Rising to the Leadership Challenge of COVID-19 - Interview with Pastor Matt Ware

today i'm speaking with matt ware today i'm speaking with matt ware now matt's the senior pastor for victory now matt's the senior pastor for victory now matt's the senior pastor for victory church in the denver area church in the denver area church in the denver area matt and i are going to be talking about matt and i are going to be talking about matt and i are going to be talking about pivoting and during the past year pivoting and during the past year pivoting and during the past year every church in the country has had to every church in the country has had to every church in the country has had to pivot because of covenant team pivot because of covenant team pivot because of covenant team so now the question becomes what are the so now the question becomes what are the so now the question becomes what are the next pivot steps next pivot steps next pivot steps you need to take because going back is you need to take because going back is you need to take because going back is is not an option is not an option is not an option well matt gives some really good insight well matt gives some really good insight well matt gives some really good insight into how they into how they into how they made a very successful pivot i hope you made a very successful pivot i hope you made a very successful pivot i hope you enjoy enjoy enjoy well hey matt thanks so much for joining well hey matt thanks so much for joining well hey matt thanks so much for joining us glad to have you here us glad to have you here us glad to have you here yeah glad to be with you jason yeah glad to be with you jason yeah glad to be with you jason appreciate the opportunity and man just appreciate the opportunity and man just appreciate the opportunity and man just love what you guys do love being able to love what you guys do love being able to love what you guys do love being able to partner with you and all of this so partner with you and all of this so partner with you and all of this so uh glad to sit down and chat for a few uh glad to sit down and chat for a few uh glad to sit down and chat for a few minutes today minutes today minutes today absolutely so uh tell me what it's been absolutely so uh tell me what it's been absolutely so uh tell me what it's been like for you to like for you to like for you to to lead through this last season of to lead through this last season of to lead through this last season of ministry with covid ministry with covid ministry with covid yeah um you know it's interesting yeah um you know it's interesting yeah um you know it's interesting because i think obviously people have because i think obviously people have because i think obviously people have very very very uh very different perspectives on this uh very different perspectives on this uh very different perspectives on this kind of depending on their context and kind of depending on their context and kind of depending on their context and their wiring and all of that their wiring and all of that their wiring and all of that and so i actually feel like this has and so i actually feel like this has and so i actually feel like this has been been been the best most exhilarating most exciting the best most exhilarating most exciting the best most exhilarating most exciting uh leadership opportunity for me that uh leadership opportunity for me that uh leadership opportunity for me that i've ever had i've ever had i've ever had and i've absolutely loved it and of and i've absolutely loved it and of and i've absolutely loved it and of course that's not to say that there course that's not to say that there course that's not to say that there aren't some aren't some aren't some hard days and some stressful situations hard days and some stressful situations hard days and some stressful situations as we've all been through over the last as we've all been through over the last as we've all been through over the last number of months uh but i think from a number of months uh but i think from a number of months uh but i think from a leadership perspective leadership perspective leadership perspective uh you know my my view on this is really uh you know my my view on this is really uh you know my my view on this is really leaders are made leaders are made leaders are made for uh for these types of situations you

for uh for these types of situations you for uh for these types of situations you know their leaders are know their leaders are know their leaders are are made in crisis they're made for are made in crisis they're made for are made in crisis they're made for crisis i think you know and crisis i think you know and crisis i think you know and crisis calls leadership out of us i crisis calls leadership out of us i crisis calls leadership out of us i think in think in think in a greater way so um i've i've honestly a greater way so um i've i've honestly a greater way so um i've i've honestly loved it and and that's not to say that loved it and and that's not to say that loved it and and that's not to say that you know there's not real you know there's not real you know there's not real issues that you're dealing with with issues that you're dealing with with issues that you're dealing with with people in the church and in ministry and people in the church and in ministry and people in the church and in ministry and the the challenges that they're walking the the challenges that they're walking the the challenges that they're walking through through through but from a pastoral position from a but from a pastoral position from a but from a pastoral position from a leadership position leadership position leadership position i just think man there's never been a i just think man there's never been a i just think man there's never been a better time or a better opportunity better time or a better opportunity better time or a better opportunity to jump in and just lead people toward to jump in and just lead people toward to jump in and just lead people toward uh the best things that god has for them uh the best things that god has for them uh the best things that god has for them so i'm sure you know there's like two so i'm sure you know there's like two so i'm sure you know there's like two camps camps camps leading your staff um probably a lot leading your staff um probably a lot leading your staff um probably a lot easier than maybe leading the easier than maybe leading the easier than maybe leading the congregation what's it been like for congregation what's it been like for congregation what's it been like for for both yeah i think um for both yeah i think um for both yeah i think um you know in our context and of course you know in our context and of course you know in our context and of course everybody's context is different so everybody's context is different so everybody's context is different so uh you know just to give you maybe a uh you know just to give you maybe a uh you know just to give you maybe a little bit of perspective for us little bit of perspective for us little bit of perspective for us uh we had not been uh live streaming our uh we had not been uh live streaming our uh we had not been uh live streaming our services prior to covid services prior to covid services prior to covid uh of course you know we did what a lot uh of course you know we did what a lot uh of course you know we did what a lot of churches you know that we're doing of churches you know that we're doing of churches you know that we're doing you know we we put the video you know we we put the video you know we we put the video on the website 24 hours later you know on the website 24 hours later you know on the website 24 hours later you know on a monday or tuesday or whatever on a monday or tuesday or whatever on a monday or tuesday or whatever but we weren't actually live streaming but we weren't actually live streaming but we weren't actually live streaming and so of course like everyone we and so of course like everyone we and so of course like everyone we pivoted very quickly pivoted very quickly pivoted very quickly uh what was interesting for us is we had uh what was interesting for us is we had uh what was interesting for us is we had already already already actually launched a resource initiative actually launched a resource initiative actually launched a resource initiative about a year ago uh to raise funds about a year ago uh to raise funds about a year ago uh to raise funds because part of our vision was to be because part of our vision was to be because part of our vision was to be live streaming live streaming live streaming and so we had already raised some and so we had already raised some and so we had already raised some funding for that and so we were funding for that and so we were funding for that and so we were able to quickly pivot to that in terms able to quickly pivot to that in terms able to quickly pivot to that in terms of having the resources to get some of

of having the resources to get some of of having the resources to get some of the gear and the setup and all those the gear and the setup and all those the gear and the setup and all those things so things so things so we were in a very unique position in we were in a very unique position in we were in a very unique position in that way because not only that way because not only that way because not only was it out of necessity but it actually was it out of necessity but it actually was it out of necessity but it actually just gave us a catapult just gave us a catapult just gave us a catapult forward into some things that we had forward into some things that we had forward into some things that we had already planned from a vision standpoint already planned from a vision standpoint already planned from a vision standpoint and so for our congregation that was a and so for our congregation that was a and so for our congregation that was a huge win because all of a sudden huge win because all of a sudden huge win because all of a sudden the world's falling apart but but our the world's falling apart but but our the world's falling apart but but our church is doing something and moving church is doing something and moving church is doing something and moving forward and we had already given to it forward and we had already given to it forward and we had already given to it and so and so and so that was a win for the church uh but of that was a win for the church uh but of that was a win for the church uh but of course the challenge of leadership for course the challenge of leadership for course the challenge of leadership for everybody even if they were live everybody even if they were live everybody even if they were live streaming streaming streaming is uh how do you now engage people in an is uh how do you now engage people in an is uh how do you now engage people in an exclusively online environment exclusively online environment exclusively online environment uh and so you know just like everybody uh and so you know just like everybody uh and so you know just like everybody we're we're learning how to do that and we're we're learning how to do that and we're we're learning how to do that and figuring that out and really figuring that out and really figuring that out and really i think trying to make the shift between i think trying to make the shift between i think trying to make the shift between um the shift from attendance to um the shift from attendance to um the shift from attendance to engagement engagement engagement you know i think pastors are so so so you know i think pastors are so so so you know i think pastors are so so so dialed into this idea of you know dialed into this idea of you know dialed into this idea of you know how many people are coming and we know how many people are coming and we know how many people are coming and we know it's not just the number it's not just the number it's not just the number but we know that those numbers represent but we know that those numbers represent but we know that those numbers represent peoples and people and lives and stories peoples and people and lives and stories peoples and people and lives and stories uh and so now you know we don't see the uh and so now you know we don't see the uh and so now you know we don't see the people in front of us necessarily people in front of us necessarily people in front of us necessarily you know even if you're reopened you you know even if you're reopened you you know even if you're reopened you know you don't see the crowds maybe like know you don't see the crowds maybe like know you don't see the crowds maybe like you used to you used to you used to but how can you gauge uh engagement and but how can you gauge uh engagement and but how can you gauge uh engagement and that's really something that we're that's really something that we're that's really something that we're focusing on focusing on focusing on both in an online and now we we have both in an online and now we we have both in an online and now we we have just begun to have services in person just begun to have services in person just begun to have services in person again again again uh so engagement i think has been the uh so engagement i think has been the uh so engagement i think has been the big challenge uh big challenge uh big challenge uh from a congregational leadership from a congregational leadership from a congregational leadership perspective have you perspective have you perspective have you um so looking at 2021 which um so looking at 2021 which um so looking at 2021 which let's get through this year and over let's get through this year and over let's get through this year and over with it quickly right yeah are we with it quickly right yeah are we with it quickly right yeah are we thinking about 2021 thinking about 2021 thinking about 2021 already come on but so you know when you

already come on but so you know when you already come on but so you know when you think about think about think about the church i i heard a quote one time the church i i heard a quote one time the church i i heard a quote one time and i forget the source of it but that and i forget the source of it but that and i forget the source of it but that said said said we want to be seen as an online church we want to be seen as an online church we want to be seen as an online church with with with physical locations it's a different physical locations it's a different physical locations it's a different mindset mindset mindset right and and when you think about the right and and when you think about the right and and when you think about the future and how you future and how you future and how you how you create that engagement not just how you create that engagement not just how you create that engagement not just with your own congregation but from with your own congregation but from with your own congregation but from people in your community people in your community people in your community um is that something you guys are um is that something you guys are um is that something you guys are thinking about and planning about and thinking about and planning about and thinking about and planning about and then then then you've had to execute on it right what you've had to execute on it right what you've had to execute on it right what does that look like for you does that look like for you does that look like for you for your church in the future yeah i for your church in the future yeah i for your church in the future yeah i think that's a think that's a think that's a that's really a great question that that that's really a great question that that that's really a great question that that the whole big c the whole big c the whole big c church probably is wrestling with right church probably is wrestling with right church probably is wrestling with right now uh it's been interesting because you now uh it's been interesting because you now uh it's been interesting because you know when we first shifted to an online know when we first shifted to an online know when we first shifted to an online environment environment environment you know the the the the company line you know the the the the company line you know the the the the company line you know not just for us but i think for you know not just for us but i think for you know not just for us but i think for everybody is hey the church is not a everybody is hey the church is not a everybody is hey the church is not a building the church is people building the church is people building the church is people so even though we can't be in the so even though we can't be in the so even though we can't be in the building we can still be the church and building we can still be the church and building we can still be the church and and all of that's true and it's right uh and all of that's true and it's right uh and all of that's true and it's right uh but what we also discovered but what we also discovered but what we also discovered uh in the process is that there is uh in the process is that there is uh in the process is that there is really a value in the gathering of the really a value in the gathering of the really a value in the gathering of the of the family of of christ and so uh how of the family of of christ and so uh how of the family of of christ and so uh how do we do we do we how do we bridge both and say you know how do we bridge both and say you know how do we bridge both and say you know we we really can see we we really can see we we really can see online engagement as legitimate online engagement as legitimate online engagement as legitimate engagement in the church engagement in the church engagement in the church while also recognizing there are some while also recognizing there are some while also recognizing there are some things that just don't things that just don't things that just don't translate uh outside of human translate uh outside of human translate uh outside of human interaction interaction interaction and uh of course we live in a world and uh of course we live in a world and uh of course we live in a world that's that's different you know in so that's that's different you know in so that's that's different you know in so many ways and so uh it's interesting many ways and so uh it's interesting many ways and so uh it's interesting because because because one of the and i i would love to quote

one of the and i i would love to quote one of the and i i would love to quote them on a big but i don't remember who them on a big but i don't remember who them on a big but i don't remember who it was it was it was uh they were talking about this idea uh they were talking about this idea uh they were talking about this idea early on this is maybe like in may of early on this is maybe like in may of early on this is maybe like in may of this year and they talked about this year and they talked about this year and they talked about uh the idea that it doesn't matter how uh the idea that it doesn't matter how uh the idea that it doesn't matter how you meet you meet you meet uh the person that you're dating you uh the person that you're dating you uh the person that you're dating you know you might have met him you know know you might have met him you know know you might have met him you know in a in a church service you might have in a in a church service you might have in a in a church service you might have met him you know in a met him you know in a met him you know in a you know in a club you might have met you know in a club you might have met you know in a club you might have met him online however you met them and him online however you met them and him online however you met them and especially you're talking about this especially you're talking about this especially you're talking about this digital environment digital environment digital environment the goal is not to have an online the goal is not to have an online the goal is not to have an online relationship the goal ultimately relationship the goal ultimately relationship the goal ultimately is to you know even if you met him is to you know even if you met him is to you know even if you met him through online dating you actually want through online dating you actually want through online dating you actually want to sit down in a restaurant have dinner to sit down in a restaurant have dinner to sit down in a restaurant have dinner together at some point together at some point together at some point and so we are thinking about this idea and so we are thinking about this idea and so we are thinking about this idea that online is great that online is great that online is great and there's so much ministry that we can and there's so much ministry that we can and there's so much ministry that we can do but ultimately we still believe do but ultimately we still believe do but ultimately we still believe there's such a there's such a there's such a value in people having interaction with value in people having interaction with value in people having interaction with each other and so each other and so each other and so how do you meet them where they are uh how do you meet them where they are uh how do you meet them where they are uh which is online right now in a lot of which is online right now in a lot of which is online right now in a lot of cases and i think will increasingly be cases and i think will increasingly be cases and i think will increasingly be and we've all known that online and we've all known that online and we've all known that online is the front door for the church for a is the front door for the church for a is the front door for the church for a long time anyway long time anyway long time anyway but then how do we actually sit down at but then how do we actually sit down at but then how do we actually sit down at the table with them so to speak the table with them so to speak the table with them so to speak uh and so i think that we've we've had uh and so i think that we've we've had uh and so i think that we've we've had some some interesting experiences with some some interesting experiences with some some interesting experiences with that already i'm sure like some other that already i'm sure like some other that already i'm sure like some other churches where churches where churches where people are engaging online and they're people are engaging online and they're people are engaging online and they're actually joining our small groups and actually joining our small groups and actually joining our small groups and we've had people we've had people we've had people start giving to the church even though start giving to the church even though start giving to the church even though they've never physically been to the they've never physically been to the they've never physically been to the church and so so we know there's a ton church and so so we know there's a ton church and so so we know there's a ton of potential there of potential there of potential there uh and yet we'd love to have real uh and yet we'd love to have real uh and yet we'd love to have real face-to-face face-to-face face-to-face you know contact with them too yeah well you know contact with them too yeah well you know contact with them too yeah well that's i get really excited that's i get really excited that's i get really excited because i think this pandemic has caused because i think this pandemic has caused because i think this pandemic has caused leaders like yourself to have to think leaders like yourself to have to think leaders like yourself to have to think about what online

about what online about what online looks like how can you engage somebody looks like how can you engage somebody looks like how can you engage somebody uh disciple somebody from a distance but uh disciple somebody from a distance but uh disciple somebody from a distance but ultimately understanding ultimately understanding ultimately understanding you really want to have face-to-face you really want to have face-to-face you really want to have face-to-face communication when you can communication when you can communication when you can connections when you can um but connections when you can um but connections when you can um but for you to even start with building for you to even start with building for you to even start with building ways and methods and content to connect ways and methods and content to connect ways and methods and content to connect with people with people with people online i think there's a lot there's a online i think there's a lot there's a online i think there's a lot there's a ton of value in that because the church ton of value in that because the church ton of value in that because the church wasn't wasn't wasn't that it was all no just come to our that it was all no just come to our that it was all no just come to our church and then we'll connect church and then we'll connect church and then we'll connect you know and that's that's that's you know and that's that's that's you know and that's that's that's changed absolutely changed absolutely changed absolutely absolutely and i think that's where absolutely and i think that's where absolutely and i think that's where everybody's got to get creative probably everybody's got to get creative probably everybody's got to get creative probably in their own context because what we've in their own context because what we've in their own context because what we've discovered is you know discovered is you know discovered is you know what is working in some other church what is working in some other church what is working in some other church doesn't necessarily work for us and doesn't necessarily work for us and doesn't necessarily work for us and probably some things we're doing probably some things we're doing probably some things we're doing wouldn't work in other places too wouldn't work in other places too wouldn't work in other places too so i think there is still this value of so i think there is still this value of so i think there is still this value of saying as a as a spiritual leader as a saying as a as a spiritual leader as a saying as a as a spiritual leader as a shepherd shepherd shepherd you know as it were to this flock uh do you know as it were to this flock uh do you know as it were to this flock uh do you know your flock you know your flock you know your flock do you know the people who god's already do you know the people who god's already do you know the people who god's already brought into your community brought into your community brought into your community uh and and how do you meet them where uh and and how do you meet them where uh and and how do you meet them where they're at and we they're at and we they're at and we uh to be honest with you we've tried uh to be honest with you we've tried uh to be honest with you we've tried some things that worked and tried some some things that worked and tried some some things that worked and tried some things that didn't work things that didn't work things that didn't work and uh man what a great year to to and uh man what a great year to to and uh man what a great year to to experiment with things and experiment with things and experiment with things and and if it works you say man you know and if it works you say man you know and if it works you say man you know god's really with us and if it doesn't god's really with us and if it doesn't god's really with us and if it doesn't work you blame it on covid and it's just work you blame it on covid and it's just work you blame it on covid and it's just it's great so oh that's funny what so give me a couple oh that's funny what so give me a couple of things that are working of things that are working of things that are working yeah one of the things that um that we yeah one of the things that um that we yeah one of the things that um that we we just we launched early on uh just as we just we launched early on uh just as we just we launched early on uh just as a way to keep people engaged again you

a way to keep people engaged again you a way to keep people engaged again you know realizing know realizing know realizing engagement was the marker not attendance engagement was the marker not attendance engagement was the marker not attendance we did this thing on we did this thing on we did this thing on on facebook live every night at seven on facebook live every night at seven on facebook live every night at seven o'clock monday through friday o'clock monday through friday o'clock monday through friday we had a different one of our staff we had a different one of our staff we had a different one of our staff pastors get on and and just do like a pastors get on and and just do like a pastors get on and and just do like a five to seven minute you know just kind five to seven minute you know just kind five to seven minute you know just kind of a devotional here's a of a devotional here's a of a devotional here's a just a thought or a verse that i want to just a thought or a verse that i want to just a thought or a verse that i want to share with you and just pray for people share with you and just pray for people share with you and just pray for people and whatever and whatever and whatever uh and and something as simple as that uh and and something as simple as that uh and and something as simple as that and we called it pastor chat and we called it pastor chat and we called it pastor chat uh and we did it five nights a week you uh and we did it five nights a week you uh and we did it five nights a week you know from the really the start of covid know from the really the start of covid know from the really the start of covid up until just a couple of weeks ago up until just a couple of weeks ago up until just a couple of weeks ago uh and something as simple as that just uh and something as simple as that just uh and something as simple as that just a little five minute thing every day a little five minute thing every day a little five minute thing every day uh just engaged our people in a really uh just engaged our people in a really uh just engaged our people in a really significant way significant way significant way and what was cool about it is uh it and what was cool about it is uh it and what was cool about it is uh it didn't just engage the congregation it didn't just engage the congregation it didn't just engage the congregation it engaged all my pastors on the staff engaged all my pastors on the staff engaged all my pastors on the staff in a different way in terms of speaking in a different way in terms of speaking in a different way in terms of speaking to the congregation and so to the congregation and so to the congregation and so you know some of them maybe wouldn't you know some of them maybe wouldn't you know some of them maybe wouldn't necessarily have the platform you know necessarily have the platform you know necessarily have the platform you know they're maybe maybe they weren't they're maybe maybe they weren't they're maybe maybe they weren't preaching pastors or they weren't preaching pastors or they weren't preaching pastors or they weren't people who who would normally you know people who who would normally you know people who who would normally you know be on the stage on a weekend be on the stage on a weekend be on the stage on a weekend but now they had a direct voice into the but now they had a direct voice into the but now they had a direct voice into the congregation which also bonded congregation which also bonded congregation which also bonded uh them to the people and the people to uh them to the people and the people to uh them to the people and the people to them and so uh them and so uh them and so uh something you know as simple as that something you know as simple as that something you know as simple as that really made a difference for our people really made a difference for our people really made a difference for our people to to to to engage them and to engage the team to engage them and to engage the team to engage them and to engage the team which was fun that's good which was fun that's good which was fun that's good yeah what are this might be a yeah what are this might be a yeah what are this might be a probably uh if you zoom out you know probably uh if you zoom out you know probably uh if you zoom out you know even before covet but what are some of even before covet but what are some of even before covet but what are some of the back door the back door the back door issues that you guys might have had that issues that you guys might have had that issues that you guys might have had that you've been able to close you've been able to close you've been able to close you know obviously engagement's one you know obviously engagement's one you know obviously engagement's one thing you know before covet it was thing you know before covet it was thing you know before covet it was a church you know a family would

a church you know a family would a church you know a family would typically attend like 1.5 times a month typically attend like 1.5 times a month typically attend like 1.5 times a month type of thing right type of thing right type of thing right just just kind of what's going on are just just kind of what's going on are just just kind of what's going on are there things that you guys were doing or there things that you guys were doing or there things that you guys were doing or will do will do will do uh in the future to try and close the uh in the future to try and close the uh in the future to try and close the back door of back door of back door of people leaving especially especially now people leaving especially especially now people leaving especially especially now that we're that we're that we're we tend to the big sea church is growing we tend to the big sea church is growing we tend to the big sea church is growing older older older having uh struggling to grow younger having uh struggling to grow younger having uh struggling to grow younger yeah yeah yeah yeah that's a great question and i think yeah that's a great question and i think yeah that's a great question and i think um um um we were actually i think trying to to we were actually i think trying to to we were actually i think trying to to navigate some of that stuff right navigate some of that stuff right navigate some of that stuff right right before covet and i don't know that right before covet and i don't know that right before covet and i don't know that we came up with a lot of good answers in we came up with a lot of good answers in we came up with a lot of good answers in terms of terms of terms of what are our back doors and how do we what are our back doors and how do we what are our back doors and how do we close them close them close them throughout the covet process what we've throughout the covet process what we've throughout the covet process what we've discovered is that people discovered is that people discovered is that people who were who were really embedded in who were who were really embedded in who were who were really embedded in relationships in the church relationships in the church relationships in the church tended to fare much better through a tended to fare much better through a tended to fare much better through a crisis than those who were not crisis than those who were not crisis than those who were not and that that's not a surprise i'm sure and that that's not a surprise i'm sure and that that's not a surprise i'm sure but it just but it just but it just really came to the forefront for us really came to the forefront for us really came to the forefront for us those who were connected uh you know in those who were connected uh you know in those who were connected uh you know in small groups or bible studies or other small groups or bible studies or other small groups or bible studies or other classes classes classes if they were engaged in some way other if they were engaged in some way other if they were engaged in some way other than just attending a sunday service than just attending a sunday service than just attending a sunday service uh they did far better spiritually uh they did far better spiritually uh they did far better spiritually emotionally relationally and all those emotionally relationally and all those emotionally relationally and all those things things things and so we just have really recognized and so we just have really recognized and so we just have really recognized the value in creating a greater sense of the value in creating a greater sense of the value in creating a greater sense of community community community within our church and you know like so within our church and you know like so within our church and you know like so many churches i'm sure you know many churches i'm sure you know many churches i'm sure you know we have small groups we have some of we have small groups we have some of we have small groups we have some of those things but they hadn't been a big those things but they hadn't been a big those things but they hadn't been a big thrust for us they hadn't really been at thrust for us they hadn't really been at thrust for us they hadn't really been at the forefront and so something that we the forefront and so something that we the forefront and so something that we really are pushing now that we're really are pushing now that we're really are pushing now that we're meeting in person again meeting in person again meeting in person again is to say hey you know i mean acts

is to say hey you know i mean acts is to say hey you know i mean acts chapter 2 talks about this right the chapter 2 talks about this right the chapter 2 talks about this right the the church they attended the temple and the church they attended the temple and the church they attended the temple and they met in homes they met in homes they met in homes uh and i think that that we did the the uh and i think that that we did the the uh and i think that that we did the the attending the temple thing pretty well attending the temple thing pretty well attending the temple thing pretty well maybe we didn't do the gathering and maybe we didn't do the gathering and maybe we didn't do the gathering and homes thing nearly as well homes thing nearly as well homes thing nearly as well and so we're putting a greater emphasis and so we're putting a greater emphasis and so we're putting a greater emphasis on that and we think you know ultimately on that and we think you know ultimately on that and we think you know ultimately um i think relationships probably keep um i think relationships probably keep um i think relationships probably keep people in a church maybe people in a church maybe people in a church maybe more than a lot of other things that more than a lot of other things that more than a lot of other things that sense of community uh you know sense of community uh you know sense of community uh you know as as preaching pastors you know i'd as as preaching pastors you know i'd as as preaching pastors you know i'd love to say you know my sermon is what love to say you know my sermon is what love to say you know my sermon is what keeps them coming to church but the keeps them coming to church but the keeps them coming to church but the reality is reality is reality is they can get great content anywhere so they can get great content anywhere so they can get great content anywhere so it's not content driven as much as it is it's not content driven as much as it is it's not content driven as much as it is i think a i think a i think a sense of community and so the i wouldn't sense of community and so the i wouldn't sense of community and so the i wouldn't say that we've closed that door say that we've closed that door say that we've closed that door but i think we're aware of it now more but i think we're aware of it now more but i think we're aware of it now more than ever and we're trying to build than ever and we're trying to build than ever and we're trying to build toward the future toward the future toward the future uh that makes a sense of community uh uh that makes a sense of community uh uh that makes a sense of community uh even a bigger reason to even a bigger reason to even a bigger reason to come to church and be at church you know come to church and be at church you know come to church and be at church you know when you to come to hear me preach is when you to come to hear me preach is when you to come to hear me preach is one thing one thing one thing uh to come be with your friends i think uh to come be with your friends i think uh to come be with your friends i think is totally different and so is totally different and so is totally different and so uh that's a big emphasis for us moving uh that's a big emphasis for us moving uh that's a big emphasis for us moving forward yeah forward yeah forward yeah i mean i agree with you i think that i mean i agree with you i think that i mean i agree with you i think that god's gifted you and your voice and god's gifted you and your voice and god's gifted you and your voice and you know his message through you you know his message through you you know his message through you connects people connects people connects people gets them to come back but what gets gets them to come back but what gets gets them to come back but what gets them to stick them to stick them to stick is going to be that community right that is going to be that community right that is going to be that community right that we were born to be in community so i we were born to be in community so i we were born to be in community so i think think think rallying around that is a is a rallying around that is a is a rallying around that is a is a great strategy yeah i mean i think it is great strategy yeah i mean i think it is great strategy yeah i mean i think it is but but but but as we both know it's easier said but as we both know it's easier said but as we both know it's easier said than done right because uh than done right because uh than done right because uh it's uh it's not just a program it has it's uh it's not just a program it has it's uh it's not just a program it has to be a culture

to be a culture to be a culture and um and i think that's challenging and um and i think that's challenging and um and i think that's challenging because and i'm sure you're seeing this because and i'm sure you're seeing this because and i'm sure you're seeing this you know all over the country you know all over the country you know all over the country um people say they they crave um people say they they crave um people say they they crave community uh and yet they don't always community uh and yet they don't always community uh and yet they don't always respond to the opportunities that you respond to the opportunities that you respond to the opportunities that you give them to get in community give them to get in community give them to get in community uh and so so i think kind of figuring uh and so so i think kind of figuring uh and so so i think kind of figuring out what does it mean to actually create out what does it mean to actually create out what does it mean to actually create community community community uniquely in your context is important uniquely in your context is important uniquely in your context is important because there's no cookie cutter way to because there's no cookie cutter way to because there's no cookie cutter way to do this and you know there's do this and you know there's do this and you know there's so many great churches that have so much so many great churches that have so much so many great churches that have so much success you know with small groups or success you know with small groups or success you know with small groups or other types of formats other types of formats other types of formats but to copy and paste it as we all know but to copy and paste it as we all know but to copy and paste it as we all know you know that doesn't necessarily work you know that doesn't necessarily work you know that doesn't necessarily work so how do you do it uniquely so how do you do it uniquely so how do you do it uniquely in your local area that works for your in your local area that works for your in your local area that works for your people people people uh and and it really is creating a uh and and it really is creating a uh and and it really is creating a culture and so kind of culture and so kind of culture and so kind of the rallying cry for our team as we come the rallying cry for our team as we come the rallying cry for our team as we come into the fall into the fall into the fall is that our push is going to be to say is that our push is going to be to say is that our push is going to be to say it's going to be more it's going to be more it's going to be more normal to be in a small group than to normal to be in a small group than to normal to be in a small group than to not be in one not be in one not be in one and that's the culture we want to create and that's the culture we want to create and that's the culture we want to create is like this is just what we do here is like this is just what we do here is like this is just what we do here and it takes time obviously to build and it takes time obviously to build and it takes time obviously to build that but we think there's there's a ton that but we think there's there's a ton that but we think there's there's a ton of value there of value there of value there not only short term but long term for not only short term but long term for not only short term but long term for the strength of the church the strength of the church the strength of the church well and i've i have seen success with well and i've i have seen success with well and i've i have seen success with churches when that's articulated churches when that's articulated churches when that's articulated everywhere they look yeah on stage from everywhere they look yeah on stage from everywhere they look yeah on stage from the leader to the leader to the leader to signage to websites to events they're signage to websites to events they're signage to websites to events they're all driven towards all driven towards all driven towards getting into community group that's getting into community group that's getting into community group that's where you can be successful but you're where you can be successful but you're where you can be successful but you're like like like it can't just be one one more program on it can't just be one one more program on it can't just be one one more program on top of 30 other programs we do top of 30 other programs we do top of 30 other programs we do it has a culture of our church yeah

it has a culture of our church yeah it has a culture of our church yeah well and that's where i think you know well and that's where i think you know well and that's where i think you know um um um for better or worse i think the church for better or worse i think the church for better or worse i think the church over the last number of months has been over the last number of months has been over the last number of months has been forced uh to really identify what are forced uh to really identify what are forced uh to really identify what are what are the essentials what are the essentials what are the essentials and what what were just kind of nice and what what were just kind of nice and what what were just kind of nice ideas or nice programs ideas or nice programs ideas or nice programs uh that we had in a season of of luxury uh that we had in a season of of luxury uh that we had in a season of of luxury so to speak that maybe we don't have now so to speak that maybe we don't have now so to speak that maybe we don't have now and so uh for us i think we're really and so uh for us i think we're really and so uh for us i think we're really looking at how do we simplify looking at how do we simplify looking at how do we simplify what we do and say you know just like what we do and say you know just like what we do and say you know just like you're talking about instead of this is you're talking about instead of this is you're talking about instead of this is one of 30 things that you can engage in one of 30 things that you can engage in one of 30 things that you can engage in here here here maybe we only have five things uh and maybe we only have five things uh and maybe we only have five things uh and that allows us to emphasize those things that allows us to emphasize those things that allows us to emphasize those things a lot more a lot more a lot more and say you know this is what we're all and say you know this is what we're all and say you know this is what we're all about and we're going to be all in on about and we're going to be all in on about and we're going to be all in on these things these things these things a simpler menu to choose from but we can a simpler menu to choose from but we can a simpler menu to choose from but we can we can do everything well we can do everything well we can do everything well yeah it seems like this has give this yeah it seems like this has give this yeah it seems like this has give this has afforded you the opportunity to go has afforded you the opportunity to go has afforded you the opportunity to go time out okay now when we get back in time out okay now when we get back in time out okay now when we get back in person what are those person what are those person what are those some of those things that we might have some of those things that we might have some of those things that we might have considered a sacred cow we are considered a sacred cow we are considered a sacred cow we are not going to bring with us and one of not going to bring with us and one of not going to bring with us and one of the things we're going to do in the the things we're going to do in the the things we're going to do in the future that future that future that you know we want to make the culture you know we want to make the culture you know we want to make the culture sounds like small groups or life groups sounds like small groups or life groups sounds like small groups or life groups is one of those things anything else is one of those things anything else is one of those things anything else that that that falls in that camp well you know we're falls in that camp well you know we're falls in that camp well you know we're in a unique in a unique in a unique position right now because uh when we we position right now because uh when we we position right now because uh when we we actually just this actually just this actually just this uh early september 13th uh we uh early september 13th uh we uh early september 13th uh we launched back into in-person services launched back into in-person services launched back into in-person services and uh and uh and uh we did it in kind of a unique way by we did it in kind of a unique way by we did it in kind of a unique way by actually opening uh multiple sites actually opening uh multiple sites actually opening uh multiple sites throughout our city throughout our city throughout our city uh and so rather than just reopening the uh and so rather than just reopening the uh and so rather than just reopening the doors we relaunched and we launched doors we relaunched and we launched doors we relaunched and we launched three new campuses three new campuses three new campuses uh when we did that uh and so because of uh when we did that uh and so because of uh when we did that uh and so because of that our whole model is changing to say

that our whole model is changing to say that our whole model is changing to say you know for the for us this is the you know for the for us this is the you know for the for us this is the first time going multi-site first time going multi-site first time going multi-site as i know some other churches obviously as i know some other churches obviously as i know some other churches obviously have been down this road before and have been down this road before and have been down this road before and having to figure out having to figure out having to figure out what is simple enough that we can what is simple enough that we can what is simple enough that we can replicate it in multiple locations replicate it in multiple locations replicate it in multiple locations uh and so for us right now we're saying uh and so for us right now we're saying uh and so for us right now we're saying hey the sunday gathering hey the sunday gathering hey the sunday gathering and small groups that like we're going and small groups that like we're going and small groups that like we're going to be all in on those things and then to be all in on those things and then to be all in on those things and then we're going to see what develops from we're going to see what develops from we're going to see what develops from there there there because i don't think we're in an because i don't think we're in an because i don't think we're in an environment in in the church in america environment in in the church in america environment in in the church in america right now right now right now to say that hey the 30 things we used to to say that hey the 30 things we used to to say that hey the 30 things we used to do we can just go back into all of them do we can just go back into all of them do we can just go back into all of them we either don't have the resources or we we either don't have the resources or we we either don't have the resources or we don't have the people or we simply don't don't have the people or we simply don't don't have the people or we simply don't have the opportunities have the opportunities have the opportunities and so for us we're just saying man the and so for us we're just saying man the and so for us we're just saying man the gathering of the the church together on gathering of the the church together on gathering of the the church together on sundays sundays sundays and then get in homes and get in and then get in homes and get in and then get in homes and get in relationships throughout the week relationships throughout the week relationships throughout the week which which i know you know for people which which i know you know for people which which i know you know for people who've been in church for a long time who've been in church for a long time who've been in church for a long time that doesn't sound all that that doesn't sound all that that doesn't sound all that you know exciting or glamorous because you know exciting or glamorous because you know exciting or glamorous because it's very simple it's very simple it's very simple but i wonder if that's actually where but i wonder if that's actually where but i wonder if that's actually where maybe the church has has lost some of maybe the church has has lost some of maybe the church has has lost some of its way is by just trying to do so many its way is by just trying to do so many its way is by just trying to do so many things and be things and be things and be so many things we're kind of enjoying so many things we're kind of enjoying so many things we're kind of enjoying the simplicity of all of that right now the simplicity of all of that right now the simplicity of all of that right now uh uh uh and and it's easier i think for people and and it's easier i think for people and and it's easier i think for people to just say yeah i go to church on to just say yeah i go to church on to just say yeah i go to church on sunday and i gather sunday and i gather sunday and i gather with my friends during the week and with my friends during the week and with my friends during the week and there's a there's a beauty in that there's a there's a beauty in that there's a there's a beauty in that simplicity i think simplicity i think simplicity i think that's right that's right i i love that that's right that's right i i love that that's right that's right i i love that you're doing that that's really cool you're doing that that's really cool you're doing that that's really cool so so what a great model for other so so what a great model for other so so what a great model for other churches so it sounds like churches so it sounds like churches so it sounds like you're not having to spend millions of you're not having to spend millions of you're not having to spend millions of dollars on each location it's more dollars on each location it's more dollars on each location it's more a neutral location i mean there's things a neutral location i mean there's things a neutral location i mean there's things you have to have you have to have you have to have but yeah would you learn through all but yeah would you learn through all but yeah would you learn through all that process that process that process yeah we would have loved to have

yeah we would have loved to have yeah we would have loved to have millions of dollars to spend um millions of dollars to spend um millions of dollars to spend um but what uh so so here's what's what's but what uh so so here's what's what's but what uh so so here's what's what's crazy and crazy and crazy and everybody's in a different context we're everybody's in a different context we're everybody's in a different context we're in uh which is one of the more locked in uh which is one of the more locked in uh which is one of the more locked down places uh you know where our down places uh you know where our down places uh you know where our regulations are similar regulations are similar regulations are similar to california california gets the to california california gets the to california california gets the headlines but colorado's in a very headlines but colorado's in a very headlines but colorado's in a very similar spot similar spot similar spot and so we we realized you know and so we we realized you know and so we we realized you know mid-summer you know coming into early mid-summer you know coming into early mid-summer you know coming into early summer summer summer we kept having this anticipation things we kept having this anticipation things we kept having this anticipation things we're going to open back up we're going to open back up we're going to open back up and by mid-summer we realize this is and by mid-summer we realize this is and by mid-summer we realize this is going to be a much slower path than what going to be a much slower path than what going to be a much slower path than what we originally anticipated and so we originally anticipated and so we originally anticipated and so i was out of town for a couple weeks on i was out of town for a couple weeks on i was out of town for a couple weeks on vacation and i came back in mid-july vacation and i came back in mid-july vacation and i came back in mid-july and i just had this idea that i really and i just had this idea that i really and i just had this idea that i really think was was from the lord about uh think was was from the lord about uh think was was from the lord about uh instead of opening again as one instead of opening again as one instead of opening again as one church one group in one location what if church one group in one location what if church one group in one location what if we what if we found other locations we what if we found other locations we what if we found other locations throughout our city and just said hey throughout our city and just said hey throughout our city and just said hey you know depending on where you're you know depending on where you're you know depending on where you're driving from just drive this direction driving from just drive this direction driving from just drive this direction instead of that direction and we can instead of that direction and we can instead of that direction and we can still meet as a church still meet as a church still meet as a church and initially just became an idea to say and initially just became an idea to say and initially just became an idea to say how do we how do we get our church back how do we how do we get our church back how do we how do we get our church back together when we can't have these huge together when we can't have these huge together when we can't have these huge crowds crowds crowds and so uh yeah we did it on uh uh and so uh yeah we did it on uh uh and so uh yeah we did it on uh uh everybody's asked you know what's the everybody's asked you know what's the everybody's asked you know what's the budget like well we don't have a budget budget like well we don't have a budget budget like well we don't have a budget we're just trying to figure it out as we we're just trying to figure it out as we we're just trying to figure it out as we go go go so we have found you know hotels and so we have found you know hotels and so we have found you know hotels and event centers event centers event centers that are really hurting for business that are really hurting for business that are really hurting for business because they haven't been able to have because they haven't been able to have because they haven't been able to have events and so events and so events and so they love having us in there because you they love having us in there because you they love having us in there because you know their parking lot is full of cars know their parking lot is full of cars know their parking lot is full of cars and they actually look open to the and they actually look open to the and they actually look open to the community and so community and so community and so uh they need the the revenue to come in uh they need the the revenue to come in uh they need the the revenue to come in and so they're making us great deals and so they're making us great deals and so they're making us great deals uh we're getting into these places you uh we're getting into these places you uh we're getting into these places you know really easily and and really cheap know really easily and and really cheap know really easily and and really cheap and so and so and so uh so yeah so that's what we've done

uh so yeah so that's what we've done uh so yeah so that's what we've done we've just gone into those places we've just gone into those places we've just gone into those places three locations for us uh one north one three locations for us uh one north one three locations for us uh one north one south one east they're all about 30 south one east they're all about 30 south one east they're all about 30 minutes away from our current location minutes away from our current location minutes away from our current location which in denver is not a huge drive time which in denver is not a huge drive time which in denver is not a huge drive time people are used to that level of commute people are used to that level of commute people are used to that level of commute and so and so and so that's worked well for us you don't have that's worked well for us you don't have that's worked well for us you don't have to have a ton of money to do if you can to have a ton of money to do if you can to have a ton of money to do if you can find the venues that are relatively find the venues that are relatively find the venues that are relatively inexpensive of course we've had to inexpensive of course we've had to inexpensive of course we've had to invest a little bit in equipment and invest a little bit in equipment and invest a little bit in equipment and what have you what have you what have you uh we're not actually live streaming uh we're not actually live streaming uh we're not actually live streaming we're pre-recording we're pre-recording we're pre-recording sermon content so all they have to do is sermon content so all they have to do is sermon content so all they have to do is have a laptop to play a video have a laptop to play a video have a laptop to play a video uh live worship teams and so we've just uh live worship teams and so we've just uh live worship teams and so we've just parted our volunteers out to those parted our volunteers out to those parted our volunteers out to those different teams different teams different teams uh or those different locations and uh uh or those different locations and uh uh or those different locations and uh had each one of our staff pastors had each one of our staff pastors had each one of our staff pastors uh get an extra job responsibility so uh get an extra job responsibility so uh get an extra job responsibility so they're also campus pastors they're also campus pastors they're also campus pastors uh so so they're taking on extra uh so so they're taking on extra uh so so they're taking on extra leadership role during this time which leadership role during this time which leadership role during this time which is great to see them grow is great to see them grow is great to see them grow and and really what we're finding is and and really what we're finding is and and really what we're finding is that you can do this that you can do this that you can do this much simpler and much with a lot lower much simpler and much with a lot lower much simpler and much with a lot lower investment investment investment than maybe what the traditional model than maybe what the traditional model than maybe what the traditional model has been and has been and has been and i'm not going to say that it's been easy i'm not going to say that it's been easy i'm not going to say that it's been easy or without its challenges but it's or without its challenges but it's or without its challenges but it's really opened our eyes as to what is really opened our eyes as to what is really opened our eyes as to what is possible possible possible um we we anticipated at some point we um we we anticipated at some point we um we we anticipated at some point we would go multi-site in the future and in would go multi-site in the future and in would go multi-site in the future and in the back of my mind you know the back of my mind you know the back of my mind you know i'm looking at all these models of i'm looking at all these models of i'm looking at all these models of churches that have done it and thinking churches that have done it and thinking churches that have done it and thinking okay we need to okay we need to okay we need to you know at some point it'll take us you know at some point it'll take us you know at some point it'll take us probably nine to 12 months and we'll do probably nine to 12 months and we'll do probably nine to 12 months and we'll do all this research and we'll raise a all this research and we'll raise a all this research and we'll raise a couple hundred thousand dollars and couple hundred thousand dollars and couple hundred thousand dollars and we'll do all this we'll do all this we'll do all this uh and in reality we just launched uh uh and in reality we just launched uh uh and in reality we just launched uh three new campuses three new campuses three new campuses uh with about a six week lead time and uh with about a six week lead time and uh with about a six week lead time and probably you know probably you know probably you know 20 grand all in to to make it happen so

20 grand all in to to make it happen so 20 grand all in to to make it happen so uh it is possible uh it is possible uh it is possible you know how we sustain that long-term you know how we sustain that long-term you know how we sustain that long-term is anybody's guess but is anybody's guess but is anybody's guess but uh like we just alluded to nobody knows uh like we just alluded to nobody knows uh like we just alluded to nobody knows what january looks like right so we'll what january looks like right so we'll what january looks like right so we'll uh we'll figure it out as we go uh we'll figure it out as we go uh we'll figure it out as we go yeah okay so so it's all it's yeah okay so so it's all it's yeah okay so so it's all it's it's not a church plan it's almost a it's not a church plan it's almost a it's not a church plan it's almost a reset for you to figure out we're going reset for you to figure out we're going reset for you to figure out we're going to do things differently to do things differently to do things differently uh which i think is brilliant what would uh which i think is brilliant what would uh which i think is brilliant what would you say to you say to you say to uh what advice would you give to uh what advice would you give to uh what advice would you give to somebody that's thinking about somebody that's thinking about somebody that's thinking about starting a new church or you know starting a new church or you know starting a new church or you know they're wanting to plan a church i mean they're wanting to plan a church i mean they're wanting to plan a church i mean yeah what could they learn yeah i mean i yeah what could they learn yeah i mean i yeah what could they learn yeah i mean i think think think you know it does sort of depend on how you know it does sort of depend on how you know it does sort of depend on how you're looking at it right now you could you're looking at it right now you could you're looking at it right now you could say this is the best time or worst time say this is the best time or worst time say this is the best time or worst time to plant a church i happen to think it's to plant a church i happen to think it's to plant a church i happen to think it's always a good time to see the kingdom always a good time to see the kingdom always a good time to see the kingdom move forward and so move forward and so move forward and so i don't think there's bad days or bad i don't think there's bad days or bad i don't think there's bad days or bad seasons to launch out seasons to launch out seasons to launch out because i think god responds to our because i think god responds to our because i think god responds to our faith in that i think from a practical faith in that i think from a practical faith in that i think from a practical perspective perspective perspective one of the things i probably would one of the things i probably would one of the things i probably would encourage church planters or you know encourage church planters or you know encourage church planters or you know people really starting out to think people really starting out to think people really starting out to think about about about is that it is less about the building is that it is less about the building is that it is less about the building today than it's ever been today than it's ever been today than it's ever been and i think we know that but this also and i think we know that but this also and i think we know that but this also provides us a unique way to think about provides us a unique way to think about provides us a unique way to think about that that that if i were starting a church today i if i were starting a church today i if i were starting a church today i would not want would not want would not want i wouldn't really be thinking about you i wouldn't really be thinking about you i wouldn't really be thinking about you know a long-term or know a long-term or know a long-term or expensive overhead you know in terms of expensive overhead you know in terms of expensive overhead you know in terms of building building building i really would be thinking about i really would be thinking about i really would be thinking about locations that i can get in and out of locations that i can get in and out of locations that i can get in and out of without a lot of resources being without a lot of resources being without a lot of resources being invested that's not to say be fly by

invested that's not to say be fly by invested that's not to say be fly by night because like your community wants night because like your community wants night because like your community wants to see some sense of permanence that to see some sense of permanence that to see some sense of permanence that you're invested there you're invested there you're invested there but i wouldn't be i wouldn't my goal but i wouldn't be i wouldn't my goal but i wouldn't be i wouldn't my goal wouldn't be to build a multi-million wouldn't be to build a multi-million wouldn't be to build a multi-million dollar building you know my goal would dollar building you know my goal would dollar building you know my goal would be how can we begin to gather people and be how can we begin to gather people and be how can we begin to gather people and not invest our resources in that not invest our resources in that not invest our resources in that invest our resources uh in in developing invest our resources uh in in developing invest our resources uh in in developing those those those those smaller communities which i do those smaller communities which i do those smaller communities which i do think is going to be think is going to be think is going to be part of the wave of the future for the part of the wave of the future for the part of the wave of the future for the church the mega church is not going to church the mega church is not going to church the mega church is not going to go away i don't think go away i don't think go away i don't think but i think we're going to see healthy but i think we're going to see healthy but i think we're going to see healthy expressions expressions expressions that are smaller even within those mega that are smaller even within those mega that are smaller even within those mega churches you know smaller congregations churches you know smaller congregations churches you know smaller congregations more small groups more uh maybe more small groups more uh maybe more small groups more uh maybe mid-sized gatherings that are going to mid-sized gatherings that are going to mid-sized gatherings that are going to happen and so happen and so happen and so if i were starting out i wouldn't get if i were starting out i wouldn't get if i were starting out i wouldn't get fixated on you know man i just want to fixated on you know man i just want to fixated on you know man i just want to be life church or church of the be life church or church of the be life church or church of the highlands or saddleback or you know highlands or saddleback or you know highlands or saddleback or you know whatever your your model whatever your your model whatever your your model is i wouldn't i wouldn't be obsessed is i wouldn't i wouldn't be obsessed is i wouldn't i wouldn't be obsessed with that i would really focus on with that i would really focus on with that i would really focus on how do we gather people in this how do we gather people in this how do we gather people in this community and make a spiritual community and make a spiritual community and make a spiritual investment there because investment there because investment there because i think people are spiritually hungry in i think people are spiritually hungry in i think people are spiritually hungry in this season this season this season and um i think there's tremendous and um i think there's tremendous and um i think there's tremendous opportunity so opportunity so opportunity so i'd say you know don't invest your i'd say you know don't invest your i'd say you know don't invest your resources in resources in resources in uh overhead invested in discipling uh overhead invested in discipling uh overhead invested in discipling people people people yeah well said and and i'd probably add yeah well said and and i'd probably add yeah well said and and i'd probably add on to that on to that on to that my own take of you know being focused on my own take of you know being focused on my own take of you know being focused on reaching people where they are um yeah reaching people where they are um yeah reaching people where they are um yeah ethically diverse ethically diverse ethically diverse right and try to build that kite kind of right and try to build that kite kind of right and try to build that kite kind of a communion that looks a lot like heaven a communion that looks a lot like heaven a communion that looks a lot like heaven yeah it looks like and i think a church yeah it looks like and i think a church yeah it looks like and i think a church that's that that's that that's that you know a church a church plant or a you know a church a church plant or a you know a church a church plant or a pastor that takes that mindset

pastor that takes that mindset pastor that takes that mindset is gonna find success yeah is gonna find success yeah is gonna find success yeah i think that's a great point uh to i think that's a great point uh to i think that's a great point uh to really understand really understand really understand um you know i think there's an um you know i think there's an um you know i think there's an interesting challenge interesting challenge interesting challenge in in church planting and and i'm in in church planting and and i'm in in church planting and and i'm convinced uh church planting in convinced uh church planting in convinced uh church planting in america in the days ahead is going to america in the days ahead is going to america in the days ahead is going to look look look more like uh what a missionary might do more like uh what a missionary might do more like uh what a missionary might do going to an unreached people group going to an unreached people group going to an unreached people group somewhere in the 10 40 window or somewhere in the 10 40 window or somewhere in the 10 40 window or whatever whatever whatever i i think there has been a tendency to i i think there has been a tendency to i i think there has been a tendency to say you know i'm going to come into this say you know i'm going to come into this say you know i'm going to come into this city and i'm going to bring city and i'm going to bring city and i'm going to bring my culture to this place and to the my culture to this place and to the my culture to this place and to the degree that that is a kingdom culture degree that that is a kingdom culture degree that that is a kingdom culture that's a healthy thing to the degree that's a healthy thing to the degree that's a healthy thing to the degree that it's a a demographic culture or a that it's a a demographic culture or a that it's a a demographic culture or a geographic culture that can actually be geographic culture that can actually be geographic culture that can actually be a negative thing a negative thing a negative thing and so can we get in these communities and so can we get in these communities and so can we get in these communities wherever we're called to be wherever we're called to be wherever we're called to be and say this is the culture of the and say this is the culture of the and say this is the culture of the community god's called me to community god's called me to community god's called me to and i'm going to embrace that and and and i'm going to embrace that and and and i'm going to embrace that and and bring bring bring bring heaven to that place you know as bring heaven to that place you know as bring heaven to that place you know as it were uh it were uh it were uh but but not assume that i'm gonna change but but not assume that i'm gonna change but but not assume that i'm gonna change the cultural nuances of that place and the cultural nuances of that place and the cultural nuances of that place and so when you speak about so when you speak about so when you speak about you know ethnically diverse or you know ethnically diverse or you know ethnically diverse or generationally diverse or whatever generationally diverse or whatever generationally diverse or whatever i think it's really now more than ever i think it's really now more than ever i think it's really now more than ever it's important to be sensitive to that it's important to be sensitive to that it's important to be sensitive to that uh not only because i think it's uh not only because i think it's uh not only because i think it's effective but because i think the effective but because i think the effective but because i think the uh the the tenemera the tenure of our uh the the tenemera the tenure of our uh the the tenemera the tenure of our societies is directed that way right now societies is directed that way right now societies is directed that way right now everybody's very dialed into that and so everybody's very dialed into that and so everybody's very dialed into that and so i think that's an important thing for i think that's an important thing for i think that's an important thing for church leaders to be paying attention to church leaders to be paying attention to church leaders to be paying attention to yeah so where do you go for influence yeah so where do you go for influence yeah so where do you go for influence like what what are things you're reading like what what are things you're reading like what what are things you're reading or who do you follow or who do you follow or who do you follow yeah um so i'm kind of a

yeah um so i'm kind of a yeah um so i'm kind of a i'm a leadership junkie uh and so i i i'm a leadership junkie uh and so i i i'm a leadership junkie uh and so i i will tend to follow some of the the big will tend to follow some of the the big will tend to follow some of the the big leadership voices leadership voices leadership voices uh john maxwell is a go-to for me and uh john maxwell is a go-to for me and uh john maxwell is a go-to for me and i've been reading his stuff since i was i've been reading his stuff since i was i've been reading his stuff since i was a teenager a teenager a teenager and so i still listen to his podcast and and so i still listen to his podcast and and so i still listen to his podcast and read his books and and just love read his books and and just love read his books and and just love uh the heart that he represents and all uh the heart that he represents and all uh the heart that he represents and all of that uh craig grishell has been a big of that uh craig grishell has been a big of that uh craig grishell has been a big influence on me from a distance i've influence on me from a distance i've influence on me from a distance i've never met him but never met him but never met him but uh listen to him all the time and really uh listen to him all the time and really uh listen to him all the time and really gleaned a lot from him gleaned a lot from him gleaned a lot from him so those are big names you know that so those are big names you know that so those are big names you know that everybody in your audience would know everybody in your audience would know everybody in your audience would know another one for me that maybe is a another one for me that maybe is a another one for me that maybe is a little bit more obscure that people little bit more obscure that people little bit more obscure that people wouldn't know wouldn't know wouldn't know is dr mark rutland uh he's a he leads is dr mark rutland uh he's a he leads is dr mark rutland uh he's a he leads the national institute of christian the national institute of christian the national institute of christian leadership which is a program i went leadership which is a program i went leadership which is a program i went through a number of years ago through a number of years ago through a number of years ago and he was the president of all roberts and he was the president of all roberts and he was the president of all roberts university and southeastern university university and southeastern university university and southeastern university uh so i listened to his podcast and um uh so i listened to his podcast and um uh so i listened to his podcast and um his book he wrote a book a number of his book he wrote a book a number of his book he wrote a book a number of years ago called reap years ago called reap years ago called reap launch and uh probably top five launch and uh probably top five launch and uh probably top five leadership books that i've ever read and leadership books that i've ever read and leadership books that i've ever read and i've probably read it half a dozen times i've probably read it half a dozen times i've probably read it half a dozen times now now now i read it again this spring and had my i read it again this spring and had my i read it again this spring and had my team read it and it really prepared us i team read it and it really prepared us i team read it and it really prepared us i think think think uh for how to relaunch our church this uh for how to relaunch our church this uh for how to relaunch our church this fall and so fall and so fall and so that's uh he's been a big influence and that's uh he's been a big influence and that's uh he's been a big influence and that book has been a big influence that book has been a big influence that book has been a big influence for us uh and i'm always reading stuff for us uh and i'm always reading stuff for us uh and i'm always reading stuff i've always got three or four books i've always got three or four books i've always got three or four books going at any given time so going at any given time so going at any given time so uh yeah i i listen to podcasts when i uh yeah i i listen to podcasts when i uh yeah i i listen to podcasts when i run because it's a great way to kill run because it's a great way to kill run because it's a great way to kill time and time and time and kind of kill two birds with one stone kind of kill two birds with one stone kind of kill two birds with one stone and then uh try to try to read some as and then uh try to try to read some as and then uh try to try to read some as well good well good well good good right on yeah all right well

good right on yeah all right well good right on yeah all right well kind of lastly we as we wind down here kind of lastly we as we wind down here kind of lastly we as we wind down here um you think about reaching younger um you think about reaching younger um you think about reaching younger people people people uh seems to be a bigger kind of uh seems to be a bigger kind of uh seems to be a bigger kind of from this the big sea church type of a from this the big sea church type of a from this the big sea church type of a thing that's going on thing that's going on thing that's going on i think i think you mentioned this i think i think you mentioned this i think i think you mentioned this earlier and i think you're spot on where earlier and i think you're spot on where earlier and i think you're spot on where being able to to connect people with being able to to connect people with being able to to connect people with community because i think that's what community because i think that's what community because i think that's what people people people crave it doesn't matter yeah what age crave it doesn't matter yeah what age crave it doesn't matter yeah what age what color what color what color you if you're a human being you crave you if you're a human being you crave you if you're a human being you crave community yeah community yeah community yeah yeah we're built and wired to be in yeah we're built and wired to be in yeah we're built and wired to be in community sure community sure community sure you know is that something that you you know is that something that you you know is that something that you think is as you try to think is as you try to think is as you try to reach millennials and um engage them reach millennials and um engage them reach millennials and um engage them who are walking away from the church or who are walking away from the church or who are walking away from the church or not even engaging in church not even engaging in church not even engaging in church to begin with is that some of the answer to begin with is that some of the answer to begin with is that some of the answer or or or what do you what's some of your thoughts what do you what's some of your thoughts what do you what's some of your thoughts on that how do you grow younger on that how do you grow younger on that how do you grow younger yeah i think that has to be some of the yeah i think that has to be some of the yeah i think that has to be some of the answer um answer um answer um you know and maybe you know probably you know and maybe you know probably you know and maybe you know probably everybody has a little bit different everybody has a little bit different everybody has a little bit different take on this take on this take on this i i do think millennials want community i i do think millennials want community i i do think millennials want community but i think it's overstated that they but i think it's overstated that they but i think it's overstated that they want it you know want it you know want it you know more so than other other generations and more so than other other generations and more so than other other generations and and you just mentioned i think and you just mentioned i think and you just mentioned i think we all have that need we all have that we all have that need we all have that we all have that need we all have that desire and so i think desire and so i think desire and so i think you know it's less in my mind about like you know it's less in my mind about like you know it's less in my mind about like hey how do we reach this generation hey how do we reach this generation hey how do we reach this generation it's how do we effectively reach human it's how do we effectively reach human it's how do we effectively reach human beings uh because we do beings uh because we do beings uh because we do we do share some of the same things you we do share some of the same things you we do share some of the same things you know irrespective of our uh know irrespective of our uh know irrespective of our uh ethnic background or our uh you know our ethnic background or our uh you know our ethnic background or our uh you know our generation generation generation uh and then certainly one i think this uh and then certainly one i think this uh and then certainly one i think this idea of saying how do we grow younger is idea of saying how do we grow younger is idea of saying how do we grow younger is important important important um i'm convinced and

um i'm convinced and um i'm convinced and you know we'll find out if i'm right but you know we'll find out if i'm right but you know we'll find out if i'm right but but in my mind i but in my mind i but in my mind i in my heart i really think uh you know i in my heart i really think uh you know i in my heart i really think uh you know i think the church can get it wrong think the church can get it wrong think the church can get it wrong if we try to sort of soft pedal if we try to sort of soft pedal if we try to sort of soft pedal what we do and what we believe in an what we do and what we believe in an what we do and what we believe in an effort to make everybody feel good and effort to make everybody feel good and effort to make everybody feel good and feel comfortable feel comfortable feel comfortable i actually think the younger generation i actually think the younger generation i actually think the younger generation is far more able to handle is far more able to handle is far more able to handle opposing viewpoints and challenging opposing viewpoints and challenging opposing viewpoints and challenging concepts concepts concepts more than we give them credit for and so more than we give them credit for and so more than we give them credit for and so what i've done is just dialed into what i've done is just dialed into what i've done is just dialed into saying i'm going to preach saying i'm going to preach saying i'm going to preach i'm going to preach truth and i'm going i'm going to preach truth and i'm going i'm going to preach truth and i'm going to preach it with passion to preach it with passion to preach it with passion knowing that not everybody who who is knowing that not everybody who who is knowing that not everybody who who is there is going to agree with everything there is going to agree with everything there is going to agree with everything but i believe that if i can present it but i believe that if i can present it but i believe that if i can present it with an authentic sense of passion with an authentic sense of passion with an authentic sense of passion and appeal not just to the mind but to and appeal not just to the mind but to and appeal not just to the mind but to the heart that there's something the heart that there's something the heart that there's something attractive about that attractive about that attractive about that and and we know from the scriptures that and and we know from the scriptures that and and we know from the scriptures that the gospel is both attractive and the gospel is both attractive and the gospel is both attractive and offensive depending on kind of where offensive depending on kind of where offensive depending on kind of where you're you're you're where you're sitting and what you're where you're sitting and what you're where you're sitting and what you're hearing and how a different topic hits hearing and how a different topic hits hearing and how a different topic hits you know different people on different you know different people on different you know different people on different days days days but i think to try to soften that in an but i think to try to soften that in an but i think to try to soften that in an attempt to make everybody feel good attempt to make everybody feel good attempt to make everybody feel good can sometimes be a dangerous road to go can sometimes be a dangerous road to go can sometimes be a dangerous road to go down and so down and so down and so we just said look we're going to stay we just said look we're going to stay we just said look we're going to stay steady we're going to preach what we steady we're going to preach what we steady we're going to preach what we know to be true know to be true know to be true with a heart of love with an atmosphere with a heart of love with an atmosphere with a heart of love with an atmosphere of saying we we are we embrace of saying we we are we embrace of saying we we are we embrace people and we love people and we people and we love people and we people and we love people and we genuinely show passion and i think that genuinely show passion and i think that genuinely show passion and i think that works works works for all generations but i particularly for all generations but i particularly for all generations but i particularly think younger people think younger people think younger people are drawn to that i think they want to are drawn to that i think they want to are drawn to that i think they want to see something that's real that's see something that's real that's see something that's real that's authentic authentic authentic and if you can model that in your church and if you can model that in your church and if you can model that in your church and in your ministry i think that's and in your ministry i think that's and in your ministry i think that's important important important uh so that's sort of on the spiritual

uh so that's sort of on the spiritual uh so that's sort of on the spiritual side i think on the practical side side i think on the practical side side i think on the practical side uh what what i think is as much as they uh what what i think is as much as they uh what what i think is as much as they want community i think they want a want community i think they want a want community i think they want a chance to make an impact and make a chance to make an impact and make a chance to make an impact and make a difference difference difference and so what we're trying to do more now and so what we're trying to do more now and so what we're trying to do more now than ever is put than ever is put than ever is put create opportunities for leadership and create opportunities for leadership and create opportunities for leadership and impact impact impact for uh people in the younger generation for uh people in the younger generation for uh people in the younger generation so so so we would um you know at the risk of we would um you know at the risk of we would um you know at the risk of sounding you know sort of age sounding you know sort of age sounding you know sort of age discriminatory or whatever discriminatory or whatever discriminatory or whatever we'd say you know all things being equal we'd say you know all things being equal we'd say you know all things being equal i want to promote younger people into i want to promote younger people into i want to promote younger people into into roles and positions of leadership into roles and positions of leadership into roles and positions of leadership uh whether it's on my staff or in my uh whether it's on my staff or in my uh whether it's on my staff or in my volunteer team or whatever volunteer team or whatever volunteer team or whatever because i think that that's what helps because i think that that's what helps because i think that that's what helps create a culture you know when people create a culture you know when people create a culture you know when people walk in the door they want to see people walk in the door they want to see people walk in the door they want to see people who look like them who look like them who look like them so if you if you are promoting and and so if you if you are promoting and and so if you if you are promoting and and highlighting uh if you're platforming so highlighting uh if you're platforming so highlighting uh if you're platforming so to speak to speak to speak that generation then i think that makes that generation then i think that makes that generation then i think that makes it more attractive to them it more attractive to them it more attractive to them and so uh we we really are a multi-uh and so uh we we really are a multi-uh and so uh we we really are a multi-uh very diverse church multi-ethnic very diverse church multi-ethnic very diverse church multi-ethnic multi-generational multi-generational multi-generational uh but but here's something i think uh but but here's something i think uh but but here's something i think that's interesting in that is um that's interesting in that is um that's interesting in that is um baby boomers love to see younger people baby boomers love to see younger people baby boomers love to see younger people you know you know you know engaged and involved in leading the way engaged and involved in leading the way engaged and involved in leading the way uh but millennials don't necessarily uh but millennials don't necessarily uh but millennials don't necessarily want to see want to see want to see you know everybody at the door or you know everybody at the door or you know everybody at the door or everybody on the stage be a boomer everybody on the stage be a boomer everybody on the stage be a boomer uh and so i think it actually is an uh and so i think it actually is an uh and so i think it actually is an unequal unequal unequal opportunity there uh to say if you if opportunity there uh to say if you if opportunity there uh to say if you if you platform young people you'll draw you platform young people you'll draw you platform young people you'll draw older people too if you platform just older people too if you platform just older people too if you platform just older people you may struggle to reach older people you may struggle to reach older people you may struggle to reach some younger people some younger people some younger people uh and so that's at least in our uh and so that's at least in our uh and so that's at least in our community that's what we found and uh community that's what we found and uh community that's what we found and uh i you know i don't think anybody has the

i you know i don't think anybody has the i you know i don't think anybody has the answer to it but we we think that's answer to it but we we think that's answer to it but we we think that's working at least a little bit working at least a little bit working at least a little bit i would agree with that as i talk to i would agree with that as i talk to i would agree with that as i talk to churches and churches and churches and i'll look at their who's on stage or i'll look at their who's on stage or i'll look at their who's on stage or i'll look at the events they run i'll look at the events they run i'll look at the events they run yeah yeah and i kind of laugh going well yeah yeah and i kind of laugh going well yeah yeah and i kind of laugh going well no wonder you're not growing younger no wonder you're not growing younger no wonder you're not growing younger yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah average age of the pers person on stage average age of the pers person on stage average age of the pers person on stage 60 you know that's 60 you know that's 60 you know that's that's right not going to be attraction that's right not going to be attraction that's right not going to be attraction to younger people to younger people to younger people and you have no events geared towards and you have no events geared towards and you have no events geared towards young families young families young families yeah it's not going to work you know so yeah it's not going to work you know so yeah it's not going to work you know so like huh yeah so like huh yeah so like huh yeah so i think yeah after but you have to kind i think yeah after but you have to kind i think yeah after but you have to kind of go through it to realize we need to of go through it to realize we need to of go through it to realize we need to do something about this do something about this do something about this you know yeah from the elderboard you know yeah from the elderboard you know yeah from the elderboard getting younger you know getting younger you know getting younger you know it's all the way down right it it has to it's all the way down right it it has to it's all the way down right it it has to be it has to go throughout the whole be it has to go throughout the whole be it has to go throughout the whole culture of the church and if you're culture of the church and if you're culture of the church and if you're absolutely so many churches are dying absolutely so many churches are dying absolutely so many churches are dying because they're not understanding that because they're not understanding that because they're not understanding that yeah and i really do think there is a uh yeah and i really do think there is a uh yeah and i really do think there is a uh a burden of leadership on you know a burden of leadership on you know a burden of leadership on you know pastors and people who are in senior pastors and people who are in senior pastors and people who are in senior leadership roles in the church leadership roles in the church leadership roles in the church uh to not only engage and recruit and uh to not only engage and recruit and uh to not only engage and recruit and and platform younger people but to also and platform younger people but to also and platform younger people but to also coach and disciple coach and disciple coach and disciple the older generation as to what their the older generation as to what their the older generation as to what their role in the church needs to be in this role in the church needs to be in this role in the church needs to be in this season season season because they can tend to want to hold on because they can tend to want to hold on because they can tend to want to hold on longer longer longer and some of that's just a product of and some of that's just a product of and some of that's just a product of society now right i mean we have people society now right i mean we have people society now right i mean we have people who are actively in the workforce in who are actively in the workforce in who are actively in the workforce in their mid to late 70s and maybe that their mid to late 70s and maybe that their mid to late 70s and maybe that wouldn't have been the case 25 years ago wouldn't have been the case 25 years ago wouldn't have been the case 25 years ago and so they're engaged in life in in and so they're engaged in life in in and so they're engaged in life in in general in a general in a general in a at a more they're more highly engaged at at a more they're more highly engaged at at a more they're more highly engaged at an older age than they would have been an older age than they would have been an older age than they would have been before before before and so my job as a pastor is to also

and so my job as a pastor is to also and so my job as a pastor is to also coach them to say coach them to say coach them to say hey you're you know at your stage of hey you're you know at your stage of hey you're you know at your stage of life you need to be investing life you need to be investing life you need to be investing in your you know kids and grandkids you in your you know kids and grandkids you in your you know kids and grandkids you know figuratively speaking know figuratively speaking know figuratively speaking this it's not so much about you anymore this it's not so much about you anymore this it's not so much about you anymore it's about you giving away what you have it's about you giving away what you have it's about you giving away what you have into the next generation and helping into the next generation and helping into the next generation and helping them see that them see that them see that they still have value they're not being they still have value they're not being they still have value they're not being sidelined but their value is not so much sidelined but their value is not so much sidelined but their value is not so much maybe being front and center their value maybe being front and center their value maybe being front and center their value is is is mentoring their value is encouraging mentoring their value is encouraging mentoring their value is encouraging their value is modeling things their value is modeling things their value is modeling things for the next generation and if you can for the next generation and if you can for the next generation and if you can help them see that that help them see that that help them see that that that means they still have a place they that means they still have a place they that means they still have a place they have an important role to play have an important role to play have an important role to play uh and i think that's healthy for the uh and i think that's healthy for the uh and i think that's healthy for the church overall it's a healthy legacy church overall it's a healthy legacy church overall it's a healthy legacy they're leaving they're leaving they're leaving yeah yeah yeah absolutely cool yeah yeah yeah absolutely cool yeah yeah yeah absolutely cool well matt thank you so much for your well matt thank you so much for your well matt thank you so much for your insight i appreciate you carving out insight i appreciate you carving out insight i appreciate you carving out some time we learned some things from some time we learned some things from some time we learned some things from you today so i appreciate it you today so i appreciate it you today so i appreciate it yeah absolutely great to be with you yeah absolutely great to be with you yeah absolutely great to be with you jason and uh again just appreciate all jason and uh again just appreciate all jason and uh again just appreciate all that you guys do that you guys do that you guys do and uh thanks for how you help us uh and uh thanks for how you help us uh and uh thanks for how you help us uh reach our community and reach our community and reach our community and get the word out there so appreciate you get the word out there so appreciate you get the word out there so appreciate you yup thank you yup thank you yup thank you such good insight into leading during such good insight into leading during such good insight into leading during a tough situation thanks so much matt as a tough situation thanks so much matt as a tough situation thanks so much matt as i think about i think about i think about victory church and how they have led victory church and how they have led victory church and how they have led through this season i can't help but through this season i can't help but through this season i can't help but stop and thank god for giving us wisdom stop and thank god for giving us wisdom stop and thank god for giving us wisdom and discernment to lead others when it and discernment to lead others when it and discernment to lead others when it seems like the world was crashing in seems like the world was crashing in seems like the world was crashing in you know this is a tough ministry season you know this is a tough ministry season you know this is a tough ministry season and for everyone and and for everyone and and for everyone and and but god is still good and and god's and but god is still good and and god's and but god is still good and and god's church church church will not only stand it's going to thrive

will not only stand it's going to thrive will not only stand it's going to thrive so i encourage you to think differently so i encourage you to think differently so i encourage you to think differently and about how you and about how you and about how you can reach people outside your church now can reach people outside your church now can reach people outside your church now digital tools are a very key element digital tools are a very key element digital tools are a very key element in all this now here at missional in all this now here at missional in all this now here at missional marketing our focus is to help equip you marketing our focus is to help equip you marketing our focus is to help equip you with the tools you need to reach more with the tools you need to reach more with the tools you need to reach more people people people explore our website and take advantage explore our website and take advantage explore our website and take advantage of the free tools that we offer and when of the free tools that we offer and when of the free tools that we offer and when you're ready you're ready you're ready we can talk about how you are pivoting we can talk about how you are pivoting we can talk about how you are pivoting during this during this during this ministry season as well until next time ministry season as well until next time ministry season as well until next time [Music]