Multisite is the New Normal | Jim Tomberlin

[Music] [Music] If you've got 300 people meeting in a If you've got 300 people meeting in a If you've got 300 people meeting in a auditorium of a thousand, it feels half auditorium of a thousand, it feels half auditorium of a thousand, it feels half empty. It's depressing. But if you've empty. It's depressing. But if you've empty. It's depressing. But if you've got 300 meeting in a room of 600 seats got 300 meeting in a room of 600 seats got 300 meeting in a room of 600 seats or even 200 people in it, it feels high or even 200 people in it, it feels high or even 200 people in it, it feels high energy. It feels exciting. There's energy. It feels exciting. There's energy. It feels exciting. There's something happening here. And so it something happening here. And so it something happening here. And so it small is the new big. You don't need big small is the new big. You don't need big small is the new big. You don't need big rooms. I'm Bart Blair and it's my rooms. I'm Bart Blair and it's my rooms. I'm Bart Blair and it's my privilege to welcome you to another privilege to welcome you to another privilege to welcome you to another episode of the Missional Marketing episode of the Missional Marketing episode of the Missional Marketing Podcast. We've been producing this Podcast. We've been producing this Podcast. We've been producing this podcast for over 5 years since the year podcast for over 5 years since the year podcast for over 5 years since the year 2020 with the goal of helping churches 2020 with the goal of helping churches 2020 with the goal of helping churches grow by leveraging digital marketing and grow by leveraging digital marketing and grow by leveraging digital marketing and effective communications. If you're new effective communications. If you're new effective communications. If you're new to the show, uh, welcome. Glad that to the show, uh, welcome. Glad that to the show, uh, welcome. Glad that you're hanging out with us today. We aim you're hanging out with us today. We aim you're hanging out with us today. We aim to drop a podcast episode every Friday to drop a podcast episode every Friday to drop a podcast episode every Friday and we miss a lot. So, my advice to you and we miss a lot. So, my advice to you and we miss a lot. So, my advice to you if you want some good advice is to go if you want some good advice is to go if you want some good advice is to go ahead and pull out your mobile device ahead and pull out your mobile device ahead and pull out your mobile device and subscribe wherever you're listening and subscribe wherever you're listening and subscribe wherever you're listening to this podcast episode today so that to this podcast episode today so that to this podcast episode today so that you don't miss any future episodes. uh you don't miss any future episodes. uh you don't miss any future episodes. uh if you just want to kind of try to tune if you just want to kind of try to tune if you just want to kind of try to tune in on Fridays, you might miss them from in on Fridays, you might miss them from in on Fridays, you might miss them from time to time, but because you've time to time, but because you've time to time, but because you've subscribed, they'll get delivered right subscribed, they'll get delivered right subscribed, they'll get delivered right to your mobile device and you won't miss to your mobile device and you won't miss to your mobile device and you won't miss any future episodes. I co-host this any future episodes. I co-host this any future episodes. I co-host this podcast with the CEO of Missional podcast with the CEO of Missional podcast with the CEO of Missional Marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. And it's Marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. And it's Marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. And it's our privilege to introduce you today to our privilege to introduce you today to our privilege to introduce you today to a friend of ours, a relatively recent a friend of ours, a relatively recent a friend of ours, a relatively recent acquaintance, friend of mine, and acquaintance, friend of mine, and acquaintance, friend of mine, and someone that Jason has actually known someone that Jason has actually known someone that Jason has actually known for quite a few years, Mr. Jim for quite a few years, Mr. Jim for quite a few years, Mr. Jim Tombberlin. Jim Toberlin is like the OG Tombberlin. Jim Toberlin is like the OG Tombberlin. Jim Toberlin is like the OG when it comes to multi-sight, when it comes to multi-sight, when it comes to multi-sight, multicampus churches. He's going to multicampus churches. He's going to multicampus churches. He's going to share a little bit of his story and uh a share a little bit of his story and uh a share a little bit of his story and uh a little bit of the history of multi-sight little bit of the history of multi-sight little bit of the history of multi-sight churches as well as talking about how

churches as well as talking about how churches as well as talking about how churches are leveraging multi-sight churches are leveraging multi-sight churches are leveraging multi-sight campusing, multi-sight launches for campusing, multi-sight launches for campusing, multi-sight launches for effective ministry today. So whether effective ministry today. So whether effective ministry today. So whether you're in a church that's uh thinking you're in a church that's uh thinking you're in a church that's uh thinking about being a multi-sight church or about being a multi-sight church or about being a multi-sight church or starting new campuses, maybe you're a starting new campuses, maybe you're a starting new campuses, maybe you're a comm's director uh and you're trying to comm's director uh and you're trying to comm's director uh and you're trying to figure out how to be more effective at figure out how to be more effective at figure out how to be more effective at communicating these things or even communicating these things or even communicating these things or even working with your team to navigate the working with your team to navigate the working with your team to navigate the uh uh the the the challenging waters of uh uh the the the challenging waters of uh uh the the the challenging waters of multiampus ministry. Or maybe none of multiampus ministry. Or maybe none of multiampus ministry. Or maybe none of those things apply to you, but you're those things apply to you, but you're those things apply to you, but you're just a church nerd and you want to learn just a church nerd and you want to learn just a church nerd and you want to learn a little bit more about multi-ampus a little bit more about multi-ampus a little bit more about multi-ampus churches, you've come to the right churches, you've come to the right churches, you've come to the right place. So again, thanks again for tuning place. So again, thanks again for tuning place. So again, thanks again for tuning in to the missional marketing podcast. in to the missional marketing podcast. in to the missional marketing podcast. Uh, and here without any further delay Uh, and here without any further delay Uh, and here without any further delay is Jason Hamrock and our interview with is Jason Hamrock and our interview with is Jason Hamrock and our interview with Mr. Jim Tombberlin. Mr. Jim Tombberlin. Mr. Jim Tombberlin. >> Well, hey Jim. How are you doing, man? >> Well, hey Jim. How are you doing, man? >> Well, hey Jim. How are you doing, man? Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. >> It's great to be with you, Jason. >> It's great to be with you, Jason. >> It's great to be with you, Jason. >> Great to have you. Oh, man. You've been >> Great to have you. Oh, man. You've been >> Great to have you. Oh, man. You've been you've been good this summer or been you've been good this summer or been you've been good this summer or been busy? busy? busy? >> It's been a full summer. It's been a >> It's been a full summer. It's been a >> It's been a full summer. It's been a busy summer. Had a good one. busy summer. Had a good one. busy summer. Had a good one. >> Yeah. You're you're up in the Colorado >> Yeah. You're you're up in the Colorado >> Yeah. You're you're up in the Colorado Springs area, uh, for our listeners. And Springs area, uh, for our listeners. And Springs area, uh, for our listeners. And so people who are not necessarily so people who are not necessarily so people who are not necessarily familiar with you, why don't you take a familiar with you, why don't you take a familiar with you, why don't you take a minute just give us your background and minute just give us your background and minute just give us your background and tell us a little about Jim, which could tell us a little about Jim, which could tell us a little about Jim, which could take an hour, but try to take an hour, but try to take an hour, but try to >> Yeah. Well, I know I I live in Colorado >> Yeah. Well, I know I I live in Colorado >> Yeah. Well, I know I I live in Colorado Springs. I've been in uh I um uh church Springs. I've been in uh I um uh church Springs. I've been in uh I um uh church ministry for 40 plus years and the um ministry for 40 plus years and the um ministry for 40 plus years and the um had a chance to be one of the early had a chance to be one of the early had a chance to be one of the early pioneers of the whole multi-sight church pioneers of the whole multi-sight church pioneers of the whole multi-sight church movement when I was the lead pastor of movement when I was the lead pastor of movement when I was the lead pastor of my church here with in Colorado Springs my church here with in Colorado Springs my church here with in Colorado Springs Woodman Valley Chapel and got gave me Woodman Valley Chapel and got gave me Woodman Valley Chapel and got gave me the opportunity invitation to come to the opportunity invitation to come to the opportunity invitation to come to Willow Creek in Chicago back in the year Willow Creek in Chicago back in the year Willow Creek in Chicago back in the year 2000 to develop that model there and

2000 to develop that model there and 2000 to develop that model there and while I was there and that was taking while I was there and that was taking while I was there and that was taking off churches were calling me from around off churches were calling me from around off churches were calling me from around the country could we talk to the the country could we talk to the the country could we talk to the multi-sight guy Nobody knew who Jim multi-sight guy Nobody knew who Jim multi-sight guy Nobody knew who Jim Tomlin was, but Tomlin was, but Tomlin was, but >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> he was this multi-sight guy uh um at at >> he was this multi-sight guy uh um at at >> he was this multi-sight guy uh um at at the church here and they would say, the church here and they would say, the church here and they would say, "Could you come talk to us about how you "Could you come talk to us about how you "Could you come talk to us about how you do this?" do this?" do this?" >> Well, that was in the early 2000s. >> Well, that was in the early 2000s. >> Well, that was in the early 2000s. Today, there's over uh 8,000 multi-sight Today, there's over uh 8,000 multi-sight Today, there's over uh 8,000 multi-sight churches. Um there is um uh it's not churches. Um there is um uh it's not churches. Um there is um uh it's not slowing down and uh there's been a lot slowing down and uh there's been a lot slowing down and uh there's been a lot of iterations of this movement, but uh of iterations of this movement, but uh of iterations of this movement, but uh it's become the new normal. That's one it's become the new normal. That's one it's become the new normal. That's one of our first talking points today. It's of our first talking points today. It's of our first talking points today. It's so it's a great privilege to be here so it's a great privilege to be here so it's a great privilege to be here with you and to talk more about with you and to talk more about with you and to talk more about something I love talking about what God something I love talking about what God something I love talking about what God is doing through the multi-sight church is doing through the multi-sight church is doing through the multi-sight church model and how it's transformed the model and how it's transformed the model and how it's transformed the church landscape across the nation and church landscape across the nation and church landscape across the nation and around the world now as well. around the world now as well. around the world now as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. I got to know Jim 20 years >> Yeah. Yeah. I got to know Jim 20 years >> Yeah. Yeah. I got to know Jim 20 years ago. Long time ago. He came to our ago. Long time ago. He came to our ago. Long time ago. He came to our church at Central Christian Church here church at Central Christian Church here church at Central Christian Church here in Arizona. At that point we were, you in Arizona. At that point we were, you in Arizona. At that point we were, you know, we were coming thinking like we know, we were coming thinking like we know, we were coming thinking like we had another campus. we're go like we're had another campus. we're go like we're had another campus. we're go like we're trying to figure this out and as a comm trying to figure this out and as a comm trying to figure this out and as a comm director you got my wheels just spinning director you got my wheels just spinning director you got my wheels just spinning like how how do you actually how do you like how how do you actually how do you like how how do you actually how do you actually scale for something like that actually scale for something like that actually scale for something like that to become multi- multia campus and we to become multi- multia campus and we to become multi- multia campus and we paid the stupid tax because we thought paid the stupid tax because we thought paid the stupid tax because we thought oh you just double everything and that's oh you just double everything and that's oh you just double everything and that's not that's not the answer you don't just not that's not the answer you don't just not that's not the answer you don't just double everything uh there's a strategy double everything uh there's a strategy double everything uh there's a strategy and Jim is the expert in how you become and Jim is the expert in how you become and Jim is the expert in how you become a multi-sight church he's been doing it a multi-sight church he's been doing it a multi-sight church he's been doing it for a long long time so uh it depend if for a long long time so uh it depend if for a long long time so uh it depend if if you're if you're executive pastor if you're if you're executive pastor if you're if you're executive pastor lead pastor really relevant for you if lead pastor really relevant for you if lead pastor really relevant for you if you're a comm's director is through the

you're a comm's director is through the you're a comm's director is through the lens of how do you actually become and lens of how do you actually become and lens of how do you actually become and if you are multi-sight how do you if you are multi-sight how do you if you are multi-sight how do you function better and more efficiently function better and more efficiently function better and more efficiently more effective as a comm's director in a more effective as a comm's director in a more effective as a comm's director in a multi-sight environment uh and there's a multi-sight environment uh and there's a multi-sight environment uh and there's a lot of things that we could we this lot of things that we could we this lot of things that we could we this could be could be could be >> well to your point Jason every team >> well to your point Jason every team >> well to your point Jason every team member every person on the staff of a member every person on the staff of a member every person on the staff of a church that goes multi-sight has a role church that goes multi-sight has a role church that goes multi-sight has a role to play to play to play >> and a contribution to make >> and a contribution to make >> and a contribution to make >> yeah totally totally my my first >> yeah totally totally my my first >> yeah totally totally my my first exposure to to Jim. Uh the first time we exposure to to Jim. Uh the first time we exposure to to Jim. Uh the first time we ever got to hang out together was the ever got to hang out together was the ever got to hang out together was the three of us were actually at a workshop three of us were actually at a workshop three of us were actually at a workshop in Colorado Springs just a month or so in Colorado Springs just a month or so in Colorado Springs just a month or so ago. So that was my first chance to to ago. So that was my first chance to to ago. So that was my first chance to to to meet Jim in person. But uh my first to meet Jim in person. But uh my first to meet Jim in person. But uh my first exposure to Jim wasn't related to exposure to Jim wasn't related to exposure to Jim wasn't related to multicight. It was uh related to a book multicight. It was uh related to a book multicight. It was uh related to a book that he wrote with Warren Bird called that he wrote with Warren Bird called that he wrote with Warren Bird called Better Together which is about church Better Together which is about church Better Together which is about church mergers. And uh one of these days I want mergers. And uh one of these days I want mergers. And uh one of these days I want to have a conversation with Jim on the to have a conversation with Jim on the to have a conversation with Jim on the concept of church mergers which you know concept of church mergers which you know concept of church mergers which you know in some cases results in multi-sight in some cases results in multi-sight in some cases results in multi-sight sometimes not. But uh that was my that sometimes not. But uh that was my that sometimes not. But uh that was my that was my first Jim Tarberlin book and I've was my first Jim Tarberlin book and I've was my first Jim Tarberlin book and I've been a fan ever since. So uh different been a fan ever since. So uh different been a fan ever since. So uh different conversation for a different day but conversation for a different day but conversation for a different day but just wanted to throw that out there just wanted to throw that out there just wanted to throw that out there because he's not just the multicight because he's not just the multicight because he's not just the multicight guy. I've always considered Jim to be guy. I've always considered Jim to be guy. I've always considered Jim to be the church mergers guy too. So there you the church mergers guy too. So there you the church mergers guy too. So there you go. Another handle for you. Well, well, go. Another handle for you. Well, well, go. Another handle for you. Well, well, Bart, it's funny you should say that Bart, it's funny you should say that Bart, it's funny you should say that because that's one of our talking points because that's one of our talking points because that's one of our talking points to this on this interview about mergers to this on this interview about mergers to this on this interview about mergers are the great opportunity now is as a are the great opportunity now is as a are the great opportunity now is as a part of the multi-sight movement.

part of the multi-sight movement. part of the multi-sight movement. Really, the kind of mergers we're seeing Really, the kind of mergers we're seeing Really, the kind of mergers we're seeing today was was really an outcome of and today was was really an outcome of and today was was really an outcome of and catalyzed by the multi-sight church catalyzed by the multi-sight church catalyzed by the multi-sight church movement. So, it is very much a part of movement. So, it is very much a part of movement. So, it is very much a part of the conversation about multi-sight. And the conversation about multi-sight. And the conversation about multi-sight. And so, we'll get there in a little while so, we'll get there in a little while so, we'll get there in a little while maybe. maybe. maybe. >> Yeah. Oh, I have a lot of questions >> Yeah. Oh, I have a lot of questions >> Yeah. Oh, I have a lot of questions there because I my mind goes crazy when there because I my mind goes crazy when there because I my mind goes crazy when I think about the next 15 or 20 years I think about the next 15 or 20 years I think about the next 15 or 20 years and churches that are older and that are and churches that are older and that are and churches that are older and that are that are dying um because they're not that are dying um because they're not that are dying um because they're not growing younger, they're growing older. growing younger, they're growing older. growing younger, they're growing older. Something has to change. And so my my Something has to change. And so my my Something has to change. And so my my thought was always well merge with a thought was always well merge with a thought was always well merge with a young growing church like you know young growing church like you know young growing church like you know really see your legacy continue to be really see your legacy continue to be really see your legacy continue to be played out while you're still here on played out while you're still here on played out while you're still here on earth before you go to heaven. So deeper earth before you go to heaven. So deeper earth before you go to heaven. So deeper conversation. conversation. conversation. >> We'll get there. We'll get there. >> We'll get there. We'll get there. >> We'll get there. We'll get there. >> We'll get there. All right. So, so the >> We'll get there. All right. So, so the >> We'll get there. All right. So, so the first kind of the first bullet point, first kind of the first bullet point, first kind of the first bullet point, which is such a good one, uh, which is such a good one, uh, which is such a good one, uh, multi-sight is the new normal. multi-sight is the new normal. multi-sight is the new normal. Multi-sight is the new normal. What do Multi-sight is the new normal. What do Multi-sight is the new normal. What do what do you mean by that? And what's what do you mean by that? And what's what do you mean by that? And what's that from your lens? What's that mean? that from your lens? What's that mean? that from your lens? What's that mean? >> Well, um, Jason, my journey with >> Well, um, Jason, my journey with >> Well, um, Jason, my journey with multicight church began when I was the multicight church began when I was the multicight church began when I was the pastor here in Colorado Springs in the pastor here in Colorado Springs in the pastor here in Colorado Springs in the mid 90s. Uh, I have a vi video I often mid 90s. Uh, I have a vi video I often mid 90s. Uh, I have a vi video I often introduce myself with where I'm casting introduce myself with where I'm casting introduce myself with where I'm casting the vision to my church and I'm standing the vision to my church and I'm standing the vision to my church and I'm standing out in a field with the Pikes Peak out in a field with the Pikes Peak out in a field with the Pikes Peak behind me, beautiful mountain range, and behind me, beautiful mountain range, and behind me, beautiful mountain range, and say as we approach the here in 1997 as say as we approach the here in 1997 as say as we approach the here in 1997 as we approach the 21st century, it's time we approach the 21st century, it's time we approach the 21st century, it's time to think about church in a new way. And to think about church in a new way. And to think about church in a new way. And so, so this movement has been around now so, so this movement has been around now so, so this movement has been around now for three about three decades plus for

for three about three decades plus for for three about three decades plus for the early pioneers. And it really took the early pioneers. And it really took the early pioneers. And it really took off in the turn of the century in this off in the turn of the century in this off in the turn of the century in this in this century. But when we say the new in this century. But when we say the new in this century. But when we say the new normal and for like any new idea, the normal and for like any new idea, the normal and for like any new idea, the question is is it is it a is it a fad or question is is it is it a is it a fad or question is is it is it a is it a fad or is it going to become uh established? Is is it going to become uh established? Is is it going to become uh established? Is it going to really become a part of the it going to really become a part of the it going to really become a part of the way churches think and operate today? way churches think and operate today? way churches think and operate today? And so today we would say clearly it's And so today we would say clearly it's And so today we would say clearly it's become the new normal. As I mentioned become the new normal. As I mentioned become the new normal. As I mentioned before, we know that 75% of all before, we know that 75% of all before, we know that 75% of all megaurches, a mega church is 2,000 megaurches, a mega church is 2,000 megaurches, a mega church is 2,000 people or more in attendance weekly. Uh people or more in attendance weekly. Uh people or more in attendance weekly. Uh 75% of them are are multi-sighted. And 75% of them are are multi-sighted. And 75% of them are are multi-sighted. And this is where this movement began with this is where this movement began with this is where this movement began with megaurches trying to solve a space megaurches trying to solve a space megaurches trying to solve a space problem or zoning restriction. That's problem or zoning restriction. That's problem or zoning restriction. That's how I started. And the first wave of how I started. And the first wave of how I started. And the first wave of multi-sight churches were mega churches multi-sight churches were mega churches multi-sight churches were mega churches that are trying to solve a space issue. that are trying to solve a space issue. that are trying to solve a space issue. But it very quickly evolved beyond that But it very quickly evolved beyond that But it very quickly evolved beyond that as a band-aid strategy for a facility or as a band-aid strategy for a facility or as a band-aid strategy for a facility or space problem. It became a recognizes space problem. It became a recognizes space problem. It became a recognizes this could be a really a more effective this could be a really a more effective this could be a really a more effective way of reaching more people having way of reaching more people having way of reaching more people having greater impact across your region. Today greater impact across your region. Today greater impact across your region. Today we know that churches over a thousand we know that churches over a thousand we know that churches over a thousand around a thousand is when churches tend around a thousand is when churches tend around a thousand is when churches tend to think that they begin to think and to think that they begin to think and to think that they begin to think and start down the multi-sight church path start down the multi-sight church path start down the multi-sight church path because they're big enough to be able to because they're big enough to be able to because they're big enough to be able to send out a significant enough enough send out a significant enough enough send out a significant enough enough people to launch a new location without people to launch a new location without people to launch a new location without it sinking the sending church. And so it sinking the sending church. And so it sinking the sending church. And so now we about 60% of churches over a now we about 60% of churches over a now we about 60% of churches over a thousand and that's a growing number uh thousand and that's a growing number uh thousand and that's a growing number uh are now multi-sighting. And so this has are now multi-sighting. And so this has are now multi-sighting. And so this has become a new normal for healthy growing become a new normal for healthy growing become a new normal for healthy growing churches. And the um but I really like churches. And the um but I really like churches. And the um but I really like to say this movement really began way to say this movement really began way to say this movement really began way back in the 70s 80s when there was this

back in the 70s 80s when there was this back in the 70s 80s when there was this really radical idea when I started out really radical idea when I started out really radical idea when I started out as a new pastor in that day. I'm um I'm as a new pastor in that day. I'm um I'm as a new pastor in that day. I'm um I'm really old and so u but um the uh it was really old and so u but um the uh it was really old and so u but um the uh it was this idea of being multiple services and this idea of being multiple services and this idea of being multiple services and you know from about 19 up until about you know from about 19 up until about you know from about 19 up until about 1975 or 80 America went to church at 1975 or 80 America went to church at 1975 or 80 America went to church at 9:30 Sunday school and 11:00 worship. 9:30 Sunday school and 11:00 worship. 9:30 Sunday school and 11:00 worship. That was the standard across the board. That was the standard across the board. That was the standard across the board. And and that was the old that was the And and that was the old that was the And and that was the old that was the old normal. old normal. old normal. >> That was the old normal. >> That was the old normal. >> That was the old normal. >> The old normal. >> The old normal. >> The old normal. >> So, uh, but then some churches began to >> So, uh, but then some churches began to >> So, uh, but then some churches began to grow and and they were we didn't have a grow and and they were we didn't have a grow and and they were we didn't have a lot of big churches, you know, you made lot of big churches, you know, you made lot of big churches, you know, you made a few hundred people maybe would be a a few hundred people maybe would be a a few hundred people maybe would be a big church in that day. And no, there's big church in that day. And no, there's big church in that day. And no, there's always a few exceptions. Everything I'm always a few exceptions. Everything I'm always a few exceptions. Everything I'm going to say to you, there's always an going to say to you, there's always an going to say to you, there's always an exception, but but that was the general exception, but but that was the general exception, but but that was the general flow. Churches just weren't that big. flow. Churches just weren't that big. flow. Churches just weren't that big. And so, but then they began to really And so, but then they began to really And so, but then they began to really grow as some some churches did in that grow as some some churches did in that grow as some some churches did in that end of the last century, 80s, 90s. And end of the last century, 80s, 90s. And end of the last century, 80s, 90s. And so we have these pastors are they have a so we have these pastors are they have a so we have these pastors are they have a full sanctuary of 500 seats and it's full sanctuary of 500 seats and it's full sanctuary of 500 seats and it's full and it's sitting empty at 9:30 full and it's sitting empty at 9:30 full and it's sitting empty at 9:30 and uh thinking well you know we're full and uh thinking well you know we're full and uh thinking well you know we're full here we're empty there what if we have here we're empty there what if we have here we're empty there what if we have two services well I'm telling you there two services well I'm telling you there two services well I'm telling you there was more push back about that idea that was more push back about that idea that was more push back about that idea that concept than um uh multicight had ca was concept than um uh multicight had ca was concept than um uh multicight had ca was when it came out you know later but um when it came out you know later but um when it came out you know later but um but many churches started down that path but many churches started down that path but many churches started down that path and then there was an idea maybe if we and then there was an idea maybe if we and then there was an idea maybe if we got two services how about free services got two services how about free services got two services how about free services and then uh and that's and some churches and then uh and that's and some churches and then uh and that's and some churches started to take off their they started started to take off their they started started to take off their they started to grow to grow to grow >> and then then the idea came well um a >> and then then the idea came well um a >> and then then the idea came well um a really radical idea hey what about

really radical idea hey what about really radical idea hey what about Saturday night we you know we could use Saturday night we you know we could use Saturday night we you know we could use the church on Saturday night and that the church on Saturday night and that the church on Saturday night and that was very radical and very uh suspected was very radical and very uh suspected was very radical and very uh suspected like we can't do church that's not like we can't do church that's not like we can't do church that's not biblical it's not on Sunday you know biblical it's not on Sunday you know biblical it's not on Sunday you know it's got to be Sunday it's got to be Sunday it's got to be Sunday >> and um but some churches did that and we >> and um but some churches did that and we >> and um but some churches did that and we um and I went through all these stages um and I went through all these stages um and I went through all these stages in my church in Colorado in the 90s in my church in Colorado in the 90s in my church in Colorado in the 90s >> and we had multiple services multiple >> and we had multiple services multiple >> and we had multiple services multiple days Saturday and then we said, "Hey, we days Saturday and then we said, "Hey, we days Saturday and then we said, "Hey, we got a fellowship all day in the got a fellowship all day in the got a fellowship all day in the basement. We could make that a closed basement. We could make that a closed basement. We could make that a closed circuit TV." It was before video and all circuit TV." It was before video and all circuit TV." It was before video and all that. It was a really bad experience, that. It was a really bad experience, that. It was a really bad experience, but we did it and people did it. And so, but we did it and people did it. And so, but we did it and people did it. And so, uh, and then it uh, and then it uh, and then it so you went from multiple services to so you went from multiple services to so you went from multiple services to multiple days to multiple rooms on your multiple days to multiple rooms on your multiple days to multiple rooms on your one location. It was inevitable we as one location. It was inevitable we as one location. It was inevitable we as the technology evolved that we do the technology evolved that we do the technology evolved that we do multiple locations. And so so this multiple locations. And so so this multiple locations. And so so this movement really began about 30 about 50 movement really began about 30 about 50 movement really began about 30 about 50 years ago with going from one service to years ago with going from one service to years ago with going from one service to two and that opened up a whole new way two and that opened up a whole new way two and that opened up a whole new way of thinking. So you know obviously if of thinking. So you know obviously if of thinking. So you know obviously if somebody's thinking about going multi- somebody's thinking about going multi- somebody's thinking about going multi- campus um you you get on your whiteboard campus um you you get on your whiteboard campus um you you get on your whiteboard put the pros and the and the cons right put the pros and the and the cons right put the pros and the and the cons right the positives the negatives. Um what's the positives the negatives. Um what's the positives the negatives. Um what's in your opinion between church planting in your opinion between church planting in your opinion between church planting versus multi-sight? What's the benefits versus multi-sight? What's the benefits versus multi-sight? What's the benefits or pros or cons? there's, you know, or pros or cons? there's, you know, or pros or cons? there's, you know, what's your thoughts on on on that when what's your thoughts on on on that when what's your thoughts on on on that when it comes to church planting?

it comes to church planting? it comes to church planting? >> Well, I I'm a part of the the >> Well, I I'm a part of the the >> Well, I I'm a part of the the exponential uh faculty that we I for 10 exponential uh faculty that we I for 10 exponential uh faculty that we I for 10 plus or more years I've been teaching plus or more years I've been teaching plus or more years I've been teaching with a with a team of others on church with a with a team of others on church with a with a team of others on church multiplication through multi-sight and multiplication through multi-sight and multiplication through multi-sight and and mergers. But, uh with the with and mergers. But, uh with the with and mergers. But, uh with the with exponential being the largest gathering exponential being the largest gathering exponential being the largest gathering of church planters on the planet, all of church planters on the planet, all of church planters on the planet, all about planting churches and and so 5,000 about planting churches and and so 5,000 about planting churches and and so 5,000 people every year for 19 years now. uh people every year for 19 years now. uh people every year for 19 years now. uh and every year's half the people 50% of and every year's half the people 50% of and every year's half the people 50% of them are are brand new. So I I'm a big them are are brand new. So I I'm a big them are are brand new. So I I'm a big advocate for for church planting and advocate for for church planting and advocate for for church planting and multi-sighting. I'm a part of both of multi-sighting. I'm a part of both of multi-sighting. I'm a part of both of those movements and there's been a huge those movements and there's been a huge those movements and there's been a huge movement of of a new kind of church movement of of a new kind of church movement of of a new kind of church plants that actually survive you know plants that actually survive you know plants that actually survive you know have a higher success rate because we've have a higher success rate because we've have a higher success rate because we've been a lot more intentional. I say all been a lot more intentional. I say all been a lot more intentional. I say all that to say at the end of the day that to say at the end of the day that to say at the end of the day whether you're a multi-sight campus or a whether you're a multi-sight campus or a whether you're a multi-sight campus or a church plant as far as the community church plant as far as the community church plant as far as the community that those uh congregations are in they that those uh congregations are in they that those uh congregations are in they don't know the difference between a don't know the difference between a don't know the difference between a multi-sight and a church plant. It's a multi-sight and a church plant. It's a multi-sight and a church plant. It's a church because a multi-sight campus is a church because a multi-sight campus is a church because a multi-sight campus is a fully functioning local congregation. fully functioning local congregation. fully functioning local congregation. How it got there, how it's governed, how How it got there, how it's governed, how How it got there, how it's governed, how the maybe the sermons are delivered the maybe the sermons are delivered the maybe the sermons are delivered video or live is almost irrelevant to video or live is almost irrelevant to video or live is almost irrelevant to the local community. if if it's making a the local community. if if it's making a the local community. if if it's making a difference in the community and people difference in the community and people difference in the community and people are gathering, you know, for weekly are gathering, you know, for weekly are gathering, you know, for weekly services and and all the things that h services and and all the things that h services and and all the things that h come along with a local church, it's a come along with a local church, it's a come along with a local church, it's a church. And so, but they have two church. And so, but they have two church. And so, but they have two different pathways to become a local different pathways to become a local different pathways to become a local congregation and a community. And I'm congregation and a community. And I'm congregation and a community. And I'm I'm for both. And but multi-sighting is I'm for both. And but multi-sighting is I'm for both. And but multi-sighting is really is all about reproducing my really is all about reproducing my really is all about reproducing my church.

church. church. >> Church planting is reproducing my kind >> Church planting is reproducing my kind >> Church planting is reproducing my kind of church. of church. of church. >> And that's what denominations have done >> And that's what denominations have done >> And that's what denominations have done for, you know, centuries. We, you know, for, you know, centuries. We, you know, for, you know, centuries. We, you know, every any denomination, they're not all every any denomination, they're not all every any denomination, they're not all exactly the same, but they have some exactly the same, but they have some exactly the same, but they have some common uh doctrine, legacy, traditions, common uh doctrine, legacy, traditions, common uh doctrine, legacy, traditions, and things that they uh that you can see and things that they uh that you can see and things that they uh that you can see reflected in those, but they can vary reflected in those, but they can vary reflected in those, but they can vary from one to the other. But a multi-sight from one to the other. But a multi-sight from one to the other. But a multi-sight church model, if you in its purest church model, if you in its purest church model, if you in its purest model, and I think in its most effective model, and I think in its most effective model, and I think in its most effective model is if this is not our kind of model is if this is not our kind of model is if this is not our kind of church, this is our church. church, this is our church. church, this is our church. Jason, I go I'll explain it this way a Jason, I go I'll explain it this way a Jason, I go I'll explain it this way a little further. I usually when churches little further. I usually when churches little further. I usually when churches bring me in, I was just in a church in bring me in, I was just in a church in bring me in, I was just in a church in in in LA. this this weekend and with an in in LA. this this weekend and with an in in LA. this this weekend and with an Asian-American church that's going to Asian-American church that's going to Asian-American church that's going to about 200 people. Incredible. Just about 200 people. Incredible. Just about 200 people. Incredible. Just taking off and and I have two one taking off and and I have two one taking off and and I have two one Saturday night and two s Sunday morning Saturday night and two s Sunday morning Saturday night and two s Sunday morning services again. New normal about uh you services again. New normal about uh you services again. New normal about uh you know at the end of the decade last year know at the end of the decade last year know at the end of the decade last year I mean last century um any healthy I mean last century um any healthy I mean last century um any healthy growing church was going to do multiple growing church was going to do multiple growing church was going to do multiple services. services. services. >> And so today we're seeing any healthy >> And so today we're seeing any healthy >> And so today we're seeing any healthy church is going to do eventually church is going to do eventually church is going to do eventually multiple campuses. And that's what multiple campuses. And that's what multiple campuses. And that's what they're at now. One location but three they're at now. One location but three they're at now. One location but three services. And so I say to them, "All services. And so I say to them, "All services. And so I say to them, "All right, you have a Saturday night and two right, you have a Saturday night and two right, you have a Saturday night and two Sunday mornings. Are they all the same?

Sunday mornings. Are they all the same? Sunday mornings. Are they all the same? I mean, do they all feel the same?" No, I mean, do they all feel the same?" No, I mean, do they all feel the same?" No, they all feel different, but are but are they all feel different, but are but are they all feel different, but are but are you three churches or are you one? And you three churches or are you one? And you three churches or are you one? And they'll say, "Well, we're one." And um they'll say, "Well, we're one." And um they'll say, "Well, we're one." And um so what makes you one? Well, we have one so what makes you one? Well, we have one so what makes you one? Well, we have one senior leader. We have one board, you senior leader. We have one board, you senior leader. We have one board, you know, of elders. We have one staff that know, of elders. We have one staff that know, of elders. We have one staff that ser uh we um do I said, "Do you take ser uh we um do I said, "Do you take ser uh we um do I said, "Do you take does each service get to keep its its does each service get to keep its its does each service get to keep its its income? It's uh offerings. No, it all income? It's uh offerings. No, it all income? It's uh offerings. No, it all goes to one one, you know, central bank. goes to one one, you know, central bank. goes to one one, you know, central bank. I said, "Well, now we're going to I said, "Well, now we're going to I said, "Well, now we're going to they're looking at starting in another they're looking at starting in another they're looking at starting in another location in the next town over in next location in the next town over in next location in the next town over in next year." And that's what I was there to year." And that's what I was there to year." And that's what I was there to help them think through. And I said, help them think through. And I said, help them think through. And I said, "When you start that other location, "When you start that other location, "When you start that other location, just think of that as your fourth just think of that as your fourth just think of that as your fourth service. The only thing different service. The only thing different service. The only thing different strategically is it's not it's a strategically is it's not it's a strategically is it's not it's a different geography, but everything else different geography, but everything else different geography, but everything else is the same as your three services on is the same as your three services on is the same as your three services on one site." And I think, "Ah, okay, I get one site." And I think, "Ah, okay, I get one site." And I think, "Ah, okay, I get it." So we're one church, multiple uh uh it." So we're one church, multiple uh uh it." So we're one church, multiple uh uh locations. That's multi-sight, but with locations. That's multi-sight, but with locations. That's multi-sight, but with one central leadership and one one one central leadership and one one one central leadership and one one budget. That's what makes multi-sight budget. That's what makes multi-sight budget. That's what makes multi-sight multi-sight.

multi-sight. multi-sight. >> When do churches so like when do they >> When do churches so like when do they >> When do churches so like when do they when do you think they get the nudge or when do you think they get the nudge or when do you think they get the nudge or the the Lord's leading them to become the the Lord's leading them to become the the Lord's leading them to become multi-sight? Like when does that happen multi-sight? Like when does that happen multi-sight? Like when does that happen or at what point does that happen or is or at what point does that happen or is or at what point does that happen or is there any metrics there that they should there any metrics there that they should there any metrics there that they should be considering? Well, I'm not sure be considering? Well, I'm not sure be considering? Well, I'm not sure they're doing metrics except the fact they're doing metrics except the fact they're doing metrics except the fact that mo churches that go multi-sight or that mo churches that go multi-sight or that mo churches that go multi-sight or that should go multi-sight is our church that should go multi-sight is our church that should go multi-sight is our church are growing churches. They're healthy are growing churches. They're healthy are growing churches. They're healthy churches. They're not perfect, but churches. They're not perfect, but churches. They're not perfect, but they're healthy growing churches. This they're healthy growing churches. This they're healthy growing churches. This is this is a is this is a is this is a >> healthy church strategy. This is not a >> healthy church strategy. This is not a >> healthy church strategy. This is not a turnaround strategy. So, if you're in turnaround strategy. So, if you're in turnaround strategy. So, if you're in decline or if you're not seeing new decline or if you're not seeing new decline or if you're not seeing new people come in, well, let's go start a people come in, well, let's go start a people come in, well, let's go start a multi-sight campus. Well, that that's multi-sight campus. Well, that that's multi-sight campus. Well, that that's multicight is all about reproducing and multicight is all about reproducing and multicight is all about reproducing and multiplying who and what you are. And so multiplying who and what you are. And so multiplying who and what you are. And so if you're stuck church or declining if you're stuck church or declining if you're stuck church or declining church, you're not reaching people. church, you're not reaching people. church, you're not reaching people. That's what you're going to multiply That's what you're going to multiply That's what you're going to multiply reproduce somewhere else, reproduce somewhere else, reproduce somewhere else, >> right? And so it's a waste of money. >> right? And so it's a waste of money. >> right? And so it's a waste of money. >> Now, but what we've seen is that around >> Now, but what we've seen is that around >> Now, but what we've seen is that around a thousand in attendance is when a thousand in attendance is when a thousand in attendance is when churches begin down the multi-sight churches begin down the multi-sight churches begin down the multi-sight path. And so, so it's not necessarily path. And so, so it's not necessarily path. And so, so it's not necessarily saying when we get to a thousand, we'll saying when we get to a thousand, we'll saying when we get to a thousand, we'll do multi-sight. It's more like, and I do multi-sight. It's more like, and I do multi-sight. It's more like, and I always tell churches, before you always tell churches, before you always tell churches, before you multi-side, just f make sure you're multi-side, just f make sure you're multi-side, just f make sure you're fully maximizing your current location.

fully maximizing your current location. fully maximizing your current location. Are you doing multiple services? No, Are you doing multiple services? No, Are you doing multiple services? No, we're only doing one. Well, then two, do we're only doing one. Well, then two, do we're only doing one. Well, then two, do two. You know, do as many as you can, at two. You know, do as many as you can, at two. You know, do as many as you can, at least two on Sunday morning. Some will least two on Sunday morning. Some will least two on Sunday morning. Some will do Saturday night. Some will do three do Saturday night. Some will do three do Saturday night. Some will do three Sunday morning. The But then, are you Sunday morning. The But then, are you Sunday morning. The But then, are you fully utilizing any other rooms on your fully utilizing any other rooms on your fully utilizing any other rooms on your campus? Is there a um campus? Is there a um campus? Is there a um a a fellowship hall or a student center a a fellowship hall or a student center a a fellowship hall or a student center or something that you could use on or something that you could use on or something that you could use on Sundays as a video venue? Not an Sundays as a video venue? Not an Sundays as a video venue? Not an overflow room, but as an alternative overflow room, but as an alternative overflow room, but as an alternative room, you know, where uh you might offer room, you know, where uh you might offer room, you know, where uh you might offer a little different atmosphere or a little different atmosphere or a little different atmosphere or whatever, but this but everything else whatever, but this but everything else whatever, but this but everything else is, you know, the the sermon is the is, you know, the the sermon is the is, you know, the the sermon is the same, etc. And then, of course, the same, etc. And then, of course, the same, etc. And then, of course, the Saturday night, that's another option Saturday night, that's another option Saturday night, that's another option for you. Fully, I like to say you want for you. Fully, I like to say you want for you. Fully, I like to say you want to be you want to be 11 months pregnant to be you want to be 11 months pregnant to be you want to be 11 months pregnant before you birth a multicight campus. before you birth a multicight campus. before you birth a multicight campus. >> Yeah. You want to be listen if you >> Yeah. You want to be listen if you >> Yeah. You want to be listen if you >> the scenes kind of a thing. Yeah. >> the scenes kind of a thing. Yeah. >> the scenes kind of a thing. Yeah. >> And if you can't if you can't reproduce >> And if you can't if you can't reproduce >> And if you can't if you can't reproduce yourself in two or three services, if yourself in two or three services, if yourself in two or three services, if you can't reproduce yourself in another you can't reproduce yourself in another you can't reproduce yourself in another room on your own one campus, then uh room on your own one campus, then uh room on your own one campus, then uh that's how you learn how you begin to that's how you learn how you begin to that's how you learn how you begin to learn how to become uh building learn how to become uh building learn how to become uh building reproducing yourself and and to do that reproducing yourself and and to do that reproducing yourself and and to do that it takes a a pipeline of volunteers and it takes a a pipeline of volunteers and it takes a a pipeline of volunteers and leaders that you're developing. All that leaders that you're developing. All that leaders that you're developing. All that sets you up really well to reproduce sets you up really well to reproduce sets you up really well to reproduce that in another geographical location.

that in another geographical location. that in another geographical location. >> What are some of the biggest um mistakes >> What are some of the biggest um mistakes >> What are some of the biggest um mistakes churches make when they're going churches make when they're going churches make when they're going multi-sight? multi-sight? multi-sight? >> Um they go too soon. For example, this >> Um they go too soon. For example, this >> Um they go too soon. For example, this church I was working with um they've had church I was working with um they've had church I was working with um they've had explosive growth and they're wellunded. explosive growth and they're wellunded. explosive growth and they're wellunded. They've got people are really giving to They've got people are really giving to They've got people are really giving to them. of money and and numbers of people them. of money and and numbers of people them. of money and and numbers of people is not the issue, but their growth is is not the issue, but their growth is is not the issue, but their growth is has really exceeded their uh their has really exceeded their uh their has really exceeded their uh their structure and their systems. And so they structure and their systems. And so they structure and their systems. And so they that that that on fire of a senior that that that on fire of a senior that that that on fire of a senior pastor who wants to launch a campus like pastor who wants to launch a campus like pastor who wants to launch a campus like um January of next year and I'm thinking um January of next year and I'm thinking um January of next year and I'm thinking maybe a year from January next year, maybe a year from January next year, maybe a year from January next year, you'll be ready because you've got to you'll be ready because you've got to you'll be ready because you've got to really um uh strengthen your base. really um uh strengthen your base. really um uh strengthen your base. They've got the number. They got all the They've got the number. They got all the They've got the number. They got all the right uh components going in the right right uh components going in the right right uh components going in the right direction in terms of their multi direction in terms of their multi direction in terms of their multi multigeneration, a lot of children, a multigeneration, a lot of children, a multigeneration, a lot of children, a lot of, you know, teenage kids, lot a lot of, you know, teenage kids, lot a lot of, you know, teenage kids, lot a lot of there's older adults, they have lot of there's older adults, they have lot of there's older adults, they have all that. They have wellunded and all all that. They have wellunded and all all that. They have wellunded and all that. They just don't have the that. They just don't have the that. They just don't have the structures and systems and and and and structures and systems and and and and structures and systems and and and and to get simple church, you got to keep to get simple church, you got to keep to get simple church, you got to keep things simple the bigger you get. And so things simple the bigger you get. And so things simple the bigger you get. And so they have a lot of complexity that's not they have a lot of complexity that's not they have a lot of complexity that's not necessary. So that's going to take about necessary. So that's going to take about necessary. So that's going to take about it usually takes about a year from when it usually takes about a year from when it usually takes about a year from when a church contacts me to say we we'd like a church contacts me to say we we'd like a church contacts me to say we we'd like to start down this path and it says to start down this path and it says to start down this path and it says usually about a 12 to 18 months um to um usually about a 12 to 18 months um to um usually about a 12 to 18 months um to um before you're ready.

before you're ready. before you're ready. >> So So rushing that's obviously a >> So So rushing that's obviously a >> So So rushing that's obviously a >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. >> problem. Um so when you say a church is >> problem. Um so when you say a church is >> problem. Um so when you say a church is running about a thousand I guess it's running about a thousand I guess it's running about a thousand I guess it's it's more obviously what what's the Lord it's more obviously what what's the Lord it's more obviously what what's the Lord what's the spirit telling you to do? But what's the spirit telling you to do? But what's the spirit telling you to do? But if you're getting that sort of that if you're getting that sort of that if you're getting that sort of that busting at the seams, depends on how big busting at the seams, depends on how big busting at the seams, depends on how big your room is and I'm sure all those all your room is and I'm sure all those all your room is and I'm sure all those all those factors play into it. Um, but you those factors play into it. Um, but you those factors play into it. Um, but you really should be thinking about like in really should be thinking about like in really should be thinking about like in the next two years kind of a thing, the next two years kind of a thing, the next two years kind of a thing, right? Not hey next by Easter, it's right? Not hey next by Easter, it's right? Not hey next by Easter, it's August, by Easter we need to have a August, by Easter we need to have a August, by Easter we need to have a whole another campus up and running. whole another campus up and running. whole another campus up and running. That's not not a good strategy. That's not not a good strategy. That's not not a good strategy. >> Yes. I think another mistake that church >> Yes. I think another mistake that church >> Yes. I think another mistake that church multi-sight churches make and that is multi-sight churches make and that is multi-sight churches make and that is that um they they that um they they that um they they appoint the wrong kind of leader what we appoint the wrong kind of leader what we appoint the wrong kind of leader what we call campus pastor at those sites. M call campus pastor at those sites. M call campus pastor at those sites. M >> I think in the early days of the >> I think in the early days of the >> I think in the early days of the multi-ight movement when uh you know and multi-ight movement when uh you know and multi-ight movement when uh you know and it was with the mega churches that have it was with the mega churches that have it was with the mega churches that have strong leaders, senior pastors some and strong leaders, senior pastors some and strong leaders, senior pastors some and strong communicators and so the video strong communicators and so the video strong communicators and so the video model was the predominant one and it model was the predominant one and it model was the predominant one and it still is even though they're not not still is even though they're not not still is even though they're not not everyone does that. Uh they would be everyone does that. Uh they would be everyone does that. Uh they would be there was this mindset, hey we have a there was this mindset, hey we have a there was this mindset, hey we have a great leader already. We you know he's great leader already. We you know he's great leader already. We you know he's he's grown our church this church to he's grown our church this church to he's grown our church this church to several thousand people. He's a great several thousand people. He's a great several thousand people. He's a great communicator because that's um or the communicator because that's um or the communicator because that's um or the team is a great communicating team team is a great communicating team team is a great communicating team because that's how you draw people in because that's how you draw people in because that's how you draw people in one of the ways.

one of the ways. one of the ways. >> And so, and we're just going to deliver >> And so, and we're just going to deliver >> And so, and we're just going to deliver the message by way of video. And so, we the message by way of video. And so, we the message by way of video. And so, we don't need a leader. We don't need a don't need a leader. We don't need a don't need a leader. We don't need a teacher at the site. We just need teacher at the site. We just need teacher at the site. We just need someone who will love the local people someone who will love the local people someone who will love the local people and push play, and push play, and push play, >> so to speak. Push the video play, you >> so to speak. Push the video play, you >> so to speak. Push the video play, you know. know. know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And very quickly we realized, no, it >> And very quickly we realized, no, it >> And very quickly we realized, no, it takes um it takes a leader to takes um it takes a leader to takes um it takes a leader to grow a local congregation. You may give grow a local congregation. You may give grow a local congregation. You may give them a lot of the great assets and them a lot of the great assets and them a lot of the great assets and resources that that sending church is resources that that sending church is resources that that sending church is bringing to that table, but you need a bringing to that table, but you need a bringing to that table, but you need a local leader who uh will uh mobilize local leader who uh will uh mobilize local leader who uh will uh mobilize people, turn volunteers into volunteers, people, turn volunteers into volunteers, people, turn volunteers into volunteers, volunteers into leaders who can um help volunteers into leaders who can um help volunteers into leaders who can um help go get to multiple services and all that go get to multiple services and all that go get to multiple services and all that kind of stuff. That takes a leader. Not kind of stuff. That takes a leader. Not kind of stuff. That takes a leader. Not just just just >> they have to be they have to be a >> they have to be they have to be a >> they have to be they have to be a high-capacity galvanizer, not high-capacity galvanizer, not high-capacity galvanizer, not necessarily a visionary leader, right? necessarily a visionary leader, right? necessarily a visionary leader, right? The senior leader is typically the The senior leader is typically the The senior leader is typically the visionary leader, but they have to be visionary leader, but they have to be visionary leader, but they have to be able to galvanize people. able to galvanize people. able to galvanize people. >> They and they have to implement the >> They and they have to implement the >> They and they have to implement the leader's vision. And so this is the leader's vision. And so this is the leader's vision. And so this is the difference a church plant is difference a church plant is difference a church plant is >> a church planter might say, "Hey, I love >> a church planter might say, "Hey, I love >> a church planter might say, "Hey, I love your vision, you know, church, uh, but I your vision, you know, church, uh, but I your vision, you know, church, uh, but I don't want to do it your way. I want to don't want to do it your way. I want to don't want to do it your way. I want to go I have a different vision." That go I have a different vision." That go I have a different vision." That person should go be a plant church person should go be a plant church person should go be a plant church planter. But the the ideal campus pastor planter. But the the ideal campus pastor planter. But the the ideal campus pastor is someone who has and we've done the is someone who has and we've done the is someone who has and we've done the surveys. What makes a good what's surveys. What makes a good what's surveys. What makes a good what's effective campus pastor? Two things.

effective campus pastor? Two things. effective campus pastor? Two things. They they are a big strong leader that They they are a big strong leader that They they are a big strong leader that people follow and they also have the DNA people follow and they also have the DNA people follow and they also have the DNA of your church. They believe in the of your church. They believe in the of your church. They believe in the mission and the vision. Uh when I was at mission and the vision. Uh when I was at mission and the vision. Uh when I was at Willow Creek, we used to say uh campus Willow Creek, we used to say uh campus Willow Creek, we used to say uh campus pastors that we appoint have to when you pastors that we appoint have to when you pastors that we appoint have to when you cut them, they bleed willow. They they cut them, they bleed willow. They they cut them, they bleed willow. They they now that doesn't mean they're they not now that doesn't mean they're they not now that doesn't mean they're they not leaders. They just have chosen, I'd leaders. They just have chosen, I'd leaders. They just have chosen, I'd rather be on a winning team than be a rather be on a winning team than be a rather be on a winning team than be a team owner. I'd rather be a team player team owner. I'd rather be a team player team owner. I'd rather be a team player than a team owner. And which is better? than a team owner. And which is better? than a team owner. And which is better? Both are better. We need both. And I'm a Both are better. We need both. And I'm a Both are better. We need both. And I'm a fan for both. But once a person fan for both. But once a person fan for both. But once a person understands I I'm not wired to be a team understands I I'm not wired to be a team understands I I'm not wired to be a team player. I'm really lied to. I I I got to player. I'm really lied to. I I I got to player. I'm really lied to. I I I got to go do this myself and have a way of go do this myself and have a way of go do this myself and have a way of doing church. And thank God for those doing church. And thank God for those doing church. And thank God for those people because every church we have people because every church we have people because every church we have today that started new had someone who today that started new had someone who today that started new had someone who had a vision for what church could be. had a vision for what church could be. had a vision for what church could be. and your church Jason was one of those and your church Jason was one of those and your church Jason was one of those churches you know. churches you know. churches you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And um >> And um >> And um >> so that that's a bit the most important >> so that that's a bit the most important >> so that that's a bit the most important decision going multi-sight is the is the decision going multi-sight is the is the decision going multi-sight is the is the local campus pastor decision.

local campus pastor decision. local campus pastor decision. >> You can I ask about >> You can I ask about >> You can I ask about >> can I ask about um location and >> can I ask about um location and >> can I ask about um location and proximity? Um you know we see I've seen proximity? Um you know we see I've seen proximity? Um you know we see I've seen more and more now churches that are more and more now churches that are more and more now churches that are launching campuses like across states. launching campuses like across states. launching campuses like across states. So church in Colorado has a campus in So church in Colorado has a campus in So church in Colorado has a campus in Austin, Texas, you know, um versus I Austin, Texas, you know, um versus I Austin, Texas, you know, um versus I have also seen a church launch a campus have also seen a church launch a campus have also seen a church launch a campus that was actually ended up in the long that was actually ended up in the long that was actually ended up in the long run being too close by and ended up run being too close by and ended up run being too close by and ended up having to fold that second campus having to fold that second campus having to fold that second campus because the proximity was just there was because the proximity was just there was because the proximity was just there was they were almost competing with each they were almost competing with each they were almost competing with each other. They were too near each other. other. They were too near each other. other. They were too near each other. Can you talk about how you would coach Can you talk about how you would coach Can you talk about how you would coach churches on how to decide where to be? churches on how to decide where to be? churches on how to decide where to be? But yeah, we you know again this But yeah, we you know again this But yeah, we you know again this movement's been around long enough that movement's been around long enough that movement's been around long enough that we have a lot of best practices. I like we have a lot of best practices. I like we have a lot of best practices. I like to say to churches, you know, there in to say to churches, you know, there in to say to churches, you know, there in the early days there's a lot of ways to the early days there's a lot of ways to the early days there's a lot of ways to do multi-sight. There are a lot of ways do multi-sight. There are a lot of ways do multi-sight. There are a lot of ways that people were playing with do that people were playing with do that people were playing with do multi-sight. But then but I want to multi-sight. But then but I want to multi-sight. But then but I want to share with you here are the best ways to share with you here are the best ways to share with you here are the best ways to do multi-sight. do multi-sight. do multi-sight. >> And what we one of those is is where do >> And what we one of those is is where do >> And what we one of those is is where do you launch campuses? In all of our you launch campuses? In all of our you launch campuses? In all of our surveys, in all of our experience, the surveys, in all of our experience, the surveys, in all of our experience, the the sweet spot is between 15 and 30 the sweet spot is between 15 and 30 the sweet spot is between 15 and 30 minutes from the sending campus. Usually minutes from the sending campus. Usually minutes from the sending campus. Usually right around 20 minutes is the ideal right around 20 minutes is the ideal right around 20 minutes is the ideal place. Now, here's the reason why the place. Now, here's the reason why the place. Now, here's the reason why the vast majority of people who in every vast majority of people who in every vast majority of people who in every church in America and even outside of church in America and even outside of church in America and even outside of the US in terms of any place that's more the US in terms of any place that's more the US in terms of any place that's more westernized with automobiles and all westernized with automobiles and all westernized with automobiles and all that that the average the majority of that that the average the majority of that that the average the majority of the people who attend your church live the people who attend your church live the people who attend your church live within 15 minute drive. We're talking within 15 minute drive. We're talking within 15 minute drive. We're talking anywhere from about 60 to 75% of the anywhere from about 60 to 75% of the anywhere from about 60 to 75% of the people who attend a local church live

people who attend a local church live people who attend a local church live within 15 minutes. And the other within 15 minutes. And the other within 15 minutes. And the other >> 15 to 30% are between 15 and 30 minutes. >> 15 to 30% are between 15 and 30 minutes. >> 15 to 30% are between 15 and 30 minutes. >> Very few people are going to drive more >> Very few people are going to drive more >> Very few people are going to drive more than 30 minutes to a church, than 30 minutes to a church, than 30 minutes to a church, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Unless you're in a very rural area and >> Unless you're in a very rural area and >> Unless you're in a very rural area and there's not a lot of options. And so, there's not a lot of options. And so, there's not a lot of options. And so, um, we know that the people who are the um, we know that the people who are the um, we know that the people who are the most involved in a local church and most involved in a local church and most involved in a local church and those who serve and then those who serve those who serve and then those who serve those who serve and then those who serve tend to be those who give. they they tend to be those who give. they they tend to be those who give. they they come from the 15minute perimeter around come from the 15minute perimeter around come from the 15minute perimeter around your church because they're they can be your church because they're they can be your church because they're they can be in involved and engaged in the training in involved and engaged in the training in involved and engaged in the training and other things that come along with and other things that come along with and other things that come along with involvement because it's only 10 involvement because it's only 10 involvement because it's only 10 minutes, 15 minutes, five minutes away. minutes, 15 minutes, five minutes away. minutes, 15 minutes, five minutes away. But when you so they tend to be the But when you so they tend to be the But when you so they tend to be the participators, the people in the 15 to participators, the people in the 15 to participators, the people in the 15 to 30 range minute range tend to be more 30 range minute range tend to be more 30 range minute range tend to be more spectators. Not because they want to be, spectators. Not because they want to be, spectators. Not because they want to be, but just because it's just not easy to but just because it's just not easy to but just because it's just not easy to get to them, especially in a dense place get to them, especially in a dense place get to them, especially in a dense place like LA during the week here. So, like LA during the week here. So, like LA during the week here. So, >> or Phoenix, like where you guys, let's >> or Phoenix, like where you guys, let's >> or Phoenix, like where you guys, let's see. Are you Are you still there, Jason? see. Are you Are you still there, Jason? see. Are you Are you still there, Jason? In Phoenix? In Phoenix? In Phoenix? >> Phoenix. Yeah. Gilbert. >> Phoenix. Yeah. Gilbert. >> Phoenix. Yeah. Gilbert. >> Um, but um so >> Um, but um so >> Um, but um so in the starting with churches, the the in the starting with churches, the the in the starting with churches, the the and and the other thing that's made and and the other thing that's made and and the other thing that's made multi-sight so effective and so multi-sight so effective and so multi-sight so effective and so successful is that you're not going to successful is that you're not going to successful is that you're not going to the next town 20 minutes away. You're the next town 20 minutes away. You're the next town 20 minutes away. You're already there.

already there. already there. So the first thing that we do when we So the first thing that we do when we So the first thing that we do when we start thinking down that path, we do a start thinking down that path, we do a start thinking down that path, we do a heat map of where where a heat map of heat map of where where a heat map of heat map of where where a heat map of your database. Where are all of our your database. Where are all of our your database. Where are all of our people that are attending our church or people that are attending our church or people that are attending our church or who have some connection with our church who have some connection with our church who have some connection with our church who filled out at least a name card at who filled out at least a name card at who filled out at least a name card at one time or another or gave a donation one time or another or gave a donation one time or another or gave a donation or whatever, they um where do they where or whatever, they um where do they where or whatever, they um where do they where they where are they? And so when we look they where are they? And so when we look they where are they? And so when we look at all these pockets of people around at all these pockets of people around at all these pockets of people around that 15 to 30 minute range around your that 15 to 30 minute range around your that 15 to 30 minute range around your church, uh that's where you go. That's church, uh that's where you go. That's church, uh that's where you go. That's where you start because you're not where you start because you're not where you start because you're not you're not sending people there. They you're not sending people there. They you're not sending people there. They already there. already there. already there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They already and they already have know >> They already and they already have know >> They already and they already have know and love your church and and have the and love your church and and have the and love your church and and have the DNA of your church. And so that's the DNA of your church. And so that's the DNA of your church. And so that's the the obvious place to go. That's what a the obvious place to go. That's what a the obvious place to go. That's what a church planter does not have. You know, church planter does not have. You know, church planter does not have. You know, the Apostle Paul said, "I want to go the Apostle Paul said, "I want to go the Apostle Paul said, "I want to go where no man's gone before. I want to go where no man's gone before. I want to go where no man's gone before. I want to go to the farthest extensions of the Roman to the farthest extensions of the Roman to the farthest extensions of the Roman Empire." And thank God for those kind of Empire." And thank God for those kind of Empire." And thank God for those kind of people who were pioneers. But it's just people who were pioneers. But it's just people who were pioneers. But it's just the opposite for multi-sight launches. the opposite for multi-sight launches. the opposite for multi-sight launches. you're going where you have a base. Now, you're going where you have a base. Now, you're going where you have a base. Now, after you get that lowhanging fruit of after you get that lowhanging fruit of after you get that lowhanging fruit of three or four campuses in your region three or four campuses in your region three or four campuses in your region um and this is where uh where the um and this is where uh where the um and this is where uh where the internet and online campus helps and internet and online campus helps and internet and online campus helps and this is dramatically changed since co in this is dramatically changed since co in this is dramatically changed since co in co anybody who was debating whether co anybody who was debating whether co anybody who was debating whether multi-sight on on you know sermons on multi-sight on on you know sermons on multi-sight on on you know sermons on video and all that or even the video and all that or even the video and all that or even the multi-sight model was a question mark multi-sight model was a question mark multi-sight model was a question mark during co every church in America was a during co every church in America was a during co every church in America was a multi-sight church. They had they had on multi-sight church. They had they had on multi-sight church. They had they had on onsite campus that some robots were but onsite campus that some robots were but onsite campus that some robots were but they were online too and uh and so that

they were online too and uh and so that they were online too and uh and so that concept that argument sort of just died concept that argument sort of just died concept that argument sort of just died after co in terms of does it work? Yes. after co in terms of does it work? Yes. after co in terms of does it work? Yes. You know but it also ex um churches now You know but it also ex um churches now You know but it also ex um churches now are not limited to 30 minutes 60 minutes are not limited to 30 minutes 60 minutes are not limited to 30 minutes 60 minutes around themselves. You know they can be around themselves. You know they can be around themselves. You know they can be all over the world. all over the world. all over the world. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Now most people online are are within >> Now most people online are are within >> Now most people online are are within within 60 minutes or so who watch you within 60 minutes or so who watch you within 60 minutes or so who watch you from what our surveys have shown. from what our surveys have shown. from what our surveys have shown. >> Yeah. We're always watching what's, you >> Yeah. We're always watching what's, you >> Yeah. We're always watching what's, you know, who's watching us and and but know, who's watching us and and but know, who's watching us and and but smart churches today have realized uh smart churches today have realized uh smart churches today have realized uh that online, that's one of the talking that online, that's one of the talking that online, that's one of the talking points. Online is the new front door to points. Online is the new front door to points. Online is the new front door to the church. the church. the church. >> People are going to check you out there >> People are going to check you out there >> People are going to check you out there first. first. first. >> And it's not limited to geography. And >> And it's not limited to geography. And >> And it's not limited to geography. And so when you've got some really dynamic so when you've got some really dynamic so when you've got some really dynamic communicators and and and and a vibrant communicators and and and and a vibrant communicators and and and and a vibrant church ministry that's, you know, that church ministry that's, you know, that church ministry that's, you know, that they're experiencing online, Life Church they're experiencing online, Life Church they're experiencing online, Life Church for years had way ahead of the game. for years had way ahead of the game. for years had way ahead of the game. they would have 3,000 people in another they would have 3,000 people in another they would have 3,000 people in another city in America that was watching them. city in America that was watching them. city in America that was watching them. So they just go and meet with them or So they just go and meet with them or So they just go and meet with them or they would be invited, could you guys they would be invited, could you guys they would be invited, could you guys come launch a campus here? And so so now come launch a campus here? And so so now come launch a campus here? And so so now we're not we're not bound by geography, we're not we're not bound by geography, we're not we're not bound by geography, but we certainly still leverage it at but we certainly still leverage it at but we certainly still leverage it at least in the early stages of of getting least in the early stages of of getting least in the early stages of of getting through three local campuses. Now I through three local campuses. Now I through three local campuses. Now I think the vast majority of churches will think the vast majority of churches will think the vast majority of churches will and only about 25% of multi-ight and only about 25% of multi-ight and only about 25% of multi-ight churches go beyond three locations.

churches go beyond three locations. churches go beyond three locations. And uh and that's okay. Others will And uh and that's okay. Others will And uh and that's okay. Others will others will um because again that's the others will um because again that's the others will um because again that's the lowhanging fruit. It's like offering two lowhanging fruit. It's like offering two lowhanging fruit. It's like offering two or three service times. or three service times. or three service times. >> Now we're that's what we're saying it's >> Now we're that's what we're saying it's >> Now we're that's what we're saying it's the new normal. Now those kind of the new normal. Now those kind of the new normal. Now those kind of churches are going to do at least two or churches are going to do at least two or churches are going to do at least two or three locations. three locations. three locations. >> Well I think it's the hardest is going >> Well I think it's the hardest is going >> Well I think it's the hardest is going from one to two maybe two to three but from one to two maybe two to three but from one to two maybe two to three but once you go to four, five, and six it's once you go to four, five, and six it's once you go to four, five, and six it's like piece of cake because you like piece of cake because you like piece of cake because you >> the hardest is one to two because it's >> the hardest is one to two because it's >> the hardest is one to two because it's unknown. unknown. unknown. >> It's hard and very few get beyond four >> It's hard and very few get beyond four >> It's hard and very few get beyond four locations or three loca you know three. locations or three loca you know three. locations or three loca you know three. I'm talking about three including the I'm talking about three including the I'm talking about three including the sin the original sin the original sin the original >> but that fourth location forces you to >> but that fourth location forces you to >> but that fourth location forces you to make some structural changes and many make some structural changes and many make some structural changes and many churches aren't willing to do that churches aren't willing to do that churches aren't willing to do that >> but those who are willing to say we have >> but those who are willing to say we have >> but those who are willing to say we have to reorganize to support four but to reorganize to support four but to reorganize to support four but there's one to three is one phase there's one to three is one phase there's one to three is one phase >> four to 10 is the next one >> four to 10 is the next one >> four to 10 is the next one >> and then 10 plus is another one and we >> and then 10 plus is another one and we >> and then 10 plus is another one and we have have have >> you're a whole another level if that's >> you're a whole another level if that's >> you're a whole another level if that's >> yeah and you got to keep constantly re >> yeah and you got to keep constantly re >> yeah and you got to keep constantly re uh restructuring to support a growing uh restructuring to support a growing uh restructuring to support a growing multi-sight model but many are like I multi-sight model but many are like I multi-sight model but many are like I don't want to pay that price we're just don't want to pay that price we're just don't want to pay that price we're just as comfortable be a local church in our as comfortable be a local church in our as comfortable be a local church in our greater county or town or city or greater county or town or city or greater county or town or city or whatever and that's fine but um but some whatever and that's fine but um but some whatever and that's fine but um but some will go beyond that and what kind of go will go beyond that and what kind of go will go beyond that and what kind of go ahead ahead ahead >> well what kind of advice do you have for >> well what kind of advice do you have for >> well what kind of advice do you have for communications communication directors communications communication directors communications communication directors when they're getting ready to go when they're getting ready to go when they're getting ready to go multi-sight they're already multi-sight multi-sight they're already multi-sight multi-sight they're already multi-sight what are there any nuggets of wisdom what are there any nuggets of wisdom what are there any nuggets of wisdom that you could share uh for people like that you could share uh for people like that you could share uh for people like us us us >> well again I think uh we we've seen a >> well again I think uh we we've seen a >> well again I think uh we we've seen a correlation that the growing churches correlation that the growing churches correlation that the growing churches And postco And postco And postco there is there's about 20% of the there is there's about 20% of the there is there's about 20% of the churches in America that are

churches in America that are churches in America that are experiencing dramatic growth. I mean not experiencing dramatic growth. I mean not experiencing dramatic growth. I mean not what's considered a growing church is 5% what's considered a growing church is 5% what's considered a growing church is 5% a year a year a year >> right there >> right there >> right there >> and 15 20 25% you know year >> and 15 20 25% you know year >> and 15 20 25% you know year >> two three years in a row. >> two three years in a row. >> two three years in a row. >> Uh and the mega the larger churches are >> Uh and the mega the larger churches are >> Uh and the mega the larger churches are getting a bigger percentage of the total getting a bigger percentage of the total getting a bigger percentage of the total church attendance. You have to realize church attendance. You have to realize church attendance. You have to realize that the average church in America today that the average church in America today that the average church in America today is 65 people. is 65 people. is 65 people. >> Yeah. And there's 320,000 Protestant >> Yeah. And there's 320,000 Protestant >> Yeah. And there's 320,000 Protestant churches. So, uh, so you asked a churches. So, uh, so you asked a churches. So, uh, so you asked a question about how do commun how does question about how do commun how does question about how do commun how does the communication piece fit in this? The the communication piece fit in this? The the communication piece fit in this? The I I think uh every church today that's I I think uh every church today that's I I think uh every church today that's growing has to have a communication a growing has to have a communication a growing has to have a communication a point person on the staff that's point person on the staff that's point person on the staff that's managing communications. But their managing communications. But their managing communications. But their website just keeping things current website just keeping things current website just keeping things current there information there and not just there information there and not just there information there and not just static but engaging website they they static but engaging website they they static but engaging website they they have to be um then there's the whole have to be um then there's the whole have to be um then there's the whole social media getting our message out you social media getting our message out you social media getting our message out you know um the there's a correlation know um the there's a correlation know um the there's a correlation between the growing churches in America between the growing churches in America between the growing churches in America as they're growing on site I call it as they're growing on site I call it as they're growing on site I call it they also are growing online and the they also are growing online and the they also are growing online and the churches that are inclined are declining churches that are inclined are declining churches that are inclined are declining in both so there's a correlation what in both so there's a correlation what in both so there's a correlation what we're still trying to figure out Jason we're still trying to figure out Jason we're still trying to figure out Jason and Bard is that um what is the and Bard is that um what is the and Bard is that um what is the correlation Is it that if you want to correlation Is it that if you want to correlation Is it that if you want to grow on site, do you have twice as many grow on site, do you have twice as many grow on site, do you have twice as many online? Some do. Some have three times online? Some do. Some have three times online? Some do. Some have three times as many, but some other growing churches as many, but some other growing churches as many, but some other growing churches have it's one to one. You know, we have have it's one to one. You know, we have have it's one to one. You know, we have 2,000 people in the room and we have 2,000 people in the room and we have 2,000 people in the room and we have 2,000 people online. Some will have 2,000 people online. Some will have 2,000 people online. Some will have less. My church that I just came from, less. My church that I just came from, less. My church that I just came from, they had less, but they weren't they they had less, but they weren't they they had less, but they weren't they weren't even working it. You know, they weren't even working it. You know, they weren't even working it. You know, they just getting their sermon out basically.

just getting their sermon out basically. just getting their sermon out basically. And but but but all of those though And but but but all of those though And but but but all of those though whatever whatever it is and we're trying whatever whatever it is and we're trying whatever whatever it is and we're trying to figure out what's the right ratio to figure out what's the right ratio to figure out what's the right ratio which and which feeds look online in my which and which feeds look online in my which and which feeds look online in my opinion clearly feeds into on-site opinion clearly feeds into on-site opinion clearly feeds into on-site because people are going to visit your because people are going to visit your because people are going to visit your church two or three times online. church two or three times online. church two or three times online. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And so so if you want to grow your >> And so so if you want to grow your >> And so so if you want to grow your on-site you need to grow your online on-site you need to grow your online on-site you need to grow your online presence and you it needs to be a high presence and you it needs to be a high presence and you it needs to be a high quality experience online. quality experience online. quality experience online. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you got to up that game. And this is >> And you got to up that game. And this is >> And you got to up that game. And this is what I know you guys do so well, helping what I know you guys do so well, helping what I know you guys do so well, helping churches get their and then le churches get their and then le churches get their and then le leveraging social media. We also know leveraging social media. We also know leveraging social media. We also know the whole geo targeting now has been the whole geo targeting now has been the whole geo targeting now has been revolutionized. revolutionized. revolutionized. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Not just advertising to our church >> Not just advertising to our church >> Not just advertising to our church members and family, you know, we're members and family, you know, we're members and family, you know, we're going to start a campus in the next town going to start a campus in the next town going to start a campus in the next town and make and newsletters and billboards, and make and newsletters and billboards, and make and newsletters and billboards, but now we can send, as you know, but now we can send, as you know, but now we can send, as you know, Facebook messages to people who would be Facebook messages to people who would be Facebook messages to people who would be good candidates good candidates good candidates values-wise, etc. to, you know, come values-wise, etc. to, you know, come values-wise, etc. to, you know, come visit our new new church opening. And so visit our new new church opening. And so visit our new new church opening. And so all the communications is a huge player all the communications is a huge player all the communications is a huge player now in local churches.

now in local churches. now in local churches. >> Yeah. You have a Yeah. I mean, I could >> Yeah. You have a Yeah. I mean, I could >> Yeah. You have a Yeah. I mean, I could spend I could just talk for an hour on spend I could just talk for an hour on spend I could just talk for an hour on the things I learned going from one the things I learned going from one the things I learned going from one campus to two campuses. It was just it campus to two campuses. It was just it campus to two campuses. It was just it it was good. It was a hot mess for me at it was good. It was a hot mess for me at it was good. It was a hot mess for me at the time, but I learned a lot. So, I the time, but I learned a lot. So, I the time, but I learned a lot. So, I love to teach. And I love what you guys love to teach. And I love what you guys love to teach. And I love what you guys do at Mission Marketing because you're do at Mission Marketing because you're do at Mission Marketing because you're really helping churches leverage the the really helping churches leverage the the really helping churches leverage the the strengths they already have, the their strengths they already have, the their strengths they already have, the their their communicate, their communicators, their communicate, their communicators, their communicate, their communicators, uh their their message as a church. uh their their message as a church. uh their their message as a church. There are things that they're doing and There are things that they're doing and There are things that they're doing and offering and getting that word out. And offering and getting that word out. And offering and getting that word out. And you know, again, everybody goes to a you know, again, everybody goes to a you know, again, everybody goes to a website or to social media before they website or to social media before they website or to social media before they actually go on site, whether it's buying actually go on site, whether it's buying actually go on site, whether it's buying a car, taking a vacation, even dating, a car, taking a vacation, even dating, a car, taking a vacation, even dating, you know. So uh you know. So uh you know. So uh progressive future oriented progressive future oriented progressive future oriented forwardinking church leaders for forwardinking church leaders for forwardinking church leaders for centuries have always embraced the centuries have always embraced the centuries have always embraced the latest technology to as a way to extend latest technology to as a way to extend latest technology to as a way to extend the gospel, reach more people. Now all the gospel, reach more people. Now all the gospel, reach more people. Now all those things can be abused etc. But those things can be abused etc. But those things can be abused etc. But >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> we know the printing press was the >> we know the printing press was the >> we know the printing press was the reformation spread on the wheels of the reformation spread on the wheels of the reformation spread on the wheels of the printing press. And even then there were printing press. And even then there were printing press. And even then there were people saying if it's not a handwritten people saying if it's not a handwritten people saying if it's not a handwritten transcription of the Bible then it transcription of the Bible then it transcription of the Bible then it printing press is not it that's not a printing press is not it that's not a printing press is not it that's not a that's that's that's a wrong way to get that's that's that's a wrong way to get that's that's that's a wrong way to get the Bible out.

the Bible out. the Bible out. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad we didn't >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad we didn't >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad we didn't stick with that. stick with that. stick with that. >> But we're all we're all grateful for the >> But we're all we're all grateful for the >> But we're all we're all grateful for the uh the adaptation of air conditioning in uh the adaptation of air conditioning in uh the adaptation of air conditioning in the church building, right? Especially the church building, right? Especially the church building, right? Especially those of us in Texas and Arizona. Um you those of us in Texas and Arizona. Um you those of us in Texas and Arizona. Um you know know know >> totally totally. And so, you know, uh >> totally totally. And so, you know, uh >> totally totally. And so, you know, uh but communications is just is is has but communications is just is is has but communications is just is is has been the new frontier and and there's so been the new frontier and and there's so been the new frontier and and there's so many opportunities with it and to not many opportunities with it and to not many opportunities with it and to not take advantage of it. And and um and take advantage of it. And and um and take advantage of it. And and um and what I love about what you guys is that what I love about what you guys is that what I love about what you guys is that churches don't have to hire a lot of churches don't have to hire a lot of churches don't have to hire a lot of staff some and they need some staff, but staff some and they need some staff, but staff some and they need some staff, but they can do a lot of this. You guys can they can do a lot of this. You guys can they can do a lot of this. You guys can do this kind of stuff for them at a do this kind of stuff for them at a do this kind of stuff for them at a reasonable price. And u and you're going reasonable price. And u and you're going reasonable price. And u and you're going to stay on top of it, you know, because to stay on top of it, you know, because to stay on top of it, you know, because this is your world where a church this is your world where a church this is your world where a church sometimes going to get distracted with sometimes going to get distracted with sometimes going to get distracted with other things, even the communication other things, even the communication other things, even the communication team. team. team. Well, we we I have one more question Well, we we I have one more question Well, we we I have one more question then we probably need to land the plane, then we probably need to land the plane, then we probably need to land the plane, but I want to go to the second bowl and but I want to go to the second bowl and but I want to go to the second bowl and I was this probably a big conversation, I was this probably a big conversation, I was this probably a big conversation, but you you have small is the new big. but you you have small is the new big. but you you have small is the new big. So, just briefly explain what you mean So, just briefly explain what you mean So, just briefly explain what you mean by that. by that. by that. >> Well, the end of the last century was uh >> Well, the end of the last century was uh >> Well, the end of the last century was uh the beginning of the the the megaurch the beginning of the the the megaurch the beginning of the the the megaurch movement began where where you had movement began where where you had movement began where where you had gifted communicators and leaders and and gifted communicators and leaders and and gifted communicators and leaders and and and and and there was this sense of we just got to there was this sense of we just got to there was this sense of we just got to get as big as we can.

get as big as we can. get as big as we can. >> Yeah. But we've learned uh that we can >> Yeah. But we've learned uh that we can >> Yeah. But we've learned uh that we can get too big in terms of a physical uh get too big in terms of a physical uh get too big in terms of a physical uh building. building. building. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That they can get to a point you build >> That they can get to a point you build >> That they can get to a point you build too big, expand too big and it becomes too big, expand too big and it becomes too big, expand too big and it becomes unsustainable, unsustainable, unsustainable, you know, when that pastor leaves or you know, when that pastor leaves or you know, when that pastor leaves or community around you changes. Now community around you changes. Now community around you changes. Now megaurches are getting bigger in terms megaurches are getting bigger in terms megaurches are getting bigger in terms of numbers of people be but buildings, of numbers of people be but buildings, of numbers of people be but buildings, mega buildings are getting smaller. And mega buildings are getting smaller. And mega buildings are getting smaller. And if you have a multi-sight church if you have a multi-sight church if you have a multi-sight church strategy, you don't need a mega strategy, you don't need a mega strategy, you don't need a mega building. And the biggest obstacle for building. And the biggest obstacle for building. And the biggest obstacle for churches in going multi-sight to churches in going multi-sight to churches in going multi-sight to overcome what slows them down more than overcome what slows them down more than overcome what slows them down more than anything else is finding a facility, anything else is finding a facility, anything else is finding a facility, a me a place to meet or being able to a me a place to meet or being able to a me a place to meet or being able to afford a facility where they want to be afford a facility where they want to be afford a facility where they want to be in. And so, um, the nice thing about the in. And so, um, the nice thing about the in. And so, um, the nice thing about the multi-sight model is that you don't need multi-sight model is that you don't need multi-sight model is that you don't need a big mega building. So, it's not going a big mega building. So, it's not going a big mega building. So, it's not going to cost as much. Again, I I like to say to cost as much. Again, I I like to say to cost as much. Again, I I like to say somewhere between 10 to 30,000 square somewhere between 10 to 30,000 square somewhere between 10 to 30,000 square feet. Now, you talk about mega campuses, feet. Now, you talk about mega campuses, feet. Now, you talk about mega campuses, they're in 100 to 200,000 square feet.

they're in 100 to 200,000 square feet. they're in 100 to 200,000 square feet. You don't you you don't need a mega You don't you you don't need a mega You don't you you don't need a mega campus if you're multicighting and and campus if you're multicighting and and campus if you're multicighting and and and you do 10 to 30,000 square feet with and you do 10 to 30,000 square feet with and you do 10 to 30,000 square feet with 4 to 600 seats is a is an ideal size. 4 to 600 seats is a is an ideal size. 4 to 600 seats is a is an ideal size. And then corresponding children and and And then corresponding children and and And then corresponding children and and good community meeting space where good community meeting space where good community meeting space where you're having time to hang out with each you're having time to hang out with each you're having time to hang out with each other in the lobby and, you know, and other in the lobby and, you know, and other in the lobby and, you know, and space to do that and parking. That's all space to do that and parking. That's all space to do that and parking. That's all you need. And you don't have to have you need. And you don't have to have you need. And you don't have to have offices there. You can offer somewhere offices there. You can offer somewhere offices there. You can offer somewhere else, all that sort of thing, but uh else, all that sort of thing, but uh else, all that sort of thing, but uh that's a whole lot less expensive. And that's a whole lot less expensive. And that's a whole lot less expensive. And and you could go to se thousand a couple and you could go to se thousand a couple and you could go to se thousand a couple thousand people. Uh I had the church I'm thousand people. Uh I had the church I'm thousand people. Uh I had the church I'm in LA. They have in LA. They have in LA. They have they have one they have 900 seats in a they have one they have 900 seats in a they have one they have 900 seats in a in a uh you know a warehouse in three in a uh you know a warehouse in three in a uh you know a warehouse in three different rooms. This the largest room different rooms. This the largest room different rooms. This the largest room is 600 seats, then a video venue of 300 is 600 seats, then a video venue of 300 is 600 seats, then a video venue of 300 and another one with 100 seats. And so and another one with 100 seats. And so and another one with 100 seats. And so they have 2,000 plus people attending they have 2,000 plus people attending they have 2,000 plus people attending now. That's just the original campus. now. That's just the original campus. now. That's just the original campus. And they were thinking, "Do we need to And they were thinking, "Do we need to And they were thinking, "Do we need to get bigger?" I said, "No, don't get if get bigger?" I said, "No, don't get if get bigger?" I said, "No, don't get if you don't get bigger. Uh just add more you don't get bigger. Uh just add more you don't get bigger. Uh just add more rooms or rooms or rooms or >> Yeah. more locations."

>> Yeah. more locations." >> Yeah. more locations." >> Well, and that's what they're doing. >> Well, and that's what they're doing. >> Well, and that's what they're doing. That's what they want to do. And and That's what they want to do. And and That's what they want to do. And and let's fully activate. Let's fully let's fully activate. Let's fully let's fully activate. Let's fully maximize the current building you're at maximize the current building you're at maximize the current building you're at now. And there's some ways they could now. And there's some ways they could now. And there's some ways they could get a little better at that. And so get a little better at that. And so get a little better at that. And so we're working on that. But uh so you we're working on that. But uh so you we're working on that. But uh so you asked so small is the new big the um uh asked so small is the new big the um uh asked so small is the new big the um uh and that's liberating to not have to uh and that's liberating to not have to uh and that's liberating to not have to uh have big buildings to extend your reach have big buildings to extend your reach have big buildings to extend your reach and your impact. A and your impact. A and your impact. A >> lot more cost effective too. Yes. >> lot more cost effective too. Yes. >> lot more cost effective too. Yes. >> And you know it feels better too when >> And you know it feels better too when >> And you know it feels better too when you walk around you know people. You you walk around you know people. You you walk around you know people. You actually can see people like hey how's actually can see people like hey how's actually can see people like hey how's it going because you're not in a it going because you're not in a it going because you're not in a >> you not a willow where there's like what >> you not a willow where there's like what >> you not a willow where there's like what 9,000. You know, the the biggest 9,000. You know, the the biggest 9,000. You know, the the biggest resistance to the doing multiple resistance to the doing multiple resistance to the doing multiple services back in the last century in the services back in the last century in the services back in the last century in the 80s was if we go to two services on 80s was if we go to two services on 80s was if we go to two services on Sunday morning, we won't know everybody. Sunday morning, we won't know everybody. Sunday morning, we won't know everybody. And that was a big issue. And I still And that was a big issue. And I still And that was a big issue. And I still hear some of that sometimes about, you hear some of that sometimes about, you hear some of that sometimes about, you know, a church too big and all that or know, a church too big and all that or know, a church too big and all that or or multiple services or multiple or multiple services or multiple or multiple services or multiple locations, but not so much. Now, um the locations, but not so much. Now, um the locations, but not so much. Now, um the um the um what else I was going to say um the um what else I was going to say um the um what else I was going to say about the the Yeah. Okay. I think I had about the the Yeah. Okay. I think I had about the the Yeah. Okay. I think I had another thought about this. Well, I I another thought about this. Well, I I another thought about this. Well, I I mean I I think there's something to that mean I I think there's something to that mean I I think there's something to that and and and I think about going back to and and and I think about going back to and and and I think about going back to the communications and and just the idea the communications and and just the idea the communications and and just the idea that you don't you don't have to that you don't you don't have to that you don't you don't have to overthink it. Um if you're going overthink it. Um if you're going overthink it. Um if you're going multi-sight, it is if you have another multi-sight, it is if you have another multi-sight, it is if you have another worship center, it's got like three or worship center, it's got like three or worship center, it's got like three or 400 seats, you know, you just relieved 400 seats, you know, you just relieved 400 seats, you know, you just relieved room from your current facility that's room from your current facility that's room from your current facility that's busting at the seams to move people busting at the seams to move people busting at the seams to move people there. So, it's a win-win on both sides there. So, it's a win-win on both sides there. So, it's a win-win on both sides of it.

of it. of it. >> And when you have a when you have an >> And when you have a when you have an >> And when you have a when you have an auditorium of 400 seats, whatever, it auditorium of 400 seats, whatever, it auditorium of 400 seats, whatever, it doesn't Yeah. It's the experience of doesn't Yeah. It's the experience of doesn't Yeah. It's the experience of church corporately together. Matt, you church corporately together. Matt, you church corporately together. Matt, you want to feel like there's good energy in want to feel like there's good energy in want to feel like there's good energy in the room. the room. the room. >> If you've got four 300 people meeting in >> If you've got four 300 people meeting in >> If you've got four 300 people meeting in a auditorium of a thousand that it feels a auditorium of a thousand that it feels a auditorium of a thousand that it feels half empty. It's half empty. It's half empty. It's >> empty. Yeah. >> empty. Yeah. >> empty. Yeah. >> But if you've got 300 meeting in a room >> But if you've got 300 meeting in a room >> But if you've got 300 meeting in a room of 600 seats or even 200 people, it of 600 seats or even 200 people, it of 600 seats or even 200 people, it feels high energy. It feels exciting. feels high energy. It feels exciting. feels high energy. It feels exciting. There's something happening here. And so There's something happening here. And so There's something happening here. And so it small is the new big. don't need big it small is the new big. don't need big it small is the new big. don't need big rooms and they're hard to fill up on in rooms and they're hard to fill up on in rooms and they're hard to fill up on in the middle of the summer and all that the middle of the summer and all that the middle of the summer and all that kind of stuff. Maybe Christmas and kind of stuff. Maybe Christmas and kind of stuff. Maybe Christmas and Easter is a good day to have a big room. Easter is a good day to have a big room. Easter is a good day to have a big room. But But But >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> but we also know too bar you talked >> but we also know too bar you talked >> but we also know too bar you talked about mergers 40% more than 40% now of about mergers 40% more than 40% now of about mergers 40% more than 40% now of all multi-sight campuses facilities are all multi-sight campuses facilities are all multi-sight campuses facilities are coming by way of a merger. coming by way of a merger. coming by way of a merger. >> Buildings are so expensive, even smaller >> Buildings are so expensive, even smaller >> Buildings are so expensive, even smaller ones, even the ones you know I just ones, even the ones you know I just ones, even the ones you know I just described, they're not cheap. And um and described, they're not cheap. And um and described, they're not cheap. And um and there's a lot of work you have to do.

there's a lot of work you have to do. there's a lot of work you have to do. More and more churches are seeing the More and more churches are seeing the More and more churches are seeing the value of churches that there all across value of churches that there all across value of churches that there all across the country there's 320,000 Protestant the country there's 320,000 Protestant the country there's 320,000 Protestant churches. churches. churches. >> 20% of them are in serious trouble. >> 20% of them are in serious trouble. >> 20% of them are in serious trouble. >> About 60% are stuck. >> About 60% are stuck. >> About 60% are stuck. >> So you got struggling, you got stuck, >> So you got struggling, you got stuck, >> So you got struggling, you got stuck, but about another 20% 25 are strong. but about another 20% 25 are strong. but about another 20% 25 are strong. They're growing. Those strong growing They're growing. Those strong growing They're growing. Those strong growing churches, they are out of room and out churches, they are out of room and out churches, they are out of room and out of space and looking for space. Other of space and looking for space. Other of space and looking for space. Other churches are in decline. Many times churches are in decline. Many times churches are in decline. Many times they're looking for a pastor. We have they're looking for a pastor. We have they're looking for a pastor. We have empty buildings. You need you need empty buildings. You need you need empty buildings. You need you need space. We need a pastor. We need a space. We need a pastor. We need a space. We need a pastor. We need a reinfusion of of life in our church. For reinfusion of of life in our church. For reinfusion of of life in our church. For the struggling churches, they need a the struggling churches, they need a the struggling churches, they need a rebirth. They can get that by joining rebirth. They can get that by joining rebirth. They can get that by joining with a strong church. Other churches are with a strong church. Other churches are with a strong church. Other churches are stuck. They need a revitalization. they stuck. They need a revitalization. they stuck. They need a revitalization. they can they can be revitalized by joining can they can be revitalized by joining can they can be revitalized by joining with another strong church and then with another strong church and then with another strong church and then strong churches benefit of course strong churches benefit of course strong churches benefit of course because this is a way to expand and because this is a way to expand and because this is a way to expand and reach more people. It's it's a huge reach more people. It's it's a huge reach more people. It's it's a huge win-win and this is why this is growing win-win and this is why this is growing win-win and this is why this is growing across the country across the country across the country >> and so the merger the church merger >> and so the merger the church merger >> and so the merger the church merger strategy. We strategy. We strategy. We >> we probably need to land this plane. I >> we probably need to land this plane. I >> we probably need to land this plane. I would love us to jump on another episode would love us to jump on another episode would love us to jump on another episode and talk about the the idea of mergers and talk about the the idea of mergers and talk about the the idea of mergers and and just give some advice and and and just give some advice and and and just give some advice and counsel on that because there's I have a counsel on that because there's I have a counsel on that because there's I have a lot of questions on that. um because of lot of questions on that. um because of lot of questions on that. um because of what you just said that whole 2020 2060 what you just said that whole 2020 2060 what you just said that whole 2020 2060 what's going on there. So um yeah, let's what's going on there. So um yeah, let's what's going on there. So um yeah, let's uh let's plan on um let's plan on uh let's plan on um let's plan on uh let's plan on um let's plan on jumping on again and doing a part two.

jumping on again and doing a part two. jumping on again and doing a part two. >> Maybe maybe this is a 10 part series >> Maybe maybe this is a 10 part series >> Maybe maybe this is a 10 part series update. update. update. >> It could it could be. It could be. Jim, >> It could it could be. It could be. Jim, >> It could it could be. It could be. Jim, thank you so much for hanging out with thank you so much for hanging out with thank you so much for hanging out with us today. Uh Jim and Jason, it's been a us today. Uh Jim and Jason, it's been a us today. Uh Jim and Jason, it's been a lot of fun. For those of you who are lot of fun. For those of you who are lot of fun. For those of you who are listening or watching this on our listening or watching this on our listening or watching this on our YouTube channel, thanks for making it YouTube channel, thanks for making it YouTube channel, thanks for making it all the way through. Uh we hope that you all the way through. Uh we hope that you all the way through. Uh we hope that you found the content to be helpful. Just a found the content to be helpful. Just a found the content to be helpful. Just a reminder that if you haven't ever reminder that if you haven't ever reminder that if you haven't ever subscribed to our podcast wherever subscribed to our podcast wherever subscribed to our podcast wherever you're listening or wherever you're you're listening or wherever you're you're listening or wherever you're watching, make sure that you do that so watching, make sure that you do that so watching, make sure that you do that so you don't miss any future episodes. And you don't miss any future episodes. And you don't miss any future episodes. And if you found this episode to be helpful, if you found this episode to be helpful, if you found this episode to be helpful, it would be great for you to uh share it it would be great for you to uh share it it would be great for you to uh share it with a friend, share it with a ministry with a friend, share it with a ministry with a friend, share it with a ministry colleague uh who might be able to colleague uh who might be able to colleague uh who might be able to benefit from it. If you want to learn benefit from it. If you want to learn benefit from it. If you want to learn more about Jim or connect with Jim, you more about Jim or connect with Jim, you more about Jim or connect with Jim, you can check our show notes. We'll have a can check our show notes. We'll have a can check our show notes. We'll have a few different links and places that you few different links and places that you few different links and places that you can learn more about the books that he's can learn more about the books that he's can learn more about the books that he's written or uh just uh reach out to him. written or uh just uh reach out to him. written or uh just uh reach out to him. Maybe you and your church uh could use a Maybe you and your church uh could use a Maybe you and your church uh could use a consultant on your plans for uh consultant on your plans for uh consultant on your plans for uh expansion and multicight or even expansion and multicight or even expansion and multicight or even mergers. So uh I'm sure that Jim would mergers. So uh I'm sure that Jim would mergers. So uh I'm sure that Jim would be uh would be grateful for the be uh would be grateful for the be uh would be grateful for the opportunity to connect with any of you opportunity to connect with any of you opportunity to connect with any of you out there who are in need of that kind out there who are in need of that kind out there who are in need of that kind of help. Uh on behalf of Jim Tomlin and of help. Uh on behalf of Jim Tomlin and of help. Uh on behalf of Jim Tomlin and Jason Hamrock, I'm Bart Blair and this Jason Hamrock, I'm Bart Blair and this Jason Hamrock, I'm Bart Blair and this has been another episode of the has been another episode of the has been another episode of the Missional Marketing Podcast.

Missional Marketing Podcast. Missional Marketing Podcast. [Music]