Why Digital Matters for Your Church | Joanna La Fleur

but you could give them a print card but you could give them a print card like a physical interaction but the best like a physical interaction but the best like a physical interaction but the best information the most accurate the information the most accurate the information the most accurate the primary way that they're going to ask a primary way that they're going to ask a primary way that they're going to ask a question sign up etc is going to be question sign up etc is going to be question sign up etc is going to be online online online um um um that's that is the expectation of people that's that is the expectation of people that's that is the expectation of people even if they're coming to a physical even if they're coming to a physical even if they're coming to a physical in-person event they don't want to most in-person event they don't want to most in-person event they don't want to most people don't want to go and write their people don't want to go and write their people don't want to go and write their name with a pen on a paper in the lobby name with a pen on a paper in the lobby name with a pen on a paper in the lobby they want a digital experience of that they want a digital experience of that they want a digital experience of that and and and of course we need to accommodate for of course we need to accommodate for of course we need to accommodate for seniors and of the people who you know seniors and of the people who you know seniors and of the people who you know we can have an alternative way for them we can have an alternative way for them we can have an alternative way for them to do some things by calling the church to do some things by calling the church to do some things by calling the church office or whatever that is and they can office or whatever that is and they can office or whatever that is and they can be walked someone you know the the be walked someone you know the the be walked someone you know the the person at the front desk of the church person at the front desk of the church person at the front desk of the church can walk and on the phone walk that can walk and on the phone walk that can walk and on the phone walk that senior um through signing up on the senior um through signing up on the senior um through signing up on the online registry like they can do it for online registry like they can do it for online registry like they can do it for the person over the phone or whatever the person over the phone or whatever the person over the phone or whatever there's ways we can accommodate for there's ways we can accommodate for there's ways we can accommodate for people but overall digital first people but overall digital first people but overall digital first welcome to another episode of the welcome to another episode of the welcome to another episode of the missional marketing podcast jason missional marketing podcast jason missional marketing podcast jason hamrock and bart blair here we are your hamrock and bart blair here we are your hamrock and bart blair here we are your hosts and uh want to thank you for hosts and uh want to thank you for hosts and uh want to thank you for tuning in to the show today uh jason and tuning in to the show today uh jason and tuning in to the show today uh jason and i have got a great interview queued up i have got a great interview queued up i have got a great interview queued up for you here we've had this this string for you here we've had this this string for you here we've had this this string of canadians that we have been of canadians that we have been of canadians that we have been interviewing lately uh rich burch was on interviewing lately uh rich burch was on interviewing lately uh rich burch was on the show recently uh another canadian the show recently uh another canadian the show recently uh another canadian that jason is going to introduce you that jason is going to introduce you that jason is going to introduce you today and coming up in another couple of today and coming up in another couple of today and coming up in another couple of weeks we've got mark macdonald who is weeks we've got mark macdonald who is weeks we've got mark macdonald who is also canadian also canadian also canadian he's lived in florida long enough i he's lived in florida long enough i he's lived in florida long enough i think the canadian is out of him but hey think the canadian is out of him but hey think the canadian is out of him but hey all these canadians my heart's in canada all these canadians my heart's in canada all these canadians my heart's in canada i did ministry in canada for 20 years so i did ministry in canada for 20 years so i did ministry in canada for 20 years so it's always kind of like a little bit of it's always kind of like a little bit of it's always kind of like a little bit of a homecoming for me to connect to the

a homecoming for me to connect to the a homecoming for me to connect to the canadians even the guy who edits this canadians even the guy who edits this canadians even the guy who edits this podcast his name is randall podcast his name is randall podcast his name is randall he lives in canada he lives in canada he lives in canada he's a canadian as well so lots of he's a canadian as well so lots of he's a canadian as well so lots of canadian connections uh jason why don't canadian connections uh jason why don't canadian connections uh jason why don't you introduce today's guest uh love to you introduce today's guest uh love to you introduce today's guest uh love to bart so uh today we're talking with bart so uh today we're talking with bart so uh today we're talking with joanna lafleur and she is joanna lafleur and she is joanna lafleur and she is she's a consultant and when it comes to she's a consultant and when it comes to she's a consultant and when it comes to communications and working with churches communications and working with churches communications and working with churches very very sharp and so today we we talk very very sharp and so today we we talk very very sharp and so today we we talk a little bit about a little bit about a little bit about you know why is it and we kind of you know why is it and we kind of you know why is it and we kind of understand this but she goes deeper into understand this but she goes deeper into understand this but she goes deeper into this why is it important to have digital this why is it important to have digital this why is it important to have digital as a strategy in your communications as a strategy in your communications as a strategy in your communications department at your church and so it's department at your church and so it's department at your church and so it's it's a very intriguing conversation i'm it's a very intriguing conversation i'm it's a very intriguing conversation i'm excited for you to hear from her um she excited for you to hear from her um she excited for you to hear from her um she uh she has a her own uh she has a her own uh she has a her own ministry her own business called word ministry her own business called word ministry her own business called word made digital and so they'll be in the made digital and so they'll be in the made digital and so they'll be in the show notes on how to connect with joanna show notes on how to connect with joanna show notes on how to connect with joanna but it's a great conversation can't wait but it's a great conversation can't wait but it's a great conversation can't wait for you to listen in absolutely joanna for you to listen in absolutely joanna for you to listen in absolutely joanna is a lot of fun she's a person that i is a lot of fun she's a person that i is a lot of fun she's a person that i would choose to hang out with not would choose to hang out with not would choose to hang out with not everybody that we interview on this everybody that we interview on this everybody that we interview on this podcast no offense but not everyone podcast no offense but not everyone podcast no offense but not everyone would i choose to hang out with but she would i choose to hang out with but she would i choose to hang out with but she seems like a lot of fun and uh super seems like a lot of fun and uh super seems like a lot of fun and uh super super sharp super bright uh serving from super sharp super bright uh serving from super sharp super bright uh serving from the tdot from the six way up there in the tdot from the six way up there in the tdot from the six way up there in toronto raptor and blue jay land okay toronto raptor and blue jay land okay toronto raptor and blue jay land okay that's where she is um thanks so much that's where she is um thanks so much that's where she is um thanks so much for tuning into the show we really for tuning into the show we really for tuning into the show we really appreciate it uh we have been getting appreciate it uh we have been getting appreciate it uh we have been getting more and more feedback from those of you more and more feedback from those of you more and more feedback from those of you who are listening to the show or who are listening to the show or who are listening to the show or watching on our youtube channel and uh watching on our youtube channel and uh watching on our youtube channel and uh getting phone calls from time to time getting phone calls from time to time getting phone calls from time to time with people saying hey i listened to with people saying hey i listened to with people saying hey i listened to this podcast and i'm calling you because this podcast and i'm calling you because this podcast and i'm calling you because i need help i need help i need help that's why we do this podcast we want

that's why we do this podcast we want that's why we do this podcast we want you to learn and benefit from the you to learn and benefit from the you to learn and benefit from the content that we're creating here but we content that we're creating here but we content that we're creating here but we also want you to know that we're here to also want you to know that we're here to also want you to know that we're here to help you and to serve you if you're a help you and to serve you if you're a help you and to serve you if you're a church communications director or a church communications director or a church communications director or a pastor executive pastor or a volunteer pastor executive pastor or a volunteer pastor executive pastor or a volunteer in your church and you're looking for in your church and you're looking for in your church and you're looking for just new and different ways to reach just new and different ways to reach just new and different ways to reach more people in your community online more people in your community online more people in your community online um we'd love to talk to you so make sure um we'd love to talk to you so make sure um we'd love to talk to you so make sure that you reach out if you haven't left that you reach out if you haven't left that you reach out if you haven't left us a rating or review wherever you us a rating or review wherever you us a rating or review wherever you consume this podcast we'd appreciate you consume this podcast we'd appreciate you consume this podcast we'd appreciate you doing that and make sure that you doing that and make sure that you doing that and make sure that you subscribe so that you don't miss any subscribe so that you don't miss any subscribe so that you don't miss any further episodes um all the business further episodes um all the business further episodes um all the business stuff that's all that that's what i had stuff that's all that that's what i had stuff that's all that that's what i had to say this podcast is sponsored by to say this podcast is sponsored by to say this podcast is sponsored by missional marketing there that wasn't in missional marketing there that wasn't in missional marketing there that wasn't in my script but i said it's sponsored by my script but i said it's sponsored by my script but i said it's sponsored by missional marketing in case you missed missional marketing in case you missed missional marketing in case you missed that here's our interview with joanna that here's our interview with joanna that here's our interview with joanna lefleur from word made digital lefleur from word made digital lefleur from word made digital joanna thanks so much for joining us all joanna thanks so much for joining us all joanna thanks so much for joining us all the way from the six the way from the six the way from the six the t-dot the t-dot the t-dot the gta the tip of the golden horseshoe the gta the tip of the golden horseshoe the gta the tip of the golden horseshoe i'm i'm saying all these things that you i'm i'm saying all these things that you i'm i'm saying all these things that you have maybe i i hope i said all those have maybe i i hope i said all those have maybe i i hope i said all those things right i lived there for a while things right i lived there for a while things right i lived there for a while but you are joining us from toronto but you are joining us from toronto but you are joining us from toronto ontario yeah there it is so much toronto ontario yeah there it is so much toronto ontario yeah there it is so much toronto thanks so much for being on the show thanks so much for being on the show thanks so much for being on the show today all my young hip friends will be today all my young hip friends will be today all my young hip friends will be proud that i referred to it as the six proud that i referred to it as the six proud that i referred to it as the six it used to be the tdot right well and as it used to be the tdot right well and as it used to be the tdot right well and as i say if this is a video podcast i live i say if this is a video podcast i live i say if this is a video podcast i live in high up in the sky and out the window in high up in the sky and out the window in high up in the sky and out the window there if people see there's there's some there if people see there's there's some there if people see there's there's some of toronto because yeah it's the biggest of toronto because yeah it's the biggest of toronto because yeah it's the biggest city in canada city in canada city in canada it's bigger than chicago so it's like i it's bigger than chicago so it's like i it's bigger than chicago so it's like i think it's something like toronto l.a think it's something like toronto l.a think it's something like toronto l.a sorry new york sorry new york sorry new york la then toronto then chicago in terms of

la then toronto then chicago in terms of la then toronto then chicago in terms of size just to give my american friends size just to give my american friends size just to give my american friends some context it's a huge city and i live some context it's a huge city and i live some context it's a huge city and i live right in the middle of it right in the middle of it right in the middle of it right in the dead center and right in the dead center and right in the dead center and i would have gone a limb and say i would have gone a limb and say i would have gone a limb and say probably the most um multicultural city probably the most um multicultural city probably the most um multicultural city in north america prob pro probably so in north america prob pro probably so in north america prob pro probably so they say yeah yeah they say yeah yeah they say yeah yeah um language culture religion and um language culture religion and um language culture religion and i think the best part the food we get to i think the best part the food we get to i think the best part the food we get to eat our way around the world here in eat our way around the world here in eat our way around the world here in toronto which is fun oh that's cool that toronto which is fun oh that's cool that toronto which is fun oh that's cool that is true but if you're in toronto you is true but if you're in toronto you is true but if you're in toronto you gotta have poutine i mean it's just gotta have poutine i mean it's just gotta have poutine i mean it's just given if you haven't been to toronto given if you haven't been to toronto given if you haven't been to toronto find some poutine i guess it's just as a find some poutine i guess it's just as a find some poutine i guess it's just as a as a random side note of that if people as a random side note of that if people as a random side note of that if people don't know what it is people were people don't know what it is people were people don't know what it is people were people were um when the war where ukraine were um when the war where ukraine were um when the war where ukraine russia wore and they're hearing about russia wore and they're hearing about russia wore and they're hearing about putin the the leader poot president putin the the leader poot president putin the the leader poot president putin they were thinking putin and putin they were thinking putin and putin they were thinking putin and poutine were the same so people were poutine were the same so people were poutine were the same so people were boycotting poutine because they thought boycotting poutine because they thought boycotting poutine because they thought it was named after putin it's not it's a it was named after putin it's not it's a it was named after putin it's not it's a french thing fries cheese gravy it's french thing fries cheese gravy it's french thing fries cheese gravy it's good not good for you but very very good good not good for you but very very good good not good for you but very very good that sounds good to you yeah rice cheese that sounds good to you yeah rice cheese that sounds good to you yeah rice cheese and gravy i'm in that's okay ladies and and gravy i'm in that's okay ladies and and gravy i'm in that's okay ladies and gentlemen there is a point to this gentlemen there is a point to this gentlemen there is a point to this podcast today and we're gonna get to it podcast today and we're gonna get to it podcast today and we're gonna get to it joanna for our uh audience for our joanna for our uh audience for our joanna for our uh audience for our listeners for our viewers why don't you listeners for our viewers why don't you listeners for our viewers why don't you uh take a few minutes to uh just share uh take a few minutes to uh just share uh take a few minutes to uh just share your story tell us a little bit about your story tell us a little bit about your story tell us a little bit about your background how you ended up in your background how you ended up in your background how you ended up in ministry and how it led to you doing ministry and how it led to you doing ministry and how it led to you doing what you're doing today what you're doing today what you're doing today yeah um there's always a long and short yeah um there's always a long and short yeah um there's always a long and short version but uh you so feel free to if version but uh you so feel free to if version but uh you so feel free to if you want more i can say more but come

you want more i can say more but come you want more i can say more but come from a from a from a ministry-minded missions-minded family ministry-minded missions-minded family ministry-minded missions-minded family have lived abroad as a kid growing up have lived abroad as a kid growing up have lived abroad as a kid growing up um um um ministry and missions my parents weren't ministry and missions my parents weren't ministry and missions my parents weren't um my dad was a nuclear engineer which um my dad was a nuclear engineer which um my dad was a nuclear engineer which led to being able to travel and work all led to being able to travel and work all led to being able to travel and work all over the world but the heart was always over the world but the heart was always over the world but the heart was always ministry in the family i grew up in so ministry in the family i grew up in so ministry in the family i grew up in so wherever we went um wherever we went um wherever we went um ministry and discipleship was in the ministry and discipleship was in the ministry and discipleship was in the home i grew up in so so uh faith was a home i grew up in so so uh faith was a home i grew up in so so uh faith was a part of my life then of course everybody part of my life then of course everybody part of my life then of course everybody goes to young adulthood and has to goes to young adulthood and has to goes to young adulthood and has to wrestle it through for themselves i went wrestle it through for themselves i went wrestle it through for themselves i went into business and marketing direction into business and marketing direction into business and marketing direction because i honestly didn't see because i honestly didn't see because i honestly didn't see for one of the main things was i didn't for one of the main things was i didn't for one of the main things was i didn't really have any models of women doing really have any models of women doing really have any models of women doing leadership and ministry in the churches leadership and ministry in the churches leadership and ministry in the churches i come from so i started there i i ended i come from so i started there i i ended i come from so i started there i i ended up in the high-tech world i lived in up in the high-tech world i lived in up in the high-tech world i lived in waterloo ontario which is silicon valley waterloo ontario which is silicon valley waterloo ontario which is silicon valley north it's where blackberry in the this north it's where blackberry in the this north it's where blackberry in the this is is is relative it was it was blackberry's relative it was it was blackberry's relative it was it was blackberry's heyday heyday heyday when i was coming up through through my when i was coming up through through my when i was coming up through through my university years into graduation university years into graduation university years into graduation and so everybody's working in tech where and so everybody's working in tech where and so everybody's working in tech where i lived i lived i lived then i felt like a really strong pull then i felt like a really strong pull then i felt like a really strong pull from the lord you know which is a whole from the lord you know which is a whole from the lord you know which is a whole story of its own to use the skills i was story of its own to use the skills i was story of its own to use the skills i was using in tech using in tech using in tech uh for the church communications uh for the church communications uh for the church communications marketing pr digital technology and so marketing pr digital technology and so marketing pr digital technology and so that meandered me part-time and then that meandered me part-time and then that meandered me part-time and then full-time into church work i ended up at full-time into church work i ended up at full-time into church work i ended up at a a church that became a mega church a a church that became a mega church a a church that became a mega church while i was there so my job changed a while i was there so my job changed a while i was there so my job changed a few times but i was on the pastoral you few times but i was on the pastoral you few times but i was on the pastoral you know the ministry team know the ministry team know the ministry team there um lots of different job titles

there um lots of different job titles there um lots of different job titles over the years but ultimately i was over the years but ultimately i was over the years but ultimately i was overseeing creative and communications overseeing creative and communications overseeing creative and communications on the side started my masters in on the side started my masters in on the side started my masters in theology and then hosting the word made theology and then hosting the word made theology and then hosting the word made digital podcast and digital podcast and digital podcast and um um co-hosting a women's tv talk show um um co-hosting a women's tv talk show um um co-hosting a women's tv talk show on the canadian national you know the on the canadian national you know the on the canadian national you know the christian channel and on and on and all christian channel and on and on and all christian channel and on and on and all this stuff was kind of happening on the this stuff was kind of happening on the this stuff was kind of happening on the side and i i had to choose so after nine side and i i had to choose so after nine side and i i had to choose so after nine years working in the mega church land um years working in the mega church land um years working in the mega church land um just before covid really before the just before covid really before the just before covid really before the pandemic changed a lot of our lives uh i pandemic changed a lot of our lives uh i pandemic changed a lot of our lives uh i jumped out and began doing this stuff on jumped out and began doing this stuff on jumped out and began doing this stuff on on my own which is now grown into a team on my own which is now grown into a team on my own which is now grown into a team word made digital on one hand is this word made digital on one hand is this word made digital on one hand is this content creation and sort of podcasting content creation and sort of podcasting content creation and sort of podcasting tv tv tv speaking at events doing tutorial videos speaking at events doing tutorial videos speaking at events doing tutorial videos the other half is helping others do that the other half is helping others do that the other half is helping others do that with their content so churches and with their content so churches and with their content so churches and charities who need you know charities who need you know charities who need you know communication strategy communication strategy communication strategy help and are trying to figure out what help and are trying to figure out what help and are trying to figure out what to do in the digital world or if they to do in the digital world or if they to do in the digital world or if they should be on tick tock or how they need should be on tick tock or how they need should be on tick tock or how they need to rebrand and all that kind of stuff to rebrand and all that kind of stuff to rebrand and all that kind of stuff that's the um that's the um that's the um not the longest version but a longer not the longest version but a longer not the longest version but a longer version than i thought i'd tell you in version than i thought i'd tell you in version than i thought i'd tell you in the middle yeah the middle yeah the middle yeah yeah let's give out there you said yeah let's give out there you said yeah let's give out there you said something that caught my attention and something that caught my attention and something that caught my attention and it's uh it's uh it's uh um you know part of um you know part of um you know part of who's listening to this podcast are who's listening to this podcast are who's listening to this podcast are typically church communication directors typically church communication directors typically church communication directors or executive pastors lead pastors we or executive pastors lead pastors we or executive pastors lead pastors we have a little bit of everybody have a little bit of everybody have a little bit of everybody these days it seems like we're talking a these days it seems like we're talking a these days it seems like we're talking a lot of strategy because it's like a lot lot of strategy because it's like a lot lot of strategy because it's like a lot of churches coming out of kovid

of churches coming out of kovid of churches coming out of kovid are having to figure out their new are having to figure out their new are having to figure out their new strategy strategy strategy yep yep yep in your opinion because you're you know in your opinion because you're you know in your opinion because you're you know you're in the thick of it what are you you're in the thick of it what are you you're in the thick of it what are you how are you leading churches when it how are you leading churches when it how are you leading churches when it comes to a communication strategy what comes to a communication strategy what comes to a communication strategy what does that look like give some advice to does that look like give some advice to does that look like give some advice to some some people that are listening some some people that are listening some some people that are listening going yeah bernard we're starting those going yeah bernard we're starting those going yeah bernard we're starting those conversations and we're not even sure conversations and we're not even sure conversations and we're not even sure what to even do what to even do what to even do um yeah well um yeah well um yeah well the the the the best way to say it is you know if i the best way to say it is you know if i the best way to say it is you know if i might be or my small team we might be might be or my small team we might be might be or my small team we might be the experts on communications the experts on communications the experts on communications the church or the christian organization the church or the christian organization the church or the christian organization they're the expert on their organization they're the expert on their organization they're the expert on their organization and so it's really more of like a and so it's really more of like a and so it's really more of like a working together working together working together idea of if you're the expert at this and idea of if you're the expert at this and idea of if you're the expert at this and i'm the expert at that if we come i'm the expert at that if we come i'm the expert at that if we come together we can really make a strategy together we can really make a strategy together we can really make a strategy that makes sense that makes sense that makes sense for you now that said there are probably for you now that said there are probably for you now that said there are probably some handles you know some touch points some handles you know some touch points some handles you know some touch points that are true everywhere a common one that are true everywhere a common one that are true everywhere a common one that i say that is not unique to me but that i say that is not unique to me but that i say that is not unique to me but we talked about digital first not we talked about digital first not we talked about digital first not digital only the first way digital only the first way digital only the first way um the best information the most um the best information the most um the best information the most accurate content accurate content accurate content you know the way we engage with people you know the way we engage with people you know the way we engage with people is online is online is online and we hope that that will lead to and we hope that that will lead to and we hope that that will lead to in-person engagements and connections in-person engagements and connections in-person engagements and connections with people but even after it has moved with people but even after it has moved with people but even after it has moved to in-person of course you're going to to in-person of course you're going to to in-person of course you're going to have have have lots of ongoing connections through lots of ongoing connections through lots of ongoing connections through digital content and just through digital digital content and just through digital digital content and just through digital conversations and so conversations and so conversations and so um you know that would be probably um you know that would be probably um you know that would be probably overall a philosophy we talk about one overall a philosophy we talk about one overall a philosophy we talk about one of the other things i talk about is we of the other things i talk about is we of the other things i talk about is we tell the truth tell the truth tell the truth which is i find a lot of churches want

which is i find a lot of churches want which is i find a lot of churches want to exaggerate how great everything is to exaggerate how great everything is to exaggerate how great everything is or they want to make it look like or they want to make it look like or they want to make it look like there's you know a thousand people in there's you know a thousand people in there's you know a thousand people in the room when there's only a hundred and the room when there's only a hundred and the room when there's only a hundred and it's fine that there's a hundred people it's fine that there's a hundred people it's fine that there's a hundred people in the room but when you make it uh look in the room but when you make it uh look in the room but when you make it uh look like there's a thousand because of your like there's a thousand because of your like there's a thousand because of your unique camera angle then when people unique camera angle then when people unique camera angle then when people show up show up show up they see that it was the hundred not the they see that it was the hundred not the they see that it was the hundred not the thousand and you've just immediately thousand and you've just immediately thousand and you've just immediately broken trust with people broken trust with people broken trust with people um from the first one they walk in the um from the first one they walk in the um from the first one they walk in the door door door um um um because because because it was fine that it was a hundred but if it was fine that it was a hundred but if it was fine that it was a hundred but if they were expecting something else they they were expecting something else they they were expecting something else they feel kind of like intuitively like feel kind of like intuitively like feel kind of like intuitively like they've been a bit deceived or tricked they've been a bit deceived or tricked they've been a bit deceived or tricked or something and so you're kind of or something and so you're kind of or something and so you're kind of losing people from the moment they come losing people from the moment they come losing people from the moment they come so you know we want to tell the truth so you know we want to tell the truth so you know we want to tell the truth digital first digital first digital first and and and from there we get into more granular from there we get into more granular from there we get into more granular things things things but you just said something a couple but you just said something a couple but you just said something a couple things i want to recap that so yeah things i want to recap that so yeah things i want to recap that so yeah strategy is important and understanding strategy is important and understanding strategy is important and understanding that leadership has a strategy and then that leadership has a strategy and then that leadership has a strategy and then as comms people we have a strategy but as comms people we have a strategy but as comms people we have a strategy but we take our cues we take our cues we take our cues from leadership of where are you wanting from leadership of where are you wanting from leadership of where are you wanting to go what's the message and okay now to go what's the message and okay now to go what's the message and okay now we'll package that up and make sure it's we'll package that up and make sure it's we'll package that up and make sure it's delivered and articulated the way you delivered and articulated the way you delivered and articulated the way you want it done and i think sometimes want it done and i think sometimes want it done and i think sometimes we get that disconnect i think it's a we get that disconnect i think it's a we get that disconnect i think it's a unintentional disconnect it's that we're unintentional disconnect it's that we're unintentional disconnect it's that we're not asking the leadership not asking the leadership not asking the leadership what's our strategy where are we going what's our strategy where are we going what's our strategy where are we going what's god communicating to you that we what's god communicating to you that we what's god communicating to you that we need to now communicate to our people need to now communicate to our people need to now communicate to our people and our community i think that was the and our community i think that was the and our community i think that was the first thing you you said the second one first thing you you said the second one first thing you you said the second one is you know i is you know i is you know i haven't really i always camped out in haven't really i always camped out in haven't really i always camped out in the first one but the second one is the first one but the second one is the first one but the second one is important building trust i'm when people

important building trust i'm when people important building trust i'm when people that are in the community looking at you that are in the community looking at you that are in the community looking at you and not baiting i call bait and switch and not baiting i call bait and switch and not baiting i call bait and switch don't be don't be don't be don't be deceiving people now you may don't be deceiving people now you may don't be deceiving people now you may think it's not happening think it's not happening think it's not happening but you got to take a hard look at that but you got to take a hard look at that but you got to take a hard look at that huh huh huh maybe in your social media posts or maybe in your social media posts or maybe in your social media posts or things of that nature is that what things of that nature is that what things of that nature is that what you're kind of you know even when you you're kind of you know even when you you're kind of you know even when you say like it's a certain culture maybe i say like it's a certain culture maybe i say like it's a certain culture maybe i mean this is just another example where mean this is just another example where mean this is just another example where people will say this was the best sermon people will say this was the best sermon people will say this was the best sermon ever and if you missed sunday you know ever and if you missed sunday you know ever and if you missed sunday you know it was so awesome and it's like every it was so awesome and it's like every it was so awesome and it's like every week can't be your best week ever like week can't be your best week ever like week can't be your best week ever like it's weird that we're saying that like it's weird that we're saying that like it's weird that we're saying that like and and i think it also sets up the and and i think it also sets up the and and i think it also sets up the minister the pastor the preacher the minister the pastor the preacher the minister the pastor the preacher the whoever whoever whoever uh uh uh with a lot of unnecessary pressure as if with a lot of unnecessary pressure as if with a lot of unnecessary pressure as if we expect some home run every week we expect some home run every week we expect some home run every week that's just not life and so people know that's just not life and so people know that's just not life and so people know that and just feels disingenuous that and just feels disingenuous that and just feels disingenuous um you're reading you're reading my um you're reading you're reading my um you're reading you're reading my you're reading my mail it is one of my you're reading my mail it is one of my you're reading my mail it is one of my pet peeves i've been in the church pet peeves i've been in the church pet peeves i've been in the church planting space for most of my 20 years planting space for most of my 20 years planting space for most of my 20 years of ministry and so i spent a lot of time of ministry and so i spent a lot of time of ministry and so i spent a lot of time around church planters around church planters around church planters i love church planters they are without i love church planters they are without i love church planters they are without church planters we wouldn't have church planters we wouldn't have church planters we wouldn't have churches being planted i want to say churches being planted i want to say churches being planted i want to say that but they are they are often the that but they are they are often the that but they are they are often the worst about every sunday on their own worst about every sunday on their own worst about every sunday on their own social media feed you don't want to miss social media feed you don't want to miss social media feed you don't want to miss this weekend best sermon ever it's going this weekend best sermon ever it's going this weekend best sermon ever it's going to be the best you don't want to miss it to be the best you don't want to miss it to be the best you don't want to miss it and that hyperbole i mean i understand and that hyperbole i mean i understand and that hyperbole i mean i understand their enthusiasm i've been there i've their enthusiasm i've been there i've their enthusiasm i've been there i've been that pastor who thought wow i been that pastor who thought wow i been that pastor who thought wow i really do have a great message this week really do have a great message this week really do have a great message this week and then the next week wow i have a and then the next week wow i have a and then the next week wow i have a really good message this week and you really good message this week and you really good message this week and you don't ever want people to miss it you

don't ever want people to miss it you don't ever want people to miss it you don't ever want people to skip out on don't ever want people to skip out on don't ever want people to skip out on what you think god has given you to to what you think god has given you to to what you think god has given you to to deliver that could be life-changing for deliver that could be life-changing for deliver that could be life-changing for them but you're right them but you're right them but you're right not every sunday can be the best sunday not every sunday can be the best sunday not every sunday can be the best sunday some are going to be better than others some are going to be better than others some are going to be better than others and and some some are just and and some some are just and and some some are just and we and we and we we do a thing in our staff meeting we do a thing in our staff meeting we do a thing in our staff meeting admissional marketing every friday we do admissional marketing every friday we do admissional marketing every friday we do kind of highlights of the week and i kind of highlights of the week and i kind of highlights of the week and i think last week i went this week was think last week i went this week was think last week i went this week was vanilla vanilla vanilla there was no chocolate there were no there was no chocolate there were no there was no chocolate there were no sprinkles sprinkles sprinkles it wasn't a bad it wasn't a bad week it it wasn't a bad it wasn't a bad week it it wasn't a bad it wasn't a bad week it was just kind of a vanilla week and it's was just kind of a vanilla week and it's was just kind of a vanilla week and it's it's okay that we do vanilla um i love it's okay that we do vanilla um i love it's okay that we do vanilla um i love that i'm gonna double click on that as that i'm gonna double click on that as that i'm gonna double click on that as well you know jason said that the well you know jason said that the well you know jason said that the building trust i think authenticity is building trust i think authenticity is building trust i think authenticity is one of the key ways that we do that and one of the key ways that we do that and one of the key ways that we do that and and and and you know i'm not saying like i mean i i you know i'm not saying like i mean i i you know i'm not saying like i mean i i had a church recently that can kind of had a church recently that can kind of had a church recently that can kind of push back on actually their senior push back on actually their senior push back on actually their senior pastor the the communications team had pastor the the communications team had pastor the the communications team had given us some photos to use in an ad given us some photos to use in an ad given us some photos to use in an ad campaign we were running and the senior campaign we were running and the senior campaign we were running and the senior leadership team pushed back on it leadership team pushed back on it leadership team pushed back on it because one of the photos showed a bunch because one of the photos showed a bunch because one of the photos showed a bunch of empty seats in the sanctuary and of empty seats in the sanctuary and of empty seats in the sanctuary and they're in their auditorium and they're they're in their auditorium and they're they're in their auditorium and they're like no no we don't want pictures shown like no no we don't want pictures shown like no no we don't want pictures shown with empty seats but with empty seats but with empty seats but okay i mean i kind of get that and we okay i mean i kind of get that and we okay i mean i kind of get that and we can crop the photo so that it doesn't can crop the photo so that it doesn't can crop the photo so that it doesn't highlight or accentuate the fact that highlight or accentuate the fact that highlight or accentuate the fact that they're empty seats but you know maybe they're empty seats but you know maybe they're empty seats but you know maybe you could capitalize on the fact that you could capitalize on the fact that you could capitalize on the fact that there's an empty scene here for you the there's an empty scene here for you the there's an empty scene here for you the person who's actually seeing this ad the person who's actually seeing this ad the person who's actually seeing this ad the person that we're trying to communicate person that we're trying to communicate person that we're trying to communicate to and and uh just use who you are and to and and uh just use who you are and to and and uh just use who you are and what you have to to to build that what you have to to to build that what you have to to to build that authentic trust in the business world authentic trust in the business world authentic trust in the business world pros will say pros will say pros will say kenny zhang would say people will do

kenny zhang would say people will do kenny zhang would say people will do business with you when they know you business with you when they know you business with you when they know you like you and trust you and i think the like you and trust you and i think the like you and trust you and i think the same is true in the church world they same is true in the church world they same is true in the church world they get to know us they come to like us get to know us they come to like us get to know us they come to like us they'll engage with us and stick with they'll engage with us and stick with they'll engage with us and stick with our community when they come to trust us our community when they come to trust us our community when they come to trust us and i think that's a really important and i think that's a really important and i think that's a really important thing for us to consider thing for us to consider thing for us to consider yeah well then the same go ahead no just yeah well then the same go ahead no just yeah well then the same go ahead no just the same for for churches that's the the same for for churches that's the the same for for churches that's the whole point is they will come to your whole point is they will come to your whole point is they will come to your church if they know you like you and church if they know you like you and church if they know you like you and trust you they will come to know christ trust you they will come to know christ trust you they will come to know christ if they know him like him and trust him if they know him like him and trust him if they know him like him and trust him you know you know you know uh uh uh yes yes yes so i'm not saying we have to like like d so i'm not saying we have to like like d so i'm not saying we have to like like d i'm not saying we should self-depreciate i'm not saying we should self-depreciate i'm not saying we should self-depreciate uh like oh our service nobody's here uh like oh our service nobody's here uh like oh our service nobody's here mama like don't take up you don't have mama like don't take up you don't have mama like don't take up you don't have to post a terrible photo to post a terrible photo to post a terrible photo but i think it's just we're not often but i think it's just we're not often but i think it's just we're not often honest and people are smart savvy honest and people are smart savvy honest and people are smart savvy consumers and they know and if they consumers and they know and if they consumers and they know and if they don't know from looking as soon as they don't know from looking as soon as they don't know from looking as soon as they show up they're going to know show up they're going to know show up they're going to know have you taken a lot of those tactics have you taken a lot of those tactics have you taken a lot of those tactics that you learned in the corporate world that you learned in the corporate world that you learned in the corporate world when it comes to marketing and when it comes to marketing and when it comes to marketing and communications which is typically around communications which is typically around communications which is typically around selling you know something the buyer's selling you know something the buyer's selling you know something the buyer's journey have you taken a lot of those journey have you taken a lot of those journey have you taken a lot of those same principles and applied them to the same principles and applied them to the same principles and applied them to the church world church world church world i suppose i have uh but i don't know if i suppose i have uh but i don't know if i suppose i have uh but i don't know if i've done it very intentionally um i've done it very intentionally um i've done it very intentionally um you know i think some of the stuff that you know i think some of the stuff that you know i think some of the stuff that that seems to be in the waters these that seems to be in the waters these that seems to be in the waters these days that church people are talking days that church people are talking days that church people are talking about is about is about is how you know for the last 40 50 years how you know for the last 40 50 years how you know for the last 40 50 years business approaches entrepreneur business approaches entrepreneur business approaches entrepreneur approaches to church

approaches to church approaches to church have been like a major emphasis in a lot have been like a major emphasis in a lot have been like a major emphasis in a lot of churches of churches of churches and even then some of the leaders and and even then some of the leaders and and even then some of the leaders and advocates of that that we've admired advocates of that that we've admired advocates of that that we've admired have had you know significant moral have had you know significant moral have had you know significant moral failures in the last number of years failures in the last number of years failures in the last number of years and so and so and so not that it's all on their shoulders but not that it's all on their shoulders but not that it's all on their shoulders but we can be honest to say we can be honest to say we can be honest to say the church is shrinking not growing the church is shrinking not growing the church is shrinking not growing so um so um so um there's something to learn from business there's something to learn from business there's something to learn from business and of course as a communications and of course as a communications and of course as a communications professional a marketing professional professional a marketing professional professional a marketing professional there are skills and techniques that we there are skills and techniques that we there are skills and techniques that we can use to serve the church but can use to serve the church but can use to serve the church but but but but we have to be honest about how they only we have to be honest about how they only we have to be honest about how they only go so far go so far go so far um that is we need to like an honest um that is we need to like an honest um that is we need to like an honest look in the mirror and just say you know look in the mirror and just say you know look in the mirror and just say you know have we left the holy spirit at the door have we left the holy spirit at the door have we left the holy spirit at the door and i don't mean that in a hyper and i don't mean that in a hyper and i don't mean that in a hyper charismatic charismatic charismatic kind of sense i mean literally kind of sense i mean literally kind of sense i mean literally are we relying on our own strength are we relying on our own strength are we relying on our own strength instead of the work of god uh in our instead of the work of god uh in our instead of the work of god uh in our churches to do what he can only do churches to do what he can only do churches to do what he can only do yeah hi bart blair here i'm the producer yeah hi bart blair here i'm the producer yeah hi bart blair here i'm the producer of missional marketing's church growth of missional marketing's church growth of missional marketing's church growth interviews podcast on behalf of our interviews podcast on behalf of our interviews podcast on behalf of our entire team we really appreciate you entire team we really appreciate you entire team we really appreciate you tuning in let me ask you a question if tuning in let me ask you a question if tuning in let me ask you a question if you're a church leader or a church you're a church leader or a church you're a church leader or a church communications professional do you know communications professional do you know communications professional do you know how google sees your church website how google sees your church website how google sees your church website in other words if people in your in other words if people in your in other words if people in your community were to google churches near community were to google churches near community were to google churches near me or best church in my city or good me or best church in my city or good me or best church in my city or good church nearby do you know where your church nearby do you know where your church nearby do you know where your church website would show up in those church website would show up in those church website would show up in those search results search results search results at the top maybe or somewhere in the at the top maybe or somewhere in the at the top maybe or somewhere in the middle or somewhere on page four you middle or somewhere on page four you middle or somewhere on page four you know there's a common misunderstanding know there's a common misunderstanding know there's a common misunderstanding that if we simply build a great website

that if we simply build a great website that if we simply build a great website and we launch it that google will and we launch it that google will and we launch it that google will somehow work its magic and people will somehow work its magic and people will somehow work its magic and people will find us online but there's a bit more find us online but there's a bit more find us online but there's a bit more art and science to making sure that your art and science to making sure that your art and science to making sure that your church website shows up in the top of church website shows up in the top of church website shows up in the top of those search results those search results those search results and that science is called local seo or and that science is called local seo or and that science is called local seo or local search engine optimization in local search engine optimization in local search engine optimization in additional marketing local seo is one of additional marketing local seo is one of additional marketing local seo is one of the core services that we provide for the core services that we provide for the core services that we provide for churches all across the united states churches all across the united states churches all across the united states and canada and canada and canada we'd love to help you we'd love to help you we'd love to help you if you'd like to learn more click to our if you'd like to learn more click to our if you'd like to learn more click to our website at missionalmarketing.com and website at missionalmarketing.com and website at missionalmarketing.com and follow the link at the top of the page follow the link at the top of the page follow the link at the top of the page that says church seo you can request a that says church seo you can request a that says church seo you can request a free local seo report to see how your free local seo report to see how your free local seo report to see how your church is showing up in google these church is showing up in google these church is showing up in google these days and you can schedule an appointment days and you can schedule an appointment days and you can schedule an appointment to talk with jason or with me or with to talk with jason or with me or with to talk with jason or with me or with one of our other digital strategists to one of our other digital strategists to one of our other digital strategists to help you decide whether or not a local help you decide whether or not a local help you decide whether or not a local seo boost is right for your church hey seo boost is right for your church hey seo boost is right for your church hey again we appreciate you tuning in to our again we appreciate you tuning in to our again we appreciate you tuning in to our podcast and we look forward to the podcast and we look forward to the podcast and we look forward to the opportunity to serving you in your opportunity to serving you in your opportunity to serving you in your church and reaching more people for church and reaching more people for church and reaching more people for jesus now back to the show well that's jesus now back to the show well that's jesus now back to the show well that's well that's that uh secret ingredient well that's that uh secret ingredient well that's that uh secret ingredient that we have that the corporate doesn't that we have that the corporate doesn't that we have that the corporate doesn't have is the holy spirit have is the holy spirit have is the holy spirit and i think it's interesting where i i and i think it's interesting where i i and i think it's interesting where i i try and try and try and you know when i talk to churches i try you know when i talk to churches i try you know when i talk to churches i try and and communicate that and and communicate that and and communicate that people are on if you're looking for a people are on if you're looking for a people are on if you're looking for a church church church these days you can you can literally can these days you can you can literally can these days you can you can literally can shop around online and you can look at shop around online and you can look at shop around online and you can look at photos and read reviews and watch a photos and read reviews and watch a photos and read reviews and watch a sermon and do that and you need to make sermon and do that and you need to make sermon and do that and you need to make sure you have your sure you have your sure you have your you know not like we were saying before you know not like we were saying before you know not like we were saying before not not not misinformation or or leading people down

misinformation or or leading people down misinformation or or leading people down the wrong path but you really want to the wrong path but you really want to the wrong path but you really want to have a have a have a positive positive positive positive experience with that and i positive experience with that and i positive experience with that and i think it's important sometimes if we you think it's important sometimes if we you think it's important sometimes if we you know you think about the corporate world know you think about the corporate world know you think about the corporate world where they they do a lot of where they they do a lot of where they they do a lot of they're trying to gain they're trying to they're trying to gain they're trying to they're trying to gain they're trying to sell you something with a credit card sell you something with a credit card sell you something with a credit card transfer information or an email or you transfer information or an email or you transfer information or an email or you downloaded something there's a there's a downloaded something there's a there's a downloaded something there's a there's a gift for you i think in the church where gift for you i think in the church where gift for you i think in the church where we can we can learn from that where you we can we can learn from that where you we can we can learn from that where you can have gated content bart says this can have gated content bart says this can have gated content bart says this all the time have gated content for all the time have gated content for all the time have gated content for somebody that gives value to their life somebody that gives value to their life somebody that gives value to their life into what they're looking for and that into what they're looking for and that into what they're looking for and that comes you know that's that's branding comes you know that's that's branding comes you know that's that's branding the church and it's a local church in a the church and it's a local church in a the church and it's a local church in a sense and that that really goes a long sense and that that really goes a long sense and that that really goes a long way um churches we never really did that way um churches we never really did that way um churches we never really did that in the past i see i see more churches in the past i see i see more churches in the past i see i see more churches doing that these days doing that these days doing that these days yeah i think of course it's always the yeah i think of course it's always the yeah i think of course it's always the balance of like what can we learn from balance of like what can we learn from balance of like what can we learn from um the best you know um the best you know um the best you know if we go back to the beginning if we go back to the beginning if we go back to the beginning jesus the apostle paul you know they're jesus the apostle paul you know they're jesus the apostle paul you know they're quoting and referencing context in quoting and referencing context in quoting and referencing context in philosophy and thinking of the day so philosophy and thinking of the day so philosophy and thinking of the day so yes of course there's lots we can learn yes of course there's lots we can learn yes of course there's lots we can learn but it's it's where but it's it's where but it's it's where where we rely you know can we do can we where we rely you know can we do can we where we rely you know can we do can we do this entire thing and jesus doesn't do this entire thing and jesus doesn't do this entire thing and jesus doesn't need to be involved you know that's when need to be involved you know that's when need to be involved you know that's when i get concerned yeah for sure i get concerned yeah for sure i get concerned yeah for sure no no no i know you said something earlier that i i know you said something earlier that i i know you said something earlier that i want to kind of want to kind of want to kind of backtrack to and get you to drill down backtrack to and get you to drill down backtrack to and get you to drill down on a little bit and that is you said you on a little bit and that is you said you on a little bit and that is you said you focus on focus on focus on digital first not digital only and i'd digital first not digital only and i'd digital first not digital only and i'd like you to kind of expound on that a like you to kind of expound on that a like you to kind of expound on that a little bit and maybe explain a little little bit and maybe explain a little little bit and maybe explain a little bit why you think churches should care

bit why you think churches should care bit why you think churches should care about digital as it is pre-covered about digital as it is pre-covered about digital as it is pre-covered pan-covered post-covet new world that pan-covered post-covet new world that pan-covered post-covet new world that we're in why is digital important for we're in why is digital important for we're in why is digital important for churches and and what is the difference churches and and what is the difference churches and and what is the difference between digital first rather than between digital first rather than between digital first rather than digital only or digital as a primary digital only or digital as a primary digital only or digital as a primary yeah um the metaphor i love to use is yeah um the metaphor i love to use is yeah um the metaphor i love to use is dating apps which if you rewind 20 years dating apps which if you rewind 20 years dating apps which if you rewind 20 years ago ago ago were like frankly like creepy desperate were like frankly like creepy desperate were like frankly like creepy desperate people went to dating apps and today people went to dating apps and today people went to dating apps and today uh that's that is not the case it is the uh that's that is not the case it is the uh that's that is not the case it is the it is the primary way it is the primary way it is the primary way people who are looking for a romantic people who are looking for a romantic people who are looking for a romantic partner partner partner are are and like a long-term serious are are and like a long-term serious are are and like a long-term serious relationship that's where they're going relationship that's where they're going relationship that's where they're going to find someone um it's weird to go up to find someone um it's weird to go up to find someone um it's weird to go up to a stranger to a stranger to a stranger uh you know at a you know at a public uh you know at a you know at a public uh you know at a you know at a public place and talk to them that's creepy now place and talk to them that's creepy now place and talk to them that's creepy now the the not creepy thing is to meet the the not creepy thing is to meet the the not creepy thing is to meet someone on the internet someone on the internet someone on the internet and so um you know in this in the um in and so um you know in this in the um in and so um you know in this in the um in the same way the same way the same way uh uh uh so a dating app the point is to meet so a dating app the point is to meet so a dating app the point is to meet people you never would have had people you never would have had people you never would have had opportunity to cross paths with before opportunity to cross paths with before opportunity to cross paths with before um but once you meet and get to know um but once you meet and get to know um but once you meet and get to know each other a little bit online each other a little bit online each other a little bit online the intention of it if you're looking the intention of it if you're looking the intention of it if you're looking for a relationship is to meet in person for a relationship is to meet in person for a relationship is to meet in person that's the point you're going to meet in that's the point you're going to meet in that's the point you're going to meet in person person person and and and and and and yet then also while if it does continue yet then also while if it does continue yet then also while if it does continue um you're going to have digital um you're going to have digital um you're going to have digital interactions i'm sure interactions i'm sure interactions i'm sure you know all of us do with our family you know all of us do with our family you know all of us do with our family and loved ones and friends every single and loved ones and friends every single and loved ones and friends every single day we're texting please grab milk on

day we're texting please grab milk on day we're texting please grab milk on your way home or you're away and you're your way home or you're away and you're your way home or you're away and you're facetiming your kids there's digital facetiming your kids there's digital facetiming your kids there's digital interactions throughout the relationship interactions throughout the relationship interactions throughout the relationship so you met online you never would have so you met online you never would have so you met online you never would have met any other way the intention is to met any other way the intention is to met any other way the intention is to come and meet in person but then even come and meet in person but then even come and meet in person but then even then throughout that in between those then throughout that in between those then throughout that in between those in-person interactions you're connecting in-person interactions you're connecting in-person interactions you're connecting online online online so in the same for the church you know so in the same for the church you know so in the same for the church you know there are people who would never know there are people who would never know there are people who would never know about your church or maybe even say about your church or maybe even say about your church or maybe even say there would be people who don't who there would be people who don't who there would be people who don't who would the only way they could be would the only way they could be would the only way they could be introduced to christ and this and the introduced to christ and this and the introduced to christ and this and the good news of of jesus would be on the good news of of jesus would be on the good news of of jesus would be on the internet it's the only place they're internet it's the only place they're internet it's the only place they're gonna get access you know i i can think gonna get access you know i i can think gonna get access you know i i can think of a guy i know in ottawa canada i just of a guy i know in ottawa canada i just of a guy i know in ottawa canada i just met him uh recently at a wedding and it met him uh recently at a wedding and it met him uh recently at a wedding and it wasn't a quote-unquote christian wedding wasn't a quote-unquote christian wedding wasn't a quote-unquote christian wedding so it surprised me when the so it surprised me when the so it surprised me when the this groomsman was quoting cs lewis in this groomsman was quoting cs lewis in this groomsman was quoting cs lewis in his speech so i had to go up to him and his speech so i had to go up to him and his speech so i had to go up to him and find out his story and yeah he had just find out his story and yeah he had just find out his story and yeah he had just become a christian recently through become a christian recently through become a christian recently through youtube youtube youtube and from there you know you don't stay and from there you know you don't stay and from there you know you don't stay on youtube you go and you want to on youtube you go and you want to on youtube you go and you want to find a local church you wanna he's part find a local church you wanna he's part find a local church you wanna he's part of a community he's brought his family of a community he's brought his family of a community he's brought his family with him and his kids and his wife and with him and his kids and his wife and with him and his kids and his wife and they're all trying to figure it out now they're all trying to figure it out now they're all trying to figure it out now um and you know what what's this guy um and you know what what's this guy um and you know what what's this guy that she married and what has become of that she married and what has become of that she married and what has become of him uh that he's changed you know into him uh that he's changed you know into him uh that he's changed you know into being a christian all of a sudden and so being a christian all of a sudden and so being a christian all of a sudden and so they're working that all out in the they're working that all out in the they're working that all out in the context of a real physical community in context of a real physical community in context of a real physical community in a local church but um he's continuing to a local church but um he's continuing to a local church but um he's continuing to go to the internet to get more go to the internet to get more go to the internet to get more information to ask his big philosophical information to ask his big philosophical information to ask his big philosophical questions he has big questions he has big questions he has big um questions about life because he was a um questions about life because he was a um questions about life because he was a staunch atheist

staunch atheist staunch atheist and so of course these are the analogies and so of course these are the analogies and so of course these are the analogies from the day from the day from the day right that right that right that that you're going to meet jesus or meet that you're going to meet jesus or meet that you're going to meet jesus or meet a church that you never would have had a church that you never would have had a church that you never would have had exposure to online that's the exposure to online that's the exposure to online that's the introduction the intention is to get in introduction the intention is to get in introduction the intention is to get in person but then even after you come to person but then even after you come to person but then even after you come to church in person or you come to the church in person or you come to the church in person or you come to the event or the bible study or the alpha event or the bible study or the alpha event or the bible study or the alpha group or whatever it is that you do group or whatever it is that you do group or whatever it is that you do you're going to keep interacting with you're going to keep interacting with you're going to keep interacting with them online just like we all do them online just like we all do them online just like we all do um and so that's what i mean by digital um and so that's what i mean by digital um and so that's what i mean by digital first but not digital only first but not digital only first but not digital only it's the first way it's a primary way i it's the first way it's a primary way i it's the first way it's a primary way i mean we can get into some nitty gritty mean we can get into some nitty gritty mean we can get into some nitty gritty about you know if you have a about you know if you have a about you know if you have a if you have a promo card uh for a if you have a promo card uh for a if you have a promo card uh for a upcoming event your summer camp for kids upcoming event your summer camp for kids upcoming event your summer camp for kids or something or something or something like those parents are going to expect like those parents are going to expect like those parents are going to expect that they're going to register their that they're going to register their that they're going to register their child for the event digitally they're child for the event digitally they're child for the event digitally they're going to go online that's the going to go online that's the going to go online that's the expectations now of any parent of young expectations now of any parent of young expectations now of any parent of young children they're going to go online to children they're going to go online to children they're going to go online to register their child for the summer camp register their child for the summer camp register their child for the summer camp or the or the or the whatever christmas party or whatever the whatever christmas party or whatever the whatever christmas party or whatever the heck it is and uh heck it is and uh heck it is and uh but you could give them a print card but you could give them a print card but you could give them a print card like a physical interaction but the best like a physical interaction but the best like a physical interaction but the best information the most accurate the information the most accurate the information the most accurate the primary way that they're going to ask a primary way that they're going to ask a primary way that they're going to ask a question sign up etc is going to be question sign up etc is going to be question sign up etc is going to be online um online um online um that's that is the expectation of people that's that is the expectation of people that's that is the expectation of people even if they're coming to a physical even if they're coming to a physical even if they're coming to a physical in-person event they don't want to most in-person event they don't want to most in-person event they don't want to most people don't want to go and write their people don't want to go and write their people don't want to go and write their name with a pen on a paper in the lobby name with a pen on a paper in the lobby name with a pen on a paper in the lobby they want a digital experience of that they want a digital experience of that they want a digital experience of that and um of course we need to accommodate and um of course we need to accommodate and um of course we need to accommodate for seniors and other people who you for seniors and other people who you for seniors and other people who you know we can have an alternative way for know we can have an alternative way for know we can have an alternative way for them to do some things by calling the

them to do some things by calling the them to do some things by calling the church office or whatever that is and church office or whatever that is and church office or whatever that is and they can be walked someone you know the they can be walked someone you know the they can be walked someone you know the the person at the front desk of the the person at the front desk of the the person at the front desk of the church can walk in on the phone walk church can walk in on the phone walk church can walk in on the phone walk that senior um through signing up on the that senior um through signing up on the that senior um through signing up on the online registry like they can do it for online registry like they can do it for online registry like they can do it for the person over the phone or whatever the person over the phone or whatever the person over the phone or whatever there's ways we can accommodate for there's ways we can accommodate for there's ways we can accommodate for people but overall digital first people but overall digital first people but overall digital first that's and i'll say from the comms that's and i'll say from the comms that's and i'll say from the comms perspective perspective perspective um being the the local church um being the the local church um being the the local church communicator nothing was more upsetting communicator nothing was more upsetting communicator nothing was more upsetting than when than when than when either there was a print mistake either there was a print mistake either there was a print mistake it was misspelled or the times dates it was misspelled or the times dates it was misspelled or the times dates details changed after you already details changed after you already details changed after you already printed and spent all the money so if printed and spent all the money so if printed and spent all the money so if you just have on your print card you just have on your print card you just have on your print card um um um vague information that directs them to vague information that directs them to vague information that directs them to the website the website the website it costs zero dollars to update edit it costs zero dollars to update edit it costs zero dollars to update edit change correct yeah um add more details change correct yeah um add more details change correct yeah um add more details jason i ever tell you by the time that jason i ever tell you by the time that jason i ever tell you by the time that when i was serving at a church in when i was serving at a church in when i was serving at a church in ontario uh printed i think i don't know ontario uh printed i think i don't know ontario uh printed i think i don't know 15 or 20 000 postcards to go out to our 15 or 20 000 postcards to go out to our 15 or 20 000 postcards to go out to our community and i put my home phone number community and i put my home phone number community and i put my home phone number on on on i didn't notice it until my wife was i didn't notice it until my wife was i didn't notice it until my wife was looking at it she's like why is her home looking at it she's like why is her home looking at it she's like why is her home phone number right here phone number right here phone number right here that is a problem that is a problem so that is a problem that is a problem so that is a problem that is a problem so don't do that by just like do that you don't do that by just like do that you don't do that by just like do that you know just say like i don't know what the know just say like i don't know what the know just say like i don't know what the what did you say the event was you know what did you say the event was you know what did you say the event was you know it's christmas or whatever christmas at it's christmas or whatever christmas at it's christmas or whatever christmas at the church the church the church you could maybe have the the days or you could maybe have the the days or you could maybe have the the days or something but then all the details of something but then all the details of something but then all the details of times and how to sign up and what's times and how to sign up and what's times and how to sign up and what's going on and whatever the details are going on and whatever the details are going on and whatever the details are that they need put them online so they that they need put them online so they that they need put them online so they can change

often the things need to go in church often the things need to go in church world things need to go to print before world things need to go to print before world things need to go to print before the leader knows the answer to that the leader knows the answer to that the leader knows the answer to that information and so information and so information and so send them to the website you can you can send them to the website you can you can send them to the website you can you can print the card before uh before you even print the card before uh before you even print the card before uh before you even know all the details yeah that's really know all the details yeah that's really know all the details yeah that's really that's really convenient and and i think that's really convenient and and i think that's really convenient and and i think you're absolutely right i think digital you're absolutely right i think digital you're absolutely right i think digital first i'll give you an example this first i'll give you an example this first i'll give you an example this weekend our church we had a baptism weekend our church we had a baptism weekend our church we had a baptism weekend and they shared a video where weekend and they shared a video where weekend and they shared a video where it was five ladies that do not live in it was five ladies that do not live in it was five ladies that do not live in the area they're from out of state the area they're from out of state the area they're from out of state they met at our church online they met at our church online they met at our church online and they all became friends and they and they all became friends and they and they all became friends and they have a small group that meets regularly have a small group that meets regularly have a small group that meets regularly well they all well they all well they all wanted to get baptized they had never wanted to get baptized they had never wanted to get baptized they had never been baptized before so they all decided been baptized before so they all decided been baptized before so they all decided to fly to phoenix come to church and get to fly to phoenix come to church and get to fly to phoenix come to church and get baptized at the same time baptized at the same time baptized at the same time and so here's a group of ladies who who and so here's a group of ladies who who and so here's a group of ladies who who met digitally met digitally met digitally okay and it was facilitated by our okay and it was facilitated by our okay and it was facilitated by our church developed that relationship church developed that relationship church developed that relationship answered a lot of questions all decide answered a lot of questions all decide answered a lot of questions all decide so then they eventually came together so then they eventually came together so then they eventually came together hug each other get baptized and have hug each other get baptized and have hug each other get baptized and have that special moment together they are that special moment together they are that special moment together they are lifelong friends from here on out right lifelong friends from here on out right lifelong friends from here on out right they can continue to do life together they can continue to do life together they can continue to do life together even though they're in different they're even though they're in different they're even though they're in different they're in different states in different states in different states and i just think that's that's a really and i just think that's that's a really and i just think that's that's a really cool picture and they can be real cool picture and they can be real cool picture and they can be real relationships there's some of the relationships there's some of the relationships there's some of the statistics too i'm curious about how statistics too i'm curious about how statistics too i'm curious about how they've changed i'm maybe my dad is out they've changed i'm maybe my dad is out they've changed i'm maybe my dad is out of date but this idea of like something of date but this idea of like something of date but this idea of like something like if you're under the sorry this is like if you're under the sorry this is like if you're under the sorry this is my dog yelling that's okay if you're if my dog yelling that's okay if you're if my dog yelling that's okay if you're if you're under the age of 40 you're under the age of 40 you're under the age of 40 um online relationships you would view um online relationships you would view um online relationships you would view as no different than in person whether as no different than in person whether as no different than in person whether you've met in person or not they're real

you've met in person or not they're real you've met in person or not they're real relationships and people over 40 have a relationships and people over 40 have a relationships and people over 40 have a harder time reconciling that they're the harder time reconciling that they're the harder time reconciling that they're the same or as as real same or as as real same or as as real um um um but but people who've grown up with it but but people who've grown up with it but but people who've grown up with it which is now kind of the under 40 year which is now kind of the under 40 year which is now kind of the under 40 year olds they they view it as the same olds they they view it as the same olds they they view it as the same these half are older and half are these half are older and half are these half are older and half are younger i think it's the lifestyle where younger i think it's the lifestyle where younger i think it's the lifestyle where you are you are you are in life you know if you know i don't i in life you know if you know i don't i in life you know if you know i don't i don't know the stories of the of these don't know the stories of the of these don't know the stories of the of these gals all i know is gals all i know is gals all i know is they were online they came together they were online they came together they were online they came together um celebrate this moment together and um celebrate this moment together and um celebrate this moment together and i'm sure in the future they're going to i'm sure in the future they're going to i'm sure in the future they're going to do trips together and whatnot and that's do trips together and whatnot and that's do trips together and whatnot and that's that is real community yeah in a digital that is real community yeah in a digital that is real community yeah in a digital world and world and world and you know i you know i you know i i think ideally you want to have more in i think ideally you want to have more in i think ideally you want to have more in person but that doesn't mean it has to person but that doesn't mean it has to person but that doesn't mean it has to be that way and i think as church be that way and i think as church be that way and i think as church communication communication communication directors and people that are in church directors and people that are in church directors and people that are in church communications we have to understand and communications we have to understand and communications we have to understand and facilitate that we just are we are facilitate that we just are we are facilitate that we just are we are creating the platform let god do what creating the platform let god do what creating the platform let god do what god's gonna do best and the holy spirit god's gonna do best and the holy spirit god's gonna do best and the holy spirit work through these people we just have work through these people we just have work through these people we just have to bring them together and have a to bring them together and have a to bring them together and have a platform to do that you know what i'm platform to do that you know what i'm platform to do that you know what i'm saying saying saying it's pretty important i think we saw it's pretty important i think we saw it's pretty important i think we saw often over overlook that often over overlook that often over overlook that yeah i like our the way our friend yeah i like our the way our friend yeah i like our the way our friend nathan art puts it you know he's like nathan art puts it you know he's like nathan art puts it you know he's like use digital as a step towards use digital as a step towards use digital as a step towards the in person right using digital as a the in person right using digital as a the in person right using digital as a step towards incarnational ultimately i step towards incarnational ultimately i step towards incarnational ultimately i think we all we know we all know we at think we all we know we all know we at think we all we know we all know we at least at the very least we value at a least at the very least we value at a least at the very least we value at a very high level the kind of discipleship very high level the kind of discipleship very high level the kind of discipleship that can take place that can take place that can take place when life is being experienced together when life is being experienced together when life is being experienced together more so than when it's being you know

more so than when it's being you know more so than when it's being you know experienced online and again not to experienced online and again not to experienced online and again not to devalue the impact that an online devalue the impact that an online devalue the impact that an online relationship and online connections can relationship and online connections can relationship and online connections can have um but you know the the level of have um but you know the the level of have um but you know the the level of depth depth depth of a relationship and the impact that of a relationship and the impact that of a relationship and the impact that those relationships have in your life those relationships have in your life those relationships have in your life are going to be much more um accentuated are going to be much more um accentuated are going to be much more um accentuated in in the context of in-person in in the context of in-person in in the context of in-person you know you know you know authentic authentic in-person authentic authentic in-person authentic authentic in-person incarnational relationship so um thanks incarnational relationship so um thanks incarnational relationship so um thanks for for for uh kind of diving into that for for for uh kind of diving into that for for for uh kind of diving into that i just wanted a little more clarity you i just wanted a little more clarity you i just wanted a little more clarity you know we in the in the roles that we get know we in the in the roles that we get know we in the in the roles that we get to play we have a lot of conversations to play we have a lot of conversations to play we have a lot of conversations with a lot of churches about digital and with a lot of churches about digital and with a lot of churches about digital and and what we're really doing and you know and what we're really doing and you know and what we're really doing and you know we we have 350 400 different churches we we have 350 400 different churches we we have 350 400 different churches that we get to work with and we get to that we get to work with and we get to that we get to work with and we get to see all kinds of different things that a see all kinds of different things that a see all kinds of different things that a lot of churches are doing everybody's lot of churches are doing everybody's lot of churches are doing everybody's trying to find that trying to find that trying to find that silver bullet the magic thing that's silver bullet the magic thing that's silver bullet the magic thing that's going to make digital church and digital going to make digital church and digital going to make digital church and digital connections work and some are seeing connections work and some are seeing connections work and some are seeing some some some fruit from the work and the efforts that fruit from the work and the efforts that fruit from the work and the efforts that they're doing um but i you know i can't they're doing um but i you know i can't they're doing um but i you know i can't help but champion those that are help but champion those that are help but champion those that are using their online connections as a way using their online connections as a way using their online connections as a way of deliberately moving people along a of deliberately moving people along a of deliberately moving people along a pathway to eventually make an in-person pathway to eventually make an in-person pathway to eventually make an in-person connection and let's just face it you connection and let's just face it you connection and let's just face it you know most pastors i was a pastor for 17 know most pastors i was a pastor for 17 know most pastors i was a pastor for 17 years and years and years and most pastors in the end of the day we're most pastors in the end of the day we're most pastors in the end of the day we're really interested in people coming really interested in people coming really interested in people coming through the doors that we can get to through the doors that we can get to through the doors that we can get to know that we can actually invest in and know that we can actually invest in and know that we can actually invest in and and you know experience life with even and you know experience life with even and you know experience life with even though online views are great youtube though online views are great youtube though online views are great youtube analytics you know can puff you up and

analytics you know can puff you up and analytics you know can puff you up and make you feel really good um at the end make you feel really good um at the end make you feel really good um at the end of the day we really want to meet people of the day we really want to meet people of the day we really want to meet people in person so in person so in person so but i love i love the way that you you but i love i love the way that you you but i love i love the way that you you highlighted that and yeah yeah that was highlighted that and yeah yeah that was highlighted that and yeah yeah that was pretty cool um pretty cool um pretty cool um joanna who are some of the people that joanna who are some of the people that joanna who are some of the people that you're you're you're looking to looking to looking to uh as you continue to try to uh as you continue to try to uh as you continue to try to grow in your skills and and uh get grow in your skills and and uh get grow in your skills and and uh get better at what you do you and your team better at what you do you and your team better at what you do you and your team who are you looking to learning from who are you looking to learning from who are you looking to learning from leaning into that's um leaning into that's um leaning into that's um you know anybody we might have heard of you know anybody we might have heard of you know anybody we might have heard of or anybody that we might not be familiar or anybody that we might not be familiar or anybody that we might not be familiar with who uh yeah we can highlight um with who uh yeah we can highlight um with who uh yeah we can highlight um there aren't too many that i'm i mean there aren't too many that i'm i mean there aren't too many that i'm i mean when i'm thinking about the the church when i'm thinking about the the church when i'm thinking about the the church space i mean broadly i you know there's space i mean broadly i you know there's space i mean broadly i you know there's lots of leaders i listen to but i think lots of leaders i listen to but i think lots of leaders i listen to but i think when we're talking about marketing and when we're talking about marketing and when we're talking about marketing and communications i'm really looking more communications i'm really looking more communications i'm really looking more to just to just to just people on the internet like chris doe people on the internet like chris doe people on the internet like chris doe who runs fut the future this future who runs fut the future this future who runs fut the future this future without an e on the end his endeavor is without an e on the end his endeavor is without an e on the end his endeavor is to help a million to help a million to help a million creatives uh do their work so he has a creatives uh do their work so he has a creatives uh do their work so he has a lot of great thinking on lot of great thinking on lot of great thinking on um communication and websites and design um communication and websites and design um communication and websites and design and branding and all this kind of stuff and branding and all this kind of stuff and branding and all this kind of stuff i think of a guy named jt barnett who's i think of a guy named jt barnett who's i think of a guy named jt barnett who's just this young 20-something just this young 20-something just this young 20-something swagger-filled tick-tock guy but he's swagger-filled tick-tock guy but he's swagger-filled tick-tock guy but he's talking about tick-tock as a business talking about tick-tock as a business talking about tick-tock as a business he's talking to organizations he he he's talking to organizations he he he's talking to organizations he he helps organizations find someone to be helps organizations find someone to be helps organizations find someone to be like the face and voice of their like the face and voice of their like the face and voice of their tick-tock channel tick-tock channel tick-tock channel and he um he's just very interesting and he um he's just very interesting and he um he's just very interesting ideas and thinking about this new wave

ideas and thinking about this new wave ideas and thinking about this new wave of media how do we how do we engage of media how do we how do we engage of media how do we how do we engage people with things like tick tock where people with things like tick tock where people with things like tick tock where people are spending increasingly more people are spending increasingly more people are spending increasingly more time time time of all age people are spending more time of all age people are spending more time of all age people are spending more time um um um i don't know who else am i listening to i don't know who else am i listening to i don't know who else am i listening to these days these days these days i i don't know it's hard it's sometimes i i don't know it's hard it's sometimes i i don't know it's hard it's sometimes hard it's until i like literally go hard it's until i like literally go hard it's until i like literally go through who are what are those podcasts through who are what are those podcasts through who are what are those podcasts i'm doing right now and i'm doing right now and i'm doing right now and um um um recently i've gotten into donald recently i've gotten into donald recently i've gotten into donald miller's uh content i wrote story i mean miller's uh content i wrote story i mean miller's uh content i wrote story i mean i've always known about it but i've been i've always known about it but i've been i've always known about it but i've been binging a few of his podcasts lately binging a few of his podcasts lately binging a few of his podcasts lately so it changes i go through phases so it changes i go through phases so it changes i go through phases there's i would say i i don't um there there's i would say i i don't um there there's i would say i i don't um there isn't one that i isn't one that i isn't one that i follow most closely but i'm trying to be follow most closely but i'm trying to be follow most closely but i'm trying to be aware even even in like you know when i aware even even in like you know when i aware even even in like you know when i was in church was in church was in church like working in the local church one of like working in the local church one of like working in the local church one of the things that would inspire me was the things that would inspire me was the things that would inspire me was because i live in a downtown it was the because i live in a downtown it was the because i live in a downtown it was the the shop windows of like the flagship the shop windows of like the flagship the shop windows of like the flagship stores of big brands i wanted to see how stores of big brands i wanted to see how stores of big brands i wanted to see how they decorated their signage and the they decorated their signage and the they decorated their signage and the look and feel of their branding was look and feel of their branding was look and feel of their branding was always inspiring to me and what we were always inspiring to me and what we were always inspiring to me and what we were doing for christmas or easter or doing for christmas or easter or doing for christmas or easter or something at church so something at church so something at church so uh inspiration is everywhere uh inspiration is everywhere uh inspiration is everywhere that's cool hey back up detour a little that's cool hey back up detour a little that's cool hey back up detour a little bit bit bit tick-tock okay we can't spend a ton of tick-tock okay we can't spend a ton of tick-tock okay we can't spend a ton of time on this and because it could be a time on this and because it could be a time on this and because it could be a black hole just like spending time on black hole just like spending time on black hole just like spending time on tick tock can be a black hole yes but tick tock can be a black hole yes but tick tock can be a black hole yes but that's true that's true that's true are you coaching many churches in the are you coaching many churches in the are you coaching many churches in the space of tick tock you see any churches space of tick tock you see any churches space of tick tock you see any churches utilizing tick tock in a way that is utilizing tick tock in a way that is utilizing tick tock in a way that is moving the needle for them moving the needle for them moving the needle for them yeah um i that's a good question um

i that's a good question um in general uh the trick about video is in general uh the trick about video is in general uh the trick about video is it the perception is it can cost a lot it the perception is it can cost a lot it the perception is it can cost a lot more than just doing photography and so more than just doing photography and so more than just doing photography and so it takes a lot longer for churches to it takes a lot longer for churches to it takes a lot longer for churches to turn the ship to do the new thing so turn the ship to do the new thing so turn the ship to do the new thing so people are just feeling great like people are just feeling great like people are just feeling great like they're getting the handle on how to do they're getting the handle on how to do they're getting the handle on how to do nice photos on instagram and now nice photos on instagram and now nice photos on instagram and now everyone's saying that doesn't really everyone's saying that doesn't really everyone's saying that doesn't really matter anymore try video so matter anymore try video so matter anymore try video so i think at some level you know just as i think at some level you know just as i think at some level you know just as to be honest i'm trying to be honest i'm trying to be honest i'm trying most recently on my own instagram most recently on my own instagram most recently on my own instagram um to play around with uh reels um to play around with uh reels um to play around with uh reels you know so they're on tick tock as well you know so they're on tick tock as well you know so they're on tick tock as well but trying to figure out but trying to figure out but trying to figure out um um um consistently regular quick little clips consistently regular quick little clips consistently regular quick little clips and what i'm trying to do is is like and and what i'm trying to do is is like and and what i'm trying to do is is like and i keep asking my team how can we do this i keep asking my team how can we do this i keep asking my team how can we do this as sustainably as possible it's only as sustainably as possible it's only as sustainably as possible it's only going to work if it's easy going to work if it's easy going to work if it's easy light light light fun to do and so i'm literally just uh fun to do and so i'm literally just uh fun to do and so i'm literally just uh picking up my phone talking into the picking up my phone talking into the picking up my phone talking into the phone phone phone um you know trying to keep it as basic um you know trying to keep it as basic um you know trying to keep it as basic as possible there's lots of you know i as possible there's lots of you know i as possible there's lots of you know i would say i would you know as a really would say i would you know as a really would say i would you know as a really uh uh uh you know just said directed for churches you know just said directed for churches you know just said directed for churches i would lean away if i was a church from i would lean away if i was a church from i would lean away if i was a church from following trends of doing tick tock following trends of doing tick tock following trends of doing tick tock dances and and dances and and dances and and you know the the common like whatever you know the the common like whatever you know the the common like whatever the like the like the like sound clip of the week is that sound clip of the week is that sound clip of the week is that everyone's doing it's hard to keep up everyone's doing it's hard to keep up everyone's doing it's hard to keep up with that stuff it is hard to be with that stuff it is hard to be with that stuff it is hard to be sustainable yeah if you have capacity sustainable yeah if you have capacity sustainable yeah if you have capacity you know have fun and try it i'm not you know have fun and try it i'm not you know have fun and try it i'm not saying don't have fun but uh i think saying don't have fun but uh i think saying don't have fun but uh i think it's really hard to feel the pressure to it's really hard to feel the pressure to it's really hard to feel the pressure to keep up with that where i think there keep up with that where i think there keep up with that where i think there are other things that churches do really

are other things that churches do really are other things that churches do really well so like cutting a clip from your well so like cutting a clip from your well so like cutting a clip from your sermon that you're producing every week sermon that you're producing every week sermon that you're producing every week anyways or you know having the pastor anyways or you know having the pastor anyways or you know having the pastor jump on on a sunday afternoon or the jump on on a sunday afternoon or the jump on on a sunday afternoon or the monday morning monday morning monday morning and give an extra thought out of what and give an extra thought out of what and give an extra thought out of what they couldn't just film yourself saying they couldn't just film yourself saying they couldn't just film yourself saying the thing you didn't have time to say on the thing you didn't have time to say on the thing you didn't have time to say on sunday sunday sunday and doing things that feel like the path and doing things that feel like the path and doing things that feel like the path of least resistance of least resistance of least resistance is how i would say churches should is how i would say churches should is how i would say churches should approach tick tock because i think approach tick tock because i think approach tick tock because i think there's a lot of pressure to do all there's a lot of pressure to do all there's a lot of pressure to do all these other things that you can do with these other things that you can do with these other things that you can do with tick tock but a lot of people they think tick tock but a lot of people they think tick tock but a lot of people they think i don't have the capacity for that so i don't have the capacity for that so i don't have the capacity for that so then they don't do anything at all then they don't do anything at all then they don't do anything at all and i would say if that's where the and i would say if that's where the and i would say if that's where the attention is that means that's where the attention is that means that's where the attention is that means that's where the people are that's the marketplace of the people are that's the marketplace of the people are that's the marketplace of the day to reach especially under 30 year day to reach especially under 30 year day to reach especially under 30 year olds so if you're trying to reach those olds so if you're trying to reach those olds so if you're trying to reach those people what is a light and ease the yolk people what is a light and ease the yolk people what is a light and ease the yolk easy and the burden light way to do it easy and the burden light way to do it easy and the burden light way to do it yeah don't feel like you have to be a an yeah don't feel like you have to be a an yeah don't feel like you have to be a an expert at it expert at it expert at it right out of the shoot no nobody is you right out of the shoot no nobody is you right out of the shoot no nobody is you know and so just start like your point know and so just start like your point know and so just start like your point just just just try start try start try start oh but churches you know so often we oh but churches you know so often we oh but churches you know so often we have this perfectionist mentality and we have this perfectionist mentality and we have this perfectionist mentality and we feel like we have to do things at this feel like we have to do things at this feel like we have to do things at this high high quality level and if we can't high high quality level and if we can't high high quality level and if we can't do them at the highest quality level do them at the highest quality level do them at the highest quality level then we're not going to we're not going then we're not going to we're not going then we're not going to we're not going to do them at at all and you know i i to do them at at all and you know i i to do them at at all and you know i i think that's actually i think it was think that's actually i think it was think that's actually i think it was rich burch that recently was talking rich burch that recently was talking rich burch that recently was talking about that on our show was that you know about that on our show was that you know about that on our show was that you know once upon a time he said he prescribed once upon a time he said he prescribed once upon a time he said he prescribed to this idea that you know the quality

to this idea that you know the quality to this idea that you know the quality of the weekend service and the of the weekend service and the of the weekend service and the engagement was the most important thing engagement was the most important thing engagement was the most important thing and he's pivoted and realized that and he's pivoted and realized that and he's pivoted and realized that consistency is far more important than consistency is far more important than consistency is far more important than the quality the quality the quality do the best that you can do it do the best that you can do it do the best that you can do it consistently and in anything that i consistently and in anything that i consistently and in anything that i coach churches on in terms of a new coach churches on in terms of a new coach churches on in terms of a new initiative you know we initiative you know we initiative you know we we talk to church leaders all the time we talk to church leaders all the time we talk to church leaders all the time about you know repurposing sermon about you know repurposing sermon about you know repurposing sermon content and doing new things i say i can content and doing new things i say i can content and doing new things i say i can give you 10 different things today that give you 10 different things today that give you 10 different things today that you probably should be doing with your you probably should be doing with your you probably should be doing with your sermon content but if you'll just pick sermon content but if you'll just pick sermon content but if you'll just pick one one that you think is one one that you think is one one that you think is sustainable that you can do consistently sustainable that you can do consistently sustainable that you can do consistently over a long period of time just start over a long period of time just start over a long period of time just start there don't try to do all 10 at least do there don't try to do all 10 at least do there don't try to do all 10 at least do one and so i think even looking at that one and so i think even looking at that one and so i think even looking at that tick tock i'm you know i'm i'm an tick tock i'm you know i'm i'm an tick tock i'm you know i'm i'm an incredible novice and i'm ignorant when incredible novice and i'm ignorant when incredible novice and i'm ignorant when it comes to tick tock i mean other than it comes to tick tock i mean other than it comes to tick tock i mean other than when my son shoves a video in front of when my son shoves a video in front of when my son shoves a video in front of my face and says hey here watch this my face and says hey here watch this my face and says hey here watch this this is a great tick tock like i'm not this is a great tick tock like i'm not this is a great tick tock like i'm not really i don't i i'll scroll through really i don't i i'll scroll through really i don't i i'll scroll through reels every once in a while but reels every once in a while but reels every once in a while but you know i don't i don't really spend you know i don't i don't really spend you know i don't i don't really spend any time on it but i'm just kind of any time on it but i'm just kind of any time on it but i'm just kind of curious because one of these days i'm curious because one of these days i'm curious because one of these days i'm going to have that conversation with the going to have that conversation with the going to have that conversation with the church and they're going to say hey help church and they're going to say hey help church and they're going to say hey help me with tick-tock and i'm like call me with tick-tock and i'm like call me with tick-tock and i'm like call joanna i'm not really sure joanna i'm not really sure joanna i'm not really sure [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] so you better get it figured out joanna so you better get it figured out joanna so you better get it figured out joanna that's well i'm working on it i'm that's well i'm working on it i'm that's well i'm working on it i'm working on it and that's it like maybe working on it and that's it like maybe working on it and that's it like maybe it's the same theme as as back to the it's the same theme as as back to the it's the same theme as as back to the earlier part of the conversation where earlier part of the conversation where earlier part of the conversation where we had this my philosophy of tell the we had this my philosophy of tell the we had this my philosophy of tell the truth but what i was trying to my heart truth but what i was trying to my heart truth but what i was trying to my heart behind that is not to say don't you know behind that is not to say don't you know behind that is not to say don't you know you do you don't have to make your you do you don't have to make your you do you don't have to make your church deliberately look bad but just church deliberately look bad but just church deliberately look bad but just like tell the truth is and be honest

like tell the truth is and be honest like tell the truth is and be honest about how it really is in the same way about how it really is in the same way about how it really is in the same way with tick tock we're not saying like do with tick tock we're not saying like do with tick tock we're not saying like do a bad job a bad job a bad job but just use what you can sustainably but just use what you can sustainably but just use what you can sustainably and i think sustainability is a big and i think sustainability is a big and i think sustainability is a big question you know who's going to be question you know who's going to be question you know who's going to be doing it doing it doing it really practically who on your team is really practically who on your team is really practically who on your team is going to be the one to do it um how going to be the one to do it um how going to be the one to do it um how often can they do it can they batch that often can they do it can they batch that often can they do it can they batch that content to film a bunch of things all at content to film a bunch of things all at content to film a bunch of things all at once once once um you know what's the process of uh um you know what's the process of uh um you know what's the process of uh uploads or how you know the whole uploads or how you know the whole uploads or how you know the whole thinking through that whole thing and thinking through that whole thing and thinking through that whole thing and then what's the most sustainable easy then what's the most sustainable easy then what's the most sustainable easy way to do it and from there you can get way to do it and from there you can get way to do it and from there you can get fancier you know you can you can as you fancier you know you can you can as you fancier you know you can you can as you get to know the platform um but i think get to know the platform um but i think get to know the platform um but i think the important thing is just get started the important thing is just get started the important thing is just get started not to be bad at it but you can't i just not to be bad at it but you can't i just not to be bad at it but you can't i just posted i just posted a reel today posted i just posted a reel today posted i just posted a reel today that so whenever people are listening to that so whenever people are listening to that so whenever people are listening to this they can go find it on my page it's this they can go find it on my page it's this they can go find it on my page it's it's basically it's basically it's basically it's from it's from it's from the artist's way it's a book called the the artist's way it's a book called the the artist's way it's a book called the artist way where it says you can't be artist way where it says you can't be artist way where it says you can't be learning something and looking good at learning something and looking good at learning something and looking good at the same time you have to choose do you the same time you have to choose do you the same time you have to choose do you want to look good or do you want to want to look good or do you want to want to look good or do you want to learn do you want to grow learn do you want to grow learn do you want to grow and the only way to grow and learn a new and the only way to grow and learn a new and the only way to grow and learn a new platform is you're not gonna love the platform is you're not gonna love the platform is you're not gonna love the first first first 20 tick tocks that you post as much as 20 tick tocks that you post as much as 20 tick tocks that you post as much as the next 20. yeah just part of it the next 20. yeah just part of it the next 20. yeah just part of it what i think i always say that when it what i think i always say that when it what i think i always say that when it comes to stuff half the battle is comes to stuff half the battle is comes to stuff half the battle is creating the content the other half is creating the content the other half is creating the content the other half is you know posting it and doing that kind you know posting it and doing that kind you know posting it and doing that kind of a thing well of a thing well of a thing well if you think about what your pastor just if you think about what your pastor just if you think about what your pastor just did he probably spent 15 or 20 hours did he probably spent 15 or 20 hours did he probably spent 15 or 20 hours creating a message creating a message creating a message right start there um i really like your

right start there um i really like your right start there um i really like your idea you do something else with it idea you do something else with it idea you do something else with it besides the sunday exactly yeah or post besides the sunday exactly yeah or post besides the sunday exactly yeah or post on your you put on your website and then on your you put on your website and then on your you put on your website and then you think that's good you think that's good you think that's good i really like your idea on maybe a i really like your idea on maybe a i really like your idea on maybe a monday morning monday morning monday morning like last you know how we always land like last you know how we always land like last you know how we always land with four takeaways right maybe maybe with four takeaways right maybe maybe with four takeaways right maybe maybe you uh have that fifth takeaway but you uh have that fifth takeaway but you uh have that fifth takeaway but that's gonna be shared on monday because that's gonna be shared on monday because that's gonna be shared on monday because you're you're you're you're sharing that you're bringing more you're sharing that you're bringing more you're sharing that you're bringing more people back into some engagement and people back into some engagement and people back into some engagement and something that can be used to share with something that can be used to share with something that can be used to share with others so yeah i like that idea and he others so yeah i like that idea and he others so yeah i like that idea and he can record it he or she they can record can record it he or she they can record can record it he or she they can record it on sunday it on sunday it on sunday they're thinking about it like oh there they're thinking about it like oh there they're thinking about it like oh there was this thing we just didn't have time was this thing we just didn't have time was this thing we just didn't have time but there's there's this but there's there's this but there's there's this little nugget that i learned about little nugget that i learned about little nugget that i learned about the original hebrew word but we didn't the original hebrew word but we didn't the original hebrew word but we didn't get a chance to talk about it yeah he get a chance to talk about it yeah he get a chance to talk about it yeah he can record that right away when he's can record that right away when he's can record that right away when he's excited and i would say if he records it excited and i would say if he records it excited and i would say if he records it on the sunday maybe the other pieces he on the sunday maybe the other pieces he on the sunday maybe the other pieces he probably like has his hair and his shirt probably like has his hair and his shirt probably like has his hair and his shirt looking okay like he's not scrubby and looking okay like he's not scrubby and looking okay like he's not scrubby and whatever if he's been in front of people whatever if he's been in front of people whatever if he's been in front of people so it's probably a good day for him to so it's probably a good day for him to so it's probably a good day for him to film something and he can just talk to film something and he can just talk to film something and he can just talk to his his phone for a minute then his his phone for a minute then his his phone for a minute then whether he or someone else can post it whether he or someone else can post it whether he or someone else can post it and if they build their sermon like with and if they build their sermon like with and if they build their sermon like with that intentionality that on sunday that intentionality that on sunday that intentionality that on sunday afternoon i also record this afternoon i also record this afternoon i also record this then you got a weekly then you got a weekly then you got a weekly rhythm yeah it's not like rhythm yeah it's not like rhythm yeah it's not like oh gosh we forgot to ask him no he oh gosh we forgot to ask him no he oh gosh we forgot to ask him no he builds it into his builds it into his builds it into his thing right so that would be you know thing right so that would be you know thing right so that would be you know the drive or the drive home right the the drive or the drive home right the the drive or the drive home right the he hops in his car at the end of the he hops in his car at the end of the he hops in his car at the end of the sunday he sits in and just give like one sunday he sits in and just give like one sunday he sits in and just give like one minute minute minute what's the spirit what's the spirit what's the spirit about

about about you know you know you know you know you know you know just how about the day and something just how about the day and something just how about the day and something that he didn't have time to get into or that he didn't have time to get into or that he didn't have time to get into or something he wants to reemphasize or something he wants to reemphasize or something he wants to reemphasize or whatever it might be as a pastor who's whatever it might be as a pastor who's whatever it might be as a pastor who's preached hundreds of sermons in my life preached hundreds of sermons in my life preached hundreds of sermons in my life i will tell you the hardest thing in the i will tell you the hardest thing in the i will tell you the hardest thing in the world is looking at the content that you world is looking at the content that you world is looking at the content that you have and deciding what needs to be cut have and deciding what needs to be cut have and deciding what needs to be cut from sunday so that you don't preach from sunday so that you don't preach from sunday so that you don't preach into people's lunch reservations into people's lunch reservations into people's lunch reservations and and and and and and and what you're sharing here is actually and what you're sharing here is actually and what you're sharing here is actually the antidote western church problem yeah the antidote western church problem yeah the antidote western church problem yeah it's the it's it's the antidote to that it's the it's it's the antidote to that it's the it's it's the antidote to that is is is you know if i know i need to cut i i was you know if i know i need to cut i i was you know if i know i need to cut i i was half joking part of it though is half joking part of it though is half joking part of it though is attention span right i mean attention span right i mean attention span right i mean you've you've you've got a window and you've you've you've got a window and you've you've you've got a window and you need to respect your children's you need to respect your children's you need to respect your children's ministry workers and when the curriculum ministry workers and when the curriculum ministry workers and when the curriculum is done and they're left freewheeling is done and they're left freewheeling is done and they're left freewheeling they don't appreciate that if you know a they don't appreciate that if you know a they don't appreciate that if you know a couple of minutes okay 20 minutes couple of minutes okay 20 minutes couple of minutes okay 20 minutes probably not so much but as you as you probably not so much but as you as you probably not so much but as you as you look at the content that you have not look at the content that you have not look at the content that you have not everything can fit into every sermon everything can fit into every sermon everything can fit into every sermon when you're doing your study and you're when you're doing your study and you're when you're doing your study and you're doing your exegesis of text and you get doing your exegesis of text and you get doing your exegesis of text and you get all your illustrations and i actually all your illustrations and i actually all your illustrations and i actually used to do that it was pre-tick-tock used to do that it was pre-tick-tock used to do that it was pre-tick-tock pre-instagram reels but i would post a pre-instagram reels but i would post a pre-instagram reels but i would post a video video video on my church's facebook channel on my church's facebook channel on my church's facebook channel before the sunday i would always come up before the sunday i would always come up before the sunday i would always come up with an illustration or an idea that i with an illustration or an idea that i with an illustration or an idea that i knew knew knew fit really well with the message but i fit really well with the message but i fit really well with the message but i wasn't going to be able to fit it into wasn't going to be able to fit it into wasn't going to be able to fit it into the sermon on sunday so i would actually the sermon on sunday so i would actually the sermon on sunday so i would actually record myself giving that illustration record myself giving that illustration record myself giving that illustration or that story or that little thing or that story or that little thing or that story or that little thing as a teaser for the sermon that was

as a teaser for the sermon that was as a teaser for the sermon that was going to come on sunday and i would post going to come on sunday and i would post going to come on sunday and i would post that online on like a thursday um but that online on like a thursday um but that online on like a thursday um but you know that you can do it the same way you know that you can do it the same way you know that you can do it the same way right is you can use that as tick tock right is you can use that as tick tock right is you can use that as tick tock or reels content or social content you or reels content or social content you or reels content or social content you know know know take those things off the cutting room take those things off the cutting room take those things off the cutting room floor and find another way to repurpose floor and find another way to repurpose floor and find another way to repurpose those so that that hard work that you those so that that hard work that you those so that that hard work that you have is not in vain i wrote a great have is not in vain i wrote a great have is not in vain i wrote a great story or i came up with a great idea but story or i came up with a great idea but story or i came up with a great idea but it's just not going to fit this sunday it's just not going to fit this sunday it's just not going to fit this sunday and of course some of the the gift of and of course some of the the gift of and of course some of the the gift of preparing a sermon i you know as someone preparing a sermon i you know as someone preparing a sermon i you know as someone who does that as well i think some of it who does that as well i think some of it who does that as well i think some of it is just for the preacher is just for the preacher is just for the preacher some of it is the in this sort of gift some of it is the in this sort of gift some of it is the in this sort of gift that god gives them of doing an that god gives them of doing an that god gives them of doing an intensive study and some of it isn't to intensive study and some of it isn't to intensive study and some of it isn't to share some of it is just for them and share some of it is just for them and share some of it is just for them and it's a gift to them from god yeah as it's a gift to them from god yeah as it's a gift to them from god yeah as they learn and study they found they learn and study they found they learn and study they found something that's a nugget for their week something that's a nugget for their week something that's a nugget for their week that maybe they don't have time to offer that maybe they don't have time to offer that maybe they don't have time to offer to anyone else but but yeah any time we to anyone else but but yeah any time we to anyone else but but yeah any time we can add those bonus it's like the same can add those bonus it's like the same can add those bonus it's like the same like when on the old dvds we all used to like when on the old dvds we all used to like when on the old dvds we all used to have where you've got the bonus content have where you've got the bonus content have where you've got the bonus content we loved it bring on the bonus content we loved it bring on the bonus content we loved it bring on the bonus content oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah yeah absolutely why do people sit yeah absolutely why do people sit yeah absolutely why do people sit through those marvel movies for three through those marvel movies for three through those marvel movies for three and a half hours and then they sit and a half hours and then they sit and a half hours and then they sit through the credits to see what happens through the credits to see what happens through the credits to see what happens after the credits right there's always after the credits right there's always after the credits right there's always something that extra thing there hey something that extra thing there hey something that extra thing there hey this has been a really interesting very this has been a really interesting very this has been a really interesting very diverse conversation we've talked about diverse conversation we've talked about diverse conversation we've talked about a lot of different things um it's been a lot of different things um it's been a lot of different things um it's been fun it's been fun and i've appreciated fun it's been fun and i've appreciated fun it's been fun and i've appreciated uh your your time today with us joanna uh your your time today with us joanna uh your your time today with us joanna um as we wrap up do you have any parting um as we wrap up do you have any parting um as we wrap up do you have any parting shots any things that you want to leave shots any things that you want to leave shots any things that you want to leave with our audience anything that we with our audience anything that we with our audience anything that we didn't ask you that you thought would

didn't ask you that you thought would didn't ask you that you thought would have been worth asking you to have the have been worth asking you to have the have been worth asking you to have the conversation and how do people get a conversation and how do people get a conversation and how do people get a hold of you yeah um i mean just as a hold of you yeah um i mean just as a hold of you yeah um i mean just as a means of encouragement the last few means of encouragement the last few means of encouragement the last few years have been really hard everyone's years have been really hard everyone's years have been really hard everyone's doing the best they can with what they doing the best they can with what they doing the best they can with what they have but then also i think you know have but then also i think you know have but then also i think you know whether it's you know these these whether it's you know these these whether it's you know these these fine gentlemen here hosting the podcast fine gentlemen here hosting the podcast fine gentlemen here hosting the podcast or people like me or you know others or people like me or you know others or people like me or you know others they're you know if you're tired if they're you know if you're tired if they're you know if you're tired if you're burned out if the fastest way to you're burned out if the fastest way to you're burned out if the fastest way to that thing that you feel discouraged that thing that you feel discouraged that thing that you feel discouraged about might very well be hiring these about might very well be hiring these about might very well be hiring these guys guys guys and i don't mean that as uh anything and i don't mean that as uh anything and i don't mean that as uh anything other than just you know i think other than just you know i think other than just you know i think sometimes we can sit so long in sometimes we can sit so long in sometimes we can sit so long in discouragement about things we're not discouragement about things we're not discouragement about things we're not good at when there's people right in good at when there's people right in good at when there's people right in front of us who would love to help us front of us who would love to help us front of us who would love to help us you know you know point us in the right you know you know point us in the right you know you know point us in the right direction so direction so direction so it's just just in general you know if it's just just in general you know if it's just just in general you know if you need an accountant hire an you need an accountant hire an you need an accountant hire an accountant accountant accountant if you need if you need help with with if you need if you need help with with if you need if you need help with with this kind of thing there are people who this kind of thing there are people who this kind of thing there are people who can help you and can help you and can help you and we you know through things like these we you know through things like these we you know through things like these podcasts and you know things on my own podcasts and you know things on my own podcasts and you know things on my own channels of tutorial stuff there's lots channels of tutorial stuff there's lots channels of tutorial stuff there's lots of free great expertise of free great expertise of free great expertise that you can get and so don't you don't that you can get and so don't you don't that you can get and so don't you don't you i i hear and and feel the you i i hear and and feel the you i i hear and and feel the discouragement and exhaustion of so many discouragement and exhaustion of so many discouragement and exhaustion of so many and also there's like a ton of of people and also there's like a ton of of people and also there's like a ton of of people out there who just want to help you and out there who just want to help you and out there who just want to help you and want to give you free resources and and want to give you free resources and and want to give you free resources and and uh they don't even want your money they uh they don't even want your money they uh they don't even want your money they just want to help so i hope that's an just want to help so i hope that's an just want to help so i hope that's an encouragement to people you know word encouragement to people you know word encouragement to people you know word word made digital like john chapter one word made digital like john chapter one word made digital like john chapter one um that's where the podcast i host and um that's where the podcast i host and um that's where the podcast i host and the team the the the team the the the team the the company that i lead word made digital is

company that i lead word made digital is company that i lead word made digital is a play-off of john chapter one when the a play-off of john chapter one when the a play-off of john chapter one when the word as eugene peterson said in the word as eugene peterson said in the word as eugene peterson said in the message the word became flesh and blood message the word became flesh and blood message the word became flesh and blood and moved into the neighborhood so what and moved into the neighborhood so what and moved into the neighborhood so what do we do when the word becomes digital do we do when the word becomes digital do we do when the word becomes digital that is when the word goes into the palm that is when the word goes into the palm that is when the word goes into the palm of our hands into our phones how do we of our hands into our phones how do we of our hands into our phones how do we think in this new way and i say that as think in this new way and i say that as think in this new way and i say that as a question because we're all figuring it a question because we're all figuring it a question because we're all figuring it out together so people listening they out together so people listening they out together so people listening they know things we don't know we know things know things we don't know we know things know things we don't know we know things they don't know let's help each other they don't know let's help each other they don't know let's help each other there's lots of resources as we all try there's lots of resources as we all try there's lots of resources as we all try and learn and learn and learn this whole new world thanks joanna we really appreciate you thanks joanna we really appreciate you being on the show today being on the show today being on the show today thank you thank you thank you [Music]