Church Merch: The Master Guide

When a church needs a shirt, many will When a church needs a shirt, many will just throw a logo on it and call it a just throw a logo on it and call it a just throw a logo on it and call it a day. And hey, that's [music] fine. But day. And hey, that's [music] fine. But day. And hey, that's [music] fine. But with a few small tweaks, you can make it with a few small tweaks, you can make it with a few small tweaks, you can make it so much more than that. Today, we're so much more than that. Today, we're so much more than that. Today, we're here to share some practical workflows here to share some practical workflows here to share some practical workflows to help you create merch for your own to help you create merch for your own to help you create merch for your own church that your congregation [music] church that your congregation [music] church that your congregation [music] will actually want to keep on after will actually want to keep on after will actually want to keep on after service ends. Let's dive in. service ends. Let's dive in. service ends. Let's dive in. Well, hey there and welcome to the Well, hey there and welcome to the Well, hey there and welcome to the ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help ProChurch Tool Show. We're here to help you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest you and your church navigate the biggest communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm communication shift in 500 years. I'm Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as Brady Sheer, your host. I'm joined as always by my co-host. It's Alexander always by my co-host. It's Alexander always by my co-host. It's Alexander Mills. Mills. Mills. >> Hello. Hello. And today we're also >> Hello. Hello. And today we're also >> Hello. Hello. And today we're also joined by Carl Nilson. Carl, welcome to joined by Carl Nilson. Carl, welcome to joined by Carl Nilson. Carl, welcome to the show. the show. the show. >> Hey guys, thanks for having me. >> Hey guys, thanks for having me. >> Hey guys, thanks for having me. >> Great to have you. Carl is a freelance >> Great to have you. Carl is a freelance >> Great to have you. Carl is a freelance designer, has been for longer than a designer, has been for longer than a designer, has been for longer than a decade. And we came across his Instagram decade. And we came across his Instagram decade. And we came across his Instagram because a lot of the projects that he because a lot of the projects that he because a lot of the projects that he has found himself working on, live has found himself working on, live has found himself working on, live within the world of church merch, which within the world of church merch, which within the world of church merch, which is short is short is short >> for church merchandise, aka shirts and >> for church merchandise, aka shirts and >> for church merchandise, aka shirts and clothing items, apparel. And we clothing items, apparel. And we clothing items, apparel. And we realized, you know, we haven't really realized, you know, we haven't really realized, you know, we haven't really done an episode on that. And I can't say done an episode on that. And I can't say done an episode on that. And I can't say with any level of confidence that we with any level of confidence that we with any level of confidence that we have done too much of those projects have done too much of those projects have done too much of those projects ourselves, but we have been asked a lot ourselves, but we have been asked a lot ourselves, but we have been asked a lot about it. So, we figured we'd bring on a about it. So, we figured we'd bring on a about it. So, we figured we'd bring on a specialist who does this work uh very specialist who does this work uh very specialist who does this work uh very frequently. And so, we wanted to start frequently. And so, we wanted to start frequently. And so, we wanted to start here, Carl, with the question, okay, a here, Carl, with the question, okay, a here, Carl, with the question, okay, a church comes to you and they want a church comes to you and they want a church comes to you and they want a t-shirt, let's say, start simple, just t-shirt, let's say, start simple, just t-shirt, let's say, start simple, just with a t-shirt.

with a t-shirt. with a t-shirt. >> We often do. Y does the process begin >> We often do. Y does the process begin >> We often do. Y does the process begin for something like that. So, one thing for something like that. So, one thing for something like that. So, one thing that's kind of cool and unique about that's kind of cool and unique about that's kind of cool and unique about designing merch for churches is that it designing merch for churches is that it designing merch for churches is that it usually has a purpose. Like, hey, we've usually has a purpose. Like, hey, we've usually has a purpose. Like, hey, we've got this big event coming up or we have got this big event coming up or we have got this big event coming up or we have a new ministry launch or a new ministry launch or a new ministry launch or uh usually there's some reason we need uh usually there's some reason we need uh usually there's some reason we need merch by this day. So, there's kind of a merch by this day. So, there's kind of a merch by this day. So, there's kind of a nugget of what we want the merch to do. nugget of what we want the merch to do. nugget of what we want the merch to do. Sometimes there's also like, hey, we Sometimes there's also like, hey, we Sometimes there's also like, hey, we just want to refresh the store. We want just want to refresh the store. We want just want to refresh the store. We want people, you know, to be excited to go people, you know, to be excited to go people, you know, to be excited to go brag on their church when they when they brag on their church when they when they brag on their church when they when they wear this outside. But for a lot of wear this outside. But for a lot of wear this outside. But for a lot of projects, there's a reason. So that's projects, there's a reason. So that's projects, there's a reason. So that's something to to kind of bite on to something to to kind of bite on to something to to kind of bite on to whether, like I said, it's event or whether, like I said, it's event or whether, like I said, it's event or baptisms are coming up. Um, there's baptisms are coming up. Um, there's baptisms are coming up. Um, there's usually a a starting point for why the usually a a starting point for why the usually a a starting point for why the shirt why the shirt is like why they're shirt why the shirt is like why they're shirt why the shirt is like why they're doing it. And that gives me like, all doing it. And that gives me like, all doing it. And that gives me like, all right, now I know a little bit about at right, now I know a little bit about at right, now I know a little bit about at least my first steps of design. It's got least my first steps of design. It's got least my first steps of design. It's got to be a shirt that works for baptisms. to be a shirt that works for baptisms. to be a shirt that works for baptisms. >> I mean, maybe this is my own point of >> I mean, maybe this is my own point of >> I mean, maybe this is my own point of curiosity. What percentage do you think curiosity. What percentage do you think curiosity. What percentage do you think of projects that you're working on are of projects that you're working on are of projects that you're working on are for like a specific event thing like for like a specific event thing like for like a specific event thing like baptism versus hey we just want like baptism versus hey we just want like baptism versus hey we just want like swag for the church for people to like swag for the church for people to like swag for the church for people to like wear you know in and about their wear you know in and about their wear you know in and about their community.

community. community. >> Yeah. I bet it's like 6040. 60 being >> Yeah. I bet it's like 6040. 60 being >> Yeah. I bet it's like 6040. 60 being like we have a specific need. We're like we have a specific need. We're like we have a specific need. We're going to need shirts for the the youth going to need shirts for the the youth going to need shirts for the the youth allnighter and then 40 is like we just allnighter and then 40 is like we just allnighter and then 40 is like we just want cool updates. want cool updates. want cool updates. >> So baptism youth. What are some of the >> So baptism youth. What are some of the >> So baptism youth. What are some of the other like most popular eventbased merch other like most popular eventbased merch other like most popular eventbased merch needs would you say? needs would you say? needs would you say? >> Yeah, sometimes it's uh associated with >> Yeah, sometimes it's uh associated with >> Yeah, sometimes it's uh associated with a campaign like if somebody's doing a a campaign like if somebody's doing a a campaign like if somebody's doing a capital campaign or a big teaching push capital campaign or a big teaching push capital campaign or a big teaching push like hey we're going to do this all like hey we're going to do this all like hey we're going to do this all year. We want people to get really year. We want people to get really year. We want people to get really involved at the beginning. Um so involved at the beginning. Um so involved at the beginning. Um so sometimes it has to do with teaching sometimes it has to do with teaching sometimes it has to do with teaching that's kind of more infrequent that's kind of more infrequent that's kind of more infrequent um or like a special worship night. um or like a special worship night. um or like a special worship night. That's definitely one where people want That's definitely one where people want That's definitely one where people want Birch. Uh whether or not it says, you Birch. Uh whether or not it says, you Birch. Uh whether or not it says, you know, Kensington Church worship night or know, Kensington Church worship night or know, Kensington Church worship night or if it's just, hey, we want one new item if it's just, hey, we want one new item if it's just, hey, we want one new item so that people are excited to be here. so that people are excited to be here. so that people are excited to be here. Uh that's another thing that kind of Uh that's another thing that kind of Uh that's another thing that kind of inspires merchandise. inspires merchandise. inspires merchandise. >> I don't know if this was true for you, >> I don't know if this was true for you, >> I don't know if this was true for you, Carl. We're Canadian. Okay. So maybe Carl. We're Canadian. Okay. So maybe Carl. We're Canadian. Okay. So maybe this was different, but there was a this was different, but there was a this was different, but there was a season in my high school years where I season in my high school years where I season in my high school years where I wore a lot of Christian related merch wore a lot of Christian related merch wore a lot of Christian related merch and uh fortunately or unfortunately, and uh fortunately or unfortunately, and uh fortunately or unfortunately, every single item was punated.

every single item was punated. every single item was punated. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yeah. You got to pray hard, dude. >> Yeah. You got to pray hard, dude. >> Yeah. You got to pray hard, dude. >> Yeah. So my my sense is that if we're >> Yeah. So my my sense is that if we're >> Yeah. So my my sense is that if we're talking about modern church merch, we're talking about modern church merch, we're talking about modern church merch, we're we're we've moved away from the puns and we're we've moved away from the puns and we're we've moved away from the puns and we're trying to make, you know, we're trying to make, you know, we're trying to make, you know, merchandise and apparel that is more merchandise and apparel that is more merchandise and apparel that is more artistic in nature. When you get started artistic in nature. When you get started artistic in nature. When you get started on a new project, you've got, let's say, on a new project, you've got, let's say, on a new project, you've got, let's say, a functional ministry event or there's a a functional ministry event or there's a a functional ministry event or there's a reason for this, which is great. reason for this, which is great. reason for this, which is great. Churches are usually coming at it, like Churches are usually coming at it, like Churches are usually coming at it, like you said, with a reason. Where do we go you said, with a reason. Where do we go you said, with a reason. Where do we go from there? Are we talking like, "Hey, from there? Are we talking like, "Hey, from there? Are we talking like, "Hey, please provide me with your branding please provide me with your branding please provide me with your branding church and I can work off of that." Are church and I can work off of that." Are church and I can work off of that." Are you kind of like, "No, this is my unique you kind of like, "No, this is my unique you kind of like, "No, this is my unique style and people come to me for this style and people come to me for this style and people come to me for this specific reason." Some overlap of the specific reason." Some overlap of the specific reason." Some overlap of the two. two. two. >> Yeah. No, no, there's definitely some >> Yeah. No, no, there's definitely some >> Yeah. No, no, there's definitely some overlap and I'd very much like to be overlap and I'd very much like to be overlap and I'd very much like to be aware of a church brand. Uh but rarely aware of a church brand. Uh but rarely aware of a church brand. Uh but rarely does that inform the whole design. Um does that inform the whole design. Um does that inform the whole design. Um like just throwing your logo on the like just throwing your logo on the like just throwing your logo on the front of a shirt. It's not the worst front of a shirt. It's not the worst front of a shirt. It's not the worst thing you can do and if people are thing you can do and if people are thing you can do and if people are asking for that, that should be one asking for that, that should be one asking for that, that should be one option. But very rarely is it like our option. But very rarely is it like our option. But very rarely is it like our church is orange so this shirt's got to church is orange so this shirt's got to church is orange so this shirt's got to be orange. Usually shirts have a lot be orange. Usually shirts have a lot be orange. Usually shirts have a lot more flexibility because people know more flexibility because people know more flexibility because people know it's something you're wearing every day.

it's something you're wearing every day. it's something you're wearing every day. It's not 100% about brand recognition. It's not 100% about brand recognition. It's not 100% about brand recognition. It's more about actual usability. Um It's more about actual usability. Um It's more about actual usability. Um it's funny you mentioned the pun stuff. it's funny you mentioned the pun stuff. it's funny you mentioned the pun stuff. That's totally my era too. Um like plays That's totally my era too. Um like plays That's totally my era too. Um like plays on brands, but it's Christian. Like um I on brands, but it's Christian. Like um I on brands, but it's Christian. Like um I think that came from an era where people think that came from an era where people think that came from an era where people had to kind of wink wink about being a had to kind of wink wink about being a had to kind of wink wink about being a Christian. Had to sneak it in through Christian. Had to sneak it in through Christian. Had to sneak it in through something fun. But I think there's a something fun. But I think there's a something fun. But I think there's a different kind of boldness right now different kind of boldness right now different kind of boldness right now where people are like, I want people to where people are like, I want people to where people are like, I want people to know totally upfront like what I know totally upfront like what I know totally upfront like what I believe. So people really love putting believe. So people really love putting believe. So people really love putting scripture like I I love that that's on scripture like I I love that that's on scripture like I I love that that's on the table now to just have a bold the table now to just have a bold the table now to just have a bold statement from scripture. Like what a statement from scripture. Like what a statement from scripture. Like what a great conversation starter that is. Um great conversation starter that is. Um great conversation starter that is. Um so that's that's where I start. I don't so that's that's where I start. I don't so that's that's where I start. I don't know if this 100% answers to your know if this 100% answers to your know if this 100% answers to your question, but like a lot of times if question, but like a lot of times if question, but like a lot of times if it's not for a specific event or even if it's not for a specific event or even if it's not for a specific event or even if it is, I try to start with a phrase or it is, I try to start with a phrase or it is, I try to start with a phrase or some important saying or scripture cuz I some important saying or scripture cuz I some important saying or scripture cuz I really like working with type. Even if really like working with type. Even if really like working with type. Even if the shirt turns into something that has the shirt turns into something that has the shirt turns into something that has more illustrative elements, type is the more illustrative elements, type is the more illustrative elements, type is the first step for me cuz it's the most first step for me cuz it's the most first step for me cuz it's the most important thing is the messaging in any important thing is the messaging in any important thing is the messaging in any item. And it's just kind of where I item. And it's just kind of where I item. And it's just kind of where I start feeling the most creative is I start feeling the most creative is I start feeling the most creative is I open up Illustrator and I just slam the open up Illustrator and I just slam the open up Illustrator and I just slam the types in, start going through fonts, types in, start going through fonts, types in, start going through fonts, start stretching them and squashing them start stretching them and squashing them start stretching them and squashing them and making them rough. So that's that's and making them rough. So that's that's and making them rough. So that's that's step one for me usually.

step one for me usually. step one for me usually. >> Well, I love where this is headed >> Well, I love where this is headed >> Well, I love where this is headed because, you know, we're starting to because, you know, we're starting to because, you know, we're starting to talk about style and I would like to talk about style and I would like to talk about style and I would like to take a few moments to talk about your take a few moments to talk about your take a few moments to talk about your style in particular. Any artist of any style in particular. Any artist of any style in particular. Any artist of any variety kind of has a style that they're variety kind of has a style that they're variety kind of has a style that they're most proficient at or certainly most most proficient at or certainly most most proficient at or certainly most comfortable with. And if anyone spends comfortable with. And if anyone spends comfortable with. And if anyone spends any time looking at your Instagram or any time looking at your Instagram or any time looking at your Instagram or your Dribble account, we'll link to both your Dribble account, we'll link to both your Dribble account, we'll link to both in the show notes. And if you're in the show notes. And if you're in the show notes. And if you're listening to the show, you might want to listening to the show, you might want to listening to the show, you might want to watch this one on YouTube because we are watch this one on YouTube because we are watch this one on YouTube because we are going to start showing um some examples going to start showing um some examples going to start showing um some examples of of your work and and in particular of of your work and and in particular of of your work and and in particular your style. If anyone really spends any your style. If anyone really spends any your style. If anyone really spends any time with your work, they'll see um time with your work, they'll see um time with your work, they'll see um pretty quickly that you you have um a pretty quickly that you you have um a pretty quickly that you you have um a style that that I would describe as kind style that that I would describe as kind style that that I would describe as kind of like collagebased. of like collagebased. of like collagebased. And so I'd be curious to hear a little And so I'd be curious to hear a little And so I'd be curious to hear a little bit from you about if that is kind of bit from you about if that is kind of bit from you about if that is kind of your your wheelhouse, if that's where your your wheelhouse, if that's where your your wheelhouse, if that's where you feel most comfortable in the collage you feel most comfortable in the collage you feel most comfortable in the collage kind of style and then if so, like how kind of style and then if so, like how kind of style and then if so, like how do you go about do you go about do you go about creating a collage digitally? Like how creating a collage digitally? Like how creating a collage digitally? Like how are you handling assets? Where what what are you handling assets? Where what what are you handling assets? Where what what layer are you starting with? And then layer are you starting with? And then layer are you starting with? And then what's your approach to actually put what's your approach to actually put what's your approach to actually put that onto a piece of merchandise and that onto a piece of merchandise and that onto a piece of merchandise and have that design that you know presents have that design that you know presents have that design that you know presents really well on Instagram or on Dribble, really well on Instagram or on Dribble, really well on Instagram or on Dribble, but have it translate to a printed piece but have it translate to a printed piece but have it translate to a printed piece of merch as well. It's it's really funny of merch as well. It's it's really funny of merch as well. It's it's really funny to hear you describe it that way cuz I to hear you describe it that way cuz I to hear you describe it that way cuz I think you're right. I think I do have a think you're right. I think I do have a think you're right. I think I do have a style, but I really backed into it and I style, but I really backed into it and I style, but I really backed into it and I think a lot of artists do. Um I never think a lot of artists do. Um I never think a lot of artists do. Um I never thought like I didn't sit down and make thought like I didn't sit down and make thought like I didn't sit down and make myself a brand book for like I love big myself a brand book for like I love big myself a brand book for like I love big bold type. I love collage. Uh, my style bold type. I love collage. Uh, my style bold type. I love collage. Uh, my style is just kind of the sum of instincts, is just kind of the sum of instincts, is just kind of the sum of instincts, right? So, it's funny. Somebody looking right? So, it's funny. Somebody looking right? So, it's funny. Somebody looking at my work probably has a better sense

at my work probably has a better sense at my work probably has a better sense of what my style is than me because I'm of what my style is than me because I'm of what my style is than me because I'm just like, just like, just like, >> I open up a canvas and like, all right, >> I open up a canvas and like, all right, >> I open up a canvas and like, all right, how do I roll with this? Like, oh, I'm how do I roll with this? Like, oh, I'm how do I roll with this? Like, oh, I'm definitely going to want to throw some definitely going to want to throw some definitely going to want to throw some grid on there. I'm definitely going to grid on there. I'm definitely going to grid on there. I'm definitely going to want to use, you know, this kind of type want to use, you know, this kind of type want to use, you know, this kind of type or whatever. Um, so for me, it's just or whatever. Um, so for me, it's just or whatever. Um, so for me, it's just following my nose. But since I'm always following my nose. But since I'm always following my nose. But since I'm always me, that kind of does result in things me, that kind of does result in things me, that kind of does result in things having a, you know, some shared having a, you know, some shared having a, you know, some shared sensibilities. Um, which is something I sensibilities. Um, which is something I sensibilities. Um, which is something I like. And now that I'm aware of it, I like. And now that I'm aware of it, I like. And now that I'm aware of it, I can kind of lean into it and people are can kind of lean into it and people are can kind of lean into it and people are coming to me for a little bit of that coming to me for a little bit of that coming to me for a little bit of that specific Carl style. specific Carl style. specific Carl style. >> But the other side of the coin is I have >> But the other side of the coin is I have >> But the other side of the coin is I have to kind of consciously like don't just to kind of consciously like don't just to kind of consciously like don't just do what comes automatic. Like if I've do what comes automatic. Like if I've do what comes automatic. Like if I've done three shirts or five shirts in a done three shirts or five shirts in a done three shirts or five shirts in a row and they all use the same font, like row and they all use the same font, like row and they all use the same font, like is that style or am I getting in a is that style or am I getting in a is that style or am I getting in a little bit of a rut? So sometimes I have little bit of a rut? So sometimes I have little bit of a rut? So sometimes I have to take things off the table like you're to take things off the table like you're to take things off the table like you're not allowed to use these little star not allowed to use these little star not allowed to use these little star icons. No, you're not allowed to use icons. No, you're not allowed to use icons. No, you're not allowed to use Helvetica today, right? Just to Helvetica today, right? Just to Helvetica today, right? Just to [laughter] kind of keep myself fresh so [laughter] kind of keep myself fresh so [laughter] kind of keep myself fresh so I'm not doing the same thing over and I'm not doing the same thing over and I'm not doing the same thing over and over. Um, over. Um, over. Um, but the other another part of that but the other another part of that but the other another part of that question was like where do I get assets question was like where do I get assets question was like where do I get assets and that is totally just following my and that is totally just following my and that is totally just following my nose. Um, I have a huge [snorts] folder nose. Um, I have a huge [snorts] folder nose. Um, I have a huge [snorts] folder of the most random stuff that I'm always of the most random stuff that I'm always of the most random stuff that I'm always collecting. Um, and if a shirt requires collecting. Um, and if a shirt requires collecting. Um, and if a shirt requires it, I'll also do some illustration or if it, I'll also do some illustration or if it, I'll also do some illustration or if it's icons, I'm pretty comfortable with it's icons, I'm pretty comfortable with it's icons, I'm pretty comfortable with that. But I love finding like archival that. But I love finding like archival that. But I love finding like archival stuff or things that are kind of archaic stuff or things that are kind of archaic stuff or things that are kind of archaic even, right? Like that's totally my even, right? Like that's totally my even, right? Like that's totally my taste. And I think right now it's taste. And I think right now it's taste. And I think right now it's working stylishly to use stuff from like working stylishly to use stuff from like working stylishly to use stuff from like the dark ages. I love that that's the dark ages. I love that that's the dark ages. I love that that's allowed. Um, so I'm always snooping allowed. Um, so I'm always snooping allowed. Um, so I'm always snooping through my personal files, looking through my personal files, looking through my personal files, looking through archival things or just stuff I

through archival things or just stuff I through archival things or just stuff I make by hand because I know for this make by hand because I know for this make by hand because I know for this project it really needs this icon. I may project it really needs this icon. I may project it really needs this icon. I may as well just make it myself cuz I have a as well just make it myself cuz I have a as well just make it myself cuz I have a a perfect vision for it. a perfect vision for it. a perfect vision for it. >> Okay. So, if we're retracing the process >> Okay. So, if we're retracing the process >> Okay. So, if we're retracing the process so far, we're starting with a functional so far, we're starting with a functional so far, we're starting with a functional need or purpose, whether that's, hey, need or purpose, whether that's, hey, need or purpose, whether that's, hey, you know, we're launching a new church you know, we're launching a new church you know, we're launching a new church name and we want to have a bunch of name and we want to have a bunch of name and we want to have a bunch of merch that goes with it, or it's a new merch that goes with it, or it's a new merch that goes with it, or it's a new service time and we're using that as an service time and we're using that as an service time and we're using that as an excuse to like launch a new shirt or excuse to like launch a new shirt or excuse to like launch a new shirt or it's baptism, it's volunteer, it's youth it's baptism, it's volunteer, it's youth it's baptism, it's volunteer, it's youth related. Okay, there's that functional related. Okay, there's that functional related. Okay, there's that functional purpose. Then from there, you said purpose. Then from there, you said purpose. Then from there, you said you're starting with like a phrase or you're starting with like a phrase or you're starting with like a phrase or some type of language and then that's some type of language and then that's some type of language and then that's going to lend itself to putting a font going to lend itself to putting a font going to lend itself to putting a font and type actually on the canvas. Let's and type actually on the canvas. Let's and type actually on the canvas. Let's imagine we have our phrase. It's for imagine we have our phrase. It's for imagine we have our phrase. It's for baptisms. It's not raised to life baptisms. It's not raised to life baptisms. It's not raised to life [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> for the purposes of this conversation. >> for the purposes of this conversation. >> for the purposes of this conversation. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> Can you just tell us what else we could >> Can you just tell us what else we could >> Can you just tell us what else we could put? That's the question everyone put? That's the question everyone put? That's the question everyone [laughter] wants to know. Carl, we don't [laughter] wants to know. Carl, we don't [laughter] wants to know. Carl, we don't want to say raised to life anymore. It want to say raised to life anymore. It want to say raised to life anymore. It was great. Right. It was great. was great. Right. It was great. was great. Right. It was great. >> It was really great. >> It was really great. >> It was really great. >> What are we doing? What are the >> What are we doing? What are the >> What are we doing? What are the alternatives? what are you seeing in the alternatives? what are you seeing in the alternatives? what are you seeing in the trenches?

trenches? trenches? >> Right? If baptism is this huge >> Right? If baptism is this huge >> Right? If baptism is this huge life-changing eternity altering event, life-changing eternity altering event, life-changing eternity altering event, we could probably think of a few more we could probably think of a few more we could probably think of a few more ways to describe it. Right? Um so ways to describe it. Right? Um so ways to describe it. Right? Um so actually I've gotten tons of emails that actually I've gotten tons of emails that actually I've gotten tons of emails that are like, "Hey, we want to do baptism are like, "Hey, we want to do baptism are like, "Hey, we want to do baptism shirts that don't look like baptism shirts that don't look like baptism shirts that don't look like baptism shirts." Um so it's it's actually been shirts." Um so it's it's actually been shirts." Um so it's it's actually been fun to kind of think of like, well, what fun to kind of think of like, well, what fun to kind of think of like, well, what is it we're trying to express and look is it we're trying to express and look is it we're trying to express and look through scripture? I just did a shirt through scripture? I just did a shirt through scripture? I just did a shirt that says really bold in the front like that says really bold in the front like that says really bold in the front like welcome the new creation. Like you're welcome the new creation. Like you're welcome the new creation. Like you're stepping into something that's stepping into something that's stepping into something that's completely new. completely new. completely new. >> It like your world's about to change. >> It like your world's about to change. >> It like your world's about to change. your life's about to change. Um, like your life's about to change. Um, like your life's about to change. Um, like you're stepping into something new and you're stepping into something new and you're stepping into something new and that newness is what I really want to that newness is what I really want to that newness is what I really want to focus on or like freshness. Um, so focus on or like freshness. Um, so focus on or like freshness. Um, so there's there's lots of angles you can there's there's lots of angles you can there's there's lots of angles you can take on it. Um, like I don't want to get take on it. Um, like I don't want to get take on it. Um, like I don't want to get ahead of you, but baptism shirts have a ahead of you, but baptism shirts have a ahead of you, but baptism shirts have a lot of specific needs though. lot of specific needs though. lot of specific needs though. >> Tell me. >> Tell me. >> Tell me. >> Um, it needs to be dark, right? any >> Um, it needs to be dark, right? any >> Um, it needs to be dark, right? any because if somebody's getting dark, you because if somebody's getting dark, you because if somebody's getting dark, you can't be a t-shirt. can't be a t-shirt. can't be a t-shirt. >> I'm not really sure. I follow. What are >> I'm not really sure. I follow. What are >> I'm not really sure. I follow. What are you getting? Yeah, I'm not really you getting? Yeah, I'm not really you getting? Yeah, I'm not really [laughter] sure. [laughter] sure. [laughter] sure. >> I can give you a full explanation of >> I can give you a full explanation of >> I can give you a full explanation of some churches that have done that some churches that have done that some churches that have done that incorrectly, but maybe after the incorrectly, but maybe after the incorrectly, but maybe after the podcast. podcast. podcast. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, and and usually it's like it's a great and and usually it's like it's a great and and usually it's like it's a great moment for photography, right? Like I moment for photography, right? Like I moment for photography, right? Like I hate to think of it as marketing, but hate to think of it as marketing, but hate to think of it as marketing, but like that is if you're running a church, like that is if you're running a church, like that is if you're running a church, man, this is the point that that moment, man, this is the point that that moment, man, this is the point that that moment, you know, it's that's not the instance you know, it's that's not the instance you know, it's that's not the instance of salvation, but that's a huge marker of salvation, but that's a huge marker of salvation, but that's a huge marker in somebody's journey. So capturing that in somebody's journey. So capturing that in somebody's journey. So capturing that photographically photographically photographically like if the shirt can can can add to like if the shirt can can can add to like if the shirt can can can add to that message and add to that moment, that message and add to that moment, that message and add to that moment, that's a huge win.

that's a huge win. that's a huge win. >> So um actually, I think I have some >> So um actually, I think I have some >> So um actually, I think I have some examples of I was working with a church examples of I was working with a church examples of I was working with a church who I really love and they really trust who I really love and they really trust who I really love and they really trust me creatively. Um, so I came up with me creatively. Um, so I came up with me creatively. Um, so I came up with three options and they were all, let's three options and they were all, let's three options and they were all, let's assume they all look cool. Let's take assume they all look cool. Let's take assume they all look cool. Let's take that off the table. Um, you know, that off the table. Um, you know, that off the table. Um, you know, everybody can have their own judgment, everybody can have their own judgment, everybody can have their own judgment, but like assuming they're all really but like assuming they're all really but like assuming they're all really cool looking shirts. Um, cool looking shirts. Um, cool looking shirts. Um, one of them had these three tiny icons one of them had these three tiny icons one of them had these three tiny icons in the center. I thought they were in the center. I thought they were in the center. I thought they were really rad. They had lots of meaning and really rad. They had lots of meaning and really rad. They had lots of meaning and I put little tiny scripture references I put little tiny scripture references I put little tiny scripture references beneath them. Um, and it would have been beneath them. Um, and it would have been beneath them. Um, and it would have been like a great street wear shirt, but like a great street wear shirt, but like a great street wear shirt, but there's just no boldness. And I try to there's just no boldness. And I try to there's just no boldness. And I try to imagine somebody like bursting up out of imagine somebody like bursting up out of imagine somebody like bursting up out of the water. They're crying, the pastor's the water. They're crying, the pastor's the water. They're crying, the pastor's crying, everyone in the audience is, and crying, everyone in the audience is, and crying, everyone in the audience is, and then it's like, what is that? The church then it's like, what is that? The church then it's like, what is that? The church logo? Is that a little sheep or logo? Is that a little sheep or logo? Is that a little sheep or something? something? something? >> Like, it just didn't match the moment. >> Like, it just didn't match the moment. >> Like, it just didn't match the moment. So, what we ended up going was was So, what we ended up going was was So, what we ended up going was was something that was a little less something that was a little less something that was a little less designy, right? Less fiddly, less designy, right? Less fiddly, less designy, right? Less fiddly, less intricate, but just a big bold statement intricate, but just a big bold statement intricate, but just a big bold statement about like that was the welcome the new about like that was the welcome the new about like that was the welcome the new creation. Like, welcome to the club, creation. Like, welcome to the club, creation. Like, welcome to the club, man. This is a huge moment. let's like man. This is a huge moment. let's like man. This is a huge moment. let's like have have the little part that that I'm have have the little part that that I'm have have the little part that that I'm adding to your baptism moment. Like I adding to your baptism moment. Like I adding to your baptism moment. Like I want it to be as loud and celebratory as want it to be as loud and celebratory as want it to be as loud and celebratory as as your moment is. So that was like as your moment is. So that was like as your moment is. So that was like having to decide between what a cool having to decide between what a cool having to decide between what a cool looking shirt is and what the right looking shirt is and what the right looking shirt is and what the right shirt for this moment is.

shirt for this moment is. shirt for this moment is. >> And was that something you're in >> And was that something you're in >> And was that something you're in conversation with the church back and conversation with the church back and conversation with the church back and forth? It sounds like when you went to forth? It sounds like when you went to forth? It sounds like when you went to them you had three different designs. Is them you had three different designs. Is them you had three different designs. Is that kind of a common approach for you? that kind of a common approach for you? that kind of a common approach for you? So that was they reached out and they So that was they reached out and they So that was they reached out and they were one of the churches said, "We want were one of the churches said, "We want were one of the churches said, "We want baptism that doesn't look like your baptism that doesn't look like your baptism that doesn't look like your standard baptism shirt." Uh so I said, standard baptism shirt." Uh so I said, standard baptism shirt." Uh so I said, "Cool. I don't know what that means yet. "Cool. I don't know what that means yet. "Cool. I don't know what that means yet. Let me, you know, let me run away and Let me, you know, let me run away and Let me, you know, let me run away and I'll I'll work on a couple concepts." I'll I'll work on a couple concepts." I'll I'll work on a couple concepts." Sometimes churches totally know what Sometimes churches totally know what Sometimes churches totally know what they want. We discuss it up front. We're they want. We discuss it up front. We're they want. We discuss it up front. We're like, "Oh yeah, that's a great verse. like, "Oh yeah, that's a great verse. like, "Oh yeah, that's a great verse. Let's get that up front." Huge text like Let's get that up front." Huge text like Let's get that up front." Huge text like rock and roll, uh we have more of a rock and roll, uh we have more of a rock and roll, uh we have more of a plan, but this one was like, "We don't plan, but this one was like, "We don't plan, but this one was like, "We don't know exactly what we what we want yet, know exactly what we what we want yet, know exactly what we what we want yet, but let's just be creative. try not to but let's just be creative. try not to but let's just be creative. try not to think of it as baptism shirts. Just try think of it as baptism shirts. Just try think of it as baptism shirts. Just try to think of them as cool stuff you'd to think of them as cool stuff you'd to think of them as cool stuff you'd want to wear and take home. Um, and then want to wear and take home. Um, and then want to wear and take home. Um, and then we'll kind of refine. And that's how we'll kind of refine. And that's how we'll kind of refine. And that's how that one worked. I just went pretty that one worked. I just went pretty that one worked. I just went pretty broad with the ideas and then we broad with the ideas and then we broad with the ideas and then we narrowed it down afterwards. narrowed it down afterwards. narrowed it down afterwards. >> We work with churches every week, Carl, >> We work with churches every week, Carl, >> We work with churches every week, Carl, on the social media front. And one of on the social media front. And one of on the social media front. And one of the nice things about those partnerships the nice things about those partnerships the nice things about those partnerships is that every single week our churches is that every single week our churches is that every single week our churches are working with the same person on are working with the same person on are working with the same person on staff at our organization. And so you staff at our organization. And so you staff at our organization. And so you build a rapport. And so when there is build a rapport. And so when there is build a rapport. And so when there is feedback, if something needs feedback, if something needs feedback, if something needs troubleshooting or triaging, there is troubleshooting or triaging, there is troubleshooting or triaging, there is that existing uh equity that exists that existing uh equity that exists that existing uh equity that exists between those two parties, I think there between those two parties, I think there between those two parties, I think there is this well-known experience of a is this well-known experience of a is this well-known experience of a creative working with a new client, in creative working with a new client, in creative working with a new client, in this case, a new church, and the this case, a new church, and the this case, a new church, and the challenge of communicating creative challenge of communicating creative challenge of communicating creative ideas when perhaps the person on the ideas when perhaps the person on the ideas when perhaps the person on the other side who has the decision-m power other side who has the decision-m power other side who has the decision-m power is not especially versed in the language

is not especially versed in the language is not especially versed in the language of creativity themselves. How would you of creativity themselves. How would you of creativity themselves. How would you like help a church communicate better in like help a church communicate better in like help a church communicate better in a church merch creative project so that a church merch creative project so that a church merch creative project so that you the designer can fulfill the needs you the designer can fulfill the needs you the designer can fulfill the needs of the church but the church also is of the church but the church also is of the church but the church also is very happy at the end of the day. They very happy at the end of the day. They very happy at the end of the day. They have something in their mind, right? have something in their mind, right? have something in their mind, right? Presumably they know what they like and Presumably they know what they like and Presumably they know what they like and don't like in some respect, but it's don't like in some respect, but it's don't like in some respect, but it's really hard to communicate. And of really hard to communicate. And of really hard to communicate. And of course, you know, just make it pop more course, you know, just make it pop more course, you know, just make it pop more is not going to help anyone. Like what is not going to help anyone. Like what is not going to help anyone. Like what are some of the hurdles there that are some of the hurdles there that are some of the hurdles there that you've experienced and how have you you've experienced and how have you you've experienced and how have you navigated that? navigated that? navigated that? Yeah, that's a big part of freelance is Yeah, that's a big part of freelance is Yeah, that's a big part of freelance is sometimes I'm going back to a client sometimes I'm going back to a client sometimes I'm going back to a client I've worked with for years and we just I've worked with for years and we just I've worked with for years and we just get each other. It's like, you know, get each other. It's like, you know, get each other. It's like, you know, telepathy instead of having to describe telepathy instead of having to describe telepathy instead of having to describe it over email. But sometimes it's our it over email. But sometimes it's our it over email. But sometimes it's our very first project. I don't know what very first project. I don't know what very first project. I don't know what you're like. I don't even really know you're like. I don't even really know you're like. I don't even really know what your church is like. Um, so for me, what your church is like. Um, so for me, what your church is like. Um, so for me, I like to do a little bit of research. I like to do a little bit of research. I like to do a little bit of research. Um, this is off email. I don't ask them Um, this is off email. I don't ask them Um, this is off email. I don't ask them to put together like a a document on to put together like a a document on to put together like a a document on their church culture, but like I'll their church culture, but like I'll their church culture, but like I'll click through some sermons. will go on click through some sermons. will go on click through some sermons. will go on their website just to see what they're their website just to see what they're their website just to see what they're about, what uh what sort of stuff about, what uh what sort of stuff about, what uh what sort of stuff they've done in the past that they think they've done in the past that they think they've done in the past that they think is cool. Um because I'm trying to really is cool. Um because I'm trying to really is cool. Um because I'm trying to really serve them specifically, right? Uh I serve them specifically, right? Uh I serve them specifically, right? Uh I don't want to just make another cool don't want to just make another cool don't want to just make another cool portfolio piece. I want to make portfolio piece. I want to make portfolio piece. I want to make something that makes your church sing something that makes your church sing something that makes your church sing and your um congregants fall in love, and your um congregants fall in love, and your um congregants fall in love, which is it's very different, you know, which is it's very different, you know, which is it's very different, you know, from churches from churches from churches >> across the country, age ranges. Like >> across the country, age ranges. Like >> across the country, age ranges. Like there's tons of different factors that there's tons of different factors that there's tons of different factors that um that I like to that steer me a little um that I like to that steer me a little um that I like to that steer me a little bit.

bit. bit. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Um, but the silver bullet for >> Um, but the silver bullet for >> Um, but the silver bullet for communication is I like pictures. Some communication is I like pictures. Some communication is I like pictures. Some artists, some designers might be like, artists, some designers might be like, artists, some designers might be like, you know, don't uh I want to I want to you know, don't uh I want to I want to you know, don't uh I want to I want to work with a completely blank canvas. Let work with a completely blank canvas. Let work with a completely blank canvas. Let me just be creative. I'm not like that me just be creative. I'm not like that me just be creative. I'm not like that at all. I crave direction. Um, so it at all. I crave direction. Um, so it at all. I crave direction. Um, so it might feel like homework sometimes, but might feel like homework sometimes, but might feel like homework sometimes, but I tell almost every client I work with, I tell almost every client I work with, I tell almost every client I work with, unless they come at ahead of time with a unless they come at ahead of time with a unless they come at ahead of time with a really clear vision, I'm like, "Pick me really clear vision, I'm like, "Pick me really clear vision, I'm like, "Pick me 15 shirts you already love." And not so 15 shirts you already love." And not so 15 shirts you already love." And not so I can copy and um but just so like a I can copy and um but just so like a I can copy and um but just so like a picture really is worth a thousand picture really is worth a thousand picture really is worth a thousand words. Like show me the you know the words. Like show me the you know the words. Like show me the you know the last sweatshirt you bought and that'll last sweatshirt you bought and that'll last sweatshirt you bought and that'll teach me like okay that's what you think teach me like okay that's what you think teach me like okay that's what you think is cool. Modern to you actually means is cool. Modern to you actually means is cool. Modern to you actually means like to some people modern might mean like to some people modern might mean like to some people modern might mean really tiny fight font and really subtle really tiny fight font and really subtle really tiny fight font and really subtle but modern you know to you or me might but modern you know to you or me might but modern you know to you or me might be like no I mean like a cool modern be like no I mean like a cool modern be like no I mean like a cool modern look right now which is actually huge look right now which is actually huge look right now which is actually huge font real street wear big boxy cut. So font real street wear big boxy cut. So font real street wear big boxy cut. So showing me images, it just like it lets showing me images, it just like it lets showing me images, it just like it lets us sprint past a million emails of us sprint past a million emails of us sprint past a million emails of trying to explain well something that trying to explain well something that trying to explain well something that you know this artist might wear or etc you know this artist might wear or etc you know this artist might wear or etc etc. Um I love pictures. I love making etc. Um I love pictures. I love making etc. Um I love pictures. I love making Pinterest boards for every project. And Pinterest boards for every project. And Pinterest boards for every project. And like I said like if you if if our like I said like if you if if our like I said like if you if if our inspiration is broad enough, it's really inspiration is broad enough, it's really inspiration is broad enough, it's really impossible to copy any one thing. We're impossible to copy any one thing. We're impossible to copy any one thing. We're just trying to make something that fits just trying to make something that fits just trying to make something that fits in with your inspiration, not something in with your inspiration, not something in with your inspiration, not something that replaces it or or mimics it.

that replaces it or or mimics it. that replaces it or or mimics it. >> It's funny. I was working with one of >> It's funny. I was working with one of >> It's funny. I was working with one of the full-time staff members here at the full-time staff members here at the full-time staff members here at ProChurch Tools yesterday. We were color ProChurch Tools yesterday. We were color ProChurch Tools yesterday. We were color grading some footage and this individual grading some footage and this individual grading some footage and this individual and I have worked together for more than and I have worked together for more than and I have worked together for more than a decade. And so he throws up the first a decade. And so he throws up the first a decade. And so he throws up the first pass at the grade onto frame and I'm pass at the grade onto frame and I'm pass at the grade onto frame and I'm reviewing it and rarely does this reviewing it and rarely does this reviewing it and rarely does this happen. But I was like, I'm not feeling happen. But I was like, I'm not feeling happen. But I was like, I'm not feeling this. And I wrote back to him and I this. And I wrote back to him and I this. And I wrote back to him and I said, hey, like I think this footage is said, hey, like I think this footage is said, hey, like I think this footage is pushed too hard. Let's like try to pull pushed too hard. Let's like try to pull pushed too hard. Let's like try to pull it back and get it more natural. And his it back and get it more natural. And his it back and get it more natural. And his response was, "Can you elaborate?" And response was, "Can you elaborate?" And response was, "Can you elaborate?" And in that moment, I was like, "Huh?" I in that moment, I was like, "Huh?" I in that moment, I was like, "Huh?" I kind of thought he would get what I kind of thought he would get what I kind of thought he would get what I meant by that. And I I elaborated and I meant by that. And I I elaborated and I meant by that. And I I elaborated and I said, "Hey, the contrast has been like said, "Hey, the contrast has been like said, "Hey, the contrast has been like crunched down too much." And the colors crunched down too much." And the colors crunched down too much." And the colors are like too deep into like single are like too deep into like single are like too deep into like single swatches. Then there isn't a range of swatches. Then there isn't a range of swatches. Then there isn't a range of color. You know, we've pushed too hard color. You know, we've pushed too hard color. You know, we've pushed too hard into like, you know, this complimentary into like, you know, this complimentary into like, you know, this complimentary color cast and we've eliminated a color cast and we've eliminated a color cast and we've eliminated a spectrum of color in between. I didn't spectrum of color in between. I didn't spectrum of color in between. I didn't just send him that. I sent him a photo just send him that. I sent him a photo just send him that. I sent him a photo of the same day that I had and I agreed of the same day that I had and I agreed of the same day that I had and I agreed and I said closer to this [laughter] and and I said closer to this [laughter] and and I said closer to this [laughter] and we got there right away rather than me we got there right away rather than me we got there right away rather than me like describing it. So I think like the like describing it. So I think like the like describing it. So I think like the visuals, the Pinterest board, like visuals, the Pinterest board, like visuals, the Pinterest board, like whatever it is that shows something can whatever it is that shows something can whatever it is that shows something can be so valuable.

be so valuable. be so valuable. >> Yeah. And that's that's a a really cool >> Yeah. And that's that's a a really cool >> Yeah. And that's that's a a really cool example because that's kind of example because that's kind of example because that's kind of technician to technician. You both do technician to technician. You both do technician to technician. You both do know what the terms are, but even know what the terms are, but even know what the terms are, but even between you two, uh an image, it sells between you two, uh an image, it sells between you two, uh an image, it sells your your idea so much better. And now your your idea so much better. And now your your idea so much better. And now think of somebody if you're working with think of somebody if you're working with think of somebody if you're working with a client who like, "Hey, art's not my a client who like, "Hey, art's not my a client who like, "Hey, art's not my world. I'm trying to lead a church." world. I'm trying to lead a church." world. I'm trying to lead a church." Yeah. Like I don't want to bog them down Yeah. Like I don't want to bog them down Yeah. Like I don't want to bog them down with with technical terms. I want to with with technical terms. I want to with with technical terms. I want to actually get the message across. So actually get the message across. So actually get the message across. So there's it doesn't impress anybody to there's it doesn't impress anybody to there's it doesn't impress anybody to have lots of jargon. The clearest thing have lots of jargon. The clearest thing have lots of jargon. The clearest thing you can do is show images and then point you can do is show images and then point you can do is show images and then point out what I mean with this image is you out what I mean with this image is you out what I mean with this image is you see how that text is um distorted in see how that text is um distorted in see how that text is um distorted in this way. Like get specific with why this way. Like get specific with why this way. Like get specific with why you're sharing an image, but but have you're sharing an image, but but have you're sharing an image, but but have bring examples. That's huge. It's going bring examples. That's huge. It's going bring examples. That's huge. It's going to make things easier for both of you. to make things easier for both of you. to make things easier for both of you. >> For sure. Uh Carl, I do want to get into >> For sure. Uh Carl, I do want to get into >> For sure. Uh Carl, I do want to get into soft goods. I want to hear your soft goods. I want to hear your soft goods. I want to hear your recommendations about actual um printing recommendations about actual um printing recommendations about actual um printing houses and and shirts and and printing. houses and and shirts and and printing. houses and and shirts and and printing. And we'll get there in a few moments, And we'll get there in a few moments, And we'll get there in a few moments, but just just uh when we were talking but just just uh when we were talking but just just uh when we were talking about baptism shirts, you said a phrase, about baptism shirts, you said a phrase, about baptism shirts, you said a phrase, you said designing for the moment. you said designing for the moment. you said designing for the moment. You're referring to the baptism shirts You're referring to the baptism shirts You're referring to the baptism shirts and and and acknowledging that like, and and and acknowledging that like, and and and acknowledging that like, okay, this moment's going to be okay, this moment's going to be okay, this moment's going to be photographed. And so like bigger type is photographed. And so like bigger type is photographed. And so like bigger type is going to is going to accomplish the going to is going to accomplish the going to is going to accomplish the desired goal. It's going to tell the desired goal. It's going to tell the desired goal. It's going to tell the story better than some small intricate story better than some small intricate story better than some small intricate um albeit equally lovely shirt um but um albeit equally lovely shirt um but um albeit equally lovely shirt um but it's it's going to accomplish the goal it's it's going to accomplish the goal it's it's going to accomplish the goal um more effectively. I'm curious about um more effectively. I'm curious about um more effectively. I'm curious about the street wear style. So now we're the street wear style. So now we're the street wear style. So now we're talking about a church merch store.

talking about a church merch store. talking about a church merch store. You're leaning into um street wear type You're leaning into um street wear type You're leaning into um street wear type designs and I'm curious about as a designs and I'm curious about as a designs and I'm curious about as a designer how you thread the needle of designer how you thread the needle of designer how you thread the needle of not just designing a shirt that I could not just designing a shirt that I could not just designing a shirt that I could look at from a distance and be like, "Oh look at from a distance and be like, "Oh look at from a distance and be like, "Oh yeah, that's a hip shirt." like looks yeah, that's a hip shirt." like looks yeah, that's a hip shirt." like looks cool, but in the context of designing cool, but in the context of designing cool, but in the context of designing for churches, designing a shirt that for churches, designing a shirt that for churches, designing a shirt that yeah looks cool, but also um in and of yeah looks cool, but also um in and of yeah looks cool, but also um in and of itself communicates a clear message itself communicates a clear message itself communicates a clear message without just putting in bold font on the without just putting in bold font on the without just putting in bold font on the front, Jesus loves you. He's the one front, Jesus loves you. He's the one front, Jesus loves you. He's the one true Lord and Savior of the world. You true Lord and Savior of the world. You true Lord and Savior of the world. You know what I'm saying? So, like, how do know what I'm saying? So, like, how do know what I'm saying? So, like, how do you communicate a clear message with a you communicate a clear message with a you communicate a clear message with a shirt while also threading the needle shirt while also threading the needle shirt while also threading the needle of, yeah, this is a this is an of, yeah, this is a this is an of, yeah, this is a this is an aesthetically pleasing design that you aesthetically pleasing design that you aesthetically pleasing design that you could, you know, in theory pick up at at could, you know, in theory pick up at at could, you know, in theory pick up at at any, you know, trendy store of the any, you know, trendy store of the any, you know, trendy store of the moment. moment. moment. >> Yeah. Well, I think there's kind of two >> Yeah. Well, I think there's kind of two >> Yeah. Well, I think there's kind of two sides of it. There's the artistic side, sides of it. There's the artistic side, sides of it. There's the artistic side, um, and like following your instincts um, and like following your instincts um, and like following your instincts for what's really appropriate for this for what's really appropriate for this for what's really appropriate for this moment, and then there's kind of the moment, and then there's kind of the moment, and then there's kind of the research side for like this church in research side for like this church in research side for like this church in this state and this, you know, like this this state and this, you know, like this this state and this, you know, like this type of community. What are they gonna type of community. What are they gonna type of community. What are they gonna like? I have kind of a rule of thumb like? I have kind of a rule of thumb like? I have kind of a rule of thumb where like when I'm designing for where like when I'm designing for where like when I'm designing for somebody, I like to be maybe two steps somebody, I like to be maybe two steps somebody, I like to be maybe two steps cooler than they are, right? I don't cooler than they are, right? I don't cooler than they are, right? I don't want to give them exactly what they want want to give them exactly what they want want to give them exactly what they want because that's there's no creativity, because that's there's no creativity, because that's there's no creativity, there's no spark, there's no wonder there's no spark, there's no wonder there's no spark, there's no wonder there, but I don't want to be 10 steps there, but I don't want to be 10 steps there, but I don't want to be 10 steps ahead either. I don't want to make ahead either. I don't want to make ahead either. I don't want to make something that's like so off on guard something that's like so off on guard something that's like so off on guard that nobody's going to wear it. They that nobody's going to wear it. They that nobody's going to wear it. They respect me as an artist, but that respect me as an artist, but that respect me as an artist, but that thing's going in the closet. So, it's, thing's going in the closet. So, it's, thing's going in the closet. So, it's, you know, and a lot of that is just you know, and a lot of that is just you know, and a lot of that is just discretion. it's not a science, but just discretion. it's not a science, but just discretion. it's not a science, but just being a little bit more interesting than being a little bit more interesting than being a little bit more interesting than they might have expected, but not not they might have expected, but not not they might have expected, but not not too far, not alienating, not making

too far, not alienating, not making too far, not alienating, not making something that's just a, you know, just something that's just a, you know, just something that's just a, you know, just passion project for me. Um, and then the passion project for me. Um, and then the passion project for me. Um, and then the other side is like is kind of boots on other side is like is kind of boots on other side is like is kind of boots on the ground making the art. I that's why the ground making the art. I that's why the ground making the art. I that's why I love to work with text. Not only so I love to work with text. Not only so I love to work with text. Not only so that can be the only like even if that's that can be the only like even if that's that can be the only like even if that's not the main image, right, or like the not the main image, right, or like the not the main image, right, or like the first thing people see, that really first thing people see, that really first thing people see, that really steers the tone of the shirt. I almost steers the tone of the shirt. I almost steers the tone of the shirt. I almost hate to use the word vibe because it's hate to use the word vibe because it's hate to use the word vibe because it's so vague, but like if I'm making a shirt so vague, but like if I'm making a shirt so vague, but like if I'm making a shirt where the like the message is that I where the like the message is that I where the like the message is that I found joy in Jesus Christ, that's going found joy in Jesus Christ, that's going found joy in Jesus Christ, that's going to have like all the icon, the color to have like all the icon, the color to have like all the icon, the color choices, um just like the the placement choices, um just like the the placement choices, um just like the the placement even. I want that shirt to feel joyful even. I want that shirt to feel joyful even. I want that shirt to feel joyful and a fun and a fun and a fun >> summery like exciting vibe. Whereas if >> summery like exciting vibe. Whereas if >> summery like exciting vibe. Whereas if the the verse is something about like the the verse is something about like the the verse is something about like he's where I go for peace, it's going to he's where I go for peace, it's going to he's where I go for peace, it's going to be smaller. It's going to be quieter. be smaller. It's going to be quieter. be smaller. It's going to be quieter. Um, and that's not just about the text, Um, and that's not just about the text, Um, and that's not just about the text, but the whole design is going to try to but the whole design is going to try to but the whole design is going to try to reflect the message that was at the the reflect the message that was at the the reflect the message that was at the the start. Um, so for me, I like I really start. Um, so for me, I like I really start. Um, so for me, I like I really want the message to be informing the want the message to be informing the want the message to be informing the design and it's very hard to do this design and it's very hard to do this design and it's very hard to do this sometimes, but just you do have to kind sometimes, but just you do have to kind sometimes, but just you do have to kind of reject trends in some ways. In some of reject trends in some ways. In some of reject trends in some ways. In some ways, lean into it because you want to ways, lean into it because you want to ways, lean into it because you want to be cool, you want to be modern, you want be cool, you want to be modern, you want be cool, you want to be modern, you want to be like part of the conversation, but to be like part of the conversation, but to be like part of the conversation, but like, you know, there's lots of like like, you know, there's lots of like like, you know, there's lots of like hardcore like grunge metal imagery and I hardcore like grunge metal imagery and I hardcore like grunge metal imagery and I like that. I like metal bands. Those are like that. I like metal bands. Those are like that. I like metal bands. Those are my shirts. But like I don't like my shirts. But like I don't like my shirts. But like I don't like borrowing other styles for a shirt that borrowing other styles for a shirt that borrowing other styles for a shirt that doesn't where that imagery doesn't doesn't where that imagery doesn't doesn't where that imagery doesn't belong. I think that like a Christian belong. I think that like a Christian belong. I think that like a Christian message is one of life. Like there's message is one of life. Like there's message is one of life. Like there's serious aspects, but it's one of life serious aspects, but it's one of life serious aspects, but it's one of life and freshness and newness and recovery.

and freshness and newness and recovery. and freshness and newness and recovery. Like I would never want to borrow Like I would never want to borrow Like I would never want to borrow negative or or like shouty or oppressive negative or or like shouty or oppressive negative or or like shouty or oppressive imagery because that just doesn't match imagery because that just doesn't match imagery because that just doesn't match thematically and it's not going to be thematically and it's not going to be thematically and it's not going to be someone's favorite shirt for long, even someone's favorite shirt for long, even someone's favorite shirt for long, even if it's very right now. um artistically. if it's very right now. um artistically. if it's very right now. um artistically. >> Okay, so at this point we've got the >> Okay, so at this point we've got the >> Okay, so at this point we've got the shirt designed. Maybe we got a few shirt designed. Maybe we got a few shirt designed. Maybe we got a few different options. We've narrowed in different options. We've narrowed in different options. We've narrowed in what we like. We've got the purpose. It what we like. We've got the purpose. It what we like. We've got the purpose. It has been approved. Now we're getting has been approved. Now we're getting has been approved. Now we're getting into the printing side of things. Um into the printing side of things. Um into the printing side of things. Um Alex used the term soft goods. This is a Alex used the term soft goods. This is a Alex used the term soft goods. This is a new term for me. Can you uh define that new term for me. Can you uh define that new term for me. Can you uh define that for myself and presumably at least one for myself and presumably at least one for myself and presumably at least one other person listening? [laughter] other person listening? [laughter] other person listening? [laughter] >> For sure. Uh this is a soft good. You're >> For sure. Uh this is a soft good. You're >> For sure. Uh this is a soft good. You're wearing a soft good. Soft good just wearing a soft good. Soft good just wearing a soft good. Soft good just means the material, the cut, the style. means the material, the cut, the style. means the material, the cut, the style. So, when you say, "I want a boxy So, when you say, "I want a boxy So, when you say, "I want a boxy champion sweatshirt in athletic gray," champion sweatshirt in athletic gray," champion sweatshirt in athletic gray," you're describing the soft good. That's you're describing the soft good. That's you're describing the soft good. That's the item we're printing on. the item we're printing on. the item we're printing on. >> Is there a hard good >> Is there a hard good >> Is there a hard good [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> like doorork knobs or machetes? I think >> like doorork knobs or machetes? I think >> like doorork knobs or machetes? I think that's a different like that's a different like that's a different like >> The reason I ask is cuz like I'm >> The reason I ask is cuz like I'm >> The reason I ask is cuz like I'm familiar with the phrase like soft skill familiar with the phrase like soft skill familiar with the phrase like soft skill and hard skill. Like there's one and the and hard skill. Like there's one and the and hard skill. Like there's one and the other. So, when I heard soft good, I was other. So, when I heard soft good, I was other. So, when I heard soft good, I was like, "So, is the hard good like the like, "So, is the hard good like the like, "So, is the hard good like the design in illustrator and the soft good design in illustrator and the soft good design in illustrator and the soft good is like the actual All right, great.

is like the actual All right, great. is like the actual All right, great. Thanks for that. Um, we're going to cut Thanks for that. Um, we're going to cut Thanks for that. Um, we're going to cut that part out of the podcast probably, that part out of the podcast probably, that part out of the podcast probably, but but but >> soft good is made out of cotton. >> soft good is made out of cotton. >> soft good is made out of cotton. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, like, um, okay, in this discussion, >> So, like, um, okay, in this discussion, >> So, like, um, okay, in this discussion, we've kind of got the design done and we've kind of got the design done and we've kind of got the design done and now I'm saying, let's pick the shirt. now I'm saying, let's pick the shirt. now I'm saying, let's pick the shirt. Should it happen in the opposite Should it happen in the opposite Should it happen in the opposite sequence? sequence? sequence? >> Well, they kind of they're so handinand >> Well, they kind of they're so handinand >> Well, they kind of they're so handinand that it's hard to know which is the cart that it's hard to know which is the cart that it's hard to know which is the cart and which is the horse. But uh the and which is the horse. But uh the and which is the horse. But uh the picking the soft good the material is picking the soft good the material is picking the soft good the material is like between you and me and anyone who's like between you and me and anyone who's like between you and me and anyone who's listening like that might be more listening like that might be more listening like that might be more important than the design really. important than the design really. important than the design really. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> getting for just for wearability people >> getting for just for wearability people >> getting for just for wearability people will pick a shirt that is comfortable will pick a shirt that is comfortable will pick a shirt that is comfortable and that they think fits them well or and that they think fits them well or and that they think fits them well or that they think like expresses like hey that they think like expresses like hey that they think like expresses like hey I get what's going on in fashion right I get what's going on in fashion right I get what's going on in fashion right now. I think more than even what's now. I think more than even what's now. I think more than even what's printed on it. Like you want them both printed on it. Like you want them both printed on it. Like you want them both to match. You want them both to be tens to match. You want them both to be tens to match. You want them both to be tens out of tens. like a shirt that's clingy out of tens. like a shirt that's clingy out of tens. like a shirt that's clingy that makes me feel fat or like it just that makes me feel fat or like it just that makes me feel fat or like it just looks old. Like looks old. Like looks old. Like >> it can have the coolest design in the >> it can have the coolest design in the >> it can have the coolest design in the world. That's never getting any that's world. That's never getting any that's world. That's never getting any that's not getting in the cycle. not getting in the cycle. not getting in the cycle. >> Um so I would prefer that churches be >> Um so I would prefer that churches be >> Um so I would prefer that churches be thinking about like hey this is for thinking about like hey this is for thinking about like hey this is for youth. We want to do what's cool right youth. We want to do what's cool right youth. We want to do what's cool right now or opposite end this is for the now or opposite end this is for the now or opposite end this is for the men's retreat. We want it to be like men's retreat. We want it to be like men's retreat. We want it to be like golf polos. Um because I'll really golf polos. Um because I'll really golf polos. Um because I'll really respond with my design to what you've respond with my design to what you've respond with my design to what you've selected for soft goods. That really selected for soft goods. That really selected for soft goods. That really steers the ship.

steers the ship. steers the ship. >> Okay. Okay, so you're working with me. I >> Okay. Okay, so you're working with me. I >> Okay. Okay, so you're working with me. I learned about soft goods 30 seconds ago. learned about soft goods 30 seconds ago. learned about soft goods 30 seconds ago. So I am not familiar with the language, So I am not familiar with the language, So I am not familiar with the language, the verbiage, you know, oh, GSM this, the verbiage, you know, oh, GSM this, the verbiage, you know, oh, GSM this, GSM that. I I don't know any of these GSM that. I I don't know any of these GSM that. I I don't know any of these things. How do I make the decisions on things. How do I make the decisions on things. How do I make the decisions on these soft goods? I see 20 different these soft goods? I see 20 different these soft goods? I see 20 different brands. I see all these different cuts, brands. I see all these different cuts, brands. I see all these different cuts, these different, you know, thread count, these different, you know, thread count, these different, you know, thread count, thread type, I don't know. Steer me in thread type, I don't know. Steer me in thread type, I don't know. Steer me in the right direction. the right direction. the right direction. >> Yeah, it's good to pick. And I I'll >> Yeah, it's good to pick. And I I'll >> Yeah, it's good to pick. And I I'll deliver this to clients if they're deliver this to clients if they're deliver this to clients if they're totally out in the wind. they have no totally out in the wind. they have no totally out in the wind. they have no starting point. Uh there's just a couple starting point. Uh there's just a couple starting point. Uh there's just a couple brands that I like to start with. It's brands that I like to start with. It's brands that I like to start with. It's not the only thing they can use. Uh I not the only thing they can use. Uh I not the only thing they can use. Uh I recommend stuff like AS Color, Comfort recommend stuff like AS Color, Comfort recommend stuff like AS Color, Comfort Colors. Um there's a group called LA Colors. Um there's a group called LA Colors. Um there's a group called LA Apparel that's kind of replacing the old Apparel that's kind of replacing the old Apparel that's kind of replacing the old American Apparel for better or worse. Um American Apparel for better or worse. Um American Apparel for better or worse. Um and those like once you have this once and those like once you have this once and those like once you have this once you have kind of a vendor, just click you have kind of a vendor, just click you have kind of a vendor, just click through what looks cool. They all have through what looks cool. They all have through what looks cool. They all have tons of pictures on different models at tons of pictures on different models at tons of pictures on different models at all sizes. like uh that's where you can all sizes. like uh that's where you can all sizes. like uh that's where you can start exploring like okay that's start exploring like okay that's start exploring like okay that's something I would actually wear that something I would actually wear that something I would actually wear that hoodie and that cut. Um and then hoodie and that cut. Um and then hoodie and that cut. Um and then honestly I like to pull right from those honestly I like to pull right from those honestly I like to pull right from those websites. That's what I make my mock-ups websites. That's what I make my mock-ups websites. That's what I make my mock-ups on like so that there's no confusion. I on like so that there's no confusion. I on like so that there's no confusion. I can really get the sizing of the print can really get the sizing of the print can really get the sizing of the print right like for what you're actually right like for what you're actually right like for what you're actually going to buy. Um but then also obviously going to buy. Um but then also obviously going to buy. Um but then also obviously like price is going to is going to be a like price is going to is going to be a like price is going to is going to be a big factor there too. There's tons of big factor there too. There's tons of big factor there too. There's tons of options.

options. options. >> So you mentioned LA apparel. What was >> So you mentioned LA apparel. What was >> So you mentioned LA apparel. What was the other one? the other one? the other one? >> AS colors. AS colors and then comfort >> AS colors. AS colors and then comfort >> AS colors. AS colors and then comfort colors. I think what I'm wearing is a colors. I think what I'm wearing is a colors. I think what I'm wearing is a comfort color and I picked it because I comfort color and I picked it because I comfort color and I picked it because I love it. love it. love it. >> Okay, so comfort color is the name of >> Okay, so comfort color is the name of >> Okay, so comfort color is the name of the brand. AS color is the name of the the brand. AS color is the name of the the brand. AS color is the name of the Okay, great. So, there's three and then Okay, great. So, there's three and then Okay, great. So, there's three and then all three of them have blanks that come all three of them have blanks that come all three of them have blanks that come in all different types of like cuts. And in all different types of like cuts. And in all different types of like cuts. And what would you say like are some of the what would you say like are some of the what would you say like are some of the more popular that you find yourself like more popular that you find yourself like more popular that you find yourself like churches are requesting more often than churches are requesting more often than churches are requesting more often than others? others? others? >> Right now, Dreor is heavy fabric, boxy >> Right now, Dreor is heavy fabric, boxy >> Right now, Dreor is heavy fabric, boxy cut. Uh, it doesn't look great on cut. Uh, it doesn't look great on cut. Uh, it doesn't look great on everyone, but that's the best for a everyone, but that's the best for a everyone, but that's the best for a photo shoot. It's what people buy. photo shoot. It's what people buy. photo shoot. It's what people buy. >> Heavy fabric boxy cut. That's what I'm >> Heavy fabric boxy cut. That's what I'm >> Heavy fabric boxy cut. That's what I'm wearing right now. wearing right now. wearing right now. >> You do. You do know something about a >> You do. You do know something about a >> You do. You do know something about a soft This [laughter] soft This [laughter] soft This [laughter] shirt is so I love It is so thick. It's shirt is so I love It is so thick. It's shirt is so I love It is so thick. It's like like It's like wearing cardboard like like It's like wearing cardboard like like It's like wearing cardboard and it holds its shape. I don't want I and it holds its shape. I don't want I and it holds its shape. I don't want I don't want a shirt that drapes. Look, if don't want a shirt that drapes. Look, if don't want a shirt that drapes. Look, if I had giant shoulders, maybe I'd get I had giant shoulders, maybe I'd get I had giant shoulders, maybe I'd get something that drapes, but I don't. So, something that drapes, but I don't. So, something that drapes, but I don't. So, I need something that's a little I need something that's a little I need something that's a little starchy. Okay. Hold it shape. Yes. starchy. Okay. Hold it shape. Yes. starchy. Okay. Hold it shape. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then for uh like would this matter And then for uh like would this matter And then for uh like would this matter for like baptism like the the type of for like baptism like the the type of for like baptism like the the type of fabric like we talked about like you fabric like we talked about like you fabric like we talked about like you know obviously it's getting soaked so know obviously it's getting soaked so know obviously it's getting soaked so it's going to you know like hug it's going to you know like hug it's going to you know like hug someone's form once they get dunked.

someone's form once they get dunked. someone's form once they get dunked. Like does that matter at all for like Like does that matter at all for like Like does that matter at all for like shirt type? Yeah, a a slightly thicker shirt type? Yeah, a a slightly thicker shirt type? Yeah, a a slightly thicker uh weight shirt. Um you want to go dark uh weight shirt. Um you want to go dark uh weight shirt. Um you want to go dark obviously, but something thicker with a obviously, but something thicker with a obviously, but something thicker with a little more structure will kind of little more structure will kind of little more structure will kind of resist that super form fitting um resist that super form fitting um resist that super form fitting um phenomena that like is going to happen a phenomena that like is going to happen a phenomena that like is going to happen a little bit either way, but yeah, a little bit either way, but yeah, a little bit either way, but yeah, a thicker material will resist that a bit. thicker material will resist that a bit. thicker material will resist that a bit. >> Okay, good stuff. Any other final things >> Okay, good stuff. Any other final things >> Okay, good stuff. Any other final things that you wanted to ask about the process that you wanted to ask about the process that you wanted to ask about the process at this point? Um the printing is done, at this point? Um the printing is done, at this point? Um the printing is done, it's shipped, you have it, you put it it's shipped, you have it, you put it it's shipped, you have it, you put it on, on, on, >> wash your clothes on delicate cycle, >> wash your clothes on delicate cycle, >> wash your clothes on delicate cycle, people, all right? Otherwise, it will people, all right? Otherwise, it will people, all right? Otherwise, it will shrink. Hang dry. shrink. Hang dry. shrink. Hang dry. >> Hang to dry. >> Hang to dry. >> Hang to dry. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> People are getting the uh the garment >> People are getting the uh the garment >> People are getting the uh the garment care um tips and tricks that they didn't care um tips and tricks that they didn't care um tips and tricks that they didn't know that they were ever going to get know that they were ever going to get know that they were ever going to get from this show, but they're getting it from this show, but they're getting it from this show, but they're getting it today. today. today. >> I I look, I'm going to share this. I'm >> I I look, I'm going to share this. I'm >> I I look, I'm going to share this. I'm going to be honest. All right. I do not going to be honest. All right. I do not going to be honest. All right. I do not wash a lot of my clothes very often. I wash a lot of my clothes very often. I wash a lot of my clothes very often. I am single use on, of course, underwear am single use on, of course, underwear am single use on, of course, underwear and socks. Multiple usually multiple and socks. Multiple usually multiple and socks. Multiple usually multiple pairs of socks in a day. Usually more pairs of socks in a day. Usually more pairs of socks in a day. Usually more than one. Like if I work out, those than one. Like if I work out, those than one. Like if I work out, those socks are done. I'm sorry. I can't like socks are done. I'm sorry. I can't like socks are done. I'm sorry. I can't like use them. single literally single use.

use them. single literally single use. use them. single literally single use. >> But like um like I have a pair of pants >> But like um like I have a pair of pants >> But like um like I have a pair of pants I think I've worn they're like trousers. I think I've worn they're like trousers. I think I've worn they're like trousers. I think I've worn them like 30 times and I think I've worn them like 30 times and I think I've worn them like 30 times and I haven't washed them yet because like I haven't washed them yet because like I haven't washed them yet because like one I I'm not a sweater. I I don't sweat one I I'm not a sweater. I I don't sweat one I I'm not a sweater. I I don't sweat very often. But two um I saw this very often. But two um I saw this very often. But two um I saw this amazing piece of garment care that came amazing piece of garment care that came amazing piece of garment care that came with I think clothing from that same with I think clothing from that same with I think clothing from that same brand. It said wash your clothes less, brand. It said wash your clothes less, brand. It said wash your clothes less, wash yourself more. And I was like wash yourself more. And I was like wash yourself more. And I was like that's a [laughter] bar. Oh, it's a bar. that's a [laughter] bar. Oh, it's a bar. that's a [laughter] bar. Oh, it's a bar. And I look these these trousers fit And I look these these trousers fit And I look these these trousers fit perfectly. I'm a bit afraid perfectly. I'm a bit afraid perfectly. I'm a bit afraid >> because like they already have a pleat. >> because like they already have a pleat. >> because like they already have a pleat. Where does the pleat go once it gets Where does the pleat go once it gets Where does the pleat go once it gets >> replete them? >> replete them? >> replete them? >> Oh, I I [laughter] don't know how to do >> Oh, I I [laughter] don't know how to do >> Oh, I I [laughter] don't know how to do that. that. that. >> How How could one reple? That's for the >> How How could one reple? That's for the >> How How could one reple? That's for the next episode. Carl, we appreciate your next episode. Carl, we appreciate your next episode. Carl, we appreciate your time. Can you tell us a little bit about time. Can you tell us a little bit about time. Can you tell us a little bit about where to find you if people want to see where to find you if people want to see where to find you if people want to see all the creative work that you're that all the creative work that you're that all the creative work that you're that you're doing for churches and get a you're doing for churches and get a you're doing for churches and get a little inspiration themselves for the little inspiration themselves for the little inspiration themselves for the Pinterest boards they'll build for their Pinterest boards they'll build for their Pinterest boards they'll build for their next projects? next projects? next projects? >> Yeah. Well, for a freelance designer, I >> Yeah. Well, for a freelance designer, I >> Yeah. Well, for a freelance designer, I work surprisingly incognito. So, really work surprisingly incognito. So, really work surprisingly incognito. So, really the best place to find me is Instagram. the best place to find me is Instagram. the best place to find me is Instagram. It's my middle name and last name, It's my middle name and last name, It's my middle name and last name, Sigvar Nelson. Maybe we can throw that Sigvar Nelson. Maybe we can throw that Sigvar Nelson. Maybe we can throw that up in text. Kind of a tough Swedish up in text. Kind of a tough Swedish up in text. Kind of a tough Swedish spelling.

spelling. spelling. >> Link in the description. >> Link in the description. >> Link in the description. >> But yeah, that's the best place to see >> But yeah, that's the best place to see >> But yeah, that's the best place to see my stuff. Send me a DM. I love talking my stuff. Send me a DM. I love talking my stuff. Send me a DM. I love talking design. Um, design. Um, design. Um, >> yeah, that's my number one spot. >> yeah, that's my number one spot. >> yeah, that's my number one spot. >> Good stuff. Well, we appreciate you >> Good stuff. Well, we appreciate you >> Good stuff. Well, we appreciate you making the time. And remember everyone, making the time. And remember everyone, making the time. And remember everyone, wash your clothes less, wash yourself wash your clothes less, wash yourself wash your clothes less, wash yourself more. Words of wisdom to live by. Thanks more. Words of wisdom to live by. Thanks more. Words of wisdom to live by. Thanks as always for your time, attention, and as always for your time, attention, and as always for your time, attention, and trust. And we're going to be taking off trust. And we're going to be taking off trust. And we're going to be taking off the next couple of weeks as it is the the next couple of weeks as it is the the next couple of weeks as it is the holiday season. We will see you in 2026. holiday season. We will see you in 2026. holiday season. We will see you in 2026. Talk then. The colors in The colors in D. How can I bring D. How can I bring D. How can I bring [music] one step closer? one step closer? [music] I am trying many times, waiting I am trying many times, waiting [singing and music] for you. [singing and music] for you. [singing and music] for you. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. >> [singing and music] >> [singing and music] >> [singing and music] >> I have loved you for a thous. >> I have loved you for a thous. >> I have loved you for a thous. >> This is the song that my daughter keeps >> This is the song that my daughter keeps >> This is the song that my daughter keeps singing in the house. Don't know how she singing in the house. Don't know how she singing in the house. Don't know how she found it.

found it. found it. It's all that we're singing It's all that we're singing It's all that we're singing >> [music]