Top 4 Pain Points of Church Communications Directors | Zac Bernauer

That's when I knew that they're That's when I knew that they're overloaded. They're tired. They're worn overloaded. They're tired. They're worn overloaded. They're tired. They're worn out because they are expected to have out because they are expected to have out because they are expected to have the 50,000 ft view of being able to see the 50,000 ft view of being able to see the 50,000 ft view of being able to see the communications and the marketing and the communications and the marketing and the communications and the marketing and the vision and the direction of the the vision and the direction of the the vision and the direction of the church, but they also have to be in the church, but they also have to be in the church, but they also have to be in the weeds of everything. Welcome to episode weeds of everything. Welcome to episode weeds of everything. Welcome to episode number 179 of the missional marketing number 179 of the missional marketing number 179 of the missional marketing podcast. My name is Bart Glare. I am the podcast. My name is Bart Glare. I am the podcast. My name is Bart Glare. I am the brand director for Missional Marketing. brand director for Missional Marketing. brand director for Missional Marketing. And I'm joined today by the CEO of And I'm joined today by the CEO of And I'm joined today by the CEO of Missional Marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. Missional Marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. Missional Marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. Hello, Jason. Hello, Jason. Hello, Jason. >> Hi, Bart. How's it going, man? >> Hi, Bart. How's it going, man? >> Hi, Bart. How's it going, man? >> I am doing very well. I'm really excited >> I am doing very well. I'm really excited >> I am doing very well. I'm really excited today because we brought on one of our today because we brought on one of our today because we brought on one of our missional marketing personalities. missional marketing personalities. missional marketing personalities. >> We did. >> We did. >> We did. >> Yes. Zack Bernower. Zack. Now, if you've >> Yes. Zack Bernower. Zack. Now, if you've >> Yes. Zack Bernower. Zack. Now, if you've been around the missional marketing been around the missional marketing been around the missional marketing church communications space for a while, church communications space for a while, church communications space for a while, you have probably seen Zach's face or you have probably seen Zach's face or you have probably seen Zach's face or heard Zach's voice. He's one of our heard Zach's voice. He's one of our heard Zach's voice. He's one of our popular coaches around the missional popular coaches around the missional popular coaches around the missional marketing space and also one of our road marketing space and also one of our road marketing space and also one of our road show trainers. We've talked about road show trainers. We've talked about road show trainers. We've talked about road shows here the last couple of episodes shows here the last couple of episodes shows here the last couple of episodes that we've recorded uh live events that that we've recorded uh live events that that we've recorded uh live events that we do around the country where you can we do around the country where you can we do around the country where you can come and get a hands-on learning come and get a hands-on learning come and get a hands-on learning training experience. Uh and really it's training experience. Uh and really it's training experience. Uh and really it's the three of us. We kind of rotate in the three of us. We kind of rotate in the three of us. We kind of rotate in and out tag team. Uh we got some road and out tag team. Uh we got some road and out tag team. Uh we got some road shows coming up uh in 2026 that we're shows coming up uh in 2026 that we're shows coming up uh in 2026 that we're going to share with you, our audience going to share with you, our audience going to share with you, our audience about as we wrap up this particular about as we wrap up this particular about as we wrap up this particular podcast. But what I wanted to do today podcast. But what I wanted to do today podcast. But what I wanted to do today was set up a conversation really just to was set up a conversation really just to was set up a conversation really just to get some insight from the two of you uh get some insight from the two of you uh get some insight from the two of you uh on some issues and topics, conversations on some issues and topics, conversations on some issues and topics, conversations that we often have with church leaders, that we often have with church leaders, that we often have with church leaders, communications directors and other communications directors and other communications directors and other people uh that come to our road shows uh people uh that come to our road shows uh people uh that come to our road shows uh some pain points so to speak. And so the

some pain points so to speak. And so the some pain points so to speak. And so the working title of this episode is top working title of this episode is top working title of this episode is top four pain points for church four pain points for church four pain points for church communication directors. I don't know if communication directors. I don't know if communication directors. I don't know if we'll hit all four today, but we'll try. we'll hit all four today, but we'll try. we'll hit all four today, but we'll try. If we don't, then I'll have to retitle If we don't, then I'll have to retitle If we don't, then I'll have to retitle the podcast episode, but I think we'll the podcast episode, but I think we'll the podcast episode, but I think we'll get all four of them. But I'm going to get all four of them. But I'm going to get all four of them. But I'm going to set this up and I'm just going to start, set this up and I'm just going to start, set this up and I'm just going to start, you know, kind of teeing you guys up uh you know, kind of teeing you guys up uh you know, kind of teeing you guys up uh to speak on these particular pain to speak on these particular pain to speak on these particular pain points, how common you think they are, points, how common you think they are, points, how common you think they are, and what maybe some of the solutions are and what maybe some of the solutions are and what maybe some of the solutions are to some of these pain points. You guys to some of these pain points. You guys to some of these pain points. You guys ready to go? ready to go? ready to go? >> Oh, let's do it. Yeah. >> Oh, let's do it. Yeah. >> Oh, let's do it. Yeah. >> All right. Here we go. Here's here's the >> All right. Here we go. Here's here's the >> All right. Here we go. Here's here's the number one pain point that I think is number one pain point that I think is number one pain point that I think is really common amongst church really common amongst church really common amongst church communication directors, and that is communication directors, and that is communication directors, and that is that they are the jack of all trades, that they are the jack of all trades, that they are the jack of all trades, and they experience all kinds of and they experience all kinds of and they experience all kinds of overload. Have you heard that? Have you overload. Have you heard that? Have you overload. Have you heard that? Have you experienced that? Have you seen that experienced that? Have you seen that experienced that? Have you seen that when we're working with our church comms when we're working with our church comms when we're working with our church comms directors? directors? directors? >> Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Go >> Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Go >> Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Go ahead, Zach. I want you. ahead, Zach. I want you. ahead, Zach. I want you. >> Yeah. But and normally the phrase is the >> Yeah. But and normally the phrase is the >> Yeah. But and normally the phrase is the jack of all trades, master of none. But jack of all trades, master of none. But jack of all trades, master of none. But I do want to give comm directors bonus I do want to give comm directors bonus I do want to give comm directors bonus that they become the masters of all too. that they become the masters of all too. that they become the masters of all too. Um, interestingly enough, like a Um, interestingly enough, like a Um, interestingly enough, like a probably like two weeks ago, I was on probably like two weeks ago, I was on probably like two weeks ago, I was on two separate calls and both of those two separate calls and both of those two separate calls and both of those comm's directors, um, two different comm's directors, um, two different comm's directors, um, two different churches, they said, "Do you have a churches, they said, "Do you have a churches, they said, "Do you have a templated job description for comm's templated job description for comm's templated job description for comm's director or comm's positions?" And I director or comm's positions?" And I director or comm's positions?" And I actually got excited because I know how actually got excited because I know how actually got excited because I know how overloaded they are. And I said, "So, overloaded they are. And I said, "So, overloaded they are. And I said, "So, yes, but you're hiring." And they both yes, but you're hiring." And they both yes, but you're hiring." And they both went, "No, we're not hiring. I'm just went, "No, we're not hiring. I'm just went, "No, we're not hiring. I'm just trying to figure out what I'm actually trying to figure out what I'm actually trying to figure out what I'm actually supposed to be doing in my job. And supposed to be doing in my job. And supposed to be doing in my job. And that's when I knew that's when I knew

that's when I knew that's when I knew that's when I knew that's when I knew that they're overloaded. They're tired. that they're overloaded. They're tired. that they're overloaded. They're tired. They're worn out because they are They're worn out because they are They're worn out because they are expected to have the 50,000 ft view of expected to have the 50,000 ft view of expected to have the 50,000 ft view of being able to see the communications and being able to see the communications and being able to see the communications and the marketing and the vision and the the marketing and the vision and the the marketing and the vision and the direction of the church, but they also direction of the church, but they also direction of the church, but they also have to be in the weeds of everything. have to be in the weeds of everything. have to be in the weeds of everything. And so they're balancing the struggle of And so they're balancing the struggle of And so they're balancing the struggle of not being able to cast vision and be not being able to cast vision and be not being able to cast vision and be strategic, but also having to do all the strategic, but also having to do all the strategic, but also having to do all the work. And so they become the jack of all work. And so they become the jack of all work. And so they become the jack of all trades and overloaded. trades and overloaded. trades and overloaded. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll expand on that a >> Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll expand on that a >> Yeah. Yeah. I'll I'll expand on that a little bit. It seems like unless you are little bit. It seems like unless you are little bit. It seems like unless you are hired to be only the communications hired to be only the communications hired to be only the communications director, most even even in that director, most even even in that director, most even even in that scenario, most of us wear multiple hats. scenario, most of us wear multiple hats. scenario, most of us wear multiple hats. So most you're probably saying, "Yep, So most you're probably saying, "Yep, So most you're probably saying, "Yep, you're if you're a com director you're if you're a com director you're if you're a com director listening right now, yep, I also do, you listening right now, yep, I also do, you listening right now, yep, I also do, you know, first time guest assimilations or know, first time guest assimilations or know, first time guest assimilations or I'm over groups or, you know, something I'm over groups or, you know, something I'm over groups or, you know, something like that." You you wear lots of hats. like that." You you wear lots of hats. like that." You you wear lots of hats. And so when you're wearing lots of hats, And so when you're wearing lots of hats, And so when you're wearing lots of hats, it the uh just like any other ministry it the uh just like any other ministry it the uh just like any other ministry position, this is kind of this is even position, this is kind of this is even position, this is kind of this is even though it might be under operations, though it might be under operations, though it might be under operations, communications is a is a ministry. and communications is a is a ministry. and communications is a is a ministry. and and there's so many layers and it's so and there's so many layers and it's so and there's so many layers and it's so so deep and so wide and it doesn't so deep and so wide and it doesn't so deep and so wide and it doesn't really matter the size of church if really matter the size of church if really matter the size of church if you're an active church which you got a you're an active church which you got a you're an active church which you got a lot going on there there's like you said lot going on there there's like you said lot going on there there's like you said there's a ton going on Zack but there's there's a ton going on Zack but there's there's a ton going on Zack but there's there's the weeds that you have to get there's the weeds that you have to get there's the weeds that you have to get in and the problem is the problem is in and the problem is the problem is in and the problem is the problem is week in and week out you can live in in

week in and week out you can live in in week in and week out you can live in in those weeds and you don't really even those weeds and you don't really even those weeds and you don't really even realize where you're headed and where realize where you're headed and where realize where you're headed and where you're going and it's very simple to get you're going and it's very simple to get you're going and it's very simple to get lost. You guys know this when I talk lost. You guys know this when I talk lost. You guys know this when I talk when we do this road show. What do you when we do this road show. What do you when we do this road show. What do you remember what I say up front? I say a remember what I say up front? I say a remember what I say up front? I say a few things, but one of the things I say few things, but one of the things I say few things, but one of the things I say is, "Hey, is, "Hey, is, "Hey, listen. Over the next six hours, I want listen. Over the next six hours, I want listen. Over the next six hours, I want you to work on your business, not in you to work on your business, not in you to work on your business, not in your business." And what I mean by that your business." And what I mean by that your business." And what I mean by that is you have to take dedicated time to is you have to take dedicated time to is you have to take dedicated time to zoom out and go, what are we doing here zoom out and go, what are we doing here zoom out and go, what are we doing here as a comm's team and as a church? Are we as a comm's team and as a church? Are we as a comm's team and as a church? Are we even making a difference? Are we moving even making a difference? Are we moving even making a difference? Are we moving the needle? How do we know we're the needle? How do we know we're the needle? How do we know we're winning? And and you can't if you if you winning? And and you can't if you if you winning? And and you can't if you if you spend your time just in the emails and spend your time just in the emails and spend your time just in the emails and in the well the trenches of day-to-day in the well the trenches of day-to-day in the well the trenches of day-to-day activity, how do you know you're even activity, how do you know you're even activity, how do you know you're even winning? So, you got to be able to zoom winning? So, you got to be able to zoom winning? So, you got to be able to zoom out and go, man, how do I not get out and go, man, how do I not get out and go, man, how do I not get overloaded? And and what do I do to give overloaded? And and what do I do to give overloaded? And and what do I do to give myself margin and some some bandwidth to myself margin and some some bandwidth to myself margin and some some bandwidth to even move the needle on all this stuff?

even move the needle on all this stuff? even move the needle on all this stuff? I I think one of the things we note when I I think one of the things we note when I I think one of the things we note when we're at the road shows and I would we're at the road shows and I would we're at the road shows and I would venture that many of the people venture that many of the people venture that many of the people listening to this episode would uh say listening to this episode would uh say listening to this episode would uh say that this is true about them. that this is true about them. that this is true about them. Communications isn't even their primary Communications isn't even their primary Communications isn't even their primary responsibility. It's the it's the and responsibility. It's the it's the and responsibility. It's the it's the and right. So we always use that phrase when right. So we always use that phrase when right. So we always use that phrase when we're at the road shows. You are the we're at the road shows. You are the we're at the road shows. You are the communications director and the first communications director and the first communications director and the first impressions team director and the impressions team director and the impressions team director and the assimilations director and the parking assimilations director and the parking assimilations director and the parking lot coordinator or whatever it is, lot coordinator or whatever it is, lot coordinator or whatever it is, right? Or vice versa. you might actually right? Or vice versa. you might actually right? Or vice versa. you might actually be the worship pastor or the creative be the worship pastor or the creative be the worship pastor or the creative director and the communications director and the communications director and the communications director. And so we recognize that uh director. And so we recognize that uh director. And so we recognize that uh you're spinning a lot of plates, wearing you're spinning a lot of plates, wearing you're spinning a lot of plates, wearing many hats is the phrase that you know we many hats is the phrase that you know we many hats is the phrase that you know we often use. The challenge is is that we often use. The challenge is is that we often use. The challenge is is that we come into a situation where you are a come into a situation where you are a come into a situation where you are a solo practitioner. You're the only solo practitioner. You're the only solo practitioner. You're the only person in your department managing all person in your department managing all person in your department managing all the communications inflow and output. Uh the communications inflow and output. Uh the communications inflow and output. Uh yet there's an expectation. It's more yet there's an expectation. It's more yet there's an expectation. It's more like a corporate expectation that you like a corporate expectation that you like a corporate expectation that you can actually that you can produce at a can actually that you can produce at a can actually that you can produce at a level that's comparable to what an level that's comparable to what an level that's comparable to what an entire team might be producing somewhere entire team might be producing somewhere entire team might be producing somewhere else in a in a more corporate or a else in a in a more corporate or a else in a in a more corporate or a business environment. So there's a lot business environment. So there's a lot business environment. So there's a lot of tension there and of course that does of tension there and of course that does of tension there and of course that does lead to uh fatigue, exhaustion, burnout.

lead to uh fatigue, exhaustion, burnout. lead to uh fatigue, exhaustion, burnout. We've talked about that a lot. We've We've talked about that a lot. We've We've talked about that a lot. We've talked about that on this podcast that talked about that on this podcast that talked about that on this podcast that you know that's not in fact I think one you know that's not in fact I think one you know that's not in fact I think one of the quotes that we quoted you on of the quotes that we quoted you on of the quotes that we quoted you on Jason in one of our last episodes was Jason in one of our last episodes was Jason in one of our last episodes was the fact that you know being burned out the fact that you know being burned out the fact that you know being burned out is not Jesus's design for the local is not Jesus's design for the local is not Jesus's design for the local church right like that shouldn't be part church right like that shouldn't be part church right like that shouldn't be part of the equation yet it often is as you of the equation yet it often is as you of the equation yet it often is as you guys are are working with different guys are are working with different guys are are working with different communications directors or people in communications directors or people in communications directors or people in the communication seats what's some of the communication seats what's some of the communication seats what's some of the counsel or the guidance that you the counsel or the guidance that you the counsel or the guidance that you might give them as it relates to uh might give them as it relates to uh might give them as it relates to uh setting expectations creating boundaries setting expectations creating boundaries setting expectations creating boundaries in managing the fact that they are in managing the fact that they are in managing the fact that they are wearing multiple hats in their role. wearing multiple hats in their role. wearing multiple hats in their role. Zach, why don't why don't you talk a Zach, why don't why don't you talk a Zach, why don't why don't you talk a little bit to that? little bit to that? little bit to that? >> Yeah, I would lean into the idea of >> Yeah, I would lean into the idea of >> Yeah, I would lean into the idea of communication and I think that's very communication and I think that's very communication and I think that's very hard for us ironically as communications hard for us ironically as communications hard for us ironically as communications directors because we are such high directors because we are such high directors because we are such high achieving individuals like we are achieving individuals like we are achieving individuals like we are perfectionists. We are type A. We know perfectionists. We are type A. We know perfectionists. We are type A. We know and want to get everything done. And to and want to get everything done. And to and want to get everything done. And to be able to say that I physically can't be able to say that I physically can't be able to say that I physically can't do that or in my capacity feels like a do that or in my capacity feels like a do that or in my capacity feels like a defeat and it feels like a loss and it defeat and it feels like a loss and it defeat and it feels like a loss and it actually ends up making us feel like we actually ends up making us feel like we actually ends up making us feel like we don't have as much value and worth in don't have as much value and worth in don't have as much value and worth in that. And that tends to be like the that. And that tends to be like the that. And that tends to be like the biggest reason for burnout is because biggest reason for burnout is because biggest reason for burnout is because now you feel like you are isolated and now you feel like you are isolated and now you feel like you are isolated and you're met with expectations but you you're met with expectations but you you're met with expectations but you haven't accurately communicated what is haven't accurately communicated what is haven't accurately communicated what is on your plate. Sometimes your lead on your plate. Sometimes your lead on your plate. Sometimes your lead pastor does not know all that you have pastor does not know all that you have pastor does not know all that you have to do. Sometimes the executive pastor to do. Sometimes the executive pastor to do. Sometimes the executive pastor doesn't know all that you have to do. Um doesn't know all that you have to do. Um doesn't know all that you have to do. Um there was a church I met was meeting

there was a church I met was meeting there was a church I met was meeting with two weeks before Easter. The XP with two weeks before Easter. The XP with two weeks before Easter. The XP came and said, "We want to do this whole came and said, "We want to do this whole came and said, "We want to do this whole giving initiative." And I was like, "I giving initiative." And I was like, "I giving initiative." And I was like, "I am second interviews and we want eight am second interviews and we want eight am second interviews and we want eight of them and can you get it done by next of them and can you get it done by next of them and can you get it done by next week?" week?" week?" No. And what she was flustered. She's No. And what she was flustered. She's No. And what she was flustered. She's like, "Well, how do I say no?" It's like, "Well, how do I say no?" It's like, "Well, how do I say no?" It's like, well, you're not saying no because like, well, you're not saying no because like, well, you're not saying no because you don't want to do it. You're saying you don't want to do it. You're saying you don't want to do it. You're saying no and giving context. It's going to no and giving context. It's going to no and giving context. It's going to take us 2 hours to set up the studio. take us 2 hours to set up the studio. take us 2 hours to set up the studio. It's going to take us 4 hours to record It's going to take us 4 hours to record It's going to take us 4 hours to record one. We got to coordinate all of these one. We got to coordinate all of these one. We got to coordinate all of these people. You're looking at 80, 90 hours people. You're looking at 80, 90 hours people. You're looking at 80, 90 hours of manpower here. We want to do that, of manpower here. We want to do that, of manpower here. We want to do that, but how can we do that in a way that is but how can we do that in a way that is but how can we do that in a way that is going to be sustainable? So, some of it going to be sustainable? So, some of it going to be sustainable? So, some of it is just communicating. It's not that I is just communicating. It's not that I is just communicating. It's not that I don't want to do it. It's I want to take don't want to do it. It's I want to take don't want to do it. It's I want to take the prior and prioritize how it's going the prior and prioritize how it's going the prior and prioritize how it's going to make it how we're going to be able to to make it how we're going to be able to to make it how we're going to be able to make it work for us. make it work for us. make it work for us. >> So that becomes a big issue is >> So that becomes a big issue is >> So that becomes a big issue is communication like number one talk communication like number one talk communication like number one talk through it. through it. through it. >> Yeah. Uh let me add to that. I I I have >> Yeah. Uh let me add to that. I I I have >> Yeah. Uh let me add to that. I I I have these conversations all the time and these conversations all the time and these conversations all the time and I'll just tell you straight up if you're I'll just tell you straight up if you're I'll just tell you straight up if you're unhealthy unhealthy unhealthy mentally you will burn out. I I have too mentally you will burn out. I I have too mentally you will burn out. I I have too many conversations where I meet new comm many conversations where I meet new comm many conversations where I meet new comm directors and I'm like, "Well, are you directors and I'm like, "Well, are you directors and I'm like, "Well, are you pioneering this position or did you pioneering this position or did you pioneering this position or did you replace somebody?" And the answer is replace somebody?" And the answer is replace somebody?" And the answer is typically, "Oh, yeah, I'm replacing the typically, "Oh, yeah, I'm replacing the typically, "Oh, yeah, I'm replacing the last person. What happened to them?"

last person. What happened to them?" last person. What happened to them?" Yeah, they burned out. Yeah, they burned out. Yeah, they burned out. >> Okay, you what are you going to do >> Okay, you what are you going to do >> Okay, you what are you going to do different that's going to not allow you different that's going to not allow you different that's going to not allow you to burn out? And they just go, I don't to burn out? And they just go, I don't to burn out? And they just go, I don't know. I go, you know, you need a know. I go, you know, you need a know. I go, you know, you need a strategy. And so my recommendation if strategy. And so my recommendation if strategy. And so my recommendation if you're listening to this and you find you're listening to this and you find you're listening to this and you find yourself going, "Yeah, I'm on this path yourself going, "Yeah, I'm on this path yourself going, "Yeah, I'm on this path towards burnout is get some help, get towards burnout is get some help, get towards burnout is get some help, get some coaching." Um, and you know, we some coaching." Um, and you know, we some coaching." Um, and you know, we offer that here is, you know, at Church offer that here is, you know, at Church offer that here is, you know, at Church Communications Group, we do a ton of Communications Group, we do a ton of Communications Group, we do a ton of coaching for the specific reasons of coaching for the specific reasons of coaching for the specific reasons of helping you create a better strategy, a helping you create a better strategy, a helping you create a better strategy, a sound strategy that actually builds in sound strategy that actually builds in sound strategy that actually builds in margin and helps you lead up. What I margin and helps you lead up. What I margin and helps you lead up. What I mean by that is your your example, Zach, mean by that is your your example, Zach, mean by that is your your example, Zach, is all too common. And that is not only is all too common. And that is not only is all too common. And that is not only just from, you know, your boss or your just from, you know, your boss or your just from, you know, your boss or your boss's boss, but also other ministries boss's boss, but also other ministries boss's boss, but also other ministries around you bombarding you with lastm around you bombarding you with lastm around you bombarding you with lastm minute requests and and how how can you minute requests and and how how can you minute requests and and how how can you sustain that kind of activity at a high sustain that kind of activity at a high sustain that kind of activity at a high level and and think that you're actually level and and think that you're actually level and and think that you're actually winning? You're not. So my winning? You're not. So my winning? You're not. So my recommendation, my advice is is get some recommendation, my advice is is get some recommendation, my advice is is get some counseling, some coaching from somebody counseling, some coaching from somebody counseling, some coaching from somebody who's been in the trenches and who has who's been in the trenches and who has who's been in the trenches and who has figured out how to get out of it and how figured out how to get out of it and how figured out how to get out of it and how to actually move the move the needle, so to actually move the move the needle, so to actually move the move the needle, so to speak, and and get to a spot where to speak, and and get to a spot where to speak, and and get to a spot where it's it's possible. Get to a spot where it's it's possible. Get to a spot where it's it's possible. Get to a spot where you are operating on a healthy level you are operating on a healthy level you are operating on a healthy level that uh that helps your church overall.

that uh that helps your church overall. that uh that helps your church overall. >> I love that, Jason. It's super >> I love that, Jason. It's super >> I love that, Jason. It's super practical. I I'm going to drill down and practical. I I'm going to drill down and practical. I I'm going to drill down and get even a little bit more practical in get even a little bit more practical in get even a little bit more practical in terms of just something that I think terms of just something that I think terms of just something that I think every comm's director ought to do or every comm's director ought to do or every comm's director ought to do or every I think this is just ministry in every I think this is just ministry in every I think this is just ministry in general. There's a very good chance that general. There's a very good chance that general. There's a very good chance that the people that you report to don't know the people that you report to don't know the people that you report to don't know everything that you do. They know a lot everything that you do. They know a lot everything that you do. They know a lot of what you do and they see the results of what you do and they see the results of what you do and they see the results of a lot of the things that you're of a lot of the things that you're of a lot of the things that you're doing. So I p lead pastors need to do doing. So I p lead pastors need to do doing. So I p lead pastors need to do this. Associate pastors need to do this. this. Associate pastors need to do this. this. Associate pastors need to do this. Comm directors need to do this. Worship Comm directors need to do this. Worship Comm directors need to do this. Worship directors need to do this. I would say directors need to do this. I would say directors need to do this. I would say you need to make an inventory of you need to make an inventory of you need to make an inventory of everything it is that you do. Get out a everything it is that you do. Get out a everything it is that you do. Get out a Google sheet and make an make a list of Google sheet and make an make a list of Google sheet and make an make a list of everything that you do on a weekly basis everything that you do on a weekly basis everything that you do on a weekly basis and a monthly basis and a quarterly and a monthly basis and a quarterly and a monthly basis and a quarterly basis. Okay? Then I challenge you to basis. Okay? Then I challenge you to basis. Okay? Then I challenge you to prioritize those things into three prioritize those things into three prioritize those things into three different categories. These are the different categories. These are the different categories. These are the things that I get to do that give me things that I get to do that give me things that I get to do that give me energy. Then I want you to take all the energy. Then I want you to take all the energy. Then I want you to take all the things and go these are the things that things and go these are the things that things and go these are the things that I have to do that suck the life out of I have to do that suck the life out of I have to do that suck the life out of me. And then the third category is these me. And then the third category is these me. And then the third category is these are the things that I do because they are the things that I do because they are the things that I do because they need to get done, but they have no need to get done, but they have no need to get done, but they have no emotional toll on take no emotional toll emotional toll on take no emotional toll emotional toll on take no emotional toll on me one way or another. They're just on me one way or another. They're just on me one way or another. They're just kind of neutral neutral impact on my job kind of neutral neutral impact on my job kind of neutral neutral impact on my job satisfaction. Okay.

satisfaction. Okay. satisfaction. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What you're looking for is you're >> What you're looking for is you're >> What you're looking for is you're looking to see how out of balance you looking to see how out of balance you looking to see how out of balance you are in terms of your weekly and monthly are in terms of your weekly and monthly are in terms of your weekly and monthly responsibilities of the things that suck responsibilities of the things that suck responsibilities of the things that suck the life out of you. Because if you're the life out of you. Because if you're the life out of you. Because if you're out of balance and you're spending more out of balance and you're spending more out of balance and you're spending more of your time doing the things that you of your time doing the things that you of your time doing the things that you don't enjoy, that maybe you're not as don't enjoy, that maybe you're not as don't enjoy, that maybe you're not as gifted in, that are harder for you to gifted in, that are harder for you to gifted in, that are harder for you to accomplish with the same level of of accomplish with the same level of of accomplish with the same level of of energy, enthusiasm, and maybe creativity energy, enthusiasm, and maybe creativity energy, enthusiasm, and maybe creativity as the things in in the other quadrants. as the things in in the other quadrants. as the things in in the other quadrants. You've got to figure out how to find the You've got to figure out how to find the You've got to figure out how to find the balance in that. Sometimes it might be balance in that. Sometimes it might be balance in that. Sometimes it might be recruiting some volunteers to do the recruiting some volunteers to do the recruiting some volunteers to do the things that you're not as gifted at or things that you're not as gifted at or things that you're not as gifted at or you're not as joyful in doing, but you you're not as joyful in doing, but you you're not as joyful in doing, but you can't live in that red line space for a can't live in that red line space for a can't live in that red line space for a long time and maintain effective long time and maintain effective long time and maintain effective ministry fruitfulness, you're you're ministry fruitfulness, you're you're ministry fruitfulness, you're you're going to burn out. And so I think as a, going to burn out. And so I think as a, going to burn out. And so I think as a, you know, in a healthy church leadership you know, in a healthy church leadership you know, in a healthy church leadership environment, healthy church staff environment, healthy church staff environment, healthy church staff culture, uh, you should be able to say, culture, uh, you should be able to say, culture, uh, you should be able to say, "Hey, here's the 48 things that I'm "Hey, here's the 48 things that I'm "Hey, here's the 48 things that I'm doing on a weekly and a monthly basis, doing on a weekly and a monthly basis, doing on a weekly and a monthly basis, and here's the 20 that, man, these are and here's the 20 that, man, these are and here's the 20 that, man, these are the things that I that make my feet hit the things that I that make my feet hit the things that I that make my feet hit the floor running every day. These are the floor running every day. These are the floor running every day. These are the seven or 10 things that I'm doing the seven or 10 things that I'm doing the seven or 10 things that I'm doing that if I never had to do these things that if I never had to do these things that if I never had to do these things again, I would be jumping for joy. And again, I would be jumping for joy. And again, I would be jumping for joy. And here's the other things that I'll here's the other things that I'll here's the other things that I'll continue doing because I'm I'm I'm I'm continue doing because I'm I'm I'm I'm continue doing because I'm I'm I'm I'm good with it. It's okay, right?" I think good with it. It's okay, right?" I think good with it. It's okay, right?" I think all of us have those things and I would all of us have those things and I would all of us have those things and I would say do that inventory, sit down with say do that inventory, sit down with say do that inventory, sit down with your leadership team and and ask for your leadership team and and ask for your leadership team and and ask for help. Hey, how can we how can I find help. Hey, how can we how can I find help. Hey, how can we how can I find better balance in this? I know that in better balance in this? I know that in better balance in this? I know that in every situation, there's no job that's every situation, there's no job that's every situation, there's no job that's perfect. There's no job where you get to perfect. There's no job where you get to perfect. There's no job where you get to do only the fun things that you like to do only the fun things that you like to do only the fun things that you like to do all the time. But at the same time,

do all the time. But at the same time, do all the time. But at the same time, from a sustainability standpoint, you from a sustainability standpoint, you from a sustainability standpoint, you can't live in that place where the can't live in that place where the can't live in that place where the majority of what you're doing, the majority of what you're doing, the majority of what you're doing, the majority of your time is being spent majority of your time is being spent majority of your time is being spent living in a space where you're just living in a space where you're just living in a space where you're just you're unhappy all the time. be honest you're unhappy all the time. be honest you're unhappy all the time. be honest with your leadership team on that. Any with your leadership team on that. Any with your leadership team on that. Any comments about that guys? That idea. You comments about that guys? That idea. You comments about that guys? That idea. You like that idea? like that idea? like that idea? >> I like that idea a lot. I I mean it goes >> I like that idea a lot. I I mean it goes >> I like that idea a lot. I I mean it goes to towards the coaching. Sometimes you to towards the coaching. Sometimes you to towards the coaching. Sometimes you need somebody else uh a partner to help need somebody else uh a partner to help need somebody else uh a partner to help you navigate all that. It's it's you navigate all that. It's it's you navigate all that. It's it's sometimes very tough to do it on your sometimes very tough to do it on your sometimes very tough to do it on your own. own. own. >> Um so again, you know, if it's paid >> Um so again, you know, if it's paid >> Um so again, you know, if it's paid coaching, go get it. If you can't afford coaching, go get it. If you can't afford coaching, go get it. If you can't afford that, find a peer, another comm's that, find a peer, another comm's that, find a peer, another comm's director that you can lean on and you director that you can lean on and you director that you can lean on and you can lean on each other. And uh you know, can lean on each other. And uh you know, can lean on each other. And uh you know, if you go to Kexa, our new app, um if you go to Kexa, our new app, um if you go to Kexa, our new app, um you'll find people like that. in and you'll find people like that. in and you'll find people like that. in and connect. Uh but I'd recommend you you connect. Uh but I'd recommend you you connect. Uh but I'd recommend you you you take that that approach. That's a you take that that approach. That's a you take that that approach. That's a good one, Bart. good one, Bart. good one, Bart. >> Yeah. Uh let's move on to painoint >> Yeah. Uh let's move on to painoint >> Yeah. Uh let's move on to painoint number two. Okay. This this is one we we number two. Okay. This this is one we we number two. Okay. This this is one we we we talk about this one all the time. we talk about this one all the time. we talk about this one all the time. It's it's this is a pain point and it is It's it's this is a pain point and it is It's it's this is a pain point and it is bridging the generational communication bridging the generational communication bridging the generational communication divide. Bridging the generational divide. Bridging the generational divide. Bridging the generational communication gap. If you are whether communication gap. If you are whether communication gap. If you are whether you're in a small church, mid-size you're in a small church, mid-size you're in a small church, mid-size church, large church, you've got people church, large church, you've got people church, large church, you've got people of all generations in your church. Uh, of all generations in your church. Uh, of all generations in your church. Uh, some of you have been, some of you, you some of you have been, some of you, you some of you have been, some of you, you you killed your bulletin in 2020 during you killed your bulletin in 2020 during you killed your bulletin in 2020 during the pandemic days and you haven't the pandemic days and you haven't the pandemic days and you haven't brought it back and you haven't even brought it back and you haven't even brought it back and you haven't even thought about it. Some of you are thought about it. Some of you are thought about it. Some of you are spending too many hours every single spending too many hours every single spending too many hours every single week doing a bulletin every single week week doing a bulletin every single week week doing a bulletin every single week because there's a generation of people because there's a generation of people because there's a generation of people in your church that absolutely need the in your church that absolutely need the in your church that absolutely need the bulletin. We've got every, you know, bulletin. We've got every, you know, bulletin. We've got every, you know, we've got bulletin readers, we got Tik we've got bulletin readers, we got Tik we've got bulletin readers, we got Tik Tok users, we got everything in between.

Tok users, we got everything in between. Tok users, we got everything in between. So, let's talk a little bit about what So, let's talk a little bit about what So, let's talk a little bit about what some of the challenges are in bridging some of the challenges are in bridging some of the challenges are in bridging that generational communication gap. that generational communication gap. that generational communication gap. Jason, you want to lead off on this one? Jason, you want to lead off on this one? Jason, you want to lead off on this one? Oh, Oh, Oh, >> this is such a fun one. Okay. So, so >> this is such a fun one. Okay. So, so >> this is such a fun one. Okay. So, so I'll typically when I work with I'll typically when I work with I'll typically when I work with churches, especially we're kind of churches, especially we're kind of churches, especially we're kind of building a new website, because we build building a new website, because we build building a new website, because we build a lot of church websites, I start with a lot of church websites, I start with a lot of church websites, I start with asking really important questions like, asking really important questions like, asking really important questions like, who's your target audience? who's your target audience? who's your target audience? >> Who who are you trying to reach? And >> Who who are you trying to reach? And >> Who who are you trying to reach? And then I compare that to, well, who you then I compare that to, well, who you then I compare that to, well, who you are, who are you right now? If I looked are, who are you right now? If I looked are, who are you right now? If I looked at across the, you know, the the worship at across the, you know, the the worship at across the, you know, the the worship center who I I probably see lots of center who I I probably see lots of center who I I probably see lots of generations and different cultural generations and different cultural generations and different cultural backgrounds of people, nationalities, backgrounds of people, nationalities, backgrounds of people, nationalities, all that kind of stuff, right? Probably all that kind of stuff, right? Probably all that kind of stuff, right? Probably maybe you see all that. And so I kind of maybe you see all that. And so I kind of maybe you see all that. And so I kind of start there to go, okay, well, if you're start there to go, okay, well, if you're start there to go, okay, well, if you're trying to communicate, you first have to trying to communicate, you first have to trying to communicate, you first have to understand the audience you're trying to understand the audience you're trying to understand the audience you're trying to communicate to. And so your website communicate to. And so your website communicate to. And so your website specifically is should be geared towards specifically is should be geared towards specifically is should be geared towards people who are not yet a part of your people who are not yet a part of your people who are not yet a part of your congregation, right? So we get into this congregation, right? So we get into this congregation, right? So we get into this deeper conversation about structuring deeper conversation about structuring deeper conversation about structuring the the right the right communication to the the right the right communication to the the right the right communication to the right audience and then the right audience and then the right audience and then understanding that particular audience understanding that particular audience understanding that particular audience how they like to receive information and how they like to receive information and how they like to receive information and how they use information. Right. And how they use information. Right. And how they use information. Right. And absolutely gets into the well you're not absolutely gets into the well you're not absolutely gets into the well you're not probably trying to grow older as a probably trying to grow older as a probably trying to grow older as a church. I very rarely have those church. I very rarely have those church. I very rarely have those conversations. Yeah Jason we have too conversations. Yeah Jason we have too conversations. Yeah Jason we have too many 20 year olds and 30y olds in our many 20 year olds and 30y olds in our many 20 year olds and 30y olds in our church. We're trying to reach the 40 50s church. We're trying to reach the 40 50s church. We're trying to reach the 40 50s and 60s. No one is saying that. And if and 60s. No one is saying that. And if and 60s. No one is saying that. And if that's your church, wow, that's your church, wow, that's your church, wow, I'd love to talk with you because I'd love to talk with you because I'd love to talk with you because >> I know I do know of one church that is >> I know I do know of one church that is >> I know I do know of one church that is in a retirement community and that is

in a retirement community and that is in a retirement community and that is their target. Their target is 55 plus their target. Their target is 55 plus their target. Their target is 55 plus because their community is 55, but they because their community is 55, but they because their community is 55, but they have those people. I don't know any have those people. I don't know any have those people. I don't know any church that has like a whole bunch of church that has like a whole bunch of church that has like a whole bunch of like 90% 20 and 30 year olds and they're like 90% 20 and 30 year olds and they're like 90% 20 and 30 year olds and they're trying to reach older people. Okay. So trying to reach older people. Okay. So trying to reach older people. Okay. So most churches in general, they're most churches in general, they're most churches in general, they're they're older and they're trying to grow they're older and they're trying to grow they're older and they're trying to grow younger unless that like you just said, younger unless that like you just said, younger unless that like you just said, they're in a in a zone in a geographical they're in a in a zone in a geographical they're in a in a zone in a geographical area that's like, "No, this is like area that's like, "No, this is like area that's like, "No, this is like retirement community village. We're in retirement community village. We're in retirement community village. We're in Florida." Um, okay. That's a whole Florida." Um, okay. That's a whole Florida." Um, okay. That's a whole different thing. But I think your your different thing. But I think your your different thing. But I think your your point is really really good. It's like point is really really good. It's like point is really really good. It's like how do you as a comm director, how how how do you as a comm director, how how how do you as a comm director, how how do you communicate to those specific do you communicate to those specific do you communicate to those specific audiences? You can't alienate especially audiences? You can't alienate especially audiences? You can't alienate especially the older generation. Duh. because those the older generation. Duh. because those the older generation. Duh. because those are usually the people that are really are usually the people that are really are usually the people that are really committed to your church. They give. committed to your church. They give. committed to your church. They give. They have a lot more disposal income. They have a lot more disposal income. They have a lot more disposal income. They give very regularly. Like that's They give very regularly. Like that's They give very regularly. Like that's their that's part of their DNA. And so their that's part of their DNA. And so their that's part of their DNA. And so you want to help them continue to be a you want to help them continue to be a you want to help them continue to be a disciple of Jesus. So you in my opinion, disciple of Jesus. So you in my opinion, disciple of Jesus. So you in my opinion, you got to really you can't just go, you got to really you can't just go, you got to really you can't just go, "Yeah, we're trying to phase out the "Yeah, we're trying to phase out the "Yeah, we're trying to phase out the bulletin."

bulletin." bulletin." Well, be careful about that because if Well, be careful about that because if Well, be careful about that because if you phase out that bulletin, you better you phase out that bulletin, you better you phase out that bulletin, you better supplement it with something that they supplement it with something that they supplement it with something that they can relate to because that audience is can relate to because that audience is can relate to because that audience is incredibly important. I'm thinking of incredibly important. I'm thinking of incredibly important. I'm thinking of Linda, Linda, Linda, >> Zach's mom. >> Zach's mom. >> Zach's mom. >> She needs a bulletin for sure. >> She needs a bulletin for sure. >> She needs a bulletin for sure. >> She needs a bulletin. That's how she >> She needs a bulletin. That's how she >> She needs a bulletin. That's how she That's how she communicates. So, you That's how she communicates. So, you That's how she communicates. So, you know, um it's not like you you you're know, um it's not like you you you're know, um it's not like you you you're trying to you're not trying to get rid trying to you're not trying to get rid trying to you're not trying to get rid of stuff. You're trying to say, "How do of stuff. You're trying to say, "How do of stuff. You're trying to say, "How do I help the people in our church I help the people in our church I help the people in our church understanding who they are and making understanding who they are and making understanding who they are and making sure that they get what they need sure that they get what they need sure that they get what they need without causing too much craziness for without causing too much craziness for without causing too much craziness for me?" It's like I'd be careful with that me?" It's like I'd be careful with that me?" It's like I'd be careful with that as well. Do you need to print 1500 as well. Do you need to print 1500 as well. Do you need to print 1500 bulletins for the 50 people? No. No. No. bulletins for the 50 people? No. No. No. bulletins for the 50 people? No. No. No. So, there's some common sense in in all So, there's some common sense in in all So, there's some common sense in in all that, but I think it's a pain point for that, but I think it's a pain point for that, but I think it's a pain point for a lot of contractors. a lot of contractors. a lot of contractors. >> Yeah. And what I like what you're saying >> Yeah. And what I like what you're saying >> Yeah. And what I like what you're saying is like you said um figuring out what is like you said um figuring out what is like you said um figuring out what that generation or that audience wants that generation or that audience wants that generation or that audience wants and needs. and needs. and needs. >> A lot of times we don't even ask them >> A lot of times we don't even ask them >> A lot of times we don't even ask them like we begin to like make assumptions like we begin to like make assumptions like we begin to like make assumptions and assessments. It's like you know 10 and assessments. It's like you know 10 and assessments. It's like you know 10 young adults in your church.

young adults in your church. young adults in your church. >> Why are we not asking them, hey what's >> Why are we not asking them, hey what's >> Why are we not asking them, hey what's your thoughts on the emails? Did you your thoughts on the emails? Did you your thoughts on the emails? Did you open it? Did you like it? Do you not open it? Did you like it? Do you not open it? Did you like it? Do you not like it? What about this post? What like it? What about this post? What like it? What about this post? What about bulletins? like what about this about bulletins? like what about this about bulletins? like what about this signage? You have access to ask them signage? You have access to ask them signage? You have access to ask them their feedback. We are intentionally their feedback. We are intentionally their feedback. We are intentionally trying to communicate to them trying to communicate to them trying to communicate to them >> so it's easy enough to ask them what >> so it's easy enough to ask them what >> so it's easy enough to ask them what they want. And with the bulletin, maybe they want. And with the bulletin, maybe they want. And with the bulletin, maybe we can figure out more creative and we can figure out more creative and we can figure out more creative and strategic ways so that way it cuts down strategic ways so that way it cuts down strategic ways so that way it cuts down work on us but still supplies it. work on us but still supplies it. work on us but still supplies it. Instead of a weekly bulletin, can we Instead of a weekly bulletin, can we Instead of a weekly bulletin, can we give you a monthly bulletin? Because give you a monthly bulletin? Because give you a monthly bulletin? Because most of that stuff stays on there for a most of that stuff stays on there for a most of that stuff stays on there for a month anyway. can instead of us having month anyway. can instead of us having month anyway. can instead of us having to work every week to do it, can we work to work every week to do it, can we work to work every week to do it, can we work once a month and give you what you need once a month and give you what you need once a month and give you what you need in that? So, I always encourage ask in that? So, I always encourage ask in that? So, I always encourage ask their feedback like do your research. their feedback like do your research. their feedback like do your research. Yes, data shows us and helps us Yes, data shows us and helps us Yes, data shows us and helps us understand an audience, but if we have understand an audience, but if we have understand an audience, but if we have direct access to them, we should be able direct access to them, we should be able direct access to them, we should be able to ask them and be able to figure out to ask them and be able to figure out to ask them and be able to figure out how can I bridge and reach your specific how can I bridge and reach your specific how can I bridge and reach your specific generation, too.

generation, too. generation, too. >> Yeah, that's good. We we've camped a bit >> Yeah, that's good. We we've camped a bit >> Yeah, that's good. We we've camped a bit here on the on the bulletin and I I do here on the on the bulletin and I I do here on the on the bulletin and I I do want to I want to come back to that in want to I want to come back to that in want to I want to come back to that in just a moment. But I think that you know just a moment. But I think that you know just a moment. But I think that you know one of the things that is a reality is one of the things that is a reality is one of the things that is a reality is that even beyond the bulletin there are that even beyond the bulletin there are that even beyond the bulletin there are different means or mechanisms by which different means or mechanisms by which different means or mechanisms by which we can be communicating to people when we can be communicating to people when we can be communicating to people when you start talking about email, text you start talking about email, text you start talking about email, text messages, your social media strategies messages, your social media strategies messages, your social media strategies and the like. I was on a call just this and the like. I was on a call just this and the like. I was on a call just this morning uh with a church that is on a morning uh with a church that is on a morning uh with a church that is on a university campus. everybody, you know, university campus. everybody, you know, university campus. everybody, you know, in their church is a university student in their church is a university student in their church is a university student or somewhere in that age range. Few or somewhere in that age range. Few or somewhere in that age range. Few faculty members, mostly university faculty members, mostly university faculty members, mostly university students. And we were talking about students. And we were talking about students. And we were talking about their social media strategy and what their social media strategy and what their social media strategy and what they're using social for. And I I asked they're using social for. And I I asked they're using social for. And I I asked the pastor, I said, "Um, have you ever the pastor, I said, "Um, have you ever the pastor, I said, "Um, have you ever asked these young people in your church asked these young people in your church asked these young people in your church what would be most helpful for them for what would be most helpful for them for what would be most helpful for them for you to be posting on Facebook and you to be posting on Facebook and you to be posting on Facebook and Instagram?" And she said, "No, I haven't Instagram?" And she said, "No, I haven't Instagram?" And she said, "No, I haven't ever actually done that." And I thought, ever actually done that." And I thought, ever actually done that." And I thought, she said, "I think that's probably a she said, "I think that's probably a she said, "I think that's probably a good idea." I said before you continue good idea." I said before you continue good idea." I said before you continue wasting and not say that you're wasting wasting and not say that you're wasting wasting and not say that you're wasting your time but you're spinning your your time but you're spinning your your time but you're spinning your wheels creating content or posting wheels creating content or posting wheels creating content or posting things on the social channels which things on the social channels which things on the social channels which you're not even 100% sure is you know you're not even 100% sure is you know you're not even 100% sure is you know there's a return on that investment there's a return on that investment there's a return on that investment start asking the question it's not a start asking the question it's not a start asking the question it's not a large church it's a smaller congregation large church it's a smaller congregation large church it's a smaller congregation you just ask the people what they're you just ask the people what they're you just ask the people what they're looking for what will be most helpful looking for what will be most helpful looking for what will be most helpful for them I'll come back to the bulletin for them I'll come back to the bulletin for them I'll come back to the bulletin you know you guys are are aware that you you know you guys are are aware that you you know you guys are are aware that you know outside of my work with missional know outside of my work with missional know outside of my work with missional marketing I do some church marketing I do some church marketing I do some church revitalization coaching and all these revitalization coaching and all these revitalization coaching and all these churches that I'm working with in the churches that I'm working with in the churches that I'm working with in the church revitalization space uh tend to church revitalization space uh tend to church revitalization space uh tend to be very small aging congregations. I

be very small aging congregations. I be very small aging congregations. I visit them from time to time. They visit them from time to time. They visit them from time to time. They always have a bulletin. The bulletin always have a bulletin. The bulletin always have a bulletin. The bulletin always has a detailed service order always has a detailed service order always has a detailed service order written in it. What you know what written in it. What you know what written in it. What you know what prayers we're saying, what scriptures prayers we're saying, what scriptures prayers we're saying, what scriptures we're reading. I know it's very very we're reading. I know it's very very we're reading. I know it's very very detailed. Um it's always got the detailed. Um it's always got the detailed. Um it's always got the birthday and the anniversary list in it. birthday and the anniversary list in it. birthday and the anniversary list in it. It's always got the the food items It's always got the the food items It's always got the the food items needed for the food pantry or whatever needed for the food pantry or whatever needed for the food pantry or whatever it is. It's got all those details in it. it is. It's got all those details in it. it is. It's got all those details in it. And when I'm working with those And when I'm working with those And when I'm working with those churches, one of the things that I I churches, one of the things that I I churches, one of the things that I I challenge them to do is not replace the challenge them to do is not replace the challenge them to do is not replace the bulletin, but to ask themselves if new bulletin, but to ask themselves if new bulletin, but to ask themselves if new people were coming on Sunday mornings people were coming on Sunday mornings people were coming on Sunday mornings and you put a bulletin in their hand, and you put a bulletin in their hand, and you put a bulletin in their hand, what is that bulletin communicating to what is that bulletin communicating to what is that bulletin communicating to them? I'm actually a bulletin fan. And them? I'm actually a bulletin fan. And them? I'm actually a bulletin fan. And the reason I'm a bulletin fan is that as the reason I'm a bulletin fan is that as the reason I'm a bulletin fan is that as a pastor and a church planter, I know a pastor and a church planter, I know a pastor and a church planter, I know that sometimes new people come to my that sometimes new people come to my that sometimes new people come to my church and they're looking for something church and they're looking for something church and they're looking for something to do that's not talking to people that to do that's not talking to people that to do that's not talking to people that they don't know. There there there are they don't know. There there there are they don't know. There there there are some of those people that I I want to some of those people that I I want to some of those people that I I want to have a good church experience, but I'm have a good church experience, but I'm have a good church experience, but I'm not really an extroverted person and I'm not really an extroverted person and I'm not really an extroverted person and I'm not here to meet everybody. So, what can not here to meet everybody. So, what can not here to meet everybody. So, what can I do? I do? I do? >> Well, those are the people that will >> Well, those are the people that will >> Well, those are the people that will take your bulletin and they'll go sit take your bulletin and they'll go sit take your bulletin and they'll go sit down on the second to the back row and down on the second to the back row and down on the second to the back row and try to hide before the service starts try to hide before the service starts try to hide before the service starts and they will read the bulletin from and they will read the bulletin from and they will read the bulletin from cover to cover. So, the question is cover to cover. So, the question is cover to cover. So, the question is what's in the bulletin and does it help what's in the bulletin and does it help what's in the bulletin and does it help them? So, I'm thinking about the them? So, I'm thinking about the them? So, I'm thinking about the bulletin from both angles is okay, let's bulletin from both angles is okay, let's bulletin from both angles is okay, let's continue to honor the tradition of the continue to honor the tradition of the continue to honor the tradition of the past of having a bulletin for the past of having a bulletin for the past of having a bulletin for the generation of people that need that generation of people that need that generation of people that need that tangible piece of paper in their hand on tangible piece of paper in their hand on tangible piece of paper in their hand on Sundays, but also what kind of content Sundays, but also what kind of content Sundays, but also what kind of content that can we supplement or add into that that can we supplement or add into that that can we supplement or add into that bulletin that makes it, you know, that bulletin that makes it, you know, that bulletin that makes it, you know, that that makes it helpful for the new

that makes it helpful for the new that makes it helpful for the new people. I went to see a a musical uh people. I went to see a a musical uh people. I went to see a a musical uh this weekend and I took a picture of the this weekend and I took a picture of the this weekend and I took a picture of the play bill and I I texted it to Zack play bill and I I texted it to Zack play bill and I I texted it to Zack because Zach likes to Zach likes to go because Zach likes to Zach likes to go because Zach likes to Zach likes to go to musicals and I go to musicals from to musicals and I go to musicals from to musicals and I go to musicals from time to time. So, I wanted him to know time to time. So, I wanted him to know time to time. So, I wanted him to know that I'm I'm doing a Zach thing and that I'm I'm doing a Zach thing and that I'm I'm doing a Zach thing and going to see a musical. But what did I going to see a musical. But what did I going to see a musical. But what did I do? While I was waiting for the show to do? While I was waiting for the show to do? While I was waiting for the show to start, I reading through the bios of the start, I reading through the bios of the start, I reading through the bios of the actors, the performers, the, you know, actors, the performers, the, you know, actors, the performers, the, you know, the the whole I'm I'm trying to learn the the whole I'm I'm trying to learn the the whole I'm I'm trying to learn about what's about to happen, what I'm about what's about to happen, what I'm about what's about to happen, what I'm about to see. And I think that that play about to see. And I think that that play about to see. And I think that that play bill, so to speak, quote unquote, bill, so to speak, quote unquote, bill, so to speak, quote unquote, bulletin, is something that can be bulletin, is something that can be bulletin, is something that can be useful both for that demographic in your useful both for that demographic in your useful both for that demographic in your congregation that needs the piece of congregation that needs the piece of congregation that needs the piece of paper, but also for new people are paper, but also for new people are paper, but also for new people are coming into church that need to learn coming into church that need to learn coming into church that need to learn something about your church and the something about your church and the something about your church and the experience they're going to have. experience they're going to have. experience they're going to have. There's my 10 cents worth there. There's my 10 cents worth there. There's my 10 cents worth there. >> What I'm hearing is that churches need >> What I'm hearing is that churches need >> What I'm hearing is that churches need to bring in play bills. So, we need head to bring in play bills. So, we need head to bring in play bills. So, we need head shot and bios of the worship team, the shot and bios of the worship team, the shot and bios of the worship team, the the lead pastor. the lead pastor. the lead pastor. >> I'm bad idea. No, that's that is a >> I'm bad idea. No, that's that is a >> I'm bad idea. No, that's that is a terrible idea. You have a lot of good terrible idea. You have a lot of good terrible idea. You have a lot of good ideas. That one. ideas. That one. ideas. That one. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> Let's No. No. B. No. Bios of the worship >> Let's No. No. B. No. Bios of the worship >> Let's No. No. B. No. Bios of the worship team. team. team. >> That might get us in trouble more often >> That might get us in trouble more often >> That might get us in trouble more often than it helps actually.

than it helps actually. than it helps actually. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Okay. Let's go to pain point number >> Okay. Let's go to pain point number >> Okay. Let's go to pain point number three. You ready? Uh we've talked about three. You ready? Uh we've talked about three. You ready? Uh we've talked about this one on this podcast often. And this this one on this podcast often. And this this one on this podcast often. And this is also something that we address from is also something that we address from is also something that we address from time to time in our road show. And that time to time in our road show. And that time to time in our road show. And that is the approval bottleneck. Too many is the approval bottleneck. Too many is the approval bottleneck. Too many people who have too much say in what people who have too much say in what people who have too much say in what gets communicated in the church. like gets communicated in the church. like gets communicated in the church. like who's who gets the final say on what who's who gets the final say on what who's who gets the final say on what announcements get made on the platform announcements get made on the platform announcements get made on the platform on Sunday, who makes the final decision on Sunday, who makes the final decision on Sunday, who makes the final decision about what gets printed in the bulletin about what gets printed in the bulletin about what gets printed in the bulletin or what gets sent out in the newsletter or what gets sent out in the newsletter or what gets sent out in the newsletter or what gets posted on social media. or what gets posted on social media. or what gets posted on social media. Let's let's let's talk about sort of the Let's let's let's talk about sort of the Let's let's let's talk about sort of the um design by committee frustrations or um design by committee frustrations or um design by committee frustrations or the communication by committee the communication by committee the communication by committee frustrations that comm directors often frustrations that comm directors often frustrations that comm directors often face. Well, we we first have to know face. Well, we we first have to know face. Well, we we first have to know a little, you know, we first have to a little, you know, we first have to a little, you know, we first have to know who we are. And we're not the know who we are. And we're not the know who we are. And we're not the decision makers often on some things and decision makers often on some things and decision makers often on some things and some things we we are. Um, if you're not some things we we are. Um, if you're not some things we we are. Um, if you're not sure, you need to find out. How do you sure, you need to find out. How do you sure, you need to find out. How do you do that? Ask your boss. And I would do that? Ask your boss. And I would do that? Ask your boss. And I would start to define, you just said something start to define, you just said something start to define, you just said something that I I always give this advice. that I I always give this advice. that I I always give this advice. Whatever happens on stage is not my Whatever happens on stage is not my Whatever happens on stage is not my decision.

decision. decision. >> That's the worship team with the lead >> That's the worship team with the lead >> That's the worship team with the lead pastor. what announcements are going to pastor. what announcements are going to pastor. what announcements are going to get communicated. That's for them to get communicated. That's for them to get communicated. That's for them to decide. What I want to do is influence decide. What I want to do is influence decide. What I want to do is influence that, right? Because I'm I'm not there. that, right? Because I'm I'm not there. that, right? Because I'm I'm not there. I mean, you all have your order of I mean, you all have your order of I mean, you all have your order of worship and it probably doesn't it worship and it probably doesn't it worship and it probably doesn't it probably stays the same every single probably stays the same every single probably stays the same every single time. And so, like at my church, they do time. And so, like at my church, they do time. And so, like at my church, they do a video announcement. Now, I'm I'm a video announcement. Now, I'm I'm a video announcement. Now, I'm I'm guessing in that video announcement, the guessing in that video announcement, the guessing in that video announcement, the comm's director has some authority on comm's director has some authority on comm's director has some authority on we're going to communicate this, this, we're going to communicate this, this, we're going to communicate this, this, and this. But that's typically decided and this. But that's typically decided and this. But that's typically decided typically by the leadership team. Okay. typically by the leadership team. Okay. typically by the leadership team. Okay. So it depends on the medium what goes So it depends on the medium what goes So it depends on the medium what goes into social media. That's that's pretty into social media. That's that's pretty into social media. That's that's pretty much my job. I'm going to determine what much my job. I'm going to determine what much my job. I'm going to determine what I'm going to promote and what how I'm I'm going to promote and what how I'm I'm going to promote and what how I'm going to promote it in social media or going to promote it in social media or going to promote it in social media or on our website in our e- newswsletter on our website in our e- newswsletter on our website in our e- newswsletter type the weekly email newsletter that type the weekly email newsletter that type the weekly email newsletter that kind of a thing. But I think you first kind of a thing. But I think you first kind of a thing. But I think you first have to ask your boss have to ask your boss have to ask your boss who who's who makes these decisions. So, who who's who makes these decisions. So, who who's who makes these decisions. So, if you haven't had that conversation, if you haven't had that conversation, if you haven't had that conversation, you need to under you need to go get you need to under you need to go get you need to under you need to go get that figured out. Certainly, uh, you that figured out. Certainly, uh, you that figured out. Certainly, uh, you know, you if you're if you're the com know, you if you're if you're the com know, you if you're if you're the com director, I'm guessing you're not director, I'm guessing you're not director, I'm guessing you're not telling the lead pastor, "Okay, pastor, telling the lead pastor, "Okay, pastor, telling the lead pastor, "Okay, pastor, I need you to make these two I need you to make these two I need you to make these two announcements. Here's what you're going announcements. Here's what you're going announcements. Here's what you're going to say bullet points. Go ahead and do to say bullet points. Go ahead and do to say bullet points. Go ahead and do that." If that's you, awesome. I mean, that." If that's you, awesome. I mean, that." If that's you, awesome. I mean, that's pretty cool. It's usually not that's pretty cool. It's usually not that's pretty cool. It's usually not that way. I mean, so I think it's first that way. I mean, so I think it's first that way. I mean, so I think it's first understanding who the who's making these understanding who the who's making these understanding who the who's making these approvals and what space do you live in.

approvals and what space do you live in. approvals and what space do you live in. That probably comes with some That probably comes with some That probably comes with some experience. If you're a comm director experience. If you're a comm director experience. If you're a comm director that's been in this position for 15 that's been in this position for 15 that's been in this position for 15 years and you're on the leadership team, years and you're on the leadership team, years and you're on the leadership team, you probably have more clout and more you probably have more clout and more you probably have more clout and more decision- making than if you're brand decision- making than if you're brand decision- making than if you're brand new. You know, you're a couple years on new. You know, you're a couple years on new. You know, you're a couple years on the job type of thing and you're the job type of thing and you're the job type of thing and you're learning the ropes a little bit. But I learning the ropes a little bit. But I learning the ropes a little bit. But I think all of all of if you if it's hazy, think all of all of if you if it's hazy, think all of all of if you if it's hazy, you're not quite sure, you get to you you're not quite sure, you get to you you're not quite sure, you get to you got to go get some clarity and you got got to go get some clarity and you got got to go get some clarity and you got to have that conversation figure out on to have that conversation figure out on to have that conversation figure out on these different platforms, either these different platforms, either these different platforms, either website, social media, on stage, email, website, social media, on stage, email, website, social media, on stage, email, newsletter, who has the decision-making newsletter, who has the decision-making newsletter, who has the decision-making authority? And of course, what does that authority? And of course, what does that authority? And of course, what does that look like? Can my lead pastor always look like? Can my lead pastor always look like? Can my lead pastor always come down and and trump it and say, "I'm come down and and trump it and say, "I'm come down and and trump it and say, "I'm gonna I want this." Of course, probably. gonna I want this." Of course, probably. gonna I want this." Of course, probably. But have that conversation. I Zach, what But have that conversation. I Zach, what But have that conversation. I Zach, what do you think? do you think? do you think? >> Yeah. And the question I would always >> Yeah. And the question I would always >> Yeah. And the question I would always ask there is, is this information ask there is, is this information ask there is, is this information documented? Because in the church world, documented? Because in the church world, documented? Because in the church world, we don't really document flowcharts. We we don't really document flowcharts. We we don't really document flowcharts. We don't document structure and order don't document structure and order don't document structure and order there. So there there. So there there. So there >> I was on a call with um a comms director >> I was on a call with um a comms director >> I was on a call with um a comms director and the kids ministry pastor didn't like and the kids ministry pastor didn't like and the kids ministry pastor didn't like something that was going on social something that was going on social something that was going on social media.

media. media. I don't care. Like you're the kids I don't care. Like you're the kids I don't care. Like you're the kids pastor. Like what do you have to do with pastor. Like what do you have to do with pastor. Like what do you have to do with any of this? But they have created a any of this? But they have created a any of this? But they have created a culture where there were no boundaries culture where there were no boundaries culture where there were no boundaries in regards to what you get to speak in regards to what you get to speak in regards to what you get to speak into. We need to make sure as lead into. We need to make sure as lead into. We need to make sure as lead pastors and XPs that we do have a pastors and XPs that we do have a pastors and XPs that we do have a flowchart of exactly what you're saying. flowchart of exactly what you're saying. flowchart of exactly what you're saying. This is what's who's responsible for on This is what's who's responsible for on This is what's who's responsible for on stage. This is who gets to speak into stage. This is who gets to speak into stage. This is who gets to speak into that. That's the hardest part for us as that. That's the hardest part for us as that. That's the hardest part for us as comm's directors because sometimes we do comm's directors because sometimes we do comm's directors because sometimes we do inherit a culture where people get to inherit a culture where people get to inherit a culture where people get to make all the decisions that have no make all the decisions that have no make all the decisions that have no space into that. And this is where we space into that. And this is where we space into that. And this is where we get to lead up is making sure that we're get to lead up is making sure that we're get to lead up is making sure that we're connecting and helping people see their connecting and helping people see their connecting and helping people see their part in the mission. I want them to tie part in the mission. I want them to tie part in the mission. I want them to tie their identity into the mission of the their identity into the mission of the their identity into the mission of the church, not necessarily the decisions church, not necessarily the decisions church, not necessarily the decisions that they make or even what they that they make or even what they that they make or even what they produce. Because the the kids pastor, produce. Because the the kids pastor, produce. Because the the kids pastor, she or he might feel that like, oh, I'm she or he might feel that like, oh, I'm she or he might feel that like, oh, I'm always making this decision, but your always making this decision, but your always making this decision, but your mission in this church and your purpose mission in this church and your purpose mission in this church and your purpose here is to minister to children and to here is to minister to children and to here is to minister to children and to create a safe environment for them and create a safe environment for them and create a safe environment for them and their families. That is not correlated their families. That is not correlated their families. That is not correlated to what's being posted on social media.

to what's being posted on social media. to what's being posted on social media. So in order for us to all be cohesive So in order for us to all be cohesive So in order for us to all be cohesive and working towards the goal, I need you and working towards the goal, I need you and working towards the goal, I need you to stay with inside that lane. And to stay with inside that lane. And to stay with inside that lane. And sometimes these this stuff is not sometimes these this stuff is not sometimes these this stuff is not documented and we need to have honest documented and we need to have honest documented and we need to have honest conversations as leadership of how do we conversations as leadership of how do we conversations as leadership of how do we create those boundaries and how do we create those boundaries and how do we create those boundaries and how do we attach people to their mission rather attach people to their mission rather attach people to their mission rather than the things that they're doing, the than the things that they're doing, the than the things that they're doing, the decisions that they make. decisions that they make. decisions that they make. >> Yeah. And I think uh I'm gonna give a >> Yeah. And I think uh I'm gonna give a >> Yeah. And I think uh I'm gonna give a little plug here. Uh there's a new tool little plug here. Uh there's a new tool little plug here. Uh there's a new tool that my friend Cameron created called that my friend Cameron created called that my friend Cameron created called communicate.app. communicate.app. communicate.app. Mh. Mh. Mh. >> So go to communicate.app. He created a >> So go to communicate.app. He created a >> So go to communicate.app. He created a calendar system where you can, you know, calendar system where you can, you know, calendar system where you can, you know, the staff can see it, but not everybody the staff can see it, but not everybody the staff can see it, but not everybody can edit it. But you can see what's can edit it. But you can see what's can edit it. But you can see what's going to get communicated and what going to get communicated and what going to get communicated and what platform and what day. And you want to platform and what day. And you want to platform and what day. And you want to check that out because I think half of check that out because I think half of check that out because I think half of it is just letting the the staff know, it is just letting the the staff know, it is just letting the the staff know, hey, here's what's happening in social hey, here's what's happening in social hey, here's what's happening in social this week. Here's what's going in the this week. Here's what's going in the this week. Here's what's going in the newsletter. Here's what's going going to newsletter. Here's what's going going to newsletter. Here's what's going going to be announced on the stage this weekend. be announced on the stage this weekend. be announced on the stage this weekend. That type of a thing. And so making sure That type of a thing. And so making sure That type of a thing. And so making sure everybody can see that is is pretty darn everybody can see that is is pretty darn everybody can see that is is pretty darn important. But who can edit that and and important. But who can edit that and and important. But who can edit that and and actually get approval for that? You need actually get approval for that? You need actually get approval for that? You need to have those conversations.

to have those conversations. to have those conversations. >> One of the things I would emphasize at >> One of the things I would emphasize at >> One of the things I would emphasize at this point is that as the comm's this point is that as the comm's this point is that as the comm's director, you may not have authority director, you may not have authority director, you may not have authority over the decisions in all of those over the decisions in all of those over the decisions in all of those places. But one thing that you have to places. But one thing that you have to places. But one thing that you have to um I would fight for is the authority to um I would fight for is the authority to um I would fight for is the authority to guard the brand and guard the messaging. guard the brand and guard the messaging. guard the brand and guard the messaging. So somebody on the staff has to be the So somebody on the staff has to be the So somebody on the staff has to be the keeper of the church culture. And the keeper of the church culture. And the keeper of the church culture. And the culture is disseminated through what you culture is disseminated through what you culture is disseminated through what you say, the way you say it, visual say, the way you say it, visual say, the way you say it, visual identity, the words that you use. And so identity, the words that you use. And so identity, the words that you use. And so I would say as the comm's director, you I would say as the comm's director, you I would say as the comm's director, you really want to have ownership of that. really want to have ownership of that. really want to have ownership of that. You may not have ownership over You may not have ownership over You may not have ownership over everything that gets said or everything everything that gets said or everything everything that gets said or everything that gets published or everything that that gets published or everything that that gets published or everything that gets emailed or distributed, but you gets emailed or distributed, but you gets emailed or distributed, but you want to have the final say in the way want to have the final say in the way want to have the final say in the way that it gets communicated. that at the that it gets communicated. that at the that it gets communicated. that at the end of the day, we as church ministers, end of the day, we as church ministers, end of the day, we as church ministers, whether we're in comms or we're whether we're in comms or we're whether we're in comms or we're preaching or we're leading worship or preaching or we're leading worship or preaching or we're leading worship or doing kids or family ministry, whatever doing kids or family ministry, whatever doing kids or family ministry, whatever it is, we have a limited amount of it is, we have a limited amount of it is, we have a limited amount of people's time and attention because people's time and attention because people's time and attention because there's so many other things vying for there's so many other things vying for there's so many other things vying for their time and their attention. The their time and their attention. The their time and their attention. The attention span is super super short. So attention span is super super short. So attention span is super super short. So we need to become experts in saying what we need to become experts in saying what we need to become experts in saying what we need to say and making sure that we need to say and making sure that we need to say and making sure that people hear what we want them to hear people hear what we want them to hear people hear what we want them to hear with a little bit of time and attention with a little bit of time and attention with a little bit of time and attention that we get from them. And so as the the that we get from them. And so as the the that we get from them. And so as the the comm's director, you've got to be an comm's director, you've got to be an comm's director, you've got to be an expert in that. How do we say what we expert in that. How do we say what we expert in that. How do we say what we need to say in the timing and on the need to say in the timing and on the need to say in the timing and on the platforms with the right words that platforms with the right words that platforms with the right words that communicate our culture, the communicate our culture, the communicate our culture, the expectations, um uphold our values and expectations, um uphold our values and expectations, um uphold our values and and get people to respond the way that

and get people to respond the way that and get people to respond the way that we want them to respond. So, at the end we want them to respond. So, at the end we want them to respond. So, at the end of the day, you know, the buck does stop of the day, you know, the buck does stop of the day, you know, the buck does stop with you, the comm's director. And if with you, the comm's director. And if with you, the comm's director. And if the buck is going to stop with you to the buck is going to stop with you to the buck is going to stop with you to make sure that people know what they're make sure that people know what they're make sure that people know what they're supposed to know when they're supposed supposed to know when they're supposed supposed to know when they're supposed to know it, then you've got to have some to know it, then you've got to have some to know it, then you've got to have some level of ownership there. And and and level of ownership there. And and and level of ownership there. And and and those are the things that I would those are the things that I would those are the things that I would probably fight for in those those probably fight for in those those probably fight for in those those situations. You can't you can't fight situations. You can't you can't fight situations. You can't you can't fight for everything. You can't win for everything. You can't win for everything. You can't win everything, but guarding the messaging everything, but guarding the messaging everything, but guarding the messaging is what I would what I would be fighting is what I would what I would be fighting is what I would what I would be fighting for. Um I'm watching the clock here. for. Um I'm watching the clock here. for. Um I'm watching the clock here. We're we're going to get through all We're we're going to get through all We're we're going to get through all four of these top four pain points. four of these top four pain points. four of these top four pain points. Okay. The fourth one, um, this one is Okay. The fourth one, um, this one is Okay. The fourth one, um, this one is one, again, this is probably not as one, again, this is probably not as one, again, this is probably not as verbalized a pain point as some of the verbalized a pain point as some of the verbalized a pain point as some of the others are, but I think it's it's a felt others are, but I think it's it's a felt others are, but I think it's it's a felt pain point, and that is measuring my pain point, and that is measuring my pain point, and that is measuring my impact in my ministry. Uh, how do I, as impact in my ministry. Uh, how do I, as impact in my ministry. Uh, how do I, as a communications director, know that a communications director, know that a communications director, know that what I'm doing is actually making a what I'm doing is actually making a what I'm doing is actually making a difference in people's spiritual lives? difference in people's spiritual lives? difference in people's spiritual lives? The the the success metrics for The the the success metrics for The the the success metrics for communications are kind of fuzzy. other communications are kind of fuzzy. other communications are kind of fuzzy. other than likes on Facebook, how do I know if than likes on Facebook, how do I know if than likes on Facebook, how do I know if what I'm doing is actually mattering?

what I'm doing is actually mattering? what I'm doing is actually mattering? Jason, you on one of our recent podcast Jason, you on one of our recent podcast Jason, you on one of our recent podcast episodes, uh, you were sharing about the episodes, uh, you were sharing about the episodes, uh, you were sharing about the fact that you took blame from ministries fact that you took blame from ministries fact that you took blame from ministries uh, when you were a comm's director when uh, when you were a comm's director when uh, when you were a comm's director when they didn't have enough people show up they didn't have enough people show up they didn't have enough people show up to do their thing. Well, that was the to do their thing. Well, that was the to do their thing. Well, that was the communication director's fault. No, it communication director's fault. No, it communication director's fault. No, it wasn't the communication director's wasn't the communication director's wasn't the communication director's fault, but you're being measured by fault, but you're being measured by fault, but you're being measured by those metrics. Um, Jason, why don't you those metrics. Um, Jason, why don't you those metrics. Um, Jason, why don't you speak a little bit to that? just that speak a little bit to that? just that speak a little bit to that? just that measuring ministry impact from a comm's measuring ministry impact from a comm's measuring ministry impact from a comm's perspective. perspective. perspective. >> Well, I said earlier this is a ministry. >> Well, I said earlier this is a ministry. >> Well, I said earlier this is a ministry. You know, you're not just somebody in a You know, you're not just somebody in a You know, you're not just somebody in a cubicle that's told to do this or do cubicle that's told to do this or do cubicle that's told to do this or do that. I I think you need to if that's if that. I I think you need to if that's if that. I I think you need to if that's if that's your if that's where you actually that's your if that's where you actually that's your if that's where you actually sit, you know, work to get out of that sit, you know, work to get out of that sit, you know, work to get out of that because you have an important really because you have an important really because you have an important really really important ministry. And so, uh I really important ministry. And so, uh I really important ministry. And so, uh I I tend to break it down into layers. So I tend to break it down into layers. So I tend to break it down into layers. So maybe at the the very first layer is maybe at the the very first layer is maybe at the the very first layer is things that you can control. So what are things that you can control. So what are things that you can control. So what are you measuring? Let's talk about your you measuring? Let's talk about your you measuring? Let's talk about your analytics on your website. Is your analytics on your website. Is your analytics on your website. Is your website visitors, you know, up over last website visitors, you know, up over last website visitors, you know, up over last year? Is the conversions up over last year? Is the conversions up over last year? Is the conversions up over last year? Let's look at your email open year? Let's look at your email open year? Let's look at your email open rates. Are they consistently going up?

rates. Are they consistently going up? rates. Are they consistently going up? Is it going down? What's going on there? Is it going down? What's going on there? Is it going down? What's going on there? Um social media, let's look at the Um social media, let's look at the Um social media, let's look at the metrics. So you have tools that you can metrics. So you have tools that you can metrics. So you have tools that you can look at the metrics to see if you're look at the metrics to see if you're look at the metrics to see if you're winning or not. just from the standpoint winning or not. just from the standpoint winning or not. just from the standpoint of a number. Okay. So, I first want to of a number. Okay. So, I first want to of a number. Okay. So, I first want to wrap my arms around that layer of going, wrap my arms around that layer of going, wrap my arms around that layer of going, what is it that I control that I can I what is it that I control that I can I what is it that I control that I can I can look at. So, if my lead pastor comes can look at. So, if my lead pastor comes can look at. So, if my lead pastor comes and says, how we doing on our emails and says, how we doing on our emails and says, how we doing on our emails last couple years? You have that ready. last couple years? You have that ready. last couple years? You have that ready. You don't want to just sit there and go, You don't want to just sit there and go, You don't want to just sit there and go, I don't know. It's a good question. I don't know. It's a good question. I don't know. It's a good question. You're not doing your job, you know. So, You're not doing your job, you know. So, You're not doing your job, you know. So, make sure you understand what that is. make sure you understand what that is. make sure you understand what that is. The second layer would be from a The second layer would be from a The second layer would be from a ministry's p point of view, right? So, ministry's p point of view, right? So, ministry's p point of view, right? So, kids ministry, young adults, adults, um, kids ministry, young adults, adults, um, kids ministry, young adults, adults, um, what metrics are you guys measuring and what metrics are you guys measuring and what metrics are you guys measuring and how can I play a role in that as a how can I play a role in that as a how can I play a role in that as a comm's director? I want to help you win, comm's director? I want to help you win, comm's director? I want to help you win, right? So, I want to I want to be in right? So, I want to I want to be in right? So, I want to I want to be in tune with that layer of of of numbers tune with that layer of of of numbers tune with that layer of of of numbers and it may be pushing them. Maybe they and it may be pushing them. Maybe they and it may be pushing them. Maybe they have no clue. Well, how can I help you have no clue. Well, how can I help you have no clue. Well, how can I help you track your numbers? Not that we're just track your numbers? Not that we're just track your numbers? Not that we're just always dialed by a number, but I'll tell always dialed by a number, but I'll tell always dialed by a number, but I'll tell you what, you want to be moving the you what, you want to be moving the you what, you want to be moving the needle on getting more numbers because needle on getting more numbers because needle on getting more numbers because every number represents a person that every number represents a person that every number represents a person that represents a story that God loves and represents a story that God loves and represents a story that God loves and has changed, wants to change. So even has changed, wants to change. So even has changed, wants to change. So even though we get wrapped up in sometimes though we get wrapped up in sometimes though we get wrapped up in sometimes wrapped up in, we want to have more wrapped up in, we want to have more wrapped up in, we want to have more numbers. Well, that it's the people numbers. Well, that it's the people numbers. Well, that it's the people that's the numbers. So that's the numbers. So that's the numbers. So >> that's a third the the top one would be >> that's a third the the top one would be >> that's a third the the top one would be as a church. I I was just on a call as a church. I I was just on a call as a church. I I was just on a call because we you know we build websites.

because we you know we build websites. because we you know we build websites. So, I was talking to this leadership So, I was talking to this leadership So, I was talking to this leadership team about their website and I was team about their website and I was team about their website and I was asking some basic questions. How many asking some basic questions. How many asking some basic questions. How many baptisms did you have last year compared baptisms did you have last year compared baptisms did you have last year compared to the year before? to the year before? to the year before? They didn't know. How many people said They didn't know. How many people said They didn't know. How many people said yes to Jesus this last year from the yes to Jesus this last year from the yes to Jesus this last year from the year before? year before? year before? They didn't know how many people are in They didn't know how many people are in They didn't know how many people are in groups because you told me groups is an groups because you told me groups is an groups because you told me groups is an important component of your church. How important component of your church. How important component of your church. How many people are in groups this year many people are in groups this year many people are in groups this year compared to last year? and and you know compared to last year? and and you know compared to last year? and and you know and we didn't I I don't really push hard and we didn't I I don't really push hard and we didn't I I don't really push hard but I kind of planted the seeds to go but I kind of planted the seeds to go but I kind of planted the seeds to go you know it would be good to know that you know it would be good to know that you know it would be good to know that because that is the stuff that we can because that is the stuff that we can because that is the stuff that we can help move the needle on because it's help move the needle on because it's help move the needle on because it's important to make sure that you know important to make sure that you know important to make sure that you know we're we're winning more people to we're we're winning more people to we're we're winning more people to Jesus. This is what we're called to do. Jesus. This is what we're called to do. Jesus. This is what we're called to do. Love God, love people, make disciples. Love God, love people, make disciples. Love God, love people, make disciples. And so if you don't really know your And so if you don't really know your And so if you don't really know your numbers, how do you know you're how do numbers, how do you know you're how do numbers, how do you know you're how do you know if you're winning? And as a you know if you're winning? And as a you know if you're winning? And as a comm director, your job is to support comm director, your job is to support comm director, your job is to support the goals and the direction of the the goals and the direction of the the goals and the direction of the leadership of your lead pastor. You're leadership of your lead pastor. You're leadership of your lead pastor. You're not setting those goals. Maybe you're not setting those goals. Maybe you're not setting those goals. Maybe you're part of the conversation, but they're part of the conversation, but they're part of the conversation, but they're the ones that that should be setting the ones that that should be setting the ones that that should be setting those goals. And so, um, I always look those goals. And so, um, I always look those goals. And so, um, I always look at that because I'm going, hm, okay, we at that because I'm going, hm, okay, we at that because I'm going, hm, okay, we want to have more. We want to have a want to have more. We want to have a want to have more. We want to have a baptism weekend. What kind of story can baptism weekend. What kind of story can baptism weekend. What kind of story can I go get that's going to communicate I go get that's going to communicate I go get that's going to communicate that baptism helps with life change? So that baptism helps with life change? So that baptism helps with life change? So instead of just saying, "Hey, we're instead of just saying, "Hey, we're instead of just saying, "Hey, we're having a baptism weekend." We're having a baptism weekend." We're having a baptism weekend." We're actually telling a story, that's the actually telling a story, that's the actually telling a story, that's the contractor's job. I can play a role in contractor's job. I can play a role in contractor's job. I can play a role in getting more people to say yes to Jesus

getting more people to say yes to Jesus getting more people to say yes to Jesus and get baptized because of stories. Oh, and get baptized because of stories. Oh, and get baptized because of stories. Oh, that's me. I'll go I'll go find some that's me. I'll go I'll go find some that's me. I'll go I'll go find some stories or I'll ask the ministries about stories or I'll ask the ministries about stories or I'll ask the ministries about people they know and I'll run with that. people they know and I'll run with that. people they know and I'll run with that. Right? That that's a way that you can Right? That that's a way that you can Right? That that's a way that you can play into helping your team, your your play into helping your team, your your play into helping your team, your your staff, your church uh win. And that that staff, your church uh win. And that that staff, your church uh win. And that that there is the ROI at least. There's a lot there is the ROI at least. There's a lot there is the ROI at least. There's a lot more to that, but Zach, what do you more to that, but Zach, what do you more to that, but Zach, what do you think about that? think about that? think about that? >> Yeah. And what you brought up is like >> Yeah. And what you brought up is like >> Yeah. And what you brought up is like yes, like we want pastor comes to you, yes, like we want pastor comes to you, yes, like we want pastor comes to you, we want baptisms. And so, yes, we're we want baptisms. And so, yes, we're we want baptisms. And so, yes, we're using stories, we're able to get that, using stories, we're able to get that, using stories, we're able to get that, but something that we have to train but something that we have to train but something that we have to train ourselves and our leadership to ourselves and our leadership to ourselves and our leadership to recognize is that numerical impact on recognize is that numerical impact on recognize is that numerical impact on different platforms does not equal the different platforms does not equal the different platforms does not equal the same output. So, if I'm only pushing same output. So, if I'm only pushing same output. So, if I'm only pushing baptism stories on social media, I know baptism stories on social media, I know baptism stories on social media, I know 95% of the people that see my content do 95% of the people that see my content do 95% of the people that see my content do not go to my church. So, if I'm saying not go to my church. So, if I'm saying not go to my church. So, if I'm saying baptism was not successful because of baptism was not successful because of baptism was not successful because of our social media numbers, that is an our social media numbers, that is an our social media numbers, that is an unrealistic expectation that we just set unrealistic expectation that we just set unrealistic expectation that we just set and then everybody feels uh defeated.

and then everybody feels uh defeated. and then everybody feels uh defeated. But if I want baptisms to be successful, But if I want baptisms to be successful, But if I want baptisms to be successful, I need to storyt tell where in my I need to storyt tell where in my I need to storyt tell where in my emails. Because email are people that emails. Because email are people that emails. Because email are people that are bought into what we're doing. are bought into what we're doing. are bought into what we're doing. They're wanting to take the next step in They're wanting to take the next step in They're wanting to take the next step in their faith. They're wanting to go their faith. They're wanting to go their faith. They're wanting to go deeper in their relationship with God deeper in their relationship with God deeper in their relationship with God and in their church. So that's where I'm and in their church. So that's where I'm and in their church. So that's where I'm storytelling. So part of the issue is storytelling. So part of the issue is storytelling. So part of the issue is making sure that we're setting realistic making sure that we're setting realistic making sure that we're setting realistic expectations based on the numbers. A expectations based on the numbers. A expectations based on the numbers. A high engagement rate on social media high engagement rate on social media high engagement rate on social media does not always correlate to numerical does not always correlate to numerical does not always correlate to numerical growth inhouse. So making sure that growth inhouse. So making sure that growth inhouse. So making sure that we're setting expectation. we're setting expectation. we're setting expectation. >> Love that. Yeah. >> Love that. Yeah. >> Love that. Yeah. >> I'm a I'm a next steps guy. So in and >> I'm a I'm a next steps guy. So in and >> I'm a I'm a next steps guy. So in and not just for comm's people, but for not just for comm's people, but for not just for comm's people, but for everybody in in church and ministry. And everybody in in church and ministry. And everybody in in church and ministry. And I think you know I think it was I I I think you know I think it was I I I think you know I think it was I I think it was actually Brady Sheerer that think it was actually Brady Sheerer that think it was actually Brady Sheerer that was riffing on this like I don't know 10 was riffing on this like I don't know 10 was riffing on this like I don't know 10 years ago. And he was talking about you years ago. And he was talking about you years ago. And he was talking about you know the the metrics that churches tend know the the metrics that churches tend know the the metrics that churches tend to to measure are you know we we t you to to measure are you know we we t you to to measure are you know we we t you know we we measure butts and seats and know we we measure butts and seats and know we we measure butts and seats and bucks in the bucket, right? like what bucks in the bucket, right? like what bucks in the bucket, right? like what how was the offering and what was the how was the offering and what was the how was the offering and what was the weekend attendance? Both of which are weekend attendance? Both of which are weekend attendance? Both of which are lag measures, not lead measures. Now, if lag measures, not lead measures. Now, if lag measures, not lead measures. Now, if I'm going to use this term lead and lag I'm going to use this term lead and lag I'm going to use this term lead and lag measure, this is something we use measure, this is something we use measure, this is something we use internally here at Michel Marketing. If internally here at Michel Marketing. If internally here at Michel Marketing. If you're not familiar with that, would you you're not familiar with that, would you you're not familiar with that, would you get on ChatGpt and ask ChatGpt or Claude get on ChatGpt and ask ChatGpt or Claude get on ChatGpt and ask ChatGpt or Claude or Perplexity, whatever your favorite AI or Perplexity, whatever your favorite AI or Perplexity, whatever your favorite AI tool is to explain to you what lead tool is to explain to you what lead tool is to explain to you what lead measures and lag measures are. The short measures and lag measures are. The short measures and lag measures are. The short version is lead measures are things that version is lead measures are things that version is lead measures are things that you can control. Lag measures are things you can control. Lag measures are things you can control. Lag measures are things that you can't you can't control how that you can't you can't control how that you can't you can't control how many people show up on a Sunday morning.

many people show up on a Sunday morning. many people show up on a Sunday morning. what you can control. So therefore, what you can control. So therefore, what you can control. So therefore, that's a lagged measure. What you can that's a lagged measure. What you can that's a lagged measure. What you can control from a lead measure is how many control from a lead measure is how many control from a lead measure is how many people you invite to church on Sunday people you invite to church on Sunday people you invite to church on Sunday morning and how frequently you're morning and how frequently you're morning and how frequently you're inviting them and by what methods you're inviting them and by what methods you're inviting them and by what methods you're inviting them. And so, you know, I had a inviting them. And so, you know, I had a inviting them. And so, you know, I had a call with a church recently that uh set call with a church recently that uh set call with a church recently that uh set a pretty hefty goal for themselves for a pretty hefty goal for themselves for a pretty hefty goal for themselves for their Christmas Eve service attendance their Christmas Eve service attendance their Christmas Eve service attendance and the they they missed their mark. and the they they missed their mark. and the they they missed their mark. Now, their numbers were up Now, their numbers were up Now, their numbers were up year-over-year from 2024 Christmas Eve year-over-year from 2024 Christmas Eve year-over-year from 2024 Christmas Eve to 2025, but they didn't hit the number to 2025, but they didn't hit the number to 2025, but they didn't hit the number that they had set. And their first that they had set. And their first that they had set. And their first instinct was, "Well, the communications instinct was, "Well, the communications instinct was, "Well, the communications director didn't do a good marketing director didn't do a good marketing director didn't do a good marketing campaign." Like, that was that was campaign." Like, that was that was campaign." Like, that was that was almost the knee-jerk reaction. And so, almost the knee-jerk reaction. And so, almost the knee-jerk reaction. And so, she asked me, she's like, "Can can you she asked me, she's like, "Can can you she asked me, she's like, "Can can you pull some data? Show let we I need I pull some data? Show let we I need I pull some data? Show let we I need I need to show that the ad campaigns that need to show that the ad campaigns that need to show that the ad campaigns that we ran actually worked." I'm like, "The we ran actually worked." I'm like, "The we ran actually worked." I'm like, "The ad campaigns that we ran work really ad campaigns that we ran work really ad campaigns that we ran work really really well." Now, your budget was really well." Now, your budget was really well." Now, your budget was exactly the same for 2025 as it had been exactly the same for 2025 as it had been exactly the same for 2025 as it had been for 2024. So, to expect a different set for 2024. So, to expect a different set for 2024. So, to expect a different set of results based on the same input, I of results based on the same input, I of results based on the same input, I think is a little presumptuous. Like, I think is a little presumptuous. Like, I think is a little presumptuous. Like, I don't know why you'd expect we'll have don't know why you'd expect we'll have don't know why you'd expect we'll have more people when we do the exact same more people when we do the exact same more people when we do the exact same thing. That doesn't make any sense. But thing. That doesn't make any sense. But thing. That doesn't make any sense. But hey, that's a different conversation for hey, that's a different conversation for hey, that's a different conversation for a different day. But when I think about a different day. But when I think about a different day. But when I think about events and activities, if I'm the comm's events and activities, if I'm the comm's events and activities, if I'm the comm's director, I'm going to say, if we're director, I'm going to say, if we're director, I'm going to say, if we're going to announce this or we're going to going to announce this or we're going to going to announce this or we're going to promote this or we're trying to engage promote this or we're trying to engage promote this or we're trying to engage people in this process, what's the one people in this process, what's the one people in this process, what's the one thing that we want everybody to do as thing that we want everybody to do as thing that we want everybody to do as their next step? Because if I know what their next step? Because if I know what their next step? Because if I know what that measurable is and I'm now that measurable is and I'm now that measurable is and I'm now effectively communicating to everyone effectively communicating to everyone effectively communicating to everyone what their next step is, I can now

what their next step is, I can now what their next step is, I can now actually see the ROI on my work based on actually see the ROI on my work based on actually see the ROI on my work based on how many people respond and take that how many people respond and take that how many people respond and take that next step. They they take they they join next step. They they take they they join next step. They they take they they join a group or they attend the um the a group or they attend the um the a group or they attend the um the ministry fair or whatever it is that we ministry fair or whatever it is that we ministry fair or whatever it is that we have that's going on that we're supposed have that's going on that we're supposed have that's going on that we're supposed to be measuring. It's not just the to be measuring. It's not just the to be measuring. It's not just the output or the number of people that show output or the number of people that show output or the number of people that show up. It's the number of people that show up. It's the number of people that show up. It's the number of people that show up and then actually take a next step. up and then actually take a next step. up and then actually take a next step. And I think that if we can figure out And I think that if we can figure out And I think that if we can figure out how to be more next step centric, it how to be more next step centric, it how to be more next step centric, it actually helps us know whether or not actually helps us know whether or not actually helps us know whether or not we're winning. People are moving along a we're winning. People are moving along a we're winning. People are moving along a pathway of disciplehip or whatever it is pathway of disciplehip or whatever it is pathway of disciplehip or whatever it is that you have in your church. that you have in your church. that you have in your church. >> Well, and I also look at I I kind of >> Well, and I also look at I I kind of >> Well, and I also look at I I kind of related to visually related to a scale. related to visually related to a scale. related to visually related to a scale. So, if you got a scale and you're like, So, if you got a scale and you're like, So, if you got a scale and you're like, "Okay, we want to have more baptisms." "Okay, we want to have more baptisms." "Okay, we want to have more baptisms." Well, you're gonna have to put some more Well, you're gonna have to put some more Well, you're gonna have to put some more stuff on that scale to move that. stuff on that scale to move that. stuff on that scale to move that. >> Yeah. Who has the most weight? >> Yeah. Who has the most weight? >> Yeah. Who has the most weight? Does social media have the most weight? Does social media have the most weight? Does social media have the most weight? Do paid ads have the most weight? Does Do paid ads have the most weight? Does Do paid ads have the most weight? Does your newsletter have the most weight? Or your newsletter have the most weight? Or your newsletter have the most weight? Or does your lead pastor have the most does your lead pastor have the most does your lead pastor have the most weight? Okay, so we would probably safe weight? Okay, so we would probably safe weight? Okay, so we would probably safe to say that your lead pastor by getting to say that your lead pastor by getting to say that your lead pastor by getting up and hammering home baptisms or maybe up and hammering home baptisms or maybe up and hammering home baptisms or maybe it's groups or whatever it is, you know, it's groups or whatever it is, you know, it's groups or whatever it is, you know, that's going to carry the most weight.

that's going to carry the most weight. that's going to carry the most weight. Now, will the the lead pastor carry the Now, will the the lead pastor carry the Now, will the the lead pastor carry the most weight in getting attendance for most weight in getting attendance for most weight in getting attendance for Christmas? Christmas? Christmas? Maybe, maybe not. Probably, you know, Maybe, maybe not. Probably, you know, Maybe, maybe not. Probably, you know, he's going to have definitely he's a he's going to have definitely he's a he's going to have definitely he's a he's a he's 100 pound gorilla weight, he's a he's 100 pound gorilla weight, he's a he's 100 pound gorilla weight, right? So, he needs to talk about that, right? So, he needs to talk about that, right? So, he needs to talk about that, but you might want to use some paid ads but you might want to use some paid ads but you might want to use some paid ads because that's going to that's going to because that's going to that's going to because that's going to that's going to he can't go out and reach 10,000 people, he can't go out and reach 10,000 people, he can't go out and reach 10,000 people, but you can through a paid ad campaign. but you can through a paid ad campaign. but you can through a paid ad campaign. So, I think you also have to understand So, I think you also have to understand So, I think you also have to understand the the weight of the weights, if you the the weight of the weights, if you the the weight of the weights, if you will, um when you pull that trigger to will, um when you pull that trigger to will, um when you pull that trigger to say, "Okay, pastor, for the next three say, "Okay, pastor, for the next three say, "Okay, pastor, for the next three weeks, I need you to hammer this home." weeks, I need you to hammer this home." weeks, I need you to hammer this home." because that's an internal thing we're because that's an internal thing we're because that's an internal thing we're trying to move versus trying to reach trying to move versus trying to reach trying to move versus trying to reach more people outside. more people outside. more people outside. >> Yeah. Any parting thoughts there, Zach? >> Yeah. Any parting thoughts there, Zach? >> Yeah. Any parting thoughts there, Zach? >> No, I like the next steps. Yeah, >> No, I like the next steps. Yeah, >> No, I like the next steps. Yeah, >> I like the next steps. >> I like the next steps. >> I like the next steps. >> Set expectations. All of this is commun >> Set expectations. All of this is commun >> Set expectations. All of this is commun as communication directors, as communication directors, as communication directors, >> your job, communicate. >> your job, communicate. >> your job, communicate. >> Maybe that's our deficiency is our pain >> Maybe that's our deficiency is our pain >> Maybe that's our deficiency is our pain points are in us not communicating. points are in us not communicating. points are in us not communicating. >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh well, uh let's call >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh well, uh let's call >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh well, uh let's call this one done. I'm going to wrap this this one done. I'm going to wrap this this one done. I'm going to wrap this up. Thank you guys for hanging out with up. Thank you guys for hanging out with up. Thank you guys for hanging out with me today and I hope our audience has me today and I hope our audience has me today and I hope our audience has found this to be helpful. Um, you know, found this to be helpful. Um, you know, found this to be helpful. Um, you know, one of the things that we do uh at one of the things that we do uh at one of the things that we do uh at missional marketing and church missional marketing and church missional marketing and church communications group is we provide uh a communications group is we provide uh a communications group is we provide uh a lot of free resources through uh through lot of free resources through uh through lot of free resources through uh through this podcast, through blog posts on our this podcast, through blog posts on our this podcast, through blog posts on our articles on our website. Um there's a a articles on our website. Um there's a a articles on our website. Um there's a a Facebook group you can join called the Facebook group you can join called the Facebook group you can join called the church communications group where church communications group where church communications group where there's all kinds of helpful stuff there's all kinds of helpful stuff there's all kinds of helpful stuff there. Jason mentioned our app Kexa.

there. Jason mentioned our app Kexa. there. Jason mentioned our app Kexa. We'll link to the Kexa app. We haven't We'll link to the Kexa app. We haven't We'll link to the Kexa app. We haven't really been promoting that a whole lot really been promoting that a whole lot really been promoting that a whole lot publicly, but uh there is some a growing publicly, but uh there is some a growing publicly, but uh there is some a growing audience on the Kexa app which is audience on the Kexa app which is audience on the Kexa app which is specifically designed for for church specifically designed for for church specifically designed for for church communications uh peoples. a comm communications uh peoples. a comm communications uh peoples. a comm growing community there and more growing community there and more growing community there and more resources that we're going to be loading resources that we're going to be loading resources that we're going to be loading there so that uh you can be better there so that uh you can be better there so that uh you can be better equipped uh to do your role. Uh we equipped uh to do your role. Uh we equipped uh to do your role. Uh we produce this podcast because we want to produce this podcast because we want to produce this podcast because we want to help churches grow by leveraging digital help churches grow by leveraging digital help churches grow by leveraging digital marketing and effective communications. marketing and effective communications. marketing and effective communications. And we just want to be an advocate for And we just want to be an advocate for And we just want to be an advocate for you, those of you who are in the you, those of you who are in the you, those of you who are in the trenches doing the work, ministry work trenches doing the work, ministry work trenches doing the work, ministry work week in week out. So we appreciate you week in week out. So we appreciate you week in week out. So we appreciate you hanging out with us and making it all hanging out with us and making it all hanging out with us and making it all the way to the end of this episode. Uh the way to the end of this episode. Uh the way to the end of this episode. Uh if you haven't yet subscribed wherever if you haven't yet subscribed wherever if you haven't yet subscribed wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, you listen to your favorite podcast, you listen to your favorite podcast, make sure that you do that so that you make sure that you do that so that you make sure that you do that so that you don't miss any future episodes. And if don't miss any future episodes. And if don't miss any future episodes. And if you're watching on our YouTube channel, you're watching on our YouTube channel, you're watching on our YouTube channel, um, make sure that you give us a like, um, make sure that you give us a like, um, make sure that you give us a like, leave a comment. Love to engage with you leave a comment. Love to engage with you leave a comment. Love to engage with you there. Let us know if there's anything there. Let us know if there's anything there. Let us know if there's anything more that we can do for you. On behalf more that we can do for you. On behalf more that we can do for you. On behalf of Jason and Zach, I'm Bart. And thanks of Jason and Zach, I'm Bart. And thanks of Jason and Zach, I'm Bart. And thanks again for tuning in to the Missional again for tuning in to the Missional again for tuning in to the Missional Marketing Podcast.