America’s Churches Are Closing. What’s Next?

more churches in America every year are more churches in America every year are closing than are opening today we're closing than are opening today we're closing than are opening today we're talking to the pastor of a church that talking to the pastor of a church that talking to the pastor of a church that made the decision to close their Church made the decision to close their Church made the decision to close their Church earlier this year this is a church that earlier this year this is a church that earlier this year this is a church that opened its doors for the first time more opened its doors for the first time more opened its doors for the first time more than 150 years ago we wanted to hear than 150 years ago we wanted to hear than 150 years ago we wanted to hear this story firsthand but also talk about this story firsthand but also talk about this story firsthand but also talk about the broader implications that this the broader implications that this the broader implications that this Rising Trend could have on the future of Rising Trend could have on the future of Rising Trend could have on the future of the Christian faith in America let's the Christian faith in America let's the Christian faith in America let's dive dive dive in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro in well hey there and welcome to the pro Church tools show we're here to help you Church tools show we're here to help you Church tools show we're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years I'm communication shift in 500 years I'm communication shift in 500 years I'm Brady Shir host I'm Jo as always by my Brady Shir host I'm Jo as always by my Brady Shir host I'm Jo as always by my co-host it's Alexander Mills hello hello co-host it's Alexander Mills hello hello co-host it's Alexander Mills hello hello and back again we are joined by Ryan and back again we are joined by Ryan and back again we are joined by Ryan Burge Ryan great to see you great to see Burge Ryan great to see you great to see Burge Ryan great to see you great to see you guys Ryan thanks for joining us you guys Ryan thanks for joining us you guys Ryan thanks for joining us again um and as the title of this show again um and as the title of this show again um and as the title of this show says like we don't want to shy away from says like we don't want to shy away from says like we don't want to shy away from it um you frankly you're still in the it um you frankly you're still in the it um you frankly you're still in the the recent wake of recently closing a the recent wake of recently closing a the recent wake of recently closing a church that you pastored for nearly two church that you pastored for nearly two church that you pastored for nearly two decades and so today we we want to talk decades and so today we we want to talk decades and so today we we want to talk about it but we don't want to talk about about it but we don't want to talk about about it but we don't want to talk about it in a way that's like you know a a it in a way that's like you know a a it in a way that's like you know a a postmortem uh exactly cuz we've followed postmortem uh exactly cuz we've followed postmortem uh exactly cuz we've followed your work for years and and really your work for years and and really your work for years and and really appreciated you and the Insight you appreciated you and the Insight you appreciated you and the Insight you bring to this space and then more bring to this space and then more bring to this space and then more recently we've had the opportunity to recently we've had the opportunity to recently we've had the opportunity to bring you on the show and and become bring you on the show and and become bring you on the show and and become friends so um you know today we want to friends so um you know today we want to friends so um you know today we want to talk to you as a person as a pastor and talk to you as a person as a pastor and talk to you as a person as a pastor and also as like a church demographic also as like a church demographic also as like a church demographic researcher because in the context of researcher because in the context of researcher because in the context of this conversation all of those things this conversation all of those things this conversation all of those things kind of intersect in a really really kind of intersect in a really really kind of intersect in a really really fascinating way um and and just said fascinating way um and and just said fascinating way um and and just said plainly you recently closed the doors of plainly you recently closed the doors of plainly you recently closed the doors of your church and so we do want to talk your church and so we do want to talk your church and so we do want to talk about that uh but I want to I want to about that uh but I want to I want to about that uh but I want to I want to start where you started um so tell me start where you started um so tell me start where you started um so tell me tell me a little bit about the church tell me a little bit about the church tell me a little bit about the church and the congregation that you inherited

and the congregation that you inherited and the congregation that you inherited um when you began pastoring at First um when you began pastoring at First um when you began pastoring at First Baptist Church of Mount Vernon in 2006 Baptist Church of Mount Vernon in 2006 Baptist Church of Mount Vernon in 2006 yeah so i' I'd been a youth pastor for a yeah so i' I'd been a youth pastor for a yeah so i' I'd been a youth pastor for a couple years little church in centrell couple years little church in centrell couple years little church in centrell Illinois kind of fell in Ministry to be Illinois kind of fell in Ministry to be Illinois kind of fell in Ministry to be honest with you I never had that Isaiah honest with you I never had that Isaiah honest with you I never had that Isaiah 6 moment you know where it's like Here I 6 moment you know where it's like Here I 6 moment you know where it's like Here I Am Lord send me and I had this kind of Am Lord send me and I had this kind of Am Lord send me and I had this kind of like Epiphany that I was supposed to be like Epiphany that I was supposed to be like Epiphany that I was supposed to be a minister but I did that for as be a a minister but I did that for as be a a minister but I did that for as be a three-month internship turned into a three-month internship turned into a three-month internship turned into a three-year gig and then I pastored a three-year gig and then I pastored a three-year gig and then I pastored a little church in Maran Illinois for a little church in Maran Illinois for a little church in Maran Illinois for a year and I actually was trying to leave year and I actually was trying to leave year and I actually was trying to leave the ministry to be honest with you um I the ministry to be honest with you um I the ministry to be honest with you um I got an assistantship in grad school got an assistantship in grad school got an assistantship in grad school which paid me to work for them and get which paid me to work for them and get which paid me to work for them and get free tuition and all that good stuff and free tuition and all that good stuff and free tuition and all that good stuff and I thought well that's that'll be fine I thought well that's that'll be fine I thought well that's that'll be fine and then maybe I can preach on the and then maybe I can preach on the and then maybe I can preach on the weekends every once in a while and they weekends every once in a while and they weekends every once in a while and they called me First Baptist in my Veron called me First Baptist in my Veron called me First Baptist in my Veron called me I and I preached one Sunday called me I and I preached one Sunday called me I and I preached one Sunday they called will you preach next Sunday they called will you preach next Sunday they called will you preach next Sunday I said sure and then they called up and I said sure and then they called up and I said sure and then they called up and said would you like to be our pastor said would you like to be our pastor said would you like to be our pastor this was the interim pastor at that this was the interim pastor at that this was the interim pastor at that point and I said I guess I mean if point and I said I guess I mean if point and I said I guess I mean if that's what you want me to do and uh it that's what you want me to do and uh it that's what you want me to do and uh it turned into a 17 and A2 year position uh turned into a 17 and A2 year position uh turned into a 17 and A2 year position uh went from 20 you know my my mid 20s to went from 20 you know my my mid 20s to went from 20 you know my my mid 20s to my early 40s um as the pastor of First my early 40s um as the pastor of First my early 40s um as the pastor of First Baptist Church when I got there in 2006 Baptist Church when I got there in 2006 Baptist Church when I got there in 2006 there were about 50 people on an average there were about 50 people on an average there were about 50 people on an average Sunday and uh I was in my mid 20s and Sunday and uh I was in my mid 20s and Sunday and uh I was in my mid 20s and the youngest person besides me was in the youngest person besides me was in the youngest person besides me was in their mid-50s so it was already an older their mid-50s so it was already an older their mid-50s so it was already an older congregation even in those days and it congregation even in those days and it congregation even in those days and it was a a female leaning congregation and was a a female leaning congregation and was a a female leaning congregation and a congregation that had been in Decline a congregation that had been in Decline a congregation that had been in Decline for a long long time it was 350 people for a long long time it was 350 people for a long long time it was 350 people in the 1960s it was 100 people in the in the 1960s it was 100 people in the in the 1960s it was 100 people in the mid 1990s and like I said when I took mid 1990s and like I said when I took mid 1990s and like I said when I took over it it was in the in the 50s and I

over it it was in the in the 50s and I over it it was in the in the 50s and I think in the beginning they thought that think in the beginning they thought that think in the beginning they thought that I was going to be the spark that was I was going to be the spark that was I was going to be the spark that was necessary to grow the church back to necessary to grow the church back to necessary to grow the church back to what it was before and you know I think what it was before and you know I think what it was before and you know I think we all had that mentality for the first we all had that mentality for the first we all had that mentality for the first couple of years and you know as you guys couple of years and you know as you guys couple of years and you know as you guys know that did not happen um the church know that did not happen um the church know that did not happen um the church actually never grew year to year we actually never grew year to year we actually never grew year to year we declined slowly some years but we never declined slowly some years but we never declined slowly some years but we never had a year we actually added more people had a year we actually added more people had a year we actually added more people than we lost did you did you feel that than we lost did you did you feel that than we lost did you did you feel that sentiment too when you when you joined sentiment too when you when you joined sentiment too when you when you joined you know you mentioned you kind of did you know you mentioned you kind of did you know you mentioned you kind of did it reluctantly or as my dad would say in it reluctantly or as my dad would say in it reluctantly or as my dad would say in his pastoral Journey Kicking and his pastoral Journey Kicking and his pastoral Journey Kicking and Screaming but there's an an an elderly Screaming but there's an an an elderly Screaming but there's an an an elderly woman in our congregation who famously woman in our congregation who famously woman in our congregation who famously says hey when you do a job once and you says hey when you do a job once and you says hey when you do a job once and you do it right it's going to be your job do it right it's going to be your job do it right it's going to be your job forever and so it seems like seems like forever and so it seems like seems like forever and so it seems like seems like that may have been your experience you that may have been your experience you that may have been your experience you know when at at your church but was that know when at at your church but was that know when at at your church but was that your sense too when you when you decided your sense too when you when you decided your sense too when you when you decided okay I'm going to accept this call I'm okay I'm going to accept this call I'm okay I'm going to accept this call I'm going to be the pastor did you feel like going to be the pastor did you feel like going to be the pastor did you feel like hey we can do this we can turn the ship hey we can do this we can turn the ship hey we can do this we can turn the ship around yeah oh I yeah I mean I was a big around yeah oh I yeah I mean I was a big around yeah oh I yeah I mean I was a big believer in there's an old saying from believer in there's an old saying from believer in there's an old saying from from John Wesley that you set yourself from John Wesley that you set yourself from John Wesley that you set yourself on fire people will come to watch you on fire people will come to watch you on fire people will come to watch you burn and I thought if I preached well burn and I thought if I preached well burn and I thought if I preached well enough and I you know ministered well enough and I you know ministered well enough and I you know ministered well enough and I led well enough and I did enough and I led well enough and I did enough and I led well enough and I did all these things well enough that we you all these things well enough that we you all these things well enough that we you know any congregation is know any congregation is know any congregation is salvageable right we could turn this salvageable right we could turn this salvageable right we could turn this thing around and I guess that's like thing around and I guess that's like thing around and I guess that's like Youth naev too right like you know the Youth naev too right like you know the Youth naev too right like you know the Savior complex that a lot of you know to Savior complex that a lot of you know to Savior complex that a lot of you know to be frank white guys have about these be frank white guys have about these be frank white guys have about these kind of things like I get me in there kind of things like I get me in there kind of things like I get me in there and I can I can write this ship and and and I can I can write this ship and and and I can I can write this ship and and I I think I don't know how it happened I I think I don't know how it happened I I think I don't know how it happened but it happened very slowly I think the but it happened very slowly I think the but it happened very slowly I think the congregation and myself both came to the congregation and myself both came to the congregation and myself both came to the realization probably 3 or four years in

realization probably 3 or four years in realization probably 3 or four years in that man we were probably too far gone that man we were probably too far gone that man we were probably too far gone and and once you get below a certain and and once you get below a certain and and once you get below a certain point it's not impossible to turn a point it's not impossible to turn a point it's not impossible to turn a church around don't don't mishear me church around don't don't mishear me church around don't don't mishear me there it's just a whole lot harder once there it's just a whole lot harder once there it's just a whole lot harder once you get below about 50 people and the you get below about 50 people and the you get below about 50 people and the average age drifts up into the 60s like average age drifts up into the 60s like average age drifts up into the 60s like I had every once in a while we'd have a I had every once in a while we'd have a I had every once in a while we'd have a young couple come in they'd look around young couple come in they'd look around young couple come in they'd look around and they'd go wow this is you know i' and they'd go wow this is you know i' and they'd go wow this is you know i' I'd like to hear you preach but I don't I'd like to hear you preach but I don't I'd like to hear you preach but I don't want to be around 65 75 old people in want to be around 65 75 old people in want to be around 65 75 old people in church and so they would go to the other church and so they would go to the other church and so they would go to the other Church down the street that has a much Church down the street that has a much Church down the street that has a much younger demographic so it's really younger demographic so it's really younger demographic so it's really really hard to recover and you know I really hard to recover and you know I really hard to recover and you know I was kind of in a situation where the was kind of in a situation where the was kind of in a situation where the church was already going to die before I church was already going to die before I church was already going to die before I took over and unfortunately I was just took over and unfortunately I was just took over and unfortunately I was just incapable or you know it didn't happen incapable or you know it didn't happen incapable or you know it didn't happen we're you know the church was just went we're you know the church was just went we're you know the church was just went on the same trajectory it always was on on the same trajectory it always was on on the same trajectory it always was on which was toward our closure so you said which was toward our closure so you said which was toward our closure so you said something interesting there three to something interesting there three to something interesting there three to four years in to you being the pastor four years in to you being the pastor four years in to you being the pastor you and the Elder board like the you and the Elder board like the you and the Elder board like the congregation is kind of getting a feel congregation is kind of getting a feel congregation is kind of getting a feel of like where this is heading if you of like where this is heading if you of like where this is heading if you start in 2006 that means like that's start in 2006 that means like that's start in 2006 that means like that's 2010 so 15 years elapsed before the 2010 so 15 years elapsed before the 2010 so 15 years elapsed before the official final Sunday service what took official final Sunday service what took official final Sunday service what took so long or what's happening within those so long or what's happening within those so long or what's happening within those 15 years if you already felt like hey we 15 years if you already felt like hey we 15 years if you already felt like hey we know where this is headed yeah I think know where this is headed yeah I think know where this is headed yeah I think it's um you know Ernest hyway was asked it's um you know Ernest hyway was asked it's um you know Ernest hyway was asked how he went bankrupt and he said really how he went bankrupt and he said really how he went bankrupt and he said really slowly than all at once and that's kind slowly than all at once and that's kind slowly than all at once and that's kind of how it felt with our churches we all of how it felt with our churches we all of how it felt with our churches we all we all knew where we were headed but no we all knew where we were headed but no we all knew where we were headed but no one wanted to talk about it you know I one wanted to talk about it you know I one wanted to talk about it you know I think that's the issue is cuz it's like think that's the issue is cuz it's like think that's the issue is cuz it's like you can talk about it all you want but you can talk about it all you want but you can talk about it all you want but it's not going to change the the the it's not going to change the the the it's not going to change the the the reality of where we're headed so it was reality of where we're headed so it was reality of where we're headed so it was you know it was all like side you know it was all like side you know it was all like side conversations of like well we need to

conversations of like well we need to conversations of like well we need to you know loan some money from our wills you know loan some money from our wills you know loan some money from our wills and bequest fund to our general fund to and bequest fund to our general fund to and bequest fund to our general fund to stay open this year and wow we tend to stay open this year and wow we tend to stay open this year and wow we tend to be doing that more and more every year be doing that more and more every year be doing that more and more every year now and man this building is becoming a now and man this building is becoming a now and man this building is becoming a real Albatross a financial Albatross on real Albatross a financial Albatross on real Albatross a financial Albatross on our necks we need to figure out a way to our necks we need to figure out a way to our necks we need to figure out a way to get rid of that so it was it a true get rid of that so it was it a true get rid of that so it was it a true Midwestern Style by the way you don't Midwestern Style by the way you don't Midwestern Style by the way you don't talk about the big thing you talk about talk about the big thing you talk about talk about the big thing you talk about the other parts of the big thing and the other parts of the big thing and the other parts of the big thing and it's not the church closing it's well it's not the church closing it's well it's not the church closing it's well how do we make it one more year and how how do we make it one more year and how how do we make it one more year and how do we make it two more years and how do do we make it two more years and how do do we make it two more years and how do we get rid of this problem and how do we we get rid of this problem and how do we we get rid of this problem and how do we overcome this thing so it was only like overcome this thing so it was only like overcome this thing so it was only like the the focus always on what's the thing the the focus always on what's the thing the the focus always on what's the thing in front of us immediately not the big in front of us immediately not the big in front of us immediately not the big question that's looming at the end of question that's looming at the end of question that's looming at the end of the tracks and then we got to a point the tracks and then we got to a point the tracks and then we got to a point where all those obstacles that were where all those obstacles that were where all those obstacles that were before the the big decision at the end before the the big decision at the end before the the big decision at the end had been removed and we were only left had been removed and we were only left had been removed and we were only left with the big scary thing at the end and with the big scary thing at the end and with the big scary thing at the end and it's it's it's funny because in our last it's it's it's funny because in our last it's it's it's funny because in our last when we first started talking about this when we first started talking about this when we first started talking about this seriously was probably the start of the seriously was probably the start of the seriously was probably the start of the year and we had business meeting and you year and we had business meeting and you year and we had business meeting and you know we I thought about that business know we I thought about that business know we I thought about that business meeting in my head for years how was it meeting in my head for years how was it meeting in my head for years how was it going to go when when someone actually going to go when when someone actually going to go when when someone actually made the motion to close the church made the motion to close the church made the motion to close the church would there be fighting would there be would there be fighting would there be would there be fighting would there be discussion would there be yelling would discussion would there be yelling would discussion would there be yelling would there be dissension and there was none there be dissension and there was none there be dissension and there was none of that I think that whole meeting of that I think that whole meeting of that I think that whole meeting lasted 20 minutes from start to finish I lasted 20 minutes from start to finish I lasted 20 minutes from start to finish I mean there was no one who stood up and mean there was no one who stood up and mean there was no one who stood up and said no we should keep this thing going said no we should keep this thing going said no we should keep this thing going everyone just sort of was resigned to everyone just sort of was resigned to everyone just sort of was resigned to their fate so I think that 10 or 15 their fate so I think that 10 or 15 their fate so I think that 10 or 15 years was a process of all all of us years was a process of all all of us years was a process of all all of us coming to the realization that there was coming to the realization that there was coming to the realization that there was time to pull the plug and I think we time to pull the plug and I think we time to pull the plug and I think we were all no not that we were all happy were all no not that we were all happy were all no not that we were all happy about it but I think we were all about it but I think we were all about it but I think we were all resigned to where we were and there was resigned to where we were and there was resigned to where we were and there was just no reason to fight because we knew just no reason to fight because we knew just no reason to fight because we knew there was nothing to fight for at that there was nothing to fight for at that there was nothing to fight for at that point really I think you touched on this

point really I think you touched on this point really I think you touched on this a bit in an article you wrote in 2021 an a bit in an article you wrote in 2021 an a bit in an article you wrote in 2021 an article I I found a lot of value in uh article I I found a lot of value in uh article I I found a lot of value in uh it was an opinion piece for RNs called it was an opinion piece for RNs called it was an opinion piece for RNs called um as a pastor I pray my flock comes um as a pastor I pray my flock comes um as a pastor I pray my flock comes back but as a religion demographer I'm back but as a religion demographer I'm back but as a religion demographer I'm much more realistic uh and in that much more realistic uh and in that much more realistic uh and in that article you talk about you know the the article you talk about you know the the article you talk about you know the the waning congregation that you were waning congregation that you were waning congregation that you were serving and and you were saying like hey serving and and you were saying like hey serving and and you were saying like hey I'm not alone we're not alone what we're I'm not alone we're not alone what we're I'm not alone we're not alone what we're seeing because we know that pastors and seeing because we know that pastors and seeing because we know that pastors and congregations all over the country are congregations all over the country are congregations all over the country are seeing the same thing and it's it's the seeing the same thing and it's it's the seeing the same thing and it's it's the number of folks who are not identifying number of folks who are not identifying number of folks who are not identifying with any religious tradition or or we with any religious tradition or or we with any religious tradition or or we call them the nuns um is rising as call them the nuns um is rising as call them the nuns um is rising as congregation sizes are are shrinking and congregation sizes are are shrinking and congregation sizes are are shrinking and you've published a book on this topic you've published a book on this topic you've published a book on this topic we've talked about this um the nuns we've talked about this um the nuns we've talked about this um the nuns where they come from who they are and where they come from who they are and where they come from who they are and where they're going um but here we are where they're going um but here we are where they're going um but here we are in in 2024 so three years after that in in 2024 so three years after that in in 2024 so three years after that article and and your church um has article and and your church um has article and and your church um has celebrated their last Sunday service celebrated their last Sunday service celebrated their last Sunday service but the rise of of nuns as you've but the rise of of nuns as you've but the rise of of nuns as you've recently published seems to have um recently published seems to have um recently published seems to have um plateaued you wrote recently about this plateaued you wrote recently about this plateaued you wrote recently about this on your substack so can you talk to us on your substack so can you talk to us on your substack so can you talk to us now about like what you're seeing today now about like what you're seeing today now about like what you're seeing today in 2024 as a contrast to what we were in 2024 as a contrast to what we were in 2024 as a contrast to what we were seeing in 21 22 even 23 and are are the seeing in 21 22 even 23 and are are the seeing in 21 22 even 23 and are are the rise of nuns has has it plateaued have rise of nuns has has it plateaued have rise of nuns has has it plateaued have have we kind of reached the boiling have we kind of reached the boiling have we kind of reached the boiling point here so I I think we're in point here so I I think we're in point here so I I think we're in actually a really interesting point in actually a really interesting point in actually a really interesting point in the trend line of non-religious people the trend line of non-religious people the trend line of non-religious people so the way I think think about it is so the way I think think about it is so the way I think think about it is between like 1991 and 2020 was uh an era between like 1991 and 2020 was uh an era between like 1991 and 2020 was uh an era and we're going to look back on this in and we're going to look back on this in and we're going to look back on this in 50 years I won't cuz I'll be dead but 50 years I won't cuz I'll be dead but 50 years I won't cuz I'll be dead but other people look back on this in 50 other people look back on this in 50 other people look back on this in 50 years and we'll say like that was an era

years and we'll say like that was an era years and we'll say like that was an era of Rapid secularization in America where of Rapid secularization in America where of Rapid secularization in America where we went from 5% non-religion to 30% we went from 5% non-religion to 30% we went from 5% non-religion to 30% non-religion in a span of three decades non-religion in a span of three decades non-religion in a span of three decades which is incredibly quick and in terms which is incredibly quick and in terms which is incredibly quick and in terms of religious demography doesn't work of religious demography doesn't work of religious demography doesn't work that way it's incredibly glacial most that way it's incredibly glacial most that way it's incredibly glacial most times like you know you might move two times like you know you might move two times like you know you might move two points in five years but you know the points in five years but you know the points in five years but you know the nuns Rose 25 points in 30 years which is nuns Rose 25 points in 30 years which is nuns Rose 25 points in 30 years which is just unbel believable and then I think just unbel believable and then I think just unbel believable and then I think what we're seeing now going forward is what we're seeing now going forward is what we're seeing now going forward is the nuns have slowed down they're still the nuns have slowed down they're still the nuns have slowed down they're still Rising But Rising at a much slower rate Rising But Rising at a much slower rate Rising But Rising at a much slower rate than they were during that 30-year than they were during that 30-year than they were during that 30-year window so you know instead of the nuns window so you know instead of the nuns window so you know instead of the nuns Rising 25 points in the next 30 years Rising 25 points in the next 30 years Rising 25 points in the next 30 years they might rise eight points in the next they might rise eight points in the next they might rise eight points in the next 30 Years or 10 points in the next 30 30 Years or 10 points in the next 30 30 Years or 10 points in the next 30 Years so that the rise is going to Years so that the rise is going to Years so that the rise is going to continue but think of think of like a continue but think of think of like a continue but think of think of like a startup after they've been around for 10 startup after they've been around for 10 startup after they've been around for 10 years in that first you know eight years years in that first you know eight years years in that first you know eight years they're growing exponentially you know they're growing exponentially you know they're growing exponentially you know 60% 80% 100% a year and then you grow 7% 60% 80% 100% a year and then you grow 7% 60% 80% 100% a year and then you grow 7% a year and everyone's happy about it a year and everyone's happy about it a year and everyone's happy about it like I think that's that's where the like I think that's that's where the like I think that's that's where the nuns are right now is that we went nuns are right now is that we went nuns are right now is that we went through a period where a lot of people through a period where a lot of people through a period where a lot of people who are marginally attached to religion who are marginally attached to religion who are marginally attached to religion sort of fell away from religion and were sort of fell away from religion and were sort of fell away from religion and were more likely to identify as non-religious more likely to identify as non-religious more likely to identify as non-religious in the 80 the 90s 2000s and 2010s and in the 80 the 90s 2000s and 2010s and in the 80 the 90s 2000s and 2010s and now whatever's left over the people who now whatever's left over the people who now whatever's left over the people who are still religious are actually much are still religious are actually much are still religious are actually much more attached to religion so it's going more attached to religion so it's going more attached to religion so it's going to be harder for them to become nuns so to be harder for them to become nuns so to be harder for them to become nuns so that's a huge change because it's not that's a huge change because it's not that's a huge change because it's not you know Millions millions of people you know Millions millions of people you know Millions millions of people leaving church now it's just leaving church now it's just leaving church now it's just generational replacement is what's generational replacement is what's generational replacement is what's taking us down which is a much slower taking us down which is a much slower taking us down which is a much slower more methodical process well and and you more methodical process well and and you more methodical process well and and you just said it right like you you ascribed just said it right like you you ascribed just said it right like you you ascribed the rise of nuns simply to to

the rise of nuns simply to to the rise of nuns simply to to secularization which is something that secularization which is something that secularization which is something that as pastors and preachers and just folks as pastors and preachers and just folks as pastors and preachers and just folks who work in church and not even just in who work in church and not even just in who work in church and not even just in church but who live in Western culture church but who live in Western culture church but who live in Western culture are experiencing um in all sorts of are experiencing um in all sorts of are experiencing um in all sorts of different ways and and you know SEC different ways and and you know SEC different ways and and you know SEC secularization simply is just the theory secularization simply is just the theory secularization simply is just the theory that as as Nations become more e that as as Nations become more e that as as Nations become more e educationally Advanced and economically educationally Advanced and economically educationally Advanced and economically prosperous they will in turn become less prosperous they will in turn become less prosperous they will in turn become less religious so you know governments they religious so you know governments they religious so you know governments they they try and and and fight against they try and and and fight against they try and and and fight against globalization by raising tariffs and globalization by raising tariffs and globalization by raising tariffs and stuff um but churches are are trying to stuff um but churches are are trying to stuff um but churches are are trying to combat secularization by um I don't know combat secularization by um I don't know combat secularization by um I don't know installing an LED wall or or injecting a installing an LED wall or or injecting a installing an LED wall or or injecting a little more Haze onto the stage or little more Haze onto the stage or little more Haze onto the stage or something um but it it just doesn't seem something um but it it just doesn't seem something um but it it just doesn't seem that like the things we're investing in that like the things we're investing in that like the things we're investing in to Stave off secularization in the to Stave off secularization in the to Stave off secularization in the church are proving to be to be worth our church are proving to be to be worth our church are proving to be to be worth our our money our time our investment um so our money our time our investment um so our money our time our investment um so if these things aren't working what do if these things aren't working what do if these things aren't working what do you think that churches can do amidst an you think that churches can do amidst an you think that churches can do amidst an increasingly secularized culture to not increasingly secularized culture to not increasingly secularized culture to not just survive but Thrive I think the one just survive but Thrive I think the one just survive but Thrive I think the one thing they need to orient themselves thing they need to orient themselves thing they need to orient themselves around is the concept of success doesn't around is the concept of success doesn't around is the concept of success doesn't mean growth you know that's one thing I mean growth you know that's one thing I mean growth you know that's one thing I had to reorient the way I thought about had to reorient the way I thought about had to reorient the way I thought about things because I'm a numbers guy right things because I'm a numbers guy right things because I'm a numbers guy right so I I want see to see trend lines of my so I I want see to see trend lines of my so I I want see to see trend lines of my own life going up whether it be substack own life going up whether it be substack own life going up whether it be substack subscriber counts or Publications or subscriber counts or Publications or subscriber counts or Publications or whatever it is I want to see those whatever it is I want to see those whatever it is I want to see those numbers go up and I think in the numbers go up and I think in the numbers go up and I think in the religious sphere what you got to religious sphere what you got to religious sphere what you got to understand is that there's a lot more understand is that there's a lot more understand is that there's a lot more headwinds in religion than there are headwinds in religion than there are headwinds in religion than there are Tailwinds right now I think it was Tailwinds right now I think it was Tailwinds right now I think it was easyer almost easy to grow a church in

easyer almost easy to grow a church in easyer almost easy to grow a church in the 1950s I mean most parts of America the 1950s I mean most parts of America the 1950s I mean most parts of America were growing rapidly education was were growing rapidly education was were growing rapidly education was increasing rapidly economic Prosperity increasing rapidly economic Prosperity increasing rapidly economic Prosperity was increasing rapidly uh and the people was increasing rapidly uh and the people was increasing rapidly uh and the people seem to be hungry for religion uh in the seem to be hungry for religion uh in the seem to be hungry for religion uh in the post-war period we're not in that period post-war period we're not in that period post-war period we're not in that period anymore you know I've said this and I'll anymore you know I've said this and I'll anymore you know I've said this and I'll say this many times if Billy Graham was say this many times if Billy Graham was say this many times if Billy Graham was born 40 years later would have not been born 40 years later would have not been born 40 years later would have not been Billy Graham because he walked into the Billy Graham because he walked into the Billy Graham because he walked into the largest you know potential flock uh you largest you know potential flock uh you largest you know potential flock uh you know possible in the 1950s if he was know possible in the 1950s if he was know possible in the 1950s if he was born in 1950 he'd be trying to do that born in 1950 he'd be trying to do that born in 1950 he'd be trying to do that in the 1980s which would not have been in the 1980s which would not have been in the 1980s which would not have been nearly as easy so I think what pastors nearly as easy so I think what pastors nearly as easy so I think what pastors need to realize is you are operating need to realize is you are operating need to realize is you are operating inside this this macro level forces inside this this macro level forces inside this this macro level forces right that are changing American society right that are changing American society right that are changing American society every day and to use the tactics that every day and to use the tactics that every day and to use the tactics that were used 30 years ago is just were used 30 years ago is just were used 30 years ago is just completely illogical based on what's completely illogical based on what's completely illogical based on what's Happening to us around us right now I Happening to us around us right now I Happening to us around us right now I think our job and this is what I keep think our job and this is what I keep think our job and this is what I keep telling people I what I realized in my telling people I what I realized in my telling people I what I realized in my last couple years and listen to be last couple years and listen to be last couple years and listen to be completely Frank with you I beat myself completely Frank with you I beat myself completely Frank with you I beat myself up for maybe 10 years as pastor of First up for maybe 10 years as pastor of First up for maybe 10 years as pastor of First Baptist Church because I was not doing Baptist Church because I was not doing Baptist Church because I was not doing my job in terms of growing the church my job in terms of growing the church my job in terms of growing the church turning the church around Revival and turning the church around Revival and turning the church around Revival and any of those things I got to the point any of those things I got to the point any of those things I got to the point where I realized that what God called me where I realized that what God called me where I realized that what God called me to was to be a hospice Pastor you know to was to be a hospice Pastor you know to was to be a hospice Pastor you know that every pastor's calling is not to that every pastor's calling is not to that every pastor's calling is not to you know start a church that grows to you know start a church that grows to you know start a church that grows to 5,000 people that's not success um God 5,000 people that's not success um God 5,000 people that's not success um God calls me to be faithful and that's it calls me to be faithful and that's it calls me to be faithful and that's it and faithful in the the situation that I and faithful in the the situation that I and faithful in the the situation that I was in for as long as I was called to be was in for as long as I was called to be was in for as long as I was called to be in that situation which I believed was in that situation which I believed was in that situation which I believed was to the end of that church so there I I to the end of that church so there I I to the end of that church so there I I want to say to those kind of pastors who want to say to those kind of pastors who want to say to those kind of pastors who are listening to this possibly who are are listening to this possibly who are are listening to this possibly who are in a congregation that's you know was in a congregation that's you know was in a congregation that's you know was 150 10 years ago now it's 110 I see you

150 10 years ago now it's 110 I see you 150 10 years ago now it's 110 I see you God sees you and God honors the ministry God sees you and God honors the ministry God sees you and God honors the ministry that you're involved with your job is to that you're involved with your job is to that you're involved with your job is to preach the gospel as best you can love preach the gospel as best you can love preach the gospel as best you can love the community as best you can serve the community as best you can serve the community as best you can serve folks build the kingdom as best you can folks build the kingdom as best you can folks build the kingdom as best you can and if your church doubles in size and if your church doubles in size and if your church doubles in size that's great if it goes it's half the that's great if it goes it's half the that's great if it goes it's half the size in 10 years that's fine too because size in 10 years that's fine too because size in 10 years that's fine too because your job is not to grow a church your your job is not to grow a church your your job is not to grow a church your job is to do your best in the situation job is to do your best in the situation job is to do your best in the situation that you're in it's hard to grow a that you're in it's hard to grow a that you're in it's hard to grow a church in let's say rural Pennsylvania church in let's say rural Pennsylvania church in let's say rural Pennsylvania it's hard to grow a church in rural it's hard to grow a church in rural it's hard to grow a church in rural Illinois it's a lot easier to grow a Illinois it's a lot easier to grow a Illinois it's a lot easier to grow a church in places like Arizona or church in places like Arizona or church in places like Arizona or Charlotte North Carolina or Southern Charlotte North Carolina or Southern Charlotte North Carolina or Southern California people are moving in left and California people are moving in left and California people are moving in left and right so let's just be honest with right so let's just be honest with right so let's just be honest with ourselves about not everything is our ourselves about not everything is our ourselves about not everything is our fault you know not saying we don't have fault you know not saying we don't have fault you know not saying we don't have control over what's happening but not control over what's happening but not control over what's happening but not everything is our fault when you start everything is our fault when you start everything is our fault when you start thinking that way you start realizing thinking that way you start realizing thinking that way you start realizing what can I change and what can't I what can I change and what can't I what can I change and what can't I change and start working on the things change and start working on the things change and start working on the things that you can I I wanted to ask a that you can I I wanted to ask a that you can I I wanted to ask a question that I've been wrestling with question that I've been wrestling with question that I've been wrestling with myself a bit bit Ryan you talked about myself a bit bit Ryan you talked about myself a bit bit Ryan you talked about there was that 10-year period where there was that 10-year period where there was that 10-year period where you're kind of beating yourself up being you're kind of beating yourself up being you're kind of beating yourself up being like hey this needs to be going in one like hey this needs to be going in one like hey this needs to be going in one way and it's not this must be an way and it's not this must be an way and it's not this must be an indictment upon my own efforts or uh indictment upon my own efforts or uh indictment upon my own efforts or uh capability you're say hey you got to capability you're say hey you got to capability you're say hey you got to look at the bigger Trends and look look at the bigger Trends and look look at the bigger Trends and look sometimes there are these waves heading sometimes there are these waves heading sometimes there are these waves heading in One Direction you can stand and fight in One Direction you can stand and fight in One Direction you can stand and fight the waves as much as you want but what's the waves as much as you want but what's the waves as much as you want but what's going to happen is eventually a big wave going to happen is eventually a big wave going to happen is eventually a big wave is going to knock you down it's always is going to knock you down it's always is going to knock you down it's always best to just go with the waves because best to just go with the waves because best to just go with the waves because you cannot control the waves my tension you cannot control the waves my tension you cannot control the waves my tension always there is and this is the question always there is and this is the question always there is and this is the question that I ask myself as I run my own that I ask myself as I run my own that I ask myself as I run my own organization it's like at what point am organization it's like at what point am organization it's like at what point am I acknowledging the greater Trends and I acknowledging the greater Trends and I acknowledging the greater Trends and at one point am I saying like I'm just at one point am I saying like I'm just at one point am I saying like I'm just like writing a narrative that removes like writing a narrative that removes like writing a narrative that removes some of my own culpability and makes me some of my own culpability and makes me some of my own culpability and makes me feel a bit better I know neither are

feel a bit better I know neither are feel a bit better I know neither are fully true how did you kind of navigate fully true how did you kind of navigate fully true how did you kind of navigate that very difficult thing how do you that very difficult thing how do you that very difficult thing how do you discern that yeah that's that's the discern that yeah that's that's the discern that yeah that's that's the that's the tough part right is to hold that's the tough part right is to hold that's the tough part right is to hold those two ideas in tension at one time those two ideas in tension at one time those two ideas in tension at one time and I I was talking to someone yesterday and I I was talking to someone yesterday and I I was talking to someone yesterday about where like how I think about about where like how I think about about where like how I think about myself and I think two things one is myself and I think two things one is myself and I think two things one is that 16-year-old me would think that 42y that 16-year-old me would think that 42y that 16-year-old me would think that 42y old me is killing it in terms of career old me is killing it in terms of career old me is killing it in terms of career and success and books and audience and and success and books and audience and and success and books and audience and all that stuff but the other part of me all that stuff but the other part of me all that stuff but the other part of me is but you're not doing enough yeah okay is but you're not doing enough yeah okay is but you're not doing enough yeah okay you have to live in the tension of you you have to live in the tension of you you have to live in the tension of you are doing what you're supposed to do you are doing what you're supposed to do you are doing what you're supposed to do you are you know you are called by God you are you know you are called by God you are you know you are called by God you can't beat yourself up too much and you can't beat yourself up too much and you can't beat yourself up too much and you can't pat yourself on the head too much can't pat yourself on the head too much can't pat yourself on the head too much you've got to kind of do those things in you've got to kind of do those things in you've got to kind of do those things in equal measure and I think in my own equal measure and I think in my own equal measure and I think in my own personal mental and spiritual journey personal mental and spiritual journey personal mental and spiritual journey where I'm the worst off is when I do too where I'm the worst off is when I do too where I'm the worst off is when I do too much of one and not enough of the other much of one and not enough of the other much of one and not enough of the other you know I've got to keep those two you know I've got to keep those two you know I've got to keep those two ideas in balance in my head that I'm ideas in balance in my head that I'm ideas in balance in my head that I'm doing great but I could be doing more doing great but I could be doing more doing great but I could be doing more that is the the tension that that has to that is the the tension that that has to that is the the tension that that has to exist in us not just as pastors by the exist in us not just as pastors by the exist in us not just as pastors by the way but as human beings to to move way but as human beings to to move way but as human beings to to move forward and I you know I believe that forward and I you know I believe that forward and I you know I believe that God gave me gifts and talents and then God gave me gifts and talents and then God gave me gifts and talents and then if I don't use those gifts and talents if I don't use those gifts and talents if I don't use those gifts and talents and I'm betraying the gift that God gave and I'm betraying the gift that God gave and I'm betraying the gift that God gave me and I think that to me is the worst me and I think that to me is the worst me and I think that to me is the worst sin I can commit in my life I I think sin I can commit in my life I I think sin I can commit in my life I I think most other people I don't know if they most other people I don't know if they most other people I don't know if they feel that way I honestly don't know but feel that way I honestly don't know but feel that way I honestly don't know but for me it's how do I live out that for me it's how do I live out that for me it's how do I live out that calling that I have I think as long as calling that I have I think as long as calling that I have I think as long as you're moving closer to that that's you're moving closer to that that's you're moving closer to that that's success now is every day a huge success success now is every day a huge success success now is every day a huge success in moving closer to using the gifts that in moving closer to using the gifts that in moving closer to using the gifts that God gave you no we all know that but

God gave you no we all know that but God gave you no we all know that but over a 30-day period 60-day period 90day over a 30-day period 60-day period 90day over a 30-day period 60-day period 90day period are you closer today than you period are you closer today than you period are you closer today than you were 90 days ago and if the answer is no were 90 days ago and if the answer is no were 90 days ago and if the answer is no then what are you doing maybe you're then what are you doing maybe you're then what are you doing maybe you're you're sitting on your laurels too much you're sitting on your laurels too much you're sitting on your laurels too much maybe you're patting yourself on the maybe you're patting yourself on the maybe you're patting yourself on the head too much and the other thing is if head too much and the other thing is if head too much and the other thing is if you beat yourself up tooo much it almost you beat yourself up tooo much it almost you beat yourself up tooo much it almost becomes this downward spiral right of becomes this downward spiral right of becomes this downward spiral right of like I'm not good enough you know like like I'm not good enough you know like like I'm not good enough you know like I'm not capable of this I'm not equipped I'm not capable of this I'm not equipped I'm not capable of this I'm not equipped for this so I think how you balance that for this so I think how you balance that for this so I think how you balance that really is the key of your life the thing really is the key of your life the thing really is the key of your life the thing I always try to be is really thoughtful I always try to be is really thoughtful I always try to be is really thoughtful and mindful about where I'm at mentally and mindful about where I'm at mentally and mindful about where I'm at mentally right where am I right now how am I right where am I right now how am I right where am I right now how am I feeling why am I feeling that way can I feeling why am I feeling that way can I feeling why am I feeling that way can I can I intentionally try to change my can I intentionally try to change my can I intentionally try to change my intention today to point myself in a intention today to point myself in a intention today to point myself in a better Direction I think that is the better Direction I think that is the better Direction I think that is the thing that I probably do better than I thing that I probably do better than I thing that I probably do better than I think lots of people do is think about think lots of people do is think about think lots of people do is think about how think it's called metacognition it's how think it's called metacognition it's how think it's called metacognition it's something I learned in undergrad and I something I learned in undergrad and I something I learned in undergrad and I think we all will be better off you know think we all will be better off you know think we all will be better off you know where am I in relationship to God where where am I in relationship to God where where am I in relationship to God where am I relationship to my wife and my am I relationship to my wife and my am I relationship to my wife and my children and my work that those asking children and my work that those asking children and my work that those asking yourself those questions on a regular yourself those questions on a regular yourself those questions on a regular basis will help you if you get off basis will help you if you get off basis will help you if you get off course it's easier to get back on course course it's easier to get back on course course it's easier to get back on course if you do it quickly as opposed to if you do it quickly as opposed to if you do it quickly as opposed to waiting a week or two weeks or five waiting a week or two weeks or five waiting a week or two weeks or five weeks or 10 weeks yeah yeah I I talk weeks or 10 weeks yeah yeah I I talk weeks or 10 weeks yeah yeah I I talk about that in terms of a phrase I call about that in terms of a phrase I call about that in terms of a phrase I call the rebound delay like how how long are the rebound delay like how how long are the rebound delay like how how long are you taking between like the the bad day you taking between like the the bad day you taking between like the the bad day that you had and then getting back into that you had and then getting back into that you had and then getting back into the right rhythms or the bad thinking the right rhythms or the bad thinking the right rhythms or the bad thinking that you let yourself uh get spiral down that you let yourself uh get spiral down that you let yourself uh get spiral down into how quick do you pull yourself out into how quick do you pull yourself out into how quick do you pull yourself out of that cuz we all have bad days and the of that cuz we all have bad days and the of that cuz we all have bad days and the challeng is making sure that they don't challeng is making sure that they don't challeng is making sure that they don't become a string of bad days I resonate become a string of bad days I resonate become a string of bad days I resonate with the principle there I'm curious are with the principle there I'm curious are with the principle there I'm curious are there any practical examples of that in there any practical examples of that in there any practical examples of that in the final you know last few years um it

the final you know last few years um it the final you know last few years um it could be as broad as like 15 years or in could be as broad as like 15 years or in could be as broad as like 15 years or in the past five um in your church moments the past five um in your church moments the past five um in your church moments where this didn't change the trajectory where this didn't change the trajectory where this didn't change the trajectory the ultimate destination that the church the ultimate destination that the church the ultimate destination that the church was headed towards but moments where you was headed towards but moments where you was headed towards but moments where you were really proud of what the church were really proud of what the church were really proud of what the church accomplished or what you accomplished accomplished or what you accomplished accomplished or what you accomplished despite those challenging conditions for despite those challenging conditions for despite those challenging conditions for everyone listening because many many everyone listening because many many everyone listening because many many churches are in similar situations that churches are in similar situations that churches are in similar situations that you've been in the past 15 years moments you've been in the past 15 years moments you've been in the past 15 years moments that you recall be like you know what that you recall be like you know what that you recall be like you know what despite the conditions and macro trends despite the conditions and macro trends despite the conditions and macro trends that I was a part of we made the right that I was a part of we made the right that I was a part of we made the right choices and we did the right things we choices and we did the right things we choices and we did the right things we were faithful in those times yeah so were faithful in those times yeah so were faithful in those times yeah so I'll I'll the one that I talk about a I'll I'll the one that I talk about a I'll I'll the one that I talk about a lot and I'm just so incredibly proud of lot and I'm just so incredibly proud of lot and I'm just so incredibly proud of is I you know to tip my hand a little I is I you know to tip my hand a little I is I you know to tip my hand a little I used to read a lot of Bell back in the used to read a lot of Bell back in the used to read a lot of Bell back in the day I still read a lot of Rob Bell I day I still read a lot of Rob Bell I day I still read a lot of Rob Bell I think he's very helpful in some ways he think he's very helpful in some ways he think he's very helpful in some ways he he made this statement that I thought he made this statement that I thought he made this statement that I thought really kind of transformed the way I really kind of transformed the way I really kind of transformed the way I thought about Ministry which is if your thought about Ministry which is if your thought about Ministry which is if your church closed down would anyone outside church closed down would anyone outside church closed down would anyone outside your membership really care and I your membership really care and I your membership really care and I thought well that's that's a motivating thought well that's that's a motivating thought well that's that's a motivating convicting question because at the time convicting question because at the time convicting question because at the time the answer was no because we just served the answer was no because we just served the answer was no because we just served ourselves you know that's where and so ourselves you know that's where and so ourselves you know that's where and so we started this program called brownbag we started this program called brownbag we started this program called brownbag Friday which we packed about 13 items of Friday which we packed about 13 items of Friday which we packed about 13 items of food for kids in the local school system food for kids in the local school system food for kids in the local school system our kids my kids go to public school our kids my kids go to public school our kids my kids go to public school here in in Mount Vernon and 85% of kidss here in in Mount Vernon and 85% of kidss here in in Mount Vernon and 85% of kidss are on free reduced lunch which means are on free reduced lunch which means are on free reduced lunch which means it's one of the poorest districts in the it's one of the poorest districts in the it's one of the poorest districts in the region if not the state um and the region if not the state um and the region if not the state um and the social workers were telling us that kids social workers were telling us that kids social workers were telling us that kids would come to school on Monday hungry would come to school on Monday hungry would come to school on Monday hungry because they literally did not eat the because they literally did not eat the because they literally did not eat the whole weekend and we thought well that's whole weekend and we thought well that's whole weekend and we thought well that's stupid you know like in and we have all stupid you know like in and we have all stupid you know like in and we have all these churches in our community and these churches in our community and these churches in our community and we're not feeding hungry kids like is we're not feeding hungry kids like is we're not feeding hungry kids like is there anything more basic in this world

there anything more basic in this world there anything more basic in this world than feeding hungry kids like it's than feeding hungry kids like it's than feeding hungry kids like it's really hard to getting mad about that so really hard to getting mad about that so really hard to getting mad about that so we started a program you know about 15 we started a program you know about 15 we started a program you know about 15 years ago and we started out do doing 30 years ago and we started out do doing 30 years ago and we started out do doing 30 bags a week thinking that's that's more bags a week thinking that's that's more bags a week thinking that's that's more than enough financially we don't know if than enough financially we don't know if than enough financially we don't know if we can handle this and just logistically we can handle this and just logistically we can handle this and just logistically and we were doing at the end 275 bags a and we were doing at the end 275 bags a and we were doing at the end 275 bags a week um feeding kids in our community week um feeding kids in our community week um feeding kids in our community and all we did was we put 13 items in a and all we did was we put 13 items in a and all we did was we put 13 items in a brown paper sack we put a little a brown paper sack we put a little a brown paper sack we put a little a little paper there's a little piece of little paper there's a little piece of little paper there's a little piece of paper no at one point one guy older guy paper no at one point one guy older guy paper no at one point one guy older guy in my CH like let's put a tra in I'm in my CH like let's put a tra in I'm in my CH like let's put a tra in I'm like absolutely not we're not doing that like absolutely not we're not doing that like absolutely not we're not doing that we're not evangelizing with this all it we're not evangelizing with this all it we're not evangelizing with this all it said was was we love you here's our name said was was we love you here's our name said was was we love you here's our name here's our number if you need anything here's our number if you need anything here's our number if you need anything give us a call and that's all we did and give us a call and that's all we did and give us a call and that's all we did and we loved our community we spent over we loved our community we spent over we loved our community we spent over $100,000 on that program and we never $100,000 on that program and we never $100,000 on that program and we never ever ran out of money and one of our ever ran out of money and one of our ever ran out of money and one of our biggest fears at the end was well who's biggest fears at the end was well who's biggest fears at the end was well who's going to take over Brown Bags after we going to take over Brown Bags after we going to take over Brown Bags after we closed down and luckily the ministerial closed down and luckily the ministerial closed down and luckily the ministerial Alliance of our community stepped up and Alliance of our community stepped up and Alliance of our community stepped up and said we'd be willing to do it and then said we'd be willing to do it and then said we'd be willing to do it and then we took the the last money that we had we took the the last money that we had we took the the last money that we had before we ran out of cash about $15,000 before we ran out of cash about $15,000 before we ran out of cash about $15,000 and wrote them a check for them to and wrote them a check for them to and wrote them a check for them to continue to do the Brown Bag program so continue to do the Brown Bag program so continue to do the Brown Bag program so whatever we did had a tangible impact on whatever we did had a tangible impact on whatever we did had a tangible impact on the community and I think that's that's the community and I think that's that's the community and I think that's that's the thing is if you're going down go the thing is if you're going down go the thing is if you're going down go down swinging you know what I mean go down swinging you know what I mean go down swinging you know what I mean go down helping people serving people down helping people serving people down helping people serving people loving people and I can tell you this loving people and I can tell you this loving people and I can tell you this when I doubted my calling when I doubted when I doubted my calling when I doubted when I doubted my calling when I doubted my church when I doubted myself when I my church when I doubted myself when I my church when I doubted myself when I doubted my life when I did not doubt at doubted my life when I did not doubt at doubted my life when I did not doubt at all was when I was packing those bags I all was when I was packing those bags I all was when I was packing those bags I knew that that was real and to see 90y knew that that was real and to see 90y knew that that was real and to see 90y old women who could barely stand up pack old women who could barely stand up pack old women who could barely stand up pack 150 bags on a on a Sunday morning was an 150 bags on a on a Sunday morning was an 150 bags on a on a Sunday morning was an unbelievable blessing that I will take

unbelievable blessing that I will take unbelievable blessing that I will take with me and to watch my kids by the way with me and to watch my kids by the way with me and to watch my kids by the way who grew up in that church and started who grew up in that church and started who grew up in that church and started packing those bags when they were three packing those bags when they were three packing those bags when they were three and four years old and contined to do it and four years old and contined to do it and four years old and contined to do it when they were 10 and 12 years old I when they were 10 and 12 years old I when they were 10 and 12 years old I taught them what it meant to be a good taught them what it meant to be a good taught them what it meant to be a good person and a person of faith and a person and a person of faith and a person and a person of faith and a follower of Jesus Christ by showing them follower of Jesus Christ by showing them follower of Jesus Christ by showing them and I think that was the thing that I'll and I think that was the thing that I'll and I think that was the thing that I'll take with me for the rest of my life and take with me for the rest of my life and take with me for the rest of my life and hopefully my kids will take with them hopefully my kids will take with them hopefully my kids will take with them for the rest of their life so just for the rest of their life so just for the rest of their life so just because you're small doesn't mean you because you're small doesn't mean you because you're small doesn't mean you can't Chang the world and we absolutely can't Chang the world and we absolutely can't Chang the world and we absolutely did in our little community and when we did in our little community and when we did in our little community and when we closed we were missed because we were closed we were missed because we were closed we were missed because we were not doing brown bags anymore and I think not doing brown bags anymore and I think not doing brown bags anymore and I think that's our Legacy that's what'll live on that's our Legacy that's what'll live on that's our Legacy that's what'll live on for even after most of us are dead for even after most of us are dead for even after most of us are dead people will still be talking about the people will still be talking about the people will still be talking about the Brown Bag program I didn't anticipate Brown Bag program I didn't anticipate Brown Bag program I didn't anticipate this conversation being as an emotional this conversation being as an emotional this conversation being as an emotional Journey for me as it has been I feel Journey for me as it has been I feel Journey for me as it has been I feel like every every answer I'm just like like every every answer I'm just like like every every answer I'm just like like feel that in my chest um you talked like feel that in my chest um you talked like feel that in my chest um you talked about handing off this Amazing Project about handing off this Amazing Project about handing off this Amazing Project there are surely so many Logistics when there are surely so many Logistics when there are surely so many Logistics when it comes to closing a church it's not it comes to closing a church it's not it comes to closing a church it's not just deciding like hey we cannot sustain just deciding like hey we cannot sustain just deciding like hey we cannot sustain this any longer it's we have a building this any longer it's we have a building this any longer it's we have a building we have uh surely many other logistical we have uh surely many other logistical we have uh surely many other logistical things to go through what's the process things to go through what's the process things to go through what's the process of selling a building presumably and of selling a building presumably and of selling a building presumably and like closing actually like like closing actually like like closing actually like there's no handbook for this Brady I'll there's no handbook for this Brady I'll there's no handbook for this Brady I'll let you know right now um none of the let you know right now um none of the let you know right now um none of the pastors are writing books on it yeah pastors are writing books on it yeah pastors are writing books on it yeah maybe maybe I should write a book about maybe maybe I should write a book about maybe maybe I should write a book about next book there you go oh my gosh next book there you go oh my gosh next book there you go oh my gosh actually would probably sell a lot of actually would probably sell a lot of actually would probably sell a lot of copies cuz that's you know what I mean copies cuz that's you know what I mean copies cuz that's you know what I mean like a direct title and a handbook and like a direct title and a handbook and like a direct title and a handbook and everything else the problem is though everything else the problem is though everything else the problem is though there's no there really no one siiz there's no there really no one siiz there's no there really no one siiz fits-all I'll just describe our process fits-all I'll just describe our process fits-all I'll just describe our process to you so you can you know take that for

to you so you can you know take that for to you so you can you know take that for what it's worth so we were we were in a what it's worth so we were we were in a what it's worth so we were we were in a building that was built in the 1960s building that was built in the 1960s building that was built in the 1960s about 15,000 ft um on about 8 Acres of about 15,000 ft um on about 8 Acres of about 15,000 ft um on about 8 Acres of of Prime Property on a highway really of Prime Property on a highway really of Prime Property on a highway really well located um by the end you know even well located um by the end you know even well located um by the end you know even when I got there we were using maybe 20% when I got there we were using maybe 20% when I got there we were using maybe 20% of the building and the and the utility of the building and the and the utility of the building and the and the utility cost were $25,000 a year and the cost were $25,000 a year and the cost were $25,000 a year and the insurance was insane to replace the roof insurance was insane to replace the roof insurance was insane to replace the roof with with with $70,000 so it was really an albatross on $70,000 so it was really an albatross on $70,000 so it was really an albatross on our next and it used to be we had older our next and it used to be we had older our next and it used to be we had older guys in the church who were retired but guys in the church who were retired but guys in the church who were retired but still work on stuff like fixed plumbing still work on stuff like fixed plumbing still work on stuff like fixed plumbing and drywall and you know Little Things and drywall and you know Little Things and drywall and you know Little Things by the end we had no one so it was by the end we had no one so it was by the end we had no one so it was basically me and one other guy were our basically me and one other guy were our basically me and one other guy were our fix it guys and I'm not a handyman by fix it guys and I'm not a handyman by fix it guys and I'm not a handyman by training like I just mess around and training like I just mess around and training like I just mess around and make m Stakes so we put it up okay so make m Stakes so we put it up okay so make m Stakes so we put it up okay so first off we we got try to get an first off we we got try to get an first off we we got try to get an appraisal good luck getting an appraisal appraisal good luck getting an appraisal appraisal good luck getting an appraisal on a church because there are no comps on a church because there are no comps on a church because there are no comps to compare your church too so appraisal to compare your church too so appraisal to compare your church too so appraisal came back and it said okay $400,000 and came back and it said okay $400,000 and came back and it said okay $400,000 and I asked the guy are you sure about this I asked the guy are you sure about this I asked the guy are you sure about this he goes no I'm not sure about this at he goes no I'm not sure about this at he goes no I'm not sure about this at all but you know how do you how do you all but you know how do you how do you all but you know how do you how do you comp a building like this and I was like comp a building like this and I was like comp a building like this and I was like yeah you're right so $400,000 we put it yeah you're right so $400,000 we put it yeah you're right so $400,000 we put it on the market for on the market for on the market for $300,000 we put on Facebook like $300,000 we put on Facebook like $300,000 we put on Facebook like literally gorilla Style on Facebook cuz literally gorilla Style on Facebook cuz literally gorilla Style on Facebook cuz we don't want to pay a commercial we don't want to pay a commercial we don't want to pay a commercial realtor and they're going to pay take realtor and they're going to pay take realtor and they're going to pay take 10% off the top or whatever so we had 10% off the top or whatever so we had 10% off the top or whatever so we had about 15 groups walk through and it was about 15 groups walk through and it was about 15 groups walk through and it was like man I could write a book about like man I could write a book about like man I could write a book about those groups that walk through it was those groups that walk through it was those groups that walk through it was like church planners who wanted to start like church planners who wanted to start like church planners who wanted to start them like don't start in this building them like don't start in this building them like don't start in this building dude you're going to die like it'll kill dude you're going to die like it'll kill dude you're going to die like it'll kill you um but you know people are you um but you know people are you um but you know people are optimistic and we ended up getting one optimistic and we ended up getting one optimistic and we ended up getting one offer that was offer that was offer that was $150,000 and the guy told me God told me $150,000 and the guy told me God told me $150,000 and the guy told me God told me this is all we can offer because this is this is all we can offer because this is this is all we can offer because this is all the cash we have on hand I said well

all the cash we have on hand I said well all the cash we have on hand I said well God told me we can't take it um because God told me we can't take it um because God told me we can't take it um because we would not have been able to move to a we would not have been able to move to a we would not have been able to move to a new place for you know $150,000 is new place for you know $150,000 is new place for you know $150,000 is nothing at the end of the day when it nothing at the end of the day when it nothing at the end of the day when it comes to you know buildout and lease and comes to you know buildout and lease and comes to you know buildout and lease and all that stuff so we politely declined all that stuff so we politely declined all that stuff so we politely declined and then we had another church come in and then we had another church come in and then we had another church come in and offer us three actually our asking and offer us three actually our asking and offer us three actually our asking price 300,000 but they had to sell their price 300,000 but they had to sell their price 300,000 but they had to sell their Church in order to buy our church so it Church in order to buy our church so it Church in order to buy our church so it was a contingent offer and it was a year was a contingent offer and it was a year was a contingent offer and it was a year they tried to sell their church and they they tried to sell their church and they they tried to sell their church and they didn't sell their church so that didn't didn't sell their church so that didn't didn't sell their church so that didn't go through either and so what ended up go through either and so what ended up go through either and so what ended up happening was there is a a classical happening was there is a a classical happening was there is a a classical Christian School that opened in Mount Christian School that opened in Mount Christian School that opened in Mount Vernon Second Baptist Church was Vernon Second Baptist Church was Vernon Second Baptist Church was actually a church plant of First Baptist actually a church plant of First Baptist actually a church plant of First Baptist Church about 100 years ago um they Church about 100 years ago um they Church about 100 years ago um they needed a building cuz they had outgrown needed a building cuz they had outgrown needed a building cuz they had outgrown their school had outgrown their church their school had outgrown their church their school had outgrown their church building they come to us and they say we building they come to us and they say we building they come to us and they say we would like to come up with an would like to come up with an would like to come up with an arrangement and I'm not going to get all arrangement and I'm not going to get all arrangement and I'm not going to get all the details really complicated but the details really complicated but the details really complicated but here's the upshot of the whole thing here's the upshot of the whole thing here's the upshot of the whole thing they took over the building we got to they took over the building we got to they took over the building we got to stay there we paid $100 a month in rent stay there we paid $100 a month in rent stay there we paid $100 a month in rent for copying trash utilities and we were for copying trash utilities and we were for copying trash utilities and we were there on uh Saturday Sunday Monday cuz I there on uh Saturday Sunday Monday cuz I there on uh Saturday Sunday Monday cuz I didn't have to school on Monday and didn't have to school on Monday and didn't have to school on Monday and their their school met Tuesday through their their school met Tuesday through their their school met Tuesday through Friday during the school year so Friday during the school year so Friday during the school year so basically we were tenants of them and so basically we were tenants of them and so basically we were tenants of them and so we were in that situation for about five we were in that situation for about five we were in that situation for about five or six years at the end and we were kind or six years at the end and we were kind or six years at the end and we were kind of two ships passing in the night to be of two ships passing in the night to be of two ships passing in the night to be honest with you like when they were honest with you like when they were honest with you like when they were there they were there and when we were there they were there and when we were there they were there and when we were there we were there we hardly ever saw there we were there we hardly ever saw there we were there we hardly ever saw each other um maybe I bet I talk to each other um maybe I bet I talk to each other um maybe I bet I talk to people there three or four times a year people there three or four times a year people there three or four times a year at the end at the most and we shared a at the end at the most and we shared a at the end at the most and we shared a building and so the way the contracts building and so the way the contracts building and so the way the contracts are written was if we dissolve the are written was if we dissolve the are written was if we dissolve the building becomes completely theirs and building becomes completely theirs and building becomes completely theirs and if they dissolve the building became if they dissolve the building became if they dissolve the building became completely ours and we were worried that

completely ours and we were worried that completely ours and we were worried that they might close cuz then the building they might close cuz then the building they might close cuz then the building would become our property again and we would become our property again and we would become our property again and we would be sunk in 6 months financially so would be sunk in 6 months financially so would be sunk in 6 months financially so we got out while the getting was good I we got out while the getting was good I we got out while the getting was good I suppose and they took over that whole suppose and they took over that whole suppose and they took over that whole and so the other part of that too is and so the other part of that too is and so the other part of that too is once we gave them the building we had to once we gave them the building we had to once we gave them the building we had to start downsizing all our stuff in the start downsizing all our stuff in the start downsizing all our stuff in the building so we spent a couple years just building so we spent a couple years just building so we spent a couple years just selling off different items chairs and selling off different items chairs and selling off different items chairs and robes and you name it and at the end all robes and you name it and at the end all robes and you name it and at the end all we really had was one checking account we really had was one checking account we really had was one checking account we had like a couple pulpits and we had like a couple pulpits and we had like a couple pulpits and communion tables and pews and at the end communion tables and pews and at the end communion tables and pews and at the end it took about 2 weeks for us to to it took about 2 weeks for us to to it took about 2 weeks for us to to liquidate all our assets and be liquidate all our assets and be liquidate all our assets and be dissolved completely because we did dissolved completely because we did dissolved completely because we did slowly over like a 8 or 10 year period slowly over like a 8 or 10 year period slowly over like a 8 or 10 year period of time as opposed to just waiting to of time as opposed to just waiting to of time as opposed to just waiting to the end and saying okay bye handing the the end and saying okay bye handing the the end and saying okay bye handing the keys to our denomination and walking keys to our denomination and walking keys to our denomination and walking away wow um I know as you're sharing away wow um I know as you're sharing away wow um I know as you're sharing that story I I know personally and that story I I know personally and that story I I know personally and locally like a full handful of churches locally like a full handful of churches locally like a full handful of churches who are in similar um situations where who are in similar um situations where who are in similar um situations where they're they're leasing a you know like they're they're leasing a you know like they're they're leasing a you know like a a big old United Church that that a a big old United Church that that a a big old United Church that that congregation dissolved and so they're congregation dissolved and so they're congregation dissolved and so they're they're sharing that space and if I know they're sharing that space and if I know they're sharing that space and if I know that if I know that many churches that if I know that many churches that if I know that many churches personally and locally I know that a lot personally and locally I know that a lot personally and locally I know that a lot of churches listening to this show and of churches listening to this show and of churches listening to this show and listening to this conversation are in a listening to this conversation are in a listening to this conversation are in a similar situation and you know you've similar situation and you know you've similar situation and you know you've been so gracious to share how your story been so gracious to share how your story been so gracious to share how your story at least at least the story of that at least at least the story of that at least at least the story of that congregation ended and um but you you're congregation ended and um but you you're congregation ended and um but you you're also not shy to say that there is just also not shy to say that there is just also not shy to say that there is just because your church has had their last because your church has had their last because your church has had their last Sunday service that there is not hope

Sunday service that there is not hope Sunday service that there is not hope for churches who are in similar for churches who are in similar for churches who are in similar situation so I'm sure that speaks to a situation so I'm sure that speaks to a situation so I'm sure that speaks to a lot of folks listening to this this lot of folks listening to this this lot of folks listening to this this today Ryan um I do have to thank you for today Ryan um I do have to thank you for today Ryan um I do have to thank you for your vulnerability and and how gracious your vulnerability and and how gracious your vulnerability and and how gracious you've been to share this story not just you've been to share this story not just you've been to share this story not just with us today but online you've written with us today but online you've written with us today but online you've written multiple essays you've been interviewed multiple essays you've been interviewed multiple essays you've been interviewed by some rather large Publications it by some rather large Publications it by some rather large Publications it sounds like you're going to write a book sounds like you're going to write a book sounds like you're going to write a book about this someday so um I do have to about this someday so um I do have to about this someday so um I do have to thank you that for that like as a as a thank you that for that like as a as a thank you that for that like as a as a person and as a pastor just having the person and as a pastor just having the person and as a pastor just having the the grace and the humility to share this the grace and the humility to share this the grace and the humility to share this like it's it's a really tender story but like it's it's a really tender story but like it's it's a really tender story but to to share it and and share it honestly to to share it and and share it honestly to to share it and and share it honestly um right because there's no value coming um right because there's no value coming um right because there's no value coming to Ryan for this yeah he's only bringing to Ryan for this yeah he's only bringing to Ryan for this yeah he's only bringing value to others and the vast majority of value to others and the vast majority of value to others and the vast majority of folks understandably would do this folks understandably would do this folks understandably would do this quietly and you would move on and you quietly and you would move on and you quietly and you would move on and you would refocus on this very successful would refocus on this very successful would refocus on this very successful substack like there's no reason that substack like there's no reason that substack like there's no reason that Ryan had to do this yeah you know Ryan had to do this yeah you know Ryan had to do this yeah you know there's this lyric uh from the small there's this lyric uh from the small there's this lyric uh from the small little band in Asheville North Carolina little band in Asheville North Carolina little band in Asheville North Carolina they say um you pray for Resurrection they say um you pray for Resurrection they say um you pray for Resurrection but you're too scared to die um and so but you're too scared to die um and so but you're too scared to die um and so your story although it is a story about your story although it is a story about your story although it is a story about a church closing its doors um as a now a church closing its doors um as a now a church closing its doors um as a now I'm speaking personally as a pastor of a I'm speaking personally as a pastor of a I'm speaking personally as a pastor of a smaller congregation here in rural smaller congregation here in rural smaller congregation here in rural Niagara like I I it gives me Niagara like I I it gives me Niagara like I I it gives me Resurrection Hope just to hear um the Resurrection Hope just to hear um the Resurrection Hope just to hear um the courage that you and your congregation courage that you and your congregation courage that you and your congregation had to like let this thing die it's had to like let this thing die it's had to like let this thing die it's really encouraging to me but listen really encouraging to me but listen really encouraging to me but listen you're a researcher and you've said it you're a researcher and you've said it you're a researcher and you've said it uh on the show today you've said it uh on the show today you've said it uh on the show today you've said it before you look for safety security before you look for safety security before you look for safety security shity in data but um you've admitted shity in data but um you've admitted shity in data but um you've admitted that you're entirely unsure about the that you're entirely unsure about the that you're entirely unsure about the future of faith in America and frankly

future of faith in America and frankly future of faith in America and frankly Ryan you've said this online the future Ryan you've said this online the future Ryan you've said this online the future of of your own faith you've said that of of your own faith you've said that of of your own faith you've said that you're just you're just unsure so not you're just you're just unsure so not you're just you're just unsure so not even the data can tell you what the even the data can tell you what the even the data can tell you what the future of either of those things are the future of either of those things are the future of either of those things are the future of faith in America or the future future of faith in America or the future future of faith in America or the future of the faith of Ryan Burge so I got to of the faith of Ryan Burge so I got to of the faith of Ryan Burge so I got to ask you um where are you feeling or ask you um where are you feeling or ask you um where are you feeling or finding hope um either personally or finding hope um either personally or finding hope um either personally or professionally right now well first professionally right now well first professionally right now well first thanks guys I mean that that thanks guys I mean that that thanks guys I mean that that encouragement was what I needed because encouragement was what I needed because encouragement was what I needed because when that when I when that when I when that when I so I don't know how this happened but so I don't know how this happened but so I don't know how this happened but the Associated Press wrote a story about the Associated Press wrote a story about the Associated Press wrote a story about my church closing Religion News service my church closing Religion News service my church closing Religion News service Bob smatana from from there showed up at Bob smatana from from there showed up at Bob smatana from from there showed up at my church and reported on my church my church and reported on my church my church and reported on my church closing and that wrote like a 4,000-word closing and that wrote like a 4,000-word closing and that wrote like a 4,000-word essay for Deseret about what it felt essay for Deseret about what it felt essay for Deseret about what it felt like for my church to close and like like for my church to close and like like for my church to close and like those three things came out like one those three things came out like one those three things came out like one week apart from each other and I was week apart from each other and I was week apart from each other and I was just getting inundated with emails and just getting inundated with emails and just getting inundated with emails and DMS and Linkedin messages and phone DMS and Linkedin messages and phone DMS and Linkedin messages and phone calls at the church and and to be honest calls at the church and and to be honest calls at the church and and to be honest with you it actually probably made me with you it actually probably made me with you it actually probably made me feel worse than better because the feel worse than better because the feel worse than better because the sentiment you guys shared was not the sentiment you guys shared was not the sentiment you guys shared was not the sentiment I was getting for a lot of sentiment I was getting for a lot of sentiment I was getting for a lot of those messages a lot of it was I can those messages a lot of it was I can those messages a lot of it was I can help you resurrect your church I I can help you resurrect your church I I can help you resurrect your church I I can help you replant your church it's like help you replant your church it's like help you replant your church it's like the Savior complex that a lot of even the Savior complex that a lot of even the Savior complex that a lot of even evangelicals have is just disgusting to evangelicals have is just disgusting to evangelicals have is just disgusting to be honest with you um at some point you be honest with you um at some point you be honest with you um at some point you got to let things die you can't save got to let things die you can't save got to let things die you can't save everything and I think that's it's like everything and I think that's it's like everything and I think that's it's like you know what it felt like it's like my you know what it felt like it's like my you know what it felt like it's like my wife had stage four cancer and was like wife had stage four cancer and was like wife had stage four cancer and was like we gone through all the conventional we gone through all the conventional we gone through all the conventional treatments and then some faith healer or treatments and then some faith healer or treatments and then some faith healer or like herbalist comes along goes I can like herbalist comes along goes I can like herbalist comes along goes I can save your wife just let me try like no save your wife just let me try like no save your wife just let me try like no no no no no we we are not there you know no no no no we we are not there you know no no no no we we are not there you know things sometimes things die and that's things sometimes things die and that's things sometimes things die and that's what has to happen and then they were

what has to happen and then they were what has to happen and then they were blaming me because I wasn't fulltime I blaming me because I wasn't fulltime I blaming me because I wasn't fulltime I didn't give it my all and I was we were didn't give it my all and I was we were didn't give it my all and I was we were part of a Mainline tradition we were a part of a Mainline tradition we were a part of a Mainline tradition we were a liberal Church which is hilarious cuz we liberal Church which is hilarious cuz we liberal Church which is hilarious cuz we are the least thing from a liberal are the least thing from a liberal are the least thing from a liberal church as far as I can tell at least church as far as I can tell at least church as far as I can tell at least from the pulpit I can tell you we from the pulpit I can tell you we from the pulpit I can tell you we weren't a liberal church and from the weren't a liberal church and from the weren't a liberal church and from the pews we weren't either so it's like pews we weren't either so it's like pews we weren't either so it's like everyone was trying to make sense of everyone was trying to make sense of everyone was trying to make sense of this for them so it wouldn't happen to this for them so it wouldn't happen to this for them so it wouldn't happen to them th those people personally and that them th those people personally and that them th those people personally and that really really sucked to be honest with really really sucked to be honest with really really sucked to be honest with you like at one point I was like I wish you like at one point I was like I wish you like at one point I was like I wish my email address was not public I almost my email address was not public I almost my email address was not public I almost emailed my the University president and emailed my the University president and emailed my the University president and said could you turn my email off for a said could you turn my email off for a said could you turn my email off for a while while while because I can't deal with this I mean I because I can't deal with this I mean I because I can't deal with this I mean I I got like a hundred messages and then I got like a hundred messages and then I got like a hundred messages and then you go on Reddit and read the comments you go on Reddit and read the comments you go on Reddit and read the comments and you're like you people don't know and you're like you people don't know and you're like you people don't know never search your name on Reddit no never search your name on Reddit no never search your name on Reddit no never ever do that it was a huge like never ever do that it was a huge like never ever do that it was a huge like but you know how you go in a downward but you know how you go in a downward but you know how you go in a downward spiral late at night sometimes when spiral late at night sometimes when spiral late at night sometimes when you're just you know wanting to dump on you're just you know wanting to dump on you're just you know wanting to dump on yourself so I really appreciate that yourself so I really appreciate that yourself so I really appreciate that guys and and and to me it was I wanted guys and and and to me it was I wanted guys and and and to me it was I wanted people to know that this is more than people to know that this is more than people to know that this is more than just numbers on a spreadsheet this is just numbers on a spreadsheet this is just numbers on a spreadsheet this is real people you know people are really real people you know people are really real people you know people are really struggling in this moment I think the struggling in this moment I think the struggling in this moment I think the way that I always understand history is way that I always understand history is way that I always understand history is like I can understand the macro level like I can understand the macro level like I can understand the macro level movements but you need to understand at movements but you need to understand at movements but you need to understand at the individual level too like how were the individual level too like how were the individual level too like how were people's lives in America shaped by the people's lives in America shaped by the people's lives in America shaped by the Civil War you know like I read listen to Civil War you know like I read listen to Civil War you know like I read listen to this great podcast called the deserter this great podcast called the deserter this great podcast called the deserter from The New York Times is about people from The New York Times is about people from The New York Times is about people Russian men who are being conscripted to Russian men who are being conscripted to Russian men who are being conscripted to fight in Ukraine that don't want to fight in Ukraine that don't want to fight in Ukraine that don't want to fight and they're hitting their hands fight and they're hitting their hands fight and they're hitting their hands with hammers to break their hands so with hammers to break their hands so with hammers to break their hands so they don't have to go like let's make they don't have to go like let's make they don't have to go like let's make this real and the kind of religion is this real and the kind of religion is this real and the kind of religion is it's a graph on my Twitter but it's also it's a graph on my Twitter but it's also it's a graph on my Twitter but it's also my real life MH and there are 10 people

my real life MH and there are 10 people my real life MH and there are 10 people now have to find a new home to Worship now have to find a new home to Worship now have to find a new home to Worship in because my church closed let's not in because my church closed let's not in because my church closed let's not forget that and I think we it's so much forget that and I think we it's so much forget that and I think we it's so much it's so easy to look at the big trends it's so easy to look at the big trends it's so easy to look at the big trends and forget about the individual stories and forget about the individual stories and forget about the individual stories inside that now where does My Hope come inside that now where does My Hope come inside that now where does My Hope come from My Hope comes from the fact that um from My Hope comes from the fact that um from My Hope comes from the fact that um I went to the United Methodist Church on I went to the United Methodist Church on I went to the United Methodist Church on Sunday and half my congregation was Sunday and half my congregation was Sunday and half my congregation was there sitting next to me in the Pew oh there sitting next to me in the Pew oh there sitting next to me in the Pew oh that's awesome and we were just so happy that's awesome and we were just so happy that's awesome and we were just so happy to see each other because we I've I've to see each other because we I've I've to see each other because we I've I've been bouncing around I went to the been bouncing around I went to the been bouncing around I went to the Catholic church I've gone to the United Catholic church I've gone to the United Catholic church I've gone to the United Methodist Church I've gone to a bunch of Methodist Church I've gone to a bunch of Methodist Church I've gone to a bunch of different churches and to see those different churches and to see those different churches and to see those people still gather together and me not people still gather together and me not people still gather together and me not having to preach just really gave me a having to preach just really gave me a having to preach just really gave me a lot of Hope cuz I'm honestly you know lot of Hope cuz I'm honestly you know lot of Hope cuz I'm honestly you know not stoked about doing that cuz I did it not stoked about doing that cuz I did it not stoked about doing that cuz I did it for 17 and a half years and I took I for 17 and a half years and I took I for 17 and a half years and I took I might take I bet I average less than two might take I bet I average less than two might take I bet I average less than two Sundays a year off for 17 and a half Sundays a year off for 17 and a half Sundays a year off for 17 and a half years so to to not have that burden on years so to to not have that burden on years so to to not have that burden on my life has actually in some ways freed my life has actually in some ways freed my life has actually in some ways freed me up to do I think what God's calling me up to do I think what God's calling me up to do I think what God's calling me to in this season of my life and I'm me to in this season of my life and I'm me to in this season of my life and I'm preaching but just doing it in a preaching but just doing it in a preaching but just doing it in a different way you know not on on a from different way you know not on on a from different way you know not on on a from a Pulpit on a Sunday morning but when a Pulpit on a Sunday morning but when a Pulpit on a Sunday morning but when I'm traveling around the country talking I'm traveling around the country talking I'm traveling around the country talking about religious Decline and what it about religious Decline and what it about religious Decline and what it means forer America and how it's going means forer America and how it's going means forer America and how it's going to hurt us I think individually to hurt us I think individually to hurt us I think individually collectively and as a society and I collectively and as a society and I collectively and as a society and I think that to me is that seeing that God think that to me is that seeing that God think that to me is that seeing that God has laid out a different way that I can has laid out a different way that I can has laid out a different way that I can minister to people not in traditional minister to people not in traditional minister to people not in traditional pastoral way has been the really amazing pastoral way has been the really amazing pastoral way has been the really amazing thing and I was asked like a week ago do thing and I was asked like a week ago do thing and I was asked like a week ago do you miss the pulpit I go I mean I got a you miss the pulpit I go I mean I got a you miss the pulpit I go I mean I got a Pulpit every every Monday and every Pulpit every every Monday and every Pulpit every every Monday and every Thursday dude you know I reach so many Thursday dude you know I reach so many Thursday dude you know I reach so many people with the substack and just show people with the substack and just show people with the substack and just show them what the data says and try to help them what the data says and try to help them what the data says and try to help them understand the world that's them understand the world that's them understand the world that's Ministry that's Ministry in a in a Ministry that's Ministry in a in a Ministry that's Ministry in a in a nonsectarian non-religious way I'm nonsectarian non-religious way I'm nonsectarian non-religious way I'm helping people and I think to me that's

helping people and I think to me that's helping people and I think to me that's given me hope and peace and joy and given me hope and peace and joy and given me hope and peace and joy and comfort and also knowing that those comfort and also knowing that those comfort and also knowing that those people who were part of my church have people who were part of my church have people who were part of my church have all I think almost all them have found a all I think almost all them have found a all I think almost all them have found a new home to go to man that's a win new home to go to man that's a win new home to go to man that's a win that's a win for me it's a win for them that's a win for me it's a win for them that's a win for me it's a win for them it's a win for it's a win for it's a win for us uh hope for the Future Hope for the us uh hope for the Future Hope for the us uh hope for the Future Hope for the next season beautiful closing note to next season beautiful closing note to next season beautiful closing note to our conversation Ryan we'll check in our conversation Ryan we'll check in our conversation Ryan we'll check in with you uh shortly as we always do for with you uh shortly as we always do for with you uh shortly as we always do for everyone listening thank you for your everyone listening thank you for your everyone listening thank you for your time attention and Trust we'll talk to time attention and Trust we'll talk to time attention and Trust we'll talk to you next Wednesday