Your Church Brand is More Than a Logo | Interview with Mark MacDonald

in today's podcast i am talking with in today's podcast i am talking with mark mark mark mcdonald i'm so excited about this mcdonald i'm so excited about this mcdonald i'm so excited about this podcast that you get to listen to podcast that you get to listen to podcast that you get to listen to mark is a tremendous guy he is a mark is a tremendous guy he is a mark is a tremendous guy he is a husband and a father he's a follower husband and a father he's a follower husband and a father he's a follower jesus jesus jesus and he has helped countless churches and he has helped countless churches and he has helped countless churches understand how to clarify their message understand how to clarify their message understand how to clarify their message and and and what they're known for in fact mark what they're known for in fact mark what they're known for in fact mark wrote a book be known for something i wrote a book be known for something i wrote a book be known for something i highly recommend you buy this book we're highly recommend you buy this book we're highly recommend you buy this book we're going to talk about it in the podcast going to talk about it in the podcast going to talk about it in the podcast but mark's one of those guys that you but mark's one of those guys that you but mark's one of those guys that you just want to just want to just want to tap into his wisdom and learn from him tap into his wisdom and learn from him tap into his wisdom and learn from him and then implement what you've learned and then implement what you've learned and then implement what you've learned into the strategy into the strategy into the strategy of how to reach more people for jesus of how to reach more people for jesus of how to reach more people for jesus here's mark mcdonald well hey mark here's mark mcdonald well hey mark here's mark mcdonald well hey mark thanks so much for uh thanks so much for uh thanks so much for uh joining me today how are you doing i'm joining me today how are you doing i'm joining me today how are you doing i'm doing great i am doing great i am doing great i am so excited to be able to actually be so excited to be able to actually be so excited to be able to actually be talking to jason today talking to jason today talking to jason today so i i think that we have an awful lot so i i think that we have an awful lot so i i think that we have an awful lot in common in common in common and and we could probably make this a and and we could probably make this a and and we could probably make this a very long very long very long episode we could yes yes your background episode we could yes yes your background episode we could yes yes your background is is is is very interesting and um it's kind of is very interesting and um it's kind of is very interesting and um it's kind of parallel to a little bit about what i've parallel to a little bit about what i've parallel to a little bit about what i've been able to do and and because of god been able to do and and because of god been able to do and and because of god we're both focused on him and focused on we're both focused on him and focused on we're both focused on him and focused on serving serving serving his ministry so we are equally yoked my his ministry so we are equally yoked my his ministry so we are equally yoked my friend friend friend that's true and and just so that you that's true and and just so that you that's true and and just so that you know know know i'm on that creative side as well that i'm on that creative side as well that i'm on that creative side as well that when you said my background i was when you said my background i was when you said my background i was thinking

thinking thinking that's right we both have shiplap we that's right we both have shiplap we that's right we both have shiplap we need yes need yes need yes yes i well my wife has good influence on yes i well my wife has good influence on yes i well my wife has good influence on me on as well so me on as well so me on as well so you watch that show in texas a lot nice you watch that show in texas a lot nice you watch that show in texas a lot nice nice well mark share a little bit about nice well mark share a little bit about nice well mark share a little bit about your ministry your ministry your ministry ministry experience um how you ended up ministry experience um how you ended up ministry experience um how you ended up in the church in the church in the church and in marketing and communications and and in marketing and communications and and in marketing and communications and what's that all what's that all what's that all how that all unfold well it's how that all unfold well it's how that all unfold well it's interesting because interesting because interesting because i i mean i'm just this little kid from i i mean i'm just this little kid from i i mean i'm just this little kid from east coast canada east coast canada east coast canada and you know i grew up in a in a fairly and you know i grew up in a in a fairly and you know i grew up in a in a fairly small town small town small town in in new brunswick and uh in in new brunswick and uh in in new brunswick and uh um i you know i i graduated from college um i you know i i graduated from college um i you know i i graduated from college with graphic design degree and i decided with graphic design degree and i decided with graphic design degree and i decided that that that i i just wanted to be able to use it any i i just wanted to be able to use it any i i just wanted to be able to use it any way that god way that god way that god wants me to use it and i ended up in an wants me to use it and i ended up in an wants me to use it and i ended up in an in an ad in an ad in an ad agency and kind of made my way to the agency and kind of made my way to the agency and kind of made my way to the top top top of the one of eastern canada's largest of the one of eastern canada's largest of the one of eastern canada's largest ad agencies as senior creative director ad agencies as senior creative director ad agencies as senior creative director and and the entire time that i was kind and and the entire time that i was kind and and the entire time that i was kind of of of you know going up that ladder i kept you know going up that ladder i kept you know going up that ladder i kept thinking so why doesn't the church know thinking so why doesn't the church know thinking so why doesn't the church know this stuff this stuff this stuff and i started to just really ask and i started to just really ask and i started to just really ask god is there a way to use this like god is there a way to use this like god is there a way to use this like how can i use this um how can i use this um how can i use this um and and you know i i i was a singer and and you know i i i was a singer and and you know i i i was a singer so i sang at a lot of churches and and i

so i sang at a lot of churches and and i so i sang at a lot of churches and and i started talking to a lot of pastors and started talking to a lot of pastors and started talking to a lot of pastors and i kept i kept i kept saying so so what do you saying so so what do you saying so so what do you you know what do you do for marketing you know what do you do for marketing you know what do you do for marketing and and like i just like oh my goodness and and like i just like oh my goodness and and like i just like oh my goodness like we're like we're like we're we don't do marketing because we're a we don't do marketing because we're a we don't do marketing because we're a church church church and i the more i read scripture the more and i the more i read scripture the more and i the more i read scripture the more i realized i realized i realized okay well if marketing is just taking a okay well if marketing is just taking a okay well if marketing is just taking a product to product to product to a market you know a group of people a market you know a group of people a market you know a group of people isn't that what we're called to in isn't that what we're called to in isn't that what we're called to in evangelism i mean evangelism i mean evangelism i mean we have the greatest product you know we have the greatest product you know we have the greatest product you know jesus christ the salvation the gospel jesus christ the salvation the gospel jesus christ the salvation the gospel message why can't we take that to to message why can't we take that to to message why can't we take that to to market and do it uh better market and do it uh better market and do it uh better and and so i had the opportunity to move and and so i had the opportunity to move and and so i had the opportunity to move to north carolina set up an agency to north carolina set up an agency to north carolina set up an agency that helped churches and and some that helped churches and and some that helped churches and and some businesses businesses businesses at that time and really started to focus at that time and really started to focus at that time and really started to focus on on on how can i help the church and you know i how can i help the church and you know i how can i help the church and you know i started writing started writing started writing articles wrote i have written articles wrote i have written articles wrote i have written over 800 magazine articles that have over 800 magazine articles that have over 800 magazine articles that have been published been published been published then became the author of be known for then became the author of be known for then became the author of be known for something and something and something and it became a best-selling book it became a best-selling book it became a best-selling book through that one of my clients the through that one of my clients the through that one of my clients the florida baptist convention hired me florida baptist convention hired me florida baptist convention hired me to be a strategic communications to be a strategic communications to be a strategic communications catalyst for their three thousand catalyst for their three thousand catalyst for their three thousand churches churches churches um that you know now i'm a resource um that you know now i'm a resource um that you know now i'm a resource partner with generis partner with generis partner with generis and then i also have be known for and then i also have be known for and then i also have be known for something so i it's kind of like

something so i it's kind of like something so i it's kind of like like i just look back over my life and like i just look back over my life and like i just look back over my life and it's it's been a blur it's it's been a blur it's it's been a blur and i i will do whatever god wants me to and i i will do whatever god wants me to and i i will do whatever god wants me to do but i love what i get to do right now do but i love what i get to do right now do but i love what i get to do right now yeah yeah you've had some tremendous yeah yeah you've had some tremendous yeah yeah you've had some tremendous impact on churches impact on churches impact on churches and uh in a positive way to help them and uh in a positive way to help them and uh in a positive way to help them shape their message shape their message shape their message and so so church branding is one of your and so so church branding is one of your and so so church branding is one of your key competencies key competencies key competencies talking about church branding how do you talking about church branding how do you talking about church branding how do you define a brand define a brand define a brand for church oh my goodness okay for church oh my goodness okay for church oh my goodness okay so wow what a great question so wow what a great question so wow what a great question and and i think i could probably do it and and i think i could probably do it and and i think i could probably do it in one word in one word in one word and it's just focus you know it's really and it's just focus you know it's really and it's just focus you know it's really understanding what um what you understanding what um what you understanding what um what you should be known for and then focusing on should be known for and then focusing on should be known for and then focusing on that that that thread so that you're relevant and thread so that you're relevant and thread so that you're relevant and needed in your audience focus yeah that seems to be a a word focus yeah that seems to be a a word that that that churches have a hard time grasping you churches have a hard time grasping you churches have a hard time grasping you know what know what know what i talk like you i talk to a lot of i talk like you i talk to a lot of i talk like you i talk to a lot of churches and i always get into that churches and i always get into that churches and i always get into that that question that conversation and i that question that conversation and i that question that conversation and i usually ask usually ask usually ask well what does your congregation know well what does your congregation know well what does your congregation know you for you for you for and that's probably different from what and that's probably different from what and that's probably different from what the external the external the external community thinks about you and community thinks about you and community thinks about you and you know when you ask that question you know when you ask that question you know when you ask that question they're like huh they're just they're like huh they're just they're like huh they're just it's almost like they're they they have it's almost like they're they they have it's almost like they're they they have no idea what you're talking about no idea what you're talking about no idea what you're talking about well it's interesting because when i was well it's interesting because when i was well it's interesting because when i was talking to pastors and i got the

talking to pastors and i got the talking to pastors and i got the pushback about marketing pushback about marketing pushback about marketing the question that i realized that i the question that i realized that i the question that i realized that i could ask and they would go could ask and they would go could ask and they would go oh that's good was so what do you think oh that's good was so what do you think oh that's good was so what do you think your community knows you for your community knows you for your community knows you for and and it's interesting because and and it's interesting because and and it's interesting because everyone goes i don't know and and i everyone goes i don't know and and i everyone goes i don't know and and i think that that's think that that's think that that's part of this issue is that part of this issue is that part of this issue is that we don't know what the perception of us we don't know what the perception of us we don't know what the perception of us is is is and and oftentimes it's like if we think and and oftentimes it's like if we think and and oftentimes it's like if we think we know what it is we know what it is we know what it is then we don't want to go oh i know then we don't want to go oh i know then we don't want to go oh i know exactly what i'm known for because then exactly what i'm known for because then exactly what i'm known for because then we we we come across with you know you know come across with you know you know come across with you know you know uh the lack of humility that i think uh the lack of humility that i think uh the lack of humility that i think we're all called to we're all called to we're all called to right and right and i think that right and right and i think that right and right and i think that understanding what people understanding what people understanding what people outside of of who you are how they outside of of who you are how they outside of of who you are how they perceive you perceive you perceive you uh is so critical and if uh is so critical and if uh is so critical and if if you can figure out that perception if you can figure out that perception if you can figure out that perception which i think you can which i think you can which i think you can and that's you know kind of all part of and that's you know kind of all part of and that's you know kind of all part of the process that i like to walk a church the process that i like to walk a church the process that i like to walk a church through is through is through is let's find out what your community let's find out what your community let's find out what your community actually thinks actually thinks actually thinks you are and then why don't we think you are and then why don't we think you are and then why don't we think about about about okay so the people who have have okay so the people who have have okay so the people who have have hands-on experience hands-on experience hands-on experience the people who go to your church on a the people who go to your church on a the people who go to your church on a regular basis what do you think regular basis what do you think regular basis what do you think that they would think your church is that they would think your church is that they would think your church is and and i i find that the lack of and and i i find that the lack of and and i i find that the lack of clarity clarity clarity on that issue alone um

on that issue alone um on that issue alone um is is probably the reason why is is probably the reason why is is probably the reason why you know our communities are divided you know our communities are divided you know our communities are divided into a into a into a third a third a third a third of our third a third a third a third of our third a third a third a third of our communities communities communities have no connection to any church at all have no connection to any church at all have no connection to any church at all and a third and a third and a third who have an idea of what churches choose who have an idea of what churches choose who have an idea of what churches choose not to go to church not to go to church not to go to church and then the third that kind of do go to and then the third that kind of do go to and then the third that kind of do go to church on a church on a church on a regular basis don't know why they go to regular basis don't know why they go to regular basis don't know why they go to church church church yeah yeah that's interesting i i i yeah yeah that's interesting i i i yeah yeah that's interesting i i i whenever i ask that question to a church whenever i ask that question to a church whenever i ask that question to a church what i get i usually i get the feedback what i get i usually i get the feedback what i get i usually i get the feedback i get is i get is i get is well we're known for the church that well we're known for the church that well we're known for the church that goes and serves you know they goes and serves you know they goes and serves you know they and i think they are saying what they and i think they are saying what they and i think they are saying what they think they think they think they want they want to be known for and what want they want to be known for and what want they want to be known for and what they actually believe they're known for they actually believe they're known for they actually believe they're known for but in reality it may be totally but in reality it may be totally but in reality it may be totally different because they've never gotten different because they've never gotten different because they've never gotten an ass like you said an ass like you said an ass like you said well and it's and it's crazy that how well and it's and it's crazy that how well and it's and it's crazy that how many i you know one of the many i you know one of the many i you know one of the one of those crazy things that i get to one of those crazy things that i get to one of those crazy things that i get to do is i you know people pay me to come do is i you know people pay me to come do is i you know people pay me to come and be a mystery visitor for their and be a mystery visitor for their and be a mystery visitor for their church church church and and i'll all often times it's like and and i'll all often times it's like and and i'll all often times it's like okay i don't really need to know okay i don't really need to know okay i don't really need to know too much about you before i arrive too much about you before i arrive too much about you before i arrive because i want to be an because i want to be an because i want to be an outsider and and and outsider and and and outsider and and and almost inevitably our a pastor will say almost inevitably our a pastor will say almost inevitably our a pastor will say oh oh oh you'll just be amazed at how loving we you'll just be amazed at how loving we you'll just be amazed at how loving we are and then i arrive are and then i arrive are and then i arrive and no one talks to me the entire time and no one talks to me the entire time and no one talks to me the entire time i'm there i'm there i'm there i see community i see love happening all

i see community i see love happening all i see community i see love happening all around me around me around me except i don't feel loved when i when i except i don't feel loved when i when i except i don't feel loved when i when i leave leave leave and i think that we oftentimes and i think that we oftentimes and i think that we oftentimes think we know who we are but we really think we know who we are but we really think we know who we are but we really don't know who we are don't know who we are don't know who we are so so yeah i i agree with you so when so so yeah i i agree with you so when so so yeah i i agree with you so when you're helping a church you're helping a church you're helping a church understand their their brand understand their their brand understand their their brand what is one of the biggest obstacles i what is one of the biggest obstacles i what is one of the biggest obstacles i mean you kind of mentioned mean you kind of mentioned mean you kind of mentioned actually asking your internal actually asking your internal actually asking your internal internal audience and your external internal audience and your external internal audience and your external audience kind of figure out what that audience kind of figure out what that audience kind of figure out what that looks like but is looks like but is looks like but is is it is there a misalignment like is it is there a misalignment like is it is there a misalignment like do churches realize oh well we wanted to do churches realize oh well we wanted to do churches realize oh well we wanted to be known as the serving church but be known as the serving church but be known as the serving church but apparently we're not at all like apparently we're not at all like apparently we're not at all like how do you help a church really how do you help a church really how do you help a church really understand their their their focus wow now see and there's there's a big wow now see and there's there's a big uh a big topic that we need to talk uh a big topic that we need to talk uh a big topic that we need to talk about about about because the thing is is that because the thing is is that because the thing is is that we have to effective communication rises we have to effective communication rises we have to effective communication rises and falls on how and falls on how and falls on how well you know your audience now that's well you know your audience now that's well you know your audience now that's that sounds pretty secular that sounds pretty secular that sounds pretty secular jesus takes it and he ramps it up jesus takes it and he ramps it up jesus takes it and he ramps it up he doesn't say i want you to know your he doesn't say i want you to know your he doesn't say i want you to know your audience he says i want you to love your audience he says i want you to love your audience he says i want you to love your audience audience audience and and as a church today and and as a church today and and as a church today we've been planted into a community

we've been planted into a community we've been planted into a community that has an audience all around that has an audience all around that has an audience all around and and oftentimes we became we become and and oftentimes we became we become and and oftentimes we became we become so inward focused so inward focused so inward focused that that our communities don't even that that our communities don't even that that our communities don't even know about us at all know about us at all know about us at all like they're they're just um like they're they're just um like they're they're just um they're they're to a point where they they're they're to a point where they they're they're to a point where they wouldn't necessarily feel loved by the wouldn't necessarily feel loved by the wouldn't necessarily feel loved by the kin kin kin by a church but it's like oh no but if by a church but it's like oh no but if by a church but it's like oh no but if they started coming to our church they started coming to our church they started coming to our church they would feel loved and and it's like they would feel loved and and it's like they would feel loved and and it's like no i don't think that's what we're no i don't think that's what we're no i don't think that's what we're called called called like i think we're called to love the like i think we're called to love the like i think we're called to love the people in our church but i think we're people in our church but i think we're people in our church but i think we're called to love our communities called to love our communities called to love our communities to a point where they actually can they to a point where they actually can they to a point where they actually can they can can can feel that love it's interesting because feel that love it's interesting because feel that love it's interesting because uh uh uh you know gary chapman wrote the the you know gary chapman wrote the the you know gary chapman wrote the the forward to my to my book forward to my to my book forward to my to my book gary chapman the five love language the gary chapman the five love language the gary chapman the five love language the guy who's known guy who's known guy who's known for being the five love language guru for being the five love language guru for being the five love language guru um and and what's so fascinating about um and and what's so fascinating about um and and what's so fascinating about it is that it is that it is that you know gary writes that you know you know gary writes that you know you know gary writes that you know certain people feel love a certain way certain people feel love a certain way certain people feel love a certain way and if you're not loving them that way and if you're not loving them that way and if you're not loving them that way they won't feel loved so they won't feel loved so they won't feel loved so why would you even love them that way why would you even love them that way why would you even love them that way like love them the way that they will like love them the way that they will like love them the way that they will receive it as love receive it as love receive it as love and in the same sense you know as and in the same sense you know as and in the same sense you know as communicators communicators communicators we need to figure out how do we we need to figure out how do we we need to figure out how do we how do we communicate so that people how do we communicate so that people how do we communicate so that people receive it receive it receive it and most of our churches today um and most of our churches today um and most of our churches today um aren't focused in the way that we

aren't focused in the way that we aren't focused in the way that we deliver our communications deliver our communications deliver our communications so all all that happens is that we just so all all that happens is that we just so all all that happens is that we just create more noise create more noise create more noise and there's so much noise out there and there's so much noise out there and there's so much noise out there already that the biggest already that the biggest already that the biggest obstacle probably to the church today is obstacle probably to the church today is obstacle probably to the church today is the noise the noise the noise that's all around them that they're not that's all around them that they're not that's all around them that they're not creating but they just creating but they just creating but they just add to the noise and in order for us to add to the noise and in order for us to add to the noise and in order for us to have have have some uh you know possibility some uh you know possibility some uh you know possibility of of survival in our world today we of of survival in our world today we of of survival in our world today we have to know have to know have to know what we what we listen to and what we what we what we listen to and what we what we what we listen to and what we ignore ignore ignore so so we have an ignore switch so so we have an ignore switch so so we have an ignore switch so it's like if it doesn't feel like so it's like if it doesn't feel like so it's like if it doesn't feel like it's something for me i just ignore it it's something for me i just ignore it it's something for me i just ignore it and and the problem is that the church and and the problem is that the church and and the problem is that the church community over communicates so that community over communicates so that community over communicates so that um it just creates more noise and then um it just creates more noise and then um it just creates more noise and then everyone just starts to ignore it everyone just starts to ignore it everyone just starts to ignore it and that most pastors will know exactly and that most pastors will know exactly and that most pastors will know exactly what i'm talking about because what i'm talking about because what i'm talking about because at the end of a service where you know at the end of a service where you know at the end of a service where you know the pastor thinks that he has the pastor thinks that he has the pastor thinks that he has communicated it extremely well that communicated it extremely well that communicated it extremely well that there is a special event happening this there is a special event happening this there is a special event happening this coming week coming week coming week that somebody on the way out of the door that somebody on the way out of the door that somebody on the way out of the door shakes his hand and says shakes his hand and says shakes his hand and says how come you never talk about the how come you never talk about the how come you never talk about the special event that's coming up special event that's coming up special event that's coming up and he's thinking i just did and he's thinking i just did and he's thinking i just did i just did it and but the problem is i just did it and but the problem is i just did it and but the problem is is that the more you talk because you is that the more you talk because you is that the more you talk because you know people are only half listening know people are only half listening know people are only half listening so the church has surprisingly figured so the church has surprisingly figured so the church has surprisingly figured that out that out that out and so if they're only half listening

and so if they're only half listening and so if they're only half listening they talk twice as much they talk twice as much they talk twice as much and and what they think is a solution and and what they think is a solution and and what they think is a solution has actually become part of the problem has actually become part of the problem has actually become part of the problem we need to figure out how do we talk we need to figure out how do we talk we need to figure out how do we talk less so that less so that less so that people will listen more wow people will listen more wow people will listen more wow and that's a hard thing to do because and that's a hard thing to do because and that's a hard thing to do because sometimes i sometimes i sometimes i well when i worked in my church it was well when i worked in my church it was well when i worked in my church it was like like like if you weren't doing more you weren't if you weren't doing more you weren't if you weren't doing more you weren't doing your job doing your job doing your job and you fall into that trap and so many and you fall into that trap and so many and you fall into that trap and so many churches these days still do that churches these days still do that churches these days still do that and they fall into this trap and you and they fall into this trap and you and they fall into this trap and you know you start looking at the laundry know you start looking at the laundry know you start looking at the laundry list of stuff that they have to get done list of stuff that they have to get done list of stuff that they have to get done and it's like you know you're checking and it's like you know you're checking and it's like you know you're checking boxes if if that's what god's calling boxes if if that's what god's calling boxes if if that's what god's calling you to do check boxes you're doing a you to do check boxes you're doing a you to do check boxes you're doing a great job great job great job but if you're actually calling you to but if you're actually calling you to but if you're actually calling you to reach people and connect with people reach people and connect with people reach people and connect with people maybe we need to rethink what you're maybe we need to rethink what you're maybe we need to rethink what you're you're doing here well you're doing here well you're doing here well if you're communicating and no one's if you're communicating and no one's if you're communicating and no one's listening what's the point listening what's the point listening what's the point what is the point and so we we need to what is the point and so we we need to what is the point and so we we need to figure out figure out figure out how does a community how does a community how does a community or an audience actually listen or an audience actually listen or an audience actually listen and what do they listen to and what what and what do they listen to and what what and what do they listen to and what what i know i know i know and it kind of couples together with you and it kind of couples together with you and it kind of couples together with you know jesus said that know jesus said that know jesus said that you know if you're my disciples if you know if you're my disciples if you know if you're my disciples if you're like if you're christ followers you're like if you're christ followers you're like if you're christ followers you will be known for having love one you will be known for having love one you will be known for having love one towards another yeah well towards another yeah well towards another yeah well part of love is understanding needs part of love is understanding needs part of love is understanding needs concerns and goals concerns and goals concerns and goals and if i can know the needs concerns and and if i can know the needs concerns and and if i can know the needs concerns and goals of my community i can become a goals of my community i can become a goals of my community i can become a solution to the needs and concerns and i

solution to the needs and concerns and i solution to the needs and concerns and i can can can i can help them have a pathway to their i can help them have a pathway to their i can help them have a pathway to their goals goals goals so in some sense as communicators in the so in some sense as communicators in the so in some sense as communicators in the church today church today church today we need to figure out how do we become we need to figure out how do we become we need to figure out how do we become pain experts pain experts pain experts with the things that will with the things that will with the things that will get the attention of our community and get the attention of our community and get the attention of our community and most of those aren't spiritual most of those aren't spiritual most of those aren't spiritual so it's just a matter of of becoming so it's just a matter of of becoming so it's just a matter of of becoming that pain expert so that the community that pain expert so that the community that pain expert so that the community goes goes goes yeah did you just say what my problem is yeah did you just say what my problem is yeah did you just say what my problem is how do you know about my problem how do you know about my problem how do you know about my problem and it's like you know what i know so and it's like you know what i know so and it's like you know what i know so much about your problem but i also know much about your problem but i also know much about your problem but i also know what the solution is what the solution is what the solution is and it doesn't have to be a spiritual and it doesn't have to be a spiritual and it doesn't have to be a spiritual solution solution solution but that engagement that you can get but that engagement that you can get but that engagement that you can get when the community just looks up above when the community just looks up above when the community just looks up above the noise and says the noise and says the noise and says someone has heard me then at that point someone has heard me then at that point someone has heard me then at that point you can start a pathway to talk you can start a pathway to talk you can start a pathway to talk you know what i call make the turn to you know what i call make the turn to you know what i call make the turn to jesus jesus jesus yeah yeah so yeah well said and so it yeah yeah so yeah well said and so it yeah yeah so yeah well said and so it goes back to just goes back to just goes back to just staying focused staying focused and uh staying focused staying focused and uh staying focused staying focused and uh loving people that's uh it's almost loving people that's uh it's almost loving people that's uh it's almost simple simple simple well staying focused though like well staying focused though like well staying focused though like we have to focus on people so we have to we have to focus on people so we have to we have to focus on people so we have to focus on our audiences focus on our audiences focus on our audiences and the pr and the complexity of that is and the pr and the complexity of that is and the pr and the complexity of that is that the church has two audiences you that the church has two audiences you that the church has two audiences you have your internal audience your have your internal audience your have your internal audience your your congregation your external audience your congregation your external audience your congregation your external audience your community your community your community so you have to focus on them focus on so you have to focus on them focus on so you have to focus on them focus on them to a point they them to a point they them to a point they that they know you love them which is

that they know you love them which is that they know you love them which is you know talking about needs concerns you know talking about needs concerns you know talking about needs concerns and goals and goals and goals and then coming up with like there's and then coming up with like there's and then coming up with like there's lots of things that you could lots of things that you could lots of things that you could uh talk about that your your community uh talk about that your your community uh talk about that your your community would engage with would engage with would engage with but it's really focusing down to but it's really focusing down to but it's really focusing down to one umbrella concept that one umbrella concept that one umbrella concept that becomes your brand that you become known becomes your brand that you become known becomes your brand that you become known for that for that for that and that each one of your ministries can and that each one of your ministries can and that each one of your ministries can unite unite unite underneath of that umbrella it it really underneath of that umbrella it it really underneath of that umbrella it it really makes the paradigm shift between makes the paradigm shift between makes the paradigm shift between being a house of brands and being a being a house of brands and being a being a house of brands and being a branded house branded house branded house yeah well said well where does where yeah well said well where does where yeah well said well where does where does digital come into that does digital come into that does digital come into that um you know when you think about all the um you know when you think about all the um you know when you think about all the digital tools how does digital tools how does digital tools how does that play into shaping that brand that play into shaping that brand that play into shaping that brand well first of all thank you missional well first of all thank you missional well first of all thank you missional marketing for marketing for marketing for all you're doing in this world to to get all you're doing in this world to to get all you're doing in this world to to get people to focus on people to focus on people to focus on on digital uh you and i have been on digital uh you and i have been on digital uh you and i have been talking to her blue in the face and all talking to her blue in the face and all talking to her blue in the face and all we needed was a virus we needed was a virus we needed was a virus and every church goes you know we and every church goes you know we and every church goes you know we probably should go more digital probably should go more digital probably should go more digital um and and so i know that um and and so i know that um and and so i know that you and i could probably go off on you and i could probably go off on you and i could probably go off on of course you need digital but the of course you need digital but the of course you need digital but the the i guess that you know the way i look the i guess that you know the way i look the i guess that you know the way i look at it is that there's at it is that there's at it is that there's all kinds of channels of communication

all kinds of channels of communication all kinds of channels of communication it used to be that the center of all of it used to be that the center of all of it used to be that the center of all of our communication as a church our communication as a church our communication as a church was our bulletin you're not a church was our bulletin you're not a church was our bulletin you're not a church unless you have a bulletin unless you have a bulletin unless you have a bulletin and that printed device everyone and that printed device everyone and that printed device everyone turned to it because it was the trusted turned to it because it was the trusted turned to it because it was the trusted source source source yeah and so now people go i don't yeah and so now people go i don't yeah and so now people go i don't need a printed source i mean i don't need a printed source i mean i don't need a printed source i mean i don't like i can still remember growing up and like i can still remember growing up and like i can still remember growing up and my mother saying my mother saying my mother saying like i would be like so what time's the like i would be like so what time's the like i would be like so what time's the youth thing happening youth thing happening youth thing happening and my mother would say i don't know and my mother would say i don't know and my mother would say i don't know find the bulletin so then you'd have to find the bulletin so then you'd have to find the bulletin so then you'd have to go go go find the bulletin well well now we live find the bulletin well well now we live find the bulletin well well now we live in this world where in this world where in this world where everybody reverts back to something everybody reverts back to something everybody reverts back to something digital digital digital and and i think that that digital hub and and i think that that digital hub and and i think that that digital hub mentality mentality mentality of even your print stuff has to point of even your print stuff has to point of even your print stuff has to point to a you know the center of that digital to a you know the center of that digital to a you know the center of that digital hub which is your website hub which is your website hub which is your website and and and what i've often and and and what i've often and and and what i've often found is that we over found is that we over found is that we over hundreds and hundreds of years we got hundreds and hundreds of years we got hundreds and hundreds of years we got our bulletins so that our bulletins so that our bulletins so that you know there were controlled mediums you know there were controlled mediums you know there were controlled mediums of of communication of of communication of of communication and you know whether it's like the and you know whether it's like the and you know whether it's like the bulletin nazi that looks after it bulletin nazi that looks after it bulletin nazi that looks after it that you know how dare you submit that you know how dare you submit that you know how dare you submit something with a typo in it because i something with a typo in it because i something with a typo in it because i look bad and you know all of that stuff look bad and you know all of that stuff look bad and you know all of that stuff like it's very very controlled like it's very very controlled like it's very very controlled and then we created websites and they're and then we created websites and they're and then we created websites and they're just not controlled at all just not controlled at all just not controlled at all you know oftentimes you go to a website

you know oftentimes you go to a website you know oftentimes you go to a website i you know i was just on a very i you know i was just on a very i you know i was just on a very large church website and large church website and large church website and weeks after christmas they still have a weeks after christmas they still have a weeks after christmas they still have a a merry christmas message up on their a merry christmas message up on their a merry christmas message up on their website yeah website yeah website yeah which is like i mean would you put out a which is like i mean would you put out a which is like i mean would you put out a bulletin bulletin bulletin you know weeks after christmas that said you know weeks after christmas that said you know weeks after christmas that said merry christmas on the front of it like merry christmas on the front of it like merry christmas on the front of it like it definitely happened yeah it definitely happened yeah it definitely happened yeah so the thing is we just need to focus on so the thing is we just need to focus on so the thing is we just need to focus on on digital and that on digital and that on digital and that you know the digital world now i think you know the digital world now i think you know the digital world now i think is upon us i think we all is upon us i think we all is upon us i think we all understand you know how critical it is understand you know how critical it is understand you know how critical it is but we we we are mismanaging it right but we we we are mismanaging it right but we we we are mismanaging it right now now now so we need to start taking control of it so we need to start taking control of it so we need to start taking control of it and to me and to me and to me taking control of anything digital taking control of anything digital taking control of anything digital starts with the content starts with the content starts with the content how do you how do you focus on something how do you how do you focus on something how do you how do you focus on something so that so that so that all of your content comes underneath all of your content comes underneath all of your content comes underneath this the the big umbrella brand of your this the the big umbrella brand of your this the the big umbrella brand of your church church church i couldn't agree more you know and it's i couldn't agree more you know and it's i couldn't agree more you know and it's what's ironic as churches are what's ironic as churches are what's ironic as churches are are creating content maybe now more than are creating content maybe now more than are creating content maybe now more than ever ever ever but the way that they're putting that in but the way that they're putting that in but the way that they're putting that in using that using that using that on digital tools or digital platforms on digital tools or digital platforms on digital tools or digital platforms they're they're they're almost like they're they're they're almost like they're they're they're almost like they're they're not doing that they're they're they're not doing that they're they're they're not doing that they're not doing it accurately not doing it accurately not doing it accurately certainly that's what we like to teach certainly that's what we like to teach certainly that's what we like to teach is we just want to inform you is we just want to inform you is we just want to inform you how to do that so that others can find how to do that so that others can find how to do that so that others can find you either organically or

you either organically or you either organically or through some kind of a paid campaign or through some kind of a paid campaign or through some kind of a paid campaign or whatnot but the fact that you're whatnot but the fact that you're whatnot but the fact that you're creating this content which is creating this content which is creating this content which is incredible content is not incredible content is not incredible content is not being utilized the right way it'd almost being utilized the right way it'd almost being utilized the right way it'd almost be like if you were to preach but be like if you were to preach but be like if you were to preach but only parts of that message were being only parts of that message were being only parts of that message were being preached you would never allow that to preached you would never allow that to preached you would never allow that to just like the the typo in the bulletin just like the the typo in the bulletin just like the the typo in the bulletin who in the world would print a bolton who in the world would print a bolton who in the world would print a bolton this weekend that says merry christmas this weekend that says merry christmas this weekend that says merry christmas no one or who would publish bulletins no one or who would publish bulletins no one or who would publish bulletins and let's leave them out on a table in and let's leave them out on a table in and let's leave them out on a table in front of our church so that the wind front of our church so that the wind front of our church so that the wind could happen to could happen to could happen to blow them through our community so that blow them through our community so that blow them through our community so that people will know about our church people will know about our church people will know about our church it's like let's just let's just you know it's like let's just let's just you know it's like let's just let's just you know trust the wind to get trust the wind to get trust the wind to get to the right people where in with to the right people where in with to the right people where in with digital it's digital it's digital it's you can control all of that you can control all of that you can control all of that is just a matter of of shifting your is just a matter of of shifting your is just a matter of of shifting your mindset mindset mindset away from bulletin mentality away from bulletin mentality away from bulletin mentality and shifting it to oh my goodness and shifting it to oh my goodness and shifting it to oh my goodness look what a time to be alive that we look what a time to be alive that we look what a time to be alive that we have have have all these tools and we have the greatest all these tools and we have the greatest all these tools and we have the greatest story story story ever told that needs to be told to ever told that needs to be told to ever told that needs to be told to everybody yep no everybody yep no everybody yep no couldn't agree more hey bart blair here couldn't agree more hey bart blair here couldn't agree more hey bart blair here i'm the producer of missional i'm the producer of missional i'm the producer of missional marketing's church growth interviews marketing's church growth interviews marketing's church growth interviews podcast thanks so much for tuning in podcast thanks so much for tuning in podcast thanks so much for tuning in admissional marketing we're passionate admissional marketing we're passionate admissional marketing we're passionate about helping churches reach more people about helping churches reach more people about helping churches reach more people for jesus online for jesus online for jesus online and one of the ways that we do that is and one of the ways that we do that is and one of the ways that we do that is by helping churches acquire more new by helping churches acquire more new by helping churches acquire more new visitors to their website visitors to their website visitors to their website utilizing the google ad grant google utilizing the google ad grant google utilizing the google ad grant google offers qualifying non-profits including offers qualifying non-profits including offers qualifying non-profits including churches churches churches up to ten thousand dollars a month in

up to ten thousand dollars a month in up to ten thousand dollars a month in advertising that means that you advertising that means that you advertising that means that you as a church could be using google as one as a church could be using google as one as a church could be using google as one of your primary digital outreach of your primary digital outreach of your primary digital outreach strategies strategies strategies to communicate the gospel and reach more to communicate the gospel and reach more to communicate the gospel and reach more people in your community people in your community people in your community if you'd like to learn more visit our if you'd like to learn more visit our if you'd like to learn more visit our website admissionalmarketing.com website admissionalmarketing.com website admissionalmarketing.com and click the link at the top of the and click the link at the top of the and click the link at the top of the page that says google grants we'd love page that says google grants we'd love page that says google grants we'd love an opportunity to partner with you an opportunity to partner with you an opportunity to partner with you in your mission to build god's kingdom in your mission to build god's kingdom in your mission to build god's kingdom here on earth well thanks again for here on earth well thanks again for here on earth well thanks again for listening to our podcast listening to our podcast listening to our podcast and now back to the show all right so and now back to the show all right so and now back to the show all right so you you wrote this book you you wrote this book you you wrote this book be known for something tell me a little be known for something tell me a little be known for something tell me a little bit about this book and bit about this book and bit about this book and uh why did you decide to write it and uh why did you decide to write it and uh why did you decide to write it and who should be reading this book well who should be reading this book well who should be reading this book well certainly certainly certainly i think every pastor needs to read this i think every pastor needs to read this i think every pastor needs to read this book book book um you know if if um you know if if um you know if if somebody if a pastor really truly wants somebody if a pastor really truly wants somebody if a pastor really truly wants to reconnect with their to reconnect with their to reconnect with their community especially and their community especially and their community especially and their congregation congregation congregation and just really focus on a thread and just really focus on a thread and just really focus on a thread um you know this is the book for you um you know this is the book for you um you know this is the book for you i mean it will help you talk less i mean it will help you talk less i mean it will help you talk less so that people will listen more um so that people will listen more um so that people will listen more um and and ultimately and and ultimately and and ultimately uh you know the book kind of walks you uh you know the book kind of walks you uh you know the book kind of walks you through a process where you can discover through a process where you can discover through a process where you can discover your thread your thread your thread and every church should have a different and every church should have a different and every church should have a different thread thread thread the more unique your thread is the the more unique your thread is the the more unique your thread is the better better better and and you know it's it's um and and you know it's it's um and and you know it's it's um it's one of those books where i again it's one of those books where i again it's one of those books where i again my uh my english teachers

my uh my english teachers my uh my english teachers growing up would not believe i have growing up would not believe i have growing up would not believe i have written a book uh and it became written a book uh and it became written a book uh and it became a bestseller which is just phenomenal a bestseller which is just phenomenal a bestseller which is just phenomenal and and and and what it is is it's just a really and what it is is it's just a really and what it is is it's just a really easy to read book but it's set up so easy to read book but it's set up so easy to read book but it's set up so that it's easy to lead that it's easy to lead that it's easy to lead so what you want to do is read through so what you want to do is read through so what you want to do is read through the chapters it's a lot of stories the chapters it's a lot of stories the chapters it's a lot of stories and and what it does is it just says and and what it does is it just says and and what it does is it just says okay so okay so okay so we all know something about somebody and we all know something about somebody and we all know something about somebody and that that that makes us quickly make decisions to makes us quickly make decisions to makes us quickly make decisions to choose that person to do something for choose that person to do something for choose that person to do something for us us us what if our communities who maybe what if our communities who maybe what if our communities who maybe don't want spiritual teaching at a don't want spiritual teaching at a don't want spiritual teaching at a certain point they will need something certain point they will need something certain point they will need something else else else and if you become known for that and if you become known for that and if you become known for that something else something else something else they'll actually turn and want to listen they'll actually turn and want to listen they'll actually turn and want to listen to you and so to you and so to you and so the the book walks you through um the the book walks you through um the the book walks you through um whether you're a solo pastor or or a whether you're a solo pastor or or a whether you're a solo pastor or or a pastoral team you read through each pastoral team you read through each pastoral team you read through each chapter chapter chapter and everyone goes yes yes of course yes and everyone goes yes yes of course yes and everyone goes yes yes of course yes and then the chapter ends with some and then the chapter ends with some and then the chapter ends with some some really critical questions to ask some really critical questions to ask some really critical questions to ask yourself yourself yourself and so it allows you to kind of conduct and so it allows you to kind of conduct and so it allows you to kind of conduct it as it as it as a you know part of your weekly a you know part of your weekly a you know part of your weekly leadership leadership leadership meeting where you can say so meeting where you can say so meeting where you can say so let's answer these questions about our let's answer these questions about our let's answer these questions about our church and what it'll do is it'll walk church and what it'll do is it'll walk church and what it'll do is it'll walk you through you through you through everything you need to know in order to everything you need to know in order to everything you need to know in order to develop your thread but then the last develop your thread but then the last develop your thread but then the last part becomes part becomes part becomes just highly practical about how to you

just highly practical about how to you just highly practical about how to you know know know once you have your thread how do you once you have your thread how do you once you have your thread how do you communicate how do you create a digital communicate how do you create a digital communicate how do you create a digital hub how do you tier your ministries hub how do you tier your ministries hub how do you tier your ministries how do you make sure everyone doesn't how do you make sure everyone doesn't how do you make sure everyone doesn't have the loudest voice have the loudest voice have the loudest voice and stop the competition within your and stop the competition within your and stop the competition within your church so that certain church so that certain church so that certain voices rise to the top yeah okay so so voices rise to the top yeah okay so so voices rise to the top yeah okay so so smaller churches yeah lead pastors you smaller churches yeah lead pastors you smaller churches yeah lead pastors you guys should read this book guys should read this book guys should read this book and and buy a few extra copies for your and and buy a few extra copies for your and and buy a few extra copies for your other your other your other your your key leadership team uh if you're your key leadership team uh if you're your key leadership team uh if you're the communication director out there in the communication director out there in the communication director out there in a mega church like i served in how do i a mega church like i served in how do i a mega church like i served in how do i how do i introduce or explain to my my how do i introduce or explain to my my how do i introduce or explain to my my boss boss boss uh why he or she should be reading this uh why he or she should be reading this uh why he or she should be reading this book book book yeah it's and it's so interesting yeah it's and it's so interesting yeah it's and it's so interesting because um because um because um i get to work with a lot of larger i get to work with a lot of larger i get to work with a lot of larger churches churches churches larger churches need more focus larger churches need more focus larger churches need more focus than even the smaller church most than even the smaller church most than even the smaller church most smaller churches smaller churches smaller churches have to focus because of the you know have to focus because of the you know have to focus because of the you know the the limited staff that they have the the limited staff that they have the the limited staff that they have right but a larger church right but a larger church right but a larger church oftentimes just chases squirrels and oftentimes just chases squirrels and oftentimes just chases squirrels and it's it's it's in its uh in its uh in its uh following those scattered paths that following those scattered paths that following those scattered paths that just add just add just add so much noise to the church so much noise to the church so much noise to the church and and what ends up happening is that and and what ends up happening is that and and what ends up happening is that you you you you you you end up just you know a lot of end up just you know a lot of end up just you know a lot of senior pastors of large churches have senior pastors of large churches have senior pastors of large churches have created so much created so much created so much noise that even their own staff don't

noise that even their own staff don't noise that even their own staff don't know what what's going on and then we know what what's going on and then we know what what's going on and then we all shake our heads wondering all shake our heads wondering all shake our heads wondering why the people in the pews don't know why the people in the pews don't know why the people in the pews don't know what's going on what's going on what's going on so it really is it's a book that so it really is it's a book that so it really is it's a book that will just help you take a step back and will just help you take a step back and will just help you take a step back and focus on focus on focus on the right things in order to make sure the right things in order to make sure the right things in order to make sure that you're speaking less that you're speaking less that you're speaking less so that they'll listen more yeah okay so that they'll listen more yeah okay so that they'll listen more yeah okay okay okay okay great advice and i feel like you're just great advice and i feel like you're just great advice and i feel like you're just looking through this book and reading looking through this book and reading looking through this book and reading through it through it through it it it absolutely has a great message for it it absolutely has a great message for it it absolutely has a great message for for anybody in the church for anybody in the church for anybody in the church that serves in some capacity um and i that serves in some capacity um and i that serves in some capacity um and i i agree with you there's so much noise i agree with you there's so much noise i agree with you there's so much noise being being being shared it seems like the larger the shared it seems like the larger the shared it seems like the larger the bigger church it's all it's more about bigger church it's all it's more about bigger church it's all it's more about how do we grow more campuses because how do we grow more campuses because how do we grow more campuses because we're going to go to the people we're going to go to the people we're going to go to the people great yes yes but great yes yes but great yes yes but then you launch that campus and there's then you launch that campus and there's then you launch that campus and there's just more noise over there now there's just more noise over there now there's just more noise over there now there's more noise over here and more noise over here and more noise over here and you know you have that multi-campus you know you have that multi-campus you know you have that multi-campus noise effect going on noise effect going on noise effect going on well and in some sense you know people well and in some sense you know people well and in some sense you know people always are asking me always are asking me always are asking me um so what's the thread of this large um so what's the thread of this large um so what's the thread of this large campus well campus well campus well usually the thread is the celebrity usually the thread is the celebrity usually the thread is the celebrity pastor who's in charge of it pastor who's in charge of it pastor who's in charge of it so so everything's about that person so so everything's about that person so so everything's about that person and that's where we we run into a and that's where we we run into a and that's where we we run into a problem if that large person has a moral problem if that large person has a moral problem if that large person has a moral failure or failure or failure or or leaves the church or retires it's or leaves the church or retires it's or leaves the church or retires it's hard to pass the torch because the hard to pass the torch because the hard to pass the torch because the church has just become known for that church has just become known for that church has just become known for that large person large person large person and and we need to figure out know

and and we need to figure out know and and we need to figure out know based upon audience what should we be based upon audience what should we be based upon audience what should we be known for known for known for and get the celebrity pastor or the you and get the celebrity pastor or the you and get the celebrity pastor or the you know the pastor over know the pastor over know the pastor over or over the multitude of churches or over the multitude of churches or over the multitude of churches uh get them to focus on that thread uh get them to focus on that thread uh get them to focus on that thread so that the torch can be passed and so that the torch can be passed and so that the torch can be passed and you're just passing the torch over to you're just passing the torch over to you're just passing the torch over to somebody else who somebody else who somebody else who who knows and loves that threat as well who knows and loves that threat as well who knows and loves that threat as well well said well where do you find well said well where do you find well said well where do you find inspiration inspiration inspiration what what books or are you reading or what what books or are you reading or what what books or are you reading or um podcasts that you listen to give us a um podcasts that you listen to give us a um podcasts that you listen to give us a little glimpse into that little glimpse into that little glimpse into that oh my goodness so again what a time to oh my goodness so again what a time to oh my goodness so again what a time to be alive be alive be alive i i mean the the ability it used to be i i mean the the ability it used to be i i mean the the ability it used to be you know you would buy a book and and you know you would buy a book and and you know you would buy a book and and until you go back to the bookstore you until you go back to the bookstore you until you go back to the bookstore you wouldn't know about another book and now wouldn't know about another book and now wouldn't know about another book and now we're just we know about so many things we're just we know about so many things we're just we know about so many things and podcasts and podcasts and podcasts i mean i get to follow just like you i mean i get to follow just like you i mean i get to follow just like you all get to follow a ton of people like all get to follow a ton of people like all get to follow a ton of people like phil phil phil cook and donald miller with story brand cook and donald miller with story brand cook and donald miller with story brand i mean that's just i mean that's just i mean that's just fascinating stuff in some sense fascinating stuff in some sense fascinating stuff in some sense storybrand storybrand storybrand is be known for something except that he is be known for something except that he is be known for something except that he makes more money off of his makes more money off of his makes more money off of his brand than i do but but it's you know brand than i do but but it's you know brand than i do but but it's you know we need to figure out how do we focus on we need to figure out how do we focus on we need to figure out how do we focus on the right story and then how do we tell the right story and then how do we tell the right story and then how do we tell that story properly that story properly that story properly i mean things uh people like bob iger i mean things uh people like bob iger i mean things uh people like bob iger from from from disney past uh seth godin disney past uh seth godin disney past uh seth godin um i mean there there are just so

um i mean there there are just so um i mean there there are just so many people out there talking about many people out there talking about many people out there talking about this and you probably heard i kind of this and you probably heard i kind of this and you probably heard i kind of concentrate a little bit on that secular concentrate a little bit on that secular concentrate a little bit on that secular side side side um mainly because um mainly because um mainly because um there's there's just an awful lot of um there's there's just an awful lot of um there's there's just an awful lot of thought power behind what's happening on thought power behind what's happening on thought power behind what's happening on the secular side and i like to take the secular side and i like to take the secular side and i like to take that and and help me understand it so that and and help me understand it so that and and help me understand it so that i can evangelize that i can evangelize that i can evangelize more um and then you know like just more um and then you know like just more um and then you know like just on linkedin and instagram and twitter on linkedin and instagram and twitter on linkedin and instagram and twitter and facebook like there's just and facebook like there's just and facebook like there's just so much stuff and then now i mean i've so much stuff and then now i mean i've so much stuff and then now i mean i've just been introduced to missional just been introduced to missional just been introduced to missional marketing podcast marketing podcast marketing podcast everybody should be watching and everybody should be watching and everybody should be watching and listening to you guys listening to you guys listening to you guys um there's just an awful lot of really um there's just an awful lot of really um there's just an awful lot of really good voices that are out there good voices that are out there good voices that are out there that that should be listened to yeah yep that that should be listened to yeah yep that that should be listened to yeah yep well so if people want to get a oh go well so if people want to get a oh go well so if people want to get a oh go ahead sorry ahead sorry ahead sorry well and like and and this you know well and like and and this you know well and like and and this you know because of you know the way i because of you know the way i because of you know the way i concentrate on the secular side concentrate on the secular side concentrate on the secular side i'm also trying just you know on the i'm also trying just you know on the i'm also trying just you know on the personal side personal side personal side of studying jesus and studying of studying jesus and studying of studying jesus and studying uh how did how did he do story branding uh how did how did he do story branding uh how did how did he do story branding how did he do be known for something and how did he do be known for something and how did he do be known for something and how did how did how did he uh masterfully use he uh masterfully use he uh masterfully use threads and like things like you know threads and like things like you know threads and like things like you know the woman at the well the woman at the well the woman at the well in john 4 you know he could have engaged in john 4 you know he could have engaged in john 4 you know he could have engaged with her on with her on with her on so many different topics and yet he so many different topics and yet he so many different topics and yet he talks to her about

talks to her about talks to her about water like which is her greatest need water like which is her greatest need water like which is her greatest need and then you know he makes the turn and and then you know he makes the turn and and then you know he makes the turn and says so says so says so what if i could give you water you never what if i could give you water you never what if i could give you water you never thirst again and she goes thirst again and she goes thirst again and she goes like yeah tell me about that where if like yeah tell me about that where if like yeah tell me about that where if you would have started with that you would have started with that you would have started with that she'd be like yeah whatever and and like she'd be like yeah whatever and and like she'd be like yeah whatever and and like even even even you know just in in john 13 when jesus you know just in in john 13 when jesus you know just in in john 13 when jesus says that we're says that we're says that we're supposed to be known for love like all supposed to be known for love like all supposed to be known for love like all of those threads that of those threads that of those threads that that connected everything that he that connected everything that he that connected everything that he said to people i think our church just said to people i think our church just said to people i think our church just needs to figure out how do we connect needs to figure out how do we connect needs to figure out how do we connect better with our our communities better with our our communities better with our our communities so that we can jump on the growth of our so that we can jump on the growth of our so that we can jump on the growth of our communities communities communities when most of our churches are not when most of our churches are not when most of our churches are not growing growing growing wow yeah well said well wow yeah well said well wow yeah well said well if if people want to get a hold of you if if people want to get a hold of you if if people want to get a hold of you if they you know they have questions if they you know they have questions if they you know they have questions how can they do that well how can they do that well how can they do that well if you want to get my weekly email if you want to get my weekly email if you want to get my weekly email be known for something.com is my is my be known for something.com is my is my be known for something.com is my is my website but be known for something.com website but be known for something.com website but be known for something.com subscribe we'll get you on to our our subscribe we'll get you on to our our subscribe we'll get you on to our our email list email list email list and then most of the social media and then most of the social media and then most of the social media channels either look for you know for channels either look for you know for channels either look for you know for something or something or something or most of my personal uh channels are all most of my personal uh channels are all most of my personal uh channels are all under at mark mack 10 23 under at mark mack 10 23 under at mark mack 10 23 and 10 23 is my birthday so that's the and 10 23 is my birthday so that's the and 10 23 is my birthday so that's the way you can remember my birthday but way you can remember my birthday but way you can remember my birthday but it's mark mack 10 23.

it's mark mack 10 23. it's mark mack 10 23. all right i have an october birthday so all right i have an october birthday so all right i have an october birthday so that's awesome that's awesome that's awesome we're a lot of things in common here we're a lot of things in common here we're a lot of things in common here don't we we do two boys don't we we do two boys don't we we do two boys you have two boys right yeah yeah i'm you have two boys right yeah yeah i'm you have two boys right yeah yeah i'm not quite the empty nester as you are not quite the empty nester as you are not quite the empty nester as you are but but but i'm not too far from it so okay thanks i'm not too far from it so okay thanks i'm not too far from it so okay thanks for pointing out you're young for pointing out you're young for pointing out you're young i'm old i don't want to say about how i'm old i don't want to say about how i'm old i don't want to say about how how many years just you know how many years just you know how many years just you know just kind of get that in there that's just kind of get that in there that's just kind of get that in there that's right about a decade right about a decade right about a decade oh yeah yeah well mark thank you for oh yeah yeah well mark thank you for oh yeah yeah well mark thank you for your insight i praise your insight i praise your insight i praise god for giving uh you god for giving uh you god for giving uh you his wisdom on and being able to put his wisdom on and being able to put his wisdom on and being able to put together not only this book but just for together not only this book but just for together not only this book but just for the the the for the work you're doing um and the for the work you're doing um and the for the work you're doing um and the connections you're have connections you're have connections you're have you have to help churches get better and you have to help churches get better and you have to help churches get better and that's all we're that's all we're that's all we're that's what you and i are both called to that's what you and i are both called to that's what you and i are both called to do we just want to help expand the do we just want to help expand the do we just want to help expand the kingdom kingdom kingdom introduce more people to jesus and introduce more people to jesus and introduce more people to jesus and through his local church through his local church through his local church that's how it's going to get done and so that's how it's going to get done and so that's how it's going to get done and so thank you for your thank you for your thank you for your your uh pouring into this you're using your uh pouring into this you're using your uh pouring into this you're using the those god-given the those god-given the those god-given talents and gifts to uh help expand the talents and gifts to uh help expand the talents and gifts to uh help expand the kingdom kingdom kingdom thank you and likewise thank you for all thank you and likewise thank you for all thank you and likewise thank you for all you're doing as well you're doing as well you're doing as well yeah like yeah thank you all right well yeah like yeah thank you all right well yeah like yeah thank you all right well take care we'll talk to you soon take care we'll talk to you soon take care we'll talk to you soon well that was a tremendous podcast mark well that was a tremendous podcast mark well that was a tremendous podcast mark thank you so much thank you so much thank you so much for your insight and your wisdom for your insight and your wisdom for your insight and your wisdom you're absolutely right every church you're absolutely right every church you're absolutely right every church every church leader should understand every church leader should understand every church leader should understand what his or her church is about what what his or her church is about what what his or her church is about what that thread looks like that thread looks like that thread looks like so church here's the takeaway so church here's the takeaway so church here's the takeaway go buy the book go buy copies of this

go buy the book go buy copies of this go buy the book go buy copies of this book book book it's an easy read spend some time right it's an easy read spend some time right it's an easy read spend some time right now now now reading it and understanding what it is reading it and understanding what it is reading it and understanding what it is your church should be known for your church should be known for your church should be known for you know there's probably maybe a you know there's probably maybe a you know there's probably maybe a disconnect between what you disconnect between what you disconnect between what you think you're known for versus what think you're known for versus what think you're known for versus what people think people think people think and know of you right and so make sure and know of you right and so make sure and know of you right and so make sure that perception is reality that perception is reality that perception is reality that's the first thing i would do the that's the first thing i would do the that's the first thing i would do the second thing i would do is i'd encourage second thing i would do is i'd encourage second thing i would do is i'd encourage you to go deeper you to go deeper you to go deeper understand once you read this book don't understand once you read this book don't understand once you read this book don't stop stop stop there now it's time to roll up the there now it's time to roll up the there now it's time to roll up the sleeves and get to work to make the sleeves and get to work to make the sleeves and get to work to make the change that's necessary inside your change that's necessary inside your change that's necessary inside your church church church we're here to serve you emotional we're here to serve you emotional we're here to serve you emotional marketing if we can help marketing if we can help marketing if we can help in any part of this or any along the way in any part of this or any along the way in any part of this or any along the way we're here to serve we're here to help we're here to serve we're here to help we're here to serve we're here to help you you clarify that message and you you clarify that message and you you clarify that message and certainly i'd encourage you to go reach certainly i'd encourage you to go reach certainly i'd encourage you to go reach out to mark because he's the expert out to mark because he's the expert out to mark because he's the expert but we can certainly talk about what but we can certainly talk about what but we can certainly talk about what that looks like and and that looks like and and that looks like and and at the end of the day mark would agree at the end of the day mark would agree at the end of the day mark would agree with me that we want to help you with me that we want to help you with me that we want to help you win this is all about jesus it's all win this is all about jesus it's all win this is all about jesus it's all about pointing people to him about pointing people to him about pointing people to him and helping them in their time of need and helping them in their time of need and helping them in their time of need wherever wherever wherever and whatever that is and so mark i and whatever that is and so mark i and whatever that is and so mark i appreciate you appreciate you appreciate you god bless you guys thanks so much and god bless you guys thanks so much and god bless you guys thanks so much and here's to a here's to a here's to a happy happy 2021.