Small Churches vs Big Churches Who Makes Better Disciples

If you want deeper disciplehip in If you want deeper disciplehip in church, smaller is better, right? Closer church, smaller is better, right? Closer church, smaller is better, right? Closer relationships, that's what we believe. relationships, that's what we believe. relationships, that's what we believe. Lifeway Research surveyed over 2,000 Lifeway Research surveyed over 2,000 Lifeway Research surveyed over 2,000 Protestant churchgoers [music] Protestant churchgoers [music] Protestant churchgoers [music] trying to answer this question, and the trying to answer this question, and the trying to answer this question, and the results were unexpected. So, today we're results were unexpected. So, today we're results were unexpected. So, today we're breaking down the church size breaking down the church size breaking down the church size disciplehip paradox and what churches of disciplehip paradox and what churches of disciplehip paradox and what churches of all sizes can learn from each other. all sizes can learn from each other. all sizes can learn from each other. Let's dive in. [music] Let's dive in. [music] Let's dive in. [music] Well, hey there and welcome to the Well, hey there and welcome to the Well, hey there and welcome to the ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm Brady Sher, your host. I'm joined as Brady Sher, your host. I'm joined as Brady Sher, your host. I'm joined as always by my co-host. We call him Bishop always by my co-host. We call him Bishop always by my co-host. We call him Bishop Bole. It's Alexander. Bole. It's Alexander. Bole. It's Alexander. >> Hello. Hello. >> Hello. Hello. >> Hello. Hello. >> And today we're continuing a >> And today we're continuing a >> And today we're continuing a conversation that we started on last conversation that we started on last conversation that we started on last week's episode where we identified this week's episode where we identified this week's episode where we identified this strange reality in the American church strange reality in the American church strange reality in the American church where most pastors lead small churches where most pastors lead small churches where most pastors lead small churches >> and most churchgoers go to comparatively >> and most churchgoers go to comparatively >> and most churchgoers go to comparatively large churches. Yeah. If you didn't large churches. Yeah. If you didn't large churches. Yeah. If you didn't listen to last week's episode, you listen to last week's episode, you listen to last week's episode, you should go back and listen to kind of should go back and listen to kind of should go back and listen to kind of understand how that all gets fleshed understand how that all gets fleshed understand how that all gets fleshed out. But it's like empirically, out. But it's like empirically, out. But it's like empirically, statistically true that like nine out of statistically true that like nine out of statistically true that like nine out of 10 pastors, was that the number? Pastor 10 pastors, was that the number? Pastor 10 pastors, was that the number? Pastor like a a a small church, 65, 75 people.

like a a a small church, 65, 75 people. like a a a small church, 65, 75 people. But yet most churchgoers attend churches But yet most churchgoers attend churches But yet most churchgoers attend churches that are larger than 500 people. That's that are larger than 500 people. That's that are larger than 500 people. That's correct. And so one of the things that correct. And so one of the things that correct. And so one of the things that that got me thinking about was the that got me thinking about was the that got me thinking about was the common narrative around church size that common narrative around church size that common narrative around church size that if you go to a large church, it's if you go to a large church, it's if you go to a large church, it's spectacle and spectacle and spectacle and >> it can be shallow. Whereas the small >> it can be shallow. Whereas the small >> it can be shallow. Whereas the small church has the reputation of being deep church has the reputation of being deep church has the reputation of being deep and there's intimacy and there's the and there's intimacy and there's the and there's intimacy and there's the relational closeness and that's why relational closeness and that's why relational closeness and that's why small church is so great. small church is so great. small church is so great. >> It was great timing because Lifeway came >> It was great timing because Lifeway came >> It was great timing because Lifeway came out with this research where they're out with this research where they're out with this research where they're basically trying to quantify disciplehip basically trying to quantify disciplehip basically trying to quantify disciplehip which is obviously difficult to which is obviously difficult to which is obviously difficult to quantify. So how did they go about the quantify. So how did they go about the quantify. So how did they go about the methodology? methodology? methodology? >> This comes from the executive director >> This comes from the executive director >> This comes from the executive director of Lifeway Research. quote, "Pastors of Lifeway Research. quote, "Pastors of Lifeway Research. quote, "Pastors know their congregations can follow know their congregations can follow know their congregations can follow Christ more closely." That's possible, Christ more closely." That's possible, Christ more closely." That's possible, but they often don't know the specifics but they often don't know the specifics but they often don't know the specifics of what areas of people's lives don't of what areas of people's lives don't of what areas of people's lives don't align with what the Bible calls us to. align with what the Bible calls us to. align with what the Bible calls us to. And this research provides a national And this research provides a national And this research provides a national snapshot of these details. So, what snapshot of these details. So, what snapshot of these details. So, what happened? They surveyed 2100ish happened? They surveyed 2100ish happened? They surveyed 2100ish Protestant and non-denominational Protestant and non-denominational Protestant and non-denominational churchgoers.

churchgoers. churchgoers. This survey was conducted in the first This survey was conducted in the first This survey was conducted in the first quarter of 2025 and they measured eight quarter of 2025 and they measured eight quarter of 2025 and they measured eight signposts. Number one, engaging the signposts. Number one, engaging the signposts. Number one, engaging the Bible. Number two, obeying God and Bible. Number two, obeying God and Bible. Number two, obeying God and denying self. Number three, serving God denying self. Number three, serving God denying self. Number three, serving God and others. Number four, sharing Christ. and others. Number four, sharing Christ. and others. Number four, sharing Christ. Number five, exercising faith. Number Number five, exercising faith. Number Number five, exercising faith. Number six, seeking God. Number seven, building six, seeking God. Number seven, building six, seeking God. Number seven, building relationships. And number eight, living relationships. And number eight, living relationships. And number eight, living unashamed. And what they did was, I unashamed. And what they did was, I unashamed. And what they did was, I suppose not too dissimilar from our suppose not too dissimilar from our suppose not too dissimilar from our church chaos score of 0 to 100, they church chaos score of 0 to 100, they church chaos score of 0 to 100, they gave churchgoers a score of 0 to 100 on gave churchgoers a score of 0 to 100 on gave churchgoers a score of 0 to 100 on their disciplehip. Now, these are all their disciplehip. Now, these are all their disciplehip. Now, these are all self-reported. So, you would say, okay, self-reported. So, you would say, okay, self-reported. So, you would say, okay, on sharing Christ, maybe I'm a five out on sharing Christ, maybe I'm a five out on sharing Christ, maybe I'm a five out of 10 sort of thing. of 10 sort of thing. of 10 sort of thing. >> How am I doing with humility? How will I >> How am I doing with humility? How will I >> How am I doing with humility? How will I uh uh uh >> I love to deny myself famously >> I love to deny myself famously >> I love to deny myself famously competent at denying self. competent at denying self. competent at denying self. >> Yes. And then they compiled all that and >> Yes. And then they compiled all that and >> Yes. And then they compiled all that and ranked it based on things like rural and ranked it based on things like rural and ranked it based on things like rural and urban urban urban >> and church size was one of the cross >> and church size was one of the cross >> and church size was one of the cross referencing uh points. referencing uh points. referencing uh points. >> And so coming out of that >> And so coming out of that >> And so coming out of that >> in the same way I think that last week's >> in the same way I think that last week's >> in the same way I think that last week's episode identified this strange math episode identified this strange math episode identified this strange math where you pastor a small church, you go where you pastor a small church, you go where you pastor a small church, you go to a big church and the two different to a big church and the two different to a big church and the two different versions of normal. What I think came versions of normal. What I think came versions of normal. What I think came out of this data was something that was out of this data was something that was out of this data was something that was equally interesting, strange, and equally interesting, strange, and equally interesting, strange, and perhaps unexpected.

perhaps unexpected. perhaps unexpected. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, let's get into our one, two, 10 big >> So, let's get into our one, two, 10 big >> So, let's get into our one, two, 10 big ideas. The first one, and this is the ideas. The first one, and this is the ideas. The first one, and this is the the headline, both extremes the headline, both extremes the headline, both extremes led the study. So, led the study. So, led the study. So, scores were not linear by size. Maybe scores were not linear by size. Maybe scores were not linear by size. Maybe what you would expect is that the what you would expect is that the what you would expect is that the smaller church, 50 or under, which was smaller church, 50 or under, which was smaller church, 50 or under, which was the smallest size, they had the best the smallest size, they had the best the smallest size, they had the best disciplehip scores. And then the bigger disciplehip scores. And then the bigger disciplehip scores. And then the bigger the church got, the worse things became, the church got, the worse things became, the church got, the worse things became, right? Because big church, especially right? Because big church, especially right? Because big church, especially the biggest churches, are going to be the biggest churches, are going to be the biggest churches, are going to be all about spectacle and the amazing LED all about spectacle and the amazing LED all about spectacle and the amazing LED walls and the stage and like amazing walls and the stage and like amazing walls and the stage and like amazing worship and really compelling preaching worship and really compelling preaching worship and really compelling preaching and then you just kind of leave. That's and then you just kind of leave. That's and then you just kind of leave. That's the story, right? the story, right? the story, right? >> You don't know anyone. How could you >> You don't know anyone. How could you >> You don't know anyone. How could you know anyone? There's too many people to know anyone? There's too many people to know anyone? There's too many people to know anyone really. know anyone really. know anyone really. >> What was actually true is that the >> What was actually true is that the >> What was actually true is that the highest scores was the church under 50 highest scores was the church under 50 highest scores was the church under 50 group which scored 69.3 group which scored 69.3 group which scored 69.3 and the churches of 500 plus which was and the churches of 500 plus which was and the churches of 500 plus which was the biggest group 69.5. the biggest group 69.5. the biggest group 69.5. >> Virtually the exact same score on both >> Virtually the exact same score on both >> Virtually the exact same score on both sides of the spectrum here.

sides of the spectrum here. sides of the spectrum here. >> Correct. The two extremes. Now, it's >> Correct. The two extremes. Now, it's >> Correct. The two extremes. Now, it's worth mentioning that the middle groups, worth mentioning that the middle groups, worth mentioning that the middle groups, let's say 250 to 499, which scored the let's say 250 to 499, which scored the let's say 250 to 499, which scored the lowest, was 66.1. lowest, was 66.1. lowest, was 66.1. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> So, we're not seeing a dramatic >> So, we're not seeing a dramatic >> So, we're not seeing a dramatic divergence, divergence, divergence, >> but it was measurable. And what's so >> but it was measurable. And what's so >> but it was measurable. And what's so interesting is that it wasn't linear. It interesting is that it wasn't linear. It interesting is that it wasn't linear. It didn't go all the way down. didn't go all the way down. didn't go all the way down. >> And so, I think what this suggests to us >> And so, I think what this suggests to us >> And so, I think what this suggests to us is that we at the very least need to is that we at the very least need to is that we at the very least need to challenge this idea of large equals challenge this idea of large equals challenge this idea of large equals shallow. shallow. shallow. And And And I guess as a pastor of a small church, I guess as a pastor of a small church, I guess as a pastor of a small church, what do you think? As a church goer of a what do you think? As a church goer of a what do you think? As a church goer of a large church, I'm like, "Yes." large church, I'm like, "Yes." large church, I'm like, "Yes." >> Yeah, of course. And I I alluded to it >> Yeah, of course. And I I alluded to it >> Yeah, of course. And I I alluded to it in our conversation last week that I in our conversation last week that I in our conversation last week that I think this idea we have, this um bias think this idea we have, this um bias think this idea we have, this um bias that some folks have towards large that some folks have towards large that some folks have towards large churches, we'll call them mega churches, churches, we'll call them mega churches, churches, we'll call them mega churches, needs to be challenged. And I'm glad for needs to be challenged. And I'm glad for needs to be challenged. And I'm glad for this data to to give us some context for this data to to give us some context for this data to to give us some context for challenging that bias because that story challenging that bias because that story challenging that bias because that story that we're alluding to, the large church that we're alluding to, the large church that we're alluding to, the large church is just shallow. That's like that that's is just shallow. That's like that that's is just shallow. That's like that that's not a regional conversation we're having not a regional conversation we're having not a regional conversation we're having here in Niagara. That's kind of just here in Niagara. That's kind of just here in Niagara. That's kind of just like the cultural story about uh like the cultural story about uh like the cultural story about uh churches of that size. And to look at churches of that size. And to look at churches of that size. And to look at this data and not see u a linear graph this data and not see u a linear graph this data and not see u a linear graph from like really effective disciplem at from like really effective disciplem at from like really effective disciplem at a small church size and really a small church size and really a small church size and really ineffective disciplem at a large church ineffective disciplem at a large church ineffective disciplem at a large church size to see that oh no they're both as size to see that oh no they're both as size to see that oh no they're both as far as these eight kind of signposts go far as these eight kind of signposts go far as these eight kind of signposts go and the self-reporting suggests they're

and the self-reporting suggests they're and the self-reporting suggests they're both both both virtually equally effective at making virtually equally effective at making virtually equally effective at making disciples. I think that really anchors disciples. I think that really anchors disciples. I think that really anchors our conversation about church size and our conversation about church size and our conversation about church size and in some cases pastoral care because as a in some cases pastoral care because as a in some cases pastoral care because as a pastor that's one of the things I love pastor that's one of the things I love pastor that's one of the things I love about a church my size is that I know about a church my size is that I know about a church my size is that I know everybody's name and not just their name everybody's name and not just their name everybody's name and not just their name but like I know a lot of what they're but like I know a lot of what they're but like I know a lot of what they're going through. Eugene Peterson famously going through. Eugene Peterson famously going through. Eugene Peterson famously said like he thought the the number for said like he thought the the number for said like he thought the the number for him was like 300. He's like I don't him was like 300. He's like I don't him was like 300. He's like I don't think that I could know more than 300 think that I could know more than 300 think that I could know more than 300 names and his church historically stayed names and his church historically stayed names and his church historically stayed around that size. a church of 500,000 around that size. a church of 500,000 around that size. a church of 500,000 2,000 people for one lead or senior 2,000 people for one lead or senior 2,000 people for one lead or senior pastor like you just can't know everyone pastor like you just can't know everyone pastor like you just can't know everyone by name but I think what we see here by name but I think what we see here by name but I think what we see here that even in in our idea about pastoral that even in in our idea about pastoral that even in in our idea about pastoral care that people can still be care that people can still be care that people can still be effectively discipled even if their effectively discipled even if their effectively discipled even if their senior leader in the community doesn't senior leader in the community doesn't senior leader in the community doesn't know their name that's really know their name that's really know their name that's really enlightening. enlightening. enlightening. >> Now just because the church smallest >> Now just because the church smallest >> Now just because the church smallest churches and the biggest churches had churches and the biggest churches had churches and the biggest churches had virtually identical scores doesn't mean virtually identical scores doesn't mean virtually identical scores doesn't mean that they arrived at those scores in that they arrived at those scores in that they arrived at those scores in equal ways. Small churches tended to equal ways. Small churches tended to equal ways. Small churches tended to have relational gravity. So they were have relational gravity. So they were have relational gravity. So they were among the highest in seeking God, among the highest in seeking God, among the highest in seeking God, obeying God and denying self, serving obeying God and denying self, serving obeying God and denying self, serving God and others, exercising faith, and God and others, exercising faith, and God and others, exercising faith, and living unashamed.

living unashamed. living unashamed. >> So I think a reasonable takeaway from >> So I think a reasonable takeaway from >> So I think a reasonable takeaway from this would perhaps be that close this would perhaps be that close this would perhaps be that close relationships relationships relationships can create visibility, accountability, can create visibility, accountability, can create visibility, accountability, and meaningful responsibility. I think and meaningful responsibility. I think and meaningful responsibility. I think that that's what we would all think that that's what we would all think that that's what we would all think about when we think of a small church about when we think of a small church about when we think of a small church because it's harder to disappear when because it's harder to disappear when because it's harder to disappear when everyone knows whether you showed up or everyone knows whether you showed up or everyone knows whether you showed up or not. Yes. And so it makes sense that not. Yes. And so it makes sense that not. Yes. And so it makes sense that downstream of that churches of 1500 downstream of that churches of 1500 downstream of that churches of 1500 would score higher on these specific would score higher on these specific would score higher on these specific signposts of the eight that the research signposts of the eight that the research signposts of the eight that the research studied. studied. studied. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But what is the perhaps inverse of that? >> But what is the perhaps inverse of that? >> But what is the perhaps inverse of that? Well, for churches under 50, 17% had Well, for churches under 50, 17% had Well, for churches under 50, 17% had participated in a domestic mission trip. participated in a domestic mission trip. participated in a domestic mission trip. 8% had participated in an international 8% had participated in an international 8% had participated in an international mission trip. And if you're looking for mission trip. And if you're looking for mission trip. And if you're looking for a deep dive into this data, it'll all be a deep dive into this data, it'll all be a deep dive into this data, it'll all be cited and sourced in the show notes. cited and sourced in the show notes. cited and sourced in the show notes. >> 41% of those with church >> 41% of those with church >> 41% of those with church responsibilities taught or facilitated responsibilities taught or facilitated responsibilities taught or facilitated Bible study. What is that anchored Bible study. What is that anchored Bible study. What is that anchored against? Okay, church under 50, 40ish% against? Okay, church under 50, 40ish% against? Okay, church under 50, 40ish% with church responsibilities with church responsibilities with church responsibilities teaching Bible, let's say, versus 58% teaching Bible, let's say, versus 58% teaching Bible, let's say, versus 58% of churches 250 to 499, 59% of churches of churches 250 to 499, 59% of churches of churches 250 to 499, 59% of churches at 500 plus. So that's a pretty at 500 plus. So that's a pretty at 500 plus. So that's a pretty meaningful gap meaningful gap meaningful gap >> between [snorts] leading others. And I >> between [snorts] leading others. And I >> between [snorts] leading others. And I think this is what we saw and would make think this is what we saw and would make think this is what we saw and would make sense the more you unpack it. The people sense the more you unpack it. The people sense the more you unpack it. The people that were going to the smaller churches that were going to the smaller churches that were going to the smaller churches had higher scores on individual had higher scores on individual had higher scores on individual disciplehip metrics where it's like I am disciplehip metrics where it's like I am disciplehip metrics where it's like I am focused on me and denying myself but focused on me and denying myself but focused on me and denying myself but they scored lower on the

they scored lower on the they scored lower on the >> leadership development mentoring how am >> leadership development mentoring how am >> leadership development mentoring how am I like creating opportunities for others I like creating opportunities for others I like creating opportunities for others to also develop and I guess that makes to also develop and I guess that makes to also develop and I guess that makes sense because there are just fewer sense because there are just fewer sense because there are just fewer people in the church. people in the church. people in the church. >> Yeah. and you're being led in a group of >> Yeah. and you're being led in a group of >> Yeah. and you're being led in a group of that size. Like the I I think I made the that size. Like the I I think I made the that size. Like the I I think I made the joke last week like the a a smaller joke last week like the a a smaller joke last week like the a a smaller church like that is just it is a small church like that is just it is a small church like that is just it is a small group, you know, it's just it's one group, you know, it's just it's one group, you know, it's just it's one group and so you're being led by maybe group and so you're being led by maybe group and so you're being led by maybe one pastor or two pastors and you're all one pastor or two pastors and you're all one pastor or two pastors and you're all kind of going you're all kind of doing kind of going you're all kind of doing kind of going you're all kind of doing the same thing at the same time. Whereas the same thing at the same time. Whereas the same thing at the same time. Whereas in a larger church, a lot of that in a larger church, a lot of that in a larger church, a lot of that disciplehip is segmented. You don't just disciplehip is segmented. You don't just disciplehip is segmented. You don't just have one senior leader steering the have one senior leader steering the have one senior leader steering the ship, but you have all of these small ship, but you have all of these small ship, but you have all of these small groups and Bible studies and this that groups and Bible studies and this that groups and Bible studies and this that and the other. that requires so many and the other. that requires so many and the other. that requires so many different leaders. Whereas in a small different leaders. Whereas in a small different leaders. Whereas in a small group maybe or in a in a small church group maybe or in a in a small church group maybe or in a in a small church rather, maybe you're not actually rather, maybe you're not actually rather, maybe you're not actually running small groups. So there isn't running small groups. So there isn't running small groups. So there isn't even an opportunity for you in a even an opportunity for you in a even an opportunity for you in a community of that size to lead a smaller community of that size to lead a smaller community of that size to lead a smaller group um in Bible study for example. group um in Bible study for example. group um in Bible study for example. >> Okay. So that paints the picture of the >> Okay. So that paints the picture of the >> Okay. So that paints the picture of the small church. lots of opportunities, small church. lots of opportunities, small church. lots of opportunities, perhaps superior opportunities than perhaps superior opportunities than perhaps superior opportunities than larger churches to develop yourself and larger churches to develop yourself and larger churches to develop yourself and for you to become more like Jesus for you to become more like Jesus for you to become more like Jesus because that's the focus and that's the because that's the focus and that's the because that's the focus and that's the emphasis and that's what a is available emphasis and that's what a is available emphasis and that's what a is available to you.

to you. to you. >> Perhaps less opportunity to lead others. >> Perhaps less opportunity to lead others. >> Perhaps less opportunity to lead others. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And to develop yourself into a person >> And to develop yourself into a person >> And to develop yourself into a person that can be a mentor. And I think that that can be a mentor. And I think that that can be a mentor. And I think that is like the ideal when we think of is like the ideal when we think of is like the ideal when we think of Christryendom, right? where at one point Christryendom, right? where at one point Christryendom, right? where at one point someone poured their knowledge and someone poured their knowledge and someone poured their knowledge and wisdom and hard learned lessons in the wisdom and hard learned lessons in the wisdom and hard learned lessons in the Lord into you and then you have the Lord into you and then you have the Lord into you and then you have the ability at some point to pass that on to ability at some point to pass that on to ability at some point to pass that on to either the next generation or someone either the next generation or someone either the next generation or someone else who's a similar chronological age else who's a similar chronological age else who's a similar chronological age but a different age in the Lord. Yeah. but a different age in the Lord. Yeah. but a different age in the Lord. Yeah. That's like you're describing the the That's like you're describing the the That's like you're describing the the journey of maturity and faith, right? journey of maturity and faith, right? journey of maturity and faith, right? like that we we ought not to just stay like that we we ought not to just stay like that we we ought not to just stay as children being given breast milk to as children being given breast milk to as children being given breast milk to use the image from from the apostle Paul use the image from from the apostle Paul use the image from from the apostle Paul but like you grow into maturity and you but like you grow into maturity and you but like you grow into maturity and you don't just grow into maturity of being don't just grow into maturity of being don't just grow into maturity of being fed but then you ought to grow to a fed but then you ought to grow to a fed but then you ought to grow to a place where like you're doing some place where like you're doing some place where like you're doing some leading you know Henry now in his book leading you know Henry now in his book leading you know Henry now in his book the prodigal son he uses that parable to the prodigal son he uses that parable to the prodigal son he uses that parable to paint three pictures like I am the paint three pictures like I am the paint three pictures like I am the younger son I am the elder son and then younger son I am the elder son and then younger son I am the elder son and then the third section of the book he's like the third section of the book he's like the third section of the book he's like maturity in faith in Jesus is realizing maturity in faith in Jesus is realizing maturity in faith in Jesus is realizing that I I am on a journey to becoming the that I I am on a journey to becoming the that I I am on a journey to becoming the father to like welcoming people home and father to like welcoming people home and father to like welcoming people home and not just being the child but but but not just being the child but but but not just being the child but but but leading children home and I think that's leading children home and I think that's leading children home and I think that's we're talking about disciplehip here we're talking about disciplehip here we're talking about disciplehip here right I think that's that's the journey right I think that's that's the journey right I think that's that's the journey that we all ought to be on is not just that we all ought to be on is not just that we all ought to be on is not just receiving not just following but also receiving not just following but also receiving not just following but also learning how to lead as well so that learning how to lead as well so that learning how to lead as well so that looking at this data you see for looking at this data you see for looking at this data you see for churches of the of my size the the size churches of the of my size the the size churches of the of my size the the size of church that I pastor we have possibly of church that I pastor we have possibly of church that I pastor we have possibly you could call it a blind spot um or or you could call it a blind spot um or or you could call it a blind spot um or or at least something to be aware of now at least something to be aware of now at least something to be aware of now looking at this data of like okay you

looking at this data of like okay you looking at this data of like okay you know four reasons We don't have the same know four reasons We don't have the same know four reasons We don't have the same opportunities, the same programming as a opportunities, the same programming as a opportunities, the same programming as a larger church. But it's important that larger church. But it's important that larger church. But it's important that we make opportunities for people to lead we make opportunities for people to lead we make opportunities for people to lead in this community. That's something for in this community. That's something for in this community. That's something for a pastor of a smaller church to really a pastor of a smaller church to really a pastor of a smaller church to really really hone in on after kind of really hone in on after kind of really hone in on after kind of considering this data, considering this data, considering this data, >> right? It's a structural reality of the >> right? It's a structural reality of the >> right? It's a structural reality of the church and you can be aware of what church and you can be aware of what church and you can be aware of what tends to come from that. It's not a good tends to come from that. It's not a good tends to come from that. It's not a good or a bad thing. It's or a bad thing. It's or a bad thing. It's >> it is >> it is >> it is >> a downstream reality. And it's funny at >> a downstream reality. And it's funny at >> a downstream reality. And it's funny at this table, we've talked about Alex this table, we've talked about Alex this table, we've talked about Alex being the pastor of the smaller church being the pastor of the smaller church being the pastor of the smaller church and me being the churchgoer at the and me being the churchgoer at the and me being the churchgoer at the larger church. larger church. larger church. One other version of this that I think One other version of this that I think One other version of this that I think about and Alex and I have spoken about about and Alex and I have spoken about about and Alex and I have spoken about privately many times is how he's the privately many times is how he's the privately many times is how he's the father of two boys and I'm the father of father of two boys and I'm the father of father of two boys and I'm the father of two girls. two girls. two girls. >> And when you become a parent, you don't >> And when you become a parent, you don't >> And when you become a parent, you don't get the choice as of 2026 on the gender get the choice as of 2026 on the gender get the choice as of 2026 on the gender of that child. of that child. of that child. And yet the fact that I parent two And yet the fact that I parent two And yet the fact that I parent two girls, one that is 11 and one that is girls, one that is 11 and one that is girls, one that is 11 and one that is four, has been very formative for me.

four, has been very formative for me. four, has been very formative for me. >> And the fact that Alex parents two boys, >> And the fact that Alex parents two boys, >> And the fact that Alex parents two boys, >> ages almost three. Yeah. >> ages almost three. Yeah. >> ages almost three. Yeah. >> Okay, great. I'm lagging by one year. >> Okay, great. I'm lagging by one year. >> Okay, great. I'm lagging by one year. >> Um, that's formative for him and both of >> Um, that's formative for him and both of >> Um, that's formative for him and both of our spouses. and how it's really our spouses. and how it's really our spouses. and how it's really interesting to think like okay like I'm interesting to think like okay like I'm interesting to think like okay like I'm just like living with three girls just like living with three girls just like living with three girls >> and how like that is going to have a >> and how like that is going to have a >> and how like that is going to have a structural reality and there will things structural reality and there will things structural reality and there will things that will come from it and things that that will come from it and things that that will come from it and things that are not coming from it are not coming from it are not coming from it >> and the things that don't come from it >> and the things that don't come from it >> and the things that don't come from it perhaps I need to be aware of those perhaps I need to be aware of those perhaps I need to be aware of those things you know it's always funny like I things you know it's always funny like I things you know it's always funny like I see this with our friends when one of my see this with our friends when one of my see this with our friends when one of my friends who has daughters comes up I friends who has daughters comes up I friends who has daughters comes up I like am pretty easy to like relate with like am pretty easy to like relate with like am pretty easy to like relate with them and then one of your boys comes up them and then one of your boys comes up them and then one of your boys comes up and the only thing I've ever done with and the only thing I've ever done with and the only thing I've ever done with your boys is like time to wrestle your boys is like time to wrestle your boys is like time to wrestle >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> The only thing your boys know for me is, >> The only thing your boys know for me is, >> The only thing your boys know for me is, "Oh yeah, Brad taught me how to do like "Oh yeah, Brad taught me how to do like "Oh yeah, Brad taught me how to do like the people's elbow." That's the only the people's elbow." That's the only the people's elbow." That's the only thing that, you know, he's contributed thing that, you know, he's contributed thing that, you know, he's contributed in my life. in my life. in my life. >> Let's talk about larger churches and >> Let's talk about larger churches and >> Let's talk about larger churches and their structural reality. their structural reality. their structural reality. >> We did have the highest overall score. >> We did have the highest overall score. >> We did have the highest overall score. Let's be honest, Let's be honest, Let's be honest, >> 69.5 [laughter] >> 69.5 [laughter] >> 69.5 [laughter] on a self-reported study.

on a self-reported study. on a self-reported study. >> Huge, >> Huge, >> Huge, >> massive difference. So, larger churches >> massive difference. So, larger churches >> massive difference. So, larger churches were among the highest in seeking God, were among the highest in seeking God, were among the highest in seeking God, exercising faith, and living unashamed. exercising faith, and living unashamed. exercising faith, and living unashamed. 21% of churchgoers in the larger 21% of churchgoers in the larger 21% of churchgoers in the larger churches study the Bible daily. 32% churches study the Bible daily. 32% churches study the Bible daily. 32% consumed the Bible teaching daily. That consumed the Bible teaching daily. That consumed the Bible teaching daily. That one was interesting to me. If you go to one was interesting to me. If you go to one was interesting to me. If you go to a large church, likely you've got a a large church, likely you've got a a large church, likely you've got a really good preacher and communicator really good preacher and communicator really good preacher and communicator >> because that tends to be one of the >> because that tends to be one of the >> because that tends to be one of the things that draws the crowds. And so you things that draws the crowds. And so you things that draws the crowds. And so you could even see that in the church goers, could even see that in the church goers, could even see that in the church goers, a third of them a third of them a third of them >> are consuming Bible teaching daily. So, >> are consuming Bible teaching daily. So, >> are consuming Bible teaching daily. So, does that reflect the desire of like does that reflect the desire of like does that reflect the desire of like those types of church goers to I like I those types of church goers to I like I those types of church goers to I like I just like listening to sermons. Every just like listening to sermons. Every just like listening to sermons. Every day I'm listening to a podcast of some day I'm listening to a podcast of some day I'm listening to a podcast of some Bible teaching and sometimes it's my Bible teaching and sometimes it's my Bible teaching and sometimes it's my pastor, sometimes it's other pastors. pastor, sometimes it's other pastors. pastor, sometimes it's other pastors. >> I think it it can be both end. I think >> I think it it can be both end. I think >> I think it it can be both end. I think it could reveal the appetite of that it could reveal the appetite of that it could reveal the appetite of that type of churchgoer. I think also type of churchgoer. I think also type of churchgoer. I think also inversely it could reveal inversely it could reveal inversely it could reveal >> the programming resources of a larger >> the programming resources of a larger >> the programming resources of a larger church. Like maybe that church has a church. Like maybe that church has a church. Like maybe that church has a daily Bible teaching podcast or some daily Bible teaching podcast or some daily Bible teaching podcast or some sort of resource that they're sort of resource that they're sort of resource that they're disseminating for each sermon series. disseminating for each sermon series. disseminating for each sermon series. they have some sort of curriculum that they have some sort of curriculum that they have some sort of curriculum that they're producing and releasing with they're producing and releasing with they're producing and releasing with sermon series whereas in a smaller sermon series whereas in a smaller sermon series whereas in a smaller church maybe those resources aren't as church maybe those resources aren't as church maybe those resources aren't as available.

available. available. >> So large churches broadly speaking were >> So large churches broadly speaking were >> So large churches broadly speaking were excelling because in the disciplehip excelling because in the disciplehip excelling because in the disciplehip space they had more capacity for groups space they had more capacity for groups space they had more capacity for groups for mentors classes missions leadership for mentors classes missions leadership for mentors classes missions leadership pathways. What it also meant was if pathways. What it also meant was if pathways. What it also meant was if churches of this size were intentional, churches of this size were intentional, churches of this size were intentional, they had the ability to manufacture they had the ability to manufacture they had the ability to manufacture spaces that would replicate or emulate spaces that would replicate or emulate spaces that would replicate or emulate what Alex described as the small church what Alex described as the small church what Alex described as the small church that's basically one small group in and that's basically one small group in and that's basically one small group in and of itself if you're 50 and under. of itself if you're 50 and under. of itself if you're 50 and under. >> Yeah. Like the place where you are >> Yeah. Like the place where you are >> Yeah. Like the place where you are deeply known, deeply known, deeply known, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Yeah. The interesting reality of that is >> Yeah. The interesting reality of that is >> Yeah. The interesting reality of that is that while a larger church could that while a larger church could that while a larger church could intentionally manufacture a space that intentionally manufacture a space that intentionally manufacture a space that looks like the smaller church, you can't looks like the smaller church, you can't looks like the smaller church, you can't really do that in the inverse. really do that in the inverse. really do that in the inverse. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Like a smaller church can't be like, >> Like a smaller church can't be like, >> Like a smaller church can't be like, "Well, today we're going to be a mega "Well, today we're going to be a mega "Well, today we're going to be a mega church church church >> just to test it out." >> just to test it out." >> just to test it out." >> Which is why we come to your church for >> Which is why we come to your church for >> Which is why we come to your church for trunk or treat, trunk or treat, trunk or treat, >> right? So then maybe that's >> right? So then maybe that's >> right? So then maybe that's >> we don't try and do it. We just come. >> we don't try and do it. We just come. >> we don't try and do it. We just come. >> That's the version. Yeah. >> That's the version. Yeah. >> That's the version. Yeah. >> Here's where things get really >> Here's where things get really >> Here's where things get really interesting. One of the other interesting. One of the other interesting. One of the other discoveries of this research was that if discoveries of this research was that if discoveries of this research was that if you were a part of a small group, you were a part of a small group, you were a part of a small group, your number out of a hundred was your number out of a hundred was your number out of a hundred was marketkedly different and it was one of marketkedly different and it was one of marketkedly different and it was one of the very few things the very few things the very few things >> that really stood out.

>> that really stood out. >> that really stood out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So if we think about church size and the >> So if we think about church size and the >> So if we think about church size and the difference, right, it was like difference, right, it was like difference, right, it was like >> under 50 69 points, above 500 69 points. >> under 50 69 points, above 500 69 points. >> under 50 69 points, above 500 69 points. Where's church in between? 66 points. Where's church in between? 66 points. Where's church in between? 66 points. Okay. like not that big of a difference. Okay. like not that big of a difference. Okay. like not that big of a difference. If you did not identify yourself as a If you did not identify yourself as a If you did not identify yourself as a person who's a part of a small group, person who's a part of a small group, person who's a part of a small group, you scored 60. So already like a bigger you scored 60. So already like a bigger you scored 60. So already like a bigger difference. difference. difference. >> If you went one or two times monthly to >> If you went one or two times monthly to >> If you went one or two times monthly to a small group, you scored a 67. If you a small group, you scored a 67. If you a small group, you scored a 67. If you went three or four times almost every went three or four times almost every went three or four times almost every week, 72. And if you went five or more, week, 72. And if you went five or more, week, 72. And if you went five or more, basically, yeah, we're going we're there basically, yeah, we're going we're there basically, yeah, we're going we're there every single week, every single week, every single week, >> if not more, you scored 74. Mhm. >> if not more, you scored 74. Mhm. >> if not more, you scored 74. Mhm. >> So what that means is the spread of >> So what that means is the spread of >> So what that means is the spread of points there is points there is points there is >> measurably bigger than between the >> measurably bigger than between the >> measurably bigger than between the churches. churches. churches. >> And so the takeaway was like >> And so the takeaway was like >> And so the takeaway was like >> maybe the most important question here >> maybe the most important question here >> maybe the most important question here is not how large our church is, but is not how large our church is, but is not how large our church is, but >> are you in a group? >> are you in a group? >> are you in a group? >> And groups might be the real catalyst >> And groups might be the real catalyst >> And groups might be the real catalyst that in a church of any size that in a church of any size that in a church of any size is what determines if disciplehip is is what determines if disciplehip is is what determines if disciplehip is happening on a large scale at a big happening on a large scale at a big happening on a large scale at a big church or on the smaller scale at the church or on the smaller scale at the church or on the smaller scale at the small church. Yeah. I think what that small church. Yeah. I think what that small church. Yeah. I think what that reveals is like the nature of that word reveals is like the nature of that word reveals is like the nature of that word disciplehip. You know, we probably disciplehip. You know, we probably disciplehip. You know, we probably should have had a disclaimer at the should have had a disclaimer at the should have had a disclaimer at the beginning of the show talking about beginning of the show talking about beginning of the show talking about like, yeah, disciplehip's a super like like, yeah, disciplehip's a super like like, yeah, disciplehip's a super like >> I had eight signposts.

>> I had eight signposts. >> I had eight signposts. >> Yeah. It's like it's a super spiritual >> Yeah. It's like it's a super spiritual >> Yeah. It's like it's a super spiritual thing. You can't really manufacture it. thing. You can't really manufacture it. thing. You can't really manufacture it. This, that, and the other. But I think This, that, and the other. But I think This, that, and the other. But I think we're we're now putting our finger on we're we're now putting our finger on we're we're now putting our finger on what is disciplehip? Oh, well, it's like what is disciplehip? Oh, well, it's like what is disciplehip? Oh, well, it's like apprenticing to Jesus. It's a it's apprenticing to Jesus. It's a it's apprenticing to Jesus. It's a it's learning how to learning how to learning how to have a rhythm of life that proves that have a rhythm of life that proves that have a rhythm of life that proves that you're a Christian and not just simply you're a Christian and not just simply you're a Christian and not just simply attending Sunday worship whether it be attending Sunday worship whether it be attending Sunday worship whether it be at a small church or a larger church. at a small church or a larger church. at a small church or a larger church. And it's groups um it's it's And it's groups um it's it's And it's groups um it's it's incarnational incarnational incarnational living amongst people beyond the living amongst people beyond the living amongst people beyond the gathered community on Sunday when the gathered community on Sunday when the gathered community on Sunday when the pastor or the preacher or the worship pastor or the preacher or the worship pastor or the preacher or the worship leader stands up and says, "Let's leader stands up and says, "Let's leader stands up and says, "Let's worship God." But it's it's the smaller worship God." But it's it's the smaller worship God." But it's it's the smaller stuff that's more anchored in daily stuff that's more anchored in daily stuff that's more anchored in daily rhythm of life rhythm of life rhythm of life >> that is discipling you and leading you >> that is discipling you and leading you >> that is discipling you and leading you along your apprenticeship to Jesus so along your apprenticeship to Jesus so along your apprenticeship to Jesus so that as you grow in your faith over time that as you grow in your faith over time that as you grow in your faith over time your life proves that you're a follower your life proves that you're a follower your life proves that you're a follower of Jesus and not just your church of Jesus and not just your church of Jesus and not just your church attendance. attendance. attendance. >> Yeah. Absolutely. The reason we called >> Yeah. Absolutely. The reason we called >> Yeah. Absolutely. The reason we called uh pastor Bishop Bole at the stop uh at uh pastor Bishop Bole at the stop uh at uh pastor Bishop Bole at the stop uh at the start at the top of the spot.

the start at the top of the spot. the start at the top of the spot. >> Thank you for like I don't have skin >> Thank you for like I don't have skin >> Thank you for like I don't have skin boils like boils like boils like >> not that I'm aware of. Uh, but Alex and >> not that I'm aware of. Uh, but Alex and >> not that I'm aware of. Uh, but Alex and his wife Rebecca host an annual seafood his wife Rebecca host an annual seafood his wife Rebecca host an annual seafood boil in their backyard and it was this boil in their backyard and it was this boil in their backyard and it was this past Friday. past Friday. past Friday. >> And >> And >> And it's an interesting intersection of it's an interesting intersection of it's an interesting intersection of people people people >> because Alex has a lot of different hats >> because Alex has a lot of different hats >> because Alex has a lot of different hats that he wears, a lot of different boils, that he wears, a lot of different boils, that he wears, a lot of different boils, frankly. [laughter] frankly. [laughter] frankly. [laughter] >> And so the people that show up to this >> And so the people that show up to this >> And so the people that show up to this are in many ways like a myriad, a mly are in many ways like a myriad, a mly are in many ways like a myriad, a mly crew of folks. And I mean maybe you can crew of folks. And I mean maybe you can crew of folks. And I mean maybe you can even talk about the homaly that you even talk about the homaly that you even talk about the homaly that you read. read. read. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> At the top on why this is like an annual >> At the top on why this is like an annual >> At the top on why this is like an annual tradition because I think it overlaps a tradition because I think it overlaps a tradition because I think it overlaps a little bit with what we're describing little bit with what we're describing little bit with what we're describing here of like just smaller groups. Now here of like just smaller groups. Now here of like just smaller groups. Now this is an annual thing. It's not like a this is an annual thing. It's not like a this is an annual thing. It's not like a weekly thing. We have many of those weekly thing. We have many of those weekly thing. We have many of those rhythms with our friend groups in rhythms with our friend groups in rhythms with our friend groups in different ways but this is one of those different ways but this is one of those different ways but this is one of those like annual things that you do um for like annual things that you do um for like annual things that you do um for reasons. reasons. reasons. >> Yeah. I think it's representative of >> Yeah. I think it's representative of >> Yeah. I think it's representative of this idea of deep knowing relationships.

this idea of deep knowing relationships. this idea of deep knowing relationships. You know, there's data to suggest that You know, there's data to suggest that You know, there's data to suggest that you can only have x number of deep you can only have x number of deep you can only have x number of deep knowing relationships. Anything beyond knowing relationships. Anything beyond knowing relationships. Anything beyond that is kind of like tertiary. And and that is kind of like tertiary. And and that is kind of like tertiary. And and for me as a pastor, it's and there are for me as a pastor, it's and there are for me as a pastor, it's and there are many pastors listening to the show, not many pastors listening to the show, not many pastors listening to the show, not just pastors, but like leaders in just pastors, but like leaders in just pastors, but like leaders in church, we occupy a very peculiar space church, we occupy a very peculiar space church, we occupy a very peculiar space where it it regardless of our church where it it regardless of our church where it it regardless of our church size, the there's a limit to the deep size, the there's a limit to the deep size, the there's a limit to the deep knowing friendships or relationships knowing friendships or relationships knowing friendships or relationships that we can have in our faith community that we can have in our faith community that we can have in our faith community for reasons. Um, and so for me, I have for reasons. Um, and so for me, I have for reasons. Um, and so for me, I have some deep knowing relationships with some deep knowing relationships with some deep knowing relationships with people in our church. And I have said to people in our church. And I have said to people in our church. And I have said to all those people at multiple times, like all those people at multiple times, like all those people at multiple times, like I really honor you for having the I really honor you for having the I really honor you for having the courage to have a deep knowing courage to have a deep knowing courage to have a deep knowing relationship with your pastor because relationship with your pastor because relationship with your pastor because that requires a lot of you and it that requires a lot of you and it that requires a lot of you and it requires a lot of me. requires a lot of me. requires a lot of me. >> But then beyond that, I have other >> But then beyond that, I have other >> But then beyond that, I have other friend groups, the people I work with, friend groups, the people I work with, friend groups, the people I work with, um, people I know from living here. And um, people I know from living here. And um, people I know from living here. And [snorts] when I take a step out of all [snorts] when I take a step out of all [snorts] when I take a step out of all the arenas, outside of my church, the arenas, outside of my church, the arenas, outside of my church, outside of my work, outside of other outside of my work, outside of other outside of my work, outside of other friend groups, and I think about the friend groups, and I think about the friend groups, and I think about the people who I journey with Jesus with, people who I journey with Jesus with, people who I journey with Jesus with, there are people from all those arenas there are people from all those arenas there are people from all those arenas that make up that group, which is why that make up that group, which is why that make up that group, which is why the attendance at that low country boil the attendance at that low country boil the attendance at that low country boil a is very intentional. Like that list a is very intentional. Like that list a is very intentional. Like that list doesn't change very often.

doesn't change very often. doesn't change very often. >> Um, and b it is who it is. You go there >> Um, and b it is who it is. You go there >> Um, and b it is who it is. You go there and you're like, "Oh, I know Alex knows and you're like, "Oh, I know Alex knows and you're like, "Oh, I know Alex knows these people from church and these these people from church and these these people from church and these people from work and these people from people from work and these people from people from work and these people from this other friend group." But when I this other friend group." But when I this other friend group." But when I welcomed everyone to the boil, I said, welcomed everyone to the boil, I said, welcomed everyone to the boil, I said, "Hey, when I think about "Hey, when I think about "Hey, when I think about the life we live and who we live it the life we live and who we live it the life we live and who we live it with, who we parent with, who we journey with, who we parent with, who we journey with, who we parent with, who we journey with Jesus with, who we just Yeah. who with Jesus with, who we just Yeah. who with Jesus with, who we just Yeah. who we live with. It's you all. And you all we live with. It's you all. And you all we live with. It's you all. And you all attend different arenas in the context attend different arenas in the context attend different arenas in the context of my life, me and Rebecca, our life. of my life, me and Rebecca, our life. of my life, me and Rebecca, our life. But you make up a whole of like this But you make up a whole of like this But you make up a whole of like this group of like 19 people um that group of like 19 people um that group of like 19 people um that irrespective of what arena you belong to irrespective of what arena you belong to irrespective of what arena you belong to in our life. This is this is our group. in our life. This is this is our group. in our life. This is this is our group. This is who and honestly who we're these This is who and honestly who we're these This is who and honestly who we're these are the people that we're accountable are the people that we're accountable are the people that we're accountable to, to, to, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> In the way that we these are our peers >> In the way that we these are our peers >> In the way that we these are our peers that we're accountable to in the way that we're accountable to in the way that we're accountable to in the way that we parent, the way that we live, that we parent, the way that we live, that we parent, the way that we live, the way that we talk, the way we spend the way that we talk, the way we spend the way that we talk, the way we spend our money, all those things. And a lot our money, all those things. And a lot our money, all those things. And a lot of our disciplehip to Jesus now to of our disciplehip to Jesus now to of our disciplehip to Jesus now to anchor it into this conversation occurs anchor it into this conversation occurs anchor it into this conversation occurs in that group. And I think that will be in that group. And I think that will be in that group. And I think that will be a familiar story to a lot of pastors who a familiar story to a lot of pastors who a familiar story to a lot of pastors who are listening, which is like, yeah, I are listening, which is like, yeah, I are listening, which is like, yeah, I call people to worship God every Sunday call people to worship God every Sunday call people to worship God every Sunday and I facilitate the disciplehip of and I facilitate the disciplehip of and I facilitate the disciplehip of people.

people. people. >> But I'm a pastor. I'm a church leader. >> But I'm a pastor. I'm a church leader. >> But I'm a pastor. I'm a church leader. And my disciplehip often happens outside And my disciplehip often happens outside And my disciplehip often happens outside of maybe small groups at my church cuz I of maybe small groups at my church cuz I of maybe small groups at my church cuz I know pastors who don't belong to small know pastors who don't belong to small know pastors who don't belong to small groups at their church because the groups at their church because the groups at their church because the pastoral kind of air, pastoral kind of air, pastoral kind of air, >> you know, it's difficult for uh lay >> you know, it's difficult for uh lay >> you know, it's difficult for uh lay people for lack of a better term who people for lack of a better term who people for lack of a better term who like want to be honest and vulnerable in like want to be honest and vulnerable in like want to be honest and vulnerable in a in a small group are like, "Oh, the a in a small group are like, "Oh, the a in a small group are like, "Oh, the pastor's here." pastor's here." pastor's here." >> And that's no fault of anyone. And so >> And that's no fault of anyone. And so >> And that's no fault of anyone. And so pastors often find their accountability pastors often find their accountability pastors often find their accountability and disciplehip somewhere else. and disciplehip somewhere else. and disciplehip somewhere else. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. [snorts] I mean, one of my closest >> Yeah. [snorts] I mean, one of my closest >> Yeah. [snorts] I mean, one of my closest friendships outside of work is one of friendships outside of work is one of friendships outside of work is one of the pastors at our [snorts] church and the pastors at our [snorts] church and the pastors at our [snorts] church and met him at a small group that he hosted, met him at a small group that he hosted, met him at a small group that he hosted, you know, 10 years ago. you know, 10 years ago. you know, 10 years ago. >> And so much of the disciplehip and >> And so much of the disciplehip and >> And so much of the disciplehip and formation that happens in my life formation that happens in my life formation that happens in my life happens with like the small group of happens with like the small group of happens with like the small group of people that work in this office. You people that work in this office. You people that work in this office. You know, we were talking about this last know, we were talking about this last know, we were talking about this last week and like the three things that I've week and like the three things that I've week and like the three things that I've been praying for this year, which I will been praying for this year, which I will been praying for this year, which I will not reveal not reveal not reveal >> cuz they're private. >> cuz they're private. >> cuz they're private. >> It's between you and the Lord. >> It's between you and the Lord. >> It's between you and the Lord. >> Exactly. Well, and and Alex because I I >> Exactly. Well, and and Alex because I I >> Exactly. Well, and and Alex because I I share that with Justin. I share that share that with Justin. I share that share that with Justin. I share that with Alex. I share that with people with Alex. I share that with people with Alex. I share that with people because like part of the accountability because like part of the accountability because like part of the accountability is like, "Hey, this is what I claim."

is like, "Hey, this is what I claim." is like, "Hey, this is what I claim." >> If you know that, then you have because >> If you know that, then you have because >> If you know that, then you have because you're part of this like small group a you're part of this like small group a you're part of this like small group a bit of a responsibility to if I ever bit of a responsibility to if I ever bit of a responsibility to if I ever drift from this like you kind of have drift from this like you kind of have drift from this like you kind of have to, you know, now I'm not saying you to, you know, now I'm not saying you to, you know, now I'm not saying you have to be a jerk about it, but have to be a jerk about it, but have to be a jerk about it, but >> being aware of those things that is what >> being aware of those things that is what >> being aware of those things that is what the small group facilitates. The smaller the small group facilitates. The smaller the small group facilitates. The smaller group allows you to be seen. And the group allows you to be seen. And the group allows you to be seen. And the more seen you are and what seems to be more seen you are and what seems to be more seen you are and what seems to be suggested here, the more frequently seen suggested here, the more frequently seen suggested here, the more frequently seen you are, you are, you are, >> the more through osmosis naturally that >> the more through osmosis naturally that >> the more through osmosis naturally that accountability occurs. And what's within accountability occurs. And what's within accountability occurs. And what's within that accountability that formation that accountability that formation that accountability that formation >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> comes. So let's talk about okay, I'm a >> comes. So let's talk about okay, I'm a >> comes. So let's talk about okay, I'm a smaller church. What should I be smaller church. What should I be smaller church. What should I be thinking about? I'm a larger church. thinking about? I'm a larger church. thinking about? I'm a larger church. What should I be thinking about? Okay. What should I be thinking about? Okay. What should I be thinking about? Okay. Smaller church. And we're going to Smaller church. And we're going to Smaller church. And we're going to couple like all of the if you weren't in couple like all of the if you weren't in couple like all of the if you weren't in the extreme of 50 or under on the low the extreme of 50 or under on the low the extreme of 50 or under on the low end or the extreme of 500 plus on the end or the extreme of 500 plus on the end or the extreme of 500 plus on the other end as this research study other end as this research study other end as this research study grouped. Don't worry, just think of grouped. Don't worry, just think of grouped. Don't worry, just think of yourself, ah, we're a smaller church. yourself, ah, we're a smaller church. yourself, ah, we're a smaller church. Ah, we're a larger church. Ah, we're a larger church. Ah, we're a larger church. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> smaller church. You want to protect that >> smaller church. You want to protect that >> smaller church. You want to protect that relational closeness. It's going to relational closeness. It's going to relational closeness. It's going to happen naturally. But as we all know, happen naturally. But as we all know, happen naturally. But as we all know, the smaller the group is, the more the smaller the group is, the more the smaller the group is, the more friction can occur, right? You see friction can occur, right? You see friction can occur, right? You see people frequently. The people you see people frequently. The people you see people frequently. The people you see frequently, you likely have the most frequently, you likely have the most frequently, you likely have the most friction with. You also likely have the friction with. You also likely have the friction with. You also likely have the strongest bonds, but they see you at strongest bonds, but they see you at strongest bonds, but they see you at your best and they see you at your your best and they see you at your your best and they see you at your worst. So, there's a responsibility worst. So, there's a responsibility worst. So, there's a responsibility there to protect that relational there to protect that relational there to protect that relational closeness because if you're not, I think closeness because if you're not, I think closeness because if you're not, I think actively protecting it, actively protecting it, actively protecting it, >> what could happen is it gets undermined >> what could happen is it gets undermined >> what could happen is it gets undermined and things become and things become and things become >> tense. Next, create leadership >> tense. Next, create leadership >> tense. Next, create leadership development pathways. We said that you development pathways. We said that you development pathways. We said that you couldn't as a small church like emulate couldn't as a small church like emulate couldn't as a small church like emulate a big church because you can't a big church because you can't a big church because you can't manufacture that size. But what you can

manufacture that size. But what you can manufacture that size. But what you can work on is intentionally creating the work on is intentionally creating the work on is intentionally creating the pathways to have that turnover of I'm pathways to have that turnover of I'm pathways to have that turnover of I'm new in the faith. I'm learning to I'm new in the faith. I'm learning to I'm new in the faith. I'm learning to I'm ready to pass on what I've learned in ready to pass on what I've learned in ready to pass on what I've learned in the faith. Creating those opportunities the faith. Creating those opportunities the faith. Creating those opportunities because it sounds like because it sounds like because it sounds like >> speaking generally the churches of that >> speaking generally the churches of that >> speaking generally the churches of that size tend to struggle with that more size tend to struggle with that more size tend to struggle with that more than the larger churches with more than the larger churches with more than the larger churches with more people and more resources. Expand people and more resources. Expand people and more resources. Expand opportunities beyond the congregation. opportunities beyond the congregation. opportunities beyond the congregation. Don't think of yourself as we are this Don't think of yourself as we are this Don't think of yourself as we are this insular group of 37 of 72. That's great. insular group of 37 of 72. That's great. insular group of 37 of 72. That's great. But now, what can you do beyond your But now, what can you do beyond your But now, what can you do beyond your church in terms of service, in terms of church in terms of service, in terms of church in terms of service, in terms of mission, in terms of mission, in terms of mission, in terms of >> charity? Yeah. And then finally, do not >> charity? Yeah. And then finally, do not >> charity? Yeah. And then finally, do not imitate large church programming imitate large church programming imitate large church programming unnecessarily. I think this is the trap unnecessarily. I think this is the trap unnecessarily. I think this is the trap if you're the smaller church to think, if you're the smaller church to think, if you're the smaller church to think, okay, well, okay, well, okay, well, >> if we're a larger church, we would be >> if we're a larger church, we would be >> if we're a larger church, we would be these would be the weak spots that we these would be the weak spots that we these would be the weak spots that we could be better at. Okay, the way to could be better at. Okay, the way to could be better at. Okay, the way to achieve that is through programming. achieve that is through programming. achieve that is through programming. Now, I don't think that's probably the Now, I don't think that's probably the Now, I don't think that's probably the way to achieve that. It is worthwhile to way to achieve that. It is worthwhile to way to achieve that. It is worthwhile to consider what the larger church is consider what the larger church is consider what the larger church is facilitating that you could facilitate.

facilitating that you could facilitate. facilitating that you could facilitate. >> Programming I don't think is the >> Programming I don't think is the >> Programming I don't think is the pathway. pathway. pathway. >> Yeah, I think you're right. >> Yeah, I think you're right. >> Yeah, I think you're right. >> All right. Larger churches decentralized >> All right. Larger churches decentralized >> All right. Larger churches decentralized disciplehip into smaller communities. disciplehip into smaller communities. disciplehip into smaller communities. There is surely larger churches that There is surely larger churches that There is surely larger churches that exist that do not score high on this exist that do not score high on this exist that do not score high on this that are leaning into the spectacle that that are leaning into the spectacle that that are leaning into the spectacle that are leaning into the Yeah. We come to are leaning into the Yeah. We come to are leaning into the Yeah. We come to church, we have awesome worship, we have church, we have awesome worship, we have church, we have awesome worship, we have an amazing compelling message and then I an amazing compelling message and then I an amazing compelling message and then I leave. Yeah. And there is no leave. Yeah. And there is no leave. Yeah. And there is no accountability whatsoever. So how do we accountability whatsoever. So how do we accountability whatsoever. So how do we manufacture the smaller spaces that can manufacture the smaller spaces that can manufacture the smaller spaces that can facilitate that accountability and facilitate that accountability and facilitate that accountability and knownness? knownness? knownness? Measure belonging and participation not Measure belonging and participation not Measure belonging and participation not merely attendance. The larger church, merely attendance. The larger church, merely attendance. The larger church, look at how this room is filled. That's look at how this room is filled. That's look at how this room is filled. That's outstanding. Are you tracking other outstanding. Are you tracking other outstanding. Are you tracking other things? Make pathways personal rather things? Make pathways personal rather things? Make pathways personal rather than just programmatic. And then than just programmatic. And then than just programmatic. And then finally, prevent abundant options from finally, prevent abundant options from finally, prevent abundant options from creating passive consumers. I have seen creating passive consumers. I have seen creating passive consumers. I have seen this in the church chaos scores that we this in the church chaos scores that we this in the church chaos scores that we have done. have done. have done. I am recording this the day before we go I am recording this the day before we go I am recording this the day before we go and visit some churches in person to and visit some churches in person to and visit some churches in person to record episodes of Church Chaos on the record episodes of Church Chaos on the record episodes of Church Chaos on the Brady YouTube channel. If you haven't Brady YouTube channel. If you haven't Brady YouTube channel. If you haven't seen them, go watch them. Church chaos.

seen them, go watch them. Church chaos. seen them, go watch them. Church chaos. It's where we visit churches in person It's where we visit churches in person It's where we visit churches in person and do these in person workshops with and do these in person workshops with and do these in person workshops with them. It's, you know, free for the them. It's, you know, free for the them. It's, you know, free for the church. We're not there to sell church. We're not there to sell church. We're not there to sell anything. We're there like, "Hey, you're anything. We're there like, "Hey, you're anything. We're there like, "Hey, you're willing to open your doors and for willing to open your doors and for willing to open your doors and for others to see what's happening here. others to see what's happening here. others to see what's happening here. Like, how can we work on things?" And Like, how can we work on things?" And Like, how can we work on things?" And sometimes, often times, the problem is sometimes, often times, the problem is sometimes, often times, the problem is not that there's not enough happening. not that there's not enough happening. not that there's not enough happening. It's that there's no clear priority. It's that there's no clear priority. It's that there's no clear priority. >> And so it's this abundant of options. >> And so it's this abundant of options. >> And so it's this abundant of options. This abundance of options where people This abundance of options where people This abundance of options where people are like, "Yeah, I guess I could do are like, "Yeah, I guess I could do are like, "Yeah, I guess I could do groups. I guess I could serve. I guess I groups. I guess I could serve. I guess I groups. I guess I could serve. I guess I could give. I guess I could attend the could give. I guess I could attend the could give. I guess I could attend the men's ministry. I guess I could men's ministry. I guess I could men's ministry. I guess I could volunteer as a referee at pickle ball volunteer as a referee at pickle ball volunteer as a referee at pickle ball night that's hosted at our church. Like night that's hosted at our church. Like night that's hosted at our church. Like there's just so many things like, yeah, there's just so many things like, yeah, there's just so many things like, yeah, I know nothing feels like so compelling. I know nothing feels like so compelling. I know nothing feels like so compelling. It doesn't seem like there's a great It doesn't seem like there's a great It doesn't seem like there's a great need in any of these spots. And so I'm need in any of these spots. And so I'm need in any of these spots. And so I'm just content like sitting on the just content like sitting on the just content like sitting on the sidelines. Not because I wouldn't be sidelines. Not because I wouldn't be sidelines. Not because I wouldn't be open to getting involved, but there's no open to getting involved, but there's no open to getting involved, but there's no clear like emphasis. And so, hey, I clear like emphasis. And so, hey, I clear like emphasis. And so, hey, I guess I never really thought about it. guess I never really thought about it. guess I never really thought about it. Yeah, when you ask me, I guess I could Yeah, when you ask me, I guess I could Yeah, when you ask me, I guess I could get involved. When churches focus and get involved. When churches focus and get involved. When churches focus and say, "This is the most important next say, "This is the most important next say, "This is the most important next step." And perhaps that becomes groups, step." And perhaps that becomes groups, step." And perhaps that becomes groups, right? Perhaps we look at this research right? Perhaps we look at this research right? Perhaps we look at this research and we say, "It's got to be groups."

and we say, "It's got to be groups." and we say, "It's got to be groups." This is what my church focuses on. Like, This is what my church focuses on. Like, This is what my church focuses on. Like, oh my goodness, we never stop talking oh my goodness, we never stop talking oh my goodness, we never stop talking about groups. We never stop creating about groups. We never stop creating about groups. We never stop creating different types of groups. Oh, you're different types of groups. Oh, you're different types of groups. Oh, you're against this group. We have another against this group. We have another against this group. We have another group. You're against that group. We group. You're against that group. We group. You're against that group. We have this group. You against that group? have this group. You against that group? have this group. You against that group? Fine. We have this group. MAKE YOUR OWN Fine. We have this group. MAKE YOUR OWN Fine. We have this group. MAKE YOUR OWN GROUP. [laughter] YEAH. But be a part of GROUP. [laughter] YEAH. But be a part of GROUP. [laughter] YEAH. But be a part of a group. [snorts] a group. [snorts] a group. [snorts] Next, every church has the ability to Next, every church has the ability to Next, every church has the ability to borrow from the other churches borrow from the other churches borrow from the other churches >> without copying mindlessly. >> without copying mindlessly. >> without copying mindlessly. >> Yeah. And so I think the question has to >> Yeah. And so I think the question has to >> Yeah. And so I think the question has to become like what at my church's size become like what at my church's size become like what at my church's size likely comes easy. likely comes easy. likely comes easy. >> Is that true? >> Is that true? >> Is that true? >> Because if it's not true in our church, >> Because if it's not true in our church, >> Because if it's not true in our church, what's preventing it? If it is true in what's preventing it? If it is true in what's preventing it? If it is true in our church, how can we just continue to our church, how can we just continue to our church, how can we just continue to protect it? protect it? protect it? >> And then on the other size other side, >> And then on the other size other side, >> And then on the other size other side, what in a church of our size is what in a church of our size is what in a church of our size is difficult? Yeah. We're aware that this difficult? Yeah. We're aware that this difficult? Yeah. We're aware that this is either a blind spot or just a weak is either a blind spot or just a weak is either a blind spot or just a weak spot based on the structural reality of spot based on the structural reality of spot based on the structural reality of our size. What can we do to shore up our size. What can we do to shore up our size. What can we do to shore up that weakness? that weakness? that weakness? >> Because what you wouldn't want are >> Because what you wouldn't want are >> Because what you wouldn't want are believers that are really strong in one believers that are really strong in one believers that are really strong in one thing and really weak in something else. thing and really weak in something else. thing and really weak in something else. We're always going to have different We're always going to have different We're always going to have different strengths. You know, some people are strengths. You know, some people are strengths. You know, some people are good at sharing Christ. Though it's good at sharing Christ. Though it's good at sharing Christ. Though it's interesting in this study, apparently interesting in this study, apparently interesting in this study, apparently none of us because it was the lowest none of us because it was the lowest none of us because it was the lowest thing across churches of all size.

thing across churches of all size. thing across churches of all size. Average average person was scoring about Average average person was scoring about Average average person was scoring about 50 on sharing Christ. But some people 50 on sharing Christ. But some people 50 on sharing Christ. But some people are going to be better at that than are going to be better at that than are going to be better at that than other things. We use an analogy in our other things. We use an analogy in our other things. We use an analogy in our company um called the Steph Curry company um called the Steph Curry company um called the Steph Curry paradigm. paradigm. paradigm. >> And the idea is that Steph Curry, this >> And the idea is that Steph Curry, this >> And the idea is that Steph Curry, this transcendent basketball player getting transcendent basketball player getting transcendent basketball player getting drafted out of this small school of drafted out of this small school of drafted out of this small school of Davidson, prolific shooter, Davidson, prolific shooter, Davidson, prolific shooter, >> no one could shoot the ball like Steph >> no one could shoot the ball like Steph >> no one could shoot the ball like Steph Curry, Curry, Curry, but he was so small people were like, I but he was so small people were like, I but he was so small people were like, I don't know if he's actually going to don't know if he's actually going to don't know if he's actually going to have an NBA career because he'll get have an NBA career because he'll get have an NBA career because he'll get exploited on the defensive side. Yeah, exploited on the defensive side. Yeah, exploited on the defensive side. Yeah, he'll score points and then he'll give he'll score points and then he'll give he'll score points and then he'll give up just as many points because people up just as many points because people up just as many points because people will bully him because of his size. And will bully him because of his size. And will bully him because of his size. And Steph Curry worked extremely hard not to Steph Curry worked extremely hard not to Steph Curry worked extremely hard not to be a great defender, but to be passable be a great defender, but to be passable be a great defender, but to be passable so that what he was great at could shine so that what he was great at could shine so that what he was great at could shine and it wouldn't his weaknesses detract and it wouldn't his weaknesses detract and it wouldn't his weaknesses detract from that. And so your church has to from that. And so your church has to from that. And so your church has to have that same kind of question. All have that same kind of question. All have that same kind of question. All right, naturally we're probably going to right, naturally we're probably going to right, naturally we're probably going to excel here. Great. Let's protect that. excel here. Great. Let's protect that. excel here. Great. Let's protect that. Let's keep doubling down on that because Let's keep doubling down on that because Let's keep doubling down on that because we're going to be great at that. But how we're going to be great at that. But how we're going to be great at that. But how can we shore up any of our weaknesses to can we shore up any of our weaknesses to can we shore up any of our weaknesses to make sure that we're not creating these make sure that we're not creating these make sure that we're not creating these really uneven imbalanced believers? And really uneven imbalanced believers? And really uneven imbalanced believers? And thus, if that's extrapolated over dozens thus, if that's extrapolated over dozens thus, if that's extrapolated over dozens and hundreds and thousands of people, an and hundreds and thousands of people, an and hundreds and thousands of people, an imbalanced type of church.

imbalanced type of church. imbalanced type of church. >> Yeah. As you're talking about that, what >> Yeah. As you're talking about that, what >> Yeah. As you're talking about that, what comes to mind from my perspective as the comes to mind from my perspective as the comes to mind from my perspective as the pastor of a smaller church is because pastor of a smaller church is because pastor of a smaller church is because it's easy to think, oh, the larger it's easy to think, oh, the larger it's easy to think, oh, the larger church does this, this, and this. church does this, this, and this. church does this, this, and this. talking programming and that's talking programming and that's talking programming and that's alluring and that's honestly um an error alluring and that's honestly um an error alluring and that's honestly um an error that a lot of churches will make like oh that a lot of churches will make like oh that a lot of churches will make like oh we just need more we need eight groups we just need more we need eight groups we just need more we need eight groups we need 12 groups we need to do trunk or we need 12 groups we need to do trunk or we need 12 groups we need to do trunk or treat for example but in my experience treat for example but in my experience treat for example but in my experience um employing new tools new tooling has um employing new tools new tooling has um employing new tools new tooling has actually been that that you see other actually been that that you see other actually been that that you see other churches larger churches using has churches larger churches using has churches larger churches using has actually been an avenue for disciplehip actually been an avenue for disciplehip actually been an avenue for disciplehip so for example like online giving I know so for example like online giving I know so for example like online giving I know a lot of smaller churches are still a lot of smaller churches are still a lot of smaller churches are still doing like just cash and check giving doing like just cash and check giving doing like just cash and check giving because they're smaller and that's how because they're smaller and that's how because they're smaller and that's how they've always done it and they can. But they've always done it and they can. But they've always done it and they can. But there are younger people coming to your there are younger people coming to your there are younger people coming to your church who have never had a checkbook church who have never had a checkbook church who have never had a checkbook and will never have a checkbook and and will never have a checkbook and and will never have a checkbook and probably don't carry cash. And so even probably don't carry cash. And so even probably don't carry cash. And so even just introducing a new tool like online just introducing a new tool like online just introducing a new tool like online giving can actually be a disciplehip giving can actually be a disciplehip giving can actually be a disciplehip pathway. It can get younger people in pathway. It can get younger people in pathway. It can get younger people in your congregation more it it can um your congregation more it it can um your congregation more it it can um reduce the friction for them to begin reduce the friction for them to begin reduce the friction for them to begin practicing generosity in your church.

practicing generosity in your church. practicing generosity in your church. Another example for us was like kids Another example for us was like kids Another example for us was like kids check-in. Our church is small. It's the check-in. Our church is small. It's the check-in. Our church is small. It's the same kids every week. We we didn't feel same kids every week. We we didn't feel same kids every week. We we didn't feel like we needed kids check-in until a new like we needed kids check-in until a new like we needed kids check-in until a new family came and they were like, "Uh, do family came and they were like, "Uh, do family came and they were like, "Uh, do you not have check-in?" And so they they you not have check-in?" And so they they you not have check-in?" And so they they exposed a blind spot for us. It was easy exposed a blind spot for us. It was easy exposed a blind spot for us. It was easy for us to use Planning Center to start for us to use Planning Center to start for us to use Planning Center to start using kids check-in. In fact, it's free. using kids check-in. In fact, it's free. using kids check-in. In fact, it's free. We're still on the free plan. It didn't We're still on the free plan. It didn't We're still on the free plan. It didn't come at a cost. Um, but the new tool come at a cost. Um, but the new tool come at a cost. Um, but the new tool made a new family more comfortable. They made a new family more comfortable. They made a new family more comfortable. They just exposed a blind spot for us. So, just exposed a blind spot for us. So, just exposed a blind spot for us. So, interestingly, for small churches, interestingly, for small churches, interestingly, for small churches, sometimes it's tooling, using new tools, sometimes it's tooling, using new tools, sometimes it's tooling, using new tools, different tools that can Yeah. make different tools that can Yeah. make different tools that can Yeah. make on-ramps for for either new expressions on-ramps for for either new expressions on-ramps for for either new expressions of disciplehip or remove hurdles for of disciplehip or remove hurdles for of disciplehip or remove hurdles for someone to take their next step in someone to take their next step in someone to take their next step in disciplehip. Final note I'll make on disciplehip. Final note I'll make on disciplehip. Final note I'll make on this is don't let whatever size you are this is don't let whatever size you are this is don't let whatever size you are feel like this is our destiny. feel like this is our destiny. feel like this is our destiny. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> I think one of the traps of even sharing >> I think one of the traps of even sharing >> I think one of the traps of even sharing data like this is it starts to define data like this is it starts to define data like this is it starts to define you. Seen this with like things like the you. Seen this with like things like the you. Seen this with like things like the inagram which Christians were like, inagram which Christians were like, inagram which Christians were like, "Yeah, horoscope for us. Great. We love "Yeah, horoscope for us. Great. We love "Yeah, horoscope for us. Great. We love it." it." it." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's like ah I'm a one so you'll have to >> It's like ah I'm a one so you'll have to >> It's like ah I'm a one so you'll have to excuse my behavior. excuse my behavior. excuse my behavior. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] Look, I'm a one, two, but that doesn't Look, I'm a one, two, but that doesn't Look, I'm a one, two, but that doesn't mean mean mean >> a Don't worry that I'm just a three.

>> a Don't worry that I'm just a three. >> a Don't worry that I'm just a three. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I'm a seven. >> I'm a seven. >> I'm a seven. >> I'm not going to be here anymore because >> I'm not going to be here anymore because >> I'm not going to be here anymore because I don't enjoy this type of discourse. I don't enjoy this type of discourse. I don't enjoy this type of discourse. >> You don't want to like typ cast yourself >> You don't want to like typ cast yourself >> You don't want to like typ cast yourself >> as an individual or as an organization >> as an individual or as an organization >> as an individual or as an organization and then let that one be an excuse or and then let that one be an excuse or and then let that one be an excuse or let it create an idea in your mind that let it create an idea in your mind that let it create an idea in your mind that it must it must it must >> be true for us because of this. >> be true for us because of this. >> be true for us because of this. >> Okay, great. like this is what is likely >> Okay, great. like this is what is likely >> Okay, great. like this is what is likely to happen in the average situation to happen in the average situation to happen in the average situation if it's just not considered whatsoever. if it's just not considered whatsoever. if it's just not considered whatsoever. >> But now you've heard this podcast and >> But now you've heard this podcast and >> But now you've heard this podcast and now you know if it's true or not about now you know if it's true or not about now you know if it's true or not about your situation. And now guess what? You your situation. And now guess what? You your situation. And now guess what? You have agency. have agency. have agency. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Your church has agency to make decisions >> Your church has agency to make decisions >> Your church has agency to make decisions and say we're going to intentionally and say we're going to intentionally and say we're going to intentionally work towards this work towards this work towards this >> because what we're describing for most >> because what we're describing for most >> because what we're describing for most that I would expect are responding is that I would expect are responding is that I would expect are responding is yeah. You know what? I don't really yeah. You know what? I don't really yeah. You know what? I don't really think about it, but by virtue of being a think about it, but by virtue of being a think about it, but by virtue of being a part of a church this size, this is kind part of a church this size, this is kind part of a church this size, this is kind of what's naturally happening. Okay, of what's naturally happening. Okay, of what's naturally happening. Okay, great. If that's what's going to great. If that's what's going to great. If that's what's going to naturally happen, then think, I want to naturally happen, then think, I want to naturally happen, then think, I want to create a different reality for our create a different reality for our create a different reality for our church. I imagine most of us are doing church. I imagine most of us are doing church. I imagine most of us are doing this. And think about your own marriage this. And think about your own marriage this. And think about your own marriage if you're thinking about an analogy.

if you're thinking about an analogy. if you're thinking about an analogy. Guess what? Most marriages would default Guess what? Most marriages would default Guess what? Most marriages would default to this, this, and this. Is that to this, this, and this. Is that to this, this, and this. Is that acceptable for you? Is that what you acceptable for you? Is that what you acceptable for you? Is that what you want for your marriage, or do you want want for your marriage, or do you want want for your marriage, or do you want something different? Because if you want something different? Because if you want something different? Because if you want something different, you'll probably something different, you'll probably something different, you'll probably have to intentionally work at it. The have to intentionally work at it. The have to intentionally work at it. The same is true for same is true for same is true for >> a church of any size. Yeah. >> a church of any size. Yeah. >> a church of any size. Yeah. >> So, don't allow data to become your >> So, don't allow data to become your >> So, don't allow data to become your destiny. destiny. destiny. >> Nice. Well, that's the best way to use >> Nice. Well, that's the best way to use >> Nice. Well, that's the best way to use data, right? Like the none of these data, right? Like the none of these data, right? Like the none of these factors are absolutes. They just kind of factors are absolutes. They just kind of factors are absolutes. They just kind of paint a picture. And what that does is paint a picture. And what that does is paint a picture. And what that does is it gives color to the conversations, not it gives color to the conversations, not it gives color to the conversations, not just the one that you and I are having, just the one that you and I are having, just the one that you and I are having, but the conversations that you're surely but the conversations that you're surely but the conversations that you're surely having at your church. If you're having at your church. If you're having at your church. If you're pastoring a small church, I'm familiar pastoring a small church, I'm familiar pastoring a small church, I'm familiar with the conversations you're likely with the conversations you're likely with the conversations you're likely having at your church. If you pastor a having at your church. If you pastor a having at your church. If you pastor a large church, I'm also familiar with the large church, I'm also familiar with the large church, I'm also familiar with the conversations you are likely having at conversations you are likely having at conversations you are likely having at your church. And so this data just gives your church. And so this data just gives your church. And so this data just gives color to that conversation, puts some color to that conversation, puts some color to that conversation, puts some context, and allows you to make context, and allows you to make context, and allows you to make well-informed decisions about what well-informed decisions about what well-informed decisions about what you're going to do with the resources you're going to do with the resources you're going to do with the resources that you have. that you have. that you have. >> Fair enough. Thank you for your >> Fair enough. Thank you for your >> Fair enough. Thank you for your listening. Thank you for your watching. listening. Thank you for your watching. listening. Thank you for your watching. Feel free to add your thoughts in the Feel free to add your thoughts in the Feel free to add your thoughts in the comments. What stood out to you? What comments. What stood out to you? What comments. What stood out to you? What feels true? What feels untrue? feels true? What feels untrue? feels true? What feels untrue? Whatever might be, whatever comments you Whatever might be, whatever comments you Whatever might be, whatever comments you might want to share. [laughter] might want to share. [laughter] might want to share. [laughter] Thank you for your time, attention, and Thank you for your time, attention, and Thank you for your time, attention, and trust. We'll talk to you next week.

trust. We'll talk to you next week. trust. We'll talk to you next week. Yeah, sitting at a desk for 8 hours a Yeah, sitting at a desk for 8 hours a Yeah, sitting at a desk for 8 hours a day is the bad [music] place. Like day is the bad [music] place. Like day is the bad [music] place. Like statistically, statistically, statistically, >> everyone online is like, "You should >> everyone online is like, "You should >> everyone online is like, "You should just smoke cigarettes." just smoke cigarettes." just smoke cigarettes." >> Maybe we should.