Volunteers vs. Vendors | Jason and Bart

she's going to hire somebody in the she's going to hire somebody in the hopes that this person can run hopes that this person can run hopes that this person can run advertising and do web and and all these advertising and do web and and all these advertising and do web and and all these kinds of things. And I think, well, kinds of things. And I think, well, kinds of things. And I think, well, that's that's a good approach to it, but that's that's a good approach to it, but that's that's a good approach to it, but there are no unicorns. So, be careful there are no unicorns. So, be careful there are no unicorns. So, be careful who you hire, be careful of the vendor who you hire, be careful of the vendor who you hire, be careful of the vendor you choose, and be careful the volunteer you choose, and be careful the volunteer you choose, and be careful the volunteer that you're going to lean on. Welcome to that you're going to lean on. Welcome to that you're going to lean on. Welcome to episode number 184 of the Missional episode number 184 of the Missional episode number 184 of the Missional Marketing Podcast. I'm Bart Blair joined Marketing Podcast. I'm Bart Blair joined Marketing Podcast. I'm Bart Blair joined by the CEO of Mission Marketing, Mr. by the CEO of Mission Marketing, Mr. by the CEO of Mission Marketing, Mr. Jason Hamrock. Good day, Jason. Jason Hamrock. Good day, Jason. Jason Hamrock. Good day, Jason. >> Good day, Bart. How you doing today, my >> Good day, Bart. How you doing today, my >> Good day, Bart. How you doing today, my friend? friend? friend? >> I'm doing very well. I'm glad to join >> I'm doing very well. I'm glad to join >> I'm doing very well. I'm glad to join you. We've been doing this for years you. We've been doing this for years you. We've been doing this for years now, like over six year, over six years, now, like over six year, over six years, now, like over six year, over six years, we've been producing this podcast. we've been producing this podcast. we've been producing this podcast. >> Our goal is to help churches grow by >> Our goal is to help churches grow by >> Our goal is to help churches grow by leveraging digital marketing and leveraging digital marketing and leveraging digital marketing and effective communications so that effective communications so that effective communications so that churches can reach more people. churches can reach more people. churches can reach more people. Ultimately, that's our heart. We know Ultimately, that's our heart. We know Ultimately, that's our heart. We know that's the the heart of the local that's the the heart of the local that's the the heart of the local church. And uh we hope that this content church. And uh we hope that this content church. And uh we hope that this content that we're creating is uh is is helpful that we're creating is uh is is helpful that we're creating is uh is is helpful to someone somewhere. Uh I'm I'm to someone somewhere. Uh I'm I'm to someone somewhere. Uh I'm I'm confident that it is. confident that it is. confident that it is. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We want to we want to bring >> Yeah. We want to we want to bring >> Yeah. We want to we want to bring refreshing ideas to your to your plate refreshing ideas to your to your plate refreshing ideas to your to your plate so that you church can can run with it so that you church can can run with it so that you church can can run with it and let the Lord speak into what you're and let the Lord speak into what you're and let the Lord speak into what you're doing in your job. So thanks for doing in your job. So thanks for doing in your job. So thanks for listening in.

listening in. listening in. >> Yeah. And we want to come at this too >> Yeah. And we want to come at this too >> Yeah. And we want to come at this too from the standpoint of being from the standpoint of being from the standpoint of being practitioners. Uh Jason has uh had had a practitioners. Uh Jason has uh had had a practitioners. Uh Jason has uh had had a season in ministry over about a dozen season in ministry over about a dozen season in ministry over about a dozen years uh as a communications director in years uh as a communications director in years uh as a communications director in a church. Uh I have been a pastor and a a church. Uh I have been a pastor and a a church. Uh I have been a pastor and a church planter and have managed church planter and have managed church planter and have managed communications in multiple churches. And communications in multiple churches. And communications in multiple churches. And so although I've never been in so although I've never been in so although I've never been in communications director role, I've done communications director role, I've done communications director role, I've done a lot of communications. And so we try a lot of communications. And so we try a lot of communications. And so we try to come at this as if it's hey if if if to come at this as if it's hey if if if to come at this as if it's hey if if if we were sitting in your seat, these are we were sitting in your seat, these are we were sitting in your seat, these are the questions we'd be asking. These are the questions we'd be asking. These are the questions we'd be asking. These are the things that we'd be prioritizing and the things that we'd be prioritizing and the things that we'd be prioritizing and uh and and we want to help you there. uh and and we want to help you there. uh and and we want to help you there. Now, Jason, before we get into to the Now, Jason, before we get into to the Now, Jason, before we get into to the content of today's episode, um I don't content of today's episode, um I don't content of today's episode, um I don't know if you noticed this. We were on a know if you noticed this. We were on a know if you noticed this. We were on a staff meeting earlier today. No one said staff meeting earlier today. No one said staff meeting earlier today. No one said anything to me about it when we were on anything to me about it when we were on anything to me about it when we were on our leadership team meeting, and you our leadership team meeting, and you our leadership team meeting, and you haven't said anything yet. And if you're haven't said anything yet. And if you're haven't said anything yet. And if you're watching on our YouTube channel, you watching on our YouTube channel, you watching on our YouTube channel, you might notice that I have this great big might notice that I have this great big might notice that I have this great big wound on my head. Did you Did you see wound on my head. Did you Did you see wound on my head. Did you Did you see this? I didn't ask. this? I didn't ask. this? I didn't ask. >> Okay. All right. So, so for for sake of >> Okay. All right. So, so for for sake of >> Okay. All right. So, so for for sake of full disclosure, I was playing golf a full disclosure, I was playing golf a full disclosure, I was playing golf a few days ago, and I got paired up with a few days ago, and I got paired up with a few days ago, and I got paired up with a guy who really didn't play much golf.

guy who really didn't play much golf. guy who really didn't play much golf. You play a little bit of golf. I play a You play a little bit of golf. I play a You play a little bit of golf. I play a little bit of golf. One thing that's little bit of golf. One thing that's little bit of golf. One thing that's different about golf in Texas versus different about golf in Texas versus different about golf in Texas versus golf in Arizona is that our golf courses golf in Arizona is that our golf courses golf in Arizona is that our golf courses have lots of trees. Yours have like sand have lots of trees. Yours have like sand have lots of trees. Yours have like sand and cactuses and things like that. We and cactuses and things like that. We and cactuses and things like that. We have lots and lots of trees. The guy have lots and lots of trees. The guy have lots and lots of trees. The guy that I was playing golf with, and if if that I was playing golf with, and if if that I was playing golf with, and if if you're listening to this podcast and you're listening to this podcast and you're listening to this podcast and you're not a golfer, this won't make any you're not a golfer, this won't make any you're not a golfer, this won't make any sense to you. But if you are a golfer, sense to you. But if you are a golfer, sense to you. But if you are a golfer, you will totally understand. The guy you will totally understand. The guy you will totally understand. The guy that I was playing golf with um wasn't a that I was playing golf with um wasn't a that I was playing golf with um wasn't a very experienced golfer. And on the very experienced golfer. And on the very experienced golfer. And on the first te, he hit his first ball into the first te, he hit his first ball into the first te, he hit his first ball into the woods and it was lost. And on the second woods and it was lost. And on the second woods and it was lost. And on the second tee, he hit his ball into the woods and tee, he hit his ball into the woods and tee, he hit his ball into the woods and it was lost. And I looked at him and I it was lost. And I looked at him and I it was lost. And I looked at him and I said, "I hope you brought a lot of golf said, "I hope you brought a lot of golf said, "I hope you brought a lot of golf balls today." And he said, "Well, I only balls today." And he said, "Well, I only balls today." And he said, "Well, I only brought three." brought three." brought three." >> So, um, when you've lost two out of your >> So, um, when you've lost two out of your >> So, um, when you've lost two out of your three golf balls in the first two holes three golf balls in the first two holes three golf balls in the first two holes out of 18, you know, you're in trouble. out of 18, you know, you're in trouble. out of 18, you know, you're in trouble. I mean, I I I think most of us would I mean, I I I think most of us would I mean, I I I think most of us would probably, you know, carry at least a probably, you know, carry at least a probably, you know, carry at least a dozen dozen dozen >> at least >> at least >> at least >> found balls in the bottom of the bag >> found balls in the bottom of the bag >> found balls in the bottom of the bag because, you know, you're going to lose because, you know, you're going to lose because, you know, you're going to lose some. So after he lost the second golf some. So after he lost the second golf some. So after he lost the second golf ball, I was like, "This could be a ball, I was like, "This could be a ball, I was like, "This could be a problem." So the next hole, he hits a problem." So the next hole, he hits a problem." So the next hole, he hits a ball into the trees. And this time I ball into the trees. And this time I ball into the trees. And this time I decided, we're going to have to go and decided, we're going to have to go and decided, we're going to have to go and find it. Or at least I'm going to have find it. Or at least I'm going to have find it. Or at least I'm going to have to go find some golf balls in the woods to go find some golf balls in the woods to go find some golf balls in the woods here. So I was traing through the bush here. So I was traing through the bush here. So I was traing through the bush trying to find this guy's golf ball. And trying to find this guy's golf ball. And trying to find this guy's golf ball. And I ducked to go under a tree branch. And I ducked to go under a tree branch. And I ducked to go under a tree branch. And I didn't duck far enough.

I didn't duck far enough. I didn't duck far enough. >> Oh. And it got you. >> Oh. And it got you. >> Oh. And it got you. >> And a tree branch got me in the head. >> And a tree branch got me in the head. >> And a tree branch got me in the head. Now it actually work. It looks worse Now it actually work. It looks worse Now it actually work. It looks worse than it actually is. It didn't actually than it actually is. It didn't actually than it actually is. It didn't actually the I had a hat on and really what the I had a hat on and really what the I had a hat on and really what happened was the tree branch caught the happened was the tree branch caught the happened was the tree branch caught the hat and it kind of pulled my hat back hat and it kind of pulled my hat back hat and it kind of pulled my hat back and you know how when you have an and you know how when you have an and you know how when you have an embroidered uh logo or emblem on the embroidered uh logo or emblem on the embroidered uh logo or emblem on the front of the hat, you always have like a front of the hat, you always have like a front of the hat, you always have like a little patch on the inside. It's like little patch on the inside. It's like little patch on the inside. It's like the patch on the inside of the hat the patch on the inside of the hat the patch on the inside of the hat >> scraped the top of my bulb head. So >> scraped the top of my bulb head. So >> scraped the top of my bulb head. So anyway, it looks worse than it is. But anyway, it looks worse than it is. But anyway, it looks worse than it is. But you know, anyway, if you're if you're you know, anyway, if you're if you're you know, anyway, if you're if you're listening to this podcast on Spotify, listening to this podcast on Spotify, listening to this podcast on Spotify, you have no idea what it looks like. If you have no idea what it looks like. If you have no idea what it looks like. If you're watching on our YouTube channel, you're watching on our YouTube channel, you're watching on our YouTube channel, uh please avert your eyes because it uh please avert your eyes because it uh please avert your eyes because it looks kind of gross. I don't want you to looks kind of gross. I don't want you to looks kind of gross. I don't want you to to be grossed out. Anyway, I just want to be grossed out. Anyway, I just want to be grossed out. Anyway, I just want to get get the elephant in the room to get get the elephant in the room to get get the elephant in the room called out, um, it's a golfing injury. I called out, um, it's a golfing injury. I called out, um, it's a golfing injury. I came home, my wife's like, "What came home, my wife's like, "What came home, my wife's like, "What happened?" I said, "I got hit in the happened?" I said, "I got hit in the happened?" I said, "I got hit in the head with a golf ball." She's like, head with a golf ball." She's like, head with a golf ball." She's like, "Really?" I said, "No, a tree. A tree." "Really?" I said, "No, a tree. A tree." "Really?" I said, "No, a tree. A tree." And we both, the tree is still standing And we both, the tree is still standing And we both, the tree is still standing and I am still standing, so we'll call and I am still standing, so we'll call and I am still standing, so we'll call it a draw. No one no one won or lost it a draw. No one no one won or lost it a draw. No one no one won or lost that battle. But anyway, okay. All that battle. But anyway, okay. All that battle. But anyway, okay. All right. That's enough for the uh right. That's enough for the uh right. That's enough for the uh senseless banter at the top of this senseless banter at the top of this senseless banter at the top of this podcast episode. We have a really, podcast episode. We have a really, podcast episode. We have a really, >> I think, different conversation.

>> I think, different conversation. >> I think, different conversation. something we haven't really discussed something we haven't really discussed something we haven't really discussed much on this podcast in the six years much on this podcast in the six years much on this podcast in the six years we've been doing this. Um, and that is we've been doing this. Um, and that is we've been doing this. Um, and that is we're going to have a discussion today we're going to have a discussion today we're going to have a discussion today about when and how churches need to about when and how churches need to about when and how churches need to prioritize the communications work that prioritize the communications work that prioritize the communications work that they're doing, whether they're using they're doing, whether they're using they're doing, whether they're using volunteers or using vendors. When does volunteers or using vendors. When does volunteers or using vendors. When does it make sense for you as a it make sense for you as a it make sense for you as a communications leader? Like listen, we communications leader? Like listen, we communications leader? Like listen, we know a lot of the churches that we work know a lot of the churches that we work know a lot of the churches that we work with, you're like a oneerson shop. be with, you're like a oneerson shop. be with, you're like a oneerson shop. be like one person or maybe you've got you like one person or maybe you've got you like one person or maybe you've got you and one part-time person. Like this is and one part-time person. Like this is and one part-time person. Like this is very common. very common. very common. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> we've talked a lot about raising up >> we've talked a lot about raising up >> we've talked a lot about raising up volunteers to help in the communications volunteers to help in the communications volunteers to help in the communications department when you don't have a full department when you don't have a full department when you don't have a full staff, staff, staff, >> but how do you balance that with when >> but how do you balance that with when >> but how do you balance that with when you can actually look outside and hire a you can actually look outside and hire a you can actually look outside and hire a vendor? Sometimes it makes sense to vendor? Sometimes it makes sense to vendor? Sometimes it makes sense to empower volunteers to get involved in empower volunteers to get involved in empower volunteers to get involved in the ministry. Sometimes for the sake of the ministry. Sometimes for the sake of the ministry. Sometimes for the sake of of of simplicity or expediency, it might of of simplicity or expediency, it might of of simplicity or expediency, it might make sense to look outside and um and make sense to look outside and um and make sense to look outside and um and and hire an outside source as a and hire an outside source as a and hire an outside source as a fractional fractional staff or you know fractional fractional staff or you know fractional fractional staff or you know a specific service that you need to a specific service that you need to a specific service that you need to outsource. So with that being sort of outsource. So with that being sort of outsource. So with that being sort of the topic of the conversation today, the topic of the conversation today, the topic of the conversation today, Jason, if you were sitting in a role Jason, if you were sitting in a role Jason, if you were sitting in a role where you like you're a oneperson where you like you're a oneperson where you like you're a oneperson >> shop, maybe you're the lead pastor, you >> shop, maybe you're the lead pastor, you >> shop, maybe you're the lead pastor, you don't have a communications team or don't have a communications team or don't have a communications team or maybe you're a a oneperson maybe you're a a oneperson maybe you're a a oneperson communications department. How do you communications department. How do you communications department. How do you start to prioritize the work that you're start to prioritize the work that you're start to prioritize the work that you're doing and start asking the question, how doing and start asking the question, how doing and start asking the question, how much of this could be done but by much of this could be done but by much of this could be done but by volunteers and what might I need to

volunteers and what might I need to volunteers and what might I need to outsource? How would you prioritize the outsource? How would you prioritize the outsource? How would you prioritize the work there? work there? work there? >> Yeah. Well, I I actually think it does. >> Yeah. Well, I I actually think it does. >> Yeah. Well, I I actually think it does. You might be one person, you might have You might be one person, you might have You might be one person, you might have four people. It's still a relevant four people. It's still a relevant four people. It's still a relevant question. And and when I was a comm question. And and when I was a comm question. And and when I was a comm director of my my church, which was a director of my my church, which was a director of my my church, which was a mega church, uh we were always being mega church, uh we were always being mega church, uh we were always being challenged by our leadership. Use challenged by our leadership. Use challenged by our leadership. Use volunteers, get volunteers engaged. It's volunteers, get volunteers engaged. It's volunteers, get volunteers engaged. It's a lot easier on the ministry side to get a lot easier on the ministry side to get a lot easier on the ministry side to get volunteers. So should kids ministry. You volunteers. So should kids ministry. You volunteers. So should kids ministry. You need volunteers. But in the need volunteers. But in the need volunteers. But in the communications or the operation side, it communications or the operation side, it communications or the operation side, it gets a little bit more challenging. Uh gets a little bit more challenging. Uh gets a little bit more challenging. Uh mainly because there's a level of mainly because there's a level of mainly because there's a level of excellence that we want to have in excellence that we want to have in excellence that we want to have in everything we do. And sometimes those everything we do. And sometimes those everything we do. And sometimes those people exist in our church and other people exist in our church and other people exist in our church and other times they don't. And the ones that that times they don't. And the ones that that times they don't. And the ones that that don't have that gifting, but they have don't have that gifting, but they have don't have that gifting, but they have the gift of they want to serve, we have the gift of they want to serve, we have the gift of they want to serve, we have to ask ourselves the question, do we to ask ourselves the question, do we to ask ourselves the question, do we engage that person and lower our engage that person and lower our engage that person and lower our standards or lower our expectations standards or lower our expectations standards or lower our expectations because we want to hand it off in a good because we want to hand it off in a good because we want to hand it off in a good way to a servant leader? And so those way to a servant leader? And so those way to a servant leader? And so those are those are things I had to wrestle are those are things I had to wrestle are those are things I had to wrestle with because there were some things I with because there were some things I with because there were some things I was not going to give up. I wasn't going was not going to give up. I wasn't going was not going to give up. I wasn't going to have somebody back in the day, we to have somebody back in the day, we to have somebody back in the day, we used to do bulletins and our lead pastor used to do bulletins and our lead pastor used to do bulletins and our lead pastor had an outline and all that kind of had an outline and all that kind of had an outline and all that kind of stuff. I wasn't going to ask a halfway stuff. I wasn't going to ask a halfway stuff. I wasn't going to ask a halfway decent proofreader to proofread that decent proofreader to proofread that decent proofreader to proofread that >> because I had a zero error expectation >> because I had a zero error expectation >> because I had a zero error expectation thrusted upon me. We will not have typos thrusted upon me. We will not have typos thrusted upon me. We will not have typos in this thing. So that had to require me in this thing. So that had to require me in this thing. So that had to require me finding the expert finding the expert finding the expert >> and um I was fortunate to have a couple

>> and um I was fortunate to have a couple >> and um I was fortunate to have a couple of those people who were week in and of those people who were week in and of those people who were week in and week out would do that for us. And so, week out would do that for us. And so, week out would do that for us. And so, but then I I had others that they were I but then I I had others that they were I but then I I had others that they were I love them, but they just they didn't love them, but they just they didn't love them, but they just they didn't have the giftedness of web development have the giftedness of web development have the giftedness of web development or social media, but they wanted to. So, or social media, but they wanted to. So, or social media, but they wanted to. So, I had to realize, okay, what do I need I had to realize, okay, what do I need I had to realize, okay, what do I need to outsource? Um or or hire somebody to outsource? Um or or hire somebody to outsource? Um or or hire somebody because sometimes we just want to throw because sometimes we just want to throw because sometimes we just want to throw money at say, well, I'm going to hire money at say, well, I'm going to hire money at say, well, I'm going to hire the next person. Well, I just dealt with the next person. Well, I just dealt with the next person. Well, I just dealt with that with a church. She's going to hire that with a church. She's going to hire that with a church. She's going to hire somebody in the hopes that this person somebody in the hopes that this person somebody in the hopes that this person can run advertising and do web and and can run advertising and do web and and can run advertising and do web and and all these kinds of things. And I think, all these kinds of things. And I think, all these kinds of things. And I think, well, that's that's a good approach to well, that's that's a good approach to well, that's that's a good approach to it, but there are no unicorns. So, be it, but there are no unicorns. So, be it, but there are no unicorns. So, be careful who you hire, be careful of the careful who you hire, be careful of the careful who you hire, be careful of the vendor you choose, and be careful the vendor you choose, and be careful the vendor you choose, and be careful the volunteer that you're going to lean on. volunteer that you're going to lean on. volunteer that you're going to lean on. And so, I I think you're I think this is And so, I I think you're I think this is And so, I I think you're I think this is such a good topic because I think we all such a good topic because I think we all such a good topic because I think we all of us, depending on, it doesn't matter of us, depending on, it doesn't matter of us, depending on, it doesn't matter size of church. You could be a small size of church. You could be a small size of church. You could be a small church or a mega church. You could have church or a mega church. You could have church or a mega church. You could have no money or a ton of money. You could no money or a ton of money. You could no money or a ton of money. You could have one staff person or six staff have one staff person or six staff have one staff person or six staff people. You have to approach this to be people. You have to approach this to be people. You have to approach this to be a good steward. And that's a key to all a good steward. And that's a key to all a good steward. And that's a key to all this. You've got to be a good steward of this. You've got to be a good steward of this. You've got to be a good steward of the resources that people through the the resources that people through the the resources that people through the Lord have given to your church. And and Lord have given to your church. And and Lord have given to your church. And and that might be people and it might be that might be people and it might be that might be people and it might be money. So regardless, you got to be a money. So regardless, you got to be a money. So regardless, you got to be a good steward. And I think, you know, um good steward. And I think, you know, um good steward. And I think, you know, um we put together this sort of this this we put together this sort of this this we put together this sort of this this just strategy of okay, what kind of just strategy of okay, what kind of just strategy of okay, what kind of things do you go through? What kind of things do you go through? What kind of things do you go through? What kind of things do you ask? And so, yeah, I I'm I things do you ask? And so, yeah, I I'm I things do you ask? And so, yeah, I I'm I love this topic because it's one that we love this topic because it's one that we love this topic because it's one that we struggle with in the on the operation

struggle with in the on the operation struggle with in the on the operation side because we we think, well, we'll side because we we think, well, we'll side because we we think, well, we'll just go hire that out. Well, that that just go hire that out. Well, that that just go hire that out. Well, that that isn't always the best situation. I mean, isn't always the best situation. I mean, isn't always the best situation. I mean, you and I both know churches that hired you and I both know churches that hired you and I both know churches that hired a talented young person and within a a talented young person and within a a talented young person and within a couple years they went and chased more couple years they went and chased more couple years they went and chased more money. Well, you can't fault them for money. Well, you can't fault them for money. Well, you can't fault them for that. I mean, they're wanting to move up that. I mean, they're wanting to move up that. I mean, they're wanting to move up and improve their status with their and improve their status with their and improve their status with their income and they got a family and all income and they got a family and all income and they got a family and all that kind of stuff, but that happens all that kind of stuff, but that happens all that kind of stuff, but that happens all the time in our space. So, we we you and the time in our space. So, we we you and the time in our space. So, we we you and I talk with churches all the time and I talk with churches all the time and I talk with churches all the time and it's a revolving door of of comm's it's a revolving door of of comm's it's a revolving door of of comm's departments. And so, yeah, I think that, departments. And so, yeah, I think that, departments. And so, yeah, I think that, you know, you listed out here, which is you know, you listed out here, which is you know, you listed out here, which is I'm really excited to go through. I'm really excited to go through. I'm really excited to go through. There's there's six different um There's there's six different um There's there's six different um strategies or steps to walk through when strategies or steps to walk through when strategies or steps to walk through when it comes to deciding do you use a it comes to deciding do you use a it comes to deciding do you use a volunteer or a vendor. volunteer or a vendor. volunteer or a vendor. >> Yeah. So the the the first one on here >> Yeah. So the the the first one on here >> Yeah. So the the the first one on here I'll I'll kind of set the table for it I'll I'll kind of set the table for it I'll I'll kind of set the table for it and you can kind of deep dive into it is and you can kind of deep dive into it is and you can kind of deep dive into it is is really just start with paint a very is really just start with paint a very is really just start with paint a very complete picture of everything that you complete picture of everything that you complete picture of everything that you want and need accomplished from a want and need accomplished from a want and need accomplished from a communication standpoint. So, I'd start communication standpoint. So, I'd start communication standpoint. So, I'd start by a take out a Google sheet by a take out a Google sheet by a take out a Google sheet >> and make a list of all the stuff that >> and make a list of all the stuff that >> and make a list of all the stuff that has to happen every week, every month, has to happen every week, every month, has to happen every week, every month, every year from an internal every year from an internal every year from an internal communications standpoint and then make communications standpoint and then make communications standpoint and then make a list of all the things that want you a list of all the things that want you a list of all the things that want you want and need to get done from an want and need to get done from an want and need to get done from an external communications standpoint. You external communications standpoint. You external communications standpoint. You know, so internal is your your ring one know, so internal is your your ring one know, so internal is your your ring one people who are already connected to your people who are already connected to your people who are already connected to your church. The external is you trying to church. The external is you trying to church. The external is you trying to connect with ring two and ring three connect with ring two and ring three connect with ring two and ring three people which are people who are in your people which are people who are in your people which are people who are in your community who are looking for a church community who are looking for a church community who are looking for a church or looking for some sort of help. I

or looking for some sort of help. I or looking for some sort of help. I would also include all the stuff that would also include all the stuff that would also include all the stuff that you know you ought to be doing that you know you ought to be doing that you know you ought to be doing that you're not yet doing. Like this is a you're not yet doing. Like this is a you're not yet doing. Like this is a regular conversation that you and I have regular conversation that you and I have regular conversation that you and I have with churches all the time is we'll have with churches all the time is we'll have with churches all the time is we'll have a meeting with one of our churches and a meeting with one of our churches and a meeting with one of our churches and we'll say, you know, here's two or three we'll say, you know, here's two or three we'll say, you know, here's two or three things that you really need to be doing things that you really need to be doing things that you really need to be doing from a social media standpoint or from from a social media standpoint or from from a social media standpoint or from an SEO standpoint or from a digital an SEO standpoint or from a digital an SEO standpoint or from a digital marketing standpoint. And then the marketing standpoint. And then the marketing standpoint. And then the person looks at us and goes, "Well, person looks at us and goes, "Well, person looks at us and goes, "Well, that's great. I just don't have the that's great. I just don't have the that's great. I just don't have the bandwidth to take that on." But that bandwidth to take that on." But that bandwidth to take that on." But that doesn't mean you don't put it on the doesn't mean you don't put it on the doesn't mean you don't put it on the list. Put it on the list. Yeah. list. Put it on the list. Yeah. list. Put it on the list. Yeah. >> And then once you put all that stuff on >> And then once you put all that stuff on >> And then once you put all that stuff on the list, all the stuff you're doing, the list, all the stuff you're doing, the list, all the stuff you're doing, all the stuff you know you need to be all the stuff you know you need to be all the stuff you know you need to be doing, then you can start to prioritize doing, then you can start to prioritize doing, then you can start to prioritize it in a way that how allows you to say, it in a way that how allows you to say, it in a way that how allows you to say, "Hey, this is the beginning point of "Hey, this is the beginning point of "Hey, this is the beginning point of what do I need to do? What do I need to what do I need to do? What do I need to what do I need to do? What do I need to find another person or another source uh find another person or another source uh find another person or another source uh to take that on? H how what what what to take that on? H how what what what to take that on? H how what what what comments or thoughts you have on that comments or thoughts you have on that comments or thoughts you have on that >> Jason? I I do this with especially new >> Jason? I I do this with especially new >> Jason? I I do this with especially new comm directors. Now that doesn't mean comm directors. Now that doesn't mean comm directors. Now that doesn't mean you're 23 or 24 years old out of you're 23 or 24 years old out of you're 23 or 24 years old out of college. You could be you could be a college. You could be you could be a college. You could be you could be a 40-year-old. You just you're new to the 40-year-old. You just you're new to the 40-year-old. You just you're new to the position.

position. position. >> What I encourage um everybody to do, >> What I encourage um everybody to do, >> What I encourage um everybody to do, especially the new ones, is to actually especially the new ones, is to actually especially the new ones, is to actually map out the next five years. What does map out the next five years. What does map out the next five years. What does the what do you want your department to the what do you want your department to the what do you want your department to look like in five years from now? So you look like in five years from now? So you look like in five years from now? So you you you have what you got now, which you you have what you got now, which you you have what you got now, which again, like you said earlier, Bart, you again, like you said earlier, Bart, you again, like you said earlier, Bart, you might just be a oneperson shop. You might just be a oneperson shop. You might just be a oneperson shop. You might have an extra person. You might might have an extra person. You might might have an extra person. You might have some vendors that you work with. have some vendors that you work with. have some vendors that you work with. Great. What does it look like today? And Great. What does it look like today? And Great. What does it look like today? And then what does it look like five years then what does it look like five years then what does it look like five years from now? The way I tell them to do that from now? The way I tell them to do that from now? The way I tell them to do that is I go, you got to lead up. You got to is I go, you got to lead up. You got to is I go, you got to lead up. You got to lead up. And I've I've I've said that lead up. And I've I've I've said that lead up. And I've I've I've said that because I started with in order for you because I started with in order for you because I started with in order for you to to to oh I don't want to go too off the trail oh I don't want to go too off the trail oh I don't want to go too off the trail here, but in order for you to really here, but in order for you to really here, but in order for you to really make a massive impact in your community, make a massive impact in your community, make a massive impact in your community, the the people in your city and invite the the people in your city and invite the the people in your city and invite them to church and and let them know you them to church and and let them know you them to church and and let them know you exist as a church, you need one of two exist as a church, you need one of two exist as a church, you need one of two things. You need passionate people who things. You need passionate people who things. You need passionate people who are going to go and bring their friends are going to go and bring their friends are going to go and bring their friends to church. That's plan A, right? And we to church. That's plan A, right? And we to church. That's plan A, right? And we we know this word of mouth, invite my we know this word of mouth, invite my we know this word of mouth, invite my neighbors, invite my co-workers. That's neighbors, invite my co-workers. That's neighbors, invite my co-workers. That's that's plan A. That goes back to the that's plan A. That goes back to the that's plan A. That goes back to the first century Christians, right? But to first century Christians, right? But to first century Christians, right? But to supplement that, you need money. You supplement that, you need money. You supplement that, you need money. You need advertising dollars. And you're a need advertising dollars. And you're a need advertising dollars. And you're a small business. And it kind of floores small business. And it kind of floores small business. And it kind of floores people when I say you really should be people when I say you really should be people when I say you really should be allocating 3 to 5% of your overall allocating 3 to 5% of your overall allocating 3 to 5% of your overall giving towards digital outreach. And giving towards digital outreach. And giving towards digital outreach. And they're going, "Wait, uh, they're doing they're going, "Wait, uh, they're doing they're going, "Wait, uh, they're doing the math on how much how much giving the math on how much how much giving the math on how much how much giving they get in a given year." And they're

they get in a given year." And they're they get in a given year." And they're doing the math and I'm going, "They're doing the math and I'm going, "They're doing the math and I'm going, "They're going, well, there's I'm a fraction of going, well, there's I'm a fraction of going, well, there's I'm a fraction of that." I go, "Exactly." Because you that." I go, "Exactly." Because you that." I go, "Exactly." Because you haven't painted a picture to your haven't painted a picture to your haven't painted a picture to your leadership of here's where I want to be leadership of here's where I want to be leadership of here's where I want to be five years from now, not only in five years from now, not only in five years from now, not only in staffing, but also in budget because I staffing, but also in budget because I staffing, but also in budget because I can see the the ROI could be I could can see the the ROI could be I could can see the the ROI could be I could paint that out. How many people we can paint that out. How many people we can paint that out. How many people we can reach and how many more people get into reach and how many more people get into reach and how many more people get into our church and how many people we can our church and how many people we can our church and how many people we can save and baptize and you all that kind save and baptize and you all that kind save and baptize and you all that kind of stuff. So I always say paint that of stuff. So I always say paint that of stuff. So I always say paint that picture. It is what it is today. What do picture. It is what it is today. What do picture. It is what it is today. What do you want to be five five years from now? you want to be five five years from now? you want to be five five years from now? And and what are you doing to to reach And and what are you doing to to reach And and what are you doing to to reach that those goals? You know, you're not that those goals? You know, you're not that those goals? You know, you're not just going to leap there. You're going just going to leap there. You're going just going to leap there. You're going to have to build it. It took me when I to have to build it. It took me when I to have to build it. It took me when I started. It was just me and I had kind started. It was just me and I had kind started. It was just me and I had kind of a a sort of a part-time person who of a a sort of a part-time person who of a a sort of a part-time person who spent a little time with me, another spent a little time with me, another spent a little time with me, another part another part-time person, and it part another part-time person, and it part another part-time person, and it was just this we're talking a big was just this we're talking a big was just this we're talking a big honking church. And over time, I was honking church. And over time, I was honking church. And over time, I was able to add more salaries because I was able to add more salaries because I was able to add more salaries because I was able to to pres present why I needed able to to pres present why I needed able to to pres present why I needed this this person. And I and I slowly got this this person. And I and I slowly got this this person. And I and I slowly got there and I was there for a long time.

there and I was there for a long time. there and I was there for a long time. Um, and it was it was an uphill battle, Um, and it was it was an uphill battle, Um, and it was it was an uphill battle, but it was worth it because we moved the but it was worth it because we moved the but it was worth it because we moved the needle a lot in those years and we were needle a lot in those years and we were needle a lot in those years and we were growing like crazy. So, yeah, I like growing like crazy. So, yeah, I like growing like crazy. So, yeah, I like your idea of start with the complete your idea of start with the complete your idea of start with the complete picture. List everything. picture. List everything. picture. List everything. >> Yeah. List list everything and then >> Yeah. List list everything and then >> Yeah. List list everything and then ruthlessly prioritize it. You know, ruthlessly prioritize it. You know, ruthlessly prioritize it. You know, there are some things that because there are some things that because there are some things that because Sunday is coming, it has to get done Sunday is coming, it has to get done Sunday is coming, it has to get done every single week. Yes. every single week. Yes. every single week. Yes. >> And then there are those other things >> And then there are those other things >> And then there are those other things that are kind of like nice to have but that are kind of like nice to have but that are kind of like nice to have but not necessarily need to have. If I could not necessarily need to have. If I could not necessarily need to have. If I could do more of this, I would do more of do more of this, I would do more of do more of this, I would do more of this. But you and we all know what you this. But you and we all know what you this. But you and we all know what you know some of those things are when you know some of those things are when you know some of those things are when you look at your own list of priorities. And look at your own list of priorities. And look at your own list of priorities. And then you know the the the the next phase then you know the the the the next phase then you know the the the the next phase that I would kind of go through is that I would kind of go through is that I would kind of go through is >> the personal self- assessment, >> the personal self- assessment, >> the personal self- assessment, especially if you're a oneperson especially if you're a oneperson especially if you're a oneperson department. What can you actually do department. What can you actually do department. What can you actually do really well? What's your skill set? Many really well? What's your skill set? Many really well? What's your skill set? Many times when I'm on a call with a comm's times when I'm on a call with a comm's times when I'm on a call with a comm's director, especially if they're new in director, especially if they're new in director, especially if they're new in their role, one of the first questions their role, one of the first questions their role, one of the first questions that I ask them are, you know, what are that I ask them are, you know, what are that I ask them are, you know, what are the top three or four or five unique the top three or four or five unique the top three or four or five unique giftings that you have that make you the giftings that you have that make you the giftings that you have that make you the proper person to be in this chair? And proper person to be in this chair? And proper person to be in this chair? And that question often catches them off that question often catches them off that question often catches them off guard, but a lot of times it's well, guard, but a lot of times it's well, guard, but a lot of times it's well, it's their creativity level or sometimes it's their creativity level or sometimes it's their creativity level or sometimes it's because of their ability to plan it's because of their ability to plan it's because of their ability to plan and organize. sometimes it's their own and organize. sometimes it's their own and organize. sometimes it's their own communication skills. Um, just because communication skills. Um, just because communication skills. Um, just because you can do it doesn't mean that you you can do it doesn't mean that you you can do it doesn't mean that you should be the one doing this. This is should be the one doing this. This is should be the one doing this. This is those of us who are in leadership in any those of us who are in leadership in any those of us who are in leadership in any organization and you and I probably fall organization and you and I probably fall organization and you and I probably fall victim of this a lot. There are a lot of victim of this a lot. There are a lot of victim of this a lot. There are a lot of things that we can do, but it doesn't things that we can do, but it doesn't things that we can do, but it doesn't mean because we can do it that we should

mean because we can do it that we should mean because we can do it that we should be doing it. We have other people on our be doing it. We have other people on our be doing it. We have other people on our team. We need to empower others or get team. We need to empower others or get team. We need to empower others or get others involved. Uh, sometimes those others involved. Uh, sometimes those others involved. Uh, sometimes those things that we're good at are less things that we're good at are less things that we're good at are less critical than others. Uh, so it might be critical than others. Uh, so it might be critical than others. Uh, so it might be easy to get some easier to get someone easy to get some easier to get someone easy to get some easier to get someone else to do it. Um, one of the things you else to do it. Um, one of the things you else to do it. Um, one of the things you and I are are are really big into um the and I are are are really big into um the and I are are are really big into um the six types of working genius from Patrick six types of working genius from Patrick six types of working genius from Patrick Lencion. One of the things that you need Lencion. One of the things that you need Lencion. One of the things that you need to ask yourself is what are the things to ask yourself is what are the things to ask yourself is what are the things that actually energize you in your role that actually energize you in your role that actually energize you in your role versus the things that drain you? And so versus the things that drain you? And so versus the things that drain you? And so if you know you're working genius, if if if you know you're working genius, if if if you know you're working genius, if if if you're wired like Jason Hamrock, if you're wired like Jason Hamrock, if you're wired like Jason Hamrock, you're all wonder and invention. And uh you're all wonder and invention. And uh you're all wonder and invention. And uh you know Jason doesn't love to live in you know Jason doesn't love to live in you know Jason doesn't love to live in spreadsheets and and and the the the spreadsheets and and and the the the spreadsheets and and and the the the minutia and the details of things. He minutia and the details of things. He minutia and the details of things. He loves the wonder and invention, the loves the wonder and invention, the loves the wonder and invention, the ideation, the creativity side of things. ideation, the creativity side of things. ideation, the creativity side of things. Um and it's better for Jason to have Um and it's better for Jason to have Um and it's better for Jason to have someone on his team that can actually someone on his team that can actually someone on his team that can actually manage the minutia. Or maybe you're a manage the minutia. Or maybe you're a manage the minutia. Or maybe you're a person who loves the minutia. You love person who loves the minutia. You love person who loves the minutia. You love checking the boxes. You love organizing checking the boxes. You love organizing checking the boxes. You love organizing the asauna or the Monday platform so the asauna or the Monday platform so the asauna or the Monday platform so that everything looks good and everybody that everything looks good and everybody that everything looks good and everybody knows what they're supposed to be doing.

knows what they're supposed to be doing. knows what they're supposed to be doing. but you're not as strong on the front but you're not as strong on the front but you're not as strong on the front end, the creative side of things. As you end, the creative side of things. As you end, the creative side of things. As you begin to prioritize the things that you begin to prioritize the things that you begin to prioritize the things that you want done and the things that you need want done and the things that you need want done and the things that you need to get done, I would look at your own to get done, I would look at your own to get done, I would look at your own skill set and go, "Hey, what am I great skill set and go, "Hey, what am I great skill set and go, "Hey, what am I great at and what gives me the most energy?" at and what gives me the most energy?" at and what gives me the most energy?" And that's really if especially if And that's really if especially if And that's really if especially if you're looking at either empowering you're looking at either empowering you're looking at either empowering volunteers or outsourcing some of that volunteers or outsourcing some of that volunteers or outsourcing some of that work, take on the things that you know work, take on the things that you know work, take on the things that you know you're going to be most gifted at and you're going to be most gifted at and you're going to be most gifted at and the things that are going to give you the things that are going to give you the things that are going to give you the most energy. the most energy. the most energy. >> Yeah. So, let me let me let me add a >> Yeah. So, let me let me let me add a >> Yeah. So, let me let me let me add a little extra nugget of gold to that. little extra nugget of gold to that. little extra nugget of gold to that. Okay, Okay, Okay, you were chosen. you were chosen. you were chosen. You were chosen. You were sitting in the You were chosen. You were sitting in the You were chosen. You were sitting in the seat because somebody on your staff on seat because somebody on your staff on seat because somebody on your staff on the staff of the church decided to go the staff of the church decided to go the staff of the church decided to go with you. They chose you. with you. They chose you. with you. They chose you. Congratulations. Congratulations. Congratulations. Right. You might have been a com Right. You might have been a com Right. You might have been a com director for 20 years or two months. director for 20 years or two months. director for 20 years or two months. Regardless, you're it. What I'm always Regardless, you're it. What I'm always Regardless, you're it. What I'm always encouraging encouraging encouraging uh our people to do, and I say our uh our people to do, and I say our uh our people to do, and I say our people, our comm's people to do, is what people, our comm's people to do, is what people, our comm's people to do, is what you just said, Barb, was perfect. you just said, Barb, was perfect. you just said, Barb, was perfect. Understand your strengths and your Understand your strengths and your Understand your strengths and your weaknesses and go have a conversation.

weaknesses and go have a conversation. weaknesses and go have a conversation. Go have a conversation with your lead Go have a conversation with your lead Go have a conversation with your lead pastor asking your lead pastor, pastor asking your lead pastor, pastor asking your lead pastor, "What matters? "What matters? "What matters? What What are your expectations of me in What What are your expectations of me in What What are your expectations of me in in this team, this department? what kind in this team, this department? what kind in this team, this department? what kind of goals of goals of goals do I need to realign with to make sure do I need to realign with to make sure do I need to realign with to make sure I'm helping to achieve your vision and I'm helping to achieve your vision and I'm helping to achieve your vision and your goals for our church? Um, and maybe your goals for our church? Um, and maybe your goals for our church? Um, and maybe that starts with your executive pastor, that starts with your executive pastor, that starts with your executive pastor, but I would absolutely have that with but I would absolutely have that with but I would absolutely have that with your lead pastor because you want to be your lead pastor because you want to be your lead pastor because you want to be in sync with what leadership is saying, in sync with what leadership is saying, in sync with what leadership is saying, this is a priority for us. And and and this is a priority for us. And and and this is a priority for us. And and and why you want to do that is you're going, why you want to do that is you're going, why you want to do that is you're going, "Oh, okay. Now that I understand that, I "Oh, okay. Now that I understand that, I "Oh, okay. Now that I understand that, I need to be able to realign my strengths need to be able to realign my strengths need to be able to realign my strengths around that goal. I also need to around that goal. I also need to around that goal. I also need to understand these are my weaknesses and understand these are my weaknesses and understand these are my weaknesses and if I do these things, I'm going to burn if I do these things, I'm going to burn if I do these things, I'm going to burn out and I need help with this. And a out and I need help with this. And a out and I need help with this. And a good solid leader will understand that good solid leader will understand that good solid leader will understand that and go, "All right, thank you for being and go, "All right, thank you for being and go, "All right, thank you for being honest and bringing that to our honest and bringing that to our honest and bringing that to our attention. Let's solve that problem." attention. Let's solve that problem." attention. Let's solve that problem." Well, the only way you do that, guys, is Well, the only way you do that, guys, is Well, the only way you do that, guys, is if you have the conversation. I talked if you have the conversation. I talked if you have the conversation. I talked to too many ex uh comm directors where to too many ex uh comm directors where to too many ex uh comm directors where they hardly ever meet. They they sit in they hardly ever meet. They they sit in they hardly ever meet. They they sit in a a weekly meeting with maybe the a a weekly meeting with maybe the a a weekly meeting with maybe the leadership team. I hope you're at least leadership team. I hope you're at least leadership team. I hope you're at least part of that, right? uh listening, but part of that, right? uh listening, but part of that, right? uh listening, but you're not having those regular regular you're not having those regular regular you're not having those regular regular is defined. They could be quarterly or is defined. They could be quarterly or is defined. They could be quarterly or something like that, but having those something like that, but having those something like that, but having those regular meetings with your leadership, regular meetings with your leadership, regular meetings with your leadership, with your lead pastor about what the with your lead pastor about what the with your lead pastor about what the prioritization looks like because it's prioritization looks like because it's prioritization looks like because it's got to it's got to you if you're not

got to it's got to you if you're not got to it's got to you if you're not aligned with that, you're r you're going aligned with that, you're r you're going aligned with that, you're r you're going up upstream and and you don't want to be up upstream and and you don't want to be up upstream and and you don't want to be doing that. You don't want to be doing that. You don't want to be doing that. You don't want to be fighting that. So, um, that's free fighting that. So, um, that's free fighting that. So, um, that's free coaching right there. And, and, uh, if coaching right there. And, and, uh, if coaching right there. And, and, uh, if you know, if you want to learn more you know, if you want to learn more you know, if you want to learn more about that, I mean, you got two people, about that, I mean, you got two people, about that, I mean, you got two people, myself and Bart, we've got years of myself and Bart, we've got years of myself and Bart, we've got years of experience talking to literally experience talking to literally experience talking to literally thousands of churches combined over the thousands of churches combined over the thousands of churches combined over the last decade giving this kind of advice. last decade giving this kind of advice. last decade giving this kind of advice. So, um, if you want to have a deeper So, um, if you want to have a deeper So, um, if you want to have a deeper conversation about that, just reach out conversation about that, just reach out conversation about that, just reach out because that it matters. It really, because that it matters. It really, because that it matters. It really, really matters. And there's more to it really matters. And there's more to it really matters. And there's more to it than just what I just shared with you. than just what I just shared with you. than just what I just shared with you. But, But, But, >> yeah. Okay. So, we've gone through this >> yeah. Okay. So, we've gone through this >> yeah. Okay. So, we've gone through this process. Let's let's assume fast fast process. Let's let's assume fast fast process. Let's let's assume fast fast forward a couple of weeks, right? I've forward a couple of weeks, right? I've forward a couple of weeks, right? I've spent all this time. I put together my spent all this time. I put together my spent all this time. I put together my Google sheet. I've got my my internal Google sheet. I've got my my internal Google sheet. I've got my my internal communication list. I've got my external communication list. I've got my external communication list. I've got my external communication list. I've prioritized communication list. I've prioritized communication list. I've prioritized those things in order of of critical, those things in order of of critical, those things in order of of critical, missionritical, the things that are most missionritical, the things that are most missionritical, the things that are most important to moving the the needle in important to moving the the needle in important to moving the the needle in our our ministry. Um, I've evaluated our our ministry. Um, I've evaluated our our ministry. Um, I've evaluated which things I'm most gifted at, things which things I'm most gifted at, things which things I'm most gifted at, things I'm most passionate about, the things I'm most passionate about, the things I'm most passionate about, the things that give me the most energy. I've that give me the most energy. I've that give me the most energy. I've gotten sort of a a green light from my gotten sort of a a green light from my gotten sort of a a green light from my leadership team to say, "Yeah, this is leadership team to say, "Yeah, this is leadership team to say, "Yeah, this is how we want to prioritize your time."

how we want to prioritize your time." how we want to prioritize your time." Now, when we start looking at all the Now, when we start looking at all the Now, when we start looking at all the stuff that's left over that I know I stuff that's left over that I know I stuff that's left over that I know I can't do, I have two choices, Jason. I can't do, I have two choices, Jason. I can't do, I have two choices, Jason. I can either go look for volunteers in the can either go look for volunteers in the can either go look for volunteers in the seats that might be able to come and seats that might be able to come and seats that might be able to come and help me out, or I can go and I can look help me out, or I can go and I can look help me out, or I can go and I can look for a vendor, some sort of company or for a vendor, some sort of company or for a vendor, some sort of company or agency that can help me out in the area agency that can help me out in the area agency that can help me out in the area that I need help in. How do I decide that I need help in. How do I decide that I need help in. How do I decide which of these things I should empower which of these things I should empower which of these things I should empower volunteers to do? How do I decide which volunteers to do? How do I decide which volunteers to do? How do I decide which ones I need to outsource to another ones I need to outsource to another ones I need to outsource to another agency or a vendor too? agency or a vendor too? agency or a vendor too? >> Man, that's such a boy, that's such a >> Man, that's such a boy, that's such a >> Man, that's such a boy, that's such a hard uh question because every culture hard uh question because every culture hard uh question because every culture is different. Every every uh church has is different. Every every uh church has is different. Every every uh church has different people that have gifts and different people that have gifts and different people that have gifts and talents. But just because you've got talents. But just because you've got talents. But just because you've got somebody sitting in your seat who runs somebody sitting in your seat who runs somebody sitting in your seat who runs an ad agency an ad agency an ad agency doesn't mean that they're going to want doesn't mean that they're going to want doesn't mean that they're going to want to volunteer all their time. Um and so to volunteer all their time. Um and so to volunteer all their time. Um and so um I think you've got to when you have um I think you've got to when you have um I think you've got to when you have that list and you know it it boils down that list and you know it it boils down that list and you know it it boils down to what is something when I think about to what is something when I think about to what is something when I think about using a volunteer what is is this a using a volunteer what is is this a using a volunteer what is is this a one-time thing or is this an ongoing one-time thing or is this an ongoing one-time thing or is this an ongoing every weekly thing? If it's a one-time every weekly thing? If it's a one-time every weekly thing? If it's a one-time thing, I think that's a lot more thing, I think that's a lot more thing, I think that's a lot more accomplishable. Hey, you know, we want accomplishable. Hey, you know, we want accomplishable. Hey, you know, we want to meet um one time for this. You know, to meet um one time for this. You know, to meet um one time for this. You know, our our it's our 50th anniversary and our our it's our 50th anniversary and our our it's our 50th anniversary and it's next year and we want to have a it's next year and we want to have a it's next year and we want to have a really great big huge party. Yeah, that really great big huge party. Yeah, that really great big huge party. Yeah, that would be fun to get some of the Hey, if

would be fun to get some of the Hey, if would be fun to get some of the Hey, if you're in the marketing space, we really you're in the marketing space, we really you're in the marketing space, we really want your creativity. Come join us for want your creativity. Come join us for want your creativity. Come join us for to be on this committee for a season. uh to be on this committee for a season. uh to be on this committee for a season. uh versus I've got to have somebody who's versus I've got to have somebody who's versus I've got to have somebody who's posting on social media week in and week posting on social media week in and week posting on social media week in and week out being strategic and knowing what out being strategic and knowing what out being strategic and knowing what they're doing and how they're doing it. they're doing and how they're doing it. they're doing and how they're doing it. I would be really careful about having a I would be really careful about having a I would be really careful about having a volunteer do that. If that's all you've volunteer do that. If that's all you've volunteer do that. If that's all you've got, well then there's a different got, well then there's a different got, well then there's a different strategy to work with those volunteers. strategy to work with those volunteers. strategy to work with those volunteers. But s things like that that require an But s things like that that require an But s things like that that require an ongoing it requires a skill set, ongoing it requires a skill set, ongoing it requires a skill set, expertise and and time and it's every expertise and and time and it's every expertise and and time and it's every week then I would really be looking at week then I would really be looking at week then I would really be looking at heart of going we need to either hire heart of going we need to either hire heart of going we need to either hire internally for that. Maybe it's a internally for that. Maybe it's a internally for that. Maybe it's a part-time person that is in our church part-time person that is in our church part-time person that is in our church that could give us 10 hours a week and that could give us 10 hours a week and that could give us 10 hours a week and you pay them. You don't ask them to do you pay them. You don't ask them to do you pay them. You don't ask them to do it for free. They'll burn out. They it for free. They'll burn out. They it for free. They'll burn out. They won't they won't last. Uh it's a rare won't they won't last. Uh it's a rare won't they won't last. Uh it's a rare person who can do that. They're either person who can do that. They're either person who can do that. They're either retired, retired, retired, you know, or they're maybe a a you know, or they're maybe a a you know, or they're maybe a a stay-at-home mom or dad, right? But that stay-at-home mom or dad, right? But that stay-at-home mom or dad, right? But that those are those people are rare. I would those are those people are rare. I would those are those people are rare. I would I would probably insist that you get I would probably insist that you get I would probably insist that you get some budget to hire that out. And it some budget to hire that out. And it some budget to hire that out. And it might just be something that's going to might just be something that's going to might just be something that's going to be small for a little while or it's, you be small for a little while or it's, you be small for a little while or it's, you know, it's just because you say, "Oh, I know, it's just because you say, "Oh, I know, it's just because you say, "Oh, I want to have a robust social media." I want to have a robust social media." I want to have a robust social media." I you teach on this part. The key to that you teach on this part. The key to that you teach on this part. The key to that is just have a plan. Work the plan. You is just have a plan. Work the plan. You is just have a plan. Work the plan. You say this all the time. Have a plan. Work say this all the time. Have a plan. Work say this all the time. Have a plan. Work the plan. Maybe it's once or twice a the plan. Maybe it's once or twice a the plan. Maybe it's once or twice a week. That's all you're doing in social week. That's all you're doing in social week. That's all you're doing in social media. You want to grow to like five media. You want to grow to like five media. You want to grow to like five times a week, but that's going to take times a week, but that's going to take times a week, but that's going to take time and money. So, I I think I I

time and money. So, I I think I I time and money. So, I I think I I probably put the the two lists together probably put the the two lists together probably put the the two lists together and go, what can I what can I have a and go, what can I what can I have a and go, what can I what can I have a volunteer doing? No, it's only a volunteer doing? No, it's only a volunteer doing? No, it's only a one-time thing or there's low one-time thing or there's low one-time thing or there's low commitment, something that somebody's commitment, something that somebody's commitment, something that somebody's not going to bail on me. Now, I'm gonna not going to bail on me. Now, I'm gonna not going to bail on me. Now, I'm gonna be left holding the bag or it's this is be left holding the bag or it's this is be left holding the bag or it's this is a this is we have to do this well every a this is we have to do this well every a this is we have to do this well every single week. There's no there's no days single week. There's no there's no days single week. There's no there's no days off. Those are the kind of things that off. Those are the kind of things that off. Those are the kind of things that either if you're going to do them, you either if you're going to do them, you either if you're going to do them, you either want to outsource that to a either want to outsource that to a either want to outsource that to a vendor or perhaps a contract employee vendor or perhaps a contract employee vendor or perhaps a contract employee that could give you like a few hours or that could give you like a few hours or that could give you like a few hours or five hours a week at a certain price and five hours a week at a certain price and five hours a week at a certain price and then maybe you build it into a a then maybe you build it into a a then maybe you build it into a a full-time position eventually. full-time position eventually. full-time position eventually. >> Yeah. I I like you started the first >> Yeah. I I like you started the first >> Yeah. I I like you started the first thing that you talked about was like one thing that you talked about was like one thing that you talked about was like one oneoff events, right? one-time things oneoff events, right? one-time things oneoff events, right? one-time things and those things come up all the time and those things come up all the time and those things come up all the time and having people who are in sort of and having people who are in sort of and having people who are in sort of your bag of tricks who have certain your bag of tricks who have certain your bag of tricks who have certain skills and abilities that you can ask to skills and abilities that you can ask to skills and abilities that you can ask to participate on a one-time thing. I think participate on a one-time thing. I think participate on a one-time thing. I think you know uh there are some things that you know uh there are some things that you know uh there are some things that it's just impossible to outsource and we it's just impossible to outsource and we it's just impossible to outsource and we have this conversation with churches a have this conversation with churches a have this conversation with churches a lot. It's impossible for you to lot. It's impossible for you to lot. It's impossible for you to outsource the photography for your outsource the photography for your outsource the photography for your weekend worship services, right? I mean, weekend worship services, right? I mean, weekend worship services, right? I mean, it's not impossible, but it's more it's not impossible, but it's more it's not impossible, but it's more practical for you to have somebody who's practical for you to have somebody who's practical for you to have somebody who's a part of your church who's already a part of your church who's already a part of your church who's already going to be there on a regular basis.

going to be there on a regular basis. going to be there on a regular basis. Community engagement, community events Community engagement, community events Community engagement, community events and activities that you're doing, and activities that you're doing, and activities that you're doing, service projects, if you want people service projects, if you want people service projects, if you want people chronicling those things, shooting chronicling those things, shooting chronicling those things, shooting video, shooting vid, you know, shooting video, shooting vid, you know, shooting video, shooting vid, you know, shooting photos, it just often makes more sense photos, it just often makes more sense photos, it just often makes more sense to have an internal volunteer doing to have an internal volunteer doing to have an internal volunteer doing those things. I would say the number one those things. I would say the number one those things. I would say the number one that really the number one thing when I that really the number one thing when I that really the number one thing when I am evaluating volunteers versus am evaluating volunteers versus am evaluating volunteers versus outsourcing is going to typically be outsourcing is going to typically be outsourcing is going to typically be related to flexibility with timeline. If related to flexibility with timeline. If related to flexibility with timeline. If I have hard deadlines, hard timelines I have hard deadlines, hard timelines I have hard deadlines, hard timelines that have to be met and there is no that have to be met and there is no that have to be met and there is no flexibility here, flexibility here, flexibility here, >> I'm probably going to outsource that. >> I'm probably going to outsource that. >> I'm probably going to outsource that. Yeah. Because oftentimes when you're Yeah. Because oftentimes when you're Yeah. Because oftentimes when you're working with volunteers, you have to working with volunteers, you have to working with volunteers, you have to have a little bit more gray area and have a little bit more gray area and have a little bit more gray area and it's a little harder to hold volunteers it's a little harder to hold volunteers it's a little harder to hold volunteers to that high level of accountability to that high level of accountability to that high level of accountability that you need to when you have a hard that you need to when you have a hard that you need to when you have a hard deadline. So, let's say for instance, deadline. So, let's say for instance, deadline. So, let's say for instance, you're doing a um a you're doing a a you're doing a um a you're doing a a you're doing a um a you're doing a a financial uh stewardship campaign and financial uh stewardship campaign and financial uh stewardship campaign and you need a booklet put together that you need a booklet put together that you need a booklet put together that promotes all the details on that and you promotes all the details on that and you promotes all the details on that and you happen to have a volunteer in your happen to have a volunteer in your happen to have a volunteer in your church who's an expert in in design.

church who's an expert in in design. church who's an expert in in design. They know how to do it and they can do They know how to do it and they can do They know how to do it and they can do the layout. they can do it for you if the layout. they can do it for you if the layout. they can do it for you if you bring them in as a volunteer. Um, you bring them in as a volunteer. Um, you bring them in as a volunteer. Um, sometimes the the the level of response sometimes the the the level of response sometimes the the the level of response that you get and of course this is going that you get and of course this is going that you get and of course this is going to vary from volunteer to volunteer. If to vary from volunteer to volunteer. If to vary from volunteer to volunteer. If they don't miss the dead make the they don't miss the dead make the they don't miss the dead make the deadline, what are the consequences if deadline, what are the consequences if deadline, what are the consequences if they don't make the deadline? Whereas if they don't make the deadline? Whereas if they don't make the deadline? Whereas if you outsource that project to a vendor you outsource that project to a vendor you outsource that project to a vendor who you're paying to get it done, who you're paying to get it done, who you're paying to get it done, >> what are the consequences if they fail? >> what are the consequences if they fail? >> what are the consequences if they fail? Well, they lose your business. Uh, you Well, they lose your business. Uh, you Well, they lose your business. Uh, you you know, there there's a consequence to you know, there there's a consequence to you know, there there's a consequence to that. It's harder to have It's harder to that. It's harder to have It's harder to that. It's harder to have It's harder to have hard conversations have hard conversations have hard conversations about uh competency and deadlines with a about uh competency and deadlines with a about uh competency and deadlines with a volunteer than it is someone that you're volunteer than it is someone that you're volunteer than it is someone that you're hiring. I hired you. You're an expert. hiring. I hired you. You're an expert. hiring. I hired you. You're an expert. You promised to deliver a certain time You promised to deliver a certain time You promised to deliver a certain time frame. And if you failed to deliver, frame. And if you failed to deliver, frame. And if you failed to deliver, then I'm I'm forced to have a hard hard then I'm I'm forced to have a hard hard then I'm I'm forced to have a hard hard conversation with you. It's easier for conversation with you. It's easier for conversation with you. It's easier for me to break up with a vendor than it is me to break up with a vendor than it is me to break up with a vendor than it is for me to break up with a volunteer. for me to break up with a volunteer. for me to break up with a volunteer. Well, there's consequences there. If you Well, there's consequences there. If you Well, there's consequences there. If you pay me, even if it's a little bit of pay me, even if it's a little bit of pay me, even if it's a little bit of money and I at my church and you're money and I at my church and you're money and I at my church and you're going to pay me some money because I'm going to pay me some money because I'm going to pay me some money because I'm an expert in this area and you're going an expert in this area and you're going an expert in this area and you're going to pay me to do it, then I'm going to to pay me to do it, then I'm going to to pay me to do it, then I'm going to get it done. Versus if I'm volunteering get it done. Versus if I'm volunteering get it done. Versus if I'm volunteering my time, it's not the if something else my time, it's not the if something else my time, it's not the if something else in my life pops up, guess what I'm in my life pops up, guess what I'm in my life pops up, guess what I'm doing? I'm taking care of that over this doing? I'm taking care of that over this doing? I'm taking care of that over this project.

project. project. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and I'm coping out going, "Hey, send >> And and I'm coping out going, "Hey, send >> And and I'm coping out going, "Hey, send him a text. I can't make it. Hey, him a text. I can't make it. Hey, him a text. I can't make it. Hey, because you don't really own it. because you don't really own it. because you don't really own it. >> And again, it's it's a level. It's kind >> And again, it's it's a level. It's kind >> And again, it's it's a level. It's kind of like a level thing. So, for example, of like a level thing. So, for example, of like a level thing. So, for example, >> I pick up signs. >> I pick up signs. >> I pick up signs. >> This is my job at Sun Valley where I go. >> This is my job at Sun Valley where I go. >> This is my job at Sun Valley where I go. I pick up signs that are A-frame signs I pick up signs that are A-frame signs I pick up signs that are A-frame signs on the corners of the streets every on the corners of the streets every on the corners of the streets every Sunday afternoon. Sunday afternoon. Sunday afternoon. >> That's your ministry, huh? >> That's your ministry, huh? >> That's your ministry, huh? >> That's my That's one of my ministries. >> That's my That's one of my ministries. >> That's my That's one of my ministries. And Carrie Pow, the gal that I love And Carrie Pow, the gal that I love And Carrie Pow, the gal that I love Carrie, she doesn't care when I get it Carrie, she doesn't care when I get it Carrie, she doesn't care when I get it done. It just needs They need to be done. It just needs They need to be done. It just needs They need to be picked up before Monday morning. So, it picked up before Monday morning. So, it picked up before Monday morning. So, it could be in the middle of the night on could be in the middle of the night on could be in the middle of the night on Sunday night or it could be like 1:00 in Sunday night or it could be like 1:00 in Sunday night or it could be like 1:00 in the afternoon. She doesn't care, but she the afternoon. She doesn't care, but she the afternoon. She doesn't care, but she knows that I'm going to get it done and knows that I'm going to get it done and knows that I'm going to get it done and I have a window of time and it's picking I have a window of time and it's picking I have a window of time and it's picking up signs. So, I text her when I'm done up signs. So, I text her when I'm done up signs. So, I text her when I'm done with it. Like, I just done um or I text with it. Like, I just done um or I text with it. Like, I just done um or I text her, hey, I'm going to be out, right? her, hey, I'm going to be out, right? her, hey, I'm going to be out, right? That kind of that kind of I mean, it's That kind of that kind of I mean, it's That kind of that kind of I mean, it's low. It's low. I don't have to think. I low. It's low. I don't have to think. I low. It's low. I don't have to think. I just got to drive my truck around and just got to drive my truck around and just got to drive my truck around and pick up signs. It's not very difficult. pick up signs. It's not very difficult. pick up signs. It's not very difficult. But I don't just space it and forget it, But I don't just space it and forget it, But I don't just space it and forget it, right? I I hold myself accountable to right? I I hold myself accountable to right? I I hold myself accountable to something like that even though it's something like that even though it's something like that even though it's very low. Now, if the church wanted me very low. Now, if the church wanted me very low. Now, if the church wanted me to run a capital campaign kind of a to run a capital campaign kind of a to run a capital campaign kind of a thing and it was a huge commitment and thing and it was a huge commitment and thing and it was a huge commitment and it's a big big deal and they're asking it's a big big deal and they're asking it's a big big deal and they're asking me to volunteer my time with that, I'm me to volunteer my time with that, I'm me to volunteer my time with that, I'm going to be a little more reluctant to going to be a little more reluctant to going to be a little more reluctant to say yes to that. And the church really say yes to that. And the church really say yes to that. And the church really should not do that to me because you're should not do that to me because you're should not do that to me because you're asking for somebody to give hours and asking for somebody to give hours and asking for somebody to give hours and hours of their expertise. that deserves

hours of their expertise. that deserves hours of their expertise. that deserves a wage. And and the reason why it a wage. And and the reason why it a wage. And and the reason why it deserves a wage is because now I own it. deserves a wage is because now I own it. deserves a wage is because now I own it. I'm responsible. The church is entrusted I'm responsible. The church is entrusted I'm responsible. The church is entrusted in me to get this job done. So, you got in me to get this job done. So, you got in me to get this job done. So, you got to really be careful with with that to really be careful with with that to really be careful with with that because like you just said, if it's because like you just said, if it's because like you just said, if it's easier to break up with a vendor who easier to break up with a vendor who easier to break up with a vendor who you'll probably never see again versus a you'll probably never see again versus a you'll probably never see again versus a volunteer. And if you lean on that volunteer. And if you lean on that volunteer. And if you lean on that volunteer, if you're going to I'd volunteer, if you're going to I'd volunteer, if you're going to I'd recommend you almost pay that volunteer. recommend you almost pay that volunteer. recommend you almost pay that volunteer. That way, if it doesn't even work out, That way, if it doesn't even work out, That way, if it doesn't even work out, it's like, well, we gave it a shot. we it's like, well, we gave it a shot. we it's like, well, we gave it a shot. we paid you some money, so no hard paid you some money, so no hard paid you some money, so no hard feelings. Versus, yeah, you didn't even feelings. Versus, yeah, you didn't even feelings. Versus, yeah, you didn't even do your job you said you would do. do your job you said you would do. do your job you said you would do. You're basically saying, "Go find You're basically saying, "Go find You're basically saying, "Go find another church." another church." another church." >> Well, I I have I have some I have some >> Well, I I have I have some I have some >> Well, I I have I have some I have some very strong feelings about that. We very strong feelings about that. We very strong feelings about that. We don't have time to deep dive on this, don't have time to deep dive on this, don't have time to deep dive on this, but I I'll I'll tell you this. Another but I I'll I'll tell you this. Another but I I'll I'll tell you this. Another area, another time that you would area, another time that you would area, another time that you would probably want to consider outsourcing probably want to consider outsourcing probably want to consider outsourcing versus volunteers is if you're talking versus volunteers is if you're talking versus volunteers is if you're talking about a very specialized skill set. So I about a very specialized skill set. So I about a very specialized skill set. So I used the the example of of of an expert used the the example of of of an expert used the the example of of of an expert in in design, someone who's a graphic in in design, someone who's a graphic in in design, someone who's a graphic designer, someone who's um you know an designer, someone who's um you know an designer, someone who's um you know an after effects um designer, someone who after effects um designer, someone who after effects um designer, someone who can build Google, somebody who knows can build Google, somebody who knows can build Google, somebody who knows who's an expert in Google and knows how who's an expert in Google and knows how who's an expert in Google and knows how to build Google ads or or as an SEO to build Google ads or or as an SEO to build Google ads or or as an SEO expert. When you start getting into some expert. When you start getting into some expert. When you start getting into some of these special skills, more often than of these special skills, more often than of these special skills, more often than not, you're going to need to hire a not, you're going to need to hire a not, you're going to need to hire a vendor or outsource those types of vendor or outsource those types of vendor or outsource those types of things. But here's this is a per this is things. But here's this is a per this is things. But here's this is a per this is a personal thing and and not everyone is a personal thing and and not everyone is a personal thing and and not everyone is going to agree with this but I am going to agree with this but I am going to agree with this but I am typically not inclined even if someone typically not inclined even if someone typically not inclined even if someone is an expert in my church to hire is an expert in my church to hire is an expert in my church to hire someone in my church to do work for my someone in my church to do work for my someone in my church to do work for my church and and the reason for that is if

church and and the reason for that is if church and and the reason for that is if it doesn't go well it can negatively it doesn't go well it can negatively it doesn't go well it can negatively affect the relationship. So I here's affect the relationship. So I here's affect the relationship. So I here's here's a silly example years and years here's a silly example years and years here's a silly example years and years ago years and years ago I'm talking ago years and years ago I'm talking ago years and years ago I'm talking probably 15 years ago at least. Um, probably 15 years ago at least. Um, probably 15 years ago at least. Um, yeah, probably close to 20 years ago, my yeah, probably close to 20 years ago, my yeah, probably close to 20 years ago, my wife and I actually hired um I was wife and I actually hired um I was wife and I actually hired um I was pastor on staff of church and we hired pastor on staff of church and we hired pastor on staff of church and we hired uh some men from our church who did home uh some men from our church who did home uh some men from our church who did home renovation work to come and do some renovation work to come and do some renovation work to come and do some flooring work in our house. And after flooring work in our house. And after flooring work in our house. And after the first day, we realized it was not the first day, we realized it was not the first day, we realized it was not going to work out. They they weren't going to work out. They they weren't going to work out. They they weren't delivering uh in the way that we delivering uh in the way that we delivering uh in the way that we expected them to. And it was one of the expected them to. And it was one of the expected them to. And it was one of the most challenging things to actually go most challenging things to actually go most challenging things to actually go and actually fire people who were part and actually fire people who were part and actually fire people who were part of my church family from a job that I of my church family from a job that I of my church family from a job that I had hired them to do. Now, I didn't hire had hired them to do. Now, I didn't hire had hired them to do. Now, I didn't hire them to do a job for the church. I hired them to do a job for the church. I hired them to do a job for the church. I hired them to do a job personally. But I would them to do a job personally. But I would them to do a job personally. But I would view it the same way. If I hire someone view it the same way. If I hire someone view it the same way. If I hire someone in my church, even if they're an expert in my church, even if they're an expert in my church, even if they're an expert in something um and it doesn't go well, in something um and it doesn't go well, in something um and it doesn't go well, the relationship is always going to have the relationship is always going to have the relationship is always going to have a weirdness factor to it. And again, a weirdness factor to it. And again, a weirdness factor to it. And again, I've never been like, you know, your I've never been like, you know, your I've never been like, you know, your church there when you were on on staff church there when you were on on staff church there when you were on on staff at Central was, you know, thousands and at Central was, you know, thousands and at Central was, you know, thousands and thousands of people. And oftentimes if thousands of people. And oftentimes if thousands of people. And oftentimes if you were going to hire somebody, you you were going to hire somebody, you you were going to hire somebody, you might be like 12 degrees of separation might be like 12 degrees of separation might be like 12 degrees of separation relationally from that person that relationally from that person that relationally from that person that you're hiring. When you're in a smaller you're hiring. When you're in a smaller you're hiring. When you're in a smaller church of 200 or 300 or 400 people and church of 200 or 300 or 400 people and church of 200 or 300 or 400 people and you're hiring someone from within the you're hiring someone from within the you're hiring someone from within the church to do a job and it doesn't get church to do a job and it doesn't get church to do a job and it doesn't get done the way it needs to get done and done the way it needs to get done and done the way it needs to get done and you have to kind of kind of terminate you have to kind of kind of terminate you have to kind of kind of terminate that relationship, it does create some that relationship, it does create some that relationship, it does create some awkwardness there. And so I'm I'm less

awkwardness there. And so I'm I'm less awkwardness there. And so I'm I'm less inclined to hire people inside the inclined to hire people inside the inclined to hire people inside the church. Now, hiring people for staff is church. Now, hiring people for staff is church. Now, hiring people for staff is different, right? Um because you're different, right? Um because you're different, right? Um because you're hiring somebody in an ongoing role, but hiring somebody in an ongoing role, but hiring somebody in an ongoing role, but one-off projects or things like that, I one-off projects or things like that, I one-off projects or things like that, I tend to shy away from tend to shy away from tend to shy away from >> Well, kind of depends. I mean, you want >> Well, kind of depends. I mean, you want >> Well, kind of depends. I mean, you want to do your due diligence. Just because to do your due diligence. Just because to do your due diligence. Just because they're friends, they're friends, they're friends, >> doesn't mean they get the job, >> doesn't mean they get the job, >> doesn't mean they get the job, >> right? I mean, I'm think of a church >> right? I mean, I'm think of a church >> right? I mean, I'm think of a church that we're building their website, and that we're building their website, and that we're building their website, and the lady who hired us to build the the lady who hired us to build the the lady who hired us to build the website was a was a servant leader. website was a was a servant leader. website was a was a servant leader. Well, she got hired, her firm got hired Well, she got hired, her firm got hired Well, she got hired, her firm got hired to to come up with a new logo for the to to come up with a new logo for the to to come up with a new logo for the church in the school did a fantastic job church in the school did a fantastic job church in the school did a fantastic job and she goes, we're not cheap and the and she goes, we're not cheap and the and she goes, we're not cheap and the church recognable firm, you know, that they did their due firm, you know, that they did their due diligence. So, I think it all depends on diligence. So, I think it all depends on diligence. So, I think it all depends on you don't just blindly go, oh, you like you don't just blindly go, oh, you like you don't just blindly go, oh, you like I said, I said it's a personal it's a I said, I said it's a personal it's a I said, I said it's a personal it's a personal thing for me just on on one bad personal thing for me just on on one bad personal thing for me just on on one bad experience and my wife and I said, yeah, experience and my wife and I said, yeah, experience and my wife and I said, yeah, we won't ever do that again. Okay, we we won't ever do that again. Okay, we we won't ever do that again. Okay, we got to we got to keep moving because got to we got to keep moving because got to we got to keep moving because we're we're we're already kind of at the we're we're we're already kind of at the we're we're we're already kind of at the end of our time, but we still have a end of our time, but we still have a end of our time, but we still have a couple more points that I want to kind couple more points that I want to kind couple more points that I want to kind of hit on here. Um, you know, when it of hit on here. Um, you know, when it of hit on here. Um, you know, when it comes to bringing in volunteers, and comes to bringing in volunteers, and comes to bringing in volunteers, and again, we have always been advocates for again, we have always been advocates for again, we have always been advocates for empowering people in your communications empowering people in your communications empowering people in your communications ministry as volunteers. Yeah.

ministry as volunteers. Yeah. ministry as volunteers. Yeah. >> But there is one thing that we have very >> But there is one thing that we have very >> But there is one thing that we have very seldom ever talked about, and that is seldom ever talked about, and that is seldom ever talked about, and that is that a free volunteer will often cost that a free volunteer will often cost that a free volunteer will often cost you your time. you your time. you your time. >> Yes. And you do need to do the hard >> Yes. And you do need to do the hard >> Yes. And you do need to do the hard calculation of what your time is worth calculation of what your time is worth calculation of what your time is worth because leading volunteers simply takes because leading volunteers simply takes because leading volunteers simply takes more time. Um why don't you speak to more time. Um why don't you speak to more time. Um why don't you speak to that just a little bit Jason? that just a little bit Jason? that just a little bit Jason? >> Well you unless you're working for free >> Well you unless you're working for free >> Well you unless you're working for free which you're not. You know you're you which you're not. You know you're you which you're not. You know you're you have an hourly rate. So the question is have an hourly rate. So the question is have an hourly rate. So the question is in everything you do are you being a in everything you do are you being a in everything you do are you being a good steward? I mean you could be good steward? I mean you could be good steward? I mean you could be working on your own website. Great. working on your own website. Great. working on your own website. Great. Well, that's going to require a lot of Well, that's going to require a lot of Well, that's going to require a lot of hours because I build we build church hours because I build we build church hours because I build we build church websites. So, so now you're you're websites. So, so now you're you're websites. So, so now you're you're choosing to spend your time building choosing to spend your time building choosing to spend your time building that website versus going, you know that website versus going, you know that website versus going, you know what, I can only I can outsource that to what, I can only I can outsource that to what, I can only I can outsource that to somebody else who's an expert in somebody else who's an expert in somebody else who's an expert in building websites, but nobody can do the building websites, but nobody can do the building websites, but nobody can do the job that I can only do with some of the job that I can only do with some of the job that I can only do with some of the things that I I can only because I'm I'm things that I I can only because I'm I'm things that I I can only because I'm I'm in this space inside the church. Same in this space inside the church. Same in this space inside the church. Same thing with leading volunteers. If you're thing with leading volunteers. If you're thing with leading volunteers. If you're going to lead volunteers, it's going to going to lead volunteers, it's going to going to lead volunteers, it's going to cost you. you have to invest in that and cost you. you have to invest in that and cost you. you have to invest in that and that's totally fine. Just understand that's totally fine. Just understand that's totally fine. Just understand what you're walking into because there's what you're walking into because there's what you're walking into because there's an hourly rate that you're being paid an hourly rate that you're being paid an hourly rate that you're being paid and so it's just not free. Well, and so it's just not free. Well, and so it's just not free. Well, volunteers free. No. Uh because it's got volunteers free. No. Uh because it's got volunteers free. No. Uh because it's got a lot of extra tentacles to it. Like you a lot of extra tentacles to it. Like you a lot of extra tentacles to it. Like you said, if it goes south, that's a that's said, if it goes south, that's a that's said, if it goes south, that's a that's a rough conversation to have, right? And a rough conversation to have, right? And a rough conversation to have, right? And then people who are disgruntled will then people who are disgruntled will then people who are disgruntled will tell lots of people. So, you got to be

tell lots of people. So, you got to be tell lots of people. So, you got to be really careful. really careful. really careful. >> Well, here's the deal, Jason. If it goes >> Well, here's the deal, Jason. If it goes >> Well, here's the deal, Jason. If it goes south and it still needs to get done or south and it still needs to get done or south and it still needs to get done or you have to do it all over again, it you have to do it all over again, it you have to do it all over again, it just cost you twice as much time as it just cost you twice as much time as it just cost you twice as much time as it why you're you're gonna end up doing it why you're you're gonna end up doing it why you're you're gonna end up doing it twice instead of having it done once the twice instead of having it done once the twice instead of having it done once the first time, right? first time, right? first time, right? >> Or you're going to be doing it at home >> Or you're going to be doing it at home >> Or you're going to be doing it at home on your own time. You don't want to do on your own time. You don't want to do on your own time. You don't want to do that because you got a family. So, we that because you got a family. So, we that because you got a family. So, we all understand that's a situation right all understand that's a situation right all understand that's a situation right there. So, calculating your hours and there. So, calculating your hours and there. So, calculating your hours and sometimes it's just a matter of going, sometimes it's just a matter of going, sometimes it's just a matter of going, okay, it might just make more sense to okay, it might just make more sense to okay, it might just make more sense to outsource this to an expert who's going outsource this to an expert who's going outsource this to an expert who's going to get it done. We know it's going to to get it done. We know it's going to to get it done. We know it's going to get done right. it's actually going to get done right. it's actually going to get done right. it's actually going to cost us less, right? Usually it's less cost us less, right? Usually it's less cost us less, right? Usually it's less than it would be your time to manage a than it would be your time to manage a than it would be your time to manage a volunteer or that would be equal, right? volunteer or that would be equal, right? volunteer or that would be equal, right? Um or hiring somebody is going to be a Um or hiring somebody is going to be a Um or hiring somebody is going to be a lot more expensive than just outsourcing lot more expensive than just outsourcing lot more expensive than just outsourcing it to a vendor who specializes in that it to a vendor who specializes in that it to a vendor who specializes in that in that area. in that area. in that area. >> Well, even if it doesn't cost you less, >> Well, even if it doesn't cost you less, >> Well, even if it doesn't cost you less, you at least have a fixed cost to it and you at least have a fixed cost to it and you at least have a fixed cost to it and you know going in what it's actually you know going in what it's actually you know going in what it's actually going to cost you, right? And if you're going to cost you, right? And if you're going to cost you, right? And if you're working with a vendor who can't give you working with a vendor who can't give you working with a vendor who can't give you a cost or a really really solid a cost or a really really solid a cost or a really really solid estimate, then you should go talk to a estimate, then you should go talk to a estimate, then you should go talk to a different vendor. Right. Right. I we different vendor. Right. Right. I we different vendor. Right. Right. I we we've all probably had those those we've all probably had those those we've all probably had those those contract situations where they, you contract situations where they, you contract situations where they, you know, they give you a range. Well, it know, they give you a range. Well, it know, they give you a range. Well, it could cost you somewhere between $200 could cost you somewhere between $200 could cost you somewhere between $200 and $2,000. Like, oh, I'm sorry, but and $2,000. Like, oh, I'm sorry, but and $2,000. Like, oh, I'm sorry, but that's a bit too much of a range for me.

that's a bit too much of a range for me. that's a bit too much of a range for me. But I think, you know, sometimes paying But I think, you know, sometimes paying But I think, you know, sometimes paying for help, even if it costs more, is for help, even if it costs more, is for help, even if it costs more, is better stewardship than trying to DIY better stewardship than trying to DIY better stewardship than trying to DIY things and finding yourself circling things and finding yourself circling things and finding yourself circling back around and having to redo projects back around and having to redo projects back around and having to redo projects or missing deadlines or, you know, or missing deadlines or, you know, or missing deadlines or, you know, whatever whatever the costs end up end whatever whatever the costs end up end whatever whatever the costs end up end up being. And we've all been there. We up being. And we've all been there. We up being. And we've all been there. We we've all we we've all been in those we've all we we've all been in those we've all we we've all been in those types of situations. You know, the the types of situations. You know, the the types of situations. You know, the the last point in this, Jason, is okay, last point in this, Jason, is okay, last point in this, Jason, is okay, if I'm the comm's director, I've made my if I'm the comm's director, I've made my if I'm the comm's director, I've made my list. I've prioritized things. I've list. I've prioritized things. I've list. I've prioritized things. I've recognized I've got a few things that I recognized I've got a few things that I recognized I've got a few things that I can probably empower some volunteers to can probably empower some volunteers to can probably empower some volunteers to do. In fact, I might even have in mind do. In fact, I might even have in mind do. In fact, I might even have in mind some of those volunteers could be, but I some of those volunteers could be, but I some of those volunteers could be, but I still have a few things on my list that still have a few things on my list that still have a few things on my list that I really need to get done. I really need to get done. I really need to get done. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I'm gonna have to ask for some money >> And I'm gonna have to ask for some money >> And I'm gonna have to ask for some money from my leadership team to get this from my leadership team to get this from my leadership team to get this done. whether that's running ads or some done. whether that's running ads or some done. whether that's running ads or some SEO work or building or renovating a SEO work or building or renovating a SEO work or building or renovating a website. Um, how how do I go to my website. Um, how how do I go to my website. Um, how how do I go to my leadership team and present my case?

leadership team and present my case? leadership team and present my case? >> Well, I I said it earlier. Um, >> Well, I I said it earlier. Um, >> Well, I I said it earlier. Um, when you walk in with a plan, when you walk in with a plan, when you walk in with a plan, you're going to be well respected and you're going to be well respected and you're going to be well respected and you're going to be taken seriously. If you're going to be taken seriously. If you're going to be taken seriously. If you walk in empty-handed going, I can't you walk in empty-handed going, I can't you walk in empty-handed going, I can't get all this stuff done. I need help. get all this stuff done. I need help. get all this stuff done. I need help. Now, you're just needy and you're not Now, you're just needy and you're not Now, you're just needy and you're not coming with a vision. And if I was a coming with a vision. And if I was a coming with a vision. And if I was a lead pastor, I'd be like, "All right, lead pastor, I'd be like, "All right, lead pastor, I'd be like, "All right, thanks. This meeting's over with. Go thanks. This meeting's over with. Go thanks. This meeting's over with. Go back to your office and figure out what back to your office and figure out what back to your office and figure out what you need to come back to me with a plan. you need to come back to me with a plan. you need to come back to me with a plan. You're wasting my time." So, I would I You're wasting my time." So, I would I You're wasting my time." So, I would I would do that exercise. And then I would do that exercise. And then I would do that exercise. And then I really love what you said here. You got really love what you said here. You got really love what you said here. You got to frame frame it as an investment, to frame frame it as an investment, to frame frame it as an investment, not an expense. I want to invest in not an expense. I want to invest in not an expense. I want to invest in this. And why? We want more people this. And why? We want more people this. And why? We want more people following Jesus. We want more people following Jesus. We want more people following Jesus. We want more people sitting in our seats. We want more sitting in our seats. We want more sitting in our seats. We want more people in small groups. We want we want people in small groups. We want we want people in small groups. We want we want more of what you're telling me more of what you're telling me more of what you're telling me leadership is the goals of this of our leadership is the goals of this of our leadership is the goals of this of our church and this organization. And so church and this organization. And so church and this organization. And so it's got to be it's got to be painted as it's got to be it's got to be painted as it's got to be it's got to be painted as I want to invest in this. And so you I want to invest in this. And so you I want to invest in this. And so you know you you don't just you don't go know you you don't just you don't go know you you don't just you don't go from well I get I have $5,000 budget to from well I get I have $5,000 budget to from well I get I have $5,000 budget to I want $500,000.

I want $500,000. I want $500,000. Be a little realistic, you know. So Be a little realistic, you know. So Be a little realistic, you know. So start have a have a good game plan like start have a have a good game plan like start have a have a good game plan like I want to get to $200,000 and they're I want to get to $200,000 and they're I want to get to $200,000 and they're going this is nuts. But hey, I have big going this is nuts. But hey, I have big going this is nuts. But hey, I have big vision here. But you're going to say, vision here. But you're going to say, vision here. But you're going to say, "But right now, what I really need is I "But right now, what I really need is I "But right now, what I really need is I need an extra $5,000. And here's what I need an extra $5,000. And here's what I need an extra $5,000. And here's what I would do." I'm making that up. It's would do." I'm making that up. It's would do." I'm making that up. It's whatever it's going to be. I This is whatever it's going to be. I This is whatever it's going to be. I This is what I'm going to do with those $5,000. what I'm going to do with those $5,000. what I'm going to do with those $5,000. This is how I'm going to be a good This is how I'm going to be a good This is how I'm going to be a good steward. And this is the ROI I'm hoping steward. And this is the ROI I'm hoping steward. And this is the ROI I'm hoping to expect from this investment. That's to expect from this investment. That's to expect from this investment. That's kind words matter and posture really, kind words matter and posture really, kind words matter and posture really, really matters and preparedness really, really matters and preparedness really, really matters and preparedness really, really matters. And um that I mean really matters. And um that I mean really matters. And um that I mean that's you have some wisdom you'd that's you have some wisdom you'd that's you have some wisdom you'd probably throw in there too. Yeah, I probably throw in there too. Yeah, I probably throw in there too. Yeah, I think a big thing is especially think a big thing is especially think a big thing is especially depending on what the specific work is depending on what the specific work is depending on what the specific work is that you're looking to outsource. U this that you're looking to outsource. U this that you're looking to outsource. U this is this is a probably a passion point is this is a probably a passion point is this is a probably a passion point for us at missional marketing and church for us at missional marketing and church for us at missional marketing and church communications group is that when communications group is that when communications group is that when churches come to us and they ask us to churches come to us and they ask us to churches come to us and they ask us to take on either one-time projects or take on either one-time projects or take on either one-time projects or ongoing work for them. uh we are firm ongoing work for them. uh we are firm ongoing work for them. uh we are firm believers in be able being able to believers in be able being able to believers in be able being able to provide really effective reporting in provide really effective reporting in provide really effective reporting in terms of the work that we've done and terms of the work that we've done and terms of the work that we've done and the impact that it's made uh because I the impact that it's made uh because I the impact that it's made uh because I mean I've literally I've been emailing mean I've literally I've been emailing mean I've literally I've been emailing back and forth with um a gal at one of back and forth with um a gal at one of back and forth with um a gal at one of our church partners in Michigan. They're our church partners in Michigan. They're our church partners in Michigan. They're not a big church. They're they're a few not a big church. They're they're a few not a big church. They're they're a few hundred people. They she's a volunteer hundred people. They she's a volunteer hundred people. They she's a volunteer works directly with the the senior works directly with the the senior works directly with the the senior pastor. um she's putting together a pastor. um she's putting together a pastor. um she's putting together a report for their board uh for basically report for their board uh for basically report for their board uh for basically the first six months of the year to show the first six months of the year to show the first six months of the year to show how their marketing efforts have made an

how their marketing efforts have made an how their marketing efforts have made an impact in their church year-over-year. impact in their church year-over-year. impact in their church year-over-year. So, I've been working with her back and So, I've been working with her back and So, I've been working with her back and forth to put together uh some charts and forth to put together uh some charts and forth to put together uh some charts and some data so that she can go before the some data so that she can go before the some data so that she can go before the board to justify the money that they've board to justify the money that they've board to justify the money that they've spent and hopefully ask for some more spent and hopefully ask for some more spent and hopefully ask for some more money in the next budget cycle so that money in the next budget cycle so that money in the next budget cycle so that they can continue to move the needle and they can continue to move the needle and they can continue to move the needle and to do more and to spend more on their to do more and to spend more on their to do more and to spend more on their their their digital outreach, their their their digital outreach, their their their digital outreach, their digital marketing. And like we're really digital marketing. And like we're really digital marketing. And like we're really big on that. So, if you're going to any big on that. So, if you're going to any big on that. So, if you're going to any kind of vendor, es especially if there's kind of vendor, es especially if there's kind of vendor, es especially if there's especially if it's like a marketing or especially if it's like a marketing or especially if it's like a marketing or an SEO related type of thing. I mean, an SEO related type of thing. I mean, an SEO related type of thing. I mean, there's certain things that you're going there's certain things that you're going there's certain things that you're going to outsource like, hey, maybe it's to outsource like, hey, maybe it's to outsource like, hey, maybe it's hiring somebody to do your sermon video hiring somebody to do your sermon video hiring somebody to do your sermon video bumpers, right? Well, the proof is in bumpers, right? Well, the proof is in bumpers, right? Well, the proof is in what they produce for you, right? Or or what they produce for you, right? Or or what they produce for you, right? Or or maybe you're looking for somebody to maybe you're looking for somebody to maybe you're looking for somebody to just schedule and post your social just schedule and post your social just schedule and post your social media. Um, you know, the proof is, well, media. Um, you know, the proof is, well, media. Um, you know, the proof is, well, they did what they said they were going they did what they said they were going they did what they said they were going to do. But there are some things that to do. But there are some things that to do. But there are some things that you do need to have a little bit more you do need to have a little bit more you do need to have a little bit more proof in the ROI on. And so just make proof in the ROI on. And so just make proof in the ROI on. And so just make sure that whoever you're outsourcing to sure that whoever you're outsourcing to sure that whoever you're outsourcing to already has a plan in place to be able already has a plan in place to be able already has a plan in place to be able to provide regular port reporting and to provide regular port reporting and to provide regular port reporting and data for you so that you can justify data for you so that you can justify data for you so that you can justify those expenses that you have.

those expenses that you have. those expenses that you have. >> Yeah, that's good that everything you're >> Yeah, that's good that everything you're >> Yeah, that's good that everything you're saying there is is spot on. You know, saying there is is spot on. You know, saying there is is spot on. You know, when in doubt, either reach out to Bard when in doubt, either reach out to Bard when in doubt, either reach out to Bard or myself or u use Chat GPT regardless. or myself or u use Chat GPT regardless. or myself or u use Chat GPT regardless. You got to walk in with a plan. Don't You got to walk in with a plan. Don't You got to walk in with a plan. Don't don't don't walk in empty-handed and and don't don't walk in empty-handed and and don't don't walk in empty-handed and and and say, "I need help." You know, just and say, "I need help." You know, just and say, "I need help." You know, just nobody wants to hear from that person. nobody wants to hear from that person. nobody wants to hear from that person. and they want to hear from somebody and they want to hear from somebody and they want to hear from somebody who's got a vision. who's got a vision. who's got a vision. >> Yeah, absolutely. Well, we got to wrap >> Yeah, absolutely. Well, we got to wrap >> Yeah, absolutely. Well, we got to wrap this up. This is uh uh Hey, we we're this up. This is uh uh Hey, we we're this up. This is uh uh Hey, we we're we're we're trucking towards the 200th we're we're trucking towards the 200th we're we're trucking towards the 200th episode. We've promised that we're going episode. We've promised that we're going episode. We've promised that we're going to hit the 200. I don't know that any of to hit the 200. I don't know that any of to hit the 200. I don't know that any of our audience really cares, but you and I our audience really cares, but you and I our audience really cares, but you and I do. So, we're trucking towards episode do. So, we're trucking towards episode do. So, we're trucking towards episode number 200. For those of you who made it number 200. For those of you who made it number 200. For those of you who made it all the way to the end, thank you so all the way to the end, thank you so all the way to the end, thank you so much uh for tuning into the show. If much uh for tuning into the show. If much uh for tuning into the show. If you're a regular listener, we really do you're a regular listener, we really do you're a regular listener, we really do appreciate uh you uh hanging in with us appreciate uh you uh hanging in with us appreciate uh you uh hanging in with us over all the years. We've we've watched over all the years. We've we've watched over all the years. We've we've watched the um the download metrics of this the um the download metrics of this the um the download metrics of this podcast uh just slowly inch up over the podcast uh just slowly inch up over the podcast uh just slowly inch up over the years and same on our YouTube channel. years and same on our YouTube channel. years and same on our YouTube channel. Uh we love you out there. If you find Uh we love you out there. If you find Uh we love you out there. If you find this content to be helpful, if you this content to be helpful, if you this content to be helpful, if you would, please leave us a rating or would, please leave us a rating or would, please leave us a rating or review wherever you listen to the review wherever you listen to the review wherever you listen to the podcast. Share it with another ministry podcast. Share it with another ministry podcast. Share it with another ministry colleague or somebody else that you know colleague or somebody else that you know colleague or somebody else that you know who might find it to be helpful. And who might find it to be helpful. And who might find it to be helpful. And again, as Jason has mentioned several again, as Jason has mentioned several again, as Jason has mentioned several times, if there's ever anything uh that times, if there's ever anything uh that times, if there's ever anything uh that we can do for you, please let us know. I we can do for you, please let us know. I we can do for you, please let us know. I will give one more little shout out here will give one more little shout out here will give one more little shout out here um to uh any of you who might be um to uh any of you who might be um to uh any of you who might be interested in meeting with us in person interested in meeting with us in person interested in meeting with us in person uh in September. Uh we're hosting a uh in September. Uh we're hosting a uh in September. Uh we're hosting a conference, the Church Communications conference, the Church Communications conference, the Church Communications Conference in Kansas City. Jason, what Conference in Kansas City. Jason, what Conference in Kansas City. Jason, what are the dates? Do you remember them all?

are the dates? Do you remember them all? are the dates? Do you remember them all? >> 23rd, 24th, and 25th. Go to >> 23rd, 24th, and 25th. Go to >> 23rd, 24th, and 25th. Go to churchcommunications.com. churchcommunications.com. churchcommunications.com. >> Yeah, churchcommunications.com. >> Yeah, churchcommunications.com. >> Yeah, churchcommunications.com. Uh as of the time of this recording, Uh as of the time of this recording, Uh as of the time of this recording, there is still an early bird special. I there is still an early bird special. I there is still an early bird special. I don't know if the early bird special don't know if the early bird special don't know if the early bird special will still be out there, but hey, get in will still be out there, but hey, get in will still be out there, but hey, get in there, get registered. Uh, show up in there, get registered. Uh, show up in there, get registered. Uh, show up in Kansas City. Uh, many of our team Kansas City. Uh, many of our team Kansas City. Uh, many of our team members will be there. We're going to do members will be there. We're going to do members will be there. We're going to do some deep dive on a lot of different some deep dive on a lot of different some deep dive on a lot of different things that will really help you uh and things that will really help you uh and things that will really help you uh and your church be more effective at your church be more effective at your church be more effective at leveraging digital marketing and leveraging digital marketing and leveraging digital marketing and communications to reach more people for communications to reach more people for communications to reach more people for Jesus. Thanks again for tuning in and Jesus. Thanks again for tuning in and Jesus. Thanks again for tuning in and we'll see you next time.