Keys to Building an Effective Online Ministry | Alan George

um one of the questions that i get asked um one of the questions that i get asked all the time is alan if we have a really all the time is alan if we have a really all the time is alan if we have a really good online ministry wouldn't that lead good online ministry wouldn't that lead good online ministry wouldn't that lead to less people showing up in our to less people showing up in our to less people showing up in our buildings i can tell you from personal buildings i can tell you from personal buildings i can tell you from personal experience at live streams that is not experience at live streams that is not experience at live streams that is not the case the case the case our our online our our online our our online engagement has grown and over the years engagement has grown and over the years engagement has grown and over the years our physical locations have grown our physical locations have grown our physical locations have grown ridiculously as well ridiculously as well ridiculously as well so i think the better experience you so i think the better experience you so i think the better experience you have online actually leads especially if have online actually leads especially if have online actually leads especially if people live near one of your physical people live near one of your physical people live near one of your physical locations that leads to them going man locations that leads to them going man locations that leads to them going man this is so good online i can't wait to this is so good online i can't wait to this is so good online i can't wait to see what it looks like in person see what it looks like in person see what it looks like in person hey welcome to season two episode five hey welcome to season two episode five hey welcome to season two episode five of missional marketing church growth of missional marketing church growth of missional marketing church growth interviews podcast i'm bart blair joined interviews podcast i'm bart blair joined interviews podcast i'm bart blair joined always by the chief executive officer of always by the chief executive officer of always by the chief executive officer of missional marketing jason hamrock missional marketing jason hamrock missional marketing jason hamrock hi bart how's it how's it going today hi bart how's it how's it going today hi bart how's it how's it going today i'm doing very well you like that chief i'm doing very well you like that chief i'm doing very well you like that chief executive officer yeah sure it sounds it executive officer yeah sure it sounds it executive officer yeah sure it sounds it sounds pretty fancy it is a very fancy sounds pretty fancy it is a very fancy sounds pretty fancy it is a very fancy job title job title job title well you know all of us at mission well you know all of us at mission well you know all of us at mission market i like to think this is we all market i like to think this is we all market i like to think this is we all love our jobs i mean it's really if you love our jobs i mean it's really if you love our jobs i mean it's really if you if you love your job is it really a job if you love your job is it really a job if you love your job is it really a job um i would love to do uh you know work um i would love to do uh you know work um i would love to do uh you know work with churches and talk with churches all with churches and talk with churches all with churches and talk with churches all day long and day long and day long and we've got a great team a lot of great we've got a great team a lot of great we've got a great team a lot of great coaches and you're one of them so coaches and you're one of them so coaches and you're one of them so yeah yeah yeah well every company can only have one well every company can only have one well every company can only have one chief executive officer the reason chief executive officer the reason chief executive officer the reason they're okay so the reason that i'm the they're okay so the reason that i'm the they're okay so the reason that i'm the reason i'm kind of giving you a hard reason i'm kind of giving you a hard reason i'm kind of giving you a hard time about your job title which you you time about your job title which you you time about your job title which you you you humbly wear the title ceo for our

you humbly wear the title ceo for our you humbly wear the title ceo for our team is that our interview today with team is that our interview today with team is that our interview today with alan george one of the things we talked alan george one of the things we talked alan george one of the things we talked about was his job title he doesn't about was his job title he doesn't about was his job title he doesn't really have one uh he's had a great job really have one uh he's had a great job really have one uh he's had a great job title and a great job and uh was very title and a great job and uh was very title and a great job and uh was very gracious to give us some time to be on gracious to give us some time to be on gracious to give us some time to be on our podcast but why don't you give a our podcast but why don't you give a our podcast but why don't you give a little intro to alan george and what we little intro to alan george and what we little intro to alan george and what we talked about talked about talked about so alan um he's gonna kind of explain so alan um he's gonna kind of explain so alan um he's gonna kind of explain his whole you know his whole career a his whole you know his whole career a his whole you know his whole career a fascinating career uh but he spent about fascinating career uh but he spent about fascinating career uh but he spent about what 10 or 11 years at life church what 10 or 11 years at life church what 10 or 11 years at life church there in oklahoma he was the online there in oklahoma he was the online there in oklahoma he was the online pastor so he was in charge of getting pastor so he was in charge of getting pastor so he was in charge of getting that thing up and running that thing up and running that thing up and running and uh wow has god really worked through and uh wow has god really worked through and uh wow has god really worked through allen and and it's this interview uh allen and and it's this interview uh allen and and it's this interview uh you're you're gonna be glued to it you're you're gonna be glued to it you're you're gonna be glued to it because he talks because he talks because he talks really specifically about the difference really specifically about the difference really specifically about the difference between between between you know using online to have your you know using online to have your you know using online to have your church services versus discipleship and church services versus discipleship and church services versus discipleship and how do you actually can you engage and how do you actually can you engage and how do you actually can you engage and can you connect with people can you connect with people can you connect with people online online online it's one thing that it's one thing that it's one thing that you know you're connect with people face you know you're connect with people face you know you're connect with people face to face you can go have coffee sit down to face you can go have coffee sit down to face you can go have coffee sit down shake their hand and give them a hug but shake their hand and give them a hug but shake their hand and give them a hug but when you're doing it online when you're doing it online when you're doing it online can that still happen can that still happen can that still happen you're gonna enjoy you're gonna enjoy you're gonna enjoy his answers his answers his answers yeah absolutely so he doesn't have a job yeah absolutely so he doesn't have a job yeah absolutely so he doesn't have a job title right now uh he shares a little title right now uh he shares a little title right now uh he shares a little bit about what he's up to he's no longer bit about what he's up to he's no longer bit about what he's up to he's no longer on staff at life church although he and on staff at life church although he and on staff at life church although he and his wife are still a part of the life his wife are still a part of the life his wife are still a part of the life church family in fact his wife is still church family in fact his wife is still church family in fact his wife is still on staff at life church and uh he's on staff at life church and uh he's on staff at life church and uh he's doing a lot of different things he's doing a lot of different things he's doing a lot of different things he's going to share a little bit about that going to share a little bit about that going to share a little bit about that in the podcast interview but

in the podcast interview but in the podcast interview but i'm glad to have met alan and have the i'm glad to have met alan and have the i'm glad to have met alan and have the opportunity to call in friend and for opportunity to call in friend and for opportunity to call in friend and for those of you who are our friends on the those of you who are our friends on the those of you who are our friends on the internet and the podcast world if you internet and the podcast world if you internet and the podcast world if you haven't left us up rating a review we'd haven't left us up rating a review we'd haven't left us up rating a review we'd love for you to do that and if you love for you to do that and if you love for you to do that and if you haven't subscribed to the podcast haven't subscribed to the podcast haven't subscribed to the podcast wherever you consume this content you wherever you consume this content you wherever you consume this content you should probably do that so you don't should probably do that so you don't should probably do that so you don't miss it's miss any of our awesome miss it's miss any of our awesome miss it's miss any of our awesome episodes coming up so we have a lot of episodes coming up so we have a lot of episodes coming up so we have a lot of them coming up that are awesome we've them coming up that are awesome we've them coming up that are awesome we've got some really exciting uh guests got some really exciting uh guests got some really exciting uh guests coming to the podcast so man you want to coming to the podcast so man you want to coming to the podcast so man you want to tune into that and go ahead and like us tune into that and go ahead and like us tune into that and go ahead and like us absolutely absolutely it's been a lot of absolutely absolutely it's been a lot of absolutely absolutely it's been a lot of fun um if there's anything that we can fun um if there's anything that we can fun um if there's anything that we can do for you after you've listened to this do for you after you've listened to this do for you after you've listened to this podcast maybe you have some questions or podcast maybe you have some questions or podcast maybe you have some questions or need some help with some of your own need some help with some of your own need some help with some of your own digital stuff make sure you reach out to digital stuff make sure you reach out to digital stuff make sure you reach out to us there will be links in the show notes us there will be links in the show notes us there will be links in the show notes for how you can do that anyway all that for how you can do that anyway all that for how you can do that anyway all that being said uh here's our interview with being said uh here's our interview with being said uh here's our interview with alan george alan george alan george alan george thanks for joining jason and alan george thanks for joining jason and alan george thanks for joining jason and me on the missional marketing podcast me on the missional marketing podcast me on the missional marketing podcast today we're really glad to have you today we're really glad to have you today we're really glad to have you thank you it's an honor to be here with thank you it's an honor to be here with thank you it's an honor to be here with you guys you guys you guys hey alan as we get started uh with all hey alan as we get started uh with all hey alan as we get started uh with all of our podcast episodes when we have a of our podcast episodes when we have a of our podcast episodes when we have a guest on them uh we want to hear their guest on them uh we want to hear their guest on them uh we want to hear their story we want to hear your story and for story we want to hear your story and for story we want to hear your story and for maybe like that one or two people on maybe like that one or two people on maybe like that one or two people on planet earth that didn't hear you tell planet earth that didn't hear you tell planet earth that didn't hear you tell your story on carrie newhave's podcast your story on carrie newhave's podcast your story on carrie newhave's podcast uh why don't you because just about uh why don't you because just about uh why don't you because just about everybody's listening to his why don't everybody's listening to his why don't everybody's listening to his why don't you go ahead and tell us your story so you go ahead and tell us your story so you go ahead and tell us your story so that uh we can kind of lay some some that uh we can kind of lay some some that uh we can kind of lay some some groundwork and framework for the rest of groundwork and framework for the rest of groundwork and framework for the rest of our conversation today yeah thank you our conversation today yeah thank you our conversation today yeah thank you bart thank you jason i um really am bart thank you jason i um really am bart thank you jason i um really am honored and humbled that i get to be in honored and humbled that i get to be in honored and humbled that i get to be in this conversation with you guys um quick

this conversation with you guys um quick this conversation with you guys um quick kind of snapshot of my journey um i'm kind of snapshot of my journey um i'm kind of snapshot of my journey um i'm originally from india but i was born and originally from india but i was born and originally from india but i was born and raised in the middle east raised in the middle east raised in the middle east moved here to the us in 2004 was working moved here to the us in 2004 was working moved here to the us in 2004 was working in corporate um my in corporate um my in corporate um my i come from a christian background my i come from a christian background my i come from a christian background my dad dad dad um probably um probably um probably i'd say when he was like i'd say when he was like i'd say when he was like somewhere in his 40s i think is when he somewhere in his 40s i think is when he somewhere in his 40s i think is when he actually gave his life to christ and he actually gave his life to christ and he actually gave his life to christ and he got into ministry and became a pastor got into ministry and became a pastor got into ministry and became a pastor for years i ran away from god and long for years i ran away from god and long for years i ran away from god and long story short he got grabbed a hold of my story short he got grabbed a hold of my story short he got grabbed a hold of my life and i'm an extreme personality and life and i'm an extreme personality and life and i'm an extreme personality and so when my life was changed with god i so when my life was changed with god i so when my life was changed with god i said god i will do whatever you want you said god i will do whatever you want you said god i will do whatever you want you tell me and i'll do whatever you want tell me and i'll do whatever you want tell me and i'll do whatever you want and he said something to me that i still and he said something to me that i still and he said something to me that i still to this day remember he said i want you to this day remember he said i want you to this day remember he said i want you to go to the world and just tell people to go to the world and just tell people to go to the world and just tell people what i did for you now i'm a logical what i did for you now i'm a logical what i did for you now i'm a logical thinker and so for me i'm thinking thinker and so for me i'm thinking thinker and so for me i'm thinking god you're setting me up for failure god you're setting me up for failure god you're setting me up for failure like how do you go into the world like like how do you go into the world like like how do you go into the world like people spend their entire lifetimes people spend their entire lifetimes people spend their entire lifetimes trying to reach a community or a city or trying to reach a community or a city or trying to reach a community or a city or a town but anyway i thought okay i'm a town but anyway i thought okay i'm a town but anyway i thought okay i'm going to do what i can so i've been going to do what i can so i've been going to do what i can so i've been involved in church and doing all of that involved in church and doing all of that involved in church and doing all of that i come from a marketing sales background i come from a marketing sales background i come from a marketing sales background business background business background business background and i it was um i want to say and i it was um i want to say and i it was um i want to say 2008 2008 2008 we were praying we typically towards the we were praying we typically towards the we were praying we typically towards the end of the year pray as a family god end of the year pray as a family god end of the year pray as a family god what do you have in store for us for what do you have in store for us for what do you have in store for us for next year just to ready our hearts and next year just to ready our hearts and next year just to ready our hearts and we heard god say clearly first to me we heard god say clearly first to me we heard god say clearly first to me saying you trust me enough to quit your saying you trust me enough to quit your saying you trust me enough to quit your job and come work for me and at that

job and come work for me and at that job and come work for me and at that point you know i point you know i point you know i just moved to the u.s we're living the just moved to the u.s we're living the just moved to the u.s we're living the american dream and i was like god i american dream and i was like god i american dream and i was like god i don't i don't know if i want to quit my don't i don't know if i want to quit my don't i don't know if i want to quit my job and come work for you because i've job and come work for you because i've job and come work for you because i've heard you don't pay that well and i need heard you don't pay that well and i need heard you don't pay that well and i need insurance and insurance and insurance and you know we're getting ready to have our you know we're getting ready to have our you know we're getting ready to have our first baby and but anyway uh through a first baby and but anyway uh through a first baby and but anyway uh through a lot of prayer he confirmed with my wife lot of prayer he confirmed with my wife lot of prayer he confirmed with my wife and we took that step of faith and we took that step of faith and we took that step of faith and it was a few years after that that and it was a few years after that that and it was a few years after that that we had the opportunity to join the staff we had the opportunity to join the staff we had the opportunity to join the staff at life church um at life church um at life church um i started at one of our physical i started at one of our physical i started at one of our physical locations locations locations and about six months into it i had the and about six months into it i had the and about six months into it i had the opportunity presented saying hey what do opportunity presented saying hey what do opportunity presented saying hey what do you think about church online and now i you think about church online and now i you think about church online and now i love technology i love you know the love technology i love you know the love technology i love you know the latest gadgets and things like that but latest gadgets and things like that but latest gadgets and things like that but my heart was always face to face my heart was always face to face my heart was always face to face i love the and maybe it was the sales i love the and maybe it was the sales i love the and maybe it was the sales background i just love meeting people background i just love meeting people background i just love meeting people talking to them and and you know getting talking to them and and you know getting talking to them and and you know getting to shake their hand and all that stuff to shake their hand and all that stuff to shake their hand and all that stuff and so when i heard about online i was and so when i heard about online i was and so when i heard about online i was like that just feels cold it feels like that just feels cold it feels like that just feels cold it feels distant distant distant um um um like why would i want to have anything like why would i want to have anything like why would i want to have anything to do with that but again we said okay to do with that but again we said okay to do with that but again we said okay let's look into it and as i started let's look into it and as i started let's look into it and as i started doing research and then prayed about it doing research and then prayed about it doing research and then prayed about it i was reminded of what god said to me i was reminded of what god said to me i was reminded of what god said to me years ago saying hey remember i told you years ago saying hey remember i told you years ago saying hey remember i told you go into the world and all of a sudden go into the world and all of a sudden go into the world and all of a sudden the light bulb clicked of oh my goodness the light bulb clicked of oh my goodness the light bulb clicked of oh my goodness like with technology at the click of a like with technology at the click of a like with technology at the click of a button you can reach this world now i button you can reach this world now i button you can reach this world now i don't know how to do it but we'll figure don't know how to do it but we'll figure don't know how to do it but we'll figure it out and so that's what started the it out and so that's what started the it out and so that's what started the journey at life church and it's been journey at life church and it's been journey at life church and it's been incredible uh to be a part of that

incredible uh to be a part of that incredible uh to be a part of that journey i was the church online pastor journey i was the church online pastor journey i was the church online pastor for almost 10 years my wife is also on for almost 10 years my wife is also on for almost 10 years my wife is also on staff she's still on staff and so as a staff she's still on staff and so as a staff she's still on staff and so as a family we just we were grateful that we family we just we were grateful that we family we just we were grateful that we got to start you know working at the got to start you know working at the got to start you know working at the church that we were attending and church that we were attending and church that we were attending and it's been an incredible journey to see it's been an incredible journey to see it's been an incredible journey to see what god's done it was at the end of what god's done it was at the end of what god's done it was at the end of last year that i transitioned off the last year that i transitioned off the last year that i transitioned off the team um felt like god was saying hey team um felt like god was saying hey team um felt like god was saying hey your chapter here is done your chapter here is done your chapter here is done and i was like okay i don't know what and i was like okay i don't know what and i was like okay i don't know what i'm doing obviously talk to pastor craig i'm doing obviously talk to pastor craig i'm doing obviously talk to pastor craig and the leadership team and they were and the leadership team and they were and the leadership team and they were super supportive super supportive super supportive so so so we're in that stage where it's like okay we're in that stage where it's like okay we're in that stage where it's like okay god here i am what do you want me to do god here i am what do you want me to do god here i am what do you want me to do and so and so and so it's been really an incredible journey it's been really an incredible journey it's been really an incredible journey to see how churches are navigating this to see how churches are navigating this to see how churches are navigating this new season and working alongside them new season and working alongside them new season and working alongside them wow i cannot wait to dig into this okay wow i cannot wait to dig into this okay wow i cannot wait to dig into this okay so we get the privilege of talking to a so we get the privilege of talking to a so we get the privilege of talking to a lot of churches and and lot of churches and and lot of churches and and you know because our space is in the you know because our space is in the you know because our space is in the digital space so a lot of churches digital space so a lot of churches digital space so a lot of churches uh especially in the last couple years uh especially in the last couple years uh especially in the last couple years covet breaks you know happens and every covet breaks you know happens and every covet breaks you know happens and every church is online and they're coming to church is online and they're coming to church is online and they're coming to us going okay us going okay us going okay we think we got this we've been using we think we got this we've been using we think we got this we've been using this thing called chop this thing called chop this thing called chop right church online platform from life right church online platform from life right church online platform from life church so we're able to do our stream church so we're able to do our stream church so we're able to do our stream our services or they put them on our services or they put them on our services or they put them on facebook or youtube or whatnot facebook or youtube or whatnot facebook or youtube or whatnot but churches want to go a lot deeper but churches want to go a lot deeper but churches want to go a lot deeper than that than that than that okay so i am i really want to hear from okay so i am i really want to hear from okay so i am i really want to hear from you on how did you guys you on how did you guys you on how did you guys transition from having a really great transition from having a really great transition from having a really great effective effective effective weekend service that was online which weekend service that was online which weekend service that was online which anybody and a lot of people around the anybody and a lot of people around the anybody and a lot of people around the world tune into that

world tune into that world tune into that to transitioning to actually then how do to transitioning to actually then how do to transitioning to actually then how do you do ministry online and connect with you do ministry online and connect with you do ministry online and connect with people you can't shake their hands like people you can't shake their hands like people you can't shake their hands like you said you said you said but you can do you can build a but you can do you can build a but you can do you can build a relationship how did you do that relationship how did you do that relationship how did you do that yeah it's yeah it's yeah it's before i kind of look back i want to before i kind of look back i want to before i kind of look back i want to throw a caveat okay and throw a caveat okay and throw a caveat okay and i think the way we did or rather my i think the way we did or rather my i think the way we did or rather my mindset was pre-covered mindset was pre-covered mindset was pre-covered is very different post covid so i i is very different post covid so i i is very different post covid so i i happy to share what we did but i also happy to share what we did but i also happy to share what we did but i also want to say want to say want to say that i if i were to do it today i would that i if i were to do it today i would that i if i were to do it today i would probably do it differently just because probably do it differently just because probably do it differently just because kovit has changed the game but i think kovit has changed the game but i think kovit has changed the game but i think there's value in what we learned earlier there's value in what we learned earlier there's value in what we learned earlier so for me because i was wired to be more so for me because i was wired to be more so for me because i was wired to be more face to face um and i know i'm not i was face to face um and i know i'm not i was face to face um and i know i'm not i was not and i i don't know if i could still not and i i don't know if i could still not and i i don't know if i could still say i'm a digital native i'm more of a say i'm a digital native i'm more of a say i'm a digital native i'm more of a like a digital you know um i don't know like a digital you know um i don't know like a digital you know um i don't know implant i guess i just you know happened implant i guess i just you know happened implant i guess i just you know happened to show up here but what i what i to show up here but what i what i to show up here but what i what i started figuring out was started figuring out was started figuring out was um when i transitioned from the campus um when i transitioned from the campus um when i transitioned from the campus physical location team to the online physical location team to the online physical location team to the online team i thought i had to rewrite team i thought i had to rewrite team i thought i had to rewrite everything i thought we had to change everything i thought we had to change everything i thought we had to change the game i thought everything was going the game i thought everything was going the game i thought everything was going to be different and after a couple of to be different and after a couple of to be different and after a couple of months i realized months i realized months i realized while our lobbies might look different while our lobbies might look different while our lobbies might look different we're still dealing with people at the we're still dealing with people at the we're still dealing with people at the end of the day it's still ministry it's end of the day it's still ministry it's end of the day it's still ministry it's not about the flashy new technology it's not about the flashy new technology it's not about the flashy new technology it's about identifying what at the heart of about identifying what at the heart of about identifying what at the heart of um who we are as a church are we able to um who we are as a church are we able to um who we are as a church are we able to accomplish our vision and our mission

accomplish our vision and our mission accomplish our vision and our mission and so for me it was always about and so for me it was always about and so for me it was always about doing that rather than the tools and so doing that rather than the tools and so doing that rather than the tools and so we would say even as a team if if the we would say even as a team if if the we would say even as a team if if the internet was here and gone tomorrow internet was here and gone tomorrow internet was here and gone tomorrow we'll jump to the next thing so that we we'll jump to the next thing so that we we'll jump to the next thing so that we can accomplish the mission because and can accomplish the mission because and can accomplish the mission because and many people have said it you know many people have said it you know many people have said it you know the way we do ministry might change but the way we do ministry might change but the way we do ministry might change but at the heart of it that's never going to at the heart of it that's never going to at the heart of it that's never going to change and so what i did and it seems change and so what i did and it seems change and so what i did and it seems like really silly but i literally pulled like really silly but i literally pulled like really silly but i literally pulled out a piece of paper and pen because out a piece of paper and pen because out a piece of paper and pen because that's what i was used to you know i that's what i was used to you know i that's what i was used to you know i don't care about ipads and all that like don't care about ipads and all that like don't care about ipads and all that like earlier on when i started and i and i earlier on when i started and i and i earlier on when i started and i and i took just a note of okay when i took just a note of okay when i took just a note of okay when i connected with people in a physical connected with people in a physical connected with people in a physical location location location what did that mean like what does what did that mean like what does what did that mean like what does connection what was that or how did i connection what was that or how did i connection what was that or how did i define connection and it was well define connection and it was well define connection and it was well i wanted to see people okay why did i i wanted to see people okay why did i i wanted to see people okay why did i want to see them it's because i wanted want to see them it's because i wanted want to see them it's because i wanted to know what was going on in their life to know what was going on in their life to know what was going on in their life and i just wrote this list down and then and i just wrote this list down and then and i just wrote this list down and then i looked on the other side of like okay i looked on the other side of like okay i looked on the other side of like okay let's go technology what is the let's go technology what is the let's go technology what is the equivalent of this experience online equivalent of this experience online equivalent of this experience online is there an experience online like that is there an experience online like that is there an experience online like that you know i want to connect with my top you know i want to connect with my top you know i want to connect with my top givers so i can't go out for coffee with givers so i can't go out for coffee with givers so i can't go out for coffee with people that live in a different part of people that live in a different part of people that live in a different part of the world well what could i do so rather the world well what could i do so rather the world well what could i do so rather than allowing this to be a limitation it than allowing this to be a limitation it than allowing this to be a limitation it was i just got to rethink my approach was i just got to rethink my approach was i just got to rethink my approach um because um because um because i think sometimes we think only in terms i think sometimes we think only in terms i think sometimes we think only in terms of limitations when it comes to of limitations when it comes to of limitations when it comes to technology but the reality is this whole technology but the reality is this whole technology but the reality is this whole thing is god's and that was a wake-up thing is god's and that was a wake-up thing is god's and that was a wake-up call for me because while we can create

call for me because while we can create call for me because while we can create strategies and all of that it's god who strategies and all of that it's god who strategies and all of that it's god who changes lives and if i think church changes lives and if i think church changes lives and if i think church online or something online won't work online or something online won't work online or something online won't work i'm unintentionally saying that god is i'm unintentionally saying that god is i'm unintentionally saying that god is limited and he can't leverage technology limited and he can't leverage technology limited and he can't leverage technology to do what he wants to do and i was like to do what he wants to do and i was like to do what he wants to do and i was like no that's not true god can so how can we no that's not true god can so how can we no that's not true god can so how can we as people create the right opportunities as people create the right opportunities as people create the right opportunities and the right experiences so that people and the right experiences so that people and the right experiences so that people can encounter him so can encounter him so can encounter him so that's it it may sound like a vague that's it it may sound like a vague that's it it may sound like a vague answer but that was the mindset that i answer but that was the mindset that i answer but that was the mindset that i went into and and you talk about went into and and you talk about went into and and you talk about volunteers you talk about next steps you volunteers you talk about next steps you volunteers you talk about next steps you talk about assimilation small groups we talk about assimilation small groups we talk about assimilation small groups we applied this thinking of if someone applied this thinking of if someone applied this thinking of if someone served in person served in person served in person what would that conversation be well what would that conversation be well what would that conversation be well let's let's find the equivalent online let's let's find the equivalent online let's let's find the equivalent online if someone got saved in person what if someone got saved in person what if someone got saved in person what would that conversation be well i can would that conversation be well i can would that conversation be well i can build email campaigns build email campaigns build email campaigns that could mimic my conversation with that could mimic my conversation with that could mimic my conversation with them and even the time frame that i them and even the time frame that i them and even the time frame that i would talk to them so why not leverage would talk to them so why not leverage would talk to them so why not leverage that for that purpose you know so i'll that for that purpose you know so i'll that for that purpose you know so i'll go wherever you guys want to go but that go wherever you guys want to go but that go wherever you guys want to go but that was kind of the mindset that we we was kind of the mindset that we we was kind of the mindset that we we took as we started looking at doing took as we started looking at doing took as we started looking at doing ministry online well i'm curious because ministry online well i'm curious because ministry online well i'm curious because a lot of churches will feel like when i a lot of churches will feel like when i a lot of churches will feel like when i have conversations with them they'll have conversations with them they'll have conversations with them they'll feel like what are we missing feel like what are we missing feel like what are we missing you know we're doing this we're doing you know we're doing this we're doing you know we're doing this we're doing this we're doing this but we feel like this we're doing this but we feel like this we're doing this but we feel like we're missing we're missing we're missing something something something and so you know and so you know and so you know the answer is well the answer is well the answer is well connecting literally one-on-one are you connecting literally one-on-one are you connecting literally one-on-one are you are you having zoom calls with people are you having zoom calls with people are you having zoom calls with people are you interacting with them on social are you interacting with them on social are you interacting with them on social media media media do you have a schedule invite into a

do you have a schedule invite into a do you have a schedule invite into a kind of a scheduled wednesday night kind of a scheduled wednesday night kind of a scheduled wednesday night small group thing small group thing small group thing what was most effective for you guys in what was most effective for you guys in what was most effective for you guys in terms of how you were making those terms of how you were making those terms of how you were making those one-on-one connections what platform and one-on-one connections what platform and one-on-one connections what platform and what'd that look like sure i see i think what'd that look like sure i see i think what'd that look like sure i see i think for us it's for us it's for us it's i think sometimes not all churches but i think sometimes not all churches but i think sometimes not all churches but some churches might fall into this trap some churches might fall into this trap some churches might fall into this trap of hey we're doing this thing in person of hey we're doing this thing in person of hey we're doing this thing in person covet happened covet happened covet happened i'm just gonna take what i'm doing in i'm just gonna take what i'm doing in i'm just gonna take what i'm doing in person and i'm just gonna throw it person and i'm just gonna throw it person and i'm just gonna throw it online you know and then cross my online you know and then cross my online you know and then cross my fingers i hope it works fingers i hope it works fingers i hope it works but if we look at some of the more but if we look at some of the more but if we look at some of the more successful churches you know and success successful churches you know and success successful churches you know and success can be defined in different ways it's can be defined in different ways it's can be defined in different ways it's not necessarily attendance but some of not necessarily attendance but some of not necessarily attendance but some of those churches where people feel engaged those churches where people feel engaged those churches where people feel engaged where people feel like this is their where people feel like this is their where people feel like this is their home church home church home church there's a lot of things that you do in there's a lot of things that you do in there's a lot of things that you do in those moments in person that we forget those moments in person that we forget those moments in person that we forget we need to do online we need to do online we need to do online for example for example for example many churches have you know text a many churches have you know text a many churches have you know text a certain number certain number certain number and um you know to access our connect and um you know to access our connect and um you know to access our connect card well what does that when someone card well what does that when someone card well what does that when someone texts what do they get like we we don't texts what do they get like we we don't texts what do they get like we we don't look at the language it's typically like look at the language it's typically like look at the language it's typically like click here for this click here for this click here for this click here for this click here for this click here for this you know whatever you know whatever you know whatever but we would never do that in person if but we would never do that in person if but we would never do that in person if someone says hey can i have a connect someone says hey can i have a connect someone says hey can i have a connect card card card i hope we don't do yeah go it's right i hope we don't do yeah go it's right i hope we don't do yeah go it's right there like we'll never do that but there like we'll never do that but there like we'll never do that but digitally we tend to talk that way and digitally we tend to talk that way and digitally we tend to talk that way and so i think i know that's you know your so i think i know that's you know your so i think i know that's you know your listeners might think well that's like listeners might think well that's like listeners might think well that's like super tiny yes but a lot of tiny little super tiny yes but a lot of tiny little super tiny yes but a lot of tiny little moments like that can create how someone moments like that can create how someone moments like that can create how someone experiences church before someone steps experiences church before someone steps experiences church before someone steps into your church building for the very

into your church building for the very into your church building for the very first time in today's world they will first time in today's world they will first time in today's world they will look you up online and if there is not a look you up online and if there is not a look you up online and if there is not a welcoming or a sense that man this welcoming or a sense that man this welcoming or a sense that man this church really cares about me church really cares about me church really cares about me online they probably won't walk into online they probably won't walk into online they probably won't walk into your building in person your building in person your building in person what was your so what would be your what was your so what would be your what was your so what would be your advice because a lot of churches advice because a lot of churches advice because a lot of churches uh i mean they were forced into space uh i mean they were forced into space uh i mean they were forced into space with kovid but before then with kovid but before then with kovid but before then yeah yeah it was all about in person yeah yeah it was all about in person yeah yeah it was all about in person especially from the leadership down so a especially from the leadership down so a especially from the leadership down so a communication director or a web person communication director or a web person communication director or a web person was trying to also get the online was trying to also get the online was trying to also get the online engagement going engagement going engagement going i would imagine being at your church i would imagine being at your church i would imagine being at your church with with pastor craig it's it's it with with pastor craig it's it's it with with pastor craig it's it's it starts with like you know him and going starts with like you know him and going starts with like you know him and going no this is what we're doing was that the no this is what we're doing was that the no this is what we're doing was that the case or was he going i don't you you case or was he going i don't you you case or was he going i don't you you inform me on what we should do how was inform me on what we should do how was inform me on what we should do how was well well well it was it was it was it was it was it was um um um with pastor craig i i think when i with pastor craig i i think when i with pastor craig i i think when i talked to my friends who were in similar talked to my friends who were in similar talked to my friends who were in similar roles i think one of the biggest roles i think one of the biggest roles i think one of the biggest advantages i had advantages i had advantages i had was the fact that our leadership team was the fact that our leadership team was the fact that our leadership team was bought in was bought in was bought in um i didn't have to continuously um i didn't have to continuously um i didn't have to continuously convince them to keep my job you know i convince them to keep my job you know i convince them to keep my job you know i was not trying to say hey this world was not trying to say hey this world was not trying to say hey this world matters matters matters they believed in it 100 they believed in it 100 they believed in it 100 and i felt that um there was a lot of and i felt that um there was a lot of and i felt that um there was a lot of freedom that they gave me but the freedom that they gave me but the freedom that they gave me but the accountability was high and so i i i accountability was high and so i i i accountability was high and so i i i really enjoyed the tension and and it really enjoyed the tension and and it really enjoyed the tension and and it honestly it felt like man this is a honestly it felt like man this is a honestly it felt like man this is a ministry that god's asking me to steward ministry that god's asking me to steward ministry that god's asking me to steward and obviously i'm held accountable and and obviously i'm held accountable and and obviously i'm held accountable and so that buy-in from leadership team that

so that buy-in from leadership team that so that buy-in from leadership team that makes a world of a difference it's a makes a world of a difference it's a makes a world of a difference it's a completely different environment when completely different environment when completely different environment when your leadership team is like i don't your leadership team is like i don't your leadership team is like i don't really care to do this but we're going really care to do this but we're going really care to do this but we're going to try it and every to try it and every to try it and every update is you trying to convince them so update is you trying to convince them so update is you trying to convince them so and i don't think there are a whole lot and i don't think there are a whole lot and i don't think there are a whole lot of churches in that stage anymore i of churches in that stage anymore i of churches in that stage anymore i think people are moving but there is think people are moving but there is think people are moving but there is this tension internally this tension internally this tension internally where where where we are even organizationally we're we are even organizationally we're we are even organizationally we're structured to support a physical structured to support a physical structured to support a physical location and we try to add on this location and we try to add on this location and we try to add on this digital thing but if we want to look at digital thing but if we want to look at digital thing but if we want to look at corporate and we want to you know pull a corporate and we want to you know pull a corporate and we want to you know pull a page from their playbook page from their playbook page from their playbook they understand that this is not like they understand that this is not like they understand that this is not like some kind of hybrid model necessarily some kind of hybrid model necessarily some kind of hybrid model necessarily this is how they do what they do um this is how they do what they do um this is how they do what they do um their customer that's online and their their customer that's online and their their customer that's online and their customer that's in person for them it's customer that's in person for them it's customer that's in person for them it's their customer they don't differentiate their customer they don't differentiate their customer they don't differentiate or add a greater value or lesser value or add a greater value or lesser value or add a greater value or lesser value it's that's my customer the advantage it's that's my customer the advantage it's that's my customer the advantage they have is there's a bottom line like they have is there's a bottom line like they have is there's a bottom line like you're buying a product in the church you're buying a product in the church you're buying a product in the church world and i could be wrong this is just world and i could be wrong this is just world and i could be wrong this is just my perspective my perspective my perspective for many years again this is not the for many years again this is not the for many years again this is not the only stat but for many years only stat but for many years only stat but for many years attending in person was at the top of attending in person was at the top of attending in person was at the top of the list the list the list and now that people have an option to and now that people have an option to and now that people have an option to not attend tenant person but still not attend tenant person but still not attend tenant person but still engage in church many of us don't know engage in church many of us don't know engage in church many of us don't know how like whoa whoa whoa how like whoa whoa whoa how like whoa whoa whoa i mean i have to i could rethink my i mean i have to i could rethink my i mean i have to i could rethink my whole approach and that's what i mean whole approach and that's what i mean whole approach and that's what i mean post covid post covid post covid the people we're trying to reach they the people we're trying to reach they the people we're trying to reach they engage differently with technology and engage differently with technology and engage differently with technology and so how can we as the church move to so how can we as the church move to so how can we as the church move to where they are instead of trying to

where they are instead of trying to where they are instead of trying to force them to come back to where we used force them to come back to where we used force them to come back to where we used to be to be to be it's interesting that you know you you it's interesting that you know you you it's interesting that you know you you started out talking about sort of your started out talking about sort of your started out talking about sort of your role and and how you were beginning to role and and how you were beginning to role and and how you were beginning to explore and think about how to create an explore and think about how to create an explore and think about how to create an online experience and that you know online experience and that you know online experience and that you know replicated replicated replicated at least the components of what you at least the components of what you at least the components of what you would experience in person um you know i would experience in person um you know i would experience in person um you know i i think one of the things that i i think one of the things that i i think one of the things that i personally admire the most about life personally admire the most about life personally admire the most about life church church church is is is the ability to innovate and that's the ability to innovate and that's the ability to innovate and that's definitely one of the things you know if definitely one of the things you know if definitely one of the things you know if you've ever listened to any interviews you've ever listened to any interviews you've ever listened to any interviews with bobby grunwald like that's what you with bobby grunwald like that's what you with bobby grunwald like that's what you hear all the time is this this hear all the time is this this hear all the time is this this creativity and this innovation and creativity and this innovation and creativity and this innovation and you're speaking to that to a great you're speaking to that to a great you're speaking to that to a great degree that degree that degree that churches need to innovate you know one churches need to innovate you know one churches need to innovate you know one of the things that i was thinking about of the things that i was thinking about of the things that i was thinking about when you were just talking a moment ago when you were just talking a moment ago when you were just talking a moment ago about you know about you know about you know trying to create this online experience trying to create this online experience trying to create this online experience that isn't just serving a physical that isn't just serving a physical that isn't just serving a physical location or a fly-on-the-wall experience location or a fly-on-the-wall experience location or a fly-on-the-wall experience for what people would experience if they for what people would experience if they for what people would experience if they showed up in person you know there's showed up in person you know there's showed up in person you know there's this famous guy named jesus who had this famous guy named jesus who had this famous guy named jesus who had something to say about new wine in new something to say about new wine in new something to say about new wine in new wineskins versus old wineskins and i wineskins versus old wineskins and i wineskins versus old wineskins and i think that's one of the challenges that think that's one of the challenges that think that's one of the challenges that the local church has had the local church has had the local church has had um um um historically is trying to do innovative historically is trying to do innovative historically is trying to do innovative and new and creative things without and new and creative things without and new and creative things without being willing to put it in new wine being willing to put it in new wine being willing to put it in new wine skins we kind of repackage the old thing skins we kind of repackage the old thing skins we kind of repackage the old thing into new ways and don't really make it into new ways and don't really make it into new ways and don't really make it fit very well um you have a resource

fit very well um you have a resource fit very well um you have a resource that's available online and we'll make that's available online and we'll make that's available online and we'll make sure that we link to this sure that we link to this sure that we link to this in our show notes um it's an ebook in our show notes um it's an ebook in our show notes um it's an ebook called discipleship for a digital age called discipleship for a digital age called discipleship for a digital age and what i like about the title is that and what i like about the title is that and what i like about the title is that it's not just about church online but it's not just about church online but it's not just about church online but it's actually about discipleship because it's actually about discipleship because it's actually about discipleship because without discipleship we're not really without discipleship we're not really without discipleship we're not really doing church online um in the first doing church online um in the first doing church online um in the first section of the book you you you talk section of the book you you you talk section of the book you you you talk about this concept this idea of about this concept this idea of about this concept this idea of innovation and you quote uh lyle innovation and you quote uh lyle innovation and you quote uh lyle scheller is saying the innovator is not scheller is saying the innovator is not scheller is saying the innovator is not an opponent of the old he is a proponent an opponent of the old he is a proponent an opponent of the old he is a proponent of the new not an opponent of the old of the new not an opponent of the old of the new not an opponent of the old but a proponent of the new but a proponent of the new but a proponent of the new why do you think that that statement is why do you think that that statement is why do you think that that statement is an important concept for the local an important concept for the local an important concept for the local church to grasp church to grasp church to grasp the reason that quote stuck out to me the reason that quote stuck out to me the reason that quote stuck out to me was i was i was i i sometimes think that i sometimes think that i sometimes think that in the church world we feel like in the church world we feel like in the church world we feel like technology is a threat technology is a threat technology is a threat and technology can be viewed as a threat and technology can be viewed as a threat and technology can be viewed as a threat if our goal is to get someone into our if our goal is to get someone into our if our goal is to get someone into our building to sit in our seat if that is building to sit in our seat if that is building to sit in our seat if that is the the the main thing that we're driving towards i main thing that we're driving towards i main thing that we're driving towards i think technology could be viewed as a think technology could be viewed as a think technology could be viewed as a threat threat threat if our goal is i want to help people if our goal is i want to help people if our goal is i want to help people grow in their relationship with god i grow in their relationship with god i grow in their relationship with god i want to help people grow in their want to help people grow in their want to help people grow in their relationship with each other so that relationship with each other so that relationship with each other so that they're not just living isolated lives they're not just living isolated lives they're not just living isolated lives that but they're you know connecting that but they're you know connecting that but they're you know connecting with others if if we want to help people with others if if we want to help people with others if if we want to help people not just focus on themselves but also not just focus on themselves but also not just focus on themselves but also learn to serve in the community that learn to serve in the community that learn to serve in the community that they're a part of and give generously they're a part of and give generously they're a part of and give generously and you think of all these values that

and you think of all these values that and you think of all these values that we hold close if that is our mission we hold close if that is our mission we hold close if that is our mission then technology could be one of the then technology could be one of the then technology could be one of the greatest opportunities that we have to greatest opportunities that we have to greatest opportunities that we have to fulfill this mission fulfill this mission fulfill this mission so i i want i i like that quote because so i i want i i like that quote because so i i want i i like that quote because i don't i do not believe that technology i don't i do not believe that technology i don't i do not believe that technology is a threat i think that technology is is a threat i think that technology is is a threat i think that technology is going to help us maximize what is truly going to help us maximize what is truly going to help us maximize what is truly at the heart of what we want to do now at the heart of what we want to do now at the heart of what we want to do now is that going to force us to do things a is that going to force us to do things a is that going to force us to do things a little bit differently yes little bit differently yes little bit differently yes one of the questions that i get asked one of the questions that i get asked one of the questions that i get asked all the time is alan if we have a really all the time is alan if we have a really all the time is alan if we have a really good online ministry wouldn't that lead good online ministry wouldn't that lead good online ministry wouldn't that lead to less people showing up in our to less people showing up in our to less people showing up in our buildings i can tell you from personal buildings i can tell you from personal buildings i can tell you from personal experience at life church that is not experience at life church that is not experience at life church that is not the case our our online the case our our online the case our our online engagement has grown and over the years engagement has grown and over the years engagement has grown and over the years our physical locations have grown our physical locations have grown our physical locations have grown ridiculously as well ridiculously as well ridiculously as well so i think the better experience you so i think the better experience you so i think the better experience you have online actually leads especially if have online actually leads especially if have online actually leads especially if people live near one of your physical people live near one of your physical people live near one of your physical locations that leads to them going man locations that leads to them going man locations that leads to them going man this is so good online i can't wait to this is so good online i can't wait to this is so good online i can't wait to see what it looks like in person that's see what it looks like in person that's see what it looks like in person that's what it typically sounds like um i i what it typically sounds like um i i what it typically sounds like um i i traveled traveled traveled a lot over the world over the past 10 a lot over the world over the past 10 a lot over the world over the past 10 years and the first question i typically years and the first question i typically years and the first question i typically get when i show up is hey is live church get when i show up is hey is live church get when i show up is hey is live church coming here is live church coming here coming here is live church coming here coming here is live church coming here and it's like and it's like and it's like no like lecture lecture's already here no like lecture lecture's already here no like lecture lecture's already here you're here you know we come up with you you're here you know we come up with you you're here you know we come up with you know some kind of answer like that know some kind of answer like that know some kind of answer like that but that to me is just one simple sign but that to me is just one simple sign but that to me is just one simple sign of saying online now of saying online now of saying online now are you going to find people that are

are you going to find people that are are you going to find people that are going to use it as an excuse yes but if going to use it as an excuse yes but if going to use it as an excuse yes but if we're true with ourselves there are a we're true with ourselves there are a we're true with ourselves there are a ton of people ton of people ton of people that are maybe just walking into our that are maybe just walking into our that are maybe just walking into our building not talking to a single single building not talking to a single single building not talking to a single single person they're probably not using what person they're probably not using what person they're probably not using what they've they've they've they've heard or learned they're not in they've heard or learned they're not in they've heard or learned they're not in small groups they're not you know any small groups they're not you know any small groups they're not you know any kind of community that's serving or kind of community that's serving or kind of community that's serving or anything so they come in and they leave anything so they come in and they leave anything so they come in and they leave does that really count i don't know so does that really count i don't know so does that really count i don't know so if we're true with ourselves i think if we're true with ourselves i think if we're true with ourselves i think there's pros and cons for both there's pros and cons for both there's pros and cons for both for me it's i want to be able to do and for me it's i want to be able to do and for me it's i want to be able to do and we say this at life church all the time we say this at life church all the time we say this at life church all the time we want to be able to do anything short we want to be able to do anything short we want to be able to do anything short of sin to reach people who don't know of sin to reach people who don't know of sin to reach people who don't know christ which means you got to do things christ which means you got to do things christ which means you got to do things that no one else is doing and so for for that no one else is doing and so for for that no one else is doing and so for for me me me this is one of those opportunities where this is one of those opportunities where this is one of those opportunities where we can literally reach people anywhere we can literally reach people anywhere we can literally reach people anywhere in the world without leaving in the world without leaving in the world without leaving you know where we are right now the you know where we are right now the you know where we are right now the three of us we're all in three different three of us we're all in three different three of us we're all in three different cities but we're having a conversation cities but we're having a conversation cities but we're having a conversation and would it be awesome to and would it be awesome to and would it be awesome to sit together and have a cup of coffee or sit together and have a cup of coffee or sit together and have a cup of coffee or tea or whatever in person sure but just tea or whatever in person sure but just tea or whatever in person sure but just because we can't do that doesn't mean we because we can't do that doesn't mean we because we can't do that doesn't mean we shouldn't do this and so that's where my shouldn't do this and so that's where my shouldn't do this and so that's where my mind is and i i hope that churches i mind is and i i hope that churches i mind is and i i hope that churches i think they are getting to this place think they are getting to this place think they are getting to this place where they're able to understand that where they're able to understand that where they're able to understand that better hi bart blair here i'm the better hi bart blair here i'm the better hi bart blair here i'm the producer of missional marketing's church producer of missional marketing's church producer of missional marketing's church growth interviews podcast on behalf of growth interviews podcast on behalf of growth interviews podcast on behalf of our entire team we really appreciate you our entire team we really appreciate you our entire team we really appreciate you tuning in let me ask you a question if tuning in let me ask you a question if tuning in let me ask you a question if you're a church leader or a church you're a church leader or a church you're a church leader or a church communications professional do you know communications professional do you know communications professional do you know how google sees your church website how google sees your church website how google sees your church website in other words if people in your in other words if people in your in other words if people in your community were to google churches near

community were to google churches near community were to google churches near me or best church in my city or good me or best church in my city or good me or best church in my city or good church nearby do you know where your church nearby do you know where your church nearby do you know where your church website would show up in those church website would show up in those church website would show up in those search results search results search results at the top maybe or somewhere in the at the top maybe or somewhere in the at the top maybe or somewhere in the middle or somewhere on page four you middle or somewhere on page four you middle or somewhere on page four you know there's a common misunderstanding know there's a common misunderstanding know there's a common misunderstanding that if we simply build a great website that if we simply build a great website that if we simply build a great website and we launch it that google will and we launch it that google will and we launch it that google will somehow work its magic and people will somehow work its magic and people will somehow work its magic and people will find us online but there's a bit more find us online but there's a bit more find us online but there's a bit more art and science to making sure that your art and science to making sure that your art and science to making sure that your church website shows up in the top of church website shows up in the top of church website shows up in the top of those search results and that science is those search results and that science is those search results and that science is called local seo or local search engine called local seo or local search engine called local seo or local search engine optimization in admission marketing optimization in admission marketing optimization in admission marketing local seo is one of the core services local seo is one of the core services local seo is one of the core services that we provide for churches all across that we provide for churches all across that we provide for churches all across the united states and canada the united states and canada the united states and canada we'd love to help you we'd love to help you we'd love to help you if you'd like to learn more click to our if you'd like to learn more click to our if you'd like to learn more click to our website at missionalmarketing.com and website at missionalmarketing.com and website at missionalmarketing.com and follow the link at the top of the page follow the link at the top of the page follow the link at the top of the page that says church seo you can request a that says church seo you can request a that says church seo you can request a free local seo report to see how your free local seo report to see how your free local seo report to see how your church is showing up in google these church is showing up in google these church is showing up in google these days and you can schedule an appointment days and you can schedule an appointment days and you can schedule an appointment to talk with jason or with me or with to talk with jason or with me or with to talk with jason or with me or with one of our other digital strategists to one of our other digital strategists to one of our other digital strategists to help you decide whether or not a local help you decide whether or not a local help you decide whether or not a local seo boost is right for your church hey seo boost is right for your church hey seo boost is right for your church hey again we appreciate you tuning in to our again we appreciate you tuning in to our again we appreciate you tuning in to our podcast and we look forward to the podcast and we look forward to the podcast and we look forward to the opportunity to serving you and your opportunity to serving you and your opportunity to serving you and your church and reaching more people for church and reaching more people for church and reaching more people for jesus now back to the show jesus now back to the show jesus now back to the show yeah yeah yeah so much to talk about there wow we could so much to talk about there wow we could so much to talk about there wow we could go on for a long time i what i think go on for a long time i what i think go on for a long time i what i think about is you know when when about is you know when when about is you know when when when we're talking to churches and know when we're talking to churches and know when we're talking to churches and know that you're you're doing this now as you that you're you're doing this now as you that you're you're doing this now as you as you do your thing which i can't wait as you do your thing which i can't wait as you do your thing which i can't wait to to to tell our audience about what you are tell our audience about what you are tell our audience about what you are doing now that's what i'm trying to doing now that's what i'm trying to doing now that's what i'm trying to figure out too jason yeah aren't we all

figure out too jason yeah aren't we all figure out too jason yeah aren't we all but in this space like the way we talk but in this space like the way we talk but in this space like the way we talk to churches is you really have three to churches is you really have three to churches is you really have three different rings to your audience bring different rings to your audience bring different rings to your audience bring one or people that go to your church and one or people that go to your church and one or people that go to your church and then ring tour people looking for a then ring tour people looking for a then ring tour people looking for a church then there's ring three church then there's ring three church then there's ring three people dealing with a felt need issue people dealing with a felt need issue people dealing with a felt need issue pair you know marriage or parenting or pair you know marriage or parenting or pair you know marriage or parenting or addictions or grief or finances stress addictions or grief or finances stress addictions or grief or finances stress whatever it might be whatever it might be whatever it might be and yet we're always telling churches and yet we're always telling churches and yet we're always telling churches that you need to be using digital tools that you need to be using digital tools that you need to be using digital tools to reach people outside the church to reach people outside the church to reach people outside the church yes maybe they'll show up one day in yes maybe they'll show up one day in yes maybe they'll show up one day in person but maybe they physically can't person but maybe they physically can't person but maybe they physically can't they're so far away they're so far away they're so far away you know when i think about what you are you know when i think about what you are you know when i think about what you are doing now what you did at life church doing now what you did at life church doing now what you did at life church and what you're doing now and what you're doing now and what you're doing now it goes so far because life church is it goes so far because life church is it goes so far because life church is huge you have so many people in your huge you have so many people in your huge you have so many people in your church that have you know a lot of fel church that have you know a lot of fel church that have you know a lot of fel need issues so not only do you want to need issues so not only do you want to need issues so not only do you want to connect with people connect with people connect with people in the church in the church in the church you also want to reach people outside you also want to reach people outside you also want to reach people outside the church the church the church so you when you think of like so you when you think of like so you when you think of like discipleship discipleship discipleship that uh i'm kind of curious to how do that uh i'm kind of curious to how do that uh i'm kind of curious to how do you unpack that how do you you unpack that how do you you unpack that how do you how do you turn that into disciplining how do you turn that into disciplining how do you turn that into disciplining somebody somebody somebody digitally and did you guys uh you know digitally and did you guys uh you know digitally and did you guys uh you know what was the what was the end game for what was the what was the end game for what was the what was the end game for those relationships that you've those relationships that you've those relationships that you've established online established online established online so one of the things um that really made so one of the things um that really made so one of the things um that really made a difference for us was um donald a difference for us was um donald a difference for us was um donald miller's book uh story brand yup and um miller's book uh story brand yup and um miller's book uh story brand yup and um i'm sure you guys probably aware from a i'm sure you guys probably aware from a i'm sure you guys probably aware from a marketing perspective too marketing perspective too marketing perspective too it's i mean it's it's an unsaid it's i mean it's it's an unsaid it's i mean it's it's an unsaid statement like you don't want to be

statement like you don't want to be statement like you don't want to be talking about yourself you want to talking about yourself you want to talking about yourself you want to provide value for the person you're provide value for the person you're provide value for the person you're trying to reach and i think like trying to reach and i think like trying to reach and i think like move the church online services aside move the church online services aside move the church online services aside let's look at social media i think there let's look at social media i think there let's look at social media i think there are a lot of churches that are a lot of churches that are a lot of churches that really use social media as this new really use social media as this new really use social media as this new version of their you know church version of their you know church version of their you know church bulletin board here's what's happening bulletin board here's what's happening bulletin board here's what's happening this sunday here's what's happening on this sunday here's what's happening on this sunday here's what's happening on wednesday but wednesday but wednesday but imagine if we could flip that on top of imagine if we could flip that on top of imagine if we could flip that on top of its head and go okay instead of telling its head and go okay instead of telling its head and go okay instead of telling people about us people about us people about us what if we were to reach out and you what if we were to reach out and you what if we were to reach out and you know ask people about them and we saw know ask people about them and we saw know ask people about them and we saw opportunities like opportunities like opportunities like how can we pray for you a simple how can we pray for you a simple how can we pray for you a simple question like that question like that question like that would would invite people to share their would would invite people to share their would would invite people to share their prayer requests but it doesn't end there prayer requests but it doesn't end there prayer requests but it doesn't end there it's not about them just responding so it's not about them just responding so it's not about them just responding so again this goes back to kind of what i again this goes back to kind of what i again this goes back to kind of what i wrote down wrote down wrote down if i encounter if i ask somebody for if i encounter if i ask somebody for if i encounter if i ask somebody for their prayer request in person the their prayer request in person the their prayer request in person the conversation would be something like an conversation would be something like an conversation would be something like an imagine if i'm talking to bart bart how imagine if i'm talking to bart bart how imagine if i'm talking to bart bart how can i be praying for you bart shares can i be praying for you bart shares can i be praying for you bart shares this prayer request this prayer request this prayer request imagine how awkward it would be if he imagine how awkward it would be if he imagine how awkward it would be if he shares his prayer request and i just shares his prayer request and i just shares his prayer request and i just look at him and get up and walk away look at him and get up and walk away look at him and get up and walk away it's like what what where are you going it's like what what where are you going it's like what what where are you going like was my prayer request that's bad i like was my prayer request that's bad i like was my prayer request that's bad i mean we would never do that it would we mean we would never do that it would we mean we would never do that it would we would either for those of us who may not would either for those of us who may not would either for those of us who may not feel comfortable praying in person we feel comfortable praying in person we feel comfortable praying in person we might at least at the minimum say might at least at the minimum say might at least at the minimum say you know bart i'm going to be praying you know bart i'm going to be praying you know bart i'm going to be praying for you you know i'll check in on you or for you you know i'll check in on you or for you you know i'll check in on you or we might say hey let's pray right now we might say hey let's pray right now we might say hey let's pray right now and we'll pray and then we'll check in and we'll pray and then we'll check in and we'll pray and then we'll check in on them if we do that in person imagine on them if we do that in person imagine on them if we do that in person imagine what it would feel like if we could do what it would feel like if we could do what it would feel like if we could do that online so if someone shares their

that online so if someone shares their that online so if someone shares their prayer requests on social media instead prayer requests on social media instead prayer requests on social media instead of just of just of just remaining silent and walking away what remaining silent and walking away what remaining silent and walking away what if we could respond and not just say hey if we could respond and not just say hey if we could respond and not just say hey i'm praying for you what if we could i'm praying for you what if we could i'm praying for you what if we could type out a prayer request i can tell you type out a prayer request i can tell you type out a prayer request i can tell you guys story after story where we've guys story after story where we've guys story after story where we've actually typed out our prayers like what actually typed out our prayers like what actually typed out our prayers like what we're praying we're praying we're praying people have taken screenshots of that people have taken screenshots of that people have taken screenshots of that and printed it and had it stuck on their and printed it and had it stuck on their and printed it and had it stuck on their fridge and on their mirror because for fridge and on their mirror because for fridge and on their mirror because for many of them that was that that moment many of them that was that that moment many of them that was that that moment of hope that they needed and if the of hope that they needed and if the of hope that they needed and if the church could grab a hold of this can you church could grab a hold of this can you church could grab a hold of this can you imagine imagine imagine how we could connect with people and how we could connect with people and how we could connect with people and reach people and remind ourselves it's reach people and remind ourselves it's reach people and remind ourselves it's not about us but if we can meet them not about us but if we can meet them not about us but if we can meet them where they're at we don't where they're at we don't where they're at we don't we can be the church 24 7 because of we can be the church 24 7 because of we can be the church 24 7 because of technology and again if you think well technology and again if you think well technology and again if you think well it's only two people on staff or three it's only two people on staff or three it's only two people on staff or three on staff well now you've got an on staff well now you've got an on staff well now you've got an opportunity to invite people to serve opportunity to invite people to serve opportunity to invite people to serve with you and you can build a volunteer with you and you can build a volunteer with you and you can build a volunteer team around that and you could train team around that and you could train team around that and you could train people to do ministry where they too can people to do ministry where they too can people to do ministry where they too can pray with people halfway across the pray with people halfway across the pray with people halfway across the world again we're not limited there's no world again we're not limited there's no world again we're not limited there's no time barrier distance barrier even in time barrier distance barrier even in time barrier distance barrier even in some cases there's no language barrier some cases there's no language barrier some cases there's no language barrier because of technology so because of technology so because of technology so nothing is stopping us from being the nothing is stopping us from being the nothing is stopping us from being the church except for potentially us church except for potentially us church except for potentially us [Music] [Music] [Music] ellen i've i've been a i've been a small ellen i've i've been a i've been a small ellen i've i've been a i've been a small church pastor been a church planter i've church pastor been a church planter i've church pastor been a church planter i've been a small church pastor and i have been a small church pastor and i have been a small church pastor and i have the opportunity of talking to and and uh the opportunity of talking to and and uh the opportunity of talking to and and uh coaching a lot of normal size small coaching a lot of normal size small coaching a lot of normal size small church pastors and everything that church pastors and everything that church pastors and everything that you're saying there resonates with me it you're saying there resonates with me it you're saying there resonates with me it all makes sense and it all sounds like a

all makes sense and it all sounds like a all makes sense and it all sounds like a whole lot of work it just sounds like whole lot of work it just sounds like whole lot of work it just sounds like you've you basically everything that i'm you've you basically everything that i'm you've you basically everything that i'm doing as a pastor to train and equip and doing as a pastor to train and equip and doing as a pastor to train and equip and preach and and lead my local preach and and lead my local preach and and lead my local congregation now becomes exponentially congregation now becomes exponentially congregation now becomes exponentially more complex and my schedule becomes more complex and my schedule becomes more complex and my schedule becomes exponentially more full because i have exponentially more full because i have exponentially more full because i have this online component this online component this online component i'm thinking specifically in this moment i'm thinking specifically in this moment i'm thinking specifically in this moment about a church that in the dallas fort about a church that in the dallas fort about a church that in the dallas fort worth area that i've been working with worth area that i've been working with worth area that i've been working with that has literally doubled in size from that has literally doubled in size from that has literally doubled in size from about 280 to about 500 through the coven about 280 to about 500 through the coven about 280 to about 500 through the coven season and what's interesting season and what's interesting season and what's interesting is that while their in-person attendance is that while their in-person attendance is that while their in-person attendance has has has doubled doubled doubled their online engagement and online views their online engagement and online views their online engagement and online views has continued to grow grow grow grow and has continued to grow grow grow grow and has continued to grow grow grow grow and at this particular stage all their at this particular stage all their at this particular stage all their weekend live stream is is merely the fly weekend live stream is is merely the fly weekend live stream is is merely the fly on the wall experience and so i know the on the wall experience and so i know the on the wall experience and so i know the next question for them is going to be next question for them is going to be next question for them is going to be how do we leverage this online audience how do we leverage this online audience how do we leverage this online audience that we have to actually engage and do that we have to actually engage and do that we have to actually engage and do ministry and to do discipleship so one ministry and to do discipleship so one ministry and to do discipleship so one of the things i'd like for you to speak of the things i'd like for you to speak of the things i'd like for you to speak to is if you're talking to this church to is if you're talking to this church to is if you're talking to this church that you know only has a handful of that you know only has a handful of that you know only has a handful of staff members staff members staff members how do they staff that how do you staff how do they staff that how do you staff how do they staff that how do you staff it how do you build a volunteer team you it how do you build a volunteer team you it how do you build a volunteer team you know you you spoke on kerry newhoff's know you you spoke on kerry newhoff's know you you spoke on kerry newhoff's podcast um you said a couple things that podcast um you said a couple things that podcast um you said a couple things that really resonated with me when you talked really resonated with me when you talked really resonated with me when you talked about how churches typically staff it um about how churches typically staff it um about how churches typically staff it um you also write about that in in the you also write about that in in the you also write about that in in the e-book that i mentioned earlier e-book that i mentioned earlier e-book that i mentioned earlier what would your dream be if you're if what would your dream be if you're if what would your dream be if you're if when you're coaching churches and you when you're coaching churches and you when you're coaching churches and you say this is what you need to do to build

say this is what you need to do to build say this is what you need to do to build this online engagement and to be able to this online engagement and to be able to this online engagement and to be able to to minister to people online how are we to minister to people online how are we to minister to people online how are we going to staff it as a church going to staff it as a church going to staff it as a church um i um i um i it's i mean it's interesting that you it's i mean it's interesting that you it's i mean it's interesting that you bring that up work because i think that bring that up work because i think that bring that up work because i think that is a question that a lot of is a question that a lot of is a question that a lot of clusters ask um especially when it comes clusters ask um especially when it comes clusters ask um especially when it comes to you know yeah we to you know yeah we to you know yeah we we we saw some people watching online we we saw some people watching online we we saw some people watching online and so i just reached out to our and so i just reached out to our and so i just reached out to our part-time youth pastor and you know he part-time youth pastor and you know he part-time youth pastor and you know he and his girlfriend they kind of handled and his girlfriend they kind of handled and his girlfriend they kind of handled this and but we're not seeing results this and but we're not seeing results this and but we're not seeing results and i'm going well there's no reason why and i'm going well there's no reason why and i'm going well there's no reason why you're not seeing results you know so i you're not seeing results you know so i you're not seeing results you know so i think it would first start with think it would first start with think it would first start with you know where does this team when they you know where does this team when they you know where does this team when they look at the online ministry look at the online ministry look at the online ministry of their church or where it is currently of their church or where it is currently of their church or where it is currently where do they want to see it go what's where do they want to see it go what's where do they want to see it go what's their what's their desire for it where their what's their desire for it where their what's their desire for it where because you're right because you're right because you're right whether it's a law church or a little whether it's a law church or a little whether it's a law church or a little church church church there there's a limit to how many things there there's a limit to how many things there there's a limit to how many things you can do and this is something we've you can do and this is something we've you can do and this is something we've learned from pastor craig you know if learned from pastor craig you know if learned from pastor craig you know if you try to do too many things you're you try to do too many things you're you try to do too many things you're only going to be average at them so pick only going to be average at them so pick only going to be average at them so pick a handful of things that you can really a handful of things that you can really a handful of things that you can really excel at and so i think it would start excel at and so i think it would start excel at and so i think it would start with just a heart check of is this with just a heart check of is this with just a heart check of is this really a priority really a priority really a priority if it is a priority then maybe there if it is a priority then maybe there if it is a priority then maybe there might be something we need to stop doing might be something we need to stop doing might be something we need to stop doing in order to start doing something new in order to start doing something new in order to start doing something new and so obviously i'll go through that and so obviously i'll go through that and so obviously i'll go through that conversation with them and and then i've conversation with them and and then i've conversation with them and and then i've i've always felt in my heart that i've always felt in my heart that i've always felt in my heart that this is this is this is especially where technology is today especially where technology is today especially where technology is today this is a critical role in any this is a critical role in any this is a critical role in any organization not just church but you organization not just church but you organization not just church but you look at corporate you look anywhere it's

look at corporate you look anywhere it's look at corporate you look anywhere it's critical but i didn't have critical but i didn't have critical but i didn't have any theory behind like i didn't have any theory behind like i didn't have any theory behind like i didn't have like you know who can i talk to that can like you know who can i talk to that can like you know who can i talk to that can confirm this because it was me i'm in confirm this because it was me i'm in confirm this because it was me i'm in the role it looks like i'm trying to you the role it looks like i'm trying to you the role it looks like i'm trying to you know make my role seem important until i know make my role seem important until i know make my role seem important until i got the opportunity to talk to frank got the opportunity to talk to frank got the opportunity to talk to frank blake blake blake frank was the ex-ceo of home depot and frank was the ex-ceo of home depot and frank was the ex-ceo of home depot and he was the guy that just led to home he was the guy that just led to home he was the guy that just led to home depot being one of the leading you know depot being one of the leading you know depot being one of the leading you know organizations here in the nation and it organizations here in the nation and it organizations here in the nation and it was because of his approach to was because of his approach to was because of his approach to leveraging technology and i asked him leveraging technology and i asked him leveraging technology and i asked him about this i said when you looked at the about this i said when you looked at the about this i said when you looked at the future and you knew that okay technology future and you knew that okay technology future and you knew that okay technology was important what was your first you was important what was your first you was important what was your first you know what did you want to do and he said know what did you want to do and he said know what did you want to do and he said well i knew i had to find somebody and well i knew i had to find somebody and well i knew i had to find somebody and he admitted that he kind of did his he admitted that he kind of did his he admitted that he kind of did his version of the youth pastor where he version of the youth pastor where he version of the youth pastor where he found some guy and he was like hey you found some guy and he was like hey you found some guy and he was like hey you run it and it didn't really turn out run it and it didn't really turn out run it and it didn't really turn out that well and so they had to come back that well and so they had to come back that well and so they had to come back to the drawing board and he went okay to the drawing board and he went okay to the drawing board and he went okay if i want to do this i need to i need to if i want to do this i need to i need to if i want to do this i need to i need to find somebody and as he was describing find somebody and as he was describing find somebody and as he was describing that person he realized internally that person he realized internally that person he realized internally that if he were to pick the next person that if he were to pick the next person that if he were to pick the next person to be ceo after him that's the kind of to be ceo after him that's the kind of to be ceo after him that's the kind of person that he wanted to run this thing person that he wanted to run this thing person that he wanted to run this thing and i thought and i thought and i thought now now that's a conversation to have now now that's a conversation to have now now that's a conversation to have you know because i don't know how many you know because i don't know how many you know because i don't know how many senior pastors would be willing to take senior pastors would be willing to take senior pastors would be willing to take their most you know the the the the their most you know the the the the their most you know the the the the staff member that's kicking it that's staff member that's kicking it that's staff member that's kicking it that's killing it that's that's doing killing it that's that's doing killing it that's that's doing everything above and beyond would you everything above and beyond would you everything above and beyond would you take them and move them into this spot

take them and move them into this spot take them and move them into this spot but i think it's that kind of leadership but i think it's that kind of leadership but i think it's that kind of leadership that kind of that kind of that kind of heart vision mission for the house that heart vision mission for the house that heart vision mission for the house that you need if this was you could you could you need if this was you could you could you need if this was you could you could kind of write your own ticket that kind kind of write your own ticket that kind kind of write your own ticket that kind that would be the person that i would be that would be the person that i would be that would be the person that i would be looking for and i'm not saying it has to looking for and i'm not saying it has to looking for and i'm not saying it has to be the person that takes over after you be the person that takes over after you be the person that takes over after you but i hope you understand that but i hope you understand that but i hope you understand that it's more about the caliber of person it's more about the caliber of person it's more about the caliber of person you're not looking for the bottom wrong you're not looking for the bottom wrong you're not looking for the bottom wrong people you're looking for that that people you're looking for that that people you're looking for that that game-changing person if you are game-changing person if you are game-changing person if you are launching a new campus in a different launching a new campus in a different launching a new campus in a different city who is the campus pastor that you city who is the campus pastor that you city who is the campus pastor that you would say man that's the kind of guy would say man that's the kind of guy would say man that's the kind of guy that's the kind of gal that i would love that's the kind of gal that i would love that's the kind of gal that i would love to send there that's the person that to send there that's the person that to send there that's the person that you'd want to see leading this thing you'd want to see leading this thing you'd want to see leading this thing because it's it it's not one of those because it's it it's not one of those because it's it it's not one of those yeah we'll just have somebody else do it yeah we'll just have somebody else do it yeah we'll just have somebody else do it so i know i don't know bart if that's so i know i don't know bart if that's so i know i don't know bart if that's kind of kind of kind of where you wanted me to go but where you wanted me to go but where you wanted me to go but i think i think i think wherever the leader goes that's where wherever the leader goes that's where wherever the leader goes that's where you'll see the rest of the organization you'll see the rest of the organization you'll see the rest of the organization go and if this is important to you go and if this is important to you go and if this is important to you then i would find the leader and the then i would find the leader and the then i would find the leader and the strategy will follow strategy will follow strategy will follow i guarantee you you find the right i guarantee you you find the right i guarantee you you find the right leader don't do the strategy and then leader don't do the strategy and then leader don't do the strategy and then hope to find a leader find a leader and hope to find a leader find a leader and hope to find a leader find a leader and that leader will be able to create the that leader will be able to create the that leader will be able to create the strategy because they'll know we're not strategy because they'll know we're not strategy because they'll know we're not trying to do what that church or this trying to do what that church or this trying to do what that church or this church is doing we need to create a church is doing we need to create a church is doing we need to create a strategy that's right for our church and strategy that's right for our church and strategy that's right for our church and so that would be my advice to that so that would be my advice to that so that would be my advice to that church we've been doing this for church we've been doing this for church we've been doing this for i think i came on staff in 2016 and the i think i came on staff in 2016 and the i think i came on staff in 2016 and the reason we decided to as a company we reason we decided to as a company we reason we decided to as a company we decided to go deep into space is because decided to go deep into space is because decided to go deep into space is because we saw this was this was already we saw this was this was already we saw this was this was already happening right this idea this concept

happening right this idea this concept happening right this idea this concept of digital and online and doing church of digital and online and doing church of digital and online and doing church online all this kind of stuff online all this kind of stuff online all this kind of stuff it was we were employing pastors please it was we were employing pastors please it was we were employing pastors please take this serious you got to put right take this serious you got to put right take this serious you got to put right people budget time you got to put all people budget time you got to put all people budget time you got to put all that in motion now that in motion now that in motion now kova just sped it up really fast yeah kova just sped it up really fast yeah kova just sped it up really fast yeah right and so to kind of second what you right and so to kind of second what you right and so to kind of second what you just said i we it's still we're just said i we it's still we're just said i we it's still we're employing leaders please employing leaders please employing leaders please don't this is not a season it's not a don't this is not a season it's not a don't this is not a season it's not a a wave you know this is a wave you know this is a wave you know this is reality from here on out it's just gonna reality from here on out it's just gonna reality from here on out it's just gonna get stronger get stronger get stronger right and it's and it's and i think right and it's and it's and i think right and it's and it's and i think sometimes when pastors hear us talk they sometimes when pastors hear us talk they sometimes when pastors hear us talk they think it's either or and it's like no no think it's either or and it's like no no think it's either or and it's like no no it's not either or it's not now we have it's not either or it's not now we have it's not either or it's not now we have to forget the bill like i think there's to forget the bill like i think there's to forget the bill like i think there's so much power in meeting in person but so much power in meeting in person but so much power in meeting in person but it doesn't mean that we don't leverage it doesn't mean that we don't leverage it doesn't mean that we don't leverage every skill or uh tool we have today to every skill or uh tool we have today to every skill or uh tool we have today to further the mission so it's not an further the mission so it's not an further the mission so it's not an either or it's a both either or it's a both either or it's a both and if we do it well man we could see and if we do it well man we could see and if we do it well man we could see results like we've never seen before so results like we've never seen before so results like we've never seen before so talk about those results i'm kind of talk about those results i'm kind of talk about those results i'm kind of curious about this um using you know curious about this um using you know curious about this um using you know data i mean we're in the digital space data i mean we're in the digital space data i mean we're in the digital space so data is like so data is like so data is like we love data around here yeah i'm sure we love data around here yeah i'm sure we love data around here yeah i'm sure you do too so how do you guys how have you do too so how do you guys how have you do too so how do you guys how have you you know what would you say to you you know what would you say to you you know what would you say to churches when you're trying to figure churches when you're trying to figure churches when you're trying to figure out what those key metrics are and how out what those key metrics are and how out what those key metrics are and how do you how do you measure the results of do you how do you measure the results of do you how do you measure the results of your of your digital efforts sure your of your digital efforts sure your of your digital efforts sure i i think um you're right data it's it's i i think um you're right data it's it's i i think um you're right data it's it's so important and and in this world

so important and and in this world so important and and in this world there's so much of it yeah and so it can there's so much of it yeah and so it can there's so much of it yeah and so it can feel very paralyzing it can feel like i feel very paralyzing it can feel like i feel very paralyzing it can feel like i don't know what all i should track and don't know what all i should track and don't know what all i should track and how i should track things how i should track things how i should track things and and and this is where it does get i feel like this is where it does get i feel like this is where it does get i feel like this has been like the thorn in my flesh this has been like the thorn in my flesh this has been like the thorn in my flesh for many years because it's i see the for many years because it's i see the for many years because it's i see the importance of it i see the value of it importance of it i see the value of it importance of it i see the value of it but it's one of the hardest things that but it's one of the hardest things that but it's one of the hardest things that we've had to navigate because even the we've had to navigate because even the we've had to navigate because even the tools the platforms that are out there tools the platforms that are out there tools the platforms that are out there that maybe corporate uses that maybe corporate uses that maybe corporate uses there's not necessarily a lot of like there's not necessarily a lot of like there's not necessarily a lot of like crms that are built for the church or crms that are built for the church or crms that are built for the church or marketing software that's built for the marketing software that's built for the marketing software that's built for the church because most of those tools they church because most of those tools they church because most of those tools they have this end product that you're trying have this end product that you're trying have this end product that you're trying to sell and that will define the wind to sell and that will define the wind to sell and that will define the wind well in the church world well in the church world well in the church world the end product is life change and you the end product is life change and you the end product is life change and you can't measure that you know so it's like can't measure that you know so it's like can't measure that you know so it's like well you lose before you can even start well you lose before you can even start well you lose before you can even start so how do we figure out data points i so how do we figure out data points i so how do we figure out data points i think and this is i i i'm gonna keep think and this is i i i'm gonna keep think and this is i i i'm gonna keep saying it until i go blue in the face saying it until i go blue in the face saying it until i go blue in the face the biggest mistake that a church can the biggest mistake that a church can the biggest mistake that a church can make is do something because another make is do something because another make is do something because another church is doing church is doing church is doing i think that's been the temptation i think that's been the temptation i think that's been the temptation because they we tend to look at some because they we tend to look at some because they we tend to look at some other churches and go oh if they're other churches and go oh if they're other churches and go oh if they're doing it and they seem successful then doing it and they seem successful then doing it and they seem successful then we're going to do exactly what they do we're going to do exactly what they do we're going to do exactly what they do i can promise you most of those churches i can promise you most of those churches i can promise you most of those churches they have specific goals and and and they have specific goals and and and they have specific goals and and and specific things that they're working specific things that they're working specific things that they're working towards and the data that they track is towards and the data that they track is towards and the data that they track is based on the goals that they value you based on the goals that they value you based on the goals that they value you can take two different and i with with can take two different and i with with can take two different and i with with the friends i have currently the friends i have currently the friends i have currently that are in different churches we all that are in different churches we all that are in different churches we all track different things because the end

track different things because the end track different things because the end goal or the end win for us is different goal or the end win for us is different goal or the end win for us is different for some it might be for some it might be for some it might be you know around engagement it might be you know around engagement it might be you know around engagement it might be around small groups it might be around around small groups it might be around around small groups it might be around the number of people serving for some it the number of people serving for some it the number of people serving for some it might be reach it might be how how many might be reach it might be how how many might be reach it might be how how many people can we reach how how how wide can people can we reach how how how wide can people can we reach how how how wide can we cast this net both of those things we cast this net both of those things we cast this net both of those things are two different approaches can you do are two different approaches can you do are two different approaches can you do this can you combine them absolutely but this can you combine them absolutely but this can you combine them absolutely but the metrics you determine or the method the metrics you determine or the method the metrics you determine or the method metrics you choose will be determined by metrics you choose will be determined by metrics you choose will be determined by the goal you've selected first so the goal you've selected first so the goal you've selected first so instead of looking at all these other instead of looking at all these other instead of looking at all these other churches my advice would be churches my advice would be churches my advice would be look at look inside look at look inside look at look inside look at your church look at your look at your church look at your look at your church look at your ministry and go okay what are the things ministry and go okay what are the things ministry and go okay what are the things that we value value that we value value that we value value why were we why were we why were we when we launched as a church why did we when we launched as a church why did we when we launched as a church why did we launch what was at the heart of what launch what was at the heart of what launch what was at the heart of what what we were passionate about what we were passionate about what we were passionate about i promise you you can find an equivalent i promise you you can find an equivalent i promise you you can find an equivalent version of that it might not be exact version of that it might not be exact version of that it might not be exact but you can find a somewhat kind of an but you can find a somewhat kind of an but you can find a somewhat kind of an equivalent version of that online and equivalent version of that online and equivalent version of that online and then you begin to create a friend of then you begin to create a friend of then you begin to create a friend of mine she she calls us this you need to mine she she calls us this you need to mine she she calls us this you need to create a data dictionary where you create a data dictionary where you create a data dictionary where you create you identify the data points that create you identify the data points that create you identify the data points that you're tracking and why you're tracking you're tracking and why you're tracking you're tracking and why you're tracking them and what they mean them and what they mean them and what they mean one of the things that i one of the things that i one of the things that i had to navigate was obviously everyone had to navigate was obviously everyone had to navigate was obviously everyone wants to know attendance how do you wants to know attendance how do you wants to know attendance how do you track attendance and i to this day have track attendance and i to this day have track attendance and i to this day have not been able to find the equivalent of not been able to find the equivalent of not been able to find the equivalent of a like a physical attendance in the a like a physical attendance in the a like a physical attendance in the digital world yeah because

digital world yeah because digital world yeah because physical attendance is you're talking physical attendance is you're talking physical attendance is you're talking about a person that's sitting in a seat about a person that's sitting in a seat about a person that's sitting in a seat in a room in a room in a room in the digital space whether you track in the digital space whether you track in the digital space whether you track unique ip addresses or with facebook unique ip addresses or with facebook unique ip addresses or with facebook it's the three second the 10 second the it's the three second the 10 second the it's the three second the 10 second the one you know you've got all these one you know you've got all these one you know you've got all these different things it's it's very hard to different things it's it's very hard to different things it's it's very hard to find the equivalent of that it's almost find the equivalent of that it's almost find the equivalent of that it's almost like saying like saying like saying when someone's sitting in the seat at when someone's sitting in the seat at when someone's sitting in the seat at church church church if we could track how many times they if we could track how many times they if we could track how many times they were distracted how many times they were were distracted how many times they were were distracted how many times they were paying attention how many times somebody paying attention how many times somebody paying attention how many times somebody texted them and their mind like that is texted them and their mind like that is texted them and their mind like that is what people experience online because what people experience online because what people experience online because a notification can take them away and a notification can take them away and a notification can take them away and online you can track that in person you online you can track that in person you online you can track that in person you can't and so it's not equal so then what can't and so it's not equal so then what can't and so it's not equal so then what do we do i think you've got to identify do we do i think you've got to identify do we do i think you've got to identify as a church what do you value for us we as a church what do you value for us we as a church what do you value for us we did value people attending a service we did value people attending a service we did value people attending a service we did value small groups we did value did value small groups we did value did value small groups we did value serving we valued that they would come serving we valued that they would come serving we valued that they would come as often as possible we valued as often as possible we valued as often as possible we valued generosity so the metrics we tracked generosity so the metrics we tracked generosity so the metrics we tracked were around that we wanted to identify were around that we wanted to identify were around that we wanted to identify are people doing what we're leading them are people doing what we're leading them are people doing what we're leading them to do can we measure life change we to do can we measure life change we to do can we measure life change we can't but to the best of our ability we can't but to the best of our ability we can't but to the best of our ability we can measure the actions people take that can measure the actions people take that can measure the actions people take that to us to us to us would define what a fully devoted would define what a fully devoted would define what a fully devoted follower of christ might be so that was follower of christ might be so that was follower of christ might be so that was that was at you know kind of a basic that was at you know kind of a basic that was at you know kind of a basic level level level but let me if i have a quick moment i but let me if i have a quick moment i but let me if i have a quick moment i want to kind of harp on this thing too want to kind of harp on this thing too want to kind of harp on this thing too you hear the whole vanity metric thing you hear the whole vanity metric thing you hear the whole vanity metric thing and many people give that a metrics a and many people give that a metrics a and many people give that a metrics a hard time and i get it you don't want to

hard time and i get it you don't want to hard time and i get it you don't want to hang your hat on the top level number hang your hat on the top level number hang your hat on the top level number and pretend like oh that's how many and pretend like oh that's how many and pretend like oh that's how many people are part of my community but when people are part of my community but when people are part of my community but when you talk to somebody in marketing or you talk to somebody in marketing or you talk to somebody in marketing or advertising that is a valuable number advertising that is a valuable number advertising that is a valuable number because you can and you guys know you because you can and you guys know you because you can and you guys know you can do retargeting campaigns and you can can do retargeting campaigns and you can can do retargeting campaigns and you can market back to them if they've if market back to them if they've if market back to them if they've if they've seen your content you can they've seen your content you can they've seen your content you can connect with them in the future so the connect with them in the future so the connect with them in the future so the marketing person or the advertising marketing person or the advertising marketing person or the advertising person on your staff will value that person on your staff will value that person on your staff will value that number a lot higher than you may value number a lot higher than you may value number a lot higher than you may value it so depending on the team your teams it so depending on the team your teams it so depending on the team your teams might need might need might need different metrics to identify what different metrics to identify what different metrics to identify what they're tracking but all together i you they're tracking but all together i you they're tracking but all together i you will hope that you get to see a picture will hope that you get to see a picture will hope that you get to see a picture of the ministry impact and where you're of the ministry impact and where you're of the ministry impact and where you're going so going so going so um i again i know that's kind of a um i again i know that's kind of a um i again i know that's kind of a long-winded answer but it is a it is a long-winded answer but it is a it is a long-winded answer but it is a it is a little complex but chances are even if little complex but chances are even if little complex but chances are even if you don't have the expertise you don't have the expertise you don't have the expertise as the leader or the pastoral team as the leader or the pastoral team as the leader or the pastoral team there are things that you value in your there are things that you value in your there are things that you value in your church start asking questions and say church start asking questions and say church start asking questions and say hey i value this what metric do you hey i value this what metric do you hey i value this what metric do you think think think means the same thing and the more means the same thing and the more means the same thing and the more questions you can ask i promise you questions you can ask i promise you questions you can ask i promise you there's a lot of people today that can there's a lot of people today that can there's a lot of people today that can help you find an answer close to that help you find an answer close to that help you find an answer close to that well and i think the takeaway here is well and i think the takeaway here is well and i think the takeaway here is don't compare the two don't compare the two don't compare the two yes it's a dead end stop and just stop yes it's a dead end stop and just stop yes it's a dead end stop and just stop right now because it won't work yeah right now because it won't work yeah right now because it won't work yeah i think the most important thing is i i think the most important thing is i i think the most important thing is i think this is kind of where you're think this is kind of where you're think this is kind of where you're getting alan is getting alan is getting alan is determine what you think you need to be determine what you think you need to be determine what you think you need to be measuring in order to move the ball down measuring in order to move the ball down measuring in order to move the ball down the field and just be consistent in

the field and just be consistent in the field and just be consistent in measuring those things yes don't worry measuring those things yes don't worry measuring those things yes don't worry about what other churches are measuring about what other churches are measuring about what other churches are measuring don't worry about what someone else is don't worry about what someone else is don't worry about what someone else is deciding is a view or an online deciding is a view or an online deciding is a view or an online attendance or whatever just decide what attendance or whatever just decide what attendance or whatever just decide what your your your path your plan is going to be for each path your plan is going to be for each path your plan is going to be for each person that's engaging with your content person that's engaging with your content person that's engaging with your content online online online and then measure those things because if and then measure those things because if and then measure those things because if you measure those things over the long you measure those things over the long you measure those things over the long haul then you can see where you're haul then you can see where you're haul then you can see where you're either making progress or you're not and either making progress or you're not and either making progress or you're not and then you can iterate and pivot as you then you can iterate and pivot as you then you can iterate and pivot as you need to to get the results that you're need to to get the results that you're need to to get the results that you're ultimately looking for ultimately looking for ultimately looking for we're running really short here on time we're running really short here on time we're running really short here on time and and there's a whole lot more that we and and there's a whole lot more that we and and there's a whole lot more that we could actually discuss i actually have could actually discuss i actually have could actually discuss i actually have more notes and more questions to ask but more notes and more questions to ask but more notes and more questions to ask but i'm going to skip them because i want to i'm going to skip them because i want to i'm going to skip them because i want to pivot and give you a few minutes uh just pivot and give you a few minutes uh just pivot and give you a few minutes uh just to share to share to share about what it is that you're doing now about what it is that you're doing now about what it is that you're doing now you you you said earlier that after your you you you said earlier that after your you you you said earlier that after your your season at life church um that god your season at life church um that god your season at life church um that god has led you to try some new things so has led you to try some new things so has led you to try some new things so why don't you share with our audience why don't you share with our audience why don't you share with our audience what some of these new things are that what some of these new things are that what some of these new things are that you're venturing into these days yeah you're venturing into these days yeah you're venturing into these days yeah it's it's really been an incredible it's it's really been an incredible it's it's really been an incredible season and i think um you know it's it's season and i think um you know it's it's season and i think um you know it's it's it's it's interesting you know when you it's it's interesting you know when you it's it's interesting you know when you when you when you when you walk with god you think you know him and walk with god you think you know him and walk with god you think you know him and then all of a sudden it's like wait i then all of a sudden it's like wait i then all of a sudden it's like wait i didn't know this side you know it's like didn't know this side you know it's like didn't know this side you know it's like so what's really cool is so what's really cool is so what's really cool is it's it's it's it's it's it's it's one of it's a really meaningful it's one of it's a really meaningful it's one of it's a really meaningful moment for me right now because i'm able moment for me right now because i'm able moment for me right now because i'm able to see god in a new completely new to see god in a new completely new to see god in a new completely new different way and i'm able to experience different way and i'm able to experience different way and i'm able to experience him in a new different way past 10 years

him in a new different way past 10 years him in a new different way past 10 years have been incredible have been incredible have been incredible and when and when and when as i've transitioned into this new as i've transitioned into this new as i've transitioned into this new season season season really i just it it feels very not that really i just it it feels very not that really i just it it feels very not that i haven't had to walk by faith in the i haven't had to walk by faith in the i haven't had to walk by faith in the past past past this is a different way of walking by this is a different way of walking by this is a different way of walking by faith and i'm faith and i'm faith and i'm i i've been given the opportunity to i i've been given the opportunity to i i've been given the opportunity to just trust him and as doors open i walk just trust him and as doors open i walk just trust him and as doors open i walk through them and what's been interesting through them and what's been interesting through them and what's been interesting is a lot of churches have been reaching is a lot of churches have been reaching is a lot of churches have been reaching out and saying hey would you mind out and saying hey would you mind out and saying hey would you mind helping us out helping us figure out you helping us out helping us figure out you helping us out helping us figure out you know digital strategy and figure out how know digital strategy and figure out how know digital strategy and figure out how to do online ministry and and all of to do online ministry and and all of to do online ministry and and all of that and so it's been an incredible joy that and so it's been an incredible joy that and so it's been an incredible joy for me to partner with churches um here for me to partner with churches um here for me to partner with churches um here in the us and you um outside and just in the us and you um outside and just in the us and you um outside and just help them figure this out because it is help them figure this out because it is help them figure this out because it is complex and it's complex and it's complex and it's you know it you know it you know it we're all trying to figure this out we're all trying to figure this out we're all trying to figure this out i'm not an expert by any means i've i'm not an expert by any means i've i'm not an expert by any means i've probably made a few more mistakes than probably made a few more mistakes than probably made a few more mistakes than other people and so i can at least tell other people and so i can at least tell other people and so i can at least tell you hey i tried this it didn't work back you hey i tried this it didn't work back you hey i tried this it didn't work back then but hey we can try it again and see then but hey we can try it again and see then but hey we can try it again and see if it works um so so that's what i'm if it works um so so that's what i'm if it works um so so that's what i'm doing right now i'm partnering with doing right now i'm partnering with doing right now i'm partnering with churches and i'm helping them figure churches and i'm helping them figure churches and i'm helping them figure this out and it's really a joy for me this out and it's really a joy for me this out and it's really a joy for me because um i get and you guys understand because um i get and you guys understand because um i get and you guys understand this you as you see god working in this you as you see god working in this you as you see god working in different churches it's almost like you different churches it's almost like you different churches it's almost like you get a peek at the horizon and you get to get a peek at the horizon and you get to get a peek at the horizon and you get to see this beautiful picture of how he's see this beautiful picture of how he's see this beautiful picture of how he's working across the world and you see the working across the world and you see the working across the world and you see the different ways he's working and really different ways he's working and really different ways he's working and really with online ministry with online ministry with online ministry um i don't know how long we can say this um i don't know how long we can say this um i don't know how long we can say this but it is still blue ocean there's but it is still blue ocean there's but it is still blue ocean there's so many different lanes you could take

so many different lanes you could take so many different lanes you could take and so many different strategies so many and so many different strategies so many and so many different strategies so many different approaches different approaches different approaches um i'm i'm watching this like total um i'm i'm watching this like total um i'm i'm watching this like total rabbit trail but there's this i don't rabbit trail but there's this i don't rabbit trail but there's this i don't have you guys watch this thing called have you guys watch this thing called have you guys watch this thing called who killed the electric car who killed the electric car who killed the electric car um it's no i haven't but i want to watch um it's no i haven't but i want to watch um it's no i haven't but i want to watch that yeah so it's on amazon right and so that yeah so it's on amazon right and so that yeah so it's on amazon right and so because i was watching i was thinking because i was watching i was thinking because i was watching i was thinking like did you know who invented the first like did you know who invented the first like did you know who invented the first hybrid car and because there's a lot of hybrid car and because there's a lot of hybrid car and because there's a lot of similarity there with completely similarity there with completely similarity there with completely electric cars and hybrid cars electric cars and hybrid cars electric cars and hybrid cars it was late like 1890 or something when it was late like 1890 or something when it was late like 1890 or something when the first electric car was created and the first electric car was created and the first electric car was created and so this is not like a brand new thing so this is not like a brand new thing so this is not like a brand new thing but it's interesting to see but it's interesting to see but it's interesting to see how over time because of you know oil how over time because of you know oil how over time because of you know oil and gas and all that stuff how all of and gas and all that stuff how all of and gas and all that stuff how all of that was manipulated and so it just made that was manipulated and so it just made that was manipulated and so it just made me wonder like i don't think this whole me wonder like i don't think this whole me wonder like i don't think this whole leveraging technology and trying a new leveraging technology and trying a new leveraging technology and trying a new way of doing ministry is very new when way of doing ministry is very new when way of doing ministry is very new when we go back to acts and you look at the we go back to acts and you look at the we go back to acts and you look at the first church innovation was always a first church innovation was always a first church innovation was always a part of who we were as the body of part of who we were as the body of part of who we were as the body of christ the body of christ was never christ the body of christ was never christ the body of christ was never designed to be comfortable there was designed to be comfortable there was designed to be comfortable there was always challenges there was always always challenges there was always always challenges there was always persecution there was always trouble but persecution there was always trouble but persecution there was always trouble but the church was innovative i had a the church was innovative i had a the church was innovative i had a professor teach us this um the fish sign professor teach us this um the fish sign professor teach us this um the fish sign that people you know back in the day had that people you know back in the day had that people you know back in the day had that represented that was actually a that represented that was actually a that represented that was actually a code word for people so that they knew code word for people so that they knew code word for people so that they knew that you know who was a christian and that you know who was a christian and that you know who was a christian and who wasn't and he said in some way that who wasn't and he said in some way that who wasn't and he said in some way that was innovation and so when we look at was innovation and so when we look at was innovation and so when we look at churches today and we think man we're at churches today and we think man we're at churches today and we think man we're at the cutting edge like no one's the cutting edge like no one's the cutting edge like no one's innovating like we did no

innovating like we did no innovating like we did no i think the church historically has i think the church historically has i think the church historically has always been innovating there's always always been innovating there's always always been innovating there's always been a culture of innovation and so i been a culture of innovation and so i been a culture of innovation and so i believe that god's raising up men and believe that god's raising up men and believe that god's raising up men and women that are dreaming this up and women that are dreaming this up and women that are dreaming this up and trying to figure out what this you know trying to figure out what this you know trying to figure out what this you know how do we continue to reach more people how do we continue to reach more people how do we continue to reach more people and so for me it's a joy to be able to and so for me it's a joy to be able to and so for me it's a joy to be able to partner with them so partner with them so partner with them so i get to hear some cool ideas that you i get to hear some cool ideas that you i get to hear some cool ideas that you know that people are trying to bring new know that people are trying to bring new know that people are trying to bring new technology new products and so it's a technology new products and so it's a technology new products and so it's a fun season and i'm embracing it and also fun season and i'm embracing it and also fun season and i'm embracing it and also grateful for conversations like this so grateful for conversations like this so grateful for conversations like this so um it's it's a really cool time ellen um it's it's a really cool time ellen um it's it's a really cool time ellen you are you're very humble uh in you you are you're very humble uh in you you are you're very humble uh in you know your know your know your lack of willingness to call yourself an lack of willingness to call yourself an lack of willingness to call yourself an expert in this space um and and maybe expert in this space um and and maybe expert in this space um and and maybe expert isn't the right word but there's expert isn't the right word but there's expert isn't the right word but there's definitely a sense that you're a few definitely a sense that you're a few definitely a sense that you're a few laps around the track laps around the track laps around the track more than most people just because of more than most people just because of more than most people just because of the role that you played at life church the role that you played at life church the role that you played at life church and uh just the you know the front row and uh just the you know the front row and uh just the you know the front row seat that that you had to a lot of seat that that you had to a lot of seat that that you had to a lot of innovation that was happening in the innovation that was happening in the innovation that was happening in the church online space and so we want to church online space and so we want to church online space and so we want to encourage encourage encourage our listeners and our audience that if our listeners and our audience that if our listeners and our audience that if they're asking some of those hard they're asking some of those hard they're asking some of those hard questions about what the next steps are questions about what the next steps are questions about what the next steps are with their church about with their church about with their church about how to how to how to maximize their maximize their maximize their digital presence their church online digital presence their church online digital presence their church online experience online discipleship we want experience online discipleship we want experience online discipleship we want them to connect with you to ask the them to connect with you to ask the them to connect with you to ask the questions maybe there's a good questions maybe there's a good questions maybe there's a good partnership opportunity for you and the partnership opportunity for you and the partnership opportunity for you and the coaching and the consulting that you can coaching and the consulting that you can coaching and the consulting that you can do with churches to really help them do with churches to really help them do with churches to really help them take those next steps if people want to

take those next steps if people want to take those next steps if people want to get in touch with you if they want to get in touch with you if they want to get in touch with you if they want to ask you some more questions or find out ask you some more questions or find out ask you some more questions or find out if you are a good fit for helping them if you are a good fit for helping them if you are a good fit for helping them solve some of those problems how can how solve some of those problems how can how solve some of those problems how can how can they get in touch with you well um can they get in touch with you well um can they get in touch with you well um easiest way so i've got a website easiest way so i've got a website easiest way so i've got a website there's like one page on it so it's not there's like one page on it so it's not there's like one page on it so it's not like in-depth or anything but it has my like in-depth or anything but it has my like in-depth or anything but it has my contact information it's alan v contact information it's alan v contact information it's alan v george.com or you can email me at george.com or you can email me at george.com or you can email me at reachalandgeorge gmail.com so super easy reachalandgeorge gmail.com so super easy reachalandgeorge gmail.com so super easy um but yeah happy to chat uh if you want um but yeah happy to chat uh if you want um but yeah happy to chat uh if you want to you know share some stories i'd love to you know share some stories i'd love to you know share some stories i'd love to talk to them and we'll put those in to talk to them and we'll put those in to talk to them and we'll put those in the show the show the show yeah we'll put those in the show notes yeah we'll put those in the show notes yeah we'll put those in the show notes what's the v stand for in the allen v what's the v stand for in the allen v what's the v stand for in the allen v george it's part of our um family name george it's part of our um family name george it's part of our um family name i'm from kerala india and so uh the v i'm from kerala india and so uh the v i'm from kerala india and so uh the v stands for vetmanil which is where it's stands for vetmanil which is where it's stands for vetmanil which is where it's my father's my father's my father's um i guess parental um i guess parental um i guess parental name you know that house name so yeah name you know that house name so yeah name you know that house name so yeah okay well this will be very interesting okay well this will be very interesting okay well this will be very interesting for the lady who goes through the for the lady who goes through the for the lady who goes through the transcripts and cleans up the transcripts and cleans up the transcripts and cleans up the transcription of the podcast to figure transcription of the podcast to figure transcription of the podcast to figure out how to spell that out how to spell that out how to spell that you know special prize uh from uh this you know special prize uh from uh this you know special prize uh from uh this team if you can spell that name team if you can spell that name team if you can spell that name correctly so yeah there you go okay correctly so yeah there you go okay correctly so yeah there you go okay cindy you can just use a v and a blank cindy you can just use a v and a blank cindy you can just use a v and a blank after that we didn't really quite catch after that we didn't really quite catch after that we didn't really quite catch all that all right all that all right all that all right hey alan thanks again for taking the hey alan thanks again for taking the hey alan thanks again for taking the time to hang out with us today it's been time to hang out with us today it's been time to hang out with us today it's been a real pleasure huge blessing a real pleasure huge blessing a real pleasure huge blessing [Music]