Wins, Losses and Concerns for the Local Church in Light of COVID-19 | Jim Tomberlin

welcome to the church growth welcome to the church growth podcast my name is jason hamrock i am podcast my name is jason hamrock i am podcast my name is jason hamrock i am your host your host your host today on the podcast have the privilege today on the podcast have the privilege today on the podcast have the privilege of having jim tomberlin of having jim tomberlin of having jim tomberlin on the show jim is quite a guy he has on the show jim is quite a guy he has on the show jim is quite a guy he has been in ministry for over four been in ministry for over four been in ministry for over four decades jim's known as the multi-site decades jim's known as the multi-site decades jim's known as the multi-site uh expert around the country he's been uh expert around the country he's been uh expert around the country he's been helping churches helping churches helping churches figure out how to do multi-site for a figure out how to do multi-site for a figure out how to do multi-site for a long long long time long long long time long long long time he's also an expert in a specialist in he's also an expert in a specialist in he's also an expert in a specialist in church mergers church mergers church mergers which is a thing that we're going to which is a thing that we're going to which is a thing that we're going to talk about and talk about and talk about and he also is the chief of staff of christ he also is the chief of staff of christ he also is the chief of staff of christ fellowship church in miami fellowship church in miami fellowship church in miami he works with the unstuck group there's he works with the unstuck group there's he works with the unstuck group there's not a lot he doesn't do not a lot he doesn't do not a lot he doesn't do so i'm excited for you to hear from jim so i'm excited for you to hear from jim so i'm excited for you to hear from jim well jim hey great to have you on the well jim hey great to have you on the well jim hey great to have you on the podcast podcast podcast it's great to be with you today excited it's great to be with you today excited it's great to be with you today excited for our conversation today for our conversation today for our conversation today uh i first and foremost let's tell the uh i first and foremost let's tell the uh i first and foremost let's tell the audience a little bit about audience a little bit about audience a little bit about you and your ministry and what you're you and your ministry and what you're you and your ministry and what you're doing these days doing these days doing these days well jason i'm proud to say that i this well jason i'm proud to say that i this well jason i'm proud to say that i this year begins my fifth decade in local year begins my fifth decade in local year begins my fifth decade in local church ministry church ministry church ministry and and i still love the local church and and i still love the local church and and i still love the local church amen amen amen but i i've served several churches over but i i've served several churches over but i i've served several churches over the years from new mexico the years from new mexico the years from new mexico germany colorado chicago and now i'm germany colorado chicago and now i'm germany colorado chicago and now i'm serving as the chief of staff serving as the chief of staff serving as the chief of staff at christ fellowship in miami which was at christ fellowship in miami which was at christ fellowship in miami which was a client of mine and a client of mine and a client of mine and three years ago they said could you just three years ago they said could you just three years ago they said could you just step into this role for a while and so step into this role for a while and so step into this role for a while and so here we are three plus years i'm still here we are three plus years i'm still here we are three plus years i'm still doing it

doing it doing it wow but i was an early pioneer in the wow but i was an early pioneer in the wow but i was an early pioneer in the multi-site church movement when i was multi-site church movement when i was multi-site church movement when i was leading my church in colorado which i leading my church in colorado which i leading my church in colorado which i still am a member of and attend when i'm still am a member of and attend when i'm still am a member of and attend when i'm in town in town in town yeah in colorado springs but um yeah in colorado springs but um yeah in colorado springs but um that kind of catapulted me into that uh that kind of catapulted me into that uh that kind of catapulted me into that uh movement movement movement and i've written a couple of few books and i've written a couple of few books and i've written a couple of few books about multi-side and about multi-side and about multi-side and about church mergers uh over the years about church mergers uh over the years about church mergers uh over the years and uh started a company called and uh started a company called and uh started a company called multi-site solutions in 2005 when i left multi-site solutions in 2005 when i left multi-site solutions in 2005 when i left willow willow willow creek to serve churches around the creek to serve churches around the creek to serve churches around the country um country um country um and uh been doing that ever since i and uh been doing that ever since i and uh been doing that ever since i merged my company with my good friend merged my company with my good friend merged my company with my good friend tony morgan in the unstuck group which tony morgan in the unstuck group which tony morgan in the unstuck group which we've been we've been we've been comrades over the years and and uh just comrades over the years and and uh just comrades over the years and and uh just just been really pleased and delighted just been really pleased and delighted just been really pleased and delighted to uh to uh to uh have merged my company with them and have merged my company with them and have merged my company with them and that's worked out really well but i'm that's worked out really well but i'm that's worked out really well but i'm continuing to consult and continuing to consult and continuing to consult and serve where i can yeah you have a wealth serve where i can yeah you have a wealth serve where i can yeah you have a wealth of knowledge that of knowledge that of knowledge that i'm looking forward to tapping into so i'm looking forward to tapping into so i'm looking forward to tapping into so so so so when you talk about multi-site church when you talk about multi-site church when you talk about multi-site church and that was like and that was like and that was like the wave of the last what 15 years or so the wave of the last what 15 years or so the wave of the last what 15 years or so um the idea was let's go church planning um the idea was let's go church planning um the idea was let's go church planning is still there but let's go add more is still there but let's go add more is still there but let's go add more campuses to where our people are coming campuses to where our people are coming campuses to where our people are coming from and you just turned into that model from and you just turned into that model from and you just turned into that model and and and no doubt at our church we did that and no doubt at our church we did that and no doubt at our church we did that and churches all over the country are doing churches all over the country are doing churches all over the country are doing that that that but then last year happened and it but then last year happened and it but then last year happened and it sort of shifted everything so uh sort of shifted everything so uh sort of shifted everything so uh share a little bit what's what's kept share a little bit what's what's kept share a little bit what's what's kept you busy during this pandemic and you busy during this pandemic and you busy during this pandemic and what do you think the impact's been on what do you think the impact's been on what do you think the impact's been on the local church

the local church the local church well jason i would say that first of all well jason i would say that first of all well jason i would say that first of all my journey with multi-site church began my journey with multi-site church began my journey with multi-site church began more than 15 years ago back in 1997 more than 15 years ago back in 1997 more than 15 years ago back in 1997 oh wow okay i have a video that we made oh wow okay i have a video that we made oh wow okay i have a video that we made where i was casting the vision where i was casting the vision where i was casting the vision to my church in colorado to think about to my church in colorado to think about to my church in colorado to think about a different way of thinking about church a different way of thinking about church a different way of thinking about church as you approach the 21st century as you approach the 21st century as you approach the 21st century and i mentioned the phrase here in 1997 and i mentioned the phrase here in 1997 and i mentioned the phrase here in 1997 as we approach the 21st century it's as we approach the 21st century it's as we approach the 21st century it's time to think differently about church time to think differently about church time to think differently about church and uh one church in two locations my and uh one church in two locations my and uh one church in two locations my vision was small just two locations but so uh you know it's we're like the but so uh you know it's we're like the fourth decade almost to this fourth decade almost to this fourth decade almost to this movement but i would say um it's been movement but i would say um it's been movement but i would say um it's been had been growing had been growing had been growing uh before the last year before covent uh before the last year before covent uh before the last year before covent but when covet hit but when covet hit but when covet hit every church became a multi-site church i was just on a webinar with a hundred i was just on a webinar with a hundred russian pastors russian pastors russian pastors and um and they like we uh and um and they like we uh and um and they like we uh had to go online there's only way they had to go online there's only way they had to go online there's only way they could do church during the covet season could do church during the covet season could do church during the covet season time last year and i said uh you know time last year and i said uh you know time last year and i said uh you know they were learning more about multi-site they were learning more about multi-site they were learning more about multi-site i said well you've already i said well you've already i said well you've already you've become that now and so you have a you've become that now and so you have a you've become that now and so you have a physical campus physical campus physical campus and now you're online as well and so but and now you're online as well and so but and now you're online as well and so but um you we've heard this before and every um you we've heard this before and every um you we've heard this before and every every endeavor every endeavor every endeavor kova didn't really change things it just kova didn't really change things it just kova didn't really change things it just accelerated what was already changing accelerated what was already changing accelerated what was already changing and so the good the bad and the ugly uh and so the good the bad and the ugly uh and so the good the bad and the ugly uh pre-covert pre-covert pre-covert uh was accelerated during covid and so uh was accelerated during covid and so uh was accelerated during covid and so we're seeing that coming we're seeing that coming we're seeing that coming on the other side of this into the new on the other side of this into the new on the other side of this into the new covet era

covet era covet era a lot of the trends that we're already a lot of the trends that we're already a lot of the trends that we're already we're seeing happening is we're seeing happening is we're seeing happening is the churches that are flourishing are the churches that are flourishing are the churches that are flourishing are embracing those embracing those embracing those uh what was already happening before uh what was already happening before uh what was already happening before yeah so i mean you know you're right i yeah so i mean you know you're right i yeah so i mean you know you're right i think the think the think the the churches that we're doing that now the churches that we're doing that now the churches that we're doing that now are just doing are just doing are just doing even though it's it's deeper it seems even though it's it's deeper it seems even though it's it's deeper it seems like when we talk to churches they've like when we talk to churches they've like when we talk to churches they've always been online always been online always been online not all of them but a lot of them put not all of them but a lot of them put not all of them but a lot of them put their sermons out there or services out their sermons out there or services out their sermons out there or services out there there there not a lot of them had ministry online not a lot of them had ministry online not a lot of them had ministry online but they're but they're but they're now doing that are you seeing some good now doing that are you seeing some good now doing that are you seeing some good trends of trends of trends of of the churches that you're consulting of the churches that you're consulting of the churches that you're consulting with and certainly your church about with and certainly your church about with and certainly your church about how to do ministry online and what does how to do ministry online and what does how to do ministry online and what does that look like because that look like because that look like because i think there's a difference between i think there's a difference between i think there's a difference between just putting out a service just putting out a service just putting out a service and engagement totally definitely i and engagement totally definitely i and engagement totally definitely i the church online has become the main the church online has become the main the church online has become the main campus of a church campus of a church campus of a church and the uh you know before covert there and the uh you know before covert there and the uh you know before covert there was a lot of debate can you really be a was a lot of debate can you really be a was a lot of debate can you really be a church online church online church online is that really valid there's a lot of is that really valid there's a lot of is that really valid there's a lot of debate about video teaching nobody's debate about video teaching nobody's debate about video teaching nobody's nobody is making those arguments anymore nobody is making those arguments anymore nobody is making those arguments anymore or those protests the concepts so uh or those protests the concepts so uh or those protests the concepts so uh i think in those regard but from even i think in those regard but from even i think in those regard but from even for churches that were doing online it for churches that were doing online it for churches that were doing online it was more seen as the secondary campus or was more seen as the secondary campus or was more seen as the secondary campus or kind of for those who can't make it to kind of for those who can't make it to kind of for those who can't make it to church church church or it was all about let's how do we get or it was all about let's how do we get or it was all about let's how do we get get people to the physical get people to the physical get people to the physical campus and then uh oh yeah by the way campus and then uh oh yeah by the way campus and then uh oh yeah by the way you can you can you can you can you can you can visit us online as well and so we visit us online as well and so we visit us online as well and so we started with let's how do we get our started with let's how do we get our started with let's how do we get our physical experience into a digital physical experience into a digital physical experience into a digital space and i think the shift what is is

space and i think the shift what is is space and i think the shift what is is is is is beginning to happen now for for the beginning to happen now for for the beginning to happen now for for the leading churches is our how do we get leading churches is our how do we get leading churches is our how do we get our digital space our digital space our digital space uh how do we go from digital to physical uh how do we go from digital to physical uh how do we go from digital to physical uh a good example um uh a good example um uh a good example um uh uh walmart and amazon uh uh walmart and amazon uh uh walmart and amazon two competitors uh if you go to walmart two competitors uh if you go to walmart two competitors uh if you go to walmart today today today you'll see that amazon started out you'll see that amazon started out you'll see that amazon started out digital digital digital and and just in the last few years have and and just in the last few years have and and just in the last few years have begun to have a few begun to have a few begun to have a few uh physical locations to sell their uh physical locations to sell their uh physical locations to sell their products and you just come in and pick products and you just come in and pick products and you just come in and pick them up you know them up you know them up you know you know like you order them online we you know like you order them online we you know like you order them online we just pick them up but uh but if you go just pick them up but uh but if you go just pick them up but uh but if you go to to to to walmart today you'll see bins that to walmart today you'll see bins that to walmart today you'll see bins that amazon is rented out from walnut mart amazon is rented out from walnut mart amazon is rented out from walnut mart so now they're digital you know taking so now they're digital you know taking so now they're digital you know taking what happened digital and delivering it what happened digital and delivering it what happened digital and delivering it to physical to physical to physical versus walmart and target and all those versus walmart and target and all those versus walmart and target and all those started out physical and then they try started out physical and then they try started out physical and then they try to figure out how to get to figure out how to get to figure out how to get sell online but even that's just to sell online but even that's just to sell online but even that's just to bring people into the stores bring people into the stores bring people into the stores so we're seeing all those kinds of so we're seeing all those kinds of so we're seeing all those kinds of trends with churches as well trends with churches as well trends with churches as well and that we truly are beginning to and that we truly are beginning to and that we truly are beginning to realize the online realize the online realize the online is the front door of the church it's is the front door of the church it's is the front door of the church it's where the new people are where the new people are where the new people are and if you're only focusing on getting and if you're only focusing on getting and if you're only focusing on getting your people back pre-covert your people back pre-covert your people back pre-covert that's uh you're you're that's a losing that's uh you're you're that's a losing that's uh you're you're that's a losing game game game you've got to be watching new people and you've got to be watching new people and you've got to be watching new people and the new people primarily are going to be the new people primarily are going to be the new people primarily are going to be reached online reached online reached online and so you you made a comment too about and so you you made a comment too about and so you you made a comment too about more personal versus platform more personal versus platform more personal versus platform based what do you mean by that well i based what do you mean by that well i based what do you mean by that well i think one of the great things that think one of the great things that think one of the great things that happened last year was happened last year was happened last year was pastors our staff our campus pastors and

pastors our staff our campus pastors and pastors our staff our campus pastors and we have seven locations here in miami we have seven locations here in miami we have seven locations here in miami and and and and and 13 globally they were all over and and 13 globally they were all over and and 13 globally they were all over full the old fashioned phone call full the old fashioned phone call full the old fashioned phone call calling calling calling every we call through our database every we call through our database every we call through our database several times during several times during several times during all that time we had more personal all that time we had more personal all that time we had more personal ministry i believe and ministry i believe and ministry i believe and in those months then we've been we've in those months then we've been we've in those months then we've been we've had in a long long time in local church had in a long long time in local church had in a long long time in local church ministries especially large churches ministries especially large churches ministries especially large churches because it was so much before about the because it was so much before about the because it was so much before about the platform and coming in platform and coming in platform and coming in and hearing that you know the pastors and hearing that you know the pastors and hearing that you know the pastors preach or whatever preach or whatever preach or whatever and it could be very impersonal we get and it could be very impersonal we get and it could be very impersonal we get we would get them into small groups and we would get them into small groups and we would get them into small groups and all that and we worked hard at that and all that and we worked hard at that and all that and we worked hard at that and we we we we've done we've got 80 percent of our we've done we've got 80 percent of our we've done we've got 80 percent of our people in small groups even before people in small groups even before people in small groups even before covered covered covered but um but it was more pastoral but um but it was more pastoral but um but it was more pastoral care i think going on during these days care i think going on during these days care i think going on during these days i think that was a good thing i think that was a good thing i think that was a good thing every church i talked to they were doing every church i talked to they were doing every church i talked to they were doing the same thing they were calling through the same thing they were calling through the same thing they were calling through every member of their database every member of their database every member of their database every person they've ever had any every person they've ever had any every person they've ever had any contact with called it contact with called it contact with called it several times i agree with you several times i agree with you several times i agree with you i think mainly they're doing it because i think mainly they're doing it because i think mainly they're doing it because they want you know they can't they want you know they can't they want you know they can't afford to lose people and lose income afford to lose people and lose income afford to lose people and lose income right from people giving and tithing right from people giving and tithing right from people giving and tithing but it but the the silver lining and all but it but the the silver lining and all but it but the the silver lining and all that is they actually connected with that is they actually connected with that is they actually connected with people people people how you doing what we pray for what's in how you doing what we pray for what's in how you doing what we pray for what's in need of yours and need of yours and need of yours and to me i i go thank you god you to me i i go thank you god you to me i i go thank you god you kind of made that happen and spun that kind of made that happen and spun that kind of made that happen and spun that out out out i think one of the great uh i think one of the great uh i think one of the great uh breakthroughs or one of the hahas that breakthroughs or one of the hahas that breakthroughs or one of the hahas that the church has had is that before kobut the church has had is that before kobut the church has had is that before kobut we used to think we used to think we used to think buildings generate income you've got to buildings generate income you've got to buildings generate income you've got to meet or your offerings will go down

meet or your offerings will go down meet or your offerings will go down we quickly learn in two weeks every we quickly learn in two weeks every we quickly learn in two weeks every church in america figured out church in america figured out church in america figured out you know online giving is not a bad you know online giving is not a bad you know online giving is not a bad thing there were people actually thing there were people actually thing there were people actually resisting that resisting that resisting that i can remember when people would say you i can remember when people would say you i can remember when people would say you know it robs people of the act of know it robs people of the act of know it robs people of the act of worship putting in an offering plate you worship putting in an offering plate you worship putting in an offering plate you didn't hear any of those kind of didn't hear any of those kind of didn't hear any of those kind of arguments last year arguments last year arguments last year oh my gosh uh but we realize uh we don't oh my gosh uh but we realize uh we don't oh my gosh uh but we realize uh we don't have to meet to have to meet to have to meet to buildings don't reach people i have buildings don't reach people i have buildings don't reach people i have always said ministry reaches people always said ministry reaches people always said ministry reaches people people reach people people reach people people reach people and buildings don't reach people and buildings don't reach people and buildings don't reach people ministry does and so ministry does and so ministry does and so and if you are you know ministering to and if you are you know ministering to and if you are you know ministering to people serving people people serving people people serving people they will support that that ministry they will support that that ministry they will support that that ministry financially whether you meet physically financially whether you meet physically financially whether you meet physically or not or not or not um and this last year proved that yeah um and this last year proved that yeah um and this last year proved that yeah your building is an awareness your building is an awareness your building is an awareness uh but yeah you got to have that uh but yeah you got to have that uh but yeah you got to have that personal relationship and personal relationship and personal relationship and connecting with people yeah and i think connecting with people yeah and i think connecting with people yeah and i think and yeah and i've and yeah and i've and yeah and i've hey every local church meets in a place hey every local church meets in a place hey every local church meets in a place and so and so and so it's not that way um you know there's it's not that way um you know there's it's not that way um you know there's always a there's a place for a facility always a there's a place for a facility always a there's a place for a facility to for gathering to for gathering to for gathering but we've had a way over emphasis on but we've had a way over emphasis on but we've had a way over emphasis on buildings and buildings and buildings and the bigger the building the greater the the bigger the building the greater the the bigger the building the greater the success but we're realizing through this success but we're realizing through this success but we're realizing through this time and this again this was already time and this again this was already time and this again this was already happening before kova it's small smalls happening before kova it's small smalls happening before kova it's small smalls the new big the new big the new big the big campuses are are not sustainable the big campuses are are not sustainable the big campuses are are not sustainable long-term long-term long-term uh where there's a and we're seeing this uh where there's a and we're seeing this uh where there's a and we're seeing this even now in the return even now in the return even now in the return the smaller churches and our smaller the smaller churches and our smaller the smaller churches and our smaller campuses are having a better return campuses are having a better return campuses are having a better return and a better experience when they come and a better experience when they come and a better experience when they come back then the larger campuses larger back then the larger campuses larger back then the larger campuses larger churches and facilities churches and facilities churches and facilities oh yeah yeah that's that's been i see oh yeah yeah that's that's been i see oh yeah yeah that's that's been i see the same thing through our the same thing through our the same thing through our the churches we get to serve the smaller the churches we get to serve the smaller the churches we get to serve the smaller churches is

churches is churches is income has stayed up you know engagement income has stayed up you know engagement income has stayed up you know engagement has really been there because they are a has really been there because they are a has really been there because they are a small small small smaller community so you also mentioned smaller community so you also mentioned smaller community so you also mentioned a little bit about a little bit about a little bit about pro it's been proactive in terms of pro it's been proactive in terms of pro it's been proactive in terms of church mergers what are church mergers what are church mergers what are in this season how's that playing out in this season how's that playing out in this season how's that playing out and what can we learn about and what can we learn about and what can we learn about church mergers well um church mergers well um church mergers well um as you know back in 2011 warren byrd and as you know back in 2011 warren byrd and as you know back in 2011 warren byrd and i i i co-authored a book called better co-authored a book called better co-authored a book called better together making church mergers work together making church mergers work together making church mergers work and that was really a trend that we were and that was really a trend that we were and that was really a trend that we were seeing he was a leadership network at seeing he was a leadership network at seeing he was a leadership network at the time the time the time uh i was consulting churches and seen a uh i was consulting churches and seen a uh i was consulting churches and seen a lot of mergers lot of mergers lot of mergers happen i was involved in a merger my one happen i was involved in a merger my one happen i was involved in a merger my one of my first experience with the merger of my first experience with the merger of my first experience with the merger was when i was at willow creek with one was when i was at willow creek with one was when i was at willow creek with one of our campuses of our campuses of our campuses and um uh he back and um uh he back and um uh he back then warren said jim are you seeing a then warren said jim are you seeing a then warren said jim are you seeing a lot of mergers in your consulting lot of mergers in your consulting lot of mergers in your consulting i said yeah we are i am and said so are i said yeah we are i am and said so are i said yeah we are i am and said so are we at leadership network god is doing we at leadership network god is doing we at leadership network god is doing something we didn't want to write a book something we didn't want to write a book something we didn't want to write a book about it about it about it that was nine years ago um that was nine years ago um that was nine years ago um the uh last fall our publisher called us the uh last fall our publisher called us the uh last fall our publisher called us and said hey your book has been a steady and said hey your book has been a steady and said hey your book has been a steady selling book it's but it's in hardback selling book it's but it's in hardback selling book it's but it's in hardback could we could we could we have permission to make it into a have permission to make it into a have permission to make it into a paperback and we said on one condition paperback and we said on one condition paperback and we said on one condition if you allow us to if you allow us to if you allow us to update it and do another survey of update it and do another survey of update it and do another survey of churches across the country which we did churches across the country which we did churches across the country which we did last fall last fall last fall and then so through the copen i was we and then so through the copen i was we and then so through the copen i was we were writing were writing were writing the book and so we finished the the book and so we finished the the book and so we finished the manuscript i should say manuscript i should say manuscript i should say we finished the manuscript one month we finished the manuscript one month we finished the manuscript one month before copenhagen and so before copenhagen and so before copenhagen and so uh and and then when uh when it came uh and and then when uh when it came uh and and then when uh when it came we said to the publisher can we have we said to the publisher can we have we said to the publisher can we have that book back and

that book back and that book back and uh the manuscript back it's because we uh the manuscript back it's because we uh the manuscript back it's because we want to address how covet is impacting want to address how covet is impacting want to address how covet is impacting this and we did that this and we did that this and we did that but uh they uh what we were again we're but uh they uh what we were again we're but uh they uh what we were again we're already seeing a trend already seeing a trend already seeing a trend nine years ago thirty 30 of multi-site nine years ago thirty 30 of multi-site nine years ago thirty 30 of multi-site campuses had come by way of a merger campuses had come by way of a merger campuses had come by way of a merger in our last survey last fall it's up in our last survey last fall it's up in our last survey last fall it's up it's over 40 it's over 40 it's over 40 now so multi-site churches have clearly now so multi-site churches have clearly now so multi-site churches have clearly been the beneficiary and the catalyst of been the beneficiary and the catalyst of been the beneficiary and the catalyst of this new kind of merger that's what we this new kind of merger that's what we this new kind of merger that's what we said 10 years ago but what we're also said 10 years ago but what we're also said 10 years ago but what we're also seeing now there's been a whole lot more seeing now there's been a whole lot more seeing now there's been a whole lot more applications church planters 20 applications church planters 20 applications church planters 20 of all church plants requ acquired their of all church plants requ acquired their of all church plants requ acquired their facility facility facility through a merger of an existing church through a merger of an existing church through a merger of an existing church joining them joining them joining them so the church planting movement is so the church planting movement is so the church planting movement is benefiting from mergers benefiting from mergers benefiting from mergers uh pastoral succession churches are uh pastoral succession churches are uh pastoral succession churches are saying you know maybe the pastor across saying you know maybe the pastor across saying you know maybe the pastor across town might be town might be town might be a better candidate than a pastor from a better candidate than a pastor from a better candidate than a pastor from across the country across the country across the country who doesn't know our city and all that who doesn't know our city and all that who doesn't know our city and all that and so we're seeing a lot of that and so we're seeing a lot of that and so we're seeing a lot of that denominations are now beginning to denominations are now beginning to denominations are now beginning to realize it's not a bad thing realize it's not a bad thing realize it's not a bad thing to lose to have two struggling churches to lose to have two struggling churches to lose to have two struggling churches joined together with joined together with joined together with a strong church um that's that's becomes a strong church um that's that's becomes a strong church um that's that's becomes a revitalization or a revitalization or a revitalization or rebirthing strategy so we're seeing a rebirthing strategy so we're seeing a rebirthing strategy so we're seeing a real positive mindset about mergers real positive mindset about mergers real positive mindset about mergers now more than we did 10 years ago but now more than we did 10 years ago but now more than we did 10 years ago but but it's only increasing but it's only increasing but it's only increasing and we and what we're also seeing is and we and what we're also seeing is and we and what we're also seeing is that the before covert that the before covert that the before covert it was increasing because so many of the it was increasing because so many of the it was increasing because so many of the churches in america are churches in america are churches in america are are stuck or struggling and they could are stuck or struggling and they could are stuck or struggling and they could have carried on for a while have carried on for a while have carried on for a while and def you know before kovalev but and def you know before kovalev but and def you know before kovalev but covet accelerated many of those covet accelerated many of those covet accelerated many of those right jace we talked about three kinds

right jace we talked about three kinds right jace we talked about three kinds of churches of churches of churches in across the country there's over 320 in across the country there's over 320 in across the country there's over 320 000 protestant churches 000 protestant churches 000 protestant churches uh at the unstuck group we have a survey uh at the unstuck group we have a survey uh at the unstuck group we have a survey online it's a free assessment online it's a free assessment online it's a free assessment online that you can go we've had over 25 online that you can go we've had over 25 online that you can go we've had over 25 000 churches take that assessment 000 churches take that assessment 000 churches take that assessment wow and uh and we they fall into three wow and uh and we they fall into three wow and uh and we they fall into three categories categories categories strong churches stuck churches strong churches stuck churches strong churches stuck churches struggling churches those are my struggling churches those are my struggling churches those are my categories categories categories about fifteen percent of the churches in about fifteen percent of the churches in about fifteen percent of the churches in america are in the category of strong america are in the category of strong america are in the category of strong sixty percent are stuck and another sixty percent are stuck and another sixty percent are stuck and another twenty-five percent are either life twenty-five percent are either life twenty-five percent are either life support or life preservation support or life preservation support or life preservation those are very vulnerable churches right those are very vulnerable churches right those are very vulnerable churches right now yeah and many of them i i get a call now yeah and many of them i i get a call now yeah and many of them i i get a call almost weekly now almost weekly now almost weekly now of churches that um are having the of churches that um are having the of churches that um are having the merger conversation merger conversation merger conversation just last week two churches i'm involved just last week two churches i'm involved just last week two churches i'm involved with right now with right now with right now um who have a merger knocking on their um who have a merger knocking on their um who have a merger knocking on their door door door and um so uh this one is increasingly and um so uh this one is increasingly and um so uh this one is increasingly becoming a becoming a becoming a tool in the church's toolbox yeah and it tool in the church's toolbox yeah and it tool in the church's toolbox yeah and it seems to be a good thing because god seems to be a good thing because god seems to be a good thing because god is in control of this and and guided the is in control of this and and guided the is in control of this and and guided the right way right way right way it can be a win-win yeah well in our it can be a win-win yeah well in our it can be a win-win yeah well in our survey we did a recent survey survey we did a recent survey survey we did a recent survey we asked the question uh would you do we asked the question uh would you do we asked the question uh would you do this survey would you do a merger again this survey would you do a merger again this survey would you do a merger again going what you went through going what you went through going what you went through 82 said yes yes 82 said yes yes 82 said yes yes and uh and the the new kind of mergers and uh and the the new kind of mergers and uh and the the new kind of mergers isn't a lose-lose isn't a lose-lose isn't a lose-lose or a win lose it's a win-win yeah and uh or a win lose it's a win-win yeah and uh or a win lose it's a win-win yeah and uh where a church that's in decline is where a church that's in decline is where a church that's in decline is struggling has a chance to have a second struggling has a chance to have a second struggling has a chance to have a second chapter a new life or rebirth chapter a new life or rebirth chapter a new life or rebirth or who's just stuck and they get a

or who's just stuck and they get a or who's just stuck and they get a revitalization revitalization revitalization meanwhile strong growing churches this meanwhile strong growing churches this meanwhile strong growing churches this is a way for them to is a way for them to is a way for them to advance their mission reach more people advance their mission reach more people advance their mission reach more people solve some space problems so it's uh solve some space problems so it's uh solve some space problems so it's uh when when those two parties see the when when those two parties see the when when those two parties see the win-win win-win win-win this it's a good outcome yeah it is it's this it's a good outcome yeah it is it's this it's a good outcome yeah it is it's a good it's a good legacy for those a good it's a good legacy for those a good it's a good legacy for those charter members or those people that charter members or those people that charter members or those people that have been around for a long time to see have been around for a long time to see have been around for a long time to see the next wave come in and the next wave come in and the next wave come in and you know it's all about pointing people you know it's all about pointing people you know it's all about pointing people to jesus so to jesus so to jesus so your church sun valley had a very great your church sun valley had a very great your church sun valley had a very great merger experience uh merger experience uh merger experience uh outcome uh several years ago that i was outcome uh several years ago that i was outcome uh several years ago that i was able to work with them on and able to work with them on and able to work with them on and it just has catapulted them so how many it just has catapulted them so how many it just has catapulted them so how many locations do you have now five six yes locations do you have now five six yes locations do you have now five six yes and they're just south gilbert is and they're just south gilbert is and they're just south gilbert is opening opening opening soon uh it was a good example that was soon uh it was a good example that was soon uh it was a good example that was the it was a mega church of the 70s or the it was a mega church of the 70s or the it was a mega church of the 70s or 80s 80s 80s that was really one of the leading that was really one of the leading that was really one of the leading churches in phoenix area years ago churches in phoenix area years ago churches in phoenix area years ago and but had a merger yeah declined and and but had a merger yeah declined and and but had a merger yeah declined and joined with sun valley and joined with sun valley and joined with sun valley and now it's a flourishing campus again yep now it's a flourishing campus again yep now it's a flourishing campus again yep yep yep yep exactly we're seeing that multiplace exactly we're seeing that multiplace exactly we're seeing that multiplace multiply more across the country and multiply more across the country and multiply more across the country and even more so now because of cold even more so now because of cold even more so now because of cold yeah i bet hey bart blair here i'm the yeah i bet hey bart blair here i'm the yeah i bet hey bart blair here i'm the producer of missional marketing's church producer of missional marketing's church producer of missional marketing's church growth interviews podcast growth interviews podcast growth interviews podcast thanks so much for tuning in additional thanks so much for tuning in additional thanks so much for tuning in additional marketing we're passionate about helping marketing we're passionate about helping marketing we're passionate about helping churches reach more people for jesus churches reach more people for jesus churches reach more people for jesus online online online and one of the ways that we do that is and one of the ways that we do that is and one of the ways that we do that is by helping churches acquire more new by helping churches acquire more new by helping churches acquire more new visitors to their website visitors to their website visitors to their website utilizing the google ad grant google utilizing the google ad grant google utilizing the google ad grant google offers qualifying non-profits including offers qualifying non-profits including offers qualifying non-profits including churches

churches churches up to ten thousand dollars a month in up to ten thousand dollars a month in up to ten thousand dollars a month in advertising that means that you as a advertising that means that you as a advertising that means that you as a church could be using google church could be using google church could be using google as one of your primary digital outreach as one of your primary digital outreach as one of your primary digital outreach strategies to communicate the gospel strategies to communicate the gospel strategies to communicate the gospel and reach more people in your community and reach more people in your community and reach more people in your community if you'd like to learn more visit our if you'd like to learn more visit our if you'd like to learn more visit our website website website admissionalmarketing.com and click the admissionalmarketing.com and click the admissionalmarketing.com and click the link at the top of the page that says link at the top of the page that says link at the top of the page that says google grants google grants google grants we'd love an opportunity to partner with we'd love an opportunity to partner with we'd love an opportunity to partner with you in your mission to build god's you in your mission to build god's you in your mission to build god's kingdom here on earth kingdom here on earth kingdom here on earth well thanks again for listening to our well thanks again for listening to our well thanks again for listening to our podcast and now back to the show podcast and now back to the show podcast and now back to the show well so what are so let's turn the well so what are so let's turn the well so what are so let's turn the corner what are the things that are that corner what are the things that are that corner what are the things that are that are kind of concerning to you from this are kind of concerning to you from this are kind of concerning to you from this past year that you're seeing going this past year that you're seeing going this past year that you're seeing going this isn't good isn't good isn't good well i think we're all saddened again well i think we're all saddened again well i think we're all saddened again all these things were happening before all these things were happening before all these things were happening before covert but covert but covert but the increasing political politicalizing the increasing political politicalizing the increasing political politicalizing politicizing uh sorry um politicizing uh sorry um politicizing uh sorry um of the of of congregations of church of the of of congregations of church of the of of congregations of church people people people uh the inability to for church local uh the inability to for church local uh the inability to for church local church leaders to really embrace that we church leaders to really embrace that we church leaders to really embrace that we have moved into a post have moved into a post have moved into a post christian culture that culture no longer christian culture that culture no longer christian culture that culture no longer is supporting artificial church is supporting artificial church is supporting artificial church attendance as it has for 200 plus years attendance as it has for 200 plus years attendance as it has for 200 plus years yeah and that's been a hard pill to yeah and that's been a hard pill to yeah and that's been a hard pill to swallow for a lot of church leaders swallow for a lot of church leaders swallow for a lot of church leaders and that's why 80 percent of the and that's why 80 percent of the and that's why 80 percent of the churches in america are stuck churches in america are stuck churches in america are stuck are struggling or in decline they're are struggling or in decline they're are struggling or in decline they're still stuck in a culture that doesn't still stuck in a culture that doesn't still stuck in a culture that doesn't exist anymore exist anymore exist anymore and so i think these are some of the and so i think these are some of the and so i think these are some of the concerns i i think that we have we've concerns i i think that we have we've concerns i i think that we have we've had an over addiction to had an over addiction to had an over addiction to church buildings which i think covet is church buildings which i think covet is church buildings which i think covet is gonna is gonna is gonna is beginning to break that addiction beginning to break that addiction beginning to break that addiction recognizing that buildings are always recognizing that buildings are always recognizing that buildings are always people people people they're they're a tool they're not they're they're a tool they're not they're they're a tool they're not they're not the goal they're just a

they're not the goal they're just a they're not the goal they're just a means to the means to the means to the an end yeah that's i an end yeah that's i an end yeah that's i you you that over addiction to church you you that over addiction to church you you that over addiction to church buildings that's uh buildings that's uh buildings that's uh that's a new phrase for me and something that's a new phrase for me and something that's a new phrase for me and something that really just it's like that really just it's like that really just it's like cuts you deep a little bit because it's cuts you deep a little bit because it's cuts you deep a little bit because it's you know what what's what are we trying you know what what's what are we trying you know what what's what are we trying to do here to do here to do here or is it all about the building or is it or is it all about the building or is it or is it all about the building or is it really truly about relationship you know really truly about relationship you know really truly about relationship you know and so and so and so i that one that hits hope for me i'm i that one that hits hope for me i'm i that one that hits hope for me i'm like huh like huh like huh i need to chew on that one for a little i need to chew on that one for a little i need to chew on that one for a little bit the week before covid bit the week before covid bit the week before covid hit i was in a church in colorado they hit i was in a church in colorado they hit i was in a church in colorado they asked me to come talk to them about asked me to come talk to them about asked me to come talk to them about multi-site multi-site multi-site uh they had been in a school for seven uh they had been in a school for seven uh they had been in a school for seven years and grown to 500 people years and grown to 500 people years and grown to 500 people they had bought a piece of land and they had bought a piece of land and they had bought a piece of land and built a building for six million dollars built a building for six million dollars built a building for six million dollars right off the freeway between denver and right off the freeway between denver and right off the freeway between denver and colorado springs colorado springs colorado springs beautiful facility and it was 14 000 beautiful facility and it was 14 000 beautiful facility and it was 14 000 square feet square feet square feet on tooth levels 350 seats on tooth levels 350 seats on tooth levels 350 seats was all that their seating was and they was all that their seating was and they was all that their seating was and they had grown in had grown in had grown in three years from 500 to 2000 people with three years from 500 to 2000 people with three years from 500 to 2000 people with five services on sunday five services on sunday five services on sunday and uh and when i was in their building and uh and when i was in their building and uh and when i was in their building they were all apologizing for how small they were all apologizing for how small they were all apologizing for how small the building was i said no this is the the building was i said no this is the the building was i said no this is the new normal this is new normal this is new normal this is this is the picture of the future you're this is the picture of the future you're this is the picture of the future you're proving you don't have to be a mega proving you don't have to be a mega proving you don't have to be a mega campus to be a mega church campus to be a mega church campus to be a mega church and uh and um this is the way of the and uh and um this is the way of the and uh and um this is the way of the future future future but why did you only build 350 seats and but why did you only build 350 seats and but why did you only build 350 seats and they said that's all the county would they said that's all the county would they said that's all the county would allow us to do allow us to do allow us to do and so uh they recognize hey we've and so uh they recognize hey we've and so uh they recognize hey we've maximized this place now and so we'd maximized this place now and so we'd maximized this place now and so we'd like to do this again somewhere else like to do this again somewhere else like to do this again somewhere else another another another location so that's what we were working location so that's what we were working location so that's what we were working on when coveted

on when coveted on when coveted but that to me was a good example of uh but that to me was a good example of uh but that to me was a good example of uh small as the new big with multiple small as the new big with multiple small as the new big with multiple services and with a multi-site services and with a multi-site services and with a multi-site mindset you don't need big buildings mindset you don't need big buildings mindset you don't need big buildings yeah exactly and an online mindset too yeah exactly and an online mindset too yeah exactly and an online mindset too right right right to engage people and and move them into to engage people and and move them into to engage people and and move them into that yeah that's interesting that yeah that's interesting that yeah that's interesting huh well so the uh what are you what are huh well so the uh what are you what are huh well so the uh what are you what are you advising pastors you advising pastors you advising pastors and church leaders as we look into we're and church leaders as we look into we're and church leaders as we look into we're in 2021 in 2021 in 2021 um and and we're kind of lord willing um and and we're kind of lord willing um and and we're kind of lord willing coming out of coming out of coming out of the coveter but it's not it's not going the coveter but it's not it's not going the coveter but it's not it's not going to go back to to go back to to go back to pre-cover days so you know what do you pre-cover days so you know what do you pre-cover days so you know what do you what are you sharing what are you sharing what are you sharing well jason one of the things i've always well jason one of the things i've always well jason one of the things i've always been saying is what you guys do been saying is what you guys do been saying is what you guys do uh i always say to churches that are uh i always say to churches that are uh i always say to churches that are thinking about multi-sided my consulting thinking about multi-sided my consulting thinking about multi-sided my consulting the more clarity you have about who you the more clarity you have about who you the more clarity you have about who you are as a church are as a church are as a church and how you do church the the more and how you do church the the more and how you do church the the more effective effective effective you will be as a multi-site church so you will be as a multi-site church so you will be as a multi-site church so clear clear clear get real clarity on your mission get real clarity on your mission get real clarity on your mission your vision your discipleship pathway your vision your discipleship pathway your vision your discipleship pathway what are you inviting people what are you inviting people what are you inviting people to how are you inviting them to follow to how are you inviting them to follow to how are you inviting them to follow jesus jesus jesus you know what's the pathway you're you know what's the pathway you're you know what's the pathway you're inviting them to follow uh what is your inviting them to follow uh what is your inviting them to follow uh what is your what are your values what are your values what are your values what's your strategy whether it's what's your strategy whether it's what's your strategy whether it's multi-siding or church planting or you multi-siding or church planting or you multi-siding or church planting or you know know know whatever what's your philosophy of whatever what's your philosophy of whatever what's your philosophy of ministry get cleared if you if you don't ministry get cleared if you if you don't ministry get cleared if you if you don't have clarity on that then have clarity on that then have clarity on that then that's the first place to start and then that's the first place to start and then that's the first place to start and then once you do get clarity on your mission once you do get clarity on your mission once you do get clarity on your mission vision strategy vision strategy vision strategy uh then just execute against that and uh then just execute against that and uh then just execute against that and stay focused on that

stay focused on that stay focused on that uh you know it's as you know today it's uh you know it's as you know today it's uh you know it's as you know today it's more about engaging people than just more about engaging people than just more about engaging people than just attendance attendance is one measurement attendance attendance is one measurement attendance attendance is one measurement of engagement of engagement of engagement but it's how many people do we have in but it's how many people do we have in but it's how many people do we have in small groups how many people are serving small groups how many people are serving small groups how many people are serving inside and outside the church in the inside and outside the church in the inside and outside the church in the community community community um what are uh are people giving you um what are uh are people giving you um what are uh are people giving you know their know their know their what is the next steps that you're what is the next steps that you're what is the next steps that you're inviting them to take inviting them to take inviting them to take that you can measure these are all the that you can measure these are all the that you can measure these are all the ways of ways of ways of tracking engagement i mean you're online tracking engagement i mean you're online tracking engagement i mean you're online how many are how many are how many are on site they're all parts of that on site they're all parts of that on site they're all parts of that yeah i i often uh i mean we're kind of yeah i i often uh i mean we're kind of yeah i i often uh i mean we're kind of in the lane of in the lane of in the lane of of the digital space and i i say this of the digital space and i i say this of the digital space and i i say this every single time i talk to a church i'm every single time i talk to a church i'm every single time i talk to a church i'm like content is king like content is king like content is king not the king we know who he is but not the king we know who he is but not the king we know who he is but content is king and you content is king and you content is king and you are creating content but the way you're are creating content but the way you're are creating content but the way you're distributing that content online distributing that content online distributing that content online is not very good you've got to learn how is not very good you've got to learn how is not very good you've got to learn how google works and and use those google works and and use those google works and and use those to your advantage because there are to your advantage because there are to your advantage because there are people out there that people out there that people out there that that want that content that need that that want that content that need that that want that content that need that content but they don't even know you content but they don't even know you content but they don't even know you produce it produce it produce it and you said something where if content and you said something where if content and you said something where if content is is is is king then connection is queen is king then connection is queen is king then connection is queen because you're absolutely right you can because you're absolutely right you can because you're absolutely right you can use content use content use content to reach and start engagement or even to reach and start engagement or even to reach and start engagement or even start that discipleship start that discipleship start that discipleship but if you don't have a strategy for but if you don't have a strategy for but if you don't have a strategy for engagement engagement engagement forget it yeah we like to say content is forget it yeah we like to say content is forget it yeah we like to say content is king but there's a lot of good content king but there's a lot of good content king but there's a lot of good content out there out there out there and better than most of us uh and better than most of us uh and better than most of us uh can produce ourselves although we should

can produce ourselves although we should can produce ourselves although we should work on doing that well work on doing that well work on doing that well but uh nobody can out local the local but uh nobody can out local the local but uh nobody can out local the local church and so where where we had the church and so where where we had the church and so where where we had the chance to chance to chance to we have the home field advantage the we have the home field advantage the we have the home field advantage the local church does and connecting people local church does and connecting people local church does and connecting people to one another to one another to one another and to each other and building community and to each other and building community and to each other and building community with those people with those people with those people is really the difference maker for local is really the difference maker for local is really the difference maker for local churches that's what's going to bring churches that's what's going to bring churches that's what's going to bring people back to your churches is what's people back to your churches is what's people back to your churches is what's going to bring them into your church going to bring them into your church going to bring them into your church your local church your local church your local church and it's not just the uh the content and it's not just the uh the content and it's not just the uh the content well delivered though we want to do that well delivered though we want to do that well delivered though we want to do that as as best we can as well as as best we can as well as as best we can as well but um but that's it's more than just but um but that's it's more than just but um but that's it's more than just that that that it is yeah and i i i'm i totally agree it is yeah and i i i'm i totally agree it is yeah and i i i'm i totally agree with you because with you because with you because you know we we try to educate and say you know we we try to educate and say you know we we try to educate and say that you've you've gotta that you've you've gotta that you've you've gotta capitalize on your content because capitalize on your content because capitalize on your content because people around your community people around your community people around your community can know who you are and as you've said can know who you are and as you've said can know who you are and as you've said this this this i believe as well the the local church i believe as well the the local church i believe as well the the local church is the hope of the world is the hope of the world is the hope of the world um and so it's not about absorbing um and so it's not about absorbing um and so it's not about absorbing content from a church that's content from a church that's content from a church that's three states to the left although that's three states to the left although that's three states to the left although that's not a bad thing not a bad thing not a bad thing i think driving people to a local i think driving people to a local i think driving people to a local community where they can community where they can community where they can see people and connect with people see people and connect with people see people and connect with people uh one-on-one and lean on them uh one-on-one and lean on them uh one-on-one and lean on them that's and to me i think that's that's and to me i think that's that's and to me i think that's attractive to anybody people that are attractive to anybody people that are attractive to anybody people that are far from god or far from god or far from god or they've been a christian their whole they've been a christian their whole they've been a christian their whole life i think you know before covid we life i think you know before covid we life i think you know before covid we were seeing about 1.7 were seeing about 1.7 were seeing about 1.7 people would attend regular churchgoers people would attend regular churchgoers people would attend regular churchgoers would attend 1.7 times a month basically would attend 1.7 times a month basically would attend 1.7 times a month basically twice a month twice a month twice a month back back in the back when i started back back in the back when i started back back in the back when i started many decades ago many decades ago many decades ago when people committed to their local

when people committed to their local when people committed to their local church in the last century uh church in the last century uh church in the last century uh they were there every week you know they were there every week you know they were there every week you know unless they were traveling or sick or unless they were traveling or sick or unless they were traveling or sick or whatever whatever whatever and we didn't have to really you know and we didn't have to really you know and we didn't have to really you know stress that you should be there it just stress that you should be there it just stress that you should be there it just this was it was it was the this was it was it was the this was it was it was the our mind should do that what you do and our mind should do that what you do and our mind should do that what you do and then uh then uh then uh today we know about twice a month now i today we know about twice a month now i today we know about twice a month now i think we may even see less think we may even see less think we may even see less maybe once a month you know as we get maybe once a month you know as we get maybe once a month you know as we get back to normal from those same people back to normal from those same people back to normal from those same people but but but i do think before people came to church i do think before people came to church i do think before people came to church because they felt like well i need to go because they felt like well i need to go because they felt like well i need to go i should go i need to go occasionally or i should go i need to go occasionally or i should go i need to go occasionally or periodically or regular as often as i periodically or regular as often as i periodically or regular as often as i can can can out of more i need to do that now uh out of more i need to do that now uh out of more i need to do that now uh out of obligation but now i think they out of obligation but now i think they out of obligation but now i think they recognize because of recognize because of recognize because of covet and the isolation that we covet and the isolation that we covet and the isolation that we experience you know i need it not just experience you know i need it not just experience you know i need it not just for the content not just for the sermons for the content not just for the sermons for the content not just for the sermons not just to worship corporately i need not just to worship corporately i need not just to worship corporately i need that that that human touch with people that i share human touch with people that i share human touch with people that i share faith with faith with faith with and so i think there'll be a more and so i think there'll be a more and so i think there'll be a more emotional commitment emotional commitment emotional commitment even whether it may not translate into even whether it may not translate into even whether it may not translate into increased attendance increased attendance increased attendance but i do think there's going to be a but i do think there's going to be a but i do think there's going to be a stronger emotional bond to a local stronger emotional bond to a local stronger emotional bond to a local church and the value of that church and the value of that church and the value of that in these times to have a faith community in these times to have a faith community in these times to have a faith community that you are associated with that you are associated with that you are associated with and connected to that's interesting yeah and connected to that's interesting yeah and connected to that's interesting yeah because i was because i was because i was last year just trying to trying to last year just trying to trying to last year just trying to trying to help churches understand hey this is i help churches understand hey this is i help churches understand hey this is i think this could be a good thing right think this could be a good thing right think this could be a good thing right because because because you if it was 1.7 times a month you if it was 1.7 times a month you if it was 1.7 times a month you want to go back to that or do you you want to go back to that or do you you want to go back to that or do you want to maybe go to where they come once want to maybe go to where they come once want to maybe go to where they come once a month but they're actually going to a month but they're actually going to a month but they're actually going to watch online watch online watch online a second or a third time so maybe you're

a second or a third time so maybe you're a second or a third time so maybe you're getting two or three weekends instead of getting two or three weekends instead of getting two or three weekends instead of 1.7 1.7 1.7 isn't that better even if they're online isn't that better even if they're online isn't that better even if they're online half of it and in person the other half half of it and in person the other half half of it and in person the other half you know to me it's like you know to me it's like you know to me it's like that's a good thing you know you're that's a good thing you know you're that's a good thing you know you're getting absolutely more engagement getting absolutely more engagement getting absolutely more engagement yeah well so you've now in in yeah well so you've now in in yeah well so you've now in in several decades four decades now you've several decades four decades now you've several decades four decades now you've invested uh invested uh invested uh into the local church what keeps you into the local church what keeps you into the local church what keeps you motivated to keep doing this motivated to keep doing this motivated to keep doing this well i as you mentioned earlier i do well i as you mentioned earlier i do well i as you mentioned earlier i do believe the local church is the hope of believe the local church is the hope of believe the local church is the hope of the world the world the world and i think especially in these times and i think especially in these times and i think especially in these times jason we needed a reset jason we needed a reset jason we needed a reset as the church in america and i think as the church in america and i think as the church in america and i think this last season has this last season has this last season has been that big reset but really it's hard been that big reset but really it's hard been that big reset but really it's hard it's the church's it's the church's it's the church's finest hour is in times of crisis finest hour is in times of crisis finest hour is in times of crisis uh this is when the compassion and the uh this is when the compassion and the uh this is when the compassion and the hope and the message of jesus can shine hope and the message of jesus can shine hope and the message of jesus can shine the brightest the brightest the brightest sometimes we get a little haughty and sometimes we get a little haughty and sometimes we get a little haughty and you know you know you know we confuse culture with uh our we confuse culture with uh our we confuse culture with uh our american culture with with church american culture with with church american culture with with church culture and i think that's the same and culture and i think that's the same and culture and i think that's the same and we realize you know i love my country i we realize you know i love my country i we realize you know i love my country i have two i have a son and a son-in-law have two i have a son and a son-in-law have two i have a son and a son-in-law both in the military both in the military both in the military special forces and a fighter pilot and special forces and a fighter pilot and special forces and a fighter pilot and so i so i so i i love our country i grew up in the i love our country i grew up in the i love our country i grew up in the military i serve military communities military i serve military communities military i serve military communities but um as a pastor over the years but but um as a pastor over the years but but um as a pastor over the years but you know what uh you know what uh you know what uh we are citizens of heaven first and we we are citizens of heaven first and we we are citizens of heaven first and we really are called to be an ambassador really are called to be an ambassador really are called to be an ambassador to the greatest nation in the world in to the greatest nation in the world in to the greatest nation in the world in the in the world the united states of the in the world the united states of the in the world the united states of america america america and uh but that's our where our and uh but that's our where our and uh but that's our where our citizenship is and where to be citizenship is and where to be citizenship is and where to be his ambassadors and uh bring his message

his ambassadors and uh bring his message his ambassadors and uh bring his message to uh to our nation that we live in to uh to our nation that we live in to uh to our nation that we live in and so uh i just think these are the the and so uh i just think these are the the and so uh i just think these are the the greatest opportunities for us and the greatest opportunities for us and the greatest opportunities for us and the churches that really are churches that really are churches that really are seeing the opportunity to seize are seeing the opportunity to seize are seeing the opportunity to seize are going to be the ones who going to be the ones who going to be the ones who lead us in the next decade lead us in the next decade lead us in the next decade yeah all said yeah so yeah all said yeah so yeah all said yeah so like i said the other thing i just never like i said the other thing i just never like i said the other thing i just never recovered fully from recovered fully from recovered fully from my own personal redemption and my own personal redemption and my own personal redemption and forgiveness in christ and forgiveness in christ and forgiveness in christ and uh and i've just been a pastor for uh and i've just been a pastor for uh and i've just been a pastor for nearly five decades now or starting my nearly five decades now or starting my nearly five decades now or starting my fifth decade fifth decade fifth decade i i've never gotten over seeing the i i've never gotten over seeing the i i've never gotten over seeing the transformation that occurs in people's transformation that occurs in people's transformation that occurs in people's lives when they really lives when they really lives when they really uh give their life to christ when they uh give their life to christ when they uh give their life to christ when they come to faith come to faith come to faith uh i just uh haven't gotten over that uh i just uh haven't gotten over that uh i just uh haven't gotten over that yet and so yet and so yet and so and i don't want to so i i do know we and i don't want to so i i do know we and i don't want to so i i do know we have the most powerful message have the most powerful message have the most powerful message uh it is worth giving our life to and so uh it is worth giving our life to and so uh it is worth giving our life to and so i am i am i am very humbled and honored that god has very humbled and honored that god has very humbled and honored that god has allowed me to serve this allowed me to serve this allowed me to serve this this whole long well it's it's really this whole long well it's it's really this whole long well it's it's really neat to see how he's used you neat to see how he's used you neat to see how he's used you uh for his purposes and and affecting uh for his purposes and and affecting uh for his purposes and and affecting you know not only pastoring but you know not only pastoring but you know not only pastoring but affecting so many churches around the affecting so many churches around the affecting so many churches around the country that benefited from country that benefited from country that benefited from what you've learned and you've passed on what you've learned and you've passed on what you've learned and you've passed on you know so that's that's you know so that's that's you know so that's that's that's pretty cool so where do you get that's pretty cool so where do you get that's pretty cool so where do you get your your your inspiration from like who are people inspiration from like who are people inspiration from like who are people that you kind of tune into that you kind of tune into that you kind of tune into that uh you're you're reading about that uh you're you're reading about that uh you're you're reading about these days or so you can absorb and these days or so you can absorb and these days or so you can absorb and pass that on i think that you of course pass that on i think that you of course pass that on i think that you of course you asked me this you asked me this you asked me this question earlier i had a time to think question earlier i had a time to think question earlier i had a time to think about it but i think that there's three

about it but i think that there's three about it but i think that there's three people that have been the most people that have been the most people that have been the most influential on me in these days one is influential on me in these days one is influential on me in these days one is my good friend and co-author warren byrd my good friend and co-author warren byrd my good friend and co-author warren byrd who i've known for who i've known for who i've known for 20-plus years we actually went to the 20-plus years we actually went to the 20-plus years we actually went to the same church at different times as same church at different times as same church at different times as college kids in atlanta we were we were college kids in atlanta we were we were college kids in atlanta we were we were first baptist church atlanta where first baptist church atlanta where first baptist church atlanta where charles stanley was my pastor and i was charles stanley was my pastor and i was charles stanley was my pastor and i was about five years older than about five years older than about five years older than warren and he was running around with warren and he was running around with warren and he was running around with this young guy called andy stanley this young guy called andy stanley this young guy called andy stanley who's that and so uh but who's that and so uh but who's that and so uh but years later we you know made the years later we you know made the years later we you know made the connection but um connection but um connection but um warren is probably knows more about the warren is probably knows more about the warren is probably knows more about the church church church than any other person on the planet he than any other person on the planet he than any other person on the planet he has a prof he has a professional has a prof he has a professional has a prof he has a professional statistician phd in statistics statistician phd in statistics statistician phd in statistics uh and has a photographic memory of the uh and has a photographic memory of the uh and has a photographic memory of the facts in his head facts in his head facts in his head he can spout about his co-authored 35 he can spout about his co-authored 35 he can spout about his co-authored 35 books uh on the church you know on all books uh on the church you know on all books uh on the church you know on all aspects of the church aspects of the church aspects of the church and so i just have a great love and and so i just have a great love and and so i just have a great love and respect for warren and respect for warren and respect for warren and i drink deeply from uh his knowledge i drink deeply from uh his knowledge i drink deeply from uh his knowledge tony morgan as i mentioned is my uh is tony morgan as i mentioned is my uh is tony morgan as i mentioned is my uh is my my my my boss now is part of the unstuck group my boss now is part of the unstuck group my boss now is part of the unstuck group that i joined that i joined that i joined with merged my company multi-site with merged my company multi-site with merged my company multi-site solutions two years ago solutions two years ago solutions two years ago uh with him but we had for years we were uh with him but we had for years we were uh with him but we had for years we were complimenting each other and bringing complimenting each other and bringing complimenting each other and bringing i would refer people to him that needed i would refer people to him that needed i would refer people to him that needed to get healthy and he'd prefer healthy to get healthy and he'd prefer healthy to get healthy and he'd prefer healthy churches that wanted a multi-site to be churches that wanted a multi-site to be churches that wanted a multi-site to be so finally he said why don't you why so finally he said why don't you why so finally he said why don't you why don't we just join together because don't we just join together because don't we just join together because we're we're we're we're that kind of space and so we did we're that kind of space and so we did we're that kind of space and so we did that two years ago but

that two years ago but that two years ago but i i've always loved following tony i i've always loved following tony i i've always loved following tony because because because uh he he says what i'm thinking but he uh he he says what i'm thinking but he uh he he says what i'm thinking but he says it better says it better says it better he's a practical down-to-earth he's a practical down-to-earth he's a practical down-to-earth practitioner no-nonsense guy who is practitioner no-nonsense guy who is practitioner no-nonsense guy who is crazy smart crazy smart crazy smart and he knows what makes churches healthy and he knows what makes churches healthy and he knows what makes churches healthy and and knows how to and and knows how to and and knows how to help them get healthy and so i just i'm help them get healthy and so i just i'm help them get healthy and so i just i'm just thrilled to be a part of the team just thrilled to be a part of the team just thrilled to be a part of the team there there there and it's and being a part of tony's and it's and being a part of tony's and it's and being a part of tony's world world world and then i think um you know a few years and then i think um you know a few years and then i think um you know a few years ago this guy carrie newhauf came on the ago this guy carrie newhauf came on the ago this guy carrie newhauf came on the scene scene scene and the guy is just incredibly uh and the guy is just incredibly uh and the guy is just incredibly uh prolific first of all i don't know how prolific first of all i don't know how prolific first of all i don't know how he puts out so much content and it's he puts out so much content and it's he puts out so much content and it's and it's it's always good it's and it's it's always good it's and it's it's always good it's very few people can be deliver such a very few people can be deliver such a very few people can be deliver such a high level consistently and i just find high level consistently and i just find high level consistently and i just find that that that um i've had a chance to be interviewed um i've had a chance to be interviewed um i've had a chance to be interviewed by him a couple times now with some of by him a couple times now with some of by him a couple times now with some of the things i've been doing the things i've been doing the things i've been doing and he is an incredible interviewer and he is an incredible interviewer and he is an incredible interviewer uh very insightful um uh very insightful um uh very insightful um as well i think every all across the as well i think every all across the as well i think every all across the country when i talk to churches they'll country when i talk to churches they'll country when i talk to churches they'll ask me well what does carrie say about ask me well what does carrie say about ask me well what does carrie say about this this this or what's the latest thing from kerry or what's the latest thing from kerry or what's the latest thing from kerry you know and so i he has that you know and so i he has that you know and so i he has that god has really gifted him and using him god has really gifted him and using him god has really gifted him and using him in a tremendous way to in a tremendous way to in a tremendous way to help churches think better think you help churches think better think you help churches think better think you know know know do leadership better uh be more do leadership better uh be more do leadership better uh be more effective as a effective as a effective as a little church so those are my three kind little church so those are my three kind little church so those are my three kind of sources that i draw i like to of sources that i draw i like to of sources that i draw i like to drink from these days yeah pretty good drink from these days yeah pretty good drink from these days yeah pretty good sources so sources so sources so and if if you're not connected to those and if if you're not connected to those and if if you're not connected to those those three

those three those three men do so because they uh i also men do so because they uh i also men do so because they uh i also am well i listen more to carrie of am well i listen more to carrie of am well i listen more to carrie of course tony course tony course tony uh not as much with warren but uh uh uh not as much with warren but uh uh uh not as much with warren but uh uh thanks for that because thanks for that because thanks for that because that's inspirational for us to be able that's inspirational for us to be able that's inspirational for us to be able to i wish kerry wouldn't put out so much to i wish kerry wouldn't put out so much to i wish kerry wouldn't put out so much stuff because i always think well i stuff because i always think well i stuff because i always think well i don't have to don't have to don't have to watch this or hear this or read this and watch this or hear this or read this and watch this or hear this or read this and then i start reading i think i got to then i start reading i think i got to then i start reading i think i got to read this now i got to listen to this read this now i got to listen to this read this now i got to listen to this it never disappoints never this step it never disappoints never this step it never disappoints never this step well so if if people have questions on well so if if people have questions on well so if if people have questions on multi-site how to get unstuck multi-site how to get unstuck multi-site how to get unstuck or just have general like just want to or just have general like just want to or just have general like just want to pick your brain pick your brain pick your brain what's the best way to get a hold of you what's the best way to get a hold of you what's the best way to get a hold of you well you can go to the unstuck group well you can go to the unstuck group well you can go to the unstuck group dot com website or just email me jim at dot com website or just email me jim at dot com website or just email me jim at the unstuck the unstuck the unstuck group.com okay yeah group.com okay yeah group.com okay yeah and uh you know to me uh just kind of and uh you know to me uh just kind of and uh you know to me uh just kind of being a being a being a guy on the sidelines watching you and guy on the sidelines watching you and guy on the sidelines watching you and your ministry over over the years and your ministry over over the years and your ministry over over the years and being a part of a central christian being a part of a central christian being a part of a central christian church back in the day and church back in the day and church back in the day and and where you stepped in and helped us and where you stepped in and helped us and where you stepped in and helped us figure out how to do figure out how to do figure out how to do church on two campuses which was like church on two campuses which was like church on two campuses which was like how do you do that how do you do that how do you do that you know uh it was it was very you know uh it was it was very you know uh it was it was very refreshing so i refreshing so i refreshing so i appreciate your ministry and and um appreciate your ministry and and um appreciate your ministry and and um and thanks for your time and your and thanks for your time and your and thanks for your time and your insight to this it's uh insight to this it's uh insight to this it's uh there's a couple of key phrases that are there's a couple of key phrases that are there's a couple of key phrases that are sticking in my mind that i think we can sticking in my mind that i think we can sticking in my mind that i think we can take away from and and understand that take away from and and understand that take away from and and understand that we are in a different era we are in a different era we are in a different era and those that either adapt or you die

and those that either adapt or you die and those that either adapt or you die and um you know let's let's adapt and um you know let's let's adapt and um you know let's let's adapt well jason i appreciate the ministry well jason i appreciate the ministry well jason i appreciate the ministry that your organization that your organization that your organization is helping so many churches get their is helping so many churches get their is helping so many churches get their message out and and message out and and message out and and i love the fact that you have missional i love the fact that you have missional i love the fact that you have missional in your name missional marketing because in your name missional marketing because in your name missional marketing because that's really that's really that's really missional to me is just living like a missional to me is just living like a missional to me is just living like a missionary to a foreign culture and we missionary to a foreign culture and we missionary to a foreign culture and we are in a secular culture that we need to are in a secular culture that we need to are in a secular culture that we need to learn to live like missionaries learn to live like missionaries learn to live like missionaries and um speak the language of babylon i and um speak the language of babylon i and um speak the language of babylon i like to say like to say like to say and so that we can you know make more and so that we can you know make more and so that we can you know make more disciples disciples disciples um and so i appreciate the work that um and so i appreciate the work that um and so i appreciate the work that your you and your company does to help your you and your company does to help your you and your company does to help churches do that better churches do that better churches do that better thank you appreciate that all right jim thank you appreciate that all right jim thank you appreciate that all right jim you take care and god bless and stay you take care and god bless and stay you take care and god bless and stay safe safe safe thank you so much jason well jim thank you so much jason well jim thank you so much jason well jim a huge thank you uh obviously as we a huge thank you uh obviously as we a huge thank you uh obviously as we learned learned learned if your church is struggling you guys if your church is struggling you guys if your church is struggling you guys are stuck are stuck are stuck you don't really know what to do you're you don't really know what to do you're you don't really know what to do you're thinking about a merger or thinking about a merger or thinking about a merger or that's entering your mind you feel like that's entering your mind you feel like that's entering your mind you feel like god's leading you that way or god's leading you that way or god's leading you that way or or maybe you're just you're kind of or maybe you're just you're kind of or maybe you're just you're kind of hanging by a thread hanging by a thread hanging by a thread reach out to jim connect with jim and he reach out to jim connect with jim and he reach out to jim connect with jim and he can help you can help you can help you and as we learn you have to adapt or die and as we learn you have to adapt or die and as we learn you have to adapt or die you know it's just you don't want to you know it's just you don't want to you know it's just you don't want to risk that and so risk that and so risk that and so making some changes these days because making some changes these days because making some changes these days because you are online and seeing yourself as a you are online and seeing yourself as a you are online and seeing yourself as a multi-campus church because you have a multi-campus church because you have a multi-campus church because you have a physical location physical location physical location and an opportunity for an online and an opportunity for an online and an opportunity for an online ministry ministry ministry really gives you great advantages to really gives you great advantages to really gives you great advantages to reach more people in your community reach more people in your community reach more people in your community to connect with your local church and so

to connect with your local church and so to connect with your local church and so jim we appreciate your insight and your jim we appreciate your insight and your jim we appreciate your insight and your wisdom wisdom wisdom it just goes back to it just goes back to it just goes back to knowing that content is so important and knowing that content is so important and knowing that content is so important and being able to add content to your being able to add content to your being able to add content to your website website website daily i mean you are creating content so daily i mean you are creating content so daily i mean you are creating content so just having a strategy around how you just having a strategy around how you just having a strategy around how you can use that content to reach more can use that content to reach more can use that content to reach more people people people so that as jim said develop so that as jim said develop so that as jim said develop relationships relationships relationships it's not necessarily about the content it's not necessarily about the content it's not necessarily about the content as it is the connection as it is the connection as it is the connection but you want to use that content to but you want to use that content to but you want to use that content to reach people online in google especially reach people online in google especially reach people online in google especially as they're looking for as they're looking for as they're looking for for help with a felt need you can be for help with a felt need you can be for help with a felt need you can be that source that they that source that they that source that they they find and tap into and then have a they find and tap into and then have a they find and tap into and then have a strategy to lead them into strategy to lead them into strategy to lead them into a relationship and regardless i think if a relationship and regardless i think if a relationship and regardless i think if you're far from god or you've been a you're far from god or you've been a you're far from god or you've been a follower your whole life follower your whole life follower your whole life people need connection they need people need connection they need people need connection they need community and you have that community and you have that community and you have that and so tap into that um but i tell you and so tap into that um but i tell you and so tap into that um but i tell you jim's a great guy jim's a great guy jim's a great guy and if you send him an email he'll and if you send him an email he'll and if you send him an email he'll respond he's a busy guy so give him some respond he's a busy guy so give him some respond he's a busy guy so give him some time but i highly recommend time but i highly recommend time but i highly recommend you do that until next time stay safe you do that until next time stay safe you do that until next time stay safe and god bless