From Order Taker to Influencer | Phil Cooke

One of the things I always tell people One of the things I always tell people is is is your people skills are more important, your people skills are more important, your people skills are more important, far more important than whatever skills far more important than whatever skills far more important than whatever skills it takes to do your job. I'll tell you, it takes to do your job. I'll tell you, it takes to do your job. I'll tell you, if you can get along with people, if you if you can get along with people, if you if you can get along with people, if you can inspire co-workers, motivate can inspire co-workers, motivate can inspire co-workers, motivate co-workers, you will accelerate your co-workers, you will accelerate your co-workers, you will accelerate your career so, so very much. career so, so very much. career so, so very much. >> This is the Mission of Marketing Podcast >> This is the Mission of Marketing Podcast >> This is the Mission of Marketing Podcast episode number 183. episode number 183. episode number 183. My name is Bart Blair. I'm the brand My name is Bart Blair. I'm the brand My name is Bart Blair. I'm the brand director for Mission of Marketing and director for Mission of Marketing and director for Mission of Marketing and the Church Communications Group and it's the Church Communications Group and it's the Church Communications Group and it's my privilege to welcome you to this my privilege to welcome you to this my privilege to welcome you to this week's episode of the show. My week's episode of the show. My week's episode of the show. My podcasting partner, Jason Hamrock, the podcasting partner, Jason Hamrock, the podcasting partner, Jason Hamrock, the CEO of our our organization, he and I CEO of our our organization, he and I CEO of our our organization, he and I have been producing this podcast since have been producing this podcast since have been producing this podcast since 2020 with the goal of helping churches 2020 with the goal of helping churches 2020 with the goal of helping churches grow by leveraging digital marketing and grow by leveraging digital marketing and grow by leveraging digital marketing and effective communications. If you happen effective communications. If you happen effective communications. If you happen to be new to our show, please be sure to to be new to our show, please be sure to to be new to our show, please be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your subscribe wherever you listen to your subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. 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So, because of an inconsistent frequency of podcast drops, inconsistent frequency of podcast drops, inconsistent frequency of podcast drops, the benefit to you of subscribing is the benefit to you of subscribing is the benefit to you of subscribing is that you don't have to go looking for that you don't have to go looking for that you don't have to go looking for them. They'll just be automatically them. They'll just be automatically them. They'll just be automatically delivered right to your mobile device delivered right to your mobile device delivered right to your mobile device and then you won't miss any of the great and then you won't miss any of the great and then you won't miss any of the great content that we're creating. And I say content that we're creating. And I say content that we're creating. And I say great content not because Jason and I great content not because Jason and I great content not because Jason and I are so great, but because like in are so great, but because like in are so great, but because like in today's episode, we get to share with today's episode, we get to share with today's episode, we get to share with you some incredible insights from a very you some incredible insights from a very you some incredible insights from a very incredible leader. Today's episode, incredible leader. Today's episode, incredible leader. Today's episode, Jason and I had an opportunity to Jason and I had an opportunity to Jason and I had an opportunity to interview Mr. Phil Cooke. Should I say interview Mr. Phil Cooke. Should I say interview Mr. Phil Cooke. Should I say Dr. Phil Cooke? He has a PhD. Phil Cooke Dr. Phil Cooke? He has a PhD. Phil Cooke Dr. Phil Cooke? He has a PhD. Phil Cooke of the Cooke Media Group. Phil is an of the Cooke Media Group. Phil is an of the Cooke Media Group. Phil is an internationally renowned

internationally renowned internationally renowned film producer, director, film producer, director, film producer, director, overall brilliant guy and loves the overall brilliant guy and loves the overall brilliant guy and loves the local church, does a lot of coaching and local church, does a lot of coaching and local church, does a lot of coaching and consulting in the space of of media, consulting in the space of of media, consulting in the space of of media, marketing, communications with churches. marketing, communications with churches. marketing, communications with churches. He is no stranger to our podcast. In He is no stranger to our podcast. In He is no stranger to our podcast. In fact, this is the fourth time we've had fact, this is the fourth time we've had fact, this is the fourth time we've had him on the show, which I think I think him on the show, which I think I think him on the show, which I think I think brings him into a tie with Chris Martin brings him into a tie with Chris Martin brings him into a tie with Chris Martin as being the most frequent guest on our as being the most frequent guest on our as being the most frequent guest on our show. I mean, I don't know if that's show. I mean, I don't know if that's show. I mean, I don't know if that's something you really want to put on your something you really want to put on your something you really want to put on your resume or brag about, uh, but we are so resume or brag about, uh, but we are so resume or brag about, uh, but we are so grateful that Phil came and hung out grateful that Phil came and hung out grateful that Phil came and hung out with us and did this recording. But more with us and did this recording. But more with us and did this recording. But more importantly, more excited are we that importantly, more excited are we that importantly, more excited are we that Phil is actually going to be one of the Phil is actually going to be one of the Phil is actually going to be one of the keynote speakers at the Church keynote speakers at the Church keynote speakers at the Church Communications Conference that we're Communications Conference that we're Communications Conference that we're hosting in Kansas City in September of hosting in Kansas City in September of hosting in Kansas City in September of 2026. That's right. We host a 2026. That's right. We host a 2026. That's right. We host a conference. We've been doing this for conference. We've been doing this for conference. We've been doing this for several years now. Uh, church several years now. Uh, church several years now. Uh, church communications professionals, communications professionals, communications professionals, volunteers, leaders, pastors come to volunteers, leaders, pastors come to volunteers, leaders, pastors come to Kansas City, join us there for a couple Kansas City, join us there for a couple Kansas City, join us there for a couple of days of really intentional learning. of days of really intentional learning. of days of really intentional learning. You're going to hear a little bit more You're going to hear a little bit more You're going to hear a little bit more about it, uh, in the podcast, uh, about it, uh, in the podcast, uh, about it, uh, in the podcast, uh, episode that we're recording here. But episode that we're recording here. But episode that we're recording here. But it's a fantastic time. So go to it's a fantastic time. So go to it's a fantastic time. So go to churchcommunications.com to get all the churchcommunications.com to get all the churchcommunications.com to get all the details. Uh, at the time that we are details. Uh, at the time that we are details. Uh, at the time that we are releasing this, there is still an early releasing this, there is still an early releasing this, there is still an early bird special. So if you're listening to bird special. So if you're listening to bird special. So if you're listening to this, um, as it's being released, this, um, as it's being released, this, um, as it's being released, go and, uh, save yourself 50 bucks on go and, uh, save yourself 50 bucks on go and, uh, save yourself 50 bucks on the registration, uh, so that, uh, you the registration, uh, so that, uh, you the registration, uh, so that, uh, you can get the best deal possible and plan can get the best deal possible and plan can get the best deal possible and plan to bring a team. It's just such a great to bring a team. It's just such a great to bring a team. It's just such a great time of equipping, learning, and time of equipping, learning, and time of equipping, learning, and networking with other people in the networking with other people in the networking with other people in the church communications and marketing church communications and marketing church communications and marketing space. Well, again, I I'm really excited space. Well, again, I I'm really excited space. Well, again, I I'm really excited about the conversation. Uh, we really do about the conversation. Uh, we really do about the conversation. Uh, we really do a deep dive on how people who sit in

a deep dive on how people who sit in a deep dive on how people who sit in sort of the the middle seat in sort of the the middle seat in sort of the the middle seat in leadership in a church, oftentimes the leadership in a church, oftentimes the leadership in a church, oftentimes the communications director or media communications director or media communications director or media director, uh, can better leverage their director, uh, can better leverage their director, uh, can better leverage their influence, their leadership, and their influence, their leadership, and their influence, their leadership, and their voice with their senior leadership team voice with their senior leadership team voice with their senior leadership team to make a greater impact in their local to make a greater impact in their local to make a greater impact in their local church ministry. Uh, I thought it was a church ministry. Uh, I thought it was a church ministry. Uh, I thought it was a fascinating conversation. I hope that fascinating conversation. I hope that fascinating conversation. I hope that you love it as much as I did. Without you love it as much as I did. Without you love it as much as I did. Without any further delay, here's Jason Hamrock any further delay, here's Jason Hamrock any further delay, here's Jason Hamrock and our interview with Phil Cook. and our interview with Phil Cook. and our interview with Phil Cook. >> Well, hey Phil, welcome back to the >> Well, hey Phil, welcome back to the >> Well, hey Phil, welcome back to the show, my friend. How you doing? show, my friend. How you doing? show, my friend. How you doing? >> I'm doing great. I'm thrilled to be >> I'm doing great. I'm thrilled to be >> I'm doing great. I'm thrilled to be back. It's always fun with you guys. back. It's always fun with you guys. back. It's always fun with you guys. And, uh, yeah, I couldn't, uh, I could And, uh, yeah, I couldn't, uh, I could And, uh, yeah, I couldn't, uh, I could not be better. So hopefully this will be not be better. So hopefully this will be not be better. So hopefully this will be a good episode. a good episode. a good episode. >> Oh, it always is. It always is. And our >> Oh, it always is. It always is. And our >> Oh, it always is. It always is. And our our whenever you're on the show, Phil, our whenever you're on the show, Phil, our whenever you're on the show, Phil, we get into good conversations and this we get into good conversations and this we get into good conversations and this one's going to be a great one today for one's going to be a great one today for one's going to be a great one today for all of our all of our listeners. all of our all of our listeners. all of our all of our listeners. And if this is a if you haven't heard And if this is a if you haven't heard And if this is a if you haven't heard Phil before, Phil's been on our show Phil before, Phil's been on our show Phil before, Phil's been on our show multiple times. Phil, just kind of give multiple times. Phil, just kind of give multiple times. Phil, just kind of give our audience just a little snapshot into our audience just a little snapshot into our audience just a little snapshot into who you are and and a little bit of your who you are and and a little bit of your who you are and and a little bit of your background. background. background. >> Well, we have a we started my wife >> Well, we have a we started my wife >> Well, we have a we started my wife Kathleen and I started a company in back Kathleen and I started a company in back Kathleen and I started a company in back way back in 1991 called Cooke Media way back in 1991 called Cooke Media way back in 1991 called Cooke Media Group and we are producers primarily.

Group and we are producers primarily. Group and we are producers primarily. We've done everything under the sun from We've done everything under the sun from We've done everything under the sun from television programs, specials, Super television programs, specials, Super television programs, specials, Super Bowl commercials, all kind of things. Bowl commercials, all kind of things. Bowl commercials, all kind of things. But our focus is really helping churches But our focus is really helping churches But our focus is really helping churches and ministries use the media more and ministries use the media more and ministries use the media more effectively. We jokingly tell people we effectively. We jokingly tell people we effectively. We jokingly tell people we help Christians not suck at the media. help Christians not suck at the media. help Christians not suck at the media. And if you've seen much Christian TV or And if you've seen much Christian TV or And if you've seen much Christian TV or movies, you know, we still have a long movies, you know, we still have a long movies, you know, we still have a long way to go. It's a pretty full-time job. way to go. It's a pretty full-time job. way to go. It's a pretty full-time job. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And but I think things have come a long way but I think things have come a long way but I think things have come a long way in my career and I'm thrilled with that in my career and I'm thrilled with that in my career and I'm thrilled with that and so we just we love being out there and so we just we love being out there and so we just we love being out there working with pastors, ministry leaders, working with pastors, ministry leaders, working with pastors, ministry leaders, helping tell their story. helping tell their story. helping tell their story. >> Uh you're so and you're so good at it. >> Uh you're so and you're so good at it. >> Uh you're so and you're so good at it. You you've written books, you you do You you've written books, you you do You you've written books, you you do podcasts, you travel all around the podcasts, you travel all around the podcasts, you travel all around the world. world. world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you are a an inspiration and we love >> And you are a an inspiration and we love >> And you are a an inspiration and we love having your insight into into this show having your insight into into this show having your insight into into this show because our audience are mostly com because our audience are mostly com because our audience are mostly com directors in in local churches that are directors in in local churches that are directors in in local churches that are trying to improve and trying to get trying to improve and trying to get trying to improve and trying to get better and so that kind of leads me into better and so that kind of leads me into better and so that kind of leads me into our topic today. I'm really excited our topic today. I'm really excited our topic today. I'm really excited about this topic and this is really about this topic and this is really about this topic and this is really relevant. I literally had a call with a relevant. I literally had a call with a relevant. I literally had a call with a church just a couple days ago with a a church just a couple days ago with a a church just a couple days ago with a a brand new com director and she said, brand new com director and she said, brand new com director and she said, Jason, in your years of experience, Jason, in your years of experience, Jason, in your years of experience, what's the top piece of advice you could what's the top piece of advice you could what's the top piece of advice you could give me?

give me? give me? And it came to my mind right away. I And it came to my mind right away. I And it came to my mind right away. I said, make sure you're on the same page said, make sure you're on the same page said, make sure you're on the same page with your lead pastor. Make sure you with your lead pastor. Make sure you with your lead pastor. Make sure you understand what your lead pastor is understand what your lead pastor is understand what your lead pastor is expecting of you. Make sure you're in expecting of you. Make sure you're in expecting of you. Make sure you're in sync with that. She's like, I never sync with that. She's like, I never sync with that. She's like, I never thought of that. thought of that. thought of that. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And so you know, you you came up with >> And so you know, you you came up with >> And so you know, you you came up with this idea of of today's of today's show this idea of of today's of today's show this idea of of today's of today's show about the order taker problem. Explain about the order taker problem. Explain about the order taker problem. Explain what you you mean by that. what you you mean by that. what you you mean by that. >> Well, first of all, to comment on your >> Well, first of all, to comment on your >> Well, first of all, to comment on your comment, that's a that was the best comment, that's a that was the best comment, that's a that was the best thing you could have possibly told her. thing you could have possibly told her. thing you could have possibly told her. I think the biggest question I get from I think the biggest question I get from I think the biggest question I get from communications and media directors at communications and media directors at communications and media directors at churches is, "You know, Phil, the pastor churches is, "You know, Phil, the pastor churches is, "You know, Phil, the pastor doesn't spend time with me. He won't doesn't spend time with me. He won't doesn't spend time with me. He won't ever invite me to lunch. I don't get ever invite me to lunch. I don't get ever invite me to lunch. I don't get invited to senior meetings. invited to senior meetings. invited to senior meetings. The he's not interested in my ideas." The he's not interested in my ideas." The he's not interested in my ideas." And I I tell them, "Look, it's not the And I I tell them, "Look, it's not the And I I tell them, "Look, it's not the pastor's job to get on your wavelength. pastor's job to get on your wavelength. pastor's job to get on your wavelength. It's your job to get on their It's your job to get on their It's your job to get on their wavelength." wavelength." wavelength." >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Pastors don't think in terms of VU >> Pastors don't think in terms of VU >> Pastors don't think in terms of VU meters and video levels and exposure and meters and video levels and exposure and meters and video levels and exposure and stuff like that. They think in terms of stuff like that. They think in terms of stuff like that. They think in terms of evangelism and harvest and church growth evangelism and harvest and church growth evangelism and harvest and church growth and stuff like that. And so, I and stuff like that. And so, I and stuff like that. And so, I discovered the minute you start talking discovered the minute you start talking discovered the minute you start talking like that, suddenly they perk up and like that, suddenly they perk up and like that, suddenly they perk up and they're interested in hearing because they're interested in hearing because they're interested in hearing because they know ultimately that you're the key they know ultimately that you're the key they know ultimately that you're the key to to to really getting their message beyond the really getting their message beyond the really getting their message beyond the four four walls of the church. So, they four four walls of the church. So, they four four walls of the church. So, they want a a communication or media director want a a communication or media director want a a communication or media director who is really interested in their who is really interested in their who is really interested in their calling and their vision and their calling and their vision and their calling and their vision and their purpose and what the church is trying to purpose and what the church is trying to purpose and what the church is trying to do. So, I I you could not give her given do. So, I I you could not give her given do. So, I I you could not give her given her better advice. It was it was her better advice. It was it was her better advice. It was it was actually quite brilliant. Um the order actually quite brilliant. Um the order actually quite brilliant. Um the order taker thing, if you want to transition taker thing, if you want to transition taker thing, if you want to transition to that, to that, to that, >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> is so many communication directors and >> is so many communication directors and >> is so many communication directors and media directors at churches are simply media directors at churches are simply media directors at churches are simply order takers. You know, we need a order takers. You know, we need a order takers. You know, we need a brochure by Tuesday. We need a short brochure by Tuesday. We need a short brochure by Tuesday. We need a short video to show in the service in in 2 video to show in the service in in 2 video to show in the service in in 2 weeks. Um different ministries will come weeks. Um different ministries will come weeks. Um different ministries will come in and often communication or media in and often communication or media in and often communication or media people are just overwhelmed. people are just overwhelmed. people are just overwhelmed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they're simply, you know, you want >> And they're simply, you know, you want >> And they're simply, you know, you want fries with that? They're just taking fries with that? They're just taking fries with that? They're just taking orders basically. And I want orders basically. And I want orders basically. And I want communication directors and and media communication directors and and media communication directors and and media directors to think in terms of being an directors to think in terms of being an directors to think in terms of being an influence on the leadership team at the influence on the leadership team at the influence on the leadership team at the church. I want their ideas. In fact, if church. I want their ideas. In fact, if church. I want their ideas. In fact, if you in my experience, if you look at the you in my experience, if you look at the you in my experience, if you look at the most effective churches out there, many most effective churches out there, many most effective churches out there, many in most cases the communication director in most cases the communication director in most cases the communication director is probably the second most respected is probably the second most respected is probably the second most respected voice in the church. So, they're the voice in the church. So, they're the voice in the church. So, they're the ones the pastor goes to for ideas about ones the pastor goes to for ideas about ones the pastor goes to for ideas about this week's series. How should it long this week's series. How should it long this week's series. How should it long How long should it be? Um what should we How long should it be? Um what should we How long should it be? Um what should we cover? What graphics can we use? Things cover? What graphics can we use? Things cover? What graphics can we use? Things like that. So, I just think if we think like that. So, I just think if we think like that. So, I just think if we think about it, we can elevate the role of about it, we can elevate the role of about it, we can elevate the role of communication director, media director, communication director, media director, communication director, media director, and really make them a much more and really make them a much more and really make them a much more influential part of what a church is influential part of what a church is influential part of what a church is doing.

doing. doing. >> Uh I I I so resonate with that. And and >> Uh I I I so resonate with that. And and >> Uh I I I so resonate with that. And and I'll I'll also give this advice. It I'll I'll also give this advice. It I'll I'll also give this advice. It doesn't matter if you're in a cubicle doesn't matter if you're in a cubicle doesn't matter if you're in a cubicle or you're in an office, you have or you're in an office, you have or you're in an office, you have influence, and you need to tap into influence, and you need to tap into influence, and you need to tap into that. And you need to pray to God, that. And you need to pray to God, that. And you need to pray to God, "Lord, give me the words and the wisdom "Lord, give me the words and the wisdom "Lord, give me the words and the wisdom and the influence I need to have to lead and the influence I need to have to lead and the influence I need to have to lead up." up." up." >> That's really good. >> That's really good. >> That's really good. >> You're saying that. >> You're saying that. >> You're saying that. >> Uh oh, I love it. I I Early in my >> Uh oh, I love it. I I Early in my >> Uh oh, I love it. I I Early in my career, probably the first job in career, probably the first job in career, probably the first job in television I ever had was with a very television I ever had was with a very television I ever had was with a very large media ministry, probably the large media ministry, probably the large media ministry, probably the largest in the world at the time. And um largest in the world at the time. And um largest in the world at the time. And um because I was the director, I was a because I was the director, I was a because I was the director, I was a creative guy directing television creative guy directing television creative guy directing television programs, I they never considered me to programs, I they never considered me to programs, I they never considered me to be the head of the department cuz I was be the head of the department cuz I was be the head of the department cuz I was a creative guy. They always brought in a a creative guy. They always brought in a a creative guy. They always brought in a business type person or a ministry business type person or a ministry business type person or a ministry person, even though they didn't know person, even though they didn't know person, even though they didn't know anything about television or media. So, anything about television or media. So, anything about television or media. So, we got to a point where I noticed, you we got to a point where I noticed, you we got to a point where I noticed, you know, the guy that was there the longest know, the guy that was there the longest know, the guy that was there the longest was just didn't know anything about was just didn't know anything about was just didn't know anything about this, and he was, you know, a borderline this, and he was, you know, a borderline this, and he was, you know, a borderline idiot, to be perfectly honest. And so, I idiot, to be perfectly honest. And so, I idiot, to be perfectly honest. And so, I noticed the team started coming to me noticed the team started coming to me noticed the team started coming to me for advice and questions, and they for advice and questions, and they for advice and questions, and they started looking at me. And I learned started looking at me. And I learned started looking at me. And I learned early on that you can lead from the early on that you can lead from the early on that you can lead from the middle without alienating the people middle without alienating the people middle without alienating the people above you. You know, if you do it above you. You know, if you do it above you. You know, if you do it delicately, if you do it sensitively, uh delicately, if you do it sensitively, uh delicately, if you do it sensitively, uh sometimes behind the scenes, but leading sometimes behind the scenes, but leading sometimes behind the scenes, but leading from the middle's absolutely possi- from the middle's absolutely possi- from the middle's absolutely possi- possible. So, don't feel like you have possible. So, don't feel like you have possible. So, don't feel like you have to have a title, don't feel like you to have a title, don't feel like you to have a title, don't feel like you have to have a business card or a big have to have a business card or a big have to have a business card or a big office. You can lead wherever you are in office. You can lead wherever you are in office. You can lead wherever you are in the food chain, and it can make a the food chain, and it can make a the food chain, and it can make a dramatic difference for your church, dramatic difference for your church, dramatic difference for your church, your ministry, whatever organization your ministry, whatever organization your ministry, whatever organization you're in.

you're in. you're in. >> What do you think are some of the Like >> What do you think are some of the Like >> What do you think are some of the Like So, let's speak to those people right So, let's speak to those people right So, let's speak to those people right now. What are some really tangible now. What are some really tangible now. What are some really tangible things they can do to be leading from things they can do to be leading from things they can do to be leading from the middle? the middle? the middle? >> Uh cuz that's a great great question. >> Uh cuz that's a great great question. >> Uh cuz that's a great great question. One of them is don't be a jerk. Uh the One of them is don't be a jerk. Uh the One of them is don't be a jerk. Uh the big big thing is, you know, in meetings, big big thing is, you know, in meetings, big big thing is, you know, in meetings, you don't want to embarrass the boss, you don't want to embarrass the boss, you don't want to embarrass the boss, you don't want to say things that are you don't want to say things that are you don't want to say things that are going to make him or her look stupid. Uh going to make him or her look stupid. Uh going to make him or her look stupid. Uh you want to be very very careful of you want to be very very careful of you want to be very very careful of that. And number two, you want to make that. And number two, you want to make that. And number two, you want to make the boss look great. I mean, the fact the boss look great. I mean, the fact the boss look great. I mean, the fact is, they will give you more leash, is, they will give you more leash, is, they will give you more leash, they'll give you more rope and more they'll give you more rope and more they'll give you more rope and more responsibility if you're making them responsibility if you're making them responsibility if you're making them look fantastic. So, you know, you we're look fantastic. So, you know, you we're look fantastic. So, you know, you we're not talking about lying, we're not not talking about lying, we're not not talking about lying, we're not talking about, you know, fictionalizing talking about, you know, fictionalizing talking about, you know, fictionalizing things, but at the same time, you want things, but at the same time, you want things, but at the same time, you want to support them. You know, your first to support them. You know, your first to support them. You know, your first your first reaction is, "Oh my gosh, your first reaction is, "Oh my gosh, your first reaction is, "Oh my gosh, this guy's an idiot. How do I bring him this guy's an idiot. How do I bring him this guy's an idiot. How do I bring him down? How do I get rid of him?" But the down? How do I get rid of him?" But the down? How do I get rid of him?" But the truth is, if you can really learn to truth is, if you can really learn to truth is, if you can really learn to help him look good, people are going to help him look good, people are going to help him look good, people are going to start noticing where those ideas are start noticing where those ideas are start noticing where those ideas are coming from. You know, we had a Now, I coming from. You know, we had a Now, I coming from. You know, we had a Now, I worked at a ministry full one of my worked at a ministry full one of my worked at a ministry full one of my first full-time jobs, I worked at a first full-time jobs, I worked at a first full-time jobs, I worked at a media ministry where the the evangelist media ministry where the the evangelist media ministry where the the evangelist that was leading it hated my ideas. We'd that was leading it hated my ideas. We'd that was leading it hated my ideas. We'd go into a production meeting on Monday, go into a production meeting on Monday, go into a production meeting on Monday, he would hate my ideas. But I would sit he would hate my ideas. But I would sit he would hate my ideas. But I would sit there quietly, and by Wednesday, he there quietly, and by Wednesday, he there quietly, and by Wednesday, he would regurgitate those same ideas as would regurgitate those same ideas as would regurgitate those same ideas as his.

his. his. And everybody in the room would all look And everybody in the room would all look And everybody in the room would all look at me and kind of snicker, but we got to at me and kind of snicker, but we got to at me and kind of snicker, but we got to the point where, okay, I'm just going to the point where, okay, I'm just going to the point where, okay, I'm just going to feed him these ideas Monday, get used to feed him these ideas Monday, get used to feed him these ideas Monday, get used to the fact that he'll hate them. But then the fact that he'll hate them. But then the fact that he'll hate them. But then by Wednesday, they're going to get by Wednesday, they're going to get by Wednesday, they're going to get they're going to come back as his ideas. they're going to come back as his ideas. they're going to come back as his ideas. And the the important thing was, we got And the the important thing was, we got And the the important thing was, we got to do them. We got to try them, and they to do them. We got to try them, and they to do them. We got to try them, and they worked. So, I think, you know, just worked. So, I think, you know, just worked. So, I think, you know, just being sensitive What one of the things I being sensitive What one of the things I being sensitive What one of the things I always tell I don't mean to preach here, always tell I don't mean to preach here, always tell I don't mean to preach here, but you get you guys get me excited. Um but you get you guys get me excited. Um but you get you guys get me excited. Um one of the things I always tell people one of the things I always tell people one of the things I always tell people is, your people skills are more is, your people skills are more is, your people skills are more important, far more important than important, far more important than important, far more important than whatever skills it takes to do your job. whatever skills it takes to do your job. whatever skills it takes to do your job. I'll tell you, if you can get along with I'll tell you, if you can get along with I'll tell you, if you can get along with people, if you can inspire co-workers, people, if you can inspire co-workers, people, if you can inspire co-workers, motivate co-workers, you will accelerate motivate co-workers, you will accelerate motivate co-workers, you will accelerate your career so so very much. I know your career so so very much. I know your career so so very much. I know people that are not terribly skilled at people that are not terribly skilled at people that are not terribly skilled at what they do, but they're so good what they do, but they're so good what they do, but they're so good working with people, and so good at working with people, and so good at working with people, and so good at inspiring the people around them, inspiring the people around them, inspiring the people around them, they're doing amazing things. So, I tell they're doing amazing things. So, I tell they're doing amazing things. So, I tell you, take the time, learn to read a you, take the time, learn to read a you, take the time, learn to read a room, learn to see what people are room, learn to see what people are room, learn to see what people are thinking before they ever say anything. thinking before they ever say anything. thinking before they ever say anything. Um learn to honor and get along and Um learn to honor and get along and Um learn to honor and get along and inspire people, and your career's uh inspire people, and your career's uh inspire people, and your career's uh your career could be unlimited as far as your career could be unlimited as far as your career could be unlimited as far as I'm concerned.

I'm concerned. I'm concerned. >> I'll add to that. I think another little >> I'll add to that. I think another little >> I'll add to that. I think another little right below that would be, make sure you right below that would be, make sure you right below that would be, make sure you ask really good questions. ask really good questions. ask really good questions. Not just kind of dumb questions, but Not just kind of dumb questions, but Not just kind of dumb questions, but thought-provoking thought-provoking thought-provoking questions. And you know, when I questions. And you know, when I questions. And you know, when I that's that's that's I've always learned that over my career I've always learned that over my career I've always learned that over my career is when I'm not talking, but I'm asking is when I'm not talking, but I'm asking is when I'm not talking, but I'm asking questions, I'm actually learning the questions, I'm actually learning the questions, I'm actually learning the most and learning what I need to say most and learning what I need to say most and learning what I need to say because like you said, you want to make because like you said, you want to make because like you said, you want to make them look good. them look good. them look good. >> Yeah, brilliant. >> Yeah, brilliant. >> Yeah, brilliant. >> The only way you do that is if you ask >> The only way you do that is if you ask >> The only way you do that is if you ask questions to get them talking, right? questions to get them talking, right? questions to get them talking, right? >> Well, it's funny that when you study the >> Well, it's funny that when you study the >> Well, it's funny that when you study the life of Jesus, life of Jesus, life of Jesus, he spent most of his time asking he spent most of his time asking he spent most of his time asking questions. questions. questions. Many times he'd ask a question and then Many times he'd ask a question and then Many times he'd ask a question and then just walk away. And you know, sometimes just walk away. And you know, sometimes just walk away. And you know, sometimes behind the scenes the disciples were a behind the scenes the disciples were a behind the scenes the disciples were a little thick and he'd explain to them little thick and he'd explain to them little thick and he'd explain to them what he meant. But that the power of what he meant. But that the power of what he meant. But that the power of that you're you're exactly right. The that you're you're exactly right. The that you're you're exactly right. The power of asking questions is incredible. power of asking questions is incredible. power of asking questions is incredible. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jason, I know that you you've seen this >> Jason, I know that you you've seen this >> Jason, I know that you you've seen this and and and I'm going to get both of you to perhaps I'm going to get both of you to perhaps I'm going to get both of you to perhaps speak to this a little bit is that speak to this a little bit is that speak to this a little bit is that oftentimes the comms director in a oftentimes the comms director in a oftentimes the comms director in a church is someone who never really this church is someone who never really this church is someone who never really this is your story, Jason never intended to is your story, Jason never intended to is your story, Jason never intended to be in ministry, was just part of a be in ministry, was just part of a be in ministry, was just part of a church, loved the church, and the church church, loved the church, and the church church, loved the church, and the church staff and the church grew to a point staff and the church grew to a point staff and the church grew to a point where the leadership team was like, where the leadership team was like, where the leadership team was like, "Hey, we need somebody full-time in this "Hey, we need somebody full-time in this "Hey, we need somebody full-time in this communications role." And so oftentimes communications role." And so oftentimes communications role." And so oftentimes the person who's coming into the the person who's coming into the the person who's coming into the communications role has some background communications role has some background communications role has some background maybe in marketing, maybe in maybe in marketing, maybe in maybe in marketing, maybe in communications, maybe in graphic design, communications, maybe in graphic design, communications, maybe in graphic design, or writing, but they haven't actually or writing, but they haven't actually or writing, but they haven't actually ever been in ministry. And so I think ever been in ministry. And so I think ever been in ministry. And so I think sometimes people who come into this role sometimes people who come into this role sometimes people who come into this role that middle area have a little bit of that middle area have a little bit of that middle area have a little bit of imposter syndrome. You know, it's hard

imposter syndrome. You know, it's hard imposter syndrome. You know, it's hard for them to feel like they can lead up for them to feel like they can lead up for them to feel like they can lead up that way because that way because that way because the pastor has perhaps been their pastor the pastor has perhaps been their pastor the pastor has perhaps been their pastor for multiple years before now becoming for multiple years before now becoming for multiple years before now becoming their boss, right? How would you Jason, their boss, right? How would you Jason, their boss, right? How would you Jason, you've been in that seat and Phil, I'm you've been in that seat and Phil, I'm you've been in that seat and Phil, I'm sure that you've seen it. How do you sure that you've seen it. How do you sure that you've seen it. How do you navigate that shift from the pastor navigate that shift from the pastor navigate that shift from the pastor being your pastor to now the pastor being your pastor to now the pastor being your pastor to now the pastor being your boss and reconfiguring that being your boss and reconfiguring that being your boss and reconfiguring that relationship so that you can have that relationship so that you can have that relationship so that you can have that kind of influence? kind of influence? kind of influence? >> What a great question. It is It is It's >> What a great question. It is It is It's >> What a great question. It is It is It's intimidating. intimidating. intimidating. It really is. And And you know, it It really is. And And you know, it It really is. And And you know, it depends on the leader, right? The the depends on the leader, right? The the depends on the leader, right? The the posture of the leader. I got to serve a posture of the leader. I got to serve a posture of the leader. I got to serve a leader who was phenomenal. And I love leader who was phenomenal. And I love leader who was phenomenal. And I love that man to death, but he was definitely that man to death, but he was definitely that man to death, but he was definitely uh uh uh introvert. And I'm more of an extrovert. introvert. And I'm more of an extrovert. introvert. And I'm more of an extrovert. So, I had to learn how to how to get on So, I had to learn how to how to get on So, I had to learn how to how to get on his language level, if that makes sense. his language level, if that makes sense. his language level, if that makes sense. I wasn't expecting him to get on mine. I wasn't expecting him to get on mine. I wasn't expecting him to get on mine. And I I I had to just I really had to And I I I had to just I really had to And I I I had to just I really had to work at it. It's because I'm I'm a work at it. It's because I'm I'm a work at it. It's because I'm I'm a pleaser. pleaser. pleaser. I want I want to please people and I I want I want to please people and I I want I want to please people and I would certainly he's my boss. And he's would certainly he's my boss. And he's would certainly he's my boss. And he's my pastor, too. So, it's kind of this my pastor, too. So, it's kind of this my pastor, too. So, it's kind of this weird dynamic of how do you make sure weird dynamic of how do you make sure weird dynamic of how do you make sure that you are adjusting yourself to what that you are adjusting yourself to what that you are adjusting yourself to what his or her strengths, whoever that might his or her strengths, whoever that might his or her strengths, whoever that might be for you who's listening.

be for you who's listening. be for you who's listening. And make sure that you're you're tuning And make sure that you're you're tuning And make sure that you're you're tuning in. Those That was a That was something in. Those That was a That was something in. Those That was a That was something that I had to do intentionally, Bart. I that I had to do intentionally, Bart. I that I had to do intentionally, Bart. I didn't just wander into that didn't just wander into that didn't just wander into that relationship. relationship. relationship. >> Um if I can throw in two cents, I mean, >> Um if I can throw in two cents, I mean, >> Um if I can throw in two cents, I mean, you're exactly right. Um you're exactly right. Um you're exactly right. Um uh it's so true. Um I've worked with uh it's so true. Um I've worked with uh it's so true. Um I've worked with communication and media directors who communication and media directors who communication and media directors who had been sales people before. One was a had been sales people before. One was a had been sales people before. One was a teacher. Uh one was a youth director at teacher. Uh one was a youth director at teacher. Uh one was a youth director at their church. their church. their church. They had no background whatsoever. And They had no background whatsoever. And They had no background whatsoever. And it's interesting that in churches, you it's interesting that in churches, you it's interesting that in churches, you need to hire different people at need to hire different people at need to hire different people at different levels. My dad was a pastor different levels. My dad was a pastor different levels. My dad was a pastor and we had about 250 to 300 people in and we had about 250 to 300 people in and we had about 250 to 300 people in our church. And so, really he could our church. And so, really he could our church. And so, really he could pretty much do everything. And what he pretty much do everything. And what he pretty much do everything. And what he couldn't do, print the bulletin, handle couldn't do, print the bulletin, handle couldn't do, print the bulletin, handle the nursery, my mom did as a volunteer. the nursery, my mom did as a volunteer. the nursery, my mom did as a volunteer. But as churches grow, obviously, they But as churches grow, obviously, they But as churches grow, obviously, they need to add more people. And most often, need to add more people. And most often, need to add more people. And most often, they'll add first of my you know, an they'll add first of my you know, an they'll add first of my you know, an audio guy or an audio a woman, whoever, audio guy or an audio a woman, whoever, audio guy or an audio a woman, whoever, an audio person. Um somebody just to an audio person. Um somebody just to an audio person. Um somebody just to handle the mics and then maybe deal with handle the mics and then maybe deal with handle the mics and then maybe deal with sound. And they're mostly techy people. sound. And they're mostly techy people. sound. And they're mostly techy people. And techy people are great. We And techy people are great. We And techy people are great. We absolutely need tech engineer people absolutely need tech engineer people absolutely need tech engineer people because that's that's vitally important because that's that's vitally important because that's that's vitally important as the first stage. But as a church as the first stage. But as a church as the first stage. But as a church grows, we need to start elevating those grows, we need to start elevating those grows, we need to start elevating those positions and start thinking in terms of positions and start thinking in terms of positions and start thinking in terms of an all over communications director.

an all over communications director. an all over communications director. Somebody that supervises social media, Somebody that supervises social media, Somebody that supervises social media, the website, short videos, all of those the website, short videos, all of those the website, short videos, all of those kind of things as well. And um so kind of things as well. And um so kind of things as well. And um so I would say to to communication and I would say to to communication and I would say to to communication and media directors out there, you know, media directors out there, you know, media directors out there, you know, Jason said it's intimidating. He's Jason said it's intimidating. He's Jason said it's intimidating. He's exactly right. And the secret is don't exactly right. And the secret is don't exactly right. And the secret is don't let your insecurity take over. Don't be let your insecurity take over. Don't be let your insecurity take over. Don't be so intimidated that you shut down so intimidated that you shut down so intimidated that you shut down advice. I've I've been I've I've had advice. I've I've been I've I've had advice. I've I've been I've I've had pastors who asked me to come in and look pastors who asked me to come in and look pastors who asked me to come in and look at their team and their communication at their team and their communication at their team and their communication director did everything in his power to director did everything in his power to director did everything in his power to keep me out of there. He didn't want keep me out of there. He didn't want keep me out of there. He didn't want this Phil Cook guy coming in telling him this Phil Cook guy coming in telling him this Phil Cook guy coming in telling him what to do, which is the last thing in what to do, which is the last thing in what to do, which is the last thing in the world I would do, but that was his the world I would do, but that was his the world I would do, but that was his perception and he was so insecure about perception and he was so insecure about perception and he was so insecure about his position that he just fought tooth his position that he just fought tooth his position that he just fought tooth and nail to keep me out of there. So, and nail to keep me out of there. So, and nail to keep me out of there. So, open yourself up. You know what? The open yourself up. You know what? The open yourself up. You know what? The only way you're going to grow is hearing only way you're going to grow is hearing only way you're going to grow is hearing new ideas. And people aren't out to get new ideas. And people aren't out to get new ideas. And people aren't out to get you fired, they're out to help you grow. you fired, they're out to help you grow. you fired, they're out to help you grow. And so, be open to new ideas. Talk to And so, be open to new ideas. Talk to And so, be open to new ideas. Talk to other communication directors at other other communication directors at other other communication directors at other churches. Get into a network. So many churches. Get into a network. So many churches. Get into a network. So many churches have networks or conferences or churches have networks or conferences or churches have networks or conferences or denominational gatherings. Get plugged denominational gatherings. Get plugged denominational gatherings. Get plugged into those where you can meet other into those where you can meet other into those where you can meet other people that do what you do, because people that do what you do, because people that do what you do, because that's the only way you're really going that's the only way you're really going that's the only way you're really going to grow and get to the level where the to grow and get to the level where the to grow and get to the level where the pastor's comfortable having you in those pastor's comfortable having you in those pastor's comfortable having you in those strategic meetings and that's really strategic meetings and that's really strategic meetings and that's really where you want to be.

where you want to be. where you want to be. >> You know, that I mean, that's so good >> You know, that I mean, that's so good >> You know, that I mean, that's so good advice. I think that was the advice. I think that was the advice. I think that was the when I was a com director, which was when I was a com director, which was when I was a com director, which was years and years ago, I had no network. years and years ago, I had no network. years and years ago, I had no network. There were no other com directors. And There were no other com directors. And There were no other com directors. And but today, but today, but today, there's plenty of them, you know, and we there's plenty of them, you know, and we there's plenty of them, you know, and we are we have our communications Facebook are we have our communications Facebook are we have our communications Facebook group and we've got 30 plus thousand group and we've got 30 plus thousand group and we've got 30 plus thousand people, I think 38,000 people. There's a people, I think 38,000 people. There's a people, I think 38,000 people. There's a ton of people that are in the ton of people that are in the ton of people that are in the communication space that you can lean in communication space that you can lean in communication space that you can lean in on. And when we do these road shows that on. And when we do these road shows that on. And when we do these road shows that we go around the country doing, that's we go around the country doing, that's we go around the country doing, that's my my my one of the first things I say my my my one of the first things I say my my my one of the first things I say is get to know the people in the room is get to know the people in the room is get to know the people in the room because there are in churches right because there are in churches right because there are in churches right around this area and they are your peers around this area and they are your peers around this area and they are your peers and you can lean on one another. You're and you can lean on one another. You're and you can lean on one another. You're not competitors. The enemy is Satan. not competitors. The enemy is Satan. not competitors. The enemy is Satan. He's the competitor. He's the competitor. He's the competitor. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Not not local churches that are >> Not not local churches that are >> Not not local churches that are preaching the gospel. So, get to know preaching the gospel. So, get to know preaching the gospel. So, get to know one another, lean on one another, and one another, lean on one another, and one another, lean on one another, and use that to your advantage. Ask those use that to your advantage. Ask those use that to your advantage. Ask those questions like, "How do you lead, you questions like, "How do you lead, you questions like, "How do you lead, you know, you with your lead pastor and your know, you with your lead pastor and your know, you with your lead pastor and your leadership team or your What's that leadership team or your What's that leadership team or your What's that challenge look like with that person challenge look like with that person challenge look like with that person that you're dealing with?" And sometimes that you're dealing with?" And sometimes that you're dealing with?" And sometimes it's a in your team, sometimes it's just it's a in your team, sometimes it's just it's a in your team, sometimes it's just another ministry. But, you've got to you another ministry. But, you've got to you another ministry. But, you've got to you got to take those steps and learn. What got to take those steps and learn. What got to take those steps and learn. What are some other um are some other um are some other um things that they Are there other like things that they Are there other like things that they Are there other like podcasts or books that you would podcasts or books that you would podcasts or books that you would recommend for somebody that recommend for somebody that recommend for somebody that >> know, I should come up with a list and >> know, I should come up with a list and >> know, I should come up with a list and send it to you. I think that um uh send it to you. I think that um uh send it to you. I think that um uh I think you know, one of the things that I think you know, one of the things that I think you know, one of the things that you might consider is I wrote a book you might consider is I wrote a book you might consider is I wrote a book called Maximize Your Influence, How to called Maximize Your Influence, How to called Maximize Your Influence, How to Use Digital Media to expand your reach.

Use Digital Media to expand your reach. Use Digital Media to expand your reach. And and it was written I wrote And the And and it was written I wrote And the And and it was written I wrote And the reason I bring it up is I didn't write reason I bring it up is I didn't write reason I bring it up is I didn't write it for technical guys, engineering guys. it for technical guys, engineering guys. it for technical guys, engineering guys. I wrote it for comms directors, media I wrote it for comms directors, media I wrote it for comms directors, media directors, and pastors. People that directors, and pastors. People that directors, and pastors. People that aren't necessarily familiar with the aren't necessarily familiar with the aren't necessarily familiar with the technical reasons of how our website technical reasons of how our website technical reasons of how our website works or what we should be doing on works or what we should be doing on works or what we should be doing on social media. I did it more about the social media. I did it more about the social media. I did it more about the why, why we're doing social media, why why, why we're doing social media, why why, why we're doing social media, why you're doing short films, um why what you're doing short films, um why what you're doing short films, um why what you need to think about in reaching a you need to think about in reaching a you need to think about in reaching a digital audience today. And there's a digital audience today. And there's a digital audience today. And there's a lot of resources out there like that lot of resources out there like that lot of resources out there like that that I think would be good and people that I think would be good and people that I think would be good and people should look at. You know, it's it's should look at. You know, it's it's should look at. You know, it's it's funny. I did funny. I did funny. I did I did I did get a call from a pastor a I did I did get a call from a pastor a I did I did get a call from a pastor a number of years ago, large church, about number of years ago, large church, about number of years ago, large church, about 5,000-6,000 people, and he said, "Phil, 5,000-6,000 people, and he said, "Phil, 5,000-6,000 people, and he said, "Phil, I hate my media and communications team. I hate my media and communications team. I hate my media and communications team. I hate them. I don't want to be in the I hate them. I don't want to be in the I hate them. I don't want to be in the room with them. I don't like being room with them. I don't like being room with them. I don't like being around them. They drive me nuts." He around them. They drive me nuts." He around them. They drive me nuts." He said, "Could you fix this?" And it took said, "Could you fix this?" And it took said, "Could you fix this?" And it took me a couple of years to do it, but to me a couple of years to do it, but to me a couple of years to do it, but to this day I'm not exactly sure what this day I'm not exactly sure what this day I'm not exactly sure what generated it, but I think the the media generated it, but I think the the media generated it, but I think the the media or the communications team embarrassed or the communications team embarrassed or the communications team embarrassed did something that embarrassed the did something that embarrassed the did something that embarrassed the pastor publicly. And he was so angry pastor publicly. And he was so angry pastor publicly. And he was so angry about it, it just took him a long time about it, it just took him a long time about it, it just took him a long time to get over. But, we moved some people to get over. But, we moved some people to get over. But, we moved some people around, we shifted some things, and now around, we shifted some things, and now around, we shifted some things, and now he loves working with the team. And so, he loves working with the team. And so, he loves working with the team. And so, you know, I just can't overemphasize you know, I just can't overemphasize you know, I just can't overemphasize culture enough. The culture you create culture enough. The culture you create culture enough. The culture you create with communication and media in a church with communication and media in a church with communication and media in a church is absolutely critical and the thing you is absolutely critical and the thing you is absolutely critical and the thing you need the most is the pastor's trust.

need the most is the pastor's trust. need the most is the pastor's trust. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, the more the pastor could trust you >> So, the more the pastor could trust you >> So, the more the pastor could trust you that he knows that when he delivers his that he knows that when he delivers his that he knows that when he delivers his message, you're going to take it and do message, you're going to take it and do message, you're going to take it and do something amazing with it, that is something amazing with it, that is something amazing with it, that is that's really what builds that kind of that's really what builds that kind of that's really what builds that kind of trust and it makes a big difference. trust and it makes a big difference. trust and it makes a big difference. >> Yeah, one of the things I >> Yeah, one of the things I >> Yeah, one of the things I recommend and I did it the other day and recommend and I did it the other day and recommend and I did it the other day and I do this all the time is I'm a big fan I do this all the time is I'm a big fan I do this all the time is I'm a big fan of Patrick Lencioni's book The Six of Patrick Lencioni's book The Six of Patrick Lencioni's book The Six Working Geniuses Working Geniuses Working Geniuses because if you can understand your because if you can understand your because if you can understand your working genius and what your co-workers, working genius and what your co-workers, working genius and what your co-workers, your peers, what their working genius your peers, what their working genius your peers, what their working genius is, you'll start to get on the same is, you'll start to get on the same is, you'll start to get on the same you'll understand what kind of meeting you'll understand what kind of meeting you'll understand what kind of meeting you're having and and nobody will get you're having and and nobody will get you're having and and nobody will get frustrated. So, that's that's really frustrated. So, that's that's really frustrated. So, that's that's really cool thing. cool thing. cool thing. Let's turn the tables though. Let's talk Let's turn the tables though. Let's talk Let's turn the tables though. Let's talk to the lead pastors and executive to the lead pastors and executive to the lead pastors and executive pastors about how to actually know pastors about how to actually know pastors about how to actually know something about your com director. So, something about your com director. So, something about your com director. So, what kind of advice would you say to what kind of advice would you say to what kind of advice would you say to those leaders and how you deal with the those leaders and how you deal with the those leaders and how you deal with the com director? It may be just a brand new com director? It may be just a brand new com director? It may be just a brand new you just hired somebody and he or she is you just hired somebody and he or she is you just hired somebody and he or she is fresh into ministry and you know, how fresh into ministry and you know, how fresh into ministry and you know, how what kind of advice do we give our what kind of advice do we give our what kind of advice do we give our leaders?

leaders? leaders? >> Well, you know, it's interesting. >> Well, you know, it's interesting. >> Well, you know, it's interesting. Pastors spend all their time in seminary Pastors spend all their time in seminary Pastors spend all their time in seminary or Bible school learning how to lead a or Bible school learning how to lead a or Bible school learning how to lead a church, learning how to preach. They church, learning how to preach. They church, learning how to preach. They don't learn anything about don't learn anything about don't learn anything about communication. They don't learn anything communication. They don't learn anything communication. They don't learn anything about media stuff. And so, they're about media stuff. And so, they're about media stuff. And so, they're really blindsided about all this stuff really blindsided about all this stuff really blindsided about all this stuff and so, and so, and so, you often get pastors who are you often get pastors who are you often get pastors who are wonderfully open and I love that or you wonderfully open and I love that or you wonderfully open and I love that or you get pastors who are really close-minded get pastors who are really close-minded get pastors who are really close-minded about it simply because they don't get about it simply because they don't get about it simply because they don't get it, they don't understand it. So, first it, they don't understand it. So, first it, they don't understand it. So, first of all, I would encourage pastors be of all, I would encourage pastors be of all, I would encourage pastors be open to media. You know, that that media open to media. You know, that that media open to media. You know, that that media leader in your on your team is really leader in your on your team is really leader in your on your team is really critical for getting your message beyond critical for getting your message beyond critical for getting your message beyond the four walls of the church. If you the four walls of the church. If you the four walls of the church. If you want to grow your message, want to grow your message, want to grow your message, the key is is developing a communication the key is is developing a communication the key is is developing a communication media director, a media director who can media director, a media director who can media director, a media director who can get that message out there in so many get that message out there in so many get that message out there in so many ways. We live in the a media driven ways. We live in the a media driven ways. We live in the a media driven culture today and today's culture speaks culture today and today's culture speaks culture today and today's culture speaks the language of media, and I I just the language of media, and I I just the language of media, and I I just worry that if we don't learn that worry that if we don't learn that worry that if we don't learn that language, language, language, the gospel's simply going to continue to the gospel's simply going to continue to the gospel's simply going to continue to disappear from the culture. And so, I I disappear from the culture. And so, I I disappear from the culture. And so, I I first of all, I think pastors should first of all, I think pastors should first of all, I think pastors should honor the the role of communication or honor the the role of communication or honor the the role of communication or media director, and and really raise media director, and and really raise media director, and and really raise that up. Put them on your strategic that up. Put them on your strategic that up. Put them on your strategic team. Bring them into meetings, even if team. Bring them into meetings, even if team. Bring them into meetings, even if you're not sure how much they can you're not sure how much they can you're not sure how much they can contribute or not, get them used to contribute or not, get them used to contribute or not, get them used to being dealing with these issues. Ask being dealing with these issues. Ask being dealing with these issues. Ask them questions, spend time with them.

them questions, spend time with them. them questions, spend time with them. And and here's the thing, if you're not And and here's the thing, if you're not And and here's the thing, if you're not comfortable doing that, if you don't comfortable doing that, if you don't comfortable doing that, if you don't like being around your communication like being around your communication like being around your communication director, you've hired the wrong director, you've hired the wrong director, you've hired the wrong communication director. communication director. communication director. >> You have a problem. Yeah. >> You have a problem. Yeah. >> You have a problem. Yeah. >> That's a problem. So, yeah, you want >> That's a problem. So, yeah, you want >> That's a problem. So, yeah, you want somebody that you're close to. You want somebody that you're close to. You want somebody that you're close to. You want somebody that you'll spend a lot of time somebody that you'll spend a lot of time somebody that you'll spend a lot of time with, because they're your interpreter, with, because they're your interpreter, with, because they're your interpreter, if you will, to get your message out if you will, to get your message out if you will, to get your message out there. So, I think number one, get there. So, I think number one, get there. So, I think number one, get find somebody you trust, you're find somebody you trust, you're find somebody you trust, you're comfortable with, you respect and comfortable with, you respect and comfortable with, you respect and admire. And and that's, you know, in a admire. And and that's, you know, in a admire. And and that's, you know, in a smaller church, it's hard. You don't smaller church, it's hard. You don't smaller church, it's hard. You don't have the budget to hire really have the budget to hire really have the budget to hire really high-level people, but at the same time, high-level people, but at the same time, high-level people, but at the same time, you can either mentor them and grow you can either mentor them and grow you can either mentor them and grow them. Um there's other things you can do them. Um there's other things you can do them. Um there's other things you can do that will get them to where they need to that will get them to where they need to that will get them to where they need to be. be. be. >> Well, let's Can I can we just rewind a >> Well, let's Can I can we just rewind a >> Well, let's Can I can we just rewind a little bit, Phil, to earlier in the little bit, Phil, to earlier in the little bit, Phil, to earlier in the conversation, when Jason brought up that conversation, when Jason brought up that conversation, when Jason brought up that that this concept of the the media or that this concept of the the media or that this concept of the the media or the communications team being the communications team being the communications team being order-takers? You know, you said that order-takers? You know, you said that order-takers? You know, you said that the communications team, the media the communications team, the media the communications team, the media director, is often one of the most director, is often one of the most director, is often one of the most influential voices in the church. influential voices in the church. influential voices in the church. What What What what is a pastor or a leadership team what is a pastor or a leadership team what is a pastor or a leadership team leaving on the table when they merely leaving on the table when they merely leaving on the table when they merely treat their communications department or treat their communications department or treat their communications department or their media team like order-takers? When their media team like order-takers? When their media team like order-takers? When they're when they're purely put in a they're when they're purely put in a they're when they're purely put in a tactical lane, where all we expect you tactical lane, where all we expect you tactical lane, where all we expect you to do is make things look pretty and to do is make things look pretty and to do is make things look pretty and make things sound nice, but we don't make things sound nice, but we don't make things sound nice, but we don't give you a seat at that table, cuz give you a seat at that table, cuz give you a seat at that table, cuz that's what you just said, give them a that's what you just said, give them a that's what you just said, give them a seat at the table. Invite them to the seat at the table. Invite them to the seat at the table. Invite them to the table. What what are they missing out table. What what are they missing out table. What what are they missing out on?

on? on? Well, they're they're missing out number Well, they're they're missing out number Well, they're they're missing out number one on um one on um one on um I should say that they're piling work on I should say that they're piling work on I should say that they're piling work on themselves by by leaving it on the themselves by by leaving it on the themselves by by leaving it on the table. In other words, table. In other words, table. In other words, there's so many things in media and there's so many things in media and there's so many things in media and communication or media or community. I I communication or media or community. I I communication or media or community. I I say media or communications say media or communications say media or communications interchangeably. You know, in many interchangeably. You know, in many interchangeably. You know, in many churches, we have both jobs. One guy, churches, we have both jobs. One guy, churches, we have both jobs. One guy, you know, one person handles the media, you know, one person handles the media, you know, one person handles the media, one person handles the communication. one person handles the communication. one person handles the communication. So, some churches have both, some So, some churches have both, some So, some churches have both, some churches have one. But, the point is churches have one. But, the point is churches have one. But, the point is when you leave this kind of stuff on the when you leave this kind of stuff on the when you leave this kind of stuff on the table, you're just adding to your job table, you're just adding to your job table, you're just adding to your job load. You're You don't You know, you're load. You're You don't You know, you're load. You're You don't You know, you're adding to a lot of work. In other words, adding to a lot of work. In other words, adding to a lot of work. In other words, a communications director understands a communications director understands a communications director understands why social media works. They know how why social media works. They know how why social media works. They know how often we need to be posting. They know often we need to be posting. They know often we need to be posting. They know why a website works and what needs to be why a website works and what needs to be why a website works and what needs to be on there. They know how short videos on there. They know how short videos on there. They know how short videos work and how often we should pull clips work and how often we should pull clips work and how often we should pull clips from your message or do something from your message or do something from your message or do something special. Um by allowing them to do their special. Um by allowing them to do their special. Um by allowing them to do their thing, you're able to sit back and just thing, you're able to sit back and just thing, you're able to sit back and just relinquish a huge amount of your job to relinquish a huge amount of your job to relinquish a huge amount of your job to them. Otherwise, if you don't, you're them. Otherwise, if you don't, you're them. Otherwise, if you don't, you're going to be coming up with all this going to be coming up with all this going to be coming up with all this stuff and you're going to be constantly stuff and you're going to be constantly stuff and you're going to be constantly overwhelmed with how much you have to overwhelmed with how much you have to overwhelmed with how much you have to do. In fact, one of the big One of the do. In fact, one of the big One of the do. In fact, one of the big One of the big frustrations I get with churches and big frustrations I get with churches and big frustrations I get with churches and their communication teams is they're their communication teams is they're their communication teams is they're just order takers from everybody. Uh so, just order takers from everybody. Uh so, just order takers from everybody. Uh so, for instance, you know, the men's group for instance, you know, the men's group for instance, you know, the men's group wants a video. The The The biker wants a video. The The The biker wants a video. The The The biker ministry, they they want a mention in ministry, they they want a mention in ministry, they they want a mention in the bulletin. The redheaded knitters the bulletin. The redheaded knitters the bulletin. The redheaded knitters named Marge Bible Study Group, they want named Marge Bible Study Group, they want named Marge Bible Study Group, they want to have something said from the pulpit to have something said from the pulpit to have something said from the pulpit about their new gathering. You know, if about their new gathering. You know, if about their new gathering. You know, if you don't have filters, if you can't you don't have filters, if you can't you don't have filters, if you can't prioritize things that A, get a video or

prioritize things that A, get a video or prioritize things that A, get a video or get mentioned from the pulpit or get in get mentioned from the pulpit or get in get mentioned from the pulpit or get in the bulletin or whatever, the bulletin or whatever, the bulletin or whatever, you're going to kill yourself for one you're going to kill yourself for one you're going to kill yourself for one thing. And that happens in so many thing. And that happens in so many thing. And that happens in so many churches. I see comms teams that are churches. I see comms teams that are churches. I see comms teams that are just worn out because they have no just worn out because they have no just worn out because they have no filter. And the pastor is the one who filter. And the pastor is the one who filter. And the pastor is the one who gives them that filter, gives them the gives them that filter, gives them the gives them that filter, gives them the authority to say, "Okay, if you're a authority to say, "Okay, if you're a authority to say, "Okay, if you're a front door experience, if you're the front door experience, if you're the front door experience, if you're the Christmas pageant, absolutely you get a Christmas pageant, absolutely you get a Christmas pageant, absolutely you get a video. You get a mention from the video. You get a mention from the video. You get a mention from the pulpit. You get banners in the lobby. pulpit. You get banners in the lobby. pulpit. You get banners in the lobby. But, if you're that Redheaders head But, if you're that Redheaders head But, if you're that Redheaders head Redheaded knitters named Marge And I Redheaded knitters named Marge And I Redheaded knitters named Marge And I have to give credit to Don Baldwin who have to give credit to Don Baldwin who have to give credit to Don Baldwin who came up with that. The Redheaded came up with that. The Redheaded came up with that. The Redheaded knitters named Marge Bible study group, knitters named Marge Bible study group, knitters named Marge Bible study group, you have to grab gather those people you have to grab gather those people you have to grab gather those people yourself. You're going to have to make yourself. You're going to have to make yourself. You're going to have to make some phone calls. some phone calls. some phone calls. Or if you're the men's biker ministry, Or if you're the men's biker ministry, Or if you're the men's biker ministry, you're going to have to assemble that you're going to have to assemble that you're going to have to assemble that yourself. You You don't get a video. So, yourself. You You don't get a video. So, yourself. You You don't get a video. So, you know, just a sense of priorities you know, just a sense of priorities you know, just a sense of priorities about how many people it impacts can about how many people it impacts can about how many people it impacts can take a huge load off the pastor and the take a huge load off the pastor and the take a huge load off the pastor and the comms team as well. So, I I was kind of comms team as well. So, I I was kind of comms team as well. So, I I was kind of a little convoluted there, but you get a little convoluted there, but you get a little convoluted there, but you get the message. the message. the message. >> Well, I I I Yeah, it was it was a it was >> Well, I I I Yeah, it was it was a it was >> Well, I I I Yeah, it was it was a it was a few years in when I finally was a few years in when I finally was a few years in when I finally was elevated to the leadership team and I elevated to the leadership team and I elevated to the leadership team and I sat there going, "Holy cow. You guys are sat there going, "Holy cow. You guys are sat there going, "Holy cow. You guys are talking about I I I needed to know talking about I I I needed to know talking about I I I needed to know this." And you know, we I think we this." And you know, we I think we this." And you know, we I think we underestimate leaders how much is shared underestimate leaders how much is shared underestimate leaders how much is shared and and talked about and communicated at and and talked about and communicated at and and talked about and communicated at that level and your comm director, if that level and your comm director, if that level and your comm director, if they're not at least at that table, at they're not at least at that table, at they're not at least at that table, at least in the corner at the table, right?

least in the corner at the table, right? least in the corner at the table, right? They don't have to be on the executive They don't have to be on the executive They don't have to be on the executive team, but some kind of a leadership team team, but some kind of a leadership team team, but some kind of a leadership team where you're having really strategic where you're having really strategic where you're having really strategic conversations, you are doing yourself conversations, you are doing yourself conversations, you are doing yourself and that person injustice and your and that person injustice and your and that person injustice and your church. So, by all means, they need to church. So, by all means, they need to church. So, by all means, they need to be elevated at some level to be a part be elevated at some level to be a part be elevated at some level to be a part of that team. of that team. of that team. >> Well, how many pastors deliver the >> Well, how many pastors deliver the >> Well, how many pastors deliver the scriptures they want to put on the big scriptures they want to put on the big scriptures they want to put on the big screen, you know, 30 minutes before they screen, you know, 30 minutes before they screen, you know, 30 minutes before they go up and preach? go up and preach? go up and preach? That That's insane, you know? Get that That That's insane, you know? Get that That That's insane, you know? Get that team involved early. And here's the team involved early. And here's the team involved early. And here's the thing, you're cutting off some brilliant thing, you're cutting off some brilliant thing, you're cutting off some brilliant ideas. These are creative people. These ideas. These are creative people. These ideas. These are creative people. These are people that live for communication. are people that live for communication. are people that live for communication. These are people that love to come up These are people that love to come up These are people that love to come up with ideas. So, by bringing them in with ideas. So, by bringing them in with ideas. So, by bringing them in early, you're taking advantage of their early, you're taking advantage of their early, you're taking advantage of their creativity and that's what's going to creativity and that's what's going to creativity and that's what's going to make your ministry explode. make your ministry explode. make your ministry explode. >> We just had a a bunch of pastors >> We just had a a bunch of pastors >> We just had a a bunch of pastors together here in Phoenix not too long together here in Phoenix not too long together here in Phoenix not too long ago and we're talking about like like ago and we're talking about like like ago and we're talking about like like the church of tomorrow. And the church the church of tomorrow. And the church the church of tomorrow. And the church of tomorrow is really about how how AI of tomorrow is really about how how AI of tomorrow is really about how how AI is just is just is just doing some you know, crazy things. Good, doing some you know, crazy things. Good, doing some you know, crazy things. Good, bad, or ugly, you can decide, but it's bad, or ugly, you can decide, but it's bad, or ugly, you can decide, but it's doing some things. It's changing the way doing some things. It's changing the way doing some things. It's changing the way that we live and the way we operate. And that we live and the way we operate. And that we live and the way we operate. And the whole point of that was these days the whole point of that was these days the whole point of that was these days church, we have to place media just as church, we have to place media just as church, we have to place media just as important as our buildings and our important as our buildings and our important as our buildings and our pastor.

pastor. pastor. >> Oh, yes. >> Oh, yes. >> Oh, yes. >> elevate that because if we don't, this >> elevate that because if we don't, this >> elevate that because if we don't, this is how people people that we're trying is how people people that we're trying is how people people that we're trying to reach, people who don't follow Jesus, to reach, people who don't follow Jesus, to reach, people who don't follow Jesus, who don't love him, who don't go to who don't love him, who don't go to who don't love him, who don't go to church, those are the people we're church, those are the people we're church, those are the people we're trying to reach. And the way you reach trying to reach. And the way you reach trying to reach. And the way you reach them is through technology. I mean, them is through technology. I mean, them is through technology. I mean, primarily. primarily. primarily. >> Preach it. Preach it. Preach it. >> Preach it. Preach it. Preach it. >> Preach it. Preach it. Preach it. >> We have to elevate that. And it was the >> We have to elevate that. And it was the >> We have to elevate that. And it was the whole point of going, yeah, if your whole point of going, yeah, if your whole point of going, yeah, if your budget for that is this big, but your budget for that is this big, but your budget for that is this big, but your building budget is this big, and your building budget is this big, and your building budget is this big, and your pastoral staff is this big, you might be pastoral staff is this big, you might be pastoral staff is this big, you might be out of whack. out of whack. out of whack. >> Well, I was hoping more pastors would >> Well, I was hoping more pastors would >> Well, I was hoping more pastors would have seen that have seen that have seen that many churches in America today are open many churches in America today are open many churches in America today are open today because they're during COVID, it today because they're during COVID, it today because they're during COVID, it was their communication and media team was their communication and media team was their communication and media team that got them through. Absolutely got that got them through. Absolutely got that got them through. Absolutely got them through. them through. them through. And I was hoping they would remember And I was hoping they would remember And I was hoping they would remember that because that's so critical and that because that's so critical and that because that's so critical and important. Um, I just think that we live important. Um, I just think that we live important. Um, I just think that we live in a culture today where in a culture today where in a culture today where the communication, you're exactly right. the communication, you're exactly right. the communication, you're exactly right. Those roles need to be elevated. I mean, Those roles need to be elevated. I mean, Those roles need to be elevated. I mean, I love missions. I love education. I I love missions. I love education. I I love missions. I love education. I love, you know, ministry to the elderly. love, you know, ministry to the elderly. love, you know, ministry to the elderly. I love all these things you do. But the I love all these things you do. But the I love all these things you do. But the fact is, communication is helping you fact is, communication is helping you fact is, communication is helping you elevate your message to potentially elevate your message to potentially elevate your message to potentially thousands, if not millions, more people thousands, if not millions, more people thousands, if not millions, more people out there if you can utilize it well.

out there if you can utilize it well. out there if you can utilize it well. So, I mean, I know I know for instance, So, I mean, I know I know for instance, So, I mean, I know I know for instance, I know a pastor in Oklahoma that he has I know a pastor in Oklahoma that he has I know a pastor in Oklahoma that he has 700 members at his church, which is 700 members at his church, which is 700 members at his church, which is great. But his livestream is is seen by great. But his livestream is is seen by great. But his livestream is is seen by about 10,000 people every single week. about 10,000 people every single week. about 10,000 people every single week. Think about that. 700 people in the Think about that. 700 people in the Think about that. 700 people in the building, but he's got 10,000 people building, but he's got 10,000 people building, but he's got 10,000 people watching his livestream. That's a watching his livestream. That's a watching his livestream. That's a remarkable. That's amazing. So, I just I remarkable. That's amazing. So, I just I remarkable. That's amazing. So, I just I think that tools like that are powerful, think that tools like that are powerful, think that tools like that are powerful, powerful things that we should take powerful things that we should take powerful things that we should take advantage of. advantage of. advantage of. >> Yeah. Yeah, and and you you said this, I >> Yeah. Yeah, and and you you said this, I >> Yeah. Yeah, and and you you said this, I I think it's I say this all the time. I I think it's I say this all the time. I I think it's I say this all the time. I just said it to a a guy this morning just said it to a a guy this morning just said it to a a guy this morning who's the online pastor of a church. And who's the online pastor of a church. And who's the online pastor of a church. And he he also does the YouTube stuff. I he he also does the YouTube stuff. I he he also does the YouTube stuff. I said, well, hey, you know, what you said, well, hey, you know, what you said, well, hey, you know, what you really want to do and what I encourage really want to do and what I encourage really want to do and what I encourage his lead pastor to do was his lead pastor to do was his lead pastor to do was uh on Monday morning uh on Monday morning uh on Monday morning just open up your your iPhone and record just open up your your iPhone and record just open up your your iPhone and record a five six seven minute recap of a a five six seven minute recap of a a five six seven minute recap of a little bit deeper of what you didn't little bit deeper of what you didn't little bit deeper of what you didn't talk about yesterday in the pulpit on talk about yesterday in the pulpit on talk about yesterday in the pulpit on Sunday. You do it on Monday morning. Sunday. You do it on Monday morning. Sunday. You do it on Monday morning. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> You're speaking to a specific audience. >> You're speaking to a specific audience. >> You're speaking to a specific audience. Unchurched, maybe young male. And stick Unchurched, maybe young male. And stick Unchurched, maybe young male. And stick that on YouTube. I said, I told this that on YouTube. I said, I told this that on YouTube. I said, I told this guy, you can't do that. It's You're only guy, you can't do that. It's You're only guy, you can't do that. It's You're only person that could do that in your church person that could do that in your church person that could do that in your church is your lead pastor who was just came is your lead pastor who was just came is your lead pastor who was just came off the pulpit, right? But what you can off the pulpit, right? But what you can off the pulpit, right? But what you can do is you can make that thing go viral.

do is you can make that thing go viral. do is you can make that thing go viral. You can get it everywhere. He can't, you You can get it everywhere. He can't, you You can get it everywhere. He can't, you can. So it is that role and that lead can. So it is that role and that lead can. So it is that role and that lead pastor understands that. He He pastor understands that. He He pastor understands that. He He understands that, hey, I can do what I understands that, hey, I can do what I understands that, hey, I can do what I got to do and this is my sweet spot. got to do and this is my sweet spot. got to do and this is my sweet spot. This comes natural to me, but I know I This comes natural to me, but I know I This comes natural to me, but I know I need to do that so I can hand it off to need to do that so I can hand it off to need to do that so I can hand it off to the team who actually knows what they're the team who actually knows what they're the team who actually knows what they're doing. They're the ex- Like you said, doing. They're the ex- Like you said, doing. They're the ex- Like you said, they're the experts and they keep they're the experts and they keep they're the experts and they keep learning because the stuff always learning because the stuff always learning because the stuff always changes. And you got to have that rhythm changes. And you got to have that rhythm changes. And you got to have that rhythm because you're going to you're going to because you're going to you're going to because you're going to you're going to get more eyeballs on your on your get more eyeballs on your on your get more eyeballs on your on your content. content. content. >> Yeah, absolutely. Bart, how are we >> Yeah, absolutely. Bart, how are we >> Yeah, absolutely. Bart, how are we doing? Are we Are we ranting? Are we Are doing? Are we Are we ranting? Are we Are doing? Are we Are we ranting? Are we Are we accomplishing we accomplishing we accomplishing >> This is all I mean, we're we're all over >> This is all I mean, we're we're all over >> This is all I mean, we're we're all over the place, but it's really good. And I the place, but it's really good. And I the place, but it's really good. And I think, you know, I think the the the think, you know, I think the the the think, you know, I think the the the message that I'm kind of taking away message that I'm kind of taking away message that I'm kind of taking away here is here is here is really that the collaborative process really that the collaborative process really that the collaborative process between the lead pastor or the between the lead pastor or the between the lead pastor or the leadership team and their communications leadership team and their communications leadership team and their communications and creative team and creative team and creative team it it it the you really have to be in sync with the you really have to be in sync with the you really have to be in sync with each other. You have to be singing from each other. You have to be singing from each other. You have to be singing from the same song book, right? If you really the same song book, right? If you really the same song book, right? If you really want to take um those those creative want to take um those those creative want to take um those those creative seeds that maybe the pastor or the lead seeds that maybe the pastor or the lead seeds that maybe the pastor or the lead pastor has and give them to people who pastor has and give them to people who pastor has and give them to people who can actually help them come to fruition.

can actually help them come to fruition. can actually help them come to fruition. And I think, man, again, going back to And I think, man, again, going back to And I think, man, again, going back to sort of the the primary premise of this sort of the the primary premise of this sort of the the primary premise of this discussion today was discussion today was discussion today was we Jason and I have a real compassion we Jason and I have a real compassion we Jason and I have a real compassion for a lot of people in the communication for a lot of people in the communication for a lot of people in the communication role because as we go around and we do role because as we go around and we do role because as we go around and we do these live events, we do our road shows, these live events, we do our road shows, these live events, we do our road shows, we do our conference we do our conference we do our conference it's not uncommon at all for a it's not uncommon at all for a it's not uncommon at all for a significant percentage of the people in significant percentage of the people in significant percentage of the people in the room to feel undervalued in their the room to feel undervalued in their the room to feel undervalued in their role. They they feel like they are role. They they feel like they are role. They they feel like they are merely, you know, pixel pushers is what merely, you know, pixel pushers is what merely, you know, pixel pushers is what is what they are. Like they is what they are. Like they is what they are. Like they Gone are the days of the pencil pushers, Gone are the days of the pencil pushers, Gone are the days of the pencil pushers, they are the pixel pushers, right? they are the pixel pushers, right? they are the pixel pushers, right? That's that's really all they're doing. That's that's really all they're doing. That's that's really all they're doing. And And And and some of the churches that I get to and some of the churches that I get to and some of the churches that I get to work with who have some of the most work with who have some of the most work with who have some of the most successful and consistently successful and consistently successful and consistently engaging content are those in which the engaging content are those in which the engaging content are those in which the communications director gets the ear and communications director gets the ear and communications director gets the ear and a seat at the table with the senior a seat at the table with the senior a seat at the table with the senior pastor or the senior leadership team. pastor or the senior leadership team. pastor or the senior leadership team. Might not be on the senior leadership Might not be on the senior leadership Might not be on the senior leadership team, but is is close enough in team, but is is close enough in team, but is is close enough in proximity to be able to have a voice and proximity to be able to have a voice and proximity to be able to have a voice and and to be able to be engaged in the and to be able to be engaged in the and to be able to be engaged in the process of ideation and and and creating process of ideation and and and creating process of ideation and and and creating things from the beginning rather than things from the beginning rather than things from the beginning rather than merely being that order taker. So, merely being that order taker. So, merely being that order taker. So, I think there's so much what you guys I think there's so much what you guys I think there's so much what you guys are saying is is related to that are saying is is related to that are saying is is related to that collaborative process. Collaboration is collaborative process. Collaboration is collaborative process. Collaboration is a difficult thing, especially because we a difficult thing, especially because we a difficult thing, especially because we live in an individual individualistic live in an individual individualistic live in an individual individualistic culture, right? Even when you look at culture, right? Even when you look at culture, right? Even when you look at the personal platforms of people who are the personal platforms of people who are the personal platforms of people who are trying to build platforms on social trying to build platforms on social trying to build platforms on social media and that sort of thing, it looks media and that sort of thing, it looks media and that sort of thing, it looks like an individual sport. But in the

like an individual sport. But in the like an individual sport. But in the church world, the whole church is church world, the whole church is church world, the whole church is supposed to be a collaborative supposed to be a collaborative supposed to be a collaborative experience, right? We are one body made experience, right? We are one body made experience, right? We are one body made of many parts, and um the church staff, of many parts, and um the church staff, of many parts, and um the church staff, I think, needs to function that way as I think, needs to function that way as I think, needs to function that way as well. So, there's there's my There's my well. So, there's there's my There's my well. So, there's there's my There's my 10 cents' worth on all that. 10 cents' worth on all that. 10 cents' worth on all that. >> That's good. In fact, if I can, let me >> That's good. In fact, if I can, let me >> That's good. In fact, if I can, let me let me So, so so many comms directors let me So, so so many comms directors let me So, so so many comms directors are listening to this, let me throw out are listening to this, let me throw out are listening to this, let me throw out a couple things. If you want to elevate a couple things. If you want to elevate a couple things. If you want to elevate your your ideas and your position in the your your ideas and your position in the your your ideas and your position in the eyes of the pastor, let me give you a eyes of the pastor, let me give you a eyes of the pastor, let me give you a three or four quick quick suggestions. three or four quick quick suggestions. three or four quick quick suggestions. Number one, you should understand the Number one, you should understand the Number one, you should understand the pastor's vision better than anybody else pastor's vision better than anybody else pastor's vision better than anybody else at the church. Figure it out. Find out. at the church. Figure it out. Find out. at the church. Figure it out. Find out. Read about it. Talk to him about it. Read about it. Talk to him about it. Read about it. Talk to him about it. Talk to others about it. Understand Talk to others about it. Understand Talk to others about it. Understand exactly what he want where he's come exactly what he want where he's come exactly what he want where he's come from. Know his bio, where he's going, from. Know his bio, where he's going, from. Know his bio, where he's going, understand the pastor's vision. Second understand the pastor's vision. Second understand the pastor's vision. Second thing is, understand that it's not about thing is, understand that it's not about thing is, understand that it's not about technical equipment, it's about technical equipment, it's about technical equipment, it's about connecting with people. Worry less about connecting with people. Worry less about connecting with people. Worry less about the new model camera you've got, worry the new model camera you've got, worry the new model camera you've got, worry less about the new software program less about the new software program less about the new software program you've got, and worry more about how do you've got, and worry more about how do you've got, and worry more about how do we tell the story of this church? How do we tell the story of this church? How do we tell the story of this church? How do we tell the story of what my pastor's we tell the story of what my pastor's we tell the story of what my pastor's preaching on right now? How do we get preaching on right now? How do we get preaching on right now? How do we get that out there? I would also say, that out there? I would also say, that out there? I would also say, understand today's culture. You know understand today's culture. You know understand today's culture. You know what? Most pastors, they're not they're what? Most pastors, they're not they're what? Most pastors, they're not they're not up to speed on what's going on in not up to speed on what's going on in not up to speed on what's going on in the culture in a big way. And they often the culture in a big way. And they often the culture in a big way. And they often will rely on their comms people to say, will rely on their comms people to say, will rely on their comms people to say, you know, what's happening out there?

you know, what's happening out there? you know, what's happening out there? What should I be addressing? What should What should I be addressing? What should What should I be addressing? What should I not be addressing? What are people I not be addressing? What are people I not be addressing? What are people thinking? What are people feeling? So, thinking? What are people feeling? So, thinking? What are people feeling? So, do some study. Watch the news. Read. do some study. Watch the news. Read. do some study. Watch the news. Read. Understand what's going on out there in Understand what's going on out there in Understand what's going on out there in today's culture, and be that that person today's culture, and be that that person today's culture, and be that that person a pastor or ministry leader can rely on a pastor or ministry leader can rely on a pastor or ministry leader can rely on to find out what's going on. And I would to find out what's going on. And I would to find out what's going on. And I would also say, um, also say, um, also say, um, you know, just begin a kind of a program you know, just begin a kind of a program you know, just begin a kind of a program of personal growth in the media. I I I of personal growth in the media. I I I of personal growth in the media. I I I spend, you know, I you can't see them spend, you know, I you can't see them spend, you know, I you can't see them all back behind me, but I got about all back behind me, but I got about all back behind me, but I got about three or four thousand books in my three or four thousand books in my three or four thousand books in my office, and probably more than a half office, and probably more than a half office, and probably more than a half are on media. And so, I'm always trying are on media. And so, I'm always trying are on media. And so, I'm always trying to figure out, okay, what's next? What's to figure out, okay, what's next? What's to figure out, okay, what's next? What's coming up? How are we going to use AI? coming up? How are we going to use AI? coming up? How are we going to use AI? Should we use AI? AI? All that stuff. I Should we use AI? AI? All that stuff. I Should we use AI? AI? All that stuff. I I just spend my life consumed by that, I just spend my life consumed by that, I just spend my life consumed by that, because when a pastor calls or a because when a pastor calls or a because when a pastor calls or a ministry leader calls, I want to be able ministry leader calls, I want to be able ministry leader calls, I want to be able to say, here's what I think. Here's my to say, here's what I think. Here's my to say, here's what I think. Here's my recommendations. Here's my suggestions. recommendations. Here's my suggestions. recommendations. Here's my suggestions. So, that is absolutely critical So, that is absolutely critical So, that is absolutely critical critically important. And the last thing critically important. And the last thing critically important. And the last thing I would just say, it goes without I would just say, it goes without I would just say, it goes without saying, learn how to lead creative saying, learn how to lead creative saying, learn how to lead creative people. You know, you you may be a people. You know, you you may be a people. You know, you you may be a graphic designer now, or a video person, graphic designer now, or a video person, graphic designer now, or a video person, or you know, something else. But one day or you know, something else. But one day or you know, something else. But one day you're going to lead a creative team of you're going to lead a creative team of you're going to lead a creative team of people. And if you want to continue with people. And if you want to continue with people. And if you want to continue with your career and move up, you know how to your career and move up, you know how to your career and move up, you know how to motivate and inspire those guys. There's motivate and inspire those guys. There's motivate and inspire those guys. There's a lot of There's a lot of material out a lot of There's a lot of material out a lot of There's a lot of material out there on leadership. You know, guys like there on leadership. You know, guys like there on leadership. You know, guys like John Maxwell and others have done a John Maxwell and others have done a John Maxwell and others have done a brilliant job. However, there's brilliant job. However, there's brilliant job. However, there's virtually nothing out there on how to virtually nothing out there on how to virtually nothing out there on how to lead creative people. And so, I think lead creative people. And so, I think lead creative people. And so, I think learning to motivate and inspire learning to motivate and inspire learning to motivate and inspire creative people, I think it'll be the creative people, I think it'll be the creative people, I think it'll be the greatest skill you could possibly learn greatest skill you could possibly learn greatest skill you could possibly learn as a communication or media director for as a communication or media director for as a communication or media director for the future.

the future. the future. >> Oh, so good. Oh, wow. Okay. >> Oh, so good. Oh, wow. Okay. >> Oh, so good. Oh, wow. Okay. >> Well, let me say I'm I'm going to make >> Well, let me say I'm I'm going to make >> Well, let me say I'm I'm going to make one more comment here, Jason, and then one more comment here, Jason, and then one more comment here, Jason, and then I'll let you wrap things up. I Phil, you I'll let you wrap things up. I Phil, you I'll let you wrap things up. I Phil, you said something there that as as you were said something there that as as you were said something there that as as you were saying this, it it really occurred to me saying this, it it really occurred to me saying this, it it really occurred to me that what what the communications that what what the communications that what what the communications director and the media team really are director and the media team really are director and the media team really are to to a great degree is they're they're to to a great degree is they're they're to to a great degree is they're they're translators. So, I've I've only been on translators. So, I've I've only been on translators. So, I've I've only been on a couple of mission trips in my life. I a couple of mission trips in my life. I a couple of mission trips in my life. I remember going on one particular mission remember going on one particular mission remember going on one particular mission trip where I did not know the language trip where I did not know the language trip where I did not know the language that was being spoken in the community, that was being spoken in the community, that was being spoken in the community, but I had the opportunity to talk to but I had the opportunity to talk to but I had the opportunity to talk to people on the streets and share the people on the streets and share the people on the streets and share the gospel with them. gospel with them. gospel with them. Without the translator there to take my Without the translator there to take my Without the translator there to take my words and communicate it in a way that words and communicate it in a way that words and communicate it in a way that the people there understood it, the the people there understood it, the the people there understood it, the message of the gospel would have never message of the gospel would have never message of the gospel would have never been heard. It would have been been heard. It would have been been heard. It would have been completely unclear. And I think you made completely unclear. And I think you made completely unclear. And I think you made a really good point when you talked a really good point when you talked a really good point when you talked about the the communications team, the about the the communications team, the about the the communications team, the communications director, knowing and communications director, knowing and communications director, knowing and understanding the culture because there understanding the culture because there understanding the culture because there if they're given the right role and the if they're given the right role and the if they're given the right role and the right opportunity in the church, they right opportunity in the church, they right opportunity in the church, they basically become the translator for basically become the translator for basically become the translator for their pastor to say, "Hey, we're going their pastor to say, "Hey, we're going their pastor to say, "Hey, we're going to we're going to take your language, to we're going to take your language, to we're going to take your language, your passion, your your ability to your passion, your your ability to your passion, your your ability to communicate, but we're going to communicate, but we're going to communicate, but we're going to translate it into a way that helps the translate it into a way that helps the translate it into a way that helps the people that we're trying to reach or people that we're trying to reach or people that we're trying to reach or even our own church family hear it and even our own church family hear it and even our own church family hear it and understand it in a way that can really understand it in a way that can really understand it in a way that can really make an impact in their life." So, I make an impact in their life." So, I make an impact in their life." So, I really liked where you were going with really liked where you were going with really liked where you were going with that and and may may maybe there's a that and and may may maybe there's a that and and may may maybe there's a book idea in there somewhere.

book idea in there somewhere. book idea in there somewhere. >> Anyway, I I thought that was really >> Anyway, I I thought that was really >> Anyway, I I thought that was really that's really cool. that's really cool. that's really cool. >> Good. >> Good. >> Good. >> Okay, Jason, I'll hand things over to >> Okay, Jason, I'll hand things over to >> Okay, Jason, I'll hand things over to you and then we'll wrap things up here you and then we'll wrap things up here you and then we'll wrap things up here in just a minute. in just a minute. in just a minute. >> Well, we're we're I'm so excited cuz >> Well, we're we're I'm so excited cuz >> Well, we're we're I'm so excited cuz Phil's coming to our conference in Phil's coming to our conference in Phil's coming to our conference in September. Kansas City, here we come, September. Kansas City, here we come, September. Kansas City, here we come, September 23rd through the 25th. Phil's September 23rd through the 25th. Phil's September 23rd through the 25th. Phil's going to bring a keynote. Um Phil, just going to bring a keynote. Um Phil, just going to bring a keynote. Um Phil, just a little a little insight into like a little a little insight into like a little a little insight into like maybe what you're going to talk about or maybe what you're going to talk about or maybe what you're going to talk about or has the Lord shared that with you yet? has the Lord shared that with you yet? has the Lord shared that with you yet? >> You know what? He hadn't he hadn't >> You know what? He hadn't he hadn't >> You know what? He hadn't he hadn't showed up yet and told me what to say. showed up yet and told me what to say. showed up yet and told me what to say. Um you know what? I I don't want to say Um you know what? I I don't want to say Um you know what? I I don't want to say I'm waiting till the last minute, but I I'm waiting till the last minute, but I I'm waiting till the last minute, but I want to I really want to spend time want to I really want to spend time want to I really want to spend time thinking about this. I think thinking about this. I think thinking about this. I think communication and media people are in communication and media people are in communication and media people are in such a pivotal role today that I just I such a pivotal role today that I just I such a pivotal role today that I just I just think this is a really important just think this is a really important just think this is a really important gathering we're going to have in Kansas gathering we're going to have in Kansas gathering we're going to have in Kansas City and I'm looking forward to really City and I'm looking forward to really City and I'm looking forward to really bringing up some issues and some bringing up some issues and some bringing up some issues and some questions and some thoughts that maybe a questions and some thoughts that maybe a questions and some thoughts that maybe a lot of the attendees haven't thought lot of the attendees haven't thought lot of the attendees haven't thought about yet and how they could go to the about yet and how they could go to the about yet and how they could go to the next level in their career and their next level in their career and their next level in their career and their life. I mean, this you know, this is not life. I mean, this you know, this is not life. I mean, this you know, this is not just a temporary gig. Being a just a temporary gig. Being a just a temporary gig. Being a communication or media director is a communication or media director is a communication or media director is a life long thing and it's an incredibly life long thing and it's an incredibly life long thing and it's an incredibly important thing. I I usually tell the important thing. I I usually tell the important thing. I I usually tell the media team that their calling is just as media team that their calling is just as media team that their calling is just as important as the pastor's calling.

important as the pastor's calling. important as the pastor's calling. Absolutely because God has called us to Absolutely because God has called us to Absolutely because God has called us to take that message as you say and take that message as you say and take that message as you say and interpret it to millions and millions of interpret it to millions and millions of interpret it to millions and millions of people. So, I just I I just have such a people. So, I just I I just have such a people. So, I just I I just have such a burden to elevate them in their own burden to elevate them in their own burden to elevate them in their own eyes, just to make them give them more eyes, just to make them give them more eyes, just to make them give them more confidence and authority in what they're confidence and authority in what they're confidence and authority in what they're doing so that that'll that'll translate doing so that that'll that'll translate doing so that that'll that'll translate to their pastor and other people and to their pastor and other people and to their pastor and other people and it'll make a big difference. So, I'm it'll make a big difference. So, I'm it'll make a big difference. So, I'm excited. I thought excited. I thought excited. I thought number one, I appreciate the invitation number one, I appreciate the invitation number one, I appreciate the invitation and number two, we'll have something and number two, we'll have something and number two, we'll have something really great. really great. really great. >> I can't wait. You're it's always good. >> I can't wait. You're it's always good. >> I can't wait. You're it's always good. It's always good to talk with you. Thank It's always good to talk with you. Thank It's always good to talk with you. Thank you for you for you for some time. Just love you, love your some time. Just love you, love your some time. Just love you, love your heart, love your ministry, love the heart, love your ministry, love the heart, love your ministry, love the things you say and communicate. You're a things you say and communicate. You're a things you say and communicate. You're a blessing to us. Thank you. blessing to us. Thank you. blessing to us. Thank you. >> Well, very thank you. >> Well, very thank you. >> Well, very thank you. >> Kansas City's going to be a lot of fun. >> Kansas City's going to be a lot of fun. >> Kansas City's going to be a lot of fun. So, if you've made it all the way to end So, if you've made it all the way to end So, if you've made it all the way to end of this podcast, we're grateful that you of this podcast, we're grateful that you of this podcast, we're grateful that you did. I'm going to drop a few web did. I'm going to drop a few web did. I'm going to drop a few web addresses that you need to know. addresses that you need to know. addresses that you need to know. For starters, churchcommunications.com For starters, churchcommunications.com For starters, churchcommunications.com is where you can find all the is where you can find all the is where you can find all the information about information about information about the conference that's happening in the conference that's happening in the conference that's happening in September. And if you can't make it to September. And if you can't make it to September. And if you can't make it to the conference in September, we do have the conference in September, we do have the conference in September, we do have some traveling road shows that are going some traveling road shows that are going some traveling road shows that are going to be happening in different parts of to be happening in different parts of to be happening in different parts of the country, but we would love for you the country, but we would love for you the country, but we would love for you to come to the conference, hang out with to come to the conference, hang out with to come to the conference, hang out with us, hang out with Dr. Phil here, Dr.

us, hang out with Dr. Phil here, Dr. us, hang out with Dr. Phil here, Dr. Phil Cook, and Phil Cook, and Phil Cook, and we'll and and we'll and and we'll and and trust me, it will would well worth the trust me, it will would well worth the trust me, it will would well worth the time and effort that you make to get time and effort that you make to get time and effort that you make to get there. Great couple of days of equipping there. Great couple of days of equipping there. Great couple of days of equipping all those details again on all those details again on all those details again on churchcommunications.com. churchcommunications.com. churchcommunications.com. If you want to learn more about Phil, If you want to learn more about Phil, If you want to learn more about Phil, like maybe this is the first time you've like maybe this is the first time you've like maybe this is the first time you've ever been exposed to Phil Cooke, you can ever been exposed to Phil Cooke, you can ever been exposed to Phil Cooke, you can get more information about Phil in his get more information about Phil in his get more information about Phil in his website which is philcooke.com and Cooke website which is philcooke.com and Cooke website which is philcooke.com and Cooke is has an e on the end, okay? So Phil is has an e on the end, okay? So Phil is has an e on the end, okay? So Phil Cooke e with a Cooke e with a Cooke e with a with an e dot com with an e dot com with an e dot com or the cookmediagroup.com or the cookmediagroup.com or the cookmediagroup.com which also that cook has an e on the end which also that cook has an e on the end which also that cook has an e on the end of it as well. So cook media group. of it as well. So cook media group. of it as well. So cook media group. Phil's written some great books. We've Phil's written some great books. We've Phil's written some great books. We've talked about them in previous episodes talked about them in previous episodes talked about them in previous episodes of our podcast. We'll link to those of our podcast. We'll link to those of our podcast. We'll link to those previous episodes in the show notes of previous episodes in the show notes of previous episodes in the show notes of this one. And again, if you find this this one. And again, if you find this this one. And again, if you find this content that we're creating to be content that we're creating to be content that we're creating to be helpful for you and you haven't yet helpful for you and you haven't yet helpful for you and you haven't yet shared it with somebody, would you do shared it with somebody, would you do shared it with somebody, would you do that? That would really mean a lot to that? That would really mean a lot to that? That would really mean a lot to us. us. us. And if you haven't ever subscribed And if you haven't ever subscribed And if you haven't ever subscribed wherever you listen to your favorite wherever you listen to your favorite wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, make sure that you do that. podcast, make sure that you do that. podcast, make sure that you do that. We're we're we're not maybe the most We're we're we're not maybe the most We're we're we're not maybe the most consistent podcast droppers on the consistent podcast droppers on the consistent podcast droppers on the planet. So because we don't release an planet. So because we don't release an planet. So because we don't release an episode every single week, just kind of episode every single week, just kind of episode every single week, just kind of when we get around to it, we don't want when we get around to it, we don't want when we get around to it, we don't want you to miss any future episodes. So if you to miss any future episodes. So if you to miss any future episodes. So if you subscribe, they'll all be delivered you subscribe, they'll all be delivered you subscribe, they'll all be delivered right to your media right to your media right to your media device. Jason, thanks for hanging out device. Jason, thanks for hanging out device. Jason, thanks for hanging out with me today. Phil, looking forward to with me today. Phil, looking forward to with me today. Phil, looking forward to hanging out with you in Kansas City. And hanging out with you in Kansas City. And hanging out with you in Kansas City. And for all of our audience, we'll see you for all of our audience, we'll see you for all of our audience, we'll see you next time.