Why Young People Leave Churches (New Data)

It's the worship, right? It's got to be It's the worship, right? It's got to be the worship. Maybe the politics, that's the worship. Maybe the politics, that's the worship. Maybe the politics, that's what everyone says now, right? It's too what everyone says now, right? It's too what everyone says now, right? It's too [music] liberal or it's too [music] liberal or it's too [music] liberal or it's too conservative. Or maybe we just need conservative. Or maybe we just need conservative. Or maybe we just need better programs, a hipper youth group, a better programs, a hipper youth group, a better programs, a hipper youth group, a coffee bar. Maybe we need a rebrand. coffee bar. Maybe we need a rebrand. coffee bar. Maybe we need a rebrand. Here's what we now know. Two of the Here's what we now know. Two of the Here's what we now know. Two of the largest religion research organizations largest religion research organizations largest religion research organizations in America, PRRI and Pew, asked more in America, PRRI and Pew, asked more in America, PRRI and Pew, asked more than 80,000 respondents the question, than 80,000 respondents the question, than 80,000 respondents the question, "Why are you [music] actually leaving "Why are you [music] actually leaving "Why are you [music] actually leaving the church?" And independently compiled the church?" And independently compiled the church?" And independently compiled answers. And the number one answer by a answers. And the number one answer by a answers. And the number one answer by a massive margin massive margin massive margin >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> is not one that anyone in church >> is not one that anyone in church >> is not one that anyone in church leadership wants to talk about. It's not leadership wants to talk about. It's not leadership wants to talk about. It's not style, it's not politics, and it's not style, it's not politics, and it's not style, it's not politics, and it's not programs. Today, what the data actually programs. Today, what the data actually programs. Today, what the data actually says about why people [music] leave says about why people [music] leave says about why people [music] leave church, why most pastoral assumptions church, why most pastoral assumptions church, why most pastoral assumptions tend to be wrong, and what if, anything, tend to be wrong, and what if, anything, tend to be wrong, and what if, anything, the church can actually do about it. the church can actually do about it. the church can actually do about it. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Well, hey there. Welcome to the Pro >> Well, hey there. Welcome to the Pro >> Well, hey there. Welcome to the Pro Church Tools Show. We're here to help Church Tools Show. We're here to help Church Tools Show. We're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm Brady Shearer, your host, and I'm always Brady Shearer, your host, and I'm always Brady Shearer, your host, and I'm always with my co-host. We call him Archbishop with my co-host. We call him Archbishop with my co-host. We call him Archbishop Antonio, Bishop Banderas. Most of you Antonio, Bishop Banderas. Most of you Antonio, Bishop Banderas. Most of you know him as Mustache, you tell him to know him as Mustache, you tell him to know him as Mustache, you tell him to mellow. mellow. mellow. >> So, hello. So, this episode today is >> So, hello. So, this episode today is >> So, hello. So, this episode today is built built built on two independent primary sources. Both on two independent primary sources. Both on two independent primary sources. Both of them are very big. Both of them are of them are very big. Both of them are of them are very big. Both of them are methodologically rigorous. They both methodologically rigorous. They both methodologically rigorous. They both arrive at the same conclusion. The first arrive at the same conclusion. The first arrive at the same conclusion. The first one one one is is is from PRRI, from PRRI, from PRRI, which I will now call PRRI, which I will now call PRRI, which I will now call PRRI, >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> Okay. >> sounds nicer. >> sounds nicer. >> sounds nicer. >> Noted. >> Noted. >> Noted. Religious Change in America, published Religious Change in America, published Religious Change in America, published March 2024. This is part of their annual March 2024. This is part of their annual March 2024. This is part of their annual American Values Atlas, which includes American Values Atlas, which includes American Values Atlas, which includes 40,000 plus people annually. It is not 40,000 plus people annually. It is not 40,000 plus people annually. It is not small. It's got a random sample of US small. It's got a random sample of US small. It's got a random sample of US adults, that's the methodology. And they adults, that's the methodology. And they adults, that's the methodology. And they asked those that are religiously asked those that are religiously asked those that are religiously unaffiliated, "Why did you leave your unaffiliated, "Why did you leave your unaffiliated, "Why did you leave your faith? Your childhood faith? You're not faith? Your childhood faith? You're not faith? Your childhood faith? You're not religious anymore. Why'd you leave?" religious anymore. Why'd you leave?" religious anymore. Why'd you leave?" And then source number two from Pew And then source number two from Pew And then source number two from Pew Research Center, Research Center, Research Center, titled Why Do Some Americans Leave Their titled Why Do Some Americans Leave Their titled Why Do Some Americans Leave Their Religion While Others Stay. This is our Religion While Others Stay. This is our Religion While Others Stay. This is our new data published in December 2025. new data published in December 2025. new data published in December 2025. This had two different surveys, This had two different surveys, This had two different surveys, one of 9,000 people in May 2025, one of one of 9,000 people in May 2025, one of one of 9,000 people in May 2025, one of 37,000 people 37,000 people 37,000 people uh in 2023 to 2024. uh in 2023 to 2024. uh in 2023 to 2024. Compiled via random probability Compiled via random probability Compiled via random probability sampling, which gives a margin of error sampling, which gives a margin of error sampling, which gives a margin of error like 1.4 percentage points. like 1.4 percentage points. like 1.4 percentage points. And in this data, asked both why do And in this data, asked both why do And in this data, asked both why do people stay and why do people leave? people stay and why do people leave? people stay and why do people leave? Should I stay or should I go now? Now, Should I stay or should I go now? Now, Should I stay or should I go now? Now, why do two sources matter? If one study why do two sources matter? If one study why do two sources matter? If one study says something, says something, says something, there's always a risk, there's always a risk, there's always a risk, large or small, that there was a large or small, that there was a large or small, that there was a methodological quirk in how the data was methodological quirk in how the data was methodological quirk in how the data was gathered. When you have two independent gathered. When you have two independent gathered. When you have two independent studies studies studies with different methodologies of this with different methodologies of this with different methodologies of this size, right, and different question size, right, and different question size, right, and different question wording, but they still converge on the wording, but they still converge on the wording, but they still converge on the same answer, that's about as close to same answer, that's about as close to same answer, that's about as close to settled as it gets.

settled as it gets. settled as it gets. And that's what we have here, a And that's what we have here, a And that's what we have here, a convergence of these two. convergence of these two. convergence of these two. We're [snorts] going to look at this We're [snorts] going to look at this We're [snorts] going to look at this and we're going to rate and we're going to rate and we're going to rate the findings in different confidence the findings in different confidence the findings in different confidence levels. If you all watched or listened levels. If you all watched or listened levels. If you all watched or listened to last week's episode, you'll be to last week's episode, you'll be to last week's episode, you'll be familiar. Hi. Con, low con, mod con. And familiar. Hi. Con, low con, mod con. And familiar. Hi. Con, low con, mod con. And maybe we'll see some convergence of maybe we'll see some convergence of maybe we'll see some convergence of low mod con. Yes. low mod con. Yes. low mod con. Yes. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> The point here is to say not this is >> The point here is to say not this is >> The point here is to say not this is true and this is false. true and this is false. true and this is false. That there are these binary outcomes That there are these binary outcomes That there are these binary outcomes when it comes to data. when it comes to data. when it comes to data. More to say the best way of interpreting More to say the best way of interpreting More to say the best way of interpreting this is to say we're pretty confident or this is to say we're pretty confident or this is to say we're pretty confident or not very confident, but there might be not very confident, but there might be not very confident, but there might be something there something there something there on this specific outcome finding or on this specific outcome finding or on this specific outcome finding or claim. That's right. claim. That's right. claim. That's right. >> And then we'll talk about what that >> And then we'll talk about what that >> And then we'll talk about what that means for church and what to do about means for church and what to do about means for church and what to do about it. And if you like this format of it. And if you like this format of it. And if you like this format of episode, go to last week, where we're episode, go to last week, where we're episode, go to last week, where we're honing in specifically on Gen Z and honing in specifically on Gen Z and honing in specifically on Gen Z and claims that have been very circulated in claims that have been very circulated in claims that have been very circulated in the church world, but the church world, but the church world, but are probably not true. That's right. are probably not true. That's right. are probably not true. That's right. Well, let's go to our first finding uh Well, let's go to our first finding uh Well, let's go to our first finding uh right out of the gate, high confidence right out of the gate, high confidence right out of the gate, high confidence in this finding, and it is that the in this finding, and it is that the in this finding, and it is that the number one reason people leave church, number one reason people leave church, number one reason people leave church, they simply stop believing.

they simply stop believing. they simply stop believing. A big punctuating note there. So, PRRI, A big punctuating note there. So, PRRI, A big punctuating note there. So, PRRI, see, [snorts] it doesn't sound good. P W see, [snorts] it doesn't sound good. P W see, [snorts] it doesn't sound good. P W R I. R I. R I. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. Found that 67% of religiously Found that 67% of religiously Found that 67% of religiously unaffiliated Americans say they left unaffiliated Americans say they left unaffiliated Americans say they left because they stopped believing in their because they stopped believing in their because they stopped believing in their religion's teachings. religion's teachings. religion's teachings. Pew, 2025. 46% of all who left their Pew, 2025. 46% of all who left their Pew, 2025. 46% of all who left their childhood religion cite stopped childhood religion cite stopped childhood religion cite stopped believing as extremely {slash} very believing as extremely {slash} very believing as extremely {slash} very important. And the trend is getting important. And the trend is getting important. And the trend is getting stronger. P W R I tracked this from 2016 stronger. P W R I tracked this from 2016 stronger. P W R I tracked this from 2016 to 2024. In 2016, to 2024. In 2016, to 2024. In 2016, 60% 6 0 cited stopped believing. 60% 6 0 cited stopped believing. 60% 6 0 cited stopped believing. >> Mhm. 2024, 67 >> Mhm. 2024, 67 >> Mhm. 2024, 67 >> Okay. said stopped believing. So, we're >> Okay. said stopped believing. So, we're >> Okay. said stopped believing. So, we're coming out of the gate with this to coming out of the gate with this to coming out of the gate with this to establish that this is not this factor establish that this is not this factor establish that this is not this factor among many, but that it is the dominant among many, but that it is the dominant among many, but that it is the dominant reason why people leave church, and it reason why people leave church, and it reason why people leave church, and it is cited at higher rates than every is cited at higher rates than every is cited at higher rates than every other factor. other factor. other factor. And it's growing. And it's growing. And it's growing. Why does this matter? Why does this matter? Why does this matter? Most church conversations Most church conversations Most church conversations end up cycling around end up cycling around end up cycling around matters of execution.

matters of execution. matters of execution. >> Mhm. How do we do something? Matters >> Mhm. How do we do something? Matters >> Mhm. How do we do something? Matters related to a specific generation. related to a specific generation. related to a specific generation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The music wasn't good enough. Gen Z The music wasn't good enough. Gen Z The music wasn't good enough. Gen Z dislikes this or that. Millennials dislikes this or that. Millennials dislikes this or that. Millennials dislike this or that. Gen Alpha, it's dislike this or that. Gen Alpha, it's dislike this or that. Gen Alpha, it's all brain rot. How could they ever know all brain rot. How could they ever know all brain rot. How could they ever know anything about God? anything about God? anything about God? The programs weren't relevant enough. The programs weren't relevant enough. The programs weren't relevant enough. Kids ministry needs to be more focused. Kids ministry needs to be more focused. Kids ministry needs to be more focused. The community wasn't warm enough. The community wasn't warm enough. The community wasn't warm enough. Politics, scandals. And some of this has Politics, scandals. And some of this has Politics, scandals. And some of this has merit. We're going to get to some of merit. We're going to get to some of merit. We're going to get to some of those specific items. But, the those specific items. But, the those specific items. But, the unignorable, unassailable fact that your unignorable, unassailable fact that your unignorable, unassailable fact that your specific church specific church specific church plays a role in because you're part of plays a role in because you're part of plays a role in because you're part of the institutional church, the capital C the institutional church, the capital C the institutional church, the capital C church, but like only has so much church, but like only has so much church, but like only has so much control over the demographic trends that control over the demographic trends that control over the demographic trends that are happening in your community is that are happening in your community is that are happening in your community is that people just stopped believing. people just stopped believing. people just stopped believing. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And this is obviously fundamentally a And this is obviously fundamentally a And this is obviously fundamentally a different problem from like the music, different problem from like the music, different problem from like the music, oh I don't want a black box. oh I don't want a black box. oh I don't want a black box. >> loud enough. >> loud enough. >> loud enough. >> Right. Bring back communion. Like stand >> Right. Bring back communion. Like stand >> Right. Bring back communion. Like stand when you read the Bible. Things that all when you read the Bible. Things that all when you read the Bible. Things that all matter, but I don't know, maybe I'm the matter, but I don't know, maybe I'm the matter, but I don't know, maybe I'm the odd one out here.

odd one out here. odd one out here. And maybe you're listening or watching And maybe you're listening or watching And maybe you're listening or watching this episode being like, this episode being like, this episode being like, "Thanks for this finding. This is really "Thanks for this finding. This is really "Thanks for this finding. This is really useful." useful." useful." >> And now what? >> And now what? >> And now what? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Okay, great. Yeah, like the big eureka >> Okay, great. Yeah, like the big eureka >> Okay, great. Yeah, like the big eureka moment, guys. People stopped believing moment, guys. People stopped believing moment, guys. People stopped believing there's reasons they stopped attending there's reasons they stopped attending there's reasons they stopped attending church. I don't I just don't hear this church. I don't I just don't hear this church. I don't I just don't hear this talked about that much, especially not talked about that much, especially not talked about that much, especially not proportionate to proportionate to proportionate to how dominant of a driving force it is how dominant of a driving force it is how dominant of a driving force it is in what we're seeing in our churches. in what we're seeing in our churches. in what we're seeing in our churches. And like And like And like I believe that for me at least, it I believe that for me at least, it I believe that for me at least, it provides a lot of different color provides a lot of different color provides a lot of different color and context and context and context to when I imagine specific people in my to when I imagine specific people in my to when I imagine specific people in my life, family members or friends, and I life, family members or friends, and I life, family members or friends, and I think about, yeah, like I remember going think about, yeah, like I remember going think about, yeah, like I remember going to church with them as a kid, to church with them as a kid, to church with them as a kid, and they're not going anymore. and they're not going anymore. and they're not going anymore. Like what was it? Where did we go wrong? Like what was it? Where did we go wrong? Like what was it? Where did we go wrong? And for most of them, the biggest And for most of them, the biggest And for most of them, the biggest driving factor is probably just, you driving factor is probably just, you driving factor is probably just, you know what? As I got older, I stopped know what? As I got older, I stopped know what? As I got older, I stopped believing in that. believing in that. believing in that. >> Yeah. You know, last week on the show, >> Yeah. You know, last week on the show, >> Yeah. You know, last week on the show, we talked about some kind of we talked about some kind of we talked about some kind of sensationalized headlines about Gen Z in sensationalized headlines about Gen Z in sensationalized headlines about Gen Z in particular, particular, particular, motivated by data in in some senses, motivated by data in in some senses, motivated by data in in some senses, but how those those headlines, it's not but how those those headlines, it's not but how those those headlines, it's not just true to to talking about church, just true to to talking about church, just true to to talking about church, but it's, you know, the headline of of but it's, you know, the headline of of but it's, you know, the headline of of of any piece of content is it's it it of any piece of content is it's it it of any piece of content is it's it it motivates you to to action, and it's motivates you to to action, and it's motivates you to to action, and it's it makes sense to me why it makes sense to me why it makes sense to me why you can't really run this as a headline.

you can't really run this as a headline. you can't really run this as a headline. Um Um Um >> Ah, we did. >> Ah, we did. >> Ah, we did. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Well, yeah, but like >> Well, yeah, but like >> Well, yeah, but like it feels as a, you know, as a I'm a a it feels as a, you know, as a I'm a a it feels as a, you know, as a I'm a a church staff member, volunteer, pastor, church staff member, volunteer, pastor, church staff member, volunteer, pastor, as somebody who as somebody who as somebody who has this burden has this burden has this burden and for most of my waking hours about and for most of my waking hours about and for most of my waking hours about this reality, about folks leaving this reality, about folks leaving this reality, about folks leaving church, church, church, reckoning with the truth of this reckoning with the truth of this reckoning with the truth of this feels deflating in a sense, because I feels deflating in a sense, because I feels deflating in a sense, because I can turn the volume up. I can turn the can turn the volume up. I can turn the can turn the volume up. I can turn the volume down. We can run a new program. volume down. We can run a new program. volume down. We can run a new program. We can change something about the kids We can change something about the kids We can change something about the kids ministry. We can pull all these other ministry. We can pull all these other ministry. We can pull all these other other levers. other levers. other levers. But at the end of the day, But at the end of the day, But at the end of the day, they contribute very little they contribute very little they contribute very little to the overwhelming truth of this, which to the overwhelming truth of this, which to the overwhelming truth of this, which is is is how do you help someone? How do you stop how do you help someone? How do you stop how do you help someone? How do you stop someone from leaving the faith? From someone from leaving the faith? From someone from leaving the faith? From unbelieving? That's a little bit more unbelieving? That's a little bit more unbelieving? That's a little bit more perplexing than dealing with some of the perplexing than dealing with some of the perplexing than dealing with some of the granular bits of execution. Yeah, we can granular bits of execution. Yeah, we can granular bits of execution. Yeah, we can pull this lever. We can do this thing. I pull this lever. We can do this thing. I pull this lever. We can do this thing. I can action on this. But when it comes to can action on this. But when it comes to can action on this. But when it comes to reckoning with this data that says reckoning with this data that says reckoning with this data that says most folks who don't go to church simply most folks who don't go to church simply most folks who don't go to church simply stop believing, which when you say it stop believing, which when you say it stop believing, which when you say it out loud is like well, obviously. If no out loud is like well, obviously. If no out loud is like well, obviously. If no wonder.

wonder. wonder. But when when you reckon with that, it But when when you reckon with that, it But when when you reckon with that, it kind of leaves you maybe at at at a bit kind of leaves you maybe at at at a bit kind of leaves you maybe at at at a bit of a loss or with a lot more work to do, of a loss or with a lot more work to do, of a loss or with a lot more work to do, a lot more discernment ahead of you than a lot more discernment ahead of you than a lot more discernment ahead of you than just say that yeah, we can turn the just say that yeah, we can turn the just say that yeah, we can turn the house music down. house music down. house music down. Yeah, and we're not going to um Yeah, and we're not going to um Yeah, and we're not going to um leave you in that place. Yeah. If you do leave you in that place. Yeah. If you do leave you in that place. Yeah. If you do want to watch a YouTube video though want to watch a YouTube video though want to watch a YouTube video though about turning the music down. about turning the music down. about turning the music down. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> We did a separate video >> We did a separate video >> We did a separate video on the Brady Shearer channel where we on the Brady Shearer channel where we on the Brady Shearer channel where we went through 18,000 pages of our church went through 18,000 pages of our church went through 18,000 pages of our church uh music logs and determined if when uh music logs and determined if when uh music logs and determined if when people complained about the music being people complained about the music being people complained about the music being too loud, if they were right or too loud, if they were right or too loud, if they were right or empirically wrong. And then we told them empirically wrong. And then we told them empirically wrong. And then we told them data says you're wrong. And they left data says you're wrong. And they left data says you're wrong. And they left the church. the church. the church. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That YouTube That YouTube video does >> That YouTube That YouTube video does >> That YouTube That YouTube video does exist, but tongue-in-cheek answer to the exist, but tongue-in-cheek answer to the exist, but tongue-in-cheek answer to the solution at the end. So, you can go solution at the end. So, you can go solution at the end. So, you can go track that down. track that down. track that down. Um Um Um we're going to get to actual things you we're going to get to actual things you we're going to get to actual things you can do. Yeah. And things that I believe can do. Yeah. And things that I believe can do. Yeah. And things that I believe will meaningfully move the needle. will meaningfully move the needle. will meaningfully move the needle. But the starting point of the But the starting point of the But the starting point of the conversation needs to be this. And conversation needs to be this. And conversation needs to be this. And that's what I don't think is happening. that's what I don't think is happening. that's what I don't think is happening. I think the starting point of the I think the starting point of the I think the starting point of the conversation is like these individual conversation is like these individual conversation is like these individual choices that we can make where we have choices that we can make where we have choices that we can make where we have full ultimate control.

full ultimate control. full ultimate control. But I think we're kidding ourselves if But I think we're kidding ourselves if But I think we're kidding ourselves if that's where the conversation exists that's where the conversation exists that's where the conversation exists because it means that we're turning a because it means that we're turning a because it means that we're turning a blind eye to the actual fundamental root blind eye to the actual fundamental root blind eye to the actual fundamental root issue. issue. issue. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, if we begin the conversation with So, if we begin the conversation with So, if we begin the conversation with the true fundamental issue the true fundamental issue the true fundamental issue and are aware of it, and are aware of it, and are aware of it, sure, at the beginning it's deflating. sure, at the beginning it's deflating. sure, at the beginning it's deflating. Okay, I understand, but let's be honest Okay, I understand, but let's be honest Okay, I understand, but let's be honest and then we can get to what actually and then we can get to what actually and then we can get to what actually moves the needle in light of that, moves the needle in light of that, moves the needle in light of that, which I think has a greater chance of which I think has a greater chance of which I think has a greater chance of actually making a difference actually making a difference actually making a difference than putting maybe false belief than putting maybe false belief than putting maybe false belief in a much smaller program change that in a much smaller program change that in a much smaller program change that maybe moves the needle for a few people, maybe moves the needle for a few people, maybe moves the needle for a few people, but doesn't at all address this but doesn't at all address this but doesn't at all address this underlying root issue for 2/3 of people underlying root issue for 2/3 of people underlying root issue for 2/3 of people that left the faith. that left the faith. that left the faith. >> Yeah. So, speaking of these 2/3, let's >> Yeah. So, speaking of these 2/3, let's >> Yeah. So, speaking of these 2/3, let's talk about our next finding. Again, high talk about our next finding. Again, high talk about our next finding. Again, high confidence in this finding. Talking confidence in this finding. Talking confidence in this finding. Talking about how they leave the church. And the about how they leave the church. And the about how they leave the church. And the confidence that the finding is that it's confidence that the finding is that it's confidence that the finding is that it's a quiet exit. It's more of like a drift a quiet exit. It's more of like a drift a quiet exit. It's more of like a drift and less about like high drama. Right. and less about like high drama. Right. and less about like high drama. Right. So, if [snorts] we establish that people So, if [snorts] we establish that people So, if [snorts] we establish that people are leaving the church because they are leaving the church because they are leaving the church because they stopped believing, why did you stop stopped believing, why did you stop stopped believing, why did you stop believing? And here are the numbers, believing? And here are the numbers, believing? And here are the numbers, Pew, December 2025. Among all who left Pew, December 2025. Among all who left Pew, December 2025. Among all who left their childhood religion, 38% said, "It their childhood religion, 38% said, "It their childhood religion, 38% said, "It just wasn't important in my life."

just wasn't important in my life." just wasn't important in my life." 38% said, "I just gradually drifted 38% said, "I just gradually drifted 38% said, "I just gradually drifted away." Humans are wired to focus on the Humans are wired to focus on the dramatic. dramatic. dramatic. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Right? There's the Right? There's the Right? There's the social understanding of the quiet social understanding of the quiet social understanding of the quiet majority. majority. majority. The people that are not going to make a The people that are not going to make a The people that are not going to make a fuss, who all largely believe the same fuss, who all largely believe the same fuss, who all largely believe the same thing, who don't get the focus thing, who don't get the focus thing, who don't get the focus or the spotlight because they're quiet. or the spotlight because they're quiet. or the spotlight because they're quiet. >> No drama. Right. We all know the story >> No drama. Right. We all know the story >> No drama. Right. We all know the story of the person who left the church and of the person who left the church and of the person who left the church and made a big deal about leaving. made a big deal about leaving. made a big deal about leaving. >> yeah. And >> yeah. And >> yeah. And I think focusing too much on that person I think focusing too much on that person I think focusing too much on that person is probably is probably is probably at the neglect at the neglect at the neglect of the overall of the overall of the overall and larger majority majority of people and larger majority majority of people and larger majority majority of people who just kind of be like, "Yeah, you who just kind of be like, "Yeah, you who just kind of be like, "Yeah, you know, over time, just kind of like know, over time, just kind of like know, over time, just kind of like drifted away. Just kind of became like drifted away. Just kind of became like drifted away. Just kind of became like And that's how beliefs change, right?" And that's how beliefs change, right?" And that's how beliefs change, right?" Beliefs don't change usually where one Beliefs don't change usually where one Beliefs don't change usually where one day you wake up and go, "You know what? day you wake up and go, "You know what? day you wake up and go, "You know what? I'm going to take a big right turn. I'm going to take a big right turn. I'm going to take a big right turn. It's this like slow shift. There's the It's this like slow shift. There's the It's this like slow shift. There's the famous analogy of the frog in the famous analogy of the frog in the famous analogy of the frog in the boiling water, where you can see a boiling water, where you can see a boiling water, where you can see a dramatic change in the temperature dramatic change in the temperature dramatic change in the temperature of where you're residing, but it only of where you're residing, but it only of where you're residing, but it only occurs when it happens at a gradual occurs when it happens at a gradual occurs when it happens at a gradual pace. If it happened all at once, the pace. If it happened all at once, the pace. If it happened all at once, the frog gets dropped in the boiling water frog gets dropped in the boiling water frog gets dropped in the boiling water and jumps out right away because it's and jumps out right away because it's and jumps out right away because it's like something is wrong here. But, when like something is wrong here. But, when like something is wrong here. But, when things slowly shift over time, you don't things slowly shift over time, you don't things slowly shift over time, you don't even notice because the incremental even notice because the incremental even notice because the incremental change is at such a pace that you cannot change is at such a pace that you cannot change is at such a pace that you cannot notice it. And you can only see it in notice it. And you can only see it in notice it. And you can only see it in hindsight. So, there was no hindsight. So, there was no hindsight. So, there was no announcement. There's no email or bad announcement. There's no email or bad announcement. There's no email or bad review. You didn't see it on Google when

review. You didn't see it on Google when review. You didn't see it on Google when someone said, "This church's music is someone said, "This church's music is someone said, "This church's music is too loud." too loud." too loud." Because for most people, it was just Because for most people, it was just Because for most people, it was just this gradual drift with a quiet exit at this gradual drift with a quiet exit at this gradual drift with a quiet exit at the end of it. These are the people that the end of it. These are the people that the end of it. These are the people that go from attending weekly go from attending weekly go from attending weekly to attending monthly. Oh, my kids are in to attending monthly. Oh, my kids are in to attending monthly. Oh, my kids are in sports, it's busy. sports, it's busy. sports, it's busy. Then they drop out of their small group. Then they drop out of their small group. Then they drop out of their small group. Then you see them at Christmas and Then you see them at Christmas and Then you see them at Christmas and Easter. Easter. Easter. And then maybe you don't see them again. And then maybe you don't see them again. And then maybe you don't see them again. And And And I can think in my, you know, over the I can think in my, you know, over the I can think in my, you know, over the last decade of pastoring, I can think of last decade of pastoring, I can think of last decade of pastoring, I can think of the the handful of instances where it the the handful of instances where it the the handful of instances where it has been a dramatic exit. And when an has been a dramatic exit. And when an has been a dramatic exit. And when an event like that occurs in a community of event like that occurs in a community of event like that occurs in a community of any size, it's not just unique to a any size, it's not just unique to a any size, it's not just unique to a small church like mine, but when there's small church like mine, but when there's small church like mine, but when there's a dramatic of exit of any size, whether a dramatic of exit of any size, whether a dramatic of exit of any size, whether it's loud or whatever, whether there's it's loud or whatever, whether there's it's loud or whatever, whether there's online posting, however it's dramatic. online posting, however it's dramatic. online posting, however it's dramatic. The temptation is to react to that drama The temptation is to react to that drama The temptation is to react to that drama with an equal amount of drama on the with an equal amount of drama on the with an equal amount of drama on the church's part, which is like, "Oh, we church's part, which is like, "Oh, we church's part, which is like, "Oh, we need to like we need to like, you know, need to like we need to like, you know, need to like we need to like, you know, this person said this, like we need to this person said this, like we need to this person said this, like we need to we need to address that right away." And we need to address that right away." And we need to address that right away." And and certainly in some cases there's and certainly in some cases there's and certainly in some cases there's merit to that, right? If somebody's got merit to that, right? If somebody's got merit to that, right? If somebody's got like a legitimate qualm, you need to like a legitimate qualm, you need to like a legitimate qualm, you need to tend to that, or have you.

tend to that, or have you. tend to that, or have you. But, there's this But, there's this But, there's this underlying truth underneath all the the underlying truth underneath all the the underlying truth underneath all the the drama and the and the bravado, which is drama and the and the bravado, which is drama and the and the bravado, which is like there are folks who are just like there are folks who are just like there are folks who are just quietly falling away, and they're not quietly falling away, and they're not quietly falling away, and they're not going to get your attention um by their going to get your attention um by their going to get your attention um by their volume uh or by what they say. It's it's volume uh or by what they say. It's it's volume uh or by what they say. It's it's they're they're just going to quietly they're they're just going to quietly they're they're just going to quietly kind of kind of kind of disappear. disappear. disappear. And And And because they're such a large set of the because they're such a large set of the because they're such a large set of the folks who are they represent such a folks who are they represent such a folks who are they represent such a large set of the folks who do leave the large set of the folks who do leave the large set of the folks who do leave the faith, it's I mean faith, it's I mean faith, it's I mean if if we accomplish anything in this if if we accomplish anything in this if if we accomplish anything in this part of our conversation, hopefully it's part of our conversation, hopefully it's part of our conversation, hopefully it's to draw the attention of the pastor to to draw the attention of the pastor to to draw the attention of the pastor to that group. And to see, okay, I notice that group. And to see, okay, I notice that group. And to see, okay, I notice you falling away because I maybe I'm you falling away because I maybe I'm you falling away because I maybe I'm empowered by maybe I'm hearing these empowered by maybe I'm hearing these empowered by maybe I'm hearing these these numbers for the first time on the these numbers for the first time on the these numbers for the first time on the show and I'm I it's it's kind of giving show and I'm I it's it's kind of giving show and I'm I it's it's kind of giving me a little bit more perspective. And me a little bit more perspective. And me a little bit more perspective. And then, you know, this goes back to our then, you know, this goes back to our then, you know, this goes back to our our first point. Well, how do we how do our first point. Well, how do we how do our first point. Well, how do we how do we keep people from losing their faith? we keep people from losing their faith? we keep people from losing their faith? Well, you you can't, but maybe you can Well, you you can't, but maybe you can Well, you you can't, but maybe you can notice when someone goes from weekly to notice when someone goes from weekly to notice when someone goes from weekly to monthly, monthly to quarterly, and you monthly, monthly to quarterly, and you monthly, monthly to quarterly, and you can you can meet them there and address can you can meet them there and address can you can meet them there and address maybe some of their questions, their maybe some of their questions, their maybe some of their questions, their concerns, their doubts. And yeah, maybe concerns, their doubts. And yeah, maybe concerns, their doubts. And yeah, maybe you can keep them in the fold. Yeah, I you can keep them in the fold. Yeah, I you can keep them in the fold. Yeah, I think that's a really actionable item.

think that's a really actionable item. think that's a really actionable item. And and maybe And and maybe And and maybe you know, for most churches that are 75 you know, for most churches that are 75 you know, for most churches that are 75 people, that's a visible thing. Yes. And people, that's a visible thing. Yes. And people, that's a visible thing. Yes. And if you are a larger church or a church if you are a larger church or a church if you are a larger church or a church of any size, with how much technology is of any size, with how much technology is of any size, with how much technology is integrated into church nowadays with integrated into church nowadays with integrated into church nowadays with like kids check-in and uh like kids check-in and uh like kids check-in and uh action items of people signing up action items of people signing up action items of people signing up online, you can set reminders, you can online, you can set reminders, you can online, you can set reminders, you can set triggers where if you see this set triggers where if you see this set triggers where if you see this activity change, you could even get activity change, you could even get activity change, you could even get notifications and you can get reminders notifications and you can get reminders notifications and you can get reminders that on their own are just looking at that on their own are just looking at that on their own are just looking at data signals, but then provide a real data signals, but then provide a real data signals, but then provide a real entry point for pastoral care Yeah. step entry point for pastoral care Yeah. step entry point for pastoral care Yeah. step in and be like, "Hey." And you know, you in and be like, "Hey." And you know, you in and be like, "Hey." And you know, you don't go, "Hey, I noticed you didn't don't go, "Hey, I noticed you didn't don't go, "Hey, I noticed you didn't come to church lately. What gives?" It's come to church lately. What gives?" It's come to church lately. What gives?" It's not about that, it's more, "Hey, if we not about that, it's more, "Hey, if we not about that, it's more, "Hey, if we know know know that that that a decrease in activity is probably, in a decrease in activity is probably, in a decrease in activity is probably, in many cases, a proxy many cases, a proxy many cases, a proxy >> Yes. for a diminishing faith, that would >> Yes. for a diminishing faith, that would >> Yes. for a diminishing faith, that would be a warning signal for a faith leader be a warning signal for a faith leader be a warning signal for a faith leader to step in and connect with that person. to step in and connect with that person. to step in and connect with that person. You don't need for someone to come to You don't need for someone to come to You don't need for someone to come to you and say, That's good. "I'm you and say, That's good. "I'm you and say, That's good. "I'm struggling with my faith." You can look struggling with my faith." You can look struggling with my faith." You can look at what they're doing at what they're doing at what they're doing and understandably interpret that as I'm and understandably interpret that as I'm and understandably interpret that as I'm struggling with my faith.

struggling with my faith. struggling with my faith. >> Totally. You prove what you believe by >> Totally. You prove what you believe by >> Totally. You prove what you believe by how you behave, right? Um and I was how you behave, right? Um and I was how you behave, right? Um and I was thinking of your church, thinking of your church, thinking of your church, a large church that has a high priority a large church that has a high priority a large church that has a high priority on small groups because that's a great on small groups because that's a great on small groups because that's a great way to like be known in a community of, way to like be known in a community of, way to like be known in a community of, you know, thousands of people. And so you know, thousands of people. And so you know, thousands of people. And so this is helpful, too, in the sense of this is helpful, too, in the sense of this is helpful, too, in the sense of pastoral care. Now, knowing this, you pastoral care. Now, knowing this, you pastoral care. Now, knowing this, you get to equip your small group leader and get to equip your small group leader and get to equip your small group leader and say, "Hey, if you notice this in your say, "Hey, if you notice this in your say, "Hey, if you notice this in your small group, this is what you ought to small group, this is what you ought to small group, this is what you ought to do. This is how you pick up the phone. do. This is how you pick up the phone. do. This is how you pick up the phone. This is how you text this person. This This is how you text this person. This This is how you text this person. This is how you approach this conversation to is how you approach this conversation to is how you approach this conversation to the person who was coming to your small the person who was coming to your small the person who was coming to your small group every time you meet and now group every time you meet and now group every time you meet and now they're coming every other time. You can they're coming every other time. You can they're coming every other time. You can equip your leaders at a lower level to equip your leaders at a lower level to equip your leaders at a lower level to kind of notice these things as well and kind of notice these things as well and kind of notice these things as well and and meet the same people in the same way and meet the same people in the same way and meet the same people in the same way just at a different kind of level of the just at a different kind of level of the just at a different kind of level of the ministry. 100%. Um okay, this next one, ministry. 100%. Um okay, this next one, ministry. 100%. Um okay, this next one, our third finding, high confidence in our third finding, high confidence in our third finding, high confidence in this being, you know, this being, you know, this being, you know, true and actionable. This one as a for true and actionable. This one as a for true and actionable. This one as a for me personally as a pastor, but me personally as a pastor, but me personally as a pastor, but especially as a parent of young kids especially as a parent of young kids especially as a parent of young kids right now, this this one really has my right now, this this one really has my right now, this this one really has my attention and the claim is that attention and the claim is that attention and the claim is that childhood experience is the strongest childhood experience is the strongest childhood experience is the strongest predictor of whether someone stays in predictor of whether someone stays in predictor of whether someone stays in the church.

the church. the church. This is the finding with the biggest This is the finding with the biggest This is the finding with the biggest practical implications in this episode. practical implications in this episode. practical implications in this episode. So, if you've been listening to this So, if you've been listening to this So, if you've been listening to this point and you've been like, "What a point and you've been like, "What a point and you've been like, "What a waste of 15 minutes?" waste of 15 minutes?" waste of 15 minutes?" You are about to be rewarded, I think, You are about to be rewarded, I think, You are about to be rewarded, I think, because when I stumbled upon this, it because when I stumbled upon this, it because when I stumbled upon this, it felt like, "Oh, okay, this is all felt like, "Oh, okay, this is all felt like, "Oh, okay, this is all starting to make sense now." So, here's starting to make sense now." So, here's starting to make sense now." So, here's what the data says. The numbers from what the data says. The numbers from what the data says. The numbers from Pew, December 2025, Pew, December 2025, Pew, December 2025, if you had a mostly positive experience if you had a mostly positive experience if you had a mostly positive experience with religion growing up, with religion growing up, with religion growing up, 84% stayed and still identify with 84% stayed and still identify with 84% stayed and still identify with childhood religion as adults. If you had childhood religion as adults. If you had childhood religion as adults. If you had a mostly negative experience, only 24% a mostly negative experience, only 24% a mostly negative experience, only 24% stayed. Like it's that There it is. 69% stayed. Like it's that There it is. 69% stayed. Like it's that There it is. 69% of those people are now nines, which of those people are now nines, which of those people are now nines, which means like we have no affiliation with means like we have no affiliation with means like we have no affiliation with faith whatsoever. faith whatsoever. faith whatsoever. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> On the other hand, >> On the other hand, >> On the other hand, if you had a high religiosity household. if you had a high religiosity household. if you had a high religiosity household. So, this is not now your experience with So, this is not now your experience with So, this is not now your experience with faith, it's your home life and faith. faith, it's your home life and faith. faith, it's your home life and faith. High High High religiosity household, 82% stayed. religiosity household, 82% stayed. religiosity household, 82% stayed. Low, 47% stayed.

Low, 47% stayed. Low, 47% stayed. And then there are medium high and And then there are medium high and And then there are medium high and medium low numbers that are similar medium low numbers that are similar medium low numbers that are similar there. there. there. All the sources, by the way, are indexed All the sources, by the way, are indexed All the sources, by the way, are indexed in in in the show notes and description. So, you the show notes and description. So, you the show notes and description. So, you can track these all down. can track these all down. can track these all down. So, the timing here is is is I think So, the timing here is is is I think So, the timing here is is is I think like, you know, pretty clear. like, you know, pretty clear. like, you know, pretty clear. Pew found that 85% of all religious Pew found that 85% of all religious Pew found that 85% of all religious switches happen by age 30. And 46% switches happen by age 30. And 46% switches happen by age 30. And 46% happen during childhood or the teen happen during childhood or the teen happen during childhood or the teen years before adulthood even begins. On years before adulthood even begins. On years before adulthood even begins. On last week's episode, we talked about how last week's episode, we talked about how last week's episode, we talked about how one of the claims that like Gen Z is one of the claims that like Gen Z is one of the claims that like Gen Z is likely to respond yes if you invite them likely to respond yes if you invite them likely to respond yes if you invite them to church. Half of Gen Z would come to to church. Half of Gen Z would come to to church. Half of Gen Z would come to church if you invited them. We're like, church if you invited them. We're like, church if you invited them. We're like, that's not really true. What's true is that's not really true. What's true is that's not really true. What's true is that that that teenagers will say yes. teenagers will say yes. teenagers will say yes. >> Of any generation. >> Of any generation. >> Of any generation. >> if you invite them. And that the >> if you invite them. And that the >> if you invite them. And that the difference between a 16-year-old and a difference between a 16-year-old and a difference between a 16-year-old and a 24-year-old is massive. Take that same 24-year-old is massive. Take that same 24-year-old is massive. Take that same eight-year gap, apply it to a eight-year gap, apply it to a eight-year gap, apply it to a 42-year-old and a 50-year-old. Probably 42-year-old and a 50-year-old. Probably 42-year-old and a 50-year-old. Probably not nearly if any movement there. But 16 not nearly if any movement there. But 16 not nearly if any movement there. But 16 to 24, to 24, to 24, you're talking about massive shifts. you're talking about massive shifts. you're talking about massive shifts. And that's why formation of faith in And that's why formation of faith in And that's why formation of faith in your childhood is so important. What your childhood is so important. What your childhood is so important. What does this mean for a church? The does this mean for a church? The does this mean for a church? The experience a child has experience a child has experience a child has in your church between the ages in your church between the ages in your church between the ages [clears throat] of 5 and 17 is the [clears throat] of 5 and 17 is the [clears throat] of 5 and 17 is the single strongest predictor of whether single strongest predictor of whether single strongest predictor of whether they will identify with faith as adults.

they will identify with faith as adults. they will identify with faith as adults. Not the quality of your Sunday morning Not the quality of your Sunday morning Not the quality of your Sunday morning production. Not your small group production. Not your small group production. Not your small group curriculum. curriculum. curriculum. What happened in the childhood? What happened in the childhood? What happened in the childhood? So, like maybe what happens on Sunday, So, like maybe what happens on Sunday, So, like maybe what happens on Sunday, maybe the small group curriculum, but maybe the small group curriculum, but maybe the small group curriculum, but only so much as it matters to are they only so much as it matters to are they only so much as it matters to are they having a positive experience or a having a positive experience or a having a positive experience or a negative experience. And we'll get into negative experience. And we'll get into negative experience. And we'll get into certain contributors in a moment on what certain contributors in a moment on what certain contributors in a moment on what Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> qualify there. >> qualify there. >> qualify there. If a If a If a child's experience of church is child's experience of church is child's experience of church is negative, judgmental, confusing, negative, judgmental, confusing, negative, judgmental, confusing, hypocritical, or harmful. So, what do we hypocritical, or harmful. So, what do we hypocritical, or harmful. So, what do we mean by this word negative? Those four mean by this word negative? Those four mean by this word negative? Those four things. Is it judgmental? Is it things. Is it judgmental? Is it things. Is it judgmental? Is it confusing? Is it hypocritical or confusing? Is it hypocritical or confusing? Is it hypocritical or harmful? If it is, data says there's harmful? If it is, data says there's harmful? If it is, data says there's roughly a 70% chance that they will not roughly a 70% chance that they will not roughly a 70% chance that they will not identify with any religion as an adult. identify with any religion as an adult. identify with any religion as an adult. >> Mhm. That's the data. Let me tell you my >> Mhm. That's the data. Let me tell you my >> Mhm. That's the data. Let me tell you my story. story. story. I grew up attending a small Baptist I grew up attending a small Baptist I grew up attending a small Baptist church. 20 people. church. 20 people. church. 20 people. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> It wasn't negative in the sense that it >> It wasn't negative in the sense that it >> It wasn't negative in the sense that it wasn't hypocritical, harmful, or wasn't hypocritical, harmful, or wasn't hypocritical, harmful, or judgmental. Maybe it was confusing. I judgmental. Maybe it was confusing. I judgmental. Maybe it was confusing. I was like, "Why do we Why are we going to was like, "Why do we Why are we going to was like, "Why do we Why are we going to this? I don't see any value to this in this? I don't see any value to this in this? I don't see any value to this in my life." my life." my life." My mom notices what's happening. And so, My mom notices what's happening. And so, My mom notices what's happening. And so, when I get invited to a Pentecostal when I get invited to a Pentecostal when I get invited to a Pentecostal youth group in the seventh grade, youth group in the seventh grade, youth group in the seventh grade, she's like, "Yes, I will pay for you to she's like, "Yes, I will pay for you to she's like, "Yes, I will pay for you to go to the conference." And I'm at the go to the conference." And I'm at the go to the conference." And I'm at the conference, and there's 2,000 people my conference, and there's 2,000 people my conference, and there's 2,000 people my age in this giant like hockey arena, age in this giant like hockey arena, age in this giant like hockey arena, because every Canadian town has a hockey because every Canadian town has a hockey because every Canadian town has a hockey arena.

arena. arena. And there's like And there's like And there's like people raising their hands, and there's people raising their hands, and there's people raising their hands, and there's kids my age, and there's a lot of fun, kids my age, and there's a lot of fun, kids my age, and there's a lot of fun, and I'm like, "I don't really understand and I'm like, "I don't really understand and I'm like, "I don't really understand what's happening, but I'm feeling a lot what's happening, but I'm feeling a lot what's happening, but I'm feeling a lot of things." of things." of things." And I just like keep attending youth And I just like keep attending youth And I just like keep attending youth group. group. group. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And now, And now, And now, you're listening to episode 889 you're listening to episode 889 you're listening to episode 889 >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> of the Pro Church Tool Show, where we >> of the Pro Church Tool Show, where we >> of the Pro Church Tool Show, where we have dedicated 12 years, my entire have dedicated 12 years, my entire have dedicated 12 years, my entire professional life, to helping churches professional life, to helping churches professional life, to helping churches navigate the biggest communication shift navigate the biggest communication shift navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years. Guess what? None of that in 500 years. Guess what? None of that in 500 years. Guess what? None of that exists exists exists >> Mhm. if my church experience does not >> Mhm. if my church experience does not >> Mhm. if my church experience does not get rerouted from negative into get rerouted from negative into get rerouted from negative into positive. And that's not even a slight positive. And that's not even a slight positive. And that's not even a slight at my Baptist church. at my Baptist church. at my Baptist church. >> Totally. So, what we always say is that >> Totally. So, what we always say is that >> Totally. So, what we always say is that every church has unique DNA, and your every church has unique DNA, and your every church has unique DNA, and your church is specifically positioned to church is specifically positioned to church is specifically positioned to take the gospel and present it to people take the gospel and present it to people take the gospel and present it to people in ways that make sense to them. And in ways that make sense to them. And in ways that make sense to them. And that specific church just wasn't doing that specific church just wasn't doing that specific church just wasn't doing that for me. And my mom noticed that and that for me. And my mom noticed that and that for me. And my mom noticed that and said, "Go to the Pentecostal youth group said, "Go to the Pentecostal youth group said, "Go to the Pentecostal youth group in this town." And after a couple years, in this town." And after a couple years, in this town." And after a couple years, when that youth group fizzled out when that youth group fizzled out when that youth group fizzled out because there just wasn't enough people, because there just wasn't enough people, because there just wasn't enough people, there was another youth group that I got there was another youth group that I got there was another youth group that I got invited to. And she said, "Yeah, go to invited to. And she said, "Yeah, go to invited to. And she said, "Yeah, go to that one." And she was encouraging of that one." And she was encouraging of that one." And she was encouraging of that, and she like spent the money to go that, and she like spent the money to go that, and she like spent the money to go allow me to go to the retreats, and allow me to go to the retreats, and allow me to go to the retreats, and would drive me on Fridays. It was, you would drive me on Fridays. It was, you would drive me on Fridays. It was, you know, a 20-minute drive there and back, know, a 20-minute drive there and back, know, a 20-minute drive there and back, and she'd pick me up at 11:30 p.m.

and she'd pick me up at 11:30 p.m. and she'd pick me up at 11:30 p.m. Because like that was the only way that Because like that was the only way that Because like that was the only way that I would get home, and she realized, I would get home, and she realized, I would get home, and she realized, "Okay, this is the moment. This is the "Okay, this is the moment. This is the "Okay, this is the moment. This is the window of time. window of time. window of time. And if we cannot maximize this window of And if we cannot maximize this window of And if we cannot maximize this window of time, then who knows time, then who knows time, then who knows what kind of adult he grows up to be." what kind of adult he grows up to be." what kind of adult he grows up to be." When you think of it in those terms, When you think of it in those terms, When you think of it in those terms, that like this is the chance, that like this is the chance, that like this is the chance, the the the the the child and their the the the the the child and their the the the the the child and their formation in these like 6 to 8 years, formation in these like 6 to 8 years, formation in these like 6 to 8 years, >> Yeah. their entire life is going to be >> Yeah. their entire life is going to be >> Yeah. their entire life is going to be dictated by this. Now, you have dictated by this. Now, you have dictated by this. Now, you have actionable information in your church. actionable information in your church. actionable information in your church. This stems back to episodes that we've This stems back to episodes that we've This stems back to episodes that we've done in years past on the Fuller done in years past on the Fuller done in years past on the Fuller Institute's research in growing young, Institute's research in growing young, Institute's research in growing young, about how important this age gap is, and about how important this age gap is, and about how important this age gap is, and how important it is not just for them how important it is not just for them how important it is not just for them and the future church as they grow up, and the future church as they grow up, and the future church as they grow up, but the vitality of the church in that but the vitality of the church in that but the vitality of the church in that moment, and how older generations moment, and how older generations moment, and how older generations benefit positively when the young people benefit positively when the young people benefit positively when the young people are prioritized in a singular church, are prioritized in a singular church, are prioritized in a singular church, because they have this like because they have this like because they have this like effervescent quality to them that we're effervescent quality to them that we're effervescent quality to them that we're seeing here, because it's their faith seeing here, because it's their faith seeing here, because it's their faith being established and cemented for the being established and cemented for the being established and cemented for the rest of their lives.

rest of their lives. rest of their lives. That is being like That is being like That is being like subconsciously felt by the rest of the subconsciously felt by the rest of the subconsciously felt by the rest of the congregation on Sunday mornings, and the congregation on Sunday mornings, and the congregation on Sunday mornings, and the whole church benefits from it. And so, whole church benefits from it. And so, whole church benefits from it. And so, to me, if you listen to this episode, to me, if you listen to this episode, to me, if you listen to this episode, and the first couple of things were and the first couple of things were and the first couple of things were like, they stop believing. Why? It's a like, they stop believing. Why? It's a like, they stop believing. Why? It's a slow drift. Why slow drift. Why slow drift. Why am I in ministry? Because I feel so like am I in ministry? Because I feel so like am I in ministry? Because I feel so like upset. This is the thing that you can upset. This is the thing that you can upset. This is the thing that you can focus on. And think about me focus on. And think about me focus on. And think about me and how that was rerouted, because I and how that was rerouted, because I and how that was rerouted, because I think about it, because my daughter think about it, because my daughter think about it, because my daughter turns 11 this year. That's right. And turns 11 this year. That's right. And turns 11 this year. That's right. And she can go to junior youth in grade six she can go to junior youth in grade six she can go to junior youth in grade six for the first time. And like my wife and for the first time. And like my wife and for the first time. And like my wife and I talk about this all the time. Like, we I talk about this all the time. Like, we I talk about this all the time. Like, we have a strong marriage. We have a have a strong marriage. We have a have a strong marriage. We have a household that believes in Jesus. We household that believes in Jesus. We household that believes in Jesus. We pray as a family. We do things together pray as a family. We do things together pray as a family. We do things together as a family. So, we have that as a family. So, we have that as a family. So, we have that religiosity household. religiosity household. religiosity household. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And then And then And then we want to make sure that she has a we want to make sure that she has a we want to make sure that she has a positive church experience when it's not positive church experience when it's not positive church experience when it's not just I go because mom says and there's just I go because mom says and there's just I go because mom says and there's summer camp or whatever. It's like, no, summer camp or whatever. It's like, no, summer camp or whatever. It's like, no, like what do I believe about the world? like what do I believe about the world? like what do I believe about the world? And those beliefs are going to be And those beliefs are going to be And those beliefs are going to be starting to be formed in her now. And we starting to be formed in her now. And we starting to be formed in her now. And we talked about how we always talk about talked about how we always talk about talked about how we always talk about how important this is. And it's not how important this is. And it's not how important this is. And it's not necessarily about like the things that necessarily about like the things that necessarily about like the things that we establish as like this is a rule, we establish as like this is a rule, we establish as like this is a rule, this is not a rule. It's like this is not a rule. It's like this is not a rule. It's like caught more than taught.

caught more than taught. caught more than taught. It's all happening via osmosis. So, is It's all happening via osmosis. So, is It's all happening via osmosis. So, is our household high religiosity? And is our household high religiosity? And is our household high religiosity? And is the family healthy? Because if so, that the family healthy? Because if so, that the family healthy? Because if so, that is going to be picked up by her. And is going to be picked up by her. And is going to be picked up by her. And that will form her beliefs about what that will form her beliefs about what that will form her beliefs about what childhood is and what it's not. To use a childhood is and what it's not. To use a childhood is and what it's not. To use a counterexample, and I know I'm just like counterexample, and I know I'm just like counterexample, and I know I'm just like I'm never going to let her stop talking I'm never going to let her stop talking I'm never going to let her stop talking about it. about it. about it. My wife and I both grew up in high My wife and I both grew up in high My wife and I both grew up in high religiosity households. But her religiosity households. But her religiosity households. But her experience of church was a negative one, experience of church was a negative one, experience of church was a negative one, and mine was a positive one. And we are and mine was a positive one. And we are and mine was a positive one. And we are both extremely stubborn individuals. We both extremely stubborn individuals. We both extremely stubborn individuals. We were talking about this a couple nights were talking about this a couple nights were talking about this a couple nights ago about how we share this same quality ago about how we share this same quality ago about how we share this same quality of stubbornness. of stubbornness. of stubbornness. And and it can be good stubbornness or And and it can be good stubbornness or And and it can be good stubbornness or bad stubbornness. Stubbornness of like bad stubbornness. Stubbornness of like bad stubbornness. Stubbornness of like unwillingness to change, stubbornness of unwillingness to change, stubbornness of unwillingness to change, stubbornness of unwillingness to give up. unwillingness to give up. unwillingness to give up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But hers is often expressed as But hers is often expressed as But hers is often expressed as whatever's happening around me, whatever's happening around me, whatever's happening around me, I am powerless to change it. I am powerless to change it. I am powerless to change it. So, I grit my teeth and I white-knuckle So, I grit my teeth and I white-knuckle So, I grit my teeth and I white-knuckle through it. My wife has an incredible through it. My wife has an incredible through it. My wife has an incredible ability to endure. So much so that when ability to endure. So much so that when ability to endure. So much so that when she was giving birth to her second child she was giving birth to her second child she was giving birth to her second child and the epidural fell out, the midwives and the epidural fell out, the midwives and the epidural fell out, the midwives didn't believe her because she wasn't didn't believe her because she wasn't didn't believe her because she wasn't expressing enough like agony. Until they expressing enough like agony. Until they expressing enough like agony. Until they saw it on the floor and went, "Oh, you saw it on the floor and went, "Oh, you saw it on the floor and went, "Oh, you were right. It really did fall out." And were right. It really did fall out." And were right. It really did fall out." And she's like, "I told you that." And she's like, "I told you that." And she's like, "I told you that." And they're like, "Well, they're like, "Well, they're like, "Well, normally a woman would display this normally a woman would display this normally a woman would display this physically.

physically. physically. So, we just figured, you know." And So, we just figured, you know." And So, we just figured, you know." And Britt's like, "Yeah, let me tell you Britt's like, "Yeah, let me tell you Britt's like, "Yeah, let me tell you about my childhood experience." about my childhood experience." about my childhood experience." >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. Well, [laughter] can we do that after Well, [laughter] can we do that after Well, [laughter] can we do that after cuz there's a new childhood experience cuz there's a new childhood experience cuz there's a new childhood experience about to begin. about to begin. about to begin. Uh so, my Uh so, my Uh so, my high religiosity household, but I had a high religiosity household, but I had a high religiosity household, but I had a very positive experience of church. And very positive experience of church. And very positive experience of church. And unlike my my wife, who like was commonly unlike my my wife, who like was commonly unlike my my wife, who like was commonly like overlooked for volunteer roles. like overlooked for volunteer roles. like overlooked for volunteer roles. Like, "You're not really ready to lead Like, "You're not really ready to lead Like, "You're not really ready to lead worship, but you can continue stacking worship, but you can continue stacking worship, but you can continue stacking chairs. Uh you know what? Like the boys chairs. Uh you know what? Like the boys chairs. Uh you know what? Like the boys are getting give getting given more of a are getting give getting given more of a are getting give getting given more of a chance to lead, and like we're happy chance to lead, and like we're happy chance to lead, and like we're happy you're here, but like you're not going you're here, but like you're not going you're here, but like you're not going to get given the same chance." Me on the to get given the same chance." Me on the to get given the same chance." Me on the other hand, not even as like skilled as other hand, not even as like skilled as other hand, not even as like skilled as her like in music. Like, "Sure, here's her like in music. Like, "Sure, here's her like in music. Like, "Sure, here's the guitar. Go sing. Sure, be the leader the guitar. Go sing. Sure, be the leader the guitar. Go sing. Sure, be the leader of this youth group on the volunteer of this youth group on the volunteer of this youth group on the volunteer team. Like, okay, great. What am I team. Like, okay, great. What am I team. Like, okay, great. What am I learning? learning? learning? Not only am I having a great experience Not only am I having a great experience Not only am I having a great experience in church, I am the center of attention. in church, I am the center of attention. in church, I am the center of attention. And so, my stubbornness is expressed in And so, my stubbornness is expressed in And so, my stubbornness is expressed in I can shape reality into like whatever I can shape reality into like whatever I can shape reality into like whatever [laughter] I want it to be. If God puts [laughter] I want it to be. If God puts [laughter] I want it to be. If God puts a dream on my heart, nothing is a dream on my heart, nothing is a dream on my heart, nothing is impossible. And hers is like, I don't impossible. And hers is like, I don't impossible. And hers is like, I don't really have control over reality, so I really have control over reality, so I really have control over reality, so I grit my teeth and I bear it. This grit my teeth and I bear it. This grit my teeth and I bear it. This happened this weekend happened this weekend happened this weekend where she was like, "Man, where she was like, "Man, where she was like, "Man, I'm having like a lot of headaches." And I'm having like a lot of headaches." And I'm having like a lot of headaches." And I was like, "Let's figure out what I was like, "Let's figure out what I was like, "Let's figure out what that's about." And she's like, "What do that's about." And she's like, "What do that's about." And she's like, "What do you mean figure out what that's about?

you mean figure out what that's about? you mean figure out what that's about? This is my lot in life." And I was like, This is my lot in life." And I was like, This is my lot in life." And I was like, "You know, or not. We could figure it "You know, or not. We could figure it "You know, or not. We could figure it out." And within a little while we out." And within a little while we out." And within a little while we figured out, "Okay, like your family figured out, "Okay, like your family figured out, "Okay, like your family probably has this like family history of probably has this like family history of probably has this like family history of migraines. And so, like when they come, migraines. And so, like when they come, migraines. And so, like when they come, this is what you should be doing. And this is what you should be doing. And this is what you should be doing. And you've been doing this the whole time, you've been doing this the whole time, you've been doing this the whole time, and that's why you're just enduring it, and that's why you're just enduring it, and that's why you're just enduring it, but you actually don't have to anymore." but you actually don't have to anymore." but you actually don't have to anymore." And she's like, And she's like, And she's like, "Oh, "Oh, "Oh, that was easy." And I was like, that was easy." And I was like, that was easy." And I was like, "Last time I got a headache, I was just "Last time I got a headache, I was just "Last time I got a headache, I was just like, like, like, 'Ah!' Like [laughter] 'Ah!' Like [laughter] 'Ah!' Like [laughter] And so, just how And so, just how And so, just how amazing formative childhood really is. amazing formative childhood really is. amazing formative childhood really is. Yeah, and I I don't actually think it's Yeah, and I I don't actually think it's Yeah, and I I don't actually think it's possible to overstate possible to overstate possible to overstate the the the urgency of the moment as it relates to urgency of the moment as it relates to urgency of the moment as it relates to children and young people. Because the children and young people. Because the children and young people. Because the data bears the bears it out on the data bears the bears it out on the data bears the bears it out on the opposite side of the coin, which it says opposite side of the coin, which it says opposite side of the coin, which it says 3% of US adults who are raised without a 3% of US adults who are raised without a 3% of US adults who are raised without a religion have since joined one. religion have since joined one. religion have since joined one. Three. Now, this is data. We believe in Three. Now, this is data. We believe in Three. Now, this is data. We believe in a miracle-working God, right? But, a miracle-working God, right? But, a miracle-working God, right? But, data also tells a data also tells a data also tells a uh a true story. uh a true story. uh a true story. Uh it goes on to say 73% of people who Uh it goes on to say 73% of people who Uh it goes on to say 73% of people who are raised as nones remained nones.

are raised as nones remained nones. are raised as nones remained nones. So, So, So, I I really do believe as a parent of I I really do believe as a parent of I I really do believe as a parent of young kids, as a pastor in a church, young kids, as a pastor in a church, young kids, as a pastor in a church, it's impossible to overstate the urgency it's impossible to overstate the urgency it's impossible to overstate the urgency of the moment with children both of the moment with children both of the moment with children both >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> from an institutional level with the >> from an institutional level with the >> from an institutional level with the church chooses to do programmatically, church chooses to do programmatically, church chooses to do programmatically, where they choose to invest their where they choose to invest their where they choose to invest their resources. It's uh Dr. Kara Powell from resources. It's uh Dr. Kara Powell from resources. It's uh Dr. Kara Powell from the um Fuller Youth Institute who says, the um Fuller Youth Institute who says, the um Fuller Youth Institute who says, "Churches that disproportionately "Churches that disproportionately "Churches that disproportionately prioritize young people prioritize young people prioritize young people are the churches that are growing." are the churches that are growing." are the churches that are growing." That's like that's their thesis. That's like that's their thesis. That's like that's their thesis. So, it matters what the church chooses So, it matters what the church chooses So, it matters what the church chooses to do programmatically, where they spend to do programmatically, where they spend to do programmatically, where they spend their money, their time, their their money, their time, their their money, their time, their resources. resources. resources. And then so that that's the religious And then so that that's the religious And then so that that's the religious experience. experience. experience. And then for the the parents of children And then for the the parents of children And then for the the parents of children who are responsible for the household, who are responsible for the household, who are responsible for the household, it's the the the it's the the the it's the the the it's urgent to it's urgent to it's urgent to curate the type of home that you want curate the type of home that you want curate the type of home that you want your child your child your child to then curate when it's their turn. to then curate when it's their turn. to then curate when it's their turn. And there's a church-wide responsibility And there's a church-wide responsibility And there's a church-wide responsibility to equip parents to equip parents to equip parents to learn about the urgency and equip to learn about the urgency and equip to learn about the urgency and equip them for how to do it. And so like them for how to do it. And so like them for how to do it. And so like the this the this the this data point and this finding from this data point and this finding from this data point and this finding from this data set unlocks data set unlocks data set unlocks like like like a lot for the church, the church's a lot for the church, the church's a lot for the church, the church's responsibility to parents, the church's responsibility to parents, the church's responsibility to parents, the church's responsibility to responsibility to responsibility to um children and youth who find their way um children and youth who find their way um children and youth who find their way into the church whose parents don't into the church whose parents don't into the church whose parents don't belong to the church.

belong to the church. belong to the church. If your church doesn't have a youth If your church doesn't have a youth If your church doesn't have a youth group because you only have a handful of group because you only have a handful of group because you only have a handful of youth that are currently in your church, youth that are currently in your church, youth that are currently in your church, need to find a way to need to find a way to need to find a way to have some sort of youth gathering have some sort of youth gathering have some sort of youth gathering and connect [clears throat] youth in and connect [clears throat] youth in and connect [clears throat] youth in your community to your church because your community to your church because your community to your church because this is the moment. Again, barring a this is the moment. Again, barring a this is the moment. Again, barring a miracle, which can happen, does happen, miracle, which can happen, does happen, miracle, which can happen, does happen, will happen, but this is the moment will happen, but this is the moment will happen, but this is the moment where we have agency to where we have agency to where we have agency to form the experience, the world view of form the experience, the world view of form the experience, the world view of youth and young adults and children youth and young adults and children youth and young adults and children and set pave the runway for their life, and set pave the runway for their life, and set pave the runway for their life, remove remove remove infinite barriers for them in their infinite barriers for them in their infinite barriers for them in their journey with Jesus. journey with Jesus. journey with Jesus. Um I Um I Um I Like I I I just I feel the I don't know Like I I I just I feel the I don't know Like I I I just I feel the I don't know if you feel it, but the if you feel it, but the if you feel it, but the kind of the weight of responsibility kind of the weight of responsibility kind of the weight of responsibility that this data kind of puts on the table that this data kind of puts on the table that this data kind of puts on the table and says, "Look, if this then that." and says, "Look, if this then that." and says, "Look, if this then that." It's like, "Oh, I as a dad, as a friend, It's like, "Oh, I as a dad, as a friend, It's like, "Oh, I as a dad, as a friend, as a spouse, as a Christian, and as a as a spouse, as a Christian, and as a as a spouse, as a Christian, and as a pastor, have a lot of responsibility pastor, have a lot of responsibility pastor, have a lot of responsibility right here in this moment." Yeah, and I right here in this moment." Yeah, and I right here in this moment." Yeah, and I think about it with the the the friends think about it with the the the friends think about it with the the the friends of like the my friends who have kids as of like the my friends who have kids as of like the my friends who have kids as well.

well. well. >> Yeah. Right? Like, "Okay, like what how >> Yeah. Right? Like, "Okay, like what how >> Yeah. Right? Like, "Okay, like what how can I contribute in these these can I contribute in these these can I contribute in these these formative years for them?" Like one of formative years for them?" Like one of formative years for them?" Like one of my close friends, he has two boys who my close friends, he has two boys who my close friends, he has two boys who are on a amazing track with God. But are on a amazing track with God. But are on a amazing track with God. But like, you know, one is 16 and one is 12. like, you know, one is 16 and one is 12. like, you know, one is 16 and one is 12. And like when we spend time together, And like when we spend time together, And like when we spend time together, like I remember the adults in my life like I remember the adults in my life like I remember the adults in my life >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> any any like positive interaction that's >> any any like positive interaction that's >> any any like positive interaction that's faith-related faith-related faith-related counts for like five times more than counts for like five times more than counts for like five times more than that. It's like when you're investing that. It's like when you're investing that. It's like when you're investing money. Like, "Hey, if you invest a money. Like, "Hey, if you invest a money. Like, "Hey, if you invest a dollar in your 20s, it's worth X amount dollar in your 20s, it's worth X amount dollar in your 20s, it's worth X amount more than if you did that same dollar in more than if you did that same dollar in more than if you did that same dollar in your 40s." Like that's the same truth your 40s." Like that's the same truth your 40s." Like that's the same truth here. There's compounding returns both here. There's compounding returns both here. There's compounding returns both in the negative and the positive. So, in the negative and the positive. So, in the negative and the positive. So, let's talk about one of the things that let's talk about one of the things that let's talk about one of the things that we can do that would undo all of this we can do that would undo all of this we can do that would undo all of this based in these data sets. based in these data sets. based in these data sets. >> All right, so we've got moderate >> All right, so we've got moderate >> All right, so we've got moderate confidence in this finding, but the confidence in this finding, but the confidence in this finding, but the finding is that uh it relates to finding is that uh it relates to finding is that uh it relates to scandals and institutional distrust. The scandals and institutional distrust. The scandals and institutional distrust. The data says that distrust of religious data says that distrust of religious data says that distrust of religious leaders and institutions is widespread leaders and institutions is widespread leaders and institutions is widespread across traditions and it's growing. across traditions and it's growing. across traditions and it's growing. Across traditions there is the important Across traditions there is the important Across traditions there is the important one. Okay, evangelicals, we don't get one. Okay, evangelicals, we don't get one. Okay, evangelicals, we don't get just just to get to say like, "Ah, the just just to get to say like, "Ah, the just just to get to say like, "Ah, the Catholics." Catholics." Catholics." >> Yeah. So, PRRI, quote, "Clergy sexual >> Yeah. So, PRRI, quote, "Clergy sexual >> Yeah. So, PRRI, quote, "Clergy sexual abuse scandals as a reason for leaving."

abuse scandals as a reason for leaving." abuse scandals as a reason for leaving." In 2016, just 19%. Praise God. 2024, In 2016, just 19%. Praise God. 2024, In 2016, just 19%. Praise God. 2024, 39%. 39%. 39%. >> Thanks. That's doubled in just eight >> Thanks. That's doubled in just eight >> Thanks. That's doubled in just eight years, okay? Among former Catholics years, okay? Among former Catholics years, okay? Among former Catholics Catholics specifically, 45%. Among Catholics specifically, 45%. Among Catholics specifically, 45%. Among former evangelicals, 34%. So, there is a former evangelicals, 34%. So, there is a former evangelicals, 34%. So, there is a gap there, but it's not that big. It's gap there, but it's not that big. It's gap there, but it's not that big. It's either almost half or more than a third. either almost half or more than a third. either almost half or more than a third. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. For Pew, quote, "Scandals involving For Pew, quote, "Scandals involving For Pew, quote, "Scandals involving clergy or religious leaders," 32% of all clergy or religious leaders," 32% of all clergy or religious leaders," 32% of all who left cite this as extremely {slash} who left cite this as extremely {slash} who left cite this as extremely {slash} very important. So, very important. So, very important. So, the reason we rated this moderate high the reason we rated this moderate high the reason we rated this moderate high versus like super high is because there versus like super high is because there versus like super high is because there is like is like is like the numbers aren't perfectly clean the numbers aren't perfectly clean the numbers aren't perfectly clean between these two, but like between these two, but like between these two, but like that's just for the for the context of that's just for the for the context of that's just for the for the context of like reading data, and we don't want to like reading data, and we don't want to like reading data, and we don't want to like overstate something, but I am very like overstate something, but I am very like overstate something, but I am very confident that this matters. And confident that this matters. And confident that this matters. And if the first point was people leave the if the first point was people leave the if the first point was people leave the church because they stop believing. And church because they stop believing. And church because they stop believing. And the second reason was the second reason was the second reason was Why are they leaving? Well, you know, Why are they leaving? Well, you know, Why are they leaving? Well, you know, it's just a slow drift, but this one is it's just a slow drift, but this one is it's just a slow drift, but this one is like except for like except for like except for when trust is eroded when trust is eroded when trust is eroded it's one of the bigger contributors.

it's one of the bigger contributors. it's one of the bigger contributors. And to me And to me And to me we wanted [snorts] to highlight this we wanted [snorts] to highlight this we wanted [snorts] to highlight this because we don't want you to feel because we don't want you to feel because we don't want you to feel powerless. powerless. powerless. We want you to think if there was We want you to think if there was We want you to think if there was something, if we had to like just over something, if we had to like just over something, if we had to like just over index on anything, what would it be? And index on anything, what would it be? And index on anything, what would it be? And the answer is trust. We talked about the answer is trust. We talked about the answer is trust. We talked about this on last week's episode. Like, why this on last week's episode. Like, why this on last week's episode. Like, why do an episode where do an episode where do an episode where we make a point to really say, "By the we make a point to really say, "By the we make a point to really say, "By the way, way, way, it's not true that Gen Z is it's not true that Gen Z is it's not true that Gen Z is attending church at unprecedented rates. attending church at unprecedented rates. attending church at unprecedented rates. They're only doing that They're only doing that They're only doing that within people who already go to church. within people who already go to church. within people who already go to church. And the unprecedented number is 1.8 And the unprecedented number is 1.8 And the unprecedented number is 1.8 services per month for millennials and services per month for millennials and services per month for millennials and 1.9 for Gen Z. So, yes, it's 1.9 for Gen Z. So, yes, it's 1.9 for Gen Z. So, yes, it's unprecedented in that it's never unprecedented in that it's never unprecedented in that it's never happened before, but the gap is not like happened before, but the gap is not like happened before, but the gap is not like so crazy that you would even want to use so crazy that you would even want to use so crazy that you would even want to use the word unprecedented. Yeah. And we're the word unprecedented. Yeah. And we're the word unprecedented. Yeah. And we're not trying to throw cold water on it. not trying to throw cold water on it. not trying to throw cold water on it. We're trying to say, "If we make claims, We're trying to say, "If we make claims, We're trying to say, "If we make claims, we want them to be true because when we want them to be true because when we want them to be true because when they are invariably discovered to be they are invariably discovered to be they are invariably discovered to be untrue, what is the consequence of that? untrue, what is the consequence of that? untrue, what is the consequence of that? Erosion of trust." And erosion of trust Erosion of trust." And erosion of trust Erosion of trust." And erosion of trust I put in the bucket here of scandals.

I put in the bucket here of scandals. I put in the bucket here of scandals. Because an erosion of trust on the Because an erosion of trust on the Because an erosion of trust on the sexual side, yes, is probably of grander sexual side, yes, is probably of grander sexual side, yes, is probably of grander scale. But if you have heard something scale. But if you have heard something scale. But if you have heard something from stage and you believe what's said from stage and you believe what's said from stage and you believe what's said from stage, and then you discover from stage, and then you discover from stage, and then you discover something to be untrue said from stage, something to be untrue said from stage, something to be untrue said from stage, it will probably cause you to question it will probably cause you to question it will probably cause you to question anything that you hear from stage. And anything that you hear from stage. And anything that you hear from stage. And this is why I think there's great merit this is why I think there's great merit this is why I think there's great merit to churches being active on social media to churches being active on social media to churches being active on social media Mhm. and creating content that's great Mhm. and creating content that's great Mhm. and creating content that's great where we repurpose the wisdom of where we repurpose the wisdom of where we repurpose the wisdom of scripture and show how it's for all scripture and show how it's for all scripture and show how it's for all people for all time. And there's great people for all time. And there's great people for all time. And there's great merit to creating content like when merit to creating content like when merit to creating content like when youth groups show how awesome youth youth groups show how awesome youth youth groups show how awesome youth group is with the underlying philosophy group is with the underlying philosophy group is with the underlying philosophy of show, don't tell. Because every of show, don't tell. Because every of show, don't tell. Because every single one of those posts single one of those posts single one of those posts plays a tiny micro role plays a tiny micro role plays a tiny micro role in bringing back trust to an institution in bringing back trust to an institution in bringing back trust to an institution that has lost it. For one person who can that has lost it. For one person who can that has lost it. For one person who can see it and go, "Okay, like see it and go, "Okay, like see it and go, "Okay, like when you present the Bible in that way, when you present the Bible in that way, when you present the Bible in that way, it does make a lot of sense." And that it does make a lot of sense." And that it does make a lot of sense." And that post on its own is not going to undo post on its own is not going to undo post on its own is not going to undo anything. anything. anything. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> But if we know that institutionally, we >> But if we know that institutionally, we >> But if we know that institutionally, we as the church are working from the back as the church are working from the back as the church are working from the back foot with trust.

foot with trust. foot with trust. And we have a platform that allows us to And we have a platform that allows us to And we have a platform that allows us to share the good news share the good news share the good news that we know deserves to be trusted. And that we know deserves to be trusted. And that we know deserves to be trusted. And we can share it to the entire world we can share it to the entire world we can share it to the entire world where more than half of all people are where more than half of all people are where more than half of all people are there. there. there. Yes, hopefully and reasonably that will Yes, hopefully and reasonably that will Yes, hopefully and reasonably that will make a difference in forming the people make a difference in forming the people make a difference in forming the people that go to your church and introducing that go to your church and introducing that go to your church and introducing your church to new people and being a your church to new people and being a your church to new people and being a useful post for when someone lands on useful post for when someone lands on useful post for when someone lands on your Instagram page and evaluates your your Instagram page and evaluates your your Instagram page and evaluates your church and considers coming in person. church and considers coming in person. church and considers coming in person. But maybe there's an even greater reason But maybe there's an even greater reason But maybe there's an even greater reason of us undoing the damage that's been of us undoing the damage that's been of us undoing the damage that's been done to collectively bring back trust in done to collectively bring back trust in done to collectively bring back trust in church. I saw a great post uh this week church. I saw a great post uh this week church. I saw a great post uh this week from uh Rich Wilkerson and Levi Lusko. from uh Rich Wilkerson and Levi Lusko. from uh Rich Wilkerson and Levi Lusko. Two pastors. And they were talking about Two pastors. And they were talking about Two pastors. And they were talking about the value of church in a culture the value of church in a culture the value of church in a culture where you never rub shoulders with where you never rub shoulders with where you never rub shoulders with strangers in a culture where you never strangers in a culture where you never strangers in a culture where you never just sit and listen to someone just sit and listen to someone just sit and listen to someone without like checking your phone. without like checking your phone. without like checking your phone. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And where you never just listen to And where you never just listen to And where you never just listen to listen to someone for maybe an hour or listen to someone for maybe an hour or listen to someone for maybe an hour or 30 minutes who you probably disagree 30 minutes who you probably disagree 30 minutes who you probably disagree with on some things. And how useful all with on some things. And how useful all with on some things. And how useful all of those things are in a culture that's of those things are in a culture that's of those things are in a culture that's absent of all of them. And I found that absent of all of them. And I found that absent of all of them. And I found that to me as like a drop in my bucket of, to me as like a drop in my bucket of, to me as like a drop in my bucket of, "You know what? Yeah, those are all "You know what? Yeah, those are all "You know what? Yeah, those are all great reasons." And I love church, but great reasons." And I love church, but great reasons." And I love church, but it was like a positive like move the it was like a positive like move the it was like a positive like move the needle forward just a little iota in the needle forward just a little iota in the needle forward just a little iota in the right direction. Yeah. And if we can all right direction. Yeah. And if we can all right direction. Yeah. And if we can all do that collectively, do that collectively, do that collectively, what that means is when someone comes to what that means is when someone comes to what that means is when someone comes to your church, maybe they're just a little your church, maybe they're just a little your church, maybe they're just a little bit further down the road in a place bit further down the road in a place bit further down the road in a place where I'm a little open to trusting, where I'm a little open to trusting, where I'm a little open to trusting, whereas before they were maybe fully whereas before they were maybe fully whereas before they were maybe fully closed off.

closed off. closed off. Yeah, and it's Yeah, and it's Yeah, and it's in my view, it's imperative to in my view, it's imperative to in my view, it's imperative to both to know and then acknowledge as both to know and then acknowledge as both to know and then acknowledge as true. You know, there's a dichotomy true. You know, there's a dichotomy true. You know, there's a dichotomy between the audience that we have uh on between the audience that we have uh on between the audience that we have uh on this show and and in [snorts] this uh this show and and in [snorts] this uh this show and and in [snorts] this uh company comparatively to like the company comparatively to like the company comparatively to like the audience that I have at my church. In on audience that I have at my church. In on audience that I have at my church. In on this show, in this company, in this this show, in this company, in this this show, in this company, in this space, I know that Brady Shearer, space, I know that Brady Shearer, space, I know that Brady Shearer, ProChurch Tools, has like an ProChurch Tools, has like an ProChurch Tools, has like an overwhelming amount of of institutional overwhelming amount of of institutional overwhelming amount of of institutional trust in this space. And that liberates trust in this space. And that liberates trust in this space. And that liberates us to create content in a certain way. us to create content in a certain way. us to create content in a certain way. It just does. It just does. It just does. Comparatively to the church where I Comparatively to the church where I Comparatively to the church where I pastor, because I am not learning about pastor, because I am not learning about pastor, because I am not learning about this right now here on the show. I've this right now here on the show. I've this right now here on the show. I've known this for a long time about trust known this for a long time about trust known this for a long time about trust and acknowledge it to be true. and acknowledge it to be true. and acknowledge it to be true. I you mentioned it earlier, the church I you mentioned it earlier, the church I you mentioned it earlier, the church is kind of like working from the back is kind of like working from the back is kind of like working from the back foot when it comes to folks coming into foot when it comes to folks coming into foot when it comes to folks coming into the institution as far as their trust the institution as far as their trust the institution as far as their trust levels go. levels go. levels go. And, you know, I as we talk about this, And, you know, I as we talk about this, And, you know, I as we talk about this, I I see there's a I I see there's a I I see there's a I know there are folks in our community I know there are folks in our community I know there are folks in our community who are giving church the final try in who are giving church the final try in who are giving church the final try in our in our in our congregation. I know our in our in our congregation. I know our in our in our congregation. I know it's the last straw because I know their it's the last straw because I know their it's the last straw because I know their story, I know what they've been through story, I know what they've been through story, I know what they've been through in church.

in church. in church. And if I was ignorant to that or refused And if I was ignorant to that or refused And if I was ignorant to that or refused to acknowledge this as true, to acknowledge this as true, to acknowledge this as true, I would make, in my view, the error I would make, in my view, the error I would make, in my view, the error of assuming trust. And probably because of assuming trust. And probably because of assuming trust. And probably because I'm assuming their trust, like not and I'm assuming their trust, like not and I'm assuming their trust, like not and not refusing to acknowledge their hurt, not refusing to acknowledge their hurt, not refusing to acknowledge their hurt, their pain, their current state, I would their pain, their current state, I would their pain, their current state, I would make mistakes that would probably make mistakes that would probably make mistakes that would probably erode their trust to the point where erode their trust to the point where erode their trust to the point where that would be the the final straw. But that would be the the final straw. But that would be the the final straw. But because because because I can see this to be true I can see this to be true I can see this to be true on on a broad scale, not just on the on on a broad scale, not just on the on on a broad scale, not just on the internet, but like, you know, boots on internet, but like, you know, boots on internet, but like, you know, boots on the ground kind of thing, the ground kind of thing, the ground kind of thing, then I can treat people with a higher then I can treat people with a higher then I can treat people with a higher degree of care. We can choose to degree of care. We can choose to degree of care. We can choose to communicate in more careful ways, more communicate in more careful ways, more communicate in more careful ways, more thoughtful ways, thoughtful ways, thoughtful ways, um more frankly more pastoral ways that um more frankly more pastoral ways that um more frankly more pastoral ways that takes care of people and makes a safe takes care of people and makes a safe takes care of people and makes a safe space and hopefully earns some more space and hopefully earns some more space and hopefully earns some more trust and gives them the courage to trust and gives them the courage to trust and gives them the courage to stick around, not just stick around at stick around, not just stick around at stick around, not just stick around at my church, but stick around in the my church, but stick around in the my church, but stick around in the family of faith. 100%. So, family of faith. 100%. So, family of faith. 100%. So, what are we seeing here on this final what are we seeing here on this final what are we seeing here on this final item? And we'll wrap up with main item? And we'll wrap up with main item? And we'll wrap up with main takeaways. Cumulative erosion of takeaways. Cumulative erosion of takeaways. Cumulative erosion of institutional credibility across institutional credibility across institutional credibility across all traditions. Catholics, evangelicals, all traditions. Catholics, evangelicals, all traditions. Catholics, evangelicals, what are these scandals? There's what are these scandals? There's what are these scandals? There's financial, leadership failures, financial, leadership failures, financial, leadership failures, cover-ups, hypocrisy. It's not just the cover-ups, hypocrisy. It's not just the cover-ups, hypocrisy. It's not just the leader who's discovered with, you know, leader who's discovered with, you know, leader who's discovered with, you know, sexual failings. Like just hypocrisy, sexual failings. Like just hypocrisy, sexual failings. Like just hypocrisy, things not adding up. I remember in things not adding up. I remember in things not adding up. I remember in youth group seeing that with my youth youth group seeing that with my youth youth group seeing that with my youth pastor. I don't really blame him for pastor. I don't really blame him for pastor. I don't really blame him for this, this, this, but he would just like sometimes say but he would just like sometimes say but he would just like sometimes say things that were like different from things that were like different from things that were like different from other things. And like those small other things. And like those small other things. And like those small moments maybe just go, "Okay, should I moments maybe just go, "Okay, should I moments maybe just go, "Okay, should I question everything just a little bit question everything just a little bit question everything just a little bit more?" And I would have to like, you

more?" And I would have to like, you more?" And I would have to like, you know, follow up or I'd have to dig into know, follow up or I'd have to dig into know, follow up or I'd have to dig into things for myself. And so, as much as we things for myself. And so, as much as we things for myself. And so, as much as we can avoid these because each one does can avoid these because each one does can avoid these because each one does chip away at the trust that, as we've chip away at the trust that, as we've chip away at the trust that, as we've established, younger generations are established, younger generations are established, younger generations are kind of already starting with. kind of already starting with. kind of already starting with. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Big takeaways. Number one reason people Big takeaways. Number one reason people Big takeaways. Number one reason people leave is because they stopped leave is because they stopped leave is because they stopped believing. Not politics, not programs, believing. Not politics, not programs, believing. Not politics, not programs, not style. not style. not style. Number two and number three reasons are Number two and number three reasons are Number two and number three reasons are that, you know, it's a quiet and not that, you know, it's a quiet and not that, you know, it's a quiet and not especially dramatic exit. It just wasn't especially dramatic exit. It just wasn't especially dramatic exit. It just wasn't important to me and I gradually drifted important to me and I gradually drifted important to me and I gradually drifted away. Each cited by 38% away. Each cited by 38% away. Each cited by 38% of people that are not believing as they of people that are not believing as they of people that are not believing as they grow up into adults. So, what can we do? grow up into adults. So, what can we do? grow up into adults. So, what can we do? Childhood experience is the strongest Childhood experience is the strongest Childhood experience is the strongest predictor. 84% with positive childhood predictor. 84% with positive childhood predictor. 84% with positive childhood experiences stay. 69% with negative experiences stay. 69% with negative experiences stay. 69% with negative experiences end up becoming nuns, experiences end up becoming nuns, experiences end up becoming nuns, non-affiliated with faith whatsoever. If non-affiliated with faith whatsoever. If non-affiliated with faith whatsoever. If you are under investing in children's you are under investing in children's you are under investing in children's and youth ministry, make a change. make a change. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And then finally, And then finally, And then finally, pastoral abuse, clergy abuse, scandals pastoral abuse, clergy abuse, scandals pastoral abuse, clergy abuse, scandals are a reason for leaving that has are a reason for leaving that has are a reason for leaving that has doubled in 8 years. So yes, the biggest doubled in 8 years. So yes, the biggest doubled in 8 years. So yes, the biggest things are these quiet exits, but if things are these quiet exits, but if things are these quiet exits, but if there is one thing to focus on, it would there is one thing to focus on, it would there is one thing to focus on, it would be establishing, building, retaining, be establishing, building, retaining, be establishing, building, retaining, and protecting trust. Making decisions and protecting trust. Making decisions and protecting trust. Making decisions that might even be in the short term that might even be in the short term that might even be in the short term a little bit inefficient. You know, to a little bit inefficient. You know, to a little bit inefficient. You know, to be fully effective, we might do this be fully effective, we might do this be fully effective, we might do this this and this.

this and this. this and this. But for the long term, we're going to do But for the long term, we're going to do But for the long term, we're going to do this. this. this. To use like a marketing example, To use like a marketing example, To use like a marketing example, >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> there >> there >> there are people that are coming to your are people that are coming to your are people that are coming to your church church church that feel that feel that feel like what it's like, I'm guessing, to go like what it's like, I'm guessing, to go like what it's like, I'm guessing, to go and buy a car at like a dealership. So and buy a car at like a dealership. So and buy a car at like a dealership. So think about the posture you go to into think about the posture you go to into think about the posture you go to into buying a car at a dealership. You're all buying a car at a dealership. You're all buying a car at a dealership. You're all right, I got to get myself in the zone. right, I got to get myself in the zone. right, I got to get myself in the zone. I am going to walk away. I am going to walk away. I am going to walk away. I am going to win this interaction. Like I am going to win this interaction. Like I am going to win this interaction. Like you go in and you're just so guarded, you go in and you're just so guarded, you go in and you're just so guarded, right? Why? Because the reputation of right? Why? Because the reputation of right? Why? Because the reputation of cars salesmen cars salesmen cars salesmen is what it is. is what it is. is what it is. If that could be completely undone, like If that could be completely undone, like If that could be completely undone, like when I bought my Tesla, I didn't go in when I bought my Tesla, I didn't go in when I bought my Tesla, I didn't go in thinking that. Cuz I just like bought it thinking that. Cuz I just like bought it thinking that. Cuz I just like bought it online and like it was just agreed to online and like it was just agreed to online and like it was just agreed to and it was like it was done. It was a and it was like it was done. It was a and it was like it was done. It was a completely different buying experience. completely different buying experience. completely different buying experience. And so I didn't have that same posture And so I didn't have that same posture And so I didn't have that same posture despite having the same need, I need to despite having the same need, I need to despite having the same need, I need to buy a new car. buy a new car. buy a new car. So, So, So, what could that look like what could that look like what could that look like again in marketing language? Let's again in marketing language? Let's again in marketing language? Let's imagine like you're selling something. imagine like you're selling something. imagine like you're selling something. You could sell it with like really high You could sell it with like really high You could sell it with like really high urgency and like super salesy tactics, urgency and like super salesy tactics, urgency and like super salesy tactics, really commercial, and it would probably really commercial, and it would probably really commercial, and it would probably be like efficient in the sense that it be like efficient in the sense that it be like efficient in the sense that it might might might bring an uptick in conversions.

bring an uptick in conversions. bring an uptick in conversions. Then you could sell something where Then you could sell something where Then you could sell something where you're just like really laid back and you're just like really laid back and you're just like really laid back and you're not trying to like force a sale. you're not trying to like force a sale. you're not trying to like force a sale. You're just be like, "Hey, like we've You're just be like, "Hey, like we've You're just be like, "Hey, like we've been doing this for like this many been doing this for like this many been doing this for like this many years. This many people trust us and, years. This many people trust us and, years. This many people trust us and, you know, we think that it would be you know, we think that it would be you know, we think that it would be great for you as well." And it probably great for you as well." And it probably great for you as well." And it probably wouldn't be as effective in the short wouldn't be as effective in the short wouldn't be as effective in the short term, but you could trade short term for term, but you could trade short term for term, but you could trade short term for long term. And I'm not suggesting one is long term. And I'm not suggesting one is long term. And I'm not suggesting one is better than the other, but if you're better than the other, but if you're better than the other, but if you're aware of the moment aware of the moment aware of the moment and the posture people have, as Alex so and the posture people have, as Alex so and the posture people have, as Alex so eloquently said, it should inform how eloquently said, it should inform how eloquently said, it should inform how you communicate. And I'm speaking now you communicate. And I'm speaking now you communicate. And I'm speaking now it's like everyone who goes like, "Well, it's like everyone who goes like, "Well, it's like everyone who goes like, "Well, you just need to like speak the truth you just need to like speak the truth you just need to like speak the truth and the truth is what it is." And it's and the truth is what it is." And it's and the truth is what it is." And it's like, "Well, [snorts] yeah, the truth like, "Well, [snorts] yeah, the truth like, "Well, [snorts] yeah, the truth doesn't change, but what we know about doesn't change, but what we know about doesn't change, but what we know about communication is that more of it is communication is that more of it is communication is that more of it is nonverbal than verbal." And so, nonverbal than verbal." And so, nonverbal than verbal." And so, [clears throat] how you say something [clears throat] how you say something [clears throat] how you say something matters just as much, if not more, with matters just as much, if not more, with matters just as much, if not more, with what you're saying. what you're saying. what you're saying. And understanding that And understanding that And understanding that means, "Okay, this is their posture. means, "Okay, this is their posture. means, "Okay, this is their posture. This can become my posture." Food for thought. Food for thought. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. If you want to find all the citations, If you want to find all the citations, If you want to find all the citations, they are in the show notes. they are in the show notes. they are in the show notes. You can track them down.

You can track them down. You can track them down. If anything we got was wrong, please If anything we got was wrong, please If anything we got was wrong, please correct us [music] in the comments. correct us [music] in the comments. correct us [music] in the comments. We'll do our best to rectify it. And We'll do our best to rectify it. And We'll do our best to rectify it. And thank you for your time, your attention, thank you for your time, your attention, thank you for your time, your attention, and your trust. and your trust. and your trust. >> Talk to you next week. And I just I >> Talk to you next week. And I just I >> Talk to you next week. And I just I always wonder like always wonder like always wonder like >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> what was left on the table with Ireland. >> what was left on the table with Ireland. >> what was left on the table with Ireland. Like, what would have Ireland been if it Like, what would have Ireland been if it Like, what would have Ireland been if it wasn't for wasn't for wasn't for What was it? [music] Ophelia? What was it? [music] Ophelia? What was it? [music] Ophelia? Ophelia.