The Online Church Myth Debunked with Ryan Burge

does online Church negatively impact does online Church negatively impact in-person attendance that's the question in-person attendance that's the question in-person attendance that's the question we've all been asking for about 5 years we've all been asking for about 5 years we've all been asking for about 5 years now and finally we've got some great now and finally we've got some great now and finally we've got some great data to help us get to the bottom of it data to help us get to the bottom of it data to help us get to the bottom of it we're joined Again by Ryan Burge from we're joined Again by Ryan Burge from we're joined Again by Ryan Burge from graphs about religion to help us graphs about religion to help us graphs about religion to help us untangle it all let's dive untangle it all let's dive untangle it all let's dive in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro Church tools show we're here to help you Church tools show we're here to help you Church tools show we're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years I'm communication shift in 500 years I'm communication shift in 500 years I'm Brady Sherer your host I'm joined as Brady Sherer your host I'm joined as Brady Sherer your host I'm joined as always by my co-host it's Alexander always by my co-host it's Alexander always by my co-host it's Alexander Mills hello hello and we're also joined Mills hello hello and we're also joined Mills hello hello and we're also joined by the four of nature behind graphs by the four of nature behind graphs by the four of nature behind graphs about religion back again it's Ryan bur about religion back again it's Ryan bur about religion back again it's Ryan bur Ryan welcome back to the show I am a Ryan welcome back to the show I am a Ryan welcome back to the show I am a force of nature that is exactly what I force of nature that is exactly what I force of nature that is exactly what I am is accurate we have uh been keeping am is accurate we have uh been keeping am is accurate we have uh been keeping track with your substack I am a track with your substack I am a track with your substack I am a subscriber myself graphs about religion subscriber myself graphs about religion subscriber myself graphs about religion uh cannot speak highly enough about it uh cannot speak highly enough about it uh cannot speak highly enough about it and I have basically uh taken stock of and I have basically uh taken stock of and I have basically uh taken stock of some of the most standout articles for some of the most standout articles for some of the most standout articles for me that I think our audience would me that I think our audience would me that I think our audience would benefit from and appreciate and the benefit from and appreciate and the benefit from and appreciate and the biggest one that stood out to me over biggest one that stood out to me over biggest one that stood out to me over the last couple of months since we had the last couple of months since we had the last couple of months since we had you on the show was titled who is you on the show was titled who is you on the show was titled who is attending online church where you attending online church where you attending online church where you basically uh summarized hey Pew asked basically uh summarized hey Pew asked basically uh summarized hey Pew asked 11,000 plus people in November of 2022 11,000 plus people in November of 2022 11,000 plus people in November of 2022 which was an important date uh because which was an important date uh because which was an important date uh because it was after uh near the tail end of it was after uh near the tail end of it was after uh near the tail end of covid asked all those people a variety covid asked all those people a variety covid asked all those people a variety of questions about their worship of questions about their worship of questions about their worship attendance both in person and virtual attendance both in person and virtual attendance both in person and virtual and I was very surprised by some of uh and I was very surprised by some of uh and I was very surprised by some of uh the takeaways because what pastors want the takeaways because what pastors want the takeaways because what pastors want to know is this are there a bunch of to know is this are there a bunch of to know is this are there a bunch of people that are only watching online people that are only watching online people that are only watching online church and they're not coming in person church and they're not coming in person church and they're not coming in person yes or no yes or no yes or no no that that's actually probably the

no that that's actually probably the no that that's actually probably the biggest the biggest takeaway is like biggest the biggest takeaway is like biggest the biggest takeaway is like there's like I hear when I go do Church there's like I hear when I go do Church there's like I hear when I go do Church things you know like the people will ask things you know like the people will ask things you know like the people will ask me that's like a one of the like top me that's like a one of the like top me that's like a one of the like top five questions is what do we do about five questions is what do we do about five questions is what do we do about online church and for a long time I just online church and for a long time I just online church and for a long time I just didn't have like a good empirical answer didn't have like a good empirical answer didn't have like a good empirical answer to that question because I know what to that question because I know what to that question because I know what happened is a lot of them weren't doing happened is a lot of them weren't doing happened is a lot of them weren't doing online church then Co happened and then online church then Co happened and then online church then Co happened and then they started doing online church and they started doing online church and they started doing online church and then they just kept doing online church then they just kept doing online church then they just kept doing online church because they saw people like logging because they saw people like logging because they saw people like logging into the website and like saw the clicks into the website and like saw the clicks into the website and like saw the clicks on YouTube and Facebook and they're like on YouTube and Facebook and they're like on YouTube and Facebook and they're like oh I guess we'll keep doing it cuz oh I guess we'll keep doing it cuz oh I guess we'll keep doing it cuz there's and then they're like what we there's and then they're like what we there's and then they're like what we how do we build community in this online how do we build community in this online how do we build community in this online congregation and I didn't really know congregation and I didn't really know congregation and I didn't really know what to tell them because I didn't know what to tell them because I didn't know what to tell them because I didn't know how big that number was but the share of how big that number was but the share of how big that number was but the share of Americans who are like honest to Americans who are like honest to Americans who are like honest to goodness like online only like they goodness like online only like they goodness like online only like they attend in person less than once a month attend in person less than once a month attend in person less than once a month but attend nearly every week online is but attend nearly every week online is but attend nearly every week online is about five five% of Americans which is about five five% of Americans which is about five five% of Americans which is not nothing of course you know 5% of not nothing of course you know 5% of not nothing of course you know 5% of people is a lot of people in some ways people is a lot of people in some ways people is a lot of people in some ways but it's not that many people in the but it's not that many people in the but it's not that many people in the grand scheme of all religion so and you grand scheme of all religion so and you grand scheme of all religion so and you also one thing I couldn't get into is also one thing I couldn't get into is also one thing I couldn't get into is like what do you watch I'm going to like what do you watch I'm going to like what do you watch I'm going to venture to guess a lot of them watch a venture to guess a lot of them watch a venture to guess a lot of them watch a handful of different you know religious handful of different you know religious handful of different you know religious like the big ones you know like Steve like the big ones you know like Steve like the big ones you know like Steve fdick at elevation or Saddleback or fdick at elevation or Saddleback or fdick at elevation or Saddleback or something like that how many people something like that how many people something like that how many people actually are committed to a small church actually are committed to a small church actually are committed to a small church with 75 people 100 people but only do it with 75 people 100 people but only do it with 75 people 100 people but only do it online I don't think the answer is that online I don't think the answer is that online I don't think the answer is that many generally speaking well that's many generally speaking well that's many generally speaking well that's something i' I'd be really interested Ed something i' I'd be really interested Ed something i' I'd be really interested Ed to talk about a little bit later as we to talk about a little bit later as we to talk about a little bit later as we talk about the types of folks who are

talk about the types of folks who are talk about the types of folks who are watching online church and what their watching online church and what their watching online church and what their participation in inperson churches we're participation in inperson churches we're participation in inperson churches we're going to get into that in a moment going to get into that in a moment going to get into that in a moment because I know my experience I am a because I know my experience I am a because I know my experience I am a pastor of a local church so I attend pastor of a local church so I attend pastor of a local church so I attend church uh weekly in person you're not church uh weekly in person you're not church uh weekly in person you're not part of the 5% no but if I was part of part of the 5% no but if I was part of part of the 5% no but if I was part of uh the folks who who completed this uh the folks who who completed this uh the folks who who completed this survey I would have also checked I survey I would have also checked I survey I would have also checked I attend online church because I consume a attend online church because I consume a attend online church because I consume a lot of online Church stuff throughout lot of online Church stuff throughout lot of online Church stuff throughout the week but it's not a church like mine the week but it's not a church like mine the week but it's not a church like mine so we can talk about that a moment but so we can talk about that a moment but so we can talk about that a moment but Ryan I just want you to say conclusively Ryan I just want you to say conclusively Ryan I just want you to say conclusively there has not or there has been a an there has not or there has been a an there has not or there has been a an exodus from the church postco when we exodus from the church postco when we exodus from the church postco when we introduce all these online services introduce all these online services introduce all these online services folks have left the church to sit in folks have left the church to sit in folks have left the church to sit in their pajamas and and eat popcorn and their pajamas and and eat popcorn and their pajamas and and eat popcorn and watch Church online they're contrary to watch Church online they're contrary to watch Church online they're contrary to our popular popular belief you're saying our popular popular belief you're saying our popular popular belief you're saying there has not been an exodus that looks there has not been an exodus that looks there has not been an exodus that looks quite like that that the problem is that quite like that that the problem is that quite like that that the problem is that that church attendance has been that church attendance has been that church attendance has been declining for decades anyway so if a declining for decades anyway so if a declining for decades anyway so if a decline between 2020 and 2023 by 2% is decline between 2020 and 2023 by 2% is decline between 2020 and 2023 by 2% is that because of covid or was it just that because of covid or was it just that because of covid or was it just going to happen anyway because that's going to happen anyway because that's going to happen anyway because that's what's been going on for 35 years now what's been going on for 35 years now what's been going on for 35 years now everything I've looked at when it comes everything I've looked at when it comes everything I've looked at when it comes to Co in the church tells me that it did to Co in the church tells me that it did to Co in the church tells me that it did not accelerate or decelerate the decline not accelerate or decelerate the decline not accelerate or decelerate the decline of religious attendance we basically are of religious attendance we basically are of religious attendance we basically are today where we would have been if covid today where we would have been if covid today where we would have been if covid would not have happened or within a very would not have happened or within a very would not have happened or within a very you know tight tolerance of what 2024 you know tight tolerance of what 2024 you know tight tolerance of what 2024 would have looked like based on 2020 would have looked like based on 2020 would have looked like based on 2020 numbers if you just shoot a straight numbers if you just shoot a straight numbers if you just shoot a straight line like I did I looked at the line like I did I looked at the line like I did I looked at the Episcopal church because they can do all Episcopal church because they can do all Episcopal church because they can do all kinds of of cool records like kinds of of cool records like kinds of of cool records like confirmations baptisms weddings things confirmations baptisms weddings things confirmations baptisms weddings things like that their 2023 numbers looked

like that their 2023 numbers looked like that their 2023 numbers looked exactly what I would have thought they exactly what I would have thought they exactly what I would have thought they would have looked like if you would have would have looked like if you would have would have looked like if you would have taken their prior 10year numbers without taken their prior 10year numbers without taken their prior 10year numbers without covid and projected it forward so I covid and projected it forward so I covid and projected it forward so I think we're kind of exactly where we are think we're kind of exactly where we are think we're kind of exactly where we are I don't think online church has killed I don't think online church has killed I don't think online church has killed in-person church but I also don't think in-person church but I also don't think in-person church but I also don't think it's really meeting the needs of lots of it's really meeting the needs of lots of it's really meeting the needs of lots of new people either that's actually new people either that's actually new people either that's actually probably one of the most interesting probably one of the most interesting probably one of the most interesting findings that needs to be thought about findings that needs to be thought about findings that needs to be thought about a lot more is the idea that people who a lot more is the idea that people who a lot more is the idea that people who are the most likely to watch Church are the most likely to watch Church are the most likely to watch Church online are actually the people who are online are actually the people who are online are actually the people who are going to church in person the most so going to church in person the most so going to church in person the most so weekly in-person church attenders are weekly in-person church attenders are weekly in-person church attenders are the most likely people to be watching the most likely people to be watching the most likely people to be watching church on I call them heavy users of church on I call them heavy users of church on I call them heavy users of religion you know like they're there religion you know like they're there religion you know like they're there they can't get enough of it basically so they can't get enough of it basically so they can't get enough of it basically so they go to their own church on Sunday or they go to their own church on Sunday or they go to their own church on Sunday or Saturday or Friday and then they might Saturday or Friday and then they might Saturday or Friday and then they might watch one of these services on a Tuesday watch one of these services on a Tuesday watch one of these services on a Tuesday or a Wednesday or a Thursday kind of or a Wednesday or a Thursday kind of or a Wednesday or a Thursday kind of supplement it so I think we've got a supplement it so I think we've got a supplement it so I think we've got a segment who are very very very segment who are very very very segment who are very very very religiously engaged and can't get enough religiously engaged and can't get enough religiously engaged and can't get enough of it and this is kind of feeding that of it and this is kind of feeding that of it and this is kind of feeding that neat and whether we we can talk about neat and whether we we can talk about neat and whether we we can talk about whether that's a good thing or not I whether that's a good thing or not I whether that's a good thing or not I don't really have a strong feeling don't really have a strong feeling don't really have a strong feeling either way but I think it skews the either way but I think it skews the either way but I think it skews the numbers in some ways because oh look all numbers in some ways because oh look all numbers in some ways because oh look all these people watching online when maybe these people watching online when maybe these people watching online when maybe 75% of them were already going to church 75% of them were already going to church 75% of them were already going to church every week in person anyway so you're every week in person anyway so you're every week in person anyway so you're not really adding to the fold you're not really adding to the fold you're not really adding to the fold you're just giving these people more of what just giving these people more of what just giving these people more of what they want you mentioned that 5% number they want you mentioned that 5% number they want you mentioned that 5% number 5% of people said yeah I'm watching 5% of people said yeah I'm watching 5% of people said yeah I'm watching Church online I'm not attending in Church online I'm not attending in Church online I'm not attending in person I am not not the person I am not not the person I am not not the numerologist is that a thing what is numerologist is that a thing what is numerologist is that a thing what is your title Ryan a statistician I suppose

your title Ryan a statistician I suppose your title Ryan a statistician I suppose there there you go that was what I was there there you go that was what I was there there you go that was what I was going for numerologist is like oh I saw going for numerologist is like oh I saw going for numerologist is like oh I saw 1111 on the clock what does that mean 1111 on the clock what does that mean 1111 on the clock what does that mean okay I am not the statistician uh so far okay I am not the statistician uh so far okay I am not the statistician uh so far away from the S I couldn't even think of away from the S I couldn't even think of away from the S I couldn't even think of the name the title um is 5% in a data the name the title um is 5% in a data the name the title um is 5% in a data set considered like oh that's notable or set considered like oh that's notable or set considered like oh that's notable or is that like yeah really small and is that like yeah really small and is that like yeah really small and probably not worth paying too much probably not worth paying too much probably not worth paying too much attention to that's the hard thing about attention to that's the hard thing about attention to that's the hard thing about numbers is everyone matters numbers is everyone matters numbers is everyone matters but we only think about numbers in the but we only think about numbers in the but we only think about numbers in the aggregate you know like when I was in aggregate you know like when I was in aggregate you know like when I was in grad school we we read this book called grad school we we read this book called grad school we we read this book called suicide by Emil durkheim it's the very suicide by Emil durkheim it's the very suicide by Emil durkheim it's the very first piece that was ever quantitative first piece that was ever quantitative first piece that was ever quantitative piece about religion trying to figure piece about religion trying to figure piece about religion trying to figure out what caused people to commit suicide out what caused people to commit suicide out what caused people to commit suicide and he actually went to morgs around and he actually went to morgs around and he actually went to morgs around Paris and got the death records and they Paris and got the death records and they Paris and got the death records and they used to put things like um religion on used to put things like um religion on used to put things like um religion on your death record so he tried to figure your death record so he tried to figure your death record so he tried to figure out if religion makes you more less out if religion makes you more less out if religion makes you more less likely to commit suicide and he actually likely to commit suicide and he actually likely to commit suicide and he actually found by the way that Protestants commit found by the way that Protestants commit found by the way that Protestants commit suicide at higher rates than Catholics suicide at higher rates than Catholics suicide at higher rates than Catholics do CU protestantism is a more do CU protestantism is a more do CU protestantism is a more individualized religion and Catholicism individualized religion and Catholicism individualized religion and Catholicism is more group religion and social ties is more group religion and social ties is more group religion and social ties are what keeps you from you know killing are what keeps you from you know killing are what keeps you from you know killing yourself at least in Fr in France in yourself at least in Fr in France in yourself at least in Fr in France in 1880 you know so is that but what's 1880 you know so is that but what's 1880 you know so is that but what's interesting is when we had that interesting is when we had that interesting is when we had that discussion in our grad class one person discussion in our grad class one person discussion in our grad class one person goes yeah but doesn't this kind of like goes yeah but doesn't this kind of like goes yeah but doesn't this kind of like dehumanize people you know like we're dehumanize people you know like we're dehumanize people you know like we're talking about individuals who took their talking about individuals who took their talking about individuals who took their own life and we're talking about them own life and we're talking about them own life and we're talking about them almost like in this crass aggregate way almost like in this crass aggregate way almost like in this crass aggregate way and my professor Scott MC just passed and my professor Scott MC just passed and my professor Scott MC just passed away actually said he goes do we care away actually said he goes do we care away actually said he goes do we care about why Bob killed himself yes but we about why Bob killed himself yes but we about why Bob killed himself yes but we care a lot more about why people like care a lot more about why people like care a lot more about why people like Bob killed themselves and so I think Bob killed themselves and so I think Bob killed themselves and so I think that helps us understand like both that helps us understand like both that helps us understand like both things matter but as social scientists things matter but as social scientists things matter but as social scientists we have to talk about things that that we have to talk about things that that we have to talk about things that that that that that top level stuff and 5% of

that that that top level stuff and 5% of that that that top level stuff and 5% of people is not nothing but also it's like people is not nothing but also it's like people is not nothing but also it's like I can't imagine trying to like gear your I can't imagine trying to like gear your I can't imagine trying to like gear your entire religious community towards an entire religious community towards an entire religious community towards an online space it just doesn't seem like online space it just doesn't seem like online space it just doesn't seem like that's a need that's large enough you that's a need that's large enough you that's a need that's large enough you know talk about total addressable Market know talk about total addressable Market know talk about total addressable Market when you go to like do venture when you go to like do venture when you go to like do venture capitalist stuff how many people would capitalist stuff how many people would capitalist stuff how many people would buy your stuff and the answer in this buy your stuff and the answer in this buy your stuff and the answer in this case is not too terribly many to want to case is not too terribly many to want to case is not too terribly many to want to like invest millions of dollar and like invest millions of dollar and like invest millions of dollar and hundreds of hours to try to like bolster hundreds of hours to try to like bolster hundreds of hours to try to like bolster your online web presence I think is your online web presence I think is your online web presence I think is really not a tremendous use of your time really not a tremendous use of your time really not a tremendous use of your time yeah and you know what that is yeah and you know what that is yeah and you know what that is reassuring tracks with what we have said reassuring tracks with what we have said reassuring tracks with what we have said so many times on this show over the so many times on this show over the so many times on this show over the years people who asked us hey like do years people who asked us hey like do years people who asked us hey like do you see a future for like online church you see a future for like online church you see a future for like online church as as an exclusive right like I don't as as an exclusive right like I don't as as an exclusive right like I don't know seems kind of counterintuitive um know seems kind of counterintuitive um know seems kind of counterintuitive um backwards to what the church is is best backwards to what the church is is best backwards to what the church is is best at I wanted to talk a little bit more at I wanted to talk a little bit more at I wanted to talk a little bit more about the people that are both watching about the people that are both watching about the people that are both watching online and attending in person and and I online and attending in person and and I online and attending in person and and I would share your hypothesis Ryan that would share your hypothesis Ryan that would share your hypothesis Ryan that hey the people that are watching online hey the people that are watching online hey the people that are watching online and attending in person they're probably and attending in person they're probably and attending in person they're probably supplementing their in person with like supplementing their in person with like supplementing their in person with like other church services uh most likely the other church services uh most likely the other church services uh most likely the more influential churches and pastors more influential churches and pastors more influential churches and pastors would you say that we can glean anything would you say that we can glean anything would you say that we can glean anything from this data in terms of preference from this data in terms of preference from this data in terms of preference you talked about like this this this you talked about like this this this you talked about like this this this market and how much people care about market and how much people care about market and how much people care about this sort of thing do people like like this sort of thing do people like like this sort of thing do people like like online church more than in person no online church more than in person no online church more than in person no that's actually probably one of the the that's actually probably one of the the that's actually probably one of the the findings that bubbles up the most is findings that bubbles up the most is findings that bubbles up the most is when you looked at people who did at when you looked at people who did at when you looked at people who did at least um once a month for both so you

least um once a month for both so you least um once a month for both so you know they had experience in the online know they had experience in the online know they had experience in the online space and the face to-face space if you space and the face to-face space if you space and the face to-face space if you break it down by age the people who are break it down by age the people who are break it down by age the people who are the most likely to like online are 18 to the most likely to like online are 18 to the most likely to like online are 18 to 29 year olds but only one in five of 29 year olds but only one in five of 29 year olds but only one in five of them said they preferred online while them said they preferred online while them said they preferred online while 2third of them said they preferred in 2third of them said they preferred in 2third of them said they preferred in person so even amongst the youngest person so even amongst the youngest person so even amongst the youngest Americans two third and 15% didn't have Americans two third and 15% didn't have Americans two third and 15% didn't have a preference so 2third of them said they a preference so 2third of them said they a preference so 2third of them said they would rather go in person and only 20% would rather go in person and only 20% would rather go in person and only 20% said they would rather go online amongst said they would rather go online amongst said they would rather go online amongst older people it's at least 75% of them older people it's at least 75% of them older people it's at least 75% of them prefer in-person worship and 10% prefer prefer in-person worship and 10% prefer prefer in-person worship and 10% prefer online worship so you get this online worship so you get this online worship so you get this impression by looking this data that impression by looking this data that impression by looking this data that very very few people go man I could just very very few people go man I could just very very few people go man I could just go to church online the rest of my life go to church online the rest of my life go to church online the rest of my life and that's Fant it feels like it's and that's Fant it feels like it's and that's Fant it feels like it's better than nothing but certainly less better than nothing but certainly less better than nothing but certainly less than the ideal is the impression that than the ideal is the impression that than the ideal is the impression that you get from the data there's actually a you get from the data there's actually a you get from the data there's actually a paper that was just published last year paper that was just published last year paper that was just published last year where they looked at psychological where they looked at psychological where they looked at psychological distress during the pandemic and in the distress during the pandemic and in the distress during the pandemic and in the year after the pandemic and what they year after the pandemic and what they year after the pandemic and what they found was the only thing that reduced found was the only thing that reduced found was the only thing that reduced psychological distress was virtual psychological distress was virtual psychological distress was virtual attendance did nothing for psychological attendance did nothing for psychological attendance did nothing for psychological distress the only thing that did was distress the only thing that did was distress the only thing that did was attending in person at least once a week attending in person at least once a week attending in person at least once a week so there's no benefit no psychological so there's no benefit no psychological so there's no benefit no psychological benefit to being an online attender and benefit to being an online attender and benefit to being an online attender and there was a noticeable statistically there was a noticeable statistically there was a noticeable statistically significant psychological benefit to significant psychological benefit to significant psychological benefit to being being a face Toof face attender so being being a face Toof face attender so being being a face Toof face attender so like it's hard to look at all this data like it's hard to look at all this data like it's hard to look at all this data and say yeah online's fine I mean people and say yeah online's fine I mean people and say yeah online's fine I mean people don't seem to like it that much it's not don't seem to like it that much it's not don't seem to like it that much it's not that large of a population and it

that large of a population and it that large of a population and it doesn't produce the same sort of doesn't produce the same sort of doesn't produce the same sort of empirical positive things in in lives empirical positive things in in lives empirical positive things in in lives that we would want to see both as a that we would want to see both as a that we would want to see both as a pastor and as a social scientist by the pastor and as a social scientist by the pastor and as a social scientist by the way like it's hard to look at this way like it's hard to look at this way like it's hard to look at this objectively and say yeah we should just objectively and say yeah we should just objectively and say yeah we should just replace lots of churches with virtual replace lots of churches with virtual replace lots of churches with virtual church I just don't think that's that's church I just don't think that's that's church I just don't think that's that's not the way to go for the church it's not the way to go for the church it's not the way to go for the church it's not the way to go for society it's not not the way to go for society it's not not the way to go for society it's not the way to go for individual ual either the way to go for individual ual either the way to go for individual ual either this is not a good option it's like this is not a good option it's like this is not a good option it's like candy you know it tastes good right now candy you know it tastes good right now candy you know it tastes good right now but in the end of the end of the day but in the end of the end of the day but in the end of the end of the day it's not going to give you the nutrition it's not going to give you the nutrition it's not going to give you the nutrition you need I think that's pretty clear you need I think that's pretty clear you need I think that's pretty clear coming from this data that's what you're coming from this data that's what you're coming from this data that's what you're seeing for the folks who do attend seeing for the folks who do attend seeing for the folks who do attend online Church according to how your online Church according to how your online Church according to how your article kind of presents the data article kind of presents the data article kind of presents the data something the article does is dispel the something the article does is dispel the something the article does is dispel the myth that like oh it must be uh young myth that like oh it must be uh young myth that like oh it must be uh young folks or like digital natives as we call folks or like digital natives as we call folks or like digital natives as we call them who preferred to to engage with them who preferred to to engage with them who preferred to to engage with Church online um the data as you present Church online um the data as you present Church online um the data as you present it seemed to to say the opposite is that it seemed to to say the opposite is that it seemed to to say the opposite is that it's actually it SK skewed towards older it's actually it SK skewed towards older it's actually it SK skewed towards older folks who are um participating in Church folks who are um participating in Church folks who are um participating in Church online more in contrast than younger online more in contrast than younger online more in contrast than younger folks and I think that kind of gives us folks and I think that kind of gives us folks and I think that kind of gives us a little bit of an insight into as as a little bit of an insight into as as a little bit of an insight into as as churches church leaders as pastors if we churches church leaders as pastors if we churches church leaders as pastors if we are choosing to do online church if we are choosing to do online church if we are choosing to do online church if we look at this data and see okay it's look at this data and see okay it's look at this data and see okay it's mostly older folks who are engaging this mostly older folks who are engaging this mostly older folks who are engaging this engaging with this there are likely engaging with this there are likely engaging with this there are likely reasons uh maybe Mobility or sickness or reasons uh maybe Mobility or sickness or reasons uh maybe Mobility or sickness or whatever but they still want to be whatever but they still want to be whatever but they still want to be connected to the church reverse connected to the church reverse connected to the church reverse engineering that that should inform what engineering that that should inform what engineering that that should inform what we are doing online um as a church if we we are doing online um as a church if we we are doing online um as a church if we can see that okay most folks who are can see that okay most folks who are can see that okay most folks who are engaging with our church online are engaging with our church online are engaging with our church online are actually older and it's probably because actually older and it's probably because actually older and it's probably because of Mobility or something like that how of Mobility or something like that how of Mobility or something like that how can we cater this experience to them

can we cater this experience to them can we cater this experience to them because looking at the data it seems to because looking at the data it seems to because looking at the data it seems to be that's who is really needing this be that's who is really needing this be that's who is really needing this service from our church yeah about 70% service from our church yeah about 70% service from our church yeah about 70% of your virtual only attenders are 50 of your virtual only attenders are 50 of your virtual only attenders are 50 years and older right so they're they years and older right so they're they years and older right so they're they make up a vast over sample of your make up a vast over sample of your make up a vast over sample of your online chur tenders educationally it's online chur tenders educationally it's online chur tenders educationally it's people with a high school diploma or people with a high school diploma or people with a high school diploma or less make up a disproportionate amount less make up a disproportionate amount less make up a disproportionate amount and what is even probably more and what is even probably more and what is even probably more interesting is African-Americans are interesting is African-Americans are interesting is African-Americans are over represented in that virtual only over represented in that virtual only over represented in that virtual only crowd compared to other racial groups so crowd compared to other racial groups so crowd compared to other racial groups so I don't know like what people can see up I don't know like what people can see up I don't know like what people can see up in their minds and think of like they're in their minds and think of like they're in their minds and think of like they're virtual only people but older less virtual only people but older less virtual only people but older less educated and then minor racial educated and then minor racial educated and then minor racial minorities are the ones who are minorities are the ones who are minorities are the ones who are consuming the most virtual only content consuming the most virtual only content consuming the most virtual only content so you know one thing that we have to so you know one thing that we have to so you know one thing that we have to mention though like there's an ableist mention though like there's an ableist mention though like there's an ableist conversation that kind of weaves its way conversation that kind of weaves its way conversation that kind of weaves its way through this larger conversation about through this larger conversation about through this larger conversation about virtual church people who just aren't virtual church people who just aren't virtual church people who just aren't physically able to get to church I think physically able to get to church I think physically able to get to church I think that matters a lot right like I think that matters a lot right like I think that matters a lot right like I think those people need to get something and those people need to get something and those people need to get something and it's clear that this is a an alternative it's clear that this is a an alternative it's clear that this is a an alternative it's obviously not the ideal and I don't it's obviously not the ideal and I don't it's obviously not the ideal and I don't think it should be seen as the ideal but think it should be seen as the ideal but think it should be seen as the ideal but for some people it's good I think you for some people it's good I think you for some people it's good I think you still got to find a way to bring those still got to find a way to bring those still got to find a way to bring those people into the social fold of what the people into the social fold of what the people into the social fold of what the church is about you know like that's we church is about you know like that's we church is about you know like that's we can't forget the horizontal dimension of can't forget the horizontal dimension of can't forget the horizontal dimension of meeting in in space with each other and meeting in in space with each other and meeting in in space with each other and you know the online thing doesn't you know the online thing doesn't you know the online thing doesn't generate those same benefits so how do generate those same benefits so how do generate those same benefits so how do you how do you balance those scales you how do you balance those scales you how do you balance those scales right with like wanting to be inclusive right with like wanting to be inclusive right with like wanting to be inclusive to people who can't physically come or to people who can't physically come or to people who can't physically come or maybe are traveling but also encouraging

maybe are traveling but also encouraging maybe are traveling but also encouraging the people who can be there in person to the people who can be there in person to the people who can be there in person to be there in person as much as they be there in person as much as they be there in person as much as they possibly can without turning off the possibly can without turning off the possibly can without turning off the other people I think that's a very other people I think that's a very other people I think that's a very delicate balance to strike what I've delicate balance to strike what I've delicate balance to strike what I've been telling pastors is just think about been telling pastors is just think about been telling pastors is just think about this idea there's this idea called this idea there's this idea called this idea there's this idea called friction in the economics literature friction in the economics literature friction in the economics literature just make something a little bit harder just make something a little bit harder just make something a little bit harder or a little bit easier and people will or a little bit easier and people will or a little bit easier and people will make different decisions what if the make different decisions what if the make different decisions what if the stream wasn't automatically posted on stream wasn't automatically posted on stream wasn't automatically posted on social media you had to email someone to social media you had to email someone to social media you had to email someone to get a code or a link to get that stream get a code or a link to get that stream get a code or a link to get that stream if I'm if I'm just not going because I'm if I'm if I'm just not going because I'm if I'm if I'm just not going because I'm lazy I'm going to have you know some lazy I'm going to have you know some lazy I'm going to have you know some some guilt about that and I won't be some guilt about that and I won't be some guilt about that and I won't be emailing someone but if I'm traveling or emailing someone but if I'm traveling or emailing someone but if I'm traveling or I'm sick then I have no problem emailing I'm sick then I have no problem emailing I'm sick then I have no problem emailing and asking for the code of the link to and asking for the code of the link to and asking for the code of the link to get to that streaming service so I think get to that streaming service so I think get to that streaming service so I think you got to think about ways to balance you got to think about ways to balance you got to think about ways to balance that out you know where you you meet that out you know where you you meet that out you know where you you meet everyone where they're at without everyone where they're at without everyone where they're at without turning anyone off but also I think you turning anyone off but also I think you turning anyone off but also I think you got to understand that you know you're got to understand that you know you're got to understand that you know you're not going to be able to compete the not going to be able to compete the not going to be able to compete the average church is not going to be able average church is not going to be able average church is not going to be able to compete with elevation or Saddleback to compete with elevation or Saddleback to compete with elevation or Saddleback or you know Life Church that's spending or you know Life Church that's spending or you know Life Church that's spending literally millions of dollars on their literally millions of dollars on their literally millions of dollars on their online component a lot of people are online component a lot of people are online component a lot of people are flocking to that because it's so slick flocking to that because it's so slick flocking to that because it's so slick you know what is your Niche if it's not you know what is your Niche if it's not you know what is your Niche if it's not slick you got to find something else I slick you got to find something else I slick you got to find something else I don't think a lot of smaller churches don't think a lot of smaller churches don't think a lot of smaller churches really have enough manpower and money to really have enough manpower and money to really have enough manpower and money to kind of find a niche that makes you know kind of find a niche that makes you know kind of find a niche that makes you know any sense to them for about 10 years any sense to them for about 10 years any sense to them for about 10 years Ryan we have been quite vocal about our Ryan we have been quite vocal about our Ryan we have been quite vocal about our belief that live streaming is belief that live streaming is belief that live streaming is tremendously overvalued in the church tremendously overvalued in the church tremendously overvalued in the church space relative to its outcomes and what space relative to its outcomes and what space relative to its outcomes and what it contributes to uh local churches and it contributes to uh local churches and it contributes to uh local churches and the spiritual growth of the parishioners

the spiritual growth of the parishioners the spiritual growth of the parishioners and so this is really good data to and so this is really good data to and so this is really good data to support our claims one of the push backs support our claims one of the push backs support our claims one of the push backs that we've got over the years many times that we've got over the years many times that we've got over the years many times has been like well what about those at has been like well what about those at has been like well what about those at Travel what about those who are bedward Travel what about those who are bedward Travel what about those who are bedward and and and what I've always said is and and and what I've always said is and and and what I've always said is like look just have a private stream set like look just have a private stream set like look just have a private stream set up a you know real cheap camcorder put up a you know real cheap camcorder put up a you know real cheap camcorder put it in the back of the sanctuary make it in the back of the sanctuary make it in the back of the sanctuary make that available to those that are part of that available to those that are part of that available to those that are part of the congregation that are not but that the congregation that are not but that the congregation that are not but that doesn't need to be like the big front doesn't need to be like the big front doesn't need to be like the big front and center thing that you're trying to and center thing that you're trying to and center thing that you're trying to attract people to your church or attract people to your church or attract people to your church or introduce your church for the very first introduce your church for the very first introduce your church for the very first time it's probably not making the best time it's probably not making the best time it's probably not making the best first impression anyway take those same first impression anyway take those same first impression anyway take those same resources invest them into your website resources invest them into your website resources invest them into your website invest them into your Social Ministry invest them into your Social Ministry invest them into your Social Ministry invest them into one of our favorite invest them into one of our favorite invest them into one of our favorite things has always been creating a church things has always been creating a church things has always been creating a church welcome video that you can post for welcome video that you can post for welcome video that you can post for three uh like 3 to 12 months 12 to 18 three uh like 3 to 12 months 12 to 18 three uh like 3 to 12 months 12 to 18 months I however Longing To Be hey this months I however Longing To Be hey this months I however Longing To Be hey this is what it's like to attend our church is what it's like to attend our church is what it's like to attend our church for the very first time here's where you for the very first time here's where you for the very first time here's where you park here's where you enter through the park here's where you enter through the park here's where you enter through the doors if you have kids here's where you doors if you have kids here's where you doors if you have kids here's where you take them here's what's to uh what to take them here's what's to uh what to take them here's what's to uh what to expect on a Sunday here's what a lot of expect on a Sunday here's what a lot of expect on a Sunday here's what a lot of people wear here's you know how long people wear here's you know how long people wear here's you know how long service programming goes here's where to service programming goes here's where to service programming goes here's where to get connected and volunteer and now get connected and volunteer and now get connected and volunteer and now that's a great way of using online to that's a great way of using online to that's a great way of using online to introduce people to in person which we introduce people to in person which we introduce people to in person which we know in person is what uh makes Church know in person is what uh makes Church know in person is what uh makes Church special anyway so it sounds like put it special anyway so it sounds like put it special anyway so it sounds like put it on the Marquee online Church uh on the Marquee online Church uh on the Marquee online Church uh ineffective uh nobody wants it and even ineffective uh nobody wants it and even ineffective uh nobody wants it and even the people that do use it don't really the people that do use it don't really the people that do use it don't really like it yeah that's that's really the like it yeah that's that's really the like it yeah that's that's really the takeaway honestly goodness those are takeaway honestly goodness those are takeaway honestly goodness those are pretty good takeaways no one it's it's pretty good takeaways no one it's it's pretty good takeaways no one it's it's sort of like um better than nothing but sort of like um better than nothing but sort of like um better than nothing but no one really likes it but I do like the no one really likes it but I do like the no one really likes it but I do like the idea of a church video like when I'm idea of a church video like when I'm idea of a church video like when I'm going to go to a new restaurant first going to go to a new restaurant first going to go to a new restaurant first thing I do is Google the menu and figure

thing I do is Google the menu and figure thing I do is Google the menu and figure out like I'm going to give a talk in out like I'm going to give a talk in out like I'm going to give a talk in Upstate New York later this week in the Upstate New York later this week in the Upstate New York later this week in the chiaka institution and like they were chiaka institution and like they were chiaka institution and like they were like well the dress code is business and like well the dress code is business and like well the dress code is business and I'm like wait is it really business so I I'm like wait is it really business so I I'm like wait is it really business so I started watching videos from chiaka to started watching videos from chiaka to started watching videos from chiaka to see what people were wearing in the see what people were wearing in the see what people were wearing in the crowd and then what the speakers are crowd and then what the speakers are crowd and then what the speakers are wearing to know what I should wear too wearing to know what I should wear too wearing to know what I should wear too so if you made a video people like oh so if you made a video people like oh so if you made a video people like oh this is what people are wearing I don't this is what people are wearing I don't this is what people are wearing I don't want to stand out this is what to expect want to stand out this is what to expect want to stand out this is what to expect when I get there like a 90 90 second when I get there like a 90 90 second when I get there like a 90 90 second video would be incredibly helpful I video would be incredibly helpful I video would be incredibly helpful I think for a lot to lower that barrier of think for a lot to lower that barrier of think for a lot to lower that barrier of uncertainty they have in their minds and uncertainty they have in their minds and uncertainty they have in their minds and go okay at least I know some of what I'm go okay at least I know some of what I'm go okay at least I know some of what I'm getting myself into that might be enough getting myself into that might be enough getting myself into that might be enough for some people to go well I was online for some people to go well I was online for some people to go well I was online and now I'll come in person because I and now I'll come in person because I and now I'll come in person because I know more about the sanctuary and the know more about the sanctuary and the know more about the sanctuary and the space and what to expect a really low-fi space and what to expect a really low-fi space and what to expect a really low-fi version of this I saw on a Church's version of this I saw on a Church's version of this I saw on a Church's website this past week their call to website this past week their call to website this past week their call to action button at the top of their action button at the top of their action button at the top of their website on the hero section on the website on the hero section on the website on the hero section on the homepage was greetings from Pastor Ross homepage was greetings from Pastor Ross homepage was greetings from Pastor Ross and you clicked this YouTube video light and you clicked this YouTube video light and you clicked this YouTube video light box opens up and it's just Pastor Ross box opens up and it's just Pastor Ross box opens up and it's just Pastor Ross sitting at a table recorded on what was sitting at a table recorded on what was sitting at a table recorded on what was clearly not like the highest uh you know clearly not like the highest uh you know clearly not like the highest uh you know amazing setup and it's just him talking amazing setup and it's just him talking amazing setup and it's just him talking to the camera hey I'm the pastor of this to the camera hey I'm the pastor of this to the camera hey I'm the pastor of this church here's what to expect like even church here's what to expect like even church here's what to expect like even that is superior at making a good first that is superior at making a good first that is superior at making a good first impression at introducing people to your impression at introducing people to your impression at introducing people to your church uh than a live stream in most church uh than a live stream in most church uh than a live stream in most cases I uh would say okay let's um hard cases I uh would say okay let's um hard cases I uh would say okay let's um hard pivot to a very different subject pivot to a very different subject pivot to a very different subject matter and this is uh the article's matter and this is uh the article's matter and this is uh the article's title does going to church keep youth title does going to church keep youth title does going to church keep youth from drinking and smoking um I changed from drinking and smoking um I changed from drinking and smoking um I changed cly not going to online church that's cly not going to online church that's cly not going to online church that's not going to keep him from anything not going to keep him from anything not going to keep him from anything online Church won't yeah no don't affect online Church won't yeah no don't affect online Church won't yeah no don't affect anything yeah um here's here here's one

anything yeah um here's here here's one anything yeah um here's here here's one of the parts of the opening paragraph of the parts of the opening paragraph of the parts of the opening paragraph that you said when I got into youth that you said when I got into youth that you said when I got into youth group this quote from you when I got group this quote from you when I got group this quote from you when I got into youth group my involvement with into youth group my involvement with into youth group my involvement with church accelerated significantly it church accelerated significantly it church accelerated significantly it seemed like I was there every day end seemed like I was there every day end seemed like I was there every day end quote the reason I wrote that down is quote the reason I wrote that down is quote the reason I wrote that down is because I had a virtually identical because I had a virtually identical because I had a virtually identical experience um with church and I feel experience um with church and I feel experience um with church and I feel like the church that I got into got into like the church that I got into got into like the church that I got into got into was very formative in the decisions that was very formative in the decisions that was very formative in the decisions that I made uh about things that were like I made uh about things that were like I made uh about things that were like this in high school am I the exception this in high school am I the exception this in high school am I the exception to the rule what does the data say so I to the rule what does the data say so I to the rule what does the data say so I will say this what's really really will say this what's really really will say this what's really really striking to most people who don't pay striking to most people who don't pay striking to most people who don't pay attention to youth data very much is Man attention to youth data very much is Man attention to youth data very much is Man kids back in the 70s partied a lot like kids back in the 70s partied a lot like kids back in the 70s partied a lot like 92% of high school seniors had consumed 92% of high school seniors had consumed 92% of high school seniors had consumed alcohol in alcohol in alcohol in 1976 and 76% of them smoke cigarettes 1976 and 76% of them smoke cigarettes 1976 and 76% of them smoke cigarettes like everyone was partying in the 70s like everyone was partying in the 70s like everyone was partying in the 70s man maybe that's why our parents were so man maybe that's why our parents were so man maybe that's why our parents were so adamant that we didn't do it because adamant that we didn't do it because adamant that we didn't do it because they all we've been there done that yeah they all we've been there done that yeah they all we've been there done that yeah yeah I I think we forget you know like yeah I I think we forget you know like yeah I I think we forget you know like we kind of like look back with this like we kind of like look back with this like we kind of like look back with this like Rosy picture of American history that Rosy picture of American history that Rosy picture of American history that kids used to be all polite and Leave it kids used to be all polite and Leave it kids used to be all polite and Leave it to Beaver style back in the day now kids to Beaver style back in the day now kids to Beaver style back in the day now kids were raging back in the day man they were raging back in the day man they were raging back in the day man they were partying like crazy and what's were partying like crazy and what's were partying like crazy and what's happened happened happened which I think is really fascinating is which I think is really fascinating is which I think is really fascinating is that both those numbers have declined that both those numbers have declined that both those numbers have declined precipitously over the last 45 years or precipitously over the last 45 years or precipitously over the last 45 years or so so 92% of of te High School seniors so so 92% of of te High School seniors so so 92% of of te High School seniors drank alcohol in 1976 today it's 53% so drank alcohol in 1976 today it's 53% so drank alcohol in 1976 today it's 53% so basically a coin flip it used to be

basically a coin flip it used to be basically a coin flip it used to be almost everyone and now it's 50/50 so almost everyone and now it's 50/50 so almost everyone and now it's 50/50 so that's in and of itself is amazing if that's in and of itself is amazing if that's in and of itself is amazing if you sit back and think about what that you sit back and think about what that you sit back and think about what that means like just means like just means like just sociologically smoking is even larger sociologically smoking is even larger sociologically smoking is even larger than that 76% of high school seniors than that 76% of high school seniors than that 76% of high school seniors smoked cigarettes in 1976 today it's smoked cigarettes in 1976 today it's smoked cigarettes in 1976 today it's 177% 177% 177% 17% so now to find a kid who smokes and 17% so now to find a kid who smokes and 17% so now to find a kid who smokes and drinks it's like finding a unicorn when drinks it's like finding a unicorn when drinks it's like finding a unicorn when it was like just like everybody sitting it was like just like everybody sitting it was like just like everybody sitting next to you in 1976 was smoking and next to you in 1976 was smoking and next to you in 1976 was smoking and drinking and now hardly anyone smokes drinking and now hardly anyone smokes drinking and now hardly anyone smokes and drinks like this is um Jee twingy and drinks like this is um Jee twingy and drinks like this is um Jee twingy wrote a book called Generations which I wrote a book called Generations which I wrote a book called Generations which I recommend by the way it's a lot of this recommend by the way it's a lot of this recommend by the way it's a lot of this data that I'm using here she uses in her data that I'm using here she uses in her data that I'm using here she uses in her book and and she makes this bigger book and and she makes this bigger book and and she makes this bigger argument that like Jen Z is like the argument that like Jen Z is like the argument that like Jen Z is like the safest generation in American history safest generation in American history safest generation in American history like they do not party like any prior like they do not party like any prior like they do not party like any prior generation partied and I don't talk generation partied and I don't talk generation partied and I don't talk about this in the article I want to about this in the article I want to about this in the article I want to write something else about this at some write something else about this at some write something else about this at some point they're getting their driver's point they're getting their driver's point they're getting their driver's licenses later than ever before they're licenses later than ever before they're licenses later than ever before they're getting full-time or part-time jobs getting full-time or part-time jobs getting full-time or part-time jobs later than ever before they're having later than ever before they're having later than ever before they're having sex later than ever before they're doing sex later than ever before they're doing sex later than ever before they're doing drugs later than ever before they're drugs later than ever before they're drugs later than ever before they're smoking later than ever before they're smoking later than ever before they're smoking later than ever before they're drinking in every possible way this drinking in every possible way this drinking in every possible way this generation is doing a lot less of the generation is doing a lot less of the generation is doing a lot less of the quote unquote bad stuff they're just not quote unquote bad stuff they're just not quote unquote bad stuff they're just not they're not raging like younger they're not raging like younger they're not raging like younger Generations did and I think you know we Generations did and I think you know we Generations did and I think you know we have to have a a conversation as a as a have to have a a conversation as a as a have to have a a conversation as a as a church and as a society why that is and church and as a society why that is and church and as a society why that is and if that's this is going to sound weird if that's this is going to sound weird if that's this is going to sound weird be on a Christian podcast is that be on a Christian podcast is that be on a Christian podcast is that necessarily a good thing you know like necessarily a good thing you know like necessarily a good thing you know like these PE these kids growing up a lot these PE these kids growing up a lot these PE these kids growing up a lot slower it's like Mark Driscoll here for

slower it's like Mark Driscoll here for slower it's like Mark Driscoll here for a second grow up young men and become a second grow up young men and become a second grow up young men and become but you know what I mean like you got to but you know what I mean like you got to but you know what I mean like you got to think like at some point like the the think like at some point like the the think like at some point like the the Amish understand room Springer right Amish understand room Springer right Amish understand room Springer right which is like you grow up for a long which is like you grow up for a long which is like you grow up for a long time in that Community then they give time in that Community then they give time in that Community then they give you a window time to go out and just do you a window time to go out and just do you a window time to go out and just do whatever the heck you want for a year whatever the heck you want for a year whatever the heck you want for a year and if you want to come back great and and if you want to come back great and and if you want to come back great and if you don't want to come but what if if you don't want to come but what if if you don't want to come but what if you never have a room Springer what if you never have a room Springer what if you never have a room Springer what if you never go sew your Wild Oats what you never go sew your Wild Oats what you never go sew your Wild Oats what does that do for you longterm does that do for you longterm does that do for you longterm psychologically religiously psychologically religiously psychologically religiously sociologically we're not entirely sure sociologically we're not entirely sure sociologically we're not entirely sure because we've never seen a generation because we've never seen a generation because we've never seen a generation like the one we have right now okay so like the one we have right now okay so like the one we have right now okay so my mother was born in 1964 my father my mother was born in 1964 my father my mother was born in 1964 my father 1963 when I was in fourth grade I had my 1963 when I was in fourth grade I had my 1963 when I was in fourth grade I had my first science fair project and my mother first science fair project and my mother first science fair project and my mother said we're going to get you to smoke said we're going to get you to smoke said we're going to get you to smoke some cigarettes son in the fourth some cigarettes son in the fourth some cigarettes son in the fourth grade and she's like because you're not grade and she's like because you're not grade and she's like because you're not going to be a smoker because it's awful going to be a smoker because it's awful going to be a smoker because it's awful and you're about to learn so I smoked a and you're about to learn so I smoked a and you're about to learn so I smoked a cigarette fourth grade she made me cigarette fourth grade she made me cigarette fourth grade she made me finish the whole thing we went to the finish the whole thing we went to the finish the whole thing we went to the local convenience store she made sure to local convenience store she made sure to local convenience store she made sure to pick out a pack that she said was pick out a pack that she said was pick out a pack that she said was especially UHS or something she's like especially UHS or something she's like especially UHS or something she's like oh we don't even use filters in the 70s oh we don't even use filters in the 70s oh we don't even use filters in the 70s you're going to like this so I smok the you're going to like this so I smok the you're going to like this so I smok the whole thing I'm weeping I no like whole thing I'm weeping I no like whole thing I'm weeping I no like literal this is not that I'm crying I literal this is not that I'm crying I literal this is not that I'm crying I drink an entire gallon of lemonade and drink an entire gallon of lemonade and drink an entire gallon of lemonade and never smoked again basically she sent me never smoked again basically she sent me never smoked again basically she sent me straight and surely that was informed by straight and surely that was informed by straight and surely that was informed by her experience in the 7s right so she is her experience in the 7s right so she is her experience in the 7s right so she is a teenager right when like if you're not a teenager right when like if you're not a teenager right when like if you're not smoking that's very very very strange of smoking that's very very very strange of smoking that's very very very strange of course I'm in high school and the idea course I'm in high school and the idea course I'm in high school and the idea of smoking irrespective of my church

of smoking irrespective of my church of smoking irrespective of my church involvement was kind of like oh you're involvement was kind of like oh you're involvement was kind of like oh you're like there was the smoker Hill in our like there was the smoker Hill in our like there was the smoker Hill in our high school that was kind of like called high school that was kind of like called high school that was kind of like called it the smoke pit now were you near the it the smoke pit now were you near the it the smoke pit now were you near the smoke pit Alex well listen to me I smoke pit Alex well listen to me I smoke pit Alex well listen to me I didn't have a youth pastor who who stood didn't have a youth pastor who who stood didn't have a youth pastor who who stood in the Gap and said hey you need to in the Gap and said hey you need to in the Gap and said hey you need to smoke this cigarette from tip to butt smoke this cigarette from tip to butt smoke this cigarette from tip to butt and then you'll never smoke again right and then you'll never smoke again right and then you'll never smoke again right because you were the you your your dad because you were the you your your dad because you were the you your your dad is a pastor so you were surely set is a pastor so you were surely set is a pastor so you were surely set right listen I I did not have the same right listen I I did not have the same right listen I I did not have the same experience as you and I I was I was experience as you and I I was I was experience as you and I I was I was counted amongst the how many did you say counted amongst the how many did you say counted amongst the how many did you say Ryan uh seniors were were smoking in Ryan uh seniors were were smoking in Ryan uh seniors were were smoking in high school I coin flip these high school I coin flip these high school I coin flip these days those but okay so so tell us Ryan days those but okay so so tell us Ryan days those but okay so so tell us Ryan what's what role does the church play what's what role does the church play what's what role does the church play how how resp is the church for the how how resp is the church for the how how resp is the church for the decline in these uh raging and ring decline in these uh raging and ring decline in these uh raging and ring clearly we had Revival and now because clearly we had Revival and now because clearly we had Revival and now because of the church this is this this happened of the church this is this this happened of the church this is this this happened yes that's actually the really like I yes that's actually the really like I yes that's actually the really like I don't know depressing part if you're a don't know depressing part if you're a don't know depressing part if you're a youth pastor is like almost youth pastor is like almost youth pastor is like almost nothing almost nothing to do with the nothing almost nothing to do with the nothing almost nothing to do with the decline because if you if you track I so decline because if you if you track I so decline because if you if you track I so they only ask a couple questions about they only ask a couple questions about they only ask a couple questions about uh religion in this survey one's uh religion in this survey one's uh religion in this survey one's attendance and one's how important is attendance and one's how important is attendance and one's how important is religion to you and if you look on religion to you and if you look on religion to you and if you look on either metric man like the so people who either metric man like the so people who either metric man like the so people who attend the Young people who attended attend the Young people who attended attend the Young people who attended weekly are slightly less likely to drink weekly are slightly less likely to drink weekly are slightly less likely to drink and smoke than everyone else but it's and smoke than everyone else but it's and smoke than everyone else but it's like seven points less likely and what's like seven points less likely and what's like seven points less likely and what's funny is like all the lines move in funny is like all the lines move in funny is like all the lines move in concert with each other it's just the concert with each other it's just the concert with each other it's just the weekly lines like five seven points weekly lines like five seven points weekly lines like five seven points lower than the other lines so everyone lower than the other lines so everyone lower than the other lines so everyone was declining at the same time it's just was declining at the same time it's just was declining at the same time it's just the weekly number is just slightly lower

the weekly number is just slightly lower the weekly number is just slightly lower than everybody else so I just don't than everybody else so I just don't than everybody else so I just don't think you can look at those numbers and think you can look at those numbers and think you can look at those numbers and go yep it's definitely the church going go yep it's definitely the church going go yep it's definitely the church going thing that's the other thing is like thing that's the other thing is like thing that's the other thing is like church going amongst young people is church going amongst young people is church going amongst young people is just absolutely falling off the table just absolutely falling off the table just absolutely falling off the table right so as religion has gone down among right so as religion has gone down among right so as religion has gone down among young people smoking and drinking has young people smoking and drinking has young people smoking and drinking has also gone down among young people so also gone down among young people so also gone down among young people so it's it's almost like it it can't be it's it's almost like it it can't be it's it's almost like it it can't be religion there's no way you can look at religion there's no way you can look at religion there's no way you can look at this data and go it's because religion this data and go it's because religion this data and go it's because religion is keeping the kids away from the is keeping the kids away from the is keeping the kids away from the smoking and the drinking it's something smoking and the drinking it's something smoking and the drinking it's something that's going on in the larger society that's going on in the larger society that's going on in the larger society which I again I think is worth some which I again I think is worth some which I again I think is worth some conversation about what changed amongst conversation about what changed amongst conversation about what changed amongst gen Z that was not true amongst gen Z that was not true amongst gen Z that was not true amongst Millennials amongst Gen X like how do we Millennials amongst Gen X like how do we Millennials amongst Gen X like how do we raise our kids differently than when we raise our kids differently than when we raise our kids differently than when we were raised make them so darn scared to were raised make them so darn scared to were raised make them so darn scared to try anything to go you know to go do try anything to go you know to go do try anything to go you know to go do these kind of risky behaviors I think we these kind of risky behaviors I think we these kind of risky behaviors I think we all look back and go man I was dumb when all look back and go man I was dumb when all look back and go man I was dumb when I was a kid but man that was fun you I was a kid but man that was fun you I was a kid but man that was fun you know and I wonder what what are kids you know and I wonder what what are kids you know and I wonder what what are kids you know like the kids who are 16 now in 15 know like the kids who are 16 now in 15 know like the kids who are 16 now in 15 years when they're in their 30s going to years when they're in their 30s going to years when they're in their 30s going to look back when they're teenagers and go look back when they're teenagers and go look back when they're teenagers and go gosh I didn't do anything fun you know gosh I didn't do anything fun you know gosh I didn't do anything fun you know like I wasn't doing all the dumb stuff like I wasn't doing all the dumb stuff like I wasn't doing all the dumb stuff that my parents and grandparents did and that my parents and grandparents did and that my parents and grandparents did and I really missed out on they're going to I really missed out on they're going to I really missed out on they're going to get like a YOLO moment you know like a a get like a YOLO moment you know like a a get like a YOLO moment you know like a a nostalgic YOLO for like I did not do nostalgic YOLO for like I did not do nostalgic YOLO for like I did not do those dumb things um and they might turn those dumb things um and they might turn those dumb things um and they might turn out fine I don't know but again we're out fine I don't know but again we're out fine I don't know but again we're running this experiment on people in running this experiment on people in running this experiment on people in real time and they're going to be adults real time and they're going to be adults real time and they're going to be adults someday and they're going to what how someday and they're going to what how someday and they're going to what how are they going to raise their kids is are they going to raise their kids is are they going to raise their kids is the pendulum going to swing the other the pendulum going to swing the other the pendulum going to swing the other way like here's some you know like drink way like here's some you know like drink way like here's some you know like drink okay smoke okay like I I just don't know okay smoke okay like I I just don't know okay smoke okay like I I just don't know how this ends because we've never seen how this ends because we've never seen how this ends because we've never seen this quick of a change in Behavior this quick of a change in Behavior this quick of a change in Behavior amongst young people so we don't know

amongst young people so we don't know amongst young people so we don't know what the other side of this looks like what the other side of this looks like what the other side of this looks like yet so this all really interests me like yet so this all really interests me like yet so this all really interests me like the the downside of so much like the the downside of so much like the the downside of so much like abstinence from all these things uh when abstinence from all these things uh when abstinence from all these things uh when I got involved with church in high I got involved with church in high I got involved with church in high school I like was going I was extremely school I like was going I was extremely school I like was going I was extremely devoted uh famously did not go to prom devoted uh famously did not go to prom devoted uh famously did not go to prom because I was serving at Junior youth because I was serving at Junior youth because I was serving at Junior youth wow as an example and uh my wife who did wow as an example and uh my wife who did wow as an example and uh my wife who did go to prom with another go to prom with another go to prom with another man uh was like you're really dumb you man uh was like you're really dumb you man uh was like you're really dumb you know that and my mom was like what are know that and my mom was like what are know that and my mom was like what are you doing go to prom I was like Mom you doing go to prom I was like Mom you doing go to prom I was like Mom these kids are like in grade six seven these kids are like in grade six seven these kids are like in grade six seven eight they need a mentor me we're going eight they need a mentor me we're going eight they need a mentor me we're going to an amusement park like I can't miss to an amusement park like I can't miss to an amusement park like I can't miss that my mom urged me once like my mom that my mom urged me once like my mom that my mom urged me once like my mom loved to be clear my mom loved Jesus an loved to be clear my mom loved Jesus an loved to be clear my mom loved Jesus an extremely amazing woman uh my spiritual extremely amazing woman uh my spiritual extremely amazing woman uh my spiritual Mentor not always though because in high Mentor not always though because in high Mentor not always though because in high school she would urge me she's like just school she would urge me she's like just school she would urge me she's like just kiss a girl son and I was like Mom like kiss a girl son and I was like Mom like kiss a girl son and I was like Mom like I dated my wife for an entire year I dated my wife for an entire year I dated my wife for an entire year before before we kissed um and I that before before we kissed um and I that before before we kissed um and I that was like the only woman I kissed ever was like the only woman I kissed ever was like the only woman I kissed ever except for a secret relationship I had except for a secret relationship I had except for a secret relationship I had with a girl from youth group group where with a girl from youth group group where with a girl from youth group group where I would bike Two Towns over like 35 km I would bike Two Towns over like 35 km I would bike Two Towns over like 35 km sorry 20 mil I'd bike to see this girl sorry 20 mil I'd bike to see this girl sorry 20 mil I'd bike to see this girl and I took her to a Christian music and I took her to a Christian music and I took her to a Christian music festival and I asked my mom as an adult festival and I asked my mom as an adult festival and I asked my mom as an adult cuz we didn't work out and I asked my cuz we didn't work out and I asked my cuz we didn't work out and I asked my mom I was like you knew we weren't just mom I was like you knew we weren't just mom I was like you knew we weren't just friends like I was kissing her she's friends like I was kissing her she's friends like I was kissing her she's like yeah I know you dummy you weren you like yeah I know you dummy you weren you like yeah I know you dummy you weren you weren't like of course we knew we

weren't like of course we knew we weren't like of course we knew we thought that was good like you know you thought that was good like you know you thought that was good like you know you you both love Jesus you're figured you both love Jesus you're figured you both love Jesus you're figured you're a teenager like that's you're a teenager like that's you're a teenager like that's fascinating because I always like fascinating because I always like fascinating because I always like thought oh this is this is thought oh this is this is thought oh this is this is bad so your mom well you mentioned your bad so your mom well you mentioned your bad so your mom well you mentioned your mom was born in the 60s gr up in the 70s mom was born in the 60s gr up in the 70s mom was born in the 60s gr up in the 70s so she was she was one of these raving so she was she was one of these raving so she was she was one of these raving raging kids and she saw you missing out raging kids and she saw you missing out raging kids and she saw you missing out and she knew as a teenager that's a safe and she knew as a teenager that's a safe and she knew as a teenager that's a safe time to try that stuff you're going to time to try that stuff you're going to time to try that stuff you're going to grow up and grow out of it she just grow up and grow out of it she just grow up and grow out of it she just wanted you to have the same experience wanted you to have the same experience wanted you to have the same experience but you're part of this uh stat group of but you're part of this uh stat group of but you're part of this uh stat group of downward trends of kids not smoking or downward trends of kids not smoking or downward trends of kids not smoking or drinking right she was doing illicit drinking right she was doing illicit drinking right she was doing illicit drugs and I was like oh I kissed a girl drugs and I was like oh I kissed a girl drugs and I was like oh I kissed a girl like she's like yeah it's fine you're like she's like yeah it's fine you're like she's like yeah it's fine you're going to you're going to be fine going to you're going to be fine going to you're going to be fine but I think that's like the bigger but I think that's like the bigger but I think that's like the bigger question though is like what is a we question though is like what is a we question though is like what is a we want our kids to experience life right want our kids to experience life right want our kids to experience life right like most things in you want them to like most things in you want them to like most things in you want them to experience not every you don't want to experience not every you don't want to experience not every you don't want to get like hooked on Heroin obviously but get like hooked on Heroin obviously but get like hooked on Heroin obviously but like do you how how how much value is like do you how how how much value is like do you how how how much value is there in your kid maybe drinking a there in your kid maybe drinking a there in your kid maybe drinking a little bit of beer when they graduate little bit of beer when they graduate little bit of beer when they graduate high school you know what I mean or high school you know what I mean or high school you know what I mean or smoking a little pot here like what is smoking a little pot here like what is smoking a little pot here like what is as from a youth I'm not a youth pastor as from a youth I'm not a youth pastor as from a youth I'm not a youth pastor anym I used to be it was like anym I used to be it was like anym I used to be it was like abolitionist back in the day right like abolitionist back in the day right like abolitionist back in the day right like you wanted to make sure the kids stayed you wanted to make sure the kids stayed you wanted to make sure the kids stayed far far away from all that stuff but I far far away from all that stuff but I far far away from all that stuff but I think you also don't want them to get think you also don't want them to get think you also don't want them to get older and go gosh I live such a buttoned older and go gosh I live such a buttoned older and go gosh I live such a buttoned up youth that I missed all these I think up youth that I missed all these I think up youth that I missed all these I think a lot of times when people have that a lot of times when people have that a lot of times when people have that really bad midlife crisis it's because really bad midlife crisis it's because really bad midlife crisis it's because they did not they did not blow it out they did not they did not blow it out they did not they did not blow it out when they were kids and like you got to when they were kids and like you got to when they were kids and like you got to sew your Wild Oats at some point I think sew your Wild Oats at some point I think sew your Wild Oats at some point I think the average person is not cool living a the average person is not cool living a the average person is not cool living a buttoned up life 100% everyone has a buttoned up life 100% everyone has a buttoned up life 100% everyone has a vice that's what I've got as I've gotten vice that's what I've got as I've gotten vice that's what I've got as I've gotten older I've realized everyone has a vice

older I've realized everyone has a vice older I've realized everyone has a vice it's just teaching us how to you know it's just teaching us how to you know it's just teaching us how to you know like be controlled with those vices to like be controlled with those vices to like be controlled with those vices to not like cause damage to ourselves or not like cause damage to ourselves or not like cause damage to ourselves or people around us is the most important people around us is the most important people around us is the most important thing I think the whole like I kiss thing I think the whole like I kiss thing I think the whole like I kiss Dating Goodbye thing was so ruinous Dating Goodbye thing was so ruinous Dating Goodbye thing was so ruinous because it said no you got to live because it said no you got to live because it said no you got to live completely buttoned up in this Pure Life completely buttoned up in this Pure Life completely buttoned up in this Pure Life knowing that 98% of us are not wired to knowing that 98% of us are not wired to knowing that 98% of us are not wired to do that and we're going to feel guilty do that and we're going to feel guilty do that and we're going to feel guilty and shame and terrible people because we and shame and terrible people because we and shame and terrible people because we maybe kissed a girl or held hands with a maybe kissed a girl or held hands with a maybe kissed a girl or held hands with a girl or dated someone before we got girl or dated someone before we got girl or dated someone before we got married when it's like man what kind of married when it's like man what kind of married when it's like man what kind of standard are we holding kids to because standard are we holding kids to because standard are we holding kids to because all that standard did for me personally all that standard did for me personally all that standard did for me personally was lead to a lot of personal shame and was lead to a lot of personal shame and was lead to a lot of personal shame and guilt that's what it led to I I've been guilt that's what it led to I I've been guilt that's what it led to I I've been married my wife now for almost uh almost married my wife now for almost uh almost married my wife now for almost uh almost 17 years we have a great relationship I 17 years we have a great relationship I 17 years we have a great relationship I kissed other girls before I married her kissed other girls before I married her kissed other girls before I married her do I regret that absolutely not you know do I regret that absolutely not you know do I regret that absolutely not you know what I mean so like I think the problem what I mean so like I think the problem what I mean so like I think the problem is that you're you're heaping what is is that you're you're heaping what is is that you're you're heaping what is too much what what is too high of a too much what what is too high of a too much what what is too high of a standard to call people to because you standard to call people to because you standard to call people to because you want them to be better but you also want them to be better but you also want them to be better but you also don't want them to feel miserable all don't want them to feel miserable all don't want them to feel miserable all the time because they fall short of this the time because they fall short of this the time because they fall short of this almost impossible standard you set for almost impossible standard you set for almost impossible standard you set for them so I I just don't know what the them so I I just don't know what the them so I I just don't know what the youth ministry conversation looks like youth ministry conversation looks like youth ministry conversation looks like right now but I think that should be a right now but I think that should be a right now but I think that should be a really important part of that really important part of that really important part of that conversation is how much do we expect of conversation is how much do we expect of conversation is how much do we expect of our kids and how much is too much yeah our kids and how much is too much yeah our kids and how much is too much yeah we're living through this in real time we're living through this in real time we're living through this in real time uh I'm not a youth pastor but I am a uh I'm not a youth pastor but I am a uh I'm not a youth pastor but I am a pastor and so I empathize with the folks pastor and so I empathize with the folks pastor and so I empathize with the folks who are who are leading like the youth who are who are leading like the youth who are who are leading like the youth in our church and and we're going in our church and and we're going in our church and and we're going through this in real time in the sense through this in real time in the sense through this in real time in the sense that like when me and Brady were in high that like when me and Brady were in high that like when me and Brady were in high school marijuana was very illegal here school marijuana was very illegal here school marijuana was very illegal here and now for our high school students and now for our high school students and now for our high school students marijuana is very legal here and so marijuana is very legal here and so marijuana is very legal here and so coming up to I think it's 19 or whatever

coming up to I think it's 19 or whatever coming up to I think it's 19 or whatever same age as drinking like you can same age as drinking like you can same age as drinking like you can legally go and acquire marijuana and and legally go and acquire marijuana and and legally go and acquire marijuana and and so this is a a conversation that we so this is a a conversation that we so this is a a conversation that we didn't have to have as teenagers like didn't have to have as teenagers like didn't have to have as teenagers like and and as Christian teenagers is it is and and as Christian teenagers is it is and and as Christian teenagers is it is it holy is it appropriate to use this it holy is it appropriate to use this it holy is it appropriate to use this substance legally in the way that it is substance legally in the way that it is substance legally in the way that it is to like maybe have one beer have a glass to like maybe have one beer have a glass to like maybe have one beer have a glass of wine um so that's a brand new of wine um so that's a brand new of wine um so that's a brand new conversation that like we're having in conversation that like we're having in conversation that like we're having in real time right now and and you know real time right now and and you know real time right now and and you know Brady and I we have young kids we Brady and I we have young kids we Brady and I we have young kids we haven't kind of crossed that bridge yet haven't kind of crossed that bridge yet haven't kind of crossed that bridge yet um with a legal drug use with our kids um with a legal drug use with our kids um with a legal drug use with our kids but like surely that'll be a but like surely that'll be a but like surely that'll be a conversation and that's you know that's conversation and that's you know that's conversation and that's you know that's I I just I just kind of breezed over it I I just I just kind of breezed over it I I just I just kind of breezed over it quickly but that is that is the guiding quickly but that is that is the guiding quickly but that is that is the guiding question for like how me and my wife question for like how me and my wife question for like how me and my wife parent and how I live my own personal parent and how I live my own personal parent and how I live my own personal life is just asking my myself that life is just asking my myself that life is just asking my myself that question all the time is is this is this question all the time is is this is this question all the time is is this is this holy can I can I have this glass of wine holy can I can I have this glass of wine holy can I can I have this glass of wine in a holy way and so for me my personal in a holy way and so for me my personal in a holy way and so for me my personal conviction is yes for others it's no and conviction is yes for others it's no and conviction is yes for others it's no and that's like there's there's no right or that's like there's there's no right or that's like there's there's no right or wrong there um but we're asking brand wrong there um but we're asking brand wrong there um but we're asking brand new questions now that we we didn't have new questions now that we we didn't have new questions now that we we didn't have to ask or answer 10 or 15 years ago at to ask or answer 10 or 15 years ago at to ask or answer 10 or 15 years ago at least in this province um so yeah really least in this province um so yeah really least in this province um so yeah really interesting times that that we're living interesting times that that we're living interesting times that that we're living through and we can see that reflected in through and we can see that reflected in through and we can see that reflected in the data and Ryan I'm really looking the data and Ryan I'm really looking the data and Ryan I'm really looking forward to your next article that's forward to your next article that's forward to your next article that's surely going to be titled does going to surely going to be titled does going to surely going to be titled does going to church keep you from having premarital church keep you from having premarital church keep you from having premarital sex oh yeah no listen surely that yes no sex oh yeah no listen surely that yes no sex oh yeah no listen surely that yes no no no the article on Thursday that's no no the article on Thursday that's no no the article on Thursday that's actually going to run in two days from actually going to run in two days from actually going to run in two days from now when recording this is about now when recording this is about now when recording this is about marijuana usage among High School marijuana usage among High School marijuana usage among High School seniors because so many people asked me seniors because so many people asked me seniors because so many people asked me about it and I it took me forever to get about it and I it took me forever to get about it and I it took me forever to get the data right because it's there is a the data right because it's there is a the data right because it's there is a mess but it it it looks like the share mess but it it it looks like the share mess but it it it looks like the share of high school seniors who don't drink

of high school seniors who don't drink of high school seniors who don't drink don't smoke but have used marijuana in don't smoke but have used marijuana in don't smoke but have used marijuana in the last 30 days is gone from about 1% the last 30 days is gone from about 1% the last 30 days is gone from about 1% to about 4% over the last 45 years so to about 4% over the last 45 years so to about 4% over the last 45 years so it's not nothing but I will s I'll give it's not nothing but I will s I'll give it's not nothing but I will s I'll give you here's a little little preview you you here's a little little preview you you here's a little little preview you know what the percentage of kids who are know what the percentage of kids who are know what the percentage of kids who are straight edge are you know so straight straight edge are you know so straight straight edge are you know so straight edge is like not drink not smoke uh edge is like not drink not smoke uh edge is like not drink not smoke uh cigarettes or marijuana so the three cigarettes or marijuana so the three cigarettes or marijuana so the three things in the 1970s it was about 10% of things in the 1970s it was about 10% of things in the 1970s it was about 10% of high school seniors were straight edge high school seniors were straight edge high school seniors were straight edge based on that definition today it's based on that definition today it's based on that definition today it's almost 40% of high school seniors have almost 40% of high school seniors have almost 40% of high school seniors have not drank smoked or done drugs in the not drank smoked or done drugs in the not drank smoked or done drugs in the prior 30 days highest it's it's been in prior 30 days highest it's it's been in prior 30 days highest it's it's been in the last 45 years so again the safest the last 45 years so again the safest the last 45 years so again the safest generation in American history without a generation in American history without a generation in American history without a shadow of a doubt at least in the modern shadow of a doubt at least in the modern shadow of a doubt at least in the modern era in terms of not engaging in those in era in terms of not engaging in those in era in terms of not engaging in those in those three things okay so couple just those three things okay so couple just those three things okay so couple just we're shopping some headlines here for we're shopping some headlines here for we're shopping some headlines here for the marijuana one like marijuana use up the marijuana one like marijuana use up the marijuana one like marijuana use up 400% amongst youth right scary very good 400% amongst youth right scary very good 400% amongst youth right scary very good yes the relative change not not so much yes the relative change not not so much yes the relative change not not so much but this is an interesting one and I'm but this is an interesting one and I'm but this is an interesting one and I'm fascinated I picked these three articles fascinated I picked these three articles fascinated I picked these three articles um from Ryan because I'm fascinated by um from Ryan because I'm fascinated by um from Ryan because I'm fascinated by data that goes against kind of like what data that goes against kind of like what data that goes against kind of like what is expected um in the previous one about is expected um in the previous one about is expected um in the previous one about online church I can't tell you how many online church I can't tell you how many online church I can't tell you how many times I've been in a conference been on times I've been in a conference been on times I've been in a conference been on a podcast and and the the conversation a podcast and and the the conversation a podcast and and the the conversation has been like you know what we need to has been like you know what we need to has been like you know what we need to stop all this online Church stuff like stop all this online Church stuff like stop all this online Church stuff like in person is what matters and everyone's in person is what matters and everyone's in person is what matters and everyone's like yeah as if like it's this raly and like yeah as if like it's this raly and like yeah as if like it's this raly and cry against the norm when in reality cry against the norm when in reality cry against the norm when in reality like everyone agrees like no one is like everyone agrees like no one is like everyone agrees like no one is disagreeing with you we're all on board disagreeing with you we're all on board disagreeing with you we're all on board and the the same is kind of true um here

and the the same is kind of true um here and the the same is kind of true um here the common thing is social media ruins the common thing is social media ruins the common thing is social media ruins teens lives anxiety loneliness like I'm teens lives anxiety loneliness like I'm teens lives anxiety loneliness like I'm not here to dispute any of that but then not here to dispute any of that but then not here to dispute any of that but then what would equally be a true headline what would equally be a true headline what would equally be a true headline and here's like you know cor correlation and here's like you know cor correlation and here's like you know cor correlation to causation like social media creates to causation like social media creates to causation like social media creates safest generation in 50 years drinking safest generation in 50 years drinking safest generation in 50 years drinking stopped smoking stopped drug use gone stopped smoking stopped drug use gone stopped smoking stopped drug use gone thank you Facebook like that's that's thank you Facebook like that's that's thank you Facebook like that's that's just as true right like well I wrote a just as true right like well I wrote a just as true right like well I wrote a post called people aren't having sex post called people aren't having sex post called people aren't having sex anymore it's one most popular post ever anymore it's one most popular post ever anymore it's one most popular post ever if you look at the data people are if you look at the data people are if you look at the data people are having sex and by the way married people having sex and by the way married people having sex and by the way married people are having sex less today than they had are having sex less today than they had are having sex less today than they had it in that late 1980s like social media it in that late 1980s like social media it in that late 1980s like social media has basically given us something to has basically given us something to has basically given us something to entertain ourselves so we don't do entertain ourselves so we don't do entertain ourselves so we don't do anything else we don't have sex we don't anything else we don't have sex we don't anything else we don't have sex we don't drink we don't smoke we don't do drugs drink we don't smoke we don't do drugs drink we don't smoke we don't do drugs so I guess in some ways you can say well so I guess in some ways you can say well so I guess in some ways you can say well that's a good thing like I I really do that's a good thing like I I really do that's a good thing like I I really do think like and we and we're seeing by think like and we and we're seeing by think like and we and we're seeing by the why the pendulum swing on social the why the pendulum swing on social the why the pendulum swing on social media you're seeing a lot of school media you're seeing a lot of school media you're seeing a lot of school districts now in the states banning cell districts now in the states banning cell districts now in the states banning cell phone use in schools which I think think phone use in schools which I think think phone use in schools which I think think we're all coming to the realization of we're all coming to the realization of we're all coming to the realization of like are those things good the kids like are those things good the kids like are those things good the kids aren't smoking and drinking probably on aren't smoking and drinking probably on aren't smoking and drinking probably on balance yes but there's a lot of balance yes but there's a lot of balance yes but there's a lot of downside wris that's that's you know downside wris that's that's you know downside wris that's that's you know like objectively bad anxiety loneliness like objectively bad anxiety loneliness like objectively bad anxiety loneliness depression an you know all those things depression an you know all those things depression an you know all those things are way way bad and would we take are way way bad and would we take are way way bad and would we take drinking and smoking coming back a drinking and smoking coming back a drinking and smoking coming back a little bit to get rid of a lot of the little bit to get rid of a lot of the little bit to get rid of a lot of the anxiety and anxiety and anxiety and isolation I think I would personally isolation I think I would personally isolation I think I would personally like if the kids got together once a like if the kids got together once a like if the kids got together once a month and you know drank a few be years month and you know drank a few be years month and you know drank a few be years but at least hung out with each other

but at least hung out with each other but at least hung out with each other that's not a bad outcome in my world as that's not a bad outcome in my world as that's not a bad outcome in my world as long as they do it responsibly obviously long as they do it responsibly obviously long as they do it responsibly obviously cuz right now that's not happening cuz right now that's not happening cuz right now that's not happening they're just hanging on their phones and they're just hanging on their phones and they're just hanging on their phones and they living the whole world on Snapchat they living the whole world on Snapchat they living the whole world on Snapchat and it's it's it's killing them and it's it's it's killing them and it's it's it's killing them psychologically so I I think we're going psychologically so I I think we're going psychologically so I I think we're going to see what's fascinating is we're to see what's fascinating is we're to see what's fascinating is we're running an experiment right here in real running an experiment right here in real running an experiment right here in real time you know in the general population time you know in the general population time you know in the general population and we're going to see how it shakes out and we're going to see how it shakes out and we're going to see how it shakes out with young people and hopefully what we with young people and hopefully what we with young people and hopefully what we see is we kind of find an uh an see is we kind of find an uh an see is we kind of find an uh an equilibrium right we you know we turn equilibrium right we you know we turn equilibrium right we you know we turn down the anxiety depression and we turn down the anxiety depression and we turn down the anxiety depression and we turn up the drinking smoking up a little bit up the drinking smoking up a little bit up the drinking smoking up a little bit and the sex stuff a little bit where we and the sex stuff a little bit where we and the sex stuff a little bit where we can live with both and go okay this can live with both and go okay this can live with both and go okay this balance is a much better future for balance is a much better future for balance is a much better future for young people than what we have right now young people than what we have right now young people than what we have right now well and you mentioned in in one of well and you mentioned in in one of well and you mentioned in in one of these three articles I forget which one these three articles I forget which one these three articles I forget which one you mentioned Jonathan Height's book uh you mentioned Jonathan Height's book uh you mentioned Jonathan Height's book uh the anxious generation and we don't need the anxious generation and we don't need the anxious generation and we don't need to delve too far into it right now but to delve too far into it right now but to delve too far into it right now but but you're painting a picture of a new but you're painting a picture of a new but you're painting a picture of a new Vice uh a new means of entertainment Vice uh a new means of entertainment Vice uh a new means of entertainment that has really overtaken some of the that has really overtaken some of the that has really overtaken some of the more more popular vices sex drinking more more popular vices sex drinking more more popular vices sex drinking drugs smoking drugs smoking drugs smoking and so yeah maybe youth pastors aren't and so yeah maybe youth pastors aren't and so yeah maybe youth pastors aren't up against like trying to disciple their up against like trying to disciple their up against like trying to disciple their youth on like what their relationship youth on like what their relationship youth on like what their relationship with alcohol is according to the data with alcohol is according to the data with alcohol is according to the data but we surely are up against discipling but we surely are up against discipling but we surely are up against discipling our youth with how to engage with these our youth with how to engage with these our youth with how to engage with these devices that's like that is the thing devices that's like that is the thing devices that's like that is the thing that like you've said a few times here that like you've said a few times here that like you've said a few times here Ryan that is the experiment that is Ryan that is the experiment that is Ryan that is the experiment that is unfolding in real time and uh and the unfolding in real time and uh and the unfolding in real time and uh and the data supports that as well so um yeah I data supports that as well so um yeah I data supports that as well so um yeah I just I'm I'm so grateful to like because just I'm I'm so grateful to like because just I'm I'm so grateful to like because Brady and I are are our minds kind of Brady and I are are our minds kind of Brady and I are are our minds kind of just operate the same way when it comes just operate the same way when it comes just operate the same way when it comes to to to um yeah just how how we approach things

um yeah just how how we approach things um yeah just how how we approach things in life and and rooting it in like in life and and rooting it in like in life and and rooting it in like empirical data so like being able to empirical data so like being able to empirical data so like being able to wrestle with these real conversations wrestle with these real conversations wrestle with these real conversations about online church and drinking and and about online church and drinking and and about online church and drinking and and whatever um but to be able to Anchor whatever um but to be able to Anchor whatever um but to be able to Anchor them in data to give us insight into how them in data to give us insight into how them in data to give us insight into how we make decisions and what we're going we make decisions and what we're going we make decisions and what we're going to talk about next um yeah just just to talk about next um yeah just just to talk about next um yeah just just really grateful for that but we got one really grateful for that but we got one really grateful for that but we got one more don't we well if I could just say more don't we well if I could just say more don't we well if I could just say one more thing you know like we at the one more thing you know like we at the one more thing you know like we at the beginning of each show in the intro beginning of each show in the intro beginning of each show in the intro biggest communication shift in 500 years biggest communication shift in 500 years biggest communication shift in 500 years we think about that in to how we're we think about that in to how we're we think about that in to how we're going to take our uh Christian worldview going to take our uh Christian worldview going to take our uh Christian worldview and and share it with the world but and and share it with the world but and and share it with the world but what's also true is that like we are what's also true is that like we are what's also true is that like we are part of this experiment and uh you know part of this experiment and uh you know part of this experiment and uh you know I I I saw uh a skit today on social and I I I saw uh a skit today on social and I I I saw uh a skit today on social and it was like AI solves cancer and I said it was like AI solves cancer and I said it was like AI solves cancer and I said to my wife I was eating lunch and I said to my wife I was eating lunch and I said to my wife I was eating lunch and I said you know that might I wonder if that you know that might I wonder if that you know that might I wonder if that might not be true for us but I hope it's might not be true for us but I hope it's might not be true for us but I hope it's true for like the kids like I feel like true for like the kids like I feel like true for like the kids like I feel like there's so much that we don't know right there's so much that we don't know right there's so much that we don't know right now about the human body and like now about the human body and like now about the human body and like because we're all part of this because we're all part of this because we're all part of this experiment and now we've added devices experiment and now we've added devices experiment and now we've added devices to it and how much that's going to to it and how much that's going to to it and how much that's going to change everything um and so I always change everything um and so I always change everything um and so I always like what you say like how can we make like what you say like how can we make like what you say like how can we make the best next holy choice in front of us the best next holy choice in front of us the best next holy choice in front of us and it sounds like yes our generation is and it sounds like yes our generation is and it sounds like yes our generation is not going to have lung cancer and our not going to have lung cancer and our not going to have lung cancer and our cardiovascular disease rates might go cardiovascular disease rates might go cardiovascular disease rates might go down but we're just going to have no fun down but we're just going to have no fun down but we're just going to have no fun and we'll be miserable and we'll have to and we'll be miserable and we'll have to and we'll be miserable and we'll have to live longer because of it yeah so live longer because of it yeah so live longer because of it yeah so terrible score I guess that might be the terrible score I guess that might be the terrible score I guess that might be the outcome we live to 110 but we hate every outcome we live to 110 but we hate every outcome we live to 110 but we hate every minute of it like that's yeah we're all minute of it like that's yeah we're all minute of it like that's yeah we're all going to in our old age we're going to going to in our old age we're going to going to in our old age we're going to pick up drinking and smoking then you pick up drinking and smoking then you pick up drinking and smoking then you know what had enough pass the blood blow

know what had enough pass the blood blow know what had enough pass the blood blow it out I'm 85 it ain't getting better it out I'm 85 it ain't getting better it out I'm 85 it ain't getting better from here let's let's roll come on my from here let's let's roll come on my from here let's let's roll come on my gosh okay let's put this behind us thank gosh okay let's put this behind us thank gosh okay let's put this behind us thank God and go on to the third article final God and go on to the third article final God and go on to the third article final one here are women more spiritual and one here are women more spiritual and one here are women more spiritual and men more religious is the title graphs men more religious is the title graphs men more religious is the title graphs about religion um we're all very about religion um we're all very about religion um we're all very familiar with that I'm spiritual not familiar with that I'm spiritual not familiar with that I'm spiritual not religious remark I think we all can religious remark I think we all can religious remark I think we all can understand as we deal with data relative understand as we deal with data relative understand as we deal with data relative to Faith is that faith by nature is not to Faith is that faith by nature is not to Faith is that faith by nature is not easy to quantify and what you say at the easy to quantify and what you say at the easy to quantify and what you say at the beginning of this article is that hey beginning of this article is that hey beginning of this article is that hey there was this new survey by uh Fetzer there was this new survey by uh Fetzer there was this new survey by uh Fetzer Institute that asked questions about Institute that asked questions about Institute that asked questions about faith differently and that yielded some faith differently and that yielded some faith differently and that yielded some interesting uh responses so what was interesting uh responses so what was interesting uh responses so what was different about the survey that inspired different about the survey that inspired different about the survey that inspired this article well I'll tell you this this article well I'll tell you this this article well I'll tell you this this really cool part of the survey is this really cool part of the survey is this really cool part of the survey is they asked people to draw a picture of they asked people to draw a picture of they asked people to draw a picture of spirituality I've never seen that on us spirituality I've never seen that on us spirituality I've never seen that on us like literally draw a picture and you like literally draw a picture and you like literally draw a picture and you can like I was at a conference and they can like I was at a conference and they can like I was at a conference and they showed me a bunch of these pictures I showed me a bunch of these pictures I showed me a bunch of these pictures I was like what is the world is it all was like what is the world is it all was like what is the world is it all look very basic like crayons and stuff look very basic like crayons and stuff look very basic like crayons and stuff like that but you know what the most like that but you know what the most like that but you know what the most common image was for spirituality was a common image was for spirituality was a common image was for spirituality was a mountain I think that's really mountain I think that's really mountain I think that's really interesting in a whole bunch I think I'm interesting in a whole bunch I think I'm interesting in a whole bunch I think I'm still thinking about what that means still thinking about what that means still thinking about what that means like you know because obviously in like you know because obviously in like you know because obviously in Christianity mountains are incredibly Christianity mountains are incredibly Christianity mountains are incredibly important in the old and new testate but important in the old and new testate but important in the old and new testate but like for non non-religious people why like for non non-religious people why like for non non-religious people why are mountains still seen as spiritual I are mountains still seen as spiritual I are mountains still seen as spiritual I don't have a great answer for that maybe don't have a great answer for that maybe don't have a great answer for that maybe it's still that religious imprinting you it's still that religious imprinting you it's still that religious imprinting you know like that residue still hanging know like that residue still hanging know like that residue still hanging around but it's also probably easier to around but it's also probably easier to around but it's also probably easier to draw a mountain then draw like you know draw a mountain then draw like you know draw a mountain then draw like you know like a force or a spirit or whatever so

like a force or a spirit or whatever so like a force or a spirit or whatever so anyway what can I draw what can I draw anyway what can I draw what can I draw anyway what can I draw what can I draw not what would I like to draw can can AI not what would I like to draw can can AI not what would I like to draw can can AI draw it for me that would be fantastic I draw it for me that would be fantastic I draw it for me that would be fantastic I can draw that can draw that can draw that 3DS from from the late 9s early 2000s 3DS from from the late 9s early 2000s 3DS from from the late 9s early 2000s absolutely when you were rolling your absolutely when you were rolling your absolutely when you were rolling your blunts you drew the 3DS that's what you blunts you drew the 3DS that's what you blunts you drew the 3DS that's what you did on your paper at the same time yeah did on your paper at the same time yeah did on your paper at the same time yeah there it is we're getting insed you know there it is we're getting insed you know there it is we're getting insed you know who couldn't draw that ass me I cannot who couldn't draw that ass me I cannot who couldn't draw that ass me I cannot draw that ass I'll tell you that much draw that ass I'll tell you that much draw that ass I'll tell you that much well so what's cool about this study is well so what's cool about this study is well so what's cool about this study is like Fetzer is really interested in like like Fetzer is really interested in like like Fetzer is really interested in like new age spirituality stuff to try to new age spirituality stuff to try to new age spirituality stuff to try to like figure out how religion and like figure out how religion and like figure out how religion and spirituality are evolving so it asks all spirituality are evolving so it asks all spirituality are evolving so it asks all kinds of like off the beaten path kinds of like off the beaten path kinds of like off the beaten path questions about spirituality you would questions about spirituality you would questions about spirituality you would not see like in a mainstream survey not see like in a mainstream survey not see like in a mainstream survey because they're really just focused on because they're really just focused on because they're really just focused on this like niche of a niche and what I this like niche of a niche and what I this like niche of a niche and what I really wanted someone in my comments one really wanted someone in my comments one really wanted someone in my comments one time was like don't you think that women time was like don't you think that women time was like don't you think that women are more spiritual and men are more are more spiritual and men are more are more spiritual and men are more religious because they like do women are religious because they like do women are religious because they like do women are like all into crystals and Tarot cards like all into crystals and Tarot cards like all into crystals and Tarot cards and horoscopes and astrology and all and horoscopes and astrology and all and horoscopes and astrology and all that stuff and I was like yeah that kind that stuff and I was like yeah that kind that stuff and I was like yeah that kind of seemed seems you know like it seems of seemed seems you know like it seems of seemed seems you know like it seems like you're probably right let's figure like you're probably right let's figure like you're probably right let's figure out if you're right or not so this feter out if you're right or not so this feter out if you're right or not so this feter day is actually really cool cuz it gets day is actually really cool cuz it gets day is actually really cool cuz it gets into all that nichy stuff about into all that nichy stuff about into all that nichy stuff about spirituality one thing I want to point spirituality one thing I want to point spirituality one thing I want to point out is women are way more likely to out is women are way more likely to out is women are way more likely to believe in God without any doubts believe in God without any doubts believe in God without any doubts compared to men 55% of women say they compared to men 55% of women say they compared to men 55% of women say they believe in God without any doubts it's believe in God without any doubts it's believe in God without any doubts it's only 43% of men like that's a big gap only 43% of men like that's a big gap only 43% of men like that's a big gap there men are significantly more likely there men are significantly more likely there men are significantly more likely they're twice as likely to say they they're twice as likely to say they they're twice as likely to say they don't believe in God 9% versus 4% and don't believe in God 9% versus 4% and don't believe in God 9% versus 4% and Five Points more likely to say they Five Points more likely to say they Five Points more likely to say they believe in some higher power 15% versus believe in some higher power 15% versus believe in some higher power 15% versus 10% but if you look at belief measures

10% but if you look at belief measures 10% but if you look at belief measures like men score way lower in their belief like men score way lower in their belief like men score way lower in their belief in a higher power or God compared to in a higher power or God compared to in a higher power or God compared to women do which I think is really women do which I think is really women do which I think is really interesting you know like cuz cuz women interesting you know like cuz cuz women interesting you know like cuz cuz women we talk about spirituality spirituality we talk about spirituality spirituality we talk about spirituality spirituality tends to be more amorphous like it's not tends to be more amorphous like it's not tends to be more amorphous like it's not I don't believe in God I believe in the I don't believe in God I believe in the I don't believe in God I believe in the spirit or the Divine or the higher power spirit or the Divine or the higher power spirit or the Divine or the higher power or whatever but in this question at or whatever but in this question at or whatever but in this question at least pretty clearly looks like women least pretty clearly looks like women least pretty clearly looks like women have a much more certain belief in God have a much more certain belief in God have a much more certain belief in God uh than uh than uh than I'm just like I I've been ruminating on I'm just like I I've been ruminating on I'm just like I I've been ruminating on this ever since I read the article this ever since I read the article this ever since I read the article because like without getting into um you because like without getting into um you because like without getting into um you know at at the risk of becoming too know at at the risk of becoming too know at at the risk of becoming too binary in like um traditional gender binary in like um traditional gender binary in like um traditional gender rules or whatever like I'm just I'm I rules or whatever like I'm just I'm I rules or whatever like I'm just I'm I was reflecting on this wondering like was reflecting on this wondering like was reflecting on this wondering like what can we what can we conclude from what can we what can we conclude from what can we what can we conclude from this um and I was I was reminded of the this um and I was I was reminded of the this um and I was I was reminded of the gospels and how repeated ly in the gospels and how repeated ly in the gospels and how repeated ly in the gospel stories when the men had this gospel stories when the men had this gospel stories when the men had this habit of like fleeing so whether it was habit of like fleeing so whether it was habit of like fleeing so whether it was Peter or Judas or whoever else they just Peter or Judas or whoever else they just Peter or Judas or whoever else they just kind of scattered when things got tough kind of scattered when things got tough kind of scattered when things got tough the women always just happen to like the women always just happen to like the women always just happen to like happen to to stick around whether it was happen to to stick around whether it was happen to to stick around whether it was at the foot of the cross or in the at the foot of the cross or in the at the foot of the cross or in the garden uh they were entrusted with the garden uh they were entrusted with the garden uh they were entrusted with the first word of the resurrection and so first word of the resurrection and so first word of the resurrection and so like there certainly is something to like there certainly is something to like there certainly is something to that and what struck me um in this that and what struck me um in this that and what struck me um in this article and and the many graphs in this article and and the many graphs in this article and and the many graphs in this article is that like it's conclusive article is that like it's conclusive article is that like it's conclusive like almost if not among every point of like almost if not among every point of like almost if not among every point of data it was like conclusive women are

data it was like conclusive women are data it was like conclusive women are just more spiritual than men across like just more spiritual than men across like just more spiritual than men across like just about every Point how about this to just about every Point how about this to just about every Point how about this to what extent do you feel connected to a what extent do you feel connected to a what extent do you feel connected to a higher power 40% of women said highly higher power 40% of women said highly higher power 40% of women said highly connected it was only 26% of men said connected it was only 26% of men said connected it was only 26% of men said highly connected meanwhile 23% of men highly connected meanwhile 23% of men highly connected meanwhile 23% of men said they're not at all connected to a said they're not at all connected to a said they're not at all connected to a higher power compared to only 12% of higher power compared to only 12% of higher power compared to only 12% of women so men were twice as likely to say women so men were twice as likely to say women so men were twice as likely to say they're not at all connected to a higher they're not at all connected to a higher they're not at all connected to a higher power compared to women and then women power compared to women and then women power compared to women and then women are significantly more likely so they're are significantly more likely so they're are significantly more likely so they're very connected so like you look at that very connected so like you look at that very connected so like you look at that those two pieces to date it together and those two pieces to date it together and those two pieces to date it together and go good gravy man like what's going on go good gravy man like what's going on go good gravy man like what's going on with men here they they have a a much with men here they they have a a much with men here they they have a a much more higher doubt right and then they more higher doubt right and then they more higher doubt right and then they also don't even feel connected it's like also don't even feel connected it's like also don't even feel connected it's like they they're sort of like closed off they they're sort of like closed off they they're sort of like closed off spiritually in in some ways that I don't spiritually in in some ways that I don't spiritually in in some ways that I don't really like I think I was when I think really like I think I was when I think really like I think I was when I think about gender and religion I always think about gender and religion I always think about gender and religion I always think of Mark Driscoll I don't know why cuz I of Mark Driscoll I don't know why cuz I of Mark Driscoll I don't know why cuz I probably grew up in the 1990s and the probably grew up in the 1990s and the probably grew up in the 1990s and the dude was talking about like men grow up dude was talking about like men grow up dude was talking about like men grow up the whole time and how they were the the whole time and how they were the the whole time and how they were the ones who are being like spiritually ones who are being like spiritually ones who are being like spiritually impotent right who are not like really impotent right who are not like really impotent right who are not like really connecting to the church and all those connecting to the church and all those connecting to the church and all those things and like I don't whatever Mark things and like I don't whatever Mark things and like I don't whatever Mark Drisco saw in the 1990s is definitely Drisco saw in the 1990s is definitely Drisco saw in the 1990s is definitely evident in the data you know 15 years evident in the data you know 15 years evident in the data you know 15 years down the line because it just it feels down the line because it just it feels down the line because it just it feels like men are like that religion I feel like men are like that religion I feel like men are like that religion I feel like when you when I look at this data like when you when I look at this data like when you when I look at this data what I the sense I get is what men say what I the sense I get is what men say what I the sense I get is what men say that religion's women's stuff like that religion's women's stuff like that religion's women's stuff like that's a woman's area of life and I'm that's a woman's area of life and I'm that's a woman's area of life and I'm not going to deeply connect to that not going to deeply connect to that not going to deeply connect to that either spiritually or religiously by the either spiritually or religiously by the either spiritually or religiously by the way like the whole thought the conceit

way like the whole thought the conceit way like the whole thought the conceit of the whole piece was like women are of the whole piece was like women are of the whole piece was like women are more spiritual and men are more more spiritual and men are more more spiritual and men are more religious but amongst women 11% of them religious but amongst women 11% of them religious but amongst women 11% of them say they're very spiritual and very say they're very spiritual and very say they're very spiritual and very religious it's only 6% of men say religious it's only 6% of men say religious it's only 6% of men say they're very spiritual and very they're very spiritual and very they're very spiritual and very religious men 177% said they're not at religious men 177% said they're not at religious men 177% said they're not at all spiritual or religious amongst women all spiritual or religious amongst women all spiritual or religious amongst women it's only 7% so like you can't there's it's only 7% so like you can't there's it's only 7% so like you can't there's it's almost impossible to look at this it's almost impossible to look at this it's almost impossible to look at this data and think that there's men are more data and think that there's men are more data and think that there's men are more religious they're not they're actually religious they're not they're actually religious they're not they're actually less religious and they're less less religious and they're less less religious and they're less spiritual than women are they're just spiritual than women are they're just spiritual than women are they're just really it's like it's like this is an really it's like it's like this is an really it's like it's like this is an arena where women dominate women rule arena where women dominate women rule arena where women dominate women rule women have all the confidence and all women have all the confidence and all women have all the confidence and all the belief and all the connection and the belief and all the connection and the belief and all the connection and men are just sort of like sitting on the men are just sort of like sitting on the men are just sort of like sitting on the sidelines and drifting away well and I'm sidelines and drifting away well and I'm sidelines and drifting away well and I'm just going to go ahead and put my pastor just going to go ahead and put my pastor just going to go ahead and put my pastor hat on and say that like what this says hat on and say that like what this says hat on and say that like what this says to me is that we have a lot of work to to me is that we have a lot of work to to me is that we have a lot of work to do we have a lot to learn from women do we have a lot to learn from women do we have a lot to learn from women first and formost foremost on their first and formost foremost on their first and formost foremost on their vulnerability their um sense of emotion vulnerability their um sense of emotion vulnerability their um sense of emotion their ability to trust and have faith um their ability to trust and have faith um their ability to trust and have faith um their capacity to to love and be loved their capacity to to love and be loved their capacity to to love and be loved to take care and be taken care of we to take care and be taken care of we to take care and be taken care of we have a lot to learn from women and we have a lot to learn from women and we have a lot to learn from women and we have a lot of work to do in the arena of have a lot of work to do in the arena of have a lot of work to do in the arena of how we talk to men and amongst men about how we talk to men and amongst men about how we talk to men and amongst men about the things of Faith because the data the things of Faith because the data the things of Faith because the data seems to suggest that the way we''ve seems to suggest that the way we''ve seems to suggest that the way we''ve been talking to men about faith in the been talking to men about faith in the been talking to men about faith in the language of I don't language of I don't language of I don't know guns and barbecues like that is not

know guns and barbecues like that is not know guns and barbecues like that is not exactly working when women are doing exactly working when women are doing exactly working when women are doing Women's Conference talking about Gardens Women's Conference talking about Gardens Women's Conference talking about Gardens and flowers and the Earth and I don't and flowers and the Earth and I don't and flowers and the Earth and I don't know just from the way I interpret the know just from the way I interpret the know just from the way I interpret the Gospel of Jesus and the entire story of Gospel of Jesus and the entire story of Gospel of Jesus and the entire story of of the Gospel it starts in a garden and of the Gospel it starts in a garden and of the Gospel it starts in a garden and ends in a garden so the women really ends in a garden so the women really ends in a garden so the women really seem to be on to something here and seem to be on to something here and seem to be on to something here and that's being again that's being that's being again that's being that's being again that's being reflected the data like they are are reflected the data like they are are reflected the data like they are are much more in relationship with a Divine much more in relationship with a Divine much more in relationship with a Divine higher power than men are and that's higher power than men are and that's higher power than men are and that's that's a yellow flag if not a red one that's a yellow flag if not a red one that's a yellow flag if not a red one for church leaders and how we yeah how for church leaders and how we yeah how for church leaders and how we yeah how how we converse about faith uh amongst how we converse about faith uh amongst how we converse about faith uh amongst gendered people so what's so interesting gendered people so what's so interesting gendered people so what's so interesting is like the caricature version of is like the caricature version of is like the caricature version of talking about faith with men is you know talking about faith with men is you know talking about faith with men is you know guns and guns and guns and brisket but Ryan brought up D brisket but Ryan brought up D brisket but Ryan brought up D and I remember before all of the bad and I remember before all of the bad and I remember before all of the bad that happened with Mars Hill and that happened with Mars Hill and that happened with Mars Hill and Driscoll I was a 19-year-old in my Gap Driscoll I was a 19-year-old in my Gap Driscoll I was a 19-year-old in my Gap year between high school and bible year between high school and bible year between high school and bible college and I listened to Mark Driscoll college and I listened to Mark Driscoll college and I listened to Mark Driscoll eight hours a day because I was working eight hours a day because I was working eight hours a day because I was working construction so I just want you to like construction so I just want you to like construction so I just want you to like imagine like this was just like about as imagine like this was just like about as imagine like this was just like about as as man as it can get so all day I'm as man as it can get so all day I'm as man as it can get so all day I'm hauling Lumber and like just sweating hauling Lumber and like just sweating hauling Lumber and like just sweating with my shirt off and I I have a perfect with my shirt off and I I have a perfect with my shirt off and I I have a perfect tan and all I'm doing is listening to tan and all I'm doing is listening to tan and all I'm doing is listening to Mark Driscoll pre for 90 minutes at a Mark Driscoll pre for 90 minutes at a Mark Driscoll pre for 90 minutes at a time per sermon and every sermon is time per sermon and every sermon is time per sermon and every sermon is extremely studious it's like really extremely studious it's like really extremely studious it's like really dense and he keeps calling men to be

dense and he keeps calling men to be dense and he keeps calling men to be better and what like that resonated with better and what like that resonated with better and what like that resonated with me like I'm a young man and he's like be me like I'm a young man and he's like be me like I'm a young man and he's like be better and I'm like okay I love that better and I'm like okay I love that better and I'm like okay I love that thank you like that's what I need to thank you like that's what I need to thank you like that's what I need to hear right now and then of course uh it hear right now and then of course uh it hear right now and then of course uh it perhaps went a bit too far into some perhaps went a bit too far into some perhaps went a bit too far into some really toxic territory but like Mark really toxic territory but like Mark really toxic territory but like Mark drisle and everyone that was a part of drisle and everyone that was a part of drisle and everyone that was a part of Mars Hill who now looks back like I Mars Hill who now looks back like I Mars Hill who now looks back like I don't why were we there the ones that don't why were we there the ones that don't why were we there the ones that like remember why is like because were like remember why is like because were like remember why is like because were like I was being called into something like I was being called into something like I was being called into something in the world of faith that I had never in the world of faith that I had never in the world of faith that I had never really experienced in church before and really experienced in church before and really experienced in church before and it resonated with me and it was men for it resonated with me and it was men for it resonated with me and it was men for the most part it resonated with me in the most part it resonated with me in the most part it resonated with me in ways that I had never really resonated ways that I had never really resonated ways that I had never really resonated with faith before I I is there something with faith before I I is there something with faith before I I is there something there that we can pull that's that's there that we can pull that's that's there that we can pull that's that's positive yeah yeah I just think that uh positive yeah yeah I just think that uh positive yeah yeah I just think that uh Driscoll is the you know what the Driscoll is the you know what the Driscoll is the you know what the evolution of Driscoll is it's Joe Rogan evolution of Driscoll is it's Joe Rogan evolution of Driscoll is it's Joe Rogan like I think like whatever Driscoll and like I think like whatever Driscoll and like I think like whatever Driscoll and and Jordan Peterson like whatever that and Jordan Peterson like whatever that and Jordan Peterson like whatever that guy did has being like there's a need in guy did has being like there's a need in guy did has being like there's a need in the blogosphere ecosphere podcast the blogosphere ecosphere podcast the blogosphere ecosphere podcast asphere for that kind of like men asphere for that kind of like men asphere for that kind of like men yelling at other men telling them to be yelling at other men telling them to be yelling at other men telling them to be better thing and I think when Driscoll better thing and I think when Driscoll better thing and I think when Driscoll went away that whole sentiment didn't go went away that whole sentiment didn't go went away that whole sentiment didn't go away it just sort of evolved into a away it just sort of evolved into a away it just sort of evolved into a nonreligious space and actually I think nonreligious space and actually I think nonreligious space and actually I think in some ways a worse space like the the in some ways a worse space like the the in some ways a worse space like the the Rogan phenomenon is like a weird that Rogan phenomenon is like a weird that Rogan phenomenon is like a weird that dude is the most listened to podcast in dude is the most listened to podcast in dude is the most listened to podcast in America guys like you cannot tell me America guys like you cannot tell me America guys like you cannot tell me there's not a need for men to hear men there's not a need for men to hear men there's not a need for men to hear men having conversations at that level that having conversations at that level that having conversations at that level that might be a little offensive and might be might be a little offensive and might be might be a little offensive and might be a little tangential and might be a a little tangential and might be a a little tangential and might be a little weird at times and offensive at little weird at times and offensive at little weird at times and offensive at times men want to have those kind of

times men want to have those kind of times men want to have those kind of conversations it's just the church kind conversations it's just the church kind conversations it's just the church kind of sucks at having those kind of kind of of sucks at having those kind of kind of of sucks at having those kind of kind of conversations I don't and I don't even conversations I don't and I don't even conversations I don't and I don't even think it's by the way from the pulpit is think it's by the way from the pulpit is think it's by the way from the pulpit is probably not the most appropriate way to probably not the most appropriate way to probably not the most appropriate way to have those conversations either like I have those conversations either like I have those conversations either like I think you need to have it some of it for think you need to have it some of it for think you need to have it some of it for sure but I think it needs to happen in sure but I think it needs to happen in sure but I think it needs to happen in the hallways and in the Sunday School the hallways and in the Sunday School the hallways and in the Sunday School classes and in you know the parking lot classes and in you know the parking lot classes and in you know the parking lot on the way out you know having on the way out you know having on the way out you know having conversations with men especially men conversations with men especially men conversations with men especially men who are like in their 30s and 40s who who are like in their 30s and 40s who who are like in their 30s and 40s who are raising kids who don't really get to are raising kids who don't really get to are raising kids who don't really get to talk to other men about raising kids who talk to other men about raising kids who talk to other men about raising kids who have the same worldview that they do and have the same worldview that they do and have the same worldview that they do and the same values that they do I think the same values that they do I think the same values that they do I think that's the value that to go back to call that's the value that to go back to call that's the value that to go back to call back to the virtual church thing you back to the virtual church thing you back to the virtual church thing you don't get that with virtual Church by don't get that with virtual Church by don't get that with virtual Church by the way you know what I mean men are not the way you know what I mean men are not the way you know what I mean men are not you're not hanging out in the breakout you're not hanging out in the breakout you're not hanging out in the breakout rooms other men on Zoom during online rooms other men on Zoom during online rooms other men on Zoom during online church and that's what men need to do church and that's what men need to do church and that's what men need to do more often than not is just sit in the more often than not is just sit in the more often than not is just sit in the parking lot with their buddy on the way parking lot with their buddy on the way parking lot with their buddy on the way out and talk for 20 minutes before you out and talk for 20 minutes before you out and talk for 20 minutes before you get in your car and drive away just have get in your car and drive away just have get in your car and drive away just have a touch base about what it means to be a a touch base about what it means to be a a touch base about what it means to be a man in 2024 with changing gender roles man in 2024 with changing gender roles man in 2024 with changing gender roles and consent and raising kids and Mas and consent and raising kids and Mas and consent and raising kids and Mas what toxic masculinity is versus what toxic masculinity is versus what toxic masculinity is versus positive masculinity I just don't know positive masculinity I just don't know positive masculinity I just don't know where we're getting those those messages where we're getting those those messages where we're getting those those messages in that's not Joe Rogan which is not in that's not Joe Rogan which is not in that's not Joe Rogan which is not always a positive message I don't think always a positive message I don't think always a positive message I don't think you know we kind of made fun of the you know we kind of made fun of the you know we kind of made fun of the caricature like guns and barbecue but caricature like guns and barbecue but caricature like guns and barbecue but just to pull back the curtain fully here just to pull back the curtain fully here just to pull back the curtain fully here uh on Saturday uh myself and Alex along uh on Saturday uh myself and Alex along uh on Saturday uh myself and Alex along with two of our buddies that also work with two of our buddies that also work with two of our buddies that also work here at the company so four husbands here at the company so four husbands here at the company so four husbands four fathers we all got together for four fathers we all got together for four fathers we all got together for some bro time we went into Toronto we some bro time we went into Toronto we some bro time we went into Toronto we went to the city and we had a great meal

went to the city and we had a great meal went to the city and we had a great meal together and spoiler alert it was all together and spoiler alert it was all together and spoiler alert it was all meat it was all it was it was called the meat it was all it was it was called the meat it was all it was it was called the big ass board was the name on the actual big ass board was the name on the actual big ass board was the name on the actual like yeah we'll get that you bring on a like yeah we'll get that you bring on a like yeah we'll get that you bring on a giant bunch of meat on a wooden thing giant bunch of meat on a wooden thing giant bunch of meat on a wooden thing and I had a beer I had a light beer and and I had a beer I had a light beer and and I had a beer I had a light beer and then we went to see WWE money in the then we went to see WWE money in the then we went to see WWE money in the bank and watched men fall through tables bank and watched men fall through tables bank and watched men fall through tables from ladders and so maybe we are the from ladders and so maybe we are the from ladders and so maybe we are the caricatures you know we we we we pretend caricatures you know we we we we pretend caricatures you know we we we we pretend to think of ourselves as we're elevated to think of ourselves as we're elevated to think of ourselves as we're elevated you know in Canada we don't really have you know in Canada we don't really have you know in Canada we don't really have guns so that's that's you know no guns so that's that's you know no guns so that's that's you know no instead we watch men go through tables instead we watch men go through tables instead we watch men go through tables um in their trunks so that's what um in their trunks so that's what um in their trunks so that's what happened to us I my final question here happened to us I my final question here happened to us I my final question here Ryan is like is there any insight here Ryan is like is there any insight here Ryan is like is there any insight here on what's the Chicken and the Egg on what's the Chicken and the Egg on what's the Chicken and the Egg because what we've heard from men for because what we've heard from men for because what we've heard from men for many years in church is like I go to many years in church is like I go to many years in church is like I go to church and it's like it's a really church and it's like it's a really church and it's like it's a really feminine experience at church but then feminine experience at church but then feminine experience at church but then this data would suggest that well in this data would suggest that well in this data would suggest that well in terms of like supply and demand the terms of like supply and demand the terms of like supply and demand the people that want Church aren't the men people that want Church aren't the men people that want Church aren't the men so then you would think over time church so then you would think over time church so then you would think over time church starts to become a bit more serving the starts to become a bit more serving the starts to become a bit more serving the people that actually want to go to people that actually want to go to people that actually want to go to church and then the men come and they go church and then the men come and they go church and then the men come and they go well this isn't for me it's like well well this isn't for me it's like well well this isn't for me it's like well yeah of course it's not for you you yeah of course it's not for you you yeah of course it's not for you you never wanted to be here in the first never wanted to be here in the first never wanted to be here in the first place like what do we do about that you place like what do we do about that you place like what do we do about that you know the the the the saddest graph for know the the the the saddest graph for know the the the the saddest graph for the whole ones like this one about act the whole ones like this one about act the whole ones like this one about act spiritual activities like in the last spiritual activities like in the last spiritual activities like in the last week have you done any of the following week have you done any of the following week have you done any of the following stuff and it's like a whole big old list stuff and it's like a whole big old list stuff and it's like a whole big old list of like meditation and going in nature of like meditation and going in nature of like meditation and going in nature and reading and prayer you know what and reading and prayer you know what and reading and prayer you know what there's not a single activity on the there's not a single activity on the there's not a single activity on the list where men do it more often than list where men do it more often than list where men do it more often than women do like not a single one men

women do like not a single one men women do like not a single one men here's what I feels like men don't do here's what I feels like men don't do here's what I feels like men don't do things like things like at all like they things like things like at all like they things like things like at all like they don't have hobbies they don't have a way don't have hobbies they don't have a way don't have hobbies they don't have a way to to to to let steam off and I think to to to to let steam off and I think to to to to let steam off and I think that's that's kind of might be the that's that's kind of might be the that's that's kind of might be the bigger issue I mean I don't know about bigger issue I mean I don't know about bigger issue I mean I don't know about you but I work and then I work and I you but I work and then I work and I you but I work and then I work and I don't like someone I was at a conference don't like someone I was at a conference don't like someone I was at a conference I goes so what's your hobbies I go I I goes so what's your hobbies I go I I goes so what's your hobbies I go I don't know I make graphs he goes that's don't know I make graphs he goes that's don't know I make graphs he goes that's your job I go yeah but it's also my your job I go yeah but it's also my your job I go yeah but it's also my hobby too buddy he's like you got to hobby too buddy he's like you got to hobby too buddy he's like you got to have you got to have difference you know have you got to have difference you know have you got to have difference you know you got to have a difference right like you got to have a difference right like you got to have a difference right like the things you do for money you know and the things you do for money you know and the things you do for money you know and the things you do for work are different the things you do for work are different the things you do for work are different than the things you do for fun and I'm than the things you do for fun and I'm than the things you do for fun and I'm like I do like no one had had that like I do like no one had had that like I do like no one had had that conversation with me if that makes any conversation with me if that makes any conversation with me if that makes any sense like I didn't have a guy in my sense like I didn't have a guy in my sense like I didn't have a guy in my life to really let be like hey I'm old life to really let be like hey I'm old life to really let be like hey I'm old I'm experienced let me tell you what I I'm experienced let me tell you what I I'm experienced let me tell you what I learned the hard way when I was 40 years learned the hard way when I was 40 years learned the hard way when I was 40 years old you know and you need to figure this old you know and you need to figure this old you know and you need to figure this out before I you know cuz I had a crisis out before I you know cuz I had a crisis out before I you know cuz I had a crisis that figured it out for me I need you to that figured it out for me I need you to that figured it out for me I need you to to head off before you get to that area to head off before you get to that area to head off before you get to that area that's the kind of conversations that that's the kind of conversations that that's the kind of conversations that church should facilitate and by the way church should facilitate and by the way church should facilitate and by the way again it's not all these pastoral lead again it's not all these pastoral lead again it's not all these pastoral lead it could be just a wise old guy in the it could be just a wise old guy in the it could be just a wise old guy in the church like there's such a value in Wise church like there's such a value in Wise church like there's such a value in Wise old guys who are 70 years old who who old guys who are 70 years old who who old guys who are 70 years old who who are humble honest good human beings who are humble honest good human beings who are humble honest good human beings who want to see the Next Generation not fall want to see the Next Generation not fall want to see the Next Generation not fall in the same traps that they fell into in the same traps that they fell into in the same traps that they fell into I'll give you a story real quick quick I'll give you a story real quick quick I'll give you a story real quick quick I've buried a lot of people as a pastor I've buried a lot of people as a pastor I've buried a lot of people as a pastor my church is old I've done a lot of my church is old I've done a lot of my church is old I've done a lot of funerals I sit by bedsides for people in funerals I sit by bedsides for people in funerals I sit by bedsides for people in the last weeks or two of their lives and the last weeks or two of their lives and the last weeks or two of their lives and they're very honest with me CU what they they're very honest with me CU what they they're very honest with me CU what they got to lose right and you know what I

got to lose right and you know what I got to lose right and you know what I consistently hear over and over again consistently hear over and over again consistently hear over and over again was these older guys especially grew up was these older guys especially grew up was these older guys especially grew up you know were in the 50s and 60s were you know were in the 50s and 60s were you know were in the 50s and 60s were working like crazy they go I I wish I working like crazy they go I I wish I working like crazy they go I I wish I would have spent more time with my wife would have spent more time with my wife would have spent more time with my wife and my kids you know not a single one of and my kids you know not a single one of and my kids you know not a single one of them has ever told me I wish I would them has ever told me I wish I would them has ever told me I wish I would have spent more time working not a have spent more time working not a have spent more time working not a single one of them and I you know to me single one of them and I you know to me single one of them and I you know to me it's like if I hear that over and over it's like if I hear that over and over it's like if I hear that over and over again and I don't respond to that I'm an again and I don't respond to that I'm an again and I don't respond to that I'm an idiot cuz they're giving me like the idiot cuz they're giving me like the idiot cuz they're giving me like the Eternal wisdom and you know what sad Eternal wisdom and you know what sad Eternal wisdom and you know what sad about that they wouldn't have given that about that they wouldn't have given that about that they wouldn't have given that to me 5 years ago when they weren't on to me 5 years ago when they weren't on to me 5 years ago when they weren't on their deathbed they'll only tell me their deathbed they'll only tell me their deathbed they'll only tell me their regrets at the very very end of their regrets at the very very end of their regrets at the very very end of their life I think we need to create a their life I think we need to create a their life I think we need to create a culture where men are more willing to culture where men are more willing to culture where men are more willing to say like speak from their heart when say like speak from their heart when say like speak from their heart when they're not near the end you know when they're not near the end you know when they're not near the end you know when they actually have more things to tell they actually have more things to tell they actually have more things to tell you and can't tell you more things and you and can't tell you more things and you and can't tell you more things and help you get along the way so I don't help you get along the way so I don't help you get along the way so I don't know if you want to create like a formal know if you want to create like a formal know if you want to create like a formal mentorship program but man an informal mentorship program but man an informal mentorship program but man an informal network of like the wise Council of old network of like the wise Council of old network of like the wise Council of old dudes is not a bad idea in a lot of dudes is not a bad idea in a lot of dudes is not a bad idea in a lot of churches to help these guys you know churches to help these guys you know churches to help these guys you know maybe it's like oh we heard so- and so maybe it's like oh we heard so- and so maybe it's like oh we heard so- and so is going through it maybe maybe might is going through it maybe maybe might is going through it maybe maybe might get divorced have him go talk to the get divorced have him go talk to the get divorced have him go talk to the Council of wise old dudes and just talk Council of wise old dudes and just talk Council of wise old dudes and just talk it through you know and maybe he still it through you know and maybe he still it through you know and maybe he still ends up getting divorced but at least he ends up getting divorced but at least he ends up getting divorced but at least he had the had the had the conversation you know like I think that conversation you know like I think that conversation you know like I think that kind of convers where where do we have kind of convers where where do we have kind of convers where where do we have space for that in American society in space for that in American society in space for that in American society in Canadian Society anymore the answer is Canadian Society anymore the answer is Canadian Society anymore the answer is not very many places and I think Church not very many places and I think Church not very many places and I think Church used to be a space like that and it's used to be a space like that and it's used to be a space like that and it's not anymore and I think men are really not anymore and I think men are really not anymore and I think men are really struggling because of that well there struggling because of that well there struggling because of that well there are more men listening to this podcast are more men listening to this podcast are more men listening to this podcast than women and most of those men are than women and most of those men are than women and most of those men are roughly the ages of the three people on roughly the ages of the three people on roughly the ages of the three people on this podcast and so what that means is this podcast and so what that means is this podcast and so what that means is we're talking about something that every

we're talking about something that every we're talking about something that every one of us is living through right now one of us is living through right now one of us is living through right now and so if there are any clear takeaways and so if there are any clear takeaways and so if there are any clear takeaways from this aside from entertainment and from this aside from entertainment and from this aside from entertainment and educational value it's you know check on educational value it's you know check on educational value it's you know check on your friends and find things to put your your friends and find things to put your your friends and find things to put your passion into and like take all that like passion into and like take all that like passion into and like take all that like just great masculine energy and put it just great masculine energy and put it just great masculine energy and put it into something that isn't work and isn't into something that isn't work and isn't into something that isn't work and isn't family and isn't like something that you family and isn't like something that you family and isn't like something that you have to do something that's like have to do something that's like have to do something that's like recreational because that can be recreational because that can be recreational because that can be incredibly healthy and be the leaders in incredibly healthy and be the leaders in incredibly healthy and be the leaders in the church that we want to see more of the church that we want to see more of the church that we want to see more of right like it's lacking there aren't as right like it's lacking there aren't as right like it's lacking there aren't as many the women are doing their part you many the women are doing their part you many the women are doing their part you know let's do our part as well that's know let's do our part as well that's know let's do our part as well that's right Ryan uh graphs about religion is right Ryan uh graphs about religion is right Ryan uh graphs about religion is where we can find you uh anywhere else where we can find you uh anywhere else where we can find you uh anywhere else that we should be checking up I know you that we should be checking up I know you that we should be checking up I know you are in so many different spaces yeah are in so many different spaces yeah are in so many different spaces yeah grassp religion is really the the become grassp religion is really the the become grassp religion is really the the become the center spoke I'm on Twitter Ryan the center spoke I'm on Twitter Ryan the center spoke I'm on Twitter Ryan birs if you want to follow me there uh birs if you want to follow me there uh birs if you want to follow me there uh if you want to you know you can find my if you want to you know you can find my if you want to you know you can find my website drberg.com drberg.com Ryan b.net website drberg.com drberg.com Ryan b.net website drberg.com drberg.com Ryan b.net gets you to the same spot you know you gets you to the same spot you know you gets you to the same spot you know you can find all my work there my academic can find all my work there my academic can find all my work there my academic work books I've written you want to do a work books I've written you want to do a work books I've written you want to do a speaking request you can do it there uh speaking request you can do it there uh speaking request you can do it there uh my calendar's booking up though so it my calendar's booking up though so it my calendar's booking up though so it probably be next year if you want me to probably be next year if you want me to probably be next year if you want me to come out and yell at you guys about come out and yell at you guys about come out and yell at you guys about graphs uh but please let me do graphs graphs uh but please let me do graphs graphs uh but please let me do graphs because I'm doing this thing in Upstate because I'm doing this thing in Upstate because I'm doing this thing in Upstate New York and they don't have it's New York and they don't have it's New York and they don't have it's outside and there's no there's no outside and there's no there's no outside and there's no there's no projector and I'm like how do you want projector and I'm like how do you want projector and I'm like how do you want me to talk about this for 45 minutes me to talk about this for 45 minutes me to talk about this for 45 minutes without graphs like you'll figure it out without graphs like you'll figure it out without graphs like you'll figure it out I'm like but will I though you're going I'm like but will I though you're going I'm like but will I though you're going to be printing a lot of to be printing a lot of to be printing a lot of graphs five of your yeah of your of your graphs five of your yeah of your of your graphs five of your yeah of your of your pamphlet turn to page seven and look at

pamphlet turn to page seven and look at pamphlet turn to page seven and look at the green line that's right yeah all the green line that's right yeah all the green line that's right yeah all right great stuff Ryan thanks again for right great stuff Ryan thanks again for right great stuff Ryan thanks again for coming on and thank you for your time coming on and thank you for your time coming on and thank you for your time attention and Trust we will talk to you attention and Trust we will talk to you attention and Trust we will talk to you next Wednesday we're joined Again by next Wednesday we're joined Again by next Wednesday we're joined Again by Ryan birs from graphs about religion Ryan birs from graphs about religion Ryan birs from graphs about religion we're joined Again by Ryan birds from we're joined Again by Ryan birds from we're joined Again by Ryan birds from graphs Bo religion