like bacteria or not it's kind of like bacteria bacteria Bia grows everywhere and bacteria Bia grows everywhere and bacteria Bia grows everywhere and sometimes there's good bacteria kind you sometimes there's good bacteria kind you sometimes there's good bacteria kind you know the kind of bacteria that's in know the kind of bacteria that's in know the kind of bacteria that's in those things like yogurt and kombucha

those things like yogurt and kombucha those things like yogurt and kombucha just cucha have bacteria in it something just cucha have bacteria in it something just cucha have bacteria in it something like that it's fermented maybe there's like that it's fermented maybe there's like that it's fermented maybe there's bacteria I don't know I don't know okay bacteria I don't know I don't know okay bacteria I don't know I don't know okay I maybe I shouldn't have brought that up I maybe I shouldn't have brought that up I maybe I shouldn't have brought that up as an example um but sometimes there's as an example um but sometimes there's as an example um but sometimes there's bad bacteria bad bacteria that can cause bad bacteria bad bacteria that can cause bad bacteria bad bacteria that can cause things to go bad and church culture is things to go bad and church culture is things to go bad and church culture is just like that any organization uh the just like that any organization uh the just like that any organization uh the culture is just like that if you're culture is just like that if you're culture is just like that if you're intentional about the culture that intentional about the culture that intentional about the culture that you're trying to cultivate then you can you're trying to cultivate then you can you're trying to cultivate then you can have a culture that helps Propel your have a culture that helps Propel your have a culture that helps Propel your mission forward if you're not mission forward if you're not mission forward if you're not intentional about the culture that intentional about the culture that intentional about the culture that you're creating in your organization or you're creating in your organization or you're creating in your organization or in your church it will actually stifle in your church it will actually stifle in your church it will actually stifle the growth and the impact that your the growth and the impact that your the growth and the impact that your ministry can make and so today's ministry can make and so today's ministry can make and so today's conversation is one that we hope is conversation is one that we hope is conversation is one that we hope is really helpful for you as a church really helpful for you as a church really helpful for you as a church leader in assessing the culture in your leader in assessing the culture in your leader in assessing the culture in your church and taking some steps forward in church and taking some steps forward in church and taking some steps forward in building the kind of culture that's building the kind of culture that's building the kind of culture that's going to help you accomplish your going to help you accomplish your going to help you accomplish your mission as a local church which is mission as a local church which is mission as a local church which is ultimately to reach more people for ultimately to reach more people for ultimately to reach more people for Jesus and to disciple those people to be Jesus and to disciple those people to be Jesus and to disciple those people to be fully mature reproducing followers fully mature reproducing followers fully mature reproducing followers followers of Jesus themselves so um with followers of Jesus themselves so um with followers of Jesus themselves so um with that being said I don't want to delay that being said I don't want to delay that being said I don't want to delay this episode anymore but I do want to this episode anymore but I do want to this episode anymore but I do want to remind you of one thing and that is uh remind you of one thing and that is uh remind you of one thing and that is uh once a month Jason and I are producing once a month Jason and I are producing once a month Jason and I are producing an episode called burning questions and an episode called burning questions and an episode called burning questions and we want your questions we want your we want your questions we want your we want your questions we want your questions to answer on the show so you questions to answer on the show so you questions to answer on the show so you can send any questions that you might can send any questions that you might can send any questions that you might have about Communications marketing have about Communications marketing have about Communications marketing digital media social media websites SEO digital media social media websites SEO digital media social media websites SEO you name it sky the limit ask us the you name it sky the limit ask us the you name it sky the limit ask us the question you can send those questions to question you can send those questions to question you can send those questions to me at my email address which is b Blair me at my email address which is b Blair me at my email address which is b Blair missional marketing.com just put in the missional marketing.com just put in the missional marketing.com just put in the subject line that it's a question for

subject line that it's a question for subject line that it's a question for burning questions or a question for the burning questions or a question for the burning questions or a question for the podcast we'll add it to our list and podcast we'll add it to our list and podcast we'll add it to our list and maybe we will answer your question in an maybe we will answer your question in an maybe we will answer your question in an upcoming episode okay that's all I got upcoming episode okay that's all I got upcoming episode okay that's all I got for this week as far as our intro is for this week as far as our intro is for this week as far as our intro is concerned I'm now going to turn things concerned I'm now going to turn things concerned I'm now going to turn things over to the CEO of missional marketing over to the CEO of missional marketing over to the CEO of missional marketing Mr Jason Hamrock and here's our Mr Jason Hamrock and here's our Mr Jason Hamrock and here's our interview with Jenny interview with Jenny interview with Jenny K well hi Jenny welcome to the show glad K well hi Jenny welcome to the show glad K well hi Jenny welcome to the show glad to have you you here how are you doing to have you you here how are you doing to have you you here how are you doing today I am so GL so glad to be here we today I am so GL so glad to be here we today I am so GL so glad to be here we finally made this happen I think we've finally made this happen I think we've finally made this happen I think we've been trying to coordinate schedules been trying to coordinate schedules been trying to coordinate schedules mostly mine for a bit and so um I'm mostly mine for a bit and so um I'm mostly mine for a bit and so um I'm thrilled to be with you can I say can I thrilled to be with you can I say can I thrilled to be with you can I say can I say how long can I say out loud how long say how long can I say out loud how long say how long can I say out loud how long eight months it took eight months to get eight months it took eight months to get eight months it took eight months to get oh my god well seven okay I think I oh my god well seven okay I think I oh my god well seven okay I think I reached out for the first time because reached out for the first time because reached out for the first time because we because we we connected at the xpor we because we we connected at the xpor we because we we connected at the xpor seminar that was January wasn't it was seminar that was January wasn't it was seminar that was January wasn't it was that February that February that February February okay okay I'll give you one February okay okay I'll give you one February okay okay I'll give you one come on all right we're recording this come on all right we're recording this come on all right we're recording this in mid-september it did we we had dates in mid-september it did we we had dates in mid-september it did we we had dates on the calendar and then had to on the calendar and then had to on the calendar and then had to reschedule but uh it it's something that reschedule but uh it it's something that reschedule but uh it it's something that I've been anticipating a really long I've been anticipating a really long I've been anticipating a really long time personally I've been a a fan and a time personally I've been a a fan and a time personally I've been a a fan and a follower for a long time of a lot of follower for a long time of a lot of follower for a long time of a lot of content that you've done and coaching content that you've done and coaching content that you've done and coaching you've done so it was worth the well you've done so it was worth the well you've done so it was worth the well well actually I'm confident I'm well actually I'm confident I'm well actually I'm confident I'm confident it's going to be worth the confident it's going to be worth the confident it's going to be worth the chase yes it will be worth the worth the chase yes it will be worth the worth the chase yes it will be worth the worth the chase absolutely you guys are gracious chase absolutely you guys are gracious chase absolutely you guys are gracious I'm thrilled to be here and I'm glad I'm thrilled to be here and I'm glad I'm thrilled to be here and I'm glad we're making it happen because I'm I'm we're making it happen because I'm I'm we're making it happen because I'm I'm so grateful for all that you guys do and so grateful for all that you guys do and so grateful for all that you guys do and it's a privilege to be here well I I'm it's a privilege to be here well I I'm it's a privilege to be here well I I'm yeah thank you because I today's topic yeah thank you because I today's topic yeah thank you because I today's topic is is really near and dear to all three

is is really near and dear to all three is is really near and dear to all three of our hearts in what we get to do in of our hearts in what we get to do in of our hearts in what we get to do in serving the churches that we get to work serving the churches that we get to work serving the churches that we get to work with and that is centered around with and that is centered around with and that is centered around leadership and centered around helping leadership and centered around helping leadership and centered around helping teams Thrive and get better so I'm teams Thrive and get better so I'm teams Thrive and get better so I'm excited to hear what you're going to excited to hear what you're going to excited to hear what you're going to teach us today and uh I just want to teach us today and uh I just want to teach us today and uh I just want to Dive Right In but I know you've been Dive Right In but I know you've been Dive Right In but I know you've been busy you've been you've been writing and busy you've been you've been writing and busy you've been you've been writing and you've been traveling and so there's a you've been traveling and so there's a you've been traveling and so there's a good excuse for for this coming in and good excuse for for this coming in and good excuse for for this coming in and it's probably the perfect time right it's probably the perfect time right it's probably the perfect time right it's a the church world is is definitely it's a the church world is is definitely it's a the church world is is definitely uh switching and changing uh the gospel uh switching and changing uh the gospel uh switching and changing uh the gospel never does but the church always has to never does but the church always has to never does but the church always has to advance and maneuver and I see a lot of advance and maneuver and I see a lot of advance and maneuver and I see a lot of that with the churches that we get to that with the churches that we get to that with the churches that we get to work with and I'm I'm sure you do too work with and I'm I'm sure you do too work with and I'm I'm sure you do too but tell us a little bit about you know but tell us a little bit about you know but tell us a little bit about you know foresight group and your heart why did foresight group and your heart why did foresight group and your heart why did you start this and what is the mission you start this and what is the mission you start this and what is the mission and what are you wanting to achieve yeah and what are you wanting to achieve yeah and what are you wanting to achieve yeah well uh thanks for that question and well uh thanks for that question and well uh thanks for that question and again we have such a shared heart for again we have such a shared heart for again we have such a shared heart for how do we serve churches well and how do how do we serve churches well and how do how do we serve churches well and how do we serve leaders well and that was we serve leaders well and that was we serve leaders well and that was really where foresight was birth so a really where foresight was birth so a really where foresight was birth so a little bit of backstory um my short little bit of backstory um my short little bit of backstory um my short career journey is that I worked in the career journey is that I worked in the career journey is that I worked in the music business in the Christian music music business in the Christian music music business in the Christian music business for my first decade of my uh uh business for my first decade of my uh uh business for my first decade of my uh uh adult life and um thought I would run a adult life and um thought I would run a adult life and um thought I would run a record company I thought I'd be a record company I thought I'd be a record company I thought I'd be a corporate girl my entire life and then corporate girl my entire life and then corporate girl my entire life and then God does what he does right and he God does what he does right and he God does what he does right and he throws you a curveball and I ended up throws you a curveball and I ended up throws you a curveball and I ended up onur staff that my husband and I were a onur staff that my husband and I were a onur staff that my husband and I were a part of planting a church in Nashville part of planting a church in Nashville part of planting a church in Nashville and it was growing rapidly and a couple and it was growing rapidly and a couple and it was growing rapidly and a couple years into it the some of the elders and years into it the some of the elders and years into it the some of the elders and the lead pastors said hey would you come the lead pastors said hey would you come the lead pastors said hey would you come and consider working here in the role of

and consider working here in the role of and consider working here in the role of executive director which you know executive director which you know executive director which you know functionally executive pastor but uh functionally executive pastor but uh functionally executive pastor but uh number two on the team helping lead number two on the team helping lead number two on the team helping lead strategy lead the staff just help us put strategy lead the staff just help us put strategy lead the staff just help us put feet to the vision that's really kind of feet to the vision that's really kind of feet to the vision that's really kind of how I summarized my job was my job was how I summarized my job was my job was how I summarized my job was my job was to put feet to the vision help align a to put feet to the vision help align a to put feet to the vision help align a team to you know just make that visionen team to you know just make that visionen team to you know just make that visionen happen and um it was a really like just happen and um it was a really like just happen and um it was a really like just wonderful season and huge opportunity wonderful season and huge opportunity wonderful season and huge opportunity for me to see how my gifts worked inside for me to see how my gifts worked inside for me to see how my gifts worked inside the local church you know I grew up in the local church you know I grew up in the local church you know I grew up in pretty small churches where we didn't pretty small churches where we didn't pretty small churches where we didn't have a lot of paid staff and so I didn't have a lot of paid staff and so I didn't have a lot of paid staff and so I didn't never like been on my mind that I could never like been on my mind that I could never like been on my mind that I could work in a in a Ministry context yeah so work in a in a Ministry context yeah so work in a in a Ministry context yeah so I always thought I'd just be a good I always thought I'd just be a good I always thought I'd just be a good faithful faithful faithful volunteer and so I I was on staff there volunteer and so I I was on staff there volunteer and so I I was on staff there for about nine years and we grew from for about nine years and we grew from for about nine years and we grew from one location to six from 500 attendees one location to six from 500 attendees one location to six from 500 attendees to 6,000 from five staff to 75 staff and to 6,000 from five staff to 75 staff and to 6,000 from five staff to 75 staff and just the crazy complexity of growth and just the crazy complexity of growth and just the crazy complexity of growth and multisite and all the stuff that I'm multisite and all the stuff that I'm multisite and all the stuff that I'm sure lots of the listeners can relate to sure lots of the listeners can relate to sure lots of the listeners can relate to just the complexity of ministry and um just the complexity of ministry and um just the complexity of ministry and um but what stood out to me and I went on but what stood out to me and I went on but what stood out to me and I went on to serve at another church for a few to serve at another church for a few to serve at another church for a few years and then I I launched foresight years and then I I launched foresight years and then I I launched foresight and I launched foresight with a heart and I launched foresight with a heart and I launched foresight with a heart for helping leaders be healthy because for helping leaders be healthy because for helping leaders be healthy because I'd been in Ministry long enough to I'd been in Ministry long enough to I'd been in Ministry long enough to start seeing some of the Fallout right start seeing some of the Fallout right start seeing some of the Fallout right and so I wanted M leaders to be healthy and so I wanted M leaders to be healthy and so I wanted M leaders to be healthy and then I also wanted teams to be and then I also wanted teams to be and then I also wanted teams to be thriving because one of the other thriving because one of the other thriving because one of the other observations that I had both in my time observations that I had both in my time observations that I had both in my time in the corporate world in the music in the corporate world in the music in the corporate world in the music business and then in Ministry was that

business and then in Ministry was that business and then in Ministry was that if teams weren't aligned aligned and if teams weren't aligned aligned and if teams weren't aligned aligned and unified and really compelled and unified and really compelled and unified and really compelled and passionate about the mission it didn't passionate about the mission it didn't passionate about the mission it didn't matter how good the mission was right matter how good the mission was right matter how good the mission was right you just were going to um stumble over you just were going to um stumble over you just were going to um stumble over each other until you really found that each other until you really found that each other until you really found that Unity of a healthy team and I thought Unity of a healthy team and I thought Unity of a healthy team and I thought why in the world shouldn't the shouldn't why in the world shouldn't the shouldn't why in the world shouldn't the shouldn't Church teams be the strongest and the Church teams be the strongest and the Church teams be the strongest and the healthiest teams right like I actually healthiest teams right like I actually healthiest teams right like I actually wrote a mission statement for the church wrote a mission statement for the church wrote a mission statement for the church when I went on Ministry staff defining when I went on Ministry staff defining when I went on Ministry staff defining what I felt like the church should look what I felt like the church should look what I felt like the church should look like that the church should be a place like that the church should be a place like that the church should be a place where people are able to utilize their where people are able to utilize their where people are able to utilize their gifts in compelling ways where they're gifts in compelling ways where they're gifts in compelling ways where they're engaged and they're fully involved and engaged and they're fully involved and engaged and they're fully involved and they're whether they're staff or they're whether they're staff or they're whether they're staff or volunteers and I just wrote this big volunteers and I just wrote this big volunteers and I just wrote this big like you know vision statement of how I like you know vision statement of how I like you know vision statement of how I felt like all of us should be able to felt like all of us should be able to felt like all of us should be able to contribute our gifts inside the local contribute our gifts inside the local contribute our gifts inside the local church and so foresight was birthed out church and so foresight was birthed out church and so foresight was birthed out of hey I want to help do that with more of hey I want to help do that with more of hey I want to help do that with more leaders and more teams how do I help leaders and more teams how do I help leaders and more teams how do I help more leaders and more teams be healthier more leaders and more teams be healthier more leaders and more teams be healthier stronger so that they can achieve the stronger so that they can achieve the stronger so that they can achieve the mission that they feel like God has mission that they feel like God has mission that they feel like God has called them to yeah I mean that whole called them to yeah I mean that whole called them to yeah I mean that whole burnout and then an eventually turnout burnout and then an eventually turnout burnout and then an eventually turnout happens all too often yeah so talk a happens all too often yeah so talk a happens all too often yeah so talk a little bit about some of that strategy little bit about some of that strategy little bit about some of that strategy of you know when you're walking a te you of you know when you're walking a te you of you know when you're walking a te you know what what so so people who's know what what so so people who's know what what so so people who's listening to this our podcast are are listening to this our podcast are are listening to this our podcast are are are Church staff members are from com are Church staff members are from com are Church staff members are from com directors up to lead pastors and directors up to lead pastors and directors up to lead pastors and everybody in between yeah so what's some everybody in between yeah so what's some everybody in between yeah so what's some advice you'd give them on how you how do advice you'd give them on how you how do advice you'd give them on how you how do you accomplish what you

you accomplish what you you accomplish what you accomplish yeah you know I think um one accomplish yeah you know I think um one accomplish yeah you know I think um one of my my big mantras is lead yourself of my my big mantras is lead yourself of my my big mantras is lead yourself well to lead others better and it's that well to lead others better and it's that well to lead others better and it's that just deep conviction around self- just deep conviction around self- just deep conviction around self- leadership you know the hardest person leadership you know the hardest person leadership you know the hardest person for you to lead is you you know like the for you to lead is you you know like the for you to lead is you you know like the hardest person for me to lead is is me hardest person for me to lead is is me hardest person for me to lead is is me and I think what happens for and it's and I think what happens for and it's and I think what happens for and it's it's well intentioned but what happens it's well intentioned but what happens it's well intentioned but what happens for so many of us is that especially in for so many of us is that especially in for so many of us is that especially in Ministry we have volunteers we need to Ministry we have volunteers we need to Ministry we have volunteers we need to lead there's a congregation we need to lead there's a congregation we need to lead there's a congregation we need to lead and all of a sudden it's all of lead and all of a sudden it's all of lead and all of a sudden it's all of these people that have expectations on these people that have expectations on these people that have expectations on us and you know some of them real some us and you know some of them real some us and you know some of them real some of them you know um we assume and you of them you know um we assume and you of them you know um we assume and you know all kinds of different narratives know all kinds of different narratives know all kinds of different narratives and stories that are happening there but and stories that are happening there but and stories that are happening there but we feel the pressure of we feel the pressure of we feel the pressure of expectation and so we often we react act expectation and so we often we react act expectation and so we often we react act to that expectation without good healthy to that expectation without good healthy to that expectation without good healthy evaluation of okay what's going on with evaluation of okay what's going on with evaluation of okay what's going on with me how am I wired how am I gifted what me how am I wired how am I gifted what me how am I wired how am I gifted what do I need to really be healthy and do I need to really be healthy and do I need to really be healthy and thriving as a leader where do I need to thriving as a leader where do I need to thriving as a leader where do I need to be growing and a lot of times our be growing and a lot of times our be growing and a lot of times our well-intentioned desire to serve well-intentioned desire to serve well-intentioned desire to serve actually causes us to NE neglect our own actually causes us to NE neglect our own actually causes us to NE neglect our own growth development and health and so I growth development and health and so I growth development and health and so I see that over and over with leaders it's see that over and over with leaders it's see that over and over with leaders it's funny because we see this um we do a lot funny because we see this um we do a lot funny because we see this um we do a lot of coaching with women in leadership and of coaching with women in leadership and of coaching with women in leadership and we see moms do this a lot that they do we see moms do this a lot that they do we see moms do this a lot that they do sacrifice for the family and neglect sacrifice for the family and neglect sacrifice for the family and neglect themselves well I think Ministry leaders themselves well I think Ministry leaders themselves well I think Ministry leaders do this and that they sacrifice for do this and that they sacrifice for do this and that they sacrifice for everybody they're serving and they everybody they're serving and they everybody they're serving and they neglect like appropriate self-care you neglect like appropriate self-care you neglect like appropriate self-care you know like and so that self- leadership

know like and so that self- leadership know like and so that self- leadership piece of we've got to lead ourselves piece of we've got to lead ourselves piece of we've got to lead ourselves well so that we have something good and well so that we have something good and well so that we have something good and healthy to give to the people around us healthy to give to the people around us healthy to give to the people around us so long answer to your question Jason so long answer to your question Jason so long answer to your question Jason sorry you get me on soap box and then I sorry you get me on soap box and then I sorry you get me on soap box and then I just keep um but the long answer to the just keep um but the long answer to the just keep um but the long answer to the question is first that self- leadership question is first that self- leadership question is first that self- leadership piece which starts with self-awareness piece which starts with self-awareness piece which starts with self-awareness emotional intelligence right that emotional intelligence right that emotional intelligence right that understanding of hey what do I know understanding of hey what do I know understanding of hey what do I know about me what do I know about how well I about me what do I know about how well I about me what do I know about how well I show up um and then how I show up with show up um and then how I show up with show up um and then how I show up with others and so that starting point is a others and so that starting point is a others and so that starting point is a critical spot well and I would I'd go on critical spot well and I would I'd go on critical spot well and I would I'd go on to say that that is so true and that if to say that that is so true and that if to say that that is so true and that if you're not leading yourself well how can you're not leading yourself well how can you're not leading yourself well how can you be expected to lead others and it you be expected to lead others and it you be expected to lead others and it does kind of go against the well I'm does kind of go against the well I'm does kind of go against the well I'm here to serve I want to be a servant here to serve I want to be a servant here to serve I want to be a servant leader yes that's that's a good posture leader yes that's that's a good posture leader yes that's that's a good posture yes but to be a good servant leader you yes but to be a good servant leader you yes but to be a good servant leader you got to lead yourself so I'm 100% with got to lead yourself so I'm 100% with got to lead yourself so I'm 100% with you on that one and and so how is it you on that one and and so how is it you on that one and and so how is it it's is it uh when you have a high-c it's is it uh when you have a high-c it's is it uh when you have a high-c capacity leader that you work with and capacity leader that you work with and capacity leader that you work with and that could be executive Pastor the lead that could be executive Pastor the lead that could be executive Pastor the lead Pastor even could be some of the church Pastor even could be some of the church Pastor even could be some of the church staff that are all great leaders how do staff that are all great leaders how do staff that are all great leaders how do you convince them that they've got to you convince them that they've got to you convince them that they've got to they they have to look in the mirror and they they have to look in the mirror and they they have to look in the mirror and recognize you got to take care of recognize you got to take care of recognize you got to take care of yourself I mean what are the because if yourself I mean what are the because if yourself I mean what are the because if I knew about it I would do it you know I knew about it I would do it you know I knew about it I would do it you know kind but what is it that I need to know kind but what is it that I need to know kind but what is it that I need to know about yeah I think that um that's a about yeah I think that um that's a about yeah I think that um that's a fantastic question because you know one fantastic question because you know one fantastic question because you know one of my greatest frustrations in the work of my greatest frustrations in the work of my greatest frustrations in the work that I do is often leaders come to us that I do is often leaders come to us that I do is often leaders come to us when they're in crisis and that breaks when they're in crisis and that breaks when they're in crisis and that breaks my heart right because um either the my heart right because um either the my heart right because um either the leader is finally at the end of the Rope

leader is finally at the end of the Rope leader is finally at the end of the Rope recognizing I need support and I need recognizing I need support and I need recognizing I need support and I need help and so they engage us to say hey we help and so they engage us to say hey we help and so they engage us to say hey we need some coaching um we're not need some coaching um we're not need some coaching um we're not counselors so that's a different level counselors so that's a different level counselors so that's a different level of support but if they need you know of support but if they need you know of support but if they need you know practical coaching and their leadership practical coaching and their leadership practical coaching and their leadership skills then they're coming to us but skills then they're coming to us but skills then they're coming to us but they'll come to us after you know they'll come to us after you know they'll come to us after you know they've had kind of a wake of casualties they've had kind of a wake of casualties they've had kind of a wake of casualties of Staff members who have maybe have of Staff members who have maybe have of Staff members who have maybe have left or moved on or you know um and same left or moved on or you know um and same left or moved on or you know um and same thing with Team Dynamics is like you thing with Team Dynamics is like you thing with Team Dynamics is like you know when the when it's truly toxic is know when the when it's truly toxic is know when the when it's truly toxic is Sometimes When leaders come to us and Sometimes When leaders come to us and Sometimes When leaders come to us and we're like ah let's do some more we're like ah let's do some more we're like ah let's do some more proactive work you know and um and so I proactive work you know and um and so I proactive work you know and um and so I think what I would say to leaders is think what I would say to leaders is think what I would say to leaders is that every great leader needs support that every great leader needs support that every great leader needs support and coaching around them like it like and coaching around them like it like and coaching around them like it like probably the seasons when you feel like probably the seasons when you feel like probably the seasons when you feel like you're the flourishing the most is when you're the flourishing the most is when you're the flourishing the most is when you need somebody alongside of you just you need somebody alongside of you just you need somebody alongside of you just helping bring perspective and bring helping bring perspective and bring helping bring perspective and bring ideas and and here's some simple things ideas and and here's some simple things ideas and and here's some simple things you know maybe some um like uh more you know maybe some um like uh more you know maybe some um like uh more comfortable ways to do this but I comfortable ways to do this but I comfortable ways to do this but I remember very early on in my journey I remember very early on in my journey I remember very early on in my journey I knew that there was things I just didn't knew that there was things I just didn't knew that there was things I just didn't know like I was I was dumb enough and know like I was I was dumb enough and know like I was I was dumb enough and yet smart enough to recognize as a yet smart enough to recognize as a yet smart enough to recognize as a 20-some leader that I was like I don't 20-some leader that I was like I don't 20-some leader that I was like I don't know what I don't know and so I one of know what I don't know and so I one of know what I don't know and so I one of my good friends was just as passionate my good friends was just as passionate my good friends was just as passionate about growing as I was and we said you about growing as I was and we said you about growing as I was and we said you know what let's go get a leadership book know what let's go get a leadership book know what let's go get a leadership book and let's read it together and so we and let's read it together and so we and let's read it together and so we went and you know we would you know John went and you know we would you know John went and you know we would you know John Maxwell books or Jim Collins books or Maxwell books or Jim Collins books or Maxwell books or Jim Collins books or whatever it might be right this is a whatever it might be right this is a whatever it might be right this is a good handful of years ago um and we

good handful of years ago um and we good handful of years ago um and we would go pick a book together and then would go pick a book together and then would go pick a book together and then every Friday we'd go to lunch together every Friday we'd go to lunch together every Friday we'd go to lunch together it was like it was religiously on our it was like it was religiously on our it was like it was religiously on our calendar and we would read a chapter and calendar and we would read a chapter and calendar and we would read a chapter and we would review it and then we'd tell we would review it and then we'd tell we would review it and then we'd tell each other how we were doing and I would each other how we were doing and I would each other how we were doing and I would say hey here's what I see in you I love say hey here's what I see in you I love say hey here's what I see in you I love how you do this that he defined but you how you do this that he defined but you how you do this that he defined but you know what I think you've got a blind know what I think you've got a blind know what I think you've got a blind spot on this issue and she would do the spot on this issue and she would do the spot on this issue and she would do the reverse for me right and so I think I reverse for me right and so I think I reverse for me right and so I think I don't know why well I do know why I had don't know why well I do know why I had don't know why well I do know why I had a leader very on very early on tell me a leader very on very early on tell me a leader very on very early on tell me that I mean that if I wanted to leave that I mean that if I wanted to leave that I mean that if I wanted to leave people I was going to have to learn to people I was going to have to learn to people I was going to have to learn to love them because I was frankly love them because I was frankly love them because I was frankly bulldozing everybody like I was just bulldozing everybody like I was just bulldozing everybody like I was just kind of a you know a type firstborn kind of a you know a type firstborn kind of a you know a type firstborn overachiever who was bulldo in my way to overachiever who was bulldo in my way to overachiever who was bulldo in my way to succeed you know like so that was my succeed you know like so that was my succeed you know like so that was my early 20 something version of Jenny early 20 something version of Jenny early 20 something version of Jenny cine and uh so it was that like little a cine and uh so it was that like little a cine and uh so it was that like little a point of awareness that made me go oh point of awareness that made me go oh point of awareness that made me go oh okay there's more to learn here than I okay there's more to learn here than I okay there's more to learn here than I realize and so sometimes simple things realize and so sometimes simple things realize and so sometimes simple things like that just put you in a posture of like that just put you in a posture of like that just put you in a posture of how do I create a mechanism in my life how do I create a mechanism in my life how do I create a mechanism in my life where I am getting good feedback where I am getting good feedback where I am getting good feedback regularly I think the caution sign again regularly I think the caution sign again regularly I think the caution sign again short long answer to your question I short long answer to your question I short long answer to your question I think what I would tell leaders is if think what I would tell leaders is if think what I would tell leaders is if you don't have a mechanism for regular you don't have a mechanism for regular you don't have a mechanism for regular feedback somebody giving you regular feedback somebody giving you regular feedback somebody giving you regular feedback then you need to engage you feedback then you need to engage you feedback then you need to engage you need to find that you need to engage need to find that you need to engage need to find that you need to engage that like that would be the first point that like that would be the first point that like that would be the first point of self- leadership is I need regular

of self- leadership is I need regular of self- leadership is I need regular points of feedback in my life um before points of feedback in my life um before points of feedback in my life um before I go off the rails or before I honest I go off the rails or before I honest I go off the rails or before I honest honest helpful feedback not Echo chain honest helpful feedback not Echo chain honest helpful feedback not Echo chain feedback right aot that's that's really feedback right aot that's that's really feedback right aot that's that's really important because a lot of leaders do important because a lot of leaders do important because a lot of leaders do surround themselves with people and when surround themselves with people and when surround themselves with people and when you're you when you're especially if you're you when you're especially if you're you when you're especially if you're in a larger organization the you're in a larger organization the you're in a larger organization the larger the organization this is my larger the organization this is my larger the organization this is my personal experience the larger the personal experience the larger the personal experience the larger the organization the harder it is for the organization the harder it is for the organization the harder it is for the people on the staff or in the team to people on the staff or in the team to people on the staff or in the team to give honest feedback to the leader or to give honest feedback to the leader or to give honest feedback to the leader or to the primary leaders which means you're the primary leaders which means you're the primary leaders which means you're oftentimes you're gonna have to look for oftentimes you're gonna have to look for oftentimes you're gonna have to look for that outside of the organization that that outside of the organization that that outside of the organization that you're in people who know you people you you're in people who know you people you you're in people who know you people you trust people who don't have anything trust people who don't have anything trust people who don't have anything gain or lose by giving you the feedback gain or lose by giving you the feedback gain or lose by giving you the feedback that they're giving you that's right yes that they're giving you that's right yes that they're giving you that's right yes I'm love that you pointed that out Bart I'm love that you pointed that out Bart I'm love that you pointed that out Bart because uh that's the challenge right because uh that's the challenge right because uh that's the challenge right and especially for any leader the and especially for any leader the and especially for any leader the further you go up in the further you go up in the further you go up in the organization uh the harder it is for organization uh the harder it is for organization uh the harder it is for people to give you honest candid people to give you honest candid people to give you honest candid feedback because you hold a lot of power feedback because you hold a lot of power feedback because you hold a lot of power you hold a lot of influence and so you hold a lot of influence and so you hold a lot of influence and so people that are comfortable being that people that are comfortable being that people that are comfortable being that honest with you when I went into honest with you when I went into honest with you when I went into Ministry I had three really close Ministry I had three really close Ministry I had three really close friends from my previous work experience friends from my previous work experience friends from my previous work experience and I like purposely kept them very and I like purposely kept them very and I like purposely kept them very close they didn't attend the church that close they didn't attend the church that close they didn't attend the church that I was serving at so they didn't have a I was serving at so they didn't have a I was serving at so they didn't have a dog in the fight right like they didn't dog in the fight right like they didn't dog in the fight right like they didn't care they didn't care well I mean they care they didn't care well I mean they care they didn't care well I mean they did care because they cared about me and did care because they cared about me and did care because they cared about me and of course they cared about a local of course they cared about a local of course they cared about a local church but by and large they cared most church but by and large they cared most church but by and large they cared most about me and so they were willing to be

about me and so they were willing to be about me and so they were willing to be the sounding board for me on things I the sounding board for me on things I the sounding board for me on things I needed to process and they were willing needed to process and they were willing needed to process and they were willing to like give me feedback about you know to like give me feedback about you know to like give me feedback about you know what they were observing or hearing ing what they were observing or hearing ing what they were observing or hearing ing from me in that context and and you know from me in that context and and you know from me in that context and and you know they didn't have it you know it wasn't they didn't have it you know it wasn't they didn't have it you know it wasn't going to impact them one way or the going to impact them one way or the going to impact them one way or the other you know they were mostly other you know they were mostly other you know they were mostly concerned about my health and growth as concerned about my health and growth as concerned about my health and growth as a leader so you know I think every a leader so you know I think every a leader so you know I think every leader recognizing do I have those leader recognizing do I have those leader recognizing do I have those people in my life who don't have don't people in my life who don't have don't people in my life who don't have don't report to me I'm not in a position of report to me I'm not in a position of report to me I'm not in a position of authority over them in any way um that authority over them in any way um that authority over them in any way um that and that are able to actually give me and that are able to actually give me and that are able to actually give me meaningful feedback if I don't have one meaningful feedback if I don't have one meaningful feedback if I don't have one of those in my life that's a caution of those in my life that's a caution of those in my life that's a caution flag yeah and that's where you you you flag yeah and that's where you you you flag yeah and that's where you you you come in tremendously helpful for for come in tremendously helpful for for come in tremendously helpful for for churches okay let me ask you a question churches okay let me ask you a question churches okay let me ask you a question and and and I'm gonna preface this by and and and I'm gonna preface this by and and and I'm gonna preface this by saying every saying every saying every church has issues it doesn't matter who church has issues it doesn't matter who church has issues it doesn't matter who you are because we're all humans and we you are because we're all humans and we you are because we're all humans and we all are sinful and we all have issues all are sinful and we all have issues all are sinful and we all have issues that's just okay let's just we know that that's just okay let's just we know that that's just okay let's just we know that right everybody's saying yes our church right everybody's saying yes our church right everybody's saying yes our church has has has issues the problem with uh the or the issues the problem with uh the or the issues the problem with uh the or the question I want to ask is kind sent question I want to ask is kind sent question I want to ask is kind sent around this problem you could be around this problem you could be around this problem you could be growing tremendously or you could be growing tremendously or you could be growing tremendously or you could be decreasing you don't necessarily know so decreasing you don't necessarily know so decreasing you don't necessarily know so how does a church know if their culture how does a church know if their culture how does a church know if their culture is is uh healthy or or is is uh healthy or or is is uh healthy or or hurtful set aside the fact that you hurtful set aside the fact that you hurtful set aside the fact that you could be a growing church but your could be a growing church but your could be a growing church but your culture could just be a mess and I've I

culture could just be a mess and I've I culture could just be a mess and I've I got churches like that I mean I I'm got churches like that I mean I I'm got churches like that I mean I I'm think one I'm not going to say their think one I'm not going to say their think one I'm not going to say their name they are growing like crazy yes name they are growing like crazy yes name they are growing like crazy yes people are leaving people are leaving people are leaving and and they're they're trying to shake and and they're they're trying to shake and and they're they're trying to shake up their culture because they're up their culture because they're up their culture because they're recognizing uh oh oops and it's already recognizing uh oh oops and it's already recognizing uh oh oops and it's already too late because of the the too late because of the the too late because of the the dysfunctional of the culture so you know dysfunctional of the culture so you know dysfunctional of the culture so you know how do how do how do you Jason let me let me let me piggyback you Jason let me let me let me piggyback you Jason let me let me let me piggyback on your question before you answer this on your question before you answer this on your question before you answer this Jenny because I think I want to clarify Jenny because I think I want to clarify Jenny because I think I want to clarify when Jason is saying people are leaving when Jason is saying people are leaving when Jason is saying people are leaving it's typically staff people are leaving it's typically staff people are leaving it's typically staff people are leaving so the congregation like the front door so the congregation like the front door so the congregation like the front door of the church is wide open and people of the church is wide open and people of the church is wide open and people are coming yeah yet the staff is are coming yeah yet the staff is are coming yeah yet the staff is unstable and I guess I I will kind of unstable and I guess I I will kind of unstable and I guess I I will kind of dive into H the middle of his question dive into H the middle of his question dive into H the middle of his question and say how can a church have an and say how can a church have an and say how can a church have an unhealthy staff culture but on the unhealthy staff culture but on the unhealthy staff culture but on the surface look like the church culture surface look like the church culture surface look like the church culture itself is healthy because I think we see itself is healthy because I think we see itself is healthy because I think we see that a lot we see churches that look that a lot we see churches that look that a lot we see churches that look like from an attendee perspective or a m like from an attendee perspective or a m like from an attendee perspective or a m perspective up the right that the church perspective up the right that the church perspective up the right that the church that the church culture is healthy yet that the church culture is healthy yet that the church culture is healthy yet the cha staff Church the staff culture the cha staff Church the staff culture the cha staff Church the staff culture is is not healthy so yeah I'll stop and is is not healthy so yeah I'll stop and is is not healthy so yeah I'll stop and you can talk oh well this is this is you can talk oh well this is this is you can talk oh well this is this is this is absolutely a passion point point this is absolutely a passion point point this is absolutely a passion point point because in and just cander I lived this because in and just cander I lived this because in and just cander I lived this I you know one of the churches that I I you know one of the churches that I I you know one of the churches that I served at we had that exponential growth served at we had that exponential growth served at we had that exponential growth and so this is where a lot of my passion and so this is where a lot of my passion and so this is where a lot of my passion and uh came from was in our context um and uh came from was in our context um and uh came from was in our context um we didn't end up with a ton of Staff we didn't end up with a ton of Staff we didn't end up with a ton of Staff turnover but I end up encountering those turnover but I end up encountering those turnover but I end up encountering those situations a lot but we ended up with a situations a lot but we ended up with a situations a lot but we ended up with a senior leader who ended up in Burnout

senior leader who ended up in Burnout senior leader who ended up in Burnout and left you know so you know we it was and left you know so you know we it was and left you know so you know we it was and and what's happening in those and and what's happening in those and and what's happening in those scenarios is is um the momentum of scenarios is is um the momentum of scenarios is is um the momentum of growth uh the weight of that eventually growth uh the weight of that eventually growth uh the weight of that eventually overpowers the health the the team so overpowers the health the the team so overpowers the health the the team so yeah one of the ways I I'll I'll try to yeah one of the ways I I'll I'll try to yeah one of the ways I I'll I'll try to create a visual of this because it's a create a visual of this because it's a create a visual of this because it's a tool that I use when I'm working with tool that I use when I'm working with tool that I use when I'm working with teams but if you can visualize like that teams but if you can visualize like that teams but if you can visualize like that growth curve of like the up and to the growth curve of like the up and to the growth curve of like the up and to the right you know there's that bell curve right you know there's that bell curve right you know there's that bell curve of the up and to the right growth that of the up and to the right growth that of the up and to the right growth that we're all chasing which I don't think in we're all chasing which I don't think in we're all chasing which I don't think in and of itself is bad right we're told to and of itself is bad right we're told to and of itself is bad right we're told to fill the Earth and subdue it we're told fill the Earth and subdue it we're told fill the Earth and subdue it we're told to make disciples of all Nations you to make disciples of all Nations you to make disciples of all Nations you know there's an implication of growth in know there's an implication of growth in know there's an implication of growth in some of the Commandments that were given some of the Commandments that were given some of the Commandments that were given um but the how we approach that growth um but the how we approach that growth um but the how we approach that growth is I think really critical so as we're is I think really critical so as we're is I think really critical so as we're we're we're pursuing that growth up and we're we're pursuing that growth up and we're we're pursuing that growth up and to the right the question mark is well to the right the question mark is well to the right the question mark is well what supports that growth right like what supports that growth right like what supports that growth right like there's got to be something under that there's got to be something under that there's got to be something under that bell curve supporting that growth or bell curve supporting that growth or bell curve supporting that growth or it's eventually going to collapse and so it's eventually going to collapse and so it's eventually going to collapse and so I think that there are three key I think that there are three key I think that there are three key building blocks to Healthy Growth clear building blocks to Healthy Growth clear building blocks to Healthy Growth clear purpose right so our why why are we purpose right so our why why are we purpose right so our why why are we doing this which for most Ministry doing this which for most Ministry doing this which for most Ministry organizations we got that pretty locked organizations we got that pretty locked organizations we got that pretty locked in like we get that pretty solid but we in like we get that pretty solid but we in like we get that pretty solid but we typically then jump up to the third one typically then jump up to the third one typically then jump up to the third one which is strategy the plan how okay how which is strategy the plan how okay how which is strategy the plan how okay how do we do it we've got this great Mission do we do it we've got this great Mission do we do it we've got this great Mission we feel really called to reach our we feel really called to reach our we feel really called to reach our community we feel really called to reach community we feel really called to reach community we feel really called to reach our city okay now how what's the our city okay now how what's the our city okay now how what's the evangelism strategy what's the Outreach evangelism strategy what's the Outreach evangelism strategy what's the Outreach strategy you know and we go there which

strategy you know and we go there which strategy you know and we go there which again not bad but in the middle is our again not bad but in the middle is our again not bad but in the middle is our cult culture is our people so purpose cult culture is our people so purpose cult culture is our people so purpose people plan if you like the alliteration people plan if you like the alliteration people plan if you like the alliteration right but in the middle is our people right but in the middle is our people right but in the middle is our people and what often happens is that weight of and what often happens is that weight of and what often happens is that weight of that strategy eventually comes up and that strategy eventually comes up and that strategy eventually comes up and creates fractures and cracks in that creates fractures and cracks in that creates fractures and cracks in that middle block our people our team right middle block our people our team right middle block our people our team right because in the pursuit of growth we're because in the pursuit of growth we're because in the pursuit of growth we're like oh this is good because it it looks like oh this is good because it it looks like oh this is good because it it looks good it feels good it's it's on Mission good it feels good it's it's on Mission good it feels good it's it's on Mission and so we keep pursuing the growth and so we keep pursuing the growth and so we keep pursuing the growth without an awareness of the the pressure without an awareness of the the pressure without an awareness of the the pressure it's putting on our team the pressure it's putting on our team the pressure it's putting on our team the pressure it's creating for our people and so it's it's creating for our people and so it's it's creating for our people and so it's masking that growth tends to mask the um masking that growth tends to mask the um masking that growth tends to mask the um Health development care of our team and Health development care of our team and Health development care of our team and so that's what I like to shine a so that's what I like to shine a so that's what I like to shine a spotlight on with leaders is to say hey spotlight on with leaders is to say hey spotlight on with leaders is to say hey how are we if you can and visualize how are we if you can and visualize how are we if you can and visualize those three PE pieces the purpose people those three PE pieces the purpose people those three PE pieces the purpose people in a plan as like building blocks that in a plan as like building blocks that in a plan as like building blocks that have to build out as we grow up right have to build out as we grow up right have to build out as we grow up right like so you have to keep building out as like so you have to keep building out as like so you have to keep building out as you grow up that purpose is got got to you grow up that purpose is got got to you grow up that purpose is got got to get clearer and clearer and clearer we get clearer and clearer and clearer we get clearer and clearer and clearer we got to keep it front and center all the got to keep it front and center all the got to keep it front and center all the time but then with our people our team time but then with our people our team time but then with our people our team staff um even volunteer leaders what are staff um even volunteer leaders what are staff um even volunteer leaders what are we doing to invest in them to develop we doing to invest in them to develop we doing to invest in them to develop them to be clear about our culture how them to be clear about our culture how them to be clear about our culture how we work together um you know so that we work together um you know so that we work together um you know so that your people are really the lynchpin your people are really the lynchpin your people are really the lynchpin between that purpose and that strategy between that purpose and that strategy between that purpose and that strategy and it's values the values of how we and it's values the values of how we and it's values the values of how we work together are one of the anchor work together are one of the anchor work together are one of the anchor pieces for that the do we have Pathways

pieces for that the do we have Pathways pieces for that the do we have Pathways for their development and their growth for their development and their growth for their development and their growth so that we're investing in them to make so that we're investing in them to make so that we're investing in them to make sure that they're keeping Pace with the sure that they're keeping Pace with the sure that they're keeping Pace with the growth that we're experiencing and so growth that we're experiencing and so growth that we're experiencing and so helping build a system for your people helping build a system for your people helping build a system for your people to keep them healthy while you're to keep them healthy while you're to keep them healthy while you're building that strategy to stay on building that strategy to stay on building that strategy to stay on mission is really critical you're kind mission is really critical you're kind mission is really critical you're kind of you're working on all three of those of you're working on all three of those of you're working on all three of those pieces simultaneously and when we get pieces simultaneously and when we get pieces simultaneously and when we get disproportionately focused on strategy disproportionately focused on strategy disproportionately focused on strategy is when the cracks start to show up does is when the cracks start to show up does is when the cracks start to show up does that make sense oh it totally I mean as that make sense oh it totally I mean as that make sense oh it totally I mean as a leader a yeah because purpose is easy a leader a yeah because purpose is easy a leader a yeah because purpose is easy to Define yeah it's why we come to to Define yeah it's why we come to to Define yeah it's why we come to that's why we come to our job every day that's why we come to our job every day that's why we come to our job every day we understand that but we just skip over we understand that but we just skip over we understand that but we just skip over the the people I mean we'll think oh we the the people I mean we'll think oh we the the people I mean we'll think oh we can put this person here put this person can put this person here put this person can put this person here put this person there because we're straight into the there because we're straight into the there because we're straight into the strategy and the execution of our plan strategy and the execution of our plan strategy and the execution of our plan yeah if you don't if you don't do this I yeah if you don't if you don't do this I yeah if you don't if you don't do this I would Advocate it's it's almost you got would Advocate it's it's almost you got would Advocate it's it's almost you got to do that people thing more yes because to do that people thing more yes because to do that people thing more yes because if you lose sight of that it all if you lose sight of that it all if you lose sight of that it all crumbles down it all crumbles and yeah crumbles down it all crumbles and yeah crumbles down it all crumbles and yeah and that's what we see over and over as and that's what we see over and over as and that's what we see over and over as we see those stories and it makes me go we see those stories and it makes me go we see those stories and it makes me go ah like you know there's so much ah like you know there's so much ah like you know there's so much opportunity here and and it's it is a opportunity here and and it's it is a opportunity here and and it's it is a for me it's a major stewardship issue for me it's a major stewardship issue for me it's a major stewardship issue because for especially for churches I because for especially for churches I because for especially for churches I think your first congregation is your think your first congregation is your think your first congregation is your staff but sometimes we skip over them to staff but sometimes we skip over them to staff but sometimes we skip over them to serve the rest of the congregation and serve the rest of the congregation and serve the rest of the congregation and we sacrifice them in in the process and we sacrifice them in in the process and we sacrifice them in in the process and so if you're seeing significant turnover so if you're seeing significant turnover so if you're seeing significant turnover if you're seeing if you're seeing if you're seeing disengagement um uh then it's those

disengagement um uh then it's those disengagement um uh then it's those those are caution signs to say hey is those are caution signs to say hey is those are caution signs to say hey is there something there I need to do to there something there I need to do to there something there I need to do to shepher this team so that they can carry shepher this team so that they can carry shepher this team so that they can carry the weight of the rest of the ministry the weight of the rest of the ministry the weight of the rest of the ministry strategy sorry Bart I think I might have strategy sorry Bart I think I might have strategy sorry Bart I think I might have cut you off oh no what you said was cut you off oh no what you said was cut you off oh no what you said was awesome uh I I'm glad you you filled in awesome uh I I'm glad you you filled in awesome uh I I'm glad you you filled in those blanks there what I was going to those blanks there what I was going to those blanks there what I was going to say is you know I I often use this say is you know I I often use this say is you know I I often use this illustration when I'm working with illustration when I'm working with illustration when I'm working with church leaders to say you know your church leaders to say you know your church leaders to say you know your purpose is like this giant machine it's purpose is like this giant machine it's purpose is like this giant machine it's built to accomplish something and um built to accomplish something and um built to accomplish something and um your your your strategy is like the gears that actually strategy is like the gears that actually strategy is like the gears that actually kind of turn y your values are the kind of turn y your values are the kind of turn y your values are the grease on those gears that reduce grease on those gears that reduce grease on those gears that reduce friction and if you don't focus on the friction and if you don't focus on the friction and if you don't focus on the values you end up with a machine that values you end up with a machine that values you end up with a machine that has virtually no lubricant in it and has virtually no lubricant in it and has virtually no lubricant in it and that machine can be cranking really that machine can be cranking really that machine can be cranking really really hard but eventually that lack of really hard but eventually that lack of really hard but eventually that lack of value in there that lack of values that value in there that lack of values that value in there that lack of values that is supporting the mission you end up is supporting the mission you end up is supporting the mission you end up seizing the machine it's like the oil seizing the machine it's like the oil seizing the machine it's like the oil change in the car right you can keep change in the car right you can keep change in the car right you can keep driving the car for quite a long time driving the car for quite a long time driving the car for quite a long time without changing the oil but eventually without changing the oil but eventually without changing the oil but eventually you're going to have problems I do want you're going to have problems I do want you're going to have problems I do want to ask you a question about this though to ask you a question about this though to ask you a question about this though because I I've I've seen this where I'm because I I've I've seen this where I'm because I I've I've seen this where I'm watching it happen in the church if I watching it happen in the church if I watching it happen in the church if I can be perfectly honest where the church can be perfectly honest where the church can be perfectly honest where the church has actually spent an extensive period has actually spent an extensive period has actually spent an extensive period of time focusing on the church culture of time focusing on the church culture of time focusing on the church culture clear values living out the values clear values living out the values clear values living out the values celebrating the values but for some celebrating the values but for some celebrating the values but for some reason those values do not apply in the reason those values do not apply in the reason those values do not apply in the boardroom in the staff context in the boardroom in the staff context in the boardroom in the staff context in the meeting rooms you know it's just it's

meeting rooms you know it's just it's meeting rooms you know it's just it's it's inconsistent with the way that it's inconsistent with the way that it's inconsistent with the way that they're actually in the way that they're they're actually in the way that they're they're actually in the way that they're actually played out I have seen churches actually played out I have seen churches actually played out I have seen churches develop like a different set of core develop like a different set of core develop like a different set of core values so you have core values for the values so you have core values for the values so you have core values for the church and the mission we're trying to church and the mission we're trying to church and the mission we're trying to accomplish and then a set of core values accomplish and then a set of core values accomplish and then a set of core values that really sort of govern the staff that really sort of govern the staff that really sort of govern the staff relationships and the staff Works how relationships and the staff Works how relationships and the staff Works how how would you speak into that what are how would you speak into that what are how would you speak into that what are some pitfalls that you see churches in some pitfalls that you see churches in some pitfalls that you see churches in that particular area or or how are you that particular area or or how are you that particular area or or how are you how would you coach them through some of how would you coach them through some of how would you coach them through some of those challenges yeah oh I love that you those challenges yeah oh I love that you those challenges yeah oh I love that you shared those examples examples because shared those examples examples because shared those examples examples because that the first of you know the they've that the first of you know the they've that the first of you know the they've defined it all but then that's not defined it all but then that's not defined it all but then that's not actually how they behave I mean that is actually how they behave I mean that is actually how they behave I mean that is more of a culture Buster than almost more of a culture Buster than almost more of a culture Buster than almost anything like if you've gone to the work anything like if you've gone to the work anything like if you've gone to the work to say here are our values and they're to say here are our values and they're to say here are our values and they're lovely and we put them on the wall and lovely and we put them on the wall and lovely and we put them on the wall and we've done all the things and then we've done all the things and then we've done all the things and then that's not actually how we behave it's that's not actually how we behave it's that's not actually how we behave it's such a monster um violation of what such a monster um violation of what such a monster um violation of what you've defined that it completely like you've defined that it completely like you've defined that it completely like it it's it completely blows up your it it's it completely blows up your it it's it completely blows up your culture like people just they roll their culture like people just they roll their culture like people just they roll their eyes they see those on the wall and they eyes they see those on the wall and they eyes they see those on the wall and they like yeah right like that's what we do like yeah right like that's what we do like yeah right like that's what we do you know um so I think that's a and hear you know um so I think that's a and hear you know um so I think that's a and hear me again there's no perfect culture me again there's no perfect culture me again there's no perfect culture because there's no perfect people so we because there's no perfect people so we because there's no perfect people so we are going to do our best to Define what are going to do our best to Define what are going to do our best to Define what do we aspire to as a team what is what do we aspire to as a team what is what do we aspire to as a team what is what does it look like when we're at our best does it look like when we're at our best does it look like when we're at our best and I I say that good healthy defined and I I say that good healthy defined and I I say that good healthy defined staff values are an anchor for that like staff values are an anchor for that like staff values are an anchor for that like they kind of create that framework the they kind of create that framework the they kind of create that framework the the um the scaffolding for culture but

the um the scaffolding for culture but the um the scaffolding for culture but we take that a step further when we're we take that a step further when we're we take that a step further when we're working with organizations we say okay working with organizations we say okay working with organizations we say okay what are those values those things that what are those values those things that what are those values those things that are distinctive to you and your team and are distinctive to you and your team and are distinctive to you and your team and how you operate it's how you do the work how you operate it's how you do the work how you operate it's how you do the work together um what are those distinctives together um what are those distinctives together um what are those distinctives for you okay why why is that so for you okay why why is that so for you okay why why is that so important why is that such a deep important why is that such a deep important why is that such a deep conviction and belief for you what does conviction and belief for you what does conviction and belief for you what does it look like like what does this look it look like like what does this look it look like like what does this look like in action and and then how do even like in action and and then how do even like in action and and then how do even talk about it so we put some fun talk about it so we put some fun talk about it so we put some fun phrasing around it but then we go to phrasing around it but then we go to phrasing around it but then we go to part two and we say okay how do we build part two and we say okay how do we build part two and we say okay how do we build a so this is back to a system like even a so this is back to a system like even a so this is back to a system like even culture needs a system right healthy culture needs a system right healthy culture needs a system right healthy things need systems to keep reproducing things need systems to keep reproducing things need systems to keep reproducing and growing and so even your culture and growing and so even your culture and growing and so even your culture framed around a set of values needs a framed around a set of values needs a framed around a set of values needs a system to make sure we are consistently system to make sure we are consistently system to make sure we are consistently living into what we've defined so then living into what we've defined so then living into what we've defined so then we look at that and we say okay now we look at that and we say okay now we look at that and we say okay now let's look at all of the different let's look at all of the different let's look at all of the different points within our organizational life points within our organizational life points within our organizational life from how we hire and recruit and onboard from how we hire and recruit and onboard from how we hire and recruit and onboard to our staff meetings to our performance to our staff meetings to our performance to our staff meetings to our performance reviews to um our one-on ones to how we reviews to um our one-on ones to how we reviews to um our one-on ones to how we train our managers how does every key train our managers how does every key train our managers how does every key part of a team member's Journey how do part of a team member's Journey how do part of a team member's Journey how do we make sure we're reinforcing what we we make sure we're reinforcing what we we make sure we're reinforcing what we said who we said we want to be and so M said who we said we want to be and so M said who we said we want to be and so M trying to fight for that congruence trying to fight for that congruence trying to fight for that congruence between those two things is really between those two things is really between those two things is really really important um and I will say we really important um and I will say we really important um and I will say we often see in churches especially that often see in churches especially that often see in churches especially that there are often times a set of values there are often times a set of values there are often times a set of values that are churchwide you know of what do that are churchwide you know of what do that are churchwide you know of what do we believe as a a Congregation of like

we believe as a a Congregation of like we believe as a a Congregation of like are the values that guide how we live are the values that guide how we live are the values that guide how we live out our mission but then a set of values out our mission but then a set of values out our mission but then a set of values for the staff of like for those of us for the staff of like for those of us for the staff of like for those of us who are paid to give the best hours of who are paid to give the best hours of who are paid to give the best hours of our day that are working together in a our day that are working together in a our day that are working together in a in a working context what are the values in a working context what are the values in a working context what are the values that need to guide how we interact you that need to guide how we interact you that need to guide how we interact you know like the commitments we're making know like the commitments we're making know like the commitments we're making to each other so I do kind of as long as to each other so I do kind of as long as to each other so I do kind of as long as those aren't in congruent there was a those aren't in congruent there was a those aren't in congruent there was a team that I worked with um a couple team that I worked with um a couple team that I worked with um a couple years ago and they were redefining both years ago and they were redefining both years ago and they were redefining both values because this church had been values because this church had been values because this church had been through a ton of upheaval and uh kind of through a ton of upheaval and uh kind of through a ton of upheaval and uh kind of everything needed to be built from the everything needed to be built from the everything needed to be built from the ground up and but they we said the staff ground up and but they we said the staff ground up and but they we said the staff were so the team that I was working with were so the team that I was working with were so the team that I was working with we called them the culture team the team we called them the culture team the team we called them the culture team the team that I was working with they ultimately that I was working with they ultimately that I was working with they ultimately the staff needed to align with all of the staff needed to align with all of the staff needed to align with all of the values it wasn't uh well we just you the values it wasn't uh well we just you the values it wasn't uh well we just you know focus on the staff values it's like know focus on the staff values it's like know focus on the staff values it's like well you first focus on the churchwide well you first focus on the churchwide well you first focus on the churchwide values like we're all committed to this values like we're all committed to this values like we're all committed to this this is this is pay to play like if this is this is pay to play like if this is this is pay to play like if we're here we're engaged with the we're here we're engaged with the we're here we're engaged with the mission and the V vision and values of mission and the V vision and values of mission and the V vision and values of this church and then there's also kind this church and then there's also kind this church and then there's also kind of another set of expectations around of another set of expectations around of another set of expectations around how we work together as um as a staff how we work together as um as a staff how we work together as um as a staff team and so um I see both of those at team and so um I see both of those at team and so um I see both of those at play but they we need to be clear about play but they we need to be clear about play but they we need to be clear about what they are and how they work together what they are and how they work together what they are and how they work together wow okay um one more question I have one wow okay um one more question I have one wow okay um one more question I have one more question for you well I have a lot more question for you well I have a lot more question for you well I have a lot of questions but we're running out of of questions but we're running out of of questions but we're running out of time I have I have one too and I have my time I have I have one too and I have my time I have I have one too and I have my fingers crossed so I don't forget what fingers crossed so I don't forget what fingers crossed so I don't forget what it is okay go ahead Jason it is okay go ahead Jason it is okay go ahead Jason fingers crossed okay I got my fingers fingers crossed okay I got my fingers fingers crossed okay I got my fingers crossed so I don't forget my question crossed so I don't forget my question crossed so I don't forget my question how what would you recommend to people

how what would you recommend to people how what would you recommend to people who have to lead up and let them you who have to lead up and let them you who have to lead up and let them you know the people that you know my boss know the people that you know my boss know the people that you know my boss got how do I lead up yeah especially got how do I lead up yeah especially got how do I lead up yeah especially around culture shaping issues are just around culture shaping issues are just around culture shaping issues are just in general in general in general yes um yes um yes um so so so super important super important super important to to to um bring humility to that um bring humility to that um bring humility to that question question question um and so because I think you know so I um and so because I think you know so I um and so because I think you know so I I'll I'll showare this via story years I'll I'll showare this via story years I'll I'll showare this via story years ago I had a boss who I did not respect ago I had a boss who I did not respect ago I had a boss who I did not respect very much this was not in the church very much this was not in the church very much this was not in the church world this was in my corporate world this was in my corporate world this was in my corporate experience and so it just we're we're experience and so it just we're we're experience and so it just we're we're disconnected a ways from that one disconnected a ways from that one disconnected a ways from that one sure I did not have a lot of respect for sure I did not have a lot of respect for sure I did not have a lot of respect for this this this individual um was highly critical of how individual um was highly critical of how individual um was highly critical of how they handled things so much so that they handled things so much so that they handled things so much so that again this is my 27-year-old naive at again this is my 27-year-old naive at again this is my 27-year-old naive at work but I had a journal of all the work but I had a journal of all the work but I had a journal of all the things I thought this this leader could things I thought this this leader could things I thought this this leader could be doing better and um some of them were be doing better and um some of them were be doing better and um some of them were probably valid many of them were just um probably valid many of them were just um probably valid many of them were just um uh ignorance on my part because I didn't uh ignorance on my part because I didn't uh ignorance on my part because I didn't know everything that leader was know everything that leader was know everything that leader was shouldering fast forward I got promoted shouldering fast forward I got promoted shouldering fast forward I got promoted into that position and I remember having into that position and I remember having into that position and I remember having the the the most um almost like punch in the gut

most um almost like punch in the gut most um almost like punch in the gut kind of moment of realization of like kind of moment of realization of like kind of moment of realization of like wow I just didn't understand what this wow I just didn't understand what this wow I just didn't understand what this leader was shouldering now the decisions leader was shouldering now the decisions leader was shouldering now the decisions make so much more sense to me so my my make so much more sense to me so my my make so much more sense to me so my my caution there is I absolutely think that caution there is I absolutely think that caution there is I absolutely think that leaders need healthy push back and I do leaders need healthy push back and I do leaders need healthy push back and I do think we need to lead up and we need to think we need to lead up and we need to think we need to lead up and we need to try to influence because we're bringing try to influence because we're bringing try to influence because we're bringing perspective that our leader might not perspective that our leader might not perspective that our leader might not see at the same time I want us to come see at the same time I want us to come see at the same time I want us to come at that with a humility to recognize at that with a humility to recognize at that with a humility to recognize that there are things that we don't see that there are things that we don't see that there are things that we don't see because we're not shouldering what our because we're not shouldering what our because we're not shouldering what our leader is shouldering so I think leading leader is shouldering so I think leading leader is shouldering so I think leading up really requires a posture of coming up really requires a posture of coming up really requires a posture of coming with curiosity to say hey can I give you with curiosity to say hey can I give you with curiosity to say hey can I give you some perspective on something that I see some perspective on something that I see some perspective on something that I see um because in case it might be helpful um because in case it might be helpful um because in case it might be helpful or here's how I'm experiencing this or here's how I'm experiencing this or here's how I'm experiencing this could I share that with you it's all in could I share that with you it's all in could I share that with you it's all in our posture so I think if you come with our posture so I think if you come with our posture so I think if you come with a realization that you likely have some a realization that you likely have some a realization that you likely have some blind spots around what that leader is blind spots around what that leader is blind spots around what that leader is carrying or why they're making decisions carrying or why they're making decisions carrying or why they're making decisions the way that they're making the way that they're making the way that they're making decisions um and then you ask some decisions um and then you ask some decisions um and then you ask some questions or you ask can I give some questions or you ask can I give some questions or you ask can I give some perspective on this if you come with perspective on this if you come with perspective on this if you come with that type of posture that will not that type of posture that will not that type of posture that will not always all cases because it depends on always all cases because it depends on always all cases because it depends on the leader and their reaction and the leader and their reaction and the leader and their reaction and response but in most cases they're going response but in most cases they're going response but in most cases they're going to be much more receptive to say yeah to be much more receptive to say yeah to be much more receptive to say yeah please tell me more what what are you please tell me more what what are you please tell me more what what are you seeing and you actually might become a seeing and you actually might become a seeing and you actually might become a very trusted voice there so I don't know very trusted voice there so I don't know very trusted voice there so I don't know if I answered your question quite right if I answered your question quite right if I answered your question quite right there Jason but I think the the posture there Jason but I think the the posture there Jason but I think the the posture of humility and curiosity will always

of humility and curiosity will always of humility and curiosity will always serve you well and I think that gives us serve you well and I think that gives us serve you well and I think that gives us the influence to lead up you know and I the influence to lead up you know and I the influence to lead up you know and I think just for that person who is trying think just for that person who is trying think just for that person who is trying to lead up your leadership matters first to lead up your leadership matters first to lead up your leadership matters first like we just went back to it matters how like we just went back to it matters how like we just went back to it matters how you're leading yourself so perhaps if you're leading yourself so perhaps if you're leading yourself so perhaps if you think oh my leader doing this wrong you think oh my leader doing this wrong you think oh my leader doing this wrong and that wrong maybe there's some things and that wrong maybe there's some things and that wrong maybe there's some things going on in you that you need to rec going on in you that you need to rec going on in you that you need to rec first take a look at first yeah take a first take a look at first yeah take a first take a look at first yeah take a look at first go to God with that go to look at first go to God with that go to look at first go to God with that go to a trusted friend like you said outside a trusted friend like you said outside a trusted friend like you said outside the you know the organization and then the you know the organization and then the you know the organization and then start to I love that approach of going start to I love that approach of going start to I love that approach of going hey I just I want to share some things hey I just I want to share some things hey I just I want to share some things you know and then that'll tell you about you know and then that'll tell you about you know and then that'll tell you about your boss and maybe you're maybe you're your boss and maybe you're maybe you're your boss and maybe you're maybe you're in the wrong spot you know because in the wrong spot you know because in the wrong spot you know because there's maybe not a way out of it but there's maybe not a way out of it but there's maybe not a way out of it but yeah that's a great answer I really yeah that's a great answer I really yeah that's a great answer I really appreciate that it was a really good appreciate that it was a really good appreciate that it was a really good question Jason it was a really good question Jason it was a really good question Jason it was a really good answer Jenny and Jason and the next time answer Jenny and Jason and the next time answer Jenny and Jason and the next time we have a conversation and I ask you do we have a conversation and I ask you do we have a conversation and I ask you do you mind if I bring you some perspective you mind if I bring you some perspective you mind if I bring you some perspective on this you'll know exactly where I got on this you'll know exactly where I got on this you'll know exactly where I got like giveway okay all right my question like giveway okay all right my question like giveway okay all right my question okay so so Jenny I'm glad that you okay so so Jenny I'm glad that you okay so so Jenny I'm glad that you shared that it's kind of interesting I I shared that it's kind of interesting I I shared that it's kind of interesting I I was a worship Pastor on staff at a was a worship Pastor on staff at a was a worship Pastor on staff at a church for about 10 years I was actually church for about 10 years I was actually church for about 10 years I was actually a volunteer leader for two and then a volunteer leader for two and then a volunteer leader for two and then became joined the staff was there for 12 became joined the staff was there for 12 became joined the staff was there for 12 years served alongside a a senior pastor years served alongside a a senior pastor years served alongside a a senior pastor who I mean I like you was a little bit who I mean I like you was a little bit who I mean I like you was a little bit of a bulldozer in my early days type A of a bulldozer in my early days type A of a bulldozer in my early days type A get her done high D like get her done get her done high D like get her done get her done high D like get her done that's what we did and I remember that's what we did and I remember that's what we did and I remember pressing my senior pastor who I had a pressing my senior pastor who I had a pressing my senior pastor who I had a very close relationship with and still very close relationship with and still very close relationship with and still do uh you know 20 plus years later still do uh you know 20 plus years later still do uh you know 20 plus years later still still close relationship although we

still close relationship although we still close relationship although we haven't served in the same church haven't served in the same church haven't served in the same church together for a long time and then I went together for a long time and then I went together for a long time and then I went and I helped another guy plant a church and I helped another guy plant a church and I helped another guy plant a church and then I ended up actually being the and then I ended up actually being the and then I ended up actually being the senior pastor of that church for about senior pastor of that church for about senior pastor of that church for about five and a half years and I still five and a half years and I still five and a half years and I still remember the day I sat down at my desk remember the day I sat down at my desk remember the day I sat down at my desk and I went oh my goodness I need to and I went oh my goodness I need to and I went oh my goodness I need to write a letter of write a letter of write a letter of apology I need to write a letter of apology I need to write a letter of apology I need to write a letter of apology to this other Pastor that I apology to this other Pastor that I apology to this other Pastor that I served alongside for years because I did served alongside for years because I did served alongside for years because I did not understand the weight I did not not understand the weight I did not not understand the weight I did not understand the weight I did not until understand the weight I did not until understand the weight I did not until you've sat in the chair you cannot know you've sat in the chair you cannot know you've sat in the chair you cannot know what that person why they're making the what that person why they're making the what that person why they're making the decisions they're making in all reality decisions they're making in all reality decisions they're making in all reality when I had time to reflect on it I when I had time to reflect on it I when I had time to reflect on it I realized that he was making a lot of realized that he was making a lot of realized that he was making a lot of good decisions I just didn't see them good decisions I just didn't see them good decisions I just didn't see them that way because it wasn't the way I that way because it wasn't the way I that way because it wasn't the way I would have done it so okay I do have a would have done it so okay I do have a would have done it so okay I do have a question here's my question we'll make question here's my question we'll make question here's my question we'll make this the last question and then we'll this the last question and then we'll this the last question and then we'll wrap this up I'm gonna rewind about I wrap this up I'm gonna rewind about I wrap this up I'm gonna rewind about I don't know 10 minutes or so ago you used don't know 10 minutes or so ago you used don't know 10 minutes or so ago you used this phrase when you were talking about this phrase when you were talking about this phrase when you were talking about values and you said values and you said values and you said these are commitments that we make to these are commitments that we make to these are commitments that we make to one another is that the way that you one another is that the way that you one another is that the way that you would Define the core values in a church would Define the core values in a church would Define the core values in a church or or H how do you how do you define or or H how do you how do you define or or H how do you how do you define those core values and how do you I love those core values and how do you I love those core values and how do you I love that language these are commitments that that language these are commitments that that language these are commitments that we make to each other expand on that a we make to each other expand on that a we make to each other expand on that a little bit if you will yeah yeah I would little bit if you will yeah yeah I would little bit if you will yeah yeah I would say that was one of the ways I would say that was one of the ways I would say that was one of the ways I would Define them I say also that it's the Define them I say also that it's the Define them I say also that it's the guiding principles that shape how we guiding principles that shape how we guiding principles that shape how we work together right it it and it it is work together right it it and it it is work together right it it and it it is those it is those convictions that align those it is those convictions that align those it is those convictions that align us you know so um us you know so um us you know so um and you know the thing about values is and you know the thing about values is and you know the thing about values is the the data tells us you know really the the data tells us you know really the the data tells us you know really three to five values is all you should three to five values is all you should three to five values is all you should have for a a group because you're not

have for a a group because you're not have for a a group because you're not going to remember more than that anyway going to remember more than that anyway going to remember more than that anyway so you're really looking to try to so you're really looking to try to so you're really looking to try to distill what are those three to five distill what are those three to five distill what are those three to five distinctives that are really unique for distinctives that are really unique for distinctives that are really unique for us in this season or for us like if it's us in this season or for us like if it's us in this season or for us like if it's churchwide values what are the things churchwide values what are the things churchwide values what are the things that really set us apart because our that really set us apart because our that really set us apart because our mission is probably pretty similar to mission is probably pretty similar to mission is probably pretty similar to the 20 other churches around town right the 20 other churches around town right the 20 other churches around town right but our values might be those but our values might be those but our values might be those distinctives that set apart how we distinctives that set apart how we distinctives that set apart how we actually live out that mission together actually live out that mission together actually live out that mission together so for churchwide values you know you're so for churchwide values you know you're so for churchwide values you know you're trying and so those are those trying and so those are those trying and so those are those convictions and what will draw people to convictions and what will draw people to convictions and what will draw people to come and be a part of your church and come and be a part of your church and come and be a part of your church and really commit and be you know uh deeply really commit and be you know uh deeply really commit and be you know uh deeply aligned there for staff it's the you aligned there for staff it's the you aligned there for staff it's the you know what hey these are really core know what hey these are really core know what hey these are really core behaviors you know the The Guiding behaviors you know the The Guiding behaviors you know the The Guiding principles for how we work together so principles for how we work together so principles for how we work together so an example of this is for the foresight an example of this is for the foresight an example of this is for the foresight team one of our values and you've team one of our values and you've team one of our values and you've already heard me talk about it today is already heard me talk about it today is already heard me talk about it today is self- leadership right like how in the self- leadership right like how in the self- leadership right like how in the world and not that we get this right at world and not that we get this right at world and not that we get this right at all this is a constant conversation that all this is a constant conversation that all this is a constant conversation that we are having as a team how in the world we are having as a team how in the world we are having as a team how in the world can we coach leaders and Coach teams if can we coach leaders and Coach teams if can we coach leaders and Coach teams if we are not doing the really important we are not doing the really important we are not doing the really important work of leading ourselves well of making work of leading ourselves well of making work of leading ourselves well of making sure we are constantly learning we are sure we are constantly learning we are sure we are constantly learning we are growing we are asking questions we are growing we are asking questions we are growing we are asking questions we are remaining humble um and so we have a remaining humble um and so we have a remaining humble um and so we have a whole like we call it our values grid whole like we call it our values grid whole like we call it our values grid but then those behaviors around the but then those behaviors around the but then those behaviors around the values that we hold and why those are so values that we hold and why those are so values that we hold and why those are so distinctive for us another organization distinctive for us another organization distinctive for us another organization that does similar work might have that does similar work might have that does similar work might have different convictions core convictions

different convictions core convictions different convictions core convictions that they hold um that guide their work that they hold um that guide their work that they hold um that guide their work but for us self leadership is a really but for us self leadership is a really but for us self leadership is a really key one for us so yeah I would just say key one for us so yeah I would just say key one for us so yeah I would just say it's those core convictions those it's those core convictions those it's those core convictions those guiding principles but it really the guiding principles but it really the guiding principles but it really the lynchpin there is it's how we work lynchpin there is it's how we work lynchpin there is it's how we work together it's the it's the commitments together it's the it's the commitments together it's the it's the commitments we're making to one another these are we're making to one another these are we're making to one another these are the things that we hold most most the things that we hold most most the things that we hold most most valuable and healthy cultures healthy valuable and healthy cultures healthy valuable and healthy cultures healthy teams will um celebrate those in each teams will um celebrate those in each teams will um celebrate those in each other hey I really appreciate how you other hey I really appreciate how you other hey I really appreciate how you modeled self- leadership when you um modeled self- leadership when you um modeled self- leadership when you um when you owned this you know thing that when you owned this you know thing that when you owned this you know thing that happened or um and so they'll celebrate happened or um and so they'll celebrate happened or um and so they'll celebrate that in each other or they I had this that in each other or they I had this that in each other or they I had this happened with a team the other day that happened with a team the other day that happened with a team the other day that I was working with and they were it's a I was working with and they were it's a I was working with and they were it's a team I've been so sometimes I do um team I've been so sometimes I do um team I've been so sometimes I do um group coaching for like whole executive group coaching for like whole executive group coaching for like whole executive teams so I was sitting in their meeting teams so I was sitting in their meeting teams so I was sitting in their meeting they're they're talking through an issue they're they're talking through an issue they're they're talking through an issue and uh one of the team members says and uh one of the team members says and uh one of the team members says something about you know a decision that something about you know a decision that something about you know a decision that they need to make and another team they need to make and another team they need to make and another team member chimed up and said but do you member chimed up and said but do you member chimed up and said but do you think that that that would value that think that that that would value that think that that that would value that would violate this value that we hold would violate this value that we hold would violate this value that we hold because I think if we did that this way because I think if we did that this way because I think if we did that this way it really wouldn't reflect the best of it really wouldn't reflect the best of it really wouldn't reflect the best of who we are and living out this who we are and living out this who we are and living out this value such a win right like that's such value such a win right like that's such value such a win right like that's such a win because they are self-regulating a win because they are self-regulating a win because they are self-regulating using their values to keep them in check using their values to keep them in check using their values to keep them in check as a team and I'm like I was like my as a team and I'm like I was like my as a team and I'm like I was like my work is done like I like like this team work is done like I like like this team work is done like I like like this team is living into who they say they want to is living into who they say they want to is living into who they say they want to be and and they're using their values to be and and they're using their values to be and and they're using their values to guide that and it's showing up in the

guide that and it's showing up in the guide that and it's showing up in the they're just having an everyday they're just having an everyday they're just having an everyday conversation about a strategic decision conversation about a strategic decision conversation about a strategic decision and all of a sudden it's like okay but and all of a sudden it's like okay but and all of a sudden it's like okay but wait does that are we staying in wait does that are we staying in wait does that are we staying in alignment with our value because if we alignment with our value because if we alignment with our value because if we violate a value this isn't going to be violate a value this isn't going to be violate a value this isn't going to be the right decision yeah and so again I the right decision yeah and so again I the right decision yeah and so again I might be taking a tangent Bart but like might be taking a tangent Bart but like might be taking a tangent Bart but like that that's what comes to mind as you that that's what comes to mind as you that that's what comes to mind as you ask that question about that's great ask that question about that's great ask that question about that's great thank you so much Jason over you you thank you so much Jason over you you thank you so much Jason over you you want to wrap this thing up who do you want to wrap this thing up who do you want to wrap this thing up who do you look who do you look to as you're trying look who do you look to as you're trying look who do you look to as you're trying to grow yourself I mean are there to grow yourself I mean are there to grow yourself I mean are there podcasts books conferences I am anywhere podcasts books conferences I am anywhere podcasts books conferences I am anywhere and everywhere like I I am such a geek and everywhere like I I am such a geek and everywhere like I I am such a geek for knowledge so I'll tell you some of for knowledge so I'll tell you some of for knowledge so I'll tell you some of the things that I am in the middle of I the things that I am in the middle of I the things that I am in the middle of I just finished Dallas Willard's life just finished Dallas Willard's life just finished Dallas Willard's life without lack you guys I I mean I've without lack you guys I I mean I've without lack you guys I I mean I've always been a Willard fan this always been a Willard fan this always been a Willard fan this particular one like just has just hit me particular one like just has just hit me particular one like just has just hit me smack where I needed to hit it do I smack where I needed to hit it do I smack where I needed to hit it do I trust God right do I really trust God so trust God right do I really trust God so trust God right do I really trust God so from a personal growth spiritual growth from a personal growth spiritual growth from a personal growth spiritual growth standpoint that that has been a recent standpoint that that has been a recent standpoint that that has been a recent one that's been amazing for me um I love one that's been amazing for me um I love one that's been amazing for me um I love all things lunch only when it comes to all things lunch only when it comes to all things lunch only when it comes to team stuff good yeah I mean I just I team stuff good yeah I mean I just I team stuff good yeah I mean I just I will just eat his stuff up all the time will just eat his stuff up all the time will just eat his stuff up all the time um I am about to start Mark Miller's new um I am about to start Mark Miller's new um I am about to start Mark Miller's new book on culture I think it's called book on culture I think it's called book on culture I think it's called culture rules so I'm always reading and culture rules so I'm always reading and culture rules so I'm always reading and learning anything in that space um so learning anything in that space um so learning anything in that space um so Adam grant that his voice on leadership Adam grant that his voice on leadership Adam grant that his voice on leadership and teams is so valuable and um I'm

and teams is so valuable and um I'm and teams is so valuable and um I'm trying to think of others that are like trying to think of others that are like trying to think of others that are like top of my top of my list but those are a top of my top of my list but those are a top of my top of my list but those are a couple that come to mind okay awesome couple that come to mind okay awesome couple that come to mind okay awesome and then uh because I know people are and then uh because I know people are and then uh because I know people are going to want to get a hold of you have going to want to get a hold of you have going to want to get a hold of you have some follow-up questions so thank you some follow-up questions so thank you some follow-up questions so thank you for allowing people to get a hold of you for allowing people to get a hold of you for allowing people to get a hold of you what's the best way to do that I love it what's the best way to do that I love it what's the best way to do that I love it I love it I love it yes first our I love it I love it yes first our I love it I love it yes first our website is get foresight decom it's G website is get foresight decom it's G website is get foresight decom it's G the number four SI gt.com so on the the number four SI gt.com so on the the number four SI gt.com so on the website you can see and we have tons of website you can see and we have tons of website you can see and we have tons of free stuff like the podcast you can find free stuff like the podcast you can find free stuff like the podcast you can find there the blog you can find there bunch there the blog you can find there bunch there the blog you can find there bunch of free resources and downloads and then of free resources and downloads and then of free resources and downloads and then just more info about everything we do so just more info about everything we do so just more info about everything we do so that's a great place and then on social that's a great place and then on social that's a great place and then on social media I'm Jenny catran Jenn i c a t r o media I'm Jenny catran Jenn i c a t r o media I'm Jenny catran Jenn i c a t r o n and so I'm on most of the social media n and so I'm on most of the social media n and so I'm on most of the social media Chann channels um so I'd love to connect Chann channels um so I'd love to connect Chann channels um so I'd love to connect you can message me there and I'd love to you can message me there and I'd love to you can message me there and I'd love to connect yeah well awesome well thank you connect yeah well awesome well thank you connect yeah well awesome well thank you so much man you're you're you're thanks so much man you're you're you're thanks so much man you're you're you're thanks for having me your years of experience for having me your years of experience for having me your years of experience in the church and in the in the church and in the in the church and in the marketplace go it's easy to see guys marketplace go it's easy to see guys marketplace go it's easy to see guys using you to help other cultures get using you to help other cultures get using you to help other cultures get Thrive and get better and stronger and Thrive and get better and stronger and Thrive and get better and stronger and the kingdom is gonna be impacted from the kingdom is gonna be impacted from the kingdom is gonna be impacted from that so thank you for bless with that that so thank you for bless with that that so thank you for bless with that thank you appreciate you guys well of thank you appreciate you guys well of thank you appreciate you guys well of course of course we will uh we will link course of course we will uh we will link course of course we will uh we will link to your social accounts and the to your social accounts and the to your social accounts and the foresight group uh in the show notes of foresight group uh in the show notes of foresight group uh in the show notes of this podcast if you're listening to this this podcast if you're listening to this this podcast if you're listening to this podcast and you made it this far doesn't podcast and you made it this far doesn't podcast and you made it this far doesn't it deserve a five-star review I mean it deserve a five-star review I mean it deserve a five-star review I mean come on if you've never left us a review come on if you've never left us a review come on if you've never left us a review go leave a review today because this was go leave a review today because this was go leave a review today because this was gold Jenny thank you so much for hanging gold Jenny thank you so much for hanging gold Jenny thank you so much for hanging out with us if you happen to be watching out with us if you happen to be watching out with us if you happen to be watching on our YouTube channel you'll notice

on our YouTube channel you'll notice on our YouTube channel you'll notice that we have posted a discussion that we have posted a discussion that we have posted a discussion question at the top of the questions question at the top of the questions question at the top of the questions thread and we'd love to engage with you thread and we'd love to engage with you thread and we'd love to engage with you there uh so if you're watching on there uh so if you're watching on there uh so if you're watching on YouTube go check out that question YouTube go check out that question YouTube go check out that question answer the question and um yeah thanks answer the question and um yeah thanks answer the question and um yeah thanks again for tuning in to the missional again for tuning in to the missional again for tuning in to the missional marketing podcast we know have a choice marketing podcast we know have a choice marketing podcast we know have a choice about the podcasts that you listen to about the podcasts that you listen to about the podcasts that you listen to and that you watch and we consider a and that you watch and we consider a and that you watch and we consider a privilege that You' hang out with us privilege that You' hang out with us privilege that You' hang out with us that's it we'll see you guys next