Stepping Up to Lead When It's Tough to Lead - Interview with Dr. Emanuel Cleaver III

today i had the privilege of speaking today i had the privilege of speaking with dr emmanuel cleaver with dr emmanuel cleaver with dr emmanuel cleaver now dr cleaver is the senior pastor at now dr cleaver is the senior pastor at now dr cleaver is the senior pastor at st james united methodist church in st james united methodist church in st james united methodist church in kansas city kansas city kansas city he's also a community leader author and he's also a community leader author and he's also a community leader author and engages and helps many pastors engages and helps many pastors engages and helps many pastors we took some time to dive into how their we took some time to dive into how their we took some time to dive into how their church is responding to the effects of church is responding to the effects of church is responding to the effects of covet and covet and covet and how that is affecting local families and how that is affecting local families and how that is affecting local families and how their church is making a difference how their church is making a difference how their church is making a difference we also dove into the racial issues and we also dove into the racial issues and we also dove into the racial issues and how he how he how he and the church are responding and what and the church are responding and what and the church are responding and what the future looks like the future looks like the future looks like for their church i'm really excited for for their church i'm really excited for for their church i'm really excited for you to learn you to learn you to learn from dr cleaver well manuel thanks for from dr cleaver well manuel thanks for from dr cleaver well manuel thanks for joining us today glad to have you joining us today glad to have you joining us today glad to have you on the podcast glad to be here thanks on the podcast glad to be here thanks on the podcast glad to be here thanks for the invitation for the invitation for the invitation yeah i'm really excited to talk with you yeah i'm really excited to talk with you yeah i'm really excited to talk with you about your church about your church about your church and uh what's been going on with the and uh what's been going on with the and uh what's been going on with the church since church since church since kind of covet broke and how you guys kind of covet broke and how you guys kind of covet broke and how you guys have responded and so have responded and so have responded and so uh looking forward to learning um uh looking forward to learning um uh looking forward to learning um you know if you kind of look at what you know if you kind of look at what you know if you kind of look at what things you know back in march things you know back in march things you know back in march you know february march april we had to you know february march april we had to you know february march april we had to just change and shift and do everything just change and shift and do everything just change and shift and do everything online and online and online and were you guys prepared for that or was were you guys prepared for that or was were you guys prepared for that or was you know was it you know was it you know was it one of those things were just shifting one of those things were just shifting one of those things were just shifting online was a challenge or what happened online was a challenge or what happened online was a challenge or what happened there there there well well thankfully we had been well well thankfully we had been well well thankfully we had been streaming online for about five years streaming online for about five years streaming online for about five years maybe a little longer than that okay um maybe a little longer than that okay um maybe a little longer than that okay um so yeah so yeah so yeah we've been streaming um so it wasn't we've been streaming um so it wasn't we've been streaming um so it wasn't that big of an adjustment except for that big of an adjustment except for that big of an adjustment except for those those those uh who did not have internet and who

uh who did not have internet and who uh who did not have internet and who were not used to were not used to were not used to uh worshiping online so for some it was uh worshiping online so for some it was uh worshiping online so for some it was an adjustment an adjustment an adjustment but we were able to to keep having but we were able to to keep having but we were able to to keep having worship without any worship without any worship without any any stops good so so any stops good so so any stops good so so so now we're we're in september now so now we're we're in september now so now we're we're in september now almost creeping into october almost creeping into october almost creeping into october uh how's your congregation doing have uh how's your congregation doing have uh how's your congregation doing have they they they have are they itching to get back and have are they itching to get back and have are they itching to get back and are you back and what's that look like are you back and what's that look like are you back and what's that look like so we we elected to um so we we elected to um so we we elected to um not meet in person until next year not meet in person until next year not meet in person until next year so um i think there are some who want to so um i think there are some who want to so um i think there are some who want to get back but understand get back but understand get back but understand um as the cases haven't really slowed um as the cases haven't really slowed um as the cases haven't really slowed down here down here down here in you know in the county um in you know in the county um in you know in the county um in fact our governor just tested in fact our governor just tested in fact our governor just tested positive in missouri positive in missouri positive in missouri governor and his wife just tested governor and his wife just tested governor and his wife just tested positive for coven positive for coven positive for coven um so they understand um but i i do um so they understand um but i i do um so they understand um but i i do think people are longing to get back think people are longing to get back think people are longing to get back together so we've been doing every first together so we've been doing every first together so we've been doing every first sunday draw our parking lot communion sunday draw our parking lot communion sunday draw our parking lot communion where people come to the parking lot and where people come to the parking lot and where people come to the parking lot and we take all the precautions and we take all the precautions and we take all the precautions and and have communion and um and people and have communion and um and people and have communion and um and people have been showing up which shows have been showing up which shows have been showing up which shows i mean people are itching to get back i mean people are itching to get back i mean people are itching to get back and fellowship and worship together and fellowship and worship together and fellowship and worship together yeah yeah i i in talking with a lot of yeah yeah i i in talking with a lot of yeah yeah i i in talking with a lot of churches we're seeing churches we're seeing churches we're seeing they're they're trying things they're they're they're trying things they're they're they're trying things they're trying just to get the community back trying just to get the community back trying just to get the community back together because they recognize i mean together because they recognize i mean together because they recognize i mean that's that's that's we're wired to be in community right we're wired to be in community right we're wired to be in community right that's kind of how we're

that's kind of how we're that's kind of how we're how god made us and and and some how god made us and and and some how god made us and and and some churches are going churches are going churches are going we're having struggle getting them back we're having struggle getting them back we're having struggle getting them back because they're they're we're doing such because they're they're we're doing such because they're they're we're doing such a good job of creating a good job of creating a good job of creating a very comfortable sit at home in your a very comfortable sit at home in your a very comfortable sit at home in your pjs and just watch church pjs and just watch church pjs and just watch church but it'll be interesting when it comes but it'll be interesting when it comes but it'll be interesting when it comes to the new year you know uh how you how to the new year you know uh how you how to the new year you know uh how you how you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna get everybody to come back but uh i bet get everybody to come back but uh i bet get everybody to come back but uh i bet you do have those people that are you do have those people that are you do have those people that are really missing it yeah i i do think it really missing it yeah i i do think it really missing it yeah i i do think it would be a challenge would be a challenge would be a challenge for some because they are accustomed to for some because they are accustomed to for some because they are accustomed to watching uh joining worship in the bed watching uh joining worship in the bed watching uh joining worship in the bed in the pajamas in the pajamas in the pajamas you know my wife is even uh worshiping you know my wife is even uh worshiping you know my wife is even uh worshiping she's on the she's on the she's on the um treadmill uh and so it's just um treadmill uh and so it's just um treadmill uh and so it's just uh it's become a different sort of thing uh it's become a different sort of thing uh it's become a different sort of thing to get to to get to to get to it may be a challenge to break people it may be a challenge to break people it may be a challenge to break people out of that that happen out of that that happen out of that that happen yeah yeah for our family uh yeah yeah for our family uh yeah yeah for our family uh we're now gonna start going back to we're now gonna start going back to we're now gonna start going back to church because we can church because we can church because we can but we've we've taken the opportunity but we've we've taken the opportunity but we've we've taken the opportunity because we have two boys two teenage because we have two boys two teenage because we have two boys two teenage boys so we've boys so we've boys so we've taken the opportunity to to watch and taken the opportunity to to watch and taken the opportunity to to watch and then talk then talk then talk you know let's just kind of spend let's you know let's just kind of spend let's you know let's just kind of spend let's know let's not run into our know let's not run into our know let's not run into our bedrooms or go different routes let's bedrooms or go different routes let's bedrooms or go different routes let's stay together and just huddle as a stay together and just huddle as a stay together and just huddle as a family and family and family and talk about what we learned and be talk about what we learned and be talk about what we learned and be challenged by it so i think that's challenged by it so i think that's challenged by it so i think that's probably hopefully that's happening with probably hopefully that's happening with probably hopefully that's happening with with families as well with families as well with families as well yes yeah so we're starting we started yes yeah so we're starting we started yes yeah so we're starting we started off like that off like that off like that we sort of got lost track and so this we sort of got lost track and so this we sort of got lost track and so this sunday we're coming back we'll sunday we're coming back we'll sunday we're coming back we'll worship on uh at nine o'clock and then

worship on uh at nine o'clock and then worship on uh at nine o'clock and then uh people can break to their growth uh people can break to their growth uh people can break to their growth groups we have growth groups and groups we have growth groups and groups we have growth groups and and uh sunday school classes after and uh sunday school classes after and uh sunday school classes after worship worship worship uh on zoom so um and so people will uh on zoom so um and so people will uh on zoom so um and so people will you know family members go to their you know family members go to their you know family members go to their respective classes after that respective classes after that respective classes after that yeah that's that's great yeah i think yeah that's that's great yeah i think yeah that's that's great yeah i think you have to as a leader you have to as a leader you have to as a leader you kind of have to fig you figure out you kind of have to fig you figure out you kind of have to fig you figure out how you navigate this uncharted how you navigate this uncharted how you navigate this uncharted turret like it's been done before so i'm turret like it's been done before so i'm turret like it's been done before so i'm sure it's i'm sure it's a challenge for sure it's i'm sure it's a challenge for sure it's i'm sure it's a challenge for you to keep the flock you to keep the flock you to keep the flock somewhat focused yeah yeah somewhat focused yeah yeah somewhat focused yeah yeah so um what else have you guys done in so um what else have you guys done in so um what else have you guys done in terms of uh terms of uh terms of uh helping the community i know you're helping the community i know you're helping the community i know you're you're you're you're you know stitched to the community you you know stitched to the community you you know stitched to the community you guys are a big support to the community guys are a big support to the community guys are a big support to the community but what what's some stuff that you guys but what what's some stuff that you guys but what what's some stuff that you guys have been doing that other churches have been doing that other churches have been doing that other churches could learn from could learn from could learn from well i mean right now we have 50 kids in well i mean right now we have 50 kids in well i mean right now we have 50 kids in our building our building our building our purcell campus um our purcell campus um our purcell campus um because uh the schools are not meeting because uh the schools are not meeting because uh the schools are not meeting in person in person in person and these kids um don't have internet and these kids um don't have internet and these kids um don't have internet either don't have internet access either don't have internet access either don't have internet access at home and and or their parents can't at home and and or their parents can't at home and and or their parents can't stay home with them stay home with them stay home with them so they're they're elementary school so they're they're elementary school so they're they're elementary school kids and so kids and so kids and so uh we're able to spread them out in uh we're able to spread them out in uh we're able to spread them out in various classrooms various classrooms various classrooms to social distance and uh to have to social distance and uh to have to social distance and uh to have internet access internet access internet access to have uh adult supervision as they are to have uh adult supervision as they are to have uh adult supervision as they are doing classes online doing classes online doing classes online wow yeah that that's i think that's wow yeah that that's i think that's wow yeah that that's i think that's at least where i am that was a big issue

at least where i am that was a big issue at least where i am that was a big issue um yeah um yeah um yeah kids just it's they would struggle kids just it's they would struggle kids just it's they would struggle especially the younger kids my wife's a especially the younger kids my wife's a especially the younger kids my wife's a elementary teacher so i hear it elementary teacher so i hear it elementary teacher so i hear it firsthand firsthand firsthand yeah what a great we're also still doing yeah what a great we're also still doing yeah what a great we're also still doing our food pantry both campuses uh our food pantry both campuses uh our food pantry both campuses uh at the paseo campus the larger one we at the paseo campus the larger one we at the paseo campus the larger one we have a food pantry every single week have a food pantry every single week have a food pantry every single week south campus we're doing it every month south campus we're doing it every month south campus we're doing it every month we've had several covet testing um we've had several covet testing um we've had several covet testing um stations here uh throughout the time at stations here uh throughout the time at stations here uh throughout the time at both campuses both campuses both campuses and um voter registration we're doing and um voter registration we're doing and um voter registration we're doing that this that this that this sunday in our parking lot so we're we've sunday in our parking lot so we're we've sunday in our parking lot so we're we've utilized our parking lots a lot in the utilized our parking lots a lot in the utilized our parking lots a lot in the last last last few months yeah that's smart that's few months yeah that's smart that's few months yeah that's smart that's that's fantastic that's fantastic that's fantastic um anything you can do like the church um anything you can do like the church um anything you can do like the church just stepping up and i heard a quote just stepping up and i heard a quote just stepping up and i heard a quote when the world hit pause when this all when the world hit pause when this all when the world hit pause when this all broke the church hit broke the church hit broke the church hit go you know and uh sounds like that's go you know and uh sounds like that's go you know and uh sounds like that's exactly what you guys exactly what you guys exactly what you guys not that you haven't been doing that but not that you haven't been doing that but not that you haven't been doing that but just probably more intentional and just probably more intentional and just probably more intentional and probably bigger scale like bringing kids probably bigger scale like bringing kids probably bigger scale like bringing kids into the into the into the in the church that's pretty cool in the church that's pretty cool in the church that's pretty cool yeah well so uh yeah well so uh yeah well so uh when it so we're in a time right now when it so we're in a time right now when it so we're in a time right now where where where it seems like our country's just is just it seems like our country's just is just it seems like our country's just is just being being being uh turned upside down all the racial uh turned upside down all the racial uh turned upside down all the racial issues issues issues the election going on all the coveted the election going on all the coveted the election going on all the coveted things with things with things with the illness plus then the economic

the illness plus then the economic the illness plus then the economic downfall from that people losing their downfall from that people losing their downfall from that people losing their job and all that kind of stuff job and all that kind of stuff job and all that kind of stuff as a leader um how how are you as a leader um how how are you as a leader um how how are you navigating that and leading your flock navigating that and leading your flock navigating that and leading your flock and in your congregation and in your congregation and in your congregation uh and and what what can we learn uh and and what what can we learn uh and and what what can we learn uh in the the big c church from from uh in the the big c church from from uh in the the big c church from from things that you guys are doing and from things that you guys are doing and from things that you guys are doing and from your leadership your leadership your leadership you know that's uh that's what's been you know that's uh that's what's been you know that's uh that's what's been making this period making this period making this period so hectic and uh keeping me busy so hectic and uh keeping me busy so hectic and uh keeping me busy with all of the things going on um with all of the things going on um with all of the things going on um we are one of the one thing uh things we are one of the one thing uh things we are one of the one thing uh things that we're doing that we're doing that we're doing because there has been a history of because there has been a history of because there has been a history of tension between minority communities and tension between minority communities and tension between minority communities and law enforcement law enforcement law enforcement it's nothing new it dates back decades it's nothing new it dates back decades it's nothing new it dates back decades many centuries many centuries many centuries um we are a part of an um we are a part of an um we are a part of an initiative here in kansas city where initiative here in kansas city where initiative here in kansas city where faith communities are partnering with faith communities are partnering with faith communities are partnering with the kansas city police department the kansas city police department the kansas city police department uh one to really help reduce crime uh one to really help reduce crime uh one to really help reduce crime but also uh to build some bridges and i but also uh to build some bridges and i but also uh to build some bridges and i don't say don't say don't say uh you know to rebuild because i i'm not uh you know to rebuild because i i'm not uh you know to rebuild because i i'm not sure they were ever there sure they were ever there sure they were ever there um but to build some bridges um but to build some bridges um but to build some bridges um so we we've started that and that's um so we we've started that and that's um so we we've started that and that's been about uh a month ago um been about uh a month ago um been about uh a month ago um we have been involved in some uh we have been involved in some uh we have been involved in some uh protests and rallies in fact you know protests and rallies in fact you know protests and rallies in fact you know last night last night last night uh i canceled bible study um because

uh i canceled bible study um because uh i canceled bible study um because some of the other faith leaders some of the other faith leaders some of the other faith leaders and i thought it would be good to go and i thought it would be good to go and i thought it would be good to go down down down uh where the protests were happening and uh where the protests were happening and uh where the protests were happening and sort of stand sort of stand sort of stand between uh police and protesters to make between uh police and protesters to make between uh police and protesters to make sure things sure things sure things remain peaceful so i canceled bible remain peaceful so i canceled bible remain peaceful so i canceled bible study and we had several members study and we had several members study and we had several members show up for that and and we we did that show up for that and and we we did that show up for that and and we we did that last night but we also did it last night but we also did it last night but we also did it um several weeks ago um um several weeks ago um um several weeks ago um and i discovered uh well it was it was and i discovered uh well it was it was and i discovered uh well it was it was shared that shared that shared that when the faith leaders went down um when the faith leaders went down um when the faith leaders went down um when protests were happening a month or when protests were happening a month or when protests were happening a month or so ago after george floyd so ago after george floyd so ago after george floyd um the pastor stood between police and um the pastor stood between police and um the pastor stood between police and protesters protesters protesters that was the most peaceful night in that was the most peaceful night in that was the most peaceful night in kansas city kansas city kansas city really and every night after that was really and every night after that was really and every night after that was peaceful peaceful peaceful um so it just spoke volumes as to you um so it just spoke volumes as to you um so it just spoke volumes as to you know the influence that the church still know the influence that the church still know the influence that the church still had i didn't think that had i didn't think that had i didn't think that a lot of these young folk would even a lot of these young folk would even a lot of these young folk would even listen to a bunch of clergy listen to a bunch of clergy listen to a bunch of clergy but to my surprise that there was still but to my surprise that there was still but to my surprise that there was still a level of respect a level of respect a level of respect and um and they followed and um and they followed and um and they followed and so uh just just getting involved and so uh just just getting involved and so uh just just getting involved with some of those things with some of those things with some of those things um uh also you know not just um uh also you know not just um uh also you know not just working with the police department but working with the police department but working with the police department but also also also calling for some changes here in kansas calling for some changes here in kansas calling for some changes here in kansas city with the way city with the way city with the way policing happens kansas city is the only policing happens kansas city is the only policing happens kansas city is the only major city in the country major city in the country major city in the country that doesn't have local control of its

that doesn't have local control of its that doesn't have local control of its police department police department police department the police department in kansas city is the police department in kansas city is the police department in kansas city is controlled by the state controlled by the state controlled by the state the only city only major city in the the only city only major city in the the only city only major city in the country country country like that and it dates back decades when like that and it dates back decades when like that and it dates back decades when there was a lot of corruption there was a lot of corruption there was a lot of corruption uh politically in kansas city tom uh politically in kansas city tom uh politically in kansas city tom pendergast i don't know if you're pendergast i don't know if you're pendergast i don't know if you're familiar with that familiar with that familiar with that name um and so one of the things that uh name um and so one of the things that uh name um and so one of the things that uh we have been working on is getting local we have been working on is getting local we have been working on is getting local control but also an independent control but also an independent control but also an independent policing uh police review board to policing uh police review board to policing uh police review board to handle handle handle complaints and you know from my complaints and you know from my complaints and you know from my perspective perspective perspective it protects police but it also it protects police but it also it protects police but it also protects the community uh on both sides protects the community uh on both sides protects the community uh on both sides so it's it's so it's it's so it's it's it's just been a lot of work and and the it's just been a lot of work and and the it's just been a lot of work and and the church has been uh church has been uh church has been uh very supportive in those efforts yeah very supportive in those efforts yeah very supportive in those efforts yeah well well well you know of all the people who should be you know of all the people who should be you know of all the people who should be doing that doing that doing that it's it's somebody like you a it's it's somebody like you a it's it's somebody like you a god-fearing christ follower god-fearing christ follower god-fearing christ follower leader um who has a voice and leader um who has a voice and leader um who has a voice and i i want to say thank you for i i want to say thank you for i i want to say thank you for that work you're doing um because you're that work you're doing um because you're that work you're doing um because you're an influencer and you can make things an influencer and you can make things an influencer and you can make things happen i think that's happen i think that's happen i think that's for if we're not doing things then we're for if we're not doing things then we're for if we're not doing things then we're a part of the problem instead of a part a part of the problem instead of a part a part of the problem instead of a part of the solution of the solution of the solution right so so uh what would you right so so uh what would you right so so uh what would you so what would you say to your your so what would you say to your your so what would you say to your your white uh pastor leaders as well how do white uh pastor leaders as well how do white uh pastor leaders as well how do you you you start to affect change inside of your

start to affect change inside of your start to affect change inside of your own own own congregation and because i talked to a congregation and because i talked to a congregation and because i talked to a lot of churches and you know lot of churches and you know lot of churches and you know we look at their church and in we look at their church and in we look at their church and in no doubt it's it's all white with us no doubt it's it's all white with us no doubt it's it's all white with us with a little bit of ethnic diversity with a little bit of ethnic diversity with a little bit of ethnic diversity but a little bit but a little bit but a little bit but then you look at the staff page and but then you look at the staff page and but then you look at the staff page and you can get a pretty clear picture you can get a pretty clear picture you can get a pretty clear picture so what is a church how does a church so what is a church how does a church so what is a church how does a church move forward in that move forward in that move forward in that you know if to truly be what i think you know if to truly be what i think you know if to truly be what i think heaven's gonna be like heaven's gonna be like heaven's gonna be like which is gonna be like that we're gonna which is gonna be like that we're gonna which is gonna be like that we're gonna you're gonna see you're gonna see you're gonna see all kinds of color which is gonna be all kinds of color which is gonna be all kinds of color which is gonna be beautiful beautiful beautiful but what does a church need to do um or but what does a church need to do um or but what does a church need to do um or where do they start where do they start where do they start i think one having conversations um i think one having conversations um i think one having conversations um you know we've actually developed a you know we've actually developed a you know we've actually developed a partnership partnership partnership uh with uh the largest united methodist uh with uh the largest united methodist uh with uh the largest united methodist church in the country which is in church in the country which is in church in the country which is in leawood kansas leawood kansas leawood kansas church of the resurrection um and we church of the resurrection um and we church of the resurrection um and we developed developed developed a group called the allies for racial a group called the allies for racial a group called the allies for racial justice justice justice where there's six members from church of where there's six members from church of where there's six members from church of the resurrection six members from saint the resurrection six members from saint the resurrection six members from saint james james james and uh they are working uh and they've and uh they are working uh and they've and uh they are working uh and they've been doing a lot of work over the last been doing a lot of work over the last been doing a lot of work over the last few years few years few years one to bring our congregations together one to bring our congregations together one to bring our congregations together where you know we have been worshiping where you know we have been worshiping where you know we have been worshiping uh with them they worship with us i uh with them they worship with us i uh with them they worship with us i actually just preached over at church of actually just preached over at church of actually just preached over at church of the resurrection the resurrection the resurrection uh maybe a month ago adam hamilton the uh maybe a month ago adam hamilton the uh maybe a month ago adam hamilton the pastor theirs preached here pastor theirs preached here pastor theirs preached here uh really just to have conversations and uh really just to have conversations and uh really just to have conversations and get to get to get to to know one another and you know the way to know one another and you know the way to know one another and you know the way it all began it was after i think uh

it all began it was after i think uh it all began it was after i think uh philando castilla philando castilla philando castilla and um adam hamilton and i sat down and and um adam hamilton and i sat down and and um adam hamilton and i sat down and had a conversation about our experiences had a conversation about our experiences had a conversation about our experiences with race with race with race we did that in front of the congregation we did that in front of the congregation we did that in front of the congregation and and and uh the way we did it is no saint james uh the way we did it is no saint james uh the way we did it is no saint james person could sit with saint james first person could sit with saint james first person could sit with saint james first you have to think sit with someone from you have to think sit with someone from you have to think sit with someone from resurrection resurrection resurrection and we did that intentionally as and we did that intentionally as and we did that intentionally as everyone was coming in yeah everyone was coming in yeah everyone was coming in yeah so adam and i would have a conversation so adam and i would have a conversation so adam and i would have a conversation and then we would invite them and then we would invite them and then we would invite them to have a conversation and they would to have a conversation and they would to have a conversation and they would come back and we'd go back and forth so come back and we'd go back and forth so come back and we'd go back and forth so first they would hear their pastors first they would hear their pastors first they would hear their pastors talk about uncomfortable experiences talk about uncomfortable experiences talk about uncomfortable experiences around race around race around race and then we invited them to have the and then we invited them to have the and then we invited them to have the same and so from that uh the partnership same and so from that uh the partnership same and so from that uh the partnership has grown so i would encourage churches has grown so i would encourage churches has grown so i would encourage churches really to start there really to start there really to start there um and really and really develop um and really and really develop um and really and really develop partnerships our partnerships our partnerships our fellowship with congregations that are fellowship with congregations that are fellowship with congregations that are not not not like uh their own yeah like uh their own yeah like uh their own yeah and uh i i think you'll see some and uh i i think you'll see some and uh i i think you'll see some some uh some change some magnificent some uh some change some magnificent some uh some change some magnificent differences uh starting there i mean differences uh starting there i mean differences uh starting there i mean that's just the starting point that's just the starting point that's just the starting point now if we're trying to to build uh now if we're trying to to build uh now if we're trying to to build uh diverse congregations which you know to diverse congregations which you know to diverse congregations which you know to be honest saint james is the same we're be honest saint james is the same we're be honest saint james is the same we're predominantly predominantly predominantly black with a few uh black with a few uh black with a few uh non-black white latino but it's you know non-black white latino but it's you know non-black white latino but it's you know it's it's i wouldn't it's not diverse it's it's i wouldn't it's not diverse it's it's i wouldn't it's not diverse right right right right right right um but i think uh you know

um but i think uh you know um but i think uh you know one we have to be intentional so one we have to be intentional so one we have to be intentional so i think staffing plays a key role i think staffing plays a key role i think staffing plays a key role if the staff is not diverse i don't know if the staff is not diverse i don't know if the staff is not diverse i don't know how you would expect the congregation how you would expect the congregation how you would expect the congregation right to be diverse and right to be diverse and right to be diverse and even looking at language and even looking at language and even looking at language and illustrations that we use illustrations that we use illustrations that we use in our sermons and and material we use in our sermons and and material we use in our sermons and and material we use for for for sunday schools our growth groups um we sunday schools our growth groups um we sunday schools our growth groups um we have to be intentional not all of it have to be intentional not all of it have to be intentional not all of it will will will translate to every culture uh it's hard translate to every culture uh it's hard translate to every culture uh it's hard work work work but no one said kingdom work was going but no one said kingdom work was going but no one said kingdom work was going to be easy to be easy to be easy no not at all and you're not going to no not at all and you're not going to no not at all and you're not going to accidentally get there accidentally get there accidentally get there right right right you're not going to right right right you're not going to right right right you're not going to trip oh here we are no trip oh here we are no trip oh here we are no oh look at we're we're diverse yeah yeah oh look at we're we're diverse yeah yeah oh look at we're we're diverse yeah yeah that worked that way that worked that way that worked that way and and i even speak into not only a and and i even speak into not only a and and i even speak into not only a church's website which is church's website which is church's website which is really evident you can kind of look at a really evident you can kind of look at a really evident you can kind of look at a website and go okay you just get an idea website and go okay you just get an idea website and go okay you just get an idea would i fit in there and so uh and would i fit in there and so uh and would i fit in there and so uh and and i i take it a step further you look and i i take it a step further you look and i i take it a step further you look at like their facebook page or their at like their facebook page or their at like their facebook page or their google my business google my business google my business profile which there's all kinds of profile which there's all kinds of profile which there's all kinds of pictures and that gives you a clear pictures and that gives you a clear pictures and that gives you a clear indication of indication of indication of what that church is about some churches what that church is about some churches what that church is about some churches don't think about that don't think about that don't think about that and if but if you want to be if you're and if but if you want to be if you're and if but if you want to be if you're if your goal is to be a diverse if your goal is to be a diverse if your goal is to be a diverse community you got to start community you got to start community you got to start acting like that and being intentional acting like that and being intentional acting like that and being intentional about that and then about that and then about that and then painting that picture so people of painting that picture so people of painting that picture so people of any kind of color will feel comfortable any kind of color will feel comfortable any kind of color will feel comfortable going i want to go there

going i want to go there going i want to go there right right you know and and they're right right you know and and they're right right you know and and they're they're obviously accepted and they're obviously accepted and they're obviously accepted and welcomed and and uh that's advanced for welcomed and and uh that's advanced for welcomed and and uh that's advanced for at least from our perspective at least from our perspective at least from our perspective that's a good starting point but i like that's a good starting point but i like that's a good starting point but i like i really love your i really love your i really love your uh first we we just got to develop uh first we we just got to develop uh first we we just got to develop relationship and have a conversation relationship and have a conversation relationship and have a conversation start talking absolutely start talking absolutely start talking absolutely really valuable so so where do you think really valuable so so where do you think really valuable so so where do you think we go from here we go from here we go from here i mean it uh i i meant churches are like i mean it uh i i meant churches are like i mean it uh i i meant churches are like oh they were so looking forward to 2020 oh they were so looking forward to 2020 oh they were so looking forward to 2020 and then and then and then you know all the stuff that hit it's you know all the stuff that hit it's you know all the stuff that hit it's like oh we can't wait for 2021. like oh we can't wait for 2021. like oh we can't wait for 2021. um and when you think about where you um and when you think about where you um and when you think about where you guys are headed as a church guys are headed as a church guys are headed as a church and with this relationship that you have and with this relationship that you have and with this relationship that you have uh uh uh what what what what do you hope for when what what what what do you hope for when what what what what do you hope for when it comes to like it comes to like it comes to like the next year or two or three or five the next year or two or three or five the next year or two or three or five well i think one uh and we did have a well i think one uh and we did have a well i think one uh and we did have a lot of plans some big plans in 2020 lot of plans some big plans in 2020 lot of plans some big plans in 2020 um but um i think one um but um i think one um but um i think one churches what we're looking at is do we churches what we're looking at is do we churches what we're looking at is do we need to restructure need to restructure need to restructure our entire staff the way we we're our entire staff the way we we're our entire staff the way we we're staffing right now staffing right now staffing right now because i think even when this because i think even when this because i think even when this is all over whatever that looks like is all over whatever that looks like is all over whatever that looks like i i don't know that we'll have a bunch i i don't know that we'll have a bunch i i don't know that we'll have a bunch of of of people rushing back to sit you know people rushing back to sit you know people rushing back to sit you know hundreds in a sanctuary together anytime hundreds in a sanctuary together anytime hundreds in a sanctuary together anytime soon soon soon um so you know i know a lot of churches

um so you know i know a lot of churches um so you know i know a lot of churches have already done this you know have already done this you know have already done this you know some call it um a digital pastor or some call it um a digital pastor or some call it um a digital pastor or online pastor online pastor online pastor um someone that focuses on an online um someone that focuses on an online um someone that focuses on an online faith community faith community faith community i i mean that's something we're i i mean that's something we're i i mean that's something we're exploring because i don't think online exploring because i don't think online exploring because i don't think online ministry ministry ministry is is going to slow down anytime soon is is going to slow down anytime soon is is going to slow down anytime soon and i don't um you know even before and i don't um you know even before and i don't um you know even before colbit colbit colbit but i i think covet just accelerated but i i think covet just accelerated but i i think covet just accelerated all of it and so um really looking at all of it and so um really looking at all of it and so um really looking at you know how do we structure our staff you know how do we structure our staff you know how do we structure our staff to make sure that we're addressing to make sure that we're addressing to make sure that we're addressing um the folk who are online because this um the folk who are online because this um the folk who are online because this this um even before covet but especially this um even before covet but especially this um even before covet but especially now we have people worshiping with us now we have people worshiping with us now we have people worshiping with us all over the country all over the country all over the country um and um um and um um and um so what do we do how do we stay so what do we do how do we stay so what do we do how do we stay connected connected connected with them how do we develop an online with them how do we develop an online with them how do we develop an online church community and i know there are church community and i know there are church community and i know there are some churches that have some churches that have some churches that have done a great job you know the first done a great job you know the first done a great job you know the first comes to mind is uh elevation comes to mind is uh elevation comes to mind is uh elevation in north carolina i know they've done in north carolina i know they've done in north carolina i know they've done that but that but that but i think a lot of churches will have to i think a lot of churches will have to i think a lot of churches will have to to really explore that so that that's to really explore that so that that's to really explore that so that that's one of the big things we've already one of the big things we've already one of the big things we've already started talking about started talking about started talking about um how do we staff for the future um how do we staff for the future um how do we staff for the future yeah well and for for you to make that yeah well and for for you to make that yeah well and for for you to make that really difficult choice to cancel really difficult choice to cancel really difficult choice to cancel services all the way through services all the way through services all the way through the year on the flip side of that it's

the year on the flip side of that it's the year on the flip side of that it's giving you an opportunity and some time giving you an opportunity and some time giving you an opportunity and some time to figure out to figure out to figure out what what does ministry look like in what what does ministry look like in what what does ministry look like in 2021 2021 2021 how do we budget for it staff for it how do we budget for it staff for it how do we budget for it staff for it what are those sacred cows that we're what are those sacred cows that we're what are those sacred cows that we're just going to not do anymore and just going to not do anymore and just going to not do anymore and what are the new things we want to do what are the new things we want to do what are the new things we want to do and and you know i and and you know i and and you know i i know andy stanley at north point has i know andy stanley at north point has i know andy stanley at north point has has made that decision and it's has made that decision and it's has made that decision and it's i think it's pretty smart decision i think it's pretty smart decision i think it's pretty smart decision because a lot allows them to really not because a lot allows them to really not because a lot allows them to really not have to worry about when are we coming have to worry about when are we coming have to worry about when are we coming back and back and back and you know just being stressed by that but you know just being stressed by that but you know just being stressed by that but going nope we're done until the new year going nope we're done until the new year going nope we're done until the new year so now let's get to so now let's get to so now let's get to do the hard work of figuring out how we do the hard work of figuring out how we do the hard work of figuring out how we gonna re-launch gonna re-launch gonna re-launch you know in 2021 i'm sure you're in that you know in 2021 i'm sure you're in that you know in 2021 i'm sure you're in that same stage same stage same stage yeah that's what we're planning and yeah that's what we're planning and yeah that's what we're planning and talking about right now talking about right now talking about right now um what is it going to look like yeah um what is it going to look like yeah um what is it going to look like yeah yeah yeah yeah well you know those are some some pretty well you know those are some some pretty well you know those are some some pretty big decisions to make uh big decisions to make uh big decisions to make uh it's a good it's a good uh good thing it's a good it's a good uh good thing it's a good it's a good uh good thing that you're you you're leading that that you're you you're leading that that you're you you're leading that church and they got the right guy in the church and they got the right guy in the church and they got the right guy in the spot spot spot even though it's going to be difficult even though it's going to be difficult even though it's going to be difficult yeah for sure so yeah for sure so yeah for sure so uh where do you get inspiration from uh where do you get inspiration from uh where do you get inspiration from like what like what like what uh share with us some books that you uh share with us some books that you uh share with us some books that you know that you've been reading know that you've been reading know that you've been reading or blogs that you kind of you know or blogs that you kind of you know or blogs that you kind of you know tune into our podcast where do you get tune into our podcast where do you get tune into our podcast where do you get your inspiration other than your inspiration other than your inspiration other than the bible where do you get your the bible where do you get your the bible where do you get your inspiration from as you as you lead inspiration from as you as you lead inspiration from as you as you lead um you know i listened to a lot of uh um you know i listened to a lot of uh um you know i listened to a lot of uh hip-hop music from the 90s uh i like hip-hop music from the 90s uh i like hip-hop music from the 90s uh i like you know some of the current stuff but you know some of the current stuff but you know some of the current stuff but i'm i'm my heart is in the 90s i'm i'm my heart is in the 90s i'm i'm my heart is in the 90s yeah um i uh you know i

yeah um i uh you know i yeah um i uh you know i i read a lot of uh articles uh i read a lot of uh articles uh i read a lot of uh articles uh christianity today christianity today christianity today ministry matters um a lot of stuff that ministry matters um a lot of stuff that ministry matters um a lot of stuff that tom rehner puts out tom rehner puts out tom rehner puts out um just trying to you know um just trying to you know um just trying to you know read and see what a lot of congregations read and see what a lot of congregations read and see what a lot of congregations are doing i i spend a lot of time are doing i i spend a lot of time are doing i i spend a lot of time uh combing through other congregations uh combing through other congregations uh combing through other congregations websites websites websites uh just to see what they're doing uh just to see what they're doing uh just to see what they're doing facebook pages facebook pages facebook pages um i you know i'm of the philosophy if um i you know i'm of the philosophy if um i you know i'm of the philosophy if if you don't have to reinvent the will if you don't have to reinvent the will if you don't have to reinvent the will then don't and uh you know i can always then don't and uh you know i can always then don't and uh you know i can always learn from learn from learn from from other congregations um you know i from other congregations um you know i from other congregations um you know i read read read uh you know the first book when i was uh you know the first book when i was uh you know the first book when i was going into ministry um going into ministry um going into ministry um the first book i read that my father the first book i read that my father the first book i read that my father gave me gave me gave me was uh james cohn black liberation was uh james cohn black liberation was uh james cohn black liberation theology theology theology and uh you know that was the first one and uh you know that was the first one and uh you know that was the first one and after that i and after that i and after that i pretty much read all of all of his books pretty much read all of all of his books pretty much read all of all of his books um um um i like to read nt wright uh new i like to read nt wright uh new i like to read nt wright uh new testament scholar testament scholar testament scholar um walter progeman um walter progeman um walter progeman um yeah i'm always uh looking at you um yeah i'm always uh looking at you um yeah i'm always uh looking at you know what i try to do when i'm when i'm know what i try to do when i'm when i'm know what i try to do when i'm when i'm reading reading reading i try to read a scholarly you know i try to read a scholarly you know i try to read a scholarly you know academic book academic book academic book and then a practical book like church and then a practical book like church and then a practical book like church leadership or church growth book um leadership or church growth book um leadership or church growth book um to try to you know keep it balanced and

to try to you know keep it balanced and to try to you know keep it balanced and uh you know i you know i'm inspired uh uh you know i you know i'm inspired uh uh you know i you know i'm inspired uh by a lot of a lot of that um but the by a lot of a lot of that um but the by a lot of a lot of that um but the biggest thing i'm i'm a part of a biggest thing i'm i'm a part of a biggest thing i'm i'm a part of a clergy group um we call ourselves clergy group um we call ourselves clergy group um we call ourselves shift 180 and we meet every morning shift 180 and we meet every morning shift 180 and we meet every morning via zoom with pastors all over the via zoom with pastors all over the via zoom with pastors all over the country eight of us country eight of us country eight of us uh we meet via zoom every morning at 6 uh we meet via zoom every morning at 6 uh we meet via zoom every morning at 6 30. and uh 30. and uh 30. and uh everyone each each day someone has the everyone each each day someone has the everyone each each day someone has the responsibility of giving the devotion responsibility of giving the devotion responsibility of giving the devotion we talk about it and pray and uh that we talk about it and pray and uh that we talk about it and pray and uh that has been a true blessing i've gotten has been a true blessing i've gotten has been a true blessing i've gotten uh so many sermons out of that so many uh so many sermons out of that so many uh so many sermons out of that so many so many ideas uh just from that group so many ideas uh just from that group so many ideas uh just from that group and so that's and so that's and so that's probably big been one of the biggest probably big been one of the biggest probably big been one of the biggest blessings when it comes to inspiration blessings when it comes to inspiration blessings when it comes to inspiration yeah it's kind of that's your inner yeah it's kind of that's your inner yeah it's kind of that's your inner circle in a sense right circle in a sense right circle in a sense right that you got to get you feed and then that you got to get you feed and then that you got to get you feed and then get fed yes get fed yes get fed yes yeah and then and then the rest of your yeah and then and then the rest of your yeah and then and then the rest of your your staff and your congregation your staff and your congregation your staff and your congregation it trickles down to those guys so it trickles down to those guys so it trickles down to those guys so yeah um yeah i and also i actually do yeah um yeah i and also i actually do yeah um yeah i and also i actually do something called mountaintop time i something called mountaintop time i something called mountaintop time i wrote a book in 2014 wrote a book in 2014 wrote a book in 2014 called pastor on track and um called pastor on track and um called pastor on track and um you know because i i came to the you know because i i came to the you know because i i came to the conclusion conclusion conclusion that what we learned in seminary no one that what we learned in seminary no one that what we learned in seminary no one ever taught ever taught ever taught us how to be pastors there's no class us how to be pastors there's no class us how to be pastors there's no class that says here's what a pastor ought to that says here's what a pastor ought to that says here's what a pastor ought to do do do pastors learn what to do based on what pastors learn what to do based on what pastors learn what to do based on what the previous pastor did and

the previous pastor did and the previous pastor did and did or did not do and that becomes your did or did not do and that becomes your did or did not do and that becomes your job description job description job description and so the book is really about what and so the book is really about what and so the book is really about what pastors do and one of the um pastors do and one of the um pastors do and one of the um our biblical perspective what our our biblical perspective what our our biblical perspective what our pastors are supposed to do pastors are supposed to do pastors are supposed to do and and the last chapter is uh i call and and the last chapter is uh i call and and the last chapter is uh i call mountaintop time mountaintop time mountaintop time where you get away and really hear from where you get away and really hear from where you get away and really hear from god god god vision plan um vision plan um vision plan um and i i do that um and i i do that um and i i do that um like i'm doing it pretty soon for 2021 like i'm doing it pretty soon for 2021 like i'm doing it pretty soon for 2021 and um i think my staff hates when i and um i think my staff hates when i and um i think my staff hates when i come back from that because that means come back from that because that means come back from that because that means uh we have some work to do because i uh we have some work to do because i uh we have some work to do because i come back with a plan so it's not a come back with a plan so it's not a come back with a plan so it's not a vacation it's not a respite vacation it's not a respite vacation it's not a respite uh it is uh simply and i and i spend uh it is uh simply and i and i spend uh it is uh simply and i and i spend time time time about two weeks um every day about two weeks um every day about two weeks um every day at a local seminary the library they at a local seminary the library they at a local seminary the library they have um have um have um a little small cubby where i can go in a little small cubby where i can go in a little small cubby where i can go in pray pray pray read study and i come back with the plan read study and i come back with the plan read study and i come back with the plan for each year it's like your little mini for each year it's like your little mini for each year it's like your little mini sabbatical sabbatical sabbatical right yeah now i do think i need a right yeah now i do think i need a right yeah now i do think i need a longer one but yeah it is longer one but yeah it is longer one but yeah it is it is like that yeah our pastor does as it is like that yeah our pastor does as it is like that yeah our pastor does as well instead of taking well instead of taking well instead of taking like a you know six-month sabbatical like a you know six-month sabbatical like a you know six-month sabbatical every every every eight or ten years he takes a month or eight or ten years he takes a month or eight or ten years he takes a month or so often so often so often every summer and allows others to preach every summer and allows others to preach every summer and allows others to preach but it gives him time but it gives him time but it gives him time to just kind of unplug and get realigned

to just kind of unplug and get realigned to just kind of unplug and get realigned and refocus with god and refocus with god and refocus with god and where the spur spirit is leading him and where the spur spirit is leading him and where the spur spirit is leading him and it sounds like and it sounds like and it sounds like he comes down and says okay guys this is he comes down and says okay guys this is he comes down and says okay guys this is what we're going to do and i think what we're going to do and i think what we're going to do and i think that's that's that's every leader needs that you know and i i every leader needs that you know and i i every leader needs that you know and i i believe so believe so believe so yeah and you can because you especially yeah and you can because you especially yeah and you can because you especially these days these days these days somebody in your position in your somebody in your position in your somebody in your position in your authority and leadership you're being authority and leadership you're being authority and leadership you're being pulled pulled pulled in so many directions that are even in so many directions that are even in so many directions that are even maybe outside the church maybe outside the church maybe outside the church that you really need that intentional that you really need that intentional that you really need that intentional okay guys i need to okay guys i need to okay guys i need to focus here and yeah that's that's uh focus here and yeah that's that's uh focus here and yeah that's that's uh one of the and i i got an example of one of the and i i got an example of one of the and i i got an example of five of the pastors around the country five of the pastors around the country five of the pastors around the country who do that who do that who do that one is a friend of mine matt biaski who one is a friend of mine matt biaski who one is a friend of mine matt biaski who pastors the gathering in st pastors the gathering in st pastors the gathering in st louis and i quoted him in the book and louis and i quoted him in the book and louis and i quoted him in the book and he said the reason he does it is because he said the reason he does it is because he said the reason he does it is because he found himself he found himself he found himself you can get caught up working in the you can get caught up working in the you can get caught up working in the church but church but church but pastors sometimes need to work on the pastors sometimes need to work on the pastors sometimes need to work on the church church church and uh it just made sense you know and uh it just made sense you know and uh it just made sense you know you can get caught up in the day-to-day you can get caught up in the day-to-day you can get caught up in the day-to-day and and and some of the small things not that some of the small things not that some of the small things not that they're not important they're not important they're not important but we can lose focus on the bigger but we can lose focus on the bigger but we can lose focus on the bigger picture yeah picture yeah picture yeah yeah all said that's great advice for yeah all said that's great advice for yeah all said that's great advice for every leader every leader every leader yeah you're you're so far into the yeah you're you're so far into the yeah you're you're so far into the forest you're like there's trees around forest you're like there's trees around forest you're like there's trees around me you know me you know me you know right i can't even see them yeah right i can't even see them yeah right i can't even see them yeah exactly yeah well thank you exactly yeah well thank you exactly yeah well thank you so much i i appreciate your time and so much i i appreciate your time and so much i i appreciate your time and your insight and wisdom your insight and wisdom your insight and wisdom uh a lot to learn and chew on uh as uh a lot to learn and chew on uh as uh a lot to learn and chew on uh as leaders and um

leaders and um leaders and um yeah my prayer for for you guys is as yeah my prayer for for you guys is as yeah my prayer for for you guys is as you guys you guys you guys can see is one of my favorite cities and can see is one of my favorite cities and can see is one of my favorite cities and born there and born there and born there and uh uh love kansas city as you guys are uh uh love kansas city as you guys are uh uh love kansas city as you guys are making a big difference making a big difference making a big difference sounds like you're making a huge sounds like you're making a huge sounds like you're making a huge difference there well just difference there well just difference there well just pray that you guys that god keeps pray that you guys that god keeps pray that you guys that god keeps guiding you and and guiding you and and guiding you and and uh building his church in your church uh building his church in your church uh building his church in your church right and right and right and that's uh that's a diverse church that's that's uh that's a diverse church that's that's uh that's a diverse church that's we're all disciples and following jesus we're all disciples and following jesus we're all disciples and following jesus and that's the and that's the and that's the that's the goal absolutely that is our that's the goal absolutely that is our that's the goal absolutely that is our goal and you know with god's help we'll goal and you know with god's help we'll goal and you know with god's help we'll get there get there get there that's right amen all right well thank that's right amen all right well thank that's right amen all right well thank you so much you so much you so much and uh we'll talk to you soon oh thank and uh we'll talk to you soon oh thank and uh we'll talk to you soon oh thank you all right god bless you all right god bless you all right god bless bye-bye well thank you dr cleaver you're bye-bye well thank you dr cleaver you're bye-bye well thank you dr cleaver you're an inspiration and a model of what an inspiration and a model of what an inspiration and a model of what leadership looks like when it's tough leadership looks like when it's tough leadership looks like when it's tough to lead we all have to do work when it to lead we all have to do work when it to lead we all have to do work when it comes to the racial issues in our comes to the racial issues in our comes to the racial issues in our country and country and country and i believe i firmly believe the church i believe i firmly believe the church i believe i firmly believe the church should be the most prominent voice should be the most prominent voice should be the most prominent voice to speak truth to people all people to speak truth to people all people to speak truth to people all people dr cleaver his idea uh that dr cleaver his idea uh that dr cleaver his idea uh that in order to change conversations need to in order to change conversations need to in order to change conversations need to happen first that is great advice happen first that is great advice happen first that is great advice relationships need to be forged you're relationships need to be forged you're relationships need to be forged you're not gonna not gonna not gonna wander into becoming a multi-ethnic wander into becoming a multi-ethnic wander into becoming a multi-ethnic church church church it's not gonna happen you have to focus it's not gonna happen you have to focus it's not gonna happen you have to focus on being a multi-ethnic church and on being a multi-ethnic church and on being a multi-ethnic church and take the advice of dr cleaver go build take the advice of dr cleaver go build take the advice of dr cleaver go build relationships relationships relationships with others who are not like you just with others who are not like you just with others who are not like you just start there well my prayer my hope is start there well my prayer my hope is start there well my prayer my hope is that that that you lean on god and ask for his wisdom

you lean on god and ask for his wisdom you lean on god and ask for his wisdom as you consider becoming a more as you consider becoming a more as you consider becoming a more multi-ethnic church multi-ethnic church multi-ethnic church thanks for tuning in until next time god thanks for tuning in until next time god thanks for tuning in until next time god bless bless bless [Music]