Forget Attendance Goals - Track This Instead at Church

A church in Arizona has publicly posted A church in Arizona has publicly posted about their goals for the year. about their goals for the year. about their goals for the year. Interestingly, they don't mention Interestingly, they don't mention Interestingly, they don't mention anything about church attendance. What anything about church attendance. What anything about church attendance. What goals have they set? And should your goals have they set? And should your goals have they set? And should your church consider doing the same? We are church consider doing the same? We are church consider doing the same? We are here to break it all down. Let's dive here to break it all down. Let's dive here to break it all down. Let's dive in. in. in. Well, hey there and welcome to the Well, hey there and welcome to the Well, hey there and welcome to the ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as always by my co-host. We call him the always by my co-host. We call him the always by my co-host. We call him the backyard deck deacon. It's Alexander backyard deck deacon. It's Alexander backyard deck deacon. It's Alexander Mills. Mills. Mills. Hello. Hello. And today we have a tweet Hello. Hello. And today we have a tweet Hello. Hello. And today we have a tweet here from March 26th, 2025 from Luke here from March 26th, 2025 from Luke here from March 26th, 2025 from Luke Simmons, Luke D. Simmons on X Twitter. Simmons, Luke D. Simmons on X Twitter. Simmons, Luke D. Simmons on X Twitter. Uh Luke is pastor at Ironwood Church in Uh Luke is pastor at Ironwood Church in Uh Luke is pastor at Ironwood Church in Arizona. For context, this is a church Arizona. For context, this is a church Arizona. For context, this is a church of around 1900. Luke says they're a of around 1900. Luke says they're a of around 1900. Luke says they're a growing church. 43 total staff, of which growing church. 43 total staff, of which growing church. 43 total staff, of which 18 are full-time. Why is that important? 18 are full-time. Why is that important? 18 are full-time. Why is that important? Because it helps us set up this post. Because it helps us set up this post. Because it helps us set up this post. Luke said this. At our Elder Retreat Luke said this. At our Elder Retreat Luke said this. At our Elder Retreat this weekend, we're going to try to land this weekend, we're going to try to land this weekend, we're going to try to land on three quantitative goals for the next on three quantitative goals for the next on three quantitative goals for the next year. Some options are 80% people in year. Some options are 80% people in year. Some options are 80% people in exploring Christianity, 25% increase in exploring Christianity, 25% increase in exploring Christianity, 25% increase in volunteers on every team, 90% giving and volunteers on every team, 90% giving and volunteers on every team, 90% giving and serving rate among covenant members, 60% serving rate among covenant members, 60% serving rate among covenant members, 60% full attendance at all three services.

full attendance at all three services. full attendance at all three services. Uh he went on to explain how like in Uh he went on to explain how like in Uh he went on to explain how like in their second service it's like 70% full, their second service it's like 70% full, their second service it's like 70% full, but like one in three is but like one in three is but like one in three is like better distribution across the like better distribution across the like better distribution across the three services. 500 unique individuals three services. 500 unique individuals three services. 500 unique individuals in parenting training. 200 second time in parenting training. 200 second time in parenting training. 200 second time guests. Sounds like they have a connect guests. Sounds like they have a connect guests. Sounds like they have a connect card where you can say I am a second card where you can say I am a second card where you can say I am a second time guest. 200 people in spiritual time guest. 200 people in spiritual time guest. 200 people in spiritual formation pathway. And then lastly, 750 formation pathway. And then lastly, 750 formation pathway. And then lastly, 750 unique one-on-one meetings with pastors unique one-on-one meetings with pastors unique one-on-one meetings with pastors for a meal or coffee. He finishes by for a meal or coffee. He finishes by for a meal or coffee. He finishes by saying this. I don't know which three saying this. I don't know which three saying this. I don't know which three we'll pick or maybe others we haven't we'll pick or maybe others we haven't we'll pick or maybe others we haven't thought of, but the exercise is thought of, but the exercise is thought of, but the exercise is incredibly valuable. Which of these incredibly valuable. Which of these incredibly valuable. Which of these would you prioritize? would you prioritize? would you prioritize? So, it spawned a bunch of really So, it spawned a bunch of really So, it spawned a bunch of really interesting conversation. One of the interesting conversation. One of the interesting conversation. One of the responses that I picked up on was from a responses that I picked up on was from a responses that I picked up on was from a guy named Matt. He said this quote, guy named Matt. He said this quote, guy named Matt. He said this quote, "Most of these aren't things you or your "Most of these aren't things you or your "Most of these aren't things you or your staff have direct control over." The staff have direct control over." The staff have direct control over." The exception being the last one, the exception being the last one, the exception being the last one, the coffees and meals. I'd really recommend coffees and meals. I'd really recommend coffees and meals. I'd really recommend staying away from those other ones. staying away from those other ones. staying away from those other ones. That's so hard on a staff being That's so hard on a staff being That's so hard on a staff being evaluated by a metric that depends on evaluated by a metric that depends on evaluated by a metric that depends on someone else taking a step. Luke someone else taking a step. Luke someone else taking a step. Luke responds, quote, I appreciate that lead responds, quote, I appreciate that lead responds, quote, I appreciate that lead lag instinct. I also think though it's lag instinct. I also think though it's lag instinct. I also think though it's okay to aim at certain results. I'm okay to aim at certain results. I'm okay to aim at certain results. I'm inclined to leave more of the lag goals inclined to leave more of the lag goals inclined to leave more of the lag goals as the overall objectives for the whole as the overall objectives for the whole as the overall objectives for the whole staff and then develop corresponding staff and then develop corresponding staff and then develop corresponding lead KPIs for individual staff members lead KPIs for individual staff members lead KPIs for individual staff members and teams. KPIs is an acronym for I and teams. KPIs is an acronym for I and teams. KPIs is an acronym for I believe key performance indicator believe key performance indicator believe key performance indicator and basically it's like a thing that you and basically it's like a thing that you and basically it's like a thing that you can say this actual thing happened and can say this actual thing happened and can say this actual thing happened and then tie it to either a job description then tie it to either a job description then tie it to either a job description or an objective for an individual. And or an objective for an individual. And or an objective for an individual. And so Luke there is making the distinction so Luke there is making the distinction so Luke there is making the distinction between like

between like between like the goal objective for the organization the goal objective for the organization the goal objective for the organization as a whole and then what the individual as a whole and then what the individual as a whole and then what the individual staff member could control on them on staff member could control on them on staff member could control on them on their own. their own. their own. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We get an update about a month later We get an update about a month later We get an update about a month later from Luke. Update. We ended up deciding from Luke. Update. We ended up deciding from Luke. Update. We ended up deciding on just one quantitative goal for our on just one quantitative goal for our on just one quantitative goal for our staff team. We will have one- on-one staff team. We will have one- on-one staff team. We will have one- on-one relational meetings, usually coffee or a relational meetings, usually coffee or a relational meetings, usually coffee or a meal, with at least 1,000 different meal, with at least 1,000 different meal, with at least 1,000 different people in our church. I'm anticipating people in our church. I'm anticipating people in our church. I'm anticipating that God will do some sweet things that God will do some sweet things that God will do some sweet things through these connections. through these connections. through these connections. Shout out to Matt for the push back in Shout out to Matt for the push back in Shout out to Matt for the push back in the comments that maybe led them to the comments that maybe led them to the comments that maybe led them to making this uh maybe led them to making making this uh maybe led them to making making this uh maybe led them to making this decision to choose one over the this decision to choose one over the this decision to choose one over the rest. But 1,000 one-on-one meetings and rest. But 1,000 one-on-one meetings and rest. But 1,000 one-on-one meetings and he goes on again in the comments. Luke he goes on again in the comments. Luke he goes on again in the comments. Luke is a great follow on Twitter. I've been is a great follow on Twitter. I've been is a great follow on Twitter. I've been following him for a long time. um you following him for a long time. um you following him for a long time. um you can tell he's a systems guy and he can tell he's a systems guy and he can tell he's a systems guy and he really has perfected the art of the really has perfected the art of the really has perfected the art of the Twitter thread um with you know Twitter thread um with you know Twitter thread um with you know condensing a really valuable piece of condensing a really valuable piece of condensing a really valuable piece of content into this thread style um piece content into this thread style um piece content into this thread style um piece that ends up being like really helpful that ends up being like really helpful that ends up being like really helpful resources for pastors and leaders in in resources for pastors and leaders in in resources for pastors and leaders in in churches. um but 1,000 of these meetings churches. um but 1,000 of these meetings churches. um but 1,000 of these meetings over the course of a calendar year. And over the course of a calendar year. And over the course of a calendar year. And he goes he he goes into into depth in he goes he he goes into into depth in he goes he he goes into into depth in the comments to break it down to say the comments to break it down to say the comments to break it down to say like, okay, um each full-time staff like, okay, um each full-time staff like, okay, um each full-time staff member is going to be responsible for member is going to be responsible for member is going to be responsible for one of these a week and then each one of these a week and then each one of these a week and then each part-time responsible for one a month.

part-time responsible for one a month. part-time responsible for one a month. And he says like, I really anticipate, And he says like, I really anticipate, And he says like, I really anticipate, learning, and you know, loving what we learning, and you know, loving what we learning, and you know, loving what we are going to unearth in these one-on-one are going to unearth in these one-on-one are going to unearth in these one-on-one conversations. I think that's such a conversations. I think that's such a conversations. I think that's such a such a great initiative at their church such a great initiative at their church such a great initiative at their church or any church really. So, we're going to or any church really. So, we're going to or any church really. So, we're going to talk about a few of the reasons why we talk about a few of the reasons why we talk about a few of the reasons why we think these types of goals, these types think these types of goals, these types think these types of goals, these types of quantitative goals are ideal for of quantitative goals are ideal for of quantitative goals are ideal for churches to set. And then, Pastor Alex churches to set. And then, Pastor Alex churches to set. And then, Pastor Alex has, unbeknownst to me, compiled a few has, unbeknownst to me, compiled a few has, unbeknownst to me, compiled a few recommendations outside of this example recommendations outside of this example recommendations outside of this example of other examples that your church might of other examples that your church might of other examples that your church might consider pursuing. consider pursuing. consider pursuing. First reason why I love this type of First reason why I love this type of First reason why I love this type of quantitative goal quantitative goal quantitative goal is that it's process focused over is that it's process focused over is that it's process focused over outcome focused. Uh Luke used the outcome focused. Uh Luke used the outcome focused. Uh Luke used the language lead versus lag. Yeah. language lead versus lag. Yeah. language lead versus lag. Yeah. Lead is something you can control. Lag Lead is something you can control. Lag Lead is something you can control. Lag is kind of that secondary effect where is kind of that secondary effect where is kind of that secondary effect where you you you downstream of what has already occurred. downstream of what has already occurred. downstream of what has already occurred. Precisely. And you know, we've noticed Precisely. And you know, we've noticed Precisely. And you know, we've noticed this in our own organization. Um last this in our own organization. Um last this in our own organization. Um last year we made the announcement after year we made the announcement after year we made the announcement after discussing this internally with our team discussing this internally with our team discussing this internally with our team that we were going to deliver and that we were going to deliver and that we were going to deliver and complete 1,000 church website makeovers complete 1,000 church website makeovers complete 1,000 church website makeovers for free for free for free to churches. And we're halfway through to churches. And we're halfway through to churches. And we're halfway through 2025 now and we're more than halfway to 2025 now and we're more than halfway to 2025 now and we're more than halfway to that goal. And so the goal was to finish that goal. And so the goal was to finish that goal. And so the goal was to finish it by the end of 2025. And right now we it by the end of 2025. And right now we it by the end of 2025. And right now we are on pace for that. And since we've are on pace for that. And since we've are on pace for that. And since we've installed that goal within our team, installed that goal within our team, installed that goal within our team, there have been like a bunch of people there have been like a bunch of people there have been like a bunch of people that have really taken ownership over that have really taken ownership over that have really taken ownership over that because they had like a certain that because they had like a certain that because they had like a certain level of control is hey here's the level of control is hey here's the level of control is hey here's the demand. The demand exists. So now it's

demand. The demand exists. So now it's demand. The demand exists. So now it's just about like figuring out the just about like figuring out the just about like figuring out the systems, figuring out the time. In the systems, figuring out the time. In the systems, figuring out the time. In the same way, you'd have to figure out, same way, you'd have to figure out, same way, you'd have to figure out, okay, if I'm responsible for this many okay, if I'm responsible for this many okay, if I'm responsible for this many coffee meetings or this many lunch coffee meetings or this many lunch coffee meetings or this many lunch meetings per week, how am I going to fit meetings per week, how am I going to fit meetings per week, how am I going to fit that into my schedule, but it's not this that into my schedule, but it's not this that into my schedule, but it's not this like out of bounds or out of your reach like out of bounds or out of your reach like out of bounds or out of your reach trajectory or like prospect for the trajectory or like prospect for the trajectory or like prospect for the church to like, hey, we're going to grow church to like, hey, we're going to grow church to like, hey, we're going to grow by this many people. And I think this is by this many people. And I think this is by this many people. And I think this is maybe challenging for a lot of churches. maybe challenging for a lot of churches. maybe challenging for a lot of churches. I know it's challenging as someone that I know it's challenging as someone that I know it's challenging as someone that leads an organization where it's really leads an organization where it's really leads an organization where it's really easy to set like revenue targets or on easy to set like revenue targets or on easy to set like revenue targets or on social media as someone that posts social media as someone that posts social media as someone that posts frequently like oh I want to have this frequently like oh I want to have this frequently like oh I want to have this many followers or I want to grow by this many followers or I want to grow by this many followers or I want to grow by this many people. Similarly on social uh with many people. Similarly on social uh with many people. Similarly on social uh with content we make we removed those content we make we removed those content we make we removed those number goals many years ago and now you number goals many years ago and now you number goals many years ago and now you can look inside of my own spreadsheets can look inside of my own spreadsheets can look inside of my own spreadsheets and you'll just see like my goal is to and you'll just see like my goal is to and you'll just see like my goal is to publish this many posts like this this publish this many posts like this this publish this many posts like this this year. year. year. And when you do that something good And when you do that something good And when you do that something good downstream is going to happen, downstream is going to happen, downstream is going to happen, right? And sometimes it's like a lot of right? And sometimes it's like a lot of right? And sometimes it's like a lot of followers and then other times it's not. followers and then other times it's not. followers and then other times it's not. And I can look and say like I feel like And I can look and say like I feel like And I can look and say like I feel like my input was the same but my output was my input was the same but my output was my input was the same but my output was different.

different. different. And that's the part that can be I think And that's the part that can be I think And that's the part that can be I think really tricky for leaders. The part really tricky for leaders. The part really tricky for leaders. The part that's really tricky for staff is when that's really tricky for staff is when that's really tricky for staff is when they feel like they might be getting they feel like they might be getting they feel like they might be getting evaluated based on something that they evaluated based on something that they evaluated based on something that they cannot control. And there's like the cannot control. And there's like the cannot control. And there's like the negative side of that. But there's also negative side of that. But there's also negative side of that. But there's also the positive side that we've seen and the positive side that we've seen and the positive side that we've seen and what Luke is describing here. What Matt what Luke is describing here. What Matt what Luke is describing here. What Matt described in his like concern in described in his like concern in described in his like concern in response to the original post was that response to the original post was that response to the original post was that if staff don't have something in their if staff don't have something in their if staff don't have something in their lap that they feel is in their direct lap that they feel is in their direct lap that they feel is in their direct control, it can be discouraging. control, it can be discouraging. control, it can be discouraging. I don't know if you've seen something I don't know if you've seen something I don't know if you've seen something like that at your own church because like that at your own church because like that at your own church because here as soon as I gave people something here as soon as I gave people something here as soon as I gave people something that they could control, it was like that they could control, it was like that they could control, it was like night and day their perspective, their night and day their perspective, their night and day their perspective, their day-to-day work and it wasn't short day-to-day work and it wasn't short day-to-day work and it wasn't short term. months later, now more than a year term. months later, now more than a year term. months later, now more than a year later, that same level of focus and like later, that same level of focus and like later, that same level of focus and like determination has sustained itself. determination has sustained itself. determination has sustained itself. There has to be some sort of There has to be some sort of There has to be some sort of psychological thing going on there. I psychological thing going on there. I psychological thing going on there. I wish I I I would have been able to wish I I I would have been able to wish I I I would have been able to foresee this conversation going here so foresee this conversation going here so foresee this conversation going here so that earlier in the day I could have that earlier in the day I could have that earlier in the day I could have looked up, you know, like what is it looked up, you know, like what is it looked up, you know, like what is it about having control over an assignment about having control over an assignment about having control over an assignment or having a quantitative goal that I or having a quantitative goal that I or having a quantitative goal that I know I can affect the result in some way know I can affect the result in some way know I can affect the result in some way that motivates a different type of that motivates a different type of that motivates a different type of engagement with the work or um you know engagement with the work or um you know engagement with the work or um you know ownership of the work. But anecdotally, ownership of the work. But anecdotally, ownership of the work. But anecdotally, we have seen it in our workplace, in our we have seen it in our workplace, in our we have seen it in our workplace, in our church spaces. Maybe we've even felt it church spaces. Maybe we've even felt it church spaces. Maybe we've even felt it in our own bodies, which is like, oh in our own bodies, which is like, oh in our own bodies, which is like, oh yeah, when I when I was given that task yeah, when I when I was given that task yeah, when I when I was given that task and I could see the way that I could and I could see the way that I could and I could see the way that I could help accomplish it, it really motivated help accomplish it, it really motivated help accomplish it, it really motivated me to do A, B, or C. I don't really know

me to do A, B, or C. I don't really know me to do A, B, or C. I don't really know why that is, but it seems like there is why that is, but it seems like there is why that is, but it seems like there is something psychologically going on something psychologically going on something psychologically going on underneath that. Yeah, we talk about the underneath that. Yeah, we talk about the underneath that. Yeah, we talk about the two things that every person needs who two things that every person needs who two things that every person needs who you are leading, and that is they want you are leading, and that is they want you are leading, and that is they want to feel known and needed. And this would to feel known and needed. And this would to feel known and needed. And this would fall in that like needed camp, but it fall in that like needed camp, but it fall in that like needed camp, but it would probably also carry over to the would probably also carry over to the would probably also carry over to the known side where they feel known because known side where they feel known because known side where they feel known because you're aware of what they're working on you're aware of what they're working on you're aware of what they're working on and even like how it contributes to the and even like how it contributes to the and even like how it contributes to the overall mission of the organization. But overall mission of the organization. But overall mission of the organization. But if you think about when you were a child if you think about when you were a child if you think about when you were a child and like you wanted to save up for and like you wanted to save up for and like you wanted to save up for something that you couldn't buy something that you couldn't buy something that you couldn't buy and you would have a chore that your and you would have a chore that your and you would have a chore that your parents gave you like okay like if you parents gave you like okay like if you parents gave you like okay like if you you know tidy up this thing that is out you know tidy up this thing that is out you know tidy up this thing that is out of the bounds of what you normally do, of the bounds of what you normally do, of the bounds of what you normally do, we'll give you like a dollar and you can we'll give you like a dollar and you can we'll give you like a dollar and you can add that to your piggy bank to save up add that to your piggy bank to save up add that to your piggy bank to save up for something. The work carries new for something. The work carries new for something. The work carries new meaning when you have a vision for what meaning when you have a vision for what meaning when you have a vision for what it will translate to. And surely that is it will translate to. And surely that is it will translate to. And surely that is playing a component here as well where playing a component here as well where playing a component here as well where people are aware of what's required of people are aware of what's required of people are aware of what's required of them. them. them. It is black and white. They are It is black and white. They are It is black and white. They are confident that if they fulfill those confident that if they fulfill those confident that if they fulfill those goals, not only will they be considered, goals, not only will they be considered, goals, not only will they be considered, hey, you're meeting the mark. You're hey, you're meeting the mark. You're hey, you're meeting the mark. You're doing what we've asked you to do, but doing what we've asked you to do, but doing what we've asked you to do, but it's also it's also it's also mattering in the grand scheme of the mattering in the grand scheme of the mattering in the grand scheme of the organization. And I think that's an organization. And I think that's an organization. And I think that's an important part because you can give important part because you can give important part because you can give someone something that they have someone something that they have someone something that they have ownership over and if they feel like ownership over and if they feel like ownership over and if they feel like it's menial busy work, if they feel like it's menial busy work, if they feel like it's menial busy work, if they feel like it's disconnected at all from the it's disconnected at all from the it's disconnected at all from the grander mission, like it's not really grander mission, like it's not really grander mission, like it's not really contributing to what people say and show contributing to what people say and show contributing to what people say and show matters at this church, it won't have matters at this church, it won't have matters at this church, it won't have the same potency. But if the overall the same potency. But if the overall the same potency. But if the overall goal for all the staff is this one big goal for all the staff is this one big goal for all the staff is this one big thing, and it's kind of interesting like thing, and it's kind of interesting like thing, and it's kind of interesting like we had a thousand makeovers as the we had a thousand makeovers as the we had a thousand makeovers as the target and then this was like a thousand

target and then this was like a thousand target and then this was like a thousand meals. like not a single person on our meals. like not a single person on our meals. like not a single person on our team is able to do all a thousand, team is able to do all a thousand, team is able to do all a thousand, right? right? right? Everyone is working together on it Everyone is working together on it Everyone is working together on it across the board. And this is the same across the board. And this is the same across the board. And this is the same for this staff. And so now there's this for this staff. And so now there's this for this staff. And so now there's this also camaraderie effect where we're all also camaraderie effect where we're all also camaraderie effect where we're all contributing many hands makes for light contributing many hands makes for light contributing many hands makes for light work because none of us could do it on work because none of us could do it on work because none of us could do it on our own. our own. our own. That's right. And Luke describes his That's right. And Luke describes his That's right. And Luke describes his church community as one to be growing. church community as one to be growing. church community as one to be growing. And I wonder about that. You know, Luke, And I wonder about that. You know, Luke, And I wonder about that. You know, Luke, if if you spend any time reading Luke's if if you spend any time reading Luke's if if you spend any time reading Luke's Twitter feed or Twitter X feed, you can Twitter feed or Twitter X feed, you can Twitter feed or Twitter X feed, you can see that he's like a really proficient see that he's like a really proficient see that he's like a really proficient leader when it comes to um goal leader when it comes to um goal leader when it comes to um goal forecasting and empowering his team to forecasting and empowering his team to forecasting and empowering his team to accomplish those goals and feel seen and accomplish those goals and feel seen and accomplish those goals and feel seen and known in working towards those goals. known in working towards those goals. known in working towards those goals. And you know, we know that God builds And you know, we know that God builds And you know, we know that God builds the church. Um, but it seems that maybe the church. Um, but it seems that maybe the church. Um, but it seems that maybe there's something at play here of like there's something at play here of like there's something at play here of like the way that the teams are being led the way that the teams are being led the way that the teams are being led from the top down at Ironwood and the from the top down at Ironwood and the from the top down at Ironwood and the result in in the church community, not result in in the church community, not result in in the church community, not just in the staff and their morale and just in the staff and their morale and just in the staff and their morale and their work ethic, but in the church their work ethic, but in the church their work ethic, but in the church community as a whole. If you also do community as a whole. If you also do community as a whole. If you also do want a free website makeover, go to want a free website makeover, go to want a free website makeover, go to nucleus.urch/makeovers. nucleus.urch/makeovers. nucleus.urch/makeovers. Apply and we'll follow up. We'll get Apply and we'll follow up. We'll get Apply and we'll follow up. We'll get started. Second reason why setting started. Second reason why setting started. Second reason why setting quantitative goals that are in your quantitative goals that are in your quantitative goals that are in your control is ideal for churches. Um, back control is ideal for churches. Um, back control is ideal for churches. Um, back in 2021, in 2021, in 2021, our buddy, our pal, our guy, Ryan Bur, our buddy, our pal, our guy, Ryan Bur, our buddy, our pal, our guy, Ryan Bur, Graphs About Religion, Graphs About Religion, Graphs About Religion, had his graduate assistant look up the had his graduate assistant look up the had his graduate assistant look up the address of each of the 155 churches that address of each of the 155 churches that address of each of the 155 churches that topped that year's outreaches, outreach topped that year's outreaches, outreach topped that year's outreaches, outreach magazines, like fastest growing churches magazines, like fastest growing churches magazines, like fastest growing churches in America.

in America. in America. He then took those addresses and cross He then took those addresses and cross He then took those addresses and cross referenced them with the population referenced them with the population referenced them with the population growth in those counties, growth in those counties, growth in those counties, of course. And this is what he found. of course. And this is what he found. of course. And this is what he found. Between 2010 and 2020, so the decade Between 2010 and 2020, so the decade Between 2010 and 2020, so the decade that preceded that year, 55% of all that preceded that year, 55% of all that preceded that year, 55% of all counties in the US reported a population counties in the US reported a population counties in the US reported a population decline. Okay? So more than half of all decline. Okay? So more than half of all decline. Okay? So more than half of all counties in the country, population counties in the country, population counties in the country, population decline. decline. decline. Among the churches on the outreach list, Among the churches on the outreach list, Among the churches on the outreach list, it was not 55%. It was just 10%. In the it was not 55%. It was just 10%. In the it was not 55%. It was just 10%. In the general population, 76% of all counties general population, 76% of all counties general population, 76% of all counties grew less than 5% between 2010 and 2020. grew less than 5% between 2010 and 2020. grew less than 5% between 2010 and 2020. Among the fastest growing churches, it Among the fastest growing churches, it Among the fastest growing churches, it was just 24%. was just 24%. was just 24%. Basically, very few of the fastest Basically, very few of the fastest Basically, very few of the fastest growing churches were in low growth growing churches were in low growth growing churches were in low growth counties. counties. counties. Right? Right? Right? 13% 13% 13% of all counties in the United States of all counties in the United States of all counties in the United States grew at least 10%. So even a smaller grew at least 10%. So even a smaller grew at least 10%. So even a smaller sliver 13% growing at least 10% in sliver 13% growing at least 10% in sliver 13% growing at least 10% in population among the outreach churches population among the outreach churches population among the outreach churches it was 59%.

it was 59%. it was 59%. So basically a county on the outreach So basically a county on the outreach So basically a county on the outreach list of fastest growing churches was list of fastest growing churches was list of fastest growing churches was four times more likely to experience a four times more likely to experience a four times more likely to experience a 20% plus population growth than a 20% plus population growth than a 20% plus population growth than a randomly selected county in the United randomly selected county in the United randomly selected county in the United States. The data there is like States. The data there is like States. The data there is like suggesting one very clear thing. You suggesting one very clear thing. You suggesting one very clear thing. You want to grow a church go to a county want to grow a church go to a county want to grow a church go to a county that is already growing. Mhm. that is already growing. Mhm. that is already growing. Mhm. And this is so illustrative of the And this is so illustrative of the And this is so illustrative of the potential harm that can take place when potential harm that can take place when potential harm that can take place when you set unrealistic church growth you set unrealistic church growth you set unrealistic church growth targets that are measured by attendance targets that are measured by attendance targets that are measured by attendance because the ones that are growing the because the ones that are growing the because the ones that are growing the fastest, I think they would all say, you fastest, I think they would all say, you fastest, I think they would all say, you know, we're preaching the Bible, we care know, we're preaching the Bible, we care know, we're preaching the Bible, we care about disciplehip, about disciplehip, about disciplehip, of course, of course, of course, you know, we're all we love our city. you know, we're all we love our city. you know, we're all we love our city. And then you're like, so do I, but like And then you're like, so do I, but like And then you're like, so do I, but like I'm not seeing the same fruit. And it I'm not seeing the same fruit. And it I'm not seeing the same fruit. And it might be because might be because might be because Yeah. What county do you live in? You're Yeah. What county do you live in? You're Yeah. What county do you live in? You're in one of the 55% of counties where the in one of the 55% of counties where the in one of the 55% of counties where the population is declining. population is declining. population is declining. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's Ryan's data Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's Ryan's data Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's Ryan's data here. So often with Ryan's data, is when here. So often with Ryan's data, is when here. So often with Ryan's data, is when he presents it, it says something that he presents it, it says something that he presents it, it says something that makes sense, but before he presents it, makes sense, but before he presents it, makes sense, but before he presents it, your intuition is almost um opposite of your intuition is almost um opposite of your intuition is almost um opposite of of what the data then later suggests.

of what the data then later suggests. of what the data then later suggests. And so, of course, it makes sense that And so, of course, it makes sense that And so, of course, it makes sense that churches in counties where the churches in counties where the churches in counties where the population is growing are outpacing population is growing are outpacing population is growing are outpacing churches in counties where the churches in counties where the churches in counties where the population doesn't grow in church population doesn't grow in church population doesn't grow in church growth. And that makes sense. But when growth. And that makes sense. But when growth. And that makes sense. But when you when when he collates it and you when when he collates it and you when when he collates it and presents it that way, and now we get to presents it that way, and now we get to presents it that way, and now we get to talk about it on on the show, it gives talk about it on on the show, it gives talk about it on on the show, it gives us some solace as for churches that us some solace as for churches that us some solace as for churches that aren't in counties that are growing or aren't in counties that are growing or aren't in counties that are growing or aren't experiencing rapid church growth aren't experiencing rapid church growth aren't experiencing rapid church growth like the church the county over. It like the church the county over. It like the church the county over. It gives us um an answer for why and or at gives us um an answer for why and or at gives us um an answer for why and or at least some insight into why and then least some insight into why and then least some insight into why and then serves to temper our expectations of serves to temper our expectations of serves to temper our expectations of what if we're setting goals for for what if we're setting goals for for what if we're setting goals for for church attendance or church growth as church attendance or church growth as church attendance or church growth as far as like people belonging or showing far as like people belonging or showing far as like people belonging or showing up on a Sunday service it kind of serves up on a Sunday service it kind of serves up on a Sunday service it kind of serves to temper those expectations and by to temper those expectations and by to temper those expectations and by tempering those expectations it doesn't tempering those expectations it doesn't tempering those expectations it doesn't put unreasonable pressure on the folks put unreasonable pressure on the folks put unreasonable pressure on the folks who are doing the work in day in and day who are doing the work in day in and day who are doing the work in day in and day out at your church. out at your church. out at your church. Yeah. And similarly on social, I was Yeah. And similarly on social, I was Yeah. And similarly on social, I was talking with like a larger Christian talking with like a larger Christian talking with like a larger Christian creator this week. They had asked me to creator this week. They had asked me to creator this week. They had asked me to like review and audit some of their like review and audit some of their like review and audit some of their channels and they're like like why are channels and they're like like why are channels and they're like like why are we doing something wrong? And I told we doing something wrong? And I told we doing something wrong? And I told them I was like yeah here's some like them I was like yeah here's some like them I was like yeah here's some like changes you can make. Here are some changes you can make. Here are some changes you can make. Here are some things you're doing that are like really things you're doing that are like really things you're doing that are like really good and you don't need to change. I good and you don't need to change. I good and you don't need to change. I said it's just important to understand said it's just important to understand said it's just important to understand like the cycle of social that we're in like the cycle of social that we're in like the cycle of social that we're in right now. It's like saturation is high.

right now. It's like saturation is high. right now. It's like saturation is high. Innovation in new features and new Innovation in new features and new Innovation in new features and new opportunities is is pretty low right opportunities is is pretty low right opportunities is is pretty low right now. And when that happens it's like now. And when that happens it's like now. And when that happens it's like real estate in a hot market. like it's real estate in a hot market. like it's real estate in a hot market. like it's just hard to find like the right spot just hard to find like the right spot just hard to find like the right spot that you know in another market you that you know in another market you that you know in another market you might have like wow cheap real estate might have like wow cheap real estate might have like wow cheap real estate let's buy it up here let's buy it up here let's buy it up here and it's kind of the same with the and it's kind of the same with the and it's kind of the same with the county that you're serving in and so if county that you're serving in and so if county that you're serving in and so if you set church attendance goals in you set church attendance goals in you set church attendance goals in church A where the county is growing and church A where the county is growing and church A where the county is growing and you set similar goals relative to size you set similar goals relative to size you set similar goals relative to size in county B where the county is not in county B where the county is not in county B where the county is not growing you could have two different growing you could have two different growing you could have two different outcomes and two different outcomes and two different outcomes and two different cultures on the staff based on those cultures on the staff based on those cultures on the staff based on those outcomes that were never in your control outcomes that were never in your control outcomes that were never in your control to begin with. Now, is there some to begin with. Now, is there some to begin with. Now, is there some control? Is this to say like if your control? Is this to say like if your control? Is this to say like if your county isn't growing, like, hey, just so county isn't growing, like, hey, just so county isn't growing, like, hey, just so you know, your church can't grow. We're you know, your church can't grow. We're you know, your church can't grow. We're not saying that. What we're saying, not saying that. What we're saying, not saying that. What we're saying, though, is there are lagging goals and though, is there are lagging goals and though, is there are lagging goals and if those are the pre-minent focus in an if those are the pre-minent focus in an if those are the pre-minent focus in an organization, in a church, you have to organization, in a church, you have to organization, in a church, you have to recognize the potential negative recognize the potential negative recognize the potential negative outcomes that can come from that. outcomes that can come from that. outcomes that can come from that. There's a theological side to this as There's a theological side to this as There's a theological side to this as well that I kind of want to lob up to well that I kind of want to lob up to well that I kind of want to lob up to Pastor Alex and then see his thoughts Pastor Alex and then see his thoughts Pastor Alex and then see his thoughts because I wouldn't claim that this is my because I wouldn't claim that this is my because I wouldn't claim that this is my area of expertise. But when I think area of expertise. But when I think area of expertise. But when I think about a goal like let's have a thousand about a goal like let's have a thousand about a goal like let's have a thousand meals oneon-one meals oneon-one meals oneon-one or coffee meetings with people in our or coffee meetings with people in our or coffee meetings with people in our church connected to our church that to church connected to our church that to church connected to our church that to me screams like that is under the me screams like that is under the me screams like that is under the category of shephering that is pastoral category of shephering that is pastoral category of shephering that is pastoral care that is like A1 in terms of care that is like A1 in terms of care that is like A1 in terms of responsibilities for churches and responsibilities for churches and responsibilities for churches and pastors. When I think of growing the pastors. When I think of growing the pastors. When I think of growing the church attendance numbers, that feels church attendance numbers, that feels church attendance numbers, that feels like something that would fall in like like something that would fall in like like something that would fall in like my camp as like someone who does my camp as like someone who does my camp as like someone who does marketing, as someone that does like marketing, as someone that does like marketing, as someone that does like strategic things, and I famously do not

strategic things, and I famously do not strategic things, and I famously do not feel like I fall into the pastoral camp feel like I fall into the pastoral camp feel like I fall into the pastoral camp because my relational bandwidth is not because my relational bandwidth is not because my relational bandwidth is not exceptionally high. A thousand meetings exceptionally high. A thousand meetings exceptionally high. A thousand meetings one-on-one, maybe I could be responsible one-on-one, maybe I could be responsible one-on-one, maybe I could be responsible for three over the course of a year, for three over the course of a year, for three over the course of a year, maybe like I can contribute. Um, Joside, maybe like I can contribute. Um, Joside, maybe like I can contribute. Um, Joside, like setting a church attendance growth like setting a church attendance growth like setting a church attendance growth target as like the prioritized or target as like the prioritized or target as like the prioritized or ultimate growth target for a church ultimate growth target for a church ultimate growth target for a church almost doesn't even feel like it aligns almost doesn't even feel like it aligns almost doesn't even feel like it aligns with what the church is responsible for. with what the church is responsible for. with what the church is responsible for. It can be one of again the lagging It can be one of again the lagging It can be one of again the lagging indicators. You know, we talk about indicators. You know, we talk about indicators. You know, we talk about church growth in the context of like we church growth in the context of like we church growth in the context of like we want active participants, not passive want active participants, not passive want active participants, not passive spectators. And if you focus on the spectators. And if you focus on the spectators. And if you focus on the health of your people, you know, health of your people, you know, health of your people, you know, invariably that will translate to the invariably that will translate to the invariably that will translate to the greater health of the church. And greater health of the church. And greater health of the church. And depending on where you live and a lot of depending on where you live and a lot of depending on where you live and a lot of other factors, that could translate to other factors, that could translate to other factors, that could translate to increased numbers increased numbers increased numbers of new people and not just transfer of new people and not just transfer of new people and not just transfer growth. But if like that's all you focus growth. But if like that's all you focus growth. But if like that's all you focus on, is that even like the responsibility on, is that even like the responsibility on, is that even like the responsibility of a pastor, of a pastor, of a pastor, you know, we still have things to get to you know, we still have things to get to you know, we still have things to get to on this episode. on this episode. on this episode. Okay. So, I think Okay. So, I think Okay. So, I think no, that his answer there. no, that his answer there. no, that his answer there. No, it's such an important question and No, it's such an important question and No, it's such an important question and it does open the door to an entirely new it does open the door to an entirely new it does open the door to an entirely new conversation. Um but I I think what conversation. Um but I I think what conversation. Um but I I think what you're putting your finger on is a bit you're putting your finger on is a bit you're putting your finger on is a bit of the symptom of the church growth of the symptom of the church growth of the symptom of the church growth movement of the last 30 years. And I movement of the last 30 years. And I movement of the last 30 years. And I think um three decades in or so roughly think um three decades in or so roughly think um three decades in or so roughly into this church growth movement uh into this church growth movement uh into this church growth movement uh predominantly in the west where you and predominantly in the west where you and predominantly in the west where you and I live and where we work and in the I live and where we work and in the I live and where we work and in the industry we work we're seeing okay maybe industry we work we're seeing okay maybe industry we work we're seeing okay maybe there are some motivations some there are some motivations some there are some motivations some motivating factors that have creeped in motivating factors that have creeped in motivating factors that have creeped in to the church in the west not just to the church in the west not just to the church in the west not just predominantly the west but that's our predominantly the west but that's our predominantly the west but that's our context the church in the west that have context the church in the west that have context the church in the west that have prioritized um growth um uh of size over

prioritized um growth um uh of size over prioritized um growth um uh of size over we're talking um you know um horizontal we're talking um you know um horizontal we're talking um you know um horizontal grow width growth versus depth growth. grow width growth versus depth growth. grow width growth versus depth growth. And we've prioritized growing the And we've prioritized growing the And we've prioritized growing the collective size of the body over growing collective size of the body over growing collective size of the body over growing the individuals who belong to the body, the individuals who belong to the body, the individuals who belong to the body, been going deep with people one-on-one, been going deep with people one-on-one, been going deep with people one-on-one, for example. And I think we're just for example. And I think we're just for example. And I think we're just starting to reckon with maybe the starting to reckon with maybe the starting to reckon with maybe the ramifications of the priority leaning ramifications of the priority leaning ramifications of the priority leaning too far to one side of the scale because too far to one side of the scale because too far to one side of the scale because like many things, you and I were just like many things, you and I were just like many things, you and I were just having a conversation about something having a conversation about something having a conversation about something totally different before we uh hit the totally different before we uh hit the totally different before we uh hit the record button today, but like many record button today, but like many record button today, but like many things, especially in the Christian things, especially in the Christian things, especially in the Christian life, it's like this tension of balance. life, it's like this tension of balance. life, it's like this tension of balance. And so if we only focus on growing And so if we only focus on growing And so if we only focus on growing people deep and the people who exist, people deep and the people who exist, people deep and the people who exist, well then we're all just going to grow well then we're all just going to grow well then we're all just going to grow old and die together and the church old and die together and the church old and die together and the church won't grow. But if we only focus on won't grow. But if we only focus on won't grow. But if we only focus on growing the group size and getting as growing the group size and getting as growing the group size and getting as many people in as possible and don't many people in as possible and don't many people in as possible and don't invest on people on a deep level, well invest on people on a deep level, well invest on people on a deep level, well then we have this kind of shallow then we have this kind of shallow then we have this kind of shallow version of maybe Christianity. And so version of maybe Christianity. And so version of maybe Christianity. And so finding finding the the the balance of finding finding the the the balance of finding finding the the the balance of those two scales and and managing the those two scales and and managing the those two scales and and managing the tension, I I really do think at at this tension, I I really do think at at this tension, I I really do think at at this moment in church history, that's kind of moment in church history, that's kind of moment in church history, that's kind of the challenge that is before us all. But the challenge that is before us all. But the challenge that is before us all. But you put your finger on something like you put your finger on something like you put your finger on something like very timely and like of utmost very timely and like of utmost very timely and like of utmost importance. I think for for anyone who's importance. I think for for anyone who's importance. I think for for anyone who's working in a church in in the West, in working in a church in in the West, in working in a church in in the West, in America, in Canada, um in in other America, in Canada, um in in other America, in Canada, um in in other places, this is the question. This is places, this is the question. This is places, this is the question. This is one of the pre-minent questions that we one of the pre-minent questions that we one of the pre-minent questions that we wrestle with.

wrestle with. wrestle with. Yeah. To be clear, I'm not trying to, Yeah. To be clear, I'm not trying to, Yeah. To be clear, I'm not trying to, you know, give this indictment of like you know, give this indictment of like you know, give this indictment of like trying to grow your church. It's this trying to grow your church. It's this trying to grow your church. It's this isn't a problem to solve, but attention isn't a problem to solve, but attention isn't a problem to solve, but attention to manage. As Alex alluded to, when we to manage. As Alex alluded to, when we to manage. As Alex alluded to, when we talk about social media strategies on talk about social media strategies on talk about social media strategies on this podcast, we talk about using social this podcast, we talk about using social this podcast, we talk about using social to introduce your church to new people to introduce your church to new people to introduce your church to new people for the first time with the intention of for the first time with the intention of for the first time with the intention of introducing them to Jesus and connecting introducing them to Jesus and connecting introducing them to Jesus and connecting them to your local church. So, it's not them to your local church. So, it's not them to your local church. So, it's not that we don't aspire to that. It's more that we don't aspire to that. It's more that we don't aspire to that. It's more about setting the ultimate outcome as about setting the ultimate outcome as about setting the ultimate outcome as tied quantitatively to the outcome of tied quantitatively to the outcome of tied quantitatively to the outcome of these efforts. these efforts. these efforts. Yeah. That being said, I asked Pastor Yeah. That being said, I asked Pastor Yeah. That being said, I asked Pastor Alex to brainstorm some other Alex to brainstorm some other Alex to brainstorm some other quantitative goals. What do you have for quantitative goals. What do you have for quantitative goals. What do you have for me, pastor? me, pastor? me, pastor? Well, I I was really um motivated by Well, I I was really um motivated by Well, I I was really um motivated by this kind of lead lag language that kind this kind of lead lag language that kind this kind of lead lag language that kind of came to the surface in the of came to the surface in the of came to the surface in the conversation there with with Luke on conversation there with with Luke on conversation there with with Luke on Twitter and this idea of okay, Twitter and this idea of okay, Twitter and this idea of okay, quantitative things that we can do that quantitative things that we can do that quantitative things that we can do that we we are responsible. we we can affect we we are responsible. we we can affect we we are responsible. we we can affect this change um this month, this quarter, this change um this month, this quarter, this change um this month, this quarter, this year at our church that will almost this year at our church that will almost this year at our church that will almost certainly have this downstream certainly have this downstream certainly have this downstream um kind of compounding effect on the um kind of compounding effect on the um kind of compounding effect on the believers in our community. So, the believers in our community. So, the believers in our community. So, the first thing I came up with is uh the first thing I came up with is uh the first thing I came up with is uh the goal to establish a young leaders goal to establish a young leaders goal to establish a young leaders coalition is what I called it. Um this coalition is what I called it. Um this coalition is what I called it. Um this is inspired a little bit by Dr. Cara is inspired a little bit by Dr. Cara is inspired a little bit by Dr. Cara Powell. We reference her. It's almost Powell. We reference her. It's almost Powell. We reference her. It's almost comedic how often comedic how often comedic how often her and Ryan her and Ryan her and Ryan in a match who gets referenced more on in a match who gets referenced more on in a match who gets referenced more on this show. Yeah, we've had Dr. Cara on this show. Yeah, we've had Dr. Cara on this show. Yeah, we've had Dr. Cara on the show. Uh she's from the Filler Youth the show. Uh she's from the Filler Youth the show. Uh she's from the Filler Youth Institute. She's published books like Institute. She's published books like Institute. She's published books like Growing Young, Growing With, which is a

Growing Young, Growing With, which is a Growing Young, Growing With, which is a I haven't read it, but it's a book for I haven't read it, but it's a book for I haven't read it, but it's a book for parents um who are parenting the people parents um who are parenting the people parents um who are parenting the people that she's talking about, these these that she's talking about, these these that she's talking about, these these youths. Um and then her newest book, youths. Um and then her newest book, youths. Um and then her newest book, Future Focused Church, but she says Future Focused Church, but she says Future Focused Church, but she says famously, the churches that are growing famously, the churches that are growing famously, the churches that are growing disproportionately prioritize young disproportionately prioritize young disproportionately prioritize young people. We know this. Um, but she says people. We know this. Um, but she says people. We know this. Um, but she says to take it one step further, to take it one step further, to take it one step further, prioritizing young people means giving prioritizing young people means giving prioritizing young people means giving them a loadbearing role. And I heard her them a loadbearing role. And I heard her them a loadbearing role. And I heard her say that this week and that really stuck say that this week and that really stuck say that this week and that really stuck with me because it's easy for me to say with me because it's easy for me to say with me because it's easy for me to say on the show, yeah, you just got to on the show, yeah, you just got to on the show, yeah, you just got to disproportionately prioritize young disproportionately prioritize young disproportionately prioritize young people. But then the question before all people. But then the question before all people. But then the question before all the churches is, okay, what does that the churches is, okay, what does that the churches is, okay, what does that mean? mean? mean? And she says, yeah, it means with And she says, yeah, it means with And she says, yeah, it means with resources, you know, um, but it it also resources, you know, um, but it it also resources, you know, um, but it it also means giving them a loadbearing role, means giving them a loadbearing role, means giving them a loadbearing role, which is something we've already touched which is something we've already touched which is something we've already touched on in this conversation. Um we talk on in this conversation. Um we talk on in this conversation. Um we talk about this often in the context of about this often in the context of about this often in the context of digital ministry and social with with um digital ministry and social with with um digital ministry and social with with um young people. We say, "Yeah, give them young people. We say, "Yeah, give them young people. We say, "Yeah, give them the phone and empower them to run your the phone and empower them to run your the phone and empower them to run your socials and and we talk about that in in socials and and we talk about that in in socials and and we talk about that in in digital ministry." But I want to suggest digital ministry." But I want to suggest digital ministry." But I want to suggest having a a quantitative goal to give having a a quantitative goal to give having a a quantitative goal to give them a spot at the leadership table.

them a spot at the leadership table. them a spot at the leadership table. What I'm not saying is that you need to What I'm not saying is that you need to What I'm not saying is that you need to invite them to elders meetings because invite them to elders meetings because invite them to elders meetings because that's business that doesn't really that's business that doesn't really that's business that doesn't really involve them. Which is why I'm involve them. Which is why I'm involve them. Which is why I'm suggesting maybe set a goal to establish suggesting maybe set a goal to establish suggesting maybe set a goal to establish a young leaders kind of coalition where a young leaders kind of coalition where a young leaders kind of coalition where you give them a seat at the table and you give them a seat at the table and you give them a seat at the table and say, "Hey, we want to hear from you. We say, "Hey, we want to hear from you. We say, "Hey, we want to hear from you. We want to learn from you. We want to learn want to learn from you. We want to learn want to learn from you. We want to learn from your perspective." And then in from your perspective." And then in from your perspective." And then in turn, what that gives them is this thing turn, what that gives them is this thing turn, what that gives them is this thing we've been talking about, which is being we've been talking about, which is being we've been talking about, which is being seen, feeling known, and feeling um I seen, feeling known, and feeling um I seen, feeling known, and feeling um I don't know, you kind of give them the don't know, you kind of give them the don't know, you kind of give them the sense of ownership and belonging and sense of ownership and belonging and sense of ownership and belonging and purpose in your community. And when the purpose in your community. And when the purpose in your community. And when the young people in your community have young people in your community have young people in your community have this, this is this is the lag of this this, this is this is the lag of this this, this is this is the lag of this this idea. When they are empowered in this idea. When they are empowered in this idea. When they are empowered in this way, they will become deeply this way, they will become deeply this way, they will become deeply integrated members into your church integrated members into your church integrated members into your church community because they feel invested. community because they feel invested. community because they feel invested. They feel that, oh, if I didn't do this They feel that, oh, if I didn't do this They feel that, oh, if I didn't do this thing, if I wasn't using my voice in thing, if I wasn't using my voice in thing, if I wasn't using my voice in this community, then we wouldn't be able this community, then we wouldn't be able this community, then we wouldn't be able to do what we're doing. So, they know to do what we're doing. So, they know to do what we're doing. So, they know that they have value because you first that they have value because you first that they have value because you first gave it to them. Now, all of a sudden, gave it to them. Now, all of a sudden, gave it to them. Now, all of a sudden, you have a new generation of people you have a new generation of people you have a new generation of people growing up in faith in your church. that growing up in faith in your church. that growing up in faith in your church. that paves the runway for your church paves the runway for your church paves the runway for your church community to keep doing what you're community to keep doing what you're community to keep doing what you're doing, which is serving the people of doing, which is serving the people of doing, which is serving the people of your county, your area code. Um, your county, your area code. Um, your county, your area code. Um, possibly indefinitely.

possibly indefinitely. possibly indefinitely. Yeah. In my youth group growing up, we Yeah. In my youth group growing up, we Yeah. In my youth group growing up, we had like youth leadership. So, we grew had like youth leadership. So, we grew had like youth leadership. So, we grew to a youth group of like 50 to 80 at our to a youth group of like 50 to 80 at our to a youth group of like 50 to 80 at our at our max in a church of about 300, at our max in a church of about 300, at our max in a church of about 300, which was unusual. which was unusual. which was unusual. And even when we were like 30 people, we And even when we were like 30 people, we And even when we were like 30 people, we had like youth leadership. And basically had like youth leadership. And basically had like youth leadership. And basically like the pastor would approach me like, like the pastor would approach me like, like the pastor would approach me like, "Hey, like you really seem to love "Hey, like you really seem to love "Hey, like you really seem to love coming to youth and care about it. Would coming to youth and care about it. Would coming to youth and care about it. Would you want to be a youth leader?" And it you want to be a youth leader?" And it you want to be a youth leader?" And it would have like certain responsibilities would have like certain responsibilities would have like certain responsibilities and certain like you know insights into and certain like you know insights into and certain like you know insights into what's happening and you'd like get to what's happening and you'd like get to what's happening and you'd like get to have your voice heard in terms of like have your voice heard in terms of like have your voice heard in terms of like decision- making like hey we're trying decision- making like hey we're trying decision- making like hey we're trying to figure out where we want to go on our to figure out where we want to go on our to figure out where we want to go on our uh winter retreat this year. Love a uh winter retreat this year. Love a uh winter retreat this year. Love a Canadian youth winter retreat. We went Canadian youth winter retreat. We went Canadian youth winter retreat. We went here last year. We're thinking about here last year. We're thinking about here last year. We're thinking about going there again. We're also evaluating going there again. We're also evaluating going there again. We're also evaluating this. Like we'd love to hear your this. Like we'd love to hear your this. Like we'd love to hear your thoughts. It wasn't like I was making thoughts. It wasn't like I was making thoughts. It wasn't like I was making the decision on like you know which one the decision on like you know which one the decision on like you know which one we went to but oh we liked this about we went to but oh we liked this about we went to but oh we liked this about last year's here's what maybe we would last year's here's what maybe we would last year's here's what maybe we would like to see improved. and leaving youth like to see improved. and leaving youth like to see improved. and leaving youth group, I went to Bible College, which group, I went to Bible College, which group, I went to Bible College, which then led to ProChurch Tools, which led then led to ProChurch Tools, which led then led to ProChurch Tools, which led 10 years later to episode 850 of this 10 years later to episode 850 of this 10 years later to episode 850 of this podcast. podcast. podcast. All because at the perfect time, in All because at the perfect time, in All because at the perfect time, in those formative years, I was being given those formative years, I was being given those formative years, I was being given more responsibility.

more responsibility. more responsibility. And in turn, that felt like I was being And in turn, that felt like I was being And in turn, that felt like I was being seen more. I was being empowered more, seen more. I was being empowered more, seen more. I was being empowered more, which gave me more confidence, which g which gave me more confidence, which g which gave me more confidence, which g so like at that time of your life, it's so like at that time of your life, it's so like at that time of your life, it's the perfect time. And so love this idea, the perfect time. And so love this idea, the perfect time. And so love this idea, seen it purposefully in my own life. seen it purposefully in my own life. seen it purposefully in my own life. Coign. Coign. Coign. Right on. Um, okay. The next one, this Right on. Um, okay. The next one, this Right on. Um, okay. The next one, this one again is quantitative, but I can't one again is quantitative, but I can't one again is quantitative, but I can't set the quantitative goal for you. So, set the quantitative goal for you. So, set the quantitative goal for you. So, the idea is to increase the amount of the idea is to increase the amount of the idea is to increase the amount of people, the amount of voices that get people, the amount of voices that get people, the amount of voices that get amplified in your church. I can't tell amplified in your church. I can't tell amplified in your church. I can't tell you by what measure you should aim to you by what measure you should aim to you by what measure you should aim to increase that. You can set it if you increase that. You can set it if you increase that. You can set it if you want, but we know this that the average want, but we know this that the average want, but we know this that the average church size in America is less than 100 church size in America is less than 100 church size in America is less than 100 people. And I I belong and pastor in one people. And I I belong and pastor in one people. And I I belong and pastor in one of those churches. I am familiar with a of those churches. I am familiar with a of those churches. I am familiar with a lot of the church those churches. So lot of the church those churches. So lot of the church those churches. So what I know about most churches in what I know about most churches in what I know about most churches in America just by those numbers is that America just by those numbers is that America just by those numbers is that there is primarily one maybe two voices there is primarily one maybe two voices there is primarily one maybe two voices in the church community who usually get in the church community who usually get in the church community who usually get the microphone and get amplified to the microphone and get amplified to the microphone and get amplified to speak into that space. Um you know the speak into that space. Um you know the speak into that space. Um you know the result is result is result is that representing a community you that representing a community you that representing a community you usually only have then one or two voices usually only have then one or two voices usually only have then one or two voices that get to speak into the identity of that get to speak into the identity of that get to speak into the identity of the community. Um, but I think that in the community. Um, but I think that in the community. Um, but I think that in its in its most beautiful form, the its in its most beautiful form, the its in its most beautiful form, the church is an it's a mosaic of all church is an it's a mosaic of all church is an it's a mosaic of all different folks from all different different folks from all different different folks from all different places with what's most important, all places with what's most important, all places with what's most important, all different experiences of the thing that different experiences of the thing that different experiences of the thing that we share, which is like the experience we share, which is like the experience we share, which is like the experience of life and faith in life. Um, and so I of life and faith in life. Um, and so I of life and faith in life. Um, and so I think there's great reward in a think there's great reward in a think there's great reward in a community that um there's great reward community that um there's great reward community that um there's great reward in a community of faith of amplifying in a community of faith of amplifying in a community of faith of amplifying more voices than just one or two. So, I

more voices than just one or two. So, I more voices than just one or two. So, I have a couple practical ideas. Um, one have a couple practical ideas. Um, one have a couple practical ideas. Um, one is to simply give the responsibility of is to simply give the responsibility of is to simply give the responsibility of like scripture reading or prayer or like scripture reading or prayer or like scripture reading or prayer or announcements. These smaller bits, these announcements. These smaller bits, these announcements. These smaller bits, these um uh they're they're low investment low um uh they're they're low investment low um uh they're they're low investment low risk because there is a risk anytime risk because there is a risk anytime risk because there is a risk anytime someone picks up a microphone if we're someone picks up a microphone if we're someone picks up a microphone if we're just being honest. just being honest. just being honest. And so they're they're lowrisk And so they're they're lowrisk And so they're they're lowrisk opportunities to empower literally opportunities to empower literally opportunities to empower literally anyone in the community. We started anyone in the community. We started anyone in the community. We started doing this at our well we've done this doing this at our well we've done this doing this at our well we've done this but we have started um pushing the but we have started um pushing the but we have started um pushing the margins of of who we will give a margins of of who we will give a margins of of who we will give a microphone to and it's just hilarious microphone to and it's just hilarious microphone to and it's just hilarious when you give a microphone to a child to when you give a microphone to a child to when you give a microphone to a child to read a scripture reading or read a read a scripture reading or read a read a scripture reading or read a prayer. It's like that was hilarious and prayer. It's like that was hilarious and prayer. It's like that was hilarious and they fumbled through it and they missed they fumbled through it and they missed they fumbled through it and they missed a whole part and it was beautiful. And a whole part and it was beautiful. And a whole part and it was beautiful. And so that's that's lowrisk high reward is so that's that's lowrisk high reward is so that's that's lowrisk high reward is just spreading out the wealth for these just spreading out the wealth for these just spreading out the wealth for these these smaller bits of your service that these smaller bits of your service that these smaller bits of your service that usually get amplified. you know, you've usually get amplified. you know, you've usually get amplified. you know, you've got a microphone for reading the got a microphone for reading the got a microphone for reading the scripture and doing the prayers and scripture and doing the prayers and scripture and doing the prayers and whatever. Spread the wealth a little whatever. Spread the wealth a little whatever. Spread the wealth a little bit. It doesn't have to be one person bit. It doesn't have to be one person bit. It doesn't have to be one person doing it every weekend. Um, doing it every weekend. Um, doing it every weekend. Um, next is probably the deepest investment, next is probably the deepest investment, next is probably the deepest investment, which is to identify someone in your which is to identify someone in your which is to identify someone in your community that has the gift or the grace community that has the gift or the grace community that has the gift or the grace of teaching and choose to invest in them of teaching and choose to invest in them of teaching and choose to invest in them to become part of your like regular to become part of your like regular to become part of your like regular teaching roa. And I know that that is a teaching roa. And I know that that is a teaching roa. And I know that that is a big ask. It's a big investment. It is a big ask. It's a big investment. It is a big ask. It's a big investment. It is a bigger risk.

bigger risk. bigger risk. The the trade-off is then you're The the trade-off is then you're The the trade-off is then you're preaching less. So it does have a big, preaching less. So it does have a big, preaching less. So it does have a big, you know, time reward. you know, time reward. you know, time reward. Yeah. And I know that because like we're Yeah. And I know that because like we're Yeah. And I know that because like we're in the midst of that right now. So I in the midst of that right now. So I in the midst of that right now. So I know what that feels like. But the risk know what that feels like. But the risk know what that feels like. But the risk versus reward, not just to, yes, to the versus reward, not just to, yes, to the versus reward, not just to, yes, to the senior leader who's going to get a senior leader who's going to get a senior leader who's going to get a little bit of respit, but also to the little bit of respit, but also to the little bit of respit, but also to the community, it's like it pays everyone community, it's like it pays everyone community, it's like it pays everyone back. back. back. Um, this third one might be my favorite. Um, this third one might be my favorite. Um, this third one might be my favorite. Oh, Oh, Oh, and it's to incorporate more panel style and it's to incorporate more panel style and it's to incorporate more panel style Q&As in your Sunday service. Let me give Q&As in your Sunday service. Let me give Q&As in your Sunday service. Let me give you an example. you an example. you an example. And you know what? Summer is the perfect And you know what? Summer is the perfect And you know what? Summer is the perfect time for this. Churches love this in the time for this. Churches love this in the time for this. Churches love this in the summer. This is being published in the summer. This is being published in the summer. This is being published in the summer. Hey. summer. Hey. summer. Hey. Yeah. And so let me give you a perfect Yeah. And so let me give you a perfect Yeah. And so let me give you a perfect example of the lead lag element of this. example of the lead lag element of this. example of the lead lag element of this. So a few weeks ago, there are two people So a few weeks ago, there are two people So a few weeks ago, there are two people from two different walks of life. They from two different walks of life. They from two different walks of life. They didn't know each other previously. They didn't know each other previously. They didn't know each other previously. They both ended up working at this local both ended up working at this local both ended up working at this local organization in Wellland. It's a it's a organization in Wellland. It's a it's a organization in Wellland. It's a it's a food bank. A massive food bank. food bank. A massive food bank. food bank. A massive food bank. So in our area, big old food bank. So in our area, big old food bank. So in our area, big old food bank. Okay. Okay. Okay. They both belong to our church and they They both belong to our church and they They both belong to our church and they both are working at this food bank. And both are working at this food bank. And both are working at this food bank. And I just as a pastor, I just have my I just as a pastor, I just have my I just as a pastor, I just have my pastor senses out and about. you know, pastor senses out and about. you know, pastor senses out and about. you know, Pastor Pulse, right? And I realized, oh, Pastor Pulse, right? And I realized, oh, Pastor Pulse, right? And I realized, oh, these two folks both work at this food these two folks both work at this food these two folks both work at this food bank. This food bank's doing amazing bank. This food bank's doing amazing bank. This food bank's doing amazing work in our region. These two folks love work in our region. These two folks love work in our region. These two folks love what they do. Our church deserves to what they do. Our church deserves to what they do. Our church deserves to hear about this. So, a couple Sundays hear about this. So, a couple Sundays hear about this. So, a couple Sundays ago, I had them come up after worship uh ago, I had them come up after worship uh ago, I had them come up after worship uh before the message before the message before the message together.

together. together. Yeah. Nice. um some bar stools and just Yeah. Nice. um some bar stools and just Yeah. Nice. um some bar stools and just it was it was a by design maybe like an it was it was a by design maybe like an it was it was a by design maybe like an 8 or 12 minute conversation 8 or 12 minute conversation 8 or 12 minute conversation and I we've gone through on this show and I we've gone through on this show and I we've gone through on this show ages ago ages ago ages ago questioning examples for having uh for questioning examples for having uh for questioning examples for having uh for doing a testimony interview. Do you doing a testimony interview. Do you doing a testimony interview. Do you remember that show? remember that show? remember that show? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I employed some of those tactics for I employed some of those tactics for I employed some of those tactics for this conversation. this conversation. this conversation. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. And the way that the conversation went And the way that the conversation went And the way that the conversation went was it ended in tears. It was beautiful. was it ended in tears. It was beautiful. was it ended in tears. It was beautiful. Everyone was crying. I could not have I Everyone was crying. I could not have I Everyone was crying. I could not have I couldn't have led it there on my own. I couldn't have led it there on my own. I couldn't have led it there on my own. I just I I set it up to let them lead us just I I set it up to let them lead us just I I set it up to let them lead us there. there. there. Not manufactured, not scripted, just Not manufactured, not scripted, just Not manufactured, not scripted, just hey, other voices. And that's what hey, other voices. And that's what hey, other voices. And that's what happened. happened. happened. It was amazing. So, It was amazing. So, It was amazing. So, and how fresh and novel was that in the and how fresh and novel was that in the and how fresh and novel was that in the context of like a weekly service? context of like a weekly service? context of like a weekly service? Yeah, exactly. So, it kind of disrupted Yeah, exactly. So, it kind of disrupted Yeah, exactly. So, it kind of disrupted our our weekly rhythm in a positive our our weekly rhythm in a positive our our weekly rhythm in a positive sense, which was amazing for us. And sense, which was amazing for us. And sense, which was amazing for us. And then downstream of that, I can't that then downstream of that, I can't that then downstream of that, I can't that day I had multiple conversations with day I had multiple conversations with day I had multiple conversations with people saying, "Hey, I didn't know soand people saying, "Hey, I didn't know soand people saying, "Hey, I didn't know soand so worked there. Hey, I didn't know that so worked there. Hey, I didn't know that so worked there. Hey, I didn't know that they did this. Hey, I didn't know this.

they did this. Hey, I didn't know this. they did this. Hey, I didn't know this. And then a few weeks later, guess what? And then a few weeks later, guess what? And then a few weeks later, guess what? Our youth group is now in a few weeks Our youth group is now in a few weeks Our youth group is now in a few weeks going on one Saturday to volunteer at going on one Saturday to volunteer at going on one Saturday to volunteer at this food bank because the woman who was this food bank because the woman who was this food bank because the woman who was on stage said, "Hey, there's always an on stage said, "Hey, there's always an on stage said, "Hey, there's always an open opportunity to volunteer." So, all open opportunity to volunteer." So, all open opportunity to volunteer." So, all of this good formative Christian stuff of this good formative Christian stuff of this good formative Christian stuff happens downstream just because we chose happens downstream just because we chose happens downstream just because we chose to amplify a different voice than we to amplify a different voice than we to amplify a different voice than we normally do. normally do. normally do. 100%. And it starts with this like 100%. And it starts with this like 100%. And it starts with this like quantitative quantitative quantitative uh target uh target uh target and it translates into like real and it translates into like real and it translates into like real ministry. If you hear words like ministry. If you hear words like ministry. If you hear words like quantitative and like goal and strategy quantitative and like goal and strategy quantitative and like goal and strategy and and you're a little bit like and and you're a little bit like and and you're a little bit like standoffish from that, the whole point standoffish from that, the whole point standoffish from that, the whole point is to basically set up moments like this is to basically set up moments like this is to basically set up moments like this that are not like scripted or that are not like scripted or that are not like scripted or manufactured, but it leads to real manufactured, but it leads to real manufactured, but it leads to real spiritual growth and formation. Um Alex spiritual growth and formation. Um Alex spiritual growth and formation. Um Alex talked about ways to do this from stage talked about ways to do this from stage talked about ways to do this from stage on Sunday. What's amazing about social on Sunday. What's amazing about social on Sunday. What's amazing about social platforms is that there are 167 hours platforms is that there are 167 hours platforms is that there are 167 hours beyond Sunday. So, a church DM'd me this beyond Sunday. So, a church DM'd me this beyond Sunday. So, a church DM'd me this week a reel they did for Father's Day week a reel they did for Father's Day week a reel they did for Father's Day and they said, "Check out this re and it and they said, "Check out this re and it and they said, "Check out this re and it was this really fun one where they were was this really fun one where they were was this really fun one where they were stopping dads on Sunday at Father's Day, stopping dads on Sunday at Father's Day, stopping dads on Sunday at Father's Day, I'm sure." And they handed them a mic I'm sure." And they handed them a mic I'm sure." And they handed them a mic and said, "Tell me your best dad joke."

and said, "Tell me your best dad joke." and said, "Tell me your best dad joke." And it was just like five dads back to And it was just like five dads back to And it was just like five dads back to back to back. Uh surely dads that are back to back. Uh surely dads that are back to back. Uh surely dads that are not usually on stage leading worship or not usually on stage leading worship or not usually on stage leading worship or whatever. Yeah. And so now on social whatever. Yeah. And so now on social whatever. Yeah. And so now on social you're seeing people that you wouldn't you're seeing people that you wouldn't you're seeing people that you wouldn't normally see. And that's what we're normally see. And that's what we're normally see. And that's what we're trying to accomplish here, right? puts trying to accomplish here, right? puts trying to accomplish here, right? puts spotlights on people who almost never spotlights on people who almost never spotlights on people who almost never are in the spotlight because everyone's are in the spotlight because everyone's are in the spotlight because everyone's journey with Christ has its own journey with Christ has its own journey with Christ has its own testimony and then hundreds of thousands testimony and then hundreds of thousands testimony and then hundreds of thousands of many testimonies within their life of many testimonies within their life of many testimonies within their life and lived experiences and the more that and lived experiences and the more that and lived experiences and the more that we share that the more we get that we share that the more we get that we share that the more we get that mosaic and you don't need to just limit mosaic and you don't need to just limit mosaic and you don't need to just limit it to Sunday where yes okay finding a it to Sunday where yes okay finding a it to Sunday where yes okay finding a new person to preach that's a big task new person to preach that's a big task new person to preach that's a big task even swapping out someone for the even swapping out someone for the even swapping out someone for the announcements like do all those things announcements like do all those things announcements like do all those things and then also remember there's so much and then also remember there's so much and then also remember there's so much time outside of Sunday within social time outside of Sunday within social time outside of Sunday within social that you can use that's more real estate that you can use that's more real estate that you can use that's more real estate Mhm. I got two more. You want to do Mhm. I got two more. You want to do Mhm. I got two more. You want to do both? You want to do one more? both? You want to do one more? both? You want to do one more? Uh, choose your favorite. Uh, choose your favorite. Uh, choose your favorite. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Third one and final one Okay. Third one and final one Okay. Third one and final one is to institute a staff sabbatical is to institute a staff sabbatical is to institute a staff sabbatical policy. policy. policy. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, for those of us not familiar, Okay. So, for those of us not familiar, Okay. So, for those of us not familiar, a sabbatical is like a prolonged period a sabbatical is like a prolonged period a sabbatical is like a prolonged period of time off. Um, there's precedence for of time off. Um, there's precedence for of time off. Um, there's precedence for this in like academia. professors will this in like academia. professors will this in like academia. professors will take um sbaticals, but it's it's pretty take um sbaticals, but it's it's pretty take um sbaticals, but it's it's pretty like um church ccentric where uh uh like um church ccentric where uh uh like um church ccentric where uh uh usually a senior pastor will get usually a senior pastor will get usually a senior pastor will get halfhazardly sometimes uh sometimes uh halfhazardly sometimes uh sometimes uh halfhazardly sometimes uh sometimes uh out of necessity maybe out of a on the out of necessity maybe out of a on the out of necessity maybe out of a on the heels of a season of burnout some some heels of a season of burnout some some heels of a season of burnout some some prolonged period of time off um you know prolonged period of time off um you know prolonged period of time off um you know Luke's church we mentioned it 2,000 Luke's church we mentioned it 2,000 Luke's church we mentioned it 2,000 people um 43 staff 18 full-time so a lot

people um 43 staff 18 full-time so a lot people um 43 staff 18 full-time so a lot of people working in church full-time of people working in church full-time of people working in church full-time And I was inspired about this by uh a And I was inspired about this by uh a And I was inspired about this by uh a guy I follow on Twitter called Jason guy I follow on Twitter called Jason guy I follow on Twitter called Jason Kovac. He's the executive director at Kovac. He's the executive director at Kovac. He's the executive director at the um Gospel Care Collective. It's a the um Gospel Care Collective. It's a the um Gospel Care Collective. It's a biblical counseling service. And he um biblical counseling service. And he um biblical counseling service. And he um is actually really uh skilled at the is actually really uh skilled at the is actually really uh skilled at the Twitter thread style of of content much Twitter thread style of of content much Twitter thread style of of content much in the same way that that Luke is. And in the same way that that Luke is. And in the same way that that Luke is. And he talks a lot about sbaticals and he talks a lot about sbaticals and he talks a lot about sbaticals and creating a sbatical policy at your creating a sbatical policy at your creating a sbatical policy at your church so that it is a a codified rhythm church so that it is a a codified rhythm church so that it is a a codified rhythm of rest built in to promote health um of rest built in to promote health um of rest built in to promote health um from the top down because pastors are from the top down because pastors are from the top down because pastors are they do unique work. It's not unique in they do unique work. It's not unique in they do unique work. It's not unique in the sense that they're the only the only the sense that they're the only the only the sense that they're the only the only vocation in the world doing this, but vocation in the world doing this, but vocation in the world doing this, but it's unique in the sense that they are it's unique in the sense that they are it's unique in the sense that they are are constantly consumed with the sole are constantly consumed with the sole are constantly consumed with the sole care of other people to the point where care of other people to the point where care of other people to the point where pastors don't always get the opportunity pastors don't always get the opportunity pastors don't always get the opportunity to answer the question, how is your soul to answer the question, how is your soul to answer the question, how is your soul doing? And so building a sbatical policy doing? And so building a sbatical policy doing? And so building a sbatical policy into like codifying it into your into like codifying it into your into like codifying it into your policies as at as a church baking it in policies as at as a church baking it in policies as at as a church baking it in really paves the runway again for like really paves the runway again for like really paves the runway again for like infinite health as a senior leader which infinite health as a senior leader which infinite health as a senior leader which is going to serve your senior leader and is going to serve your senior leader and is going to serve your senior leader and your congregation. So um Jason says a your congregation. So um Jason says a your congregation. So um Jason says a sbatical is not a vacation and the the sbatical is not a vacation and the the sbatical is not a vacation and the the precedents in academia would would precedents in academia would would precedents in academia would would affirm that which is like when you're a affirm that which is like when you're a affirm that which is like when you're a professor and you take a sbatical it's professor and you take a sbatical it's professor and you take a sbatical it's usually so that you can just go away to usually so that you can just go away to usually so that you can just go away to Bali or whatever and research for 6 Bali or whatever and research for 6 Bali or whatever and research for 6 months

months months right it's always like study right it's always like study right it's always like study focused and so it's the same thing in focused and so it's the same thing in focused and so it's the same thing in the church context which is like okay a the church context which is like okay a the church context which is like okay a sbatical is not just a vacation where sbatical is not just a vacation where sbatical is not just a vacation where you get to I don't know go to Bali and you get to I don't know go to Bali and you get to I don't know go to Bali and not do research it's where you just get not do research it's where you just get not do research it's where you just get to like retreat to your family to your to like retreat to your family to your to like retreat to your family to your home to wherever and um how does Jason home to wherever and um how does Jason home to wherever and um how does Jason say it rest, renew and recreate. So say it rest, renew and recreate. So say it rest, renew and recreate. So um these are suggestions from from um these are suggestions from from um these are suggestions from from Jason. He says the length of the Jason. He says the length of the Jason. He says the length of the sobatical can be flexible but a good sobatical can be flexible but a good sobatical can be flexible but a good starting point is 2 months for every 5 starting point is 2 months for every 5 starting point is 2 months for every 5 years for of employment or 3 months for years for of employment or 3 months for years for of employment or 3 months for every seven years. He does have one more every seven years. He does have one more every seven years. He does have one more suggestion which is a little bit suggestion which is a little bit suggestion which is a little bit generous which is 1 and a half days of generous which is 1 and a half days of generous which is 1 and a half days of sabbatical time for every month worked. sabbatical time for every month worked. sabbatical time for every month worked. H so it's like he posted about that on H so it's like he posted about that on H so it's like he posted about that on Twitter and someone responded. They're Twitter and someone responded. They're Twitter and someone responded. They're like that's too generous. And Jason's like that's too generous. And Jason's like that's too generous. And Jason's like, "Yeah, that's the point." Because like, "Yeah, that's the point." Because like, "Yeah, that's the point." Because so many pastors fall prey to burnout. so many pastors fall prey to burnout. so many pastors fall prey to burnout. And he's like, "Okay, how can we prevent And he's like, "Okay, how can we prevent And he's like, "Okay, how can we prevent this so that we have healthy communities this so that we have healthy communities this so that we have healthy communities that can maintain homeostasis without that can maintain homeostasis without that can maintain homeostasis without going beyond the margin of what is going beyond the margin of what is going beyond the margin of what is healthy and then taking a sbatical healthy and then taking a sbatical healthy and then taking a sbatical because you were going to die if you because you were going to die if you because you were going to die if you didn't and then coming back and falling didn't and then coming back and falling didn't and then coming back and falling into the same pitfalls."

into the same pitfalls." into the same pitfalls." Um, and so he suggests that it's Um, and so he suggests that it's Um, and so he suggests that it's actually required. So you bake it into actually required. So you bake it into actually required. So you bake it into like the employment agreement that staff like the employment agreement that staff like the employment agreement that staff should be required to take a sbatical should be required to take a sbatical should be required to take a sbatical for refreshment and renewal every five for refreshment and renewal every five for refreshment and renewal every five to seven years. You can sort out how to seven years. You can sort out how to seven years. You can sort out how like what are the limits to that how you like what are the limits to that how you like what are the limits to that how you can chop it up if it is the one and a can chop it up if it is the one and a can chop it up if it is the one and a half days how you can spend them but half days how you can spend them but half days how you can spend them but every 5 to seven years you must take every 5 to seven years you must take every 5 to seven years you must take time to retreat rest time to retreat rest time to retreat rest and that encourages them to use it. It and that encourages them to use it. It and that encourages them to use it. It actually requires them to use it and you actually requires them to use it and you actually requires them to use it and you know provides this healthy work rest know provides this healthy work rest know provides this healthy work rest rhythm which we know is baked into rhythm which we know is baked into rhythm which we know is baked into creation. We know it's baked into the creation. We know it's baked into the creation. We know it's baked into the creation story. It's the gospel creation story. It's the gospel creation story. It's the gospel narrative. Yet sometimes we deceive narrative. Yet sometimes we deceive narrative. Yet sometimes we deceive ourselves to believe that we are immune ourselves to believe that we are immune ourselves to believe that we are immune to it. And when we believe that lie and to it. And when we believe that lie and to it. And when we believe that lie and we in inevitably um you know get we in inevitably um you know get we in inevitably um you know get destroyed by that lie, our communities destroyed by that lie, our communities destroyed by that lie, our communities are the ones that suffer. And so you can are the ones that suffer. And so you can are the ones that suffer. And so you can set this quantitative goal to write a set this quantitative goal to write a set this quantitative goal to write a sobatical policy into your employment sobatical policy into your employment sobatical policy into your employment agreement at your church so that you agreement at your church so that you agreement at your church so that you protect the community. This is all protect the community. This is all protect the community. This is all downstream, right? You write the policy, downstream, right? You write the policy, downstream, right? You write the policy, you abide by it so that everything that you abide by it so that everything that you abide by it so that everything that happens downstream from that happens downstream from that happens downstream from that is is sheltered from hopefully sheltered is is sheltered from hopefully sheltered is is sheltered from hopefully sheltered from, you know, somebody working too from, you know, somebody working too from, you know, somebody working too hard that they just burn themselves out hard that they just burn themselves out hard that they just burn themselves out and people get hurt in the process. I and people get hurt in the process. I and people get hurt in the process. I almost think of it like couples with almost think of it like couples with almost think of it like couples with like young kids who like prioritize date like young kids who like prioritize date like young kids who like prioritize date nights.

nights. nights. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, "Look, do we have time for They're like, "Look, do we have time for They're like, "Look, do we have time for this?" No. this?" No. this?" No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and we don't like, you know, but but Uh and we don't like, you know, but but Uh and we don't like, you know, but but we're going to do it because we want to we're going to do it because we want to we're going to do it because we want to protect what we have protect what we have protect what we have through this busy season. And you're through this busy season. And you're through this busy season. And you're right, pastors do have this unique work right, pastors do have this unique work right, pastors do have this unique work of this burden of caring for people's of this burden of caring for people's of this burden of caring for people's souls. souls. souls. Three for three, Pastor Alex. I will Three for three, Pastor Alex. I will Three for three, Pastor Alex. I will also co-sign that one as well. uh also co-sign that one as well. uh also co-sign that one as well. uh quantitative goals for your church that quantitative goals for your church that quantitative goals for your church that are better than attendance targets. Uh are better than attendance targets. Uh are better than attendance targets. Uh give Luke D. Simmons a follow on give Luke D. Simmons a follow on give Luke D. Simmons a follow on Twitter. Give this podcast a subscribe Twitter. Give this podcast a subscribe Twitter. Give this podcast a subscribe on your favorite podcast platform of on your favorite podcast platform of on your favorite podcast platform of choice. And thank you for your time, choice. And thank you for your time, choice. And thank you for your time, attention, and trust. We will talk to attention, and trust. We will talk to attention, and trust. We will talk to you next Wednesday. Amen. you next Wednesday. Amen. you next Wednesday. Amen. Struggling to write podcasts? You let me Struggling to write podcasts? You let me Struggling to write podcasts? You let me write the podcast. write the podcast. write the podcast. Okay. First of all, this podcast was Okay. First of all, this podcast was Okay. First of all, this podcast was fully formed without you and I thought fully formed without you and I thought fully formed without you and I thought it'd be a nice addendum. That's true.