How to Communicate with a Stubborn Pastor

when your pastor won't listen here's when your pastor won't listen here's what to do we visit with churches all what to do we visit with churches all what to do we visit with churches all the time who have this as their number the time who have this as their number the time who have this as their number one challenge how to get through to a one challenge how to get through to a one challenge how to get through to a pastor who just won't listen to you so pastor who just won't listen to you so pastor who just won't listen to you so today we're talking through five today we're talking through five today we're talking through five different approaches that are effective different approaches that are effective different approaches that are effective without being manipulative importantly without being manipulative importantly without being manipulative importantly this works in churches of all sizes this works in churches of all sizes this works in churches of all sizes let's dive let's dive let's dive in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro Church tool show we're here to help you Church tool show we're here to help you Church tool show we're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years I'm communication shift in 500 years I'm communication shift in 500 years I'm Brady Sher your host I'm joined as Brady Sher your host I'm joined as Brady Sher your host I'm joined as always by my co-host his love language always by my co-host his love language always by my co-host his love language is acts of service his hate language is is acts of service his hate language is is acts of service his hate language is it's Alexander Mills hello hello I've it's Alexander Mills hello hello I've it's Alexander Mills hello hello I've spent the last couple of weeks in spent the last couple of weeks in spent the last couple of weeks in Southern California got to visit a Southern California got to visit a Southern California got to visit a couple of churches cool and one of the couple of churches cool and one of the couple of churches cool and one of the churches that I visited was a church churches that I visited was a church churches that I visited was a church plant 150 or so another church that I plant 150 or so another church that I plant 150 or so another church that I visited was a church that had been in visited was a church that had been in visited was a church that had been in the area for several decades recently the area for several decades recently the area for several decades recently new pastor was installed during Co and new pastor was installed during Co and new pastor was installed during Co and they have since seen dramatic growth as they have since seen dramatic growth as they have since seen dramatic growth as they changed leadership styles that they changed leadership styles that they changed leadership styles that church is running you know in the multi church is running you know in the multi church is running you know in the multi thousands each weekend and it's thousands each weekend and it's thousands each weekend and it's interesting because when you sit down interesting because when you sit down interesting because when you sit down with these leaders and we nice enough to with these leaders and we nice enough to with these leaders and we nice enough to share a meal with each of uh share of share a meal with each of uh share of share a meal with each of uh share of leaders from the team You observe leaders from the team You observe leaders from the team You observe challenges that are different with challenges that are different with challenges that are different with different Church sizes and yet One Thing different Church sizes and yet One Thing different Church sizes and yet One Thing Remains the Same there are struggles Remains the Same there are struggles Remains the Same there are struggles that are Universal to all churches one that are Universal to all churches one that are Universal to all churches one such struggle is getting senior such struggle is getting senior such struggle is getting senior leadership on board with your ideas and leadership on board with your ideas and leadership on board with your ideas and so that's what we want to tackle on so that's what we want to tackle on so that's what we want to tackle on today's podcast in terms of differing today's podcast in terms of differing today's podcast in terms of differing challenges you know example from the challenges you know example from the challenges you know example from the conversations that I had smaller conversations that I had smaller conversations that I had smaller churches they often struggle with you

churches they often struggle with you churches they often struggle with you know just generating momentum or they're know just generating momentum or they're know just generating momentum or they're seeing momentum but they're still in seeing momentum but they're still in seeing momentum but they're still in that phase where they're pushing the that phase where they're pushing the that phase where they're pushing the boulder up the hill a little bit and boulder up the hill a little bit and boulder up the hill a little bit and then you have the other side with a then you have the other side with a then you have the other side with a church that had done that for decades or church that had done that for decades or church that had done that for decades or many seasons and now they're in the many seasons and now they're in the many seasons and now they're in the period where to change metaphors it's no period where to change metaphors it's no period where to change metaphors it's no longer a boulder it's a snowball it's longer a boulder it's a snowball it's longer a boulder it's a snowball it's going down the hill famously lots of going down the hill famously lots of going down the hill famously lots of snow it's SoCal going down the hill and snow it's SoCal going down the hill and snow it's SoCal going down the hill and it's accumulating so much momentum that it's accumulating so much momentum that it's accumulating so much momentum that you look internally at your systems and you look internally at your systems and you look internally at your systems and it's just chaos man it is so great there it's just chaos man it is so great there it's just chaos man it is so great there is so much life change happening there is so much life change happening there is so much life change happening there is just this this feeling of is just this this feeling of is just this this feeling of effervescence when you step on the effervescence when you step on the effervescence when you step on the campus because of the electric energy campus because of the electric energy campus because of the electric energy but at the same time like wow nothing is but at the same time like wow nothing is but at the same time like wow nothing is working behind the scenes as smoothly as working behind the scenes as smoothly as working behind the scenes as smoothly as we would like things used to work so we would like things used to work so we would like things used to work so smoothly yeah because there were fewer smoothly yeah because there were fewer smoothly yeah because there were fewer people and so we could exert just kind people and so we could exert just kind people and so we could exert just kind of like White Knuckle energy to keep all of like White Knuckle energy to keep all of like White Knuckle energy to keep all of the chaos within boundaries and now of the chaos within boundaries and now of the chaos within boundaries and now there's just so many people and it's there's just so many people and it's there's just so many people and it's just all falling apart so challenges just all falling apart so challenges just all falling apart so challenges different sizes of churches different different sizes of churches different different sizes of churches different seasons and yet the problem of people seasons and yet the problem of people seasons and yet the problem of people like like like you your leadership remains so we're you your leadership remains so we're you your leadership remains so we're going to talk through some solutions going to talk through some solutions going to talk through some solutions we've got five of these Solutions all we've got five of these Solutions all we've got five of these Solutions all inspired by the conversations that I had inspired by the conversations that I had inspired by the conversations that I had with these churches we've talked about with these churches we've talked about with these churches we've talked about this before maybe not every single this before maybe not every single this before maybe not every single solution in here we've talked about ad solution in here we've talked about ad solution in here we've talked about ad nauseum at length and yet these are the nauseum at length and yet these are the nauseum at length and yet these are the conversations that come up again and conversations that come up again and conversations that come up again and again it's these again it's these again it's these interpersonal discussions and challenges interpersonal discussions and challenges interpersonal discussions and challenges so let's get into into the very first so let's get into into the very first so let's get into into the very first framework first one the principle of

framework first one the principle of framework first one the principle of congruency in all the things we're about congruency in all the things we're about congruency in all the things we're about to discuss convincing your pastor is not to discuss convincing your pastor is not to discuss convincing your pastor is not about tricking them into seeing things about tricking them into seeing things about tricking them into seeing things your way or manipulating them into your way or manipulating them into your way or manipulating them into getting what you want that's the last getting what you want that's the last getting what you want that's the last thing that we are pursuing here what thing that we are pursuing here what thing that we are pursuing here what we're pursuing is fulfillment of mission we're pursuing is fulfillment of mission we're pursuing is fulfillment of mission and in a perfect world it would be your and in a perfect world it would be your and in a perfect world it would be your senior leader who is the greatest senior leader who is the greatest senior leader who is the greatest champion of the mission but we are all champion of the mission but we are all champion of the mission but we are all humans and what happens is invariably we humans and what happens is invariably we humans and what happens is invariably we put our own interests ahead of the put our own interests ahead of the put our own interests ahead of the mission sometimes without even knowing mission sometimes without even knowing mission sometimes without even knowing it or perhaps more likely we might even it or perhaps more likely we might even it or perhaps more likely we might even put our own limits ahead of the mission put our own limits ahead of the mission put our own limits ahead of the mission ideally we could do this but my limits ideally we could do this but my limits ideally we could do this but my limits are as such and so we cannot or ideally are as such and so we cannot or ideally are as such and so we cannot or ideally we would do this but the resources don't we would do this but the resources don't we would do this but the resources don't afford this or a pastor might just be afford this or a pastor might just be afford this or a pastor might just be speaking a different language than you speaking a different language than you speaking a different language than you are and you know in our most recent are and you know in our most recent are and you know in our most recent episode we talked with Ryan Burch and we episode we talked with Ryan Burch and we episode we talked with Ryan Burch and we discussed the only growing denomination discussed the only growing denomination discussed the only growing denomination in the American church that being AOG in the American church that being AOG in the American church that being AOG and then non- denom it's funny I talked and then non- denom it's funny I talked and then non- denom it's funny I talked to both these churches like so what to both these churches like so what to both these churches like so what denomination well we got a Roots but denomination well we got a Roots but denomination well we got a Roots but we're not anymore we're not it was all we're not anymore we're not it was all we're not anymore we're not it was all kind of the same thing and the idea is kind of the same thing and the idea is kind of the same thing and the idea is like there's this one type of church like there's this one type of church like there's this one type of church that's growing the interesting thing is that's growing the interesting thing is that's growing the interesting thing is that the ages of Pastors in these that the ages of Pastors in these that the ages of Pastors in these churches is also growing in the wrong churches is also growing in the wrong churches is also growing in the wrong direction meaning Church pastors are direction meaning Church pastors are direction meaning Church pastors are getting older and they're not being getting older and they're not being getting older and they're not being replaced and the average age is like replaced and the average age is like replaced and the average age is like upper 50s and so if you have people in upper 50s and so if you have people in upper 50s and so if you have people in church that are listening to this church that are listening to this church that are listening to this episode likely they're maybe in our age

episode likely they're maybe in our age episode likely they're maybe in our age range right and so you have two range right and so you have two range right and so you have two different eras of people that grew up in different eras of people that grew up in different eras of people that grew up in different times and now they're trying different times and now they're trying different times and now they're trying to speak and Tackle these issues where to speak and Tackle these issues where to speak and Tackle these issues where sometimes you just don't have the same sometimes you just don't have the same sometimes you just don't have the same language yeah and so the principle that language yeah and so the principle that language yeah and so the principle that I always put forth is this idea of I always put forth is this idea of I always put forth is this idea of congruency because what interestingly congruency because what interestingly congruency because what interestingly happens is pastors will treat the pulpit happens is pastors will treat the pulpit happens is pastors will treat the pulpit one way and they'll treat digital in one way and they'll treat digital in one way and they'll treat digital in different way so here's one example that different way so here's one example that different way so here's one example that happens again and again a pastor will happens again and again a pastor will happens again and again a pastor will say I don't want to be on social media say I don't want to be on social media say I don't want to be on social media front and center very much if at all front and center very much if at all front and center very much if at all because it gives off the feeling that I because it gives off the feeling that I because it gives off the feeling that I want to be the person front and center want to be the person front and center want to be the person front and center put the spotlight on me I'm the pastor put the spotlight on me I'm the pastor put the spotlight on me I'm the pastor I'm the most important person and then I'm the most important person and then I'm the most important person and then I'll say to them okay or they'll say I'll say to them okay or they'll say I'll say to them okay or they'll say like oh I'm not I'm not good at that like oh I'm not I'm not good at that like oh I'm not I'm not good at that sure you know which I think is just an sure you know which I think is just an sure you know which I think is just an excuse right they say these things and excuse right they say these things and excuse right they say these things and then you'll say okay but if you look at then you'll say okay but if you look at then you'll say okay but if you look at the programming of our service the the programming of our service the the programming of our service the greatest portion of time is spent with a greatest portion of time is spent with a greatest portion of time is spent with a singular person on stage with a literal singular person on stage with a literal singular person on stage with a literal Spotlight on them yeah and so you are Spotlight on them yeah and so you are Spotlight on them yeah and so you are good at that you are good at public good at that you are good at public good at that you are good at public speaking you are good at being in front speaking you are good at being in front speaking you are good at being in front of speaking to a crowd speaking to an of speaking to a crowd speaking to an of speaking to a crowd speaking to an audience so in the uh the attempt for audience so in the uh the attempt for audience so in the uh the attempt for congruency this is what we're talking congruency this is what we're talking congruency this is what we're talking about here right there's the skill about here right there's the skill about here right there's the skill congruency and then there's also the congruency and then there's also the congruency and then there's also the missional congruency it would actually missional congruency it would actually missional congruency it would actually be in congruent for you to not be be in congruent for you to not be be in congruent for you to not be present on social because at the end of present on social because at the end of present on social because at the end of the day we want people coming into our the day we want people coming into our the day we want people coming into our churches to experience life change churches to experience life change churches to experience life change online is a gateway for inperson and so online is a gateway for inperson and so online is a gateway for inperson and so if online looks dramatically different if online looks dramatically different if online looks dramatically different than in person we're actually doing a than in person we're actually doing a than in person we're actually doing a disservice to the church yeah because

disservice to the church yeah because disservice to the church yeah because we're not providing people with the we're not providing people with the we're not providing people with the right accurate First Impressions and so right accurate First Impressions and so right accurate First Impressions and so in this conversation with a pastor I in this conversation with a pastor I in this conversation with a pastor I always try to get back to congruency always try to get back to congruency always try to get back to congruency because what it can do is it can help because what it can do is it can help because what it can do is it can help them have these Eureka moments where them have these Eureka moments where them have these Eureka moments where they realize oh okay if we're doing this they realize oh okay if we're doing this they realize oh okay if we're doing this in person one way it would make sense to in person one way it would make sense to in person one way it would make sense to do it online in the same way that do it online in the same way that do it online in the same way that doesn't mean we must it the same way but doesn't mean we must it the same way but doesn't mean we must it the same way but at the very least we have to interrogate at the very least we have to interrogate at the very least we have to interrogate why we would not do it the same way and why we would not do it the same way and why we would not do it the same way and now we can start to peel back the layers now we can start to peel back the layers now we can start to peel back the layers of the onion to see that maybe it's not of the onion to see that maybe it's not of the onion to see that maybe it's not about Mission but it's about method and about Mission but it's about method and about Mission but it's about method and at the end of the day it's always at the end of the day it's always at the end of the day it's always Mission over method you know when we Mission over method you know when we Mission over method you know when we talk about church Eugene Peterson talk about church Eugene Peterson talk about church Eugene Peterson famously says uh when asked how to pick famously says uh when asked how to pick famously says uh when asked how to pick a church he says we'll pick one and stay a church he says we'll pick one and stay a church he says we'll pick one and stay because he he pastored long enough to because he he pastored long enough to because he he pastored long enough to know that like churches are are know that like churches are are know that like churches are are inevitably made up of people and so the inevitably made up of people and so the inevitably made up of people and so the same same same interpersonal um conflict or struggles interpersonal um conflict or struggles interpersonal um conflict or struggles or things that you're going to have to or things that you're going to have to or things that you're going to have to navigate at one Church you're going to navigate at one Church you're going to navigate at one Church you're going to have to navigate at every other church have to navigate at every other church have to navigate at every other church because churches are just at the end of because churches are just at the end of because churches are just at the end of the day they are made up of people and the day they are made up of people and the day they are made up of people and so when it comes to um working with so when it comes to um working with so when it comes to um working with senior leadership and having these senior leadership and having these senior leadership and having these conversations it's that that's what's conversations it's that that's what's conversations it's that that's what's imperative there is acknowledging that imperative there is acknowledging that imperative there is acknowledging that this is interpersonal communication um this is interpersonal communication um this is interpersonal communication um at the base layer and then because we at the base layer and then because we at the base layer and then because we belong to an organization a church that belong to an organization a church that belong to an organization a church that has that very likely has uh explicit has that very likely has uh explicit has that very likely has uh explicit Mission and and vision mission and Mission and and vision mission and Mission and and vision mission and values we can always in an effort to to values we can always in an effort to to values we can always in an effort to to find congruency we can always tie what find congruency we can always tie what find congruency we can always tie what we're bringing to the table to those we're bringing to the table to those we're bringing to the table to those things Say Hey I want to do this online

things Say Hey I want to do this online things Say Hey I want to do this online or I want to do this on social or I'd or I want to do this on social or I'd or I want to do this on social or I'd like to give this a try because it like to give this a try because it like to give this a try because it aligns with our mission we have it on aligns with our mission we have it on aligns with our mission we have it on the wall we have it in the bulletin we the wall we have it in the bulletin we the wall we have it in the bulletin we have it on the headlight of the website have it on the headlight of the website have it on the headlight of the website we believe in this seeing more people we believe in this seeing more people we believe in this seeing more people take more next steps in their Journey take more next steps in their Journey take more next steps in their Journey with Jesus and I believe that this new with Jesus and I believe that this new with Jesus and I believe that this new effort online is actually congruent with effort online is actually congruent with effort online is actually congruent with that and when we frame it that way that and when we frame it that way that and when we frame it that way interpersonally with a senior leader who interpersonally with a senior leader who interpersonally with a senior leader who may be a little bit older than us who may be a little bit older than us who may be a little bit older than us who may not speak the same um digital may not speak the same um digital may not speak the same um digital vernacular or at least um not as easy as vernacular or at least um not as easy as vernacular or at least um not as easy as someone uh like your age or mine because someone uh like your age or mine because someone uh like your age or mine because maybe they're not a digital native um maybe they're not a digital native um maybe they're not a digital native um that really helps bring everything like that really helps bring everything like that really helps bring everything like onto a Level Playing Field you're onto a Level Playing Field you're onto a Level Playing Field you're talking with the same common denominator talking with the same common denominator talking with the same common denominator at that point and I'm starting to see at that point and I'm starting to see at that point and I'm starting to see this happen for the bulk of my life for this happen for the bulk of my life for this happen for the bulk of my life for the for the duration of my leadership in the for the duration of my leadership in the for the duration of my leadership in church I have been the person speaking church I have been the person speaking church I have been the person speaking to the older leader and trying to to the older leader and trying to to the older leader and trying to translate what I'm suggesting to translate what I'm suggesting to translate what I'm suggesting to language it makes sense to them and now language it makes sense to them and now language it makes sense to them and now what I'm seeing is the generation behind what I'm seeing is the generation behind what I'm seeing is the generation behind me having to do that for me so we will me having to do that for me so we will me having to do that for me so we will get to that point if we are not already get to that point if we are not already get to that point if we are not already there well we'll we'll need younger there well we'll we'll need younger there well we'll we'll need younger leaders to explain here's why we're leaders to explain here's why we're leaders to explain here's why we're doing this one such example is the doing this one such example is the doing this one such example is the aesthetic of how photography is being aesthetic of how photography is being aesthetic of how photography is being designed so our aesthetic from the designed so our aesthetic from the designed so our aesthetic from the millennial generation was you know maybe millennial generation was you know maybe millennial generation was you know maybe we wanted things to have like a we wanted things to have like a we wanted things to have like a cinematic feel that was the word of Our cinematic feel that was the word of Our cinematic feel that was the word of Our Generation cinematic and it got so Generation cinematic and it got so Generation cinematic and it got so overdone to the point where there was overdone to the point where there was overdone to the point where there was like an anti an cinematic thing or like like an anti an cinematic thing or like like an anti an cinematic thing or like well what actually is Cinematic but that well what actually is Cinematic but that well what actually is Cinematic but that was like the pervasive word and a tool was like the pervasive word and a tool was like the pervasive word and a tool like unsplash which was unlimited stock like unsplash which was unlimited stock like unsplash which was unlimited stock photography had all their frames graded photography had all their frames graded photography had all their frames graded where it looked like movies not the

where it looked like movies not the where it looked like movies not the previous generation stock photo previous generation stock photo previous generation stock photo aesthetic which was like ey stck photo aesthetic which was like ey stck photo aesthetic which was like ey stck photo where everything was like glossy perfect where everything was like glossy perfect where everything was like glossy perfect manicured now what is genuine for the manicured now what is genuine for the manicured now what is genuine for the next generation is photos that are taken next generation is photos that are taken next generation is photos that are taken on phones with no grading whatsoever on phones with no grading whatsoever on phones with no grading whatsoever because because because what people into it from that is that what people into it from that is that what people into it from that is that this was not altered in any way this is this was not altered in any way this is this was not altered in any way this is real this was taken on a phone because I real this was taken on a phone because I real this was taken on a phone because I know what a phone's photo looks like know what a phone's photo looks like know what a phone's photo looks like which must mean this is more trustworthy which must mean this is more trustworthy which must mean this is more trustworthy this is genuine this is authentic if you this is genuine this is authentic if you this is genuine this is authentic if you want to color something to look like a want to color something to look like a want to color something to look like a movie what could be less genuine and movie what could be less genuine and movie what could be less genuine and authentic is that so this is the great authentic is that so this is the great authentic is that so this is the great Paradox and irony what is genuine to one Paradox and irony what is genuine to one Paradox and irony what is genuine to one generation is inauthentic to another and generation is inauthentic to another and generation is inauthentic to another and so the this is often conversations that so the this is often conversations that so the this is often conversations that we're having between generations with we're having between generations with we're having between generations with leadership there's this this is how leadership there's this this is how leadership there's this this is how we've always done it mentality and we B we've always done it mentality and we B we've always done it mentality and we B basically have to have these basically have to have these basically have to have these conversations to say how we've done it conversations to say how we've done it conversations to say how we've done it there doesn't apply here but if you do there doesn't apply here but if you do there doesn't apply here but if you do care about congruency let's look to the care about congruency let's look to the care about congruency let's look to the underlying Mission and there we can get underlying Mission and there we can get underlying Mission and there we can get congruency but methodological congruency congruency but methodological congruency congruency but methodological congruency here won't exist yes which leads nicely here won't exist yes which leads nicely here won't exist yes which leads nicely into strategy number two the middle into strategy number two the middle into strategy number two the middle option the middle option this is what a option the middle option this is what a option the middle option this is what a lead Pastor told me every week after lead Pastor told me every week after lead Pastor told me every week after church a person comes out to me and says church a person comes out to me and says church a person comes out to me and says Pastor I've got a great Pastor I've got a great Pastor I've got a great idea and and 99 times out of 100 that idea and and 99 times out of 100 that idea and and 99 times out of 100 that great idea is a pet project for them great idea is a pet project for them great idea is a pet project for them that they want me the leader to that they want me the leader to that they want me the leader to implement okay and the reality is that I implement okay and the reality is that I implement okay and the reality is that I do not have the time the resources or do not have the time the resources or do not have the time the resources or the motivation to get it done and so

the motivation to get it done and so the motivation to get it done and so this is a really practical way of this is a really practical way of this is a really practical way of approaching a leader where you approaching a leader where you approaching a leader where you essentially provide a framework for not essentially provide a framework for not essentially provide a framework for not just the idea but how to get it done just the idea but how to get it done just the idea but how to get it done demonstrate that you've done the leg demonstrate that you've done the leg demonstrate that you've done the leg work to implement it so you can present work to implement it so you can present work to implement it so you can present three different options and the three three different options and the three three different options and the three different options are meant to basically different options are meant to basically different options are meant to basically anchor your idea to practical steps and anchor your idea to practical steps and anchor your idea to practical steps and so this would mean budget this would so this would mean budget this would so this would mean budget this would mean time hours this would mean time mean time hours this would mean time mean time hours this would mean time line how it's actually meant to get done line how it's actually meant to get done line how it's actually meant to get done the lower the lowest option is the hey the lower the lowest option is the hey the lower the lowest option is the hey we got this done but it was done so we got this done but it was done so we got this done but it was done so poorly it wasn't really effective the poorly it wasn't really effective the poorly it wasn't really effective the highest option is in a perfect world you highest option is in a perfect world you highest option is in a perfect world you want to go all out we do this the middle want to go all out we do this the middle want to go all out we do this the middle option is meant to demonstrate how you option is meant to demonstrate how you option is meant to demonstrate how you can straddle basically the two bookend can straddle basically the two bookend can straddle basically the two bookend options where you can fulfill options where you can fulfill options where you can fulfill 80% of the effectiveness of the highest 80% of the effectiveness of the highest 80% of the effectiveness of the highest end option with like the budget end option with like the budget end option with like the budget essentially of the lowest option or just essentially of the lowest option or just essentially of the lowest option or just a little bit more yeah and what this is a little bit more yeah and what this is a little bit more yeah and what this is meant to show is one I've done the leg meant to show is one I've done the leg meant to show is one I've done the leg work on this creative idea I'm not work on this creative idea I'm not work on this creative idea I'm not asking more from you and two I asking more from you and two I asking more from you and two I acknowledge that resources are not acknowledge that resources are not acknowledge that resources are not Unlimited in this ministry and not only Unlimited in this ministry and not only Unlimited in this ministry and not only do I care about this idea but I care do I care about this idea but I care do I care about this idea but I care about it being effective while living about it being effective while living about it being effective while living within the boundaries that are a reality within the boundaries that are a reality within the boundaries that are a reality in this church what will set you apart in this church what will set you apart in this church what will set you apart in a conversation now is that you are in a conversation now is that you are in a conversation now is that you are basically fixing the problems with every basically fixing the problems with every basically fixing the problems with every conversation that a leader has on the conversation that a leader has on the conversation that a leader has on the weekend when someone says I want you to weekend when someone says I want you to weekend when someone says I want you to do this where they have no understanding do this where they have no understanding do this where they have no understanding of the real boundaries of the church and of the real boundaries of the church and of the real boundaries of the church and they also basically want to pass off the

they also basically want to pass off the they also basically want to pass off the burden of time and energy you're on burden of time and energy you're on burden of time and energy you're on you're on staff Pastor like so this is you're on staff Pastor like so this is you're on staff Pastor like so this is kind of like up to you to do if you can kind of like up to you to do if you can kind of like up to you to do if you can remove two of those things suddenly you remove two of those things suddenly you remove two of those things suddenly you are becoming a trustworthy person in the are becoming a trustworthy person in the are becoming a trustworthy person in the church you've demonstrated that you church you've demonstrated that you church you've demonstrated that you really understand what's happening and really understand what's happening and really understand what's happening and maybe most importantly to this maybe most importantly to this maybe most importantly to this conversation your idea is that much more conversation your idea is that much more conversation your idea is that much more likely to get approved you know this likely to get approved you know this likely to get approved you know this brings to mind something we talked we brings to mind something we talked we brings to mind something we talked we talked about it briefly already but talked about it briefly already but talked about it briefly already but these strategies are not about um these strategies are not about um these strategies are not about um tricking or or coercing a senior leader tricking or or coercing a senior leader tricking or or coercing a senior leader into doing something with psychological into doing something with psychological into doing something with psychological warfare or whatever um and if that's the warfare or whatever um and if that's the warfare or whatever um and if that's the energy that you're bringing to talking energy that you're bringing to talking energy that you're bringing to talking to your senior leader about anything to your senior leader about anything to your senior leader about anything maybe just like take a deep breath and maybe just like take a deep breath and maybe just like take a deep breath and go back to your prayer closet and spend go back to your prayer closet and spend go back to your prayer closet and spend a few moments there before you start a few moments there before you start a few moments there before you start asking for something but I got you using asking for something but I got you using asking for something but I got you using this methodology a few years ago here in this methodology a few years ago here in this methodology a few years ago here in the office we've got a nice espresso the office we've got a nice espresso the office we've got a nice espresso setup out there in the office we all setup out there in the office we all setup out there in the office we all kind of enjoy our coffee drinks here and kind of enjoy our coffee drinks here and kind of enjoy our coffee drinks here and we needed a new espresso grinder and uh we needed a new espresso grinder and uh we needed a new espresso grinder and uh we've talked about this middle option we've talked about this middle option we've talked about this middle option methodology on the show before and it it methodology on the show before and it it methodology on the show before and it it came to mind and I thought you know what came to mind and I thought you know what came to mind and I thought you know what uh I'm the coffee guy here and that's uh I'm the coffee guy here and that's uh I'm the coffee guy here and that's what I want to talk about is like how in what I want to talk about is like how in what I want to talk about is like how in the in the space I you're going to have the in the space I you're going to have the in the space I you're going to have to forgive this rhyme I have the grace to forgive this rhyme I have the grace to forgive this rhyme I have the grace to bring this to you so I did my to bring this to you so I did my to bring this to you so I did my research I I pulled up three grinders research I I pulled up three grinders research I I pulled up three grinders the one that I thought was most the one that I thought was most the one that I thought was most reasonable for us I positioned in the reasonable for us I positioned in the reasonable for us I positioned in the middle there was a cheaper option I told middle there was a cheaper option I told middle there was a cheaper option I told you why it would kind of not be great a you why it would kind of not be great a you why it would kind of not be great a more expensive option which I told you more expensive option which I told you more expensive option which I told you hey this would be the best grinder in hey this would be the best grinder in hey this would be the best grinder in the world I put the one that I thought the world I put the one that I thought the world I put the one that I thought we should get in the middle you said we should get in the middle you said we should get in the middle you said sure go for it and the reason I was able sure go for it and the reason I was able sure go for it and the reason I was able to bring that for you and use this to bring that for you and use this to bring that for you and use this methodology is because in this office methodology is because in this office methodology is because in this office space I I'm the coffee guy have the space I I'm the coffee guy have the space I I'm the coffee guy have the grace for that and that's something that

grace for that and that's something that grace for that and that's something that I just I I want to put into like The I just I I want to put into like The I just I I want to put into like The Ether of this conversation which is Ether of this conversation which is Ether of this conversation which is often times and this has been my often times and this has been my often times and this has been my experience in church often times and I'm experience in church often times and I'm experience in church often times and I'm a senior leader but often times that are a senior leader but often times that are a senior leader but often times that are folks that will come to me with ideas folks that will come to me with ideas folks that will come to me with ideas because for whatever reason there is because for whatever reason there is because for whatever reason there is Grace on them for that in the moment so Grace on them for that in the moment so Grace on them for that in the moment so whether it's a young woman who brings an whether it's a young woman who brings an whether it's a young woman who brings an idea about what to do in a young mom idea about what to do in a young mom idea about what to do in a young mom with what to do in the in the nursery or with what to do in the in the nursery or with what to do in the in the nursery or how to make uh a certain part of the how to make uh a certain part of the how to make uh a certain part of the church more accessible or uh um a church more accessible or uh um a church more accessible or uh um a middle-aged man who's coming with an middle-aged man who's coming with an middle-aged man who's coming with an idea about a prayer group or whatever it idea about a prayer group or whatever it idea about a prayer group or whatever it is it's like okay they're not the senior is it's like okay they're not the senior is it's like okay they're not the senior leader and and and yeah as senior leader and and and yeah as senior leader and and and yeah as senior leaders we we we kind of the burden of leaders we we we kind of the burden of leaders we we we kind of the burden of of maybe championing Vision or whatever of maybe championing Vision or whatever of maybe championing Vision or whatever but there is Grace on all sorts of but there is Grace on all sorts of but there is Grace on all sorts of different people at all sorts of different people at all sorts of different people at all sorts of different times to bring these ideas to different times to bring these ideas to different times to bring these ideas to us and so for those of us who are us and so for those of us who are us and so for those of us who are listening who feel the grace on them listening who feel the grace on them listening who feel the grace on them that like you're in your sweet spot that like you're in your sweet spot that like you're in your sweet spot right now and and these are the right now and and these are the right now and and these are the methodologies that are going to help you methodologies that are going to help you methodologies that are going to help you have those conversations uh this one in have those conversations uh this one in have those conversations uh this one in particular the middle option I mean it particular the middle option I mean it particular the middle option I mean it fooled you no it didn't fool me you no it didn't fool me I think it's now worth mentioning too if I think it's now worth mentioning too if I think it's now worth mentioning too if you're listening to this watching this you're listening to this watching this you're listening to this watching this and you're like bra you do not and you're like bra you do not and you're like bra you do not understand like my senior lead right is understand like my senior lead right is understand like my senior lead right is actually just actually just actually just toxic that may be true yeah and there toxic that may be true yeah and there toxic that may be true yeah and there are certain leaders irrespective of your are certain leaders irrespective of your are certain leaders irrespective of your approach and the let's say just

approach and the let's say just approach and the let's say just ethicalness that you bring to your ethicalness that you bring to your ethicalness that you bring to your efforts that they may just not be enough efforts that they may just not be enough efforts that they may just not be enough I always try to keep a mind of I always try to keep a mind of I always try to keep a mind of possibility possibility possibility about my approaches I have only really about my approaches I have only really about my approaches I have only really ever been the leader of an or except for ever been the leader of an or except for ever been the leader of an or except for the years that I was in Bible College the years that I was in Bible College the years that I was in Bible College serving in church and then of course serving in church and then of course serving in church and then of course like the previous 20 years when I was a like the previous 20 years when I was a like the previous 20 years when I was a minor um volunteering in church but I minor um volunteering in church but I minor um volunteering in church but I have had some people that have worked have had some people that have worked have had some people that have worked below me that there were moments where I below me that there were moments where I below me that there were moments where I was like there's just no future here and was like there's just no future here and was like there's just no future here and then I have seen dramatic change and so then I have seen dramatic change and so then I have seen dramatic change and so I think sometimes it is just about I think sometimes it is just about I think sometimes it is just about finding the right approach and then you finding the right approach and then you finding the right approach and then you just keep the door open a crack just just keep the door open a crack just just keep the door open a crack just like don't slam the door shut like it like don't slam the door shut like it like don't slam the door shut like it might be 99% shut just leave it open a might be 99% shut just leave it open a might be 99% shut just leave it open a crack and then maybe one of these things crack and then maybe one of these things crack and then maybe one of these things gets your proverbial foot in the door gets your proverbial foot in the door gets your proverbial foot in the door yes and now it's open like 5% and then yes and now it's open like 5% and then yes and now it's open like 5% and then you just keep building on it and you just keep building on it and you just keep building on it and building on it and you become the building on it and you become the building on it and you become the trusted Source because that Grace it trusted Source because that Grace it trusted Source because that Grace it isn't just something that's always like isn't just something that's always like isn't just something that's always like God God just like puts upon you and says God God just like puts upon you and says God God just like puts upon you and says now you have this Grace it's often now you have this Grace it's often now you have this Grace it's often something that is earned because Grace something that is earned because Grace something that is earned because Grace essentially a synonym for it would be essentially a synonym for it would be essentially a synonym for it would be trust you have earned trust in this trust you have earned trust in this trust you have earned trust in this conversation trust enough for what you conversation trust enough for what you conversation trust enough for what you say for me to go for forward with what say for me to go for forward with what say for me to go for forward with what what is trust trust is earned and so yes what is trust trust is earned and so yes what is trust trust is earned and so yes Grace can come through I guess and I Grace can come through I guess and I Grace can come through I guess and I believe this just like a mantle that God believe this just like a mantle that God believe this just like a mantle that God puts upon you it is also something that puts upon you it is also something that puts upon you it is also something that must be stewarded and by extension can must be stewarded and by extension can must be stewarded and by extension can be earned through hard work and be earned through hard work and be earned through hard work and understanding and being aligned with the understanding and being aligned with the understanding and being aligned with the mission of the church yeah and you never mission of the church yeah and you never mission of the church yeah and you never really know what which one of these kind

really know what which one of these kind really know what which one of these kind of ideas or Frameworks is going to of ideas or Frameworks is going to of ideas or Frameworks is going to resonate um on a personal level with resonate um on a personal level with resonate um on a personal level with your senior leader maybe they're kind of your senior leader maybe they're kind of your senior leader maybe they're kind of allergic to the middle option for allergic to the middle option for allergic to the middle option for whatever reason uh but maybe another one whatever reason uh but maybe another one whatever reason uh but maybe another one uh is more effective uh is more effective uh is more effective uh how about this one the historical uh how about this one the historical uh how about this one the historical analogy yeah and that's actually why we analogy yeah and that's actually why we analogy yeah and that's actually why we wanted to go through five because we wanted to go through five because we wanted to go through five because we used to really only talk about the used to really only talk about the used to really only talk about the middle option as like hey I've Prov that middle option as like hey I've Prov that middle option as like hey I've Prov that this is the right way and we got some this is the right way and we got some this is the right way and we got some feedback from like you know what it feedback from like you know what it feedback from like you know what it didn't work exactly how works a lot of didn't work exactly how works a lot of didn't work exactly how works a lot of time but then some leaders they're just time but then some leaders they're just time but then some leaders they're just they saw it coming this time well they they saw it coming this time well they they saw it coming this time well they had heard my podcast before they're like had heard my podcast before they're like had heard my podcast before they're like I see what you're doing we've we have I see what you're doing we've we have I see what you're doing we've we have since never bought another coffee since never bought another coffee since never bought another coffee machine it's true not only do I suggest machine it's true not only do I suggest machine it's true not only do I suggest the lower option I find a discounted the lower option I find a discounted the lower option I find a discounted version of version of version of that uh so the historical analogy is that uh so the historical analogy is that uh so the historical analogy is basically language translation okay this basically language translation okay this basically language translation okay this is Google Translate for Generations so is Google Translate for Generations so is Google Translate for Generations so was having a conversation with one of was having a conversation with one of was having a conversation with one of these churches and they were like our these churches and they were like our these churches and they were like our pastor wants to like exhaust every pastor wants to like exhaust every pastor wants to like exhaust every single event in the announcements single event in the announcements single event in the announcements portion of service and there's little portion of service and there's little portion of service and there's little desire to make the announcements fun to desire to make the announcements fun to desire to make the announcements fun to listen to It's like if we get through listen to It's like if we get through listen to It's like if we get through every single event and we get through every single event and we get through every single event and we get through every single detail we know we've done every single detail we know we've done every single detail we know we've done our part right and I can get into our part right and I can get into our part right and I can get into perhaps with the senior leader like why perhaps with the senior leader like why perhaps with the senior leader like why that's not the most effective approach that's not the most effective approach that's not the most effective approach and perhaps that is going to convince and perhaps that is going to convince and perhaps that is going to convince them but my sense was in this specific them but my sense was in this specific them but my sense was in this specific situation the better approach would situation the better approach would situation the better approach would simply be to Anchor our motivation for simply be to Anchor our motivation for simply be to Anchor our motivation for announcements to a communication medium announcements to a communication medium announcements to a communication medium that would be familiar to them so what that would be familiar to them so what that would be familiar to them so what we discussed was how in network TV it

we discussed was how in network TV it we discussed was how in network TV it has been proven and understood over has been proven and understood over has been proven and understood over decades and hundreds of millions of decades and hundreds of millions of decades and hundreds of millions of dollars of research that with in a 30 dollars of research that with in a 30 dollars of research that with in a 30 minute time slot you can basically max minute time slot you can basically max minute time slot you can basically max out 7 Minutes of commercials before out 7 Minutes of commercials before out 7 Minutes of commercials before people will just turn the channel and people will just turn the channel and people will just turn the channel and abandon the program you get past those abandon the program you get past those abandon the program you get past those seven minutes and people are just like seven minutes and people are just like seven minutes and people are just like this is too much commercials and not this is too much commercials and not this is too much commercials and not enough substance I don't want to watch enough substance I don't want to watch enough substance I don't want to watch this this this anymore and the idea there is that not anymore and the idea there is that not anymore and the idea there is that not only can you not just promote only can you not just promote only can you not just promote indefinitely but you actually have to do indefinitely but you actually have to do indefinitely but you actually have to do less promotion than substance overall less promotion than substance overall less promotion than substance overall and this is why we talk about the church and this is why we talk about the church and this is why we talk about the church announcement formula which is one story announcement formula which is one story announcement formula which is one story plus one next step where the actual plus one next step where the actual plus one next step where the actual announcement is maybe announcement is maybe announcement is maybe 95% plus just telling a story and by 95% plus just telling a story and by 95% plus just telling a story and by story it could be a 60-second anecdote story it could be a 60-second anecdote story it could be a 60-second anecdote with a one sentence add-on at the end with a one sentence add-on at the end with a one sentence add-on at the end and by the way go to our website for and by the way go to our website for and by the way go to our website for more information on what's happening more information on what's happening more information on what's happening there that is the analogous example to there that is the analogous example to there that is the analogous example to what a commercial within television what a commercial within television what a commercial within television would be and then we could get even a would be and then we could get even a would be and then we could get even a little bit deeper okay what's one of the little bit deeper okay what's one of the little bit deeper okay what's one of the most popular types of commercials a most popular types of commercials a most popular types of commercials a movie trailer here's an upcoming and if movie trailer here's an upcoming and if movie trailer here's an upcoming and if you're listening you're like wow wow I you're listening you're like wow wow I you're listening you're like wow wow I kind of forgot about yeah it's a little kind of forgot about yeah it's a little kind of forgot about yeah it's a little bit of a blast from the past you would bit of a blast from the past you would bit of a blast from the past you would see movies advertised within commercials see movies advertised within commercials see movies advertised within commercials and what would these movie trailers do and what would these movie trailers do and what would these movie trailers do they would be 95% inspiring you to see they would be 95% inspiring you to see they would be 95% inspiring you to see the movie and then at the Final End it'd the movie and then at the Final End it'd the movie and then at the Final End it'd be like coming soon or if it was an be like coming soon or if it was an be like coming soon or if it was an advertisement from a specific theater advertisement from a specific theater advertisement from a specific theater like oh F show times at amc.com or like oh F show times at amc.com or like oh F show times at amc.com or whatever it would be or just the date of whatever it would be or just the date of whatever it would be or just the date of when it was coming they trust you to

when it was coming they trust you to when it was coming they trust you to track down the information they need to track down the information they need to track down the information they need to inspire you if all they said was this is inspire you if all they said was this is inspire you if all they said was this is when the showtimes are for this movie when the showtimes are for this movie when the showtimes are for this movie and then they just went through all the and then they just went through all the and then they just went through all the different show times for 30 seconds that different show times for 30 seconds that different show times for 30 seconds that would not be effective and at the end of would not be effective and at the end of would not be effective and at the end of the day it's not our job to just share the day it's not our job to just share the day it's not our job to just share information it's our job to get people information it's our job to get people information it's our job to get people to respond to information the mission is to respond to information the mission is to respond to information the mission is to see next steps the mission is not to to see next steps the mission is not to to see next steps the mission is not to just say hey we communicated everything just say hey we communicated everything just say hey we communicated everything that's on them to respond no eventually that's on them to respond no eventually that's on them to respond no eventually you have to look in the mirror and say you have to look in the mirror and say you have to look in the mirror and say these are the numbers doesn't matter these are the numbers doesn't matter these are the numbers doesn't matter what we say people don't seem to respond what we say people don't seem to respond what we say people don't seem to respond and what I emphasize to this church and and what I emphasize to this church and and what I emphasize to this church and what I think is worth emphasizing to what I think is worth emphasizing to what I think is worth emphasizing to everyone listening is that we are everyone listening is that we are everyone listening is that we are talking about some of the most difficult talking about some of the most difficult talking about some of the most difficult things in the world of communication to things in the world of communication to things in the world of communication to do if you think about commercials think do if you think about commercials think do if you think about commercials think about what has happened in at least about what has happened in at least about what has happened in at least States side commercials every single States side commercials every single States side commercials every single commercial has a celebrity endorsement commercial has a celebrity endorsement commercial has a celebrity endorsement now we don't really have that in Canada now we don't really have that in Canada now we don't really have that in Canada and much of the rest of the world most and much of the rest of the world most and much of the rest of the world most of our celebrities you know are pseudo of our celebrities you know are pseudo of our celebrities you know are pseudo Americans first of all they leave here Americans first of all they leave here Americans first of all they leave here as soon as they can first of all like it as soon as they can first of all like it as soon as they can first of all like it doesn't you know you're watching doesn't you know you're watching doesn't you know you're watching something oh it's William Shatner again something oh it's William Shatner again something oh it's William Shatner again like advertising something why because like advertising something why because like advertising something why because it was discovered that one of the best it was discovered that one of the best it was discovered that one of the best ways at least in that culture to just ways at least in that culture to just ways at least in that culture to just instantly Garner attention was just have instantly Garner attention was just have instantly Garner attention was just have a famous person basically take something a famous person basically take something a famous person basically take something that's familiar to them as the entry that's familiar to them as the entry that's familiar to them as the entry point to then promote the thing and it point to then promote the thing and it point to then promote the thing and it was understood that without a celebrity was understood that without a celebrity was understood that without a celebrity endorsement you would have a much more endorsement you would have a much more endorsement you would have a much more difficult time of getting people to difficult time of getting people to difficult time of getting people to respond to the commercial so that same respond to the commercial so that same respond to the commercial so that same approach needs to be taken in church

approach needs to be taken in church approach needs to be taken in church like we can't look at ourselves like we can't look at ourselves like we can't look at ourselves internally and just say you know what internally and just say you know what internally and just say you know what we're different right we do not have to we're different right we do not have to we're different right we do not have to obey by the rules like no that's like a obey by the rules like no that's like a obey by the rules like no that's like a level of arrogance or at least ignorance level of arrogance or at least ignorance level of arrogance or at least ignorance that we have to be aware of and I I have that we have to be aware of and I I have that we have to be aware of and I I have found that sometimes talking for 30 found that sometimes talking for 30 found that sometimes talking for 30 seconds about a historical analogy can seconds about a historical analogy can seconds about a historical analogy can get the Eureka moment that I maybe get the Eureka moment that I maybe get the Eureka moment that I maybe otherwise used to spend like hours otherwise used to spend like hours otherwise used to spend like hours trying to get to with like data and like trying to get to with like data and like trying to get to with like data and like Frameworks yeah I mean it just helps you Frameworks yeah I mean it just helps you Frameworks yeah I mean it just helps you zoom out for a second right and get get zoom out for a second right and get get zoom out for a second right and get get out of your own like little vacuum your out of your own like little vacuum your out of your own like little vacuum your little Silo of of what you're doing little Silo of of what you're doing little Silo of of what you're doing which is very important work but just which is very important work but just which is very important work but just kind of just just back up a little bit kind of just just back up a little bit kind of just just back up a little bit and and regain some frame of reference and and regain some frame of reference and and regain some frame of reference and anchor what you're trying to do in and anchor what you're trying to do in and anchor what you're trying to do in in basically precedence from other in basically precedence from other in basically precedence from other Industries or other areas right like the Industries or other areas right like the Industries or other areas right like the the commercial example is the perfect the commercial example is the perfect the commercial example is the perfect one it's like okay we are all familiar one it's like okay we are all familiar one it's like okay we are all familiar with with how how ads run on television with with how how ads run on television with with how how ads run on television how we've experienced them and so if how we've experienced them and so if how we've experienced them and so if that's a framework that is is employed that's a framework that is is employed that's a framework that is is employed by some of the biggest advertisers in by some of the biggest advertisers in by some of the biggest advertisers in the world and and has been for so long the world and and has been for so long the world and and has been for so long well that that gives me the the well that that gives me the the well that that gives me the the information I need to maybe reevaluate information I need to maybe reevaluate information I need to maybe reevaluate how we for for lack of better term like how we for for lack of better term like how we for for lack of better term like advertise in our church um so it's it advertise in our church um so it's it advertise in our church um so it's it serves just that that very simple task serves just that that very simple task serves just that that very simple task of just zooming out a little bit to give of just zooming out a little bit to give of just zooming out a little bit to give you a little bit more perspective uh to you a little bit more perspective uh to you a little bit more perspective uh to help you make decisions um this next one help you make decisions um this next one help you make decisions um this next one you've got noted as your last resort so you've got noted as your last resort so you've got noted as your last resort so you've gone through the first three you've gone through the first three you've gone through the first three nothing's nothing's resonating with your nothing's nothing's resonating with your nothing's nothing's resonating with your senior leadership what about this one senior leadership what about this one senior leadership what about this one the church across the street example the church across the street example the church across the street example yeah this is like almost guaranteed to yeah this is like almost guaranteed to yeah this is like almost guaranteed to work it like works every single time but work it like works every single time but work it like works every single time but I don't really like to use it unless I

I don't really like to use it unless I I don't really like to use it unless I actually have to but we talked about actually have to but we talked about actually have to but we talked about trust between two parties right and trust between two parties right and trust between two parties right and sometimes you approach your senior sometimes you approach your senior sometimes you approach your senior leader and it really comes down to how leader and it really comes down to how leader and it really comes down to how much trust they have in your perspective much trust they have in your perspective much trust they have in your perspective yeah and the history that you've built yeah and the history that you've built yeah and the history that you've built to determine if what you are suggesting to determine if what you are suggesting to determine if what you are suggesting is going to hold any weight with is going to hold any weight with is going to hold any weight with them as someone that has created content them as someone that has created content them as someone that has created content for churches for 15 years I have seen for churches for 15 years I have seen for churches for 15 years I have seen one universal truth in the content that one universal truth in the content that one universal truth in the content that we have made are there others perhaps we have made are there others perhaps we have made are there others perhaps but this is one that I know exists for but this is one that I know exists for but this is one that I know exists for sure if we say big church did this it sure if we say big church did this it sure if we say big church did this it gets just guaranteed 3x boost on views gets just guaranteed 3x boost on views gets just guaranteed 3x boost on views and attention and engagement and the and attention and engagement and the and attention and engagement and the reason is every single day people like reason is every single day people like reason is every single day people like me send out emails to churches being me send out emails to churches being me send out emails to churches being like these are the these are the tips like these are the these are the tips like these are the these are the tips for this thing that you have struggling for this thing that you have struggling for this thing that you have struggling that you're struggling with follow these that you're struggling with follow these that you're struggling with follow these steps and what happens over time is that steps and what happens over time is that steps and what happens over time is that you eventually realize oh that's their you eventually realize oh that's their you eventually realize oh that's their perspective it's probably not going to perspective it's probably not going to perspective it's probably not going to work for me maybe I'll just tune it out work for me maybe I'll just tune it out work for me maybe I'll just tune it out if I then say if I then say if I then say instead my church did this and it worked instead my church did this and it worked instead my church did this and it worked or Elevation Church did this and it or Elevation Church did this and it or Elevation Church did this and it worked suddenly people are like oh worked suddenly people are like oh worked suddenly people are like oh you're not just claiming this works you you're not just claiming this works you you're not just claiming this works you have evidence that it works in another have evidence that it works in another have evidence that it works in another church MH and I don't know it kind of church MH and I don't know it kind of church MH and I don't know it kind of feels maybe I'm just wishful thinking feels maybe I'm just wishful thinking feels maybe I'm just wishful thinking here and I would want a senior leader to here and I would want a senior leader to here and I would want a senior leader to respond to maybe the previous examp like respond to maybe the previous examp like respond to maybe the previous examp like oh right look this is this will fulfill oh right look this is this will fulfill oh right look this is this will fulfill the mission of our church missional the mission of our church missional the mission of our church missional values yes I'm willing to put in the leg values yes I'm willing to put in the leg values yes I'm willing to put in the leg work myself like yes let's talk about work myself like yes let's talk about work myself like yes let's talk about like historical analogies like well like historical analogies like well like historical analogies like well actually the church down the street did actually the church down the street did actually the church down the street did it and they're bigger and you want to be

it and they're bigger and you want to be it and they're bigger and you want to be like them so like them so like them so and this is how we see certain and this is how we see certain and this is how we see certain Trends perpetuate that are like even Trends perpetuate that are like even Trends perpetuate that are like even negative trends like we've spoken very negative trends like we've spoken very negative trends like we've spoken very openly about how we just don't believe openly about how we just don't believe openly about how we just don't believe that church apps for 99% of churches that church apps for 99% of churches that church apps for 99% of churches make any sense maybe one day an app will make any sense maybe one day an app will make any sense maybe one day an app will come out that perfectly works with your come out that perfectly works with your come out that perfectly works with your website and it's basically an extension website and it's basically an extension website and it's basically an extension of your website but we still don't of your website but we still don't of your website but we still don't really have that we have apps that are really have that we have apps that are really have that we have apps that are their own thing websites their own thing their own thing websites their own thing their own thing websites their own thing everything siloed to use a word that I everything siloed to use a word that I everything siloed to use a word that I love that you just used recently and love that you just used recently and love that you just used recently and when nothing works together were're like when nothing works together were're like when nothing works together were're like this is the silver bullet and and and this is the silver bullet and and and this is the silver bullet and and and what happened churches were like that what happened churches were like that what happened churches were like that church has an app we should have an app church has an app we should have an app church has an app we should have an app and now like you know every other Church and now like you know every other Church and now like you know every other Church it seems has an app are they effective I it seems has an app are they effective I it seems has an app are they effective I would say no are they expensive yes and would say no are they expensive yes and would say no are they expensive yes and yet that didn't matter it wasn't yet that didn't matter it wasn't yet that didn't matter it wasn't effective they were expensive and effective they were expensive and effective they were expensive and everyone got them because the church everyone got them because the church everyone got them because the church down the street did this happened with down the street did this happened with down the street did this happened with live streaming before Co people had no live streaming before Co people had no live streaming before Co people had no strategy behind live streaming it was strategy behind live streaming it was strategy behind live streaming it was actually working against so much of what actually working against so much of what actually working against so much of what they were trying to do in person we were they were trying to do in person we were they were trying to do in person we were vocal about that for many years as well vocal about that for many years as well vocal about that for many years as well and people just live streamed and they and people just live streamed and they and people just live streamed and they would spend insane amounts on live would spend insane amounts on live would spend insane amounts on live stream because the church down the stream because the church down the stream because the church down the street did and so I don't maybe like to street did and so I don't maybe like to street did and so I don't maybe like to like rely on this as a tactic for like rely on this as a tactic for like rely on this as a tactic for convincing a pastor because like maybe I convincing a pastor because like maybe I convincing a pastor because like maybe I just just just again have an again have an again have an idealistic perspective on how I would idealistic perspective on how I would idealistic perspective on how I would like to communicate nonetheless it is like to communicate nonetheless it is like to communicate nonetheless it is not manipulative and it is certainly not manipulative and it is certainly not manipulative and it is certainly effective I mean we we actually this

effective I mean we we actually this effective I mean we we actually this tactic uh a few weeks ago um this is tactic uh a few weeks ago um this is tactic uh a few weeks ago um this is kind of this is a more Northern thing to kind of this is a more Northern thing to kind of this is a more Northern thing to say but we had a winter storm a few say but we had a winter storm a few say but we had a winter storm a few weeks ago that was coming in on Saturday weeks ago that was coming in on Saturday weeks ago that was coming in on Saturday and was predicted to get really ugly and was predicted to get really ugly and was predicted to get really ugly like over Saturday night so for a church like over Saturday night so for a church like over Saturday night so for a church like ours that doesn't have like an like ours that doesn't have like an like ours that doesn't have like an online church thing it's the the stakes online church thing it's the the stakes online church thing it's the the stakes for cancelling inperson service are a for cancelling inperson service are a for cancelling inperson service are a little bit higher because we can't just little bit higher because we can't just little bit higher because we can't just say oh church is online it's like well say oh church is online it's like well say oh church is online it's like well no if church is closed church is closed no if church is closed church is closed no if church is closed church is closed and so my dad and I both woke up early and so my dad and I both woke up early and so my dad and I both woke up early Sunday morning and the weather was like Sunday morning and the weather was like Sunday morning and the weather was like I love driving in the snow so I'm like I love driving in the snow so I'm like I love driving in the snow so I'm like yeah I'll I'll get out there but um you yeah I'll I'll get out there but um you yeah I'll I'll get out there but um you know we're just trying to make the right know we're just trying to make the right know we're just trying to make the right decision and invariably like the decision and invariably like the decision and invariably like the question comes up like oh is Central question comes up like oh is Central question comes up like oh is Central closed is Mountain Park closed is closed closed is Mountain Park closed is closed closed is Mountain Park closed is closed the two churches that are just around the two churches that are just around the two churches that are just around the corner so like you just get on the corner so like you just get on the corner so like you just get on Instagram you see what the other Instagram you see what the other Instagram you see what the other churches are doing and and like it it churches are doing and and like it it churches are doing and and like it it wasn't like wasn't like oh they did it wasn't like wasn't like oh they did it wasn't like wasn't like oh they did it so we have to do it but it's just like so we have to do it but it's just like so we have to do it but it's just like Gathering more information about other Gathering more information about other Gathering more information about other Christian communities locally and saying Christian communities locally and saying Christian communities locally and saying like Okay what decisions are they making like Okay what decisions are they making like Okay what decisions are they making so there is like you know there are ways so there is like you know there are ways so there is like you know there are ways that that this this kind of comes up that that this this kind of comes up that that this this kind of comes up that that are less like kind of trump that that are less like kind of trump that that are less like kind of trump Cardy um but certainly I guess if you Cardy um but certainly I guess if you Cardy um but certainly I guess if you need a trump card you can use it no need a trump card you can use it no need a trump card you can use it no that's actually really interesting and that's actually really interesting and that's actually really interesting and it shows maybe an incomplete perspective it shows maybe an incomplete perspective it shows maybe an incomplete perspective I had on this despite it being the I had on this despite it being the I had on this despite it being the bullet point that I put into the bullet point that I put into the bullet point that I put into the episode senior leaders have so many episode senior leaders have so many episode senior leaders have so many decisions to make every single day every decisions to make every single day every decisions to make every single day every single week leaders of all types have single week leaders of all types have single week leaders of all types have unlimited decisions and eventually your unlimited decisions and eventually your unlimited decisions and eventually your job is basically just making decisions job is basically just making decisions job is basically just making decisions in certain Arenas like you're not even in certain Arenas like you're not even in certain Arenas like you're not even involved in the execution you're just involved in the execution you're just involved in the execution you're just involved in like the stamp of approval involved in like the stamp of approval involved in like the stamp of approval the ultimate signature um on the bottom the ultimate signature um on the bottom the ultimate signature um on the bottom line

line line and what does a church doing something and what does a church doing something and what does a church doing something that is proven successful do it takes that is proven successful do it takes that is proven successful do it takes the decision- making out of your hands the decision- making out of your hands the decision- making out of your hands and it puts it in their hands and you and it puts it in their hands and you and it puts it in their hands and you basically get to rely on another senior basically get to rely on another senior basically get to rely on another senior leader who's in the same camp as you leader who's in the same camp as you leader who's in the same camp as you their decision- making presumably their decision- making presumably their decision- making presumably they've done the leg work they've done they've done the leg work they've done they've done the leg work they've done the research they've weighed the pros the research they've weighed the pros the research they've weighed the pros and cons and they went forward with it and cons and they went forward with it and cons and they went forward with it and so I'm going to actually just lean and so I'm going to actually just lean and so I'm going to actually just lean on that totally and allow that to be my on that totally and allow that to be my on that totally and allow that to be my decision maker yeah you know a lot of decision maker yeah you know a lot of decision maker yeah you know a lot of our churches made decisions that way in our churches made decisions that way in our churches made decisions that way in Co like you mentioned Co we We Didn't Co like you mentioned Co we We Didn't Co like you mentioned Co we We Didn't Start we didn't do live streaming in the Start we didn't do live streaming in the Start we didn't do live streaming in the way that other churches did but it was way that other churches did but it was way that other churches did but it was like in our up here in Canada that the like in our up here in Canada that the like in our up here in Canada that the restrictions on inperson Services were a restrictions on inperson Services were a restrictions on inperson Services were a little bit more strict than they were in little bit more strict than they were in little bit more strict than they were in other places so some of our inperson other places so some of our inperson other places so some of our inperson services were delayed for a lot longer services were delayed for a lot longer services were delayed for a lot longer than other places and we're making the than other places and we're making the than other places and we're making the same decisions looking around at other same decisions looking around at other same decisions looking around at other churches locally like what kind of churches locally like what kind of churches locally like what kind of choices are they making why how are they choices are they making why how are they choices are they making why how are they serving communion this that and the serving communion this that and the serving communion this that and the other and so it really this is why we other and so it really this is why we other and so it really this is why we talk about in the the opening line to talk about in the the opening line to talk about in the the opening line to the show every week we're helping the show every week we're helping the show every week we're helping churches navigate the biggest churches navigate the biggest churches navigate the biggest communication shift in the last five 500 communication shift in the last five 500 communication shift in the last five 500 years because what the internet has done years because what the internet has done years because what the internet has done has afforded us our this opportunity to has afforded us our this opportunity to has afforded us our this opportunity to hop on Instagram and see what are these hop on Instagram and see what are these hop on Instagram and see what are these churches in Niagara doing whereas 20 churches in Niagara doing whereas 20 churches in Niagara doing whereas 20 years ago certainly 30 years ago you years ago certainly 30 years ago you years ago certainly 30 years ago you really had no idea what the church down really had no idea what the church down really had no idea what the church down the street was doing unless you picked the street was doing unless you picked the street was doing unless you picked with the phone to find out and so we do with the phone to find out and so we do with the phone to find out and so we do live in this digital age we do have this live in this digital age we do have this live in this digital age we do have this information and so there are ways to use information and so there are ways to use information and so there are ways to use it and leverage it in there are holy it and leverage it in there are holy it and leverage it in there are holy ways to use and leverage it I guess I ways to use and leverage it I guess I ways to use and leverage it I guess I could say it this way you know it's could say it this way you know it's could say it this way you know it's funny it's erotic as I say this every funny it's erotic as I say this every funny it's erotic as I say this every single church we visit I feel like single church we visit I feel like single church we visit I feel like and I I say this with um it it's very

and I I say this with um it it's very and I I say this with um it it's very strange to hear we'll say oh man like strange to hear we'll say oh man like strange to hear we'll say oh man like everything you publish we just send to everything you publish we just send to everything you publish we just send to our pastor or like we just send our pastor or like we just send our pastor or like we just send internally oh Brady said it do it and internally oh Brady said it do it and internally oh Brady said it do it and basically what they've put trust in is basically what they've put trust in is basically what they've put trust in is that I've done the research and I've that I've done the research and I've that I've done the research and I've done the evaluation and my history in done the evaluation and my history in done the evaluation and my history in this space and working with this many this space and working with this many this space and working with this many churches I've come to this conclusion churches I've come to this conclusion churches I've come to this conclusion and that conclusion can be trusted and and that conclusion can be trusted and and that conclusion can be trusted and so then they can move forward with that so then they can move forward with that so then they can move forward with that you got to you're going to have to you got to you're going to have to you got to you're going to have to meditate on that a little bit well and meditate on that a little bit well and meditate on that a little bit well and and this I had another conversation we and this I had another conversation we and this I had another conversation we we we had lunch with a church and then we we had lunch with a church and then we we had lunch with a church and then one of the pastors that we were having one of the pastors that we were having one of the pastors that we were having lunch with like hey let's like go meet lunch with like hey let's like go meet lunch with like hey let's like go meet some other people we meet these other some other people we meet these other some other people we meet these other people and the guy goes oh by the way I people and the guy goes oh by the way I people and the guy goes oh by the way I I know who you are and I was like man I I know who you are and I was like man I I know who you are and I was like man I would feel compelled to say the same would feel compelled to say the same would feel compelled to say the same thing but like I I bet he I was just thing but like I I bet he I was just thing but like I I bet he I was just thinking afterwards I was like how if if thinking afterwards I was like how if if thinking afterwards I was like how if if we were in like the opposite rules be we were in like the opposite rules be we were in like the opposite rules be like how do I let this person know that like how do I let this person know that like how do I let this person know that like I know who they are without it like I know who they are without it like I know who they are without it sounding like by by the way I follow you sounding like by by the way I follow you sounding like by by the way I follow you just like two guys talking so I was like just like two guys talking so I was like just like two guys talking so I was like that's very kind of you to say and he that's very kind of you to say and he that's very kind of you to say and he said to me he's like yeah like I said to me he's like yeah like I said to me he's like yeah like I remember like you came across my feet remember like you came across my feet remember like you came across my feet and I said oh Matt Chandler follows this and I said oh Matt Chandler follows this and I said oh Matt Chandler follows this guy and Levi lusco follows this guy he guy and Levi lusco follows this guy he guy and Levi lusco follows this guy he must know what he's saying there you go must know what he's saying there you go must know what he's saying there you go there's the more social proof there there's the more social proof there there's the more social proof there right exactly which gets us into the right exactly which gets us into the right exactly which gets us into the fifth and final this one's called the fifth and final this one's called the fifth and final this one's called the testimony yeah so this is like evidence testimony yeah so this is like evidence testimony yeah so this is like evidence that you were right after the fact right that you were right after the fact right that you were right after the fact right we talked about Grace already in this we talked about Grace already in this we talked about Grace already in this episode right you got to do this in a episode right you got to do this in a episode right you got to do this in a gracious way gracious way gracious way just like see I told you so no no the

just like see I told you so no no the just like see I told you so no no the Bible says we will overcome by the word Bible says we will overcome by the word Bible says we will overcome by the word of Our Testimony you you don't right I of Our Testimony you you don't right I of Our Testimony you you don't right I got to brush up on the scriptures so I got to brush up on the scriptures so I got to brush up on the scriptures so I think what happens is sometimes you get think what happens is sometimes you get think what happens is sometimes you get your idea approved and you might not your idea approved and you might not your idea approved and you might not even have full Confidence from your even have full Confidence from your even have full Confidence from your senior leader and so what I always like senior leader and so what I always like senior leader and so what I always like to do is basically log any and to do is basically log any and to do is basically log any and everything from the digital world that everything from the digital world that everything from the digital world that puts a stamp on like hey our efforts are puts a stamp on like hey our efforts are puts a stamp on like hey our efforts are making a difference and impacting life making a difference and impacting life making a difference and impacting life change one of the reasons for this that change one of the reasons for this that change one of the reasons for this that I do this in the digital space just I I do this in the digital space just I I do this in the digital space just I think it's more necessary is because it think it's more necessary is because it think it's more necessary is because it is really hard to track here's what we is really hard to track here's what we is really hard to track here's what we did online or digitally and here's how did online or digitally and here's how did online or digitally and here's how it translated to in person so anytime I it translated to in person so anytime I it translated to in person so anytime I get feedback from someone anytime I have get feedback from someone anytime I have get feedback from someone anytime I have a conversation with someone anytime it's a conversation with someone anytime it's a conversation with someone anytime it's like I want to document this and then like I want to document this and then like I want to document this and then I'm just going to like bring it up oh I'm just going to like bring it up oh I'm just going to like bring it up oh yeah so what you know next staff meeting yeah so what you know next staff meeting yeah so what you know next staff meeting what were you working on oh yeah yeah so what were you working on oh yeah yeah so what were you working on oh yeah yeah so like uh you know it was the big project like uh you know it was the big project like uh you know it was the big project we pushed it Forward by the way had some we pushed it Forward by the way had some we pushed it Forward by the way had some great feedback from it and I'm just like great feedback from it and I'm just like great feedback from it and I'm just like going to like lay it all out to going to like lay it all out to going to like lay it all out to basically just demonstrate that hey we basically just demonstrate that hey we basically just demonstrate that hey we made a difference with this not to prove made a difference with this not to prove made a difference with this not to prove that I was that I was that I was right for the most right for the most right for the most part but to say hey I know you trusted part but to say hey I know you trusted part but to say hey I know you trusted me with this yes I know this was a risk me with this yes I know this was a risk me with this yes I know this was a risk for you Pastor I know you weren't fully for you Pastor I know you weren't fully for you Pastor I know you weren't fully convinced of this I know you have to convinced of this I know you have to convinced of this I know you have to make decisions every single day and make decisions every single day and make decisions every single day and sometimes you look back in hindsight and sometimes you look back in hindsight and sometimes you look back in hindsight and go oh that was a wrong decision I wish I go oh that was a wrong decision I wish I go oh that was a wrong decision I wish I could have known that at the time this could have known that at the time this could have known that at the time this was not a wrong decision it was a right was not a wrong decision it was a right was not a wrong decision it was a right decision and look at the fruit that came decision and look at the fruit that came decision and look at the fruit that came from it yeah I mean you mentioned trust from it yeah I mean you mentioned trust from it yeah I mean you mentioned trust earlier when we were talking about Grace earlier when we were talking about Grace earlier when we were talking about Grace and that's it right they they the senior and that's it right they they the senior and that's it right they they the senior leader goes out on a limb um likely to

leader goes out on a limb um likely to leader goes out on a limb um likely to say yes to one of these things you bring say yes to one of these things you bring say yes to one of these things you bring to them and and they've put a little bit to them and and they've put a little bit to them and and they've put a little bit of Faith In You by by showing them the of Faith In You by by showing them the of Faith In You by by showing them the feedback loop at the end and saying hey feedback loop at the end and saying hey feedback loop at the end and saying hey this thank you this actually worked that this thank you this actually worked that this thank you this actually worked that helps like solidify and establish the helps like solidify and establish the helps like solidify and establish the trust that that the faith the Hope was trust that that the faith the Hope was trust that that the faith the Hope was not disappointed in you and now there's not disappointed in you and now there's not disappointed in you and now there's trust there which helps both of you trust there which helps both of you trust there which helps both of you going forward right and it's not just going forward right and it's not just going forward right and it's not just it's actually not about either of you it's actually not about either of you it's actually not about either of you it's about the mission and the vision of it's about the mission and the vision of it's about the mission and the vision of the church and so the next time that the church and so the next time that the church and so the next time that you've got an idea the next time that you've got an idea the next time that you've got an idea the next time that you you you have to navigate these you you you have to navigate these you you you have to navigate these interpersonal Waters with senior interpersonal Waters with senior interpersonal Waters with senior leadership you are starting a leg up leadership you are starting a leg up leadership you are starting a leg up because of the trust that you've kind of because of the trust that you've kind of because of the trust that you've kind of fortified there and the church Community fortified there and the church Community fortified there and the church Community is going to benefit because these is going to benefit because these is going to benefit because these decisions are not going to lag as long decisions are not going to lag as long decisions are not going to lag as long you're going to get more energy and you're going to get more energy and you're going to get more energy and belief and likely resources behind them belief and likely resources behind them belief and likely resources behind them and at the end of the day like budgets and at the end of the day like budgets and at the end of the day like budgets roll around every year right and so when roll around every year right and so when roll around every year right and so when we're talking about investing maybe we're talking about investing maybe we're talking about investing maybe money into some of these initiatives money into some of these initiatives money into some of these initiatives like next year you might have to answer like next year you might have to answer like next year you might have to answer for these these initiatives and say like for these these initiatives and say like for these these initiatives and say like okay are we doing this again and you may okay are we doing this again and you may okay are we doing this again and you may you may have to prove why it's worth you may have to prove why it's worth you may have to prove why it's worth doing again why because economically doing again why because economically doing again why because economically we're a little bit strapped more than we're a little bit strapped more than we're a little bit strapped more than more than we more than we maybe we ever more than we more than we maybe we ever more than we more than we maybe we ever have been um and so we're all feeling have been um and so we're all feeling have been um and so we're all feeling that economic pressure and so to have that economic pressure and so to have that economic pressure and so to have these testimonies this feedback to say these testimonies this feedback to say these testimonies this feedback to say yeah we tried this last year budget's yeah we tried this last year budget's yeah we tried this last year budget's rolling around again the costs for this rolling around again the costs for this rolling around again the costs for this have gone up or whatever but here's why have gone up or whatever but here's why have gone up or whatever but here's why we should do it again that can really we should do it again that can really we should do it again that can really serve you well yeah and one project will serve you well yeah and one project will serve you well yeah and one project will then lead to another project what leads then lead to another project what leads then lead to another project what leads to another to the theme of this episode

to another to the theme of this episode to another to the theme of this episode we say it at the end of every show thank we say it at the end of every show thank we say it at the end of every show thank you for your time attention and trust it you for your time attention and trust it you for your time attention and trust it really does mean to the world to us really does mean to the world to us really does mean to the world to us we'll talk to you next we'll talk to you next we'll talk to you next Wednesday see I like I like a rollup Wednesday see I like I like a rollup Wednesday see I like I like a rollup sleeve then the sleeve is it loses its sleeve then the sleeve is it loses its sleeve then the sleeve is it loses its elasticity compromise the the fit maybe elasticity compromise the the fit maybe elasticity compromise the the fit maybe going forward you elevate the fit short going forward you elevate the fit short going forward you elevate the fit short term but you compromise the fit long term but you compromise the fit long term but you compromise the fit long term is it worth it we'll find out we'll term is it worth it we'll find out we'll term is it worth it we'll find out we'll see how how long they last up today it's see how how long they last up today it's see how how long they last up today it's not in a short form video 60 seconds not in a short form video 60 seconds not in a short form video 60 seconds okay