The Gen Z Church Communication Playbook

We've all seen the claims. coming back We've all seen the claims. coming back to church. Gen Z's on TikTok. Gen Z to church. Gen Z's on TikTok. Gen Z to church. Gen Z's on TikTok. Gen Z wants authenticity. Here's what we wants authenticity. Here's what we wants authenticity. Here's what we found. When you get to the root of each found. When you get to the root of each found. When you get to the root of each of these claims, often the sourcing is of these claims, often the sourcing is of these claims, often the sourcing is unverifyable, unverifyable, unverifyable, a little bit off, or not existing at a little bit off, or not existing at a little bit off, or not existing at all. On the other hand, some of the data all. On the other hand, some of the data all. On the other hand, some of the data is genuinely compelling. So, today we're is genuinely compelling. So, today we're is genuinely compelling. So, today we're doing something a little different. doing something a little different. doing something a little different. We've taken the biggest claims that We've taken the biggest claims that We've taken the biggest claims that people make about Gen Z and church and people make about Gen Z and church and people make about Gen Z and church and rated them on a confidence scale. High rated them on a confidence scale. High rated them on a confidence scale. High confidence, moderate confidence, low confidence, moderate confidence, low confidence, moderate confidence, low confidence. And not based on vibes, but confidence. And not based on vibes, but confidence. And not based on vibes, but based on whether we could trace the based on whether we could trace the based on whether we could trace the claim to a real study with a real claim to a real study with a real claim to a real study with a real methodology and a real sample size. Some methodology and a real sample size. Some methodology and a real sample size. Some of what we found surprised us, and we of what we found surprised us, and we of what we found surprised us, and we think it might surprise you, as well. think it might surprise you, as well. think it might surprise you, as well. Well, hey there, and welcome to the Pro Well, hey there, and welcome to the Pro Well, hey there, and welcome to the Pro Church Tool Show. We're here to help you Church Tool Show. We're here to help you Church Tool Show. We're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm Brady Shearer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Shearer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Shearer, your host. I'm joined as always by my co-host. We call him the always by my co-host. We call him the always by my co-host. We call him the godly gas man. It's Alexander Mills. godly gas man. It's Alexander Mills. godly gas man. It's Alexander Mills. Hello. Hello. So, if you pull up any Gen Hello. Hello. So, if you pull up any Gen Hello. Hello. So, if you pull up any Gen Z statistics article, okay? You're going Z statistics article, okay? You're going Z statistics article, okay? You're going to find claims of all times. 85% of Gen to find claims of all times. 85% of Gen to find claims of all times. 85% of Gen Z prefer low-fi videos. 74% follow micro Z prefer low-fi videos. 74% follow micro Z prefer low-fi videos. 74% follow micro influencers. User-generated content gets influencers. User-generated content gets influencers. User-generated content gets 4.2x more engagement. The problem with 4.2x more engagement. The problem with 4.2x more engagement. The problem with data of this type, and it's not unique data of this type, and it's not unique data of this type, and it's not unique to Gen Z, this has existed since the to Gen Z, this has existed since the to Gen Z, this has existed since the dawn of the internet, is that you'll dawn of the internet, is that you'll dawn of the internet, is that you'll find one of the articles, or even worse, find one of the articles, or even worse, find one of the articles, or even worse, you know the biggest offenders?

you know the biggest offenders? you know the biggest offenders? Infographics. Infographics. Infographics. >> Yeah. That has cited this, and you'll >> Yeah. That has cited this, and you'll >> Yeah. That has cited this, and you'll try to find on the page where the source try to find on the page where the source try to find on the page where the source is. is. is. And sometimes you can't. Often you can. And sometimes you can't. Often you can. And sometimes you can't. Often you can. You click the source, and it goes to You click the source, and it goes to You click the source, and it goes to another blog that like looks identical, another blog that like looks identical, another blog that like looks identical, and you're like, "Oh, okay." And then and you're like, "Oh, okay." And then and you're like, "Oh, okay." And then you click that one. you click that one. you click that one. And you you just kind of like go from And you you just kind of like go from And you you just kind of like go from blog to blog until eventually you get to blog to blog until eventually you get to blog to blog until eventually you get to a dead end, and you realize, "Wait, does a dead end, and you realize, "Wait, does a dead end, and you realize, "Wait, does this have an actual source, or was just this have an actual source, or was just this have an actual source, or was just regurgitated over and over from one blog regurgitated over and over from one blog regurgitated over and over from one blog to another?" And because they're so to another?" And because they're so to another?" And because they're so What we have done What we have done What we have done to this point, it's becoming more to this point, it's becoming more to this point, it's becoming more rigorous as we rigorous as we rigorous as we uh interrogate these data points, is if uh interrogate these data points, is if uh interrogate these data points, is if we even see a link that says like source we even see a link that says like source we even see a link that says like source and then and then and then a citation that looks legitimate like a citation that looks legitimate like a citation that looks legitimate like source Northwestern University like must source Northwestern University like must source Northwestern University like must be some I'm sure Northwestern did this be some I'm sure Northwestern did this be some I'm sure Northwestern did this until you actually click through and you until you actually click through and you until you actually click through and you realize wait a minute realize wait a minute realize wait a minute these don't exist. Specifically to Gen Z these don't exist. Specifically to Gen Z these don't exist. Specifically to Gen Z there is one offender called SQ there is one offender called SQ there is one offender called SQ Magazine. They're famous for publishing Magazine. They're famous for publishing Magazine. They're famous for publishing like these listical types of articles like these listical types of articles like these listical types of articles infographics. They get cited and then infographics. They get cited and then infographics. They get cited and then again you go through this like circular again you go through this like circular again you go through this like circular loop and realize wait a minute. Who's loop and realize wait a minute. Who's loop and realize wait a minute. Who's SQ's source? There is no beginning.

SQ's source? There is no beginning. SQ's source? There is no beginning. >> SQ is the source. Yeah, and does SQ >> SQ is the source. Yeah, and does SQ >> SQ is the source. Yeah, and does SQ conduct research? No. Now this isn't conduct research? No. Now this isn't conduct research? No. Now this isn't against SQ. You don't need to conduct against SQ. You don't need to conduct against SQ. You don't need to conduct research to publish research. Here we research to publish research. Here we research to publish research. Here we are going to talk about it. We're not are going to talk about it. We're not are going to talk about it. We're not conducting it, okay? But this does conducting it, okay? But this does conducting it, okay? But this does matter because churches will listen and matter because churches will listen and matter because churches will listen and hear these types of things and that will hear these types of things and that will hear these types of things and that will form their beliefs about a certain age form their beliefs about a certain age form their beliefs about a certain age group. And so is it true is it not? That group. And so is it true is it not? That group. And so is it true is it not? That is the purpose of this podcast. Now is the purpose of this podcast. Now is the purpose of this podcast. Now we're not going to say true or not. we're not going to say true or not. we're not going to say true or not. We're going to say high confidence We're going to say high confidence We're going to say high confidence moderate confidence or low confidence. moderate confidence or low confidence. moderate confidence or low confidence. Maybe we'll go low mod. Maybe we'll go Maybe we'll go low mod. Maybe we'll go Maybe we'll go low mod. Maybe we'll go mod high. We'll see. And it's it's mod high. We'll see. And it's it's mod high. We'll see. And it's it's particularly pointed in the moment as it particularly pointed in the moment as it particularly pointed in the moment as it relates to Gen Z because relates to Gen Z because relates to Gen Z because churches are facing all manner of churches are facing all manner of churches are facing all manner of challenges some unique some not but when challenges some unique some not but when challenges some unique some not but when you see a hopeful statistic about Gen Z you see a hopeful statistic about Gen Z you see a hopeful statistic about Gen Z it's maybe you don't even even look for it's maybe you don't even even look for it's maybe you don't even even look for the source because it feeds into the the source because it feeds into the the source because it feeds into the story that you're already facing in your story that you're already facing in your story that you're already facing in your church is like oh Gen Z is X Y or Z church is like oh Gen Z is X Y or Z church is like oh Gen Z is X Y or Z great or Gen Z is X Y or Z oh that's not great or Gen Z is X Y or Z oh that's not great or Gen Z is X Y or Z oh that's not great and it's feeding into the story great and it's feeding into the story great and it's feeding into the story that we're already kind of wrestling that we're already kind of wrestling that we're already kind of wrestling with. So I would say and in the AI era with. So I would say and in the AI era with. So I would say and in the AI era we know that um we know that um we know that um these LLMs are not particularly strong.

these LLMs are not particularly strong. these LLMs are not particularly strong. They're getting stronger but not They're getting stronger but not They're getting stronger but not particularly strong at generating always particularly strong at generating always particularly strong at generating always reliable sources. Sometimes they're reliable sources. Sometimes they're reliable sources. Sometimes they're pulling the SQ moment um on themselves pulling the SQ moment um on themselves pulling the SQ moment um on themselves and generating their own stats. In this and generating their own stats. In this and generating their own stats. In this in this moment it's imperative that we in this moment it's imperative that we in this moment it's imperative that we know or at least make an effort to know or at least make an effort to know or at least make an effort to discern like what can we have high discern like what can we have high discern like what can we have high confidence in um to help us make confidence in um to help us make confidence in um to help us make informed decisions in what we're doing informed decisions in what we're doing informed decisions in what we're doing at church and you know, what are some at church and you know, what are some at church and you know, what are some things that maybe are are low confidence things that maybe are are low confidence things that maybe are are low confidence and and in some cases entirely fake and and in some cases entirely fake and and in some cases entirely fake news. So what you will find as we go news. So what you will find as we go news. So what you will find as we go through all of this is an index of through all of this is an index of through all of this is an index of citations in the description so you can citations in the description so you can citations in the description so you can track these down yourself. track these down yourself. track these down yourself. We've made the effort to put that We've made the effort to put that We've made the effort to put that together and let's start with claim together and let's start with claim together and let's start with claim number one, Alexander. number one, Alexander. number one, Alexander. >> high confidence in this claim and the >> high confidence in this claim and the >> high confidence in this claim and the claim is that Gen Z churchgoers attend claim is that Gen Z churchgoers attend claim is that Gen Z churchgoers attend more frequently, but more frequently, but more frequently, but there's a little bit of fine print. there's a little bit of fine print. there's a little bit of fine print. Right. This is maybe the most circulated Right. This is maybe the most circulated Right. This is maybe the most circulated headline that we're seeing right now, headline that we're seeing right now, headline that we're seeing right now, which is Gen Z which is Gen Z which is Gen Z the most church attending generation in the most church attending generation in the most church attending generation in America and we are rejoicing. There are America and we are rejoicing. There are America and we are rejoicing. There are Instagram reels, there are TikToks, Instagram reels, there are TikToks, Instagram reels, there are TikToks, there are articles, there are statements there are articles, there are statements there are articles, there are statements being made from stage at conferences being made from stage at conferences being made from stage at conferences about this is amazing. Like we've never about this is amazing. Like we've never about this is amazing. Like we've never seen this. It is unprecedented. This is seen this. It is unprecedented. This is seen this. It is unprecedented. This is a historical moment. So our rating on a historical moment. So our rating on a historical moment. So our rating on this is high this is high this is high in that the data is correct. The problem in that the data is correct. The problem in that the data is correct. The problem is that the claim has been very is that the claim has been very is that the claim has been very misleading to this point. So we're here misleading to this point. So we're here misleading to this point. So we're here to parse this out. The research is from to parse this out. The research is from to parse this out. The research is from Barna and here's what they actually Barna and here's what they actually Barna and here's what they actually found. This is from the State of the found. This is from the State of the found. This is from the State of the Church 2025 in partnership with Glue, Church 2025 in partnership with Glue, Church 2025 in partnership with Glue, which is a church tech company. The which is a church tech company. The which is a church tech company. The sample was roughly 5,500 adults sample was roughly 5,500 adults sample was roughly 5,500 adults taken from January through July of 2025.

taken from January through July of 2025. taken from January through July of 2025. It's part of this 25-year study. So the It's part of this 25-year study. So the It's part of this 25-year study. So the State of the Church from Barna is this State of the Church from Barna is this State of the Church from Barna is this annual update and so the 2025 portion annual update and so the 2025 portion annual update and so the 2025 portion was 5,500 adults, but there have been was 5,500 adults, but there have been was 5,500 adults, but there have been 130,000 plus interviews over this 130,000 plus interviews over this 130,000 plus interviews over this quarter century. quarter century. quarter century. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So what did they found? So what did they found? So what did they found? The key distinction The key distinction The key distinction and the reason we're trying to and the reason we're trying to and the reason we're trying to disentangle this disentangle this disentangle this is that the headline is that the headline is that the headline is based on adults who already go to is based on adults who already go to is based on adults who already go to church. church. church. >> Right. So Ryan Burge, who's a >> Right. So Ryan Burge, who's a >> Right. So Ryan Burge, who's a sociologist at Washington University, sociologist at Washington University, sociologist at Washington University, friend of the show, studies religion friend of the show, studies religion friend of the show, studies religion full-time, full-time, full-time, he has been calling this out publicly he has been calling this out publicly he has been calling this out publicly and loudly. and loudly. and loudly. He says, look, He says, look, He says, look, it the the the data doesn't say that Gen it the the the data doesn't say that Gen it the the the data doesn't say that Gen Z is the most religious generation. Z is the most religious generation. Z is the most religious generation. Which is how it's often framed. Which is how it's often framed. Which is how it's often framed. >> Right, right. Because if you hear that >> Right, right. Because if you hear that >> Right, right. Because if you hear that they're the most church-going they're the most church-going they're the most church-going generation, oh they they attend church generation, oh they they attend church generation, oh they they attend church at the highest frequency. at the highest frequency. at the highest frequency. >> start throwing around the word revival, >> start throwing around the word revival, >> start throwing around the word revival, the young people are there's a revival the young people are there's a revival the young people are there's a revival going on, and people are coming back to going on, and people are coming back to going on, and people are coming back to church. church. church. >> Gen Z attending at the highest frequency >> Gen Z attending at the highest frequency >> Gen Z attending at the highest frequency if all you're looking at is people who if all you're looking at is people who if all you're looking at is people who already go to church. Right. So, what already go to church. Right. So, what already go to church. Right. So, what that means is what it actually says that means is what it actually says that means is what it actually says is that is that is that Gen Z, which is 18 to 28, Gen Z, which is 18 to 28, Gen Z, which is 18 to 28, >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Mhm. on average on average on average goes to 1.9 goes to 1.9 goes to 1.9 church services per month, which is church services per month, which is church services per month, which is dramatically higher than millennials at dramatically higher than millennials at dramatically higher than millennials at 1.8. And these are church-going Gen Zs. 1.8. And these are church-going Gen Zs. 1.8. And these are church-going Gen Zs. 1.6 for Gen X, 1.4 for boomers and 1.6 for Gen X, 1.4 for boomers and 1.6 for Gen X, 1.4 for boomers and elders. elders. elders. That's of the group that goes to church. That's of the group that goes to church. That's of the group that goes to church. >> Yes. But Gen Z, the actual full >> Yes. But Gen Z, the actual full >> Yes. But Gen Z, the actual full generation has the highest rate of never generation has the highest rate of never generation has the highest rate of never attending church. attending church. attending church. >> what? 30 What is it? 38%? >> what? 30 What is it? 38%? >> what? 30 What is it? 38%? >> is more than double the boomer average >> is more than double the boomer average >> is more than double the boomer average at the same age. We're comparing age at the same age. We're comparing age at the same age. We're comparing age cohorts there. cohorts there. cohorts there. So, this is like survivorship bias, So, this is like survivorship bias, So, this is like survivorship bias, right? right? right? And what we see here is okay, Gen Z And what we see here is okay, Gen Z And what we see here is okay, Gen Z frequency may be rising. Why? Because frequency may be rising. Why? Because frequency may be rising. Why? Because casual churchgoers have dropped out casual churchgoers have dropped out casual churchgoers have dropped out entirely. Right. entirely. Right. entirely. Right. >> The cultural Christianity trend from >> The cultural Christianity trend from >> The cultural Christianity trend from previous generations doesn't exist with previous generations doesn't exist with previous generations doesn't exist with Gen Z. So, you have this smaller but Gen Z. So, you have this smaller but Gen Z. So, you have this smaller but more devoted more devoted more devoted >> Mhm. core group. And that is what's >> Mhm. core group. And that is what's >> Mhm. core group. And that is what's actually happening here. That's where actually happening here. That's where actually happening here. That's where our high confidence is. Yes, the group our high confidence is. Yes, the group our high confidence is. Yes, the group of Gen Z that does attend church, they of Gen Z that does attend church, they of Gen Z that does attend church, they really, really care. But all together, really, really care. But all together, really, really care. But all together, that group is still meaningfully smaller that group is still meaningfully smaller that group is still meaningfully smaller than previous generations.

than previous generations. than previous generations. >> it's important that, you know, I really >> it's important that, you know, I really >> it's important that, you know, I really respect Ryan uh not just for for how he respect Ryan uh not just for for how he respect Ryan uh not just for for how he has responded to some of these has responded to some of these has responded to some of these sensational headlines about Gen Z and sensational headlines about Gen Z and sensational headlines about Gen Z and their church-going habits, but just his their church-going habits, but just his their church-going habits, but just his work as a whole. Because Ryan is not work as a whole. Because Ryan is not work as a whole. Because Ryan is not going out of his way to be like a going out of his way to be like a going out of his way to be like a curmudgeon or, you know, pour water on curmudgeon or, you know, pour water on curmudgeon or, you know, pour water on the revival fire. He's just saying like the revival fire. He's just saying like the revival fire. He's just saying like the data does not say does not reflect the data does not say does not reflect the data does not say does not reflect what some of these sensationalized what some of these sensationalized what some of these sensationalized headlines are saying and that's headlines are saying and that's headlines are saying and that's important because it's important for a important because it's important for a important because it's important for a church to know church to know church to know that that that yes, the Gen Z folks in your church are yes, the Gen Z folks in your church are yes, the Gen Z folks in your church are highly engaged and for anyone who works highly engaged and for anyone who works highly engaged and for anyone who works or serves or just attends in church, or serves or just attends in church, or serves or just attends in church, that's not hard to see. The Gen Z folks that's not hard to see. The Gen Z folks that's not hard to see. The Gen Z folks who belong to my church are like some of who belong to my church are like some of who belong to my church are like some of the most eager people in the community the most eager people in the community the most eager people in the community as far as like their interest and their as far as like their interest and their as far as like their interest and their um their earnestness to like really take um their earnestness to like really take um their earnestness to like really take the faith the faith the faith seriously. They're they're just so seriously. They're they're just so seriously. They're they're just so highly engaged, but it's important for highly engaged, but it's important for highly engaged, but it's important for my church to know that in my region the my church to know that in my region the my church to know that in my region the the the folks who are 18 to 28 who the the folks who are 18 to 28 who the the folks who are 18 to 28 who represent Gen Z are not going to church represent Gen Z are not going to church represent Gen Z are not going to church at an unprecedented rate and that's at an unprecedented rate and that's at an unprecedented rate and that's really important information for for me really important information for for me really important information for for me to know as a as a pastor, someone who to know as a as a pastor, someone who to know as a as a pastor, someone who who's responsible for who's responsible for who's responsible for yeah, you know, curating a Christian yeah, you know, curating a Christian yeah, you know, curating a Christian community and sharing the gospel story community and sharing the gospel story community and sharing the gospel story of Jesus across all generations. It's of Jesus across all generations. It's of Jesus across all generations. It's important for me to know that that yeah, important for me to know that that yeah, important for me to know that that yeah, the the the portion of these folks who the the the portion of these folks who the the the portion of these folks who are in my church very engaged, that's are in my church very engaged, that's are in my church very engaged, that's meaningful, but there's a a larger meaningful, but there's a a larger meaningful, but there's a a larger portion of that generation than ever who portion of that generation than ever who portion of that generation than ever who have no interest and and that needs to have no interest and and that needs to have no interest and and that needs to inform how how we do what we do in

inform how how we do what we do in inform how how we do what we do in church as well. Yeah, we're really not church as well. Yeah, we're really not church as well. Yeah, we're really not trying to be like downers with this trying to be like downers with this trying to be like downers with this episode. I think it could be interpreted episode. I think it could be interpreted episode. I think it could be interpreted that way. What I really care about is that way. What I really care about is that way. What I really care about is getting to what do we think is genuinely getting to what do we think is genuinely getting to what do we think is genuinely true? true? true? >> Yeah. I would much prefer to be >> Yeah. I would much prefer to be >> Yeah. I would much prefer to be confident in something that is like less confident in something that is like less confident in something that is like less exciting overall but true than exciting overall but true than exciting overall but true than run with something for a few years and run with something for a few years and run with something for a few years and then eventually realize it was then eventually realize it was then eventually realize it was misleading or false all along. Because misleading or false all along. Because misleading or false all along. Because you can't just like make interpretation you can't just like make interpretation you can't just like make interpretation of data circulate it amongst an entire of data circulate it amongst an entire of data circulate it amongst an entire subculture subculture subculture believe it and then not realize believe it and then not realize believe it and then not realize eventually that it was wrong. Right. And eventually that it was wrong. Right. And eventually that it was wrong. Right. And when you do eventually realize it was when you do eventually realize it was when you do eventually realize it was wrong, what happens to all those people wrong, what happens to all those people wrong, what happens to all those people who heard it? who heard it? who heard it? That erodes trust. That erodes trust. That erodes trust. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I remember that happening when I was >> And I remember that happening when I was >> And I remember that happening when I was a young person. Things being said from a young person. Things being said from a young person. Things being said from stage and believing them because they stage and believing them because they stage and believing them because they were said from stage, finding out they were said from stage, finding out they were said from stage, finding out they were untrue. What does that do? It were untrue. What does that do? It were untrue. What does that do? It causes you to go, "Well, what else was causes you to go, "Well, what else was causes you to go, "Well, what else was said that was untrue?" said that was untrue?" said that was untrue?" >> Mhm. Like that trust is so important. >> Mhm. Like that trust is so important. >> Mhm. Like that trust is so important. And so I would much rather throw a And so I would much rather throw a And so I would much rather throw a little bit of cold water on something to little bit of cold water on something to little bit of cold water on something to get to the heart of it than just go, get to the heart of it than just go, get to the heart of it than just go, "You know what? This might be untrue, "You know what? This might be untrue, "You know what? This might be untrue, but it's exciting and we need to win."

but it's exciting and we need to win." but it's exciting and we need to win." and going with it. That's right. Now, and going with it. That's right. Now, and going with it. That's right. Now, commonly when this commonly when this commonly when this uh data point gets circulated, sometimes uh data point gets circulated, sometimes uh data point gets circulated, sometimes in corroboration of it, you'll hear in corroboration of it, you'll hear in corroboration of it, you'll hear another state uh study from the Bible another state uh study from the Bible another state uh study from the Bible Society. Society. Society. This is a UK-driven that says 18- to This is a UK-driven that says 18- to This is a UK-driven that says 18- to 24-year-olds, their monthly attendance 24-year-olds, their monthly attendance 24-year-olds, their monthly attendance quadrupled from 4 to 16%. That's the the quadrupled from 4 to 16%. That's the the quadrupled from 4 to 16%. That's the the quiet revival is often how it's framed. quiet revival is often how it's framed. quiet revival is often how it's framed. >> Right. And so we just want to be clear >> Right. And so we just want to be clear >> Right. And so we just want to be clear that this has been highly uh criticized that this has been highly uh criticized that this has been highly uh criticized or at least scrutinized. Uh Pew Research or at least scrutinized. Uh Pew Research or at least scrutinized. Uh Pew Research published a specific piece saying, published a specific piece saying, published a specific piece saying, quote, "Maybe misleading." quote, "Maybe misleading." quote, "Maybe misleading." Uh Professor David Voas pointed to Uh Professor David Voas pointed to Uh Professor David Voas pointed to another gold-standard British social another gold-standard British social another gold-standard British social studies uh social uh social attitudes studies uh social uh social attitudes studies uh social uh social attitudes survey survey survey that said, "Well, actually churchgoers that said, "Well, actually churchgoers that said, "Well, actually churchgoers in this study fell from 12% to 9% over in this study fell from 12% to 9% over in this study fell from 12% to 9% over that same period, which is an opposite that same period, which is an opposite that same period, which is an opposite trend." trend." trend." >> Right. There was Catholic Church records >> Right. There was Catholic Church records >> Right. There was Catholic Church records in the UK, which showed in the same in the UK, which showed in the same in the UK, which showed in the same period Sunday mass attendance in England period Sunday mass attendance in England period Sunday mass attendance in England and Wales dropping 21%. So this um and Wales dropping 21%. So this um and Wales dropping 21%. So this um study has said, "Okay, we're going to study has said, "Okay, we're going to study has said, "Okay, we're going to rerun it to make sure that it's true." rerun it to make sure that it's true." rerun it to make sure that it's true." Um but this is like another one of those Um but this is like another one of those Um but this is like another one of those things where like a study's run, it gets things where like a study's run, it gets things where like a study's run, it gets circulated, and then when it gets circulated, and then when it gets circulated, and then when it gets circulated enough, you have other people circulated enough, you have other people circulated enough, you have other people going, "Well, wait a minute. If you look going, "Well, wait a minute. If you look going, "Well, wait a minute. If you look at the at the at the you know, evaluators there, how it was you know, evaluators there, how it was you know, evaluators there, how it was done, I don't know. We have opposite done, I don't know. We have opposite done, I don't know. We have opposite data saying the opposite thing, so data saying the opposite thing, so data saying the opposite thing, so at the end of the day, for this point at the end of the day, for this point at the end of the day, for this point here, for Gen Z, here, for Gen Z, here, for Gen Z, most likely to never set foot in church most likely to never set foot in church most likely to never set foot in church relative to other generations, but most relative to other generations, but most relative to other generations, but most intensely engaged when they do.

intensely engaged when they do. intensely engaged when they do. >> So that casual middle, the cultural >> So that casual middle, the cultural >> So that casual middle, the cultural churchgoer in this generation in churchgoer in this generation in churchgoer in this generation in particular, seems to be gone. You're particular, seems to be gone. You're particular, seems to be gone. You're either all in or all out. either all in or all out. either all in or all out. >> Right, which is like okay, we can work >> Right, which is like okay, we can work >> Right, which is like okay, we can work from there. from there. from there. >> Yes, I understand this. That's really >> Yes, I understand this. That's really >> Yes, I understand this. That's really interesting. Okay, where do we go from interesting. Okay, where do we go from interesting. Okay, where do we go from here? here? here? >> Yeah. Want to move on to the next claim? >> Yeah. Want to move on to the next claim? >> Yeah. Want to move on to the next claim? Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. >> We hold this one with moderate >> We hold this one with moderate >> We hold this one with moderate confidence. If you're a If you got confidence. If you're a If you got confidence. If you're a If you got If you're a visual um kind of learner, If you're a visual um kind of learner, If you're a visual um kind of learner, give that first one the high confidence give that first one the high confidence give that first one the high confidence green. Mhm. Moderate confidence, this is green. Mhm. Moderate confidence, this is green. Mhm. Moderate confidence, this is a yellow flag, yellow light. a yellow flag, yellow light. a yellow flag, yellow light. >> Right. All right. Proceed with caution. >> Right. All right. Proceed with caution. >> Right. All right. Proceed with caution. >> Here it is. The gender shift in church >> Here it is. The gender shift in church >> Here it is. The gender shift in church attendance. The claim is that men now attendance. The claim is that men now attendance. The claim is that men now attend church more than women, attend church more than women, attend church more than women, especially young men. especially young men. especially young men. So, we're giving this mod con, moderate So, we're giving this mod con, moderate So, we're giving this mod con, moderate confidence. confidence. confidence. Again, this comes from Barna. So, they Again, this comes from Barna. So, they Again, this comes from Barna. So, they have men weekly attendance at 43 to 45% have men weekly attendance at 43 to 45% have men weekly attendance at 43 to 45% and they have women at 36%, which would and they have women at 36%, which would and they have women at 36%, which would be for them the largest gender gap in be for them the largest gender gap in be for them the largest gender gap in Barna's history. Barna's history. Barna's history. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. What we're seeing here in the critical What we're seeing here in the critical What we're seeing here in the critical framing is that So, Barna itself is framing is that So, Barna itself is framing is that So, Barna itself is describing this as we're losing women describing this as we're losing women describing this as we're losing women more than we're gaining men. Okay, and more than we're gaining men. Okay, and more than we're gaining men. Okay, and that's an important distinction.

that's an important distinction. that's an important distinction. Materially different than men are Materially different than men are Materially different than men are surging back. surging back. surging back. Right, like if you had two groups of Right, like if you had two groups of Right, like if you had two groups of people and women were just leaving, people and women were just leaving, people and women were just leaving, that's more reflective on what's that's more reflective on what's that's more reflective on what's happening with women happening with women happening with women than what's happening with men. But, the than what's happening with men. But, the than what's happening with men. But, the framing is young men are coming back to framing is young men are coming back to framing is young men are coming back to church. church. church. >> Right. And that's a such such an >> Right. And that's a such such an >> Right. And that's a such such an illustrative illustrative illustrative like piece when it comes to interpreting like piece when it comes to interpreting like piece when it comes to interpreting data cuz you can totally understand data cuz you can totally understand data cuz you can totally understand that. that. that. >> is good news, one is bad news. >> is good news, one is bad news. >> is good news, one is bad news. >> I used to come I used to come into this >> I used to come I used to come into this >> I used to come I used to come into this room and there was like way more women room and there was like way more women room and there was like way more women than men and now there's way more men than men and now there's way more men than men and now there's way more men than women. Men are coming back. No, than women. Men are coming back. No, than women. Men are coming back. No, everyone's just leaving. everyone's just leaving. everyone's just leaving. It's just women are leaving faster. So, It's just women are leaving faster. So, It's just women are leaving faster. So, why are we not putting high confidence why are we not putting high confidence why are we not putting high confidence in this claim? Again, Ryan Burge in this claim? Again, Ryan Burge in this claim? Again, Ryan Burge published a specific rebuttal at the published a specific rebuttal at the published a specific rebuttal at the beginning of 2026 in January and he beginning of 2026 in January and he beginning of 2026 in January and he analyzed three independent data sets, analyzed three independent data sets, analyzed three independent data sets, CES, GSS, and Pew. That's always like CES, GSS, and Pew. That's always like CES, GSS, and Pew. That's always like useful, right? We have one data set, useful, right? We have one data set, useful, right? We have one data set, okay. That suggests this. Can we okay. That suggests this. Can we okay. That suggests this. Can we corroborate that claim with other data corroborate that claim with other data corroborate that claim with other data sets? And in this case, Ryan's sets? And in this case, Ryan's sets? And in this case, Ryan's conclusion was there was no convincing conclusion was there was no convincing conclusion was there was no convincing evidence that young men attend at higher evidence that young men attend at higher evidence that young men attend at higher rates than young women at a population rates than young women at a population rates than young women at a population level. And for Gen Z specifically, the level. And for Gen Z specifically, the level. And for Gen Z specifically, the sample sizes were so small that any firm sample sizes were so small that any firm sample sizes were so small that any firm conclusion was basically impossible to conclusion was basically impossible to conclusion was basically impossible to make.

make. make. In the broader In the broader In the broader landscape, landscape, landscape, Pew said, yes, the gender gap does Pew said, yes, the gender gap does Pew said, yes, the gender gap does appear to be narrowing, but there are no appear to be narrowing, but there are no appear to be narrowing, but there are no birth core cohorts where men are birth core cohorts where men are birth core cohorts where men are significantly more religious than women. significantly more religious than women. significantly more religious than women. So, the safest way I think I think So, the safest way I think I think So, the safest way I think I think describing this describing this describing this is that the old female advantage that is that the old female advantage that is that the old female advantage that used to exist in church, that has used to exist in church, that has used to exist in church, that has collapsed. collapsed. collapsed. The gap has reversed there. The gap has reversed there. The gap has reversed there. But, when we do these independent random But, when we do these independent random But, when we do these independent random sample surveys, we don't yet have sample surveys, we don't yet have sample surveys, we don't yet have confirmation that men are outpacing confirmation that men are outpacing confirmation that men are outpacing women at the population level. So, it's women at the population level. So, it's women at the population level. So, it's worth watching. worth watching. worth watching. We haven't like settled this debate yet. We haven't like settled this debate yet. We haven't like settled this debate yet. And we probably stop framing it as like And we probably stop framing it as like And we probably stop framing it as like men are surging back to church because men are surging back to church because men are surging back to church because that does appear to be untrue. Mhm. And that does appear to be untrue. Mhm. And that does appear to be untrue. Mhm. And you see why this kind of spending the you see why this kind of spending the you see why this kind of spending the time to wrestle with this data is time to wrestle with this data is time to wrestle with this data is important as a pastor, as a church staff important as a pastor, as a church staff important as a pastor, as a church staff member, as a volunteer. Cuz you look out member, as a volunteer. Cuz you look out member, as a volunteer. Cuz you look out at your congregation, and if you if you at your congregation, and if you if you at your congregation, and if you if you frame what you're seeing, maybe a if you frame what you're seeing, maybe a if you frame what you're seeing, maybe a if you see this in your congregation reflected see this in your congregation reflected see this in your congregation reflected that there is a a gender gap, that that there is a a gender gap, that that there is a a gender gap, that there's there's more men in your there's there's more men in your there's there's more men in your congregation currently than women. If congregation currently than women. If congregation currently than women. If you frame it as men are surging back, you frame it as men are surging back, you frame it as men are surging back, then you look out at your room and you then you look out at your room and you then you look out at your room and you you can describe like a positive signal you can describe like a positive signal you can describe like a positive signal to that. Be like, wow, whatever we're to that. Be like, wow, whatever we're to that. Be like, wow, whatever we're doing is really resonating with men.

doing is really resonating with men. doing is really resonating with men. Whereas, if you consider the data, and Whereas, if you consider the data, and Whereas, if you consider the data, and if you if you find value in the story if you if you find value in the story if you if you find value in the story that, well, it's not actually men that that, well, it's not actually men that that, well, it's not actually men that are returning, but it's women that are are returning, but it's women that are are returning, but it's women that are leaving, then you look out at the room leaving, then you look out at the room leaving, then you look out at the room and you say, oh, there's something about and you say, oh, there's something about and you say, oh, there's something about what's going on, whether in our church what's going on, whether in our church what's going on, whether in our church or the but probably more importantly the or the but probably more importantly the or the but probably more importantly the the broader church, um the capital C the broader church, um the capital C the broader church, um the capital C church as a whole, that is not church as a whole, that is not church as a whole, that is not resonating with women. Right. Pushing resonating with women. Right. Pushing resonating with women. Right. Pushing women away. women away. women away. >> need to be mindful of that. Yeah. >> need to be mindful of that. Yeah. >> need to be mindful of that. Yeah. We've got a high confidence claim coming We've got a high confidence claim coming We've got a high confidence claim coming in. We're so back. in. We're so back. in. We're so back. Uh this is uh this is the color green. Uh this is uh this is the color green. Uh this is uh this is the color green. Um YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok are Um YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok are Um YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok are the big three. So, let's get into the big three. So, let's get into the big three. So, let's get into social, right? We we we cover that on social, right? We we we cover that on social, right? We we we cover that on this show. The claim, Gen Z lives on this show. The claim, Gen Z lives on this show. The claim, Gen Z lives on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. If TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. If TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. If you're not there, you're just not going you're not there, you're just not going you're not there, you're just not going to be seen by this generation. And we're to be seen by this generation. And we're to be seen by this generation. And we're putting a high rating on this. There are putting a high rating on this. There are putting a high rating on this. There are multiple independent sources, large multiple independent sources, large multiple independent sources, large sample sizes, they all agree. I'm not sample sizes, they all agree. I'm not sample sizes, they all agree. I'm not going to read them out because reading going to read them out because reading going to read them out because reading out data without interesting commentary out data without interesting commentary out data without interesting commentary on the back end on the back end on the back end >> want to talk about N values here? >> want to talk about N values here? >> want to talk about N values here? Again, it's all in that indexing and the Again, it's all in that indexing and the Again, it's all in that indexing and the citations.

citations. citations. >> it for the folks who want to do it. >> it for the folks who want to do it. >> it for the folks who want to do it. Right. The easiest action here for Right. The easiest action here for Right. The easiest action here for churches is that like churches is that like churches is that like if all you have is like Facebook and a if all you have is like Facebook and a if all you have is like Facebook and a website, which made like perfect sense website, which made like perfect sense website, which made like perfect sense for maybe my generation and Alex's for maybe my generation and Alex's for maybe my generation and Alex's generation as like, you know, generation as like, you know, generation as like, you know, mid-30-year-olds back in the early mid-30-year-olds back in the early mid-30-year-olds back in the early 2010s, that is an antiquated approach to 2010s, that is an antiquated approach to 2010s, that is an antiquated approach to gaining attention and then downstream of gaining attention and then downstream of gaining attention and then downstream of that earning trust in the digital that earning trust in the digital that earning trust in the digital landscape, in that it used to be like we landscape, in that it used to be like we landscape, in that it used to be like we had the big four. had the big four. had the big four. I included Facebook with Instagram, I included Facebook with Instagram, I included Facebook with Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. The previous big TikTok, and YouTube. The previous big TikTok, and YouTube. The previous big three was like Facebook, Instagram, and three was like Facebook, Instagram, and three was like Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. YouTube. YouTube. And maybe Twitter. And so right now, And maybe Twitter. And so right now, And maybe Twitter. And so right now, like it's the big three. And when we do like it's the big three. And when we do like it's the big three. And when we do social media audits for churches, and social media audits for churches, and social media audits for churches, and you can get yours for free at you can get yours for free at you can get yours for free at auditmychurch.com, auditmychurch.com, auditmychurch.com, when we do free social media audits, we when we do free social media audits, we when we do free social media audits, we basically say, "Okay, send us in basically say, "Okay, send us in basically say, "Okay, send us in your efforts on the big three." your efforts on the big three." your efforts on the big three." Uh almost said Facebook again. Uh almost said Facebook again. Uh almost said Facebook again. Have it. Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. Have it. Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. Have it. Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. Those are the big three. And, you know, Those are the big three. And, you know, Those are the big three. And, you know, every church is going to have to make every church is going to have to make every church is going to have to make the decision of whether they're not the decision of whether they're not the decision of whether they're not whether or not they're on TikTok. I whether or not they're on TikTok. I whether or not they're on TikTok. I think that the choice is a little bit think that the choice is a little bit think that the choice is a little bit different now that the acquisition different now that the acquisition different now that the acquisition in the states has changed and the in the states has changed and the in the states has changed and the ownership group has changed from where ownership group has changed from where ownership group has changed from where it was a couple of years ago.

it was a couple of years ago. it was a couple of years ago. When I used to consult churches on this, When I used to consult churches on this, When I used to consult churches on this, say, "Hey, you know, if you're on say, "Hey, you know, if you're on say, "Hey, you know, if you're on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, and Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, and Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, and you're not on TikTok, like you're only you're not on TikTok, like you're only you're not on TikTok, like you're only losing one of the four. Okay. Now you're losing one of the four. Okay. Now you're losing one of the four. Okay. Now you're losing one of the three." And so like losing one of the three." And so like losing one of the three." And so like being absent there, I think has greater being absent there, I think has greater being absent there, I think has greater ramifications for Gen Z. ramifications for Gen Z. ramifications for Gen Z. And then it's not just Gen Z. The way And then it's not just Gen Z. The way And then it's not just Gen Z. The way that these changes happen is that that these changes happen is that that these changes happen is that they then continue with Gen Alpha. they then continue with Gen Alpha. they then continue with Gen Alpha. Right. So like This is how it was in Right. So like This is how it was in Right. So like This is how it was in 2010 when I was like, "Churches, you 2010 when I was like, "Churches, you 2010 when I was like, "Churches, you need to be on social." They're like, need to be on social." They're like, need to be on social." They're like, "Why? No one is on social except your "Why? No one is on social except your "Why? No one is on social except your generation." I was like, "Right." But generation." I was like, "Right." But generation." I was like, "Right." But everyone after my generation will be on. everyone after my generation will be on. everyone after my generation will be on. So it's not just this one group of young So it's not just this one group of young So it's not just this one group of young people, it's this new cohort and it will people, it's this new cohort and it will people, it's this new cohort and it will be everyone else going forward. Not to be everyone else going forward. Not to be everyone else going forward. Not to say that those three will exist say that those three will exist say that those three will exist indefinitely, shifts will happen, but indefinitely, shifts will happen, but indefinitely, shifts will happen, but it's also true of Gen Alpha. It's just it's also true of Gen Alpha. It's just it's also true of Gen Alpha. It's just that generations that lag and are still that generations that lag and are still that generations that lag and are still age minor are sometimes harder to get age minor are sometimes harder to get age minor are sometimes harder to get more reliable data on. Yeah, that's more reliable data on. Yeah, that's more reliable data on. Yeah, that's plausible that if we've seen Facebook plausible that if we've seen Facebook plausible that if we've seen Facebook fall off, you know, for any youth leader fall off, you know, for any youth leader fall off, you know, for any youth leader our age who has tried to communicate our age who has tried to communicate our age who has tried to communicate with their youth and tried to assemble a with their youth and tried to assemble a with their youth and tried to assemble a Facebook group or a Facebook Messenger, Facebook group or a Facebook Messenger, Facebook group or a Facebook Messenger, you know how Gen Z is not on Facebook you know how Gen Z is not on Facebook you know how Gen Z is not on Facebook cuz they say, "Face what? I'm not You cuz they say, "Face what? I'm not You cuz they say, "Face what? I'm not You cannot contact me there, youth leader."

cannot contact me there, youth leader." cannot contact me there, youth leader." So if Facebook fell off for Gen Z, well So if Facebook fell off for Gen Z, well So if Facebook fell off for Gen Z, well then it's it's plausible, you know, we then it's it's plausible, you know, we then it's it's plausible, you know, we we talk about the syndication era and we we talk about the syndication era and we we talk about the syndication era and we see these these see these these see these these generations being kind of syndicated generations being kind of syndicated generations being kind of syndicated onto these individual platforms. It's onto these individual platforms. It's onto these individual platforms. It's it's plausible that Instagram will be it's plausible that Instagram will be it's plausible that Instagram will be the next one to fall off for for Gen the next one to fall off for for Gen the next one to fall off for for Gen Alpha. Well, to that point, I did a call Alpha. Well, to that point, I did a call Alpha. Well, to that point, I did a call with like 50 youth pastors last week with like 50 youth pastors last week with like 50 youth pastors last week and one of the questions was, "How can I and one of the questions was, "How can I and one of the questions was, "How can I best communicate with my students' best communicate with my students' best communicate with my students' parents? Like, can I assemble a Facebook parents? Like, can I assemble a Facebook parents? Like, can I assemble a Facebook group?" And I said, "Yeah, you can." I group?" And I said, "Yeah, you can." I group?" And I said, "Yeah, you can." I said, said, said, "Except I have an 11-year-old who enters "Except I have an 11-year-old who enters "Except I have an 11-year-old who enters junior youth in September." junior youth in September." junior youth in September." And if you had a Facebook group to And if you had a Facebook group to And if you had a Facebook group to communicate with me, communicate with me, communicate with me, like as the parent, like as the parent, like as the parent, I'm not on Facebook now. And I said, now I'm not on Facebook now. And I said, now I'm not on Facebook now. And I said, now to be clear, relative to my neighbors, to be clear, relative to my neighbors, to be clear, relative to my neighbors, I'm like the youngest parent. So, this I'm like the youngest parent. So, this I'm like the youngest parent. So, this may not be true for like all your may not be true for like all your may not be true for like all your parents right now. This may still be parents right now. This may still be parents right now. This may still be like a 3 5 like a 3 5 like a 3 5 9-year lag, but if you wanted to 9-year lag, but if you wanted to 9-year lag, but if you wanted to communicate with me, an Instagram communicate with me, an Instagram communicate with me, an Instagram broadcast channel Yeah. or an Instagram broadcast channel Yeah. or an Instagram broadcast channel Yeah. or an Instagram group chat would be the best way because group chat would be the best way because group chat would be the best way because that's where I am. So, we need to not that's where I am. So, we need to not that's where I am. So, we need to not just update where the kids are, we need just update where the kids are, we need just update where the kids are, we need to update where the parents are.

to update where the parents are. to update where the parents are. >> We need to go back to landlines. Just >> We need to go back to landlines. Just >> We need to go back to landlines. Just pick up the phone and call. Mhm. pick up the phone and call. Mhm. pick up the phone and call. Mhm. Remember when you got an area code? Remember when you got an area code? Remember when you got an area code? Yeah. Miss those days. Yeah. Miss those days. Yeah. Miss those days. >> to remember nine digits Yeah. instead of >> to remember nine digits Yeah. instead of >> to remember nine digits Yeah. instead of seven seven seven >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> five, six How old are we? Well, I had a >> five, six How old are we? Well, I had a >> five, six How old are we? Well, I had a rotary phone. rotary phone. rotary phone. >> Pre-area codes? >> Pre-area codes? >> Pre-area codes? Jeez. 729-4186 Jeez. 729-4186 Jeez. 729-4186 I can say that cuz how else are you I can say that cuz how else are you I can say that cuz how else are you going to call it? You don't know the going to call it? You don't know the going to call it? You don't know the actual number now. actual number now. actual number now. All right, moving on. All right, moving on. All right, moving on. Uh the claim for a moderate uh again, Uh the claim for a moderate uh again, Uh the claim for a moderate uh again, the mod con, moderate confidence in this the mod con, moderate confidence in this the mod con, moderate confidence in this claim. The claim is that Gen Z prefers claim. The claim is that Gen Z prefers claim. The claim is that Gen Z prefers authentic low-fi content. Claims you'll authentic low-fi content. Claims you'll authentic low-fi content. Claims you'll see, 85% of Gen Z prefer low-fi videos. see, 85% of Gen Z prefer low-fi videos. see, 85% of Gen Z prefer low-fi videos. And when we say low-fi, we just mean And when we say low-fi, we just mean And when we say low-fi, we just mean like oh, shot on a phone versus like like oh, shot on a phone versus like like oh, shot on a phone versus like high production. high production. high production. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. UGC gets 4.2 times more engagement. UGC UGC gets 4.2 times more engagement. UGC UGC gets 4.2 times more engagement. UGC is an acronym in marketing for is an acronym in marketing for is an acronym in marketing for user-generated content. So, instead of user-generated content. So, instead of user-generated content. So, instead of like Sephora creating an ad for their like Sephora creating an ad for their like Sephora creating an ad for their like like like eyebrow cream eyebrow cream eyebrow cream >> Yeah. you have like >> Yeah. you have like >> Yeah. you have like Macy Right. Macy Right. Macy Right. >> on TikTok and she's like, get ready with >> on TikTok and she's like, get ready with >> on TikTok and she's like, get ready with me and she does it. And then she's like, me and she does it. And then she's like, me and she does it. And then she's like, oh, and by the way, this is a Sephora oh, and by the way, this is a Sephora oh, and by the way, this is a Sephora like that will get so much more sales like that will get so much more sales like that will get so much more sales for Sephora for that specific eyebrow for Sephora for that specific eyebrow for Sephora for that specific eyebrow whatever than Sephora advertising it whatever than Sephora advertising it whatever than Sephora advertising it themselves.

themselves. themselves. So, both of these stats trace back to So, both of these stats trace back to So, both of these stats trace back to the originally mentioned previously the originally mentioned previously the originally mentioned previously mentioned SQ magazine. mentioned SQ magazine. mentioned SQ magazine. >> again. Yeah. Don't seem to be any >> again. Yeah. Don't seem to be any >> again. Yeah. Don't seem to be any primary source for them. The 85% has no primary source for them. The 85% has no primary source for them. The 85% has no traceable study sample or methodology traceable study sample or methodology traceable study sample or methodology that we could find. And the 4.2 times that we could find. And the 4.2 times that we could find. And the 4.2 times in relation to UGC again, doesn't match in relation to UGC again, doesn't match in relation to UGC again, doesn't match anything that we could find. In fact, anything that we could find. In fact, anything that we could find. In fact, Stackla, Salesforce, SEMrush, and Stackla, Salesforce, SEMrush, and Stackla, Salesforce, SEMrush, and Maverick all report different numbers in Maverick all report different numbers in Maverick all report different numbers in different contexts. So, what is different contexts. So, what is different contexts. So, what is verifiable? What do we know? Well, we verifiable? What do we know? Well, we verifiable? What do we know? Well, we put Mod Con on this because the it does put Mod Con on this because the it does put Mod Con on this because the it does seem directionally correct. seem directionally correct. seem directionally correct. >> Right. But, the specific numbers are >> Right. But, the specific numbers are >> Right. But, the specific numbers are unreliable. And I guess like why get unreliable. And I guess like why get unreliable. And I guess like why get bogged down in the specific numbers if bogged down in the specific numbers if bogged down in the specific numbers if it's if it's 85% or 72% or whatever. it's if it's 85% or 72% or whatever. it's if it's 85% or 72% or whatever. But, we know, like you said, But, we know, like you said, But, we know, like you said, directionally, we know this to be true directionally, we know this to be true directionally, we know this to be true generally about this generation. Well, generally about this generation. Well, generally about this generation. Well, here's why I wanted to include this and here's why I wanted to include this and here's why I wanted to include this and just like interrogated a bit more. Look, just like interrogated a bit more. Look, just like interrogated a bit more. Look, the the big takeaway for a church is the the big takeaway for a church is the the big takeaway for a church is still here. Like an iPhone video of a still here. Like an iPhone video of a still here. Like an iPhone video of a real moment is still probably going to real moment is still probably going to real moment is still probably going to perform better than a $5,000 perform better than a $5,000 perform better than a $5,000 like vision video that you pay an agency like vision video that you pay an agency like vision video that you pay an agency to do. Probably. Mhm. But, like this to do. Probably. Mhm. But, like this to do. Probably. Mhm. But, like this claim was the claim about millennials. I claim was the claim about millennials. I claim was the claim about millennials. I don't know why people seem to forget don't know why people seem to forget don't know why people seem to forget that. I keep seeing Gen Z researchers that. I keep seeing Gen Z researchers that. I keep seeing Gen Z researchers like, "They prefer things that are like, "They prefer things that are like, "They prefer things that are authentic." No, that was our word. That authentic." No, that was our word. That authentic." No, that was our word. That was our thing. So, there might just be a was our thing. So, there might just be a was our thing. So, there might just be a general directional trend.

general directional trend. general directional trend. >> Right, a human element. That young >> Right, a human element. That young >> Right, a human element. That young people are like, "Whatever we perceive people are like, "Whatever we perceive people are like, "Whatever we perceive as manufactured, we prefer things that as manufactured, we prefer things that as manufactured, we prefer things that are more genuine." are more genuine." are more genuine." >> Mhm. And every generation is going to >> Mhm. And every generation is going to >> Mhm. And every generation is going to perceive something different as perceive something different as perceive something different as manufactured. We always use this example manufactured. We always use this example manufactured. We always use this example of the creative side where millennials of the creative side where millennials of the creative side where millennials were like, "Enough with these stock were like, "Enough with these stock were like, "Enough with these stock photos that look like plastic and photos that look like plastic and photos that look like plastic and everything's perfectly lit. We want our everything's perfectly lit. We want our everything's perfectly lit. We want our stock photos to have grit and grain to stock photos to have grit and grain to stock photos to have grit and grain to them and a cinematic edge. One is them and a cinematic edge. One is them and a cinematic edge. One is manufactured. One is genuine." And then manufactured. One is genuine." And then manufactured. One is genuine." And then the generation behind us was like, "Wow, the generation behind us was like, "Wow, the generation behind us was like, "Wow, these cinematic images of stock look so these cinematic images of stock look so these cinematic images of stock look so fake. That's not what real life looks fake. That's not what real life looks fake. That's not what real life looks like. You know what real life looks like. You know what real life looks like. You know what real life looks like? Photos taken on phones. One is like? Photos taken on phones. One is like? Photos taken on phones. One is fake. One is real." And different fake. One is real." And different fake. One is real." And different generations were just perceiving generations were just perceiving generations were just perceiving different creative expressions different creative expressions different creative expressions and assigning like almost ethical and assigning like almost ethical and assigning like almost ethical qualities to them. qualities to them. qualities to them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But, they were doing it in opposite But, they were doing it in opposite But, they were doing it in opposite ways, but they were still trying to get ways, but they were still trying to get ways, but they were still trying to get to the same heart of it, which was we to the same heart of it, which was we to the same heart of it, which was we want what we perceive to be genuine and want what we perceive to be genuine and want what we perceive to be genuine and authentic. authentic. authentic. >> Mhm. And so, the reason I think that's >> Mhm. And so, the reason I think that's >> Mhm. And so, the reason I think that's worth separating worth separating worth separating is that our generation, the millennials, crave our generation, the millennials, crave things that were authentic and genuine.

things that were authentic and genuine. things that were authentic and genuine. And the the And the the And the the what we what we what we tried to do with that in church was tried to do with that in church was tried to do with that in church was like, "Okay, stage lights are bad, and like, "Okay, stage lights are bad, and like, "Okay, stage lights are bad, and we need to And we got into all these we need to And we got into all these we need to And we got into all these specifics. specifics. specifics. I just haven't seen those born out in I just haven't seen those born out in I just haven't seen those born out in church like as a whole. Like there were church like as a whole. Like there were church like as a whole. Like there were promises of like, "We're just going to promises of like, "We're just going to promises of like, "We're just going to see all these like people return to like see all these like people return to like see all these like people return to like mainline denominations." And like mainline denominations." And like mainline denominations." And like I understand there are anecdotal I understand there are anecdotal I understand there are anecdotal stories that we can tell about that, but stories that we can tell about that, but stories that we can tell about that, but I don't see it. In the same way, like I don't see it. In the same way, like I don't see it. In the same way, like megachurches get criticized all the time megachurches get criticized all the time megachurches get criticized all the time of like, "We don't want to go to these of like, "We don't want to go to these of like, "We don't want to go to these megachurches. We actually just want megachurches. We actually just want megachurches. We actually just want these small like tiny things." We're not these small like tiny things." We're not these small like tiny things." We're not seeing that either. We're seeing like seeing that either. We're seeing like seeing that either. We're seeing like consolidation in church attendance, consolidation in church attendance, consolidation in church attendance, where the bigger churches continue to where the bigger churches continue to where the bigger churches continue to get bigger, and the smaller ones are get bigger, and the smaller ones are get bigger, and the smaller ones are continuing to close. continuing to close. continuing to close. You can find obvious examples. It's not You can find obvious examples. It's not You can find obvious examples. It's not like like like as clear as as clear as as clear as It's not binary, but it's directionally It's not binary, but it's directionally It's not binary, but it's directionally supported as well. And so, I just have a supported as well. And so, I just have a supported as well. And so, I just have a little bit more skepticism little bit more skepticism little bit more skepticism when this claim is then applied to like when this claim is then applied to like when this claim is then applied to like specific expressions. My belief specific expressions. My belief specific expressions. My belief and I'm happy to be happy to be wrong and I'm happy to be happy to be wrong and I'm happy to be happy to be wrong and proven wrong. It's kind of the whole and proven wrong. It's kind of the whole and proven wrong. It's kind of the whole point of this episode is that we're just point of this episode is that we're just point of this episode is that we're just trying to get to like what's actually trying to get to like what's actually trying to get to like what's actually true. But my belief more is that true. But my belief more is that true. But my belief more is that all young people are looking for what's all young people are looking for what's all young people are looking for what's genuine. And as you get older, like one genuine. And as you get older, like one genuine. And as you get older, like one thing I resisted as a kid was like I thing I resisted as a kid was like I thing I resisted as a kid was like I never liked it when adults just did kind never liked it when adults just did kind never liked it when adults just did kind of like small talk. Mhm. I always felt of like small talk. Mhm. I always felt of like small talk. Mhm. I always felt like it was so fake. And I remember like it was so fake. And I remember like it was so fake. And I remember being as a being a teenager being like, being as a being a teenager being like, being as a being a teenager being like, "I'm always going to speak directly."

"I'm always going to speak directly." "I'm always going to speak directly." And look, I'm in my mid-30s now, and I And look, I'm in my mid-30s now, and I And look, I'm in my mid-30s now, and I speak directly a lot of the time. speak directly a lot of the time. speak directly a lot of the time. Sometimes you just it's not worth it. Sometimes you just it's not worth it. Sometimes you just it's not worth it. You're just like, "For this person, I'm You're just like, "For this person, I'm You're just like, "For this person, I'm just going to do the whole like just going to do the whole like just going to do the whole like Is that not Is that me not being Is that not Is that me not being Is that not Is that me not being genuine? I don't know, man. Like I just genuine? I don't know, man. Like I just genuine? I don't know, man. Like I just There's only so much time in the day. There's only so much time in the day. There's only so much time in the day. >> And so, like you get older, and And you >> And so, like you get older, and And you >> And so, like you get older, and And you just kind of fall into certain rhythms just kind of fall into certain rhythms just kind of fall into certain rhythms and patterns, and you choose your and patterns, and you choose your and patterns, and you choose your battles per se. And I think if you're battles per se. And I think if you're battles per se. And I think if you're younger you can look at certain things younger you can look at certain things younger you can look at certain things because those individually eventually because those individually eventually because those individually eventually translate to institutionally and you and translate to institutionally and you and translate to institutionally and you and and and it's good. Every young and and it's good. Every young and and it's good. Every young generation is like let's get back to generation is like let's get back to generation is like let's get back to what really matters and every older what really matters and every older what really matters and every older generation is like we're just trying to generation is like we're just trying to generation is like we're just trying to hold this together and sometimes holding hold this together and sometimes holding hold this together and sometimes holding it together means creating certain it together means creating certain it together means creating certain structures and scaffolding that we get structures and scaffolding that we get structures and scaffolding that we get it it's not perfect it's not ideal but it it's not perfect it's not ideal but it it's not perfect it's not ideal but it serves a greater purpose. Like I it serves a greater purpose. Like I it serves a greater purpose. Like I think that's just the cycle. Yeah and think that's just the cycle. Yeah and think that's just the cycle. Yeah and you talked about corroboration earlier you talked about corroboration earlier you talked about corroboration earlier and you can corroborate this trend with and you can corroborate this trend with and you can corroborate this trend with another data point that we know is another data point that we know is another data point that we know is verifiably true that institutional trust verifiably true that institutional trust verifiably true that institutional trust is lower than it's ever been. People is lower than it's ever been. People is lower than it's ever been. People just just just the trust the trust the trust >> Guess what that was true for us. Yes so >> Guess what that was true for us. Yes so >> Guess what that was true for us. Yes so Gen Z is just even more skeptical.

Gen Z is just even more skeptical. Gen Z is just even more skeptical. >> Yes and so they just want to be told the >> Yes and so they just want to be told the >> Yes and so they just want to be told the truth. They want to know what's true. truth. They want to know what's true. truth. They want to know what's true. >> They just want >> They just want >> They just want And so I I guess that just highlights it And so I I guess that just highlights it And so I I guess that just highlights it accentuates the point in that like accentuates the point in that like accentuates the point in that like whatever you say whatever you produce whatever you say whatever you produce whatever you say whatever you produce whatever um whatever um whatever um you know stylistic or artistic choices you know stylistic or artistic choices you know stylistic or artistic choices you make as long as they reflect like an you make as long as they reflect like an you make as long as they reflect like an earnest effort to tell the truth I think earnest effort to tell the truth I think earnest effort to tell the truth I think that's what's going to resonate. Um you that's what's going to resonate. Um you that's what's going to resonate. Um you know I find myself es- especially in know I find myself es- especially in know I find myself es- especially in this this AI boom and the fake news era this this AI boom and the fake news era this this AI boom and the fake news era where it's really it's I think it's where it's really it's I think it's where it's really it's I think it's harder than ever now online. No it is harder than ever now online. No it is harder than ever now online. No it is harder than ever now to discern what harder than ever now to discern what harder than ever now to discern what media is true online. The the the AI media is true online. The the the AI media is true online. The the the AI tools for creating videos for the deep tools for creating videos for the deep tools for creating videos for the deep fake technology it's better than ever fake technology it's better than ever fake technology it's better than ever and I found myself as a you know as an and I found myself as a you know as an and I found myself as a you know as an elder millennial actually consuming less elder millennial actually consuming less elder millennial actually consuming less media online because it's harder for me media online because it's harder for me media online because it's harder for me to know what is true. I do not want to to know what is true. I do not want to to know what is true. I do not want to be fooled by a fake video. I just that's be fooled by a fake video. I just that's be fooled by a fake video. I just that's like that's like my greatest fear right like that's like my greatest fear right like that's like my greatest fear right now. It's like sharing a video and then now. It's like sharing a video and then now. It's like sharing a video and then being told like that's AI. And so I feel being told like that's AI. And so I feel being told like that's AI. And so I feel that too. It's like that too. It's like that too. It's like >> It hasn't happened to you yet. Uh no no >> It hasn't happened to you yet. Uh no no >> It hasn't happened to you yet. Uh no no I I have a good like AI detector. It's I I have a good like AI detector. It's I I have a good like AI detector. It's not perfect and I know that. Um I'm not perfect and I know that. Um I'm not perfect and I know that. Um I'm usually the one who's telling others usually the one who's telling others usually the one who's telling others that like no that's not real.

that like no that's not real. that like no that's not real. >> said to me like the kangaroo is not >> said to me like the kangaroo is not >> said to me like the kangaroo is not getting on the plane. Right right. And I getting on the plane. Right right. And I getting on the plane. Right right. And I said you know when you say it out loud said you know when you say it out loud said you know when you say it out loud So, it's just in the cultural moment we So, it's just in the cultural moment we So, it's just in the cultural moment we we just we want to know what's true and we just we want to know what's true and we just we want to know what's true and so we just need to make earnest efforts so we just need to make earnest efforts so we just need to make earnest efforts to tell the truth with the mediums that to tell the truth with the mediums that to tell the truth with the mediums that we choose to tell the story that we're we choose to tell the story that we're we choose to tell the story that we're telling. I think the point you're making telling. I think the point you're making telling. I think the point you're making is the right one, which is is the right one, which is is the right one, which is everyone is going to be a little bit everyone is going to be a little bit everyone is going to be a little bit different. different. different. And when you are true as a church to And when you are true as a church to And when you are true as a church to your DNA, your DNA, your DNA, people see that. people see that. people see that. They recognize it as genuine. They recognize it as genuine. They recognize it as genuine. >> Yeah. And that builds trust. It's not >> Yeah. And that builds trust. It's not >> Yeah. And that builds trust. It's not about the specific expression. about the specific expression. about the specific expression. It's about is that expression actually a It's about is that expression actually a It's about is that expression actually a byproduct of your DNA as a leadership byproduct of your DNA as a leadership byproduct of your DNA as a leadership team, as a pastor, as a church, as a team, as a pastor, as a church, as a team, as a pastor, as a church, as a congregation as a whole. We always talk congregation as a whole. We always talk congregation as a whole. We always talk about the principle of congruency. You about the principle of congruency. You about the principle of congruency. You want your online expression to be want your online expression to be want your online expression to be genuine to your in-person experience. genuine to your in-person experience. genuine to your in-person experience. Why? Because if it's not, that's one of Why? Because if it's not, that's one of Why? Because if it's not, that's one of the first ways that you can erode trust the first ways that you can erode trust the first ways that you can erode trust when someone does eventually visit in when someone does eventually visit in when someone does eventually visit in person. All the heavy lifting's been person. All the heavy lifting's been person. All the heavy lifting's been done and then they experience something done and then they experience something done and then they experience something that feels different than what you that feels different than what you that feels different than what you presented online. How many times has presented online. How many times has presented online. How many times has that happened when you visited a that happened when you visited a that happened when you visited a restaurant? Their online presence is restaurant? Their online presence is restaurant? Their online presence is like, "This is how we are." You get in like, "This is how we are." You get in like, "This is how we are." You get in person you're like, "All right."

person you're like, "All right." person you're like, "All right." Imagine that, but for someone visiting Imagine that, but for someone visiting Imagine that, but for someone visiting your church. The consequences of that your church. The consequences of that your church. The consequences of that are so much greater. Yeah. So, are so much greater. Yeah. So, are so much greater. Yeah. So, disentangle the specific expression from disentangle the specific expression from disentangle the specific expression from I think the objective. Yeah, for sure. I think the objective. Yeah, for sure. I think the objective. Yeah, for sure. And move on to the fifth claim. Let's And move on to the fifth claim. Let's And move on to the fifth claim. Let's introduce a new color. This is an orange introduce a new color. This is an orange introduce a new color. This is an orange flag. flag. flag. >> Oh. And we've got low moderate >> Oh. And we've got low moderate >> Oh. And we've got low moderate confidence. Low mod con. Low mod con. In confidence. Low mod con. Low mod con. In confidence. Low mod con. Low mod con. In this claim, which is that nearly half of this claim, which is that nearly half of this claim, which is that nearly half of Gen Z would attend church if they were Gen Z would attend church if they were Gen Z would attend church if they were only invited. only invited. only invited. Commonly said from stage, nearly 50% of Commonly said from stage, nearly 50% of Commonly said from stage, nearly 50% of Gen Z would attend church if someone Gen Z would attend church if someone Gen Z would attend church if someone invited them. Low mod con invited them. Low mod con invited them. Low mod con cuz the source data is accessible. It cuz the source data is accessible. It cuz the source data is accessible. It says something different than what gets says something different than what gets says something different than what gets quoted. So, this is commonly attributed quoted. So, this is commonly attributed quoted. So, this is commonly attributed to One Hope Global Youth Culture to One Hope Global Youth Culture to One Hope Global Youth Culture Research. The global report says 41% of Research. The global report says 41% of Research. The global report says 41% of teens who don't already attend would teens who don't already attend would teens who don't already attend would come if invited. come if invited. come if invited. There's another US report specifically There's another US report specifically There's another US report specifically that says 67% of unchurched teens would that says 67% of unchurched teens would that says 67% of unchurched teens would be interested or considered attending. be interested or considered attending. be interested or considered attending. Now, you might hear that and go, "Okay, Now, you might hear that and go, "Okay, Now, you might hear that and go, "Okay, so are you so are you so are you quarreling with the fact that it said quarreling with the fact that it said quarreling with the fact that it said 50% from stage, but the actual answer is 50% from stage, but the actual answer is 50% from stage, but the actual answer is 41 in one study and 67 in another? Like 41 in one study and 67 in another? Like 41 in one study and 67 in another? Like why do you have a podcast?

Sure, those are like a little bit off, Sure, those are like a little bit off, but they're roughly half of each. One's but they're roughly half of each. One's but they're roughly half of each. One's even greater than half. even greater than half. even greater than half. But But But specifically is that it's not Gen Z, specifically is that it's not Gen Z, specifically is that it's not Gen Z, it's teens. it's teens. it's teens. And what we see is that this has always And what we see is that this has always And what we see is that this has always been true of teens with each generation. been true of teens with each generation. been true of teens with each generation. And that's important because Gen Z is And that's important because Gen Z is And that's important because Gen Z is not really teens anymore. No, the upper not really teens anymore. No, the upper not really teens anymore. No, the upper the upper end of the spectrum is 20. I I the upper end of the spectrum is 20. I I the upper end of the spectrum is 20. I I remember when people did this with our remember when people did this with our remember when people did this with our generation. It was always like, "How to generation. It was always like, "How to generation. It was always like, "How to reach millennials?" I'm like, "What do reach millennials?" I'm like, "What do reach millennials?" I'm like, "What do you mean how to reach millennials? I you mean how to reach millennials? I you mean how to reach millennials? I have to pay my mortgage. I have a have to pay my mortgage. I have a have to pay my mortgage. I have a mortgage. Like it's not me anymore. You mortgage. Like it's not me anymore. You mortgage. Like it's not me anymore. You need to move on." And Gen Z, they're need to move on." And Gen Z, they're need to move on." And Gen Z, they're they're you know, these generations, they're you know, these generations, they're you know, these generations, they move at this the same pace. And they move at this the same pace. And they move at this the same pace. And they're 20 years old. There are there they're 20 years old. There are there they're 20 years old. There are there are Gen Z folks, plenty of them, with are Gen Z folks, plenty of them, with are Gen Z folks, plenty of them, with mortgages. They they all vote. So like mortgages. They they all vote. So like mortgages. They they all vote. So like >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. And there is such a huge drop-off we see And there is such a huge drop-off we see And there is such a huge drop-off we see with young adults from teens. So what with young adults from teens. So what with young adults from teens. So what this is saying and what has always been this is saying and what has always been this is saying and what has always been true is that like when true is that like when true is that like when kids are teens, they're just open to kids are teens, they're just open to kids are teens, they're just open to doing stuff. doing stuff. doing stuff. And then like when they hit young And then like when they hit young And then like when they hit young adults, especially because of that adults, especially because of that adults, especially because of that institutional trust, the young adult institutional trust, the young adult institutional trust, the young adult awakening that happens with every awakening that happens with every awakening that happens with every generation, which is like, you know, generation, which is like, you know, generation, which is like, you know, fight the power in its own expression fight the power in its own expression fight the power in its own expression for that generation, of course for that generation, of course for that generation, of course translates to church. The institutional translates to church. The institutional translates to church. The institutional distrust applies to all institutions, distrust applies to all institutions, distrust applies to all institutions, politics, government, church, medicine, politics, government, church, medicine, politics, government, church, medicine, whatever it might be. And so the whatever it might be. And so the whatever it might be. And so the important thing here is about it's not important thing here is about it's not important thing here is about it's not this it's not this generational thing this it's not this generational thing this it's not this generational thing about they're uniquely open to faith.

about they're uniquely open to faith. about they're uniquely open to faith. No, no. All teenagers are open to No, no. All teenagers are open to No, no. All teenagers are open to invitations. invitations. invitations. >> And you should invite them to church. >> And you should invite them to church. >> And you should invite them to church. >> Absolutely. But let's just not say like >> Absolutely. But let's just not say like >> Absolutely. But let's just not say like it's Gen Z and it's their whole it's Gen Z and it's their whole it's Gen Z and it's their whole generation and that that's going to be generation and that that's going to be generation and that that's going to be true when they're 25. It's going to be true when they're 25. It's going to be true when they're 25. It's going to be true when they're 35. He's like, "No, true when they're 35. He's like, "No, true when they're 35. He's like, "No, no, no. When teens are teens, this is no, no. When teens are teens, this is no, no. When teens are teens, this is why student ministry is so so why student ministry is so so why student ministry is so so important." important." important." >> we've got a few red flags. Now, we're >> we've got a few red flags. Now, we're >> we've got a few red flags. Now, we're moving into the red flags. Low moving into the red flags. Low moving into the red flags. Low confidence in these uh stats and confidence in these uh stats and confidence in these uh stats and narratives. They just don't hold up, and narratives. They just don't hold up, and narratives. They just don't hold up, and then we'll hit some big takeaways. Yes. then we'll hit some big takeaways. Yes. then we'll hit some big takeaways. Yes. So, uh record Bible sales prove Gen Z is So, uh record Bible sales prove Gen Z is So, uh record Bible sales prove Gen Z is coming back to faith. So, the sales data coming back to faith. So, the sales data coming back to faith. So, the sales data is real. 19 million Bibles sold in 2025 is real. 19 million Bibles sold in 2025 is real. 19 million Bibles sold in 2025 in the US. That's a 21-year high, double in the US. That's a 21-year high, double in the US. That's a 21-year high, double of 2019. That's amazing. In the UK, of 2019. That's amazing. In the UK, of 2019. That's amazing. In the UK, Bible sales are up 134% since 2019. The Bible sales are up 134% since 2019. The Bible sales are up 134% since 2019. The problem is that we just don't have any problem is that we just don't have any problem is that we just don't have any way of saying that this is Gen Z that's way of saying that this is Gen Z that's way of saying that this is Gen Z that's driving this. Uh the American data from driving this. Uh the American data from driving this. Uh the American data from Circana does not report buyer age. Same Circana does not report buyer age. Same Circana does not report buyer age. Same with Nielsen. Uh the UK uh expert that with Nielsen. Uh the UK uh expert that with Nielsen. Uh the UK uh expert that gets quoted in this is Sam Richardson, gets quoted in this is Sam Richardson, gets quoted in this is Sam Richardson, the CEO of SPCK Group, which is a the CEO of SPCK Group, which is a the CEO of SPCK Group, which is a company that sells Bibles.

company that sells Bibles. company that sells Bibles. >> Oh, he's from Big Bible. >> Oh, he's from Big Bible. >> Oh, he's from Big Bible. >> Big Bible. Yeah. And what he's inferring >> Big Bible. Yeah. And what he's inferring >> Big Bible. Yeah. And what he's inferring is that Gen Z must be a driving is that Gen Z must be a driving is that Gen Z must be a driving cohort that's explaining these sales. cohort that's explaining these sales. cohort that's explaining these sales. >> of the quiet revival. Which we already >> of the quiet revival. Which we already >> of the quiet revival. Which we already talked about, which was like talked about, which was like talked about, which was like very, very scrutinized, and they said very, very scrutinized, and they said very, very scrutinized, and they said they're going to rerun the numbers. So, they're going to rerun the numbers. So, they're going to rerun the numbers. So, this is like that like telephone game. this is like that like telephone game. this is like that like telephone game. Telephone. Hey, hey, in the UK, Telephone. Hey, hey, in the UK, Telephone. Hey, hey, in the UK, everyone's going back to church. Well, everyone's going back to church. Well, everyone's going back to church. Well, also in the UK, Bible sales are up. also in the UK, Bible sales are up. also in the UK, Bible sales are up. Gen Z is buying all the Bibles. Gen Z is buying all the Bibles. Gen Z is buying all the Bibles. >> Yes. Oh, wait a minute. That first data >> Yes. Oh, wait a minute. That first data >> Yes. Oh, wait a minute. That first data point is like probably not true. Oh. point is like probably not true. Oh. point is like probably not true. Oh. >> Yeah. Well, I already said it, so and >> Yeah. Well, I already said it, so and >> Yeah. Well, I already said it, so and that's how it is. I don't even think that's how it is. I don't even think that's how it is. I don't even think these people are like these people are like these people are like I I think these people are all trying to I I think these people are all trying to I I think these people are all trying to do their best. Like, do their best. Like, do their best. Like, >> not nefarious, yeah. Like, what are the >> not nefarious, yeah. Like, what are the >> not nefarious, yeah. Like, what are the chances we're getting something wrong in chances we're getting something wrong in chances we're getting something wrong in this episode, right? Pretty high. No. this episode, right? Pretty high. No. this episode, right? Pretty high. No. Well, Well, Well, >> HIGH CON. >> HIGH CON. >> HIGH CON. >> NO. >> NO. >> NO. NO. LOW MOD CON, HOPEFULLY. NO. LOW MOD CON, HOPEFULLY. NO. LOW MOD CON, HOPEFULLY. SO, uh here's another low con claim. SO, uh here's another low con claim. SO, uh here's another low con claim. Two-thirds of Gen Z are spiritually Two-thirds of Gen Z are spiritually Two-thirds of Gen Z are spiritually open. Again, this refers to teens, open. Again, this refers to teens, open. Again, this refers to teens, not a generation. Barna's own data here not a generation. Barna's own data here not a generation. Barna's own data here that shows it is real. Teens are very that shows it is real. Teens are very that shows it is real. Teens are very open spiritually. Show a significant open spiritually. Show a significant open spiritually. Show a significant drop in openness once teens become young drop in openness once teens become young drop in openness once teens become young adults. That's an important stat and adults. That's an important stat and adults. That's an important stat and that's an important stat for your youth that's an important stat for your youth that's an important stat for your youth ministry to know, right? That that ministry to know, right? That that ministry to know, right? That that empowers, that gives fuel to the work empowers, that gives fuel to the work empowers, that gives fuel to the work you're doing with teenagers in your you're doing with teenagers in your you're doing with teenagers in your church. And it church. And it church. And it >> And young adults.

>> And young adults. >> And young adults. >> Yes, and it also informs how you relate >> Yes, and it also informs how you relate >> Yes, and it also informs how you relate to the young adults. to the young adults. to the young adults. >> Because usually they're lumped together. >> Because usually they're lumped together. >> Because usually they're lumped together. >> Yes. Right? Like oh, we treat Yeah, >> Yes. Right? Like oh, we treat Yeah, >> Yes. Right? Like oh, we treat Yeah, yeah, an 18-year-old or a 16-year-old, yeah, an 18-year-old or a 16-year-old, yeah, an 18-year-old or a 16-year-old, they're treated pretty much the same as they're treated pretty much the same as they're treated pretty much the same as a 24-year-old, a 22-year-old. Like it's a 24-year-old, a 22-year-old. Like it's a 24-year-old, a 22-year-old. Like it's all the same. It's like No, actually all the same. It's like No, actually all the same. It's like No, actually what's really interesting is there's an what's really interesting is there's an what's really interesting is there's an incredibly strong difference in posture incredibly strong difference in posture incredibly strong difference in posture despite the age gap being small. despite the age gap being small. despite the age gap being small. >> Yeah. And that's what happens, right? >> Yeah. And that's what happens, right? >> Yeah. And that's what happens, right? Because Because Because the the years that are lived are so much the the years that are lived are so much the the years that are lived are so much shorter than someone in their 40s or shorter than someone in their 40s or shorter than someone in their 40s or 50s. 50s. 50s. A 6-year gap between 42 and 48, separate A 6-year gap between 42 and 48, separate A 6-year gap between 42 and 48, separate a giant life event in that individual, a giant life event in that individual, a giant life event in that individual, is unlikely to create a difference in is unlikely to create a difference in is unlikely to create a difference in posture generationally that you could posture generationally that you could posture generationally that you could pinpoint. pinpoint. pinpoint. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But for a same 6-year gap from 18 to 24, But for a same 6-year gap from 18 to 24, But for a same 6-year gap from 18 to 24, huge difference. huge difference. huge difference. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's really useful >> Yeah. Yeah. That's really useful >> Yeah. Yeah. That's really useful information. That is interesting and information. That is interesting and information. That is interesting and gives us gives us gives us application points. application points. application points. Gen Z is leaving because it's too Gen Z is leaving because it's too Gen Z is leaving because it's too political. Another low-confidence claim. political. Another low-confidence claim. political. Another low-confidence claim. Interesting, right? This is actually Interesting, right? This is actually Interesting, right? This is actually probably the most oversimplified probably the most oversimplified probably the most oversimplified narrative in the church world right now. narrative in the church world right now. narrative in the church world right now. Here's the big thing. In 2023, 67% of Here's the big thing. In 2023, 67% of Here's the big thing. In 2023, 67% of religiously unaffiliated Americans religiously unaffiliated Americans religiously unaffiliated Americans reported they no longer identify with reported they no longer identify with reported they no longer identify with their childhood religion because their childhood religion because their childhood religion because they stopped believing.

That's it. That's it. >> That's that. The women leaving >> That's that. The women leaving >> That's that. The women leaving are are are leaving due to some politics, though. leaving due to some politics, though. leaving due to some politics, though. 65% of Gen Z women say churches don't 65% of Gen Z women say churches don't 65% of Gen Z women say churches don't treat men or women men and women treat men or women men and women treat men or women men and women equally. equally. equally. 60% of young people who left cited 60% of young people who left cited 60% of young people who left cited negative treatment of gay and lesbian negative treatment of gay and lesbian negative treatment of gay and lesbian people. people. people. Only 20% cited church becoming too Only 20% cited church becoming too Only 20% cited church becoming too focused on politics. So, okay, let's try focused on politics. So, okay, let's try focused on politics. So, okay, let's try to make this make sense of all that. to make this make sense of all that. to make this make sense of all that. Back to the original conversation of men Back to the original conversation of men Back to the original conversation of men are not surging in, women are leaving. are not surging in, women are leaving. are not surging in, women are leaving. Okay, why are women leaving? We didn't Okay, why are women leaving? We didn't Okay, why are women leaving? We didn't touch on that because we were going to touch on that because we were going to touch on that because we were going to get to it later. Here we have 65% of Gen get to it later. Here we have 65% of Gen get to it later. Here we have 65% of Gen Z women saying churches don't treat men Z women saying churches don't treat men Z women saying churches don't treat men and women equally. Okay, that perhaps and women equally. Okay, that perhaps and women equally. Okay, that perhaps would be a reason why women are leaving. would be a reason why women are leaving. would be a reason why women are leaving. Men Men Men are staying are staying are staying and 47% of male churchgoers agreed This is crazy. We're just We're just This is crazy. We're just We're just reading it. Just reading the data. This reading it. Just reading the data. This reading it. Just reading the data. This is PRRI, this is American. 47% of male is PRRI, this is American. 47% of male is PRRI, this is American. 47% of male churchgoers agree immigrants are {quote} churchgoers agree immigrants are {quote} churchgoers agree immigrants are {quote} invading our country and replacing our invading our country and replacing our invading our country and replacing our cultural and ethnic background.

cultural and ethnic background. cultural and ethnic background. The story then is not The story then is not The story then is not Gen Z wants a less political church Gen Z wants a less political church Gen Z wants a less political church or wants a more political church in a or wants a more political church in a or wants a more political church in a certain way. It's that Gen Z is certain way. It's that Gen Z is certain way. It's that Gen Z is splitting along gender lines. That's the splitting along gender lines. That's the splitting along gender lines. That's the interesting part. Maybe more Gen Z men interesting part. Maybe more Gen Z men interesting part. Maybe more Gen Z men are open to staying because are open to staying because are open to staying because like church is a little bit more like church is a little bit more like church is a little bit more politically right, but that's also on politically right, but that's also on politically right, but that's also on the other side of the spectrum causing the other side of the spectrum causing the other side of the spectrum causing more Gen Z women to leave. So, that's more Gen Z women to leave. So, that's more Gen Z women to leave. So, that's not about a church's posture not about a church's posture not about a church's posture because a singular posture could create because a singular posture could create because a singular posture could create two different effects. two different effects. two different effects. That's based on a generation that is That's based on a generation that is That's based on a generation that is split and that outside of the church has split and that outside of the church has split and that outside of the church has been well established and is been well established and is been well established and is directionally true that women are directionally true that women are directionally true that women are leaning way more left and men are leaning way more left and men are leaning way more left and men are leaning way more right than previous leaning way more right than previous leaning way more right than previous generations did. And so, if any generations did. And so, if any generations did. And so, if any institution makes any claim that in any institution makes any claim that in any institution makes any claim that in any way could be interpreted along one of way could be interpreted along one of way could be interpreted along one of those lines, it would create that split. those lines, it would create that split. those lines, it would create that split. >> right. So, that's not like the church is >> right. So, that's not like the church is >> right. So, that's not like the church is too political per se. too political per se. too political per se. It's not top down from the church, it's It's not top down from the church, it's It's not top down from the church, it's bottom up from the generation.

bottom up from the generation. bottom up from the generation. Final low con claim, the Asbury Revival Final low con claim, the Asbury Revival Final low con claim, the Asbury Revival proves Gen Z is returning. Again, we're proves Gen Z is returning. Again, we're proves Gen Z is returning. Again, we're not trying to be downers. This was a not trying to be downers. This was a not trying to be downers. This was a real awesome event dating back to real awesome event dating back to real awesome event dating back to February of 2023 happening in Kentucky. February of 2023 happening in Kentucky. February of 2023 happening in Kentucky. It was localized. It was campus It was localized. It was campus It was localized. It was campus specific. specific. specific. it was real. But what we don't see is it was real. But what we don't see is it was real. But what we don't see is that that is representated that that is representated that that is representated in a survey that's like, "Hey, a broad in a survey that's like, "Hey, a broad in a survey that's like, "Hey, a broad generational trend." It was more of this generational trend." It was more of this generational trend." It was more of this localized thing. localized thing. localized thing. Big takeaways overall. Big takeaways overall. Big takeaways overall. Least churched generation in American Least churched generation in American Least churched generation in American history. That goes to Gen Z. And most history. That goes to Gen Z. And most history. That goes to Gen Z. And most intensely engaged when they do attend. intensely engaged when they do attend. intensely engaged when they do attend. This casual middle has evaporated. Both This casual middle has evaporated. Both This casual middle has evaporated. Both things are true simultaneously. Both things are true simultaneously. Both things are true simultaneously. Both items are actionable and useful when we items are actionable and useful when we items are actionable and useful when we know them. know them. know them. Being on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok Being on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok Being on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok are the big three of social. Probably are the big three of social. Probably are the big three of social. Probably the most verified claim in the entire the most verified claim in the entire the most verified claim in the entire episode. Probably because it's a lot episode. Probably because it's a lot episode. Probably because it's a lot easier to get data on that than anything easier to get data on that than anything easier to get data on that than anything else. The gender gap has narrowed else. The gender gap has narrowed else. The gender gap has narrowed dramatically. Young women though are dramatically. Young women though are dramatically. Young women though are disengaging faster than young men. It's disengaging faster than young men. It's disengaging faster than young men. It's not a surge of young men per se. And the not a surge of young men per se. And the not a surge of young men per se. And the number one people, number one reason number one people, number one reason number one people, number one reason people leave religion, people leave religion, people leave religion, it's not politics. It's not style.

it's not politics. It's not style. it's not politics. It's not style. It is that they stopped believing. It is that they stopped believing. It is that they stopped believing. And we're going to get into this more And we're going to get into this more And we're going to get into this more in next week's episode. in next week's episode. in next week's episode. Because that is not a headline that you Because that is not a headline that you Because that is not a headline that you see often cited. It is not especially see often cited. It is not especially see often cited. It is not especially glamorous. And it maybe doesn't feel glamorous. And it maybe doesn't feel glamorous. And it maybe doesn't feel actionable. actionable. actionable. I don't think that's true, but I I don't think that's true, but I I don't think that's true, but I understand why on the surface it gets understand why on the surface it gets understand why on the surface it gets interpreted like that. So we're going to interpreted like that. So we're going to interpreted like that. So we're going to tackle that more tackle that more tackle that more in next week's episode that is more in next week's episode that is more in next week's episode that is more broad and not specifically related to broad and not specifically related to broad and not specifically related to Gen Z. But we will be talking about Gen Z. But we will be talking about Gen Z. But we will be talking about young people. young people. young people. And again, we will point you to all of And again, we will point you to all of And again, we will point you to all of the citations. And if there's anything the citations. And if there's anything the citations. And if there's anything that we got wrong on this episode, feel that we got wrong on this episode, feel that we got wrong on this episode, feel free to call us out on it. And we will free to call us out on it. And we will free to call us out on it. And we will do our best to rectify that in the do our best to rectify that in the do our best to rectify that in the comments and or the description and or comments and or the description and or comments and or the description and or the transcripts and or the notes to this the transcripts and or the notes to this the transcripts and or the notes to this pod. And thank you for your time, pod. And thank you for your time, pod. And thank you for your time, attention, and trust. We'll talk to you attention, and trust. We'll talk to you attention, and trust. We'll talk to you next week. Tristan and I had to change next week. Tristan and I had to change next week. Tristan and I had to change hotels one night. That sounds familiar, hotels one night. That sounds familiar, hotels one night. That sounds familiar, yeah. Because it wouldn't the outlets yeah. Because it wouldn't the outlets yeah. Because it wouldn't the outlets wouldn't support any of our drone wouldn't support any of our drone wouldn't support any of our drone charging Couldn't plug anything in. Oh, charging Couldn't plug anything in. Oh, charging Couldn't plug anything in. Oh, man. It's like blasting man. It's like blasting man. It's like blasting Yeah. Man. Yeah. Man. Yeah. Man. Back in the day. Yeah. We're like Back in the day. Yeah. We're like Back in the day. Yeah. We're like calling you, like, "Can we change calling you, like, "Can we change calling you, like, "Can we change hotels? Can you help us? $12 more. Yes.

Different times. Different times. Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. And you're like, "Oh, we have to drive And you're like, "Oh, we have to drive And you're like, "Oh, we have to drive through a hurricane. I don't know how I through a hurricane. I don't know how I through a hurricane. I don't know how I feel about this. Will, feel about this. Will, feel about this. Will, we need 5,000 clips, SO we need 5,000 clips, SO we need 5,000 clips, SO YOU JUST KEEP ON DIGGING."