Who's Coming Back to Church and Who's Not | Dan Reiland

[Music] [Music] welcome to episode 44 of the missional welcome to episode 44 of the missional welcome to episode 44 of the missional marketing church growth interviews marketing church growth interviews marketing church growth interviews podcast podcast podcast i'm bart blair joined as always by jason i'm bart blair joined as always by jason i'm bart blair joined as always by jason hamrock how's it going jason bart it's hamrock how's it going jason bart it's hamrock how's it going jason bart it's going going going really really well i am uh having a ball really really well i am uh having a ball really really well i am uh having a ball talking with churches these last couple talking with churches these last couple talking with churches these last couple few weeks because few weeks because few weeks because churches are are had a great easter churches are are had a great easter churches are are had a great easter we're past that now and churches are we're past that now and churches are we're past that now and churches are kind of getting ready for the summer it kind of getting ready for the summer it kind of getting ready for the summer it just seems to be some really good just seems to be some really good just seems to be some really good momentum people are coming back to momentum people are coming back to momentum people are coming back to church i'm church i'm church i'm i'm excited about what's going on um i'm excited about what's going on um i'm excited about what's going on um even though even though even though they have some big obstacles in front of they have some big obstacles in front of they have some big obstacles in front of them just be encouraged today right them just be encouraged today right them just be encouraged today right that's that's going to be the theme for that's that's going to be the theme for that's that's going to be the theme for today is to be encouraged because god is today is to be encouraged because god is today is to be encouraged because god is good he's in control good he's in control good he's in control he's in control of whoever's in control he's in control of whoever's in control he's in control of whoever's in control and uh and uh and uh i just take that to heart and go you i just take that to heart and go you i just take that to heart and go you know thank you lord for for having her know thank you lord for for having her know thank you lord for for having her back back back yeah absolutely it you know we've we've yeah absolutely it you know we've we've yeah absolutely it you know we've we've seen in the last year seen in the last year seen in the last year a lot of negative stuff as it relates to a lot of negative stuff as it relates to a lot of negative stuff as it relates to churches a lot of pastors have churches a lot of pastors have churches a lot of pastors have have really struggled kovid had just have really struggled kovid had just have really struggled kovid had just made it hard made it hard relationally made it hard made it hard relationally made it hard made it hard relationally made it hard made it hard made it hard technically made it hard missionally um technically made it hard missionally um technically made it hard missionally um you know it doesn't mean you know it doesn't mean you know it doesn't mean that that that being hard sometimes that that that being hard sometimes that that that being hard sometimes facing hard things really helps us grow facing hard things really helps us grow facing hard things really helps us grow and and and stretches us but i've had some stretches us but i've had some stretches us but i've had some conversations with churches that conversations with churches that conversations with churches that have actually thrived and seen some have actually thrived and seen some have actually thrived and seen some amazing things happen amazing things happen amazing things happen literally before you and i got on this literally before you and i got on this literally before you and i got on this uh zoom call uh zoom call uh zoom call i got off of a call with a pastor of a i got off of a call with a pastor of a i got off of a call with a pastor of a church in ohio church in ohio church in ohio uh this pastor took over the church in uh this pastor took over the church in uh this pastor took over the church in may of 2020 may of 2020 may of 2020 great time to take on a new church a great time to take on a new church a great time to take on a new church a church a church of church a church of church a church of 25 people okay and they had a

25 people okay and they had a 25 people okay and they had a they had 145 people at easter this year they had 145 people at easter this year they had 145 people at easter this year and are now averaging about 100 on and are now averaging about 100 on and are now averaging about 100 on sundays now you know some of sundays now you know some of sundays now you know some of some of our listeners going well like some of our listeners going well like some of our listeners going well like you know 100 people that's a small you know 100 people that's a small you know 100 people that's a small church church church it's actually kind of a normal sized it's actually kind of a normal sized it's actually kind of a normal sized church in north america the average church in north america the average church in north america the average church size is church size is church size is you know like probably 150 people you know like probably 150 people you know like probably 150 people um but what was amazing was that this um but what was amazing was that this um but what was amazing was that this church church church had its first baptism in 10 years had its first baptism in 10 years had its first baptism in 10 years after easter and that to me like that's after easter and that to me like that's after easter and that to me like that's a win that's a win for me that's a win a win that's a win for me that's a win a win that's a win for me that's a win for us for us for us a it's a it's a total win i know it's a it's a it's a total win i know it's a it's a it's a total win i know it's it's awesome and uh it's awesome and uh it's awesome and uh and so this i say my goal in life is for and so this i say my goal in life is for and so this i say my goal in life is for every church that i work with every church that i work with every church that i work with to have a problem with their water bill to have a problem with their water bill to have a problem with their water bill that their baptism tank that their baptism tank that their baptism tank has to be filled so often that they that has to be filled so often that they that has to be filled so often that they that their accountant is complaining about their accountant is complaining about their accountant is complaining about how much water they're using and how much water they're using and how much water they're using and well now of course we do serve some well now of course we do serve some well now of course we do serve some churches that don't do immersion baptism churches that don't do immersion baptism churches that don't do immersion baptism they do they do they do sprinkling and pouring and those of you sprinkling and pouring and those of you sprinkling and pouring and those of you it'd be hard to rack up a really big it'd be hard to rack up a really big it'd be hard to rack up a really big water bill but i hope that you do water bill but i hope that you do water bill but i hope that you do even if you're spring cleaning pouring i even if you're spring cleaning pouring i even if you're spring cleaning pouring i hope that you rack up a big water bill hope that you rack up a big water bill hope that you rack up a big water bill because we want to see more and more because we want to see more and more because we want to see more and more people coming to faith in jesus people coming to faith in jesus people coming to faith in jesus um yeah so today we have a guest on our um yeah so today we have a guest on our um yeah so today we have a guest on our podcast podcast podcast um this is a guy that i've known about um this is a guy that i've known about um this is a guy that i've known about for a number of years his name is dan for a number of years his name is dan for a number of years his name is dan ryland he's the executive pastor at 12 ryland he's the executive pastor at 12 ryland he's the executive pastor at 12 stone stone stone um that's a church that a lot of people um that's a church that a lot of people um that's a church that a lot of people might be familiar with he gives us a might be familiar with he gives us a might be familiar with he gives us a little bit of little bit of little bit of insight and a profile um in the in the insight and a profile um in the in the insight and a profile um in the in the interview that we have with him interview that we have with him interview that we have with him i reached out to dan um on a i reached out to dan um on a i reached out to dan um on a on a flyer a few weeks ago uh dan is a

on a flyer a few weeks ago uh dan is a on a flyer a few weeks ago uh dan is a guy that's like on guy that's like on guy that's like on he's been on like kerry newhop's podcast he's been on like kerry newhop's podcast he's been on like kerry newhop's podcast like so he runs around in like so he runs around in like so he runs around in in pretty big circles he's like friends in pretty big circles he's like friends in pretty big circles he's like friends with john maxwell worked with john with john maxwell worked with john with john maxwell worked with john maxwell for 20 years maxwell for 20 years maxwell for 20 years and and and andy stanley like he was on and and and andy stanley like he was on and and and andy stanley like he was on the board at north point and the board at north point and the board at north point and so he runs in some pretty some some so he runs in some pretty some some so he runs in some pretty some some pretty um pretty um pretty um well-established ministry circles i well-established ministry circles i well-established ministry circles i guess that's the best way of putting it guess that's the best way of putting it guess that's the best way of putting it and he posted an article on his blog and he posted an article on his blog and he posted an article on his blog that i caught on twitter a number of that i caught on twitter a number of that i caught on twitter a number of weeks ago weeks ago weeks ago saying you know who's coming back to saying you know who's coming back to saying you know who's coming back to church and who's not church and who's not church and who's not and i clicked on it got my attention and and i clicked on it got my attention and and i clicked on it got my attention and i read the article and i was like you i read the article and i was like you i read the article and i was like you know what know what know what this would be a great conversation for this would be a great conversation for this would be a great conversation for us to have us to have us to have on our podcast so i sent him a direct on our podcast so i sent him a direct on our podcast so i sent him a direct message on twitter message on twitter message on twitter and he sent me his email address and and he sent me his email address and and he sent me his email address and said let's set something up so said let's set something up so said let's set something up so we had the privilege of sitting down we had the privilege of sitting down we had the privilege of sitting down today earlier today today earlier today today earlier today and having this great conversation with and having this great conversation with and having this great conversation with dan ryland anything you want to add to dan ryland anything you want to add to dan ryland anything you want to add to that jason before we run the podcast that jason before we run the podcast that jason before we run the podcast the interview i'll tell you what yeah the interview i'll tell you what yeah the interview i'll tell you what yeah you know we get to talk and interview you know we get to talk and interview you know we get to talk and interview a lot of different people dan is a a lot of different people dan is a a lot of different people dan is a leaders leader leaders leader leaders leader he he's he has got a ton of he he's he has got a ton of he he's he has got a ton of wisdom and experience in the ministry wisdom and experience in the ministry wisdom and experience in the ministry world and the things that he's going to world and the things that he's going to world and the things that he's going to share share share it doesn't matter what level of it doesn't matter what level of it doesn't matter what level of leadership you're in you're going to leadership you're in you're going to leadership you're in you're going to learn from him learn from him learn from him he's also wrote a book he'll talk about he's also wrote a book he'll talk about he's also wrote a book he'll talk about that and so i highly encourage you get that and so i highly encourage you get that and so i highly encourage you get that book that book that book but uh uh dan is full of knowledge and but uh uh dan is full of knowledge and but uh uh dan is full of knowledge and it's it's just a it's it's just a it's it's just a pr privilege and honor to have him on pr privilege and honor to have him on pr privilege and honor to have him on the podcast so the podcast so the podcast so here we go absolutely absolutely 100 hey here we go absolutely absolutely 100 hey here we go absolutely absolutely 100 hey uh if you uh if you uh if you are a fan of our podcast if you listen

are a fan of our podcast if you listen are a fan of our podcast if you listen to this regularly or even irregularly to this regularly or even irregularly to this regularly or even irregularly we'd appreciate you we'd appreciate you we'd appreciate you uh on whatever platform that you consume uh on whatever platform that you consume uh on whatever platform that you consume this content this content this content uh to give us a rating give us a review uh to give us a rating give us a review uh to give us a rating give us a review and share it with somebody that you know and share it with somebody that you know and share it with somebody that you know and love and love and love surely there's another ministry partner surely there's another ministry partner surely there's another ministry partner or a friend or somebody that you know or a friend or somebody that you know or a friend or somebody that you know who can benefit from the content who can benefit from the content who can benefit from the content i i can't imagine anyone wouldn't i i can't imagine anyone wouldn't i i can't imagine anyone wouldn't benefit from this content that dan benefit from this content that dan benefit from this content that dan ryland's gonna share with us today ryland's gonna share with us today ryland's gonna share with us today so make sure you rate us review us share so make sure you rate us review us share so make sure you rate us review us share it with a friend it with a friend it with a friend we love you if there's anything that we we love you if there's anything that we we love you if there's anything that we can do for you make sure that you reach can do for you make sure that you reach can do for you make sure that you reach out out out and with all of that here's our and with all of that here's our and with all of that here's our interview with dan riley interview with dan riley interview with dan riley dan ryland thank you so much for joining dan ryland thank you so much for joining dan ryland thank you so much for joining jason and me on the missional marketing jason and me on the missional marketing jason and me on the missional marketing church growth interviews podcast church growth interviews podcast church growth interviews podcast uh we're excited to have you as our uh we're excited to have you as our uh we're excited to have you as our guest today thanks bart guest today thanks bart guest today thanks bart i'm looking forward to it but both you i'm looking forward to it but both you i'm looking forward to it but both you guys it's going to be a great guys it's going to be a great guys it's going to be a great i'm anticipating a great conversation i'm anticipating a great conversation i'm anticipating a great conversation yes i think i i think it's going to be yes i think i i think it's going to be yes i think i i think it's going to be good now good now good now you know i've known who you are for some you know i've known who you are for some you know i've known who you are for some time because you have a time because you have a time because you have a you have a fairly uh robust profile in you have a fairly uh robust profile in you have a fairly uh robust profile in the church community you've worked a the church community you've worked a the church community you've worked a number of different ministry number of different ministry number of different ministry organizations and churches and organizations and churches and organizations and churches and some high-profile churches but for our some high-profile churches but for our some high-profile churches but for our listeners those that listeners those that listeners those that might not be familiar with who you are might not be familiar with who you are might not be familiar with who you are why don't you share a little bit of your why don't you share a little bit of your why don't you share a little bit of your story tell us how you got into ministry story tell us how you got into ministry story tell us how you got into ministry tell us what some of the things are that tell us what some of the things are that tell us what some of the things are that you've done that you would consider the you've done that you would consider the you've done that you would consider the most most most significant places where god has led you significant places where god has led you significant places where god has led you and allowed you to serve and and allowed you to serve and and allowed you to serve and and then tell us too about the stuff and then tell us too about the stuff and then tell us too about the stuff that you're doing today that you're doing today that you're doing today so it was a whole bunch of questions all so it was a whole bunch of questions all so it was a whole bunch of questions all in one and i just want you to talk for a in one and i just want you to talk for a in one and i just want you to talk for a while while while all that all in one all in one we'll all that all in one all in one we'll all that all in one all in one we'll give you the fast version give you the fast version give you the fast version and of course if you find anything and of course if you find anything and of course if you find anything interesting we can talk more about it interesting we can talk more about it interesting we can talk more about it but but but um so yeah i actually i was uh

um so yeah i actually i was uh um so yeah i actually i was uh my call to ministry really began with my call to ministry really began with my call to ministry really began with people believing in me people believing in me people believing in me i was i was really i wasn't saved until i was i was really i wasn't saved until i was i was really i wasn't saved until i was a i was a i was a a graduating senior in high school and a graduating senior in high school and a graduating senior in high school and it was a it was a it was a rapid ride into it from then people saw rapid ride into it from then people saw rapid ride into it from then people saw some gifts saw some calling saw some some gifts saw some calling saw some some gifts saw some calling saw some talent talent talent spoke that into my life and it kind of spoke that into my life and it kind of spoke that into my life and it kind of just took off from my college years just took off from my college years just took off from my college years on and never slowed down from that even on and never slowed down from that even on and never slowed down from that even though though though uh from my my background in criminal uh from my my background in criminal uh from my my background in criminal justice i was a private investigator for justice i was a private investigator for justice i was a private investigator for a very short time a very short time a very short time really as as god was calling me to really as as god was calling me to really as as god was calling me to ministry and ministry and ministry and actually started ministering in the actually started ministering in the actually started ministering in the college department college department college department and and then you know what keeps me and and then you know what keeps me and and then you know what keeps me going obviously is why i shouldn't say going obviously is why i shouldn't say going obviously is why i shouldn't say obviously but obviously but obviously but seeing changed lives getting to do what seeing changed lives getting to do what seeing changed lives getting to do what i get to do for i get to do for i get to do for these many years starting with john these many years starting with john these many years starting with john maxwell after seminary maxwell after seminary maxwell after seminary uh as his first here's my claim to fame uh as his first here's my claim to fame uh as his first here's my claim to fame you ready for this you ready for this you ready for this my claim to fame is i broke john my claim to fame is i broke john my claim to fame is i broke john maxwell's internship maxwell's internship maxwell's internship i was his first intern at skyline in san i was his first intern at skyline in san i was his first intern at skyline in san diego diego diego and he shut the program down after that and he shut the program down after that and he shut the program down after that he said we are not doing that again i he said we are not doing that again i he said we are not doing that again i thought how bad could i be thought how bad could i be thought how bad could i be and uh but the good news there's and uh but the good news there's and uh but the good news there's redemption in the story redemption in the story redemption in the story uh at the end of that he said come on uh at the end of that he said come on uh at the end of that he said come on daniel join the team and that launched daniel join the team and that launched daniel join the team and that launched 20 years together which brought us to 20 years together which brought us to 20 years together which brought us to atlanta and in between that church and atlanta and in between that church and atlanta and in between that church and where i where i where i am now i was at north point with andy am now i was at north point with andy am now i was at north point with andy stanley as an elder on the board for a stanley as an elder on the board for a stanley as an elder on the board for a while and that was a while and that was a while and that was a incredible right andy's a genius learned

incredible right andy's a genius learned incredible right andy's a genius learned from him from him from him and then god called me to 12 stone where and then god called me to 12 stone where and then god called me to 12 stone where i'm now i'm now i'm now executive pastor again 19 years can you executive pastor again 19 years can you executive pastor again 19 years can you believe that believe that believe that and this followed me 20 and so i serve and this followed me 20 and so i serve and this followed me 20 and so i serve as as as executive pastor i think they're calling executive pastor i think they're calling executive pastor i think they're calling it now more chief of staff because i've it now more chief of staff because i've it now more chief of staff because i've been raising been raising been raising up a young brilliant amazing up a young brilliant amazing up a young brilliant amazing executive pastor to take my share soon executive pastor to take my share soon executive pastor to take my share soon enough enough enough and i'll do some other things there more and i'll do some other things there more and i'll do some other things there more in church planting residency helping in church planting residency helping in church planting residency helping pastors pastors pastors so there it is in a nutshell how about so there it is in a nutshell how about so there it is in a nutshell how about that can you tell us a little bit more that can you tell us a little bit more that can you tell us a little bit more about 12 stone tell us a little bit more about 12 stone tell us a little bit more about 12 stone tell us a little bit more about 12 stone ministry about 12 stone ministry about 12 stone ministry yes kevin myers is the founding and yes kevin myers is the founding and yes kevin myers is the founding and senior pastor senior pastor senior pastor he founded the church in 1987 he founded the church in 1987 he founded the church in 1987 and it's just an incredible story you and it's just an incredible story you and it's just an incredible story you know some some churches leap know some some churches leap know some some churches leap they just go they grow fast this was a they just go they grow fast this was a they just go they grow fast this was a layer by layer by layer by layer church layer by layer by layer by layer church layer by layer by layer by layer church and so then in uh i joined the team in and so then in uh i joined the team in and so then in uh i joined the team in 2001 2001 2001 and uh by 2008 we went multi-site and uh by 2008 we went multi-site and uh by 2008 we went multi-site to the point now where uh at seven eight to the point now where uh at seven eight to the point now where uh at seven eight campuses campuses campuses and uh asking god to go more and so and uh asking god to go more and so and uh asking god to go more and so that's where we are today and that's where we are today and that's where we are today and doing some really cool things and i can doing some really cool things and i can doing some really cool things and i can say that because the team is say that because the team is say that because the team is you know young and smart and doing a you know young and smart and doing a you know young and smart and doing a great job but that's what we're up to great job but that's what we're up to great job but that's what we're up to and and and i mentioned the residency one of the i mentioned the residency one of the i mentioned the residency one of the things that i really love and we have a things that i really love and we have a things that i really love and we have a passion for passion for passion for maybe even a little bit of known about

maybe even a little bit of known about maybe even a little bit of known about we have 30 full-time residents we have 30 full-time residents we have 30 full-time residents who are college graduates ministry who are college graduates ministry who are college graduates ministry majors who come in and spend two years majors who come in and spend two years majors who come in and spend two years with us in a training program and then with us in a training program and then with us in a training program and then we we we help place them into really strong help place them into really strong help place them into really strong vibrant churches around the country vibrant churches around the country vibrant churches around the country and it's one of the coolest things i get and it's one of the coolest things i get and it's one of the coolest things i get to i get to be part of to i get to be part of to i get to be part of oh wow yeah and what for them to be able to come and what for them to be able to come under the wings of under the wings of under the wings of 12 stone and then be launched out is 12 stone and then be launched out is 12 stone and then be launched out is it's got to be a real it's got to be a real it's got to be a real great uh momentum builder for these guys great uh momentum builder for these guys great uh momentum builder for these guys these young guys that are going to be these young guys that are going to be these young guys that are going to be taking over ministry yeah that's that's taking over ministry yeah that's that's taking over ministry yeah that's that's pretty cool pretty cool pretty cool so uh i like to jump in and sort of take so uh i like to jump in and sort of take so uh i like to jump in and sort of take the the conversation in a direction the the conversation in a direction the the conversation in a direction where where where over the last 12 13 14 months over the last 12 13 14 months over the last 12 13 14 months the church landscape has shifted it's the church landscape has shifted it's the church landscape has shifted it's changed and so changed and so changed and so you've been around and you've been in you've been around and you've been in you've been around and you've been in ministry for a long time what have you ministry for a long time what have you ministry for a long time what have you you know what's kind of some of the you know what's kind of some of the you know what's kind of some of the bigger takeaways um in dealing with bigger takeaways um in dealing with bigger takeaways um in dealing with kovid and kovid and kovid and and how has that now affected the local and how has that now affected the local and how has that now affected the local church and what do you think the future church and what do you think the future church and what do you think the future holds holds holds yeah we're i'll share a couple three yeah we're i'll share a couple three yeah we're i'll share a couple three thoughts and we can talk about it thoughts and we can talk about it thoughts and we can talk about it as much or little as you like but you as much or little as you like but you as much or little as you like but you know one of the one of the things that know one of the one of the things that know one of the one of the things that a lot of us are talking about now that's a lot of us are talking about now that's a lot of us are talking about now that's just significantly different just significantly different just significantly different significantly different is that how significantly different is that how significantly different is that how difficult it is to lead difficult it is to lead difficult it is to lead when you can't see around the corner you when you can't see around the corner you when you can't see around the corner you just you just just you just just you just you know the whole process of vision is you know the whole process of vision is you know the whole process of vision is completely changed completely changed completely changed because we can no longer predict because we can no longer predict because we can no longer predict and and you might think uh jason that

and and you might think uh jason that and and you might think uh jason that well well well you really couldn't predict the future you really couldn't predict the future you really couldn't predict the future before you're right before you're right before you're right but there were things that were but there were things that were but there were things that were predictable yeah predictable yeah predictable yeah and they're now no longer predictable and they're now no longer predictable and they're now no longer predictable and so and so and so what's happening is we're learning how what's happening is we're learning how what's happening is we're learning how to to to cast vision in shorter bite-sized pieces cast vision in shorter bite-sized pieces cast vision in shorter bite-sized pieces where where in the in in kovid we were where where in the in in kovid we were where where in the in in kovid we were and that we and that we and that we say we all the churches we kind of hang say we all the churches we kind of hang say we all the churches we kind of hang out with and know out with and know out with and know we're going as short as a three-month we're going as short as a three-month we're going as short as a three-month bite bite bite it just because things were changing so it just because things were changing so it just because things were changing so fast now of course we're trying to get fast now of course we're trying to get fast now of course we're trying to get it to six and nine months it to six and nine months it to six and nine months if your church is uh the percentage of if your church is uh the percentage of if your church is uh the percentage of return is return is return is higher you know you're 60 70 you might higher you know you're 60 70 you might higher you know you're 60 70 you might even be trying a year out even be trying a year out even be trying a year out but i don't think many people are but i don't think many people are but i don't think many people are thinking beyond a year because you just thinking beyond a year because you just thinking beyond a year because you just don't know um the play don't know um the play don't know um the play another thing of course would be in your another thing of course would be in your another thing of course would be in your world i think is that world i think is that world i think is that digital and live are here to stay digital and live are here to stay digital and live are here to stay they're just here to stay and uh they're just here to stay and uh they're just here to stay and uh the complexity is figuring out how they the complexity is figuring out how they the complexity is figuring out how they play together play together play together it's it's really complex do you really it's it's really complex do you really it's it's really complex do you really just put a camera in front just put a camera in front just put a camera in front and send it out in three different ways and send it out in three different ways and send it out in three different ways you like online you like online you like online and then into home gatherings and then and then into home gatherings and then and then into home gatherings and then to stream into your campuses you know to stream into your campuses you know to stream into your campuses you know because that doesn't really work and so because that doesn't really work and so because that doesn't really work and so are you gonna sometimes we ended up are you gonna sometimes we ended up are you gonna sometimes we ended up doubling and tripling the work to try to doubling and tripling the work to try to doubling and tripling the work to try to get it into a get it into a get it into a in the environments in a way that's in the environments in a way that's in the environments in a way that's custom for each environment so custom for each environment so custom for each environment so we're all in that space it's not going we're all in that space it's not going we're all in that space it's not going to go away to go away to go away and it changes staffing it changes

and it changes staffing it changes and it changes staffing it changes everything how you how you have to deal everything how you how you have to deal everything how you how you have to deal with with with the multiple modes of doing both of them the multiple modes of doing both of them the multiple modes of doing both of them here's one more here's one more uh i here's one more here's one more uh i here's one more here's one more uh i think think think culture has permanently changed this culture has permanently changed this culture has permanently changed this comes comes comes your last question i think culture is your last question i think culture is your last question i think culture is permanently changed permanently changed permanently changed in how it views church in how it views church in how it views church almost even do they even need almost even do they even need almost even do they even need church uh there's a lot of honest church uh there's a lot of honest church uh there's a lot of honest conversations these days conversations these days conversations these days like about did did we shoot ourselves like about did did we shoot ourselves like about did did we shoot ourselves from the foot with online which i don't from the foot with online which i don't from the foot with online which i don't believe is true at all believe is true at all believe is true at all um but there's complex questions on how um but there's complex questions on how um but there's complex questions on how you lead them out you lead them out you lead them out and that the truth of the matter is you and that the truth of the matter is you and that the truth of the matter is you know on know on know on people don't really visit churches people don't really visit churches people don't really visit churches anymore the the new anymore the the new anymore the the new the your the church website and that the your the church website and that the your the church website and that you're online that's the new lobby you're online that's the new lobby you're online that's the new lobby people people go to go there way before people people go to go there way before people people go to go there way before they come into your church and so they come into your church and so they come into your church and so i think i'll end it with this i think i think i'll end it with this i think i think i'll end it with this i think we're all church planters now we're all church planters now we're all church planters now uh we you have to have a mindset it's uh we you have to have a mindset it's uh we you have to have a mindset it's fresh and it's new fresh and it's new fresh and it's new and the churches that are going to do and the churches that are going to do and the churches that are going to do really well are there churches that are really well are there churches that are really well are there churches that are hungry hungry hungry uh the churches that are hungry you know uh the churches that are hungry you know uh the churches that are hungry you know kerry carrie you're about you probably kerry carrie you're about you probably kerry carrie you're about you probably know carrie new house know carrie new house know carrie new house great friend brilliant guy he said great friend brilliant guy he said great friend brilliant guy he said something i thought that is so true something i thought that is so true something i thought that is so true and he said on one of his podcasts he and he said on one of his podcasts he and he said on one of his podcasts he said trying to get said trying to get said trying to get people to come back to your church isn't people to come back to your church isn't people to come back to your church isn't vision vision vision now it's it's good shepherding it's we now it's it's good shepherding it's we now it's it's good shepherding it's we should do it should do it should do it but that's not forward motion just

but that's not forward motion just but that's not forward motion just trying to get people to come back trying to get people to come back trying to get people to come back so it's a new day jason it's a new day so it's a new day jason it's a new day so it's a new day jason it's a new day well well well i'll add to that i think you know i'll add to that i think you know i'll add to that i think you know because we get the opportunity to talk because we get the opportunity to talk because we get the opportunity to talk with a lot of churches and hear from with a lot of churches and hear from with a lot of churches and hear from phenomenal leaders and what they're phenomenal leaders and what they're phenomenal leaders and what they're doing we speak into it from from our doing we speak into it from from our doing we speak into it from from our lane lane lane it's all about being found in google and it's all about being found in google and it's all about being found in google and what people are looking for what people are looking for what people are looking for and as you just said lots of people are and as you just said lots of people are and as you just said lots of people are turned off by church turned off by church turned off by church but they still have issues that's never but they still have issues that's never but they still have issues that's never going to go away going to go away going to go away and and we need to be able to minister and and we need to be able to minister and and we need to be able to minister to them by reaching them in google when to them by reaching them in google when to them by reaching them in google when they're having a problem with their they're having a problem with their they're having a problem with their marriage or parenting or addictions or marriage or parenting or addictions or marriage or parenting or addictions or whatever it might be whatever it might be whatever it might be and i kind of feel like if churches that and i kind of feel like if churches that and i kind of feel like if churches that make that leap to make those connections make that leap to make those connections make that leap to make those connections are going to develop relationships with are going to develop relationships with are going to develop relationships with people people people that can ultimately get them into church that can ultimately get them into church that can ultimately get them into church but like you said just but like you said just but like you said just expecting them to show up uh you kind of expecting them to show up uh you kind of expecting them to show up uh you kind of said they're going to go to their said they're going to go to their said they're going to go to their website they're actually going to check website they're actually going to check website they're actually going to check out their google out their google out their google profile before they even get to the profile before they even get to the profile before they even get to the website you're right website you're right website you're right you're right jason they're going to do you're right jason they're going to do you're right jason they're going to do that first so you that that's just the that first so you that that's just the that first so you that that's just the boomer in me coming out right boomer in me coming out right boomer in me coming out right yeah i i moved uh back to the dallas yeah i i moved uh back to the dallas yeah i i moved uh back to the dallas fort worth area fort worth area fort worth area which is where i grew up i moved uh back which is where i grew up i moved uh back which is where i grew up i moved uh back three years ago after having been gone three years ago after having been gone three years ago after having been gone for almost 25 years for almost 25 years for almost 25 years well actually more than 25 years and my well actually more than 25 years and my well actually more than 25 years and my wife and i wife and i wife and i we made a decision we were 98 we made a decision we were 98 we made a decision we were 98 sure which church was going to be our sure which church was going to be our sure which church was going to be our home church home church home church before we actually physically got to the before we actually physically got to the before we actually physically got to the community because community because community because we were checking out churches online now

we were checking out churches online now we were checking out churches online now we're church people and we're church people and we're church people and you know i've been in ministry and there you know i've been in ministry and there you know i've been in ministry and there were very specific things that we were were very specific things that we were were very specific things that we were looking for looking for looking for um and you know we looked for a church um and you know we looked for a church um and you know we looked for a church that on all that on all that on all as many levels as we could align with as many levels as we could align with as many levels as we could align with our our our our our idea of how a local church our our idea of how a local church our our idea of how a local church reaches people in its community and an reaches people in its community and an reaches people in its community and an effective effective effective ministry uh methodology and theology and ministry uh methodology and theology and ministry uh methodology and theology and all those things and so but we were able all those things and so but we were able all those things and so but we were able to really kind of peel back to really kind of peel back to really kind of peel back quite a few layers just by exploring quite a few layers just by exploring quite a few layers just by exploring website website website watching services online and uh and and watching services online and uh and and watching services online and uh and and that was that was that was you know that was three years ago i you know that was three years ago i you know that was three years ago i think that's that's been think that's that's been think that's that's been amplified to a level that we could have amplified to a level that we could have amplified to a level that we could have never even never even never even imagined at this point because you know imagined at this point because you know imagined at this point because you know one of the one of the things that we see one of the one of the things that we see one of the one of the things that we see trend pretty regularly on a very high trend pretty regularly on a very high trend pretty regularly on a very high level level level is people are still even though a lot of is people are still even though a lot of is people are still even though a lot of churches are back in person churches are back in person churches are back in person people are still googling church online people are still googling church online people are still googling church online like crazy we watch these numbers this like crazy we watch these numbers this like crazy we watch these numbers this is what we is what we is what we this is what we do for churches it's this is what we do for churches it's this is what we do for churches it's what we do for a living and what we do for a living and what we do for a living and we see that uh we we see the trend of we see that uh we we see the trend of we see that uh we we see the trend of people people people googling church online or church live googling church online or church live googling church online or church live stream is still very very stream is still very very stream is still very very high in spite of the fact that people high in spite of the fact that people high in spite of the fact that people can come back can come back can come back to many physical locations in many to many physical locations in many to many physical locations in many different communities and areas so different communities and areas so different communities and areas so um it's just stuff that we you're right um it's just stuff that we you're right um it's just stuff that we you're right we have to be forward thinking in this we have to be forward thinking in this we have to be forward thinking in this um i want to i want to um i want to i want to um i want to i want to kind of jump into another topic of kind of jump into another topic of kind of jump into another topic of conversation which was conversation which was conversation which was actually the reason i reached out to you actually the reason i reached out to you actually the reason i reached out to you to ask you to be a guest on our podcast to ask you to be a guest on our podcast to ask you to be a guest on our podcast um you um i follow you on twitter

um you um i follow you on twitter um you um i follow you on twitter and you didn't even know that i existed and you didn't even know that i existed and you didn't even know that i existed you know a few weeks ago but i knew you you know a few weeks ago but i knew you you know a few weeks ago but i knew you existed i follow you on twitter and you existed i follow you on twitter and you existed i follow you on twitter and you uh tweeted um an article a post or a uh tweeted um an article a post or a uh tweeted um an article a post or a blog post that you'd written called blog post that you'd written called blog post that you'd written called who's coming back to church and who's who's coming back to church and who's who's coming back to church and who's not not not and that got my attention and i clicked and that got my attention and i clicked and that got my attention and i clicked on it and i read the article and i was on it and i read the article and i was on it and i read the article and i was like like like this is what i want to have a this is what i want to have a this is what i want to have a conversation with dan about so i reached conversation with dan about so i reached conversation with dan about so i reached out and that was kind of the impetus for out and that was kind of the impetus for out and that was kind of the impetus for for for for having this conversation today and we're having this conversation today and we're having this conversation today and we're going to link to that article going to link to that article going to link to that article uh in the show notes for the podcast but uh in the show notes for the podcast but uh in the show notes for the podcast but let's talk about that for a few let's talk about that for a few let's talk about that for a few minutes why don't you kind of unpack minutes why don't you kind of unpack minutes why don't you kind of unpack that a little bit who do you see that a little bit who do you see that a little bit who do you see coming back to church who's not coming coming back to church who's not coming coming back to church who's not coming back to church why don't you kind of back to church why don't you kind of back to church why don't you kind of you know unpack that for us a little bit you know unpack that for us a little bit you know unpack that for us a little bit do both of them sure do both of them sure do both of them sure well as a practitioner i mean i'm a well as a practitioner i mean i'm a well as a practitioner i mean i'm a pastor at heart and pastor at heart and pastor at heart and like you said i've been doing this for a like you said i've been doing this for a like you said i've been doing this for a long long time actually i started back long long time actually i started back long long time actually i started back in the jurassic era in the jurassic era in the jurassic era and uh so i've so i've seen a lot but um and uh so i've so i've seen a lot but um and uh so i've so i've seen a lot but um so i'm gonna on a very practical level so i'm gonna on a very practical level so i'm gonna on a very practical level the thing that i'm most excited about the thing that i'm most excited about the thing that i'm most excited about that many of us are that many of us are that many of us are is that new people are coming people is that new people are coming people is that new people are coming people we've never we've never we've never seen before are coming and so that's seen before are coming and so that's seen before are coming and so that's encouraging obviously on a spiritual encouraging obviously on a spiritual encouraging obviously on a spiritual level and we're excited about that and level and we're excited about that and level and we're excited about that and we're we're we're we're having wonderful conversations to we're having wonderful conversations to we're having wonderful conversations to finding out finding out finding out what's what why are they coming now when what's what why are they coming now when what's what why are they coming now when they've really not been in they've really not been in they've really not been in church before and and then i think of church before and and then i think of church before and and then i think of course on a maybe a more of a course on a maybe a more of a course on a maybe a more of a logical realm is that regular attenders logical realm is that regular attenders logical realm is that regular attenders your regular tenants are coming back the your regular tenants are coming back the your regular tenants are coming back the ones who are more comfortable now with ones who are more comfortable now with ones who are more comfortable now with work with large crowds they're a little

work with large crowds they're a little work with large crowds they're a little bit more ready to be back bit more ready to be back bit more ready to be back and they're coming back um i think and they're coming back um i think and they're coming back um i think another group another group another group which is important they volunteers who which is important they volunteers who which is important they volunteers who feel a little bit more of a heightened feel a little bit more of a heightened feel a little bit more of a heightened sense of calling sense of calling sense of calling and serving are coming back and serving are coming back and serving are coming back and and then there's an interesting and and then there's an interesting and and then there's an interesting group and this is what group and this is what group and this is what one of my most fun conversations people one of my most fun conversations people one of my most fun conversations people are coming back are coming back are coming back specifically for worship and specifically for worship and specifically for worship and and you know uh and and you know uh and and you know uh and i'm asking why why that because you i'm asking why why that because you i'm asking why why that because you could worship at home you could put on a could worship at home you could put on a could worship at home you could put on a great you know some great music and great you know some great music and great you know some great music and and they said yeah but we we don't do and they said yeah but we we don't do and they said yeah but we we don't do that very well at home when we that very well at home when we that very well at home when we are online we really don't sing when are online we really don't sing when are online we really don't sing when we're you know even in a group we're you know even in a group we're you know even in a group we don't write six of us and so um we don't write six of us and so um we don't write six of us and so um they're saying so we get to help this is they're saying so we get to help this is they're saying so we get to help this is what i love what i love what i love we get to help people do well what they we get to help people do well what they we get to help people do well what they don't do well on their own don't do well on their own don't do well on their own which is worship and and so that's which is worship and and so that's which is worship and and so that's really cool which is very different really cool which is very different really cool which is very different though than the the group that though than the the group that though than the the group that is not coming back and this one so those is not coming back and this one so those is not coming back and this one so those are a little bit more logical except are a little bit more logical except are a little bit more logical except maybe the maybe the maybe the new the visitors but new the visitors but new the visitors but who's not coming back it's more of a who's not coming back it's more of a who's not coming back it's more of a surprise to all of us surprise to all of us surprise to all of us uh including us at 12 stone but uh including us at 12 stone but uh including us at 12 stone but something's changed in culture and the something's changed in culture and the something's changed in culture and the lifestyle lifestyle lifestyle and habits of many wonderful christians and habits of many wonderful christians and habits of many wonderful christians has changed has changed has changed and and without any kind of judgment at and and without any kind of judgment at and and without any kind of judgment at all all all it's become a convenience and they kind

it's become a convenience and they kind it's become a convenience and they kind of of of like their new lifestyle they kind of like their new lifestyle they kind of like their new lifestyle they kind of like you know like you know like you know watching church while they're eating watching church while they're eating watching church while they're eating pancakes and pouring syrup on it with pancakes and pouring syrup on it with pancakes and pouring syrup on it with their kids and going to the lake their kids and going to the lake their kids and going to the lake and all those kinds of things and so and all those kinds of things and so and all those kinds of things and so they're they're they're not coming back and you know yeah i know not coming back and you know yeah i know not coming back and you know yeah i know you guys know you guys know you guys know that the trend of attendance was already that the trend of attendance was already that the trend of attendance was already lower lower lower you know 1.7 two times a month that was you know 1.7 two times a month that was you know 1.7 two times a month that was already this already this already this elevated it right and so we're casting elevated it right and so we're casting elevated it right and so we're casting vision and having conversations vision and having conversations vision and having conversations and and discovering sometimes a little and and discovering sometimes a little and and discovering sometimes a little prompt a little invitation and they and prompt a little invitation and they and prompt a little invitation and they and they said you know what i need to i need they said you know what i need to i need they said you know what i need to i need to come back to come back to come back but then there's another group that's but then there's another group that's but then there's another group that's not coming back not coming back not coming back and they're also really honest with us and they're also really honest with us and they're also really honest with us is they're just not ready kovit has is they're just not ready kovit has is they're just not ready kovit has has has a lasting fear in them and has has a lasting fear in them and has has a lasting fear in them and it's kind of got in their soul a little it's kind of got in their soul a little it's kind of got in their soul a little bit it's not about a habit or a bit it's not about a habit or a bit it's not about a habit or a lifestyle they're lifestyle they're lifestyle they're still fearful and concerned and some still fearful and concerned and some still fearful and concerned and some quite rightfully so quite rightfully so quite rightfully so um and then maybe a last group um and then maybe a last group um and then maybe a last group some who are attending but they left some who are attending but they left some who are attending but they left your church your church your church and they're going to another one and and they're going to another one and and they're going to another one and that happened that happened that happened because and you remember remember the because and you remember remember the because and you remember remember the tension because the tension's not tension because the tension's not tension because the tension's not completely completely completely completely gone that just we're just completely gone that just we're just completely gone that just we're just switching topics switching topics switching topics of if you if you were open if you open of if you if you were open if you open of if you if you were open if you open too soon people are mad at you too soon people are mad at you too soon people are mad at you if you open too late people are mad at if you open too late people are mad at if you open too late people are mad at you and then it went to masks you and then it went to masks you and then it went to masks if we have if we make you our mask if we have if we make you our mask if we have if we make you our mask they're mad at us if you don't and now they're mad at us if you don't and now they're mad at us if you don't and now the new one the new one the new one is if you're vaccinated if you're not is if you're vaccinated if you're not is if you're vaccinated if you're not vaccinated so

vaccinated so vaccinated so we're all in this tension place trying we're all in this tension place trying we're all in this tension place trying to love people to love people to love people through the gospel but those are that's through the gospel but those are that's through the gospel but those are that's off the top kind of a thing off the top kind of a thing off the top kind of a thing what i'm seeing happen on a practical what i'm seeing happen on a practical what i'm seeing happen on a practical lane lane lane i want to take a moment to thank you for i want to take a moment to thank you for i want to take a moment to thank you for tuning in to the missional marketing tuning in to the missional marketing tuning in to the missional marketing podcast podcast podcast it's always our goal to help you as a it's always our goal to help you as a it's always our goal to help you as a church leader leverage your church leader leverage your church leader leverage your communications and digital media communications and digital media communications and digital media resources resources resources to reach more people for jesus one of to reach more people for jesus one of to reach more people for jesus one of the ways that we help churches do that the ways that we help churches do that the ways that we help churches do that is through creating social media content is through creating social media content is through creating social media content from your sunday sermon videos from your sunday sermon videos from your sunday sermon videos specifically what we can do for you is specifically what we can do for you is specifically what we can do for you is to create short sermon snippets from 30 to create short sermon snippets from 30 to create short sermon snippets from 30 seconds long to five minutes long seconds long to five minutes long seconds long to five minutes long capturing those mic drop moments that capturing those mic drop moments that capturing those mic drop moments that you really want people to remember you really want people to remember you really want people to remember we edit the videos add captions add your we edit the videos add captions add your we edit the videos add captions add your church branding church branding church branding and then you or we post them to your and then you or we post them to your and then you or we post them to your social media channels social media channels social media channels as a pastor i always love to see my as a pastor i always love to see my as a pastor i always love to see my sermon content live on beyond the sermon content live on beyond the sermon content live on beyond the sundays sundays sundays and i know that's what you value for and i know that's what you value for and i know that's what you value for your sermons too we offer this service your sermons too we offer this service your sermons too we offer this service as a monthly subscription as a monthly subscription as a monthly subscription but we've got a six week trial that but we've got a six week trial that but we've got a six week trial that gives you a chance to see how it works gives you a chance to see how it works gives you a chance to see how it works if you'd like more information just if you'd like more information just if you'd like more information just shoot me an email at beblair shoot me an email at beblair shoot me an email at beblair missionalmarketing.com i'd be glad to missionalmarketing.com i'd be glad to missionalmarketing.com i'd be glad to meet with you explain the process and meet with you explain the process and meet with you explain the process and answer any questions that you have answer any questions that you have answer any questions that you have once again thanks for tuning in to our once again thanks for tuning in to our once again thanks for tuning in to our podcast let's get back to the interview podcast let's get back to the interview podcast let's get back to the interview yeah i uh i'd agree with with that yeah i uh i'd agree with with that yeah i uh i'd agree with with that assessment assessment assessment and i kind of scratch my head at the and i kind of scratch my head at the and i kind of scratch my head at the well i get excited about when i hear well i get excited about when i hear well i get excited about when i hear when i talk with churches like we got when i talk with churches like we got when i talk with churches like we got new people coming we've never even new people coming we've never even new people coming we've never even seen them before and they're young you seen them before and they're young you seen them before and they're young you know that gets me like yes know that gets me like yes know that gets me like yes that's awesome because that was dying

that's awesome because that was dying that's awesome because that was dying pre-coveted it was on its way down for a pre-coveted it was on its way down for a pre-coveted it was on its way down for a long time so that's really cool to see long time so that's really cool to see long time so that's really cool to see and and and and churches that kind of can can go and churches that kind of can can go and churches that kind of can can go there and get that they're the ones that there and get that they're the ones that there and get that they're the ones that are going to be are going to be are going to be well off i i get a little bit like i well off i i get a little bit like i well off i i get a little bit like i scratch my head at the scratch my head at the scratch my head at the seasoned christians who decided to check seasoned christians who decided to check seasoned christians who decided to check out out out for the things that you just said for the things that you just said for the things that you just said because of all the other because of all the other because of all the other external things coming into now they can external things coming into now they can external things coming into now they can go to the lake they can do you know go to the lake they can do you know go to the lake they can do you know stuff with their family or whatnot you stuff with their family or whatnot you stuff with their family or whatnot you know they're probably still giving know they're probably still giving know they're probably still giving maybe but i question then maybe but i question then maybe but i question then how are they doing on their discipleship how are they doing on their discipleship how are they doing on their discipleship path how are they path how are they path how are they how does a church lead them and help how does a church lead them and help how does a church lead them and help them them them get closer to following and be more like get closer to following and be more like get closer to following and be more like jesus jesus jesus and how do you measure that from a and how do you measure that from a and how do you measure that from a distance if they're not coming back distance if they're not coming back distance if they're not coming back that's that's that's that's the one that i get a little bit that's the one that i get a little bit that's the one that i get a little bit like oh what what's the church going to like oh what what's the church going to like oh what what's the church going to do do do you know so what would you say to like you know so what would you say to like you know so what would you say to like pastors and church leaders pastors and church leaders pastors and church leaders you know um how do you engage the people you know um how do you engage the people you know um how do you engage the people that are coming back but that are coming back but that are coming back but more importantly if people are watching more importantly if people are watching more importantly if people are watching from their their living room and they from their their living room and they from their their living room and they decide they're not going to come back decide they're not going to come back decide they're not going to come back maybe because they don't it's not maybe because they don't it's not maybe because they don't it's not because they're afraid of because they're afraid of because they're afraid of health issues they're just they're just health issues they're just they're just health issues they're just they're just fine hey this is pretty awesome fine hey this is pretty awesome fine hey this is pretty awesome yeah yeah what do you how do you do how yeah yeah what do you how do you do how yeah yeah what do you how do you do how do you manage that do you manage that do you manage that even though they're still probably even though they're still probably even though they're still probably giving and i don't know if they're giving and i don't know if they're giving and i don't know if they're serving or not serving or not serving or not yeah yeah well um obviously there's a yeah yeah well um obviously there's a yeah yeah well um obviously there's a difference between engagement and difference between engagement and difference between engagement and attendance and all those kinds of attendance and all those kinds of attendance and all those kinds of conversations but conversations but conversations but i think the most important thing jason i think the most important thing jason i think the most important thing jason right off the top right off the top right off the top is approach all every person as an

is approach all every person as an is approach all every person as an individual with love and grace and not individual with love and grace and not individual with love and grace and not guilt guilt guilt for sure that's that's the better road for sure that's that's the better road for sure that's that's the better road because i think we could because i think we could because i think we could we could us preachers we could get a we could us preachers we could get a we could us preachers we could get a little preachy little preachy little preachy and start quoting hebrews and everything and start quoting hebrews and everything and start quoting hebrews and everything like that and like that and like that and while that's truth that's truth and while that's truth that's truth and while that's truth that's truth and that's good that's good that's good i don't know that that's helpful i think i don't know that that's helpful i think i don't know that that's helpful i think they need to feel the love and grace of they need to feel the love and grace of they need to feel the love and grace of the gospel and without guilt the gospel and without guilt the gospel and without guilt and then and then because you've got to and then and then because you've got to and then and then because you've got to have both sides otherwise it's just have both sides otherwise it's just have both sides otherwise it's just soft to nothing we are soft to nothing we are soft to nothing we are engaging with honest questions and so engaging with honest questions and so engaging with honest questions and so they they sense no guilt they sense love they they sense no guilt they sense love they they sense no guilt they sense love and grace which i highly recommend and and grace which i highly recommend and and grace which i highly recommend and then like hey let's talk about it then like hey let's talk about it then like hey let's talk about it what's preventing you from coming back what's preventing you from coming back what's preventing you from coming back would you like to come back would you like to come back would you like to come back when might you come back is there when might you come back is there when might you come back is there anything we can do for you know just anything we can do for you know just anything we can do for you know just engaging honest questions and we're engaging honest questions and we're engaging honest questions and we're finding that to be finding that to be finding that to be really productive and most respond and really productive and most respond and really productive and most respond and we actually have a couple of options we actually have a couple of options we actually have a couple of options either coming back to the big rooms the either coming back to the big rooms the either coming back to the big rooms the campuses campuses campuses or coming back to what we call a 12 or coming back to what we call a 12 or coming back to what we call a 12 stone home and those are stone home and those are stone home and those are those are in cafes and pubs and those are in cafes and pubs and those are in cafes and pubs and barns and and homes and but those are barns and and homes and but those are barns and and homes and but those are actual worship experiences it's just actual worship experiences it's just actual worship experiences it's just all digital but there's a leader it's all digital but there's a leader it's all digital but there's a leader it's impact-based it's impact-based it's impact-based it's uh they're a little bit larger it's not uh they're a little bit larger it's not uh they're a little bit larger it's not like a small group it's a little bit like a small group it's a little bit like a small group it's a little bit bigger thing so bigger thing so bigger thing so we have multiple options for people to we have multiple options for people to we have multiple options for people to to come in but i think that's the better to come in but i think that's the better to come in but i think that's the better the best way the best way the best way and when they're coming in i think we and when they're coming in i think we and when they're coming in i think we just can't miss just can't miss just can't miss um some critical things like spiritually

um some critical things like spiritually um some critical things like spiritually engaged worship engaged worship engaged worship i think that's so critical yeah i agree i think that's so critical yeah i agree i think that's so critical yeah i agree with you yeah because with you yeah because with you yeah because no one ever i always kind of sort of no one ever i always kind of sort of no one ever i always kind of sort of shook my head when the shook my head when the shook my head when the we were watching online they say okay we were watching online they say okay we were watching online they say okay everybody stand up i'm in my everybody stand up i'm in my everybody stand up i'm in my living room on my couch i'm not gonna living room on my couch i'm not gonna living room on my couch i'm not gonna stand up it just feels weird like stand up it just feels weird like stand up it just feels weird like and you don't know what you're and you don't know what you're and you don't know what you're confessing my family doesn't want to confessing my family doesn't want to confessing my family doesn't want to hear me sing yeah i confess i was not in hear me sing yeah i confess i was not in hear me sing yeah i confess i was not in the living room to stand up i was the living room to stand up i was the living room to stand up i was probably in the kitchen making probably in the kitchen making probably in the kitchen making bacon and pancakes while the worship bacon and pancakes while the worship bacon and pancakes while the worship band was playing band was playing band was playing so that i had my breakfast ready by the so that i had my breakfast ready by the so that i had my breakfast ready by the time the sermon started i'm just time the sermon started i'm just time the sermon started i'm just confessing my sin here confessing my sin here confessing my sin here fortunately my church was only closed in fortunately my church was only closed in fortunately my church was only closed in that capacity for that capacity for that capacity for a few months so i you know i was only a a few months so i you know i was only a a few months so i you know i was only a sinner for a few months but eventually sinner for a few months but eventually sinner for a few months but eventually he got back hey dan you're all good he got back hey dan you're all good he got back hey dan you're all good you're all good you're all good you're all good hey dan how are how are you gathering hey dan how are how are you gathering hey dan how are how are you gathering that information from that information from that information from the congregation is it through surveys the congregation is it through surveys the congregation is it through surveys uh phone calls or online or uh phone calls or online or uh phone calls or online or uh uh actually surveys no surveys were uh uh actually surveys no surveys were uh uh actually surveys no surveys were not a big survey uh not a big survey uh not a big survey uh one-on-one conversations by by the one-on-one conversations by by the one-on-one conversations by by the dozens and hundreds and hundreds we're dozens and hundreds and hundreds we're dozens and hundreds and hundreds we're wow we're just and almost everyone wow we're just and almost everyone wow we're just and almost everyone is the same we've had we've had so many is the same we've had we've had so many is the same we've had we've had so many people literally not back people literally not back people literally not back in a year and easter was kind of their in a year and easter was kind of their in a year and easter was kind of their mark mark mark and so it would go like this uh jason and so it would go like this uh jason and so it would go like this uh jason literally literally literally so man i know we love you guys we love so man i know we love you guys we love so man i know we love you guys we love the church and then they'll say the church and then they'll say the church and then they'll say we just kind of got out of the habit and we just kind of got out of the habit and we just kind of got out of the habit and we're coming back we're thinking about we're coming back we're thinking about we're coming back we're thinking about we're getting ready to come back we're getting ready to come back we're getting ready to come back i said so being given permission and i said so being given permission and i said so being given permission and they know i love them i said they know i love them i said they know i love them i said what is getting ready to come back mean

what is getting ready to come back mean what is getting ready to come back mean talk to me you know talk to me you know talk to me you know and so i discovered that i said well how and so i discovered that i said well how and so i discovered that i said well how about about about easter come back yeah that's a good idea easter come back yeah that's a good idea easter come back yeah that's a good idea and they came back and they've been back and they came back and they've been back and they came back and they've been back ever since ever since ever since so we're watching that happen over and so we're watching that happen over and so we're watching that happen over and over and over again and i would say it over and over again and i would say it over and over again and i would say it this way in two words this way in two words this way in two words a loving nudge is all it seems to take a loving nudge is all it seems to take a loving nudge is all it seems to take but it but but it's not happening but it but but it's not happening but it but but it's not happening without it without it without it i i've found in most of my most of my i i've found in most of my most of my i i've found in most of my most of my ministry ministry ministry life that the people that i've had the life that the people that i've had the life that the people that i've had the opportunity to to opportunity to to opportunity to to to lead and to shepherd and to influence to lead and to shepherd and to influence to lead and to shepherd and to influence always do better always do better always do better when you're able to give them some clear when you're able to give them some clear when you're able to give them some clear next step next step next step direction so i i you know i think that direction so i i you know i think that direction so i i you know i think that when we talk about assimilation and when we talk about assimilation and when we talk about assimilation and discipleship pathways and things like discipleship pathways and things like discipleship pathways and things like that that that you know we're always focused on next you know we're always focused on next you know we're always focused on next step but i step but i step but i to your point there i think for a lot of to your point there i think for a lot of to your point there i think for a lot of people their next step people their next step people their next step is merely figuring out how to get them is merely figuring out how to get them is merely figuring out how to get them to re-engage to re-engage to re-engage incarnationally in the body and maybe it incarnationally in the body and maybe it incarnationally in the body and maybe it is is is a large on campus in the worship a large on campus in the worship a large on campus in the worship center you know experience or maybe it's center you know experience or maybe it's center you know experience or maybe it's into into into a barn or a pub gathering that's a barn or a pub gathering that's a barn or a pub gathering that's probably where i would be probably where i would be probably where i would be if uh if i were at 12 stone i'd be in a if uh if i were at 12 stone i'd be in a if uh if i were at 12 stone i'd be in a bar bar bar barn or a pub you said barn right do you barn or a pub you said barn right do you barn or a pub you said barn right do you make barn services one i just was at make barn services one i just was at make barn services one i just was at last weekend was a last weekend was a last weekend was a a wonderful cool coffee shop cafe a wonderful cool coffee shop cafe a wonderful cool coffee shop cafe yeah and and yeah they have and then of yeah and and yeah they have and then of yeah and and yeah they have and then of course many of them in homes but they're course many of them in homes but they're course many of them in homes but they're really cool and the diversity of people

really cool and the diversity of people really cool and the diversity of people who show up is amazing who show up is amazing who show up is amazing yeah and so i i yeah i think that yeah and so i i yeah i think that yeah and so i i yeah i think that casting vision for people giving them a casting vision for people giving them a casting vision for people giving them a compelling compelling compelling giving them a compelling reason for giving them a compelling reason for giving them a compelling reason for their own spiritual journey their own spiritual journey their own spiritual journey as to why it's important to be there not as to why it's important to be there not as to why it's important to be there not guilting them into it guilting them into it guilting them into it right um and i i want to i want to go right um and i i want to i want to go right um and i i want to i want to go back to just that back to just that back to just that that question again and reframe it a that question again and reframe it a that question again and reframe it a little bit little bit little bit because dan you're part of a very large because dan you're part of a very large because dan you're part of a very large church church church jason you're part of a large church the jason you're part of a large church the jason you're part of a large church the church that i'm a part of is a large church that i'm a part of is a large church that i'm a part of is a large church church church and i can tell you that you know with a and i can tell you that you know with a and i can tell you that you know with a church of 10 000 people or church of 10 000 people or church of 10 000 people or more most of our leaders most of our more most of our leaders most of our more most of our leaders most of our staff people staff people staff people they don't even know the names of a lot they don't even know the names of a lot they don't even know the names of a lot of people who haven't come back they of people who haven't come back they of people who haven't come back they don't have that kind of connection don't have that kind of connection don't have that kind of connection 95 percent of churches in our country um 95 percent of churches in our country um 95 percent of churches in our country um don't have that problem you know they've don't have that problem you know they've don't have that problem you know they've got 500 or fewer people in them got 500 or fewer people in them got 500 or fewer people in them um a lot of pastors that i think that um a lot of pastors that i think that um a lot of pastors that i think that are really hurting and struggling the are really hurting and struggling the are really hurting and struggling the most or that most or that most or that the pastors of a church of 150 or 200 or the pastors of a church of 150 or 200 or the pastors of a church of 150 or 200 or 250 250 250 where the people who have left and where the people who have left and where the people who have left and they're not coming back were actually they're not coming back were actually they're not coming back were actually friends friends friends and ministry allies and people they've and ministry allies and people they've and ministry allies and people they've been really connected with been really connected with been really connected with so how would you coach a pastor in that so how would you coach a pastor in that so how would you coach a pastor in that type of scenario type of scenario type of scenario as it relates to managing both those as it relates to managing both those as it relates to managing both those relationships as well as the stewardship relationships as well as the stewardship relationships as well as the stewardship responsibility that they have to try to responsibility that they have to try to responsibility that they have to try to help help help keep those people growing in their faith keep those people growing in their faith keep those people growing in their faith and connected to the church and connected to the church and connected to the church and the smaller environments in the and the smaller environments in the and the smaller environments in the smaller church environment yeah yeah smaller church environment yeah yeah smaller church environment yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm just coaching a young pastor in that i'm just coaching a young pastor in that i'm just coaching a young pastor in that in that very situation and and one of

in that very situation and and one of in that very situation and and one of the things one of the first things we the things one of the first things we the things one of the first things we talked about was talked about was talked about was helping him get past his discouragement helping him get past his discouragement helping him get past his discouragement because he was just so stuck in because he was just so stuck in because he was just so stuck in discouragement thinking discouragement thinking discouragement thinking where's god and and and the people are where's god and and and the people are where's god and and and the people are gone and i poured my life into them and gone and i poured my life into them and gone and i poured my life into them and and and i i think that's the first step and and i i think that's the first step and and i i think that's the first step for for pastors because i really do for for pastors because i really do for for pastors because i really do believe believe believe bart that one of the number one tactics bart that one of the number one tactics bart that one of the number one tactics of the enemy of the enemy of the enemy against spiritual leaders is against spiritual leaders is against spiritual leaders is discouragement discouragement discouragement and so we gotta help each other rise and so we gotta help each other rise and so we gotta help each other rise above that above that above that and see it differently where um and see it differently where um and see it differently where um they are yes we love our flock we love they are yes we love our flock we love they are yes we love our flock we love the congregation the congregation the congregation and we're responsible for every everyone and we're responsible for every everyone and we're responsible for every everyone and yet and yet and yet we they don't belong to us and if they we they don't belong to us and if they we they don't belong to us and if they go to another church or another thing go to another church or another thing go to another church or another thing that's that's that's okay and to focus on them one at a time okay and to focus on them one at a time okay and to focus on them one at a time just to focus on one at a time be just to focus on one at a time be just to focus on one at a time be grateful for what god brings back grateful for what god brings back grateful for what god brings back and to get a little bit strategic here and to get a little bit strategic here and to get a little bit strategic here because i know we're on the hard side of because i know we're on the hard side of because i know we're on the hard side of of of shepherding of of shepherding of of shepherding but working on that discouragement focus but working on that discouragement focus but working on that discouragement focus on one at a time on one at a time on one at a time and then as they come back after a while and then as they come back after a while and then as they come back after a while you have to stop you have to stop you have to stop chasing people that don't want to be chasing people that don't want to be chasing people that don't want to be chased otherwise that discouragement you chased otherwise that discouragement you chased otherwise that discouragement you just just just get pulled into that that place get pulled into that that place get pulled into that that place but after a while i think go after the but after a while i think go after the but after a while i think go after the you know pour into the ones who do oh you know pour into the ones who do oh you know pour into the ones who do oh who are ready to receive it and go who are ready to receive it and go who are ready to receive it and go for the new ones that god brings your for the new ones that god brings your for the new ones that god brings your way way way and focus there otherwise i think our

and focus there otherwise i think our and focus there otherwise i think our wonderful pastors can get stuck in wonderful pastors can get stuck in wonderful pastors can get stuck in discouragement discouragement discouragement and that's just not a good place to live and that's just not a good place to live and that's just not a good place to live yeah yeah thank you for sharing that i i yeah yeah thank you for sharing that i i yeah yeah thank you for sharing that i i just you know just you know just you know i was past our own staff at a couple of i was past our own staff at a couple of i was past our own staff at a couple of churches and neither of them were churches and neither of them were churches and neither of them were large churches and i'm still friends large churches and i'm still friends large churches and i'm still friends with the staff and the leaders in those with the staff and the leaders in those with the staff and the leaders in those churches and i just churches and i just churches and i just see it firsthand all the time the see it firsthand all the time the see it firsthand all the time the discouragement that's you discouragement that's you discouragement that's you i mean that's the word you chose to use i mean that's the word you chose to use i mean that's the word you chose to use and that describes and defines very well and that describes and defines very well and that describes and defines very well um what i'm seeing with a lot of pastors um what i'm seeing with a lot of pastors um what i'm seeing with a lot of pastors you know just going back to what you you know just going back to what you you know just going back to what you were saying before it's like it was the were saying before it's like it was the were saying before it's like it was the is covered a real thing or a not a real is covered a real thing or a not a real is covered a real thing or a not a real thing should we be open should we not be thing should we be open should we not be thing should we be open should we not be open should we wear masks should we not open should we wear masks should we not open should we wear masks should we not wear masks and wear masks and wear masks and you know pastors in in normal sized you know pastors in in normal sized you know pastors in in normal sized churches that's what i like to call them churches that's what i like to call them churches that's what i like to call them in the normal sized church and they've in the normal sized church and they've in the normal sized church and they've just you know they're they were just you know they're they were just you know they're they were losing friends and losing allies left losing friends and losing allies left losing friends and losing allies left and right as a result of trying to do and right as a result of trying to do and right as a result of trying to do the right the right the right thing for the people in their church thing for the people in their church thing for the people in their church community and uh and so i know a lot of community and uh and so i know a lot of community and uh and so i know a lot of them are discouraged and i appreciate them are discouraged and i appreciate them are discouraged and i appreciate what you shared there and hopefully if what you shared there and hopefully if what you shared there and hopefully if there are some of those pastors that are there are some of those pastors that are there are some of those pastors that are navigating that right now and listening navigating that right now and listening navigating that right now and listening they'll take those three points that you they'll take those three points that you they'll take those three points that you just shared and and and find a way to just shared and and and find a way to just shared and and and find a way to apply that apply that apply that but man you're right i think the the but man you're right i think the the but man you're right i think the the discouragement is a key tool for the discouragement is a key tool for the discouragement is a key tool for the for the enemy and how he makes us for the enemy and how he makes us for the enemy and how he makes us ineffective in our ineffective in our ineffective in our in our ministry um i'd like to just kind in our ministry um i'd like to just kind in our ministry um i'd like to just kind of of of kind of wrap things up a little bit um kind of wrap things up a little bit um kind of wrap things up a little bit um and uh we have a couple other questions and uh we have a couple other questions and uh we have a couple other questions for you here just to kind of close for you here just to kind of close for you here just to kind of close things out things out things out um you know there's been a lot that's um you know there's been a lot that's um you know there's been a lot that's gone on here in the last gone on here in the last gone on here in the last year and even prior to that i know you year and even prior to that i know you year and even prior to that i know you you're connected with a lot of churches

you're connected with a lot of churches you're connected with a lot of churches and a lot of church leaders and you've and a lot of church leaders and you've and a lot of church leaders and you've kind of got your finger on the pulse of kind of got your finger on the pulse of kind of got your finger on the pulse of what's happening in the what's happening in the what's happening in the in the church space here at least in in in the church space here at least in in in the church space here at least in in our country our country our country um what are some churches or who are um what are some churches or who are um what are some churches or who are some leaders that you some leaders that you some leaders that you uh have seen kind of navigate into and uh have seen kind of navigate into and uh have seen kind of navigate into and through through through and out of covid well um and uh and out of covid well um and uh and out of covid well um and uh yeah what what are some of the things yeah what what are some of the things yeah what what are some of the things that you're seeing that are kind of that you're seeing that are kind of that you're seeing that are kind of outside the 12 stone that you guys are outside the 12 stone that you guys are outside the 12 stone that you guys are learning from learning from learning from and and looking to so um first thing and and looking to so um first thing and and looking to so um first thing another good positive encouraging note i another good positive encouraging note i another good positive encouraging note i think there are many think there are many think there are many many churches that are doing really well many churches that are doing really well many churches that are doing really well quote-unquote postcode quote-unquote postcode quote-unquote postcode depends on what you what you believe and depends on what you what you believe and depends on what you what you believe and all um all um all um and by the way when i say when i say and by the way when i say when i say and by the way when i say when i say doing really really well doing really really well doing really really well because you're right we do get to talk because you're right we do get to talk because you're right we do get to talk to a number i'm on a another xp to a number i'm on a another xp to a number i'm on a another xp roundtable this roundtable this roundtable this this afternoon where we get to talk to this afternoon where we get to talk to this afternoon where we get to talk to each other live and what's each other live and what's each other live and what's what's happening and i would say anybody what's happening and i would say anybody what's happening and i would say anybody who any church that is who any church that is who any church that is has more than 50 percent of their has more than 50 percent of their has more than 50 percent of their congregation congregation congregation back now from pre-covet you're doing back now from pre-covet you're doing back now from pre-covet you're doing well i just want to encourage you you're well i just want to encourage you you're well i just want to encourage you you're doing well don't be doing well don't be doing well don't be don't get stuck or discouraged if you're don't get stuck or discouraged if you're don't get stuck or discouraged if you're not there but even not there but even not there but even 50 or more you're doing really well and 50 or more you're doing really well and 50 or more you're doing really well and keep going keep going keep going uh to your question bart um uh some uh to your question bart um uh some uh to your question bart um uh some churches i guess we all know but churches i guess we all know but churches i guess we all know but it this is who i would say life church it this is who i would say life church it this is who i would say life church uh uh uh you know based with you know there with you know based with you know there with you know based with you know there with craig shelbus in oklahoma craig shelbus in oklahoma craig shelbus in oklahoma doing a really great job you know if doing a really great job you know if doing a really great job you know if anybody want to check out what they're anybody want to check out what they're anybody want to check out what they're doing doing doing i think another one that's um one of my i think another one that's um one of my i think another one that's um one of my favorites they're just brilliant at what

favorites they're just brilliant at what favorites they're just brilliant at what they do they do they do love god and everything is his church of love god and everything is his church of love god and everything is his church of the highlands you know the highlands you know the highlands you know uh with um the great team there uh with um the great team there uh with um the great team there and then one in your backyard jason is and then one in your backyard jason is and then one in your backyard jason is ccv in phoenix ccv in phoenix ccv in phoenix at christ church of the valley they're at christ church of the valley they're at christ church of the valley they're doing an extraordinary job but there's doing an extraordinary job but there's doing an extraordinary job but there's many many many who are doing many many many who are doing many many many who are doing really well and i'm because i love the really well and i'm because i love the really well and i'm because i love the church i'm encouraged by that church i'm encouraged by that church i'm encouraged by that i i know it's difficult and it's it is i i know it's difficult and it's it is i i know it's difficult and it's it is different different different but i'm completely convinced i'm very but i'm completely convinced i'm very but i'm completely convinced i'm very confident we're going to come out confident we're going to come out confident we're going to come out on the other side better and stronger on the other side better and stronger on the other side better and stronger we're just not quite there yet but we're we're just not quite there yet but we're we're just not quite there yet but we're on the way um on the way um on the way um yeah i uh i appreciate that because i yeah i uh i appreciate that because i yeah i uh i appreciate that because i think as you get think as you get think as you get and i've said this before we were in the and i've said this before we were in the and i've said this before we were in the midst of this of the coveted crisis midst of this of the coveted crisis midst of this of the coveted crisis i was encouraging churches because i get i was encouraging churches because i get i was encouraging churches because i get a lot of discouraged pastors going man a lot of discouraged pastors going man a lot of discouraged pastors going man you know you know you know our giving is is okay but it's been a our giving is is okay but it's been a our giving is is okay but it's been a little down and our numbers are okay in little down and our numbers are okay in little down and our numbers are okay in terms of online views but we're just terms of online views but we're just terms of online views but we're just concerned about where we're going concerned about where we're going concerned about where we're going i said hey look you've got the best and i said hey look you've got the best and i said hey look you've got the best and the brightest the brightest the brightest all of us all of us churches that are 50 all of us all of us churches that are 50 all of us all of us churches that are 50 000 people or 50 people 000 people or 50 people 000 people or 50 people are all in the same boat so just are all in the same boat so just are all in the same boat so just understand understand understand you've got some seriously talented you've got some seriously talented you've got some seriously talented gifted wise leaders gifted wise leaders gifted wise leaders thinking about this stuff so pay thinking about this stuff so pay thinking about this stuff so pay attention to what's going attention to what's going attention to what's going on because that it's going to ripple on because that it's going to ripple on because that it's going to ripple down and you know guys like craig and down and you know guys like craig and down and you know guys like craig and you know andy and all those guys that you know andy and all those guys that you know andy and all those guys that are are are leaders in this space down to the ones leaders in this space down to the ones leaders in this space down to the ones that are running a church of that are running a church of that are running a church of 1500 we're all in the same boat and so 1500 we're all in the same boat and so 1500 we're all in the same boat and so it is encouraging because i i do hear

it is encouraging because i i do hear it is encouraging because i i do hear you know when it's a smaller church more you know when it's a smaller church more you know when it's a smaller church more people are coming back in terms of people are coming back in terms of people are coming back in terms of percentages percentages percentages but they shouldn't stop you know they but they shouldn't stop you know they but they shouldn't stop you know they need to keep going so need to keep going so need to keep going so yeah i appreciate it one last question yeah i appreciate it one last question yeah i appreciate it one last question okay as a leader dan you're that's one okay as a leader dan you're that's one okay as a leader dan you're that's one of the things that you're known as of the things that you're known as of the things that you're known as you've been a leader in you've been a leader in you've been a leader in a number of churches and number a number of churches and number a number of churches and number organizations um what do you do to organizations um what do you do to organizations um what do you do to sharpen the saw to make sure that you sharpen the saw to make sure that you sharpen the saw to make sure that you are are are learning and that you're still growing learning and that you're still growing learning and that you're still growing as a leader who are you looking to what as a leader who are you looking to what as a leader who are you looking to what are you listening to what are your are you listening to what are your are you listening to what are your reading reading reading anything that you can share with jason anything that you can share with jason anything that you can share with jason and me because we want to get better and me because we want to get better and me because we want to get better at what we do as leaders and then the at what we do as leaders and then the at what we do as leaders and then the byproduct is that the people who byproduct is that the people who byproduct is that the people who actually listen to this podcast might be actually listen to this podcast might be actually listen to this podcast might be able to benefit from that as well but able to benefit from that as well but able to benefit from that as well but this is a selfish moment this is a selfish moment this is a selfish moment tell me how i can be a better leader tell me how i can be a better leader tell me how i can be a better leader based on what you're learning based on what you're learning based on what you're learning well you know there's a large question well you know there's a large question well you know there's a large question because i am a student of leadership i because i am a student of leadership i because i am a student of leadership i love to grow i love to keep learning love to grow i love to keep learning love to grow i love to keep learning i have mentors who still pour into me i i have mentors who still pour into me i i have mentors who still pour into me i seek them out seek them out seek them out regularly and um another way though regularly and um another way though regularly and um another way though at my age and stage for the way i keep at my age and stage for the way i keep at my age and stage for the way i keep growing is i actually intentionally hang growing is i actually intentionally hang growing is i actually intentionally hang out with out with out with really young staff and really young really young staff and really young really young staff and really young adults and really young thinkers and adults and really young thinkers and adults and really young thinkers and leaders and leaders and leaders and keeps me young i want to know what they keeps me young i want to know what they keeps me young i want to know what they watch on tv i want to know what music watch on tv i want to know what music watch on tv i want to know what music they listen to i want to they listen to i want to they listen to i want to you know i don't try to pretend i am you know i don't try to pretend i am you know i don't try to pretend i am them them them that won't work but that keeps me young that won't work but that keeps me young that won't work but that keeps me young keeps me growing keeps me growing keeps me growing to your question more specifically i to your question more specifically i to your question more specifically i think we've mentioned some i think we've mentioned some i think we've mentioned some i i think i mentioned carrie newhoff i i think i mentioned carrie newhoff i i think i mentioned carrie newhoff i think his his uh podcast is phenomenal think his his uh podcast is phenomenal think his his uh podcast is phenomenal i love listening to craig and and andy i love listening to craig and and andy i love listening to craig and and andy uh their leadership podcast craig uh their leadership podcast craig uh their leadership podcast craig rochelle andy stanley just rochelle andy stanley just rochelle andy stanley just really really smart but again there's so

really really smart but again there's so really really smart but again there's so many there's so much i'm a book guy i many there's so much i'm a book guy i many there's so much i'm a book guy i love it love it love it so um so i actually so um so i actually so um so i actually grabbed a couple books because i knew grabbed a couple books because i knew grabbed a couple books because i knew you could ask this question i thought you could ask this question i thought you could ask this question i thought i'm going to do something different i'm going to do something different i'm going to do something different today rather than naming all these today rather than naming all these today rather than naming all these leadership books i'm reading or have leadership books i'm reading or have leadership books i'm reading or have read read read or what i should recommend or what's on or what i should recommend or what's on or what i should recommend or what's on my blog post my blog post my blog post list of books to read so and i just list of books to read so and i just list of books to read so and i just grabbed literally on my desk grabbed literally on my desk grabbed literally on my desk the books that are on my stack to read the books that are on my stack to read the books that are on my stack to read right now right now right now and there and i picked ones that are not and there and i picked ones that are not and there and i picked ones that are not so i'm so i'm so i'm i am not shamelessly promoting mine i'm i am not shamelessly promoting mine i'm i am not shamelessly promoting mine i'm stupidly not promoting mine so these are not leadership books and so these are not leadership books and they're highly recommended to me they're highly recommended to me they're highly recommended to me i can't wait to read them this one the i can't wait to read them this one the i can't wait to read them this one the infinite game by infinite game by infinite game by simon sinek i'm looking for that this is simon sinek i'm looking for that this is simon sinek i'm looking for that this is going to be a really really good book going to be a really really good book going to be a really really good book it's not about winning and losing but it's not about winning and losing but it's not about winning and losing but the longer play the longer game the longer play the longer game the longer play the longer game this one is highly recommended i'm this one is highly recommended i'm this one is highly recommended i'm looking forward to canoeing in the looking forward to canoeing in the looking forward to canoeing in the mountains i don't know if you've read mountains i don't know if you've read mountains i don't know if you've read this but it's a this but it's a this but it's a it's it's a strong stronghold i have it's it's a strong stronghold i have it's it's a strong stronghold i have read that one i i'm a read that one i i'm a read that one i i'm a i'm i'm a lewis and clark fanatic i'm i'm a lewis and clark fanatic i'm i'm a lewis and clark fanatic i just i've read so many books about i just i've read so many books about i just i've read so many books about that and when i found out about that that and when i found out about that that and when i found out about that book book book i was like oh i grabbed it like the day i was like oh i grabbed it like the day i was like oh i grabbed it like the day it came out it came out it came out such a fantastic book yes very well such a fantastic book yes very well such a fantastic book yes very well worth the read worth the read worth the read very well worked degrees yeah and i got very well worked degrees yeah and i got very well worked degrees yeah and i got one more by adam grant one more by adam grant one more by adam grant um i know i've not read these books but um i know i've not read these books but um i know i've not read these books but i i've i i've i i've looked at them i stand it think again uh looked at them i stand it think again uh looked at them i stand it think again uh i'm i'm i'm pumped about this one too so there's a pumped about this one too so there's a pumped about this one too so there's a few i do have to mention one

few i do have to mention one few i do have to mention one i'm i'm gonna contradict myself a couple i'm i'm gonna contradict myself a couple i'm i'm gonna contradict myself a couple of books that i've read in pairs it's of books that i've read in pairs it's of books that i've read in pairs it's been a little while now maybe 18 been a little while now maybe 18 been a little while now maybe 18 months two years ago but they're so good months two years ago but they're so good months two years ago but they're so good and they're so strong and they're so strong and they're so strong and they seem so applicable right now and they seem so applicable right now and they seem so applicable right now um i should have written down the um i should have written down the um i should have written down the authors and everything but um authors and everything but um authors and everything but um essentialism by mcgowan i think it's is essentialism by mcgowan i think it's is essentialism by mcgowan i think it's is it craig mcgowan it craig mcgowan it craig mcgowan uh but essentialism and then deep work uh but essentialism and then deep work uh but essentialism and then deep work by calport the scene by calport the scene by calport the scene cal newport i think but anyways it's new cal newport i think but anyways it's new cal newport i think but anyways it's new it's a deep work it's a deep work it's a deep work and essentialism and they really and essentialism and they really and essentialism and they really dovetail together dovetail together dovetail together for just going to a deeper place and for just going to a deeper place and for just going to a deeper place and this is the time and space where this is the time and space where this is the time and space where surface just doesn't cut it anymore in surface just doesn't cut it anymore in surface just doesn't cut it anymore in your personal life in the church surface your personal life in the church surface your personal life in the church surface just just just is out and so that helps to is out and so that helps to is out and so that helps to wrestle down in the complexity of those wrestle down in the complexity of those wrestle down in the complexity of those two books two books two books of the swirl and the fast and the stuff of the swirl and the fast and the stuff of the swirl and the fast and the stuff going working twice as hard for half the going working twice as hard for half the going working twice as hard for half the results all the stuff we talk about results all the stuff we talk about results all the stuff we talk about those two books are really really great those two books are really really great those two books are really really great okay i'm going to let you pl i'm going okay i'm going to let you pl i'm going okay i'm going to let you pl i'm going to ask you to go ahead and plug your to ask you to go ahead and plug your to ask you to go ahead and plug your book though okay book though okay book though okay wrap it up we're gonna wrap things up wrap it up we're gonna wrap things up wrap it up we're gonna wrap things up how you tell us your most recent how you tell us your most recent how you tell us your most recent book that you've written plug it plug it book that you've written plug it plug it book that you've written plug it plug it i get it i get it i get it go ahead plug it plug it um the book go ahead plug it plug it um the book go ahead plug it plug it um the book just came out last year a just came out last year a just came out last year a genius time to launch a book is genius time to launch a book is genius time to launch a book is literally april literally april literally april [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] just beautiful timing after two years of just beautiful timing after two years of just beautiful timing after two years of work but it was called confident work but it was called confident work but it was called confident leader and uh just really excited about

leader and uh just really excited about leader and uh just really excited about the interviews that are in it the interviews that are in it the interviews that are in it and the the biblical narratives but it's and the the biblical narratives but it's and the the biblical narratives but it's a very practical book a very practical book a very practical book confident leader um and and confident leader um and and confident leader um and and i i think it's being a help to a lot of i i think it's being a help to a lot of i i think it's being a help to a lot of leaders right now leaders right now leaders right now and i'm actually finishing up another and i'm actually finishing up another and i'm actually finishing up another one my first ever devotional one my first ever devotional one my first ever devotional written specifically directly to leaders written specifically directly to leaders written specifically directly to leaders and that should be out in the fall so and that should be out in the fall so and that should be out in the fall so i'm really pumped about that i'm really pumped about that i'm really pumped about that oh wow that's awesome that oh wow that's awesome that oh wow that's awesome that is your leadership isn't enough is your leadership isn't enough is your leadership isn't enough your leadership is is that is that your leadership is is that is that your leadership is is that is that available for pre-order yet or is that available for pre-order yet or is that available for pre-order yet or is that still pending still pending still pending not yet yeah we're still peddling fast not yet yeah we're still peddling fast not yet yeah we're still peddling fast but we'll get it okay but we'll get it okay but we'll get it okay all right well we'll we'll we will link all right well we'll we'll we will link all right well we'll we'll we will link to your blog your book and everything to your blog your book and everything to your blog your book and everything in the show notes here uh you are um in the show notes here uh you are um in the show notes here uh you are um you are a gift to the church i you are a gift to the church i you are a gift to the church i appreciate that um you know i don't appreciate that um you know i don't appreciate that um you know i don't spend a whole lot of time on twitter spend a whole lot of time on twitter spend a whole lot of time on twitter uh it i i get on there i don't know why uh it i i get on there i don't know why uh it i i get on there i don't know why but i'm grateful that i did i'm glad but i'm grateful that i did i'm glad but i'm grateful that i did i'm glad that i did and i ran across that post that i did and i ran across that post that i did and i ran across that post that you wrote and i'm really grateful that you wrote and i'm really grateful that you wrote and i'm really grateful that you that you that you said yes to a couple of guys that you said yes to a couple of guys that you said yes to a couple of guys that you don't know uh to have a conversation and don't know uh to have a conversation and don't know uh to have a conversation and just let us pick your brain on things just let us pick your brain on things just let us pick your brain on things that are going on in in the church world that are going on in in the church world that are going on in in the church world today today today uh dan thank you so much uh for the uh dan thank you so much uh for the uh dan thank you so much uh for the generosity of your time generosity of your time generosity of your time and your leadership and your influence and your leadership and your influence and your leadership and your influence uh jason anything that you want to add uh jason anything that you want to add uh jason anything that you want to add as well i just as well i just as well i just no i think i i've you know there if no i think i i've you know there if no i think i i've you know there if there's a nugget anybody out there there's a nugget anybody out there there's a nugget anybody out there uh needs to learn it's that everybody uh needs to learn it's that everybody uh needs to learn it's that everybody has one of these has one of these has one of these these are called they're called cell these are called they're called cell these are called they're called cell phones and they're actually invented to

phones and they're actually invented to phones and they're actually invented to talk talk talk so you can actually pick you can so you can actually pick you can so you can actually pick you can actually call people and check into how actually call people and check into how actually call people and check into how they're doing so i think ministry they're doing so i think ministry they're doing so i think ministry leaders leaders leaders you know programming is good ministries you know programming is good ministries you know programming is good ministries better better better call people that's just the takeaway call people that's just the takeaway call people that's just the takeaway right there right there right there no doubt well thank you for the invite no doubt well thank you for the invite no doubt well thank you for the invite i'd love to do it again i'd love to do it again i'd love to do it again let me know this has been fun it's been let me know this has been fun it's been let me know this has been fun it's been fun to get to know you guys a little bit fun to get to know you guys a little bit fun to get to know you guys a little bit and i pray god really continues to bless and i pray god really continues to bless and i pray god really continues to bless what you're doing because we really are what you're doing because we really are what you're doing because we really are i really mean this we really are all in i really mean this we really are all in i really mean this we really are all in it together it together it together it's a big team we say all the time you it's a big team we say all the time you it's a big team we say all the time you know god's doing know god's doing know god's doing god's doing really really really big god's doing really really really big god's doing really really really big things outside of 12 stone and it's just things outside of 12 stone and it's just things outside of 12 stone and it's just fun to hear about them fun to hear about them fun to hear about them yeah yeah well thank you for your yeah yeah well thank you for your yeah yeah well thank you for your ministry i appreciate your time ministry i appreciate your time ministry i appreciate your time appreciate your time